From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Aug 1 00:30:19 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Old fashioned PCB layout images, red/blue Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 20:29:47 -0400 Message-ID: <056a01d8a53d$cedbd090$6c9371b0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <056a01d8a53d$cedbd090$6c9371b0$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2971123418243322594==" --===============2971123418243322594== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, What is the "correct" name for the style (technology?) of circuit board layout images where the top is blue, the bottom is red and overlaps are purple? Also, any silkscreen is black. I thought someone once told me that there was an automated tool (maybe in KiCad?) that would produce Gerbers from that type of image. Does anyone know of such a utility? Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --===============2971123418243322594==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Mon Aug 1 01:41:15 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 18:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: <003d01d8a547$cbd14420$6373cc60$@net> In-Reply-To: <4LwxF32CSCzfYm@panix5.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4794186618573472975==" --===============4794186618573472975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What you have been describing, and what no one else seems to have > twigged to, > is what we called a TIP ("terminal interface processor") or EtherTIP > (because > it sat directly on the 3Mbit/10Mbit Ethernet, unlike the ARPANET TIPs > that sat > on a 56Kbit leased line). There were dozens of these scattered across Rich, That is quite interesting. I suspected that such devices probably have been around for a long time in some form or another but I had never heard the term EtherTIP. As Jonathan pointed out the Lantronix devices have the same capability by putting them into modem emulation mode and then using the ADTD(IP ADDRESS:PORT) command. I am not sure how capable the telnet client is but I would guess it may have been as good as the Cisco boxes. If I do roll my own Pi solution I at least now know how to properly refer to it :D. Thanks. -Ali --===============4794186618573472975==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Mon Aug 1 02:03:11 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old fashioned PCB layout images, red/blue Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 21:03:07 -0500 Message-ID: <1260634045.2160271.1659319387174@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <056a01d8a53d$cedbd090$6c9371b0$@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5622893481754799032==" --===============5622893481754799032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/31/2022 7:29 PM CDT William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 >=20 >=20 > What is the "correct" name for the style (technology?) of circuit board > layout images where the top is blue, the bottom is red and overlaps are > purple? Also, any silkscreen is black. I thought someone once told me that > there was an automated tool (maybe in KiCad?) that would produce Gerbers > from that type of image. Does anyone know of such a utility? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Bill S. >=20 I originally sent this to the list, but it was rejected. So here it is again. You can import a graphics file into kicad and create a footprint / component = from it. I have only used it to import an image to put onto the silkscreen s= o I don't know what all it can do. I'm using kicad 5.1.9 and from the main (= initial) window click Tools -> Convert Image to bring up the image import too= l. HTH, Will P.S. I also found this link that may be of interest: https://forum.kicad.info/t/copy-a-old-board-layout-into-kicad/26717/25 --===============5622893481754799032==-- From fritzm@fritzm.org Mon Aug 1 02:36:24 2022 From: Fritz Mueller To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 19:36:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5472588945069327813==" --===============5472588945069327813== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 10:23 PM Ali via cctalk w= rote: > So I am wondering if there is a box that provides a telnet CLIENT to a > serial port device? I.E. a box smart enough that handles the telnet client, > LAN functions, and terminal emulations internally and then provides a text > based interface through a serial port that is compatible with my physical > terminal? > On Jul 31, 2022, at 12:51 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > You can do what I believe it is that you want with any Digi > PortServer. +1 for the Digi Portserver for this application. I recently grabbed one off = eBay, because I have a number of vintage terminals here which I would like to= =E2=80=9Ccrossbar=E2=80=9D to a number of vintage computers with serial term= inal support, and also provide both telnet out (vintage terminals telnet to m= odern systems) and in (LAN or WAN terminal emulator clients to serial ports o= n vintage systems). The Portserver looks like it is going to do this job nic= ely. The only feature it doesn=E2=80=99t appear to have which I would like to have= is =E2=80=9Crotaries=E2=80=9D, allowing automatic selection of an idle seria= l port from a group when connecting to a back end system that supports multip= le serial lines. But it was a lot more affordable used than the Cisco equiva= lents. =E2=80=94FritzM. --===============5472588945069327813==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Aug 1 02:41:31 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Old fashioned PCB layout images, red/blue Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 21:25:55 -0500 Message-ID: <96f6e54a-ce54-b1fe-157a-61d21dea7f18@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: <1260634045.2160271.1659319387174@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5406952021992477398==" --===============5406952021992477398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I was doing that kind of work in the 80's we called it "Taping out=20 a circuit board", each layer was laid out on large sheets of mylar=20 (usually 2 x or 4 x actual size) with each layer "Taped Out" with=20 different color mylar tape. On 7/31/2022 9:03 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> On 07/31/2022 7:29 PM CDT William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> What is the "correct" name for the style (technology?) of circuit board >> layout images where the top is blue, the bottom is red and overlaps are >> purple? Also, any silkscreen is black. I thought someone once told me that >> there was an automated tool (maybe in KiCad?) that would produce Gerbers >> from that type of image. Does anyone know of such a utility? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill S. >> > I originally sent this to the list, but it was rejected. So here it is aga= in. > > You can import a graphics file into kicad and create a footprint / componen= t from it. I have only used it to import an image to put onto the silkscreen= so I don't know what all it can do. I'm using kicad 5.1.9 and from the main= (initial) window click Tools -> Convert Image to bring up the image import t= ool. > > HTH, > Will > > P.S. I also found this link that may be of interest: > https://forum.kicad.info/t/copy-a-old-board-layout-into-kicad/26717/25 --===============5406952021992477398==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Aug 1 06:04:21 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 07:49:03 +0200 Message-ID: <93994ac6-c81c-7bb6-ad1e-7656cc6d6b64@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> In-Reply-To: <004a01d8a49d$9cab1c70$d6015550$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1720874636784659262==" --===============1720874636784659262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 30 Jul 2022, Ali wrote: > modern system using an IP:port schema. This works great except I don't get > to play with my shiny, new to me, authentic experience terminal device. Why not? You attach the terminal to your terminal server, too, and connect from the terminal to one of the other serial ports (or telnet/ssh to a remote over LAN). Christian --===============1720874636784659262==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Mon Aug 1 08:41:19 2022 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to reproduce the DEC cabinets' grey colour paint? Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 08:41:14 +0000 Message-ID: <1963433547.6591204.1659343274089@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5352822411898374000==" --===============5352822411898374000== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello list,=20 > > >My attempt at the colors from several years ago. > >http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ > >CHM =3D Color Harmony Manual Many thanks to those (especially Charles and Vincent) who gave me pointers on= how to reproduce the DEC grey colour of the DEC cabinets. I wasn't aware tha= t the colour codes were expressed in old standards. I don't have the impressi= on that the paint of cabinet side panels, for instance, faded over the years.= Again, just an impression, when comparing the color of different cabinets.=20 As soon as I have time, I will make a few tests and give feedback to the list= how it went.=20 Cheers,=20 Pierre --===============5352822411898374000==-- From cc@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Aug 1 09:59:38 2022 From: Christian Corti To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 11:59:29 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7233955570173010986==" --===============7233955570173010986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 31 Jul 2022, Fritz Mueller wrote: > +1 for the Digi Portserver for this application. I recently grabbed one > off eBay, because I have a number of vintage terminals here which I > would like to ?crossbar? to a number of vintage computers with serial > terminal support, and also provide both telnet out (vintage terminals > telnet to modern systems) and in (LAN or WAN terminal emulator clients > to serial ports on vintage systems). The Portserver looks like it is > going to do this job nicely. Doesn't any terminal server do the job? We have several different here. They all allow both terminal and host attachment to their ports, allow connections between serial ports, between a serial port and LAN (e.g. Telnet), in both directions (Telnet out, Telnet in), sometimes raw connections (without Telnet negotiation). Modern devices also implement SSH and Web Shells. The oldest device here is a Bridge CS/100 (still running). Then we have Emulex Performance 2500 and 4000, Lantronix ETS-16, a Digi Portserver (I don't like Digi, the ports often hang and have non-standard pinouts), Lantronix SLC, Avocent ACS 8000, ... All are capable of doing every mode of connection between serial ports/LAN. Christian --===============7233955570173010986==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Aug 1 12:58:10 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 08:58:04 -0400 Message-ID: <11FCA131-AE87-4220-9E5F-429A8D827BC5@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7896783999334411558==" --===============7896783999334411558== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 31, 2022, at 7:25 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 2:29 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> Yet another one is Raspberry Pico, >>=20 >> Neither of these come standard with Ethernet, though I've seen option card= s. In the case of Pico, it seems possible to do 10 Mb/s Ethernet in software= using its PIO controller, though I haven't made the attempt. >=20 > For an extra $1 now you can get integrated WiFi (and Bluetooth but > there isn't any BT software support yet) in the form of the $5 Pi > Pico W, so that's one route to talking to an IP network for IoT or > something like this. >=20 > A neat thing about the Pico is that you can do hard real-time > interface protocols using its PIO (Programmable I/O) channels and DMA > and still implement the whole thing in MicroPython. Yes, though the MicroPython PIO machinery is not well documented, I found mys= elf having to read the source code to understand it. But it's a great protot= yping tool. Thanks for the Pico W pointer, I'm going to look at that. paul --===============7896783999334411558==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Mon Aug 1 13:04:45 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Cheap Lantronix Hardware Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:04:30 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4516969293734068834==" --===============4516969293734068834== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Per the LAN-attached serial thread, here's another cheap Lantronix device: https://www.ebay.com/itm/123577635191 This is a LRS-2, which is basically a two-port LRS-1, one of their older mode= ls of serial bridges. The LRS-2 is nice not only for the two ports, but becau= se it also has AUI and thinnet. No PSU, but it's a typical 12V 1A center positive supply. Thanks, Jonathan --===============4516969293734068834==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Mon Aug 1 13:32:21 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:26:00 -0400 Message-ID: <499D6A5A-97A9-4106-8D51-55C081863B6E@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3775429833796380398==" --===============3775429833796380398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Over the years I have been collecting BBS related memorabilia such as Night O= wl shareware CDs, Boardwatch magazine, BBS magazine, books, manuals, original= disks, etc. Does anyone have any BBS memorabilia they might be willing to s= ell to me? I=E2=80=99m particularly interested in PCBoard box/disks/manuals= . I know the software can be downloaded from the Internet.. I=E2=80=99m inte= rested in the original box set. I=E2=80=99m also interested in CRS Online pa= mphlets, receipts, catalogues, etc. =20 Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv, Delphi, G= ENie, AOL? I've collected disks, but the systems are long gone so archived v= ideo is all we have to remember them by. When I was young, I remember seeing= disks and pamphlets for these services in the box when upgrading modems. The= y had serious brand recognition. By the time the Internet was becoming availa= ble to the public, I remember being more interested in getting a Compuserv ac= count lol. After getting our first Internet account in 1994, I was confused = because I didn=E2=80=99t know where the =E2=80=9Cfile areas=E2=80=9D, =E2=80= =9Cmessage areas=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cchat=E2=80=9D were after being so used= to BBS menus. Eventually I learned about FTP, USENET, and IRC. We even had = a =E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2=80=9D paper book where you could look up topic spe= cific FTP, USENET, and Gopher sites. =20 --===============3775429833796380398==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Mon Aug 1 14:53:58 2022 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:55:03 +0000 Message-ID: <1f3fce08d617401499223bc95e2364f3@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> In-Reply-To: <499D6A5A-97A9-4106-8D51-55C081863B6E@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2059607307887944833==" --===============2059607307887944833== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2=80=9D Do you recall what this was called? I remember (vaguely) something called the= "Yanoff List" which was an attempt at a paper catalog of websites. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: Ryan de Laplante via cctalk =20 Sent: Monday, August 1, 2022 9:26 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Ryan de Laplante Subject: [cctalk] BBS memorabilia Over the years I have been collecting BBS related memorabilia such as Night O= wl shareware CDs, Boardwatch magazine, BBS magazine, books, manuals, original= disks, etc. Does anyone have any BBS memorabilia they might be willing to s= ell to me? I=E2=80=99m particularly interested in PCBoard box/disks/manuals= . I know the software can be downloaded from the Internet.. I=E2=80=99m inte= rested in the original box set. I=E2=80=99m also interested in CRS Online pa= mphlets, receipts, catalogues, etc. =20 Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv, Delphi, G= ENie, AOL? I've collected disks, but the systems are long gone so archived v= ideo is all we have to remember them by. When I was young, I remember seeing= disks and pamphlets for these services in the box when upgrading modems. The= y had serious brand recognition. By the time the Internet was becoming availa= ble to the public, I remember being more interested in getting a Compuserv ac= count lol. After getting our first Internet account in 1994, I was confused = because I didn=E2=80=99t know where the =E2=80=9Cfile areas=E2=80=9D, =E2=80= =9Cmessage areas=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cchat=E2=80=9D were after being so used= to BBS menus. Eventually I learned about FTP, USENET, and IRC. We even had = a =E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2=80=9D paper book where you could look up topic spe= cific FTP, USENET, and Gopher sites. =20 --===============2059607307887944833==-- From ethan@757.org Mon Aug 1 15:00:46 2022 From: Ethan O'Toole To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 11:00:39 -0400 Message-ID: <2cca7583-ba26-31c1-9962-edd04c93c8e2@757.org> In-Reply-To: <499D6A5A-97A9-4106-8D51-55C081863B6E@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3940113842556596627==" --===============3940113842556596627== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv,=20 > Delphi, GENie, AOL? I've collected disks, but the systems are long gone=20 > so archived video is all we have to remember them by. When I was young,=20 > I remember seeing disks and pamphlets for these services in the box when=20 > upgrading modems. They had serious brand recognition. By the time the=20 > Internet was becoming available to the public, I remember being more=20 > interested in getting a Compuserv account lol. After getting our first=20 > Internet account in 1994, I was confused because I didn=E2=80=99t know wher= e the=20 > =E2=80=9Cfile areas=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cmessage areas=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C= chat=E2=80=9D were after being so used to BBS=20 > menus. Eventually I learned about FTP, USENET, and IRC. We even had a=20 > =E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2=80=9D paper book where you could look up topic spe= cific FTP,=20 > USENET, and Gopher sites. Just a heads up in case you aren't familiar, there is a project out there=20 where someone was pulling data from Prodigy cache directories (from=20 installed software that was used, on old computers.) They were working to=20 re-create Prodigy. Would be cool if someone re-created the others as well. - Ethan O'Toole --===============3940113842556596627==-- From cclist@sydex.com Mon Aug 1 15:49:47 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 08:49:37 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <499D6A5A-97A9-4106-8D51-55C081863B6E@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2330475787850500567==" --===============2330475787850500567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/1/22 06:26, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: > Over the years I have been collecting BBS related memorabilia such as Night= Owl shareware CDs, Boardwatch magazine, BBS magazine, books, manuals, origin= al disks, etc. Does anyone have any BBS memorabilia they might be willing to= sell to me? I=E2=80=99m particularly interested in PCBoard box/disks/manua= ls. I know the software can be downloaded from the Internet.. I=E2=80=99m in= terested in the original box set. I=E2=80=99m also interested in CRS Online = pamphlets, receipts, catalogues, etc. =20 >=20 > Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv, Delphi,= GENie, AOL? I've collected disks, but the systems are long gone so archived= video is all we have to remember them by. When I was young, I remember seei= ng disks and pamphlets for these services in the box when upgrading modems. T= hey had serious brand recognition. By the time the Internet was becoming avai= lable to the public, I remember being more interested in getting a Compuserv = account lol. After getting our first Internet account in 1994, I was confuse= d because I didn=E2=80=99t know where the =E2=80=9Cfile areas=E2=80=9D, =E2= =80=9Cmessage areas=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cchat=E2=80=9D were after being so u= sed to BBS menus. Eventually I learned about FTP, USENET, and IRC. We even h= ad a =E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2=80=9D paper book where you could look up topic = specific FTP, USENET, and Gopher sites. =20 >=20 I have a couple of the more obscure BBS packages, such as Auntie--are you interested in the disks for those? --Chuck --===============2330475787850500567==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Mon Aug 1 15:54:53 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 16:38:11 +0100 Message-ID: <01SG9FH8U0C88X1VTH@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6052958081274281547==" --===============6052958081274281547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > For an extra $1 now you can get integrated WiFi (and Bluetooth but > there isn't any BT software support yet) in the form of the $5 Pi > Pico W, so that's one route to talking to an IP network for IoT or > something like this. > > A neat thing about the Pico is that you can do hard real-time > interface protocols using its PIO (Programmable I/O) channels and DMA > and still implement the whole thing in MicroPython. > You had me all enthusiastic there until I got to the word "MicroPython" :-( I'm going to stay with my patch panel! Regards, Peter Coghlan. --===============6052958081274281547==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Aug 1 16:25:54 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 10:25:39 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2cca7583-ba26-31c1-9962-edd04c93c8e2@757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0766808270024345452==" --===============0766808270024345452== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/1/22 9:00 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > Just a heads up in case you aren't familiar, there is a project out > there where someone was pulling data from Prodigy cache directories > (from installed software that was used, on old computers.) They were > working to re-create Prodigy. I'm friends with the person that started that effort. He's continued to make progress. I'll have to find out where he's publishing status. I know that there's a Discord channel for it. > Would be cool if someone re-created the others as well. Agreed. I've wanted to to emulate MCI Mail for questionable reasons. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============0766808270024345452==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Aug 1 16:25:59 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 12:25:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01SG9FH8U0C88X1VTH@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5214869630464128005==" --===============5214869630464128005== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 1, 2022, at 11:38 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> For an extra $1 now you can get integrated WiFi (and Bluetooth but >> there isn't any BT software support yet) in the form of the $5 Pi >> Pico W, so that's one route to talking to an IP network for IoT or >> something like this. >>=20 >> A neat thing about the Pico is that you can do hard real-time >> interface protocols using its PIO (Programmable I/O) channels and DMA >> and still implement the whole thing in MicroPython. >>=20 >=20 > You had me all enthusiastic there until I got to the word "MicroPython" :-( > I'm going to stay with my patch panel! MicroPython is an option. There's also a C API. I've used MicroPython for p= rototyping, and the C API for the finished project. Best of both worlds. paul --===============5214869630464128005==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Aug 1 19:15:51 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 12:15:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <499D6A5A-97A9-4106-8D51-55C081863B6E@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5708480704894641869==" --===============5708480704894641869== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 1 Aug 2022, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv, > Delphi, GENie, AOL? I've collected disks, but the systems are long gone > so archived video is all we have to remember them by. When I was young, > I remember seeing disks and pamphlets for these services in the box when > upgrading modems. They had serious brand recognition. By the time the > Internet was becoming available to the public, I remember being more > interested in getting a Compuserv account lol. After getting our first > Internet account in 1994, I was confused because I didn’t know where > the “file areas”, “message areas” and “chat” were after > being so used to BBS menus. Eventually I learned about FTP, USENET, and > IRC. We even had a “yellow pages” paper book where you could look > up topic specific FTP, USENET, and Gopher sites. In 1995, there were two paperback books that purported to be "Internet Yellow Pages". (New Riders and McGraw Hill) No resemblance at all to the real TPC ("The Phone Company") Yellow Pages, which were the primary business advertising medium. Instead, the books were compilations of amateurish blurbs by the authors about sites that they were excited about. Yes, in the 1970s and 1980s, I had listings, and sometimes ads, for my businesses in the Yellow Pages. In those days, people would believe that a business didn't exist if it wasn't listed in the Yellow Pages. ("TPC" was the revelation about The Phone Company in James Coburn's "The President's Analyst") --===============5708480704894641869==-- From romietoo9ibi@xx.vu Mon Aug 1 20:06:27 2022 From: Alexander Huemer To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Searching for software for Tektronix 4970 Cluster Controller Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 19:59:36 +0000 Message-ID: <20220801195936.k2phbi32co6vhj65@ghost.xx.vu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8299407986024680540==" --===============8299407986024680540== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi The Tektronix 4970 does something similar to an IBM 3174 or 3708. It hooks up terminals to an IBM mainframe, in this case Tektronix=20 graphics terminals, see [1], p.36ff. Is anybody here in possession of the software that runs on it? -Alex [1] http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/tekniques/vol7/Tekniques_Vol_7_No_03.p= df --===============8299407986024680540==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Mon Aug 1 21:46:02 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 15:29:07 -0500 Message-ID: <5e5ba80b-dd52-c486-a872-5f2b5901dc38@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5341929919090801898==" --===============5341929919090801898== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You might want to try contacting Ward Christensen.=C2=A0 He is the creator of= =20 the original CBBS in Chicago along with Randy Suess. Ward's linked in is:=C2=A0 https://www.linkedin.com/in/wardchristensen. On 8/1/2022 2:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 1 Aug 2022, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: >> Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv,=20 >> Delphi, GENie, AOL?=C2=A0 I've collected disks, but the systems are long=20 >> gone so archived video is all we have to remember them by.=C2=A0 When I=20 >> was young, I remember seeing disks and pamphlets for these services=20 >> in the box when upgrading modems. They had serious brand recognition.=20 >> By the time the Internet was becoming available to the public, I=20 >> remember being more interested in getting a Compuserv account lol.=C2=A0=20 >> After getting our first Internet account in 1994, I was confused=20 >> because I didn=E2=80=99t know where the =E2=80=9Cfile areas=E2=80=9D, =E2= =80=9Cmessage areas=E2=80=9D and=20 >> =E2=80=9Cchat=E2=80=9D were after being so used to BBS menus. Eventually I= learned=20 >> about FTP, USENET, and IRC.=C2=A0 We even had a =E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2= =80=9D paper book=20 >> where you could look up topic specific FTP, USENET, and Gopher sites. > > In 1995, there were two paperback books that purported to be "Internet=20 > Yellow Pages".=C2=A0 (New Riders and McGraw Hill) > No resemblance at all to the real TPC ("The Phone Company") Yellow=20 > Pages, which were the primary business advertising medium. > Instead, the books were compilations of amateurish blurbs by the=20 > authors about sites that they were excited about. > > Yes, in the 1970s and 1980s, I had listings, and sometimes ads, for my=20 > businesses in the Yellow Pages.=C2=A0 In those days, people would believe=20 > that a business didn't exist if it wasn't listed in the Yellow Pages.=C2=A0= =20 > ("TPC" was the revelation about The Phone Company in James Coburn's=20 > "The President's Analyst") --===============5341929919090801898==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Aug 2 00:22:04 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia (fwd) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:21:58 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1746604233441689049==" --===============1746604233441689049== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The greatest ever video about pre-WWW internet was "Hyperland". a 1991 BBC documentary by Douglas Adams and Ted Nelson, and also starring Tom= =20 Baker. A few years BEFORE WWW, it predicted the future of the internet. https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland If you want subtitles/captions, 5 years ago, I created an .SRT (camptions fil= e=20 of it! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=3Ddrive= _web (400MB video with subtitles burned in) .SRT file: http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt --===============1746604233441689049==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Tue Aug 2 01:40:09 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia (fwd) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:39:55 -0400 Message-ID: <0E5CF9BE-F364-4CF5-95FE-8A9E4217DA82@ryandelaplante.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1887144887821457186==" --===============1887144887821457186== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 1, 2022, at 8:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > The greatest ever video about pre-WWW internet was "Hyperland". > a 1991 BBC documentary by Douglas Adams and Ted Nelson, and also starring T= om Baker. > A few years BEFORE WWW, it predicted the future of the internet. >=20 > https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland >=20 >=20 > If you want subtitles/captions, 5 years ago, I created an .SRT (camptions f= ile of it! >=20 > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=3Ddri= ve_web > (400MB video with subtitles burned in) > .SRT file: > http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt >=20 Wow great find, thank you! --===============1887144887821457186==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Tue Aug 2 01:45:50 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia (fwd) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 20:45:46 -0500 Message-ID: <872842427.2377547.1659404746897@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <0E5CF9BE-F364-4CF5-95FE-8A9E4217DA82@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9173460836085667337==" --===============9173460836085667337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently there was a BBS magazine. Just happened across this. https://archive.org/details/bbsmagazine Will You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way. Marvin Minsky --===============9173460836085667337==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Tue Aug 2 01:58:35 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:58:20 -0400 Message-ID: <320764C4-326E-45F9-9C29-12CEDB50D9D5@ryandelaplante.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5301145484774285612==" --===============5301145484774285612== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 1, 2022, at 11:49 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 8/1/22 06:26, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: >> Over the years I have been collecting BBS related memorabilia such as Nigh= t Owl shareware CDs, Boardwatch magazine, BBS magazine, books, manuals, origi= nal disks, etc. Does anyone have any BBS memorabilia they might be willing t= o sell to me? I=E2=80=99m particularly interested in PCBoard box/disks/manu= als. I know the software can be downloaded from the Internet.. I=E2=80=99m i= nterested in the original box set. I=E2=80=99m also interested in CRS Online= pamphlets, receipts, catalogues, etc. =20 >>=20 >> Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv, Delphi= , GENie, AOL? I've collected disks, but the systems are long gone so archive= d video is all we have to remember them by. When I was young, I remember see= ing disks and pamphlets for these services in the box when upgrading modems. = They had serious brand recognition. By the time the Internet was becoming ava= ilable to the public, I remember being more interested in getting a Compuserv= account lol. After getting our first Internet account in 1994, I was confus= ed because I didn=E2=80=99t know where the =E2=80=9Cfile areas=E2=80=9D, =E2= =80=9Cmessage areas=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cchat=E2=80=9D were after being so u= sed to BBS menus. Eventually I learned about FTP, USENET, and IRC. We even h= ad a =E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2=80=9D paper book where you could look up topic = specific FTP, USENET, and Gopher sites. =20 >>=20 > I have a couple of the more obscure BBS packages, such as Auntie--are > you interested in the disks for those? >=20 > =E2=80=94Chuck Thank you Chuck. You=E2=80=99re right, I=E2=80=99ve never heard of Auntie. = Thanks for letting me know about it, but I=E2=80=99m mainly interested in t= he more mainstream ones. I had no idea how many BBS software packages existe= d until looking at Jason Scott=E2=80=99s list: http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/ Unbelievable! The ones that I can remember being used locally were Remote A= ccess, RBBS, Renegade, Telegard, PCBoard, Maximus, Wildcat, Worldgroup, Illus= ion, MajorBBS, maybe Mystic BBS. I did all of my BBSing in the 1990s using = IBM PC / DOS / Windows / OS2 and ran a Maximus BBS. I never used Commodore= or Apple BBSes and wasn=E2=80=99t aware of any in my local calling area. Act= ually I remember the librarian at school had a B&W Macintosh and showed me an= Apple BBS for schools (I think). If I remember correctly it was called Glob= al Village. The terminal software I used to use was QuickLink Fax III, Procomm Plus 2.x f= or Windows, TELIX then later Hyper Terminal. TELIX was my favourite because = it was full screen. SyncTerm is the modern day equivalent, but it=E2=80= =99s not the same experience on massive wide screen monitors. To get the prop= er experience I think you need to be using a 15=E2=80=9D or smaller curved CR= T in a full screen DOS window. =20 Ryan --===============5301145484774285612==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 02:05:23 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 02:05:18 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <320764C4-326E-45F9-9C29-12CEDB50D9D5@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5308497851571111455==" --===============5308497851571111455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The computer shoppers in the =E2=80=9880s and 90=E2=80=99s were full of BBS l= istings. Might look there. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2022, at 18:58, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On Aug 1, 2022, at 11:49 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On 8/1/22 06:26, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: >>> Over the years I have been collecting BBS related memorabilia such as Nig= ht Owl shareware CDs, Boardwatch magazine, BBS magazine, books, manuals, orig= inal disks, etc. Does anyone have any BBS memorabilia they might be willing = to sell to me? I=E2=80=99m particularly interested in PCBoard box/disks/man= uals. I know the software can be downloaded from the Internet.. I=E2=80=99m = interested in the original box set. I=E2=80=99m also interested in CRS Onlin= e pamphlets, receipts, catalogues, etc. =20 >>>=20 >>> Has anyone ever seen promotional videos showing Prodigy, Compuserv, Delph= i, GENie, AOL? I've collected disks, but the systems are long gone so archiv= ed video is all we have to remember them by. When I was young, I remember se= eing disks and pamphlets for these services in the box when upgrading modems.= They had serious brand recognition. By the time the Internet was becoming av= ailable to the public, I remember being more interested in getting a Compuser= v account lol. After getting our first Internet account in 1994, I was confu= sed because I didn=E2=80=99t know where the =E2=80=9Cfile areas=E2=80=9D, =E2= =80=9Cmessage areas=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cchat=E2=80=9D were after being so u= sed to BBS menus. Eventually I learned about FTP, USENET, and IRC. We even h= ad a =E2=80=9Cyellow pages=E2=80=9D paper book where you could look up topic = specific FTP, USENET, and Gopher sites. =20 >>>=20 >> I have a couple of the more obscure BBS packages, such as Auntie--are >> you interested in the disks for those? >>=20 >> =E2=80=94Chuck >=20 > Thank you Chuck. You=E2=80=99re right, I=E2=80=99ve never heard of Auntie= . Thanks for letting me know about it, but I=E2=80=99m mainly interested in= the more mainstream ones. I had no idea how many BBS software packages exis= ted until looking at Jason Scott=E2=80=99s list: >=20 > http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/ >=20 > Unbelievable! The ones that I can remember being used locally were Remote= Access, RBBS, Renegade, Telegard, PCBoard, Maximus, Wildcat, Worldgroup, Ill= usion, MajorBBS, maybe Mystic BBS. I did all of my BBSing in the 1990s usin= g IBM PC / DOS / Windows / OS2 and ran a Maximus BBS. I never used Commodo= re or Apple BBSes and wasn=E2=80=99t aware of any in my local calling area. A= ctually I remember the librarian at school had a B&W Macintosh and showed me = an Apple BBS for schools (I think). If I remember correctly it was called Gl= obal Village. >=20 > The terminal software I used to use was QuickLink Fax III, Procomm Plus 2.x= for Windows, TELIX then later Hyper Terminal. TELIX was my favourite becaus= e it was full screen. SyncTerm is the modern day equivalent, but it=E2=80= =99s not the same experience on massive wide screen monitors. To get the prop= er experience I think you need to be using a 15=E2=80=9D or smaller curved CR= T in a full screen DOS window. =20 >=20 >=20 > Ryan >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============5308497851571111455==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Tue Aug 2 02:06:17 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:06:11 -0500 Message-ID: <400516565.2378781.1659405971660@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <320764C4-326E-45F9-9C29-12CEDB50D9D5@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4918368557492620376==" --===============4918368557492620376== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In case you aren't aware of it, there was a bbs magazine. Just ran across th= is: https://archive.org/details/bbsmagazine Will You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way. Marvin Minsky --===============4918368557492620376==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Aug 2 02:06:32 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia (fwd) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 19:06:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0E5CF9BE-F364-4CF5-95FE-8A9E4217DA82@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1455553370611194930==" --===============1455553370611194930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> The greatest ever video about pre-WWW internet was "Hyperland". >> a 1991 BBC documentary by Douglas Adams and Ted Nelson, and also starring = Tom Baker. >> A few years BEFORE WWW, it predicted the future of the internet. >> https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland >> If you want subtitles/captions, 5 years ago, I created an .SRT (captions f= ile) of it! >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=3Ddr= ive_web >> (400MB video with subtitles burned in) >> .SRT file: >> http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt On Mon, 1 Aug 2022, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: > Wow great find, thank you! In 1991, Ted offered to set aside a studio quality tape of it for me. But, we didn't see each other again for almost a decade, and then he=20 could no longer find a good copy. So, I've had to make do with off-air copies that you can download from=20 the web. Five years ago, with the help of a friend (my hearing had gone from mildly=20 Hard of Hearing to functionally deaf), I made a captions file for it. Neither of us being British, we had some struggles with some words and=20 phrases, such as "ice lolly" ("popsicle" in USA). And, of course, I welcome bug reports. Let me know if you find any errors=20 in the captions. AND/OR, if anybody can ever find a GOOD copy of it! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1455553370611194930==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Aug 2 02:20:06 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 19:19:45 -0700 Message-ID: <921dc273-cf9a-98d3-da4c-8d27c377666c@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: <320764C4-326E-45F9-9C29-12CEDB50D9D5@ryandelaplante.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7621369887299383821==" --===============7621369887299383821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/1/22 18:58, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: > Thank you Chuck. You=E2=80=99re right, I=E2=80=99ve never heard of Auntie= . Thanks for letting me know about it, but I=E2=80=99m mainly interested in= the more mainstream ones. =20 Well, it depends, Auntie was the software for ATT-PAC as well as Walnut Creek BBS. We used it at Sydex because we could tailor the operation of various commands, as well as run it in multiuser mode on Win NT. BBS for the 510 area code. http://bbslist.textfiles.com/510/oldschool.html Neither of the two BBS mentioned were small operations. If, on the other hand, you were thinking about game-oriented BBS, then Auntie is probably not it. I went through a pile BBS software before I settle on Auntie. --Chuck --===============7621369887299383821==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue Aug 2 02:21:13 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: BBS memorabilia (fwd) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 02:21:02 +0000 Message-ID: <113364203.2894510.1659406862956@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2358878160999129873==" --===============2358878160999129873== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok I know=C2=A0 what I am watching=C2=A0 tonight! Thanks!=C2=A0 Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 5:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: The greatest ever video about pre-WWW internet was "Hyperland". a 1991 BBC documentary by Douglas Adams and Ted Nelson, and also starring Tom= =20 Baker. A few years BEFORE WWW, it predicted the future of the internet. https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland If you want subtitles/captions, 5 years ago, I created an .SRT (camptions fil= e=20 of it! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=3Ddrive= _web (400MB video with subtitles burned in) .SRT file: http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt =20 --===============2358878160999129873==-- From lproven@gmail.com Tue Aug 2 10:46:39 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:39:21 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8076078102699633630==" --===============8076078102699633630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-DECnet-2022-Removal https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220731190646.97039-1-stephen(a)networkplumber.= org/ --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============8076078102699633630==-- From g4ugm@outlook.com Tue Aug 2 11:48:45 2022 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 11:48:41 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004b01d8a4a1$77f90cd0$67eb2670$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1480214252649387063==" --===============1480214252649387063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali via cctalk > Sent: 31 July 2022 06:51 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Cc: Ali > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port >=20 > > I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this > > nicely. > > >=20 > Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi= with a > built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus configura= tion. > There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the serial > console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible by > Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. >=20 > -Ali Ali, Many of the "server" devices work both ways. So you can configure the ports t= o be "host/server" or "terminal" ports. I think for example this https://www.ebay.com/itm/402706717955 will let you have both types of ports. It=E2=80=99s a bit modern and complex = but seems to fit the bill.. Dave=20 --===============1480214252649387063==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Tue Aug 2 13:46:28 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 08:25:11 -0500 Message-ID: <6aecc18b-5424-6729-af2b-7556d9ea9327@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLO2P265MB4840DAD50C9C7AFF7C3FF411F09D9=40LO2P265MB?= =?utf-8?q?4840=2EGBRP265=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3540751969401872184==" --===============3540751969401872184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One method to do what you want would be to do the following: 1.=C2=A0 Connect a TTL to RS-232 Converter to the serial port on the Raspberr= y Pi https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Compact-RS232-Converter-Female/dp/B00OPTOKI0 2. Enable the serial console on the Raspberry Pi. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Log-in to your Pi using the default username |pi| a= nd password=20 |raspberry|*. *Then**issue the following command: *sudo nano /boot/config.txt* =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This will launch the nano text editor with sufficient pri= vileges to=20 modify the file. Then use the arrow keys to navigate to the end of the=20 file and add the following line: *enable_uart=3D1* =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 And that=E2=80=99s it! The next time you reboot your Rasp= berry Pi you=E2=80=99ll be=20 ready to move on to the task of actually attaching that funky USB serial=20 cable. 3.=C2=A0 Connect a serial to ethernet adapter on each remote system. https://www.amazon.com/CERRXIAN-Ethernet-Serial-Device-Converter/dp/B087J9F6L= F/ref=3Dsr_1_4?crid=3D1Z8M6ZR7Z1QRV&keywords=3Drs-232+to+ethernet&qid=3D16594= 46389&s=3Delectronics&sprefix=3Drs-232+to+ethernet%2Celectronics%2C92&sr=3D1-4 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Keep track of the ip addresses of the adapter= s. 4.=C2=A0 Login to the Raspberry Pi on the terminal 5.=C2=A0 Install telnet on the RPI *sudo apt install telnet *6.=C2=A0 telnet This will work with any Raspberry Pi, even the Pi Zero 2 W. Note:=C2=A0 Telnet will not do any terminal emulation or translation.=20 Configure your local terminal for the emulation you need or configure=20 the remote hosts to the terminal you are using. On 8/2/2022 6:48 AM, David Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ali via cctalk >> Sent: 31 July 2022 06:51 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Cc: Ali >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port >> >>> I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this >>> nicely. >>> >> Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry p= i with a >> built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus configur= ation. >> There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the seri= al >> console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible = by >> Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. >> >> -Ali > Ali, > Many of the "server" devices work both ways. So you can configure the ports= to be "host/server" or "terminal" ports. I think for example this > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/402706717955 > > will let you have both types of ports. It=E2=80=99s a bit modern and comple= x but seems to fit the bill.. > > Dave > --===============3540751969401872184==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Aug 2 15:22:50 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 11:22:33 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8323864837607477398==" --===============8323864837607477398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Multinet On Tue, Aug 2, 2022, 6:46 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-DECnet-2022-Removal > > > https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220731190646.97039-1-stephen(a)networkplumbe= r.org/ > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 > --===============8323864837607477398==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Aug 2 17:39:39 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Posts Blocked Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:39:42 -0700 Message-ID: <018301d8a696$d99f7180$8cde5480$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7858340403916616215==" --===============7858340403916616215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to the list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? -Ali --===============7858340403916616215==-- From bob@jfcl.com Tue Aug 2 18:02:29 2022 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:52:37 -0700 Message-ID: <010d01d8a698$a7411610$f5c34230$@com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0465279099080102409==" --===============0465279099080102409== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Bill Degnan wrote: >Multinet Are you suggesting running Multinet on VMS so it can talk to the TCP world? Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just V= MS. Bob --===============0465279099080102409==-- From g4ugm@outlook.com Tue Aug 2 18:35:13 2022 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Posts Blocked Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 18:35:04 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <018301d8a696$d99f7180$8cde5480$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6646748640119762606==" --===============6646748640119762606== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have had to switch from gmail to outlook. Gmail won't send because its on t= he SORBS list Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali via cctalk > Sent: 02 August 2022 18:40 > To: CCTalk Mailing List > Cc: Ali > Subject: [cctalk] Posts Blocked >=20 > Hello All, >=20 > Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to= the > list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? >=20 >=20 > -Ali >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============6646748640119762606==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Aug 2 18:36:19 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Posts Blocked Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 11:36:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <018301d8a696$d99f7180$8cde5480$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9102065895821198461==" --===============9102065895821198461== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello All, > Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to > the list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? I generally have no problems at all with the list. BUT, yesterday, when I posted about "Hyperland" (BBS ephemera thread), it didn't go through (silently, with no bounce message), and I had to send it again. First time that that has ever happened to me on this list. My apologies to anybody who got it twice. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============9102065895821198461==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Aug 2 18:38:48 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:38:28 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <010d01d8a698$a7411610$f5c34230$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2567328610130490171==" --===============2567328610130490171== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than > just VMS. Please elaborate. I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to be able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that doesn't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============2567328610130490171==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Aug 2 18:42:30 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 14:42:21 -0400 Message-ID: <1C41658F-D07B-4B8F-B52A-B9C2EA9D3C7A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0891092786720435094==" --===============0891092786720435094== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 2, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just = VMS. >=20 > Please elaborate. >=20 > I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to be = able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. >=20 > It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that does= n't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the fading DEC= net support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix and VMS, but not fo= r a number of other DEC operating systems that have no TCP option. Hm, I'm reminded that someone did a TCP add-on to RSTS, that would be interes= ting to examine. A tricky piece of work, given that RSTS was not at all desi= gned to be customer-extensible (unlike RSX and RT-11). Not even customer dev= ice drivers, let alone anything much harder, like a whole network stack. paul --===============0891092786720435094==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Aug 2 19:12:25 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 13:12:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1C41658F-D07B-4B8F-B52A-B9C2EA9D3C7A@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1486661188982882581==" --===============1486661188982882581== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/2/22 12:42 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the > fading DECnet support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix > and VMS, but not for a number of other DEC operating systems that > have no TCP option. Okay. I hadn't considered other DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP. How prevalent is the use of DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP? Could such use cases suffice with a non-current Linux kernel that still includes support for DECnet? I'm trying to understand how many installations are actually using DECnet in Linux / how big the potential problem is / will be. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1486661188982882581==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue Aug 2 19:27:12 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Posts Blocked Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 19:27:00 +0000 Message-ID: <1396546053.3090320.1659468420344@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4649765592781807141==" --===============4649765592781807141== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I watched it... thanks for link!=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 11:36 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello All, > Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to > the list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? I generally have no problems at all with the list. BUT, yesterday, when I posted about "Hyperland" (BBS ephemera thread), it=20 didn't go through (silently, with no bounce message), and I had to send=20 it again.=C2=A0 First time that that has ever happened to me on this list. My apologies to anybody who got it twice. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cisin(a)xe= nosoft.com =20 --===============4649765592781807141==-- From bob@jfcl.com Tue Aug 2 19:55:33 2022 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:56:00 -0700 Message-ID: <015701d8a6a9$e3d7e390$ab87aab0$@com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7709583671468853170==" --===============7709583671468853170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Grant Taylor >Okay. I hadn't considered other DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP. AFAIK, VMS was the only DEC operating system (well, excepting the Un*x deri= vatives) that supported TCP/IP. There were several third party TCP/IP implem= entations for VMS (e.g. Wollongong, CMU, Process Software, ...) and eventuall= y DEC came out with their own official implementation. Johnny Bilquist has a TCP suite for RSX, but that's a recent development an= d was never a DEC product. >I'm trying to understand how many installations are actually using=20 >DECnet in Linux / how big the potential problem is / will be. You mean now, today, for actual real work? I have no idea, but I doubt it'= s very many if any at all. There are some of us hobbyists out there though, = that still use DECnet. We even have a worldwide DECnet network tunneled over= the Internet, and it's useful for some of us to have DECnet on Linux. I hav= e such a machine here, with Ubuntu 16.04.7LTS and ESM, kernel 4.4.0-148. I w= ould have upgraded it, but getting some of the user mode DECnet programs to r= un on later releases is problematic. Not impossible, but tricky. Are you part of the kernel team? I'm not really suggesting that DECnet sup= port be kept, although there are a few of us who would appreciate it. Bob --===============7709583671468853170==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 19:56:17 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 19:56:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4323328861117725276==" --===============4323328861117725276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does dropping Decnet mean the the commercial versions like Redhat and any oth= ers that you pay support for will also lose Decnet? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 2, 2022, at 12:12, Grant Taylor via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 8/2/22 12:42 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the fading = DECnet support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix and VMS, but not= for a number of other DEC operating systems that have no TCP option. >=20 > Okay. I hadn't considered other DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP. >=20 > How prevalent is the use of DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP? >=20 > Could such use cases suffice with a non-current Linux kernel that still inc= ludes support for DECnet? >=20 > I'm trying to understand how many installations are actually using DECnet i= n Linux / how big the potential problem is / will be. >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Grant. . . . > unix || die --===============4323328861117725276==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 20:02:43 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 16:02:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3518848599568935161==" --===============3518848599568935161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/2/22 14:38, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Umm...  The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than >> just VMS. > > Please elaborate. > > I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to > be able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. > > It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that > doesn't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). As previously stated, I run DECNET on Linux in order to talk to my DEC systems. bill --===============3518848599568935161==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 20:04:44 2022 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 16:04:37 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1C41658F-D07B-4B8F-B52A-B9C2EA9D3C7A@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5888696993812513060==" --===============5888696993812513060== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/2/22 14:42, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Aug 2, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >>> Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just= VMS. >> >> Please elaborate. >> >> I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to be= able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. >> >> It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that doe= sn't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). >=20 > I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the fading D= ECnet support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix and VMS, but not = for a number of other DEC operating systems that have no TCP option. >=20 > Hm, I'm reminded that someone did a TCP add-on to RSTS, that would be inter= esting to examine. A tricky piece of work, given that RSTS was not at all de= signed to be customer-extensible (unlike RSX and RT-11). Not even customer d= evice drivers, let alone anything much harder, like a whole network stack. I know there is a (not generally available) TCP/IP for RSX but I never saw or even heard of one for RSTS. bill --===============5888696993812513060==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Aug 2 20:10:59 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 14:10:45 -0600 Message-ID: <231c047d-de66-72b8-cb49-cf3d0ac59947@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <015701d8a6a9$e3d7e390$ab87aab0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1198160315633190864==" --===============1198160315633190864== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/2/22 1:56 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > AFAIK, VMS was the only DEC operating system (well, excepting the > Un*x derivatives) that supported TCP/IP. There were several third > party TCP/IP implementations for VMS (e.g. Wollongong, CMU, Process > Software, ...) and eventually DEC came out with their own official > implementation. Isn't Tru64 a DEC product? Doesn't it support TCP/IP? I assume that it also supports DECnet. I naively assume similar about Ultrix. > Johnny Bilquist has a TCP suite for RSX, but that's a recent > development and was never a DEC product. :-) > You mean now, today, for actual real work? I have no idea, but I > doubt it's very many if any at all. Ya, that's what I was trying to figure out. > There are some of us hobbyists out there though, that still use DECnet. > We even have a worldwide DECnet network tunneled over the Internet, > and it's useful for some of us to have DECnet on Linux. Understood and agreed. > I have such a machine here, with Ubuntu 16.04.7LTS and ESM, kernel > 4.4.0-148. I would have upgraded it, but getting some of the > user mode DECnet programs to run on later releases is problematic. > Not impossible, but tricky. Please expound on what impact you would have if DECnet was removed from the /current/ mainline kernel? Would you stop using DECnet b/c it was removed from the kernel? Or would you continue to use DECnet on an older kernel that still includes support for it? I've recently run into this with some old Token Ring hardware that I was messing with. I did a recent install of a distro that was 15 years old and it worked perfectly for what I needed. > Are you part of the kernel team? Nope. I'm just some random person on the Internet that has opinions and / or questions that are hopefully on topic. > I'm not really suggesting that DECnet support be kept, although there > are a few of us who would appreciate it. I have oft wondered about using DECnet for a few different things. Likewise with OSI and IPX. But I do think that I would be perfectly content running things in UML w/ L2 network access and / or VMs running old versions that still support hardware. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1198160315633190864==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Aug 2 20:12:39 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 14:12:24 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181193FAC6D2621DD2BAB93E49D9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8519947767933561724==" --===============8519947767933561724== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/2/22 1:56 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Does dropping Decnet mean the the commercial versions like Redhat > and any others that you pay support for will also lose Decnet? I imagine that even commercially supported distributions will eventually loose DECnet support. -- I don't see how they can realistically avoid it. Red Hat is notorious for avoiding the bleeding edge and porting things across kernel versions. So I suspect that they would have support longer than something like Debian et al. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============8519947767933561724==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 20:37:56 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 20:37:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1654093607357907175==" --===============1654093607357907175== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting it just mea= ns testing it with new versions of Linux so not too much work is needed. If a= linux distro keeps it it adds value to that distro. So, in the future, Redha= t, for example, might be the only distro left supporting it so if you need De= cnet you=E2=80=99ll want Redhat. This Creates a niche market by default. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 2, 2022, at 13:12, Grant Taylor via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 8/2/22 1:56 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Does dropping Decnet mean the the commercial versions like Redhat and any = others that you pay support for will also lose Decnet? >=20 > I imagine that even commercially supported distributions will eventually lo= ose DECnet support. -- I don't see how they can realistically avoid it. >=20 > Red Hat is notorious for avoiding the bleeding edge and porting things acro= ss kernel versions. So I suspect that they would have support longer than so= mething like Debian et al. >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Grant. . . . > unix || die --===============1654093607357907175==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Aug 2 20:46:59 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 14:46:45 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218112B9D7A11C6C04135710E49D9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6771979937403664629==" --===============6771979937403664629== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/2/22 2:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting > it just means testing it with new versions of Linux so not too > much work is needed. If a linux distro keeps it it adds value to > that distro. Fair enough. I think the problem is going to manifest itself if ~> when the kernel changes so that it's no longer compatible with the old DECnet code and / or there is a security problem. The kernel is constantly moving. At some point the distance between the contemporary kernel and the DECnet code is too great and things fail. > So, in the future, Redhat, for example, might be the only distro > left supporting it so if you need Decnet you’ll want Redhat. This > Creates a niche market by default. I question if there is enough demand for it to be worth Red Hat's / etc's time and effort to do so. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============6771979937403664629==-- From bob@jfcl.com Tue Aug 2 21:04:02 2022 From: Robert Armstrong To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 14:04:29 -0700 Message-ID: <017a01d8a6b3$74ecc360$5ec64a20$@com> In-Reply-To: <231c047d-de66-72b8-cb49-cf3d0ac59947@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5565959357908358550==" --===============5565959357908358550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Grant Taylor wrote: >Isn't Tru64 a DEC product?=20 I did say, "Excepting the Un*x derivatives"... >Would you stop using DECnet b/c it was removed from the kernel? Well, I wouldn't be able to upgrade that machine anymore. That wouldn=E2= =80=99t be the end of the world, but eventually one of two things will happen= - either I'll want to run some software thing that doesn't work with an olde= r distro, or I'll need to upgrade the hardware and driver support for some pi= ece of hardware won't be available in the older distro. Then I'll just have = to quit using DECnet on Linux. I won't quit using DECnet, of course, as I have other systems which speak o= nly that. I just won't be able to talk to them from Linux anymore. Bob --===============5565959357908358550==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 21:05:24 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 21:05:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6364940999187954812==" --===============6364940999187954812== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It might not be worth it to redhat. I wonder how many govt entities are still using DEC machines and can=E2=80=99= t replace them easily.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 2, 2022, at 13:47, Grant Taylor via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 8/2/22 2:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting it just = means testing it with new versions of Linux so not too much work is needed. I= f a linux distro keeps it it adds value to that distro. >=20 > Fair enough. >=20 > I think the problem is going to manifest itself if ~> when the kernel chang= es so that it's no longer compatible with the old DECnet code and / or there = is a security problem. >=20 > The kernel is constantly moving. At some point the distance between the co= ntemporary kernel and the DECnet code is too great and things fail. >=20 >> So, in the future, Redhat, for example, might be the only distro left supp= orting it so if you need Decnet you=E2=80=99ll want Redhat. This Creates a ni= che market by default. >=20 > I question if there is enough demand for it to be worth Red Hat's / etc's t= ime and effort to do so. >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Grant. . . . > unix || die --===============6364940999187954812==-- From cmhanson@eschatologist.net Tue Aug 2 21:35:46 2022 From: Chris Hanson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 14:17:14 -0700 Message-ID: <54A5E790-F245-46C8-9D8E-E6BB26A4B0B3@eschatologist.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0713124495650220878==" --===============0713124495650220878== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It just sounds to me like the implementation should move to userspace. Why do= es it need to be in the kernel? -- Chris --===============0713124495650220878==-- From macro@orcam.me.uk Tue Aug 2 21:44:01 2022 From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 22:43:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB218112B9D7A11C6C04135710E49D9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8699358898990090243==" --===============8699358898990090243== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting it > just means testing it with new versions of Linux so not too much work is > needed. Someone has to do that, it doesn't happen automagically. And if not for: > It has been Orphaned in kernel since 2010. > And the documentation link on Sourceforge says it is abandoned there. I am sure this code would be kept. We have older stuff there in the Linux kernel (in terms of first appearance; I remember DECnet support being contributed and it was pretty late in the game). Step in as a maintainer and the decision might be revisited. > If a linux distro keeps it it adds value to that distro. So, in > the future, Redhat, for example, might be the only distro left > supporting it so if you need Decnet you’ll want Redhat. This Creates a > niche market by default. Again, someone has to be paid to maintain it. If a company sees business justification for that, it will. Maciej --===============8699358898990090243==-- From classiccmp@philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 3 00:07:27 2022 From: Philip Pemberton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Dysan 208-21 alignment disk - what is it for? Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 00:49:28 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2449353360705817089==" --===============2449353360705817089== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, Does anyone have the spec sheet for the Dysan 208-21 alignment disk, or know what drive it's intended to be used with? I've got the information sheet which comes with the disk, but it doesn't identify the tracks-per-inch or track count. It's a 5.25in double-sided disk; the info sheet says: FILE: 208-21 PAGE 001 Dysan 208-21 (Configuration #802030) Double Sided Alignment Diskette Track 0 - Full Revolution (both sides) Track 1 - Index Burst (both sides) Track 16 - Index, Azimuth and Catseye (both sides) Track 33 - Full Revolution (both sides) Track 34 - Index and Azimuth (both sides) Full Revolution - recording frequency is 125 kHz Index Burst - 50us in duration and occurs 200us after index. Recording frequency 125 kHz. Azimuth - Four bursts that depicts an azimuth of 12'. Each burst is 1 millisecond in duration with the first burst occurring 500us after index. The recording frequency is 125kHz. Catseye - recording frequency 62.5 kHz Sadly the part number doesn't appear on Accurite's old website (per archive.org), or the Dysan PDFs I've found on Bitsavers. About the only thing I've been able to figure out is that it's an Analog Alignment Disk. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp(a)philpem.me.uk https://www.philpem.me.uk/ --===============2449353360705817089==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Aug 3 02:46:33 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dysan 208-21 alignment disk - what is it for? Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 19:46:22 -0700 Message-ID: <84195801-aead-4ebb-9813-556ed5443c47@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7379642015893605462==" --===============7379642015893605462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 208-xx disks all seem to be 48tpi (208-40, 208-41, 208-10 (single-sided) They all do seem to include an index burst. Just a guess, mind you. --Chuck --===============7379642015893605462==-- From lproven@gmail.com Wed Aug 3 16:44:18 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 17:04:27 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181193FAC6D2621DD2BAB93E49D9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0462451224431664223==" --===============0462451224431664223== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2 Aug 2022 at 21:56, Wayne S via cctalk wro= te: > > Does dropping Decnet mean the the commercial versions like Redhat and any o= thers that you pay support for will also lose Decnet? When they eventually upgrade to that or later versions of the kernel: yes. --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============0462451224431664223==-- From organlists1@sonic.net Wed Aug 3 18:21:49 2022 From: "D. Resor" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Elan/Syncrotech Memory Card Explorer Demo v3.21 and paging Glen Slick Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 11:21:46 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3712909415186816579==" --===============3712909415186816579== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Syncrotech sent me the demo version of Elan Memory Card Explorer version 3.21 which is matched for use with the Elan P423 PCMCIA Card Reader/Writer and in the Windows XP environment. The demo version has 30 days use to try it in set-up mode, but only 5 "lives" in full function mode. To make it work again I may have to use a backed up version of my Registry, or re-install WinXP, mb drivers, etc. Previously with Ricoh's XP v1.01 incarnate memory block setting of (E8) E800-EBFF, the program would start-up and see the Linear Flash Card. Now with Elan's version 3.21 not only does that memory block not work but none of the other choices listed in Ricoh's manual which states: By default, MCE requires the exclusive use of a block of real mode memory at linear address d0000H to d3fffH. If MCERICOH - XP does not detect the flash memory card with the default memory block settings, this indicates that the default memory block is already in use. Try one of the following settings: (D0) D000-D3FF (default) (E0) E000-E3FF (D4) D400-D7FF (E4) E400-E7FF (D8) D800-DBFF (E8) E800-EBFF (DC) DC00-DFFF (EC) EC00-EFFF In the Elan MCE op guide which is from 1999 and doesn't completely cover up to v3.21 from 2005 it states: "wXX" XX=base memory address for card operations e.g. "wD8" will use D8000h as a base address. XX can be C0 to EF for most PCs. Default is D0. The 4K region from address chosen must be "free". Lastly in the txt file with the MCE v3.21 installation files it is stated: VERSION 3-13 * This function now works in the same way for all versions of Windows * This function should be called before any other (Except MCE_Customisations). It not only checks memory for use it registers the memory for exclusive use by our program. It also allows the library function to initialize ready for card memory accesses. * Failure to initialize successfully using this function will result in NT4 access violation messages during library function calls. * The MCE_CheckWindow function does 2 tasks -It registers the memory window with Windows. A handle to this memory window is saved in MCELIB for MCELIB use. -It tests the memory window allocated to check that it is unused. * Function MCE_ReleaseWindow() can be used to de-allocate the handle. (when multiple MCE_CheckWindow()s calls are made use MCE_ReleaseWindow() before the next MCE_CheckWindow()) * Function MCE_Restore() also deallocates this handle as part of the MCELIB closedown operations. Inputs: DWORD ----- Used to pass in the memory window address for the PCIC card controller to use. The value passed in will be used as the memory address in subsequent card operations. Pass in 00000000H for an automatically allocated memory window. The window it attempts to use is directly above the PC's system SDRAM. To maintain compatibility with earlier MCELIB versions the application software should pass in D0000H instead of 0H to this function call. Note that only 4000H increments should be used. Possible range from C0000H to EC000H or any free address above 100000H. A memory block of size 4000H is reserved with Windows and tested by the MCELIBfunction for suitability. Showing my absolute ignorance here, without a chart showing the blocks of memory I can try I'm lost. I have scoured Synchrotech's website, no answers there. I found the old Elan FAQ pages saved at the Wayback Machine but no answers there. Searching the "web" for memory address block settings in XP didn't seem to turn up what I was looking for either. Thanks for indulging me once again. Don Resor --===============3712909415186816579==-- From doc@vaxen.net Thu Aug 4 20:20:00 2022 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 15:12:47 -0500 Message-ID: <6c0032b2-df37-202f-cb40-2d7f000419ee@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3187210352330797284==" --===============3187210352330797284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/2/2022 2:12 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I'm trying to understand how many installations are actually using > DECnet in Linux / how big the potential problem is / will be. > This becomes an actual showstopper when the most recent hardware platform that will run the most recent Linux kernel to support DECNet becomes impossible to maintain. In other words you'll probably want to put your DECNet bridge system behind a more current firewall fairly soon, but DECNet in current Linux distributions will not stop working then it's dropped from future versions. No offense, people, but the sky is not falling. Doc --===============3187210352330797284==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Aug 4 21:08:09 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 15:07:47 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6c0032b2-df37-202f-cb40-2d7f000419ee@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5210312346782426943==" --===============5210312346782426943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/4/22 2:12 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > This becomes an actual showstopper when the most recent hardware > platform that will run the most recent Linux kernel to support DECNet > becomes impossible to maintain. I'm not convinced that the inability to boot the newest kernel that supports DECnet will be in and of itself a show stopper. I believe it will be possible to run said kernel as a user space process a la. User Mode Linux (arch=um) with a virtual NIC that is bridged to the external Ethernet NIC. There's still the possibility of running the older kernel in a VM even when it won't run native on the hardware. > In other words you'll probably want to put your DECNet bridge system > behind a more current firewall fairly soon, but DECNet in current > Linux distributions will not stop working then it's dropped from > future versions. I suspect that is and has been the case for a good while. ;-) > No offense, people, but the sky is not falling. Agreed. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============5210312346782426943==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 21:17:45 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 21:17:40 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4664526993019216852==" --===============4664526993019216852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since dropping DECNET is just a proposal and needs to be voted on, what=E2=80= =99s the chance the vote will pass? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 4, 2022, at 14:08, Grant Taylor via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 8/4/22 2:12 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >> This becomes an actual showstopper when the most recent hardware platform = that will run the most recent Linux kernel to support DECNet becomes impossib= le to maintain. >=20 > I'm not convinced that the inability to boot the newest kernel that support= s DECnet will be in and of itself a show stopper. >=20 > I believe it will be possible to run said kernel as a user space process a = la. User Mode Linux (arch=3Dum) with a virtual NIC that is bridged to the ext= ernal Ethernet NIC. >=20 > There's still the possibility of running the older kernel in a VM even when= it won't run native on the hardware. >=20 >> In other words you'll probably want to put your DECNet bridge system behin= d a more current firewall fairly soon, but DECNet in current Linux distributi= ons will not stop working then it's dropped from future versions. >=20 > I suspect that is and has been the case for a good while. ;-) >=20 >> No offense, people, but the sky is not falling. >=20 > Agreed. >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Grant. . . . > unix || die --===============4664526993019216852==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Aug 4 22:55:00 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 16:54:40 -0600 Message-ID: <2ea6c097-dcf0-85f3-d839-10ab370698b8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181D0B90AFABD8C09FC2FC5E49F9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7876023779275473524==" --===============7876023779275473524== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/4/22 3:17 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Since dropping DECNET is just a proposal and needs to be voted on, > what’s the chance the vote will pass? I have no idea. Though if it's being considered now, it will be considered again at some point in the future if it's unmaintained. If it ever becomes a blocker for other parts of the kernel, it's removal will be expedited. Much -- as I understand it -- how Token Ring was removed in the 4.x kernels. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============7876023779275473524==-- From matt@9track.net Thu Aug 4 23:26:11 2022 From: Matt Burke To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 00:25:59 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCY4PR1001MB2181D0B90AFABD8C09FC2FC5E49F9=40CY4PR10?= =?utf-8?q?01MB2181=2Enamprd10=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7000880466290755559==" --===============7000880466290755559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/08/2022 22:17, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Since dropping DECNET is just a proposal and needs to be voted on, what=E2= =80=99s the chance the vote will pass? If DECnet support gets removed then it's not a big deal, in fact it may actually be a good thing. The last time I tried the DECnet support in the latest 4.x kernel about a year ago it didn't work anyway. I developed a number of patches to fix it which I never got round to submitting. I don't know if anyone else fixed these problems in the mean time. I suspect not. It probably wouldn't take much effort to rework this as an out-of-tree module which could then continue to be maintained separately from the kernel. It could also be combined with dnprogs into a single repository. I did something similar with the long dead Linux SNA support: https://github.com/9track/linux-sna/tree/next This was originally a set of patches for 2.2.x kernels and I have reworked it as an out-of-tree module for 4.x kernels. It's not currently usable as there's still lots to do but you get the idea. It does build and load and it was a good learning exercise. Matt --===============7000880466290755559==-- From doc@vaxen.net Fri Aug 5 06:31:19 2022 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 01:31:10 -0500 Message-ID: <84c9f761-2b2c-8d70-f243-780ef1612f4f@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1713378087168206159==" --===============1713378087168206159== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/4/2022 4:07 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 8/4/22 2:12 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >> This becomes an actual showstopper when the most recent hardware >> platform that will run the most recent Linux kernel to support DECNet >> becomes impossible to maintain. > > I'm not convinced that the inability to boot the newest kernel that > supports DECnet will be in and of itself a show stopper. > > I believe it will be possible to run said kernel as a user space process > a la. User Mode Linux (arch=um) with a virtual NIC that is bridged to > the external Ethernet NIC. > > There's still the possibility of running the older kernel in a VM even > when it won't run native on the hardware. All very true. I was just whacking at the low hanging fruit... ;-) Doc --===============1713378087168206159==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Aug 5 14:42:28 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 08:42:12 -0600 Message-ID: <8b4abfb2-6b74-f6fb-6ad2-504ed8eadecc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <84c9f761-2b2c-8d70-f243-780ef1612f4f@vaxen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7387785044651730293==" --===============7387785044651730293== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/5/22 12:31 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > All very true.  I was just whacking at the low hanging fruit... Whack away. We're supposed to enjoy hobbies. Sometimes that means making fun of them. While you're at it, will you whack some of the fruit flies in my kitchen and moles in my yard? :-D -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============7387785044651730293==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Aug 5 14:48:15 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 10:48:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8b4abfb2-6b74-f6fb-6ad2-504ed8eadecc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3018596519632160902==" --===============3018596519632160902== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For fruit flies in kitchen put some apple vinegar in a cup, cover it with saran wrap, make a few small holes in it with a knife and push the wrap into the cup (not touching the vinegar) to make a dimple. Works perfectly. On 8/5/2022 10:42 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 8/5/22 12:31 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >> All very true.  I was just whacking at the low hanging fruit... > > Whack away. > > We're supposed to enjoy hobbies.  Sometimes that means making fun of them. > > While you're at it, will you whack some of the fruit flies in my kitchen > and moles in my yard?  :-D > > > --===============3018596519632160902==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Aug 5 20:24:57 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Fixing a TU58 Dectape II: Questions Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 16:24:51 -0400 Message-ID: <770b795c-5d7b-2498-4c7f-134aa7a0e208@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5779064328005933285==" --===============5779064328005933285== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some quick questions on fixing up a TU58: 1) Can I plug it straight into a pdp11/23+ CPU with a 10 pin ribbon cable? 2) Can I hook the 10 pin ribbon cable on it into a normal 11/23 or 11/73 bulkhead to get RS232 for hooking up to a PDT11? 3) Can the PDT11 handle anything faster than 2400 baud on the extension ports? Can it do faster speeds in one direction? 4) Is there any possible use for this thing :-) CZ --===============5779064328005933285==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Aug 5 21:39:23 2022 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Slightly off topic --Places to go in Huntsville Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 16:39:14 -0500 Message-ID: <2018302550.3259108.1659735554325@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2309666077787584696==" --===============2309666077787584696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Next week I will be in the Huntsville, Al, USA area for an entire day with no= commitments. Does anyone have recommendations on how to spend my day? I have= been to the space and rocket museum several times. Any computer museums or d= isplays, especially of space-related equipment? Any good surplus stores? All = suggestions welcome. Thanks, Will You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way. Marvin Minsky --===============2309666077787584696==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Fri Aug 5 21:50:26 2022 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fixing a TU58 Dectape II: Questions Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 16:42:07 -0500 Message-ID: <91a30fbe-0fd8-24fb-7e5c-78c13f1bef03@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <770b795c-5d7b-2498-4c7f-134aa7a0e208@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2238876496253396352==" --===============2238876496253396352== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >3) Can the PDT11 handle anything faster than 2400 baud on the extension >po= rts? Can it do faster speeds in one direction? I can't guarantee=20 that it can't go faster, but I've done a lot of testing, and haven't=20 been able to get it to work faster than 2400. Faster than that, and I=20 get lots of dropped characters. Still, even at 2400 baud, if you use a=20 TU58 emulator and the large disk DD patch, it can be a convenient way to=20 have a lot of files available on a PDT, without having to switch=20 diskettes. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants=20 lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============2238876496253396352==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Aug 6 01:49:29 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fixing a TU58 Dectape II: Questions Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 21:49:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <91a30fbe-0fd8-24fb-7e5c-78c13f1bef03@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5144414265317204009==" --===============5144414265317204009== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kind of makes sense: All of the serial ports go through the 8085 CPU interface thingie and my guess is that it can do the register emulations only so quickly. I have the RX02's on the big 11/83, but it would be nice to see if I can get this to work again (I remember using it like 35 years ago or so. Been awhile) I'll build up a quick 11/23+ system and see if anything works. I think I have RT11 on an RQDX3 type disk somewhere around here to test with... C (Did RSX11M+ support the TU58?) On 8/5/2022 5:42 PM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > >> 3) Can the PDT11 handle anything faster than 2400 baud on the >> extension  >ports? Can it do faster speeds in one direction? I can't >> guarantee > that it can't go faster, but I've done a lot of testing, and haven't > been able to get it to work faster than 2400. Faster than that, and I > get lots of dropped characters. Still, even at 2400 baud, if you use a > TU58 emulator and the large disk DD patch, it can be a convenient way to > have a lot of files available on a PDT, without having to switch > diskettes. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants > lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============5144414265317204009==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Sat Aug 6 15:18:07 2022 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP 11/24 Unibus Termination and Grant Cards Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 16:18:00 +0100 Message-ID: <000001d8a9a7$b78774d0$26965e70$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7194525773530093767==" --===============7194525773530093767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 11/24 System Technical Manual says that the terminator (M9302 or M9312) must be installed in the last slot (slot 9) of the backplane, and that all empty slots must have a grant card. What I am not clear on is what they mean by an "empty" slot. Specifically, if I have the CPU, the M7134 memory map and a memory board installed in slots 1-3 and then nothing else except the terminator in slot 9, does this mean I have to install grant cards in slots 4-8? My guess is that this isn't a requirement because the grant cards go in rows C and D while the terminator is rows A and B, but I am hoping someone can confirm this for me please? Thanks Rob --===============7194525773530093767==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Aug 6 15:26:12 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP 11/24 Unibus Termination and Grant Cards Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 11:26:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001d8a9a7$b78774d0$26965e70$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5912106335577880214==" --===============5912106335577880214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sort of. The grant cards pass NPG and DMA signals on SPC slots. It's important to remember that the old "knuckle buster" types of cards passed npg only and you had to cut the DMA jumper if you wanted to use a DMA card in that slot. Once you cut the DMA jumper you needed either a DMA card in there going forward or a 7273 style grant card. It's a requirement. Without NPG the processor won't respond because it's waiting for a SACK timeout reply from the terminator. Fun stuff. There are *so* many variants on Unibus it's not funny. C On 8/6/2022 11:18 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > The 11/24 System Technical Manual says that the terminator (M9302 or M9312) > must be installed in the last slot (slot 9) of the backplane, and that all > empty slots must have a grant card. What I am not clear on is what they mean > by an "empty" slot. Specifically, if I have the CPU, the M7134 memory map > and a memory board installed in slots 1-3 and then nothing else except the > terminator in slot 9, does this mean I have to install grant cards in slots > 4-8? > > > > My guess is that this isn't a requirement because the grant cards go in rows > C and D while the terminator is rows A and B, but I am hoping someone can > confirm this for me please? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > --===============5912106335577880214==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Sat Aug 6 15:46:23 2022 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Fixing a TU58 Dectape II: Questions Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 10:38:10 -0500 Message-ID: <21f865b6-0149-86fa-b1fa-27b37e9cabef@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4888247573085935025==" --===============4888247573085935025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   Yep, RSX11M and M+  support the TU58. Don't recall exactly what versions it first appeared in. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason(a)comcast.net --===============4888247573085935025==-- From shumaker@att.net Sat Aug 6 19:40:30 2022 From: s shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] designjet650C user manuals Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 12:40:21 -0700 Message-ID: <88bcf495-93eb-c046-5ca9-cdd2ab919065@att.net> In-Reply-To: <21f865b6-0149-86fa-b1fa-27b37e9cabef@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8592875523928424854==" --===============8592875523928424854== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have 2 original user manuals for the Designjet 650C titled "Setting up For Plotting" and "Using the Front Panel."  Seems a waste to just pitch without inquiring here.  Especially since since they don't seem to be readily available (and Bitsavers came up zip). Free to the first requestor Steve --===============8592875523928424854==-- From doc@vaxen.net Sat Aug 6 21:26:34 2022 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 16:26:26 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8906418241150961813==" --===============8906418241150961813== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/5/2022 9:48 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > For fruit flies in kitchen put some apple vinegar in a cup, cover it > with saran wrap, make a few small holes in it with a knife and push the > wrap into the cup (not touching the vinegar) to make a dimple. > > Works perfectly. We use 2 parts molasses to one part apple vinegar. You don't even need the saran wrap! Doc --===============8906418241150961813==-- From doc@vaxen.net Sat Aug 6 21:49:01 2022 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Slightly off topic --Places to go in Huntsville Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 16:48:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2018302550.3259108.1659735554325@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1351794047470647121==" --===============1351794047470647121== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/5/2022 4:39 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Next week I will be in the Huntsville, Al, USA area for an entire day with = no commitments. Does anyone have recommendations on how to spend my day? I ha= ve been to the space and rocket museum several times. Any computer museums or= displays, especially of space-related equipment? Any good surplus stores? Al= l suggestions welcome. Not knowing where you're from, it may be too familiar to be fun, but=20 Huntsville is in some of the most beautiful country in the US. It's at=20 the foot of the Appalachian/Smokey/Blue Ridge complex, and driving=20 northeast takes you out of the urban area PDQ. Pack a lunch, fill the=20 tank, go exploring. Doc --===============1351794047470647121==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 6 22:02:09 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 15:02:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6934108007405675860==" --===============6934108007405675860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> For fruit flies in kitchen put some apple vinegar in a cup, cover it with = >> saran wrap, make a few small holes in it with a knife and push the wrap=20 >> into the cup (not touching the vinegar) to make a dimple. >> Works perfectly. > We use 2 parts molasses to one part apple vinegar. You don't even need th= e=20 > saran wrap! People who have never actually tried doing it constantly claim that you=20 can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. --===============6934108007405675860==-- From dave@mitton.com Sun Aug 7 02:43:51 2022 From: Dave Mitton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VT220 North of Boston Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 22:33:46 -0400 Message-ID: <1659839627-942551@mid.hostedemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7569697668087156184==" --===============7569697668087156184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I picked up a VT220 passing by some clean out a while ago. Green phosphor, powers up and passes self test. The keyboard has 3 broken function row keys, keycaps. Free to pickup in North Andover. Shipping would be heavy and awkward with the CRT. Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows --===============7569697668087156184==-- From doc@vaxen.net Sun Aug 7 03:43:11 2022 From: Doc Shipley To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 22:43:01 -0500 Message-ID: <6cc90c62-16a5-80e6-9a66-33ff0ff861c1@vaxen.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4184317497645641338==" --===============4184317497645641338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/6/2022 5:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> For fruit flies in kitchen put some apple vinegar in a cup, cover it >>> with saran wrap, make a few small holes in it with a knife and push >>> the wrap into the cup (not touching the vinegar) to make a dimple. >>> Works perfectly. >>  We use 2 parts molasses to one part apple vinegar.  You don't even >> need the saran wrap! > > People who have never actually tried doing it constantly claim that you > can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Yeah... You need the vinegar. Even a fly won't trust anything that's too perfectly sweet. Doc --===============4184317497645641338==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sun Aug 7 09:45:33 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:39:13 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3950070408681238566==" --===============3950070408681238566== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 7 Aug 2022 at 00:02, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > People who have never actually tried doing it constantly claim that you > can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. :-D I see what you did there. Depends on the flies, of course. I discovered it by accident. I'm a Brit (and Irish now). We're not all that big on pickled cucumbers -- gherkins -- in the UK. A lot of people pick the slices out of their burgers and throw them out. (We pickle lots of other vegetables, especially onions and hard-boiled eggs, so "pickles" in British English is a generic term for anything pickled, and we very rarely use it because it's too vague. "The pickles aisle in the supermarket" maybe.) I love gherkins. Now I live in central Europe where they're big on gherkins and they eat loads of the things. So I do, with pleasure. You can buy *really big* jars of gherkins in ordinary supermarkets. I am hazy on US liquid units, as I never really knew the Imperial ones and yours are different anyway. So US ones make no sense to me, but maybe a gallon jar, or even 2 gallon jars? 8 pints is a UK gallon but I think 4 pints is a US gallon? Yeah well. I bought a ?2? ?gallon? jar of gherkins. It was too big to fit into the refrigerator. But they're pickled, right, so preserved, so I left them out. Mistake. You *do* attract fruit flies with vinegar. *Lots* of them. And their maggots can live in vinegar if they are at the surface and can breathe air. What happened to my gherkins was very _very_ nasty and I never bought such a big jar again. I might be able to keep a goldfish in the jar, though... Britain's a bit cold for fruit flies. Until I moved here they were _Drosophila melanogaster_ to me, a lab animal. The maggots' salivary glands have some of the biggest chromosomes in nature: you can see and count genes down an optical microscope. And a student can be taught how to anaesthetise and sort the sexes of fruit flies using an easy-to-use binocular microscope. https://teachersinstitute.yale.edu/curriculum/units/1996/5/96.05.01.x.html -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============3950070408681238566==-- From wh.sudbrink@verizon.net Mon Aug 8 17:38:09 2022 From: William Sudbrink To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Solid State Music SSM 2000 IC Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 13:37:18 -0400 Message-ID: <026401d8ab4d$8244d450$86ce7cf0$@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <026401d8ab4d$8244d450$86ce7cf0$.ref@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6639789908434090205==" --===============6639789908434090205== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this is a long shot, but I just acquired an SSM SB1 S-100 board with no chips. Everything on the board is easy to source but the SSM2000 chip. Does anyone have one for sale or know where to get one? Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --===============6639789908434090205==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Mon Aug 8 20:09:01 2022 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 19:55:47 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1659839627-942551@mid.hostedemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7049857763681085084==" --===============7049857763681085084== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit North Andover, MA or North Andover WI? 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: Dave Mitton via cctalk Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:34 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Dave Mitton Subject: [cctalk] VT220 North of Boston I picked up a VT220 passing by some clean out a while ago. Green phosphor, powers up and passes self test. The keyboard has 3 broken function row keys, keycaps. Free to pickup in North Andover. Shipping would be heavy and awkward with the CRT. Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows --===============7049857763681085084==-- From hagstrom@bu.edu Mon Aug 8 21:32:08 2022 From: "Hagstrom, Paul" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 21:32:02 +0000 Message-ID: <7C873D7D-5B9E-4707-8AA5-C0440866DD5F@bu.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8294944902814355951==" --===============8294944902814355951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like both of them are North of Boston, but one is like a 19 hour drive = away and one is a half hour drive away. I'd guess the half hour one. :D -Paul > On Aug 8, 2022, at 3:55 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >=20 > North Andover, MA or North Andover WI? >=20 > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/vid= eos >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Mitton via cctalk =20 > Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:34 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Dave Mitton > Subject: [cctalk] VT220 North of Boston >=20 > I picked up a VT220 passing by some clean out a while ago. > Green phosphor, powers up and passes self test. > The keyboard has 3 broken function row keys, keycaps. >=20 > Free to pickup in North Andover. >=20 > Shipping would be heavy and awkward with the CRT. >=20 > Dave. >=20 > Sent from Mail for Windows >=20 --===============8294944902814355951==-- From dan@ekoan.com Mon Aug 8 21:38:12 2022 From: Dan Veeneman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: designjet650C user manuals Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 16:41:07 -0400 Message-ID: <26977463-14f3-0c01-358a-647416190cde@ekoan.com> In-Reply-To: <88bcf495-93eb-c046-5ca9-cdd2ab919065@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2467130638586153233==" --===============2467130638586153233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Steve, I didn't see a follow-up to this, so if they're still available I'm happy to have them. Cheers, Dan On 8/6/2022 3:40 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: > I have 2 original user manuals for the Designjet 650C titled "Setting > up For Plotting" and "Using the Front Panel."  Seems a waste to just > pitch without inquiring here.  Especially since since they don't seem > to be readily available (and Bitsavers came up zip). > > Free to the first requestor > > Steve > > --===============2467130638586153233==-- From shumaker@att.net Mon Aug 8 21:44:52 2022 From: s shumaker To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: designjet650C user manuals Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 14:44:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <26977463-14f3-0c01-358a-647416190cde@ekoan.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0740297836904247547==" --===============0740297836904247547== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit they're yours.  I have two complete sets so one set is getting scanned at some point and I can send you the PDFs if you want them too.   Give me a shipping address and I'll get them out. Steve On 8/8/2022 1:41 PM, Dan Veeneman via cctalk wrote: > Hi Steve, > > I didn't see a follow-up to this, so if they're still available I'm > happy to have them. > > > Cheers, > > Dan > > > On 8/6/2022 3:40 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> I have 2 original user manuals for the Designjet 650C titled "Setting >> up For Plotting" and "Using the Front Panel."  Seems a waste to just >> pitch without inquiring here.  Especially since since they don't seem >> to be readily available (and Bitsavers came up zip). >> >> Free to the first requestor >> >> Steve >> >> --===============0740297836904247547==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Mon Aug 8 22:54:00 2022 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 22:33:35 +0000 Message-ID: <8f8349ddcc3c49b682bf69f8c961b416@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> In-Reply-To: <7C873D7D-5B9E-4707-8AA5-C0440866DD5F@bu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8952877104181824983==" --===============8952877104181824983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable haha 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: Hagstrom, Paul via cctalk =20 Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 5:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Hagstrom, Paul Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Looks like both of them are North of Boston, but one is like a 19 hour drive = away and one is a half hour drive away. I'd guess the half hour one. :D -Paul > On Aug 8, 2022, at 3:55 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >=20 > North Andover, MA or North Andover WI? >=20 > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/vid= eos >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Mitton via cctalk =20 > Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:34 PM > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Dave Mitton > Subject: [cctalk] VT220 North of Boston >=20 > I picked up a VT220 passing by some clean out a while ago. > Green phosphor, powers up and passes self test. > The keyboard has 3 broken function row keys, keycaps. >=20 > Free to pickup in North Andover. >=20 > Shipping would be heavy and awkward with the CRT. >=20 > Dave. >=20 > Sent from Mail for Windows >=20 --===============8952877104181824983==-- From cctalk@beyondthepale.ie Tue Aug 9 00:49:01 2022 From: Peter Coghlan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 01:21:35 +0100 Message-ID: <01SGJPV78HX48X1VTH@beyondthepale.ie> In-Reply-To: <7C873D7D-5B9E-4707-8AA5-C0440866DD5F@bu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1804346848360056843==" --===============1804346848360056843== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Boston GB, Boston USA or Boston somewhere else? Regards, Peter Coghlan (No Bostons anywhere near where I am anyway). > > Looks like both of them are North of Boston, but one is like a 19 hour drive > away and one is a half hour drive away. >=20 > I'd guess the half hour one. :D >=20 > -Paul > > > >> On Aug 8, 2022, at 3:55 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrot= e: >>=20 >> North Andover, MA or North Andover WI? >>=20 >> 73 Eugene W2HX >> Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/vi= deos >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dave Mitton via cctalk =20 >> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:34 PM >> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >> Cc: Dave Mitton >> Subject: [cctalk] VT220 North of Boston >>=20 >> I picked up a VT220 passing by some clean out a while ago. >> Green phosphor, powers up and passes self test. >> The keyboard has 3 broken function row keys, keycaps. >>=20 >> Free to pickup in North Andover. >>=20 >> Shipping would be heavy and awkward with the CRT. >>=20 >> Dave. >>=20 >> Sent from Mail for Windows >>=20 > --===============1804346848360056843==-- From lyokoboy0@gmail.com Tue Aug 9 04:44:15 2022 From: devin davison To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 16:21:00 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5820970676583105063==" --===============5820970676583105063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have many rl02 disk packs for my pdp 11/34 and 11/05. I have just been stacking them upright, but that has not been the safest or the most space efficient. Were any kinds of shelves made for these disk packs, perhaps similar to 9 track hanging tape racks? Trying to make things look more organized too. Hoping someone here has one and can share a pic, perhaps it is a design i can duplicate and make with some woodworking tools. Thanks, Devin D. --===============5820970676583105063==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Tue Aug 9 07:32:39 2022 From: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 08:32:31 +0100 Message-ID: <065a01d8abc2$2ff155a0$8fd400e0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <01SGJPV78HX48X1VTH@beyondthepale.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4305669528929724265==" --===============4305669528929724265== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Coghlan via cctalk > Sent: 09 August 2022 01:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Peter Coghlan > Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston > > Boston GB, Boston USA or Boston somewhere else? There are apparently 16 Bostons in the USA https://geotargit.com/citiespercountry.php?qcountry_code=US&qcity=Boston > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > (No Bostons anywhere near where I am anyway). I believe this is on the same isle, and the same state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston,_County_Clare I checked on Google Maps and there is a big sign saying welcome to Boston and little else, so I suspect a total lack of VT220's Dave G4UGM > > > > > Looks like both of them are North of Boston, but one is like a 19 hour > > drive away and one is a half hour drive away. > > > > I'd guess the half hour one. :D > > > > -Paul > > > > > > > >> On Aug 8, 2022, at 3:55 PM, W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> North Andover, MA or North Andover WI? > >> > >> 73 Eugene W2HX > >> Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: > >> https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Dave Mitton via cctalk > >> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:34 PM > >> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > >> Cc: Dave Mitton > >> Subject: [cctalk] VT220 North of Boston > >> > >> I picked up a VT220 passing by some clean out a while ago. > >> Green phosphor, powers up and passes self test. > >> The keyboard has 3 broken function row keys, keycaps. > >> > >> Free to pickup in North Andover. > >> > >> Shipping would be heavy and awkward with the CRT. > >> > >> Dave. > >> > >> Sent from Mail for Windows > >> > > --===============4305669528929724265==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Tue Aug 9 10:32:34 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 11:30:34 +0100 Message-ID: <144231e2.d662.1828227fa4e.Webtop.118@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: <065a01d8abc2$2ff155a0$8fd400e0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5470919233092273641==" --===============5470919233092273641== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You say that, but Galway is just a county over, and DEC had a large manufacturing base there. It's entirely possible for there to be a VT220 rotting in someones loft or barn in the vicinity of Boston, Ireland. I believe this is on the same isle, and the same state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston,_County_Clare I checked on Google Maps and there is a big sign saying welcome to Boston and little else, so I suspect a total lack of VT220's Dave G4UGM --===============5470919233092273641==-- From rice43@btinternet.com Tue Aug 9 10:45:23 2022 From: Joshua Rice To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 11:26:19 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0160014612993029419==" --===============0160014612993029419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have definitely seen pictures of them stacked edge-on. Since they were=20 essentially identical physically to the IBM 5440 disk packs (though=20 formatting would be wildly different), i imagine that might be a good=20 place to start in regards to existing designs. Alternatively, it should=20 be trivial to knock one together with some ply and dowels. https://collection.motat.nz/records/images/xlarge/35979/3a9db5d799ac1fe378340= 2cbe0e8a525fcd10503.jpg Cheers, Josh ------ Original Message ------ From: "devin davison via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"=20 Cc: "devin davison" Sent: Monday, 8 Aug, 2022 At 21:21 Subject: [cctalk] Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Hello, I have many rl02 disk packs for my pdp 11/34 and 11/05. I have just been stacking them upright, but that has not been the safest or the most=20 space efficient. Were any kinds of shelves made for these disk packs, perhaps similar to 9 track hanging tape racks? Trying to make things look more organized too. Hoping someone here has one and can share a pic, perhaps it is a design=20 i can duplicate and make with some woodworking tools. Thanks, Devin D. --===============0160014612993029419==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Aug 9 14:11:48 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 14:11:30 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8070944349115588786==" --===============8070944349115588786== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a friend who has one of the wire rack RL style pack racks, which looks= a lot like the one pictured. I've thought about having a wireform manufactur= er do a run of them. Aforementioned friend is willing to loan it for dimensio= nal capture/reproduction. Is this something people would be interested in? If= so I can set up a preorder information-gatherer and get interest numbers. Final form would probably be stainless wire to avoid having to chrome it. I'd= try very hard to have it made in the USA, but would consider offshore manufa= cturing if the price was too high (as is the case with circuit boards, for mo= st of our products/projects). Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, August 9th, 2022 at 06:26, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > > > I have definitely seen pictures of them stacked edge-on. Since they were > essentially identical physically to the IBM 5440 disk packs (though > formatting would be wildly different), i imagine that might be a good > place to start in regards to existing designs. Alternatively, it should > be trivial to knock one together with some ply and dowels. > > https://collection.motat.nz/records/images/xlarge/35979/3a9db5d799ac1fe3783= 402cbe0e8a525fcd10503.jpg > > > Cheers, Josh > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "devin davison via cctalk" cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > Cc: "devin davison" lyokoboy0(a)gmail.com > > Sent: Monday, 8 Aug, 2022 At 21:21 > Subject: [cctalk] Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design > Hello, > I have many rl02 disk packs for my pdp 11/34 and 11/05. I have just been > stacking them upright, but that has not been the safest or the most > space > efficient. Were any kinds of shelves made for these disk packs, perhaps > similar to 9 track hanging tape racks? Trying to make things look more > organized too. > Hoping someone here has one and can share a pic, perhaps it is a design > i > can duplicate and make with some woodworking tools. > Thanks, > Devin D. --===============8070944349115588786==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Tue Aug 9 14:19:26 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 10:19:12 -0400 Message-ID: <33F9D1B0-ADD4-4E7A-9018-8E1B8CADDBCC@ryandelaplante.ca> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Clf8Sr43teUdQkIEE5ZJyvlWqCTAmayZ2QOh87mSzybOuF1xbU?= =?utf-8?q?=5FYY-YhXcHvAlNQfL=5F36g35OW73lIlZks7hz0ugRbbKIiq8WGTtYyamOLSc=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5246888723850914708==" --===============5246888723850914708== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99d buy one or two > On Aug 9, 2022, at 10:11 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I have a friend who has one of the wire rack RL style pack racks, which loo= ks a lot like the one pictured. I've thought about having a wireform manufact= urer do a run of them. Aforementioned friend is willing to loan it for dimens= ional capture/reproduction. Is this something people would be interested in? = If so I can set up a preorder information-gatherer and get interest numbers. >=20 > Final form would probably be stainless wire to avoid having to chrome it. I= 'd try very hard to have it made in the USA, but would consider offshore manu= facturing if the price was too high (as is the case with circuit boards, for = most of our products/projects). >=20 > Thanks, > Jonathan >=20 > ------- Original Message ------- > On Tuesday, August 9th, 2022 at 06:26, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I have definitely seen pictures of them stacked edge-on. Since they were >> essentially identical physically to the IBM 5440 disk packs (though >> formatting would be wildly different), i imagine that might be a good >> place to start in regards to existing designs. Alternatively, it should >> be trivial to knock one together with some ply and dowels. >>=20 >> https://collection.motat.nz/records/images/xlarge/35979/3a9db5d799ac1fe378= 3402cbe0e8a525fcd10503.jpg >>=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, Josh >>=20 >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "devin davison via cctalk" cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >>=20 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org >>=20 >> Cc: "devin davison" lyokoboy0(a)gmail.com >>=20 >> Sent: Monday, 8 Aug, 2022 At 21:21 >> Subject: [cctalk] Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design >> Hello, >> I have many rl02 disk packs for my pdp 11/34 and 11/05. I have just been >> stacking them upright, but that has not been the safest or the most >> space >> efficient. Were any kinds of shelves made for these disk packs, perhaps >> similar to 9 track hanging tape racks? Trying to make things look more >> organized too. >> Hoping someone here has one and can share a pic, perhaps it is a design >> i >> can duplicate and make with some woodworking tools. >> Thanks, >> Devin D. --===============5246888723850914708==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 17:30:21 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 10:30:16 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <065a01d8abc2$2ff155a0$8fd400e0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8084044701905354832==" --===============8084044701905354832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Boston GB, Boston USA or Boston somewhere else? On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > There are apparently 16 Bostons in the USA > https://geotargit.com/citiespercountry.php?qcountry_code=US&qcity=Boston Perhaps you could differentiate by how far it is from Springfield. --===============8084044701905354832==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Tue Aug 9 17:37:36 2022 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 14:42:48 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Clf8Sr43teUdQkIEE5ZJyvlWqCTAmayZ2QOh87mSzybOuF1xbU?= =?utf-8?q?=5FYY-YhXcHvAlNQfL=5F36g35OW73lIlZks7hz0ugRbbKIiq8WGTtYyamOLSc=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8469893296237665947==" --===============8469893296237665947== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have one that looks slightly different than the one shown earlier https://w2hx.com/?prefix=3Dx/VintageComp/RL-Drives/ But I could use one or two more, so add me to the list of prospects. Were there larger cabinets designed to hold these? I can imagine some operati= ons having dozens of these disk packs and storing them in many linear feet of= desktop wire holders might not be an efficient way to store them.=20 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Chapman via cctalk =20 Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 10:12 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Jonathan Chapman Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design I have a friend who has one of the wire rack RL style pack racks, which looks= a lot like the one pictured. I've thought about having a wireform manufactur= er do a run of them. Aforementioned friend is willing to loan it for dimensio= nal capture/reproduction. Is this something people would be interested in? If= so I can set up a preorder information-gatherer and get interest numbers. Final form would probably be stainless wire to avoid having to chrome it. I'd= try very hard to have it made in the USA, but would consider offshore manufa= cturing if the price was too high (as is the case with circuit boards, for mo= st of our products/projects). Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, August 9th, 2022 at 06:26, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > > > I have definitely seen pictures of them stacked edge-on. Since they=20 > were essentially identical physically to the IBM 5440 disk packs=20 > (though formatting would be wildly different), i imagine that might be=20 > a good place to start in regards to existing designs. Alternatively,=20 > it should be trivial to knock one together with some ply and dowels. > > https://collection.motat.nz/records/images/xlarge/35979/3a9db5d799ac1f > e3783402cbe0e8a525fcd10503.jpg > > > Cheers, Josh > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "devin davison via cctalk" cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > > Cc: "devin davison" lyokoboy0(a)gmail.com > > Sent: Monday, 8 Aug, 2022 At 21:21 > Subject: [cctalk] Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Hello, I have many=20 > rl02 disk packs for my pdp 11/34 and 11/05. I have just been stacking=20 > them upright, but that has not been the safest or the most space=20 > efficient. Were any kinds of shelves made for these disk packs,=20 > perhaps similar to 9 track hanging tape racks? Trying to make things=20 > look more organized too. > Hoping someone here has one and can share a pic, perhaps it is a=20 > design i can duplicate and make with some woodworking tools. > Thanks, > Devin D. --===============8469893296237665947==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Tue Aug 9 17:38:20 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 09:14:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3113102141315815569==" --===============3113102141315815569== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know this is not exactly what you are talking about, but attached is a pict= ure of an RK05 with a storage unit for holding platters just above. I=E2=80= =99m still hoping one will show up on eBay someday. - obsol33t > On Aug 9, 2022, at 6:26 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > I have definitely seen pictures of them stacked edge-on. Since they were es= sentially identical physically to the IBM 5440 disk packs (though formatting = would be wildly different), i imagine that might be a good place to start in = regards to existing designs. Alternatively, it should be trivial to knock one= together with some ply and dowels. >=20 > https://collection.motat.nz/records/images/xlarge/35979/3a9db5d799ac1fe3783= 402cbe0e8a525fcd10503.jpg >=20 >=20 > Cheers, Josh >=20 > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "devin davison via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: "devin davison" > Sent: Monday, 8 Aug, 2022 At 21:21 > Subject: [cctalk] Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design > Hello, > I have many rl02 disk packs for my pdp 11/34 and 11/05. I have just been > stacking them upright, but that has not been the safest or the most space > efficient. Were any kinds of shelves made for these disk packs, perhaps > similar to 9 track hanging tape racks? Trying to make things look more > organized too. > Hoping someone here has one and can share a pic, perhaps it is a design i > can duplicate and make with some woodworking tools. > Thanks, > Devin D. >=20 --===============3113102141315815569==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Aug 9 17:57:06 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 13:56:45 -0400 Message-ID: <9B59170F-EB4F-4FF4-A5DD-36AC6B5AA3D0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3679832225517381215==" --===============3679832225517381215== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 9, 2022, at 9:14 AM, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I know this is not exactly what you are talking about, but attached is a pi= cture of an RK05 with a storage unit for holding platters just above. I=E2= =80=99m still hoping one will show up on eBay someday. I remember those from DEC RSTS development. BTW, attachments don't seem to w= ork. There were also DECtape holders suitable for rack-mounting as well. Bo= th were plastic; I guess they could be 3D printed except that the size may be= somewhat problematic. The wire racks come in several flavors differing in pitch; I've seen versions= for RK05, RL01, and magtape. All similar but the widths of the slots change= to match what's to be stored. paul --===============3679832225517381215==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 10 00:37:48 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Need 8mm or DLT-II tape? Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 17:37:38 -0700 Message-ID: <90a2302dadb07f629f6feab1829b75ca01337c7a.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <8c1f7ee2faa236d59b3c7bc0c67d98fb6f4cfcee.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8532211583212672138==" --===============8532211583212672138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have many 8mm tapes. A few are new. First comers get new ones. I have a few 8mm cleaning cassettes I have about a dozen DLT-II tapes. I have some Ultrium LTO fibre-channel SCSI drives that were removed from a tape-mounting robot several years ago. I never used them in my computers. The mounting bracket for one was modified to have an internal power supply -- which might be inadequate.  I have two Fujifilm 200/400 GB Ultrium 2 LTO tapes. I have a 5.25" floppy drive. Any of these are yours for the price of shipping; local pickup is OK too. Van Snyder van.snyder(a)sbcglobal.net La Crescenta, CA --===============8532211583212672138==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Wed Aug 10 13:08:21 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 13:08:18 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7634188227540778316==" --===============7634188227540778316== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 11:30 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Boston GB, Boston USA or Boston somewhere else? > > On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > > There are apparently 16 Bostons in the USA > > https://geotargit.com/citiespercountry.php?qcountry_code=3DUS&qcity=3DBos= ton > > Perhaps you could differentiate by how far it is from Springfield. > Or how far it is from a well known landmark, like the Simpson's Home? Warner --===============7634188227540778316==-- From me@larbob.org Wed Aug 10 15:25:35 2022 From: Larkin Nickle To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Merced hardware Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 11:18:44 -0400 Message-ID: <8A162ACE-3AC4-4623-9915-AFE499E2AFA9@larbob.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4045463180419412995==" --===============4045463180419412995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey all, I=E2=80=99m looking for an Itanium Merced machine, such as an HP rx4610, HP i= 2000, SGI 750, etc.=20 Please reach out if you have a machine you=E2=80=99d like to get rid of or ha= ve any leads! Thanks, Larkin --===============4045463180419412995==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Wed Aug 10 15:39:09 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VT220 North of Boston Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 08:38:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5492154441003411172==" --===============5492154441003411172== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>> Boston GB, Boston USA or Boston somewhere else? >>> There are apparently 16 Bostons in the USA >>> https://geotargit.com/citiespercountry.php?qcountry_code=US&qcity=Boston >> Perhaps you could differentiate by how far it is from Springfield. On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, Warner Losh wrote: > Or how far it is from a well known landmark, like the Simpson's Home? Unless the VT220 is on Evergreen Terrace, "The Tire Fire" might be a more recognizable landmark. --===============5492154441003411172==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Aug 11 00:52:17 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 18:51:52 -0600 Message-ID: <0ac3c0ae-3b3b-f920-c7a1-cc89f8d177a1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5225866042722601280==" --===============5225866042722601280== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/7/22 3:39 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > :-D I see what you did there. Do you /really/? ;-) > Depends on the flies, of course. I discovered it by accident. I'm a > Brit (and Irish now). We're not all that big on pickled cucumbers -- > gherkins -- in the UK. A lot of people pick the slices out of their > burgers and throw them out. (We pickle lots of other vegetables, > especially onions and hard-boiled eggs, so "pickles" in British English > is a generic term for anything pickled, and we very rarely use it > because it's too vague. "The pickles aisle in the supermarket" maybe.) I see / hear people use the word "pickled" as in the phrase "pickled eggs" or whatever else has been pickled. Usually just the word "pickles" is analogous to "pickled cucumber". But people pickle all sort of things. > I love gherkins. Now I live in central Europe where they're big on > gherkins and they eat loads of the things. So I do, with pleasure. You > can buy *really big* jars of gherkins in ordinary supermarkets. I > am hazy on US liquid units, as I never really knew the Imperial ones > and yours are different anyway. So US ones make no sense to me, but > maybe a gallon jar, or even 2 gallon jars? 8 pints is a UK gallon > but I think 4 pints is a US gallon? I see things sold by Imperial liquid units and metric liquid units. We can't forget fractions thereof either. Then there are people that sell things by weight. > Yeah well. I bought a ?2? ?gallon? jar of gherkins. It was too big to > fit into the refrigerator. But they're pickled, right, so preserved, > so I left them out. Mistake. You *do* attract fruit flies with > vinegar. *Lots* of them. And their maggots can live in vinegar if > they are at the surface and can breathe air. Interesting. > What happened to my gherkins was very _very_ nasty and I never bought > such a big jar again. And disgusting. Though there are probably people that are into that sort of thing. I obviously am not. They can have my share. You /might/ have been okay, for at least a little while, if the container had been sealed and unrefrigerated. > I might be able to keep a goldfish in the jar, though... Picked or not? }:-) > Britain's a bit cold for fruit flies. Until I moved here they were > _Drosophila melanogaster_ to me, a lab animal. The maggots' salivary > glands have some of the biggest chromosomes in nature: you can see > and count genes down an optical microscope. And a student can be > taught how to anaesthetise and sort the sexes of fruit flies using > an easy-to-use binocular microscope. To each their own. I'll be messing with old computers / networks / phones. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============5225866042722601280==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Aug 11 05:53:56 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 23:53:34 -0600 Message-ID: <9cdbf98f-21ff-77f9-2676-2f5e73370913@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0808194130953530583==" --===============0808194130953530583== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if it's possible, or -- better -- have experience using a cell phone as a dial up modem? I'm wondering about doing something as an alternative to a traditional POTS modem connected to a VoIP ATA. I'd think that treating the phone as a traditional modem with venerable Hayes AT commands might be more reliable than trying to do dial up connections across VoIP. It's been *YEARS* since I've tried to connect a modem to a serial port on a PC, universal or otherwise. Does anyone have any experience with or thoughts about doing this? -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============0808194130953530583==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Thu Aug 11 08:07:50 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 01:07:39 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9cdbf98f-21ff-77f9-2676-2f5e73370913@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0182359886165842874==" --===============0182359886165842874== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/10/2022 10:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know if it's possible, or -- better -- have experience > using a cell phone as a dial up modem? > > I'm wondering about doing something as an alternative to a traditional > POTS modem connected to a VoIP ATA.  I'd think that treating the phone > as a traditional modem with venerable Hayes AT commands might be more > reliable than trying to do dial up connections across VoIP. > > It's been *YEARS* since I've tried to connect a modem to a serial port > on a PC, universal or otherwise. > > Does anyone have any experience with or thoughts about doing this? > I have used such as US Robotics with a vonage voip account pad. Sends and receives faxes quite well, as well. The cell phone perhaps could provide a connection.  A friend used the cell via Wifi tethering to a PC.  Then set up a route command to make it primary and function as a router outside.  Then connect to the network via other devices, including the voip box. We used this for a company I did IT chores for in a pinch when bell couldn't make up its mind for our DSL, and pissed off T-Mobile.  But a couple of devices behind the tether didn't piss it off.  Using  10 pcs did though. (FWIW). The vonage for voice worked, but not sure if it could do much more than 2400 or such (whereever you can function in modem protocol land w/o phase coherency.) We were in the center of Santa Ana with a very close in cell site, BTW. Thanks Jim --===============0182359886165842874==-- From useddec@gmail.com Thu Aug 11 09:59:46 2022 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCFMW DEC and other gear Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 02:35:05 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3179438830768918085==" --===============3179438830768918085== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If all goes well I will be driving up to WCFMW on Friday, Sep 9th, with a van loaded with DEC and PC items. If you are interested in any DEC gear, please contact me as early as possible so I can get it loaded. If you want to stop here on your way to or from VCFMW, please contact me ASAP to set up a day and time. I am located about 12 miles west of Champaign, IL ( I-57, I-74), which is about 2 1/2 or 3 hours south of WCFMW. If anyone is interested in DEC chips, I will be taking offers on several DEC boards (M7819, DZ11 and M8044, MSV11-DD come to mind- I have dozens of each) with the gold fingers cut off. I hate to do this, and you might hate it too, but I have a lot of stuff sitting here for years that need to go. I also have an assortment of several thousand unused ECL chips. Please contact me off list if you have any interest or questions. If you wish to talk, I will gladly give you my phone # off list. Thanks, Paul --===============3179438830768918085==-- From abuse@cabal.org.uk Thu Aug 11 11:08:41 2022 From: Peter Corlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 12:52:02 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9cdbf98f-21ff-77f9-2676-2f5e73370913@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1283059808893478686==" --===============1283059808893478686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 11:53:34PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know if it's possible, or -- better -- have experience using a > cell phone as a dial up modem? I did it routinely in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I stopped once I got a GPRS-capable handset, since that was much cheaper to run: 1MB of data cost the same as a one minute call (which could shift 144kB at best, although 30-40kB was more typical) on Vodafone UK in the late 2000s. By coincidence, this is still the case for me now on Lebara NL, but the prices are *much* lower. My phone used a relatively obscure corner of the GSM standard known as CSD (Circuit Switched Data) which was essentially implemented as a flag set by the handset to tell the base station that it should use a dialup modem codec instead of the GSM voice codec for this call. CSD would only use a single GSM timeslot and was limited to 9600 bps, but HSCSD (High Speed Circuit Switched Data) could use multiple slots and telcos usually charged a lot more for such calls. So far, so good and It Just Works(TM), right? Unfortunately, there are confounding factors: * I suspect you're in the USA, which used NIH instead of GSM, and what it supported and still supports is any guess. * While GSM networks still exist, they've been pared down somewhat to make space for 4G and coverage can be patchy or suffer from congestion. 4G has *no* native support for phone calls: handsets either fall back to GSM (like my "new" iPhone SE which I had to buy after KPN turned off its 3G network) or 3G, or tunnel voice calls over VoIP. * Wikipedia also notes that "After 2010 many telecommunication carriers dropped support for CSD, and CSD has been superseded by GPRS and EDGE (E-GPRS)." Except of course that GPRS and EDGE are packet-switched services and no call is made, so it is not a direct substitute. * Modern handsets may not give you sufficient access to the cellular modem's serial port to send the appropriate AT commands to configure and make a (HS)CSD call. On the upside, 2G is mainly being kept around for the benefit of millions of embedded devices which have 2G modems, so I suspect CSD is still supported by extant 2G networks despite Wikipedia's claim to the contrary. I have not tested this hypothesis. So, just come to Europe and use an embedded GSM module instead of a whole phone :) --===============1283059808893478686==-- From stephenbuck@mac.com Thu Aug 11 17:41:27 2022 From: stephenbuck@mac.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 17:41:23 +0000 Message-ID: <166023968369.2127592.13584778113159309890@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Clf8Sr43teUdQkIEE5ZJyvlWqCTAmayZ2QOh87mSzybOuF1xbU?= =?utf-8?q?=5FYY-YhXcHvAlNQfL=5F36g35OW73lIlZks7hz0ugRbbKIiq8WGTtYyamOLSc=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4200465741655109387==" --===============4200465741655109387== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would buy 2 or 3. Thanks, Steve --===============4200465741655109387==-- From david@gloveraoki.net Thu Aug 11 17:55:53 2022 From: David Glover-Aoki To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Mac SE/30 + SCSI2SD: Disk errors and random crashes Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:46:58 -0700 Message-ID: <6A57EF5C-6876-45A2-AE3C-D20F71AC5BAD@gloveraoki.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9078322913861696237==" --===============9078322913861696237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a recently recapped SE/30, and I have installed a SCSI2SD (v5.0a) insi= de it. I don't have a (working) CD drive, and the floppy drive is broken, so = I configured SCSI device 3 to be a CD-ROM drive, and put the System 7.5.3 ins= taller inside it, along with a copy of the patched "HD SC Setup" utility, so = I can format the other SCSI devices, which are configured as 2GB hard disks. Booting from the "CD" works fine. Formatting the disks works fine. I cannot get the System 7.5.3 installer to complete. After copying a few file= s, it complains that an error occurred, and then aborts. Additionally, if I attempt to copy the contents of the "CD" to a hard disk, a= fter copying a few files, I get an error that says a "disk error" occurred. I= t's not the same file every time, it copies a random number of files successf= ully before erroring. I've have also had a few random bomb errors, although these do not happen rel= iably and I haven't managed to come up with a way of causing them on demand. = They may have stopped after I swapped the RAM, although that is speculation. Things that I have tried: * Playing with the "SCSI Host", "SCSI Selection Delay", "Enable Parity", "Res= pond to short SCSI selection pulses" settings on the SCSI2SD. No combination = seems to make any noticeable difference. * Swapping out the RAM on the SE/30. I initially thought the RAM was bad, but= I replaced it with a different set and the symptoms are exactly the same. * Removing the case back, in case something was overheating inside. * Replacing the microSD card with a different one. None of these have altered the symptoms at all, and I'm running out of ideas.= Any suggestions would be very welcome. David --===============9078322913861696237==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 18:13:06 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Mac SE/30 + SCSI2SD: Disk errors and random crashes Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 18:12:58 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6A57EF5C-6876-45A2-AE3C-D20F71AC5BAD@gloveraoki.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5147940669686179464==" --===============5147940669686179464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Intermittent power supply problem?=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 11, 2022, at 10:55, David Glover-Aoki via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI have a recently recapped SE/30, and I have installed a SCSI2SD (= v5.0a) inside it. I don't have a (working) CD drive, and the floppy drive is = broken, so I configured SCSI device 3 to be a CD-ROM drive, and put the Syste= m 7.5.3 installer inside it, along with a copy of the patched "HD SC Setup" u= tility, so I can format the other SCSI devices, which are configured as 2GB h= ard disks. >=20 > Booting from the "CD" works fine. Formatting the disks works fine. >=20 > I cannot get the System 7.5.3 installer to complete. After copying a few fi= les, it complains that an error occurred, and then aborts. >=20 > Additionally, if I attempt to copy the contents of the "CD" to a hard disk,= after copying a few files, I get an error that says a "disk error" occurred.= It's not the same file every time, it copies a random number of files succes= sfully before erroring. >=20 > I've have also had a few random bomb errors, although these do not happen r= eliably and I haven't managed to come up with a way of causing them on demand= . They may have stopped after I swapped the RAM, although that is speculation. >=20 > Things that I have tried: >=20 > * Playing with the "SCSI Host", "SCSI Selection Delay", "Enable Parity", "R= espond to short SCSI selection pulses" settings on the SCSI2SD. No combinatio= n seems to make any noticeable difference. >=20 > * Swapping out the RAM on the SE/30. I initially thought the RAM was bad, b= ut I replaced it with a different set and the symptoms are exactly the same. >=20 > * Removing the case back, in case something was overheating inside. >=20 > * Replacing the microSD card with a different one. >=20 > None of these have altered the symptoms at all, and I'm running out of idea= s. Any suggestions would be very welcome. >=20 > David >=20 --===============5147940669686179464==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Aug 12 00:33:55 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 18:33:33 -0600 Message-ID: <295bbd14-9f05-6cb0-9751-79d14e649fd0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1469300986638221438==" --===============1469300986638221438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/11/22 2:07 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I have used such as US Robotics with a vonage voip account pad. Sends > and receives faxes quite well, as well. ACK > The cell phone perhaps could provide a connection.  A friend used the > cell via Wifi tethering to a PC.  Then set up a route command to make it > primary and function as a router outside.  Then connect to the network > via other devices, including the voip box. That's tangential to what I'm wanting to do. > The vonage for voice worked, but not sure if it could do much more than > 2400 or such (whereever you can function in modem protocol land w/o > phase coherency.) ACK I wonder what level / speed of fax you manged to get to work. I've heard that under optimal situations, sometimes 14.4 can be persuaded to work. > We were in the center of Santa Ana with a very close in cell site, BTW. I wouldn't expect the distance to the cell site to make much difference. At least not as long as there were no drop outs in the cell signal / connection. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============1469300986638221438==-- From jwsmail@jwsss.com Fri Aug 12 07:23:53 2022 From: jim stephens To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 00:23:45 -0700 Message-ID: <9756e378-a7f3-b3c2-818f-e4bb8a1e372c@jwsss.com> In-Reply-To: <295bbd14-9f05-6cb0-9751-79d14e649fd0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4372932928066272391==" --===============4372932928066272391== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/11/2022 5:33 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 8/11/22 2:07 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> I have used such as US Robotics with a vonage voip account pad. Sends >> and receives faxes quite well, as well. > > ACK > not sure what you are after then.  I haven't seen a way to hook up to it in a "modem" fashion, so you can call dialups (like older serial BBS modems) on any phone. >> The cell phone perhaps could provide a connection.  A friend used the >> cell via Wifi tethering to a PC. Then set up a route command to make >> it primary and function as a router outside.  Then connect to the >> network via other devices, including the voip box. > > That's tangential to what I'm wanting to do. > >> The vonage for voice worked, but not sure if it could do much more >> than 2400 or such (whereever you can function in modem protocol land >> w/o phase coherency.) > was glad the pile worked at all. > ACK > > I wonder what level / speed of fax you manged to get to work. > didn't check or care.  The machine ran full blast and sent over a reasonable copy(copies). > I've heard that under optimal situations, sometimes 14.4 can be > persuaded to work. > I know USR should be able to tell, and I used the best version I've seen, a 56k one.  Would be interesting to query it. >> We were in the center of Santa Ana with a very close in cell site, BTW. > > I wouldn't expect the distance to the cell site to make much > difference.  At least not as long as there were no drop outs in the > cell signal / connection. > Makes a big difference on T-mobile.  if it works at all.  Actually they suck.  but I'm not interested in dealing with the billing @ other companies.  T-mobile is creeping towards not being useful though. I was interested in two problems here, one to run an office or network on my cell.  And the other to use the old modems to dial into dialup services. World in Boston still has dialup into their service, which is a remote shell service. > > --===============4372932928066272391==-- From dave@mitton.com Fri Aug 12 17:09:04 2022 From: Dave Mitton To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 13:08:58 -0400 Message-ID: <1660324138-116511@mid.hostedemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2432367754704863990==" --===============2432367754704863990== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, =20 The issue I don=E2=80=99t understand, I guess a matter of not understanding L= inux internals, is why does =E2=80=9Cthe kernel=E2=80=9D require explicit DE= Cnet support? I built DECnet-DOS without any cooperation from Microsoft. Or PathWorks fo= r Windows 95 was built on top of published APIs. =20 Why does a modern OS need stuff built in? Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows --===============2432367754704863990==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Aug 12 17:35:36 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 13:35:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1660324138-116511@mid.hostedemail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2120376051258763254==" --===============2120376051258763254== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 12, 2022, at 1:08 PM, Dave Mitton via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Okay, =20 >=20 > The issue I don=E2=80=99t understand, I guess a matter of not understanding= Linux internals, is why does =E2=80=9Cthe kernel=E2=80=9D require explicit = DECnet support? >=20 > I built DECnet-DOS without any cooperation from Microsoft. Or PathWorks = for Windows 95 was built on top of published APIs. =20 >=20 > Why does a modern OS need stuff built in? >=20 >=20 > Dave. It depends on whether you want to hook into existing system APIs (such as, in= this case, the socket API). And if yes, whether that API is designed to be = extensible. For example, in Linux as in most other operating systems, adding services tha= t look like device drivers is easy. In a lot of operating systems, adding se= rvices that look like file systems is also doable because that API is designe= d to be plugged into. But not all OS APIs are that way. Can a Linux loadabl= e module, without help from the core kernel code, define a new socket address= family, and tie into the socket API for sockets attached to that family? I = don't know. If yes, then indeed doing Linux doesn't require explicit help fr= om the core kernel. But if no, then it does -- or alternatively the DECnet A= PI becomes clunkier. paul --===============2120376051258763254==-- From Flash688@flying-disk.com Fri Aug 12 20:41:57 2022 From: Alan Frisbie To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Dec rl02 disk pack shelf design Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 13:32:13 -0700 Message-ID: <1b18defa-93fe-7766-36c9-788fd48d16e2@flying-disk.com> In-Reply-To: <166032360635.2127582.18315984561430978945@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6195772744186445355==" --===============6195772744186445355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would also buy at least two, probably three. Alan Frisbie --===============6195772744186445355==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Aug 12 22:31:24 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: question about terminals Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 17:28:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2204963482266764494==" --===============2204963482266764494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Replying to myself...Read manual...terminal does not talk to modems at 2400b, had to step down to 300b, worked. On Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 2:25 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > I have an old terminal without a CTS line. If I hook up my laptop running > Teraterm 2400,7N1 to the terminal and use a null modem cable I can type > characters in the laptop and they appear on the terminal and if I type > characters in the terminal they appear on the laptop. > > If I attach an ESP82660 WIfi modem to the laptop running teraterm I can > connect, etc to use the WIFI - i.e. connect to a telnet service (ATDT > bbs.fozztexx.com or towel.blinkenlights.nl). > > If I attach the same ESP82660 to the terminal, the ESP transmits to the > terminal fine (to show the initial connection screen) but I when I type > characters (such as ATZ) they do not appear on the display and I thus > believe do not transmit, thus no echo back from the ESP. SO, there is > something in the config of the ESP that is not happy. I have the terminal > and laptop set for 2400,7N1. > > The pins of the terminal are > 1 - ground > 2 - transmitted data > 3. - receive data > 4 - rts > 7 signal ground > 8 data carrier detector > 11 reverse channel transmit data > 12 reverse channel receive data > 18 read only data > 20 data terminal ready. > > I am working on this, but any tips would be appreciated. Do I need Mark > or Space parity? > > Bill > --===============2204963482266764494==-- From ball.of.john@gmail.com Sat Aug 13 01:21:19 2022 From: John Ball To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 01:21:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <166023720667.2127582.4129561324737928969@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8426060422564968772==" --===============8426060422564968772== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've done this several different ways in the past, depending on your take of "Cell phone". For the phone that is probably in your pocket right now I've used one of those bluetooth bridges that looks like a bluetooth handsfree device to the phone but on your side you get a 48/90v POTS RJ11 for a regular phone. You can attach a modem to them but some of those adapters do not emit a dial tone. These older adapters have major problems regarding audio quality and noise cancellation. I could not relaibly make it hold a connection above 300bps. Even 110bps had spurious corruption from time to time so barely enough for a teletype connection and over an acoustic coupler it was not a lot better by using one of those hipster handsets that plugged into the headphone jack on phones, when a headphone jack was still a thing......That feels weird to even say. I do have a data kit for motorola's line of bag and car phones but that requires the discontinued AMPS service. Same goes for the data kit for my Tandy rebranded Nokia portable telephone which has basically an audio breakout so you can attach an acoustic coupler. Radio Shack's catalog made this adapter seem WAY cooler than it really was but I guess if you were high-rollin' with a Tandy portable that was one way to dial into the office. On the other hand I've also done data calls over an MSAT phone. A Mitsubishi OmniQuest ST251 if you plug a terminal into the serial port responds to hayes AT commands and emulates a 1200bps modem but the cal was very, very expensive as it switches the radio specifically into a data-only mode. If we're talking satellite phones that fot in your pocket I've logged into Slashnet over a Globalstar GSP-1600 while camping which also appears as a Hayes modem but under Windows you get an extra-special modem definition driver that lets you engage speeds up to a blazing fast 9600bps. -John >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 23:53:34 -0600 >From: Grant Taylor >Subject: [cctalk] Cell phone as a dial up modem. >To: cctalk >Message-ID: > <9cdbf98f-21ff-77f9-2676-2f5e73370913(a)spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > >Does anyone know if it's possible, or -- better -- have experience using >a cell phone as a dial up modem? > >I'm wondering about doing something as an alternative to a traditional >POTS modem connected to a VoIP ATA. I'd think that treating the phone >as a traditional modem with venerable Hayes AT commands might be more >reliable than trying to do dial up connections across VoIP. > >It's been *YEARS* since I've tried to connect a modem to a serial port >on a PC, universal or otherwise. > >Does anyone have any experience with or thoughts about doing this? > >-- >Grant. . . . >unix || die --===============8426060422564968772==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Aug 13 02:39:30 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 20:39:09 -0600 Message-ID: <25e836b3-8454-9f1a-3aa1-8287588e7a6f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6080050586277118684==" --===============6080050586277118684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/11/22 11:39 PM, John Ball via cctalk wrote: > I've done this several different ways in the past, depending on your > take of "Cell phone". Well, I believe that everything you've mentioned is somewhere in the scope of a "cell phone". Maybe barely, but close counts in this context. > For the phone that is probably in your pocket right now I've used one > of those bluetooth bridges that looks like a bluetooth handsfree device > to the phone but on your side you get a 48/90v POTS RJ11 for a regular > phone. Interesting. I wasn't aware that such a permutation existed. Though it seems somewhat obvious in hindsight. > You can attach a modem to them but some of those adapters do not emit > a dial tone. No dial tone can probably be worked around via AT commands / firmware settings to not wait for a dial tone. I think ringing voltage might be more important for handling incoming calls. > These older adapters have major problems regarding audio quality and > noise cancellation. I could not relaibly make it hold a connection > above 300bps. Ugh. > Even 110bps had spurious corruption from time to time so barely > enough for a teletype connection and over an acoustic coupler it was > not a lot better by using one of those hipster handsets that plugged > into the headphone jack on phones, when a headphone jack was still > a thing......That feels weird to even say. }:-) The data kit and MSAT are the types of interaction that I was thinking of when I started this thread. The more that this thread, and others like it continues, I'm feeling more and more like the retro X.25 network that people like æstrid and co are making is something I need to look into more. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============6080050586277118684==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 13 07:07:30 2022 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 00:52:16 -0600 Message-ID: <131adbbe-f39c-1804-6ee5-8b9a5d33f0cf@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: <25e836b3-8454-9f1a-3aa1-8287588e7a6f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5652204366707767233==" --===============5652204366707767233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would a serial to Wi-Fi converter work in your case as well? Ben. --===============5652204366707767233==-- From mike_t_norris@hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 11:55:26 2022 From: Mike Norris To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Unused Punched Cards Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 11:55:17 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3761526256530737730==" --===============3761526256530737730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone, I have just come across around 900 blank punch cards, they are plastic about = 5 thou in thickness. Would they be of interest to anyone on the list, they in the UK in Lancashire= , but might be expensive to post as they are heavy (430 grams per 100)? Cost a few GBP for a beer and postage costs, if interested please contact off= list mike_t_norris(a)hotmail.com. Regards Mike Norris --===============3761526256530737730==-- From g4ugm@outlook.com Sat Aug 13 16:59:25 2022 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Unused Punched Cards Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 16:59:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CAS4PR02MB8333E2A52B43023EFF2EC297AA669=40AS4PR02MB?= =?utf-8?q?8333=2Eeurprd02=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7916856659572745883==" --===============7916856659572745883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are they really Punch cards? Could the be for a Selectric Mag Card device They use a mylar card the same size a a punch card. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Norris via cctalk > Sent: 13 August 2022 12:55 > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: Mike Norris > Subject: [cctalk] Unused Punched Cards >=20 > Hello Everyone, >=20 > I have just come across around 900 blank punch cards, they are plastic abou= t 5 > thou in thickness. >=20 > Would they be of interest to anyone on the list, they in the UK in Lancashi= re, but > might be expensive to post as they are heavy (430 grams per 100)? >=20 > Cost a few GBP for a beer and postage costs, if interested please contact o= ff list > mike_t_norris(a)hotmail.com. >=20 > Regards Mike Norris --===============7916856659572745883==-- From cctalk@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Aug 13 17:04:24 2022 From: Grant Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cell phone as a dial up modem. Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 11:04:00 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <131adbbe-f39c-1804-6ee5-8b9a5d33f0cf@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5212480225631242161==" --===============5212480225631242161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/13/22 12:52 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Would a serial to Wi-Fi converter work in your case as well? No it would not. I'm explicitly wanting to support things that are used over modems. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --===============5212480225631242161==-- From matt@9track.net Sun Aug 14 08:23:06 2022 From: Matt Burke To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2022 09:22:53 +0100 Message-ID: <02b1f6b8-4ad6-ef8c-8290-608e3d7367c6@9track.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6206293276064845300==" --===============6206293276064845300== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/08/2022 18:35, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Can a Linux loadable module, without help from the core kernel code, > define a new socket address family, and tie into the socket API for > sockets attached to that family? I don't know. If yes, then indeed > doing Linux doesn't require explicit help from the core kernel. But if > no, then it does -- or alternatively the DECnet API becomes clunkier. Yes it can and this is what I was describing in my previous post. The DECnet code could continue to be maintained as an out-of-tree module for the people that want it even after it's removed from the kernel. The only thing that may be lost is the Netfilter support. There may be a way to add that through a module too but I've not looked into it. Matt --===============6206293276064845300==-- From mike_t_norris@hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 10:16:38 2022 From: Mike Norris To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Unused Punched Cards Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:16:31 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CAS4PR02MB8333E2A52B43023EFF2EC297AA669=40AS4PR02MB?= =?utf-8?q?8333=2Eeurprd02=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1899308925971771777==" --===============1899308925971771777== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Further to my post, all are spoken for now - Thank you for your support. Regards Mike Norris ________________________________ From: Mike Norris via cctalk Sent: 13 August 2022 12:55 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Mike Norris Subject: [cctalk] Unused Punched Cards Hello Everyone, I have just come across around 900 blank punch cards, they are plastic about = 5 thou in thickness. Would they be of interest to anyone on the list, they in the UK in Lancashire= , but might be expensive to post as they are heavy (430 grams per 100)? Cost a few GBP for a beer and postage costs, if interested please contact off= list mike_t_norris(a)hotmail.com. Regards Mike Norris --===============1899308925971771777==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Aug 14 11:53:26 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2022 07:53:16 -0400 Message-ID: <39784496-C5C0-4912-B22A-680B39951868@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <02b1f6b8-4ad6-ef8c-8290-608e3d7367c6@9track.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1771606512658143353==" --===============1771606512658143353== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 14, 2022, at 4:22 AM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 12/08/2022 18:35, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Can a Linux loadable module, without help from the core kernel code, >> define a new socket address family, and tie into the socket API for >> sockets attached to that family? I don't know. If yes, then indeed >> doing Linux doesn't require explicit help from the core kernel. But if >> no, then it does -- or alternatively the DECnet API becomes clunkier. >=20 > Yes it can and this is what I was describing in my previous post. The > DECnet code could continue to be maintained as an out-of-tree module for > the people that want it even after it's removed from the kernel. The > only thing that may be lost is the Netfilter support. There may be a way > to add that through a module too but I've not looked into it. Good to know. It may be that this wasn't possible before. paul --===============1771606512658143353==-- From ryan@ryandelaplante.ca Mon Aug 15 02:16:19 2022 From: Ryan de Laplante To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP Straight-8 front panel Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2022 22:16:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6892919424811885161==" --===============6892919424811885161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a DEC PDP Straight-8 in very poor condition. The paint behind the pan= el glass has mostly flecked off, the glass is broken and it is missing some s= witch covers/toggles. The plexiglass covers were also destroyed during shipme= nt. The seller very carefully built a wooden crate and pallet to protect the= machine during transport, but United Cargo laid the whole wooden crate on it= s side!! >( =20 Does anyone know of any front panel collector who has a Straight-8 front pane= l that they might be willing to sell? I=E2=80=99d love to restore this machi= ne. I=E2=80=99ve been looking for local plexiglass manufacturers but none o= f them answer my email when I show pictures of the project. I guess they do= n=E2=80=99t need the business. --===============6892919424811885161==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 02:52:40 2022 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP Straight-8 front panel Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 02:52:32 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3185167936325211351==" --===============3185167936325211351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rod Smallwood has done reproductions i think. He is on cctalk. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 14, 2022, at 19:16, Ryan de Laplante via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI have a DEC PDP Straight-8 in very poor condition. The paint beh= ind the panel glass has mostly flecked off, the glass is broken and it is mis= sing some switch covers/toggles. The plexiglass covers were also destroyed du= ring shipment. The seller very carefully built a wooden crate and pallet to = protect the machine during transport, but United Cargo laid the whole wooden = crate on its side!! >( =20 >=20 > Does anyone know of any front panel collector who has a Straight-8 front pa= nel that they might be willing to sell? I=E2=80=99d love to restore this mac= hine. I=E2=80=99ve been looking for local plexiglass manufacturers but none= of them answer my email when I show pictures of the project. I guess they = don=E2=80=99t need the business. >=20 >=20 --===============3185167936325211351==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Mon Aug 15 07:41:05 2022 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] (fwd) [cpunks] Google Program to Free Chips Boosts University Semiconductor Design Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 09:40:55 +0200 Message-ID: <20220815074055.GC29896@tau1.ceti.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6309186213204299429==" --===============6309186213204299429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy, I guess this might be of interest to some people here... ----- Forwarded message from jim bell ----- Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 06:12:59 +0000 (UTC) From: jim bell To: CypherPunks Subject: Google Program to Free Chips Boosts University Semiconductor Design https://www.hpcwire.com/2022/08/11/google-program-to-free-chips-boosts-univer= sity-semiconductor-design/ August 11, 2022 A Google-led program to design and manufacture chips for free is becoming popular among researchers and computer enthusiasts. The search giant=E2=80=99s=C2=A0open silicon program=C2=A0is providing the to= ols for anyone to design chips, which then get manufactured. Google foots the entire bill, from a chip=E2=80=99s conception to delivery of the final product in a user=E2=80=99s hand. Google=E2=80=99s Open MPW program includes an open-source design toolkit from a company called EFabless, which also manages the program. Enthusiasts and researchers have to submit their chip design, which then gets manufactured in the factories of SkyWater on the 130nm process. The submission deadline for the latest=C2=A0Open MPW program=C2=A0is September 12. Open MPW=E2=80=99s popularity can be measured by the number of projects using Efabless=E2=80=99 EDA tools. Chips from about 240 open-source silicon projects via Efabless=E2=80=99 tools will be manufactured in Skywater=E2=80=99s factor= ies, Mike Wishart, CEO of Efabless. =E2=80=9CThe total projects posted on our site are like 570. That has gone extremely well. It=E2=80=99s diverse, from 25 countries,=E2=80=9D Wishart sai= d. Efabless had about 160 tapeouts in 2021, and had no tapeouts in 2020. Efabless provides a simple design EDA tool to make chips, which is mostly about dragging and dropping the core elements inside a chip. An open-source PDK (process design kit) prepares the chip for fabrication in factories. The Open MPW program added recent partners, including the U.S. Department of Defense, which last month poured $15 million into the project to get open-source chips made on SkyWater=E2=80=99s 90nm process. GlobalFoundries also joined the alliance and will also manufacture chips on the 180nm node. The manufacturing technology provided through the project is very old, but it is cost-effective. Intel, Apple and others make expensive chips on the more advanced processes such as 5nm, which uses cutting-edge technology and provides the fastest computing in devices. Open MPW is popular in academia and research, and for those experimenting or testing chips and need small batches, Wishart said. =E2=80=9COur incentive is to make it simple for more and more people and grow a community around those executing designs=E2=80=A6 [on] nodes that are more accessible to them and therefore lower costs,=E2=80=9D Wishart said. Typically, chips can be expensive to manufacture, and factories are open to corporations. But Open MPW makes factories available to researchers and students. =E2=80=9CThere was an unmet need in academia, that was overwhelming and not appreciated because they didn=E2=80=99t know what they could get,=E2=80=9D Wi= shart said. The open-source toolkits cover the full concept of chip development, from conceptualization to delivery of parts. Some universities may have deals with chip factories, but students at the undergraduate, master=E2=80=99s and PhD programs still have poor awareness of chip fabrication. ----- End forwarded message ----- --===============6309186213204299429==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Tue Aug 16 07:43:08 2022 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 07:42:55 +0000 Message-ID: <2137867595.2478288.1660635775571@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2137867595.2478288.1660635775571.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8345246179896218691==" --===============8345246179896218691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello list,=20 by coincidence, I came across this website: https://www.micropolis.com/ It seems to have been set up by a former employee of Micropolis with informat= ion about Micropolis products done until the late 90s. Cheers,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============8345246179896218691==-- From couryhouse@aol.com Tue Aug 16 08:12:59 2022 From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 08:12:46 +0000 Message-ID: <1330150664.1240119.1660637566939@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2137867595.2478288.1660635775571@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8464357450091027052==" --===============8464357450091027052== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You all need to make sure you archive a copy of this site..... Sent from the all new AOL app for Android=20 =20 On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:43 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: Hello list,=20 by coincidence, I came across this website: https://www.micropolis.com/ It seems to have been set up by a former employee of Micropolis with informat= ion about Micropolis products done until the late 90s. Cheers,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de =20 --===============8464357450091027052==-- From toby@telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 16 12:34:48 2022 From: Toby Thain To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 08:34:36 -0400 Message-ID: <635ac767-7564-de5b-b1fc-b95d34d6ef9a@telegraphics.com.au> In-Reply-To: <2137867595.2478288.1660635775571@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4430346130922610909==" --===============4430346130922610909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-08-16 3:42 a.m., P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hello list, >=20 > by coincidence, I came across this website: >=20 > https://www.micropolis.com/ >=20 > It seems to have been set up by a former employee of Micropolis with inform= ation about Micropolis products done until the late 90s. If people are into Micropolis ephemera, I scanned a bunch of their=20 newsletters: https://docs.telegraphics.com.au/Micropolis_Users_Group/index.html Note these are multipage TIFFs, readable with most system installed=20 readers, e.g. Apple Preview. --Toby >=20 > Cheers, > Pierre >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============4430346130922610909==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Aug 16 13:25:32 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 13:25:20 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2137867595.2478288.1660635775571@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8209315698036255909==" --===============8209315698036255909== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I stumbled across that the other day, looking for information on their 100 TP= I drives commonly used with Vector Graphic stuff. I was very surprised to fin= d it! Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, August 16th, 2022 at 03:42, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hello list, >=20 > by coincidence, I came across this website: >=20 > https://www.micropolis.com/ >=20 > It seems to have been set up by a former employee of Micropolis with inform= ation about Micropolis products done until the late 90s. >=20 > Cheers, > Pierre >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============8209315698036255909==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Aug 16 15:12:52 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 07:54:26 -0700 Message-ID: <24466b47-8dc6-dc5f-4419-ecdf83ff1fef@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3ChVrWcDD8fiiIAvUo3CGWyxfzLa=5FR5C4R3I2tZwqQJ7rq1aKM?= =?utf-8?q?6fr2L5Sj6fW96bu47Z983XopNwyI-Dbw6gJgtgGFbw5oD4TfHOrVrRulB7I=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2939826060327417645==" --===============2939826060327417645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/16/22 06:25, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > I stumbled across that the other day, looking for information on their 100 = TPI drives commonly used with Vector Graphic stuff. I was very surprised to f= ind it! The last time I checked, bitsavers had information on the 1015, 1016 and 1115 floppy drives (I have all three models). Did the VG use something different? --Chuck --===============2939826060327417645==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Aug 16 15:17:59 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 15:17:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <24466b47-8dc6-dc5f-4419-ecdf83ff1fef@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8781741822064126198==" --===============8781741822064126198== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The last time I checked, bitsavers had information on the 1015, 1016 and > 1115 floppy drives (I have all three models). Did the VG use something > different? No, but I didn't find the model numbering w.r.t. first chassis vs. expansion = chassis very clear, especially between the older "blue box" drives and newer = "beige box" drives, and the new Micropolis site lays it out plainly with a ta= ble of possible model numbers. The new site was one of the higher results for= one of the expansion chassis model numbers I'd searched. Thanks, Jonathan --===============8781741822064126198==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Aug 16 16:20:20 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 09:20:01 -0700 Message-ID: <92aa2245-5146-e50f-f227-4d52bfa0d8b0@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CH90VLc2-VyvQZdtTmvFE6L-UpWiy7IOiifU9SKJsTq7W3VAO83?= =?utf-8?q?YPaHtSt7S=5FQhZv1TNONzFsACLgQeOkJRV0Iz8WgtUGd5O-tgyxHrGxyGk=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1556518443125040770==" --===============1556518443125040770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/16/22 08:17, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> The last time I checked, bitsavers had information on the 1015, 1016 and >> 1115 floppy drives (I have all three models). Did the VG use something >> different? >=20 > No, but I didn't find the model numbering w.r.t. first chassis vs. expansio= n chassis very clear, especially between the older "blue box" drives and newe= r "beige box" drives, and the new Micropolis site lays it out plainly with a = table of possible model numbers. The new site was one of the higher results f= or one of the expansion chassis model numbers I'd searched. Ah, I've always gone by the physical drive itself. There were changes early on with the blue-lever Micropolis drives to start the motor when closing the drive latch. It was a real problem back in thee day with the early drives--the spindle motor wouldn't be turning when the disk was seated, which resulted in seating the disk off-center much of the time, mangling the hub. I think it was Dysan that first showed up with reinforcing ring kits to be applied to disks to ameliorate the problem, but ultimately the solution turned out to be making sure that the motor was on during the seating process. That's why, for example, 5.25" DD media usually has hub reinforcement, but HD media rarely does. By the time HD media was a thing, the problem had been solved. --Chuck --===============1556518443125040770==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Tue Aug 16 16:54:24 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 09:54:16 -0700 Message-ID: <015f01d8b190$d2eca240$78c5e6c0$@net> In-Reply-To: <92aa2245-5146-e50f-f227-4d52bfa0d8b0@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3077621382016324813==" --===============3077621382016324813== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I think it was Dysan that first showed up with reinforcing ring kits to > be applied to disks to ameliorate the problem, but ultimately the > solution turned out to be making sure that the motor was on during the > seating process. That's why, for example, 5.25" DD media usually has > hub reinforcement, but HD media rarely does. By the time HD media was > a > thing, the problem had been solved. Chuck, Then why was is it that DD media bought well after HD media was available, in= use, and the norm still had the reinforced ring? Tradition?=20 -Ali --===============3077621382016324813==-- From lists@glitchwrks.com Tue Aug 16 17:33:16 2022 From: Jonathan Chapman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 17:32:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <015f01d8b190$d2eca240$78c5e6c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7664621371718700883==" --===============7664621371718700883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I think it was Dysan that first showed up with reinforcing ring kits Probably, "Grabettes." > Then why was is it that DD media bought well after HD media was available, = in use, and the norm still had the reinforced ring? Tradition? You might be putting it in an old drive. It was also available without, I had= several thousand without reinforcements from Verbatim, bought in bulk bags. Thanks, Jonathan --===============7664621371718700883==-- From cclist@sydex.com Tue Aug 16 18:14:09 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 11:13:49 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Cj28F9QjfcyCVfY5YdNpDDN0u=5Flm-S-D0iMkqO3q2bHuhNbwO?= =?utf-8?q?gc6UhMhcCstmUF5VMpWWwnfQEDBl8Grauetuw93tD1Bq=5FArFBOog7BBebhc=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4050982440362918275==" --===============4050982440362918275== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/16/22 10:32, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> I think it was Dysan that first showed up with reinforcing ring kits >=20 > Probably, "Grabettes." >=20 >> Then why was is it that DD media bought well after HD media was available,= in use, and the norm still had the reinforced ring? Tradition? >=20 > You might be putting it in an old drive. It was also available without, I h= ad several thousand without reinforcements from Verbatim, bought in bulk bags. My recollection is that media tagged for RX50 use (the stuff with the arrow stickers) never had the reinforcing rings, as they were probably not needed. --Chuck --===============4050982440362918275==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Tue Aug 16 18:36:16 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 18:35:46 +0000 Message-ID: <21981E22-B317-4149-9A33-34DCB525831F@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3084732469122170966==" --===============3084732469122170966== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Likewise rx01 and 02 drives were always spinning On August 16, 2022 6:13:49 PM GMT, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >On 8/16/22 10:32, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >>> I think it was Dysan that first showed up with reinforcing ring kits >>=20 >> Probably, "Grabettes." >>=20 >>> Then why was is it that DD media bought well after HD media was available= , in use, and the norm still had the reinforced ring? Tradition? >>=20 >> You might be putting it in an old drive. It was also available without, I = had several thousand without reinforcements from Verbatim, bought in bulk bag= s. >My recollection is that media tagged for RX50 use (the stuff with the >arrow stickers) never had the reinforcing rings, as they were probably >not needed. > >--Chuck > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. --===============3084732469122170966==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Aug 16 21:30:09 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 14:29:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <635ac767-7564-de5b-b1fc-b95d34d6ef9a@telegraphics.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8392584210616193853==" --===============8392584210616193853== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I got my Micropolis I drive to use on TRS80, it came with a yellow? loose leaf binder with a Micropolis Operating System. Sadly, and shamefully, I never got around to trying that. he drive was 48tpi, 35 track, in a nice blue box. It was slow, (helicaal lead screw), but not any slower than the SA400 drives that TRS80 started off with. Very nice drive. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8392584210616193853==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Tue Aug 16 21:48:24 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 11:35:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3Cj28F9QjfcyCVfY5YdNpDDN0u=5Flm-S-D0iMkqO3q2bHuhNbwO?= =?utf-8?q?gc6UhMhcCstmUF5VMpWWwnfQEDBl8Grauetuw93tD1Bq=5FArFBOog7BBebhc=3D?= =?utf-8?q?=40glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6720341337308504756==" --===============6720341337308504756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 11:33 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I think it was Dysan that first showed up with reinforcing ring kits > > Probably, "Grabettes." > > > Then why was is it that DD media bought well after HD media was > available, in use, and the norm still had the reinforced ring? Tradition? > > You might be putting it in an old drive. It was also available without, I > had several thousand without reinforcements from Verbatim, bought in bulk > bags. > It was a matter of much debate whether or not you wanted hub rings on an RX-50 (though I believe my recollection from back in the day landed on the not side). Warner --===============6720341337308504756==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Tue Aug 16 21:51:40 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 14:51:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <015f01d8b190$d2eca240$78c5e6c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5426794893942053367==" --===============5426794893942053367== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> I think it was Dysan that first showed up with reinforcing ring kits to >> be applied to disks to ameliorate the problem, but ultimately the >> solution turned out to be making sure that the motor was on during the >> seating process. That's why, for example, 5.25" DD media usually has >> hub reinforcement, but HD media rarely does. By the time HD media was >> a thing, the problem had been solved. On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Then why was is it that DD media bought well after HD media was available, = in use, and the norm still had the reinforced ring? Tradition? 1) because they need to keep reinforcing until the very last SA400 is=20 buried. 2) It became the recognizable indicator for which disks were which,=20 especially for those who wouldn't read the label. With a hib-ring is prob'ly a low density; without a hub-ring was either early low density, or "HD". 3) They still had inventory of hub-rings to use up. Dysan disks were always good. The early Verbatim disks were not. It was a long time before anybody=20 else, such as Wabash, made anything as bad. To get over their own reputation, Verbatim redesigned, and came out with=20 the "Datalife" series of disks, which were good. And had hub-rings. Inmac used to sell hub-rings and jig to apply them. The "plus" version of the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" also had a=20 post and ring for aligning hub-rings. When we ordered diskettes for the TRS80s in the college lab, the district=20 purchasing agent, who was in bed with Royal, sent us "Roytype" HD disks. When formatted on the TRS80, they would self-erase in minutes! They kept sending us Roytype HD, Even when we specified that we wanted=20 "Verbatim Datalife". But, when we insisted that we needed hub-rings on them, we finally got DD=20 disks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============5426794893942053367==-- From cclist@sydex.com Wed Aug 17 00:20:58 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 17:20:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6409131808353806511==" --===============6409131808353806511== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/16/22 14:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Dysan disks were always good. > The early Verbatim disks were not.  It was a long time before anybody > else, such as Wabash, made anything as bad. > To get over their own reputation, Verbatim redesigned, and came out with > the "Datalife" series of disks, which were good.  And had hub-rings. Early on, Verbatim offered two grades of disks. The "purple label" stuff wasn't too awful, but the "pink label" disks were a disaster. Wabash was an equal-opportunity garbage vendor. Even the half-inch open-reel tapes were terrible. I confess never to have used their QIC cartridges, but if they were also terrible, I wouldn't be surprised. There were quite a few disk brands back in the 5.25" days. Somewhere around here, I have a box of Kodak floppies that are warranted against failure. Kodak's deal was that if a disk failed in service, they would pay for professional data recovery. That one didn't last long. Brown Disk floppies had the distinction that the jacket was too thick for some drives--you couldn't get them inserted. Then there was Elephant and a whole raft of other brands that never survived. The funniest experience we had with hub rings was a customer complaining that using our software, a disk copied without errors, but then couldn't be read. In frustration, we asked to see the disk. After a few minutes of examination, it was apparent what was going on--the disk had *two* hub rings on one side, with one slightly offset. On the occasion that a customer requests copies of disks, our go-to brand is still 3M/Imation. I can't recall ever having been disappointed with them. --Chuck --===============6409131808353806511==-- From lee.gleason@comcast.net Wed Aug 17 19:05:05 2022 From: Lee Gleason To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MicroVAX CTI (DEC Professional) card Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2022 14:04:56 -0500 Message-ID: <4b574b27-50f3-dfd7-c294-66b2a8773dfe@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7387392449258443510==" --===============7387392449258443510== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   The vendor who sold me the MicroVAX CTI card found the memory daughter card. It 's missing a few memory chips, but otherwise looks in good shape. Can;t wait to get it, add the missing chips and do some testing. Still a long shot to make it do anything, but it's bound to help. --===============7387392449258443510==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Aug 17 19:20:31 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: MicroVAX CTI (DEC Professional) card Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2022 19:20:21 +0000 Message-ID: <698FD99F-F40E-4128-A234-65C54F80A113@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <4b574b27-50f3-dfd7-c294-66b2a8773dfe@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3780820009217562460==" --===============3780820009217562460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow Can't wait to see what this thing looks like. On August 17, 2022 7:04:56 PM GMT, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > >=C2=A0 The vendor who sold me the MicroVAX CTI card found the memory daughte= r card. It 's missing a few memory chips, but otherwise looks in good shape. = Can;t wait to get it, add the missing chips and do some testing. Still a long= shot to make it do anything, but it's bound to help. > > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. --===============3780820009217562460==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 19 00:41:13 2022 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Wordperfect 5.1 workbook Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 17:41:01 -0700 Message-ID: <43d709a00ab7663acd50e91423ef4c2ccd0c0f0c.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <43d709a00ab7663acd50e91423ef4c2ccd0c0f0c.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4623965332348890867==" --===============4623965332348890867== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a Wordperfect 5.1 workbook. It's yours in exchange for a PDF of a shipping label from 91214 (or free for l;ocal pickup). 9" x 9" x 1", 2lb 8oz. Van Snyder --===============4623965332348890867==-- From healyzh@me.com Fri Aug 19 06:13:00 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wordperfect 5.1 workbook Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 22:25:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <43d709a00ab7663acd50e91423ef4c2ccd0c0f0c.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2528123019124951156==" --===============2528123019124951156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Aug 18, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > I have a Wordperfect 5.1 workbook. >=20 > It's yours in exchange for a PDF of a shipping label from 91214 (or > free for l;ocal pickup). >=20 > 9" x 9" x 1", 2lb 8oz. >=20 > Van Snyder Which OS is it for? Zane --===============2528123019124951156==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Fri Aug 19 10:20:44 2022 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2022 10:20:38 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CH90VLc2-VyvQZdtTmvFE6L-UpWiy7IOiifU9SKJsTq7W3VAO83?= =?utf-8?q?YPaHtSt7S=5FQhZv1TNONzFsACLgQeOkJRV0Iz8WgtUGd5O-tgyxHrGxyGk=3D=40?= =?utf-8?q?glitchwrks=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3483748098274404830==" --===============3483748098274404830== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I concur this is useful. Unrelated factoid. Did you know the Micropolis 1033-II drive is at least semi-compatible with the Tandy Model 1 Expansion Unit with disk capacity daugher card / "doubler" setup? Wonder if anyone ever tried this other than myself. If you have a 1033-II or similar class drive and you're not sure whether it works with your VG system it may be possible to test the drive using the more common TRS 80 expansion interface. Might help differentiate between the VG controller and the drive as a problem area. Bill On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 11:17 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > The last time I checked, bitsavers had information on the 1015, 1016 and > > 1115 floppy drives (I have all three models). Did the VG use something > > different? > > No, but I didn't find the model numbering w.r.t. first chassis vs. > expansion chassis very clear, especially between the older "blue box" > drives and newer "beige box" drives, and the new Micropolis site lays it > out plainly with a table of possible model numbers. The new site was one of > the higher results for one of the expansion chassis model numbers I'd > searched. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > --===============3483748098274404830==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Aug 19 18:40:41 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2022 11:40:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1011639460624195356==" --===============1011639460624195356== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Unrelated factoid. Did you know the Micropolis 1033-II drive is at least > semi-compatible with the Tandy Model 1 Expansion Unit with disk capacity > daugher card / "doubler" setup? Wonder if anyone ever tried this other > than myself. > If you have a 1033-II or similar class drive and you're not sure whether it > works with your VG system it may be possible to test the drive using the > more common TRS 80 expansion interface. Might help differentiate between > the VG controller and the drive as a problem area. OR, you can test the drive using a R(a)RE IBM PC/5150! The TRS80 expansion interface had a "standard" SA400 drive interface. AND, the TRS80 originally had SA400 drives! The Micropolis is an SA400 interface. The Micropolis (lead screw positioner) is SLOW STEPPING. Whereas, the SA400 had a spiral groove on a small disk, like a vinyl record (not a database "record"), so, it is SLOW STEPPING. If you need a drive that is so slow from track to track that it can't get out of its own way, those two drives are it! The Micropois I drive is a superb permanent replacement for TRS80. (SA400 interface, 48tpi, 35 tracks. slow; EXACT replacement) (note: the bare Micropois drive doesn't mount-up completely easily in the TRS80 disk drive case) The MicropolisII can be used on the TRS80, BUT the disks will not be compatible. BECAUSE the MicropolisII is 100tpi/77 track. Yes, you could use the first 35 tracks of it, but no interchange of disks. NEWDOS80/DOSPLUS/LDOS (TRSDOS6), etc. will let you use all 77 tracks. And, of course, obviously, the TRS80 and VG have TOTALLY different disk formats. Other machines that have interface based on SA400, on which you could test the drive include: DAMN NEAR EVERYTHING, EXCEPT APPLE, Commodore, and Atari. Perfect replacement for Northstar (hard sectored) PC/5150, XT/5160 (160K format, minus last 5 tracks, which will be presumed "bad") Any other machine with 5.25" drive that used an SA400, even machines with ""quad density"" (singlesided, and minus last 3 tracks) (Superbrain/Intertec (without last 3 track), (BUT, ""quad density"".) (BUT Intertec, after they went to double density, when they added double sided, they called THAT "quad density". When they went to 80 tracks, they had already used the name "quad density", so they called 80 track DSDD "SUPER density", abbreviated "SD" to keep the labelling confusing)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com . --===============1011639460624195356==-- From bitwiz@12bitsbest.com Fri Aug 19 23:11:07 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PiDP 8/I space wars on PI hdmi screen Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:52:25 -0500 Message-ID: <678031fc-c971-d659-0697-443f13882c4a@12bitsbest.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0638509845556367616==" --===============0638509845556367616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a PiDP-8/I with a VT-220 connected via USB to RS-232 and an HDMI display. How can I get the Space Wars Program (boot IF=4) to run on the HDMI display using the VT-220 keyboard for the controls? I have cross-posted this to the PIDP-8 google group as well. Thank you. --===============0638509845556367616==-- From lproven@gmail.com Sat Aug 20 00:52:20 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 00:52:14 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5887417687282819285==" --===============5887417687282819285== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 23:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > 1) because they need to keep reinforcing until the very last SA400 is > buried. > > 2) It became the recognizable indicator for which disks were which, > especially for those who wouldn't read the label. > With a hib-ring is prob'ly a low density; > without a hub-ring was either early low density, or "HD". This became a big argument on Fesse Bouc a few months back, with some people ferociously and insistently telling me that the presence or absence of a hub ring was an absolutely foolproof, categorical, 100% correct was to tell 360kB from 1.2MB disks, always, no exceptions, and everyone in the world knew that, apart from me. I should have thought to consult with The Guru. I had to look up SA400. I'm too young. The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3=C2=BC inch drive. https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-drive:n= mah_334325 *Sigh* --=20 Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============5887417687282819285==-- From geneb@deltasoft.com Sat Aug 20 14:54:56 2022 From: geneb To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 07:47:25 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3236218002433168468==" --===============3236218002433168468== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 23:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> >> 1) because they need to keep reinforcing until the very last SA400 is >> buried. >> Fred, Don't forget the SA390 in every Disk II. ;) > I had to look up SA400. I'm too young. > > The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3=C2=BC inch drive. > > https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-drive= :nmah_334325 > Now THAT is just tragic. g. --=20 Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============3236218002433168468==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Sat Aug 20 15:51:51 2022 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 08:42:15 -0700 Message-ID: <0033DD4C-60A7-4B33-A47A-8F59318759C8@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7829680879375789309==" --===============7829680879375789309== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 20, 2022, at 7:47 AM, geneb via cctalk wro= te: >=20 > On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> I had to look up SA400. I'm too young. >>=20 >> The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3=C2=BC inch drive. >>=20 >> https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-driv= e:nmah_334325 >>=20 >=20 > Now THAT is just tragic. >=20 > g. I have to ask, which is tragic? Needing to lookup SA400, or the fact that we= bpage (from the Smithsonian), indicates it=E2=80=99s a 3 1/4=E2=80=9D drive. = That wasn=E2=80=99t typo on my part they say *three*. Zane --===============7829680879375789309==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Aug 20 16:26:47 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 09:26:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0033DD4C-60A7-4B33-A47A-8F59318759C8@avanthar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2070561014377335937==" --===============2070561014377335937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/20/22 08:42, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I have to ask, which is tragic? Needing to lookup SA400, or the fact that = webpage (from the Smithsonian), indicates it=E2=80=99s a 3 1/4=E2=80=9D drive= . That wasn=E2=80=99t typo on my part they say *three*. I do have a couple of the 3 1/4" drives and media to match, but they don't look anything like an SA400. I have only two memories of the SA400--the first was when a friend who was a hard-bitten KIM-1 addict got himself a KIMSI and a single-drive Integrand case to hold it all. I don't recall the S100 controller he used, but it was based on the WD1771. An SA400 drive completed the picture. He couldn't get the darned thing to work and turned it over to me to troubleshoot. It turns out that the big Integrand power supply transformer was throwing enough AC magnetic field to render the SA400 nearly useless when the drive was inside the box. Outside of the case, everything worked as expected. Eventually, the solution was to fabricate some steel shielding around the drive. The second instance was when work moved to new digs. We had a brand-new SA400 that was offered to me, because, in the words of the lead disk engineer, it was garbage. It sat around for a year or two at home, and then I stuck it into a 5150 PC. In comparison with the Micropolis drives that we'd been using, he was right. Eventually, an inductor on the tach board opened up and, after repair, the drive was given away. That plastic disc-and-follower arrangement was a terrible idea and the guys at Shugart must have known that. The guys from Micropolis were rightly proud of their precision-ground leadscrew technology and pointing out that the sheet-metal construction was far more precise than the Zamac castings that others were using. It was also far more expensive. IIRC, our OEM price for a carton of the 1115 drives was about $600 (1978 dollars) each. On the other hand, we were getting 460KB (77x12x512) on a single-sided disk using GCR and the WD1781 FDC, all on a Multibus-sized card. That would have been impossible on an SA400. The Micropolis drives were so accurate in positioning that we made our own alignment disks using one mounted on a 1/2" aluminum plate, driving the leadscrew through a 100:1 precision reduction. These disks were for field use, so it was acceptable to record tracks at various offsets to get a good idea of how far from the radial ideal the customer's drives were. I'm a bit surprised with the call for finding alignment disks, that this hasn't been done in the hobbyist world. After all, what most folks rehabilitating drives are interested in is radial alignment. I doubt that many know how to adjust azimuth. --Chuck --===============2070561014377335937==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 20 18:43:30 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 11:43:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0997548158158111543==" --===============0997548158158111543== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have to ask, which is tragic? Needing to lookup SA400, or the fact > > that webpage (from the Smithsonian), indicates it~@~Ys a 3 1/4~@~] > > drive. That wasn~@~Yt typo on my part they say *three*. On the Smithsonian webpage, to add to the tragedy: > Note: Comment submission is temporarily unavailable while we make > improvements to the site. We apologize for the interruption. On Sat, 20 Aug 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > field use, so it was acceptable to record tracks at various offsets to > get a good idea of how far from the radial ideal the customer's drives > were. I'm a bit surprised with the call for finding alignment disks, > that this hasn't been done in the hobbyist world. After all, what most > folks rehabilitating drives are interested in is radial alignment. I > doubt that many know how to adjust azimuth. Well, for the SA400, radial alignment is/was an issue. For the other positioning mechanisms, radial alignment was less of an issue, and azimuth and even motor speed were more common problems. --===============0997548158158111543==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 20 19:06:43 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 12:06:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2183120142417235380==" --===============2183120142417235380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 20 Aug 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > field use, so it was acceptable to record tracks at various offsets to > get a good idea of how far from the radial ideal the customer's drives > were. I'm a bit surprised with the call for finding alignment disks, > that this hasn't been done in the hobbyist world. After all, what most > folks rehabilitating drives are interested in is radial alignment. I > doubt that many know how to adjust azimuth. The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette included track(s) where SECTORS were=20 recorded progressively offset! I can visualize, and am impressed with, how you offset tracks for=20 alignment diskettes, but I'm having difficulty imagining the Dysan=20 mechanism. Large intersector gaps, and a separate pass for writing each sect= or? One sector would be aligned, one sector a little too far in, next sector a=20 little too far out, next sector further in, next sector further out, next=20 sector further in, next sector further out, next sector further in, next=20 sector further out, How far you could read, and whether your reads were mostly even numbered=20 or odd numbered, told you which direction the radial alignment was off, and a= =20 slight approximation of how much. It was hilarious here on the list decades ago, when there was a=20 participant who claimed that the copy-protection bypassing cloning program=20 that he had could duplicate alignment diskettes! ('course he also claimed=20 that FORTRAN was based on Valtrep, that he had a copy of OS/2 for PDP-11,=20 and that a 1980s machine that he had worked on was the FIRST machine that=20 ever did email) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2183120142417235380==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 20 19:12:06 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 12:11:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6439389573918976089==" --===============6439389573918976089== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> 1) because they need to keep reinforcing until the very last SA400 is >>> buried. On Sat, 20 Aug 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Fred, Don't forget the SA390 in every Disk II. ;) The first Disk II's were SA400's with the logic board removed. Once they had volume (not prototypes), Shugart started leaving off logic boards from some SA400s, to sell to Apple as SA390. --===============6439389573918976089==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Aug 20 19:49:55 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 12:49:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2433427509327650501==" --===============2433427509327650501== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/20/22 12:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette included track(s) where SECTORS > were recorded progressively offset! > I can visualize, and am impressed with, how you offset tracks for > alignment diskettes, but I'm having difficulty imagining the Dysan > mechanism.  Large intersector gaps, and a separate pass for writing each > sector? Oh, I know--I have those in 8" and 5.25" media. My point was that successive offset in tracks was good enough for government work. --Chuck --===============2433427509327650501==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 20 20:26:50 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 13:26:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1903584752054878929==" --===============1903584752054878929== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette included track(s) where SECTORS >> were recorded progressively offset! >> I can visualize, and am impressed with, how you offset tracks for >> alignment diskettes, but I'm having difficulty imagining the Dysan >> mechanism.  Large intersector gaps, and a separate pass for writing each >> sector? On Sat, 20 Aug 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Oh, I know--I have those in 8" and 5.25" media. My point was that > successive offset in tracks was good enough for government work. Oh, I am well aware that you know far more about such things than I ever did, nor ever will. I was explaining it for the youngsters on the list, who may not have ever encountered such. And, who might not even believe us about how the SA400 did head positioning! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1903584752054878929==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sat Aug 20 21:02:10 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 14:01:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4798921785263136229==" --===============4798921785263136229== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/20/22 13:26, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Oh, I am well aware that you know far more about such things than I ever > did, nor ever will. I really doubt that. On the subject of azimuth, even Micropolis didn't get it right. We started testing the new drives as they came in and about 40% had out-of-spec azimuth. Micropolis cleaned up their act shortly thereafter--OEM returns can get to be expensive. A testament to the drive quality however, is that I have two such systems using these drives and both still work flawlessly after 35 years. --Chuck --===============4798921785263136229==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 22:27:18 2022 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 22:27:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4305416791394725725==" --===============4305416791394725725== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe it is on a size reduction. Dwight ________________________________ From: geneb via cctalk Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 7:47 AM To: Liam Proven via cctalk Cc: geneb Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 23:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> >> 1) because they need to keep reinforcing until the very last SA400 is >> buried. >> Fred, Don't forget the SA390 in every Disk II. ;) > I had to look up SA400. I'm too young. > > The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3=C2=BC inch drive. > > https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-drive= :nmah_334325 > Now THAT is just tragic. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============4305416791394725725==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sat Aug 20 22:37:04 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 15:36:56 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6842838980035524330==" --===============6842838980035524330== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adkisson and Masaro now deny the whole "bar napkin disk" story; In agreement that 8" was larger than desired, they asked Dr. Au Wang "What=20 size should it be?" Wang picked up the bar napkin (the meeting was not in a conference room),=20 and said, "This size". They took the napkin back to the lab and measured it. and the Smithsonian says that SA400 was 3.25". Yes, the loss of our history is just tragic. On Sat, 20 Aug 2022, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Maybe it is on a size reduction. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: geneb via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 7:47 AM > To: Liam Proven via cctalk > Cc: geneb > Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on intern= et > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 23:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> 1) because they need to keep reinforcing until the very last SA400 is >>> buried. >>> > > Fred, Don't forget the SA390 in every Disk II. ;) > >> I had to look up SA400. I'm too young. >> >> The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3=C2=BC inch drive. >> >> https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-driv= e:nmah_334325 >> > > Now THAT is just tragic. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============6842838980035524330==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Aug 21 00:53:39 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2022 17:53:28 -0700 Message-ID: <2e261010-8da8-56a4-8cdd-9acb164cb494@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8885958446964783165==" --===============8885958446964783165== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/20/22 15:36, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Adkisson and Masaro now deny the whole "bar napkin disk" story; > In agreement that 8" was larger than desired, they asked Dr. Au Wang > "What size should it be?" > Wang picked up the bar napkin (the meeting was not in a conference > room), and said, "This size". > They took the napkin back to the lab and measured it. > > and the Smithsonian says that SA400 was 3.25". > > Yes, the loss of our history is just tragic. Sure, but the magic of the web allows us to cut history from whole cloth. After all, it's only bits. --Chuck --===============8885958446964783165==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Sun Aug 21 08:40:00 2022 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:39:50 +0200 Message-ID: <20220821083950.GB15155@tau1.ceti.pl> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5195200849585582119==" --===============5195200849585582119== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Aug 20, 2022 at 01:26:44PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > > Oh, I am well aware that you know far more about such things than I > ever did, nor ever will. > I was explaining it for the youngsters on the list, who may not have > ever encountered such. And, who might not even believe us about how > the SA400 did head positioning! Thank you, I now feel a bot more educated :-) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============5195200849585582119==-- From cclist@sydex.com Sun Aug 21 17:40:41 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:35:18 -0700 Message-ID: <71d324d8-c451-8913-5b08-e8508ed86669@sydex.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3563484808564730679==" --===============3563484808564730679== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking about it a bit more, I wonder if the standard "litany" for retrying read errors on floppies was due to the disc-and-follower of the SA400, more so than the leadscrew of the Micropolis. I doubt that there's much of a difference with the taut-band mechs. Anyway, the litany runs like this: Re-read 3 times in place. Step in one cylinder unless at high-limit (if so, skip this step), then step out one cylinder and re-read 3 times. Step out one cylinder (unless at track 0, if so, skip this step) and then step in, re-read 3 times. Do a recalibrate to track 0 seek to the subject track and re-read 3 times. The "step-in/step-out" rigamarole was supposed to compensate for any "slop" in the positioning mechanism. I can't recall where I first read about this, but it was undoubtedly from a drive manufacturer's app note. --Chuck --===============3563484808564730679==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Aug 21 17:48:36 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:48:30 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <71d324d8-c451-8913-5b08-e8508ed86669@sydex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2678227727186179336==" --===============2678227727186179336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Thinking about it a bit more, I wonder if the standard "litany" for > retrying read errors on floppies was due to the disc-and-follower of the > SA400, more so than the leadscrew of the Micropolis. I doubt that > there's much of a difference with the taut-band mechs. > > Anyway, the litany runs like this: > > Re-read 3 times in place. > Step in one cylinder unless at high-limit (if so, skip this step), then > step out one cylinder and re-read 3 times. > Step out one cylinder (unless at track 0, if so, skip this step) and > then step in, re-read 3 times. > Do a recalibrate to track 0 seek to the subject track and re-read 3 times. > > The "step-in/step-out" rigamarole was supposed to compensate for any > "slop" in the positioning mechanism. I can't recall where I first read > about this, but it was undoubtedly from a drive manufacturer's app note. Yes, that certainly sounds like a protocol to follow if you don't trust the accuracy of the head positioning. --===============2678227727186179336==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Sun Aug 21 19:07:50 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 11:59:10 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01d8b590$1a1d5e40$4e581ac0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1386684079686384080==" --===============1386684079686384080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The only person who ever promulgated the "Dr. Wang bar napkin" story was Jim Porter who was not in any way involved with the decision as to the size of the 5½ drive or media size and only began telling his tale many years after the decision. Both Massaro and Adkisson deny there was ever such a meeting in a bar with Dr. Wang. Some doubt Dr. Wang was ever in a bar with a vendor :-) My research suggests customers of Adkisson, e.g. Lanier, and not Wang Labs, asked for a smaller and less expensive drive, with media about the size of a cocktail napkin. Adkisson took this request to SA management. Wang was then their big customer for 8-inch drives. Massaro and Adkisson then did discuss this with Dr. Wang who did express a need for such a drive as a replacement; faster, more reliable and less expensive than the 8-track tape drive used by Wang Labs. It was also presented to Mohawk Data who was also interested. Shugart engineering then sized the drive based upon a survey of the size of 8 track tape drives and then sized the media as what is the largest that could reasonably fit within the drive envelope. The fact that the media size is about the size of some cocktail napkins is a coincidence. BTW as far as I can tell there is no standard size for cocktail napkins circa 1976 and the one sample I found from that era is smaller than the 5¼-inch medium envelope. The corruption of history is indeed tragic both here and at the Smithsonian - BTW, I did send their webmaster a request for correction Tom -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin(a)xenosoft.com] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 3:37 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Adkisson and Masaro now deny the whole "bar napkin disk" story; In agreement that 8" was larger than desired, they asked Dr. Au Wang "What size should it be?" Wang picked up the bar napkin (the meeting was not in a conference room), and said, "This size". They took the napkin back to the lab and measured it. and the Smithsonian says that SA400 was 3.25". Yes, the loss of our history is just tragic. On Sat, 20 Aug 2022, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Maybe it is on a size reduction. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: geneb via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 7:47 AM > To: Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Cc: geneb < geneb(a)deltasoft.com> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on > internet > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 23:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk >> < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> 1) because they need to keep reinforcing until the very last SA400 >>> is buried. >>> > > Fred, Don't forget the SA390 in every Disk II. ;) > >> I had to look up SA400. I'm too young. >> >> The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3¼ inch drive. >> >> https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk >> -drive:nmah_334325 >> > > Now THAT is just tragic. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value > database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --===============1386684079686384080==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Aug 21 19:31:07 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:30:57 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001a01d8b590$1a1d5e40$4e581ac0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0013440563159926729==" --===============0013440563159926729== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > The only person who ever promulgated the "Dr. Wang bar napkin" story was Jim > Porter who was not in any way involved with the decision as to the size of > the 5=C2=BD drive or media size and only began telling his tale many years = after > the decision. > Both Massaro and Adkisson deny there was ever such a meeting in a bar with > Dr. Wang. > Some doubt Dr. Wang was ever in a bar with a vendor :-) > My research suggests customers of Adkisson, e.g. Lanier, and not Wang Labs, > asked for a smaller and less expensive drive, with media about the size of a > cocktail napkin. > Adkisson took this request to SA management. Wang was then their big > customer for 8-inch drives. > Massaro and Adkisson then did discuss this with Dr. Wang who did express a > need for such a drive as a replacement; faster, more reliable and less > expensive than the 8-track tape drive used by Wang Labs. It was also > presented to Mohawk Data who was also interested. > Shugart engineering then sized the drive based upon a survey of the size of > 8 track tape drives and then sized the media as what is the largest that > could reasonably fit within the drive envelope. The fact that the media size > is about the size of some cocktail napkins is a coincidence. > BTW as far as I can tell there is no standard size for cocktail napkins > circa 1976 and the one sample I found from that era is smaller than the > 5=C2=BC-inch medium envelope. > The corruption of history is indeed tragic both here and at the Smithsonian > - BTW, I did send their webmaster a request for correction In http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/5.25_3.5_Flopp= y_Drive/5.25_and_3.5_Floppy_Panel.oral_history.2005.102657925.pdf Jim Porter attributes it to Jimmy Adkisson. I seriously considered getting some custom napkins printed up (bars=20 sometimes have personalized napkins; 5.25" is available, although these=20 days, bars usually use smaller, just to keep from making rings on the=20 tables), with just the outline of a 5.25" disk jacket printed on them=20 (perimeter, write enable notch, index hole, and oval access slot), and a=20 version of the story, IFF it could be confirmed on the back. If such were=20 to be made up, the gifte shoppe at CHM could probably sell alot of them. A relatively common Comdex freebie was 3.5" disk imaged rubbery coasters, But, Massaro, who should know, refutes the story. Although his version is=20 about a cardboard mockup of the DRIVE, done in the backseat of a car, NOT=20 the origin of the diskette size. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============0013440563159926729==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Aug 21 20:42:54 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 13:42:43 -0700 Message-ID: <0ML6Nr-1oQ8tY17zd-000OqL@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8786002402939617852==" --===============8786002402939617852== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I seriously considered getting some custom >napkins printed up (bars >someti= mes have personalized napkins; 5.25" is >available, although these >days, bar= s usually use smaller, just to keep from >making rings on the >tables), with = just the outline of a 5.25" disk jacket >printed on them >(perimeter, write e= nable notch, index hole, and >oval access slot), and a >version of the story,= IFF it could be confirmed on >the backFred,You should just do it and add a t= eeny tiny disclaimer at the bottom regarding the veracity of the story. It. W= ould make for a great gag gift! Or if you want to get real fancy have a qr co= de that can be scanned on each napkin for a site with more detailed discussio= n of the events.-Ali --===============8786002402939617852==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Sun Aug 21 20:58:22 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 13:58:09 -0700 Message-ID: <005d01d8b5a0$b96af920$2c40eb60$@net> In-Reply-To: <0ML6Nr-1oQ8tY17zd-000OqL@mrelay.perfora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4425363064165488184==" --===============4425363064165488184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RESENT FOR LEGIBILITY >I seriously considered getting some custom=20 >napkins printed up (bars=20 >sometimes have personalized napkins; 5.25" is=20 >available, although these=20 >days, bars usually use smaller, just to keep from=20 >making rings on the=20 >tables), with just the outline of a 5.25" disk jacket=20 >printed on them=20 >(perimeter, write enable notch, index hole, and=20 >oval access slot), and a=20 >version of the story, IFF it could be confirmed on=20 >the back Fred, You should just do it and add a teeny tiny disclaimer at the bottom regarding= the veracity of the story. It would make for a great gag gift! Or if you wan= t to get real fancy have a QR code that can be scanned on each napkin for a s= ite with more detailed discussion of the events. =20 -Ali --===============4425363064165488184==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Aug 21 21:42:37 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:42:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <005d01d8b5a0$b96af920$2c40eb60$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8000235065377589571==" --===============8000235065377589571== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Ali wrote: > You should just do it and add a teeny tiny disclaimer at the bottom > regarding the veracity of the story. It would make for a great gag gift! > Or if you want to get real fancy have a QR code that can be scanned on > each napkin for a site with more detailed discussion of the events. I used to know an elderly fellow who had a reasonably complete printshop at his house. He used to do embossed fancy invitations, envelopes, etc. But, he's dead. So, I no longer already have a printer. I don't even know whether personalized napkins are printed on existing napkins, or printed as a folio and then folded. There are some home methods, such as an oversized rubber stamp, etc. But, I think that it should be done professionally. Simplest artwork would be simply a small circle, a large oval, and a small square at the edge. But, a border around would be nice. I don't think that I will get around to doing it :-( If somebody else wants to pick up the idea, I would appreciate it if you would give me a good price to buy a dozen or so of them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============8000235065377589571==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Sun Aug 21 22:34:13 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 15:34:07 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0244204058752681930==" --===============0244204058752681930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BTW, I first heard the story in the late 1980s? My recollection was that=20 it was in a sidebar in a magazine article. I can't currently find that. Massaro's denial of it http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/5.25_3.5_Flopp= y_Drive/5.25_and_3.5_Floppy_Panel.oral_history.2005.102657925.pdf was 2006? The story was about the diskette size. Massaro's story is about the size of the DRIVE, and making a cardboard=20 mockup in the backseat of a car. Unless Adkisson comes forward, and reasserts the validity of the story,=20 then it is unlikely. --===============0244204058752681930==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Sun Aug 21 23:48:49 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 16:40:08 -0700 Message-ID: <004701d8b5b7$5a465130$0ed2f390$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0473858118291395599==" --===============0473858118291395599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin(a)xenosoft.com] >Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 12:31 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] >On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > The only person who ever promulgated the "Dr. Wang bar napkin" story > was Jim Porter who was not in any way involved with the decision as to > the size of the 5½ drive or media size and only began telling his tale > many years after the decision. > Both Massaro and Adkisson deny there was ever such a meeting in a bar > with Dr. Wang. ---- >In > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/5.25_3.5_Flop py_Drive/5.25_and_3.5_Floppy_Panel.oral_history.2005.102657925.pdf >Jim Porter attributes it to Jimmy Adkisson. If you read further on you will find that Adkisson also has disclaimed the Porter fable. FWIW, Porter apparently began promulgating the fable in 1998 at his speech to 100th Anniversary Of Magnetic Recording, Santa Clara University, Santa Clara, CA. http://web.archive.org/web/20071014221838/http://magneticdiskheritagecenter. org/100th/Progress/Porter/jimporter.htm . There is no earlier reference that I can find. I talked to the entire Shugart Associates team (including both Massaro and Adkisson) involved in the decision to do the 5¼ and its design thereafter - the Wang story is BS >But, Massaro, who should know, refutes the story. Although his version is about a cardboard mockup of the DRIVE, done in the backseat of a car, NOT the origin of the diskette size. >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com Tom --===============0473858118291395599==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Aug 22 00:39:50 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 17:39:42 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <80783478b48e442b9719119177896c3f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0672197849753930316==" --===============0672197849753930316== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 22 Aug 2022, W2HX wrote: > I always thought it was interesting how 5 1/4 is 3U (rack units). I > thought there might have been some relationship to that. But could have > been just coincidence. I think that it is related. I think that the drive (not the diskette) was apparently intended to be mountable where certain tape drives were mounted. --===============0672197849753930316==-- From chrise@pobox.com Mon Aug 22 02:27:52 2022 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 21:19:29 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2027410306133716811==" --===============2027410306133716811== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://www.foryourparty.com/cocktail-napkins -- Chris Elmquist > On Aug 21, 2022, at 4:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Ali wrote: >> You should just do it and add a teeny tiny disclaimer at the bottom regard= ing the veracity of the story. It would make for a great gag gift! Or if you = want to get real fancy have a QR code that can be scanned on each napkin for = a site with more detailed discussion of the events. >=20 > I used to know an elderly fellow who had a reasonably complete printshop at= his house. He used to do embossed fancy invitations, envelopes, etc. > But, he's dead. So, I no longer already have a printer. >=20 > I don't even know whether personalized napkins are printed on existing napk= ins, or printed as a folio and then folded. >=20 > There are some home methods, such as an oversized rubber stamp, etc. > But, I think that it should be done professionally. > Simplest artwork would be simply a small circle, a large oval, and a small = square at the edge. But, a border around would be nice. >=20 >=20 > I don't think that I will get around to doing it :-( >=20 > If somebody else wants to pick up the idea, I would appreciate it if you wo= uld give me a good price to buy a dozen or so of them. >=20 > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============2027410306133716811==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Mon Aug 22 05:30:56 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:30:26 -0700 Message-ID: <006c01d8b5e8$49a945e0$dcfbd1a0$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3674852365276727604==" --===============3674852365276727604== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, there was no “U” consideration in the FH 5¼-inch form factor decision. It is 5.75 in × 3.25 in × 8 in; none of these have integer "U" relationships. SA engineering studied the various 8-track tape drives then available and found no standard form factor so they picked a set of numbers that they thought would work for most and for the Wang application in particular. No one mentioned “U” dimensions as a consideration. I seem to recall most 8-track tape drives were mounted horizontally which would make the “U” height 3.5-inches not 3.25 inches. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin(a)xenosoft.com] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 5:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: t.gardner(a)computer.org; Tom Gardner Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] On Mon, 22 Aug 2022, W2HX wrote: > I always thought it was interesting how 5 1/4 is 3U (rack units). I > thought there might have been some relationship to that. But could > have been just coincidence. I think that it is related. I think that the drive (not the diskette) was apparently intended to be mountable where certain tape drives were mounted. --===============3674852365276727604==-- From justme123482@gmail.com Mon Aug 22 05:44:50 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PiDP-8/I Spacewar on Pi HDMI Display Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 15:42:52 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5365322402612972832==" --===============5365322402612972832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am trying to run spacewar (IF-4) on my PiDP-8/I with the video running on the PI HDMI monitor and the keyboard being my VT-220 attached via USB to RS-232 adapter. I am able run OS/8 on the VT-220. I am able to run spacewar running with the remote VC8E program on my Windows box (port 2222) I installed openvg from github I followed Oscar's directions in the read me file from here: https://groups.google.com/g/pidp-8/c/J6rXWg8btYY I did not recompile the spacewars program to use the front panel.  I want to use the keys on the VT-220 instead. How do I get SW2 to run and use the keys from the VT-220? I get OS/8 to boot with the console command in simh. Thank you,          Mike --===============5365322402612972832==-- From justme123482@gmail.com Mon Aug 22 05:44:54 2022 From: Mike Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PiDP-8/I Spacewar on Pi HDMI Display Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:58:05 -0500 Message-ID: <24bf0e7d-63fb-3fe8-7f96-8b301255b7f0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7226317560385876693==" --===============7226317560385876693== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Updated information: I have the Pi Console up and running a getty shell on the VT-220 (as 9600 baud). I start the Oscars OpenVG client with *./sw2 localhost 2222 *I have this same issue whether I am using an ssh shell or the VT-220 shell. ** The spacewars game comes up on the HDMI display and keys 1, 2, 3 & 4 work.  None of the other keys work. Original Message: /I am trying to run spacewar (IF-4) on my PiDP-8/I with the video running on the PI HDMI monitor and the keyboard being my VT-220 attached via USB to RS-232 adapter.// // //I am able run OS/8 on the VT-220.// // //I am able to run spacewar running with the remote VC8E program on my Windows box (port 2222)// // //I installed openvg from github// // //I followed Oscar's directions in the read me file from here: https://groups.google.com/g/pidp-8/c/J6rXWg8btYY// // //I did not recompile the spacewars program to use the front panel.  I want to use the keys on the VT-220 instead.// // //How do I get SW2 to run and use the keys from the VT-220?// // //I get OS/8 to boot with the console command in simh.// // //Thank you,// // //         Mike// // // / --===============7226317560385876693==-- From w2hx@w2hx.com Mon Aug 22 05:44:58 2022 From: W2HX To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:35:07 +0000 Message-ID: <80783478b48e442b9719119177896c3f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> In-Reply-To: <004701d8b5b7$5a465130$0ed2f390$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4043556480720185059==" --===============4043556480720185059== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always thought it was interesting how 5 1/4 is 3U (rack units). I thought t= here might have been some relationship to that. But could have been just coin= cidence. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/= videos -----Original Message----- From: Tom Gardner via cctalk =20 Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 7:40 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' ; cisin(a)xenosoft.com Cc: Tom Gardner Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedic= ated Micropolis webpage on internet] >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin(a)xenosoft.com]=20 >Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 12:31 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] =20 >On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > The only person who ever promulgated the "Dr. Wang bar napkin" story=20 > was Jim Porter who was not in any way involved with the decision as to=20 > the size of the 5=C2=BD drive or media size and only began telling his tale= =20 > many years after the decision. > Both Massaro and Adkisson deny there was ever such a meeting in a bar=20 > with Dr. Wang. ---- >In > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/5.25_3.5_Flop py_Drive/5.25_and_3.5_Floppy_Panel.oral_history.2005.102657925.pdf >Jim Porter attributes it to Jimmy Adkisson. =20 If you read further on you will find that Adkisson also has disclaimed the Porter fable.=20 =20 FWIW, Porter apparently began promulgating the fable in 1998 at his speech to 100th Anniversary Of Magnetic Recording, Santa Clara University, Santa Clara, CA.=20 http://web.archive.org/web/20071014221838/http://magneticdiskheritagecenter. org/100th/Progress/Porter/jimporter.htm .=20 There is no earlier reference that I can find.=20 =20 I talked to the entire Shugart Associates team (including both Massaro and Adkisson) involved in the decision to do the 5=C2=BC and its design thereafte= r - the Wang story is BS =20 =20 =20 >But, Massaro, who should know, refutes the story. Although his version is about a cardboard mockup of the DRIVE, done in the backseat of a car, NOT the origin of the diskette size. >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com =20 Tom --===============4043556480720185059==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Mon Aug 22 06:14:53 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:06:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000701d8b5ed$466fd380$d34f7a80$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3185575489786683958==" --===============3185575489786683958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred: Please quote the current version of the oral history, It says: Porter: Jimmy said that you guys got together with the guys at Wang in a dark bar one night and, after a discussion, you decided on the size of what the smaller diskette should be and there was a cocktail napkin on the bar which was 5 1/4" square napkin . That's Jimmy's story. [Ed. note: Contacted in 2009, both Adkisson and Massaro stated that there was never any such meeting in a bar with Dr. Wang] 5.25 and 3.5 Floppy Disk Oral History Panel (computerhistory.org) at page 10 Will you now stop promulgating this fable? Tom -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin(a)xenosoft.com] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 3:34 PM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] BTW, I first heard the story in the late 1980s? My recollection was that it was in a sidebar in a magazine article. I can't currently find that. Massaro's denial of it http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/5.25_3.5_Flop py_Drive/5.25_and_3.5_Floppy_Panel.oral_history.2005.102657925.pdf was 2006? The story was about the diskette size. Massaro's story is about the size of the DRIVE, and making a cardboard mockup in the backseat of a car. Unless Adkisson comes forward, and reasserts the validity of the story, then it is unlikely. --===============3185575489786683958==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Aug 22 06:32:34 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:32:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000701d8b5ed$466fd380$d34f7a80$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3459663808978185824==" --===============3459663808978185824== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Tom Gardner wrote: > Fred: > Please quote the current version of the oral history, > It says: > Porter: Jimmy said that you guys got together with the guys at Wang in a > dark bar one night and, after a > discussion, you decided on the size of what the smaller diskette should be > and there was a cocktail napkin > on the bar which was 5 1/4" square napkin . That's > Jimmy's story. > [Ed. note: Contacted in 2009, both Adkisson and Massaro stated that there > was never any such meeting > in a bar with Dr. Wang] > 5.25 and 3.5 Floppy Disk Oral History Panel (computerhistory.org) > -05-01-acc.pdf> at page 10 > Will you now stop promulgating this fable? Yes. Knowing that BOTH deny it shows that it is an apocryphal tale. I was, indeed, looking at an older version (2005) When I had only heard of Massaro's refutation, I was wondering whether Adkisson agreed. Now, it is clear. Thank you. --===============3459663808978185824==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Aug 22 13:13:53 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:13:43 -0400 Message-ID: <7DAA8B47-4BAB-4439-9B8D-C5829DA0942F@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <80783478b48e442b9719119177896c3f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0109215362544649893==" --===============0109215362544649893== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 21, 2022, at 8:35 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrot= e: >=20 > I always thought it was interesting how 5 1/4 is 3U (rack units). I thought= there might have been some relationship to that. But could have been just co= incidence. For floppies, likely yes. That fact did get used later on, in storage arrays= where you can line up 14 or so disk drives, standing on edge, in a 3U 19 inc= h rack mounted system. paul --===============0109215362544649893==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Aug 22 15:23:22 2022 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 11:22:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6508319166563290453==" --===============6508319166563290453== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Aug 22, 2022, at 11:17 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Aug 22, 2022 at 7:13 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Aug 21, 2022, at 8:35 PM, W2HX via cctalk wr= ote: > >=20 > > I always thought it was interesting how 5 1/4 is 3U (rack units). I thoug= ht there might have been some relationship to that. But could have been just = coincidence. >=20 > For floppies, likely yes. That fact did get used later on, in storage arra= ys where you can line up 14 or so disk drives, standing on edge, in a 3U 19 i= nch rack mounted system. >=20 > I thought the initial 5.25" Hard Disks had ISSUES[tm] operating on edge. I = remember the RD50 (5MB in all its glory) being touted as also operating on ed= ge for the desk-side cases for DEC Rainbows and Professionals (and later Mirc= oPDP-11s). Could be. The examples I was thinking about are from 2001, using 1/2 height = SATA drives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EqualLogic#/media/File:EqualLogic_= PS100E_PeerStorage_Array_(157832701).jpg paul --===============6508319166563290453==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Mon Aug 22 15:24:25 2022 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:17:08 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7DAA8B47-4BAB-4439-9B8D-C5829DA0942F@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4554015789673799892==" --===============4554015789673799892== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Aug 22, 2022 at 7:13 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 21, 2022, at 8:35 PM, W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I always thought it was interesting how 5 1/4 is 3U (rack units). I > thought there might have been some relationship to that. But could have > been just coincidence. > > For floppies, likely yes. That fact did get used later on, in storage > arrays where you can line up 14 or so disk drives, standing on edge, in a > 3U 19 inch rack mounted system. > I thought the initial 5.25" Hard Disks had ISSUES[tm] operating on edge. I remember the RD50 (5MB in all its glory) being touted as also operating on edge for the desk-side cases for DEC Rainbows and Professionals (and later MircoPDP-11s). Warner --===============4554015789673799892==-- From fozztexx@fozztexx.com Mon Aug 22 15:50:27 2022 From: Chris Osborn To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Does anyone have MP/M II disks/images for the Altos ACS-8000? Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 08:36:33 -0700 Message-ID: <36CD56CE-5924-49C7-B51E-323056E307CA@fozztexx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1377732826459985089==" --===============1377732826459985089== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just got my Altos ACS-8000 hard disk controller repaired yesterday and was = able to connect the Gesswein MFM emulator and format it, run through the read= /write tests, and copy some files onto it. Now I'd like to install MP/M II, b= ut it seems there's no archive sites anywhere that have copies of MP/M II for= the Altos with the 8500 board. I found a single zip file which has a smatter= ing of some of the files that were on the two Altos MP/M II distribution disk= s, but doesn't have the OS tracks, and of course all the XIOS files are missi= ng. I'm going to see if I can find another way to get MP/M II, such as working fr= om the generic version and making my own XIOS (using the Altos listing in the= MP/M II manual as reference), or seeing if the MP/M II for the Altos 5 serie= s might be usable with minor modification. But it would be nice to get a copy= of the original distribution disks. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com RetroBattlestations.com --===============1377732826459985089==-- From tom94022@comcast.net Mon Aug 22 16:25:12 2022 From: Tom Gardner To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:24:32 -0700 Message-ID: <003501d8b643$b066f0b0$1134d210$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4977053471138929042==" --===============4977053471138929042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's one of the "features" of the CHM oral history archives, they keep older versions on line on "scholarly" principles. I've suggest they keep only the current version on line and include a change log to no avail Tom -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin(a)xenosoft.com] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 11:32 PM To: t.gardner(a)computer.org Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Tom Gardner wrote: > Fred: > Please quote the current version of the oral history, It says: > Porter: Jimmy said that you guys got together with the guys at Wang in > a dark bar one night and, after a discussion, you decided on the size > of what the smaller diskette should be and there was a cocktail napkin > on the bar which was 5 1/4" square napkin . > That's Jimmy's story. > [Ed. note: Contacted in 2009, both Adkisson and Massaro stated that > there was never any such meeting in a bar with Dr. Wang] > 5.25 and 3.5 Floppy Disk Oral History Panel (computerhistory.org) > 657925 > -05-01-acc.pdf> at page 10 > Will you now stop promulgating this fable? Yes. Knowing that BOTH deny it shows that it is an apocryphal tale. I was, indeed, looking at an older version (2005) When I had only heard of Massaro's refutation, I was wondering whether Adkisson agreed. Now, it is clear. Thank you. --===============4977053471138929042==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Mon Aug 22 18:33:48 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 11:33:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003501d8b643$b066f0b0$1134d210$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6500493144578966227==" --===============6500493144578966227== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OR, keep them all available, but include a mention and link to newest, or at least next, or precede each with a small visible meta-data block with date and links. If it's too cumbersome to edit every one when a new one is put up, having a mention/link to the next one would at least provide a linked list. I was unaware that I was not looking at the current one. (and was confused by your statements that Adkisson had recanted, which was definitely not present in the one that I was looking at.) Feel free to use my error as an example in your campaign to improve the organization. On Mon, 22 Aug 2022, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > That's one of the "features" of the CHM oral history archives, they keep > older versions on line on "scholarly" principles. > I've suggest they keep only the current version on line and include a change > log to no avail > Tom > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin(a)xenosoft.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 11:32 PM > To: t.gardner(a)computer.org > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Wang bar napkin story [WAS:RE: Re: "Revival" of a > dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet] > > On Sun, 21 Aug 2022, Tom Gardner wrote: >> Fred: >> Please quote the current version of the oral history, It says: >> Porter: Jimmy said that you guys got together with the guys at Wang in >> a dark bar one night and, after a discussion, you decided on the size >> of what the smaller diskette should be and there was a cocktail napkin >> on the bar which was 5 1/4" square napkin . >> That's Jimmy's story. >> [Ed. note: Contacted in 2009, both Adkisson and Massaro stated that >> there was never any such meeting in a bar with Dr. Wang] >> 5.25 and 3.5 Floppy Disk Oral History Panel (computerhistory.org) >> > 657925 >> -05-01-acc.pdf> at page 10 >> Will you now stop promulgating this fable? > > Yes. Knowing that BOTH deny it shows that it is an apocryphal tale. > I was, indeed, looking at an older version (2005) When I had only heard of > Massaro's refutation, I was wondering whether Adkisson agreed. Now, it is > clear. > Thank you. --===============6500493144578966227==-- From wrm@dW.co.za Wed Aug 24 12:42:23 2022 From: Wouter de Waal To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] UK members: Mushroom Components Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 14:35:28 +0200 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20220824143339.0f255c58@mail.dW.co.za> In-Reply-To: <166101280463.2127582.14333119382916825619@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2344246253013536750==" --===============2344246253013536750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have before obtained obsolete 8-bit chips from Paul at mushroom.co.uk. But now my emails are not answered and their phone also doesn't seem to work. Does anyone know what happened and whether they're still around, or whether someone else took over their stock? Thanks W --===============2344246253013536750==-- From stephen.m.pereira.sr@gmail.com Wed Aug 24 16:51:27 2022 From: Stephen Pereira To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] HP-86 system available Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 12:51:19 -0400 Message-ID: <4E2CEF86-B002-42AF-BCEC-C2A34379F50C@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1380798300867814533==" --===============1380798300867814533== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good afternoon folks, I have an HP-86 system that I am not using, and I would like to sell to someo= ne who will put it to good use. The system is made up of: - HP-86B - HP-9121 Dual 3.5=E2=80=9D floppy disk drive - HP-82900A Auxiliary Processor (CP/M System) with the proper boot disk - the new HP85Disk for virtual disk drives if you don=E2=80=99t want to use r= eal floppies, or to use along with real floppies - HP-82929 Programmable ROM Module - An 87-EMS ROM, never installed - HP-82936A ROM Drawer, with a few HP-85 ROMs in it Sorry, but I will be keeping my CRT monitor. To be sure, I invested a pile of $$ into this over the years, but as I said, = I=E2=80=99m just not using it any more, and I hate to see this good stuff goi= ng unused. I=E2=80=99d like to get $400 for the whole kit-and-kaboodle. I= =E2=80=99d also like to work with someone who can pick it up, or we can meet = half way in between. I=E2=80=99d really prefer not to go through all the exp= ense and hassle of shipping. Please let me know if you=E2=80=99re interested and whatever questions you ma= y have. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE --===============1380798300867814533==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 25 21:45:34 2022 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 14:45:28 -0700 Message-ID: <012701d8b8cb$fe8ff9f0$fbafedd0$@net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8562331734749913637==" --===============8562331734749913637== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > A testament to the drive quality however, is that I have two such > systems using these drives and both still work flawlessly after 35 > years. Chuck, Out of curiosity what is the model number of the Micropolis drives? I would l= ike to find a picture of them on the net if possible and see this precision-g= round lead screw mechanism. Thanks. -Ali --===============8562331734749913637==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 25 22:41:46 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:41:38 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <012701d8b8cb$fe8ff9f0$fbafedd0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3061295235997657870==" --===============3061295235997657870== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 25 Aug 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Out of curiosity what is the model number of the Micropolis drives? I=20 > would like to find a picture of them on the net if possible and see this=20 > precision-ground lead screw mechanism. Thanks. I'm not Chuck, and I don't have a picture handy. The pictures on pages 26 and 72 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/micropolis/102001A_Micropolis_1015_1016_Maintena= nce_Manual_Dec79.pdf aren't clear, but the ones on pages 90, 94, and 96 are marginally OK But, you should be aware that the first two primary models were a 48tpi=20 Single sided, with only 35 tracks (NOT 40) (competing directly opposite=20 the SA400) And, a 100tpi (NOT 96tpi) single-sided with 77 tracks (NOT 80). Truly excellent drives, BUT, very slow. Pc-DOS 2.10 MIGHT be slow enough=20 for it (PC-DOS 2.10 had slowed down track to track stepping to work with=20 the Qumetrak 142 (which was NOT an excellent drive)). for almost everything, you would want either double sided 48tpi with 40=20 tracks ("360K"), or double sided 96tpi "high density" (for 1.2M). or double sided 96tpi 80 track (for most "quad density" systems), They made such, but I never had any other than the 35 and 77 track single=20 sided ones. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============3061295235997657870==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 25 22:48:29 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:48:23 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4732138855175900451==" --===============4732138855175900451== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > for almost everything, you would want either double sided 48tpi with 40 > tracks ("360K"), > or double sided 96tpi "high density" (for 1.2M). > or double sided 96tpi 80 track (for most "quad density" systems), > They made such, but I never had any other than the 35 and 77 track single > sided ones. should be: > for almost everything, you would want either double sided 48tpi with 40 > tracks ("360K"), > or double sided 96tpi 80 track (for most "quad density" systems), > They made such, but I never had any other than the 35 and 77 track single > sided ones. > or double sided 96tpi "high density" (for 1.2M). I don't think that they were around for "1.2M". Which is a little surprising, . . . The first "high density" 5.25" drive that I had, and got at a swap meet, was a Mitsubishi, that looked like a prototype, and had a 50 pin header for interface cable, seemingly intended to serve as a replacement for an 8" drive. --===============4732138855175900451==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Aug 25 23:12:39 2022 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 16:12:32 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3081599915025853118==" --===============3081599915025853118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I had to look up SA400. I'm too young. > The Smithsonian has one. They say it's a 3=C2=BC inch drive. > https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-drive= :nmah_334325 > *Sigh* Tom Gardner has successfully gotten https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_334322 and https://www.si.edu/object/microcomputer-peripheral-shugart-sa400-disk-drive:n= mah_334325 corrected to 5.25"! --===============3081599915025853118==-- From cclist@sydex.com Thu Aug 25 23:41:14 2022 From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: "Revival" of a dedicated Micropolis webpage on internet Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 16:35:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <012701d8b8cb$fe8ff9f0$fbafedd0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3495374805470827351==" --===============3495374805470827351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/25/22 14:45, Ali wrote: >> A testament to the drive quality however, is that I have two such >> systems using these drives and both still work flawlessly after 35 >> years. > A quick glance at my spares shelf show a couple of 1016-II (SS 100 tpi, black latch) I've used the 1015 drives also (blue latch). But if you're looking to overcome the slowness of the stepper/leadscrew, get an 1115 (in whatever version you're looking for)--I happen to have a 96tpi DS unit here It features a microcontroller implementing buffered seek. (See bitsavers for detail). I think it was Micropolis' last hurrah in floppy drives. --Chuck --===============3495374805470827351==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Aug 26 13:19:12 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] TU58 troubleshooting Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2022 09:19:03 -0400 Message-ID: <9f124812-afcc-7bfe-6ccb-fba0a5f38257@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0142226717809001923==" --===============0142226717809001923== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So I'm working on repairing a TU58 Dectape II drive. So far I have cleaned it up, replaced the rollers, put new bands in some TU58 carts, and have fixed the power supply so +5 and +12 are up and running. Turning on the unit with nothing in it results in a quick flash of light from the LED on the main board. Hooking it up to an 11/23+ and trying to boot off it gives me ERR 12 NON-EXISTENT CONTROLLER Drat. It's connected to the 11/23+ with a normal 10 pin ribbon cable with keys at both ends. So questions: Baud rates are wired in at 9600/9600 on both the unit and the CPU. 1) Is the quick flash on the inside LED normal when powered up 2) Does it require something more than a simple ribbon cable to connect to the CPU? 3) Should the unit do something else with a tape in and powered on? Thanks! Chris --===============0142226717809001923==-- From g-wright@att.net Sun Aug 28 17:53:35 2022 From: Jerry Wright To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Shop cleaning, few items that needs a new home Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 17:52:25 +0000 Message-ID: <697443344.490949.1661709145354@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <697443344.490949.1661709145354.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3783331511437817001==" --===============3783331511437817001== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a few=C2=A0 systems that need to go. Phase IV=C2=A0 systems. comes in 3=C2=A0 Chassis=C2=A0 Enclosures.=C2=A0 lots= of=C2=A0 blinking lights and switches .these are a little odd, they have the= video memory for the terminals on the computer itself.There are no disks, te= rminals or tape drivers. has not been turned on. Free to a good home. =C2=A0 Dec=C2=A0 Writer II=C2=A0=C2=A0 very good condition, very little yellowing.= =C2=A0 Works =C2=A0=C2=A0 300.00 Dec Writer III=C2=A0 also in very good condition with very little Yellowing= =C2=A0 Works 300.00 HP 85=C2=A0 in original box, some manuals and tapes.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Has a rom dr= awer with basic IO rom16 Meg Memory drawer. 2 Tapes, Visicalc and Standard=C2= =A0 Pac ??=C2=A0=C2=A0 Original manuals for=20 The 85 and Visicalc.=C2=A0 Looks almost new with no fading.=C2=A0 Box is Ok b= ut wont handle=20 shipping.=C2=A0 Has not been turned on in years.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 500.= 00 Dec=C2=A0 Application Dec 400XP=C2=A0 Tower PC server.=C2=A0 This is a Desk s= ide PC Server with=C2=A0=20 Interactive Unix unlimited on it.=C2=A0 Has=C2=A0 4 Dec SCSI drives. Tape Dri= ve,=C2=A0 Second SCSI cardand Satellite=C2=A0 interface. Is missing the side = Panel.=C2=A0 Has not been run in a few years.=C2=A0=20 comes with a spare=C2=A0 drives and some boards.=C2=A0 Intel 486 DX 50.=C2=A0= 100.00 HP 9000 380=C2=A0 System.=C2=A0 This was a donation from HP to a local Colleg= e.=C2=A0 Comes in 4 Desk=20 side Chassis.=C2=A0 2 hold Large Hard drives. There is a SCSI=C2=A0 Disk encl= osure with drives.=C2=A0 This=C2=A0was most likely the best they had in=C2=A0= the day.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Was holding what looked like a complete=20 working HPUX system.=C2=A0 Email, Gofer where all intact. .=C2=A0 Condition i= s=C2=A0 very good.=C2=A0 Has not been=20 turned on in a few years.=C2=A0 Was backed up to 4mm tape at one point.=C2=A0= 1000.00 Motorola Development system.=C2=A0 68k=C2=A0=C2=A0 Was told it was a complete= system. comes in 2 large=C2=A0boxes.=C2=A0 Don't know much about this,=C2=A0= does have Pods and a large Computer type interfaceHas not been turned on.=C2= =A0 100.00 HP 7070E=C2=A0 Tape drive.=C2=A0 still loads a tape, but has not been tested = further.=C2=A0 Good conditionThis is a large floor standing tape drive with H= PIB interface.=C2=A0=C2=A0 300.00=20 I also have=C2=A0 a large Tandy/Radio Shack Collection=C2=A0 that needs thinn= ing. Most models. Alongwith=C2=A0 14=C2=A0 Kaypros=C2=A0 Most models. These are located in Kent, Washington.=C2=A0 No Shipping unless you want to a= rrange it. I canhaul it locally .=C2=A0=20 - Jerryg-wright(a)att.net --===============3783331511437817001==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sun Aug 28 21:10:48 2022 From: Chris Zach To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Bringing up a Sun 386i: Can I use a modern monitor Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 17:10:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6522308085552582570==" --===============6522308085552582570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Continuing my exploration of my old stuff pile I'm starting to work on my Sun 386i systems. Old, no doubt but still there. First step would be finding a monitor for them. The video cards I have are the monochrome one, the CGI3 and a CGI5 board. For the color monitors the cable I have goes to the RGBSync and of course to the keyboard/mouse combination. Question: Is there an adapter that can turn the Sun's output to HDMI or VGA for a more modern monitor? C --===============6522308085552582570==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Mon Aug 29 10:26:28 2022 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Advice on Repairing a HP1630G Logic Analyser Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2022 11:26:06 +0100 Message-ID: <022e01d8bb91$bfee7f00$3fcb7d00$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8997793034802032638==" --===============8997793034802032638== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a nice HP1630G logic analyser. It still works OK but has a number of issues that I would like to fix. First, I managed to break the power switch. It became stiff and wouldn't readily toggle the power. I think the shaft became bent. In pressing too hard, I broke off the button on the end of the shaft. Looking at it, I think the button may have been glued onto the end of the shaft, possibly in a previous repair. There are some sites that list the button as available so I am trying to source an original, but I think it could be just the button and not the shaft that goes with it. However, if that proves impractical or too expensive, I am wondering if it is possible to source a new switch, with a long shaft to reach the switch on the board, that would at least allow me to toggle power from the front panel? I am not sure what to search for though, any suggestions? I have several possible workarounds: 1) just leave the switch on permanently and "toggle" the power just by plugging into the mains 2) try to glue the button back on, possibly with a metal pin for strength, but I think there is a bend in the shaft that caused the action not to work well and so this may not work well 3) Raid a spare from a HP1630D that I also have. 4) try to make a new shaft and switch, possibly 3D printed, or just use a piece of wooden dowelling. Any comments on these approaches? The other problem I have is that I get terrible switch bounce from the front panel keyboard. I have removed the keyboard to see if I can get at the switches and see if cleaning them would help. However, the keys (made by Cherry) look like sealed units to me. Again, does anyone have any advice on how to improve the performance of these switches? I could again raid my HP1630D for a spare (which has a keyboard that isn't as bad), but would rather not have to do so. Finally, I get a bit of screen wobble on the display. I am going to check all the capacitors on the display board, but any other suggestions? Pictures of the broken switch and the keyboard are here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgETuZFainX8gZNMqek10fyE3n1rlw?e=xd7RWU Regards Rob --===============8997793034802032638==-- From robert.jarratt@ntlworld.com Mon Aug 29 10:38:56 2022 From: Rob Jarratt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Advice on Repairing a HP1630G Logic Analyser Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2022 11:38:46 +0100 Message-ID: <023701d8bb93$84c577b0$8e506710$@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <022e01d8bb91$bfee7f00$3fcb7d00$@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0334353489550057678==" --===============0334353489550057678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just worked out how to dismantle the keycaps, although still wondering if cleaning them will actually help? > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Sent: 29 August 2022 11:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: Rob Jarratt > Subject: [cctalk] Advice on Repairing a HP1630G Logic Analyser > > I have a nice HP1630G logic analyser. It still works OK but has a number of > issues that I would like to fix. > > > > First, I managed to break the power switch. It became stiff and wouldn't > readily toggle the power. I think the shaft became bent. In pressing too hard, > I broke off the button on the end of the shaft. Looking at it, I think the > button may have been glued onto the end of the shaft, possibly in a previous > repair. There are some sites that list the button as available so I am trying to > source an original, but I think it could be just the button and not the shaft > that goes with it. However, if that proves impractical or too expensive, I am > wondering if it is possible to source a new switch, with a long shaft to reach > the switch on the board, that would at least allow me to toggle power from > the front panel? I am not sure what to search for though, any suggestions? I > have several possible workarounds: 1) just leave the switch on permanently > and "toggle" the power just by plugging into the mains > 2) try to glue the button back on, possibly with a metal pin for strength, but I > think there is a bend in the shaft that caused the action not to work well and > so this may not work well 3) Raid a spare from a HP1630D that I also have. 4) > try to make a new shaft and switch, possibly 3D printed, or just use a piece of > wooden dowelling. Any comments on these approaches? > > > > The other problem I have is that I get terrible switch bounce from the front > panel keyboard. I have removed the keyboard to see if I can get at the > switches and see if cleaning them would help. However, the keys (made by > Cherry) look like sealed units to me. Again, does anyone have any advice on > how to improve the performance of these switches? I could again raid my > HP1630D for a spare (which has a keyboard that isn't as bad), but would > rather not have to do so. > > > > Finally, I get a bit of screen wobble on the display. I am going to check all the > capacitors on the display board, but any other suggestions? > > > > Pictures of the broken switch and the keyboard are here: > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgETuZFainX8gZNMqek10fyE3n1rlw?e=xd7RWU > > > > Regards > > > > Rob --===============0334353489550057678==-- From roycetaft@gmail.com Mon Aug 29 12:07:29 2022 From: Royce Taft To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Shop cleaning, few items that needs a new home Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2022 12:07:22 +0000 Message-ID: <166177484276.2127592.5455687508958419965@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <697443344.490949.1661709145354@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6393521256951800872==" --===============6393521256951800872== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jerry, I=E2=80=99m interested in the Motorola 68000 development system. Do you have = any documentation or a model number? I would like to find some info online an= d learn more about it.=20 I have an HP 64000 Emulation system configured to emulate (and develop softwa= re for) the Motorola 6809 which I got working perfectly. I=E2=80=99d love to = have another development system but for the 68K. As far as you can tell, is it a stand alone system or does it interface with = a PC? Thank you, Royce --===============6393521256951800872==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Mon Aug 29 20:49:32 2022 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC H7868 Power Supplies Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2022 16:40:54 -0400 Message-ID: <7bca9493-d1f6-3106-438b-1c45694e87aa@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8948766949169704705==" --===============8948766949169704705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While cleaning up I found a box with 3 H7868 power supplies. Once upon a time I had a BA213 and BA215 Vax. One of them has a cable coming out the top of it and probably went to the BA213 box which had only one power supply. The other two are plain and likely are from a BA215 box. I assume they are not working and if you want one or all I will ship if you pay postage. I am located in Zip 20640, shipping out of the US seems not worth the trouble. Doug --===============8948766949169704705==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Mon Aug 29 21:35:22 2022 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC H7868 Power Supplies Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2022 22:11:26 +0100 Message-ID: <4a98ea12-ffa5-03b0-506a-fe8ad7deffbc@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: <7bca9493-d1f6-3106-438b-1c45694e87aa@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0799677935401889425==" --===============0799677935401889425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 29/08/2022 21:40, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > While cleaning up I found a box with 3 H7868 power supplies. Once upon > a time I had a BA213 and BA215 Vax. > > One of them has a cable coming out the top of it and probably went to > the BA213 box which had only one power supply. > > The other two are plain and likely are from a BA215 box. > > I assume they are not working and if you want one or all I will ship > if you pay postage. > > I am located in Zip 20640, shipping out of the US seems not worth the > trouble. > It's worth noting that I think that the H7868-*A* is 115/120V and the H7868-*B* is 220/240V and they are not auto-ranging. So shipping outside the US (at least to the UK, but probably other places too) is not worth the trouble for another reason too. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============0799677935401889425==-- From dj.taylor4@comcast.net Tue Aug 30 15:40:34 2022 From: Douglas Taylor To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC H7868 Power Supplies Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 11:40:21 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4a98ea12-ffa5-03b0-506a-fe8ad7deffbc@ntlworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5291779997058844369==" --===============5291779997058844369== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/29/2022 5:11 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 29/08/2022 21:40, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> While cleaning up I found a box with 3 H7868 power supplies. Once >> upon a time I had a BA213 and BA215 Vax. >> >> One of them has a cable coming out the top of it and probably went to >> the BA213 box which had only one power supply. >> >> The other two are plain and likely are from a BA215 box. >> >> I assume they are not working and if you want one or all I will ship >> if you pay postage. >> >> I am located in Zip 20640, shipping out of the US seems not worth the >> trouble. >> > It's worth noting that I think that the H7868-*A* is 115/120V and the > H7868-*B* is 220/240V and they are not auto-ranging. So shipping > outside the US (at least to the UK, but probably other places too) is > not worth the trouble for another reason too. > > > Antonio > > The details are : H7868-A Rev E03 - this one has the power leads for disk drives coming out of it.  Those DEC 5 pin types, 3 in all.  Plus one 8 pin connector. H7868-A Rev D01 H7868-A Rev F04 All are listed as 120V --===============5291779997058844369==-- From m_s_glaser@hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 08:04:56 2022 From: Michael Glaser To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Shop cleaning, few items that needs a new home Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 05:50:46 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5039962657433819746==" --===============5039962657433819746== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm in Kent and I'm interested in the Tandy and Kaypro stuff. Looking for a C= oco 3 but let me know what you have. Thanks, Michael Gee. --===============5039962657433819746==-- From kv4cn@suddenlink.net Wed Aug 31 18:12:42 2022 From: KV4CN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP-8/a components - free to good home Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:49:11 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8526127416613742294==" --===============8526127416613742294== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have the following PDP-8/a components.I do not know their operating condition so they are being offered as is.I have had them for several years, but I do not have the time to see if I can get a system running.I would like to give them away as a lot and do not want to ship.I can send photos on request.I live in Winterville, North Carolina (eastern part of the state).Thanks, Dave _PDP-8/a chassis with the following boards__:_ (a) Hex Omnibus CPU M8315, (b) 8/A Internal Option MD317(?), (c) Option Board 1 M8316, (d) Data Ram DR-118A 8Kx12, and (e) Core Memory Stack H-219A.  Chassis has the power supply.with G8018 regulator board. _Loose parts and boards:_ DEC Console Panel 00KC8-AA, 2 DEC console panels with limited function board, DEC H-219A, M8316 (has label that says may be defective), Dataram DR-118A, and M8316/M340566. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com --===============8526127416613742294==-- From kv4cn@suddenlink.net Wed Aug 31 19:40:23 2022 From: KV4CN To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Spoken For - PDP-8/a components - free to good home Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 15:40:10 -0400 Message-ID: <732f9ea4-6cba-c882-e0b7-bc679133705a@suddenlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7876002297730293881==" --===============7876002297730293881== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks everyone for the interest.  (Wish I had more.) The lot has been spoken for.  If it all falls through, I'll re-post. Everyone, thanks again. Dave -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com --===============7876002297730293881==-- From lproven@gmail.com Thu Sep 1 08:10:47 2022 From: Liam Proven To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Flipping an 8" diskette Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 22:33:41 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1110150066078414868==" --===============1110150066078414868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in their garage. Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. Was that even possible on 8" disks? (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and cheapest media.) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 --===============1110150066078414868==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Mon Feb 13 08:46:24 2023 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] TRS 80 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 21:13:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1907071309031241284==" --===============1907071309031241284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 45 years for the TRS-80. My! Where has the time gone? The “Trash-80” was one of the earliest micro-computers in my home. Radio Shack helped create the ‘PC’ industry, the consumer version anyways, fueling what is now our hobby. Happy computing. Murray 🙂 --===============1907071309031241284==--