From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 1 12:12:51 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:12:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 780 on eBay Message-ID: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, given that: - the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important - 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) - this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless Anyway I fully expect it to go (because of those, especially i and ii) for a _lot_ more than the opening price. I've sent the seller info on the complete 780 board set, and a suggestion that it's in their own best interest (maximize bidding) to check to see if it's complete. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 12:40:15 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:40:15 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > This: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 > > The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, > given that: > > - the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important > > - 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale > in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) > > - this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU > boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which > seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any > boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located > (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to > keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which makes me very suspicious. I suppose there might be a few American homes that have only 110 volt power, but I'm hard pressed to think of any I have ever seen, and that includes really old houses. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 1 12:46:42 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:46:42 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/1/22 1:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> This: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 >> >> The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, >> given that: >> >> - the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important >> >> - 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale >> in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) >> >> - this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU >> boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which >> seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any >> boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located >> (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to >> keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless > > Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which makes me very suspicious. I suppose there might be a few American homes that have only 110 volt power, but I'm hard pressed to think of any I have ever seen, and that includes really old houses. Having 240 in your house does not necessarily mean you have 240 outlets anywhere and not everyone is capable of doing their own house wiring. bill From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Jan 1 12:49:13 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 18:49:13 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > this is the first one I recall seeing for sale > in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) Last one that went auction-style on eBay went for $1,178.00, local pick-up. I know the buyer. I still wouldn't think $5K is totally unreasonable, given the clean condition and that they're willing to freight it out. > Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which makes me very suspicious. Indeed, Tuscon Buying Group deals in a lot of industrial stuff -- we buy from them at $day_job sometimes. I'd be really surprised if they don't have 240V available for testing somewhere in their shop. Thanks, Jonathan From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Jan 1 12:49:50 2022 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:49:50 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/1/2022 12:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> This: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 >> >> The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, >> given that: >> >> - the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important >> >> - 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale >> in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) >> >> - this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU >> boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which >> seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any >> boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located >> (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to >> keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless > Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which makes me very suspicious. I suppose there might be a few American homes that have only 110 volt power, but I'm hard pressed to think of any I have ever seen, and that includes really old houses. > > paul > > Possibly part of the same installation they have: TU77: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275083502085 (The 11/780 is visible in the background of the first picture) RM05: https://www.ebay.com/itm/284587865252 LA120: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084461044 Prices seem on the high end but not totally unreasonable.? There don't seem to be any RM05 packs included with the drive. -- John H. Reinhardt From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 12:51:23 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:51:23 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/1/22 1:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> This: >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 >>> >>> The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, >>> given that: >>> >>> - the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important >>> >>> - 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale >>> in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) >>> >>> - this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU >>> boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which >>> seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any >>> boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located >>> (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to >>> keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless >> Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which makes me very suspicious. I suppose there might be a few American homes that have only 110 volt power, but I'm hard pressed to think of any I have ever seen, and that includes really old houses. > > Having 240 in your house does not necessarily mean you have > 240 outlets anywhere and not everyone is capable of doing > their own house wiring. True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 12:53:35 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:53:35 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 11:46 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Having 240 in your house does not necessarily mean you have 240 outlets > anywhere and not everyone is capable of doing their own house wiring. There may even be 240 V outlets but not available when / where needed. E.g. in use (stove, dryer, water heater) or too far away to be able to plug the VAX in for testing. Then there's also the chance that the plugs don't match. I do 120 V wiring semi-regular. I've done 240 V wiring before. I'm sure that I'll do it again. But I'm always afraid that failure mode on the 240 V is going to fail spectacularly. My only saving grace is that the breaker will almost certainly trip in short order to mitigate my failure. Thankfully no breaker trips thusfar. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 12:55:40 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:55:40 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/1/22 11:51 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't > seem unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an > extension cord run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. > The absence of that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the > outcome of such a test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. Maybe. But how many "one more step" tests can the seller do vs being honest and up front. Maybe the seller had heard about power supplies (caps) failing spectacularly ~> catastrophically and doesn't know how nor want to do the work to test. What's after the "smoke test"? Or, just call it where it is. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 12:59:52 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:59:52 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <635b6a44-ea4f-a979-c360-1a11c33231a9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 11:49 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Indeed, Tuscon Buying Group deals in a lot of industrial stuff -- > we buy from them at $day_job sometimes. I'd be really surprised if > they don't have 240V available for testing somewhere in their shop. There's a difference in having something /in/ /shop/ vs the shop selling it for someone when it's located elsewhere. Where we see it, the background indicates that the VAX is located in a residential neighborhood. Or at least was when the pictures were taken. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 13:04:39 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:04:39 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86b14be3-6b09-c8d6-23e0-eba2524c6abe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 11:49 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > TU77: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275083502085 (The 11/780 is visible in > the background of the first picture) The TU77 has a 3? power plug on it. That probably explains why testing it would be problematic in a residential settings. 1?240V is vastly different than 3?120/208V. The picture after the plug also looks remarkably like the back plane of the VAX. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 13:10:00 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:10:00 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0bdd1e2d-4cc5-dd23-b739-2905db35e2ae@pico-systems.com> On 1/1/22 12:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 > > The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, > given that: > They don't have a front picture, but there is a rear picture of a TU-77/TU-78 tape drive interior. As for testing, the 780 came wired for 208/240 3 phase power, with a big 5-pin plug. The CPU cabinet seems to have 2 Massbus controllers, I think. So, maybe there's a Massbus disk included. Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 1 13:11:00 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 1/1/22 1:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/1/22 11:46 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Having 240 in your house does not necessarily mean you have 240 >> outlets anywhere and not everyone is capable of doing their own house >> wiring. > > There may even be 240 V outlets but not available when / where needed. > E.g. in use (stove, dryer, water heater) or too far away to be able to > plug the VAX in for testing.? Then there's also the chance that the > plugs don't match. > > I do 120 V wiring semi-regular.? I've done 240 V wiring before.? I'm > sure that I'll do it again.? But I'm always afraid that failure mode on > the 240 V is going to fail spectacularly.? My only saving grace is that > the breaker will almost certainly trip in short order to mitigate my > failure.? Thankfully no breaker trips thusfar. In my current house I have done 240V/50A wiring, 240V/50A Sub Panel, lots of 240V/30A outlets. None of which I would advise the usual amateur to do. :-) Just out of curiosity, how much current is needed for an 11/780? bill From drb at msu.edu Sat Jan 1 13:17:02 2022 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 14:17:02 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 01 Jan 2022 14:11:00 -0500.) References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > In my current house I have done 240V/50A wiring, 240V/50A Sub Panel, > lots of 240V/30A outlets. None of which I would advise the usual > amateur to do. :-) IIRC nothing in the VAX cpu actually requires 3 phase. The PDU(s) just eat that from the wall. De From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 13:19:29 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:19:29 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/1/22 12:51 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> > True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. > > The /780 came standard with a 5-pin Hubbell twist-lock connector for 3-phase 208/240 V WYE power. While it could be rewired for single-phase power, it would take fairly massive rewiring of the power control.? The 3 blowers all ran off line-line power, I think, and the H7100 power supplies ran off 120V line-neutral from different phases. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 13:21:44 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:21:44 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 12:17 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > IIRC nothing in the VAX cpu actually requires 3 phase. The PDU(s) > just eat that from the wall. I think that's the same with all the /computer/ equipment that I've seen which connects to 3? power. A single phase could be used for all of it. But I'm told that it's simpler / more economical (from a wiring / cable plant point of view) to deliver more power to the equipment as 3? than it is 1?. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Jan 1 13:31:43 2022 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:31:43 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <0bdd1e2d-4cc5-dd23-b739-2905db35e2ae@pico-systems.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0bdd1e2d-4cc5-dd23-b739-2905db35e2ae@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4436165a-969a-e7f6-7dd5-a2858a75ea04@thereinhardts.org> On 1/1/2022 1:10 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/1/22 12:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> This: >> >> ???? https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 >> >> The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, >> given that: >> > They don't have a front picture, but there is a rear picture of a TU-77/TU-78 tape drive interior. > > As for testing, the 780 came wired for 208/240 3 phase power, with a big 5-pin plug. > > The CPU cabinet seems to have 2 Massbus controllers, I think. So, maybe there's a Massbus disk included. > > Jon > > In separate auctions they have a RM05 and a TU77 TU77: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275083502085 (The 11/780 is visible in the background of the first picture) RM05: https://www.ebay.com/itm/284587865252 -- John H. Reinhardt From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 13:33:19 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 14:33:19 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> > On Jan 1, 2022, at 2:21 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/1/22 12:17 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> IIRC nothing in the VAX cpu actually requires 3 phase. The PDU(s) just eat that from the wall. > > I think that's the same with all the /computer/ equipment that I've seen which connects to 3? power. A single phase could be used for all of it. But I'm told that it's simpler / more economical (from a wiring / cable plant point of view) to deliver more power to the equipment as 3? than it is 1?. Largely true, but some disk drives (RP06? RP04?) use 3-phase spindle motors. And mainframes may use 3-phase power supplies; CDC 6000 mainframes do, though with those it's 3 phase 400 Hz produced by motor-generators (which in turn run off 3-phase mains power). paul From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Jan 1 13:35:20 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 19:35:20 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > I think that's the same with all the /computer/ equipment that I've seen > which connects to 3? power. A single phase could be used for all of it. Computer exist which require three phase at a unit power supply level. It's often also used for large blowers if the cabinet(s) don't strictly require airflow from e.g. a raised floor. > But I'm told that it's simpler / more economical (from a wiring / > cable plant point of view) to deliver more power to the equipment as 3? > than it is 1?. It also saves you on current-carrying conductors for raceway fill calculations as long as your power factor isn't too bad. Thanks, Jonathan From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 13:36:34 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:36:34 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <305c9900-dc31-1535-42fd-30c5de2a0332@pico-systems.com> On 1/1/22 1:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Just out of curiosity, how much current is needed for an > 11/780? Depending on options, the CPU cabinet would draw about 10-12 A per line, 3-Phase 208 V.? And, that is on the upper end of the range.? Starting surge would be a lot more, of course. Jon From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Jan 1 13:37:41 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 19:37:41 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Sorta nitpick, but: > 3-phase 208/240 V WYE power Not a thing. It's 120/208Y or 240 delta, high leg or not. Nameplates suggest 120/208Y which is the most common "not a machine shop" configuration. Thanks, Jonathan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 13:38:46 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:38:46 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 12:33 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > And mainframes may use 3-phase power supplies; CDC 6000 mainframes do, > though with those it's 3 phase 400 Hz produced by motor-generators > (which in turn run off 3-phase mains power). I know that some IBM mainframes prefer 3? power but I know of multiple people that have re-wired their CECs to use 1? power. They too are largely independent 1? supplies on different phases to jointly power a common internal bus. So re-wiring the necessary supplies to the same phase is mostly not a big deal. Apparently even IBM sold and supported some systems in this configuration. The only down side is that it put an upper cap on the amount of power that you could draw and thus things that you could run in this configuration. But for smaller installations, it's perfectly fine. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From drb at msu.edu Sat Jan 1 13:43:55 2022 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 14:43:55 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 01 Jan 2022 12:38:46 -0700.) <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20220101194355.8C44D2D02D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I know that some IBM mainframes prefer 3? power but I know of multiple > people that have re-wired their CECs to use 1? power. My Multiprise 2003/205 claims to want a pair of 3-phase inputs. I've run it on two "phases" on a single side. It bitches, of course, and one loses the intended redundancy, but it runs. De From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 13:44:37 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 14:44:37 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <4B5F3F0A-43D5-4BE4-85F7-A91A95458743@comcast.net> > On Jan 1, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/1/22 12:33 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> And mainframes may use 3-phase power supplies; CDC 6000 mainframes do, though with those it's 3 phase 400 Hz produced by motor-generators (which in turn run off 3-phase mains power). > > I know that some IBM mainframes prefer 3? power but I know of multiple people that have re-wired their CECs to use 1? power. They too are largely independent 1? supplies on different phases to jointly power a common internal bus. So re-wiring the necessary supplies to the same phase is mostly not a big deal. > > Apparently even IBM sold and supported some systems in this configuration. The only down side is that it put an upper cap on the amount of power that you could draw and thus things that you could run in this configuration. But for smaller installations, it's perfectly fine. Could be. For the CDC case, I see actual 3-phase DC supplies, i.e., 3 phase bridge rectifiers fed by 3-phase transformers. If you run those off one phase the ripple would be a lot larger. And of course 400 Hz gave them an additional advantage in reduced transformer size and reduced ripple (for a given filter capacitor). They'd do this even in devices that don't draw large amounts of power, for example the DD60 console display gets its power (other than fans which are single phase mains power) from the 400 Hz 3-phase supply feeding the mainframe. I'd be surprised if it uses even a kW, so this was probably a case of "why not since it's there to be used". paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Sat Jan 1 13:50:57 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:50:57 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. > But what would that accomplish? I think testing something like this requires a lot more effort than plugging it in and hitting the circuit breaker. To test this to see if some ODT comes up probably requires quite a lot of effort (locate a terminal/pc, wire it up, figure out where to plug it into the 780, etc. If this guy is a bulk dealer I would be surprised if he has the knowledge to do anything more than a power test which, again, would not be very useful and could even be detrimental. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 13:57:58 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:57:58 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220101194355.8C44D2D02D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> <20220101194355.8C44D2D02D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5a5f13ea-aa6b-1937-5508-c61505f74678@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 12:43 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > My Multiprise 2003/205 claims to want a pair of 3-phase inputs. Is it assumed that those 2 x 3? inputs are feed from different paths, thus path redundancy? I'd think that the phases would be the same. > I've run it on two "phases" on a single side. I have questions.... Where are you getting two /different/ phases? -- Remember, the different legs on residential 120/240 wiring are really the same single phase. How do you get *two* /different/ phases without access to a *third* phase? There are only a few places in the U.S.A. (and I'm not aware of anywhere else in the world) that actually have 2? power (where the ? are 90? out of phase with each other). What is a phase vs what is a line comes into context here. > It bitches, of course, I could see how wiring two legs of a 120/240 1? as if it were 2 phases of a 3? supply would make something mad. > and one loses the intended redundancy, but it runs. Indeed. But if one is doing this, chances are fairly good that one is most interested in the fact that /it/ /runs/ and cares much less about /redundancy/. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From w2hx at w2hx.com Sat Jan 1 13:56:18 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:56:18 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <0f7731ebaa8f4f21b0d12f8d733bdb8f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> The other benefit to 3phase power to something like a computer is that the filter caps required can be much smaller. Once you rectify three phases 60* you get MUCH less ripple because every 60 degrees you have a new peak arriving. When you have a real gas (electron) guzzler like one of these, DC filtering becomes an issue. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jonathan Chapman via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2022 2:35 PM To: Grant Taylor ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAX 780 on eBay > I think that's the same with all the /computer/ equipment that I've > seen which connects to 3? power. A single phase could be used for all of it. Computer exist which require three phase at a unit power supply level. It's often also used for large blowers if the cabinet(s) don't strictly require airflow from e.g. a raised floor. > But I'm told that it's simpler / more economical (from a wiring / > cable plant point of view) to deliver more power to the equipment as > 3? than it is 1?. It also saves you on current-carrying conductors for raceway fill calculations as long as your power factor isn't too bad. Thanks, Jonathan From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Jan 1 13:59:58 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 19:59:58 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <5a5f13ea-aa6b-1937-5508-c61505f74678@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> <20220101194355.8C44D2D02D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5a5f13ea-aa6b-1937-5508-c61505f74678@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1w1UE1iaL3-hOn779xpq73t0sUs5pdvM1f3MO3PBeQu7-NJplnGakWH_HZ6zPp685Ik1RI-CVT62vMm_TgSGWA3ej1cDr-6PEZkBNhhAPE0=@glitchwrks.com> > I have questions.... > > Where are you getting two /different/ phases? -- Remember, the > different legs on residential 120/240 wiring are really the same single > phase. They're 180 degrees out. Sufficiently different for a number of applications, but certainly not all! Thanks, Jonathan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 14:08:18 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:08:18 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4B5F3F0A-43D5-4BE4-85F7-A91A95458743@comcast.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4B5F3F0A-43D5-4BE4-85F7-A91A95458743@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9adcc239-7dbd-7ca3-cf1c-d5993fc641b3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 12:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Could be. For the CDC case, I see actual 3-phase DC supplies, i.e., > 3 phase bridge rectifiers fed by 3-phase transformers. Interesting. That brings to mind 6? DC supplies. -- Two typical 3? rectifier networks (making DC pulses be 60? apart) separated by a ? / Y or Y / ? transformer inducing a 30? phase shift between them. Thereby causing a net effect of 12 x DC pulses 30? apart. > If you run those off one phase the ripple would be a lot larger. Indeed. > And of course 400 Hz gave them an additional advantage in reduced > transformer size and reduced ripple (for a given filter capacitor). I was going to ask how the frequency altered the size of the ripple, but "for a given filter capacitor" makes sense. You are messing with the ratio and having a fixed value "for a given filter capacitor". -- If I'm even remotely understanding correctly. > They'd do this even in devices that don't draw large amounts of power, > for example the DD60 console display gets its power (other than fans > which are single phase mains power) from the 400 Hz 3-phase supply > feeding the mainframe. I'd be surprised if it uses even a kW, so > this was probably a case of "why not since it's there to be used". My understanding is that some of the special power requirements had more to do with isolation and cleanliness / quality of the power. Meaning don't try to power the equipment off of the same circuit(s) that motors and the likes are on which will induce lots of noise on the line, some of which might make it into the computer and adversely effect things. The motor / generator provides a quite strong isolation for things like that. Probably more so than just a normal transformer. The frequency change means that a simple isolation transformer won't suffice. The higher frequency also has benefits of reducing the size of other down stream components. I find this to be interesting to learn, even if I'll almost certainly never actually work near anything that uses it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jan 1 14:11:35 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:11:35 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <1w1UE1iaL3-hOn779xpq73t0sUs5pdvM1f3MO3PBeQu7-NJplnGakWH_HZ6zPp685Ik1RI-CVT62vMm_TgSGWA3ej1cDr-6PEZkBNhhAPE0=@glitchwrks.com> References: <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> <20220101194355.8C44D2D02D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5a5f13ea-aa6b-1937-5508-c61505f74678@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1w1UE1iaL3-hOn779xpq73t0sUs5pdvM1f3MO3PBeQu7-NJplnGakWH_HZ6zPp685Ik1RI-CVT62vMm_TgSGWA3ej1cDr-6PEZkBNhhAPE0=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: On 1/1/22 12:59 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > They're 180 degrees out. Sufficiently different for a number of > applications, but certainly not all! They are 180? out of phase with respect to each other. But they are the same single phase when viewed by anything outside of them. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From pat at vax11.net Sat Jan 1 14:16:22 2022 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 15:16:22 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: It splits the input 3 phase 120/208 30A input to separate 120V circuits. 3*30A 120V circuits if you want. Mine used about 3KVA, so it'll actually (just barely) run off of a single 30A/120V or multiple 15/20A 120V circuits if you rewire the input a bit. Patrick Finnegan On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 14:11 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/1/22 1:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/1/22 11:46 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> Having 240 in your house does not necessarily mean you have 240 > >> outlets anywhere and not everyone is capable of doing their own house > >> wiring. > > > > There may even be 240 V outlets but not available when / where needed. > > E.g. in use (stove, dryer, water heater) or too far away to be able to > > plug the VAX in for testing. Then there's also the chance that the > > plugs don't match. > > > > I do 120 V wiring semi-regular. I've done 240 V wiring before. I'm > > sure that I'll do it again. But I'm always afraid that failure mode on > > the 240 V is going to fail spectacularly. My only saving grace is that > > the breaker will almost certainly trip in short order to mitigate my > > failure. Thankfully no breaker trips thusfar. > > In my current house I have done 240V/50A wiring, 240V/50A Sub Panel, > lots of 240V/30A outlets. None of which I would advise the usual > amateur to do. :-) > > Just out of curiosity, how much current is needed for an 11/780? > > bill > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 14:19:14 2022 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:19:14 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 11:55 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > > True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem > unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord > run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of > that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a > test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. > > > > But what would that accomplish? I think testing something like this > requires a lot more effort than plugging it in and hitting the circuit > breaker. To test this to see if some ODT comes up probably requires quite a > lot of effort (locate a terminal/pc, wire it up, figure out where to plug > it into the 780, etc. If this guy is a bulk dealer I would be surprised if > he has the knowledge to do anything more than a power test which, again, > would not be very useful and could even be detrimental. > Right. I'll pay significantly less for an 11/780 that some random scrapper has powered up. - Josh > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: > https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 14:27:24 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 15:27:24 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <9adcc239-7dbd-7ca3-cf1c-d5993fc641b3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4B5F3F0A-43D5-4BE4-85F7-A91A95458743@comcast.net> <9adcc239-7dbd-7ca3-cf1c-d5993fc641b3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6E7113C7-DB8F-4C0A-AF1B-54DB106B3C61@comcast.net> > On Jan 1, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/1/22 12:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> And of course 400 Hz gave them an additional advantage in reduced transformer size and reduced ripple (for a given filter capacitor). > > I was going to ask how the frequency altered the size of the ripple, but "for a given filter capacitor" makes sense. You are messing with the ratio and having a fixed value "for a given filter capacitor". -- If I'm even remotely understanding correctly. The impedance of a capacitor is inversely proportional to the frequency. Given a desired ripple for a given load, you get the needed capacitor impedance, so if you increase the freqency you'd end up with smaller capacitors. You see this, big time, in modern switching supplies, where the frequency may into the many kHz or sometimes even a MHz or so, resulting in tiny filter capacitors. >> They'd do this even in devices that don't draw large amounts of power, for example the DD60 console display gets its power (other than fans which are single phase mains power) from the 400 Hz 3-phase supply feeding the mainframe. I'd be surprised if it uses even a kW, so this was probably a case of "why not since it's there to be used". > > My understanding is that some of the special power requirements had more to do with isolation and cleanliness / quality of the power. Meaning don't try to power the equipment off of the same circuit(s) that motors and the likes are on which will induce lots of noise on the line, some of which might make it into the computer and adversely effect things. True. And I forgot about the fact that you'd want to run devices interconnected by logic level signals (which is the case here) from a common power source. A lot of CDC peripherals are transformer coupled (the coax signals used in I/O channels are built that way) but the DD60 connections are DC-coupled. > The motor / generator provides a quite strong isolation for things like that. Probably more so than just a normal transformer. Way more because of inertia. Not quite a UPS, but short power glitches enough to blink the computer room lights are not going to be seen by the mainframe. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 14:27:34 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 14:27:34 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/1/22 1:50 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. > But what would that accomplish? I think testing something like this requires a lot more effort than plugging it in and hitting the circuit breaker. To test this to see if some ODT comes up probably requires quite a lot of effort (locate a terminal/pc, wire it up, figure out where to plug it into the 780, etc. If this guy is a bulk dealer I would be surprised if he has the knowledge to do anything more than a power test which, again, would not be very useful and could even be detrimental. > > The /780 needs a readable "console floppy" and working drive.? It loads microcode from the floppy and runs some power-on self-tests before even starting the VAX CPU.? Not real likely the floppy is going to be in good condition or the drive, either.? Also, the cooling blowers below the circuit boards are likely to be seized and need new bearings.? Not to mention the cap banks in the power supplies at least need to be re-formed.? Likely, this machine has not been turned on since 1990 or so, (just guessing). Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 14:32:59 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 14:32:59 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <0f7731ebaa8f4f21b0d12f8d733bdb8f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <0f7731ebaa8f4f21b0d12f8d733bdb8f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <75583f33-57a1-593b-9dd0-d838cf3bdc02@pico-systems.com> On 1/1/22 1:56 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > The other benefit to 3phase power to something like a computer is that the filter caps required can be much smaller. Once you rectify three phases 60* you get MUCH less ripple because every 60 degrees you have a new peak arriving. When you have a real gas (electron) guzzler like one of these, DC filtering becomes an issue. > But, they DIDN'T!? All power supplies on the /780 were single phase. On the IBM 370/145, they used a motor/generator set to convert 208/3 phase 60 Hz power to 415 Hz 3-phase 120 V regulated power, then fed that to 3-phase transformer/rectifiers, and finally to low-drop regulators.? They also used "electronic capacitors", which was a scheme to pull extra current through the smoothing inductor during the voltage peaks, to even out the ripple.? The 370/145 had 2 power supplies, one for +1.25 V 390A and the other for -3 V 390A. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 1 14:35:55 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:35:55 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <305c9900-dc31-1535-42fd-30c5de2a0332@pico-systems.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <305c9900-dc31-1535-42fd-30c5de2a0332@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2022-01-01 12:36 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/1/22 1:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Just out of curiosity, how much current is needed for an 11/780? > > Depending on options, the CPU cabinet would draw about 10-12 A per line, > 3-Phase 208 V.? And, that is on the upper end of the range.? Starting > surge would be a lot more, of course. > > Jon > How much power is used for memory and hard drives? Ben. From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Jan 1 14:46:01 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 20:46:01 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <6E7113C7-DB8F-4C0A-AF1B-54DB106B3C61@comcast.net> References: <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> <2534790c-1f35-ce0f-39a1-7500b08ca215@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4B5F3F0A-43D5-4BE4-85F7-A91A95458743@comcast.net> <9adcc239-7dbd-7ca3-cf1c-d5993fc641b3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6E7113C7-DB8F-4C0A-AF1B-54DB106B3C61@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Way more because of inertia. Not quite a UPS, but short power glitches enough to blink the computer room lights are not going to be seen by the mainframe. Indeed, one can purchase flywheel systems to ride through genset startup time on inertia! Thanks, Jonathan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 1 14:46:07 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 15:46:07 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > TU77: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275083502085 (The 11/780 is visible in That looks complete with the TM03 formatter. > RM05: https://www.ebay.com/itm/284587865252 That looks like it's missing the MassBus adapter. I think two RM05's shared a cabinet between them that contained the MBA logic. Not sure if a RM03's MBA will work, quite possible (I have an RM80 that is on top of a RM03 controller MBA) CZ From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Jan 1 14:44:25 2022 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2022 07:44:25 +1100 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20220102074425.018e62a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:50 PM 1/01/2022 +0000, you wrote: >> >True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. >> > >But what would that accomplish? I think testing something like this requires a lot more effort than plugging it in and hitting the circuit breaker. To test this to see if some ODT comes up probably requires quite a lot of effort (locate a terminal/pc, wire it up, figure out where to plug it into the 780, etc. If this guy is a bulk dealer I would be surprised if he has the knowledge to do anything more than a power test which, again, would not be very useful and could even be detrimental. Exactly. The machine has a 3-phase 208/240V plug, they don't have such an outlet. Their efforts stop right there. But you're all focussed on that, and missing another important detail. The machine has a liquid cooling system. Some of the hoses look like they are Tygon, in the age-decayed brittle stage. Touch them and they crumble away. Running the machine without cooling would utterly wreck it. Even if they solved the mains power problem, they would be very unwise to actually power it up. The 'installation and configuration' manual for this machine would be huge. They don't have it. Plus, it's a mainframe. Not even any blinkenlights. Without setting it up as a complete system with everything interconnected properly, how would you even know it was running correctly? Plus you can safely assume at least some of the system unit interconnect cables are missing. Potentially weeks, even months of restoration work for a buyer, before even daring to apply power. Then if there's anything wrong in the electronics, good luck diagnosing and getting spare parts. Considering the uncertainties plus high transport, restoration, operating and manhour costs, who'd buy it? A museum perhaps? Or someone wanting a 'static display object' never intending to run it. Guy From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 1 14:49:56 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 15:49:56 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <86b14be3-6b09-c8d6-23e0-eba2524c6abe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86b14be3-6b09-c8d6-23e0-eba2524c6abe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > The TU77 has a 3? power plug on it.? That probably explains why testing > it would be problematic in a residential settings. A TU77 can run on household 240v. If I recall it used the 240 for the big blower motor and the rest of the stuff ran on 110. > 1?240V is vastly different than 3?120/208V. 1 phase 240 is just 2 120 volts out of phase. Looking at the 780 it has 3-5 power supplies in it, each one running on 120v. My guess is the main fan blower is 3 phase 208, and each of the power supplies is run off a 208-common leg (giving 120v). Big ole monster, but if you can put a 240v motor on the blower you should be able to rewire it to run on a couple of household 240 circuits. C (Ran a KS10, TU77, and 2 RM03's in a spare bedroom once. It has... upgraded wiring) From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 1 15:00:45 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 16:00:45 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> > In my current house I have done 240V/50A wiring, 240V/50A Sub Panel, > lots of 240V/30A outlets.? None of which I would advise the usual > amateur to do.? :-) This is wise, but 240v is quite nice for computer equipment. I had an electrician run a 240v 30a (10g wire) circuit out to my work shed, where a subpanel is installed with 120v 15a and 240v 15a circuits for the equipment. 240 just allows you to get twice the power to the device using the same size wire (14g for 15a for example). But modern switching computer supplies are more efficient at 240v than 120v so you waste less power. 120 is good for like light bulbs and stuff. Drawing over say 10a continuous at 120 will pretty much burn up sockets and such in short order. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 1 15:19:51 2022 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:19:51 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> On 1/1/22 10:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> This: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 >> >> The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, >> given that: >> >> - the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important >> >> - 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale >> in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) >> >> - this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU >> boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which >> seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any >> boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located >> (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to >> keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless > Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which makes me very suspicious. I suppose there might be a few American homes that have only 110 volt power, but I'm hard pressed to think of any I have ever seen, and that includes really old houses. Without replacing the power controller in the 11/780, you need 208v 3-phase to run it.? It's not impossible...nothing in the CPU actually *needs* 3-phase as the individual power supplies are 120v but the overall maximum load is greater than a 30A 120v circuit. TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 15:19:24 2022 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:19:24 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20220102074425.018e62a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3.0.6.32.20220102074425.018e62a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 12:47 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 07:50 PM 1/01/2022 +0000, you wrote: > >> > >True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem > unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord > run to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of > that effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a > test would be and doesn't want to have to report it. > >> > > > >But what would that accomplish? I think testing something like this > requires a lot more effort than plugging it in and hitting the circuit > breaker. To test this to see if some ODT comes up probably requires quite a > lot of effort (locate a terminal/pc, wire it up, figure out where to plug > it into the 780, etc. If this guy is a bulk dealer I would be surprised if > he has the knowledge to do anything more than a power test which, again, > would not be very useful and could even be detrimental. > > > Exactly. The machine has a 3-phase 208/240V plug, they don't have such an > outlet. Their efforts stop right there. > > But you're all focussed on that, and missing another important detail. The > machine has a liquid cooling system. > Some of the hoses look like they are Tygon, in the age-decayed brittle > stage. Touch them and they crumble away. > Running the machine without cooling would utterly wreck it. Even if they > solved the mains power problem, > they would be very unwise to actually power it up. > For clarification -- the 11/780 is not liquid cooled. The seller mixed up some photos between the TU77 listing and the 11/780 listing (the TU77 listing has photos of the 11/780's backplane in it just to make things more fun). Agreed on all other counts, though, powering this thing up blindly is a dumb idea. - Josh From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 15:30:52 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 16:30:52 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3.0.6.32.20220102074425.018e62a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > On Jan 1, 2022, at 4:19 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 12:47 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk > wrote: > >> ... >> But you're all focussed on that, and missing another important detail. The >> machine has a liquid cooling system. >> ... > > For clarification -- the 11/780 is not liquid cooled. Correct. Did DEC make any liquid cooled machines? There was a large VAX which was going to be, code-named Aquarius, but I think they canceled that one and redid the design to be air-cooled, codename Aridus. That's the VAX 9000 if I remember right. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 16:24:45 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 16:24:45 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <305c9900-dc31-1535-42fd-30c5de2a0332@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <457518f3-48f8-82fe-91b2-d3cce00a15bf@pico-systems.com> On 1/1/22 2:35 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-01-01 12:36 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/1/22 1:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> Just out of curiosity, how much current is needed for an >>> 11/780? >> >> Depending on options, the CPU cabinet would draw about >> 10-12 A per line, 3-Phase 208 V.? And, that is on the >> upper end of the range.? Starting surge would be a lot >> more, of course. >> >> Jon >> > How much power is used for memory > and hard drives? memory power was provided by the row of power supplies below the CPU cards as seen in the pics. Memory power on the /780 was pretty insignificant, as that system didn't have large memories. The original /780 had 256 KB memory cards, I think the one in the current sale has the newer memory system with 1 MB/card. Hard drive power was QUITE substantial, the bigger drives had pretty big 3 phase motors to spin the big disk packs/HDA's. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 16:33:02 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 16:33:02 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3.0.6.32.20220102074425.018e62a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/1/22 3:19 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > For clarification -- the 11/780 is not liquid cooled. The seller mixed up > some photos between the TU77 listing and the 11/780 listing (the TU77 > listing has photos of the 11/780's backplane in it just to make things more > fun). Agreed on all other counts, though, powering this thing up blindly > is a dumb idea. > Right!? The cooling gear on the back of the TU77 is to cool the bearing air, to keep from melting the tape.? We had nasty tape sticking when running backups with our original TU77.? DEC told us about the problem and advised to open the cabinet back door when running the drive for long periods.? Then, they installed a mod kit with the extra tubes and radiator and additional fans, and that solved the issue. The VAX 11/780 is most certainly air-cooled, but does have impressive centrifugal blowers shooting vast quantities of air out the back.? Watch out, women with short skirts, when you walk behind the CPU! DEC apparently designed a liquid-cooled VAX code-named Aquarius, but it was never fielded.? A later air-cooled version was called Aridus. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 1 16:42:59 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 16:42:59 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20220102074425.018e62a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3.0.6.32.20220102074425.018e62a8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <65b6f054-68eb-1b42-76a7-86646aa1b716@pico-systems.com> On 1/1/22 2:44 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> >> >> The 'installation and configuration' manual for this machine would be huge. They don't have it. On bitsavers.? I just paged through it to check power consumption. >> >> Plus, it's a mainframe. Not even any blinkenlights. Without setting it up as a complete system >> with everything interconnected properly, how would you even know it was running correctly? Well, you need to hook up a serial console terminal, and the console floppy needs to work.? That has power-up self tests, which will be quite helpful in the beginning.? Then, there would be a diagnostic tape that could run further detailed tests. >> Plus you can safely assume at least some of the system unit interconnect cables are missing. These should all be in the manuals on bitsavers.? I'm pretty sure they have the complete /780 print set, which was 11x17" and about 2" thick! >> >> Potentially weeks, even months of restoration work for a buyer, before even daring to apply power. >> Then if there's anything wrong in the electronics, good luck diagnosing and getting spare parts. Yes, getting a copy of the diags tape would be hugely helpful, but probably somebody has that. Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 1 17:40:40 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 18:40:40 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R Message-ID: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> Quick question: I'm going through my old cables looking for the paddle interface for the Current loop for my pdp8/L. I thought I saved one from my old pdp8/I, maybe not. Regardless, I found a M857 board with a RS232 cable on it and BC01R-25 on it. Was that for a pdp11/05 by chance? Oddly enough I also found the interface adapter that goes into my VT52 to support 20ma current loop devices. I currently use the VT52 as an RS232 console for my pdp11, but still, Wow. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 17:52:13 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 18:52:13 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R In-Reply-To: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 6:40 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Regardless, I found a M857 board with a RS232 cable on it and BC01R-25 > on it. Was that for a pdp11/05 by chance? I found this reference from the Cables Handbook. Sounds like it was a generic cable that probably worked with several devices. http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/43.jpg My recollection was that the PDP-11/05 had a special 40-pin Berg connector off the backplane for the integrated Console SLU. -ethan From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 18:03:33 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:03:33 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R In-Reply-To: References: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Found here: http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/43.jpg Digital Cables Handbook Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-01 18:52, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 6:40 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> Regardless, I found a M857 board with a RS232 cable on it and BC01R-25 >> on it. Was that for a pdp11/05 by chance? > I found this reference from the Cables Handbook. Sounds like it was a > generic cable that probably worked with several devices. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/43.jpg > > My recollection was that the PDP-11/05 had a special 40-pin Berg > connector off the backplane for the integrated Console SLU. > > -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 19:55:36 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 20:55:36 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R In-Reply-To: References: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 7:03 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Found here: > > http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/43.jpg https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=249 Bill > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 2 00:20:23 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 23:20:23 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/22 2:00 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > This is wise, but 240v is quite nice for computer equipment. I had an > electrician run a 240v 30a (10g wire) circuit out to my work shed, where > a subpanel is installed with 120v 15a and 240v 15a circuits for the > equipment. I had two 120v 20A circuits, one on each leg of the 120v/240v residential feed, run to my computer equipment in the house I sold a few years ago. I'd like to have the same again once I finally set things up the way that I want to. I'd really like 3? at home for a number of different things. That would allow me to run computer equipment at 208v which, as I understand it, is more efficient than 120v. I don't think anything I do would actually /need/ 240v. I'd also like 3? for other things in the house, namely wood working tools. > 240 just allows you to get twice the power to the device using the same > size wire (14g for 15a for example). Ya. One might wonder why higher voltage means that you can get twice the power (wattage) to something. But that's where the fact that most wire used for 120v circuits is rated for up to 250v which means that the same wire can safely carry 240v. Hence how you can get twice the power by doubling the voltage. > But modern switching computer supplies are more efficient at 240v > than 120v so you waste less power. Do you have something that you can point to as reference? Where does 208v compare to 240v / 120v? > 120 is good for like light bulbs and stuff. Drawing over say 10a > continuous at 120 will pretty much burn up sockets and such in short order. It depends on the quality of the socket. My understanding is that a NEMA 5-15 is rated to sustain 15A at 120V indefinitely. Then there are NEMA 5-20s which are rated for 20A. So ... over 10A continuous seems quite possible if not expected with some installations. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 2 01:29:44 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 07:29:44 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> Can anyone help me to understand why all my RF30 disks report the same diagnostic code 0x300B? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 23 December 2021 17:46 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > I have tried three different RF30 disks, two of them from one source and one > from a completely different source, so completely different histories. They > all give me the same diagnostic error code, 0x300B, which seems to be too > much of a coincidence, so I think it may be something in my configuration. > > I am using a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655 with KFQSA). When I power on, the fault > light comes on and then goes out after a while. This I believe is normal > behaviour. However, as soon as I try to access the disk (e.g. SHOW DEVICES > in the console firmware) the fault light come on and when I boot to VMS > (from a different disk), VMS can't see the drive. > > I thought it might be some kind of DSSI ID conflict because I have an RF72 in > the machine at ID 0. Removing the RF72 does not change the behaviour. > Installing an ID=0 plug on the RF30 does not change the behaviour. I set the > DIP switches on the RF30s to have an ID=1 and still it doesn't work and > PARAMS reports UNITNUM=0. I followed this page > http://mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html but it didn't > work: > > PARAMS> sho /mscp > > Parameter Current Default Type Radix > --------- ---------------- ---------------- -------- ----- > MSCPNVR 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 String Hex RO > UNITID 1502401193918703 0000000000000 Quadword Hex RO > ALLCLASS 0 0 Byte Dec B > MEDIAID 2264601E 2264601E Longword Hex RO U > UNITNUM 0 0 Word Dec U > FIVEDIME 1 1 Boolean 0/1 B > FORCEUNI 1 1 Boolean 0/1 U > FORCECID 1 1 Boolean 0/1 RO > CNT_TMO 60 60 Word Dec RO > > PARAMS> set unitnum 1 > > PARAMS> set forceuni 0 > > PARAMS> write > Failed to acquire unit, cannot WRITE > > Am I doing something wrong? > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > via cctalk > > Sent: 23 December 2021 09:45 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? > > > > >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params > > PARAMS> status config > > > > Configuration: > > Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller > > Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 > > Electronics module name is EN94019334 > > Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) > > Last known unit failure code 300B(X) > > In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times > > System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It is not > > > on > > Manx and > > > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number is > > > apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 07:01:01 2022 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 13:01:01 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> Rob, I know this is probably a stupid suggestion, but are they terminated correctly? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 02 January 2022 07:30 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > Can anyone help me to understand why all my RF30 disks report the same > diagnostic code 0x300B? > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 23 December 2021 17:46 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; > 'General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > I have tried three different RF30 disks, two of them from one source > > and > one > > from a completely different source, so completely different histories. > They > > all give me the same diagnostic error code, 0x300B, which seems to be > > too much of a coincidence, so I think it may be something in my > configuration. > > > > I am using a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655 with KFQSA). When I power on, the > > fault light comes on and then goes out after a while. This I believe > > is normal behaviour. However, as soon as I try to access the disk > > (e.g. SHOW DEVICES in the console firmware) the fault light come on > > and when I boot to VMS (from a different disk), VMS can't see the drive. > > > > I thought it might be some kind of DSSI ID conflict because I have an > > RF72 > in > > the machine at ID 0. Removing the RF72 does not change the behaviour. > > Installing an ID=0 plug on the RF30 does not change the behaviour. I > > set > the > > DIP switches on the RF30s to have an ID=1 and still it doesn't work > > and PARAMS reports UNITNUM=0. I followed this page > > http://mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html but it didn't > > work: > > > > PARAMS> sho /mscp > > > > Parameter Current Default Type Radix > > --------- ---------------- ---------------- -------- ----- > > MSCPNVR 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 String Hex RO > > UNITID 1502401193918703 0000000000000 Quadword Hex RO > > ALLCLASS 0 0 Byte Dec B > > MEDIAID 2264601E 2264601E Longword Hex RO U > > UNITNUM 0 0 Word Dec U > > FIVEDIME 1 1 Boolean 0/1 B > > FORCEUNI 1 1 Boolean 0/1 U > > FORCECID 1 1 Boolean 0/1 RO > > CNT_TMO 60 60 Word Dec RO > > > > PARAMS> set unitnum 1 > > > > PARAMS> set forceuni 0 > > > > PARAMS> write > > Failed to acquire unit, cannot WRITE > > > > Am I doing something wrong? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 09:45 > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? > > > > > > >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params > > > PARAMS> status config > > > > > > Configuration: > > > Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller > > > Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 > > > Electronics module name is EN94019334 > > > Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) > > > Last known unit failure code 300B(X) > > > In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times > > > System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It is > > > > not on > > > Manx and > > > > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number is > > > > apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 2 08:05:04 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 14:05:04 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012c01d7ffe1$bda65cc0$38f31640$@ntlworld.com> I thought I had checked, but I can double check just to be sure. Thanks for the suggestion, it certainly feels like it could be something like this. > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > Sent: 02 January 2022 13:01 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > Rob, > > I know this is probably a stupid suggestion, but are they terminated > correctly? > > Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > via cctalk > > Sent: 02 January 2022 07:30 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > Can anyone help me to understand why all my RF30 disks report the same > > diagnostic code 0x300B? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 17:46 > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; > > 'General > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > I have tried three different RF30 disks, two of them from one source > > > and > > one > > > from a completely different source, so completely different histories. > > They > > > all give me the same diagnostic error code, 0x300B, which seems to > > > be too much of a coincidence, so I think it may be something in my > > configuration. > > > > > > I am using a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655 with KFQSA). When I power on, the > > > fault light comes on and then goes out after a while. This I believe > > > is normal behaviour. However, as soon as I try to access the disk > > > (e.g. SHOW DEVICES in the console firmware) the fault light come on > > > and when I boot to VMS (from a different disk), VMS can't see the drive. > > > > > > I thought it might be some kind of DSSI ID conflict because I have > > > an > > > RF72 > > in > > > the machine at ID 0. Removing the RF72 does not change the behaviour. > > > Installing an ID=0 plug on the RF30 does not change the behaviour. I > > > set > > the > > > DIP switches on the RF30s to have an ID=1 and still it doesn't work > > > and PARAMS reports UNITNUM=0. I followed this page > > > http://mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html but it > > > didn't > > > work: > > > > > > PARAMS> sho /mscp > > > > > > Parameter Current Default Type Radix > > > --------- ---------------- ---------------- -------- ----- > > > MSCPNVR 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 String Hex RO > > > UNITID 1502401193918703 0000000000000 Quadword Hex RO > > > ALLCLASS 0 0 Byte Dec B > > > MEDIAID 2264601E 2264601E Longword Hex RO U > > > UNITNUM 0 0 Word Dec U > > > FIVEDIME 1 1 Boolean 0/1 B > > > FORCEUNI 1 1 Boolean 0/1 U > > > FORCECID 1 1 Boolean 0/1 RO > > > CNT_TMO 60 60 Word Dec RO > > > > > > PARAMS> set unitnum 1 > > > > > > PARAMS> set forceuni 0 > > > > > > PARAMS> write > > > Failed to acquire unit, cannot WRITE > > > > > > Am I doing something wrong? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 09:45 > > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? > > > > > > > > >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params > > > > PARAMS> status config > > > > > > > > Configuration: > > > > Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller > > > > Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 > > > > Electronics module name is EN94019334 > > > > Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) > > > > Last known unit failure code 300B(X) > > > > In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times > > > > System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It is > > > > > not on > > > > Manx and > > > > > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number is > > > > > apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 09:18:38 2022 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:18:38 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <012c01d7ffe1$bda65cc0$38f31640$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> <012c01d7ffe1$bda65cc0$38f31640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <42c7d01d7ffec$04cce2e0$0e66a8a0$@gmail.com> Rob, If that is not the issue, do you need to try them in the MicroVax 4000 here? Dave (p.s. can SCSI terminators fit in a DSSI bus socket by mistake) > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 02 January 2022 14:05 > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On- > Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > I thought I had checked, but I can double check just to be sure. Thanks for > the suggestion, it certainly feels like it could be something like this. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > > Sent: 02 January 2022 13:01 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; > 'General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > Rob, > > > > I know this is probably a stupid suggestion, but are they terminated > > correctly? > > > > Dave > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > Sent: 02 January 2022 07:30 > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > Can anyone help me to understand why all my RF30 disks report the > > > same diagnostic code 0x300B? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 17:46 > > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' > > > > ; > > > 'General > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > I have tried three different RF30 disks, two of them from one > > > > source and > > > one > > > > from a completely different source, so completely different histories. > > > They > > > > all give me the same diagnostic error code, 0x300B, which seems to > > > > be too much of a coincidence, so I think it may be something in my > > > configuration. > > > > > > > > I am using a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655 with KFQSA). When I power on, > > > > the fault light comes on and then goes out after a while. This I > > > > believe is normal behaviour. However, as soon as I try to access > > > > the disk (e.g. SHOW DEVICES in the console firmware) the fault > > > > light come on and when I boot to VMS (from a different disk), VMS > > > > can't see the > drive. > > > > > > > > I thought it might be some kind of DSSI ID conflict because I have > > > > an > > > > RF72 > > > in > > > > the machine at ID 0. Removing the RF72 does not change the > behaviour. > > > > Installing an ID=0 plug on the RF30 does not change the behaviour. > > > > I set > > > the > > > > DIP switches on the RF30s to have an ID=1 and still it doesn't > > > > work and PARAMS reports UNITNUM=0. I followed this page > > > > http://mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html but it > > > > didn't > > > > work: > > > > > > > > PARAMS> sho /mscp > > > > > > > > Parameter Current Default Type Radix > > > > --------- ---------------- ---------------- -------- ----- > > > > MSCPNVR 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 String Hex RO > > > > UNITID 1502401193918703 0000000000000 Quadword Hex RO > > > > ALLCLASS 0 0 Byte Dec B > > > > MEDIAID 2264601E 2264601E Longword Hex RO U > > > > UNITNUM 0 0 Word Dec U > > > > FIVEDIME 1 1 Boolean 0/1 B > > > > FORCEUNI 1 1 Boolean 0/1 U > > > > FORCECID 1 1 Boolean 0/1 RO > > > > CNT_TMO 60 60 Word Dec RO > > > > > > > > PARAMS> set unitnum 1 > > > > > > > > PARAMS> set forceuni 0 > > > > > > > > PARAMS> write > > > > Failed to acquire unit, cannot WRITE > > > > > > > > Am I doing something wrong? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 09:45 > > > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? > > > > > > > > > > >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params > > > > > PARAMS> status config > > > > > > > > > > Configuration: > > > > > Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller > > > > > Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 > > > > > Electronics module name is EN94019334 > > > > > Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) > > > > > Last known unit failure code 300B(X) > > > > > In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times > > > > > System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > > > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It > > > > > > is not on > > > > > Manx and > > > > > > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number > > > > > > is apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 2 09:51:43 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:51:43 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <42c7d01d7ffec$04cce2e0$0e66a8a0$@gmail.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> <012c01d7ffe1$bda65cc0$38f31640$@ntlworld.com> <42c7d01d7ffec$04cce2e0$0e66a8a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <013a01d7fff0$a431a5b0$ec94f110$@ntlworld.com> I have other DSSI machines to try them in, just a bit less easy to install them in those machines. Going to check the termination now. > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > Sent: 02 January 2022 15:19 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > Rob, > If that is not the issue, do you need to try them in the MicroVax 4000 here? > Dave > (p.s. can SCSI terminators fit in a DSSI bus socket by mistake) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 02 January 2022 14:05 > > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On- > > Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > I thought I had checked, but I can double check just to be sure. > > Thanks > for > > the suggestion, it certainly feels like it could be something like this. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > > > Sent: 02 January 2022 13:01 > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; > > 'General > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > Rob, > > > > > > I know this is probably a stupid suggestion, but are they terminated > > > correctly? > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > Sent: 02 January 2022 07:30 > > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > Can anyone help me to understand why all my RF30 disks report the > > > > same diagnostic code 0x300B? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 17:46 > > > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' > > > > > ; > > > > 'General > > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > I have tried three different RF30 disks, two of them from one > > > > > source and > > > > one > > > > > from a completely different source, so completely different > histories. > > > > They > > > > > all give me the same diagnostic error code, 0x300B, which seems > > > > > to be too much of a coincidence, so I think it may be something > > > > > in my > > > > configuration. > > > > > > > > > > I am using a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655 with KFQSA). When I power on, > > > > > the fault light comes on and then goes out after a while. This I > > > > > believe is normal behaviour. However, as soon as I try to access > > > > > the disk (e.g. SHOW DEVICES in the console firmware) the fault > > > > > light come on and when I boot to VMS (from a different disk), > > > > > VMS can't see the > > drive. > > > > > > > > > > I thought it might be some kind of DSSI ID conflict because I > > > > > have an > > > > > RF72 > > > > in > > > > > the machine at ID 0. Removing the RF72 does not change the > > behaviour. > > > > > Installing an ID=0 plug on the RF30 does not change the behaviour. > > > > > I set > > > > the > > > > > DIP switches on the RF30s to have an ID=1 and still it doesn't > > > > > work and PARAMS reports UNITNUM=0. I followed this page > > > > > http://mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html but it > > > > > didn't > > > > > work: > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> sho /mscp > > > > > > > > > > Parameter Current Default Type Radix > > > > > --------- ---------------- ---------------- -------- ----- > > > > > MSCPNVR 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 String Hex RO > > > > > UNITID 1502401193918703 0000000000000 Quadword Hex RO > > > > > ALLCLASS 0 0 Byte Dec B > > > > > MEDIAID 2264601E 2264601E Longword Hex RO > U > > > > > UNITNUM 0 0 Word Dec U > > > > > FIVEDIME 1 1 Boolean 0/1 B > > > > > FORCEUNI 1 1 Boolean 0/1 U > > > > > FORCECID 1 1 Boolean 0/1 RO > > > > > CNT_TMO 60 60 Word Dec RO > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> set unitnum 1 > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> set forceuni 0 > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> write > > > > > Failed to acquire unit, cannot WRITE > > > > > > > > > > Am I doing something wrong? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 09:45 > > > > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params > > > > > > PARAMS> status config > > > > > > > > > > > > Configuration: > > > > > > Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller > > > > > > Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 > > > > > > Electronics module name is EN94019334 > > > > > > Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) > > > > > > Last known unit failure code 300B(X) > > > > > > In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times > > > > > > System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of > > > > > > > Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > > > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > > > > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. > > > > > > > It is not on > > > > > > Manx and > > > > > > > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part > > > > > > > number is apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 2 10:04:36 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 16:04:36 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> <012c01d7ffe1$bda65cc0$38f31640$@ntlworld.com> <42c7d01d7ffec$04cce2e0$0e66a8a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014f01d7fff2$71192200$534b6600$@ntlworld.com> Hmm... There was already a terminator installed. I tried to remove it in case there was some kind of double termination, but that didn't seem to resolve it. The terminator is good because the machine works with other disks. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 02 January 2022 15:52 > To: 'dave.g4ugm at gmail.com' ; > 'rob at jarratt.me.uk' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > I have other DSSI machines to try them in, just a bit less easy to install them > in those machines. Going to check the termination now. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > > Sent: 02 January 2022 15:19 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > Rob, > > If that is not the issue, do you need to try them in the MicroVax 4000 here? > > Dave > > (p.s. can SCSI terminators fit in a DSSI bus socket by mistake) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 02 January 2022 14:05 > > > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: > > > On- Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > I thought I had checked, but I can double check just to be sure. > > > Thanks > > for > > > the suggestion, it certainly feels like it could be something like this. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > > > > Sent: 02 January 2022 13:01 > > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' > > > > ; > > > 'General > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > Rob, > > > > > > > > I know this is probably a stupid suggestion, but are they > > > > terminated correctly? > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob > > > > > Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > Sent: 02 January 2022 07:30 > > > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone help me to understand why all my RF30 disks report > > > > > the same diagnostic code 0x300B? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 17:46 > > > > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' > > > > > > ; > > > > > 'General > > > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > > > I have tried three different RF30 disks, two of them from one > > > > > > source and > > > > > one > > > > > > from a completely different source, so completely different > > histories. > > > > > They > > > > > > all give me the same diagnostic error code, 0x300B, which > > > > > > seems to be too much of a coincidence, so I think it may be > > > > > > something in my > > > > > configuration. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am using a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655 with KFQSA). When I power > > > > > > on, the fault light comes on and then goes out after a while. > > > > > > This I believe is normal behaviour. However, as soon as I try > > > > > > to access the disk (e.g. SHOW DEVICES in the console firmware) > > > > > > the fault light come on and when I boot to VMS (from a > > > > > > different disk), VMS can't see the > > > drive. > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought it might be some kind of DSSI ID conflict because I > > > > > > have an > > > > > > RF72 > > > > > in > > > > > > the machine at ID 0. Removing the RF72 does not change the > > > behaviour. > > > > > > Installing an ID=0 plug on the RF30 does not change the behaviour. > > > > > > I set > > > > > the > > > > > > DIP switches on the RF30s to have an ID=1 and still it doesn't > > > > > > work and PARAMS reports UNITNUM=0. I followed this page > > > > > > http://mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html but it > > > > > > didn't > > > > > > work: > > > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> sho /mscp > > > > > > > > > > > > Parameter Current Default Type Radix > > > > > > --------- ---------------- ---------------- -------- ----- > > > > > > MSCPNVR 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 > > > > > > 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 String Hex RO > > > > > > UNITID 1502401193918703 0000000000000 Quadword Hex RO > > > > > > ALLCLASS 0 0 Byte Dec B > > > > > > MEDIAID 2264601E 2264601E Longword Hex RO > > U > > > > > > UNITNUM 0 0 Word Dec U > > > > > > FIVEDIME 1 1 Boolean 0/1 B > > > > > > FORCEUNI 1 1 Boolean 0/1 U > > > > > > FORCECID 1 1 Boolean 0/1 RO > > > > > > CNT_TMO 60 60 Word Dec RO > > > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> set unitnum 1 > > > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> set forceuni 0 > > > > > > > > > > > > PARAMS> write > > > > > > Failed to acquire unit, cannot WRITE > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I doing something wrong? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of > > > > > > > Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > > > Sent: 23 December 2021 09:45 > > > > > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service > > > > > > > Guide > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params > > > > > > > PARAMS> status config > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Configuration: > > > > > > > Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller > > > > > > > Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 > > > > > > > Electronics module name is EN94019334 > > > > > > > Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) > > > > > > > Last known unit failure code 300B(X) > > > > > > > In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times > > > > > > > System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of > > > > > > > > Rob Jarratt via cctalk > > > > > > > > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > > > > > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. > > > > > > > > It is not on > > > > > > > Manx and > > > > > > > > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part > > > > > > > > number is apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 10:24:51 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 11:24:51 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R In-Reply-To: References: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <23d40866-0541-3826-96c6-c76d1ef7d6bc@alembic.crystel.com> Hm. Ok, so what was it for then? Any specific pdp11, or just the serial plug for a weird Unibus sync modem cardset? I'm thinking of cutting it down and using it as a 20ma current loop plug for one of my pdp8/L's. If anyone wants to trade it for a real DEC 8/I or 8/L card or if this thing has some sort of value let me know. C On 1/1/2022 8:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 7:03 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Found here: >> >> http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/43.jpg > > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=249 > > Bill > >> >> From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 10:35:16 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 11:35:16 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R In-Reply-To: <23d40866-0541-3826-96c6-c76d1ef7d6bc@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> <23d40866-0541-3826-96c6-c76d1ef7d6bc@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0a431116-fbd8-552e-430a-736c60d579a4@gmail.com> The original serial interface in the PDP-11 (later 11/20) was four cards in a specially-wired backplane slot.? There was an M782(1?) interrupt controller, a data path module whose number I forget, and the interface. That card brought out the cable to the outside world. IOW they were combining existing modules to get the serial function, and adding the interface card to connect to the outside world. The later DL11 of course did it all on one module which fitted into an SPC slot and had a 40-pin Berg connector on the side facing the Unibus slots for the cable take-off. It's been along time since I took the factory training course on the PDP11/20, and I believe the ones I worked on in the lab at Maynard that already had a DL11 in them. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-02 11:24, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hm. Ok, so what was it for then? Any specific pdp11, or just the > serial plug for a weird Unibus sync modem cardset? > > I'm thinking of cutting it down and using it as a 20ma current loop > plug for one of my pdp8/L's. If anyone wants to trade it for a real > DEC 8/I or 8/L card or if this thing has some sort of value let me know. > > C > > > On 1/1/2022 8:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 7:03 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Found here: >>> >>> http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/43.jpg >> >> >> https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=249 >> >> Bill >> >>> >>> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 2 11:44:14 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 12:44:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is a BC01-R Message-ID: <20220102174414.5F2E918C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > a M857 board with a RS232 cable on it and BC01R-25 on it. Anyone know what an M857 is? I guess it might be a DF11 async answer mode? I found this: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102731577 but I think the number there is wrong; I'm not sure exactly which KL10 board is an 'MBOX Control 3' - it might be the M9537. > From:Ethan Dicks > Sounds like it was a generic cable that probably worked with several > devices. Yeah, the BC01-R was used with an M957/M970 header card (not sure what the difference between them is) in the DF11: https://gunkies.org/wiki/DF11_Communications_Line_Adapter Not sure where else. Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 12:07:06 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 10:07:06 -0800 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <014f01d7fff2$71192200$534b6600$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> <012c01d7ffe1$bda65cc0$38f31640$@ntlworld.com> <42c7d01d7ffec$04cce2e0$0e66a8a0$@gmail.com> <014f01d7fff2$71192200$534b6600$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 9:22 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Hmm... There was already a terminator installed. I tried to remove it in > case there was some kind of double termination, but that didn't seem to > resolve it. The terminator is good because the machine works with other > disks. If other disks work when they are swapped in without making any other changes, it is probably not a termination issue. However, you still might want to double check that the DSSI bus is properly terminated at both ends. If the M7769 KFQSA is attached to a bulkhead connector panel, there are two versions, one with a single DSSI connector, and one with two DSSI connectors. If the bulkhead connector panel has a single DSSI connector, there should be SIP terminators installed on the M7769 KFQSA next to the DSSI connector on the M7769 KFQSA as one end of the DSSI bus. If the bulkhead connector panel has two DSSI connectors, the SIP terminators should be removed on the M7769 KFQSA next to the DSSI connector on the M7769 KFQSA, and there should be an external terminator on one of the two DSSI connectors on the bulkhead connector panel. If there is no bulkhead connector panel connected directly to the M7769 KFQSA, and instead it is connected to an internal DSSI bus cable inside the chassis, and the M7769 KFQSA is at the end of the internal DSSI bus cable, there should be SIP terminators installed on the M7769 KFQSA next to the DSSI connector on the M7769 KFQSA as one end of the DSSI bus. I would expect the other end of the internal DSSI bus cable to connect to a bulkhead connector panel, which should have an external terminator attached as the other end of the DSSI bus. From lists at glitchwrks.com Sun Jan 2 13:16:51 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2022 19:16:51 +0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > I'd really like 3? at home for a number of different things. In North America? Good luck! Part of what got me to buy a smallish industrial building was needing three phase. It's usually cheaper/easier to either use a VFD if it's for motor equipment, or a rotary converter, than trying to get the power company to give you three phase. Even if it's literally on the pole behind your house, they want $LOL to make the connection. > It depends on the quality of the socket. My understanding is that a > NEMA 5-15 is rated to sustain 15A at 120V indefinitely. Then there are > NEMA 5-20s which are rated for 20A. Yes, these "melted the socket, never tripped the breaker" failures are a result of crap receptacles. On basically all good brands of receptacles, the 15A and 20A have the same internal parts, anyway. It's my opinion that anything in a shop area, or really even the kitchen, ought to be spec-grade receptacles. They're not that expensive when you consider they'll last a lifetime. We always require Hubble spec-grade, and that's what I've installed at the house, too. > So ... over 10A continuous seems > quite possible if not expected with some installations. Indeed, you can have a continuous load up to 12A with no special NEC rules on a regular old branch circuit. Thanks, Jonathan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 2 13:48:21 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 14:48:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 780 on eBay Message-ID: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jonathan Chapman > Last one that went auction-style on eBay went for $1,178.00 When was that? Do you have any details of the machine's config? That's a pretty good deal for a 780 (IMO). Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 2 14:37:18 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 12:37:18 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> On 1/2/22 11:16 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> I'd really like 3? at home for a number of different things. > > In North America? Good luck! Part of what got me to buy a smallish industrial building was needing three phase. It's usually cheaper/easier to either use a VFD if it's for motor equipment, or a rotary converter, than trying to get the power company to give you three phase. Even if it's literally on the pole behind your house, they want $LOL to make the connection. Availability depends on your utility and location. It's not uncommon for a farm to have 3-phase service--it's needed for things like hay dryers. For example, here's my rural electric co-op's rate sheet for 3-phase service: https://laneelectric.com/wp-content/uploads/GS-3-General-Service-Three-Phase-Eff-1-1-20.pdf By way of comparison, here's their single-phase general-service rate sheet: https://laneelectric.com/wp-content/uploads/GS-1-General-Service-Single-Phase-Eff-1-1-20.pdf The real sting is for 3-phase electric vehicle charging stations: https://laneelectric.com/wp-content/uploads/EV-1-Electric-Vehicle-Charging-Station-Eff-1-1-20.pdf In my rural location, 3-phase 11KV buried is available at a disconnect box at the street--single phase is buried along the driveway and terminates at a transformer on a pad in my front yard. Buried 240/120V single-phase 200A service then goes to the house. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 2 15:03:33 2022 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 16:03:33 -0500 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2022-01-02 2:48 p.m., Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jonathan Chapman > > > Last one that went auction-style on eBay went for $1,178.00 > > When was that? > > Do you have any details of the machine's config? > > That's a pretty good deal for a 780 (IMO). Someone I know won a '785, Feb 10, 2018, but it went for $1,000 (they bid $1,178.50). https://i.imgur.com/wRV28mj.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Nh60Wwh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/OjQWk55.jpg > > Noel > From lists at glitchwrks.com Sun Jan 2 15:05:13 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2022 21:05:13 +0000 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: That's the one! Clearly I forgot some of the details. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, January 2nd, 2022 at 16:03, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-01-02 2:48 p.m., Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > > From: Jonathan Chapman > > > > > Last one that went auction-style on eBay went for $1,178.00 > > > > > > When was that? > > > > Do you have any details of the machine's config? > > > > That's a pretty good deal for a 780 (IMO). > > Someone I know won a '785, Feb 10, 2018, but it went for $1,000 (they > > bid $1,178.50). > > https://i.imgur.com/wRV28mj.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/Nh60Wwh.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/OjQWk55.jpg > > > Noel From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 2 15:12:29 2022 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 16:12:29 -0500 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <42cb58b4-36aa-6935-960a-c8a439a360bf@e-bbes.com> On 2022-01-02 16:03, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-01-02 2:48 p.m., Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> ???? > From: Jonathan Chapman >> >> ???? > Last one that went auction-style on eBay went for $1,178.00 >> >> When was that? >> >> Do you have any details of the machine's config? >> >> That's a pretty good deal for a 780 (IMO). > > Someone I know won a '785, Feb 10, 2018, but it went for $1,000 (they > bid $1,178.50). I didn't bid on it, it was too far, now I'm on the east coast, and there is one in Arizona :( From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 2 15:42:48 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 14:42:48 -0700 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9e090d1e-ff1d-c919-8519-41303540900f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/2/22 2:03 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > https://i.imgur.com/OjQWk55.jpg From that last picture, it looks like one of the plugs is five pronged, and looks very similar to the 120/208V 30A 3? plug in one of the pictures about the current 780 auction. I can't tell if the other plug is a three or four pronged plug. It It almost looks like a 3 pronged plug which I assume is a NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 which would imply 120V 15A or 20A 1?. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 2 15:46:07 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 14:46:07 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <35171ca1-1693-271c-43d6-dbae9232c88c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/2/22 12:16 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > In North America? Good luck! Part of what got me to buy a > smallish industrial building was needing three phase. It's usually > cheaper/easier to either use a VFD if it's for motor equipment, or a > rotary converter, than trying to get the power company to give you > three phase. Even if it's literally on the pole behind your house, > they want $LOL to make the connection. So I've gathered. Commercial, industrial, and rural farm tend to be the places where 3? is a viable option. Beyond that, ya rotary converter. The more that I learn about VFDs, the less that I like them. Especially for anything electronic. > Yes, these "melted the socket, never tripped the breaker" failures > are a result of crap receptacles. On basically all good brands of > receptacles, the 15A and 20A have the same internal parts, anyway. It's > my opinion that anything in a shop area, or really even the kitchen, > ought to be spec-grade receptacles. They're not that expensive when you > consider they'll last a lifetime. We always require Hubble spec-grade, > and that's what I've installed at the house, too. I'd much rather spend the additional money and have what you are referring to as Hubble spec-grade outlets throughout the house. I've gotten to the point that I don't want to put up with / tolerate sub-par things that are going to cause me to have more work in the future. > Indeed, you can have a continuous load up to 12A with no special NEC > rules on a regular old branch circuit. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 2 16:24:53 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 22:24:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <42cb58b4-36aa-6935-960a-c8a439a360bf@e-bbes.com> References: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <42cb58b4-36aa-6935-960a-c8a439a360bf@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1120877260.607848.1641162293448@mail.yahoo.com> Ah yes! And I am in Arizona too...... Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 2:12 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: On 2022-01-02 16:03, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-01-02 2:48 p.m., Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> ???? > From: Jonathan Chapman >> >> ???? > Last one that went auction-style on eBay went for $1,178.00 >> >> When was that? >> >> Do you have any details of the machine's config? >> >> That's a pretty good deal for a 780 (IMO). > > Someone I know won a '785, Feb 10, 2018, but it went for $1,000 (they > bid $1,178.50). I didn't bid on it, it was too far, now I'm on the east coast, and there is one in Arizona :( From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 16:46:51 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 17:46:51 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R In-Reply-To: <20220102174414.5F2E918C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220102174414.5F2E918C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: No, it's a single width full height M series board from the early 1970's. As mentioned it was probably from a DP11 or some other RS232 sync serial device. C On 1/2/2022 12:44 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Chris Zach > > > a M857 board with a RS232 cable on it and BC01R-25 on it. > > Anyone know what an M857 is? I guess it might be a DF11 async answer mode? I > found this: > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102731577 > > but I think the number there is wrong; I'm not sure exactly which KL10 board > is an 'MBOX Control 3' - it might be the M9537. > > > > From:Ethan Dicks > > > Sounds like it was a generic cable that probably worked with several > > devices. > > Yeah, the BC01-R was used with an M957/M970 header card (not sure what the > difference between them is) in the DF11: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/DF11_Communications_Line_Adapter > > Not sure where else. > > Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jan 2 17:21:40 2022 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:21:40 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> Message-ID: <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> The poles supplying my rural property just have one phase of 12kV on them, so even if SCE was willing to provide 3? service to me, I bet it would be *expensive* to get the whole line upgraded to 3? service all the way up to the last pole with all three phases present. I think that's probably within a mile or so, but that's still a bunch of poles to be upgraded. I use a rotary phase converter to feed my milling machine and lathe. If all three phases were on the pole already, I probably would have asked about getting 3? service when I built on my property. But with just one phase on the poles, I didn't bother asking. They did just replace those overhead wires and some poles for fire prevention, and in the process they put in a whole great big pole-mounted switch that can be flipped from ground level just for my service disconnect, and another one for a neighbor's disconnect. It looks like they installed a regular 3? disconnect switch, but only two of the wires are present and one switch pole is not connected. My service transitions from overhead to buried at that pole, and is buried for the last 100' or so to my ground-mounted transformer. Two of the poles they replaced were in the easement just on the other side of my property line. The contractors were happy with my cooperation in giving them access to my property so they could put trucks on both sides of the fence line. I also handed out 15 60mm ammo cans from my stash, since I like contractors on my property to be happy. So, they conveniently forgot to take the two old 45' poles they replaced with them at the end of the day, and I won't have to buy a new ham radio tower after all. ;) I am seriously lusting after that VAX-11/780 system on eBay, but I just don't have the available indoor space for it, or a big enough pile of cash to buy it and then spend enough to give it a good home. I'm glad that it's not in southern California, because if it was within an hour or two of driving I don't think I'd be able to resist the temptation. I do have my nice little 11/730 already. I'm eying the UNIBUS expansion bus from that seller to add to my 730, but I think should leave it available for the buyer of that 780. -- Mark J. Blair Blog: https://www.nf6x.net Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR Twitter: @nf6x From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jan 2 17:25:18 2022 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:25:18 -0800 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220102194821.5F04A18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 2, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2022-01-02 2:48 p.m., Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Jonathan Chapman >> > Last one that went auction-style on eBay went for $1,178.00 >> When was that? >> Do you have any details of the machine's config? >> That's a pretty good deal for a 780 (IMO). > > Someone I know won a '785, Feb 10, 2018, but it went for $1,000 (they bid $1,178.50). HAHAHA! I love their bid amount. I can remember that I paid $1,575.42 (+tax etc.) for my T368C transmitter, because I was working in the GPS industry at the time, and I bid the GPS L1 frequency in MHz. The second bidder just missed outbidding me, and I got it for my maximum bid. -- Mark J. Blair Blog: https://www.nf6x.net Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR Twitter: @nf6x From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jan 2 17:28:04 2022 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:28:04 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> Message-ID: In the unlikely event that I win the lottery before that 11/780 batch sells, I'm going to buy it, buy a box truck, go pick it up, and then leave the box truck parked outside while I build a new building to put it all in. :D -- Mark J. Blair Blog: https://www.nf6x.net Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR Twitter: @nf6x From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 18:20:30 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 19:20:30 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> On 1/2/2022 6:21 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > I am seriously lusting after that VAX-11/780 system on eBay I keep thinking about it, but no. The 780 was neat from a historical perspective, and the 785 at UMBC (UMBC5) ran Ultrix (and was on the ARPANET, not the crappy Bitnet the 8600's were on) but the 780 was really slow. I have a Microvax II here that would equal it CPU speed-wise, and the running of the main memory on the SBI was cool for the 782 option but was pretty slow. Now a Vax 8600 or 8650.... That would be interesting. Partially due to the Jupiter angle, partially because it was the fastest MASSBUS system with true pdp11 compatibility. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 18:24:27 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 19:24:27 -0500 Subject: What is a BC01-R In-Reply-To: <0a431116-fbd8-552e-430a-736c60d579a4@gmail.com> References: <9e1e9faa-4b7b-51eb-3261-ab2edbe8f4ec@alembic.crystel.com> <23d40866-0541-3826-96c6-c76d1ef7d6bc@alembic.crystel.com> <0a431116-fbd8-552e-430a-736c60d579a4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh ok, you answered it. It's from an 11/20. Weird since I never had one, Alan Frisbee, didn't you have an 11/20 next to your CR11 reader when I was over at your place 30 years ago? Still the question: Anyone need it and willing to trade it for an 8/L serial cable and card? On 1/2/2022 11:35 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > The original serial interface in the PDP-11 (later 11/20) was four cards > in a specially-wired backplane slot.? There was an M782(1?) interrupt > controller, a data path module whose number I forget, and the interface. > That card brought out the cable to the outside world. IOW they were > combining existing modules to get the serial function, and adding the > interface card to connect to the outside world. > > The later DL11 of course did it all on one module which fitted into an > SPC slot and had a 40-pin Berg connector on the side facing the Unibus > slots for the cable take-off. > > It's been along time since I took the factory training course on the > PDP11/20, and I believe the ones I worked on in the lab at Maynard that > already had a DL11 in them. > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:? TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2022-01-02 11:24, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Hm. Ok, so what was it for then? Any specific pdp11, or just the >> serial plug for a weird Unibus sync modem cardset? >> >> I'm thinking of cutting it down and using it as a 20ma current loop >> plug for one of my pdp8/L's. If anyone wants to trade it for a real >> DEC 8/I or 8/L card or if this thing has some sort of value let me know. >> >> C >> >> >> On 1/1/2022 8:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 7:03 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Found here: >>>> >>>> http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/43.jpg >>> >>> >>> https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=249 >>> >>> Bill >>> >>>> >>>> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 2 18:28:11 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 19:28:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is a BC01-R Message-ID: <20220103002811.1B77B18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach >> Anyone know what an M857 is? I guess it might be a DF11 async answer >> mode? > No, it's a single width full height M series board from the early > 1970's. Argh, digit swappping on my part. The _M587_ is in the DN87 FMPS: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/periph/MP00068_DN87_Universal_Comm_System_Front_End_Jan76.pdf (pg. 98); it's a dual-width card, an "Async answer modem" (the DF11-BB). The BC01-R cable is in there (pg. 89), but I don't see the M857. (Web searches don't turn it up either.) Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jan 2 19:04:28 2022 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 17:04:28 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <35D0A96E-3EF6-444E-97C1-897005C12317@nf6x.net> > On Jan 2, 2022, at 4:20 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/2/2022 6:21 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> I am seriously lusting after that VAX-11/780 system on eBay > I keep thinking about it, but no. The 780 was neat from a historical perspective, and the 785 at UMBC (UMBC5) ran Ultrix (and was on the ARPANET, not the crappy Bitnet the 8600's were on) but the 780 was really slow. I have a Microvax II here that would equal it CPU speed-wise, and the running of the main memory on the SBI was cool for the 782 option but was pretty slow. The VAX-11/780 may be very slow, but it is still still quite a bit faster than my 11/730. That being said, the 11/730 captures the look and feel of that era of VAX in a much smaller volume and with a lot lower energy cost. > Now a Vax 8600 or 8650.... That would be interesting. Partially due to the Jupiter angle, partially because it was the fastest MASSBUS system with true pdp11 compatibility. Oh, heck yeah! I'd love to have an 8600 or 8650, and I would see them as the logical conclusion of the VAX-11/7xx line despite the model number change. -- Mark J. Blair Blog: https://www.nf6x.net Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR Twitter: @nf6x From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 2 19:11:35 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 18:11:35 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/22 5:20 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I keep thinking about it, but no. The 780 was neat from a historical > perspective, and the 785 at UMBC (UMBC5) ran Ultrix (and was on the > ARPANET, not the crappy Bitnet the 8600's were on) Is that Bitnet as in the Because it was there network that many IBM mainframes were on? > but the 780 was really slow. I have a Microvax II here that would > equal it CPU speed-wise, and the running of the main memory on the > SBI was cool for the 782 option but was pretty slow. Can I ask for a rough translation in to comparative VAX Units of Performance (VUPs)? I /think/ that the VAX 11/780 was 1 VUP. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jan 2 19:18:24 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 17:18:24 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jan 2, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 1/2/22 5:20 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I keep thinking about it, but no. The 780 was neat from a historical perspective, and the 785 at UMBC (UMBC5) ran Ultrix (and was on the ARPANET, not the crappy Bitnet the 8600's were on) > Is that Bitnet as in the Because it was there network that many IBM mainframes were on? > >> but the 780 was really slow. I have a Microvax II here that would equal it CPU speed-wise, and the running of the main memory on the SBI was cool for the 782 option but was pretty slow. > > Can I ask for a rough translation in to comparative VAX Units of Performance (VUPs)? I /think/ that the VAX 11/780 was 1 VUP. VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP Zane From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 19:20:11 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 20:20:11 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've always felt that in terms of performance the proper measure would have been VUPS/kW :-) That way my little MicroVAX 2 would be able to hold its head high! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-02 20:18, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Jan 2, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?On 1/2/22 5:20 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> I keep thinking about it, but no. The 780 was neat from a historical perspective, and the 785 at UMBC (UMBC5) ran Ultrix (and was on the ARPANET, not the crappy Bitnet the 8600's were on) >> Is that Bitnet as in the Because it was there network that many IBM mainframes were on? >> >>> but the 780 was really slow. I have a Microvax II here that would equal it CPU speed-wise, and the running of the main memory on the SBI was cool for the 782 option but was pretty slow. >> Can I ask for a rough translation in to comparative VAX Units of Performance (VUPs)? I /think/ that the VAX 11/780 was 1 VUP. > > VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP > VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP > MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP > MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP > > Zane > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jan 2 19:28:15 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 17:28:15 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> On Jan 2, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > ?I've always felt that in terms of performance the proper measure would have been VUPS/kW :-) > > That way my little MicroVAX 2 would be able to hold its head high! On that note a Raspberry Pi 2b running SIMH/VAX is about 1.6 VUPS. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 2 19:59:47 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 18:59:47 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 2022-01-02 6:28 p.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Jan 2, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I've always felt that in terms of performance the proper measure would have been VUPS/kW :-) >> >> That way my little MicroVAX 2 would be able to hold its head high! > > On that note a Raspberry Pi 2b running SIMH/VAX is about 1.6 VUPS. > > Zane > But can the Pi handle a gazillion students all time sharing at once @ 2400? How long was the VAX timesharing era as I suspect networked PC's come out soon after that. Ben. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 2 20:10:39 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 19:10:39 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/2/22 6:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP > VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP > MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP > MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP Thank you Zane. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 2 20:14:06 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 19:14:06 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/2/22 6:59 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > But can the Pi handle a gazillion students all time sharing at once > @ 2400? I think that will depend on how you connect the serial terminals. I know that it's possible to establish network connectivity to serial terminal servers. I don't know how many of those terminal servers can be connected to SimH. It may be better to use LAT between terminal servers and VMS running in the emulated VAX. > How long was the VAX timesharing era as I suspect networked PC's come > out soon after that. Good question. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 20:19:14 2022 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 19:19:14 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20220101191703.223D92CFC70@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <79a45ffe-6cec-e95f-384a-a2c7ac43a6fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1B0048B2-ED19-49E8-B85D-E5E7FD42DD4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 12:33 Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Largely true, but some disk drives (RP06? RP04?) use 3-phase spindle > motors. > The RP06 has 3-phase power input (and output, phase-rotated, for a second drive), but uses a single phase spindle motor. The US version runs the spindle between two phases, nominally 208V, but the motor is rated for operation on a range that spans 208V and 240V. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 20:33:17 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2022 21:33:17 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <280916FE-002B-4785-A3FD-8BD86B52DACB@alembic.crystel.com> Microvax 2 is .9 vup. C On January 2, 2022 9:10:39 PM EST, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >On 1/2/22 6:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP >> VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP >> MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP >> MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP > >Thank you Zane. > > > >-- >Grant. . . . >unix || die -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 2 20:36:05 2022 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 21:36:05 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <280916FE-002B-4785-A3FD-8BD86B52DACB@alembic.crystel.com> References: <280916FE-002B-4785-A3FD-8BD86B52DACB@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 2022-01-02 9:33 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Microvax 2 is .9 vup. > Oops, Zane vupped up. > C > > On January 2, 2022 9:10:39 PM EST, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/2/22 6:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP >>> VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP >>> MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP >>> MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP >> >> Thank you Zane. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 22:31:39 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 23:31:39 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <35D0A96E-3EF6-444E-97C1-897005C12317@nf6x.net> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> <35D0A96E-3EF6-444E-97C1-897005C12317@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <00c2283d-6a42-d0a9-f70a-f8691923d729@alembic.crystel.com> > The VAX-11/780 may be very slow, but it is still still quite a bit faster than my 11/730. That being said, the 11/730 captures the look and feel of that era of VAX in a much smaller volume and with a lot lower energy cost. Oh yes, the 730 is probably the neatest little "pocket Vax". Especially if you have the R80 drive as well as the RL02. The R80 did not use the Unibus, correct? From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jan 2 22:35:39 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 20:35:39 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> The worst part is I know it?s 0.9 VUPS. Zane > On Jan 2, 2022, at 6:36 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 2022-01-02 9:33 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Microvax 2 is .9 vup. > > Oops, Zane vupped up. > >> C >>> On January 2, 2022 9:10:39 PM EST, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> On 1/2/22 6:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP >>>> VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP >>>> MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP >>>> MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP >>> >>> Thank you Zane. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Grant. . . . >>> unix || die > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 23:10:19 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 00:10:19 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Maybe you were thinking the 11/73? I think the 83 was quicker, and the 93/94 hit the 1 VUP speed... C On 1/2/2022 11:35 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > The worst part is I know it?s 0.9 VUPS. > > Zane > > > >> On Jan 2, 2022, at 6:36 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?On 2022-01-02 9:33 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Microvax 2 is .9 vup. >> >> Oops, Zane vupped up. >> >>> C >>>> On January 2, 2022 9:10:39 PM EST, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 1/2/22 6:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>>> VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP >>>>> VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP >>>>> MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP >>>>> MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP >>>> >>>> Thank you Zane. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Grant. . . . >>>> unix || die >> > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 23:10:31 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 00:10:31 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <00c2283d-6a42-d0a9-f70a-f8691923d729@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> <35D0A96E-3EF6-444E-97C1-897005C12317@nf6x.net> <00c2283d-6a42-d0a9-f70a-f8691923d729@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 11:31 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Oh yes, the 730 is probably the neatest little "pocket Vax". Especially > if you have the R80 drive as well as the RL02. The R80 did not use the > Unibus, correct? Correct. The R80 connects to the RB730 controller which has its own slot at the top of the backplane. My first UNIX install was on an 11/730. I ran a Usenet node (k-panda) for a couple of years on it. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 2 23:11:43 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 00:11:43 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Yup. The 8600's (UMBC1 and 2) were connected to Bitnet, and I was a little Bitnaught until I found AI. It might have connected through the Gandalf network or something else, I'd have to check old printouts. > Can I ask for a rough translation in to comparative VAX Units of > Performance (VUPs)?? I /think/ that the VAX 11/780 was 1 VUP. Kind of like MIPS, but I think they were going for throughput. The 780 may have had the same CPU speed as the Microvax II, but anytime you hit disk on the MV you were slugging down to the Q-Bus speed, going through a 4mb memory map window, and the RQDX3 wasn't either fast or very good IMO. The 780 would plow through the MASSBUS channel interfaces directly attached to memory (well, on a 780 everything went SBI) and RM03/RM80/RP07 drives were way faster than RD54's. And you could go to CI bus to talk to an HSC50 which could do more interesting stuff with RA81's and 82's. From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 2 23:18:37 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2022 22:18:37 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I had accounts on a MicroVAX 2 and a VAX 11/750. The microvax was faster for most compute jobs, but the 750 with 1/4 the memory handled more users mostly in text editors with the occasional compile or nroff/troff jobs. IIRC, the 750 had faster disks... Warner On Sun, Jan 2, 2022, 9:35 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > The worst part is I know it?s 0.9 VUPS. > > Zane > > > > > On Jan 2, 2022, at 6:36 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ?On 2022-01-02 9:33 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Microvax 2 is .9 vup. > > > > Oops, Zane vupped up. > > > >> C > >>> On January 2, 2022 9:10:39 PM EST, Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> On 1/2/22 6:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >>>> VAX-11/780 = 1 VUP > >>>> VAX-11/782 = 1.8 VUP > >>>> MicroVAX 1 = 0.3 VUP > >>>> MicroVAX 2 = 0.7 VUP > >>> > >>> Thank you Zane. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Grant. . . . > >>> unix || die > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 04:44:44 2022 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:44:44 -0000 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <015401d8008e$ec0a1770$c41e4650$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of ben via cctalk > Sent: 03 January 2022 02:00 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 780 on eBay > > On 2022-01-02 6:28 p.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On Jan 2, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> ?I've always felt that in terms of performance the proper measure > >> would have been VUPS/kW :-) > >> > >> That way my little MicroVAX 2 would be able to hold its head high! > > > > On that note a Raspberry Pi 2b running SIMH/VAX is about 1.6 VUPS. > > > > Zane > > > But can the Pi handle a gazillion students all time sharing at once @ 2400? > How long was the VAX timesharing era as I suspect networked PC's come out > soon after that. > Ben. > Ben, Well if I remember properly the VAX couldn't at the time. I arranged for some folks from the place I worked to go on a VMS course at Liverpool University. They came back cursing the VAX and VMS and the sluggish terminal response times and the dreaded "type behind". With a few students on the VAX was great but get a decent load on and it crawled. The trouble was that VMS was usually used with the VAX handling character editing, so the scenario went something like this.... The user types an "a"... The line driver says "what on earth do I do with this "a"? I know I'll send it to the user.... .. oh dear the users code is paged out... ... oh dear there are no free pages so I have to page out another user.... .. and page in the users..... .. and send it the "a" .... .. the user code says "oh and "a" has arrived, what do I do , I know I will echo it to the terminal and go to sleep.... .. in the mean time some one on the next terminal has typed a "B".... The staff came back and said "how do we get a proper mainframe; we need an IBM with VM" where the editing is handled in the screen controller..... ... so we asked for a large amount of disk storage, allocated a small room and they got an IBM 4381 as at the time the VAX didn't have disks as big as the 3380-3 ..... Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 3 05:23:58 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:23:58 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> <011401d7ffaa$83dc6020$8b952060$@ntlworld.com> <42b7301d7ffd8$cb992870$62cb7950$@gmail.com> <012c01d7ffe1$bda65cc0$38f31640$@ntlworld.com> <42c7d01d7ffec$04cce2e0$0e66a8a0$@gmail.com> <014f01d7fff2$71192200$534b6600$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <020501d80094$66da1e00$348e5a00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Glen Slick via > cctalk > Sent: 02 January 2022 18:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 9:22 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hmm... There was already a terminator installed. I tried to remove it > > in case there was some kind of double termination, but that didn't > > seem to resolve it. The terminator is good because the machine works > > with other disks. > > If other disks work when they are swapped in without making any other > changes, it is probably not a termination issue. Yes, other disks work and I don't think it can be a termination problem. However, I did check your points below and everything does seem to be correct, please see responses below. The problem persists though. > > However, you still might want to double check that the DSSI bus is properly > terminated at both ends. If the M7769 KFQSA is attached to a bulkhead > connector panel, there are two versions, one with a single DSSI connector, > and one with two DSSI connectors. My KFQSA has only one DSSI connector and it is not connected to a bulkhead connector panel. > > If the bulkhead connector panel has a single DSSI connector, there should be > SIP terminators installed on the M7769 KFQSA next to the DSSI connector on > the M7769 KFQSA as one end of the DSSI bus. There are terminators installed behind the DSSI connector. The KFQSA manual says they should be removed if using a bulkhead connector, but I am not. I have the cable coming down from the storage area into the DSSI connector. > > If the bulkhead connector panel has two DSSI connectors, the SIP > terminators should be removed on the M7769 KFQSA next to the DSSI > connector on the M7769 KFQSA, and there should be an external terminator > on one of the two DSSI connectors on the bulkhead connector panel. > > If there is no bulkhead connector panel connected directly to the > M7769 KFQSA, and instead it is connected to an internal DSSI bus cable inside > the chassis, and the M7769 KFQSA is at the end of the internal DSSI bus cable, > there should be SIP terminators installed on the M7769 KFQSA next to the > DSSI connector on the M7769 KFQSA as one end of the DSSI bus. I would > expect the other end of the internal DSSI bus cable to connect to a bulkhead > connector panel, which should have an external terminator attached as the > other end of the DSSI bus. This is indeed the case. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Jan 3 05:44:03 2022 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 12:44:03 +0100 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 02, 2022 at 06:59:47PM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-01-02 6:28 p.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: [...] >> On that note a Raspberry Pi 2b running SIMH/VAX is about 1.6 VUPS. > But can the Pi handle a gazillion students all time sharing at once @ > 2400? How long was the VAX timesharing era as I suspect networked PC's > come out soon after that. Probably about as well as the actual VAXen back when I was failing my degree. I remember trying (IIRC) "SET PRI" once to lower my session priority one notch, and while I did eventually get a DCL prompt back, it was basically unusable. It was hardly a speed demon even at default priority, and I returned to my Amiga to get anything useful done. Raspberry Pis have between zero and six serial ports, depending on model, amount of faffing about, and whether you consider three-wire LVTTL to be a serial port or demand a full seven-wire RS232 port. Beyond that, you're going to have to multiplex connections over some other port, with Ethernet being by far the most obvious choice. Meanwhile, back at the university in the mists of time, they had rooms full of dumb terminals, mostly VT220s but some VT420s, connected to an X.25 PAD which then winged its way to the VAX cluster, and indeed onwards to JANET, so it's not "cheating" to multiplex over a packed-switched WAN connection on the Pi. I expect the VAX's directly-connected serial port(s) would have been reserved for the operator console. The Pi 4 is between three and ten times faster than the Pi 2, depending on task. I'd expect SIMH to fall towards the bottom of that range, but 5 VUPs isn't to be sniffed at, especially as that is presumably a per-core limitation and you could run a cluster of four of them. On a device which draws ~7W at full tilt. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 3 07:54:25 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:54:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay Message-ID: <20220103135425.9E24718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > From that last picture, it looks like one of the plugs is five pronged, > and looks very similar to the 120/208V 30A 3? plug in one of the > pictures about the current 780 auction. Not too surprising; the /780 and /785 are basically the same machine. (In fact, one could convert a /780 to a /785 by pulling out the /780 CPU cards and replacing them with a set of /785 cards; basically the same cards, with the 74S chips replaced with 74AS.) Noel From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Jan 3 08:33:47 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 14:33:47 +0000 Subject: Apple I auction In-Reply-To: <59c66649-7e82-514a-7651-e96c04e5490d@att.net> References: <59c66649-7e82-514a-7651-e96c04e5490d.ref@att.net> <59c66649-7e82-514a-7651-e96c04e5490d@att.net> Message-ID: Anyone know what this sold for? 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of s shumaker via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 22, 2021 9:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Apple I auction Another Apple I on the auction block: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/114629733_the-chaffey-college-apple-1-personal-computer Steve From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 3 09:16:59 2022 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:16:59 -0500 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220103135425.9E24718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220103135425.9E24718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5819125f-af32-95be-4740-35c604f53b35@e-bbes.com> On 2022-01-03 08:54, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Not too surprising; the /780 and /785 are basically the same machine. (In > fact, one could convert a /780 to a /785 by pulling out the /780 CPU cards > and replacing them with a set of /785 cards; basically the same cards, with > the 74S chips replaced with 74AS.) There should be more /785s out there than plain /780... IIRC, most /780 were upgraded, as the "old" /780 had some EMC issues in the field? Am I dreaming this up? From dillera at dillernet.com Mon Jan 3 10:09:17 2022 From: dillera at dillernet.com (Andrew Diller) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:09:17 -0500 Subject: Apple I auction In-Reply-To: References: <59c66649-7e82-514a-7651-e96c04e5490d.ref@att.net> <59c66649-7e82-514a-7651-e96c04e5490d@att.net> Message-ID: $400,000 7 bids -andy > On Jan 3, 2022, at 9:33 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone know what this sold for? > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of s shumaker via cctalk > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2021 9:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Apple I auction > > Another Apple I on the auction block: > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/114629733_the-chaffey-college-apple-1-personal-computer > > > Steve From john at forecast.name Mon Jan 3 10:13:12 2022 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:13:12 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> > On Jan 2, 2022, at 9:14 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/2/22 6:59 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> But can the Pi handle a gazillion students all time sharing at once @ 2400? > > I think that will depend on how you connect the serial terminals. > > I know that it's possible to establish network connectivity to serial terminal servers. I don't know how many of those terminal servers can be connected to SimH. It may be better to use LAT between terminal servers and VMS running in the emulated VAX. > That was the whole point of LAT. At the time almost all serial terminals were connected by DZ-style interfaces, so 1 interrupt when you typed a character and a second interrupt after the character was echoed. LAT created a virtual circuit between the terminal server and a specific host. The slot layer ran over the virtual circuit between a logical terminal on the host and a physical terminal on the server. Data messages at the virtual circuit layer were limited to no more frequent than a terminal server parameter ( default 80mS). With appropriate optimizations and data availability it was possible to shrink the interrupt load on the host to 1-2 interrupts/ethernet packet (say around 1400 characters). There were a lot of internal religious wars around the use of CTERM/Telnet/LAT. After finishing DECnet-Ultrix I had a couple of weeks of spare time and implemented a prototype Ultrix-LAT - one of the good things that came out of having a MicroVAX I in my office! John. >> How long was the VAX timesharing era as I suspect networked PC's come out soon after that. > > Good question. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 3 10:39:01 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:39:01 -0500 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <5819125f-af32-95be-4740-35c604f53b35@e-bbes.com> References: <20220103135425.9E24718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5819125f-af32-95be-4740-35c604f53b35@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > There should be more /785s out there than plain /780... > IIRC, most /780 were upgraded, as the "old" /780 had some EMC issues > in the field? Am I dreaming this up? The thing that always made me wonder is where are all the 8600's. The 8600 was apparently the best selling large Vax, outselling the 780 and 750, so what happened to all of them? They weren't any bigger than a 780... C From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jan 3 10:49:45 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:49:45 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2022, at 9:18 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > I had accounts on a MicroVAX 2 and a VAX 11/750. The microvax was faster for most compute jobs, but the 750 with 1/4 the memory handled more users mostly in text editors with the occasional compile or nroff/troff jobs. IIRC, the 750 had faster disks... > > Warner I picked up a copy of ?VAX I/O Subsystems: Optimizing Performance?, it gives I/O speeds for SDI and DSSI disks, I don?t doubt that the VAX-11/750 had faster disks if it had RA81 or especially RA82 disks. Here we go, from the HP "OpenVMS I/O Users Reference Manual? for 7.3-1. "On VAX systems, the RD53 and RD54 are 5.25-inch, full-height, Winchester-type drives with average access time of 38 ms and a data transfer rate of 0.625 MB per second.? Even the RA80 can beat that, basically any SDI disk on a VAX-11/750 would be noticeably faster. There is a reason why MicroVAX I and II systems with RD53/54 drives were considered to be good for Performance Tuning training. It?s really easy to notice improvements. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 10:50:18 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:50:18 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 12:18 AM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > I had accounts on a MicroVAX 2 and a VAX 11/750. The microvax was faster > for most compute jobs, but the 750 with 1/4 the memory handled more users > mostly in text editors with the occasional compile or nroff/troff jobs. > IIRC, the 750 had faster disks... I'll agree with that. We used to run 40-50 users on our 8MB 11/750 (with both CMI and Unibus disk) but it did do some swapping over 8-10 users. The MicroVAX II was a pretty snappy single-user machine, but was a big sluggish over 4 users. Our big compute jobs were running compilers. Most of our user load was VMS MAIL, EDT, MASS-11... -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 3 11:01:21 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:01:21 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9a631cba-5623-33a3-c378-cd36385be265@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1ec2b77a-d52c-d9fd-61da-df8b7267a16a@alembic.crystel.com> <4d3d7a7f-33a3-8021-427f-1c3dee0d4278@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <31e02ef3-6e2f-06d4-cd8a-479b9b17a4df@sydex.com> <72F46A37-93B2-4181-A884-B9D10BCAA096@nf6x.net> <5d7e4467-a9a4-83f0-232e-6da5a32f42ea@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/22 7:11 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> but the 780 was really slow. I have a Microvax II here >> that would equal it CPU speed-wise, and the running of >> the main memory on the SBI was cool for the 782 option >> but was pretty slow. > > Can I ask for a rough translation in to comparative VAX > Units of Performance (VUPs)?? I /think/ that the VAX > 11/780 was 1 VUP. By definition, the /780 was 1.0 VUP.? The KA630 (MicroVAX II) was supposed to be 0.8 VUP.? It beat the /780 on floating point, supposedly. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 3 11:11:26 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:11:26 -0600 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <5819125f-af32-95be-4740-35c604f53b35@e-bbes.com> References: <20220103135425.9E24718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5819125f-af32-95be-4740-35c604f53b35@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <318fc096-2c53-8c51-e3a4-2193bc36641f@pico-systems.com> On 1/3/22 9:16 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-01-03 08:54, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> Not too surprising; the /780 and /785 are basically the >> same machine. (In >> fact, one could convert a /780 to a /785 by pulling out >> the /780 CPU cards >> and replacing them with a set of /785 cards; basically >> the same cards, with >> the 74S chips replaced with 74AS.) > > There should be more /785s out there than plain /780... > IIRC, most /780 were upgraded, as the "old" /780 had some > EMC issues > in the field? Am I dreaming this up? We had two /780's I was partially responsible for.? we never had EMC trouble with them, they were really ROCK solid machines. These were not the first 780 machines made, they were delivered in about 1980 and 1982-3.? Neither were ever upgraded to /785. Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jan 3 11:29:41 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 12:29:41 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 1/3/22 11:50 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 12:18 AM Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: >> I had accounts on a MicroVAX 2 and a VAX 11/750. The microvax was faster >> for most compute jobs, but the 750 with 1/4 the memory handled more users >> mostly in text editors with the occasional compile or nroff/troff jobs. >> IIRC, the 750 had faster disks... > > I'll agree with that. We used to run 40-50 users on our 8MB 11/750 > (with both CMI and Unibus disk) but it did do some swapping over 8-10 > users. > You obviously didn't use the Ada compiler. :-) Or Eunice, for that matter. bill From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jan 3 11:43:46 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 09:43:46 -0800 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220103135425.9E24718C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5819125f-af32-95be-4740-35c604f53b35@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <8B42005A-B785-4557-B5AF-FE8406E92142@avanthar.com> On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > The thing that always made me wonder is where are all the 8600's. The 8600 was apparently the best selling large Vax, outselling the 780 and 750, so what happened to all of them? They weren't any bigger than a 780... The only VAX 8xxx I?ve heard of in this area was scrapped. I managed to rescue the system console and the ?digital? badge off of the VAX, but the scrapper had some sort of deal with the Hospital that had it to scrap the VAX itself, IIRC. Personally, these days, I think the largest I?d seriously consider is a VAX 4000 series, though I?d try to figure out how to handle a VAX 7000 if the chance arose. One of these days, I want to get SIMH/VAX running on a 12th Gen Core i7 (or better). With the ancient i7 I have here, I?ve been able to get about 34 VUPS, which is faster than my VAXstation 4000/90. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 12:19:06 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 13:19:06 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 12:29 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/3/22 11:50 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > I'll agree with that. We used to run 40-50 users on our 8MB 11/750 > > (with both CMI and Unibus disk) but it did do some swapping over 8-10 > > users. > > You obviously didn't use the Ada compiler. :-) > > Or Eunice, for that matter. Hell no! 90% of our work was in C, the rest in m68k assembler (our own), VAX MACRO, or FORTRAN. We started off with Whitesmith's C then by the late 80s also used DEC's VAX C. Compiling all the code for our product took the 11/750 6 hours to compile and link plus an additional 2 hours for an 11/730 to link under a different version of VMS. 8 hours total to rebuild totally from source. Some things about the good old days weren't so good. -ethan From david at kdbarto.org Mon Jan 3 12:40:11 2022 From: david at kdbarto.org (David Barto) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:40:11 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <73589404-810E-4418-9266-D66F60A63B11@kdbarto.org> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 10:19 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 12:29 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> On 1/3/22 11:50 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >>> I'll agree with that. We used to run 40-50 users on our 8MB 11/750 >>> (with both CMI and Unibus disk) but it did do some swapping over 8-10 >>> users. >> >> You obviously didn't use the Ada compiler. :-) >> >> Or Eunice, for that matter. > > Hell no! > > 90% of our work was in C, the rest in m68k assembler (our own), VAX > MACRO, or FORTRAN. We started off with Whitesmith's C then by the > late 80s also used DEC's VAX C. > > Compiling all the code for our product took the 11/750 6 hours to > compile and link plus an additional 2 hours for an 11/730 to link > under a different version of VMS. 8 hours total to rebuild totally > from source. Some things about the good old days weren't so good. > > -ethan At my current $WORK it takes a 40 core linux box with 200GB of RAM 22 hours to rebuild our source tree from scratch. So for some of us it hasn?t gotten any better over the years. David From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 3 12:47:23 2022 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 13:47:23 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 2022-01-03 13:19, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Compiling all the code for our product took the 11/750 6 hours to > compile and link plus an additional 2 hours for an 11/730 to link > under a different version of VMS. 8 hours total to rebuild totally > from source. Some things about the good old days weren't so good. Disagree here ;-) Before you hit compile, you switched your brain on, and thought for a while what you did. When I watch this kids in the office now pressing compile after each character they typed, .... From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 3 12:58:06 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 13:58:06 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> Message-ID: The discussion about 3-phase made me check some documentation. The drive I remembered that uses 3-phase power is the RP04. I remember a warning to the installer to verify the phase order; if that's wrong the drive will try to spin up in the wrong direction, which might partially unscrew the pack from the spindle -- that would be bad if the heads tried to load. The RP07 is also 3-phase. Other drives I looked at are 1 phase. I also looked at some CDC 6000 series docs. Those used 400 Hz 3 phase for supplying the CPU and peripheral logic. The CPU cabinets also take 3 phase mains power for the compressors (for the Freon cooling system). Curiously, the 1964-era 6603 disk drive uses only 400 Hz power. I wonder if that feeds the spindle motor, or if that was a DC motor? And the 626 tape drive wants 3-phase mains power. paul From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 13:37:16 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 14:37:16 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Hit Compile? In my first job, it was triggered by the EOJ card! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-03 13:47, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-01-03 13:19, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> Compiling all the code for our product took the 11/750 6 hours to >> compile and link plus an additional 2 hours for an 11/730 to link >> under a different version of VMS.? 8 hours total to rebuild totally >> from source.? Some things about the good old days weren't so good. > > Disagree here ;-) > Before you hit compile, you switched your brain on, and thought for a > while what you did. > > When I watch this kids in the office now pressing compile after each > character they typed, .... > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 3 13:41:06 2022 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 14:41:06 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <6568759a-dbd8-9a26-0c21-2910ac01effe@telegraphics.com.au> On 2022-01-03 2:37 p.m., Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Hit Compile? > > In my first job, it was triggered by the EOJ card! > > You had a COMPILER? As far as I can see, these days the state of the art is to crash at runtime for as many different stupid reasons as possible. --T (get off my lawn!) > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:? TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2022-01-03 13:47, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> On 2022-01-03 13:19, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Compiling all the code for our product took the 11/750 6 hours to >>> compile and link plus an additional 2 hours for an 11/730 to link >>> under a different version of VMS.? 8 hours total to rebuild totally >>> from source.? Some things about the good old days weren't so good. >> >> Disagree here ;-) >> Before you hit compile, you switched your brain on, and thought for a >> while what you did. >> >> When I watch this kids in the office now pressing compile after each >> character they typed, .... >> From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 13:46:46 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 14:46:46 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <6568759a-dbd8-9a26-0c21-2910ac01effe@telegraphics.com.au> References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> <6568759a-dbd8-9a26-0c21-2910ac01effe@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <9782fd60-8281-60c9-ee01-c17127dcdeb3@gmail.com> Only F*tran, which we used for predicting race horse results on the midnight shift. The enterprise app was written in ART418 assembler. I'm having lots of fun with the ESDI drives, got one running RT11 on the 11/73, and one running NetBSD on the MicroVAX, but then tried the two I got from Jeremy and it recognised them and wouldn't write to them. Then the controller got a total internal failure and so now I only have one machine working! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-03 14:41, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2022-01-03 2:37 p.m., Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> Hit Compile? >> >> In my first job, it was triggered by the EOJ card! >> >> > > You had a COMPILER? > > As far as I can see, these days the state of the art is to crash at > runtime for as many different stupid reasons as possible. > > --T > (get off my lawn!) > >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> >> On 2022-01-03 13:47, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2022-01-03 13:19, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> Compiling all the code for our product took the 11/750 6 hours to >>>> compile and link plus an additional 2 hours for an 11/730 to link >>>> under a different version of VMS.? 8 hours total to rebuild totally >>>> from source.? Some things about the good old days weren't so good. >>> >>> Disagree here ;-) >>> Before you hit compile, you switched your brain on, and thought for >>> a while what you did. >>> >>> When I watch this kids in the office now pressing compile after each >>> character they typed, .... >>> > From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jan 3 13:56:02 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 12:56:02 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <810ABC69-1755-4505-BC1C-F03D2F44964A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 11:47 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2022-01-03 13:19, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > Compiling all the code for our product took the 11/750 6 hours to > > compile and link plus an additional 2 hours for an 11/730 to link > > under a different version of VMS. 8 hours total to rebuild totally > > from source. Some things about the good old days weren't so good. > > Disagree here ;-) > Before you hit compile, you switched your brain on, and thought for a > while what you did. > > When I watch this kids in the office now pressing compile after each > character they typed, .... > Compilers today tend to still suffer from cascading error problems... I usually fix as many as I can before that starts to set in and then rebuild. But I must say that computers are sometimes much better at finding bugs and problems than I am, even when I'm thinking. Better to let automation fix the easy stuff so I can reserve the thinking time for really hard bugs... Warner From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 3 14:36:27 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 12:36:27 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> Message-ID: On 1/3/22 10:58 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The discussion about 3-phase made me check some documentation. > I also looked at some CDC 6000 series docs. Those used 400 Hz 3 phase for supplying the CPU and peripheral logic. The CPU cabinets also take 3 phase mains power for the compressors (for the Freon cooling system). Curiously, the 1964-era 6603 disk drive uses only 400 Hz power. I wonder if that feeds the spindle motor, or if that was a DC motor? And the 626 tape drive wants 3-phase mains power. Are you certain about that? The '66 document for the Bryant series I drives/6603 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bryant60127000B_Bryant4000_ServiceHbk_Oct66.pdf on page 1-3 mentions 280/440 3-phase just for the spindle motor (5 or 10 hp, depending on number of disks). The hydraulic pump had its own 3-phase motor. I think the 6603 electronics were 400Hz. Serious current draw on those motor lines too--the Series II shows power consumption draw at 280VAC--somewhere around 50A. I remember the leak jugs--and the hydraulic fluid that occasionally made it onto the floor. An operator at SVLOPS made a dash to take care of a 501 printer and slipped and fell in a puddle of the stuff. It was funny at the time... The old 808/6638 drives, which displaced the 6603, similarly used 280V 3-phase for the 5 hp spindle motor and hydraulic pump and 440Hz for the electronics. The 821 was sort of a double-capacity version of the 808. Other than for a few units, it never made it to general distribution, being rendered obsolete by the 844 disk pack drives. I recall that CDC qualified for a lucrative contract by dint of Mike Miller noticing that one of the 821s had gone offline and doing a 100 yard sprint to punch the button. CDC qualified by a matter of seconds. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 3 15:23:55 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 16:23:55 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> Message-ID: <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 3:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/3/22 10:58 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> The discussion about 3-phase made me check some documentation. > >> I also looked at some CDC 6000 series docs. Those used 400 Hz 3 phase for supplying the CPU and peripheral logic. The CPU cabinets also take 3 phase mains power for the compressors (for the Freon cooling system). Curiously, the 1964-era 6603 disk drive uses only 400 Hz power. I wonder if that feeds the spindle motor, or if that was a DC motor? And the 626 tape drive wants 3-phase mains power. > > Are you certain about that? The '66 document for the Bryant series I > drives/6603 > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bryant60127000B_Bryant4000_ServiceHbk_Oct66.pdf > > on page 1-3 mentions 280/440 3-phase just for the spindle motor (5 or 10 > hp, depending on number of disks). The hydraulic pump had its own > 3-phase motor. I think the 6603 electronics were 400Hz. Serious > current draw on those motor lines too--the Series II shows power > consumption draw at 280VAC--somewhere around 50A. I forgot that drive was Bryant. The 400 Hz only information comes from the 6000 Site Prep manual, so I guess they got it wrong. > I remember the leak jugs--and the hydraulic fluid that occasionally made > it onto the floor. An operator at SVLOPS made a dash to take care of a > 501 printer and slipped and fell in a puddle of the stuff. It was funny > at the time... > > The old 808/6638 drives, which displaced the 6603, similarly used 280V > 3-phase for the 5 hp spindle motor and hydraulic pump and 440Hz for the > electronics. The only hydraulic actuator drive I ever saw in person was an IBM 1311. Found out when it sprang a leak and sprayed hydraulic oil all over the boot pack. FE guy cleaned everything (heads, pack, etc.), fixed the seal and bled the system, and it all worked afterwards. No damage to the pack. The 6603 is highly unusual because it has 12 bit parallel data flow, rather than bit-serial as everyone else did (until Cray went back to parallel with the Cray 1, if I remember right). That made the 6603 very much faster, as far as data throughput goes, than any other drive for quite a number of years. It also has variable sector counts depending on cylinder number, which came back a long time later. And it has a rotating head actuator rather than linear motion, just as recent hard drives do. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 3 17:01:17 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 15:01:17 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/3/22 1:23 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The 6603 is highly unusual because it has 12 bit parallel data flow, rather than bit-serial as everyone else did (until Cray went back to parallel with the Cray 1, if I remember right). That made the 6603 very much faster, as far as data throughput goes, than any other drive for quite a number of years. It also has variable sector counts depending on cylinder number, which came back a long time later. And it has a rotating head actuator rather than linear motion, just as recent hard drives do. The 808/6638 is parallel also (I even have one of the heads in my desk drawer memorabilia collection (6 channel). A real Rube Goldberg setup--4 spindles, 2 motors, 2 positioners, with each positioner having only 32 possible positions. 12 heads per "track" on 32 surfaces gives you 384 track access without moving. There's a photo on twitter: https://twitter.com/DonaldM38768041/status/1215804561333473280/photo/2 showing a guy standing before an open one at Fermilab. --Chuck From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Mon Jan 3 19:17:10 2022 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 17:17:10 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0afe6e06-bdba-2f39-b274-c81e0ca54573@flying-disk.com> Earlier, I wrote: > 30-pound struts are not strong enough. They improved things a bit, > but it still takes a lot of effort to raise the box. I have ordered a > pair of 50-pound struts and will post an update when they arrive (next > week). The pair of 50-pound struts arrived today, and in my opinion they are just barely adequate. If I was trying for perfection, I would use the 60-pound ones, but they currently have a 6 to 7 week lead time. I can easily live with these. In summary, what I have learned about replacement gas struts for the DEC PDP-11/44 in a 40" high cabinet: 1. The specifications are: 15.24" extended, 9.77" compressed, stroke length 5.47", threaded ball studs, extension force 50 or 60 (preferred) pounds. 2. A good replacement is the McMaster-Carr 4138T55 gas strut in either the 50 or 60 pound force version. The price as of January 2022 is $20.29 each. 3. The threaded ball ends on the 4138T55 are 5/16"-18 threads, while the original DEC ones are 5/16"-24. They are easy to swap without unscrewing them from the cabinet, and this is the method that DEC recommends and describes on pages 5-5 to 5-7 of the PDP-11/44 System User's Guide, EK-11044-UG. You simply unsnap a retaining clip (no tool needed), pop the strut off the ball end (a screwdriver might help), and reverse the process with the new strut. A piece of 4"x4" lumber does a good job of holding the box up while doing this (stick it under the rear of the cabinet when it is in the raised position). EK-11044-UG is available at: . (In my earlier posting I gave the wrong DEC P/N for the manual.) 4. The 4138T55 struts that McMaster-Carr sells are manufactured by Suspa Parts . The 30-pounds struts are their part number C16-24186, and the 50-pound struts are C16-24188. I suspect that the P/N for the 60-pound struts would be C16-24189, but cannot confirm that. Their price is $32.00 each, so it is less expensive to buy them from McMaster. 5. Suspa's design guide recommends mounting the struts with the rod end down, the opposite of how DEC mounted them. I have verified that they can easily be mounted with the rod down as long as you connect the upper (body) end first. That is the way I have them now in my system. I hope that this helps someone who might need to replace the gas struts on their PDP-11/44 system or something similar. It has been an interesting learning experience. Alan Frisbie From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jan 3 20:49:48 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 19:49:48 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/3/22 4:01 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > https://twitter.com/DonaldM38768041/status/1215804561333473280/photo/2 Interesting series of tweets. I'm surprised by the tweet about Seymour Cray founding Control Data Corporation. I know that Cray /worked/ for CDC, and left to found Cray Research, but I was not aware that Seymour had anything to do with founding CDC. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 22:58:45 2022 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 23:58:45 -0500 Subject: The Prolok Saga (Was: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just as my first product was about to go to market, the company president decided we needed copy protection. He wanted Prolok. I objected, and proposed that if I could break it in 24 hours, we wouldn't use it. I took 25 hours, and we did use it (fair is fair). I finally found my notes and the unlock tool. The very cryptic notes included inline. I haven't decided where to post the source yet. If anyone has prolok'ed disks and want to try it out, I'll be happy to send it to you. I don't run physical DOS machines any more, so my ability to test is limited. If you want to just run a random EXE from 1983, you can try UNPROLOK.EXE here. https://drive.google.com/corp/drive/folders/1amoYi_fY6f2UYdYeTA1o86rmAtYpsLfF --- snip --- prolok.doc prolok information sheet How to Un-Prolok a file db xxx.exe A: g 20 start up g =27 3b skip int 1 and int 3 steal r si 1 ruin debugger test g 443 t t t should be at 54b g =47d 481 AL is set to correct disk B: g 4a8 make sure AH is 0x10, Carry set at 4c3 the is a write interrupt that must succeed g 4c5 r f NC clear Carry bit r AX 0 set AH to 0 g 4d2 Carry should be on, AX = 1000 g 4ea make sure BX has 47 (from table at 870) C: repeat area from B to C for second entry in table D: g 51c trick decryption part t 700 t c0 t until SI = 533 (about 20 times) g 53e BX should be 0, g 54e r ax = 0, bx = 0, cx = 0, dx = 1, sp = 866, bp = 0 si = 45a, di = 54d, cs, ss, ds, es = 283e flags: NV UP EI PL ZR NA PE NC g 57e r f ZR g 58b r f ZR g 5b0 t g =5b6 5b9 skip steal of int 21 t g =5bf 5d3 g =5e4 5e6 skip steal of int 27h F: convert user program r BX = number of 512 byte PAGES in file g 5f4 ax has base segment of user code g 627 at this point we have the converted user program in main memory. G: write it to disk d 0 examine the first few bytes if the first two are 5a 4d or 4d 5a then it is a .EXE file else a .COM file. N outfile.com if it was .EXE you will have to rename it after compute PAGES * 0x200 r cx, bx the above value w 970 q if you continue from this point bx, cx are set wrong H: if we continued rather than writing the file g 637 g =642 644 --- Data Areas (all in CS) Address (+100) What 78b 88b store initial int 21h vector IP (0:84) 78d 88d store initial int 21h vector CS (0:86) 78b 88b store initial int 21h vector IP (0:9c) 78b 88b store initial int 21h vector CS (0:9e) 78b 88b segment of base of user code (cs:970) ^L How to disassemble Un-Prolok.exe d 0 l 100 d cs:0 l 450 u 11 l 40 u 430 l 29 d 458 l 3 u 45b l 23 u 47d l 90 u 50d l f d cs:50d l f u 51c l 32 u 54e l 98 u 5e6 l 180 d cs:765 l b u 770 l 73 u 7e2 l 50 d cs:820 l 150 u 970 l 360 d cs:0800 l 800 d cs:1000 l 800 d cs:1800 l 800 d cs:2000 l 400 q -------------- next part -------------- prolok.doc prolok information sheet How to Un-Prolok a file db xxx.exe A: g 20 start up g =27 3b skip int 1 and int 3 steal r si 1 ruin debugger test g 443 t t t should be at 54b g =47d 481 AL is set to correct disk B: g 4a8 make sure AH is 0x10, Carry set at 4c3 the is a write interrupt that must succeed g 4c5 r f NC clear Carry bit r AX 0 set AH to 0 g 4d2 Carry should be on, AX = 1000 g 4ea make sure BX has 47 (from table at 870) C: repeat area from B to C for second entry in table D: g 51c trick decryption part t 700 t c0 t until SI = 533 (about 20 times) g 53e BX should be 0, g 54e r ax = 0, bx = 0, cx = 0, dx = 1, sp = 866, bp = 0 si = 45a, di = 54d, cs, ss, ds, es = 283e flags: NV UP EI PL ZR NA PE NC g 57e r f ZR g 58b r f ZR g 5b0 t g =5b6 5b9 skip steal of int 21 t g =5bf 5d3 g =5e4 5e6 skip steal of int 27h F: convert user program r BX = number of 512 byte PAGES in file g 5f4 ax has base segment of user code g 627 at this point we have the converted user program in main memory. G: write it to disk d 0 examine the first few bytes if the first two are 5a 4d or 4d 5a then it is a .EXE file else a .COM file. N outfile.com if it was .EXE you will have to rename it after compute PAGES * 0x200 r cx, bx the above value w 970 q if you continue from this point bx, cx are set wrong H: if we continued rather than writing the file g 637 g =642 644 Data Areas (all in CS) Address (+100) What 78b 88b store initial int 21h vector IP (0:84) 78d 88d store initial int 21h vector CS (0:86) 78b 88b store initial int 21h vector IP (0:9c) 78b 88b store initial int 21h vector CS (0:9e) 78b 88b segment of base of user code (cs:970) How to disassemble Un-Prolok.exe d 0 l 100 d cs:0 l 450 u 11 l 40 u 430 l 29 d 458 l 3 u 45b l 23 u 47d l 90 u 50d l f d cs:50d l f u 51c l 32 u 54e l 98 u 5e6 l 180 d cs:765 l b u 770 l 73 u 7e2 l 50 d cs:820 l 150 u 970 l 360 d cs:0800 l 800 d cs:1000 l 800 d cs:1800 l 800 d cs:2000 l 400 q  From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 4 01:14:14 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 23:14:14 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3a317655-0f41-059f-70bf-c1b5ba9709bb@sydex.com> On 1/3/22 6:49 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/3/22 4:01 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> https://twitter.com/DonaldM38768041/status/1215804561333473280/photo/2 > > Interesting series of tweets. > > I'm surprised by the tweet about Seymour Cray founding Control Data > Corporation.? I know that Cray /worked/ for CDC, and left to found Cray > Research, but I was not aware that Seymour had anything to do with > founding CDC. Seymour Cray, along with Bill Norris and Jim Thornton and others left Remington Rand/UNIVAC after Rand bought the near-bankrupt ERA. Apparently, the work environment at Rand was felt to be stifling. Norris had all of the Navy connections and was a great marketer, so bringing some of Rand's engineering talent along was a natural. --Chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 04:47:23 2022 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 07:47:23 -0300 Subject: The Prolok Saga (Was: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> Message-ID: Fred, a completely unrelated piece of information, but interesting nonetheless: Elnec device programmers are very famous for the number of devices it programs and its robustness. Also for their clones. If you open a cloned beeprog you cannot differ it from an original beeprog. I still haven't completely reverse engineered the protection, but it seems to be related to the serial number. If any host software beyond 2.63 detects a "fake programmer" it BRICKS the cloned prigrammer. Yes, rends it useless. You gotta reprogram a pair of eeproms and a pic to make it work back again. You told about the prolok plus erasing hds and I remembered of this atitude from elnec. And no, I know of no one that sued elnec for bricking their clone programmer. So bad. They are great programmers, I have an old beeprog. 73 de pu2sex Alexandre Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em ter, 2 de nov de 2021 17:35, Fred Cisin via cctalk escreveu: > On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > The trickiest protection I've seen is where there is a hole punched > > through the disk on one track. The idea is that the protected program > > writes to that track and expects to see a failure to read that track. > It doesn'tneed to be a hole all the way through, merely any physical > defect that renders that spot unusable. > > The "Physical Defect" protection. > > Copy protected disks had already been made with flawed content to produce > an error on READ, and were easily circumvented by the "duplicate" copy > having flawed content. The next step was to have a physical defect, so > that the protection software would WRITE to the bad track, and confirm > that the track really was damaged. > So, they would scratch the disk. > In the case of Prolok, the check to confirm a physical defect consisted of > writing all zeroes to that area; verifying all zeroes; writing all ones; > and verifying all ones. > > > Vault Corporation produced "Prolok" with a physical defect. To make it > MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE to investors and clients, instead of a roomful of > people scratching disks with paperclips, they used a "laser fingerprint" > (use a laser, instead of a paperclip). > > Since they gave the same or similar subroutines, that checked for the > defect, to every client, it was cracked with software that would locate > that subroutine, and replace the subroutine call with NOPs or gut the > innards of the subroutine. The cracks were often posted on Compuserve. > (Vault sued Quaid software for "CopyWrite"/"RAMKEY") > https://casetext.com/case/vault-corp-v-quaid-software-ltd ) > > For "cloning" (pirating copies, often with the Central Point Option > board (flux hardware)), software was developed that would > identify the location of the defect, the cloner would then attempt to > scratch the disk at that location, and then the software would locate the > defect and juggle stuff around to put the content in the right place(s) > relative to the defect. > > > But, Vault Corporation wasn't satisfied until they shot themselves in the > foot with very high caliber rounds. > They announced "Prlok PLUS". W. Krag Brotby (chairman of Vault) said that > it would, if it detected a "fake" copy, wipe out the user's hard disk! > Even at the announcement of Prolok PLUS, the computer marketing > community was aghast and enraged. It doesn't take much to realize the PR > nightmare, and the legal liabilities for damaging a customer computer, > even if it was NOT a false positive! > > Ashton-Tate, the largest Prolok client for dBase III, and part > owner of Vault, immediately cancelled their contracts. And announced > that they had done so, that they had never used Prolok Plus, never would, > and no longer used Vault Corporation products. > Almost all of Vault's other clients follwed suit. > > Prolok Plus never made it to market! > 'Course the "word was out". Few people realize that it was NEVER > actually put to use. In fact some of the more idiotic newspaper "solve > your computer problems" columnists, when stumped, would actually speculate > "maybe your computer was attacked by an out of control copy-protection > program." > > > So, we ended up with a mythical monster, and the creator of that mythical > monster was vanquished. > > If anybody can document an actual existence of Prolok Plus, I would like > to hear about it. > > > There is little mention of it on the web, but: > > https://tech.slashdot.org/story/08/06/09/1927205/a-history-of-copy-protection > "Re:Ahhh, holes burned in disks (Score:5, Informative)" > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=9y4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=prolok+plus+copy+protection+vault+corporation&source=bl&ots=9Y7SBcnFx9&sig=ACfU3U3JDSEI-QjLjMi1V_gWdPq8gaHrHg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjijpjCufrzAhX2TDABHXh2DBgQ6AF6BAgHEAM#v=onepage&q=prolok%20plus%20copy%20protection%20vault%20corporation&f=false > > https://www.pcjs.org/blog/2019/05/05/ > Kryoflux display of Prolok > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Jan 4 06:05:03 2022 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:05:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1677325336.2114235.1641297903941@mail.yahoo.com> >There's a photo on twitter: > >https://twitter.com/DonaldM38768041/status/1215804561333473280/photo/2 > >showing a guy standing before an open one at Fermilab. In of the pictures are shown some very handy tape and disk pack holders on wheels. I never saw such fancy holders. Would be great to come across one of those - or better so some myself. Cheers, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de From compoobah at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 07:29:26 2022 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 05:29:26 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> On Sun, 2022-01-02 at 12:00 -0600, Grant wrote: > Where are you getting two /different/ phases?? --? Remember, the > different legs on residential 120/240 wiring are really the same > single > phase. > > How do you get *two* /different/ phases without access to a *third* > phase?? There are only a few places in the U.S.A. (and I'm not aware > of > anywhere else in the world) that actually have 2? power (where the ? > are > 90? out of phase with each other). I have seen some roads where the utility has 2 of the phases plus neutral going down them, not true 2-phase power, but 2 phases 120/240 degrees apart with the third phase just not present. Every time I've seen that it seems like fools economy, but I guess they figure twice the loads for only one more wire. Can't remember what it was called but I do remember seeing in some book somewhere about a "phantom 3rd leg" or something where they used 2 wires with 120/240 degree phase separation into the transformer and then the third phase "corner" was just floating and current would "return" across the other two. As it was brought up in the context of "make sure some yahoo didn't try this on your install and if they did be very careful" and was delta-only I imagine it was not that common. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 4 08:47:28 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 09:47:28 -0500 Subject: RSTS V10.1 patch Message-ID: <6DA5297C-D9EF-407E-9EA9-EE3D35E3CF75@comcast.net> I just added a patch to https://github.com/pkoning2/decstuff, in patches/shut.cmd, which cures a problem in RSTS V10.1 that seems to come and go with no clear pattern. The failure is a crash, sometimes a halt, during system shutdown. The cause was a write to the wrong location when removing the DCL runtime system, because of a register not being set before that action. The patch can be installed with ONLPAT; it takes effect immediately (because it patches a non-resident overlay). paul From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 09:06:41 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 15:06:41 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I have seen some roads where the utility has 2 of the phases plus > neutral going down them, not true 2-phase power, but 2 phases 120/240 > degrees apart with the third phase just not present. Yes, that's open delta. There are one or two small commercial buildings here in town that still have open high leg delta service -- that's 240V delta, and one of the 240V transformers is center-tapped to give 120/240 split phase for small loads. My guess is, aside from saving on wire, insulators, etc. (not significant in town), the real savings is on disconnects and the extra transformer. Thanks, Jonathan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 4 09:40:38 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 08:40:38 -0700 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <3a317655-0f41-059f-70bf-c1b5ba9709bb@sydex.com> References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3a317655-0f41-059f-70bf-c1b5ba9709bb@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/22 12:14 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Seymour Cray, along with Bill Norris and Jim Thornton and others > left Remington Rand/UNIVAC after Rand bought the near-bankrupt ERA. > Apparently, the work environment at Rand was felt to be stifling. > Norris had all of the Navy connections and was a great marketer, > so bringing some of Rand's engineering talent along was a natural. Interesting. I guess I thought that since Seymour left CDC to form Cray Research, that meant that he was more of an employee at CDC and had less influence on how it operated as a company. I would have assumed that someone that was a founder would have had more influence and tried to improve things before splitting off and forming yet another new company. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 4 09:49:28 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 08:49:28 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/22 8:06 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Yes, that's open delta. There are one or two small commercial buildings > here in town that still have open high leg delta service -- that's > 240V delta, and one of the 240V transformers is center-tapped to give > 120/240 split phase for small loads. I'm having trouble reconciling that with my current mental understanding. First I have to bring up line vs phase. My understanding is that the line is the actual wire, and a phase is what runs over the two lines. I can see how you might use two lines combined with a "corner ground" for as the third line for a delta configuration. Thus you have three three distinct line parings ~> phases. L1+G, L1+L2, L2+G. If that is not what's being discussed in this case, then I have no idea what it is. > My guess is, aside from saving on wire, insulators, etc. (not > significant in town), the real savings is on disconnects and the > extra transformer. I apparently need to do more reading. I'm not seeing how corner ground delta will save a transformer. Or I'm completely misunderstanding things. -- Time to research "open delta". -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 09:52:38 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 15:52:38 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I apparently need to do more reading. Indeed. This is not corner-grounded delta. Once you figure out open delta, look at dog-leg. Thanks, Jonathan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 4 10:03:42 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 11:03:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3-phase power Message-ID: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Scott Quinn > I have seen some roads where the utility has 2 of the phases plus > neutral going down them, not true 2-phase power, but 2 phases 120/240 > degrees apart with the third phase just not present. My street has that. The subdivision as a whole has all 3 phases (down the main road through it), but individual streets off of it have only 1 or 2. (The whole subdivision is on poles, so it's easy to see.) On the ones with 2, some houses are connected to one, some to the other. > I guess they figure twice the loads for only one more wire. No, because most homes are only connected to one phase. I think the main reason to do it is that it allows the total load (of the entire subdivision) to be somewhat balanced across all 3 phases. > Can't remember what it was called but I do remember seeing in some book > somewhere about a "phantom 3rd leg" or something My house has something like that; the previous owner wanted '3-phase service' for machine tools (I think - could have been a compressor, or something) in his basement workshop, so they sold him a pseudo-3-phase service. I forget the exact details of how it works, but the 3rd phase is at 170V to neutral, or something like that. (So I can't power any 110V outlets off the third phase.) I think the way it works is that the two 'main' phases are 220V to each other, 110V to neutral (I think from the usual center-tapped transformer off one of the three main feed phases, i.e. 180 degrees to each other). The third 'pase' is generated by a second, smaller transformer connected to the other feed phase in some arcane way I forget the details of. So it's 120 degrees away from the other two. Noel From info at schroeder-edv.de Tue Jan 4 07:20:34 2022 From: info at schroeder-edv.de (info at schroeder-edv.de) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 14:20:34 +0100 Subject: StorageTek 9-trk Tape Drive 2925 Restauration Message-ID: Hello, Has anybody a? STC 2925 9-trk Tape Drive. I need a BIN- or HEX-File from an EPROM on the CP--Card. It's the PROM #1 with the number 403936303. Best regards Lothar From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 4 10:42:42 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 11:42:42 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3a317655-0f41-059f-70bf-c1b5ba9709bb@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 4, 2022, at 10:40 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/4/22 12:14 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Seymour Cray, along with Bill Norris and Jim Thornton and others left Remington Rand/UNIVAC after Rand bought the near-bankrupt ERA. Apparently, the work environment at Rand was felt to be stifling. Norris had all of the Navy connections and was a great marketer, so bringing some of Rand's engineering talent along was a natural. > > Interesting. > > I guess I thought that since Seymour left CDC to form Cray Research, that meant that he was more of an employee at CDC and had less influence on how it operated as a company. I would have assumed that someone that was a founder would have had more influence and tried to improve things before splitting off and forming yet another new company. Being a founder doesn't necessarily help much if the company gets big and chairwarmers take control. It's one thing if you're a chairwarmer yourself and rise to CEO, but if you're a top engineer you may be in a non-control position -- especially back then when managers were managers and engineers just did what they were told. For another example, consider Steve Jobs, who didn't even leave Apple voluntarily. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 4 10:44:20 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 10:44:20 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3a317655-0f41-059f-70bf-c1b5ba9709bb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2588b71a-aded-3128-6e1a-466a6ef4b8ea@pico-systems.com> On 1/4/22 9:40 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/4/22 12:14 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Seymour Cray, along with Bill Norris and Jim Thornton and >> others left Remington Rand/UNIVAC after Rand bought the >> near-bankrupt ERA. Apparently, the work environment at >> Rand was felt to be stifling. Norris had all of the Navy >> connections and was a great marketer, so bringing some of >> Rand's engineering talent along was a natural. > > Interesting. > > I guess I thought that since Seymour left CDC to form Cray > Research, that meant that he was more of an employee at > CDC and had less influence on how it operated as a > company.? I would have assumed that someone that was a > founder would have had more influence and tried to improve > things before splitting off and forming yet another new > company. > > > There are PLENTY of examples of the sole founder being either forced out by the board or shunted aside. See James Ryder or Alan Shugart, who both were forced out, sued to prevent them from using their own names, but then went into competition with their old companies and ran them out of business. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 4 10:52:08 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 10:52:08 -0600 Subject: 3-phase power In-Reply-To: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> On 1/4/22 10:03 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Scott Quinn > > > I have seen some roads where the utility has 2 of the phases plus > > neutral going down them, not true 2-phase power, but 2 phases 120/240 > > degrees apart with the third phase just not present. > > > > My house has something like that; the previous owner wanted '3-phase service' > for machine tools (I think - could have been a compressor, or something) in > his basement workshop, so they sold him a pseudo-3-phase service. I forget > the exact details of how it works, but the 3rd phase is at 170V to neutral, It should be 208V - see center grounded delta online.? 240 * sin 60 degrees = 207.8 V. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 11:00:11 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 11:00:11 -0600 Subject: 3-phase power In-Reply-To: <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> References: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: you can use a vfd drives to get 3phase power from single u just gotta size them bigger then the load u would normally need On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 10:52 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/4/22 10:03 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Scott Quinn > > > > > I have seen some roads where the utility has 2 of the phases plus > > > neutral going down them, not true 2-phase power, but 2 phases > 120/240 > > > degrees apart with the third phase just not present. > > > > > > > > My house has something like that; the previous owner wanted '3-phase > service' > > for machine tools (I think - could have been a compressor, or something) > in > > his basement workshop, so they sold him a pseudo-3-phase service. I > forget > > the exact details of how it works, but the 3rd phase is at 170V to > neutral, > It should be 208V - see center grounded delta online. 240 * > sin 60 degrees = 207.8 V. > Jon > From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jan 4 11:43:56 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 09:43:56 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <1677325336.2114235.1641297903941@mail.yahoo.com> References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> <1677325336.2114235.1641297903941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2022, at 4:05 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > > >> There's a photo on twitter: >> >> https://twitter.com/DonaldM38768041/status/1215804561333473280/photo/2 >> >> showing a guy standing before an open one at Fermilab. > > > In of the pictures are shown some very handy tape and disk pack holders on wheels. I never saw such fancy holders. Would be great to come across one of those - or better so some myself. > > Cheers, > Pierre The tape cart is just a standard cart for taking tapes between the tape library room and where the tape drives are located. I?ve seen an updated version made for DLT/SDLT/LTO tapes. The disk pack holder on the other hand is something I?ve never seen, I have to wonder if it was custom, and how well it handled an uneven load. Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 4 12:04:47 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: 3-phase power In-Reply-To: References: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F4A9D33-D609-4A60-8BFC-8A5D6B1CAFF9@comcast.net> > On Jan 4, 2022, at 12:00 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > you can use a vfd drives to get 3phase power from single u just gotta size > them bigger then the load u would normally need I've said that too, and I've been told that this is not a good idea for power supplies. Something about the waveforms involved in VFDs. I haven't studied the subject enough to decide whether that's accurate, and the only VFD usage I have is a lathe -- the sort of application VFDs are designed for. The other option, typically somewhat more expensive but cheaper than an 11/780, is a rotary converter. Those are 3 phase motors, sometimes modified a bit, driven from single phase power that construct the missing phase somewhat like a dynamotor would. Those things produce proper sine waves so they are good to use even with things that are picky. Rotary converters can be found in machine tool supply catalogs. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 4 12:26:17 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 10:26:17 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3a317655-0f41-059f-70bf-c1b5ba9709bb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3cb16821-3515-a30c-1b43-8e8925175c83@sydex.com> On 1/4/22 7:40 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I guess I thought that since Seymour left CDC to form Cray Research, > that meant that he was more of an employee at CDC and had less influence > on how it operated as a company.? I would have assumed that someone that > was a founder would have had more influence and tried to improve things > before splitting off and forming yet another new company. My recollection was over the CDC 8600 project--there is a preliminary document over at bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/8600/Preliminary8600RefMan_Aug72.pdf Sort of a 4-processor 64-bit 7600, but with some important differences, such as discarding the notion of A and B registers and relying on 16 64-bit registers for everything. P-relative branches and calls and out-of-user-space "library" routine use. Apparently, the sharp pencil people were unwilling to fund the thing fully and Seymour left (with the blessings of CDC which owned stock in Cray Research) to do his own thing, along with selection of a few key CDC personnel to help staffing. Afterwards, Cray was forbidden to recruit from CDC ranks for a number of years. At the time, the super-duper-computer funding was being funneled into Jim Thornton's STAR-100 project. You could see a definite difference of philosophy--the STAR was a virtual-memory vector machine (eventually became the ETA-10) with scalar subset facilities, whereas the 8600 was a real-memory fast scalar architecture with no vector facilities. In the end, the Cray-1 wound up with some vector instructions and registers. Funding a system like the Cray I or STAR (or any other supercomputer of the day) required a huge cash commitment and CDC was unwilling to fund *two* such projects. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 4 12:35:31 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 10:35:31 -0800 Subject: 3-phase power In-Reply-To: <4F4A9D33-D609-4A60-8BFC-8A5D6B1CAFF9@comcast.net> References: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> <4F4A9D33-D609-4A60-8BFC-8A5D6B1CAFF9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/22 10:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The other option, typically somewhat more expensive but cheaper than an 11/780, is a rotary converter. Those are 3 phase motors, sometimes modified a bit, driven from single phase power that construct the missing phase somewhat like a dynamotor would. Those things produce proper sine waves so they are good to use even with things that are picky. Rotary converters can be found in machine tool supply catalogs. One has to be careful here. The common "idler" type of rotary converter uses a 3-phase motor, with only one set of windings fed from the single phase supply and leading the third phase idle to develop a current that's +/- 90 degrees from the powered phase. So the output looks like 0,90,180, rather than 0 120 240 degrees. Good enough for powering a 3-phase motor with slight derating, but nothing I'd use to power a computer power supply. The second type is similar, but incorporates a dual field arrangement, with a single-phase field coaxial with a 3-phase one comprising a motor. You get much better output phase relationships there and one would probably work fine with a computer. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 4 13:56:55 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:56:55 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/4/22 8:52 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Indeed. This is not corner-grounded delta. Once you figure out open > delta, look at dog-leg. I did some brief reading on open delta and now think that it requires three lines, independent of ground. So I fail to see how open delta would be any benefit save for a simpler transformer (fewer coils) or fewer transformers. It seems as if you would have the same line and insulator cost as more common (closed) delta. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 14:15:28 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 20:15:28 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: One of the top Google results: https://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/2012/02/the-open-delta-three-phase-service/ Really really, there's only two pigs on the pole. And yet, delta power, though at a lower rating than transformer nameplate (vs. if you had three). Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, January 4th, 2022 at 14:56, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/4/22 8:52 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > Indeed. This is not corner-grounded delta. Once you figure out open > > > > delta, look at dog-leg. > > I did some brief reading on open delta and now think that it requires > > three lines, independent of ground. So I fail to see how open delta > > would be any benefit save for a simpler transformer (fewer coils) or > > fewer transformers. It seems as if you would have the same line and > > insulator cost as more common (closed) delta. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 4 14:28:55 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 12:28:55 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/22 12:15 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > One of the top Google results: > > https://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/2012/02/the-open-delta-three-phase-service/ > > Really really, there's only two pigs on the pole. And yet, delta power, though at a lower rating than transformer nameplate (vs. if you had three). As I understand it: High-leg delta is independent of open- or closed-delta. Open delta uses two single-phase transformers primaries connected to phases AB and BC. Secondaries are series-connected and 3-phase output is taken from the high end of either secondary and the common connection. Mostly a cost-savings measure as the efficiency isn't very good. On high-leg, one of the secondaries is center-tapped and split single-phase is fed from the center tap and either end of the secondary. Said configuration can be a 3-winding full delta configuration or the open-delta as detailed above. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 14:19:06 2022 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 15:19:06 -0500 Subject: 11/785 on ebay (2018) - was Re: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2022 11:39:01 -0500 > From: Chris Zach > > The thing that always made me wonder is where are all the 8600's. The > 8600 was apparently the best selling large Vax, outselling the 780 and > 750, so what happened to all of them? They weren't any bigger than a 780... > > C > There is an 8650 at the RICM. https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-vax-8650 -- Michael Thompson From cc at alderson.users.panix.com Tue Jan 4 16:17:08 2022 From: cc at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 17:17:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3phase power for VAXen [was Re: VAX 780 on eBay] In-Reply-To: <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> (message from Guy Sotomayor via cctalk on Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:19:51 -0800) References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> > Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 13:19:51 -0800 > From: Guy Sotomayor via cctalk > On 1/1/22 10:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> This: >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 >>> The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable, >>> given that: >>> - the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important >>> - 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale >>> in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc) >>> - this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU >>> boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which >>> seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any >>> boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located >>> (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to >>> keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless >> Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which >> makes me very suspicious. I suppose there might be a few American homes >> that have only 110 volt power, but I'm hard pressed to think of any I have >> ever seen, and that includes really old houses. > Without replacing the power controller in the 11/780, you need 208v 3-phase > to run it.? It's not impossible...nothing in the CPU actually *needs* 3-phase > as the individual power supplies are 120v but the overall maximum load is > greater than a 30A 120v circuit. > TTFN - Guy I've been reading this thread for the last few days, without the time to reply. All the statutes of limitations have run out, so I can tell the story; it will be clear shortly why I'm piggybacking on Guy's post. Back in the mists of time, Paul Allen wanted me to acquire a VAX-11/780 for his collection. Shortly after that request landed in my inbox, the DECUS DFWLUG announced that they would not be opening their VAX museum due to the untimely passing of the gentleman who was driving the effort, and that they would be disposing of the collection. I contacted the person who was handling the deaccession, but he would not discuss it with me because someone else had already arranged to take the whole collection. That person was Guy Sotomayor. Guy sold Paul two 11/785 systems (one an upgrade, with the 780-5 replacement label!) in chassis, with a third full set of boards as spares. I flew down to the Bay Area and had lunch with Guy, saw his DEC-10 and all that, and arranged for the shipping. Shortly after that, Paul floated the idea of turning the collection into an actual museum. (At the time, the project consisted of me and an electrical engineer named Keith Perez, who devoted his spare time to helping me keep Paul's big iron running. Keith was building the digital control system for Paul's submarine at the time.) The project, an online "museum" called PDPplanet, changed its name to Living Computer Museum; we hired a third engineer to help, Ian King, who was eminently qualified to get the VAXen up and running based on his own private collection of VAXen and -11s in his basement. We did not have a 3phase outlet on the second floor of the building where the collection was housed, and there was no room for the first VAX in the small computer room on the third floor, so Ian and Keith came up with an alternative: They tested all the outlets on the second floor and determined that there were three within reach of the room in which Ian was going to work on the 785 which were fed from 3 different phases off the big honking breaker panel (200A service, IIRC). Keith put together a box with the appropriate NEMA socket and three heavy duty cords feeding into it, which in turn were plugged into three outlets on the walls around what eventually became the vintage exhibition hall at Living Computers: Museum + Labs (the eventual name of the place after the modern exhibit space on the first floor was built). So it's possible to power a 780 or 785 without a power supply rebuild if you simply have the right (industrial) breaker panel in your building... Happy New Year, everybody! Rich From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 4 16:44:00 2022 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 14:44:00 -0800 Subject: 3phase power for VAXen [was Re: VAX 780 on eBay] In-Reply-To: <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: <9eac68614368495054ce1d858d9b48bcddf97547.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Tue, 2022-01-04 at 17:17 -0500, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > Paul Allen wanted me to acquire a VAX-11/780 for his > collection John Zabolitzky has an operating VAX -- I don't know the vintage -- eleven cabinets, in his collection in Neubiberg, a southeastern suburb of Munich. He also has a Cyber 180, Cyber 960, Cray Y-ML EL, Cray T3E, NEC SX-6, IBM 705, .... Photos at?https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPGeVphL95gtsGIO96iU4APdtSRnHhcm1y4-YaPspa6_jDuAZw6cfD3FR3OFr8czw?key=MjJZNUVjMWtLRkVKbmF2TnFDa3ZneDM0WWFqZ0hB From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 17:14:56 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 23:14:56 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > High-leg delta is independent of open- or closed-delta. That's correct. > Open delta uses two single-phase transformers primaries connected to > phases AB and BC. A to C is also valid, presumably it's rotated if there's a lot of open delta in an area (again, why?) to balance phases. > On high-leg, one of the secondaries is center-tapped and split > single-phase is fed from the center tap and either end of the secondary. Right, and you get a mostly unusable "high leg" w.r.t. neutral, usually 208V though I don't know what it ends up actually being in open delta with poor/uneven loading. The 120/240 power available is also supposed to be derated, IIRC it's only supposed to be 5-10% of total service load. High-leg delta exists so you can have 120/240 lighting and appliance loads in a building that consumes mostly 3-phase, like a machine shop with an office. In most areas you aren't allowed to have more than one type of service to a building (not sure if that's true for double-fed sites, never seen one with two kinds though). I've heard the Power Company usually doesn't want to install high-leg delta anymore for a variety of reasons: the load limit, people not understanding they need to skip a breaker, 120/208Y having become the usual form of smaller service three phase, etc. > Said configuration can be a 3-winding full delta configuration or the > open-delta as detailed above. Right, there's one or two of those services in town here for a couple of small commercial buildings. Four wire high leg open delta off the pole, two transformers on the pole. Thanks, Jonathan From matt at 9track.net Tue Jan 4 17:18:07 2022 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 23:18:07 +0000 Subject: 3phase power for VAXen [was Re: VAX 780 on eBay] In-Reply-To: <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: As the owner of a VAX-11/780 I can confirm what Guy says about the 866 power controller. This is the only component that needs 3-phase power. There is a small 3-phase transformer inside that provides 24V DC to the control circuitry. The power controller not only interfaces to the DEC power control bus to switch on other cabinets (with a delayed output) but also connects to airflow sensors above each blower. If the airflow fails then it cuts power to the system. The blowers themselves are all single phase. I converted my power controller to run on single phase by replacing the transformer (18VAC, 20VA). It's also important to note that the neutral wire from the line filter to the output rail is undersized for running the system on single phase. If the system were running on 3-phase then the neutral current would be minimal but running from single phase means ALL the current is going through neutral wire. I replaced this wire with one of a suitable rating. I am in the UK so the figures I give are for running a system which would normally be on 415V 3-phase from a 240V single phase supply. For 110V you can probably just double the current figures. I have the FP780 option as well as 2x DW780 and RH780 controllers. To power everything in the main cabinet takes about 16.5A. I run this all off a 20A circuit breaker (B-Curve RCBO). I have to turn on the H7100 power supplies one at a time. If I try to turn them all on at once the inrush will trip the breaker. There are two different versions on the H7100 in this system. The older version uses a 3 ohm resistor, which is shorted by a relay after power up, to limit the inrush. These have quite a high inrush current. The later version uses a thermistor in place of the resistor which greatly improves the situation. Once you have the main cabinet powered then to get a usable system you then need about another 4A to run the two BA11K Unibus boxes and whatever power is required for a disk drive. In my case that's usually an RA70 or RA72 so fairly minimal. I don't have any Massbus disks but I do have a TU77 connected to the system. The heating effect is noticeable after the system has been running for a while so you may also have to consider air conditioning power requirements. Matt From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 17:20:19 2022 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 18:20:19 -0500 Subject: DEC HDD heads? Message-ID: Dunno if this is useful for anyone but the price seems right: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-8-Cdc-Dec-Disk-Head-Heads-75010109-75010101-/255306991030 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 4 17:39:53 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 18:39:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3-phase power Message-ID: <20220104233953.2AEBC18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > It should be 208V Oh, right you are. It's been a long time, and I had a distinct memory that it was less than that, but I looked, and I think that's it. The term for my flavour of 3-phase is apparently "open wye/open delta"; each leg is 240V to the others, but only two are 110V to neutral - the "hi leg" (normally colour-coded orange; normal 3-phase uses black/red/blue) is 208V. The page Jonathan Chapman sent had a good diagram of how it is wired: https://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/3-phase-open-delta.jpg When they were doing some work on the pole decades back, I asked the foreman how it worked, and he drew a diagram to show me; I had forgotten it, but seeing that, that is it. The A and C are produced off one feed phase, but the B comes from the second feed phase. Noel From cc at alderson.users.panix.com Tue Jan 4 17:44:11 2022 From: cc at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 18:44:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3phase power for VAXen [was Re: VAX 780 on eBay] In-Reply-To: <9eac68614368495054ce1d858d9b48bcddf97547.camel@sbcglobal.net> (message from Van Snyder via cctalk on Tue, 04 Jan 2022 14:44:00 -0800) References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> <9eac68614368495054ce1d858d9b48bcddf97547.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4JT8Mv2qkpzfYm@panix5.panix.com> > Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2022 14:44:00 -0800 > From: Van Snyder via cctalk > On Tue, 2022-01-04 at 17:17 -0500, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: >> Paul Allen wanted me to acquire a VAX-11/780 for his >> collection > John Zabolitzky has an operating VAX -- I don't know the vintage -- > eleven cabinets, in his collection in Neubiberg, a southeastern suburb > of Munich. > He also has a Cyber 180, Cyber 960, Cray Y-ML EL, Cray T3E, NEC SX-6, > IBM 705, .... > Photos > at?https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPGeVphL95gtsGIO96iU4APdtSRnHhcm1y4-YaPspa6_jDuAZw6cfD3FR3OFr8czw?key=MjJZNUVjMWtLRkVKbmF2TnFDa3ZneDM0WWFqZ0hB Yes, I know about John's collection. Thanks. I suppose I should have pointed out that the story posted took place about 15 years ago, when we were all younger and healthier and living... Rich From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 4 17:46:13 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 15:46:13 -0800 Subject: 3-phase power; was: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/22 3:14 PM, Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> High-leg delta is independent of open- or closed-delta. > > That's correct. > >> Open delta uses two single-phase transformers primaries connected to >> phases AB and BC. > > A to C is also valid, presumably it's rotated if there's a lot of open delta in an area (again, why?) to balance phases. In fact, in my neighborhood, each house has a big green disconnect box on the street fed by 3-phase 11KV. Every so often, the utility sends out a notice that they'll be "re-balancing" the distribution. I imagine that that involves nothing more than changing one phase wire in the big green box. I recall a winter after an ice storm that resulted in many power outages (the line workers were complaining that with more than an inch of ice on the HV lines, that the weight would break the pole crossarms. Hope that doesn't happen again. As a consequence, the fuse in our home's transformer blew. The service guy opened the transformer case and then grabbed a 10 foot fiberglass pole; unscrewed the bad fuse and then fitted a new fuse to the pole. He advised that I should put some distance between the transformer and myself, as it wasn't unusual for these things to turn into pyrotechnic displays. > High-leg delta exists so you can have 120/240 lighting and appliance loads in a building that consumes mostly 3-phase, like a machine shop with an office. In most areas you aren't allowed to have more than one type of service to a building (not sure if that's true for double-fed sites, never seen one with two kinds though). I've heard the Power Company usually doesn't want to install high-leg delta anymore for a variety of reasons: the load limit, people not understanding they need to skip a breaker, 120/208Y having become the usual form of smaller service three phase, etc. When I worked in heavy industry, it was eye-opening to see the range of voltages, phasings and *frequencies* entailed in the operation (we had 25 Hz, 60 Hz and DC). And, of course, the mistakes made by the electricians in installing various equipment. --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue Jan 4 17:52:13 2022 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 18:52:13 -0500 Subject: 3-phase power In-Reply-To: References: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:00 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > you can use a vfd drives to get 3phase power from single u just gotta size > them bigger then the load u would normally need > > Yes, in principle this is true. In the simplest case, the VFD input is just a 6 diode full wave rectifier into a capacitor. BUT things like power factor correction on modern drives means the input circuit is a lot more complex. Usually the small VFD will be designed for single phase power or 3phase power and the derating is done for you. Using a 3phase drive on single phase typically won't work because the drive will detect a phase loss and shut down. I know for one Rockwell drive there was an internal hack that allowed it to work on single phase so the sales people could plug into a 120vac outlet. Chuck D. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jan 4 17:53:35 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 18:53:35 -0500 Subject: 3phase power for VAXen [was Re: VAX 780 on eBay] In-Reply-To: <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/2022 5:17 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > I've been reading this thread for the last few days, without the time to reply. > All the statutes of limitations have run out, so I can tell the story; it will > be clear shortly why I'm piggybacking on Guy's post. Someday we will all gather around the bonfire, ringed by our black helicopters and will share the tale of Doug's KA10 that ran in his apartment unit..... > We did not have a 3phase outlet on the second floor of the building where the > collection was housed, and there was no room for the first VAX in the small > computer room on the third floor, so Ian and Keith came up with an alternative: > They tested all the outlets on the second floor and determined that there were > three within reach of the room in which Ian was going to work on the 785 which > were fed from 3 different phases off the big honking breaker panel (200A > service, IIRC). Keith put together a box with the appropriate NEMA socket and > three heavy duty cords feeding into it, which in turn were plugged into three > outlets on the walls around what eventually became the vintage exhibition hall > at Living Computers: Museum + Labs (the eventual name of the place after the > modern exhibit space on the first floor was built). It was far worse than that.... CZ From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 4 18:04:29 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 17:04:29 -0700 Subject: 3-phase power; was: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6af49421-fa0a-e4a1-236c-9c3c5d57c623@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/4/22 4:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > In fact, in my neighborhood, each house has a big green disconnect > box on the street fed by 3-phase 11KV. Every so often, the utility > sends out a notice that they'll be "re-balancing" the distribution. > I imagine that that involves nothing more than changing one phase > wire in the big green box. I'm used to 1-4 houses being on a common transformer where I grew up. They were usually installed on polls / pads at the corner of one of the properties on the back property line and feed the four touching properties. > He advised that I should put some distance between the transformer > and myself, as it wasn't unusual for these things to turn into > pyrotechnic displays. Ya. I've seen some spectacular videos. The higher the voltage, the more spectacular. > When I worked in heavy industry, it was eye-opening to see the range > of voltages, phasings and *frequencies* entailed in the operation > (we had 25 Hz, 60 Hz and DC). And, of course, the mistakes made by > the electricians in installing various equipment. I knew about 50 and 60 Hz and DC growing up. I learned about 400 (?) Hz being used in military applications about a decade ago. 25 Hz was a surprise to me over the last year or so. I read some interesting things, much of it related to Niagara Falls and other power systems modeled after it. Voltages around the world through the last century was also interesting to read about. As was single, two (90?), and three (120?) phases. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 18:08:46 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 00:08:46 +0000 Subject: 3-phase power; was: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <6af49421-fa0a-e4a1-236c-9c3c5d57c623@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6af49421-fa0a-e4a1-236c-9c3c5d57c623@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > much of it related to Niagara Falls and other power systems > modeled after it. The IIRC oldest US generating station still in operation (on original hardware anyway) is at Mechanicville, NY. It is hydroelectric and originally fed 40 Hz AC to Schenectady. They just sped up the alternators when they connect it to the 60 Hz grid! I hear the European equivalent of US 25 Hz traction power is 16.6 Hz. Thanks, Jonathan From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 18:17:45 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 00:17:45 +0000 Subject: 3-phase power; was: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6af49421-fa0a-e4a1-236c-9c3c5d57c623@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > The IIRC oldest US generating station still in operation (on original hardware anyway) is at Mechanicville, NY. Well that ruined my evening, Wikipedia says the generating station now uses the power to mine bitcoins, because it's more profitable than selling it to the public grid. Thanks, Jonathan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 4 18:46:05 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 16:46:05 -0800 Subject: 3-phase power; was: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <6af49421-fa0a-e4a1-236c-9c3c5d57c623@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6af49421-fa0a-e4a1-236c-9c3c5d57c623@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6707fc75-0ca2-dc0e-2117-dd8520bb633b@sydex.com> On 1/4/22 4:04 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I knew about 50 and 60 Hz and DC growing up.? I learned about 400 (?) Hz > being used in military applications about a decade ago.? 25 Hz was a > surprise to me over the last year or so.? I read some interesting > things, much of it related to Niagara Falls and other power systems > modeled after it. 400Hz of course, could be encountered if one shopped war-surplus airborne electronics. I still remember adventures on Chicago's S. Michigan "Surplus Row". Word was that the original plant acquired a generator from a bankrupt carnival operator in the 1910's. But it was used all over the place; my job was with the pyrometer (instrumentation) department. It was incredible seeing the lengths that were taken to avoid using 60Hz power for things like a chart recorder. It was explained that the 25Hz power was generated on-site from coke oven gas and so was essentially free, while the 60Hz was purchased from the local utility. DC, of course, was used for overhead cranes and welding. Every shop had outlets with yellow labels indicating the voltage and frequency. You could plug a coffeepot or hot plate into the 110V (not 120 or 115 or 117) 25Hz outlet, but beware of using it for much of anything else, save lighting. BTW, you have seen no more irritating lighting than mercury-vapor lamps running off of 25Hz. Even in our shop, which used 220V 25Hz incandescent lighting, you could see the pulsation. I did discover that you could take a 110V 25Hz induction motor fan and plug it into 230V 60Hz for a real kick in performance...and probably shorter bearing life. 440V/460V 3-phase in both frequencies were in most shops. Said plant has long since vanished. This was the day of blast furnaces, open hearth furnaces and all the stuff that it fed, like merchant mills, hot- and cold-rolled sheet, tinplate, galvanized...all from a bunch of rocks. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 4 19:03:27 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 20:03:27 -0500 Subject: 3-phase power; was: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6af49421-fa0a-e4a1-236c-9c3c5d57c623@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 4, 2022, at 7:08 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > >> much of it related to Niagara Falls and other power systems >> modeled after it. > > The IIRC oldest US generating station still in operation (on original hardware anyway) is at Mechanicville, NY. It is hydroelectric and originally fed 40 Hz AC to Schenectady. They just sped up the alternators when they connect it to the 60 Hz grid! > > I hear the European equivalent of US 25 Hz traction power is 16.6 Hz. That's one of the choices. When I was in high school, I saw an ad in a technical (engineering) magazine for an electric train, a "four system" one that could run anywhere in western Europe. It could handle 1500 V DC (used in Holland), 3 kV DC, 15 kV AC I think 50 Hz, and 30 kV AC 16.67 Hz -- or maybe the frequencies were the other way around. An electric system that can handle a 20:1 ratio of voltage inputs, and probably several megawatts, in a mobile device is rather impressive. Especially in the 1960s. paul From chd at chdickman.com Tue Jan 4 19:47:25 2022 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: 3phase power for VAXen [was Re: VAX 780 on eBay] In-Reply-To: <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <20220101181251.DB8EA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c8cb46c-f78b-37f7-0d3b-c7668055b23a@shiresoft.com> <4JT6RS2qTlzfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 5:17 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > We did not have a 3phase outlet on the second floor of the building where > the > collection was housed, and there was no room for the first VAX in the small > computer room on the third floor, so Ian and Keith came up with an > alternative: > They tested all the outlets on the second floor and determined that there > were > three within reach of the room in which Ian was going to work on the 785 > which > were fed from 3 different phases off the big honking breaker panel (200A > service, IIRC). Keith put together a box with the appropriate NEMA socket > and > three heavy duty cords feeding into it, which in turn were plugged into > three > outlets on the walls around what eventually became the vintage exhibition > hall > at Living Computers: Museum + Labs (the eventual name of the place after > the > modern exhibit space on the first floor was built). > > So it's possible to power a 780 or 785 without a power supply rebuild if > you > simply have the right (industrial) breaker panel in your building... > > Happy New Year, everybody! > > Rich > After looking at the 869-D diagrams and the 11/780 power diagram, this makes sense. The power diagrams show 3 120VAC circuits. There is no phase relationship required between the phases, EXCEPT in the 869-D itself. The 4 pole 30A circuit breaker will trip if any (L1, L2, L3, N) is overloaded. If L1, L2, L3 are out of phase then the neutral doesn't carry much current, but if they are all the same phase then the total limit will be 30A. There are 4 connections L1, L2, L3 and N. In the US you would connect the highest current draw leg to one side of the 120VAC and connect the other two legs to the other 120VAC phase and then HOPE that it works. The 869-D outlet are: unswitched L1 switched L1 switched L2 switched L3 For me, if I can buy a Shelby Cobra, I buy it first and figure out where to park it later. Chuck D. From pat at vax11.net Tue Jan 4 20:43:04 2022 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 21:43:04 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2022, 18:15 Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > High-leg delta exists so you can have 120/240 lighting and appliance loads > in a building that consumes mostly 3-phase, like a machine shop with an > office. In most areas you aren't allowed to have more than one type of > service to a building (not sure if that's true for double-fed sites, never > seen one with two kinds though). I've heard the Power Company usually > doesn't want to install high-leg delta anymore for a variety of reasons: > the load limit, people not understanding they need to skip a breaker, > 120/208Y having become the usual form of smaller service three phase, etc. For what it's worth, the building I bought has two services installed when it was built in 1921 - single phase 120/240 for lighting loads, and 240V Delta for three phase loads. It's the even more obscure corner-grounded delta, which requires even more care and can't provide 120V power, since the phase to ground voltage is 240V. Patrick Finnegan From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 20:47:14 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 02:47:14 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <8hXkED7LVxAjPfJICBe7-GO22c82EWxYCIcJNgNOl71EfAqOFjQUrGByay2F2qYMWqT73JpJKfIJwDf8nJPflSrT7SXeDjBqUFBdkFCGqC4=@glitchwrks.com> > For what it's worth, the building I bought has two services installed when > it was built in 1921 - single phase 120/240 for lighting loads, and 240V > Delta for three phase loads. I bet you have a fun electrical system :D > It's the even more obscure corner-grounded delta I love the reaction when a tech or plant electrician encounters corner-grounded delta for the first time. The meter says one phase is missing, yet everything is fine! Often coming off a backfed transformer turning 208Y into 480 delta, which also apparently blows some minds. I did once see what happens when a new guy connects the neutral on the Y primary side. Thanks, Jonathan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 4 21:16:16 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 20:16:16 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/22 7:43 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > It's the even more obscure corner-grounded delta, which requires even > more care and can't provide 120V power, since the phase to ground > voltage is 240V. Why couldn't 120V be derived from either of the 240V phase and the grounded corner via a 2:1 transformer? I'm not sure how to get the two opposing 120 legs, or if they are strictly required in this instance. I would wonder if it would be possible to ground the center tap on the secondary side of the 2:1 transformer mentioned above or not. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 4 21:36:37 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 20:36:37 -0700 Subject: 3-phase power In-Reply-To: <4F4A9D33-D609-4A60-8BFC-8A5D6B1CAFF9@comcast.net> References: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> <4F4A9D33-D609-4A60-8BFC-8A5D6B1CAFF9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4a74be09-c11f-4d43-0f82-5c9d16c85f64@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/4/22 11:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I've said that too, and I've been told that this is not a good idea > for power supplies. Something about the waveforms involved in VFDs. My limited understanding is that VFDs simulate / emulate various frequencies by turning the output on and off (at full input voltage) such that the (sliding) /average/ of the output looks like it's a at a lower voltage. So when you're early in the typical sine wave (first 45?) the output is on a small percent of the time and off a large percent of the time. Near the upper portion of the peak (45?-135?) the output is on a large percent of the time and off a small percent of the time. Repeat that method on through the sine wave. So, you end up with very odd shaped signal. Supposedly motors (or any inductive load) can smooth the pulsations to behave more like a true sine wave of the simulated / emulated frequency. Non inductive loads don't smooth / average things nearly as well. Hence why you probably want to not use a VFD to power computer equipment. At least that's my understanding. > The other option, typically somewhat more expensive but cheaper than > an 11/780, is a rotary converter. Those are 3 phase motors, sometimes > modified a bit, driven from single phase power that construct the > missing phase somewhat like a dynamotor would. Wouldn't that be construct the /two/ missing phases? You input one phase between the two lines and get the other two phases between the two existing lines and the added line. > Those things produce proper sine waves so they are good to use even > with things that are picky. Yep. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 4 21:52:28 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 03:52:28 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <7c1VjDeHf2cTTCYQvuXaoyzEqW9A8Gh3chNxkIjaQIQ9iqZKiDzyxbHEz2xNdSE4xV2ZOi37X6xyIfF1oOeK7cELslkgIHEKD75nlqzu2vM=@glitchwrks.com> > Why couldn't 120V be derived from either of the 240V phase and the > grounded corner via a 2:1 transformer? It can. That's often how, say, an Edison base decorative luminary is run when all other lighting is 277V (the ratios would of course be different). Otherwise someone invariably screws a 120V bulb into a socket providing 277V. > I would wonder if it would be > possible to ground the center tap on the secondary side of the 2:1 > transformer mentioned above or not. Sure, that's one way of getting split phase 120/240V on a delta system. You've basically made high leg delta the hard way. You do also get to use a completely separate two busbar panel for your 120/240V loads, which prevents the "oops that empty breaker spots give 208V to ground" mistake. A more common method of supplying significant small loads on a delta service is to use a delta:wye transformer and provide 120/208Y. This provides more even loading on the three-phase service, and also provides 120/208Y for, say, computers :P The center/star connection in the secondary is grounded at the transformer. Thanks, Jonathan From pat at vax11.net Tue Jan 4 22:07:33 2022 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 23:07:33 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <62ed4a23d1a5bb7f8de06e4015f82981d2aa1cea.camel@gmail.com> <1a5a0724-2dbe-bbbb-7703-8a9c39649f89@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: I mean if you want to add a transformer to it you can do anything to want with voltages. It doesn't provide you 120V from the service transformer. Corner grounded Delta gives you a grounded 3 phase service (safer than ungrounded) with one less wire than high-leg delta (3 instead of 4), making it cheaper when the wiring was the expensive part. Patrick Finnegan On Tue, Jan 4, 2022, 22:16 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/4/22 7:43 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > It's the even more obscure corner-grounded delta, which requires even > > more care and can't provide 120V power, since the phase to ground > > voltage is 240V. > > Why couldn't 120V be derived from either of the 240V phase and the > grounded corner via a 2:1 transformer? > > I'm not sure how to get the two opposing 120 legs, or if they are > strictly required in this instance. I would wonder if it would be > possible to ground the center tap on the secondary side of the 2:1 > transformer mentioned above or not. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 23:58:17 2022 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 22:58:17 -0700 Subject: 3-phase power In-Reply-To: <4a74be09-c11f-4d43-0f82-5c9d16c85f64@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220104160342.6372718C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <61d864e4-dba6-8f1f-f047-58829c393621@pico-systems.com> <4F4A9D33-D609-4A60-8BFC-8A5D6B1CAFF9@comcast.net> <4a74be09-c11f-4d43-0f82-5c9d16c85f64@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 8:36 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My limited understanding is that VFDs simulate / emulate various > frequencies by turning the output on and off (at full input voltage) > such that the (sliding) /average/ of the output looks like it's a at a > lower voltage. That's how all buck switching power supplies work. It's just a question of how much low-pass filtering you do on the output. A switching power supply to power sensitive electronics that requires good voltage regulation and low ripple contains electrolytic capacitors on the output. A VFD may or may not. The specs on the VFD should tell you about the output characteristics. If you're just going to power a three-phase synchronous motor, then no filtering is needed. The inductance of the motor windings and the mechanical characteristics of the motor will filter it just fine. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Jan 5 03:33:26 2022 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 09:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC HDD heads? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1104443600.2660329.1641375206889@mail.yahoo.com> > >Dunno if this is useful for anyone but the price seems right: > >https://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-8-Cdc-Dec-Disk-Head-Heads-75010109-75010101-/255306991030 Indeed useful for my drives :) I placed a bid on it. Cheers, Pierre From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Jan 5 04:25:37 2022 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 11:25:37 +0100 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <738CC1D6-E2DF-4A78-BBA0-E5611CD3F50C@avanthar.com> <7be69783-2282-7b03-7dad-8d9745fdab8b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8467C084-31ED-480C-9879-93E802821AB5@forecast.name> <64C9BBE4-49A0-4EAB-A807-C46ED8CF2447@comcast.net> <4a04a495-da4a-b838-64ef-54d381e3197e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3a317655-0f41-059f-70bf-c1b5ba9709bb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <27512c9e831b1e041578b0fcbaed6002af9398fc.camel@agj.net> tis 2022-01-04 klockan 08:40 -0700 skrev Grant Taylor via cctalk: > On 1/4/22 12:14 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Seymour Cray, along with Bill Norris and Jim Thornton and others > > left Remington Rand/UNIVAC after Rand bought the near-bankrupt ERA. > > Apparently, the work environment at Rand was felt to be stifling. > > Norris had all of the Navy connections and was a great marketer, > > so bringing some of Rand's engineering talent along was a natural. > > Interesting. > > I guess I thought that since Seymour left CDC to form Cray Research, > that meant that he was more of an employee at CDC and had less > influence > on how it operated as a company.? I would have assumed that someone > that > was a founder would have had more influence and tried to improve > things > before splitting off and forming yet another new company. > CISCO ? Bosack and Lerner ? And after getting kicked out by the venture capitalists sold of all their remaining shares in cisco. From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 11:35:29 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:35:29 -0500 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often Message-ID: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> Selectron Vacuum Tube: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174977901251 Really nice photo-shoot! I wonder what the back-story to this particular tube might be. I don't think that $16.18 shipping would be, um, adequate protection by any measure. Cheap, but not so sure about "cost-effective" . ----- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 6 02:52:47 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 08:52:47 -0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators Message-ID: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> I think I may need to replace the two output capacitors in some of my H744 regulators. These are screw terminal 6,000uF 10V parts. I have looked on Mouser, Farnell and Digikey and there don't seem to be any available, and any that are listed are really rather costly. Does anyone know where I might find some, preferably from a reputable supplier. Note that I am in the UK. If I can't find 10V rated ones, then, generally up to what sort of voltage rating can I go? Of course, physical size will be a factor, but electrically can it affect operation of the regulator if the rated voltage is too high? Thanks Rob From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Jan 6 03:06:04 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 01:06:04 -0800 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <7B62B0B9-F88F-4741-8C78-DC90FAE56CFF@shaw.ca> On 2022-Jan-06, at 12:19 AM, Joshua Rice via cctech wrote: > Not cost effective at nearly $10,000! I understand they're very rare, given they were only used for a few years in industry and they're clocking on 3/4 of a century old, but even then, that seems an order of magnitude or two off the real value. > Actually, looking them up, doesn't seem they were used in much at all. Seems to have been a bit of a technological dead-end since core memory quickly superseded it with it's (relatively) cheap costs and (relative) ease of manufacturing. I imagine the US gov. probably used them somewhere, since they were a sucker for cutting edge technology of the time. > Would be interesting to know how many hours it's got on it "Not cost effective" ? What does that mean in the arena of valuation of historic artifacts? No, they didn't go anywhere as a product and apparently only saw use in one machine. However, the 'pro' side of such a debate is that they were a very early attempt to produce a fast digital RAM memory specifically for use in Stored-Program Machines, at a time when memory was at the top of the list of problems in development of the first SPMs, and actually before any SPMs had been produced, and weren't a serial technology like drums and delays lines tortured into applicability for the task. They are wrapped up in the history of John VonN and the IAS machine, one of the most significant machines in computing history (arguably the most significant). There's always opinion and subjective valuation in assessments of history but if one is acquainted with what was going on in that period of 46-50, they are a very interesting and notable development attempt. > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "pbirkel--- via cctalk" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > Sent: Wednesday, 5 Jan, 2022 At 17:35 > Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often > Selectron Vacuum Tube: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174977901251 > > Really nice photo-shoot! I wonder what the back-story to this particular > tube might be. > > I don't think that $16.18 shipping would be, um, adequate protection by any > measure. > Cheap, but not so sure about "cost-effective" . From rice43 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 6 02:19:52 2022 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 08:19:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> Not cost effective at nearly $10,000! I understand they're very rare, given they were only used for a few years in industry and they're clocking on 3/4 of a century old, but even then, that seems an order of magnitude or two off the real value. Actually, looking them up, doesn't seem they were used in much at all. Seems to have been a bit of a technological dead-end since core memory quickly superseded it with it's (relatively) cheap costs and (relative) ease of manufacturing. I imagine the US gov. probably used them somewhere, since they were a sucker for cutting edge technology of the time. Would be interesting to know how many hours it's got on it ------ Original Message ------ From: "pbirkel--- via cctalk" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, 5 Jan, 2022 At 17:35 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often Selectron Vacuum Tube: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174977901251 Really nice photo-shoot! I wonder what the back-story to this particular tube might be. I don't think that $16.18 shipping would be, um, adequate protection by any measure. Cheap, but not so sure about "cost-effective" . ----- From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Jan 6 03:03:40 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 01:03:40 -0800 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 2022-Jan-06, at 12:19 AM, Joshua Rice via cctech wrote: > Not cost effective at nearly $10,000! I understand they're very rare, given they were only used for a few years in industry and they're clocking on 3/4 of a century old, but even then, that seems an order of magnitude or two off the real value. > Actually, looking them up, doesn't seem they were used in much at all. Seems to have been a bit of a technological dead-end since core memory quickly superseded it with it's (relatively) cheap costs and (relative) ease of manufacturing. I imagine the US gov. probably used them somewhere, since they were a sucker for cutting edge technology of the time. > Would be interesting to know how many hours it's got on it "Not cost effective" ? What does that mean in the arena of valuation of historic artifacts? No, they didn't go anywhere as a product and apparently only saw use in one machine. However, the 'pro' side of such a debate is that they were a very early attempt to produce a fast digital RAM memory specifically for use in Stored-Program Machines, at a time when memory was at the top of the list of problems in development of the first SPMs, and actually before any SPMs had been produced, and weren't a serial technology like drums and delays lines tortured into applicability for the task. They are wrapped up in the history of John VonN and the IAS machine, one of the most significant machines in computing history (arguably the most significant). There's always opinion and subjective valuation in assessments of history but if one is acquainted with what was going on in that period of 46-50, they are a very interesting and notable development attempt. > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "pbirkel--- via cctalk" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > Sent: Wednesday, 5 Jan, 2022 At 17:35 > Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often > Selectron Vacuum Tube: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174977901251 > > Really nice photo-shoot! I wonder what the back-story to this particular > tube might be. > > I don't think that $16.18 shipping would be, um, adequate protection by any > measure. > Cheap, but not so sure about "cost-effective" . From matt at 9track.net Thu Jan 6 03:59:28 2022 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 09:59:28 +0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 06/01/2022 08:52, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I think I may need to replace the two output capacitors in some of my H744 > regulators. These are screw terminal 6,000uF 10V parts. I have looked on > Mouser, Farnell and Digikey and there don't seem to be any available, and > any that are listed are really rather costly. I think I used Mouser part number80-PEH169HA460AQU2 to replace mine. I was also considering RS part number 381-9093 as an alternative though the voltage rating is quite a bit higher. Regards, Matt From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 6 04:02:01 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:02:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022, rob at jarratt.me.uk wrote: > If I can't find 10V rated ones, then, generally up to what sort of voltage > rating can I go? Of course, physical size will be a factor, but electrically > can it affect operation of the regulator if the rated voltage is too high? If you need to ask this, are you sure you want to do electronics repair? And what makes you think that you need to replace these caps at all? Christian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 04:22:23 2022 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:22:23 -0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <03b701d802e7$4bf68e20$e3e3aa60$@gmail.com> Rob, The voltage rating is just an absolute maximum. For PSU capacitors the other critical rating is ripple current. Lower voltages are The capacitance value won't be too critical either. At the time that was made typical electrolytic tolerances were -50/+100% So your 6,000uf could be anywhere between 3,000uf and 12,000uf when new, so I suspect these https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/8556059 Sprague, 5,800uf 50v would be ok provided they physically fit... although RS has only one in stock... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 06 January 2022 08:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators > > I think I may need to replace the two output capacitors in some of my H744 > regulators. These are screw terminal 6,000uF 10V parts. I have looked on > Mouser, Farnell and Digikey and there don't seem to be any available, and > any that are listed are really rather costly. > > > > Does anyone know where I might find some, preferably from a reputable > supplier. Note that I am in the UK. > > > > If I can't find 10V rated ones, then, generally up to what sort of voltage rating > can I go? Of course, physical size will be a factor, but electrically can it affect > operation of the regulator if the rated voltage is too high? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 6 05:40:12 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:40:12 -0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti > via cctalk > Sent: 06 January 2022 10:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators > > On Thu, 6 Jan 2022, rob at jarratt.me.uk wrote: > > If I can't find 10V rated ones, then, generally up to what sort of > > voltage rating can I go? Of course, physical size will be a factor, > > but electrically can it affect operation of the regulator if the rated voltage is > too high? > > If you need to ask this, are you sure you want to do electronics repair? I am gradually learning. > And what makes you think that you need to replace these caps at all? One of the H744 regulators whines and I have been told it could be the ESR on these caps. I have measured the ESR on these particular ones (out of circuit) and it seems higher than the expected values printed on the meter and also the ESR is not stable, it fluctuates randomly. This suggests the cap is not in great condition. > > Christian From lists at glitchwrks.com Thu Jan 6 06:59:31 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:59:31 +0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> > One of the H744 regulators whines FWIW, none of mine are silent under load. If they're not being loaded (e.g. on a test bench, with no dummy load, or if you have all the boards out) they can whine excessively due to no minimum load. > it seems higher than the expected values printed on the meter Beware cheap test equipment. $client has a few of these Chinese handheld LC/RLC meters, they're wildly inaccurate on some parameters, including ESR on large electrolytics. We've got a proper Gen-Rad RLC Digibridge in the shop to compare against. We couldn't figure out why some of their tuned filter stages were failing QC at a much higher rate than expected. They were off-frequency because the cheap meters were giving consistently incorrect measurements when trying to match capacitors. That said, it's not like replacing them with new will *hurt* -- it just might not fix the whine. Thanks, Jonathan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 6 06:15:43 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 12:15:43 +0000 (WET) Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <01S881OM9BF48WXDCA@beyondthepale.ie> > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti >> via cctalk >> Sent: 06 January 2022 10:02 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators >> >> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022, rob at jarratt.me.uk wrote: >> > If I can't find 10V rated ones, then, generally up to what sort of >> > voltage rating can I go? Of course, physical size will be a factor, >> > but electrically can it affect operation of the regulator if the rated > voltage is >> too high? >> >> If you need to ask this, are you sure you want to do electronics repair? > > I am gradually learning. > I'm slowly picking this sort of stuff up as I go along too. I think that asking questions like this is the right thing to do when we are not sure about something and is not at all an indication that someone is somehow not suited to the task. Quite the reverse in fact. If we don't do this sort of work ourselves, it's not going to be easy to get someone else to do it and make sure it is done well for a reasonable price. Any contemporary electronics repair outfit, assuming one can be found, would probably recommend dumping the whole thing and replacing it with a "modern" power supply. > >> And what makes you think that you need to replace these caps at all? > I appreciate that there is lots of bogus advice out there which suggests that all capacitors need to be replaced before even starting to investigate the cause of problems but I think Rob has demonstrated that he is trying to figure out what is going on rather than just blindly replacing stuff. > > One of the H744 regulators whines and I have been told it could be the ESR > on these caps. I have measured the ESR on these particular ones (out of > circuit) and it seems higher than the expected values printed on the meter > and also the ESR is not stable, it fluctuates randomly. This suggests the > cap is not in great condition. > I guess from that the large capacitance of these units, they are probably filtering 50Hz or 100Hz ripple and high ESR is probably going to lead to higher than normal levels of ripple on the output which could possibly cause some inductive component somewhere to buzz or whine. I'm not sure if it is easy to measure the ripple on the output or if it is specified anywhere how much ripple can be tolerated before logic errors start to become a problem. Maybe it would be good to replace the capacitors in just the unit which is whining to begin with and see if it makes a difference? To address the original question, I think I read somewhere that electrolytic capacitors that are used for voltages a lot lower than their rating may fail to maintain their dielectric formation which may in turn result in increased leakage. Here's a thought. Could the whining be coming from an inductive filter before the capactors because of excessive leakage through the capacitors rather than because of high ESR? Would they benefit from re-forming? Regards, Peter Coghlan. > >> >> Christian > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 6 09:11:27 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:11:27 -0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: <03dc01d8030f$ad730a20$08591e60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Chapman > Sent: 06 January 2022 13:00 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators > > > One of the H744 regulators whines > > FWIW, none of mine are silent under load. If they're not being loaded (e.g. > on a test bench, with no dummy load, or if you have all the boards out) they > can whine excessively due to no minimum load. I was testing with a 1R resistor, so drawing 5A of the rated 25A. The other two H744s did not whine, but this one does. I can try a bigger load, I think the best I may be able to do is 10A, possibly 20A. > > > it seems higher than the expected values printed on the meter > > Beware cheap test equipment. $client has a few of these Chinese handheld > LC/RLC meters, they're wildly inaccurate on some parameters, including ESR > on large electrolytics. We've got a proper Gen-Rad RLC Digibridge in the shop > to compare against. We couldn't figure out why some of their tuned filter > stages were failing QC at a much higher rate than expected. They were off- > frequency because the cheap meters were giving consistently incorrect > measurements when trying to match capacitors. > My ESR meter is built from a design by Bob Parker. I got it from someone in Portugal (https://evbesrmeter.pt/), so I don't think it is a cheap Chinese one. > That said, it's not like replacing them with new will *hurt* -- it just might not > fix the whine. > > Thanks, > Jonathan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 6 09:13:04 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 15:13:04 -0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <01S881OM9BF48WXDCA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <01S881OM9BF48WXDCA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <03dd01d8030f$e81913e0$b84b3ba0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > via cctalk > Sent: 06 January 2022 12:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian > >> Corti via cctalk > >> Sent: 06 January 2022 10:02 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators > >> > >> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022, rob at jarratt.me.uk wrote: > >> > If I can't find 10V rated ones, then, generally up to what sort of > >> > voltage rating can I go? Of course, physical size will be a factor, > >> > but electrically can it affect operation of the regulator if the > >> > rated > > voltage is > >> too high? > >> > >> If you need to ask this, are you sure you want to do electronics repair? > > > > I am gradually learning. > > > > I'm slowly picking this sort of stuff up as I go along too. > > I think that asking questions like this is the right thing to do when we are not > sure about something and is not at all an indication that someone is > somehow not suited to the task. Quite the reverse in fact. > > If we don't do this sort of work ourselves, it's not going to be easy to get > someone else to do it and make sure it is done well for a > reasonable price. Any contemporary electronics repair outfit, assuming > one can be found, would probably recommend dumping the whole thing and > replacing it with a "modern" power supply. > > > > >> And what makes you think that you need to replace these caps at all? > > > > I appreciate that there is lots of bogus advice out there which suggests that > all capacitors need to be replaced before even starting to investigate the > cause of problems but I think Rob has demonstrated that he is trying to > figure out what is going on rather than just blindly replacing stuff. > > > > > One of the H744 regulators whines and I have been told it could be the > > ESR on these caps. I have measured the ESR on these particular ones > > (out of > > circuit) and it seems higher than the expected values printed on the > > meter and also the ESR is not stable, it fluctuates randomly. This > > suggests the cap is not in great condition. > > > > I guess from that the large capacitance of these units, they are probably > filtering 50Hz or 100Hz ripple and high ESR is probably going to lead to higher > than normal levels of ripple on the output which could possibly cause some > inductive component somewhere to buzz or whine. > > I'm not sure if it is easy to measure the ripple on the output or if it is specified > anywhere how much ripple can be tolerated before logic errors start to > become a problem. > > Maybe it would be good to replace the capacitors in just the unit which is > whining to begin with and see if it makes a difference? I will try this by using the caps from other H744s that don't whine. > > To address the original question, I think I read somewhere that electrolytic > capacitors that are used for voltages a lot lower than their rating may fail to > maintain their dielectric formation which may in turn result in increased > leakage. > > Here's a thought. Could the whining be coming from an inductive filter > before the capactors because of excessive leakage through the capacitors > rather than because of high ESR? Would they benefit from re-forming? I did re-form the capacitors first. They didn't seem to need much as I ran them at 10V with zero leakage current (i.e. not measurable). Maybe I need to run the reforming process a bit longer anyway? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > > > >> > >> Christian > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 6 09:14:36 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:14:36 -0500 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <7B62B0B9-F88F-4741-8C78-DC90FAE56CFF@shaw.ca> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> <7B62B0B9-F88F-4741-8C78-DC90FAE56CFF@shaw.ca> Message-ID: > On Jan 6, 2022, at 4:06 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2022-Jan-06, at 12:19 AM, Joshua Rice via cctech wrote: >> Not cost effective at nearly $10,000! I understand they're very rare, given they were only used for a few years in industry and they're clocking on 3/4 of a century old, but even then, that seems an order of magnitude or two off the real value. >> Actually, looking them up, doesn't seem they were used in much at all. Seems to have been a bit of a technological dead-end since core memory quickly superseded it with it's (relatively) cheap costs and (relative) ease of manufacturing. I imagine the US gov. probably used them somewhere, since they were a sucker for cutting edge technology of the time. >> Would be interesting to know how many hours it's got on it > > "Not cost effective" ? What does that mean in the arena of valuation of historic artifacts? > > No, they didn't go anywhere as a product and apparently only saw use in one machine. > > However, the 'pro' side of such a debate is that they were a very early attempt to produce a fast digital RAM memory specifically for use in Stored-Program Machines, at a time when memory was at the top of the list of problems in development of the first SPMs, and actually before any SPMs had been produced, and weren't a serial technology like drums and delays lines tortured into applicability for the task. Yes, for example in van Wijngaarden's 1948 course text "principles of electronic calculating machines", the Selectron is explained in detail (as a 4k bit device, which apparently was the original hope). It also mentions something like a Williams tube (not by that name, so perhaps it's not exactly that). The only other idea for a random-access RAM that it mentions is a rather vague notion that a crossbar of gas discharge elements could be used. That was later (1960) used as a display device, the famous plasma panel display invented by Don Bitzer et al.; not clear if it was ever actually used as a memory device. Core memory does not appear in that 1948 document, that's a later invention but indeed the one that ended up successful in practice. paul From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Thu Jan 6 09:45:09 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 09:45:09 -0600 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <8cebbc69-3b38-fb51-e905-68ddb7774a90@12bitsbest.com> There was also a 1K by 4 version of this tube. On 1/6/2022 3:03 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-Jan-06, at 12:19 AM, Joshua Rice via cctech wrote: >> Not cost effective at nearly $10,000! I understand they're very rare, given they were only used for a few years in industry and they're clocking on 3/4 of a century old, but even then, that seems an order of magnitude or two off the real value. >> Actually, looking them up, doesn't seem they were used in much at all. Seems to have been a bit of a technological dead-end since core memory quickly superseded it with it's (relatively) cheap costs and (relative) ease of manufacturing. I imagine the US gov. probably used them somewhere, since they were a sucker for cutting edge technology of the time. >> Would be interesting to know how many hours it's got on it > "Not cost effective" ? What does that mean in the arena of valuation of historic artifacts? > > No, they didn't go anywhere as a product and apparently only saw use in one machine. > > However, the 'pro' side of such a debate is that they were a very early attempt to produce a fast digital RAM memory specifically for use in Stored-Program Machines, at a time when memory was at the top of the list of problems in development of the first SPMs, and actually before any SPMs had been produced, and weren't a serial technology like drums and delays lines tortured into applicability for the task. > > They are wrapped up in the history of John VonN and the IAS machine, one of the most significant machines in computing history (arguably the most significant). > > There's always opinion and subjective valuation in assessments of history but if one is acquainted with what was going on in that period of 46-50, they are a very interesting and notable development attempt. > > > >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "pbirkel--- via cctalk" >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" >> Sent: Wednesday, 5 Jan, 2022 At 17:35 >> Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often >> Selectron Vacuum Tube: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174977901251 >> >> Really nice photo-shoot! I wonder what the back-story to this particular >> tube might be. >> >> I don't think that $16.18 shipping would be, um, adequate protection by any >> measure. >> Cheap, but not so sure about "cost-effective" . From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Thu Jan 6 09:45:09 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 09:45:09 -0600 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <8cebbc69-3b38-fb51-e905-68ddb7774a90@12bitsbest.com> There was also a 1K by 4 version of this tube. On 1/6/2022 3:03 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-Jan-06, at 12:19 AM, Joshua Rice via cctech wrote: >> Not cost effective at nearly $10,000! I understand they're very rare, given they were only used for a few years in industry and they're clocking on 3/4 of a century old, but even then, that seems an order of magnitude or two off the real value. >> Actually, looking them up, doesn't seem they were used in much at all. Seems to have been a bit of a technological dead-end since core memory quickly superseded it with it's (relatively) cheap costs and (relative) ease of manufacturing. I imagine the US gov. probably used them somewhere, since they were a sucker for cutting edge technology of the time. >> Would be interesting to know how many hours it's got on it > "Not cost effective" ? What does that mean in the arena of valuation of historic artifacts? > > No, they didn't go anywhere as a product and apparently only saw use in one machine. > > However, the 'pro' side of such a debate is that they were a very early attempt to produce a fast digital RAM memory specifically for use in Stored-Program Machines, at a time when memory was at the top of the list of problems in development of the first SPMs, and actually before any SPMs had been produced, and weren't a serial technology like drums and delays lines tortured into applicability for the task. > > They are wrapped up in the history of John VonN and the IAS machine, one of the most significant machines in computing history (arguably the most significant). > > There's always opinion and subjective valuation in assessments of history but if one is acquainted with what was going on in that period of 46-50, they are a very interesting and notable development attempt. > > > >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "pbirkel--- via cctalk" >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" >> Sent: Wednesday, 5 Jan, 2022 At 17:35 >> Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often >> Selectron Vacuum Tube: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174977901251 >> >> Really nice photo-shoot! I wonder what the back-story to this particular >> tube might be. >> >> I don't think that $16.18 shipping would be, um, adequate protection by any >> measure. >> Cheap, but not so sure about "cost-effective" . From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 6 09:50:00 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 09:50:00 -0600 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3538546b-4829-5d66-348f-f3d60c39f98b@pico-systems.com> On 1/6/22 2:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I think I may need to replace the two output capacitors in some of my H744 > regulators. These are screw terminal 6,000uF 10V parts. I have looked on > Mouser, Farnell and Digikey and there don't seem to be any available, and > any that are listed are really rather costly. > > > > Does anyone know where I might find some, preferably from a reputable > supplier. Note that I am in the UK. > > Mouser is a good place to find big caps (or at least used to be).? You might have to get "snap in" caps and solder wires to them, that style seems to be more available. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 6 11:41:18 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 09:41:18 -0800 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <474ed3be-97b4-623e-569f-ff0be2fb6e92@sydex.com> Perhaps even rarer were the EBAM tubes that CDC worked with during the 1970s. I recall seeing a 6' rack of a complete assembly sitting in a hallway at ADL around 1974. If CDC followed the dictates of management then, the unit was probably utterly demolsihed before being sold as scrap metal. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 11:46:24 2022 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:46:24 -0500 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <474ed3be-97b4-623e-569f-ff0be2fb6e92@sydex.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> <474ed3be-97b4-623e-569f-ff0be2fb6e92@sydex.com> Message-ID: Prototypes don't count. -- Will On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:41 PM Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > > > Perhaps even rarer were the EBAM tubes that CDC worked with during the > 1970s. I recall seeing a 6' rack of a complete assembly sitting in a > hallway at ADL around 1974. If CDC followed the dictates of management > then, the unit was probably utterly demolsihed before being sold as > scrap metal. > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 6 13:11:40 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:11:40 -0800 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> <474ed3be-97b4-623e-569f-ff0be2fb6e92@sydex.com> Message-ID: <779207ac-b4a8-c046-0cfc-123f26fe2ae9@sydex.com> On 1/6/22 10:17, William Donzelli wrote: > If you include prototypes, then you need to include ALL the prototypes > - even things made in single quantities that never worked. > > That is a HUGE amount of stuff that makes EBAM look gigantic. To be fair, EBAM received a not-insignificant amount of press coverage. What doomed it was the falling cost and increasing density of semiconductor memory. Good idea, wrong time. It was pitched in a few forward-looking responses to government RFPs. But then, so was a lot of other stuff. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 6 13:31:26 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 14:31:26 -0500 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <779207ac-b4a8-c046-0cfc-123f26fe2ae9@sydex.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> <474ed3be-97b4-623e-569f-ff0be2fb6e92@sydex.com> <779207ac-b4a8-c046-0cfc-123f26fe2ae9@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/6/22 10:17, William Donzelli wrote: >> If you include prototypes, then you need to include ALL the prototypes >> - even things made in single quantities that never worked. >> >> That is a HUGE amount of stuff that makes EBAM look gigantic. > > To be fair, EBAM received a not-insignificant amount of press coverage. > What doomed it was the falling cost and increasing density of > semiconductor memory. Good idea, wrong time. > > It was pitched in a few forward-looking responses to government RFPs. > But then, so was a lot of other stuff. So what is an EBAM tube? Google turns up very little; I found a reference in a 1977 textbook (courtesy Google Books) that makes it sound like a synonym for "Williams tube". Those were decades obsolete by then; so what were these things and why were they being considered in the days of not just semicondutor memory but also core memory? Selectrons are weird devices, but just like (nearly all) core memory they use coincidence addressing to keep the control logic complexity reasonable, a very significant consideration in the days of vacuum tube logic. And actually the addressing is even more clever so it scales with the 1/4th power of the memory size (same as core does if you put current switches at both ends of the X/Y wires). A 1948 discussion of memory technology concepts makes fascinating reading; it includes wild stuff like photographic film and paper marked by electric discharge, along with familiar stuff like drum and acoustic memory. But the drum discussion suggests that a drum might be spun at 60,000 rpm -- which would certainly do wonders for performance but it's puzzling where that dream came from. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 13:42:50 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 14:42:50 -0500 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <3538546b-4829-5d66-348f-f3d60c39f98b@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: It would be a lot easier to replace the large circular regulator if you're taking the shotgun approach, and much more likely that the regulator is a source of faults. and it's cheaper. For the h744, 45, 54. BUT measuring things is the best way if you can do it. Pull the values from the backplane, there are test points that you can measure from. Bill On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 2:30 PM Wayne S via cctech wrote: > So you want to replace capacitors just because they ?whine? ? > I?ll say that because you are learning, that is not good troubleshooting > practice. > Make a checklist of troubleshooting power supplies. > There are a lot of good youtube videos and other internet information on > how power supplies work, how to check them and repair them. There is danger > when working with power supplies. > When working on electrical equipment do you know about the ?working with > one hand in your pocket rule?? Doing this stuff, videos and reading, is not > overly time consuming and may save your life! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 6, 2022, at 07:50, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ?On 1/6/22 2:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > >> I think I may need to replace the two output capacitors in some of my > H744 > >> regulators. These are screw terminal 6,000uF 10V parts. I have looked on > >> Mouser, Farnell and Digikey and there don't seem to be any available, > and > >> any that are listed are really rather costly. > >> > >> > >> Does anyone know where I might find some, preferably from a reputable > >> supplier. Note that I am in the UK. > >> > >> > > > > Mouser is a good place to find big caps (or at least used to be). You > might have to get "snap in" caps and solder wires to them, that style seems > to be more available. > > > > Jon > > > From s101885 at outlook.com Thu Jan 6 17:40:01 2022 From: s101885 at outlook.com (Ryan Ottignon) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 23:40:01 +0000 Subject: What happened to Bill Whitson? Message-ID: Bill Whitson, the original ClassicCmp ListOp, has a surprisingly little amount of information available about him online. Does anyone know what happened to him after the late 90s? (If anyone has any contact information, that would be nice!) Ryan Ottignon From matt at 9track.net Thu Jan 6 18:04:39 2022 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 00:04:39 +0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: On 06/01/2022 12:59, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > That said, it's not like replacing them with new will *hurt* -- it just might not fix the whine. I suspect that it won't fix the problem. Slightly hijacking the thread here but hopefully in a semi-helpful way. I have two of these regulators, one from a BA11K and one from a TS11. Under the same test conditions the one from the TS11 produces a significantly louder whining noise than the one from the BA11K. Given that they are largely the same circuit as the H745 regulators and all the ones I have are silent in operation I find it hard to believe they are supposed to be like this. I used to have two more TS11 drives and they both exhibited the same behaviour. Seems to be a common problem. Now, for the one from the BA11K (quiet one) the output capacitors were completely open (0uF) so I had to replace them. Given that I had the new capacitors I decided to try them in the TS11 regulator to see if it would fix the whining noise. It made no difference. After some probing with an oscilloscope I found that between the two regulators there was a very different waveform on the emitter of Q2. Quiet regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ba11_q2e.png Noisy regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ts11_q2e.png The yellow trace is the emitter of Q2 (input of L1) and the cyan trace is the output of L1. Q2 seems to be switching partly on then fully on in the noisy regulator. it should of course be fully on or fully off as seen on the quiet regulator. Also the switching frequency seems to be lower. I tried testing/swapping a few parts between the two regulators, L1, Q2, Q3, E1. It started out reasonably logical and after several days descended into a unscientific mess of swapping anything and everything that could possibly be at fault. I got to the point where I had eliminated just about every component so I must have overlooked something. I was hoping to stumble upon the answer and then learn something from it but so far no luck. This project has been shelved for a while now. Regards, Matt From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Jan 6 19:03:32 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 01:03:32 +0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> My 2c. I am not familiar with a "whine" but certainly a "hum." Sometimes if a power supply has seen a lot of heavy load over its lifetime, the heat generated can begin to do things to the transformer. And once that heat has done its "thing" to the transformer, it stays that way. And no replacing external components will change the hum. However, there are some transformers with bolts and nuts that hold the laminations together. Sometimes they can be tightened to reduce the hum. I don?t know this PS specifically and whether it falls into this category or not. I don?t know if what you are hearing is transformer hum, but if it is, you may just have to live with it. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Matt Burke via cctalk Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 7:05 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators On 06/01/2022 12:59, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > That said, it's not like replacing them with new will *hurt* -- it just might not fix the whine. I suspect that it won't fix the problem. Slightly hijacking the thread here but hopefully in a semi-helpful way. I have two of these regulators, one from a BA11K and one from a TS11. Under the same test conditions the one from the TS11 produces a significantly louder whining noise than the one from the BA11K. Given that they are largely the same circuit as the H745 regulators and all the ones I have are silent in operation I find it hard to believe they are supposed to be like this. I used to have two more TS11 drives and they both exhibited the same behaviour. Seems to be a common problem. Now, for the one from the BA11K (quiet one) the output capacitors were completely open (0uF) so I had to replace them. Given that I had the new capacitors I decided to try them in the TS11 regulator to see if it would fix the whining noise. It made no difference. After some probing with an oscilloscope I found that between the two regulators there was a very different waveform on the emitter of Q2. Quiet regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ba11_q2e.png Noisy regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ts11_q2e.png The yellow trace is the emitter of Q2 (input of L1) and the cyan trace is the output of L1. Q2 seems to be switching partly on then fully on in the noisy regulator. it should of course be fully on or fully off as seen on the quiet regulator. Also the switching frequency seems to be lower. I tried testing/swapping a few parts between the two regulators, L1, Q2, Q3, E1. It started out reasonably logical and after several days descended into a unscientific mess of swapping anything and everything that could possibly be at fault. I got to the point where I had eliminated just about every component so I must have overlooked something. I was hoping to stumble upon the answer and then learn something from it but so far no luck. This project has been shelved for a while now. Regards, Matt From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Jan 6 19:28:44 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:28:44 -0800 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: On 2022-Jan-06, at 4:04 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > On 06/01/2022 12:59, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> That said, it's not like replacing them with new will *hurt* -- it just might not fix the whine. > > I suspect that it won't fix the problem. Slightly hijacking the thread > here but hopefully in a semi-helpful way. > > I have two of these regulators, one from a BA11K and one from a TS11. > Under the same test conditions the one from the TS11 produces a > significantly louder whining noise than the one from the BA11K. Given > that they are largely the same circuit as the H745 regulators and all > the ones I have are silent in operation I find it hard to believe they > are supposed to be like this. I used to have two more TS11 drives and > they both exhibited the same behaviour. Seems to be a common problem. > > Now, for the one from the BA11K (quiet one) the output capacitors were > completely open (0uF) so I had to replace them. Given that I had the new > capacitors I decided to try them in the TS11 regulator to see if it > would fix the whining noise. It made no difference. > > After some probing with an oscilloscope I found that between the two > regulators there was a very different waveform on the emitter of Q2. > > Quiet regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ba11_q2e.png > Noisy regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ts11_q2e.png > > The yellow trace is the emitter of Q2 (input of L1) and the cyan trace > is the output of L1. Q2 seems to be switching partly on then fully on in > the noisy regulator. it should of course be fully on or fully off as > seen on the quiet regulator. Also the switching frequency seems to be lower. The intermediate step voltage at Q2.E-L1.input is not Q2 partially on. It's D5 shutting off, as it would do when L1 has discharged and current is no longer flowing in it, and follows from the basic principles of a buck converter. Notice that the step is 5V, i.e. the output voltage. > I tried testing/swapping a few parts between the two regulators, L1, Q2, > Q3, E1. It started out reasonably logical and after several days > descended into a unscientific mess of swapping anything and everything > that could possibly be at fault. I got to the point where I had > eliminated just about every component so I must have overlooked > something. I was hoping to stumble upon the answer and then learn > something from it but so far no luck. This project has been shelved for > a while now. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 20:10:16 2022 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:10:16 -0700 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <8cebbc69-3b38-fb51-e905-68ddb7774a90@12bitsbest.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> <8cebbc69-3b38-fb51-e905-68ddb7774a90@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, 08:45 Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > There was also a 1K by 4 version of this tube. > I've never seen any info on a 1K*4 Selectron, but they weren't even able to make the 4K*1 work, and the only production tubes were 256*1. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 6 20:39:07 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:39:07 -0600 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: On 1/6/22 6:04 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > > Quiet regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ba11_q2e.png > Noisy regulator: http://www.9track.net/posts/h744/h744_ts11_q2e.png > > The yellow trace is the emitter of Q2 (input of L1) and the cyan trace > is the output of L1. Q2 seems to be switching partly on then fully on in > the noisy regulator. it should of course be fully on or fully off as > seen on the quiet regulator. Also the switching frequency seems to be lower. > Yes, the 2nd unit is running at 5 KHz, clearly explaining the noise.? Possibly there is a bad flyback diode, or something causing the different waveform. Jon From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 20:15:40 2022 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 19:15:40 -0700 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, 01:20 Joshua Rice via cctech wrote: > > Not cost effective at nearly $10,000! I understand they're very rare, > given they were only used for a few years in industry and they're > clocking on 3/4 of a century old, but even then, that seems an order of > magnitude or two off the real value. > The rarity wasn't that only one _model_ of computer used it. Only one _unit_ used it. It used 80 tubes at a cost of around $500 each, in mid-20th-century dollars. Given that they'd have needed some spares and replacements, the production run would have been more than 80 pieces, but I'd think it unlikely that more than 250 production units were ever made. If someone wants one and is able to purchase it for $10,000, I think they are very lucky. From matt at 9track.net Fri Jan 7 03:22:24 2022 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:22:24 +0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: <328cbe75-4021-4b2d-15a4-e63524d3cab0@9track.net> On 07/01/2022 02:39, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, the 2nd unit is running at 5 KHz, clearly explaining the noise.? > Possibly there is a bad flyback diode, or something causing the > different waveform. > That would be D5 I guess? I did do some checks in this area but I can't remember if I swapped that particular part with the other unit. I did a DC test out of circuit using the bench supply and it seemed to work with no leakage in the reverse direction. Perhaps it only fails when running at full speed? Regards, Matt From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Jan 7 08:25:25 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:25:25 -0600 Subject: Memory Tech you don't see very often In-Reply-To: References: <1e6401d8025a$a22b2b80$e6818280$@gmail.com> <1db21ef9.9d3ef.17e2e79100e.Webtop.86@btinternet.com> <8cebbc69-3b38-fb51-e905-68ddb7774a90@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <8804e5e0-6994-7f1b-c323-9643e06a214a@12bitsbest.com> According to www.rcaselectron.com RCA made 9, 256, 1024 and 4096 bit versions of the Selectron tube. I don't know if any of them other than the 256 bit made it into production. 4096 Bit Selectron Pics http://www.rcaselectron.com/sel4096.html (4 by 1024) 1024 Bit Selectron Pics http://www.rcaselectron.com/sel1024.html (2 by 512) 256 Bit Selectron Pics http://www.rcaselectron.com/sel256.html (2 by 128) 9 Bit Selectron Pics http://www.rcaselectron.com/sel9.html On 1/6/2022 8:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, 08:45 Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > > There was also a 1K by 4 version of this tube. > > > I've never seen any info on a 1K*4 Selectron, but they weren't even > able to make the 4K*1 work, and the only production tubes were 256*1. > From cube1 at charter.net Fri Jan 7 10:02:12 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 10:02:12 -0600 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On 1/6/2022 7:03 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > My 2c. I am not familiar with a "whine" but certainly a "hum." Sometimes if a power supply has seen a lot of heavy load over its lifetime, the heat generated can begin to do things to the transformer. And once that heat has done its "thing" to the transformer, it stays that way. And no replacing external components will change the hum. However, there are some transformers with bolts and nuts that hold the laminations together. Sometimes they can be tightened to reduce the hum. I don?t know this PS specifically and whether it falls into this category or not. > > I don?t know if what you are hearing is transformer hum, but if it is, you may just have to live with it. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos This does not fall "into this category". This is typically high frequency (in excess of 10KHz) whine, not 60 cycle, 120 cycle or even 400 cycle "hum". My experience with many PDP-11 machines going back to the mid 1970s, and those in my collection, is that this whine from the *switching* power supplies is very common. For some people, it may be above the frequency that they can hear. For me it is not (I could also hear burglar alarms in excess of 20KHz back in the day, though I doubt I could now, at age 70.) My *guess* is that it comes from the inductors in the switching circuit, and is *mechanical*, induced by the switching waveform, which in turn is dependent upon load. If I had one that was really bad, I'd be tempted to put on a glove for insulation and hold those to see if the mechanical pressure made any difference. JRJ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 7 14:21:49 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:21:49 -0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> Weirdly, the whine has disappeared. This is after I put the suspect capacitors back in. Because I had previously removed them for reforming, I wonder if one of them was not properly screwed in? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger via > cctalk > Sent: 07 January 2022 16:02 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators > > On 1/6/2022 7:03 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > My 2c. I am not familiar with a "whine" but certainly a "hum." Sometimes if > a power supply has seen a lot of heavy load over its lifetime, the heat > generated can begin to do things to the transformer. And once that heat has > done its "thing" to the transformer, it stays that way. And no replacing > external components will change the hum. However, there are some > transformers with bolts and nuts that hold the laminations together. > Sometimes they can be tightened to reduce the hum. I don?t know this PS > specifically and whether it falls into this category or not. > > > > I don?t know if what you are hearing is transformer hum, but if it is, you > may just have to live with it. > > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: > > https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos > > This does not fall "into this category". This is typically high frequency (in > excess of 10KHz) whine, not 60 cycle, 120 cycle or even > 400 cycle "hum". > > My experience with many PDP-11 machines going back to the mid 1970s, and > those in my collection, is that this whine from the *switching* power > supplies is very common. For some people, it may be above the frequency > that they can hear. For me it is not (I could also hear burglar alarms in excess > of 20KHz back in the day, though I doubt I could now, at age 70.) > > My *guess* is that it comes from the inductors in the switching circuit, and is > *mechanical*, induced by the switching waveform, which in turn is > dependent upon load. If I had one that was really bad, I'd be tempted to put > on a glove for insulation and hold those to see if the mechanical pressure > made any difference. > > JRJ From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 14:35:54 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:35:54 -0500 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9795684b-3419-6c8f-5579-501fe3787fe2@gmail.com> I never had this problem with an H744 power regulator, but once I had a horrible intermittent problem in the RK05 power supply where the caps were 'wafting in the breeze' of the fan. Metal fatigue had created almost microscopic cracks around the part of the land where the screws attached, causing a disk fault every week or so.? It was in? one of four drives and the only way I found it was to swap the drives one by one and wait, since the emerg signal was paralleled! I told the chief engineer that the problem was the same thing that caused planes to crash, and he suggested maybe the cargo door had fallen off!? (that puts it in 1972 since it was AA Flight 96 that had just happened!) Try reheating around the screws. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-07 15:21, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Weirdly, the whine has disappeared. This is after I put the suspect capacitors back in. Because I had previously removed them for reforming, I wonder if one of them was not properly screwed in? > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger via >> cctalk >> Sent: 07 January 2022 16:02 >> To:cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators >> >> On 1/6/2022 7:03 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >>> My 2c. I am not familiar with a "whine" but certainly a "hum." Sometimes if >> a power supply has seen a lot of heavy load over its lifetime, the heat >> generated can begin to do things to the transformer. And once that heat has >> done its "thing" to the transformer, it stays that way. And no replacing >> external components will change the hum. However, there are some >> transformers with bolts and nuts that hold the laminations together. >> Sometimes they can be tightened to reduce the hum. I don?t know this PS >> specifically and whether it falls into this category or not. >>> I don?t know if what you are hearing is transformer hum, but if it is, you >> may just have to live with it. >>> 73 Eugene W2HX >>> Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: >>> https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos >> This does not fall "into this category". This is typically high frequency (in >> excess of 10KHz) whine, not 60 cycle, 120 cycle or even >> 400 cycle "hum". >> >> My experience with many PDP-11 machines going back to the mid 1970s, and >> those in my collection, is that this whine from the *switching* power >> supplies is very common. For some people, it may be above the frequency >> that they can hear. For me it is not (I could also hear burglar alarms in excess >> of 20KHz back in the day, though I doubt I could now, at age 70.) >> >> My *guess* is that it comes from the inductors in the switching circuit, and is >> *mechanical*, induced by the switching waveform, which in turn is >> dependent upon load. If I had one that was really bad, I'd be tempted to put >> on a glove for insulation and hold those to see if the mechanical pressure >> made any difference. >> >> JRJ From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 7 16:33:16 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:33:16 -0600 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 1/7/22 2:21 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Weirdly, the whine has disappeared. This is after I put the suspect capacitors back in. Because I had previously removed them for reforming, I wonder if one of them was not properly screwed in? The terminal posts are aluminum, and can develop an oxide layer that prevents good contact. Removing and replacing them might improve the contact. Jon From lists at glitchwrks.com Fri Jan 7 17:37:24 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 23:37:24 +0000 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > The terminal posts are aluminum, and can develop an oxide > layer that prevents good contact. > > Removing and replacing them might improve the contact. I have experienced this personally with TO-3 regulators, too. I had a bunch of triple voltage Power One linear supplies that would intermittently brownout, had to chase the threads in the TO-3 sockets (which served as a case terminal connection) and put toothed washers under the screws to bond the TO-3 aluminum case. Thanks, Jonathan From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Jan 7 18:41:30 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 18:41:30 -0600 Subject: DEC RX01 Parts In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have acquired an RX01 dual drive set from a VAX780 (RX01W-VA). I am converting it to fit in my PDP-8 rack. I removed the VAX cabinet frame. I have the front panel but I need the following parts: IMC PEWEE BOXER 80mm fan PWS2107FL-1000 cooling fan (this unit has an individual fan for each drive and one is bad.). Dual Drive Front Plate (#74-12853-00). This is the black metal plate with the ridges in it that the front panel mounts to. RX8E Controller The drives came with a single diskette so I need some formatted diskettes also. I don't know if the circuit boards are compatible with the RX8E Controller. The Read/Write Control Board is labeled 243A and the Floppy Disk Control Board is labeled 245A. I don't have any other 8" floppy systems to format the disks in. Thanks, Mike From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 8 07:26:41 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 13:26:41 -0000 Subject: Mate-n-lok connector for H744 Regulator Message-ID: <009c01d80493$5f761f30$1e625d90$@ntlworld.com> To make testing of the H744 a bit easier I would like to try to make up some connectors for the mate-n-lok connector to make it easier to connect power and load. I know the H744 uses a mate-n-lok connector, but there seem to be a lot of different types and I don't seem to be able to find a type that would work. Does anyone know what the correct one is? Thanks Rob From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 07:36:31 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:36:31 -0500 Subject: Mate-n-lok connector for H744 Regulator In-Reply-To: <009c01d80493$5f761f30$1e625d90$@ntlworld.com> References: <009c01d80493$5f761f30$1e625d90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002301d80494$bf75d0f0$3e6172d0$@gmail.com> See the bottom of: https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_standard_modular_regulators I believe that you'll want one or more of these: https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/1/1-48046 0-0 https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/1/1-48045 9-0 Note that both have a minimum order :-<. As for pins: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/60620-1?qs=pn%2Fzyis3Xj HkDeV60Xt%252Btg%3D%3D https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity-AMP/60619-1?qs=sGAEpiMZ ZMueQxo7L%2FBPyOx7s9t3UY8b -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 8:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Mate-n-lok connector for H744 Regulator To make testing of the H744 a bit easier I would like to try to make up some connectors for the mate-n-lok connector to make it easier to connect power and load. I know the H744 uses a mate-n-lok connector, but there seem to be a lot of different types and I don't seem to be able to find a type that would work. Does anyone know what the correct one is? Thanks Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 8 07:41:22 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:41:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mate-n-lok connector for H744 Regulator Message-ID: <20220108134122.CEF3618C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > Does anyone know what the correct one is? This: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_standard_modular_regulators has all the details. (If anyone knows of any PDP-11 hardware or UNIX information which is not on the CHWiki - I'm not interested in DEC PDP-11 software, but if someone would like to take that on, that would be great - please let me know.) Noel From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Jan 8 07:44:47 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 13:44:47 +0000 Subject: Mate-n-lok connector for H744 Regulator In-Reply-To: <002301d80494$bf75d0f0$3e6172d0$@gmail.com> References: <009c01d80493$5f761f30$1e625d90$@ntlworld.com> <002301d80494$bf75d0f0$3e6172d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Note that both have a minimum order :-<. As for pins: If folks don't want to deal with minimums, we can make up cables with the correct connector, we stock the housings, crimps, and have the correct TE crimp tool for them. That said, connectorpeople.com are good to deal with, we use them for weird connectors. Their checkout process is...not Web 2.0 :) Thanks, Jonathan From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 09:33:35 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 10:33:35 -0500 Subject: Mate-n-lok connector for H744 Regulator In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d80493$5f761f30$1e625d90$@ntlworld.com> <002301d80494$bf75d0f0$3e6172d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a cabinet full of 'parts' regulators if anyone is local to landenberg, pa (btwn phila/baltimore) and would like one to use for parts, selling for a reasonable cost (make offer) or trade. Contact me privately through vintagecomputer.net. I also have a limited supply of NOS Sprague caps for these. I probably have more 744s than anything else. Bill On Sat, Jan 8, 2022, 8:54 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Note that both have a minimum order :-<. As for pins: > > If folks don't want to deal with minimums, we can make up cables with the > correct connector, we stock the housings, crimps, and have the correct TE > crimp tool for them. > > That said, connectorpeople.com are good to deal with, we use them for > weird connectors. Their checkout process is...not Web 2.0 :) > > Thanks, > Jonathan > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jan 8 10:36:07 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 10:36:07 -0600 Subject: Source for replacement caps in H744 regulators In-Reply-To: <9795684b-3419-6c8f-5579-501fe3787fe2@gmail.com> References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> <9795684b-3419-6c8f-5579-501fe3787fe2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <11f8f63c-6237-4d48-7ea3-08e2038cf8ca@charter.net> On 1/7/2022 2:35 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > I told the chief engineer that the problem was the same thing that > caused planes to crash, and he suggested maybe the cargo door had fallen > off!? (that puts it in 1972 since it was AA Flight 96 that had just > happened!) > My uncle worked for McDonnell Douglass as an engineer and my dad told me that he got called back to work on that DC 10 door issue. JRJ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 9 04:56:16 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 05:56:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 780 on eBay Message-ID: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > This: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 > ... > Anyway I fully expect it to go ... for a _lot_ more than the opening price. Much to my surprise, it didn't sell at all (although a number of other lots, likely from this machine, did.) I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important in the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge impact on UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was centered on the VAX). Noel From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sun Jan 9 08:17:25 2022 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 14:17:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <874454217.464135.1641737845571@mail.yahoo.com> >I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 >can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important in >the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge impact on >UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was >centered on the VAX). Noel, maybethis is also related to the bare size of an 11/780 (any peripherals excluded) compared to a 11/70 which can be handled a bit easier when it comes to moving and storing it somewhere. And then we had these recent discussions about powering an 11/780 for those who would actually like to do something with it rather than just storing it. I think that an 11/70 is more convenient in practical terms for a lot of enthousiasts out there. Cheers, Piere From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 09:10:17 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:10:17 +0800 Subject: The Portable C Compiler (pcc) Message-ID: The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as "pcc") had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody please point me to this original implementation? There is a modern C99 version of this compiler maintained by Anders Magnusson at: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ Unfortunately in this version the Nova architecture is no longer supported and won't build correctly although associated files are still in the source hierarchy. I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. Thanks Tom From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Jan 9 09:36:25 2022 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 09:36:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Portable C Compiler (pcc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1463591580.2639203.1641742585376@email.ionos.com> > On 01/09/2022 9:10 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > > The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as "pcc") > had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody please > point me to this original implementation? > > There is a modern C99 version of this compiler maintained by Anders > Magnusson at: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ > > Unfortunately in this version the Nova architecture is no longer supported > and won't build correctly although associated files are still in the source > hierarchy. > > I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. > > Thanks > Tom Have you contacted the author and asked him? I suspect he has the original that he worked from. Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 9 09:55:07 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 10:55:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Portable C Compiler (pcc) Message-ID: <20220109155507.128C818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tom Hunter > The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as > "pcc") had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody > please point me to this original implementation? > ... > I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. Of PCC, or the Nova version? The _oriinal_ PCC, released to the world in V7, is there: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/mip https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/pcc https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/doc/porttour That one is dated 1979. I have a slightly later version, from 1982 or so, which is the 68K one done at MIT. Not sure if either of those is any use to you, though. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 9 10:38:59 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 10:38:59 -0600 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <874454217.464135.1641737845571@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <874454217.464135.1641737845571@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1d49654a-b419-5c99-0191-39ba76205ce9@pico-systems.com> On 1/9/22 8:17 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >> I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 >> can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important in >> the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge impact on >> UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was >> centered on the VAX). > Noel, maybethis is also related to the bare size of an 11/780 (any peripherals excluded) Right, you can run an 11/70 from a regular wall socket, but the /780 needs 3-phase, and consumes a LOT more power.? I think you could squeeze a usable 11/70 into a single rack with modern peripherals, but No WAY for a /780.? But, yes, I'm also surprised it didn't sell. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 12:05:16 2022 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 10:05:16 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 2:56 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > This: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 > > ... > > Anyway I fully expect it to go ... for a _lot_ more than the opening > price. > > Much to my surprise, it didn't sell at all (although a number of other > lots, > likely from this machine, did.) > > I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 > can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important > in > the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge > impact on > UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was > centered on the VAX). > As others have mentioned, power is one concern, but my guess is this: No blinkenlights. It's not exciting looking. This tracks for PDP-11s (and 8's!) as well. No one pays big money for 11/04, 11/34, 11/44 or LSI-11 systems (though prices are creeping up like everything else) but 11/05, 11/40, 11/70, etc. sell for huge amounts every time. There's an 11/70 front panel at over $500 on eBay right now with two days left, it'll probably sell for $2500. - Josh > > Noel > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 9 16:04:20 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 17:04:20 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory Message-ID: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, -15, and +5. On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? Thoughts? C (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.) From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 16:48:28 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 17:48:28 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> References: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <21a849fe-b825-5488-d478-c245ccf792eb@gmail.com> I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC.? There were two versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used +20V three-wire memory. The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and there was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a module in that was not wired for it. I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of the 11/05 -/10 I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done exactly that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed to some unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I > think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be > shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone > have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? > > Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a > 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as > it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power > supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, > -15, and +5. > > On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which > systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? > > Thoughts? > C > > (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and > -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could > generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.) From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 9 18:57:20 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 19:57:20 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <21a849fe-b825-5488-d478-c245ccf792eb@gmail.com> References: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> <21a849fe-b825-5488-d478-c245ccf792eb@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07aba47a-3dc4-284b-23d5-886e060eeb30@alembic.crystel.com> Probably. It's a 1973 version, the DD11-B is a MUD backplane, but it seems to only have power plugs for +5,+15,-15. Looking at the MUD specs I see there are backplane pins assigned for +20 and -5 so I might be able to cobble something together. That's one of the fun things about Unibus: There were so many different types that there was no guarantee that anything would work in anything. I know this one worked with an RX11 because that's what I used 30 years ago. Would it work with an RX21? Maybe. Maybe not. Note: I did check the DD11 and sure enough all of the DMA grant wires are factory jumpered. I did remove the wire from one of them so I can use either a RL11 or an RX21 but in the meantime I have a G7273 in there along with the knucklebusters in the other slots) Getting this MM11-DP to work might take a fair bit of thought. I'm guessing that the DD11-F is significantly different from the DD11-B? And the big question: What memories (if any) will work in a DD11-B equipped pdp11/10? C On 1/9/2022 5:48 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC.? There were two > versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used > +20V three-wire memory. > > The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and there > was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a module in that > was not wired for it. > > I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of the > 11/05 -/10 > > I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done exactly > that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed to some > unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:? TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I >> think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be >> shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone >> have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? >> >> Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a >> 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as >> it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power >> supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, >> -15, and +5. >> >> On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which >> systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? >> >> Thoughts? >> C >> >> (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and >> -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could >> generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.) From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 19:00:37 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:00:37 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <07aba47a-3dc4-284b-23d5-886e060eeb30@alembic.crystel.com> References: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> <21a849fe-b825-5488-d478-c245ccf792eb@gmail.com> <07aba47a-3dc4-284b-23d5-886e060eeb30@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry, on the memories, I went to look at my old notebook form that era, but it seems some pages have fallen out over time :-) I think a friend has an 11/05 or 10, I will ask him for its configuration and see if that will help. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-01-09 19:57, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Probably. It's a 1973 version, the DD11-B is a MUD backplane, but it > seems to only have power plugs for +5,+15,-15. Looking at the MUD > specs I see there are backplane pins assigned for +20 and -5 so I > might be able to cobble something together. > > That's one of the fun things about Unibus: There were so many > different types that there was no guarantee that anything would work > in anything. I know this one worked with an RX11 because that's what I > used 30 years ago. Would it work with an RX21? Maybe. Maybe not. > > Note: I did check the DD11 and sure enough all of the DMA grant wires > are factory jumpered. I did remove the wire from one of them so I can > use either a RL11 or an RX21 but in the meantime I have a G7273 in > there along with the knucklebusters in the other slots) > > Getting this MM11-DP to work might take a fair bit of thought. I'm > guessing that the DD11-F is significantly different from the DD11-B? > > And the big question: What memories (if any) will work in a DD11-B > equipped pdp11/10? > > C > > On 1/9/2022 5:48 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC.? There were two >> versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used >> +20V three-wire memory. >> >> The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and >> there was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a >> module in that was not wired for it. >> >> I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of >> the 11/05 -/10 >> >> I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done >> exactly that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed >> to some unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> >> On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I >>> think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may >>> be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does >>> anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory >>> board? >>> >>> Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a >>> 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B >>> as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the >>> power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has >>> +15, -15, and +5. >>> >>> On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which >>> systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> C >>> >>> (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and >>> -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could >>> generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.) From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 9 19:17:56 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:17:56 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: References: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> <21a849fe-b825-5488-d478-c245ccf792eb@gmail.com> <07aba47a-3dc4-284b-23d5-886e060eeb30@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <27012138-765f-06e4-199a-1eb0efba22a1@alembic.crystel.com> Worst case I guess I could put a broken MS11-PL board in and set it for 16k start. It's got bad memory chips on it but I think the first 16k were good. And as a bonus it can work in both a +15 *AND* a +12 volt Unibus (yeah, the 11/24 used +12 on the +15 lines. No idea what was wrong with DEC) Oh yeah, the first 4 slots in an 11/24 had A/B as NOT MUD but were EUB (extended Unibus with 22 bit addressing for the KT24 MMU). The CDEF slots were SPC, so you had to have a 7273 in each of them or a special memory card. Don't know what would happen if you plugged a RL11 or other hex height card into one of those slots, probably blow everything up. I think I prefer Q Bus. Although they managed to make that a mess with the Q/CD slots as well.... C On 1/9/2022 8:00 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > I'm sorry, on the memories, I went to look at my old notebook form that > era, but it seems some pages have fallen out over time :-) > > I think a friend has an 11/05 or 10, I will ask him for its > configuration and see if that will help. > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:? TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2022-01-09 19:57, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Probably. It's a 1973 version, the DD11-B is a MUD backplane, but it >> seems to only have power plugs for +5,+15,-15. Looking at the MUD >> specs I see there are backplane pins assigned for +20 and -5 so I >> might be able to cobble something together. >> >> That's one of the fun things about Unibus: There were so many >> different types that there was no guarantee that anything would work >> in anything. I know this one worked with an RX11 because that's what I >> used 30 years ago. Would it work with an RX21? Maybe. Maybe not. >> >> Note: I did check the DD11 and sure enough all of the DMA grant wires >> are factory jumpered. I did remove the wire from one of them so I can >> use either a RL11 or an RX21 but in the meantime I have a G7273 in >> there along with the knucklebusters in the other slots) >> >> Getting this MM11-DP to work might take a fair bit of thought. I'm >> guessing that the DD11-F is significantly different from the DD11-B? >> >> And the big question: What memories (if any) will work in a DD11-B >> equipped pdp11/10? >> >> C >> >> On 1/9/2022 5:48 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>> I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC.? There were two >>> versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used >>> +20V three-wire memory. >>> >>> The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and >>> there was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a >>> module in that was not wired for it. >>> >>> I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of >>> the 11/05 -/10 >>> >>> I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done >>> exactly that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed >>> to some unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Nigel >>> >>> >>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>> Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>> I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I >>>> think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may >>>> be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does >>>> anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory >>>> board? >>>> >>>> Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a >>>> 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B >>>> as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the >>>> power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has >>>> +15, -15, and +5. >>>> >>>> On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which >>>> systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> C >>>> >>>> (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and >>>> -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could >>>> generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 9 19:40:47 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:40:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plessy core memory Message-ID: <20220110014047.C4AF618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line > for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or > anything like that for this kind of memory board? I've got a Plessey core memory manual somewhere, but I can't find it, so I don't know if it's the one you are looking for. I got it from Paul Birkel; it was a duplicate, and he scanned his and sent the scan off, but I don't think it made it online. > Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 > from 16kw to 32kw of memory? It all depends on what kind of -11/10 you have. If yours is in a 5-1/4" box, you can't plug a DEC memory card into the SPC slots that some of the CPU-holding backplane versions have because DEC memories (other than the ones like the MM11-L and -U, which are multi-board core systems that require custom backplanes) all require MUD slots, not SPC. All of the CPU backplanes on that machine are for a _specific_ kind of core memory (MM11-L or MM11-U), see here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05 There are I think some third-party memories which can be used (Dataram, maybe?) but I don't have time to go into them. If you have a 10-1/2" box, you can mount a MUD backplane - but you might still have an issue because the older BA11-D boxes use the old 9-pin power connectors, and the MUD backplanes (DD11-C, -D, etc) all use the newer 15-pin ones. (Again, there are some oddball ones, and again, I don't have time to go into them.) If you're lucky enough to have one of the ones that will take a MUD backplane, an MS11-E/F/H/J: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11_32KB_MOS_memory would be an option. > On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems > even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? The later /05's, /40's and /45's were the first ones to provide +20V, for the then-new MM11-U. On machines which took H744 'brick's, the _later_ harnesses could take a H754 +20V, -5V regulator 'brick'. Alternatively, _some_ BA11-L's (used for the /04 and /34) had the right version of H777: https://gunkies.org/wiki/H777_Power_Supply to provide +20V. Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 9 20:06:21 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 21:06:21 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <20220110014047.C4AF618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220110014047.C4AF618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <61e3a1a4-97ca-6f97-02c5-9d014e5c1d41@alembic.crystel.com> > If you have a 10-1/2" box, you can mount a MUD backplane - but you might > still have an issue because the older BA11-D boxes use the old 9-pin power > connectors, and the MUD backplanes (DD11-C, -D, etc) all use the newer 15-pin > ones. There we go. I have an 11/05 in a BA11-D box with a DD11-B expansion backplane with a 9 pin power plug sourcing +15, -15, +5. So is the DD11-B a MUD backplane? If not, what is it? > The later /05's, /40's and /45's were the first ones to provide +20V, for the > then-new MM11-U. On machines which took H744 'brick's, the _later_ harnesses > could take a H754 +20V, -5V regulator 'brick'. Alternatively, _some_ BA11-L's > (used for the /04 and /34) had the right version of H777: Hm. So I could get the power for the +20/-5 by replacing the 744 with a 754 and wiring up my own harness. However that would have two problems: 1) I'd be low on +5 for things like an RL11 controller. 2) I don't know if the DD11-B uses the 20 volt and -5 volt lines for something else. This is so much fun! C From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 9 20:26:11 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 21:26:11 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <20220110014047.C4AF618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220110014047.C4AF618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <36e9891e-d7ab-3a34-57ef-9c203f93d724@alembic.crystel.com> Hm. So the DD11-B backplane does not appear to be SPC/MUD. Instead it seems to handle 4 SPC devices along with a DF11 "communication line adapter" in the middle AB slots. Oi. That brings up an interesting question: How did this system ever work in the first place? I know I ran it with two of these Plessy cards and a RX01 controller but now that I look at it that would be impossible as both were hex cards and both could never fit in a 4 slot backplane with enough space for a quad spc Maybe it did only run with 16kw of memory. Or maybe I had a 9 slot backplane in there, but I don't remember getting rid of one. Hm. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 9 20:47:10 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:47:10 -0600 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> References: <21b149ff-60ae-b0be-acab-6990b4b27047@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/9/22 4:04 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One > problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a > Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some > reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or > anything like that for this kind of memory board? Check for Tantalum capacitors on the -15V.? These often fail after a period of not being powered and then having power applied suddenly. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 9 21:02:41 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 22:02:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plessy core memory Message-ID: <20220110030241.6089518C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > the DD11-B is a MUD backplane No, it's SPC; other sources, e.g. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/DD11.shtml agree. So if you have a DD11-B, you must have a BA11-D, with the 9-pin power plugs. The best thing to do is get a DD11-C or -D, and build an adapter cable to go from a 9-pin male (shell; female pins) to a 15-pin female (shell; male pins), so you don't have to mess with the harness. Part numbers here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors Then you can plug in any memory you've got the right voltages for; the MS11-E takes + and -15V (in addition to +5V, of course). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 9 21:10:00 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 22:10:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plessy core memory Message-ID: <20220110031000.115F018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > an adapter cable to go from a 9-pin male (shell; female pins) to a > 15-pin female (shell; male pins) Sigh, shouldn't try to type when I'm this tired. Female 9-pin (to plug into the BA11-D) to male 15-pin (for the DD11-C/D to plug into). Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 9 21:59:10 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 22:59:10 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <20220110031000.115F018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220110031000.115F018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <833723fc-5d43-8eeb-028b-aa3e07e26c4d@alembic.crystel.com> > Sigh, shouldn't try to type when I'm this tired. Female 9-pin (to plug into > the BA11-D) to male 15-pin (for the DD11-C/D to plug into). *nod* I'll put the system aside again for awhile. But if I come across a DD11-C or D I'll go back to work on it. In the "Go to Unibus hell" category I DO have a DA11-F Unibus window. It has the 9 pin power plug and could go in this box. More horrifying, it can map a portion of one Unibus onto another so in theory I could plug it in, wire into my pdp11/24's Unibus, and map the memory from there onto the 11/05, then boot RT11. Hm. I wonder if I could then map over the I/O page and access the RL11 on the 24. And for real fun what would happen if I enabled the KT24 Unibus memory map..... C From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Jan 10 02:34:04 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 16:34:04 +0800 Subject: The Portable C Compiler (pcc) In-Reply-To: <1463591580.2639203.1641742585376@email.ionos.com> References: <1463591580.2639203.1641742585376@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: I have tried to get in touch with Anders Magnusson, but got no reply yet. Tom On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 11:36 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 01/09/2022 9:10 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as "pcc") > > had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody please > > point me to this original implementation? > > > > There is a modern C99 version of this compiler maintained by Anders > > Magnusson at: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ > > > > Unfortunately in this version the Nova architecture is no longer > supported > > and won't build correctly although associated files are still in the > source > > hierarchy. > > > > I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. > > > > Thanks > > Tom > > Have you contacted the author and asked him? I suspect he has the > original that he worked from. > > Will > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Jan 10 03:59:13 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:59:13 +0800 Subject: The Portable C Compiler (pcc) In-Reply-To: References: <1463591580.2639203.1641742585376@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: I have managed to build the latest version of Anders Magnusson's PCC. It won't build out of the box and requires code and Makefile changes. It emits valid looking Nova assembly. Unfortunately it needs a machine support library which is not included to do function prolog, epilog, shift operators, multiplications, conversions, some of the assignments and indirections. There is an old README which provides sample implementations which don't match the code generated by the compiler. With some reasonable effort I think the bare-bones Nova support could be made to work properly (without any target OS support). It would be nice to be able to do some low-level work in C rather than doing everything in assembly. Tom On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 4:34 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > I have tried to get in touch with Anders Magnusson, but got no reply yet. > > Tom > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 11:36 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > On 01/09/2022 9:10 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as >> "pcc") >> > had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody please >> > point me to this original implementation? >> > >> > There is a modern C99 version of this compiler maintained by Anders >> > Magnusson at: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ >> > >> > Unfortunately in this version the Nova architecture is no longer >> supported >> > and won't build correctly although associated files are still in the >> source >> > hierarchy. >> > >> > I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. >> > >> > Thanks >> > Tom >> >> Have you contacted the author and asked him? I suspect he has the >> original that he worked from. >> >> Will >> > From jay-cctalk0092 at toaster.com Mon Jan 10 09:46:42 2022 From: jay-cctalk0092 at toaster.com (Jay Logue) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 07:46:42 -0800 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <833723fc-5d43-8eeb-028b-aa3e07e26c4d@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220110031000.115F018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <833723fc-5d43-8eeb-028b-aa3e07e26c4d@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20220110154649.68D412736C@mx1.ezwind.net> On 1/9/2022 7:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > *nod* I'll put the system aside again for awhile. But if I come across > a DD11-C or D I'll go back to work on it. I understand your frustration, as I've spent the better part of a year acquiring and fixing an ME11-L and associated board sets trying to get my short-box 11/05 up to a full compliment of memory. Perhaps you've already considered this, but an alternative that just makes the problem "go away" is to get yourself a Unibone.? Not period correct (and not core, which is what motivates me), but super useful and can emulate as much memory as you need. --Jay From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 10 10:59:32 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:59:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plessy core memory Message-ID: <20220110165932.A55C618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > I'm guessing that the DD11-F is significantly different from the DD11-B? I assume theat "DD11-F" is a typo; there is, AFAIK, no DD11-F, and a Web search revealeddidn't turn anything up. (There are DD11-CF and -CK backplanes, as well as -DF and -DK, but the -CF and -CK differ only in power harness length.) > the 11/24 used +12 on the +15 lines. No idea what was wrong with DEC The: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11-M_MOS_memory I'm guessing it used the parts that the IC vendors could provide. > Don't know what would happen if you plugged a RL11 or other hex height > card into one of those slots, probably blow everything up. Not sure. Per: https://gunkies.org/wiki/Modified_UNIBUS_Device#Pinout https://gunkies.org/wiki/Extended_UNIBUS#Pinout These are _some_ of the MUD/EUB pin clashes: Pin EUB MUD AN1 - A21 - Parity P1 AP1 - A20 - Parity P0 BE1 - A19 - Internal SSYN BE2 - A18 - Parity Detect I don't think those would harm anything. Not sure about power pins - and have no incentive to research it, as I have no need/interest in trying it. > I know I ran it with two of these Plessy cards and a RX01 controller but > now that I look at it that would be impossible as both were hex cards Maybe Plessey designed them to go in a DD11-B? I know I've seen other third-party cards that would go in oddball slots. > and both could never fit in a 4 slot backplane with enough space for a > quad spc Why not? The two hexes in slots 2&3, the quad in 1 or 4. > a DA11-F Unibus window Wow; never heard of those. I'll have to do a CHWiki page for them. Luckily, the maint manual is online. There's also a DA11-B. > what would happen if I enabled the KT24 Unibus memory map..... All that does is allow DMA devices on the -11/24's UNIBUS access to the entire main memory: https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/24#System_bus_structure So if you hooked up an -11/10 to an -11/24 with a DA11-F, then with the UNIBUS Map on, the -11/10's CPU and/or DMA devices would have access to the entire EUB memory via the 24's UNIBUS Map, is all. > This is so much fun! That _is_ why we collect old computers! ;-) Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 10 13:43:08 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:43:08 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <20220110154649.68D412736C@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20220110031000.115F018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <833723fc-5d43-8eeb-028b-aa3e07e26c4d@alembic.crystel.com> <20220110154649.68D412736C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4719db6f-098e-4a4f-b18b-ad8d0e941ae8@alembic.crystel.com> Hm. That is an idea. Technically I'm just wanting to get the thing working to see if it works, so a Unibone would be reasonable. Now where do I buy one/a kit/whatever..... C On 1/10/2022 10:46 AM, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: > On 1/9/2022 7:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> *nod* I'll put the system aside again for awhile. But if I come across >> a DD11-C or D I'll go back to work on it. > > I understand your frustration, as I've spent the better part of a year > acquiring and fixing an ME11-L and associated board sets trying to get > my short-box 11/05 up to a full compliment of memory. > > Perhaps you've already considered this, but an alternative that just > makes the problem "go away" is to get yourself a Unibone.? Not period > correct (and not core, which is what motivates me), but super useful and > can emulate as much memory as you need. > > --Jay > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Jan 10 13:49:59 2022 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:49:59 -0500 Subject: Plessy core memory In-Reply-To: <4719db6f-098e-4a4f-b18b-ad8d0e941ae8@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220110031000.115F018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <833723fc-5d43-8eeb-028b-aa3e07e26c4d@alembic.crystel.com> <20220110154649.68D412736C@mx1.ezwind.net> <4719db6f-098e-4a4f-b18b-ad8d0e941ae8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Hi, I have Joerg's Unibone bare boards available (and others listed at https://retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boardinventory#dec_digital_boards_designed_by_joerg_hoppe). Feel free to contact me privately if interested. Thanks, Todd On 1/10/2022 2:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hm. That is an idea. Technically I'm just wanting to get the thing > working to see if it works, so a Unibone would be reasonable. Now > where do I buy one/a kit/whatever..... > > C > > > On 1/10/2022 10:46 AM, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/9/2022 7:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> *nod* I'll put the system aside again for awhile. But if I come >>> across a DD11-C or D I'll go back to work on it. >> >> I understand your frustration, as I've spent the better part of a >> year acquiring and fixing an ME11-L and associated board sets trying >> to get my short-box 11/05 up to a full compliment of memory. >> >> Perhaps you've already considered this, but an alternative that just >> makes the problem "go away" is to get yourself a Unibone. Not period >> correct (and not core, which is what motivates me), but super useful >> and can emulate as much memory as you need. >> >> --Jay >> From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Jan 10 17:22:13 2022 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:22:13 -0600 Subject: Plessy core memory - UNIBOne Info In-Reply-To: <4719db6f-098e-4a4f-b18b-ad8d0e941ae8@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220110031000.115F018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <833723fc-5d43-8eeb-028b-aa3e07e26c4d@alembic.crystel.com> <20220110154649.68D412736C@mx1.ezwind.net> <4719db6f-098e-4a4f-b18b-ad8d0e941ae8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <863fd79c-9fd6-de2b-fcc5-9ce8edb70293@thereinhardts.org> You can contact Joerg at his site http://retrocmp.com/contact? For email see the UNIBone - Get One Page http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone/283-unibone-getting-one A fellow on the VCF DEC forum tried to contact Joerg about a UNIBone recently and said he had better luck using the contact page on the web site.? You can also take a look a the Google Group for the UNIBone and the QBone (QBus version). If you're not phased by CPL programming and surface mount IC then I'd say go for the board from Todd (I've bought boards from him before, he's good).? If not then you might want a kit from Joerg. The Get One page lists kits for ?170 or assembled for ?260.? In either case you have to supply your own Beaglebone Black though Joerg might still have some for ?60.? I bought an assembled QBone and then later two QBone kits form Joerg.? His work is also good. I just finished one QBone kit (assembly - testing is to come) and it went well but the kit board (both QBone and UNIBone) come with all SMD items installed and the two CPL's programmed so is mostly easy through-hole soldering.? The trickiest part is the connection for the BBB. Here are the build instructions - http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone/286-unibone-building -- John H. Reinhardt On 1/10/2022 1:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hm. That is an idea. Technically I'm just wanting to get the thing working to see if it works, so a Unibone would be reasonable. Now where do I buy one/a kit/whatever..... > > C > > > On 1/10/2022 10:46 AM, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/9/2022 7:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> *nod* I'll put the system aside again for awhile. But if I come across a DD11-C or D I'll go back to work on it. >> >> I understand your frustration, as I've spent the better part of a year acquiring and fixing an ME11-L and associated board sets trying to get my short-box 11/05 up to a full compliment of memory. >> >> Perhaps you've already considered this, but an alternative that just makes the problem "go away" is to get yourself a Unibone. Not period correct (and not core, which is what motivates me), but super useful and can emulate as much memory as you need. >> >> --Jay >> From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jan 11 00:04:33 2022 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:04:33 -0800 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug Message-ID: Hi, I'm trying to remember the name (and some information about) a past security bug, for an article. Somewhere between 4 and 6 years ago (I think), there was a fairly major security bug reported (probably in Linux, or in SSH code, but something widely used). IIRC, the bug was a single line that called a function (possibly along the lines of CredentialsCheck), and may have involved a bit-wise or (or and) instead of a logical one. It may have been that either the routine wasn't getting called when it should, or that the programmer misinterpreted what the return value meant. Ring any bells? thanks! Stan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 05:38:15 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 12:38:15 +0100 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 07:04, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > Somewhere between 4 and 6 years ago (I think), there was a fairly major > security bug reported (probably in Linux, or in SSH code, but > something widely used). Too vague. I think you need to narrow it down. Heartbleed, Spectre, Rowhammer, Meltdown, Shellshock? https://github.com/hannob/vulns -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 06:00:52 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 07:00:52 -0500 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're probably talking about the java bug from back then. I forget the name ofnit. Bill On Tue, Jan 11, 2022, 6:38 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 07:04, Stan Sieler via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Somewhere between 4 and 6 years ago (I think), there was a fairly major > > security bug reported (probably in Linux, or in SSH code, but > > something widely used). > > Too vague. I think you need to narrow it down. > > Heartbleed, Spectre, Rowhammer, Meltdown, Shellshock? > > https://github.com/hannob/vulns > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 > From abs at absd.org Tue Jan 11 09:20:21 2022 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 15:20:21 +0000 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 06:04, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm trying to remember the name (and some information about) a past > security bug, for an article. > > Somewhere between 4 and 6 years ago (I think), there was a fairly major > security bug reported (probably in Linux, or in SSH code, but > something widely used). > > IIRC, the bug was a single line that called a function (possibly along the > lines of CredentialsCheck), and may have involved a bit-wise or (or and) > instead of a logical one. > > It may have been that either the routine wasn't getting called when it > should, or that the programmer misinterpreted what the return value meant. > > Ring any bells? Just on the offchangce the bell might be named "Apple" (it's a goto fail rather than a bit-wise issue) https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2014/02/24/anatomy-of-a-goto-fail-apples-ssl-bug-explained-plus-an-unofficial-patch/ David From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 11 10:40:37 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:40:37 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <01S8BJOYKEQ48WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> I have a rackmount DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver containing a H7816-BA power supply which doesn't work. As I mentioned before, this power supply is a real pig to work on. I also have two tabletop DEC 3000/600 Alphaservers which contain H7816-AA power supplies which are similar but not identical. The main difference seems to be that the H7816-AA power supplies contain four integrated fans (and lots of dust) while the H7816-BA relies on one large fan external to it. I am hoping that comparisons between a working H7816-AA and the failed H7816-BA will help diagnose the cause of the failure. So I dug out one of the tabletop machines, took the cover off and powered it up to ensure the power supply actually works before I go any further. The green LED came on, the fans turned and the diagnostic LEDs lit up. After running for less than a minute, there was a cracking/popping noise and a small spark visible from somewhere around three unmarked orange surface mount components on the I/O board (not in the power supply) plus a whiff of cooked electronics. The power supply kept running and the diagnostic LEDs remained lit but I powered off quickly and poked around with my finger to try to find a hot component without success. I examined the area with a magnifying glass under a strong light but I was unable to find anything damaged. I wonder would these orange components be tantalum supply decoupling capacitors? They seem to have a small pip in the solder at the positive ends. After powering back on, two of them had 5.0V across them and there was 4.87V across the third slightly smaller one, there were no further fireworks (so far anyway) and the SROM mini-console works. I have had similar experiences with one or both of my two tabletop units in the past and I was unable to track down the culprits then either. Neither unit works properly due to cache failure issues. I wonder could it be plausable that the caches are not functioning correctly due to prior failure of several supply decoupling capacitors on the system board? Unless these devices have markings on the underside, I have no idea what their capacitance values are. There is probably no point in trying to measure them in-circuit if there are several all over the board in parallel with each other. Unsoldering them and trying to measure them then isn't going to work either if they have failed. Any suggestions for something to replace them with that is less likely to go bang in the future? Could I get away with using components with leads to replace them instead of surface mounted ones or would that introduce too much inductance? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 11 13:57:07 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:57:07 -0600 Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4d0cc31d-e95a-38be-2a98-6946417ef01f@pico-systems.com> On 1/11/22 10:40 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I have a rackmount DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver containing a H7816-BA power supply > which doesn't work. As I mentioned before, this power supply is a real pig > to work on. > > I also have two tabletop DEC 3000/600 Alphaservers which contain H7816-AA > power supplies which are similar but not identical. The main difference > seems to be that the H7816-AA power supplies contain four integrated fans > (and lots of dust) while the H7816-BA relies on one large fan external to > it. I am hoping that comparisons between a working H7816-AA and the failed > H7816-BA will help diagnose the cause of the failure. > > So I dug out one of the tabletop machines, took the cover off and powered > it up to ensure the power supply actually works before I go any further. > The green LED came on, the fans turned and the diagnostic LEDs lit up. > After running for less than a minute, there was a cracking/popping noise > and a small spark visible from somewhere around three unmarked orange > surface mount components on the I/O board (not in the power supply) plus > a whiff of cooked electronics. The power supply kept running and the > diagnostic LEDs remained lit but I powered off quickly and poked around > with my finger to try to find a hot component without success. I examined > the area with a magnifying glass under a strong light but I was unable to > find anything damaged. > > I wonder would these orange components be tantalum supply decoupling > capacitors? They seem to have a small pip in the solder at the positive > ends. After powering back on, two of them had 5.0V across them and there > was 4.87V across the third slightly smaller one, there were no further > fireworks (so far anyway) and the SROM mini-console works. The orange ones are usually Sprague Oxi-Caps, designed to replace Tantalum with Niobium Oxide, and they generally do NOT have the classic Tantalum issue with catastrophic failure after periods of disuse. When the do fail, they generally turn black. Some Tantalum caps were made black, some yellow. Note, the bar polarity marker is usually on the PLUS side on Tantalums and Oxi-Caps. Yes, failed decoupling caps could lead to intermittent failures. Jon From hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE Tue Jan 11 12:26:04 2022 From: hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 19:26:04 +0100 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:04:33 -0800, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > It may have been that either the routine wasn't getting called when it > should, or that the programmer misinterpreted what the return value meant. The Debian 4 OpenSSL disaster comes to mind, where IIRC a know-it-all package manager beautified the source and reduced the effective length of any generated keys to 32 bit. But that was more like 15 yrs ago... Cheerio, Hauke -- Hauke Fath Linn?weg 7 64342 Seeheim-Jugenheim Germany From jon at jonworld.com Tue Jan 11 14:02:44 2022 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 20:02:44 +0000 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> References: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> Message-ID: Heartbleed? On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 20:00, Hauke Fath via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:04:33 -0800, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > It may have been that either the routine wasn't getting called when it > > should, or that the programmer misinterpreted what the return value > meant. > > The Debian 4 OpenSSL disaster comes to mind, where IIRC a know-it-all > package manager beautified the source and reduced the effective length > of any generated keys to 32 bit. But that was more like 15 yrs ago... > > Cheerio, > Hauke > > -- > Hauke Fath > Linn?weg 7 > 64342 Seeheim-Jugenheim > Germany > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 11 14:11:54 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 15:11:54 -0500 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> Message-ID: <5FCCA2B5-3E06-4714-A5D7-DFBE5F6FEB3B@comcast.net> No, Heartbleed was a protocol specification error, where if you implemented what the spec said you automatically produced a security bug. paul > On Jan 11, 2022, at 3:02 PM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Heartbleed? > > > On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 20:00, Hauke Fath via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:04:33 -0800, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: >>> It may have been that either the routine wasn't getting called when it >>> should, or that the programmer misinterpreted what the return value >> meant. >> >> The Debian 4 OpenSSL disaster comes to mind, where IIRC a know-it-all >> package manager beautified the source and reduced the effective length >> of any generated keys to 32 bit. But that was more like 15 yrs ago... >> >> Cheerio, >> Hauke >> >> -- >> Hauke Fath >> Linn?weg 7 >> 64342 Seeheim-Jugenheim >> Germany >> > -- > -Jon > +44 7792 149029 From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Jan 11 14:15:32 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 20:15:32 +0000 Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: A bad tant will show 0V across it and it will show 0V (or very close to it) across all the other tants used as filter caps on that same rail. I would turn it back on and measure all of your rails. See which is affected. Then pull out every card in the system that uses that rail (probably all cards use all rails). See if the supply comes back up. If not, problem is in the supply. If yes, put one card back in at a time and check the rails. It will help you ID the bad card. For the bad board, look at the schematic for all the caps (tants) on the affected rail. If there are only a few, pull them all out and see if that solves the problem. The system will likely function just fine missing some filter caps. Take each cap and put it on an ohm meter. If the result is 0 ohms, that's your bad one. Pull the rest back and replace the bad one. If there are many tants on a board then I like the smoke-'em-out method. Pull the board, put it on your bench. If the bad rail is, say +15V, take a very stout bench supply, set it to 5V and current limited to very low, 50mA. Connect your bench supply to the card and slowly increase current. The supply will be voltage limited to something near zero but not quite because of the short in the tant. You may also need to increase the voltage too (even though it may still be zero). Likely would have to exceed 1A-2A or more amps to get the effect you want. The bad tant will heat up and hopefully let the magic smoke out. Or just get hot to the touch. If you had an IR camera, that would be a much more elegant approach but I just get them to smoke. Do wear eye protection as sometimes they explode. Here is a video where I used this technique just a few days ago. You can see me increasing the current and you can see how easy it is to identify the bad cap. There were 15 tants on this board, making it very difficult to locate the bad one otherwise. https://youtu.be/Fh8fGgh4yKY Sometimes there is more than one bad one. In this case, you may need to increase the current to many more amps. If you notice one smoking before any others, remove it (don't bother replacing it yet) and continue with the current to locate the next bad one, etc. By your description, it appears that the rail on the stock power supply is plenty stout enough so it isn't being shorted but it is working to help you reveal the bad component. In case the power supply has any inductors that might suffer from a shorted tant, I would remove and use my own bench supply as described above. Good luck! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2022 11:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems I have a rackmount DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver containing a H7816-BA power supply which doesn't work. As I mentioned before, this power supply is a real pig to work on. I also have two tabletop DEC 3000/600 Alphaservers which contain H7816-AA power supplies which are similar but not identical. The main difference seems to be that the H7816-AA power supplies contain four integrated fans (and lots of dust) while the H7816-BA relies on one large fan external to it. I am hoping that comparisons between a working H7816-AA and the failed H7816-BA will help diagnose the cause of the failure. So I dug out one of the tabletop machines, took the cover off and powered it up to ensure the power supply actually works before I go any further. The green LED came on, the fans turned and the diagnostic LEDs lit up. After running for less than a minute, there was a cracking/popping noise and a small spark visible from somewhere around three unmarked orange surface mount components on the I/O board (not in the power supply) plus a whiff of cooked electronics. The power supply kept running and the diagnostic LEDs remained lit but I powered off quickly and poked around with my finger to try to find a hot component without success. I examined the area with a magnifying glass under a strong light but I was unable to find anything damaged. I wonder would these orange components be tantalum supply decoupling capacitors? They seem to have a small pip in the solder at the positive ends. After powering back on, two of them had 5.0V across them and there was 4.87V across the third slightly smaller one, there were no further fireworks (so far anyway) and the SROM mini-console works. I have had similar experiences with one or both of my two tabletop units in the past and I was unable to track down the culprits then either. Neither unit works properly due to cache failure issues. I wonder could it be plausable that the caches are not functioning correctly due to prior failure of several supply decoupling capacitors on the system board? Unless these devices have markings on the underside, I have no idea what their capacitance values are. There is probably no point in trying to measure them in-circuit if there are several all over the board in parallel with each other. Unsoldering them and trying to measure them then isn't going to work either if they have failed. Any suggestions for something to replace them with that is less likely to go bang in the future? Could I get away with using components with leads to replace them instead of surface mounted ones or would that introduce too much inductance? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 11 17:17:47 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 23:17:47 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <4d0cc31d-e95a-38be-2a98-6946417ef01f@pico-systems.com> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:57:07 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >On 1/11/22 10:40 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> I have a rackmount DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver containing a H7816-BA power supply >> which doesn't work. As I mentioned before, this power supply is a real pig >> to work on. >> >> I also have two tabletop DEC 3000/600 Alphaservers which contain H7816-AA >> power supplies which are similar but not identical. The main difference >> seems to be that the H7816-AA power supplies contain four integrated fans >> (and lots of dust) while the H7816-BA relies on one large fan external to >> it. I am hoping that comparisons between a working H7816-AA and the failed >> H7816-BA will help diagnose the cause of the failure. >> >> So I dug out one of the tabletop machines, took the cover off and powered >> it up to ensure the power supply actually works before I go any further. >> The green LED came on, the fans turned and the diagnostic LEDs lit up. >> After running for less than a minute, there was a cracking/popping noise >> and a small spark visible from somewhere around three unmarked orange >> surface mount components on the I/O board (not in the power supply) plus >> a whiff of cooked electronics. The power supply kept running and the >> diagnostic LEDs remained lit but I powered off quickly and poked around >> with my finger to try to find a hot component without success. I examined >> the area with a magnifying glass under a strong light but I was unable to >> find anything damaged. >> >> I wonder would these orange components be tantalum supply decoupling >> capacitors? They seem to have a small pip in the solder at the positive >> ends. After powering back on, two of them had 5.0V across them and there >> was 4.87V across the third slightly smaller one, there were no further >> fireworks (so far anyway) and the SROM mini-console works. > > The orange ones are usually Sprague Oxi-Caps, designed to replace Tantalum > with Niobium Oxide, and they generally do NOT have the classic Tantalum > issue with catastrophic failure after periods of disuse. When the do fail, > they generally turn black. Some Tantalum caps were made black, some yellow. > Note, the bar polarity marker is usually on the PLUS side on Tantalums and > Oxi-Caps. > Yes, failed decoupling caps could lead to intermittent failures. > Thanks Jon. Here is a badly focused picture of the suspect components: http://www.beyondthepale.ie/cctech/p1010198.jpg They are just beside where the flash reflected :-( My first problem is I don't know exactly where I saw the spark other than it seemed to be associated with one of the orange components in the middle of the picture. My second problem is that there were no lasting effects visible. I can't find anything that's turned black or looks damaged in any way. Regards, Peter. > > Jon > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 11 17:35:07 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 23:35:07 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8FO0JH8UA8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Thanks Eugene. Perhaps I should have more clearly stated that whatever short was there cleared itself pretty much as soon as it happened, leaving no evidence of where it it had been and nothing to go on to locate it. There is no sign of anything getting hot afterwards. The machine still seems to work as well as it did before the failure so it seems unlikely it was an active component or a component in series with a power rail that failed. I have seen a non-surface mounted tantalum bead capacitor short in an ADM-5 terminal. It produced not much noise, lots of smoke pouring out of it and a little black hole in the top of it as far as I recall, a bit like a Rifa capacitor failing in fact. On another occasion I had one explode violently with a very loud bang leaving nothing but the leads sticking out of the board in some other machine that I don't recall the name of. This particular incident was somewhere between the two above. It was not very loud or violent but it was over very quickly indeed and I can't find what happened. Regards, Peter. W2HX wrote: > > A bad tant will show 0V across it and it will show 0V (or very close to it) > across all the other tants used as filter caps on that same rail. I would > turn it back on and measure all of your rails. See which is affected. Then > pull out every card in the system that uses that rail (probably all cards > use all rails). See if the supply comes back up. If not, problem is in the > supply. If yes, put one card back in at a time and check the rails. It will > help you ID the bad card. > > For the bad board, look at the schematic for all the caps (tants) on the > affected rail. If there are only a few, pull them all out and see if that > solves the problem. The system will likely function just fine missing some > filter caps. Take each cap and put it on an ohm meter. If the result is > 0 ohms, that's your bad one. Pull the rest back and replace the bad one. > > If there are many tants on a board then I like the smoke-'em-out method. > Pull the board, put it on your bench. If the bad rail is, say +15V, take a > very stout bench supply, set it to 5V and current limited to very low, 50mA. > Connect your bench supply to the card and slowly increase current. The > supply will be voltage limited to something near zero but not quite because > of the short in the tant. You may also need to increase the voltage too > (even though it may still be zero). Likely would have to exceed 1A-2A or > more amps to get the effect you want. The bad tant will heat up and > hopefully let the magic smoke out. Or just get hot to the touch. If you had > an IR camera, that would be a much more elegant approach but I just get > them to smoke. Do wear eye protection as sometimes they explode. > > Here is a video where I used this technique just a few days ago. You can see > me increasing the current and you can see how easy it is to identify the bad > cap. There were 15 tants on this board, making it very difficult to locate > the bad one otherwise. > https://youtu.be/Fh8fGgh4yKY > > > Sometimes there is more than one bad one. In this case, you may need to > increase the current to many more amps. If you notice one smoking before > any others, remove it (don't bother replacing it yet) and continue with the > current to locate the next bad one, etc. > > By your description, it appears that the rail on the stock power supply is > plenty stout enough so it isn't being shorted but it is working to help you > reveal the bad component. In case the power supply has any inductors that > might suffer from a shorted tant, I would remove and use my own bench supply > as described above. > > Good luck! > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2022 11:41 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems > > I have a rackmount DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver containing a H7816-BA power > supply which doesn't work. As I mentioned before, this power supply is a > real pig to work on. > > I also have two tabletop DEC 3000/600 Alphaservers which contain H7816-AA > power supplies which are similar but not identical. The main difference > seems to be that the H7816-AA power supplies contain four integrated fans > (and lots of dust) while the H7816-BA relies on one large fan external to > it. I am hoping that comparisons between a working H7816-AA and the failed > H7816-BA will help diagnose the cause of the failure. > > So I dug out one of the tabletop machines, took the cover off and powered > it up to ensure the power supply actually works before I go any further. > The green LED came on, the fans turned and the diagnostic LEDs lit up. > After running for less than a minute, there was a cracking/popping noise and > a small spark visible from somewhere around three unmarked orange surface > mount components on the I/O board (not in the power supply) plus a whiff of > cooked electronics. The power supply kept running and the diagnostic LEDs > remained lit but I powered off quickly and poked around with my finger to > try to find a hot component without success. I examined the area with a > magnifying glass under a strong light but I was unable to find anything > damaged. > > I wonder would these orange components be tantalum supply decoupling > capacitors? They seem to have a small pip in the solder at the positive > ends. After powering back on, two of them had 5.0V across them and there > was 4.87V across the third slightly smaller one, there were no further > fireworks (so far anyway) and the SROM mini-console works. > > I have had similar experiences with one or both of my two tabletop units in > the past and I was unable to track down the culprits then either. > Neither unit works properly due to cache failure issues. I wonder could it > be plausable that the caches are not functioning correctly due to prior > failure of several supply decoupling capacitors on the system board? > > Unless these devices have markings on the underside, I have no idea what > their capacitance values are. There is probably no point in trying to > measure them in-circuit if there are several all over the board in parallel > with each other. Unsoldering them and trying to measure them then isn't > going to work either if they have failed. Any suggestions for something > to replace them with that is less likely to go bang in the future? Could > I get away with using components with leads to replace them instead of > surface mounted ones or would that introduce too much inductance? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 18:52:04 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:52:04 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 10:05 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > No blinkenlights. It's not exciting looking. This tracks for PDP-11s (and > 8's!) as well. No one pays big money for 11/04, 11/34, 11/44 or LSI-11 > systems (though prices are creeping up like everything else) but 11/05, > 11/40, 11/70, etc. sell for huge amounts every time. There's an 11/70 > front panel at over $500 on eBay right now with two days left, it'll > probably sell for $2500. > Not even close. Only sold for $1800 :) https://www.ebay.com/itm/185225084454 From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 19:34:37 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 20:34:37 -0500 Subject: NEXT/LISP Mirror has viruses Message-ID: http://mirror.informatimago.com/ This site has or had viruses at some point, the tigger files.html files are still present. be cautious, and let the person who runs it know if they're known. BIll From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 19:35:46 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 20:35:46 -0500 Subject: NEXT/LISP Mirror has viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: specifically here http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/ On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 8:34 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > http://mirror.informatimago.com/ > This site has or had viruses at some point, the tigger files.html files > are still present. be cautious, and let the person who runs it know if > they're known. > BIll > From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jan 11 19:40:25 2022 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 17:40:25 -0800 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> References: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> Message-ID: Re: > The Debian 4 OpenSSL disaster comes to mind, where IIRC a know-it-all > package manager beautified the source and reduced the effective length > of any generated keys to 32 bit. But that was more like 15 yrs ago... > That sound like something I should read about, thanks ... but it isn't it. Stan From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jan 11 19:56:38 2022 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 17:56:38 -0800 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've received a couple of suggestions, thanks, but none seem right. BTW, I'm sorry (Liam) that I didn't make it clearer that it was absolutely a software bug, which excludes Spectre, Rowhammer, Meltdown. Aside: the Meltdown and/or Spectre patch to macOS hurt performance ... the elapsed time to compile 500 programs increased by about 12%. (At the time of the patch, I tested (properly) before and after the patch ... then forgot to publish, and since misplaced my notes.) Although I mentioned 'code', I should have been more specific: C (or, possibly, C++), but definitely no other language. I don't recall it being a buffer overflow. I *think* it was some kind of authentication failure (e.g., incorrectly reporting "ok"), but I'm not sure. I do know I wrote a several page article about it, and how certain coding practices led to it, but I can't *find* the article now :( (not published) My guess of 4-6 years ago is possibly narrower than it should be, but I'm not sure. My hope is that by being reminded of the vulnerability name, I can search my computer, and backups, for text files containing that name :) (Or the name of function associated with the problem.) thanks, Stan From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jan 11 20:06:12 2022 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 18:06:12 -0800 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> Message-ID: Re: On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:02 PM Jonathan Katz wrote: > > Heartbleed? > Checked the source code for that just now ... nope, sorry. I recall the problem being completely different from buffer overflow (e.g., by a unchecked memcpy ()), and more akin to either the programmer misinterpreting what a function did because of a poor name for the function, or using logical instead of boolean (or vice versa) logic. Of course, I could be wrong there :) thanks! From stark at mit.edu Tue Jan 11 21:03:11 2022 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:03:11 -0500 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: <20220111192604895017.b7055356@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE> Message-ID: Your description made me think of Goto Fail: https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/02/22/applebug.html > or using logical instead of boolean (or vice versa) logic I did find this: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/07/google-pushed-a-one-character-typo-to-production-bricking-chrome-os-devices/ But I'm pretty sure I recall another similar bug of this type. From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Jan 11 22:09:21 2022 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 23:09:21 -0500 Subject: OT: looking for help remembering name/info about security bug In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <20220112040922.E76BA4E6F4@mx2.ezwind.net> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 17:56, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > I *think* it was some kind of authentication failure (e.g., > incorrectly reporting "ok"), but I'm not sure. > > I do know I wrote a several page article about it, and how certain > coding practices led to it, but I can't *find* the article now :( (not > published) My guess of 4-6 years ago is possibly narrower than it > should be, but I'm not sure. Have you had a squint at the RISKS archives: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/ Major computer-related issues are usually mentioned here, frequently (but not always) with capsule summaries. A search with some of your remembered characteristics might turn up something. -- Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 12 10:10:18 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 11:10:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDF of FP11-A FMPS available Message-ID: <20220112161018.3998B18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Just ran across this: http://wwcm.synology.me/pdf/MP00189%20FP11-A%20Field%20Maintenance%20Print%20Set.pdf which isn't available online in this form. (This appears to be a different scan from the one on the Maine Coon site, split up into several TIFF's, as it has the cover which that one doesn't show.) As always, history shows that the best way not to lose things is to have multiple independent copies! So download often! Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 12 11:02:47 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 11:02:47 -0600 Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 1/11/22 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks Jon. > > Here is a badly focused picture of the suspect components: > > http://www.beyondthepale.ie/cctech/p1010198.jpg WOW, I don't know what those are!? They look like big ceramic caps to me, but if they don't have any polarity marking, then they can't be Tantalum.? Big multilayer ceramics are prone to cracking due to board flexing, and that can cause catastrophic failure, too. Jon From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 12 11:05:36 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 11:05:36 -0600 Subject: NEXT/LISP Mirror has viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1953df1c-154f-642b-4f6a-6da3e5cd3ee5@12bitsbest.com> I am looking for one or two 8" floppy drives, preferably Shugart compatible at a reasonable price. Does anyone have anything like this laying around, unused, in their basement, storage locker, garage, etc. I am looking to make a RX01 (and hopefully RX02) disk formatter and copier. Thanks, ???????????? Mike From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 12 11:16:30 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 11:16:30 -0600 Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am looking for one or two 8" floppy drives, preferably Shugart compatible at a reasonable price. Does anyone have anything like this laying around, unused, in their basement, storage locker, garage, etc. I am looking to make a RX01 (and hopefully RX02) disk formatter and copier. Thanks, ???????????? Mike From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 11:27:47 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 13:27:47 -0400 Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6a6a995e-10b4-f66b-d05f-8aae260e8886@gmail.com> Where are you located?? I have two full height single sided Shugart drives you could have for shipping.? I got them a few years ago for a project that I am no longer interested in.? They are used and I do not know if they are fully functional or not, but could do some basic testing if your are interested.? I am located on the east coast of Canada. Paul. On 2022-01-12 1:16 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for one or two 8" floppy drives, preferably Shugart > compatible at a reasonable price. > > Does anyone have anything like this laying around, unused, in their > basement, storage locker, garage, etc. > > I am looking to make a RX01 (and hopefully RX02) disk formatter and > copier. > > Thanks, > > ???????????? Mike > From rlloken at telus.net Wed Jan 12 11:31:31 2022 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 10:31:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have, as far as I recall, a 8" single sided full height Shugart drive here that I swapped out of my Trash 80 Model II for a pair of half height DSDD drives many many years ago. I can send it to you for the cost of postage if it is of use to you. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 13:04:43 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:04:43 -0500 Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:16 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for one or two 8" floppy drives, preferably Shugart > compatible at a reasonable price. > > Does anyone have anything like this laying around, unused, in their > basement, storage locker, garage, etc. > > I am looking to make a RX01 (and hopefully RX02) disk formatter and copier. Mike gets first choice, of course, but I'm also looking for something similar, especially since doubled-sided half-height drives (TM848) can become media strippers (two ceramic heads vs one head and a pad). I just need to read single-sided DEC media, so that's fine. I should have all the cables and adapters and such squared away shortly, and I already have a 486 I'm using with ImageDisk, TeleDisk, and PUTR with 5.25" media. 8" is next, especially a large carton of RX01 media. RX02 might have to wait on getting/finding an RXV21 and restoring an RX02 because the format is oddball. I think I have an RXV21 somewhere but I wouldn't have used it in this century. After Mike gets squared away, I'm in for a SS FH 8" drive. I'm in Ohio. -ethan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 12 13:30:58 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 19:30:58 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8GSYE5UFS8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 11:02:47 -0600 Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 1/11/22 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Thanks Jon. >> >> Here is a badly focused picture of the suspect components: >> >> http://www.beyondthepale.ie/cctech/p1010198.jpg > > WOW, I don't know what those are!? They look like big > ceramic caps to me, but if they don't have any polarity > marking, then they can't be Tantalum.? Big multilayer > ceramics are prone to cracking due to board flexing, and > that can cause catastrophic failure, too. > Thanks again Jon. They do have spikes of solder sticking out from the positive ends which can be seen in the picture. There are no circuit references on the I/O board where the picture was taken. However there are markings on the system board including little + signs at the same ends as the solder spikes on similar capacitors on that board. I managed to desolder one of them from the middle of the picture using two soldering irons. I am not very good at this surface mount stuff :-( It came out ok though. I must have got lucky and picked a good one because it measured 47uF on the capacitance range on my multimeter. Regards, Peter. > > Jon > From PETER at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 12 12:59:25 2022 From: PETER at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:59:25 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8GSLU8RLQ8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 11:02:47 -0600 Jon Elson wrote: > On 1/11/22 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Thanks Jon. >> >> Here is a badly focused picture of the suspect components: >> >> http://www.beyondthepale.ie/cctech/p1010198.jpg > > WOW, I don't know what those are!? They look like big > ceramic caps to me, but if they don't have any polarity > marking, then they can't be Tantalum.? Big multilayer > ceramics are prone to cracking due to board flexing, and > that can cause catastrophic failure, too. > Thanks again Jon. They do have spikes of solder sticking out from the positive ends which can be seen in the picture. There are no circuit references on the I/O board where the picture was taken. However there are markings on the system board including little + signs at the same ends as the solder spikes on similar capacitors on that board. I tried desoldering one from the middle of the picture using two soldering irons - I'm not very good at this surface mounted stuff :-( It came out ok though. I must have got lucky and picked a good one because it measured 47uF in the capacitance section on my multimeter. Regards, Peter. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 12 14:23:56 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 15:23:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed Message-ID: <20220112202356.695B318C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:16 PM Mike Katz wrote: > I am looking to make a RX01 (and hopefully RX02) disk formatter Something that can format floppies for the RX01 can effectively format RX02 floppies, too. An RX02 drive can convert RX01-formatted floppies to RX02-formatted floppies. Given how arcane the RX02 format is (sector _headers_ are written in single density; sector _data_ is written in double) I'd be pretty surprised if anything except an RX02 can do it. Noel From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 12 14:39:06 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:39:06 -0600 Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: <20220112202356.695B318C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220112202356.695B318C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6a715c42-a0da-d734-2119-0d96a8721237@12bitsbest.com> A completely software driven controller could handle reading an RX02 disk it if it knows to expect it. There is a switch on the logic board inside the RX02 to indicate whether the drive should be RX01 or RX02 compatible On 1/12/2022 2:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:16 PM Mike Katz wrote: > > > I am looking to make a RX01 (and hopefully RX02) disk formatter > > Something that can format floppies for the RX01 can effectively format RX02 floppies, too. > > An RX02 drive can convert RX01-formatted floppies to RX02-formatted floppies. > > Given how arcane the RX02 format is (sector _headers_ are written in single > density; sector _data_ is written in double) I'd be pretty surprised if > anything except an RX02 can do it. > > Noel From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 15:28:52 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 13:28:52 -0800 Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: <20220112202356.695B318C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220112202356.695B318C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/12/22 12:23, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Given how arcane the RX02 format is (sector _headers_ are written in single > density; sector _data_ is written in double) I'd be pretty surprised if > anything except an RX02 can do it. True that--however, a flux transition-type controller, such as the Catweasel or Kyroflux can easily duplicate a blank RX02, funny DEC MFM floppy. Of course, the same can also duplicate a blank RX01 FM disk. If you're not PC-centric, that may be the best solution for your purposes. --Chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 12 15:43:30 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 15:43:30 -0600 Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: References: <20220112202356.695B318C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I am looking into the fluxengine system and a Raspberry Pi. On 1/12/2022 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/22 12:23, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> Given how arcane the RX02 format is (sector _headers_ are written in single >> density; sector _data_ is written in double) I'd be pretty surprised if >> anything except an RX02 can do it. > True that--however, a flux transition-type controller, such as the > Catweasel or Kyroflux can easily duplicate a blank RX02, funny DEC MFM > floppy. Of course, the same can also duplicate a blank RX01 FM disk. > > If you're not PC-centric, that may be the best solution for your purposes. > > --Chuck > From rws at ripco.com Wed Jan 12 17:28:33 2022 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 17:28:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <01S8GSYE5UFS8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8GSYE5UFS8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > They do have spikes of solder sticking out from the positive ends Yes, those are tantalum caps. The "hat" as I've always called it marks the positive end, and it should be part of the case, so it won't melt away in solder. These things are a bit obsolete and aren't particularly common, but not impossible either. I use a 100uF 0805-size (2mm x 1.25mm) one of these on a weird board we build for a customer at work; getting that much capacitance in a part that small always amazes me! I hit Ebay to see if I could find something vaguely like what you have. The first listings that looked plausible were 194453105893 and 203613355685. I'm not saying they're the right size, or voltage, or anything like it, but it'll get you a manufacturer's part number that you can search for and find like ones. His price seems high too. You could, of course, sub an ordinary tantalum. > I managed to desolder one of them from the middle of the picture using > two soldering irons. I am not very good at this surface mount stuff :-( > It came out ok though. I must have got lucky and picked a good one > because it measured 47uF on the capacitance range on my multimeter. Two irons is a perfectly valid method of removing SMT parts, if you're quick! Ever heard of a hot tweezer? It's two little irons, hinged at the top. I have a variety of tips for mine and prefer it to hot air for most small things. (Well, for routine work I usually have a chisel tip on my iron, and can get across both ends of something up to 0805-size and sweep it off the board. 1206 and bigger, you have to get creative, or use the hot tweezer.) Richard Schauer KF9VP From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 12 17:39:52 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 23:39:52 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <01S8GSYE5UFS8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8H28MWJ4C8WXMM3@beyondthepale.ie> On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 19:30:58 +0000, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 11:02:47 -0600 Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/11/22 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Jon. >>> >>> Here is a badly focused picture of the suspect components: >>> >>> http://www.beyondthepale.ie/cctech/p1010198.jpg >> >> WOW, I don't know what those are!? They look like big >> ceramic caps to me, but if they don't have any polarity >> marking, then they can't be Tantalum.? Big multilayer >> ceramics are prone to cracking due to board flexing, and >> that can cause catastrophic failure, too. >> > > Thanks again Jon. > > They do have spikes of solder sticking out from the positive ends > which can be seen in the picture. There are no circuit references on > the I/O board where the picture was taken. However there are markings > on the system board including little + signs at the same ends as the > solder spikes on similar capacitors on that board. > > I managed to desolder one of them from the middle of the picture using > two soldering irons. I am not very good at this surface mount stuff :-( > It came out ok though. I must have got lucky and picked a good one > because it measured 47uF on the capacitance range on my multimeter. > I looked around some more with the magnifying glass and found the tiniest crack in the body of one of the smaller orange components, the vertical one in the middle of the picture. I desoldered it and measured it. It was 9.73uF and had 35.7 kOhms leakage (the 47uF one had no measurable leakage). It is not one of the three I suspected initially and it has 12V across it in operation, possibly associated with the nearby AUI connector. I presume it is a 10uF unit and despite having released some magic smoke, it seems to be continuing to function reasonably well. I guess failure of these sort of capacitors is probably not anything to do with the cache failures I am getting then. Time to get back to the power supply I think. Regards, Peter. > >> >> Jon >> > From macro at orcam.me.uk Wed Jan 12 18:13:54 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:13:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2022, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks Jon. > > > > Here is a badly focused picture of the suspect components: > > > > http://www.beyondthepale.ie/cctech/p1010198.jpg > > WOW, I don't know what those are!? They look like big ceramic caps to me, but > if they don't have any polarity marking, then they can't be Tantalum.? Big > multilayer ceramics are prone to cracking due to board flexing, and that can > cause catastrophic failure, too. They do look like tantalum caps to me, e.g.: The pointed end indicates polarity. Maciej From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 12 18:09:00 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:09:00 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8GSYE5UFS8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8H3AUJRJ68WXMM3@beyondthepale.ie> On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 17:28:33 -0600 Richard Schauer via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> They do have spikes of solder sticking out from the positive ends > > Yes, those are tantalum caps. The "hat" as I've always called it marks > the positive end, and it should be part of the case, so it won't melt away > in solder. These things are a bit obsolete and aren't particularly > common, but not impossible either. I use a 100uF 0805-size (2mm x 1.25mm) > one of these on a weird board we build for a customer at work; getting > that much capacitance in a part that small always amazes me! > This stuff dates from around 1994 I think. My 47uF component is about 6 or 7mm x 3 or 4mm. Maybe a problem with squeezing a lot of capacitance in could be that it wants to pop out again! > > I hit Ebay to see if I could find something vaguely like what you have. > The first listings that looked plausible were 194453105893 and > 203613355685. I'm not saying they're the right size, or voltage, or > anything like it, but it'll get you a manufacturer's part number that you > can search for and find like ones. His price seems high too. You could, > of course, sub an ordinary tantalum. > I probably need to peer closely at all of mine and figure out how many I need. There are about 50 of these things in each of three machines :-( > >> I managed to desolder one of them from the middle of the picture using >> two soldering irons. I am not very good at this surface mount stuff :-( >> It came out ok though. I must have got lucky and picked a good one >> because it measured 47uF on the capacitance range on my multimeter. > > Two irons is a perfectly valid method of removing SMT parts, if you're > quick! Ever heard of a hot tweezer? It's two little irons, hinged at the > top. I have a variety of tips for mine and prefer it to hot air for most > small things. (Well, for routine work I usually have a chisel tip on my > iron, and can get across both ends of something up to 0805-size and sweep > it off the board. 1206 and bigger, you have to get creative, or use the > hot tweezer.) > The hot tweezer sounds very nice but I think I'll stick with what I have for now. These machines have other problems and won't ever do anything useful unless I get the cache issues sorted out so I don't necessarily want to invest in new tools for them to end up not getting them repaired. Many thanks. Regards, Peter. > > Richard Schauer > KF9VP > From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 12 18:49:47 2022 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 16:49:47 -0800 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> I have an old IBM Model C typewriter. I can't bear to throw it away, even though it doesn't work well. The carriage doesn't advance, and the A key doesn't work. Do you know how to tune it up? If you want it, it's yours for the price of shipping. I'll probably take it to UPS and ask them to pack it. It will fit in a 24" x 18" x 12" box. Gross shipped weight about 40 lbs. Local pickup free. La Crescenta, CA From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 20:38:01 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:38:01 +0800 Subject: The Portable C Compiler (pcc) In-Reply-To: References: <1463591580.2639203.1641742585376@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: Anders Magnusson clarified that the DG Nova architecture support has been added by him. It was not part of the original. It is also a work in progress so not quite usable as of now. I will try to make it work for simple single file C programs. Tom On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 5:59 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > I have managed to build the latest version of Anders Magnusson's PCC. > It won't build out of the box and requires code and Makefile changes. > It emits valid looking Nova assembly. > Unfortunately it needs a machine support library which is not included to > do function prolog, epilog, shift operators, multiplications, conversions, > some of the assignments and indirections. > There is an old README which provides sample implementations which don't > match the code generated by the compiler. > With some reasonable effort I think the bare-bones Nova support could be > made to work properly (without any target OS support). > It would be nice to be able to do some low-level work in C rather than > doing everything in assembly. > > Tom > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 4:34 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > >> I have tried to get in touch with Anders Magnusson, but got no reply yet. >> >> Tom >> >> On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 11:36 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> > On 01/09/2022 9:10 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as >>> "pcc") >>> > had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody please >>> > point me to this original implementation? >>> > >>> > There is a modern C99 version of this compiler maintained by Anders >>> > Magnusson at: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ >>> > >>> > Unfortunately in this version the Nova architecture is no longer >>> supported >>> > and won't build correctly although associated files are still in the >>> source >>> > hierarchy. >>> > >>> > I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > Tom >>> >>> Have you contacted the author and asked him? I suspect he has the >>> original that he worked from. >>> >>> Will >>> >> From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jan 12 21:25:48 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 20:25:48 -0700 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter In-Reply-To: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/12/22 5:49 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I have an old IBM Model C typewriter. I can't bear to throw it away, > even though it doesn't work well. The carriage doesn't advance, and the > A key doesn't work. Do you know how to tune it up? > > If you want it, it's yours for the price of shipping. I'll probably > take it to UPS and ask them to pack it. I'm sure that there are typewriter collectors that would be interested. But I have no idea how to connect with them. Aside: I wonder if there are any newsgroups. I wonder if Curious Mark or Co. would be interested in it. It seems to be similar to mechanical Teletypes and adding machines. Who knows, maybe we'd see a restoration video about it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 21:51:42 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 22:51:42 -0500 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter In-Reply-To: <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Pam Rogow WPM Typewriter Shop 6819 Greene St Philadelphia 19119 267-974-0792 www.wpmTypewriterShop.com On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:26 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/12/22 5:49 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > I have an old IBM Model C typewriter. I can't bear to throw it away, > > even though it doesn't work well. The carriage doesn't advance, and the > > A key doesn't work. Do you know how to tune it up? > > > > If you want it, it's yours for the price of shipping. I'll probably > > take it to UPS and ask them to pack it. > > I'm sure that there are typewriter collectors that would be interested. > But I have no idea how to connect with them. > > Aside: I wonder if there are any newsgroups. > > I wonder if Curious Mark or Co. would be interested in it. It seems to > be similar to mechanical Teletypes and adding machines. Who knows, > maybe we'd see a restoration video about it. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 22:06:10 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 20:06:10 -0800 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter In-Reply-To: <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <60b4c319-558f-85a9-c339-db83f8de7a48@sydex.com> On 1/12/22 19:25, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/22 5:49 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >> I have an old IBM Model C typewriter. I can't bear to throw it away, >> even though it doesn't work well. The carriage doesn't advance, and the >> A key doesn't work. Do you know how to tune it up? >> >> If you want it, it's yours for the price of shipping. I'll probably >> take it to UPS and ask them to pack it. > > I'm sure that there are typewriter collectors that would be interested. > But I have no idea how to connect with them. > > Aside:? I wonder if there are any newsgroups. > Indeed there are. Here's one that I'm subscribed to: https://groups.io/g/TYPEWRITERS --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jan 12 22:16:40 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 21:16:40 -0700 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter In-Reply-To: <60b4c319-558f-85a9-c339-db83f8de7a48@sydex.com> References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60b4c319-558f-85a9-c339-db83f8de7a48@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/22 9:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Indeed there are. I only found one Usenet newsgroup free.typewriters and it only had one message int he last 2+ years. So not exactly what I would call active. > Here's one that I'm subscribed to: > > https://groups.io/g/TYPEWRITERS That's a mailing list, not a newsgroup. But it is likely to be more active than the free.typewriters newsgroup. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 23:13:13 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 21:13:13 -0800 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60b4c319-558f-85a9-c339-db83f8de7a48@sydex.com> Message-ID: <891b9106-ac76-8331-8f0d-e7d347dbad1d@sydex.com> On 1/12/22 20:16, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > That's a mailing list, not a newsgroup. > > But it is likely to be more active than the free.typewriters newsgroup. Picky, picky picky... The old Golf Ball Typewriter Shop list is long gone, and this was suggested as an alternative. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 13 01:23:51 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 07:23:51 -0000 Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <01S8H3AUJRJ68WXMM3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8GSYE5UFS8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8H3AUJRJ68WXMM3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <000f01d8084e$83b8b060$8b2a1120$@ntlworld.com> > > The hot tweezer sounds very nice but I think I'll stick with what I have for > now. These machines have other problems and won't ever do anything > useful unless I get the cache issues sorted out so I don't necessarily want to > invest in new tools for them to end up not getting them repaired. > I love an excuse to buy a tool. I think *good* tools are always a worthwhile investment. After a buying a tool that I think I will only use once, I tend to find other uses for it over time. Maybe you will find yourself needing to replace an SMT component on another machine in the future? > Many thanks. > > Regards, > Peter. > > > > > Richard Schauer > > KF9VP > > From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Jan 13 02:27:24 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:27:24 -0800 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter In-Reply-To: <891b9106-ac76-8331-8f0d-e7d347dbad1d@sydex.com> References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60b4c319-558f-85a9-c339-db83f8de7a48@sydex.com> <891b9106-ac76-8331-8f0d-e7d347dbad1d@sydex.com> Message-ID: The golfballtypewritershop list groups.io, though there is only around 30+ members. The foolish created a Facebook group where there are several hundred gambling fools. I'll take no part in Facebook ever again, and therefore have regained a little privacy back. Meanwhile Mozilla Firefox is doing weird things, as if it can't find the DNS. I have tried to re-install/refresh with the same result. I guess I'll have to reboot. Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don?t have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don?t." --Jonathan Winters -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:13 PM To: Grant Taylor via cctalk Subject: Re: IBM Model C typewriter On 1/12/22 20:16, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > That's a mailing list, not a newsgroup. > > But it is likely to be more active than the free.typewriters newsgroup. Picky, picky picky... The old Golf Ball Typewriter Shop list is long gone, and this was suggested as an alternative. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 13 11:10:09 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:10:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34 FP11-A on eBait Message-ID: <20220113171009.ED68F18C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Speaking of FP11-A's: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275096265379 I wouldn't mind having one, but not for that much! I wonder how much it will go for? Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jan 13 11:32:06 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 09:32:06 -0800 Subject: DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver problems In-Reply-To: <000f01d8084e$83b8b060$8b2a1120$@ntlworld.com> References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FAXY478M8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8FN0NUJ9K8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8GSYE5UFS8WXMH1@beyondthepale.ie> <01S8H3AUJRJ68WXMM3@beyondthepale.ie> <000f01d8084e$83b8b060$8b2a1120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I love an excuse to buy a tool. I think *good* tools are always a worthwhile > investment. After a buying a tool that I think I will only use once, I tend > to find other uses for it over time. Maybe you will find yourself needing to > replace an SMT component on another machine in the future? Purchasing *good* tools is a key thing. A good tool is an investment, a cheap tool is often a waste of money (there are always exceptions). Zane From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jan 13 14:45:34 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:45:34 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" direction, I've ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you purchase the board, you get a BOM and links to stored shopping baskets for some European vendors. Has anyone built this in the US and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev 1.2k by the way, but any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences between the versions are listed. Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 15:18:35 2022 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:18:35 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Bill, I have a Digikey shopping cart for most of the items and another for Mouser for the rest of the items but mine was Rev "i". I did this back in August and I looked at the cart and noticed that some of the items may have substitutes now. I know I had to do a few substitutes when I followed the BOM even back then. I'll post them here but please be careful and check the BOM from the RTC (Retro Chip Tester) Google site you were emailed against these carts. Again, you may have to make some substitutes and some of the other components may not line up exactly but that's the nature of these pre-created carts, unfortunately. It will at least give you a good start: Note, I ordered from a Digikey.ca site but I created an identical US cart for a friend in the US that was building one as well. Again, triple check everything. Digikey US cart: https://www.digikey.com/short/d9vrt54z Mouse CA cart for 4 items not at Digikey (but they may be there now?): https://www.mouser.ca/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e707cf7c4 BTW, good choice on a Christmas present. You will wonder how you did without it. Hope this helps, Santo On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 3:46 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" direction, I've > ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you purchase the board, you > get > a BOM and links to stored shopping baskets for some European vendors. Has > anyone built this in the US and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev > 1.2k by the way, but any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences > between the versions are listed. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill S. > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 13 16:02:13 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:02:13 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34 FP11-A on eBait In-Reply-To: <20220113171009.ED68F18C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220113171009.ED68F18C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <41bfc915-6556-9237-d82b-b574ff942004@alembic.crystel.com> I guess what it would be worth to someone. If I had an 11/34 an FPP module would be really helpful as Fortran apps don't run too well without it. That said the 64 bit dedicated processor with 16 2901's always struck me as a bit excessive for an 11/34. (Then again I have a FPF11, but at least the 11/23/24 supports 22 bit addressing) On 1/13/2022 12:10 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of FP11-A's: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/275096265379 > > I wouldn't mind having one, but not for that much! I wonder how much it > will go for? > > Noel From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 13 16:14:58 2022 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 14:14:58 -0800 Subject: IBM Model C typewriter In-Reply-To: <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <0622c153d9d0091cdaed7030e8cffa14b8175106.camel@sbcglobal.net> <73abb548-1982-6b97-5965-de927c6fc1cc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5b4e195c8114844f74ede474f1a0c95a6b14ac64.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Wed, 2022-01-12 at 20:25 -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/12/22 5:49 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > I have an old IBM Model C typewriter. I can't bear to throw it > > away, > > even though it doesn't work well. The carriage doesn't advance, and > > the > > A key doesn't work. Do you know how to tune it up? > > > > If you want it, it's yours for the price of shipping. I'll probably > > take it to UPS and ask them to pack it. The old IBM Model C Typewriter has been spoken for. > > I'm sure that there are typewriter collectors that would be > interested. > But I have no idea how to connect with them. > > Aside:? I wonder if there are any newsgroups. > > I wonder if Curious Mark or Co. would be interested in it.? It seems > to > be similar to mechanical Teletypes and adding machines.? Who knows, > maybe we'd see a restoration video about it. > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 13 17:58:39 2022 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:58:39 -0800 Subject: mirror of ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk Message-ID: Looking for some tools (guide_reader, others) that were apparently only on unix.hensa.ac.uk's FTP. This hostname still exists, but directs to University of Kent's mirror service, and there is no trace of the old archive. Anybody happen to have saved any pieces of it? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Peter Graves -------------------------------------------------- From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Thu Jan 13 18:54:25 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:54:25 -0600 Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard, Please let me know the cost and I will be happy to paypal it to you. thank you, ???????? Mike ???????? +1 (773) 414-1044. On 1/12/2022 11:31 AM, Richard Loken wrote: > I have, as far as I recall, a 8" single sided full height Shugart > drive here that I swapped out of my Trash 80 Model II for a pair of > half height DSDD drives many many years ago. > > I can send it to you for the cost of postage if it is of use to you. From rlloken at telus.net Thu Jan 13 23:41:57 2022 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:41:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: 8" Floppy Drives needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jan 2022, Mike Katz wrote: > Please let me know the cost and I will be happy to paypal it to you. Okay, I will dig it up and find a box and get back to you on Monday. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 09:51:41 2022 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 15:51:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Question about SIMH Sigma-7/9 emulation References: <524061469.185868.1642175501658.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <524061469.185868.1642175501658@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, I see that SIMH incorporates the 32-bit Xerox Sigma architectures.? The Sigma 8/9/5x0 architectures are commented out but compile fine? Does anyone know if those later architectures have known issues? Has anyone succeeded in running CP-V on those emulations?? It would be amazing to run CP-V and tha various languages on a Sigma 9 emulations, not to mention the 350-point and 550-point adventures.? However, I haven't found any type of software on line.? Does anyone know of a stash somewhere? I remember that the Living Computer Museum, when it was open, briefly had a Sigma 9 up and running with CP-V, but was restricting public accounts due to some issue with the account generation mechanism.? I wonder if someone associated with the Museum might potentially have access to some CP-V tapes or images, even if the museum is closed. Thanks in advance, Dave From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 10:00:53 2022 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:00:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <948837104.185849.1642176053489@mail.yahoo.com> I ordered many of the parts from mouser.?? I also just checked the cart and some parts are now on backorder with long lead times, but may be replaceable.?? I may have skipped some parts if I had them in stock, so you would want to compare the cart against the BOM, and also I may have ordered more parts than necessary in some places to round out the quantity to the nearest price break.? At least it could be a starting point and might save a bit of time. Cheers, Dave On Thursday, January 13, 2022, 02:46:54 PM CST, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" direction, I've ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board.? When you purchase the board, you get a BOM and links to stored shopping baskets for some European vendors.? Has anyone built this in the US and stored their basket with a US vendor?? Rev 1.2k by the way, but any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences between the versions are listed. Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From db at db.net Fri Jan 14 10:05:38 2022 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:05:38 -0500 Subject: Question about SIMH Sigma-7/9 emulation In-Reply-To: <524061469.185868.1642175501658@mail.yahoo.com> References: <524061469.185868.1642175501658.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <524061469.185868.1642175501658@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 03:51:41PM +0000, Dave via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > I see that SIMH incorporates the 32-bit Xerox Sigma architectures.? The Sigma 8/9/5x0 architectures are commented out but compile fine? Does anyone know if those later architectures have known issues? > Has anyone succeeded in running CP-V on those emulations?? It would be amazing to run CP-V and tha various languages on a Sigma 9 emulations, not to mention the 350-point and 550-point adventures.? However, I haven't found any type of software on line.? Does anyone know of a stash somewhere? > I remember that the Living Computer Museum, when it was open, briefly had a Sigma 9 up and running with CP-V, but was restricting public accounts due to some issue with the account generation mechanism.? I wonder if someone associated with the Museum might potentially have access to some CP-V tapes or images, even if the museum is closed. > Thanks in advance, Try here: https://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/ My university ran a Sigma 9 with UTS then CPV A research facility (http://www.friendsofcrc.ca/Nelms-BriefHistoryOfCRC/ShirleysBaySiteName.html) Shirleys bay near Ottawa ran a Sigma 7 years ago. > > Dave > Diane/VA3DB -- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 10:06:08 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:06:08 -0500 Subject: Question about SIMH Sigma-7/9 emulation In-Reply-To: <524061469.185868.1642175501658@mail.yahoo.com> References: <524061469.185868.1642175501658.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <524061469.185868.1642175501658@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is what I have: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/simh/sds/sds_940_doc.pdf But it's for the Sigma 940 specifically, which is almost 10 years too old. I don't know if there are enough similarities between the two systems, maybe a useful peripheral config. The 940 was famous for time sharing in 1966...Hopefully you can use this as a starting point. Bill On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 10:53 AM Dave via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > I see that SIMH incorporates the 32-bit Xerox Sigma architectures. The > Sigma 8/9/5x0 architectures are commented out but compile fine Does anyone > know if those later architectures have known issues? > Has anyone succeeded in running CP-V on those emulations? It would be > amazing to run CP-V and tha various languages on a Sigma 9 emulations, not > to mention the 350-point and 550-point adventures. However, I haven't > found any type of software on line. Does anyone know of a stash somewhere? > I remember that the Living Computer Museum, when it was open, briefly had > a Sigma 9 up and running with CP-V, but was restricting public accounts due > to some issue with the account generation mechanism. I wonder if someone > associated with the Museum might potentially have access to some CP-V tapes > or images, even if the museum is closed. > Thanks in advance, > > Dave > From shumaker at att.net Fri Jan 14 10:19:41 2022 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:19:41 -0800 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Seems like a very useful gadget.? Any suggestions for a US source? Steve On 1/13/2022 1:18 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I have a Digikey shopping cart for most of the items and another for Mouser > for the rest of the items but mine was Rev "i". I did this back in August > and I looked at the cart and noticed that some of the items may have > substitutes now. I know I had to do a few substitutes when I followed the > BOM even back then. I'll post them here but please be careful and check > the BOM from the RTC (Retro Chip Tester) Google site you were emailed > against these carts. Again, you may have to make some substitutes and > some of the other components may not line up exactly but that's the nature > of these pre-created carts, unfortunately. It will at least give you a > good start: Note, I ordered from a Digikey.ca site but I created an > identical US cart for a friend in the US that was building one as well. > Again, triple check everything. > > Digikey US cart: https://www.digikey.com/short/d9vrt54z > Mouse CA cart for 4 items not at Digikey (but they may be there now?): > https://www.mouser.ca/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e707cf7c4 > > BTW, good choice on a Christmas present. You will wonder how you did > without it. > Hope this helps, > Santo > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 3:46 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" direction, I've >> ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you purchase the board, you >> get >> a BOM and links to stored shopping baskets for some European vendors. Has >> anyone built this in the US and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev >> 1.2k by the way, but any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences >> between the versions are listed. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill S. >> >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 14 10:49:42 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:49:42 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0f7701d80966$bac50d60$304f2820$@verizon.net> He just added 2708 programming to it. Which is extremely useful. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of s shumaker via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? Seems like a very useful gadget. Any suggestions for a US source? Steve On 1/13/2022 1:18 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I have a Digikey shopping cart for most of the items and another for > Mouser for the rest of the items but mine was Rev "i". I did this > back in August and I looked at the cart and noticed that some of the > items may have substitutes now. I know I had to do a few substitutes > when I followed the BOM even back then. I'll post them here but > please be careful and check the BOM from the RTC (Retro Chip Tester) Google site you were emailed > against these carts. Again, you may have to make some substitutes and > some of the other components may not line up exactly but that's the > nature of these pre-created carts, unfortunately. It will at least > give you a good start: Note, I ordered from a Digikey.ca site but I > created an identical US cart for a friend in the US that was building one as well. > Again, triple check everything. > > Digikey US cart: https://www.digikey.com/short/d9vrt54z > Mouse CA cart for 4 items not at Digikey (but they may be there now?): > https://www.mouser.ca/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e707 > cf7c4 > > BTW, good choice on a Christmas present. You will wonder how you did > without it. > Hope this helps, > Santo > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 3:46 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" >> direction, I've ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you >> purchase the board, you get a BOM and links to stored shopping >> baskets for some European vendors. Has anyone built this in the US >> and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev 1.2k by the way, but >> any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences between the >> versions are listed. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill S. >> >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 14 11:16:00 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:16:00 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: <0f7701d80966$bac50d60$304f2820$@verizon.net> References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> <0f7701d80966$bac50d60$304f2820$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0f7a01d8096a$676cb330$36461990$@verizon.net> Oh, US source, no. You have to buy straight from Stephan. But there is a guy on ebay who builds and sells them. But you'll pay a premium. I considered it, but I like to build things myself. The parts scavenger hunt? Not so much. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Sudbrink via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:50 AM To: 's shumaker' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? He just added 2708 programming to it. Which is extremely useful. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of s shumaker via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? Seems like a very useful gadget. Any suggestions for a US source? Steve On 1/13/2022 1:18 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I have a Digikey shopping cart for most of the items and another for > Mouser for the rest of the items but mine was Rev "i". I did this > back in August and I looked at the cart and noticed that some of the > items may have substitutes now. I know I had to do a few substitutes > when I followed the BOM even back then. I'll post them here but > please be careful and check the BOM from the RTC (Retro Chip Tester) Google site you were emailed > against these carts. Again, you may have to make some substitutes and > some of the other components may not line up exactly but that's the > nature of these pre-created carts, unfortunately. It will at least > give you a good start: Note, I ordered from a Digikey.ca site but I > created an identical US cart for a friend in the US that was building one as well. > Again, triple check everything. > > Digikey US cart: https://www.digikey.com/short/d9vrt54z > Mouse CA cart for 4 items not at Digikey (but they may be there now?): > https://www.mouser.ca/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e707 > cf7c4 > > BTW, good choice on a Christmas present. You will wonder how you did > without it. > Hope this helps, > Santo > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 3:46 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" >> direction, I've ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you >> purchase the board, you get a BOM and links to stored shopping >> baskets for some European vendors. Has anyone built this in the US >> and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev 1.2k by the way, but >> any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences between the >> versions are listed. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill S. >> >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 12:23:15 2022 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:23:15 -0800 Subject: Question about SIMH Sigma-7/9 emulation In-Reply-To: <524061469.185868.1642175501658@mail.yahoo.com> References: <524061469.185868.1642175501658.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <524061469.185868.1642175501658@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Sorry I do not have a CP-V image to send you, but please post any progress you make here. I know others would be interested. Lee Courtney On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 7:53 AM Dave via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > I see that SIMH incorporates the 32-bit Xerox Sigma architectures. The > Sigma 8/9/5x0 architectures are commented out but compile fine Does anyone > know if those later architectures have known issues? > Has anyone succeeded in running CP-V on those emulations? It would be > amazing to run CP-V and tha various languages on a Sigma 9 emulations, not > to mention the 350-point and 550-point adventures. However, I haven't > found any type of software on line. Does anyone know of a stash somewhere? > I remember that the Living Computer Museum, when it was open, briefly had > a Sigma 9 up and running with CP-V, but was restricting public accounts due > to some issue with the account generation mechanism. I wonder if someone > associated with the Museum might potentially have access to some CP-V tapes > or images, even if the museum is closed. > Thanks in advance, > > Dave > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From shumaker at att.net Fri Jan 14 13:01:38 2022 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:01:38 -0800 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: <0f7a01d8096a$676cb330$36461990$@verizon.net> References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> <0f7701d80966$bac50d60$304f2820$@verizon.net> <0f7a01d8096a$676cb330$36461990$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <73dd120f-624a-79b7-c7e7-4223d359e506@att.net> Ya except his web page say no US sales... is he being flexible if one asks nicely? Steve On 1/14/2022 9:16 AM, William Sudbrink wrote: > Oh, US source, no. You have to buy straight from Stephan. > But there is a guy on ebay who builds and sells them. > But you'll pay a premium. I considered it, but I like to build things myself. > > The parts scavenger hunt? Not so much. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Sudbrink via cctalk > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:50 AM > To: 's shumaker' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? > > He just added 2708 programming to it. Which is extremely useful. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of s shumaker via cctalk > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:20 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? > > Seems like a very useful gadget. Any suggestions for a US source? > > Steve > > On 1/13/2022 1:18 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> >> I have a Digikey shopping cart for most of the items and another for >> Mouser for the rest of the items but mine was Rev "i". I did this >> back in August and I looked at the cart and noticed that some of the >> items may have substitutes now. I know I had to do a few substitutes >> when I followed the BOM even back then. I'll post them here but >> please be careful and check the BOM from the RTC (Retro Chip Tester) Google site you were emailed >> against these carts. Again, you may have to make some substitutes and >> some of the other components may not line up exactly but that's the >> nature of these pre-created carts, unfortunately. It will at least >> give you a good start: Note, I ordered from a Digikey.ca site but I >> created an identical US cart for a friend in the US that was building one as well. >> Again, triple check everything. >> >> Digikey US cart: https://www.digikey.com/short/d9vrt54z >> Mouse CA cart for 4 items not at Digikey (but they may be there now?): >> https://www.mouser.ca/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e707 >> cf7c4 >> >> BTW, good choice on a Christmas present. You will wonder how you did >> without it. >> Hope this helps, >> Santo >> >> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 3:46 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" >>> direction, I've ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you >>> purchase the board, you get a BOM and links to stored shopping >>> baskets for some European vendors. Has anyone built this in the US >>> and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev 1.2k by the way, but >>> any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences between the >>> versions are listed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill S. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 14 16:09:55 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:09:55 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: <73dd120f-624a-79b7-c7e7-4223d359e506@att.net> References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> <0f7701d80966$bac50d60$304f2820$@verizon.net> <0f7a01d8096a$676cb330$36461990$@verizon.net> <73dd120f-624a-79b7-c7e7-4223d359e506@att.net> Message-ID: <0fc801d80993$76983a40$63c8aec0$@verizon.net> I'm talking about this guy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/133957290061?hash=item1f307a084d%3Ag%3ASPMAAOSwTpJhr8DA&nma=true&si=Jv7lwO0W4lizYwsCX3KDWMC0wiA%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 He's in the US. -----Original Message----- From: s shumaker [mailto:shumaker at att.net] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 2:02 PM To: William Sudbrink ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? Ya except his web page say no US sales... is he being flexible if one asks nicely? Steve On 1/14/2022 9:16 AM, William Sudbrink wrote: > Oh, US source, no. You have to buy straight from Stephan. > But there is a guy on ebay who builds and sells them. > But you'll pay a premium. I considered it, but I like to build things myself. > > The parts scavenger hunt? Not so much. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > William Sudbrink via cctalk > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:50 AM > To: 's shumaker' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? > > He just added 2708 programming to it. Which is extremely useful. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of s > shumaker via cctalk > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:20 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? > > Seems like a very useful gadget. Any suggestions for a US source? > > Steve > > On 1/13/2022 1:18 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> >> I have a Digikey shopping cart for most of the items and another for >> Mouser for the rest of the items but mine was Rev "i". I did this >> back in August and I looked at the cart and noticed that some of the >> items may have substitutes now. I know I had to do a few substitutes >> when I followed the BOM even back then. I'll post them here but >> please be careful and check the BOM from the RTC (Retro Chip Tester) Google site you were emailed >> against these carts. Again, you may have to make some substitutes and >> some of the other components may not line up exactly but that's the >> nature of these pre-created carts, unfortunately. It will at least >> give you a good start: Note, I ordered from a Digikey.ca site but I >> created an identical US cart for a friend in the US that was building one as well. >> Again, triple check everything. >> >> Digikey US cart: https://www.digikey.com/short/d9vrt54z >> Mouse CA cart for 4 items not at Digikey (but they may be there now?): >> https://www.mouser.ca/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e70 >> 7 >> cf7c4 >> >> BTW, good choice on a Christmas present. You will wonder how you did >> without it. >> Hope this helps, >> Santo >> >> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 3:46 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" >>> direction, I've ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you >>> purchase the board, you get a BOM and links to stored shopping >>> baskets for some European vendors. Has anyone built this in the US >>> and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev 1.2k by the way, but >>> any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences between the >>> versions are listed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill S. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From pat at vax11.net Fri Jan 14 17:28:17 2022 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:28:17 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Where did you buy the board from? The eBay linked seller seems to only sell built testers, and the UK person linked from the author's site claims to only sell in the UK. Patrick Finnegan On Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 15:46 William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" direction, I've > ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you purchase the board, you > get > a BOM and links to stored shopping baskets for some European vendors. Has > anyone built this in the US and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev > 1.2k by the way, but any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences > between the versions are listed. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill S. > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 14 17:58:38 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:58:38 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? In-Reply-To: References: <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$.ref@verizon.net> <0ecf01d808be$83db85c0$8b929140$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0fd501d809a2$a709f830$f51de890$@verizon.net> Straight from Stephan. Ask nicely and, if he has stock available, he will sell you one. Use the inquiry/contact form link on the web page: https://8bit-museum.de/sonstiges/hardware-projekte/hardware-projekte-chip-tester-english/ Bill S. From: Patrick Finnegan [mailto:pat at vax11.net] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 6:28 PM To: William Sudbrink ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, US shopping basket? Where did you buy the board from? The eBay linked seller seems to only sell built testers, and the UK person linked from the author's site claims to only sell in the UK. Patrick Finnegan On Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 15:46 William Sudbrink via cctalk > wrote: In response to my wife's "Buy yourself a Christmas present" direction, I've ordered a Retro Chip Tested Pro board. When you purchase the board, you get a BOM and links to stored shopping baskets for some European vendors. Has anyone built this in the US and stored their basket with a US vendor? Rev 1.2k by the way, but any basket would be helpful as the BOM differences between the versions are listed. Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 16 00:39:30 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 06:39:30 -0000 Subject: Testing the H745 Regulator Message-ID: <00c001d80aa3$d1093c20$731bb460$@ntlworld.com> I am going to be moving on to testing some H745 regulators. If I understand the schematic correctly the +15V input is the reference voltage used to regulate the -15V output, is that correct? If so, then presumably it doesn't need a whole lot of current, is that right? Thanks Rob From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jan 17 10:39:38 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:39:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Looking_for_CONAR_CCTV=C2=A0_TV_camera_CONAR?= =?UTF-8?Q?_WERE_KITS_FROM_NATIONAL_RADIO_COMPANY_?= References: <1134604107.485964.1642437578923.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1134604107.485964.1642437578923@mail.yahoo.com> Looking for CONAR CCTV? TV camera CONAR WERE KITS FROM NATIONAL RADIO COMPANY want books parts assembled units whole units? broken units-- I lust for one in the box un-assembled too! anything anything anything? related? toi this? camera? collecting up stories and folklore from others that may have? built one, owned one or? even just lusted? for? one!reply using the? following? ??SMECC CONAR TV CAMERA HISTORY PROJECT?? ? ?as? email reply? title? and? send? to?couryhouse at aol.comdrop me a line off list? with? first? word? CONAR? in subj. line? thx....Thanks in advance and stay well....Ed Sharpe? Archivist? for? SMECC From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 18 09:33:25 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:33:25 +0000 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands Message-ID: https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg That's after sitting parked a couple months. I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan had been re-banded with a boiled 3M band and run for years like that with no shedding. I have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is also fine, minimal/no shed. So, I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear Amazon cheap "plastibands" are perhaps totally incompatible with tape. I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs without having to destroy them constantly. Thanks, Jonathan From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jan 18 10:21:41 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:21:41 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> On Jan 18, 2022, at 7:33 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs without having to destroy them constantly. As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These tapes are *HOW* old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? Can you emulate the tape device? Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 18 10:22:31 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:22:31 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/18/22 07:33, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg > > That's after sitting parked a couple months. I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan had been re-banded with a boiled 3M band and run for years like that with no shedding. I have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is also fine, minimal/no shed. So, I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear Amazon cheap "plastibands" are perhaps totally incompatible with tape. > > I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs without having to destroy them constantly. > Big difference here--Al and I are interested in getting the stuff off and tossing the cart afterwards. You should be warned that Plastibands do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot be stretched without breaking. And I've got factory 3M carts with the original bands where the same thing has happened--it's just harder to see. To be clear (no pun intended), I wipe the clear ones down with isopropanol before installing. Regardless, they're all TPU. P.S. If you're interested in fun, try re-banding a TR-7 cart successfully. My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. It's an old, cheap (for the time) medium with a fatal design flaw. --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jan 18 10:58:08 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:58:08 -0500 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> > As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These tapes are *HOW* old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? Well, you gotta use something to back up those ESDI drives. I'm finding the TK50's and TK70's to be pretty good, the big massive problem with them is those two pulleys having the grease dried up. Since one of them runs the tape tachometer they need to spin freely and smoothly. Count the turns on the top bolt as you remove it, take off the pulleys, lubricate or replace the bearings, reassemble, good for another 20 years or so. QIC.... Yeah that's not going to work well. Times change. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 18 11:58:40 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:58:40 -0700 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4198a9db-f76b-ba05-c2d5-b0d0a093b8f5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/18/22 8:33 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg Ouch! With my luck, that would have been the index / start of tape marker rendering the rest of the tape mostly unusable. > That's after sitting parked a couple months. Um .... I would naively think that would invalidate any test / concern unless it was specifically for the problem that you're describing. > I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan had been re-banded with a boiled > 3M band and run for years like that with no shedding. Is that belt or tape media? I (mis)took it to be tape media. > I have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is also fine, > minimal/no shed. So, I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear > Amazon cheap "plastibands" are perhaps totally incompatible with tape. My naive understanding was that they were Good Enough? to get data off of the tape as in one (or a few) last hurrah(s) for data recovery. (Comparing multiple reads.) > I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to > *run* QICs without having to destroy them constantly. I wince at the idea of running with QIC tape. But my experience is with QIC-80 tapes of the '90s which were so unreliable as to be in the same category as AOL floppy disks during the late '90s around the transition to CD-ROMs. As in I would trust an AOL floppy disk to better hold my data for a week than I would a QIC-80 tape to hold data for a month, much less a year. ...and I didn't even trust an AOL floppy to go from computer to computer for 5 minutes. -- Talk about a race to the bottom for quality. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 18 12:09:12 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 18:09:12 +0000 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT&T UNIX PC, etc. > As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These > tapes are HOW old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all > like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make > sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? Works well enough for my needs :) I've got a small stack of QICs I use primarily with the Suns, they are reliable enough. Again, we're not storing launch codes on these or shooting them to the moon or something, I just want tape bands that don't destroy tape. Thanks, Jonathan From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 18 12:11:20 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 18:11:20 +0000 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <4198a9db-f76b-ba05-c2d5-b0d0a093b8f5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4198a9db-f76b-ba05-c2d5-b0d0a093b8f5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > I wince at the idea of running with QIC tape. But my experience is with > QIC-80 tapes of the '90s Yes, small ftape QIC-80s were certainly in the "not great" category! Thanks, Jonathan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 18 12:15:24 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:15:24 -0700 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/18/22 11:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like > Sun3/Sun4, AT&T UNIX PC, etc. Okay. I can see that. However, "couple (of) months" seems incongruent with "day-to-day". I am assuming that the day-to-day operation to mean that the source data is still accessible on the source system. As such, it's probably simply a matter of annoyance when a QIC* fails and you must re-do the process that was using it. *Can I use /just/ QIC as a proper name or should I say /QIC/ /cartridge/ analogous to VIN number? > Works well enough for my needs :) I've got a small stack of QICs I > use primarily with the Suns, they are reliable enough. Again, we're > not storing launch codes on these or shooting them to the moon or > something, I just want tape bands that don't destroy tape. ACK -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 18 12:21:08 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 18:21:08 +0000 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > However, "couple (of) months" seems incongruent with "day-to-day". I don't do a reinstall of SunOS every day, though! > I am assuming that the day-to-day operation to mean that the source data > is still accessible on the source system. As such, it's probably simply > a matter of annoyance when a QIC* fails and you must re-do the process > that was using it. Yeah, it's not like irreplaceable data is being lost. But when they fail, you have to at least re-band another tape, and with this stuff pulling oxide off, probably clean the drive too. And of course write a new tape out. > *Can I use /just/ QIC as a proper name or should I say /QIC/ /cartridge/ > analogous to VIN number? "Tape" is I think what most people call them :P Thanks, Jonathan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 18 12:40:59 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:40:59 -0700 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <36325714-dca9-c528-2d47-d9df5ecd117c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/18/22 11:21 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > I don't do a reinstall of SunOS every day, though! Fair enough. If I had a process where something might fail in between uses, I'd augment the process to re-write the image to a (new instance of) tape before I try to use it. > Yeah, it's not like irreplaceable data is being lost. But when they > fail, you have to at least re-band another tape, and with this stuff > pulling oxide off, probably clean the drive too. And of course write > a new tape out. I get that. I was actually thinking of something more dastardly like a process that generates data as a one and done. As such the entire process that generates the data needs to be re-done. Extrapolate backwards /after/ doing the physical tape maintenance. > "Tape" is I think what most people call them :P Ya. But "tape" is not descriptive in my opinion, especially when you have other types of tape; DLT, DAT, 9-track, etc. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 18 12:54:38 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:54:38 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation Message-ID: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> I have quite a few Motorola Microsystems Exorciser boards including this 6800 single board computer for which I am lacking any documentation. I've seen a brochure in Al's collection on Bitsavers but haven't found any details that might discuss jumper settings or even better, a schematic. Wondering if anyone would have a user manual or other detailed docs for this board? M68MM01A2 -- has 6800 CPU, 6875 1.0 MHz clock generator, 6850 ACIA and MC14411 baud rate clock, (4) EPROM/ROM sockets and (2) 6821 PIA sockets with the 86-pin Exorciser edge connector. I'm interested in seeing if I can minimally modify it to have a similar memory map to the Altair 680 so that the Altair's PROM monitor could run on it. Thanks! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jan 18 13:09:24 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:09:24 -0500 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Not exactly a match but I do have this, if it helps: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/motorola/mek6800d2/MEK6800D2.pdf Bill On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:54 PM Chris Elmquist via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I have quite a few Motorola Microsystems Exorciser boards including this > 6800 single board computer for which I am lacking any documentation. > > I've seen a brochure in Al's collection on Bitsavers but haven't found > any details that might discuss jumper settings or even better, > a schematic. > > Wondering if anyone would have a user manual or other detailed docs for > this board? > > M68MM01A2 -- has 6800 CPU, 6875 1.0 MHz clock generator, 6850 ACIA and > MC14411 baud rate clock, (4) EPROM/ROM sockets and (2) 6821 PIA sockets > with the 86-pin Exorciser edge connector. > > I'm interested in seeing if I can minimally modify it to have a similar > memory map to the Altair 680 so that the Altair's PROM monitor could > run on it. > > Thanks! > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 18 13:12:56 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:12:56 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20220118191256.GG7662@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 02:09PM -0500), Bill Degnan wrote: > Not exactly a match but I do have this, if it helps: > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/motorola/mek6800d2/MEK6800D2.pdf Thanks Bill. I have that too and in fact a couple D2 boards so I am set there. This is a specific detail so that I can make mods to the board without having to reverse engineer it first. But I suspect it will come to that. Thanks anyway! Chris > On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:54 PM Chris Elmquist via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > I have quite a few Motorola Microsystems Exorciser boards including this > > 6800 single board computer for which I am lacking any documentation. > > > > I've seen a brochure in Al's collection on Bitsavers but haven't found > > any details that might discuss jumper settings or even better, > > a schematic. > > > > Wondering if anyone would have a user manual or other detailed docs for > > this board? > > > > M68MM01A2 -- has 6800 CPU, 6875 1.0 MHz clock generator, 6850 ACIA and > > MC14411 baud rate clock, (4) EPROM/ROM sockets and (2) 6821 PIA sockets > > with the 86-pin Exorciser edge connector. > > > > I'm interested in seeing if I can minimally modify it to have a similar > > memory map to the Altair 680 so that the Altair's PROM monitor could > > run on it. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chris > > -- > > Chris Elmquist > > > > -- Chris Elmquist From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jan 18 13:34:21 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:34:21 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <3FBFCD2C-08D6-4CC5-8D3B-26A1786E7399@avanthar.com> On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These > tapes are *HOW* old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? > > Well, you gotta use something to back up those ESDI drives. > > I'm finding the TK50's and TK70's to be pretty good, the big massive problem with them is those two pulleys having the grease dried up. Since one of them runs the tape tachometer they need to spin freely and smoothly. > > Count the turns on the top bolt as you remove it, take off the pulleys, lubricate or replace the bearings, reassemble, good for another 20 years or so. > > QIC.... Yeah that's not going to work well. Times change. I?m also not using MFM or ESDI drives. I converted my Q-Bus HW to SCSI 20+ years ago. When I get it back up and running, I plan to convert it to SCSI2SD. OTOH, I am trying, for some insane reason to get a DSSI system going. I started converting my SCSI based DEC HW to SCSI2SD last summer. Having said that, that?s good news on the TK50?s and TK70?s, I have a couple boxes in my office (so somewhat nicely stored) that I need to read, in my nonexistent free time. My plan has been to buy a refurbished SBB that will read them. I?m more likely to trust the TK50 in my PDP-11 than the 4mm DAT. I?ve read 30 year old 9-track tapes on production hardware, and I?ve read very old TK50?s (as well as other DLT-style tapes). Things like QIC, 8mm, and 4mm, I try my best to avoid on production systems. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jan 18 13:38:12 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:38:12 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <032DB3AE-D618-414D-B96B-E36438FDAAD2@avanthar.com> > On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > >> My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival > storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. > > Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT&T UNIX PC, etc. Can you do tape operations over TCP/IP to a machine with a better drive, or a VTL? On VMS, the last tape backups I did on a physical box, were to a virtual tape drive on a SIMH/VAX system. Zane From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Jan 18 14:01:25 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:01:25 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I think it might be easier to modify the 680 prom for the I/O addresses of the board rather than modify the board to match the ROM. Especially if the address decoding for the I/O is done in PAL (10L8 for example). Some 6800 address decoding was done with 74LS138s.? This had the potential to be inefficient in terms of memory usage or if the '138s were cascaded then propagation delay could become an issue. On 1/18/2022 12:54 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > I have quite a few Motorola Microsystems Exorciser boards including this > 6800 single board computer for which I am lacking any documentation. > > I've seen a brochure in Al's collection on Bitsavers but haven't found > any details that might discuss jumper settings or even better, > a schematic. > > Wondering if anyone would have a user manual or other detailed docs for > this board? > > M68MM01A2 -- has 6800 CPU, 6875 1.0 MHz clock generator, 6850 ACIA and > MC14411 baud rate clock, (4) EPROM/ROM sockets and (2) 6821 PIA sockets > with the 86-pin Exorciser edge connector. > > I'm interested in seeing if I can minimally modify it to have a similar > memory map to the Altair 680 so that the Altair's PROM monitor could > run on it. > > Thanks! > > Chris From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 18 14:11:00 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:11:00 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <032DB3AE-D618-414D-B96B-E36438FDAAD2@avanthar.com> References: <8D31BBAF-41F7-4E42-91B7-416A55B0DFF7@avanthar.com> <144a1fca-1b2f-0f46-9d6a-67b33d47ebe6@alembic.crystel.com> <032DB3AE-D618-414D-B96B-E36438FDAAD2@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <41b5250d-1c1a-5e3b-2dad-e94e3359ac17@sydex.com> On 1/18/22 11:38, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> >>> My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival >> storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. >> >> Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT&T UNIX PC, etc. > > Can you do tape operations over TCP/IP to a machine with a better drive, or a VTL? On VMS, the last tape backups I did on a physical box, were to a virtual tape drive on a SIMH/VAX system. If this is a SCSI QIC drive, I'd suggest moving to DLT, 8mm or even DDS. None of these suffer from the "broken bad" problem. SCSI tape drives as a class, are pretty much interchangeable as there's an ANSI spec for the command set. If it's a QIC-02 interface, you might want to look into emulation using an MCU. QIC-02 interface is stupid simple and any moderately capable MCU should be able to generate the required signals. You can probably fit the contents of every QIC tape that you own on a single SD card. QIC-36 is going to be a bit more difficult, but there were (and maybe still are) QIC-36-to-QIC-02 bridge boards around. My .02 for whatever its depreciated value is worth. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 18 14:14:35 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:14:35 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 02:01PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: > I think it might be easier to modify the 680 prom for the I/O addresses of > the board rather than modify the board to match the ROM. Agreed-- except the goal, which I failed to elaborate on, is to come up with an Altair 680 development environment so that someone can port some code to the platform without having the real thing. I wanted to make that environment as close to real as possible (without having front panel switches and LEDs)-- which means having the I/O in the same place as the original as well as the authentic PROM code running. > Especially if the address decoding for the I/O is done in PAL (10L8 for > example). No PALs on the board but there is a bipolar PROM (82S129). I'm not adverse to making a new one of those or bodging something that drops into that socket to modify the decoding if neccessary. I was just hoping to not have to butcher the board itself too much. > Some 6800 address decoding was done with 74LS138s.? This had the potential > to be inefficient in terms of memory usage or if the '138s were cascaded > then propagation delay could become an issue. Yes. This seems to be a limited function CPU board and I suspect it takes that approach just to get the four PROMs and I/O decoded very coarsely. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From athornton at gmail.com Tue Jan 18 14:38:32 2022 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:38:32 -0700 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425FF8F1-538B-48CB-B1ED-3B5C51FE4B82@gmail.com> > From: Grant Taylor > > I wince at the idea of running with QIC tape. But my experience is with > QIC-80 tapes of the '90s which were so unreliable as to be in the same > category as AOL floppy disks during the late '90s around the transition > to CD-ROMs. As in I would trust an AOL floppy disk to better hold my > data for a week than I would a QIC-80 tape to hold data for a month, > much less a year. ...and I didn't even trust an AOL floppy to go from > computer to computer for 5 minutes. -- Talk about a race to the bottom > for quality. I wish I'd kept some. I had some AOL CDs from slightly later that made decent coasters for decades. Although I guess with the shutter, the floppy wouldn't really have made a very good coaster. Adam From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 18 15:12:21 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:12:21 -0700 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <425FF8F1-538B-48CB-B1ED-3B5C51FE4B82@gmail.com> References: <425FF8F1-538B-48CB-B1ED-3B5C51FE4B82@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0e76febb-c58a-b942-9b38-2c5872935d4d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/18/22 1:38 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > I wish I'd kept some. I had some AOL CDs from slightly later that > made decent coasters for decades. Although I guess with the shutter, > the floppy wouldn't really have made a very good coaster. Chuckle. When I think of "coasters" I think of CD-ROMs, particularly bad burns on CD-Rs. That being said, I do have some rubber coasters in the shape of 3?" floppy disks. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 18 15:21:08 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:21:08 +0000 (WET) Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <425FF8F1-538B-48CB-B1ED-3B5C51FE4B82@gmail.com> References: Message-ID: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 at 13:38:32 -0700, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > I wish I'd kept some. I had some AOL CDs from slightly later that made > decent coasters for decades. Although I guess with the shutter, the floppy > wouldn't really have made a very good coaster. > I can only conclude you needed something to save the surface on one of these... https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Adam > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Jan 18 15:37:55 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:37:55 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> If the software is using ROM routines then the address doesn't matter for the applications.? If not, you can create an abstraction layer (set of drivers for the ACIA, 6875 Timer and PIA) and if all of the code is written to the abstraction layer then all you need to do is link in the appropriate binary for the abstraction layer. This will work for both C and machine language. On 1/18/2022 2:14 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 02:01PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: >> I think it might be easier to modify the 680 prom for the I/O addresses of >> the board rather than modify the board to match the ROM. > Agreed-- except the goal, which I failed to elaborate on, is to come > up with an Altair 680 development environment so that someone can port > some code to the platform without having the real thing. I wanted to > make that environment as close to real as possible (without having front > panel switches and LEDs)-- which means having the I/O in the same place > as the original as well as the authentic PROM code running. > >> Especially if the address decoding for the I/O is done in PAL (10L8 for >> example). > No PALs on the board but there is a bipolar PROM (82S129). I'm not > adverse to making a new one of those or bodging something that drops > into that socket to modify the decoding if neccessary. I was just hoping > to not have to butcher the board itself too much. > >> Some 6800 address decoding was done with 74LS138s.? This had the potential >> to be inefficient in terms of memory usage or if the '138s were cascaded >> then propagation delay could become an issue. > Yes. This seems to be a limited function CPU board and I suspect it takes > that approach just to get the four PROMs and I/O decoded very coarsely. > > Chris From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Jan 18 15:40:05 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:40:05 -0600 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5e69d132-36ef-e6da-e387-6f1b79e3a689@12bitsbest.com> I just love that table!!!! On 1/18/2022 3:21 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 at 13:38:32 -0700, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> I wish I'd kept some. I had some AOL CDs from slightly later that made >> decent coasters for decades. Although I guess with the shutter, the floppy >> wouldn't really have made a very good coaster. >> > I can only conclude you needed something to save the surface on one of these... > > https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > >> Adam >> From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 18 15:45:03 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:45:03 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 03:37PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: > If the software is using ROM routines then the address doesn't matter for > the applications.? If not, you can create an abstraction layer (set of > drivers for the ACIA, 6875 Timer and PIA) and if all of the code is written > to the abstraction layer then all you need to do is link in the appropriate > binary for the abstraction layer. This will work for both C and machine > language. Understood but I don't want to force the developer to make different code for this machine than for the real 680. This is an attempt to get him something that he can use to make code for the real 680 without having a real 680. I have a real 680 myself but I'm not up to shipping it around, loaning it out, etc. yet still want to help the effort. But since I am not the one actually doing the effort, I wanted to help by providing something that was usable without having to change his approach. Thanks for the suggestions though. Chris > On 1/18/2022 2:14 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 02:01PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: > > > I think it might be easier to modify the 680 prom for the I/O addresses of > > > the board rather than modify the board to match the ROM. > > Agreed-- except the goal, which I failed to elaborate on, is to come > > up with an Altair 680 development environment so that someone can port > > some code to the platform without having the real thing. I wanted to > > make that environment as close to real as possible (without having front > > panel switches and LEDs)-- which means having the I/O in the same place > > as the original as well as the authentic PROM code running. > > > > > Especially if the address decoding for the I/O is done in PAL (10L8 for > > > example). > > No PALs on the board but there is a bipolar PROM (82S129). I'm not > > adverse to making a new one of those or bodging something that drops > > into that socket to modify the decoding if neccessary. I was just hoping > > to not have to butcher the board itself too much. > > > > > Some 6800 address decoding was done with 74LS138s.? This had the potential > > > to be inefficient in terms of memory usage or if the '138s were cascaded > > > then propagation delay could become an issue. > > Yes. This seems to be a limited function CPU board and I suspect it takes > > that approach just to get the four PROMs and I/O decoded very coarsely. > > > > Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 18 15:52:49 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:52:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I can only conclude you needed something to save the surface on one of these... > > https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ I have a RAMAC platter. (24" diameter; arguably FIRST hard disk, from 1958?; when they wouldn't let Nikita Krushchev into Disneyland, they took him to the IBM factory, instead.) It has enough damage to no longer be usable in a drive. I have a round patio table base. I still need a 2 foot round piece of [UV absorbing?] [tempered?] glass. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 18 15:59:57 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:59:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <5e69d132-36ef-e6da-e387-6f1b79e3a689@12bitsbest.com> References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <5e69d132-36ef-e6da-e387-6f1b79e3a689@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: >> I can only conclude you needed something to save the surface on one of >> these... >> https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ On Tue, 18 Jan 2022, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I just love that table!!!! Although the ad says "1.44 megabytes", it is a 720K. The write enable notch is not openable to write protect it, and the shutter may have lost its spring.. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 18 16:30:56 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:30:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <5e69d132-36ef-e6da-e387-6f1b79e3a689@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: What's the going price for a Cray round sofa/bench? From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 18 16:58:50 2022 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:58:50 -0800 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <5e69d132-36ef-e6da-e387-6f1b79e3a689@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: >>> I can only conclude you needed something to save the surface on one of these... >>> https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ >> >> I just love that table!!!! > > Although the ad says "1.44 megabytes", it is a 720K. > The write enable notch is not openable to write protect it, > and the shutter may have lost its spring.. The one *with* the spring working has a handy catch basin for your distal finger fragments. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Jan 18 17:35:27 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 23:35:27 +0000 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: How's about a Glitchbus board set that's compatible? I was planning on doing it anyway. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, January 18th, 2022 at 16:45, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 03:37PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: > > > If the software is using ROM routines then the address doesn't matter for > > > > the applications. If not, you can create an abstraction layer (set of > > > > drivers for the ACIA, 6875 Timer and PIA) and if all of the code is written > > > > to the abstraction layer then all you need to do is link in the appropriate > > > > binary for the abstraction layer. This will work for both C and machine > > > > language. > > Understood but I don't want to force the developer to make different code > > for this machine than for the real 680. This is an attempt to get him > > something that he can use to make code for the real 680 without having > > a real 680. > > I have a real 680 myself but I'm not up to shipping it around, loaning > > it out, etc. yet still want to help the effort. But since I am not the > > one actually doing the effort, I wanted to help by providing something > > that was usable without having to change his approach. > > Thanks for the suggestions though. > > Chris > > > On 1/18/2022 2:14 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 02:01PM -0600), Mike Katz wrote: > > > > > > > I think it might be easier to modify the 680 prom for the I/O addresses of > > > > > > > > the board rather than modify the board to match the ROM. > > > > > > > > Agreed-- except the goal, which I failed to elaborate on, is to come > > > > > > > > up with an Altair 680 development environment so that someone can port > > > > > > > > some code to the platform without having the real thing. I wanted to > > > > > > > > make that environment as close to real as possible (without having front > > > > > > > > panel switches and LEDs)-- which means having the I/O in the same place > > > > > > > > as the original as well as the authentic PROM code running. > > > > > > > Especially if the address decoding for the I/O is done in PAL (10L8 for > > > > > > > > example). > > > > > > > > No PALs on the board but there is a bipolar PROM (82S129). I'm not > > > > > > > > adverse to making a new one of those or bodging something that drops > > > > > > > > into that socket to modify the decoding if neccessary. I was just hoping > > > > > > > > to not have to butcher the board itself too much. > > > > > > > Some 6800 address decoding was done with 74LS138s. This had the potential > > > > > > > > to be inefficient in terms of memory usage or if the '138s were cascaded > > > > > > > > then propagation delay could become an issue. > > > > > > > > Yes. This seems to be a limited function CPU board and I suspect it takes > > > > > > > > that approach just to get the four PROMs and I/O decoded very coarsely. > > > > > > Chris > > Chris Elmquist From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 18 17:47:36 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:47:36 -0700 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/18/22 2:21 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ I like it! But I hate the price. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 18 18:22:18 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 18:22:18 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 11:35PM +0000), Jonathan Chapman wrote: > How's about a Glitchbus board set that's compatible? I was planning on doing it anyway. That would be very cool. Something along those lines was my plan B and I even dug out a tube of 6802's for the effort. I think I could wire up a prototype over a weekend. MC6802 is a nice "cheat" as you don't have to mess with the two-phase clock stuff. What would be really slick is an SBC that has everything on it to be either an Altair 680 or an SWTPC 6800 just by changing some jumpers, switches, etc. and putting the correct ROM monitor on the board. If there was a PROM, a 32K SRAM, an ACIA and a bonus PIA socket, along with a small amount of glue logic, I think we could run the ROM monitor for either system and a bunch of legacy code in 32K of RAM-- which would have been a big system in the day. The PIA would provide a fun GPIO capability just for toggling bits to and from the real world. The ACIA was the serial console device on the Altair and the later MP-S on the SWTPC and so you would run SWTBUG on the SWTPC personality to use that. I don't see a need for MIKBUG compatibility here, since that requires the bit-banged console via another PIA and odd external timer chip. Baud rate generator that can do 16x for 110, 300, 1200 and 9600 would be ideal. I'd want 110 for a real Teletype, 300 for Kansas City Standard tapes, 1200 for a DecWriter and 9600 so that I don't fall asleep ;-) When can I order one! :-) Thanks Jonathan, Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 18 18:31:42 2022 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:31:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/18/22 2:21 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ > > I like it! > > But I hate the price. > The problem is right there in the name of the site. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Jan 18 21:26:05 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:26:05 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <0577c7b6-c80b-790f-dcad-031629862ee9@12bitsbest.com> If you include the 6875 Timer chip, follow the data sheet carefully, it's a little tricky in its discretes (I don't remember from 40 years ago what exactly it is). The biggest disadvantage to the 6850 ACIA and 14411 Baud rate generator is the baud rate is NOT software selectable. SWTBUG was much better than MIKBUG and GMXBUG was even better. If you want to emulate both the SWTPC and Motorola board addresses I would strongly recommend some kind of programmable logic to handle the very different addressing schemes. The SS-30 I/O Bus had the address decoding on the motherboard. Each slot was allocated 4 address (the later MC6809 version upped this to 16 address.)? Where as the Motorola system addressed differently. On 1/18/2022 6:22 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 11:35PM +0000), Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> How's about a Glitchbus board set that's compatible? I was planning on doing it anyway. > That would be very cool. Something along those lines was my plan B and > I even dug out a tube of 6802's for the effort. I think I could wire > up a prototype over a weekend. MC6802 is a nice "cheat" as you don't > have to mess with the two-phase clock stuff. > > What would be really slick is an SBC that has everything on it to be > either an Altair 680 or an SWTPC 6800 just by changing some jumpers, > switches, etc. and putting the correct ROM monitor on the board. > > If there was a PROM, a 32K SRAM, an ACIA and a bonus PIA socket, along > with a small amount of glue logic, I think we could run the ROM monitor > for either system and a bunch of legacy code in 32K of RAM-- which would > have been a big system in the day. The PIA would provide a fun GPIO > capability just for toggling bits to and from the real world. > > The ACIA was the serial console device on the Altair and the later > MP-S on the SWTPC and so you would run SWTBUG on the SWTPC personality > to use that. I don't see a need for MIKBUG compatibility here, since > that requires the bit-banged console via another PIA and odd external > timer chip. Baud rate generator that can do 16x for 110, 300, 1200 and > 9600 would be ideal. I'd want 110 for a real Teletype, 300 for Kansas > City Standard tapes, 1200 for a DecWriter and 9600 so that I don't fall > asleep ;-) > > When can I order one! :-) > > Thanks Jonathan, > > Chris From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jan 19 00:32:06 2022 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:32:06 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > You should be warned that Plastibands > do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot > be stretched without breaking. > Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw this.) From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Jan 19 03:08:40 2022 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 10:08:40 +0100 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> On 19.01.22 01:22, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 11:35PM +0000), Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> How's about a Glitchbus board set that's compatible? I was planning on doing it anyway. > That would be very cool. Something along those lines was my plan B and > I even dug out a tube of 6802's for the effort. I think I could wire > up a prototype over a weekend. MC6802 is a nice "cheat" as you don't > have to mess with the two-phase clock stuff. > > What would be really slick is an SBC that has everything on it to be > either an Altair 680 or an SWTPC 6800 just by changing some jumpers, > switches, etc. and putting the correct ROM monitor on the board. Something around these lines ? https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tektronix-board-bucket-6800.54128/page-5#post-835416 Yes, it runs, I still have some PCB's left. Works with both 6800 or 6802, memory map is defined with a GAL. Jos From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jan 19 05:00:33 2022 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:00:33 +0100 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 04:47:36PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/18/22 2:21 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ > I like it! The ratios are wrong: it's about twice as thick as it ought to be. It's apparently been designed by somebody who has seen a picture of a floppy but never used one. > But I hate the price. Get a LACK table from IKEA (?6.99) and adorn it with 3D prints, or even old floppies? I'd advise against trying to machine patterns into it though as that low-end stuff is basically made of laminated cheese. From organlists1 at sonic.net Wed Jan 19 06:06:59 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 04:06:59 -0800 Subject: IBM 6731 Diskette Module Message-ID: Is anyone familiar with the IBM 6731 Diskette Module from around 1984 which gave the IBM Electronic 85 and 95 Selectric Typewriters the ability to store created documents to a 5.25" floppy diskette? There was also a 5.25" diskette which was nicknamed "IPL" for "initial program load", and an interface board which was installed into the typewriter and was referred to as the "IBM Typewriter Modularity Option". I do not have any images of the IBM 6731, but I do have an image capture from the installation and operations manual, posted here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/us8aely530s8p3a/6731diskettemodule.jpg?dl=0 You do not need a Dropbox account to view the image. Simply click on the X of the login pop up and it will disappear. Unfortunately, the only copy of this product manual I ever found was on eBay. I purchased it last month, paid USPS priority mail shipping with tracking and the post office lost it. :/ Thanks Don Resor From lists at glitchwrks.com Wed Jan 19 06:15:55 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:15:55 +0000 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 04:08, jos via cctalk wrote: > On 19.01.22 01:22, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > > > On Tuesday (01/18/2022 at 11:35PM +0000), Jonathan Chapman wrote: > > > > > How's about a Glitchbus board set that's compatible? I was planning on doing it anyway. > > > > > > That would be very cool. Something along those lines was my plan B and > > > > > > I even dug out a tube of 6802's for the effort. I think I could wire > > > > > > up a prototype over a weekend. MC6802 is a nice "cheat" as you don't > > > > > > have to mess with the two-phase clock stuff. > > > > What would be really slick is an SBC that has everything on it to be > > > > either an Altair 680 or an SWTPC 6800 just by changing some jumpers, > > > > switches, etc. and putting the correct ROM monitor on the board. > > Something around these lines ? > > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tektronix-board-bucket-6800.54128/page-5#post-835416 > > Yes, it runs, I still have some PCB's left. > > Works with both 6800 or 6802, memory map is defined with a GAL. > > Jos From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Jan 19 08:35:33 2022 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 15:35:33 +0100 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> On 19.01.22 13:15, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? With me... 20 Eur for the set of 2 + shipping. If you are in the US it is probably cheaper to order new ones locally. Note that I never completed the documentation or wrote the code for the hex keyboard. But it does run the Tektronix board-bucket BASIC via serial port ! Find more on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_BB Jos From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jan 19 09:24:36 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:24:36 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220118201435.GH7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (01/19/2022 at 03:35PM +0100), Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > On 19.01.22 13:15, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? > > With me... > 20 Eur for the set of 2 + shipping. > > If you are in the US it is probably cheaper to order new ones locally. > > Note that I never completed the documentation or wrote the code for the hex keyboard. > But it does run the Tektronix board-bucket BASIC via serial port ! > > Find more on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_BB ah ha! that's what I was looking for. Will check it out in detail. I think I am "forum challenged" as all I could see at the original link were renderings of the board. Thanks Jos. Maybe this will be the ticket... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 19 09:24:17 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 15:24:17 +0000 (WET) Subject: IBM 6731 Diskette Module In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01S8QCE6MY1O8WXTUQ@beyondthepale.ie> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 04:06:59 -0800, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > There was also a 5.25" diskette which was nicknamed "IPL" for "initial > program load", and an interface board which was installed into the > typewriter and was referred to as the "IBM Typewriter Modularity Option". > Hi Don, Apologies if you know this already but IPL / initial program load is IBM-speak for "boot". Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 19 09:46:45 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 07:46:45 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <791042c7-95c5-a135-9582-00a4df035a45@sydex.com> On 1/18/22 22:32, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> You should be warned that Plastibands >> do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot >> be stretched without breaking. >> > > Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones > that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw > this.) No, I didn't--I did keep them in a dark, cool place, however. Now, I keep bands in my freezer. --Chuck From lists at glitchwrks.com Wed Jan 19 09:48:39 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 15:48:39 +0000 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <791042c7-95c5-a135-9582-00a4df035a45@sydex.com> References: <791042c7-95c5-a135-9582-00a4df035a45@sydex.com> Message-ID: <236H9sOchnQNu2BC-208-3Rkjwu092Y5OucC5fKdrd6TDshjFcmB_yiFXAk2HcUxC0ar0nrcGd4GeD0YpMzIgCb8Nok84x5gA-gf8_subZw=@glitchwrks.com> Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide is staying on the band. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:46, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/18/22 22:32, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > > You should be warned that Plastibands > > > > > > do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot > > > > > > be stretched without breaking. > > > > Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones > > > > that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw > > > > this.) > > No, I didn't--I did keep them in a dark, cool place, however. Now, I > > keep bands in my freezer. > > --Chuck From lists at glitchwrks.com Wed Jan 19 09:49:38 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 15:49:38 +0000 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Chris, I'm probably going to order some of these on my next circuit board order (this week or next), do you want a set of them? Seems they are of course "hacking required," which is fine by me :P Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:24, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Wednesday (01/19/2022 at 03:35PM +0100), Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > > On 19.01.22 13:15, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > > > That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? > > > > With me... > > > > 20 Eur for the set of 2 + shipping. > > > > If you are in the US it is probably cheaper to order new ones locally. > > > > Note that I never completed the documentation or wrote the code for the hex keyboard. > > > > But it does run the Tektronix board-bucket BASIC via serial port ! > > > > Find more on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_BB > > ah ha! that's what I was looking for. Will check it out in detail. > > I think I am "forum challenged" as all I could see at the original link > > were renderings of the board. > > Thanks Jos. Maybe this will be the ticket... > > Chris > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Chris Elmquist From organlists1 at sonic.net Wed Jan 19 09:53:08 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (Don R) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 07:53:08 -0800 Subject: IBM 6731 Diskette Module In-Reply-To: <01S8QCE6MY1O8WXTUQ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S8QCE6MY1O8WXTUQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <744C5064-C49B-431F-B61C-87A54DBA4C26@sonic.net> My curiosity is ?what kind? of boot program did they use, was it some sort of PC Dos incarnation? There?s very little info left in IBM?s archives. I also suppose the IBM Modularity option which plugs into the CPU board of the electronic typewriter, but that too is an educated guess on my part. Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Jan 19, 2022, at 7:32 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 04:06:59 -0800, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: >> >> There was also a 5.25" diskette which was nicknamed "IPL" for "initial >> program load", and an interface board which was installed into the >> typewriter and was referred to as the "IBM Typewriter Modularity Option". >> > > Hi Don, > > Apologies if you know this already but IPL / initial program load > is IBM-speak for "boot". > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 19 09:11:34 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 15:11:34 +0000 (WET) Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <01S8QD13FWCI8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 12:00:33 +0100, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 04:47:36PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/18/22 2:21 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ >> I like it! > > The ratios are wrong: it's about twice as thick as it ought to be. It's > apparently been designed by somebody who has seen a picture of a floppy but > never used one. > Maybe the idea is that when the top gets marked, you can sand it down and paint it again multiple times so you don't need to use those matching coasters that are so hard to get nowadays? > >> But I hate the price. > > Get a LACK table from IKEA (?6.99) and adorn it with 3D prints, or even old > floppies? I'd advise against trying to machine patterns into it though as > that low-end stuff is basically made of laminated cheese. > Peter, I'm shocked to see you recommend IKEA! Have you not suffered from (physical) IKEA catalogue spam the same way we have over here? (BTW, trying to contact IKEA to get it sorted was very much like trying to contact Google except that Google doesn't have sacrificial call centre workers in a different country to intercept the complaints and lose them, Google just doesn't take calls from anyone.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Jan 19 11:05:00 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:05:00 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <3b3f86c1-e24b-e9d6-4f98-1bb508f12196@12bitsbest.com> <20220118214502.GI7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <111b754a-b021-413f-f7cf-9e56c9465aba@12bitsbest.com> Johnathan, I saw you will be ordering boards pretty soon. I need to order some boards for my PDP-8/E but I've never ordered boards before. What board house do you use?? Have you ever specified gold fingers before? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, ?????????? Mike ??? ??? ??? +1 (773) 414-1044 On 1/19/2022 9:49 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Chris, > > I'm probably going to order some of these on my next circuit board order (this week or next), do you want a set of them? Seems they are of course "hacking required," which is fine by me :P > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:24, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wednesday (01/19/2022 at 03:35PM +0100), Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 19.01.22 13:15, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? >>> With me... >>> >>> 20 Eur for the set of 2 + shipping. >>> >>> If you are in the US it is probably cheaper to order new ones locally. >>> >>> Note that I never completed the documentation or wrote the code for the hex keyboard. >>> >>> But it does run the Tektronix board-bucket BASIC via serial port ! >>> >>> Find more on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_BB >> ah ha! that's what I was looking for. Will check it out in detail. >> >> I think I am "forum challenged" as all I could see at the original link >> >> were renderings of the board. >> >> Thanks Jos. Maybe this will be the ticket... >> >> Chris >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Chris Elmquist From organlists1 at sonic.net Wed Jan 19 05:56:38 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 03:56:38 -0800 Subject: IBM 6731 Diskette Module Message-ID: Is anyone familiar with the IBM 6731 Diskette Module from around 1984 which gave the IBM Electronic 85 and 95 Selectric Typewriters the ability to store created documents to a 5.25" floppy diskette? There was also a 5.25" diskette which was nicknamed "IPL" for "initial program load", and an interface board which was installed into the typewriter and was referred to as the "IBM Typewriter Modularity Option". I do not have any images of the IBM 6731, but I do have an image capture from the installation and operations manual, posted here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/us8aely530s8p3a/6731diskettemodule.jpg?dl=0 You do not need a Dropbox account to view the image. Simply click on the X of the login pop up and it will disappear. Unfortunately, the only copy of this product manual I ever found was on eBay. I purchased it last month, paid USPS priority mail shipping with tracking and the post office lost it. :/ Thanks Don Resor From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 11:15:26 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 18:15:26 +0100 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: <01S8QD13FWCI8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <01S8QD13FWCI8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 16:59, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > (BTW, trying to contact IKEA to get it sorted was very much like trying to > contact Google except that Google doesn't have sacrificial call centre workers > in a different country to intercept the complaints and lose them, Google just > doesn't take calls from anyone.) Actually, I feel a strange and atypical urge to defend IKEA here. I bought a 2nd hand IKEA bed off some chap on Fesse Bouc a few years ago. He said his girlfriend didn't like it and it gave her back ache. It was partly disassembled. When I came to rebuilt it, using a PDF of the instructions from the WWW, I discovered an important screw was missing. I went to my local IKEA, showed them the pic and the name of the bed, and they just gave me the right screw, free of charge for a 2nd hand item. When I came to assemble the bed, I discovered that the fool had assembled it wrongly in the first place and used the "missing" bolt in the wrong hole, making the whole frame slightly twisted and that's probably why his G/F didn't like it. But kudos to IKEA who publish the instructions for free online, facilitating the 2nd hand market, and to their after-care which includes no-questions-asked parts even for later owners. They also swapped a backpack of mine when a critical zip failed, even though I bought it in a different country and had no receipt. I think maybe the thing is to go there, not try to phone them. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 11:17:38 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 18:17:38 +0100 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 12:00, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > Get a LACK table from IKEA (?6.99) Speaking of LACK, I guess most people might know this, but it's the same size as a standard 19" rack and can be used to hold rackmount kit. https://wiki.eth0.nl/index.php/LackRack This may be best employed in the home if you are deaf or hard-of-hearing, though, from my own experience of rackmount servers on the coffee table... -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From lists at glitchwrks.com Wed Jan 19 12:14:22 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 18:14:22 +0000 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <111b754a-b021-413f-f7cf-9e56c9465aba@12bitsbest.com> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> <111b754a-b021-413f-f7cf-9e56c9465aba@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <1IP1PXdIlnC8ooUZu7npkLQvL09UH6b4qP6sSowyz3121wu6mKdnebQNP8xeJvAyhcQtB97ZjCEQjkIbJz8nIOgvX_HXwKOnviPeExnwgps=@glitchwrks.com> Mike, We use PCB Cart for boards with hard gold edge contacts, like our DEC prototyping board, Apple II protoboard, XT-IDE, etc. They are the same Chinese board house used by s100computers.com and N8VEM/RetroBrew Computers. Results are pretty good for the price. Expect to order 25 to make hard gold edge plating worthwhile. It'll pretty much double the price of the board, but PCB Cart does proper selective hard gold, not "heavy ENIG" (not a thing) or some other nonsense. A lot of the cheaper places will only plate "hard gold" over ENIG, which I assume means they don't actually have a selective process at all. Make sure to specify an edge chamfer if it's a typical card edge connector, otherwise it'll be routed square and a little difficult to insert/you'll have to dress it down with a file. If practical for the board, remove unused contacts from the edge connector. They charge per-contact as a way to guesstimate their gold costs. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 12:05, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Johnathan, > > I saw you will be ordering boards pretty soon. > > I need to order some boards for my PDP-8/E but I've never ordered boards > > before. > > What board house do you use? Have you ever specified gold fingers before? > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Mike > > +1 (773) 414-1044 > > On 1/19/2022 9:49 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > I'm probably going to order some of these on my next circuit board order (this week or next), do you want a set of them? Seems they are of course "hacking required," which is fine by me :P > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jonathan > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:24, Chris Elmquist via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > On Wednesday (01/19/2022 at 03:35PM +0100), Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > On 19.01.22 13:15, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? > > > > > > > > > > With me... > > > > > > > > 20 Eur for the set of 2 + shipping. > > > > > > > > If you are in the US it is probably cheaper to order new ones locally. > > > > > > > > Note that I never completed the documentation or wrote the code for the hex keyboard. > > > > > > > > But it does run the Tektronix board-bucket BASIC via serial port ! > > > > > > > > Find more on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_BB > > > > > > > > ah ha! that's what I was looking for. Will check it out in detail. > > > > > > I think I am "forum challenged" as all I could see at the original link > > > > > > were renderings of the board. > > > > > > Thanks Jos. Maybe this will be the ticket... > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > Chris Elmquist From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Jan 19 12:25:58 2022 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:25:58 -0500 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <1IP1PXdIlnC8ooUZu7npkLQvL09UH6b4qP6sSowyz3121wu6mKdnebQNP8xeJvAyhcQtB97ZjCEQjkIbJz8nIOgvX_HXwKOnviPeExnwgps=@glitchwrks.com> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> <111b754a-b021-413f-f7cf-9e56c9465aba@12bitsbest.com> <1IP1PXdIlnC8ooUZu7npkLQvL09UH6b4qP6sSowyz3121wu6mKdnebQNP8xeJvAyhcQtB97ZjCEQjkIbJz8nIOgvX_HXwKOnviPeExnwgps=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: <8a80e938-89ed-4f30-8d61-70b8f9542e5e@bonedaddy.net> Excellent information Jonathan! I generally carry the s100computers and many RetroBrew board and have ordered over 5000 boards from PCBCart.com I'm not a board designer but if people have any questions about PCB Cart and the board ordering process, feel free to contact me privately. Todd On 1/19/2022 1:14 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > Mike, > > We use PCB Cart for boards with hard gold edge contacts, like our DEC prototyping board, Apple II protoboard, XT-IDE, etc. They are the same Chinese board house used by s100computers.com and N8VEM/RetroBrew Computers. Results are pretty good for the price. > > Expect to order 25 to make hard gold edge plating worthwhile. It'll pretty much double the price of the board, but PCB Cart does proper selective hard gold, not "heavy ENIG" (not a thing) or some other nonsense. A lot of the cheaper places will only plate "hard gold" over ENIG, which I assume means they don't actually have a selective process at all. > > Make sure to specify an edge chamfer if it's a typical card edge connector, otherwise it'll be routed square and a little difficult to insert/you'll have to dress it down with a file. > > If practical for the board, remove unused contacts from the edge connector. They charge per-contact as a way to guesstimate their gold costs. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 12:05, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > >> Johnathan, >> >> I saw you will be ordering boards pretty soon. >> >> I need to order some boards for my PDP-8/E but I've never ordered boards >> >> before. >> >> What board house do you use? Have you ever specified gold fingers before? >> >> Any advice would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> +1 (773) 414-1044 >> >> On 1/19/2022 9:49 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> >>> I'm probably going to order some of these on my next circuit board order (this week or next), do you want a set of them? Seems they are of course "hacking required," which is fine by me :P >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jonathan >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> >>> On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:24, Chris Elmquist via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: >>> >>>> On Wednesday (01/19/2022 at 03:35PM +0100), Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 19.01.22 13:15, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? >>>>>> >>>>>> With me... >>>>> 20 Eur for the set of 2 + shipping. >>>>> >>>>> If you are in the US it is probably cheaper to order new ones locally. >>>>> >>>>> Note that I never completed the documentation or wrote the code for the hex keyboard. >>>>> >>>>> But it does run the Tektronix board-bucket BASIC via serial port ! >>>>> >>>>> Find more on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_BB >>>>> >>>>> ah ha! that's what I was looking for. Will check it out in detail. >>>> I think I am "forum challenged" as all I could see at the original link >>>> >>>> were renderings of the board. >>>> >>>> Thanks Jos. Maybe this will be the ticket... >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jan 19 13:15:22 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:15:22 -0600 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <8a80e938-89ed-4f30-8d61-70b8f9542e5e@bonedaddy.net> References: <20220119002218.GN1534@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> <111b754a-b021-413f-f7cf-9e56c9465aba@12bitsbest.com> <1IP1PXdIlnC8ooUZu7npkLQvL09UH6b4qP6sSowyz3121wu6mKdnebQNP8xeJvAyhcQtB97ZjCEQjkIbJz8nIOgvX_HXwKOnviPeExnwgps=@glitchwrks.com> <8a80e938-89ed-4f30-8d61-70b8f9542e5e@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <20220119191522.GE604@n0jcf.net> And just to close the loop on the original documentation request-- someone has come forward with the exact manual for the M68MM01A2 board and I very much appreciate that. He has a lot of Exorciser boards and manuals to scan so I will let him step forward when he's ready for that. But I do greatly appreciate getting this manual. I think Jos' TEK_BB SBC will be the winning solution and thanks to Jos for sharing it and Jonathan for running with it. This way many people can run Altair 680 or SWTPC 6800 code on a small footprint development board. Chris On Wednesday (01/19/2022 at 01:25PM -0500), Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: > Excellent information Jonathan! > > I generally carry the s100computers and many RetroBrew board and have > ordered over 5000 boards from PCBCart.com > > I'm not a board designer but if people have any questions about PCB Cart and > the board ordering process, feel free to contact me privately. > > Todd > > On 1/19/2022 1:14 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > Mike, > > > > We use PCB Cart for boards with hard gold edge contacts, like our DEC prototyping board, Apple II protoboard, XT-IDE, etc. They are the same Chinese board house used by s100computers.com and N8VEM/RetroBrew Computers. Results are pretty good for the price. > > > > Expect to order 25 to make hard gold edge plating worthwhile. It'll pretty much double the price of the board, but PCB Cart does proper selective hard gold, not "heavy ENIG" (not a thing) or some other nonsense. A lot of the cheaper places will only plate "hard gold" over ENIG, which I assume means they don't actually have a selective process at all. > > > > Make sure to specify an edge chamfer if it's a typical card edge connector, otherwise it'll be routed square and a little difficult to insert/you'll have to dress it down with a file. > > > > If practical for the board, remove unused contacts from the edge connector. They charge per-contact as a way to guesstimate their gold costs. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 12:05, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Johnathan, > > > > > > I saw you will be ordering boards pretty soon. > > > > > > I need to order some boards for my PDP-8/E but I've never ordered boards > > > > > > before. > > > > > > What board house do you use? Have you ever specified gold fingers before? > > > > > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > +1 (773) 414-1044 > > > > > > On 1/19/2022 9:49 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > I'm probably going to order some of these on my next circuit board order (this week or next), do you want a set of them? Seems they are of course "hacking required," which is fine by me :P > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Jonathan > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:24, Chris Elmquist via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday (01/19/2022 at 03:35PM +0100), Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 19.01.22 13:15, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a neat board! Where can I/we order one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With me... > > > > > > 20 Eur for the set of 2 + shipping. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are in the US it is probably cheaper to order new ones locally. > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that I never completed the documentation or wrote the code for the hex keyboard. > > > > > > > > > > > > But it does run the Tektronix board-bucket BASIC via serial port ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Find more on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/TEK_BB > > > > > > > > > > > > ah ha! that's what I was looking for. Will check it out in detail. > > > > > I think I am "forum challenged" as all I could see at the original link > > > > > > > > > > were renderings of the board. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Jos. Maybe this will be the ticket... > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > Chris Elmquist -- Chris Elmquist From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 13:50:46 2022 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:50:46 -0600 Subject: AOL diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <01S8PAJC5D8O8WXQSA@beyondthepale.ie> <2e4d0e65-b8e8-ad45-8ec4-554a7c562d93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 19, 2022, 5:00 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/floppy-disk-table/ > > I like it! > > The ratios are wrong: it's about twice as thick as it ought to be. It's > apparently been designed by somebody who has seen a picture of a floppy but > never used one. > One might even say.. it's double density. (I'll see myself out) > From lists at glitchwrks.com Wed Jan 19 17:29:05 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 23:29:05 +0000 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <8a80e938-89ed-4f30-8d61-70b8f9542e5e@bonedaddy.net> References: <20220118185438.GE7662@n0jcf.net> <3f6e2e71-57b4-dd37-f4f7-ac2571fb309c@greenmail.ch> <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> <111b754a-b021-413f-f7cf-9e56c9465aba@12bitsbest.com> <1IP1PXdIlnC8ooUZu7npkLQvL09UH6b4qP6sSowyz3121wu6mKdnebQNP8xeJvAyhcQtB97ZjCEQjkIbJz8nIOgvX_HXwKOnviPeExnwgps=@glitchwrks.com> <8a80e938-89ed-4f30-8d61-70b8f9542e5e@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: > Excellent information Jonathan! Glad to share! I get the impression that people often think I'm on some ideological soapbox when I tell them not to use $flybynite_pcb but really there are big differences in quality. > I generally carry the s100computers and many RetroBrew board Thank *you* for helping keep cool projects stocked and available! I know I've ordered a few things from you after the N8VEM->RetroBrew change. Thanks, Jonathan From lists at glitchwrks.com Wed Jan 19 17:32:31 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 23:32:31 +0000 Subject: seeking Motorola M68MM01A2 documentation In-Reply-To: <20220119191522.GE604@n0jcf.net> References: <72bb5ad7-dbb1-e24e-1c73-ef1755b93e89@greenmail.ch> <20220119152436.GP604@n0jcf.net> <111b754a-b021-413f-f7cf-9e56c9465aba@12bitsbest.com> <1IP1PXdIlnC8ooUZu7npkLQvL09UH6b4qP6sSowyz3121wu6mKdnebQNP8xeJvAyhcQtB97ZjCEQjkIbJz8nIOgvX_HXwKOnviPeExnwgps=@glitchwrks.com> <8a80e938-89ed-4f30-8d61-70b8f9542e5e@bonedaddy.net> <20220119191522.GE604@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > He has a lot of Exorciser boards and manuals to scan so I will let him > step forward when he's ready for that. But I do greatly appreciate > getting this manual. Nice! Looking forward to that manual dump when it does happen. I haven't done a ton with EXORbus due to the lack of documentation...it keeps me from buying more stuff I'd otherwise have to reverse engineer. > I think Jos' TEK_BB SBC will be the winning solution and thanks to Jos > for sharing it and Jonathan for running with it. This way many people can > run Altair 680 or SWTPC 6800 code on a small footprint development board. It does look like just the thing for a right-now easy solution! I'll probably still move forward on especially the compatible Glitchbus board set, but not as urgently :P Thanks, Jonathan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Jan 19 22:07:51 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 23:07:51 -0500 Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L Message-ID: So now that my pdp8/L is up and running (it now has a serial port and runs FOCAL69 quite well) I'm thinking about the next step, which is of course more memory. This requires a BA08 or BM8/L or something expansion box but to be honest I have enough spare flip chips and such from the wrecked 8/I to build about 3 core memory systems. So given that the schematics for the BA08 are online, they look pretty darn simple, I have the parts, and I have the parts does anyone know if it's possible to get a flip chip backplane to work on and wire up to emulate a BA08? It looks like they just used the data break interface lines to hook up to the processor. Everything's there, Memory address bus, memory data bus, and the various signals for jumps and the like that could allow one to decode and implement the extra instructions needed. Hm. Might just be easier to build it with an FPGA or something as it's mostly linking up simple gates and the whole core memory section could be removed by a 4k*12 memory array. Anyone ever done this? C From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 20 02:21:35 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 09:21:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <236H9sOchnQNu2BC-208-3Rkjwu092Y5OucC5fKdrd6TDshjFcmB_yiFXAk2HcUxC0ar0nrcGd4GeD0YpMzIgCb8Nok84x5gA-gf8_subZw=@glitchwrks.com> References: <791042c7-95c5-a135-9582-00a4df035a45@sydex.com> <236H9sOchnQNu2BC-208-3Rkjwu092Y5OucC5fKdrd6TDshjFcmB_yiFXAk2HcUxC0ar0nrcGd4GeD0YpMzIgCb8Nok84x5gA-gf8_subZw=@glitchwrks.com> Message-ID: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Jonathan Chapman wrote: > Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands > this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't > have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide > is staying on the band. What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't available in the required size (as if they are not produced any more). Christian From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 02:51:24 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 03:51:24 -0500 Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e701d80dda$e79ac0a0$b6d041e0$@gmail.com> Not a direct answer Chris, but back in the mid-70's I built a BM8 surrogate the hard way (we were an impoverished neurophysiology lab so cutting corners wherever reasonable) using banks of 2102L and S100 RAM PCBs. For density I piggy-backed the 2102's to get 8Kbyte boards, then 3 boards gave 16Kword, so 6 RAM boards were sufficient to fill out the memory space. The controller was a 1:1 implementation of the DEC schematic, which (if memory serves) just fit onto a single S100 prototyping board. Cabling from the 8/L was simple ribbon with alternating grounds. Chassis was ad hoc using a S100 backplane suitably reinterpreted plus a pair of 8" fans. Added suitable additional DF/IF switches and lamps to the existing filler-panel and then attached that to the chassis-front so that it all looked pretty good. It worked for many years without incident, although AFAIK only core memory was used for execution; the SRAM was used only for data -- and every added word was taken advantage of :-}. So there's an existence proof that what you propose isn't unreasonable. I'd probably have preferred to have a nice backplane and applicable modules to WW, but point-to-point wiring on the prototyping board worked. Given my skill-set at the time it was a rather risky venture, but the ROI was excellent. Evidently the DEC design was forgiving enough that my recreation worked on the first try. If you decide to pursue the FPGA (or something) approach I'd be interested in doing the same with my current 8/L. If you go that route, might as well build out all three bits of DF/IF control even if there may not be any accompanying front-panel. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 11:08 PM To: CCTalk mailing list Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L So now that my pdp8/L is up and running (it now has a serial port and runs FOCAL69 quite well) I'm thinking about the next step, which is of course more memory. This requires a BA08 or BM8/L or something expansion box but to be honest I have enough spare flip chips and such from the wrecked 8/I to build about 3 core memory systems. So given that the schematics for the BA08 are online, they look pretty darn simple, I have the parts, and I have the parts does anyone know if it's possible to get a flip chip backplane to work on and wire up to emulate a BA08? It looks like they just used the data break interface lines to hook up to the processor. Everything's there, Memory address bus, memory data bus, and the various signals for jumps and the like that could allow one to decode and implement the extra instructions needed. Hm. Might just be easier to build it with an FPGA or something as it's mostly linking up simple gates and the whole core memory section could be removed by a 4k*12 memory array. Anyone ever done this? C From pschow at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 10:56:02 2022 From: pschow at gmail.com (Peter Schow) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 09:56:02 -0700 Subject: Sun 3/260 on eBay; Boston area Message-ID: Local pickup only. https://www.ebay.com/itm/265510502961 From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Jan 20 11:11:00 2022 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 09:11:00 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <0AA36D49-5EDD-430B-80FA-FF1B54565D14@snowmoose.com> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 00:23, Christian Corti via cctech wrote: > > ?On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide is staying on the band. > > What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't available in the required size (as if they are not produced any more). > I bought the assorted sizes pack (SF-7000, I think). Each pack had maybe 10 of the green ones I use in QIC tape carts, so I bought multiple packs and put the rest of the bands into household use. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Jan 20 11:11:00 2022 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 09:11:00 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <0AA36D49-5EDD-430B-80FA-FF1B54565D14@snowmoose.com> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 00:23, Christian Corti via cctech wrote: > > ?On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide is staying on the band. > > What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't available in the required size (as if they are not produced any more). > I bought the assorted sizes pack (SF-7000, I think). Each pack had maybe 10 of the green ones I use in QIC tape carts, so I bought multiple packs and put the rest of the bands into household use. alan From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 11:25:32 2022 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:25:32 -0500 Subject: Tiny PDP-11/73 system for sale Message-ID: <2B0E1AE4-844A-42B7-AB8D-599995DA43CC@gmail.com> I am in the process of thinning down my vintage computer holdings, to relieve some of the burden I will leave to my heirs (hopefully not too soon!). I have a working tiny PDP-11/73 system available for sale. I would much prefer not to have to break it down and pack it for shipping, but I will if the buyer agrees to pay for the packing and shipping costs. - - - - - Tiny PDP-11/73 System: H9281-BA backplane and card cage KDJ11-A CPU DLV11-J 4 port SIO MSV11-LK 256KB/128KW memory Emulex UC07 SCSI interface Power-on Reset board from here: http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por SCSI-to-SD hard drive emulator with 4 drives available, RT-11 installed MeanWell RT-125B power supply 4.5 inch AC fan qty 4 GlitchWorks serial cables Spare PDP-11/23 CPU saved as a backup: KDF11-AB CPU RT-11 Pocket Guide RT-11 Mini-Reference Manual - - - - - I am asking $800.00 for the lot. It cost me about that, probably more to acquire it piece-by-piece and assemble it into a working system. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 11:26:38 2022 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:26:38 -0500 Subject: Tiny PDP-11/73 system for sale Message-ID: <34F2B824-3E6C-42AE-8DCD-25CE12FF425E@gmail.com> I am in the process of thinning down my vintage computer holdings, to relieve some of the burden I will leave to my heirs (hopefully not too soon!). I have a working tiny PDP-11/73 system available for sale. I would much prefer not to have to break it down and pack it for shipping, but I will if the buyer agrees to pay for the packing and shipping costs. - - - - - Tiny PDP-11/73 System: H9281-BA backplane and card cage KDJ11-A CPU DLV11-J 4 port SIO MSV11-LK 256KB/128KW memory Emulex UC07 SCSI interface Power-on Reset board from here: http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por SCSI-to-SD hard drive emulator with 4 drives available, RT-11 installed MeanWell RT-125B power supply 4.5 inch AC fan qty 4 GlitchWorks serial cables Spare PDP-11/23 CPU saved as a backup: KDF11-AB CPU RT-11 Pocket Guide RT-11 Mini-Reference Manual - - - - - I am asking $800.00 for the lot. It cost me about that, probably more to acquire it piece-by-piece and assemble it into a working system. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From edcross at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 11:34:50 2022 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 18:34:50 +0100 Subject: Tiny PDP-11/73 system for sale In-Reply-To: <34F2B824-3E6C-42AE-8DCD-25CE12FF425E@gmail.com> References: <34F2B824-3E6C-42AE-8DCD-25CE12FF425E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll take it if still available. Ed On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:26 PM Stephen Pereira via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am in the process of thinning down my vintage computer holdings, to > relieve some of the burden I will leave to my heirs (hopefully not too > soon!). > > I have a working tiny PDP-11/73 system available for sale. I would much > prefer not to have to break it down and pack it for shipping, but I will if > the buyer agrees to pay for the packing and shipping costs. > > - - - - - > > Tiny PDP-11/73 System: > > H9281-BA backplane and card cage > KDJ11-A CPU > DLV11-J 4 port SIO > MSV11-LK 256KB/128KW memory > Emulex UC07 SCSI interface > > Power-on Reset board from here: > http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por < > http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por> > > SCSI-to-SD hard drive emulator with 4 drives available, RT-11 installed > > MeanWell RT-125B power supply > > 4.5 inch AC fan > > qty 4 GlitchWorks serial cables > > Spare PDP-11/23 CPU saved as a backup: > KDF11-AB CPU > > RT-11 Pocket Guide > > RT-11 Mini-Reference Manual > > - - - - - > > I am asking $800.00 for the lot. It cost me about that, probably more to > acquire it piece-by-piece and assemble it into a working system. > > smp > - - - > Stephen Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > > From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 11:36:00 2022 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:36:00 -0500 Subject: Tiny PDP-11/73 system for sale In-Reply-To: References: <34F2B824-3E6C-42AE-8DCD-25CE12FF425E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7FE546CB-67B8-41A7-8FCE-5A97CF340A47@gmail.com> Indeed it is! Are you in the Manchester, NH area? smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Jan 20, 2022, at 12:34 PM, Ed C. wrote: > > I'll take it if still available. > > Ed > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:26 PM Stephen Pereira via cctech > wrote: > I am in the process of thinning down my vintage computer holdings, to relieve some of the burden I will leave to my heirs (hopefully not too soon!). > > I have a working tiny PDP-11/73 system available for sale. I would much prefer not to have to break it down and pack it for shipping, but I will if the buyer agrees to pay for the packing and shipping costs. > > - - - - - > > Tiny PDP-11/73 System: > > H9281-BA backplane and card cage > KDJ11-A CPU > DLV11-J 4 port SIO > MSV11-LK 256KB/128KW memory > Emulex UC07 SCSI interface > > Power-on Reset board from here: > http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por > > > SCSI-to-SD hard drive emulator with 4 drives available, RT-11 installed > > MeanWell RT-125B power supply > > 4.5 inch AC fan > > qty 4 GlitchWorks serial cables > > Spare PDP-11/23 CPU saved as a backup: > KDF11-AB CPU > > RT-11 Pocket Guide > > RT-11 Mini-Reference Manual > > - - - - - > > I am asking $800.00 for the lot. It cost me about that, probably more to acquire it piece-by-piece and assemble it into a working system. > > smp > - - - > Stephen Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 20 13:33:52 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:33:52 -0500 Subject: DECnet/10 manuals? Message-ID: I'm looking for a manual I can't find on Bitsavers: a DECnet/10 programming manual. The reason: trying to read PSTHRU.MAC and realizing that I was trying to understand DECnet-10 code while reading the DECnet-20 programming manual. Oops. paul From dave at 661.org Thu Jan 20 23:51:22 2022 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 05:51:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Screws for a Compaq Portable keyboard Message-ID: Would someone please suggest a suitable screw specification for the Compaq Portable keyboard? My restoration project was interrupted and I managed to lose the screws. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 21 02:58:05 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:58:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: <0AA36D49-5EDD-430B-80FA-FF1B54565D14@snowmoose.com> References: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <0AA36D49-5EDD-430B-80FA-FF1B54565D14@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, it was written >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 00:23, Christian Corti via cctech >> wrote: What bands did you use/buy? I ask >> because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't available in the required >> size (as if they are not produced any more). > I bought the assorted sizes pack (SF-7000, I think). Each pack had maybe > 10 of the green ones I use in QIC tape carts, so I bought multiple packs > and put the rest of the bands into household use. Well, both the SF-7000 as well as the SF-6500 (the size for QIC cartridges) are de facto unavailable/out of stock/whatever. The only alternative that I could find are the Mobilon Bands from Nisshinbo. But same story, I can't order them, there is no store that I could do that. Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 21 08:09:05 2022 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:09:05 +0100 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <0AA36D49-5EDD-430B-80FA-FF1B54565D14@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > > Well, both the SF-7000 as well as the SF-6500 (the size for QIC > cartridges) are de facto unavailable/out of stock/whatever. > The only alternative that I could find are the Mobilon Bands from > Nisshinbo. But same story, I can't order them, there is no store that I > could do that. > Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was that you have to be VAT registered. I had a friend order for me. https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/ I used the 150 mm / 6mm variety and as far as I can tell it works nicely. I have been running a tape in a Tektronix 4051 for some time and haven seen any shedding. Not daily exactly but 20 times over half a year. /Mattis > Christian > From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Fri Jan 21 08:41:59 2022 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:41:59 -0500 Subject: Tiny PDP-11/73 system for sale In-Reply-To: <2B0E1AE4-844A-42B7-AB8D-599995DA43CC@gmail.com> References: <2B0E1AE4-844A-42B7-AB8D-599995DA43CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have had a couple of inquiries on my system, but no takers yet. I just want to let folks know that it is still available. Please read the description - that is exactly what is for sale. Please contact me for photos. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Jan 20, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > > I am in the process of thinning down my vintage computer holdings, to relieve some of the burden I will leave to my heirs (hopefully not too soon!). > > I have a working tiny PDP-11/73 system available for sale. I would much prefer not to have to break it down and pack it for shipping, but I will if the buyer agrees to pay for the packing and shipping costs. > > - - - - - > > Tiny PDP-11/73 System: > > H9281-BA backplane and card cage > KDJ11-A CPU > DLV11-J 4 port SIO > MSV11-LK 256KB/128KW memory > Emulex UC07 SCSI interface > > Power-on Reset board from here: > http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por > > SCSI-to-SD hard drive emulator with 4 drives available, RT-11 installed > > MeanWell RT-125B power supply > > 4.5 inch AC fan > > qty 4 GlitchWorks serial cables > > Spare PDP-11/23 CPU saved as a backup: > KDF11-AB CPU > > RT-11 Pocket Guide > > RT-11 Mini-Reference Manual > > - - - - - > > I am asking $800.00 for the lot. It cost me about that, probably more to acquire it piece-by-piece and assemble it into a working system. > > smp > - - - > Stephen Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jan 21 11:54:54 2022 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:54:54 -0800 Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <0AA36D49-5EDD-430B-80FA-FF1B54565D14@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <001701d80eef$fffc7f60$fff57e20$@net> > Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was that you have to be > VAT > registered. I had a friend order for me. > > https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/ > > I used the 150 mm / 6mm variety and as far as I can tell it works > nicely. I > have been running a tape in a Tektronix 4051 for some time and haven > seen > any shedding. Not daily exactly but 20 times over half a year. I second the Misumi brand. I haven't seen any of the issues mentioned on this thread with those bands. Of course I am only a hobbyist so not putting them through any crazy paces. I mainly use them for the 5100 and 5110. They are significantly more expensive then the Amazon mix bag ones but may be worth it. -Ali From chd at chdickman.com Fri Jan 21 18:26:02 2022 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:26:02 -0500 Subject: DEC RX01 Parts In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 7:41 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know if the circuit boards are compatible with the RX8E > Controller. The Read/Write Control Board is labeled 243A and the Floppy > Disk Control Board is labeled 245A. > What I know about the RX01/RX02 is only from poring over the manuals and schematics. There is only one RX01 system. It is compatible with all the controllers. There may be a jumper. I don't have any other 8" floppy systems to format the disks in. > The format is IBM 3740. So quite common in the way that 8 inch floppies are common. -chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Jan 21 18:42:12 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:42:12 -0600 Subject: DEC RX01 Parts In-Reply-To: References: <03af01d802da$c7032db0$55098910$@ntlworld.com> <1caf1a5e-a32a-7821-33ea-f8ee7596bbe3@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <03c101d802f2$2af414d0$80dc3e70$@ntlworld.com> <1EzeBu9cbjWmZSejQQFFB3g05hb1t_prGWABv204b0cZTBSCVdP8Th0hT37MH7W_-HP_bC9CekD1RDMM-royWbJxYo_l16tXMyNVSqi7Tks=@glitchwrks.com> <34a953ac012a490197a50bf42053ffeb@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <006e01d80404$33b59c70$9b20d550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Thank you.? That is what I figured.? Now all I need is a RK8E or RX28 controller and I'm all set. I'm becoming more and more tempted to have some of Roland's TTL version boards made and build one up myself. I am trying to get an 8" shugart type drive and using the GreaseWeazel I will be able to format disks for RX01. The author of the original firmware is working with me to modify the firmware for the screwy RX02 format. The nice thing about the RX01 drive set that I have is that I can just flip a dip switch and have an RX02 instead (as long as I install the appropriate RX02 OS/8 driver and have the RX28 controller card). Thanks again, ??????????? Mike On 1/21/2022 6:26 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 7:41 PM Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > > > I don't know if the circuit boards are compatible with the RX8E > Controller. The Read/Write Control Board is labeled 243A and the > Floppy > Disk Control Board is labeled 245A. > > > What I know about the RX01/RX02 is only from poring over the manuals > and schematics. > > There is only one RX01 system. It is compatible with all the > controllers. There may be a jumper. > > I don't have any other 8" floppy systems to format the disks in. > > > The format is IBM 3740. So quite common in the way that?8 inch > floppies are common. > > -chuck > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 21 21:09:48 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:09:48 -0500 Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L In-Reply-To: <00e701d80dda$e79ac0a0$b6d041e0$@gmail.com> References: <00e701d80dda$e79ac0a0$b6d041e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Paul! That is really interesting. Did you need to recreate the delay lines or any of that circuitry, or was it just wire the NAND gates into the chip address matrix and ignore all the various TP1-TP4 states? Looking at it I could probably build the basic circuitry on a large breadboard, I've certainly got the chips from fixing all those M series boards. That plus a pair of 32k*8 static ram chips from my 386 cache days and I should be set.... Now where did that big breadboard go? CZ On 1/20/2022 3:51 AM, pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > Not a direct answer Chris, but back in the mid-70's I built a BM8 surrogate the hard way (we were an impoverished neurophysiology lab so cutting corners wherever reasonable) using banks of 2102L and S100 RAM PCBs. For density I piggy-backed the 2102's to get 8Kbyte boards, then 3 boards gave 16Kword, so 6 RAM boards were sufficient to fill out the memory space. The controller was a 1:1 implementation of the DEC schematic, which (if memory serves) just fit onto a single S100 prototyping board. Cabling from the 8/L was simple ribbon with alternating grounds. Chassis was ad hoc using a S100 backplane suitably reinterpreted plus a pair of 8" fans. Added suitable additional DF/IF switches and lamps to the existing filler-panel and then attached that to the chassis-front so that it all looked pretty good. It worked for many years without incident, although AFAIK only core memory was used for execution; the SRAM was used only for data -- and every added word was taken advantage of :-}. > > So there's an existence proof that what you propose isn't unreasonable. I'd probably have preferred to have a nice backplane and applicable modules to WW, but point-to-point wiring on the prototyping board worked. Given my skill-set at the time it was a rather risky venture, but the ROI was excellent. Evidently the DEC design was forgiving enough that my recreation worked on the first try. > > If you decide to pursue the FPGA (or something) approach I'd be interested in doing the same with my current 8/L. If you go that route, might as well build out all three bits of DF/IF control even if there may not be any accompanying front-panel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 11:08 PM > To: CCTalk mailing list > Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L > > So now that my pdp8/L is up and running (it now has a serial port and runs FOCAL69 quite well) I'm thinking about the next step, which is of course more memory. > > This requires a BA08 or BM8/L or something expansion box but to be honest I have enough spare flip chips and such from the wrecked 8/I to build about 3 core memory systems. So given that the schematics for the > BA08 are online, they look pretty darn simple, I have the parts, and I have the parts does anyone know if it's possible to get a flip chip backplane to work on and wire up to emulate a BA08? > > It looks like they just used the data break interface lines to hook up to the processor. Everything's there, Memory address bus, memory data bus, and the various signals for jumps and the like that could allow one to decode and implement the extra instructions needed. > > Hm. Might just be easier to build it with an FPGA or something as it's mostly linking up simple gates and the whole core memory section could be removed by a 4k*12 memory array. Anyone ever done this? > > C > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jan 22 02:28:31 2022 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 09:28:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands In-Reply-To: References: <5b1ddfc9-14de-71b-ff41-87c4cce4cb19@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <0AA36D49-5EDD-430B-80FA-FF1B54565D14@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <80d29145-4546-d1e3-5f7c-4deef314be65@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, it was written > Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was that you have to be VAT > registered. I had a friend order for me. Yes, and that is exactly the problem. Christian From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Jan 22 10:19:36 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:19:36 -0500 Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L In-Reply-To: References: <00e701d80dda$e79ac0a0$b6d041e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <049801d80fab$d9ce2660$8d6a7320$@gmail.com> I have absolutely no idea! Jameco would have likely been my source for most components although we did have a Hamilton-Avnet in town and it's possible that ordered some components from them (I still have a NS databook with their sticker on it). It's entirely possible that I fiddled with some TTL gate-delays to derive a good-enough approximation. Where are you getting your circuit schematic from? Maybe if I look at it a bit something will come back to mind ... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 10:10 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Re: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L Hi Paul! That is really interesting. Did you need to recreate the delay lines or any of that circuitry, or was it just wire the NAND gates into the chip address matrix and ignore all the various TP1-TP4 states? Looking at it I could probably build the basic circuitry on a large breadboard, I've certainly got the chips from fixing all those M series boards. That plus a pair of 32k*8 static ram chips from my 386 cache days and I should be set.... Now where did that big breadboard go? CZ On 1/20/2022 3:51 AM, pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > Not a direct answer Chris, but back in the mid-70's I built a BM8 surrogate the hard way (we were an impoverished neurophysiology lab so cutting corners wherever reasonable) using banks of 2102L and S100 RAM PCBs. For density I piggy-backed the 2102's to get 8Kbyte boards, then 3 boards gave 16Kword, so 6 RAM boards were sufficient to fill out the memory space. The controller was a 1:1 implementation of the DEC schematic, which (if memory serves) just fit onto a single S100 prototyping board. Cabling from the 8/L was simple ribbon with alternating grounds. Chassis was ad hoc using a S100 backplane suitably reinterpreted plus a pair of 8" fans. Added suitable additional DF/IF switches and lamps to the existing filler-panel and then attached that to the chassis-front so that it all looked pretty good. It worked for many years without incident, although AFAIK only core memory was used for execution; the SRAM was used only for data -- and every added word was taken advantage of :-}. > > So there's an existence proof that what you propose isn't unreasonable. I'd probably have preferred to have a nice backplane and applicable modules to WW, but point-to-point wiring on the prototyping board worked. Given my skill-set at the time it was a rather risky venture, but the ROI was excellent. Evidently the DEC design was forgiving enough that my recreation worked on the first try. > > If you decide to pursue the FPGA (or something) approach I'd be interested in doing the same with my current 8/L. If you go that route, might as well build out all three bits of DF/IF control even if there may not be any accompanying front-panel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach > via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 11:08 PM > To: CCTalk mailing list > Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L > > So now that my pdp8/L is up and running (it now has a serial port and runs FOCAL69 quite well) I'm thinking about the next step, which is of course more memory. > > This requires a BA08 or BM8/L or something expansion box but to be > honest I have enough spare flip chips and such from the wrecked 8/I to > build about 3 core memory systems. So given that the schematics for > the > BA08 are online, they look pretty darn simple, I have the parts, and I have the parts does anyone know if it's possible to get a flip chip backplane to work on and wire up to emulate a BA08? > > It looks like they just used the data break interface lines to hook up to the processor. Everything's there, Memory address bus, memory data bus, and the various signals for jumps and the like that could allow one to decode and implement the extra instructions needed. > > Hm. Might just be easier to build it with an FPGA or something as it's mostly linking up simple gates and the whole core memory section could be removed by a 4k*12 memory array. Anyone ever done this? > > C > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 22 15:18:59 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:18:59 -0800 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 11, 2022, 4:52 PM Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 10:05 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > > No blinkenlights. It's not exciting looking. This tracks for PDP-11s > (and > > 8's!) as well. No one pays big money for 11/04, 11/34, 11/44 or LSI-11 > > systems (though prices are creeping up like everything else) but 11/05, > > 11/40, 11/70, etc. sell for huge amounts every time. There's an 11/70 > > front panel at over $500 on eBay right now with two days left, it'll > > probably sell for $2500. > > > > Not even close. Only sold for $1800 :) > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/185225084454 Another DECDataSystem 570 version front panel just sold for $1850 https://www.ebay.com/itm/265512455331 Blinkenlights always makes a huge difference. From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Sat Jan 22 09:02:22 2022 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 10:02:22 -0500 Subject: Typing in lost code Message-ID: Has anyone ever used Amazon Mechanical Turk to employ typists to type in old listings of lost code? Asking for a friend. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 22 17:57:59 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 18:57:59 -0500 Subject: VAX 780 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20220109105616.1F4BC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <92ccd691-b6ef-3147-b6b7-221663082c81@alembic.crystel.com> > Another DECDataSystem 570 version front panel just sold for $1850 > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/265512455331 Hm. Time to sell this old 8/I front panel. It's one of those things I have had for 30+ years and really don't need... From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 22 18:07:28 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 19:07:28 -0500 Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L In-Reply-To: <049801d80fab$d9ce2660$8d6a7320$@gmail.com> References: <00e701d80dda$e79ac0a0$b6d041e0$@gmail.com> <049801d80fab$d9ce2660$8d6a7320$@gmail.com> Message-ID: There's a couple of MC8/L manuals on bitsavers, this might jog your memory. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8l/ Anyway, the timing seems to be for the read core, transfer into MB, write back into core (because reads are destructive) then send the completed signal. On MOS memory you probably just need to see the state1 line go high (I have something on the address lines) then just put the data into the MB and go straight to signal 4 (since you don't need to rewrite). On a positive note the 8/L will be able to run as fast as it can as it doesn't have to wait for the core memory. Hm. C On 1/22/2022 11:19 AM, pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > I have absolutely no idea! Jameco would have likely been my source for most components although we did have a Hamilton-Avnet in town and it's possible that ordered some components from them (I still have a NS databook with their sticker on it). It's entirely possible that I fiddled with some TTL gate-delays to derive a good-enough approximation. Where are you getting your circuit schematic from? Maybe if I look at it a bit something will come back to mind ... From ethan at 757.org Sat Jan 22 19:06:59 2022 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 20:06:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> Can the listings be OCR'ed? - Ethan > Has anyone ever used Amazon Mechanical Turk to employ typists to type in > old listings of lost code? > > Asking for a friend. > -- : Ethan O'Toole From dave at 661.org Sun Jan 23 00:28:16 2022 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 06:28:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Compaq Portable brightness knob Message-ID: <223e84aa-40e4-1fe1-3a8a-72b95156f4fb@661.org> Would someone please suggest a replacement for the Compaq Portable's brightness knob? This was missing on mine when I got it. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Jan 23 00:56:53 2022 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 22:56:53 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable brightness knob In-Reply-To: <223e84aa-40e4-1fe1-3a8a-72b95156f4fb@661.org> Message-ID: <0MTRw1-1mkkbo0Hjz-00SNle@mrelay.perfora.net> >Would someone please suggest a replacement >for the Compaq Portable's >brightness knob?? This was missing on mine >when I got it.David,Are youblooking for the pot or the actual plastic knob?Out of curiosity does your brightness adjustment work at all??-Ali From dave at 661.org Sun Jan 23 01:00:04 2022 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Compaq Portable brightness knob In-Reply-To: <0MTRw1-1mkkbo0Hjz-00SNle@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MTRw1-1mkkbo0Hjz-00SNle@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, Ali wrote: > > >Would someone please suggest a replacement >for the Compaq Portable's > >brightness knob?? This was missing on mine >when I got it. > > David, > > Are you looking for the pot or the actual plastic knob? > > Out of curiosity does your brightness adjustment work at all?? I'm looking for the actual plastic knob. The pot itself seems to work fine. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Jan 23 01:39:39 2022 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 23:39:39 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable brightness knob In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0LzdI4-1mH9HW25GE-014gRH@mrelay.perfora.net> >My reply is at the bottom.? Please put your reply >there tooIs that for me? Because my reply is at the bottom. See bottom.>> Out of curiosity does your brightness >>adjustment work at all??>I'm looking for the actual plastic knob.? The pot >itself seems to work >fine.Sorry can't help you regarding the plastic knob and I doubt you could find an original Compaq spare shirt of gutting another unit for parts.When you say the pot is working on yours does it go the full range of brightness i.e. from zero/off all the way to 100%/maximal brightness? Or does it just slightly dim the screen?Thanks.-Ali From dave at 661.org Sun Jan 23 02:45:18 2022 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 08:45:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Compaq Portable brightness knob In-Reply-To: <0LzdI4-1mH9HW25GE-014gRH@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0LzdI4-1mH9HW25GE-014gRH@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, Ali wrote: > > Is that for me? Because my reply is at the bottom. See bottom. > > >> Out of curiosity does your brightness >>adjustment work at all?? > > >I'm looking for the actual plastic knob.? The pot >itself seems to work > >fine. > > Sorry can't help you regarding the plastic knob and I doubt you could find > an original Compaq spare shirt of gutting another unit for parts. > > When you say the pot is working on yours does it go the full range of > brightness i.e. from zero/off all the way to 100%/maximal brightness? Or > does it just slightly dim the screen? That "My reply is at the bottom..." is part of the "on so-and-so date Joe Blow wrote...". I suppose I could alter that to say "(standard header)" somesuch. Now about the pot, it turns easily and gives the full range of brightness. I found a few knobs on Ebay for the IBM 5151 monitor that seem like they might work. They have a similar sun icon too. I might get one just to see. If it doesn't work, I can probably adapt something without a pointer that comes close and cobble something to mate with the pot. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jan 23 03:00:10 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 04:00:10 -0500 Subject: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L In-Reply-To: References: <00e701d80dda$e79ac0a0$b6d041e0$@gmail.com> <049801d80fab$d9ce2660$8d6a7320$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <057501d81037$a0caca80$e2605f80$@gmail.com> Thank you. I _would have_ probably also looked at the analogous "MM8I_Schem_Aug69.pdf" print set. But those were antediluvian times; no Bitsavers and DEC wasn't handing out free print sets. You could purchase them, though -- I still have KA10 and MA10 documentation that I acquired that way for my own education/amusement :->. Fortunately I had access to the full (32Kw MC8-I) controller hard-copy documentation for the 8/I courtesy of an amazingly built-out system installation in the lab below us (8/I with a full 32Kw core plus a pair of DF32 plus at least two TU56) who was willing to serve as my personal lending-library :->. AFAICS that documentation hasn't been captured in Bitsavers. I have found my 45 y/o 8x11 taped together photocopies if you decide to go past adding a single additional field. Aside from a few annotations there plus some sketched connector-signal information I haven't found any as-built documentation -- not even a IC-laydown -- although I see that I used SSM MB6A boards for the SRAM arrays. Unfortunately no pictures and the system is (very) long gone. WRT the delay lines, I think that you've nailed it -- my lack of recall is likely because none of the special timing requirements for the RMW cycle(s) for core applied so I didn't need to replicate that part of the control; individual R or W cycles based on the 2102L are necessarily more than fast enough. Unfortunately none of my implementation-related notes/sketches appear to have survived :-<. And the few that do are often on the "clean" side of reused paper. Poor church mice ... I did also find documentation for a MONOSTORE V/PLANAR 1K-word to 8K-word SRAM module (pub. 1976) for an 8/E that I suspect that I studied carefully to see how OMNIBUS-based signaling was being handled in an environment where RMW core was also supported. It claims to have used "AMD DS9408" parts according to the inventory; have never heard of that one. In roughly the same time-period I also built-out an AX08 surrogate that went to Appleton, WI, in support of a newly-minted PhD from our lab. I found some notes relating to the necessary control components plus the use of "brick" type A/D and D/A devices. I suspect that the deal was that the new position came with a PO for an 8/I and BA08A (probably w/o memory), but not an AX08 -- so I was looking for the most cost-effective means to replicate critical AX08 functionality ... and did so. It's been a long time. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Zach Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022 7:07 PM To: pbirkel at gmail.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Re: Building a BA08 for a pdp8/L There's a couple of MC8/L manuals on bitsavers, this might jog your memory. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8l/ Anyway, the timing seems to be for the read core, transfer into MB, write back into core (because reads are destructive) then send the completed signal. On MOS memory you probably just need to see the state1 line go high (I have something on the address lines) then just put the data into the MB and go straight to signal 4 (since you don't need to rewrite). On a positive note the 8/L will be able to run as fast as it can as it doesn't have to wait for the core memory. Hm. C On 1/22/2022 11:19 AM, pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > I have absolutely no idea! Jameco would have likely been my source for most components although we did have a Hamilton-Avnet in town and it's possible that ordered some components from them (I still have a NS databook with their sticker on it). It's entirely possible that I fiddled with some TTL gate-delays to derive a good-enough approximation. Where are you getting your circuit schematic from? Maybe if I look at it a bit something will come back to mind ... From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Sat Jan 22 19:57:43 2022 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 20:57:43 -0500 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> Message-ID: No, OCR totally fails on olde line printer listing. At least the ones I've tried (tesseract, online, ...) On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 8:06 PM Ethan O'Toole wrote: > > Can the listings be OCR'ed? > > - Ethan > > > > Has anyone ever used Amazon Mechanical Turk to employ typists to type in > > old listings of lost code? > > > > Asking for a friend. > > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 23 03:53:51 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:53:51 +0100 Subject: Compaq Portable brightness knob In-Reply-To: <223e84aa-40e4-1fe1-3a8a-72b95156f4fb@661.org> References: <223e84aa-40e4-1fe1-3a8a-72b95156f4fb@661.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 07:28, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > Would someone please suggest a replacement for the Compaq Portable's > brightness knob? This was missing on mine when I got it. 3D print one? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 23 09:11:10 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:11:10 -0500 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> Message-ID: <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> I've run into that situation too, with listings so difficult that even a commercial OCR program (FineReader) couldn't handle it. At the time Tesseract was far less capable, though I haven't tried it recently to see if that has changed. Anyway, my experience was that the task was hard enough that it needed someone with knowledge of the material. It may be a contract typist could do a tolerable job but I have my doubts. Typing, say, an obsolete assembly language program if you see it merely as a random collection of characters is going to produce more errors than if the person doing the typing actually understands what the material means. One consideration is the effort required to repair transcription errors. Those that produce syntax errors aren't such an issue; those that pass the assembler or compiler but result in bugs (say, a mistyped register number) are harder to find. paul > On Jan 22, 2022, at 8:57 PM, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > > No, OCR totally fails on olde line printer listing. At least the ones I've > tried (tesseract, online, ...) > > > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 8:06 PM Ethan O'Toole wrote: > >> >> Can the listings be OCR'ed? >> >> - Ethan >> >> >>> Has anyone ever used Amazon Mechanical Turk to employ typists to type in >>> old listings of lost code? >>> >>> Asking for a friend. From lists at glitchwrks.com Sun Jan 23 09:26:04 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 15:26:04 +0000 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: I recently dealt with this with the DaJen SCI monitor listing out of the manual. The copy is pretty bad, and either their printer was having issues, or slashing of "zero" vs "O" was inconsistent somehow. OCRing it produced more of a mess than just sitting with the original and a text editor open side-by-side. I can't imagine it would've worked out well to have someone who wasn't familiar with 8080 assembly language transcribe it, I had a rough enough time on my own, and ended up having to compare the assembly output to a known-good ROM dump to get the last of the discrepancies out. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, January 23rd, 2022 at 10:11, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I've run into that situation too, with listings so difficult that even a commercial OCR program (FineReader) couldn't handle it. At the time Tesseract was far less capable, though I haven't tried it recently to see if that has changed. > > Anyway, my experience was that the task was hard enough that it needed someone with knowledge of the material. It may be a contract typist could do a tolerable job but I have my doubts. Typing, say, an obsolete assembly language program if you see it merely as a random collection of characters is going to produce more errors than if the person doing the typing actually understands what the material means. > > One consideration is the effort required to repair transcription errors. Those that produce syntax errors aren't such an issue; those that pass the assembler or compiler but result in bugs (say, a mistyped register number) are harder to find. > > paul > > > On Jan 22, 2022, at 8:57 PM, Mark Kahrs via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > No, OCR totally fails on olde line printer listing. At least the ones I've > > > > tried (tesseract, online, ...) > > > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 8:06 PM Ethan O'Toole ethan at 757.org wrote: > > > > > Can the listings be OCR'ed? > > > > > > - Ethan > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone ever used Amazon Mechanical Turk to employ typists to type in > > > > > > > > old listings of lost code? > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 23 10:50:26 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 16:50:26 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 clone built by Canadian company Consolidated Computer Inc Message-ID: <0522ad87-b86a-4295-3b0d-5116dc05d739@btinternet.com> I am trying to locate documentation on the PDP-8 clone built by Canadian company Consolidated Computer Inc (Mers Kutt) in the mid 1970's. An example exists in the UK and will be restored when more data than just the system can be found. Rod Smallwood - digital equipment corporation 1975-1985 From gavin at learn.bio Sun Jan 23 11:09:30 2022 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 11:09:30 -0600 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 9:11 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > One consideration is the effort required to repair transcription errors. Those that produce syntax errors aren't such an issue; > those that pass the assembler or compiler but result in bugs (say, a mistyped register number) are harder to find. You can always have it "turked" twice and compare the results. This is also the sort of problem that modern Deep Machine Learning will just crush. Identifying individual characters should be trivial, you just have to figure out where the characters are first which could also be done with ML or you could try to do it some other way (with a really well registered scan maybe if it's all fixed-width characters). I think if I had a whole lot of old faded greenbar etc. I would consider manually converting a few pages then setup a Kaggle competition for it and maybe invest a bit of money as a prize. Someone may even have done this already (there have certainly been a number of "OCR historical documents" competitions), but I didn't spend too much time searching. I'm sure you're not the only one who has had this problem to solve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 23 11:31:16 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 12:31:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Typing in lost code Message-ID: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Gavin Scott > I think if I had a whole lot of old faded greenbar etc. ... Someone may > even have done this already See: https://walden-family.com/impcode/imp-code.pdf Someone's already done the specialist OCR to deal with faded program listings. Noel From gavin at learn.bio Sun Jan 23 12:04:51 2022 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 12:04:51 -0600 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:31 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > See: > > https://walden-family.com/impcode/imp-code.pdf > > Someone's already done the specialist OCR to deal with faded program listings. Neat. Though all the complex character recognition part of that work is now like 15-20 lines of Python code (using either Keras or PyTorch). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 23 12:06:46 2022 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 18:06:46 +0000 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It is unlikely that no current day OCR will produce an error free listing. It is possible to train an AI to do this but it requires specific training. It must be on the specific machine code and on the same format. Any generic OCR will have many errors if the text is hard to read. The final product must include notes as to things it is not sure about or it would be useless. I recovered a listing for the 4004 processor that was printed on a ASR33 with ruts on the platen. The right hand 1/4 of letters were missing at several locations across the page. Letters such as F and P, as well as 0 and C were often not well enough printed to distinguish. Luckily F and P were often in context relatively easy to determine but 0 and C were often use to describe a HEX number. Unlike the text on this page, the differences were not always obvious. The final result in working code required noting which things were possibly one or the other. The only way to determine most of these was by using a simulation of the code. Most all the cases for the 0 vrs C were that it was a 0, as these were for initializing a pointer base number ( context of usage ). In one case it was only through the simulation was I able to determine that it was really CC and not 00. Marking locations of uncertainty was essential to determine where to check the program code context. Any OCR that doesn't include possible options and that isn't trained on that particular code is worthless. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 9:31 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Typing in lost code > From: Gavin Scott > I think if I had a whole lot of old faded greenbar etc. ... Someone may > even have done this already See: https://walden-family.com/impcode/imp-code.pdf Someone's already done the specialist OCR to deal with faded program listings. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 23 12:16:34 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 13:16:34 -0500 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0C81439C-4AD5-4E06-B55F-091162572C61@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2022, at 12:09 PM, Gavin Scott wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 9:11 AM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> One consideration is the effort required to repair transcription errors. Those that produce syntax errors aren't such an issue; >> those that pass the assembler or compiler but result in bugs (say, a mistyped register number) are harder to find. > > You can always have it "turked" twice and compare the results. > > This is also the sort of problem that modern Deep Machine Learning > will just crush. Identifying individual characters should be trivial, > you just have to figure out where the characters are first which could > also be done with ML or you could try to do it some other way (with a > really well registered scan maybe if it's all fixed-width characters). Maybe. But OCR programs have had learning features for decades. I've spent quite a lot of time in FineReader learning mode. Material produced on a moderate-quality typewriter, like the CDC 6600 wire lists on Bitsavers, can be handled tolerably well. Especially with post-processing that knows what the text patterns should be and converts common misreadings to what they should be. But the listings I mentioned before were entirely unmanageable even after a lot of "learning mode" effort. An annoying wrinkle was that I wasn't dealing with greenbar but rather with Dutch line printer paper that has every other line marked with 5 thin horizontal lines, almost like music score paper. Faded printout with a worn ribbon on a substrate like that is a challenge even for human eyeballs, and all the "machine learning" hype can't conceal the fact that no machine can come anywhere close to a human for dealing with image recognition under tough conditions. That said, if you have access to a particularly good OCR, it can't hurt to spend a few hours trying to make it cope with the source material in question. But be prepared for disappointment. paul From lars at nocrew.org Sun Jan 23 12:48:41 2022 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 18:48:41 +0000 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa via cctalk's message of "Sun, 23 Jan 2022 12:31:16 -0500 (EST)") References: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wiluawanq.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > https://walden-family.com/impcode/imp-code.pdf > Someone's already done the specialist OCR to deal with faded program > listings. I tried to contact the author about converting some of the other IMP listings, but got no reply. From sieler at allegro.com Sun Jan 23 13:42:09 2022 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 11:42:09 -0800 Subject: mystery S-100 available Message-ID: Hi, I have a mystery S-100 computer that I'm would like to sell, from the estate of the late Ken Gielow (author of Z80DIS, a great Z80 disassembler). The proceeds will be donated to a non-tax-deductible magic group Ken was a long-time member of. The computer is located in Cupertino, CA (aka "the heart of Silicon Valley", in the S.F. Bay Area). (If reopened, you can combine a pickup with a visit to the Computer History Museum in nearby Mountain View, CA! :) This would likely be quite expensive to ship. I'd guess 30+ pounds. Photos and some info at: www.sieler.com/ken_photos Some of the hardware (also listed on the above page): ThinkerToys buss unknown semi-transparent front panel spare/uninstalled Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1 front panel 10 various boards inside metal case (heavy) There may be manuals on some of the boards and/or the Ithaca, but I'm not sure yet. (They would be included, if they exist.) I wanted to take photos of each board, but having been seated for about 40 years, they don't come out if I tug gently. None have integrated board lifters, unfortunately (I tried a boroscope, but could not get useful photos.) Based on the labels on some EPROMS, there's a chance that it's a homebrew TRS-80 clone, with both Level II BASIC and CBASIC, and may have Morrow DISCUS software on it. We're looking for an offer on either: - the Ithaca Intersystems front panel; - the computer with all the boards or both. Suggestions welcome, thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 23 13:47:18 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 11:47:18 -0800 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <0C81439C-4AD5-4E06-B55F-091162572C61@comcast.net> References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> <0C81439C-4AD5-4E06-B55F-091162572C61@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/23/22 10:16, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Maybe. But OCR programs have had learning features for decades. I've spent quite a lot of time in FineReader learning mode. Material produced on a moderate-quality typewriter, like the CDC 6600 wire lists on Bitsavers, can be handled tolerably well. Especially with post-processing that knows what the text patterns should be and converts common misreadings to what they should be. But the listings I mentioned before were entirely unmanageable even after a lot of "learning mode" effort. An annoying wrinkle was that I wasn't dealing with greenbar but rather with Dutch line printer paper that has every other line marked with 5 thin horizontal lines, almost like music score paper. Faded printout with a worn ribbon on a substrate like that is a challenge even for human eyeballs, and all the "machine learning" hype can't conceal the fact that no machine can come anywhere close to a human for dealing with image recognition under tough conditions. The problem is that OCR needs to be 100% accuracy for many purposes. Much short of that requires that the result be inspected by hand line-by-line with the knowledge of what makes sense. Mistaking a single fuzzy 8 for a 6 or a 3, for example can render code inoperative with a very difficult to locate bug. Perhaps an AI might be programmed to separate out the nonsense typos. Old high-speed line printers weren't always wonderful with timing the hammer strikes. I recall some nearly impossible to read Univac 1108 engineering documents, printed on a drum printer. Gave me headaches. At least that's my take. --Chuck From go at aerodesic.com Sun Jan 23 17:09:53 2022 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 15:09:53 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation Message-ID: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> I've always thought the physical tape wound on a DECtape spool was a fairly conventional 'sandwich' of mylar/oxide/mylar, but a recent 'test' makes me think there is something else involved. I have a number of tapes I'm cleaning (removing dust, etc.)? to make ready to read on a restored (apparently) Astrotype dual DECtape drive and I was 'dressing' the leaders of the tape (removing ragged bits from old use.)? After trimming a wee bit from several tapes (.5 to 1 inch) I did a test.? Taking the bits of tape, I exposed them to various concentrations of isopropanol/water (from about 25% to 99% iso) and found than in all cases, some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe.? The remaining tape fragment appears intact - the brown oxide was still there but both sides were now the same color, rather than the data side being darker (as were all my tapes before the test.) Was there some kind of 'lubricating' coat on the data side?? It makes sense, but none of my DEC documents or Googling has any mention of lubrication, other than the "...hydro- dynamic lubrication, relying on the viscosity of air to entrain it with the tape and provide the flotation medium." found in an "ELECTROMECHANICAL COMPONENTS & SYSTEMS DESIGN" from November,? 1964. All of my tapes, including DECtape brand, Scotch brand and even a couple of old "Microtape" brand from DEC (before 'dectape' name change) have this feature, so this doesn't appear to be something that appeared recently (as in late in DECtape production or due to old-age in the tapes.) If someone has some detail information on the tape construction, I'd am curious to see it. Thanks, From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 23 19:40:07 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 20:40:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about DECtape formulation Message-ID: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Gary Oliver > I've always thought the physical tape wound on a DECtape spool was a > fairly conventional 'sandwich' of mylar/oxide/mylar ... > Was there some kind of 'lubricating' coat on the data side? It makes > sense, but none of my DEC documents or Googling has any mention of > lubrication ... > If someone has some detail information on the tape construction, I'd am > curious to see it. Dunno if you know of this: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf but it doesn't mention any lubrication, just a "Protective Overlay" layer, over the "Coating" (which I assume is the oxide). I'm a bit surprised that "some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe", though, unless the "various concentrations of isopropanol/water" dissolved the Protective Overlay. Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 23 22:47:18 2022 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 04:47:18 +0000 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: References: <20220123173116.E0B1218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Sorry about the double negative. I was in a hurry as I was supposed to drive over the hill to Santa Cruz for a couple hours. "It is unlikely that no current day OCR will produce an error free listing." Should have read: "It is unlikely that any current day OCR will produce an error free listing." I agree with Chuck. A computer code listing cannot tolerate a single mistake in a number. I recall recovering data from cassette tapes were the tape stuck to the capstan and got folds. Most of the code was in BASIC so had quite a bit of redundancy for the program flow. Luckily, there were few damaged segments with numeric values. The tapes had check sums that helped quite a bit. It is not so in typed listings. As I stated, the code I recovered for the 4004 code would have been lost if I'd not understood the purpose and run the simulation of the code, stopping to see what alternate values did to the execution of the code. It was over 3K of code. Quite a bit for a 4004. It was intended to be loaded into 13 1702A Eproms. There were over 30 points in the code that needed to be resolved. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 10:06 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Typing in lost code It is unlikely that no current day OCR will produce an error free listing. It is possible to train an AI to do this but it requires specific training. It must be on the specific machine code and on the same format. Any generic OCR will have many errors if the text is hard to read. The final product must include notes as to things it is not sure about or it would be useless. I recovered a listing for the 4004 processor that was printed on a ASR33 with ruts on the platen. The right hand 1/4 of letters were missing at several locations across the page. Letters such as F and P, as well as 0 and C were often not well enough printed to distinguish. Luckily F and P were often in context relatively easy to determine but 0 and C were often use to describe a HEX number. Unlike the text on this page, the differences were not always obvious. The final result in working code required noting which things were possibly one or the other. The only way to determine most of these was by using a simulation of the code. Most all the cases for the 0 vrs C were that it was a 0, as these were for initializing a pointer base number ( context of usage ). In one case it was only through the simulation was I able to determine that it was really CC and not 00. Marking locations of uncertainty was essential to determine where to check the program code context. Any OCR that doesn't include possible options and that isn't trained on that particular code is worthless. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 9:31 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Typing in lost code > From: Gavin Scott > I think if I had a whole lot of old faded greenbar etc. ... Someone may > even have done this already See: https://walden-family.com/impcode/imp-code.pdf Someone's already done the specialist OCR to deal with faded program listings. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 24 09:30:57 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 10:30:57 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 23, 2022, at 8:40 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Gary Oliver > >> I've always thought the physical tape wound on a DECtape spool was a >> fairly conventional 'sandwich' of mylar/oxide/mylar ... >> Was there some kind of 'lubricating' coat on the data side? It makes >> sense, but none of my DEC documents or Googling has any mention of >> lubrication ... >> If someone has some detail information on the tape construction, I'd am >> curious to see it. > > Dunno if you know of this: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf > > but it doesn't mention any lubrication, just a "Protective Overlay" layer, > over the "Coating" (which I assume is the oxide). I'm a bit surprised that > "some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe", though, unless the > "various concentrations of isopropanol/water" dissolved the Protective > Overlay. > > Noel Depending on how much the tape has been used, it's possible that the top layer has worn through. I have known that to happen on highly used tapes, though not many got enough to wear that far. It also might be oxide tranferred from one tape to the head to other tapes, if the heads weren't cleaned enough. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 24 09:35:14 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 10:35:14 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6d34dc77-9df0-9daa-85f0-bc6ecb6c6d22@alembic.crystel.com> One way to tell is to do an independent test. I have a ton of Dectape, including some stuff that is probably psychological data from 50 years ago. So what are the exact steps, I'll replicate on some LincTapes and report back. C On 1/24/2022 10:30 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 23, 2022, at 8:40 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> From: Gary Oliver >> >>> I've always thought the physical tape wound on a DECtape spool was a >>> fairly conventional 'sandwich' of mylar/oxide/mylar ... >>> Was there some kind of 'lubricating' coat on the data side? It makes >>> sense, but none of my DEC documents or Googling has any mention of >>> lubrication ... >>> If someone has some detail information on the tape construction, I'd am >>> curious to see it. >> >> Dunno if you know of this: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf >> >> but it doesn't mention any lubrication, just a "Protective Overlay" layer, >> over the "Coating" (which I assume is the oxide). I'm a bit surprised that >> "some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe", though, unless the >> "various concentrations of isopropanol/water" dissolved the Protective >> Overlay. >> >> Noel > > Depending on how much the tape has been used, it's possible that the top layer has worn through. I have known that to happen on highly used tapes, though not many got enough to wear that far. > > It also might be oxide tranferred from one tape to the head to other tapes, if the heads weren't cleaned enough. > > paul > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 24 09:56:17 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 09:56:17 -0600 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <6d34dc77-9df0-9daa-85f0-bc6ecb6c6d22@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6d34dc77-9df0-9daa-85f0-bc6ecb6c6d22@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <4e67a8ae-abde-7f5e-440a-cb99fc0d8c6d@pico-systems.com> Back in 1971 or so, we had a PDP-5 with DECTapes, and bought 3/4" analog recorder tapes surplus to make up new tapes.? It was much thinner than DECTape, and we had print-through issues of tapes that were stored for a few weeks. That seemed to clear up if the tapes were then used again.? I guess the permeability was not as high as real DECTapes. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 24 11:17:16 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:17:16 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <4e67a8ae-abde-7f5e-440a-cb99fc0d8c6d@pico-systems.com> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6d34dc77-9df0-9daa-85f0-bc6ecb6c6d22@alembic.crystel.com> <4e67a8ae-abde-7f5e-440a-cb99fc0d8c6d@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <50615040-1544-4799-9FAC-E653C02AB194@comcast.net> > On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:56 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > Back in 1971 or so, we had a PDP-5 with DECTapes, and bought 3/4" analog recorder tapes surplus to make up new tapes. It was much thinner than DECTape, and we had print-through issues of tapes that were stored for a few weeks. That seemed to clear up if the tapes were then used again. I guess the permeability was not as high as real DECTapes. > Jon It may also be a case of wrong shape hysteresis loop. And standard tape isn't usually sandwich tape as DECtape is, so it would wear fast. paul From go at ao-cs.com Mon Jan 24 11:56:09 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 09:56:09 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/24/22 7:30 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Jan 23, 2022, at 8:40 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> From: Gary Oliver >>> I've always thought the physical tape wound on a DECtape spool was a >>> fairly conventional 'sandwich' of mylar/oxide/mylar ... >>> Was there some kind of 'lubricating' coat on the data side? It makes >>> sense, but none of my DEC documents or Googling has any mention of >>> lubrication ... >>> If someone has some detail information on the tape construction, I'd am >>> curious to see it. >> Dunno if you know of this: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf >> >> but it doesn't mention any lubrication, just a "Protective Overlay" layer, >> over the "Coating" (which I assume is the oxide). I'm a bit surprised that >> "some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe", though, unless the >> "various concentrations of isopropanol/water" dissolved the Protective >> Overlay. >> >> Noel > Depending on how much the tape has been used, it's possible that the top layer has worn through. I have known that to happen on highly used tapes, though not many got enough to wear that far. > > It also might be oxide tranferred from one tape to the head to other tapes, if the heads weren't cleaned enough. > > paul > I also have tried the alcohol wiping on a piece from a 'fresh' tape (never used - still with tape seal) and the results were the same. The procedure was to slightly dampen a piece of lint-less paper towel (e.g. kimwipe) with the alcohol solution and wipe with minimal force over a small portion of the 'data' side of the tape.? (I used 25%, 50% and full strength alcohol and all were identical except for time required to remove the layer.)? Removing the dark brown/grey 'coating', allows the brown oxide to show. After this step, the top and bottom of the tape looked identical (a medium color iron oxide.)? This 'exposed' oxide did not seem to be any easier to scrap off using a sharp exacto knife (no oxide residue when scraping, but clearly left scrape marks on the tape) suggesting there is still a robust protecting layer left on the tape. Also, after removal of the layer with alcohol, there was no apparent thickness change.? I haven't used a micrometer yet to verify, but the 'fingernail' test doesn't indicate any thickness layer boundary between the 'cleaned' and 'uncleaned'? portions. Paul - thanks for the bitsavers reference.? I thought I had copied all of the DEC documents relating to DECtape, but clearly missed that one. -- -Gary From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 24 13:05:45 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:05:45 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2022, at 8:40 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Gary Oliver >> I've always thought the physical tape wound on a DECtape spool was a >> fairly conventional 'sandwich' of mylar/oxide/mylar ... >> Was there some kind of 'lubricating' coat on the data side? It makes >> sense, but none of my DEC documents or Googling has any mention of >> lubrication ... >> If someone has some detail information on the tape construction, I'd am >> curious to see it. > Dunno if you know of this: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf > > but it doesn't mention any lubrication, just a "Protective Overlay" layer, > over the "Coating" (which I assume is the oxide). I'm a bit surprised that > "some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe", though, unless the > "various concentrations of isopropanol/water" dissolved the Protective > Overlay. Looking at that spec some items pop out. The coating is quite thin, much thinner than the backing. Not too surprising actually, if it were thick it would reduce the max possible bit density. There is a coating wear spec (as a ratio of wear resistance relative to an ordinary tape) but no other specs on the coating, such as solvent resistance. There also is no description of what the coating is. I also used to think of DECtape "sandwich" tape as mylar/oxide/mylar, but the documentation doesn't say that. And at a coating thickness of 0.04 mils, it clearly isn't another mylar ribbon layer. It sounds more like some sort of sprayed-on coating of some sort of abrasion-resistent material. It might well be porous, which would be a possible explanation for the oxide coming off when rubbed with solvent. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 24 13:09:30 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:09:30 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1f3cfce8-1956-26e2-ab23-a0e3b45a3ef4@alembic.crystel.com> It sounds more like some sort of sprayed-on coating of some sort of abrasion-resistent material. It might well be porous, which would be a possible explanation for the oxide coming off when rubbed with solvent. > > paul > Is it possible we're looking at something called "dirt"? C From cclist at sytse.net Mon Jan 24 13:34:33 2022 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 20:34:33 +0100 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <1f3cfce8-1956-26e2-ab23-a0e3b45a3ef4@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> <1f3cfce8-1956-26e2-ab23-a0e3b45a3ef4@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7D5DE848-D19D-44CA-B2A2-A90BBB9F2ECC@sytse.net> The other thing on my mind is, high end audio tape from the same period had a coating to reduce static electricity. But that would be on the rear side. > On 24 Jan 2022, at 20:09, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > It sounds more like some sort of sprayed-on coating of some sort of abrasion-resistent material. It might well be porous, which would be a possible explanation for the oxide coming off when rubbed with solvent. >> paul > Is it possible we're looking at something called "dirt"? > > C From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 24 13:46:47 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:46:47 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/24/22 11:05, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Looking at that spec some items pop out. > > The coating is quite thin, much thinner than the backing. Not too surprising actually, if it were thick it would reduce the max possible bit density. > > There is a coating wear spec (as a ratio of wear resistance relative to an ordinary tape) but no other specs on the coating, such as solvent resistance. > > There also is no description of what the coating is. I also used to think of DECtape "sandwich" tape as mylar/oxide/mylar, but the documentation doesn't say that. And at a coating thickness of 0.04 mils, it clearly isn't another mylar ribbon layer. It sounds more like some sort of sprayed-on coating of some sort of abrasion-resistent material. It might well be porous, which would be a possible explanation for the oxide coming off when rubbed with solvent. I think you're pretty close on this. My guess was a lubricant coating; perhaps with some graphite included. It would make sense, as it, not the mylar base is the thing that gets the wear. I have to take a look at some 3M "Black Watch" 1/2" tape, which I (may, allowing for neuron rot) has a similar dark coating on the business side. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 24 13:50:13 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 14:50:13 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <88A51B05-9336-4382-BF5C-8E9A3CF49F7F@comcast.net> > On Jan 24, 2022, at 2:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/24/22 11:05, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> Looking at that spec some items pop out. >> >> The coating is quite thin, much thinner than the backing. Not too surprising actually, if it were thick it would reduce the max possible bit density. >> >> There is a coating wear spec (as a ratio of wear resistance relative to an ordinary tape) but no other specs on the coating, such as solvent resistance. >> >> There also is no description of what the coating is. I also used to think of DECtape "sandwich" tape as mylar/oxide/mylar, but the documentation doesn't say that. And at a coating thickness of 0.04 mils, it clearly isn't another mylar ribbon layer. It sounds more like some sort of sprayed-on coating of some sort of abrasion-resistent material. It might well be porous, which would be a possible explanation for the oxide coming off when rubbed with solvent. > > I think you're pretty close on this. My guess was a lubricant coating; > perhaps with some graphite included. It would make sense, as it, not > the mylar base is the thing that gets the wear. I have to take a look > at some 3M "Black Watch" 1/2" tape, which I (may, allowing for neuron > rot) has a similar dark coating on the business side. I thought Black Watch has coating on the back, as others mentioned. DECtape is not black but brown, so graphite doesn't seem to be involved. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 24 14:42:05 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:42:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question about DECtape formulation Message-ID: <20220124204205.1E39D18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Gary Oliver > Paul - thanks for the bitsavers reference. Ahem! In any case, it's Al who really deserves the credit, for finding that document, and putting it up. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 24 15:24:12 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 13:24:12 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <88A51B05-9336-4382-BF5C-8E9A3CF49F7F@comcast.net> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> <88A51B05-9336-4382-BF5C-8E9A3CF49F7F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1b80a27b-f911-0084-72c8-e1b235a0754e@sydex.com> On 1/24/22 11:50, Paul Koning wrote: > > I thought Black Watch has coating on the back, as others mentioned. DECtape is not black but brown, so graphite doesn't seem to be involved. I grabbed a reel of BW out of my stash and you're correct--the black is on the back. Still, I can see where a lubrication coating on the "business" side would definitely be of benefit. --Chuck From go at ao-cs.com Mon Jan 24 15:43:29 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 13:43:29 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <1f3cfce8-1956-26e2-ab23-a0e3b45a3ef4@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> <1f3cfce8-1956-26e2-ab23-a0e3b45a3ef4@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/22 11:09 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > It sounds more like some sort of sprayed-on coating of some sort of > abrasion-resistent material.? It might well be porous, which would be > a possible explanation for the oxide coming off when rubbed with solvent. >> >> ????paul >> > Is it possible we're looking at something called "dirt"? > > C Not likely, as it's on all of my? tapes, including the four 'unopened' (well, there opened now...) tapes I had in my stash. Brand spanking 'new' in blue plastic boxes, still with seal on tape.? I even had an unused 'scotch' brand that had the seal on the tape, though? that one came in a paper box, so conceivably it could have been 'contaminated'.? But it still looks the same. Also, in reference to another comment: the 'oxide' isn't coming off exactly.? I did have one tape with some really ragged ends on it, and on that one, the oxide did flake a bit.? But that tape had other damage on the leader end.? For the rest of them (tried so far) all I can say is the oxide appeared 'exposed' but on several different tapes I tried 'scraping' this exposed layer with an exacto knife and all that happened is some scratches appeared on the 'overcoat' layer.? No oxide residue on the knife. Sorry if it appears I implied the oxide was degrading.? May on one or two, but this is not a feature of the other 100-ish tapes. I'm guessing it *is* some kind of spray-on 'extra' lubricating coating, so I'm just trying to figure out what it is.? Obviously it's extremely soluble in iso, but that's the 'strongest' thing I've tried.? As I think I mentioned, even water will degrade this layer with some rubbing, but alcohol takes it off quickly.? 'Dry polishing' the tape doesn't seem to degrade the coating, though I do seem some 'smudges' left on the kimwipe. This issue isn't standing in my way of completing the project - I was just checking the 'collective conscience' here if any knew some unpublished secrets or where they were published if not secret. Thanks for all the replies. -Gary From go at ao-cs.com Mon Jan 24 15:45:33 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 13:45:33 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <20220124204205.1E39D18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220124204205.1E39D18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8ce41729-db22-7992-1a6e-36dcca02f179@ao-cs.com> On 1/24/22 12:42 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Gary Oliver > > > Paul - thanks for the bitsavers reference. > > Ahem! > > In any case, it's Al who really deserves the credit, for finding that document, and > putting it up. > > Noel Clearly Al is to blame :-)? Yes, thanks to all of Al's work in this regard.? I found all of the other technical details I needed (and more!) -- -Gary From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jan 24 15:49:17 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:49:17 -0600 Subject: mystery S-100 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89a7a912-3ce2-daed-d8bc-152ea8de85b9@charter.net> FYI, that "unpopulated board" is not and never was S100, and has clearly had some told contact fingers cut off. Perhaps used as a source for parts at some point. You might want to join and post this to the "s100computers" Google group. JRJ On 1/23/2022 1:42 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I have a mystery S-100 computer that I'm would like to sell, from the > estate of the late Ken Gielow (author of Z80DIS, a great Z80 disassembler). > > The proceeds will be donated to a non-tax-deductible magic group Ken was a > long-time member of. > > The computer is located in Cupertino, CA (aka "the heart of Silicon > Valley", in the S.F. Bay Area). (If reopened, you can combine a pickup > with a visit to the Computer History Museum in nearby Mountain View, CA! :) > > This would likely be quite expensive to ship. I'd guess 30+ pounds. > > Photos and some info at: > www.sieler.com/ken_photos > > Some of the hardware (also listed on the above page): > ThinkerToys buss > unknown semi-transparent front panel > spare/uninstalled Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1 front panel > 10 various boards inside > metal case (heavy) > > There may be manuals on some of the boards and/or the Ithaca, but I'm not > sure yet. (They would be included, if they exist.) > > I wanted to take photos of each board, but having been seated for about 40 > years, they don't come out if I tug gently. None have integrated board > lifters, unfortunately > (I tried a boroscope, but could not get useful photos.) > > Based on the labels on some EPROMS, there's a chance that it's a homebrew > TRS-80 clone, with both Level II BASIC and CBASIC, and may have Morrow > DISCUS software on it. > > We're looking for an offer on either: > > - the Ithaca Intersystems front panel; > > - the computer with all the boards > > or both. > > Suggestions welcome, thanks! > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 24 16:57:35 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:57:35 -0700 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> <0C81439C-4AD5-4E06-B55F-091162572C61@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2022-01-23 12:47 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/23/22 10:16, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> Maybe. But OCR programs have had learning features for decades. I've spent quite a lot of time in FineReader learning mode. Material produced on a moderate-quality typewriter, like the CDC 6600 wire lists on Bitsavers, can be handled tolerably well. Especially with post-processing that knows what the text patterns should be and converts common misreadings to what they should be. But the listings I mentioned before were entirely unmanageable even after a lot of "learning mode" effort. An annoying wrinkle was that I wasn't dealing with greenbar but rather with Dutch line printer paper that has every other line marked with 5 thin horizontal lines, almost like music score paper. Faded printout with a worn ribbon on a substrate like that is a challenge even for human eyeballs, and all the "machine learning" hype can't conceal the fact that no machine can come anywhere close to a human for dealing with image recognition under tough conditions. > > The problem is that OCR needs to be 100% accuracy for many purposes. > Much short of that requires that the result be inspected by hand > line-by-line with the knowledge of what makes sense. Mistaking a > single fuzzy 8 for a 6 or a 3, for example can render code inoperative > with a very difficult to locate bug. Perhaps an AI might be programmed > to separate out the nonsense typos. > > Old high-speed line printers weren't always wonderful with timing the > hammer strikes. I recall some nearly impossible to read Univac 1108 > engineering documents, printed on a drum printer. Gave me headaches. > > At least that's my take. > > --Chuck > Document source is also a problem. You would want to keep scan it at the best data format, not something in a lossey format. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 24 18:28:13 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:28:13 -0500 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> <0C81439C-4AD5-4E06-B55F-091162572C61@comcast.net> Message-ID: <408E0A38-C263-40B0-94FE-E7977C4637D2@comcast.net> > On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:57 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > Document source is also a problem. > You would want to keep scan it at the best data format, > not something in a lossey format. That's true generally. Anything other than actual photographs (continuous tone images) should NOT be run through JPEG because JPEG is not intended for, and unfit for, anything else. Printouts, line drawings, and anything else with crisp edges between dark and light will be messed up by JPEG. PNG and TIFF are examples of appropriate compression schemes. paul From drb at msu.edu Mon Jan 24 19:10:46 2022 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 20:10:46 -0500 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:28:13 -0500.) <408E0A38-C263-40B0-94FE-E7977C4637D2@comcast.net> References: <408E0A38-C263-40B0-94FE-E7977C4637D2@comcast.net> <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> <0171D136-46F4-48EB-9242-D8054484E5AF@comcast.net> <0C81439C-4AD5-4E06-B55F-091162572C61@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20220125011046.9D42528CB72@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > That's true generally. Anything other than actual photographs > (continuous tone images) should NOT be run through JPEG because JPEG > is not intended for, and unfit for, anything else. Printouts, line > drawings, and anything else with crisp edges between dark and light > will be messed up by JPEG. PNG and TIFF are examples of appropriate > compression schemes. TIFF actually isn't a compression scheme, it's a tagged file format, and one _can_ specify jpeg compression of images in a TIFF file. Perhaps it would be better to say one should avoid _lossy_ compression schemes on scans with crisp edges or large areas of solid color. These are areas where jpeg will add visible noise. De From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Jan 24 19:54:10 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 20:54:10 -0500 Subject: Typing in lost code In-Reply-To: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> References: <97fcd566-1769-9f6-6635-ef68f842c9c2@757.org> Message-ID: <0d5570d8-857c-a3cb-8535-c35f5a085d71@comcast.net> I've tried to OCR old Fortran Code from DTIC pdf documents.? There were 2 big problems; 1. The copies are very poor to start with and all OCR attempts produced about 75% error rate. 2. Old Fortran code limited variable names to 6 characters so they were generally not descriptive of what they represented.? Some characters in the Fortran variables sometimes were missing in the printout and made recovery nearly impossible. I hope that now gov't contracts require code to be archived electronically for posterity.? Probably never happen. Doug On 1/22/2022 8:06 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > Can the listings be OCR'ed? > > ??????????? - Ethan > > >> Has anyone ever used Amazon Mechanical Turk to employ typists to type in >> old listings of lost code? >> >> Asking for a friend. >> > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 25 00:13:18 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 22:13:18 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> Message-ID: So, can we assume that the words about a "tape sandwich" refer to a mylar base, oxide coating, and a lubricant/protective coating? That is not an oxide coating sandwiched between to layers of mylar. There was such a tape construction, used on the Datamatic 1000. (ca. 1955) --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Mon Jan 24 18:25:29 2022 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:25:29 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 03:09:53PM -0800, Gary Oliver wrote: > Taking the bits of tape, I exposed them to various concentrations of > isopropanol/water (from about 25% to 99% iso) and found than in all cases, > some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe.? The remaining tape > fragment appears intact - the brown oxide was still there but both sides > were now the same color, rather than the data side being darker (as were all > my tapes before the test.) > I had done the careful test to find something safe to clean DECtape. One time I grabbed the wrong bottle and that removed the coating. Tape was now totally unreadable in that location. Didn't have any luck with cleaning helping data errors so stopped trying. This was a long time ago so I don't remember if my incorrect cleaning result matched your description. From go at ao-cs.com Mon Jan 24 21:27:35 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:27:35 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/22 4:25 PM, David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 03:09:53PM -0800, Gary Oliver wrote: > >> Taking the bits of tape, I exposed them to various concentrations of >> isopropanol/water (from about 25% to 99% iso) and found than in all cases, >> some of the data side of the tape came off on the wipe.? The remaining tape >> fragment appears intact - the brown oxide was still there but both sides >> were now the same color, rather than the data side being darker (as were all >> my tapes before the test.) >> > I had done the careful test to find something safe to clean DECtape. One > time I grabbed the wrong bottle and that removed the coating. Tape was now > totally unreadable in that location. Didn't have any luck with cleaning > helping data errors so stopped trying. This was a long time ago so I don't > remember if my incorrect cleaning result matched your description. As to the real reason I was doing this: Most of my tapes are un-boxed and have suffered being in a dusty area (before I got them) with the dust forming a sort of 'crust' on the outside of the tape.? It's only on the first wrap or so, but it's enough that it keeps those handy vinyl cohesive tapes from sticking.? For that reason, I was trying to find something to clean of this dusty gunk so the vinyl strip would hold the tape into a spooled condition. It was the side-effect of this effort that lead me to the discovery if this "removable layer" on the DECtape. BTW, does anyone know of a source for these vinyl strips.? My old ones are 10 mil blue very-flexible vinyl without any adhesive. They rely only on the cohesive properties of vinyl-to-a-non-porous surface.? I tried using some of the 'dry vinyl' sheets from Cricut (the plastic decal printer company.)? They have a couple of colors without adhesive that they call "window cling" but they aree only 4 mills thick and a bit flimsy, though so-far they are holding ok. -Gary -- -Gary From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 25 08:13:27 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:13:27 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: References: <20220124014007.ED0C118C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6F8F471B-316B-43D0-B5A6-369083DD991C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5F3DFDA5-F520-4106-A7DA-D824B62206D1@comcast.net> > On Jan 25, 2022, at 1:13 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > So, can we assume that the words about a "tape sandwich" refer to a > mylar base, oxide coating, and a lubricant/protective coating? > > That is not an oxide coating sandwiched between to layers of mylar. The 3M spec for the media doesn't quite say it, but yes, that implication is unavoidable from what it does say. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 25 08:18:07 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:18:07 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> > On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Gary Oliver via cctech wrote: > >> ... > > As to the real reason I was doing this: Most of my tapes are un-boxed and have suffered being in a dusty area (before I got them) with the dust forming a sort of 'crust' on the outside of the tape. It's only on the first wrap or so, but it's enough that it keeps those handy vinyl cohesive tapes from sticking. For that reason, I was trying to find something to clean of this dusty gunk so the vinyl strip would hold the tape into a spooled condition. It was the side-effect of this effort that lead me to the discovery if this "removable layer" on the DECtape. > > BTW, does anyone know of a source for these vinyl strips. My old ones are 10 mil blue very-flexible vinyl without any adhesive. They rely only on the cohesive properties of vinyl-to-a-non-porous surface. I tried using some of the 'dry vinyl' sheets from Cricut (the plastic decal printer company.) They have a couple of colors without adhesive that they call "window cling" but they aree only 4 mills thick and a bit flimsy, though so-far they are holding ok. There's a children's toy I remember: shapes cut from vinyl, intended to be stuck to windows to make pictures. That seems to be the same stuff. paul From bdweb at mindspring.com Tue Jan 25 14:13:02 2022 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 15:13:02 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9438bb7f-e964-b9ad-173a-3545e4d198ca@mindspring.com> On 1/25/2022 9:18 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Gary Oliver via cctech wrote: >> >>> ... >> As to the real reason I was doing this: Most of my tapes are un-boxed and have suffered being in a dusty area (before I got them) with the dust forming a sort of 'crust' on the outside of the tape. It's only on the first wrap or so, but it's enough that it keeps those handy vinyl cohesive tapes from sticking. For that reason, I was trying to find something to clean of this dusty gunk so the vinyl strip would hold the tape into a spooled condition. It was the side-effect of this effort that lead me to the discovery if this "removable layer" on the DECtape. >> >> BTW, does anyone know of a source for these vinyl strips. My old ones are 10 mil blue very-flexible vinyl without any adhesive. They rely only on the cohesive properties of vinyl-to-a-non-porous surface. I tried using some of the 'dry vinyl' sheets from Cricut (the plastic decal printer company.) They have a couple of colors without adhesive that they call "window cling" but they aree only 4 mills thick and a bit flimsy, though so-far they are holding ok. > There's a children's toy I remember: shapes cut from vinyl, intended to be stuck to windows to make pictures. That seems to be the same stuff. > > paul > Paul, Are you thinking of Colorforms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorforms)? To answer Gary's original question: I did find something at McMaster-Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/128/3973 ("Clear Static-Cling Chemical-Resistant PVC Film"). I don't have any personal experience with it, and it's only 0.007" thick, so it may not meet Gary's needs. But if anyone has used it before for tapes I'd love to know if it works well. --Bjoren From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 25 14:24:03 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 15:24:03 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <9438bb7f-e964-b9ad-173a-3545e4d198ca@mindspring.com> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> <9438bb7f-e964-b9ad-173a-3545e4d198ca@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <7793845B-8EF5-4CF1-A90F-8F78DC2F85D7@comcast.net> > On Jan 25, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/25/2022 9:18 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Gary Oliver via cctech wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>> >>> BTW, does anyone know of a source for these vinyl strips. My old ones are 10 mil blue very-flexible vinyl without any adhesive. They rely only on the cohesive properties of vinyl-to-a-non-porous surface. I tried using some of the 'dry vinyl' sheets from Cricut (the plastic decal printer company.) They have a couple of colors without adhesive that they call "window cling" but they aree only 4 mills thick and a bit flimsy, though so-far they are holding ok. >> There's a children's toy I remember: shapes cut from vinyl, intended to be stuck to windows to make pictures. That seems to be the same stuff. >> >> paul >> > Paul, > > Are you thinking of Colorforms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorforms)? Yes, that's it. I would think those will work fine. I remember having something similar as a kid and what I remember is that the thickness was similar to that of DECtape "little blue things". paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 25 14:24:37 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 12:24:37 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <754900d9-5e44-1d38-9498-29bc750dba7f@sydex.com> On 1/25/22 06:18, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Gary Oliver via cctech wrote: >> >>> ... >> >> As to the real reason I was doing this: Most of my tapes are un-boxed and have suffered being in a dusty area (before I got them) with the dust forming a sort of 'crust' on the outside of the tape. It's only on the first wrap or so, but it's enough that it keeps those handy vinyl cohesive tapes from sticking. For that reason, I was trying to find something to clean of this dusty gunk so the vinyl strip would hold the tape into a spooled condition. It was the side-effect of this effort that lead me to the discovery if this "removable layer" on the DECtape. >> >> BTW, does anyone know of a source for these vinyl strips. My old ones are 10 mil blue very-flexible vinyl without any adhesive. They rely only on the cohesive properties of vinyl-to-a-non-porous surface. I tried using some of the 'dry vinyl' sheets from Cricut (the plastic decal printer company.) They have a couple of colors without adhesive that they call "window cling" but they aree only 4 mills thick and a bit flimsy, though so-far they are holding ok. > > There's a children's toy I remember: shapes cut from vinyl, intended to be stuck to windows to make pictures. That seems to be the same stuff. > The term of art is "cling vinyl" or "static cling vinyl". Most art stores carry the stuff--mine is a package of this: https://www.grafixplastics.com/materials-plastic-film-plastic-sheets/commodity-plastic-film/vinyl-sheets-film/grafix-cling-pvc-film-2/ Cut the strips with a paper cutter and you'll have enough in a package to last you well into your sunset days. --Chuck From go at ao-cs.com Tue Jan 25 16:06:48 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 14:06:48 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <754900d9-5e44-1d38-9498-29bc750dba7f@sydex.com> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> <754900d9-5e44-1d38-9498-29bc750dba7f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54b3e766-42fa-2704-76e5-4f4a94a3ca32@ao-cs.com> On 1/25/22 12:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/25/22 06:18, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Gary Oliver via cctech wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>> As to the real reason I was doing this: Most of my tapes are un-boxed and have suffered being in a dusty area (before I got them) with the dust forming a sort of 'crust' on the outside of the tape. It's only on the first wrap or so, but it's enough that it keeps those handy vinyl cohesive tapes from sticking. For that reason, I was trying to find something to clean of this dusty gunk so the vinyl strip would hold the tape into a spooled condition. It was the side-effect of this effort that lead me to the discovery if this "removable layer" on the DECtape. >>> >>> BTW, does anyone know of a source for these vinyl strips. My old ones are 10 mil blue very-flexible vinyl without any adhesive. They rely only on the cohesive properties of vinyl-to-a-non-porous surface. I tried using some of the 'dry vinyl' sheets from Cricut (the plastic decal printer company.) They have a couple of colors without adhesive that they call "window cling" but they aree only 4 mills thick and a bit flimsy, though so-far they are holding ok. >> There's a children's toy I remember: shapes cut from vinyl, intended to be stuck to windows to make pictures. That seems to be the same stuff. >> > The term of art is "cling vinyl" or "static cling vinyl". Most art > stores carry the stuff--mine is a package of this: > > https://www.grafixplastics.com/materials-plastic-film-plastic-sheets/commodity-plastic-film/vinyl-sheets-film/grafix-cling-pvc-film-2/ > > Cut the strips with a paper cutter and you'll have enough in a package > to last you well into your sunset days. > > --Chuck My search results were dominated (even with 'advanced search') by Amazon and Ebay (naturally) but also by a couple of vendors (Cricut as example) and I never found anything coming up for .10 inch or equivalent in mm.? This appears to be .10 inches without adhesive so I'm going to give this a try. Thanks VERY MUCH for this link. -- -Gary From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 25 16:37:54 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 14:37:54 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <54b3e766-42fa-2704-76e5-4f4a94a3ca32@ao-cs.com> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> <754900d9-5e44-1d38-9498-29bc750dba7f@sydex.com> <54b3e766-42fa-2704-76e5-4f4a94a3ca32@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: On 1/25/22 14:06, Gary Oliver via cctalk wrote: > My search results were dominated (even with 'advanced search') by Amazon > and Ebay (naturally) but also by a couple of vendors (Cricut as example) > and I never found anything coming up for .10 inch or equivalent in mm.? > This appears to be .10 inches without adhesive so I'm going to give this > a try. > > Thanks VERY MUCH for this link. I found another use for the stuff that may be worth mentioning. I repaired a damaged cable jacket--just wrap a strip of the stuff around the damaged area and apply heat sufficient to fuse the stuff to itself. No adhesives involved. --Chuck From go at ao-cs.com Tue Jan 25 18:18:12 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 16:18:12 -0800 Subject: Old Micro Memory core board Message-ID: <1c09bcd6-833d-73d3-24d5-3ec3e7cd993d@ao-cs.com> Going through an old junk pile, I came across a couple of core boards: Micro Memory, Inc. PN 90360 8K*8 (MM-6800)? Date code 7725 I have two boards (s/n 202 and 203) so likely purchased in pairs. Anyone have any information on these?? They have 86 pin connectors so not S-100 though connector is about the same size. For years, these have sit on a shelf on my 'round tuit' list of bringing them up in one of my old S-100 boxes, so I've been cruising along thinking these were 100 pin connectors.? I got them out today so I could find the manual (I have used the MMI s-100 8kx8 boards in an old company project back in 1977 and those were about the same size and form.)? The core board is a daughter board on top of the board with the bus connector and is likely the same module from the S-100 board.? I'm guessing the 86 pin bus is a Motorola Exorciser bus - so I can probable figure it out from there, but I would like to find a manual. I think my company had an Exorciser development system in the late 70s.? These were obtained from a dumpster dive.? Pity I didn't get the rest of the box, if so. As usual, google wasn't extremely helpful with old pedestrian hardware searches. -Gary From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Jan 26 08:16:14 2022 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 08:16:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Datum Front Panels Message-ID: <80262129.38338.1643206574329@email.ionos.com> Some years ago I was on a mission to rack mount all my computer and test equipment. I found three front panels at a hamfest that I planned to use. I never did anything with them but still have them. These are from Datum systems, but they appear to be rather hard to find much information on. The short story is, if anyone needs them for something, let me know. I would hate to do away with them if someone needs them. Two of the panels are marked: Datum, inc Rotating Drum Memory 6008 Datum, inc Data Acquisition System 120 The last isn't marked. A picture is here: http://wrcooke.net/FrontPanels.jpg I will likely be moving in a few months and these are on the "get rid of" list. Thanks, Will From romietoo9ibi at xx.vu Wed Jan 26 08:49:12 2022 From: romietoo9ibi at xx.vu (Alexander Huemer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 14:49:12 +0000 Subject: Searching for information reg. IBM 3979 (Expansion module for 3179G / 3192G coax (3270) terminal) Message-ID: <20220126144912.pxz7ih5p3yzw3xze@ghost.xx.vu> Hi! I am the proud owner of a 3192G coax terminal. As I have recently learned, there is an expansion module for the terminal that allows you to attach a mouse and a IEEE-488 pen plotter to the terminal. Some information about it can be found at [1] and [2]. I am searching for people who are in possession of this expansion unit, out of interest how the PCB looks, etc. If you have one, please respond. -Alex [1] http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3192/GA18-2590-1_IBM_3192-G_Color_Graphics_Display_Station_and_IBM_3279_Expansion_Unit_-_Setup_Instructions_198701.pdf [2] http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapro/alphanumeric_terminals/Datapro_C25_IBM.pdf From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 14:18:13 2022 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 15:18:13 -0500 Subject: 2 microvax 3800's for sale Message-ID: Hello, I had picked up these machines fresh out of high school. I actually worked a deal with the buyer to make payments out of my paycheck for a few weeks till they were paid in full. i have not had the time to focus and get them running. one machine i have had up to the cpu monitor, no internal disk drive. the second machine has some corrosion on the front panel board, where the battery leaked. it iminimal, and the bad battery is removed. open to offers. located in US Florida Looking to sell off excess stuff, i want to focus on my pdp11's and mainframes. From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jan 26 14:49:37 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:49:37 -0800 Subject: 2 microvax 3800's for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25994813-4033-477F-BDBC-B11A29A0E4CF@avanthar.com> It might help people decide if you mention which chassis, and boards these include. I gather they don?t include Hard Drives? If they?re 3800?s, I *assume* they would need DSSI drives? Thankfully you?re amost as far from me as you could be, and still be in the US. Thanks, Zane > On Jan 26, 2022, at 12:18 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > I had picked up these machines fresh out of high school. I actually worked > a deal with the buyer to make payments out of my paycheck for a few weeks > till they were paid in full. i have not had the time to focus and get them > running. > > one machine i have had up to the cpu monitor, no internal disk drive. > > the second machine has some corrosion on the front panel board, where the > battery leaked. it iminimal, and the bad battery is removed. > > open to offers. > > located in US Florida > > Looking to sell off excess stuff, i want to focus on my pdp11's and > mainframes. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 15:30:02 2022 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:30:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 2 microvax 3800's for sale In-Reply-To: <25994813-4033-477F-BDBC-B11A29A0E4CF@avanthar.com> References: <25994813-4033-477F-BDBC-B11A29A0E4CF@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <287867091.2870867.1643232602822@mail.yahoo.com> The first system says no storage. Second system is unspecified. A KA655 does not have onboard DSSI, so DSSI would be via KFQSA/M7769. I've expressed interest in at least one system, tho shipping to California will cost about as much as the hardware. On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 12:49:50 PM PST, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: It might help people decide if you mention which chassis, and boards these include.? I gather they don?t include Hard Drives?? If they?re 3800?s, I *assume* they would need DSSI drives? Thankfully you?re amost as far from me as you could be, and still be in the US. Thanks, Zane > On Jan 26, 2022, at 12:18 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > I had picked up these machines fresh out of high school. I actually worked > a deal with the buyer to make payments out of my paycheck for a few weeks > till they were paid in full. i have not had the time to focus and get them > running. > > one machine i have had up to the cpu monitor, no internal disk drive. > > the second machine has some corrosion on the front panel board, where the > battery leaked. it iminimal, and the bad battery is removed. > > open to offers. > > located in US Florida > > Looking to sell off excess stuff, i want to focus on my pdp11's and > mainframes. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 15:34:17 2022 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:34:17 -0500 Subject: 2 microvax 3800's for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will need to get the details. I have some spare power supplies, tape drives, and a couple hard drives, although im not sure if they are scsi or dssi. Im looking to get some offers and see what i can expect to get for them. I might have put in too much in the first place when i bought them , hopeing to recover some loss while hopefully still giving a reasonable price. i will post back with some pictures. On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 3:18 PM devin davison wrote: > Hello, > > I had picked up these machines fresh out of high school. I actually worked > a deal with the buyer to make payments out of my paycheck for a few weeks > till they were paid in full. i have not had the time to focus and get them > running. > > one machine i have had up to the cpu monitor, no internal disk drive. > > the second machine has some corrosion on the front panel board, where the > battery leaked. it iminimal, and the bad battery is removed. > > open to offers. > > located in US Florida > > Looking to sell off excess stuff, i want to focus on my pdp11's and > mainframes. > From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 15:46:53 2022 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:46:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 2 microvax 3800's for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1538347915.2892651.1643233613800@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022, 01:34:34 PM PST, devin davison via cctalk wrote: [...] >Im looking to get some offers and see what i can expect to get for them. [...] > For comparison purposes, recycledgoods.com has listed a couple of BA213 chassis, still unsold, for at least 18 months. (they are also listed on eBay). IIRC, asking price has gone as low as $750, I bought a Microvax 3600 (?) on eBay about 18 months ago for $500. I got it mounted in a DEC rack with a DEMPR; a GCR (6250bpi) tape drive and controller, an SMD controller and drives, a slew of spare boards; plus a VCB02 (GPX, QDSS) board set with S-handle bulkheads; vt220 console terminal, two moving boxes full of manuals, and other stuff which is slipping my mind. At the other end of the spectrum, the same seller had a lot of 4 microvax and VAXstation (BA213/215) systems which went on eBay for about $3000. Buyer paid air-freight to Scotland. I suspect they're a reseller with customers who still have VAX equipment in production use. From tom94022 at comcast.net Wed Jan 26 12:28:42 2022 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 10:28:42 -0800 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001301d812e2$90097f40$b01c7dc0$@comcast.net> > On Jan 24, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Gary Oliver via cctech wrote: > >> ... > > As to the real reason I was doing this: Most of my tapes are un-boxed and have suffered being in a dusty area (before I got them) with the dust forming a sort of 'crust' on the outside of the tape. It's only on the first wrap or so, but it's enough that it keeps those handy vinyl cohesive tapes from sticking. For that reason, I was trying to find something to clean of this dusty gunk so the vinyl strip would hold the tape into a spooled condition. It was the side-effect of this effort that lead me to the discovery if this "removable layer" on the DECtape. > I talked to a friend who was at DEC during the days of DECTape and thereafter, his comment: ..."I think it is a thin version of the base material, some flavor of polyester film. Most likely a 3M tape. The bit density is so low a little spacing doesn't matter much. ...The UNISERVO I, of Univac I, tape drives had a separate spool of clear very thin film that was clock motor wound across the head when tape was moving, since the phosphor bronze plated tape was very abrasive. That existed long before LINCtape/DECtape." Note that LINCtape is DECtape :-) Tom From stark at mit.edu Wed Jan 26 15:55:46 2022 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:55:46 -0500 Subject: 2 microvax 3800's for sale In-Reply-To: <1538347915.2892651.1643233613800@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1538347915.2892651.1643233613800@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed., Jan. 26, 2022, 16:47 Jonathan Stone via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > At the other end of the spectrum, the same seller had a lot of 4 microvax > and VAXstation (BA213/215) systems which went on eBay for about $3000. > Buyer paid air-freight to Scotland. I suspect they're a reseller with > customers who still have VAX equipment in production use. Is that recently? I saw a lot of crazy prices for known good tested machines years ago but in the last 5-10 years I think all that's gone away. I think it's only collectors left buying these things now. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 26 15:59:53 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:59:53 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <001301d812e2$90097f40$b01c7dc0$@comcast.net> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> <001301d812e2$90097f40$b01c7dc0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <272FED65-4C1F-4207-9CB9-F64A4EA580E3@comcast.net> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:28 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > ...The UNISERVO I, of Univac I, tape drives had a separate spool of clear > very thin film that was clock motor wound across the head when tape was > moving, since the phosphor bronze plated tape was very abrasive. That > existed long before LINCtape/DECtape." > > Note that LINCtape is DECtape :-) Media-wise, yes. The format is very different indeed. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 26 15:59:53 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:59:53 -0500 Subject: Question about DECtape formulation In-Reply-To: <001301d812e2$90097f40$b01c7dc0$@comcast.net> References: <7a9fe0fd-e764-5908-4f77-da04e37a1af9@aerodesic.com> <043B03BB-80AA-4855-AB85-2A12961662F2@comcast.net> <001301d812e2$90097f40$b01c7dc0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <272FED65-4C1F-4207-9CB9-F64A4EA580E3@comcast.net> > On Jan 26, 2022, at 1:28 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > ...The UNISERVO I, of Univac I, tape drives had a separate spool of clear > very thin film that was clock motor wound across the head when tape was > moving, since the phosphor bronze plated tape was very abrasive. That > existed long before LINCtape/DECtape." > > Note that LINCtape is DECtape :-) Media-wise, yes. The format is very different indeed. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 26 17:39:38 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 15:39:38 -0800 Subject: Datum Front Panels In-Reply-To: <80262129.38338.1643206574329@email.ionos.com> References: <80262129.38338.1643206574329@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: I think Datum was an Orange County, CA company mostly.? They also did tape formatters which were used with Pertec (also OC based for initial time) to do NRZI and PE.? I recall that they were similar to the Pertec units, might have been related. A friend worked for them on projects doing programming for their logic as well as design.? They probably bought the disk and fashioned logic and systems to allow it to be used, maybe for a custom unit, or for some mini at one time or another. thanks Jim On 1/26/2022 6:16 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Some years ago I was on a mission to rack mount all my computer and test equipment. I found three front panels at a hamfest that I planned to use. I never did anything with them but still have them. These are from Datum systems, but they appear to be rather hard to find much information on. > > The short story is, if anyone needs them for something, let me know. I would hate to do away with them if someone needs them. Two of the panels are marked: > Datum, inc Rotating Drum Memory 6008 > Datum, inc Data Acquisition System 120 > > The last isn't marked. > A picture is here: > http://wrcooke.net/FrontPanels.jpg > > I will likely be moving in a few months and these are on the "get rid of" list. > > Thanks, > Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 26 17:41:55 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 23:41:55 -0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators Message-ID: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU and I am having some problems with testing them. My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as well as the "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. The problem is that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough startup current to allow the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A max. I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, then they can't start because of the heavy startup current required. I can start them with a lower load and then add load once the regulator is running without breaching the current limit of the PSU. With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get them to start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the regulators draw the full 5A without outputting -15V. I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they could both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that perhaps they need a higher startup current than I can supply. Can anyone confirm this? Thanks Rob From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Jan 26 18:10:49 2022 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 00:10:49 +0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <65d591d19daf4d4482b1541863d95637@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Any chance you have a second supply you can parallel with the one you're using? Some bench supplies are dual supplies and have a parallel mode so you can benefit from both sides of the supply and they can track the same voltage. Or just put two supplies in parallel with the same voltage set on both 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Testing H745 Regulators I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU and I am having some problems with testing them. My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as well as the "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. The problem is that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough startup current to allow the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A max. I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, then they can't start because of the heavy startup current required. I can start them with a lower load and then add load once the regulator is running without breaching the current limit of the PSU. With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get them to start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the regulators draw the full 5A without outputting -15V. I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they could both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that perhaps they need a higher startup current than I can supply. Can anyone confirm this? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 26 18:22:19 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 00:22:19 -0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <65d591d19daf4d4482b1541863d95637@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <65d591d19daf4d4482b1541863d95637@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <024301d81313$f21553e0$d63ffba0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: W2HX > Sent: 27 January 2022 00:11 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Testing H745 Regulators > > Any chance you have a second supply you can parallel with the one you're > using? Some bench supplies are dual supplies and have a parallel mode so > you can benefit from both sides of the supply and they can track the same > voltage. Or just put two supplies in parallel with the same voltage set on both > It is already a twin PSU, I am using one half to power the AC input and the other half to power the +15V input. I do have a separate bench PSU I could use for the +15V and twin up the actual twin PSU, so I might try that next. > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx- > channel/videos > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:42 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Testing H745 Regulators > > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU and I am > having some problems with testing them. > > > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as well as the > "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. The problem is > that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough startup current to allow > the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A max. > > > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, then they > can't start because of the heavy startup current required. I can start them > with a lower load and then add load once the regulator is running without > breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get them to start, > but a 10R load appears to be too much and the regulators draw the full 5A > without outputting -15V. > > > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they could > both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that perhaps they need a > higher startup current than I can supply. Can anyone confirm this? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From lists at glitchwrks.com Wed Jan 26 19:12:28 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 01:12:28 +0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <024301d81313$f21553e0$d63ffba0$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <65d591d19daf4d4482b1541863d95637@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <024301d81313$f21553e0$d63ffba0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Get yourself a largeish 24V transformer, I use an old 8A Stancor: http://www.glitchwrks.com/images/dec/pdp1110_psu_repair/5411086_under_test.jpg The AC input can be between 20-30V so it's not critical. Plenty of other "control transformer" type units would do fine. You shouldn't need a lot of current on the 15V rail. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, January 26th, 2022 at 19:22, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: W2HX w2hx at w2hx.com > > > > Sent: 27 January 2022 00:11 > > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com; General > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: RE: Testing H745 Regulators > > > > Any chance you have a second supply you can parallel with the one you're > > > > using? Some bench supplies are dual supplies and have a parallel mode so > > > > you can benefit from both sides of the supply and they can track the same > > > > voltage. Or just put two supplies in parallel with the same voltage set on > > both > > It is already a twin PSU, I am using one half to power the AC input and the > > other half to power the +15V input. > > I do have a separate bench PSU I could use for the +15V and twin up the > > actual twin PSU, so I might try that next. > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx- > > > > channel/videos > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > > > > cctalk > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:42 PM > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Testing H745 Regulators > > > > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU and I > > am > > > having some problems with testing them. > > > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as well as > > the > > > "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. The problem > > is > > > that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough startup current to > > allow > > > the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A max. > > > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, then they > > > > can't start because of the heavy startup current required. I can start > > them > > > with a lower load and then add load once the regulator is running without > > > > breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get them to > > start, > > > but a 10R load appears to be too much and the regulators draw the full 5A > > > > without outputting -15V. > > > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they could > > > > both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that perhaps they > > need a > > > higher startup current than I can supply. Can anyone confirm this? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Jan 26 21:33:18 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 19:33:18 -0800 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> On 2022-Jan-26, at 3:41 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU and I am > having some problems with testing them. > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as well as the > "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. The problem is > that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough startup current to allow > the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A max. > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, then they > can't start because of the heavy startup current required. I can start them > with a lower load and then add load once the regulator is running without > breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get them to > start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the regulators draw the > full 5A without outputting -15V. > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they could both > have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that perhaps they need a > higher startup current than I can supply. Can anyone confirm this? 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. 15V, 1.5A. In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that which the load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge capacitors. If you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something beyond 'failure to start' is wrong. I would expect this supply to operate at small load regardless. What is happening to the bench supply voltage? Does it go into current limit? Does this bench supply have an adjustable current limit?, so that you could run it up starting at a low current while taking measurements. Or, does the current respond with some linearity to varying the input voltage? What happens with no load R? Are you running it for any length of time at 5A? (Sounds like a bad idea at this point) Anything getting warm? Is the 723 socketed? Pull it and run it up while watching what happens around the drive transistors and elsewhere. If the 723 is not socketed, consider pulling Q5 or opening it's emitter connection. With no drive to the drive transistors, input current should be nil. Are any of the drive transistors socketed, so they could be measured out of circuit? and other R measurements made without them in circuit? Pull F1 to isolate circuitry. Still draws current? Have you looked for shorts/leaks?, especially leaky junctions in transistors Q2::Q5. e.g. R measurements, no F1, no load R, both directions: Q2.B-C ? Q2.E-GND ? Q2.C-GND ? -15-GND ? Settling time for cap charge/discharge may be needed. In answer to your earlier question, no, the +15V is not the reference, it is the supply for the 723 regulator IC. The reference is the internal reference provided by the 723, though that internal reference is powered inside the IC from the +15V. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 00:27:21 2022 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 07:27:21 +0100 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: The guys at RICM have seen a problem with these supplies that if the output cap is bad it won't start switching properly. It goes into a mode where it acts as a linear regulator. As far as I remember they the a spice simulation that also indicated this when the output cap had low capacitance. Do you see switch pulses coming out of the 723? As suggested earlier it is a good idea to have a real AC source that is not going to fold back when you put some load on to the H745. Does it switch correctly with less load? /Mattis Den tors 27 jan. 2022 kl 00:42 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU and I > am > having some problems with testing them. > > > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as well as > the > "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. The problem is > that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough startup current to allow > the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A max. > > > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, then they > can't start because of the heavy startup current required. I can start them > with a lower load and then add load once the regulator is running without > breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get them to > start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the regulators draw the > full 5A without outputting -15V. > > > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they could > both > have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that perhaps they need a > higher startup current than I can supply. Can anyone confirm this? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 10:19:23 2022 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 08:19:23 -0800 Subject: simulation of an entire IBM S/360 Model 50 mainframe Message-ID: <1643300363.2163.5.camel@moondog> This might be old news to a lot of people here, but I noticed a fun article on The Register today: Hardware boffin is building a simulation of an entire IBM S/360 Model 50 mainframe https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/27/ibm_s360_simulation/ The article has a handy link to a post on Ken Shirriff's blog: https://www.righto.com/2022/01/ibm360model50.html While I'm kind of a "DEC guy", I still have a certain nostalgic fondness for the IBM System/360, since that was my first in-depth exposure to computer programming. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 13:54:13 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:54:13 +0100 Subject: simulation of an entire IBM S/360 Model 50 mainframe In-Reply-To: <1643300363.2163.5.camel@moondog> References: <1643300363.2163.5.camel@moondog> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 17:20, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > This might be old news to a lot of people here, but I noticed a fun > article on The Register today: Oh cool. Thanks for the link -- that's one of my stories. Glad to hear people enjoyed it. :-) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 22:53:22 2022 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 20:53:22 -0800 Subject: simulation of an entire IBM S/360 Model 50 mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, it was you Liam. Ken is enamored with the new title you bestowed on him. He will now be officially called: Master Ken, Hardware Boffin. :-) Marc > On Jan 27, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 17:20, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: >> >> This might be old news to a lot of people here, but I noticed a fun >> article on The Register today: > > Oh cool. Thanks for the link -- that's one of my stories. Glad to hear > people enjoyed it. :-) > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 28 23:28:30 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 00:28:30 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? Message-ID: Old question: I'm looking through some old reports from 1977 about a failed DEC project with the DMX11 multiplexer system and there is reference to the following key items: 1) The DMX was designed to handle block mode devices. Fine. 2) Character mode devices like the VT52's were supposed to use a "TCD" product from DEC. The reason the project imploded was because apparently DEC stopped supporting the TCD in RSX11/D in late 1976, so someone in CSS had the great idea of agreeing to extend the microcode in the DMX11 to handle both block AND character mode devices. This did.... not work well and it sank the project. What I'm wondering is what was the TCD for PDP11's back then? I don't see anything in my communications handbooks on this, and even the DMX11 doesn't really appear, instead there is the COMM/IO/P type boards which worked with a pile of DZ11's. From what I can glean from this documentation it looks like the DMX11 worked in a similar fashion as the requirement was the DMX11 system was a nine board solution (possibly 8 DZ11's and one controller board). More odd it looks like the TCD *was* still supported in RSX11/M and ultimately the decision was made to build the thing in M so it's weird they continued to whack away at the DMX solution instead of going with TCD's for async and proven DMX microcode for block devices. Any thoughts, or does this jog any memories? C From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 29 09:24:56 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:24:56 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F4B4A3F-4114-4FF9-9D6C-28AA7E26E475@comcast.net> > On Jan 29, 2022, at 12:28 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Old question: I'm looking through some old reports from 1977 about a failed DEC project with the DMX11 multiplexer system and there is reference to the following key items: > > 1) The DMX was designed to handle block mode devices. Fine. > 2) Character mode devices like the VT52's were supposed to use a "TCD" product from DEC. > > The reason the project imploded was because apparently DEC stopped supporting the TCD in RSX11/D in late 1976, so someone in CSS had the great idea of agreeing to extend the microcode in the DMX11 to handle both block AND character mode devices. This did.... not work well and it sank the project. > > What I'm wondering is what was the TCD for PDP11's back then? I don't see anything in my communications handbooks on this, and even the DMX11 doesn't really appear, instead there is the COMM/IO/P type boards which worked with a pile of DZ11's. From what I can glean from this documentation it looks like the DMX11 worked in a similar fashion as the requirement was the DMX11 system was a nine board solution (possibly 8 DZ11's and one controller board). > > More odd it looks like the TCD *was* still supported in RSX11/M and ultimately the decision was made to build the thing in M so it's weird they continued to whack away at the DMX solution instead of going with TCD's for async and proven DMX microcode for block devices. > > Any thoughts, or does this jog any memories? Nothing comes to mind here; the name "DMX" does not ring any bells. It's a bit before my time, admittedly. DEC made some products that used block mode terminals: the moderately successful Typeset-11 with the VT-61/t forms and page editing terminal, and the VT-71 with embedded LSI-11 to do full file local editing. Both have some form of block transfer to the host, but as far as I can remember they used ordinary DH-11 terminal interfaces. DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions, which is unhelpful for interactive use but great for block transfer. Typeset-11 also supported a specialized terminal made by Harris (the 2200), another local processor device, this one connected to the PDP-11 host with a DL-11/E, using half duplex multidrop BISYNC with modem signal handshakes. I kid you not... I have some scars debugging that protocol at 2 am in downtown Philadelphia. DEC also built yet another VT-51 variation, the VT-62, which was the terminal for the TRAX system. That was, I think, some sort of RSX derivative (-M+ perhaps, but I'm not sure), which made it to field test but was canceled before becoming an official product. Not sure why. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 29 14:58:53 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 15:58:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? Message-ID: <20220129205853.15EEA18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. Noel PS: I am familiar with the term 'terminal concentrator' from the networking world, but as a generic term, not the name of a particular product. (Although Cisco's first boxes may have included a terminal concentrator, so named.) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 29 16:12:41 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:12:41 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <20220129205853.15EEA18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220129205853.15EEA18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <684F1FCF-A6E6-4F3C-AC39-ADA1504FC9E1@comcast.net> > On Jan 29, 2022, at 3:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions > > McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf > > it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. Oh. That's amazing, all these years I thought it had DMA both ways. Clearly not. I wonder how I got that misunderstanding. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 29 17:49:06 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:49:06 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <684F1FCF-A6E6-4F3C-AC39-ADA1504FC9E1@comcast.net> References: <20220129205853.15EEA18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <684F1FCF-A6E6-4F3C-AC39-ADA1504FC9E1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <24F062E4-8B26-4EB3-A573-B47C69A53B67@alembic.crystel.com> Maybe that is the dhv11. Or the dv11 I'll look it up tomorrow On January 29, 2022 5:12:41 PM EST, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 29, 2022, at 3:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> From: Paul Koning >> >>> DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions >> >> McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf >> >> it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. > >Oh. That's amazing, all these years I thought it had DMA both ways. Clearly not. I wonder how I got that misunderstanding. > > paul > -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 18:47:27 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:47:27 -0800 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <24F062E4-8B26-4EB3-A573-B47C69A53B67@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220129205853.15EEA18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <684F1FCF-A6E6-4F3C-AC39-ADA1504FC9E1@comcast.net> <24F062E4-8B26-4EB3-A573-B47C69A53B67@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-DHQ11-UG-002.pdf DHQ11 User Guide, EK-DHQ11-UG.002 The main application of the M3107 DHQ11 is for interactive terminal handling; it can also be used for data concentration and real-time processing. It has two programming modes, DHV11 and DHU11. The register sets in these modes are compatible with those of the DHV11 and DHU11 respectively. The preferred mode of operation is DHU11 mode. The main features of the DHQ11 are: ? For transmission: DMA transfers; or for each line, program transfers to a 1 character transmit buffer in DHV11 mode, or to a 64-character transmit FIFO in DHU11 mode ? For receive: a 256-entry FIFO buffer for received characters, dataset status changes, and diagnostic information The M3118 CXA16 and the M3119 CXA08 have the same programming interface as the M3107 DHQ11 The M3108 DSV11 can do DMA transfers in both directions, although it is a synchronous interface, not asynchronous. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-DSV11-TM-001_Jan87.pdf DSV11 Technical Manual, EK-DSV11-TM-001 Functional Description (Section 1.5). The DSV11 supports a range of synchronous protocols on the serial interface, and transfers data to and from the host by DMA transfer. This section describes the way in which the DSV11 handles data. On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 3:49 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe that is the dhv11. Or the dv11 I'll look it up tomorrow > > On January 29, 2022 5:12:41 PM EST, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Jan 29, 2022, at 3:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> From: Paul Koning > >> > >>> DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions > >> > >> McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: > >> > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf > >> > >> it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. > > > >Oh. That's amazing, all these years I thought it had DMA both ways. Clearly not. I wonder how I got that misunderstanding. > > > > paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 30 08:26:46 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 09:26:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? Message-ID: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > Maybe that is the dhv11. The DH11, DHV11 and DHU11 are all very similar, although not 100.00% program compatible. (The DHQ11 can be set to exactly emulate either the DHV11 or DHU11.) So, all provide DMA output, but not DMA input. Differences with the DH11 include two full word registers for DMA address, hardware ^S/^Q support, built-in diagnostics, etc. The DHV11 and DHU11 differ in hardware echo, output FIFO, a fix for the infamous DH11 input silo level bug, etc. Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 30 13:43:19 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 14:43:19 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> Hm. Looking i see the dj11 had a silo but not dma. The only thing I can see that did Async DMA was the COMM-IO-P board. That was a product in 1980 timeframe, based on the KMC11 processor. With six DZ11's you have 48 serial ports in a 9 board configuration. Now for trying to unravel what the hell a DMX11 was... The 9 board concept for 48 ports matches what I see in the Sha Tin documentation from mid 1977. Apparently the DMX11 was developed by DEC in 1975-1976 and was a product certified for block mode devices, but the first version delivered in early 1976 was literally a breadboarded monster. In the notes it says that DEC originally expected the DMX11 to provide block mode only (to the cashier and ticket printing machines which operated in block mode) but signed a contract addendum saying that the DMX microcode would be upgraded to support block and async mode on the same controller so they could support VT52's for interactive applications as well. Apparently this would make the DMX a better product to sell into other environments and would be a "simple upgrade". Turns out it was not. And this became a CSS Australia disaster that sank the whole race track. Constant hardware and software patches were delivered as DEC tried to fit the increased microcode on a single board as the HK Jockey Club held insanely firmly to the contract requirement that the 48 port serial interface fit in a 9 board layout. Given that they couldn't change the DZ11's, they tried to mush down the logic in the DMX11 control board and that plus the change requirement to make it handle block mode devices and interactive devices doomed the whole project. From what I can see, the the kmc11 was an M8204 single board which is different from the 8200 used in the dmc11. I had a DMC11 somewhere. From the books, the kmc11 had an "lsi11 on board", 1k of 16 bit ram, 1k of 8 bit data memory a 300ns cycle time, 16 bit microprossor with a 16 bit micro-instruction bus and 8 bit data path. This is according to the 1980 Terminal and Communications handbook, so it's a few years after the 1976 timeframe of Sha Tin. Now the original LSI11 processor was 4 main chips, an EIS/FIS chip (or the CIS lite chip or the weird 1k*20 bit micro-ram board which I have somewhere). The DCT11 was a single chip lsi11 that had an 8 or 16 bit outside bus and a 16 bit internal structure and ran pdp11 instructions. So the KMC11 probably had the DCT11 chip. The LSI11 chipset was around in 1975, so it makes sense that DEC could use it. The SBC11/21 came out in 1981 but the chip was probably avail internally by 1980 so I'm guessing that the KMC11 and the COMM-IO-DP was using the DCT11. But Sha Tin was 1975-1976. Perhaps the DMX11 was an early concept version of a KMC11 that had the original LSI11 chip set of 4 chips running the show with a set of six DZ11's and a smaller amount of memory. But there wasn't enough space for additional memory to handle the extra features and DEC got stuck. Maybe part of that mushing work led to the LSI11 being fewer chips (the PDT11 has only 4 chips but EIS/FIS thanks to one of the chips being a dual carrier of MicroRoms) and ultimately to the DCT11. One item that could really help would be RSX11D version notes. According to the documentation the DMX11 was supported in RSX11/D but support was dropped in 1976. They switched to RSX11/M where it was still supported. Weird stuff. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 14:02:18 2022 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 14:02:18 -0600 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver Message-ID: In order to further the effort of scanning and preserving ALL of the things, I picked up a Canon Microfilm Scanner 300 for $cheap. It has a SCSI interface and doesn't work with anything past Windows XP, but that's not a problem. What is a problem is that Canon's link to the XP driver is a big 4 0 4: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/details/scanners/support-micrographic-scanners/microfilm-scanner-300/microfilm-scanner-300?tab=drivers_downloads By any chance, does someone out there have this driver? The filename in question is "300350DRIT_V11.exe". You can google that name and end up either back at Canon's site or in Malware Hell ("just download this Chrome plugin to get your driver!"). Note that this is not the Canon Microfilm Scanner 300-II, which is a USB device and uses a different driver. Thanks for any leads... jt From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 30 14:07:40 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:07:40 -0500 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/30/22 15:02, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > In order to further the effort of scanning and preserving ALL of the > things, I picked up a Canon Microfilm Scanner 300 for $cheap. It has > a SCSI interface and doesn't work with anything past Windows XP, but > that's not a problem. What is a problem is that Canon's link to the > XP driver is a big 4 0 4: > > https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/details/scanners/support-micrographic-scanners/microfilm-scanner-300/microfilm-scanner-300?tab=drivers_downloads > > By any chance, does someone out there have this driver? The filename > in question is "300350DRIT_V11.exe". You can google that name and end > up either back at Canon's site or in Malware Hell ("just download this > Chrome plugin to get your driver!"). > > Note that this is not the Canon Microfilm Scanner 300-II, which is a > USB device and uses a different driver. > > Thanks for any leads... > Any chance it might work under SANE on a linux or BSD box? bill From jim at deitygraveyard.com Sun Jan 30 14:36:45 2022 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:36:45 -0500 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:02 PM Jason T via cctalk wrote: > By any chance, does someone out there have this driver? The filename > in question is "300350DRIT_V11.exe". You can google that name and end > up either back at Canon's site or in Malware Hell ("just download this > Chrome plugin to get your driver!"). How about http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350INF.exe ? Jim From jim at deitygraveyard.com Sun Jan 30 14:51:27 2022 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:51:27 -0500 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:36 PM Jim Carpenter wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:02 PM Jason T via cctalk > wrote: > > By any chance, does someone out there have this driver? The filename > > in question is "300350DRIT_V11.exe". You can google that name and end > > up either back at Canon's site or in Malware Hell ("just download this > > Chrome plugin to get your driver!"). > > How about http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350INF.exe ? Nevermind. Too small. Just the INF files. Sorry. :( Jim From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 15:39:18 2022 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 16:39:18 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Back in 75-77 time frame, the KMC11 was packaged with DD11 backplane, a controller interface board or an SLU to implement version 2 of the DoD AUTODIN II. Philco Ford element then called Aeronuetronic Ford out ot Cali was the prime. DEC won the hardware portion bidding PDP11 systems using the KMC11 and SLUs ranging from Mode1 to Mode VI. I did the SLUs for Mode VI (ADCCP/SDLC et al) and Mode II (BiSync) out of the Comms 11 group. CSS Nashua did the Async system with I think 64 lines, or more, and labeled it DMX IIRC - my memory could be bad on the name.The COMM IOP concept was another alternative using the DZ/DU boards. Barney Loiter, if he is still around can probably remember who in CSS did the product. I think Frank Zareski, who had moved from Comms group to Semiconductor was involved with or the lead for the DUAL UART chips DEC invented (point for the record, the original UART was designed by DEC, Vince Bastiani was the project lead and designer, Gordon Bell was behind the project, and it may have been his idea.) On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 1:00 PM wrote: > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: simulation of an entire IBM S/360 Model 50 mainframe > (Curious Marc) > 2. What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? > (Chris Zach) > 3. Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? (Paul Koning) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 20:53:22 -0800 > From: Curious Marc > To: Liam Proven , "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: simulation of an entire IBM S/360 Model 50 mainframe > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Ah, it was you Liam. Ken is enamored with the new title you bestowed on him. He will now be officially called: Master Ken, Hardware Boffin. > :-) > Marc > > > On Jan 27, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > > ?On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 17:20, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> This might be old news to a lot of people here, but I noticed a fun > >> article on The Register today: > > > > Oh cool. Thanks for the link -- that's one of my stories. Glad to hear > > people enjoyed it. :-) > > > > -- > > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com > > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 00:28:30 -0500 > From: Chris Zach > To: CCTalk mailing list > Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Old question: I'm looking through some old reports from 1977 about a > failed DEC project with the DMX11 multiplexer system and there is > reference to the following key items: > > 1) The DMX was designed to handle block mode devices. Fine. > 2) Character mode devices like the VT52's were supposed to use a "TCD" > product from DEC. > > The reason the project imploded was because apparently DEC stopped > supporting the TCD in RSX11/D in late 1976, so someone in CSS had the > great idea of agreeing to extend the microcode in the DMX11 to handle > both block AND character mode devices. This did.... not work well and it > sank the project. > > What I'm wondering is what was the TCD for PDP11's back then? I don't > see anything in my communications handbooks on this, and even the DMX11 > doesn't really appear, instead there is the COMM/IO/P type boards which > worked with a pile of DZ11's. From what I can glean from this > documentation it looks like the DMX11 worked in a similar fashion as the > requirement was the DMX11 system was a nine board solution (possibly 8 > DZ11's and one controller board). > > More odd it looks like the TCD *was* still supported in RSX11/M and > ultimately the decision was made to build the thing in M so it's weird > they continued to whack away at the DMX solution instead of going with > TCD's for async and proven DMX microcode for block devices. > > Any thoughts, or does this jog any memories? > > C > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:24:56 -0500 > From: Paul Koning > To: Chris Zach , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Subject: Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? > Message-ID: <7F4B4A3F-4114-4FF9-9D6C-28AA7E26E475 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > On Jan 29, 2022, at 12:28 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > > Old question: I'm looking through some old reports from 1977 about a failed DEC project with the DMX11 multiplexer system and there is reference to the following key items: > > > > 1) The DMX was designed to handle block mode devices. Fine. > > 2) Character mode devices like the VT52's were supposed to use a "TCD" product from DEC. > > > > The reason the project imploded was because apparently DEC stopped supporting the TCD in RSX11/D in late 1976, so someone in CSS had the great idea of agreeing to extend the microcode in the DMX11 to handle both block AND character mode devices. This did.... not work well and it sank the project. > > > > What I'm wondering is what was the TCD for PDP11's back then? I don't see anything in my communications handbooks on this, and even the DMX11 doesn't really appear, instead there is the COMM/IO/P type boards which worked with a pile of DZ11's. From what I can glean from this documentation it looks like the DMX11 worked in a similar fashion as the requirement was the DMX11 system was a nine board solution (possibly 8 DZ11's and one controller board). > > > > More odd it looks like the TCD *was* still supported in RSX11/M and ultimately the decision was made to build the thing in M so it's weird they continued to whack away at the DMX solution instead of going with TCD's for async and proven DMX microcode for block devices. > > > > Any thoughts, or does this jog any memories? > > Nothing comes to mind here; the name "DMX" does not ring any bells. It's a bit before my time, admittedly. > > DEC made some products that used block mode terminals: the moderately successful Typeset-11 with the VT-61/t forms and page editing terminal, and the VT-71 with embedded LSI-11 to do full file local editing. Both have some form of block transfer to the host, but as far as I can remember they used ordinary DH-11 terminal interfaces. DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions, which is unhelpful for interactive use but great for block transfer. Typeset-11 also supported a specialized terminal made by Harris (the 2200), another local processor device, this one connected to the PDP-11 host with a DL-11/E, using half duplex multidrop BISYNC with modem signal handshakes. I kid you not... I have some scars debugging that protocol at 2 am in downtown Philadelphia. > > DEC also built yet another VT-51 variation, the VT-62, which was the terminal for the TRAX system. That was, I think, some sort of RSX derivative (-M+ perhaps, but I'm not sure), which made it to field test but was canceled before becoming an official product. Not sure why. > > paul > > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 29 > ************************************** From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 15:42:17 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 13:42:17 -0800 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:52 PM Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:36 PM Jim Carpenter wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:02 PM Jason T via cctalk > > wrote: > > > By any chance, does someone out there have this driver? The filename > > > in question is "300350DRIT_V11.exe". You can google that name and end > > > up either back at Canon's site or in Malware Hell ("just download this > > > Chrome plugin to get your driver!"). > > > > How about http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350INF.exe ? > > Nevermind. Too small. Just the INF files. Sorry. :( Just manually edit that URL with the desired filename: https://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350DRIT_V11.exe Directory of C:\tmp 11/21/2005 03:20 AM 7,200,768 300350DRIT_V11.exe That's a self-extracting ZIP file. You can rename it to 300350DRIT_V11.zip and extract the files that way, From john at forecast.name Sun Jan 30 15:44:32 2022 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 16:44:32 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <79185534-2127-4C0E-90C9-42484F5E05C2@forecast.name> > On Jan 30, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Hm. Looking i see the dj11 had a silo but not dma. > > The only thing I can see that did Async DMA was the COMM-IO-P board. That was a product in 1980 timeframe, based on the KMC11 processor. With six DZ11's you have 48 serial ports in a 9 board configuration. > > Now for trying to unravel what the hell a DMX11 was... > > The 9 board concept for 48 ports matches what I see in the Sha Tin documentation from mid 1977. Apparently the DMX11 was developed by DEC in 1975-1976 and was a product certified for block mode devices, but the first version delivered in early 1976 was literally a breadboarded monster. > > In the notes it says that DEC originally expected the DMX11 to provide block mode only (to the cashier and ticket printing machines which operated in block mode) but signed a contract addendum saying that the DMX microcode would be upgraded to support block and async mode on the same controller so they could support VT52's for interactive applications as well. Apparently this would make the DMX a better product to sell into other environments and would be a "simple upgrade". > > Turns out it was not. And this became a CSS Australia disaster that sank the whole race track. > Is it possible that the DMX11 was a CSS product? If so, each region or country might develop their own products and other parts of DEC would never know it existed. About the time you are talking about (1975-1976) I was working on a steel works railway automation system in Sweden utilizing custom ruggedized terminals (RT04, maybe 10 keys, each 1.5? x 1?, RS232) and a pair of reed-relay switches so the terminals could be switched between a pair of active/passive PDP-11/40?s. Until we actually moved into the custom built machine-room, nobody realized that reed-relays would be located <50ft from a pair of blast furnaces and, whenever they were switched on, the terminals ended up randomly connected to one of the systems. The following year I had moved to Maynard and I could find any information about the project and/or the custom hardware. > Constant hardware and software patches were delivered as DEC tried to fit the increased microcode on a single board as the HK Jockey Club held insanely firmly to the contract requirement that the 48 port serial interface fit in a 9 board layout. Given that they couldn't change the DZ11's, they tried to mush down the logic in the DMX11 control board and that plus the change requirement to make it handle block mode devices and interactive devices doomed the whole project. > > From what I can see, the the kmc11 was an M8204 single board which is different from the 8200 used in the dmc11. I had a DMC11 somewhere. > > From the books, the kmc11 had an "lsi11 on board", 1k of 16 bit ram, 1k of 8 bit data memory a 300ns cycle time, 16 bit microprossor with a 16 bit micro-instruction bus and 8 bit data path. This is according to the 1980 Terminal and Communications handbook, so it's a few years after the 1976 timeframe of Sha Tin. > > Now the original LSI11 processor was 4 main chips, an EIS/FIS chip (or the CIS lite chip or the weird 1k*20 bit micro-ram board which I have somewhere). The DCT11 was a single chip lsi11 that had an 8 or 16 bit outside bus and a 16 bit internal structure and ran pdp11 instructions. So the KMC11 probably had the DCT11 chip. > > The LSI11 chipset was around in 1975, so it makes sense that DEC could use it. The SBC11/21 came out in 1981 but the chip was probably avail internally by 1980 so I'm guessing that the KMC11 and the COMM-IO-DP was using the DCT11. > While, in retrospect, it may have made sense to use a DCT11 and the, later, Falcon chip that was never the case with the KMC11. The documentation on Bitsavers indicates that the instruction set is most definitely not PDP-11 like. > But Sha Tin was 1975-1976. Perhaps the DMX11 was an early concept version of a KMC11 that had the original LSI11 chip set of 4 chips running the show with a set of six DZ11's and a smaller amount of memory. But there wasn't enough space for additional memory to handle the extra features and DEC got stuck. Maybe part of that mushing work led to the LSI11 being fewer chips (the PDT11 has only 4 chips but EIS/FIS thanks to one of the chips being a dual carrier of MicroRoms) and ultimately to the DCT11. > > One item that could really help would be RSX11D version notes. According to the documentation the DMX11 was supported in RSX11/D but support was dropped in 1976. They switched to RSX11/M where it was still supported. > RSX-11D V6.2 was released in June 1975. This was the last release of RSX-11D as a separate product, subsequently it was merged with IAS with an option to generate a ?real-time? system from a common distribution. John. > Weird stuff. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 15:46:00 2022 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 16:46:00 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IIRC, John Mac was the designer for the DHQ/DHV. If my memory is correct, after DH was done, John had the idea of a mix and match synchronous/Async mux and came up with those designs. I dont remember who was on his team. COMMS 11 group had led (farmed out) the designs of the Sync version of a UART called USynRT in some parlance SIg 2652 and SMC 5027 IIFC. I ran the Signetics contract tech side. A fresh MIT PhD was the Sig POC, and there are more stories about that. I cant recall his name at this juncture. bob On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 1:00 PM wrote: > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? (Noel Chiappa) > 2. Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? (Paul Koning) > 3. Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? (Chris Zach) > 4. Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? (Glen Slick) > 5. Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? (Noel Chiappa) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 15:58:53 -0500 (EST) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? > Message-ID: <20220129205853.15EEA18C07B at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > > From: Paul Koning > > > DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions > > McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf > > it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. > > Noel > > PS: I am familiar with the term 'terminal concentrator' from the networking > world, but as a generic term, not the name of a particular product. (Although > Cisco's first boxes may have included a terminal concentrator, so named.) > > Noel > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:12:41 -0500 > From: Paul Koning > To: Noel Chiappa , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Subject: Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? > Message-ID: <684F1FCF-A6E6-4F3C-AC39-ADA1504FC9E1 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > On Jan 29, 2022, at 3:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > >> From: Paul Koning > > > >> DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions > > > > McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf > > > > it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. > > Oh. That's amazing, all these years I thought it had DMA both ways. Clearly not. I wonder how I got that misunderstanding. > > paul > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:49:06 -0500 > From: Chris Zach > To: Paul Koning , "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Paul Koning via > cctalk , Noel Chiappa > , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Subject: Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? > Message-ID: <24F062E4-8B26-4EB3-A573-B47C69A53B67 at alembic.crystel.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Maybe that is the dhv11. Or the dv11 I'll look it up tomorrow > > On January 29, 2022 5:12:41 PM EST, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Jan 29, 2022, at 3:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> From: Paul Koning > >> > >>> DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions > >> > >> McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: > >> > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf > >> > >> it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. > > > >Oh. That's amazing, all these years I thought it had DMA both ways. Clearly not. I wonder how I got that misunderstanding. > > > > paul > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:47:27 -0800 > From: Glen Slick > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-DHQ11-UG-002.pdf > DHQ11 User Guide, EK-DHQ11-UG.002 > > The main application of the M3107 DHQ11 is for interactive terminal > handling; it can also be used for data concentration and real-time > processing. It has two programming modes, DHV11 and DHU11. The > register sets in these modes are compatible with those of the DHV11 > and DHU11 respectively. The preferred mode of operation is DHU11 mode. > The main features of the DHQ11 are: > > ? For transmission: DMA transfers; or for each line, program transfers > to a 1 character transmit buffer in DHV11 mode, or to a 64-character > transmit FIFO in DHU11 mode > > ? For receive: a 256-entry FIFO buffer for received characters, > dataset status changes, and diagnostic information > > The M3118 CXA16 and the M3119 CXA08 have the same programming > interface as the M3107 DHQ11 > > > The M3108 DSV11 can do DMA transfers in both directions, although it > is a synchronous interface, not asynchronous. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-DSV11-TM-001_Jan87.pdf > DSV11 Technical Manual, EK-DSV11-TM-001 > > Functional Description (Section 1.5). The DSV11 supports a range of > synchronous protocols on the serial interface, and transfers data to > and from the host by DMA transfer. This section describes the way in > which the DSV11 handles data. > > On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 3:49 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Maybe that is the dhv11. Or the dv11 I'll look it up tomorrow > > > > On January 29, 2022 5:12:41 PM EST, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On Jan 29, 2022, at 3:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > >> > > >>> From: Paul Koning > > >> > > >>> DH-11 is unusual in that it has DMA in both directions > > >> > > >> McNamara's DH11? (I don't know of another DECdevice of that name.) Per: > > >> > > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/EK-ODH11-OP-002_DH11_Asynchronous_16-line_Multiplexer_Users_Manual_Sep76.pdf > > >> > > >> it's DMA on output only; the input side has a FIFO that has to be emptied by the CPU. > > > > > >Oh. That's amazing, all these years I thought it had DMA both ways. Clearly not. I wonder how I got that misunderstanding. > > > > > > paul > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 09:26:46 -0500 (EST) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's > products? > Message-ID: <20220130142646.5614818C074 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > > From: Chris Zach > > > Maybe that is the dhv11. > > The DH11, DHV11 and DHU11 are all very similar, although not 100.00% program compatible. > (The DHQ11 can be set to exactly emulate either the DHV11 or DHU11.) So, all provide > DMA output, but not DMA input. > > Differences with the DH11 include two full word registers for DMA address, > hardware ^S/^Q support, built-in diagnostics, etc. The DHV11 and DHU11 differ > in hardware echo, output FIFO, a fix for the infamous DH11 input silo level > bug, etc. > > Noel > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 88, Issue 30 > ************************************** From travispierce70 at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 15:48:08 2022 From: travispierce70 at gmail.com (Travis Pierce) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 14:48:08 -0700 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was able to download it from here. https://www.canon-europe.com/support/products/document-scanners/digital-microfilm/ms300ii.html?type=download&softwaredetailid=tcm:13-1364408&os=all&language=en On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 1:37 PM Jim Carpenter via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:02 PM Jason T via cctalk > wrote: > > By any chance, does someone out there have this driver? The filename > > in question is "300350DRIT_V11.exe". You can google that name and end > > up either back at Canon's site or in Malware Hell ("just download this > > Chrome plugin to get your driver!"). > > How about http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350INF.exe > ? > > Jim > From jim at deitygraveyard.com Sun Jan 30 15:52:45 2022 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 16:52:45 -0500 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 4:42 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > How about http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350INF.exe ? > > > > Nevermind. Too small. Just the INF files. Sorry. :( > > Just manually edit that URL with the desired filename: > > https://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350DRIT_V11.exe > > Directory of C:\tmp > 11/21/2005 03:20 AM 7,200,768 300350DRIT_V11.exe > > That's a self-extracting ZIP file. You can rename it to > 300350DRIT_V11.zip and extract the files that way, I did that! I got no response, not even a 404. I even still have the browser tab open. But you are right. It works fine now. Jim From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 15:56:32 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 13:56:32 -0800 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 11:43 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > From the books, the kmc11 had an "lsi11 on board", 1k of 16 bit ram, 1k > of 8 bit data memory a 300ns cycle time, 16 bit microprossor with a 16 > bit micro-instruction bus and 8 bit data path. This is according to the > 1980 Terminal and Communications handbook, so it's a few years after the > 1976 timeframe of Sha Tin. > > Now the original LSI11 processor was 4 main chips, an EIS/FIS chip (or > the CIS lite chip or the weird 1k*20 bit micro-ram board which I have > somewhere). The DCT11 was a single chip lsi11 that had an 8 or 16 bit > outside bus and a 16 bit internal structure and ran pdp11 instructions. > So the KMC11 probably had the DCT11 chip. > > The LSI11 chipset was around in 1975, so it makes sense that DEC could > use it. The SBC11/21 came out in 1981 but the chip was probably avail > internally by 1980 so I'm guessing that the KMC11 and the COMM-IO-DP was > using the DCT11. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/MP01118_KMC11B_EngrDrws.pdf KMC11-B Field Maintenance Print Set The KMC11-B used a custom bit-slice processor implementation. (3x) 93S16 4-bit counters for a 12-bit program counter (2x) 74S181 4-bit ALUs for an 8-bit ALU (2x) 74S189 16x4 RAM for 16 8-bit working registers From doyle at cox.net Sun Jan 30 16:20:52 2022 From: doyle at cox.net (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 15:20:52 -0700 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: References: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/2022 2:56 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 11:43 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> >> From the books, the kmc11 had an "lsi11 on board", 1k of 16 bit ram, 1k >> of 8 bit data memory a 300ns cycle time, 16 bit microprossor with a 16 >> bit micro-instruction bus and 8 bit data path. This is according to the >> 1980 Terminal and Communications handbook, so it's a few years after the >> 1976 timeframe of Sha Tin. >> >> Now the original LSI11 processor was 4 main chips, an EIS/FIS chip (or >> the CIS lite chip or the weird 1k*20 bit micro-ram board which I have >> somewhere). The DCT11 was a single chip lsi11 that had an 8 or 16 bit >> outside bus and a 16 bit internal structure and ran pdp11 instructions. >> So the KMC11 probably had the DCT11 chip. >> >> The LSI11 chipset was around in 1975, so it makes sense that DEC could >> use it. The SBC11/21 came out in 1981 but the chip was probably avail >> internally by 1980 so I'm guessing that the KMC11 and the COMM-IO-DP was >> using the DCT11. >> > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/MP01118_KMC11B_EngrDrws.pdf > KMC11-B Field Maintenance Print Set > > The KMC11-B used a custom bit-slice processor implementation. > (3x) 93S16 4-bit counters for a 12-bit program counter > (2x) 74S181 4-bit ALUs for an 8-bit ALU > (2x) 74S189 16x4 RAM for 16 8-bit working registers If anybody has any schematics for the KMC11 (not the B version), I'd love to get a copy of them. The KMC11 and the KMC11-B are relatively incompatible with each other. The KMC11-B has 4x more data memory, has 4x more microcode memory, and loads microcode in a completely different way. I have a KMC11 implementation in my KS10 FPGA, but it's implementation is based on guesses and reverse engineering the diagnostics. Thanks in advance. Rob Doyle. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 21:18:58 2022 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 21:18:58 -0600 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:48 PM Travis Pierce via cctalk wrote: > > I was able to download it from here. > https://www.canon-europe.com/support/products/document-scanners/digital-microfilm/ms300ii.html?type=download&softwaredetailid=tcm:13-1364408&os=all&language=en That is the package for the MF300-II, the USB one. However! I was able to find the regular 300 on that site as well. The Euro site has "mux____.zip" files rather than the executable driver, but the one there looks correct and also turned out to be a little newer (v1.2 vs v1.1). Thanks for the lead! -jt From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 21:21:31 2022 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 21:21:31 -0600 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:42 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Just manually edit that URL with the desired filename: > > https://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350DRIT_V11.exe That's it! I didn't think to substitute the filename I was after into the URL for the other models' drivers. Looks like a linking mistake on Canon's part. I believe I have two versions of the correct driver now. Thank you Glen! Re: Linux and Sane, that's a great question as well. I had success with xsane with some older scanners that were otherwise long out of support. I'll check it out. Thanks all jt From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 30 21:39:33 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 22:39:33 -0500 Subject: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/30/22 22:21, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:42 PM Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: >> Just manually edit that URL with the desired filename: >> >> https://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350DRIT_V11.exe > > That's it! I didn't think to substitute the filename I was after into > the URL for the other models' drivers. Looks like a linking mistake > on Canon's part. I believe I have two versions of the correct driver > now. Thank you Glen! > > Re: Linux and Sane, that's a great question as well. I had success > with xsane with some older scanners that were otherwise long out of > support. I'll check it out. > > Thanks all > I use xsane for all my scanning. Started using it for an HP SCSI Scanner the University I used to work at dumped because of a lack of support from HP on any Windows versions. Still use it today. bill From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 03:55:53 2022 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 03:55:53 -0600 Subject: MG10 parts Message-ID: While moving some things around I found the following: 7 M8588 6 M8591 6 M8592 4 M8593 14 M8594 All appear to be NOS. I also found : G103 G222 G223 M911 Which I did not count, and they seem to be memory related, but I haven't checked to see which memory they are from. If you have any interest please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 08:23:25 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 09:23:25 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7CC4F72A-EC57-462A-93EE-3954971E09C5@comcast.net> > On Jan 30, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > ... > From what I can see, the the kmc11 was an M8204 single board which is different from the 8200 used in the dmc11. I had a DMC11 somewhere. > > From the books, the kmc11 had an "lsi11 on board", 1k of 16 bit ram, 1k of 8 bit data memory a 300ns cycle time, 16 bit microprossor with a 16 bit micro-instruction bus and 8 bit data path. This is according to the 1980 Terminal and Communications handbook, so it's a few years after the 1976 timeframe of Sha Tin. A KMC-11 has no resemblance whatsoever to an LSI-11 or any other PDP-11 processor. It's a custom microcontroller designed to be a coprocessor on the Unibus. The DMC-11 processor card is not quite the same thing as a KMC-11; its firmware is in ROM rather than RAM, for one thing. I don't know if there are any subtle instruction set differences. Certainly the architecture is at least mostly the same; this can be seen from the fact that RSTS at startup probes various internal state of the DMC-11 by making it execute instructions, and those instructions can be readily understood by reading the KMC-11 manual. It looks like the DMC-11 had a 1k program ROM, the KMC-11/B a 4k RAM, and the DMR/DMP microprocessor seems to be 6k ROM (the drawings are a bit confusing). A consequence of the tiny program memory in the DMC was that the high speed version had a couple of limitations and bugs, described in the DMC-11 microprocessor manual. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 08:28:33 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 09:28:33 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <79185534-2127-4C0E-90C9-42484F5E05C2@forecast.name> References: <20220130142646.5614818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <46c226df-4190-1fa7-bf50-271db9e4a3c9@alembic.crystel.com> <79185534-2127-4C0E-90C9-42484F5E05C2@forecast.name> Message-ID: <730575D4-8214-451A-A0C5-3794BAD3EFFC@comcast.net> > On Jan 30, 2022, at 4:44 PM, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Is it possible that the DMX11 was a CSS product? Clearly it is; the Option/Module list (1983 edition, from Bitsavers) says so. It shows the controller and three different 64 port line units, for different signal specs ("differential" presumably RS-422, "EIA" presumably RS-232, and 20 mA current loop). paul From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Jan 31 08:35:46 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 08:35:46 -0600 Subject: MG10 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1295c6d7-988d-1a19-8a63-adfe431b014d@12bitsbest.com> I added descriptions. On 1/31/2022 3:55 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > While moving some things around I found the following: > > 7 M8588 Parity Check > 6 M8591 Address Receivers > 6 M8592 Port Address Interface > 4 M8593 MG10 Data Registers > 14 M8594 MG10 Data Transceivers > > All appear to be NOS. > > I also found : > G103 Memory Levels & Gates > G222 Memory Selector > G223 Read/Write Drivers PDP-15 > M911 Memory Bus CP Terminator > > Which I did not count, and they seem to be memory related, but I > haven't checked to see which memory they are from. If you have any interest > please contact me off list. > > Thanks, Paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 31 10:04:04 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:04:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? Message-ID: <20220131160404.9E7A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bob Smith > the original UART was designed by DEC, Vince Bastiani was the project > lead and designer, Gordon Bell was behind the project, and it may have > been his idea. "Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design" covers this, in a footnote on pg. 73. I seem to recall reading that Ken Olsen was involved in doing early modem work (presumably on Whirlwind), but maybe my memory is failing, and it was someone else (like Bell, or someone). Too busy to research it at the moment... Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 10:34:37 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:34:37 -0500 Subject: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products? In-Reply-To: <20220131160404.9E7A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220131160404.9E7A418C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <61A54856-61F1-4733-9F8E-E20F2AD81ED4@comcast.net> > On Jan 31, 2022, at 11:04 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Bob Smith > >> the original UART was designed by DEC, Vince Bastiani was the project >> lead and designer, Gordon Bell was behind the project, and it may have >> been his idea. > > "Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design" covers this, in > a footnote on pg. 73. > > I seem to recall reading that Ken Olsen was involved in doing early modem > work (presumably on Whirlwind), but maybe my memory is failing, and it was > someone else (like Bell, or someone). Too busy to research it at the moment... Don't know about that. But I do know that Ken Olsen was involved in magnetic logic -- it's his thesis subject -- which is at the basis of core rope ROM memory design. There's a reference to his work in one of the 1960s era papers about core rope memory. (It names "Olsen" without first name but I assume there weren't two Olsens at that lab doing that work.) paul From tom94022 at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 13:01:21 2022 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:01:21 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices Message-ID: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> There is a discussion of the origin of the term "partition" in storage devices such as HDDs at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22p artition%22_originate? It seems clear it was used in memory well before HDDs but when it got started there is unclear. * IBM PC DOS v2 was an early user in 1983 with FDISK and its first PC support of HDDs * UNIX, Apple OS's and IBM mainframe all seem to come later. Partitioning as a "slice" probably predates IBM PC DOS v2 Would appreciate some recollections about DEC usage, other minicomputers and the BUNCH. You can either post directly to Wikipedia or let me know; links to references would greatly be appreciated Tom From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 13:28:39 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:28:39 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <24ED964B-7A40-4CA8-B9A3-D530CE8DAB1F@comcast.net> > On Jan 31, 2022, at 2:01 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > There is a discussion of the origin of the term "partition" in storage > devices such as HDDs at: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22p > artition%22_originate? > > It seems clear it was used in memory well before HDDs but when it got > started there is unclear. > * IBM PC DOS v2 was an early user in 1983 with FDISK and its first PC > support of HDDs > * UNIX, Apple OS's and IBM mainframe all seem to come later. > > Partitioning as a "slice" probably predates IBM PC DOS v2 > > Would appreciate some recollections about DEC usage, other minicomputers and > the BUNCH. > > You can either post directly to Wikipedia or let me know; links to > references would greatly be appreciated > > Tom RSX has partitions; the term goes back at least as far as RSX-11/D. It may well go back to older versions such as RSX-15, but I haven't looked. OS/360 came in three flavors, PCP, MFT, and MVT. The OS/360 article describes MFT as having partitions selected at sysgen time (the acronym stands for "multiprogramming with a fixed number of tasks, with the concurrent tasks assigned across the available partitions). Both of these are memory partitions. The only OS I can think of predating the ones you mentioned is RT-11, the later versions (V2 did not have them). When did Unix first get partitions? paul From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jan 31 13:38:08 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 12:38:08 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 12:01 PM Tom Gardner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There is a discussion of the origin of the term "partition" in storage > devices such as HDDs at: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22p > artition%22_originate > > ? > > It seems clear it was used in memory well before HDDs but when it got > started there is unclear. > * IBM PC DOS v2 was an early user in 1983 with FDISK and its first PC > support of HDDs > * UNIX, Apple OS's and IBM mainframe all seem to come later. > SunOS had partitions from the start (1982). These may have been carried over from the Ubisoft port, but I've not been able to confirm that. If so, they date a little earlier. HP/UX had them in about this same time period, but my sources for that are not very good. Warner > Partitioning as a "slice" probably predates IBM PC DOS v2 > > Would appreciate some recollections about DEC usage, other minicomputers > and > the BUNCH. > > You can either post directly to Wikipedia or let me know; links to > references would greatly be appreciated > > Tom > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 19:41:56 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:41:56 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> Message-ID: OS/8 partitioned RK02 disk packs. On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 2:38 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 12:01 PM Tom Gardner via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > There is a discussion of the origin of the term "partition" in storage > > devices such as HDDs at: > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22p > > artition%22_originate > > < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22partition%22_originate > > > > ? > > > > It seems clear it was used in memory well before HDDs but when it got > > started there is unclear. > > * IBM PC DOS v2 was an early user in 1983 with FDISK and its first PC > > support of HDDs > > * UNIX, Apple OS's and IBM mainframe all seem to come later. > > > > SunOS had partitions from the start (1982). These may have been carried > over > from the Ubisoft port, but I've not been able to confirm that. If so, they > date a little > earlier. HP/UX had them in about this same time period, but my sources for > that > are not very good. > > Warner > > > > Partitioning as a "slice" probably predates IBM PC DOS v2 > > > > Would appreciate some recollections about DEC usage, other minicomputers > > and > > the BUNCH. > > > > You can either post directly to Wikipedia or let me know; links to > > references would greatly be appreciated > > > > Tom > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 31 14:33:38 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 12:33:38 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6fd0c896-252c-9d83-5283-8d9378a7dae1@sydex.com> The IBM 1620 Monitor IID, partitioned the 1311 into various areas. I can probably find other old examples. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jan 31 14:39:36 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 12:39:36 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <24ED964B-7A40-4CA8-B9A3-D530CE8DAB1F@comcast.net> References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> <24ED964B-7A40-4CA8-B9A3-D530CE8DAB1F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Both of these are memory partitions. The only OS I can think of predating the ones you mentioned is RT-11, the later versions (V2 did not have them). When did Unix first get partitions? > > paul Partitions are pretty important in RT-11 v5.x, after all, there is the partition size limit, so you have to have multiple partitions for almost any HD, except very small ones. Let?s not forget hardware enforced partitioning, the WEQSD/04 ESDI controller comes to mind. It see?s a single large ESDI HD as a single disk, but you can partition it on the controller, and the OS sees each partition as a separate physical disk. I seem to remember some MFM controllers that made the MFM drive appear to be RL01/RL02 or RK05 packs. Zane From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Jan 31 14:57:12 2022 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:57:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> <24ED964B-7A40-4CA8-B9A3-D530CE8DAB1F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1503118585.650266.1643662632535@email.ionos.com> Partitioning on micros goes back to at least 1979 with CP/M 2.2. See the CP/M 2.2 alteration guide on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/digitalResearch/cpm/2.2/CPM_2.2_Alteration_Guide_1979.pdf Will From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Jan 31 15:04:10 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 15:04:10 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> Message-ID: OS/8 Partitioned the RK05 into 2 (or 4 for the RK05F) partitions due to the limitations of 12 bit addressing in the 70's. On 1/31/2022 7:41 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > OS/8 partitioned RK02 disk packs. > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 2:38 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 12:01 PM Tom Gardner via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> There is a discussion of the origin of the term "partition" in storage >>> devices such as HDDs at: >>> >>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22p >>> artition%22_originate >>> < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22partition%22_originate >>> ? >>> >>> It seems clear it was used in memory well before HDDs but when it got >>> started there is unclear. >>> * IBM PC DOS v2 was an early user in 1983 with FDISK and its first PC >>> support of HDDs >>> * UNIX, Apple OS's and IBM mainframe all seem to come later. >>> >> SunOS had partitions from the start (1982). These may have been carried >> over >> from the Ubisoft port, but I've not been able to confirm that. If so, they >> date a little >> earlier. HP/UX had them in about this same time period, but my sources for >> that >> are not very good. >> >> Warner >> >> >>> Partitioning as a "slice" probably predates IBM PC DOS v2 >>> >>> Would appreciate some recollections about DEC usage, other minicomputers >>> and >>> the BUNCH. >>> >>> You can either post directly to Wikipedia or let me know; links to >>> references would greatly be appreciated >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Jan 31 15:22:36 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 15:22:36 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5ccf36b3-b515-7318-7046-6bc3b56558cc@12bitsbest.com> The RK02/RK03 (Diablo predecessor to the DEC RK05) were introduced in 1972 so partitioning goes back that far at least. My guess is it goes back even further. On 1/31/2022 7:41 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > OS/8 partitioned RK02 disk packs. > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 2:38 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 12:01 PM Tom Gardner via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> There is a discussion of the origin of the term "partition" in storage >>> devices such as HDDs at: >>> >>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22p >>> artition%22_originate >>> < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Disk_partitioning#Where_did_the_term_%22partition%22_originate >>> ? >>> >>> It seems clear it was used in memory well before HDDs but when it got >>> started there is unclear. >>> * IBM PC DOS v2 was an early user in 1983 with FDISK and its first PC >>> support of HDDs >>> * UNIX, Apple OS's and IBM mainframe all seem to come later. >>> >> SunOS had partitions from the start (1982). These may have been carried >> over >> from the Ubisoft port, but I've not been able to confirm that. If so, they >> date a little >> earlier. HP/UX had them in about this same time period, but my sources for >> that >> are not very good. >> >> Warner >> >> >>> Partitioning as a "slice" probably predates IBM PC DOS v2 >>> >>> Would appreciate some recollections about DEC usage, other minicomputers >>> and >>> the BUNCH. >>> >>> You can either post directly to Wikipedia or let me know; links to >>> references would greatly be appreciated >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> From tom94022 at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 15:35:36 2022 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 13:35:36 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> <24ED964B-7A40-4CA8-B9A3-D530CE8DAB1F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <009201d816ea$7ce74800$76b5d800$@comcast.net> FWIW a Google search: "partition site:http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11" returns no relevant hits prior to 1983 I suspect that ESDI and MFM controllers emulating RL/RK disks are also later than 1983 Tom -----Original Message----- From: Zane Healy [mailto:healyzh at avanthar.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2022 12:40 PM To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: t.gardner at computer.org; Tom Gardner Subject: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices On Jan 31, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Both of these are memory partitions. The only OS I can think of predating the ones you mentioned is RT-11, the later versions (V2 did not have them). When did Unix first get partitions? > > paul Partitions are pretty important in RT-11 v5.x, after all, there is the partition size limit, so you have to have multiple partitions for almost any HD, except very small ones. Let?s not forget hardware enforced partitioning, the WEQSD/04 ESDI controller comes to mind. It see?s a single large ESDI HD as a single disk, but you can partition it on the controller, and the OS sees each partition as a separate physical disk. I seem to remember some MFM controllers that made the MFM drive appear to be RL01/RL02 or RK05 packs. Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 31 15:43:52 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:43:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices Message-ID: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > When did Unix first get partitions? 'Partitions' the mechanism, or partitions the term for the mechanism? The former appeared about V5: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/sys/dmr/rp.c when an RP03 was added; pre-V7, UNIX filesystems were limited to 2^16 blocks, so the 406*10*20 blocks of an RP03 had to be split up into partitions (called 'sections' or 'pseudo-disks' in the documentation) to make all of it useable. The latter? No idea... Partitions may have appeared in DOS/Windows for much the same reason; with 32 KB clusters, FAT16 filesystems were limited to 2GB. I distinctly recall having to use partitions when I bought a 13GB hard drive for my Windows 95 machine (FAT32 only came in with Windows 95 OSR2). Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 31 16:21:19 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:21:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Partitions may have appeared in DOS/Windows for much the same reason; with 32 > KB clusters, FAT16 filesystems were limited to 2GB. I distinctly recall > having to use partitions when I bought a 13GB hard drive for my Windows 95 > machine (FAT32 only came in with Windows 95 OSR2). PC-DOS/MS-DOS early partitioning When PC-DOS/MS-DOS started to support hard drives (XT/5160, March 8,1983), with PC/MS-DOS 2.00, the limit was 32MB. NOT 2GB. That limit called for breaking up drives as small as 40MB into multiple partitions. That limit lasted until MS-DOS 3.31 / PC-DOS 4.00 After that, the limit was bumped up to 2GB. (Probably would have been 4GB if they had used an UNSIGNED 32 bit number, and given up the option of having negative file and drive sizes) The XT/5160 shipped with a 10MB drive, but some people even split that up. ("we're going to share the drive between all of us, so there will be a partition for DOS and programs, and each person will get a personal partition for your data." The XT/5160 used a rebranded Xebec hard disk controller, that included support for 2 drives, of 5?, 10, 16, and 26MB. It was set for 10MB, but the other sizes could be accessed by adding jumpers to solder pads on the board. Other sizes could be done with software kludges. FDISK.COM, for partitioning, was included in PC-DOS 2.00 . The 5160 shipped with the hard disk already formatted. However low level format, to redo it, or for a third party drive, required "Advanced Diagnostics", or third party solutions. "Advanced Diagnostics" was part of the "Hardware Maintenance And Service" and was on a 160K floppy AND on a cassette! (for machines without floppy) The regular "Diagnostics" that shipped with the machine (both 5150 and 5160) did NOT have hard disk low level format. Third party controllers usually came with a low-level format utility, or provision in the hard disk controller's ROM at C800h -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jan 31 16:24:55 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 15:24:55 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/31/22 2:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Partitions may have appeared in DOS/Windows for much the same reason; > with 32 KB clusters, FAT16 filesystems were limited to 2GB. I think the same type of problem happened with the really old FAT-12 to FAT-16 conversion. Wasn't FAT-12 limited to something near 31 MB? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tom94022 at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 16:42:38 2022 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:42:38 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices Message-ID: <00a401d816f3$da6cd860$8f468920$@comcast.net> A somewhat broader search found the 1984 RT-11 System Release Notes with the following: 1.4.2.4 Logical Disk Subsetting Handler (LD) - The logical disk subsetting handler lets you define logical disks, which are subsets of physical disks. You define logical disks by assigning a logical disk unit number to a file on a physical disk. You can then use the logical disk as though it were a physical disk. AA-5286F-TC-T1_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Jul84.pdf (bitsavers.org) p15/102 Suggests DEC had not yet adopted the term ?partition? for a segment of a disk Tom -----Original Message----- From: Tom Gardner [mailto:tom94022 at comcast.net] FWIW a Google search: "partition site:http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11" returns no relevant hits prior to 1983 I suspect that ESDI and MFM controllers emulating RL/RK disks are also later than 1983 Tom -----Original Message----- From: Zane Healy [ mailto:healyzh at avanthar.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2022 12:40 PM To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: t.gardner at computer.org; Tom Gardner Subject: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices On Jan 31, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Both of these are memory partitions. The only OS I can think of predating the ones you mentioned is RT-11, the later versions (V2 did not have them). When did Unix first get partitions? > > paul Partitions are pretty important in RT-11 v5.x, after all, there is the partition size limit, so you have to have multiple partitions for almost any HD, except very small ones. Let?s not forget hardware enforced partitioning, the WEQSD/04 ESDI controller comes to mind. It see?s a single large ESDI HD as a single disk, but you can partition it on the controller, and the OS sees each partition as a separate physical disk. I seem to remember some MFM controllers that made the MFM drive appear to be RL01/RL02 or RK05 packs. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 31 16:46:26 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:46:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I think the same type of problem happened with the really old FAT-12 to > FAT-16 conversion. > Wasn't FAT-12 limited to something near 31 MB? 32 MebiBytes - 1 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 31 16:56:46 2022 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 14:56:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I think the same type of problem happened with the really old FAT-12 to >> FAT-16 conversion. >> Wasn't FAT-12 limited to something near 31 MB? > > 32 MebiBytes - 1 > *chases Fred out of the house with a broom, screaming incoherently about SI units* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 31 17:10:53 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 15:10:53 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <009201d816ea$7ce74800$76b5d800$@comcast.net> References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> <24ED964B-7A40-4CA8-B9A3-D530CE8DAB1F@comcast.net> <009201d816ea$7ce74800$76b5d800$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00ed1354-a0de-b0c6-c8fd-6bef144e1b5c@sydex.com> Note also, that tapes can be partitioned per ANSI T10. ---Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 31 17:19:35 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 15:19:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: >> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> I think the same type of problem happened with the really old FAT-12 to >>> FAT-16 conversion. >>> Wasn't FAT-12 limited to something near 31 MB? > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> 32 MebiBytes - 1 On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, geneb wrote: > *chases Fred out of the house with a broom, screaming incoherently about SI > units* Sorry that I was in the house with a broom, screaming incoherently about SI units. I think that the correct number is 33,554,432 bytes File sizes were stored as the last 4 bytes of each DIRectory entry, with a signed 32 bit number. So, a file could be from -2,147,483,648 to 2,147,483,647 Unfortunately, they never successfully finished the implementation, so copying a negative size file to the drive did not increase the free space. Since they didn't make THAT work, perhaps they should have used an UNSIGNED 32 bit number, to permit files up to 4,294,967,295 The 5160/XT original drive was 306 cylinders, with 4 heads, and 17 sectors per track for 10,653,696 for 10.653696 "MegaBytes" 1,000,000 10^6 or 10.404 Marketing "MegaBytes" 1,024,000 10^3 * 2^10 or 10.16015625 MebiBytes 2^20 Seagate, and a few others, were smart enough to call that 10MB, so that people forgave them a few bad tracks, and even bragged how great the drive was because it was even more than the ad had called it! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 17:28:08 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:28:08 -0400 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2022-01-31 18:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> Partitions may have appeared in DOS/Windows for much the same reason; >> with 32 >> KB clusters, FAT16 filesystems were limited to 2GB. I distinctly recall >> having to use partitions when I bought a 13GB hard drive for my >> Windows 95 >> machine (FAT32 only came in with Windows 95 OSR2). > > PC-DOS/MS-DOS early partitioning > > When PC-DOS/MS-DOS started to support hard drives (XT/5160, March > 8,1983), with PC/MS-DOS 2.00, the limit was 32MB.? NOT 2GB. > That limit called for breaking up drives as small as 40MB into > multiple partitions. > That limit lasted until MS-DOS 3.31 / PC-DOS 4.00? After that, the > limit was bumped up to 2GB.? (Probably would have been 4GB if they had > used an UNSIGNED 32 bit number, and given up the option of having > negative file and drive sizes) > > The XT/5160 shipped with a 10MB drive, but some people even split that > up. ("we're going to share the drive between all of us, so there will > be a partition for DOS and programs, and each person will get a > personal partition for your data." > > The XT/5160 used a rebranded Xebec hard disk controller, that included > support for 2 drives, of 5?, 10, 16, and 26MB.? It was set for 10MB, > but the other sizes could be accessed by adding jumpers to solder pads > on the board.? Other sizes could be done with software kludges. > > FDISK.COM, for partitioning, was included in PC-DOS 2.00 . > > The 5160 shipped with the hard disk already formatted. However low > level format, to redo it, or for a third party drive, required > "Advanced Diagnostics", or third party solutions. > "Advanced Diagnostics" was part of the "Hardware Maintenance And > Service" and was on a 160K floppy AND on a cassette! (for machines > without floppy) > The regular "Diagnostics" that shipped with the machine (both 5150 and > 5160) did NOT have hard disk low level format. > > Third party controllers usually came with a low-level format utility, > or provision in the hard disk controller's ROM at C800h > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com The other thing you could do is alter the hard disk bios to support the disk you wanted to use, many years ago I did that for a gentleman that had a few 42GB disks, and he gave me one of the drives for my efforts.? I also recall patching AT BIOS to support drive that didn't match the geometry of drives in the drive table. Paul. From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jan 31 18:30:03 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:30:03 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:43 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > When did Unix first get partitions? > > 'Partitions' the mechanism, or partitions the term for the mechanism? > > The former appeared about V5: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/sys/dmr/rp.c > > when an RP03 was added; pre-V7, UNIX filesystems were limited to 2^16 > blocks, > so the 406*10*20 blocks of an RP03 had to be split up into partitions > (called > 'sections' or 'pseudo-disks' in the documentation) to make all of it > useable. > > The latter? No idea... > SunOS 1.0 had on disk tables that described the partitions in 1982. These were dynamic per disk as opposed to the hardwired in the os drivers that V5 and later had. I've not had luck with finding people to recall where this feature came from... Partitions may have appeared in DOS/Windows for much the same reason; with > 32 > KB clusters, FAT16 filesystems were limited to 2GB. I distinctly recall > having to use partitions when I bought a 13GB hard drive for my Windows 95 > machine (FAT32 only came in with Windows 95 OSR2). > There were similar tables on DEC Rainbow disks which predated the MS DOS port to the platform and was a different format. This was also 1981 or 1982. 3rd party disks had their own tables. I've not done the deep dive to date it more specifically. Other CP/M raw disks from this era have similar tables on them, but I have only what I've puzzled out, no docs. Warner > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 31 18:35:02 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:35:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices Message-ID: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tom Gardner > You define logical disks by assigning a logical disk unit number to a > file on a physical disk. You can then use the logical disk as though it > were a physical disk. To me, 'partition' implies a contiguous are of the disk; "a file" to me implies that it might not be contiguous? Or are files contiguous in the RT-11 filesystem? (I know there were filesystems which supported contiguous files.) This reminds me of the swapping/paging area in Windows 95/98 (maybe other versions too), which was kept in a file, and therefore might be scattered all over the physical disk. (Norton disk optimizer would coalesce the swap/paging area to a contiguous area of the disk.) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 18:51:28 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:51:28 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 31, 2022, at 7:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Tom Gardner > >> You define logical disks by assigning a logical disk unit number to a >> file on a physical disk. You can then use the logical disk as though it >> were a physical disk. > > To me, 'partition' implies a contiguous are of the disk; "a file" to me > implies that it might not be contiguous? Or are files contiguous in the RT-11 > filesystem? (I know there were filesystems which supported contiguous files.) Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files. That makes for a very small and very fast file system. The only other example I know of that does this is the PLATO file system. As for partition vs. file, the two differences I see are: (1) layering: the partition is below the file system. (2) partitions are originally entirely static (set at creation and never changed) and even later on changed only rarely and typically with substantial technical difficulty. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 31 19:13:22 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 17:13:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just > support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files. That > makes for a very small and very fast file system. > > The only other example I know of that does this is the PLATO file system. The UCSD P-System had contiguous files. If small files had been deleted, so that space was fragmented, you had to run a "CRUNCH" program to defragment it. Directory entries had the starting location and length. > As for partition vs. file, the two differences I see are: (1) layering: the partition is below the file system. (2) partitions are originally entirely static (set at creation and never changed) and even later on changed only rarely and typically with substantial technical difficulty. > > paul > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2245 Carquinez Avenue (510) 234-3397 ElCerrito, CA 94530 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 19:19:49 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 20:19:49 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 1/31/22 20:13, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just >> support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files.? That >> makes for a very small and very fast file system. >> >> The only other example I know of that does this is the PLATO file system. > > The UCSD P-System had contiguous files.? If small files had been > deleted, so that space was fragmented, you had to run a "CRUNCH" program > to defragment it.?? Directory entries had the starting location and length. That was a minor inconvenience. The bigger problem was that on a "CRUNCHed" disk you could only open one file for writing. Attempt to open a second returns an error. bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 31 20:13:08 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:13:08 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2022-01-31 6:19 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/31/22 20:13, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just >>> support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files.? That >>> makes for a very small and very fast file system. >>> >>> The only other example I know of that does this is the PLATO file >>> system. >> >> The UCSD P-System had contiguous files.? If small files had been >> deleted, so that space was fragmented, you had to run a "CRUNCH" >> program to defragment it.?? Directory entries had the starting >> location and length. > > That was a minor inconvenience.? The bigger problem was that on a > "CRUNCHed" disk you could only open one file for writing. Attempt to > open a second returns an error. > > bill > How are text files handled the above systems? The editor writes to a temp file, then deletes the old file, and renames the temp file? Ben. From macro at orcam.me.uk Mon Jan 31 22:53:41 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 04:53:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > File sizes were stored as the last 4 bytes of each DIRectory entry, with a > signed 32 bit number. So, a file could be from > -2,147,483,648 to 2,147,483,647 > Unfortunately, they never successfully finished the implementation, so copying > a negative size file to the drive did not increase the free space. Since they > didn't make THAT work, perhaps they should have used an UNSIGNED 32 bit > number, to permit files up to 4,294,967,295 Consider the file seek operation however: with the file size limited to the 31-bit positive range of the signed 32-bit data type you can move the file offset backwards and forwards through the entire range with a single operation using the same data type. It would not be possible if the data type was unsigned and all the 32 bits used for the file size. Maciej From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 21:25:15 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:25:15 -0600 Subject: Pdp 8 panel parts for trade Message-ID: Anyone got any 8i switch or panel parts they Wana trade for any of these? Got 6 3 pin spring loaded rockers appear to test good might need some deoxot not sure came off the 8e below 8 of the 8e m rocker paddles orange and redish orange https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Eprlv8d3TmSPFJ3rCHIJTFkQOyAZesCM/view?usp=drivesdk Some are missing the plastic pivot dimples 8m with out it's switches The rotory it's bit weird but possibly usable. Dunno enough about them. It's center hole is ovaled a bit might gotten bashed. Might have some usefull bits still https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EpAag1J5r6RAR8ln_fprrdCEiOnJx5kq I've got some other bits that might be usefull as well from the 8i to anyone I'm looking for 5 more rockers with or with out the 8i paddles Or some 8i paddles I've got 5 brown and 10 white ones that I wanted to find when I rescued my poor 8i outs the mud Or any other parts that might be usefull From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 31 22:11:08 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 23:11:08 -0500 Subject: Pdp 8 panel parts for trade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d1f5bbc-0bed-9e3e-0111-f1736fec8a88@alembic.crystel.com> > I'm looking for 5 more rockers with or with out the 8i paddles Well, I'm selling my 8/I panel but I do have a spare 8/L panel that has most of the switches. Are they the same basic switch? > Or some 8i paddles I've got 5 brown and 10 white ones that I wanted to find > when I rescued my poor 8i outs the mud Some of my 8/L switch paddles were broken so I 3D printed replacements. I found that PLA plastic is far too weak especially on the pivots but if you print them with PETG they WILL work and the pivots can take the load. Have not had one fail and these are the EX/DP/START switches so they are taking a lot of use. C From huw.davies at me.com Mon Jan 31 23:30:18 2022 From: huw.davies at me.com (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:30:18 +1100 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <00a401d816f3$da6cd860$8f468920$@comcast.net> References: <00a401d816f3$da6cd860$8f468920$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <96131D0D-C1B0-4038-9C3B-EBF767EB0E63@me.com> > On 1 Feb 2022, at 09:42, cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > A somewhat broader search found the 1984 RT-11 System Release Notes with the following: > > > > 1.4.2.4 Logical Disk Subsetting Handler (LD) - The logical disk subsetting handler lets you define logical disks, which are subsets of physical disks. You define logical disks by assigning a logical disk unit number to a file on a physical disk. You can then use the logical disk as though it were a physical disk. > > AA-5286F-TC-T1_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Jul84.pdf (bitsavers.org) p15/102 > > > > Suggests DEC had not yet adopted the term ?partition? for a segment of a disk From http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/ultrix-11/2.0/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf it seems that at least one part of Digital used partitions as we now know it in September 1984. I wonder if AT&T Unix Seventh edition also called them partitions? Huw