From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Oct 1 03:20:30 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2022 11:19:49 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <39483BF5-CAE9-4D81-93E0-3D409481D219@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4869885482232224193==" --===============4869885482232224193== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.stirlingcryogenics.eu/ These machines are still made and indeed are very cool. ;-) Tom On Sat, Oct 1, 2022 at 4:54 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Sep 30, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> ... > > > > Note that there are (at least) _two_ Philips museums: the "Stichting tot > > Behoud van Historische Philips Producten" (Foundation for the > Preservation > > of Historic Philips Products) and the Philips Museum. Their websites are > > https://www.sbhp.nl/ and https://www.philips-museum.com/. Both are in > > Eindhoven, as is much of the interesting bits of Philips itself. > > > > The former appears to be volunteer collectors of mainly analogue-era > Philips > > gear and I can almost smell the chain-smoked roll-ups just from the > photos, > > whereas the latter looks rather more corporate. > > It's hard to see what the significance of the latter is, if any. The > website has a "collection" tab that doesn't say anything about a > collection. The "eyecatchers" tab speaks of an exhibit of Philips > advertising posters. Ok, nice, but what does that have to do with the > technology and products and enormous R&D contribution of the company? > > The former at least shows something about the collection, a set of nice > photos of stuff. That and a hint that there is more -- but no description > of what that might be. > > I keep wondering if anything whatsoever about the PR8000 has been > preserved anywhere. I have a marketing brochure that I scanned and sent to > Bitsavers, plus some notes about the parts of the instruction set that show > up in a program of mine. But I've never seen anything else, even finding > any mention of the machine is nearly impossible. > > I still regret I didn't save the Stirling cryogenic machine brochures I > had as a teenager -- neat machines Philips built for easily and cheaply > making lab quantities of liquid nitrogen and even liquid helium. Some were > backpack size, apparently for airborne applications. I also had a brochure > of their neutron generator tube, which is a pretty wild device. > > paul > > > --===============4869885482232224193==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Oct 1 17:41:30 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2022 13:40:50 -0400 Message-ID: <7D81C47D-4FA7-4C8C-8F37-1470FA938206@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6135230917214015680==" --===============6135230917214015680== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 30, 2022, at 11:19 PM, Tom Hunter wrote: >=20 > https://www.stirlingcryogenics.eu/ >=20 > These machines are still made and indeed are very cool. ;-) So to speak! =20 I didn't see their liquid helium machine. I remember one installed at the TU= Eindhoven physics department; it consisted of a pair of two-stage Stirling m= achines (which by themselves will liquify hydrogen or neon, i.e., they go dow= n to about 20 K) plus a bunch of auxiliary equipment. The whole setup took m= aybe a 15 foot square room. The website doesn't show any of the compact machines I remember seeing descri= bed. A bunch of those had 400 Hz power, indicating they were meant for airbo= rne use. One was a little lab bench machine, a box perhaps the size of an ol= d style desktop PC, lying flat, with a "cold finger" sticking out of the box. paul --===============6135230917214015680==-- From tony@tonyjones.com Sat Oct 1 22:38:59 2022 From: Tony Jones To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Animatics motion controllers Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2022 15:38:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3255070703641995347==" --===============3255070703641995347== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A bit off topic but I'm curious if anyone has any technical information on Animatics motion controllers. Animatics was based in (Santa Clara) in the 1990s. They were bought by Moog sometime around 2000 and all the old info was thrown out. A support engineer working for Moog (who had worked for Animatics before the buyout) provided a bunch of DOS utilities and info on the RS232 programming that he found on a backup, but this is all the info that exists. Schematics for the hardware (CPU is a Phillips SCC68070 with a MC68881 math coprocessor), firmware code and any other technical info would be great. Wayback machine link: http://web.archive.org/web/19990218104405/http://www.animatics.com/5000list.h= tm eBay link to an actual controller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/124030784795 --===============3255070703641995347==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sun Oct 2 09:58:38 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] bubble memory stable? Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 04:58:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2921019749716677252==" --===============2921019749716677252== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How "stable" is bubble memory, over decades? There is a Sharp PC-5000 that may be available, I believe from 1983-1985 era, which is said to have bubble memory. But the owner can't find a power cable, to verify if anything still works. I have older systems with ICs that are still working OK, but I was wondering thoughts on any risk associated with bubble memory? (likelihood of not working at all, or being damaged in long distance shipping) Actually another thought, can any "normal" ICs be used to replace/substitute the bubble memory? Regards, Steve --===============2921019749716677252==-- From osi.superboard@gmail.com Sun Oct 2 11:40:05 2022 From: "osi.superboard" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: bubble memory stable? Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 12:38:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1051827102722407717==" --===============1051827102722407717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve, the Sharp PC-5000 bubble memory is very reliable. It`s working flawless on two machines I have. Bubble memory was used as well in some significant older machines, like the Texas instruments Silent Terminals (around 77 I guess). And last time I turned on the terminal, it worked perfectly still showing text in memory, entered decades ago. So no worry. Thomas Am 02.10.2022 um 10:58 schrieb Steve Lewis via cctalk: > How "stable" is bubble memory, over decades? > > There is a Sharp PC-5000 that may be available, I believe from 1983-1985 > era, which is said to have bubble memory. But the owner can't find a power > cable, to verify if anything still works. > > I have older systems with ICs that are still working OK, but I was > wondering thoughts on any risk associated with bubble memory? (likelihood > of not working at all, or being damaged in long distance shipping) > > Actually another thought, can any "normal" ICs be used to > replace/substitute the bubble memory? > > Regards, > Steve --===============1051827102722407717==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Sun Oct 2 14:05:35 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 10:05:07 -0400 Message-ID: <05dc01d8d667$fab39bc0$f01ad340$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <7d6d668f-3619-37fb-464a-736dc23926cc@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0325982102280614531==" --===============0325982102280614531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For anyone that might be interested, I was able to get some 74L85s. After in= stalling them (and chasing down a misbehaving 7400) I was rewarded with a fully functional = SSM SB-1. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2022 3:22 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) On 9/22/22 09:55, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > On 2022/09/19 9:51 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2022-09-19 10:18 p.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >>> There are a few US based Ebay sellers of the 74L85. >>> >>> Tom >> But most ebay sellers, from the USA seem to sell a item for $6.00 and >> $75 shipping to Canada. China $2 and $3 shipping. With Covid all=20 >> shipping is several weeks. >> Ben. >> > How many do you need? I have one or more of 74LS85, 74C85, 74HC85, and=20 > 7485... The ICs that you've listed as having (74LS85, 74C85, 74HC85, and 7485) aren't what the OP needs. The 74L85 is a different animal with a diffe= rent pinout from the chips you've listed. --Chuck --=20 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============0325982102280614531==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sun Oct 2 14:38:41 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 22:38:15 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7D81C47D-4FA7-4C8C-8F37-1470FA938206@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0336348016702555902==" --===============0336348016702555902== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out this link for a detailed description of the "Stirling Cycle" in particular the YouTube video at the bottom of the article is very well done and shows a small machine in operation: https://www.stirlingcryogenics.eu/en/the-stirling-cycle Tom On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 1:41 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Sep 30, 2022, at 11:19 PM, Tom Hunter wrote: > > > > https://www.stirlingcryogenics.eu/ > > > > These machines are still made and indeed are very cool. ;-) > > So to speak! > > I didn't see their liquid helium machine. I remember one installed at the > TU Eindhoven physics department; it consisted of a pair of two-stage > Stirling machines (which by themselves will liquify hydrogen or neon, i.e., > they go down to about 20 K) plus a bunch of auxiliary equipment. The whole > setup took maybe a 15 foot square room. > > The website doesn't show any of the compact machines I remember seeing > described. A bunch of those had 400 Hz power, indicating they were meant > for airborne use. One was a little lab bench machine, a box perhaps the > size of an old style desktop PC, lying flat, with a "cold finger" sticking > out of the box. > > paul > > --===============0336348016702555902==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun Oct 2 16:03:07 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: bubble memory stable? Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 09:02:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3755500666713013889==" --===============3755500666713013889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > How "stable" is bubble memory, over decades? >=20 > There is a Sharp PC-5000 that may be available, I believe from 1983-1985 > era, which is said to have bubble memory. But the owner can't find a power > cable, to verify if anything still works. >=20 > I have older systems with ICs that are still working OK, but I was > wondering thoughts on any risk associated with bubble memory? (likelihood > of not working at all, or being damaged in long distance shipping) >=20 > Actually another thought, can any "normal" ICs be used to > replace/substitute the bubble memory? Bubble memory uses magnetic domains, so to a first approximation it's as "stable" as any other magnetic storage system. These domains tend to be relatively large by modern standards. The modules are invariably magnetically shielded in heavy coverings, and are shockproof. If it works it all, it probably works fine. I have a Texas Instruments Silent 700 Model 763 and so far no problems with storing and retrieving data on its bubble memory cards, even though this unit is well over 40 years old (here it is with my KIM-1 as a punch tape storage s= ystem: http://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/09/what-kim-1-really-needs-is-bubble.html ). There are no modern drop-in equivalents for bubble memory modules specificall= y. Bubble memory is inherently serial and requires additional drive circuitry. However, that doesn't mean someone couldn't make a unit that emulates the entire system and looks like a bubble memory storage device, naturally, just like any other disk emulator. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Do you think I could buy back my introduction to you? -- Groucho Marx ----= -- --===============3755500666713013889==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sun Oct 2 21:52:23 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: bubble memory stable? Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 17:51:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1629135893108856457==" --===============1629135893108856457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Second that. I've got a PC-5000 as well (wanna buy it?) and have never had any issues with the bubble paks. I suppose it's the computer as well but I was surprised by how relatively slow they are, considering that they're 'solid state'. An interesting project, replacing them with SD cards or similar; way beyond my skills though. I assume the manual is out there somewhere? m On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 7:39 AM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > the Sharp PC-5000 bubble memory is very reliable. It`s working flawless > on two machines I have. > > Bubble memory was used as well in some significant older machines, like > the Texas instruments Silent Terminals (around 77 I guess). And last > time I turned on the terminal, it worked perfectly still showing text in > memory, entered decades ago. So no worry. > > Thomas > > Am 02.10.2022 um 10:58 schrieb Steve Lewis via cctalk: > > How "stable" is bubble memory, over decades? > > > > There is a Sharp PC-5000 that may be available, I believe from 1983-1985 > > era, which is said to have bubble memory. But the owner can't find a > power > > cable, to verify if anything still works. > > > > I have older systems with ICs that are still working OK, but I was > > wondering thoughts on any risk associated with bubble memory? > (likelihood > > of not working at all, or being damaged in long distance shipping) > > > > Actually another thought, can any "normal" ICs be used to > > replace/substitute the bubble memory? > > > > Regards, > > Steve > --===============1629135893108856457==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sun Oct 2 22:00:28 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: bubble memory stable? Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 15:00:14 -0700 Message-ID: <82a6423e-b176-1842-35f0-50e77a41df5b@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0112567316983147021==" --===============0112567316983147021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I suppose it's the computer as well but I was surprised by how relatively > slow they are, considering that they're 'solid state'. It's largely the fact that bubble memory is inherently serial. You have to cycle through all the bits in a line until you get to the right location. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Living Daylights" ---------------------------= -- --===============0112567316983147021==-- From Wayne.Smith@warnerbros.com Mon Oct 3 20:36:53 2022 From: "Smith, Wayne" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2022 16:31:31 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2989190586346286849==" --===============2989190586346286849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Found an ad from 1984 - poor resolution but gives you an idea of what the str= ap looked like. -W https://photos.app.goo.gl/NG7kCK4qHyDgNKxb6=20 Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 16:25:59 +0100 From: Tony Duell Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" Does anyone have a Philips P2000C CP/M luggable with the carrying strap? I will be restoring such a machine in the near-ish future and mine is lacking= the strap. Clear photos of the end fittings that slot into the machine, the = dimensions of them, etc would be a great help in making something up. -tony --===============2989190586346286849==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Tue Oct 4 20:06:56 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Microangelo MA520... Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2022 16:06:30 -0400 Message-ID: <075901d8d82c$cb9acc70$62d06550$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <075901d8d82c$cb9acc70$62d06550$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2847957201003154374==" --===============2847957201003154374== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone familiar with this board (S-100 graphics adapter) knows that the schematics and documentation for it and the matching palette board are unavailable. I recently made a remarkable discovery on the web: https://store.gepower.com/mpps/parts/en/USD/search?sortParam=relevance &solrsortby=&inValidProductsList=&isSearchTypeAdv=false&recentSearch=&defaul tStore=parts&shipToAddrCodeHdnSearchPg=&soldToCompanyIdHdnSearchPg=&soldToCo mpanyCurrencyHdnSearchPg=&text=60628&CSRFToken=3b6088cc-11d1-42c2-8a92-acab8 1491e0a If you follow that link, you will see that GE Power seems to have them in stock in their parts store. My guess is that, at one time, they used them as part of a power plant control room. What I'm hoping is that they have one with the original documentation. Unfortunately, despite several enquiries, I have been unable to make any contact with anyone in GE Power that might offer me one for sale or otherwise help. So, I'm throwing it out to the general community of collectors. You need to be a certified GE Power customer, contractor or a GE Power employee to access the web store any further than that link. Anybody know someone who could sign and check? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============2847957201003154374==-- From frank@artair.com Tue Oct 4 20:42:33 2022 From: Frank To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microangelo MA520... Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2022 15:34:00 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <075901d8d82c$cb9acc70$62d06550$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3086171674569278657==" --===============3086171674569278657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Google found an 89 page user manual for it http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Unclassified/SCION%20MA-512%20Users%= 20Manual.pdf Frank > On Oct 4, 2022, at 15:14, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAnyone familiar with this board (S-100 graphics adapter) knows tha= t the > schematics and documentation for it and the matching palette board are > unavailable. I recently made a remarkable discovery on the web: >=20 >=20 >=20 > https://store.gepower.com/mpps/parts/en/USD/search?sortParam=3Drelevance > sortby=3D&inValidProductsList=3D&isSearchTypeAdv=3Dfalse&recentSearch=3D&de= faultStor > e=3Dparts&shipToAddrCodeHdnSearchPg=3D&soldToCompanyIdHdnSearchPg=3D&soldTo= Company > CurrencyHdnSearchPg=3D&text=3D60628&CSRFToken=3D3b6088cc-11d1-42c2-8a92-aca= b81491e > 0a> > &solrsortby=3D&inValidProductsList=3D&isSearchTypeAdv=3Dfalse&recentSearch= =3D&defaul > tStore=3Dparts&shipToAddrCodeHdnSearchPg=3D&soldToCompanyIdHdnSearchPg=3D&s= oldToCo > mpanyCurrencyHdnSearchPg=3D&text=3D60628&CSRFToken=3D3b6088cc-11d1-42c2-8a9= 2-acab8 > 1491e0a >=20 >=20 >=20 > If you follow that link, you will see that GE Power seems to have them in > stock in their parts store. My guess is that, at one time, they used them > as part of a power plant control room. What I'm hoping is that they have > one with the original documentation. Unfortunately, despite several > enquiries, I have been unable to make any contact with anyone in GE Power > that might offer me one for sale or otherwise help. So, I'm throwing it out > to the general community of collectors. You need to be a certified GE Power > customer, contractor or a GE Power employee to access the web store any > further than that link. Anybody know someone who could sign and check? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Bill Sudbrink >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com --===============3086171674569278657==-- From frank@artair.com Tue Oct 4 20:49:11 2022 From: Frank To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Microangelo MA520... Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2022 15:48:48 -0500 Message-ID: <018D7D92-D2B2-4EE9-9FDB-186B1BCB79EC@artair.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6749089938946376566==" --===============6749089938946376566== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops, sorry. That is for the SA 512 model, not the 520. The old thread I was = following jumped models midstream and I didn=E2=80=99t notice. Frank > On Oct 4, 2022, at 15:42, Frank wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Google found an 89 page user manual for it > http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Unclassified/SCION%20MA-512%20User= s%20Manual.pdf >=20 > Frank >=20 >>> On Oct 4, 2022, at 15:14, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFAnyone familiar with this board (S-100 graphics adapter) knows th= at the >> schematics and documentation for it and the matching palette board are >> unavailable. I recently made a remarkable discovery on the web: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> https://store.gepower.com/mpps/parts/en/USD/search?sortParam=3Drelevance >> > sortby=3D&inValidProductsList=3D&isSearchTypeAdv=3Dfalse&recentSearch=3D&d= efaultStor >> e=3Dparts&shipToAddrCodeHdnSearchPg=3D&soldToCompanyIdHdnSearchPg=3D&soldT= oCompany >> CurrencyHdnSearchPg=3D&text=3D60628&CSRFToken=3D3b6088cc-11d1-42c2-8a92-ac= ab81491e >> 0a> >> &solrsortby=3D&inValidProductsList=3D&isSearchTypeAdv=3Dfalse&recentSearch= =3D&defaul >> tStore=3Dparts&shipToAddrCodeHdnSearchPg=3D&soldToCompanyIdHdnSearchPg=3D&= soldToCo >> mpanyCurrencyHdnSearchPg=3D&text=3D60628&CSRFToken=3D3b6088cc-11d1-42c2-8a= 92-acab8 >> 1491e0a >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> If you follow that link, you will see that GE Power seems to have them in >> stock in their parts store. My guess is that, at one time, they used them >> as part of a power plant control room. What I'm hoping is that they have >> one with the original documentation. Unfortunately, despite several >> enquiries, I have been unable to make any contact with anyone in GE Power >> that might offer me one for sale or otherwise help. So, I'm throwing it o= ut >> to the general community of collectors. You need to be a certified GE Pow= er >> customer, contractor or a GE Power employee to access the web store any >> further than that link. Anybody know someone who could sign and check? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Bill Sudbrink >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com --===============6749089938946376566==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Wed Oct 5 21:15:00 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2022 21:14:49 +0000 Message-ID: <166500448992.2127592.7813901608233653968@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4931052858093921534==" --===============4931052858093921534== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I wanted to let the group know about a Bendix G-15 Restoration project I just= launched: https://headspinlabs.wordpress.com/bendix-g-15-restoration/ It's a pretty intimidating restoration (do no harm and all), so I'm reaching = out to related sources, such as this group, for any suggestions or interest. Thanks, Steve --===============4931052858093921534==-- From athornton@gmail.com Wed Oct 5 22:40:35 2022 From: Adam Thornton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] z9 (s390x) mainframe up for grabs in Melbourne, FL Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2022 15:40:13 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4496067245632185557==" --===============4496067245632185557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the "Mainframe Enthusiasts" Discord; I don't have any other contact for him but I can send you a link to the Discord if you can't get there yourself. This is one of the first (maybe the first) of the 64-bit zSeries (descendant of S/360, S/370, S/390) machines. You would have to pay IBM a lot of money to legally run a modern z/OS or MVS or VM or z/VM or VSE or z/VSE on it (and current versions won't work, but, like, z/VM 4.4 would). You could run MUSIC/SP for free, and of course VM/370 and MVS 3.8 are in the public domain (although I do not know offhand if the z9 can run those late-70s OSes). It will also run S/390 and z/Linux of the right vintage, which are free but maybe difficult to acquire these days. From Member @Booper : Z9 mainframe, ds8000 storage array , tape drive and misc components are scheduled to go to scrap at the end of the month. If someone wants to chime in and throw some money my way, i can sign the whole storage unit over to you. Located in melbourne fl. --===============4496067245632185557==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Thu Oct 6 01:21:58 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: z9 (s390x) mainframe up for grabs in Melbourne, FL Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2022 18:12:46 -0700 Message-ID: <56103562-954B-46F5-9BDA-A590637414F2@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2273749236727990682==" --===============2273749236727990682== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Oct 5, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >=20 > From the "Mainframe Enthusiasts" Discord; I don't have any other contact > for him but I can send you a link to the Discord if you can't get there > yourself. This is one of the first (maybe the first) of the 64-bit zSeries > (descendant of S/360, S/370, S/390) machines. You would have to pay IBM a > lot of money to legally run a modern z/OS or MVS or VM or z/VM or VSE or > z/VSE on it (and current versions won't work, but, like, z/VM 4.4 would). > You could run MUSIC/SP for free, and of course VM/370 and MVS 3.8 are in > the public domain (although I do not know offhand if the z9 can run those > late-70s OSes). It will also run S/390 and z/Linux of the right vintage, > which are free but maybe difficult to acquire these days. >=20 > From Member @Booper : Z9 mainframe, ds8000 storage array , tape drive and > misc components are scheduled to go to scrap at the end of the month. If > someone wants to chime in and throw some money my way, i can sign the whole > storage unit over to you. Located in melbourne fl. That z9 is very much a modern Mainframe, it=E2=80=99s only 17 years old, and = the current z16 came out this year. The S/390 series was discontinued back i= n =E2=80=9998, and the z-Series started in 2000. I wish I could afford to re= trieve it, and bring it online. I can=E2=80=99t afford it, and it sounds lik= e we=E2=80=99re talking about a minimum 4 racks. Will the damage from Hurricane Ian cause problems for anyone trying to retrie= ve it, and any idea if the Storage Unit suffered storm damage? Zane --===============2273749236727990682==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Oct 6 03:00:24 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2022 22:00:10 -0500 Message-ID: <7359adb3-f8a8-de04-349c-562d7b9ced4b@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <166500448992.2127592.7813901608233653968@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2796939392476983115==" --===============2796939392476983115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/5/22 16:14, Stephen Buck via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > I wanted to let the group know about a Bendix G-15 Restoration project I ju= st launched: > https://headspinlabs.wordpress.com/bendix-g-15-restoration/ > It's a pretty intimidating restoration (do no harm and all), so I'm reachin= g out to related sources, such as this group, for any suggestions or interest. WOW!=C2=A0 I worked on one in 1973 or so, but it had dust get in=20 and wreck the drum surface. Certainly an ambitious project, and even their schematics=20 are QUITE unfamiliar looking. Jon --===============2796939392476983115==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Oct 6 04:21:19 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 04:21:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7359adb3-f8a8-de04-349c-562d7b9ced4b@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0335628397185503609==" --===============0335628397185503609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was another list member that undertook the same project starting about = 2 years ago. He posted regular updates for awhile then stopped. Sorry, but i= don=E2=80=99t remember his name but his posts would be archived. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 5, 2022, at 20:00, Jon Elson via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/5/22 16:14, Stephen Buck via cctalk wrote: >> Hi All, >> I wanted to let the group know about a Bendix G-15 Restoration project I j= ust launched: >> https://headspinlabs.wordpress.com/bendix-g-15-restoration/ >> It's a pretty intimidating restoration (do no harm and all), so I'm reachi= ng out to related sources, such as this group, for any suggestions or interes= t. >=20 > WOW! I worked on one in 1973 or so, but it had dust get in and wreck the d= rum surface. >=20 > Certainly an ambitious project, and even their schematics are QUITE unfamil= iar looking. >=20 > Jon >=20 --===============0335628397185503609==-- From ethan@757.org Thu Oct 6 04:24:09 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: z9 (s390x) mainframe up for grabs in Melbourne, FL Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 00:17:51 -0400 Message-ID: <1caee543-4a5d-8aba-f614-9ba4e1fac27@757.org> In-Reply-To: <56103562-954B-46F5-9BDA-A590637414F2@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0529567122269389683==" --===============0529567122269389683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Will the damage from Hurricane Ian cause problems for anyone trying to retr= ieve it, and any idea if the Storage Unit suffered storm damage? > Zane Melbourne Florida is near Cape Canaveral, it's on the East Coast and=20 probably protected by the cape. Shouldn't be any water damage. Cool surplus place there MRAM Surplus or something. One of the employees=20 had stuff like full rack Onyx and all that. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============0529567122269389683==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Thu Oct 6 04:42:43 2022 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2022 21:42:28 -0700 Message-ID: <43BE483B-2739-4A3E-BF3D-E1FE1BE83A67@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: <7359adb3-f8a8-de04-349c-562d7b9ced4b@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5030780643276525215==" --===============5030780643276525215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To think that IBM Model B typewriter/terminal has no exposed wiring. It=E2=80=99s in the picture so it must be true! ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Oct 5, 2022, at 8:00 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/5/22 16:14, Stephen Buck via cctalk wrote: >> Hi All, >> I wanted to let the group know about a Bendix G-15 Restoration project I j= ust launched: >> https://headspinlabs.wordpress.com/bendix-g-15-restoration/ >> It's a pretty intimidating restoration (do no harm and all), so I'm reachi= ng out to related sources, such as this group, for any suggestions or interes= t. >=20 > WOW! I worked on one in 1973 or so, but it had dust get in and wreck the d= rum surface. >=20 > Certainly an ambitious project, and even their schematics are QUITE unfamil= iar looking. >=20 > Jon >=20 >=20 --===============5030780643276525215==-- From rdbrown0au@gmail.com Thu Oct 6 04:52:20 2022 From: Rodney Brown To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 15:51:59 +1100 Message-ID: <4cb1a026-f376-2113-8021-26a1260f83fc@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4499108563440604312==" --===============4499108563440604312== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to gcc-9.1.0/NEWS Intel i860 was an architecture declared obsolete in GCC 4.0 (and previously in GCC 3.1). So you could check the configuration files are there in 3.4.6 (2006-03-10) or in 4.0.4 (2007-01-31). The binutils/gas/i860 configuration files were removed in 2018-04-11, so binutils 2.30 (2018-01-28) may still be able to build cross binutils assemblers and linkers for the architecture. I don't have an unpacked gdb lying around to check. The announce mailing list archives https://sourceware.org/pipermail/gdb-announce/ may be worth checking if the config isn't in gdb. --===============4499108563440604312==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 6 13:16:31 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4cb1a026-f376-2113-8021-26a1260f83fc@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5839092240496762289==" --===============5839092240496762289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 6, 2022, at 12:51 AM, Rodney Brown via cctalk wrote: >=20 > According to gcc-9.1.0/NEWS Intel i860 was an architecture declared obsolet= e in GCC 4.0 (and previously in GCC 3.1). GCC does this in two steps. One is that it's marked as obsolete but can stil= l be built, you just get a warning. The second is that the bits are actually= removed. If you want to run something old, it's probably still good until t= hat final removal. But given the lack of maintenance that triggers removal, = it is certainly possible that there are some "bit rot" bugs before that point= , possibly even before the first warning stage. paul --===============5839092240496762289==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Oct 6 18:40:21 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 13:40:08 -0500 Message-ID: <7da7ce87-d69b-8926-e15d-da2cedd796f4@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <7359adb3-f8a8-de04-349c-562d7b9ced4b@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5136314537409406799==" --===============5136314537409406799== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/5/22 22:00, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/5/22 16:14, Stephen Buck via cctalk wrote: >> Hi All, >> I wanted to let the group know about a Bendix G-15 >> Restoration project I just launched: >> https://headspinlabs.wordpress.com/bendix-g-15-restoration/ >> It's a pretty intimidating restoration (do no harm and >> all), so I'm reaching out to related sources, such as >> this group, for any suggestions or interest. > > WOW!  I worked on one in 1973 or so, but it had dust get > in and wreck the drum surface. > > Certainly an ambitious project, and even their schematics > are QUITE unfamiliar looking. There's a Rob Kolstad in Colorado Springs who actually used a G-15 many ages ago, and has created a simulator for the G-15. He has some info on internals as he was hoping to eventually find one to restore.  I think he has a bunch of software on punched tape. Jon --===============5136314537409406799==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 6 19:23:28 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: Bendix G-15 Documentation Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 12:23:12 -0700 Message-ID: <0b5573cb4fd8cebb87045486eb12b97308e520f0.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <633b87cf.050a0220.91d50.5012@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0470071328318335765==" --===============0470071328318335765== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: rob.kolstad(a)gmail.com To: van.snyder(a)sbcglobal.net Subject: Bendix G-15 Documentation Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 19:09:34 -0600 Bendix G-15 DocumentationDear Fellow G-15 Enthusiast, I'm Rob Kolstad, and I am sending you this little informational blurb because I think you are interested in Bendix G-15 projects (sometimes because I have seen someone messaged you about such things in the last two decades). Feel free to send me an 'unsub' note to never hear again about such things. This note announces the beta test of the first set of the documentation collection: https://rbk.delosent.com/g15doc.html The collection includes 161 source documents (some duplicates) comprising some 10,566 pages (including blanks). I have broken some of the source documents into their constituent sub-documents (e.g., the Technical Application Memos) for easy access, yielding 1,414 documents in total. The collection is by no means complete (coming soon: good large-format schematics and perhaps a search bar), but it's a good start. I'll try to scan the rest before the year is out. The fine folks at the System Source Computer Museum in Baltimore have gained, at least for now, several Bendix G-15's (and peripherals) along with more than two dozen boxes of Bendix documentation mingled with documentation of a large highway engineering firm's projects. The collection also has hundreds of paper tapes in fabulous condition. I scanned a fraction of these documents back in June and combined them with my personal collection (thanks to Bob Sander-Cederlof in Texas) and the documents from bitsavers.org and the Computer History Museum (among others). This documentation section forms one of the main parts of the soon-to- be-released (2022) bendixg15.com website for all things G-15, including software, hardware/restorations, emulators, news, photos, and notes. Please feel free to check out the documents. I'll let you know in a few months when the general web-site is available. Comments, questions, and suggestions are always welcome. RK ==================================================================== /\ Rob Kolstad Delos /\ / \ rob.kolstad(a)gmail.com 15235 Roller Coaster Road / \/\/ \ Colorado Springs, CO 80921 / \ \ \ Phone: +1 719 481 6542 ==================================================================== --===============0470071328318335765==-- From spam@hell.org Thu Oct 6 19:25:52 2022 From: Mike Begley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 19:25:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7da7ce87-d69b-8926-e15d-da2cedd796f4@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8398498375395948664==" --===============8398498375395948664== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The folks at the Living Computer Museum + Labs in Seattle were working on a r= estoration of one of these, or another, similar Bendix machine. They remain = closed (who knows if they will ever reopen), but there might be a way to find= some of the people who were doing the work. -mike -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson via cctalk =20 Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2022 11:40 AM To: Jon Elson via cctalk Cc: Jon Elson Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration On 10/5/22 22:00, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/5/22 16:14, Stephen Buck via cctalk wrote: >> Hi All, >> I wanted to let the group know about a Bendix G-15 Restoration=20 >> project I just launched: >> https://headspinlabs.wordpress.com/bendix-g-15-restoration/ >> It's a pretty intimidating restoration (do no harm and all), so I'm=20 >> reaching out to related sources, such as this group, for any=20 >> suggestions or interest. > > WOW!=C2=A0 I worked on one in 1973 or so, but it had dust get in and wreck = > the drum surface. > > Certainly an ambitious project, and even their schematics are QUITE=20 > unfamiliar looking. There's a Rob Kolstad in Colorado Springs who actually used a G-15 many ages = ago, and has created a simulator for the G-15. He has some info on internals = as he was hoping to eventually find one to restore.=C2=A0 I think he has a bu= nch of software on punched tape. Jon --===============8398498375395948664==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 6 19:45:16 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 12:45:00 -0700 Message-ID: <8e8bffbb8632db600941315f75d749c279e976a8.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB2219F5C3B4C2CB9BD81E7698AC5C9=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1703670636990221029==" --===============1703670636990221029== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 2022-10-06 at 19:25 +0000, Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: > There's a Rob Kolstad in Colorado Springs who actually used a G-15 > many ages ago, and has created a simulator for the G-15. He has some > info on internals as he was hoping to eventually find one to > restore.  I think he has a bunch of software on punched tape. I wrote an emulator for Intercom 1000. Happy to send it to anybody who wants it. --===============1703670636990221029==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Thu Oct 6 20:27:12 2022 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 16:27:00 -0400 Message-ID: <4Mk2zS1XqszfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB2219F5C3B4C2CB9BD81E7698AC5C9=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9061284006915750699==" --===============9061284006915750699== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2022 19:25:38 +0000 > From: Mike Begley via cctalk > The folks at the Living Computer Museum + Labs in Seattle were working on a > restoration of one of these, or another, similar Bendix machine. They rema= in > closed (who knows if they will ever reopen), but there might be a way to fi= nd > some of the people who were doing the work. Hi, Mike, I forwarded the original post to Keith Perez, the engineer who did the restoration at LCM+L, when it arrived in my mailbox. I haven't heard from him to know if he contacted the poster. Keith had the machine working very nicely. In addition to the actual restoration, he created a device which fit into the tube (Brit. valve) holders to report the health of the tubes (which are not visible when the computer is assembled) and report via edge-visible LEDs; these were easily 3D-printed and cost effective. We actually had two G-15s; Keith worked on getting the second into running condition as well. Rich --===============9061284006915750699==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 6 20:50:11 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Need 8mm or DLT-II tape? Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 13:49:53 -0700 Message-ID: <32fe33d9282e8f6564457e2666b10079ff58012a.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <8c1f7ee2faa236d59b3c7bc0c67d98fb6f4cfcee.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7901976541442659612==" --===============7901976541442659612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have many 8mm tapes. A few are new. First comers get new ones. I have a few 8mm cleaning cassettes I have about a dozen DLT-II tapes. I have some Ultrium LTO fibre-channel SCSI drives that were removed from a tape-mounting robot several years ago. I never used them in my computers because I don't have a fibre-channel SCSI card. The mounting bracket for one was modified to have an internal power supply -- which might be inadequate. I have two Fujifilm 200/400 GB Ultrium 2 LTO tapes. I have a 5.25" floppy drive. Any of these are yours for the price of shipping; local pickup is OK too. Van Snyder van.snyder(a)sbcglobal.net La Crescenta, CA --===============7901976541442659612==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 6 22:22:59 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Need 8mm or DLT-II tape? Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 16:22:01 -0600 Message-ID: <5358c382-3aef-91d1-b84a-abfc4129ed10@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <32fe33d9282e8f6564457e2666b10079ff58012a.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2778724083901561815==" --===============2778724083901561815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Van, On 10/6/22 2:49 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I have many 8mm tapes. A few are new. First comers get new ones. > > I have a few 8mm cleaning cassettes > > I have about a dozen DLT-II tapes. > > I have some Ultrium LTO fibre-channel SCSI drives that were removed > from a tape-mounting robot several years ago. I never used them in my > computers because I don't have a fibre-channel SCSI card. The mounting > bracket for one was modified to have an internal power supply -- which > might be inadequate. I might be interested in the Ultrium LTO fibre-channel drives and tapes. I'm getting ready to move so can't do anything soon. However if nobody else raises their hand in what you consider to be a reasonable amount of time, I hope to be in a better position and would happily pay shipping. > I have two Fujifilm 200/400 GB Ultrium 2 LTO tapes. > > I have a 5.25" floppy drive. > > Any of these are yours for the price of shipping; local pickup is OK > too. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============2778724083901561815==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Thu Oct 6 23:47:37 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 23:47:26 +0000 Message-ID: <166510004655.2127592.4289179617472920608@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <4Mk2zS1XqszfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4596632078982528187==" --===============4596632078982528187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Rich! Keith did contact me, and I expect he will be of great help alon= g the way. Steve --===============4596632078982528187==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Thu Oct 6 23:49:11 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 23:49:00 +0000 Message-ID: <166510014024.2127592.4957258244816530010@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <8e8bffbb8632db600941315f75d749c279e976a8.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6992838528690699940==" --===============6992838528690699940== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd love to have a copy of it. I'm slowly working on a G-15 emulator, and it = would be interesting to see one for Intercom 1000 as well. --===============6992838528690699940==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Thu Oct 6 23:51:03 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 23:50:52 +0000 Message-ID: <166510025237.2127592.236351228100896423@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB2219F5C3B4C2CB9BD81E7698AC5C9=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3381582689907085143==" --===============3381582689907085143== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Jon, I'll save his name and try to look him up. I'm slowly working on = a simulator as well, but the paper tapes are real treasures! --===============3381582689907085143==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Thu Oct 6 23:51:53 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 23:51:44 +0000 Message-ID: <166510030424.2127592.15657901756745312334@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181FBC744FD726F067B7475E45C9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0458332782330348678==" --===============0458332782330348678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Wayne, I'll do some more digging. Anything helps. --===============0458332782330348678==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Thu Oct 6 23:52:52 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2022 23:52:41 +0000 Message-ID: <166510036161.2127592.7853812458788983770@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB2219F5C3B4C2CB9BD81E7698AC5C9=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1514112199661858255==" --===============1514112199661858255== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Mike! --===============1514112199661858255==-- From stueberahoo@yahoo.de Fri Oct 7 10:07:29 2022 From: Anke =?utf-8?q?St=C3=BCber?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Lecture: Who am I? CPUID on the PDP-8, 2022-10-09, 14:00 Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 12:07:50 +0200 Message-ID: <20221007100750.GF19610@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> In-Reply-To: <20221007100750.GF19610.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5634020309985196329==" --===============5634020309985196329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, you're invited to the Update computer club[0] public lecture series "Updateringar"[1]! Please note that this talk is given as a part of the Vintage Computing Festival Berlin 2022[2] this coming weekend, the time and place for watching the lecture stream are different than usual. When: 2022-10-09, 14:00 CEST Where: Stream: https://streaming.media.ccc.de/vcfb2022/Signallabor Q&A: https://bbb.cryptoparty.se/b/upd-0mo-m2u-aq8 Who am I? CPUID on the PDP-8 Portable software must adapt to peculiarities of the target platforms. Even variations within a "compatible" family of computers may require specific code. But how does a program identify which machine is executing it? In this presentation we will dissect, line by line, a subroutine written by the late Charles Lasner (CJL) as part of the Kermit implementation for the PDP-8 family of computers. The subroutine, "MACHINE", is capable of identifying all DEC PDP-8 models. Some familiarity with programming will benefit the listener, but the presentation includes the basics of PDP-8 assembly and the level should be approachable to most. Pontus Pihlgren (Update) The lecture is free and open to everyone. Don't want to miss upcoming events? Subscribe to our low-traffic announcement list here[3]! Hope to see you there, Anke/zeltophil [0] https://www.dfupdate.se/en/ [1] https://wiki.dfupdate.se/projekt:updateringar [2] https://vcfb.de/2022/index.html.en [3] https://lists.dfupdate.se/postorius/lists/announce.lists.dfupdate.se --===============5634020309985196329==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Fri Oct 7 14:35:39 2022 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 14:35:28 +0000 Message-ID: <166515332848.2127592.261634585722328284@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <166500448992.2127592.7813901608233653968@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3768279866243918226==" --===============3768279866243918226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently completed an emulator for the G-15. It supports the basic machine = configuration -- just paper tape and typewriter I/O -- but I'm interested in = implementing other peripheral devices as software that uses them becomes avai= lable. The emulator attempts to run at the speed of a real G-15, which is pre= tty slow. It successfully passes the one diagnostic test I have. The emulator is web-based and should run in reasonably recent versions of any= of the popular web browsers. I've tested it with Firefox, Google Chrome, App= le Safari, and Microsoft Edge. You can run the emulator directly from my host= ing site at https://www.phkimpel.us/Bendix-G15/ or you can download the files= from GitHub and run it from some other web server. Once the emulator loads i= nto the browser, there's no further interaction with the server. From the link above there are additional links to the GitHub repo, the wiki, = and additional resources. Issues concerning the emulator can be posted on the= GitHub repo. I don't currently have much software for the emulator, but am working with Ro= b Kolstad to curate a large stash that recently became available. What softwa= re I do have is available on a separate GitHub repo at https://github.com/ret= ro-software/G15-software/. Additional contributions are welcome. --===============3768279866243918226==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Fri Oct 7 14:36:39 2022 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 14:36:29 +0000 Message-ID: <166515338934.2127592.16309551505170861945@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <8e8bffbb8632db600941315f75d749c279e976a8.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3064107034179780309==" --===============3064107034179780309== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would also be interested in receiving a copy. --===============3064107034179780309==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Oct 7 16:57:38 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Figured out the Sun 386i supply, how to update the FAQ? Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 12:57:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6084144095083657772==" --===============6084144095083657772== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all! Been working on my 386i's, all the power supplies are smoked, so I bought a totally burned out one, gutted it, and connected a PC/AT power supply up to the card edge. Sure enough it works, and I now know that it needs +5, +12, -5, -12 (for the ISA bus) and a 5 volt "supply ready" signal as well. Also found the serial console interface works, and realized I should update the 386i FAQ with this information. So what would be the best way to do that in this day and age? CZ --===============6084144095083657772==-- From coryheisterkamp@gmail.com Fri Oct 7 17:39:44 2022 From: Cory Heisterkamp To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 12:39:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2005715852169825515==" --===============2005715852169825515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Guys, I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. Marked: AMP Inco= rporated - SYSCOM Division. It=E2=80=99s extremely well-built; pulling the lever at right moves the chrom= e lip forward and ejects the card. Case is rather stylized which suggests it = was free-standing.=20 Pics here: http://www.ht4100.com/temp/ Thanks, Cory Heisterkamp --===============2005715852169825515==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Fri Oct 7 17:40:37 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 17:40:27 +0000 Message-ID: <166516442760.2127592.13481900185043126238@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <166515332848.2127592.261634585722328284@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4777184286131426697==" --===============4777184286131426697== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's amazing! I'll add a link to the emulator on the blog. I'd love to see = any new software for the G-15, especially the Algo compiler, since I think th= at's something more people can relate to. --===============4777184286131426697==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Fri Oct 7 17:42:39 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Bendix G-15 Documentation Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 17:42:29 +0000 Message-ID: <166516454934.2127592.7614193443170380811@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <0b5573cb4fd8cebb87045486eb12b97308e520f0.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5650956698942855539==" --===============5650956698942855539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow! That is an incredibly complete and well-organized set of documentation. = I'm sure it will be useful as I move forward with the restoration. I'll add a= link to it in the blog. Thanks! --===============5650956698942855539==-- From drb@msu.edu Fri Oct 7 17:50:49 2022 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 13:50:39 -0400 Message-ID: <20221007175039.B227B4A7E3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5426573184545186578==" --===============5426573184545186578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. Marked: > AMP Incorporated - SYSCOM Division. Can't help with the identity, but I'm loving the 9 edge hanging out the front in contravention of the instruction label! :) Apparently AMP didn't know the "face down nine edge first" song... De --===============5426573184545186578==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Oct 7 17:52:55 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 13:52:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221007175039.B227B4A7E3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0023923806490867332==" --===============0023923806490867332== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 7, 2022, at 1:50 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. Marked: >> AMP Incorporated - SYSCOM Division. >=20 > Can't help with the identity, but I'm loving the 9 edge hanging out the > front in contravention of the instruction label! :) >=20 > Apparently AMP didn't know the "face down nine edge first" song... I don't know that as a song, but it's one of the final lines of the poem "The= Last Bug". paul --===============0023923806490867332==-- From drb@msu.edu Fri Oct 7 17:58:25 2022 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 13:58:14 -0400 Message-ID: <20221007175814.163D34A8C9@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8699131419223494502==" --===============8699131419223494502== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't know that as a song, but it's one of the final lines of the > poem "The Last Bug". "Now I will do nothing but listen, To accrue what I hear into this song, to let sounds contribute toward it." De --===============8699131419223494502==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Fri Oct 7 18:15:53 2022 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 14:15:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7073788236787780279==" --===============7073788236787780279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is for configuring the initial setup for a gizmo tester (semiconductor, cable, subassembly, etc.). -- Will On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 1:39 PM Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. Marked: AMP In= corporated - SYSCOM Division. > > It=E2=80=99s extremely well-built; pulling the lever at right moves the chr= ome lip forward and ejects the card. Case is rather stylized which suggests i= t was free-standing. > > Pics here: http://www.ht4100.com/temp/ > > Thanks, > Cory Heisterkamp --===============7073788236787780279==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 18:47:23 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 11:47:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221007175039.B227B4A7E3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3769742313321358959==" --===============3769742313321358959== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. Marked: > > AMP Incorporated - SYSCOM Division. On Fri, 7 Oct 2022, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Can't help with the identity, but I'm loving the 9 edge hanging out the > front in contravention of the instruction label! :) > Apparently AMP didn't know the "face down nine edge first" song... When the time comes, BURY ME faace down, nine edge first. --===============3769742313321358959==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Oct 7 18:51:46 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 14:51:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3917235942856057491==" --===============3917235942856057491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 7, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >> > I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. Marked: >> > AMP Incorporated - SYSCOM Division. >=20 > On Fri, 7 Oct 2022, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> Can't help with the identity, but I'm loving the 9 edge hanging out the >> front in contravention of the instruction label! :) >> Apparently AMP didn't know the "face down nine edge first" song... >=20 > When the time comes, BURY ME faace down, nine edge first. Didn't know that one. I do know: He died at the console of hunger and thirst next day he was buried face down, nine edge first paul --===============3917235942856057491==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 7 18:52:24 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 11:52:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221007175039.B227B4A7E3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7820636890094680054==" --===============7820636890094680054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2022-10-07 at 13:50 -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >  > I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. > Marked: >  > AMP Incorporated - SYSCOM Division. > > Can't help with the identity, but I'm loving the 9 edge hanging out > the > front in contravention of the instruction label! :) > > Apparently AMP didn't know the "face down nine edge first" song... I heard that when Tom Watson died they buried him 9-edge face down. > > De --===============7820636890094680054==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Fri Oct 7 19:09:45 2022 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 19:09:35 +0000 Message-ID: <166516977504.2127592.11960966728203694112@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <166516442760.2127592.13481900185043126238@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6766570185695050642==" --===============6766570185695050642== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned -- it's something l= ike 14 passes on paper tape, with intermediate results punched on paper tape.= I understand it's a bit more convenient to use if you have magnetic tape dri= ves, but it's still going to be slow -- there's only so much you can do with = 2K words of memory. --===============6766570185695050642==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Fri Oct 7 21:35:06 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 21:34:53 +0000 Message-ID: <166517849383.2127592.8720056262482514808@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <166516977504.2127592.11960966728203694112@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1087241034877206158==" --===============1087241034877206158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know if there are any copies of this miracle of software? It woul= d be fascinating to see it in action. --===============1087241034877206158==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 22:22:34 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 15:22:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4294950983312651015==" --===============4294950983312651015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>> I was curious if anyone recognizes this punched card reader. Marked: >>>> AMP Incorporated - SYSCOM Division. >>> Can't help with the identity, but I'm loving the 9 edge hanging out the >>> front in contravention of the instruction label! :) >>> Apparently AMP didn't know the "face down nine edge first" song... >> When the time comes, BURY ME faace down, nine edge first. On Fri, 7 Oct 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Didn't know that one. I do know: > > He died at the console > of hunger and thirst > next day he was buried > face down, nine edge first Well, I am definitely not the first one to say it. Face down: since card readers deal off the bottom of the deck, that puts the first card first. for burial, I can moon the world, or they can kiss my ass. 9 edge first puts the cut corner on the outside, where it is visible, to notice if a card is turned. I have seen corner cut on either left OR right upper corner. I don't recall seeing any with both corners cut. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4294950983312651015==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 7 23:14:41 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 17:14:27 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <166516977504.2127592.11960966728203694112@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8501720259821150299==" --===============8501720259821150299== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-10-07 1:09 p.m., paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: > We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned -- it's something= like 14 passes on paper tape, with intermediate results punched on paper tap= e. I understand it's a bit more convenient to use if you have magnetic tape d= rives, but it's still going to be slow -- there's only so much you can do wit= h 2K words of memory. Trying to hide the fact the drum makes it slow. Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the early serial=20 computers? Ben. --===============8501720259821150299==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Fri Oct 7 23:23:47 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 23:23:29 +0000 Message-ID: <738705917.3464684.1665185009315@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1460685588905597497==" --===============1460685588905597497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GE PROCESSS CONTROL COMPUTERS WENT TO A THIRD PARTY LARGE CORE STORE TO REPLA= CE SOME OF THE VERMONT RESEARCH DRUMS. SMECC SAVES ANYTHING RELATED TO GE PROCESS CONTROL COMPUTERS. AND ALSO=C2=A0 = GE DATA SYSTEMS=C2=A0 EMAIL=C2=A0 US WITH ITEMS FOR SALE OR? GE COMPUTERS. A PRODUCT=C2=A0 OF ARIZONA=C2=A0 THANKS ED SHARPE ARCHIVIST FOR SMECC=C2=A0 Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 4:14 PM, ben via cctalk wro= te: On 2022-10-07 1:09 p.m., paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: > We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned -- it's something= like 14 passes on paper tape, with intermediate results punched on paper tap= e. I understand it's a bit more convenient to use if you have magnetic tape d= rives, but it's still going to be slow -- there's only so much you can do wit= h 2K words of memory. Trying to hide the fact=C2=A0 the drum makes it slow. Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the early serial=20 computers? Ben. =20 --===============1460685588905597497==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Oct 8 00:10:28 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 20:10:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1104126682213983514==" --===============1104126682213983514== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 7, 2022, at 6:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > ... > On Fri, 7 Oct 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Didn't know that one. I do know: >>=20 >> He died at the console >> of hunger and thirst >> next day he was buried >> face down, nine edge first >=20 > Well, I am definitely not the first one to say it. >=20 > Face down: since card readers deal off the bottom of the deck, that puts th= e first card first. for burial, I can moon the world, or they can kiss my a= ss. >=20 > 9 edge first puts the cut corner on the outside, where it is visible, to no= tice if a card is turned. I have seen corner cut on either left OR right upp= er corner. I don't recall seeing any with both corners cut. I do remember cards with no corner cut, and also with pointy corners rather t= han the usual rounded corners. Some devices would feed 12 edge first. I vaguely remember IBM reader/punch u= nits where one went 9-edge first and the other 12-edge first. Then of course some card devices feed the narrow edge (1 column) first rather= than the top or bottom row. CDC had a reader that worked column-wise and a = punch that worked row-wise, so the interface logic for the punch needed a tra= nspose operation while the reader doesn't -- given that both would transfer c= ard data as a word per column. But Electrologica used the same hardware with= out the transpose logic in the controller, so the software would see columns = from the reader but would have to construct rows to send to the punch. paul --===============1104126682213983514==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Oct 8 00:23:58 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 20:23:46 -0400 Message-ID: <691E5696-C31F-402D-88F5-2F9F78E7FFA7@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4981954778208274543==" --===============4981954778208274543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 7, 2022, at 7:14 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2022-10-07 1:09 p.m., paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: >> We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned -- it's somethin= g like 14 passes on paper tape, with intermediate results punched on paper ta= pe. I understand it's a bit more convenient to use if you have magnetic tape = drives, but it's still going to be slow -- there's only so much you can do wi= th 2K words of memory. >=20 > Trying to hide the fact the drum makes it slow. > Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the early serial com= puters? I don't know about replacement; that would be tricky because the serial natur= e of the memory might well be embedded all over the logic design. There are some hybrids, though. One I know of is the Dutch ARMAC (1956). Th= at's a machine with drum main memory (3584 34-bit words), but it has two 32-w= ord core memory units, one is a 32-word general purpose memory, and one holds= the most recently referenced track of the drum. This is the machine on which Dijkstrao wrote the first implementation of his = Shortest Path algorithm, familiar to all networking people. paul --===============4981954778208274543==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Oct 8 01:18:12 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 18:17:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1385180865208510042==" --===============1385180865208510042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/7/22 16:14, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-10-07 1:09 p.m., paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: >> We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned -- it's >> something like 14 passes on paper tape, with intermediate results >> punched on paper tape. I understand it's a bit more convenient to use >> if you have magnetic tape drives, but it's still going to be slow -- >> there's only so much you can do with 2K words of memory. > > Trying to hide the fact  the drum makes it slow. > Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the early serial > computers? I recall that the IBM 650 had an upgrade option where core was used for some of the registers. It was small--maybe 50 words. --Chuck --===============1385180865208510042==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Oct 8 02:10:38 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 21:10:27 -0500 Message-ID: <0d5aa5d4-0737-cf11-95c4-78d07e83b2bd@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0901091227485879225==" --===============0901091227485879225== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/7/22 18:14, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-10-07 1:09 p.m., paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: >> We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned >> -- it's something like 14 passes on paper tape, with >> intermediate results punched on paper tape. I understand >> it's a bit more convenient to use if you have magnetic >> tape drives, but it's still going to be slow -- there's >> only so much you can do with 2K words of memory. > > Trying to hide the fact  the drum makes it slow. > Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the > early serial computers? > Ben. > Tghe G-15 was a serial computer with an 90 KHz bit clock.  The entire organization of teh computer revolved around the drum (pun intended).  There was an optimizer that organized instructions around the drum so that the next instruction came up on the read head just as the last instruction finished.  Without tearing the entire machine apart and redesigning the logic, core would not make it faster. The PDP-8S did have core memory, and for a bit serial computer, it was fairly fast. Jon --===============0901091227485879225==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Oct 8 03:08:06 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: AMP Punched Card Reader Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 20:07:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6274573773984451233==" --===============6274573773984451233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/7/22 17:10, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Then of course some card devices feed the narrow edge (1 column) first rath= er than the top or bottom row. CDC had a reader that worked column-wise and = a punch that worked row-wise, so the interface logic for the punch needed a t= ranspose operation while the reader doesn't -- given that both would transfer= card data as a word per column. But Electrologica used the same hardware wi= thout the transpose logic in the controller, so the software would see column= s from the reader but would have to construct rows to send to the punch. CDC 405 reader and 415 punch. Both pretty noisy, but I found the 415 more aurally irritating--and easily overheated if you ran a big punch job. Early IBM gear read only the first 72 columns of an 80 column card; hence the restriction for early FORTRAN to 72 columns. Made sense reading row-binary into 2 36-bit words. Generally, the 405 was very fast and trouble free--until a card was fed that got stuck in the works, resulting in lots of "accordion pleated" cards in the stacker. It was a marvel of engineering, with its machine-gun rattle of 1200 cards/minute. You could load two boxes (4000 cards) in the hopper. --Chuck --===============6274573773984451233==-- From manna5@safe-mail.net Sat Oct 8 07:02:57 2022 From: "Manna5@Safe-mail.net" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Copy of the 8080 instruction encoding reference from /dunfield Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 02:32:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2434846340701710992==" --===============2434846340701710992== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the past, I have found a well written Intel 8080 instruction set reference on the ClassicCmp website (at http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/r/8080.txt). But now that URL returns "not found" message. Fortunately, I have already saved that document on my PC local disk, and now you can get its copy from http://manna5.c1.biz/8080.txt . Also, I want to ask if mirroring content from ClassicCmp is OK for the ClassicCmp community, or maybe it isn't OK and I should remove that copy from my site? _____________________________________________ Jan "Manna5" Mleczko, http://manna5.c1.biz/ --===============2434846340701710992==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 07:36:38 2022 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 08:36:21 +0100 Message-ID: <306801d8dae8$aac49f30$004ddd90$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0d5aa5d4-0737-cf11-95c4-78d07e83b2bd@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4362871749513606080==" --===============4362871749513606080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Elson via cctalk > Sent: 08 October 2022 03:10 > To: ben via cctalk > Cc: Jon Elson > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration >=20 > On 10/7/22 18:14, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2022-10-07 1:09 p.m., paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: > >> We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned > >> -- it's something like 14 passes on paper tape, with intermediate > >> results punched on paper tape. I understand it's a bit more > >> convenient to use if you have magnetic tape drives, but it's still > >> going to be slow -- there's only so much you can do with 2K words of > >> memory. > > > > Trying to hide the fact the drum makes it slow. > > Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the early > > serial computers? > > Ben. > > > Tghe G-15 was a serial computer with an 90 KHz bit clock. The entire > organization of teh computer revolved around the drum (pun intended). There > was an optimizer that organized instructions around the drum so that the ne= xt > instruction came up on the read head just as the last instruction > finished. Without tearing the entire machine apart and redesigning the log= ic, > core would not make it faster. >=20 I know the Ferranti Pegasus which is/was a serial machine everything was cloc= ked to the drum. If the drum failed there was a special set of hardware to re= -write the clock track. Whilst replacing the clock would not have been hard, I don't think adding cor= e would have helped there because everything was so integrated. .. it used delay lines for registers which ran at the same speed so everythin= g just worked... > The PDP-8S did have core memory, and for a bit serial computer, it was fair= ly > fast. >=20 For calculation, I believe the G-15 was fast. I can't believe any one would s= eriously run a high level compiler on such a machine. > Jon Dave --===============4362871749513606080==-- From amp1ron@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 15:32:51 2022 From: amp1ron@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Copy of the 8080 instruction encoding reference from /dunfield Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 11:32:24 -0400 Message-ID: <007c01d8db2b$2fd9f700$8f8de500$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3906553744411412413==" --===============3906553744411412413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/08/2022 at 2:32 AM Manna5(a)Safe-mail.net wrote: > In the past, I have found a well written Intel 8080 instruction set > reference > on the ClassicCmp website (at http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/r/8080.txt). > But > now that URL returns "not found" message. Fortunately, I have already > saved > that document on my PC local disk, and now you can get its copy from > http://manna5.c1.biz/8080.txt . That is a great document and is probably all you need to refer to once you know the instruction set. It seems to have been moved to http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/r/8080.txt . If you don't know the 8080 instruction set, you might want to look in http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/r where you'll find http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/r/8080inst.pdf that explains each instruction. Start at the top of http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/ and you'll find a LOT of Information on many classic systems. -- Ron Pool --===============3906553744411412413==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Sat Oct 8 19:19:32 2022 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 19:19:22 +0000 Message-ID: <166525676207.2127592.5001353892617619576@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <166517849383.2127592.8720056262482514808@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3119486732521103203==" --===============3119486732521103203== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Pierce in Portland, Oregon has a copy on paper tape, but the tapes have = been water-damaged and will require restoration. He told me that is on his li= st of projects, but it will be a while until he can get to it. There may be o= ther copies, but I don't know of them at present. --===============3119486732521103203==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Sat Oct 8 19:50:23 2022 From: Paul Kimpel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 12:08:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0d5aa5d4-0737-cf11-95c4-78d07e83b2bd@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7816245291774056411==" --===============7816245291774056411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit *From:* Jon Elson via cctalk *Subject:* [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration *Date:* Friday, October 7, 2022 at 7:10 PM *To:* ben via cctalk *Cc:* Jon Elson > On 10/7/22 18:14, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2022-10-07 1:09 p.m., paul.kimpel--- via cctalk wrote: >>> We'd all like to see the ALGO compiler, but be forewarned -- it's >>> something like 14 passes on paper tape, with intermediate results >>> punched on paper tape. I understand it's a bit more convenient to >>> use if you have magnetic tape drives, but it's still going to be >>> slow -- there's only so much you can do with 2K words of memory. >> >> Trying to hide the fact  the drum makes it slow. >> Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the early >> serial computers? >> Ben. >> > Tghe G-15 was a serial computer with an 90 KHz bit clock.  The entire > organization of teh computer revolved around the drum (pun intended).  > There was an optimizer that organized instructions around the drum so > that the next instruction came up on the read head just as the last > instruction finished.  Without tearing the entire machine apart and > redesigning the logic, core would not make it faster. > > The PDP-8S did have core memory, and for a bit serial computer, it was > fairly fast. > > Jon With respect to timing, it depends what you mean by "bit clock." The drum rotated at 1800 rpm and there were 3596 bits recorded along its circumference (124 words of 29 bits), so that works out to 107,880 bits/s. That is a bit period of 9.3 µs, which is what the G-15 Theory of Operation manual calls a "pulse period." A pulse period, however, was divided by the clock chassis into phases of 1 µs, 6.3 µs, and 2 µs, so the internal frequency of the logic was higher, if somewhat irregular. That said, Jon is absolutely right about replacing the drum with some sort of random-access memory -- you would need to extensively redesign the logic of the machine to take advantage of the new memory. You would also have to modify a lot of the software. Timing dependencies aside, G-15 instructions didn't have addresses -- they had "timing numbers" that effectively told the hardware how long to wait before reading or writing a word on the drum. Paul --===============7816245291774056411==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 8 21:31:13 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 14:30:54 -0700 Message-ID: <872f6cfbc1548dfe7a84c4c2ab6506e912dd4c02.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1599115443609713610==" --===============1599115443609713610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2022-10-07 at 18:17 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I recall that the IBM 650 had an upgrade option where core was used > for > some of the registers.  It was small--maybe 50 words. Until it moved from Sindelfingen to the IBM Tech Center in Böblingen, the collection at Haus zur Geschichte der IBM Datebverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) included a 650 in working order. It belonged to a museum or university in Vienna and was returned when the collection moved. I hope it survived the return journey. Hans Spengler was one of the staff who maintained the 650. He would likely know whether a core accessory had been available. --===============1599115443609713610==-- From coryheisterkamp@gmail.com Sat Oct 8 23:11:41 2022 From: Cory Heisterkamp To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 18:11:29 -0500 Message-ID: <01F5D63C-3DC9-48C3-A668-F7BDE6F69118@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4610145457461270685==" --===============4610145457461270685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 7, 2022, at 6:14 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Trying to hide the fact the drum makes it slow. > Did any one ever replace the drum with core memory, on the early serial com= puters? > Ben. >=20 While not in the interest of increasing throughput, =E2=80=9Cvintage=E2=80=9D= computers with drums that continued to soldier on well after their expiratio= n date did require a more modern memory alternative. The LINK GP-4 that I pos= ted about in 2016 at the Northwest Airlines Simulation Center was one such co= mputer. Sadly sold for scrap, it had a =E2=80=9Csolid state drum emulator", l= oadable via 3.5=E2=80=9D diskette. Pics here: https://goo.gl/photos/yb83SJSj6= 7gS96n39 -C --===============4610145457461270685==-- From trash80@internode.on.net Mon Oct 10 06:20:27 2022 From: Kevin Parker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 17:15:01 +1100 Message-ID: <078001d8dc6f$a505c910$ef115b30$@internode.on.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8645620602096465956==" --===============8645620602096465956== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hoping there's an Apple enthusiast out there somewhere please. A friend gave me a PM G5 which I'd love to add to the Apple corner of my collection. Must admit I love the G5 case. Problem is the internals are in a million pieces but everything seems to be there. Its not a basket case, more like a bucket case because I took the side off and basically poured it all out. My options are. > Toss it > Use the case for an ATX conversion > Use it for a letter box > Have a crack at fixing it. I like having a crack at fixing things first. I'm a preservationist first. Problem is my GoogleFoo can't find any diagrams, illustrations etc on how the internals are put together and I'm hoping some Apple person out there might have something or be able to point me somewhere. (I did find some photos at https://www.overclock.net/threads/power-mac-g5-build.1452312/ for a twin CPU model but I need more detail for a single chip 2.0 GHz PowerPC 970MP (G5) model.) Thank you. Kevin Parker --===============8645620602096465956==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 10 08:11:43 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 10:11:28 +0200 Message-ID: <483a984-4186-1cde-7995-161b79eaa3c@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0505967077562253482==" --===============0505967077562253482== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 8 Oct 2022, Paul Kimpel wrote: > modify a lot of the software. Timing dependencies aside, G-15 instructions = > didn't have addresses -- they had "timing numbers" that effectively told th= e=20 > hardware how long to wait before reading or writing a word on the drum. Oh really, that is then similar to the addressing scheme of the Diehl=20 Combitron (a marvellous design by Stanley Frankel). Christian --===============0505967077562253482==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 10 08:16:39 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 10:16:19 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5573379399547554795==" --===============5573379399547554795== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 7 Oct 2022, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recall that the IBM 650 had an upgrade option where core was used for > some of the registers. It was small--maybe 50 words. The Z22 had a very small area of core memory, called "fast memory" (Schnellspeicher). And then we have boards out of an LGP-21 (that we still lack in our collection) that replaced the on-disc registers with semiconductor shift registers. I don't really know why they did that. Christian --===============5573379399547554795==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Oct 10 14:36:13 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 09:35:58 -0500 Message-ID: <895bbd6c-18cd-6731-2a29-eb4a7aebad48@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <483a984-4186-1cde-7995-161b79eaa3c@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2113709417111706276==" --===============2113709417111706276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > On Sat, 8 Oct 2022, Paul Kimpel wrote: >> modify a lot of the software. Timing dependencies aside, >> G-15 instructions didn't have addresses -- they had >> "timing numbers" that effectively told the hardware how >> long to wait before reading or writing a word on the drum. Well, No, I believe that each instruction had the address of the next instruction in it.  That allowed you to jump to another track for the next instruction in the sequence.  Instruction addresses were not that many bits. Jon --===============2113709417111706276==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:34:20 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:33:57 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <078001d8dc6f$a505c910$ef115b30$@internode.on.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8859136966123370768==" --===============8859136966123370768== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 at 08:20, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > Problem is my GoogleFoo can't find any diagrams, illustrations etc on how > the internals are put together What? I am *amazed*. I don't know how you could _not_ find the info. There is loads of it. This is the first hit on "apple powermac g5 disassembly" -- https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Disassembling+Power+Mac+G5+Motherboard/7579 This is the 2nd: https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Power_Mac_G5 It's one of the easiest machines ever to assemble or disassemble and there's tons of info, videos, walkthrough, step by step guides etc. 4 words is not "Google-fu". -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8859136966123370768==-- From rickb@bensene.com Mon Oct 10 16:35:44 2022 From: Rick Bensene To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 09:27:23 -0700 Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4B40@mail.bensene.com> In-Reply-To: <483a984-4186-1cde-7995-161b79eaa3c@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8455517161735716955==" --===============8455517161735716955== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul wrote: >> modify a lot of the software. Timing dependencies aside, G-15 instructions >> didn't have addresses -- they had "timing numbers" that effectively told the >> hardware how long to wait before reading or writing a word on the drum. To which Christian replied: > Oh really, that is then similar to the addressing scheme of the Diehl > Combitron (a marvelous design by Stanley Frankel). Indeed, the old drum computers generally had timing information in the instruction set that gave the optimal sector on the drum for the operand address, and the next instruction address. We had an old computer at our high school computer lab (1974-ish) that was designed in the mid-1960's by 3M (the scotch tape company) that was originally a real-time monitor and data reduction system for a natural gas distribution system and was donated to the school when it was retired. The machine had two CPUs that ran in tandem with the ability to detect a fault in one, and switch to the other. The CPUs had 24-bit words, and each had 8K words of magnetic drum memory. They were discrete transistor-based machines and were bit-serial in architecture. An instruction like ADD that operated on an operand to add to the accumulator would have information in the instruction set reference that said "for optimal programming, operand=N+3, next instruction=N+6". The assembler (which was slow!), called SOAP, tried to optimize, but for a lot of things like list processing and such, it really couldn't do much to help. Tables and lists had to be scattered all over the drum for the best speed, and that got kind of difficult because the operand address only had room for a sector number. If the reference was on a different track, you had to prefix the instruction with a modifier instruction that would specify the block and track for the operand (and next instruction if needed). There were no index registers, so the only way to do calculated data fetches or branches was to load the instruction base into the accumulator, then modify it using math operations to calculate the correct sector, then store the accumulator at the address specified by the next instruction address to execute it. It was crazy fun learning it, but in practice, even trying really hard to optimize the code, it could barely drive a Teletype 33ASR to full 10 character-per-second maximum speed. It had a bunch of I/O stuff, including a Parabam transistorized real-time clock that could be read by the computer, a bank of thumbwheel switches that could be read in BCD form, and a whole rack full of A/D (discrete transistor) converters, digital counters, analog outputs, and digital relay outputs that were used for the original data acquisition I/O, but the cables going into them were just chopped off, and I never played with any of that other than to write code to click the relays in pseudo-random patterns to make a noise like the machine was "calculating". Speaking of the Diehl Combitron, it was indeed an amazing transistorized (with only something like ~130 transistors in total) calculator designed by the genius of Stan Frankel (who also designed the transistorized Smith-Corona/Marchant (SCM) Cogito 240/240SR calculator (which was way too slow due to SCM requiring the use of cheap slow-switching diodes), the Royal McBee/Librascope/General Precision LGP-30 vacuum-tube drum computer, as well as consulted in the design of the delay line-based Packard Bell PB-250. The Combitron was an amazing microcoded bit-serial processor designed in around '63-'64 by Frankel. It was user-programmable (but not user microprogrammable, unless...). ROM for storing the microcode was a difficult thing back then, generally taking quite a bit of space (not really practical for a desktop calculator) and were labor-intensive and expensive to build. How did Frankel store the microcode for the Combitron? On a punched stainless steel tape that was optically read a bit at a time at power-up into a delay line. Once the microcode was loaded, the tape would rewind and the microcode engine would start up reading its instructions out of the delay line. Hence the addressing scheme in the microcode to make it as fast as possible. The addressing scheme accounted for the delay time for processing a microcode function such that the next micro-instruction would be right at the output tap of the delay line when it was needed. It takes about a minute for the microcode to load when the machine is powered up. The tape has two channels, one for the clock, and another for the microcode bits. By the way, an end-user could presumably write custom microcode for the calculator if they had the microcode documentation and a way to punch the stainless steel tape. Possible, but not terribly practical. Loading the microcode from a reel of punched metal tape made firmware updates possible by replacing the tape. I do not know if there were different versions of the microcode for the Combitron to fix bugs, but it certainly was a possibility that was enabled by this microcode loading mechanism. The tape is relatively easy to replace, and could be done in the field by a service tech if needed. Stainless steel was used for longevity of the tape, given that it had to be read every time the machine was powered on. I have one of these machines in the Old Calculator Museum's collection that is fully operational. The tape transport mechanism required work to get it running properly. The printer has a couple of columns that print very lightly, which I haven't been able to figure out how to fix yet. The printing mechanism is an exquisite work of art in itself, the creation of some brilliant German mechanical engineers, probably adapted from one of Diehl's earlier mechanical printing calculators. I haven't yet written the exhibit for the machine yet...among the many things I have on my to-do list, but it's quite a great story how the machine was developed. Frankel built the original prototype for the machine in his kitchen in a relay rack as an exercise to test out his theories. He had to use as few transistors as possible, because they were expensive and he built the prototype using his own funds, resulting in an extremely efficient design. He had two telephone dials that were used to enter the microcode instructions, one dial for the number of sequential zeroes and another for the number of sequential ones that would be loaded into the microcode delay line (essentially run-length encoding). The old pulse-style dialers were perfect for injecting the pulses into the delay line to represent the microcode words Needless to say, it took a while to load the microcode this way. One mistake, and you'd have to start over. The prototype design worked well, so he decided to try to market it, and Diehl in West Germany bought the rights to it. Frankel went to their factory to assist with the actual calculator design and trained the engineering and manufacturing folks on how it worked and how to build it, as well as assisting in writing all of the documentation for end-users as well as service techs. A number of follow-on calculators were marketed by Diehl using the architecture Frankel created, including some advanced machines with scientific and statistical functions. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com --===============8455517161735716955==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:20:56 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 11:20:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4B40@mail.bensene.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0930327684198877575==" --===============0930327684198877575== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Awesome history, Rick! Sellam On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 9:35 AM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Paul wrote: > >> modify a lot of the software. Timing dependencies aside, G-15 > instructions > >> didn't have addresses -- they had "timing numbers" that effectively > told the > >> hardware how long to wait before reading or writing a word on the > drum. > > To which Christian replied: > > > Oh really, that is then similar to the addressing scheme of the Diehl > > Combitron (a marvelous design by Stanley Frankel). > > Indeed, the old drum computers generally had timing information in the > instruction set that gave the optimal > sector on the drum for the operand address, and the next instruction > address. > > We had an old computer at our high school computer lab (1974-ish) that > was designed in the mid-1960's by 3M (the scotch tape company) that was > originally a real-time monitor and data reduction system for a natural > gas distribution system and was donated to the school when it was > retired. > > The machine had two CPUs that ran in tandem with the ability to detect a > fault in one, and switch to the other. > The CPUs had 24-bit words, and each had 8K words of magnetic drum > memory. They were discrete transistor-based machines and were > bit-serial in architecture. An instruction like ADD that operated on > an operand to add to the accumulator would have information in the > instruction set reference that said "for optimal programming, > operand=N+3, next instruction=N+6". > The assembler (which was slow!), called SOAP, tried to optimize, but for > a lot of things like list processing and such, it really couldn't do > much to help. Tables and lists had to be scattered all over the drum > for the best speed, and that got kind of difficult because the operand > address only had room for a sector number. If the reference was on a > different track, you had to prefix the instruction with a modifier > instruction that would specify the block and track for the operand (and > next instruction if needed). There were no index registers, so the > only way to do calculated data fetches or branches was to load the > instruction base into the accumulator, then modify it using math > operations to calculate the correct sector, then store the accumulator > at the address specified by the next instruction address to execute it. > It was crazy fun learning it, but in practice, even trying really hard > to optimize the code, it could barely drive a Teletype 33ASR to full 10 > character-per-second maximum speed. It had a bunch of I/O stuff, > including a Parabam transistorized real-time clock that could be read by > the computer, a bank of thumbwheel switches that could be read in BCD > form, and a whole rack full of A/D (discrete transistor) converters, > digital counters, analog outputs, and digital relay outputs that were > used for the original data acquisition I/O, but the cables going into > them were just chopped off, and I never played with any of that other > than to write code to click the relays in pseudo-random patterns to make > a noise like the machine was "calculating". > > Speaking of the Diehl Combitron, it was indeed an amazing transistorized > (with only something like ~130 transistors in total) calculator designed > by the genius of Stan Frankel (who also designed the transistorized > Smith-Corona/Marchant (SCM) Cogito 240/240SR calculator (which was way > too slow due to SCM requiring the use of cheap slow-switching diodes), > the Royal McBee/Librascope/General Precision LGP-30 vacuum-tube drum > computer, as well as consulted in the design of the delay line-based > Packard Bell PB-250. > > The Combitron was an amazing microcoded bit-serial processor designed in > around '63-'64 by Frankel. It was user-programmable (but not user > microprogrammable, unless...). ROM for storing the microcode was a > difficult thing back then, generally taking quite a bit of space (not > really practical for a desktop calculator) and were labor-intensive and > expensive to build. > > How did Frankel store the microcode for the Combitron? > > On a punched stainless steel tape that was optically read a bit at a > time at power-up into a delay line. Once the microcode was loaded, the > tape would rewind and the microcode engine would start up reading its > instructions out of the delay line. Hence the addressing scheme in the > microcode to make it as fast as possible. The addressing scheme > accounted for the delay time for processing a microcode function such > that the next micro-instruction would be right at the output tap of the > delay line when it was needed. > > It takes about a minute for the microcode to load when the machine is > powered up. The tape has two channels, one for the clock, and another > for the microcode bits. > > By the way, an end-user could presumably write custom microcode for the > calculator if they had the microcode documentation and a way to punch > the stainless steel tape. Possible, but not terribly practical. > > Loading the microcode from a reel of punched metal tape made firmware > updates possible by replacing the tape. I do not know if there were > different versions of the microcode for the Combitron to fix bugs, but > it certainly was a possibility that was enabled by this microcode > loading mechanism. The tape is relatively easy to replace, and could be > done in the field by a service tech if needed. Stainless steel was used > for longevity of the tape, given that it had to be read every time the > machine was powered on. > > I have one of these machines in the Old Calculator Museum's collection > that is fully operational. The tape transport mechanism required work > to get it running properly. The printer has a couple of columns that > print very lightly, which I haven't been able to figure out how to fix > yet. The printing mechanism is an exquisite work of art in itself, > the creation of some brilliant German mechanical engineers, probably > adapted from one of Diehl's earlier mechanical printing calculators. > > I haven't yet written the exhibit for the machine yet...among the many > things I have on my to-do list, but it's quite a great story how the > machine was developed. > > Frankel built the original prototype for the machine in his kitchen in a > relay rack as an exercise to test out his theories. He had to use as few > transistors as possible, because they were expensive and he built the > prototype using his own funds, resulting in an extremely efficient > design. He had two telephone dials that were used to enter the > microcode instructions, one dial for the number of sequential zeroes and > another for the number of sequential ones that would be loaded into the > microcode delay line (essentially run-length encoding). The old > pulse-style dialers were perfect for injecting the pulses into the delay > line to represent the microcode words Needless to say, it took a while > to load the microcode this way. One mistake, and you'd have to start > over. > > The prototype design worked well, so he decided to try to market it, and > Diehl in West Germany bought the rights to it. Frankel went to their > factory to assist with the actual calculator design and trained the > engineering and manufacturing folks on how it worked and how to build > it, as well as assisting in writing all of the documentation for > end-users as well as service techs. A number of follow-on calculators > were marketed by Diehl using the architecture Frankel created, including > some advanced machines with scientific and statistical functions. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > https://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > --===============0930327684198877575==-- From mark.tapley@swri.org Mon Oct 10 19:49:48 2022 From: "Tapley, Mark B." To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 19:16:00 +0000 Message-ID: <6C8622B0-3A40-4730-B3ED-B638916B6701@swri.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6977141491098741848==" --===============6977141491098741848== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few more useful sites: https://tim.id.au/laptops/apple/powermac/powermac_g5.pdf This one includes official Apple =E2=80=9Ctake-apart procedures" http://resale.headgap.com Parts and components, in case you actually are missing something in their cat= alog. Satisfied customer, no other relation. https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/index-powermac-g5.html https://lowendmac.com/tag/power-mac-g5/ Specifications, benchmarks, etc. Once you get it running, we are headed into winter when electric heaters may = be desirable. These two sites: https://www.distributed.net/Main_Page http://tenfourfox.blogspot.com Will give you semi-productive things to do with it; the G5 machines with alti= vec are pretty good at RC5-72 compared to most CPUs, and TenFourFox is essen= tially a current web-browser. I=E2=80=99m also not a black-belt goog-fu artist. There is more available. Hope this much is helpful, though. - Mark On Oct 10, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 at 08:20, Kevin Parker via cctalk > wrote: Problem is my GoogleFoo can't find any diagrams, illustrations etc on how the internals are put together What? I am *amazed*. I don't know how you could _not_ find the info. There is loads of it. This is the first hit on "apple powermac g5 disassembly" -- https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Disassembling+Power+Mac+G5+Motherboard/7579 This is the 2nd: https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Power_Mac_G5 It's one of the easiest machines ever to assemble or disassemble and there's tons of info, videos, walkthrough, step by step guides etc. 4 words is not "Google-fu". -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============6977141491098741848==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Mon Oct 10 19:56:41 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 12:56:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6C8622B0-3A40-4730-B3ED-B638916B6701@swri.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6595731384278151042==" --===============6595731384278151042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > TenFourFox is essentially a current web-browser. It's kind of you to say that, but at its core it's still just a hopped-up Firefox 45. Many things work, many things work but look funny, and an increasing proportion of things don't work at all. I myself just use it for basic tasks now that I'm on a Raptor Talos II as my desktop machine, though I do issue security patches on an irregular timeline. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- If they give you ruled paper, write the other way. -- Juan Ramon Jimenez -= -- --===============6595731384278151042==-- From doc@vaxen.net Mon Oct 10 20:54:09 2022 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 14:38:18 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5140397410571756418==" --===============5140397410571756418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/10/22 11:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 at 08:20, Kevin Parker via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Problem is my GoogleFoo can't find any diagrams, illustrations etc on how >> the internals are put together > > What? I am *amazed*. I don't know how you could _not_ find the info. > There is loads of it. > > This is the first hit on "apple powermac g5 disassembly" -- > > https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Disassembling+Power+Mac+G5+Motherboard/7579 > > This is the 2nd: > > https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Power_Mac_G5 > > It's one of the easiest machines ever to assemble or disassemble and > there's tons of info, videos, walkthrough, step by step guides etc. > > 4 words is not "Google-fu". Liam, don't be a d**k. Doc --===============5140397410571756418==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 10 21:40:39 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 15:39:38 -0600 Message-ID: <2115880a-9b00-9984-299a-9a6c12de8cc8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2828199964173485408==" --===============2828199964173485408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/10/22 10:33 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > 4 words is not "Google-fu". Sometimes knowing /which/ /words/ to search for is the problem. I've also seen Google return extremely different search results for different people. Let's assume good intention and benign mistake. No need to even passively insult someone. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============2828199964173485408==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Oct 10 22:06:07 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] looking for DQ696 and RQDX3 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:05:52 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8989171124302333265==" --===============8989171124302333265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi folk, I am still looking for a DQ696 to allow me to get ESDI drives going on both my microVAX and 11/73 since the Webster RQD11 controller failed I only have the one.  I'd also like to get old of an RQDX3 since I built a Gesswein emulator and have nothing to test it with :-) Any help appreciated, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============8989171124302333265==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon Oct 10 22:31:32 2022 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: looking for DQ696 and RQDX3 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 15:31:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4793978419490730797==" --===============4793978419490730797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 3:06 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > Hi folk, > > I am still looking for a DQ696 to allow me to get ESDI drives going on > both my microVAX and 11/73 since the Webster RQD11 controller failed I > only have the one. I'd also like to get old of an RQDX3 since I built a > Gesswein emulator and have nothing to test it with :-) Do you have ESDI drives that have been formatted with a Dilog DQ696, and you need a DQ696 to use the drives with their existing format, or would it be OK to low level format the drives and any QBus ESDI controller would work, such as an Emulex QD21, or a RQD11 from various vendors? Where are you located, and what is a QBus ESDI controller worth to you? Here's an Emulex QD21 for around $100 in the US: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372959317948 Does that exceed your budget, or wrong location, or not compatible with your needs? I probably have more Dilog DQ696, Emulex QD21, and SDC-RQD11-EC controllers than I do working ESDI drives. At one point I had several working ESDI drives that have now gone bad over time while not being used. It's been a while since I tried spinning up any of them to see if any still work. --===============4793978419490730797==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 10 23:02:12 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 16:01:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2115880a-9b00-9984-299a-9a6c12de8cc8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0774645190607293310==" --===============0774645190607293310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I blame Google: it's complete trash now. Sellam On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 2:40 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/10/22 10:33 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > 4 words is not "Google-fu". > > Sometimes knowing /which/ /words/ to search for is the problem. > > I've also seen Google return extremely different search results for > different people. > > Let's assume good intention and benign mistake. No need to even > passively insult someone. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > --===============0774645190607293310==-- From stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca Mon Oct 10 23:55:20 2022 From: Stuff Received To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 19:47:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2115880a-9b00-9984-299a-9a6c12de8cc8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3014417372149579227==" --===============3014417372149579227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2022-10-10 17:39, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/10/22 10:33 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> 4 words is not "Google-fu". > > Sometimes knowing /which/ /words/ to search for is the problem. Indeed.  Also, I have added more words and received more search results.  One would expect the opposite. > I've also seen Google return extremely different search results for > different people. Google also tailors results to location and cookies.  (I always search in private mode.)  Not what it once was...(Sigh) N. --===============3014417372149579227==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Tue Oct 11 00:24:52 2022 From: Paul Kimpel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 17:24:33 -0700 Message-ID: <6ecd49ea-13fa-87eb-b778-0a5b3334d1ca@digm.com> In-Reply-To: <895bbd6c-18cd-6731-2a29-eb4a7aebad48@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5675579468358802519==" --===============5675579468358802519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *From:* Jon Elson via cctalk *Subject:* [cctalk] Re: Bendix G-15 Restoration *Date:* Monday, October 10, 2022 at 7:35 AM *To:* Christian Corti via cctalk *Cc:* Jon Elson > >> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022, Paul Kimpel wrote: >>> modify a lot of the software. Timing dependencies aside, G-15=20 >>> instructions didn't have addresses -- they had "timing numbers" that=20 >>> effectively told the hardware how long to wait before reading or=20 >>> writing a word on the drum. > > Well, No, I believe that each instruction had the address of the next=20 > instruction in it.=C2=A0 That allowed you to jump to another track for the = > next instruction in the sequence.=C2=A0 Instruction addresses were not that= =20 > many bits. > > Jon Not quite. A G-15 instruction had two fields, T and N, each seven bits,=20 that looked like sector addresses, and you could often think of them as=20 sector addresses, but doing so carelessly could get you into trouble. N is the easiest one to understand. That was the sector "address" of the=20 next instruction to be executed, which except in the case of two=20 instructions had to be in the same line (track) of the drum as the=20 current instruction. The problem is that the field could hold values=20 from 0-127, but the words around the drum were numbered 0-107, and it=20 was perfectly valid (and sometimes even useful) to specify a value of N=20 in the range 108-127. What actually happened is that the processor subtracted the N value from=20 the word number of the current instruction (termed L), stored the=20 truncated difference in a seven-bit field of a hidden register on the=20 drum named the Command (CM) register, and then as each word passed the=20 read head of the drum, counted that field up until it overflowed its=20 seven-bit size. At that point the drum was in the correct position to=20 read the next instruction. Actually, it was a bit more complicated than that, because the=20 arithmetic in CM was being done modulo 128, but the word addressing was=20 modulo 108. The processor handled that by adding an additional 20 to the=20 CM field if the drum passed word 107 before the count overflowed. There=20 was an additional complication in that the adjustment did not take place=20 if you executed an instruction from word 107, in which case the=20 programmer had to bias their timing numbers by 20 instead to accomplish=20 the adjustment. It was a lovely machine to program. You can read how the sausage was made in the Theory of Operation manual,=20 section C-17, starting on page 40 (page 46 of the PDF): http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bendix/g-15/60121600_G15_Theory_Of_Operation_Nov64.p= df There were 20 108-word lines (0-19) and four 4-word lines (20-23) on the=20 drum that software could access, but instructions could be executed only=20 from lines 0-5, 19, and 23. A register in the processor determined which=20 line was currently selected to execute instructions, so execution stayed=20 on that line until it was changed by either a Select Command Line/Mark=20 Exit or Select Command Line/Return Exit instruction. Those were the only=20 ways to branch from line to line. The T field in an instruction can be thought of as the operand address,=20 and often effectively was, but you had to be careful with that idea,=20 too. It was called T because it was the "timing number" for the=20 instruction's execution. Instructions had two modes, Immediate and=20 Deferred, determined by the I/D bit in the instruction word. Deferred mode is easier to understand. Like N, the difference between it=20 and L was stored in a field of CM and counted up until it overflowed. At=20 that point the processor would access the word(s) under the read and/or=20 write head on the line(s) selected by the S and D fields of the=20 instruction. In this mode, T effectively told the processor how long to=20 wait until the operand word(s) were in position, so it was very much=20 like an operand address. In Immediate mode for most instructions, however, the operand data=20 started at L+1, the word number immediately after that of the=20 instruction. T specified how many words the instruction would process,=20 but in a weird way -- processing started with the word at L+1 but ended=20 at T-1. A really lovely machine to program. In Immediate mode for a few instructions (multiply, divide, the shifts),=20 T actually specified the number of word-times the instruction would=20 take, but instead of processing words from the storage lines on the=20 drum, it processed them in the double-precision registers, which were=20 also on the drum. For shifts, each two counts of T would shift one bit;=20 for multiply and divide, each two counts of T would develop an=20 additional bit of the result. See the ToO manual, section D-10, D-11,=20 D-12, and D-13 starting on page 53. So that's why I say the G-15 didn't have addresses. But then, it didn't=20 really have op codes, either. For some insight into how advantageous use could be made of non-obvious=20 values for the N and T fields in G-15 instructions, see this blog post=20 describing a program that would clear the G-15 drum memory, its=20 registers, and a couple of other things in just four words: https://retro-emulation.blogspot.com/2022/06/ Paul --===============5675579468358802519==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 00:53:47 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 20:53:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6000787947154523308==" --===============6000787947154523308== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front panel to the chassis? Is there anyone who has a spare clips/clamps hardware to attach a PDP 8a console to the chassis? I picked up the donated PDP 8a mentioned earlier on this list, I got it up and running. I need to track down the hardware to attach the front panel to the chassis. I do have spares of the hardware that attaches the ON/OFF panel to the chassis. AS with all "free" donations it's the final mile that costs the big $$ Thanks Bill --===============6000787947154523308==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 06:01:12 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 01:00:48 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6812599824118720047==" --===============6812599824118720047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit theres 3d print models made of them theres the orig design with does not prit very well and a modified design thats better list forget where might be buried on this site? https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/repair.php On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 7:53 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front > panel to the chassis? > > Is there anyone who has a spare clips/clamps hardware to attach a PDP 8a > console to the chassis? > > I picked up the donated PDP 8a mentioned earlier on this list, I got it up > and running. I need to track down the hardware to attach the front panel > to the chassis. I do have spares of the hardware that attaches the ON/OFF > panel to the chassis. > > AS with all "free" donations it's the final mile that costs the big $$ > > Thanks > > Bill > --===============6812599824118720047==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 06:37:23 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 23:37:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3277fe05-34eb-ae53-966a-a7d73238f120@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8533900189429163730==" --===============8533900189429163730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/10/2022 11:00 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > theres 3d print models made of them theres the orig design with does not > prit very well and a modified design thats better list forget where > might be buried on this site? > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/repair.php I tried to do one here: https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php but I haven't actually printed or used it yet. (I have the original parts, and no free access to a 3D printer at the moment.) Vince > On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 7:53 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front >> panel to the chassis? >> >> Is there anyone who has a spare clips/clamps hardware to attach a PDP 8a >> console to the chassis? >> >> I picked up the donated PDP 8a mentioned earlier on this list, I got it up >> and running. I need to track down the hardware to attach the front panel >> to the chassis. I do have spares of the hardware that attaches the ON/OFF >> panel to the chassis. >> >> AS with all "free" donations it's the final mile that costs the big $$ >> >> Thanks >> >> Bill >> --===============8533900189429163730==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Oct 11 06:52:09 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 23:51:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3236722952344655207==" --===============3236722952344655207== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have, or know of a reasonably priced supplier of good clean used, or new 8" floppy diskette boxes? The kind made of plastic like these? https://www.ebay.com/itm/134258177087 I have one 8" box with Xerox software in which the plastic literally crumbling. The price this seller wants for the case itself is reasonable but I find the price of shipping outrageous. Total shipping price for three boxes is shown to be $21.35. I may be crazy, but this seems nuts for something so light. Thank You Don Resor --===============3236722952344655207==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 09:07:13 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 05:06:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAIGMtoXotSRMkcf0qRfoDiEBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8767996737814764527==" --===============8767996737814764527== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don...it's the package size not the weight. On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 2:52 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have, or know of a reasonably priced supplier of good clean > used, or new 8" floppy diskette boxes? The kind made of plastic like > these? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134258177087 > > I have one 8" box with Xerox software in which the plastic literally > crumbling. > > The price this seller wants for the case itself is reasonable but I find > the > price of shipping outrageous. > > Total shipping price for three boxes is shown to be $21.35. > > I may be crazy, but this seems nuts for something so light. > > Thank You > > Don Resor > > --===============8767996737814764527==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 13:01:13 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 06:00:55 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAIGMtoXotSRMkcf0qRfoDiEBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5787356254139868931==" --===============5787356254139868931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 10 Oct 2022, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have, or know of a reasonably priced supplier of good clean > used, or new 8" floppy diskette boxes? The kind made of plastic like these? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134258177087 > > I have one 8" box with Xerox software in which the plastic literally > crumbling. > > The price this seller wants for the case itself is reasonable but I find the > price of shipping outrageous. > > Total shipping price for three boxes is shown to be $21.35. > > I may be crazy, but this seems nuts for something so light. > Don, it's not the weight, it's the size. They use a thing called "dimensional weight" for large, light packages. (and I agree, it's stupidly expensive) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============5787356254139868931==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:17:01 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3277fe05-34eb-ae53-966a-a7d73238f120@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4235255928565324385==" --===============4235255928565324385== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a pretty good 3d printer, I.can at least try. I imagine the standard front panel cover clips should be easy enough, but the pdp8a needs something stronger with screws and bolts, right? I need to check the enclosure hardware documents On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 2:37 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/10/2022 11:00 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > theres 3d print models made of them theres the orig design with does not > > prit very well and a modified design thats better list forget where > > might be buried on this site? > > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/repair.php > > I tried to do one here: > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > but I haven't actually printed or used it yet. (I have the original > parts, and no free access to a 3D printer at the moment.) > > Vince > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 7:53 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front > >> panel to the chassis? > >> > >> Is there anyone who has a spare clips/clamps hardware to attach a PDP 8a > >> console to the chassis? > >> > >> I picked up the donated PDP 8a mentioned earlier on this list, I got it > up > >> and running. I need to track down the hardware to attach the front > panel > >> to the chassis. I do have spares of the hardware that attaches the > ON/OFF > >> panel to the chassis. > >> > >> AS with all "free" donations it's the final mile that costs the big $$ > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Bill > >> > > --===============4235255928565324385==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:18:12 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:17:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7241742184522156146==" --===============7241742184522156146== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of you're near kennettsquare, PAI have a few On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 9:01 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2022, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > > Does anyone have, or know of a reasonably priced supplier of good clean > > used, or new 8" floppy diskette boxes? The kind made of plastic like > these? > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134258177087 > > > > I have one 8" box with Xerox software in which the plastic literally > > crumbling. > > > > The price this seller wants for the case itself is reasonable but I find > the > > price of shipping outrageous. > > > > Total shipping price for three boxes is shown to be $21.35. > > > > I may be crazy, but this seems nuts for something so light. > > > > Don, it's not the weight, it's the size. They use a thing called > "dimensional weight" for large, light packages. (and I agree, it's > stupidly expensive) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of > its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============7241742184522156146==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:58:59 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:58:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3683652254286476746==" --===============3683652254286476746== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/11/22 09:00, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2022, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > >> Does anyone have, or know of a reasonably priced supplier of good clean >> used, or new 8" floppy diskette boxes?  The kind made of plastic like >> these? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/134258177087 >> >> I have one 8" box with Xerox software in which the plastic literally >> crumbling. >> >> The price this seller wants for the case itself is reasonable but I >> find the >> price of shipping outrageous. >> >> Total shipping price for three boxes is shown to be $21.35. >> >> I may be crazy, but this seems nuts for something so light. >> > > Don, it's not the weight, it's the size.  They use a thing called > "dimensional weight" for large, light packages.  (and I agree, it's > stupidly expensive) > eBay has always been rather stupid when it comes to shipping. I have seen many people who are actually making their profit from the shipping rather than the actual item for sale. On the other side of the coin... I once tried to sell a couple Chilton's car manuals. The shipping price I quoted was the cost of a "If it fits, it ships" USPS envelope. eBay refused to let me do it claiming the shipping charges were too high. I haven't tried selling anything on eBay since. (and I have a lot of stuff that just screams to be sold there!!) bill --===============3683652254286476746==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Oct 11 14:00:58 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:00:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2908675158829254037==" --===============2908675158829254037== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/22 09:17, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Of you're near kennettsquare, PAI have a few > I have piles of them. Unfortunately, they are all full of disks loaded with data. :-) bill --===============2908675158829254037==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Oct 11 14:08:07 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 07:07:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808FF86DA1BCC61D9F61FEED239=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5711968726267381464==" --===============5711968726267381464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is the ability to ship via Media Mail for documentation. I try to buy = documents this way, as well as good ole vinyl records. Several years ago eBay decided they wanted to "profit" from shipping costs. = This was supposedly to alleviate shipping cost gouging. I doubt this has hel= ped much. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 6:59 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Bill Gunshannon Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases eBay has always been rather stupid when it comes to shipping. I have seen many people who are actually making their profit from the shippin= g rather than the actual item for sale. On the other side of the coin... I once tried to sell a couple Chilton's car= manuals. The shipping price I quoted was the cost of a "If it fits, it ship= s" USPS envelope. eBay refused to let me do it claiming the shipping charges= were too high. I haven't tried selling anything on eBay since. (and I have= a lot of stuff that just screams to be sold there!!) bill --===============5711968726267381464==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Oct 11 14:09:10 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 07:08:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7621375077728269965==" --===============7621375077728269965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately I am in Los Angeles.... Thanks anyway Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 6:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Of you're near kennettsquare, PAI have a few On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 9:01 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2022, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > > Does anyone have, or know of a reasonably priced supplier of good > > clean used, or new 8" floppy diskette boxes? The kind made of > > plastic like > these? > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134258177087 > > > > I have one 8" box with Xerox software in which the plastic literally > > crumbling. > > > > The price this seller wants for the case itself is reasonable but I > > find > the > > price of shipping outrageous. > > > > Total shipping price for three boxes is shown to be $21.35. > > > > I may be crazy, but this seems nuts for something so light. > > > > Don, it's not the weight, it's the size. They use a thing called > "dimensional weight" for large, light packages. (and I agree, it's > stupidly expensive) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of > its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value > database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============7621375077728269965==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 14:16:34 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 07:16:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAJcZJF4wGh5Dm4S5jNBSGQMBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1176084106579245889==" --===============1176084106579245889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, eBay charges the seller the same commission on shipping as it does for the item price, and the taxes charged to the buyer as well. Sometimes if you contact the buyer and ask them nicely if they can add a cheaper shipping option they will oblige you, but some can't use UPS or FedEx for practical reasons (no drop-off point near them, for example). Bottom line though, you aren't going to be able to get something like this for less than $10 shipping. Sellam On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 7:08 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > There is the ability to ship via Media Mail for documentation. I try to > buy documents this way, as well as good ole vinyl records. > > Several years ago eBay decided they wanted to "profit" from shipping > costs. This was supposedly to alleviate shipping cost gouging. I doubt > this has helped much. > > Don Resor > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 6:59 AM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Bill Gunshannon > Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases > > > eBay has always been rather stupid when it comes to shipping. > I have seen many people who are actually making their profit from the > shipping rather than the actual item for sale. > > On the other side of the coin... I once tried to sell a couple Chilton's > car manuals. The shipping price I quoted was the cost of a "If it fits, it > ships" USPS envelope. eBay refused to let me do it claiming the shipping > charges were too high. I haven't tried selling anything on eBay since. > (and I have a lot of stuff that just screams to be sold there!!) > > bill > > > > --===============1176084106579245889==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Oct 11 14:22:10 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 07:21:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580B88EB42980DA6C1FE29EED239=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3420983261524536931==" --===============3420983261524536931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a long shelf filled with boxes of 8" floppy diskettes. Data on many a= nd a bunch of NOS sealed product I have held onto. From the crazy asking pri= ces I am seeing on eBay (As if they are collector's items/antiques), I could = sell them by the box for the same price Xerox charged during the 1980s and lo= ok reasonably priced compared to other sellers. I look at this stuff now and think how did I manage to amass so much stuff. I've also misplaced my Xerox 820-II. I found the Xerox u07 8" DD FDD with th= e 8" HDD Combo box, but where did I put the rest of it, ugh. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 7:01 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Bill Gunshannon Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases On 10/11/22 09:17, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Of you're near kennettsquare, PAI have a few >=20 I have piles of them. Unfortunately, they are all full of disks loaded with = data. :-) bill --===============3420983261524536931==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Oct 11 14:29:15 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 07:29:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3034334119414365738==" --===============3034334119414365738== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have contacted the seller, and kindly asked as a gentlemanly as I possibly = could. I'll see what happens Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 7:16 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Yes, eBay charges the seller the same commission on shipping as it does for t= he item price, and the taxes charged to the buyer as well. Sometimes if you contact the buyer and ask them nicely if they can add a chea= per shipping option they will oblige you, but some can't use UPS or FedEx for= practical reasons (no drop-off point near them, for example). Bottom line though, you aren't going to be able to get something like this fo= r less than $10 shipping. Sellam --===============3034334119414365738==-- From ethan@757.org Tue Oct 11 14:41:31 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:41:20 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAACyM+12dyTFIkna3LNMqTjABAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7825858670401570352==" --===============7825858670401570352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I have contacted the seller, and kindly asked as a gentlemanly as I possibl= y could. > I'll see what happens > Don Resor If the seller will use PirateShip that can knock down the price of=20 shipping quite a bit, UPS and USPS only. Good news is it, unlike so many=20 others, can actually give you a PDF that is 4" x 6" for a thermal label=20 printer without hassle. Charging fees on shipping is eBay's way of stopping people from listing=20 items for $1 with $49 shipping to get around paying ebay fees. - Ethan --===============7825858670401570352==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 14:53:31 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 07:53:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6630363635059886968==" --===============6630363635059886968== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/2022 6:16 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have a pretty good 3d printer, I.can at least try. I imagine the > standard front panel cover clips should be easy enough, but the pdp8a needs > something stronger with screws and bolts, right? I need to check the > enclosure hardware documents Once you've printed one, it might be possible to cast additional ones more quickly and the result might be stronger. That metal bezel with the two PCB inside is rather heavy for a plastic mount. Vince > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 2:37 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 10/10/2022 11:00 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >>> theres 3d print models made of them theres the orig design with does not >>> prit very well and a modified design thats better list forget where >>> might be buried on this site? >>> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/repair.php >> >> I tried to do one here: >> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php >> but I haven't actually printed or used it yet. (I have the original >> parts, and no free access to a 3D printer at the moment.) >> >> Vince >> >>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 7:53 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front >>>> panel to the chassis? >>>> >>>> Is there anyone who has a spare clips/clamps hardware to attach a PDP 8a >>>> console to the chassis? >>>> >>>> I picked up the donated PDP 8a mentioned earlier on this list, I got it >> up >>>> and running. I need to track down the hardware to attach the front >> panel >>>> to the chassis. I do have spares of the hardware that attaches the >> ON/OFF >>>> panel to the chassis. >>>> >>>> AS with all "free" donations it's the final mile that costs the big $$ >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >> >> --===============6630363635059886968==-- From coryheisterkamp@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 15:01:10 2022 From: Cory Heisterkamp To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:00:55 -0500 Message-ID: <03473996-6F7A-4C00-BDE5-A4EFFA1F6B8E@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAIGMtoXotSRMkcf0qRfoDiEBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7061149097527915826==" --===============7061149097527915826== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 11, 2022, at 1:51 AM, D. Resor via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > Does anyone have, or know of a reasonably priced supplier of good clean > used, or new 8" floppy diskette boxes? The kind made of plastic like these? >=20 > https://www.ebay.com/itm/134258177087 >=20 > I have one 8" box with Xerox software in which the plastic literally > crumbling. =20 >=20 > The price this seller wants for the case itself is reasonable but I find the > price of shipping outrageous. >=20 > Total shipping price for three boxes is shown to be $21.35. =20 >=20 > I may be crazy, but this seems nuts for something so light. >=20 > Thank You >=20 > Don Resor >=20 As others have mentioned, =E2=80=9Cdimensional weight=E2=80=9D is a thing, th= ough usually only applies once a package is over 12=E2=80=9Dx12=E2=80=9Dx12= =E2=80=9D, at least with USPS. However, this may just be the case of a cluele= ss eBayer*. The fact they have more than 10 available, plus the Make Offer bu= tton, suggests they might want to move these. I=E2=80=99d just reach out to t= he seller and ask him for his best price with shipping on as many as you=E2= =80=99d like; he can shoot you a private offer immediately. I find calculated= costs go askew when choosing multiples of an item if the seller hasn=E2=80= =99t set it up correctly. If the seller has a few =E2=80=9Cworthless=E2=80=9D diskettes laying around, = he can include one in each case and now the package qualifies under media mai= l rates. I won=E2=80=99t speak to the ethics of it, but it is technically all= owed per USPS=E2=80=99 rules. *As a seller, eBay has really messed up their listing interface. Unless I spe= cifically choose a flat rate option, or offer only a single service, I really= have no idea what the buyer is going to see for shipping, especially if they= have a PO box. In an attempt to simply things for new users, they have elimi= nated a number of useful options (which would reduce buyers=E2=80=99 costs), = or buried them in some obscure location. My wife, who rarely sells, has a tot= ally different listing interface than I do. In a recent case of wanting to of= fer something =E2=80=9Cfor pickup only=E2=80=9D, the only way to choose that = option was via their app on a smartphone. It=E2=80=99s a mess. -C --===============7061149097527915826==-- From bob@jfcl.com Tue Oct 11 15:17:14 2022 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:17:11 -0700 Message-ID: <007d01d8dd84$8971fc80$9c55f580$@com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4468011215481547231==" --===============4468011215481547231== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Bill Degnan Mbilldegnan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front >panel to the chassis? Assuming you're talking about the KC8-A (the panel with the push buttons an= d 7 segment displays) then I think there were at least two versions. The old= er version was pressed onto those plastic ball things that all DEC "pop panel= s" used. That didn't work very well, because those plastic pop panel mounts = are super easy to break. There was a later version that mounted with two metal brackets. The bracke= ts screwed to the rack rails and were bent to conform to the inside contour o= f the KC8. There's a setscrew in each bracket that attached it to the KC8, a= nd there's a small hole drilled in the bottom of both sides of the KC8 so you= could access the screw from the outside. Annoyingly the PDP-11/04 and 34, which had a panel that was mechanically n= early identical, used an entirely differently mounting scheme, so there's no = help there. I've never seen one of these brackets nor a mechanical drawing for one, but= if you find out anything please let me know. I have an 8/A in the garage wi= th the front panel held on by wire ties ('cause I don't have anything better!= ). Bob --===============4468011215481547231==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 11 15:17:23 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:20 -0600 Message-ID: <51fc6116-2ed2-f6b4-29fd-c6c88268a692@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1409190280821438904==" --===============1409190280821438904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/10/22 5:47 PM, Stuff Received via cctalk wrote: > Indeed.  Also, I have added more words and received more search > results.  One would expect the opposite. > > Google also tailors results to location and cookies.  (I always search > in private mode.)  Not what it once was...(Sigh) Agreed all around with both you and Sellam. I have pontificated writing my own search engine. But I've never found neither sufficient round-2-its nor motivation to do so. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1409190280821438904==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 15:23:10 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:22:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55808FF86DA1BCC61D9F61FEED239=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7020923723498416874==" --===============7020923723498416874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On the other side of the coin... I once tried to sell a couple > Chilton's car manuals. The shipping price I quoted was the cost > of a "If it fits, it ships" USPS envelope. eBay refused to let > me do it claiming the shipping charges were too high. I haven't > tried selling anything on eBay since. (and I have a lot of stuff > that just screams to be sold there!!) "Media mail" is the only practical option for those. And, blank, or user-written diskettes don't qualify; according to the post-office, only commercially written disks. --===============7020923723498416874==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 15:25:30 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 11:25:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007d01d8dd84$8971fc80$9c55f580$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4238606390857948081==" --===============4238606390857948081== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Yup that's the one I have, thanks. At least I am not alone. I bet this topic has come up in the past here. Bill On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 11:17 AM Robert Armstrong via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >Bill Degnan Mbilldegnan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front > >panel to the chassis? > > Assuming you're talking about the KC8-A (the panel with the push buttons > and 7 segment displays) then I think there were at least two versions. The > older version was pressed onto those plastic ball things that all DEC "pop > panels" used. That didn't work very well, because those plastic pop panel > mounts are super easy to break. > > There was a later version that mounted with two metal brackets. The > brackets screwed to the rack rails and were bent to conform to the inside > contour of the KC8. There's a setscrew in each bracket that attached it to > the KC8, and there's a small hole drilled in the bottom of both sides of > the KC8 so you could access the screw from the outside. > > Annoyingly the PDP-11/04 and 34, which had a panel that was > mechanically nearly identical, used an entirely differently mounting > scheme, so there's no help there. > > I've never seen one of these brackets nor a mechanical drawing for one, > but if you find out anything please let me know. I have an 8/A in the > garage with the front panel held on by wire ties ('cause I don't have > anything better!). > > Bob > > > --===============4238606390857948081==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 15:25:44 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:25:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <03473996-6F7A-4C00-BDE5-A4EFFA1F6B8E@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2268493252236366912==" --===============2268493252236366912== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > If the seller has a few “worthless” diskettes laying around, he can > include one in each case and now the package qualifies under media mail > rates. I won’t speak to the ethics of it, but it is technically > allowed per USPS’ rules. According to USPS, that is not acceptable for blank, nor even user-written diskettes. However, AOL disks would be acceptable! --===============2268493252236366912==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 15:28:50 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 16:28:28 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007d01d8dd84$8971fc80$9c55f580$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5692206851830658261==" --===============5692206851830658261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:17 PM Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Annoyingly the PDP-11/04 and 34, which had a panel that was mechanically= nearly identical, used an entirely differently mounting scheme, so there's n= o help there. > I wonder if that's because on the 11/04 and 11/34 the boards go in from the top of the box whereas on the 8/a the boards go in from the front. Therefore you have to remove the frontpanel to insert/remove boards on the 8/a but you don't on the 11's. The 11's panel is rarely removed. -tony --===============5692206851830658261==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 15:29:24 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 16:29:02 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3188899645976780899==" --===============3188899645976780899== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > If the seller has a few “worthless” diskettes laying around, he can > > include one in each case and now the package qualifies under media mail > > rates. I won’t speak to the ethics of it, but it is technically > > allowed per USPS’ rules. > > According to USPS, that is not acceptable for blank, nor even user-written > diskettes. > > However, AOL disks would be acceptable! When did AOL send out 8" disks? -tony --===============3188899645976780899==-- From bob@jfcl.com Tue Oct 11 15:34:26 2022 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <008401d8dd86$f3086740$d91935c0$@com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6681658900828758219==" --===============6681658900828758219== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Tony Duell >I wonder if that's because on the 11/04 and 11/34 the boards go in >from the top of the box whereas on the 8/a the boards go in from the >front. Therefore you have to remove the frontpanel to insert/remove >boards on the 8/a but you don't on the 11's. The 11's panel is rarely >removed. Yeah, kind of. I actually have an 11/04 too, and the console there just sc= rews on to the front of the BA11-K. Since the BA11-K has slides and pulls ou= t of the rack and (as you said) the boards are accessed from the top, there's= no need to ever remove the front panel. Don't know what the BA11-L (that's the short box for the 11/04) did. I don= 't think it had slides, but I'm not sure. The BA8-C, OTOH, doesn't have slides and (as you said) the cards go in from= the front. So you need to remove the front panel anytime you want access to= the cards, which is a major pain. Bob --===============6681658900828758219==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 15:37:01 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 16:36:38 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <008401d8dd86$f3086740$d91935c0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0747136485199036594==" --===============0747136485199036594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:34 PM Robert Armstrong wrote: > Don't know what the BA11-L (that's the short box for the 11/04) did. I d= on't think it had slides, but I'm not sure. > Is that the 3U (5.25" high) one? If so, there's a metal sleeve that is screwed in the rack. The entire chasis pulls out the front, the boards go in from the left side. Again you rarely have to remoev the frontpanel. -tony --===============0747136485199036594==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 15:38:56 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:38:45 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2612439798541248918==" --===============2612439798541248918== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> If the seller has a few “worthless” diskettes laying around, he can >>> include one in each case and now the package qualifies under media mail >>> rates. I won’t speak to the ethics of it, but it is technically >>> allowed per USPS’ rules. >> >> According to USPS, that is not acceptable for blank, nor even user-written >> diskettes. >> >> However, AOL disks would be acceptable! On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Tony Duell wrote: > When did AOL send out 8" disks? They didn't. But, a CD-ROM, a 5.25, or a 3.5" disk will fit inside an 8" box. It doesn't have to be a tight fit. --===============2612439798541248918==-- From bob@jfcl.com Tue Oct 11 15:40:31 2022 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:40:35 -0700 Message-ID: <008d01d8dd87$ce8c1500$6ba43f00$@com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1126635170269334900==" --===============1126635170269334900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Tony Duell >Is that the 3U (5.25" high) one? Yes.. >If so, there's a metal sleeve that is screwed in the rack. Oh yeah, that would make sense. There was a QBUS chassis that worked the s= ame way. Was that a BA11-N? I forget - too many years have gone by :) Bob --===============1126635170269334900==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 15:41:54 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:41:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2093289941734338578==" --===============2093289941734338578== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> If the seller has a few “worthless” diskettes laying around, he can >>> include one in each case and now the package qualifies under media mail >>> rates. I won’t speak to the ethics of it, but it is technically >>> allowed per USPS’ rules. >> According to USPS, that is not acceptable for blank, nor even user-written >> diskettes. >> However, AOL disks would be acceptable! On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Tony Duell wrote: > When did AOL send out 8" disks? The box does not have to be packed full. A single CD-ROM or 3.5" disk in each box for 10 8" is OK. --===============2093289941734338578==-- From coryheisterkamp@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 15:42:13 2022 From: Cory Heisterkamp To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:41:57 -0500 Message-ID: <2B99FE46-21E8-4B2B-AF91-25C669C83EAA@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3712326319323670486==" --===============3712326319323670486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: >> If the seller has a few =E2=80=9Cworthless=E2=80=9D diskettes laying aroun= d, he can >> include one in each case and now the package qualifies under media mail >> rates. I won=E2=80=99t speak to the ethics of it, but it is technically >> allowed per USPS=E2=80=99 rules. >=20 > According to USPS, that is not acceptable for blank, nor even user-written > diskettes. >=20 > However, AOL disks would be acceptable! >=20 Finally, a good use for AOL disks : ) Try as I might, I can find no restriction on mailing user-written media. Blan= k media, no. But I believe user-written is okay as it=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cprer= ecorded=E2=80=9D. https://pe.usps.com/Archive/PDF/DMMArchive20050106/173.pdf "Computer-readable media containing prerecorded information and guides or scr= ipts prepared solely for use with such media."=20 --===============3712326319323670486==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 15:59:27 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:59:15 -0600 Message-ID: <779e3b13-6474-a6a1-9439-4f5190eb73d7@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7726071951433408967==" --===============7726071951433408967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-10-10 5:01 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I blame Google: it's complete trash now. > > Sellam > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 2:40 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 10/10/22 10:33 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> 4 words is not "Google-fu". >> >> Sometimes knowing /which/ /words/ to search for is the problem. >> >> I've also seen Google return extremely different search results for >> different people. >> >> Let's assume good intention and benign mistake. No need to even >> passively insult someone. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> It is not trash. PAID sites get first pick in sorting, I suspect. On the tablet,it picks what it thinks you want."neeps and haggis" might get you "need a bag" rather than a scottish dinner Using the other search engine. Now Amazon and ebay, are trash. Ben. --===============7726071951433408967==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 16:00:19 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8101195975378837149==" --===============8101195975378837149== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the USPS Domestic Mail Manual, section 170, subsection 4.1(i): "Computer-readable media containing prerecorded information and guides or scripts prepared solely for use with such media." Sellam On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 8:23 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On the other side of the coin... I once tried to sell a couple > > Chilton's car manuals. The shipping price I quoted was the cost > > of a "If it fits, it ships" USPS envelope. eBay refused to let > > me do it claiming the shipping charges were too high. I haven't > > tried selling anything on eBay since. (and I have a lot of stuff > > that just screams to be sold there!!) > > "Media mail" is the only practical option for those. > > And, blank, or user-written diskettes don't qualify; according to the > post-office, only commercially written disks. > --===============8101195975378837149==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 16:03:55 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:03:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <779e3b13-6474-a6a1-9439-4f5190eb73d7@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7588857194458615722==" --===============7588857194458615722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why would a paid link come up when searching for something vintage computery? The results are not tailored to suit the searcher, but the advertisers, regardless of the search terms. Hence: trash. And you're not going to convince me otherwise. Google is the Deathstar of the internet. Sellam On Tue, Oct 11, 2022, 8:59 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-10-10 5:01 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > I blame Google: it's complete trash now. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 2:40 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 10/10/22 10:33 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >>> 4 words is not "Google-fu". > >> > >> Sometimes knowing /which/ /words/ to search for is the problem. > >> > >> I've also seen Google return extremely different search results for > >> different people. > >> > >> Let's assume good intention and benign mistake. No need to even > >> passively insult someone. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Grant. . . . > >> unix || die > >> > > It is not trash. PAID sites get first pick in sorting, I suspect. > On the tablet,it picks what it thinks you want."neeps and haggis" might > get you "need a bag" rather than a scottish dinner > Using the other search engine. > Now Amazon and ebay, are trash. > Ben. > > --===============7588857194458615722==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 16:04:04 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:03:41 -0600 Message-ID: <9d4b2e7b-c32e-fdcd-e845-4ac51356cda1@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0160683475864809727==" --===============0160683475864809727== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-10-11 8:16 a.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Yes, eBay charges the seller the same commission on shipping as it does for > the item price, and the taxes charged to the buyer as well. > > Sometimes if you contact the buyer and ask them nicely if they can add a > cheaper shipping option they will oblige you, but some can't use UPS or > FedEx for practical reasons (no drop-off point near them, for example). > > Bottom line though, you aren't going to be able to get something like this > for less than $10 shipping. Tack on a extra 0. Only china gives under $10 shipping. > Sellam Ben. --===============0160683475864809727==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:04:35 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:04:23 -0700 Message-ID: <0b1c2c0d-9967-d235-2042-c9ffb4aaeee1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <007d01d8dd84$8971fc80$9c55f580$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0835518992965256359==" --===============0835518992965256359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/11/2022 8:17 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Bill Degnan Mbilldegnan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front >> panel to the chassis? >=20 > Assuming you're talking about the KC8-A (the panel with the push buttons= and 7 segment displays) then I think there were at least two versions. The = older version was pressed onto those plastic ball things that all DEC "pop pa= nels" used. That didn't work very well, because those plastic pop panel moun= ts are super easy to break. >=20 > There was a later version that mounted with two metal brackets. The bra= ckets screwed to the rack rails and were bent to conform to the inside contou= r of the KC8. There's a setscrew in each bracket that attached it to the KC8= , and there's a small hole drilled in the bottom of both sides of the KC8 so = you could access the screw from the outside. Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular=20 blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the=20 recessed Allen screw. Vince --===============0835518992965256359==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:08:17 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:08:05 -0700 Message-ID: <35e08fad-5c69-bde2-7e10-2a2d50f095a3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <007d01d8dd84$8971fc80$9c55f580$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1173780413626476295==" --===============1173780413626476295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/11/2022 8:17 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Bill Degnan Mbilldegnan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Is there a 3D print gcode for the hardware that connects a PDP8a front >> panel to the chassis? >=20 > Assuming you're talking about the KC8-A (the panel with the push buttons= and 7 segment displays) then I think there were at least two versions. The = older version was pressed onto those plastic ball things that all DEC "pop pa= nels" used. That didn't work very well, because those plastic pop panel moun= ts are super easy to break. >=20 > There was a later version that mounted with two metal brackets. The bra= ckets screwed to the rack rails and were bent to conform to the inside contou= r of the KC8. There's a setscrew in each bracket that attached it to the KC8= , and there's a small hole drilled in the bottom of both sides of the KC8 so = you could access the screw from the outside. Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular=20 blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the=20 KC8's recessed Allen screw. Vince --===============1173780413626476295==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:09:18 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 18:08:55 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0b1c2c0d-9967-d235-2042-c9ffb4aaeee1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8312658797684662313==" --===============8312658797684662313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:04 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular > blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the > recessed Allen screw. Why on earth would you 3D print something like that? Machining it from a metal block would be a lot stronger. -tony --===============8312658797684662313==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:12:52 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:12:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8784840900395419548==" --===============8784840900395419548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not everyone has a fully tooled machine shop, perhaps? On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 10:09 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:04 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > wrote: > > > Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular > > blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the > > recessed Allen screw. > > Why on earth would you 3D print something like that? Machining it from > a metal block would be a lot stronger. > > -tony > --===============8784840900395419548==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:15:10 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 18:14:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0370481574842830368==" --===============0370481574842830368== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:12 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Not everyone has a fully tooled machine shop, perhaps? And not everyone has a 3D printer. Moreover, a small lathe/mill capable of making that sorr of part is probably cheaper than a 3D printer and will last a lot longer. -tony --===============0370481574842830368==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:17:23 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:17:13 -0700 Message-ID: <392a859f-4ad1-f372-cf18-b6ac325c66b4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7123662932354283144==" --===============7123662932354283144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/2022 10:08 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:04 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > wrote: > >> Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular >> blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the >> recessed Allen screw. > > Why on earth would you 3D print something like that? Machining it from > a metal block would be a lot stronger. The DEC part is essentially bent bar stock, with a nut press-fit into it. Also easy to to do if you have the tooling. I know a lot more folks with a 3D printer than I do the folks with metalwork experience. Vince --===============7123662932354283144==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 17:20:59 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 11:20:45 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9139547712866850805==" --===============9139547712866850805== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-10-11 11:14 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:12 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Not everyone has a fully tooled machine shop, perhaps? > > And not everyone has a 3D printer. > > Moreover, a small lathe/mill capable of making that sorr of part is > probably cheaper than a 3D printer and will last a lot longer. > > -tony Well at one time you could find a small machine shop, to do all this stuff. Other than cheap PCB's, I am not sure if we are better off now than in 1975. Ben. --===============9139547712866850805==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 17:49:13 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:48:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1621848382127823078==" --===============1621848382127823078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:12 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Not everyone has a fully tooled machine shop, perhaps? > > And not everyone has a 3D printer. > > Moreover, a small lathe/mill capable of making that sorr of part is > probably cheaper than a 3D printer and will last a lot longer. > A good and usable 3D printer is going to be a lot cheaper than even the worst imported table-top metal working lathe. The mills you can buy for a simliar price won't cut non-ferrous metals for crap, and won't cut ferrous metals at all. I would posit that more people have 3D printers at home than machine tools. :) If someone wants to provide me with a drawing, I'd be happy to design a 3D model of the part and print a few of them for testing. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============1621848382127823078==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 17:50:05 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:49:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <392a859f-4ad1-f372-cf18-b6ac325c66b4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3449716133438560567==" --===============3449716133438560567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 10/11/2022 10:08 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:04 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular >>> blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the >>> recessed Allen screw. >>=20 >> Why on earth would you 3D print something like that? Machining it from >> a metal block would be a lot stronger. > > The DEC part is essentially bent bar stock, with a nut press-fit into it.=20 > Also easy to to do if you have the tooling. I know a lot more folks with a = 3D=20 > printer than I do the folks with metalwork experience. > Got a photo of the part Vince? tnx. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3449716133438560567==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:17:54 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 11:17:38 -0700 Message-ID: <1b30439c-d84d-6912-fd75-c16a3ac195f0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3316778355886150423==" --===============3316778355886150423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/2022 10:48 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > If someone wants to provide me with a drawing, I'd be happy to design a > 3D model of the part and print a few of them for testing. Here's a pointer to mine: https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php https://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/8AClip/8aClip.jpg The two holes in the base take screws to mount to the rack. Depending on left vs right, you would drill and tap the indentations on one side or the other. I could swear there was a recent (in the last year) conversation with Michael Thompson and others about this on VCForum, but it must have been before the VCForum site moved, as the search tool didn't find it. Anyway, the original is bent bar stock, with notching near the apex, and a nut press-fit/spot welded where I've drawn an indent. I've drawn it as a triangular plastic block in an effort to make it more structural. A recessed screw in the KC8-A screws into the nut from the bottom to attach the panel on each side. Vince --===============3316778355886150423==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Oct 11 19:23:20 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 19:23:08 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1b30439c-d84d-6912-fd75-c16a3ac195f0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1376865026478151437==" --===============1376865026478151437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A local machine shop or even a college machine shop could knock out 10 of tho= se in an hour probably in steel. It=E2=80=99s worth investigating i think. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 11, 2022, at 11:17, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/11/2022 10:48 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> If someone wants to provide me with a drawing, I'd be happy to design a 3D= model of the part and print a few of them for testing. >=20 > Here's a pointer to mine: > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > https://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/8AClip/8aClip.jpg >=20 > The two holes in the base take screws to mount to the rack. Depending on l= eft vs right, you would drill and tap the indentations on one side or the oth= er. >=20 > I could swear there was a recent (in the last year) conversation with Micha= el Thompson and others about this on VCForum, but it must have been before th= e VCForum site moved, as the search tool didn't find it. >=20 > Anyway, the original is bent bar stock, with notching near the apex, and a = nut press-fit/spot welded where I've drawn an indent. I've drawn it as a tri= angular plastic block in an effort to make it more structural. >=20 > A recessed screw in the KC8-A screws into the nut from the bottom to attach= the panel on each side. >=20 > Vince --===============1376865026478151437==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 19:28:18 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:27:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181A742EC7F8DDC926053ACE4239=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4275533256200522262==" --===============4275533256200522262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 8:23 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > A local machine shop or even a college machine shop could knock out 10 of t= hose in an hour probably in steel. It=E2=80=99s worth investigating i think. I reckon you could make a couple (i.e. what you need for one machine) from steel or brass in an hour using only hand tools. The only things you'd need that are not in every reasonable toolkit are a 6-32 UNC tap and whatever the correct tapping drill is for that. -tony --===============4275533256200522262==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Oct 11 19:32:15 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 19:32:00 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4019379158744131181==" --===============4019379158744131181== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Definitely! Easy-peasey. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 11, 2022, at 12:28, Tony Duell wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 8:23 PM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> A local machine shop or even a college machine shop could knock out 10 of = those in an hour probably in steel. It=E2=80=99s worth investigating i think. >=20 > I reckon you could make a couple (i.e. what you need for one machine) > from steel or brass in an hour using only hand tools. The only things > you'd need that are not in every reasonable toolkit are a 6-32 UNC tap > and whatever the correct tapping drill is for that. >=20 > -tony --===============4019379158744131181==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 19:37:35 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 12:37:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1b30439c-d84d-6912-fd75-c16a3ac195f0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4523612217858507164==" --===============4523612217858507164== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 10/11/2022 10:48 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> If someone wants to provide me with a drawing, I'd be happy to design a 3D >> model of the part and print a few of them for testing. > > Here's a pointer to mine: > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > https://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/8AClip/8aClip.jpg > > The two holes in the base take screws to mount to the rack. Depending on > left vs right, you would drill and tap the indentations on one side or the > other. > > Anyway, the original is bent bar stock, with notching near the apex, and a > nut press-fit/spot welded where I've drawn an indent. I've drawn it as a > triangular plastic block in an effort to make it more structural. > I wonder if a heat-set insert would allow you to replicate the original design... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============4523612217858507164==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 20:49:38 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:49:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2428613328448913729==" --===============2428613328448913729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/11/2022 12:37 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> Anyway, the original is bent bar stock, with notching near the apex, >> and a nut press-fit/spot welded where I've drawn an indent.  I've >> drawn it as a triangular plastic block in an effort to make it more >> structural. >> > I wonder if a heat-set insert would allow you to replicate the original > design... You mean in the metal, or the plastic? In the plastic, an insert would be more durable, but then again it would be another part you'd have to stock, rather than print. Vince --===============2428613328448913729==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 20:51:33 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:51:23 -0700 Message-ID: <0a69a4ec-da83-f027-5e37-9de8233d0595@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1883438693234986254==" --===============1883438693234986254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/2022 12:27 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > I reckon you could make a couple (i.e. what you need for one machine) > from steel or brass in an hour using only hand tools. The only things > you'd need that are not in every reasonable toolkit are a 6-32 UNC tap > and whatever the correct tapping drill is for that. Sure. Though you still need a technical drawing, which "comes with" the 3D printer (or other CNC) design. Vince --===============1883438693234986254==-- From trash80@internode.on.net Tue Oct 11 21:54:37 2022 From: Kevin Parker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 08:54:23 +1100 Message-ID: <09b201d8ddbc$06dd5bb0$14981310$@internode.on.net> In-Reply-To: <078001d8dc6f$a505c910$ef115b30$@internode.on.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6625753344454621842==" --===============6625753344454621842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for all the responses to my query - they're really helpful. I'm usually pretty handy with Google but must have lost the plot this day - I was trying "pmg5 build" - doh. Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Parker via cctalk Sent: Monday, 10 October 2022 17:15 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Kevin Parker Subject: [cctalk] Apple G5 Rebuild Hoping there's an Apple enthusiast out there somewhere please. A friend gave me a PM G5 which I'd love to add to the Apple corner of my collection. Must admit I love the G5 case. Problem is the internals are in a million pieces but everything seems to be there. Its not a basket case, more like a bucket case because I took the side off and basically poured it all out. My options are. > Toss it > Use the case for an ATX conversion > Use it for a letter box > Have a crack at fixing it. I like having a crack at fixing things first. I'm a preservationist first. Problem is my GoogleFoo can't find any diagrams, illustrations etc on how the internals are put together and I'm hoping some Apple person out there might have something or be able to point me somewhere. (I did find some photos at https://www.overclock.net/threads/power-mac-g5-build.1452312/ for a twin CPU model but I need more detail for a single chip 2.0 GHz PowerPC 970MP (G5) model.) Thank you. Kevin Parker --===============6625753344454621842==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 11 22:14:14 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Finding tar block size. Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 18:14:03 -0400 Message-ID: <2e9f4b57-3b7a-0660-8616-9f0c7b628ae8@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8451628765316608692==" --===============8451628765316608692== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trying to tar a directory and transfer it to my AT&T 7300 (SVR2 unix). Tar -tf works fine on the Mac OSX, but when I copy it over the Unix (not gnu) tar gives me a: Tar: blocksize = 20 directory checksum error When I try to tar -tf the file. Which usually means the block size is off. Any way I can check to see what the block size is on a modern system (like a Mac)? tar -tvf doesn't seem to tell me. Thanks! C --===============8451628765316608692==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 22:25:48 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:25:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5962858380712247885==" --===============5962858380712247885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 10/11/2022 12:37 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >>> Anyway, the original is bent bar stock, with notching near the apex, and = a=20 >>> nut press-fit/spot welded where I've drawn an indent.=C2=A0 I've drawn it= as a=20 >>> triangular plastic block in an effort to make it more structural. >>>=20 >> I wonder if a heat-set insert would allow you to replicate the original=20 >> design... > > You mean in the metal, or the plastic? > > In the plastic, an insert would be more durable, but then again it would be= =20 > another part you'd have to stock, rather than print. I was referring to the plastic. A PEM fastener would do the same job in=20 metal. #6-32 heat set inserts are very cheap, even on Amazon. (less than=20 $20 for 100 of them) g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============5962858380712247885==-- From Astrid@xrtc.net Tue Oct 11 22:31:10 2022 From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=A6strid?= smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] seeking: vme chassis, in seattle Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:24:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3417962916469076335==" --===============3417962916469076335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi folks, i'm looking for a vme chassis. i have a we 321sb vme cpu card (derivative of a 3b2) and it wants to run! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3b2-vme.jpg not super picky about the details but if it matches aesthetically that would be neat. should be functional, i'd rather not start another electronics project right now. also interested in peripheral cards. ideally, somewhere in seattle that's reasonably accessible by transit, or if you're willing to ship that would work too. thanks! -- æstrid smith (she/her) =<[ c y b e r ]>= antique telephone collectors association member #4870 --===============3417962916469076335==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 23:20:40 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 18:20:17 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6286139196993474871==" --===============6286139196993474871== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://www.yeggi.com/q/pdp+8/ --===============6286139196993474871==-- From vincent.slyngstad@gmail.com Tue Oct 11 23:21:40 2022 From: Vincent Slyngstad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 16:21:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7512587450211653670==" --===============7512587450211653670== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/11/2022 10:49 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: >> The DEC part is essentially bent bar stock, with a nut press-fit into=20 >> it. Also easy to to do if you have the tooling. I know a lot more=20 >> folks with a 3D printer than I do the folks with metalwork experience. >> > Got a photo of the part Vince? Bob Armstrong sent some pictures from Jack, which helped my find the=20 photos I knew were online somewhere: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/adding-a-programmers-console-to-a-p= dp-8-a.75942/#post-921828 Vince --===============7512587450211653670==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 12 01:02:56 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Finding tar block size. Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 19:01:55 -0600 Message-ID: <6d91461a-3a32-68aa-e0a6-b4fffe8eed21@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <2e9f4b57-3b7a-0660-8616-9f0c7b628ae8@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1433795500549431686==" --===============1433795500549431686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/22 4:14 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Trying to tar a directory and transfer it to my AT&T 7300 (SVR2 unix). > Tar -tf works fine on the Mac OSX, but when I copy it over the Unix (not > gnu) tar gives me a: I suspect the differences between the tar on OSX and SysV R2 are between non-trivial and significant. There /may/ be some command line options that you can add to tar on OSX to make something that SysV R2 will read. Maybe someone else here knows the answer. If not, I'd re-ask your question on the TUHS mailing list where there are more people who will probably know the command options nearly off the tip of their fingers. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1433795500549431686==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed Oct 12 02:42:04 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Finding tar block size. Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:41:39 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2e9f4b57-3b7a-0660-8616-9f0c7b628ae8@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2485966567376552521==" --===============2485966567376552521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:14 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Trying to tar a directory and transfer it to my AT&T 7300 (SVR2 unix). > Tar -tf works fine on the Mac OSX, but when I copy it over the Unix (not > gnu) tar gives me a: > > Tar: blocksize =3D 20 > directory checksum error > > When I try to tar -tf the file. Which usually means the block size is off. > > Any way I can check to see what the block size is on a modern system > (like a Mac)? tar -tvf doesn't seem to tell me. > All tar files are the same... except when they are different. MacOS uses libarchive tar. This version of tar creates the most modern tar files from the mid 90s. However, System V r2 pre-dates that. There's a lot of different tar formats, that are almost the same. I'm guessing that --format pax might work, but it might not. --format ustar like is the most interchangeable format, and will likely work. It's the least-restrictive format that will most likely work. --format v7 will almost certainly work, but has more restrictions that might run into, most likely its inability to use anything except numeric IDs. Warner --===============2485966567376552521==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 05:28:21 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PALM assembler (IBM 5110) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 00:27:59 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7828572137853182881==" --===============7828572137853182881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a note from Christian Corti last updated 2017: "..assembler listing generated with AS V1.41 from Alfred Arnold. ...which I have added a code generator for the PALM processor." I believe I've found a V1.42 of this on github. But the 5110 support is not listed in the github or pre-packaged builds. If Corti is available to help resurrect the notes on doing this, or if is more familiar with AS and can help get things going? Thanks! Steve --===============7828572137853182881==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 08:27:42 2022 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:26:42 +0100 Message-ID: <105d01d8de14$6c342ae0$449c80a0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181A742EC7F8DDC926053ACE4239=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5847338629203331596==" --===============5847338629203331596== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne S via cctalk > Sent: 11 October 2022 20:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Wayne S > Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware >=20 > A local machine shop or even a college machine shop could knock out 10 of > those in an hour probably in steel. It=E2=80=99s worth investigating i thin= k. Many small machine shops have now switched to laser cutting. I got a load of = paper tape stuff from a place that was getting rid of its "traditional" CNC s= tuff and switching to laser. A year or too ago I went on a 12" train ride at a garden center. When I asked= about where he got the train from, he said it was a downloadable design, whi= ch was then laser cut... ... even the wheels... I have a 3-d printer, but I don't have much in the way of metal working tools= . Its that way round because friends already had such things and would make s= tuff for me... Dave >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > > On Oct 11, 2022, at 11:17, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/11/2022 10:48 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> If someone wants to provide me with a drawing, I'd be happy to design a = 3D > model of the part and print a few of them for testing. > > > > Here's a pointer to mine: > > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > > https://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/8AClip/8aClip.jpg > > > > The two holes in the base take screws to mount to the rack. Depending on= left > vs right, you would drill and tap the indentations on one side or the other. > > > > I could swear there was a recent (in the last year) conversation with Mic= hael > Thompson and others about this on VCForum, but it must have been before the > VCForum site moved, as the search tool didn't find it. > > > > Anyway, the original is bent bar stock, with notching near the apex, and = a nut > press-fit/spot welded where I've drawn an indent. I've drawn it as a trian= gular > plastic block in an effort to make it more structural. > > > > A recessed screw in the KC8-A screws into the nut from the bottom to atta= ch > the panel on each side. > > > > Vince --===============5847338629203331596==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 10:38:18 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple G5 Rebuild Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:37:53 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2848706893638709193==" --===============2848706893638709193== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 at 22:54, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > Liam, don't be a d**k. I am sorry. :-( I did not think that calling out a bogus claim was a nasty thing to do, but I sit corrected, and I apologise. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============2848706893638709193==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Wed Oct 12 14:38:29 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 07:38:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3481210708850473904==" --===============3481210708850473904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 10/11/2022 10:49 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: >>> The DEC part is essentially bent bar stock, with a nut press-fit into it.= =20 >>> Also easy to to do if you have the tooling. I know a lot more folks with = a=20 >>> 3D printer than I do the folks with metalwork experience. >>>=20 >> Got a photo of the part Vince? > > Bob Armstrong sent some pictures from Jack, which helped my find the photos= I=20 > knew were online somewhere: > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/adding-a-programmers-console-to-a= -pdp-8-a.75942/#post-921828 > I get it now - the screw is perpendicular to the angled face, which means=20 a heat set insert would work out very well for a printed version of that=20 bracket. The original appears to be die cut and die formed. The nut used=20 also allows for some play in how the screw hole is going to line up... Thanks for the link! g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3481210708850473904==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 15:32:52 2022 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:32:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <392a859f-4ad1-f372-cf18-b6ac325c66b4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6094785470592323032==" --===============6094785470592323032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 1:17 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 10/11/2022 10:08 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:04 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular > >> blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the > >> recessed Allen screw. As a 3D Printed part, looks good. > > Why on earth would you 3D print something like that? Machining it from > > a metal block would be a lot stronger. Strength isn't the only parameter here. A plastic block is plenty strong enough unless you routinely pull down on your front panel when you are standing up. I _am_ a fan of small machine shops, but even though I have access to a very nice one at our Makerspace, it doesn't take me that long to download a part file and press "print". > The DEC part is essentially bent bar stock, with a nut press-fit into > it. Also easy to to do if you have the tooling. Yep. I have mine right here. My micrometer is elsewhere, but looks like it's made from 1/8" steel flat stock (with anti-corrosion plating), and has 3 bends (apex and two ends), a clip-nut for the machine screw in the cast face, and two mounting holes. Not hard to make with a mill (or a file) and a break. The clip nut is 10-32, BTW. I just checked. No more difficult to source tooling than 6-32 If you made it from metal. you could skip the clip nut and tap the bracket itself, but if you removed the face often, I could see that eventually stripping-out. > I know a lot more folks with a 3D printer than I do the folks with metalwor= k experience. Agreed. I know lots of people with 3D Printers that cost $300 USD or less, and they are much easier to learn to use than learning how to run a mill (safely). There's absolutely nothing about this part that you couldn't make on a 10-year-old tiny hobby 3D Printer. It's not detailed and can easily be made from ABS or PLA (the most common plastics). If you printed it on its side (with the notch facing "up"), with unbroken filament going around the perimeter, it would be a lot stronger than printing it "point up" in layers. Your mounting holes might be a little more ragged but they are covered up anyway. I haven't printed Vince's parts but on the surface, they look good. One possible improvement could be to design in a pocket for a 10-32 nut. There are ways to print parts and pause the printing to install metal hardware and overprint for retention. It's not a beginner's technique, and heat-staked inserts are easier to apply, but a captured nut can be made to float. -ethan --===============6094785470592323032==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 15:35:10 2022 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:34:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9164572652052225391==" --===============9164572652052225391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 7:21 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > Bob Armstrong sent some pictures from Jack, which helped my find the > photos I knew were online somewhere: > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/adding-a-programmers-console-to-a= -pdp-8-a.75942/#post-921828 That's exactly what I have. -ethan --===============9164572652052225391==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 12 15:37:00 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:36:47 -0400 Message-ID: <4B91CC2E-2416-439F-BC10-712EF91DED68@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0493771902357630514==" --===============0493771902357630514== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 12, 2022, at 11:32 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> ... >=20 > Yep. I have mine right here. My micrometer is elsewhere, but looks > like it's made from 1/8" steel flat stock (with anti-corrosion > plating), and has 3 bends (apex and two ends), a clip-nut for the > machine screw in the cast face, and two mounting holes. Not hard to > make with a mill (or a file) and a break. >=20 > The clip nut is 10-32, BTW. I just checked. No more difficult to > source tooling than 6-32 That's the same clip nut used on H-960 racks. I saw some at the local hardwa= re store recently. An unusually well stocked hardware store, admittedly, but= clearly they are still current items. paul --===============0493771902357630514==-- From ethan@757.org Wed Oct 12 15:38:32 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Seattle Computer Products! Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:38:21 -0400 Message-ID: <99b5f5e1-51bb-25a0-151f-22c099fb38ed@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7611542031574615432==" --===============7611542031574615432== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At this point I have achieved the SCP CPU card, a CPU support card and a Disk Master card. So hopefully all I need is some kind of 16 bit RAM board and a 4 slot S100 backplane and I can boot 86-DOS. I have started to read through the documentation on the hardware. Has anyone else been down this road and built a system to run this? - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============7611542031574615432==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 15:48:54 2022 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:48:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B91CC2E-2416-439F-BC10-712EF91DED68@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8595641263490415913==" --===============8595641263490415913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 11:36 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > The clip nut is 10-32... > > That's the same clip nut used on H-960 racks. I saw some at the local hard= ware store recently. An unusually well stocked hardware store, admittedly, b= ut clearly they are still current items. It's the same threading but not the same style. The H960 clip nuts I have a real "nut" wrapped in a thin metal frame that wraps around the rail. This clip nut is a bit of plate steel with a machined and threaded "dimple" in the middle, and a small tang to latch into a thin metal carrier that looks spot welded to the bracket. You could probably use a rack clip nut in this application but I think the hole in the bracket would have to be a tad larger for a standard clip nut to engage, and then the cast metal front panel would be resting on the face of that clip nut clip instead of directly on the metal bracket with this design. It would probably affect a tight seat, and might lead to scoring on the inner face of the casting. Probably wouldn't matter much in practice, but a design and UX engineer might not like the difference. -ethan --===============8595641263490415913==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 12 16:27:22 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:27:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8580591890060813717==" --===============8580591890060813717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/11/22 08:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "Media mail" is the only practical option for those. > > And, blank, or user-written diskettes don't qualify; according to the > post-office, only commercially written disks. Who says that the media has to be disks. Dig around for some dusty old paperbacks. AFAIK, the container does not have to match the contents. That being said, I've never been challenged on a metered (i.e. prepaid) Media Mail package. This reminds me of the times I was shipping a tuba via Amtrak Express in a large fiberglass case. There was a size exception in the shipping rules for musical instruments, but it didn't apply if one was shipping empty cases. So my customer scrounged around for a beat-up junked trumpet and put it in the tuba case. The stationmaster didn't have a problem with that... --Chuck --===============8580591890060813717==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 12 16:35:39 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Finding tar block size. Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:35:28 -0400 Message-ID: <4dacf56b-a57f-3c57-8312-fd7b20dafd00@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7382515539704017343==" --===============7382515539704017343== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Figured it out, the file is actually in CPIO format. Apparently modern TAR tools can spot this and output the files transparently. Now to figure out how to make this AT&T 7300 Ethernet card work. It's installed in the leftmost slot (as seen from the back) but doesn't seem to be recognized by the driver. Wonder if there is a big manual for it somewhere in the world. Hey, anyone got a 7300 with Ethernet working? C --===============7382515539704017343==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 16:39:56 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 8a front panel hardware Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:39:43 -0400 Message-ID: <394ef199-bd90-47c0-2f00-a09afdb5177c@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2311860206621978815==" --===============2311860206621978815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is called a Tinnerman nut and they are available currently according=20 to a google search cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-12 11:32, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 1:17 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > wrote: >> On 10/11/2022 10:08 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:04 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Those are the ones. The 3D printed parts are essentially triangular >>>> blocks that mount to the rack and have a drilled and tapped hole for the >>>> recessed Allen screw. > As a 3D Printed part, looks good. > >>> Why on earth would you 3D print something like that? Machining it from >>> a metal block would be a lot stronger. > Strength isn't the only parameter here. A plastic block is plenty > strong enough unless you routinely pull down on your front panel when > you are standing up. > > I _am_ a fan of small machine shops, but even though I have access to > a very nice one at our Makerspace, it doesn't take me that long to > download a part file and press "print". > >> The DEC part is essentially bent bar stock, with a nut press-fit into >> it. Also easy to to do if you have the tooling. > Yep. I have mine right here. My micrometer is elsewhere, but looks > like it's made from 1/8" steel flat stock (with anti-corrosion > plating), and has 3 bends (apex and two ends), a clip-nut for the > machine screw in the cast face, and two mounting holes. Not hard to > make with a mill (or a file) and a break. > > The clip nut is 10-32, BTW. I just checked. No more difficult to > source tooling than 6-32 > > If you made it from metal. you could skip the clip nut and tap the > bracket itself, but if you removed the face often, I could see that > eventually stripping-out. > >> I know a lot more folks with a 3D printer than I do the folks with metalwo= rk experience. > Agreed. I know lots of people with 3D Printers that cost $300 USD or > less, and they are much easier to learn to use than learning how to > run a mill (safely). There's absolutely nothing about this part that > you couldn't make on a 10-year-old tiny hobby 3D Printer. It's not > detailed and can easily be made from ABS or PLA (the most common > plastics). If you printed it on its side (with the notch facing > "up"), with unbroken filament going around the perimeter, it would be > a lot stronger than printing it "point up" in layers. Your mounting > holes might be a little more ragged but they are covered up anyway. > > I haven't printed Vince's parts but on the surface, they look good. > One possible improvement could be to design in a pocket for a 10-32 > nut. There are ways to print parts and pause the printing to install > metal hardware and overprint for retention. It's not a beginner's > technique, and heat-staked inserts are easier to apply, but a captured > nut can be made to float. > > -ethan --===============2311860206621978815==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Oct 12 16:44:33 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Finding tar block size. Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:44:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4dacf56b-a57f-3c57-8312-fd7b20dafd00@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0191140826346043634==" --===============0191140826346043634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/12/22 12:35, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Figured it out, the file is actually in CPIO format. Apparently modern > TAR tools can spot this and output the files transparently. > > Now to figure out how to make this AT&T 7300 Ethernet card work. It's > installed in the leftmost slot (as seen from the back) but doesn't seem > to be recognized by the driver. Wonder if there is a big manual for it > somewhere in the world. > > Hey, anyone got a 7300 with Ethernet working? > > C Answer: Kermit!!! Sadly, I no longer have any of my 7300/3B1's. Miss them badly. I do still have a source set for the OS laying around somewhere, though. bill --===============0191140826346043634==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Wed Oct 12 17:21:21 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:20:37 -0500 Message-ID: <20221012172112.484F481E6F@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7364483835421629125==" --===============7364483835421629125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 09:16 AM 10/11/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >Yes, eBay charges the seller the same commission on shipping as it does for >the item price, and the taxes charged to the buyer as well. A year or so ago, I tried to figure out how to even see a detailed breakdown of eBay's costs and commissions on several servers I'd sold for a client. I gave up. I'm convinced it is purposefully opaque. You get what you get. - John --===============7364483835421629125==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:35:23 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 10:35:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221012172112.484F481E6F@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5357580056547421228==" --===============5357580056547421228== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That is a shared experience. The only way to know is to read the user agreement carefully, then apply the math yourself. When I've done so, it has always checked out. A trust but verify kinda thing. I regularly check my account ledger as once in a while I'll find a random charge that makes no sense, and will get it credited. eBay definitely makes mistakes. That being said, they are quick to fix them when brought to their attention, but I wonder how many people who aren't checking their accounting are being screwed by spurious charges. Sellam On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 10:21 AM John Foust via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > At 09:16 AM 10/11/2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > >Yes, eBay charges the seller the same commission on shipping as it does > for > >the item price, and the taxes charged to the buyer as well. > > A year or so ago, I tried to figure out how to even see a detailed > breakdown of eBay's costs and commissions on several servers I'd sold > for a client. I gave up. I'm convinced it is purposefully opaque. > You get what you get. > > - John > > --===============5357580056547421228==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 12 17:38:28 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Finding tar block size. Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 13:38:18 -0400 Message-ID: <4fef22a4-7963-3f89-aabb-a34023caf867@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580149C4173342A2624C042ED229=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7857327644233713666==" --===============7857327644233713666== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Answer:  Kermit!!! Kermit works, as does the three serial ports, which is how I got the ETHERNET+IN file up there. Amazing to use, compressing the file on my Mac takes well under a second, decompressing it on the 7300 takes a minute or two.... But as Dire Straits said: I want my TCP...... > Sadly, I no longer have any of my 7300/3B1's.  Miss them badly. It's such an odd duck, even more so than the NeXT. Still, it has a great keyboard and if it can do NFS I could hook it up to my SAN. > I do still have a source set for the OS laying around somewhere, though. I may want to borrow that from you. I've got the manuals, time to see what they say about testing expansion cards.... C --===============7857327644233713666==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Wed Oct 12 17:47:24 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:47:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3809117581625127068==" --===============3809117581625127068== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From the USPS Domestic Mail Manual, section 170, subsection 4.1(i): >=20 > "Computer-readable media containing prerecorded information and guides or > scripts prepared solely for use with such media." I've asked and our postmaster has said anything that's not blank is OK (we sh= ip a lot of diskettes!). I'm sure interpretation is basically arbitrary when = it comes down to stuff like, "how do we classify these disks from the 70s tha= t someone is inexplicably writing new data to in 2022?" Thanks, Jonathan --===============3809117581625127068==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 18:20:18 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:20:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7128649755221002737==" --===============7128649755221002737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "Media mail" is the only practical option for those. THAT comment was actuaally in reply to somebody who had a problem with the cost of shipping Chilton automotive books, where media mail is the ONLY practical option. >> And, blank, or user-written diskettes don't qualify; according to the >> post-office, only commercially written disks. On Wed, 12 Oct 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Who says that the media has to be disks. Dig around for some dusty old > paperbacks. AFAIK, the container does not have to match the contents. Of course not. Although, if it were to escalate, they wouldn't be HAPPY about using some alternate media as a way to ship the CONTAINER as media-mail. ANY printed/pre-recorded materials, such as last year's calendar, paperback books, a page or two of published sheet music. But, best of all: AOL disks would be acceptable! Finally, a use. Decades ago, I inquired, and the USPS response was explicitly that user-recorded disks were not accceptable, that it had to be commercially published content. They even said, "and absolutely not your notes in a binder, and not something that YOU printed on your computer"! Hey, waitaminit! I was using my Canon CX (Cordata) to print documentation for commercial software that I was publishing (although commercial duplication for anything other than tiny runs). At least my XenoSoft disk labels and documentation were professional enough looking that they would have withstood a challenge. I really don't know whether that information from USPS was correct and accurate; the phrase "printed"/"pre-recorded" would certainly be subject to interpretation. But, AOL disks would be acceptable! > That being said, I've never been challenged on a metered (i.e. prepaid) > Media Mail package. I have NEVER had USPS want to confirm the content when I shipped books. Never. HOWEVER, one time, an eBay seller tried to ship me non-media as media-mail and it was returned to her. > This reminds me of the times I was shipping a tuba via Amtrak Express in > a large fiberglass case. There was a size exception in the shipping > rules for musical instruments, but it didn't apply if one was shipping > empty cases. So my customer scrounged around for a beat-up junked > trumpet and put it in the tuba case. The stationmaster didn't have a > problem with that... Well, at least it was another brass instrument, not an attempt to ship a string or woodwind in a brass instrument case :-) My sister insists that her wooden Alphorn is a brass instrument, but that a brass saxophone is NOT a brass instrument. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7128649755221002737==-- From ethan@757.org Wed Oct 12 18:20:46 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Seattle Computer Products! Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 14:20:35 -0400 Message-ID: <12569476-cfe3-4768-40d8-dbd2c83eb73a@757.org> In-Reply-To: <25545ACD-CDCB-C64F-983F-0B5BF92CDA0E@hxcore.ol> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4802070638612388982==" --===============4802070638612388982== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Yes. I have a description of my recreation of the Gazelle on my web site, a= s well as notes on restoring the one for > VCFe.=C2=A0 > Rich Very interesting! Reading through it all now. I notice you use Tarbell=20 disk controller... difficult to use the SCP DiskMaster? I don't find many=20 references to systems running it. It supports SD/DD 5.25/8... I had=20 planned to go 5.25" - Ethan --===============4802070638612388982==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 18:36:44 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:36:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CFYrgJPUaLsrxcyLDRxaqUDzX9Q6SNqZs0GIEPbej5L8GBKuGDy?= =?utf-8?q?5lv-n-uA91LexQMQV-SdYrmfikRQMiNWuF8RKyFxYxXS9dz7yjXsFYCJk=3D=40gl?= =?utf-8?q?itchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5711389404271537190==" --===============5711389404271537190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> From the USPS Domestic Mail Manual, section 170, subsection 4.1(i): >> "Computer-readable media containing prerecorded information and guides or >> scripts prepared solely for use with such media." > On Wed, 12 Oct 2022, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > I've asked and our postmaster has said anything that's not blank is OK > (we ship a lot of diskettes!). I'm sure interpretation is basically > arbitrary when it comes down to stuff like, "how do we classify these > disks from the 70s that someone is inexplicably writing new data to in > 2022?" Not blank is certainly a more reasonable definition than the cockamamy "only if it was written by a publisher" silliness. 'course, an FORMATTED disk, without any "user" content is not "blank" :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5711389404271537190==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 12 19:18:13 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskette storage cases Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:17:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8053735111944492121==" --===============8053735111944492121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/12/22 11:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Well, at least it was another brass instrument, not an attempt to ship a > string or woodwind in a brass instrument case :-) > My sister insists that her wooden Alphorn is a brass instrument, but > that a brass saxophone is NOT a brass instrument. Of course--it all depends on the sound-making mechanism. A plastic cornet is still a brass instrument, as is an ophicleide or a serpent being labrosones. The actual construction material doesn't really matter. A metal clarinet is still a woodwind as is a saxophone or a flute or bassoon. So a contrabass tuba fitted with a contrabassoon bocal is technically, not a brass instrument; neither is a tromboon. --Chuck --===============8053735111944492121==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:54:58 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] datapoint 2200 programming Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 15:54:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5043579163455831437==" --===============5043579163455831437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was programmed? It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? -Steve --===============5043579163455831437==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Wed Oct 12 21:23:57 2022 From: Paul Kimpel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 14:23:40 -0700 Message-ID: <0a797408-6387-43b0-63cb-8d824df4e077@digm.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3323769604879519437==" --===============3323769604879519437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *From:* Steve Lewis via cctalk *Subject:* [cctalk] datapoint 2200 programming *Date:* Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 1:54 PM *To:* cctalk(a)classiccmp.org *Cc:* Steve Lewis > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was programmed? > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes > written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? > Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > -Steve I think you can find the answers here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/2200/ I only skimmed a couple of the manuals briefly, but it appears that it was programmed in assembler, and that the source code editing, assembly, and tape preparation were all done on the 2200. These manuals look like they are for the Version II machine that was introduced in 1972. The introduction to the Reference Manual states v.II was upward compatible from the v.I system, however, so the programming was probably similar. Once significant change was that v.II had RAM and that instructions ran between 4 and 80 times faster, which perhaps suggests that the v.I had a rotating memory or perhaps some sort of delay line memory. Paul --===============3323769604879519437==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 12 23:22:08 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Finding tar block size. Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:21:02 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4fef22a4-7963-3f89-aabb-a34023caf867@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3286226010632895782==" --===============3286226010632895782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/12/22 11:38 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Still, it has a great keyboard and if it can do NFS I could hook it up > to my SAN. I question the version of NFS it might do as opposed to what the SAN supports. I'm guessing that the SAN supports NFSv3 and / or NFSv4. I wouldn't hold my breath for the SAN to support older versions of NFS. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============3286226010632895782==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 12 23:27:13 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Finding tar block size. Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:26:59 -0400 Message-ID: <68ad33d8-02cf-44c7-3ac8-feb62dbe7172@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2415321173711282109==" --===============2415321173711282109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Doesn't have NFS, in fact I don't quite know if it has a resolver period. However it does have rcp, so we have that going for us.... :-) Just have to figure out how to make it work. On 10/12/2022 7:21 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/12/22 11:38 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Still, it has a great keyboard and if it can do NFS I could hook it up >> to my SAN. > > I question the version of NFS it might do as opposed to what the SAN > supports.  I'm guessing that the SAN supports NFSv3 and / or NFSv4.  I > wouldn't hold my breath for the SAN to support older versions of NFS. > > > --===============2415321173711282109==-- From spam@hell.org Thu Oct 13 03:12:12 2022 From: Mike Begley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 03:11:55 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAIGMtoXotSRMkcf0qRfoDiEBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3098853756292311164==" --===============3098853756292311164== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With all the talk about 8" floppy diskette storage cases, I was wondering if = anyone had any 8" floppy disks themselves they would be willing to sell? This winter I am hoping to start restoring an IMSAI 8080 I recently acquired,= and while it came with one external 5.25" drive, it would be desirable to co= nnect a "proper" 8" disk system to it as well. However, the complete lack of= the disks themselves makes that project more or less impractical even once I= get hardware set up. So before I even start that project, I'd love to pick = up a collection of 8" media. Years back I had an impressive collection of CP= /M software on 8" floppies, but unfortunately, they were accidentally left be= hind in a move. :-/ -mike --===============3098853756292311164==-- From trash80@internode.on.net Thu Oct 13 03:38:27 2022 From: Kevin Parker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:38:11 +1100 Message-ID: <000301d8deb5$37eebfb0$a7cc3f10$@internode.on.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB2219495BB67FD0C3A27488CAAC259=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8308244492919816087==" --===============8308244492919816087== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A little while ago I bought some new ones from https://www.floppydisk.com/ I have no relationship to floppydisk.com Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: Mike Begley via cctalk Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2022 14:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Begley Subject: [cctalk] 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) With all the talk about 8" floppy diskette storage cases, I was wondering if anyone had any 8" floppy disks themselves they would be willing to sell? This winter I am hoping to start restoring an IMSAI 8080 I recently acquired, and while it came with one external 5.25" drive, it would be desirable to connect a "proper" 8" disk system to it as well. However, the complete lack of the disks themselves makes that project more or less impractical even once I get hardware set up. So before I even start that project, I'd love to pick up a collection of 8" media. Years back I had an impressive collection of CP/M software on 8" floppies, but unfortunately, they were accidentally left behind in a move. :-/ -mike --===============8308244492919816087==-- From jjacocks@mac.com Thu Oct 13 05:28:25 2022 From: Alexander Jacocks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Figured out the Sun 386i supply, how to update the FAQ? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 01:20:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5994769254530654584==" --===============5994769254530654584== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 7, 2022, at 12:57 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Also found the serial console interface works, and realized I should update= the 386i FAQ with this information. So what would be the best way to do that= in this day and age? I=E2=80=99d edit the one found here: http://www.sunhelp.org/386i/faq/sun386i-FAQ-1.00.15.txt And send the updated FAQ to the guy who maintains SunHelp.org, since Bill Bra= dford=E2=80=99s passing: submissions(a)sunhelp.org That=E2=80=99s the best address I have. Alternately, it=E2=80=99s always a go= od thing to upload it to archive.org, or similar. - Alex --===============5994769254530654584==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Thu Oct 13 08:11:44 2022 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:08:25 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6071262099443418132==" --===============6071262099443418132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was programmed? > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes > written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? > Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > -Steve Look here to wat was available for this class of machines : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/60000_Datapoint_Software_Cata= log_Sep1982.pdf So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare, Dataform = were available. Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only system. Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system, allo= wing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of course.= .. My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some simn= ple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code for this b= ootrom on Bitsavers. Jos --===============6071262099443418132==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Thu Oct 13 11:24:36 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 04:24:18 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0281787320138425907==" --===============0281787320138425907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where might I find a schematic diagram for the Xerox U07 8" FDD,HDD expansion cabinet for the 820II, and/or the 105P80450 power supply? The Xerox Professional Computer Technical Reference Manual I downloaded from bitsavers.org doesn't seem to have those particular schematic diagrams. For your enjoyment the part which smoked. https://www.dropbox.com/s/al9kx3yw9ypwp89/Xerox105p80450.jpg?dl=0 I certainly am glad I have the lid off while testing. Unfortunately these capacitors which appear to be film type were hidden from view. The fuse didn't blow, but that .22uf 250v capacitor certainly stunk up the house. It smelled like burnt popcorn, plastic and the bottom of a coffee pot which has boiled dry, yech! I know that if I had pulled the power supply board first I might have seen the physical cracks in these boxed capacitors. Wasn't it Marc V. that said in one of his videos, you don't need to shotgun them all! Oi, lol It's when things like this happen that I most always worry about not going over vintage equipment fine tooth comb. Don Resor --===============0281787320138425907==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Thu Oct 13 11:43:39 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:43:27 +0100 Message-ID: <5b43f9df.608c7.183d12810cf.Webtop.82@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAL/Ho5DZFT1Al0dDseb4a+cBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1590446640448951731==" --===============1590446640448951731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You shouldn't need a schematic. These thin film caps are a common failure mode on a multitude of PSUs. Just replace like for like. Thin film X and X2 rated caps are easily found from your favorite electronics part retailer. If it's gold and got RIFA on it, replace it, though. Just because it hasn't popped, doesn't mean it wont pop in the near future. I've learned now, to always check every PSU or other mains-powered vintage equipment for these little stinkbombs. If they're present, i'll always replace. Cheers, Josh ------ Original Message ------ From: "D. Resor via cctalk" To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" Cc: "D. Resor" Sent: Thursday, 13 Oct, 2022 At 12:24 Subject: [cctalk] Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Where might I find a schematic diagram for the Xerox U07 8" FDD,HDD expansion cabinet for the 820II, and/or the 105P80450 power supply? The Xerox Professional Computer Technical Reference Manual I downloaded from bitsavers.org doesn't seem to have those particular schematic diagrams. For your enjoyment the part which smoked. https://www.dropbox.com/s/al9kx3yw9ypwp89/Xerox105p80450.jpg?dl=0 I certainly am glad I have the lid off while testing. Unfortunately these capacitors which appear to be film type were hidden from view. The fuse didn't blow, but that .22uf 250v capacitor certainly stunk up the house. It smelled like burnt popcorn, plastic and the bottom of a coffee pot which has boiled dry, yech! I know that if I had pulled the power supply board first I might have seen the physical cracks in these boxed capacitors. Wasn't it Marc V. that said in one of his videos, you don't need to shotgun them all! Oi, lol It's when things like this happen that I most always worry about not going over vintage equipment fine tooth comb. Don Resor --===============1590446640448951731==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Oct 13 12:02:35 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:02:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5b43f9df.608c7.183d12810cf.Webtop.82@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5209243405169250326==" --===============5209243405169250326== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > If it's gold and got RIFA on it, replace it, though. - snip - > I've learned now, to always check every PSU or other mains-powered > vintage equipment for these little stinkbombs. If they're present, i'll > always replace. Yup, always replace. These are not parts that can be rehabilitated. RIFAs are= one of the few things we always bulk replace without any sort of testing. Thanks, Jonathan --===============5209243405169250326==-- From dave@mitton.com Thu Oct 13 14:21:32 2022 From: Dave Mitton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:12:08 -0400 Message-ID: <1665670313-497770@mid.hostedemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8223932568513338859==" --===============8223932568513338859== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 15:54:33 -0500 > From: Steve Lewis > Subject: [cctalk] datapoint 2200 programming > > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was programmed? > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes > written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? > Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > -Steve While in college, 1973 to 77, I had a part-time job where one of the things w= e did was use a Datapoint 1100 dual cassette model to act as a data entry ter= minal for a database system running on a Cascade 80 minicomputer. I did the Datapoint programming, which was to query the db over an async line= for a form template, allow the operator to fill in the form, then upon entry= , send the data back. The db would provide the next form to display. A ru= dimentary state machine at several levels. The Datapoint came with a Cassette Tape operating system, called CTOS I belie= ve. You booted it up, and the second drive was your working drive. The Prog= rammer=E2=80=99s manual referenced shows you the commands. There was an simp= le tape file system, Editor, Assembler, Debugger, and a library of subroutine= s for common access to the system=E2=80=99s I/O. I remember very little about the details of working on it, but I had no probl= ems getting the data entry system working. You just sat down and started pro= gramming it. The instruction set was the model for the 8008, but it precede= d the popularity and availability of that chip. My boss did some real inspired work on the Cascade Data side. He managed to= insert the database access code into high memory of the system, and hook int= o the native OS. So we could use the system normally, but the database servi= ced the terminal in the background. I did other Cascade programming in assem= bly, I wrote my own instruction card for the system. In my senior year, the facility switched over to using IBM System 3 equipment= , and I got to work with RPG, 8-inch diskettes, and 96-column cards. Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows --===============8223932568513338859==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Oct 13 15:01:46 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:01:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAB0mLLr8U2tDs2Ci+UAvofkBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8212269871740098701==" --===============8212269871740098701== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/13/22 08:32, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > I do understand that these are common film capacitor types. There is one m= ore smaller .10ufa RIFA branded capacitor hiding near the center of the PWB. > > A couple reasons I'd like to have a circuit diagram is to know what the RIF= A capacitors purpose are. The other is, a couple of the electrolytic capaci= tor are double covered with what appears to be rubbery heat shrink tubing, th= erefore I cannot read what their value are. Cut the heat shrink with an X-acto knife and peel it off.=C2=A0=20 it should leave the marking of the cap intact.=C2=A0 if there are=20 2 layers, it may be the inner layer is the original factory=20 marked wrapper for the cap.=C2=A0 So, you might try to not cut=20 through the inner layer.=C2=A0 But,, maybe don't be too worried,=20 as the caps definitely sound bad. Jon --===============8212269871740098701==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Oct 13 15:16:08 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:15:28 -0400 Message-ID: <0DC558FC-5E73-4498-A918-34383C2D686C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <72f184e4-e697-7a6f-4a25-720b1dbb9bb8@e-bbes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5615096875669037069==" --===============5615096875669037069== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 13, 2022, at 11:02 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >=20 > On 9/28/2022 20:18, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> FWIW, I just tried building GCC 2.95.2 on my Linux system (Fedora Core 32,= GCC 10.3.1. It almost built, ran into an argument mismatch error message in= something called "chill". So if you want something that old it looks like y= ou'll have to start by building a less ancient version, say 4.8 or so, and th= en use that to build the dinosaur. >=20 > Which switches/options did you use? > Last weekend I spent some cycles to try ... I cheated a bit. My test was "can GCC V.old build at all". So I tried a nat= ive build, not a cross-build. Cross-builds have their own set of issues and = it's been long enough that I no longer remember them well. That's what I wou= ld suggest when dealing with old versions: first try a native (or i386 if you= have x86_64) build to see what, if any, issues you need to handle just for t= he generic old GCC. Given that you have that working, you can then do the cr= oss-build. For example, if you need a GCC V.medium to build the GCC V.ancien= t, discovering that first makes things easier. Yes, you'd have to start by finding an old enough binutils that supports the = target platform. With that in place, you can then build gcc for that platfor= m. paul > I can build the binutils around 2.32, emitting elf > No luck at all, getting gcc to compile. Support for the i860 was removed ve= ry early after 4.0, going back to 3.x versions fails as they can't compile on= 64 bit systems. (and also never used ELF, but COFF?) >=20 > So stuck a little at the moment, I guess I have to install some linux 32 bi= t version, and try again ... >=20 --===============5615096875669037069==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Thu Oct 13 15:25:26 2022 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 17:02:02 +0200 Message-ID: <72f184e4-e697-7a6f-4a25-720b1dbb9bb8@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2676961535990683537==" --===============2676961535990683537== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/28/2022 20:18, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > FWIW, I just tried building GCC 2.95.2 on my Linux system (Fedora Core 32, = GCC 10.3.1. It almost built, ran into an argument mismatch error message in = something called "chill". So if you want something that old it looks like yo= u'll have to start by building a less ancient version, say 4.8 or so, and the= n use that to build the dinosaur. Which switches/options did you use? Last weekend I spent some cycles to try ... I can build the binutils around 2.32, emitting elf No luck at all, getting gcc to compile. Support for the i860 was removed=20 very early after 4.0, going back to 3.x versions fails as they can't=20 compile on 64 bit systems. (and also never used ELF, but COFF?) So stuck a little at the moment, I guess I have to install some linux 32=20 bit version, and try again ... --===============2676961535990683537==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Oct 13 15:33:32 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:33:17 -0400 Message-ID: <92b6fdd0-6be5-4120-d0c2-f3f03e6834c4@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3837115245313048474==" --===============3837115245313048474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Side thought: I had one of those blow up on a BA23 chassis a few months ago. When I opened the supply it was full of aluminum paper from the inside of the cap; glad it didn't short out any other components. Remove and replace. C On 10/13/2022 11:01 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/13/22 08:32, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: >> I do understand that these are common film capacitor types.  There is >> one more smaller .10ufa RIFA branded capacitor hiding near the center >> of the PWB. >> >> A couple reasons I'd like to have a circuit diagram is to know what >> the RIFA capacitors purpose are.   The other is, a couple of the >> electrolytic capacitor are double covered with what appears to be >> rubbery heat shrink tubing, therefore I cannot read what their value are. > > Cut the heat shrink with an X-acto knife and peel it off. it should > leave the marking of the cap intact.  if there are 2 layers, it may be > the inner layer is the original factory marked wrapper for the cap.  So, > you might try to not cut through the inner layer.  But,, maybe don't be > too worried, as the caps definitely sound bad. > > Jon > --===============3837115245313048474==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri Oct 14 00:17:52 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 20:17:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMW2PR18MB2219495BB67FD0C3A27488CAAC259=40MW2PR18MB?= =?utf-8?q?2219=2Enamprd18=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2388240490464572660==" --===============2388240490464572660== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've certainly got some for sale; mostly DS/DD but a few SS/SD as well. Can your drive(s) handle DS/DD disks? m On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 11:12 PM Mike Begley via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > With all the talk about 8" floppy diskette storage cases, I was wondering > if anyone had any 8" floppy disks themselves they would be willing to sell? > > This winter I am hoping to start restoring an IMSAI 8080 I recently > acquired, and while it came with one external 5.25" drive, it would be > desirable to connect a "proper" 8" disk system to it as well. However, the > complete lack of the disks themselves makes that project more or less > impractical even once I get hardware set up. So before I even start that > project, I'd love to pick up a collection of 8" media. Years back I had an > impressive collection of CP/M software on 8" floppies, but unfortunately, > they were accidentally left behind in a move. :-/ > > -mike > > --===============2388240490464572660==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Fri Oct 14 17:28:24 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Floppy disks for sale [WAS:RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35] Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 10:19:34 -0700 Message-ID: <001701d8dff1$26d14170$7473c450$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6052885875240358942==" --===============6052885875240358942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Persky at https://www.floppydisk.com/ sells all types of FDs, albeit well above the AOL price :-) Interesting article about this last man standing in the business: https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/we-spoke-with-the-last-person-standing-in-the-f loppy-disk-business/#:~:text=3DTom%20Persky%20is%20the%20self,and%20recycling% 20of%20floppy%20disks.=20 BTW, there are still four companies making iron oxide tape, but just currently for audio/video/instrument usage. =20 If the demand for FDs continues past Tom's inventory then I wouldn't be surprised to see one of them make some FDs too. Tom -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org= ]=20 Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:00 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk(a)classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner(a)classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." --===============6052885875240358942==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri Oct 14 19:48:16 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:47:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000301d8deb5$37eebfb0$a7cc3f10$@internode.on.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8132077214891252494==" --===============8132077214891252494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How much? On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 11:38 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A little while ago I bought some new ones from https://www.floppydisk.com/ > > I have no relationship to floppydisk.com > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Begley via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2022 14:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Mike Begley > Subject: [cctalk] 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette > storage cases) > > With all the talk about 8" floppy diskette storage cases, I was wondering > if > anyone had any 8" floppy disks themselves they would be willing to sell? > > This winter I am hoping to start restoring an IMSAI 8080 I recently > acquired, and while it came with one external 5.25" drive, it would be > desirable to connect a "proper" 8" disk system to it as well. However, the > complete lack of the disks themselves makes that project more or less > impractical even once I get hardware set up. So before I even start that > project, I'd love to pick up a collection of 8" media. Years back I had an > impressive collection of CP/M software on 8" floppies, but unfortunately, > they were accidentally left behind in a move. :-/ > > -mike > > --===============8132077214891252494==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Fri Oct 14 22:24:39 2022 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 17:24:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1915561162539234888==" --===============1915561162539234888== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just curious but how does one predict if floppys will be good when buying old media? Is it just a crap shoop at this point? --===============1915561162539234888==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Oct 14 22:26:41 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:26:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7988952518896989493==" --===============7988952518896989493== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my experience, floppy disks prove to be very resilient with the specific exception of late 1990s 3.5" floppies, which tend to fail readily. Sellam On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 3:24 PM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just curious but how does one predict if floppys will be good when buying > old media? Is it just a crap shoop at this point? > --===============7988952518896989493==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Oct 14 22:57:42 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 22:57:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5482302667195270106==" --===============5482302667195270106== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve used a floppies a lot over the years and only real failures i=E2= =80=99ve seen are with the case or jacket being cracked or otherwise broken t= orn. Had a lot of 3 1/2 floppies that wouldn=E2=80=99t write but a reformat f= ixed that.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 14, 2022, at 15:26, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFIn my experience, floppy disks prove to be very resilient with the= specific > exception of late 1990s 3.5" floppies, which tend to fail readily. >=20 > Sellam >=20 >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 3:24 PM John Herron via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >> Just curious but how does one predict if floppys will be good when buying >> old media? Is it just a crap shoop at this point? >>=20 --===============5482302667195270106==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sat Oct 15 17:39:39 2022 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Sun Fire V100 CPU not coming up on poweron Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 19:17:03 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1539369000054695041==" --===============1539369000054695041== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I've got Sun Fire V100 that I'm pretty sure at some point in time actually worked, since I loaded the board with the maximum amount of memory supported (2G). Now, however, when powering on, the LOM comes up but upon issuing the poweron command the main CPU apparently doesn't, all I get is either 1. print_message: Wrong message ID 2. or continuous scrolling of what look like blocks of register dumps I can reliably get effect 1, but the effect 2 is not easy to reproduce. The memory itself seems ok - transplanted it into a known good V100 board and that booted up to readiness (no OS installed yet), included full memory init. Just on general principle (i.e. try the obvious things first) I also retried with known good PSU, same result. There are no obvious signs of trouble (e.g. bulked up or leaky electrolytic capacitors, scorch marks). Any ideas what that message wants to tell me? Full bootup transcript below, note the fan failure is due to this being run as a naked board removed from the case, so the case fans are 'missing'. -------------------------- cute here for new monitor -------------------- LOMlite starting up. CPU type: H8/3437S, mode 3 Ram-test: 2048 bytes OK Initialising i2c bus: OK Searching for EEPROMs: 50(cfg) I2c eeprom @50: OK i2c bus speed code 01... OK Probing for lm80s: none Probing for lm75s: 48 Initialising lm75 @48: OK System functions: PSUs fans breakers rails gpio temps host CLI ebus clock Power restored LOMlite console lom> LOM event: +0h0m0s LOM booted lom> LOM event: +0h0m0s host power on � LOM event: +0h0m7s Fan 1 FATAL FAULT: failed 0% LOM event: +0h0m7s Fault LED 3Hz print_message: Wrong message ID lom> lom>poweroff lom> LOM event: +0h0m50s host power off lom>poweron lom> LOM event: +0h0m55s host power on � LOM event: +0h0m56s Fan 1 recovered LOM event: +0h1m2s Fan 1 FATAL FAULT: failed 0% print_message: Wrong message ID lom> lom>poweroff -------------------------- cute here for new monitor -------------------- Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============1539369000054695041==-- From trash80@internode.on.net Sun Oct 16 22:21:34 2022 From: Kevin Parker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 09:21:12 +1100 Message-ID: <01e901d8e1ad$99cb9f00$cd62dd00$@internode.on.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5863101463539322813==" --===============5863101463539322813== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had a mixture of DS and SS and had to ship to Australia so it worked out ab= out $8 a disk in the end but I have three machines that use 8" floppies so I = stocked up while I could. Don't quote me but I think he bought all the inventory of a company that was = (past tense) making them so there is a limited supply so as the supply dwindl= es I expect the price will rise - again don't quote me on this. Recommend you check out their web site but the service I got from Tom was exc= ellent - he was very helpful. Kevin Parker 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: Mike Stein via cctalk =20 Sent: Saturday, 15 October 2022 06:48 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Stein Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette= storage cases) How much? On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 11:38 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccm= p.org> wrote: > A little while ago I bought some new ones from=20 > https://www.floppydisk.com/ > > I have no relationship to floppydisk.com > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Begley via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2022 14:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <=20 > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Mike Begley > Subject: [cctalk] 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy=20 > diskette storage cases) > > With all the talk about 8" floppy diskette storage cases, I was=20 > wondering if anyone had any 8" floppy disks themselves they would be=20 > willing to sell? > > This winter I am hoping to start restoring an IMSAI 8080 I recently=20 > acquired, and while it came with one external 5.25" drive, it would be=20 > desirable to connect a "proper" 8" disk system to it as well. =20 > However, the complete lack of the disks themselves makes that project=20 > more or less impractical even once I get hardware set up. So before I=20 > even start that project, I'd love to pick up a collection of 8" media. =20 > Years back I had an impressive collection of CP/M software on 8"=20 > floppies, but unfortunately, they were accidentally left behind in a=20 > move. :-/ > > -mike > > --===============5863101463539322813==-- From spacewar@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 01:30:53 2022 From: Eric Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 19:30:22 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5626361125737560850==" --===============5626361125737560850== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 14:54 Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Datapoint 2200 [...] iinstruction set was said to be similar what became > the > 8008. > The instruction sets weren't similar, they was identical. The Intel 8008 (and TI TMX1795) were designed based on specifications from Computer Terminal Corporation, maker of the Datapoint brand. CTC chose not to use either chip in the Datapoint 2200 family, though. The 8008 instruction set is basically the 8080 instruction set with the best instructions removed and the opcodes reassigned. --===============5626361125737560850==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 04:08:51 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3203605629530065522==" --===============3203605629530065522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint 2200 "in the wild" -- what could be done with it, if no floppy nor any working tapes (then again, such a system is well retired and really no need to power it on). "good tapes" would probably be degraded by now (although the media has probably been extracted and archives somewhere? so like with a TRS-80 today, can you just use any tape deck or even a smartphone to just play back the tape? not quite that simple, as the DP2200 digital data would have to converted into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio tape?) Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine code at addresses (the IBM 5100 has a DSP that allows this, to Alter addresses to apply PALM instructions, then do a "BR" branch run at your starting address to kick things off). I'm reading through the Lamont Wood Datapoint book, maybe it will have more insight here. I was just curious how the first tape (for the DP2200) was produced. I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to MOS. That's not quite the same - but I imagine a similar story with the DP2200. An early incomplete DP2200 was built, someone coded some save/load routines, tested, and once perfected maybe it was formalized into (a part of) what became the bootrom? (if you have a correct "CTOS" tape, does the DP2200 just load it or is an initial command needed?) Sorry, as mentioned I'm reading the Datapoint book, and after that will explore the manuals mentioned here that will probably explain it. (I see reference to a DP2200 emulator made on the System/360 - but none ever made it to a "modern" x86 PC?) On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:11 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was > programmed? > > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the > > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the > tapes > > written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? > > Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and > > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that > > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that > > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > > > -Steve > > Look here to wat was available for this class of machines : > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/60000_Datapoint_Software_Ca= talog_Sep1982.pdf > > > So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare, > Dataform were available. > > Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only > system. > > Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system, > allowing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of > course... > > My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some > simnple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code for > this bootrom on Bitsavers. > > > Jos > > --===============3203605629530065522==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Mon Oct 17 06:25:18 2022 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:24:59 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7867869878174080226==" --===============7867869878174080226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17.10.22 03:30, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 14:54 Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > >> Datapoint 2200 [...] iinstruction set was said to be similar what became >> the >> 8008. >> > The instruction sets weren't similar, they was identical. Not quite, II believe, O handling is different between DP200 and i8008. --===============7867869878174080226==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Mon Oct 17 06:41:41 2022 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:41:22 +0200 Message-ID: <00bb0bd7-7e24-b321-ea3d-d11df77b73b8@greenmail.ch> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5609842956673366790==" --===============5609842956673366790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17.10.22 06:08, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint 2200 "in the wild" -- You'd be very lucky to find one. They are much rarer than the contemporary an= d similar ICL1501. And if you find one, watch out. The powersupply is serious= ly dangereous... > into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio tape?) They did not use audio tapes, but the digital variant. > Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine > code at addresses You can do just that on my system. If you have a true 2200 with the dual cass= ette system you do not have a bootrom : system hardware will just load the fi= rst block from tape and start from there. One of the tapes has a monitor simi= lar to the one in my bootrom. =C2=A0My system is a DP1100/Floppy, has no tapes, but a PCB with the bootrom= instead of the tape reader board.=C2=A0 I intend to make a combined bootrom = / tape reader board, as I would like to extend my DP1100 with casettes. Jos --===============5609842956673366790==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 07:45:45 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:45:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1431751501526117906==" --===============1431751501526117906== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an entire box of Datapoint 2200 digital tapes, probably over 50 of them. I'm not sure what's on them, but I got them long ago from a former dealer/tech(?) for Datapoint outside Reno. I also scored a ton (probably literally) of hardware but that was all stolen in the Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012. As you can guess, the rollers in the tapes are probably deteriorated by now but someone with some patience and determination could probably extract the data. If anyone is interested, contact me privately. Sellam On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 9:08 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint 2200 "in the wild" -- > what could be done with it, if no floppy nor any working tapes (then again, > such a system is well retired and really no need to power it on). "good > tapes" would probably be degraded by now (although the media has probably > been extracted and archives somewhere? so like with a TRS-80 today, can you > just use any tape deck or even a smartphone to just play back the tape? > not quite that simple, as the DP2200 digital data would have to converted > into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio > tape?) > > Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine > code at addresses (the IBM 5100 has a DSP that allows this, to Alter > addresses to apply PALM instructions, then do a "BR" branch run at your > starting address to kick things off). I'm reading through the Lamont Wood > Datapoint book, maybe it will have more insight here. I was just curious > how the first tape (for the DP2200) was produced. > > I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't > have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to > MOS. That's not quite the same - but I imagine a similar story with the > DP2200. An early incomplete DP2200 was built, someone coded some save/load > routines, tested, and once perfected maybe it was formalized into (a part > of) what became the bootrom? (if you have a correct "CTOS" tape, does the > DP2200 just load it or is an initial command needed?) Sorry, as > mentioned I'm reading the Datapoint book, and after that will explore the > manuals mentioned here that will probably explain it. (I see reference to > a DP2200 emulator made on the System/360 - but none ever made it to a > "modern" x86 PC?) > > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:11 AM jos via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was > > programmed? > > > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > > > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became > the > > > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the > > tapes > > > written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? > > > Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor > and > > > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > > > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write > that > > > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 > that > > > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > > > > > -Steve > > > > Look here to wat was available for this class of machines : > > > > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/60000_Datapoint_Software_Ca= talog_Sep1982.pdf > > > > > > So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare, > > Dataform were available. > > > > Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only > > system. > > > > Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system, > > allowing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of > > course... > > > > My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some > > simnple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code > for > > this bootrom on Bitsavers. > > > > > > Jos > > > > > --===============1431751501526117906==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 08:31:34 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 16:30:49 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7183892087219612179==" --===============7183892087219612179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where and why? --===============7183892087219612179==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 17 08:43:22 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 01:43:04 -0700 Message-ID: <1N63qG-1pDBAZ0dI0-016Lm2@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3514387722545444267==" --===============3514387722545444267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago in non = Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-T= opic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Sellam Ab= raham referred to a "Great VintageComputer Heist of 2012". What was that abou= t? Who stole what and where andwhy? --===============3514387722545444267==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 08:55:01 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 01:54:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1N63qG-1pDBAZ0dI0-016Lm2@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4717734885136205639==" --===============4717734885136205639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Long story very short: Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and was able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again for good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter it to the wind. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk wrote: > You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago in > non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Tom > Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer > Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer Heist of > 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? --===============4717734885136205639==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 09:00:44 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:00:16 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2275994442337241889==" --===============2275994442337241889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did you take them to court again to get compensation for what must have been a substantial loss? Very strange story. You must have been furious. On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, 4:54 pm Sellam Abraham via cctalk, < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Long story very short: > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and was > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again for > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter > it to the wind. > > Sellam > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk > wrote: > > > You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago in > > non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > Tom > > Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer > > Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer Heist > of > > 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? > --===============2275994442337241889==-- From jon@jonworld.com Mon Oct 17 09:05:40 2022 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sun Fire V100 CPU not coming up on poweron Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 10:05:12 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5312435536553244176==" --===============5312435536553244176== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Have you checked the PROM versions between the broken system and known-good system? I'm wondering if the broken system has a buggy PROM that just can't handle there are no fans? On Sat, Oct 15, 2022 at 6:39 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got Sun Fire V100 that I'm pretty sure at some point in time > actually worked, since I loaded the board with the maximum amount > of memory supported (2G). > > Now, however, when powering on, the LOM comes up but upon issuing the > poweron command the main CPU apparently doesn't, all I get is either > 1. print_message: Wrong message ID > 2. or continuous scrolling of what look like blocks of register dumps > > I can reliably get effect 1, but the effect 2 is not easy to reproduce. > The memory itself seems ok - transplanted it into a known good V100 > board and that booted up to readiness (no OS installed yet), included > full memory init. Just on general principle (i.e. try the obvious things > first) I also retried with known good PSU, same result. > > There are no obvious signs of trouble (e.g. bulked up or leaky > electrolytic capacitors, scorch marks). > > Any ideas what that message wants to tell me? > > Full bootup transcript below, note the fan failure is due to this being > run as a naked board removed from the case, so the case fans are 'missing'. > > -------------------------- cute here for new monitor -------------------- > LOMlite starting up. > > CPU type: H8/3437S, mode 3 > Ram-test: 2048 bytes OK > Initialising i2c bus: OK > Searching for EEPROMs: 50(cfg) > I2c eeprom @50: OK > i2c bus speed code 01... OK > Probing for lm80s: none > Probing for lm75s: 48 > Initialising lm75 @48: OK > System functions: PSUs fans breakers rails gpio temps host CLI ebus clock > Power restored > > LOMlite console > lom> > LOM event: +0h0m0s LOM booted > lom> > LOM event: +0h0m0s host power on > � > LOM event: +0h0m7s Fan 1 FATAL FAULT: failed 0% > > LOM event: +0h0m7s Fault LED 3Hz > print_message: Wrong message ID > lom> > lom>poweroff > lom> > LOM event: +0h0m50s host power off > lom>poweron > lom> > LOM event: +0h0m55s host power on > � > LOM event: +0h0m56s Fan 1 recovered > > LOM event: +0h1m2s Fan 1 FATAL FAULT: failed 0% > print_message: Wrong message ID > lom> > lom>poweroff > -------------------------- cute here for new monitor -------------------- > > Kind regards, > Alex. > -- > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============5312435536553244176==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:38:28 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:38:00 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2673953934673723185==" --===============2673953934673723185== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did. It stretched on for a couple years, as civil suits are wont to do. But because I didn't have the legal chops I have now, I did not prevail. Hard lesson learned. Trust no man. Definitely trust no lawyer. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 2:00 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Did you take them to court again to get compensation for what must have > been a substantial loss? Very strange story. You must have been furious. > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, 4:54 pm Sellam Abraham via cctalk, < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Long story very short: > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored > > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and > was > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again > for > > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter > > it to the wind. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago > in > > > non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > > -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: > "General > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > > Tom > > > Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer > > > Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer Heist > > of > > > 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? > > > --===============2673953934673723185==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Mon Oct 17 18:48:11 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Soviet PDP clones Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:47:53 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3407436278207029465==" --===============3407436278207029465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,=20 After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perh= aps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.= =20 I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite = poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depi= te not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. However, i=E2=80=99m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18= -bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lac= klustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less demand = for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to be= lieve that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have been = attempted.=20 Does anyone here have any information on such clones? Cheers,=20 Josh Rice --===============3407436278207029465==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Oct 17 18:49:52 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:49:35 -0400 Message-ID: <4B0EC03E-137F-452C-A2FB-846DF0EF6CB5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4510445886073340961==" --===============4510445886073340961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Never mind the civil suits, it sounds to me (from the facts you quoted) that = criminal charges might have been warranted. paul > On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I did. It stretched on for a couple years, as civil suits are wont to do. > But because I didn't have the legal chops I have now, I did not prevail. >=20 > Hard lesson learned. Trust no man. Definitely trust no lawyer. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 2:00 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> Did you take them to court again to get compensation for what must have >> been a substantial loss? Very strange story. You must have been furious. >>=20 >> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, 4:54 pm Sellam Abraham via cctalk, < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> Long story very short: >>>=20 >>> Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored >>> and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and >> was >>> able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again >> for >>> good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter >>> it to the wind. >>>=20 >>> Sellam >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago >> in >>>> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... >>>> -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: >> "General >>>> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: >>> Tom >>>> Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer >>>> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer Heist >>> of >>>> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? >>>=20 >>=20 --===============4510445886073340961==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:58:15 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:57:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2995569281888729391==" --===============2995569281888729391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (pe= rhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviet= s. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depit= e poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, de= pite not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR via India who had no problems with violating their agreements with their allies. Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC. bill --===============2995569281888729391==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Mon Oct 17 18:58:58 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:52:26 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2005352426006633177==" --===============2005352426006633177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn=E2=80=99t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection before b= eing locked out again. I know losing any of it is terrible, but I=E2=80=99m = guessing you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when recoveri= ng the 20%, such as your Lisa 1? I kept my collection in storage lockers for years. I kept moving to larger a= nd larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because my collecting g= ot out of control. Prices kept going up every year and it was a nightmare ha= ving to pay what I did just to store the collection. Fortunately I was able= to move to a house and relocated the collection to the basement. Not everyt= hing could come home with me, so I sold the remaining lower priority pieces t= o the first person who could clear the locker over a weekend. I didn=E2=80= =99t get much for it, but at least it didn=E2=80=99t go to a recycler.=20 > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Long story very short: >=20 > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and was > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again for > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter > it to the wind. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago in >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... >> -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Tom >> Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer Heist of >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? --===============2005352426006633177==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Oct 17 19:01:04 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 15:00:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3620788015641216229==" --===============3620788015641216229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi all,=20 >=20 > After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (pe= rhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviet= s.=20 That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones. > I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depit= e poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, de= pite not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic le= ttering is the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the very = best". > However, i=E2=80=99m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the = 18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather l= acklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less deman= d for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to = believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have bee= n attempted.=20 >=20 > Does anyone here have any information on such clones? Here's something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Computer_Factory That's not the only Soviet clone factory, but it's an interesting one. I hav= e a brochure from them, which I think I got when they visited DEC in the 1980= s (which takes some chutzpah!). The brochure is not all that clear, but the = Wikipedia article says their 32-bit machine "SM 1700" is a VAX clone. Appare= ntly a number of their other machines were not clones but original designs. paul --===============3620788015641216229==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 17 19:38:38 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 13:37:30 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7924742314359313756==" --===============7924742314359313756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/17/22 12:52 PM, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: > Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the remaining lower > priority pieces to the first person who could clear the locker over > a weekend. I didn’t get much for it, but at least it didn’t go > to a recycler. Hopefully you boot strapped someone into the collecting hobby. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============7924742314359313756==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:11:58 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 13:11:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0473679787866074692==" --===============0473679787866074692== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The good news is that most of my best stuff was either already with me or I was able to get out, including my two Lisa 1's, my (straight) PDP-8, and several other precious items. I long since sold off most of this to pay to live, since at the same time they destroyed my collection they destroyed my business (not to mention my life's work). I've gone on to build a new collection out of the old, one that is--like my original collection--unrivaled anywhere on the planet. But this time I've erected castle walls around it, surrounded by a moat filled with alligators. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 11:58 AM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I didn=E2=80=99t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection before= being > locked out again. I know losing any of it is terrible, but I=E2=80=99m gue= ssing > you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when recovering the > 20%, such as your Lisa 1? > > I kept my collection in storage lockers for years. I kept moving to > larger and larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because my > collecting got out of control. Prices kept going up every year and it was > a nightmare having to pay what I did just to store the collection. > Fortunately I was able to move to a house and relocated the collection to > the basement. Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the > remaining lower priority pieces to the first person who could clear the > locker over a weekend. I didn=E2=80=99t get much for it, but at least it d= idn=E2=80=99t go > to a recycler. > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Long story very short: > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored > > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and > was > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again > for > > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter > > it to the wind. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago in > >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > >> -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: > "General > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > Tom > >> Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer > >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer Heist > of > >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? > > > --===============0473679787866074692==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:14:33 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 13:14:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3714511055053115144==" --===============3714511055053115144== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There were many benefactors from my loss, many innocent, some not. Those who benefitted from ill-begotten gains will pay for it in other ways, if they haven't already. Such is the natural law. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 12:38 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/17/22 12:52 PM, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: > > Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the remaining lower > > priority pieces to the first person who could clear the locker over > > a weekend. I didn’t get much for it, but at least it didn’t go > > to a recycler. > > Hopefully you boot strapped someone into the collecting hobby. }:-) > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > --===============3714511055053115144==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 17 20:20:07 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:18:57 -0600 Message-ID: <1f002e38-73cf-93c7-04ef-a925a752902c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0218820635017639820==" --===============0218820635017639820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/17/22 2:14 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > There were many benefactors from my loss, many innocent, some not. Understood. > Those who benefitted from ill-begotten gains will pay for it in other ways, > if they haven't already. Such is the natural law. Agreed. For the record, my comment was directed at Ryan's sale of lower value to him equipment, not your loss. -- I am sorry for your loss Sellam. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============0218820635017639820==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 21:11:59 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 17:11:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3369485713412919367==" --===============3369485713412919367== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shoulda paid the rent. A sad tale indeed. On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 4:11 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The good news is that most of my best stuff was either already with me or I > was able to get out, including my two Lisa 1's, my (straight) PDP-8, and > several other precious items. I long since sold off most of this to pay to > live, since at the same time they destroyed my collection they destroyed my > business (not to mention my life's work). > > I've gone on to build a new collection out of the old, one that is--like my > original collection--unrivaled anywhere on the planet. But this time I've > erected castle walls around it, surrounded by a moat filled with > alligators. > > Sellam > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 11:58 AM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I didn=E2=80=99t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection befo= re being > > locked out again. I know losing any of it is terrible, but I=E2=80=99m g= uessing > > you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when recovering > the > > 20%, such as your Lisa 1? > > > > I kept my collection in storage lockers for years. I kept moving to > > larger and larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because my > > collecting got out of control. Prices kept going up every year and it > was > > a nightmare having to pay what I did just to store the collection. > > Fortunately I was able to move to a house and relocated the collection > to > > the basement. Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the > > remaining lower priority pieces to the first person who could clear the > > locker over a weekend. I didn=E2=80=99t get much for it, but at least it= didn=E2=80=99t > go > > to a recycler. > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Long story very short: > > > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was > stored > > > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and > > was > > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again > > for > > > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to > scatter > > > it to the wind. > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > >> You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago > in > > >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > >> -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: > > "General > > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > > Tom > > >> Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer > > >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer > Heist > > of > > >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? > > > > > > > --===============3369485713412919367==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Mon Oct 17 22:48:47 2022 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:40:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB558066B142EC58636245CF9BED299=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8438101014442573486==" --===============8438101014442573486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/17/2022 2:57 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made >> the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was >> cloned by the Soviets. >> >> I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite >> poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. >> Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned. > > I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the > cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR > via India who had no problems with violating their agreements > with their allies. > > Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the > VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country > in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC. > > bill > In the mid 1980's I went to inspect a complete VAX 780 that had been confiscated by the US Gov't and was to be auctioned off. This was in the Wash DC area and the computer was configured for 50Hz power and was destined for  South Africa.  Its true destination was somewhere else, probably Russia.  It didn't make sense that the auction was open to the public, but the equipment was export restricted. --===============8438101014442573486==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 23:12:49 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:12:31 -0400 Message-ID: <248fdd86-3d06-4945-e41e-d7bf91fc4fb2@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7516870745893470082==" --===============7516870745893470082== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit IIRC a broker in Toronto was arrested for illegally shipping a black market VAX to the USSR. The sad part of it was that it would have been quote a legal end-use if the appropriate paperwork was done, but this made it four times the price!, Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-17 18:40, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/17/2022 2:57 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made >>> the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was >>> cloned by the Soviets. >>> >>> I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite >>> poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. >>> Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned. >> >> I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the >> cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR >> via India who had no problems with violating their agreements >> with their allies. >> >> Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the >> VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country >> in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC. >> >> bill >> > In the mid 1980's I went to inspect a complete VAX 780 that had been > confiscated by the US Gov't and was to be auctioned off. This was in > the Wash DC area and the computer was configured for 50Hz power and > was destined for  South Africa.  Its true destination was somewhere > else, probably Russia.  It didn't make sense that the auction was open > to the public, but the equipment was export restricted. > --===============7516870745893470082==-- From trash80@internode.on.net Mon Oct 17 23:13:22 2022 From: Kevin Parker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:13:03 +1100 Message-ID: <038b01d8e27e$026e9d70$074bd850$@internode.on.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6493927254256652500==" --===============6493927254256652500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember that Sellam and I remember visiting your facility on a trip my wif= e and I did to the US. It was very impressive collection and that=E2=80=99s a= n understatement.=20 It=E2=80=99s a shame all that was lost =E2=98=B9 It served to reinforce my ap= proach to this s tuff, grab first ask questions later otherwise it becomes la= ndfill. Apologies if this is not appropriate for this list but your landlord was a fl= og. Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk =20 Sent: Monday, 17 October 2022 19:55 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Long story very short: Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored and = wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and was able t= o pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again for good. T= hen sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter it to the w= ind. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk wrote: > You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago=20 > in non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk <=20 > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To:=20 > "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc:=20 > Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage=20 > Computer Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great=20 > VintageComputer Heist of 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and whe= re andwhy? --===============6493927254256652500==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 23:17:29 2022 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:17:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <038b01d8e27e$026e9d70$074bd850$@internode.on.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6679439509083857521==" --===============6679439509083857521== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Own your land. Museum or individual. -- Will On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:13 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > I remember that Sellam and I remember visiting your facility on a trip my w= ife and I did to the US. It was very impressive collection and that=E2=80=99s= an understatement. > > It=E2=80=99s a shame all that was lost =E2=98=B9 It served to reinforce my = approach to this s tuff, grab first ask questions later otherwise it becomes = landfill. > > Apologies if this is not appropriate for this list but your landlord was a = flog. > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > Sent: Monday, 17 October 2022 19:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 > > Long story very short: > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored an= d wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and was able= to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again for good. = Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter it to the= wind. > > Sellam > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk > wrote: > > > You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago > > in non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: > > "General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > > Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage > > Computer Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great > > VintageComputer Heist of 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and w= here andwhy? > --===============6679439509083857521==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 17 23:56:34 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 16:56:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3021854748356176791==" --===============3021854748356176791== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I'm trying not to extend this conversation, because I am not interested in a pity-party, but this kind of comment is insulting. Of course I should have paid the rent. And vy the way, as soon as I had it, I offered it, but they refused the tender. Regardless, when someone gets evicted, they and their stuff get thrown out of the building. The landlord doesn't get to keep a million dollars of property over $4,000 of missed rent. It is not lawful to liquidate any of the tenant's property to offset the debt, unless they go through a long and drawn out legal process. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 2:11 PM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Shoulda paid the rent. > > A sad tale indeed. > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 4:11 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The good news is that most of my best stuff was either already with me > or I > > was able to get out, including my two Lisa 1's, my (straight) PDP-8, and > > several other precious items. I long since sold off most of this to pay > to > > live, since at the same time they destroyed my collection they destroyed > my > > business (not to mention my life's work). > > > > I've gone on to build a new collection out of the old, one that is--like > my > > original collection--unrivaled anywhere on the planet. But this time > I've > > erected castle walls around it, surrounded by a moat filled with > > alligators. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 11:58 AM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > I didn=E2=80=99t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection be= fore > being > > > locked out again. I know losing any of it is terrible, but I=E2=80=99m > guessing > > > you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when recovering > > the > > > 20%, such as your Lisa 1? > > > > > > I kept my collection in storage lockers for years. I kept moving to > > > larger and larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because > my > > > collecting got out of control. Prices kept going up every year and it > > was > > > a nightmare having to pay what I did just to store the collection. > > > Fortunately I was able to move to a house and relocated the collection > > to > > > the basement. Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the > > > remaining lower priority pieces to the first person who could clear the > > > locker over a weekend. I didn=E2=80=99t get much for it, but at least = it > didn=E2=80=99t > > go > > > to a recycler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > Long story very short: > > > > > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was > > stored > > > > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access > and > > > was > > > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out > again > > > for > > > > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to > > scatter > > > > it to the wind. > > > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years > ago > > in > > > >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > > >> -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: > > > "General > > > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: > > > Tom > > > >> Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage > Computer > > > >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer > > Heist > > > of > > > >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============3021854748356176791==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 01:03:43 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 21:03:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1440325894178988559==" --===============1440325894178988559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who presently has the largest predominantly "vintage computing" collections in 2022? I sometimes wonder what the cutoff definition is for "very large collection" ... 1000 individual computers? Or do you judge by square feet filled? I have seen entire houses full, 5000sq ft warehouses, entire homes.stuffed to the brim. But there is a price to pay. Free stuff has a storage cost until it ain't so free anymore. It's hard to maintain a large collection and prevent its deterioration. Reminds me of the consolidation of planetary debris into the solar system. By 2022 there has been a lot of consolidation. Some of us started accumulating systems in the 1990s or even before, and are still at it. From.the looks.of what was being sold at vcfmw we're a ways off from running out of stuff. Bill --===============1440325894178988559==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 18 01:17:25 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:17:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1371282115656894224==" --===============1371282115656894224== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Who presently has the largest predominantly "vintage computing" collections > in 2022? I sometimes wonder what the cutoff definition is for "very large > collection" ... 1000 individual computers? Or do you judge by square feet > filled? Well "largest" would have to be square footage, cubic yardage, or weight. Sellam lost many metric buttloads. "Most extensive" could be number of computers, completeness of various subsets ("one each of every model of XXX"), widest variety, etc. Other quantifications could include amount of power consumed if they were to all be up at the same time. An extensive collection of "pocket computers" could be quite extensive, without incurring as much of a storage load. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1371282115656894224==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 01:31:21 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 21:30:54 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3076044664990036384==" --===============3076044664990036384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable However you define it, who has the largest private collections? Is there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection? I hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes unmanageable. Bill On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 9:17 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > Who presently has the largest predominantly "vintage computing" collectio= ns > > in 2022? I sometimes wonder what the cutoff definition is for "very large > > collection" ... 1000 individual computers? Or do you judge by square feet > > filled? > > Well "largest" would have to be square footage, cubic yardage, or weight. > > Sellam lost many metric buttloads. > > > "Most extensive" could be number of computers, completeness of various > subsets ("one each of every model of XXX"), widest variety, etc. > > > Other quantifications could include amount of power consumed if they were > to all be up at the same time. > > An extensive collection of "pocket computers" could be quite extensive, > without incurring as much of a storage load. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3076044664990036384==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Tue Oct 18 02:22:25 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:22:07 -0700 Message-ID: <7C5663A3-C267-4B7D-97B6-EF2067BEE6FC@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1774113407097607787==" --===============1774113407097607787== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Oct 17, 2022, at 6:30 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > However you define it, who has the largest private collections? Is > there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection? I > hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes > unmanageable. > Bill I=E2=80=99m happy to say that I don=E2=80=99t have the largest, but I will sa= y that I=E2=80=99ve considered that my collection to be too large for many ye= ars. There is a lot to say about a collection becoming unmanageable at a cer= tain size. I think one of the primary factors is how much time the collector= has to dedicate to their collection. Zane --===============1774113407097607787==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 18 02:40:01 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:39:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7C5663A3-C267-4B7D-97B6-EF2067BEE6FC@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6033252229353355669==" --===============6033252229353355669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable . . . and there is the point where it crosses over fromyou owning the collection, to the collection owning you. On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Oct 17, 2022, at 6:30 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> However you define it, who has the largest private collections? Is >> there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection? I >> hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes >> unmanageable. >> Bill > > I=E2=80=99m happy to say that I don=E2=80=99t have the largest, but I will = say that I=E2=80=99ve considered that my collection to be too large for many = years. There is a lot to say about a collection becoming unmanageable at a c= ertain size. I think one of the primary factors is how much time the collect= or has to dedicate to their collection. > > Zane > --===============6033252229353355669==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Oct 18 02:51:15 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 19:50:57 -0700 Message-ID: <1MrPuF-1pVnYD3Zsl-00oYlz@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2964371187469575410==" --===============2964371187469575410== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I think one of the primary factors is=C2=A0>how much time the collector has = to dedicate to> their collection.And how much money....-Ali --===============2964371187469575410==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 03:23:08 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:22:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3526735603456512265==" --===============3526735603456512265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to claim "largest privately held collection on the planet" and no one ever challenged me. I like to think of it in terms of atoms, because empty space is just a vacuum. On that account, I control a tremendous number of atoms. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 6:31 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > However you define it, who has the largest private collections? Is > there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection? I > hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes > unmanageable. > Bill > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 9:17 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Who presently has the largest predominantly "vintage computing" > collections > > > in 2022? I sometimes wonder what the cutoff definition is for "very > large > > > collection" ... 1000 individual computers? Or do you judge by square > feet > > > filled? > > > > Well "largest" would have to be square footage, cubic yardage, or weight. > > > > Sellam lost many metric buttloads. > > > > > > "Most extensive" could be number of computers, completeness of various > > subsets ("one each of every model of XXX"), widest variety, etc. > > > > > > Other quantifications could include amount of power consumed if they were > > to all be up at the same time. > > > > An extensive collection of "pocket computers" could be quite extensive, > > without incurring as much of a storage load. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============3526735603456512265==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 18 03:29:45 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:29:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0995702222191298262==" --===============0995702222191298262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I used to claim "largest privately held collection on the planet" and no > one ever challenged me. > I like to think of it in terms of atoms, because empty space is just a > vacuum. > On that account, I control a tremendous number of atoms. > Sellam Have you thought of trying to quantify the number of computrons? Or the mass of the magic smoke? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0995702222191298262==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 05:18:52 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 01:18:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1252830159763092279==" --===============1252830159763092279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not saying that what the landlord did was ethically, morally or even legally correct, just that you could have avoided the whole disaster; I'm sure the community would have gladly chipped in to help, but I think your attitude at the time was not very helpful.. You certainly had (and have) my sympathy, but at the same time I was pissed because IMO as de facto 'curator' of a pretty special collection, much of it no doubt donated, you had a certain responsibility to protect it. As you say, let's not revive the whole sad tale; glad to hear you're back on your feet. mike On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:56 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Mike, > > I'm trying not to extend this conversation, because I am not interested in > a pity-party, but this kind of comment is insulting. Of course I should > have paid the rent. And vy the way, as soon as I had it, I offered it, but > they refused the tender. > > Regardless, when someone gets evicted, they and their stuff get thrown out > of the building. The landlord doesn't get to keep a million dollars of > property over $4,000 of missed rent. It is not lawful to liquidate any of > the tenant's property to offset the debt, unless they go through a long and > drawn out legal process. > > Sellam > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 2:11 PM Mike Stein via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Shoulda paid the rent. > > > > A sad tale indeed. > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 4:11 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > The good news is that most of my best stuff was either already with me > > or I > > > was able to get out, including my two Lisa 1's, my (straight) PDP-8, > and > > > several other precious items. I long since sold off most of this to > pay > > to > > > live, since at the same time they destroyed my collection they > destroyed > > my > > > business (not to mention my life's work). > > > > > > I've gone on to build a new collection out of the old, one that > is--like > > my > > > original collection--unrivaled anywhere on the planet. But this time > > I've > > > erected castle walls around it, surrounded by a moat filled with > > > alligators. > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 11:58 AM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > I didn’t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection before > > being > > > > locked out again. I know losing any of it is terrible, but I’m > > guessing > > > > you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when > recovering > > > the > > > > 20%, such as your Lisa 1? > > > > > > > > I kept my collection in storage lockers for years. I kept moving to > > > > larger and larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because > > my > > > > collecting got out of control. Prices kept going up every year and > it > > > was > > > > a nightmare having to pay what I did just to store the collection. > > > > Fortunately I was able to move to a house and relocated the > collection > > > to > > > > the basement. Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the > > > > remaining lower priority pieces to the first person who could clear > the > > > > locker over a weekend. I didn’t get much for it, but at least it > > didn’t > > > go > > > > to a recycler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Long story very short: > > > > > > > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was > > > stored > > > > > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access > > and > > > > was > > > > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out > > again > > > > for > > > > > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to > > > scatter > > > > > it to the wind. > > > > > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years > > ago > > > in > > > > >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > > > >> -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > > > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: > > > > "General > > > > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: > > > > Tom > > > > >> Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage > > Computer > > > > >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer > > > Heist > > > > of > > > > >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============1252830159763092279==-- From ethan@757.org Tue Oct 18 05:44:52 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 01:44:35 -0400 Message-ID: <5dd02b5c-188b-71e1-8543-25e0d4de75a@757.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8928138239776901558==" --===============8928138239776901558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However you define it, who has the largest private collections? Is > there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection? I > hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes > unmanageable. > Bill Largest one I know of would by System Source in Maryland? And an awesome one at that. - Ethan --===============8928138239776901558==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 05:53:42 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 01:53:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8346040647566547842==" --===============8346040647566547842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Amen! On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:17 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Own your land. > > Museum or individual. > > -- > Will > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:13 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I remember that Sellam and I remember visiting your facility on a trip > my wife and I did to the US. It was very impressive collection and that’s > an understatement. > > > > It’s a shame all that was lost ☹ It served to reinforce my approach to > this s tuff, grab first ask questions later otherwise it becomes landfill. > > > > Apologies if this is not appropriate for this list but your landlord was > a flog. > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > > Sent: Monday, 17 October 2022 19:55 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Sellam Abraham > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 > > > > Long story very short: > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored > and wouldn't let me back in. Had to go to court. Regained access and was > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again for > good. Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter > it to the wind. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago > > > in non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > > -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22 1:31 AM (GMT-08:00) To: > > > "General > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: > > > Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage > > > Computer Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great > > > VintageComputer Heist of 2012". What was that about? Who stole what > and where andwhy? > > > --===============8346040647566547842==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Oct 18 07:07:29 2022 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 08:57:45 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1875501136791586098==" --===============1875501136791586098== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > > Hi all,=20 > >=20 > > After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (= perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Sovi= ets.=20 >=20 > That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones. Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in several variants. There are the DVKs https://www.wikiwand.com/en/DVK, the Elektronika BK Homecomputer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK or the school computer UKNS=20 https://www.wikiwand.com/en/UKNC (C means an S in cyrillic letters) I own an Elektronika E60 which is an LSI11 Computer, but all Connectors and Board dimensions are metric. The PCB's are not "clones", that are developments from USSR with their own chips. This was the machine on which tetris got developed! The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806V= M2 etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was the T11. >=20 > > I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and dep= ite poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, = depite not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. >=20 > You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic = lettering is the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the ver= y best". Yes, but this was nonsense, the first VAX CPU Chip from USSR was an Equivalent of an VAX11/750..but the VAX11/750 never hat an single CPU Chip! The CPU consisted of large Boards full of TTL and Sequencers. Sorry...no clone. They used the DEC Processor Manual and build their own chips. The K1801VM3 can address 4Mbyte of Memory. This is an Elektronika MK90 using an CMOS H1806VM2 CPU.. not really a clone ehy? https://elektronika.su/en/calculators/elektronika-mk-90/ MK85 is a smaller variant. Same for the GDR, There was an PDP11 build from 8 Bit Bitslice Processors, the Robotron K1600. They used 2708 like Eproms for the Control store and the sequencers...this was the worlds slowest PDP11.. For a relativly short Time I was Adminstrator on a Robotron K1840 at the university of mining in Freiberg. The RVS K1840 was a direct Clone of a DEC VAX11/780, Boards where interchangeable with the original. Later the ZMD Dresden produced a clone of the VAX 78032 Chip, the U80701. This is a MV-II CPU. > > However, i=E2=80=99m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either th= e 18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather= lacklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less dem= and for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard t= o believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have b= een attempted.=20 > >=20 > > Does anyone here have any information on such clones? >=20 > Here's something: >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Computer_Factory >=20 > That's not the only Soviet clone factory, but it's an interesting one. I h= ave a brochure from them, which I think I got when they visited DEC in the 19= 80s (which takes some chutzpah!). The brochure is not all that clear, but th= e Wikipedia article says their 32-bit machine "SM 1700" is a VAX clone. Appa= rently a number of their other machines were not clones but original designs. >=20 > paul Sorry, I have no idea about PDP8 or PDP10 clones. Regards, Holm --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============1875501136791586098==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Oct 18 07:27:26 2022 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 09:27:09 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2714176939486709952==" --===============2714176939486709952== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: [..] For the GDR I don't know of any PDP8 clones, There was the "Kleinrechner Systeme K4100 and K4200", don't know much about the first one, but the 2nd was compatible to the honeywell DDP516 Series, no clone in any way, they are totally different from the in- and the outside. The Bigger machines from the ESER Series Mainfraimes where compatible to the 3270 but no "clones" either. For the Robotron K1630 (K1600 PDP11 systems) existed an Hardware emulator PCB set that could emulate the K4200 on this machine..faster then the original. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============2714176939486709952==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Oct 18 07:45:48 2022 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 09:45:30 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8384641309570972849==" --===============8384641309570972849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Hi all,=20 >=20 > After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (pe= rhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviet= s.=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depit= e poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, de= pite not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. >=20 > However, i=E2=80=99m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the = 18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather l= acklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less deman= d for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to = believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have bee= n attempted.=20 >=20 > Does anyone here have any information on such clones? >=20 > Cheers,=20 >=20 > Josh Rice Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russians or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of computers, that's simply wrong. The demand for "clones" are only existed since it was pretty much ineffective to develop all the interesting software for all the own stuff again, you know there are many man years necessary..in the east and in the west. Software clould easily copied, harware couldn't, it has to be build. Therefore it isn't effective to clone parts that aren't available locally, where other parts that could do the job are. Therefore most of the machines aren't clones. (don't come and say that copying software is illegal, there was not only one illegal thing that NSA/CIA/GCHQ has done to that time, so why don't do the same? It where totally different economical systems) The PDP11 architecture looked interesting, so they build compatible computers, not clones, on that this software could run. The soviet SM-1420 (~ PDP11/34) (Wikipedia stated that they where build in the former GDR also, wich is simply wrong) used AM2901 compatible Chips to build the CPU (not the FPU!), which wasn't done from DEC in any of ther PDP11's as far as I know. Things got "cloned" by reading the manuals and developing an own hardware that fits and used available parts. There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones". Regards, Holm --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============8384641309570972849==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 08:46:51 2022 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 09:46:36 +0100 Message-ID: <104001d8e2ce$22653cb0$672fb610$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5dd02b5c-188b-71e1-8543-25e0d4de75a@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2290812638961778524==" --===============2290812638961778524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan O'Toole via cctalk > Sent: 18 October 2022 06:45 > To: Bill Degnan via cctalk > Cc: Ethan O'Toole > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections > > > However you define it, who has the largest private collections? Is > > there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection? I > > hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes > > unmanageable. > > Bill > > Largest one I know of would by System Source in Maryland? > > And an awesome one at that. > > - Ethan I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly documented... https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ .. but many are very private about what they own.... Dave --===============2290812638961778524==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Tue Oct 18 11:52:31 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 12:52:14 +0100 Message-ID: <6d4d0625.d65.183eaefe786.Webtop.105@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4890147702147260084==" --===============4890147702147260084== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------ Original Message ------ From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "Holm Tiffe" Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: Hi all, After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets. I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned. However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have been attempted. Does anyone here have any information on such clones? Cheers, Josh Rice Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russians or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of computers, that's simply wrong. Hi, I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean a 1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC clone" is still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs. I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their own machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more valuable to copy western designs than design their own domestic architectures from scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were literal "clones", down to the silicon gates. Cheers, Josh --===============4890147702147260084==-- From mark.tapley@swri.org Tue Oct 18 13:12:45 2022 From: "Tapley, Mark B." To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: seeking: vme chassis, in seattle Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 13:12:25 +0000 Message-ID: <319F74C9-F476-40CB-B58D-5C699BD37DA0@swri.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6330411327225218770==" --===============6330411327225218770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C3=A6strid, my institution is disposing of what I think is a VME chassis here in San Anto= nio. That is not particularly accessible by Seattle transit, but if you are w= illing and able to pay for shipping I think we can arrange to get it to you i= nstead of our dumpster. The unit has no power supply (room for two) and is missing most of its close-= out panels. I think it=E2=80=99s mostly just a box and rack-mount rails, but = it does have what looks to me like a VME backplane in it. It=E2=80=99s heavy and oversized for just the VME cards - maybe an 8U rack mo= unt box? At least 18=E2=80=9D tall. So shipping may not be a reasonable thing= , I don=E2=80=99t know. Let me know if you are interested, and I think I can get photos of it tomorro= w or today. - Mark 210-522-6025 office On Oct 11, 2022, at 5:24 PM, =C3=A6strid smith via cctalk > wrote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] hi folks, i'm looking for a vme chassis. i have a we 321sb vme cpu card (derivative of a 3b2) and it wants to run! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3b2-vme.jpg not super picky about the details but if it matches aesthetically that would be neat. should be functional, i'd rather not start another electronics project right now. also interested in peripheral cards. ideally, somewhere in seattle that's reasonably accessible by transit, or if you're willing to ship that would work too. thanks! -- =C3=A6strid smith (she/her) =3D<[ c y b e r ]>=3D antique telephone collectors association member #4870 --===============6330411327225218770==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 18 13:19:16 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 09:18:57 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0487301826060539371==" --===============0487301826060539371== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 18, 2022, at 2:57 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> ... >>=20 >> You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic= lettering is the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the ve= ry best". >=20 > Yes, but this was nonsense, the first VAX CPU Chip from USSR was an > Equivalent of an VAX11/750..but the VAX11/750 never hat an single CPU > Chip! The CPU consisted of large Boards full of TTL and Sequencers. > Sorry...no clone. They used the DEC Processor Manual and build their own > chips. I assume the story about the message is accurate (I heard it from a senior gu= y at DEC who should know) but that doesn't mean it was actually cloned. It s= eems to be an engineer reaction to hearing about their earlier work being sto= len. paul --===============0487301826060539371==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Tue Oct 18 14:09:51 2022 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 15:00:47 +0100 Message-ID: <0b163e7e-c823-152a-2072-0461f2b589e2@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1988253551629060254==" --===============1988253551629060254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18/10/2022 14:18, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I assume the story about the message is accurate (I heard it from a senior = guy at DEC who should know) but that doesn't mean it was actually cloned. It= seems to be an engineer reaction to hearing about their earlier work being s= tolen. > > paul Unless someone has gone to a good deal of trouble, then the story is=20 true: https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html Given what has been done for the Z80 and 6502, it should be possible to=20 recreate an exact clone of a CVAX with just a little effort (:-)). I=20 wonder if anyone has considered a MiSTer core for it? Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============1988253551629060254==-- From ethan@757.org Tue Oct 18 14:15:21 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:15:04 -0400 Message-ID: <5f9a7ee2-6956-fccc-f0de-201db4c2f58@757.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7736987392369513903==" --===============7736987392369513903== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Own your land. > Museum or individual. You never own your land. They can always take it. - Ethan --===============7736987392369513903==-- From ethan@757.org Tue Oct 18 14:26:25 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:26:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <104001d8e2ce$22653cb0$672fb610$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3310699181972804748==" --===============3310699181972804748== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly > documented... > https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ > .. but many are very private about what they own.... > Dave Indeed! Looking down their list it's quite impressive but I think System Source has them beat. I don't see a list of systems on the system source website though so I have to go from memory and what I know. Not sure how big the collections are behind the scenes at Living Computer Museum, CHM or that place down in Georgia. And who knows how many other Computer Reset Warehouses are out there that we don't know about. -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============3310699181972804748==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 14:37:24 2022 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:36:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5f9a7ee2-6956-fccc-f0de-201db4c2f58@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5780554781662362400==" --===============5780554781662362400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean. Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for people taking your land. -- Will On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:15 AM Ethan O'Toole wrote: > > > Own your land. > > Museum or individual. > > You never own your land. They can always take it. > > - Ethan > --===============5780554781662362400==-- From ethan@757.org Tue Oct 18 14:42:25 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:42:05 -0400 Message-ID: <9867d7a-fd33-f385-2154-3f6451ecf0f1@757.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5337176854305014855==" --===============5337176854305014855== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean. > Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for > people taking your land. And for the younger crowd it's very expensive now. Not like the old days (assuming you live near a job center.) - Ethan --===============5337176854305014855==-- From toby@telegraphics.net Tue Oct 18 14:45:19 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:01:20 -0400 Message-ID: <043f3c52-2d56-de50-96bc-082a5ece7814@telegraphics.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4939734929248815651==" --===============4939734929248815651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> >> >>> On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (= perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Sovi= ets. >> >> That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones. >=20 > Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in > several variants. ... > The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N180= 6VM2 > etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was > the T11. >=20 J11? --Toby --===============4939734929248815651==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Tue Oct 18 14:49:08 2022 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 14:42:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6d4d0625.d65.183eaefe786.Webtop.105@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8361487779159524397==" --===============8361487779159524397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an excellent video on the history of Soviet computing and the causes = of their lagging behind the west. I cannot comment on the accuracy since I am= no expert in this subject. But a very interesting and informative video. htt= ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DdnHdqPBrtH8=20 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Rice via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 7:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Joshua Rice Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones ------ Original Message ------ From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"=20 Cc: "Holm Tiffe" Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: Hi all, After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perh= aps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets. I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite = poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depi= te not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. However, i=E2=80=99m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18= -bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lac= klustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less demand = for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to be= lieve that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have been attempted. Does anyone here have any information on such clones? Cheers, Josh Rice Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russians = or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of com= puters, that's simply wrong. Hi, I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean a 1-t= o-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC clone" is s= till used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs. I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their own = machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more valuable= to copy western designs than design their own domestic architectures from sc= ratch. There was also plenty of designs that were literal "clones", down to t= he silicon gates. Cheers, Josh --===============8361487779159524397==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 18 14:57:42 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:57:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <043f3c52-2d56-de50-96bc-082a5ece7814@telegraphics.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6304133735728829241==" --===============6304133735728829241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 18, 2022, at 10:01 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >> Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi all, >>>>=20 >>>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the = (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Sov= iets. >>>=20 >>> That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones. >> Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in >> several variants. ... >> The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N18= 06VM2 >> etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was >> the T11. >=20 > J11? Single package, multiple die. Same goes for F11. paul --===============6304133735728829241==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Tue Oct 18 14:59:29 2022 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:18:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1619922649287469110==" --===============1619922649287469110== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 09:45:30AM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: >=20 > There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more > intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using > computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones". >=20 Saratov-2 seems to be PDP-8 "clone" Has some similarity to PDP-8/L but not a physical clone. Assume was software compatible. https://rusue.com/cemetery-of-soviet-computers/ https://www.ebay.com/itm/294204864659?hash=3Ditem447ff9f893:g:7IEAAOSwmzFhNXl= C&amdata=3Denc%3AAQAHAAAA4POG7y32aJfTQvvfUd917XJgyMuzn3bC6ggTWUJ7kuxstYRdipmO= JPc7e%2B%2BcGN8nMYqAC8QtvIxQCALYUJIBhz6Bn%2BJpTm9GDHlos2tz1WnQUz27s%2FbFXLFX0= o9kU98y2S8z8zLoRCbygoCWFugy%2FMk0S2VwRVdbVAEAnwseLr0DfeEcTRgDcGE96cJHoNuHXU5T= Zyv2bd63EcNdVtj7g0hBKXXnoPJ0MuiFwRjQYgdRnD%2B0FS0cAfE1N%2FYuc6mOwQB1cm3pgkLDx= W4sHJ9IkolGdpmpxkU4btt8XDF0n9PZ%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLrMtv1g --===============1619922649287469110==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Oct 18 15:41:33 2022 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:41:15 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <043f3c52-2d56-de50-96bc-082a5ece7814@telegraphics.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7949192045530665035==" --===============7949192045530665035== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > > Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >=20 > >> > >> > >>> On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the= (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the So= viets. > >> > >> That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones. > >=20 > > Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in > > several variants. ... > > The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1= 806VM2 > > etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was > > the T11. > >=20 >=20 > J11? >=20 > --Toby Yes, K1836 series as far as I remember, but the K1801VM3 is a much more developed CPU as the J11 is and is a single Chip CPU was the J11 is not. Regards, Holm --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============7949192045530665035==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 15:46:58 2022 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 11:46:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4c18ed05-8258-e902-9c3b-1b98f9b80232@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3590241589911984012==" --===============3590241589911984012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and > greater user for the public good. Those would be the "significant barriers to cross". -- Will --===============3590241589911984012==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Oct 18 15:52:29 2022 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:52:13 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6d4d0625.d65.183eaefe786.Webtop.105@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4972218900469616366==" --===============4972218900469616366== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean > a 1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC > clone" is still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs. Ok, sounds better, but the russians rolled out ther own CPUs too, that makes a lot of difference in my eyes. > > I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their > own machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more > valuable to copy western designs than design their own domestic > architectures from scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were > literal "clones", down to the silicon gates. > > Cheers, Josh > From what I read in the last 20 years I would state that the PDP11's are far more spread all over the country as they where in the US. Belive it or not. Most of us know that the PDP11's archtecture is an elegant design and it was the blueprint of Z8000 and MC68000 (MSP430). It must have had favored from russian programmers..as I already wrote above even Tetris was programmed on a russian PDP11. ...but this hasn't happened since the CPUs got copied, they rolled out ther own thing. Even the "cloned" Z80 from the former GDR wasn't a clone at all. Zilog Z80 have Bugs in the Flag handling for example, which the GDR U880 has corrected. One must know what he is doing to do that. The russians "cloned" CPUs that never existet in original. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============4972218900469616366==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 16:02:56 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 11:02:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3232357467862493105==" --===============3232357467862493105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen system source both the museum part and the warehouse in the back. The rhode island.museum and warehouse is probably larger. Not that system source is not substantial. Bill On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 9:26 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly > > documented... > > https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ > > .. but many are very private about what they own.... > > Dave > > Indeed! Looking down their list it's quite impressive but I think System > Source has them beat. I don't see a list of systems on the system source > website though so I have to go from memory and what I know. > > Not sure how big the collections are behind the scenes at Living Computer > Museum, CHM or that place down in Georgia. And who knows how many other > Computer Reset Warehouses are out there that we don't know about. > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > --===============3232357467862493105==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Tue Oct 18 16:09:54 2022 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 18:09:34 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0486612046736447831==" --===============0486612046736447831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eugene? Most people that are named Eugene (or Eugen in German) are descendands of russian people or russians...and named Jewegeny. :-) Excellent is ...wrong, starting at the point that the eniac should be the first electronic calculator, it wasn't. There are more faults. The cause for the lag in computing technology in the east is simple: the planned economy, not the decision to use one or another memory technology. The CMEA decided to build computer components in countries w/o any experience in HiTec, as an example it was forbidden to produce magnet tapes in the GDR (cars with 4 cycle engines too and more than 100HP was forbidden too), tapes and disks should be produced in bulgaria..for all of the CMEA countries. What do you expect then to come out? Regards, Holm W2HX via cctalk wrote: > This is an excellent video on the history of Soviet computing and the cause= s of their lagging behind the west. I cannot comment on the accuracy since I = am no expert in this subject. But a very interesting and informative video. h= ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DdnHdqPBrtH8=20 >=20 > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/vid= eos >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Rice via cctalk =20 > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 7:52 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Joshua Rice > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"=20 > > Cc: "Holm Tiffe" > Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45 > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones > Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (pe= rhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviet= s. > I=E2=80=99m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depit= e poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, de= pite not strictly a =E2=80=9CPDP=E2=80=9D, the VAX series was also cloned. > However, i=E2=80=99m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the = 18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather l= acklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less deman= d for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to = believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and > PDP-10 machines would have been attempted. > Does anyone here have any information on such clones? > Cheers, > Josh Rice > Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russian= s or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of c= omputers, that's simply wrong. >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean a 1= -to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC clone" is= still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs. >=20 > I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their ow= n machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more valuab= le to copy western designs than design their own domestic architectures from = scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were literal "clones", down to= the silicon gates. >=20 > Cheers, Josh >=20 --=20 Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,=20 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============0486612046736447831==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 16:21:30 2022 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 12:21:02 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6696668617355875831==" --===============6696668617355875831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I went to the Large Scale Systems Museum in New Kensington, PA (USA) a few weeks ago. I've never seen such a large collection outside of the CHM in Mountain View, CA (USA) but I've also only seen three collections haha. The LSSM's main area was amazing (and most items are operational) but the systems in their off-site storage area blew my mind... Dave the curator is an endless well of knowledge, too. I highly recommend a visit. =3D] On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 12:03 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have seen system source both the museum part and the warehouse in the > back. The rhode island.museum and warehouse is probably larger. Not that > system source is not substantial. > Bill > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 9:26 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly > > > documented... > > > https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ > > > .. but many are very private about what they own.... > > > Dave > > > > Indeed! Looking down their list it's quite impressive but I think System > > Source has them beat. I don't see a list of systems on the system source > > website though so I have to go from memory and what I know. > > > > Not sure how big the collections are behind the scenes at Living Computer > > Museum, CHM or that place down in Georgia. And who knows how many other > > Computer Reset Warehouses are out there that we don't know about. > > > > -- > > : Ethan O'Toole > > > > > > > --===============6696668617355875831==-- From toby@telegraphics.net Tue Oct 18 16:32:55 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 11:45:51 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2659335640082466498==" --===============2659335640082466498== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-10-18 10:57 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 18, 2022, at 10:01 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >>> Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the= (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the So= viets. >>>> >>>> That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones. >>> Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in >>> several variants. ... >>> The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1= 806VM2 >>> etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was >>> the T11. >> >> J11? >=20 > Single package, multiple die. Same goes for F11. >=20 Oops, yes forgot about that. More coffee needed. --T > paul >=20 --===============2659335640082466498==-- From ethan@757.org Tue Oct 18 16:41:53 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 12:41:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3188079409044017303==" --===============3188079409044017303== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have seen system source both the museum part and the warehouse in the > back. The rhode island.museum and warehouse is probably larger. Not that > system source is not substantial. > Bill Ohhh yea, you might of visited System Source before the expansion. Did you see the Cray 1? There is the Cray room now with the raised floor. Also Xerox Altos systems and all that. Tons of other systems with that haul (800+?) - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole --===============3188079409044017303==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Tue Oct 18 17:12:52 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 12:12:16 -0500 Message-ID: <20221018171237.C15B981F66@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <5f9a7ee2-6956-fccc-f0de-201db4c2f58@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6812715972578860364==" --===============6812715972578860364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 09:15 AM 10/18/2022, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>Own your land. >>Museum or individual. > >You never own your land. They can always take it. Far more probable than someone taking your property? Wanting to give it up. Needing to give it up. Or your death, and then someone else wants and needs to get rid of it. A year ago today, someone made a great offer on my office building and I had less than 30 days to move out 30 years and 4,500 square feet of crap. I managed to down-size into about 1,500 square feet. - John --===============6812715972578860364==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue Oct 18 17:41:01 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:45 -0500 Message-ID: <4c18ed05-8258-e902-9c3b-1b98f9b80232@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3518634731544546475==" --===============3518634731544546475== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and greater user for the public good. On 10/18/2022 9:36 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean. > > Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for > people taking your land. > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:15 AM Ethan O'Toole wrote: >>> Own your land. >>> Museum or individual. >> You never own your land. They can always take it. >> >> - Ethan >> --===============3518634731544546475==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:02:44 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 14:02:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4c18ed05-8258-e902-9c3b-1b98f9b80232@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1958947381248420669==" --===============1958947381248420669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/18/22 11:43, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and > greater user for the public good. > As the people and businesses along I-83 in Harrisburg, PA will gladly tell you. :-) bill --===============1958947381248420669==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:05:23 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 14:05:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6207957502637363018==" --===============6207957502637363018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/18/22 12:21, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I went to the Large Scale Systems Museum in New Kensington, PA (USA) a few > weeks ago. I've never seen such a large collection outside of the CHM in > Mountain View, CA (USA) but I've also only seen three collections haha. > > The LSSM's main area was amazing (and most items are operational) but the > systems in their off-site storage area blew my mind... > > Dave the curator is an endless well of knowledge, too. I highly recommend a > visit. If you do, say Hello to some of the stuff that came from my collection the last time I had to move. :-) bill --===============6207957502637363018==-- From daryl.faulkner@heritagewerks.com Tue Oct 18 18:34:10 2022 From: Daryl Faulkner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FW: [EXTERNAL]Fwd: HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 16:55:32 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7245181596976851242==" --===============7245181596976851242== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, I'm Daryl and I'm with the Hewlett-Packard Company Archives. David Collins fo= rwarded your email to me in the event that the archives might be interested i= n acquiring this impressive collection that is listed below. I'm going to forward this to our archives team to have them give their input = on which of these instruments we would be most interested in and then get bac= k to you. Provided, that this inventory is still available. I look forward to staying in touch. Daryl Daryl Faulkner Account Director Heritage Werks, Inc. Specialists in Archival Services 503.501.9216 (cell) daryl.faulkner(a)heritagewerks.com HeritageWerks.com Legally privileged/confidential information may be contained in this message.= It is intended solely for the addressee(s); access to anyone else is unautho= rized. If this message has been sent to you in error, do not review, dissemin= ate, distribute or copy it. Please reply to the sender that you have received= the message in error, and then delete it. Thank you. From: David Collins Sent: Monday, September 19, 2022 10:09 PM To: Daryl Faulkner Subject: [EXTERNAL]Fwd: [cctalk] HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click= links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the conte= nt is safe. FYI in case you are after more HP kit! ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Tim Riker via cctalk > Date: Tue, 20 Sept 2022 at 11:22 Subject: [cctalk] HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake To: > Cc: Tim Riker > All, I'm not getting around to working on this hardware. Another potential move coming up. What's the interest level out there for HP 1000/2000 hardware? Computers: * HP-2116A 8kB - the original HP computer. There is only one other that I am aware of in existence. David Collins got theirs up and running. Mine still blows fuses on startup. * http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=3D95 * HP-2100A - untested * HP-2108 - working last I checked 64kB (I might keep this one) * HP-2112 - working last I checked 64kB Others: * HP-7901A disc drive - untested (2.5mB) * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply (5mB) * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply * HP-2748B paper tape reader - spins up, does not seem to pass data * CCC tape punch - untested * HP-2761A Optical Mark Reader - punch card reader. loading wheel turned to goo long ago. probably restorable * card slot expansion chassis. I forget the part number. * dual 3 1/2" drive in hpio chassis might someday work with these systems * non-hp 19" rack holding most equipment * lot's of peripheral cards including interfaces for disc drives, punch, tape, card, etc. Photos on Google Photos. My Gallery App is down at the moment. https://photos.app.goo.gl/ry648oCejfmjnuNf9 I'd guess it's about 1500 pounds of hardware. So, pickup in Salt Lake only. --===============7245181596976851242==-- From teoz@neo.rr.com Tue Oct 18 18:41:53 2022 From: Teo Zenios To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 14:41:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8165620380138951247==" --===============8165620380138951247== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't pay your taxes and it goes quick. -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 10:36 AM To: Ethan O'Toole ; William Donzelli via cctalk Cc: William Donzelli Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean. Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for people taking your land. -- Will On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:15 AM Ethan O'Toole wrote: > > > Own your land. > > Museum or individual. > > You never own your land. They can always take it. > > - Ethan > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============8165620380138951247==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Oct 18 19:07:14 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 12:06:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6636381307200981131==" --===============6636381307200981131== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and > greater user for the public good. Arthur Dent's home, and planet, were bulldozed to make way for bypasses. --===============6636381307200981131==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 18 19:31:28 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 15:31:13 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <043f3c52-2d56-de50-96bc-082a5ece7814@telegraphics.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1310946221274444337==" --===============1310946221274444337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was >> the T11. >> > > J11? KDF11? I think the point has been made. :-) C --===============1310946221274444337==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 18 19:36:38 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 15:36:21 -0400 Message-ID: <5ca47182-5094-e1e8-fb28-c49b10dc3f9f@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4434203311816882371==" --===============4434203311816882371== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Single package, multiple die. Same goes for F11. And the MV1. And the MVII. And the 8200, CVAX, Rigel/etc.... I think the NVAX was on a single chip.... --===============4434203311816882371==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Tue Oct 18 20:49:15 2022 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Think millenia [was Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012] Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 22:39:27 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221018171237.C15B981F66@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7090786632689389654==" --===============7090786632689389654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:12:16PM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 09:15 AM 10/18/2022, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > >>Own your land. > >>Museum or individual. > > > >You never own your land. They can always take it. >=20 > Far more probable than someone taking your property? Wanting to give it up. > Needing to give it up. Or your death, and then someone else wants and need= s=20 > to get rid of it. >=20 > A year ago today, someone made a great offer on my office building and I had > less than 30 days to move out 30 years and 4,500 square feet of crap. =20 > I managed to down-size into about 1,500 square feet. Some time ago I gave an advice to this group. Ok, it was half tongue in cheek, but the more I read this thread, the more it seems like the only viable way for classic hobbists. I.e. it looks not as stupid as depending on goodwill of some future people, benevolence of the rich etc. Basically, my advice was to make a friend for c-tech, either have a friend in government or a friend in some well established church. It can be taken further - make preservation of old tech into the constitution. Or, build a religion around it. This way, scraping functional item would become federal offence or even a sin. Repairing broken item and making it useful would become... well, I am not sure. Generally those long term institutions are good in castigating here and now, while promising good thing in a future (if you follow their rules), so I guess it should be something like this - those who get enough points (repair enough S100 cards) will be allowed to... dunno, you would have to fill in the gaps. Otherwise, all collections are subject to random screwups, evictions, vandalism, jokery (in my country, from time to time, one joker or another burns churches, old, wooden, centuries-old, for the reason known only to them - perhaps they think it is funny or are mentally fucked, so destruction is only going to be mitigated, postponed, but not stopped). If gubmints and churches smell too bad, I advice befriending scouts. You (c-tech hobby, c-computer collections) need a friend that is rooted for by the people. Not because it can give money, but because of some non-monetary achievement. A lot of people do various deeds to defend constitution or come to clean their parish, but AFAIK not for the money. Just MHO, as I am not quite a hobbist (just reading about old stuff from time to time). --=20 Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============7090786632689389654==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Tue Oct 18 21:44:02 2022 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:43:45 -0400 Message-ID: <4MsS6T1jzszfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3527042681401872317==" --===============3527042681401872317== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500 > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't > have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to > MOS. MITS, not MOS. Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800 using a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation (UUO) facility of the PDP-10. He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it when the 8080 came out. He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so th= at he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she interviewed h= im for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published). He spent several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior to her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups of t= he development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs. Rich --===============3527042681401872317==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 22:15:39 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 15:15:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4MsS6T1jzszfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7126541167195825290==" --===============7126541167195825290== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rich. As an aside, are there any updates as to the fate of the LCM collection? I'd heard sordid rumors about its dispersal but would appreciate definitive word from a reliable source (i.e. yourself) to the extent you're able to discuss it. Thanks. Sellam On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:43 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500 > > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > > > I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't > > have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane > to > > MOS. > > MITS, not MOS. > > Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800 > using > a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation > (UUO) > facility of the PDP-10. He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it > when > the 8080 came out. > > He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so > that > he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she > interviewed him > for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published). He > spent > several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior > to > her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups > of the > development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs. > > Rich > --===============7126541167195825290==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Oct 18 22:20:20 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Think millenia [was Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012] Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 15:19:50 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1665816707745177071==" --===============1665816707745177071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can actually advise on the formation of some sort of organization (a foundation or ministry is the best kind, but a private trust is also a good option) into which ownership of one's collection can go, with instructions for continuity of the collection (or dispersal) after one's demise. If anyone is interested, please contact me privately. I work on a donation basis through my law ministry. Sellam On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:49 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:12:16PM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 09:15 AM 10/18/2022, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > >>Own your land. > > >>Museum or individual. > > > > > >You never own your land. They can always take it. > > > > Far more probable than someone taking your property? Wanting to give it > up. > > Needing to give it up. Or your death, and then someone else wants and > needs > > to get rid of it. > > > > A year ago today, someone made a great offer on my office building and I > had > > less than 30 days to move out 30 years and 4,500 square feet of crap. > > I managed to down-size into about 1,500 square feet. > > Some time ago I gave an advice to this group. Ok, it was half tongue > in cheek, but the more I read this thread, the more it seems like the > only viable way for classic hobbists. I.e. it looks not as stupid as > depending on goodwill of some future people, benevolence of the rich > etc. > > Basically, my advice was to make a friend for c-tech, either have a > friend in government or a friend in some well established church. > > It can be taken further - make preservation of old tech into the > constitution. Or, build a religion around it. This way, scraping > functional item would become federal offence or even a sin. Repairing > broken item and making it useful would become... well, I am not > sure. Generally those long term institutions are good in castigating > here and now, while promising good thing in a future (if you follow > their rules), so I guess it should be something like this - those who > get enough points (repair enough S100 cards) will be allowed > to... dunno, you would have to fill in the gaps. > > Otherwise, all collections are subject to random screwups, evictions, > vandalism, jokery (in my country, from time to time, one joker or > another burns churches, old, wooden, centuries-old, for the reason > known only to them - perhaps they think it is funny or are mentally > fucked, so destruction is only going to be mitigated, postponed, but > not stopped). > > If gubmints and churches smell too bad, I advice befriending scouts. > > You (c-tech hobby, c-computer collections) need a friend that is > rooted for by the people. Not because it can give money, but because > of some non-monetary achievement. A lot of people do various deeds to > defend constitution or come to clean their parish, but AFAIK not for > the money. Just MHO, as I am not quite a hobbist (just reading about > old stuff from time to time). > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** > --===============1665816707745177071==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Oct 19 00:42:00 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:35:45 -0700 Message-ID: <93FA3B5E-E8B8-48C4-8A7D-2361CABCF333@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6109666526880648084==" --===============6109666526880648084== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 17, 2022, at 7:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > . . . and there is the point where it crosses over > from you owning the collection, > to the collection owning you. This is a very accurate statement. How many of us have grown to have a love/= hate relationship with our collections. My wife isn=E2=80=99t the one saying= it takes up to **** much room, I am. Zane --===============6109666526880648084==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Wed Oct 19 00:45:16 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:44:56 -0700 Message-ID: <00FD53A0-5318-470E-9D2C-F6AF6E87F999@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <9867d7a-fd33-f385-2154-3f6451ecf0f1@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0131243127803503858==" --===============0131243127803503858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Oct 18, 2022, at 7:42 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean. >> Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for >> people taking your land. >=20 > And for the younger crowd it's very expensive now. Not like the old days (a= ssuming you live near a job center.) >=20 > - Ethan This last weekend was the =E2=80=9CPortland Retro Gaming Expo=E2=80=9D, it wa= s something of an eye opener as to how prices have gone up. There were some = good deals, for example I was tempted by the two Commodore 128D=E2=80=99s and= the Atari Stacy one seller had, but as a whole, the prices leaned towards cr= azy. =20 Thankfully I bought most of my collection of classic computers in the late 90= =E2=80=99s. These days if I=E2=80=99m buying anything, it=E2=80=99s usually = something modern to extend an old system, or a part I need. I=E2=80=99ll als= o admit a certain amount of bewilderment on people getting excited to collect= something like a Pentium II. Zane --===============0131243127803503858==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Oct 19 02:53:58 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 21:53:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7981345078815679764==" --===============7981345078815679764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/18/22 09:18, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 09:45:30AM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more >> intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using >> computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones". >> > Saratov-2 seems to be PDP-8 "clone" > Wow, they even copied the DEC car handles of the flip-chip style! Jon --===============7981345078815679764==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 19 03:21:59 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 23:21:41 -0400 Message-ID: <6886d733-8ee0-0175-9ed6-afb75c1ce1a5@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0903546964704927049==" --===============0903546964704927049== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, they even copied the DEC car handles of the flip-chip style! Always interesting. You never want to clone so closely you wind up cloning unintended "features". Like let's say there was a floating point bug that could be triggered to cause a system crash if very unusual things happened. That would be embarrassing. C --===============0903546964704927049==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 03:44:44 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 22:44:17 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4295151782924094794==" --===============4295151782924094794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a thought once that the ultimate computer museum would be in orbit. Actually, I think there was some Star Trek episode along those lines (not the one where Data was captured to be put into a museum, but something similar). I like how having the old hardware gives physical "witness" and "evidence" that all the old stories are true - people did invent and create these things, they didn't just appear from aliens. I get sentimental thinking how we're the "last generation" to know the world before computers. I understand computers have technically "run the world" maybe since the 1950s (in terms of big business accounting and logistics, air traffic control, world banking, the tech that got us to the moon, and long distance calls -- my father says he remembers talking to a switchboard operator and asking to be connected to his grandmother by first name, i.e. "Hi Susan, can you connect me to Martha Bell?", and the operator recognized his voice and made the connection). But you know what I mean -- a world with no smartphone, no spycams at every corner, no logins, paying with cash, and NOT having 24/7 international news. Not saying things were better, just that it's a transition in humanity and we are "digital pioneers." What if the next "country" isn't physical, but is a whole virtual space? I think the day is coming on that -- if we can't move out into space, folks might "move" into the meta-virtual space perhaps. And why can't CyberSpace be a new "continent" or multiple ones? Humans shouldn't live like chickens in a henhouse (well, in my opinion) -- but on the other hand, maybe that's a necessary step to (eventually) get the critical-mass of engineering/theoretical physicists-type stuff in virtual space that does lead to more advanced techniques to get into space? And if ISP servers are in orbit, what jurisdiction do physical governments now have? Not saying any of that is a Good-Thing - however, in general, we can't stop "progress." I see these online quantum computers that we can rent time on now -- and it's like the 1950s/1960s all over again, when they rented time on mainframes. We'll see where it leads! "smaller" collections - those are important, we need backup and redundancy for all the usual reasons. Fires and weather calamity still happen. But as the cost of real estate and land increases, that also increases the tax burden -- sadly, eventually we can't reserve comfortable space for old equipment. If computer museums become "Digital Temples" and we start the Order of Bit Twiddlers, could we then claim a religious exemption for tax purposes? On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:46 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and > > greater user for the public good. > > Those would be the "significant barriers to cross". > > -- > Will > --===============4295151782924094794==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 19 03:51:30 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 23:51:13 -0400 Message-ID: <8e22794d-4f06-be4a-d9d9-527d4acf18c5@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0637007461462273474==" --===============0637007461462273474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I like how having the old hardware gives physical "witness" and "evidence" > that all the old stories are true - people did invent and create these > things, they didn't just appear from aliens. Indeed. I am teaching a security class on TCP/IP and I recently got my AT&T 7300 PC up and running with its Ethernet card and Wollogong TCP stack. Granted the system doesn't have resolver/DNS libraries but even though it is almost 40 years old it still can connect to the most modern PC system, transfer data, and work using the same TCP/IP protocol. I plan to show it to my students (along with how insanely easy it is to hack). But still, tat's stability over time. CZ --===============0637007461462273474==-- From toby@telegraphics.net Wed Oct 19 05:11:24 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 15:43:52 -0400 Message-ID: <3dc74fd9-440e-53d0-1f91-9d445a4a6610@telegraphics.net> In-Reply-To: <5ca47182-5094-e1e8-fb28-c49b10dc3f9f@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8296336151179297504==" --===============8296336151179297504== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2022-10-18 3:36 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Single package, multiple die.  Same goes for F11. > > And the MV1. And the MVII. And the 8200, CVAX, Rigel/etc.... > > I think the NVAX was on a single chip.... > > Ah, I didn't know there were so many multi-dies in the range! I wonder if anyone is interested in taking some high quality X-rays. If it logistically makes sense I could lend boards for this... --Toby --===============8296336151179297504==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 19 13:16:48 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 09:16:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8e22794d-4f06-be4a-d9d9-527d4acf18c5@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3134858010529082557==" --===============3134858010529082557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 18, 2022, at 11:51 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I like how having the old hardware gives physical "witness" and "evidence" >> that all the old stories are true - people did invent and create these >> things, they didn't just appear from aliens. >=20 > Indeed. I am teaching a security class on TCP/IP and I recently got my AT&T= 7300 PC up and running with its Ethernet card and Wollogong TCP stack. Another story of using old technology: a couple of years ago I wrote an artic= le about the invention of FM radio, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong = in the USA in the late 1920s). I wanted to simulate the circuit used, and fo= und the easy way to do that was with complex number arithmetic. So I wrote a simulation of the circuit in question in ALGOL 60, running in a = SIMH emulator. In other words, simulating a 100 year old invention using 50 = year old computer technology. Why do it that way? Why not? Fun. paul --===============3134858010529082557==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Wed Oct 19 14:00:23 2022 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 15:50:45 +0200 Message-ID: <20221019135044.GA2594826@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6650022013217648851==" --===============6650022013217648851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:36:58AM -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean. > > Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for > people taking your land. Owe the local government a few bucks in unpaid tax? They steal your house (well, technically not - they put a lien on it and then foreclose). Lowest amount I've read about was around $9 in unpaid taxes resulted in a 25k $ house being grabbed. Was apparently later ruled as "nope, can't do that" for this case, but still, not a fun time. Florida seems to be particularly creative, too: pay your contractor, contractor doesn't pay their supplier, supplier puts lien on _your_ house for the money owed. Want to keep your house? Better pay again and then try to extract that money from the contractor later by way of the courts. And then there is the legal fun bag of the forfeiture related laws. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============6650022013217648851==-- From sxpert@sxpert.org Wed Oct 19 14:15:25 2022 From: =?utf-8?q?Rapha=C3=ABl?= Jacquot To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:06:37 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221019135044.GA2594826@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5606048977677624151==" --===============5606048977677624151== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Le 19/10/2022 à 15:50, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk a écrit : > Florida seems to be particularly creative, too: pay your contractor, > contractor doesn't pay their supplier, supplier puts lien on _your_ > house for the money owed. Want to keep your house? Better pay again > and then try to extract that money from the contractor later by > way of the courts. this whole paragraph sounds utterly illegal... --===============5606048977677624151==-- From wdonzelli@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 14:19:32 2022 From: William Donzelli To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 10:19:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20221019135044.GA2594826@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3138428047971465747==" --===============3138428047971465747== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Owe the local government a few bucks in unpaid tax? They steal your > house (well, technically not - they put a lien on it and then foreclose). Yes, if you do not pay you taxes (or rent) - you SHOULD lose your land after some amount of time. What I am talking about is Eminent Domain (in the US). The government taking your land for the greater good. People think this is easy for corporations to do, but is not. It takes a lot of time and money, plus tends to be political damaging for the politicians involved. If it was easy, every scumbag land developer would be doing it. -- Will --===============3138428047971465747==-- From fritzm@fritzm.org Wed Oct 19 15:14:19 2022 From: Fritz Mueller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 08:14:02 -0700 Message-ID: <70CB1563-9088-4F3C-93FF-B0AA68D82D8E@fritzm.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1359560161290742440==" --===============1359560161290742440== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM radio= , in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late 1920s). That sounds interesting, Paul =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m only familiar with the u= sual USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read online an= ywhere? =E2=80=94FritzM. --===============1359560161290742440==-- From stuff@riddermarkfarm.ca Wed Oct 19 16:32:27 2022 From: Stuff Received To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 12:32:08 -0400 Message-ID: <0abf1330-eeb6-1b8d-b3b0-12282005030d@riddermarkfarm.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5096103721286833616==" --===============5096103721286833616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2022-10-19 10:06, Raphaël Jacquot via cctalk wrote: > > Le 19/10/2022 à 15:50, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk a écrit : > >> Florida seems to be particularly creative, too: pay your contractor, >> contractor doesn't pay their supplier, supplier puts lien on _your_ >> house for the money owed. Want to keep your house? Better pay again >> and then try to extract that money from the contractor later by >> way of the courts. > > this whole paragraph sounds utterly illegal... No -- perfectly legal in many jurisdictions in both the US and Canada.  In fact, you need not even be told of the lien. Reputable contractors will give you (or you should demand) a release from liens. N. --===============5096103721286833616==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 19 17:18:30 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:17:48 -0400 Message-ID: <63F5374C-4843-4677-AB23-B584F165281B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <70CB1563-9088-4F3C-93FF-B0AA68D82D8E@fritzm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0093617135418250479==" --===============0093617135418250479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 19, 2022, at 11:14 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM radi= o, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late 1920s). >=20 > That sounds interesting, Paul =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m only familiar with the= usual USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read online = anywhere? >=20 > =E2=80=94FritzM. It was published in the April 2020 issue of Electron, the Dutch amateur radio= magazine. But that isn't available on line. I realized I could just make the original English version of the article avai= lable. I realized the simulation output graphic I mentioned wasn't in there = so I added it. You can find it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vro6xe9oy0ybu5a/FM%20100%20years.pdf?dl=3D0 paul --===============0093617135418250479==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 19 17:51:23 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 10:51:05 -0700 Message-ID: <00f101d8e3e3$5d879e80$1896db80$@net> In-Reply-To: <20221019135044.GA2594826@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7327867347815741358==" --===============7327867347815741358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Florida seems to be particularly creative, too: pay your contractor, > contractor doesn't pay their supplier, supplier puts lien on _your_ > house for the money owed. Want to keep your house? Better pay again > and then try to extract that money from the contractor later by > way of the courts. Lien laws are total BS and written by special interest groups. They are also not unique to any one state. They exist in all states. Although some places are slightly better. In CA a lien can't be perfected unless you go to "big court" which costs money and lawyers. So unless you stiffed someone of out of mucho bucks it usually never happens. -Ali --===============7327867347815741358==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Wed Oct 19 18:18:18 2022 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 11:09:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3931490E-D486-4435-BA26-CE7F2B6DD528@snowmoose.com> In-Reply-To: <70CB1563-9088-4F3C-93FF-B0AA68D82D8E@fritzm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2583106833223567507==" --===============2583106833223567507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 19, 2022, at 08:14, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM radi= o, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late 1920s). >=20 > That sounds interesting, Paul =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m only familiar with the= usual USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read online = anywhere? >=20 > =E2=80=94FritzM. I=E2=80=99d be interested in the article as well. There are reasons for the story of FM radio to be US- and Armstrong-centric, = even if someone or some institution in Europe did it first. --===============2583106833223567507==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 19 18:30:11 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 14:29:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3BDA392A-9D1A-4C1A-A24A-F625B8AB6C1B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <3931490E-D486-4435-BA26-CE7F2B6DD528@snowmoose.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7874954878873369158==" --===============7874954878873369158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:09 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 19, 2022, at 08:14, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM rad= io, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late 1920s). >>=20 >> That sounds interesting, Paul =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m only familiar with th= e usual USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read online= anywhere? >>=20 >> =E2=80=94FritzM. >=20 > I=E2=80=99d be interested in the article as well. >=20 > There are reasons for the story of FM radio to be US- and Armstrong-centric= , even if someone or some institution in Europe did it first. Yes, but suppression of the story, which is what I experienced when I tried t= o update Wikipedia, is not the right answer. The correct answer is to recognize that (a) Armstrong was NOT first with FM t= ransmission, (b) Armstrong was first with FM-specific receivers (discriminato= r), and (c) the technology direction started by Armstrong is the one that got= traction and evolved into what we have now. As I mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, Idzerda's FM transmit= ter is like Leif Eriksson's discovery of America -- he did it first, but it d= idn't lead to anything. Still, he made a living off a commercial broadcast v= enture using his technology for 5 years or so, until the creation of the BBC = made his business uncompetitive. paul --===============7874954878873369158==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Oct 19 19:11:18 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FM/Armstrong was: [ Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 12:10:54 -0700 Message-ID: <85cfabb8-faf2-0026-d519-9598f0092758@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <3BDA392A-9D1A-4C1A-A24A-F625B8AB6C1B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1967175006996695566==" --===============1967175006996695566== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Indeed, FM was one of the undesired side effects of AM unless you had a well-isolated or crystal-controlled frequency source for your transmitter. As far as detection goes, a simple AM "slope detector" sufficed in most cases for getting intelligible audio. --Chuck --===============1967175006996695566==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 19:22:05 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 12:21:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3BDA392A-9D1A-4C1A-A24A-F625B8AB6C1B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8442529956937317679==" --===============8442529956937317679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, that's because the "WIKI" in "Wikipedia" stands for "We Impose Knowledge Interpretation". Sadly, the promise of the internet has been utterly destroyed by megalomaniacs, zealots, and abject morons. It's up to people like us to preserve history as it actually happened, and not as the would-be masters would have us believe. This is why we do what we do. Sellam On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:29 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:09 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Oct 19, 2022, at 08:14, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>  > >>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM > radio, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late > 1920s). > >> > >> That sounds interesting, Paul — I’m only familiar with the usual > USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read online > anywhere? > >> > >> —FritzM. > > > > I’d be interested in the article as well. > > > > There are reasons for the story of FM radio to be US- and > Armstrong-centric, even if someone or some institution in Europe did it > first. > > Yes, but suppression of the story, which is what I experienced when I > tried to update Wikipedia, is not the right answer. > > The correct answer is to recognize that (a) Armstrong was NOT first with > FM transmission, (b) Armstrong was first with FM-specific receivers > (discriminator), and (c) the technology direction started by Armstrong is > the one that got traction and evolved into what we have now. > > As I mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, Idzerda's FM > transmitter is like Leif Eriksson's discovery of America -- he did it > first, but it didn't lead to anything. Still, he made a living off a > commercial broadcast venture using his technology for 5 years or so, until > the creation of the BBC made his business uncompetitive. > > paul > > --===============8442529956937317679==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 19:34:19 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 15:34:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7625287114256103851==" --===============7625287114256103851== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hear! hear!  When I was teaching college I told my students I would cross out any references to wikipedia in a paper. I saw on Wikipedia that there is no legal definition of a pint of beer in Canada. I got a government official to give me the legal definition and published it on wikipedia, quoting the official source. A few weeks later, it had been changed back to 'there is no legal definition of a pint of beer in Canada!'  Then I found my account blocked, but they still wanted me to donate every year! (By the way it is 568.26 ml, and 5% a.b.v.) Come to Canada for the beer, stay because your car won't start! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-19 15:21, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Well, that's because the "WIKI" in "Wikipedia" stands for "We Impose > Knowledge Interpretation". > > Sadly, the promise of the internet has been utterly destroyed by > megalomaniacs, zealots, and abject morons. It's up to people like us to > preserve history as it actually happened, and not as the would-be masters > would have us believe. > > This is why we do what we do. > > Sellam > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:29 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:09 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 08:14, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>  >>>>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>> ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM >> radio, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late >> 1920s). >>>> That sounds interesting, Paul — I’m only familiar with the usual >> USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read online >> anywhere? >>>> —FritzM. >>> I’d be interested in the article as well. >>> >>> There are reasons for the story of FM radio to be US- and >> Armstrong-centric, even if someone or some institution in Europe did it >> first. >> >> Yes, but suppression of the story, which is what I experienced when I >> tried to update Wikipedia, is not the right answer. >> >> The correct answer is to recognize that (a) Armstrong was NOT first with >> FM transmission, (b) Armstrong was first with FM-specific receivers >> (discriminator), and (c) the technology direction started by Armstrong is >> the one that got traction and evolved into what we have now. >> >> As I mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, Idzerda's FM >> transmitter is like Leif Eriksson's discovery of America -- he did it >> first, but it didn't lead to anything. Still, he made a living off a >> commercial broadcast venture using his technology for 5 years or so, until >> the creation of the BBC made his business uncompetitive. >> >> paul >> >> --===============7625287114256103851==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Oct 19 20:25:14 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: FM/Armstrong was: [ Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:24:54 -0400 Message-ID: <50CDA75A-BFC3-4620-8C43-FE9DA3F6FDD0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <85cfabb8-faf2-0026-d519-9598f0092758@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6917719994991815588==" --===============6917719994991815588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 19, 2022, at 3:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Indeed, FM was one of the undesired side effects of AM unless you had a > well-isolated or crystal-controlled frequency source for your transmitter. I suppose so, but Idzerda's transmitter produces FM with essentially constant= amplitude. It's a bit surprising given that it uses a carbon microphone as = an element in the tuned circuit, but that's what the oscilloscope shows. And= it works very nicely. > As far as detection goes, a simple AM "slope detector" sufficed in most > cases for getting intelligible audio. True, and that's how his listeners heard his broadcasts, since the discrimina= tor had not yet been invented. That also means, of course, that the "capture= effect" benefit of FM was not available to him, since you need limiters for = that. paul --===============6917719994991815588==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:29:16 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:28:48 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2276277400744083928==" --===============2276277400744083928== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hear hear! On Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 3:21 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Well, that's because the "WIKI" in "Wikipedia" stands for "We Impose > Knowledge Interpretation". > > Sadly, the promise of the internet has been utterly destroyed by > megalomaniacs, zealots, and abject morons. It's up to people like us to > preserve history as it actually happened, and not as the would-be masters > would have us believe. > > This is why we do what we do. > > Sellam > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:29 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:09 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Oct 19, 2022, at 08:14, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> > > >>  > > >>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >>> ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM > > radio, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late > > 1920s). > > >> > > >> That sounds interesting, Paul — I’m only familiar with the usual > > USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read online > > anywhere? > > >> > > >> —FritzM. > > > > > > I’d be interested in the article as well. > > > > > > There are reasons for the story of FM radio to be US- and > > Armstrong-centric, even if someone or some institution in Europe did it > > first. > > > > Yes, but suppression of the story, which is what I experienced when I > > tried to update Wikipedia, is not the right answer. > > > > The correct answer is to recognize that (a) Armstrong was NOT first with > > FM transmission, (b) Armstrong was first with FM-specific receivers > > (discriminator), and (c) the technology direction started by Armstrong is > > the one that got traction and evolved into what we have now. > > > > As I mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, Idzerda's FM > > transmitter is like Leif Eriksson's discovery of America -- he did it > > first, but it didn't lead to anything. Still, he made a living off a > > commercial broadcast venture using his technology for 5 years or so, > until > > the creation of the BBC made his business uncompetitive. > > > > paul > > > > > --===============2276277400744083928==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 21:49:34 2022 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Bubble Memory Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 17:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4002024693787413607==" --===============4002024693787413607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 =] -- Anders Nelson --===============4002024693787413607==-- From captainkirk359@gmail.com Wed Oct 19 22:58:21 2022 From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:57:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2186959277659492413==" --===============2186959277659492413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for the off-topic. On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 at 15:34, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > I got a government official to give me the legal definition and > published it on wikipedia, quoting the official source. > Was it Measurement Canada's complaint form? Because they - that is, Measurement Canada - has now published a helpful poster on the definition of what units of volume draft beer may be sold by: For the curious it's in the link above. Best regards, Christian --===============2186959277659492413==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Thu Oct 20 00:26:59 2022 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 17:26:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3BDA392A-9D1A-4C1A-A24A-F625B8AB6C1B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6760971959662615794==" --===============6760971959662615794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 19, 2022, at 11:29, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:09 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 08:14, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> ...a couple of years ago I wrote an article about the invention of FM ra= dio, in Holland in 1919 (no, not by Armstrong in the USA in the late 1920s). >>>=20 >>> That sounds interesting, Paul =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m only familiar with t= he usual USA-centric Armstrong lore. Is your article available to read onlin= e anywhere? >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=94FritzM. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99d be interested in the article as well. >>=20 >> There are reasons for the story of FM radio to be US- and Armstrong-centri= c, even if someone or some institution in Europe did it first. >=20 > Yes, but suppression of the story, which is what I experienced when I tried= to update Wikipedia, is not the right answer. Is there something about any of this in the talk page for FM? I have enough W= ikipedia edits that I get to vote and am willing to add something to the talk= page. But this goes beyond Wikipedia. I have plenty of dead tree references that do= n=E2=80=99t mention anything before Armstrong. alan=20 --===============6760971959662615794==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Thu Oct 20 16:13:06 2022 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 12:12:20 -0400 Message-ID: <7623887d-f0c8-971c-2e4c-083b9b51a511@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3701381437554055720==" --===============3701381437554055720== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/19/2022 5:49 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson This reminded me that I have a qbus Bubble Tek (or something) board in my collection.  It emulates an RX01 device, however it uses the Intel 7110 bubble memory and contains 1M bit of data. That is 128 KB! Formatted you get a 128KB RX01, and you thought the 256KB RX01 was a small space to work in. Doug --===============3701381437554055720==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 00:56:23 2022 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:55:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7623887d-f0c8-971c-2e4c-083b9b51a511@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2649169765469117352==" --===============2649169765469117352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are they supposed to look like that or are those worn/scuffed from age (or just blurry picture)? On Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:13 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/19/2022 5:49 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 > --===============2649169765469117352==-- From doug@doughq.com Fri Oct 21 01:24:52 2022 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 12:15:02 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7623887d-f0c8-971c-2e4c-083b9b51a511@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1463432259291921889==" --===============1463432259291921889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sigh... Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas shipping is. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 03:12, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/19/2022 5:49 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 > > > > =] > > -- > > Anders Nelson > > This reminded me that I have a qbus Bubble Tek (or something) board in > my collection. It emulates an RX01 device, however it uses the Intel > 7110 bubble memory and contains 1M bit of data. That is 128 KB! > > Formatted you get a 128KB RX01, and you thought the 256KB RX01 was a > small space to work in. > > Doug > > > --===============1463432259291921889==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 01:39:59 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:39:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9001458044070416484==" --===============9001458044070416484== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you want I can buy them for you and ship them to you. Since shipping is free it'll only cost you for the overseas shipping, and I can get good rates through PirateShip. If you're interested, e-mail me off-list and we'll work out the details. Sellam On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 6:24 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sigh... > > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > shipping is. > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug(a)doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > > > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 03:12, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 10/19/2022 5:49 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > > On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 > > > > > > =] > > > -- > > > Anders Nelson > > > > This reminded me that I have a qbus Bubble Tek (or something) board in > > my collection. It emulates an RX01 device, however it uses the Intel > > 7110 bubble memory and contains 1M bit of data. That is 128 KB! > > > > Formatted you get a 128KB RX01, and you thought the 256KB RX01 was a > > small space to work in. > > > > Doug > > > > > > > --===============9001458044070416484==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Fri Oct 21 03:23:43 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 03:23:22 +0000 Message-ID: <109149405.877945.1666322602971@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9141166699744937408==" --===============9141166699744937408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What's the story of this pirate shipping on kind of an interesting name but I= don't know what what kind of reputation do they have? thanks Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 6:39 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: If you want I can buy them for you and ship them to you.=C2= =A0 Since shipping is free it'll only cost you for the overseas shipping, and I can get good rates through PirateShip. If you're interested, e-mail me off-list and we'll work out the details. Sellam On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 6:24 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Sigh... > > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > shipping is. > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug(a)doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > > > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 03:12, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 10/19/2022 5:49 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > > On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 > > > > > > =3D] > > > -- > > > Anders Nelson > > > > This reminded me that I have a qbus Bubble Tek (or something) board in > > my collection.=C2=A0 It emulates an RX01 device, however it uses the Intel > > 7110 bubble memory and contains 1M bit of data. That is 128 KB! > > > > Formatted you get a 128KB RX01, and you thought the 256KB RX01 was a > > small space to work in. > > > > Doug > > > > > > > =20 --===============9141166699744937408==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 03:37:35 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 20:37:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <109149405.877945.1666322602971@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1829590146515014348==" --===============1829590146515014348== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pirate Ship (https://pirateship.com/) is a shipping service that offers discount rates through UPS and the USPS. I've been using it for several months now and it is a fantastic service. The website interface is easy and straightforward, the rates are competitive with eBay (if you are familiar with eBay shipping rates), and the customer service is really good. For anyone that does any kind of shipping, I highly recommend it. Opening an account is free. Sellam On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 8:23 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > What's the story of this pirate shipping on kind of an interesting name > but I don't know what what kind of reputation do they have? thanks Ed# > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 6:39 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk< > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: If you want I can buy them for you and > ship them to you. Since shipping is > free it'll only cost you for the overseas shipping, and I can get > good rates through PirateShip. > > If you're interested, e-mail me off-list and we'll work out the details. > > Sellam > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 6:24 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Sigh... > > > > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > > shipping is. > > > > Kindest regards, > > > > Doug Jackson > > > > em: doug(a)doughq.com > > ph: 0414 986878 > > > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 03:12, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > On 10/19/2022 5:49 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > > > On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 > > > > > > > > =] > > > > -- > > > > Anders Nelson > > > > > > This reminded me that I have a qbus Bubble Tek (or something) board in > > > my collection. It emulates an RX01 device, however it uses the Intel > > > 7110 bubble memory and contains 1M bit of data. That is 128 KB! > > > > > > Formatted you get a 128KB RX01, and you thought the 256KB RX01 was a > > > small space to work in. > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============1829590146515014348==-- From george.rachor@gmail.com Fri Oct 21 05:29:44 2022 From: George Rachor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:29:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3745576481288876324==" --===============3745576481288876324== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually Apple ][ Bubble memory=E2=80=A6.. I remember a bubble memory card being advertise for the Apple ][ but never sa= w one. Were they ever made? George Rachor > On Oct 20, 2022, at 5:55 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Are they supposed to look like that or are those worn/scuffed from age (or > just blurry picture)? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:13 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> On 10/19/2022 5:49 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >>> On eBay, 10pcs for $75: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394216367144 >>=20 --===============3745576481288876324==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Fri Oct 21 09:55:47 2022 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 11:55:26 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4795450552858945596==" --===============4795450552858945596== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 12:15:02PM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: [...] > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > shipping is. As far as I can tell, the price to ship anything overseas from the USA is twice the value of the item, plus fifty bucks, plus ten bucks per ounce. Whether USPS actually charge this much or it's just sellers trying it on, I neither know nor care. So I don't bother even looking at American sellers any more. --===============4795450552858945596==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:21:48 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:21:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4556390923813676333==" --===============4556390923813676333== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/21/22 05:55, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 12:15:02PM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas >> shipping is. > > As far as I can tell, the price to ship anything overseas from the USA is > twice the value of the item, plus fifty bucks, plus ten bucks per ounce. > Whether USPS actually charge this much or it's just sellers trying it on, I > neither know nor care. > > So I don't bother even looking at American sellers any more. > I don't know what it is like currently but the last time I looked at it it was ridiculous. I bought an item thru eBay.uk. 2 cute little ceramic animals that you put water in and hang on a radiator for humidity. Cost about $20 and free shipping. Postage on the package when it arrived was less than $5. One was broken. They agreed to replace it if I returned the broken one. UPS was the cheapest I could find but they wanted over $60 to ship to England. Needless to say, It was cheaper to just buy another one. I used to buy parts for a British car I owned from Rimmer Brothers in England. I never understood why they were cheaper (in cost and shipping) than any of the American suppliers. I would never consider shipping anything to Europe any more. bill --===============4556390923813676333==-- From doc@vaxen.net Fri Oct 21 19:51:25 2022 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 14:50:49 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1734990834655977943==" --===============1734990834655977943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/20/22 20:15, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Sigh... > > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > shipping is. Oh, we understand, we really do. We also get really tired of strangers asking us to lie, on paper, to foreign government agencies. We understand why that's "necessary". We understand that customs duties in most other countries are insane. We understand that the chances of getting caught twiddling our declaration is minimal, and the odds of prosecution are even less. NONE of that makes taking that risk tenable for a person who hasn't earned my trust. My main, issue, though, is the response from prospective recipients when I say I won't falsify customs forms. It's usually something like "Don't be such a wimp." That's the behavior that makes me REALLY want not to ship overseas. Doc --===============1734990834655977943==-- From doug@doughq.com Sat Oct 22 01:00:24 2022 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 11:59:51 +1100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7457742497307695583==" --===============7457742497307695583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is disappointing that you have encountered people like that. My most recent purchase was a couple of potentiometers for a Kenwood TS440 radio - made from true Unobtanium. from memory, I paid $100 USD for the auction and $70 USD for the shipping. They shipped through the Ebay global shipping system which is a rip off, but the people who filled in the forms were the global shipping people. The sellers experience was that they simply sent the package to an address in the states. My experience was that I got the item I was happy to pay for. I didn't complain about the shipping, because some people understand that sending stuff costs money.. The alternative that I use is a US on-shipping firm MyUSA.com, but I try not to use them anymore, as they had a meltdown because they thought I was trying to get them to onship an ITAR controlled item (A satellite antenna). They couldn't read the government's own doco, where part number xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-01 was ITAR, while xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-02 was not ITAR controlled. In that case, I got them to ship it back to the seller, who onshipped it (again at my expense) to a friend, who shipped it for me. My comment was simply based on my experience, as a purchaser who is quite happy to pay through the nose, because I understand that a plane flight to the States costs much more than anybodies shipping. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Sat, 22 Oct 2022 at 06:51, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > On 10/20/22 20:15, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > Sigh... > > > > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > > shipping is. > > > Oh, we understand, we really do. We also get really tired of strangers > asking us to lie, on paper, to foreign government agencies. > > We understand why that's "necessary". We understand that customs duties > in most other countries are insane. We understand that the chances of > getting caught twiddling our declaration is minimal, and the odds of > prosecution are even less. > > NONE of that makes taking that risk tenable for a person who hasn't > earned my trust. > > My main, issue, though, is the response from prospective recipients when > I say I won't falsify customs forms. It's usually something like "Don't > be such a wimp." > > That's the behavior that makes me REALLY want not to ship overseas. > > > Doc > --===============7457742497307695583==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Oct 22 01:50:00 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 20:44:41 -0500 Message-ID: <45c0b8ae-710d-8cfd-26fd-7ae867ba874a@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5137298574803826563==" --===============5137298574803826563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/21/2022 4:55 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 12:15:02PM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas >> shipping is. > As far as I can tell, the price to ship anything overseas from the USA is > twice the value of the item, plus fifty bucks, plus ten bucks per ounce. > Whether USPS actually charge this much or it's just sellers trying it on, I > neither know nor care. > > So I don't bother even looking at American sellers any more. > I ship all the time all over the world, and overseas shipping is a bit pricey, but I don't think it's quite that bad.  I think that's an eBay thing. I don't use PirateShip (though I am sure they are fine), as I have a business shipping manager I use, that gets me preferred rates like PirateShip. If you find something you'd like but the seller doesn't do international, feel free to reach out.  I'm not looking to make a business of reshipping, but I started this business to help folks enjoy their classic computing hobby, so I'm happy to help. As another posting noted, though, requests to modify customs forms is a problem.  The most vocal concerns I've heard are folks who buy outside the US, have t pay customs, and then complain to me that I should have shown the price of the item including customs and VAT and such costs. I agree it'd be nice, but it's untenable at times to pre-figure those fees. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com --===============5137298574803826563==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Oct 22 02:47:22 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 10:46:54 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <45c0b8ae-710d-8cfd-26fd-7ae867ba874a@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1122819233583213477==" --===============1122819233583213477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be better to stay on topic and avoid the hostile rhetoric of some of the posts. Thanks Tom On Sat, 22 Oct 2022, 9:49 am Jim Brain via cctalk, wrote: > On 10/21/2022 4:55 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 12:15:02PM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > [...] > >> Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > >> shipping is. > > As far as I can tell, the price to ship anything overseas from the USA is > > twice the value of the item, plus fifty bucks, plus ten bucks per ounce. > > Whether USPS actually charge this much or it's just sellers trying it > on, I > > neither know nor care. > > > > So I don't bother even looking at American sellers any more. > > > I ship all the time all over the world, and overseas shipping is a bit > pricey, but I don't think it's quite that bad. I think that's an eBay > thing. > > I don't use PirateShip (though I am sure they are fine), as I have a > business shipping manager I use, that gets me preferred rates like > PirateShip. > > If you find something you'd like but the seller doesn't do > international, feel free to reach out. I'm not looking to make a > business of reshipping, but I started this business to help folks enjoy > their classic computing hobby, so I'm happy to help. > > As another posting noted, though, requests to modify customs forms is a > problem. The most vocal concerns I've heard are folks who buy outside > the US, have t pay customs, and then complain to me that I should have > shown the price of the item including customs and VAT and such costs. I > agree it'd be nice, but it's untenable at times to pre-figure those fees. > > Jim > > -- > > Jim Brain > brain(a)jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > --===============1122819233583213477==-- From brain@jbrain.com Sat Oct 22 04:39:19 2022 From: Jim Brain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 23:39:00 -0500 Message-ID: <0ec93cc6-d6a0-e9ec-10f8-98f0ba93675d@jbrain.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6243763612492667733==" --===============6243763612492667733== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/21/2022 9:46 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > It would be better to stay on topic and avoid the hostile rhetoric of some > of the posts. Um, I am.  There were concerns about international shipping of this eBay item, followed by some info on eBay international shipping, so I was offering to help in general if folks need it, and noting that not everyone requires so much to ship. Jim --===============6243763612492667733==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sat Oct 22 05:23:08 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 13:22:36 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0ec93cc6-d6a0-e9ec-10f8-98f0ba93675d@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1772088951665108926==" --===============1772088951665108926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was not referring to you Jim. Your message was helpful unlike some of the others. On Sat, 22 Oct 2022, 12:39 pm Jim Brain via cctalk, wrote: > On 10/21/2022 9:46 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > It would be better to stay on topic and avoid the hostile rhetoric of > some > > of the posts. > > Um, I am. There were concerns about international shipping of this eBay > item, followed by some info on eBay international shipping, so I was > offering to help in general if folks need it, and noting that not > everyone requires so much to ship. > > Jim > > --===============1772088951665108926==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sun Oct 23 13:30:30 2022 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:17:22 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <45c0b8ae-710d-8cfd-26fd-7ae867ba874a@jbrain.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8062953402796746937==" --===============8062953402796746937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 08:44:41PM -0500, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 10/21/2022 4:55 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 12:15:02PM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > [...] > > > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > > > shipping is. > > As far as I can tell, the price to ship anything overseas from the USA is > > twice the value of the item, plus fifty bucks, plus ten bucks per ounce. > > Whether USPS actually charge this much or it's just sellers trying it on,= I > > neither know nor care. > >=20 > > So I don't bother even looking at American sellers any more. > >=20 > I ship all the time all over the world, and overseas shipping is a bit > pricey, but I don't think it's quite that bad.=C2=A0 I think that's an eBay > thing. >=20 > As another posting noted, though, requests to modify customs forms is a > problem. The most vocal concerns I've heard are folks who buy outside the > US, have t pay customs, and then complain to me that I should have shown the > price of the item including customs and VAT and such costs. I agree it'd be > nice, but it's untenable at times to pre-figure those fees. That IMHO a bit unreasonable to expect, given that every country has different rules and rates when it comes to applying VAT and customs fee to imported goods. A note along the lines "For international shipping, VAT and customs fees on import may apply" should frankly be sufficient. Kind regards, Alex. --=20 "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============8062953402796746937==-- From als@thangorodrim.ch Sun Oct 23 13:30:44 2022 From: Alexander Schreiber To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:25:09 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5924771359530301889==" --===============5924771359530301889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 02:50:49PM -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > On 10/20/22 20:15, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > Sigh... > > > > Yet another American seler who doesn't understand how simple overseas > > shipping is. > > > Oh, we understand, we really do. We also get really tired of strangers > asking us to lie, on paper, to foreign government agencies. As a foreigner myself: please don't do that. Fill in the forms correctly and be done with it. I've seen this a lot with chinese sellers - utterly unasked for, mind you. Item declared as something _completely_ different, with a declared price usually in 1..5 USD rangem, even if I paid USD 100+ for it. The one case where the declared item type came closes to the actual item was a laser pointer that was declared as a flashlight. > We understand why that's "necessary". We understand that customs duties in > most other countries are insane. We understand that the chances of getting > caught twiddling our declaration is minimal, and the odds of prosecution are > even less. Still not worth it. > NONE of that makes taking that risk tenable for a person who hasn't earned > my trust. Agreed. > My main, issue, though, is the response from prospective recipients when I > say I won't falsify customs forms. It's usually something like "Don't be > such a wimp." "Have you tried not being a criminal?" would be an appropriate response. > That's the behavior that makes me REALLY want not to ship overseas. Sorry for that trouble, not all are like that. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison --===============5924771359530301889==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 15:44:41 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 09:44:23 -0600 Message-ID: <3f03b836-501b-b63b-1b0e-d74c8178faca@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3277465929768645298==" --===============3277465929768645298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-10-23 7:25 a.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > As a foreigner myself: please don't do that. Fill in the forms > correctly and be done with it. > > I've seen this a lot with chinese sellers - utterly unasked for, mind you. > Item declared as something _completely_ different, with a declared price > usually in 1..5 USD rangem, even if I paid USD 100+ for it. The one > case where the declared item type came closes to the actual item was > a laser pointer that was declared as a flashlight. > Still not worth it. >I suspect the US government is the real problem. Ever since they started FREE TRADE with Canada, Exporting out the country has become a real night mare, and getting worse, other than books, for small orders. I need $2 part from ebay and $80 shipping? My mattress popped a spring Friday night, so I need to get a new bed stuff, from the local furniture place. Half the stuff was Online Only, and like $200 shipping. Don't people keep some inventory in stock any more? Free delivery if using our credit card, other wise $100 in town. How much for two gorilla's, 3 bananas and truck. I don't mind paying shipping for the BIG STUFF, you expect that. Ben. PS: I ordered off Amazon, a new mattress in Monday, a new bed frame Thursday. --===============3277465929768645298==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Sun Oct 23 18:27:50 2022 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Is this a RIFA (uV3100-10 PSU)? Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 19:27:32 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8975943784311082526==" --===============8975943784311082526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm working on cleaning up a bit of battery leakage in a MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 and while it's apart I decided to look inside the PSU (an H7822-00). It's nice and clean inside with no bulging caps. What it does have is an X2 capacitor, as shown here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dpdqJ3tuGfsRDR3Y6. It doesn't appear to be damaged and I can't see the word "RIFA" on it anywhere but I can't see two of the sides because of other components that get in the way. So does anyone know for sure whether it is a RIFA brand or not, or do I have to desolder it to be sure? Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============8975943784311082526==-- From johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org Sun Oct 23 19:26:23 2022 From: "John H. Reinhardt" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is this a RIFA (uV3100-10 PSU)? Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 14:19:08 -0500 Message-ID: <201a5c61-1f3b-dd9e-551c-9ce920fe1b5b@thereinhardts.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1713654263548880180==" --===============1713654263548880180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/23/2022 1:27 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I'm working on cleaning up a bit of battery leakage in a MicroVAX 3100 Mode= l 10 and while it's apart I decided to look inside the PSU (an H7822-00). > > It's nice and clean inside with no bulging caps. What it does have is an X2= capacitor, as shown here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dpdqJ3tuGfsRDR3Y6. > > > It doesn't appear to be damaged and I can't see the word "RIFA" on it anywh= ere but I can't see two of the sides because of other components that get in = the way. > > So does anyone know for sure whether it is a RIFA brand or not, or do I hav= e to desolder it to be sure? > > > Thanks > > Antonio > > It looks like the RIFA caps I've removed from my DEC H7864 P/S. Though mine w= ere colored more toward the amber you find dead flies fossilized in and had v= isible cracks in the case.=C2=A0 The RIFA logo/name was on one side with othe= r markings on the other side, on the top was only the X2 and the value. You might have to remove it just to be certain that it is a RIFA, but the top= lettering and the overall look point in that direction. --=20 John H. Reinhardt --===============1713654263548880180==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Sun Oct 23 21:46:20 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is this a RIFA (uV3100-10 PSU)? Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 22:18:38 +0100 Message-ID: <01SJHQ0MHUHS8WWHK8@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1866077959426236447==" --===============1866077959426236447== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm working on cleaning up a bit of battery leakage in a MicroVAX 3100 > Model 10 and while it's apart I decided to look inside the PSU (an > H7822-00). > > It's nice and clean inside with no bulging caps. What it does have is an > X2 capacitor, as shown here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dpdqJ3tuGfsRDR3Y6. > > > It doesn't appear to be damaged and I can't see the word "RIFA" on it > anywhere but I can't see two of the sides because of other components > that get in the way. > > So does anyone know for sure whether it is a RIFA brand or not, or do I > have to desolder it to be sure? > Antonio, It does look rather like the troublesome RIFA capacitors that come in transparent / slightly yellow cases. However, it seems to be lacking the usual tell tale cracks. If it is a RIFA, the worst it will do is create lots of smoke and stink the place out. This is not a big deal compared to the six/ten 1800uF 25V electrolytics in H7821/H7822 power supplies. If these are not already leaking (look for a ring of brown goo around the base, sometimes only visible after unsoldering them), they are very likely to start leaking soon, even more likely if the power supply has not been stored in it's natural orientation. These can do a lot of damage to the power supply and anything else the goo gets on. I would prioritise sorting out the ten dodgy electrolytics and deal with the suspected RIFA afterwards. (I found that the top board in a H7822 is identical or nearly identical to the single board in a H7821) Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > > Thanks > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio(a)acarlini.com > > --===============1866077959426236447==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Mon Oct 24 20:07:19 2022 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is this a RIFA (uV3100-10 PSU)? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 21:07:02 +0100 Message-ID: <16cd53c5-1298-2807-49fd-bcfc54787f37@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <201a5c61-1f3b-dd9e-551c-9ce920fe1b5b@thereinhardts.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7843422524583718039==" --===============7843422524583718039== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23/10/2022 20:19, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like the RIFA caps I've removed from my DEC H7864 P/S. Though=20 > mine were colored more toward the amber you find dead flies fossilized=20 > in and had visible cracks in the case.=C2=A0 The RIFA logo/name was on one = > side with other markings on the other side, on the top was only the X2=20 > and the value. > > You might have to remove it just to be certain that it is a RIFA, but=20 > the top lettering and the overall look point in that direction. On 23/10/2022 22:18, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > It does look rather like the troublesome RIFA capacitors that come in > transparent / slightly yellow cases.=C2=A0 However, it seems to be lacking = the > usual tell tale cracks. You are both right: I desoldered it tonight and it is indeed a RIFA:=20 https://photos.app.goo.gl/smYWrNeuFeo6Ragw7. I measured it as: 28mm W x 16mm D x 13mm H. There are a couple of=20 matches so I'll probably buy a few from each of these: https://www.bitsboxuk.com/index.php?main_page=3Dproduct_info&cPath=3D65_81&pr= oducts_id=3D409 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124149363651 the bitsbox one may be a teensy bit to large but the ebay one should fit=20 nicely. Neither is too expensive even with postage so I'll buy a few,=20 given that I do have a fair few PSUs knocking around. > > This is not a big deal compared to the six/ten 1800uF 25V > electrolytics in H7821/H7822 power supplies.=C2=A0 If these are not already > leaking (look for a ring of brown goo around the base, sometimes only > visible after unsoldering them), they are very likely to start leaking > soon, even more likely if the power supply has not been stored in it's > natural orientation.=C2=A0 These can do a lot of damage to the power supply > and anything else the goo gets on. I have four H7868-B modules (two per BA213) that don't work and two of=20 them have leaking caps, and I mean *seriously* leaking!. This PSU though=20 (the H7822-00) is currently OK: None of the caps show any sign of=20 leaking or bulging. Given how easily the RIFA popped out, I might=20 speculatively try removing one of the 1800uF ones just to see what it=20 looks like underneath, and maybe measure its value too. Mouser wants=20 =C2=A31.10 each (for 10+) and also charges =C2=A312 minimum shipping, digikey= =20 seems similar; eBay does have a UK seller doing 10 for =C2=A36, which might=20 be a better option if I need to go that way. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============7843422524583718039==-- From rhamm@motion-it.nl Mon Oct 24 20:19:48 2022 From: Roderic Hamm To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 20:19:34 +0000 Message-ID: <166664277454.2127592.4492986378767280534@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBY5PR02MB69324AAC5B7A85CE4BACCA9A855B9=40BY5PR02MB?= =?utf-8?q?6932=2Enamprd02=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3111664780513207650==" --===============3111664780513207650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have added some photo's of the strap and end fittings in the bucket https:/= /photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMg9OstC9aqufVPf9Wnh4nKw1DfLOrG4vbVhT1l1RKu4XQb= C3BAJNP1b5j6DkPo9g.=20 The measure is in centimeters. Regards, Roderic. --===============3111664780513207650==-- From rhamm@motion-it.nl Mon Oct 24 20:39:54 2022 From: "RHamm@motion-it.nl" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 22:22:49 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <166664277454.2127592.4492986378767280534@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8889941839321312622==" --===============8889941839321312622== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Better link. https://photos.app.goo.gl/NG7kCK4qHyDgNKxb6=20 From: Roderic Hamm via cctalk To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Roderic Hamm Date: 24-10-2022 22:19 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap I have added some photo's of the strap and end fittings in the bucket=20 https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMg9OstC9aqufVPf9Wnh4nKw1DfLOrG4vbVhT1l1= RKu4XQbC3BAJNP1b5j6DkPo9g .=20 The measure is in centimeters. Regards, Roderic. --===============8889941839321312622==-- From bkr@WildHareComputers.com Mon Oct 24 22:27:31 2022 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 16:26:52 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6733545359754423874==" --===============6733545359754423874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General Nova and Eclipse software. This license allows educational, hobbyist, non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software that changed the world in many ways. The initial archives are currently available at: www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw and includes documentation for the corresponding software. This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the original Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th anniversary was hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA. Some of the festivities can be seen at: www.Nova-At-50.org and www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that can run all of the software will be introduced later this week. Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's significant contributions to computer history. We seek DG hardware, software, documentation, sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the archives for posterity. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org www.WildHareComputers.com www.NovasAreForever.org --===============6733545359754423874==-- From dce@skynet.be Mon Oct 24 22:39:48 2022 From: Dominique Carlier To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 00:39:21 +0200 Message-ID: <60327e2a-07e4-05cf-db81-adb4243913db@skynet.be> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8004213410761663321==" --===============8004213410761663321== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bruce This is Wonderful ! Many thanks ! Dominique On 25/10/2022 00:26, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: > > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a > "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General > Nova and Eclipse software.  This license allows educational, hobbyist, > non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software > that changed the world in many ways. > > The initial archives are currently available at: > > www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw > > and includes documentation for the corresponding software. > > > This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the > original > Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th > anniversary was > hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA.  Some of the > festivities > can be seen at: > > www.Nova-At-50.org > > and > > www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html > > > To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that > can run all of the > software will be introduced later this week. > > > Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's > significant contributions to computer history.  We seek DG hardware, > software, documentation, > sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the > archives for posterity. > > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com > > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > > www.WildHareComputers.com > > www.NovasAreForever.org --===============8004213410761663321==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Oct 24 23:35:54 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:35:00 -0400 Message-ID: <2CEB2252-C151-4F60-9BFC-AE009ECFC4F1@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1006020884090276356==" --===============1006020884090276356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very nice! So I take it that's a sublicense of Dell/EMC IP? It doesn't say = that. paul > On Oct 24, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a > "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General > Nova and Eclipse software. This license allows educational, hobbyist, > non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software > that changed the world in many ways. >=20 > The initial archives are currently available at: >=20 > www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw >=20 > and includes documentation for the corresponding software. >=20 >=20 > This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the original > Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th annivers= ary was > hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA. Some of the festivities > can be seen at: >=20 > www.Nova-At-50.org >=20 > and >=20 > www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html >=20 >=20 > To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that can r= un all of the > software will be introduced later this week. >=20 >=20 > Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's > significant contributions to computer history. We seek DG hardware, softwa= re, documentation, > sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the > archives for posterity. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com >=20 > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org >=20 > www.WildHareComputers.com >=20 > www.NovasAreForever.org --===============1006020884090276356==-- From ian@platinum.net Mon Oct 24 23:55:23 2022 From: Ian McLaughlin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LCM news? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 16:39:51 -0700 Message-ID: <02C350F0-FEBA-476A-AD60-66C7276AE28E@platinum.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2778432044553896682==" --===============2778432044553896682== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did anyone else just get the semi-automated-looking email from the Living Com= puter Museum reminding that the online collection is still online and how to = access it? It was a bit of a shock to me - I was aware that the online collec= tion was still accessible, but it just seems =E2=80=98strange=E2=80=99 to get= an email from them out of the blue. Oh how I wished it was some good news. Here=E2=80=99s hoping that one day Vulcan realize what they have. Ian --===============2778432044553896682==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 25 00:00:50 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM news? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 20:00:31 -0400 Message-ID: <266182C8-C508-417D-9AA4-3B3ECF8FAD2D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <02C350F0-FEBA-476A-AD60-66C7276AE28E@platinum.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0398925623486623469==" --===============0398925623486623469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 24, 2022, at 7:39 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Did anyone else just get the semi-automated-looking email from the Living C= omputer Museum reminding that the online collection is still online and how t= o access it? It was a bit of a shock to me - I was aware that the online coll= ection was still accessible, but it just seems =E2=80=98strange=E2=80=99 to g= et an email from them out of the blue. Oh how I wished it was some good news. >=20 > Here=E2=80=99s hoping that one day Vulcan realize what they have. I remember getting such a thing months ago, but not recently. When I did som= e looking it appeared to me that essentially all of what's online is simulato= rs, not real machines. That's nice but not very special; it's something many= other hobbyists could duplicate. paul --===============0398925623486623469==-- From bkr@WildHareComputers.com Tue Oct 25 00:23:57 2022 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 18:28:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2CEB2252-C151-4F60-9BFC-AE009ECFC4F1@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2565909810759940021==" --===============2565909810759940021== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G'day Paul - It is not a sublicense - Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., now has full=20 IP rights and title to Data General software pursuant to a transfer=20 agreement by DG/EMC[/Dell] and Wild Hare. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. On 10/24/2022 5:35 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Very nice! So I take it that's a sublicense of Dell/EMC IP? It doesn't sa= y that. >=20 > paul >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 24, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a >> "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General >> Nova and Eclipse software. This license allows educational, hobbyist, >> non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software >> that changed the world in many ways. >> >> The initial archives are currently available at: >> >> www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw >> >> and includes documentation for the corresponding software. >> >> >> This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the original >> Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th anniver= sary was >> hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA. Some of the festivities >> can be seen at: >> >> www.Nova-At-50.org >> >> and >> >> www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html >> >> >> To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that can = run all of the >> software will be introduced later this week. >> >> >> Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's >> significant contributions to computer history. We seek DG hardware, softw= are, documentation, >> sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the >> archives for posterity. >> >> >> >> Bruce Ray >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. >> Denver, Colorado USA >> bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com >> >> ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org >> >> www.WildHareComputers.com >> >> www.NovasAreForever.org >=20 --===============2565909810759940021==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 00:42:23 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PALM assembler now available (5100/5110/5120) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:41:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0471580483597385333==" --===============0471580483597385333== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wanted to pass along that PALM has been added as a target to the Macro Assembler AS. This means writing some assembly stuff for the old IBM 5100/5110/5120 systems. Assembler available here: http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/ So no one has to re-type it, the "bounce" sample is located here: https://github.com/voidstar78/5110VEMU/blob/main/bin/sample1_palm.asm Norbert has the online IBM5110 emulator, but it doesn't have a way to "script inputs". Not sure if he's in the mood to crack that open again, but it would be a nice feature to add (a kind of "File Open" and just script the content of the file like typing on its emulated keyboard).. Alternative way to test some compiled assembly is to script it into the 5110VEMU located here: https://github.com/voidstar78/5110VEMU/tree/main/bin (Wintel builds, uses pdcurses which might not be too hard to port to other systems) Or if have a physical system willing to power up, you can use a serial port as a proxy to the keyboard: https://github.com/voidstar78/KBD5110/tree/main/CODE Screen is port mapped at 0x0200, so drawing stuff is easy. I'll work on an example to poll keyboard inputs - then we're in business for some interactive software content :D (well, will need some RNG solution next) Cheers! --===============0471580483597385333==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue Oct 25 02:46:18 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 02:45:50 +0000 Message-ID: <1822408401.1674626.1666665950341@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8024272868246089170==" --===============8024272868246089170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wild Hare Rocks!!!Thanks guys!Ed Sharpe archivist for smecc Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 5:23 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: G'day Paul - It is not a sublicense - Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., now has full=20 IP rights and title to Data General software pursuant to a transfer=20 agreement by DG/EMC[/Dell] and Wild Hare. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. On 10/24/2022 5:35 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Very nice!=C2=A0 So I take it that's a sublicense of Dell/EMC IP?=C2=A0 It = doesn't say that. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 paul >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 24, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a >> "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General >> Nova and Eclipse software.=C2=A0 This license allows educational, hobbyist, >> non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software >> that changed the world in many ways. >> >> The initial archives are currently available at: >> >> www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw >> >> and includes documentation for the corresponding software. >> >> >> This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the original >> Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th anniver= sary was >> hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA.=C2=A0 Some of the festiv= ities >> can be seen at: >> >> www.Nova-At-50.org >> >> and >> >> www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html >> >> >> To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that can = run all of the >> software will be introduced later this week. >> >> >> Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's >> significant contributions to computer history.=C2=A0 We seek DG hardware, = software, documentation, >> sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the >> archives for posterity. >> >> >> >> Bruce Ray >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. >> Denver, Colorado USA >> bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com >> >> ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org >> >> www.WildHareComputers.com >> >> www.NovasAreForever.org >=20 =20 --===============8024272868246089170==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 03:03:56 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 11:03:22 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1019312714735738530==" --===============1019312714735738530== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Bruce! Thats great news. Best regards Tom On Tue, 25 Oct 2022, 6:27 am Bruce Ray via cctalk, wrote: > > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a > "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General > Nova and Eclipse software. This license allows educational, hobbyist, > non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software > that changed the world in many ways. > > The initial archives are currently available at: > > www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw > > and includes documentation for the corresponding software. > > > This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the original > Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th > anniversary was > hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA. Some of the festivities > can be seen at: > > www.Nova-At-50.org > > and > > www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html > > > To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that > can run all of the > software will be introduced later this week. > > > Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's > significant contributions to computer history. We seek DG hardware, > software, documentation, > sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the > archives for posterity. > > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com > > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > > www.WildHareComputers.com > > www.NovasAreForever.org > --===============1019312714735738530==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Tue Oct 25 04:02:49 2022 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM news? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 21:02:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <02C350F0-FEBA-476A-AD60-66C7276AE28E@platinum.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6359879805673237362==" --===============6359879805673237362== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 24, 2022, at 16:55, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFDid anyone else just get the semi-automated-looking email from the= Living Computer Museum reminding that the online collection is still online = and how to access it? It was a bit of a shock to me - I was aware that the on= line collection was still accessible, but it just seems =E2=80=98strange=E2= =80=99 to get an email from them out of the blue. Oh how I wished it was some= good news. >=20 I received it as well. alan=20 --===============6359879805673237362==-- From jlw@jlw.com Tue Oct 25 04:11:09 2022 From: Jeff Woolsey To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM news? Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 21:01:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <266182C8-C508-417D-9AA4-3B3ECF8FAD2D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7091160696988477200==" --===============7091160696988477200== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/24/22 5:00 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I remember getting such a thing months ago, but not recently. I got one today. > When I did some looking it appeared to me that essentially all of what's = online is simulators, not real machines. That's nice but not very special; i= t's something many other hobbyists could duplicate. Do you remember if the DtCyber they run for the 6500 has dual-CPU=20 capability? --=20 Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire --===============7091160696988477200==-- From lars@nocrew.org Tue Oct 25 08:00:15 2022 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LCM news? Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 07:35:04 +0000 Message-ID: <7wr0yw73vb.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <266182C8-C508-417D-9AA4-3B3ECF8FAD2D@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7831677068659377463==" --===============7831677068659377463== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Koning wrote: > When I did some looking it appeared to me that essentially all of > what's online is simulators, not real machines. That's right, but at least ITS is running on a real PDP-10 now. --===============7831677068659377463==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 25 08:01:43 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PALM assembler now available (5100/5110/5120) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 10:01:24 +0200 Message-ID: <2ab764b-544d-795b-a698-d572e7f51acb@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9094773353335664586==" --===============9094773353335664586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 24 Oct 2022, Steve Lewis wrote: > Wanted to pass along that PALM has been added as a target to the Macro > Assembler AS. This means writing some assembly stuff for the old IBM > 5100/5110/5120 systems. > > Assembler available here: > http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/ Funny, as this is the very assembler that I had added the PALM target years ago for my simulator ;-) It would have been nice if you had talked to me before as to have one single implementation. But as I see, you took the original IBM mnemonics whereas I have created more readable ones that make more sense :-) Christian --===============9094773353335664586==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 09:01:23 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PALM assembler now available (5100/5110/5120) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 04:00:47 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2ab764b-544d-795b-a698-d572e7f51acb@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2979032164624103867==" --===============2979032164624103867== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christian! I tried contacting you a few months ago. Apologies, I suspect some intermediate ISP may be blocking gmail? I've seen this happen with other contacts. Alfred Arnold made the changes to Macro AS himself, and he used both yours and the IBM mnemonics since there were no conflicts. And now, I think it's time for a "Bad Apple" style demoscene for the 5100 (as one was made for the 5150), before its 50th in 2025. Let's see what some raw PALM can do. Quick question, Christian were you aware of the microcode Appendix C in the original IBM 5100 MIM? I'd assume Yes - but it's something I've always been curious about, if that appendix had ever helped you at all, or if it was too lacking in details? That Appendix C got removed for the 5110 (which has the same Processor/Controller). I'd assume you alway had access to the 5100 manuals, not just the 5110's. -Steve On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 3:01 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, 24 Oct 2022, Steve Lewis wrote: > > Wanted to pass along that PALM has been added as a target to the Macro > > Assembler AS. This means writing some assembly stuff for the old IBM > > 5100/5110/5120 systems. > > > > Assembler available here: > > http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/ > > Funny, as this is the very assembler that I had added the PALM target > years ago for my simulator ;-) > > It would have been nice if you had talked to me before as to have one > single implementation. But as I see, you took the original IBM mnemonics > whereas I have created more readable ones that make more sense :-) > > Christian > --===============2979032164624103867==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Oct 25 13:17:19 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:16:53 -0400 Message-ID: <7DEDB1BF-98AA-448D-AD4B-42288FE4CB39@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0917271542080459359==" --===============0917271542080459359== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 24, 2022, at 8:28 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > G'day Paul - >=20 >=20 > It is not a sublicense - Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., now has full IP = rights and title to Data General software pursuant to a transfer agreement by= DG/EMC[/Dell] and Wild Hare. >=20 > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. >=20 > On 10/24/2022 5:35 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Very nice! So I take it that's a sublicense of Dell/EMC IP? It doesn't s= ay that. >> paul Bruce, That simplifies things a lot. Thank you for your efforts! paul --===============0917271542080459359==-- From bkr@WildHareComputers.com Tue Oct 25 22:35:35 2022 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License, update 2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:39:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3157815218923109714==" --===============3157815218923109714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Data General public archive Update 2 has been uploaded to the web site, and includes the following additions: Software added: - MRDOS and TRDO - AOS IDEA - AOS INFOS II - RTOS Datagen - RTOS - AOS CEO - AOS RPG II - diagnostic software, paper tape Documentation/manuals added for: - computer reference manuals - RTOS Datagen - RTOS - DOS - SOS - DOS [Diskette] - DG/RDOS - MP/OS - MP/AOS - AOS IDEA - AOS INFOS II - AOS CEO - AOS RPG II -- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org --===============3157815218923109714==-- From raywjewhurst@gmail.com Tue Oct 25 22:52:52 2022 From: Ray Jewhurst To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License, update 2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:52:35 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5147017185126352328==" --===============5147017185126352328== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will the upcoming emulator/simulator be for Windows, Linux or both? The only = reason why I am asking is I would like to know which pc to start collecting f= iles on. Thanks Ray Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Bruce Ray via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2022 6:39:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bruce Ray Subject: [cctalk] Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License, update 2 Data General public archive Update 2 has been uploaded to the web site, and includes the following additions: Software added: - MRDOS and TRDO - AOS IDEA - AOS INFOS II - RTOS Datagen - RTOS - AOS CEO - AOS RPG II - diagnostic software, paper tape Documentation/manuals added for: - computer reference manuals - RTOS Datagen - RTOS - DOS - SOS - DOS [Diskette] - DG/RDOS - MP/OS - MP/AOS - AOS IDEA - AOS INFOS II - AOS CEO - AOS RPG II -- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org --===============5147017185126352328==-- From bkr@WildHareComputers.com Wed Oct 26 00:23:59 2022 From: Bruce Ray To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License, update 2 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 18:28:20 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CPH7PR10MB6033813BC2A4432C4EB0B02AA3319=40PH7PR10MB?= =?utf-8?q?6033=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0231586444479203491==" --===============0231586444479203491== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G'day Ray - The three targets are currently Windows 7/10/11, Linux x86 (32-bit),=20 Linux ARM (Raspberry Pi) 32-bit. Bruce On 10/25/2022 4:52 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > Will the upcoming emulator/simulator be for Windows, Linux or both? The onl= y reason why I am asking is I would like to know which pc to start collecting= files on. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Ray >=20 > Get Outlook for Android > ________________________________ > From: Bruce Ray via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2022 6:39:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Bruce Ray > Subject: [cctalk] Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License, update 2 >=20 > Data General public archive Update 2 has been uploaded to the web site, > and includes the following additions: >=20 > Software added: >=20 > - MRDOS and TRDO > - AOS IDEA > - AOS INFOS II > - RTOS Datagen > - RTOS > - AOS CEO > - AOS RPG II > - diagnostic software, paper tape >=20 > Documentation/manuals added for: >=20 > - computer reference manuals > - RTOS Datagen > - RTOS > - DOS > - SOS > - DOS [Diskette] > - DG/RDOS > - MP/OS > - MP/AOS > - AOS IDEA > - AOS INFOS II > - AOS CEO > - AOS RPG II >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com >=20 > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org --===============0231586444479203491==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 26 08:23:45 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PALM assembler now available (5100/5110/5120) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 10:23:21 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6591795296123485455==" --===============6591795296123485455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 25 Oct 2022, Steve Lewis wrote: > Christian! I tried contacting you a few months ago. Apologies, I suspect > some intermediate ISP may be blocking gmail? I've seen this happen with > other contacts. Oh my, yes I have some mail chaos on my system and I guess yours must have been "lost" somewhere. I need to dig through my pile.... > Alfred Arnold made the changes to Macro AS himself, and he used both yours > and the IBM mnemonics since there were no conflicts. Perfect! I didn't know that. > And now, I think it's time for a "Bad Apple" style demoscene for the 5100 > (as one was made for the 5150), before its 50th in 2025. Let's see what > some raw PALM can do. Hehe, this sounds like a great idea! Did I send you my Kermit implementation or my Infocom V2 interpreter? > Quick question, Christian were you aware of the microcode Appendix C in the > original IBM 5100 MIM? I'd assume Yes - but it's something I've always > been curious about, if that appendix had ever helped you at all, or if it > was too lacking in details? That Appendix C got removed for the 5110 > (which has the same Processor/Controller). I'd assume you alway had > access to the 5100 manuals, not just the 5110's. Yes I'm aware of that. But I noticed that there are significant differences between the 5100 and the 5110 concerning the different ROS and the I/O functions like switching between ROS/RWS or controlling the display adapter. At the time when I reverse-engineered the 5110 I didn't have access to the 5100 docs, though, only to some copies of IBM internal papers (on my 5110 site). Christian --===============6591795296123485455==-- From cube1@charter.net Wed Oct 26 13:11:53 2022 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:26:42 -0500 Message-ID: <82a43aa3-e1e4-ce72-e3d3-58012cd1ffb9@charter.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5686976209662984700==" --===============5686976209662984700== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ray, I have quite a lot of material you do not have listed. For a while I had it on my Google Drive (password secured), but not any longer. The attached files should give you an idea. Contact me off list if you want to pursue a transfer. (I suppose the list may well not accept attachments...) JRJ On 10/24/2022 5:26 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: > > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a > "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General > Nova and Eclipse software.  This license allows educational, hobbyist, > non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software > that changed the world in many ways. > > The initial archives are currently available at: > > www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw > > and includes documentation for the corresponding software. > > > This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the original > Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th > anniversary was > hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA.  Some of the festivities > can be seen at: > > www.Nova-At-50.org > > and > > www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html > > > To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that > can run all of the > software will be introduced later this week. > > > Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's > significant contributions to computer history.  We seek DG hardware, > software, documentation, > sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the > archives for posterity. > > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com > > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > > www.WildHareComputers.com > > www.NovasAreForever.org --===============5686976209662984700== Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! On Mon, 2022-10-24 19:41:56 -0500, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Wanted to pass along that PALM has been added as a target to the Macro > Assembler AS. This means writing some assembly stuff for the old IBM > 5100/5110/5120 systems. >=20 > Assembler available here: > http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/ I'm doing automated builds for some software (as a QA check) and thought about pulling this Assembler in as well. Are there only the release tarballs? Or is there some GIT repo somewhere as well? If there isn't, I'd probably feed the tarballs into a repo by myself, but I'd prefer to just pull from a publically hostet repo of course. MfG, JBG --=20 --===============6939771673230417612==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 06:15:31 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PALM assembler now available (5100/5110/5120) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 01:13:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3478188477137725951==" --===============3478188477137725951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hehe, this sounds like a great idea! > Did I send you my Kermit implementation or my Infocom V2 interpreter? Nope - would love to check them out, any PALM examples. Your annotated disassemble of the Executive ROS is helping a lot, of examples of how to do certain things in native PALM examples. Some idea for implementing a RNG in PALM is probably going to be needed (for any gaming). Does your Kermit use the rear external IO? I don't have any of the asynch IO or comm. cards. But I've imagined it would be possible to attach a WiModem232 to the rear external IO and (using 3 wires) to implement a terminal in PALM. But being completely "CPU" based, unsure what baud rate it could achieve. This is similar to the original Tandy Color Computer - if you use its built in "Serial IO" connector, you can only get 1200 baud. But if you use the "RS232 Pak" with the proper buffer, it can do 9600 baud. So, you can get a CoCo1 on the internet (or even a PET) - and I think it actually would be possible to get a 5100 on the internet in a similar way! I recently got in contact with Hal Prewitt who made CoreNet for the IBM 5110. He confirmed that the hardware no longer exist (as far as he is aware), but he does still have a copy of PC51 (essentially a 5110 BASIC emulator that runs on the IBM PC -- so those fancy BASIC programs that use the FORMS feature of the IBM 5110 can continue to run on the IBM PC; unclear if he still has the source code for it). > differences between the 5100 and the 5110 concerning the different ROS and > the I/O functions like switching between ROS/RWS or controlling the > display adapter. Indeed, I ran into the same issue when running the extracted 5100 Executive ROS in your PALM emulator. It can run the BUP, and I think I managed to send the scancode early to activate its DCP (if you do so too early, the BUP just shows you the scan code - but if you wait to a certain time just before BUP finishes, some CMD-ATTN {I forget the exact scan code} like combination activates the DCP). So the 5100 ROS binary is extracted correctly, but I had issues as well in the ROS/RWS transition. Solving that before 2025 would be a nice 50th gift as well, since otherwise there is still no 5100 emulator -- where it helps to dev/test things in an emulator, before powering up a physical 5100. Aside from github, I'm not sure of a convenient repository to archive/share any PALM assembly examples. -Steve On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 3:23 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Oct 2022, Steve Lewis wrote: > > Christian! I tried contacting you a few months ago. Apologies, I > suspect > > some intermediate ISP may be blocking gmail? I've seen this happen with > > other contacts. > > Oh my, yes I have some mail chaos on my system and I guess yours must have > been "lost" somewhere. I need to dig through my pile.... > > > Alfred Arnold made the changes to Macro AS himself, and he used both > yours > > and the IBM mnemonics since there were no conflicts. > > Perfect! I didn't know that. > > > And now, I think it's time for a "Bad Apple" style demoscene for the 5100 > > (as one was made for the 5150), before its 50th in 2025. Let's see what > > some raw PALM can do. > > Hehe, this sounds like a great idea! > Did I send you my Kermit implementation or my Infocom V2 interpreter? > > > Quick question, Christian were you aware of the microcode Appendix C in > the > > original IBM 5100 MIM? I'd assume Yes - but it's something I've always > > been curious about, if that appendix had ever helped you at all, or if it > > was too lacking in details? That Appendix C got removed for the 5110 > > (which has the same Processor/Controller). I'd assume you alway had > > access to the 5100 manuals, not just the 5110's. > > Yes I'm aware of that. But I noticed that there are significant > differences between the 5100 and the 5110 concerning the different ROS and > the I/O functions like switching between ROS/RWS or controlling the > display adapter. > At the time when I reverse-engineered the 5110 I didn't have access to the > 5100 docs, though, only to some copies of IBM internal papers (on my > 5110 site). > > Christian > --===============3478188477137725951==-- From lars@nocrew.org Thu Oct 27 08:33:52 2022 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] CAL TSS information and source listings Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 08:33:35 +0000 Message-ID: <7w35b964yo.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8251837666349879939==" --===============8251837666349879939== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul McJones posted this recently: https://mcjones.org/CalTSS/ There aren't a lot of machine readable media, but many listings: https://mcjones.org/CalTSS/source/ --===============8251837666349879939==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 27 11:25:42 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PALM assembler now available (5100/5110/5120) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 13:25:10 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1275599658212212733==" --===============1275599658212212733== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 27 Oct 2022, Steve Lewis wrote: >> Hehe, this sounds like a great idea! >> Did I send you my Kermit implementation or my Infocom V2 interpreter? > > Nope - would love to check them out, any PALM examples. Your annotated Ok, can you remind me next week perhaps? > disassemble of the Executive ROS is helping a lot, of examples of how to do > certain things in native PALM examples. Some idea for implementing a RNG > in PALM is probably going to be needed (for any gaming). I have implemented practically everything that is needed for the interpreter, including the kind of virtual memory/swapping mechanism. And of course, the ASCII-EBCDIC translation and screen output for the 64 chars/line. > Does your Kermit use the rear external IO? I don't have any of the asynch > IO or comm. cards. But I've imagined it would be possible to attach a > WiModem232 to the rear external IO and (using 3 wires) to implement a > terminal in PALM. But being completely "CPU" based, unsure what baud rate > it could achieve. This is similar to the original Tandy Color Computer - > if you use its built in "Serial IO" connector, you can only get 1200 baud. > But if you use the "RS232 Pak" with the proper buffer, it can do 9600 > baud. So, you can get a CoCo1 on the internet (or even a PET) - and I > think it actually would be possible to get a 5100 on the internet in a > similar way! No, I have the Async/Serial I/O feature card. Originally, it only supports up to 1200(?) baud and only half duplex, but since I have drawn the schematics (it's only standard TTL) I know how to program it. It has two modes, a bit transfer mode, and a byte transfer mode. The first one is needed to find the start bit, then you can switch to byte mode and have an interrupt after one transferred character. The trick that I use for full duplex terminal emulation is to only use the bit mode. I get an interrupt twice as many as the baud rate and examine the input line to detect the start bit etc. In the same time, I output a pending bit to be sent. With this, I ended with a speed of up to 4800 baud, already four times of the IBM supported byte mode rate. For file transfers, I use the standard byte mode. The Kermit protocol is made for half duplex transmission line, so there is no special protocol handling needed. There, I can go up to 38400 baud. Note, the I/O card is absolutely dumb. It is mainly a card with clock dividers, shift registers and drivers/receivers. Is has no buffer, nothing. I have always wanted to build a bus interface card. It is a simple open-collector I/O bus with an easy to implement bus protocol. I've dreamt of building a bridge to an 8 bit ISA backplane in order to use simple graphics cards and controllers like serial, parallel or even disk interfaces. I have tons of these laying around here... Christian --===============1275599658212212733==-- From kej@kyrafre.com Thu Oct 27 13:00:54 2022 From: Kevin Jordan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License... Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 16:40:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7479163052692971430==" --===============7479163052692971430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bruce, This is wonderful news. Is there a chance that AOS/VS will be included in the future, along with an MV series emulator? thanks! Kevin On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:23 PM Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: > G'day Paul - > > > It is not a sublicense - Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., now has full > IP rights and title to Data General software pursuant to a transfer > agreement by DG/EMC[/Dell] and Wild Hare. > > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > > > On 10/24/2022 5:35 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Very nice! So I take it that's a sublicense of Dell/EMC IP? It doesn't > say that. > > > > paul > > > > > >> On Oct 24, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., is pleased to announce that a > >> "Hobbyist License" is now available for legacy Data General > >> Nova and Eclipse software. This license allows educational, hobbyist, > >> non-commercial use of the vast amount of DG software - software > >> that changed the world in many ways. > >> > >> The initial archives are currently available at: > >> > >> www.NovasAreForever.org/dgsw > >> > >> and includes documentation for the corresponding software. > >> > >> > >> This October announcement also honors the 54th anniversary of the > original > >> Data General Nova. An international celebration of the Nova's 50th > anniversary was > >> hosted by Wild Computer Systems in Colorado, USA. Some of the > festivities > >> can be seen at: > >> > >> www.Nova-At-50.org > >> > >> and > >> > >> www.Nova-At-50.org/album/index.html > >> > >> > >> To complement this Hobbyist License, a Nova and Eclipse emulator that > can run all of the > >> software will be introduced later this week. > >> > >> > >> Wild Hare Computer Systems is dedicated to preserving Data General's > >> significant contributions to computer history. We seek DG hardware, > software, documentation, > >> sales literature - basically "anything DG" - that can be added to the > >> archives for posterity. > >> > >> > >> > >> Bruce Ray > >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > >> Denver, Colorado USA > >> bkr(a)WildHareComputers.com > >> > >> ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > >> > >> www.WildHareComputers.com > >> > >> www.NovasAreForever.org > > > --===============7479163052692971430==-- From paul@mcjones.org Thu Oct 27 16:13:25 2022 From: paul@mcjones.org To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: CAL TSS information and source listings Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:13:06 +0000 Message-ID: <166688718645.2127592.14488206229560835360@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <7w35b964yo.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0370890861443826173==" --===============0370890861443826173== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Paul McJones posted this recently: > https://mcjones.org/CalTSS/ >=20 > There aren't a lot of machine readable media, but many listings: > https://mcjones.org/CalTSS/source/ I hesitated to post here -- was the CDC 6400 a classic computer? :-) -- but L= ars broke the ice. The system ran on a 6400 with Extended Core Storage and Ce= ntral Exchange Jump (most of the operating system ran on the CPU, counter to = normal CDC 6000 practice). The project took place at UC Berkeley between 1968= and 1971 (although hardware acquisition began in 1966). What the university = really wanted was simple interactive service (editing, BASIC, remote job subm= ission, etc.) in conjunction with batch jobs running on SCOPE on the main, la= rger 6400, but what they got was a state-of-the-art research system offering = capability-based protection, multiple protection domains per process, and mor= e. Unfortunately, it couldn't support enough concurrent users to be economica= l. The technical ideas are well-described here: Butler W. Lampson and Howard E. Sturgis. Reflections on an operating system d= esign. Communications of the ACM, 19(5):251-265, January 1976. https://dl.acm= .org/doi/abs/10.1145/360051.360074 (open access) The project history is described here: Paul McJones and Dave Redell. History of the CAL Timesharing System. Submitte= d to: IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. https://www.mcjones.org/CalTSS= /paper/cal_tss_history.pdf Through heroic effort, Terry Heidelberg has managed to create an emulation en= vironment and boot the system and run some programs, but it's not ready for p= rime time! Paul --===============0370890861443826173==-- From ljw-cctech@ljw.me.uk Thu Oct 27 16:42:13 2022 From: LJW cctech To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] ISO someone to refurbish two IBM 010 card punches Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 18:05:58 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0085668405313336298==" --===============0085668405313336298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, Is there anyone out there that would be prepared to tackle restoring a couple of IBM 010 card punches functionally and cosmetically? This is a paying job! These are the small tabletop units. One is manual: https://flic.kr/p/2nVAJeg The other is motorised: https://flic.kr/p/2nVB8Pa They are apparently complete but will need cleaning, repainting and adjusting, and whatever you can do with the key-tops. The manual one was used by the current owner in 1962 so has some sentimental value! They are in the USA but we can get them to you wherever you are. If you know of anyone who might be interested then feel free to forward this email. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence(a)ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 --===============0085668405313336298==-- From mark.kahrs@gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:07:49 2022 From: Mark Kahrs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 97, Issue 67 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 13:07:19 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <166689000852.2127582.1805170871867006484@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8095785592305640849==" --===============8095785592305640849== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me add that Howard Sturgis' dissertation "Post-mortem for a Time-sharing System" is great reading. It's unusual that failures are documented but this case study is worthy. On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 1:00 PM wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or > body 'help' to > cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner(a)classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: CAL TSS information and source listings (paul(a)mcjones.org) > 2. ISO someone to refurbish two IBM 010 card punches (LJW cctech) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: paul(a)mcjones.org > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 16:13:06 -0000 > Subject: [cctalk] Re: CAL TSS information and source listings > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Paul McJones posted this recently: > > https://mcjones.org/CalTSS/ > > > > There aren't a lot of machine readable media, but many listings: > > https://mcjones.org/CalTSS/source/ > > I hesitated to post here -- was the CDC 6400 a classic computer? :-) -- > but Lars broke the ice. The system ran on a 6400 with Extended Core Storage > and Central Exchange Jump (most of the operating system ran on the CPU, > counter to normal CDC 6000 practice). The project took place at UC Berkeley > between 1968 and 1971 (although hardware acquisition began in 1966). What > the university really wanted was simple interactive service (editing, > BASIC, remote job submission, etc.) in conjunction with batch jobs running > on SCOPE on the main, larger 6400, but what they got was a state-of-the-art > research system offering capability-based protection, multiple protection > domains per process, and more. Unfortunately, it couldn't support enough > concurrent users to be economical. > > The technical ideas are well-described here: > > Butler W. Lampson and Howard E. Sturgis. Reflections on an operating > system design. Communications of the ACM, 19(5):251-265, January 1976. > https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/360051.360074 (open access) > > The project history is described here: > > Paul McJones and Dave Redell. History of the CAL Timesharing System. > Submitted to: IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. > https://www.mcjones.org/CalTSS/paper/cal_tss_history.pdf > > Through heroic effort, Terry Heidelberg has managed to create an emulation > environment and boot the system and run some programs, but it's not ready > for prime time! > > > Paul > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: LJW cctech > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 18:05:58 +0200 > Subject: [cctalk] ISO someone to refurbish two IBM 010 card punches > Hello all, > > Is there anyone out there that would be prepared to tackle restoring > a couple of IBM 010 card punches functionally and cosmetically? > > This is a paying job! > > These are the small tabletop units. > One is manual: https://flic.kr/p/2nVAJeg > The other is motorised: https://flic.kr/p/2nVB8Pa > > They are apparently complete but will need cleaning, repainting and > adjusting, and whatever you can do with the key-tops. > > The manual one was used by the current owner in 1962 so has some > sentimental value! > > They are in the USA but we can get them to you wherever you are. > > If you know of anyone who might be interested then feel free to > forward this email. > > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence(a)ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > --===============8095785592305640849==-- From bostjan@muzej.si Fri Oct 28 11:03:03 2022 From: bostjan spetic To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ISO someone to refurbish two IBM 010 card punches Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2022 19:35:34 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0782727459036789099==" --===============0782727459036789099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh, oh, me too, if you find anyone pls let me know i have one to be restored as well… thx! Best, b Dne čet., 27. okt. 2022 ob 18:42 je LJW cctech via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> napisal/-a: > Hello all, > > Is there anyone out there that would be prepared to tackle restoring > a couple of IBM 010 card punches functionally and cosmetically? > > This is a paying job! > > These are the small tabletop units. > One is manual: https://flic.kr/p/2nVAJeg > The other is motorised: https://flic.kr/p/2nVB8Pa > > They are apparently complete but will need cleaning, repainting and > adjusting, and whatever you can do with the key-tops. > > The manual one was used by the current owner in 1962 so has some > sentimental value! > > They are in the USA but we can get them to you wherever you are. > > If you know of anyone who might be interested then feel free to > forward this email. > > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence(a)ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > --===============0782727459036789099==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Oct 28 15:53:34 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: ISO someone to refurbish two IBM 010 card punches Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2022 16:53:05 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5469826239402380588==" --===============5469826239402380588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 5:42 PM LJW cctech via cctalk wrote: > > Hello all, > > Is there anyone out there that would be prepared to tackle restoring > a couple of IBM 010 card punches functionally and cosmetically? > > This is a paying job! > > These are the small tabletop units. > One is manual: https://flic.kr/p/2nVAJeg > The other is motorised: https://flic.kr/p/2nVB8Pa That's curious. I have an identical manual punch in my collection (in rather worse condition, particularly the rubber keycaps) but it has an ICT nameplate on the front. ICT was 'Internatonal Computers and Tabulators' I think, one of the companies that became ICL. So who actually made said design of punch? -tony --===============5469826239402380588==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Oct 29 08:01:13 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 00:54:55 -0700 Message-ID: <28319115-6366-fc33-6209-28e2254461c3@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3751998383421324230==" --===============3751998383421324230== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been trying to do a little work on the RDI BriteLite IPX I have here, but when it runs more than a few minutes the LCD just blanks out white. The machi= ne seems to still respond to commands, so it seems like it's something with the display hardware. Even powered off and back on it won't go back to normal unt= il I let it sit for awhile. I suspect heat is part of the issue and it certainly feels warm; there are two loud cooling fans inside, but with the case off and checking airflow the fans do seem to be working. Having the case off doesn't make the display any happi= er though. One fan is in the power supply and another fan is in the (LCD?) inverter board. Finger-checking large chips while in operation doesn't burn t= he skin. Anyone familiar with this issue? I suppose I could look for a SPARCstation IPX to take the motherboard out of and replace this one with it, but it seems more like the problem is in the display, which is a custom part. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Fish will never understand fear of deep water. -- Tanner Greer -----------= -- --===============3751998383421324230==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Sat Oct 29 08:07:16 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 08:06:50 +0000 Message-ID: <681185059.826401.1667030810057@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5932964276276759947==" --===============5932964276276759947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re below..... why would they refuse cash? =C2=A0And vy the way, as soon as I had it, I offered it, but they refused the tender. of the building.=C2=A0 The landlord doesn't get to keep a million dollars of property over $4,000 of missed rent.=C2=A0 It is not lawful to liquidate any = of the tenant's property to offset the debt, unless they go through a long and drawn out legal process. Sellam On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 2:11 PM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Shoulda paid the rent. > > A sad tale indeed. > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 4:11 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The good news is that most of my best stuff was either already with me > or I > > was able to get out, including my two Lisa 1's, my (straight) PDP-8, and > > several other precious items.=C2=A0 I long since sold off most of this to= pay > to > > live, since at the same time they destroyed my collection they destroyed > my > > business (not to mention my life's work). > > > > I've gone on to build a new collection out of the old, one that is--like > my > > original collection--unrivaled anywhere on the planet.=C2=A0 But this time > I've > > erected castle walls around it, surrounded by a moat filled with > > alligators. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 11:58 AM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > I didn=E2=80=99t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection be= fore > being > > > locked out again.=C2=A0 I know losing any of it is terrible, but I=E2= =80=99m > guessing > > > you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when recovering > > the > > > 20%, such as your Lisa 1? > > > > > > I kept my collection in storage lockers for years.=C2=A0 I kept moving = to > > > larger and larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because > my > > > collecting got out of control.=C2=A0 Prices kept going up every year an= d it > > was > > > a nightmare having to pay what I did just to store the collection. > > >=C2=A0 Fortunately I was able to move to a house and relocated the colle= ction > > to > > > the basement.=C2=A0 Not everything could come home with me, so I sold t= he > > > remaining lower priority pieces to the first person who could clear the > > > locker over a weekend.=C2=A0 I didn=E2=80=99t get much for it, but at l= east it > didn=E2=80=99t > > go > > > to a recycler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > Long story very short: > > > > > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was > > stored > > > > and wouldn't let me back in.=C2=A0 Had to go to court.=C2=A0 Regained= access > and > > > was > > > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out > again > > > for > > > > good.=C2=A0 Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to > > scatter > > > > it to the wind. > > > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> You had to ask......I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years > ago > > in > > > >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty.... > > > >> -------- Original message --------From: Tom Hunter via cctalk < > > > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22=C2=A0 1:31 AM=C2=A0 (GMT-08:= 00) To: > > > "General > > > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: > > > Tom > > > >> Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage > Computer > > > >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer > > Heist > > > of > > > >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy? > > > > > > > > > > > > =20 --===============5932964276276759947==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Oct 29 10:01:29 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 03:01:12 -0700 Message-ID: <78bc3ea5-46f1-d954-e04c-1cbd6340fb15@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <681185059.826401.1667030810057@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3788424085404035911==" --===============3788424085404035911== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/29/22 01:06, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Re below..... why would they refuse cash? >  And vy the way, as soon as I had it, I offered it, but > they refused the tender. If they accepted any amount from Sellam, they were on the hook for a lot of laws and regulations in the state.  CA has some of the most extensive tenancy rules anywhere. From their treatment of Sellam, they broke them, but when you step into the legal realm, you get into another cesspool.  Ruled by lots of money.  If you can't pay rent, you usually can't afford the retainer for a good lawyer. I had a dispute to pursue about 7 years ago, and when I sought out a reasonable firm to handle it, the starting retainer was $25,000.  No guarantees.  So Sellam was between a rock and a hard place most likely. The way the landlord handled his collection was stupid, so I'm not sure I understand that either. I'm going only on the fact I know Sellam lost a huge collection.  He has disclosed nothing to me.  I'm reading in a lot from a loss I suffer from outright theft of my own in Riverside county.  Mine involved criminal behavior, but again $$ rule. The Storage wars show and fad of doing such things as well as how tax sales are handled in the country is a total crock.  The law breaks into a part of rights and the like and then equity.  The rights part is pretty well defined. But those who want do screw you like tax collectors, storage unit owners can unfairly (my term) seize all assets you have on the property to satisfy the debt In the case of Storage units (not what Sellam had, he was a regular tenant) they seize the entire contents from you after a very short time of delinquency and sell it all and pocket the proceeds like they won the lottery. All sucks. Still sad he had his situation after all this time. --===============3788424085404035911==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Sat Oct 29 10:48:49 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 11:33:18 +0100 Message-ID: <01SJPH4UQP0E8WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <28319115-6366-fc33-6209-28e2254461c3@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6398380151567547456==" --===============6398380151567547456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I've been trying to do a little work on the RDI BriteLite IPX I have here, = but > when it runs more than a few minutes the LCD just blanks out white. The mac= hine > seems to still respond to commands, so it seems like it's something with the > display hardware. Even powered off and back on it won't go back to normal u= ntil > I let it sit for awhile. > > I suspect heat is part of the issue and it certainly feels warm; there are = two > loud cooling fans inside, but with the case off and checking airflow the fa= ns > do seem to be working. Having the case off doesn't make the display any hap= pier > though. One fan is in the power supply and another fan is in the (LCD?) > inverter board. Finger-checking large chips while in operation doesn't burn= the > skin. >=20 At one time it used to be possible to buy aerosol cans of "freezer" which were supposed to help trace faults like this in televisions etc. Maybe it is still available? I have read tales of success using it however I don't ever recall it being any help to me. It may be that I didn't have any of the right sort of faults. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Anyone familiar with this issue? I suppose I could look for a SPARCstation = IPX > to take the motherboard out of and replace this one with it, but it seems m= ore > like the problem is in the display, which is a custom part. >=20 > --=20 > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com= / -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap= .com > -- Fish will never understand fear of deep water. -- Tanner Greer ---------= ---- > --===============6398380151567547456==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Sat Oct 29 14:51:08 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] WTB: Kinetics/Shiva FastPath 4 or 5 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 14:50:39 +0000 Message-ID: <3OvEHJA5SzVNbnPIB99mZCPteqoHA1Cjynpt8wJ-WFcUGmFLbkCnHbesZ8mZmAMN1_EeL2bowDMaGsxSF3ef5cjfFzKCFJlCu7oVjhZgrWE=@glitchwrks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8912595148672567089==" --===============8912595148672567089== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I've been looking for a Kinetics or Shiva FastPath 4 or 5 for a while, withou= t luck. Don't know why I didn't think to ask on the various lists! If anyone = has one they'd like to part with, let me know off-list. Thanks, Jonathan --===============8912595148672567089==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 29 15:01:58 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 11:01:40 -0400 Message-ID: <2b2e7068-4d6d-e9cd-8bdc-7df266b62d64@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6699944371593509626==" --===============6699944371593509626== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I have no clue why I have them. Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. CZ --===============6699944371593509626==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Sat Oct 29 17:14:15 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 13:13:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2b2e7068-4d6d-e9cd-8bdc-7df266b62d64@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0300898833330626329==" --===============0300898833330626329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? Bill On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I > have no clue why I have them. > > Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. > > CZ > --===============0300898833330626329==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 17:53:15 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 17:52:55 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SJPH4UQP0E8WYOLI@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6978840378235302522==" --===============6978840378235302522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This usually means the timer of the pulse width modulation circuit is changin= g.=20 If it=E2=80=99s an RC type circuit, probably the resistor is heating up and c= hanging value. If it=E2=80=99s a ic that controls the PWM then check out the = IC and the components that connect to the control pin. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2022, at 03:48, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>=20 >> I've been trying to do a little work on the RDI BriteLite IPX I have here,= but >> when it runs more than a few minutes the LCD just blanks out white. The ma= chine >> seems to still respond to commands, so it seems like it's something with t= he >> display hardware. Even powered off and back on it won't go back to normal = until >> I let it sit for awhile. >>=20 >> I suspect heat is part of the issue and it certainly feels warm; there are= two >> loud cooling fans inside, but with the case off and checking airflow the f= ans >> do seem to be working. Having the case off doesn't make the display any ha= ppier >> though. One fan is in the power supply and another fan is in the (LCD?) >> inverter board. Finger-checking large chips while in operation doesn't bur= n the >> skin. >>=20 >=20 > At one time it used to be possible to buy aerosol cans of "freezer" which w= ere > supposed to help trace faults like this in televisions etc. Maybe it is st= ill > available? I have read tales of success using it however I don't ever reca= ll > it being any help to me. It may be that I didn't have any of the right sort > of faults. >=20 > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. >=20 >>=20 >> Anyone familiar with this issue? I suppose I could look for a SPARCstation= IPX >> to take the motherboard out of and replace this one with it, but it seems = more >> like the problem is in the display, which is a custom part. >>=20 >> --=20 >> ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.co= m/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap= .com >> -- Fish will never understand fear of deep water. -- Tanner Greer --------= ----- >>=20 --===============6978840378235302522==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sat Oct 29 18:38:04 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 19:37:35 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7534492295657010177==" --===============7534492295657010177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need the right software driver. That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards are getting hard to find now. -tony > Bill > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > > I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I > > have no clue why I have them. > > > > Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. > > > > CZ > > --===============7534492295657010177==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Oct 29 19:56:35 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 12:56:17 -0700 Message-ID: <1d70819d-d0bf-f9cf-dba0-50ec687060e4@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218146FFB438DF54BFD25D0DE4359=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5642691309222687357==" --===============5642691309222687357== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > This usually means the timer of the pulse width modulation circuit is chang= ing.=20 > If it=E2=80=99s an RC type circuit, probably the resistor is heating up and= changing value. If it=E2=80=99s a ic that controls the PWM then check out th= e IC and the components that connect to the control pin. That's an interesting thought. It's almost certainly an IC, though I don't kn= ow the details of the panel (though it looks like it's off-the-shelf, not RDI-custom). I suppose I could start with what's in the cooling airflow zone. My worry is if I found the marginal part(s) I'm not sure how I could easily f= ix it (with my luck it won't be a discrete part). --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- A penny saved is stupid. -------------------------------------------------= -- --===============5642691309222687357==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 20:02:49 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:02:30 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1d70819d-d0bf-f9cf-dba0-50ec687060e4@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2737114110633091378==" --===============2737114110633091378== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there any kind of brightness control? Does it work at all when the screen = goes white? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2022, at 12:56, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> This usually means the timer of the pulse width modulation circuit is chan= ging.=20 >> If it=E2=80=99s an RC type circuit, probably the resistor is heating up an= d changing value. If it=E2=80=99s a ic that controls the PWM then check out t= he IC and the components that connect to the control pin. >=20 > That's an interesting thought. It's almost certainly an IC, though I don't = know > the details of the panel (though it looks like it's off-the-shelf, not > RDI-custom). I suppose I could start with what's in the cooling airflow zon= e. > My worry is if I found the marginal part(s) I'm not sure how I could easily= fix > it (with my luck it won't be a discrete part). >=20 > --=20 > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com= / -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.= com > -- A penny saved is stupid. -----------------------------------------------= ---- >=20 --===============2737114110633091378==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 20:05:22 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:05:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1405495803329610133==" --===============1405495803329610133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can i post your this info to the cccmp discord? I=E2=80=99m sure you=E2=80=99= ll get a few tesponses. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2022, at 11:37, Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >>=20 >> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? >=20 > They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >=20 > You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need > the right software driver. >=20 > That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards > are getting hard to find now. >=20 > -tony >=20 >=20 >=20 >> Bill >>=20 >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I >>> have no clue why I have them. >>>=20 >>> Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. >>>=20 >>> CZ >>>=20 --===============1405495803329610133==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Oct 29 20:06:05 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 13:05:43 -0700 Message-ID: <7aec98d8-5d3a-d890-155a-8c7a770c0e51@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218179E7CCFE7FBD3901E7C7E4359=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8645264750175438559==" --===============8645264750175438559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Is there any kind of brightness control? Does it work at all when the scree= n goes white? There are brightness and contrast controls, but they don't seem to do anything even when the screen is working properly. (Note that this could simply be an issue with the physical controls themselves rather than the display controller.) Likewise, when the screen goes white, turning down the brightness (or upping the contrast) does nothing; the screen remains blank bright white. The CCFL backlight is unchanged and fully illuminated. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- I thought his Markov chain needed oiling. -- Mark J. Blair ---------------= -- --===============8645264750175438559==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 20:15:27 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:15:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7aec98d8-5d3a-d890-155a-8c7a770c0e51@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2733798492672284047==" --===============2733798492672284047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One thought is that the brightness control might be heating up and changing v= alue. You can check the controls easily with a ohm meter. Check ohms across t= he control when cold, disconnect ohm meter and plug in the machine until it g= oes white. Then disconnect and measure across the control again.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2022, at 13:05, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> Is there any kind of brightness control? Does it work at all when the scre= en goes white? >=20 > There are brightness and contrast controls, but they don't seem to do anyth= ing > even when the screen is working properly. (Note that this could simply be an > issue with the physical controls themselves rather than the display > controller.) Likewise, when the screen goes white, turning down the brightn= ess > (or upping the contrast) does nothing; the screen remains blank bright whit= e. > The CCFL backlight is unchanged and fully illuminated. >=20 > --=20 > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com= / -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.= com > -- I thought his Markov chain needed oiling. -- Mark J. Blair -------------= ---- >=20 --===============2733798492672284047==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 20:17:05 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RDI BriteLite IPX keeps going to white screen Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:16:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218198485E85061A9A5E1FD1E4359=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6864376455821726133==" --===============6864376455821726133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The value of the control might be marked on the board too so you could use th= at as a guide.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2022, at 13:15, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOne thought is that the brightness control might be heating up and= changing value. You can check the controls easily with a ohm meter. Check oh= ms across the control when cold, disconnect ohm meter and plug in the machine= until it goes white. Then disconnect and measure across the control again.=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Oct 29, 2022, at 13:05, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>> Is there any kind of brightness control? Does it work at all when the scr= een goes white? >>=20 >> There are brightness and contrast controls, but they don't seem to do anyt= hing >> even when the screen is working properly. (Note that this could simply be = an >> issue with the physical controls themselves rather than the display >> controller.) Likewise, when the screen goes white, turning down the bright= ness >> (or upping the contrast) does nothing; the screen remains blank bright whi= te. >> The CCFL backlight is unchanged and fully illuminated. >>=20 >> --=20 >> ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.co= m/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.= com >> -- I thought his Markov chain needed oiling. -- Mark J. Blair ------------= ----- >>=20 --===============6864376455821726133==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 29 22:21:12 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 18:20:49 -0400 Message-ID: <5b96e2b0-72a1-a365-f6bd-463ef374980b@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181696314D8C80B571143FEE4359=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5483359690858895241==" --===============5483359690858895241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure. Oh in terms of price, I'd expect the standard fare: Donate an amount of=20 money to your local soup kitchen plus shipping cost. That way someone=20 benefits from them and they don't just go to gold scrappers. C On 10/29/2022 4:05 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Can i post your this info to the cccmp discord? I=E2=80=99m sure you=E2=80= =99ll get a few tesponses. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Oct 29, 2022, at 11:37, Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? >> >> They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >> >> You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need >> the right software driver. >> >> That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards >> are getting hard to find now. >> >> -tony >> >> >> >>> Bill >>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I >>>> have no clue why I have them. >>>> >>>> Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. >>>> >>>> CZ >>>> --===============5483359690858895241==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Oct 29 22:36:41 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 16:35:26 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1828709860804279461==" --===============1828709860804279461== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? I just purchased a lifetime license based on the documentation on their site. The problem is that they don't have 4.x available for download. I just need the install files and I'll use my personal license. N.B. I need this to work on an ancient Windows XP system that I'm messing with as part of retro computing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1828709860804279461==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sun Oct 30 01:02:50 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 21:02:22 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0298945729893855875==" --===============0298945729893855875== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The performance of the DZ11 is not good.=C2=A0 It did an interrupt for every = character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage=20 return and then did a DNA, IIRC. Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time.=C2=A0 We used Able=20 DMAXes on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back=20 in the 1200/300 baud days! However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? > They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. > > You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need > the right software driver. > > That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards > are getting hard to find now. > > -tony > > > >> Bill >> >> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I >>> have no clue why I have them. >>> >>> Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. >>> >>> CZ >>> --===============0298945729893855875==-- From spacewar@gmail.com Sun Oct 30 05:21:24 2022 From: Eric Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2022 23:20:55 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5692054167407193539==" --===============5692054167407193539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 23:29 George Rachor via cctalk wrote: > I remember a bubble memory card being advertise for the Apple ][ but never > saw one. > > Were they ever made? > Yes. I have the Helix Labs card. --===============5692054167407193539==-- From pontus@dfupdate.se Sun Oct 30 06:46:00 2022 From: pontus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 07:39:04 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6969856635795150261==" --===============6969856635795150261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2022-10-18 00:40, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/17/2022 2:57 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made >>> the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was >>> cloned by the Soviets. >>> >>> I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite >>> poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. >>> Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned. >> >> I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the >> cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR >> via India who had no problems with violating their agreements >> with their allies. >> >> Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the >> VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country >> in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC. >> >> bill >> > In the mid 1980's I went to inspect a complete VAX 780 that had been > confiscated by the US Gov't and was to be auctioned off. This was in > the Wash DC area and the computer was configured for 50Hz power and > was destined for  South Africa.  Its true destination was somewhere > else, probably Russia.  It didn't make sense that the auction was open > to the public, but the equipment was export restricted. This was a fairly big deal in Sweden as one of the bad actors was a Swedish company and Swedish customs stopped the shipment. It was called something like ”container gate”. I haven’t found any english sources I’m afraid: https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containeraff%C3%A4ren /P --===============6969856635795150261==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Oct 30 10:35:15 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 11:34:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4191896542988722912==" --===============4191896542988722912== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 at 00:36, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Any use? http://www.oldversion.com/windows/daemon-tools/ I don't really use Windows any more here, so I haven't seen or tried this myself. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4191896542988722912==-- From toby@telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 14:30:33 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] [FS] Power Macs in Victoria, Australia - Apple Workgroup Server 9150 also 8100, 7100, 6200 Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 10:23:54 -0400 Message-ID: <619b1321-0cf0-7a61-4180-ea0c0f67cb80@telegraphics.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0962809974703683607==" --===============0962809974703683607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi list A relative is selling these Macs in Victoria, Australia: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204136123378 Hoping they can find a good home. --Toby PS. Sorry if posted twice, I am in the middle of changing my email address to toby -at- telegraphics dot net --===============0962809974703683607==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Oct 30 16:01:54 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 10:00:39 -0600 Message-ID: <48d42b8b-4734-94a0-a38a-9b1077b73174@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2409773354117083896==" --===============2409773354117083896== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/30/22 4:34 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Any use? > > http://www.oldversion.com/windows/daemon-tools/ I will give that a try. Thank you for the pointer. I'm also exchanging emails with DAEMON Tools support. They /are/ responding and /trying/ to help. Sadly XP is being problematic. > I don't really use Windows any more here, so I haven't seen or tried > this myself. My personal choice is to use Linux. My Year of the Linux Desktop was last century. Windows is relegated to the things that need to be done on Windows; an old game (Yoda Stories) from the '90s, a specific version of QuickBooks to appease my wife, things that don't have a Linux / macOS counterpart. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============2409773354117083896==-- From cube1@charter.net Sun Oct 30 16:22:18 2022 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 11:22:01 -0500 Message-ID: <3F38613C-03CC-4240-B118-4A38BA3C342A@charter.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9133912546509718612==" --===============9133912546509718612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an end of line is= not practical. Text editors in particular simply won=E2=80=99t work that way= . The UNIX shell wouldn=E2=80=99t work in that environment either. So this c= haracter by character interrupt is pretty standard. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThe performance of the DZ11 is not good. It did an interrupt for = every character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage r= eturn and then did a DNA, IIRC. >=20 > Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time. We used Able DMAXe= s on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back in the 1200= /300 baud days! >=20 > However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. >=20 > cheers, >=20 > Nigel >=20 > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 >=20 >=20 >> On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? >> They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >>=20 >> You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need >> the right software driver. >>=20 >> That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards >> are getting hard to find now. >>=20 >> -tony >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> Bill >>>=20 >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I >>>> have no clue why I have them. >>>>=20 >>>> Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. >>>>=20 >>>> CZ --===============9133912546509718612==-- From mbbrutman@brutman.com Sun Oct 30 16:22:36 2022 From: Michael Brutman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 09:22:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0163935456523007838==" --===============0163935456523007838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their abrupt closing wasn't that long ago. Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site has not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and in what capacity. I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be the same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would be difficult. -Mike (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...) --===============0163935456523007838==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Oct 30 16:34:47 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 12:34:29 -0400 Message-ID: <51163601-6892-4882-ACD2-3D350D727977@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7513546784985883409==" --===============7513546784985883409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 30, 2022, at 12:22 PM, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: >=20 > My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their abrupt > closing wasn't that long ago. >=20 > Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site has > not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it > would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and in > what capacity. Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not simply be s= crapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be interested in parts of it. = I'm one of them... paul --===============7513546784985883409==-- From roycetaft@gmail.com Sun Oct 30 17:16:33 2022 From: Royce Taft To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 10:16:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6980253605203723852==" --===============6980253605203723852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That=E2=80=99s really disappointing to hear. I only discovered that museum fo= r myself via their website a couple of years ago and had no idea that it clos= ed. I had planned on visiting next time my wife and I travel to Seattle.=20 I hope that they are able to reopen.=20 Royce Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFMy apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their= abrupt > closing wasn't that long ago. >=20 > Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site has > not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it > would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and in > what capacity. >=20 > I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be the > same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still > believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would be > difficult. >=20 >=20 > -Mike >=20 > (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...) --===============6980253605203723852==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Oct 30 18:49:24 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 18:49:08 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3F38613C-03CC-4240-B118-4A38BA3C342A@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7223475198483631814==" --===============7223475198483631814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The difference between dz and dh interfaces is that the dh used dma instead o= f interrupts to get characters to the cpu. It would be transparent to any sof= tware. I did a write up on them 40 years ago justifying the replacement of a dz with= dh saying that decreasing interrupts would increase performance on my VAX 78= 0. It did, but just a bit. To make a big difference, you=E2=80=99d have to ha= ve a LOT of people banging away on serial terminals and rs-232 connected pri= nters. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFFor an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an end= of line is not practical. Text editors in particular simply won=E2=80=99t wo= rk that way. The UNIX shell wouldn=E2=80=99t work in that environment either.= So this character by character interrupt is pretty standard. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFThe performance of the DZ11 is not good. It did an interrupt for= every character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage = return and then did a DNA, IIRC. >>=20 >> Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time. We used Able DMAX= es on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back in the 120= 0/300 baud days! >>=20 >> However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. >>=20 >> cheers, >>=20 >> Nigel >>=20 >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacin= g? >>> They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >>>=20 >>> You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need >>> the right software driver. >>>=20 >>> That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards >>> are getting hard to find now. >>>=20 >>> -tony >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Bill >>>>=20 >>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I >>>>> have no clue why I have them. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. >>>>>=20 >>>>> CZ >=20 --===============7223475198483631814==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sun Oct 30 18:58:53 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 14:58:36 -0400 Message-ID: <6382d85b-cbf5-2a96-bbf8-97d888a1ba1a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181E137C2A1178418B61FE1E4349=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1485559753968135427==" --===============1485559753968135427== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and typing long sentences to take advantage of the NPR burst after the=20 initial interrupt! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-30 14:49, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > The difference between dz and dh interfaces is that the dh used dma instead= of interrupts to get characters to the cpu. It would be transparent to any s= oftware. > I did a write up on them 40 years ago justifying the replacement of a dz wi= th dh saying that decreasing interrupts would increase performance on my VAX = 780. It did, but just a bit. To make a big difference, you=E2=80=99d have to = have a LOT of people banging away on serial terminals and rs-232 connected p= rinters. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk = wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFFor an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an en= d of line is not practical. Text editors in particular simply won=E2=80=99t w= ork that way. The UNIX shell wouldn=E2=80=99t work in that environment either= . So this character by character interrupt is pretty standard. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> =EF=BB=BFThe performance of the DZ11 is not good. It did an interrupt fo= r every character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage= return and then did a DNA, IIRC. >>> >>> Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time. We used Able DMA= Xes on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back in the 12= 00/300 baud days! >>> >>> However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Nigel >>> >>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>> Skype: TILBURY2591 >>> >>> >>>> On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfaci= ng? >>>> They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >>>> >>>> You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need >>>> the right software driver. >>>> >>>> That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards >>>> are getting hard to find now. >>>> >>>> -tony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And= I >>>>>> have no clue why I have them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. >>>>>> >>>>>> CZ --===============1485559753968135427==-- From toby@telegraphics.net Sun Oct 30 19:46:49 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] [FS] Power Macs in Victoria, Australia - Apple Workgroup Server 9150 also 8100, 7100, 6200 Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 09:49:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4192471641600364064==" --===============4192471641600364064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi list A relative is selling these Macs in Victoria, Australia: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204136123378 Hoping they can find a good home. --Toby --===============4192471641600364064==-- From george.rachor@gmail.com Sun Oct 30 19:47:02 2022 From: George Rachor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 10:26:27 -0700 Message-ID: <1C97B45D-0A4E-4218-B2F8-3CCE98F2C4BD@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4779240540148666468==" --===============4779240540148666468== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Super... George Sent from my iPhone george(a)rachors.com > On Oct 29, 2022, at 10:21 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 23:29 George Rachor via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> I remember a bubble memory card being advertise for the Apple ][ but never >> saw one. >>=20 >> Were they ever made? >>=20 >=20 > Yes. I have the Helix Labs card. --===============4779240540148666468==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 31 00:20:25 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 20:20:05 -0400 Message-ID: <7b78eb2a-b5c6-cdc6-8dc7-1645d78aef3e@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <6382d85b-cbf5-2a96-bbf8-97d888a1ba1a@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7439167051245807937==" --===============7439167051245807937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, for incoming traffic DHV11's had things like pretty deep buffers, I wonder if it was smart enough to see a bunch of characters coming in then buffer them for a single DMA hit on the CPU. Maybe if a character came in and nothing else it could do an interrupt but usually things were chatty enough that it probably was able to batch the inputs into a single DMA transfer. The real value of DMA was in output (you could sent a whole chunk of data back in one shot) and of course file transfers and the like. A DZ11 would pound the CPU into snot with endless interrupts and each character out had to be done as well. The reason I have so many is because I believe these were used with a COMM-IO-P system. This was a Dec custom thing that would use an on-board processor to poll a bunch of DZ11's and format the data nicely for the CPU. I think the DZ11's were polled as opposed to interrupted so it could handle a lot of well formatted traffic. The really fun stuff is that I found the manuals for the Associated Computer Consultants (ACC) IF-11/3780 modules. These are interesting: They are a full length Unibus card that can handle 2 serial lines. However the card has Z80 CPUs and other stuff to handle the full 2780/3780 communications for up to 2 different IBM mainframes. ASCII-EBCDIC: Yep, it did this. Space Compression/Expansion? Yep. Vertical and Horozontal format control? Sure! Automatic retransmission and error correction BISYNC protocol with proper blocking and block checks. Yep, that too... Beast of a card, I think that one of them was also able to be a full X.25 PAD. On 10/30/2022 2:58 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > and typing long sentences to take advantage of the NPR burst after the > initial interrupt! > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:  TILBURY2591 > > > On 2022-10-30 14:49, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> The difference between dz and dh interfaces is that the dh used dma >> instead of interrupts to get characters to the cpu. It would be >> transparent to any software. >> I did a write up on them 40 years ago justifying the replacement of a >> dz with dh saying that decreasing interrupts would increase >> performance on my VAX 780. It did, but just a bit. To make a big >> difference, you’d have to have a LOT of people banging away on serial >> terminals and  rs-232 connected printers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> For an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an end >>> of line is not practical. Text editors in particular simply won’t >>> work that way. The UNIX shell wouldn’t work in that environment >>> either.  So this character by character interrupt is pretty standard. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The performance of the DZ11 is not good.  It did an interrupt for >>>> every character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a >>>> carriage return and then did a DNA, IIRC. >>>> >>>> Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time.  We used >>>> Able DMAXes on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that >>>> was back in the 1200/300 baud days! >>>> >>>> However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> >>>> Nigel >>>> >>>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>>> Skype:  TILBURY2591 >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk >>>>>>   wrote: >>>>>> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial >>>>>> interfacing? >>>>> They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >>>>> >>>>> You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need >>>>> the right software driver. >>>>> >>>>> That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards >>>>> are getting hard to find now. >>>>> >>>>> -tony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via >>>>>> cctalk >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port >>>>>>> interfaces. And I >>>>>>> have no clue why I have them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CZ --===============7439167051245807937==-- From mjkerpan@kerpan.com Mon Oct 31 03:36:28 2022 From: Michael Kerpan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 23:35:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7061820996849237756==" --===============7061820996849237756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The museum had been one of Paul Allen's private passion projects. Sadly, he died rather unexpectedly and he hadn't really had time to set up a proper legal entity to protect it after his death, so it and all his other passion projects ended up controlled by his wife's real estate company which started looking at ways of shutting them down almost immediately. COVID gave them the perfect excuse, sadly. Mike On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 1:16 PM Royce Taft via cctalk wrote: > That’s really disappointing to hear. I only discovered that museum for > myself via their website a couple of years ago and had no idea that it > closed. I had planned on visiting next time my wife and I travel to > Seattle. > > I hope that they are able to reopen. > > Royce > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Michael Brutman via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their > abrupt > > closing wasn't that long ago. > > > > Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site > has > > not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it > > would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and > in > > what capacity. > > > > I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be > the > > same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still > > believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would be > > difficult. > > > > > > -Mike > > > > (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...) > --===============7061820996849237756==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Mon Oct 31 04:13:58 2022 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 05:13:41 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51163601-6892-4882-ACD2-3D350D727977@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4164351439878600975==" --===============4164351439878600975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not > simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be > interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse my donation then I have intention to have it back. So they have to stuff this paper into their files and maybe even be nice to donator. I have no idea how this seems from the side of the law - is it at all possible that donator can claim his donation back? If there is a good reason for this, of course. It was given to the museum, with purpose to have it exhibited or otherwise used by some group of people. If museum is being scrapped for good, then this purpose is not going to be fulfilled, so???... Or, if museum decided to give it to some artistic movement, which used it in their performances - say, peeing on olde computer, making it puff and throw sparks, under the slogans painted on the wall, claiming this very computer enabled certain pitiful aspects of western civilization (which I will not name, so as to not have attention of bots). How is that called in English law-speak, abuse of good faith? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============4164351439878600975==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Oct 31 04:51:11 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 21:50:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3371592402221678816==" --===============3371592402221678816== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tomasz, This is a very interesting and relevant question. To the extent that there is an implied and enforceable contract between donor and donee that a donation not be neglected or removed from public use, if a donated item were to actually be removed from public use, that would definitely be actionable in the courts. Whether one would prevail or not would depend on the competency of their argument. If the LCM is a non-profit corporation, their inventory of computers are considered public property, and therefore subject to specific rules for disposition. However, I believe (but could be wrong) that the LCM was a foundation of sorts, so the same rules wouldn't necessarily apply. Foundations are typically of a private nature, and so to the extent that the wishes of the donor are to be honored, they would have to be explicitly established. Otherwise, as a gift to the foundation, the foundation could then reasonably do with the property what it wished per its own needs or desires, irrespective of the considerations of the donor. I'm hoping Rich Alderson will pipe in and give us the actual story as to what's going on with the LCM and its collection, but there's a possibility that he may be legally constricted from giving comment at this time. Sellam On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 9:13 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > [...] > > > > Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not > > simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be > > interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... > > If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially > looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse > my donation then I have intention to have it back. > > So they have to stuff this paper into their files and maybe even be > nice to donator. > > I have no idea how this seems from the side of the law - is it at all > possible that donator can claim his donation back? If there is a good > reason for this, of course. It was given to the museum, with purpose > to have it exhibited or otherwise used by some group of people. If > museum is being scrapped for good, then this purpose is not going to > be fulfilled, so???... > > Or, if museum decided to give it to some artistic movement, which used > it in their performances - say, peeing on olde computer, making it puff > and throw sparks, under the slogans painted on the wall, claiming this > very computer enabled certain pitiful aspects of western civilization > (which I will not name, so as to not have attention of bots). > > How is that called in English law-speak, abuse of good faith? > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** > --===============3371592402221678816==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Mon Oct 31 05:50:36 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 05:50:07 +0000 Message-ID: <511686813.1048141.1667195407501@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5665552820258161878==" --===============5665552820258161878== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yea they are squatting on something SMECC museum would dearly love....=C2=A0E= d Sharpe - Archivist for SMECC Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 9:13 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via ccta= lk wrote: >=20 [...] >=20 > Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not > simply be scrapped.=C2=A0 I imagine a lot of people here would be > interested in parts of it.=C2=A0 I'm one of them... If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse my donation then I have intention to have it back. So they have to stuff this paper into their files and maybe even be nice to donator. I have no idea how this seems from the side of the law - is it at all possible that donator can claim his donation back? If there is a good reason for this, of course. It was given to the museum, with purpose to have it exhibited or otherwise used by some group of people. If museum is being scrapped for good, then this purpose is not going to be fulfilled, so???... Or, if museum decided to give it to some artistic movement, which used it in their performances - say, peeing on olde computer, making it puff and throw sparks, under the slogans painted on the wall, claiming this very computer enabled certain pitiful aspects of western civilization (which I will not name, so as to not have attention of bots). How is that called in English law-speak, abuse of good faith? --=20 Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 ** **=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ** ** Tomasz Rola=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot= .com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ** =20 --===============5665552820258161878==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Mon Oct 31 07:32:16 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 15:31:43 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6646640919585743509==" --===============6646640919585743509== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Internet is wonderful for misinformation and a good laugh. Here even Paul Allen's sister Jody can morph into Paul's wife. :-) Rich Alderson please provide the LCM facts if you can to stop the silly rumours. On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:36 AM Michael Kerpan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > The museum had been one of Paul Allen's private passion projects. Sadly, he > died rather unexpectedly and he hadn't really had time to set up a proper > legal entity to protect it after his death, so it and all his other passion > projects ended up controlled by his wife's real estate company which > started looking at ways of shutting them down almost immediately. COVID > gave them the perfect excuse, sadly. > > Mike > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 1:16 PM Royce Taft via cctalk > > wrote: > > > That’s really disappointing to hear. I only discovered that museum for > > myself via their website a couple of years ago and had no idea that it > > closed. I had planned on visiting next time my wife and I travel to > > Seattle. > > > > I hope that they are able to reopen. > > > > Royce > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Michael Brutman via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their > > abrupt > > > closing wasn't that long ago. > > > > > > Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site > > has > > > not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; > it > > > would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, > and > > in > > > what capacity. > > > > > > I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be > > the > > > same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still > > > believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would > be > > > difficult. > > > > > > > > > -Mike > > > > > > (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...) > > > --===============6646640919585743509==-- From BuiltByBushnell@Hotmail.com Mon Oct 31 07:48:33 2022 From: Bushie To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 00:48:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6220521658536380503==" --===============6220521658536380503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been recently been told, in person, by someone who works there that=20 they are actually remodeling and just getting ready to open. Of course,=20 I brought up the recently closures by Vulcan but this person assured me=20 that this wasn't the case for the LCM. On 10/30/2022 10:16 AM, Royce Taft via cctalk wrote: > That=E2=80=99s really disappointing to hear. I only discovered that museum = for myself via their website a couple of years ago and had no idea that it cl= osed. I had planned on visiting next time my wife and I travel to Seattle. > > I hope that they are able to reopen. > > Royce > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFMy apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Thei= r abrupt >> closing wasn't that long ago. >> >> Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site has >> not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it >> would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and in >> what capacity. >> >> I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be the >> same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still >> believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would be >> difficult. >> >> >> -Mike >> >> (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...) --===============6220521658536380503==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Oct 31 13:57:58 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 09:57:38 -0400 Message-ID: <5A7A5DDA-7989-460D-9AD8-1EFDDE987BB2@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4749379423066742187==" --===============4749379423066742187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 31, 2022, at 12:13 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 > [...] >>=20 >> Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not >> simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be >> interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... >=20 > If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially > looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse > my donation then I have intention to have it back. Unless you gave something to them with conditions, that's unlikely to work. = Normally, when you give a thing to another person, that person is free to do = with it what he wants. For example, if someone doesn't like a birthday prese= nt, he can throw it away, or give it to someone else, and you have nothing to= say about that. And on top of that, various courts that don't like paying attention to law an= d contract have in the past allowed museums to go against the explicit writte= n restrictions of gifts made to them. My conclusion from all that is: if you= want any chance of controlling what happens with your stuff, don't donate it= -- lend it instead on a long-term loan agreement. paul --===============4749379423066742187==-- From aperry@snowmoose.com Mon Oct 31 14:20:20 2022 From: Alan Perry To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 07:20:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5A7A5DDA-7989-460D-9AD8-1EFDDE987BB2@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8913604385013156610==" --===============8913604385013156610== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Oct 31, 2022, at 06:57, Paul Koning via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On Oct 31, 2022, at 12:13 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >> [...] >>>=20 >>> Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not >>> simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be >>> interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... >>=20 >> If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially >> looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse >> my donation then I have intention to have it back. >=20 > Unless you gave something to them with conditions, that's unlikely to work.= Normally, when you give a thing to another person, that person is free to d= o with it what he wants. For example, if someone doesn't like a birthday pre= sent, he can throw it away, or give it to someone else, and you have nothing = to say about that. >=20 > And on top of that, various courts that don't like paying attention to law = and contract have in the past allowed museums to go against the explicit writ= ten restrictions of gifts made to them. My conclusion from all that is: if y= ou want any chance of controlling what happens with your stuff, don't donate = it -- lend it instead on a long-term loan agreement. >=20 I donated a few items to LCM. I was told that they didn=E2=80=99t do long-ter= m loans when I brought that up on one item. The paperwork for the first item was minimal, basically just an acknowledgmen= t of receipt. The paperwork for the last item was more complicated and includ= ed an agreement that allowed them to do lots of things with the item that I w= asn=E2=80=99t comfortable with but that at the time I trusted them not to do = without good reason. alan=20 > paul >=20 >=20 --===============8913604385013156610==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 31 14:26:03 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 10:25:41 -0400 Message-ID: <58003496-9038-babf-65cd-2cba52b0fa94@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <5A7A5DDA-7989-460D-9AD8-1EFDDE987BB2@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6122592665003768493==" --===============6122592665003768493== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Unless you gave something to them with conditions, that's unlikely to work.= Normally, when you give a thing to another person, that person is free to d= o with it what he wants. For example, if someone doesn't like a birthday pre= sent, he can throw it away, or give it to someone else, and you have nothing = to say about that. There is a very nice note in the door panel of AI saying that if Paul=20 ever got bored of the system, tired of it, or just went broke that I=20 would come out there with a U-Haul and pick it up. Because that happened. Time and time again. MIT, FTP software,=20 Sandstorm, Digex, etc... All people who said to me "don't worry, we'll=20 give it a good home" then I'm called 6 months later to find it's on a=20 loading dock to the dumpster.... Part of the reason I ask any museum or collector who has one of the=20 three (AI, BLT, MC) to agree to that. Not so much because I want them=20 back, but because I was charged with them as a "sacred oath" or whatever. All that said, if I have to drive out to Seattle with a U-Haul I'll do=20 it. Again. But I would prefer them to be displayed, taken care of, loved. In the meantime the last ITS system sits in my storage shed. MC is a bit=20 lonely these days, and is a bit of a mess: When it blew up with a=20 massive system failure they took out the CPU core and scrapped the rest=20 of the chassis before I could get to it. However the CPU core box,=20 boards, Massbus, power supply, and chaosnet interface are still intact.=20 I've been pulling the parts together over the summer, many of the boards=20 were in a closet here at the house when I was using them to test AI and=20 the power supply was removed and stored in another closet. I think I=20 have everything accounted for, so maybe this winter I'll roll the=20 chassis box into my workshop for a good cleaning and photography session.... CZ >=20 > And on top of that, various courts that don't like paying attention to law = and contract have in the past allowed museums to go against the explicit writ= ten restrictions of gifts made to them. My conclusion from all that is: if y= ou want any chance of controlling what happens with your stuff, don't donate = it -- lend it instead on a long-term loan agreement. >=20 > paul >=20 >=20 --===============6122592665003768493==-- From lproven@gmail.com Mon Oct 31 15:24:43 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 16:24:14 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48d42b8b-4734-94a0-a38a-9b1077b73174@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3847527086452207264==" --===============3847527086452207264== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 at 17:01, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I will give that a try. > > Thank you for the pointer. I hope it helps. There seem to be multiple versions there. > I'm also exchanging emails with DAEMON Tools support. They /are/ > responding and /trying/ to help. Sadly XP is being problematic. Ah well. It's almost exactly 20Y since it came out. I dareasay that this was in the relatively early childhood of most people working in tech support in 2022. > My personal choice is to use Linux. My Year of the Linux Desktop was > last century. Same here. Well, my home desktop is a Mac, but work and laptops are all Linux. > Windows is relegated to the things that need to be done on Windows; an > old game (Yoda Stories) from the '90s, a specific version of QuickBooks > to appease my wife, things that don't have a Linux / macOS counterpart. OK, I can see that. I keep it around for occasionally rooting and reflashing smartphones and the like, and sometimes for firmware updates. That is mostly it now. Saying that, I did reinstall TinyXP on a Sony Vaio P last month and it's striking how much quicker than Windows Thin PC (the allegedly cut-down Win7) it is. I haven't got all my drivers and things working yet, though, and the Intel Poulsbo drivers seem to nix Windows' large fonts setting, and its tiny letterbox screen really needs that. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3847527086452207264==-- From lars@nocrew.org Mon Oct 31 16:14:16 2022 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 16:14:00 +0000 Message-ID: <7wzgdc2con.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <58003496-9038-babf-65cd-2cba52b0fa94@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1835426002659470426==" --===============1835426002659470426== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Zach wrote: > All that said, if I have to drive out to Seattle with a U-Haul I'll do > it. Again. But I would prefer them to be displayed, taken care of, > loved. AI is available right now from here: ssh its(a)tty.livingcomputers.org It's running under the name LC ITS now, but it's the original AI KS10. --===============1835426002659470426==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 31 16:25:58 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 10:24:44 -0600 Message-ID: <5fe9b3fe-8270-3412-40cb-e35d533a23c7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8298355214610432158==" --===============8298355214610432158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/29/22 4:35 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Shortly after I posted this message, someone from DAEMON Tools / Disc-Soft responded to my support ticket and worked with me to get things resolved. I've got to say, the support that I received from DAEMON Tools / Disc-Soft was AMAZING! N.B. this was /weekend/ support / non-business-hours support. Not only did DT/DS locate a copy of an ancient version of DAEMON Tools Ultimate, they helped me get it installed on the equally ancient Windows XP SP3 system. DT/DS even helped me get TLS 1.1 & TLS 1.2 working on Windows XP SP3 /including/ *recent* root certificate updates. Aside: If anyone is interested in how to add TLS 1.1 & 1.2 and transplant root certificates from contemporary Windows back to XP, ask and I'll share. > I just purchased a lifetime license based on the documentation on their > site.  The problem is that they don't have 4.x available for download. So it turns out that the reason that the 4.x installer wasn't available via the DT/DS website is that it's the older licensing model which requires a serial number. Hence why they abandoned it because of anit-piracy concerns. > I just need the install files and I'll use my personal license. DT/DS dug up the old method used to create serial numbers and created one for me. Something that's not officially supported any more. I've got to say, the support that I received from DAEMON Tools / Disc-Soft was PHENOMENAL. To say that I am happy with my purchase is quite an understatement. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============8298355214610432158==-- From kevin_anderson_dbq@yahoo.com Mon Oct 31 17:38:32 2022 From: Kevin Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 17:38:14 +0000 Message-ID: <706229217.2607174.1667237894417@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <706229217.2607174.1667237894417.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3750425174985891196==" --===============3750425174985891196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The LCM has some of stuff (a Zenith Z150 PC computer, including monitor and a= n early paged memory expansion that I installed, a couple of Apple IIc comput= ers and monitors, a printer, but probably more important, a bunch of original= MS-DOS software diskettes and manuals from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s (i= ncluding several versions of MS-DOS, FORTRAN, MS Word for DOS, an early versi= on of Lotus-123, and other earlier software) that I used to complete my docto= ral degree and first start my college teaching position. But I understood at the time that Paul's LCM was actually "buying" my compute= r stuff, as they reached out to me in interest to acquire the entire lot of m= aterials (after I had emailed an availability list to this very same cctalk g= roup) and accepted the prices I requested without question as I recall, plus = I was reimbursed for all shipping costs. And so I interpreted the transaction= at the time that I no longer had rights (other than visitation rights should= I ever visited Seattle) to these items. I may be unclear in my understanding from the time, but at the same time none= of what the LCM received from me was so rare or unique as to my wanting to e= ver request it back again. I was thankful at the time that I had a place for= this computer stuff to go. I would be sad, however, if any of it might be no= w in a dumpster or landfill, or has been sold to someone else, and so I guess= I also don't want to hear that news either way. Kevin Anderson Dubuque, Iowa --===============3750425174985891196==-- From kevin_anderson_dbq@yahoo.com Mon Oct 31 18:02:22 2022 From: Kevin Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 18:02:01 +0000 Message-ID: <334501681.2607453.1667239321044@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <334501681.2607453.1667239321044.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1308492595159905310==" --===============1308492595159905310== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The LCM has some of stuff (a Zenith Z150 PC computer, including monitor and a= n early paged memory expansion that I installed, a couple of Apple IIc comput= ers and monitors, a printer, but probably more important, a bunch of original= MS-DOS software diskettes and manuals from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s (i= ncluding several versions of MS-DOS, FORTRAN, MS Word for DOS, an early versi= on of Lotus-123, and other earlier software) that I used to complete my docto= ral degree and first start my college teaching position. But I understood at the time that Paul's LCM was actually "buying" my compute= r stuff, as they reached out to me in interest to acquire the entire lot of m= aterials (after I had emailed an availability list to this very same cctalk g= roup) and accepted the prices I requested without question as I recall, plus = I was reimbursed for all shipping costs. And so I interpreted the transaction= at the time that I no longer had rights (other than visitation rights should= I ever visited Seattle) to these items. I may be unclear in my understanding from the time, but at the same time none= of what the LCM received from me was so rare or unique as to my wanting to e= ver request it back again. I was thankful at the time that I had a place for= this computer stuff to go. I would be sad, however, if any of it might be no= w in a dumpster or landfill, or has been sold to someone else, and so I guess= I also don't want to hear that news either way. Kevin Anderson Dubuque, Iowa --===============1308492595159905310==-- From mbbrutman@brutman.com Mon Oct 31 18:42:33 2022 From: Michael Brutman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 11:42:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CIA1PR19MB6155C384B57AF5EF11B530EBB5379=40IA1PR19MB?= =?utf-8?q?6155=2Enamprd19=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7063479894223381951==" --===============7063479894223381951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 12:48 AM Bushie via cctalk wrote: > I've been recently been told, in person, by someone who works there that > they are actually remodeling and just getting ready to open. Of course, > I brought up the recently closures by Vulcan but this person assured me > that this wasn't the case for the LCM. > Thank you, that was the kind of update I was looking for. Now I wish they'd be more vocal about communicating that! -Mike --===============7063479894223381951==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Mon Oct 31 23:31:50 2022 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:31:32 -0400 Message-ID: <4N1Ttr2P4mzfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4035560685605402529==" --===============4035560685605402529== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First, let me thank Sellam and Tom for inviting me to comment on this topic. LCM+L closed its doors to the public in March 2020, at the height of the initial pandemic (in the sense that it had become clear that the Covid-19 vir= us was not a passing thing), because our entire mission was to make possible actual physical contact between visitors to the museum and vintage computing engines of various stripe. There was no way to allow visitors to continue to touch all the hardware which would protect both visitors and the equipment. Tour guides and front desk personnel were immediately let go, because it was clear that it would be several months, up to a year, before we could open again. Professional museum staff (curator, educational coordinator, etc.) we= re retained for a short while, to wind things down. The engineers were put to work winding things down: Creating power-down-bring-up documentation, backing up software on those systems for which that was necessary, and generally maki= ng it possible to close up shop with an eye to opening again in a year (the targ= et period). This project was the response to the original order simply to turn everything off. We pointed out vociferously how much damage that would do to the dinosaurs, reminding the nontechnical powers-that-be of just how long it had taken to make most of the vintage hardware work again, and that they could pl= an on a month of restoration per month of down time, before the museum could be reopened after the decision was made to do so. All of the engineers, which the exception of the manager of the department, were laid off as of 1 July 2020. None of us was allowed to return to the museum at any future time, and no one associated with the mothballed museum w= as allowed to talk to any of us. All of that is by way of saying that I have no information on the internal state of the collection, or of the museum which we built on it. As for the status of the collection: While we built the museum, there was a private foundation set up which acquired items for the collection, generally = by purchase. After 5 years of successful operations, with year over year increases in visitor counts, ongoing relationships with several school districts for instructional field trips, and worldwide acclaim, the decision was to taken to move to a 501(c)(3) public charity. This transition was under way when Paul died suddenly; that placed things into limbo because the transition was incomplete, and the estate could not do things that he could have done in person. That's as much as I know. Rich Alderson P. S. After the layoff, I looked for work for a few months, with nary a nibble. I've officially been retired for tax purposes since September= 2021. --===============4035560685605402529==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Oct 31 23:56:14 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 16:47:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4N1Ttr2P4mzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1774082343914633481==" --===============1774082343914633481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/31/22 16:31, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > > That's as much as I know. I'm a bit curious if the Connection Museum managed to stay open during the Plague. Does anyone know? -- --Chuck --===============1774082343914633481==-- From js@cimmeri.com Tue Nov 1 00:07:14 2022 From: js@cimmeri.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 18:58:05 -0500 Message-ID: <6360610D.9070406@cimmeri.com> In-Reply-To: <4N1Ttr2P4mzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4825493295934181816==" --===============4825493295934181816== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/31/2022 6:31 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > ... > > LCM+L closed its doors to the public in March 2020... > > This project was the response to the original order simply to turn everythi= ng > off. We pointed out vociferously how much damage that would do to the > dinosaurs, reminding the nontechnical powers-that-be of just how long it had > taken to make most of the vintage hardware work again, and that they could = plan > on a month of restoration per month of down time... Rich, would you describe a little about why this would be? Why would a=20 shutdown (properly done) be so difficult to recover from? Thank you- -John Singleton --===============4825493295934181816==-- From mail@alderson.users.panix.com Tue Nov 1 15:00:06 2022 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:22:33 -0400 Message-ID: <4N1ThT4zSrzfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0235549049606082313==" --===============0235549049606082313== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 21:50:42 -0700 > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > I'm hoping Rich Alderson will pipe in and give us the actual story as to > what's going on with the LCM and its collection, but there's a possibility > that he may be legally constricted from giving comment at this time. > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 15:31:43 +0800 > From: Tom Hunter via cctalk > The Internet is wonderful for misinformation and a good laugh. > Here even Paul Allen's sister Jody can morph into Paul's wife. :-) Yeah, I was going to correct that ;-) > Rich Alderson please provide the LCM facts if you can to stop the silly > rumours. First, let me thank Sellam and Tom for inviting me to comment on this topic. LCM+L closed its doors to the public in March 2020, at the height of the initial pandemic (in the sense that it had become clear that the Covid-19 vir= us was not a passing thing), because our entire mission was to make possible actual physical contact between visitors to the museum and vintage computing engines of various stripe. There was no way to allow visitors to continue to touch all the hardware which would protect both visitors and the equipment. Tour guides and front desk personnel were immediately let go, because it was clear that it would be several months, up to a year, before we could open again. Professional museum staff (curator, educational coordinator, etc.) we= re retained for a short while, to wind things down. The engineers were put to work winding things down: Creating power-down-bring-up documentation, backing up software on those systems for which that was necessary, and generally maki= ng it possible to close up shop with an eye to opening again in a year (the targ= et period). This project was the response to the original order simply to turn everything off. We pointed out vociferously how much damage that would do to the dinosaurs, reminding the nontechnical powers-that-be of just how long it had taken to make most of the vintage hardware work again, and that they could pl= an on a month of restoration per month of down time, before the museum could be reopened after the decision was made to do so. All of the engineers, which the exception of the manager of the department, were laid off as of 1 July 2020. None of us was allowed to return to the museum at any future time, and no one associated with the mothballed museum w= as allowed to talk to any of us. All of that is by way of saying that I have no information on the internal state of the collection, or of the museum which we built on it. As for the status of the collection: While we built the museum, there was a private foundation set up which acquired items for the collection, generally = by purchase. After 5 years of successful operations, with year over year increases in visitor counts, ongoing relationships with several school districts for instructional field trips, and worldwide acclaim, the decision was to taken to move to a 501(c)(3) public charity. This transition was under way when Paul died suddenly; that placed things into limbo because the transition was incomplete, and the estate could not do things that he could have done in person. That's as much as I know. Rich Alderson --===============0235549049606082313==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Mon Feb 13 08:46:25 2023 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 06:32:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5b43f9df.608c7.183d12810cf.Webtop.82@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8815932462534147972==" --===============8815932462534147972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do understand that these are common film capacitor types. There is one mor= e smaller .10ufa RIFA branded capacitor hiding near the center of the PWB. =20 A couple reasons I'd like to have a circuit diagram is to know what the RIFA = capacitors purpose are. The other is, a couple of the electrolytic capacito= r are double covered with what appears to be rubbery heat shrink tubing, ther= efore I cannot read what their value are. =20 One of these two electrolytic capacitor appears to have a dried substance aro= und the top. The over-pressure venting cuts in the top of these two capacito= rs are not split. At this point I cannot tell if it is dried electrolyte, ce= ment to hold the sleeve on, or possibly paper. Looking at these two again, it definitely could be dried electrolyte. I have= seen it creep out and up into strange places. https://www.dropbox.com/s/18hzfdqe96vmgsr/electrolytics.jpg?dl=3D0 Seems someone was in hurry on the day this PS was tested. I cannot make out = date, is it 1983? https://www.dropbox.com/s/zlt2ocpqulil13j/pssticker.jpg?dl=3D0=20 What type are the diodes, their rating etc.? I seem to remember this type wi= th a black band were rated at 3 amps, but that's all I remember. The TO-3 transistor/regulator has no P/N silkscreened on it. Having a circuit diagram helps to cover many bases. Apparently it's an Astec= AA12070. Placed the PS board back in the garage to continue airing out! =F0=9F=98=89 Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Rice via cctalk =20 Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 4:43 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Joshua Rice Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... You shouldn't need a schematic. These thin film caps are a common failure mod= e on a multitude of PSUs. Just replace like for like. Thin film X and X2 rate= d caps are easily found from your favorite electronics part retailer. If it's gold and got RIFA on it, replace it, though. Just because it hasn't p= opped, doesn't mean it wont pop in the near future. I've learned now, to always check every PSU or other mains-powered vintage eq= uipment for these little stinkbombs. If they're present, i'll always replace. Cheers, Josh ------ Original Message ------ From: "D. Resor via cctalk" To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" Cc: "D. Resor" Sent: Thursday, 13 Oct, 2022 At 12:24 Subject: [cctalk] Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Where might I find a schematic diagram for the Xerox U07 8" FDD,HDD expansion= cabinet for the 820II, and/or the 105P80450 power supply? The Xerox Professional Computer Technical Reference Manual I downloaded from = bitsavers.org doesn't seem to have those particular schematic diagrams. For your enjoyment the part which smoked. https://www.dropbox.com/s/al9kx3yw9ypwp89/Xerox105p80450.jpg?dl=3D0 I certainly am glad I have the lid off while testing. Unfortunately these ca= pacitors which appear to be film type were hidden from view. The fuse didn't blow, but that .22uf 250v capacitor certainly stunk up the ho= use. It smelled like burnt popcorn, plastic and the bottom of a coffee pot w= hich has boiled dry, yech! I know that if I had pulled the power supply board first I might have seen th= e physical cracks in these boxed capacitors. Wasn't it Marc V. that said in one of his videos, you don't need to shotgun t= hem all! Oi, lol It's when things like this happen that I most always worry a= bout not going over vintage equipment fine tooth comb. Don Resor --===============8815932462534147972==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:25 2023 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:18:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAB0mLLr8U2tDs2Ci+UAvofkBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7790714464580223328==" --===============7790714464580223328== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If the PSU requires too much hacking, you may just want to replace with a mod= ern Mean-Well switcher or two. The Aztec supplies used in those Xerox enclosu= res are OK but nothing stellar. I recapped mine (it also showed signs of elec= trolytic leakage) and it did work so I kept it, but if it'd had issues I'd ha= ve junked it. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 09:32, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I do understand that these are common film capacitor types. There is one mo= re smaller .10ufa RIFA branded capacitor hiding near the center of the PWB. >=20 > A couple reasons I'd like to have a circuit diagram is to know what the RIF= A capacitors purpose are. The other is, a couple of the electrolytic capacito= r are double covered with what appears to be rubbery heat shrink tubing, ther= efore I cannot read what their value are. >=20 > One of these two electrolytic capacitor appears to have a dried substance a= round the top. The over-pressure venting cuts in the top of these two capacit= ors are not split. At this point I cannot tell if it is dried electrolyte, ce= ment to hold the sleeve on, or possibly paper. >=20 > Looking at these two again, it definitely could be dried electrolyte. I hav= e seen it creep out and up into strange places. >=20 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/18hzfdqe96vmgsr/electrolytics.jpg?dl=3D0 >=20 > Seems someone was in hurry on the day this PS was tested. I cannot make out= date, is it 1983? >=20 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zlt2ocpqulil13j/pssticker.jpg?dl=3D0 >=20 > What type are the diodes, their rating etc.? I seem to remember this type w= ith a black band were rated at 3 amps, but that's all I remember. >=20 > The TO-3 transistor/regulator has no P/N silkscreened on it. >=20 > Having a circuit diagram helps to cover many bases. Apparently it's an Aste= c AA12070. >=20 > Placed the PS board back in the garage to continue airing out! =F0=9F=98=89 >=20 > Don Resor >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Rice via cctalk cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 4:43 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > Cc: Joshua Rice rice43(a)btinternet.com >=20 > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... >=20 >=20 > You shouldn't need a schematic. These thin film caps are a common failure m= ode on a multitude of PSUs. Just replace like for like. Thin film X and X2 ra= ted caps are easily found from your favorite electronics part retailer. >=20 > If it's gold and got RIFA on it, replace it, though. Just because it hasn't= popped, doesn't mean it wont pop in the near future. >=20 > I've learned now, to always check every PSU or other mains-powered vintage = equipment for these little stinkbombs. If they're present, i'll always replac= e. >=20 > Cheers, Josh >=20 > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "D. Resor via cctalk" cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >=20 > Cc: "D. Resor" organlists1(a)sonic.net >=20 > Sent: Thursday, 13 Oct, 2022 At 12:24 > Subject: [cctalk] Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... > Where might I find a schematic diagram for the Xerox U07 8" FDD,HDD expansi= on cabinet for the 820II, and/or the 105P80450 power supply? > The Xerox Professional Computer Technical Reference Manual I downloaded fro= m bitsavers.org doesn't seem to have those particular schematic diagrams. > For your enjoyment the part which smoked. > https://www.dropbox.com/s/al9kx3yw9ypwp89/Xerox105p80450.jpg?dl=3D0 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/al9kx3yw9ypwp89/Xerox105p80450.jpg?dl=3D0 >=20 > I certainly am glad I have the lid off while testing. Unfortunately these c= apacitors which appear to be film type were hidden from view. > The fuse didn't blow, but that .22uf 250v capacitor certainly stunk up the = house. It smelled like burnt popcorn, plastic and the bottom of a coffee pot = which has boiled dry, yech! > I know that if I had pulled the power supply board first I might have seen = the physical cracks in these boxed capacitors. > Wasn't it Marc V. that said in one of his videos, you don't need to shotgun= them all! Oi, lol It's when things like this happen that I most always worry= about not going over vintage equipment fine tooth comb. > Don Resor >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============7790714464580223328==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Mon Feb 13 08:46:25 2023 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 06:09:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <96BC0830-143E-4FC6-9A22-9FACADCC3415@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6692450543963670587==" --===============6692450543963670587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Best I can tell the diodes are Passivated Silicon, Bead diodes, of which ther= e are three flavors. =20 https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/1073401/NJSEMI/A15A.html On EEVBlog it was suggested that these were Sintered Glass Bead diodes. =20 I do believe they are still in okay working condition. My thought process is= that they are probably quite noisy. Installing a modern type of diode would= also I believe dramatically reduce generation of heat. =20 It is nice that a Power Supply board is laid out in a way that you can access= all of the components. Nothing like some of the small 5v switching supplies= in which most of the components are shoved close together. =20 I downloaded the 1977 GE Semiconductor manual, but it=E2=80=99s not easy to f= ind it without a part number. =20 Back when I was in my early 20=E2=80=99s a neighbor whom was an Engineer at X= erox in the power supply division at 701 South Aviation Blvd. El Segundo, gav= e me a bundle of those soft bound Motorola reference manuals, some RCA TTL ma= nuals, Zener Diode reference etc. The books sat on my shelf for many years u= ntil I ran out of room. I moved them to my shed which at the time was safe f= rom the weather. After years of storage many of them were damaged from dampn= ess etc. =20 =20 In the last 10 years I realized I should have taken better care of them. I r= ealize they are almost worth their weight in gold. =20 =20 I was able to find a few of those books used and purchased them at (luckily) = reasonable prices. =20 I regret that and a home brew vacuum tube combo preamplifier/amplifier stereo= unit. I was forced to part with. My father referred to it as =E2=80=9Cjunk = taking up space=E2=80=9D. =20 It contained 4 6V6GTs, 2 12AU7As, and a 5U4 Rectifier. The front end was ear= ly GE (germanium I suppose) transistors. They were of the metal oval shaped = black painted metal can type with the pinched evacuation nipples. =20 =20 Don Resor =20 =20 =20 From: Joshua Rice =20 Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 9:44 AM To: D. Resor Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Xerox 820II U07 Power Supply magic smoke.... =20 =20 On Oct 13, 2022, at 2:32 PM, D. Resor > wrote: A couple reasons I'd like to have a circuit diagram is to know what the RIFA = capacitors purpose are. The other is, a couple of the electrolytic capacito= r are double covered with what appears to be rubbery heat shrink tubing, ther= efore I cannot read what their value are. =20 =20 Generally, though not always, these are simply =E2=80=9Ccoupling=E2=80=9D cap= acitors, that are used to limit RF interference from appearing on the mains s= upply. Most, though not all, PSUs will work fine without them. Some others wo= n=E2=80=99t function right as they=E2=80=99re used for generating clock signa= ls from the mains supply. I believe that some PDP-11 supplies use them for th= is purpose. =20 One of these two electrolytic capacitor appears to have a dried substance aro= und the top. The over-pressure venting cuts in the top of these two capacito= rs are not split. At this point I cannot tell if it is dried electrolyte, ce= ment to hold the sleeve on, or possibly paper. =20 Sometimes it=E2=80=99s just glue , but better safe than sorry, Cut off the sl= eeving (it=E2=80=99s used for electrically isolating the cap from other compo= nents), get the rating off of it, and replace with like. Probably worth heats= hrinking them again as well. Seems someone was in hurry on the day this PS was tested. I cannot make out = date, is it 1983? https://www= .dropbox.com/s/zlt2ocpqulil13j/pssticker.jpg?dl=3D0=20 =20 Looks like =E2=80=9885 What type are the diodes, their rating etc.? I seem to remember this type wi= th a black band were rated at 3 amps, but that's all I remember. The TO-3 transistor/regulator has no P/N silkscreened on it. Having a circuit diagram helps to cover many bases. Apparently it's an Astec= AA12070. =20 It=E2=80=99s unlikely that these would have failed. If they have, i would (as= another person suggested,) just replace the unit with a modern Meanwell supp= ly. At that point, it=E2=80=99s probably not worth the time and effort to rep= lace all the parts.=20 Placed the PS board back in the garage to continue airing out! =F0=9F=98=89 =20 Don=E2=80=99t fear the RIFA, but keep the windows open, just in case. =20 Josh. =20 --===============6692450543963670587==--