From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Sep 1 11:10:22 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 04:10:12 -0700 Message-ID: <5536284d-cda3-a3c4-0038-1a8ec74e9914@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3688965654406651742==" --===============3688965654406651742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) > It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other mailer diskettes writable.  Never did the double side thing much if ever. Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make coasters or trash them. thanks Jim --===============3688965654406651742==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Thu Sep 1 13:20:45 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 08:20:21 -0500 Message-ID: <98b76158-fadd-e9d7-fec2-83b6601f2f92@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <5536284d-cda3-a3c4-0038-1a8ec74e9914@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2927093252405153079==" --===============2927093252405153079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've never heard of anyone making 8" Flippy Diskettes. There were many "notchers" to make flippy 5 1/4" diskettes and even a drive or two that were designed to "flip" the disk. The problem with "flipping" as diskette is that both the write protect notch AND the index/sector hole had to be flipped. There were many singled sided single or double density 8" systems around that were at least loosely based on the IBM 3740 format. For example the DEC RX01/RX02 were single sided single density (RX01) or Singled Sides Double Density (RX02, double density data only). Due to the high cost of 8" Floppy Diskette subsystems back in those days, and the fact the 5 1/4" drives were so much less expensive I don't know how much of the hobbyist community had  8" floppy systems. On 9/1/2022 6:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in >> their garage. >> >> Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. >> >> Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. >> >> Was that even possible on 8" disks? >> >> (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I >> never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home >> computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives >> at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and >> cheapest media.) >> > It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. > The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other > mailer diskettes writable.  Never did the double side thing > much if ever. > > Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make > coasters or trash them. > thanks > Jim > --===============2927093252405153079==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Sep 1 13:23:34 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 13:23:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1968935574364535086==" --===============1968935574364535086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. =20 > Was that even possible on 8" disks? Sure, but you have to punch an offset index hole: https://imgur.com/a/6vdR6NE That's a single-sided flippy 8" diskette (it's also hard-sector but that's no= t really relevant). 8" diskettes have different positions for the index senso= r window depending on whether it's single or double sided.In the above pictur= es, the rightmost hole is the original index window. If it were a factory dou= ble-sided diskette (for use in drives with two heads), that index window woul= d be further to the right. Thanks, Jonathan --===============1968935574364535086==-- From kgober@gmail.com Thu Sep 1 14:02:30 2022 From: Kenneth Gober To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 09:31:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3479470065681594086==" --===============3479470065681594086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:10 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side worked due to 2 factors: First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the diskette was flipped over. Second, on 5.25" diskettes the notch is a write-enable notch, and the absence of a notch (or a sticker covering it) was taken to mean that the diskette was write-protected. So the notch was required to make use of the other side unless you defeated the write protect sensor some other way. Typical 8" systems differed in that the index hole was commonly used, meaning that you needed to punch holes in the front and back of the jacket to allow the index sensor to work properly (and you had to do this without accidentally punching any extra holes in the media inside the jacket). But you didn't need to punch a 'write enable' notch to make use of the second side because on an 8" diskette the presence of a notch indicates the diskette is write-protected. If you want to write on an 8" diskette with a notch you need to cover the notch with a sticker. This is exactly the opposite of how the notch works on 5.25" diskettes. -ken --===============3479470065681594086==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Sep 1 14:36:37 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 10:36:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5536284d-cda3-a3c4-0038-1a8ec74e9914@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7335007934995210716==" --===============7335007934995210716== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Are they IBM preformatted? If so they could work in someone's RX01/RX02. C On 9/1/2022 7:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in >> their garage. >> >> Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. >> >> Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. >> >> Was that even possible on 8" disks? >> >> (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I >> never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home >> computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives >> at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and >> cheapest media.) >> > It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. > The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other > mailer diskettes writable.  Never did the double side thing > much if ever. > > Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make > coasters or trash them. > thanks > Jim > --===============7335007934995210716==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Thu Sep 1 15:01:25 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 15:01:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1321904594114961292==" --===============1321904594114961292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > BTW, the greaseweazle can format RX01 format diskettes quite nicely. Any PC that can do single-density can (with ImageDisk or similar), as well as= basically all CP/M boxes with 8" drives. That's how I format new RX01 media.= RX01 can of course be up-converted to RX02 format with XXDP. Thanks, Jonathan --===============1321904594114961292==-- From Flash688@flying-disk.com Thu Sep 1 15:12:23 2022 From: Alan Frisbie To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 08:12:14 -0700 Message-ID: <67a6250b-2c9f-facb-ce41-871a21fc69f6@flying-disk.com> In-Reply-To: <166204094759.2127582.11983323005617239008@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3214256140966255195==" --===============3214256140966255195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jim stephens wrote: > Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make > coasters or trash them. My wife and our neighbor use them as reflectors to scare birds away from her garden. We finally ran out of the AOL CDs and are now working on my backlog of MSDN CDs. I keep them stacked on a 1/2" wooden dowel, and still have a roughly 4' high stack. That should last us for a few years. Alan Frisbie --===============3214256140966255195==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 1 15:13:59 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 08:12:46 -0700 Message-ID: <962657e4-ba53-7b79-8cba-d1288028f7cb@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7618122340169299079==" --===============7618122340169299079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) 8" "Flippies" were manufactured pretty early on in the 1970s. I have several of them--they have a label on each side and two index apertures in the jacket. If anyone's curious, I can post a photo of one (imgur or the like) --Chuck --===============7618122340169299079==-- From pete@dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 1 16:58:14 2022 From: Pete Turnbull To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 17:39:02 +0100 Message-ID: <322c303d-54a8-9c99-2264-e5f83ab650da@dunnington.plus.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5684773229937560812==" --===============5684773229937560812== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side > worked due to 2 factors: > > First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it > didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the > diskette was flipped over. It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on pretty much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. -- Pete Pete Turnbull --===============5684773229937560812==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Thu Sep 1 16:59:19 2022 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 12:02:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98b76158-fadd-e9d7-fec2-83b6601f2f92@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5068673818183088893==" --===============5068673818183088893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Sep 01, 2022 at 08:20:21AM -0500, Mike Katz wrote: > I've never heard of anyone making 8" Flippy Diskettes. > I did it in high school. Poor job with a hand punch but worked. I also have a box of 3M disks that are officially flippy. They came punched to be able to use both sides. Label says SS, SD, R. --===============5068673818183088893==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu Sep 1 17:09:01 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 10:08:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <322c303d-54a8-9c99-2264-e5f83ab650da@dunnington.plus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9147344711998440198==" --===============9147344711998440198== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: >> On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side >> worked due to 2 factors: >> >> First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it >> didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the >> diskette was flipped over. > > It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on pretty > much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. Commodore drives didn't use it either. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============9147344711998440198==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Sep 1 17:10:42 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 13:10:32 -0400 Message-ID: <77499456-F266-4B05-93CC-9FF9D0C06A6B@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <322c303d-54a8-9c99-2264-e5f83ab650da@dunnington.plus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4285701606875106767==" --===============4285701606875106767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And commodore 154x drives. On September 1, 2022 12:39:02 PM EDT, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: >> On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side >> worked due to 2 factors: >>=20 >> First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it >> didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the >> diskette was flipped over. > >It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on pretty m= uch all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. > >--=20 >Pete >Pete Turnbull --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. --===============4285701606875106767==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 1 17:22:12 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 09:44:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <962657e4-ba53-7b79-8cba-d1288028f7cb@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8609211846077763214==" --===============8609211846077763214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a photo of a stock Memorex 8" "flippy". Un-modified--this is the way they were sold. --Chuck https://i.imgur.com/3VnrazS.jpg --===============8609211846077763214==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Thu Sep 1 18:29:24 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 11:23:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7979657849697242753==" --===============7979657849697242753== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is because, like Apple ][ drives, they used GCR encoding and looked for sync bytes on the disk rather than implementing additional hardware to look for the index hole. Sellam On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > > On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > >> On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side > >> worked due to 2 factors: > >> > >> First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it > >> didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the > >> diskette was flipped over. > > > > It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on > pretty > > much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. > > Commodore drives didn't use it either. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > --===============7979657849697242753==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Sep 1 20:27:20 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 13:27:10 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7377848481540036817==" --===============7377848481540036817== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > Was that even possible on 8" disks? Both 5.25" and 8" disks have a "cookie" that is coated on both sides ("single sided" disks only gurantee the quality of one side) BUT, it defintiely won't be a NOTCH! The children of the "bar napkin disk" (a well refuted origin myth) age were accustomed to being able to punch an extra WRITE-ENABLE notch in 5.25" diskettes to flip them over for Apple and Commodore, as the write enable notch was the only disk non-symmetry for THOSE machines. Other 5.25" machines, such as TRS80, hard sectored machines, 5150, etc. ALSO needed index holes punched in the jacket to complete their symmetry. ("Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" for marking the location was my first retail porduct; "PLUS" model also aligned center hole reinforcers). 8" disks used a Write PROTECT notch. adding a notch was to PREVENT them being writeable! SO, no notch punching required for flipping them. So, the FB kids should definitely punch a notch to keep them out of trouble :-) BUT, depending on the DRIVE, additional index holes may (or may NOT!) be needed. Single sided 8" drives could flip disks if the disk jackets were punched with symmetrical index holes. ("EIGHT INCH Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" (very rare) could mark those locations) Double sided 8" had the index hole in a different location than the Single sided disks! Single sided 8" disks could be converted into double sided 8" disks by adding index holes in the correct locations. ("EIGHT INCH Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" (very rare) could mark those locations) But, some double sided drives had TWO index hole sensors (light and photocell). THOSE drives could use single OR double sided disks! WITHOUT any extra holes! (and might be CONFUSED by a disk that had both SS and DS holes) OB_IRRELEVANT: On the "Computer Bowl" quiz show, Bill Gates' team was unable to answer a question of "WHERE is the write enable notch on an 8" disk?" !! Kids. keep 'em offa my lawn! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7377848481540036817==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Sep 1 22:52:47 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 15:52:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1265188239100103651==" --===============1265188239100103651== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. About 3 decades ago, my assistant (Bob Fink) came up with an advertising campaign for XenoCopy of "Save your data from extinction!" As part of that, for our Comdex and Computer Faire booths, he got a 5 foot inflatable toy Tyrannasaurus Rex, and had it holding an 8" disk, with a bite out of it. (The disk already had damage). At the Computer Faire (San Francisco), a small kid (6 to 10 years old?) came up to him and loudly declared, "That's not real!" Bob replied, "Well, of course not, it's just an inflatable toy. They won't let us bring any real dinosaurs into the exhibit hall." "Not that. There aren't any disks that size." Bob tried to explain. (No, he did not mention bar napkins :-) "Yeah. right." That kid is probably on Facebook, and still might not believe in 8" disks.. As to "flipping" those disks, . . . there are probably a lot of people who would buy an unopened box of 8" SSSD. The ones that I took to VCF a decade ago, sold fast. What brand are they? (Dysan is preferred over Wabash :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1265188239100103651==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Sep 1 23:01:45 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 16:01:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67a6250b-2c9f-facb-ce41-871a21fc69f6@flying-disk.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3638194240615343295==" --===============3638194240615343295== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make >> coasters or trash them. On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > My wife and our neighbor use them as reflectors to scare birds away from > her garden. We finally ran out of the AOL CDs and are now working on my > backlog of MSDN CDs. I keep them stacked on a 1/2" wooden dowel, and > still have a roughly 4' high stack. That should last us for a few years. I made a pizza cutter out of one. It worked about as well as a pizza cutter as AOHell worked for online access. No idea what to do with the stacks of others. --===============3638194240615343295==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Sep 1 23:27:55 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 16:27:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3750589467391088717==" --===============3750589467391088717== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > This is because, like Apple ][ drives, they used GCR encoding and looked > for sync bytes on the disk rather than implementing additional hardware to > look for the index hole. > Sellam Well, it's not really just the GCR that does that. On the IBM/WD style FM/MFM formats (calling them "IBM format" creates lots of confusion for people who don't know about anything before the IBM PC/5150, and think that "IBM format" means "PC format"), the index hole is used to mark where the track starts, and is necessary for formatting. Once the disk is formatted, reading and writing can be done without it. IF'n you were to format a disk without it (indexing off of the spindle, or custom formatting software that starts a track wherever it happens to be, such as the AppleII (which also used GCR instead of FM/MFM)), then the disk would still be mostly usable. The index hole/pulse is also used by some drives, to tell whether the disk is turning, and or has turned too many times without a successful read, . . . And, the NEC 765 type controllers can't read ANYTHING for a short time after the index pulse ("flash blindness") SOME computers using WD MFM controllers start the first sector too soon after the index pulse for the 765 controllers to handle. Masking the index pulse (in the cable, board, or write-protect tab over the index hole access hole) can sometimes work around that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3750589467391088717==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 2 00:28:43 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 17:28:30 -0700 Message-ID: <0900f8d8-ae2f-302c-c73c-4cbadff24295@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3448942048953951409==" --===============3448942048953951409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sitting here with a customer's 8" floppy in front of me. The manufacturer's label is simply "Diskette" on both front and back with the usual "Diskette No." legend and "Side 1" or "Side 2" respectively. The curious thing is that this disk is not only a "flippy", but has a *third* index aperture punched for double-sided applications. The holes are accurately placed without any sign of being post-purchase additions. Call it a transitional example. Memorex started off by calling theirs "Flexible Disc" (note the spelling). A bit later Memorex used the "Markette" labeling before giving in with the crowd and calling them "Diskettes" and "Disks". --Chuck --===============3448942048953951409==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 2 00:45:22 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 17:45:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0900f8d8-ae2f-302c-c73c-4cbadff24295@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3564984820010766284==" --===============3564984820010766284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'm sitting here with a customer's 8" floppy in front of me. The > manufacturer's label is simply "Diskette" on both front and back with > the usual "Diskette No." legend and "Side 1" or "Side 2" respectively. > The curious thing is that this disk is not only a "flippy", but has a > *third* index aperture punched for double-sided applications. The > holes are accurately placed without any sign of being post-purchase > additions. > Call it a transitional example. How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, DS, or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could read SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index pulses with this disk!) > Memorex started off by calling theirs "Flexible Disc" (note the > spelling). A bit later Memorex used the "Markette" labeling before > giving in with the crowd and calling them "Diskettes" and "Disks". Didn't HP continue to say "disc"? MOST switched to "disk". HOWEVER, the strong influence of Philips on compact disc meant that CD and DVD became "disc". When I was publishing my Honda book, I had some battles with the publisher's editor about whether Honda had "disc brakes" or "disk brakes". (also battles about Oxford comma (they claimed that that was archaic!), and whether to say, "till", "til", "'til", or "until". (the comma after "'til" is the "Oxford comma")) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3564984820010766284==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 2 01:10:26 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 18:10:15 -0700 Message-ID: <6bb8db92-e117-d8fc-816b-b7bd09253519@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3380287619538871825==" --===============3380287619538871825== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/1/22 17:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, > DS, or SS flippy?  Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? > (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could > read SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index > pulses with this disk!) I think I was using a Qume 842 to read the disk and it turned out to be double-sided, so there was no problem reading it. The disk itself probably arrived here 30 years ago, so my memory may be faulty. This isn't the first floppy I've seen with both SS and DS holes, however. I recall that using a write-enable sticky over the appropriate index aperture resolved the problem of side-edness. --Chuck --===============3380287619538871825==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 2 01:59:55 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 18:59:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <84ccefcd-a0d7-a6de-2df9-6f6692e6f7a4@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6739319916394709686==" --===============6739319916394709686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/1/22 18:43, Mike Katz wrote: > Taking my memory back to the early 1980's and the Western Digital floppy > disk controller chip family (177X single density and 179X double > density).  I wrote the 6809 drivers for Gimix Flex.  The controller chip > used the index pulse for sector zero position and for timing out a > failed read or write command.  I don't recall if that controller chip > family could handle hard sectoring (one hole per sector) or not. All WD and NEC floppy controllers use the index hole for formatting as Fred mentioned. Further, I believe that three passes of the index hole while attempting to read or write gets you "Sector not found" if the address ID isn't detected. See datasheet and app notes for details. No WD or NEC floppy controller handles hard-sectored recording schemes. HOWEVER: A few years back, I was sent a bunch of 8" HS disks that were really puzzling--the sector ID address headers didn't line up with the sector hole timing. In fact, they were WAY off. It turns out that some 8" drives can be set to separate the sector holes from the index hole (separate output pins for index and sector). Doing so, gives you what amounts to a soft-sectored floppy, regardless of what the physical object is. I know that I used a Siemens FDD-200 drive jumpered accordingly to read them. Good times. --Chuck --===============6739319916394709686==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 2 02:22:32 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 19:22:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3582261739121528269==" --===============3582261739121528269== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > On 9/1/22 18:43, Mike Katz wrote: >> Taking my memory back to the early 1980's and the Western Digital floppy >> disk controller chip family (177X single density and 179X double >> density).  I wrote the 6809 drivers for Gimix Flex.  The controller chip >> used the index pulse for sector zero position and for timing out a >> failed read or write command.  I don't recall if that controller chip >> family could handle hard sectoring (one hole per sector) or not. On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > All WD and NEC floppy controllers use the index hole for formatting as > Fred mentioned. Further, I believe that three passes of the index hole > while attempting to read or write gets you "Sector not found" if the > address ID isn't detected. See datasheet and app notes for details. OB_Obscure stuff: At least some of the Teac 5.25" FD55-x series drives ALSO used the index pulse for determining "drive ready". If you mask off the index hole with a write protect tab, then those drives will give DRIVE NOT READY. So, on THOSE drives, masking off index pulse (for disks (such as come Cromemco) with first sector too soon after index, etc.) should be done by interrupting that pin of the cable, or modifying the FDC controller board. (ANY masking of the index pulse will "corrupt" the FDC's guesses of what an error is) On a bet, . . . we noticed that the Central Point Option Board software could not work without index pulse. You CAN modify a drive to index off of the spindle, without an index hole. FLIP a hard sectored floppy, and format it with indexing off of the spindle. THAT disk can now be read and/or written. But, the Central Point board software can't handle it. Punching an index hole access hole in that flippy won't help, because the disk is hard sectored. Thus, a disk whose content canbe copied with COPY or DISKCOPY, but not with the Option Board (with supplied software). > No WD or NEC floppy controller handles hard-sectored recording schemes. But, how about a WD TRACK READ with the index pulse masked? > HOWEVER: > > A few years back, I was sent a bunch of 8" HS disks that were really > puzzling--the sector ID address headers didn't line up with the sector > hole timing. In fact, they were WAY off. > > It turns out that some 8" drives can be set to separate the sector holes > from the index hole (separate output pins for index and sector). Doing > so, gives you what amounts to a soft-sectored floppy, regardless of what > the physical object is. I know that I used a Siemens FDD-200 drive > jumpered accordingly to read them. > > Good times. > --Chuck COOL! --===============3582261739121528269==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Fri Sep 2 03:03:30 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 03:03:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4734577157911750740==" --===============4734577157911750740== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It turns out that some 8" drives can be set to separate the sector holes > from the index hole (separate output pins for index and sector). Doing > so, gives you what amounts to a soft-sectored floppy, regardless of what > the physical object is.=20 The flippy 8" diskette I linked a picture of this morning was written that wa= y. Took me a little time to figure out. Part of a massive lot of diskettes al= l done like that. I'm guessing the original owner either worked for Varityper= at some point, or knew someone who did, and was able to acquire a huge quant= ity of hard sector diskettes cheaply. > I know that I used a Siemens FDD-200 drive jumpered accordingly to read the= m. Shugart SA-801 (or 800 with the LSI chip and 801 jumper closed) will also do = it! Thanks, Jonathan --===============4734577157911750740==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 2 03:11:46 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 20:11:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0279509909348418384==" --===============0279509909348418384== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/1/22 19:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, how about a WD TRACK READ with the index pulse masked? Well, okay, but I never found that to be very useful, because to achieve correct byte alignment, you need one of the standard address marks to get the data separator working right, which few HS recording schemes employ. That's not to say that it can't be done, but it's a lot of trouble, particularly for MFM encoding. There's also the dodge on PCs of using two drives--one with a standard formatted soft-sector floppy to start a "read track with a very large sector length code" operation and changing the drive select to the second drive while the read's in progress. The "Read Track" feature is useful for recovering data from regular soft-sectored IBM System/3 or 3740-type floppies, however. All in all, a cheap MCU is easier--and cheaper, I think. Consider a little STM32F405 MicroPython board--it runs at 168MHz, timers that can capture pulses at 84 MHz and has about 192KB of fast SRAM inside. Cost is around $11-15 and includes MicroSD and USB interfaces. Similarly, you can get an Option Board working on index-less or hard-sectored floppies by using a cheap MCU to either generate or mask index pulses. You can even use the same MCU to simulate index pulses for equipment requiring hard-sectored floppies. A little 8-pin <$1 MCU is more than adequate for the job. Silicon has gotten so cheap! --Chuck --===============0279509909348418384==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Sep 2 04:56:18 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 19:23:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2041774190719154600==" --===============2041774190719154600== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 5:45 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, DS, > or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? > (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could read > SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index pulses with > this disk!) > The typical response from the manufacturer is to first blame the user, and if that's ruled out, blame the hardware (or vice versa). If both issues are ruled out, they theny hang up the phone or disconnect the chat, and let the user call back only to receive another tech who will repeat the process. When I was publishing my Honda book, I had some battles with the > publisher's editor about whether Honda had "disc brakes" or "disk brakes". > (also battles about Oxford comma (they claimed that that was archaic!), > and whether to say, "till", "til", "'til", or "until". (the comma after > "'til" is the "Oxford comma")) > The "Oxford comma" is basically optional in modern writing, but in some specific cases it makes sense to use it for clarity. However, in law (specifically contracts) it's imperative. I can't remember the specific case, but within the last couple of years I remember reading about one where the lack of the comma meant the court agreed with the workers over the company and ruled they were entitled to overtime pay. Sellam --===============2041774190719154600==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 2 05:16:01 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 22:15:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4084778297022393105==" --===============4084778297022393105== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, DS, >> or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? >> (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could read >> SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index pulses with >> this disk!) On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The typical response from the manufacturer is to first blame the user, and > if that's ruled out, blame the hardware (or vice versa). If both issues > are ruled out, they theny hang up the phone or disconnect the chat, and let > the user call back only to receive another tech who will repeat the > process. Well, I was speculating about possible engineering solutions, rather than assignment of blame :-) Tech support can handle THAT. Obviously, it can be left to the user to mask off any extraneous index holes. Usually, the OS has its own ways to identify what's there, such as a "MEDIA ID BYTE" or a data structure (DPB) at a fixed location that will be accessible disunirregardless of which format it is. Another way is obviously to do a read from first side. Current approach is sorta for the OS to check any return codes from the FDC, and display a message from a table. If it falls through the decision tree, then say "GENERAL FAILURE" (top brass in 'Nam?) But, the OS can try a read of the second side. If the first side seems readable but the second side isn't, then assume SS. Try an FM read; try an MFM read; try a read at each data transfer rate. When you achieve success, assume that that's the format. > When I was publishing my Honda book, I had some battles with the >> publisher's editor about whether Honda had "disc brakes" or "disk brakes". >> (also battles about Oxford comma (they claimed that that was archaic!), >> and whether to say, "till", "til", "'til", or "until". (the comma after >> "'til" is the "Oxford comma")) > > The "Oxford comma" is basically optional in modern writing, but in some > specific cases it makes sense to use it for clarity. However, in law > (specifically contracts) it's imperative. I can't remember the specific > case, but within the last couple of years I remember reading about one > where the lack of the comma meant the court agreed with the workers over > the company and ruled they were entitled to overtime pay. There are some situations where it is critical for unambiguity. More often than not, the Oxford comma reduces ambiguity. I USE IT. But, it is possible to come up with some [relatively rare] examples where it increases ambiguity. The publisher's editor had an impressive ability to read a passage, and come up with a wrong interpretation of it. THAT was very useful, since once I could rewrite so that he was UNABLE to misinterpret, I could be reasonably confident that the reader couldn't. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4084778297022393105==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 08:37:44 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 09:37:33 +0100 Message-ID: <13abd3ae.2b1a9.182fd5924b0.Webtop.90@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4422474917088688419==" --===============4422474917088688419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------ Original Message ------ From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" To: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" Cc: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Friday, 2 Sep, 2022 At 01:45 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Didn't HP continue to say "disc"? MOST switched to "disk". HOWEVER, the strong influence of Philips on compact disc meant that CD and DVD became "disc". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com This is no way a standardised thing. But generally i call a "disc" in a case (of some sort) a "disk", IE hard drives, floppy disks, CD's in caddies. And a bare media as a "disc" Josh --===============4422474917088688419==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Sep 2 13:51:59 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 8" disk question! Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 06:51:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6685909346254031921==" --===============6685909346254031921== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the discussion around 8" disks reminded me about a question I've not been able to find an answer to. I've got a Qumetrak 842 drive that I use for imaging 8" disks with either ImageDisk or AppleSauce. When I first tried it out with AS, the listed RPM was > 7K. It turns out that the disk I was working with was a NOS Dysan that had both the single and double-sided index windows punched in the jacket. The 842 has both of those index sensors, so both were being triggered one after the other. The solution was to cover one of the index windows on the disk. The question I have is how did a contemporary system deal with the combination of a disk with both index windows and a drive with both index sensors? tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6685909346254031921==-- From djg@pdp8online.com Fri Sep 2 14:15:54 2022 From: David Gesswein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Stuff available in England Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 10:15:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8555402329477828887==" --===============8555402329477828887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got this message and in wrong country. They said ok to post to lists where local people might be able to pick up. I have 19 rolls of teletype asr 33 paper, and 24 rolls of tape white 1 inch, and various brochures for PDP 8 TSS, and PDP 11 Infos.and 1 box of 2000 sheets of paper fan fold. I am currently in Fareham Hampshire, but will soon be on my way to Germany in a few days. Please let me know. They would prefer one person takes all. andrew_baust(a)hotmail.com Pictures here http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/supplies/ --===============8555402329477828887==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Fri Sep 2 14:33:22 2022 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Stuff available in England Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 14:27:59 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7703174208734325176==" --===============7703174208734325176== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew / David, I'm in Dorset and could collect anytime from this evening (Fri 2 Sep 22) on t= hrough the w/e The 1" tape is of particular use to me (punches to feed), the DEC brochures I= would also value, the other consumables I would redistribute for you (via Cl= assicCmp) Best Regards Martin -----Original Message----- From: David Gesswein via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 02 September 2022 15:16 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: David Gesswein Subject: [cctalk] Stuff available in England I got this message and in wrong country. They said ok to post to lists where = local people might be able to pick up. I have 19 rolls of teletype asr 33 paper, and 24 rolls of tape white 1 inch, and various brochures for PDP 8 TSS, and PDP 11 Infos.and 1 box of 2000 sheets of paper fan fold. I am currently in Fareham Hampshire, but will soon be on my way to Germany in a few days. Please let me know. They would prefer one person takes all. andrew_baust(a)hotmail.com Pictures here http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/supplies/ --===============7703174208734325176==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 2 15:35:24 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 08:35:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8418658880992733731==" --===============8418658880992733731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2 Sep 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote: > All the discussion around 8" disks reminded me about a question I've not be= en=20 > able to find an answer to. > I've got a Qumetrak 842 drive that I use for imaging 8" disks with either=20 > ImageDisk or AppleSauce. When I first tried it out with AS, the listed RPM= =20 > was > 7K. well, 720, not 7K > It turns out that the disk I was working with was a NOS Dysan that=20 > had both the single and double-sided index windows punched in the jacket.=20 > The 842 has both of those index sensors, so both were being triggered one=20 > after the other. The solution was to cover one of the index windows on the= =20 > disk. > > The question I have is how did a contemporary system deal with the=20 > combination of a disk with both index windows and a drive with both index=20 > sensors? THAT is why I asked: > > > How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is=20 > > > SS, DS, or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the=20 > > > host FDC? > > > (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could > > > read SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index > > > pulses with this disk!) and Chuck replied: > > I think I was using a Qume 842 to read the disk and it turned out to=20 > > be double-sided, so there was no problem reading it. The disk itself > > probably arrived here 30 years ago, so my memory may be faulty. > > This isn't the first floppy I've seen with both SS and DS holes, > > however. I recall that using a write-enable sticky over the=20 > > appropriate index aperture resolved the problem of side-edness. Obviously, it can be left to the user to mask off any extraneous index hole(s). And a more sophisticated engineering solution was not provided. Junpers to separately disable each index sensor with an open case, or=20 brought out to accessible switches would be a "RIGHT" way to handle it. For reading and writing (not formatting) with a WD controller, you might=20 not even notice a problem. But, with a 765 type controller, the long "flash blindness" (which will=20 happen twice per revolution), means some sectors are likely to be=20 inaccessible. Once you know whether the disk is SS or DS, then you should mask the=20 extraneous hole. If you are FORMATTING, then YOU know whether you are SS or DS, and know=20 which hole to mask. I used right protect tabs, but made sure their adhesive was in good shape! I was also glad that they changed the write protect/enable notch location. My first used 8" drive came with a handful of write enable tabs in the=20 back of the drive. Obviously, Bill Gates' "Computer Bowl" team were=20 people who had had OTHER people open the case and fish out the tabs that=20 had fallen off, or never had to re-enable write on a disk. What never? no never. What never? Well, hardly ever. (cf. "H.M.S. Pinafore", Gilbert & Sullivan) The 5.25" location was more prone to friction knocking them off, but=20 easier to get to. And, I had a folded business card handy that I could=20 wrap over the notch and carefully slide in with the diskette for a=20 temporary protect. (and drive(s) dedicated to disk analysis jumpered to=20 disable write enable) SA455 had a simple jumper to reverse write=20 enable/protect sensing (software distribution went out on no-notch 5.25"=20 disks) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8418658880992733731==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Fri Sep 2 16:05:56 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 09:05:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6940828468581112877==" --===============6940828468581112877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2 Sep 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 2 Sep 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> All the discussion around 8" disks reminded me about a question I've not=20 >> been able to find an answer to. >> I've got a Qumetrak 842 drive that I use for imaging 8" disks with either = >> ImageDisk or AppleSauce. When I first tried it out with AS, the listed RP= M=20 >> was > 7K. > > well, 720, not 7K > No, it was actually some absurdly huge number. It has something to do=20 with how the AS hardware & software was working out the RPM of the drive. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6940828468581112877==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 2 16:09:24 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 09:09:09 -0700 Message-ID: <78650689-23ad-f9b0-4545-c53079f79d41@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2896941794126739503==" --===============2896941794126739503== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The discussion about 8" write enable tabs reminds me of a box of Imation disks that I have here. I was asked to make a few copies for a customer and was absolutely stymied when the target disks kept showing up as write-protected. It turned out that the Imation-provided tabs are made of a translucent red-colored plastic with the appropriate sticky coating. Evidently, the tabs aren't sufficiently opaque for the write-enable optical sensors on my Siemens drives. Replacing the tabs with ordinary foil tabs solved the problem. --Chuck --===============2896941794126739503==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Sep 2 16:15:39 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 11:15:24 -0500 Message-ID: <1822195344.1043116.1662135324912@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5805640032518241485==" --===============5805640032518241485== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/02/2022 11:05 AM CDT geneb via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Fri, 2 Sep 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > > well, 720, not 7K > No, it was actually some absurdly huge number. It has something to do > with how the AS hardware & software was working out the RPM of the drive. >=20 > g. My "guess" would be measuring/counting the time between index pulses and sinc= e it got to measure it twice in one revolution, the time between them was, sa= y, 1/16th or so the normal time. Will You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way. Marvin Minsky --===============5805640032518241485==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 2 17:33:15 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 17:33:08 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8990549198260312088==" --===============8990549198260312088== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Sept 2022 at 16:36, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Are they IBM preformatted? If so they could work in someone's RX01/RX02. Doesn't say so on the box. Thanks for all the info and clarification, folks! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8990549198260312088==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Fri Sep 2 18:16:18 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Floppy Disk Drive Controller History Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 11:15:48 -0700 Message-ID: <007e01d8bef8$07733ff0$1659bfd0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4259042801919121027==" --===============4259042801919121027== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I’m working on an update to Wikipedia on floppy disk drive controllers – there is a nice section on WD but nothing on Intel/NEC Anyone know the history of how the NEC µPD765 and the Intel 8272 became compatible devices? AFAICT it was IBM's August 1981 adoption of the NEC µPD765 in the PC that drove the industry to standardize on the device. The earliest dates I can find for the two devices are: Jan 1981 8272 listed in Intel catalog (not in 1979 catalog) 1979 µPD765 listed in NEC catalog Dec 1978 µPD765 Data Sheet As described in the 1978 data sheet the NEC device was 8-inch FD compatible and of course the PC used 5¼-inch drives but I suspect the differences could be worked around It may well be that they were compatible in previous versions (µPD372 and 8271) Any recollections and links would be appreciated Tom --===============4259042801919121027==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 2 18:59:51 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy Disk Drive Controller History Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 11:59:37 -0700 Message-ID: <6dcf01f5-0bff-7ba0-527e-e76499358723@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <007e01d8bef8$07733ff0$1659bfd0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2702781451147133456==" --===============2702781451147133456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/2/22 11:15, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > I=E2=80=99m working on an update to Wikipedia on floppy disk drive controll= ers =E2=80=93 > there is a nice section on WD but nothing on Intel/NEC >=20 >=20 > Anyone know the history of how the NEC =C2=B5PD765 and the Intel 8272 became > compatible devices? >=20 The 8272/=C2=B5PD765 as well as the graphics controllers (=C2=B5PD7220: Intel 82720) were the result of a cross-licensing deal between NEC and Intel. Both were essentially NEC designs. The 765 is described in detail in the 1980 NEC catalog: http://blog.kevtris.org/blogfiles/Handhelds/Datasheets/1980%20NEC%20Catalog%2= 0c20120827%20%5B419%5D.pdf The 7220 came a bit later. The Intel FDC that preceded the 8272, the 8271 was single-density only and doesn't resemble the 8272 at all. It's obvious from the abovementioned NEC catalog that the extent of licensing peripheral chips from Intel was pretty broad. The whole affair continued peacefully until the V20, where Intel sued NEC for pirating the 8086 microcode, which is an interesting read all by itself. --Chuck --===============2702781451147133456==-- From david@kdbarto.org Fri Sep 2 19:03:51 2022 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 19:03:46 +0000 Message-ID: <62F3DD30-D01D-4C64-B052-28D7E25B1AA0@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: <5536284d-cda3-a3c4-0038-1a8ec74e9914@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3342777903758342625==" --===============3342777903758342625== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 1, 2022, at 4:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in >> their garage. >>=20 >> Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. >>=20 >> Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. >>=20 >> Was that even possible on 8" disks? >>=20 >> (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I >> never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home >> computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives >> at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and >> cheapest media.) >>=20 > It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. > The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other > mailer diskettes writable. Never did the double side thing > much if ever. >=20 > Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make > coasters or trash them. > thanks > Jim >=20 If you have a SS/SD drive then yes, punching a notch in the sleeve would allow you to flip the disk over and use the other side. I=E2=80=99ve do= ne this in the (very) distant past. Most drives these days are DS and can R/W the SD disks without issue, so I wouldn=E2=80=99t expect it to be necessary. David --===============3342777903758342625==-- From silent700@gmail.com Fri Sep 2 19:09:34 2022 From: Jason T To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 19:09:28 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3973820825550319070==" --===============3973820825550319070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello vintage computing fans across the country and around the globe (that's right - we're international!) The 17th Vintage Computer Festival Midwest is coming up in just two weeks! The hotel is sold out (months ago!), the tables are all booked (and then some!), now all we need is YOU! View over 80 exhibits and vendors, witness more talks than we've ever had before and observe in person the Fabulous VCFMW Auction! And the show is FREE, to boot! All you need to do to participate and receive the full benefit of retrocomputing in the Midwest is...show up. Find out more at vcfmw.org! [September 10-11, 2022 in Elmhurst, IL, right outside of Chicago] --===============3973820825550319070==-- From silent700@gmail.com Fri Sep 2 20:18:29 2022 From: Jason T To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Next Week: VCF Midwest! Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 20:18:23 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5415595568888171117==" --===============5415595568888171117== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello vintage computing fans across the country and around the globe (that's right - we're international!) The 17th Vintage Computer Festival Midwest is coming up in just two weeks! The hotel is sold out (months ago!), the tables are all booked (and then some!), now all we need is YOU! View over 80 exhibits and vendors, witness more talks than we've ever had before and observe in person the Fabulous VCFMW Auction! And the show is FREE, to boot! All you need to do to participate and receive the full benefit of retrocomputing in the Midwest is...show up. Find out more at vcfmw.org! [September 10-11, 2022 in Elmhurst, IL, right outside of Chicago] --===============5415595568888171117==-- From pete@pski.net Fri Sep 2 20:27:02 2022 From: Peter Cetinski To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 20:26:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0764549033209008500==" --===============0764549033209008500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For a flippy 8=E2=80=9D disk you don=E2=80=99t need to punch a notch as the w= rite control is opposite of the 5.25. No notch is read-write. You will need = to punch a new index hole in both sides of the jacket though. Pete > On Sep 1, 2022, at 4:10 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFSomeone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies= in > their garage. >=20 > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. >=20 > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. >=20 > Was that even possible on 8" disks? >=20 > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) >=20 > --=20 > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-= 053 --===============0764549033209008500==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 2 21:08:46 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 14:08:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <62F3DD30-D01D-4C64-B052-28D7E25B1AA0@kdbarto.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3595444692449324763==" --===============3595444692449324763== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > If you have a SS/SD drive then yes, punching a notch in the sleeve > would allow you to flip the disk over and use the other side. I’ve done > this in the (very) distant past. > Most drives these days are DS and can R/W the SD disks without > issue, so I wouldn’t expect it to be necessary. Not quite. There were TWO issues. 1) many companies distributing pre-written disks for distributing software did so on "No-Notch" disks that DID NOT HAVE a write enable notch! (They used a modified drive to do so (such as jumper on 455 drive). That was a disk with content that "can't be altered". I once had a customer complain that the disk that I sent him "HAS A VIRUS!". When I got it back from him, I found that he had punched a write enable notch. But, I also got in touch with the customer with the disk written prior to his, and the customer with the disk following his, and confirmed that neither of those had a virus, and still were no-notch disks. That solidified my decision to use no-notch disks! Even if there is a mass mailing of such disks, they can't be written and repurposed for other use without a modified drive, or punching a write enable notch. The notch doesn't have to be square, so any old hole punch, or Swiss Army Knife scissors, can be used. 2) If you have a SS disk, and a SS drive (SD, DD, HD, GCR are IRRELEVANT), and want to use the OTHER side of the disk (a "flippy"), then you will need a symmetrical second write enable notch. AND, if you use a system that uses the index pulse (MOST systems other than Apple and Commodore) , then you will ALSO need to add symmetrical index hole access holes. TRS80 was SS SD. PC/5150 was SS DD., until PC-DOS 1.10/MS-DOS 1.25, when it went to DS DD. (The "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip Jig" was for marking the positions for those holes.) On 8" disks/drives, write enable is by covering over the write protect notch, if somebody has punched one. But, as Chuck mentioned, that needs to be with TRULY opaque tape. And, if anybody from Bill Gates' "Computer Bowl" team is here, that write enable notch was on the leading (first into the drive) edge of the disk. If it is a SS disk, and a SS drive, then you will need to add symmetric index hole access holes. If it is a SS disk, and a DS drive that does not also have SS index hole sensors, then you will need to add DS index hole access holes. (The "Eight Inch Berkeley Microcomputer Flip Jig" was for marking EITHER set of index hole access holes) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3595444692449324763==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri Sep 2 21:17:43 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2022 21:17:36 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2863674896975097777==" --===============2863674896975097777== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Flipping disks to use both sides in a single-side drive was really only feasible in Commodore and similar drives that did not rely on an index hole for locating the data on the disk; the notch was to allow writing to the disk and had to be added on the opposite edge. To use a flipped 5 1/4" disk in any other drive requires punching holes for the index sensor in the opposite location, as well as the write (un)protect notch; this can be tricky and it's easy to damage the actual 'cookie' unless you remove it first. All 8" drives use an index hole and also require punching corresponding index holes but, as Jonathan points out, it's a little more complicated because the original location of the hole is different depending on whether the disk is single- or double-sided . On the other hand, you don't have to add a notch on an 8" drive unless you want to write-protect it; the notch acts the reverse of the 5 1/4" notch, i.e. notch=3Dprotect, no notch=3Dwrite enabled. Finally, there's the issue of the medium itself; if you're flipping single-sided disks the early 8" disks are more likely to have flaws on the unused side than the later 5 1/4" diskettes. m On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:10 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 > --===============2863674896975097777==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sat Sep 3 09:07:58 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy Disk Drive Controller History Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 02:07:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6dcf01f5-0bff-7ba0-527e-e76499358723@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6106231622080637364==" --===============6106231622080637364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/2/22 11:59, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/2/22 11:15, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> I=E2=80=99m working on an update to Wikipedia on floppy disk drive control= lers =E2=80=93 >> there is a nice section on WD but nothing on Intel/NEC >> >> >> Anyone know the history of how the NEC =C2=B5PD765 and the Intel 8272 beca= me >> compatible devices? >> > The 8272/=C2=B5PD765 as well as the graphics controllers (=C2=B5PD7220: In= tel > 82720) were the result of a cross-licensing deal between NEC and Intel. > Both were essentially NEC designs. The 765 is described in detail in > the 1980 NEC catalog: > > http://blog.kevtris.org/blogfiles/Handhelds/Datasheets/1980%20NEC%20Catalog= %20c20120827%20%5B419%5D.pdf > > The 7220 came a bit later. The Intel FDC that preceded the 8272, the > 8271 was single-density only and doesn't resemble the 8272 at all. > > It's obvious from the abovementioned NEC catalog that the extent of > licensing peripheral chips from Intel was pretty broad. The whole > affair continued peacefully until the V20, where Intel sued NEC for > pirating the 8086 microcode, which is an interesting read all by itself. > > --Chuck I hope you get information on Don Tarbell's work included.=C2=A0 He had an=20 early single density controller.=C2=A0 Then later a high (double) density=20 controller. He of course had huge success with his tape reader design, and was=20 following his interests in storage. I wish I had good references if they aren't already on Wiki or=20 elsewhere, only my recollections.=C2=A0 I knew him and his manufacturing=20 friend, Don Culbertson, who did a lot of his manufacturing.=C2=A0 But don't=20 have anything up to wiki requirements for citation. thanks Jim --===============6106231622080637364==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Sep 3 15:47:36 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy Disk Drive Controller History Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 08:47:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7173528646775047769==" --===============7173528646775047769== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/3/22 02:07, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I hope you get information on Don Tarbell's work included.  He had an > early single density controller.  Then later a high (double) density > controller. I purchased Don's SD controller way back when--and assembled it myself. I still have it, and his manual. I got it to replace the 2-board IMSAI controller that used an NEC 8080A. That board was far from reliable. Don's controller used the WD1771, so I don't know what that has to do with Intel and NEC. --Chuck --===============7173528646775047769==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Sat Sep 3 18:47:25 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy Disk Drive Controller History Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 11:46:54 -0700 Message-ID: <002401d8bfc5$8aa1c630$9fe55290$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4809580374478744414==" --===============4809580374478744414== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WD was first and its line of FDCs with compatible suppliers competed with NEC= /INTEL's line, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Digital_FD1771=20 =20 The IBM PC's usage of the uPD765 gave prominence to the NEC/Intel line. =20 =20 At this point I can't really say which if either came to dominate the market = but in the end the function wound up in the "southbridge" and then pretty muc= h disappeared.=20 I suspect NEC/Intel might have won - the Microchip (SMSC) FDC37C78 was one of= the last if not last chip in production - it was a "Licensed CMOS 765B Flopp= y Disk Controller" and may have been in production as late as 2013 =20 There are lots of chips for sale on the Internet but they look to me to be sa= lvaged or surplus chips - does anyone know of chips in current production? Was Microchip/SMSC the last (Microchip acquired SMSC in 2012)? Some other late chips with dates from documents: * Toshiba TC8569AF 1989? * Hynix GM82C765B * Intel 82078 1996? =20 Tom =20 -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist(a)sydex.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 8:47 AM To: jim stephens via cctalk Subject: [cctalk] Re: Floppy Disk Drive Controller History =20 On 9/3/22 02:07, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: =20 > I hope you get information on Don Tarbell's work included. He had an=20 > early single density controller. Then later a high (double) density=20 > controller. =20 I purchased Don's SD controller way back when--and assembled it myself. I still have it, and his manual. =20 I got it to replace the 2-board IMSAI controller that used an NEC 8080A. That board was far from reliable. =20 Don's controller used the WD1771, so I don't know what that has to do with In= tel and NEC. =20 --Chuck --===============4809580374478744414==-- From tosteve@yahoo.com Sat Sep 3 23:12:23 2022 From: steven stengel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 23:12:03 +0000 Message-ID: <523079377.3992045.1662246723018@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <523079377.3992045.1662246723018.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2332078341012138335==" --===============2332078341012138335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This seems like a good place to ask this question - I'd like an Apple Lisa 1 = "twiggy" system for my collection, and can trade a working IBM 5100 Portable = PC. We'd probably have to meet in person to make the transaction. I'm in So C= A. Thanks- Steven Stengel http://oldcomputers.net --===============2332078341012138335==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sat Sep 3 23:16:35 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 16:16:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <523079377.3992045.1662246723018@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3553643819154614858==" --===============3553643819154614858== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think there's a rather large disparity in value between the two systems. I'm not sure what an IBM 5100 would go for these days, but a Lisa 1 will generally sell in the $10K+ range minimum these days. I had two Lisa's with Twiggy drives: one I sold for $9,600, and the other for $14,500. That was over 8 years ago. Sellam On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 4:12 PM steven stengel via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > This seems like a good place to ask this question - I'd like an Apple Lisa > 1 "twiggy" system for my collection, and can trade a working IBM 5100 > Portable PC. We'd probably have to meet in person to make the transaction. > I'm in So CA. > Thanks- > Steven Stengel > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > --===============3553643819154614858==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 4 00:38:27 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:38:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4687592725157042240==" --===============4687592725157042240== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 3 Sep 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I think there's a rather large disparity in value between the two systems. > I'm not sure what an IBM 5100 would go for these days, but a Lisa 1 will > generally sell in the $10K+ range minimum these days. > I had two Lisa's with Twiggy drives: one I sold for $9,600, and the other > for $14,500. That was over 8 years ago. > Sellam Well, it ain't in the 5150/5160 range! The 5100 new was $10K to $20K. I haven't seen any available in a long time; although one sold on eBay in June for $10K. I had a standing offer for Jon Titor, that in exchange for a one-way ride back 60 years, I would get him a 5100 (with BASIC and APL), AND, set up a stock portfolio in the 1960s to fund his activities. --===============4687592725157042240==-- From jjacocks@mac.com Sun Sep 4 06:01:21 2022 From: jjacocks@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bringing up a Sun 386i: Can I use a modern monitor Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 05:54:33 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0722842605158227600==" --===============0722842605158227600== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Likely the RGB2HDMI board found here: https://github.com/hoglet67/RGBtoHDMI Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2022 5:10:41 PM To: CCTalk mailing list Cc: Chris Zach Subject: [cctalk] Bringing up a Sun 386i: Can I use a modern monitor Continuing my exploration of my old stuff pile I'm starting to work on my Sun 386i systems. Old, no doubt but still there. First step would be finding a monitor for them. The video cards I have are the monochrome one, the CGI3 and a CGI5 board. For the color monitors the cable I have goes to the RGBSync and of course to the keyboard/mouse combination. Question: Is there an adapter that can turn the Sun's output to HDMI or VGA for a more modern monitor? C --===============0722842605158227600==-- From mike.niswonger@cox.net Sun Sep 4 15:45:35 2022 From: Mike Niswonger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Bringing up a Sun 386i: Can I use a modern monitor Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 10:38:09 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM5PR07MB386778EA2D21F959D722C700F67C9=40DM5PR07MB?= =?utf-8?q?3867=2Enamprd07=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2001559941726126930==" --===============2001559941726126930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It it used the 13W3 D connector, I've used these (years ago) before with=20 success: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-100071-13W3-M-Video-Port-Adapter/dp/B007TZG5= 26 Actually, not the specific brand, just 13W3 to VGA adapters... =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike On 9/4/22 00:54, jjacocks--- via cctalk wrote: > Likely the RGB2HDMI board found here: > > https://github.com/hoglet67/RGBtoHDMI > > Get Outlook for Android > ________________________________ > From: Chris Zach via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2022 5:10:41 PM > To: CCTalk mailing list > Cc: Chris Zach > Subject: [cctalk] Bringing up a Sun 386i: Can I use a modern monitor > > Continuing my exploration of my old stuff pile I'm starting to work on > my Sun 386i systems. Old, no doubt but still there. > > First step would be finding a monitor for them. The video cards I have > are the monochrome one, the CGI3 and a CGI5 board. For the color > monitors the cable I have goes to the RGBSync and of course to the > keyboard/mouse combination. > > Question: Is there an adapter that can turn the Sun's output to HDMI or > VGA for a more modern monitor? > > C --===============2001559941726126930==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sun Sep 4 16:59:36 2022 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 16:58:55 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6993085271465232291==" --===============6993085271465232291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When punching holes in the envelope I've always had a piece of thin cardboard= between the back of the punch and the disk. I've never had a problem this wa= y. I damaged a disk once with the punch and the lesson was learned. You just cut the cardboard to slip conveniently in the center hole, between = the disk and the envelope. Dwight ________________________________ From: Mike Stein via cctalk Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2022 7:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Stein Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Flipping disks to use both sides in a single-side drive was really only feasible in Commodore and similar drives that did not rely on an index hole for locating the data on the disk; the notch was to allow writing to the disk and had to be added on the opposite edge. To use a flipped 5 1/4" disk in any other drive requires punching holes for the index sensor in the opposite location, as well as the write (un)protect notch; this can be tricky and it's easy to damage the actual 'cookie' unless you remove it first. All 8" drives use an index hole and also require punching corresponding index holes but, as Jonathan points out, it's a little more complicated because the original location of the hole is different depending on whether the disk is single- or double-sided . On the other hand, you don't have to add a notch on an 8" drive unless you want to write-protect it; the notch acts the reverse of the 5 1/4" notch, i.e. notch=3Dprotect, no notch=3Dwrite enabled. Finally, there's the issue of the medium itself; if you're flipping single-sided disks the early 8" disks are more likely to have flaws on the unused side than the later 5 1/4" diskettes. m On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:10 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 > --===============6993085271465232291==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 4 19:26:28 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 12:26:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSA1PR11MB69419B29F2534CD86FFCAF55A37C9=40SA1PR11MB?= =?utf-8?q?6941=2Enamprd11=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2091932763584649639==" --===============2091932763584649639== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 4 Sep 2022, dwight via cctalk wrote: > When punching holes in the envelope I've always had a piece of thin cardboa= rd between the back of the punch and the disk. I've never had a problem this = way. > I damaged a disk once with the punch and the lesson was learned. > You just cut the cardboard to slip conveniently in the center hole, betwee= n the disk and the envelope. > Dwight I found an ordinary handheld hole punch from stationery stores, that had a=20 piece of clear blue plastic covering the lower jaw, that caught any loose=20 Chad. I didn't damage any 5.25" nor 8" disks using that. But, obviously=20 I still could have. I supplied those with the Flip-Jig. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com OB_Irrelevant: "No matter how much you 'push the envelope', it's still=20 stationery." and "They hung Chad for messing with an election" --===============2091932763584649639==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sun Sep 4 23:28:02 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 18:20:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7546070670207572554==" --===============7546070670207572554== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/30/22 22:50, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Hello vintage computing fans across the country and around the globe > (that's right - we're international!) The 17th Vintage Computer > Festival Midwest is coming up in just two weeks! The hotel is sold out > (months ago!), the tables are all booked (and then some!), now all we > need is YOU! > I will be at the VCFMW both days.  I am bringing a bunch of stuff to sell.  I have a big box of Q-bus boards from my Micro-VAX II system.  I also have two ESDI disks that have VMS 4.7 on them, and an Emulex QD21 controller.  I'm hoping somebody at the Fest can image the disk that was last used. I also have a Nat Semi 16032 system that I cloned back about 1982.  This was built on the Multibus I bus.  Unfortunately I overwrote the disk with VMS when I set up my VAX. I also have a whole bunch of Nat Semi 16032 development boards from a multiprocessor project  (Multibus I). I also have a Multibus I ADC board from Data Translation. I also have a Nat Semi 8500 graphics demo board. And, not for sale, I will be showing a Honeywell Alert airborne CPU that was developed in 1965 for the X-15 project, to help get the pilot back to Edwards AFB with the right energy to land in one shot. It was the first all IC computer delivered.  (The Apollo Guidance Computer project started first, but due to the complex software, it was delivered a bit later.) Jon --===============7546070670207572554==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 05:00:43 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 22:00:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8207012538926106058==" --===============8207012538926106058== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/3/22 17:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Well, it ain't in the 5150/5160 range! > The 5100 new was $10K to $20K. I had a 5100 that a dentist had bought as soon as it  came out and he added the floppy drives and printer.  It was a direct IBM buy for 31000. thanks Also a fair amount of software. Jim --===============8207012538926106058==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Mon Sep 5 05:19:48 2022 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 22:19:29 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9fadcc4b-bc5a-65ac-0f5b-0d384972f898@bitsavers.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1907446640705060337==" --===============1907446640705060337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 10:18 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 9/21/21 9:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a = VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? > > Smaller. I have access to one to take pictures and dump the firmware Reviving a year old thread, did anyone get around to dumping the VAXstation 100 firmware? I don't see it where I looked here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vaxstation100/ http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/ --===============1907446640705060337==-- From jbglaw@lug-owl.de Mon Sep 5 07:34:04 2022 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 09:33:53 +0200 Message-ID: <20220905073353.72e7eswaxqm3efjz@lug-owl.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1689520092394548668==" --===============1689520092394548668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2022-09-04 22:19:29 -0700, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Reviving a year old thread, did anyone get around to dumping the > VAXstation 100 firmware? >=20 > I don't see it where I looked here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vaxstation100/ > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/ I don't have a VS100, so I cannot dump the ROMs. But if anybody has ROMs to read but no reading device, I'd offer to dump those. MfG, JBG --=20 --===============1689520092394548668==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Sep 5 09:11:40 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 11:11:24 +0200 Message-ID: <51303189-8869-548a-b3a9-7ae7df30f1d@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <98b76158-fadd-e9d7-fec2-83b6601f2f92@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2435342943501779154==" --===============2435342943501779154== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: > I've never heard of anyone making 8" Flippy Diskettes. BASF had the FlexyDisk 2N. They are intented for single-sided drives and can be flipped. They have two index hole cutouts. Christian --===============2435342943501779154==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Sep 5 13:57:06 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 15:56:49 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7207536933769569213==" --===============7207536933769569213== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 4 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: > On 9/3/22 17:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Well, it ain't in the 5150/5160 range! >> The 5100 new was $10K to $20K. > I had a 5100 that a dentist had bought as soon as it=C2=A0 came out and he = added=20 > the floppy drives and printer.=C2=A0 It was a direct IBM buy for 31000. Are you sure about that? The 5100 doesn't support floppy drives. And I've=20 never heard of third-party drives (that would need IMFs, too) for the=20 5100. Christian --===============7207536933769569213==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Sep 5 14:16:55 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 07:16:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3399817919871909678==" --===============3399817919871909678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Well, it ain't in the 5150/5160 range! >>> The 5100 new was $10K to $20K. > On Sun, 4 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: >> I had a 5100 that a dentist had bought as soon as it  came out and he >> added the floppy drives and printer.  It was a direct IBM buy for 31000. On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Are you sure about that? The 5100 doesn't support floppy drives. And I've > never heard of third-party drives (that would need IMFs, too) for the 5100. $3100 is about what IBM charged for a fully loaded 5150. (PC) THAT is not a 5100! $3100 for a 5100 would have been a bargain. A 5150 would not be worth as much as a Lisa. A 5100 would be. (or at least in a similar range) --===============3399817919871909678==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Sep 5 15:53:21 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 17:53:09 +0200 Message-ID: <848284b-69d2-3f7-eeb6-13b73391e7b3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8764886146042917407==" --===============8764886146042917407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Well, it ain't in the 5150/5160 range! >>>> The 5100 new was $10K to $20K. >> On Sun, 4 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: >>> I had a 5100 that a dentist had bought as soon as it  came out and he ^^^^ >>> added the floppy drives and printer.  It was a direct IBM buy for 31000. ^^^^^ > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> Are you sure about that? The 5100 doesn't support floppy drives. And I've >> never heard of third-party drives (that would need IMFs, too) for the 5100. > > $3100 is about what IBM charged for a fully loaded 5150. (PC) > THAT is not a 5100! $3100 for a 5100 would have been a bargain. We are neither talking about the 5150, nor about $3100 but $31,000 for a 5100 (see above). Or did I miss something? Christian --===============8764886146042917407==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Mon Sep 5 15:56:24 2022 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 10:56:14 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8668886919562881869==" --===============8668886919562881869== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Reviving a year old thread, did anyone get around to dumping the VAXstation= 100 firmware? =C2=A0 I gave my VAXstation 100 system unit to Dave McGuire last year (I=20 didn't need it since I lost interest in UNIBUS sized hobby equipment).=C2=A0 = Perhaps he could make a copy of its ROMs. --=20 Lee K. Gleason N5ZZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============8668886919562881869==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Sep 5 16:51:46 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 11:51:37 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0377667555171336298==" --===============0377667555171336298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/4/22 18:20, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I will be at the VCFMW both days.  I am bringing a bunch > of stuff to sell.  I have a big box of Q-bus boards from > my Micro-VAX II system.  I also have two ESDI disks that > have VMS 4.7 on them, and an Emulex QD21 controller.  I'm > hoping somebody at the Fest can image the disk that was > last used. UGH, I must have DREAMT I had the QD21 that I had used before on these disks.  I can't find it now, but I DID find a Dilog DQ696. I don't know if they use the same sector format. Jon --===============0377667555171336298==-- From lars@nocrew.org Mon Sep 5 17:29:57 2022 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 17:04:58 +0000 Message-ID: <7wzgfd92h1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7501440569491007821==" --===============7501440569491007821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee Gleason wrote: > I gave my VAXstation 100 system unit to Dave McGuire last year (I > didn't need it since I lost interest in UNIBUS sized hobby equipment). > Perhaps he could make a copy of its ROMs. Thanks! I asked, and he said he's willing to dump the ROM. --===============7501440569491007821==-- From stepleton@gmail.com Mon Sep 5 18:07:20 2022 From: Tom Stepleton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 19:07:01 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <166239720848.2127582.16312637297256809754@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1413066415310868505==" --===============1413066415310868505== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> Are you sure about that? The 5100 doesn't support floppy drives. And > I've > >> never heard of third-party drives (that would need IMFs, too) for the > 5100. > > > > $3100 is about what IBM charged for a fully loaded 5150. (PC) > > THAT is not a 5100! $3100 for a 5100 would have been a bargain. > > We are neither talking about the 5150, nor about $3100 but $31,000 for a > 5100 (see above). Or did I miss something? > There was a third-party floppy drive for the IBM 5100 :-) Or at least there as something that was sold in this way. Here is its brochure: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sykes/brochures/Sykes_Comm-Stor_5100_Brochure.pdf Note that it "plugs directly into the Serial I/O Adapter of the IBM 5100 with no hardware or software changes". So it's a serial-port connected floppy drive that talks to the 5100 in a format that it likes. (What is an IMF?) --Tom --===============1413066415310868505==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Sep 5 18:46:18 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 14:46:09 -0400 Message-ID: <6fbef6b1-71f9-4efe-2575-41d87840f621@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4864784496469787522==" --===============4864784496469787522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I tell you that they are not, will you think I am just trying to get the QD21 from you? I need one to replace the Sigma ESDI controller that failed, and no its format is not the same either. They also had a choice of hard vs soft sectoring.  I believe Emulex and Dilog handled the RCT differently on the disk too. Let me know if you are willing to part with the QD21. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-09-05 12:51, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 9/4/22 18:20, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> I will be at the VCFMW both days.  I am bringing a bunch of stuff to >> sell.  I have a big box of Q-bus boards from my Micro-VAX II system.  >> I also have two ESDI disks that have VMS 4.7 on them, and an Emulex >> QD21 controller.  I'm hoping somebody at the Fest can image the disk >> that was last used. > > UGH, I must have DREAMT I had the QD21 that I had used before on these > disks.  I can't find it now, but I DID find a Dilog DQ696. I don't > know if they use the same sector format. > > Jon > --===============4864784496469787522==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Sep 5 18:50:03 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 14:49:53 -0400 Message-ID: <315afebf-42d4-d003-3623-b33bac85afe8@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5460057190324377147==" --===============5460057190324377147== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It continues to blow my mind that the Apple Lisa is worth anything. They used to be sold for almost nothing as Mac XL's, and tended to be temperamental. So when will the Apple Newton or Mac Plus be worth anything? :-) C --===============5460057190324377147==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Sep 5 19:28:11 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 12:27:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <315afebf-42d4-d003-3623-b33bac85afe8@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7528838642419468306==" --===============7528838642419468306== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Lisa is the first consumer grade GUI computer to come to market. The Xerox 8010 with the Star operating system preceded it by a couple years, but that was a high-end $50,000 (in 1981 dollars) workstation with big businesses as the target market. So it has some historical significance in that regard. Sellam On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 11:50 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > It continues to blow my mind that the Apple Lisa is worth anything. They > used to be sold for almost nothing as Mac XL's, and tended to be > temperamental. > > So when will the Apple Newton or Mac Plus be worth anything? :-) > > C > --===============7528838642419468306==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Sep 5 19:49:20 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 12:49:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8999835136896751010==" --===============8999835136896751010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I played briefly with a pre-release Lisa (Berkeley Smalltalk). But then=20 didn't see them again. I almost bought one later as a cheaper substitute=20 for a Mac! It is historically significant. So is the 5100. But, they are totally different categories. It's like when I traded a=20 Honda for a Leica. Haven't heard from you for a while! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > The Lisa is the first consumer grade GUI computer to come to market. The > Xerox 8010 with the Star operating system preceded it by a couple years, > but that was a high-end $50,000 (in 1981 dollars) workstation with big > businesses as the target market. So it has some historical significance in > that regard. > > Sellam > > On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 11:50 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > >> It continues to blow my mind that the Apple Lisa is worth anything. They >> used to be sold for almost nothing as Mac XL's, and tended to be >> temperamental. >> >> So when will the Apple Newton or Mac Plus be worth anything? :-) >> >> C >> --===============8999835136896751010==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Mon Sep 5 19:56:28 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 12:56:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2558757574930222102==" --===============2558757574930222102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:49 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Haven't heard from you for a while! > Yep, and I missed you at the VCF this year. I decided to re-join this list when I happened upon it through a web search. The traffic is considerably less than it used to be so it's a tolerable distraction. It's good to see you're still around. I hope you are well. Sellam --===============2558757574930222102==-- From matt@9track.net Mon Sep 5 20:41:47 2022 From: Matt Burke To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 21:41:35 +0100 Message-ID: <6447071f-9dd5-b0ea-9be7-6b60dd706764@9track.net> In-Reply-To: <7wzgfd92h1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3225600432556612586==" --===============3225600432556612586== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/09/2022 18:04, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Lee Gleason wrote: >> I gave my VAXstation 100 system unit to Dave McGuire last year (I >> didn't need it since I lost interest in UNIBUS sized hobby equipment). >> Perhaps he could make a copy of its ROMs. > Thanks! I asked, and he said he's willing to dump the ROM. I dumped the ROMs from my VAXstation 100 some time ago (along with many other DEC devices): http://www.9track.net/roms/ 23-288E4.bin and 23-289E4.bin are probably the two main ones you are looking for. Do you just need the ROMs or are you looking for technical info on the VAXstation 100? I may be able to help. Regards, Matt --===============3225600432556612586==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Sep 5 21:20:06 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 16:19:56 -0500 Message-ID: <1f47f845-6d14-0616-5412-622377bf2286@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <6fbef6b1-71f9-4efe-2575-41d87840f621@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6128243324773369413==" --===============6128243324773369413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/5/22 13:46, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > If I tell you that they are not, will you think I am just > trying to get the QD21 from you? I need one to replace the > Sigma ESDI controller that failed, and no its format is > not the same either. > > They also had a choice of hard vs soft sectoring.  I > believe Emulex and Dilog handled the RCT differently on > the disk too. > > Let me know if you are willing to part with the QD21. Sorry, going through emails from 2012, it seems I sold the QD21 for a song back then. Wow, really crazy when you don't know what you dreamed and what you really did!  But, I sure can't put my hands on it now! Jon --===============6128243324773369413==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Mon Sep 5 21:34:29 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 17:34:19 -0400 Message-ID: <29e1f5c8-19db-2a97-0f91-aef43bf01711@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1f47f845-6d14-0616-5412-622377bf2286@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7525361298437001452==" --===============7525361298437001452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So now, like me, you are stuck with  a bunch of ESDI drives and no controller! I do have one DQ696, on my MVII in a BA123 box, but the other controller was a Sigma that developed in internal faulure and which I used for RT11 on my 11/73 BA23 box. Now I have to share the one controller between the two boxes. RT11 one day and NetBSD another! Like you, I sold all sorts of stuff for a song, including a millivolt-on-HVAC common mode DT2765 a/d card that was $3000 when new! I also had 3 KA630s and accidentally sold two, so now I do not have a spare for the microvax either! If anybody out there has a DQ696 or an RQDX3 available, I'd like to hear from you! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-09-05 17:19, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 9/5/22 13:46, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> If I tell you that they are not, will you think I am just trying to >> get the QD21 from you? I need one to replace the Sigma ESDI >> controller that failed, and no its format is not the same either. >> >> They also had a choice of hard vs soft sectoring.  I believe Emulex >> and Dilog handled the RCT differently on the disk too. >> >> Let me know if you are willing to part with the QD21. > > Sorry, going through emails from 2012, it seems I sold the QD21 for a > song back then. > > Wow, really crazy when you don't know what you dreamed and what you > really did!  But, I sure can't put my hands on it now! > > Jon > --===============7525361298437001452==-- From marvin@west.net Mon Sep 5 21:54:01 2022 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] FS IBM 5100 Printer Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 14:47:19 -0700 Message-ID: <8636628d-b0bf-2951-2fc5-b491cc1e4a69@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3078184332054543690==" --===============3078184332054543690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got a printer for the IBM 5100 that I would like to sell. I can bring it to VCFMW, but only if it is sold ahead of time (too heavy to comfortably bring on spec.) Best reasonable offer. Marvin --===============3078184332054543690==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 23:41:07 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 16:40:54 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0995331693874258230==" --===============0995331693874258230== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the 5100 has an external connector.  The floppy drive is a floor unit about the size of three AT units upright, with two single density floppies in it.  We used my unit as an engineering reference to do a floppy interface project which required 3740 compatability from our hardware. And there was another connector on the back of the unit to daisy chain the printer.  This is the 5100 desktop unit. I've got 3 of the floppy drives. Ethan Dicks was kind enough to retrieve another system for me from Pittsburgh, PA some time ago and is storing it for me at his house.  Got the printer and the floppy unit. I've got one of the units with the integrated 8" floppies as well. Initially a 5150 was 6000 and wasn't fully loaded.  A friend against computer advise bought one along with an IEEE interfaced 5mb drive when the PC first came out. thanks jim On 9/5/22 07:16, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> Well, it ain't in the 5150/5160 range! >>>> The 5100 new was $10K to $20K. >> On Sun, 4 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: >>> I had a 5100 that a dentist had bought as soon as it  came out and >>> he added the floppy drives and printer.  It was a direct IBM buy for >>> 31000. > > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> Are you sure about that? The 5100 doesn't support floppy drives. And >> I've never heard of third-party drives (that would need IMFs, too) >> for the 5100. > > $3100 is about what IBM charged for a fully loaded 5150. (PC) > > THAT is not a 5100!   $3100 for a 5100 would have been a bargain. > > A 5150 would not be worth as much as a Lisa. > A 5100 would be. (or at least in a similar range) > > --===============0995331693874258230==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Mon Sep 5 23:43:18 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 19:43:09 -0400 Message-ID: <17698b2e-22ce-54fa-4c9a-b62894844c4a@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0592008674405386214==" --===============0592008674405386214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Lisa is the first consumer grade GUI computer to come to market. The > Xerox 8010 with the Star operating system preceded it by a couple years, > but that was a high-end $50,000 (in 1981 dollars) workstation with big > businesses as the target market. So it has some historical significance in > that regard. Ok, a Lisa 1 perhaps. Very few of those drives survived (for good reason, they were terrible) and most were upconverted to Lisa 2's. I still have a Lisa Prodrive around here somewhere..... CZ --===============0592008674405386214==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 23:45:50 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 16:45:40 -0700 Message-ID: <0b72a745-beaf-ccf5-2ab7-df236f887ed1@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <848284b-69d2-3f7-eeb6-13b73391e7b3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5877896782793784923==" --===============5877896782793784923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/5/22 08:53, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> Well, it ain't in the 5150/5160 range! >>>>> The 5100 new was $10K to $20K. >>> On Sun, 4 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: >>>> I had a 5100 that a dentist had bought as soon as it  came out and he >             ^^^^ >>>> added the floppy drives and printer. It was a direct IBM buy for >>>> 31000. > ^^^^^ >> On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> Are you sure about that? The 5100 doesn't support floppy drives. And >>> I've never heard of third-party drives (that would need IMFs, too) >>> for the 5100. >> >> $3100 is about what IBM charged for a fully loaded 5150. (PC) >> THAT is not a 5100!   $3100 for a 5100 would have been a bargain. > > We are neither talking about the 5150, nor about $3100 but $31,000 for > a 5100 (see above). Or did I miss something? > correct.  I'm guessing they are thinking I'm confusing the unit with the integrated 8" floppies, or with a much later PC.  which I'm not. The referred to guy was a dentist who had had this in a closet for 15 years or so, had written a couple of floppies worth of programs, and otherwise had not done anything with it. it was all in the trunk of a huge ass Cadillac convertible.  I was one of the first who came by, and bought it on the spot.  Drove to my truck, offloaded it and sent him on the way on an early Sunday morning.  At the ACP Swap Meet in Santa Ana.  He wondered if he asked too much, and wanted it gone and didn't want to really be in the middle of a spectacle over it and how little he got out of it. I was glad to get it. > Christian --===============5877896782793784923==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 23:50:09 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 16:49:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6708752021570322731==" --===============6708752021570322731== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/5/22 11:07, Tom Stepleton via cctalk wrote: >>>> Are you sure about that? The 5100 doesn't support floppy drives. And >> I've >>>> never heard of third-party drives (that would need IMFs, too) for the >> 5100. >>> $3100 is about what IBM charged for a fully loaded 5150. (PC) >>> THAT is not a 5100! $3100 for a 5100 would have been a bargain. >> We are neither talking about the 5150, nor about $3100 but $31,000 for a >> 5100 (see above). Or did I miss something? >> > There was a third-party floppy drive for the IBM 5100 :-) > > Or at least there as something that was sold in this way. Here is its > brochure: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sykes/brochures/Sykes_Comm-Stor_5100_Brochure.= pdf > > Note that it "plugs directly into the Serial I/O Adapter of the IBM 5100 > with no hardware or software changes". So it's a serial-port connected > floppy drive that talks to the 5100 in a format that it likes. > > (What is an IMF?) > > --Tom The unit I have is IBM. It only did single sided diskettes, low density.=C2=A0 It's the only device=20 which I've ever had which could write deleted sectors.=C2=A0 The formatting=20 on the diskette is very similar to the tape formatting with two EOT=20 records followed by the remainder of track 0 padded out with deleted=20 sectors. My Tarbell controller would read the two records and returned errors for=20 the remaining sectors.=C2=A0 That's how I discovered that deleted sectors=20 existed. Sykes made much more robust devices, and I'm not familiar with the unit=20 for the 5100.=C2=A0 But I'd not be surprised if it wrote and read many more=20 formats. Thanks Jim thanks jim --===============6708752021570322731==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Sep 6 00:05:01 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 19:04:50 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <29e1f5c8-19db-2a97-0f91-aef43bf01711@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8847512238586907437==" --===============8847512238586907437== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/5/22 16:34, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > > If anybody out there has a DQ696 or an RQDX3 available, > I'd like to hear from you! I DO have a DQ696 that I will be bringing to the VCFMW.  If it won't read my ESDI drives formatted on an Emulex QD21, then it is of no use to me. Jon --===============8847512238586907437==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 6 00:12:36 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 20:12:25 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <29e1f5c8-19db-2a97-0f91-aef43bf01711@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5841193142103452823==" --===============5841193142103452823== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a spare RQDX3, but I really recommend finding an ESDI controller. It is literally a slug compared to my MTI ESDI controller. C On 9/5/2022 5:34 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > So now, like me, you are stuck with  a bunch of ESDI drives and no > controller! > > I do have one DQ696, on my MVII in a BA123 box, but the other controller > was a Sigma that developed in internal faulure and which I used for RT11 > on my 11/73 BA23 box. > > Now I have to share the one controller between the two boxes. RT11 one > day and NetBSD another! > > Like you, I sold all sorts of stuff for a song, including a > millivolt-on-HVAC common mode DT2765 a/d card that was $3000 when new! I > also had 3 KA630s and accidentally sold two, so now I do not have a > spare for the microvax either! > > If anybody out there has a DQ696 or an RQDX3 available, I'd like to hear > from you! > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:  TILBURY2591 > > > On 2022-09-05 17:19, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 9/5/22 13:46, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>> If I tell you that they are not, will you think I am just trying to >>> get the QD21 from you? I need one to replace the Sigma ESDI >>> controller that failed, and no its format is not the same either. >>> >>> They also had a choice of hard vs soft sectoring.  I believe Emulex >>> and Dilog handled the RCT differently on the disk too. >>> >>> Let me know if you are willing to part with the QD21. >> >> Sorry, going through emails from 2012, it seems I sold the QD21 for a >> song back then. >> >> Wow, really crazy when you don't know what you dreamed and what you >> really did!  But, I sure can't put my hands on it now! >> >> Jon >> --===============5841193142103452823==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Tue Sep 6 00:16:46 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 20:16:35 -0400 Message-ID: <871ea807-3616-ac67-36b3-12d831e2e240@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2953843737226966135==" --===============2953843737226966135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree, but in addition to getting the main system disk back up, I have an ST506 emulator from David Gesswein that I would like to get working after I built it.  My Plessey DCV54 does not even offer a drive select signal! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-09-05 20:12, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have a spare RQDX3, but I really recommend finding an ESDI > controller. It is literally a slug compared to my MTI ESDI controller. > > C > > On 9/5/2022 5:34 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> So now, like me, you are stuck with  a bunch of ESDI drives and no >> controller! >> >> I do have one DQ696, on my MVII in a BA123 box, but the other >> controller was a Sigma that developed in internal faulure and which I >> used for RT11 on my 11/73 BA23 box. >> >> Now I have to share the one controller between the two boxes. RT11 >> one day and NetBSD another! >> >> Like you, I sold all sorts of stuff for a song, including a >> millivolt-on-HVAC common mode DT2765 a/d card that was $3000 when >> new! I also had 3 KA630s and accidentally sold two, so now I do not >> have a spare for the microvax either! >> >> If anybody out there has a DQ696 or an RQDX3 available, I'd like to >> hear from you! >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> >> >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype:  TILBURY2591 >> >> >> On 2022-09-05 17:19, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 9/5/22 13:46, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>>> If I tell you that they are not, will you think I am just trying to >>>> get the QD21 from you? I need one to replace the Sigma ESDI >>>> controller that failed, and no its format is not the same either. >>>> >>>> They also had a choice of hard vs soft sectoring.  I believe Emulex >>>> and Dilog handled the RCT differently on the disk too. >>>> >>>> Let me know if you are willing to part with the QD21. >>> >>> Sorry, going through emails from 2012, it seems I sold the QD21 for >>> a song back then. >>> >>> Wow, really crazy when you don't know what you dreamed and what you >>> really did!  But, I sure can't put my hands on it now! >>> >>> Jon >>> --===============2953843737226966135==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 6 00:29:54 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Next Week: VCF Midwest Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2022 20:29:42 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <871ea807-3616-ac67-36b3-12d831e2e240@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5275425989279133786==" --===============5275425989279133786== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh those things are so fun. Let me know off list, I'll start checking through things to find it. C On 9/5/2022 8:16 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > I agree, but in addition to getting the main system disk back up, I have > an ST506 emulator from David Gesswein that I would like to get working > after I built it.  My Plessey DCV54 does not even offer a drive select > signal! > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:  TILBURY2591 > > > On 2022-09-05 20:12, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I have a spare RQDX3, but I really recommend finding an ESDI >> controller. It is literally a slug compared to my MTI ESDI controller. >> >> C >> >> On 9/5/2022 5:34 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>> So now, like me, you are stuck with  a bunch of ESDI drives and no >>> controller! >>> >>> I do have one DQ696, on my MVII in a BA123 box, but the other >>> controller was a Sigma that developed in internal faulure and which I >>> used for RT11 on my 11/73 BA23 box. >>> >>> Now I have to share the one controller between the two boxes. RT11 >>> one day and NetBSD another! >>> >>> Like you, I sold all sorts of stuff for a song, including a >>> millivolt-on-HVAC common mode DT2765 a/d card that was $3000 when >>> new! I also had 3 KA630s and accidentally sold two, so now I do not >>> have a spare for the microvax either! >>> >>> If anybody out there has a DQ696 or an RQDX3 available, I'd like to >>> hear from you! >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Nigel >>> >>> >>> >>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>> Skype:  TILBURY2591 >>> >>> >>> On 2022-09-05 17:19, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 9/5/22 13:46, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>>>> If I tell you that they are not, will you think I am just trying to >>>>> get the QD21 from you? I need one to replace the Sigma ESDI >>>>> controller that failed, and no its format is not the same either. >>>>> >>>>> They also had a choice of hard vs soft sectoring.  I believe Emulex >>>>> and Dilog handled the RCT differently on the disk too. >>>>> >>>>> Let me know if you are willing to part with the QD21. >>>> >>>> Sorry, going through emails from 2012, it seems I sold the QD21 for >>>> a song back then. >>>> >>>> Wow, really crazy when you don't know what you dreamed and what you >>>> really did!  But, I sure can't put my hands on it now! >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> --===============5275425989279133786==-- From lars@nocrew.org Tue Sep 6 05:02:21 2022 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 05:02:08 +0000 Message-ID: <7wv8q1859r.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <6447071f-9dd5-b0ea-9be7-6b60dd706764@9track.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1448642941227125594==" --===============1448642941227125594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt Burke wrote: > I dumped the ROMs from my VAXstation 100 some time ago (along with many > other DEC devices): > > http://www.9track.net/roms/ > > 23-288E4.bin and 23-289E4.bin are probably the two main ones you are > looking for. Do you just need the ROMs or are you looking for technical > info on the VAXstation 100? I may be able to help. Thank you very much! My idea is to make a VS100 emulator and have it run the firmware uploaded by early X versions. But I have some other things going on now, so it will have to wait. I'd be grateful for any help; I may well get in touch in the future. --===============1448642941227125594==-- From jbglaw@lug-owl.de Tue Sep 6 07:07:09 2022 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 09:06:50 +0200 Message-ID: <20220906070650.2ytpo7zibrhyk5rz@lug-owl.de> In-Reply-To: <7wv8q1859r.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0839454053262834380==" --===============0839454053262834380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2022-09-06 05:02:08 +0000, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Matt Burke wrote: > > I dumped the ROMs from my VAXstation 100 some time ago (along with many > > other DEC devices): > > > > http://www.9track.net/roms/ > Thank you very much! My idea is to make a VS100 emulator and have it > run the firmware uploaded by early X versions. But I have some other > things going on now, so it will have to wait. I'd be grateful for any > help; I may well get in touch in the future. What kind of emulator are you planing? A completely new thing? Or do you want to use SIMH as a basis? MfG, JBG --=20 --===============0839454053262834380==-- From lars@nocrew.org Tue Sep 6 07:32:00 2022 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAXstation 100 ROM image Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 07:31:52 +0000 Message-ID: <7wedwp7yc7.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <20220906070650.2ytpo7zibrhyk5rz@lug-owl.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8892367885112948164==" --===============8892367885112948164== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> My idea is to make a VS100 emulator and have it run the firmware >> uploaded by early X versions. > > What kind of emulator are you planing? A completely new thing? Or do > you want to use SIMH as a basis? It's just a vague idea. It's much too early to say I have any kind of plan in place. I might use SIMH, or something like Musashi, or write my own in adjunction to my VT52 and VT100 simulators. I suppose the Unibus interface to a VAX host would favour use of SIMH, in which case the VS100 would look like a SIMH device with a 68000 inside. --===============8892367885112948164==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 6 07:42:16 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 09:41:57 +0200 Message-ID: <4a5b2f7f-e133-5b34-6842-7ebf5a6ac66@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1824068037315102325==" --===============1824068037315102325== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, Tom Stepleton wrote: > Or at least there as something that was sold in this way. Here is its > brochure: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sykes/brochures/Sykes_Comm-Stor_5100_Brochure.= pdf Interesting! > (What is an IMF?) IMF =3D internal machine fix The 5100/5110 had a mechanism to load resident binary routines into memory=20 in order to patch ROS (=3DROM) routines or to add a driver (e.g. the=20 Plot feature). Basically, you load a program that then relocates the=20 resident part to the end of free memory, patches some entry points in RWS=20 (=3DRAM) and adjusts the end-of-memory value. Christian --===============1824068037315102325==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 6 07:48:09 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 09:47:56 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0179523617938764792==" --===============0179523617938764792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: > the 5100 has an external connector.=C2=A0 The floppy drive is a floor unit = about Yes, three Sub-D connectors. Two for the signals, one for power. > the size of three AT units upright, with two single density floppies in it.= =C2=A0 And that floppy drive (if you are thinking of the IBM 5114) does *not*=20 work on the 5100. The 5100 simply has not the "driver" for it. Is it possible that you are thinking of the IBM 5110 ? > And there was another connector on the back of the unit to daisy chain the = > printer.=C2=A0 This is the 5100 desktop unit. You could only attach up to three IBM 5106 external tape drives and one=20 5103 printer at the end of the chain. There wasn't anything else AFAIK. > I've got one of the units with the integrated 8" floppies as well. That is the IBM 5120 aka IBM 5110 model 3. Christian --===============0179523617938764792==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 6 07:52:09 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 09:51:58 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5977957603694419767==" --===============5977957603694419767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 5 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: > The unit I have is IBM. There was no floppy drive unit from IBM for the IBM 5100. Or do you have a model number? > It only did single sided diskettes, low density.=C2=A0 It's the only device= which The IBM 5114 handles single and double sided diskettes, as well as FM and=20 MFM, so up to over 1 MB per floppy. > I've ever had which could write deleted sectors.=C2=A0 The formatting on th= e=20 > diskette is very similar to the tape formatting with two EOT records follow= ed=20 > by the remainder of track 0 padded out with deleted sectors. ?? Now I'm curious. What floppy drive system exactly are you talking about? Christian --===============5977957603694419767==-- From sieler@allegrosupport.com Wed Sep 7 05:56:54 2022 From: Stan Sieler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] HP 150 software Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2022 17:50:46 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1460923502618466003==" --===============1460923502618466003== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I found a bunch of original HP 150 software on 3.5" floppies ... any HP 150 collectors here? Free, pickup, Cupertino. Includes the following. About 1/2 are original disks. The most unusual are probably the compilers from Prospero, and the IMAGE-like database (Mirage?) from Datasoft International (the developer was likely Michel Kohon, from France, and a member of the HP 3000 community). Datacom: DSN/Link HP PCLink Kermit PC2622 Reflection 1 Plus Misc / Unknown: Ally/150 Application Master Extended I/O Application Cardfile (full app) Cardfile demo Computer tutor 150 Edit/150 from KSD systems Limited Infocom sampler Interex CSL/100 volume 56 Interex CSL150 (contributed library) Mentor version 1.E.1 from KSD systems Limited System demo Thinkjet demo Visicalc Games: Tick Tock, Radar, Othello, others Type attack, Temple of Apshai, Ricochet Winning Deal Zork Programming... C (unknown...just says "C" on label) Lattice C MASM Modula 2 MVP Forth (on misc games floppy) Pro Fortran from Prospero Pro For 1 (possibly same as above) Pro Pascal from Prospero Borland Turbo Pascal 2.0 ISV Development (from HP) ISV revision A.1.2 (Independent Software Vendor toolkit from HP?) Programmers Toolkit (HP) Programmers tools: debug, sort, find, edlin, ece2bin, ...more... (HP) Database: ??? Mirager Version ii 2.A.1 Datasoft International Mirage Library Mirage I // --===============1460923502618466003==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Wed Sep 7 06:07:16 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP 150 software Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 06:07:09 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4319105607226888735==" --===============4319105607226888735== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any chance you could upload them to the internet archive for posterity? Wayne > On Sep 6, 2022, at 10:56 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I found a bunch of original HP 150 software on 3.5" floppies ... > any HP 150 collectors here? Free, pickup, Cupertino. >=20 > Includes the following. About 1/2 are original disks. >=20 > The most unusual are probably the compilers from Prospero, and the > IMAGE-like database (Mirage?) from Datasoft International (the developer > was likely Michel Kohon, from France, and a member of the HP 3000 > community). >=20 > Datacom: > DSN/Link > HP PCLink > Kermit > PC2622 > Reflection 1 Plus >=20 > Misc / Unknown: > Ally/150 > Application Master Extended I/O Application > Cardfile (full app) > Cardfile demo > Computer tutor 150 > Edit/150 from KSD systems Limited > Infocom sampler > Interex CSL/100 volume 56 > Interex CSL150 (contributed library) > Mentor version 1.E.1 from KSD systems Limited > System demo > Thinkjet demo > Visicalc >=20 > Games: > Tick Tock, Radar, Othello, others > Type attack, Temple of Apshai, Ricochet > Winning Deal > Zork >=20 > Programming... > C (unknown...just says "C" on label) > Lattice C > MASM > Modula 2 > MVP Forth (on misc games floppy) > Pro Fortran from Prospero > Pro For 1 (possibly same as above) > Pro Pascal from Prospero > Borland Turbo Pascal 2.0 >=20 > ISV Development (from HP) > ISV revision A.1.2 (Independent Software Vendor toolkit from HP?) > Programmers Toolkit (HP) > Programmers tools: debug, sort, find, edlin, ece2bin, ...more... (HP) >=20 > Database: ??? > Mirager Version ii 2.A.1 Datasoft International > Mirage Library > Mirage I >=20 > // --===============4319105607226888735==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Wed Sep 7 06:12:25 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP 150 software Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 06:12:10 +0000 Message-ID: <1450760787.112977.1662531130389@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4899585660400641369==" --===============4899585660400641369== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A pity! Too far from az for pickup....=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Tue, Sep 6, 2022 at 10:56 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: Hi, I found a bunch of original HP 150 software on 3.5" floppies ... any HP 150 collectors here?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Free, pickup, Cupertino. Includes the following.=C2=A0 About 1/2 are original disks. The most unusual are probably the compilers from Prospero, and the IMAGE-like database (Mirage?) from Datasoft International (the developer was likely Michel Kohon, from France, and a member of the HP 3000 community). Datacom: =C2=A0 DSN/Link =C2=A0 HP PCLink =C2=A0 Kermit =C2=A0 PC2622 =C2=A0 Reflection 1 Plus Misc / Unknown: =C2=A0 Ally/150 =C2=A0 Application Master Extended I/O Application =C2=A0 Cardfile (full app) =C2=A0 Cardfile demo =C2=A0 Computer tutor 150 =C2=A0 Edit/150 from KSD systems Limited =C2=A0 Infocom sampler =C2=A0 Interex CSL/100 volume 56 =C2=A0 Interex CSL150=C2=A0 (contributed library) =C2=A0 Mentor version 1.E.1 from KSD systems Limited =C2=A0 System demo =C2=A0 Thinkjet demo =C2=A0 Visicalc Games: =C2=A0 Tick Tock, Radar, Othello, others =C2=A0 Type attack, Temple of Apshai, Ricochet =C2=A0 Winning Deal =C2=A0 Zork Programming... =C2=A0 C (unknown...just says "C" on label) =C2=A0 Lattice C =C2=A0 MASM =C2=A0 Modula 2 =C2=A0 MVP Forth (on misc games floppy) =C2=A0 Pro Fortran from Prospero =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pro For 1=C2=A0 (possibly same as above) =C2=A0 Pro Pascal from Prospero =C2=A0 Borland Turbo Pascal 2.0 =C2=A0 ISV Development=C2=A0 (from HP) =C2=A0 ISV revision A.1.2 (Independent Software Vendor toolkit from HP?) =C2=A0 Programmers Toolkit=C2=A0 (HP) =C2=A0 Programmers tools: debug, sort, find, edlin, ece2bin, ...more... (HP) Database: ??? =C2=A0 Mirager Version ii 2.A.1 Datasoft International =C2=A0 Mirage Library =C2=A0 Mirage I // =20 --===============4899585660400641369==-- From jon@jonworld.com Wed Sep 7 12:32:59 2022 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] COMAL language in the UK? Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 13:32:37 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0277347351084069733==" --===============0277347351084069733== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a query which came into TNMOC, but I'm wondering if there are people here who can assist. From: Date: Thu, 1 Sept 2022 at 22:05 Subject: Comal 80 in Great Britain Hey there, my name is Mikkel, I am working on a book about a series of danish micro computers where the history of the programming language "Comal" will be a part of, and i just discovered that there was a UK Comal User groups and also a periodical called "Comal Bulletin", ive searched the internet i cannot find anything. But i hope that you might know some historians or hobbyist? or even online databases? you can refer me to? I would like to know all there is to know about Comal in UK? And as a sidenote, if somebody knows something about danish computers in uk from the 70s and 80s i would of course like to hear about that to. Hope you can help me, more info about my book is here : https://www.thedanishcomet.com -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============0277347351084069733==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Sep 7 15:45:38 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Odd free docs Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 11:45:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1430000911762565056==" --===============1430000911762565056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found some documentation relating to Sturthers-Dunn Director 4001 PLC and a SixNet technical config guide, all from the 1980's. Anyone want it for shipping or pickup in MD? C --===============1430000911762565056==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Sep 7 16:00:57 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] kierney techney CNC machine documentaiton Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 10:59:50 -0500 Message-ID: <2e3667e8-4473-7df1-9ed8-cd60cceb6ee5@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6551227602053290890==" --===============6551227602053290890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have the PDP-8/A from a Kierney Techney CNC machine.  Does anybody have any documentation on this system? Thanks,           Mike P.S.  See you at VCF Midwest this weekend.  I will be in the big iron room (room D).  In the corner on the left as you walk in. --===============6551227602053290890==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Sep 7 16:23:50 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: kierney techney CNC machine documentaiton Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 11:23:42 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2e3667e8-4473-7df1-9ed8-cd60cceb6ee5@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1185792885350142574==" --===============1185792885350142574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/7/22 10:59, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have the PDP-8/A from a Kierney Techney CNC machine.  > Does anybody have any documentation on this system? That would be a Kearney-Trecker machine.  Maybe that spelling will help. Jon --===============1185792885350142574==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Wed Sep 7 16:26:10 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: COMAL language in the UK? Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 17:19:29 +0100 Message-ID: <01SHP5RNA2068WWHK8@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4133701944775542714==" --===============4133701944775542714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not in the UK but I think I have a COMAL paged rom image for the BBC Micro somewhere. I don't think I ever tried using it, I have no documentation for it and I don't know anything about it but if there is any interest, I will try to find it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > This is a query which came into TNMOC, but I'm wondering if there are > people here who can assist. > > From: > Date: Thu, 1 Sept 2022 at 22:05 > Subject: Comal 80 in Great Britain > > Hey there, my name is Mikkel, I am working on a book about a series of > danish micro computers where the history of the programming language > "Comal" will be a part of, and i just discovered that there was a UK > Comal User groups and also a periodical called "Comal Bulletin", ive > searched the internet i cannot find anything. But i hope that you might > know some historians or hobbyist? or even online databases? you can > refer me to? > > I would like to know all there is to know about Comal in UK? And as a > sidenote, if somebody knows something about danish computers in uk from > the 70s and 80s i would of course like to hear about that to. > > Hope you can help me, more info about my book is here : > https://www.thedanishcomet.com > > -- > -Jon > +44 7792 149029 --===============4133701944775542714==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Wed Sep 7 18:27:04 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Kearney-Trecker CNC machine documentation Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 12:57:23 -0500 Message-ID: <6b54c309-98fa-99f1-a4c6-f2ce8d45b966@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3177624285193186452==" --===============3177624285193186452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Correction: I have the PDP-8/A system from a Kearney-Trecker CNC machine.  Does anyone have any documentation on this system? Jon thank you for the correction. On 9/7/2022 11:23 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 9/7/22 10:59, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> I have the PDP-8/A from a Kierney Techney CNC machine.  Does anybody >> have any documentation on this system? > > That would be a Kearney-Trecker machine.  Maybe that spelling will help. > > Jon > --===============3177624285193186452==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Wed Sep 7 22:15:51 2022 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP 150 software Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2022 23:15:44 +0100 Message-ID: <025b01d8c307$5faab500$1f001f00$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0347202163361751910==" --===============0347202163361751910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a HP-150 but I am in the UK. I think it would be good to get the image= s made and archived before sending the floppies anywhere at all. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Sieler via cctalk > Sent: 07 September 2022 01:51 > To: baccl(a)googlegroups.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Cc: Stan Sieler > Subject: [cctalk] HP 150 software >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I found a bunch of original HP 150 software on 3.5" floppies ... > any HP 150 collectors here? Free, pickup, Cupertino. >=20 > Includes the following. About 1/2 are original disks. >=20 > The most unusual are probably the compilers from Prospero, and the > IMAGE-like database (Mirage?) from Datasoft International (the developer > was likely Michel Kohon, from France, and a member of the HP 3000 > community). >=20 > Datacom: > DSN/Link > HP PCLink > Kermit > PC2622 > Reflection 1 Plus >=20 > Misc / Unknown: > Ally/150 > Application Master Extended I/O Application > Cardfile (full app) > Cardfile demo > Computer tutor 150 > Edit/150 from KSD systems Limited > Infocom sampler > Interex CSL/100 volume 56 > Interex CSL150 (contributed library) > Mentor version 1.E.1 from KSD systems Limited > System demo > Thinkjet demo > Visicalc >=20 > Games: > Tick Tock, Radar, Othello, others > Type attack, Temple of Apshai, Ricochet > Winning Deal > Zork >=20 > Programming... > C (unknown...just says "C" on label) > Lattice C > MASM > Modula 2 > MVP Forth (on misc games floppy) > Pro Fortran from Prospero > Pro For 1 (possibly same as above) > Pro Pascal from Prospero > Borland Turbo Pascal 2.0 >=20 > ISV Development (from HP) > ISV revision A.1.2 (Independent Software Vendor toolkit from HP?) > Programmers Toolkit (HP) > Programmers tools: debug, sort, find, edlin, ece2bin, ...more... (HP) >=20 > Database: ??? > Mirager Version ii 2.A.1 Datasoft International > Mirage Library > Mirage I >=20 > // --===============0347202163361751910==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Thu Sep 8 01:49:22 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP 150 software Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2022 01:49:03 +0000 Message-ID: <2020783776.393835.1662601743264@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <025b01d8c307$5faab500$1f001f00$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1762225391061512659==" --===============1762225391061512659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed! I used to sell 150s and all the HP PC models that followed...=C2=A0 w= hen we had the computer biz and some of these compilers I never head of!=C2= =A0 We do not have the odd balls at SMECC MUSEUM=C2=A0 either... so Stan haam= s a task ahead and should save some of this stuff=C2=A0 off.Ed Sharpe Archivi= dt for SMECC MUSEUM Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Wed, Sep 7, 2022 at 3:15 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: I have a HP-150 but I am in the UK. I think it would be good to= get the images made and archived before sending the floppies anywhere at all. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Sieler via cctalk > Sent: 07 September 2022 01:51 > To: baccl(a)googlegroups.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Cc: Stan Sieler > Subject: [cctalk] HP 150 software >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I found a bunch of original HP 150 software on 3.5" floppies ... > any HP 150 collectors here?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Free, pickup, Cupertino. >=20 > Includes the following.=C2=A0 About 1/2 are original disks. >=20 > The most unusual are probably the compilers from Prospero, and the > IMAGE-like database (Mirage?) from Datasoft International (the developer > was likely Michel Kohon, from France, and a member of the HP 3000 > community). >=20 > Datacom: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 DSN/Link >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 HP PCLink >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Kermit >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 PC2622 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reflection 1 Plus >=20 > Misc / Unknown: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ally/150 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Application Master Extended I/O Application >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cardfile (full app) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cardfile demo >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Computer tutor 150 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Edit/150 from KSD systems Limited >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Infocom sampler >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Interex CSL/100 volume 56 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Interex CSL150=C2=A0 (contributed library) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mentor version 1.E.1 from KSD systems Limited >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 System demo >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thinkjet demo >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Visicalc >=20 > Games: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tick Tock, Radar, Othello, others >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Type attack, Temple of Apshai, Ricochet >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Winning Deal >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Zork >=20 > Programming... >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 C (unknown...just says "C" on label) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lattice C >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MASM >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Modula 2 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MVP Forth (on misc games floppy) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pro Fortran from Prospero >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pro For 1=C2=A0 (possibly same as above) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pro Pascal from Prospero >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Borland Turbo Pascal 2.0 >=20 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISV Development=C2=A0 (from HP) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISV revision A.1.2 (Independent Software Vendor toolkit from H= P?) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Programmers Toolkit=C2=A0 (HP) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Programmers tools: debug, sort, find, edlin, ece2bin, ...more.= .. (HP) >=20 > Database: ??? >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mirager Version ii 2.A.1 Datasoft International >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mirage Library >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mirage I >=20 > // =20 --===============1762225391061512659==-- From rdbrown0au@gmail.com Fri Sep 9 09:33:39 2022 From: Rodney Brown To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: COMAL language in the UK? Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2022 19:33:25 +1000 Message-ID: <0d6ae35e-d6da-fd2b-07dd-eb12dcf17347@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0850228028555905469==" --===============0850228028555905469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the details means that the British Library has Volume 1 I'm surprised that WorldCat didn't return it as being in the British Library * * *Title:* COMAL bulletin : structured methods in programming and education. * *Other Titles: * Key Title: COMAL bulletin * *Subjects:* COMAL (Computer program language) -- Periodicals ; Computer systems Structured programming Programming languages Comal language Serials ; Dewey: 005.13/3 * *Publication Details: * Chichester : Ellis Horwood, 1982- * *Language: * English * *Description: * Vol.1, no.1 (Apr. 1982)- * *Identifier: * ISSN 0263-0478; BNB=C2=A0GB8240032; System number=C2=A0011= 633483 * *Notes: * Current publication frequency: Six issues yearly Ceased publication. * *Physical Description: * v. : ill. ; 30cm. * *Holdings Notes: * Science Technology and Business (P) PN 46 (C10) -E(2) 1982-1982; Vol.1. * *Obsolete shelfmark: * (P) PN 46(C) -E(1) * *Shelfmark(s): * Science, Technology & Business (P) PN 46 (C10) -E(2) * *UIN:* BLL01011633483 http://explore.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=3DmoreTab&ct= =3Ddisplay&fn=3Dsearch&doc=3DBLL01011633483&indx=3D1&recIds=3DBLL01011633483&= recIdxs=3D0&elementId=3D0&renderMode=3DpoppedOut&displayMode=3Dfull&frbrVersi= on=3D&frbg=3D&&dscnt=3D0&scp.scps=3Dscope%3A%28BLCONTENT%29&vl(2084770704UI0)= =3Dany&tb=3Dt&vid=3DBLVU1&mode=3DBasic&srt=3Drank&tab=3Dlocal_tab&dum=3Dtrue&= vl(freeText0)=3D%22COMAL%20BULLETIN%22%20%220263-0478%22%20%22Ellis%20Horwood= %22&dstmp=3D1662715521681 System number 011633483 Abbreviated title COMAL bull. Key title COMAL bulletin Title COMAL bulletin :=C2=A0structured methods in programming and education. Publisher/year Chichester :=C2=A0Ellis Horwood,=C2=A01982- Physical descr. v. :=C2=A0ill. ;=C2=A030cm. Holdings note Science Technology and Industr=C2=A0(P)=C2=A0PN 46=C2=A0(C10) = -E(2)=C2=A01982-1982; Vol.1. --===============0850228028555905469==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Fri Sep 9 12:32:45 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: You have Apple Lisa 1 "twiggy" system to trade for my IBM 5100 Portable PC? Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2022 08:32:26 -0400 Message-ID: <8937F520-3200-4424-8ED4-28F07EE6F742@ryandelaplante.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6887532032674280050==" --===============6887532032674280050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is an IBM 5100 on eBay right now: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314137209812 In 2018 I saw a BASIC model sell for $2500. I=E2=80=99ve seen a working APL = model sell for $6150 in 2021. =20 I=E2=80=99ve been keeping track of Lisa 1 sales on eBay for some years. I ta= ke a screenshot of the finished auction and also save all of the photos. The= y sell for a lot, and I wonder if they will one day be priced like Apple 1 c= omputers? I remember when Apple 1 computers were going for $10K - $20K, and = now they go for the price of a house.=20 Twiggy drives only: Mar 14, 2017 : $32,100.52 Face plate only :=20 Mar 14, 2017 : $4,602 Complete Lisa 1 system: Apr 25, 2017 : $99,500 May 11, 2017 : $55,300 Jan 14, 208 : $56,100 Mar 25, 2018 : $55,300 Nov 11, 2018 : $65,000 (did not sell, later marked as =E2=80=9Cno longer avai= lable=E2=80=9D) Sep 7, 2019 : $43,900 obsol33t > On Sep 3, 2022, at 7:16 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I think there's a rather large disparity in value between the two systems. > I'm not sure what an IBM 5100 would go for these days, but a Lisa 1 will > generally sell in the $10K+ range minimum these days. >=20 > I had two Lisa's with Twiggy drives: one I sold for $9,600, and the other > for $14,500. That was over 8 years ago. >=20 > Sellam >=20 > On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 4:12 PM steven stengel via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> This seems like a good place to ask this question - I'd like an Apple Lisa >> 1 "twiggy" system for my collection, and can trade a working IBM 5100 >> Portable PC. We'd probably have to meet in person to make the transaction. >> I'm in So CA. >> Thanks- >> Steven Stengel >> http://oldcomputers.net >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============6887532032674280050==-- From Martin.Hepperle@dlr.de Fri Sep 9 14:13:44 2022 From: Martin.Hepperle@dlr.de To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Pre 5.1 HP-UX media? Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2022 14:06:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1f63c62365f2485caea7d36fabdb2291@dlr.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0613807831775136075==" --===============0613807831775136075== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Myself and some more people would be very interested in finding a set of inst= allation disks (or disk images) for HP-UX 2.0 and 2.1 and later up to 5.0. Obviously these have never been or made available, but maybe someone still ha= s a set. These early HP-UX versions were used on HP 9000/200 systems with floppy disks= like HP 9826 and HP 9836 as well as on 9000/217 boxes. Later versions work fine on HP 9000/300 systems, but not on the 9000/200 syst= ems with Motorola 68010 CPUs. Martin --===============0613807831775136075==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Fri Sep 9 21:24:56 2022 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MicroVAX CTI (DEC Professional) card Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2022 16:24:25 -0500 Message-ID: <6bcbf986-ca6e-1d1f-c5b5-ec5459f3d1e2@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <698FD99F-F40E-4128-A234-65C54F80A113@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6667998034315489782==" --===============6667998034315489782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   Took some pictures of the MicroVAX CTI card, and another odd card I got - an 8086 CTI smartcard. See 'em both at https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2022/09/microvax-and-8086-smartcards-for-dec.html -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============6667998034315489782==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Sep 9 21:40:09 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MicroVAX CTI (DEC Professional) card Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2022 15:39:49 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6bcbf986-ca6e-1d1f-c5b5-ec5459f3d1e2@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7027215873376302409==" --===============7027215873376302409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Sep 9, 2022, 3:24 PM Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > > Took some pictures of the MicroVAX CTI card, and another odd card I > got - an 8086 CTI smartcard. See 'em both at > > > https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2022/09/microvax-and-8086-smartcards-for-dec.html The 8086 card was likely for DOS or CP/M-86 programs... It likely predates windows and didn't seem to have graphics parts / output (though I suppose the latter could be over the bus...) Warner > -- > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lee.gleason(a)comcast.net > > > --===============7027215873376302409==-- From bdweb@mindspring.com Fri Sep 9 23:24:34 2022 From: Bjoren Davis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MicroVAX CTI (DEC Professional) card Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2022 19:19:23 -0400 Message-ID: <1afc9c10-8bd4-c7de-048b-6b83beb55343@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3593261825178486904==" --===============3593261825178486904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/9/2022 5:39 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 9, 2022, 3:24 PM Lee Gleason via cctalk > wrote: > >> Took some pictures of the MicroVAX CTI card, and another odd card I >> got - an 8086 CTI smartcard. See 'em both at >> >> >> https://rsx11.blogspot.com/2022/09/microvax-and-8086-smartcards-for-dec.ht= ml > > The 8086 card was likely for DOS or CP/M-86 programs... It likely predates > windows and didn't seem to have graphics parts / output (though I suppose > the latter could be over the bus...) I have one of the Virtual Microsystems PC-Bridge CTI boards (the=20 commercial 8086 board). One of the more interesting things about it is that it has its own video=20 circuitry.=C2=A0 It's built up around an Hitachi HD46505/HD6845 CRT=20 controller with 16 KiByte of video RAM and a character generator ROM (a=20 lot like a CGA).=C2=A0 The board has one of the "long" ZIF connectors with=20 the additional 30 pins which carry, among other things, the analog video=20 signals wired directly to the monitor port.=C2=A0 The board superimposes its = own video onto that of the system.=C2=A0 The PC-Bridge host software just=20 clears the screen and turns off the cursor.=C2=A0 In some cases the host=20 software can pop up host video simultaneously with the PC-Bridge video. I assume the PC-Bridge hardware looks for sync on the "GREEN VIDEO"=20 signal or, possibly, the driver software uses the host video sync=20 interrupts to do a kind of software PLL to lock the video sources=20 together.=C2=A0 Somehow the fact that both the system and the PC-Bridge board= =20 simultaneously drive the analog video lines works out. Hairy stuff. Another really interesting thing about the PC-Bridge board is that it=20 has DEC-labelled parts on it.=C2=A0 I'm not talking about things like=20 "proprietary" bus interfaces chips.=C2=A0 The DRAM SIMMs (used for the=20 board's main memory) have the digital logo and a DEC part number on them=20 (1418744-00). In addition the chips are labelled with the DEC convention=20 (Exx) and are numbered E1, E2,... starting in the lower right hand=20 corner, with the first chip of each column being labelled on the board,=20 just as on DEC boards. This made me suspect that the PC-Bridge board was actually designed by=20 DEC, or maybe the design was originated by DEC, and so maybe the board=20 Lee got on eBay was an earlier version of the PC-Bridge. But it's clear that isn't the case -- Lee's board has a 60-pin ZIF=20 connector and no apparent CRT controller chip. I was never able to get the original Virtual Microsystems software=20 package for my board, but from a friend I did find a Pro hard drive=20 image with the PC-Bridge application software installed on it.=C2=A0 With=20 that I was able to regenerate the installation diskettes. All of this is an incredibly roundabout way of saying: I was going to=20 offer my reconstituted PC-Bridge installation diskettes, but I really=20 doubt they'll work.=C2=A0 In fact, I really doubt the software to drive Lee's= =20 board is easily obtainable at all, given that his board bears no real=20 resemblance to the PC-Bridge board which, AFAIK, was the only 8086 CTI=20 board commercially available. From what I see in the photograph I'd guess that the board works much=20 more like the DEC "CP/M" (Z80) board.=C2=A0 In that case there's a simple=20 mailbox register with interrupts wired up on both sides. When using the=20 CP/M board the host is mostly just a dumb serial terminal with some=20 side-channel floppy and file access.=C2=A0 That's why there's no graphics at = all with the CP/M board. --Bjoren --===============3593261825178486904==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Sun Sep 11 17:47:59 2022 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 13:47:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2039617618128600649==" --===============2039617618128600649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following info is found here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/, but I'm pasting here for your reference. VCF=E2=80=99s Annual Swap Meet Vintage Computers & Electronics, Radios, TVs, Amateur Radio, Other Tech October 8 8AM to 2PM (General Public) 7AM (Setup for Vendor) VENDOR REGISTRATION HERE *$5 GENERAL ADMISSION per person!* *ADDRESS*: **OUTDOOR Swap Meet** *GPS location*: Google Maps *Satellite Map*: *Street Map*: Swap Meet Parking *EMAIL*: swapmeet AT vcfed DOT org *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 *Flyer:* 2022-VCF-Swap-Meet-Flyer *VENDOR COST* is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is $10. This time it is an *outdoor *swap meet. *Bring your own table!* Table isn=E2= =80=99t required, but recommended. A space is considered a 18 feet by 9 feet (the general size of a parking space). * Reservation doesn=E2=80=99t guarantee sales. * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must bring their own tables. * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left behind. * Porta Potties on site Free Pile Policy *AFTER THE SWAP MEET, COME VISIT OUR VCF MUSEUM @ INFOAGE!* We are open from 12PM to 5PM: VCF Museum The Vintage Computer Federation Museum is located near the swap meet and is part of InfoAge Science and History museums. InfoAge and VCF Museums are open every Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday from 12PM to 5PM InfoAge museums: infoage.org. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ --===============2039617618128600649==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Sun Sep 11 19:51:37 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:51:24 -0500 Message-ID: <1153691790.2826956.1662925884925@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0897221018670322660==" --===============0897221018670322660== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/11/2022 12:47 PM CDT Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > The following info is found here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/, but I'm > pasting here for your reference. >=20 Interesting. Unless I'm blind, nowhere in that email or the linked flyer doe= s it state what city and state (or country) it's in. --===============0897221018670322660==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Sun Sep 11 20:16:19 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:15:56 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1153691790.2826956.1662925884925@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3609361767297411433==" --===============3609361767297411433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 1:51 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 09/11/2022 12:47 PM CDT Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > The following info is found here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/, but > I'm > > pasting here for your reference. > > > > Interesting. Unless I'm blind, nowhere in that email or the linked flyer > does it state what city and state (or country) it's in. > There is a map to someplace in New Jersey > --===============3609361767297411433==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Sep 11 21:52:12 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:51:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5398025030789693760==" --===============5398025030789693760== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Might I suggest, that in addition to the date, it would be convenient if=20 the subject of the message mentions city and state? There are CLUES, and it is not very hard to track it down, but not=20 everybody happens to know where InfoAge is, so it would be more convenient=20 if you stated it. On Sun, 11 Sep 2022, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: > The following info is found here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/, but I'm > pasting here for your reference. > > VCF=E2=80=99s Annual Swap Meet > > Vintage Computers & Electronics, Radios, TVs, Amateur Radio, Other Tech > October 8 > 8AM to 2PM (General Public) > 7AM (Setup for Vendor) > VENDOR REGISTRATION HERE > > > *$5 GENERAL ADMISSION per person!* > *ADDRESS*: > **OUTDOOR Swap Meet** > *GPS location*: Google Maps > > *Satellite Map*: > *Street Map*: Swap Meet Parking > *EMAIL*: swapmeet AT vcfed DOT org > *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 > *Flyer:* 2022-VCF-Swap-Meet-Flyer > > *VENDOR COST* is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is > $10. > > This time it is an *outdoor *swap meet. *Bring your own table!* Table isn= =E2=80=99t > required, but recommended. > A space is considered a 18 feet by 9 feet (the general size of a parking > space). > * Reservation doesn=E2=80=99t guarantee sales. > * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must > bring their own tables. > * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. > * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left > behind. > * Porta Potties on site > Free Pile Policy > *AFTER THE SWAP MEET, COME VISIT OUR VCF MUSEUM @ INFOAGE!* > > We are open from 12PM to 5PM: VCF Museum > > The Vintage Computer Federation Museum is located near the swap meet and is > part of InfoAge Science and History museums. > > InfoAge and VCF Museums are open every Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday from > 12PM to 5PM > > InfoAge museums: infoage.org. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Jeff Brace > VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President > Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner > Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > https://vcfed.org/ > --===============5398025030789693760==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sun Sep 11 23:26:44 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:26:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2053949185057365745==" --===============2053949185057365745== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Be careful to not walk on the wrong side of the street.=C2=A0 there is=20 something military on the side opposite the hall and guards will quickly=20 come and tell you to stay away! 73, Nigel ve3id Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-09-11 13:47, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: > The following info is found here:https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/, but I'm > pasting here for your reference. > > VCF=E2=80=99s Annual Swap Meet > > Vintage Computers & Electronics, Radios, TVs, Amateur Radio, Other Tech > October 8 > 8AM to 2PM (General Public) > 7AM (Setup for Vendor) > VENDOR REGISTRATION HERE > > > *$5 GENERAL ADMISSION per person!* > *ADDRESS*: > **OUTDOOR Swap Meet** > *GPS location*: Google Maps > > *Satellite Map*: > *Street Map*: Swap Meet Parking > *EMAIL*: swapmeet AT vcfed DOT org > *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 > *Flyer:* 2022-VCF-Swap-Meet-Flyer > > *VENDOR COST* is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is > $10. > > This time it is an *outdoor *swap meet. *Bring your own table!* Table isn= =E2=80=99t > required, but recommended. > A space is considered a 18 feet by 9 feet (the general size of a parking > space). > * Reservation doesn=E2=80=99t guarantee sales. > * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must > bring their own tables. > * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. > * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left > behind. > * Porta Potties on site > Free Pile Policy > *AFTER THE SWAP MEET, COME VISIT OUR VCF MUSEUM @ INFOAGE!* > > We are open from 12PM to 5PM: VCF Museum > > The Vintage Computer Federation Museum is located near the swap meet and is > part of InfoAge Science and History museums. > > InfoAge and VCF Museums are open every Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday from > 12PM to 5PM > > InfoAge museums: infoage.org. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Jeff Brace > VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President > Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner > Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > https://vcfed.org/ --===============2053949185057365745==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Sep 11 23:38:46 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:38:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7442876696423119449==" --===============7442876696423119449== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/11/22 17:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Might I suggest, that in addition to the date, it would be convenient if=20 > the subject of the message mentions city and state? >=20 > There are CLUES, and it is not very hard to track it down, but not=20 > everybody happens to know where InfoAge is, so it would be more=20 > convenient if you stated it. >=20 A simple click on the GPS Location link and you have a map. bill >=20 > On Sun, 11 Sep 2022, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> The following info is found here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/,=20 >> but I'm >> pasting here for your reference. >> >> VCF=E2=80=99s Annual Swap Meet >> >> Vintage Computers & Electronics, Radios, TVs, Amateur Radio, Other Tech >> October 8 >> 8AM to 2PM (General Public) >> 7AM (Setup for Vendor) >> VENDOR REGISTRATION HERE >> =20 >> >> >> *$5 GENERAL ADMISSION per person!* >> *ADDRESS*: >> **OUTDOOR Swap Meet** >> *GPS location*: Google Maps >> =20 >> >> *Satellite Map*: >> *Street Map*: Swap Meet Parking >> *EMAIL*: swapmeet AT vcfed DOT org >> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 >> *Flyer:* 2022-VCF-Swap-Meet-Flyer >> =20 >> >> *VENDOR COST* is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is >> $10. >> >> This time it is an *outdoor *swap meet. *Bring your own table!* Table=20 >> isn=E2=80=99t >> required, but recommended. >> A space is considered a 18 feet by 9 feet (the general size of a parking >> space). >> * Reservation doesn=E2=80=99t guarantee sales. >> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must >> bring their own tables. >> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. >> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be=20 >> left >> behind. >> * Porta Potties on site >> Free Pile Policy >> *AFTER THE SWAP MEET, COME VISIT OUR VCF MUSEUM @ INFOAGE!* >> >> We are open from 12PM to 5PM: VCF Museum >> >> The Vintage Computer Federation Museum is located near the swap meet=20 >> and is >> part of InfoAge Science and History museums. >> >> InfoAge and VCF Museums are open every Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday=20 >> from >> 12PM to 5PM >> >> InfoAge museums: infoage.org. >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> Jeff Brace >> VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President >> Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> https://vcfed.org/ >> --===============7442876696423119449==-- From tosteve@yahoo.com Sun Sep 11 23:39:20 2022 From: steven stengel To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IMSAI 8800b with floppy for sale near Chicago Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 23:39:08 +0000 Message-ID: <49318505.2257646.1662939548613@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <49318505.2257646.1662939548613.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1251290259245388775==" --===============1251290259245388775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone near Chicago want to pick-up a nice Altair 8800B with Altair floppy dr= ive for $1500? It isn't mine, and the working status is unknown. They don't want to ship it. Pictures available here: http://oldcomputers.net/temp/ Let me know and I'll connect you. Thanks- Steve. --===============1251290259245388775==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Sep 12 02:31:19 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:31:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB55801AD8E8BECC07073D5CAEED459=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4365398725703079741==" --===============4365398725703079741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Might I suggest, that in addition to the date, it would be convenient if >> the subject of the message mentions city and state? >> There are CLUES, and it is not very hard to track it down, but not >> everybody happens to know where InfoAge is, so it would be more convenient >> if you stated it. On Sun, 11 Sep 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > A simple click on the GPS Location link and you have a map. 1) putting essential info, such as WHERE (WHEN was included) means that you can decide whether to open the item. 2) Not everybody reads their email in a browser. Yes, I can copy the link, and paste that into my browser, and open it. I said that it would be more CONVENIENT if the subject mentioned WHERE. I didn't say that we couldn't do it, just that it would be more CONVENIENT. When you click a link, and get aa MAP, . . . Is the scale going to be such that it is immediately obvious where it is? Or will it be showing the intersection of Main and Oak street, and you need to "zoom out" six stages to find out what city and state? (an issue that "some other people" sometimes do) 'course, knowing latitude and longitude, I SHOULD know that that's Wall, New Jersey. I should be embarrassed to have to look up such stuff. Or, maybe I should just plug that into my car's GPS, and GO! Sadly, I can't make it to this one. Maybe mentioning InfoAge is a deliberate filter, to just get people who are familiar with it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4365398725703079741==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Sep 12 02:34:59 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:34:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1288753814163285296==" --===============1288753814163285296== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 11 Sep 2022, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Be careful to not walk on the wrong side of the street.=C2=A0 there is some= thing=20 > military on the side opposite the hall and guards will quickly come and tel= l=20 > you to stay away! > 73, > Nigel ve3id My mother once got a flat tire on the George Washington Parkway, in=20 Langley Virginia, right outside the "Bureau Of Public Roads". Four=20 armed "commandos" came out of the woods, and told her to get back in her=20 car, while they changed her tire for her! For those not familiar with that neighborhood, "Bureau Of Public Roads"=20 was a front for a better known organization in Langley. --===============1288753814163285296==-- From sieler@allegrosupport.com Mon Sep 12 04:28:11 2022 From: Stan Sieler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Symbolics (Lisp) manuals, flyers available Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 18:13:15 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7537518699753373832==" --===============7537518699753373832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have 15 manuals, flyers, and miscellaneous papers from/about the Symbolics, Inc computer(s), database, and more. Pictures at http://www.sieler.com/symbolics If anyone's interested, please email me (sieler(a)gmail.com) List: Concordia__Object-Oriented_Document_Management___Symbolic_Inc__copy Introducing_Statice___The_first_Object-Oriented_Database_System__copy Lisp_Machine_Summary Lisp_Machine_Summary__a_bit_rough Program_Development___Help_Facilities Program_Development___Tools_and_Techniques Reference_Guide_to_Symbolics-Lisp Symbolics_Concordia Symbolics_Marketing Symbolics___3600_Symbol_Processing_Systems Symbolics__a_brochure Symbolics__flyer The_Symbolics_3670__Discover_the_power_of_symbolic_processing The_Symbolics_Genera_Programming_Environment__from_a_magazine VERAC_Announced_GeoFlavors___on_Your_Symbolics_Lisp_Machine__flyer thanks, Stan --===============7537518699753373832==-- From sxpert@sxpert.org Mon Sep 12 06:00:16 2022 From: =?utf-8?q?Rapha=C3=ABl?= Jacquot To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Symbolics (Lisp) manuals, flyers available Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 07:52:28 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6039667075009765236==" --===============6039667075009765236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Le 12/09/2022 à 03:13, Stan Sieler via cctalk a écrit : > Hi, > > I have 15 manuals, flyers, and miscellaneous papers from/about the > Symbolics, Inc computer(s), database, and more. > > Pictures at http://www.sieler.com/symbolics > > If anyone's interested, please email me (sieler(a)gmail.com) I'd say @bitsavers on twitter would be the proper person to talk to Raphael > > List: > > Concordia__Object-Oriented_Document_Management___Symbolic_Inc__copy > Introducing_Statice___The_first_Object-Oriented_Database_System__copy > Lisp_Machine_Summary > Lisp_Machine_Summary__a_bit_rough > Program_Development___Help_Facilities > Program_Development___Tools_and_Techniques > Reference_Guide_to_Symbolics-Lisp > Symbolics_Concordia > Symbolics_Marketing > Symbolics___3600_Symbol_Processing_Systems > Symbolics__a_brochure > Symbolics__flyer > The_Symbolics_3670__Discover_the_power_of_symbolic_processing > The_Symbolics_Genera_Programming_Environment__from_a_magazine > VERAC_Announced_GeoFlavors___on_Your_Symbolics_Lisp_Machine__flyer > > thanks, > > Stan --===============6039667075009765236==-- From toby@telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 12 13:07:16 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Symbolics (Lisp) manuals, flyers available Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 09:06:59 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2346012266517696663==" --===============2346012266517696663== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2022-09-12 1:52 a.m., Raphaël Jacquot via cctalk wrote: > > > Le 12/09/2022 à 03:13, Stan Sieler via cctalk a écrit : >> Hi, >> >> I have 15 manuals, flyers, and miscellaneous papers from/about the >> Symbolics, Inc computer(s), database, and more. >> >> Pictures at http://www.sieler.com/symbolics >> >> If anyone's interested, please  email me (sieler(a)gmail.com) > > I'd say @bitsavers on twitter would be the proper person to talk to aek is on this list too. --Toby > > Raphael > >> >> List: >> >> Concordia__Object-Oriented_Document_Management___Symbolic_Inc__copy >> Introducing_Statice___The_first_Object-Oriented_Database_System__copy >> Lisp_Machine_Summary >> Lisp_Machine_Summary__a_bit_rough >> Program_Development___Help_Facilities >> Program_Development___Tools_and_Techniques >> Reference_Guide_to_Symbolics-Lisp >> Symbolics_Concordia >> Symbolics_Marketing >> Symbolics___3600_Symbol_Processing_Systems >> Symbolics__a_brochure >> Symbolics__flyer >> The_Symbolics_3670__Discover_the_power_of_symbolic_processing >> The_Symbolics_Genera_Programming_Environment__from_a_magazine >> VERAC_Announced_GeoFlavors___on_Your_Symbolics_Lisp_Machine__flyer >> >> thanks, >> >> Stan --===============2346012266517696663==-- From sieler@allegrosupport.com Mon Sep 12 20:17:10 2022 From: Stan Sieler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Symbolics (Lisp) manuals, flyers available Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 23:50:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1908475127409810070==" --===============1908475127409810070== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The manuals are claimed, probably, sort of ... it's complicated. The TL;DR is that someone may want to scan some for CHM, and someone else definitely has asked for the originals. So, it's being unraveled now. thanks! Stan --===============1908475127409810070==-- From leec2124@gmail.com Mon Sep 12 21:40:18 2022 From: Lee Courtney To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Symbolics (Lisp) manuals, flyers available Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 14:39:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0116117665188014138==" --===============0116117665188014138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK thanks Stan and Paul. That works as long as the atoms end up being mapped onto bits. And I'm a bag of APL materials behind in scanning and uploading stuff. Lee On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 1:17 PM Stan Sieler via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > The manuals are claimed, probably, sort of ... it's complicated. > > The TL;DR is that someone may want to scan some for CHM, and someone else > definitely has asked for the originals. > So, it's being unraveled now. > > thanks! > > Stan > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell --===============0116117665188014138==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 13 00:37:10 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 20:30:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2538672827308152415==" --===============2538672827308152415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a spreadsheet for things vendors are bringing to the swap meet? Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============2538672827308152415==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Sep 13 06:06:07 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 23:05:50 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4425369905062622268==" --===============4425369905062622268== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. This one as you can see has two. The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU slots is different from that shown in the main board for sale. The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in itself. Thanks Don Resor --===============4425369905062622268==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Sep 13 06:11:20 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 22:21:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4534822471788586974==" --===============4534822471788586974== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. This one as you can see has two. The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU slots is different from that shown in the main board for sale. The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in itself. Thanks Don Resor --===============4534822471788586974==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Tue Sep 13 06:17:26 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 23:17:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAH5ODiRJMahJk5SEpdzI9g8BAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1130103372538158382==" --===============1130103372538158382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks to me like it has two CPU slots. Just can't see any manufacturer markings on the motherboard. It also has a different number of PCI slots and I/O ports than the Gigabyte board on their website. Maybe it's made by a different manufacturer that ended up in the wrong box? Seller has 100% positive feedback and offers free returns, both as a policy and in the description. Maybe give the seller more time to respond? Sellam On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 11:06 PM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 > > According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. This > one > as you can see has two. > > The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by > Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: > > https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov > > Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU slots is > different from that shown in the main board for sale. > > The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in > itself. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > > > > --===============1130103372538158382==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Sep 13 06:31:38 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 23:31:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8676744606238219769==" --===============8676744606238219769== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I emailed the seller on Sep 10. I asked the seller if he/she would send me an image showing the model number = on the MB. Curious the anti-static bag seems to be missing. I suppose it's possible Gigabyte did not keep record of every MB revision. = Too bad the archived images on Gigabyte's website are so blurry too. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk =20 Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 11:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Looks to me like it has two CPU slots. Just can't see any manufacturer marki= ngs on the motherboard. It also has a different number of PCI slots and I/O ports than the Gigabyte b= oard on their website. Maybe it's made by a different manufacturer that ende= d up in the wrong box? Seller has 100% positive feedback and offers free returns, both as a policy a= nd in the description. Maybe give the seller more time to respond? Sellam On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 11:06 PM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 > > According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. =20 > This one as you can see has two. > > The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by=20 > Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: > > https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov > > Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU=20 > slots is different from that shown in the main board for sale. > > The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in=20 > itself. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > > > > --===============8676744606238219769==-- From richardswingwood@gmail.com Tue Sep 13 07:09:43 2022 From: Richard Swingwood To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:09:15 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAHVh8xArd61It+BOCyBbr28BAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1719295926819966279==" --===============1719295926819966279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like a PCChips board. See https://www.gumtree.com/p/memory-motherboards-processors/pc-chips-elpina-m720= -retro-beautiful-dual-slot-1-intel-440lx/1392734474 On Tue, 13 Sep 2022, 07:31 D. Resor via cctalk, wrote: > I emailed the seller on Sep 10. > > I asked the seller if he/she would send me an image showing the model > number on the MB. Curious the anti-static bag seems to be missing. > > I suppose it's possible Gigabyte did not keep record of every MB > revision. Too bad the archived images on Gigabyte's website are so blurry > too. > > > Don Resor > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 11:17 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: Sellam Abraham > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? > > Looks to me like it has two CPU slots. Just can't see any manufacturer > markings on the motherboard. > > It also has a different number of PCI slots and I/O ports than the > Gigabyte board on their website. Maybe it's made by a different > manufacturer that ended up in the wrong box? > > Seller has 100% positive feedback and offers free returns, both as a > policy and in the description. > > Maybe give the seller more time to respond? > > Sellam > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 11:06 PM D. Resor via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 > > > > According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. > > This one as you can see has two. > > > > The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by > > Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: > > > > https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov > > > > Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU > > slots is different from that shown in the main board for sale. > > > > The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in > > itself. > > > > Thanks > > > > Don Resor > > > > > > > > > > > > --===============1719295926819966279==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Tue Sep 13 08:21:39 2022 From: Don R To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 01:21:27 -0700 Message-ID: <7C51A711-3D73-4C12-8ACF-DF8A6F81CD40@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0643989387294090842==" --===============0643989387294090842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With a slightly different mix of electrolytic capacitors near the slot socket= s. Thanks Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Sep 13, 2022, at 12:09 AM, Richard Swingwood via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFLooks like a PCChips board. >=20 > See > https://www.gumtree.com/p/memory-motherboards-processors/pc-chips-elpina-m7= 20-retro-beautiful-dual-slot-1-intel-440lx/1392734474 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022, 07:31 D. Resor via cctalk, >> wrote: >>=20 >> I emailed the seller on Sep 10. >>=20 >> I asked the seller if he/she would send me an image showing the model >> number on the MB. Curious the anti-static bag seems to be missing. >>=20 >> I suppose it's possible Gigabyte did not keep record of every MB >> revision. Too bad the archived images on Gigabyte's website are so blurry >> too. >>=20 >>=20 >> Don Resor >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk >> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 11:17 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >> Cc: Sellam Abraham >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? >>=20 >> Looks to me like it has two CPU slots. Just can't see any manufacturer >> markings on the motherboard. >>=20 >> It also has a different number of PCI slots and I/O ports than the >> Gigabyte board on their website. Maybe it's made by a different >> manufacturer that ended up in the wrong box? >>=20 >> Seller has 100% positive feedback and offers free returns, both as a >> policy and in the description. >>=20 >> Maybe give the seller more time to respond? >>=20 >> Sellam >>=20 >> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 11:06 PM D. Resor via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. >>>=20 >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 >>>=20 >>> According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. >>> This one as you can see has two. >>>=20 >>> The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by >>> Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: >>>=20 >>> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov >>>=20 >>> Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU >>> slots is different from that shown in the main board for sale. >>>=20 >>> The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in >>> itself. >>>=20 >>> Thanks >>>=20 >>> Don Resor >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============0643989387294090842==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Tue Sep 13 08:34:52 2022 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:34:30 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3C!=26!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABO5wTM7/NRDgk/3nPo+uv7Cg?= =?utf-8?q?AAAEAAAAJ5PoQ3kAfRHoXyRVN/7BiwBAAAAAA=3D=3D=40sonic=2Enet=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2941737322704288970==" --===============2941737322704288970== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe this pc chips m720 motherboard? http://hw-museum.cz/mb/69/pc-chips-m720 On Tue, Sep 13, 2022, 1:11 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 > > According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. This > one > as you can see has two. > > The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by > Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: > > https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov > > Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU slots is > different from that shown in the main board for sale. > > The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in > itself. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > > > --===============2941737322704288970==-- From mazzinia@tin.it Tue Sep 13 09:48:48 2022 From: mazzinia@tin.it To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 11:24:56 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8813701623047330195==" --===============8813701623047330195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's this one https://archive.org/details/main-board-pii-ii-i-440-lx-agpset-v-1.2 I think -----Original Message----- From: John Herron via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2022 10:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: John Herron Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Maybe this pc chips m720 motherboard? http://hw-museum.cz/mb/69/pc-chips-m720 On Tue, Sep 13, 2022, 1:11 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 > > According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. > This one as you can see has two. > > The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by > Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: > > https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov > > Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU > slots is different from that shown in the main board for sale. > > The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in > itself. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > > > --===============8813701623047330195==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Sep 13 13:47:48 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Connor from the VCFMW? Emulex QD21 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:47:35 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6799080358224486229==" --===============6799080358224486229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I talked to Connor at the VCFMW about a QD21 that I need to pull data off a retired hard drive. Connor, can you contact me? If somebody knows who this Connor is (tall slender guy with short dark hair) can you give me his email? Thanks, Jon --===============6799080358224486229==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Sep 13 16:24:11 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connor from the VCFMW? Emulex QD21 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 10:23:25 -0600 Message-ID: <825e1c79-d1f8-7604-07d5-bab3c581a18f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7248370290338651015==" --===============7248370290338651015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/13/22 7:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > If somebody knows who this Connor is (tall slender guy with short dark > hair) can you give me his email? I suspect that I know who he is. -- At least I know a Connor that is big into the retro computing / mainframe world. I have forwarded your email to him rather than sharing his email address. Here's hoping that he will reach out to you. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============7248370290338651015==-- From bob@jfcl.com Tue Sep 13 20:04:52 2022 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Replacement tachometer photosensors for RA8x drives? Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 12:54:41 -0700 Message-ID: <012101d8c7aa$a9d90710$fd8b1530$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8464015078041806694==" --===============8464015078041806694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've discovered that three of my four RA8x drives (one 82 and two 81s) now refuse to spin up. All the failing drives give "SPIN ERROR" as the reason and I've discovered, by an combination of educated guessing and parts swapping with the working drive, that all three have bad optical sensors for the tachometer disk. Surfing around I see that this is a known problem. Apparently the compound that was originally used to pot these sensors turns opaque over time and, being as they're optical sensors, that really reduces their effectiveness. I've seen some reports of people trying to repair the sensors by either sanding off a layer of the epoxy potting compound, or even trying to dissolve it somehow, but that seems to be a little bit hit or miss. Doesn't seem like these should be hard to replace though. They're just an infrared LED and a phototransistor in a cute plastic case, and that technology is still pretty common today. Has anybody found a replacement for them? Does anybody have any suggestions? Thanks, Bob --===============8464015078041806694==-- From matt@9track.net Tue Sep 13 20:42:54 2022 From: Matt Burke To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacement tachometer photosensors for RA8x drives? Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 21:42:38 +0100 Message-ID: <747997da-571e-04f9-5eb1-73c9b482a099@9track.net> In-Reply-To: <012101d8c7aa$a9d90710$fd8b1530$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0237173250169570672==" --===============0237173250169570672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13/09/2022 20:54, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Has anybody found a replacement for them? Does anybody have any > suggestions? > I had one of these that was not working but in my case it seemed to be the LED that had failed. I struggled to find a direct replacement in the correct case so I repaired the original one. It was not potted inside but just glued together so fairly easy to get apart. I then replaced the LED, which is just a through hole part soldered directly to the wires. It's a very fiddly job but certainly possible. The only other modification that may be required is to install a larger value resistor to reduce the current for the new LED. Matt --===============0237173250169570672==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Tue Sep 13 21:25:16 2022 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Bubbl-Tec bubble memory (QBus) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 13:09:01 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9099782386910231479==" --===============9099782386910231479== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just acquired the several Bubbl-Tec bubble memory boards for QBus, and was = wondering if anyone had manuals or more information than the couple of web pa= ges I've found with high-level descriptions: MBC-11A bubble memory controller MBB-11A bubble memory board for use with MBC-11A QBI-11C bubble memory board QSB-11A bubble memory board with RX01/02 emulation It looks like I can just drop the QSB-11A into a system and it should work as= if it's an RX01 attached to a controller, but the other boards appear to nee= d cabling and possibly jumpers to configure them for use, and maybe custom dr= ivers/code too. -- Chris --===============9099782386910231479==-- From jon@jonworld.com Wed Sep 14 11:25:49 2022 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 12:25:25 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6372978496397077926==" --===============6372978496397077926== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, I have a TVI-921C at the museum. I power it on and it beeps continuously. One long, solid tone that does not stop until I power it off. How do I start diagnosing this? -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============6372978496397077926==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Sep 14 11:32:43 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 07:32:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3100789539638190518==" --===============3100789539638190518== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Disconnect the speaker. On Wed, Sep 14, 2022, 7:25 AM Jonathan Katz via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > All, > > I have a TVI-921C at the museum. I power it on and it beeps > continuously. One long, solid tone that does not stop until I power it > off. How do I start diagnosing this? > > -- > -Jon > +44 7792 149029 > --===============3100789539638190518==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Sep 14 11:44:52 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 07:44:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4061222288221081155==" --===============4061222288221081155== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 14 Sep 2022, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > I have a TVI-921C at the museum. I power it on and it beeps > continuously. One long, solid tone that does not stop until I power it > off. How do I start diagnosing this? Check the power supply voltages. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============4061222288221081155==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Wed Sep 14 16:33:50 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 17:12:54 +0100 Message-ID: <01SHYY1XQQLG8WWHK8@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5248748250378510266==" --===============5248748250378510266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 14 Sep 2022, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a TVI-921C at the museum. I power it on and it beeps >> continuously. One long, solid tone that does not stop until I power it >> off. How do I start diagnosing this? > > Check the power supply voltages. > After checking the voltages, if it has a microprocessor, check if it is being held reset and if the clock is running. If it is a big lump of logic, it would probably be a lot easier to deal with if you can find some sort of service manual / circuit diagram / circuit description. Regards, Peter Coghlan. --===============5248748250378510266==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Sep 14 16:55:54 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 12:55:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SHYY1XQQLG8WWHK8@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0823615454435207253==" --===============0823615454435207253== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My snarky reply aside, in all seriousness...I discovered that I have one of those terminals. As others have said it could be the display circuit transformer's power but not if it's a "beep" vs. a "squeal". If you are getting a continuous beep it could be that you have a stuck key, I'd verify that by carefully detaching the keyboard from the main board (with the power off) and then powering on. If the beep is gone check your keyboard. Assuming it's not a stuck key, I'd guess you have a motherboard logic error. I'd carefully remove the ROMS one at a time and then start testing chips. Here is mine https://www.vintagecomputer.net/televideo/TVI-912C/Televideo_TVI-912C_pre-res= tore.jpg Bill On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 12:33 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Sep 2022, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I have a TVI-921C at the museum. I power it on and it beeps > >> continuously. One long, solid tone that does not stop until I power it > >> off. How do I start diagnosing this? > > > > Check the power supply voltages. > > > > After checking the voltages, if it has a microprocessor, check if it is > being > held reset and if the clock is running. > > If it is a big lump of logic, it would probably be a lot easier to deal > with if you can find some sort of service manual / circuit diagram / > circuit description. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > --===============0823615454435207253==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Sep 14 17:06:28 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 10:06:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SHYY1XQQLG8WWHK8@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7514402937841037827==" --===============7514402937841037827== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lots of Televideo docs scanned thanks to good old Al ==> https://bitsavers.computerhistory.org/pdf/televideo/ Nothing for the 921 but there is an operator's manual for the 922 which may shed some light on what the continuous beep might mean. Sellam On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 9:33 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Sep 2022, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I have a TVI-921C at the museum. I power it on and it beeps > >> continuously. One long, solid tone that does not stop until I power it > >> off. How do I start diagnosing this? > > > > Check the power supply voltages. > > > > After checking the voltages, if it has a microprocessor, check if it is > being > held reset and if the clock is running. > > If it is a big lump of logic, it would probably be a lot easier to deal > with if you can find some sort of service manual / circuit diagram / > circuit description. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > --===============7514402937841037827==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Wed Sep 14 17:13:14 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 13:12:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6996600548115127335==" --===============6996600548115127335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ahhh... Televideo. One of the best terminals I ever used was the Televideo 910. Especially on Unix where it seemed Televideo went out of their way to make TERMCAP based applications work really well. bill --===============6996600548115127335==-- From barry@csguy.org Wed Sep 14 17:47:08 2022 From: Barry Hills To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Please unsubscribe: barry@csguy.org Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 10:24:01 -0700 Message-ID: <342A3CAF-F50D-43D8-B71C-B25840265DF0@csguy.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5169088715565002922==" --===============5169088715565002922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --===============5169088715565002922==-- From toby@telegraphics.com.au Wed Sep 14 18:03:39 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: TVI-921C Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 14:03:27 -0400 Message-ID: <0fc1fd37-afef-bf33-8367-a584b059be94@telegraphics.com.au> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3061528235337511183==" --===============3061528235337511183== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-09-14 1:06 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Lots of Televideo docs scanned thanks to good old Al =3D=3D> > https://bitsavers.computerhistory.org/pdf/televideo/ >=20 > Nothing for the 921 but there is an operator's manual for the 922 which may > shed some light on what the continuous beep might mean. >=20 I have the "Televideo 912/920" service binder but I know it has stuff=20 for other models inside. There is a similar binder on bitsavers I=20 thought, but each one is probably slightly different. I can check inside=20 it to see if there's anything relevant. (I own a TVI-920B.=20 https://www.flickr.com/photos/qu1j0t3/37328445552/in/photolist-2ms1g25-ZKXCwz= -ZHeUUw-YFfEiC-ZveVwW-ZaeiZm-ZveFZA-YSAJ5Y-YSA3mQ-XQyMpE-XQyzYd-BPejR7-P2zGrL= -P2tdPo=20 ) --Toby > Sellam >=20 > On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 9:33 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> Mike Loewen wrote: >>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2022, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> I have a TVI-921C at the museum. I power it on and it beeps >>>> continuously. One long, solid tone that does not stop until I power it >>>> off. How do I start diagnosing this? >>> >>> Check the power supply voltages. >>> >> >> After checking the voltages, if it has a microprocessor, check if it is >> being >> held reset and if the clock is running. >> >> If it is a big lump of logic, it would probably be a lot easier to deal >> with if you can find some sort of service manual / circuit diagram / >> circuit description. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. >> --===============3061528235337511183==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri Sep 16 04:11:00 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 9-pin mini-DIN serial? Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2022 21:01:59 -0700 Message-ID: <915e9a74-bbd9-0685-b6fe-d548d8cccded@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2509945846919459776==" --===============2509945846919459776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trying to identify two cables I ended up with, one to DE-9 and one to Mac 8-p= in mini-DIN. The other end on both is a male 9-pin mini-DIN. These clearly look like serial cables, but to what? A cursory Google didn't come up with anything obvious. They don't fit the Mac GeoPort or Sun SPARC serial ports because the pins are slightly out of place. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Don't let 'em drive you crazy when it's within walking distance. ---------= -- --===============2509945846919459776==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Sep 16 09:31:34 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-pin mini-DIN serial? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 04:31:22 -0500 Message-ID: <1869850344.3880919.1663320682674@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <915e9a74-bbd9-0685-b6fe-d548d8cccded@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2199418017095338882==" --===============2199418017095338882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 09/15/2022 11:01 PM CDT Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Trying to identify two cables I ended up with, one to DE-9 and one to Mac 8= -pin > mini-DIN. The other end on both is a male 9-pin mini-DIN. These clearly look > like serial cables, but to what? A cursory Google didn't come up with anyth= ing > obvious. They don't fit the Mac GeoPort or Sun SPARC serial ports because t= he > pins are slightly out of place. >=20 Possibly to an Epson PX-8. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/epson/PX-8/PX8-tech-manual.ch1.pdf https://www.ebay.com/itm/115323960568?chn=3Dps&var=3D415373727804&norover=3D1= &mkevt=3D1&mkrid=3D711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=3D2&itemid=3D415373727804_1153239= 60568&targetid=3D1263104805526&device=3Dc&mktype=3D&googleloc=3D1025946&poi= =3D&campaignid=3D14859008593&mkgroupid=3D130497710760&rlsatarget=3Dpla-126310= 4805526&abcId=3D9300678&merchantid=3D586215512&gclid=3DCj0KCQjwvZCZBhCiARIsAP= XbajuD3HkJhRxVpydiFZWGvGqfFiH__CTdpmeWiefyr0Mv4EMIgG1OKDEaAgMgEALw_wcB Will --===============2199418017095338882==-- From mcquiggi@sfu.ca Fri Sep 16 16:09:36 2022 From: Kevin McQuiggin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Test Message Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:06:38 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3879946438569911690==" --===============3879946438569911690== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pardon the test message, I have just re-subscribed to the list but have seen = no traffic on it for a couple of days. Kevin McQuiggin --===============3879946438569911690==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Fri Sep 16 16:15:28 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Test Message Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:15:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7157722742169363031==" --===============7157722742169363031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 0x06 On Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 9:09 AM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Pardon the test message, I have just re-subscribed to the list but have > seen no traffic on it for a couple of days. > > Kevin McQuiggin --===============7157722742169363031==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri Sep 16 16:23:00 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-pin mini-DIN serial? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3a41bb51-a63a-f5d2-fdca-354c4f717b7b@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: <1869850344.3880919.1663320682674@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5249974722621698393==" --===============5249974722621698393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Trying to identify two cables I ended up with, one to DE-9 and one to Mac = 8-pin >> mini-DIN. The other end on both is a male 9-pin mini-DIN. These clearly lo= ok >> like serial cables, but to what? A cursory Google didn't come up with anyt= hing >> obvious. They don't fit the Mac GeoPort or Sun SPARC serial ports because = the >> pins are slightly out of place. >=20 > Possibly to an Epson PX-8. An interesting thought, but the PDF manual you linked shows the PX-8 serial port (pp16-17) is 8-pin mini-DIN. This is what the connector on these looks like, including the metal "bar" at the top: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MiniDIN-9_Diagram.svg --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- If you use Arabic numerals, THE TERRORISTS WIN ---------------------------= -- --===============5249974722621698393==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 16 16:31:27 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-pin mini-DIN serial? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 17:31:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3a41bb51-a63a-f5d2-fdca-354c4f717b7b@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4633169567022922445==" --===============4633169567022922445== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Possibly to an Epson PX-8. > > An interesting thought, but the PDF manual you linked shows the PX-8 serial > port (pp16-17) is 8-pin mini-DIN. There was an obscure UK computer made by Psion, the MC400 or something like that, and I sort-of remember it had an odd serial connector, possibly a 9 pin mini-DIN. But I am not sure it ever made it across the Pond. -tony --===============4633169567022922445==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 16 16:31:52 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Test Message Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 17:31:32 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2262457580942474783==" --===============2262457580942474783== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 5:09 PM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk wrote: > > Pardon the test message, I have just re-subscribed to the list but have see= n no traffic on it for a couple of days. QSL -tony --===============2262457580942474783==-- From computerdoc@sc.rr.com Fri Sep 16 16:37:48 2022 From: computerdoc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Test Message Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 12:30:27 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7678470085235241618==" --===============7678470085235241618== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see your test message! On Fri, 2022-09-16 at 08:06 -0700, Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk wrote: > Pardon the test message, I have just re-subscribed to the list but have see= n no traffic on it for a couple of days. >=20 > Kevin McQuiggin --===============7678470085235241618==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Fri Sep 16 18:53:31 2022 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Test Message Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 14:53:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3215354776682174962==" --===============3215354776682174962== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see it (and I observed the same thing - just rejoined after having subscription problems stretching back to May, and didn't see any traffic). -ethan On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:09 PM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk wrote: > > Pardon the test message, I have just re-subscribed to the list but have see= n no traffic on it for a couple of days. > > Kevin McQuiggin --===============3215354776682174962==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Fri Sep 16 19:38:05 2022 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-pin mini-DIN serial? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 15:37:50 -0400 Message-ID: <5df63db8-541f-d859-e143-7952533b1ade@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7689734395686683462==" --===============7689734395686683462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Psion bought my former employer, Teklogix, Inc., of Mississauga, ON., to provide early wireless connectivity for industrial warehouse and inventory control. I wouldn't mind betting some of its products were found attached to Teklogix wireless devices!  (This is all before 802.11 etc) cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-09-16 12:31, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> Possibly to an Epson PX-8. >> An interesting thought, but the PDF manual you linked shows the PX-8 serial >> port (pp16-17) is 8-pin mini-DIN. > There was an obscure UK computer made by Psion, the MC400 or something > like that, and I sort-of remember it had an odd serial connector, > possibly a 9 pin mini-DIN. But I am not sure it ever made it across > the Pond. > > -tony --===============7689734395686683462==-- From fjkraan@electrickery.nl Sat Sep 17 18:47:38 2022 From: Fred Jan Kraan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-pin mini-DIN serial? (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 20:38:30 +0200 Message-ID: <21ddffa6-e49b-a986-8011-65db2f27986b@electrickery.nl> In-Reply-To: <4255ddef-d995-a456-35c5-ec33fcde2863@electrickery.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4343311554500435644==" --===============4343311554500435644== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/16/22 6:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > These clearly look like serial cables, but to what? The Epson PX-16 used a 9-pin mini-DIN for the serial port: https://electrickery.nl/comp/px16/px16org.html. Fred Jan --===============4343311554500435644==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat Sep 17 19:48:35 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-pin mini-DIN serial? Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 21:48:13 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5df63db8-541f-d859-e143-7952533b1ade@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8209097907181837650==" --===============8209097907181837650== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 16 Sept 2022 at 21:37, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > Psion bought my former employer, Teklogix, Inc., of Mississauga, ON., to > provide early wireless connectivity for industrial warehouse and > inventory control. And Zebra bought Psion Teklogix: https://www.zebra.com/us/en/products/mobile-computers/handheld.html -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8209097907181837650==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Sat Sep 17 20:30:39 2022 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Data Systems Designs floppy interface cross-compatibility? Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 16:30:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8207964498177125423==" --===============8207964498177125423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, all, While getting ready for VCF Midwest etc, I have been spending a lot of hobby time in the past year digging out various DEC minicomputer items and testing/repairing them. To that end, I've been staring at a DSD480 on top of a PDP-8 rack. It's one of the ones with the DSD 26-pin interface. My question is that since there are several different devices with that connector, are any of them compatible with each other? Specifically, here are the DSD interfaces with a 26-pin connector: 802130 DSD210 PDP-11 Interface (26 pin) (2130) 802131 DSD440 DSD210 PDP-8 Interface (26 pin) (2131) 802132 DSD210 LSI-11 Interface (26 pin) (2132) 804430 DSD440 PDP-11 PDP-11 Interface (26 pin) (4430) 804432 DSD440 LSI-11 LSI-11 Interface (26 pin) (4432) 808830 DSD880 (SA850/SA1004) PDP11 Interface Card (26 pin) (8830) 808832 DSD880 (SA850/SA1004) LSI-11 Interface Card (26 pin) (8832) 808836 DSD880/20/30 (SA850/Q240) LSI-11 Interface Card (26 pin) (8836) It looks like the 2131 board is Omnibus and works with either the DSD440 or DSD210, but on the PDP-11, can the 883x interfaces work with older drives or do they only work with the DSD880 floppy/hard drive box? I remember where/when I got this DSD480, so it seems likely to me that I have a PDP-11/34 with an 4430 board in it. I could probably use an 2131 board just so I have an Omnibus interface. I also have an 808836 board but do _not_ have a DSD880. I've found the prints on bitsavers that cover the DSD440/480 interface so I know what signals are there, but I haven't found the equivalent docs for the DSS880, just user guides. Anyone here know enough about DSD products to shed some light? Thanks, -ethan --===============8207964498177125423==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sun Sep 18 06:30:34 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data Systems Designs floppy interface cross-compatibility? Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 23:30:17 -0700 Message-ID: <018bac48-fd01-7682-389d-ca2c7dd72c82@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7564960456896290545==" --===============7564960456896290545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/17/22 13:30, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Greetings, all, > > While getting ready for VCF Midwest etc, I have been spending a lot of > hobby time in the past year digging out various DEC minicomputer items > and testing/repairing them. To that end, I've been staring at a DSD480 > on top of a PDP-8 rack. It's one of the ones with the DSD 26-pin > interface. My question is that since there are several different > devices with that connector, are any of them compatible with each > other? > > Specifically, here are the DSD interfaces with a 26-pin connector: > > 802130 DSD210 PDP-11 Interface (26 pin) (2130) > 802131 DSD440 DSD210 PDP-8 Interface (26 pin) (2131) > 802132 DSD210 LSI-11 Interface (26 pin) (2132) > > 804430 DSD440 PDP-11 PDP-11 Interface (26 pin) (4430) > 804432 DSD440 LSI-11 LSI-11 Interface (26 pin) (4432) > > 808830 DSD880 (SA850/SA1004) PDP11 Interface Card (26 pin) (8830) > 808832 DSD880 (SA850/SA1004) LSI-11 Interface Card (26 pin) (8832) > 808836 DSD880/20/30 (SA850/Q240) LSI-11 Interface Card (26 pin) (8836) I'm getting ready to move to KC and my pile of DSD is back there. I have both PDP8 varieties and PDP11.  One complete system from Sellam which hopefully contain data, etc.  Dual booted for a friend he helped maintain it. A guy in West Wendove NV had a number of subsystems  and I have all of them.  We'll have to make a date to do a prisoner exchange, and I'll loan / trade you what I've got, and hopefully come up with working systems. I've got two of the units with the SA-1000 drives as well. Will take a bit of sorting, will have it on the list to get some stuff and visit you later this year, but probably next year. Glad you're looking into this.  I don't think I've got enough to run much on DEC disk hardware. I think among a pile of 8/As I got from sellam there are DSD cards, but it was all unsorted.  Hand over money load and drive with a pile is the state of that lot. I have makings of 6 or 8 8/A's would like a couple, but DSD again would be nice. thanks Jim > It looks like the 2131 board is Omnibus and works with either the > DSD440 or DSD210, but on the PDP-11, can the 883x interfaces work with > older drives or do they only work with the DSD880 floppy/hard drive > box? > > I remember where/when I got this DSD480, so it seems likely to me that > I have a PDP-11/34 with an 4430 board in it. I could probably use an > 2131 board just so I have an Omnibus interface. I also have an 808836 > board but do _not_ have a DSD880. > > I've found the prints on bitsavers that cover the DSD440/480 interface > so I know what signals are there, but I haven't found the equivalent > docs for the DSS880, just user guides. Anyone here know enough about > DSD products to shed some light? > > Thanks, > > -ethan --===============7564960456896290545==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Sep 19 01:11:26 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] KIM-1 Boards of the Past Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 01:11:04 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3871636076202139791==" --===============3871636076202139791== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I finally herded together the extant pictures of the KIM-1s I've had in the p= ast and did a writeup: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2022/09/18/kim1-boards-past TL;DR is that during college I found a KIM-1 in an employer's warehouse. Late= r, I found a box with five more! These were all Virginia Tech surplus, and on= e of them is likely the first KIM-1 used for classroom instruction there. I'd= intended to sell some of them, since who needs six, right? Unfortunately, I = was forced to sell all of them, including the one I'd intended to keep for my= self, due to economic/financial situations after graduation. I've never seen anyone post about these particular machines, and I haven't se= en them exhibited at VCF East, VCF Midwest, or HOPE. None of the sellers cont= acted me about them after the sale concluded. Is anyone here the owner of one= of these particular KIM-1s? Do you know the owner? Did you use KIM-1s while = at Virginia Tech? Please let me know! Thanks, Jonathan --===============3871636076202139791==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Mon Sep 19 16:15:52 2022 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM 5100 emulation Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 11:15:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5751901295916796052==" --===============5751901295916796052== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, we've extracted the Executive ROS of the IBM 5100. The PALM opcodes between the 5100 and 5110 should be identical. So we have used Christian Corti emulator code to run that Executive ROS (under Wintel environment). However, the CRC checks and transition to the Language ROS apparently works a little differently on the IBM 5100 (compared to the 5110). Not the CRC check method itself, but perhaps the addressing used to look for the Common ROS. In the 5110, the Common ROS is more obviously a separate device/card. For the 5100, I'm not exactly sure where the Common ROS is (part of the Executive ROS card, or part of the BASIC ROS card?). I've seen some APL-only 5100's, so I think that system could operate with the BASIC card (but maybe that device slot still would have the Common ROS segments?). Hoping someone is available to maybe give suggestions or tips in how to get this emulator code going with the IBM 5100 ROS's (see EMUV5110 in github; trying to use that to run the IBM 5100 ROS's that are at archive.org). NOTE: The Executive ROS for the IBM 5100 is a 64K binary (I think the last 20K of that is blank, all 0's). In contrast, the Executive ROS for the IBM 5110 is 32K. --===============5751901295916796052==-- From Tim@Rikers.org Tue Sep 20 01:22:33 2022 From: Tim Riker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 19:14:16 -0600 Message-ID: <14e98029-d7b9-aac0-8346-57d22f67ad76@Rikers.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6201781939626984429==" --===============6201781939626984429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, I'm not getting around to working on this hardware. Another potential move coming up. What's the interest level out there for HP 1000/2000 hardware? Computers: * HP-2116A 8kB - the original HP computer. There is only one other that I am aware of in existence. David Collins got theirs up and running. Mine still blows fuses on startup. * http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=95 * HP-2100A - untested * HP-2108 - working last I checked 64kB (I might keep this one) * HP-2112 - working last I checked 64kB Others: * HP-7901A disc drive - untested (2.5mB) * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply (5mB) * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply * HP-2748B paper tape reader - spins up, does not seem to pass data * CCC tape punch - untested * HP-2761A Optical Mark Reader - punch card reader. loading wheel turned to goo long ago. probably restorable * card slot expansion chassis. I forget the part number. * dual 3 1/2" drive in hpio chassis might someday work with these systems * non-hp 19" rack holding most equipment * lot's of peripheral cards including interfaces for disc drives, punch, tape, card, etc. Photos on Google Photos. My Gallery App is down at the moment. https://photos.app.goo.gl/ry648oCejfmjnuNf9 I'd guess it's about 1500 pounds of hardware. So, pickup in Salt Lake only. --===============6201781939626984429==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Tue Sep 20 02:08:51 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 22:07:45 -0400 Message-ID: <055f01d8cc95$c69ab250$53d016f0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <055f01d8cc95$c69ab250$53d016f0$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2607350863026716960==" --===============2607350863026716960== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I recently acquired a Solid State Music SB-1 from which all the chips had been removed. I've reinstalled all of the chips (I located an SSM2000) and I've been trying to figure out why this board crashes my computers. The conclusion that I've come to is rather astounding. The board specifies two 74ls85 4 bit binary comparator chips to perform address decoding. The designers of this board seem to have had incorrect pinouts for it. Every source that I can find specifies: B3 1 16 VCC AB (in) 4 13 A2 A>B (out) 5 12 A1 A=B (out) 6 11 B1 AB (in) 4 13 A>B (out) A To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:35:15 -0600 Message-ID: <3eb668e8-0730-77b2-7668-14655de8c695@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <055f01d8cc95$c69ab250$53d016f0$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4179484172399991525==" --===============4179484172399991525== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-09-19 8:07 p.m., William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I recently acquired a Solid State Music SB-1 from which all the chips had > been removed. I've reinstalled all of the chips (I located an SSM2000) and > I've been trying to figure out why this board crashes my computers. The > conclusion that I've come to is rather astounding. The board specifies two > 74ls85 4 bit binary comparator chips to perform address decoding. The > designers of this board seem to have had incorrect pinouts for it. Every > source that I can find specifies: > > B3 1 16 VCC > A A=B (in) 3 14 B2 > A>B (in) 4 13 A2 > A>B (out) 5 12 A1 > A=B (out) 6 11 B1 > A GND 8 9 B0 > > The 7485s that I was able to get have this pinout. BUT! The SB-1 is > designed as: > > B2 1 16 VCC > A2 2 15 A3 > A=B (out) 3 14 B3 > A>B (in) 4 13 A>B (out) > A A=B (in) 6 11 B0 > A1 7 10 A0 > GND 8 9 B1 > > I Ohm'd out the board to verify this and it matches the schematic here: > https://wiki.theretrowagon.com/wiki/Solid_State_Music_SB1 > What the heck??? Did the pinout of the 7485 just arbitrarily change at some > point? Was this some competition between manufacturers? Is there any way > to get the "right" 7485? > They are both right. 7485,74LS85,74S85 top pin out. 74L85 the bottom pin out. SB-1 TTL data book 1985. > > Thanks, > Bill > > I suspect they used the L for low input loading for the address bus. The 74C85 (fairchild ) would be the sane substitute for the 74L85. Ben. --===============4179484172399991525==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Sep 20 03:00:54 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:00:36 -0700 Message-ID: <9e585e6a-b9a4-c40d-7948-3b4c4d51fb67@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <055f01d8cc95$c69ab250$53d016f0$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0791488853665012577==" --===============0791488853665012577== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/19/22 19:07, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: Have a look at the 74L85 (not LS). it's one of those oddities that some of the "L" 74 series logic have different pinouts than the standard/LS/S/H/F/.... One notable aspect is that it's possible to wire-OR the L series outputs--something that you don't want to do with the others. --Chuck > Hi, > > I recently acquired a Solid State Music SB-1 from which all the chips had > been removed. I've reinstalled all of the chips (I located an SSM2000) and > I've been trying to figure out why this board crashes my computers. The > conclusion that I've come to is rather astounding. The board specifies two > 74ls85 4 bit binary comparator chips to perform address decoding. The > designers of this board seem to have had incorrect pinouts for it. Every > source that I can find specifies: > > B3 1 16 VCC > A A=B (in) 3 14 B2 > A>B (in) 4 13 A2 > A>B (out) 5 12 A1 > A=B (out) 6 11 B1 > A GND 8 9 B0 > > The 7485s that I was able to get have this pinout. BUT! The SB-1 is > designed as: > > B2 1 16 VCC > A2 2 15 A3 > A=B (out) 3 14 B3 > A>B (in) 4 13 A>B (out) > A A=B (in) 6 11 B0 > A1 7 10 A0 > GND 8 9 B1 > > I Ohm'd out the board to verify this and it matches the schematic here: > https://wiki.theretrowagon.com/wiki/Solid_State_Music_SB1 > What the heck??? Did the pinout of the 7485 just arbitrarily change at some > point? Was this some competition between manufacturers? Is there any way > to get the "right" 7485? > > > > Thanks, > Bill > > > > > -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer --===============0791488853665012577==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Tue Sep 20 04:18:38 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2022 12:18:11 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3eb668e8-0730-77b2-7668-14655de8c695@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8178365396277195151==" --===============8178365396277195151== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a few US based Ebay sellers of the 74L85. Tom On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 10:50 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-09-19 8:07 p.m., William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I recently acquired a Solid State Music SB-1 from which all the chips had > > been removed. I've reinstalled all of the chips (I located an SSM2000) > and > > I've been trying to figure out why this board crashes my computers. The > > conclusion that I've come to is rather astounding. The board specifies > two > > 74ls85 4 bit binary comparator chips to perform address decoding. The > > designers of this board seem to have had incorrect pinouts for it. Every > > source that I can find specifies: > > > > B3 1 16 VCC > > A > A=B (in) 3 14 B2 > > A>B (in) 4 13 A2 > > A>B (out) 5 12 A1 > > A=B (out) 6 11 B1 > > A > GND 8 9 B0 > > > > The 7485s that I was able to get have this pinout. BUT! The SB-1 is > > designed as: > > > > B2 1 16 VCC > > A2 2 15 A3 > > A=B (out) 3 14 B3 > > A>B (in) 4 13 A>B (out) > > A > A=B (in) 6 11 B0 > > A1 7 10 A0 > > GND 8 9 B1 > > > > I Ohm'd out the board to verify this and it matches the schematic here: > > https://wiki.theretrowagon.com/wiki/Solid_State_Music_SB1 > > What the heck??? Did the pinout of the 7485 just arbitrarily change at > some > > point? Was this some competition between manufacturers? Is there any > way > > to get the "right" 7485? > > > They are both right. > 7485,74LS85,74S85 top pin out. > 74L85 the bottom pin out. SB-1 > TTL data book 1985. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill > > > > > I suspect they used the L for low input loading > for the address bus. The 74C85 (fairchild ) would be the sane > substitute for the 74L85. > Ben. > > --===============8178365396277195151==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 20 04:51:47 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 22:51:35 -0600 Message-ID: <3b71a2ad-87cd-22c4-951f-c09d9312f51d@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9203391826472471958==" --===============9203391826472471958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-09-19 10:18 p.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > There are a few US based Ebay sellers of the 74L85. > > Tom But most ebay sellers, from the USA seem to sell a item for $6.00 and $75 shipping to Canada. China $2 and $3 shipping. With Covid all shipping is several weeks. Ben. --===============9203391826472471958==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Tue Sep 20 05:27:33 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2022 13:27:08 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3b71a2ad-87cd-22c4-951f-c09d9312f51d@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3678050286039589212==" --===============3678050286039589212== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And I thought shipping to Australia (opposite side of the planet) was expensive. Shipping from the US to Canada should be dirt cheap as mail can move via trains not air freight. $75 shipping for an IC is crazy no matter what the destination is (except maybe Mars). Tom On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 12:51 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-09-19 10:18 p.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > There are a few US based Ebay sellers of the 74L85. > > > > Tom > But most ebay sellers, from the USA seem to sell a item for $6.00 and > $75 shipping to Canada. China $2 and $3 shipping. With Covid all > shipping is several weeks. > Ben. > > > > --===============3678050286039589212==-- From jrr@flippers.com Tue Sep 20 07:01:23 2022 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:54:57 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3b71a2ad-87cd-22c4-951f-c09d9312f51d@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3368989145847276587==" --===============3368989145847276587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ben, I buy lots of stuff from eBay US sellers and most are willing to check/f= ix shipping costs.=20 If not then I use a drop-box service where the item is shipped to Oregon, and= then reshipped to me for a not too horrible cost.=20 Lastly, I=E2=80=99ll be back at my shop in Burnaby in a couple of days and ca= n check my inventory of TTL chips - might well have your 74L85, and postage i= s pretty cheap within Canada. I=E2=80=99ll try not to hose you too badly on t= he chip cost! John :-#)# > On Sep 20, 2022, at 5:52 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2022-09-19 10:18 p.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> There are a few US based Ebay sellers of the 74L85. >> Tom > But most ebay sellers, from the USA seem to sell a item for $6.00 and > $75 shipping to Canada. China $2 and $3 shipping. With Covid all shipping i= s several weeks. > Ben. >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============3368989145847276587==-- From Tim@Rikers.org Wed Sep 21 05:15:35 2022 From: Tim Riker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2022 23:15:17 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <14e98029-d7b9-aac0-8346-57d22f67ad76@Rikers.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7918144826808354232==" --===============7918144826808354232== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I added some old videos to the Google Photos archive. Example: https://photos.app.goo.gl/2k1f9kQhbrFnU3J79 I should make some higher res versions. :) Sources here: https://rikers.org/hp2100/ Full gallery link again: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ry648oCejfmjnuNf9 On 9/19/2022 7:14 PM, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: > All, > > I'm not getting around to working on this hardware. Another potential > move coming up. What's the interest level out there for HP 1000/2000 > hardware? > > Computers: > >  * HP-2116A 8kB - the original HP computer. There is only one other >    that I am aware of in existence. David Collins got theirs up and >    running. Mine still blows fuses on startup. >  * http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=95 >  * HP-2100A - untested >  * HP-2108 - working last I checked 64kB (I might keep this one) >  * HP-2112 - working last I checked 64kB > > Others: > >  * HP-7901A disc drive - untested (2.5mB) >  * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply (5mB) >  * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply >  * HP-2748B paper tape reader - spins up, does not seem to pass data >  * CCC tape punch - untested >  * HP-2761A Optical Mark Reader - punch card reader. loading wheel >    turned to goo long ago. probably restorable >  * card slot expansion chassis. I forget the part number. >  * dual 3 1/2" drive in hpio chassis might someday work with these > systems >  * non-hp 19" rack holding most equipment >  * lot's of peripheral cards including interfaces for disc drives, >    punch, tape, card, etc. > > Photos on Google Photos. My Gallery App is down at the moment. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/ry648oCejfmjnuNf9 > > I'd guess it's about 1500 pounds of hardware. So, pickup in Salt Lake > only. --===============7918144826808354232==-- From spacewar@gmail.com Wed Sep 21 06:21:56 2022 From: Eric Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5100 emulation Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 00:21:33 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2179008977828037700==" --===============2179008977828037700== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've poked around inside the 5100 some years ago, but most of my information came from the Maintenance Information Manual, and I only verified a little of it relating to the executable ROS. The executable ROS is split between a half card in slot H2, which is required for all 5100 models, and an APL-only executable ROS half card in slot H4. The most significant address bit (SAB 0) selects between the two. The BASIC/IO/Diagnostic executable ROS starts at address 0000, and the APL executable ROS starts at 8000. It appears that the BASIC/IO/Diagnostic executable ROS occupies most or all of the address space allocated to it, 0000..7fff space (32KB). The non-executable ROS cards are: slot E2 (full size): ROS control, and common and language ROS, all models - it appears that this is addressed ABOVE (at higher addresses than) the BASIC ROS slot C4 (half card): BASIC ROS slots C2, D2, D4 (half cards): APL ROS The MIM shows the non-executable ROS as divided into banks of 30720 bytes (0x7800). I can believe that the amounts of memory on a particular card might be related to that, e.g., 15 chips of 2KB each, but the decode on the ROS Control card is shown as decoding consecutive ranges of that size, rather than e.g. units of 0x8000. Two decodes go to each non-executable ROS card, so it appears that the 0x7800 bytes of a bank are not actually implemented on a single card. Something bizarre seems to be going on, or possibly the documentation isn't 100% accurate. I think the non-executable ROS is selected slightly differently than in the 5110. The non-executable ROS is device address 1. The MIM says in one place that in a control operation, data bit 4 selects common and BASIC, while data bit 5 selects APL. Bits 4 and 5 come from bits 12 and 13 of the control microinstuction. I'm not convinced that the logic diagrams match that description. --===============2179008977828037700==-- From mark@wickensonline.co.uk Wed Sep 21 10:51:32 2022 From: Mark Wickens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM 5100 emulation Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 11:51:08 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4289640478981410795==" --===============4289640478981410795== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The DEC Legacy Event is running this year from November 12th-13th 2022 in Windermere, UK. Head over to http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/ for more information. Hope to see you there. Regards, MArk. On Mon, 19 Sept 2022 at 17:15, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Greetings, we've extracted the Executive ROS of the IBM 5100. The PALM > opcodes between the 5100 and 5110 should be identical. So we have > used Christian Corti emulator code to run that Executive ROS (under Wintel > environment). However, the CRC checks and transition to the Language ROS > apparently works a little differently on the IBM 5100 (compared to the > 5110). > > Not the CRC check method itself, but perhaps the addressing used to look > for the Common ROS. In the 5110, the Common ROS is more obviously a > separate device/card. For the 5100, I'm not exactly sure where the Common > ROS is (part of the Executive ROS card, or part of the BASIC ROS card?). > I've seen some APL-only 5100's, so I think that system could operate with > the BASIC card (but maybe that device slot still would have the Common ROS > segments?). > > Hoping someone is available to maybe give suggestions or tips in how to get > this emulator code going with the IBM 5100 ROS's (see EMUV5110 in github; > trying to use that to run the IBM 5100 ROS's that are at archive.org). > > NOTE: The Executive ROS for the IBM 5100 is a 64K binary (I think the last > 20K of that is blank, all 0's). In contrast, the Executive ROS for the IBM > 5110 is 32K. > --=20 M0NOM/P ADIF Processor --===============4289640478981410795==-- From bbrown314@comcast.net Wed Sep 21 11:17:12 2022 From: "Bbrown314@comcast.net" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 06:08:04 -0500 Message-ID: <5DF1D048-E14C-44EF-955A-C2F6FACD75B6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8119368347547030253==" --===============8119368347547030253== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You=E2=80=99ve got some nice Hp goodies. Unfortunately I=E2=80=99m a bit far from salt lake (I=E2=80=99m in the chicago area). The 2100a is particularly interesting but it all looks cool! -Bob > On Sep 21, 2022, at 12:15 AM, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI added some old videos to the Google Photos archive. Example: >=20 > https://photos.app.goo.gl/2k1f9kQhbrFnU3J79 >=20 > I should make some higher res versions. :) >=20 > Sources here: >=20 > https://rikers.org/hp2100/ >=20 > Full gallery link again: >=20 > https://photos.app.goo.gl/ry648oCejfmjnuNf9 >=20 >> On 9/19/2022 7:14 PM, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: >> All, >>=20 >> I'm not getting around to working on this hardware. Another potential move= coming up. What's the interest level out there for HP 1000/2000 hardware? >>=20 >> Computers: >>=20 >> * HP-2116A 8kB - the original HP computer. There is only one other >> that I am aware of in existence. David Collins got theirs up and >> running. Mine still blows fuses on startup. >> * http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=3D95 >> * HP-2100A - untested >> * HP-2108 - working last I checked 64kB (I might keep this one) >> * HP-2112 - working last I checked 64kB >>=20 >> Others: >>=20 >> * HP-7901A disc drive - untested (2.5mB) >> * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply (5mB) >> * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply >> * HP-2748B paper tape reader - spins up, does not seem to pass data >> * CCC tape punch - untested >> * HP-2761A Optical Mark Reader - punch card reader. loading wheel >> turned to goo long ago. probably restorable >> * card slot expansion chassis. I forget the part number. >> * dual 3 1/2" drive in hpio chassis might someday work with these systems >> * non-hp 19" rack holding most equipment >> * lot's of peripheral cards including interfaces for disc drives, >> punch, tape, card, etc. >>=20 >> Photos on Google Photos. My Gallery App is down at the moment. >>=20 >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ry648oCejfmjnuNf9 >>=20 >> I'd guess it's about 1500 pounds of hardware. So, pickup in Salt Lake only. --===============8119368347547030253==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Wed Sep 21 15:23:42 2022 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Data Systems Designs floppy interface cross-compatibility? Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 11:23:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <018bac48-fd01-7682-389d-ca2c7dd72c82@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5315980525829134949==" --===============5315980525829134949== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 2:30 AM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I'm getting ready to move to KC and my pile of DSD is back there. Hi, Jim, Cool. > I have both PDP8 varieties and PDP11. One complete system from Sellam > which hopefully contain data, etc. Dual booted for a friend he helped mai= ntain it. I have boxes of floppies that were the residue from a rescue in Champaign where Jack Rubin (who was closer) got first pick, and I got the things he didn't want/didn't fit in his car. From the directory slips and markings on the box, I suspect many of these floppies are double-sided and were used on DSD drives. Mix of PDP-8 and PDP-11 contents. > A guy in West Wendove NV had a number of subsystems and > I have all of them. We'll have to make a date to do a prisoner > exchange, and I'll loan / trade you what I've got, and hopefully come up wi= th working systems. Sounds like a plan. I'm not in a massive hurry, I just wanted to see if I had all the parts on hand to do _something_ > I've got two of the units with the SA-1000 drives as well. I've read the docs but haven't seen those in person. Kind of handy for a smallish PDP-11 setup. > Will take a bit of sorting, will have it on the list to get some stuff and > visit you later this year, but probably next year. Since it's already late September, I will just expect next year, but if something on your end changes, just say the word. I do have some "blackout dates" for various weekends through the end of the year - travel between here and NYC or here and Chicago, etc. > Glad you're looking into this. I don't think I've got enough > to run much on DEC disk hardware. I have an abundance of PDP-11 and PDP-8 gear. I'm trying to see what (still) works and fix what does not. So far, I have been entirely unable to even so much as read an 8" DEC floppy this year. I keep taking different stabs at it. Part of the problem is that I have mostly older (70s/80s) gear and the newer stuff (90s) doesn't work with old peripherals. Case in point, my DSD 8838 card has written in sharpie on the bag "does not work with PDP-11/73". That's not unusual. There are a lot of older Qbus cards that don't work with "MicroPDP systems" (usually meaning J-11). > I think among a pile of 8/As I got from sellam there are > DSD cards, but it was all unsorted. Hand over money load and drive > with a pile is the state of that lot. Right. > I have makings of 6 or 8 8/A's would like a couple, but DSD again > would be nice. I have three hex-wide Omnibus boxes, I'd like to keep 2 and sell 1 to someone, and I have two quad-wide Omnibus boxes -8/e and -8m) and I may want to get both of them running. I have an assortment of drives and peripheral cards, enough to load up all the machines, if they are all functional. Where the DSD drive comes into play is that it can format RX01 media (I have boxes of blank-blanks for CP/M machines) and mine (DSD480) can do double-sided media, which is only important to me for reading double-sided media. I wouldn't want to depend on a working double-sided drive for an operational setup. For real DEC drives, I have a number of RX01 and RX02 drive units and a box of spare parts (motors, belts, door latches, etc). Let me know when any of your plans crystalize. Most of my travel plans involve events like VCF so I can't haul lots of things because I already have a load of event-related materials. I also don't usually get out past Chicago going West. I haven't driven to St. Louis in well over 20 years. -ethan --===============5315980525829134949==-- From gtoal@gtoal.com Wed Sep 21 21:34:07 2022 From: Graham Toal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Looking for Fred N van Kempen ... (pdp11, GUTS) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 16:33:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0712717102859462069==" --===============0712717102859462069== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 20 years ago I loaned Fred van Kempen a pdp11 disk pack (RK11?) to try recovering for me. We think it may have the Dutch "GUTS" operating system (Groningen University Timesharing System - https://gtoal.com/history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/*.pdf ) and sources on it. My Dad carefully hand-carried it to the Netherlands from Scotland by boat and bicycle!, avoiding any magnetic scanning on the way. I never heard back from Fred and every now and then (some years apart) I try to contact him but all the mail addresses I've tried go unreplied or bounce. Does anyone here know him and have a reliable way to contact him? He might be in the USA now and the only indication I have that he's still alive is a github update in Jan of this year (and happily a lack of hits when looking for an obituary!). I'm assuming he never extracted the disk contents because if he had I'm sure he would have contacted me. If the disk has not degraded too much over the last 20 years since I last saw it, I'ld still like to recover it and so I'ld like to get it back from Fred and give it to whoever else might be able to read it. Thanks, Graham --===============0712717102859462069==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Wed Sep 21 21:51:36 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Fred N van Kempen ... (pdp11, GUTS) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:51:13 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3006495788874059834==" --===============3006495788874059834== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Graham. I last communicated with Fred at least a year ago (might've been two, actually). Last I heard from him he was moving into a nursing home as he was apparently debilitated as a result of a car accident some years ago. I believe the last time he reached out to me was via Facebook. Later today I'll log in and see if I can find a contact for Fred and get back to you. I believe he's on my "friend" list there. Sellam On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 2:34 PM Graham Toal via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > 20 years ago I loaned Fred van Kempen a pdp11 disk pack (RK11?) to try > recovering for me. We think it may have the Dutch "GUTS" operating system > (Groningen University Timesharing System - > https://gtoal.com/history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/*.pdf ) and > sources on it. My Dad carefully hand-carried it to the Netherlands from > Scotland by boat and bicycle!, avoiding any magnetic scanning on the way. > > I never heard back from Fred and every now and then (some years apart) I > try to contact him but all the mail addresses I've tried go unreplied or > bounce. > > Does anyone here know him and have a reliable way to contact him? He might > be in the USA now and the only indication I have that he's still alive is a > github update in Jan of this year (and happily a lack of hits when looking > for an obituary!). > > I'm assuming he never extracted the disk contents because if he had I'm > sure he would have contacted me. If the disk has not degraded too much > over the last 20 years since I last saw it, I'ld still like to recover it > and so I'ld like to get it back from Fred and give it to whoever else might > be able to read it. > > Thanks, > > Graham > --===============3006495788874059834==-- From gtoal@gtoal.com Thu Sep 22 00:01:39 2022 From: Graham Toal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Looking for Fred N van Kempen ... (pdp11, GUTS) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 19:01:13 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7618769591069088497==" --===============7618769591069088497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah. Thank you. And that would explain the loss of communication. Graham On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 4:51 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Graham. > > I last communicated with Fred at least a year ago (might've been two, > actually). Last I heard from him he was moving into a nursing home as he > was apparently debilitated as a result of a car accident some years ago. > --===============7618769591069088497==-- From spacewar@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 05:51:13 2022 From: Eric Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 23:50:47 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3199201560851258287==" --===============3199201560851258287== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 07:51 geneb via cctalk wrote: > The question I have is how did a contemporary system deal with the > combination of a disk with both index windows and a drive with both index > sensors? > They didn't deal with it at all. It didn't work. No normal 8-inch floppy disks have both index holes in the jacket. If you convert a disk from SS to DS, or vice versa, by punching the other index hole in the jacket, you have to cover the original, unless you're going to use it in a drive that has only one index sensor (typically an SS drive). --===============3199201560851258287==-- From mcquiggi@sfu.ca Thu Sep 22 12:38:16 2022 From: "Kevin McQuiggin (SFU)" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] pdp-11/45 and pdp-11/34 Available - Free! (Vancouver, BC) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 05:37:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5135153522102955622==" --===============5135153522102955622== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All: I=E2=80=99ve been a collector of old DEC systems for about 30 years. I haven= =E2=80=99t been active on the list for the last decade or so due to work, but= am =E2=80=9Csurfacing=E2=80=9D now as my wife and I are moving and I need to= find a good home for two of my systems and their peripherals. I can follow up with photos et cetera if necessary, but the subject line real= ly says it all: a functional 11/45 in a 6=E2=80=99 standard DEC rack, and an = 11/34 in a shorter DEC rack. =20 Both systems are functional. The 11/45 has an RK05. The 11/34 has a TS03. = I also have a TU80 9-track tape drive (short rack), and dual RL02 drives in a= nother short rack that go with the systems. These would come with a couple d= ozen tapes, and about 10 RL02 packs. I have a few RK05 packs as well. I would like these systems to go to someone who understands them and will use= them. As members on this list will know, they exemplify computing in the 19= 70s through the 1980s, and it would be nice to keep them running for educatio= nal and historical purposes. The systems and peripherals are free, but they must be picked up. I cannot s= hip, nor do I have time to separate components. =20 If I cannot find a home for these systems then they will, unfortunately, be h= eaded to the metal recycler. I have tried museum donation but bureaucracy ge= ts in the way and decisions take far too long. Hence I am offering the syste= ms here on the list. The deadline for pickup is October 15th. This is a hard deadline as we must = vacate our house. I would take the machines with me if I could! Kevin Sent from my iPad --===============5135153522102955622==-- From mcquiggi@sfu.ca Thu Sep 22 15:32:34 2022 From: Kevin McQuiggin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 11/45 and 11/34 Taken! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 08:32:20 -0700 Message-ID: <1E218383-0CDC-4353-BE67-5697BD802FEF@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7173255551125920702==" --===============7173255551125920702== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All: I=E2=80=99m pleased to report that my 11/45 and 11/34 which were in need of a= new home have been taken by another collector here in BC. They will be off = to a very good home! Thanks for reading my post. Kevin --===============7173255551125920702==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 15:59:56 2022 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 11/45 and 11/34 Taken! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 11:59:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1E218383-0CDC-4353-BE67-5697BD802FEF@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5627778257097764806==" --===============5627778257097764806== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nooooo if only I had skipped my office meeting this morning! -- Anders On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 11:32 AM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi All: > > I’m pleased to report that my 11/45 and 11/34 which were in need of a new > home have been taken by another collector here in BC. They will be off to > a very good home! > > Thanks for reading my post. > > Kevin > > --===============5627778257097764806==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 16:06:34 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 11/45 and 11/34 Taken! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:06:12 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1E218383-0CDC-4353-BE67-5697BD802FEF@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6605456287183008597==" --===============6605456287183008597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I bet! Finding a home would take all of 5 minutes on this list. "-) On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 11:32 AM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi All: > > I’m pleased to report that my 11/45 and 11/34 which were in need of a new > home have been taken by another collector here in BC. They will be off to > a very good home! > > Thanks for reading my post. > > Kevin > > --===============6605456287183008597==-- From glen.slick@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 16:23:00 2022 From: Glen Slick To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 11/45 and 11/34 Taken! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 09:22:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1E218383-0CDC-4353-BE67-5697BD802FEF@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0869386642038096970==" --===============0869386642038096970== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 8:32 AM Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk wrote: > > Hi All: > > I=E2=80=99m pleased to report that my 11/45 and 11/34 which were in need of= a new home have been taken by another collector here in BC. They will be of= f to a very good home! > Good news. I really didn't need to spend a day driving up to Vancouver from Seattle to collect these, and then try to make room to get them set up. A few years ago when I still had some room I would have been all over trying to collect these. --===============0869386642038096970==-- From jrr@flippers.com Thu Sep 22 16:55:15 2022 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 09:55:02 -0700 Message-ID: <79f3d40c-645a-c768-c6d7-4043f02ebb7a@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: <3b71a2ad-87cd-22c4-951f-c09d9312f51d@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5527032911273937969==" --===============5527032911273937969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022/09/19 9:51 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-09-19 10:18 p.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> There are a few US based Ebay sellers of the 74L85. >> >> Tom > But most ebay sellers, from the USA seem to sell a item for $6.00 and > $75 shipping to Canada. China $2 and $3 shipping. With Covid all > shipping is several weeks. > Ben. > How many do you need? I have one or more of 74LS85, 74C85, 74HC85, and 7485... Email me directly with which version you prefer. These are all NOS parts, not pulls. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============5527032911273937969==-- From peveep@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 17:33:19 2022 From: Peter Van Peborgh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:05:26 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1760943799379561034==" --===============1760943799379561034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier and I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay postage/freight. Any offers? Any offers? Peter PS Please don't shout at me! --===============1760943799379561034==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Thu Sep 22 17:47:43 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:47:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3505297370587180510==" --===============3505297370587180510== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is sacrelege!=20 In all honesty, real front panels are expensive. An 11/40 front panel sold re= cently on eBay for $2000! (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771 )=20 They=E2=80=99re also hard to come by, and most that have them are going to be= very reluctant to part with them. I suggest, if you want a display piece, the very good replicas done by Oscar = Vermeulen. He offers both a PDP-11 and PDP-8 replica kit, powered by a Rasber= ry Pi and the SimH emulator. He is also working on a PDP-10 replica as well. These are reasonably priced, and very good quality, working, scaled replicas = of their respective systems. (https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/p= idp-11 ) It=E2=80=99s worth noting that other replica front panel systems are availabl= e as well, including, but not limited to the Altairduino 8080 > On Sep 22, 2022, at 6:05 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data > General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier and > I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and > of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > postage/freight. > Any offers? Any offers? > Peter >=20 > PS Please don't shout at me! --===============3505297370587180510==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Thu Sep 22 19:04:31 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:04:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3394717251471475179==" --===============3394717251471475179== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 07:51 geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> The question I have is how did a contemporary system deal with the >> combination of a disk with both index windows and a drive with both index >> sensors? >> > > They didn't deal with it at all. It didn't work. No normal 8-inch floppy > disks have both index holes in the jacket. If you convert a disk from SS to > DS, or vice versa, by punching the other index hole in the jacket, you have > to cover the original, unless you're going to use it in a drive that has > only one index sensor (typically an SS drive). I've got at least three boxes of NOS Dysan disks with both of those index holes present, so they certainly were made commercially. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3394717251471475179==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 22 19:22:07 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 7485 chip history??? (Solid State Music SB-1) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:21:45 -0700 Message-ID: <7d6d668f-3619-37fb-464a-736dc23926cc@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <79f3d40c-645a-c768-c6d7-4043f02ebb7a@flippers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0870321376765056884==" --===============0870321376765056884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/22/22 09:55, John Robertson via cctalk wrote: > On 2022/09/19 9:51 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 2022-09-19 10:18 p.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >>> There are a few US based Ebay sellers of the 74L85. >>> >>> Tom >> But most ebay sellers, from the USA seem to sell a item for $6.00 and >> $75 shipping to Canada. China $2 and $3 shipping. With Covid all >> shipping is several weeks. >> Ben. >> > How many do you need? I have one or more of 74LS85, 74C85, 74HC85, and > 7485... The ICs that you've listed as having (74LS85, 74C85, 74HC85, and 7485) aren't what the OP needs. The 74L85 is a different animal with a different pinout from the chips you've listed. --Chuck --===============0870321376765056884==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Sep 22 19:23:07 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:22:51 -0700 Message-ID: <98480e1b-9f75-0016-44ae-8ecaaeee5c08@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0651036363417633030==" --===============0651036363417633030== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/22/22 12:04, geneb via cctalk wrote: only one index sensor (typically an SS drive). > > I've got at least three boxes of NOS Dysan disks with both of those > index holes present, so they certainly were made commercially. Yup. I've got similar NOS ones also. --Chuck --===============0651036363417633030==-- From rdowns@radix.co.uk Thu Sep 22 19:36:30 2022 From: Robin Downs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 19:36:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98480e1b-9f75-0016-44ae-8ecaaeee5c08@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0848028758945012797==" --===============0848028758945012797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking at the circuit of the Qume drive, it is certainly not designed to wor= k with disks with both holes, I can only imagine that drives only expected di= sks to be one or the other when it was designed, but it could easily be modif= ied with a three position On-Off-On switch to disable either index sensor, or= to have both working as usual... Robin -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk =20 Sent: 22 September 2022 20:23 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! On 9/22/22 12:04, geneb via cctalk wrote: only one index sensor (typically an SS drive). >=20 > I've got at least three boxes of NOS Dysan disks with both of those=20 > index holes present, so they certainly were made commercially. Yup. I've got similar NOS ones also. --Chuck --===============0848028758945012797==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 19:42:44 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 15:42:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6954461260444984722==" --===============6954461260444984722== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Look for less well-known mini computers. On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 1:47 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > It is sacrelege! > > In all honesty, real front panels are expensive. An 11/40 front panel sold > recently on eBay for $2000! (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771 < > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771>) > > They’re also hard to come by, and most that have them are going to be very > reluctant to part with them. > > I suggest, if you want a display piece, the very good replicas done by > Oscar Vermeulen. He offers both a PDP-11 and PDP-8 replica kit, powered by > a Rasberry Pi and the SimH emulator. He is also working on a PDP-10 replica > as well. > > These are reasonably priced, and very good quality, working, scaled > replicas of their respective systems. ( > https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 < > https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11>) > > It’s worth noting that other replica front panel systems are available as > well, including, but not limited to the Altairduino 8080 > > > On Sep 22, 2022, at 6:05 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data > > General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > > Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier > and > > I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and > > of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > > postage/freight. > > Any offers? Any offers? > > Peter > > > > PS Please don't shout at me! > > --===============6954461260444984722==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Sep 22 20:32:12 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:31:58 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98480e1b-9f75-0016-44ae-8ecaaeee5c08@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7414771159729532990==" --===============7414771159729532990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >>> They didn't deal with it at all. It didn't work. No normal 8-inch >>> floppy disks have both index holes in the jacket. If you convert a >>> disk from SS to DS, or vice versa, by punching the other index hole in >>> the jacket, you have to cover the original, unless you're going to use >>> it in a drive that has only one index sensor (typically an SS drive). On 9/22/22 12:04, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> I've got at least three boxes of NOS Dysan disks with both of those >> index holes present, so they certainly were made commercially. On Thu, 22 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Yup. I've got similar NOS ones also. Since those are not "normal", or at least uncommon, please send one such disk to Eric for his collection of odd stuff. It would have made sense for a drive with both sensors to have jumpers, that could, if needed often, be wired to a switch. When I repunched 8" disks, I put a write-enable tab over the old hole. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============7414771159729532990==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu Sep 22 20:37:29 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 16:37:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5670545737400607336==" --===============5670545737400607336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's how Cromemco shipped their distribution disks, with both holes and a sticker to cover the unused hole with arrows on it to show which way was which. m On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 4:32 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > >>> They didn't deal with it at all. It didn't work. No normal 8-inch > >>> floppy disks have both index holes in the jacket. If you convert a > >>> disk from SS to DS, or vice versa, by punching the other index hole in > >>> the jacket, you have to cover the original, unless you're going to use > >>> it in a drive that has only one index sensor (typically an SS drive). > > On 9/22/22 12:04, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> I've got at least three boxes of NOS Dysan disks with both of those > >> index holes present, so they certainly were made commercially. > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Yup. I've got similar NOS ones also. > > Since those are not "normal", or at least uncommon, please send one such > disk to Eric for his collection of odd stuff. > > It would have made sense for a drive with both sensors to have jumpers, > that could, if needed often, be wired to a switch. > > When I repunched 8" disks, I put a write-enable tab over the old hole. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com > --===============5670545737400607336==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Sep 22 20:38:54 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 8" disk question! Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 16:38:41 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3025497893522799935==" --===============3025497893522799935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/22/22 16:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >>>> They didn't deal with it at all. It didn't work. No normal 8-inch >>>> floppy disks have both index holes in the jacket. If you convert a >>>> disk from SS to DS, or vice versa, by punching the other index hole >>>> in the jacket, you have to cover the original, unless you're going >>>> to use it in a drive that has only one index sensor (typically an SS >>>> drive). > > On 9/22/22 12:04, geneb via cctalk wrote: >>> I've got at least three boxes of NOS Dysan disks with both of those >>> index holes present, so they certainly were made commercially. > > On Thu, 22 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Yup.  I've got similar NOS ones also. > > Since those are not "normal", or at least uncommon, please send one such > disk to Eric for his collection of odd stuff. > > It would have made sense for a drive with both sensors to have jumpers, > that could, if needed often, be wired to a switch. > > When I repunched 8" disks, I put a write-enable tab over the old hole. > Never having seen anything like this myself, I would be interested in how the box is labeled!! bill --===============3025497893522799935==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Sep 23 02:04:29 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 22:04:14 -0400 Message-ID: <4c4a847d-e1a9-ae31-bcf2-10b5b493e6b9@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0715628115953533016==" --===============0715628115953533016== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable True. I wound up giving away an HP1000 with front panel, because no one=20 wanted it. So they do exist out there... C On 9/22/2022 3:42 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Look for less well-known mini computers. >=20 > On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 1:47 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk > wrote: >=20 >> It is sacrelege! >> >> In all honesty, real front panels are expensive. An 11/40 front panel sold >> recently on eBay for $2000! (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771 < >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771>) >> >> They=E2=80=99re also hard to come by, and most that have them are going to= be very >> reluctant to part with them. >> >> I suggest, if you want a display piece, the very good replicas done by >> Oscar Vermeulen. He offers both a PDP-11 and PDP-8 replica kit, powered by >> a Rasberry Pi and the SimH emulator. He is also working on a PDP-10 replica >> as well. >> >> These are reasonably priced, and very good quality, working, scaled >> replicas of their respective systems. ( >> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 < >> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11>) >> >> It=E2=80=99s worth noting that other replica front panel systems are avail= able as >> well, including, but not limited to the Altairduino 8080 >> >>> On Sep 22, 2022, at 6:05 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data >>> General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. >>> Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier >> and >>> I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and >>> of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay >>> postage/freight. >>> Any offers? Any offers? >>> Peter >>> >>> PS Please don't shout at me! >> >> --===============0715628115953533016==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 02:45:22 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:44:50 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8353880077348397054==" --===============8353880077348397054== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their man cave or living room wall. These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. For some time I have been looking for a PDP-8/e front panel PCB needed to make a machine complete. Until now I had no luck. No doubt there are dozens of these hanging off people's walls. Like Peter I don't care if the PCB is functional, but unlike Peter I can and will repair it. Peter please consider the negative impact of your hobby on historically valuable computer systems. Tom On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 1:33 AM Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data > General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier and > I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and > of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > postage/freight. > Any offers? Any offers? > Peter > > PS Please don't shout at me! > --===============8353880077348397054==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri Sep 23 03:17:17 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:16:57 -0700 Message-ID: <989c1a06-d21e-5b90-2601-c7542e434373@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5498112593695285576==" --===============5498112593695285576== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/22/22 10:05, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data > General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier and > I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and > of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > postage/freight. > Any offers? Any offers? > Peter > > PS Please don't shout at me! I exhibited a front panel collection display at VCF West about 4 years ago.  It exists not because of a collection, but as spare parts.  Also brought one attached to one of my machines. there were two from a friend's collection of systems as well.  Sorry not to help out, but suggest you buy the machine, not just a front panel.  That way when they are no longer something to have to display, they can be passed on as a part of functional machines later. I did grab a couple of parts panels, and also did find a panel bezel on Ebay, but they weren't cheap, and by what usually happens, the machines showed up from somewhere else later after I acquired them. thanks Jim --===============5498112593695285576==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 03:31:33 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 23:31:11 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <989c1a06-d21e-5b90-2601-c7542e434373@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8423804261280431126==" --===============8423804261280431126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:17 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 9/22/22 10:05, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > > I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data > > General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > > Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier > and > > I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and > > of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > > postage/freight. > > Any offers? Any offers? > > Peter > > > > PS Please don't shout at me! > I exhibited a front panel collection display at VCF West about 4 years > ago. It exists not because of a collection, but as spare parts. Also > brought one attached to one of my machines. > > there were two from a friend's collection of systems as well. Sorry not > to help out, but suggest you buy the machine, not just a front panel. > That way when they are no longer something to have to display, they can > be passed on as a part of functional machines later. > > I did grab a couple of parts panels, and also did find a panel bezel on > Ebay, but they weren't cheap, and by what usually happens, the machines > showed up from somewhere else later after I acquired them. > > thanks > Jim > The worst is taking the front panel or keyboard from a complete system or terminal and discarding it because you solely collect these things, but at this point there are a few system-less front panels and keyboards and it's a "thing" enough that it's not totally unreasonable to find them, especially if you have the money. The damage has been done, nothing you can do about it now, at least something of the old hardware exists. And, I am sure there are those who rescued the front panel from a system that was going to be destroyed. I once was given a Burroughs 1700 front panel...anyone have a panel-less 1700 out there? Interesting philosophical discussion Bill --===============8423804261280431126==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 23 03:41:46 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:41:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6979416394237364707==" --===============6979416394237364707== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cut a hole in the wall. Mount the front panel on the wall, with the machine, still connected to it, on the other side of the wall. (like an ancient New Yorker cartoon, of an elephant head on the wall, with the rest of the elephant standing on the other side of the wall.) I had an ex, decades ago, who collected automobile hood ornaments. She pondered a lot about the effect on automobile restoration. But, a couple of times, she provided hood ornaments to help people finish restorations. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============6979416394237364707==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 04:05:06 2022 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 00:04:34 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3780244111040052609==" --===============3780244111040052609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LOL I've got a B2700 front panel & console; I doubt that there are many 2700s out there complete except for the front panel but if you do have one send me a note ;-) m On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 11:31 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:17 PM jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On 9/22/22 10:05, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > > > I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a > *Data > > > General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > > > Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier > > and > > > I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged > and > > > of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > > > postage/freight. > > > Any offers? Any offers? > > > Peter > > > > > > PS Please don't shout at me! > > I exhibited a front panel collection display at VCF West about 4 years > > ago. It exists not because of a collection, but as spare parts. Also > > brought one attached to one of my machines. > > > > there were two from a friend's collection of systems as well. Sorry not > > to help out, but suggest you buy the machine, not just a front panel. > > That way when they are no longer something to have to display, they can > > be passed on as a part of functional machines later. > > > > I did grab a couple of parts panels, and also did find a panel bezel on > > Ebay, but they weren't cheap, and by what usually happens, the machines > > showed up from somewhere else later after I acquired them. > > > > thanks > > Jim > > > > The worst is taking the front panel or keyboard from a complete system or > terminal and discarding it because you solely collect these things, but at > this point there are a few system-less front panels and keyboards and it's > a "thing" enough that it's not totally unreasonable to find them, > especially if you have the money. The damage has been done, nothing you > can do about it now, at least something of the old hardware exists. And, I > am sure there are those who rescued the front panel from a system that was > going to be destroyed. > > I once was given a Burroughs 1700 front panel...anyone have a panel-less > 1700 out there? > > Interesting philosophical discussion > > Bill > --===============3780244111040052609==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 23 04:44:15 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 22:44:01 -0600 Message-ID: <63e468fd-c46a-fac1-f3b3-feb660cc11df@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8284401158348712488==" --===============8284401158348712488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-09-22 8:44 p.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately > sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their > man cave or living room wall. > These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk > platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result > depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. > For some time I have been looking for a PDP-8/e front panel PCB needed to > make a machine complete. Until now I had no luck. No doubt there are dozens > of these hanging off people's walls. > Like Peter I don't care if the PCB is functional, but unlike Peter I can > and will repair it. > Peter please consider the negative impact of your hobby on historically > valuable computer systems. > Tom Well for the longest time old computers were free, or found in the dumpster. I don't see his hobby impacting ours, as buying vintage computers is fair, you have the $$$ or you don't. Today the RARE APPLE XYZ sold for $1,000,000 clams. So why has nobody ever kept the one of the first 1000 sold, in 197x as collectible? My gripe is the places that have all sorts of local regulations, that will never let you use a OLD EXPENSIVE COMPUTER for stupid things like the AC makes too much noise, or this Item was sold under a sealed bid this year, to Scrap-are-us and we could not bother telling you about it because you are not the Board, or the we got the money to upgrade Friday and you have to have all the items removed that room before Monday. --===============8284401158348712488==-- From teoz@neo.rr.com Fri Sep 23 04:57:10 2022 From: Teo Zenios To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 00:49:50 -0400 Message-ID: <4D285857E63E422C901E25E83D107AEE@i54570THINK> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4275103100661719724==" --===============4275103100661719724== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. Anyway you can't really complain unless you know the origins of those front panels. Some of that equipment was scrapped a long time ago and somebody found the front panel or other parts cool and kept them. You can't really expect people to keep everything from being made into razor blades 20+ years ago and kept in heated and cooled low humidity storage so somebody down the road could snag it for lunch money. If somebody pays a decent amount of cash to mount something on a wall it will sooner or later end up being resold to a collector so its not really lost in the long view of things. If there is enough demand or it is worth the economics to recreate somebody will 3D print parts and have boards made. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hunter via cctalk Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2022 10:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their man cave or living room wall. These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. For some time I have been looking for a PDP-8/e front panel PCB needed to make a machine complete. Until now I had no luck. No doubt there are dozens of these hanging off people's walls. Like Peter I don't care if the PCB is functional, but unlike Peter I can and will repair it. Peter please consider the negative impact of your hobby on historically valuable computer systems. Tom -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============4275103100661719724==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 05:30:17 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 22:30:01 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D285857E63E422C901E25E83D107AEE@i54570THINK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3885714607588270804==" --===============3885714607588270804== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/22/22 21:49, Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: > I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. I recall all of the IBM 1620 front panels in "The Forbin Project", along with CDC 3000 series (green glass) cabinets. In fact, I recently pointed out to James at starringthecomputer the inexplicable presence of three CDC 607 tape drives visible from the opeating room in the pilot of "Emergency". Only visible for a few seconds, but there they were. I suspect that the innards of those drives had been stripped out and simply made to spin the tapes. --Chuck --===============3885714607588270804==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 23 05:47:13 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 23:47:00 -0600 Message-ID: <581f8b86-3fdf-7540-0208-63c74f3c2d4b@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <4D285857E63E422C901E25E83D107AEE@i54570THINK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3220483599104559735==" --===============3220483599104559735== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-09-22 10:49 p.m., Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: > I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. > > Anyway you can't really complain unless you know the origins of those > front panels. Some of that equipment was scrapped a long time ago and > somebody found the front panel or other parts cool and kept them. You > can't really expect people to keep everything from being made into razor > blades 20+ years ago and kept in heated and cooled low humidity storage > so somebody down the road could snag it for lunch money. > > If somebody pays a decent amount of cash to mount something on a wall it > will sooner or later end up being resold to a collector so its not > really lost in the long view of things. > > If there is enough demand or it is worth the economics to recreate > somebody will 3D print parts and have boards made. > Well I could use a REAL front panel, and case, I don't have the skills to fiddle with the little details to have it look professional and play with pcb board design like ki-cad. What I do want as ASR-33 style keyboard but upper/lower case, round keys and PS/2 out and real bell for output sound. This is hobby, I can't spend 100's of dollars per hour for a project, or kick start money. Ben. --===============3220483599104559735==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 23 05:56:28 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 23:56:17 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1251774770026024189==" --===============1251774770026024189== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2022-09-22 11:30 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/22/22 21:49, Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: >> I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. > > I recall all of the IBM 1620 front panels in "The Forbin Project", along > with CDC 3000 series (green glass) cabinets. In fact, I recently > pointed out to James at starringthecomputer the inexplicable presence of > three CDC 607 tape drives visible from the opeating room in the pilot of > "Emergency". Only visible for a few seconds, but there they were. > > I suspect that the innards of those drives had been stripped out and > simply made to spin the tapes. > > --Chuck Tape drives tended to show powerful modern computers. Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike seem to be movie props only. Ben. --===============1251774770026024189==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri Sep 23 06:59:29 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 23:59:16 -0700 Message-ID: <0d58fdfb-33b4-ff21-8e80-1da0c4df4bc1@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8819769182459778805==" --===============8819769182459778805== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-09-22 11:30 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 9/22/22 21:49, Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: >>> I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. >> >> I recall all of the IBM 1620 front panels in "The Forbin Project", along >> with CDC 3000 series (green glass) cabinets.  In fact, I recently >> pointed out to James at starringthecomputer the inexplicable presence of >> three CDC 607 tape drives visible from the opeating room in the pilot of >> "Emergency".  Only visible for a few seconds, but there they were. >> >> I suspect that the innards of those drives had been stripped out and >> simply made to spin the tapes. >> >> --Chuck > Tape drives tended to show powerful modern computers. > Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. > World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike > seem to be movie props only. > Ben. > > > I implemented a system monitoring setup when I worked  at Microdata to count instructions executed.  We were able to log to a 1600 BPI 45 ips drive and keep up without much compression, just some tricky encoding, large record sizes to optimize the tape motion, and the fact the machines we shipped didn't really execute macro instructions at any high rate. Anyway when I first got it going, I was able to play for a while before signing off it was working.  The system being monitored had 32 terminal ports, and was an interactive Pick system (Reality was Microdata's version).  When I would do a command of some small length, the tape would spin then stop.  Quite satisfying to have it working that way, and the spinning movie and TV tape drives  were the first to come to mind. As to implementation, the target system had a modified firmware in it to send out information and a ready pulse to the recording system.  There was a program to monitor the parallel interface (64 bits wide) and dump the information into the tape buffer.  Some pretty simple code to keep track of the ping pong, and when a buffer swap took place, the trick was there was very little to initiating the I/O for the hardware. Both systems were pulled off of the production line so were twin new production systems. But watching it run various benchmarks later and see the drive spinning was really fun. Thanks Jim --===============8819769182459778805==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 09:20:47 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:20:24 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2893054844039463058==" --===============2893054844039463058== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 8:42 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Look for less well-known mini computers. No, please don't If the machine it less well known, it is very likely that many fewer have survived. As a result ruining one for its front panel is going to make said machine even harder to find. There are many more PDP8e machines around than , say, Philips P850's or P851's -tony --===============2893054844039463058==-- From guykd@optusnet.com.au Fri Sep 23 12:28:47 2022 From: guykd@optusnet.com.au To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 12:28:34 +0000 Message-ID: <166393611451.2127592.2409504898531417910@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4573770673467337734==" --===============4573770673467337734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of orphan front panels... Anyone have an unwanted PDP 8/s front lights PCB? I have a machine in my restoration queue, almost complete except for that PCB. Presumably someone once took the board out to replace some blown light bulbs, then gave up and never replaced it. Lazy bugger. At least I have another PDP 8/s _with_ that PCB, so if necessary I can replic= ate it. Preferably with LEDs, if I could think of a simple way to make them act as if they had the slow thermal inertia of a filament. Neither machine has the rack slide rails with tilt and lock pivots. :( Guy --===============4573770673467337734==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 13:09:24 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 09:09:08 -0400 Message-ID: <8C1F2104-9D81-44BF-86E8-438C79C82373@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2465225907333709991==" --===============2465225907333709991== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately > sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their > man cave or living room wall. > These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk > platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result > depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. Agreed for the most part, with the exception of disk platters. While it migh= t be theoretically possible to repair a disk pack, or disk drive, given a loo= se platter in good condition, I doubt this is practical. Partly because few = if any of us have the precision equipment needed to do this, and partly becau= se loose platters are typically loose because they were wrecked. There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely need= s to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal field repair= procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is unlikely ever to be a= ble to serve as anything more than a wall hanging or a prop. paul --===============2465225907333709991==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 14:23:16 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 09:22:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4c4a847d-e1a9-ae31-bcf2-10b5b493e6b9@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1197007273376260436==" --===============1197007273376260436== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When was that? On Thu., Sep. 22, 2022, 9:04 p.m. Chris Zach via cctalk, < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > True. I wound up giving away an HP1000 with front panel, because no one > wanted it. So they do exist out there... > > C > > > On 9/22/2022 3:42 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Look for less well-known mini computers. > > > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 1:47 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> It is sacrelege! > >> > >> In all honesty, real front panels are expensive. An 11/40 front panel > sold > >> recently on eBay for $2000! (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771 < > >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771>) > >> > >> They’re also hard to come by, and most that have them are going to be > very > >> reluctant to part with them. > >> > >> I suggest, if you want a display piece, the very good replicas done by > >> Oscar Vermeulen. He offers both a PDP-11 and PDP-8 replica kit, powered > by > >> a Rasberry Pi and the SimH emulator. He is also working on a PDP-10 > replica > >> as well. > >> > >> These are reasonably priced, and very good quality, working, scaled > >> replicas of their respective systems. ( > >> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 < > >> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11>) > >> > >> It’s worth noting that other replica front panel systems are available > as > >> well, including, but not limited to the Altairduino 8080 > >> > >>> On Sep 22, 2022, at 6:05 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a > *Data > >>> General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > >>> Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier > >> and > >>> I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged > and > >>> of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > >>> postage/freight. > >>> Any offers? Any offers? > >>> Peter > >>> > >>> PS Please don't shout at me! > >> > >> > --===============1197007273376260436==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Fri Sep 23 14:53:21 2022 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:30:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5030142973802997204==" --===============5030142973802997204== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain which supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days tools/OS's? Anything? Thanks in advance! --===============5030142973802997204==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 15:22:33 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 23:22:02 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8C1F2104-9D81-44BF-86E8-438C79C82373@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2952722531757793925==" --===============2952722531757793925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course I meant disk platters in working configuration as in disk packs or stacks of platters on a spindle, not loose platers extracted from packs or stacks and converted into coffee tables or wall ornaments. :-) Tom On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 9:09 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components > desperately > > sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their > > man cave or living room wall. > > These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk > > platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result > > depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. > > Agreed for the most part, with the exception of disk platters. While it > might be theoretically possible to repair a disk pack, or disk drive, given > a loose platter in good condition, I doubt this is practical. Partly > because few if any of us have the precision equipment needed to do this, > and partly because loose platters are typically loose because they were > wrecked. > > There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely > needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal field > repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is unlikely ever > to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging or a prop. > > paul > > --===============2952722531757793925==-- From cube1@charter.net Fri Sep 23 16:11:47 2022 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 11:04:27 -0500 Message-ID: <85b12212-de36-de04-96f2-c478d36aa823@charter.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5840786590176700468==" --===============5840786590176700468== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, as it turns out I have a full PDP-8/M front panel, including the board, which I *believe* is compatible with an 8/E, but has LED lights instead of incandescent ones (one might have to check to make sure that the pin with the lamp power isn't used on the baord.) [It is a FULL front panel, in spite of what one sees on Doug Jones website.] Looks like this one: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/dec/pdp8m.html It looks like this one - I didn't look closely to see if it had an OEM name at the top. The board is missing two of the paddles, and the knob for the rotary switch. Tom, if you are interested, contact me off list. JRJ On 9/22/2022 9:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately > sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their > man cave or living room wall. > These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk > platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result > depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. > For some time I have been looking for a PDP-8/e front panel PCB needed to > make a machine complete. Until now I had no luck. No doubt there are dozens > of these hanging off people's walls. > Like Peter I don't care if the PCB is functional, but unlike Peter I can > and will repair it. > Peter please consider the negative impact of your hobby on historically > valuable computer systems. > Tom > > > On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 1:33 AM Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data >> General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. >> Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier and >> I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and >> of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay >> postage/freight. >> Any offers? Any offers? >> Peter >> >> PS Please don't shout at me! >> --===============5840786590176700468==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 16:46:16 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 09:45:59 -0700 Message-ID: <54b92230-eb9f-0c18-1426-30c6e06ff9ee@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3519572698678855544==" --===============3519572698678855544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: > Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. > World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike > seem to be movie props only. I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front panels and blinking lights altogether. (e.g. Cray I, CDC Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without help from another system doing the I/O. --Chuck --===============3519572698678855544==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 17:01:51 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 12:53:32 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <54b92230-eb9f-0c18-1426-30c6e06ff9ee@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5165238438375516244==" --===============5165238438375516244== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. >> World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike >> seem to be movie props only. > I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front > panels and blinking lights altogether. (e.g. Cray I, CDC > Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without > help from another system doing the I/O. Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or = two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "lig= hts and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were the = other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. paul --===============5165238438375516244==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Fri Sep 23 17:10:00 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:09:47 +0100 Message-ID: <527E03F5-5CC8-412F-8B10-D318756DE023@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: <54b92230-eb9f-0c18-1426-30c6e06ff9ee@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5277963175518904404==" --===============5277963175518904404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 5:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front > panels and blinking lights altogether. (e.g. Cray I, CDC > Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without > help from another system doing the I/O. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 The Cray was often coupled witha DG nova for bootstrapping, which very much d= id have a front panel on it. Indeed, many models of PDP-10 were bootstrapped = by PDP-11=E2=80=99s with front panels, even if the PDP-10 lacked one. The CDC= Cyber however, had =E2=80=9Cdead start=E2=80=9D panels hidden behind shoudin= g, which could be used in a very similar way to a front panel. By the mid 70=E2=80=99s and early 80=E2=80=99s, ROM chips had largely replace= d front panels, initialising the system and performing boot routines that wer= e otherwise done by front panel. You can see this approach in later PDP-11/s = and even PDP-8=E2=80=99s Josh --===============5277963175518904404==-- From drb@msu.edu Fri Sep 23 17:11:01 2022 From: Dennis Boone To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:10:49 -0400 Message-ID: <20220923171049.DD72D3F0AF1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6524322312419004967==" --===============6524322312419004967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe > one or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both > very much "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For > that matter, so were the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a > bit of an outlier I think. CDC was just an early adopter of the idea that a front panel involving a keyboard and display are more user-friendly and more powerful than a vast number of lights and switches. De --===============6524322312419004967==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 17:22:44 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:22:30 -0400 Message-ID: <857B89E3-62F1-49F3-B01A-FEAA6DC6E644@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <527E03F5-5CC8-412F-8B10-D318756DE023@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2104506508271883364==" --===============2104506508271883364== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:09 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >=20 > ... > The Cray was often coupled witha DG nova for bootstrapping, which very much= did have a front panel on it. Indeed, many models of PDP-10 were bootstrappe= d by PDP-11=E2=80=99s with front panels, even if the PDP-10 lacked one. The C= DC Cyber however, had =E2=80=9Cdead start=E2=80=9D panels hidden behind shoud= ing, which could be used in a very similar way to a front panel. I view the deadstart panel as a type of boot ROM, different from other boot R= OMs only in that it's easy to change. It was tied to an I/O channel; the dea= dstart operation would run an I/O read operation on that channel to load the = initial bits of code. It's definitely not a front panel in the usual sense of a set of controls tha= t are used to interact with the machine while it is running. It only comes i= nto play when you hit the deadstart button to reset the whole machine back to= its initial state. paul --===============2104506508271883364==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 17:31:46 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:31:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D285857E63E422C901E25E83D107AEE@i54570THINK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1643687603573427405==" --===============1643687603573427405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/23/22 00:49, Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: > I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. > > Anyway you can't really complain unless you know the origins of those > front panels. Some of that equipment was scrapped a long time ago and > somebody found the front panel or other parts cool and kept them. You > can't really expect people to keep everything from being made into razor > blades 20+ years ago and kept in heated and cooled low humidity storage > so somebody down the road could snag it for lunch money. > > If somebody pays a decent amount of cash to mount something on a wall it > will sooner or later end up being resold to a collector so its not > really lost in the long view of things. > > If there is enough demand or it is worth the economics to recreate > somebody will 3D print parts and have boards made. > > -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hunter via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2022 10:44 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Tom Hunter > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. > > I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately > sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their > man cave or living room wall. > These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk > platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result > depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. > For some time I have been looking for a PDP-8/e front panel PCB needed to > make a machine complete. Until now I had no luck. No doubt there are dozens > of these hanging off people's walls. > Like Peter I don't care if the PCB is functional, but unlike Peter I can > and will repair it. > Peter please consider the negative impact of your hobby on historically > valuable computer systems. I still have the front panel from a PDP-11/24. It was the first PDP I had and I still miss it. I am sure the guts are still in use as I gave them to someone setting up one of the many private museums. At lest. I hope so. bill --===============1643687603573427405==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 17:36:12 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:35:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6161063475312261739==" --===============6161063475312261739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: > Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one o= r two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "l= ights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were th= e other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but eventually, even IBM saw the light. --Chuck --===============6161063475312261739==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 17:38:17 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:38:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8C1F2104-9D81-44BF-86E8-438C79C82373@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3526963842661946339==" --===============3526963842661946339== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 09:09, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> >> I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately >> sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their >> man cave or living room wall. >> These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk >> platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result >> depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. >=20 > Agreed for the most part, with the exception of disk platters. While it mi= ght be theoretically possible to repair a disk pack, or disk drive, given a l= oose platter in good condition, I doubt this is practical. Partly because fe= w if any of us have the precision equipment needed to do this, and partly bec= ause loose platters are typically loose because they were wrecked. >=20 > There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely ne= eds to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal field repa= ir procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is unlikely ever to be= able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging or a prop. >=20 I have a wall plaque given to me when I left DOIM at USMA. It is made out of a platter from a mainframe hard disk and and the emblem from a Cadet "Tar Bucket" helmet. It still hangs, proudly, on my wall. bill --===============3526963842661946339==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 17:38:50 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:38:36 -0400 Message-ID: <3E132E62-688E-4B88-8CFB-51BD07184737@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2561580646812542149==" --===============2561580646812542149== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >=20 > On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one = or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "= lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were t= he other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. >=20 > How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could > count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but > eventually, even IBM saw the light. >=20 > --Chuck Yes, I was thinking "mainframes" not limited to "supercomputers". Then again= , from what I remember of the one starring in "War Games", the Connection Mac= hine had oodles of lights. paul --===============2561580646812542149==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 17:42:00 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:41:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6938952952285133358==" --===============6938952952285133358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 12:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. >>> World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike >>> seem to be movie props only. >> I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front >> panels and blinking lights altogether. (e.g. Cray I, CDC >> Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without >> help from another system doing the I/O. >=20 > Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one o= r two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "l= ights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were th= e other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. >=20 Prime 850 had a 4 or 5 position switch and a push button. I think there may have been a power light but I don't remember for sure. bill --===============6938952952285133358==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 17:44:56 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:44:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E132E62-688E-4B88-8CFB-51BD07184737@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3445405299235638474==" --===============3445405299235638474== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 13:38, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one= or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much = "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were = the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. >> >> How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could >> count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but >> eventually, even IBM saw the light. >> >> --Chuck >=20 > Yes, I was thinking "mainframes" not limited to "supercomputers". Then aga= in, from what I remember of the one starring in "War Games", the Connection M= achine had oodles of lights. >=20 It's been a long time but I seem to remember that the 1401 had about the same number of lights and switches as an IMSAI. :-) I think the IMSAI was more powerful. bill --===============3445405299235638474==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Fri Sep 23 17:46:33 2022 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 10:38:33 -0700 Message-ID: <5d4b534b-1228-a61a-4ea8-336ad973a98c@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: <857B89E3-62F1-49F3-B01A-FEAA6DC6E644@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3291775126034624907==" --===============3291775126034624907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23/09/22 10:22, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I view the deadstart panel as a type of boot ROM, different from other boot= ROMs only in that it's easy to change. It was tied to an I/O channel; the d= eadstart operation would run an I/O read operation on that channel to load th= e initial bits of code. It wasn't tied to a channel, it forced the instructions into=20 PP zero, which in turn interacted with the channel. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with your original assertion; the 6000=20 and 7000 series had enough intelligence in the console to not need a=20 traditional front panel; I'm also not sure given the architecture of=20 those machines that things like single step or=20 halt-and-inspect-or-deposit would make a lot of sense -- most of the=20 heavy lifting is done by the virtual PPs with the CPU basically just=20 doing math. The 6000 and 7000 series had a crap-ton of lights, but they show up on=20 the channel controllers.=C2=A0 Hardware diagnostics weren't through the=20 lights, but rather through the nine-zillion test points I recall one FE unwedging a channel by applying a shorting plug to a=20 TP.=C2=A0 Fun times, fun times. --=20 Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration=E2=80=A6" --===============3291775126034624907==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 23 17:52:15 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 11:52:04 -0600 Message-ID: <78500371-c489-de73-ac50-e956b7ab553e@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1381603059389888465==" --===============1381603059389888465== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-09-23 11:35 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 >> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one = or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "= lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were t= he other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. >=20 > How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could > count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but > eventually, even IBM saw the light. >=20 > --Chuck >=20 > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret number crunching. Ben. --===============1381603059389888465==-- From rdawson16@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 18:14:52 2022 From: Randy Dawson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:14:40 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <78500371-c489-de73-ac50-e956b7ab553e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2967931288291660709==" --===============2967931288291660709== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the top secret number cruching.... The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' asked for by the NSA. The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. ________________________________ From: ben via cctalk Sent: Friday, September 23, 2022 10:52 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: ben Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. On 2022-09-23 11:35 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one = or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "= lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were t= he other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. > > How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could > count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but > eventually, even IBM saw the light. > > --Chuck > > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret number crunching. Ben. --===============2967931288291660709==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 18:16:20 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:16:05 -0400 Message-ID: <419EEF74-FC9F-430E-96E8-978634BBFFFB@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <5d4b534b-1228-a61a-4ea8-336ad973a98c@mainecoon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7502909598090981413==" --===============7502909598090981413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:38 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 23/09/22 10:22, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I view the deadstart panel as a type of boot ROM, different from other boo= t ROMs only in that it's easy to change. It was tied to an I/O channel; the = deadstart operation would run an I/O read operation on that channel to load t= he initial bits of code. >=20 > It wasn't tied to a channel, it forced the instructions into PP z= ero, which in turn interacted with the channel. Yes. I meant the panel is tied to channel 0, and deadstart runs an input fro= m that channel. To be fully precise: The deadstart (master clear) signal forces a particular instruction state int= o each PP, and it also sets the "deadstart synchronizer" -- the device that c= onnects the deadstart panel to channel zero -- into active state. The PPs th= en execute the newly set instruction state. Since all other channels are ina= ctive after master clear, PPn for n !=3D 0 would sit there waiting for channe= l active. PP 0 reads words from the deadstart synchronizer: a zero word foll= owed by the 12 words on the panel, and then the synchronizer disconnects. Th= at ends the IAM instruction and PP 0 resumes at the address pointed to by loc= ation 0, which is 0, so the panel contents is executed (preceded by a 0 opcod= e which is a NOP). paul --===============7502909598090981413==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 18:19:07 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:18:52 -0400 Message-ID: <5C7B99E0-0284-4715-8E95-FDFC57D3E375@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <78500371-c489-de73-ac50-e956b7ab553e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1485212902888884814==" --===============1485212902888884814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:52 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. > Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret > number crunching. > Ben. I'm not sure I understand the question. Floating point numbers are bits in m= emory, just like any other data. Disk and tape and similar data storage devi= ce I/O just moves memory words to/from the device; it doesn't matter what the= bit patterns mean. Data interpretation does matter for output to devices like line printers, of = course; printing a decimal nummber is different for float vs. integer. paul --===============1485212902888884814==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 18:20:17 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 11:12:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E132E62-688E-4B88-8CFB-51BD07184737@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3757810507820720365==" --===============3757810507820720365== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 10:38, Paul Koning wrote: > Yes, I was thinking "mainframes" not limited to "supercomputers". Then aga= in, from what I remember of the one starring in "War Games", the Connection M= achine had oodles of lights. When I first encountered the 7600 MCU, I thought it was a stroke of genius. Other than guessing or probing with a 'scope, one could see what everything was doing--and control much of it. The STAR took this one step further--the MCU there had its own drum (loaded by paper tape) for storage and a display not connected to the operating system. Lots and lots of monitoring and control The I/O station buffer units also had their own drums and CRT displays/keyboards. --Chuck --===============3757810507820720365==-- From gordon+cctalk@drogon.net Fri Sep 23 18:21:27 2022 From: Gordon Henderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 19:12:28 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3604090039917372314==" --===============3604090039917372314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? > Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain which > supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days tools/OS's? > > Anything? I can't help with your quest, however I wish you both luck and the energy to preserve your old grey cells when dealing with these beasts. Back in the day I did some work on the i860. Fascinating chip. Very capable of doing high speed vector math and multiply + add in a single cycle. As long as you were prepared to sacrifice the old grey cells to it's dual-instruction mode programming. I didn't do anything in C that I recall, all assembler (I was involved mostly in test/diagnostics and low-level accesses - we had them on a shared memory system with Transputers being relegated (by then) to nothing more than "smart" comms chips... (Late 80s) I think we used the Portland Group C and FORTRAN compilers, but even then we had large librarys hand-coded in assembler to achieve that fabled 3 instructions per cycle quote - you have to effectively pump the floating point pipeline by hand so you ran operations that assembled to a 64-bit word which was one 32-bit instructions for the integer unit (say a load from RAM into FPU pipeline) and one for the FPU (say, a multiply and add instruction). So some 8 cycles later you'd actually start to get results out as it took 8 cycles to actually do the multiply and add - however it was one cycle after that - good for vector work, but sub-optimal for a single number multiply. And lets hope you never, ever, have to take an interrupt during an FP operation. It's 100's of cycles to save/restore the pipeline. I think there was a unix/unix-like OS for them, but I imagine context switching was slow... Cheers, Gordon --===============3604090039917372314==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 18:21:37 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:21:23 -0400 Message-ID: <272DD09F-123E-4C92-9DCA-4DED9EA3A6A2@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBYAPR06MB43596AEA0735916ADB7A0137BA519=40BYAPR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?4359=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5251937414462351391==" --===============5251937414462351391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 2:14 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On the top secret number cruching.... >=20 > The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' >=20 > asked for by the NSA. >=20 > The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. Cray did? I didn't know that. It first appeared in the CDC 6600, and yes, a= ccording to rumor at the request of NSA. I can imagine it being used for sta= tistical analysis of character patterns. A non-classified example of its use is in the PLATO system for "fuzzy string = matching". PLATO needed to be able to recognize student answers that were co= rrect but misspelled; it would do that, roughly speaking, by taking the diffe= rence of the expected string and the actual input and running population coun= t on that. A difference of less than n bits would be defined as a misspelled= match. paul --===============5251937414462351391==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 18:28:29 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 11:28:16 -0700 Message-ID: <68e71160-f0ab-eb34-a39d-40a8b5033215@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBYAPR06MB43596AEA0735916ADB7A0137BA519=40BYAPR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?4359=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7759729399987091477==" --===============7759729399987091477== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/23/22 11:14, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > On the top secret number cruching.... > > The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' > > asked for by the NSA. > > The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. The CDC 6600 had a dedicated functional unit for this instruction. Wasted a lot of time trying to think up practical uses for it--totting up disk block allocation bitmaps was perhaps the most useful. --Chuck --===============7759729399987091477==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 18:31:24 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 11:25:45 -0700 Message-ID: <40439aca-0e41-b796-843e-0f830ce21b09@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <78500371-c489-de73-ac50-e956b7ab553e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0376570272646408099==" --===============0376570272646408099== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/23/22 10:52, ben via cctalk wrote: > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. > Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret > number crunching. Well, consider the 1969 STAR-100; although not well documented, had a 512-bit wide, error-checked I/O channel that ran at memory speed. Neil had various schemes for it, including a 100K RPM head-per-track drum that ran in vacuo. I recall him mentioning that the prototype lasted around a minute before the observation window was covered with the remnants of the drum surface. Or consider the STAR SCROLL--a very wide tape that ran over a head-per-track drum. I don't recall seeing that prototype; maybe it existed only in the mind. But we had to mention both in our responses to RFQs. This may be before Chris Elmquist's time, but he might also remember. Too bad that Neil's no longer with us; I suspect that he had lots of amazing stories. --Chuck --===============0376570272646408099==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 18:42:07 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:41:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40439aca-0e41-b796-843e-0f830ce21b09@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5894822508996472463==" --===============5894822508996472463== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 2:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 9/23/22 10:52, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. >> Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret >> number crunching. >=20 > Well, consider the 1969 STAR-100; although not well documented, had a > 512-bit wide, error-checked I/O channel that ran at memory speed. Neil > had various schemes for it, including a 100K RPM head-per-track drum > that ran in vacuo. I recall him mentioning that the prototype lasted > around a minute before the observation window was covered with the > remnants of the drum surface. There is of course the CDC 6000 series ECS and its successors, a bulk memory = that does block transfers to/from main memory at full memory speed. Re 100k drum, interesting that someone tried to build that. It might actuall= y work as a disk, with floating heads in low pressure air rather than vacuum.= But it reminds me of a computer design course from 1948, where a discussion= of memory technologies postulates a drum memory (main memory in that era) de= scribed as "8 cm diameter and a few decimeters long" spinning at 60k RPM to d= eliver an average latency of 50 microseconds. It is perhaps significant Adri= aan van Wijngaarden, the author of that document, was a mathematician rather = than a mechanical engineer. :-) > Or consider the STAR SCROLL--a very wide tape that ran over a > head-per-track drum. I don't recall seeing that prototype; maybe it > existed only in the mind. But we had to mention both in our responses > to RFQs. Shades of the CDC 626, a one inch wide 14 track tape drive. That was a real = product, I think, though I never ran into one. Another way to get high speed: one of CDC's first disk drives, the 6603, wrot= e several bits in parallel. 4 bits? 12? I don't remember, but it made for = a throughput spec that was unbeaten for nearly a decade. paul --===============5894822508996472463==-- From rdawson16@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 18:46:40 2022 From: Randy Dawson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:46:23 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <68e71160-f0ab-eb34-a39d-40a8b5033215@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7539963906867989385==" --===============7539963906867989385== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, the web is your friend. Looks like it has applications in cryptography, or searching thru text: https://cryptome.org/jya/sadd.htm ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Friday, September 23, 2022 11:28 AM To: Randy Dawson via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. On 9/23/22 11:14, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > On the top secret number cruching.... > > The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' > > asked for by the NSA. > > The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. The CDC 6600 had a dedicated functional unit for this instruction. Wasted a lot of time trying to think up practical uses for it--totting up disk block allocation bitmaps was perhaps the most useful. --Chuck --===============7539963906867989385==-- From chris@mainecoon.com Fri Sep 23 18:50:12 2022 From: Christian Kennedy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 11:49:57 -0700 Message-ID: <645a351a-ad61-fe7c-bb08-a66992bd5633@mainecoon.com> In-Reply-To: <272DD09F-123E-4C92-9DCA-4DED9EA3A6A2@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7240200116498064848==" --===============7240200116498064848== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23/09/22 11:21, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Cray did? I didn't know that. It first appeared in the CDC 6600, and yes,= according to rumor at the request of NSA. I can imagine it being used for s= tatistical analysis of character patterns Yep.=C2=A0 Pop count is essentially the Hamming Weight, which is a measure of= =20 information content and for a hunk of text can serve as a hash to drive=20 further analysis. > A non-classified example of its use is in the PLATO system for "fuzzy strin= g matching". PLATO needed to be able to recognize student answers that were = correct but misspelled; it would do that, roughly speaking, by taking the dif= ference of the expected string and the actual input and running population co= unt on that. A difference of less than n bits would be defined as a misspell= ed match. This is a use of Hamming Distance (or a riff on it).=C2=A0 XOR two identical = length binary strings, a pop count on the result tells you how "far=20 apart" they are. --=20 Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration=E2=80=A6" --===============7240200116498064848==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Sep 23 19:19:58 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 15:19:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0706791216563913835==" --===============0706791216563913835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. If things aren't worth anything I will chuck them. No point in keeping junk around. C On 9/23/2022 10:22 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > When was that? --===============0706791216563913835==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 19:43:04 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:42:40 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1996549861238526459==" --===============1996549861238526459== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wish I had seen I would given à home On Fri., Sep. 23, 2022, 2:19 p.m. Chris Zach via cctalk, < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that > a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. > > If things aren't worth anything I will chuck them. No point in keeping > junk around. > > C > > On 9/23/2022 10:22 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > When was that? > --===============1996549861238526459==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 23 20:22:46 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:22:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8C1F2104-9D81-44BF-86E8-438C79C82373@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1922014997432228170==" --===============1922014997432228170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely > needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal > field repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is > unlikely ever to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging > or a prop. I made a patio table out of a damaged 24" diameter RAMAC platter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1922014997432228170==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Fri Sep 23 20:36:11 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 20:35:51 +0000 Message-ID: <1339397598.1164991.1663965351180@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2550736014916407433==" --===============2550736014916407433== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am quite sure the recipient was very happy to get it. Especially with i/o c= ards etc.........Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinio= n was that=20 a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. If things aren't worth anything I will chuck them. No point in keeping=20 junk around. C On 9/23/2022 10:22 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > When was that? =20 --===============2550736014916407433==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 23 20:47:54 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:47:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CBYAPR06MB43596AEA0735916ADB7A0137BA519=40BYAPR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?4359=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4571206390510757629==" --===============4571206390510757629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > On the top secret number cruching.... > The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' > asked for by the NSA. > The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. Interesting. A friend of my ex was asked to code that (in C) as a test in a job interview. It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any bit-twiddling experience. But, I couldn't think of practical application. Perhaps, some measures of central tendency of values of that in a large body of data could be useful for testing randomness in cryptography, such as checking for steganography? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============4571206390510757629==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Sep 23 20:53:09 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:52:43 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3030467265991138954==" --===============3030467265991138954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 2:22 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely > > needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal > > field repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is > > unlikely ever to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging > > or a prop. > > I made a patio table out of a damaged 24" diameter RAMAC platter. > Nice... My old boss made the platter from the crashed RP-03 that we had at work into a clock... Mine is still hanging up in my computer room as a memento from the past... Warner --===============3030467265991138954==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Sep 23 20:54:46 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:54:34 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <78500371-c489-de73-ac50-e956b7ab553e@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5532291860209943727==" --===============5532291860209943727== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, ben via cctalk wrote: > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. > Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret > number crunching. > Ben. In one of my first jobs (a gopher for a british physicist, studying Van Allen belts, in National Space Science Data Center (Bldg 26, GSFC)), we used a 7094, with a 360/30 doing its I/O. --===============5532291860209943727==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 23 20:55:20 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 16:55:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3373712618854078905==" --===============3373712618854078905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >> On the top secret number cruching.... >> The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' >> asked for by the NSA. >> The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. >=20 > Interesting. >=20 > A friend of my ex was asked to code that (in C) as a test in a job intervie= w. >=20 > It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any bit-twiddlin= g experience. But, I couldn't think of practical application. As was mentioned, it gives you the Hamming distance between two 60-bit values: BX1 X2-X3 CX1 X1 > Perhaps, some measures of central tendency of values of that in a large bod= y of data could be useful for testing randomness in cryptography, such as che= cking for steganography? A typical test in cryptography would be entropy; another would be Friedman's = "Index of coincidence". Both use histograms, so there a population count wou= ld not come into play. paul --===============3373712618854078905==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 23 21:27:07 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 17:26:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7976150728220719846==" --===============7976150728220719846== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a = > HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several HP mini fans = on=20 this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this was the=20 Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power supply didn't=20 work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three times the amount. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============7976150728220719846==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 21:34:07 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:33:48 -0700 Message-ID: <1a1a68fb-172f-09ee-ebb6-50addc8b5550@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4954174364311853228==" --===============4954174364311853228== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 11:41, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 > Another way to get high speed: one of CDC's first disk drives, the 6603, wr= ote several bits in parallel. 4 bits? 12? I don't remember, but it made fo= r a throughput spec that was unbeaten for nearly a decade. I think the 6638 was the controller you may be thinking of; the drive was the 808 (and 821 if you're after arcana). The 6603 was the old Bryant 4000 disk. I've got a head from one (808)--6 channels quite visible. Each head assembly had several heads. 4 spindles with 2 actuators (hydraulic), one on top and the other on the bottom, with the actuator sitting between the spindles, so accessed in a sort of pushme-pullyu arrangemt. Transfers, of course, were 12 bits wide. The 821, which I never saw outside of Special Systems Divison, increased the capacity. It was notoriously unreliable with a tendency to go "not ready" without notice. Otherwise, it was the tall gray cabinet that looked exactly like an 808. --Chuck --===============4954174364311853228==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 21:49:21 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:49:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2787572157944331868==" --===============2787572157944331868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 13:47, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any > bit-twiddling experience.=C2=A0 But, I couldn't think of practical applicat= ion. >=20 The 6600 implemented it (IIRC) as a tree of 8 bit adders. If you haven't read Jim Thornton's "Design of a Computer--The CDC 6600", you owe it to yourself to look it up: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/CDC/cdc.6600.thornton.desig= n_of_a_computer_the_control_data_6600.1970.102630394.pdf --Chuck --===============2787572157944331868==-- From cclist@sydex.com Fri Sep 23 21:57:31 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 14:57:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0013887886622790939==" --===============0013887886622790939== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/23/22 11:12, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi all, >> anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? >> Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain >> which supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days >> tools/OS's? >> >> Anything? > > I can't help with your quest, however I wish you both luck and the > energy to preserve your old grey cells when dealing with these beasts. > > Back in the day I did some work on the i860. Fascinating chip. Very > capable of doing high speed vector math and multiply + add in a single > cycle. I believe (I'll have to check) that in the Osborne-McGraw-Hill/Intel i860 book there's a quote from BillG saying that Microsoft was committed to developing for the 860 as a personal computer CPU. I think that never happened...it would have been interesting, however. --Chuck --===============0013887886622790939==-- From jon@jonworld.com Fri Sep 23 22:08:51 2022 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 23:08:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1034880414341578102==" --===============1034880414341578102== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > IIRC the Intel IPSC (Inter Personal Super Computer) put a ton of these in parallel. It ran some kind of Unix and there has to have been a gcc port. https://www.vaxbarn.com/42-repair/756-ipsc-860-repair > > I believe (I'll have to check) that in the Osborne-McGraw-Hill/Intel > i860 book there's a quote from BillG saying that Microsoft was committed > to developing for the 860 as a personal computer CPU. > > I think that never happened...it would have been interesting, however. > > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============1034880414341578102==-- From cc@alderson.users.panix.com Fri Sep 23 22:14:41 2022 From: Rich Alderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 17:55:30 -0400 Message-ID: <4MZ5YZ3KK5zfYm@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <527E03F5-5CC8-412F-8B10-D318756DE023@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4653046728086624864==" --===============4653046728086624864== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:09:47 +0100 > From: Joshua Rice via cctalk > The Cray was often coupled witha DG nova for bootstrapping, which very much > did have a front panel on it. Indeed, many models of PDP-10 were bootstrapp= ed > by PDP-11's with front panels, even if the PDP-10 lacked one. The CDC Cyber > however, had "dead start" panels hidden behind shouding, which could be used > in a very similar way to a front panel. Sorry, only 1 model of PDP-10 was bootstrapped by a PDP-11 (specifically an 11/40 running either KLDCP or RSX-20F). That was the KL-10, featured in the DECsystem-1080, DECsystem-1088, DECsystem-1090, DECsystem-1099, DECsystem-109= 5, DECSYSTEM-2040, DECSYSTEM-2050, DECSYSTEM-2060, and DECSYSTEM-2065. The 1088 and 1099 were multiple-processor configurations of the 1080 and 1090 or 1095, respectively. The 1095/2065 was the same hardware, with the expanded cache and MG-20 memory, with paint color depending on the OS. The KS-10 processor in the DECSYSTEM-2020 (which never had a Dec-10 designati= on) had an 8080 as the front end processor. The earlier models[1], using the KA-10 or KI-10 processors, had the equivalent of the CDC deadstart switch or IBM IPL button, and a way to enter the address of the I/O device from which to boot on the control panel beneath the large array of blinking lights. Rich [1] For completeness: the KA-10 is used in the PDP-10/30, PDP-10/40, and PDP-10/50 (which oculd be doubled in the PDP-10/55), while the KI-10 is used in the DECsystem-1070 and -1077. --===============4653046728086624864==-- From lproven@gmail.com Fri Sep 23 22:23:59 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 00:23:37 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0513908408355550883==" --===============0513908408355550883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 23:57, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I believe (I'll have to check) that in the Osborne-McGraw-Hill/Intel > i860 book there's a quote from BillG saying that Microsoft was committed > to developing for the 860 as a personal computer CPU. > > I think that never happened...it would have been interesting, however. The closest I know of is that the early (late-1980s) versions of what was then OS/2 NT were built on i860 boards, codenamed "Razzle". The Smithsonian has one: https://www.si.edu/object/microsoft-windows-nt-development-board-pcr1-rev1-in= tel-i860-processor%3Anmah_742558 There are a handful of mentions of them here and there: https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3D32510 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20181224-00/?p=3D100545 The codename of the first version of the i860 was "N-Ten" which is where the "NT" product name originated: https://web.archive.org/web/20110720042038/http://www.winsupersite.com/articl= e/windows-server/windows-server-2003-the-road-to-gold-part-one-the-early-year= s-127432 --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0513908408355550883==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 22:30:10 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:29:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3168570516813682451==" --===============3168570516813682451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/23/22 17:26, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was >> that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. > >    That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several HP mini > fans on this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this was the > Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power supply > didn't work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three times the > amount. That's how this hobby works. Mr. A has WhizBang500. It's old and a little dirty but it works. He thinks it's worth $10,000. Mr. B wants one. But he only thinks it's worth $50. Time passes and eventually Mr. B gets the WhizBan500. He now thinks it's worth $10,000. :-) The only thing worse are the resellers who will pay you $10 bucks for your whole collection and then sell each module for $2000. (yes, I know this from personal experience. it's why I would throw all my stuff in a dumpster before letting a reseller have any of it!!) bill --===============3168570516813682451==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Sep 23 23:27:11 2022 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:26:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2614115440689901091==" --===============2614115440689901091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/23/22 11:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. >>> World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike >>> seem to be movie props only. >> I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front >> panels and blinking lights altogether. (e.g. Cray I, CDC >> Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without >> help from another system doing the I/O. > Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one o= r two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "l= ights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were th= e other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. Blinky light front panels went mostly out of style on later=20 machines.=C2=A0 The 360/85 (prototype of the 370/165) went to a=20 scheme with a lamp panel projected onto a microfiche viewer=20 that combined legends from the fiche with the lamp image.=C2=A0=20 Turning knobs to select a different fiche page brought up=20 different signals to the lamps.=C2=A0 This was a stark departure=20 from the IBM Model 195 panel, which was seriously over the=20 top!=C2=A0 You needed a road atlas to even FIND the indicator you=20 wanted to look at! The VAX 11/780 had no panel, just four indicators and a key=20 switch.=C2=A0 The console driven by an LSI-11 was pretty=20 powerful, though.=C2=A0 The KL10B used a PDP-11 as the console=20 and to interface non-MassBus peripherals. As for the defense maps, they really DID exist.=C2=A0 Our=20 university had some bits of SAGE, and one of the things was=20 the big map projector.=C2=A0 The way the thing worked was a small=20 CRT was projected onto movie film, the film ran through a=20 developer, and then was projected onto a large screen.=C2=A0 I=20 don't know what the delay for film processing was, but it=20 must have been 30 seconds or so. Jon --===============2614115440689901091==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 23:39:04 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 23:38:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4688073897945839910==" --===============4688073897945839910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the computers got so fast so that having blinking light wasn=E2=80=99= t feasible. They would be on all the time.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 23, 2022, at 16:27, Jon Elson via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/23/22 11:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>>> On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>> On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. >>>> World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike >>>> seem to be movie props only. >>> I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front >>> panels and blinking lights altogether. (e.g. Cray I, CDC >>> Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without >>> help from another system doing the I/O. >> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one = or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "= lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were t= he other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. >=20 > Blinky light front panels went mostly out of style on later machines. The = 360/85 (prototype of the 370/165) went to a scheme with a lamp panel projecte= d onto a microfiche viewer that combined legends from the fiche with the lamp= image. Turning knobs to select a different fiche page brought up different = signals to the lamps. This was a stark departure from the IBM Model 195 pane= l, which was seriously over the top! You needed a road atlas to even FIND th= e indicator you wanted to look at! >=20 > The VAX 11/780 had no panel, just four indicators and a key switch. The co= nsole driven by an LSI-11 was pretty powerful, though. The KL10B used a PDP-= 11 as the console and to interface non-MassBus peripherals. >=20 > As for the defense maps, they really DID exist. Our university had some bi= ts of SAGE, and one of the things was the big map projector. The way the thi= ng worked was a small CRT was projected onto movie film, the film ran through= a developer, and then was projected onto a large screen. I don't know what = the delay for film processing was, but it must have been 30 seconds or so. >=20 > Jon >=20 --===============4688073897945839910==-- From chris@groessler.org Fri Sep 23 23:39:17 2022 From: Christian Groessler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 01:14:00 +0200 Message-ID: <85762007-28c7-44d7-70d7-a5b14c7cf3a1@groessler.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7524096085275353486==" --===============7524096085275353486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Emanuel, On 9/23/22 16:30, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? > Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain > which supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days > tools/OS's? I've got a PC with an Hauppauge 4860 motherboard. There's a 80486 and a 80860 CPU on the board. I have some things online for this machine on ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/i860. I've put it online there long ago. I think the "i860tools-linux.tar.bz2" file could contain a gcc version for i860. But I found no source code for the compiler/toolchain when looking at the contents of this file. I had a gcc version in source code (work-in-progress), created by Jason Eckhardt, at some point in time (in the later 200X time frame). I could try to dig it out. I've also got a DOS version of (I think) the Portland Group C compiler for the i860. regards, chris --===============7524096085275353486==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Fri Sep 23 23:41:25 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 16:41:11 -0700 Message-ID: <60817e71-c4c3-2cc8-3397-5eed2d8d77a8@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6219840594159445519==" --===============6219840594159445519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I think there was a unix/unix-like OS for them, but I imagine context switc= hing > was slow... There were a couple *nix workstations based on it. The Oki 7300 series comes = to mind. I think someone exhibited at that VCF pre-COVID. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- Everything is permissible, but not everything is expedient. -- 1 Cor 6:12 = -- --===============6219840594159445519==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 24 00:39:23 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 20:38:44 -0400 Message-ID: <227C6422-8815-4F8B-84D2-B8430B64351E@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8493499228150443542==" --===============8493499228150443542== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 5:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 9/23/22 13:47, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any >> bit-twiddling experience. But, I couldn't think of practical application. >>=20 >=20 > The 6600 implemented it (IIRC) as a tree of 8 bit adders. If you > haven't read Jim Thornton's "Design of a Computer--The CDC 6600", you > owe it to yourself to look it up: >=20 > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/CDC/cdc.6600.thornton.des= ign_of_a_computer_the_control_data_6600.1970.102630394.pdf Roughly that, though it's more refined than that. It starts with 15 4-bit po= pulation count circuits. Then those counts are summed in a tree consisting o= f 8 3-bit adders feeding 4 4-bit adders feeding 2 5-bit adders and finally a= single 6-bit adder. There are latches at each stage, clocked 75 ns apart to= deliver the result in 400 ns (including overhead into and out of the functio= nal unit). Thornton is nice for a superficial view of the machine, enough for a first im= pression that's largely accurate. To see the full details, the "Block Diagra= m" manuals, which can be found on Bitsavers, are amazing resources. For exam= ple, while Thornton's famous "barrel" picture is a good conceptual model of t= he PPU design, the actual details of how the barrel operates are a whole lot = more complex than that simple picture suggests. The block diagram spells it = all out in full. paul --===============8493499228150443542==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Sat Sep 24 00:46:10 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:29:52 -0500 Message-ID: <39913137-cb81-bbfb-8d28-9245b13a66d8@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580C6B8E885E22D43A8D7F8ED519=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7987951069730197152==" --===============7987951069730197152== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Unfortunately there are some collectors who are also resellers so they buy entire lots, keep what they want and sell the rest on eBay at high prices. On 9/23/2022 5:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 9/23/22 17:26, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was >>> that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to >>> someone. >> >>     That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several HP >> mini fans on this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this >> was the Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power >> supply didn't work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three >> times the amount. > > That's how this hobby works.  Mr. A has WhizBang500.  It's old and a > little dirty but it works.  He thinks it's worth $10,000.  Mr. B wants > one.  But he only thinks it's worth $50.  Time passes and eventually > Mr. B gets the WhizBan500.  He now thinks it's worth $10,000.  :-) > > The only thing worse are the resellers who will pay you $10 bucks for > your whole collection and then sell each module for $2000. (yes, I > know this from personal experience.  it's why I would throw all my > stuff in a dumpster before letting a reseller have any of it!!) > > bill > --===============7987951069730197152==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Sep 24 01:27:00 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:26:45 -0700 Message-ID: <46bd3d99-fba6-d2df-2c9f-a5525f731b62@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CDM6PR06MB5580C6B8E885E22D43A8D7F8ED519=40DM6PR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5580=2Enamprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9128398397432295284==" --===============9128398397432295284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From an over-the-top perspective as the 360/91 and 360/195 panels were, would it be fair to say that SAGE held first place in this category? --Chuck --===============9128398397432295284==-- From mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 24 01:51:10 2022 From: Mike Loewen To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 21:50:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46bd3d99-fba6-d2df-2c9f-a5525f731b62@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7782513707587044518==" --===============7782513707587044518== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> From an over-the-top perspective as the 360/91 and 360/195 panels were, > would it be fair to say that SAGE held first place in this category? Yep! We could even single-step. :-) http://q7.neurotica.com/Q7/ Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============7782513707587044518==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Sat Sep 24 02:57:44 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 21:57:22 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1783428595245540684==" --===============1783428595245540684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wow someone mentioning à phillips p series Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and à spare core memory pack in safe keeping On Fri., Sep. 23, 2022, 4:20 a.m. Tony Duell via cctalk, < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 8:42 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Look for less well-known mini computers. > > No, please don't > > If the machine it less well known, it is very likely that many fewer > have survived. As a result ruining one for its front panel is going to > make said machine even harder to find. > > There are many more PDP8e machines around than , say, Philips P850's or > P851's > > > -tony > --===============1783428595245540684==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sat Sep 24 03:21:12 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 04:20:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0128662099174760314==" --===============0128662099174760314== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 3:57 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > Wow someone mentioning à phillips p series > Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and à > spare core memory pack in safe keeping You don't have the 'production' version of the CPU service manual with the microcode source do you? I only have the pre-release one which says that's to come later :-( Actually, do you mean P854 here? The P854 panel is a keypad with a pair of vacuum fluorescent displays (address and data) controlled by a 8048. The CPU was built from AMD 2900 series chips and included a memory management unit. I've never heard of one with core either. -tony (Who has a P850, P851 and P854 along with manuals and some spare boards) --===============0128662099174760314==-- From chrise@pobox.com Sat Sep 24 03:36:24 2022 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 22:28:52 -0500 Message-ID: <2E078CCD-FADE-4013-83C0-C5BDDA17446F@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <40439aca-0e41-b796-843e-0f830ce21b09@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0394683886807154567==" --===============0394683886807154567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ya. Thanks for the mention but it was before my time. I was in 8th grade wh= en I first met Lincoln. That was 1976. We did tune clocks on a CY203 a few t= imes but it wasn=E2=80=99t until ETA that I started doing real work ;-) All cool stuff though and the stories were endless and awesome. cje -- Chris Elmquist > On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/23/22 10:52, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. >> Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret >> number crunching. >=20 > Well, consider the 1969 STAR-100; although not well documented, had a > 512-bit wide, error-checked I/O channel that ran at memory speed. Neil > had various schemes for it, including a 100K RPM head-per-track drum > that ran in vacuo. I recall him mentioning that the prototype lasted > around a minute before the observation window was covered with the > remnants of the drum surface. >=20 > Or consider the STAR SCROLL--a very wide tape that ran over a > head-per-track drum. I don't recall seeing that prototype; maybe it > existed only in the mind. But we had to mention both in our responses > to RFQs. >=20 > This may be before Chris Elmquist's time, but he might also remember. > Too bad that Neil's no longer with us; I suspect that he had lots of > amazing stories. >=20 > --Chuck --===============0394683886807154567==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sat Sep 24 03:50:43 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 20:50:49 -0700 Message-ID: <002201d8cfc8$d69fdf00$83df9d00$@net> In-Reply-To: <60817e71-c4c3-2cc8-3397-5eed2d8d77a8@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7632755415447983532==" --===============7632755415447983532== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like i386 to i4= 86 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems as if the i960 actua= lly came first and although a RISC chip it was in no way in the same league a= s the i860. Anyone can clarify or verify this? -Ali --===============7632755415447983532==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Sep 24 04:04:33 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 00:04:20 -0400 Message-ID: <4764486b-2198-d51c-8728-f416aa2f067c@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3626413088117206728==" --===============3626413088117206728== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep, that was it. I don't remember your offer, but yes the power supply=20 was shot and needed repairs. Regardless, it's gone so I have more space=20 in my life. The Perqs went for free as well, but those went to people who know what=20 they are and can take care of them. There's still one in my shed though,=20 along with a Perq Canon laser printer and I need to think about that... CZ On 9/23/2022 5:26 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was=20 >> that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several H= P mini=20 > fans on this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this was the=20 > Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power supply=20 > didn't work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three times the=20 > amount. >=20 >=20 > Mike Loewen=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ --===============3626413088117206728==-- From spectre@floodgap.com Sat Sep 24 05:28:12 2022 From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 22:27:59 -0700 Message-ID: <687e6622-cc51-bc12-dc1c-478657c8ef4e@floodgap.com> In-Reply-To: <002201d8cfc8$d69fdf00$83df9d00$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1342191447486999815==" --===============1342191447486999815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like i386 to = i486 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems as if the i960 act= ually came first and although a RISC chip it was in no way in the same league= as the i860. Anyone can clarify or verify this? I'm not even sure I'd call them related. The i960 is a very different, almost "normal" RISC chip compared to the i860, though it uses Berkeley register windows like SPARC. It has excellent XOR performance, so it got used a lot later on in RAID arrays (my Apple Network Server 500 has a RAID card with an i960 on it). A few systems used it and it was popular in military applications but it never achieved its potential mostly due to internal politics at Intel = -- not because it sucked -- and the DEC StrongARM settlement mostly put a stake through it. --=20 ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ = -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.c= om -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity = -- --===============1342191447486999815==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 24 05:57:25 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Memex from 1945 Pre-computer Information Tech Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 23:57:09 -0600 Message-ID: <1c78de70-b348-befc-a13e-dd442ebd41ae@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3141027981115213893==" --===============3141027981115213893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2022-09-23 5:26 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > As for the defense maps, they really DID exist.  Our university had some > bits of SAGE, and one of the things was the big map projector.  The way > the thing worked was a small CRT was projected onto movie film, the film > ran through a developer, and then was projected onto a large screen.  I > don't know what the delay for film processing was, but it must have been > 30 seconds or so. > > Jon > That rememinded me of another project, The Memex from 1945. A hyper-text terminal before the internet using micro film and other analog media of the day. Output was dry film process. https://trevor.smith.name/project/memex/ https://retrocomputingforum.com/t/trevor-flowers-rebuilds-memex-and-alto/2740 Ben. --===============3141027981115213893==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat Sep 24 10:24:41 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 12:24:17 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002201d8cfc8$d69fdf00$83df9d00$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4631320607427706866==" --===============4631320607427706866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 24 Sept 2022 at 05:50, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like i386 to = i486 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems as if the i960 act= ually came first and although a RISC chip it was in no way in the same league= as the i860. Yes, me too. This has come as a bit of a surprise to me in fact. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============4631320607427706866==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat Sep 24 13:38:23 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Project Monterey booting in 2022 Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 15:38:00 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7474036627063215261==" --===============7474036627063215261== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://virtuallyfun.com/wordpress/2022/09/24/ibm-aix-for-ia64-itanium-aka-pr= oject-monterey-runs-again/ --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============7474036627063215261==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 24 17:16:44 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 13:16:31 -0400 Message-ID: <760A46F9-B4B5-4C7D-A147-2879DD193345@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8622949511189407535==" --===============8622949511189407535== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 10:57 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Wow someone mentioning =C3=A0 phillips p series "Philips" (one l). Their numbering is weird. My first assembly language programming was on a PR= 8000, an extremely obscure 24 bit minicomputer. It doesn't seem to have any = relation to anything else, but it still is a P-something. paul --===============8622949511189407535==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Sat Sep 24 17:30:14 2022 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 19:20:58 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7500729671273904762==" --===============7500729671273904762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > Wow someone mentioning à phillips p series > Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and à > spare core memory pack in safe keeping I have spare P854's..... Jos --===============7500729671273904762==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Sep 24 17:45:12 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 13:44:57 -0400 Message-ID: <20BEE9CC-8059-4D3E-A1FA-8181FBFD8098@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <002201d8cfc8$d69fdf00$83df9d00$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8464119442449121441==" --===============8464119442449121441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 23, 2022, at 11:50 PM, Ali via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like i386 to = i486 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems as if the i960 act= ually came first and although a RISC chip it was in no way in the same league= as the i860. Anyone can clarify or verify this? I have very bad memories of the i960 from my time at Chipcom. The main memor= y I have is that it uses an utterly misdesigned queue based I/O architecture,= full of race conditions. I think it's the same "design" used in the much ma= ligned i82586 Ethernet chip. The odd thing is that others had done correct and race-free queue designs a d= ecade or two earlier, but Intel never showed any sign of design competence an= d it is just an example of this that they screwed up I/O queues so badly. paul --===============8464119442449121441==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Sat Sep 24 22:00:18 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 16:59:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1956560540263765382==" --===============1956560540263765382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit o? On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:30 PM jos via cctalk wrote: > On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > Wow someone mentioning à phillips p series > > Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and à > > spare core memory pack in safe keeping > > > I have spare P854's..... > > Jos > > --===============1956560540263765382==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Sun Sep 25 01:36:21 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 18:36:01 -0700 Message-ID: <2addbbc6-12d9-c465-2ebb-648dc8970af1@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5332420483051968877==" --===============5332420483051968877== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/24/22 14:59, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > o? > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:30 PM jos via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >>> Wow someone mentioning à phillips p series >>> Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and à >>> spare core memory pack in safe keeping >> >> I have spare P854's..... >> >> Jos >> >> There is Oscar's actual computers, a PDP 11 replica and PDP8 replica as well as great IMSAI and Altairs available which look great as well as being actual simulators or emulators of the computers, with the  lights, not just dead displays. For display, on could get front panels from Ron Smallwood and produce switches and the other few parts required by 3d printing and make a pretty good display panel. thanks Jim --===============5332420483051968877==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Sun Sep 25 03:29:30 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 22:29:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2addbbc6-12d9-c465-2ebb-648dc8970af1@jwsss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2860517696131975149==" --===============2860517696131975149== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ive got a 8i i need to finish rebuilding https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/34539786085/in/photolist-UsNVQc-UnZy3U-UnX= oiN-UCar4c-Tj2Q4F-svoMkx-rRe2wa-sMGsvE-snF3C3-snMK88-snF3G1-sqYYGV-sr1sL2-shW= VmZ-seqzS6-rhEMQD-rhtjmd-sdACea-Mfq4ar-KhqDsy On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 8:36 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 9/24/22 14:59, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > o? > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:30 PM jos via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > >>> Wow someone mentioning =C3=A0 phillips p series > >>> Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and > =C3=A0 > >>> spare core memory pack in safe keeping > >> > >> I have spare P854's..... > >> > >> Jos > >> > >> > There is Oscar's actual computers, a PDP 11 replica and PDP8 replica as > well as great IMSAI and Altairs available which look great as well as > being actual simulators or emulators of the computers, with the lights, > not just dead displays. > > For display, on could get front panels from Ron Smallwood and produce > switches and the other few parts required by 3d printing and make a > pretty good display panel. > > thanks > Jim > --===============2860517696131975149==-- From sellam.ismail@gmail.com Sun Sep 25 04:24:35 2022 From: Sellam Abraham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 21:24:09 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5216538699524238739==" --===============5216538699524238739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rebuild as in Steve Austin. Holy crap. Sellam On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 8:29 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > ive got a 8i i need to finish rebuilding > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/34539786085/in/photolist-UsNVQc-UnZy3U-U= nXoiN-UCar4c-Tj2Q4F-svoMkx-rRe2wa-sMGsvE-snF3C3-snMK88-snF3G1-sqYYGV-sr1sL2-s= hWVmZ-seqzS6-rhEMQD-rhtjmd-sdACea-Mfq4ar-KhqDsy > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 8:36 PM jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On 9/24/22 14:59, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > o? > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:30 PM jos via cctalk > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > >>> Wow someone mentioning =C3=A0 phillips p series > > >>> Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals > and > > =C3=A0 > > >>> spare core memory pack in safe keeping > > >> > > >> I have spare P854's..... > > >> > > >> Jos > > >> > > >> > > There is Oscar's actual computers, a PDP 11 replica and PDP8 replica as > > well as great IMSAI and Altairs available which look great as well as > > being actual simulators or emulators of the computers, with the lights, > > not just dead displays. > > > > For display, on could get front panels from Ron Smallwood and produce > > switches and the other few parts required by 3d printing and make a > > pretty good display panel. > > > > thanks > > Jim > > > --===============5216538699524238739==-- From jos.dreesen@greenmail.ch Sun Sep 25 08:05:37 2022 From: jos To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 10:05:12 +0200 Message-ID: <6d1c1515-370a-473c-8857-590b85beb000@greenmail.ch> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8182684407338682064==" --===============8182684407338682064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24.09.22 23:59, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > o? > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:30 PM jos via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >>> Wow someone mentioning =C3=A0 phillips p series >>> Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and = =C3=A0 >>> spare core memory pack in safe keeping >> >> I have spare P854's..... >> >> Jos >> >> I have spare Philips P854 systems and CPU cards. These are AMD2901 based impl= ementations of the Philips P85x series. They have VFD-based panel. They have semiconductor memories, as opposed to the P856/857 which use core m= emory. These use lights-and-switches panel. Jos --===============8182684407338682064==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Sun Sep 25 13:42:31 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 08:42:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4367126080532060617==" --===============4367126080532060617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yea was found in the mud the press board preic spent a few yrs outside after i found the first bits yet it survived had put it under some weight for few weeks to get rid of the curve it had https://live.staticflickr.com/4159/34433937071_ddcbdb994a_b.jpg On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 11:24 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Rebuild as in Steve Austin. Holy crap. > > Sellam > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 8:29 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > ive got a 8i i need to finish rebuilding > > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/34539786085/in/photolist-UsNVQc-UnZy3U-U= nXoiN-UCar4c-Tj2Q4F-svoMkx-rRe2wa-sMGsvE-snF3C3-snMK88-snF3G1-sqYYGV-sr1sL2-s= hWVmZ-seqzS6-rhEMQD-rhtjmd-sdACea-Mfq4ar-KhqDsy > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 8:36 PM jim stephens via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/24/22 14:59, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > > o? > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:30 PM jos via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> Wow someone mentioning =C3=A0 phillips p series > > > >>> Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals > > and > > > =C3=A0 > > > >>> spare core memory pack in safe keeping > > > >> > > > >> I have spare P854's..... > > > >> > > > >> Jos > > > >> > > > >> > > > There is Oscar's actual computers, a PDP 11 replica and PDP8 replica as > > > well as great IMSAI and Altairs available which look great as well as > > > being actual simulators or emulators of the computers, with the > lights, > > > not just dead displays. > > > > > > For display, on could get front panels from Ron Smallwood and produce > > > switches and the other few parts required by 3d printing and make a > > > pretty good display panel. > > > > > > thanks > > > Jim > > > > > > --===============4367126080532060617==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Sun Sep 25 15:26:20 2022 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 16:25:59 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2506941495202974015==" --===============2506941495202974015== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have a Philips P2000C CP/M luggable with the carrying strap? I will be restoring such a machine in the near-ish future and mine is lacking the strap. Clear photos of the end fittings that slot into the machine, the dimensions of them, etc would be a great help in making something up. -tony --===============2506941495202974015==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Sun Sep 25 15:40:10 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 10:39:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1330834334231120241==" --===============1330834334231120241== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit get ahold of the phillips radio museum in holland they might have photos? they have some of the computers on display On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:26 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does anyone have a Philips P2000C CP/M luggable with the carrying strap? > > I will be restoring such a machine in the near-ish future and mine is > lacking the strap. Clear photos of the end fittings that slot into the > machine, the dimensions of them, etc would be a great help in making > something up. > > -tony > --===============1330834334231120241==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Sun Sep 25 15:43:27 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 10:43:05 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0529744095182517550==" --===============0529744095182517550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://www.radiomuseum.org/museum/nl/philips-historical-products-eindhoven/ On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:39 AM Adrian Stoness wrote: > get ahold of the phillips radio museum in holland they might have photos? > > they have some of the computers on display > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:26 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone have a Philips P2000C CP/M luggable with the carrying strap? >> >> I will be restoring such a machine in the near-ish future and mine is >> lacking the strap. Clear photos of the end fittings that slot into the >> machine, the dimensions of them, etc would be a great help in making >> something up. >> >> -tony >> > --===============0529744095182517550==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Sep 25 17:28:54 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 10:28:41 -0700 Message-ID: <001801d8d104$426db4f0$c7491ed0$@net> In-Reply-To: <687e6622-cc51-bc12-dc1c-478657c8ef4e@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4280283409769448743==" --===============4280283409769448743== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'm not even sure I'd call them related. The i960 is a very different, > almost > "normal" RISC chip compared to the i860, though it uses Berkeley > register > windows like SPARC. It has excellent XOR performance, so it got used a > lot > later on in RAID arrays (my Apple Network Server 500 has a RAID card > with an > i960 on it). Thanks that explains most of what I have seen. I have also seen it used on a = number of SCSI controllers of yore and I believe the HP LJ 4 also used the i9= 60 for its processor.=20 Outside of the Hauppauge 4860 I don't think I have ever seen a PC architectur= e board with the i860 and I am not even sure how much use the Hauppauge board= got out of the i860 except for video processing. -Ali --===============4280283409769448743==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Mon Sep 26 07:18:08 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 08:17:52 +0100 Message-ID: <126765c5.30e.18378a8ce78.Webtop.115@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1463894299107290444==" --===============1463894299107290444== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------ Original Message ------ From: "Adrian Stoness via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "Adrian Stoness" Sent: Sunday, 25 Sep, 2022 At 14:42 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. yea was found in the mud the press board preic spent a few yrs outside after i found the first bits yet it survived had put it under some weight for few weeks to get rid of the curve it had https://live.staticflickr.com/4159/34433937071_ddcbdb994a_b.jpg Wow, that thing is pretty well wrecked. I have a bunch of PDP-8 flips chips i bought for display purposes, but i wouldn't mind them to go to a restoration. I'll have a look and see what i've got. There is (was?) a very good resource listing most flip chips, with good photos of each and even sometimes PCB layout files somewhere on the internet. https://www.pdp8online.com/r-boards/r-boards.shtml#pictures seems to have some, but isn't quite what i remember finding. All the best in that very challenging restoration. Josh --===============1463894299107290444==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Mon Sep 26 08:48:41 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:48:14 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4634863044313394640==" --===============4634863044313394640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adrian's find is true computer archaeology. It will be fit for a museum of 20th century computing ... in 1000 years. ;-) On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 9:42 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > yea was found in the mud the press board preic spent a few yrs outside > after i found the first bits yet it survived had put it under some weight > for few weeks to get rid of the curve it had > > https://live.staticflickr.com/4159/34433937071_ddcbdb994a_b.jpg > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 11:24 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Rebuild as in Steve Austin. Holy crap. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 8:29 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > ive got a 8i i need to finish rebuilding > > > > > > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/34539786085/in/photolist-UsNVQc-UnZy3U-U= nXoiN-UCar4c-Tj2Q4F-svoMkx-rRe2wa-sMGsvE-snF3C3-snMK88-snF3G1-sqYYGV-sr1sL2-s= hWVmZ-seqzS6-rhEMQD-rhtjmd-sdACea-Mfq4ar-KhqDsy > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 8:36 PM jim stephens via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/24/22 14:59, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > > > o? > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:30 PM jos via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> On 24.09.22 04:57, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > > >>> Wow someone mentioning =C3=A0 phillips p series > > > > >>> Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of > manuals > > > and > > > > =C3=A0 > > > > >>> spare core memory pack in safe keeping > > > > >> > > > > >> I have spare P854's..... > > > > >> > > > > >> Jos > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > There is Oscar's actual computers, a PDP 11 replica and PDP8 replica > as > > > > well as great IMSAI and Altairs available which look great as well as > > > > being actual simulators or emulators of the computers, with the > > lights, > > > > not just dead displays. > > > > > > > > For display, on could get front panels from Ron Smallwood and produce > > > > switches and the other few parts required by 3d printing and make a > > > > pretty good display panel. > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > --===============4634863044313394640==-- From spacewar@gmail.com Mon Sep 26 22:46:09 2022 From: Eric Smith To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:45:42 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002201d8cfc8$d69fdf00$83df9d00$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0642898765512962829==" --===============0642898765512962829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 21:50 Ali via cctalk wrote: > I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like i386 to > i486 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems as if the i960 > actually came first and although a RISC chip it was in no way in the same > league as the i860. Anyone can clarify or verify this? They're totally unrelated, except that they both came from Intel. The i960 was the BiiN processor, stripped (in most versions) of the tagged memory and capability architecture. The BiiN processor was an attempt to keep the "good parts" of the iAPX 432, without the huge performance penalty of the 432 as compared to "normal" processors (e.g., MC68000). So the i960 basically threw away the BiiN's vestiges of the 432, transforming it into a "normal" processor. It was successful in embedded applications, such as laser printer. I don't know the development history of the i860, but it is not similar in any way to the i960. There were some Unix workstations based on the i960, but many sources claim that it didn't meet expectations because of the exposed pipeline (making compiler development difficult), imprecise exceptions, and expensive context switching. --===============0642898765512962829==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Tue Sep 27 01:43:59 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 20:43:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <126765c5.30e.18378a8ce78.Webtop.115@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5941245822448775836==" --===============5941245822448775836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the site ur talking about belongs to Vincent Slyngstad who i got the replacement boards off https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/index.php On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 2:18 AM Joshua Rice via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Adrian Stoness via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: "Adrian Stoness" > Sent: Sunday, 25 Sep, 2022 At 14:42 > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. > yea was found in the mud the press board preic spent a few yrs outside > after i found the first bits yet it survived had put it under some > weight > for few weeks to get rid of the curve it had > https://live.staticflickr.com/4159/34433937071_ddcbdb994a_b.jpg > > > > > Wow, that thing is pretty well wrecked. > > I have a bunch of PDP-8 flips chips i bought for display purposes, but i > wouldn't mind them to go to a restoration. I'll have a look and see what > i've got. > > There is (was?) a very good resource listing most flip chips, with good > photos of each and even sometimes PCB layout files somewhere on the > internet. https://www.pdp8online.com/r-boards/r-boards.shtml#pictures > seems to have some, but isn't quite what i remember finding. > > All the best in that very challenging restoration. > > Josh > --===============5941245822448775836==-- From peveep@gmail.com Tue Sep 27 06:10:54 2022 From: Peter Van Peborgh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Response from the list manager Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 14:00:59 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8516100449398979835==" --===============8516100449398979835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it just me? I have recently sent an email to this guy about two different topics. There was no response in either case. What is going on? Or am I missing something? Many thanks, peter vp --===============8516100449398979835==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Tue Sep 27 13:14:58 2022 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 07:27:11 -0500 Message-ID: <20220927131448.40AE2819F9@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <39913137-cb81-bbfb-8d28-9245b13a66d8@12bitsbest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6200187674184486774==" --===============6200187674184486774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 06:29 PM 9/23/2022, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >Unfortunately there are some collectors who are also resellers so they buy e= ntire lots, keep what they want and sell the rest on eBay at high prices. Storage space isn't free, even if the mortgage is already paid. - John --===============6200187674184486774==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Tue Sep 27 13:28:46 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Response from the list manager Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:28:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6039259055204595669==" --===============6039259055204595669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hes prolly on vacation On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 1:10 AM Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is it just me? I have recently sent an email to this guy about two > different topics. There was no response in either case. What is going on? > Or am I missing something? > > Many thanks, > > peter vp > --===============6039259055204595669==-- From ljw-cctech@ljw.me.uk Tue Sep 27 15:00:56 2022 From: ljw-cctech@ljw.me.uk To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Response from the list manager Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:00:44 +0000 Message-ID: <166429084454.2127592.11322266833760760080@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8500540741370903797==" --===============8500540741370903797== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter, replying here as I've sent you a couple of messages (16.08, 24.09) so = maybe they're being canned somewhere. I'm not the list admin, only a moderato= r, but I see your messages. --=20 Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence(a)ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk --===============8500540741370903797==-- From Stefan.Skoglund@agj.net Tue Sep 27 21:43:39 2022 From: Stefan Skoglund To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 23:28:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0375411247644976116==" --===============0375411247644976116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fre 2022-09-23 klockan 10:30 -0400 skrev emanuel stiebler via cctalk: > Hi all, > anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? > Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain > which > supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days > tools/OS's? > > Anything? > > Thanks in advance! pick together something like a sunos 5 or sunos4 machine and build the tool-chain on that ? i believe it is enough building binutils (which has gas) and gcc late 90s version. The trouble is mainly finding a compiled compiler for sunos5. Sun's compiler in sunos4 is part of the OS, not unbundled. NetBSD or FreeBSD is another possibility. --===============0375411247644976116==-- From Stefan.Skoglund@agj.net Tue Sep 27 21:43:48 2022 From: Stefan Skoglund To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 23:29:17 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <687e6622-cc51-bc12-dc1c-478657c8ef4e@floodgap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2361040616007225671==" --===============2361040616007225671== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fre 2022-09-23 klockan 22:27 -0700 skrev Cameron Kaiser via cctalk: > > I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like > > i386 to i486 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems > > as if the i960 actually came first and although a RISC chip it was > > in no way in the same league as the i860. Anyone can clarify or > > verify this? > I'm not even sure I'd call them related. The i960 is a very > different, almost > "normal" RISC chip compared to the i860, though it uses Berkeley > register > windows like SPARC. It has excellent XOR performance, so it got used > a lot > later on in RAID arrays (my Apple Network Server 500 has a RAID card > with an > i960 on it). A few systems used it and it was popular in military > applications > but it never achieved its potential mostly due to internal politics > at Intel -- > not because it sucked -- and the DEC StrongARM settlement mostly put > a stake > through it. > and a number of X terminals. --===============2361040616007225671==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Sep 27 23:43:31 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 19:43:17 -0400 Message-ID: <6EF6C1D0-71CD-4DC4-BCD5-C50B1CEA7C4B@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0292432691025825212==" --===============0292432691025825212== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 27, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >=20 > fre 2022-09-23 klockan 10:30 -0400 skrev emanuel stiebler via cctalk: >> Hi all, >> anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? >> Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain >> which=20 >> supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days >> tools/OS's? >>=20 >> Anything? >>=20 >> Thanks in advance! >=20 > pick together something like a sunos 5 or sunos4 machine and build the > tool-chain on that ? I don't know how old a GCC you can build on current machines. The other way = around, yes. But it's hard to see why old on new would be a problem. You ca= n grab any GCC version you want and try it yourself. As for when i860 disappeared, no idea. The release notes would say, so you c= ould search those. Or the ChangeLogs. A quick scan says that i860 support w= as removed in 2002, put back in 2003. The newest reference is in 2005. So i= f you grab a 2004 release of GCC it's likely to have the support. Similarly, FWIW, I see references to i960 in the 2003 ChangeLog. paul --===============0292432691025825212==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Sep 28 00:19:34 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 20:18:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6EF6C1D0-71CD-4DC4-BCD5-C50B1CEA7C4B@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8530911361052046492==" --===============8530911361052046492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 27, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 27, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> fre 2022-09-23 klockan 10:30 -0400 skrev emanuel stiebler via cctalk: >>> Hi all, >>> anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? >>> Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain >>> which=20 >>> supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days >>> tools/OS's? >>>=20 >>> Anything? >>>=20 >>> Thanks in advance! >>=20 >> pick together something like a sunos 5 or sunos4 machine and build the >> tool-chain on that ? >=20 > I don't know how old a GCC you can build on current machines. The other wa= y around, yes. But it's hard to see why old on new would be a problem. You = can grab any GCC version you want and try it yourself. FWIW, I just tried building GCC 2.95.2 on my Linux system (Fedora Core 32, GC= C 10.3.1. It almost built, ran into an argument mismatch error message in so= mething called "chill". So if you want something that old it looks like you'= ll have to start by building a less ancient version, say 4.8 or so, and then = use that to build the dinosaur. paul --===============8530911361052046492==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Wed Sep 28 15:54:01 2022 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Timeline of Computer History Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:53:31 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5694718309592839935==" --===============5694718309592839935== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just stumbled across this nice "Timeline of Computer History" from the CHM: https://www.computerhistory.org/timeline/computers/ I have not seen this before and thought it may be of interest to this list. Tom --===============5694718309592839935==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Fri Sep 30 17:54:44 2022 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 19:12:41 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1157254643304317887==" --===============1157254643304317887== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:39:46AM -0500, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:26 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Does anyone have a Philips P2000C CP/M luggable with the carrying strap? >> I will be restoring such a machine in the near-ish future and mine is >> lacking the strap. Clear photos of the end fittings that slot into the >> machine, the dimensions of them, etc would be a great help in making >> something up. > get ahold of the phillips radio museum in holland they might have photos? > they have some of the computers on display Note that there are (at least) _two_ Philips museums: the "Stichting tot Behoud van Historische Philips Producten" (Foundation for the Preservation of Historic Philips Products) and the Philips Museum. Their websites are https://www.sbhp.nl/ and https://www.philips-museum.com/. Both are in Eindhoven, as is much of the interesting bits of Philips itself. The former appears to be volunteer collectors of mainly analogue-era Philips gear and I can almost smell the chain-smoked roll-ups just from the photos, whereas the latter looks rather more corporate. (I am occasionally contacted by Philips' recruiters trying to lure me to work at some nasty industrial park near Eindhoven airport. There is usually tumbleweed after I point out the seven hour commute and ask if they've considered remote-working.) I only note this because I have Weekend Vrij and a Museumkaart, and my random spin for where to visit this weekend landed on Eindhoven and thence to the Philips Museum, which reminded me of this thread. Unfortunatly, SBHP is closed at weekends (and doesn't accept Museumkaart, but I could have probably scraped together the €4 entry fee) which is a shame as it looks by far the more interesting of the two. If I spot a P2000C and remember, I'll try and get a photo although I doubt they'll let me dig it out of the cabinet and go over it with my micrometer... It may also be worth reaching out to the HomeComputerMuseum (sic) in Helmond (https://www.homecomputermuseum.nl/) who are quite friendly and have a well-curated collection, including quite a lot of Philips gear. It's not directly relevant to this query, but they have a very impressive collection of CD-i machines, hardware prototypes, and media. They have a P2000C, which is on display for the public to use, and a suitable donation would probably get all the photos and measurements you want: https://www.homecomputermuseum.nl/en/collectie/philips/philips-p2000c/ As a last resort, there's the Bonami Games and Computers Museum in Zwolle (https://computermuseum.nl/) although it's basically just a huge barn with a load of random stuff piled in it and poor labelling, so I'd try them last: I took some lovely atmospheric pictures of 60s and 70s Big Iron when I visited, but have no idea what half of it is. I suspect they don't know either. --===============1157254643304317887==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Sep 30 18:13:03 2022 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fwd: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:12:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0946043415744663372==" --===============0946043415744663372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable its nice seeing phillips getting some love its some interesting history On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:54 PM Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:39:46AM -0500, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:26 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone have a Philips P2000C CP/M luggable with the carrying strap? > >> I will be restoring such a machine in the near-ish future and mine is > >> lacking the strap. Clear photos of the end fittings that slot into the > >> machine, the dimensions of them, etc would be a great help in making > >> something up. > > > get ahold of the phillips radio museum in holland they might have photos? > > they have some of the computers on display > > Note that there are (at least) _two_ Philips museums: the "Stichting tot > Behoud van Historische Philips Producten" (Foundation for the Preservation > of Historic Philips Products) and the Philips Museum. Their websites are > https://www.sbhp.nl/ and https://www.philips-museum.com/. Both are in > Eindhoven, as is much of the interesting bits of Philips itself. > > The former appears to be volunteer collectors of mainly analogue-era > Philips > gear and I can almost smell the chain-smoked roll-ups just from the photos, > whereas the latter looks rather more corporate. > > (I am occasionally contacted by Philips' recruiters trying to lure me to > work at some nasty industrial park near Eindhoven airport. There is usually > tumbleweed after I point out the seven hour commute and ask if they've > considered remote-working.) > > I only note this because I have Weekend Vrij and a Museumkaart, and my > random spin for where to visit this weekend landed on Eindhoven and thence > to the Philips Museum, which reminded me of this thread. Unfortunatly, SBHP > is closed at weekends (and doesn't accept Museumkaart, but I could have > probably scraped together the =E2=82=AC4 entry fee) which is a shame as it = looks by > far the more interesting of the two. If I spot a P2000C and remember, I'll > try and get a photo although I doubt they'll let me dig it out of the > cabinet and go over it with my micrometer... > > It may also be worth reaching out to the HomeComputerMuseum (sic) in > Helmond > (https://www.homecomputermuseum.nl/) who are quite friendly and have a > well-curated collection, including quite a lot of Philips gear. It's not > directly relevant to this query, but they have a very impressive collection > of CD-i machines, hardware prototypes, and media. They have a P2000C, which > is on display for the public to use, and a suitable donation would probably > get all the photos and measurements you want: > https://www.homecomputermuseum.nl/en/collectie/philips/philips-p2000c/ > > As a last resort, there's the Bonami Games and Computers Museum in Zwolle > (https://computermuseum.nl/) although it's basically just a huge barn > with a > load of random stuff piled in it and poor labelling, so I'd try them last: > I > took some lovely atmospheric pictures of 60s and 70s Big Iron when I > visited, but have no idea what half of it is. I suspect they don't know > either. > > --===============0946043415744663372==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Sep 30 20:54:29 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C carrying strap Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 16:53:51 -0400 Message-ID: <39483BF5-CAE9-4D81-93E0-3D409481D219@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4082159986691809949==" --===============4082159986691809949== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sep 30, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> ... >=20 > Note that there are (at least) _two_ Philips museums: the "Stichting tot > Behoud van Historische Philips Producten" (Foundation for the Preservation > of Historic Philips Products) and the Philips Museum. Their websites are > https://www.sbhp.nl/ and https://www.philips-museum.com/. Both are in > Eindhoven, as is much of the interesting bits of Philips itself. >=20 > The former appears to be volunteer collectors of mainly analogue-era Philips > gear and I can almost smell the chain-smoked roll-ups just from the photos, > whereas the latter looks rather more corporate. It's hard to see what the significance of the latter is, if any. The website= has a "collection" tab that doesn't say anything about a collection. The "e= yecatchers" tab speaks of an exhibit of Philips advertising posters. Ok, nic= e, but what does that have to do with the technology and products and enormou= s R&D contribution of the company? The former at least shows something about the collection, a set of nice photo= s of stuff. That and a hint that there is more -- but no description of what= that might be. I keep wondering if anything whatsoever about the PR8000 has been preserved a= nywhere. I have a marketing brochure that I scanned and sent to Bitsavers, p= lus some notes about the parts of the instruction set that show up in a progr= am of mine. But I've never seen anything else, even finding any mention of t= he machine is nearly impossible. I still regret I didn't save the Stirling cryogenic machine brochures I had a= s a teenager -- neat machines Philips built for easily and cheaply making lab= quantities of liquid nitrogen and even liquid helium. Some were backpack si= ze, apparently for airborne applications. I also had a brochure of their neu= tron generator tube, which is a pretty wild device. paul --===============4082159986691809949==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:24 2023 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2022 09:53:45 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2731141621772974489==" --===============2731141621772974489== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just happen to have 2 RX02's hungry for diskettes 😁 BTW, the greaseweazle can format RX01 format diskettes quite nicely. On 9/1/2022 9:36 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Are they IBM preformatted? If so they could work in someone's RX01/RX02. > > C > > On 9/1/2022 7:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in >>> their garage. >>> >>> Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. >>> >>> Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. >>> >>> Was that even possible on 8" disks? >>> >>> (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I >>> never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home >>> computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives >>> at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and >>> cheapest media.) >>> >> It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. >> The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other >> mailer diskettes writable.  Never did the double side thing >> much if ever. >> >> Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make >> coasters or trash them. >> thanks >> Jim >> --===============2731141621772974489==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:24 2023 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF Swap Meet October 8, 2022 @ InfoAge Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 20:35:27 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1153691790.2826956.1662925884925@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5613681469556300395==" --===============5613681469556300395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It says =E2=80=9C We are in pre-planning for the outdoor swap meet in Wall, N= J (near InfoAge). =E2=80=9D Glasses are good to use when the eyes start to go.=F0=9F=99=82 Sent from my iPhone On Sep 11, 2022, at 12:51, Will Cooke via cctalk wr= ote: =EF=BB=BF On 09/11/2022 12:47 PM CDT Jeffrey Brace via cctalk = wrote: The following info is found here: https://vcfed.org/vcf-swap-meet/, but I'm pasting here for your reference. Interesting. Unless I'm blind, nowhere in that email or the linked flyer doe= s it state what city and state (or country) it's in. --===============5613681469556300395==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Mon Feb 13 08:46:24 2023 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 05:12:36 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1285593641890083397==" --===============1285593641890083397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is indeed the PCChips M720 Elpina main board. I found a clear example in another auction of the exact same board here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/373903331243 It's always interesting how sellers do not know what they have. This may also be the reason it has not sold. Maybe the seller is using the listing fees as a tax write off. There are certainly some real "Eagle Eyes" within this user group. 😊 Thanks again. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: John Herron via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2022 1:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: John Herron Subject: [cctalk] Re: Identity of this PII PC Main board? Maybe this pc chips m720 motherboard? http://hw-museum.cz/mb/69/pc-chips-m720 On Tue, Sep 13, 2022, 1:11 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > The seller has this listed as a Gigabyte GA-6BXU Rev 1.5 mainboard. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/195259246091 > > According to Gigabyte's website the GA-6BXU has only one CPU slot. > This one as you can see has two. > > The only dual Pentium II slot main board I could find manufactured by > Gigabyte is the GA-6BXDS shown here: > > https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXDS#ov > > Notice the number of electrolytic capacitors beside one of the CPU > slots is different from that shown in the main board for sale. > > The seller has not responded to my inquiries which may be a tip off in > itself. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > > > --===============1285593641890083397==--