From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 02:23:26 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 03:23:26 -0500 Subject: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <121301d82d45$a0189ab0$e049d010$@gmail.com> Chris: The traditional DEC racks/cabinets are either full-height ("standard" = H960) and part-height ("short" = H967) 19" racks. These are welded steel frames built for computer-room type environments. When DEC started selling into office environments (think data processing / business operations) they designed a new line of cabinetry that was intended to fit into an office where sight-lines are important and the desire was to look/work more like other types of office equipment. The PDP-11/60 was I think an early example of the redesigned cabinets -- really a double-wide plus a bit, but of more modest height (roughly that of the H967). After that you see single-width cabinets holding just 18U like the one that you have -- capable of holding a complete, but modest, system. These newer-style cabinets/racks are riveted, rather than welded. Emphasis was on style, cost-effectiveness, and RF shielding given the need to operate near other types of office equipment. Here's a good overview: http://vtda.org/docs/computing/DEC/Catalogs/EA21388-75_CabinetAccessoriesSup pliesCatalog1981.pdf On the left side of page 8-of-16 you'll see a description of the 40" Medium Systems Series, including diagrams and pictures of the "top-loader" (H9642-AD) and "front-loader" (H9642-CA) designs. There isn't any "mod-kit" to go from one to the other. It would be possible to get a functional top-loader out of a front-loader with some metal reworking. Basically, remove the lid and then (in effect) move the cross-pieces down 6U and add what amount to four gusset plates for lateral bracing. In the H9642-AD photo you can see the plates on the rear cross-piece. The front is similar, but sensitive to ensuring that the center 6U isn't significantly occluded; the front cross-piece may require some modification. There are a few other changes but moving the cross-pieces down are the key. Notice the H9544 CA Trim Kit, RL01/RL02 -- these are plastic pieces that bridge the gap between the HDD cover and the cabinet side-panels; nice to have but they're mostly there for style. If you decide to attempt (or simply want to gauge the complexity of) a conversion I can see about getting some close-up photos of the various components and connections. A conversion would not be a simple task. While the brochure speaks of "purchase as component kits" and the table simply states "Basic Frame Kit", it's not the *same* frame kit for -AD and -CA, and I suspect that "kit" in this case was not an IKEA flat-box of parts but rather a factory-assembled frame to which one added other components as appropriate for the intended use. These frames are _seriously_ riveted. Notice that H9542-AD is distinct from the H9542-CA "component kit". (Note that the TU80 -- http://gunkies.org/w/images/5/52/Tu80.jpg -- is basically a H9642-AD "top-loader" with a hinged lid and special-purpose 13U front.) -----Original Message----- From: Chris Elmquist Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 2:08 PM To: pbirkel at gmail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet On Saturday (02/26/2022 at 03:21PM -0500), pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote: > A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this: > http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg The "DECDatasystem" > front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the > upper portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours has). > Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight > and fiddly any place but the top-spot. Is there a (hand-)book that describes the DEC cabinets and in particular this "top-mount corporate cabinet"? Is there a BA # for this cabinet? I have an 11/34 in said cabinet but it is missing this 1U strengthener although I do have the 1U front-bar. I had to jigger a means to hold the front-bar in place and have been unable to understand how it would correctly attach to the rack and the strengthener, probably because I don't have the strengthener! Any part numbers or drawings that show this arrangement would be quite helpful. Thanks! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 05:57:39 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 06:57:39 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM 848-02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <124f01d82d63$8d125230$a736f690$@gmail.com> Page #14 of: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tandon/TM848-1_TM-848-2_Product_Specification_Mar81.pdf Unless "-02" is different than "-2" ... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 6:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Tandon TM 848-02 Does anyone have anything on the jumper settings for this drive? I would like to jumper it so it can read DEC RX01/RX02 floppies. I am looking at being able to read disks on a non-DEC systems but I would also like to be able to use it on my Andromeda card in a real PDP-11. bill From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 1 16:20:51 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:20:51 -0600 Subject: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: <121301d82d45$a0189ab0$e049d010$@gmail.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> <121301d82d45$a0189ab0$e049d010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20220301222051.GG7643@n0jcf.net> Thanks very much Paul and others. The overview you linked is very helpful as I now have the actual model number for the rack that I have. It is indeed the H9642-AD 40" "Top Loader" but it is missing whatever cross piece goes behind the H9544 DA Bezel (#4) shown in the component parts diagram. My mystery is what that cross piece behind the bezel looks like, how it attaches to the vertical rails of the rack on each side and then how the bezel attaches to the cross piece. The back of the bezel has a ribbed channel that looks like some kind of bolts or other threaded or inserted fasteners were screwed or snapped into this channel and those were attached to the cross piece somehow. That's my missing link ... I fabricated an aluminum bar cross piece and then used heavy duty hook and loop-like fasteners to attach the bezel to this aluminum bar but it's cheesy and loose. I'd like to someday find the proper solution. Chris On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 03:23AM -0500), pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > Chris: > > The traditional DEC racks/cabinets are either full-height ("standard" = > H960) and part-height ("short" = H967) 19" racks. These are welded steel > frames built for computer-room type environments. When DEC started selling > into office environments (think data processing / business operations) they > designed a new line of cabinetry that was intended to fit into an office > where sight-lines are important and the desire was to look/work more like > other types of office equipment. The PDP-11/60 was I think an early example > of the redesigned cabinets -- really a double-wide plus a bit, but of more > modest height (roughly that of the H967). After that you see single-width > cabinets holding just 18U like the one that you have -- capable of holding a > complete, but modest, system. These newer-style cabinets/racks are riveted, > rather than welded. Emphasis was on style, cost-effectiveness, and RF > shielding given the need to operate near other types of office equipment. > > Here's a good overview: > http://vtda.org/docs/computing/DEC/Catalogs/EA21388-75_CabinetAccessoriesSup > pliesCatalog1981.pdf > > On the left side of page 8-of-16 you'll see a description of the 40" Medium > Systems Series, including diagrams and pictures of the "top-loader" > (H9642-AD) and "front-loader" (H9642-CA) designs. There isn't any "mod-kit" > to go from one to the other. It would be possible to get a functional > top-loader out of a front-loader with some metal reworking. Basically, > remove the lid and then (in effect) move the cross-pieces down 6U and add > what amount to four gusset plates for lateral bracing. In the H9642-AD > photo you can see the plates on the rear cross-piece. The front is similar, > but sensitive to ensuring that the center 6U isn't significantly occluded; > the front cross-piece may require some modification. There are a few other > changes but moving the cross-pieces down are the key. Notice the H9544 CA > Trim Kit, RL01/RL02 -- these are plastic pieces that bridge the gap between > the HDD cover and the cabinet side-panels; nice to have but they're mostly > there for style. > > If you decide to attempt (or simply want to gauge the complexity of) a > conversion I can see about getting some close-up photos of the various > components and connections. A conversion would not be a simple task. > > While the brochure speaks of "purchase as component kits" and the table > simply states "Basic Frame Kit", it's not the *same* frame kit for -AD and > -CA, and I suspect that "kit" in this case was not an IKEA flat-box of parts > but rather a factory-assembled frame to which one added other components as > appropriate for the intended use. These frames are _seriously_ riveted. > Notice that H9542-AD is distinct from the H9542-CA "component kit". > > (Note that the TU80 -- http://gunkies.org/w/images/5/52/Tu80.jpg -- is > basically a H9642-AD "top-loader" with a hinged lid and special-purpose 13U > front.) -- Chris Elmquist From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 22:10:13 2022 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 04:10:13 +0000 Subject: PDT-11 Virtual Terminal Monitor v1.07 Message-ID: Hi! Anyone remember how to use this program that announces itself as "PDT-11 Virtual Terminal Monitor v1.07" ? I found it on a floppy of RT-11 v4.0 with my pile of PDT-11 treasures (which amazingly still seem to read fine and work wonderfully; disk file timestamps around 1979 - 1982). I thought maybe it was a term program, since these PDTs were kind of famous for that sort of deployment, and tried looping back pin 2 to pin 3 on each serial + modem port and typing some characters, but nothing shows up in vterm. It does come out of some mode into a command mode, I think, when I send a break to the console. ^C kills it from there and I can get back to RT. I found online a DECUS program of the same name (vterm), submitted by DEC circa 1979, and am wondering if this is the same beastie I've discovered on my 8" floppy: https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/110417.html ; however, when I try to click through that decus website, the actual packages themselves seem to have been lost! Does anyone know where to obtain the actual files that came with this 110417 from DECUS? And if I'm on the right track, here? It would be cool to have this PDT-11 functioning as God intended if this vterm is actually a terminal emulator type of thing... thx jake From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 02:46:02 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 03:46:02 -0500 Subject: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: <20220301222051.GG7643@n0jcf.net> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> <121301d82d45$a0189ab0$e049d010$@gmail.com> <20220301222051.GG7643@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <13f801d82e11$f3475650$d9d602f0$@gmail.com> Your description sounds like the cabinet has already been hacked by a prior owner to remove a key component. And you're saying that the rear cross-piece is present but both of the top cross-pieces are absent? Completely weird. I'll contact you off-list and we can exchange photos to determine what's-what. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Elmquist Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 5:21 PM To: pbirkel at gmail.com Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Re: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet Thanks very much Paul and others. The overview you linked is very helpful as I now have the actual model number for the rack that I have. It is indeed the H9642-AD 40" "Top Loader" but it is missing whatever cross piece goes behind the H9544 DA Bezel (#4) shown in the component parts diagram. My mystery is what that cross piece behind the bezel looks like, how it attaches to the vertical rails of the rack on each side and then how the bezel attaches to the cross piece. The back of the bezel has a ribbed channel that looks like some kind of bolts or other threaded or inserted fasteners were screwed or snapped into this channel and those were attached to the cross piece somehow. That's my missing link ... I fabricated an aluminum bar cross piece and then used heavy duty hook and loop-like fasteners to attach the bezel to this aluminum bar but it's cheesy and loose. I'd like to someday find the proper solution. Chris On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 03:23AM -0500), pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > Chris: > > The traditional DEC racks/cabinets are either full-height ("standard" > = > H960) and part-height ("short" = H967) 19" racks. These are welded > steel frames built for computer-room type environments. When DEC > started selling into office environments (think data processing / > business operations) they designed a new line of cabinetry that was > intended to fit into an office where sight-lines are important and the > desire was to look/work more like other types of office equipment. > The PDP-11/60 was I think an early example of the redesigned cabinets > -- really a double-wide plus a bit, but of more modest height (roughly > that of the H967). After that you see single-width cabinets holding > just 18U like the one that you have -- capable of holding a complete, > but modest, system. These newer-style cabinets/racks are riveted, > rather than welded. Emphasis was on style, cost-effectiveness, and RF shielding given the need to operate near other types of office equipment. > > Here's a good overview: > http://vtda.org/docs/computing/DEC/Catalogs/EA21388-75_CabinetAccessor > iesSup > pliesCatalog1981.pdf > > On the left side of page 8-of-16 you'll see a description of the 40" > Medium Systems Series, including diagrams and pictures of the "top-loader" > (H9642-AD) and "front-loader" (H9642-CA) designs. There isn't any "mod-kit" > to go from one to the other. It would be possible to get a functional > top-loader out of a front-loader with some metal reworking. > Basically, remove the lid and then (in effect) move the cross-pieces > down 6U and add what amount to four gusset plates for lateral bracing. > In the H9642-AD photo you can see the plates on the rear cross-piece. > The front is similar, but sensitive to ensuring that the center 6U > isn't significantly occluded; the front cross-piece may require some > modification. There are a few other changes but moving the > cross-pieces down are the key. Notice the H9544 CA Trim Kit, > RL01/RL02 -- these are plastic pieces that bridge the gap between the > HDD cover and the cabinet side-panels; nice to have but they're mostly there for style. > > If you decide to attempt (or simply want to gauge the complexity of) a > conversion I can see about getting some close-up photos of the various > components and connections. A conversion would not be a simple task. > > While the brochure speaks of "purchase as component kits" and the > table simply states "Basic Frame Kit", it's not the *same* frame kit > for -AD and -CA, and I suspect that "kit" in this case was not an IKEA > flat-box of parts but rather a factory-assembled frame to which one > added other components as appropriate for the intended use. These frames are _seriously_ riveted. > Notice that H9542-AD is distinct from the H9542-CA "component kit". > > (Note that the TU80 -- http://gunkies.org/w/images/5/52/Tu80.jpg -- is > basically a H9642-AD "top-loader" with a hinged lid and > special-purpose 13U > front.) -- Chris Elmquist From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 03:05:13 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 04:05:13 -0500 Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13fc01d82e14$a0acc350$e20649f0$@gmail.com> If it's mounted in a standard BA11-K, no. You should be able to pull it out partially (sufficient to tip up if you have rotating slides) and then there should be locking-buttons on the slides to prevent further extension accidentally. Depressing those buttons will allow you to completely remove the chassis and its attached inner slides; the outer slides will remain in the rack. Be careful with full extraction -- the power supply is heavy and the chassis is unbalanced. It's really a two-person operation, or one best accomplished with some sort of supporting mechanism (even wooden cribbing if you are so inclined). If it's anomalously mounted in a BA11-A (like the 11/44) then there is a finger-tab accessible through the front grill on the upper-right that pulls back a spring-loaded side-tab that engages the rack frame to prevent *any* extension whatsoever. Pull that away from the rack-frame and then pull out the chassis. Of course, it's possible that you simply have rusted slides that are binding, in which case you will simply have to use force. Recommend _pushing_ from the rear if "reasonable yanking" from the front isn't working. Although I've encountered a fair share of rusty slides, all have yielded (slowly) to repeated yanking/pushing, even if only a few centimeters at a time. Penetrating oil applied from the sides will help, but after cleaning and polishing the slides suggest that you use graphite or lithium grease to re-lub when reassembling. Others may have alternative lubrication recommendations. -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Marc Howard via cctech Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 7:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track slides. Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? Thanks, Marc Howard From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 03:05:13 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 04:05:13 -0500 Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13fc01d82e14$a0acc350$e20649f0$@gmail.com> If it's mounted in a standard BA11-K, no. You should be able to pull it out partially (sufficient to tip up if you have rotating slides) and then there should be locking-buttons on the slides to prevent further extension accidentally. Depressing those buttons will allow you to completely remove the chassis and its attached inner slides; the outer slides will remain in the rack. Be careful with full extraction -- the power supply is heavy and the chassis is unbalanced. It's really a two-person operation, or one best accomplished with some sort of supporting mechanism (even wooden cribbing if you are so inclined). If it's anomalously mounted in a BA11-A (like the 11/44) then there is a finger-tab accessible through the front grill on the upper-right that pulls back a spring-loaded side-tab that engages the rack frame to prevent *any* extension whatsoever. Pull that away from the rack-frame and then pull out the chassis. Of course, it's possible that you simply have rusted slides that are binding, in which case you will simply have to use force. Recommend _pushing_ from the rear if "reasonable yanking" from the front isn't working. Although I've encountered a fair share of rusty slides, all have yielded (slowly) to repeated yanking/pushing, even if only a few centimeters at a time. Penetrating oil applied from the sides will help, but after cleaning and polishing the slides suggest that you use graphite or lithium grease to re-lub when reassembling. Others may have alternative lubrication recommendations. -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Marc Howard via cctech Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 7:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track slides. Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? Thanks, Marc Howard From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 2 10:45:22 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 10:45:22 -0600 Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 > cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track > slides. > > Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is out far enough. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 2 10:45:22 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 10:45:22 -0600 Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 > cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track > slides. > > Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is out far enough. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 2 11:46:54 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:46:54 -0500 Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... In-Reply-To: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <6AEBF720-E6A6-48C8-A285-4FF095A0D6C2@comcast.net> > On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > > On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: >> I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 >> cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track >> slides. >> >> Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? > > Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not > have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it > and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. > That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. Might be a non-standard slide, or a defective lock. > BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep > the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. > > The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is > out far enough. That's why H960 cabinets have optional front stabilizer feet. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 11:52:48 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:52:48 -0500 Subject: While on the subject of cabinets... In-Reply-To: <6AEBF720-E6A6-48C8-A285-4FF095A0D6C2@comcast.net> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <6AEBF720-E6A6-48C8-A285-4FF095A0D6C2@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/2/22 12:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: >>> I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 >>> cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track >>> slides. >>> >>> Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? >> >> Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not >> have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it >> and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. >> That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. > > Might be a non-standard slide, or a defective lock. > >> BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep >> the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. >> >> The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is >> out far enough. > > That's why H960 cabinets have optional front stabilizer feet. > RL's will flip it too. And let's not even go into RA's. :-) bill From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Mar 2 12:05:09 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:05:09 -0600 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I have several difficult slides in my H960 rack. What is the best lubricant for the slides? I was wondering if graphite would work better than oil due to the fact that it won't pick up dirt and dust. On 3/2/2022 10:45 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: >> I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 >> cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track >> slides. >> >> Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? > Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not > have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it > and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. > That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. > > BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep > the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. > > The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is > out far enough. > > Chris From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Mar 2 12:05:09 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:05:09 -0600 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I have several difficult slides in my H960 rack. What is the best lubricant for the slides? I was wondering if graphite would work better than oil due to the fact that it won't pick up dirt and dust. On 3/2/2022 10:45 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: >> I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 >> cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track >> slides. >> >> Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? > Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not > have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it > and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. > That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. > > BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep > the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. > > The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is > out far enough. > > Chris From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 2 12:10:35 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:10:35 -0600 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/02/2022 at 12:05PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: > I have several difficult slides in my H960 rack. > > What is the best lubricant for the slides? > > I was wondering if graphite would work better than oil due to the fact that > it won't pick up dirt and dust. I have not done this yet on these particular slides but I think I would clean them well with something that would remove the old lubricant-- maybe isopropyl alcohol or even WD-40 (as a cleaner, not a lubricant) and then grease them with light, white lithium grease. I have used such on other equipment slides with success. Chris > On 3/2/2022 10:45 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > > On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > > > I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 > > > cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track > > > slides. > > > > > > Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? > > Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not > > have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it > > and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. > > That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. > > > > BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep > > the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. > > > > The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is > > out far enough. > > > > Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 2 12:10:35 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:10:35 -0600 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/02/2022 at 12:05PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: > I have several difficult slides in my H960 rack. > > What is the best lubricant for the slides? > > I was wondering if graphite would work better than oil due to the fact that > it won't pick up dirt and dust. I have not done this yet on these particular slides but I think I would clean them well with something that would remove the old lubricant-- maybe isopropyl alcohol or even WD-40 (as a cleaner, not a lubricant) and then grease them with light, white lithium grease. I have used such on other equipment slides with success. Chris > On 3/2/2022 10:45 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > > On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > > > I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up. It's mounted in a H9642 > > > cabinet. I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track > > > slides. > > > > > > Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit? > > Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not > > have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out. I just grab it > > and start pulling and it slides out-- although it does not slide easily. > > That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides. > > > > BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep > > the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out. > > > > The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is > > out far enough. > > > > Chris -- Chris Elmquist From lee.gleason at comcast.net Wed Mar 2 12:32:14 2022 From: lee.gleason at comcast.net (Lee Gleason) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:32:14 -0600 Subject: PDT-11 Virtual Terminal Monitor v1.07 Message-ID: <2442034b-ad50-0d31-f49a-b3e3c6e44ee9@comcast.net> > and tried looping back pin 2 to pin 3 >on each serial + modem port and typing some characters, but nothing shows >up in vterm. ? PDT-11/150 terminal and printer ports ports all require a high on pin 20, DTR, before they can send characters.? I've never used the modem port on my PDT's but I suspect it requires the typical, pins 6, 8, and 20 wired together. Maybe you need to pull some of these pins high to loop around? -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 2 13:50:06 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 11:50:06 -0800 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <0ec8345c-0b13-6f06-3a6c-76f3a7ec471e@sydex.com> Hitchhiking on Mike's thread, There's a question that I've wondered about regarding rack slides. Right now, for a couple of tape drives, I'm using slides rated at 150 lbs., yet they seem pretty flimsy when compared the the old heavy-duty slides we used to use. Has anyone tried using the standard heavy duty (e.g. 250 lb,) extension drawer slides for their rack work? Post-to-post, my rack is 26" deep, if that helps. --Chuck From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Mar 2 15:35:34 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 21:35:34 +0000 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4bc620aeceb64b44968cdc661461d908@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> > then grease them with light, white lithium grease. Fully agree! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Mar 2 15:35:34 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 21:35:34 +0000 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4bc620aeceb64b44968cdc661461d908@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> > then grease them with light, white lithium grease. Fully agree! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 2 16:10:26 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 14:10:26 -0800 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <4bc620aeceb64b44968cdc661461d908@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> <4bc620aeceb64b44968cdc661461d908@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <0de29fb9-4f65-a9c1-7e06-543b57a458e5@sydex.com> On 3/2/22 13:35, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> then grease them with light, white lithium grease. > Fully agree! If you wanted something a bit cleaner and less prone to separation, I'd suggest Boeshield T9. Great stuff, but more expensive than lithium soap in oil. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 4 12:29:13 2022 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 12:29:13 -0600 Subject: Sun stuff in MA, USA In-Reply-To: <0de29fb9-4f65-a9c1-7e06-543b57a458e5@sydex.com> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <20220302181035.GM1344@n0jcf.net> <4bc620aeceb64b44968cdc661461d908@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <0de29fb9-4f65-a9c1-7e06-543b57a458e5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20220304182927.2EB7F4E72F@mx2.ezwind.net> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/t6mqgh/my_dad_who_recently_passed_has_a_bunch_of_sun/ - John From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Mar 4 15:06:21 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 21:06:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <01SAG633PIWQ8WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have several difficult slides in my H960 rack. > > What is the best lubricant for the slides? > > I was wondering if graphite would work better than oil due to the fact > that it won't pick up dirt and dust. > Powdered graphite for lubricating locks? I wouldn't like to have conductive stuff like that anywhere it might get sucked in by fans and deposited on PCBs. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 4 15:57:12 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 16:57:12 -0500 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <01SAG633PIWQ8WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <01SAG633PIWQ8WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > On Mar 4, 2022, at 4:06 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > >> >> I have several difficult slides in my H960 rack. >> What is the best lubricant for the slides? >> I was wondering if graphite would work better than oil due to the fact that it won't pick up dirt and dust. > > Powdered graphite for lubricating locks? > > I wouldn't like to have conductive stuff like that anywhere it might > get sucked in by fans and deposited on PCBs. I had the same thought. And from what I've heard, graphite is no longer recommended for locks either; part of the reason seems to be that it absorbs moisture. Instead there are spray cans with neat teflon-bearing very light lubricant, they work very nicely. If I had slides that needed lubrication I might try some anti-seize compound like the stuff some guns want in the action. paul From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Mar 4 15:59:35 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:59:35 -0600 Subject: Rack Discussion Continued - Slide lubricant In-Reply-To: <01SAG633PIWQ8WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20220302164522.GD13214@n0jcf.net> <01SAG633PIWQ8WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Good point. On 3/4/2022 3:06 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have several difficult slides in my H960 rack. >> >> What is the best lubricant for the slides? >> >> I was wondering if graphite would work better than oil due to the >> fact that it won't pick up dirt and dust. >> > > Powdered graphite for lubricating locks? > > I wouldn't like to have conductive stuff like that anywhere it might > get sucked in by fans and deposited on PCBs. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 05:59:31 2022 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silcreval) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:59:31 +0000 Subject: Muldivo Digiputer 1968 References: <4CB2DEAA-46FD-489E-A5E7-0B81215A8182.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CB2DEAA-46FD-489E-A5E7-0B81215A8182@yahoo.com> Spotted on ebay - No involvement in the sale - just tagging in case any one on the list has interest. "Muldivo Digiputer 1968 - Imperial Dialog: IBM Model B" https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203849003806 From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Mar 6 07:01:55 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 05:01:55 -0800 Subject: Muldivo Digiputer 1968 In-Reply-To: <4CB2DEAA-46FD-489E-A5E7-0B81215A8182@yahoo.com> References: <4CB2DEAA-46FD-489E-A5E7-0B81215A8182.ref@yahoo.com> <4CB2DEAA-46FD-489E-A5E7-0B81215A8182@yahoo.com> Message-ID: That ain't no IBM model B ? Looks more like a Remington Electric with the double carriage return paddles. But by the plate and a quick search it is indeed an Imperial Electric. https://coimages.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/images/321/117/medium_SMG00177358.jpg Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don?t have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don?t." --Jonathan Winters -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of silcreval via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2022 4:00 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Muldivo Digiputer 1968 Spotted on ebay - No involvement in the sale - just tagging in case any one on the list has interest. "Muldivo Digiputer 1968 - Imperial Dialog: IBM Model B" https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203849003806 From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 07:44:21 2022 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silcreval) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:44:21 +0000 Subject: Muldivo Digiputer 1968 In-Reply-To: References: <4CB2DEAA-46FD-489E-A5E7-0B81215A8182.ref@yahoo.com> <4CB2DEAA-46FD-489E-A5E7-0B81215A8182@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94EA3645-94B4-4C96-A0F3-9D059549D17A@yahoo.com> I don't really know much about this era to be honest, > On 6 Mar 2022, at 13:01, D. Resor wrote: > > That ain't no IBM model B ? > > Looks more like a Remington Electric with the double carriage return paddles. > > But by the plate and a quick search it is indeed an Imperial Electric. > > https://coimages.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/images/321/117/medium_SMG00177358.jpg > > > Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. > http://hammondorganservice.com > Hammond USA warranty service > "Most people don?t have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don?t." --Jonathan Winters > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of silcreval via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2022 4:00 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Muldivo Digiputer 1968 > > Spotted on ebay - > > No involvement in the sale - just tagging in case any one on the list has interest. > > "Muldivo Digiputer 1968 - Imperial Dialog: IBM Model B" > > > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203849003806 > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 10 16:29:03 2022 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:29:03 -0600 Subject: testing Message-ID: <000001d834ce$3fa7f9b0$bef7ed10$@classiccmp.org> Test test From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 16:28:59 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:28:59 -0500 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <000001d834ce$3fa7f9b0$bef7ed10$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d834ce$3fa7f9b0$bef7ed10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <181101d834ce$3d996500$b8cc2f00$@verizon.net> ACK -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 5:29 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: testing Test test -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From abs at absd.org Thu Mar 10 17:18:41 2022 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:18:41 +0000 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <181101d834ce$3d996500$b8cc2f00$@verizon.net> References: <000001d834ce$3fa7f9b0$bef7ed10$@classiccmp.org> <181101d834ce$3d996500$b8cc2f00$@verizon.net> Message-ID: FIN On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 at 22:30, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > > ACK > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 5:29 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: testing > > Test test > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 18:53:26 2022 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 00:53:26 +0000 Subject: PDT-11 Virtual Terminal Monitor v1.07 In-Reply-To: <2442034b-ad50-0d31-f49a-b3e3c6e44ee9@comcast.net> References: <2442034b-ad50-0d31-f49a-b3e3c6e44ee9@comcast.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the lead, Lee. Hooking up a proper cable with all the signals got her talking! On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 6:32 PM Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > > and tried looping back pin 2 to pin 3 > >on each serial + modem port and typing some characters, but nothing shows > >up in vterm. > > > PDT-11/150 terminal and printer ports ports all require a high on pin > 20, DTR, before they can send characters. I've never used the modem > port on my PDT's but I suspect it requires the typical, pins 6, 8, and > 20 wired together. Maybe you need to pull some of these pins high to > loop around? > > -- > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lee.gleason at comcast.net > > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 18:56:40 2022 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 00:56:40 +0000 Subject: RT-11 Kermit to/from a raw device? Message-ID: Is there a way to do this? Or perhaps a driver in RT-11 that I could point to an entire drive? If not, maybe I could write one with some community guidance? Would be a splendid way to write real media, or in my case, read the hundreds of 8" floppies I have sitting on the shelf here for archive. thx jake From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 20:08:44 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:08:44 -0500 Subject: RT-11 Kermit to/from a raw device? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about COPY/DEVICE/FILE DUx: SAMPLE.DSK to get a device into a file then kermit it to somewhere else? Or a I missing the point? cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-03-10 19:56, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > Is there a way to do this? Or perhaps a driver in RT-11 that I could point > to an entire drive? If not, maybe I could write one with some community > guidance? > > Would be a splendid way to write real media, or in my case, read the > hundreds of 8" floppies I have sitting on the shelf here for archive. > > thx > jake From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 20:49:31 2022 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 02:49:31 +0000 Subject: RT-11 Kermit to/from a raw device? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 2:08 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What about COPY/DEVICE/FILE DUx: SAMPLE.DSK to get a device into a file > then kermit it to somewhere else? > I really did want to do that, but the target hardware is PDT-11/150, my only system with working 8" floppies, and it can't support a big disk (though it just occurred to me I could probably fake similar situation with a TU-58 emulator and new sysgen!). If I can get one of my bigger PDP-11s the ability to talk to floppies, then sure. Been trying, but don't know if that'll ever happen with things going the way they are :\ Actually this TU-58 emulator idea is starting to seem like a fun stunt.. Three serial ports on these PDT-11/150s, plus modem and console, so I could have lots of "larger," if slow (I think 2400 is the limit), storage devices on the ol' gal. Thanks for making me think, Nigel! --jake From bryce.diedrich at intel.com Thu Mar 10 16:29:59 2022 From: bryce.diedrich at intel.com (Diedrich, Bryce) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:29:59 +0000 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <000001d834ce$3fa7f9b0$bef7ed10$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d834ce$3fa7f9b0$bef7ed10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: ? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 2:29 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: testing Test test From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 11 06:59:36 2022 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:59:36 -0600 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <181101d834ce$3d996500$b8cc2f00$@verizon.net> References: <000001d834ce$3fa7f9b0$bef7ed10$@classiccmp.org> <181101d834ce$3d996500$b8cc2f00$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <007901d83547$dcb99690$962cc3b0$@classiccmp.org> Re: "ACK", Love this place ? Not sure what coughed on the mailing list server, reboot fixed it oddly. Thanks DaveM for poking me about it! J -----Original Message----- From: William Sudbrink Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 4:29 PM To: jwest at classiccmp.org; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: testing ACK -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 5:29 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: testing Test test -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 07:03:08 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 21:03:08 +0800 Subject: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab Message-ID: As there is no real cctalk traffic other than test messages I thought I post something a bit more interesting. Here is a short video of my fully restored DEC H500 Computer Lab with an 8-bit counter implementation including reset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57xU3Xqnqx4 Enjoy Tom Hunter P.S. Is there some problem with the mailing list? The few "non-test" messages I get are often out of context. From kl at 2k.ca Fri Mar 11 09:06:05 2022 From: kl at 2k.ca (=?UTF-8?B?S2V2aW4gTGVl?=) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 16:06:05 +0100 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <007901d83547$dcb99690$962cc3b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <007901d83547$dcb99690$962cc3b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4594AEFF-3065-46DD-ABEC-E1F384434DBE@2k.ca> Works ok now. Was silent for a few days. > On 11 Mar 2022, at 13:59, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > > ?Re: "ACK", Love this place ? > > Not sure what coughed on the mailing list server, reboot fixed it oddly. Thanks DaveM for poking me about it! > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Sudbrink > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 4:29 PM > To: jwest at classiccmp.org; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: testing > > ACK > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 5:29 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: testing > > Test test > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Mar 11 09:25:02 2022 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b95aa1b-e627-f99b-3d27-d463b86844ba@telegraphics.com.au> On 2022-03-11 8:03 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > ... > P.S. Is there some problem with the mailing list? The few "non-test" > messages I get are often out of context. Open secret -- There's something wrong with every mailing list... From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:01:16 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:01:16 -0500 Subject: Seeking a MC75325L Dual Memory Driver Message-ID: <002001d83558$dbaafd00$9300f700$@gmail.com> I have here in my hands a DEC H222A (16Kx18), part of a MM11-DP, that took a blow at sometime in the past. In consequence there are a number of small parts damaged (snapped diode, crushed axial electrolytic, chipped mica capacitor, cracked/broken SIP resister net) but those all appear to be relatively easy to replace. What's not so easy to replace is the MC75325L Dual Memory Driver (L = Ceramic) that was de-lidded in the process :-<. I am wondering whether anyone has one of these ICs in their spare parts drawer that I could acquire? I do see a MC75325P (plastic) on eBay at littlediode_components for ~20USD, plus a surprisingly modest shipping charge (Royal Mail International). UTSOURCE claims to have a supplier of the ceramic part "new", with a significantly higher shipping charge. Before I go with the ceramic part (IMO not the sort of packaging that gets . remarked) I thought that I would check here for alternative sources. Thank you, paul From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:08:35 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:08:35 -0500 Subject: Digitronics P135-20 Paper Tape Punch Message-ID: <002701d83559$e14ed0f0$a3ec72d0$@gmail.com> I have the mechanism for a Digitronics P135-20 Paper Tape Punch. It turns out that Surplus Sales currently has one of these for sale; see item "(EQP) P135-20/35". It is accompanied by a three-page snippet of a much longer manual for this punch. See: https://www.surplussales.com/equipment/pdf/eqp-p135-20-35.pdf That's the only documentation that I've been able to find :-{. I'd very much like to find/acquire the remainder of this manual, or other relevant documentation. Can anyone help me? Thank you, paul From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:20:46 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:20:46 -0600 Subject: Digitronics P135-20 Paper Tape Punch In-Reply-To: <002701d83559$e14ed0f0$a3ec72d0$@gmail.com> References: <002701d83559$e14ed0f0$a3ec72d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: did u try talking to that outfit to see if they got more documents with it? On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:08 AM Paul Birkel via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have the mechanism for a Digitronics P135-20 Paper Tape Punch. > > It turns out that Surplus Sales currently has one of these for sale; see > item "(EQP) P135-20/35". > > It is accompanied by a three-page snippet of a much longer manual for this > punch. > > > > See: https://www.surplussales.com/equipment/pdf/eqp-p135-20-35.pdf > > > > That's the only documentation that I've been able to find :-{. > > > > I'd very much like to find/acquire the remainder of this manual, or other > relevant documentation. Can anyone help me? > > > > Thank you, > > paul > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:29:13 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:29:13 -0600 Subject: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: check ur spam box and mark not as spam when you find stuff that shouldnt be in the spam box On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 7:03 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > As there is no real cctalk traffic other than test messages I thought I > post something a bit more interesting. Here is a short video of my fully > restored DEC H500 Computer Lab with an 8-bit counter implementation > including reset: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57xU3Xqnqx4 > > Enjoy > Tom Hunter > > P.S. Is there some problem with the mailing list? The few "non-test" > messages I get are often out of context. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 11:35:12 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:35:12 -0500 Subject: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 8:03 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > As there is no real cctalk traffic other than test messages I thought I > post something a bit more interesting. Here is a short video of my fully > restored DEC H500 Computer Lab with an 8-bit counter implementation > including reset: Hi, Tom, Great post and timely. I recently got leads for my H-500 but I didn't get exactly "one set". I know I didn't get any of the longest wires but I also got a couple extra, I think, brown ones for the tips. I read through the handbooks and the closest thing I found was page 173 in the Workbook that mentions "Bundle of Taper-Pin Patchcords (107 of Assorted Lengths), Model Number 916, $30). Could you post how many of each color you have? It's possible, of course, that you don't have exactly "one set" either, but if you happen to have 107 wires, that's a good indication, especially if your tally matches mine anywhere. Here's what I have: 22 BRN ~ 3" ( 2-7/8") 30 RED ~ 5" ( 4-7/8") 25 ORN ~ 7" ( 6-7/8") 20 YEL ~ 9" ( 8-7/8") 10 GRN ~17" (16-7/8") 0 BLU ----- 107 -ethan From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:38:01 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:38:01 -0500 Subject: Digitronics P135-20 Paper Tape Punch In-Reply-To: References: <002701d83559$e14ed0f0$a3ec72d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003801d8355d$fe42f020$fac8d060$@gmail.com> Yes indeed. No response whatsoever :-<. Not even a receipt acknowledgement. From: Adrian Stoness Sent: Friday, March 11, 2022 10:21 AM To: pbirkel at gmail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Digitronics P135-20 Paper Tape Punch did u try talking to that outfit to see if they got more documents with it? On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:08 AM Paul Birkel via cctech > wrote: I have the mechanism for a Digitronics P135-20 Paper Tape Punch. It turns out that Surplus Sales currently has one of these for sale; see item "(EQP) P135-20/35". It is accompanied by a three-page snippet of a much longer manual for this punch. See: https://www.surplussales.com/equipment/pdf/eqp-p135-20-35.pdf That's the only documentation that I've been able to find :-{. I'd very much like to find/acquire the remainder of this manual, or other relevant documentation. Can anyone help me? Thank you, paul From tcoxjoseph at aol.com Fri Mar 11 11:28:41 2022 From: tcoxjoseph at aol.com (Terry Cox-Joseph) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 17:28:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Classic Computers Members,I am looking for someone who had an operating floppy disk drive that can read old 5-1/4" floppy disks from the 1980s.I may also need someone to read hard, 3" floppies.?The disks can be mailed and the info can be saved as text and sent via email or to the Cloud.I would need a price estimate, as well. I live in Virginia.Thank you in advance.Terry Joseph From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Mar 11 12:00:24 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:00:24 -0600 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I use a greaseweazle to read and format DEC RX01/RX02 8" diskettes. It supports all sizes and formats. https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle https://decromancer.ooo/greaseweazle/ https://retrocmp.de/hardware/greaseweazle/greaseweazle.htm https://www.tindie.com/search/?q=greastweazle On 3/11/2022 11:28 AM, Terry Cox-Joseph via cctalk wrote: > Dear Classic Computers Members,I am looking for someone who had an operating floppy disk drive that can read old 5-1/4" floppy disks from the 1980s.I may also need someone to read hard, 3" floppies.?The disks can be mailed and the info can be saved as text and sent via email or to the Cloud.I would need a price estimate, as well. I live in Virginia.Thank you in advance.Terry Joseph From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 12:07:19 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 13:07:19 -0500 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Terry, If you're willing to travel to Kennett Square, PA we have a diskette archiving station set up for use here. Contact me privately if interested. Bill Degnan CONTACT---> https://www.kennettclassic.com/contact.cfm On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 12:41 PM Terry Cox-Joseph via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Dear Classic Computers Members,I am looking for someone who had an > operating floppy disk drive that can read old 5-1/4" floppy disks from the > 1980s.I may also need someone to read hard, 3" floppies. The disks can be > mailed and the info can be saved as text and sent via email or to the > Cloud.I would need a price estimate, as well. I live in Virginia.Thank you > in advance.Terry Joseph > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 11 15:14:55 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 13:14:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Terry Cox-Joseph via cctalk wrote: > Dear Classic Computers Members,I am looking for someone who had an > operating floppy disk drive that can read old 5-1/4" floppy disks from > the 1980s.I may also need someone to read hard, 3" floppies.?The disks > can be mailed and the info can be saved as text and sent via email or to > the Cloud.I would need a price estimate, as well. I live in > Virginia. > Thank you in advance. > Terry Joseph You might want to include a little more information. 1) Are you trying to make machine readable images that are only for storage and later duplication? OR, do you want to be able to get use of the content of the FILES on them? Your mention of "sent as text" implies that they are word processing files, but 1980s word processors stored their text in files that are incomprehensible to "modern" word processors. Current Microsoft Office can no longer handle Wordstar, Electric Pencil, Scripsit, or WordPervert files (or many hundreds of others). 2) Which of the [thousands] of disk formats are they? You should clarify those two questions before you send the disks to somebody who can't help you do what YOU want. In the 1980s, there were several different formats of floppy disks. Some estimates are as high as 2500 mutually incompatible formats of floppy disks, most of which were 5.25". IF those are floppy disks from a PC, then there are two common formats ("360k" and "1.2M"), out of six formats used by IBM, and a PC with a "1.2M" drive can easily read five of those. With some special extra software, it can also read the sixth one (IBM PCJX). Hundreds of the non-PC 5.25" formats can be read on a PC with special extra software. There are some, such as Apple, NorthStar, Vector Graphic, Victor, Sirius, that require special extra hardware AND software to read on a PC. 3" floppies were used by the Amstrad, in double sided, single sided, or "flippy" formats. The second side of the "flippy" disks can be read by flipping it over in a single sided 3" drive, but will require special hardware or software to get at if you only have the double sided 3" drive. 3" floppies were also used by Amdek, the most popular being [mutually incompatible] Apple and Coco. But, you are PROBABLY thinking about 3.5" floppies, rather than 3". In which case, the PC used "720K" and "1.4M" (usually erroneously called "1.44M", which was NOT the correct capacity for any rational meaning of MegaByte) Apple used "400K"/"800K" (single and double sided), and "1.4M". Reading the Apple "1.4M" can be easily done on a PC with special extra software. Reading the Apple "400K"/"800K" on a PC requires special extra hardware AND special extra software. Other than those most common ones, there are at least a hundred other 3.5" formats that will require special extra software, and a rare few, such as the Tandy portable drive for model 100/200, etc. that require special extra hardware. Sorry, right now, I do not have convenient access to any of the hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From go at ao-cs.com Fri Mar 11 12:16:54 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:16:54 -0800 Subject: Seeking a MC75325L Dual Memory Driver In-Reply-To: <002001d83558$dbaafd00$9300f700$@gmail.com> References: <002001d83558$dbaafd00$9300f700$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/22 07:01, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: .snip. > UTSOURCE claims to have a supplier of the ceramic part "new", with a > significantly higher shipping charge. > For what it's worth, I've ordered several times from UTSOURCE and the results have been perfect.? So far, I obtained a number of the Harris 'pdp8' chips D1-6120-9 and 6402 uarts plus Harris's weird baud-rate generator and 6121 'port' decoder.? All have been quickly delivered and were 100% tested by me only receipt and they all met operational specs within specified voltage ranges. Surprised about shopping charges, though.? I'm in the US and the shipping charges were quite 'nominal'. Less than $5 on a 25 chip order of about $150. They are so far, "good guys" in my book. -Gary > > > Before I go with the ceramic part (IMO not the sort of packaging that gets . > remarked) I thought that I would check here for alternative sources. > > > > Thank you, > > paul > -- -Gary From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 11 15:38:00 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 13:38:00 -0800 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I could do it, but I'm a little squeezed for time and energy right now. Spending my mornings under the LINAC. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 11 19:39:43 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 17:39:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I could do it, but I'm a little squeezed for time and energy right now. > Spending my mornings under the LINAC. Yikes! The word "under" means that you are not doing atomic physics experiments. Very sorry to hear it. I got more details from the guy with the disks. They are apparently "360K" PC floppies with XYWRITE files, and he wants to load the file contents into a "modern"? word processor. So hopefully, somebody can help him, with a simple COPY *.*, and I think that he now understands that he might also need to get back a copy of XYWRITE to turn the file content into something usable. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 20:04:38 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 21:04:38 -0500 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/22 20:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I could do it, but I'm a little squeezed for time and energy right now. >> Spending my mornings under the LINAC. > > Yikes! > The word "under" means that you are not doing atomic physics experiments. > > Very sorry to hear it. > > > I got more details from the guy with the disks.? They are apparently > "360K" PC floppies with XYWRITE files, and he wants to load the file > contents into a "modern"? word processor.? So hopefully, somebody can > help him, with a simple COPY *.*, and I think that he now understands > that he might also need to get back a copy of XYWRITE to turn the file > content into something usable. > It was mentioned that he would pay someone to do this. Why not just tell him to buy a $20 USB Floppy from Amazon and copy them himself? bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 11 20:25:23 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 18:25:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> I got more details from the guy with the disks.? They are apparently >> "360K" PC floppies with XYWRITE files, and he wants to load the file >> contents into a "modern"? word processor.? So hopefully, somebody can help >> him, with a simple COPY *.*, and I think that he now understands that he >> might also need to get back a copy of XYWRITE to turn the file content into >> something usable. On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > It was mentioned that he would pay someone to do this. Why not just > tell him to buy a $20 USB Floppy from Amazon and copy them himself? 5.25" USB floppies seem to be scarce now! I didn't do any serious searching, but neither Amazon nor eBay showed any obvious (on first page) hits. Some of the early USB drives, even if 3.5", MIGHT separate controller and drive enough to be modifiable, . . . I would GUESS that the "modern" ones are too "integrated". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 11 20:32:57 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:32:57 -0700 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 7:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> I got more details from the guy with the disks. They are apparently > >> "360K" PC floppies with XYWRITE files, and he wants to load the file > >> contents into a "modern"? word processor. So hopefully, somebody can > help > >> him, with a simple COPY *.*, and I think that he now understands that > he > >> might also need to get back a copy of XYWRITE to turn the file content > into > >> something usable. > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > It was mentioned that he would pay someone to do this. Why not just > > tell him to buy a $20 USB Floppy from Amazon and copy them himself? > > 5.25" USB floppies seem to be scarce now! > I didn't do any serious searching, but neither Amazon nor eBay showed any > obvious (on first page) hits. > > Some of the early USB drives, even if 3.5", MIGHT separate controller and > drive enough to be modifiable, . . . > I would GUESS that the "modern" ones are too "integrated". > There are no 5.25" USB floppies. Well, not 100% true (there are values in the identifier strings that tell you it's a 1.2MB floppy vs a 1.44MB floppy), but as a practical matter, you can't find them. I've looked and gave up... That's how I wound up with my kyroflux + TEAC drive (though a greaseweasel is a better choice these days)... If these are the old 360k diskettes, then you'd be out of luck the USB route.. But an imager would be on the order of $30 for the greaseweasel, or similar, and another $40 for a working 5.25" drive and a few hours of your time to set it up and figure it all out... So anybody copying the disks for < ~$100 or $150 would be cost effective for this person... The harder part is converting XYWRITE files into something more mordern... Warner From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 11 21:03:48 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:03:48 -0800 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/22 18:32, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > There are no 5.25" USB floppies. Well, not 100% true (there are > values in the identifier strings that tell you it's a 1.2MB floppy vs > a 1.44MB floppy), but as a practical matter, you can't find them. > I've looked and gave up... That's how I wound up with my kyroflux + > TEAC drive (though a greaseweasel is a better choice these days)... > Not completely true--in the old USB 1.0 days, there were a very few USB-to-floppy bridges that could talk 5.25' 250Kbit/sec-speak. SMC had one such and I suspect that multi-chip implementations were also available. But given that few new people understand anything that's not Windows, it would be a futile effort, I suspect. All the best, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 11 21:05:24 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:05:24 -0800 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59f50d78-534a-7e6e-6ff8-8e21fb2a36f1@sydex.com> On 3/11/22 18:04, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > It was mentioned that he would pay someone to do this.? Why not just > tell him to buy a $20 USB Floppy from Amazon and copy them himself? If he wants, he can send them to me. After all, it's just a few keystrokes for me. However, I don't do this for free. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 11 21:25:24 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:25:24 -0700 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 8:04 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/22 18:32, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > > There are no 5.25" USB floppies. Well, not 100% true (there are > > values in the identifier strings that tell you it's a 1.2MB floppy vs > > a 1.44MB floppy), but as a practical matter, you can't find them. > > I've looked and gave up... That's how I wound up with my kyroflux + > > TEAC drive (though a greaseweasel is a better choice these days)... > > > > Not completely true--in the old USB 1.0 days, there were a very few > USB-to-floppy bridges that could talk 5.25' 250Kbit/sec-speak. SMC had > one such and I suspect that multi-chip implementations were also available > Yea, that's why I said almost. The standard interface just allows an LBA and only certain fixed formats are defined that are very high level. This isn't conducive to different formats, data rates, etc. Unless there are nonstandard endpoints, all you can read is the 1.2MB diskettes... I spent a lot of time making this work with the 1.44mb 3.5" drive on FreeBSD. It can't even read 720k diskettes, at least the drive I had... But given that few new people understand anything that's not Windows, it > would be a futile effort, I suspect. > True. It's likely easier to use an imager and TEAC if they are 360k diskettes... or pay someone :) Warner All the best, > Chuck > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 11 21:34:03 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:34:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>>> I got more details from the guy with the disks. They are apparently >>>> "360K" PC floppies with XYWRITE files, and he wants to load the file >>>> contents into a "modern"? word processor. So hopefully, somebody can >>>> help him, with a simple COPY *.*, and I think that he now understands >>>> that he might also need to get back a copy of XYWRITE to turn the >>>> file content into something usable. >>> It was mentioned that he would pay someone to do this. Why not just >>> tell him to buy a $20 USB Floppy from Amazon and copy them himself? > On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 7:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> 5.25" USB floppies seem to be scarce now! >> I didn't do any serious searching, but neither Amazon nor eBay showed any >> obvious (on first page) hits. >> Some of the early USB drives, even if 3.5", MIGHT separate controller and >> drive enough to be modifiable, . . . >> I would GUESS that the "modern" ones are too "integrated". On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Warner Losh wrote: > There are no 5.25" USB floppies. Well, not 100% true (there are values > in the identifier strings that tell you it's a 1.2MB floppy vs a 1.44MB > floppy), but as a practical matter, you can't find them. I've looked and > gave up... That's how I wound up with my kyroflux + TEAC drive (though a > greaseweasel is a better choice these days)... > > If these are the old 360k diskettes, then you'd be out of luck the USB > route.. But an imager would be on the order of $30 for the greaseweasel, > or similar, and another $40 for a working 5.25" drive and a few hours of > your time to set it up and figure it all out... So anybody copying the > disks for < ~$100 or $150 would be cost effective for this person... If somebody DID make a 1.2M USB floppy, it would seem likely that they OUGHT TO include the 360K option within it, . . . But, if 1.2M USB drives exist, or ever existed, they're R at RE I HOPE that the USB 1.4M drives handle 720K, . . . > The harder part is converting XYWRITE files into something more mordern... In his further detail private message, He seemd to understand that he might have to get a replacement copy of XYWRITE (he said that he gave his to Goodwill a few months ago), and do a load and SAVE-AS for each file. Yes, it was always fun trying to explain to people that COPYing the Wordstar file was NOT the cause of the "corruption of the last letter of each word". Fortunately, THAT one was trivial to deal with. I don't know anything about the file structure of XYWRITE. [This reply was delayed by a power failure] -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 11 21:37:33 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:37:33 -0700 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 8:34 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>> I got more details from the guy with the disks. They are apparently > >>>> "360K" PC floppies with XYWRITE files, and he wants to load the file > >>>> contents into a "modern"? word processor. So hopefully, somebody can > >>>> help him, with a simple COPY *.*, and I think that he now understands > >>>> that he might also need to get back a copy of XYWRITE to turn the > >>>> file content into something usable. > > >>> It was mentioned that he would pay someone to do this. Why not just > >>> tell him to buy a $20 USB Floppy from Amazon and copy them himself? > > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 7:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > >> 5.25" USB floppies seem to be scarce now! > >> I didn't do any serious searching, but neither Amazon nor eBay showed > any > >> obvious (on first page) hits. > >> Some of the early USB drives, even if 3.5", MIGHT separate controller > and > >> drive enough to be modifiable, . . . > >> I would GUESS that the "modern" ones are too "integrated". > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Warner Losh wrote: > > There are no 5.25" USB floppies. Well, not 100% true (there are values > > in the identifier strings that tell you it's a 1.2MB floppy vs a 1.44MB > > floppy), but as a practical matter, you can't find them. I've looked and > > gave up... That's how I wound up with my kyroflux + TEAC drive (though a > > greaseweasel is a better choice these days)... > > > > If these are the old 360k diskettes, then you'd be out of luck the USB > > route.. But an imager would be on the order of $30 for the greaseweasel, > > or similar, and another $40 for a working 5.25" drive and a few hours of > > your time to set it up and figure it all out... So anybody copying the > > disks for < ~$100 or $150 would be cost effective for this person... > > If somebody DID make a 1.2M USB floppy, it would seem likely that they > OUGHT TO include the 360K option within it, . . . > It ought to... but that's not defined in the standard... But, if 1.2M USB drives exist, or ever existed, they're R at RE > I HOPE that the USB 1.4M drives handle 720K, . . . > That's what I hoped when I bought it, but no joy. Even trying nonstandard format values was no help. It would only read 1.44MB. Warner > The harder part is converting XYWRITE files into something more mordern... > > In his further detail private message, He seemd to understand that he > might have to get a replacement copy of XYWRITE (he said that he gave his > to Goodwill a few months ago), and do a load and SAVE-AS for each file. > > > Yes, it was always fun trying to explain to people that COPYing the > Wordstar file was NOT the cause of the "corruption of the last letter of > each word". Fortunately, THAT one was trivial to deal with. I don't know > anything about the file structure of XYWRITE. > > > [This reply was delayed by a power failure] > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 11 21:57:47 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:57:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>> There are no 5.25" USB floppies. Well, not 100% true (there are values >>> in the identifier strings that tell you it's a 1.2MB floppy vs a 1.44MB >>> floppy), but as a practical matter, you can't find them. I've looked and >>> gave up... That's how I wound up with my kyroflux + TEAC drive (though a >>> greaseweasel is a better choice these days)... >>> >>> If these are the old 360k diskettes, then you'd be out of luck the USB >>> route.. But an imager would be on the order of $30 for the greaseweasel, >>> or similar, and another $40 for a working 5.25" drive and a few hours of >>> your time to set it up and figure it all out... So anybody copying the >>> disks for < ~$100 or $150 would be cost effective for this person... >> >> If somebody DID make a 1.2M USB floppy, it would seem likely that they >> OUGHT TO include the 360K option within it, . . . > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Warner Losh wrote: > It ought to... but that's not defined in the standard... > But, if 1.2M USB drives exist, or ever existed, they're R at RE >> I HOPE that the USB 1.4M drives handle 720K, . . . > That's what I hoped when I bought it, but no joy. Even trying nonstandard > format values was no help. It would only read 1.44MB. Well, it requires two different data transfer rates, two write durrents if you want to WRITE, enough smarts to recognize what it sees, and software that supports both sets of format parameters. Nevertheless, designing a 1.4M without 720K support or a 1.2M without 360K support would seem to be unclear on the concept. And, a properly designed 1.4M should be even able to handle BOTH PC 1.4M and Mac 1.4M. I'll cut them some slack on not supporting 160K, 180K, 320K, or being able to provide lower level access (INT13H equivalent) for non-PC formats. (Although that is obviously what I would want) There was a time about 30 years ago, . . . a couple different companies took tiny single boards, such as Ampro Little Board, stuck them in a box with a floppy drive, and custom software that included communication through serial port, and marketed them as things such as "MACINTOSH drive for PC, AND OTHER, disks"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 11 22:12:33 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:12:33 -0800 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0a9f0b48-142e-08e9-b883-784a4f034472@sydex.com> On 3/11/22 19:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > There was a time about 30 years ago, . . . > a couple different companies took tiny single boards, such as Ampro > Little Board, stuck them in a box with a floppy drive, and custom > software that included communication through serial port, and marketed > them as things such as "MACINTOSH drive for PC, AND OTHER, disks"! I've got a little FAX-to-printer box (passthrough from PC) has a 3.5" floppy integrated and a NEC V40 CPU running the thing. On a lark, I ported CP/M-86 to the thing for yucks (has a serial port for debugging). Let's also not forget the Micro Solutions Backpack drive, which interfaced to a PC printer port and came in both 3.5" and 5.25" flavors. Had a 16KB DRAM buffer, an 8051 MCU and a DP8473 FDC with about 256 bytes of NVRAM for configuration. Using the printer port, you could send controls to the FDC and send and receive data from the buffer RAM. It could even handle 8" single-density floppies, if you had the right cable. We sold a couple hundred of those things modified for Japanese CNC use. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Mar 12 00:23:40 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 06:23:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Found SYSTEM DOCUMENTATION FOR ALUMINUM COMPANY OF AMERICA WARRICK WORKS DATANET -30 REALTIME DATA ACCUMULATOR AND DISTRIBUTOR ... AUG 7 1964 References: <1540553652.762252.1647066220321.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1540553652.762252.1647066220321@mail.yahoo.com> SYSTEM DOCUMENTATION FOR ALUMINUM COMPANY OF AMERICA WARRICK WORKS DATANET -30 REALTIME DATA ACCUMULATOR AND DISTRIBUTOR ... AUG 7 1964 Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Mar 12 00:26:34 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 06:26:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> Found! Ge 115 computer brochure where can I find the computer? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 09:30:48 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 09:30:48 -0600 Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Upload a scan would help On Sat., Mar. 12, 2022, 12:26 a.m. ED SHARPE via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Found! Ge 115 computer brochure where can I find the computer? > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 09:39:03 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 23:39:03 +0800 Subject: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ethan, My count is zero. I had no original patch wires at all. :-( I made mine from some cheap banana plugs and silicon leads I bought on AliExpress. Only about 30 % of the plugs were a good fit, the rest I had to modify to make them usable. The YouTube video from my original post shows the patch wires I made. The originals were using 0.1" taper pins, but I never saw an original (other than photos). I couldn't find a source for the correct 0.1" taper pins so the banana plugs were my next best choice. Tom On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 1:35 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 8:03 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > As there is no real cctalk traffic other than test messages I thought I > > post something a bit more interesting. Here is a short video of my fully > > restored DEC H500 Computer Lab with an 8-bit counter implementation > > including reset: > > Hi, Tom, > > Great post and timely. I recently got leads for my H-500 but I didn't > get exactly "one set". I know I didn't get any of the longest wires > but I also got a couple extra, I think, brown ones for the tips. I > read through the handbooks and the closest thing I found was page 173 > in the Workbook that mentions "Bundle of Taper-Pin Patchcords (107 of > Assorted Lengths), Model Number 916, $30). > > Could you post how many of each color you have? It's possible, of > course, that you don't have exactly "one set" either, but if you > happen to have 107 wires, that's a good indication, especially if your > tally matches mine anywhere. > > Here's what I have: > > 22 BRN ~ 3" ( 2-7/8") > 30 RED ~ 5" ( 4-7/8") > 25 ORN ~ 7" ( 6-7/8") > 20 YEL ~ 9" ( 8-7/8") > 10 GRN ~17" (16-7/8") > 0 BLU > ----- > 107 > > -ethan > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 12:28:14 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:28:14 +0100 Subject: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1257086172.1544056.1647019721480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 22:38, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I could do it, but I'm a little squeezed for time and energy right now. > > Spending my mornings under the LINAC. Oh no. :-( Very sorry to hear that. I hope it's worth it and it works! (So far they've got 'em all early, but had another nasty little polyp carved out of my colon on Tuesday morning. There were 5 last year. One of these years they're going to miss one, and my ticket will come up.) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From skynet at wans.net Sat Mar 12 18:03:05 2022 From: skynet at wans.net (STAN IRWIN) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 00:03:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: General Data? Equipment Auction - GSA References: <170681294.1148141.1647129785420.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <170681294.1148141.1647129785420@mail.yahoo.com> Found an interesting item for bid on GSA auction site if anyone interested. Reminds me of General Data equipment... EQUIPMENT RACKS | | | | EQUIPMENT RACKS One lot consisting of: 2 Equipment Racks with the following built in: recorder, processors, disk drive units,... | | | Stan Irwin From skynet at wans.net Sat Mar 12 18:10:02 2022 From: skynet at wans.net (STAN IRWIN) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 00:10:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA References: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773@mail.yahoo.com> Found an interesting item for bid on GSA auction site if anyone interested. Reminds me of General Data equipment... https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitsrh/?sl=31QSCI22048010 Sorry, link did not send correctly on first try. Stan Irwin From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 18:27:24 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:27:24 -0500 Subject: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5cca0cea-bfa8-1b68-2d1b-13777da304c9@gmail.com> Looks more like Data General to me with that blue livery Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-03-12 19:10, STAN IRWIN via cctalk wrote: > Found an interesting item for bid on GSA auction site if anyone interested. > > Reminds me of General Data equipment... > https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitsrh/?sl=31QSCI22048010 > > > Sorry, link did not send correctly on first try. > Stan Irwin From dstalkowski at ody.ca Sat Mar 12 19:10:44 2022 From: dstalkowski at ody.ca (Don Stalkowski) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:10:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <5cca0cea-bfa8-1b68-2d1b-13777da304c9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20220313011044.826C7BEEE84@cel2.x> Nova 1200 ? On Sat Mar 12 19:27:24 2022 cctalk at classiccmp.org (Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk) wrote: > > Looks more like Data General to me with that blue livery > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > > On 2022-03-12 19:10, STAN IRWIN via cctalk wrote: > > Found an interesting item for bid on GSA auction site if anyone interested. > > > > Reminds me of General Data equipment... > > https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitsrh/?sl=31QSCI22048010 > > > > > > Sorry, link did not send correctly on first try. > > Stan Irwin > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 20:16:15 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:16:15 +0800 Subject: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <5cca0cea-bfa8-1b68-2d1b-13777da304c9@gmail.com> References: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773@mail.yahoo.com> <5cca0cea-bfa8-1b68-2d1b-13777da304c9@gmail.com> Message-ID: The rack on the left has a DG NOVA 2 and the rack on the right may be a DG NOVA 1200. Sadly I am in Australia so shipping is prohibitively expensive. Hopefully these systems find a good new home. Tom On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, 8:27 am Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Looks more like Data General to me with that blue livery > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > > On 2022-03-12 19:10, STAN IRWIN via cctalk wrote: > > Found an interesting item for bid on GSA auction site if anyone > interested. > > > > Reminds me of General Data equipment... > > https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitsrh/?sl=31QSCI22048010 > > > > > > Sorry, link did not send correctly on first try. > > Stan Irwin > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 12 20:41:50 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:41:50 -0600 Subject: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54036a15-58a6-c7cc-f964-64f0f3fc4096@pico-systems.com> On 3/12/22 18:10, STAN IRWIN via cctalk wrote: > Found an interesting item for bid on GSA auction site if anyone interested. > > Reminds me of General Data equipment... > https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitsrh/?sl=31QSCI22048010 > > > Sorry, link did not send correctly on first try. > Stan Irwin Yes, two Data General Nova (16-bit) CPUs roughly in the center of each rack.? Doesn't help that the aspect ratio of the photo is not right. Jon From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat Mar 12 23:21:07 2022 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 22:21:07 -0700 Subject: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <54036a15-58a6-c7cc-f964-64f0f3fc4096@pico-systems.com> References: <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1350050240.1147932.1647130202773@mail.yahoo.com> <54036a15-58a6-c7cc-f964-64f0f3fc4096@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5fe8cd28-6e19-0083-8c29-f4d9f80be652@Wild-Hare.com> The rack on the left appears to have a Nova 1220 with 6030 315Kb dual diskette drive and 6045 5 + 5 MB top loader (Phoenix) drive, the rack on the right appears to be a Nova 2/10 with early model 6026 9-track tape drive and 6045 disk drive. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 3/12/2022 7:41 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/12/22 18:10, STAN IRWIN via cctalk wrote: >> Found an interesting item for bid on GSA auction site if anyone >> interested. >> >> Reminds me of General Data equipment... >> https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitsrh/?sl=31QSCI22048010 >> >> >> Sorry, link did not send correctly on first try. >> Stan Irwin > > Yes, two Data General Nova (16-bit) CPUs roughly in the center of each > rack.? Doesn't help that the aspect ratio of the photo is not right. > > Jon > From david4602 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 14:20:15 2022 From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 15:20:15 -0500 Subject: DECmate II disk image tooling? Message-ID: I have some disks that look like they're from a DECmate II computer, standard RX50K drives. The disk images all look like they're a mix of 12-bit (OS/78 or OS/278?) and 8-bit all on the same media. I can't convince PUTR to make sense of the images, so I'm wondering if there is anything else out there that is likely to be able to examine the disk contents? I'm really looking for PUTR-like functionality to list and copy files. Maybe SIMH could be configured to be a DECmate II and be fed the disks? I have a couple of disk images available in case anyone wants to try them out - they're purported to be "DECmate II CP/M 2.2 version 2.0" and "System Disk ver. 2.0 8/24/87": https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1PD0TlUPiT7MIPEX6abEn33e7s3kSXp_H?usp=sharing - David From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 16:55:08 2022 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 22:55:08 +0000 Subject: DECmate II disk image tooling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure what would be on the "System Disks? but it's probably OS/78 or 278. As far as the CP/M disks and the 8-bit component of the disks, those are for the Z-80 expansion card which Simh does not emulate. Ray Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of David Schmidt via cctech Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2022 3:20:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: DECmate II disk image tooling? I have some disks that look like they're from a DECmate II computer, standard RX50K drives. The disk images all look like they're a mix of 12-bit (OS/78 or OS/278?) and 8-bit all on the same media. I can't convince PUTR to make sense of the images, so I'm wondering if there is anything else out there that is likely to be able to examine the disk contents? I'm really looking for PUTR-like functionality to list and copy files. Maybe SIMH could be configured to be a DECmate II and be fed the disks? I have a couple of disk images available in case anyone wants to try them out - they're purported to be "DECmate II CP/M 2.2 version 2.0" and "System Disk ver. 2.0 8/24/87": https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1PD0TlUPiT7MIPEX6abEn33e7s3kSXp_H?usp=sharing - David From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Mar 12 19:11:32 2022 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:11:32 -0500 Subject: DECmate II disk image tooling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c87c41e-b4ea-4ef7-df12-35950d39617e@rickmurphy.net> On 3/12/2022 3:20 PM, David Schmidt via cctech wrote: > I have some disks that look like they're from a DECmate II computer, > standard RX50K drives. The disk images all look like they're a mix of > 12-bit (OS/78 or OS/278?) and 8-bit all on the same media. I can't > convince PUTR to make sense of the images, so I'm wondering if there is > anything else out there that is likely to be able to examine the disk > contents? I'm really looking for PUTR-like functionality to list and copy > files. Since it's a DECMate II, these may be WPS disks. At least for the RX01/RX02, Those are 8-bit mode except for the boot sector (because the standard boot was for a 12-bit mode disk.)? I don't know the layout for the RX50 - since it's not using the RX boot, there shouldn't have been a need for a 12-bit boot sector. It's also possible they're COS-310 disks, which also were 8-bit mode.? Using byte mode allowed WPS and COS to use the full capacity of the disks.? Apparently the RX50 controller retained this wasteful 12-bit mode. > Maybe SIMH could be configured to be a DECmate II and be fed the disks? SIMH doesn't have an emulation for the RX50 controller on the DM2.? There's probably a different interleave being used here, so decoding the layout would be a matter of trial-and-error. The specs for the RX50 controller are available - http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/DECmate/Decmate_II_Specification_Jan83.txt That means that an emulator is possible. ??? -Rick From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 20:08:08 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:08:08 +0800 Subject: DECmate II disk image tooling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, I have a working DECmate III I could try your images on. Tom On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, 4:20 am David Schmidt via cctech, < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have some disks that look like they're from a DECmate II computer, > standard RX50K drives. The disk images all look like they're a mix of > 12-bit (OS/78 or OS/278?) and 8-bit all on the same media. I can't > convince PUTR to make sense of the images, so I'm wondering if there is > anything else out there that is likely to be able to examine the disk > contents? I'm really looking for PUTR-like functionality to list and copy > files. > > Maybe SIMH could be configured to be a DECmate II and be fed the disks? > > I have a couple of disk images available in case anyone wants to try them > out - they're purported to be "DECmate II CP/M 2.2 version 2.0" and "System > Disk ver. 2.0 8/24/87": > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1PD0TlUPiT7MIPEX6abEn33e7s3kSXp_H?usp=sharing > > - David > From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sun Mar 13 06:18:00 2022 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 12:18:00 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7 - Re: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Hi, I also have an H500 waiting for restoration. Maybe anyone can give better winfos about the plugs/connectors of the patch cables. I didn't have any, I have to make new. With best regards Gerhard Zitat von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > ? ? ? ? cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > ? ? ? ? http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ? ? ? ? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ? ? ? ? cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specificthan "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 10:37:55 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 23:37:55 +0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7 - Re: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> References: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: Hi Gerhard, I used the following banana plugs: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002907717547.html Please note that only about 30% of the plugs I received were a good fit. The rest I had to modify. I had to remove the barrel shaped contact spring and compress it carefully to open it up to make good contact with the sockets. I also soldered the barrel shaped contact spring onto the plug body. It is a lot of work to make the patch cables with plugs which don't quite fit, but with the modification the result is now neat and usable. I couldn't find anything else with a better fit. The original 0.1" taper pins are "unobtainium". Regards Tom On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:18 PM DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > I also have an H500 waiting for restoration. > Maybe anyone can give better winfos about the plugs/connectors of the > patch cables. > > I didn't have any, I have to make new. > > With best regards > > Gerhard > > Zitat von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specificthan "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sun Mar 13 12:06:27 2022 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 18:06:27 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7 - Re: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: <20220313180627.Horde.l7yeI0v4Cn9iLiSTlXKkIMA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Hi Tom, what do you think about this parts: Microsoft Word - D5936.doc (mouser.at)[1] Looks like 0.09" diameter. With best regards Gerhard Zitat von Tom Hunter : > Hi Gerhard, > ? > I used the following banana plugs: > ? > https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002907717547.html > ? > Please note that only about 30% of the plugs I received were a good > fit. The rest I had to modify. > ? > I had to remove the barrel shaped contact spring and compress it > carefully to open it up to make good contact with the sockets. > I also soldered the barrel shaped contact spring onto the plug > body. It is a lot of work to make the patch cables with plugs which > don't quite fit, but with the modification the result is now neat > and usable. > ? > I couldn't find anything else with a better fit. The original 0.1" > taper pins are "unobtainium". > > Regards > Tom > ? > > > > ? > On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:18 PM DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> ? ? I also have an H500 waiting for restoration. >> ? ? Maybe anyone can give better winfos about the >> plugs/connectors of the >> patch cables. >> >> ? ? I didn't have any, I have to make new. >> >> ? ? With best regards >> >> ? ? Gerhard >> >> ? ? Zitat von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: >> > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to >> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >? ?To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >? ?? ? ? ? http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk >> >? ?or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org >> > >> >? ?You can reach the person managing the list at >> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org >> > >> >? ?When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more? >> > specificthan "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." >> > > Links: ------ [1] https://www.mouser.at/datasheet/2/159/D5936-1514588.pdf From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 12:55:29 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 01:55:29 +0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7 - Re: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <20220313180627.Horde.l7yeI0v4Cn9iLiSTlXKkIMA@webmail.domainplanet.at> References: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> <20220313180627.Horde.l7yeI0v4Cn9iLiSTlXKkIMA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: Hi Gerhard, Yes - these look good but the price is much higher than what I paid. As I no longer work, modifying the cheap Chinese banana plugs was viable. If you still work and are time limited then the Pomona plugs may be the better option. It may be best to get a small number first to try before committing to a larger order. Best regards Tom On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 1:06 AM DI Gerhard Kreuzer < gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at> wrote: > Hi Tom, > > what do you think about this parts: > > Microsoft Word - D5936.doc (mouser.at) > > > Looks like 0.09" diameter. > > With best regards > > Gerhard > > Zitat von Tom Hunter : > > Hi Gerhard, > > I used the following banana plugs: > > https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002907717547.html > > Please note that only about 30% of the plugs I received were a good fit. > The rest I had to modify. > > I had to remove the barrel shaped contact spring and compress it carefully > to open it up to make good contact with the sockets. > I also soldered the barrel shaped contact spring onto the plug body. It is > a lot of work to make the patch cables with plugs which don't quite fit, > but with the modification the result is now neat and usable. > > I couldn't find anything else with a better fit. The original 0.1" taper > pins are "unobtainium". > > Regards > Tom > > > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:18 PM DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> I also have an H500 waiting for restoration. >> Maybe anyone can give better winfos about the plugs/connectors of the >> patch cables. >> >> I didn't have any, I have to make new. >> >> With best regards >> >> Gerhard >> >> Zitat von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: >> > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> > specificthan "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." >> > > > From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sun Mar 13 14:36:10 2022 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 20:36:10 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7 - Re: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> <20220313180627.Horde.l7yeI0v4Cn9iLiSTlXKkIMA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: <20220313203610.Horde.Y9ddN0v4Cn9iLkeq8hdEIQA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Hi Tom, everything else ist more expensive than Chinese stuff, but quality ...... I have to order parts at Mouser, so I will get 10 pcs. This will take 3 or 4 weeks, so stay tunes, I will report. With best regards Gerhard Zitat von Tom Hunter : > Hi Gerhard, > ? > Yes - these look good but the price is much higher than what I paid. > As I no longer work, modifying the cheap Chinese banana plugs was > viable. If you still work and are time limited then the Pomona plugs > may be the better option. It may be best to get a small number first > to try before committing to a larger order. > ? > Best regards > Tom > ? > ? > > > ? > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 1:06 AM DI Gerhard Kreuzer > wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> what do you think about this parts: >> >> Microsoft Word - D5936.doc (mouser.at)[1] >> >> Looks like 0.09" diameter. >> >> With best regards >> >> Gerhard >> >> Zitat von Tom Hunter : >>> Hi Gerhard, >>> ? >>> I used the following banana plugs: >>> ? >>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002907717547.html >>> ? >>> Please note that only about 30% of the plugs I received were a >>> good fit. The rest I had to modify. >>> ? >>> I had to remove the barrel shaped contact spring and compress it >>> carefully to open it up to make good contact with the sockets. >>> I also soldered the barrel shaped contact spring onto the >>> plug body. It is a lot of work to make the patch cables with plugs >>> which don't quite fit, but with the modification the result is now >>> neat and usable. >>> ? >>> I couldn't find anything else with a better fit. The original 0.1" >>> taper pins are "unobtainium". >>> >>> Regards >>> Tom >>> ? >>> >>> >>> >>> ? >>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:18 PM DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> ? ? I also have an H500 waiting for restoration. >>>> ? ? Maybe anyone can give better winfos about the >>>> plugs/connectors of the >>>> patch cables. >>>> >>>> ? ? I didn't have any, I have to make new. >>>> >>>> ? ? With best regards >>>> >>>> ? ? Gerhard >>>> >>>> ? ? Zitat von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: >>>> > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> > >>>> >? ?To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk >>>> >? ?or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org >>>> > >>>> >? ?You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org >>>> > >>>> >? ?When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more? >>>> > specificthan "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ? >> >> > > Links: ------ [1] https://www.mouser.at/datasheet/2/159/D5936-1514588.pdf From david4602 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 09:57:06 2022 From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:57:06 -0400 Subject: DECmate II disk image tooling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point about the CP/M disk - actually it is read just fine with cpmtools with this diskdef: # PRO CP/M RX50 DZ format (Perhaps only 79 tracks should be used?) diskdef dec_pro seclen 512 tracks 80 sectrk 10 blocksize 2048 maxdir 128 skew 2 boottrk 2 os 2.2 end So I'm left with figuring out how to pull files off of 12-bit OS/{2}78 disks. - David On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 5:55 PM Ray Jewhurst wrote: > I'm not sure what would be on the "System Disks? but it's probably OS/78 > or 278. As far as the CP/M disks and the 8-bit component of the disks, > those are for the Z-80 expansion card which Simh does not emulate. > > Ray > > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* cctech on behalf of David Schmidt > via cctech > *Sent:* Saturday, March 12, 2022 3:20:15 PM > *To:* General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > *Subject:* DECmate II disk image tooling? > > I have some disks that look like they're from a DECmate II computer, > standard RX50K drives. The disk images all look like they're a mix of > 12-bit (OS/78 or OS/278?) and 8-bit all on the same media. I can't > convince PUTR to make sense of the images, so I'm wondering if there is > anything else out there that is likely to be able to examine the disk > contents? I'm really looking for PUTR-like functionality to list and copy > files. > > Maybe SIMH could be configured to be a DECmate II and be fed the disks? > > I have a couple of disk images available in case anyone wants to try them > out - they're purported to be "DECmate II CP/M 2.2 version 2.0" and "System > Disk ver. 2.0 8/24/87": > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1PD0TlUPiT7MIPEX6abEn33e7s3kSXp_H?usp=sharing > > - David > From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 10:32:09 2022 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 08:32:09 -0700 Subject: DECmate II disk image tooling? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ad71129-873b-1aab-b815-fee25ddf5e6b@gmail.com> On 3/13/2022 7:57 AM, David Schmidt via cctech wrote: > Good point about the CP/M disk - actually it is read just fine with > cpmtools with this diskdef: > > # PRO CP/M RX50 DZ format (Perhaps only 79 tracks should be used?) > diskdef dec_pro > seclen 512 > tracks 80 > sectrk 10 > blocksize 2048 > maxdir 128 > skew 2 > boottrk 2 > os 2.2 > end > > So I'm left with figuring out how to pull files off of 12-bit OS/{2}78 > disks. If you can extract the byte stream from the IMD/IMG files (and de-interleave them if necessary into logical order), I have tools to read the OS/8, COS, etc. file-systems. The tools want essentially a 16 bit short for each 12 bit word, in logical order. I think this is essentially what you get for the "inefficient" 12 bit mode. I also have tools to unpack some of the interlaced 8-bit formats for RX01/RX02, and those tools may be adaptable to the RX50. Vince From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Mar 13 14:49:09 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 19:49:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> A person that had this ge computer would know.? ?Anyway this listserv still rejects images still ? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 8:31 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: Upload a scan would help On Sat., Mar. 12, 2022, 12:26 a.m. ED SHARPE via cctalk, wrote: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure where can I find the computer? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 13 16:02:50 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 14:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > A person that had this ge computer would know.? ?Anyway this listserv > still rejects images still ? > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android Yes. They screw up the teletype. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 13 16:33:02 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 14:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you can switch to a non-proportional font (not easy with AOHell), you can make "ASCII Art". It's not just for soft-core porn. On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > A person that had this ge computer would know.? ?Anyway this listserv still rejects images still ? > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 13 17:08:35 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 15:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Text art (Was: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure Message-ID: more like this: (Who needs VGA, if you have a non-proportional font?) (Text art, with a proportional font, is psychedelic) ____________________________________ ______________ |------|------| __ __ __ | ___________ | () | | 64X4 | 64X4 | || | | | | | | | | | | ___| |------|------| || | | | | | | |____| |____| || D | | 64X4 | 64X4 | || |__| |__| |__| ________________ ||| I | |------|------| | ________ ______ ______ | ADV476KN50 | ||| P | | 64X4 | 64X4 | |TRIDENT | |______| |______| | 1-54BV 8940 | ||| S | |------|------| || |TVGA | |______| |______| |________________| |||___| | 64X4 | 64X4 | || |8800CS | ________________ ___| |------|------| || |11380029| LOW->| /\ SUPER VGA | _________ | | | 64X4 | 64X4 | -------- BIOS | \/ (1) ||_________| | 1 | |------|------| || ______ J ______ |________________| _________ | 5 | | 64X4 | 64X4 | || |______| 2 |______| ________________ |_________| |___| |------|------| || ________ ______ | /\ SUPER VGA | ___| | 64X4 | 64X4 | |________| |______|| \/ (2) | _________ | | |------|------| () HIGH->|________________| |_________| | 9 | | 64X4 | 64X4 | ________ _________ _____________ _________ | | |______|______|__ |________| |_________| |_____________| |_________| |___| | __ TVGA-1623D _ () | |LLLLLLLLLLLLLL| |LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL| |___| | | From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Mon Mar 14 03:55:38 2022 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 09:55:38 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7 - Re: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: References: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> <20220313180627.Horde.l7yeI0v4Cn9iLiSTlXKkIMA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: <20220314095538.Horde.84zHZEv4Cn9iLwMKwSOUpDA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Hi Tom, here another source/manufacture .. 2550327.pdf (farnell.com)[1] With best regards Gerhard Zitat von Tom Hunter : > Hi Gerhard, > ? > Yes - these look good but the price is much higher than what I paid. > As I no longer work, modifying the cheap Chinese banana plugs was > viable. If you still work and are time limited then the Pomona plugs > may be the better option. It may be best to get a small number first > to try before committing to a larger order. > ? > Best regards > Tom > ? > ? > > > ? > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 1:06 AM DI Gerhard Kreuzer > wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> what do you think about this parts: >> >> Microsoft Word - D5936.doc (mouser.at)[2] >> >> Looks like 0.09" diameter. >> >> With best regards >> >> Gerhard >> >> Zitat von Tom Hunter : >>> Hi Gerhard, >>> ? >>> I used the following banana plugs: >>> ? >>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002907717547.html >>> ? >>> Please note that only about 30% of the plugs I received were a >>> good fit. The rest I had to modify. >>> ? >>> I had to remove the barrel shaped contact spring and compress it >>> carefully to open it up to make good contact with the sockets. >>> I also soldered the barrel shaped contact spring onto the >>> plug body. It is a lot of work to make the patch cables with plugs >>> which don't quite fit, but with the modification the result is now >>> neat and usable. >>> ? >>> I couldn't find anything else with a better fit. The original 0.1" >>> taper pins are "unobtainium". >>> >>> Regards >>> Tom >>> ? >>> >>> >>> >>> ? >>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:18 PM DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> ? ? I also have an H500 waiting for restoration. >>>> ? ? Maybe anyone can give better winfos about the >>>> plugs/connectors of the >>>> patch cables. >>>> >>>> ? ? I didn't have any, I have to make new. >>>> >>>> ? ? With best regards >>>> >>>> ? ? Gerhard >>>> >>>> ? ? Zitat von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: >>>> > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> > >>>> >? ?To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk >>>> >? ?or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org >>>> > >>>> >? ?You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> >? ?? ? ? ? cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org >>>> > >>>> >? ?When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more? >>>> > specificthan "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ? >> >> > > Links: ------ [1] https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2550327.pdf [2] https://www.mouser.at/datasheet/2/159/D5936-1514588.pdf From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Mar 13 16:39:02 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 21:39:02 +0000 Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Here is some Baudot Art. Hot off the model 28 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:?https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 5:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure If you can switch to a non-proportional font (not easy with AOHell), you can make "ASCII Art". It's not just for soft-core porn. On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > A person that had this ge computer would know.? ?Anyway this listserv still rejects images still ? > > Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 07:16:15 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 20:16:15 +0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 7 - Re: DEC H500 Digital Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <20220314095538.Horde.84zHZEv4Cn9iLwMKwSOUpDA@webmail.domainplanet.at> References: <20220313121800.Horde.O_nKMUv4Cn9iLdLoNkGD8JA@webmail.domainplanet.at> <20220313180627.Horde.l7yeI0v4Cn9iLiSTlXKkIMA@webmail.domainplanet.at> <20220314095538.Horde.84zHZEv4Cn9iLwMKwSOUpDA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: Hi Gerhard, The Farnell plugs seem to be 2 mm not 0.1". I suspect the Pomona plugs you mentioned earlier will be a better fit. You need at least 100 leads which means at least 200 plugs. I would get samples of both types before committing to a larger purchase. Best regards Tom On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:55 PM DI Gerhard Kreuzer < gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at> wrote: > Hi Tom, > > here another source/manufacture .. > > 2550327.pdf (farnell.com) > > With best regards > > Gerhard > > Zitat von Tom Hunter : > > Hi Gerhard, > > Yes - these look good but the price is much higher than what I paid. As I > no longer work, modifying the cheap Chinese banana plugs was viable. If you > still work and are time limited then the Pomona plugs may be the better > option. It may be best to get a small number first to try before committing > to a larger order. > > Best regards > Tom > > > > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 1:06 AM DI Gerhard Kreuzer < > gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at> wrote: > >> Hi Tom, >> >> what do you think about this parts: >> >> Microsoft Word - D5936.doc (mouser.at) >> >> >> Looks like 0.09" diameter. >> >> With best regards >> >> Gerhard >> >> Zitat von Tom Hunter : >> >> Hi Gerhard, >> >> I used the following banana plugs: >> >> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002907717547.html >> >> Please note that only about 30% of the plugs I received were a good fit. >> The rest I had to modify. >> >> I had to remove the barrel shaped contact spring and compress it >> carefully to open it up to make good contact with the sockets. >> I also soldered the barrel shaped contact spring onto the plug body. It >> is a lot of work to make the patch cables with plugs which don't quite fit, >> but with the modification the result is now neat and usable. >> >> I couldn't find anything else with a better fit. The original 0.1" taper >> pins are "unobtainium". >> >> Regards >> Tom >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:18 PM DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I also have an H500 waiting for restoration. >>> Maybe anyone can give better winfos about the plugs/connectors of the >>> patch cables. >>> >>> I didn't have any, I have to make new. >>> >>> With best regards >>> >>> Gerhard >>> >>> Zitat von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: >>> > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to >>> > cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> > >>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk >>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org >>> > >>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>> > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org >>> > >>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >>> > specificthan "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." >>> >> >> >> > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 14 10:16:32 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 15:16:32 +0000 Subject: Front Panels Message-ID: Hi ????? I've just done an inventory and I have the following stock ?????? PDP-8/e Type A? Qty 4 ??????? PDP-8/e Type? B Qty 5 ??????? PDP-8/f?????????????? Qty 4 ???????? PDP-8/i?????????????? Qty 8 ???????? New production may not be for a while. Rod Smallwood From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 14 19:53:50 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 20:53:50 -0400 Subject: gcobol Message-ID: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... I wonder if I can make build that front end with the pdp11 back-end. :-) paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 20:05:31 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 21:05:31 -0400 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... > We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time). > I wonder if I can make build that front end with the pdp11 back-end. :-) I wasn't aware it was still possible to build the PDP-11 back-end. I thought support for that was dropped ages ago. bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 20:53:45 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 19:53:45 -0600 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2022-03-14 6:53 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... > > I wonder if I can make build that front end with the pdp11 back-end. :-) > Good question. Does any one have card reader hooked up to modern machine? > paul > Ben. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 14 21:38:00 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 19:38:00 -0700 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: I have a serial Documation M-1000.? Not running at the moment, but adequate for such Two more M-600 parallel, and I think the number for the dinky one is M-150, also parallel. interface would go thru an arduino with 5v board easily to a USB serial or whatever (Ethernet maybe) thanks Jim On 3/14/2022 6:53 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> > Good question. Does any one have card reader hooked up to modern machine? > >> ????paul >> > Ben. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Mar 15 00:11:40 2022 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/14/2022 6:53 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Good question. Does any one have card reader hooked up to modern machine? > >> ????paul > Ben. > > > On Mon, 14 Mar 2022, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a serial Documation M-1000.? Not running at the moment, but adequate >> for such >> >> Two more M-600 parallel, and I think the number for the dinky one is M-150, >> also parallel. >> interface would go thru an arduino with 5v board easily to a USB serial or >> whatever (Ethernet maybe) >> >> thanks >> Jim I have a Documation M-1000L with a USB interface designed by Brian Knittel. I've used it to recover FORTRAN and data decks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 15 03:08:33 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:08:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, W2HX wrote: > Here is some Baudot Art. Hot off the model 28 Where is "here"? Christian From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 15 08:12:57 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:12:57 -0400 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... > > We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time). Yes, although that one is apparently more limited. And GnuCOBOL is a COBOL to C converter. gcobol is a full front end. One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging. >> I wonder if I can make build that front end with the pdp11 back-end. :-) > > I wasn't aware it was still possible to build the PDP-11 back-end. I > thought support for that was dropped ages ago. No, it's still there. I picked it up when it needed a maintainer. It's actually been upgraded to deal with GCC changes, for example the new condition code handling which produces somewhat better code. (Also the new register allocator, as an option, which unfortunately produces somewhat worse code.) paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Mar 15 10:16:50 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 15:16:50 +0000 Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: Well, I made the error thinking an email reflector full of very high tech people (discussing vintage computers) would not support attached images in 2021. Ok, so here is the picture as a link. I'll be curious to see if this reflector allows links or strips them. https://w2hx.com/x/TTY/Art/Dutch-Windmill.jpg 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:09 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, W2HX wrote: > Here is some Baudot Art. Hot off the model 28 Where is "here"? Christian From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 15 11:31:26 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:31:26 -0500 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: <34bdf069-4dcd-8967-7461-ccf0d01b70c5@pico-systems.com> On 3/14/22 19:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... > I rejuvenated some old Pascal programs using the FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) that is basically the same idea.? It was designed to take Borland Turbo Pascal and DEC Pascal extensions, and did quite well with it. In 1996 I built a laser photoplotter and wrote a Turbo Pascal program to convert Gerber photoplotter language to raster strips and run the plotter directly off the PC with a DMA card.? That computer was getting REALLY old, and I was worried about keeping it working, so I migrated the plotting to a Beagle Bone with the PRU microcontroller emulating the DMA card.? Then, I migrated the Gerber-raster converter program to FPC and cleaned it up a bit. Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 11:39:13 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:39:13 -0400 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/15/22 09:12, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... >> >> We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time). > > Yes, although that one is apparently more limited. In what way? > And GnuCOBOL is a COBOL to C converter. gcobol is a full front end. Is there some shortcoming in using C as an intermediate language? > One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging. Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use of GDB. FAQ seems to say it can be used. > >>> I wonder if I can make build that front end with the pdp11 back-end. :-) >> >> I wasn't aware it was still possible to build the PDP-11 back-end. I >> thought support for that was dropped ages ago. > > No, it's still there. I picked it up when it needed a maintainer. It's actually been upgraded to deal with GCC changes, for example the new condition code handling which produces somewhat better code. (Also the new register allocator, as an option, which unfortunately produces somewhat worse code.) > I may take a look at that although I'm a K&R kinda guy so things like DEC C and DECUS C are usually fine with me. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 15 11:57:30 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:57:30 -0400 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BB4DB06-C217-4570-BFB5-28194847BB8E@comcast.net> > On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:39 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/15/22 09:12, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... >>> >>> We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time). >> Yes, although that one is apparently more limited. > > In what way? I thought I saw a comment to that effect in the announcement; looking more closely that isn't the case, other than the limitations you get from going through C as an intermediate language. (Same sort of reason why the C++ to C converter is no longer used.) >> And GnuCOBOL is a COBOL to C converter. gcobol is a full front end. > > Is there some shortcoming in using C as an intermediate language? Yes, debugging. It means the debugger sees a C program, and it's somewhere between difficult and impossible to apply the original source semantics while debugging. >> One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging. > > Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use > of GDB. FAQ seems to say it can be used. Yes, but presumably in C language mode. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 12:18:50 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:18:50 -0400 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: <4BB4DB06-C217-4570-BFB5-28194847BB8E@comcast.net> References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> <4BB4DB06-C217-4570-BFB5-28194847BB8E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/15/22 12:57, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:39 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/15/22 09:12, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language front end for GCC. Interesting. For those who deal in legacy COBOL applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good way to get there. Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah... >>>> >>>> We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time). >>> Yes, although that one is apparently more limited. >> >> In what way? > > I thought I saw a comment to that effect in the announcement; looking more closely that isn't the case, other than the limitations you get from going through C as an intermediate language. (Same sort of reason why the C++ to C converter is no longer used.) Same comment. I have done quite a bit of COBOL with GnuCOBOL and find no limitations other than things they haven't implemented yet. I am not expecting the OO stuff but then I don't know any real COBOL programmers who are. :-) I have taken examples of COBOL I could find from IBM Mainframes, and other systems and other than the obvious modifications of things like file names I have not found anything that doesn't migrate. Would love to get other examples from Systems like Univac, Primos, VMS, etc. to see how easily (or hard) they migrate. > >>> And GnuCOBOL is a COBOL to C converter. gcobol is a full front end. >> >> Is there some shortcoming in using C as an intermediate language? > > Yes, debugging. It means the debugger sees a C program, and it's somewhere between difficult and impossible to apply the original source semantics while debugging. Interesting. The explanation in the FAQ seems to disagree with that but as I said, I have never run into a problem that couldn't be debugged using the source and my brain. COBOL just isn't that complex. The last time I did have to do anything like that was on a 4331 running VM370 about 40 years ago. IBM made it real easy. > >>> One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging. >> >> Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use >> of GDB. FAQ seems to say it can be used. > > Yes, but presumably in C language mode. But I thought there was a comment that because of the liberal use of comments it was easy tracing a problem back to the COBOL source. I'll probably never find out. :-) bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 15 12:31:18 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:31:18 -0400 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> <4BB4DB06-C217-4570-BFB5-28194847BB8E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CF9DC2D-04AB-4D8A-93EF-FCC84638C6D4@comcast.net> > On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/15/22 12:57, Paul Koning wrote: >>> ... > >>>> One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging. >>> >>> Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use >>> of GDB. FAQ seems to say it can be used. >> Yes, but presumably in C language mode. > > But I thought there was a comment that because of the liberal use > of comments it was easy tracing a problem back to the COBOL source. > > I'll probably never find out. :-) Same here since I'm not a COBOL programmer. What I meant: COBOL has data types like decimal numbers, which C doesn't seem to have. So how would GDB view such a variable? How would you enter a value if you want to change it? paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 12:38:05 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:38:05 -0400 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: <8CF9DC2D-04AB-4D8A-93EF-FCC84638C6D4@comcast.net> References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> <4BB4DB06-C217-4570-BFB5-28194847BB8E@comcast.net> <8CF9DC2D-04AB-4D8A-93EF-FCC84638C6D4@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/15/22 13:31, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/15/22 12:57, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> ... >> >>>>> One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging. >>>> >>>> Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use >>>> of GDB. FAQ seems to say it can be used. >>> Yes, but presumably in C language mode. >> >> But I thought there was a comment that because of the liberal use >> of comments it was easy tracing a problem back to the COBOL source. >> >> I'll probably never find out. :-) > > Same here since I'm not a COBOL programmer. > > What I meant: COBOL has data types like decimal numbers, which C doesn't seem to have. > So how would GDB view such a variable? How would you enter a value if you want to change it? Good point. Might have to check it out just out of curiosity. Last time I used any debugger was adb on System V 30 some years ago to patch some M68K kernels. The closest I have come to that level of debugging in a long time is to use -S option and read thru the assembler generated by the compiler. bill From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 15 13:30:57 2022 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:30:57 -0700 Subject: gcobol In-Reply-To: References: <3576A002-0C85-4A5D-A0F7-CEBB2F909A73@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17156aaed1f79b2365bd0767dfb98a7be6daf28d.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Tue, 2022-03-15 at 09:12 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time). > > Yes, although that one is apparently more limited.? And GnuCOBOL is a > COBOL to C converter.? gcobol is a full front end.? One difference is > that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging. The NAG Fortran compiler is a Fortran-to-C translator. One can do Fortran-mode debugging. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 15 14:10:12 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: > On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, W2HX wrote: >> Here is some Baudot Art. Hot off the model 28 > On Tue, 15 Mar 2022, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Where is "here"? > Christian He had a 2.5M attachment of a photograph of the 28 printing it From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Mar 15 14:13:23 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:13:23 +0000 Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <0818e81b83144f79994d51d2e801d9d7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Btw I have since resent the message with a link to the .jpg but I don't think it has come through. I suspect both images and links may be verboten on this list. Ironic considering the advanced technical proclivities of the membership! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure > On Sun, 13 Mar 2022, W2HX wrote: >> Here is some Baudot Art. Hot off the model 28 > On Tue, 15 Mar 2022, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Where is "here"? > Christian He had a 2.5M attachment of a photograph of the 28 printing it From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 15 14:26:16 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: <0818e81b83144f79994d51d2e801d9d7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <0818e81b83144f79994d51d2e801d9d7@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2022, W2HX wrote: > Btw I have since resent the message with a link to the .jpg but I don't think it has come through. I suspect both images and links may be verboten on this list. Ironic considering the advanced technical proclivities of the membership! > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos I just received the resend. I haven't followed the link (because I had been able to process the original attachment), but it is there. From jesse at cypress-tech.com Tue Mar 15 21:51:05 2022 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:51:05 -0400 Subject: Interface for a HP 712 workstation - A2263-66536 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f066975-37df-5515-7056-b1e04c9144ea@cypress-tech.com> This is a long shot but would anyone have an interface card for a HP 9000 712 HP-UX workstation. The part number is A2263-66536 and its a LAN card.. If anyone has one that they want to sell, let me know. Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc jesse(at)Cypress-Tech.com From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 16 03:38:06 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 09:38:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Found! Ge 115 computer brochure In-Reply-To: References: <881583252.765817.1647066394274.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <881583252.765817.1647066394274@mail.yahoo.com> <61848760.768390.1647200949116@mail.yahoo.com> <28239e7fb7824446b7a2952aec7cf070@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2022, Fred Cisin wrote: > He had a 2.5M attachment of a photograph of the 28 printing it Since the list doesn't allow attachments, no, there was no photograph on this list. Christian From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Mar 16 04:12:02 2022 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 10:12:02 +0100 Subject: Seeking a MC75325L Dual Memory Driver In-Reply-To: References: <002001d83558$dbaafd00$9300f700$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gary Oliver via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/22 07:01, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > .snip. > > > UTSOURCE claims to have a supplier of the ceramic part "new", with a > > significantly higher shipping charge. > > > For what it's worth, I've ordered several times from UTSOURCE and the > results have been perfect.? So far, I obtained a number of the Harris > 'pdp8' chips D1-6120-9 and 6402 uarts plus Harris's weird baud-rate > generator and 6121 'port' decoder.? All have been quickly delivered and > were 100% tested by me only receipt and they all met operational specs > within specified voltage ranges. > > Surprised about shopping charges, though.? I'm in the US and the > shipping charges were quite 'nominal'. Less than $5 on a 25 chip order > of about $150. > > They are so far, "good guys" in my book. > > -Gary Same Experience here. One time I've got an defective Z8010 MMU with a crack on the underside in the middle of the chip, Email was enough, got a working replacement w/o any hassle... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 14:12:24 2022 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 15:12:24 -0400 Subject: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA Message-ID: The LSSM is very interested in this machine for public display. It would complement the museum's collection of PDP-11s and other 16 bit machines. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 16 15:56:24 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:56:24 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/16/22 15:12, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > The LSSM is very interested in this machine for public display. It would > complement the museum's collection of PDP-11s and other 16 bit machines. By "very interested", Mark means "is actively pursuing". Some of our donors are willing to foot the bill for the acquisition and subsequent retrieval trip; we've just about got it covered. For those who may be unaware, LSSM is a public minicomputer/mainframe museum in Pittsburgh, a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, that has been open for about six years. The two DG machines in this auction will have a good home with us; it is our intention to restore them and place them on public exhibit for use. We have an established track record of "getting the job done" in this context. I'm letting this crowd know in case any of the current bidders are here and just trying to keep these machines out of the scrap stream, etc. We are donor-funded and don't have a lot to spend on this. If you would like to support us in this endeavor, we accept donations by check or via PayPal, see http://www.lssmuseum.org for more information. Donations may be tax-deductible depending on your personal tax situation. Thank you for your consideration. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 16 16:19:08 2022 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East 2022 Message-ID: Exhibitors wanted! Deadline to apply is April 1. Exhibits are NOT limited to the shows two main themes. "Ever wonder about the roots of today?s technological society? Did you spend Covid nostalgically playing old video games from the past on an emulator? Do you want to get hands-on with computers ranging from the 1960s thru the early 1990s? Come to the Vintage Computer Festival East in Wall, NJ on April 22nd thru April 24th, 2022. On Friday, April 22nd, there are classes in everything from programming the Apple II computer to "learn to solder" sessions for both kids and adults. You can even solder together your own Intel based computer with our partner GlitchWorks. On Saturday and Sunday (April 23rd & 24th), join us for hands-on exhibits of vintage and classic computers along with talks from the people who were at the beginning of vintage computer history. Learn how vintage computers lead to today's world of technology becoming commonplace instead of niche hobby. This year we have two themes for our weekend talks: Women in computing and Computers for the Masses. Talks include a reunion of Commodore employees talking about their days working at Commodore Computers as well as the creators of the Commodore Vic-20 and C64. Talks by Margaret Morabito, the editor of RUN magazine. Learn the history of video game programming starting with the Atari 2600 to modern times with Burger Becky a long-time veteran of the video game industry. Consignment sales will be open all weekend where our members will be selling everything from vintage Apple to Zenith computers and everything in between, as well as parts for computers, peripherals, and other vintage computer equipment. Who knows, you may find the items to complete your nostalgic journey back to the 1980s. Will you find the personal and home computer that you have been looking for? Learn more about the Vintage Computer Festival East at https://vcfed.org/wp/events/vintage-computer-festival-east" From bryce.diedrich at intel.com Wed Mar 16 14:28:21 2022 From: bryce.diedrich at intel.com (Diedrich, Bryce) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:28:21 +0000 Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff Message-ID: Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off when I am done using it? Bryce Diedrich From richardrpope2 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 14:42:45 2022 From: richardrpope2 at gmail.com (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:42:45 -0500 Subject: Vic-20 Power off. Message-ID: Diedrich, Just unplug it. I owned one for years. Thanks, Richard Pope From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 16 14:45:07 2022 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 12:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Diedrich, Bryce via cctech wrote: > Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off when I am done using it? > Turn it off. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 16 14:58:35 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 12:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Diedrich, Bryce via cctech wrote: >> Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off when I >> am done using it? On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, geneb via cctech wrote: > Turn it off. Then disconnect the power cord from the wall. Clean the machine Place it in a sealed container with vaccum or inert gas Optional: (if you are "done using it") Post it on eBay as "R at RE" or place in a vault or drop it off at the recycling center From mark.tapley at swri.org Wed Mar 16 15:12:00 2022 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:12:00 +0000 Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <554DDBAA-C35E-416C-8564-DE903AA9C9EB@swri.edu> > On Mar 16, 2022, at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Diedrich, Bryce via cctech wrote: >>> Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off when I am done using it? > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, geneb via cctech wrote: >> Turn it off. > > Then disconnect the power cord from the wall. > Clean the machine > Place it in a sealed container with vaccum or inert gas > > Optional: (if you are "done using it") > Post it on eBay as "R at RE" > or > place in a vault > or > drop it off at the recycling center > :-) I?m somewhat curious here, too. I *think* that as long as any file-write operations have completed (ie the tape isn?t still turning) there?s no risk of long-term data corruption - that is, there?s no open files as a modern hard-disk or SSD might have that need to be closed out. Of course, anything in RAM not written to tape (or floppy) would be lost, but maybe that goes without saying. But the question still has merit. Some power supplies electrically sequence voltages relying on the 120V to still be present even though the switch is ?OFF?, so powering down by pulling the plug out of the wall is a different (and possibly more stressful) operation that flipping the machine?s switch ?OFF?. My DEC Rainbow, for example, has a 2PST switch that powers both the electronic power supply (one pole) and the cooling fan (the other pole) and obviously it?s not brilliant to turn off the fan while the electronics are still running, but in that case the ?sequencing? works the same whether you throw the 2PST switch or pull the plug out of the wall. I suspect none of this applies to the VIC-20 - the power switch just disconnects the 120VAC from the wall in the same way that pulling the wall plug out of its socket (or flipping the switch on a power-strip) would do - but I don?t know this at all. Is that the case? I think the answer is different for almost any computer, so it?s pretty tough to answer generically, but it would be kind of interesting to explore all of the variations on this. - Mark From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Mar 16 15:15:59 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:15:59 -0400 Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731dca5f-7ec3-07c1-8a33-ab528a4a06a6@alembic.crystel.com> > Turn it off. Hm. I think you have to properly sync the RAM to tape before you do that.... > > g. > From jim at photojim.ca Wed Mar 16 15:29:42 2022 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:29:42 -0600 Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <047c01d83974$91793920$b46bab60$@photojim.ca> -----Original Message----- > On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Diedrich, Bryce via cctech wrote: >> Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off >> when I am done using it? In all seriousness, in the 8-bit days I always had everything on a power bar - computer, floppy drive(s) (if applicable), monitor, printer. I'd turn everything on and off with the power bar switch. I did the same on my Amiga, too. I'd leave peripherals I didn't always use, like the printer, turned off with their own power switch much of the time. This keeps the AC power off the supplies, saving a little electricity and protecting the devices against some surges, and saves wear and tear on the power switches. Power bars are cheap and easy enough to replace if needed. And it's convenient. Jim From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Mar 16 15:37:04 2022 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 15:37:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1157809227.90210.1647463024962@email.ionos.com> > On 03/16/2022 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > > > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Diedrich, Bryce via cctech wrote: > > > Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off when I > > > am done using it? > On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, geneb via cctech wrote: > > Turn it off. > Then disconnect the power cord from the wall. > Clean the machine > Place it in a sealed container with vaccum or inert gas > > Optional: (if you are "done using it") > Post it on eBay as "R at RE" > or > place in a vault > or > drop it off at the recycling center But if you aren't completely done using it, you will likely turn it on again which is a more dangerous activity. VIC power supplies have a reputation of dying and taking the computer out with them. Many people have replaced the power supply on their VIC. The Denial wiki and forum: http://sleepingelephant.com/denial/wiki/index.php/VIC-20 is a good source of power supply options. You can also see what I did: http://wrcooke.net/classiccomputer/vicpower/vicpower.html If you really ARE done using it, you can mail it to me :-) Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 16 15:40:52 2022 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, geneb via cctech wrote: >> Turn it off. > > Then disconnect the power cord from the wall. > Clean the machine > Place it in a sealed container with vaccum or inert gas > > Optional: (if you are "done using it") > Post it on eBay as "R at RE" Partial instructions. Must include "LQQK!" if "R at RE" or "R at R3" are used. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 16 16:37:31 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:37:31 -0700 Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: <1157809227.90210.1647463024962@email.ionos.com> References: <1157809227.90210.1647463024962@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1f545c0d-f094-f66c-5a4b-609a5328793e@sydex.com> On 3/16/22 13:37, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: If the question is being asked by a person of a certain vintage, I can understand the "why" of it. Gone are the days when you simply switched off the AC power when you were finished. Nowadays, everything from cell phones to Smart TVs go through a shutdown sequence. (My TV keeps playing the last ad before it goes silent). I remember, during the 1970s, when we were rolling out our microcomputer business software, it took a lot of reminding the operators that you simply didn't toggle the power switch when you were done. I'd suggested a "soft power" switch, but was overruled by the marketing people who thought that would only encourage customers to pull the AC plug. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 16 17:05:50 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:05:50 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/16/22 16:56, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: >> The LSSM is very interested in this machine for public display.? It would >> complement the museum's collection of PDP-11s and other 16 bit machines. > > ? By "very interested", Mark means "is actively pursuing".? Some of our > donors are willing to foot the bill for the acquisition and subsequent > retrieval trip; we've just about got it covered. > > ? For those who may be unaware, LSSM is a public minicomputer/mainframe > museum in Pittsburgh, a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, > that has been open for about six years.? The two DG machines in this > auction will have a good home with us; it is our intention to restore > them and place them on public exhibit for use.? We have an established > track record of "getting the job done" in this context. > > ? I'm letting this crowd know in case any of the current bidders are > here and just trying to keep these machines out of the scrap stream, > etc.? We are donor-funded and don't have a lot to spend on this. > > ? If you would like to support us in this endeavor, we accept donations > by check or via PayPal, see http://www.lssmuseum.org for more > information.? Donations may be tax-deductible depending on your personal > tax situation. > > ? Thank you for your consideration. Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running. I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private collection. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mark.tapley at swri.org Wed Mar 16 17:49:16 2022 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 22:49:16 +0000 Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: <047c01d83974$91793920$b46bab60$@photojim.ca> References: <047c01d83974$91793920$b46bab60$@photojim.ca> Message-ID: > On Mar 16, 2022, at 3:29 PM, Jim MacKenzie via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > -----Original Message----- >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Diedrich, Bryce via cctech wrote: >>> Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off >>> when I am done using it? > > In all seriousness, in the 8-bit days I always had everything on a power bar > - computer, floppy drive(s) (if applicable), monitor, printer. I'd turn > everything on and off with the power bar switch. I did the same on my > Amiga, too. > > I'd leave peripherals I didn't always use, like the printer, turned off with > their own power switch much of the time. > > This keeps the AC power off the supplies, saving a little electricity and > protecting the devices against some surges, and saves wear and tear on the > power switches. Power bars are cheap and easy enough to replace if needed. > And it's convenient. > > Jim Mostly concur. I actually have 2 really nice pizza-box ?power bars? which are about the same footprint as a small CRT monitor. They have a single ?master? switch, so can be operated as above, and also individual switches for computer, monitor, printer, ? so that you can sequence all of the peripherals on before the computer itself if that is desireable. I?m pretty sure my TRS-80 recommended that, and the monitor it had would definitely cause a minor flicker in the lights at power-on, so it makes sense to me to get that transient over with before turning on the computer?s power supply. - Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 16 17:57:05 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 15:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: <1157809227.90210.1647463024962@email.ionos.com> References: <1157809227.90210.1647463024962@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: >>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Diedrich, Bryce via cctech wrote: >>>> Just got a Commodore Vic-20. What is the safest way to power it off when I >>>> am done using it? On Wed, 16 Mar 2022, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > If you really ARE done using it, you can mail it to me :-) And, THAT is the right answer. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 16 20:00:55 2022 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:00:55 -0700 Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: <554DDBAA-C35E-416C-8564-DE903AA9C9EB@swri.edu> References: <554DDBAA-C35E-416C-8564-DE903AA9C9EB@swri.edu> Message-ID: <37c0b9f4-00ab-2f72-305a-388dd1a46cdd@floodgap.com> > I suspect none of this applies to the VIC-20 - the power switch just disconnects the 120VAC from the wall in the same way that pulling the wall plug out of its socket (or flipping the switch on a power-strip) would do - but I don?t know this at all. Is that the case? Yes, it's just a hard cut of a voltage line. There's no software involved at all. Ditto really for any Commodore 8-bit. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge ------- From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 20:25:36 2022 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:25:36 -0500 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? Message-ID: I was visiting a new thrift store and saw a disk pack they had. I joked that mine are just fun display/conversation pieces. Do the giant drives suffer the same head crash issues that a bad zip disk can do or are these safe if someone actually wanted to see what was on them? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 16 20:27:26 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore vic 20 poweroff In-Reply-To: <37c0b9f4-00ab-2f72-305a-388dd1a46cdd@floodgap.com> References: <554DDBAA-C35E-416C-8564-DE903AA9C9EB@swri.edu> <37c0b9f4-00ab-2f72-305a-388dd1a46cdd@floodgap.com> Message-ID: It is true that on any computers with disk drives, you should wait until the disk writing activity is completely done before shutting the machine off. In some cases, that is not just waiting for the drive light to stop flashing, but also waiting for any "delayed writes" that the operating system is going to do. On floppy drives, eject the disk, or at least open the door before shutting off, because some computers send a nasty spike when the power goes away. Therefore, in general, peripherals that can be independently controlled should be turned on before the computer is turned on, and turned off after the computer is turned off. On ST-506/412 type drives, it is good to "park" the drive before shutting down. The programs to do so are often seriously incompatible with IDE drives. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 16 21:01:24 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:01:24 -0700 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> On 3/16/22 18:25, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I was visiting a new thrift store and saw a disk pack they had. I joked > that mine are just fun display/conversation pieces. > > Do the giant drives suffer the same head crash issues that a bad zip disk > can do or are these safe if someone actually wanted to see what was on them? I vividly recall a log by an operator who had a bad CDC 844 pack who proceeded to destroy 5 drives and 3 additional packs. It was detailed enough that it read like Gerard Hoffnung's "Bricklayer's Story". https://monologues.co.uk/Sketches/Bricklayers_Story.htm Be careful. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Mar 16 21:28:03 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 22:28:03 -0400 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> References: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <993444c5-f0fa-db1a-61e6-5b1f6b3e1c55@alembic.crystel.com> > I vividly recall a log by an operator who had a bad CDC 844 pack who > proceeded to destroy 5 drives and 3 additional packs. It was detailed > enough that it read like Gerard Hoffnung's "Bricklayer's Story". When I was testing one of my RL02 drives I had a head skid on the disk. Problem was the air filter was so clogged there wasn't enough air to allow the heads to fly. Replaced filter which allowed me to read the damaged pack with the worn down heads, then replaced the heads with a spare set. The heads themselves were worn to the point where they were angled.... Disclaimer: This drive and pack came from a Solarex plant where they controlled the silicon wafer cutters. In other words silicon dust everywhere. Oi. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 17 06:02:28 2022 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 06:02:28 -0500 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20220317110849.CC07927505@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:25 PM 3/16/2022, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >I was visiting a new thrift store and saw a disk pack they had. I joked >that mine are just fun display/conversation pieces. Wait.... you bought it, right? Was it $2? - John From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 17 08:27:22 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:27:22 -0400 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: <993444c5-f0fa-db1a-61e6-5b1f6b3e1c55@alembic.crystel.com> References: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> <993444c5-f0fa-db1a-61e6-5b1f6b3e1c55@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <59C1F0F7-9457-49E7-9A7D-1363FAE84177@comcast.net> > On Mar 16, 2022, at 10:28 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> I vividly recall a log by an operator who had a bad CDC 844 pack who >> proceeded to destroy 5 drives and 3 additional packs. It was detailed >> enough that it read like Gerard Hoffnung's "Bricklayer's Story". > > When I was testing one of my RL02 drives I had a head skid on the disk. Problem was the air filter was so clogged there wasn't enough air to allow the heads to fly. Huh? The way I've always understood it is that heads fly from the air entrained by the disk surface as it spins, not from air blown through the drive via the air filters. And clearly that is true for modern drives, since they are sealed. paul From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 08:30:13 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:30:13 +0800 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, Your following comment is offensive: "I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private collection." You equate private collections with black holes. I think on the contrary many private collectors do a better job at preserving old systems than "museums". I remember several "museums" which have failed in recent years. At least four of them have been much too greedy and took on way more than they could handle and in effect turned the collections into scrap. And then there is of course the sorry saga of the Living Computer "Museum" in Seattle which has sucked up a lot of old systems from private collectors. On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 6:05 AM Dave McGuire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/16/22 16:56, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: > >> The LSSM is very interested in this machine for public display. It > would > >> complement the museum's collection of PDP-11s and other 16 bit machines. > > > > By "very interested", Mark means "is actively pursuing". Some of our > > donors are willing to foot the bill for the acquisition and subsequent > > retrieval trip; we've just about got it covered. > > > > For those who may be unaware, LSSM is a public minicomputer/mainframe > > museum in Pittsburgh, a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, > > that has been open for about six years. The two DG machines in this > > auction will have a good home with us; it is our intention to restore > > them and place them on public exhibit for use. We have an established > > track record of "getting the job done" in this context. > > > > I'm letting this crowd know in case any of the current bidders are > > here and just trying to keep these machines out of the scrap stream, > > etc. We are donor-funded and don't have a lot to spend on this. > > > > If you would like to support us in this endeavor, we accept donations > > by check or via PayPal, see http://www.lssmuseum.org for more > > information. Donations may be tax-deductible depending on your personal > > tax situation. > > > > Thank you for your consideration. > > Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running. I hope these systems go > to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private > collection. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Mar 17 08:33:08 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:33:08 -0400 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: <59C1F0F7-9457-49E7-9A7D-1363FAE84177@comcast.net> References: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> <993444c5-f0fa-db1a-61e6-5b1f6b3e1c55@alembic.crystel.com> <59C1F0F7-9457-49E7-9A7D-1363FAE84177@comcast.net> Message-ID: <507e4de0-7ec9-2904-9c28-0eec53e34e10@alembic.crystel.com> Modern disks still have a filtration system and airflow within the disk. Air usually gets sucked from the edge then through the spindle and out the center. In this case I think the spinning created a lower pressure area where the heads were, resulting in the heads flying too low. I'll re-look at the RL02 but I believe air was not pulled in from outside but recirculated from behind the heads under the unit to the center spindle where it came out, into the center of the pack and across the heads. Closed system when the lid was closed. C On 3/17/2022 9:27 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 16, 2022, at 10:28 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I vividly recall a log by an operator who had a bad CDC 844 pack who >>> proceeded to destroy 5 drives and 3 additional packs. It was detailed >>> enough that it read like Gerard Hoffnung's "Bricklayer's Story". >> >> When I was testing one of my RL02 drives I had a head skid on the disk. Problem was the air filter was so clogged there wasn't enough air to allow the heads to fly. > > Huh? The way I've always understood it is that heads fly from the air entrained by the disk surface as it spins, not from air blown through the drive via the air filters. And clearly that is true for modern drives, since they are sealed. > > paul > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 17 08:38:36 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:38:36 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72C93109-2714-4E95-BC6D-416D0B466B2F@comcast.net> > On Mar 17, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Dave, > > Your following comment is offensive: > > "I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black > hole of a private collection." > > You equate private collections with black holes. I think on the contrary > many private collectors do a better job at preserving old systems than > "museums". > > I remember several "museums" which have failed in recent years. > At least four of them have been much too greedy and took on way more than > they could handle and in effect turned the collections into scrap. > > And then there is of course the sorry saga of the Living Computer "Museum" > in Seattle which has sucked up a lot of old systems from private collectors. Perhaps better than taking offense is to work with those who do a good job in this area and help them do so. Yes, some of us saw the warning signs about the LCM years ago. And I know of various musea doing things contrary to the wishes of their donors, sometimes even with the aid and comfort of the courts. But, with care, it's possible for both private collections and musea to do a good job. The "with care" is the key point, and it applies to every collector. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 09:32:16 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:32:16 -0400 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: <507e4de0-7ec9-2904-9c28-0eec53e34e10@alembic.crystel.com> References: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> <993444c5-f0fa-db1a-61e6-5b1f6b3e1c55@alembic.crystel.com> <59C1F0F7-9457-49E7-9A7D-1363FAE84177@comcast.net> <507e4de0-7ec9-2904-9c28-0eec53e34e10@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 3/17/22 09:33, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Modern disks still have a filtration system and airflow within the disk. > Air usually gets sucked from the edge then through the spindle and out > the center. In this case I think the spinning created a lower pressure > area where the heads were, resulting in the heads flying too low. > > I'll re-look at the RL02 but I believe air was not pulled in from > outside but recirculated from behind the heads under the unit to the > center spindle where it came out, into the center of the pack and across > the heads. Closed system when the lid was closed. No RL disk I ever had closed tight enough to be considered a Closed System with lid down. :-) bill From rice43 at btinternet.com Thu Mar 17 10:26:14 2022 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:26:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: References: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> <993444c5-f0fa-db1a-61e6-5b1f6b3e1c55@alembic.crystel.com> <59C1F0F7-9457-49E7-9A7D-1363FAE84177@comcast.net> <507e4de0-7ec9-2904-9c28-0eec53e34e10@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7401a518.e7bd.17f987c9085.Webtop.101@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Bill Gunshannon via cctech" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, 17 Mar, 2022 At 14:32 Subject: Re: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? On 3/17/22 09:33, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Modern disks still have a filtration system and airflow within the disk. Air usually gets sucked from the edge then through the spindle and out the center. In this case I think the spinning created a lower pressure area where the heads were, resulting in the heads flying too low. I'll re-look at the RL02 but I believe air was not pulled in from outside but recirculated from behind the heads under the unit to the center spindle where it came out, into the center of the pack and across the heads. Closed system when the lid was closed. No RL disk I ever had closed tight enough to be considered a Closed System with lid down. :-) bill That's worth noting. I have one that's in dire need of restoration, with a sizable chunk missing off the lid by the back hinges. Makes me less worried about fixing it with tape and cereal boxes Cheers, Josh rice From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 10:32:22 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:32:22 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3eba3fed-ca5d-5f9e-966a-624e0f771c31@neurotica.com> On 3/17/22 09:30, Tom Hunter wrote: > Your following comment is offensive: > > "I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the > black hole of a private collection." So sorry. > You equate private collections with black holes. I think on the contrary > many private collectors do a better job at preserving old systems than > "museums". And now you equate all museums, with your quotes suggesting illegitimacy. Your opinion of the museum community is clear. Does this mean there is no room whatsoever for any museum to earn your respect? I was a private collector for decades before I embarked on the project of building a public museum. I know the score from both sides. There is a lot of good AND a lot of bad on both sides. (I have quite a lot to say on this subject, but it would be counterproductive to discuss it further.) > I remember several "museums" which have failed in recent years. > At least four of them have been much too greedy and took on way more > than they could handle and in effect turned the collections into scrap. Oh yes, it happens all the time. If you think LSSM is in this category, I disagree. But either way, you're welcome to come and help. > And then there is of course the sorry saga of the Living Computer > "Museum" in Seattle which has sucked up a lot of old systems from > private collectors. Of course. That debacle gave the entire museum world a bad name. And, it has nothing whatsoever to do with us. In fact, I promise you that we're a lot more angry about it than you are. I'm sorry you took offense to my statement. It was said in frustration, and that was my fault. But it was not an inaccurate representation of my direct and frequent experience with many private collections. There is no need for animosity here; we were (and are) concerned for the disposition of the machines. There isn't much DG hardware out there, and very little of even that is accessible. Once again, as you suggest we're doing a poor job, you're welcome to come and help. Just give us a date and time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 11:20:51 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:20:51 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33be9c3b-35e0-107f-e797-0c686a7906bb@neurotica.com> On 3/17/22 12:10, Jay Logue wrote: > I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as > meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but > the collector".? This has nothing to do with how well the systems are > preserved. Thank you Jay, that's the biggest issue in my view, at least in the shorter term. > And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory > (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. I will try to choose my words better in the future. If I'd known that opening a museum would be met wish such hostility, from day one, I'd never have gone to the trouble. Even with my less-than-rosy opinion of human nature, I never saw it coming. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 17 11:26:09 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:26:09 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) schematics ? Message-ID: Does anyone have or know whether the schematics for the IBM 5110 or 5100 are available? And the tightly related question of whether anyone has done ROM (ROS) dumps? There are some service manuals on bitsavers, they are field-service board-level manuals, mostly step-by-step problem resolution guides, no schematics. As a system, it's small enough to be reverse-engineered, in that regard it's tractable. However, it's implemented using IBM's mid-70s PCB and IC technology, increasing an RE effort by a couple orders of magnitude if not approaching impossible, unless one were to develop some robotic probing system and software. There was a 5110 on ebay, non-working, that a friend had some interest in. It was quite a gamble at the price, in the absence of real tech info. ... Apparently it's been delisted, so my question is just curiousity at this point. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Mar 17 11:52:06 2022 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:52:06 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) schematics ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d001d83a1f$56738c80$035aa580$@net> > There was a 5110 on ebay, non-working, that a friend had some interest > in. It was quite a gamble at the price, in the absence of real tech > info. ... Apparently it's been delisted, so my question is just > curiousity at this point. I think I know the one, and at that price it was insane even for a fully working system.... An observation of the so called non-working systems on e-bay: This seems to be the latest seller scam being fuelled by crazy prices (anyone see the $3.3K IBM terminal keyboard that sold a couple of weeks ago?). I am seeing more and more items from sellers who previously would tout "great shape", "checked by our in house tech", "refurbished", whatever other BS as being listed as not-working or even powering on ("system won't turn on"). I think this is to avoid having to accept returns under the eBay MB guarantee more than anything. Items being sold for parts/not working have much less excuse for return vs. "refurbished" which have to work perfectly fine. With items selling for prices that would be "crazy" for new old stock item the eBay sellers don't feel the need to BS about condition anymore. This is mostly occurring with the warehouse guys that have suddenly found "gold" in the pile of junk in the back of the warehouse that has been sitting there since the late 90s/early 2000s. The small time guys or ordinary folks are still schilling the "worked great when last used but no guarantees" line... Anybody else seeing this as well? Just my two cents.... -Ali From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Thu Mar 17 12:04:55 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:04:55 -0500 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) schematics ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <644bbb85-cc0c-9ead-5906-d3030146f1c8@12bitsbest.com> My fathers office was in the same building as IBM in Harrison, NY in the 70's.? I was able to play with a 5110 when I visited his office. I would love to get my hands on one but I can't afford it with the PDP-8/E money pit that I have ?. On 3/17/2022 11:26 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have or know whether the schematics for the IBM 5110 or 5100 are available? > And the tightly related question of whether anyone has done ROM (ROS) dumps? > > There are some service manuals on bitsavers, they are field-service board-level manuals, mostly step-by-step problem resolution guides, no schematics. > > As a system, it's small enough to be reverse-engineered, in that regard it's tractable. However, it's implemented using IBM's mid-70s PCB and IC technology, increasing an RE effort by a couple orders of magnitude if not approaching impossible, unless one were to develop some robotic probing system and software. > > There was a 5110 on ebay, non-working, that a friend had some interest in. It was quite a gamble at the price, in the absence of real tech info. ... Apparently it's been delisted, so my question is just curiousity at this point. > From jay-tuhs9915 at toaster.com Thu Mar 17 11:10:22 2022 From: jay-tuhs9915 at toaster.com (Jay Logue) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:10:22 -0700 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but the collector".? This has nothing to do with how well the systems are preserved. And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. --Jay From jay-tuhs9915 at toaster.com Thu Mar 17 12:14:58 2022 From: jay-tuhs9915 at toaster.com (Jay Logue) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:14:58 -0700 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <33be9c3b-35e0-107f-e797-0c686a7906bb@neurotica.com> References: <33be9c3b-35e0-107f-e797-0c686a7906bb@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20220317171502.F0FC22740E@mx1.ezwind.net> On 3/17/2022 9:20 AM, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: > ? If I'd known that opening a museum would be met wish such hostility, > from day one, I'd never have gone to the trouble. Please don't say that.? Now is the time to thicken the skin and persevere. I appreciate your efforts, as do a lot of other people I suspect. Accordingly, I have just made another donation to the LSSM to help further your cause. --Jay From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 17 12:56:00 2022 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> > I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as > meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but the > collector".? This has nothing to do with how well the systems are preserved. > And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory > (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. Private collector of computers, older video game stuff, pinball machines, synth/music toys and now dabbling into 35mm stuff. A few friends in this space. Our stuff is ALWAYS going out and getting played with. From the Smithsonian (SAAM events) to MAGFest events to Vintage Computer Festival events (Remember, most of those systems on display for play are from private collectors there to share!), to events that happened in Norfolk VA and Chesapeake VA. Some of my stuff will probably be at the upcoming event in Philly (Too many games.) I mean what is a museum really? What about low attendence museums versus private collections that serve tons of people? Aren't museums private collections too? - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 12:56:10 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:56:10 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <33be9c3b-35e0-107f-e797-0c686a7906bb@neurotica.com> References: <33be9c3b-35e0-107f-e797-0c686a7906bb@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1bacc688-80ca-dad0-78d0-cdcf146f370b@neurotica.com> On 3/17/22 13:14, Jay Logue wrote: >> ? If I'd known that opening a museum would be met wish such hostility, >> from day one, I'd never have gone to the trouble. > > Please don't say that.? Now is the time to thicken the skin and persevere. > > I appreciate your efforts, as do a lot of other people I suspect. > Accordingly, I have just made another donation to the LSSM to help > further your cause. Thank you Jay, we appreciate that very much! Yeah, I've never had a very thick skin; my skills lie elsewhere. ;) We are actively looking for people to get involved in LSSM, by the way. Tech work, marketing, docent work, fundraising, social media evangelism, even dusting and cleaning are all areas in which we need help. There are no paid positions available (that could change with fundraising) but for people who want to "get into something", plus have access to a really fantastic set of machines, it might be a great thing to sink one's teeth into. Contact me if interested! Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 13:03:47 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 14:03:47 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> Message-ID: <072c289d-096f-5c79-6d94-681c84f342b2@neurotica.com> On 3/17/22 13:56, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >> I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" >> as meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone >> but the collector".? This has nothing to do with how well the systems >> are preserved. >> And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory >> (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. > > Private collector of computers, older video game stuff, pinball > machines, synth/music toys and now dabbling into 35mm stuff. A few > friends in this space. > > Our stuff is ALWAYS going out and getting played with. From the > Smithsonian (SAAM events) to MAGFest events to Vintage Computer Festival > events (Remember, most of those systems on display for play are from > private collectors there to share!), to events that happened in Norfolk > VA and Chesapeake VA. Some of my stuff will probably be at the upcoming > event in Philly (Too many games.) This is absolutely fantastic, but it's very much the exception rather than the rule, especially where big iron is concerned, which is the context here. Anything could happen, but I doubt we'll see those two DG Novas at any festivals. > I mean what is a museum really? What about low attendence museums versus > private collections that serve tons of people? Aren't museums private > collections too? In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district, as distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement, etc. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 17 13:19:29 2022 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 14:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <072c289d-096f-5c79-6d94-681c84f342b2@neurotica.com> References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> <072c289d-096f-5c79-6d94-681c84f342b2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial > storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district, as > distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement, etc. > -Dave Right, I know you have a real building and are open to the public and operate what I would consider a real museum. But where does one define a museum when it comes to randos, the small shops, the people just collecting donations for the price break, etc. Someone I know has a museum, collects stuff, no business entity for it, and it doesn't usually see the light of day. He says he plans to open a museum someday, but he has no real business plan AFAIK. He does have some stuff on display at another museum though. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Mar 17 14:03:14 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:03:14 -0400 Subject: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? In-Reply-To: <7401a518.e7bd.17f987c9085.Webtop.101@btinternet.com> References: <765aa307-891b-9ed1-c1c3-58dd7e932c9b@sydex.com> <993444c5-f0fa-db1a-61e6-5b1f6b3e1c55@alembic.crystel.com> <59C1F0F7-9457-49E7-9A7D-1363FAE84177@comcast.net> <507e4de0-7ec9-2904-9c28-0eec53e34e10@alembic.crystel.com> <7401a518.e7bd.17f987c9085.Webtop.101@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Well yeah sealed is relative but the more time you have the lid open the harder the filter needs to work. Oddly enough the diablo 44 just pulled outside air thru a filter. Guess what did not last long On March 17, 2022 11:26:14 AM EDT, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > >------ Original Message ------ >From: "Bill Gunshannon via cctech" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Thursday, 17 Mar, 2022 At 14:32 >Subject: Re: Does anyone/museum test disk packs? >On 3/17/22 09:33, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >Modern disks still have a filtration system and airflow within the disk. >Air usually gets sucked from the edge then through the spindle and out >the center. In this case I think the spinning created a lower pressure >area where the heads were, resulting in the heads flying too low. >I'll re-look at the RL02 but I believe air was not pulled in from >outside but recirculated from behind the heads under the unit to the >center spindle where it came out, into the center of the pack and across >the heads. Closed system when the lid was closed. >No RL disk I ever had closed tight enough to be considered a Closed >System with lid down. :-) >bill > > >That's worth noting. I have one that's in dire need of restoration, with >a sizable chunk missing off the lid by the back hinges. Makes me less >worried about fixing it with tape and cereal boxes >Cheers, >Josh rice > > -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 15:22:27 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:22:27 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> <072c289d-096f-5c79-6d94-681c84f342b2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <57494778-a894-1f70-8f23-a3052002210e@neurotica.com> On 3/17/22 14:19, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> ?In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial >> storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping >> district, as distinguished from the typical private collection in a >> garage, basement, etc. > > Right, I know you have a real building and are open to the public and > operate what I would consider a real museum. But where does one define a > museum when it comes to randos, the small shops, the people just > collecting donations for the price break, etc. The definition of "museum" is something that is bandied about quite a bit in museum circles, believe it or not. There is no universally-accepted definition. But when standing in someone's garage, basement, storage locker, etc, one can usually make a call that nobody would argue with. > Someone I know has a museum, collects stuff, no business entity for it, > and it doesn't usually see the light of day. He says he plans to open a > museum someday, but he has no real business plan AFAIK. He does have > some stuff on display at another museum though. I would posit that he does not have a museum; he has a collection and a wish. When and if that wish pans out, and I hope it does, then he will have a museum. But not before. It CAN happen. For decades I had a collection and a wish. Now there's a museum that showcases part of that collection, and parts of others' collections, and things of its own. It's not easy to do, but it is possible. Encourage your friend! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jay-tuhs9915 at toaster.com Thu Mar 17 14:15:26 2022 From: jay-tuhs9915 at toaster.com (Jay Logue) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:15:26 -0700 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> Message-ID: <20220317191532.CF6364E6DD@mx2.ezwind.net> On 3/17/2022 10:56 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > Our stuff is ALWAYS going out and getting played with. This is great!? I very much applaud you doing this.? In a similar vein, I am also trying to get to a point where I can share my very meager "collection" with others who might appreciate it. I certainly understand that there exists a continuum of private collectors/museums with different attitudes towards sharing, from those like yourself who openly and enthusiastically share their possessions, to those who choose to hide them away and let them collect dust.? The point of my earlier message was simply to say that I support the former while regretting the latter. --Jay From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 17 15:51:20 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:51:20 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <57494778-a894-1f70-8f23-a3052002210e@neurotica.com> References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> <072c289d-096f-5c79-6d94-681c84f342b2@neurotica.com> <57494778-a894-1f70-8f23-a3052002210e@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2054DF89-E73D-4FE9-997C-BD31ABDC94CA@comcast.net> > On Mar 17, 2022, at 4:22 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/17/22 14:19, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district, as distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement, etc. >> Right, I know you have a real building and are open to the public and operate what I would consider a real museum. That's a good definition. But the fact that an organization has a building, is open to the public, and has a separate legal identity, doesn't necessarily protect adequately. The LCM fits that definition, I believe, yet it long acted as a gray hole, and now seems to have gone essentially full black. For that matter, there are examples in "traditional" musea, as in places with paintings and sculptures in them, going rogue. I remember an infamous court case in the USA involving a museum obliged to be in a particular town, by its founding documents, yet it decided unilaterally to pick up and move and somehow got a court to agree it could do so. Another consideration is how items get removed from the collection. Often there is a storage building that holds much of the collection, while the actual museum displays only a fraction. That's a consideration if access is a concern. A bigger question is how a museum can decide to get rid of ("deaccess" I think is the buzzword used) things in its collection, and if it does so, what becomes of them. paul From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Mar 17 16:27:48 2022 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:27:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <862439751.25669.1647552468065@mail.yahoo.com> ?> Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running.? I hope these systems go > to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private > >collection. > I think that next time, you should consider to rephrase this in a more considerate way. There are public museums on both sides of the great pond where stuff is stored in the basements for preservation and does not become accessible for years and years, even if one asks for it. And I am not only meaning hardware or software, I also mean documentation (this is based on personal experience). In my point of view, black holes exist in private as well as public museums, regardless of the different reasons for this. Some do a great job in making their collection accessible in public either for real or online via a website, and some don't. It just depends from case to case and generalising here doesn't seem appropriate. Cheers, Pierre From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 17 16:37:09 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:37:09 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <862439751.25669.1647552468065@mail.yahoo.com> References: <862439751.25669.1647552468065@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <34aa0a15-cf12-a74e-839d-b704d6b9e4d9@neurotica.com> On 3/17/22 17:27, P Gebhardt wrote: > ?> Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running.? I hope these systems go >> to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private >> >> collection. >> > I think that next time, you should consider to rephrase this in a more considerate way. There are public museums on both sides of the great pond where stuff is stored in the basements for preservation and does not become accessible for years and years, even if one asks for it. And I am not only meaning hardware or software, I also mean documentation (this is based on personal experience). In my point of view, black holes exist in private as well as public museums, regardless of the different reasons for this. Some do a great job in making their collection accessible in public either for real or online via a website, and some don't. It just depends from case to case and generalising here doesn't seem appropriate. You are correct, and I will try harder. LSSM does, like most museums, have things in storage that are not always on exhibit. Most museums have more exhibits than they have space to show off at any one time. We rotate them every other year or so, but still, there are things even at LSSM that aren't readily visible. (of course you can always request a visit to the storage building around the corner.. ;)) As I've said privately today to three people who have emailed me off-list about this, since starting the LSSM project about ten years ago, I've seen many, probably 25, situations in which widows have junked their dead spouse's prized computer hardware. We've all heard of those situations, but as we've been actively looking for hardware, we see it a lot more, and even I was shocked about just how common this actually is. This is a fate that seems to befall most private collections. That, combined with rodent infestations, rust, etc resulting from the typical garage/barn/shed/basement storage that we've seen over and over, has impacted my opinion of private collections. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Mar 17 19:02:50 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:02:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) Message-ID: Was the computer auction in question a 5100 or a 5110? Presently I see there is a 5110-C for sale https://www.ebay.com/itm/294865912729 There were also a 5110 with 8" external drives and a printer which sold: https://www.ebay.com/itm/304377532685 Don Resor From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 17 19:31:01 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 20:31:01 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> Message-ID: <88762BD1-16C4-4F9F-BA93-B1FF1D958C82@comcast.net> > On Mar 17, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I mean what is a museum really? What about low attendence museums versus private collections that serve tons of people? Aren't museums private collections too? Some museums are government establishments, but they don't necessarily play any better than any other collector. paul From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 17 19:56:41 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:56:41 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20DA0C44-04C8-4B79-B69C-64977A62978B@shaw.ca> On 2022-Mar-17, at 5:02 PM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Was the computer auction in question a 5100 or a 5110? > > Presently I see there is a 5110-C for sale > https://www.ebay.com/itm/294865912729 Yes, that was/is the one. So it has been relisted. It had been listed as a 5100 or 5100-C earlier, then delisted, and I couldn't find a new listing for anything like a 5100 or 5110 this morning. It might be easy to fix. Or it might have the computing potential of a doorstop. > There were also a 5110 with 8" external drives and a printer which sold: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/304377532685 From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Mar 17 22:56:19 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 20:56:19 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) In-Reply-To: <20DA0C44-04C8-4B79-B69C-64977A62978B@shaw.ca> References: <20DA0C44-04C8-4B79-B69C-64977A62978B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: It looks as if it needs at least a replacement CRT. From one image it appears to be phosphor is blown away in the middle screen. The only way I know of this happening, is the neck of the CRT, or the evacuation nipple has been cracked/broken. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 5:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM 5110 (5100) On 2022-Mar-17, at 5:02 PM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Was the computer auction in question a 5100 or a 5110? > > Presently I see there is a 5110-C for sale > https://www.ebay.com/itm/294865912729 Yes, that was/is the one. So it has been relisted. It had been listed as a 5100 or 5100-C earlier, then delisted, and I couldn't find a new listing for anything like a 5100 or 5110 this morning. It might be easy to fix. Or it might have the computing potential of a doorstop. > There were also a 5110 with 8" external drives and a printer which sold: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/304377532685 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 17 23:09:29 2022 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:09:29 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) In-Reply-To: <20DA0C44-04C8-4B79-B69C-64977A62978B@shaw.ca> References: <20DA0C44-04C8-4B79-B69C-64977A62978B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <592cc8a9-a0bb-760d-ba29-ab513b161690@shiresoft.com> But it has APL (you can tell by the keyboard *and* the BASIC/APL switch). I can't say if the price is worth it for that...but having the APL ROS and the keytops has some value. TTFN - Guy On 3/17/22 17:56, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-Mar-17, at 5:02 PM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: >> Was the computer auction in question a 5100 or a 5110? >> >> Presently I see there is a 5110-C for sale >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/294865912729 > Yes, that was/is the one. So it has been relisted. It had been listed as a 5100 or 5100-C earlier, then delisted, and I couldn't find a new listing for anything like a 5100 or 5110 this morning. > > It might be easy to fix. Or it might have the computing potential of a doorstop. > > >> There were also a 5110 with 8" external drives and a printer which sold: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/304377532685 -- TTFN - Guy From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 17 23:35:40 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:35:40 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) In-Reply-To: <592cc8a9-a0bb-760d-ba29-ab513b161690@shiresoft.com> References: <20DA0C44-04C8-4B79-B69C-64977A62978B@shaw.ca> <592cc8a9-a0bb-760d-ba29-ab513b161690@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 2022-Mar-17, at 9:09 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > But it has APL (you can tell by the keyboard *and* the BASIC/APL switch). > > I can't say if the price is worth it for that...but having the APL ROS and the keytops has some value. Yes, that is the particular interest in this unit by my friend. Do you have any tech knowledge of these models? Was the ROS mask-programmed ROMS? standard types or IBM special? I saw a web page or two with failed units that claimed the fault was the ROS but have no idea from what analysis they believe it to be the ROS. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 17 23:48:47 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:48:47 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) In-Reply-To: References: <20DA0C44-04C8-4B79-B69C-64977A62978B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 2022-Mar-17, at 8:56 PM, D. Resor wrote: > It looks as if it needs at least a replacement CRT. From one image it > appears to be phosphor is blown away in the middle screen. The only way I > know of this happening, is the neck of the CRT, or the evacuation nipple has > been cracked/broken. Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't looked closely enough previously to note it. ... there's a 5" CRT monitor from some 70's-era Olivetti machine in my junk box, though it's hard to tell whether it may be a different aspect ratio ... From rice43 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 18 03:19:49 2022 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 08:19:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <34aa0a15-cf12-a74e-839d-b704d6b9e4d9@neurotica.com> References: <862439751.25669.1647552468065@mail.yahoo.com> <34aa0a15-cf12-a74e-839d-b704d6b9e4d9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <21cbca8b.f44d.17f9c1c85c0.Webtop.101@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave McGuire via cctalk" To: "P Gebhardt" ; "cctalk" Sent: Thursday, 17 Mar, 2022 At 21:37 Subject: Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA As I've said privately today to three people who have emailed me off-list about this, since starting the LSSM project about ten years ago, I've seen many, probably 25, situations in which widows have junked their dead spouse's prized computer hardware. We've all heard of those situations, but as we've been actively looking for hardware, we see it a lot more, and even I was shocked about just how common this actually is. This is a fate that seems to befall most private collections. That, combined with rodent infestations, rust, etc resulting from the typical garage/barn/shed/basement storage that we've seen over and over, has impacted my opinion of private collections. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA These are all valid concerns, especially since some collectors generally have eyes bigger then their belly, wanting more machines than they have the appropriate storage for. I fear i have been just as guilty (though i generally keep anything of value outside of the rat infested shed) However, there are a great many people who do try and keep their collections indoors and on display. Obviously, this is much easier with machines like the 80's micros than it is with 60's and 70's big iron and minicomputers, which is likely the reason (plus larger production volumes) that so many machines of the 80's and beyond survive and are relatively plentiful. It's also rather unfair to defame private collectors. A lot of them (especially the ones that come out of barns, leaky sheds, garages and basements) were the ones who saved the equipment from the scrappers in the first place. Much of this large system equipment survives (maybe in poor condition) purely because of the private collector. I believe that whilst climate controlled museums are ultimately the best place for functional equipment (where knowledge and skills can easily be pooled), the private collector has an important role in the preservation of equipment as well. Cheers, Josh Rice From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 18 03:31:12 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 09:31:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) schematics ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2022, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Does anyone have or know whether the schematics for the IBM 5110 or 5100 > are available? No, there are no schematics, only block diagrams. I had created the schematics for the Async/Serial I/O card years ago (it's a TTL only board) > And the tightly related question of whether anyone has done ROM (ROS) > dumps? Yes. I've described the procedure a couple of times in the past ;-) And FYI, I have also written a 5110 emulator. And I also have reverse engineered the opcodes (at a time where the 5100 MIM was not available online). Everything (ROS listings, dumps, emulator etc) is on our FTP server as usual. You'll also find my Kermit program and Infocom interpreter there, both written in PALM assembler. Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 18 11:53:24 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:53:24 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <21cbca8b.f44d.17f9c1c85c0.Webtop.101@btinternet.com> References: <862439751.25669.1647552468065@mail.yahoo.com> <34aa0a15-cf12-a74e-839d-b704d6b9e4d9@neurotica.com> <21cbca8b.f44d.17f9c1c85c0.Webtop.101@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <2d976cb7-ad1b-4d65-3737-06cba357f2bb@neurotica.com> On 3/18/22 04:19, Joshua Rice wrote: > These are all valid concerns, especially since some collectors generally > have eyes bigger then their belly, wanting more machines than they have > the appropriate storage for. I fear i have been just as guilty (though i > generally keep anything of value outside of the rat infested shed) Yes, that seems common. I myself have been guilty of that in the past. It's a slippery slope. > However, there are a great many people who do try and keep their > collections indoors and on display. Obviously, this is much easier with > machines like the 80's micros than it is with 60's and 70's big iron and > minicomputers, which is likely the reason (plus larger production > volumes) that so many machines of the 80's and beyond survive and are > relatively plentiful. Agreed 100%. > It's also rather unfair to defame private collectors. A lot of them > (especially the ones that come out of barns, leaky sheds, garages and > basements) were the ones who saved the equipment from the scrappers in > the first place. Much of this large system equipment survives (maybe in > poor condition) purely because of the private collector. I believe that > whilst climate controlled museums are ultimately the best place for > functional equipment (where knowledge and skills can easily be pooled), > the private collector has an important role in the preservation of > equipment as well. My comments are borne of frustration. It is very hard to do what we're doing at LSSM, a lot harder than most people realize. A lot harder than I thought it'd be, for that matter. It's being made even harder by a lot of collectors that aren't conscientious about how they store things and how there usually aren't any estate disposition plans. You suggest that sitting in a leaky rodent-infested barn is better than the machine just being sent to a scrapper, and I agree. But as someone who has cleaned up far more of those "barn find" machines than just about anyone else here, it does get frustrating after awhile. Is it really so hard to arrange for appropriate storage? Surely you understand my position. I've been doing this at great personal expense, financial and otherwise, not for myself, but for the technology and for the public...including everyone here. But a lot of things, like this situation, make it pretty hard to maintain that motivation. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 18 13:20:44 2022 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 18:20:44 +0000 Subject: WTD - Oregon/Taumetric M68000 Pascal and Cross Assembler (VAX/VMS) Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone happen to have a copy of these squirrelled away? - Oregon Pascal M68000 -- cross compiler for VAX (or any other host platform). Probably called "P68.EXE" or something similar. - Oregon / Taumetric M68000 Cross Assembler for VAX (or any other). Probably called "MASM.EXE" or similar. - Oregon / Taumetric M68000 Linker for VAX (or any other). Probably called "MIL.EXE" or similar. The assembler and linker might be ports of Motorola's M68KMASM and M68KLINK -- so something equivalent which takes the Motorola-format .SA files and spits out .RO files should work instead. I've been tasked with getting some ancient code building again, and as usually happens, the "backup" is incomplete... Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk https://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 12:31:28 2022 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:31:28 -0000 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Message-ID: <846e01d83aee$000e6340$002b29c0$@gmail.com> I missed a lot of this because g-mail decided to bounce some e-mails. I would like to make a couple of observations:- 1. Many real accredited museums have a smaller percentage of their artifacts on display than private collectors. In the UK both TNMOC and the Science Museum Group have large quantities of hardware that is not displayed. The science museum usually catalogues it but it is not really helpful if you can't see it. 2. All the private collectors I know are very happy to show and demonstrate what they have. It might not be catalogued so well but generally they want to show it off.... Dave G4UGM (Now feeling guilty because what I have is neither catalogued or on display) From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 18 13:46:55 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 14:46:55 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer In-Reply-To: <846e01d83aee$000e6340$002b29c0$@gmail.com> References: <846e01d83aee$000e6340$002b29c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6D05FAF3-522C-49EB-954B-5C50392017B1@comcast.net> > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:31 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > > I missed a lot of this because g-mail decided to bounce some e-mails. > > I would like to make a couple of observations:- > > 1. Many real accredited museums have a smaller percentage of their artifacts > on display than private collectors. In the UK both TNMOC and the Science > Museum Group have large quantities of hardware that is not displayed. > The science museum usually catalogues it but it is not really helpful if you > can't see it. They might also get rid of stuff, not necessarily for an obvious reason. I saw a case of this recently, in the Dutch museum Boerhaave in Leiden, which is a national science-related museum. For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso Idzerda. Some time recently it was removed from the museum collection. In that case it went back to the organization it came from, the Picture and Sound Institute, but whether it will be displayed by them is not clear. In any case, that's an example of the uncertain future of artefacts in museum collections. paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Mar 18 14:15:20 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:15:20 +0000 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer In-Reply-To: <6D05FAF3-522C-49EB-954B-5C50392017B1@comcast.net> References: <846e01d83aee$000e6340$002b29c0$@gmail.com> <6D05FAF3-522C-49EB-954B-5C50392017B1@comcast.net> Message-ID: > For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso Idzerda. Interesting as that would have predated the invention of FM by Edwin Howard Armstrong in 1933 (or at least what we thought was the invention). But notably, vacuum tube technology that existed in 1919 might be hard-pressed to be up to the task. I look forward to doing some more research on this topic. Thanks! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 2:47 PM To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer They might also get rid of stuff, not necessarily for an obvious reason. I saw a case of this recently, in the Dutch museum Boerhaave in Leiden, which is a national science-related museum. For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso Idzerda. Some time recently it was removed from the museum collection. In that case it went back to the organization it came from, the Picture and Sound Institute, but whether it will be displayed by them is not clear. In any case, that's an example of the uncertain future of artefacts in museum collections. paul From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Mar 18 15:11:50 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 13:11:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 (5100) schematics ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86245EBC-CBB4-4584-9C6B-95EF388A9A3B@shaw.ca> On 2022-Mar-18, at 1:31 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 17 Mar 2022, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Does anyone have or know whether the schematics for the IBM 5110 or 5100 are available? > > No, there are no schematics, only block diagrams. I had created the schematics for the Async/Serial I/O card years ago (it's a TTL only board) > >> And the tightly related question of whether anyone has done ROM (ROS) dumps? > > Yes. I've described the procedure a couple of times in the past ;-) > And FYI, I have also written a 5110 emulator. And I also have reverse engineered the opcodes (at a time where the 5100 MIM was not available online). > Everything (ROS listings, dumps, emulator etc) is on our FTP server as usual. You'll also find my Kermit program and Infocom interpreter there, both written in PALM assembler. Thanks, found the directories and disassembly files, I'll forward this on. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 18 15:46:40 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:46:40 -0400 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer In-Reply-To: References: <846e01d83aee$000e6340$002b29c0$@gmail.com> <6D05FAF3-522C-49EB-954B-5C50392017B1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3E53A6CC-7455-4B56-A04F-A3A66A787318@comcast.net> > On Mar 18, 2022, at 3:15 PM, W2HX wrote: > >> For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso Idzerda. > > Interesting as that would have predated the invention of FM by Edwin Howard Armstrong in 1933 (or at least what we thought was the invention). But notably, vacuum tube technology that existed in 1919 might be hard-pressed to be up to the task. I look forward to doing some more research on this topic. Thanks! FWIW, in an article I wrote about Idzerda's work I mentioned an analogy: Leif Eriksson's discovery of America, well before the journeys of Columbus. The difference is that Eriksson's travels did not produce any historic followup while Columbus's travels did. Similarly, Idzerda's work was a technological dead end; while a few additional transmitters were built from his design, it disappeared in the late 1920s, and the reactance modulator used by Armstrong was a better technology. In the world of computers you can apply this analogy as well; the Analytical Engine, the ABC computer, and perhaps Zuse's computers would be examples of early work that didn't produce any real descendants. Somewhat different but similar are all the various dead end technology bits, from core rope ROM to bubble memory to magnetic card memory, all things that had a brief and very limited existence but faded and left no progeny. paul From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Mar 18 21:25:43 2022 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:25:43 +0000 Subject: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA In-Reply-To: <57494778-a894-1f70-8f23-a3052002210e@neurotica.com> References: <20220317161027.563F4273EF@mx1.ezwind.net> <1c923c3b-93a2-6d61-f463-7d9abfd2a1@757.org> <072c289d-096f-5c79-6d94-681c84f342b2@neurotica.com> <57494778-a894-1f70-8f23-a3052002210e@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20220319022543.GB29646@lonesome.com> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 04:22:27PM -0400, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: > I would posit that he does not have a museum; he has a collection > and a wish. When and if that wish pans out, and I hope it does, > then he will have a museum. But not before. +1. That's a positive way to look at it. mcl From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 19 18:10:14 2022 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 16:10:14 -0700 Subject: restoring a Silent 700 Model 765 Message-ID: <05880e6b-299d-ccba-915c-a7aa7d49fa16@floodgap.com> I found my old Model 745 in storage and other than needing a print head clean and adjusting the printer contrast, it works splendidly. It has the manual and I've got some plugs to build it an RS-232 connector when I find some more round tuits. This whetted my appetite for other 700s, including the (in)famous bubble memory 763/765. I was able to land a set of 765 ASRs. One of them came with Telenet transcripts from The Source (various logins from 1978 to 1980), which was really cool reading. I'll scan these. However, neither of them work. Both power on, but they immediately go into COMMAND mode and sit there, which appears to be abnormal behaviour based on what I'm reading in the service manual (thanks, Bitsavers!). The NUM LOCK switch works and the paper advance works, but nothing else appears to elicit a response. One of them advances the page and acts like it's printing the command prompt, but the other one doesn't even do that. The service manual suggests I need to replace both the TMS 9980 and 8080 boards, which would really suck. I'm hopeful that the one that's "more active" has a working 9980 board and I can use the 8080 board from the other one. (I haven't even gotten to the bubble memory yet.) Anyone repaired these units or have an idea of a repair strategy other than replace damn near everything? TELENET 303 8A TERMINAL= @C 301 24 301 24 CONNECTED DIALCOM NETWORK SYSTEM 10 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. -- da Vinci --------------------- From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Mar 19 21:42:46 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 02:42:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: restoring a Silent 700 Model 765 In-Reply-To: <05880e6b-299d-ccba-915c-a7aa7d49fa16@floodgap.com> References: <05880e6b-299d-ccba-915c-a7aa7d49fa16@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <282151267.441521.1647744166831@mail.yahoo.com> I understand? many Bubble memoryTi's were used by press. Does anyone have adverts or articles on this?? Need some backup material for our tools of the journalist section? weave one of the units to put in the displayThanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 4:09 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: I found my old Model 745 in storage and other than needing a print head clean and adjusting the printer contrast, it works splendidly. It has the manual and I've got some plugs to build it an RS-232 connector when I find some more round tuits. This whetted my appetite for other 700s, including the (in)famous bubble memory 763/765. I was able to land a set of 765 ASRs. One of them came with Telenet transcripts from The Source (various logins from 1978 to 1980), which was really cool reading. I'll scan these. However, neither of them work. Both power on, but they immediately go into COMMAND mode and sit there, which appears to be abnormal behaviour based on what I'm reading in the service manual (thanks, Bitsavers!). The NUM LOCK switch works and the paper advance works, but nothing else appears to elicit a response. One of them advances the page and acts like it's printing the command prompt, but the other one doesn't even do that. The service manual suggests I need to replace both the TMS 9980 and 8080 boards, which would really suck. I'm hopeful that the one that's "more active" has a working 9980 board and I can use the 8080 board from the other one. (I haven't even gotten to the bubble memory yet.) Anyone repaired these units or have an idea of a repair strategy other than replace damn near everything? TELENET 303 8A TERMINAL= @C 301 24 301 24 CONNECTED DIALCOM NETWORK SYSTEM 10 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. -- da Vinci --------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 20 00:40:33 2022 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:40:33 -0700 Subject: restoring a Silent 700 Model 765 In-Reply-To: <282151267.441521.1647744166831@mail.yahoo.com> References: <05880e6b-299d-ccba-915c-a7aa7d49fa16@floodgap.com> <282151267.441521.1647744166831@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3d75e709-5422-aba6-34dc-7ccac1473add@floodgap.com> > I understand? many Bubble memoryTi's were used by press. Does anyone have > adverts or articles on this?? Need some backup material for our tools of the > journalist section? weave one of the units to put in the display I'm not sure if the prior owner was a writer or just an interested subscriber, but there are United Press International transcripts here. On one of them (s)he compares what was entered into the bubble memory with what actually got transmitted. Couldn't say much more about it though from these. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable. -- David Cantrell From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 20 00:42:42 2022 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:42:42 -0700 Subject: restoring a Silent 700 Model 765 In-Reply-To: References: <05880e6b-299d-ccba-915c-a7aa7d49fa16@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4c1d9e0d-4aba-df59-d24b-520e3a9225ff@floodgap.com> >> 301 24 CONNECTED >> DIALCOM NETWORK SYSTEM 10 >> > Please do scan these! It is hard as hell getting info on The Source > and also on Dialcom! Yes, I definitely plan to transcribe them. There is potentially some copyrighted material here but I think I can just excerpt that and still include all the rest of the login process, etc. Still, would be nice to get the terminal itself working and see what's in the ASR's bubble memory, assuming that's still operational, so any ideas people have would be appreciated. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ---- From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Mar 20 01:07:50 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 06:07:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: restoring a Silent 700 Model 765 In-Reply-To: <3d75e709-5422-aba6-34dc-7ccac1473add@floodgap.com> References: <05880e6b-299d-ccba-915c-a7aa7d49fa16@floodgap.com> <282151267.441521.1647744166831@mail.yahoo.com> <3d75e709-5422-aba6-34dc-7ccac1473add@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <367200517.444814.1647756470222@mail.yahoo.com> incoming UPI or? outgoing? ?yea? remember? ?source? was? big? NY times? database? as one selling? features and? ?these may hive been UPI? stories? from? that or??? maybe not!!!? ?Be interesting? to? see!? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/19/2022 10:40:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? > I understand? many Bubble memoryTi's were used by press. Does anyone have > adverts or articles on this?? Need some backup material for our tools of the > journalist section? weave one of the units to put in the display I'm not sure if the prior owner was a writer or just an interested subscriber, but there are United Press International transcripts here. On one of them (s)he compares what was entered into the bubble memory with what actually got transmitted. Couldn't say much more about it though from these. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable. -- David Cantrell From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Mar 20 20:59:57 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:59:57 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? Message-ID: I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the image. Thanks Don Resor From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 20 21:46:05 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 21:46:05 -0500 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7097f912-62a6-8bb6-0924-ed3bd8adfadb@pico-systems.com> On 3/20/22 20:59, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. > > Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? Yes, they are.? But, very likely standard 27xx series of EPROMS, all you need to know are how many address bits there are and you should be able to cross-refence them to standard Intel EPROMs. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 > Jon From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Mar 20 22:05:00 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 20:05:00 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <510016439.298722.1647828786566@email.ionos.com> References: <510016439.298722.1647828786566@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: This is the CPU board out of a first generation 1982-83 IBM Electronic 85 Typewriter (Electronics Driven Selectric). I was looking to archive the software/firmware from these. The machine was exposed to some dampness. Corrosion has ensued on the interface connector between the CPU and driver boards. The next year, more energy efficient memory ICs were used. Memory power failure back up only consisted of 3 AA batteries and could last up to one year. The predecessor (this board) required 6 AA size Nicads and would only retain memory for a few hours. IBM using their apparently very large stock of OLD aluminum covered ICs in as many products possible I guess. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 7:13 PM To: D. Resor Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > On 03/20/2022 8:59 PM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > > I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. > > Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 > > No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view > the image. > > Thanks > > Don Resor More details would help. What is the board? Do you know at what address in the PC memory map they fit? Based on the info you gave and the picture I would bet $1 they are standard 2764 chips. The 2764 was the first standard chip to have 28 pins. The size of the die visible through the quartz window is consistent with 2764 (as opposed to 27128 or 27256) and the fact there is room for 3 which would give 24K total. The PC didn't have a lot of places in the memory map that would allow more than 24K. Three 27128s would be 48K (a LOT in those days) and the 27256 would be 96K. I can't help with the part numbers. But I doubt they are IBM proprietary. The vast majority of chips used in the early PC line were standard from other companies. Will From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Mar 20 20:53:05 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:53:05 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? Message-ID: I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the image. Thanks Don Resor From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Mar 21 02:50:10 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:50:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: NEW CONTRIBUTION TO US CALL-A-COMPUTEER BIG 3 INCH 3 RING AS NEW TIMESHARE MANUAL References: <420707503.495990.1647849010202.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420707503.495990.1647849010202@mail.yahoo.com> NEW CONTRIBUTION TO US "CALL-A-COMPUTER"? PILLSBURY? TIMESHARE...? ?WHAT? SYSTEM WAS? THIS? RUN ON ?? ? ?IT IS A? BIG 3 INCH 3 RING AS NEW TIMESHARE MANUAL.? THANKS? ED#? ? SMECC MUSEUM From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 18:49:38 2022 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:49:38 +0000 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the image. Thanks Don Resor From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 19:19:05 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:19:05 -0300 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <182c8659-e778-fd8c-d968-26a2251f1872@gmail.com> They won't be 2732 as the EPROM in the picture has 28 pins, but 2732 is a 24 pin package 2764, 27128, 27256 and 27512 are all in 28 pin packages. The 8519602 does look like an IBM house number but unfortunately it is not listed in the cross reference I have . I would agree it should be fairly easy to figure out what they are by looking at the circuitry surrounding them.? The unpopulated U3 position beside the EPROM looks like it might be for another EPROM and it looks to have pins 26,27,and 28 all tied together on everything larger than a 2764, pin 26 is A13 so my guess would be 2764.? If you read a 2764 as a 27128 the upper and lower halves of the image will be identical because the A13 pin is not connected on a 2764 so you would effectively read the EPROM twice.? Pin 26 tied high would eliminate anything larger than a 2764. Paul. On 2022-03-21 20:49, dwight via cctalk wrote: > The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. > Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. > > Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 > > No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the > image. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 20:54:29 2022 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 01:54:29 +0000 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <182c8659-e778-fd8c-d968-26a2251f1872@gmail.com> References: <182c8659-e778-fd8c-d968-26a2251f1872@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, you are correct. I'm a bad counter. I knew a 2732 was a 24 but suffer from brain rot. Still it is likely a standard Intel part. At most it may have a pin swap on something like a select pin. Measuring the pins, will tell which pins are tied and which are active. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Berger via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 5:19 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? They won't be 2732 as the EPROM in the picture has 28 pins, but 2732 is a 24 pin package 2764, 27128, 27256 and 27512 are all in 28 pin packages. The 8519602 does look like an IBM house number but unfortunately it is not listed in the cross reference I have . I would agree it should be fairly easy to figure out what they are by looking at the circuitry surrounding them. The unpopulated U3 position beside the EPROM looks like it might be for another EPROM and it looks to have pins 26,27,and 28 all tied together on everything larger than a 2764, pin 26 is A13 so my guess would be 2764. If you read a 2764 as a 27128 the upper and lower halves of the image will be identical because the A13 pin is not connected on a 2764 so you would effectively read the EPROM twice. Pin 26 tied high would eliminate anything larger than a 2764. Paul. On 2022-03-21 20:49, dwight via cctalk wrote: > The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. > Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. > > Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 > > No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the > image. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 21 22:25:40 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 20:25:40 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> The PROMs are most likely house-labeled Intel commodity parts with JEDEC-standard pinouts, so it should be fairly easy, using an EPROM reader, to figure out if these are 8KB, 16KB, 32KB or 64KB devices. I suppose one could find representative known Intel samples and compare the appearance "under the window", but I've never done that. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 23:17:11 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:17:11 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:25 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > The PROMs are most likely house-labeled Intel commodity parts with > JEDEC-standard pinouts, so it should be fairly easy, using an EPROM > reader, to figure out if these are 8KB, 16KB, 32KB or 64KB devices. Some device programmers can read the manufacturer and device ID codes from a device, if they are implemented. That would be another way to check for a Intel standard part. Intel 2764 - 89h / 02h Intel 2764A - 89h / 08h Intel 27C64 - 89h / 07h Intel 27128 - 89h / 83h Intel 27128A - 89h / 89h Intel 27C128 - 89h / FCh Intel 27256 - 89h / 04h Intel 27C256 - 89h / 8Ch Intel 27512 - 89h / 0Dh Intel 27C512 - 89h / FDh From organlists1 at sonic.net Tue Mar 22 05:03:31 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 03:03:31 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've taken and uploaded some larger easy to view images of the processor board component and solder sides. One plus is the eproms are socketed. I've uploaded an image showing the silk screening stamp on the underside of the eproms. Now that I look closer at the Power Supply PWB I see it too is filled with proprietarily marked parts (sigh). Big Blue's curse continues. Interestingly Xerox didn?t do this with the Star 6085 Workstation. The full service manuals are available for download. I believe the 8010 is the same way. I suppose I can email my contact at IBM archives and inquire about circuit diagrams... It never hurts to ask. I have the MiniPro TL866II Plus programmer. It does have the ability to read the ID of ICs. Setup requires you first select IC p/n number from the list, and then it verifies the data prior to a read or write. It would be nice if it could ID the IC automatically. I realize there are probably too many variables to do this safely without risk of destroying the EPROM and/or the data written on it. https://www.dropbox.com/s/juvn0ahnwp51k80/ProcessorPWBCompSide1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4mqpxd9ksnciil/ProcessorPWBSolderSide1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl26dkv3jjuip0u/PromUnderside1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqok0avoqqumyuq/PowerSpplyPWB1.jpg?dl=0 Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Glen Slick via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 9:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:25 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > The PROMs are most likely house-labeled Intel commodity parts with > JEDEC-standard pinouts, so it should be fairly easy, using an EPROM > reader, to figure out if these are 8KB, 16KB, 32KB or 64KB devices. Some device programmers can read the manufacturer and device ID codes from a device, if they are implemented. That would be another way to check for a Intel standard part. Intel 2764 - 89h / 02h Intel 2764A - 89h / 08h Intel 27C64 - 89h / 07h Intel 27128 - 89h / 83h Intel 27128A - 89h / 89h Intel 27C128 - 89h / FCh Intel 27256 - 89h / 04h Intel 27C256 - 89h / 8Ch Intel 27512 - 89h / 0Dh Intel 27C512 - 89h / FDh From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 09:29:51 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:29:51 -0300 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2eaedd67-8fef-95b3-5b88-d8ff6d69ea8e@gmail.com> The only new information I can gather from those picture is it would appear that pins 1 and 28? of the EPROMs is tied together and since 28 is Vcc, connected to +5V this would eliminate 27512 as pin 1 on a 27512 is A15, but on 2764, 27128, and 27256 it is Vpp and would normally be tied to +5V for read.? As I mentioned previously the empty position has pin 26, 27, and 28 tied together, if the positions that are populated with sockets are the same that would eliminate 27128 and 27256 as well, and I would stand by my previous suggestion that it is 2764.? I would suggest that you check to see if 26 and 27 are connected to pin 28 on those sockets to verify. Paul. On 2022-03-22 07:03, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > I've taken and uploaded some larger easy to view images of the processor board component and solder sides. > > One plus is the eproms are socketed. > > I've uploaded an image showing the silk screening stamp on the underside of the eproms. > > Now that I look closer at the Power Supply PWB I see it too is filled with proprietarily marked parts (sigh). > > Big Blue's curse continues. > > Interestingly Xerox didn?t do this with the Star 6085 Workstation. The full service manuals are available for download. I believe the 8010 is the same way. > > I suppose I can email my contact at IBM archives and inquire about circuit diagrams... It never hurts to ask. > > I have the MiniPro TL866II Plus programmer. It does have the ability to read the ID of ICs. Setup requires you first select IC p/n number from the list, and then it verifies the data prior to a read or write. > > It would be nice if it could ID the IC automatically. I realize there are probably too many variables to do this safely without risk of destroying the EPROM and/or the data written on it. > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/juvn0ahnwp51k80/ProcessorPWBCompSide1.jpg?dl=0 > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4mqpxd9ksnciil/ProcessorPWBSolderSide1.jpg?dl=0 > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl26dkv3jjuip0u/PromUnderside1.jpg?dl=0 > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqok0avoqqumyuq/PowerSpplyPWB1.jpg?dl=0 > > Don Resor > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Glen Slick via cctalk > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 9:17 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:25 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> The PROMs are most likely house-labeled Intel commodity parts with >> JEDEC-standard pinouts, so it should be fairly easy, using an EPROM >> reader, to figure out if these are 8KB, 16KB, 32KB or 64KB devices. > Some device programmers can read the manufacturer and device ID codes from a device, if they are implemented. That would be another way to check for a Intel standard part. > > Intel 2764 - 89h / 02h > Intel 2764A - 89h / 08h > Intel 27C64 - 89h / 07h > > Intel 27128 - 89h / 83h > Intel 27128A - 89h / 89h > Intel 27C128 - 89h / FCh > > Intel 27256 - 89h / 04h > Intel 27C256 - 89h / 8Ch > > Intel 27512 - 89h / 0Dh > Intel 27C512 - 89h / FDh > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 11:23:55 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 00:23:55 +0800 Subject: Searching cctalk archives? Message-ID: I came across a reference to a cctalk message from 9 September 2006 and would like to read the rest of the thread with the subject "PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed!". Unfortunately it appears that the cctalk archive does not go back to 2006. Is there some place with the complete cctalk archive or at least back to Sept 2006? I have also been trying to search the cctalk archive, but short of downloading every month and unzip it, there appears to be no easy way of searching. What do experienced cctalk members do? Thanks Tom Hunter From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Mar 22 12:07:42 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:07:42 -0700 Subject: Searching cctalk archives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/22/2022 9:23 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I came across a reference to a cctalk message from 9 September 2006 and > would like to read the rest of the thread with the subject "PDP-8m Console > Switch Problems - fixed!". Sending you the requested month.? many titled messaages. will send gzip. I have back to 1999.? I don't know where the full archives are, but this was discussed in the past. I need to do a refresh.? I have all the gzips, and as you say, just unzip the lot and grep or egrep. Look in your spam folder or email me a different address if this is a cctalk only no reply email you use. thanks Jim From organlists1 at sonic.net Tue Mar 22 04:40:34 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:40:34 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are a few other problems. The power supply does not power up. Three of it's four voltages are missing (+5vdc, +8.5vdc, +13vdc). With no connections to the power supply board, the +5vdc measures 4.92vdc while the other two voltages are still zero volts. The second issue I found upon removing the driver and processor board is moisture had entered the typewriter's electronics and the connector between the two boards has corrosion on many of the pins and on the PWB near the connector. I do not have access to a microscope. I know it has been explained to me elsewhere that UV exposure from florescent lamps can erase the proms. The way I understand is the glass of the florescent lamp filters out any UV radiation (as does the piece of glass mounted in front of quartz halogen lighting). In order that a UV lamp can operate correctly the tube must be made of quartz, not glass. Am I wrong here? Don Resor From: dwight Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:50 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' ; D. Resor Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. Dwight _____ From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the image. Thanks Don Resor From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:03:50 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:03:50 -0300 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2de7c6cc-c75d-a6db-d53b-8d16727a7c5d@gmail.com> You are correct ordinary glass does not transmit UV well, the UV lamps normally used to erase EPROMs and germicidal lamps like the window in an EPROM are made from quartz glass. Florescent lights do leak a little UV but it would take a long time to erase an EPROM. Paul. On 2022-03-22 06:40, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > There are a few other problems. > > The power supply does not power up. Three of it's four voltages are missing > (+5vdc, +8.5vdc, +13vdc). With no connections to the power supply board, > the +5vdc measures 4.92vdc while the other two voltages are still zero > volts. > > The second issue I found upon removing the driver and processor board is > moisture had entered the typewriter's electronics and the connector between > the two boards has corrosion on many of the pins and on the PWB near the > connector. > > I do not have access to a microscope. > > I know it has been explained to me elsewhere that UV exposure from > florescent lamps can erase the proms. The way I understand is the glass of > the florescent lamp filters out any UV radiation (as does the piece of glass > mounted in front of quartz halogen lighting). In order that a UV lamp can > operate correctly the tube must be made of quartz, not glass. > > Am I wrong here? > > Don Resor > > From: dwight > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:50 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > ; D. Resor > Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one > of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before > shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory > numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and > look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal > layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a > large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. > Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the > lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 > volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a > hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. > Dwight > > > _____ > > From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via > cctalk > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. > > Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 > > No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the > image. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:14:48 2022 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 18:14:48 +0000 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is true that the glass blocks most of the UVC from florescent lamps. The key word here is "most". It is not a 100% block. When looking at aged data in EPROMs one should error on the side of caution. As an example, I have a pole lamp that I use a standard florescent bulb, with the typical spiral of 3 turns. I used it for about 4 hours a day for about a month when I bumped into the lamp shade. It crumbled into pieces. At the base where the lamp shade was protected from direct light of the lamp, the plastic seemed to be of full strength, even though the temperature was higher at the base. I don't know the intensity of the various levels of UV at different frequencies leaking from the lamp. I do know that it takes a specific high frequency of UV in the UVC range as a minimum to erase EPROMs. This plastic may be sensitive to UV closer to the visible spectrum. I'm only saying that one should use a lamp that has zero UVC as apposed to a lamp that has a filter reduced level of UVC. Years ago, I won a bet by allowing an EPROM to sit exposed for 3 months in an industrial setting, using florescent tube lighting. It did not erase any of the data in that condition. I suspect it had some effect but unlikely much more than that lost by cosmic rays over the same period of time. Holding an aged EPROM about 2 inches from a florescent lamp is still not something that I'd bet on. Dwight ________________________________ From: D. Resor Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 2:40 AM To: 'dwight' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? There are a few other problems. The power supply does not power up. Three of it?s four voltages are missing (+5vdc, +8.5vdc, +13vdc). With no connections to the power supply board, the +5vdc measures 4.92vdc while the other two voltages are still zero volts. The second issue I found upon removing the driver and processor board is moisture had entered the typewriter?s electronics and the connector between the two boards has corrosion on many of the pins and on the PWB near the connector. I do not have access to a microscope. I know it has been explained to me elsewhere that UV exposure from florescent lamps can erase the proms. The way I understand is the glass of the florescent lamp filters out any UV radiation (as does the piece of glass mounted in front of quartz halogen lighting). In order that a UV lamp can operate correctly the tube must be made of quartz, not glass. Am I wrong here? Don Resor From: dwight Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:50 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' ; D. Resor Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the image. Thanks Don Resor From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 22 13:56:03 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:56:03 -0500 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> On Monday (03/21/2022 at 09:17PM -0700), Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:25 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > > > The PROMs are most likely house-labeled Intel commodity parts with > > JEDEC-standard pinouts, so it should be fairly easy, using an EPROM > > reader, to figure out if these are 8KB, 16KB, 32KB or 64KB devices. > > Some device programmers can read the manufacturer and device ID codes > from a device, if they are implemented. That would be another way to > check for a Intel standard part. [...] > > Intel 27256 - 89h / 04h > Intel 27C256 - 89h / 8Ch [...] Trying not to hijack the thread too much but I have an Intel D27C256-200 here in my TL866II+ programmer and it returns ID 89h / 8Dh. The TL866+software actually fails to program it if the "Check Id" feature is enabled as it complains about ID mismatch. But if I disable that, it programs correctly and works in-circuit without issue. Without disabling the Id check, there would be no way to program an Intel 27256 on this programmer since there are no other 256K-bit Intel offerings in the menu-- so I am suspecious of the situation. Any idea why some Intel 256K-bit PROMs are 89/8C and some are 89/8D?? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From bmr at ringman.ch Tue Mar 22 12:25:35 2022 From: bmr at ringman.ch (Magnus Ringman) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 18:25:35 +0100 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFVudXN1YWwg4oCcZ29sZOKAnSBJQyBjaGlwcz8=?= In-Reply-To: <54EB1981-78EF-498B-9025-18497F0DFE98@oldcomputers.net> References: <54EB1981-78EF-498B-9025-18497F0DFE98@oldcomputers.net> Message-ID: Those look like "stripline" RF/microwave packages. PCBs will have cutouts for the package body, so that the leads can be soldered flat (no bends) directly onto impedance-controlled leads on the board. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 6:17 PM Oldcompu via cctech wrote: > Anybody know what these are? Maybe RF related? Found on a box of computer > ships. > > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0294pRVHPFQMShUZic2vFvneg > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 22 12:42:05 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:42:05 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFVudXN1YWwg4oCcZ29sZOKAnSBJQyBjaGlwcz8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <54EB1981-78EF-498B-9025-18497F0DFE98@oldcomputers.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 22, 2022, at 1:25 PM, Magnus Ringman via cctech wrote: > > Those look like "stripline" RF/microwave packages. PCBs will have cutouts > for the package body, so that the leads can be soldered flat (no bends) > directly onto impedance-controlled leads on the board. > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 6:17 PM Oldcompu via cctech > wrote: > >> Anybody know what these are? Maybe RF related? Found on a box of computer >> ships. >> >> https://share.icloud.com/photos/0294pRVHPFQMShUZic2vFvneg Yes, microwave. And the wide connection strips suggest high power devices, so perhaps power transistors (though why so many leads is unclear) or MMIC amplifiers. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 14:20:11 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:20:11 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:56 AM Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Trying not to hijack the thread too much but I have an Intel D27C256-200 > here in my TL866II+ programmer and it returns ID 89h / 8Dh. > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/_dataBooks/1993_Intel_Memory_Products.pdf Page 5-78 (Page 1201 of the PDF) Table 1. Mode Selection Intelligent Identifier - Manufacturer 89H Intelligent Identifier - Device 8DH That is for the A27C256 "Automotive" rated version. My BP Microsystems BP-1610 device programmer software doesn't have an entry for that one either. From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 22 14:25:05 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:25:05 -0500 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (03/22/2022 at 12:20PM -0700), Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:56 AM Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > Trying not to hijack the thread too much but I have an Intel D27C256-200 > > here in my TL866II+ programmer and it returns ID 89h / 8Dh. > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/_dataBooks/1993_Intel_Memory_Products.pdf > Page 5-78 (Page 1201 of the PDF) > Table 1. Mode Selection > Intelligent Identifier - Manufacturer 89H > Intelligent Identifier - Device 8DH > That is for the A27C256 "Automotive" rated version. > > My BP Microsystems BP-1610 device programmer software doesn't have an > entry for that one either. Interesting. Thanks Glen. The part is clearly labeled as "D27C256-200V10" so they must not have gotten around to changing the D to an A :-) But, that explains it. Thanks for the digging. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 14:31:47 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:31:47 -0400 Subject: Searching cctalk archives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006901d83e23$78d01570$6a704050$@gmail.com> In general: http://bitsavers.org/mailing_lists/cctalk_mailing_list/ However I just used Google Search on "PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! CCTALK CCTECH" and the fourth hit was: http://bitsavers.org/mailing_lists/cctalk_mailing_list/2006-September.txt Then search in that page for "PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed!" --> From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Sep 7 02:49:17 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:49:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 12:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Searching cctalk archives? I came across a reference to a cctalk message from 9 September 2006 and would like to read the rest of the thread with the subject "PDP-8m Console Switch Problems - fixed!". Unfortunately it appears that the cctalk archive does not go back to 2006. Is there some place with the complete cctalk archive or at least back to Sept 2006? I have also been trying to search the cctalk archive, but short of downloading every month and unzip it, there appears to be no easy way of searching. What do experienced cctalk members do? Thanks Tom Hunter From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 14:49:32 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: DEC DC319A DLART (DL11 Compatible Asynchronous Receiver-Transmitter) Message-ID: <006c01d83e25$f38150c0$da83f240$@gmail.com> In case anyone else has been looking some of these, there is a listing for multiple tubes-of-11 on eBay at a moderate price: https://www.ebay.com/itm/123710245814 QTY-11 PCS. AMI SEMICONDUCTOR DC319 C04090 Integrated Circuit - (UIC 40378901) It's documented in the DEC Semiconductor Data Book, Volume 1 (1987), pages 3-27 through 3-41: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/semiconductor/ ----- From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 15:14:29 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:14:29 -0300 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d6f56a4-ba0b-640b-bde8-65aa31c811af@gmail.com> I can tell you what some of the chips are on the power supply board, but the list I have is mostly TTL parts 1582684 LM324 1582606 74LS74????? F/F D-TYPE DUAL +E/T 2392122 7417??????? BUF/DVR HEX O/C (TPD0 30NS) 8272147 74LS05????? INV HEX O/C Aside from the house numbering of parts which is not unique to IBM, IBM had their own foundry for many years so you will encounter custom? parts for which there is no industry equivalent, this is also not unique to IBM, I have some HP computers that many of the parts are house numbered, and HP also manufactured their own chips so there are some parts that are unobtanium as well. Paul. On 2022-03-22 06:40, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > There are a few other problems. > > The power supply does not power up. Three of it's four voltages are missing > (+5vdc, +8.5vdc, +13vdc). With no connections to the power supply board, > the +5vdc measures 4.92vdc while the other two voltages are still zero > volts. > > The second issue I found upon removing the driver and processor board is > moisture had entered the typewriter's electronics and the connector between > the two boards has corrosion on many of the pins and on the PWB near the > connector. > > I do not have access to a microscope. > > I know it has been explained to me elsewhere that UV exposure from > florescent lamps can erase the proms. The way I understand is the glass of > the florescent lamp filters out any UV radiation (as does the piece of glass > mounted in front of quartz halogen lighting). In order that a UV lamp can > operate correctly the tube must be made of quartz, not glass. > > Am I wrong here? > > Don Resor > > From: dwight > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:50 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > ; D. Resor > Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one > of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before > shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory > numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and > look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal > layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a > large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. > Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the > lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 > volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a > hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. > Dwight > > > _____ > > From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via > cctalk > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. > > Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 > > No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the > image. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 22:09:55 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:09:55 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:25 PM Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Tuesday (03/22/2022 at 12:20PM -0700), Glen Slick wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:56 AM Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > > Trying not to hijack the thread too much but I have an Intel D27C256-200 > > > here in my TL866II+ programmer and it returns ID 89h / 8Dh. > > > > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/_dataBooks/1993_Intel_Memory_Products.pdf > > Page 5-78 (Page 1201 of the PDF) > > Table 1. Mode Selection > > Intelligent Identifier - Manufacturer 89H > > Intelligent Identifier - Device 8DH > > That is for the A27C256 "Automotive" rated version. > > > > My BP Microsystems BP-1610 device programmer software doesn't have an > > entry for that one either. > > Interesting. Thanks Glen. The part is clearly labeled as > "D27C256-200V10" so they must not have gotten around to changing the D > to an A :-) (Flogging a dead horse here slightly) Just took a look at a previous version of that Intel databook: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/_dataBooks/1991_Intel_Memory_Products.pdf Page 5-56 (Page 325 of the PDF) 27C256 Table 1. Mode Selection Intelligent Identifier - Manufacturer 89H Intelligent Identifier - Device 8DH NOTES: 4. Programming equipment may also refer to this device as the 27C256A. Older devices may have device ID = 8CH So apparently the Device ID change is not specific to the A27C256 "Automotive" rated version, just that in the 1993 version of the databook where I first looked the only EPROMs listed are the "Automotive" ones. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Mar 22 22:25:26 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 20:25:26 -0700 Subject: Searching cctalk archives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b7572c4-72b3-7778-f3e5-67160d71e6d9@jwsss.com> sorry to put on list, but never heard from Tom about what I sent him. thanks Jim On 3/22/2022 9:23 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I came across a reference to a cctalk message from 9 September 200 From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 23:05:04 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:05:04 +0800 Subject: Searching cctalk archives? In-Reply-To: <7b7572c4-72b3-7778-f3e5-67160d71e6d9@jwsss.com> References: <7b7572c4-72b3-7778-f3e5-67160d71e6d9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Thank you Jim and Pbirkel for your help. Sorry for the slow reply. I live on the west coast of Australia in Perth (GMT+8) so our time zones differ a lot. Best regards Tom Hunter On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:25 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > sorry to put on list, but never heard from Tom about what I sent him. > thanks > Jim > > On 3/22/2022 9:23 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I came across a reference to a cctalk message from 9 September 200 > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 23:32:51 2022 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 04:32:51 +0000 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <4d6f56a4-ba0b-640b-bde8-65aa31c811af@gmail.com> References: <4d6f56a4-ba0b-640b-bde8-65aa31c811af@gmail.com> Message-ID: Years ago when I was at Intel, they would take EPROMs that had only a few defects and attempt to program them with specific applications. They would then usually paint the window black and put on that particular product number. When we needed EPROMs in the lab, we would take a pile of these that were no longer used and scrape the paint off the window. Some would take the desired program and some wouldn't. I suspect that they can fuse identify specific bad EPROMs to use for such harvesting. The fused value may be laser blown as well. My guess is that that is the reason for the different ID number. If it will take pre-programming with a particular data, it is worth harvesting. This way they can find value in an otherwise unsellable product. I doubt the harvesting methods have changed much over the years. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Berger via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 1:14 PM To: D. Resor via cctalk Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? I can tell you what some of the chips are on the power supply board, but the list I have is mostly TTL parts 1582684 LM324 1582606 74LS74 F/F D-TYPE DUAL +E/T 2392122 7417 BUF/DVR HEX O/C (TPD0 30NS) 8272147 74LS05 INV HEX O/C Aside from the house numbering of parts which is not unique to IBM, IBM had their own foundry for many years so you will encounter custom parts for which there is no industry equivalent, this is also not unique to IBM, I have some HP computers that many of the parts are house numbered, and HP also manufactured their own chips so there are some parts that are unobtanium as well. Paul. On 2022-03-22 06:40, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > There are a few other problems. > > The power supply does not power up. Three of it's four voltages are missing > (+5vdc, +8.5vdc, +13vdc). With no connections to the power supply board, > the +5vdc measures 4.92vdc while the other two voltages are still zero > volts. > > The second issue I found upon removing the driver and processor board is > moisture had entered the typewriter's electronics and the connector between > the two boards has corrosion on many of the pins and on the PWB near the > connector. > > I do not have access to a microscope. > > I know it has been explained to me elsewhere that UV exposure from > florescent lamps can erase the proms. The way I understand is the glass of > the florescent lamp filters out any UV radiation (as does the piece of glass > mounted in front of quartz halogen lighting). In order that a UV lamp can > operate correctly the tube must be made of quartz, not glass. > > Am I wrong here? > > Don Resor > > From: dwight > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:50 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > ; D. Resor > Subject: Re: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > The dies look to have consistent wire bonding. That would mean they are one > of the standard EPROMs made by Intel, just preprogrammed by Intel before > shipping. The numbers wouldn't be intel numbers they would be IBMs inventory > numbers. My guess is that they are 2732s. You might use a microscope and > look at the edges of the dies. They often have the die type in the metal > layers around the edge some place. Avoid using florescent ring lights as a > large amount of UVC leaks from these. White LED are or incandescent lights. > Also power it up and note which pins look to have signals. if any of the > lines have what looks like a constant voltage measure it to the nearest .01 > volts if you can. That will help determine if it is driven by a signal or a > hard tied wire. Lower left and upper right should be ground and power pins. > Dwight > > > _____ > > From: cctalk on behalf of D. Resor via > cctalk > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 6:53 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? > > I cannot find a datasheet by any of the numbers silkscreened on these ICs. > > Could these be proprietary IBM P/N numbers? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6rvemx9ldbbv5x/EPROMS1.jpg?dl=0 > > No need for a Dropbox account, close the login pop up and you can view the > image. > > Thanks > > Don Resor > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 23 00:33:53 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:33:53 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: <4d6f56a4-ba0b-640b-bde8-65aa31c811af@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8e62813e-d140-f526-74e7-73f66fe1416c@sydex.com> On 3/22/22 21:32, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Years ago when I was at Intel, they would take EPROMs that had only a few defects and attempt to program them with specific applications. They would then usually paint the window black and put on that particular product number. When we needed EPROMs in the lab, we would take a pile of these that were no longer used and scrape the paint off the window. Some would take the desired program and some wouldn't. > I suspect that they can fuse identify specific bad EPROMs to use for such harvesting. The fused value may be laser blown as well. My guess is that that is the reason for the different ID number. If it will take pre-programming with a particular data, it is worth harvesting. > This way they can find value in an otherwise unsellable product. I doubt the harvesting methods have changed much over the years. That's not surprising. Probably cheaper even for IBM than mask-programmed PROMs. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 23 09:27:56 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 09:27:56 -0500 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20220323142756.GT1845@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (03/22/2022 at 08:09PM -0700), Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:25 PM Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > On Tuesday (03/22/2022 at 12:20PM -0700), Glen Slick wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:56 AM Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > > > > Trying not to hijack the thread too much but I have an Intel D27C256-200 > > > > here in my TL866II+ programmer and it returns ID 89h / 8Dh. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/_dataBooks/1993_Intel_Memory_Products.pdf > > > Page 5-78 (Page 1201 of the PDF) > > > Table 1. Mode Selection > > > Intelligent Identifier - Manufacturer 89H > > > Intelligent Identifier - Device 8DH > > > That is for the A27C256 "Automotive" rated version. > > > > > > My BP Microsystems BP-1610 device programmer software doesn't have an > > > entry for that one either. > > > > Interesting. Thanks Glen. The part is clearly labeled as > > "D27C256-200V10" so they must not have gotten around to changing the D > > to an A :-) > > (Flogging a dead horse here slightly) > > Just took a look at a previous version of that Intel databook: > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/_dataBooks/1991_Intel_Memory_Products.pdf > > Page 5-56 (Page 325 of the PDF) 27C256 > Table 1. Mode Selection > Intelligent Identifier - Manufacturer 89H > Intelligent Identifier - Device 8DH > NOTES: > 4. Programming equipment may also refer to this device as the 27C256A. > Older devices may have device ID = 8CH > > So apparently the Device ID change is not specific to the A27C256 > "Automotive" rated version, just that in the 1993 version of the > databook where I first looked the only EPROMs listed are the > "Automotive" ones. More interesting. If the programming algorithms remained the same then I guess it is just an issue for the programming system-- when it auto-IDs, it should display (and allow!) 27C256A instead of 27C256. I guess the next question is whether the programming algorithms really are the same between the 8CH and the 8DH variants?? My limited testing suggests they are at least compatible since my 8DH appears to be working when programmed as an 8CH. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 23 10:18:11 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:18:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <20220323142756.GT1845@n0jcf.net> References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> <20220323142756.GT1845@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <28e6c6b-f71e-dfc-23e0-169a81cdcdc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022, Chris Elmquist wrote: > More interesting. If the programming algorithms remained the same then I > guess it is just an issue for the programming system-- when it auto-IDs, > it should display (and allow!) 27C256A instead of 27C256. > > I guess the next question is whether the programming algorithms really > are the same between the 8CH and the 8DH variants?? > > My limited testing suggests they are at least compatible since my 8DH > appears to be working when programmed as an 8CH. I didn't even know that primitive EPROMs have device IDs... Without looking for a data book, how is the ID mechanism implemented? Christian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 23 10:27:11 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 08:27:11 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <28e6c6b-f71e-dfc-23e0-169a81cdcdc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> <20220323142756.GT1845@n0jcf.net> <28e6c6b-f71e-dfc-23e0-169a81cdcdc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <9244927c-cd67-0d47-bc5d-724e212b8688@sydex.com> On 3/23/22 08:18, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> More interesting.? If the programming algorithms remained the same then I >> guess it is just an issue for the programming system--? when it auto-IDs, >> it should display (and allow!) 27C256A instead of 27C256. > I think I first ran into this with the Seeq "Silicon Signature" PROMs. In my case, I think they were 27128s. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 23 12:28:34 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:28:34 -0500 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <28e6c6b-f71e-dfc-23e0-169a81cdcdc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> <20220323142756.GT1845@n0jcf.net> <28e6c6b-f71e-dfc-23e0-169a81cdcdc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <20220323172834.GA1845@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/23/2022 at 04:18PM +0100), Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > More interesting. If the programming algorithms remained the same then I > > guess it is just an issue for the programming system-- when it auto-IDs, > > it should display (and allow!) 27C256A instead of 27C256. > > > > I guess the next question is whether the programming algorithms really > > are the same between the 8CH and the 8DH variants?? > > > > My limited testing suggests they are at least compatible since my 8DH > > appears to be working when programmed as an 8CH. > > I didn't even know that primitive EPROMs have device IDs... > Without looking for a data book, how is the ID mechanism implemented? Intel called it "Intelligent Identifier(tm) Mode". From page 5-43 of my 1991 Intel Memory Products book, for the 27256, You put Vh (+12V) on address A9 and then, with A0=0, you will read out the manufacturer ID with A0=1, you will read out the device ID Chris -- Chris Elmquist From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 12:56:52 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 10:56:52 -0700 Subject: ID UV erasable PROMS used on an IBM PC board? In-Reply-To: <20220323172834.GA1845@n0jcf.net> References: <0fb8a313-dcad-cc4b-3614-977addcc08ce@sydex.com> <20220322185603.GA11478@n0jcf.net> <20220322192505.GH1845@n0jcf.net> <20220323142756.GT1845@n0jcf.net> <28e6c6b-f71e-dfc-23e0-169a81cdcdc9@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <20220323172834.GA1845@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 10:38 AM Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > > On Wednesday (03/23/2022 at 04:18PM +0100), Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > > > I didn't even know that primitive EPROMs have device IDs... > > Without looking for a data book, how is the ID mechanism implemented? > > Intel called it "Intelligent Identifier(tm) Mode". > > From page 5-43 of my 1991 Intel Memory Products book, for the 27256, > > You put Vh (+12V) on address A9 and then, > > with A0=0, you will read out the manufacturer ID > with A0=1, you will read out the device ID > > Chris It is interesting that the Table 1 Operating Modes referenced above on page 5-43 says that the Manufacturer ID is 89H for UV erasable Cerdip parts, and 88H for OTP Plastic parts. The interesting thing is that previously Intel data books (e.g. 1983_Memory_Component_Handbook.pdf, page 4-28) said "All identifiers for manufacturer and device codes will possess odd parity, with the MSB (D7) defined as the parity bit". The Manufacturer ID of 88H does not have odd parity. I don't know if the odd parity requirement was removed, or if this is an exception. From steven at malikoff.com Thu Mar 24 20:12:18 2022 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:12:18 +1000 Subject: DEC ME11-L core memory expansion unit drawings Message-ID: <3f748152de1a66a04d2308f4bb540583.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> I have finally got around to scanning the print set for the DEC ME11-L memory expansion unit and you can find it at https://archive.org/details/dec-me-11-l-core-memory-system-engineering-drawings/ The quality is acceptable given that the office supplies shop where I (DIY) scanned them on an A3 scanner only allowed output as JPEG or PDF (undoubtedly wrapped as JPEGs inside) so I thought there was no point degrading any more than necessary with editing the JPEGs to another format just to re-save them. I just bundled the raw scanned pages as-is and it looks fine. There's also some miscellaneous fragments for the M7050, M715 and M840 module drawings which came with the ME11 set. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 25 08:21:12 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC ME11-L core memory expansion unit drawings Message-ID: <20220325132112.93F1118C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > I have finally got around to scanning the print set for the DEC ME11-L > memory expansion unit Ah, thanks for that. The prints for the boards are available, in the PDP-11/05 Engineering Drawings (on pp. 115-137), but the MF11-L backplane was previously missing. (The -11/05 generally mounts MM11-L sets in the main CPU backplane, so the MF11-L backplane is not included in the -11/05 prints.) It is the non-parity MF11-L backplane (DEC part number 54-09959), not the parity one (part number 54-10331), though. (My theory is that the non-parity version can be upgraded to parity with an etch cut, and some added wires, FWIW.) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 26 16:20:14 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 21:20:14 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> I had the H7140 PSU in my PDP 11/24 repaired a little while ago and I posted about it here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have since had the PSU fixed again and it came back a couple of weeks ago. When I installed it and applied power to the input, I heard a reassuring relay click. So I powered it on. The fans turned, but there was a crackle and I smelt something burning. I couldn't locate the smell, there were no lights on the CPU board, but the fans continued to turn. I had to leave it a few days and today I went back to it to check things a bit more carefully. All the power outputs of the PSU appear nominal. However, the ripple seems quite high, with an amplitude of 600mV on the +5V output: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/pin-1-5v-ripple.jpg. The DC ON light comes on, but the M7133 CPU LEDs show no activity whatsoever. There is no apparent damage to the CPU or to the M7134 that was also installed. So, I guess the component that blew up must be inside the PSU. Presumably, whatever the part is, it is stopping the CPU working, because previously the CPU did appear to show some activity, although of course it could still be a failure on the CPU. I am not sure what other outputs the CPU might depend on. There is the LTC signal for the line time clock, but I don't know if its absence would stop the CPU working. I have not been able to test the LTC signal as yet. Can anyone suggest what else the CPU might need? Or is it LTC? Regards Rob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Mar 26 17:06:35 2022 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 18:06:35 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2022-03-26 5:20 p.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I had the H7140 PSU in my PDP 11/24 repaired a little while ago and I posted > about it here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ > > I have since had the PSU fixed again and it came back a couple of weeks ago. > When I installed it and applied power to the input, I heard a reassuring > relay click. > > So I powered it on. The fans turned, but there was a crackle and I smelt > something burning. I couldn't locate the smell, there were no lights on the > CPU board, but the fans continued to turn. > > I had to leave it a few days and today I went back to it to check things a > bit more carefully. All the power outputs of the PSU appear nominal. > However, the ripple seems quite high, with an amplitude of 600mV on the +5V > output: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/pin-1-5v-ripple.jpg. > > The DC ON light comes on, but the M7133 CPU LEDs show no activity > whatsoever. > > There is no apparent damage to the CPU or to the M7134 that was also > installed. So, I guess the component that blew up must be inside the PSU. > Presumably, whatever the part is, it is stopping the CPU working, because I think the next step would be to inspect the PSU and see if the ripple can be eliminated, perhaps by replacing whatever blew up :) --T > previously the CPU did appear to show some activity, although of course it > could still be a failure on the CPU. I am not sure what other outputs the > CPU might depend on. There is the LTC signal for the line time clock, but I > don't know if its absence would stop the CPU working. I have not been able > to test the LTC signal as yet. > > Can anyone suggest what else the CPU might need? Or is it LTC? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 26 18:12:08 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 23:12:08 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Toby Thain via > cctalk > Sent: 26 March 2022 22:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > On 2022-03-26 5:20 p.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I had the H7140 PSU in my PDP 11/24 repaired a little while ago and I > > posted about it here: > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ > > > > I have since had the PSU fixed again and it came back a couple of weeks ago. > > When I installed it and applied power to the input, I heard a > > reassuring relay click. > > > > So I powered it on. The fans turned, but there was a crackle and I > > smelt something burning. I couldn't locate the smell, there were no > > lights on the CPU board, but the fans continued to turn. > > > > I had to leave it a few days and today I went back to it to check > > things a bit more carefully. All the power outputs of the PSU appear nominal. > > However, the ripple seems quite high, with an amplitude of 600mV on > > the +5V > > output: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/pin-1-5v-ripple.jpg. > > > > The DC ON light comes on, but the M7133 CPU LEDs show no activity > > whatsoever. > > > > There is no apparent damage to the CPU or to the M7134 that was also > > installed. So, I guess the component that blew up must be inside the PSU. > > Presumably, whatever the part is, it is stopping the CPU working, > > because > > I think the next step would be to inspect the PSU and see if the ripple can be > eliminated, perhaps by replacing whatever blew up :) > Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the PSU repair is under warranty, which means I can't do it myself without invalidating the warranty, so I will have to send it back. I don't know if the ripple is caused by the blown part, but I suppose it is likely. I may be able to inspect it without breaking the seals. > --T > > > previously the CPU did appear to show some activity, although of > > course it could still be a failure on the CPU. I am not sure what > > other outputs the CPU might depend on. There is the LTC signal for the > > line time clock, but I don't know if its absence would stop the CPU > > working. I have not been able to test the LTC signal as yet. > > > > Can anyone suggest what else the CPU might need? Or is it LTC? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Mar 26 19:02:35 2022 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 19:02:35 -0500 Subject: MAN-3A display Message-ID: Looking for a couple of MAN-3A (single character, seven-segment red LED display) to restore a '70's pocket calculator. One digit is missing a segment. I had another 3A in my LED drawer - and IT has a different bad segment... aargh. No luck searching the usual places online. Can anyone help? thanks. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:14:38 2022 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:14:38 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 9:20 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone suggest what else the CPU might need? Or is it LTC? > I would check the ACLO and DCLO signals. These are both high (pulled up by the bus terminator) for normal running, a PSU can pull them low if it detects loss of mains or whatever. Normally that will halt the CPU -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:17:37 2022 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:17:37 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:12 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the PSU repair is under warranty, which means I can't do it myself without invalidating the warranty, so I will have to send it back. I don't know if the ripple is caused by the blown part, but I suppose it is likely. I may be able to inspect it without breaking the seals. That sort of thing would make me very suspicious as to what they've done inside the PSU that they don't want you to see. -tony From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 13:38:33 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:38:33 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 3/27/22 05:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:12 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > >> Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the PSU repair is under warranty, which means I can't do it myself without invalidating the warranty, so I will have to send it back. I don't know if the ripple is caused by the blown part, but I suppose it is likely. I may be able to inspect it without breaking the seals. > > That sort of thing would make me very suspicious as to what they've > done inside the PSU that they don't want you to see. > Pretty much every electronic device I have ever bought had seals on it and a notice that breaking the seals voided the warranty. Even stuff with easily replaceable (or upgradeable) components. Nothing unusual here. bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Mar 27 13:48:26 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:48:26 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Bigger question is who repaired the power supply "under warranty"? On 3/27/2022 2:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/27/22 05:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:12 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the >>> PSU repair is under warranty, which means I can't do it myself >>> without invalidating the warranty, so I will have to send it back. I >>> don't know if the ripple is caused by the blown part, but I suppose >>> it is likely. I may be able to inspect it without breaking the seals. >> >> That sort of thing would make me very suspicious as to what they've >> done inside the PSU that they don't want you to see. >> > > Pretty much every electronic device I have ever bought had seals on > it and a notice that breaking the seals voided the warranty.? Even > stuff with easily replaceable (or upgradeable) components.? Nothing > unusual here. > > bill > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 13:48:25 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:48:25 -0400 Subject: FreHD Message-ID: Here's one for the memory banks. I have a number of TRS-80's. Back when they first came out I bought a couple of the FreHD Hard Disk Emulators made by Fred Vecoven. They worked great and made life a lot easier. Then, I had reason to put everything away for a long rest. I just pulled them out and set them up again. Neither of them does anything. As a matter of fact, in my 4P they even keep the system from booting from floppies. Anybody else run into something like this? Is there something that would go dead if they sat idle for several years? I checked the CR2032 batteries and they are still alive so it's not like they ran out of power or anything. Any hints? bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 13:49:58 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:49:58 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 3/27/22 14:48, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Bigger question is who repaired the power supply "under warranty"? > My guess would be whoever fixed it this last time and warranted it. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 27 15:09:06 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 16:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > today I went back to it to check things a bit more carefully. All the > power outputs of the PSU appear nominal. > ... > Presumably, whatever the part is, it is stopping the CPU working, > because previously the CPU did appear to show some activity, although > of course it could still be a failure on the CPU. I am not sure what > other outputs the CPU might depend on. There is the LTC signal for the > line time clock, but I don't know if its absence would stop the CPU > working. I have not been able to test the LTC signal as yet. > Can anyone suggest what else the CPU might need? Or is it LTC? I'm going to start with some meta-comments, and then add some practical suggestions for how to proceed. Reading this, I'm guessing that you're a software person, right? Not that there's anything wrong with that (_I_'m basically a sofware engineer), but if one is going to collect and run (which inevitably means maintain/repair - it was ever thus, including BITD) vintage computers, you need to have mildly decent hardware skills. Yes, to some degree, one can lay this off on others (as has been done here with the power supply - something I'd do myself, as my analog skills are not very good), but I think developing some decent digital hardware understanding would really help. For instance, take your question about the LTC. To some degree, a complete, entirely accurate answer is dependent on the details of the software (bootstrap and/or OS). However, knowing how the LTC works, what the low-level details are of what the CPU hardware does with it, etc would tell you whether it is a cost-effective (in terms of overall 'getting the hardware working' project) thing to spend time on looking at, to begin with. (Parenthetical observation: I reckon that debugging _any_ issue, hardware _or_ software, is a process of 'what's the _cheapest_ [easiest, quickest, etc] test I can do that will produce the _maximal_ reduction in the area that the bug could be in. Rinse, repeat, until you've tracked the problem to its lair.) (You may discover, once you get the machine mostly working, that the LTC _specifically_ isn't working - at which point you can dive into it in detail. But until then, I'd ignore it. It's a relatively small aount of stuff, and the chance of a problem in there is small. And even if it's broken, the likely effects are small. There are better things to look at - below. Having a clear understanding of the machine's major functional units, and how they interact, would have made that clear.) So, in addition that that overview of the major functional units, you definitely need to know how the QBUS works (read the QBUS chapter in the "Microcomputer Products Handbook" or the "Microcomputer Processors" books). (Yes, I know, the -11/24 is a UNIBUS machine, but the two busses differ only in extremely minor details; if you fully understand one, you can learn the other in half an hour. And the -11/24's CPU is a KDF11 CPU, and uses the microcode ODT 'front panel' of the QBUS CPUs.) Having said that, and starting with the "All the power outputs of the PSU appear nominal" (which rules out a large area), this is the process I'd follow to reduce the area the problem is in as quickly as possible. (And maybe I should transform this into a 'fault analysis of QBUS (and some UNIBUS) PDP-11 systems' on the CHWiki.) You need to see if the CPU is _basically working. Two stages to that: i) is the ODT 'front panel' (in microcode) working, ii) is the CPU basically functional - i.e. can it fetch and execute instructions. Answers to those will greatly reduce the area in which the problem (if there's _only_ one - a possibility one must keep in mind). The first will tell you that i) the CPU is basically functional, executing micro-instructions, etc; ii) that the bus is basically functioning (for master-slave cycles; DMA and interrupts will remain to be checked out); iii) that the console port is working. (Yes, on the KDF11-U, the console is on an internal bus, and so in theory a machine could have the ODT 'front panel' working, _and_ still have a problem with the bus, but depending on the exact details of said problem, maybe not.) So, hook up a console, set the machine to 'halt', and power on. Is console ODT working? If so, congrats, you win, go to stage ii) below. If not, you have a reduced area in which you have to investigate - and you'll need a 'scope of some kind to make any progress. (If you don't have one, you're SOL. Get one.). In order i) is the CPU's internal clock (and thus, probably the microcode) running? (At this point you will need to consult the "PDP-11/24 System Technical Manual", EK-11024-TM.) If so, is it trying to talk to the console's registers? (See Section 4.6 of the TM, "Internal Address Decode".) If so, is the UART working properly? (4.7 of the TM, "Serial Line Units".) If so, console ODT is running, you're now at stage ii): you can see if the CPU will run. Deposit a 0777 ('BR .') in a likely location (I usually use 0100 or 01000); read it back to make sure the write succeeded. (If not, likely either the UNIBUS or the main memory has a problem.) Start the machine; the 'Run' light should come on - if you're lucky! Depending on which bin you wound up in, further assistance s available. :-) Noel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Mar 27 15:12:17 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 13:12:17 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <69deb67c-46c2-22f3-e677-ecb61e6987d6@jwsss.com> On 3/27/2022 11:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/27/22 14:48, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Bigger question is who repaired the power supply "under warranty"? >> > > My guess would be whoever fixed it this last time and warranted it. > > bill > > I have an Alpha DS-20 retired Feb 2021 that was under service contract thru 3/2021.? The PDP 11s are probably actively supported by those who are supporting customers with active systems.? Article said use of software and probably hardware thru the rest of the decade. DS-20 was replaced by High Availability configuration Dell servers, Alpha on Intel emulation.? No change to OS or software in the migration.? Same goes for PDP 11, and possibly this was retired in such a move with remaining warranty.? (didn't see where OP got the system. thanks Jim From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Mar 27 16:55:49 2022 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 17:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FreHD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Here's one for the memory banks. I have a number of TRS-80's. > Back when they first came out I bought a couple of the FreHD > Hard Disk Emulators made by Fred Vecoven. They worked great > and made life a lot easier. Then, I had reason to put everything > away for a long rest. I just pulled them out and set them up > again. Neither of them does anything. As a matter of fact, in > my 4P they even keep the system from booting from floppies. > Anybody else run into something like this? Is there something > that would go dead if they sat idle for several years? I checked > the CR2032 batteries and they are still alive so it's not like > they ran out of power or anything. Any hints? No hints, but the guy you want to talk to is Ian Mavric: http://members.iinet.net.au/~ianmav/trs80/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 19:36:49 2022 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:36:49 +0000 Subject: YouTube on the History of DEC Message-ID: A friend who used to work as a software trainer for DEC sent me the following link (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqlMfSCs0E), which points to an hour-and-a-half-long YouTube video from June 2021 about the history of DEC. It is a Zoom presentation from the Maynard Public Library done by a local newspaperman. It is fairly general, but was attended by a number of former employees, some of whom made comments. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Mar 27 21:50:23 2022 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:50:23 -0400 Subject: FTGH: DEC Networks & Comm Buyer's Guide, Letterprinter 210/LA50 manuals Message-ID: <6f7b0cb8-e2f7-4f1f-b043-ae0e89e6fb46@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, Digital Networks & Communications Buyer's Guide 1987 April-June Also some DEC Letterprinter 210 and LA50 Printer manuals, ask for a list. For postage from Toronto Canada. --Toby From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 22:57:58 2022 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 04:57:58 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:49 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/27/22 05:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:12 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the PSU repair is under warranty, which means I can't do it myself without invalidating the warranty, so I will have to send it back. I don't know if the ripple is caused by the blown part, but I suppose it is likely. I may be able to inspect it without breaking the seals. > > > > That sort of thing would make me very suspicious as to what they've > > done inside the PSU that they don't want you to see. > > > > Pretty much every electronic device I have ever bought had seals on > it and a notice that breaking the seals voided the warranty. Even > stuff with easily replaceable (or upgradeable) components. Nothing > unusual here. Very little of the stuff I've bought new has had such seals (with some things, like my audio equipment, you are _expected_ to remove the covers, the user manuals tell you how. They also include the full schematics). Ditto test gear (if there is a seal it voids the calibration only), computer stuff, etc. I don't think DEC ever put such seals on their machines when new. Certainly not on things like power supplies,] -tony From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 28 01:50:10 2022 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:50:10 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <8bbc6b7f-389d-ab04-82bf-94761ba675f2@ntlworld.com> On 28/03/2022 04:57, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > Very little of the stuff I've bought new has had such seals (with some > things, like my audio equipment, you are _expected_ to remove the > covers, the user manuals tell you how. They also include the full > schematics). Ditto test gear (if there is a seal it voids the > calibration only), computer stuff, etc. > > I don't think DEC ever put such seals on their machines when new. > Certainly not on things like power supplies,] > > -tony The RZ28 I have right here has the usual "Warranty Void If Broken" seal on the side. In this case the PSU was recently sent off for repair: I'm not surprised it came back with a similar sticker. They're not trying to stop you looking inside, they're trying not to have to fix it again for free after you've fiddled. What surprises me (a little) is that there is a commercial outfit willing to work on something so old. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From tom94022 at comcast.net Mon Mar 28 13:02:22 2022 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:02:22 -0700 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?Webinar:__Ethernet's_Emergence_from_Xerox_PARC:_1975-1980?= Message-ID: <004f01d842cd$fc92d600$f5b88200$@comcast.net> Ethernet invented in 1973-74 at Xerox PARC in Palo Alto, CA, evolved over many years. This April 13th Webinar will trace the history and development of Ethernet as a 10 Mb/s product up through the release of the DIX (DEC-Intel-Xerox) spec in 1980. This was the starting point for the ongoing IEEE 802.3 Standard activities. Speakers include Gorden Bell, Dave Liddle, Bob Metcalfe and seven other pioneers who were there for the transition. More detail at SVTHC website Register Tom From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 13:09:37 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:09:37 -0400 Subject: Webinar: Ethernet's Emergence from Xerox PARC: 1975-1980 In-Reply-To: <004f01d842cd$fc92d600$f5b88200$@comcast.net> References: <004f01d842cd$fc92d600$f5b88200$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9b5dedc0-f909-8c4e-7125-64e26fdcd9a1@gmail.com> For years I taught my students that the Ethernet was invented at the University of Hawaii in 1971! OK, it was wireless, but that brings up another surprise, that wireless ethernet came before wired :-) cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-03-28 14:02, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Ethernet invented in 1973-74 at Xerox PARC in Palo Alto, CA, evolved over > many years. > > > > This April 13th Webinar will trace the history and development of Ethernet > as a 10 Mb/s product up through the release of the DIX (DEC-Intel-Xerox) > spec in 1980. This was the starting point for the ongoing IEEE 802.3 > Standard activities. Speakers include Gorden Bell, Dave Liddle, Bob Metcalfe > and seven other pioneers who were there for the transition. > > > > More detail at SVTHC website > > > > Register > tickets-301085664327> > > > > Tom > > > From joe at barrera.org Mon Mar 28 13:12:52 2022 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:12:52 -0700 Subject: Webinar: Ethernet's Emergence from Xerox PARC: 1975-1980 In-Reply-To: <9b5dedc0-f909-8c4e-7125-64e26fdcd9a1@gmail.com> References: <004f01d842cd$fc92d600$f5b88200$@comcast.net> <9b5dedc0-f909-8c4e-7125-64e26fdcd9a1@gmail.com> Message-ID: That was the ALOHA network, which inspired Ethernet but was not Ethernet. On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 11:09 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For years I taught my students that the Ethernet was invented at the > University of Hawaii in 1971! > > OK, it was wireless, but that brings up another surprise, that wireless > ethernet came before wired :-) > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > > On 2022-03-28 14:02, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > Ethernet invented in 1973-74 at Xerox PARC in Palo Alto, CA, evolved over > > many years. > > > > > > > > This April 13th Webinar will trace the history and development of > Ethernet > > as a 10 Mb/s product up through the release of the DIX (DEC-Intel-Xerox) > > spec in 1980. This was the starting point for the ongoing IEEE 802.3 > > Standard activities. Speakers include Gorden Bell, Dave Liddle, Bob > Metcalfe > > and seven other pioneers who were there for the transition. > > > > > > > > More detail at SVTHC > website > > > > > > > > Register > > < > https://www.eventbrite.com/e/ethernets-emergence-from-xerox-parc-1975-1980- > > tickets-301085664327> > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 28 14:08:44 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:08:44 -0400 Subject: Webinar: Ethernet's Emergence from Xerox PARC: 1975-1980 In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d842cd$fc92d600$f5b88200$@comcast.net> <9b5dedc0-f909-8c4e-7125-64e26fdcd9a1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1703354D-9FF7-4075-AFC8-AA8FBF784884@comcast.net> > On Mar 28, 2022, at 2:12 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > > That was the ALOHA network, which inspired Ethernet but was not Ethernet. The differences are quite crucial. ALOHA is a broadcast radio packet network, which doesn't have collision detect and probably not carrier sense either. So it's about 1/3rd of Ethernet -- just MA. :-) A consequence is that the theoretical channel capacity is also about 1/3rd; ALOHA tops out around 30% of data rate, while Ethernet -- thanks to CS and CD -- can reach pretty much the full wire capacity. paul From js at cimmeri.com Mon Mar 28 14:19:28 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:19:28 -0500 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <62420A40.7010305@cimmeri.com> On 2022-02-25 16:09, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, folks. > > I've a HP 9915A computer with an > interesting problem. The motherboard > utilizes a ceramic Intel D8048 chip. > The problem is that this 8048 has a > crack right across the top middle of > it, and half of the top of the chip > has begun to separate. > > Powering up the machine as-is > unsurprisingly results in no > activity. HOWEVER, if I push firmly > on the cracked area with my finger the > machine starts to operate normally. > All appearances are that clamping down > the separating piece of the chip > re-establishes any broken wire > connections within the chip. > > I've obtained a replacement > P8048AH. My question is: do these > chips simply swap like a CPU, or -- as > I fear -- is the 8048 a pre-programmed > piece? More simply put, is this a > repairable problem? Or am I SOL? > > Any thoughts welcomed. > > - John Singleton > Hi, folks. With the help of the extremely talented people here, the far less talented me was able to repair this seemingly impossible problem and get the 9915 functional. The process was to: 1) burn a new 8748 CPU with the 9915's 8048 ROM code. I used a Data I/O 2900 for this purpose. 2) remove the remnants of the original 8048 CPU 3) install a new milled 40 pin socket 4) install the 8748 into that socket and power-on test. Thanks to Paul Berger, Will Cooke, and Wayne S for their useful suggestions. A very special thanks to Tony Duell for offering to go to great lengths to help. A very, very special thanks to Dave McGuire for having done all the hard work in retrieving the 8048's code to begin with (which he had done already for someone else), then providing the 8048 ROM code to me in hex format, plus guidance on how to fix the problem all the way through. - John S. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 28 14:46:22 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:46:22 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> Thanks for the lengthy reply. Some responses inline below. > -----Original Message----- > From: Noel Chiappa > Sent: 27 March 2022 21:09 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: RE: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > today I went back to it to check things a bit more carefully. All the > > power outputs of the PSU appear nominal. > > ... > > Presumably, whatever the part is, it is stopping the CPU working, > > because previously the CPU did appear to show some activity, although > > of course it could still be a failure on the CPU. I am not sure what > > other outputs the CPU might depend on. There is the LTC signal for the > > line time clock, but I don't know if its absence would stop the CPU > > working. I have not been able to test the LTC signal as yet. > > Can anyone suggest what else the CPU might need? Or is it LTC? > > I'm going to start with some meta-comments, and then add some practical > suggestions for how to proceed. > > Reading this, I'm guessing that you're a software person, right? Yes, that is correct. > Not that > there's anything wrong with that (_I_'m basically a sofware engineer), but if > one is going to collect and run (which inevitably means maintain/repair - it > was ever thus, including BITD) vintage computers, you need to have mildly > decent hardware skills. Yes, to some degree, one can lay this off on others > (as has been done here with the power supply - something I'd do myself, as > my analog skills are not very good), but I think developing some decent > digital hardware understanding would really help. > > For instance, take your question about the LTC. To some degree, a complete, > entirely accurate answer is dependent on the details of the software > (bootstrap and/or OS). However, knowing how the LTC works, what the low- > level details are of what the CPU hardware does with it, etc would tell you > whether it is a cost-effective (in terms of overall 'getting the hardware > working' > project) thing to spend time on looking at, to begin with. > > (Parenthetical observation: I reckon that debugging _any_ issue, hardware > _or_ software, is a process of 'what's the _cheapest_ [easiest, quickest, etc] > test I can do that will produce the _maximal_ reduction in the area that the > bug could be in. Rinse, repeat, until you've tracked the problem to its > lair.) > > (You may discover, once you get the machine mostly working, that the LTC > _specifically_ isn't working - at which point you can dive into it in detail. > But until then, I'd ignore it. It's a relatively small aount of stuff, and the > chance of a problem in there is small. And even if it's broken, the likely > effects are small. There are better things to look at - below. Having a clear > understanding of the machine's major functional units, and how they > interact, would have made that clear.) > > So, in addition that that overview of the major functional units, you definitely > need to know how the QBUS works (read the QBUS chapter in the > "Microcomputer Products Handbook" or the "Microcomputer Processors" > books). (Yes, I know, the -11/24 is a UNIBUS machine, but the two busses > differ only in extremely minor details; if you fully understand one, you can > learn the other in half an hour. And the -11/24's CPU is a KDF11 CPU, and > uses the microcode ODT 'front panel' of the QBUS CPUs.) > I think I have been avoiding learning about the buses, but I think you are right I will do some reading on them. I have a PDP11 Architecture Handbook which talks about the Unibus, so I can read that. As an aside I have also been trying to find a fault on a Pro 350 which uses the same CPU chipset. I have a pinout but no datasheet. I tried asking here on cctalk a while ago, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of documentation to help me understand how the CPU chips actually work. So I do try to understand the hardware when I can. > > Having said that, and starting with the "All the power outputs of the PSU > appear nominal" (which rules out a large area), this is the process I'd follow to > reduce the area the problem is in as quickly as possible. (And maybe I should > transform this into a 'fault analysis of QBUS (and some > UNIBUS) PDP-11 systems' on the CHWiki.) > > You need to see if the CPU is _basically working. Two stages to that: i) is the > ODT 'front panel' (in microcode) working, ii) is the CPU basically functional - > i.e. can it fetch and execute instructions. Answers to those will greatly reduce > the area in which the problem (if there's _only_ one - a possibility one must > keep in mind). I don't think the CPU is working at all. The reason being that there is absolutely no LED activity. Including an LED that is supposed to indicate a clock. Having hopefully eliminated all the power voltages it left me wondering if there was a fault on the CPU or in the PSU. Having had activity on those LEDs recently it seems most likely that it will be the PSU, particularly as *something* in there blew up. The only signal that I can identify that seems likely to have this kind of effect is LTC, but I don't know enough about LTC to know if its absence could cause the CPU board not to work at all, although I see above that you think it unlikely. I suppose the fault could be something I can't see on the CPU board, particularly as there do seem to be some quite large spikes, otherwise I am not sure if there is anything else from the PSU that could prevent the CPU getting going. > > The first will tell you that i) the CPU is basically functional, executing micro- > instructions, etc; ii) that the bus is basically functioning (for master-slave > cycles; DMA and interrupts will remain to be checked out); iii) that the > console port is working. (Yes, on the KDF11-U, the console is on an internal > bus, and so in theory a machine could have the ODT 'front panel' > working, _and_ still have a problem with the bus, but depending on the > exact details of said problem, maybe not.) > > So, hook up a console, set the machine to 'halt', and power on. Is console > ODT working? If so, congrats, you win, go to stage ii) below. I had a console attached. There is nothing on the console. When I first got the machine I did get output on the console. But that was before the PSU first failed on me, which is quite a few years ago now. > > If not, you have a reduced area in which you have to investigate - and you'll > need a 'scope of some kind to make any progress. (If you don't have one, > you're SOL. Get one.). In order i) is the CPU's internal clock (and thus, > probably the microcode) running? (At this point you will need to consult the > "PDP-11/24 System Technical Manual", EK-11024-TM.) If so, is it trying to talk > to the console's registers? (See Section 4.6 of the TM, "Internal Address > Decode".) If so, is the UART working properly? (4.7 of the TM, "Serial Line > Units".) > > If so, console ODT is running, you're now at stage ii): you can see if the CPU > will run. Deposit a 0777 ('BR .') in a likely location (I usually use > 0100 or 01000); read it back to make sure the write succeeded. (If not, likely > either the UNIBUS or the main memory has a problem.) Start the machine; > the 'Run' light should come on - if you're lucky! > > Depending on which bin you wound up in, further assistance s available. :-) > > Noel From lists at glitchwrks.com Mon Mar 28 14:49:14 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:49:14 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <8bbc6b7f-389d-ab04-82bf-94761ba675f2@ntlworld.com> References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> <8bbc6b7f-389d-ab04-82bf-94761ba675f2@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > What surprises me (a little) is that there is a commercial outfit > willing to work on something so old. It's essentially what we do. I doubt there's a directory of all the small shops that work on legacy equipment, but consider that some of this stuff runs CNC machines that are still in use. Depending on the industry and product, it's *way* cheaper to keep an old machine that's run not-full-time operational than to retool and recertify. Thanks, Jonathan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 28 14:53:51 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:53:51 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000e01d842dd$8c9091c0$a5b1b540$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via > cctalk > Sent: 27 March 2022 19:48 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > Bigger question is who repaired the power supply "under warranty"? A company called Radwell International. Based near me. They succeeded in getting the PSU to work, which I have been unable to do as it is just beyond me. > > On 3/27/2022 2:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/27/22 05:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:12 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the > >>> PSU repair is under warranty, which means I can't do it myself > >>> without invalidating the warranty, so I will have to send it back. I > >>> don't know if the ripple is caused by the blown part, but I suppose > >>> it is likely. I may be able to inspect it without breaking the seals. > >> > >> That sort of thing would make me very suspicious as to what they've > >> done inside the PSU that they don't want you to see. > >> > > > > Pretty much every electronic device I have ever bought had seals on it > > and a notice that breaking the seals voided the warranty. Even stuff > > with easily replaceable (or upgradeable) components. Nothing unusual > > here. > > > > bill > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 28 14:55:19 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:55:19 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <8bbc6b7f-389d-ab04-82bf-94761ba675f2@ntlworld.com> References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> <8bbc6b7f-389d-ab04-82bf-94761ba675f2@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000f01d842dd$c0f18910$42d49b30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini > via cctalk > Sent: 28 March 2022 07:50 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > On 28/03/2022 04:57, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > > > Very little of the stuff I've bought new has had such seals (with some > > things, like my audio equipment, you are _expected_ to remove the > > covers, the user manuals tell you how. They also include the full > > schematics). Ditto test gear (if there is a seal it voids the > > calibration only), computer stuff, etc. > > > > I don't think DEC ever put such seals on their machines when new. > > Certainly not on things like power supplies,] > > > > -tony > > The RZ28 I have right here has the usual "Warranty Void If Broken" seal on > the side. > > In this case the PSU was recently sent off for repair: I'm not surprised it came > back with a similar sticker. > > They're not trying to stop you looking inside, they're trying not to have to fix > it again for free after you've fiddled. > > What surprises me (a little) is that there is a commercial outfit willing to work > on something so old. Me too, but they do! > > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 28 14:57:00 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:57:00 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> > I don't think the CPU is working at all. The reason being that there is > absolutely no LED activity. Including an LED that is supposed to indicate a > clock. Having hopefully eliminated all the power voltages it left me > wondering if there was a fault on the CPU or in the PSU. Having had activity > on those LEDs recently it seems most likely that it will be the PSU, > particularly as *something* in there blew up. The only signal that I can > identify that seems likely to have this kind of effect is LTC, but I don't > know enough about LTC to know if its absence could cause the CPU board not > to work at all, although I see above that you think it unlikely. I suppose > the fault could be something I can't see on the CPU board, particularly as > there do seem to be some quite large spikes, otherwise I am not sure if > there is anything else from the PSU that could prevent the CPU getting > going. I'm on a nice long train trip right now but I recently got my 11/24 running again. One thing that baffled me was it would not do anything on the serial port. No ODT, no nothing. Turns out you really need to make sure the slots are filled properly. The CPU top, then the memory map, then for the next 4 boards one has to be either a properly configured MS11-PL (the 128kw board) or the memory boards specific to that type of 11/24. Or you have to put G7273's in the CD slots. Next you need proper devices or G7273's in the next two slots and a proper terminator in the left sockets of the last slots and a G7273 in the center slots. Only then will ODT work. Another oddity is that the 5.25 inch box has +5 and +12 I think and the 10.5 has +5 and +15. There are different memory boards that work in one and not the other, or both depending on jumper settings that have to be right. Unibus drives me bonkers sometimes with the number of different voltages requires (+5, +12, +15, +20, -15, etc....) It doesn't help that the +15 and +12 are on the same pins. Plus it's possible someone screwed with some switches, make sure they are set properly (ie: default is a good start). If you're still stuck next week drop me a line and I'll fire up my 11/24 and see if I can replicate your failure. > >> >> The first will tell you that i) the CPU is basically functional, executing > micro- >> instructions, etc; ii) that the bus is basically functioning (for > master-slave >> cycles; DMA and interrupts will remain to be checked out); iii) that the >> console port is working. (Yes, on the KDF11-U, the console is on an > internal >> bus, and so in theory a machine could have the ODT 'front panel' >> working, _and_ still have a problem with the bus, but depending on the >> exact details of said problem, maybe not.) >> >> So, hook up a console, set the machine to 'halt', and power on. Is console >> ODT working? If so, congrats, you win, go to stage ii) below. > > I had a console attached. There is nothing on the console. When I first got > the machine I did get output on the console. But that was before the PSU > first failed on me, which is quite a few years ago now. > >> >> If not, you have a reduced area in which you have to investigate - and > you'll >> need a 'scope of some kind to make any progress. (If you don't have one, >> you're SOL. Get one.). In order i) is the CPU's internal clock (and thus, >> probably the microcode) running? (At this point you will need to consult > the >> "PDP-11/24 System Technical Manual", EK-11024-TM.) If so, is it trying to > talk >> to the console's registers? (See Section 4.6 of the TM, "Internal Address >> Decode".) If so, is the UART working properly? (4.7 of the TM, "Serial > Line >> Units".) >> >> If so, console ODT is running, you're now at stage ii): you can see if the > CPU >> will run. Deposit a 0777 ('BR .') in a likely location (I usually use >> 0100 or 01000); read it back to make sure the write succeeded. (If not, > likely >> either the UNIBUS or the main memory has a problem.) Start the machine; >> the 'Run' light should come on - if you're lucky! >> >> Depending on which bin you wound up in, further assistance s available. > :-) >> >> Noel > From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 15:01:43 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:01:43 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> <011e01d84166$eaaa7960$bfff6c20$@ntlworld.com> <8bbc6b7f-389d-ab04-82bf-94761ba675f2@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5eef302c-6957-d040-afed-06ed0c32a07e@gmail.com> On 2022-03-28 15:49, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> What surprises me (a little) is that there is a commercial outfit >> willing to work on something so old. > It's essentially what we do. I doubt there's a directory of all the small shops that work on legacy equipment, > but consider that some of this stuff runs CNC machines that are still in use. Depending on the industry and product, including Nuclear power stations! > it's *way* cheaper to keep an old machine that's run not-full-time operational than to retool and recertify. > > Thanks, > Jonathan From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 16:20:05 2022 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:20:05 -0700 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: <62420A40.7010305@cimmeri.com> References: <62420A40.7010305@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <2245A257-E70A-4AEB-BE44-B7FAFFC1A8DA@gmail.com> Awesome! Congrats to everyone involved! Marc > On Mar 28, 2022, at 12:24 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> On 2022-02-25 16:09, js--- via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi, folks. >> >> I've a HP 9915A computer with an interesting problem. The motherboard utilizes a ceramic Intel D8048 chip. The problem is that this 8048 has a crack right across the top middle of it, and half of the top of the chip has begun to separate. >> >> Powering up the machine as-is unsurprisingly results in no activity. HOWEVER, if I push firmly on the cracked area with my finger the machine starts to operate normally. All appearances are that clamping down the separating piece of the chip re-establishes any broken wire connections within the chip. >> >> I've obtained a replacement P8048AH. My question is: do these chips simply swap like a CPU, or -- as I fear -- is the 8048 a pre-programmed piece? More simply put, is this a repairable problem? Or am I SOL? >> >> Any thoughts welcomed. >> >> - John Singleton >> > > > Hi, folks. With the help of the extremely talented people here, the far less talented me was able to repair this seemingly impossible problem and get the 9915 functional. > > The process was to: > > 1) burn a new 8748 CPU with the 9915's 8048 ROM code. > I used a Data I/O 2900 for this purpose. > > 2) remove the remnants of the original 8048 CPU > > 3) install a new milled 40 pin socket > > 4) install the 8748 into that socket and power-on test. > > > Thanks to Paul Berger, Will Cooke, and Wayne S for their useful suggestions. > > A very special thanks to Tony Duell for offering to go to great lengths to help. > > A very, very special thanks to Dave McGuire for having done all the hard work in retrieving the 8048's code to begin with (which he had done already for someone else), then providing the 8048 ROM code to me in hex format, plus guidance on how to fix the problem all the way through. > > - John S. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 28 16:45:47 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 22:45:47 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via > cctalk > Sent: 28 March 2022 20:57 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > > I don't think the CPU is working at all. The reason being that there > > is absolutely no LED activity. Including an LED that is supposed to > > indicate a clock. Having hopefully eliminated all the power voltages > > it left me wondering if there was a fault on the CPU or in the PSU. > > Having had activity on those LEDs recently it seems most likely that > > it will be the PSU, particularly as *something* in there blew up. The > > only signal that I can identify that seems likely to have this kind of > > effect is LTC, but I don't know enough about LTC to know if its > > absence could cause the CPU board not to work at all, although I see > > above that you think it unlikely. I suppose the fault could be > > something I can't see on the CPU board, particularly as there do seem > > to be some quite large spikes, otherwise I am not sure if there is > > anything else from the PSU that could prevent the CPU getting going. > > I'm on a nice long train trip right now but I recently got my 11/24 running > again. One thing that baffled me was it would not do anything on the serial > port. No ODT, no nothing. > > Turns out you really need to make sure the slots are filled properly. > The CPU top, then the memory map, then for the next 4 boards one has to > be either a properly configured MS11-PL (the 128kw board) or the memory > boards specific to that type of 11/24. Or you have to put G7273's in the CD > slots. > I have been reluctant to put everything back in, in case the PSU fries something. And the ripple I noticed is certainly something that bothers me. Previously I had a burning smell from the memory board. I have since replaced all the electrolytics on the memory board, but I have not tried putting it back in the machine since. Just checking my notes, it seems I have had *intermittent* lack of activity on the CPU LEDs before, so it may be worth trying to put everything back in, although the ripple makes me hesitant to do so. For the record, right now I have only the M7133, M7134 and G7273 installed. > Next you need proper devices or G7273's in the next two slots and a proper > terminator in the left sockets of the last slots and a G7273 in the center slots. > Only then will ODT work. > > Another oddity is that the 5.25 inch box has +5 and +12 I think and the > 10.5 has +5 and +15. There are different memory boards that work in one > and not the other, or both depending on jumper settings that have to be > right. Unibus drives me bonkers sometimes with the number of different > voltages requires (+5, +12, +15, +20, -15, etc....) It doesn't help that the +15 > and +12 are on the same pins. > > Plus it's possible someone screwed with some switches, make sure they are > set properly (ie: default is a good start). > > If you're still stuck next week drop me a line and I'll fire up my 11/24 and see > if I can replicate your failure. > > > > >> > >> The first will tell you that i) the CPU is basically functional, > >> executing > > micro- > >> instructions, etc; ii) that the bus is basically functioning (for > > master-slave > >> cycles; DMA and interrupts will remain to be checked out); iii) that > >> the console port is working. (Yes, on the KDF11-U, the console is on > >> an > > internal > >> bus, and so in theory a machine could have the ODT 'front panel' > >> working, _and_ still have a problem with the bus, but depending on > >> the exact details of said problem, maybe not.) > >> > >> So, hook up a console, set the machine to 'halt', and power on. Is > >> console ODT working? If so, congrats, you win, go to stage ii) below. > > > > I had a console attached. There is nothing on the console. When I > > first got the machine I did get output on the console. But that was > > before the PSU first failed on me, which is quite a few years ago now. > > > >> > >> If not, you have a reduced area in which you have to investigate - > >> and > > you'll > >> need a 'scope of some kind to make any progress. (If you don't have > >> one, you're SOL. Get one.). In order i) is the CPU's internal clock > >> (and thus, probably the microcode) running? (At this point you will > >> need to consult > > the > >> "PDP-11/24 System Technical Manual", EK-11024-TM.) If so, is it > >> trying to > > talk > >> to the console's registers? (See Section 4.6 of the TM, "Internal > >> Address > >> Decode".) If so, is the UART working properly? (4.7 of the TM, > >> "Serial > > Line > >> Units".) > >> > >> If so, console ODT is running, you're now at stage ii): you can see > >> if the > > CPU > >> will run. Deposit a 0777 ('BR .') in a likely location (I usually use > >> 0100 or 01000); read it back to make sure the write succeeded. (If > >> not, > > likely > >> either the UNIBUS or the main memory has a problem.) Start the > >> machine; the 'Run' light should come on - if you're lucky! > >> > >> Depending on which bin you wound up in, further assistance s available. > > :-) > >> > >> Noel > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 28 17:22:32 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:22:32 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002c01d842f2$521f4710$f65dd530$@ntlworld.com> Its 600mV, but it is more of a spike than a ripple. Here is a trace: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/pin-1-5v-ripple.jpg Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne S > Sent: 28 March 2022 23:15 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Chris Zach > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > How bad is the ripple? > Anyone on the list know what?s acceptable? > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 28, 2022, at 14:46, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach > >> via cctalk > >> Sent: 28 March 2022 20:57 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > >> > >>> I don't think the CPU is working at all. The reason being that there > >>> is absolutely no LED activity. Including an LED that is supposed to > >>> indicate a clock. Having hopefully eliminated all the power voltages > >>> it left me wondering if there was a fault on the CPU or in the PSU. > >>> Having had activity on those LEDs recently it seems most likely that > >>> it will be the PSU, particularly as *something* in there blew up. > >>> The only signal that I can identify that seems likely to have this > >>> kind of effect is LTC, but I don't know enough about LTC to know if > >>> its absence could cause the CPU board not to work at all, although I > >>> see above that you think it unlikely. I suppose the fault could be > >>> something I can't see on the CPU board, particularly as there do > >>> seem to be some quite large spikes, otherwise I am not sure if there > >>> is anything else from the PSU that could prevent the CPU getting going. > >> > >> I'm on a nice long train trip right now but I recently got my 11/24 > >> running again. One thing that baffled me was it would not do anything > >> on the serial port. No ODT, no nothing. > >> > >> Turns out you really need to make sure the slots are filled properly. > >> The CPU top, then the memory map, then for the next 4 boards one has > >> to be either a properly configured MS11-PL (the 128kw board) or the > >> memory boards specific to that type of 11/24. Or you have to put > >> G7273's in the CD slots. > >> > > > > I have been reluctant to put everything back in, in case the PSU fries > something. And the ripple I noticed is certainly something that bothers me. > Previously I had a burning smell from the memory board. I have since > replaced all the electrolytics on the memory board, but I have not tried > putting it back in the machine since. Just checking my notes, it seems I have > had *intermittent* lack of activity on the CPU LEDs before, so it may be > worth trying to put everything back in, although the ripple makes me > hesitant to do so. For the record, right now I have only the M7133, M7134 > and G7273 installed. > > > > > >> Next you need proper devices or G7273's in the next two slots and a > >> proper terminator in the left sockets of the last slots and a G7273 in the > center slots. > >> Only then will ODT work. > >> > >> Another oddity is that the 5.25 inch box has +5 and +12 I think and > >> the > >> 10.5 has +5 and +15. There are different memory boards that work in > >> one and not the other, or both depending on jumper settings that have > >> to be right. Unibus drives me bonkers sometimes with the number of > >> different voltages requires (+5, +12, +15, +20, -15, etc....) It > >> doesn't help that the +15 and +12 are on the same pins. > >> > >> Plus it's possible someone screwed with some switches, make sure they > >> are set properly (ie: default is a good start). > >> > >> If you're still stuck next week drop me a line and I'll fire up my > >> 11/24 and see if I can replicate your failure. > >> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> The first will tell you that i) the CPU is basically functional, > >>>> executing > >>> micro- > >>>> instructions, etc; ii) that the bus is basically functioning (for > >>> master-slave > >>>> cycles; DMA and interrupts will remain to be checked out); iii) > >>>> that the console port is working. (Yes, on the KDF11-U, the console > >>>> is on an > >>> internal > >>>> bus, and so in theory a machine could have the ODT 'front panel' > >>>> working, _and_ still have a problem with the bus, but depending on > >>>> the exact details of said problem, maybe not.) > >>>> > >>>> So, hook up a console, set the machine to 'halt', and power on. Is > >>>> console ODT working? If so, congrats, you win, go to stage ii) below. > >>> > >>> I had a console attached. There is nothing on the console. When I > >>> first got the machine I did get output on the console. But that was > >>> before the PSU first failed on me, which is quite a few years ago now. > >>> > >>>> > >>>> If not, you have a reduced area in which you have to investigate - > >>>> and > >>> you'll > >>>> need a 'scope of some kind to make any progress. (If you don't have > >>>> one, you're SOL. Get one.). In order i) is the CPU's internal clock > >>>> (and thus, probably the microcode) running? (At this point you will > >>>> need to consult > >>> the > >>>> "PDP-11/24 System Technical Manual", EK-11024-TM.) If so, is it > >>>> trying to > >>> talk > >>>> to the console's registers? (See Section 4.6 of the TM, "Internal > >>>> Address > >>>> Decode".) If so, is the UART working properly? (4.7 of the TM, > >>>> "Serial > >>> Line > >>>> Units".) > >>>> > >>>> If so, console ODT is running, you're now at stage ii): you can see > >>>> if the > >>> CPU > >>>> will run. Deposit a 0777 ('BR .') in a likely location (I usually > >>>> use > >>>> 0100 or 01000); read it back to make sure the write succeeded. (If > >>>> not, > >>> likely > >>>> either the UNIBUS or the main memory has a problem.) Start the > >>>> machine; the 'Run' light should come on - if you're lucky! > >>>> > >>>> Depending on which bin you wound up in, further assistance s > available. > >>> :-) > >>>> > >>>> Noel > >>> > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Mar 28 17:34:58 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:34:58 -0600 Subject: FTGH: DEC Networks & Comm Buyer's Guide, Letterprinter 210/LA50 manuals In-Reply-To: <6f7b0cb8-e2f7-4f1f-b043-ae0e89e6fb46@telegraphics.com.au> References: <6f7b0cb8-e2f7-4f1f-b043-ae0e89e6fb46@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <27ebc632-4596-a8f6-60ac-69f2c3492674@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 3/27/22 8:50 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Hi, Hi Toby, > Digital Networks & Communications Buyer's Guide 1987 April-June Can I get a bit more of a description as to what might be in that document? I've got an (unhealthy) interest in old networking equipment and might be interested in it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Mar 28 17:41:35 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:41:35 -0600 Subject: Webinar: Ethernet's Emergence from Xerox PARC: 1975-1980 In-Reply-To: <9b5dedc0-f909-8c4e-7125-64e26fdcd9a1@gmail.com> References: <004f01d842cd$fc92d600$f5b88200$@comcast.net> <9b5dedc0-f909-8c4e-7125-64e26fdcd9a1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <621001fe-0374-59bc-7129-913bdbe878de@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 3/28/22 12:09 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > OK, it was wireless, but that brings up another surprise, that wireless > ethernet came before wired :-) As others have indicated, I think not. ;-) I recently watched the following videos of Bob Metcalfe: - Link - Ethernet Briefings in April 1978 by Bob Metcalfe (112 minutes) - https://youtu.be/Fj7r3vYAjGY And the follow up: - Link - Metcalfe's Law After 40 Years of Ethernet (19 minutes) - https://youtu.be/f6CJA421aUo The Ethernet Briefings video goes into fairly good detail comparing and contrasting ALOHA net and Ethernet. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 28 18:07:11 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <20220328230711.63B1A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: "Rob Jarratt" > Thanks for the lengthy reply. Glad to help - or try to. > As an aside I have also been trying to find a fault on a Pro 350 which > uses the same CPU chipset. I have a pinout but no datasheet. There doesn't seem to be as lot on the F-11 set. I looked in the DEC semiconductor handbook, and it's not there - although perhaps it had been dropped by the one I looked at (which was mostly uVAX stuff) as obsolete? If you look in the KDF11-A and KDF11-U Tech Manuals, there is a chapter on the F-11 chip set, as used in those cards, and that's better than nothing - it talks a fair amount about the low level details of how the various chips operate and interact, etc. > I don't think the CPU is working at all. The reason being that there is > absolutely no LED activity. Including an LED that is supposed to indicate > a clock. Looking at the KDF11-U prints, I finally found that LED (it's pretty low level - I was worried that it might be a bit in a register, and driven by software, but it's not, it's actually driven directly by the the CPU's internal clock signal; it's on page K1 of the prints, 'Clock, State Decode', in the very upper left corner). (The source of the CPU's internal clock is just an RC circuit, in the lower middle of that page, and the trim pot that's part of it - along the upper edge of the board - can be adjusted to set the clock speed 'properly', per the note at the back of the prints on the page which lists the configuration switches. The 2MHz crystal along the upper edge drives the baud rate generator.) > Having hopefully eliminated all the power voltages it left me wondering > if there was a fault on the CPU or in the PSU. If ODT isn't running, the problem is almost certainly in one of those two areas. > Having had activity on those LEDs recently it seems most likely that it > will be the PSU, particularly as *something* in there blew up. I'm not so sure. Those boards mostly just want +5V; looking a bit more, the CPU chips do seem to use +12V. The RS232 drivers will use +/-12V. I'm afraid that if i) it used to show activity, but no longer does so, and ii) the main voltages (+5V, +12V) look good, something on the CPU card has failed. But it will take a bit of digging to i) verify that, and ii) identify the fault. > The only signal that I can identify that seems likely to have this kind > of effect is LTC, but I don't know enough about LTC to know if its > absence could cause the CPU board not to work at all, although I see > above that you think it unlikely. I have yet to trace how the LTC signal is used in the KDF11-U, but on the KDF11-A, it not being there is a total NOP. (In fact, in the BA11-N/S type mounting boxes, there's a 'Clock Enable' switch on the front panel which turns the LTC signal off - and the machine runs fine with it off - except for the TOD clock not ticking.) That clock signal - totally different from the main CPU clock - is only used as an input to what is in effect a peripheral. > I had a console attached. There is nothing on the console. When I first > got the machine I did get output on the console. Not a good sign, alas. If you have a scope of some kind, and want to keep poking, I'd recommend that you start by seeing if the clock is running, and move forward from there. The KDF11-U prints are online, as is the KDF11-U Tech Manual. Skim the chapter on the CPU (4, I think), and then grovel around in the prints for a bit. Don't try to totally understand it all, just skim through it, so you know roughly where most things are. Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 28 18:09:00 2022 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:09:00 -0400 Subject: FTGH: DEC Networks & Comm Buyer's Guide, Letterprinter 210/LA50 manuals In-Reply-To: <27ebc632-4596-a8f6-60ac-69f2c3492674@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <6f7b0cb8-e2f7-4f1f-b043-ae0e89e6fb46@telegraphics.com.au> <27ebc632-4596-a8f6-60ac-69f2c3492674@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5be373a8-fbf9-adeb-e7fb-575867cfd2b4@telegraphics.com.au> On 2022-03-28 6:34 p.m., Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 3/27/22 8:50 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> Hi, > > Hi Toby, > >> Digital Networks & Communications Buyer's Guide 1987 April-June > > Can I get a bit more of a description as to what might be in that document? > > I've got an (unhealthy) interest in old networking equipment and might > be interested in it. > > > Sorry, I should have updated the thread -- the document itself has been claimed. I snapped the TOC though: https://imgur.com/a/iB81d3U Not sure if it is on Bitsavers. --Toby From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 28 18:11:14 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 17:11:14 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7558d35d-4678-a975-f8cb-015232bd9d13@alembic.crystel.com> > I have been reluctant to put everything back in, in case the PSU fries something. And the ripple I noticed is... For the record, right now I have only the M7133, M7134 and G7273 installed. Ok, I do recall that my 11/24 wasn't doing any ODT without some form of memory. When I configured a (broken-ish) MS11-PL in it did at least come up and allow me to load memory addresses and the like. But no memory, no deal. I'd say figure out your PSU first, then memory, then stuff. C From matt at 9track.net Mon Mar 28 19:31:26 2022 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 01:31:26 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <002c01d842f2$521f4710$f65dd530$@ntlworld.com> References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> <002c01d842f2$521f4710$f65dd530$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 28/03/2022 23:22, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Its 600mV, but it is more of a spike than a ripple. Here is a trace: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/pin-1-5v-ripple.jpg > I think that's just switching noise. You appear to be zoomed in on the point where the main switching transistor is turning back on. Here is a trace from an H7100 power supply (connected to a 70A dummy load) for comparison: http://www.9track.net/posts/h7100_trace.png If you turn on averaging mode on the oscilloscope (acquire menu) then that should filter our some of the noise and you will be able to see the actual ripple a bit better. It should be noted though that a differential probe is required for accurate ripple and noise measurements. Regards, Matt From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 20:48:23 2022 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:48:23 -0400 Subject: Loss of Museum in Ukraine Message-ID: Without getting political I was saddened to hear of the destruction of the Club 8-Bit museum in Mariupol, Ukraine. One can only hope that D. Cherepanov can rebuild his museum someday keeping classic computing in that part of the world alive. Murray-- From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 20:56:53 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:56:53 -0500 Subject: Loss of Museum in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sad news to hear On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 8:48 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Without getting political I was saddened to hear of the destruction of the > Club 8-Bit museum in Mariupol, Ukraine. One can only hope that D. > Cherepanov can rebuild his museum someday keeping classic computing in that > part of the world alive. > > Murray-- > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 28 22:15:09 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 22:15:09 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> <002c01d842f2$521f4710$f65dd530$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <36e1df10-88f3-1bdb-93cf-83bb25509f69@pico-systems.com> On 3/28/22 21:55, Jon Elson wrote: > On 3/28/22 17:22, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> Its 600mV, but it is more of a spike than a ripple. >> > That's probably not real.? It looks like noise pickup from > the probe ground lead.? Try disconnecting the probe tip > and see if you still get similar signals.? I have seen > similar noise lots of times when measuring things with > switching power supplies.? The high frequency content is > pretty unlikely to be actually there on the power rails, > with a bunch of decoupling caps all over the boards. > > Jon > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Mar 29 00:27:19 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 22:27:19 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <20220328230711.63B1A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220328230711.63B1A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2022-Mar-28, at 4:07 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> I don't think the CPU is working at all. The reason being that there is >> absolutely no LED activity. Including an LED that is supposed to indicate >> a clock. > > Looking at the KDF11-U prints, I finally found that LED (it's pretty low > level - I was worried that it might be a bit in a register, and driven by > software, but it's not, it's actually driven directly by the the CPU's > internal clock signal; it's on page K1 of the prints, 'Clock, State Decode', > in the very upper left corner). (The source of the CPU's internal clock is > just an RC circuit, in the lower middle of that page, and the trim pot that's > part of it - along the upper edge of the board - can be adjusted to set the > clock speed 'properly', per the note at the back of the prints on the page > which lists the configuration switches. The 2MHz crystal along the upper edge > drives the baud rate generator.) But the LED and CPU clock are not driven directly by that RC oscillator - there's a bunch of logic in-between the oscillator and the LED / CPU clock. [RC clock] => K1 OSC H/L --> [4-bit counter w parallel load] => K1 MCLK H/L --> LED --> [driver] => K1 CHIP CLK H (fonz CPU clock) The 4-bit counter looks to be generating some additional phases, but it's also controlled by a bunch of other signals. One of those signals is K6 BUF DCLO L which can hold the counter in reset, i.e. disable the Master/CPU clock (and LED). K6 BUF DCLO L is derived on-board from K2 P FAIL H, which is derived from K2 BUS ACLO L which is input from BF1-in-funky-hex-box which I presume is a bus connector pin. Tony mentioned checking ACLO. Even if ACLO is good, there's a whack of logic on the CPU board - including two monostables - just to get from ACLO to DCLO to enable the CPU clock, as well as those other signals controlling the phase counter. ref: pdfPg.152,etc of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf From rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Mar 29 03:28:56 2022 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 09:28:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <7558d35d-4678-a975-f8cb-015232bd9d13@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> <7558d35d-4678-a975-f8cb-015232bd9d13@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <255f955a.22b62.17fd4cad333.Webtop.100@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Chris Zach via cctalk" To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, 29 Mar, 2022 At 00:11 Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards I have been reluctant to put everything back in, in case the PSU fries something. And the ripple I noticed is... For the record, right now I have only the M7133, M7134 and G7273 installed. Ok, I do recall that my 11/24 wasn't doing any ODT without some form of memory. When I configured a (broken-ish) MS11-PL in it did at least come up and allow me to load memory addresses and the like. But no memory, no deal. I'd say figure out your PSU first, then memory, then stuff. C Just to chip in my 5 pennies worth. At least in the QBUS world, the only chipset that wouldn't ODT without memory is the original LSI-11 (and the T11 i believe, but that's moot because they came with RAM onboard). You should still get ODT on F11 and J11 chipsets even without RAM. Since the 11/24 uses the same chipset as the 11/23, i assume that this would still apply. Not sure of the intricacies of UNIBUS, having had no experience, but i assume that if the bus was terminated or continuity cards inserted correctly, the CPU board should ODT without memory. It's likely that the lack of ODT is due to issues with other boards, the backplane (an often missed source of issues), or the bus termination/continuity. I'd start with the basic stuff first. Whilst you're waiting on your PSU to be serviced in warranty, check the backplane and cabling for foreign objects, damage, and corrosion. Shorts and intermittent connections are inherently difficult to troubleshoot assembled, but can be trivial to identify when the machine is torn down. Then i'd reinstall the PSU and fans etc, then work on bringing up the machine, starting with the CPU and memory, then other devices. One notable thing, is i believe most PDP-11 PSUs, regardless of bus type, won't function correctly without a load on them. It might be hard to troubleshoot without a load on it. If you're short of grant continuity cards, they're extremely simple, and i'm sure with some googling, gerber files can be found for them. It should be trivial to make some from copper plated PCB stock and some patience if time is pressing. Good luck in your endeavors! Josh Rice From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 29 08:04:15 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 07:04:15 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <255f955a.22b62.17fd4cad333.Webtop.100@btinternet.com> References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> <7558d35d-4678-a975-f8cb-015232bd9d13@alembic.crystel.com> <255f955a.22b62.17fd4cad333.Webtop.100@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <391ecfc6-83ca-8568-b07d-620e2464addc@alembic.crystel.com> On 3/29/2022 2:28 AM, Joshua Rice wrote: > Just to chip in my 5 pennies worth. At least in the QBUS world, the only > chipset that wouldn't ODT without memory is the original LSI-11 (and the > T11 i believe, but that's moot because they came with RAM onboard). You > should still get ODT on F11 and J11 chipsets even without RAM. I totally agree and this threw me for a bit of a loop when I was testing my 11/24. I can do a quick check next week, but from what I can remember I was baffled at no ODT until memory was in. Maybe it was the 7273's but I went through 4 cpu boards trying it. Memory in and it all worked. And I have 3 spare 11/24 cpus all in working order for sale if anyone needs one :-) I'll double check later. CZ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 29 09:00:40 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <20220329140040.5849218C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > But the LED and CPU clock are not driven directly by that RC oscillator > - there's a bunch of logic in-between the oscillator and the LED / CPU > clock. Oh, sure; it was late (for me; the dog woke me up at AM today :-), and it had taken me a while to get even that far (find the freakin' thing), so I just wanted to pass the ball forward and crash! I saw the "STOP OSC H" signal feeding into the production of "PRE OSC L", but couldn't fully work out all the things that fed into that - and it now looks like that's not an important thing anyway, "MCLK H" is the one to look at. > [RC clock] => K1 OSC H/L > --> [4-bit counter w parallel load] => K1 MCLK H/L > --> LED It seems to me that the LED, being driven directly by MCLK L, should be flashing at the basic clock rate (i.e. dim to the eye) - so if it's totally off, MCLK L must not be running. So that's thing absolutely numero uno to investigate. > --> [driver] => K1 CHIP CLK H (fonz CPU clock) Yeah; the Fonz also gets "MCLK L" on pin 19, though - not sure what that's for. Eh, not important at the moment. > The 4-bit counter looks to be generating some additional phases Yeah, section 4.2 "Timimg" of the -11/24 TM talks about all the various clocks in some detail. > but it's also controlled by a bunch of other signals. One of those > signals is K6 BUF DCLO L which can hold the counter in reset, i.e. > disable the Master/CPU clock (and LED). K6 BUF DCLO L is derived > on-board from K2 P FAIL H Huh? BUF DCLO L is just BUS DCLO L, run through that DS8641 bus transceiver. But yes, because DCLO can stop the clock, checking ACLO and DCLO is priority numero uno in the debugging process, now. (Contrary to my previous fear, the CPU might be OK, and it might just be a power supply issue.) > which is derived from K2 BUS ACLO L I haven't bothered to check to see where BUF ACLO L (generated on K2) goes, but I assume it's used in power-fail trapping stuff. (ISTR that PDP-11 PS's sequence ACLO before DCLO, to allow power-fail trapping, before the machine is frozen as DC power actually goes low.) Likewise, not important at the moment. > which is input from BF1-in-funky-hex-box which I presume is a bus > connector pin. Yes; the ID ("BF2") is an indicator to that. > Even if ACLO is good, there's a whack of logic on the CPU board - > including two monostables - just to get from ACLO to DCLO The import of those two monostables isn't completely clear to me. However, notice that the output is fed through the DS8641 bus transceiver to _drive_ BUS DCLO; my _guess_ is that there's a delay between the PFAIL H input (which comes from BUS ACLO L) and _the CPU_'s assertion of DCLO - i.e. if the P/S goes bonkers and indicates ACLO, and doesn't promptly (after a suitable short delay to allow for power-fail action) follow it with DCLO, as it is _supposed_ to, the CPU will indicate DCLO on its own - and do it on the bus so everbody else will freeze too. Anyway, I think we've got as far as we can until ACLO and DCLO are checked. I'm upgrading the CHWiki KDF11-U page to cover the stuff that's not in the CPU chapter of the -11/24 TM, like the meaning of those on-board LED's, etc. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 29 09:38:19 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Loss of Museum in Ukraine Message-ID: <20220329143819.71FF718C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Murray McCullough > One can only hope that D. Cherepanov can rebuild his museum someday Is _he_ OK? (There are too many who aren't.) Noel From bruns at 2mbit.com Tue Mar 29 09:51:35 2022 From: bruns at 2mbit.com (Brielle) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:51:35 -0600 Subject: Loss of Museum in Ukraine In-Reply-To: <20220329143819.71FF718C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220329143819.71FF718C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Yes, saw an article that said he was fine. Not sure if there?s been any updates since that article though given how things have escalated? ? Brie Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> >> From: Murray McCullough > >> One can only hope that D. Cherepanov can rebuild his museum someday > > Is _he_ OK? (There are too many who aren't.) > > Noel From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 10:17:14 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:17:14 -0500 Subject: Loss of Museum in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: <20220329143819.71FF718C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: So much cool soviet stuff will of been lost. Hopefully the guy in keiv doesn't loose his stuff that sells on eBay he's been living in a subway station he was telling me a week ago. On Tue., Mar. 29, 2022, 9:51 a.m. Brielle via cctalk, wrote: > Yes, saw an article that said he was fine. Not sure if there?s been any > updates since that article though given how things have escalated? > > ? Brie > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 29, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ? > >> > >> From: Murray McCullough > > > >> One can only hope that D. Cherepanov can rebuild his museum someday > > > > Is _he_ OK? (There are too many who aren't.) > > > > Noel > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 30 14:07:55 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:07:55 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <20220327200906.14A1F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000c01d842dc$81164bb0$8342e310$@ntlworld.com> <87da677c-fbc2-7695-227b-f2efb37286b1@alembic.crystel.com> <001c01d842ed$2fbfa200$8f3ee600$@ntlworld.com> <002c01d842f2$521f4710$f65dd530$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009f01d84469$76d90aa0$648b1fe0$@ntlworld.com> You were right, it is switching noise. As you said, I was zoomed in too far, I hadn't paid proper attention! The actual ripple is about 50mV peak to peak. https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/pin-1-5v-averaged-ripple.jpg Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Matt Burke via > cctalk > Sent: 29 March 2022 01:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > On 28/03/2022 23:22, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Its 600mV, but it is more of a spike than a ripple. Here is a trace: > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/pin-1-5v-ripple.jpg > > > > I think that's just switching noise. You appear to be zoomed in on the point > where the main switching transistor is turning back on. Here is a trace from > an H7100 power supply (connected to a 70A dummy load) for > comparison: > > http://www.9track.net/posts/h7100_trace.png > > If you turn on averaging mode on the oscilloscope (acquire menu) then that > should filter our some of the noise and you will be able to see the actual > ripple a bit better. It should be noted though that a differential probe is > required for accurate ripple and noise measurements. > > Regards, > > Matt From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 30 16:29:32 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 22:29:32 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <011901d84157$48cca140$da65e3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b201d8447d$3f4d9740$bde8c5c0$@ntlworld.com> I found these two signals and ACLO is low (-15V) so I guess this must be the problem and whatever blew inside the PSU is probably the reason this signal is low. DCLO is high and the DC ON light is illuminated, but the CPU doesn't do anything presumably because ACLO is asserted. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > Sent: 27 March 2022 10:15 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 9:20 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > Can anyone suggest what else the CPU might need? Or is it LTC? > > > > I would check the ACLO and DCLO signals. These are both high (pulled up by > the bus terminator) for normal running, a PSU can pull them low if it detects > loss of mains or whatever. Normally that will halt the CPU > > -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 30 21:52:25 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 22:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <20220331025225.D3DD918C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > I found these two signals and ACLO is low (-15V) 'Good news, bad news'... Bad is that something is seriously wrong there; 'allowed' values are 0v (asserted) and +3V (un-asserted). I'm worried that the -15V will have taken out some of the semiconductors that are 'listening' to ACLO (like E70, page K2 of the CPU prints, lower right corner) - and possibly some of the things that are connected to _them_. Good news is that i) this would definitely cause a problem, so we're closing in, and ii) even better, the machine doesn't actuallly _need_ the ACLO (or DCLO) signal from the P/S to function properly. Just disconect them (which may be a bit tricky; IIRC you've got a BA11-A - but you can pull the pin in the connector shell of the power harness from the backplane, details of that here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors or, worst case, just cut the yellow wire to pin 4 of the 6-pin connector). At that point the pullups on ACLO (on the M9302 and the CPU - page K3 of the CPU prints - that's odd, there's a pullup to +5V there, but a cap to ground; the M9302 does indeed have the pull-up/down resistor pair on both ACLO and DCLO) should pull ACLO high and the clock should now run (CLK LED on) - unless the -15V killed something. If the machine then runs, it's up to you as to whether you get the P/S repaired so that ACLO work properly - your call. (I wonder how the -15V got to ACLO - I suspect a solder bridge from the prior repair - but knowing the answer is not important to getting the machine running.) > DCLO is high and the DC ON light is illuminated Good. > the CPU doesn't do anything presumably because ACLO is asserted. Yes. As long as the CLK LED is off, the machine will definitely be totally dead. If you can get it on, ODT should run (modulo issues yet to be sorted about the minimal functional machine - I'll post on that in a moment). Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 22:25:39 2022 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 04:25:39 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <20220331025225.D3DD918C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220331025225.D3DD918C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:52 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > If the machine then runs, it's up to you as to whether you get the P/S > repaired so that ACLO work properly - your call. (I wonder how the -15V got > to ACLO - I suspect a solder bridge from the prior repair - but knowing the > answer is not important to getting the machine running.) A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in the PSU could do it. The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve supply of which is -15V. Of course _why_ Q15 failed, if it has, is another matter. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 31 01:16:56 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 07:16:56 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: References: <20220331025225.D3DD918C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <00dc01d844c6$ec6b2d90$c54188b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tony Duell via > cctalk > Sent: 31 March 2022 04:26 > To: Noel Chiappa ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:52 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > > > If the machine then runs, it's up to you as to whether you get the P/S > > repaired so that ACLO work properly - your call. (I wonder how the > > -15V got to ACLO - I suspect a solder bridge from the prior repair - > > but knowing the answer is not important to getting the machine > > running.) > > A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in the PSU could do it. > The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve supply of > which is -15V. > Yes I found that on the schematic and surmise that this is what has failed. > Of course _why_ Q15 failed, if it has, is another matter. Yes, a bit concerning, and as Noel says maybe this has damaged something else, or that something else on the CPU caused Q15 to fail (if indeed it did). Perhaps I should follow Noel Chiappa's suggestion and disconnect ACLO, DCLO and LTC, they are all on the same connector and see how far it gets. If that works then I think repair ACLO and see if anything on the CPU is bad or anything else that might cause a short on the ACLO signal of the bus. > > -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 31 02:36:42 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 03:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <20220331073642.64C9318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in the PSU could do it. > The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve supply > of which is -15V. Ah; I hadn't even looked at the P/S prints. (Like I said, I'm really weak on analog: for digital, I have the advantages that i) although I'm basically/mostly a software person, the MIT CS department is part of the EE department, and they made sure that all the CS people had a decent grounding in the fundamentals of digital hardware; and ii) in my early years, I was involved in a number of actual hardware projects, including a UNIBUS DMA network interface that tuned into an actual product. So I'm pretty good with a digital circuit diagram, like these CPU prints. But analog stuff is still a mostly-closed book to me! :-) Anyway, I'm happy to let you provide the analysis of the P/S... :-) > From: Rob Jarratt > [Perhaps] something else on the CPU caused Q15 to fail (if indeed it > did). I'd guess 'unlikely' (if Q15 has failed); UNIBUS ACLO is connected, on the CPU card, to only a single gate (on K2), and that 383 ohm pull-up (on K3), and the 1K pF cap there (the purpose of which I still don't understand, unless it's just a smoother). Although I suppose that if that cap failed, shorted, maybe that could have taken out Q15 somehow. > Perhaps I should ... and disconnect ACLO, DCLO and LTC, they are all on > the same connector Now why didn't I think of just un-plugging that whole connector! Duhhhh! My only concern would be leaving inputs floating... DCLO, no problem; it has that pull-up on K3. (Ditto for ACLO, if the buffering input gate isn't dead.) LTC, let's see... It's on K6, upper left corner. I'm too lazy to work out what leaving that input floating will do, and, if it has bad consequences, trace out all the places it goes (it should be connected up to cause an interrupt, somewhere), but there's no point; the KW11 has an 'interrupt enable' that has to be set by software before it can do anything; so at the moment it's safe to just ignore it for now, and stay with a focus on getting the main CPU clock running. (LTC is not on the UNIBUS, so there's no pull-up on the M9302 for it the way there is for ACLO & DCLO.) So unplug that connector, and see if E70 (on K2, lower right corner) is OK. (Remember, the pull-up will give it an Ok input with BUS ACLO disconnected.) If yes, great, go check the main CPU clock. If not, time to i) see how far the rot has spread (e.g. have other gates in that package died - not sure what else is in there; not just looking at things connected to the output - on pin 2), and ii) decide how to repair or temporarily bypass. (Ditto for anything else that got taken out.) I'd be tempted to bypass it (since I doubt you stock 8837's - although I do :-) - ACLO handling isn't needed to get the CPU running. Tie BUF (not BUS!) ACLO to ground, I'd say, and we can move on to look at MCLK. > If that works then I think repair ACLO and see if anything on the CPU > is bad or anything else that might cause a short on the ACLO signal of > the bus. Well, your call, but i) working ACLO isn't needed to get the CPU running - and, in particular, to look for other problems that might be preventing it from running, and ii) fixing ACLO isn't guaranteed to make the CPU work. I'd recommend 'keeping the eye on the ball', and focus on the main CPU clock, getting ODT running, etc. The ACLO issue(s) can be cleaned up at your leisure. Noel From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 31 15:02:45 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:02:45 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <20220331073642.64C9318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220331073642.64C9318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <478A63EB-0670-4344-AE19-5AFECD03FEF4@shaw.ca> On 2022-Mar-31, at 12:36 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Tony Duell > >> A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in the PSU could do it. >> The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve supply >> of which is -15V. > > Ah; I hadn't even looked at the P/S prints. > > (Like I said, I'm really weak on analog: for digital, I have the advantages > that i) although I'm basically/mostly a software person, the MIT CS > department is part of the EE department, and they made sure that all the CS > people had a decent grounding in the fundamentals of digital hardware; and > ii) in my early years, I was involved in a number of actual hardware > projects, including a UNIBUS DMA network interface that tuned into an actual > product. So I'm pretty good with a digital circuit diagram, like these CPU > prints. But analog stuff is still a mostly-closed book to me! :-) > > Anyway, I'm happy to let you provide the analysis of the P/S... :-) > >> From: Rob Jarratt >> [Perhaps] something else on the CPU caused Q15 to fail (if indeed it >> did). > > I'd guess 'unlikely' (if Q15 has failed); UNIBUS ACLO is connected, on the CPU > card, to only a single gate (on K2), and that 383 ohm pull-up (on K3), and the > 1K pF cap there (the purpose of which I still don't understand, unless it's > just a smoother). Although I suppose that if that cap failed, shorted, maybe > that could have taken out Q15 somehow. Note: It's Q14 that controls ACLO, not Q15, Q15 is involved in the +5 startup. Unless there are two versions of the schematic and I'm looking at a different one than everyone else. pdfPg.30 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf >> Perhaps I should ... and disconnect ACLO, DCLO and LTC, they are all on >> the same connector > > Now why didn't I think of just un-plugging that whole connector! Duhhhh! My > only concern would be leaving inputs floating... > > DCLO, no problem; it has that pull-up on K3. (Ditto for ACLO, if the buffering > input gate isn't dead.) LTC, let's see... It's on K6, upper left corner. I'm > too lazy to work out what leaving that input floating will do, and, if it has > bad consequences, trace out all the places it goes (it should be connected up > to cause an interrupt, somewhere), but there's no point; the KW11 has an > 'interrupt enable' that has to be set by software before it can do anything; > so at the moment it's safe to just ignore it for now, and stay with a focus on > getting the main CPU clock running. (LTC is not on the UNIBUS, so there's no > pull-up on the M9302 for it the way there is for ACLO & DCLO.) > > So unplug that connector, and see if E70 (on K2, lower right corner) is OK. > (Remember, the pull-up will give it an Ok input with BUS ACLO disconnected.) > If yes, great, go check the main CPU clock. Removing DCLO and ACLO from the PS to the bus may allow the CPU/clock to work. Or it may not. DCLO & ACLO behave as power-on-reset signals to the system. If they are allowed to just float up as the power supply comes up you have no guarantees as to the end result ('end' meaning the state of things after the power supply has come up), without doing an analysis of the pertinent logic under their control. JFETs are being used as the ACLO/DCLO control devices for a reason. In contrast to bipolars, the normal/no-gate-voltage state of a JFET is Source-Drain conducting, thus the initial state at power-up of ACLO-L & DCLO-L will be 0V/low-impedance-to-GND. The point is to maintain that state until the power supply levels are good so the logic can be forced into a known state. Those three comparators in the H777 are looking at a time-delay ramp generated by C14 and the constant-current circuit of Q11. What is supposed to happen: - everything is initially 0V: V+5, ACLO, DCLO. - power is switched on. Internal voltage levels begin to rise. - after some delay, E4 trips first to start the +5 supply. - after some more delay, E5 trips, de-asserting DCLO (DCLO = High,+V). - after some more delay, E6 trips, de-asserting ACLO (ACLO = High,+V). The delays are presumably of some order of mS. -15V is the expected level from the E6 comparator output if AC is good. A Gate-Drain short in Q14 would be allowing that out to the bus. JFETs can be flaky, a failed JFET wouldn't be a big surprise. So E6.6 = Q14.G = -15V is expected after power-up but an additional concern would be that a G-D short allowed excessive current from the bus through the E6 comparator output and damaged E6, or if left on too long burned out pull-up resistors on the CPU or bus terminator. However the LM301 is supposed to have current limiting so those things may not have been damaged. The scope could be used to observe what is going on with the +5, DCLO, ACLO sequencing at power up (with bus pull-ups, but without CPU). Removing only the ACLO PS-to-bus connection would allow DCLO to still exercise it's proper POR control. Once bus-ACLO is disconnected from the PS, look for the clock LED after powering up with both bus-ACLO open (pulled high by bus & CPU) and bus-ACLO connected to GND. Manually connecting/disconnecting bus-ACLO to GND after power-up will trigger the CPU power-fail shutdown and disable the clock. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 31 16:14:55 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 22:14:55 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <478A63EB-0670-4344-AE19-5AFECD03FEF4@shaw.ca> References: <20220331073642.64C9318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <478A63EB-0670-4344-AE19-5AFECD03FEF4@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <013d01d84544$5e9cd9e0$1bd68da0$@ntlworld.com> I made some interesting discoveries this evening. See below. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert via > cctalk > Sent: 31 March 2022 21:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards > > On 2022-Mar-31, at 12:36 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Tony Duell > > > >> A short in FET Q15 on the bias/interface board in the PSU could do it. > >> The gate of that FET is driven from an LM339 comparator the -ve > >> supply of which is -15V. > > > > Ah; I hadn't even looked at the P/S prints. > > > > (Like I said, I'm really weak on analog: for digital, I have the > > advantages that i) although I'm basically/mostly a software person, > > the MIT CS department is part of the EE department, and they made sure > > that all the CS people had a decent grounding in the fundamentals of > > digital hardware; and > > ii) in my early years, I was involved in a number of actual hardware > > projects, including a UNIBUS DMA network interface that tuned into an > > actual product. So I'm pretty good with a digital circuit diagram, > > like these CPU prints. But analog stuff is still a mostly-closed book > > to me! :-) > > > > Anyway, I'm happy to let you provide the analysis of the P/S... :-) > > > >> From: Rob Jarratt > >> [Perhaps] something else on the CPU caused Q15 to fail (if indeed it > >> did). > > > > I'd guess 'unlikely' (if Q15 has failed); UNIBUS ACLO is connected, on > > the CPU card, to only a single gate (on K2), and that 383 ohm pull-up > > (on K3), and the 1K pF cap there (the purpose of which I still don't > > understand, unless it's just a smoother). Although I suppose that if > > that cap failed, shorted, maybe that could have taken out Q15 somehow. > > Note: It's Q14 that controls ACLO, not Q15, Q15 is involved in the +5 startup. > Unless there are two versions of the schematic and I'm looking at a different > one than everyone else. > > pdfPg.30 of > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug8 > 0.pdf > Thanks for pointing that out, I had not noticed the other line going down to Q13 and Q14. > > >> Perhaps I should ... and disconnect ACLO, DCLO and LTC, they are all > >> on the same connector > > > > Now why didn't I think of just un-plugging that whole connector! > > Duhhhh! My only concern would be leaving inputs floating... > > > > DCLO, no problem; it has that pull-up on K3. (Ditto for ACLO, if the > > buffering input gate isn't dead.) LTC, let's see... It's on K6, upper > > left corner. I'm too lazy to work out what leaving that input floating > > will do, and, if it has bad consequences, trace out all the places it > > goes (it should be connected up to cause an interrupt, somewhere), but > > there's no point; the KW11 has an 'interrupt enable' that has to be > > set by software before it can do anything; so at the moment it's safe > > to just ignore it for now, and stay with a focus on getting the main > > CPU clock running. (LTC is not on the UNIBUS, so there's no pull-up on > > the M9302 for it the way there is for ACLO & DCLO.) > > > > So unplug that connector, and see if E70 (on K2, lower right corner) is OK. > > (Remember, the pull-up will give it an Ok input with BUS ACLO > > disconnected.) If yes, great, go check the main CPU clock. > > Removing DCLO and ACLO from the PS to the bus may allow the CPU/clock to > work. Or it may not. Well I can tell you it didn't, disconnecting those connectors left the CPU still not doing anything. However, there is a puzzle. On the CPU I found that the track from the pull up resistor to E70 has been cut. This would suggest that E70 pin 2 is floating, which I think means that K2 BUF ACLO H is also floating (I haven't put a probe on it as yet). But as the cut is deliberate, there must be a reason. The CPU did work for a while when I first got the machine. K2 BUS ACLO L however has been patched to E52 pin 4, which is the output of a gate on sheet K6. Can't say I understand why. However, for whatever reason it would seem that perhaps the ACLO signal from the PSU has always been considered bad? > > DCLO & ACLO behave as power-on-reset signals to the system. If they are > allowed to just float up as the power supply comes up you have no > guarantees as to the end result ('end' meaning the state of things after the > power supply has come up), without doing an analysis of the pertinent logic > under their control. > > JFETs are being used as the ACLO/DCLO control devices for a reason. In > contrast to bipolars, the normal/no-gate-voltage state of a JFET is Source- > Drain conducting, thus the initial state at power-up of ACLO-L & DCLO-L will > be 0V/low-impedance-to-GND. The point is to maintain that state until the > power supply levels are good so the logic can be forced into a known state. > > Those three comparators in the H777 are looking at a time-delay ramp Is that a typo? This is the H7140 not the H777. > generated by C14 and the constant-current circuit of Q11. > What is supposed to happen: > - everything is initially 0V: V+5, ACLO, DCLO. > - power is switched on. Internal voltage levels begin to rise. > - after some delay, E4 trips first to start the +5 supply. > - after some more delay, E5 trips, de-asserting DCLO (DCLO = > High,+V). > - after some more delay, E6 trips, de-asserting ACLO (ACLO = > High,+V). > > The delays are presumably of some order of mS. > > -15V is the expected level from the E6 comparator output if AC is good. A > Gate-Drain short in Q14 would be allowing that out to the bus. JFETs can be > flaky, a failed JFET wouldn't be a big surprise. > > So E6.6 = Q14.G = -15V is expected after power-up but an additional concern > would be that a G-D short allowed excessive current from the bus through > the E6 comparator output and damaged E6, or if left on too long burned out > pull-up resistors on the CPU or bus terminator. However the LM301 is > supposed to have current limiting so those things may not have been > damaged. I am a bit confused here. E6 is an opto-coupled isolator. Do you mean E9? It doesn't look to me like Q14 is connected to anything that outputs -15V, but Q15 is. A short in Q15 would surely be more plausible as the reason for -15V on ACLO? > > The scope could be used to observe what is going on with the +5, DCLO, > ACLO sequencing at power up (with bus pull-ups, but without CPU). > > Removing only the ACLO PS-to-bus connection would allow DCLO to still > exercise it's proper POR control. Once bus-ACLO is disconnected from the PS, > look for the clock LED after powering up with both bus-ACLO open (pulled > high by bus & CPU) and bus-ACLO connected to GND. Manually > connecting/disconnecting bus-ACLO to GND after power-up will trigger the > CPU power-fail shutdown and disable the clock. Given that ACLO is not actually connected to E70 and DCLO seems to be operating correctly, I would think that disconnecting the connector is not likely to help in this case. I suspect I am going to have to check for shorts on the backplane and probe the CPU module when it is powered. Thanks Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 31 16:29:33 2022 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 17:29:33 -0400 Subject: Loss of Museum in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: <20220329143819.71FF718C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <52db7acc-3558-c023-cec3-5a722cadf22e@neurotica.com> On 3/29/22 10:51, Brielle via cctalk wrote: > Yes, saw an article that said he was fine. Not sure if there?s been any updates since that article though given how things have escalated? I exchanged email with Dmitry Cherepanov this morning. He is understandably heartbroken, but he and his family are safe, at least for the time being. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 31 16:47:30 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:47:30 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <013d01d84544$5e9cd9e0$1bd68da0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20220331073642.64C9318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <478A63EB-0670-4344-AE19-5AFECD03FEF4@shaw.ca> <013d01d84544$5e9cd9e0$1bd68da0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2022-Mar-31, at 2:14 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Those three comparators in the H777 are looking at a time-delay ramp > > Is that a typo? This is the H7140 not the H777. Groan. When this thread came up I went looking for the 11/24 schematic. I found the document I linked earlier for the 11/24 and found 'the' +5 power supply. So apparently I've been looking at the wrong +5V supply (H777) because the rest of you are indeed looking at a different +5 supply (H7140), both of which are in that same 11/24 pdf document. And indeed, the ACLO control is Q15 in the H7140. I really wish when people are asking for assistance or talking about a schematic or circuit they would include a link/reference to exactly what they are looking at (a) so the reader doesn't have to go scratching around to find it and (b) to avoid effort-wasting screw-ups like this. So yes, you can ignore a lot of the details I described, though some of the principals I mentioned are still valid. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 31 18:12:49 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <20220331231249.C3C0E18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > So apparently I've been looking at the wrong +5V supply (H777) because > the rest of you are indeed looking at a different +5 supply (H7140), > both of which are in that same 11/24 pdf document That's because the H777 is the P/S for the BA11-L 5-1/4" box, and the H7140 is the P/S for the BA11-A 10-1/2" box - both of which are, quite reasonably, covered in the -11/24 print set. > I really wish when people are asking for assistance or talking about a > schematic or circuit they would include a link/reference to exactly > what they are looking at But everone probably _was_ looking at the same document - just different pages! Alas, DEC doesn't number _all_ the pages with a 'unique within the print set' identifier. Still, one could say 'page xx of the PDF'. Noel From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 31 18:38:54 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:38:54 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <20220331231249.C3C0E18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220331231249.C3C0E18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2022-Mar-31, at 4:12 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> So apparently I've been looking at the wrong +5V supply (H777) because >> the rest of you are indeed looking at a different +5 supply (H7140), >> both of which are in that same 11/24 pdf document > > That's because the H777 is the P/S for the BA11-L 5-1/4" box, and the H7140 > is the P/S for the BA11-A 10-1/2" box - both of which are, quite reasonably, > covered in the -11/24 print set. > >> I really wish when people are asking for assistance or talking about a >> schematic or circuit they would include a link/reference to exactly >> what they are looking at > > But everone probably _was_ looking at the same document - just different > pages! Alas, DEC doesn't number _all_ the pages with a 'unique within the > print set' identifier. > Still, one could say 'page xx of the PDF'. Which is what I do in these sorts of discussions, at least if it has not been specified previously, and especially when dealing with larger docs. E.g. from my previous messages in this thread: ref: pdfPg.152,etc of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf pdfPg.30 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf (The latter being the page for the H777 I was mistakenly looking at.) Makes it easier for a recipient, everyone following, and yourself if you have to go back to it in the course of subsequent discussion. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 31 21:44:54 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 22:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards Message-ID: <20220401024454.B0C3318C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > DCLO & ACLO behave as power-on-reset signals to the system. Minor nit: actually, I think it's DCLO which performs that function in a lot of places; see e.g. the latches on pg. K2 (pg. 153 of the PDF) and K7. (INIT, usually in buffered form, is used more widely for this function, but I doubly digress in that observation.) As I explained, ACLO is only used to trigger a 'power-failing' interrupt; CPU operation is otherwise un-affected by ACLO (so the CPU can get ready). DEC P/S's carefully sequence ACLO and DCLO such that on power-down, ACLO is asserted first (to allow the CPU to get ready); on power-up, DCLO is de-asserted first (the later de-assertion of ACLO is the signal for the CPU to start running). However, you make a good point with: > If they are allowed to just float up as the power supply comes up you > have no guarantees as to the end result ('end' meaning the state of > things after the power supply has come up) DEC specs state that DC power has to be up and stable 5 usec before DCLO can be de-asserted ("pdp bus handbook", pg 53). This is precisly so that everything is in a known state when operation commences. So I guess I'll go back to my original suggestion: disconnect the ACLO from the P/S (with its bogus -15V), leaving DCLO, so that it can properly set everything to a known state on power-on, and then you can see see if E70 has been fried, or is still working. > Manually connecting/disconnecting bus-ACLO to GND after power-up will > ... disable the clock. I can't see anything in the clock circuitry on pg. K1 (pg. 152 of the PDF), where all the clocks are generated, that looks at ACLO, or its inverted form POWER OK, or its latched form, PFAIL (both generated in the bottom RH corner of K2)? Did I miss something? All I can see is DCLO. I'm too burned out right now to check for uses of ACLO/POWER-OK/PFAIL, to see definitively what it does do; tomorrow. Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 22:46:35 2022 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 04:46:35 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards In-Reply-To: <20220331231249.C3C0E18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220331231249.C3C0E18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 12:13 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > I really wish when people are asking for assistance or talking about a > > schematic or circuit they would include a link/reference to exactly > > what they are looking at > > But everone probably _was_ looking at the same document - just different Actually I wasn't. I was working from the 11/44 printset (I recognised the power supply as being the same number) -- on paper. And I am not going to start counting pages. However I did say 'bias/interface board' which I am pretty sure is not a part of the H777 PSU. -tony From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 22:05:53 2022 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 23:05:53 -0400 Subject: Glass memory? Message-ID: Hey all, found this on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Corning-Glass-memory-/125087612899 I can't find any info on it - was it some kind of delay-line or magnetic laminate stack? Interesting!