From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Feb 1 00:19:20 2022 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 07:19:20 +0100 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 02:21:19PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > That limit lasted until MS-DOS 3.31 / PC-DOS 4.00 After that, the limit > was bumped up to 2GB. (Probably would have been 4GB if they had used an > UNSIGNED 32 bit number, and given up the option of having negative file > and drive sizes) Fun factoid: that 2GiB limit on *filesystem* size is actually due to the use of an signed *eight* bit field, namely the number of sectors in a cluster. This limits clusters to 64 sectors, or 32kiB. FAT16 supports a shade under 2**16 clusters, resulting in that 2GiB limit. FAT's *file* size limitation is indeed due to a 32 bit field. The ISO 9660 standard offers an "interesting" solution to that, namely having multiple directory entries for the same filename. So if you want to store files larger than 4GiB on a CD-ROM, the filesystem won't hold you back. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Feb 1 00:38:25 2022 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 07:38:25 +0100 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 07:51:28PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: [...] > Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just > support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files. That makes > for a very small and very fast file system. > The only other example I know of that does this is the PLATO file system. The first such one I encountered was Acorn's DFS. "Very small" is relative: the filesystem came on an 16kiB ROM and stole 2,816 precious bytes of RAM for its workspace. When you already only had 28,160 bytes free after the OS had taken its fill, that's quite an extra imposition. Other filesystems like this are anything which is expected to be generated from a master image and written out linearly to mostly read-only storage, such as ISO 9660, UDF, embedded systems, "booter" games and demos, etc. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 00:48:47 2022 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 22:48:47 -0800 Subject: HP 2100S Power Supply Disassembly Tips Message-ID: Hey all -- I've had this HP 2100S mini sitting on the bench for a bit, waiting, and I wanted to go through the power supply and test/reform the capacitors this past weekend. The processor service docs cover getting the supply out (which is slightly cumbersome) and I have that step done. But neither the processor docs nor the power supply service docs seem to cover how one disassembles the supply itself. (Has a really thorough guide to how the thing works though, that I'm hoping I won't actually have to use anytime soon.) There are a lot of parts in this unit, and I'm not seeing a method to the madness. The capacitors are fairly easy to *get to* but actually removing them for testing / replacement seems to be another matter entirely. Anyone out there done this before and have any advice? Thanks! - Josh From rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 1 03:14:47 2022 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:14:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> This reminds me of the swapping/paging area in Windows 95/98 (maybe other versions too), which was kept in a file, and therefore might be scattered all over the physical disk. (Norton disk optimizer would coalesce the swap/paging area to a contiguous area of the disk.) Noel Windows still uses a pagefile, even today, on NT systems. There's several advantages to doing it that way, including balancing wear on a disk (especially today, with SSDs), as a dedicated swap partition could put undue wear on certain areas of disk. It's also much easier to dynamically allocate more (or less) swap space as is needed, which was very important in the days when RAM was expensive and very limited in quantity. Of course, doing it that way has many disadvantages, not least the fragmentation issue (which was the root cause of much periodic slowdown on Windows machines in the mid 00's), but also the overheads involved with transferring rather scattered and unorganised RAM contents into nice, neat blocks understood by the filesystem. Though i have no numbers to back up my claims, i'm sure the overheads involved in translating RAM contents to a file was much more significant than just dumping the RAM contents into a SWAP partition. Josh Rice From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 04:02:25 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:02:25 +0100 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 at 10:14, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Of course, doing it that way has many disadvantages, not least the > fragmentation issue (which was the root cause of much periodic slowdown > on Windows machines in the mid 00's), but also the overheads involved > with transferring rather scattered and unorganised RAM contents into > nice, neat blocks understood by the filesystem. Though i have no numbers > to back up my claims, i'm sure the overheads involved in translating RAM > contents to a file was much more significant than just dumping the RAM > contents into a SWAP partition. Yeah... there were folk beliefs about how positioning on the disk made a big difference, too. When PartitionMagic came out, it caused me some fun. When I joined _PC Pro_ magazine (at Issue 8) we had a copy of v1 in the cupboard. Its native OS was OS/2 and nobody cared, I'm afraid. I read what it claimed and didn't believe it so I didn't try it. Then v2 arrived. It ran on DOS. Repartitioning a hard disk when it was full of data? Preposterous! Impossible! So I tried it. It worked. I wrote a rave review. It prompted a reader letter. "I think I've spotted your April Fool's piece. A DOS program that looks exactly like a Windows 95 app? Which can repartition a hard disk full of data? Written by someone whose name is an anagram of 'APRIL VENOM'? Do I win anything?" He won a phonecall from me, but he did teach me an anagram of my name I never knew. It led me to run a tip in the mag... At the time, a 1.2 GB hard disk was the most common size (and a Quantum Fireball the fastest model for the money). Format that as a single FAT16 partition and you got super-inefficient 16 kB clusters. (And in 1995 or early 1996, FAT16 was all you got.) With PartitionMagic, you could take 200 MB off the end, make it into a 2nd partition, and *still fit more onto the C: drive* because of far more efficient 8 kB clusters. If you didn't have PQMagic you could partition the disk that way before installing. The only key thing was that C: was less than 1 GB. 0.99 GB was fine. I suggested making a D: drive and putting the swap file on it -- you saved space and reduced fragmentation. One of our favourite small PC builders, Panrix, questioned this. They reckoned that having the swap file on the outer, longer tracks of the drive made it slower, due to slower access times and slower transfer speeds. They were adamant. So I got them to bring in a new, virgin PC with Windows 95A, I benchmarked it with a single big, inefficient C: partition, then I repartitioned it, put the swapfile on the new D: drive, and benchmarked it again. It was the same to 2 decimal places, and the C drive had about 250MB more free space. Panrix apologised and I gained another geek cred point. :-) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 07:20:05 2022 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 08:20:05 -0500 Subject: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up Message-ID: KMC11 - Paul K cited the docs. It was a bit different from DMC CPU board in both cycle time and in the use of ram versus prom. Both boards/products used the 4bit Alu but I don't call that bit slice, as the 2901 is more of a bit slice. KMC and DMC are Harvard architecture based devices, as is the 11/60 CPU. DMC and KMC benefited from the microcode work of Harvey Schlesinger, Bob Rosenbaum, Richie Larry, and I think Clarise joined the team in 77. Can't recall her last name. DMC had (when I left the project and it had been shipping for a year or two) a 300NS cycle time, while the KMC had a 240NS cycle time thanks to the instruction register I had suggested to remi as we were thinking of a RAM based device because PROMS were a royal pain with 2 and 3 code changes a day. This change allowed the machine to begin to access the next instruction as one was executing - there are no interrupts in either board. bob From macro at orcam.me.uk Tue Feb 1 07:50:48 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:50:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > One of our favourite small PC builders, Panrix, questioned this. They > reckoned that having the swap file on the outer, longer tracks of the > drive made it slower, due to slower access times and slower transfer > speeds. They were adamant. With contemporary ATA hard disks (and also SCSI disks) obviously the opposite was the case, due to the ZBR sector mapping scheme. The outer cylinders had the fastest transfer speeds. Verified many times with actual benchmarking of partitions placed at different parts of various disks (only with Linux however). I only ever came across a single very old WDC ATA disk that had a fixed sector count per track/cylinder like a floppy (and also a stepper rather than linear motor for the head assembly, which obviously affected seek characteristics) and consequently whose transfer speed was the same all across the surface. FWIW, Maciej From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 08:20:02 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:20:02 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2022, at 5:02 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I suggested making a D: drive and putting the swap file on it -- you > saved space and reduced fragmentation. > > One of our favourite small PC builders, Panrix, questioned this. They > reckoned that having the swap file on the outer, longer tracks of the > drive made it slower, due to slower access times and slower transfer > speeds. They were adamant. And very obviously wrong -- elementary geometry. It is true that the outer tracks are physically longer. But that doesn't mean transfer rates are slower. Given the older formatting where the count of sectors per track is constant, so is the transfer rate -- the same number of sectors pass the head per revolution, i.e., in constant time, no matter what track you're on. The bits are physically longer, of course. That's why later drives put more sectors per track as you move outward, and that means that the transfer rate on outer tracks is *higher* than for inner tracks. And some storage systems indeed use that knowledge. Incidentally, while constant sector count was the norm for a long time, it wasn't universal; the CDC 6603, in 1964, had "zones" with the sector count changing between zones. Outer zones had more sectors per track. Unlike modern drives, the OS driver had to handle that. paul From kgober at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 08:32:45 2022 From: kgober at gmail.com (Kenneth Gober) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:32:45 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 4:43 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > When did Unix first get partitions? > > 'Partitions' the mechanism, or partitions the term for the mechanism? > > The former appeared about V5: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/sys/dmr/rp.c > > when an RP03 was added; pre-V7, UNIX filesystems were limited to 2^16 > blocks, > so the 406*10*20 blocks of an RP03 had to be split up into partitions > (called > 'sections' or 'pseudo-disks' in the documentation) to make all of it > useable. > > The latter? No idea... > In the Unix V5 rp(4) man page the term "sections" is used. See page 222 of https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Dennis_v5/v5man.pdf In "Setting Up Unix - Sixth Edition" the term "partitions" is used, although the rp(4) man page still used "sections" in V6 and V7. See https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/doc/start/start -ken From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 09:06:31 2022 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:06:31 -0600 Subject: Pdp 8 panel parts for trade In-Reply-To: <4d1f5bbc-0bed-9e3e-0111-f1736fec8a88@alembic.crystel.com> References: <4d1f5bbc-0bed-9e3e-0111-f1736fec8a88@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: yes the same basic switch from what ive observed ive tride 3d printing but i don have access to anything decent print quality wise On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:21 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > I'm looking for 5 more rockers with or with out the 8i paddles > > Well, I'm selling my 8/I panel but I do have a spare 8/L panel that has > most of the switches. Are they the same basic switch? > > > Or some 8i paddles I've got 5 brown and 10 white ones that I wanted to > find > > when I rescued my poor 8i outs the mud > > Some of my 8/L switch paddles were broken so I 3D printed replacements. > I found that PLA plastic is far too weak especially on the pivots but if > you print them with PETG they WILL work and the pivots can take the > load. Have not had one fail and these are the EX/DP/START switches so > they are taking a lot of use. > > C > From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 1 10:02:58 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:02:58 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <96131D0D-C1B0-4038-9C3B-EBF767EB0E63@me.com> References: <00a401d816f3$da6cd860$8f468920$@comcast.net> <96131D0D-C1B0-4038-9C3B-EBF767EB0E63@me.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 1:22 AM Huw Davies via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 1 Feb 2022, at 09:42, cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > A somewhat broader search found the 1984 RT-11 System Release Notes with > the following: > > > > > > > > 1.4.2.4 Logical Disk Subsetting Handler (LD) - The logical disk > subsetting handler lets you define logical disks, which are subsets of > physical disks. You define logical disks by assigning a logical disk unit > number to a file on a physical disk. You can then use the logical disk as > though it were a physical disk. > > > > AA-5286F-TC-T1_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Jul84.pdf (bitsavers.org) < > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.1_Jul84/AA-5286F-TC-T1_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Jul84.pdf> > p15/102 > > > > > > > > Suggests DEC had not yet adopted the term ?partition? for a segment of a > disk > > From > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/ultrix-11/2.0/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf > < > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/ultrix-11/2.0/AE-X370C-TC_ULTRIX-11_2.0SPD_Sep84.pdf> > it seems that at least one part of Digital used partitions as we now know > it in September 1984. I wonder if AT&T Unix Seventh edition also called > them partitions? > Unix has called these "pseudo-disks" in Unix 4th edition through the 7th edition, at least in their driver man pages. The 6th and 7th edition setup guides, however, have this in them: The big disk drivers (rp.c and hp.c) have partition tables in them which you may want to experiment with. which dates from March, 1975 and seems to be in /usr/start/start in the distributions. Warner From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 1 10:07:43 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:07:43 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9d20745f-4272-f631-f6cc-8870d28408d5@pico-systems.com> On 2/1/22 00:38, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 07:51:28PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just >> support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files. That makes >> for a very small and very fast file system. Well, the IBM 360 CKD disks had all files contiguous, too. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 1 10:14:02 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:14:02 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> On 2/1/22 04:02, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > One of our favourite small PC builders, Panrix, questioned this. They > reckoned that having the swap file on the outer, longer tracks of the > drive made it slower, due to slower access times and slower transfer > speeds. They were adamant. > HUH?? Yes, the outer tracks ARE longer, but the whole platter spins at the same angular velocity, so there can't be any speed difference!? Did they think there is a whole bunch of magnetic tape inside the drive?? Wow! Jon From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:17:50 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:17:50 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <360f50be-f9b7-0d79-7651-88a20b9c6c0f@gmail.com> Covering more distance in the same time means increased speed to me! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-02-01 11:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 2/1/22 04:02, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> One of our favourite small PC builders, Panrix, questioned this. They >> reckoned that having the swap file on the outer, longer tracks of the >> drive made it slower, due to slower access times and slower transfer >> speeds. They were adamant. >> > HUH?? Yes, the outer tracks ARE longer, but the whole platter spins at > the same angular velocity, so there can't be any speed difference!? > Did they think there is a whole bunch of magnetic tape inside the > drive?? Wow! > > Jon > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:20:51 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:20:51 +0100 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 at 14:50, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > With contemporary ATA hard disks (and also SCSI disks) obviously the > opposite was the case, due to the ZBR sector mapping scheme. Zone bit recording? > The outer > cylinders had the fastest transfer speeds. Ah, OK. Also bearing in mind Paul K's similar point: On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 at 15:20, Paul Koning wrote: [...] > And very obviously wrong -- elementary geometry. [...] > The bits are physically longer, of course. That's why later drives put more sectors per track as you move outward, and that means that the transfer rate on outer tracks is *higher* than for inner tracks. And some storage systems indeed use that knowledge. So, taking both these in mind and checking my references, I think I had it backwards. According to: https://www.file-recovery.com/recovery-hard-disk-drive-basics.htm#:~:text=Tracks%20and%20Cylinders&text=Track%20numbers%20start%20at%200,track%20would%20typically%20be%201023. Track 0 is the _outermost_ track. So the upshot is the same: Panrix were concerned that putting a swap partition on the highest-numbered tracks would mean it was on the slowest part of the disk. But I had it backwards -- that means, at the centre of the platters: inner tracks, not outer. Anyway, I took a virgin machine of theirs, defragged it, benchmarked it, created a swap partition at the end of the drive, moved the swap there, defragged both drives, and benchmarked it again. No consistent measurable difference to 2 decimal places. This was a real-world benchmark using MS Office, Photoshop and other tools. A full run took 20min or so on a fast PC for 1996. What I was able to demonstrate was that location on the hard disk of the swap file made no measurable impact. They were very surprised by this. My personal takeaway from running that magazine's labs for a couple of years is that a lot of PC performance lore had about as much validity as astrology, homeopathy or the Myers-Briggs test. I.e. none at all. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 1 10:21:05 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:21:05 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2022, 9:14 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 2/1/22 04:02, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > > One of our favourite small PC builders, Panrix, questioned this. They > > reckoned that having the swap file on the outer, longer tracks of the > > drive made it slower, due to slower access times and slower transfer > > speeds. They were adamant. > > > HUH? Yes, the outer tracks ARE longer, but the whole > platter spins at the same angular velocity, so there can't > be any speed difference! Did they think there is a whole > bunch of magnetic tape inside the drive? Wow! > Drive makers these days use variable bit rates to increase density of the outer tracks. The lower LBAs these days are faster for sequential transfer than the inner tracks by as much as 20%. Warner From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 1 10:26:46 2022 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:26:46 +0000 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <360f50be-f9b7-0d79-7651-88a20b9c6c0f@gmail.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <360f50be-f9b7-0d79-7651-88a20b9c6c0f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7effbe11-f98d-8493-85ec-b12a5fe9babc@ntlworld.com> On 01/02/2022 16:17, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Covering more distance in the same time means increased speed to me! Not if you stretch the bits, as older drives did. You are still covering more linear distance per unit time but the magnetic data is smeared out just enough to counteract this. This is the disk equivalent of the Lorentz contraction. :-) So the relative speed of your head over the platter is faster but the observable effect (data transfer rate) is the same as it is on the inner tracks. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Feb 1 11:16:22 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:16:22 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> In the rotating drive world there is constant linear velocity (CLV) and constant angular velocity (CAV) drives. On CLV drives the speed of rotation would vary based on the track (slower in the inner tracks and faster on the outer tracks).? This meant that the data rate and number of bits/track remained constant. On CAV drives the rotational speed of the drive doesn't change, this means that the data rate and number of bits/track changes depending on the track. On 2/1/2022 10:14 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 2/1/22 04:02, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> One of our favourite small PC builders, Panrix, questioned this. They >> reckoned that having the swap file on the outer, longer tracks of the >> drive made it slower, due to slower access times and slower transfer >> speeds. They were adamant. >> > HUH?? Yes, the outer tracks ARE longer, but the whole platter spins at > the same angular velocity, so there can't be any speed difference!? > Did they think there is a whole bunch of magnetic tape inside the > drive?? Wow! > > Jon > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 11:21:33 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:21:33 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:16 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > In the rotating drive world there is constant linear velocity (CLV) and constant angular velocity (CAV) drives. > > On CLV drives the speed of rotation would vary based on the track (slower in the inner tracks and faster on the outer tracks). This meant that the data rate and number of bits/track remained constant. Slower on the outer tracks, I believe. CDs work this way. > On CAV drives the rotational speed of the drive doesn't change, this means that the data rate and number of bits/track changes depending on the track. It means that only if the sector count changes. That's true for modern drives and for the CDC 6603; it wasn't true for quite a while. A lot of "classic" disk drives have constant sector counts. So, for example, an RP06 is a CAV drive and its transfer rate is independent of cylinder number since the sector count per track is constant. I think hard drives are CAV as a rule because changing the spin rate as part of a seek takes too long. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 11:33:36 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:33:36 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> > On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:21 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:16 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> In the rotating drive world there is constant linear velocity (CLV) and constant angular velocity (CAV) drives. >> >> On CLV drives the speed of rotation would vary based on the track (slower in the inner tracks and faster on the outer tracks). This meant that the data rate and number of bits/track remained constant. > > Slower on the outer tracks, I believe. CDs work this way. More precisely: CLV means slower rotation when positioned on the outer cylinders. The outer cylinders have more sectors; the layout is such that the linear bit density is roughly constant, which in turn because of the constant linear velocity means constant data rate. >> On CAV drives the rotational speed of the drive doesn't change, this means that the data rate and number of bits/track changes depending on the track. > > It means that only if the sector count changes. That's true for modern drives and for the CDC 6603; it wasn't true for quite a while. A lot of "classic" disk drives have constant sector counts. So, for example, an RP06 is a CAV drive and its transfer rate is independent of cylinder number since the sector count per track is constant. > > I think hard drives are CAV as a rule because changing the spin rate as part of a seek takes too long. Variable sector count is independent of CLV vs. CAV. Modern drives have it, classic CAV drives mostly do not. A CAV drive with fixed sector counts has fixed data rate; a CAV drive with more sectors on the outer tracks has higher transfer rate on those tracks. paul From cube1 at charter.net Tue Feb 1 11:57:10 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:57:10 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <9d20745f-4272-f631-f6cc-8870d28408d5@pico-systems.com> References: <9d20745f-4272-f631-f6cc-8870d28408d5@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPad > On Feb 1, 2022, at 10:43, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 2/1/22 00:38, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 07:51:28PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> [...] >>> Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just >>> support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files. That makes >>> for a very small and very fast file system. > > Well, the IBM 360 CKD disks had all files contiguous, too. > > Jon > That is not accurate. CKD files (and FBA files, for that matter) can have multiple *extents*. An extent is contiguous by nature, but if a file has multiple extents it is not contiguous other than by coincidence. Side note: Intergraph made disk controllers for the PDP11 and Vaxen that required graphics files (IGDS) to be contiguous so that the on-board CPU could scan for graphic element characteristics (layer, type, etc.) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 1 11:59:50 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:59:50 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <00a401d816f3$da6cd860$8f468920$@comcast.net> <96131D0D-C1B0-4038-9C3B-EBF767EB0E63@me.com> Message-ID: <6fda5efd-abaa-4cb5-45ac-88f9669cb41c@sydex.com> There's also hardware partitioning. Back in the bad old days of the 5160 PC, some DTC controllers allowed for partitioning a drive (using witch settings) into two smaller drives. I don't recall the exact BIOS revision (BXD05?) where this came into play, but I have the manual. --Chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Feb 1 12:00:10 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:00:10 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <7117a1bb-d5c2-9fb9-351a-18299a88fff9@12bitsbest.com> In those cases the bits/inch changed to keep a constant data rate and constant number of bits and sectors per track. On 2/1/2022 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:16 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> In the rotating drive world there is constant linear velocity (CLV) and constant angular velocity (CAV) drives. >> >> On CLV drives the speed of rotation would vary based on the track (slower in the inner tracks and faster on the outer tracks). This meant that the data rate and number of bits/track remained constant. > Slower on the outer tracks, I believe. CDs work this way. > >> On CAV drives the rotational speed of the drive doesn't change, this means that the data rate and number of bits/track changes depending on the track. > It means that only if the sector count changes. That's true for modern drives and for the CDC 6603; it wasn't true for quite a while. A lot of "classic" disk drives have constant sector counts. So, for example, an RP06 is a CAV drive and its transfer rate is independent of cylinder number since the sector count per track is constant. > > I think hard drives are CAV as a rule because changing the spin rate as part of a seek takes too long. > > paul > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 1 12:03:48 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:03:48 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/22 09:16, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > In the rotating drive world there is constant linear velocity (CLV) and > constant angular velocity (CAV) drives. > > On CLV drives the speed of rotation would vary based on the track > (slower in the inner tracks and faster on the outer tracks).? This meant > that the data rate and number of bits/track remained constant. > > On CAV drives the rotational speed of the drive doesn't change, this > means that the data rate and number of bits/track changes depending on > the track. I suspect that most recent ATA and SCSI drives employ "Zoned" recording. That is, the disk is divided up into several annular "zones", each with its own data rate. The rotational speed remains constant, however. This is not even recent. The old Bryant 4000 disks used such a scheme and it was used on many old drives after that. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 12:04:18 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:04:18 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:21 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:16 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> In the rotating drive world there is constant linear velocity (CLV) and constant angular velocity (CAV) drives. >> >> On CLV drives the speed of rotation would vary based on the track (slower in the inner tracks and faster on the outer tracks). This meant that the data rate and number of bits/track remained constant. > > Slower on the outer tracks, I believe. CDs work this way. I suspect CLV was invented for CDs, in fact. The reason is obvious: CDs contain uncompressed digital audio, i.e., constant bit rate. If you want to avoid big buffers -- an expensive thing to have in 1980s consumer electronics -- the bits have to come off the media at essentially the desired payload data rate. So you either use CAV with constant sector counts, which wastes a whole lot of capacity given that the ratio of inner to outer radius is quite large on a CD, or you go to CLV. The variable rotation rate is easy enough to handle because CDs are accessed sequentially; the speed change on track switch is small because track switches are only by +1 (during play). You can often hear the RPM changes clearly, if you're asking the CD player to do random access by skipping around the songs. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 12:09:54 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:09:54 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:04 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > Slower on the outer tracks, I believe. CDs work this way. > > I suspect CLV was invented for CDs, in fact. Which came first CLV CDs, or CLV LaserDiscs? From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 12:21:42 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:21:42 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2022, at 1:09 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:04 AM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> >>> Slower on the outer tracks, I believe. CDs work this way. >> >> I suspect CLV was invented for CDs, in fact. > > Which came first CLV CDs, or CLV LaserDiscs? I forgot about LaserDisc. That's earlier, says Wikipedia. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 12:23:38 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:23:38 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> > On Feb 1, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/1/22 09:16, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> In the rotating drive world there is constant linear velocity (CLV) and >> constant angular velocity (CAV) drives. >> >> On CLV drives the speed of rotation would vary based on the track >> (slower in the inner tracks and faster on the outer tracks). This meant >> that the data rate and number of bits/track remained constant. >> >> On CAV drives the rotational speed of the drive doesn't change, this >> means that the data rate and number of bits/track changes depending on >> the track. > > I suspect that most recent ATA and SCSI drives employ "Zoned" recording. > That is, the disk is divided up into several annular "zones", each with > its own data rate. The rotational speed remains constant, however. As far as I know zoned recording is universal at this point. Don't know how far back it goes. Did any DEC MSCP disks use it? > This is not even recent. The old Bryant 4000 disks used such a scheme > and it was used on many old drives after that. Those are the ones CDC sold as 6603. Four zones, handled by the driver. (Also 12 bit parallel data rather than the usual serial data stream.) paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Feb 1 12:41:55 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:41:55 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5791c658-eff0-5ef1-0372-6e93fdb80e73@alembic.crystel.com> > Which came first CLV CDs, or CLV LaserDiscs? Laserdiscs by far. Only the very first models played CAV only. CAV is nice because you can freeze frame without a frame buffer. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 12:42:33 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:42:33 -0400 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2022-02-01 14:09, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:04 AM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >>> Slower on the outer tracks, I believe. CDs work this way. >> I suspect CLV was invented for CDs, in fact. > Which came first CLV CDs, or CLV LaserDiscs? How about CLV diskettes as used in the Victor 9000 that changed rotational speed several times to obtain higher capacity on 5.25 diskettes.? I wonder how long it took to settle after stepping over a speed change boundary. Paul. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 1 12:46:39 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:46:39 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <360f50be-f9b7-0d79-7651-88a20b9c6c0f@gmail.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <360f50be-f9b7-0d79-7651-88a20b9c6c0f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02a6d9c9-d07a-c2d3-bbaa-d85ea8d70bb6@pico-systems.com> On 2/1/22 10:17, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Covering more distance in the same time means increased > speed to me! > > Clearly, on a disk, the outer tracks ARE moving faster, in > terms of linear velocity. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 1 13:09:39 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:09:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220131214352.326C518C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2022, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > FAT's *file* size limitation is indeed due to a 32 bit field. The ISO 9660 > standard offers an "interesting" solution to that, namely having multiple > directory entries for the same filename. So if you want to store files > larger than 4GiB on a CD-ROM, the filesystem won't hold you back. Multiple DIRectory entries ("extents") for the same file was also how CP/M handled "large" files. And, how Windoze stores "long filenames", although that's just using up DIRectory space for the filenames, with a pointer to the "real" entry. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 1 13:40:46 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:40:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Many/most? early drives were CAV (Constant Angeular Velocity) with the same amount of data on each track. Therefore, the data transfer rate, once on the right track, was the same. BUT, the bits were physically closer to each other on the inner (higher numbered) tracks, and the error rate was sometimes noticeably higher on the inner tracks. (and hence TG43 on 8"drives) That was why most OS's would allocate space starting at the outside (lower numbered) tracks, and only use the innermost tracks when necessary. With no errors, inner and outer tracks were the same speed. BUT, if you count RETRY's on a less than a perfect disk, then outer tracks had faster access than inner tracks. In addition, track to track step times were conservative, often without knowing what step rate the drive could do, to allow plenty of time for completion and settling. In fact, one of the changes from PC-DOS 2.00 to PC-DOS 2.10 was to slow the step rate, because the Qumetrak 142 drives in the Convertible and PCJr were much slower. Some floppy drives could do a "Recalibrate" (seek to track 0) much faster, and use a track 0 sensor to know when it had arrived. Many OS's, when they encountered a "SEEK ERROR" (reading the track shows a different track number than desired), would RECALIBRATE and then step by step seek back to the desired track, rather than calculating how many tracks they were off. Because of that, access time to get to the desired track was sometimes faster for the outer (lower numbered) tracks, due to detours to track 0. Since the DIRectory gets accessed more than any other location, access time to the DIRectory track is especially important. Some OS's, including Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, COCO, etc. put the DIRectory at the seek center. So long as there were no "SEEK ERROR"s, that was faster, but when there WERE "SEEK ERROR"s, putting the DIRectory on track 0 (such as MS-DOS and Mac) was faster. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Feb 1 13:42:48 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:42:48 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 2/1/22 2:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > There's several advantages to doing it that way, including balancing > wear on a disk (especially today, with SSDs), as a dedicated swap > partition could put undue wear on certain areas of disk. I thought avoiding this very problem was the purpose of the wear leveling functions in SSD controllers. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From john at forecast.name Tue Feb 1 13:43:03 2022 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:43:03 -0500 Subject: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C5B4132-ADB2-4090-8EF5-54C92BB3D882@forecast.name> On Feb 1, 2022, at 8:20 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > KMC11 - Paul K cited the docs. It was a bit different from DMC CPU board > in both cycle time and in the use of ram versus prom. > Both boards/products used the 4bit Alu but I don't call that bit > slice, as the 2901 is more of a bit slice. > KMC and DMC are Harvard architecture based devices, as is the 11/60 CPU. > DMC and KMC benefited from the microcode work of Harvey Schlesinger, > Bob Rosenbaum, Richie Larry, and I think Clarise joined the team in > 77. Can't recall her last name. Patton? Harvey, Bob and Clarise joined the DECnet-RSX development team sometime in 77/78. John. > DMC had (when I left the project and it had been shipping for a year > or two) a 300NS cycle time, while the KMC had a 240NS cycle time > thanks to the instruction register I had suggested to remi as we were > thinking of a RAM based device because PROMS were a royal pain with 2 > and 3 code changes a day. This change allowed the machine to begin to > access the next instruction as one was executing - there are no > interrupts in either board. > bob From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 1 13:48:38 2022 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:48:38 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <58622615-5645-579e-fff9-87007d8deada@floodgap.com> >> There's several advantages to doing it that way, including balancing wear on >> a disk (especially today, with SSDs), as a dedicated swap partition could put >> undue wear on certain areas of disk. > > I thought avoiding this very problem was the purpose of the wear leveling > functions in SSD controllers. Yeah, it's all block level now. The controller shouldn't care about the purpose of an individual block. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A/C was the worst thing that ever happened to Washington. -- Harry S Truman From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 13:52:59 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:52:59 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2022, at 2:42 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/1/22 2:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >> There's several advantages to doing it that way, including balancing wear on a disk (especially today, with SSDs), as a dedicated swap partition could put undue wear on certain areas of disk. > > I thought avoiding this very problem was the purpose of the wear leveling functions in SSD controllers. Definitely. But apparently wear from repeated writes is a thing on very high density modern HDDs, much to my surprise. It's not as dramatic as flash memory but it apparently does exist. For most purposes it probably isn't very important. Especially not swap partitions: if you're swapping enough for this to matter you have bigger problems. :-) paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 1 14:29:48 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:29:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <02a6d9c9-d07a-c2d3-bbaa-d85ea8d70bb6@pico-systems.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <360f50be-f9b7-0d79-7651-88a20b9c6c0f@gmail.com> <02a6d9c9-d07a-c2d3-bbaa-d85ea8d70bb6@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> Covering more distance in the same time means increased speed to me! On Tue, 1 Feb 2022, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> Clearly, on a disk, the outer tracks ARE moving faster, in terms of linear >> velocity. If the data is written at a constant data transfer rate, and the motion of the disk is the same when reading as for writing, then the data transfer rate in unaffected. With CAV, the physical width of the bits is larger on the outer tracks, where the linear velocity is higher. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Feb 1 15:31:49 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:31:49 -0700 Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2/1/22 11:23 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Did any DEC MSCP disks use it? Please expand "MSCP". My brain is failing to do so at the moment. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 15:40:57 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:40:57 -0500 Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2022, at 4:31 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/1/22 11:23 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Did any DEC MSCP disks use it? > > Please expand "MSCP". My brain is failing to do so at the moment. Mass Storage Control Protocol, the geometry-independent storage access scheme DEC created in the early 1980s. Early implementations include the HSC50 (for VAXclusters) and the UDA50 (Unibus adapter), talking to disk drives such as the RA80. With MSCP, DEC switched to addressing disks by sector offset, as SCSI did later, rather than by geometry (cylinder, track, sector) on devices like the RK05 and RP06. If the OS sees only an LBA, it doesn't matter whether the drive uses zone recording; such complexity can be hidden inside the controller firmware. But I don't know if that was actually done, either at that time or in later generations. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Feb 1 15:52:27 2022 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:52:27 -0700 Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2/1/22 2:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Mass Storage Control Protocol... Thank you Paul. My brain was trying to expand to a company, and ending up at MASSCOMP before failing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 1 16:08:25 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:08:25 -0800 Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6777c07f-d342-a782-001c-a32c8d57abc2@sydex.com> On 2/1/22 13:40, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > With MSCP, DEC switched to addressing disks by sector offset, as SCSI did later, rather than by geometry (cylinder, track, sector) on devices like the RK05 and RP06. If the OS sees only an LBA, it doesn't matter whether the drive uses zone recording; such complexity can be hidden inside the controller firmware. But I don't know if that was actually done, either at that time or in later generations. Good grief, it took DEC all that time? CDC was doing it in the 1960s. Had to, because of the wide variety of RMS available. I think that one of the early 2311 clone drives (854?) used 256-byte (8 bit byte) hard-sectored media, which isn't very friendly to systems with 60 bit words. I recall that several sectors were used to create a logical 60-bit word addressable sector, with a substantial part of the last sector of a logical PRU left unused. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 16:17:40 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:17:40 -0500 Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <6777c07f-d342-a782-001c-a32c8d57abc2@sydex.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> <6777c07f-d342-a782-001c-a32c8d57abc2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <12FA246A-05DE-41A8-AD24-1A8531B32E71@comcast.net> > On Feb 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/1/22 13:40, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> > >> With MSCP, DEC switched to addressing disks by sector offset, as SCSI did later, rather than by geometry (cylinder, track, sector) on devices like the RK05 and RP06. If the OS sees only an LBA, it doesn't matter whether the drive uses zone recording; such complexity can be hidden inside the controller firmware. But I don't know if that was actually done, either at that time or in later generations. > > Good grief, it took DEC all that time? CDC was doing it in the 1960s. > Had to, because of the wide variety of RMS available. I think that > one of the early 2311 clone drives (854?) used 256-byte (8 bit byte) > hard-sectored media, which isn't very friendly to systems with 60 bit > words. I recall that several sectors were used to create a logical > 60-bit word addressable sector, with a substantial part of the last > sector of a logical PRU left unused. I didn't know that one. The only drive I really know is the 844, an RP04 lookalike, which does have friendly size sectors, laid out by the controller ("BSC"). LBA addressing, in CDC? Where is that? On the 6000 series, I remember classic c/h/s addressing. The OS would convert those to "logical track and sector" addresses, sure. But that was a file system structure thing really. PLATO ignored all that overhead and laid its own file system directly on top of the disks, with the file system block offset to c/h/s mapping done in the PP. So yes, it necessarily knew the drive layout. For that matter, with "logical tracks" the OS still had to know the layout; it just got buried into the logical to physical mapping system request code, in the CP monitor for extra inefficiency. paul From chrise at pobox.com Tue Feb 1 16:42:58 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:42:58 -0600 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <5791c658-eff0-5ef1-0372-6e93fdb80e73@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <223E6CA7-E484-4B15-B2DE-D3DFEE92CA71@comcast.net> <5791c658-eff0-5ef1-0372-6e93fdb80e73@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20220201224258.GH6751@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (02/01/2022 at 01:41PM -0500), Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Which came first CLV CDs, or CLV LaserDiscs? > > Laserdiscs by far. Only the very first models played CAV only. > > CAV is nice because you can freeze frame without a frame buffer. Yes! My dad did some of the first work on LaserDiscs-- built 3Ms plant for making them in the late 70s. As a result, we always had "samples" from the production line to watch at home and numerous different players to check out. CAV allowed you to freeze frame, step forward and back and never loose frame sync. You had a solid picture no matter whether it was playing, stepping or paused. But, you also got at most about 30 mins / side on a disc and so a movie was 3 or 4 discs in length. With CLV, you got more on the disc, about an hour per side or a whole movie on one disc but you could not smoothly pause or step it. Some players would completely disallow it and some would display the torn image with pieces from multiple adjacent frames. CAV was used a lot for educational discs where the player was controlled by a computer (in one case we had, a Sony CP/M machine) which combined the interactive educational software on the computer with video content on the disc. The Sony computer had a genlock system in it so that it could overlay computer graphics on the video signal from the disc player. This was 1979 or 1980 if I remember correctly. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Tue Feb 1 16:57:36 2022 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:57:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <6777c07f-d342-a782-001c-a32c8d57abc2@sydex.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> <6777c07f-d342-a782-001c-a32c8d57abc2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1366118282.2079913.1643756256382@email.ionos.com> > On 02/01/2022 4:08 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > Good grief, it took DEC all that time? CDC was doing it in the 1960s. > Had to, because of the wide variety of RMS available. I think that > one of the early 2311 clone drives (854?) used 256-byte (8 bit byte) > hard-sectored media, which isn't very friendly to systems with 60 bit > words. I recall that several sectors were used to create a logical > 60-bit word addressable sector, with a substantial part of the last > sector of a logical PRU left unused. > > --Chuck LTA predates that considerably and is the earliest I am aware of. LTA (Logical Tooth Addressing) was created in the 1850's by Babbage to avoid the "shaft, gear, tooth" addressing he had been using in his "store." The teeth of all gears were numbered sequentially (starting at 0 of course) across all the gears and shafts. He even kept a few spare gears in a drawer for wear leveling. It's believed the idea actually originated with Ada since it made her task much easier. Will From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 1 17:00:06 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:00:06 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 12:42 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2/1/22 2:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > There's several advantages to doing it that way, including balancing > > wear on a disk (especially today, with SSDs), as a dedicated swap > > partition could put undue wear on certain areas of disk. > > I thought avoiding this very problem was the purpose of the wear > leveling functions in SSD controllers. > All modern SSD's firmware that I'm aware of decouple the physical location from the LBA. They implement some variation of 'append store log' that abstracts out the LBAs from the chips the data is stored in. One big reason for this is so that one worn out 'erase block' doesn't cause a hole in the LBA range the drive can store data on. You expect to retire hundreds or thousands of erase blocks in today's NAND over the life of the drive, and coupling LBAs to a physical location makes that impossible. Warner From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 17:46:46 2022 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 18:46:46 -0500 Subject: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up In-Reply-To: <9C5B4132-ADB2-4090-8EF5-54C92BB3D882@forecast.name> References: <9C5B4132-ADB2-4090-8EF5-54C92BB3D882@forecast.name> Message-ID: Yes! thank you! Nice, smart, and did good work despite the magateer, I mean marketing dweeb. I lost track of Harvey, Bob wen ont to start a company over in west concord, can't recall the name, used some of his gear for projects in the mid 80s. I was designing a comms system in late 80s and heard Len Bosak had started a company, had a couple of meetings with him, and went with hs gear. Man those were fun post DEC projexcts. bob smith (PDP8 engineering, DecComm (Stockebrand, VInce et al), small systems, then of toe LCG for 2080... On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:43 PM John Forecast wrote: > > On Feb 1, 2022, at 8:20 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > > KMC11 - Paul K cited the docs. It was a bit different from DMC CPU board > > in both cycle time and in the use of ram versus prom. > > Both boards/products used the 4bit Alu but I don't call that bit > > slice, as the 2901 is more of a bit slice. > > KMC and DMC are Harvard architecture based devices, as is the 11/60 CPU. > > DMC and KMC benefited from the microcode work of Harvey Schlesinger, > > Bob Rosenbaum, Richie Larry, and I think Clarise joined the team in > > 77. Can't recall her last name. > > Patton? Harvey, Bob and Clarise joined the DECnet-RSX development team sometime in 77/78. > > John. > > > DMC had (when I left the project and it had been shipping for a year > > or two) a 300NS cycle time, while the KMC had a 240NS cycle time > > thanks to the instruction register I had suggested to remi as we were > > thinking of a RAM based device because PROMS were a royal pain with 2 > > and 3 code changes a day. This change allowed the machine to begin to > > access the next instruction as one was executing - there are no > > interrupts in either board. > > bob > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 1 17:46:48 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:46:48 -0600 Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> Message-ID: <03cdda91-5436-80fb-bc16-eb5b4c7b7e55@pico-systems.com> On 2/1/22 15:40, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Feb 1, 2022, at 4:31 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2/1/22 11:23 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> Did any DEC MSCP disks use it? >> Please expand "MSCP". My brain is failing to do so at the moment. > Mass Storage Control Protocol, the geometry-independent storage access scheme DEC created in the early 1980s. Early implementations include the HSC50 (for VAXclusters) and the UDA50 (Unibus adapter), talking to disk drives such as the RA80. > > With MSCP, DEC switched to addressing disks by sector offset, as SCSI did later, rather than by geometry (cylinder, track, sector) All SCSI devices were logical block number, all the way back to the original SASI (Shugart Associates System Interface).? I had a 10 MB Memorex Winchester drive with SASI adapter on my Z-80 CP/M system in about 1981 or so.? Maybe I misunderstood your sentence above, what the "later" applied to. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 18:32:28 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:32:28 -0500 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5F86CE03-BAAF-4D22-BFCA-5C276F0A5886@comcast.net> > On Feb 1, 2022, at 6:00 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 12:42 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 2/1/22 2:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>> There's several advantages to doing it that way, including balancing >>> wear on a disk (especially today, with SSDs), as a dedicated swap >>> partition could put undue wear on certain areas of disk. >> >> I thought avoiding this very problem was the purpose of the wear >> leveling functions in SSD controllers. > > All modern SSD's firmware that I'm aware of decouple the physical location > from the LBA. They implement some variation of 'append store log' that > abstracts out the LBAs from the chips the data is stored in. One big reason > for this is so that one worn out 'erase block' doesn't cause a hole in the > LBA > range the drive can store data on. You expect to retire hundreds or > thousands of erase blocks in today's NAND over the life of the drive, and > coupling LBAs to a physical location makes that impossible. Another reason is that the flash memory write block size is larger than the sector size exposed to the host, and the erase block size is much larger than the write block size. So the firmware has to keep track of retired data, move stuff around to collect an erase block worth of that, then erase it to make it available again to receive incoming writes. The spare capacity of an SSD can be pretty substantial. I remember one some years ago that had a bug which, in a subtle way, exposed the internal structure of the device. It turned out the exposed capacity was 49/64th of the physical flash space. Strange fraction, I don't think we were ever told why, but the supplier did confirm we analyzed it correctly. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 18:34:47 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:34:47 -0500 Subject: OT: Who? What? Was: Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <03cdda91-5436-80fb-bc16-eb5b4c7b7e55@pico-systems.com> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2e748658-05cd-01df-b665-67a6b7f49f2b@pico-systems.com> <3ad69fab-4945-1963-5c10-bd12ce9aa81d@12bitsbest.com> <5F6A3910-5734-4EA8-9832-E48E4EEEF634@comcast.net> <03cdda91-5436-80fb-bc16-eb5b4c7b7e55@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Feb 1, 2022, at 6:46 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/1/22 15:40, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Feb 1, 2022, at 4:31 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 2/1/22 11:23 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> Did any DEC MSCP disks use it? >>> Please expand "MSCP". My brain is failing to do so at the moment. >> Mass Storage Control Protocol, the geometry-independent storage access scheme DEC created in the early 1980s. Early implementations include the HSC50 (for VAXclusters) and the UDA50 (Unibus adapter), talking to disk drives such as the RA80. >> >> With MSCP, DEC switched to addressing disks by sector offset, as SCSI did later, rather than by geometry (cylinder, track, sector) > > All SCSI devices were logical block number, all the way back to the original SASI (Shugart Associates System Interface). I had a 10 MB Memorex Winchester drive with SASI adapter on my Z-80 CP/M system in about 1981 or so. Maybe I misunderstood your sentence above, what the "later" applied to. I meant that SCSI appeared later than MSCP. And that it used LBA addressing, but MSCP did it before SCSI. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 1 18:50:35 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:50:35 -0700 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <5F86CE03-BAAF-4D22-BFCA-5C276F0A5886@comcast.net> References: <20220201003502.EE32A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5729c1a9.ad8d.17eb490ac79.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <2bd1e516-e5d7-772c-5afa-aa6c7eb4aaeb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5F86CE03-BAAF-4D22-BFCA-5C276F0A5886@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 5:32 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Feb 1, 2022, at 6:00 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 12:42 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 2/1/22 2:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > >>> There's several advantages to doing it that way, including balancing > >>> wear on a disk (especially today, with SSDs), as a dedicated swap > >>> partition could put undue wear on certain areas of disk. > >> > >> I thought avoiding this very problem was the purpose of the wear > >> leveling functions in SSD controllers. > > > > All modern SSD's firmware that I'm aware of decouple the physical > location > > from the LBA. They implement some variation of 'append store log' that > > abstracts out the LBAs from the chips the data is stored in. One big > reason > > for this is so that one worn out 'erase block' doesn't cause a hole in > the > > LBA > > range the drive can store data on. You expect to retire hundreds or > > thousands of erase blocks in today's NAND over the life of the drive, and > > coupling LBAs to a physical location makes that impossible. > > Another reason is that the flash memory write block size is larger than > the sector size exposed to the host, and the erase block size is much > larger than the write block size. So the firmware has to keep track of > retired data, move stuff around to collect an erase block worth of that, > then erase it to make it available again to receive incoming writes. > Yes. That larger sector size is the 'erase block' that I was talking about. The whole garbage collection of old data makes or breaks drive performance. There's a number of techniques that are used these days to hide it, though. The extra erase blocks that are free are usual SLC so can be written quickly (and for many work loads recently written blocks are likely to be rewritten soon, so when you GC the SLC pages, you're only doing small portions of them). This buffer of available blocks is one reason you need larger capacity. Another twist: Recently, NAND has a 16k-64k page size, which is one reason you'll see drives report an emulated size of 4k (since it has 4k LBAs), but a native size of 16k or 64k. This helps drive provisioning software align partitions on a boundary that the drive is likely able to handle better. > The spare capacity of an SSD can be pretty substantial. I remember one > some years ago that had a bug which, in a subtle way, exposed the internal > structure of the device. It turned out the exposed capacity was 49/64th of > the physical flash space. Strange fraction, I don't think we were ever > told why, but the supplier did confirm we analyzed it correctly. > The other reason you'd need additional capacity is to meet the endurance requirements of the drive. If the vendor says it will last N years with M months of retention and Z writes, then you have to make sure that after Z writes some margin above your capacity point remains in service. You can usually only keep those blocks whose error rates are low enough that you can safely store data for M months on them in service, and that gets much harder at the end of life. Having a larger over provisioning, you can increase N, M or Z (but usually not all of them). Warner From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Feb 2 03:15:17 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 01:15:17 -0800 Subject: Origin of "partition" in storage devices In-Reply-To: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> References: <005601d816d4$f14a5d10$d3df1730$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/31/2022 11:01 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > > It seems clear it was used in memory well before HDDs but when it got > started there is unclear. > * IBM PC DOS v2 was an early user in 1983 with FDISK and its first PC > support of HDDs > * UNIX, Apple OS's and IBM mainframe all seem to come later. > We had a local grown OS which was really a way to file paper tapes on a disk with file pointers.? We had an allocation method, all the file system things, a VTOC (copied a lot of ibm terms).? Eventually added half inch tape. This was on a Microdata 1621 minicomputer, and was named MPS, or Microdata Programming System.? We could take paper tape distributed software from Microdata, read them in and patch the terminal read / write and in the case of compilers, the paper tape read / write instructions and point them easily at our disk. Anyway our files had a name and? disk pointer which essentially was the cylinder and sector of the file.? All was on a 2.5 mb platter using both surfaces of our the removable pack on the 5mb Western Dynex drive. I added the capability to select surfaces which occurred when you booted the system and it would remember a surface system variable used by the disk routines that the programs didn't have to be concerned with. We could run from either platter this way with a copy of the system. Used the other platter for storing an image and doing a backup. Before that time, we had not written any way to back up, so I built that up. I later implemented a system to save out to tape, and rebuild and install to the disk. Also could later when I worked at Microdata use multiple drive and do the copying as well as double sized disks. There was a lot of odd data stored outside the disk space (allocated and free). I implemented a small rotating log of when the disks were booted, a name for the disk system running you could query, and other information. I don't know how this might fit into partitioning disks, but it did divide the two platter system into two separate file systems.? I never moved it to any hardware requiring more complication, but would have just added more indexing as to where the disk was mounted and what the volume was. You'll note that our 2.5mb file system isn't much larger than two 1.4mb 3 1/2" floppies, but we ran all the system software that we needed, system generation, sources and user files and easily had 20 to 25% of the space left over.? Much smaller systems back then. Single user similar to a large high wattage PC I suppose. The partitioning was implemented in 1972 (or dual platter backup). BTW we had an entertaining file recovery and sort that ran on either platter.? We'd erase the "other" platter to no files, and then copy all the files in on the other volume to the alternate.? When you finished all of your files were sequential and not wasted space. Our file system used linked sectors, and the free space was allocated by a linked list of sectors, not a bitmap.? The beginning of files were luckily odd enough that they could be recognized and another utility could recover all the files and rebuild the entire VTOC with nothing but the files present.? IMplemented over a couple of horrible days when the VTOC got erased. thanks Jim From commodorejohn at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 12:20:25 2022 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 10:20:25 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > Back in the bad old days of the 5160 PC, some DTC controllers allowed for partitioning a drive (using witch settings) I think "witch settings" is my new preferred term for this. They're certainly mysterious and arcane enough. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 2 12:30:33 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 13:30:33 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Feb 2, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: > >> Back in the bad old days of the 5160 PC, some DTC controllers allowed for partitioning a drive (using witch settings) > I think "witch settings" is my new preferred term for this. They're > certainly mysterious and arcane enough. Nice. It would be a good term to apply to VMS SYSGEN parameters that are documented as having units "microfortnights". paul From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Feb 2 16:49:42 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 16:49:42 -0600 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/2/22 12:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> > Nice. It would be a good term to apply to VMS SYSGEN parameters that are documented as having units "microfortnights". > A footnote in the system config guide noted that ufortnights would be approximated at one second. Jon From dave at mitton.com Wed Feb 2 13:31:27 2022 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:31:27 -0500 Subject: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20220202193130.24EDC4E775@mx2.ezwind.net> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 18:46:46 -0500 From: Bob Smith Subject: Re: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes! thank you! Nice, smart, and did good work despite the magateer, I mean marketing dweeb. I lost track of Harvey, Bob wen ont to start a company over in west concord, can't recall the name, used some of his gear for projects in the mid 80s. I was designing a comms system in late 80s and heard Len Bosak had started a company, had a couple of meetings with him, and went with hs gear. Man those were fun post DEC projexcts. bob smith (PDP8 engineering, DecComm (Stockebrand, VInce et al), small systems, then of toe LCG for 2080... On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:43 PM John Forecast wrote: > > On Feb 1, 2022, at 8:20 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > > KMC11 - Paul K cited the docs. It was a bit different from DMC CPU board > > in both cycle time and in the use of ram versus prom. > > Both boards/products used the 4bit Alu but I don't call that bit > > slice, as the 2901 is more of a bit slice. > > KMC and DMC are Harvard architecture based devices, as is the 11/60 CPU. > > DMC and KMC benefited from the microcode work of Harvey Schlesinger, > > Bob Rosenbaum, Richie Larry, and I think Clarise joined the team in > > 77. Can't recall her last name. > > Patton? Harvey, Bob and Clarise joined the DECnet-RSX development team sometime in 77/78. > > John. > > > DMC had (when I left the project and it had been shipping for a year > > or two) a 300NS cycle time, while the KMC had a 240NS cycle time > > thanks to the instruction register I had suggested to remi as we were > > thinking of a RAM based device because PROMS were a royal pain with 2 > > and 3 code changes a day. This change allowed the machine to begin to > > access the next instruction as one was executing - there are no > > interrupts in either board. > > bob > I?ve been watching this thread go by, and never finding time to contribute?. I started in Aug 1977 and finished the CommIOP products from Bob and Harvey. Clarise was no longer involved. It was basically done, I just did the QA on them and released it. I did find some bugs in the debugger we provided. I basically did KMC software support, on and off, going forward. When the KMC-B came out (I think Remi did that) I rev?ed the tools. I also did a KMC Tools package for VMS. I tossed into that package a VMS line printer driver, I wrote as an example and POC, that ran multiples LP11s at significantly better speed. We ran that in our lab. The MIT LCS lab loved that. My memory is weak on things like the ?DMX? and other things that CSS did. The Lab Products group built some successful data collection products around the KMC. Attempts in the Comms HW group to do an updated UNIBUS DH never got off the ground. We (NAC) did pitch the idea of using the CommIOP-DZ to VMS, as a way to off-load character terminal loads, and they would have nothing to do with it. For whatever reasons, they did not like the idea of smart devices. That led to the attempt to build a ?universal? terminal concentrator based on an 11 networked into the system. That project was complicated by what it tried to integrate, and took too long to build. It was overtaken by the simpler LAT based products that DEC went forward with. George Conant, Bob Rosenbaum, and Pete Nesbeda left the company and founded Xyplex that fielded successful products in this space. I could go on, but ? I do have copies of the KMC Tools doc and maybe the CommIOPs, but no KMC hw docs. Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Feb 3 12:06:10 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 18:06:10 +0000 (WET) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router Message-ID: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> I have a Cisco IGS router which hasn't worked for a long time. When I was last using it several years ago, it occasionally crashed and restarted. This turned out to be due to a poor contact on a connection in the cable going from the output of the power supply to the main board. I cleaned the contact more than once but it was difficult to make it good enough to ensure reliability. When I switched it on more recently, it was completely dead, no LEDs, no fan noise, no anything. I put it in the naughty pile and it sat there for a few years before I got around to looking at it. Today I finally managed to check it out. The ceramic F4A mains input fuse beside the power switch on the back panel had blown. When I opened it up, I found a POWER-ONE MAP80-4000 power supply. The main chopper transistor labelled Q1 on the PCB is almost a dead short. It is a large plastic packaged FET mounted on a piece of aluminium which is in turn screwed to the case for heatsinking. Unfortunately, there are no markings on it so I have no idea what to replace it with :-( As Q1 is shorted across all three terminals, whatever drives it may be damaged too :-( After finding screw heads hidden under the label, I managed to extract the PCB from the case and found some corrosion underneath, possibly from leaking electrolytic capacitors :-( There are lots of data sheets available for this power supply on the web but they concentrate on the specifications for the unit and don't say anything about the components :-( There are also lots of people offering to sell power supplies like this for way more than I am interested in spending on this project :-( I could replace the power supply with a different one, however, I don't have anything to hand that will fit in the approx 5-6cm headroom :-( Anyone have any suggestions? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 16:58:00 2022 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2022 17:58:00 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 1:08 PM wrote: > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. (John Ames) > 2. Re: (Paul Koning) > 3. Re: (Jon Elson) > 4. Re: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up (Dave Mitton) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 10:20:25 -0800 > From: John Ames > To: cclist at sydex.com > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Back in the bad old days of the 5160 PC, some DTC controllers allowed for partitioning a drive (using witch settings) > I think "witch settings" is my new preferred term for this. They're > certainly mysterious and arcane enough. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 13:30:33 -0500 > From: Paul Koning > To: John Ames , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Subject: Re: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > On Feb 2, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Back in the bad old days of the 5160 PC, some DTC controllers allowed for partitioning a drive (using witch settings) > > I think "witch settings" is my new preferred term for this. They're > > certainly mysterious and arcane enough. > > Nice. It would be a good term to apply to VMS SYSGEN parameters that are documented as having units "microfortnights". > > paul > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 16:49:42 -0600 > From: Jon Elson > To: Paul Koning via cctalk > Subject: Re: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 2/2/22 12:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> > > Nice. It would be a good term to apply to VMS SYSGEN parameters that are documented as having units "microfortnights". > > > A footnote in the system config guide noted that ufortnights > would be approximated at one second. > > Jon > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:31:27 -0500 > From: Dave Mitton > To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up > Message-ID: <20220202193130.24EDC4E775 at mx2.ezwind.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 18:46:46 -0500 > From: Bob Smith > Subject: Re: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up > Message-ID: > I?ve been watching this thread go by, and never finding time to contribute?. > > I started in Aug 1977 and finished the CommIOP products from Bob and Harvey. Clarise was no longer involved. > It was basically done, I just did the QA on them and released it. I did find some bugs in the debugger we provided. > > I basically did KMC software support, on and off, going forward. When the KMC-B came out (I think Remi did that) > I rev?ed the tools. I also did a KMC Tools package for VMS. I tossed into that package a VMS line printer driver, I wrote as an example and POC, that ran multiples LP11s at significantly better speed. We ran that in our lab. The MIT LCS lab loved that. > > My memory is weak on things like the ?DMX? and other things that CSS did. The Lab Products group built some successful data collection products around the KMC. > > Attempts in the Comms HW group to do an updated UNIBUS DH never got off the ground. We (NAC) did pitch the idea of using the CommIOP-DZ to VMS, as a way to off-load character terminal loads, and they would have nothing to do with it. For whatever reasons, they did not like the idea of smart devices. > > That led to the attempt to build a ?universal? terminal concentrator based on an 11 networked into the system. That project was complicated by what it tried to integrate, and took too long to build. It was overtaken by the simpler LAT based products that DEC went forward with. > > George Conant, Bob Rosenbaum, and Pete Nesbeda left the company and founded Xyplex that fielded successful products in this space. > > I could go on, but ? I do have copies of the KMC Tools doc and maybe the CommIOPs, but no KMC hw docs. > Dave. > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > Hey Dave! I did not mention you because I was not sure you wanted to recall those days! you are correct it was Remi Lisee doing the design, I did the first line units, and then they were redone a few years later. Glad you piped in!! Hope you are doing great! All of you guys were brilliant, except Harvey, he was a royal pain, said with lots of laughs we both got tired or burning roms!! bob smith From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Feb 3 19:42:28 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2022 20:42:28 -0500 Subject: Odd board in a pdp8/e Message-ID: <554c4fbf-aebd-ecde-aac4-9f53ff827feb@alembic.crystel.com> I'm putting stuff together here and it's time to begin working on the 8/E. Looks like a pretty generic system but it has two odd boards. Pair of g227 memory boards, 4 board CPU+Console board, serial board, nothing too special. But two odd Omnibus cards: One is a memory board, half populated, my guess is it's enough memory to bring the computer to 32kw. The other is an mets 303-0115-001. Bunch of 7400 series logic chips, nothing too special. Any idea what it might have been? Timeshare option? Something else? Not a peripheral controller from what I can see. C From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 20:17:42 2022 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2022 18:17:42 -0800 Subject: Odd board in a pdp8/e In-Reply-To: <554c4fbf-aebd-ecde-aac4-9f53ff827feb@alembic.crystel.com> References: <554c4fbf-aebd-ecde-aac4-9f53ff827feb@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/2022 5:42 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > But two odd Omnibus cards: One is a memory board, half populated, my > guess is it's enough memory to bring the computer to 32kw. The other is > an mets 303-0115-001. Bunch of 7400 series logic chips, nothing too > special. > > Any idea what it might have been? Timeshare option? Something else? Not > a peripheral controller from what I can see. The MSC_303-0115 is indeed an M837 clone -- the Timeshare option: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/MSC_303-0115/ Did you get that from Jack, or is this a different one? Not enough information above to identify the memory board, I'm afraid. :-) Vince From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Feb 3 20:41:47 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2022 21:41:47 -0500 Subject: Odd board in a pdp8/e In-Reply-To: References: <554c4fbf-aebd-ecde-aac4-9f53ff827feb@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > The MSC_303-0115 is indeed an M837 clone -- the Timeshare option: > http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/MSC_303-0115/ > Did you get that from Jack, or is this a different one? Nope, just been in this system forever. I'm finally starting to work on the power supply now that the 8/L's are (mostly) working. Need to get this stuff running and either out of here or into use. > Not enough information above to identify the memory board, I'm afraid. :-) It's a MD-V PL/PDP8 303-0112-002. Half populated with 4k RAMs. So I'm guessing 16kw in the computer in core, 16kw RAM. It is smaller than the old Fabritek core box :-) C From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 20:54:16 2022 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2022 18:54:16 -0800 Subject: Odd board in a pdp8/e In-Reply-To: References: <554c4fbf-aebd-ecde-aac4-9f53ff827feb@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/2022 6:41 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > It's a MD-V PL/PDP8 303-0112-002. Half populated with 4k RAMs. So I'm > guessing 16kw in the computer in core, 16kw RAM. Ah, now *that* apparently has a manual on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/monolithicSystems/100-023-000_Monostore_V_8K_PDP-8_Memory_Jan75.pdf This seems to be the same board: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/monolithicSystems/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem_Jul76.pdf Vince From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 08:38:00 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 22:38:00 +0800 Subject: IBM 129 keypunch on Ebay Message-ID: There is a nice looking IBM 129 keypunch on Ebay for what I think is a very reasonable "buy it now" price of US$1799: https://www.ebay.com/itm/333898748391 Shipping to Australia would be horrendous otherwise I would have bought it. Best regards Tom Hunter From macro at orcam.me.uk Fri Feb 4 10:03:36 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 16:03:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Today I finally managed to check it out. The ceramic F4A mains input fuse > beside the power switch on the back panel had blown. When I opened it up, > I found a POWER-ONE MAP80-4000 power supply. The main chopper transistor > labelled Q1 on the PCB is almost a dead short. It is a large plastic > packaged FET mounted on a piece of aluminium which is in turn screwed to > the case for heatsinking. Unfortunately, there are no markings on it so > I have no idea what to replace it with :-( > > As Q1 is shorted across all three terminals, whatever drives it may be > damaged too :-( > > After finding screw heads hidden under the label, I managed to extract > the PCB from the case and found some corrosion underneath, possibly from > leaking electrolytic capacitors :-( This PSU seems to have been used across various Cisco devices and I had one fail several years ago in a WS-C1202 Ethernet/FDDI switch, also having suffered from leaking caps. Back then RS still had it in stock at a hefty price of ?489.60: , so I chose to recap the failed one and thanfully it has continued working ever since. You may try to enquire with the manufacturer. Good luck with bringing yours back to life! FWIW, Maciej From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Feb 5 05:27:54 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 11:27:54 +0000 (WET) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S9DVK08YHS8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > On Thu, 3 Feb 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > >> Today I finally managed to check it out. The ceramic F4A mains input fuse >> beside the power switch on the back panel had blown. When I opened it up, >> I found a POWER-ONE MAP80-4000 power supply. The main chopper transistor >> labelled Q1 on the PCB is almost a dead short. It is a large plastic >> packaged FET mounted on a piece of aluminium which is in turn screwed to >> the case for heatsinking. Unfortunately, there are no markings on it so >> I have no idea what to replace it with :-( >> >> As Q1 is shorted across all three terminals, whatever drives it may be >> damaged too :-( >> >> After finding screw heads hidden under the label, I managed to extract >> the PCB from the case and found some corrosion underneath, possibly from >> leaking electrolytic capacitors :-( > > This PSU seems to have been used across various Cisco devices and I had > one fail several years ago in a WS-C1202 Ethernet/FDDI switch, also having > suffered from leaking caps. Back then RS still had it in stock at a hefty > price of ?489.60: , so I > chose to recap the failed one and thanfully it has continued working ever > since. You may try to enquire with the manufacturer. > > Good luck with bringing yours back to life! > Thanks Maciej. I'll be surprised if the manufacturer has records of what they used for the chopper in power supplies 30 years ago - who knows if their design has changed between then and now. I'll be even more suprised if they will talk to me about it but I guess it's worth a try. Regards, Peter. > > FWIW, > > Maciej From pb at pbcl.net Sat Feb 5 08:17:48 2022 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 15:17:48 +0100 Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20220205141748.GP1021@pbcl.net> On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 06:06:10PM +0000, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Today I finally managed to check it out. The ceramic F4A mains input fuse > beside the power switch on the back panel had blown. When I opened it up, > I found a POWER-ONE MAP80-4000 power supply. The main chopper transistor > labelled Q1 on the PCB is almost a dead short. It is a large plastic > packaged FET mounted on a piece of aluminium which is in turn screwed to > the case for heatsinking. Unfortunately, there are no markings on it so > I have no idea what to replace it with :-( > > As Q1 is shorted across all three terminals, whatever drives it may be > damaged too :-( Does that PSU have a PWM controller IC, or is it built entirely from discretes? If there is an IC driving the chopper transistor then you may be able to get some clues about the likely characteristics of the transistor from the IC datasheet. Is it definitely a FET? Some, particularly older, designs used bipolar transistors there. As you say there is a fairly high likelihood that other components on the primary side will have blown up as well so you might be looking at a fairly extensive repair. Are there any other obscure, unmarked devices or is this the only one? p. From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Feb 5 08:32:01 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 14:32:01 +0000 Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: <20220205141748.GP1021@pbcl.net> References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <20220205141748.GP1021@pbcl.net> Message-ID: With that much carnage, I'd probably drop a Mean-Well module in there. I believe there would be enough room for one or two in the IGS I have (taller white box, divider "shelf" over the mainboard, I don't know if there was a lower profile model). Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, February 5th, 2022 at 09:17, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 06:06:10PM +0000, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > Today I finally managed to check it out. The ceramic F4A mains input fuse > > > > beside the power switch on the back panel had blown. When I opened it up, > > > > I found a POWER-ONE MAP80-4000 power supply. The main chopper transistor > > > > labelled Q1 on the PCB is almost a dead short. It is a large plastic > > > > packaged FET mounted on a piece of aluminium which is in turn screwed to > > > > the case for heatsinking. Unfortunately, there are no markings on it so > > > > I have no idea what to replace it with :-( > > > > As Q1 is shorted across all three terminals, whatever drives it may be > > > > damaged too :-( > > Does that PSU have a PWM controller IC, or is it built entirely from discretes? > > If there is an IC driving the chopper transistor then you may be able to get > > some clues about the likely characteristics of the transistor from the IC > > datasheet. Is it definitely a FET? Some, particularly older, designs used > > bipolar transistors there. > > As you say there is a fairly high likelihood that other components on the > > primary side will have blown up as well so you might be looking at a fairly > > extensive repair. Are there any other obscure, unmarked devices or is this > > the only one? > > p. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Feb 5 12:36:19 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 18:36:19 +0000 (WET) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: <20220205141748.GP1021@pbcl.net> References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S9EC1W427Q8WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> Phil Blundell wrote: > > Does that PSU have a PWM controller IC, or is it built entirely from discretes? > If there is an IC driving the chopper transistor then you may be able to get > some clues about the likely characteristics of the transistor from the IC > datasheet. > It's all discretes. There are only about five or six TO-92 thingies in there which are likely to be small signal transistors plus a few TO-220 style items mounted on the heatsink that could be drivers and/or output rectifiers. Come to think of it, I suppose a FET is unlikely to need a driver on a heatsink? > > Is it definitely a FET? Some, particularly older, designs used > bipolar transistors there. > Even though there are no markings visible on the transistor, it's marked S,D,G on the PCB! If it was a bipolar, I'd probably chance a BU208A from the TV spares box. What could go wrong :-) > > As you say there is a fairly high likelihood that other components on the > primary side will have blown up as well so you might be looking at a fairly > extensive repair. Are there any other obscure, unmarked devices or is this > the only one? I've been a bit reluctant to handle the thing much to examine it closely, between dust from the fan, stray electrolyte and heatsink compound where the internal heatsinking used to be screwed to the case, it's very messy :-( Except for the two main reservoir capacitors which seem to be sound, the other electrolytics all seem to be Nichicon units and they all seem to have leaked :-( I think lots of components are going to need to be desoldered from the board to clean it. That's going to get smelly :-( At least access is very straightforward compared to a H7821 and way better than a H7816 :-) No live heatsinks in this thing! The bridge rectifier doesn't seem to be shorted. The other heatsinked components and small signal components seem to have markings on them so it might not be too difficult to find replacements for those where needed, provided I don't manage to swipe the numbers off them when cleaning the up the leaked electrolyte... Oh, there's a couple of RIFA capacitors with cracked cases in there too but they're not input filters so no magic smoke escaped yet... Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > p. > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Feb 5 16:17:23 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 22:17:23 +0000 (WET) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <20220205141748.GP1021@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <01S9EI6PJFQ28WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> What's a "Mean-Well module"? I somehow find myself imagining: "I put a new module in my router. It blew up. At least it meant well" :-) (My IGS has the rather heavy and over-engineered divider shelf with the main board underneath and the fan and power supply above.) Regards, Peter Coghlan Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > With that much carnage, I'd probably drop a Mean-Well module in there. I > believe there would be enough room for one or two in the IGS I have > (taller white box, divider "shelf" over the mainboard, I don't know if > there was a lower profile model). > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Saturday, February 5th, 2022 at 09:17, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 06:06:10PM +0000, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Today I finally managed to check it out. The ceramic F4A mains input fuse > > > > > > beside the power switch on the back panel had blown. When I opened it up, > > > > > > I found a POWER-ONE MAP80-4000 power supply. The main chopper transistor > > > > > > labelled Q1 on the PCB is almost a dead short. It is a large plastic > > > > > > packaged FET mounted on a piece of aluminium which is in turn screwed to > > > > > > the case for heatsinking. Unfortunately, there are no markings on it so > > > > > > I have no idea what to replace it with :-( > > > > > > As Q1 is shorted across all three terminals, whatever drives it may be > > > > > > damaged too :-( > > > > Does that PSU have a PWM controller IC, or is it built entirely from discretes? > > > > If there is an IC driving the chopper transistor then you may be able to get > > > > some clues about the likely characteristics of the transistor from the IC > > > > datasheet. Is it definitely a FET? Some, particularly older, designs used > > > > bipolar transistors there. > > > > As you say there is a fairly high likelihood that other components on the > > > > primary side will have blown up as well so you might be looking at a fairly > > > > extensive repair. Are there any other obscure, unmarked devices or is this > > > > the only one? > > > > p. > From lists at glitchwrks.com Sat Feb 5 17:33:46 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 23:33:46 +0000 Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: <01S9EI6PJFQ28WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <20220205141748.GP1021@pbcl.net> <01S9EI6PJFQ28WYB2W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Mean-Well is a maker of drop in power supplies. They sell a wide variety of sizes and output configurations. The supplies are (mostly) not expensive, though not as cheap as something you might dig up on e.g. AliExpress. They also won't burn your house down :) The name is rather unfortunate. All of the big part suppliers carry them. I have had better luck hitting the Mean-Well site and figuring out what I need, then searching the model # on e.g. Mouser. Often, it is cheaper to use two modules rather than finding one do-all with the current ratings you need, but the IGS should have fairly straightforward power requirements. Sounds like we have the same kind of IGS! Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, February 5th, 2022 at 17:17, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > What's a "Mean-Well module"? I somehow find myself imagining: > > "I put a new module in my router. It blew up. At least it meant well" :-) > > (My IGS has the rather heavy and over-engineered divider shelf with the > > main board underneath and the fan and power supply above.) > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan > > Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > > With that much carnage, I'd probably drop a Mean-Well module in there. I > > > > believe there would be enough room for one or two in the IGS I have > > > > (taller white box, divider "shelf" over the mainboard, I don't know if > > > > there was a lower profile model). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jonathan > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > > > > On Saturday, February 5th, 2022 at 09:17, Phil Blundell via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 06:06:10PM +0000, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > Today I finally managed to check it out. The ceramic F4A mains input fuse > > > > > > > > beside the power switch on the back panel had blown. When I opened it up, > > > > > > > > I found a POWER-ONE MAP80-4000 power supply. The main chopper transistor > > > > > > > > labelled Q1 on the PCB is almost a dead short. It is a large plastic > > > > > > > > packaged FET mounted on a piece of aluminium which is in turn screwed to > > > > > > > > the case for heatsinking. Unfortunately, there are no markings on it so > > > > > > > > I have no idea what to replace it with :-( > > > > > > > > As Q1 is shorted across all three terminals, whatever drives it may be > > > > > > > > damaged too :-( > > > > > > Does that PSU have a PWM controller IC, or is it built entirely from discretes? > > > > > > If there is an IC driving the chopper transistor then you may be able to get > > > > > > some clues about the likely characteristics of the transistor from the IC > > > > > > datasheet. Is it definitely a FET? Some, particularly older, designs used > > > > > > bipolar transistors there. > > > > > > As you say there is a fairly high likelihood that other components on the > > > > > > primary side will have blown up as well so you might be looking at a fairly > > > > > > extensive repair. Are there any other obscure, unmarked devices or is this > > > > > > the only one? > > > > > > p. From g-wright at att.net Sat Feb 5 19:13:45 2022 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 01:13:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Odd jumpers on a XT 2190 drive. References: <297929377.159412.1644110025230.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <297929377.159412.1644110025230@mail.yahoo.com> I'm going through? a few of my ESDI? and MFM hard drives? and ran across?2 Maxtor? XT 2190 drives with? all of the Drive Id's (1-4) tie together with 1 long jumper and the drives have the write protect jumper is installed.? Not sure what theywould have been used for ??? Both are the same. Jerry From macro at orcam.me.uk Sat Feb 5 19:56:15 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 01:56:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: <01S9DVK08YHS8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S9DVK08YHS8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > This PSU seems to have been used across various Cisco devices and I had > > one fail several years ago in a WS-C1202 Ethernet/FDDI switch, also having > > suffered from leaking caps. Back then RS still had it in stock at a hefty > > price of ?489.60: , so I > > chose to recap the failed one and thanfully it has continued working ever > > since. You may try to enquire with the manufacturer. > > > > Good luck with bringing yours back to life! > > > > Thanks Maciej. I'll be surprised if the manufacturer has records of > what they used for the chopper in power supplies 30 years ago - who > knows if their design has changed between then and now. I'll be even > more suprised if they will talk to me about it but I guess it's worth > a try. I've checked their web site and they continue to offer a MAP80-4000G, which I suppose is just a minor update from the original, and is visually the same, as it seems from the datasheet dated 2021. So I'm fairly sure they have all the data. Those discrete semiconductor components do not change much, I was able to order exact replacements for another faulty device from 1990s a few years ago. They may offer you a paid repair or replacement service or if you're kind enough and they are reasonable, they may identify the single part for you. NB Mouser has the MAP80-4000G in stock actually, so if all else fails and you are determined to get the IGS running, you can pick a brand new one: . Good luck! Maciej From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 5 21:09:39 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 19:09:39 -0800 Subject: Odd jumpers on a XT 2190 drive. In-Reply-To: <297929377.159412.1644110025230@mail.yahoo.com> References: <297929377.159412.1644110025230.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <297929377.159412.1644110025230@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2276d9c7-cb8c-5812-18c3-2bdfe65e12df@sydex.com> On 2/5/22 17:13, Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > I'm going through? a few of my ESDI? and MFM hard drives? and ran across?2 Maxtor? XT 2190 drives with? all of the Drive Id's (1-4) tie together with 1 long > jumper and the drives have the write protect jumper is installed.? Not sure what theywould have been used for ??? Both are the same. > > Jerry Seems to me that this would be a read-only drive accessible on any unit. Why? Maybe holding diagnostic software? --Chuck From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Feb 6 11:20:16 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 12:20:16 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board Message-ID: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what doesn't: 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out on DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in CSR+4 or +6. 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it?? Can you open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? Doug From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 11:22:21 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 12:22:21 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> Message-ID: <70c41d76-25d4-27db-55ed-2408d062c7b2@gmail.com> The board was made by Data Translation.? There is an identical board sold by them, in the DT2x6x series but I can'r remember the exact number. Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-02-06 12:20, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to > only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what > doesn't: > > 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. > > 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. > > 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out on > DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in CSR+4 > or +6. > > 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) > or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. > > I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected > and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. > > Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it?? Can you > open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? > > Doug > From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 11:26:32 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 12:26:32 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> Message-ID: <37fd9985-50cc-1872-6d27-df974f6467ce@gmail.com> Now that I have thought a bit more, I think it was the DT2762 The board was made by Data Translation.? There is an identical board sold by them, in the DT2x6x series but I can'r remember the exact number. Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-02-06 12:20, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to > only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what > doesn't: > > 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. > > 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. > > 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out on > DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in CSR+4 > or +6. > > 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) > or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. > > I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected > and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. > > Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it?? Can you > open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? > > Doug > From jsw at ieee.org Sun Feb 6 11:33:52 2022 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 11:33:52 -0600 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> Message-ID: <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> Are you triggering an A/D conversion via the CSR or external signal?? Then check the A/D done bit. See? EK-AXV11-UG-02 Chapter 4. ?? Jerry On 2/6/22 11:20 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to > only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what > doesn't: > > 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. > > 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. > > 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out on > DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in CSR+4 > or +6. > > 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) > or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. > > I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected > and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. > > Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it?? Can you > open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? > > Doug > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Feb 6 11:41:02 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 12:41:02 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <37fd9985-50cc-1872-6d27-df974f6467ce@gmail.com> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <37fd9985-50cc-1872-6d27-df974f6467ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I have a couple of those and they are very close to the AXV11-C, except for the D/A.? They have a similar method of working.?? The A/D modules look 'identical' but I am suspicious that there are variations of these modules that aren't readily apparent. On 2/6/2022 12:26 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Now that I have thought a bit more, I think it was the DT2762 > > > > The board was made by Data Translation.? There is an identical board > sold by them, in the DT2x6x series but I can'r remember the exact number. > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:? TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2022-02-06 12:20, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to >> only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what >> doesn't: >> >> 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. >> >> 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. >> >> 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out >> on DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in >> CSR+4 or +6. >> >> 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) >> or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. >> >> I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected >> and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. >> >> Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it?? Can you >> open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? >> >> Doug >> From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Feb 6 11:43:26 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 12:43:26 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> Message-ID: <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> Yes, I am putting 1 into the CSR to start the conversion and I do get a 200(8) indicating that the conversion is complete.? I wonder if this means the A/D chip is OK but something else, like the multiplexer chip or gain amp is fried. On 2/6/2022 12:33 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: > Are you triggering an A/D conversion via the CSR or external signal?? > Then check the A/D done bit. > > See? EK-AXV11-UG-02 Chapter 4. > > ?? Jerry > > On 2/6/22 11:20 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to >> only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what >> doesn't: >> >> 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. >> >> 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. >> >> 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out >> on DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in >> CSR+4 or +6. >> >> 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) >> or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. >> >> I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected >> and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. >> >> Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it?? Can you >> open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? >> >> Doug >> From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Feb 6 12:13:22 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 13:13:22 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <37fd9985-50cc-1872-6d27-df974f6467ce@gmail.com> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <37fd9985-50cc-1872-6d27-df974f6467ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8bfefbcb-2026-91ad-81ce-d991d85c9e9f@comcast.net> I just took another look at the AXV11 board.? The A/D module has a diagram glued on top which shows the block functions of the device.? If you look close the pin numbers are listed where signals are brought out to the 36pin connector that plugs the module into the host board. I may be able to inject a signal on one of the inputs and see how far it gets.? I think I can trace it through the multiplexer, the programmable gain amp and to the sample and hold and see what the A/D chip input is. Doug On 2/6/2022 12:26 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Now that I have thought a bit more, I think it was the DT2762 > > > > The board was made by Data Translation.? There is an identical board > sold by them, in the DT2x6x series but I can'r remember the exact number. > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype:? TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2022-02-06 12:20, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to >> only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what >> doesn't: >> >> 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. >> >> 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. >> >> 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out >> on DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in >> CSR+4 or +6. >> >> 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) >> or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. >> >> I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected >> and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. >> >> Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it?? Can you >> open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? >> >> Doug >> From jsw at ieee.org Sun Feb 6 12:55:49 2022 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 12:55:49 -0600 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> Message-ID: <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> These A/D systems use methods to isolate the sensitive analog signals from the electrical noise and ground plane of the computer.? Typically a differential input is standard, so you will probably need wire up two inputs. If this is your first time with A/D, suggest you toggle in some code to trigger and report the A/D conversion repeatedly and use a small voltage battery with a potentiometer divider to drive the inputs.????? Most of the analog inputs should be high impedance and while not impervious, can take +- 30v w/o damage. ?Jerry On 2/6/22 11:43 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I am putting 1 into the CSR to start the conversion and I do get > a 200(8) indicating that the conversion is complete.? I wonder if this > means the A/D chip is OK but something else, like the multiplexer chip > or gain amp is fried. > > On 2/6/2022 12:33 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: >> Are you triggering an A/D conversion via the CSR or external signal?? >> Then check the A/D done bit. >> >> See? EK-AXV11-UG-02 Chapter 4. >> >> ?? Jerry >> >> On 2/6/22 11:20 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to >>> only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what >>> doesn't: >>> >>> 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. >>> >>> 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. >>> >>> 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out >>> on DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in >>> CSR+4 or +6. >>> >>> 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's compliment) >>> or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or shorted to gnd. >>> >>> I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly protected >>> and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. >>> >>> Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it? Can you >>> open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? >>> >>> Doug >>> > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Feb 6 17:43:31 2022 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 23:43:31 +0000 (WET) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S9DVK08YHS8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S9G1X10B6K8WYC29@beyondthepale.ie> "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: >On Sat, 5 Feb 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > This PSU seems to have been used across various Cisco devices and I had > > > one fail several years ago in a WS-C1202 Ethernet/FDDI switch, also having > > > suffered from leaking caps. Back then RS still had it in stock at a hefty > > > price of ?489.60: , so I > > > chose to recap the failed one and thanfully it has continued working ever > > > since. You may try to enquire with the manufacturer. > > > > > > Good luck with bringing yours back to life! > > > > > > > Thanks Maciej. I'll be surprised if the manufacturer has records of > > what they used for the chopper in power supplies 30 years ago - who > > knows if their design has changed between then and now. I'll be even > > more suprised if they will talk to me about it but I guess it's worth > > a try. > > I've checked their web site and they continue to offer a MAP80-4000G, > which I suppose is just a minor update from the original, and is visually > the same, as it seems from the datasheet dated 2021. So I'm fairly sure > they have all the data. Those discrete semiconductor components do not > change much, I was able to order exact replacements for another faulty > device from 1990s a few years ago. > > They may offer you a paid repair or replacement service or if you're kind > enough and they are reasonable, they may identify the single part for you. > > NB Mouser has the MAP80-4000G in stock actually, so if all else fails and > you are determined to get the IGS running, you can pick a brand new one: > . > Thanks again Maciej. I've bit the bullet and unsoldered most of the electrolytic capacitors and other components that seem to be in trouble. When I got the chopper transistor out, I found that if I hold it at exactly the right angle to the light, I can see that there are faint markings on it after all and it turns out to be an IRFPE50 HEXFET. I was wrong about the cracked RIFAs not being mains filters too, they are actually across L-E and N-E and they seem to have between a few hundred kOhms and a few MOhms leakage too. The driver transistor looks like it might be ok. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Good luck! > > Maciej From go at aerodesic.com Sun Feb 6 20:58:02 2022 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 18:58:02 -0800 Subject: DECTape head problem Message-ID: In debugging my DECtape interface lashup, I found that one of my head has two open windings.? Specifically, one channel has an open 'ground' with the other two lines apparently the full winding of the channel.? The second channel failing has no continuity between any of the three lines.? I have tested the other head and it has all the requisite continuity so I'm hoping I can at least get a single spindle running. Visual inspection of the head 'suggests' it might be caused by the age-old 'wire stress' of being captured within a polyester resin and then finally snapping due to internal stress.? I see lots of internal stress cracks on this head so I'm probably toast on this one. Are there documents on how the heads are made?? I.e. number of turns of number X wire; cap of X micros etc.? I'm not (yet) seriously entertaining the idea of rebuilding this head, but it looks pretty low tech.? These heads are Western Magnetic heads without a model number (only serial number 19976 - don't know the other head S/N as I haven't removed it yet.) And the look to be hand made... Has any ever attempted repair of one of these? -Gary From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Feb 7 03:51:59 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 04:51:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: KW11-L ON eBait Message-ID: <20220207095159.D34CF18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> https://www.ebay.com/itm/393915648077 I've already got one for my machines that take one! Noel From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Feb 7 19:31:17 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 20:31:17 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! References: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> You may recall that, a few weeks ago, I requested parts help (shopping baskets) for the Retro Chip Tester Pro that I got for Christmas. Well, today's mail brought the last few parts and I have finished and tested it. Wow! The only thing that it doesn't do is slice bread. It's great. I've put up a few pictures here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/RCTPro/ I got the 4008 and 1702 adapters with it, but I'm pretty sure that I will get the rest over the next month or so. This is the latest HW version with the latest release software. Bill S. PS: Thanks to everyone that helped with parts. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Feb 7 19:44:49 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 01:44:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! In-Reply-To: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> References: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$.ref@verizon.net> <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <576084798.437209.1644284689547@mail.yahoo.com> does it test 4004? and 8008? In a message dated 2/7/2022 6:32:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? You may recall that, a few weeks ago, I requested parts help (shoppingbaskets) for?the Retro Chip Tester Pro that I got for Christmas.? Well, today's mailbrought the last?few parts and I have finished and tested it.? Wow!? The only thing that itdoesn't do is?slice bread.? It's great.? I've put up a few pictures here:???http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/RCTPro/???I got the 4008 and 1702 adapters with it, but I'm pretty sure that I willget the rest over?the next month or so.? This is the latest HW version with the latest releasesoftware.???Bill S.???PS: Thanks to everyone that helped with parts.???-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Feb 7 20:28:50 2022 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 21:28:50 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! In-Reply-To: <576084798.437209.1644284689547@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$.ref@verizon.net> <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> <576084798.437209.1644284689547@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0d0501d81c93$9c212de0$d46389a0$@verizon.net> No, those don't seem to be in the list. But then, testing a full CPU would be a pretty tall order. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Monday, February 07, 2022 8:45 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! does it test 4004 and 8008 In a message dated 2/7/2022 6:32:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: You may recall that, a few weeks ago, I requested parts help (shoppingbaskets) for the Retro Chip Tester Pro that I got for Christmas. Well, today's mailbrought the last few parts and I have finished and tested it. Wow! The only thing that itdoesn't do is slice bread It's great. I've put up a few pictures here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/RCTPro/ I got the 4008 and 1702 adapters with it, but I'm pretty sure that I willget the rest over the next month or so. This is the latest HW version with the latest releasesoftware. Bill S. PS: Thanks to everyone that helped with parts. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 13:50:33 2022 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 14:50:33 -0500 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: Gary Oliver > Subject: DECTape head problem > > In debugging my DECtape interface lashup, I found that one of my head > has two open windings.? Specifically, one channel has an open 'ground' > with the other two lines apparently the full winding of the channel.? > The second channel failing has no continuity between any of the three > lines.? I have tested the other head and it has all the requisite > continuity so I'm hoping I can at least get a single spindle running. > > Has any ever attempted repair of one of these? > > -Gary > At the Rhode Island Computer Museum we found several DECtape heads on TU55 and TU56 drives with open connections. A volunteer got one head X-Rayed so we could see the solder joints between the tiny wires for the head coils, and the larger twinax wires that go to the relay board. We couldn't see any damage to the wires or solder joints. We tried heating the potting material to soften it, and digging it out to get to the solder joints. While digging at the potting material you can't see the tiny wires, so they will likely get damaged. We considered using a solvent to remove the potting material, but thought that it would eat the enamel off the head coil wires and damage them beyond repair. So far we haven't found a way to repair the heads. Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 14:51:25 2022 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 15:51:25 -0500 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DECtapes have 5x redundant tracks. If you could find an 8-track head that had the same track pitch, and maybe track width, you could read the tape but lose redundancy on the Mark and Timing tracks. That probably would not work with a marginal DECtape. On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 3:33 PM Wayne S wrote: > I?ve often wondered if the tape heads from consumer tape devices such as > cassette or 4-8 track tape players could be used or be made to be used as > replacements. Anybody ever try that? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Feb 7, 2022, at 11:51, Michael Thompson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ? > >> > >> > >> From: Gary Oliver > >> Subject: DECTape head problem > >> > >> In debugging my DECtape interface lashup, I found that one of my head > >> has two open windings.? Specifically, one channel has an open 'ground' > >> with the other two lines apparently the full winding of the channel.? > >> The second channel failing has no continuity between any of the three > >> lines.? I have tested the other head and it has all the requisite > >> continuity so I'm hoping I can at least get a single spindle running. > >> > >> Has any ever attempted repair of one of these? > >> > >> -Gary > >> > > > > At the Rhode Island Computer Museum we found several DECtape heads on > TU55 > > and TU56 drives with open connections. A volunteer got one head X-Rayed > so > > we could see the solder joints between the tiny wires for the head coils, > > and the larger twinax wires that go to the relay board. We couldn't see > any > > damage to the wires or solder joints. > > > > We tried heating the potting material to soften it, and digging it out to > > get to the solder joints. While digging at the potting material you can't > > see the tiny wires, so they will likely get damaged. > > > > We considered using a solvent to remove the potting material, but thought > > that it would eat the enamel off the head coil wires and damage them > beyond > > repair. > > > > So far we haven't found a way to repair the heads. > > > > Michael Thompson > -- Michael Thompson From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 7 15:09:27 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 15:09:27 -0600 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c765d84-0244-7505-a8c0-1465ffd8855b@12bitsbest.com> I wonder if there are any professional audio multi-track recorders that match the tape width, number of tracks and tack pitch and have the necessary frequency response. On 2/7/2022 3:05 PM, Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > 8 track tapes use 1/4" wide tape. Most 8 track units use heads with only > two tracks implemented. There was a stepper solenoid that moved the head > down (or up after all 4 stereo programs were played). Growing up in the > 60s you never forget things like listening to In-A-Gadda-Da_Vida fade in > the middle of the drum solo and a loud "klunk-klunk" sound and the song > resuming. > > Some true 8 track heads were made for mastering pre-recorded tapes and > maybe for consumer recorders. > > Marc > > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 12:51 PM Michael Thompson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> DECtapes have 5x redundant tracks. If you could find an 8-track head that >> had the same track pitch, and maybe track width, you could read the tape >> but lose redundancy on the Mark and Timing tracks. That probably would not >> work with a marginal DECtape. >> >> On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 3:33 PM Wayne S wrote: >> >>> I?ve often wondered if the tape heads from consumer tape devices such as >>> cassette or 4-8 track tape players could be used or be made to be used as >>> replacements. Anybody ever try that? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Feb 7, 2022, at 11:51, Michael Thompson via cctech < >>> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> ? >>>>> >>>>> From: Gary Oliver >>>>> Subject: DECTape head problem >>>>> >>>>> In debugging my DECtape interface lashup, I found that one of my head >>>>> has two open windings.? Specifically, one channel has an open 'ground' >>>>> with the other two lines apparently the full winding of the channel.? >>>>> The second channel failing has no continuity between any of the three >>>>> lines.? I have tested the other head and it has all the requisite >>>>> continuity so I'm hoping I can at least get a single spindle running. >>>>> >>>>> Has any ever attempted repair of one of these? >>>>> >>>>> -Gary >>>>> >>>> At the Rhode Island Computer Museum we found several DECtape heads on >>> TU55 >>>> and TU56 drives with open connections. A volunteer got one head X-Rayed >>> so >>>> we could see the solder joints between the tiny wires for the head >> coils, >>>> and the larger twinax wires that go to the relay board. We couldn't see >>> any >>>> damage to the wires or solder joints. >>>> >>>> We tried heating the potting material to soften it, and digging it out >> to >>>> get to the solder joints. While digging at the potting material you >> can't >>>> see the tiny wires, so they will likely get damaged. >>>> >>>> We considered using a solvent to remove the potting material, but >> thought >>>> that it would eat the enamel off the head coil wires and damage them >>> beyond >>>> repair. >>>> >>>> So far we haven't found a way to repair the heads. >>>> >>>> Michael Thompson >> >> -- >> Michael Thompson >> From go at ao-cs.com Mon Feb 7 17:04:16 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 15:04:16 -0800 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/7/22 12:48, Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > The problem would be the non-standard track size and number of tracks. > However if at least one of the head's paired tracks is good you could > potentially cut the drive current in half and double the read amplitude and > just use one track for the affected channel. > > Marc > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 12:33 PM Wayne S via cctech > wrote: > >> I?ve often wondered if the tape heads from consumer tape devices such as >> cassette or 4-8 track tape players could be used or be made to be used as >> replacements. Anybody ever try that? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Feb 7, 2022, at 11:51, Michael Thompson via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: Further, the DECTape had various track-to-track spacing.? Between the the Mark track and the first data track on both edges, the spacing is at a little less than twice that between the mark and timing tracks or between each set of data tracks.? Put a different way, the track spacing is: T.M..D.D.D.D.D.D..M.T The magnetic poles of each head is roughly 1mm wide with about .8 mm spacing heads? The '..' in the above means there is about 1.4mm spacing (between 'M and D' and 'D and M', for example - the measurements are crude, so I could be off 20% or more.) I've searched the documents I have (many from bitsavers) and haven't yet spied a specification for the head design.? I suppose if I could determine the head 'gap' and knowing the magnetic flux required of the tape (with proper margins) and knowing the stated impedance of the head and drive current, I could figure out how many turns of some size wire is required (looks to be at least as small as #40). Back when I was a bit younger and less experienced (and didn't know it was impossible,) I actually 'repaired' (for some definition of 'repair') an old 1/4 inch tape head.? But all I did was pull some wire off the coil and delicately soldered a tap to this wire.? It worked ok for a couple of years but was obviously failed again from rough handling.? Fortunately it was 'easy' since there wasn't a bunch of clear epoxy in the way ;-)? I'm not sure today I would have the temerity to even try. Hoping one will show up someday and I can make a deal as to complete my unit. Thanks to all who have replied. -Gary From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 13:34:17 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:34:17 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> Message-ID: Update on this:? I did put together a battery and voltage divider to test the AXV11.? The label on the A/D module says it brings the output from the multiplexer to one of the external pins.? I was able to verify that the voltage applied to a couple of the A/D inputs makes it through the multiplexer when selected using the CSR.? The next output available is from the Sample and Hold, and this is always pegged at +12v.? Am I wrong to assume that the sample and hold will 'freeze' its output when the A/D go bit is set? At least the D/A's work on the AXV11 I have!? Glass half full. Next tried the Data Translation DT2762 with the voltage divider source and this board appears to work correctly.? What I was able to observe was by applying different voltages to the input I see different binary values in the DBR. The manual from bitsavers for this board lists a complete Macro diagnostic program in an appendix. Does anyone have an electronic copy of this Macro code?? Or the compiled utility? Doug On 2/6/2022 1:55 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: > These A/D systems use methods to isolate the sensitive analog signals > from the electrical noise and ground plane of the computer.? Typically > a differential input is standard, so you will probably need wire up > two inputs. > > If this is your first time with A/D, suggest you toggle in some code > to trigger and report the A/D conversion repeatedly and use a small > voltage battery with a potentiometer divider to drive the inputs.????? > Most of the analog inputs should be high impedance and while not > impervious, can take +- 30v w/o damage. > > ?Jerry > > > > > On 2/6/22 11:43 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, I am putting 1 into the CSR to start the conversion and I do get >> a 200(8) indicating that the conversion is complete.? I wonder if >> this means the A/D chip is OK but something else, like the >> multiplexer chip or gain amp is fried. >> >> On 2/6/2022 12:33 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: >>> Are you triggering an A/D conversion via the CSR or external >>> signal?? Then check the A/D done bit. >>> >>> See? EK-AXV11-UG-02 Chapter 4. >>> >>> ?? Jerry >>> >>> On 2/6/22 11:20 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have one of these and would like to use it, however it appears to >>>> only partially work.? Here is what I have found that works and what >>>> doesn't: >>>> >>>> 1. CSR and DBR are present and operational. >>>> >>>> 2. Jumpers set to 'factory'. >>>> >>>> 3. D/A portion works, can deposit codes in ODT and see voltages out >>>> on DAC pins that change depending on the octal value deposited in >>>> CSR+4 or +6. >>>> >>>> 4. A/D portion returns full scale code, either 3777 (2's >>>> compliment) or 7777 (offset binary) whether in the input is open or >>>> shorted to gnd. >>>> >>>> I think the problem is that the A/D inputs are not exactly >>>> protected and damage has occurred to this portion in the past. >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any info on the A/D module?? Who made it? Can you >>>> open it up?? Does XXDP have a test for this? >>>> >>>> Doug >>>> >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 13:49:04 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:49:04 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> Message-ID: <05FA75D7-F903-43C0-BCEE-09DB0E70E7D4@comcast.net> > On Feb 8, 2022, at 2:34 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Update on this: I did put together a battery and voltage divider to test the AXV11. The label on the A/D module says it brings the output from the multiplexer to one of the external pins. I was able to verify that the voltage applied to a couple of the A/D inputs makes it through the multiplexer when selected using the CSR. The next output available is from the Sample and Hold, and this is always pegged at +12v. Am I wrong to assume that the sample and hold will 'freeze' its output when the A/D go bit is set? You're correct, a S/H circuit is supposed to hold the value that was on its input at the time it was told to take the sample. Typically it won't hold it "forever"; S/H circuits have a hold time spec chosen so it is substantially longer than the time it takes the A/D behind it to complete its measurement. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 14:07:29 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:07:29 -0500 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Feb 8, 2022, at 2:53 PM, Wayne S via cctech wrote: > > Since so many audio tape players and computer magtape units were made it would stand to reason that there has to be a stash somewhere of tape heads and it?s just a matter of finding where they are. > Are there any part numbers on the dectape heads? The schematics are bound to show DEC part numbers, but how those translate into supplier part numbers is anyone's guess. Or perhaps they were made internaly by DEC? In any case, DECtape heads are unusual. Computer tapes are normally 1/2 inch wide (a few old tape drives had different widths, like the 14 track 1 inch CDC tape). But DECtape and LINCtape are 3/4 inches wide, with 10 head positions. Audio tapes are unlikely to be helpful; consumer reel to reel tape is 2 tracks (interleaved for when you flip over the reel?) 1/4 inch; professional decks might have 8 tracks or more on 1/2 or 1 or 2 inch wide tape, but I don't remember ever seeing 3/4 inch wide audio or instrumentation heads. paul From steve at oldcomputers.net Tue Feb 8 14:19:15 2022 From: steve at oldcomputers.net (Oldcompu) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 12:19:15 -0800 Subject: Anyone live in Minneapolis? Message-ID: <29BEA2BC-2201-4450-A2B1-2E99C7649095@oldcomputers.net> There are some vintage tablets in Minneapolis (Eden Prarire) that would like, but the seller will not ship. Any help? You will have to pay, pick up, and ship. I would do it for you! Thanks- Steve in CA From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 15:35:33 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:35:33 -0800 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have any info on the A/D module? Who made it? Can you open > it up? Does XXDP have a test for this? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf PDP11 DIAGNOSTIC HANDBOOK 1988, Page A-7: VAXAB0.BIC ADV11-C/AXV11-C A/D CONVERTER TEST From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 8 16:10:46 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 17:10:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone live in Minneapolis? Message-ID: <20220208221046.AACCD18C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steve at oldcomputers.net > There are some vintage tablets in Minneapolis (Eden Prarire) that would > like, but the seller will not ship. > Any help? When dealing with eBaiters who can't/won't ship, I have had good luck with PakMail (http://www.pakmail.com/); for a usually reasonable fee, they will go pick something up, package it properly, and ship it. In my experience with them, the shipping cost may not have been the absolute lowest possible I could have secured had I been on the spot, looking around, but.. I wasn't on the spot, looking around. And they went to the person's house, picked the thing up, and shipped it. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 8 16:22:19 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 16:22:19 -0600 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> Message-ID: <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> On 2/8/22 13:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Update on this:? I did put together a battery and voltage > divider to test the AXV11.? The label on the A/D module > says it brings the output from the multiplexer to one of > the external pins.? I was able to verify that the voltage > applied to a couple of the A/D inputs makes it through the > multiplexer when selected using the CSR.? The next output > available is from the Sample and Hold, and this is always > pegged at +12v.? Am I wrong to assume that the sample and > hold will 'freeze' its output when the A/D go bit is set? Well, it will probably only hold the approximate voltage for a few seconds, but should be long enough to see on a voltmeter. Jon From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 16:35:41 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 17:35:41 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2/8/2022 5:22 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 2/8/22 13:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Update on this:? I did put together a battery and voltage divider to >> test the AXV11.? The label on the A/D module says it brings the >> output from the multiplexer to one of the external pins.? I was able >> to verify that the voltage applied to a couple of the A/D inputs >> makes it through the multiplexer when selected using the CSR.? The >> next output available is from the Sample and Hold, and this is always >> pegged at +12v.? Am I wrong to assume that the sample and hold will >> 'freeze' its output when the A/D go bit is set? > > Well, it will probably only hold the approximate voltage for a few > seconds, but should be long enough to see on a voltmeter. > > Jon > I was only using a voltmeter to look at it. I'm going to try 2 different measurements; (1) use a scope to look at the S&H signal on the AXV11 and see what it does over time, (2) look at the same S&H signal on the Data Translation board which seems to be working. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Feb 8 18:36:19 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 18:36:19 -0600 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2/8/22 16:35, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 2/8/2022 5:22 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 2/8/22 13:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> Update on this:? I did put together a battery and >>> voltage divider to test the AXV11.? The label on the A/D >>> module says it brings the output from the multiplexer to >>> one of the external pins.? I was able to verify that the >>> voltage applied to a couple of the A/D inputs makes it >>> through the multiplexer when selected using the CSR.? >>> The next output available is from the Sample and Hold, >>> and this is always pegged at +12v.? Am I wrong to assume >>> that the sample and hold will 'freeze' its output when >>> the A/D go bit is set? >> >> Well, it will probably only hold the approximate voltage >> for a few seconds, but should be long enough to see on a >> voltmeter. >> >> Jon >> > I was only using a voltmeter to look at it. > > I'm going to try 2 different measurements; (1) use a scope > to look at the S&H signal on the AXV11 and see what it > does over time, (2) look at the same S&H signal on the > Data Translation board which seems to be working. > The S&H will likely have a FET as the switch element, and those might be fairly easily damaged by external pulses.? I opened up some comparable Xincom modules and made minor repairs. Jon From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 8 19:18:32 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 01:18:32 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS Message-ID: <60567420-69b8-6607-d0d3-fe7e87022584@btinternet.com> Hi ???????? Jerry Walker and I have an 11/34 under restoration. We have run into a bit of a problem. On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. Does anybody have or can get images of the PROMs on this board so replacement devices an be programmed. Rod From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 8 20:04:11 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 19:04:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS In-Reply-To: <60567420-69b8-6607-d0d3-fe7e87022584@btinternet.com> References: <60567420-69b8-6607-d0d3-fe7e87022584@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I found https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ which has the source code... But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode images. http://filedump.theglitchworks.net/software/vintage/dec/roms/bdv11_upgrade/ has a number of ROM images. Don't know if they are the ones you want. What are the XX-XXXXX-XX numbers on the PROMs you are looking for? Warner On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi > > Jerry Walker and I have an 11/34 under restoration. > > We have run into a bit of a problem. > > On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a > bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. > > Does anybody have or can get images of the PROMs on this board so > replacement devices an be programmed. > > Rod > > > From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 8 20:25:04 2022 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 18:25:04 -0800 Subject: Need 8mm or DLT-II tape? References: <8c1f7ee2faa236d59b3c7bc0c67d98fb6f4cfcee.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <8c1f7ee2faa236d59b3c7bc0c67d98fb6f4cfcee.camel@sbcglobal.net> I have many 8mm tapes. A few are new. First comers get new ones. I have a few 8mm cleaning cassettes I have about a dozen DLT-II tapes. I have a Quantum DLT-II drive with wide SCSI LVD/SE interface I have some Ultrium LTO fibre-channel SCSI drives that were removed from a tape-mounting robot several years ago. I never used them in my computers. The mounting bracket for one was modified to have an internal power supply -- which might be inadequate. ?I have one LTO tape. I have a 5.25" floppy drive. Yours for the price of shipping, or local pickup OK. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net La Crescenta, CA From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 8 20:35:06 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 19:35:06 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS In-Reply-To: References: <60567420-69b8-6607-d0d3-fe7e87022584@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: > I found > https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ > which has the source code... > > But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode > images. > There's a small chance that the tools.tar.gz link on http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ has these, but that's for a different module so who knows... > http://filedump.theglitchworks.net/software/vintage/dec/roms/bdv11_upgrade/ > has a number of ROM images. Don't know if they are the ones you want. What > are the XX-XXXXX-XX numbers on the PROMs you are looking for? > > Warner > > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Jerry Walker and I have an 11/34 under restoration. >> >> We have run into a bit of a problem. >> >> On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a >> bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. >> >> Does anybody have or can get images of the PROMs on this board so >> replacement devices an be programmed. >> >> Rod >> >> >> From amp1ron at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 15:04:55 2022 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 16:04:55 -0500 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> > So it sermsdectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that time? Does anyone know? A photo of the back of a TU56 DECtape head can be seen at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/head_label.shtml?small . The head has a label on it that reads: Western Magnetics Glendale Calif. Record 7282 I've never seen a TU56 in person and have no idea if they have separate read, write, and erase heads or some other combo. The "Record" notation on the above head's label hints to me this might be a write head. I found that and other DECtape photos at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/tu56.shtml . -- Ron From go at ao-cs.com Tue Feb 8 15:18:17 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:18:17 -0800 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/8/22 13:04, Ron Pool via cctech wrote: >> So it sermsdectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that time? Does anyone know? > A photo of the back of a TU56 DECtape head can be seen at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/head_label.shtml?small . > The head has a label on it that reads: > Western Magnetics > Glendale Calif. > Record > 7282 > > I've never seen a TU56 in person and have no idea if they have separate read, write, and erase heads or some other combo. The "Record" notation on the above head's label hints to me this might be a write head. > > I found that and other DECtape photos at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/tu56.shtml . > > -- Ron > Mine also says Western Magnetics, Glendale CA, but does not have a part number.? Just serial numbers.? At least I assume they are serial numbers "19984" and "19976". I've seen evidence that a few souls in the 50s managed to make magnetic heads from scratch (heck, Ivan Sutherland is claimed to have made a functioning magnet drum storage device when he was in 12th grade,) so give the modern world of CNC milling and availability of every manner of sheet metal via Internet searchers, I figured their just *might* be a possibility of growing one of these from scratch - tolerances (other than head gap) appear pretty generous, but I just don't have enough info to crack what the coil construction is to be.? There may be enough information to do a stab at it, but I'm not sure I have the energy (or even the skill) to give it a credible effort. I've seen evidence of 'head repair' services, but I doubt they include digging out the wires from solid epoxy. Any information available would be appreciated. -Gary -- -Gary From go at aerodesic.com Tue Feb 8 15:19:37 2022 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:19:37 -0800 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49542606-c631-e3cf-11d4-dc71faa43cc8@aerodesic.com> On 2/8/22 13:04, Ron Pool via cctech wrote: >> So it sermsdectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that time? Does anyone know? > A photo of the back of a TU56 DECtape head can be seen at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/head_label.shtml?small . > The head has a label on it that reads: > Western Magnetics > Glendale Calif. > Record > 7282 > > I've never seen a TU56 in person and have no idea if they have separate read, write, and erase heads or some other combo. The "Record" notation on the above head's label hints to me this might be a write head. > > I found that and other DECtape photos at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/tu56.shtml . > > -- Ron > Mine also says Western Magnetics, Glendale CA, but does not have a part number.? Just serial numbers.? At least I assume they are serial numbers "19984" and "19976". I've seen evidence that a few souls in the 50s managed to make magnetic heads from scratch (heck, Ivan Sutherland is claimed to have made a functioning magnet drum storage device when he was in 12th grade,) so give the modern world of CNC milling and availability of every manner of sheet metal via Internet searchers, I figured their just *might* be a possibility of growing one of these from scratch - tolerances (other than head gap) appear pretty generous, but I just don't have enough info to crack what the coil construction is to be.? There may be enough information to do a stab at it, but I'm not sure I have the energy (or even the skill) to give it a credible effort. I've seen evidence of 'head repair' services, but I doubt they include digging out the wires from solid epoxy. Any information available would be appreciated. -Gary From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 15:49:51 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 16:49:51 -0500 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> > On Feb 8, 2022, at 4:04 PM, Ron Pool via cctech wrote: > >> So it sermsdectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that time? Does anyone know? > > A photo of the back of a TU56 DECtape head can be seen at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/head_label.shtml?small . > The head has a label on it that reads: > Western Magnetics > Glendale Calif. > Record > 7282 > > I've never seen a TU56 in person and have no idea if they have separate read, write, and erase heads or some other combo. The "Record" notation on the above head's label hints to me this might be a write head. > > I found that and other DECtape photos at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/tu56.shtml . This picture https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/TU56_front.shtml?large shows the tape path clearly. There is just one head assembly that performs reading as well as writing. I don't know what "Record" refers to; the numbers near it look vaguely like a date code though not the usual year and week number. The maintenance manual (on Bitsavers) speaks of a "read/write head" and has an illustration that shows one of the head elements with a "read/write coil". So the implication is that (a) there isn't an erase head, and (b) the same head serves for read or write according to whether the coil is being driven or sensed. Come to think of it, I think erase heads are an aspect of audio tapes, not relevant to computer tapes. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 16:22:27 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 17:22:27 -0500 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A70935E-07A0-4E55-9AD9-04AB2CB80D8B@comcast.net> > On Feb 8, 2022, at 5:14 PM, Wayne S via cctech wrote: > > Searched a lille bit for Western Magnetics. Here?s a site that has some surplus heads, even a western magnetics onebut probably not the correct one. There is a corporate charter record for Western Magnetics in Minnesota dated 1964. Maybe this is the same company. There?s also a tape head from Michigan Magnetics. Maybe a merged company? > > https://www.surplussales.com/Equipment/magnetic-tape.html Those all look like audio heads, nothing even vaguely resembling a DECtape head. paul From go at ao-cs.com Tue Feb 8 16:44:30 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:44:30 -0800 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b0530f3-efd8-8ba9-4ee1-b02313505ece@ao-cs.com> On 2/8/22 14:14, Wayne S via cctech wrote: > Searched a lille bit for Western Magnetics. Here?s a site that has some surplus heads, even a western magnetics onebut probably not the correct one. There is a corporate charter record for Western Magnetics in Minnesota dated 1964. Maybe this is the same company. There?s also a tape head from Michigan Magnetics. Maybe a merged company? > > https://www.surplussales.com/Equipment/magnetic-tape.html > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 8, 2022, at 13:05, Ron Pool via cctech wrote: > > ? > So it sermsdectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that time? Does anyone know? > > A photo of the back of a TU56 DECtape head can be seen at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/head_label.shtml?small . > The head has a label on it that reads: > Western Magnetics > Glendale Calif. > Record > 7282 > > I've never seen a TU56 in person and have no idea if they have separate read, write, and erase heads or some other combo. The "Record" notation on the above head's label hints to me this might be a write head. > > I found that and other DECtape photos at https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/tu56.shtml . > > -- Ron > > Thanks.? Hadn't seen the Minnesota information.? Found some references but not actual company info.? Did find a reference somewhere it Canada, but I couldn't tell if it was original or successor company.? At any rate, no web presence nor telephone numbers found (yet.) I've dealt with the SurplusSales (of Nebraska) many times.? His prices are usually pretty high (not obscene, but just not 'surplus' prices I'm used to.)? However, he is a first-rate dealer and when he says something is so, you can count on it.? Never had problem with anything I was willing to *PAY* for.? I scanned the list you provided and found only a few 'digital' devices, unfortunately.? I suspect from 7 and 9 track mag tape drives.? I will scan his site and send him a ping so he'll be on? the lookout. -Gary From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 01:25:55 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 15:25:55 +0800 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: <5b0530f3-efd8-8ba9-4ee1-b02313505ece@ao-cs.com> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <5b0530f3-efd8-8ba9-4ee1-b02313505ece@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: You could try: http://www.jrfmagnetics.com/ Tom On Wed, Feb 9, 2022 at 3:06 PM Gary Oliver via cctalk wrote: > On 2/8/22 14:14, Wayne S via cctech wrote: > > Searched a lille bit for Western Magnetics. Here?s a site that has some > surplus heads, even a western magnetics onebut probably not the correct > one. There is a corporate charter record for Western Magnetics in Minnesota > dated 1964. Maybe this is the same company. There?s also a tape head from > Michigan Magnetics. Maybe a merged company? > > > > https://www.surplussales.com/Equipment/magnetic-tape.html > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Feb 8, 2022, at 13:05, Ron Pool via cctech > wrote: > > > > ? > > So it sermsdectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the > desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company > already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that > time? Does anyone know? > > > > A photo of the back of a TU56 DECtape head can be seen at > https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/head_label.shtml?small . > > The head has a label on it that reads: > > Western Magnetics > > Glendale Calif. > > Record > > 7282 > > > > I've never seen a TU56 in person and have no idea if they have separate > read, write, and erase heads or some other combo. The "Record" notation on > the above head's label hints to me this might be a write head. > > > > I found that and other DECtape photos at > https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/tu56.shtml . > > > > -- Ron > > > > > Thanks. Hadn't seen the Minnesota information. Found some references > but not actual company info. Did find a reference somewhere it Canada, > but I couldn't tell if it was original or successor company. At any > rate, no web presence nor telephone numbers found (yet.) > > I've dealt with the SurplusSales (of Nebraska) many times. His prices > are usually pretty high (not obscene, but just not 'surplus' prices I'm > used to.) However, he is a first-rate dealer and when he says something > is so, you can count on it. Never had problem with anything I was > willing to *PAY* for. I scanned the list you provided and found only a > few 'digital' devices, unfortunately. I suspect from 7 and 9 track mag > tape drives. I will scan his site and send him a ping so he'll be on > the lookout. > > -Gary > > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 01:25:55 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 15:25:55 +0800 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: <5b0530f3-efd8-8ba9-4ee1-b02313505ece@ao-cs.com> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <5b0530f3-efd8-8ba9-4ee1-b02313505ece@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: You could try: http://www.jrfmagnetics.com/ Tom On Wed, Feb 9, 2022 at 3:06 PM Gary Oliver via cctalk wrote: > On 2/8/22 14:14, Wayne S via cctech wrote: > > Searched a lille bit for Western Magnetics. Here?s a site that has some > surplus heads, even a western magnetics onebut probably not the correct > one. There is a corporate charter record for Western Magnetics in Minnesota > dated 1964. Maybe this is the same company. There?s also a tape head from > Michigan Magnetics. Maybe a merged company? > > > > https://www.surplussales.com/Equipment/magnetic-tape.html > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Feb 8, 2022, at 13:05, Ron Pool via cctech > wrote: > > > > ? > > So it sermsdectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the > desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company > already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that > time? Does anyone know? > > > > A photo of the back of a TU56 DECtape head can be seen at > https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/head_label.shtml?small . > > The head has a label on it that reads: > > Western Magnetics > > Glendale Calif. > > Record > > 7282 > > > > I've never seen a TU56 in person and have no idea if they have separate > read, write, and erase heads or some other combo. The "Record" notation on > the above head's label hints to me this might be a write head. > > > > I found that and other DECtape photos at > https://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/tu56.shtml . > > > > -- Ron > > > > > Thanks. Hadn't seen the Minnesota information. Found some references > but not actual company info. Did find a reference somewhere it Canada, > but I couldn't tell if it was original or successor company. At any > rate, no web presence nor telephone numbers found (yet.) > > I've dealt with the SurplusSales (of Nebraska) many times. His prices > are usually pretty high (not obscene, but just not 'surplus' prices I'm > used to.) However, he is a first-rate dealer and when he says something > is so, you can count on it. Never had problem with anything I was > willing to *PAY* for. I scanned the list you provided and found only a > few 'digital' devices, unfortunately. I suspect from 7 and 9 track mag > tape drives. I will scan his site and send him a ping so he'll be on > the lookout. > > -Gary > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Feb 9 08:02:50 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 09:02:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS Message-ID: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a >>> bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. That's pretty astonishing; I've heard of PROMs dropping bits over time, but I'm a bit amazed to hear of a failure in a TTL gate (the 74S04 is a hex inverter; its gates are on pg. 7 of the M8266 prints - they produce uPC03-08) taking out a bunch of other gates connected to it. >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: >> I found >> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ >> which has the source code... >> >> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode >> images. Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was dumping was. It might be worth inquiring of Mike Douglas (he runs the DeRamp site) to find out where the files in "mfe_archive" came from; perhaps the source has, or knows of, the file which "m8266_ucode.out.txt" was a symbolic dump of - maybe from a complete KD11-EA simulation in VHDL? If that's not possible,it would be trivial to extract the PROM contents (well, partial contents - see below) from the "m8266_ucode.out.txt" file; each uword entry starts with the lines: ***** PDP-11/34a micro code word for MPC = 000 ***** (MSB is left, indented fields generated by expansion ROMs) micro word........ = 0000 0111 1100 0000 1100 1000 1010 0001 0000 0000 1110 0000 from ROM: E105 E103 E104 E100 E98 E97 E99 E106 E107 E108 E109 E110 The address of each uword is the "MPC = xxx" line; the contents of the 12 PROMs, at that address, are given on the "micro word........ = " line (the PROMs are 4 bits wide). If someone explained what format they needed as input for burning new PROMs, I could easily (like an hour) write a small portable program (using StdIO only, so it could be compiled and run on _anything_) that read that file in, and spat out the 12 PROM files. (Most of the dump could be ignored - all the data that's needed is in that one line.) BUT (and this is why it would be good to get back to the source of that file), that's not a complete M8266 ucode PROM dump. The KD11-EA has a uword address space 1 bit larger than the KD11-E - almost certainly to support floating point instructions; the KD11-EA adds 'uPC 09' (although looking its source at the top of pg. 7 of the prints, I don't quite grok how it is generated - maybe it's fed back through J2 from the FP11-A when one is plugged in). Anyway, uword addresses run up to 02000 in the KD11-EA, and the last uword in that dump is 0777. Interestingly, according to the flow charts of the 'basic' KD11-E/EA ucode in the prints (indexed and annotated here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-E/EA_microcode in full), they stop at 0757 - but the dump (in "m8266_ucode.out.txt") contains uwords that are 'supposed' to be blank (per the flow charts), as well as above 0757. So that dump must have been prepared from a copy of the 'new' KD11-EA PROMs - the ones including the floating point ucode. (Note that the FP11-A _also_ contains ucode, intended to control the stuff on the FP11-A; but the floating point instructions _also_ use the KD11-A for some stuff - e.g. fetching operands from main memory. Only the ucode address space is shared.) > From: Warner Losh > There's a small chance that the tools.tar.gz link on > http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ has these, but that's for a > different module so who knows. Right, a _completely_ different card - a boot PROM, not a CPU; totally un-related - and by a different person (Don North). But just for completeness, I looked in "tools.tar.gz", and it's just bootstrap PROM stuff. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Feb 9 09:20:38 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 09:20:38 -0600 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> On 2/8/22 15:49, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> The maintenance manual (on Bitsavers) speaks of a "read/write head" and has an illustration that shows one of the head elements with a "read/write coil". So the implication is that (a) there isn't an erase head, and (b) the same head serves for read or write according to whether the coil is being driven or sensed. Yes, that is right. >> Come to think of it, I think erase heads are an aspect of audio tapes, not relevant to computer tapes. No, all 9-track drives that I know of have erase heads that erase the tape to a no-transitions state before it is written on.? This allows you to obliterate old data when writing a new record, and leave gaps between records.? Since DecTape was synchronized by clock and mark tracks, that was not needed. Jon From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Feb 9 10:11:12 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 10:11:12 -0600 Subject: DEC Tape TU56 head pictures In-Reply-To: <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I am in the process or restoring a TU56 so it's in pieces.? Pictures of the head were requested so here they are. These were taken with my phone so the quality is only mediocre. This, like the rest of the drive, is in the process of being restored. I'm still not sure how to clean the front of the head where the tape touches the head.? Any ideas? The pics are big so here is a link to the pic: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jwG4EZPd1bvNZLNWQ99ZDS42twq6Cf-a?usp=sharing From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 9 11:23:06 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 12:23:06 -0500 Subject: DEC Tape TU56 head pictures In-Reply-To: References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <735CBD14-B316-4043-9E86-4D886C37E414@comcast.net> > On Feb 9, 2022, at 11:11 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I am in the process or restoring a TU56 so it's in pieces. Pictures of the head were requested so here they are. > > These were taken with my phone so the quality is only mediocre. > > This, like the rest of the drive, is in the process of being restored. > > I'm still not sure how to clean the front of the head where the tape touches the head. Any ideas? We always used isopropyl alcohol (91% or better). paul From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Feb 9 11:35:34 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:35:34 -0600 Subject: DEC Tape TU56 head pictures In-Reply-To: <735CBD14-B316-4043-9E86-4D886C37E414@comcast.net> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> <735CBD14-B316-4043-9E86-4D886C37E414@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4cab36f2-50db-5969-dcfb-6ff2354cb699@12bitsbest.com> What about corrosion or calcification or whatever that crusty stuff is on the heads. I used 3M Scotchbrite to clean the sides. On 2/9/2022 11:23 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Feb 9, 2022, at 11:11 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> I am in the process or restoring a TU56 so it's in pieces. Pictures of the head were requested so here they are. >> >> These were taken with my phone so the quality is only mediocre. >> >> This, like the rest of the drive, is in the process of being restored. >> >> I'm still not sure how to clean the front of the head where the tape touches the head. Any ideas? > We always used isopropyl alcohol (91% or better). > > paul > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 9 12:11:54 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 18:11:54 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS In-Reply-To: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi ?Thank you all for your kind and quick replies. I am sure somebody will come up with the actual images either the original files or derived from what we have. As the key to the function of the 11/34 CPU their addition to the body of informatio they will be of imense benefit to us all. Rod On 09/02/2022 14:02, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood wrote: > > >>> On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a > >>> bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. > > That's pretty astonishing; I've heard of PROMs dropping bits over time, but > I'm a bit amazed to hear of a failure in a TTL gate (the 74S04 is a hex > inverter; its gates are on pg. 7 of the M8266 prints - they produce uPC03-08) > taking out a bunch of other gates connected to it. > > > >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > >> I found > >> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ > >> which has the source code... > >> > >> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode > >> images. > > Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that > produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) > > It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't > seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL > file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was > dumping was. > > It might be worth inquiring of Mike Douglas (he runs the DeRamp site) to find > out where the files in "mfe_archive" came from; perhaps the source has, or > knows of, the file which "m8266_ucode.out.txt" was a symbolic dump of - maybe > from a complete KD11-EA simulation in VHDL? > > If that's not possible,it would be trivial to extract the PROM contents > (well, partial contents - see below) from the "m8266_ucode.out.txt" file; > each uword entry starts with the lines: > > ***** PDP-11/34a micro code word for MPC = 000 ***** > (MSB is left, indented fields generated by expansion ROMs) > micro word........ = 0000 0111 1100 0000 1100 1000 1010 0001 0000 0000 1110 0000 > from ROM: E105 E103 E104 E100 E98 E97 E99 E106 E107 E108 E109 E110 > > The address of each uword is the "MPC = xxx" line; the contents of the 12 > PROMs, at that address, are given on the "micro word........ = " line (the > PROMs are 4 bits wide). > > If someone explained what format they needed as input for burning new PROMs, > I could easily (like an hour) write a small portable program (using StdIO > only, so it could be compiled and run on _anything_) that read that file in, > and spat out the 12 PROM files. (Most of the dump could be ignored - all the > data that's needed is in that one line.) > > > BUT (and this is why it would be good to get back to the source of that file), > that's not a complete M8266 ucode PROM dump. > > The KD11-EA has a uword address space 1 bit larger than the KD11-E - almost > certainly to support floating point instructions; the KD11-EA adds 'uPC 09' > (although looking its source at the top of pg. 7 of the prints, I don't quite > grok how it is generated - maybe it's fed back through J2 from the FP11-A when > one is plugged in). Anyway, uword addresses run up to 02000 in the KD11-EA, > and the last uword in that dump is 0777. > > Interestingly, according to the flow charts of the 'basic' KD11-E/EA ucode in > the prints (indexed and annotated here: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-E/EA_microcode > > in full), they stop at 0757 - but the dump (in "m8266_ucode.out.txt") > contains uwords that are 'supposed' to be blank (per the flow charts), > as well as above 0757. > > So that dump must have been prepared from a copy of the 'new' KD11-EA PROMs - > the ones including the floating point ucode. (Note that the FP11-A _also_ > contains ucode, intended to control the stuff on the FP11-A; but the floating > point instructions _also_ use the KD11-A for some stuff - e.g. fetching > operands from main memory. Only the ucode address space is shared.) > > > > From: Warner Losh > > > There's a small chance that the tools.tar.gz link on > > http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ has these, but that's for a > > different module so who knows. > > Right, a _completely_ different card - a boot PROM, not a CPU; totally > un-related - and by a different person (Don North). > > But just for completeness, I looked in "tools.tar.gz", and it's just > bootstrap PROM stuff. > > Noel From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 12:54:00 2022 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:54:00 -0500 Subject: DECTape head problem Message-ID: > > > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 20:55:31 +0000 > From: Wayne S > Subject: Re: DECTape head problem > > So it serms dectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the > desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company > already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that > time? Does anyone know? > We have one from Applied Magnetics Corporation, maybe the one in Goleta, CA. -- Michael Thompson From go at ao-cs.com Wed Feb 9 13:16:36 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:16:36 -0800 Subject: DECTape head problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/9/22 10:54, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> >> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 20:55:31 +0000 >> From: Wayne S >> Subject: Re: DECTape head problem >> >> So it serms dectape heads are special. I don?t think Dec would have the >> desire to make them internally so they probably contractef with a company >> already set up to do that. Who were the big tape head manufacturers at that >> time? Does anyone know? >> > We have one from Applied Magnetics Corporation, maybe the one in Goleta, CA. > I can't find them.? Lots of lost info (even Bloomberg has info, but the web site listed goes to a parking 'for sale' page.) Documents suggest they "merged out" in 1987 (but no pointers to who gobbled them up.) I have sent a request for information from jrfmagnetics.com (thanks Tom!) and will see what they say.? It's seems they are still 'lingering' in the head repair business, so it's remotely possible they could do a repair job. Thanks all. If anyone has a working head they aren't using, I'd entertain an offer... :-) -Gary From gavin at learn.bio Wed Feb 9 14:44:30 2022 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 14:44:30 -0600 Subject: DEC Tape TU56 head pictures In-Reply-To: References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 9, 2022 at 10:11 AM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I'm still not sure how to clean the front of the head where the tape > touches the head. Any ideas? Back in the day there was "Tape Head Cleaner" Which was a little tin of trichlorotrifluoroethane (a.k.a. Freon 113) where you screwed the cap off and it had a rod with a fluffy ball on the end inside, and you would slather that all over the heads of 9-track tape drives etc. It evaporated almost instantly. Of course after evaporating it floated up and destroyed the ozone layer, so probably not super obtainable these days. A search for "Tape Head Cleaner" suggests there are similar modern formulations used for HiFi equipment etc. that might be applicable. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 9 15:46:53 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 13:46:53 -0800 Subject: DEC Tape TU56 head pictures In-Reply-To: References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <48f78b5f-d809-1bc0-062e-7c23b55f0019@sydex.com> On 2/9/22 12:44, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Feb 9, 2022 at 10:11 AM Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: >> I'm still not sure how to clean the front of the head where the tape >> touches the head. Any ideas? > > Back in the day there was "Tape Head Cleaner" Which was a little tin > of trichlorotrifluoroethane (a.k.a. Freon 113) where you screwed the > cap off and it had a rod with a fluffy ball on the end inside, and you > would slather that all over the heads of 9-track tape drives etc. It > evaporated almost instantly. Of course after evaporating it floated up > and destroyed the ozone layer, so probably not super obtainable these > days. > > A search for "Tape Head Cleaner" suggests there are similar modern > formulations used for HiFi equipment etc. that might be applicable. I find that perchloroethylene works to get stubborn tape-head deposits cleaned up. Can be found in some formulations of brake cleaner as well as the usual dry-cleaning solvent. Nonflammable, but somewhat toxic, so use in a well-ventilated area. Not really plastic-safe, so use sparingly. Also makes a great solder flux remover from PCBs. --Chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Feb 9 16:11:29 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 16:11:29 -0600 Subject: DEC Tape TU56 head pictures In-Reply-To: <48f78b5f-d809-1bc0-062e-7c23b55f0019@sydex.com> References: <002801d81d2f$862f39e0$928dada0$@gmail.com> <78ADAB06-601C-411F-86FE-EFE28723102A@comcast.net> <750ad121-837e-c20e-35a2-f028d99bdbf4@pico-systems.com> <48f78b5f-d809-1bc0-062e-7c23b55f0019@sydex.com> Message-ID: Thank you. On 2/9/2022 3:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 2/9/22 12:44, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 9, 2022 at 10:11 AM Mike Katz via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I'm still not sure how to clean the front of the head where the tape >>> touches the head. Any ideas? >> Back in the day there was "Tape Head Cleaner" Which was a little tin >> of trichlorotrifluoroethane (a.k.a. Freon 113) where you screwed the >> cap off and it had a rod with a fluffy ball on the end inside, and you >> would slather that all over the heads of 9-track tape drives etc. It >> evaporated almost instantly. Of course after evaporating it floated up >> and destroyed the ozone layer, so probably not super obtainable these >> days. >> >> A search for "Tape Head Cleaner" suggests there are similar modern >> formulations used for HiFi equipment etc. that might be applicable. > I find that perchloroethylene works to get stubborn tape-head deposits > cleaned up. Can be found in some formulations of brake cleaner as well > as the usual dry-cleaning solvent. Nonflammable, but somewhat toxic, > so use in a well-ventilated area. Not really plastic-safe, so use > sparingly. Also makes a great solder flux remover from PCBs. > > --Chuck From cclist at sytse.net Wed Feb 9 17:14:22 2022 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 00:14:22 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS In-Reply-To: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7B3C7D51-C8A7-4787-BE44-FA2CF100E4D6@sytse.net> >>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: > >>> I found >>> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ >>> which has the source code... >>> >>> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode >>> images. > > Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that > produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) > > It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't > seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL > file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was > dumping was. It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight binary format, I'd guess. I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which seems to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in Verilog. Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using that microcode in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 to run it unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of the project - since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to assume it got stuck somewhere along the way. Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something similar but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is microcode compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 that's 'only' functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the same way I would start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... If anyone has them and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) Cheers Sytse From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 9 18:16:31 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 00:16:31 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS In-Reply-To: <7B3C7D51-C8A7-4787-BE44-FA2CF100E4D6@sytse.net> References: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B3C7D51-C8A7-4787-BE44-FA2CF100E4D6@sytse.net> Message-ID: <33cc1e2a-43e0-5777-ce47-230c08edfe0a@btinternet.com> Hi ??? We have narrowed the problem down. Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. The images of those are whats needed. Regards Rod On 09/02/2022 23:14, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: >>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: >>>> I found >>>> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ >>>> which has the source code... >>>> >>>> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode >>>> images. >> Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that >> produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) >> >> It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't >> seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL >> file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was >> dumping was. > It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight binary format, I'd guess. > > I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which seems to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in Verilog. Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using that microcode in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 to run it unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of the project - since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to assume it got stuck somewhere along the way. > > Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something similar but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is microcode compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 that's 'only' functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the same way I would start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... If anyone has them and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) > > Cheers > Sytse > > From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Feb 9 18:34:33 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 17:34:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS In-Reply-To: <33cc1e2a-43e0-5777-ce47-230c08edfe0a@btinternet.com> References: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B3C7D51-C8A7-4787-BE44-FA2CF100E4D6@sytse.net> <33cc1e2a-43e0-5777-ce47-230c08edfe0a@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 9, 2022, 5:16 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > We have narrowed the problem down. > > Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. > > The images of those are whats needed. > Do those chips have ROM numbers on them? 23-xxxxx is the usual format... Warner Regards Rod > > > On 09/02/2022 23:14, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: > >>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: > >>>> I found > >>>> > https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ > >>>> which has the source code... > >>>> > >>>> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode > >>>> images. > >> Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the > program that > >> produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: > >> > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) > >> > >> It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it > doesn't > >> seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL > >> file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it > was > >> dumping was. > > It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed > the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight binary > format, I'd guess. > > > > I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which seems > to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in Verilog. > Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using that microcode > in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 to run it > unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of the project - > since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to assume it got stuck > somewhere along the way. > > > > Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something similar > but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is microcode > compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 that's 'only' > functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the same way I would > start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... If anyone has them > and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) > > > > Cheers > > Sytse > > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 10 11:11:44 2022 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 17:11:44 +0000 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! In-Reply-To: <576084798.437209.1644284689547@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$.ref@verizon.net> <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> <576084798.437209.1644284689547@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I hope you are not thinking it would test an Intel 4004 or a 8008? That would be a stretch. For the 4004, there is only a narrow range of frequencies it runs under. I'm not that familiar with the 8008 but suspect it has similar restrictions. Both use dynamic registers. Both use PMOS voltage levels( 15V ). A 4008 RAM chip is not the same as an intel 4008 chip. It is conceivable to use a logic tester to test a i4004 but it would be a lot of effort. Each instruction does unique operations inside of the i4004. One would have to have 256^2 inputs to fully test a i4004 from the pins. Even then there are a similar number of replies that would have to be checked. One could at best have a simple confidence test that it appeared to be working, as most failures of IC cause complete failure of the chip. Even Intel never fully tested parts going out the door. Even for a processor as simple as the 4004, a complete test is not practical. There are not test circuits built into it either. Erturk Kolcalar makes a retro processor exerciser. It basically runs through a USB port from a PC. In its current form, it can't fully test a i4004 because it doesn't meet the proper frequency ( some will work but others won't, but still be functional i4004s ). It runs code loaded from the PC. He currently has the code for the Busicom calculator running. I don't recall if he has one for the 8008? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 5:44 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! does it test 4004 and 8008 In a message dated 2/7/2022 6:32:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: You may recall that, a few weeks ago, I requested parts help (shoppingbaskets) for the Retro Chip Tester Pro that I got for Christmas. Well, today's mailbrought the last few parts and I have finished and tested it. Wow! The only thing that itdoesn't do is slice bread. It's great. I've put up a few pictures here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/RCTPro/ I got the 4008 and 1702 adapters with it, but I'm pretty sure that I willget the rest over the next month or so. This is the latest HW version with the latest releasesoftware. Bill S. PS: Thanks to everyone that helped with parts. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 10 11:54:35 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 09:54:35 -0800 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! In-Reply-To: References: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$.ref@verizon.net> <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> <576084798.437209.1644284689547@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2/10/22 09:11, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I hope you are not thinking it would test an Intel 4004 or a 8008? That would be a stretch. For the 4004, there is only a narrow range of frequencies it runs under. I'm not that familiar with the 8008 but suspect it has similar restrictions. Both use dynamic registers. Both use PMOS voltage levels( 15V ). A 4008 RAM chip is not the same as an intel 4008 chip. > It is conceivable to use a logic tester to test a i4004 but it would be a lot of effort. Each instruction does unique operations inside of the i4004. One would have to have 256^2 inputs to fully test a i4004 from the pins. Even then there are a similar number of replies that would have to be checked. One could at best have a simple confidence test that it appeared to be working, as most failures of IC cause complete failure of the chip. Even Intel never fully tested parts going out the door. Even for a processor as simple as the 4004, a complete test is not practical. There are not test circuits built into it either. > Erturk Kolcalar makes a retro processor exerciser. It basically runs through a USB port from a PC. In its current form, it can't fully test a i4004 because it doesn't meet the proper frequency ( some will work but others won't, but still be functional i4004s ). It runs code loaded from the PC. He currently has the code for the Busicom calculator running. > I don't recall if he has one for the 8008? Is it safe to assume that the chip tester works with TTL-level signals only? So no ECL or PMOS, for example? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 12:06:18 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 13:06:18 -0500 Subject: Retro Chip Tester Pro, done! In-Reply-To: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> References: <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$.ref@verizon.net> <0cfc01d81c8b$922ffd00$b68ff700$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 8:32 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > You may recall that, a few weeks ago, I requested parts help (shopping > baskets) for the Retro Chip Tester Pro that I got for Christmas. Well, today's mail > brought the last few parts and I have finished and tested it. Cool. Good to see it. I have a board I need to populate myself (mostly I need the MOSFETs) -ethan From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Feb 10 16:45:06 2022 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:45:06 +0100 Subject: Wanted: Pinout IDT 49C402 PGA84 Message-ID: Hi, I have 4 pcs. IDT49C402 Bit Slices, it is no problem to find a datasheet for that chip..but it is an problem to find the pinout for the PGA84 Package. In all Datasheets that I've found only DIP68, LCC/PLCC68 PGA68 and CERQUAD68 are listet.. Has anyone a databook newer than 1989 where the PGA84 Pinout is listed? TIA, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From macro at orcam.me.uk Thu Feb 10 17:20:52 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 23:20:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted: Pinout IDT 49C402 PGA84 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone a databook newer than 1989 where the PGA84 Pinout is listed? It seems like datasheetarchive.com has a copy of a 1995 datasheet listing what you need ("IDT49C402/A/B 16-BIT CMOS Microprocessor Slice", IDT doc #9011; original, not a scan). I have just downloaded it. Shall I send it to you or will you grab it yourself? Maciej From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 17:28:01 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 15:28:01 -0800 Subject: Wanted: Pinout IDT 49C402 PGA84 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:21 PM Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > > > Has anyone a databook newer than 1989 where the PGA84 Pinout is listed? > > It seems like datasheetarchive.com has a copy of a 1995 datasheet listing > what you need ("IDT49C402/A/B 16-BIT CMOS Microprocessor Slice", IDT doc > #9011; original, not a scan). I have just downloaded it. See also: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/idt/_dataBooks/1995_IDT_High-Performance_Logic_Data_Book.pdf Chapter 11, 16-BIT CMOS MICROPROCESSOR SLICE IDT49C402, IDT49C402A, IDT49C402B Page 4 of Chapter 11, PGA TOP VIEW From cube1 at charter.net Thu Feb 10 18:05:42 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 18:05:42 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS In-Reply-To: <33cc1e2a-43e0-5777-ce47-230c08edfe0a@btinternet.com> References: <20220209140250.6151718C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7B3C7D51-C8A7-4787-BE44-FA2CF100E4D6@sytse.net> <33cc1e2a-43e0-5777-ce47-230c08edfe0a@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <59e600be-12bd-612d-beac-e106fdbc90d1@charter.net> Looking at my inventory, I seem to have no less than four spare M8266 (plus one in my 11/34 that runs, plus probably another in my 11/34 out in the garage.) Rod, where are you located? JRJ On 2/9/2022 6:16 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > ??? We have narrowed the problem down. > > Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. > > The images of those are whats needed. > > Regards Rod > > > On 09/02/2022 23:14, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: >>>>> I found >>>>> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ >>>>> >>>>> which has the source code... >>>>> >>>>> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode >>>>> images. >>> Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the >>> program that >>> produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: >>> >>> ? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) >>> >>> It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it >>> doesn't >>> seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL >>> file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that >>> it was >>> dumping was. >> It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed >> the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight >> binary format, I'd guess. >> >> I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which >> seems to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in >> Verilog. Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using >> that microcode in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 >> to run it unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of >> the project - since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to >> assume it got stuck somewhere along the way. >> >> Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something >> similar but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is >> microcode compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 >> that's 'only' functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the >> same way I would start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... >> If anyone has them and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) >> >> Cheers >> Sytse >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 10 19:17:23 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 20:17:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS Message-ID: <20220211011723.D960A18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Warner Losh > Do those chips have ROM numbers on them? I have updated the: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-E_CPU https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-EA_CPU articles with the DEC part numbers for the i) microcode and ii) instruction decode PROms. That's not all the PROMs on the Control card - there are effing bazillions of the damned things (I suspect they used them to reduce the amount of random logic, so the CPU'd fit on two boards) - but it's most of them. I have yet to triple-check them, so there might still be transcription error or two. > From: Rod Smallwood > I am sure somebody will come up with the actual images either the > original files or derived from what we have. I wouldn't be too sure of that; silence so far. I have reached out to Mike Douglas, to ask where the microcode dump on DeRamp came from: perhaps the originator can help with the missing bits. (Although perhaps I should ask Al K; BitSavers also has the dump, and it's older, so perhaps that copy came from the originator.) > We have narrowed the problem down. > Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. > The images of those are whats needed. All of them? Or is just one failed? I'm wondering if you've just had a single one lose a bit or two; that's somewhat common in old PROMs. The chip you reported as failing (E111) almost certainly couldn't have taken out an instruction decode PROM, it's nowhere near them. I ask because we have absolutely nothing on those PROM's contents. With the microcode PROMs, we at least have the contents in symbolic form (see pg. 15 of MP00082; alas, we don't seem to have the KD11-EA equivalent of Table 7-15 from EK-FP11A-TM-002), but for all the instruction decode PROMs - nada. Absolutely nothing. But if they're _mostly_ there, with the partial contents, and a description of the failure mode (e.g. 'SETC doesn't set the C bit'), we might be able to work out what bit got dropped. Failing that, someone's going to have to volunteer to unsolder a set, and read them out - at least, I assume that's what would have to be done. Perhaps a logic analyzer could be attached to an instruction decode ROMwhile the CPU ran diagnostics, and eventually a complete readout of the contents accumulated. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 10 23:50:35 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 21:50:35 -0800 Subject: TTL substitute for DTL Message-ID: I've got a piece of gear here with a bad MC858P used as a bus driver--terminated in 220/330 ohms at the far end. Given that old DTL is a hit-or-miss proposition, I'm proposing to substitute a 7438 OC buffer. Pinout's the same, as is Vcc. Before I get out the soldering iron, any "don't do it" thoughts? --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Feb 11 00:39:09 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 22:39:09 -0800 Subject: TTL substitute for DTL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89A6F305-388A-4484-8CC8-D4A57325C1CB@shaw.ca> On 2022-Feb-10, at 9:50 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I've got a piece of gear here with a bad MC858P used as a bus > driver--terminated in 220/330 ohms at the far end. > > Given that old DTL is a hit-or-miss proposition, I'm proposing to > substitute a 7438 OC buffer. Pinout's the same, as is Vcc. > > Before I get out the soldering iron, any "don't do it" thoughts? Are you sure the pinouts match? The Moto book I'm looking at indicates the 858 gates are 'pointing to the middle' (outputs:3,4,10,11) in contrast to the 7438 common 'all gates pointing to the right' (outputs:3,6,8,11). I've replaced DTL with TTL on occasion or two in the past. They're both current-sinking logic so they work together well enough as far as output-input drive. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 11 04:07:48 2022 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:07:48 +0100 Subject: Wanted: Pinout IDT 49C402 PGA84 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:21 PM Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2022, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Has anyone a databook newer than 1989 where the PGA84 Pinout is listed? > > > > It seems like datasheetarchive.com has a copy of a 1995 datasheet listing > > what you need ("IDT49C402/A/B 16-BIT CMOS Microprocessor Slice", IDT doc > > #9011; original, not a scan). I have just downloaded it. > > See also: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/idt/_dataBooks/1995_IDT_High-Performance_Logic_Data_Book.pdf > > Chapter 11, 16-BIT CMOS MICROPROCESSOR SLICE > IDT49C402, IDT49C402A, IDT49C402B > Page 4 of Chapter 11, PGA TOP VIEW Thx Maciej and Glen, got the files now.. Kind Regards Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lists at glitchwrks.com Fri Feb 11 09:06:11 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:06:11 +0000 Subject: WTB: DEC VSXXX-AA Mouse or Compatible Message-ID: All, I'm looking for a DEC VSXXX-AA "hockey puck" mouse or compatible for a VAXstation 3100. Thanks, Jonathan From lists at glitchwrks.com Fri Feb 11 09:16:54 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:16:54 +0000 Subject: WTB: DEC VSXXX-AA Mouse or Compatible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, that was quick! Mouse acquired. Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, February 11th, 2022 at 10:06, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > All, > > I'm looking for a DEC VSXXX-AA "hockey puck" mouse or compatible for a VAXstation 3100. > > Thanks, > > Jonathan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 11 11:59:06 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 09:59:06 -0800 Subject: TTL substitute for DTL In-Reply-To: <89A6F305-388A-4484-8CC8-D4A57325C1CB@shaw.ca> References: <89A6F305-388A-4484-8CC8-D4A57325C1CB@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 2/10/22 22:39, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2022-Feb-10, at 9:50 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I've got a piece of gear here with a bad MC858P used as a bus >> driver--terminated in 220/330 ohms at the far end. >> >> Given that old DTL is a hit-or-miss proposition, I'm proposing to >> substitute a 7438 OC buffer. Pinout's the same, as is Vcc. >> >> Before I get out the soldering iron, any "don't do it" thoughts? > > > Are you sure the pinouts match? The Moto book I'm looking at indicates the 858 gates are 'pointing to the middle' (outputs:3,4,10,11) in contrast to the 7438 common 'all gates pointing to the right' (outputs:3,6,8,11). > > I've replaced DTL with TTL on occasion or two in the past. They're both current-sinking logic so they work together well enough as far as output-input drive. Close enough--using an SOIC-to-DIP breakout board, swap pins 8-10 and 6-4 and Bob should be your uncle. Use 7438 SOIC, of course. At least I believe that should work. Prices for NOS DTL are predictably crazy. --Chuck From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 13:52:34 2022 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 19:52:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Also WTB: DEC VSXXX-AA Mouse or Compatible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <610709152.1320798.1644609154923@mail.yahoo.com> If available, I'd like to purchase a bunch. I am setting up a lab to work on X11 (and then accelerated X11) support for NetBSD, on: - Vaxstation II - Vaxstation II/GPX - vaxstation 2000 with 8-plane GPX, and mono if I can find another chassis - microvax 3100 with. mono, GPX, and/or SPX - DECstation 5000 with a range of Turbochannel graphics options (and 3100s if I fix more PSUs) - Dec 3000 AXP, with a range of Turbohannel graphics options ( I have 300, 500, 600, and 700) I vaguely recall someone (in Australia?) mentioning they had -CA or -GA mice "by the kilogram". I'd pay fair price and shipping to the USA. (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area) . Obviously I can move a single mouse around if required, but that can cause issues on reboot when no mouse is present. 3W3 to BNC. (BC29G), BC18P/BC19S, DEC DB15-to-RGB (mono or RGB, BC23J-03?), and DEC DB15 to mouse/keyboard cables (17-02640-01), also sought after.j From rp at servium.ch Fri Feb 11 13:55:09 2022 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:55:09 -0800 Subject: Also WTB: DEC VSXXX-AA Mouse or Compatible In-Reply-To: <610709152.1320798.1644609154923@mail.yahoo.com> References: <610709152.1320798.1644609154923@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: if you end up buying "a few kilograms" of those mice, I could use a couple, too (I'm also in the Bay Area). On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 11:52 AM Jonathan Stone via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > If available, I'd like to purchase a bunch. I am setting up a lab to work > on X11 (and then accelerated X11) support for NetBSD, on: > - Vaxstation II > - Vaxstation II/GPX > - vaxstation 2000 with 8-plane GPX, and mono if I can find another chassis > - microvax 3100 with. mono, GPX, and/or SPX > - DECstation 5000 with a range of Turbochannel graphics options (and > 3100s if I fix more PSUs) > - Dec 3000 AXP, with a range of Turbohannel graphics options ( I have > 300, 500, 600, and 700) > > I vaguely recall someone (in Australia?) mentioning they had -CA or -GA > mice "by the kilogram". I'd pay fair price and shipping to the USA. > (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area) . > > Obviously I can move a single mouse around if required, but that can cause > issues on reboot when no mouse is present. > > 3W3 to BNC. (BC29G), BC18P/BC19S, DEC DB15-to-RGB (mono or RGB, > BC23J-03?), and DEC DB15 to mouse/keyboard cables (17-02640-01), also > sought after.j > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 11 14:07:53 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:07:53 -0500 Subject: Also WTB: DEC VSXXX-AA Mouse or Compatible In-Reply-To: <610709152.1320798.1644609154923@mail.yahoo.com> References: <610709152.1320798.1644609154923@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A0F9CA7-B681-4C1D-B949-4CECB394A148@comcast.net> > On Feb 11, 2022, at 2:52 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > > If available, I'd like to purchase a bunch. FWIW: it would not be all that hard to convert from readily available USB (or PS2) mice to DEC protocol. I did the analogous work for keyboards (LK201) on Arduino. That same hardware could do this job with different firmware Someone asked me about that a while ago; it's not something I would undertake because I don't have any relevant systems to use it on, but it doesn't look like a difficult job. paul From peveep at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 08:08:08 2022 From: peveep at gmail.com (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 14:08:08 +0000 Subject: Vintage computers Swap-meets in Knoxville region Message-ID: Between the 30th of March and the 20th of April. I am a computer collector from England and specialise on computer artefacts from the 1940s to the 1970s. and would love to attend one of these when visiting my son in TN. Many thanks, peter vp From steven at malikoff.com Sun Feb 13 01:00:30 2022 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 17:00:30 +1000 Subject: Also WTB: DEC VSXXX-AA Mouse or Compatible In-Reply-To: <610709152.1320798.1644609154923@mail.yahoo.com> References: <610709152.1320798.1644609154923@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <74e6def66f4061c4f896195a6a83604e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Jonathan asked > If available, I'd like to purchase a bunch. I am setting up a lab to work on X11 (and then accelerated X11) support for NetBSD, on: > - Vaxstation II > - Vaxstation II/GPX > - vaxstation 2000 with 8-plane GPX, and mono if I can find another chassis > - microvax 3100 with. mono, GPX, and/or SPX > - DECstation 5000 with a range of Turbochannel graphics options (and 3100s if I fix more PSUs) > - Dec 3000 AXP, with a range of Turbohannel graphics options ( I have 300, 500, 600, and 700) > > I vaguely recall someone (in Australia?) mentioning they had -CA or -GA mice "by the kilogram". I'd pay fair price and shipping to the USA. > (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area) . > Indeed I do, and posted a photo of the 3kg bag of DEC VSXXX-GA previously. In addition I found I also have some VSXXX-AA, VSXXX-BB, PCXAS-AA, PC7XS-CA and 30-46117-02 mice. Untested, the lot of them. Regarding the puck mice I'm afraid the chalky roller discs have completely perished and there's hardly a trace of them left, most have only the shafts. Certainly not mechanically useable in their current state. But, that's what I have. I designed and 3D printed replacement rollers that use a small O-ring on the edge https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2899467 The VSXXX-BB have a 4-contact plug with two side locking arms and are like a chunkier version of an RJ11 I guess you could describe it. Contact me offlist stevenNOLUNCHMEATatNOLUNCHMEATmalikoffNOLUNCHMEATdotCOM perhaps we can work something out re quantity. I was thinking about 35 USD per VSXXX-GA and 50 USD per VSXXX-BB (as they need repair). That can then go toward the UniBone I'm saving up for :) Let me know if you think that's too much. Also I'm in Oz so postage so I'm guessing postage won't be cheap. Steve. ps. also have a bunch of PDP-9 flip chips I would like to sell/trade sometime. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Feb 13 11:04:07 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 12:04:07 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> On 2/8/2022 7:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 2/8/22 16:35, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 2/8/2022 5:22 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2/8/22 13:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>> Update on this:? I did put together a battery and voltage divider >>>> to test the AXV11.? The label on the A/D module says it brings the >>>> output from the multiplexer to one of the external pins.? I was >>>> able to verify that the voltage applied to a couple of the A/D >>>> inputs makes it through the multiplexer when selected using the >>>> CSR.? The next output available is from the Sample and Hold, and >>>> this is always pegged at +12v.? Am I wrong to assume that the >>>> sample and hold will 'freeze' its output when the A/D go bit is set? >>> >>> Well, it will probably only hold the approximate voltage for a few >>> seconds, but should be long enough to see on a voltmeter. >>> >>> Jon >>> >> I was only using a voltmeter to look at it. >> >> I'm going to try 2 different measurements; (1) use a scope to look at >> the S&H signal on the AXV11 and see what it does over time, (2) look >> at the same S&H signal on the Data Translation board which seems to >> be working. >> > The S&H will likely have a FET as the switch element, and those might > be fairly easily damaged by external pulses.? I opened up some > comparable Xincom modules and made minor repairs. > > Jon > Stopped fooling with the AXV11 for now.? Applied various voltages to the Data Translation input and recorded the A/D octal values to get an idea of what the calibration of the board is.? It looks very linear, +/-10v range. Using a single battery and voltage divider I was able to generate voltages on the input of the DT2762 board, however, I had to swap wires to get negative voltages.? Is it possible to construct a battery driven circuit that will present both positive and negative voltages at the input?? A bridge of some sort? Doug From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Feb 13 11:43:13 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 12:43:13 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <34b68c36-0cdb-6101-4d35-24385261ae43@alembic.crystel.com> This is a really interesting thread, I have this darn AF01 A/D converter for a negative bus pdp8 and your issues and methods with testing would work well for testing this thing. Bonus it does appear to have a 16 or 64 channel mux capability. Question: Is it possible to change the driver boards for ones that do positive bus logic or is it simpler to build a DW08 converter clone to hook it up to my pdp8/L for testing? C On 2/13/2022 12:04 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 2/8/2022 7:36 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 2/8/22 16:35, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2/8/2022 5:22 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 2/8/22 13:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Update on this:? I did put together a battery and voltage divider >>>>> to test the AXV11.? The label on the A/D module says it brings the >>>>> output from the multiplexer to one of the external pins.? I was >>>>> able to verify that the voltage applied to a couple of the A/D >>>>> inputs makes it through the multiplexer when selected using the >>>>> CSR.? The next output available is from the Sample and Hold, and >>>>> this is always pegged at +12v.? Am I wrong to assume that the >>>>> sample and hold will 'freeze' its output when the A/D go bit is set? >>>> >>>> Well, it will probably only hold the approximate voltage for a few >>>> seconds, but should be long enough to see on a voltmeter. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>> I was only using a voltmeter to look at it. >>> >>> I'm going to try 2 different measurements; (1) use a scope to look at >>> the S&H signal on the AXV11 and see what it does over time, (2) look >>> at the same S&H signal on the Data Translation board which seems to >>> be working. >>> >> The S&H will likely have a FET as the switch element, and those might >> be fairly easily damaged by external pulses.? I opened up some >> comparable Xincom modules and made minor repairs. >> >> Jon >> > Stopped fooling with the AXV11 for now.? Applied various voltages to the > Data Translation input and recorded the A/D octal values to get an idea > of what the calibration of the board is.? It looks very linear, +/-10v > range. > > Using a single battery and voltage divider I was able to generate > voltages on the input of the DT2762 board, however, I had to swap wires > to get negative voltages.? Is it possible to construct a battery driven > circuit that will present both positive and negative voltages at the > input?? A bridge of some sort? > > Doug > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Feb 13 12:03:39 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 10:03:39 -0800 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2022-Feb-13, at 9:04 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Stopped fooling with the AXV11 for now. Applied various voltages to the Data Translation input and recorded the A/D octal values to get an idea of what the calibration of the board is. It looks very linear, +/-10v range. > > Using a single battery and voltage divider I was able to generate voltages on the input of the DT2762 board, however, I had to swap wires to get negative voltages. Is it possible to construct a battery driven circuit that will present both positive and negative voltages at the input? A bridge of some sort? You said it: what amounts to a wheatstone bridge. Take say, two 10K R, in series across the battery forming a 1:1-split voltage divider. The center point shall be the common/0V. The wiper of a pot across the battery forming a variable voltage divider presents the +/- test signal. That would give e.g. +/-6V from a 12V battery. It also presumes you have a reasonably high impedance on your target input/load as you need to keep the Rs adequately high to keep from draining the battery. If you wanted to get +/-12V from a 12V battery, or needed a lower impedance source, a couple of op-amps could be worked up into an equivalent circuit. E.g. two unit-followers, one inverting and one non-inverting, both fed, in counter-point, from the fixed divider and the variable divider, 0V from one output, signal from the other output. From macro at orcam.me.uk Sun Feb 13 13:35:11 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 19:35:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More switchmode power supply grief - Cisco IGS router In-Reply-To: <01S9G1X10B6K8WYC29@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S9BGHE1LLC8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S9DVK08YHS8WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> <01S9G1X10B6K8WYC29@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Feb 2022, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > NB Mouser has the MAP80-4000G in stock actually, so if all else fails and > > you are determined to get the IGS running, you can pick a brand new one: > > . > > > > Thanks again Maciej. > > I've bit the bullet and unsoldered most of the electrolytic capacitors and > other components that seem to be in trouble. When I got the chopper > transistor out, I found that if I hold it at exactly the right angle to > the light, I can see that there are faint markings on it after all and it > turns out to be an IRFPE50 HEXFET. I was wrong about the cracked RIFAs > not being mains filters too, they are actually across L-E and N-E and > they seem to have between a few hundred kOhms and a few MOhms leakage too. > The driver transistor looks like it might be ok. It seems like great progress! Yes, those etched markings are sometimes hard to decipher, requiring looking at the correct angle with light coming from the right direction too and/or techniques used to take fingerprints at a crime scene. With these details known you may be able to actually get this sorted just by yourself. Good luck again! Maciej From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Feb 13 14:40:47 2022 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:40:47 +0000 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> Message-ID: Two batteries in series, using the ?middle? as 0V reference. The ?+? is V+, the ?-? is V-. Van: Douglas Taylor via cctalk Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2022 18:05 Aan: Jon Elson via cctalk Onderwerp: Re: DEC AXV11-C analog board Is it possible to construct a battery driven circuit that will present both positive and negative voltages at the input? A bridge of some sort? Doug From ben at huntsmans.net Sun Feb 13 23:24:26 2022 From: ben at huntsmans.net (Ben Huntsman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 05:24:26 +0000 Subject: AlphaServer ES47 partitioning Message-ID: Hey guys- Anyone on here know much about the Marvel boxes? I've had one for years but never had much time to fiddle with it. I'm looking at the partitioning features. In particular, the manual says: Hard partitions must be on 2P boundaries Tru64 only supports hard partitions However, I can confirm that you can definitely create a hard partition with a single CPU. This got me thinking, and I dug a little deeper into the MBM CLI. The manual seems to suggest that this is the case, but says that the operating system won't work correctly in that configuration. Anyone know why not? When you create a hard partition, you specify what type of subpartition the hard partition can contain. The manual says that only "soft" partitions are officially supported, but the CLI also allows you to create subpartitions of type "firm" and "semi-firm". Does anyone know what "firm" and "semi-firm" partitions do differently than soft partitions? And does Tru64 work with any of that, or is all of that OpenVMS-specific stuff? Also, on a side note, I don't suppose anyone here has a rail kit for an ES47 or ES80 they'd like to sell, or an I/O drawer... Many thanks in advance! -Ben From huw.davies at me.com Mon Feb 14 00:56:03 2022 From: huw.davies at me.com (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 17:56:03 +1100 Subject: AlphaServer ES47 partitioning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD0173C-1970-4CF0-BC75-906EEC93D768@me.com> It?s been a very long time since I partitioned an ES47/GS80 (would have been whilst I worked for Compaq prior to the HP takeover) but ISTR that the reason for the 2P rule was that you couldn?t partition the memory subsystems within a dynamic duo. It?s been a long time and I no longer have access to the appropriate documentation so I could be recalling incorrectly. I don?t even have an ES47 at work anymore to play around with :-( Huw > On 14 Feb 2022, at 16:24, cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Hey guys- > Anyone on here know much about the Marvel boxes? I've had one for years but never had much time to fiddle with it. I'm looking at the partitioning features. In particular, the manual says: > > Hard partitions must be on 2P boundaries > Tru64 only supports hard partitions > > However, I can confirm that you can definitely create a hard partition with a single CPU. This got me thinking, and I dug a little deeper into the MBM CLI. The manual seems to suggest that this is the case, but says that the operating system won't work correctly in that configuration. Anyone know why not? > > When you create a hard partition, you specify what type of subpartition the hard partition can contain. The manual says that only "soft" partitions are officially supported, but the CLI also allows you to create subpartitions of type "firm" and "semi-firm". Does anyone know what "firm" and "semi-firm" partitions do differently than soft partitions? And does Tru64 work with any of that, or is all of that OpenVMS-specific stuff? > > Also, on a side note, I don't suppose anyone here has a rail kit for an ES47 or ES80 they'd like to sell, or an I/O drawer... > > Many thanks in advance! > > -Ben > > From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 05:27:25 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 06:27:25 -0500 Subject: HP 2100S Power Supply Disassembly Tips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <018c01d82195$d7fc0090$87f401b0$@gmail.com> Josh: Did you figure out a safe PS disassembly procedure? If so, what and how did it go? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Josh Dersch via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 1:49 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: HP 2100S Power Supply Disassembly Tips Hey all -- I've had this HP 2100S mini sitting on the bench for a bit, waiting, and I wanted to go through the power supply and test/reform the capacitors this past weekend. The processor service docs cover getting the supply out (which is slightly cumbersome) and I have that step done. But neither the processor docs nor the power supply service docs seem to cover how one disassembles the supply itself. (Has a really thorough guide to how the thing works though, that I'm hoping I won't actually have to use anytime soon.) There are a lot of parts in this unit, and I'm not seeing a method to the madness. The capacitors are fairly easy to *get to* but actually removing them for testing / replacement seems to be another matter entirely. Anyone out there done this before and have any advice? Thanks! - Josh From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 12:22:38 2022 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 13:22:38 -0500 Subject: Varian 620/L backplane netlist? Message-ID: I realize this a rare bird indeed, but would anyone just happen to have a Varian 620/L backplane netlist hanging around? Unless I missed it, the schematics on bitsavers do *not* have it. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 15 15:53:30 2022 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 13:53:30 -0800 Subject: Varian 620/L backplane netlist? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2022-02-15 at 13:22 -0500, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > I realize this a rare bird indeed, but would anyone just happen to > have a > Varian 620/L backplane netlist hanging around? > > Unless I missed it, the schematics on bitsavers do *not* have it. In 1972, I wrote microcode for the Varian V-70 to convince it to be an IBM 1130. Two colleagues wrote the I/O side in 620/f mode. I can send microcode, and flow diagrams for it. I have listings of the I/O simulator, but no electrons. I'll send that to anybody who's interested, for the price of postage. From go at ao-cs.com Tue Feb 15 18:20:34 2022 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 16:20:34 -0800 Subject: DECTape head problem (I've uploaded pictures) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some folks asked for pictures and information about my Astrotype DECtape project. I've uploaded some pictures and other details to the web for your enjoyment. http://xx2247.com contains some photos and first-draft information about the components.? I'll update this site from time-to-time as I make progress. -Gary From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 16:45:53 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 23:45:53 +0100 Subject: Varian 620/L backplane netlist? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave mcguire has one at LSSM near Pittsburgh On Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:22 PM Mark Kahrs via cctech wrote: > I realize this a rare bird indeed, but would anyone just happen to have a > Varian 620/L backplane netlist hanging around? > > Unless I missed it, the schematics on bitsavers do *not* have it. > From ben at huntsmans.net Wed Feb 16 19:58:26 2022 From: ben at huntsmans.net (Ben Huntsman) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 01:58:26 +0000 Subject: Red Hat Linux 7.2 for Alpha Message-ID: Hi guys- Is anyone aware of an archive or mirror of HP / Compaq's Red Hat Linux 7.2 for Alpha download site: ftp://ftp2.compaq.com/pub/linux/RedHat/7.2-alpha/release-isos/ And the update site: ftp://ftp2.compaq.com/pub/linux/RedHat/7.2-alpha/updates/ I can't seem to find this anymore. I have seen a few mentions that there is a "wrapper" installer that is necessary to install 7.2 on an ES47/ES80 machine, and I'm hoping that it was archived or mirrored some place... Thanks in advance! -Ben From jeffrey at vcfed.org Thu Feb 17 10:07:49 2022 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:07:49 -0500 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ Sat, Feb 26 - Vintage Computers, Amateur Radio, TV, Radio, other Tech Message-ID: *The vintage Computer Federation will be having their 3rd swap meet.* *Saturday, February 26, 2022* *8AM to 2PM* *ADDRESS*: *Indoor swap Meet* InfoAge Science and History Museums (Camp Evans) 2201 Marconi Road, Wall, NJ 07719 Buildings 9010-D, 9032-A, 9001 *GPS location*: Google Maps *Satellite Map*: *Street Map*: *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 *Flyer:* 2022-VCF-Swap-Meet-Flyer *Website*: https://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet/ *VENDOR COST* is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is $10. This time it is an *indoor* swap meet. *Bring your own table!* Table isn?t required, but recommended. A space is considered a 6 by 3 foot area (the general size of a table). *Vendor setup at 7AM.* *FREE GENERAL ADMISSION!* *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) Write in the note section: [your name] VCF Swap Meet 2/26/2022 Number of spaces: *Click HERE for Swap Meet Vendor Signup* * Reservation doesn?t guarantee sales. * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must bring their own tables. * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left behind. * Bathrooms on site * Limited food and drink options available. The same info can be found here: https://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap?meet *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org *AFTER THE SWAP MEET, COME VISIT OUR VCF MUSEUM @ INFOAGE!* We are open from 12PM to 5PM: https://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-museum The Vintage Computer Federation Museum is located nearby the swap meet and is part of InfoAge Science and History museums. InfoAge and VCF Museums are open every Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday from 12PM to 5PM InfoAge museums: infoage.org. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Feb 17 12:53:50 2022 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 18:53:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Red Hat Linux 7.2 for Alpha In-Reply-To: <1952247906.4347117.1645124081916@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1952247906.4347117.1645124081916@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <294414033.4323691.1645124030337@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ben, >? I can't seem to find this anymore.? I have seen a few mentions that there is a "wrapper" installer that is necessary to install 7.2 on an ES47/ES80 >machine, and I'm hoping that it was archived or mirrored some place... Back then in 2016, I also looked for these images for my ES80 machine on the HP site and tried to find ftp mirrors, but all I found were broken links. I would be happy, too, if anybody has a copy of these installation sets. Cheers, Pierre From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Feb 17 16:38:00 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 22:38:00 -0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> Sorry it has been a while responding. I have been looking further at my H745 regulators this evening. Below is what I have found and my responses to the various questions. In summary, it looks like the rectifier may be faulty. It is marked NSS3514. I believe it is a 35A part. Can anyone suggest a suitable replacement? Maybe something like this: https://uk.farnell.com/taiwan-semiconductor/gbpc35005w-t0/bridge-rectifier-1 ph-35a-50v-thd/dp/2677250?st=rectifier which is rated 50V and 35A? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Hilpert > Sent: 27 January 2022 03:33 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Testing H745 Regulators > > On 2022-Jan-26, at 3:41 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU > > and I am having some problems with testing them. > > > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as well > > as the "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. > > The problem is that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough > > startup current to allow the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A max. > > > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, then > > they can't start because of the heavy startup current required. I can > > start them with a lower load and then add load once the regulator is > > running without breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get them > > to start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the regulators > > draw the full 5A without outputting -15V. > > > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they > > could both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that > > perhaps they need a higher startup current than I can supply. Can anyone > confirm this? > > > 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. > 15V, 1.5A. > > In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that which the > load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge capacitors. If > you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something beyond 'failure to > start' is wrong. I would expect this supply to operate at small load regardless. > That's interesting. On the H744s I have observed that if I have a high load the bench PSU current limiter operates and the regulator cannot output +5V, but if I start with a lower load and then add load, it can continue to operate. Is the H745 different to the point that I shouldn't expect this kind of behaviour? If it is the same, then why do the H744s do this? I have tried waiting a few moments to allow the input capacitor to charge up, but the regulator just does not start. > What is happening to the bench supply voltage? Does it go into current limit? > Does this bench supply have an adjustable current limit?, so that you could > run it up starting at a low current while taking measurements. Or, does the > current respond with some linearity to varying the input voltage? > > What happens with no load R? Yes, it hits the limit, and it does so even if I have no load at all. > > Are you running it for any length of time at 5A? (Sounds like a bad idea at this > point) Anything getting warm? I daren't run it for long. I just tried running it for 15 seconds and couldn't find anything hot. > > Is the 723 socketed? Pull it and run it up while watching what happens > around the drive transistors and elsewhere. > If the 723 is not socketed, consider pulling Q5 or opening it's emitter > connection. With no drive to the drive transistors, input current should be nil. > > Are any of the drive transistors socketed, so they could be measured out of > circuit? and other R measurements made without them in circuit? > > Pull F1 to isolate circuitry. Still draws current? Well, that is interesting. I pulled the fuse and it does indeed pull in all the current. According to the schematic, the only thing it could be is C1 or R1. I tested C1 out of circuit not too long ago and that seemed fine. I took it out again to be sure and C1 seems fine. R1 also seems to be fine. Which leads me to suspect the rectifier may be bad, although some in circuit tests seem to show it is OK. So, to be clear, I tested with the fuse out, with the rectifier feeding C1, with R1 (3.9K) across C1. The bench PSU hits 5A when trying to supply 20VDC to the rectifier. As the fuse was removed there couldn't be anything else that is shorted. The capacitor does not charge up. This does suggest the rectifier is the problem. > > Have you looked for shorts/leaks?, especially leaky junctions in transistors > Q2::Q5. > e.g. R measurements, no F1, no load R, both directions: > Q2.B-C ? > Q2.E-GND ? > Q2.C-GND ? > -15-GND ? > Settling time for cap charge/discharge may be needed. > > In answer to your earlier question, no, the +15V is not the reference, it is the > supply for the 723 regulator IC. The reference is the internal reference > provided by the 723, though that internal reference is powered inside the IC > from the +15V. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Feb 17 16:57:01 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 22:57:01 -0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02cf01d82451$acf073e0$06d15ba0$@ntlworld.com> Hmmm this would suggest 200V 20A https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decfieldSeeTechnicalManual1972_19126909 8/DEC_Field_Service_Technical_Manual_1972_djvu.txt rather than 35A. Given the 20-30VAC input though, I presume a 50V part would be OK still? > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 17 February 2022 22:38 > To: 'Brent Hilpert' ; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Testing H745 Regulators > > Sorry it has been a while responding. I have been looking further at my H745 > regulators this evening. Below is what I have found and my responses to the > various questions. > > In summary, it looks like the rectifier may be faulty. It is marked NSS3514. > I believe it is a 35A part. Can anyone suggest a suitable replacement? Maybe > something like this: > https://uk.farnell.com/taiwan-semiconductor/gbpc35005w-t0/bridge- > rectifier-1 > ph-35a-50v-thd/dp/2677250?st=rectifier which is rated 50V and 35A? > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brent Hilpert > > Sent: 27 January 2022 03:33 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; > > General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Testing H745 Regulators > > > > On 2022-Jan-26, at 3:41 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU > > > and I am having some problems with testing them. > > > > > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as > > > well as the "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench PSU. > > > The problem is that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough > > > startup current to allow the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A > max. > > > > > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, > > > then they can't start because of the heavy startup current required. > > > I can start them with a lower load and then add load once the > > > regulator is running without breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > > > > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get > > > them to start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the > > > regulators draw the full 5A without outputting -15V. > > > > > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they > > > could both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that > > > perhaps they need a higher startup current than I can supply. Can > > > anyone > > confirm this? > > > > > > 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. > > 15V, 1.5A. > > > > In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that > > which > the > > load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge capacitors. > > If you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something beyond > > 'failure to start' is wrong. I would expect this supply to operate at > > small load > regardless. > > > > > That's interesting. On the H744s I have observed that if I have a high load the > bench PSU current limiter operates and the regulator cannot output +5V, but > if I start with a lower load and then add load, it can continue to operate. Is > the H745 different to the point that I shouldn't expect this kind of behaviour? > If it is the same, then why do the H744s do this? I have tried waiting a few > moments to allow the input capacitor to charge up, but the regulator just > does not start. > > > > > What is happening to the bench supply voltage? Does it go into current > limit? > > Does this bench supply have an adjustable current limit?, so that you > could > > run it up starting at a low current while taking measurements. Or, > > does > the > > current respond with some linearity to varying the input voltage? > > > > What happens with no load R? > > Yes, it hits the limit, and it does so even if I have no load at all. > > > > > Are you running it for any length of time at 5A? (Sounds like a bad > > idea > at this > > point) Anything getting warm? > > I daren't run it for long. I just tried running it for 15 seconds and couldn't find > anything hot. > > > > > Is the 723 socketed? Pull it and run it up while watching what happens > > around the drive transistors and elsewhere. > > If the 723 is not socketed, consider pulling Q5 or opening it's > > emitter connection. With no drive to the drive transistors, input > > current should > be nil. > > > > Are any of the drive transistors socketed, so they could be measured > > out > of > > circuit? and other R measurements made without them in circuit? > > > > Pull F1 to isolate circuitry. Still draws current? > > Well, that is interesting. I pulled the fuse and it does indeed pull in all the > current. According to the schematic, the only thing it could be is C1 or R1. I > tested C1 out of circuit not too long ago and that seemed fine. I took it out > again to be sure and C1 seems fine. R1 also seems to be fine. Which leads me > to suspect the rectifier may be bad, although some in circuit tests seem to > show it is OK. So, to be clear, I tested with the fuse out, with the rectifier > feeding C1, with R1 (3.9K) across C1. The bench PSU hits 5A when trying to > supply 20VDC to the rectifier. As the fuse was removed there couldn't be > anything else that is shorted. The capacitor does not charge up. > This does suggest the rectifier is the problem. > > > > > > Have you looked for shorts/leaks?, especially leaky junctions in > transistors > > Q2::Q5. > > e.g. R measurements, no F1, no load R, both directions: > > Q2.B-C ? > > Q2.E-GND ? > > Q2.C-GND ? > > -15-GND ? > > Settling time for cap charge/discharge may be needed. > > > > In answer to your earlier question, no, the +15V is not the reference, > > it > is the > > supply for the 723 regulator IC. The reference is the internal > > reference provided by the 723, though that internal reference is > > powered inside the > IC > > from the +15V. From lists at glitchwrks.com Thu Feb 17 17:37:17 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:37:17 +0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <02cf01d82451$acf073e0$06d15ba0$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> <02cf01d82451$acf073e0$06d15ba0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I used a Vishay GBPC3506W-E4/51, which is 600V 35A, 400A inrush rated. Looks like they're currently on-order at Mouser, I don't know about other suppliers. The GBPC3506W-E4/51 is a little thinner than the bridge rectifier DEC used originally, which sometimes matters. For the 5411086 board in my PDP-11/10, height does matter, as it shares a heatsink with other parts. I stacked a few washers under the center of the bridge: http://www.glitchwrks.com/images/dec/pdp1110_psu_repair/rectifier_spacer.jpg Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, February 17th, 2022 at 17:57, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm this would suggest 200V 20A > > https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decfieldSeeTechnicalManual1972_19126909 > > 8/DEC_Field_Service_Technical_Manual_1972_djvu.txt rather than 35A. Given > > the 20-30VAC input though, I presume a 50V part would be OK still? > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > > Sent: 17 February 2022 22:38 > > > > To: 'Brent Hilpert' bhilpert at shaw.ca; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: RE: Testing H745 Regulators > > > > Sorry it has been a while responding. I have been looking further at my > > H745 > > > regulators this evening. Below is what I have found and my responses to > > the > > > various questions. > > > > In summary, it looks like the rectifier may be faulty. It is marked > > NSS3514. > > > I believe it is a 35A part. Can anyone suggest a suitable replacement? > > Maybe > > > something like this: > > > > https://uk.farnell.com/taiwan-semiconductor/gbpc35005w-t0/bridge- > > > > rectifier-1 > > > > ph-35a-50v-thd/dp/2677250?st=rectifier which is rated 50V and 35A? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Brent Hilpert bhilpert at shaw.ca > > > > > > Sent: 27 January 2022 03:33 > > > > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com; > > > > > > General > > > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: Testing H745 Regulators > > > > > > On 2022-Jan-26, at 3:41 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU > > > > > > > > and I am having some problems with testing them. > > > > > > > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as > > > > > > > > well as the "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench > > PSU. > > > > > The problem is that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough > > > > > > > > startup current to allow the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A > > > > > > > > max. > > > > > > > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, > > > > > > > > then they can't start because of the heavy startup current required. > > > > > > > > I can start them with a lower load and then add load once the > > > > > > > > regulator is running without breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > > > > > > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get > > > > > > > > them to start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the > > > > > > > > regulators draw the full 5A without outputting -15V. > > > > > > > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they > > > > > > > > could both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that > > > > > > > > perhaps they need a higher startup current than I can supply. Can > > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > confirm this? > > > > > > 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. > > > > > > 15V, 1.5A. > > > > > > In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that > > > > > > which > > > > > > the > > > > > > load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge capacitors. > > > > > > If you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something beyond > > > > > > 'failure to start' is wrong. I would expect this supply to operate at > > > > > > small load > > > > > > regardless. > > > > That's interesting. On the H744s I have observed that if I have a high > > load the > > > bench PSU current limiter operates and the regulator cannot output +5V, > > but > > > if I start with a lower load and then add load, it can continue to > > operate. Is > > > the H745 different to the point that I shouldn't expect this kind of > > behaviour? > > > If it is the same, then why do the H744s do this? I have tried waiting a > > few > > > moments to allow the input capacitor to charge up, but the regulator just > > > > does not start. > > > > > What is happening to the bench supply voltage? Does it go into current > > > > > > limit? > > > > > > Does this bench supply have an adjustable current limit?, so that you > > > > > > could > > > > > > run it up starting at a low current while taking measurements. Or, > > > > > > does > > > > > > the > > > > > > current respond with some linearity to varying the input voltage? > > > > > > What happens with no load R? > > > > Yes, it hits the limit, and it does so even if I have no load at all. > > > > > Are you running it for any length of time at 5A? (Sounds like a bad > > > > > > idea > > > > > > at this > > > > > > point) Anything getting warm? > > > > I daren't run it for long. I just tried running it for 15 seconds and > > couldn't find > > > anything hot. > > > > > Is the 723 socketed? Pull it and run it up while watching what happens > > > > > > around the drive transistors and elsewhere. > > > > > > If the 723 is not socketed, consider pulling Q5 or opening it's > > > > > > emitter connection. With no drive to the drive transistors, input > > > > > > current should > > > > > > be nil. > > > > > > Are any of the drive transistors socketed, so they could be measured > > > > > > out > > > > > > of > > > > > > circuit? and other R measurements made without them in circuit? > > > > > > Pull F1 to isolate circuitry. Still draws current? > > > > Well, that is interesting. I pulled the fuse and it does indeed pull in > > all the > > > current. According to the schematic, the only thing it could be is C1 or > > R1. I > > > tested C1 out of circuit not too long ago and that seemed fine. I took it > > out > > > again to be sure and C1 seems fine. R1 also seems to be fine. Which leads > > me > > > to suspect the rectifier may be bad, although some in circuit tests seem > > to > > > show it is OK. So, to be clear, I tested with the fuse out, with the > > rectifier > > > feeding C1, with R1 (3.9K) across C1. The bench PSU hits 5A when trying to > > > > supply 20VDC to the rectifier. As the fuse was removed there couldn't be > > > > anything else that is shorted. The capacitor does not charge up. > > > > This does suggest the rectifier is the problem. > > > > > Have you looked for shorts/leaks?, especially leaky junctions in > > > > > > transistors > > > > > > Q2::Q5. > > > > > > e.g. R measurements, no F1, no load R, both directions: > > > > > > Q2.B-C ? > > > > > > Q2.E-GND ? > > > > > > Q2.C-GND ? > > > > > > -15-GND ? > > > > > > Settling time for cap charge/discharge may be needed. > > > > > > In answer to your earlier question, no, the +15V is not the reference, > > > > > > it > > > > > > is the > > > > > > supply for the 723 regulator IC. The reference is the internal > > > > > > reference provided by the 723, though that internal reference is > > > > > > powered inside the > > > > > > IC > > > > > > from the +15V. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Feb 17 18:28:38 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 19:28:38 -0500 Subject: ID these DEC floppy disks Message-ID: Hey all! While going through floppies I found these and was wondering what they were. Only clue in Google was someone asking in 1997 same thing. BL-T540B-M1 CZUFDB1 USER TESTS BL-T541B-M1 CZXD1B1 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1 BL-T542B-MC CZXD2B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2 BL-T565B-MC CZXD3B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3 BL-T583B-MC CZXD4B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4 Any ideas? The first one does not have a write protect tab, the others do. There is also one other disk I found CZMX4E0 Micro 11 Maint RX50 4 On this one the write protect flag was torn off (was on from factory and removed) C From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 19:26:14 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 17:26:14 -0800 Subject: ID these DEC floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:28 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all! > > While going through floppies I found these and was wondering what they > were. Only clue in Google was someone asking in 1997 same thing. > > BL-T540B-M1 CZUFDB1 USER TESTS > BL-T541B-M1 CZXD1B1 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1 > BL-T542B-MC CZXD2B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2 > BL-T565B-MC CZXD3B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3 > BL-T583B-MC CZXD4B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4 > > Any ideas? The first one does not have a write protect tab, the others > do. There is also one other disk I found > > CZMX4E0 Micro 11 Maint RX50 4 > > On this one the write protect flag was torn off (was on from factory and > removed) My guess is that these are Micro-11 diagnostic test disks, as mentioned in Section 5.7 USER TEST DISKETTES, on Page 5-12, of this manual: MicroPDP-11 Systems Technical Manual, EK-MIC11-TM-002 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf These possibly related tests are listed as being included as part of the XXDP distribution on page A-22 of the PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook, 1988 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf ZUFlEO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #1 ZUF2EO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #2 ZUF3AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #3 ZUF4AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #4 If you have the ability to create ImageDsk images of these disks it might be interesting to take a look at them. From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 20:12:54 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 21:12:54 -0500 Subject: ID these DEC floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <953771c5-d936-3a8d-f575-17890f0d6c18@gmail.com> From my (very stale) memory, FWIW DEC Diagnostic file names were configured thus: First Letter - machine they run on.? ones I remember:? Z=all Unibus, V=LSI-11(18-bit), J=11/73(22-bit) etc.? Strangely, I seem to remember that C represented 11/45, but maybe they changed the scheme at one point. I got into sales and management with Emulex after the 11/73A!? Or perhaps the letter C was prepended as a media type and the rest follows the pattern Second and third letters, the system part they were designed for.? Strangely, VMSxxx would be memory tests for the LSI-11, nothing to do with VMS/ Fourth letter was the actual diagnostic name if more than one for each part. Fifth and sixth letters were major and minor rev levels. So really the names were only unique to four positions. When running them, I would usually only type the first four letters followed by two question marks. So maybe ZUF and ZXD were amalgamations of various tests! Or maybe they changed the scheme :-) cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-02-17 20:26, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:28 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> Hey all! >> >> While going through floppies I found these and was wondering what they >> were. Only clue in Google was someone asking in 1997 same thing. >> >> BL-T540B-M1 CZUFDB1 USER TESTS >> BL-T541B-M1 CZXD1B1 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1 >> BL-T542B-MC CZXD2B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2 >> BL-T565B-MC CZXD3B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3 >> BL-T583B-MC CZXD4B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4 >> >> Any ideas? The first one does not have a write protect tab, the others >> do. There is also one other disk I found >> >> CZMX4E0 Micro 11 Maint RX50 4 >> >> On this one the write protect flag was torn off (was on from factory and >> removed) > My guess is that these are Micro-11 diagnostic test disks, as > mentioned in Section 5.7 USER TEST DISKETTES, on Page 5-12, of this > manual: > MicroPDP-11 Systems Technical Manual, EK-MIC11-TM-002 > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf > > These possibly related tests are listed as being included as part of > the XXDP distribution on page A-22 of the PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook, > 1988 > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf > > ZUFlEO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #1 > ZUF2EO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #2 > ZUF3AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #3 > ZUF4AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #4 > > If you have the ability to create ImageDsk images of these disks it > might be interesting to take a look at them. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 18 00:19:20 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 06:19:20 -0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> <02cf01d82451$acf073e0$06d15ba0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02da01d8248f$7765c070$66314150$@ntlworld.com> Thanks Jonathan, In my case height doesn't matter. Regarding the rating I am not clear what the rating of the original part is, I haven't been able to find a datasheet for it, I have seen suggestions for both 20A and 35A, I do know that the H745 regulator is fed 20-30VAC from a transformer. So presumably going for a 35A rating is the safer bet, and going for a minimum of 50V peak reverse voltage would be sufficient? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Chapman > Sent: 17 February 2022 23:37 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Testing H745 Regulators > > I used a Vishay GBPC3506W-E4/51, which is 600V 35A, 400A inrush rated. > Looks like they're currently on-order at Mouser, I don't know about other > suppliers. > > The GBPC3506W-E4/51 is a little thinner than the bridge rectifier DEC used > originally, which sometimes matters. For the 5411086 board in my PDP-11/10, > height does matter, as it shares a heatsink with other parts. I stacked a few > washers under the center of the bridge: > > http://www.glitchwrks.com/images/dec/pdp1110_psu_repair/rectifier_spac > er.jpg > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Thursday, February 17th, 2022 at 17:57, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > Hmmm this would suggest 200V 20A > > > > > https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decfieldSeeTechnicalManual1972_191 > 26909 > > > > 8/DEC_Field_Service_Technical_Manual_1972_djvu.txt rather than 35A. > Given > > > > the 20-30VAC input though, I presume a 50V part would be OK still? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > > > > Sent: 17 February 2022 22:38 > > > > > > To: 'Brent Hilpert' bhilpert at shaw.ca; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General > > > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > > > Subject: RE: Testing H745 Regulators > > > > > > Sorry it has been a while responding. I have been looking further at my > > > > H745 > > > > > regulators this evening. Below is what I have found and my responses to > > > > the > > > > > various questions. > > > > > > In summary, it looks like the rectifier may be faulty. It is marked > > > > NSS3514. > > > > > I believe it is a 35A part. Can anyone suggest a suitable replacement? > > > > Maybe > > > > > something like this: > > > > > > https://uk.farnell.com/taiwan-semiconductor/gbpc35005w-t0/bridge- > > > > > > rectifier-1 > > > > > > ph-35a-50v-thd/dp/2677250?st=rectifier which is rated 50V and 35A? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Brent Hilpert bhilpert at shaw.ca > > > > > > > > Sent: 27 January 2022 03:33 > > > > > > > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com; > > > > > > > > General > > > > > > > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Testing H745 Regulators > > > > > > > > On 2022-Jan-26, at 3:41 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am trying to test a couple of H745 regulators with a DC bench PSU > > > > > > > > > > and I am having some problems with testing them. > > > > > > > > > > My bench PSU is a twin unit so I can supply the +15V required as > > > > > > > > > > well as the "AC" input using 20VDC from the other half of the bench > > > > PSU. > > > > > > > The problem is that I don't think the bench PSU can supply enough > > > > > > > > > > startup current to allow the regulator to run. It can only supply 5A > > > > > > > > > > max. > > > > > > > > > > I have seen with the H744s that if I put too big a load on them, > > > > > > > > > > then they can't start because of the heavy startup current required. > > > > > > > > > > I can start them with a lower load and then add load once the > > > > > > > > > > regulator is running without breaching the current limit of the PSU. > > > > > > > > > > With the H745s I have tried reducing the load to see if I can get > > > > > > > > > > them to start, but a 10R load appears to be too much and the > > > > > > > > > > regulators draw the full 5A without outputting -15V. > > > > > > > > > > I have two H745s, both exhibit the same behaviour. I suppose they > > > > > > > > > > could both have the same fault, but I am inclined to think that > > > > > > > > > > perhaps they need a higher startup current than I can supply. Can > > > > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > > confirm this? > > > > > > > > 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. > > > > > > > > 15V, 1.5A. > > > > > > > > In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge capacitors. > > > > > > > > If you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something beyond > > > > > > > > 'failure to start' is wrong. I would expect this supply to operate at > > > > > > > > small load > > > > > > > > regardless. > > > > > > That's interesting. On the H744s I have observed that if I have a high > > > > load the > > > > > bench PSU current limiter operates and the regulator cannot output +5V, > > > > but > > > > > if I start with a lower load and then add load, it can continue to > > > > operate. Is > > > > > the H745 different to the point that I shouldn't expect this kind of > > > > behaviour? > > > > > If it is the same, then why do the H744s do this? I have tried waiting a > > > > few > > > > > moments to allow the input capacitor to charge up, but the regulator just > > > > > > does not start. > > > > > > > What is happening to the bench supply voltage? Does it go into current > > > > > > > > limit? > > > > > > > > Does this bench supply have an adjustable current limit?, so that you > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > run it up starting at a low current while taking measurements. Or, > > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > current respond with some linearity to varying the input voltage? > > > > > > > > What happens with no load R? > > > > > > Yes, it hits the limit, and it does so even if I have no load at all. > > > > > > > Are you running it for any length of time at 5A? (Sounds like a bad > > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > at this > > > > > > > > point) Anything getting warm? > > > > > > I daren't run it for long. I just tried running it for 15 seconds and > > > > couldn't find > > > > > anything hot. > > > > > > > Is the 723 socketed? Pull it and run it up while watching what happens > > > > > > > > around the drive transistors and elsewhere. > > > > > > > > If the 723 is not socketed, consider pulling Q5 or opening it's > > > > > > > > emitter connection. With no drive to the drive transistors, input > > > > > > > > current should > > > > > > > > be nil. > > > > > > > > Are any of the drive transistors socketed, so they could be measured > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > circuit? and other R measurements made without them in circuit? > > > > > > > > Pull F1 to isolate circuitry. Still draws current? > > > > > > Well, that is interesting. I pulled the fuse and it does indeed pull in > > > > all the > > > > > current. According to the schematic, the only thing it could be is C1 or > > > > R1. I > > > > > tested C1 out of circuit not too long ago and that seemed fine. I took it > > > > out > > > > > again to be sure and C1 seems fine. R1 also seems to be fine. Which leads > > > > me > > > > > to suspect the rectifier may be bad, although some in circuit tests seem > > > > to > > > > > show it is OK. So, to be clear, I tested with the fuse out, with the > > > > rectifier > > > > > feeding C1, with R1 (3.9K) across C1. The bench PSU hits 5A when trying > to > > > > > > supply 20VDC to the rectifier. As the fuse was removed there couldn't be > > > > > > anything else that is shorted. The capacitor does not charge up. > > > > > > This does suggest the rectifier is the problem. > > > > > > > Have you looked for shorts/leaks?, especially leaky junctions in > > > > > > > > transistors > > > > > > > > Q2::Q5. > > > > > > > > e.g. R measurements, no F1, no load R, both directions: > > > > > > > > Q2.B-C ? > > > > > > > > Q2.E-GND ? > > > > > > > > Q2.C-GND ? > > > > > > > > -15-GND ? > > > > > > > > Settling time for cap charge/discharge may be needed. > > > > > > > > In answer to your earlier question, no, the +15V is not the reference, > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is the > > > > > > > > supply for the 723 regulator IC. The reference is the internal > > > > > > > > reference provided by the 723, though that internal reference is > > > > > > > > powered inside the > > > > > > > > IC > > > > > > > > from the +15V. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Feb 18 00:29:39 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 22:29:39 -0800 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3D1FA53F-DF35-4D6A-A925-A06F80DE0BE2@shaw.ca> On 2022-Feb-17, at 2:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brent Hilpert >> >> 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. >> 15V, 1.5A. >> >> In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that which the >> load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge capacitors. If >> you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something beyond 'failure to >> start' is wrong. > > That's interesting. On the H744s I have observed that if I have a high load > the bench PSU current limiter operates and the regulator cannot output +5V, > but if I start with a lower load and then add load, it can continue to > operate. Is the H745 different to the point that I shouldn't expect this > kind of behaviour? If it is the same, then why do the H744s do this? I have > tried waiting a few moments to allow the input capacitor to charge up, but > the regulator just does not start. Presumably your high test load plus the initial cap-charge current is pushing the bench PS into current limit, that is, with a high load there is less available current to charge the caps before the bench PS starts current limiting. This would slow down the cap charge rate, so it would take longer for the caps to charge. I can't say I see it 'stopping starting', but it would lengthen the time to 'start'. How long depends on the numbers. There may also be some dependance on how your bench PS responds in current limit. On 2022-Feb-17, at 10:19 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Regarding the rating I am not clear what the rating of the original part is, I haven't been able to find a datasheet for it, I have seen suggestions for both 20A and 35A, I do know that the H745 regulator is fed 20-30VAC from a transformer. > > So presumably going for a 35A rating is the safer bet, and going for a minimum of 50V peak reverse voltage would be sufficient? At 30VAC input, peak V is ~ 44V, you're probably better off with rectifiers higher than 50 PIV to provide some safety margin. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 18 01:40:48 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 07:40:48 -0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <3D1FA53F-DF35-4D6A-A925-A06F80DE0BE2@shaw.ca> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> <3D1FA53F-DF35-4D6A-A925-A06F80DE0BE2@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <02e001d8249a$d93fa4e0$8bbeeea0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Hilpert > Sent: 18 February 2022 06:30 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Testing H745 Regulators > > On 2022-Feb-17, at 2:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> > >> 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. > >> 15V, 1.5A. > >> > >> In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that > >> which the load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge > >> capacitors. If you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something > >> beyond 'failure to start' is wrong. > > > > That's interesting. On the H744s I have observed that if I have a high > > load the bench PSU current limiter operates and the regulator cannot > > output +5V, but if I start with a lower load and then add load, it can > > continue to operate. Is the H745 different to the point that I > > shouldn't expect this kind of behaviour? If it is the same, then why > > do the H744s do this? I have tried waiting a few moments to allow the > > input capacitor to charge up, but the regulator just does not start. > > Presumably your high test load plus the initial cap-charge current is pushing > the bench PS into current limit, that is, with a high load there is less available > current to charge the caps before the bench PS starts current limiting. This > would slow down the cap charge rate, so it would take longer for the caps to > charge. I can't say I see it 'stopping starting', but it would lengthen the time to > 'start'. How long depends on the numbers. There may also be some > dependance on how your bench PS responds in current limit. > But if that was the case shouldn't it just take a bit of time to get going, once the input cap has charged wouldn't it start regulating? It shouldn't take more than a few seconds, but it never seems to start. Anyway with the H745 the problem seems to be elsewhere. > > On 2022-Feb-17, at 10:19 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Regarding the rating I am not clear what the rating of the original part is, I > haven't been able to find a datasheet for it, I have seen suggestions for both > 20A and 35A, I do know that the H745 regulator is fed 20-30VAC from a > transformer. > > > > So presumably going for a 35A rating is the safer bet, and going for a > minimum of 50V peak reverse voltage would be sufficient? > > > At 30VAC input, peak V is ~ 44V, you're probably better off with rectifiers > higher than 50 PIV to provide some safety margin. I always forget that the VAC is the RMS and not the peak-to-peak. I will look for a minimum rating of 100V. Thanks Rob From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 01:55:03 2022 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:55:03 -0800 Subject: HP 2100S Power Supply Disassembly Tips In-Reply-To: <018c01d82195$d7fc0090$87f401b0$@gmail.com> References: <018c01d82195$d7fc0090$87f401b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, I didn't. I'm going to have to devote a fair amount of time to a careful disassembly with copious notes and it's not something I can commit to right now, so it's reassembled and back on the shelf for the time being. I'm used to HP gear being a bit more user-serviceable, but I guess they did have a ton of stuff to cram into this supply and not a lot of space to put it in. - Josh On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:27 AM wrote: > Josh: Did you figure out a safe PS disassembly procedure? If so, what > and how did it go? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Josh Dersch via > cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 1:49 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: HP 2100S Power Supply Disassembly Tips > > Hey all -- > > I've had this HP 2100S mini sitting on the bench for a bit, waiting, and I > wanted to go through the power supply and test/reform the capacitors this > past weekend. The processor service docs cover getting the supply out > (which is slightly cumbersome) and I have that step done. But neither the > processor docs nor the power supply service docs seem to cover how one > disassembles the supply itself. (Has a really thorough guide to how the > thing works though, that I'm hoping I won't actually have to use anytime > soon.) > > There are a lot of parts in this unit, and I'm not seeing a method to the > madness. The capacitors are fairly easy to *get to* but actually removing > them for testing / replacement seems to be another matter entirely. Anyone > out there done this before and have any advice? > > Thanks! > - Josh > > From cclist at sytse.net Fri Feb 18 06:51:40 2022 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:51:40 +0100 Subject: ID these DEC floppy disks In-Reply-To: <953771c5-d936-3a8d-f575-17890f0d6c18@gmail.com> References: <953771c5-d936-3a8d-f575-17890f0d6c18@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E1C75A4-01EC-4C1C-B465-55185189B8ED@sytse.net> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/Turnbull_XXDP_Feb93.pdf This doc gives an overview of the naming. The leading C means PDP-11, but is not used in the file names on the xxdp packs and floppies - you'll see it in the listings though. Cheers Sytse > On 18 Feb 2022, at 03:12, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > From my (very stale) memory, FWIW > > DEC Diagnostic file names were configured thus: > > First Letter - machine they run on. ones I remember: Z=all Unibus, V=LSI-11(18-bit), J=11/73(22-bit) etc. Strangely, I seem to remember that C represented 11/45, but maybe they changed the scheme at one point. I got into sales and management with Emulex after the 11/73A! Or perhaps the letter C was prepended as a media type and the rest follows the pattern > > Second and third letters, the system part they were designed for. Strangely, VMSxxx would be memory tests for the LSI-11, nothing to do with VMS/ > > Fourth letter was the actual diagnostic name if more than one for each part. > > Fifth and sixth letters were major and minor rev levels. > > So really the names were only unique to four positions. > > When running them, I would usually only type the first four letters followed by two question marks. > > So maybe ZUF and ZXD were amalgamations of various tests! > > Or maybe they changed the scheme :-) > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2022-02-17 20:26, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:28 PM Chris Zach via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Hey all! >>> >>> While going through floppies I found these and was wondering what they >>> were. Only clue in Google was someone asking in 1997 same thing. >>> >>> BL-T540B-M1 CZUFDB1 USER TESTS >>> BL-T541B-M1 CZXD1B1 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1 >>> BL-T542B-MC CZXD2B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2 >>> BL-T565B-MC CZXD3B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3 >>> BL-T583B-MC CZXD4B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4 >>> >>> Any ideas? The first one does not have a write protect tab, the others >>> do. There is also one other disk I found >>> >>> CZMX4E0 Micro 11 Maint RX50 4 >>> >>> On this one the write protect flag was torn off (was on from factory and >>> removed) >> My guess is that these are Micro-11 diagnostic test disks, as >> mentioned in Section 5.7 USER TEST DISKETTES, on Page 5-12, of this >> manual: >> MicroPDP-11 Systems Technical Manual, EK-MIC11-TM-002 >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf >> >> These possibly related tests are listed as being included as part of >> the XXDP distribution on page A-22 of the PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook, >> 1988 >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf >> >> ZUFlEO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #1 >> ZUF2EO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #2 >> ZUF3AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #3 >> ZUF4AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #4 >> >> If you have the ability to create ImageDsk images of these disks it >> might be interesting to take a look at them. From ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 06:08:50 2022 From: ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com (Joerg Hoppe) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:08:50 +0100 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed Message-ID: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Hi, my computer club c-c-g.de could acquire the remains of a VAX9000 ! The machine ran at the GWDG computing center in G?ttingen, Germany, around 1993. Parts of it were in stock of their museum for 20+ years. See lots of hires-pictures at https://c-c-g.de/fachartikel/359-vax-9000-ein-starker-exot (scroll to the bottom for a slide show). Joerg From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 07:16:35 2022 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 08:16:35 -0500 Subject: ID these DEC floppy disks In-Reply-To: <6E1C75A4-01EC-4C1C-B465-55185189B8ED@sytse.net> References: <953771c5-d936-3a8d-f575-17890f0d6c18@gmail.com> <6E1C75A4-01EC-4C1C-B465-55185189B8ED@sytse.net> Message-ID: Thanks for that. My memory is now refreshed! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2022-02-18 07:51, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/Turnbull_XXDP_Feb93.pdf > > This doc gives an overview of the naming. > > The leading C means PDP-11, but is not used in the file names on the xxdp packs and floppies - you'll see it in the listings though. > > Cheers > Sytse > >> On 18 Feb 2022, at 03:12, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> >> From my (very stale) memory, FWIW >> >> DEC Diagnostic file names were configured thus: >> >> First Letter - machine they run on. ones I remember: Z=all Unibus, V=LSI-11(18-bit), J=11/73(22-bit) etc. Strangely, I seem to remember that C represented 11/45, but maybe they changed the scheme at one point. I got into sales and management with Emulex after the 11/73A! Or perhaps the letter C was prepended as a media type and the rest follows the pattern >> >> Second and third letters, the system part they were designed for. Strangely, VMSxxx would be memory tests for the LSI-11, nothing to do with VMS/ >> >> Fourth letter was the actual diagnostic name if more than one for each part. >> >> Fifth and sixth letters were major and minor rev levels. >> >> So really the names were only unique to four positions. >> >> When running them, I would usually only type the first four letters followed by two question marks. >> >> So maybe ZUF and ZXD were amalgamations of various tests! >> >> Or maybe they changed the scheme :-) >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype:TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> >> On 2022-02-17 20:26, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:28 PM Chris Zach via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> Hey all! >>>> >>>> While going through floppies I found these and was wondering what they >>>> were. Only clue in Google was someone asking in 1997 same thing. >>>> >>>> BL-T540B-M1 CZUFDB1 USER TESTS >>>> BL-T541B-M1 CZXD1B1 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1 >>>> BL-T542B-MC CZXD2B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2 >>>> BL-T565B-MC CZXD3B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3 >>>> BL-T583B-MC CZXD4B0 FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4 >>>> >>>> Any ideas? The first one does not have a write protect tab, the others >>>> do. There is also one other disk I found >>>> >>>> CZMX4E0 Micro 11 Maint RX50 4 >>>> >>>> On this one the write protect flag was torn off (was on from factory and >>>> removed) >>> My guess is that these are Micro-11 diagnostic test disks, as >>> mentioned in Section 5.7 USER TEST DISKETTES, on Page 5-12, of this >>> manual: >>> MicroPDP-11 Systems Technical Manual, EK-MIC11-TM-002 >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf >>> >>> These possibly related tests are listed as being included as part of >>> the XXDP distribution on page A-22 of the PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook, >>> 1988 >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf >>> >>> ZUFlEO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #1 >>> ZUF2EO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #2 >>> ZUF3AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #3 >>> ZUF4AO.BIN MICRO-11 USER TEST #4 >>> >>> If you have the ability to create ImageDsk images of these disks it >>> might be interesting to take a look at them. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 08:46:46 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:46:46 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Feb 18, 2022, at 7:08 AM, Joerg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > my computer club c-c-g.de could acquire the remains of a VAX9000 ! > The machine ran at the GWDG computing center in G?ttingen, Germany, around 1993. > Parts of it were in stock of their museum for 20+ years. > > See lots of hires-pictures at > > https://c-c-g.de/fachartikel/359-vax-9000-ein-starker-exot > > (scroll to the bottom for a slide show). > > Joerg Excellent photos! I didn't realize the 9000 had a vector processor. One reason the design was so expensive is that it was originally planned as a water-cooled machine -- code name "Aquarius". At some point that idea was dropped and switched to air cooling -- code name "Aridus". I guess those skinny pipes with red and blue markers carry jets of cooling air, but were originally going to carry water. The 9000 also had its own I/O bus, XMI, different from BI. I don't know how its performance compares, whether it was worth the effort. Speaking of vector processors: there's a very obscure DEC processor, the DEC MPP. I remember seeing the processor architecture document when it was being designed, not sure why. It's a very-RISC machine, just a few instructions, but lots of cores especially for that time -- 256? More? Recently I saw it mentioned in some documents, apparently it did get produced and shipped, perhaps only in small numbers. I wonder if any have been preserved. As far as I know there is no family connection between that machine and anything else DEC did before or since. paul From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:16:51 2022 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:16:51 -0800 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul, What was the timeframe for the MPP? Lee On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 6:47 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Feb 18, 2022, at 7:08 AM, Joerg Hoppe via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > my computer club c-c-g.de could acquire the remains of a VAX9000 ! > > The machine ran at the GWDG computing center in G?ttingen, Germany, > around 1993. > > Parts of it were in stock of their museum for 20+ years. > > > > See lots of hires-pictures at > > > > https://c-c-g.de/fachartikel/359-vax-9000-ein-starker-exot > > > > (scroll to the bottom for a slide show). > > > > Joerg > > Excellent photos! > > I didn't realize the 9000 had a vector processor. > > One reason the design was so expensive is that it was originally planned > as a water-cooled machine -- code name "Aquarius". At some point that idea > was dropped and switched to air cooling -- code name "Aridus". I guess > those skinny pipes with red and blue markers carry jets of cooling air, but > were originally going to carry water. > > The 9000 also had its own I/O bus, XMI, different from BI. I don't know > how its performance compares, whether it was worth the effort. > > Speaking of vector processors: there's a very obscure DEC processor, the > DEC MPP. I remember seeing the processor architecture document when it was > being designed, not sure why. It's a very-RISC machine, just a few > instructions, but lots of cores especially for that time -- 256? More? > Recently I saw it mentioned in some documents, apparently it did get > produced and shipped, perhaps only in small numbers. I wonder if any have > been preserved. As far as I know there is no family connection between > that machine and anything else DEC did before or since. > > paul > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 11:56:14 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:56:14 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: <72BA0A24-0D3E-4FE5-907C-10862EA0AE53@comcast.net> > On Feb 18, 2022, at 12:16 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: > > Paul, > > What was the timeframe for the MPP? I thought late 1980s. Just did some searching, which turns up some manuals for the "DecMPP 12000". And a trade press article that says it's a rebadged MasPar machine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MasPar says that MasPar was founded by ex-DEC chip VP Jeff Kalb. He took a design done at DEC, for a massively parallel machine inspired by the Goodyear MPP with some changes. DEC decided not to build that so MasPar did and DEC then resold it. The description sounds vaguely familiar. The manual I downloaded says it has 1024 cores per board, and up to 16 boards. Neat. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 12:30:16 2022 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 10:30:16 -0800 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 6:55 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Speaking of vector processors: there's a very obscure DEC processor, the > DEC MPP. I remember seeing the processor architecture document when it was > being designed, not sure why. It's a very-RISC machine, just a few > instructions, but lots of cores especially for that time -- 256? More? > Recently I saw it mentioned in some documents, apparently it did get > produced and shipped, perhaps only in small numbers. I wonder if any have > been preserved. There was one listed on eBay for an obscene (like $500k?) price for quite awhile, don't see it listed right now though. Somehow I doubt it sold. But at least there's one out there, somewhere... - Josh > As far as I know there is no family connection between that machine and > anything else DEC did before or since. > > paul > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Feb 18 13:20:20 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:20:20 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/18/22 13:30, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 6:55 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Speaking of vector processors: there's a very obscure DEC processor, the >> DEC MPP. I remember seeing the processor architecture document when it was >> being designed, not sure why. It's a very-RISC machine, just a few >> instructions, but lots of cores especially for that time -- 256? More? >> Recently I saw it mentioned in some documents, apparently it did get >> produced and shipped, perhaps only in small numbers. I wonder if any have >> been preserved. > > > There was one listed on eBay for an obscene (like $500k?) price for quite > awhile, don't see it listed right now though. Somehow I doubt it sold. > But at least there's one out there, somewhere... > Maybe, maybe not. Failure to sell may have resulted in scrapping. When I had to get rid of my last big iron vaxen at the University it was made quite clear that if I didn't find them a home in a very short time they would be scrapped. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 14:35:04 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:35:04 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> References: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> Message-ID: <786D0AD1-BE3D-452C-802A-9EDB2BEA7EE0@comcast.net> > On Feb 18, 2022, at 3:18 PM, Gary Grebus wrote: > > On 2/18/22 09:46, Paul Koning wrote: >> ...The 9000 also had its own I/O bus, XMI, different from BI. I don't know how its performance compares, whether it was worth the effort. > > XMI already existed as the system bus for the VAX 6000 series machines. I/O on the VAX 6000's was via an XMI-to-BI bridge. I don't remember the exact performance specs on XMI, but it was wider and faster than BI. > > XMI was then also used as one of the possible I/O buses on the VAX 10000 and AlphaServer 7000 and 8000 series machines, via a system bus to XMI bridge. So the XMI I/O adapters were common across all these series of machines. I didn't remember all those details, thanks. There also was an effort at one point to adopt FutureBus in DEC systems. We did a pile of design in the network architecture group to figure out how to handle interrupts and bus cycles efficiently; I don't remember if anything actually shipped with that stuff. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 18 14:46:52 2022 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:46:52 +0000 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <786D0AD1-BE3D-452C-802A-9EDB2BEA7EE0@comcast.net> References: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> <786D0AD1-BE3D-452C-802A-9EDB2BEA7EE0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6ee6d9b6-58e4-7fa9-e2ca-6d14b45278c9@ntlworld.com> On 18/02/2022 20:35, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > There also was an effort at one point to adopt FutureBus in DEC systems. We did a pile of design in the network architecture group to figure out how to handle interrupts and bus cycles efficiently; I don't remember if anything actually shipped with that stuff. > > paul The DEC 4000 systems (COBRA and the follow-on upgrade, FANG) use FB as an I/O bus. DECnis also used FB as its backplane. They couldn't share cards though. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Feb 18 14:57:57 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:57:57 -0800 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <02e001d8249a$d93fa4e0$8bbeeea0$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> <3D1FA53F-DF35-4D6A-A925-A06F80DE0BE2@shaw.ca> <02e001d8249a$d93fa4e0$8bbeeea0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2022-Feb-17, at 11:40 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brent Hilpert >> On 2022-Feb-17, at 2:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Brent Hilpert >>>> >>>> 20V on a 10 ohm load: current = 2A. >>>> 15V, 1.5A. >>>> >>>> In this regulator design there is no path for more current than that >>>> which the load draws, aside from temporary peak currents to charge >>>> capacitors. If you're drawing 5A DC from the bench supply, something >>>> beyond 'failure to start' is wrong. >>> >>> That's interesting. On the H744s I have observed that if I have a high >>> load the bench PSU current limiter operates and the regulator cannot >>> output +5V, but if I start with a lower load and then add load, it can >>> continue to operate. Is the H745 different to the point that I >>> shouldn't expect this kind of behaviour? If it is the same, then why >>> do the H744s do this? I have tried waiting a few moments to allow the >>> input capacitor to charge up, but the regulator just does not start. >> >> Presumably your high test load plus the initial cap-charge current is > pushing >> the bench PS into current limit, that is, with a high load there is less > available >> current to charge the caps before the bench PS starts current limiting. > This >> would slow down the cap charge rate, so it would take longer for the caps > to >> charge. I can't say I see it 'stopping starting', but it would lengthen > the time to >> 'start'. How long depends on the numbers. There may also be some >> dependance on how your bench PS responds in current limit. >> > > But if that was the case shouldn't it just take a bit of time to get going, > once the input cap has charged wouldn't it start regulating? It shouldn't > take more than a few seconds, but it never seems to start. Anyway with the > H745 the problem seems to be elsewhere. The 744 derives the +15 supply for the 723 from the same 20-30VAC main input supply, in contrast to the 745 where the +15 is from another source. With the 744, once your bench supply goes into current limit and drops its output voltage, that's also dropping the +15 for the 723. Everything is going to be out of whack at that point, the reference supply, the amp/comparator action, etc. I can't say at this distance and limited info exactly what's going on, there's also the Q7 unijunction shut-down circuit in there. It may be in some sort of oscillation 'trying to start' or it may be latched up into an off state, because the supply voltage is below some threshold. (I've never dealt with these supplies directly, I'm just observing the schematics.) This behaviour may be different for the 745 because the +15 ancillary supply is separate/independant from the main input. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Feb 18 15:02:37 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 16:02:37 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <72BA0A24-0D3E-4FE5-907C-10862EA0AE53@comcast.net> References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> <72BA0A24-0D3E-4FE5-907C-10862EA0AE53@comcast.net> Message-ID: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MasPar says that MasPar was founded by ex-DEC chip VP Jeff Kalb. He took a design done at DEC, for a massively parallel machine inspired by the Goodyear MPP with some changes. DEC decided not to build that so MasPar did and DEC then resold it. The description sounds vaguely familiar. The manual I downloaded says it has 1024 cores per board, and up to 16 boards. Neat. If you have a university library nearby go check the old Computer Society archives. I was involved with the Supercomputing conferences in the early 90's (and built the E-commerce system for SC94's registration) and talk of this system has knocked loose a marble in my brain from the late 80's. There might be more documentation in the various proceedings or in the Computer magazines and Transactions on Parallel Computing from the time.... From glg at grebus.com Fri Feb 18 14:18:01 2022 From: glg at grebus.com (Gary Grebus) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:18:01 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> On 2/18/22 09:46, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 18, 2022, at 7:08 AM, Joerg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> my computer club c-c-g.de could acquire the remains of a VAX9000 ! >> The machine ran at the GWDG computing center in G?ttingen, Germany, around 1993. >> Parts of it were in stock of their museum for 20+ years. >> >> See lots of hires-pictures at >> >> https://c-c-g.de/fachartikel/359-vax-9000-ein-starker-exot >> >> (scroll to the bottom for a slide show). >> >> Joerg > > Excellent photos! > > I didn't realize the 9000 had a vector processor. > > One reason the design was so expensive is that it was originally planned as a water-cooled machine -- code name "Aquarius". At some point that idea was dropped and switched to air cooling -- code name "Aridus". I guess those skinny pipes with red and blue markers carry jets of cooling air, but were originally going to carry water. > > The 9000 also had its own I/O bus, XMI, different from BI. I don't know how its performance compares, whether it was worth the effort. > XMI already existed as the system bus for the VAX 6000 series machines. I/O on the VAX 6000's was via an XMI-to-BI bridge. I don't remember the exact performance specs on XMI, but it was wider and faster than BI. XMI was then also used as one of the possible I/O buses on the VAX 10000 and AlphaServer 7000 and 8000 series machines, via a system bus to XMI bridge. So the XMI I/O adapters were common across all these series of machines. Gary From lists at glitchwrks.com Fri Feb 18 15:23:24 2022 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 21:23:24 +0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: <02e001d8249a$d93fa4e0$8bbeeea0$@ntlworld.com> References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> <3D1FA53F-DF35-4D6A-A925-A06F80DE0BE2@shaw.ca> <02e001d8249a$d93fa4e0$8bbeeea0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > I always forget that the VAC is the RMS and not the peak-to-peak. I will > look for a minimum rating of 100V. 600V bridge modules are often more cost effective, and more likely to be in stock. That's why I went with the Vishay part I used. If you can't find what you need due to shortages, you can also use a Faston tab rectifier and solder wire legs to it. Thanks, Jonathan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Feb 18 15:30:00 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 16:30:00 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> References: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> Message-ID: > XMI already existed as the system bus for the VAX 6000 series machines. > ? I/O on the VAX 6000's was via an XMI-to-BI bridge.? I don't remember > the exact performance specs on XMI, but it was wider and faster than BI. I thought XMI was only supposed to be a CPU/memory bus, with IO being done by multiple VaxBI busses. That's what we had on the 6000 at the computer Society: 2 CPUs, memory, and two VaxBi with a SCSI disk controller on each. I think it also had serial connections via terminal servers because the ceiling in the computer room collapsed shortly after I started working there from all the RS232 cables piled up there. Landed right on the SparcStation 20 and "crashed" our WAIS/Gopher server. Learn something new every day. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 15:41:59 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 16:41:59 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> Message-ID: <72A08F01-6AA4-4E10-A99F-0971F4F0A469@comcast.net> > On Feb 18, 2022, at 4:30 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> XMI already existed as the system bus for the VAX 6000 series machines. I/O on the VAX 6000's was via an XMI-to-BI bridge. I don't remember the exact performance specs on XMI, but it was wider and faster than BI. > > I thought XMI was only supposed to be a CPU/memory bus, with IO being done by multiple VaxBI busses. That's what we had on the 6000 at the computer Society: 2 CPUs, memory, and two VaxBi with a SCSI disk controller on each. From what was just reported, the 6000 series indeed did it that way. But I think on the 9000 it was an I/O bus too. I definitely remember some work on XMI based I/O devices, in particular an FDDI card. And indeed you can find a spec for that device in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/xmi/ . paul From pat at vax11.net Fri Feb 18 16:25:26 2022 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:25:26 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: Cool! It's the baby version of the two 9000/440s I recently rescued. Yours will be a lot cheaper to run. I'm still working on digesting the documentation for mine before I try to get them running. Pictures of mine in their new home: https://i.imgur.com/sVgkuG9.jpg Patrick Finnegan On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, 07:53 Joerg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > my computer club c-c-g.de could acquire the remains of a VAX9000 ! > The machine ran at the GWDG computing center in G?ttingen, Germany, > around 1993. > Parts of it were in stock of their museum for 20+ years. > > See lots of hires-pictures at > > https://c-c-g.de/fachartikel/359-vax-9000-ein-starker-exot > > (scroll to the bottom for a slide show). > > Joerg > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 18 16:42:46 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:42:46 -0000 Subject: Testing H745 Regulators In-Reply-To: References: <022d01d8130e$4d33a610$e79af230$@ntlworld.com> <562778DC-4437-49D4-8A2D-0623AE93C9F1@shaw.ca> <02ca01d8244f$04d4c960$0e7e5c20$@ntlworld.com> <3D1FA53F-DF35-4D6A-A925-A06F80DE0BE2@shaw.ca> <02e001d8249a$d93fa4e0$8bbeeea0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <030301d82518$d9c419e0$8d4c4da0$@ntlworld.com> I found a 400V part on Mouser and ordered that. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Chapman > Sent: 18 February 2022 21:23 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Testing H745 Regulators > > > I always forget that the VAC is the RMS and not the peak-to-peak. I > > will look for a minimum rating of 100V. > > 600V bridge modules are often more cost effective, and more likely to be in > stock. That's why I went with the Vishay part I used. > > If you can't find what you need due to shortages, you can also use a Faston > tab rectifier and solder wire legs to it. > > Thanks, > Jonathan From macro at orcam.me.uk Fri Feb 18 16:58:18 2022 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:58:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <72A08F01-6AA4-4E10-A99F-0971F4F0A469@comcast.net> References: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> <72A08F01-6AA4-4E10-A99F-0971F4F0A469@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > From what was just reported, the 6000 series indeed did it that way. > But I think on the 9000 it was an I/O bus too. I definitely remember > some work on XMI based I/O devices, in particular an FDDI card. And > indeed you can find a spec for that device in > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/xmi/ . Also: . Maciej From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 18 17:01:40 2022 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 23:01:40 +0000 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18/02/2022 17:16, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > Paul, > > What was the timeframe for the MPP? > > Lee The earliest DECmpp reference I can find is from 1991: https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/note?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=551.1 You can peruse the service manual here: http://manx-docs.org/collections/mds-199909/cd2/decmpp/decacsmc.pdf There are other docs that you can most easily find by searching for "DECmpp" on manx. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From dstalkowski at ody.ca Fri Feb 18 20:45:23 2022 From: dstalkowski at ody.ca (Don Stalkowski) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 21:45:23 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20220219024523.GA15549@cel2> There's an issue of DTJ dedicated to the 9000: http://dtjcd.vmsresource.org.uk/pdfs/dtj_v02-04_1990.pdf On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 11:01:40PM +0000, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 18/02/2022 17:16, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > > Paul, > > > > What was the timeframe for the MPP? > > > > Lee > > > The earliest DECmpp reference I can find is from 1991: > > https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/note?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=551.1 > > You can peruse the service manual here: > > http://manx-docs.org/collections/mds-199909/cd2/decmpp/decacsmc.pdf > > > There are other docs that you can most easily find by searching for "DECmpp" > on manx. > > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > > From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Feb 18 21:21:15 2022 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 03:21:15 +0000 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20220219032115.GA11842@lonesome.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 05:25:26PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > Yours will be a lot cheaper to run. Custom ECL chips? I think I can go with "relatively cheaper". Make sure you have a bazillion BTU of air conditioning ... (Yes, I have had experience with ECL, albeit 1970s low-scale tech. The power consumption ... eeeeeek ...) mcl From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 18 21:43:29 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:43:29 -0700 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <20220219032115.GA11842@lonesome.com> References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> <20220219032115.GA11842@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <1a70ca45-0f1c-db58-91b7-1d4ccbcdb99b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2022-02-18 8:21 p.m., Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 05:25:26PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: >> Yours will be a lot cheaper to run. > > Custom ECL chips? > > I think I can go with "relatively cheaper". > > Make sure you have a bazillion BTU of air conditioning ... > > (Yes, I have had experience with ECL, albeit 1970s low-scale tech. The > power consumption ... eeeeeek ...) > > mcl The 70's was all low scale tech. I suspect it was the high speed/edge rates more the power that kept ECL from common use. Any other views on this topic. Ben, who only had access to RADIO SHACK in the 70's. PS: Still grumbling about buying life time tubes at a big price, just to see all tubes discontinued a year or two later. From glg at grebus.com Fri Feb 18 19:00:17 2022 From: glg at grebus.com (Gary Grebus) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:00:17 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <786D0AD1-BE3D-452C-802A-9EDB2BEA7EE0@comcast.net> References: <8daf9574-a4f6-2ab4-9211-2dd82561e844@grebus.com> <786D0AD1-BE3D-452C-802A-9EDB2BEA7EE0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20acde61-b10a-9484-15b8-734e70b7ae36@grebus.com> On 2/18/22 15:35, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 18, 2022, at 3:18 PM, Gary Grebus wrote: >> >> On 2/18/22 09:46, Paul Koning wrote: >>> ...The 9000 also had its own I/O bus, XMI, different from BI. I don't know how its performance compares, whether it was worth the effort. >> >> XMI already existed as the system bus for the VAX 6000 series machines. I/O on the VAX 6000's was via an XMI-to-BI bridge. I don't remember the exact performance specs on XMI, but it was wider and faster than BI. >> >> XMI was then also used as one of the possible I/O buses on the VAX 10000 and AlphaServer 7000 and 8000 series machines, via a system bus to XMI bridge. So the XMI I/O adapters were common across all these series of machines. > > I didn't remember all those details, thanks. > > There also was an effort at one point to adopt FutureBus in DEC systems. We did a pile of design in the network architecture group to figure out how to handle interrupts and bus cycles efficiently; I don't remember if anything actually shipped with that stuff. > There was a FutureBus I/O subsystem for the AlphaServer 8000 series. It was a qualified, orderable option, but I can't imagine we sold very many (if any). It was done supposedly because the US Navy was standardizing on FutureBus for some application. I vaguely recall DEC made an Ethernet adapter that went on FutureBus, but you would have needed another I/O bus to have a usable system. The native I/O interface on the AlphaServer 8000 (aka TurboLaser) was one or more system bus to "hose" modules, where a "hose" was a pair of cables that provided a 32 bit data path in each direction. The hose connected to a bridge module on the target I/O bus. There was support for XMI, PCI, and FutureBus. -- Gary From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 19 01:12:01 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 07:12:01 -0000 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <030901d8255f$fdb8d7e0$f92a87a0$@ntlworld.com> I have a PDP-11/24. I have never got very far with it because of power supply problems which I am hopeful will be resolved soon. Looking at the technical manual, it describes an M9312 bootstrap/terminator module. The machine did not come with one of these. I am not sure how the machine could have been useful without it. It did work briefly before the PSU failed and I remember getting a console prompt. So, is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an operating system? Thanks Rob From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 02:29:14 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 03:29:14 -0500 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <030901d8255f$fdb8d7e0$f92a87a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <030901d8255f$fdb8d7e0$f92a87a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: You need some way to initialize the system to the peripheral that contains the.OS media. The m9312 is a general purpose co ntroller for that purpose. There are roms that install on the 9312 for almost any drive hardware. When you get a system that comes with an M9312, it will have the appropriate peripheral Rom and console ROM installed from the factory. The M9312 also had a console ROM monitor to allow a person to attach a terminal to enter bootstrap commands. But yes the *function* provided by the m9312 is necessary. Alternatively you can key in the bootstrap that tells your system how to boot your OS and communicate with your boot device. The m9312 is less useful without at least a console ROM Where are you located? Maybe someone nearby has in you could borrow just to see what you need. Bill. On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, 2:12 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have a PDP-11/24. I have never got very far with it because of power > supply problems which I am hopeful will be resolved soon. Looking at the > technical manual, it describes an M9312 bootstrap/terminator module. The > machine did not come with one of these. > > > > I am not sure how the machine could have been useful without it. It did > work > briefly before the PSU failed and I remember getting a console prompt. So, > is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an operating > system? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 19 03:17:37 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 04:17:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220219091737.8AC3318C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an operating > system? Interesting question. I don't have my -11/24 running yet, so this reply is theoretical, not tried in practice (and as we all know, the difference between theory and practice is even larger in practice than it is in theory), but here goes. The M9312 basically provides two things: 1) UNIBUS termination, and 2) boostrap ROM. To further subdivide the former, it provides 1A) analog termination (i.e. a resistance at the end of a transmission line that prevents reflections of signals passing down the otherwise un-terminated transmission lines of the bus), 1B) pullups (so those transmission lines normally float at roughly 3V, unless actively driven by one of the boards plugged into the bus) and 1C) 'SACK turnaround' (a start-up 'safety check' where an un-requested - and thus 'un-grabbed' by any device - bus grant from the CPU on start-up is 'turned around' by the terminator; this verifies that the grant lines are un-broken between the CPU and the terminator - e.g. by someone forgetting to plug in a grant jumper). 1A is not _absolutely_ necessary; this can be seen in small QBUS systems (the QBUS is, at the analog level, sort of identical to the UNIBUS; this an be seen in the use of the same transceiver chips, such as 8641's, on both) which can get away without 1A in small configurations. Whether it's needed on your -11/24 is hard to predict, theoretically; the easiest thing is to just try it and see. Note: it may 'work' without it, but not be as _reliable_ as with it. 1B _is_ necessary, but can be provided anywhere on the bus; most UNIBUS/QBUS CPUs have it built in, and so does the KDF11-U of the -11/24: see pg. of MP01028. 1C is required by _some_ UNIBUS CPUs (ISTR that the -11/04 won't run without it), but the KDF11's in general don't; e.g. the -11/23 definitely runs without it. The KDF11-U might have outboard circuitry to require it, but I'm too lazy to grovel over the prints to see. Easiest to just try it and see. For 2, it all depends on what you're booting from. E.g. the RK11 has a simple enough bootstrap that you can just enter it manually (although it gets old after a while - I remember re-'programming' (think 'soldering iron' :-) a castoff BM-792 someone gave us for our -11/40 so I wouldn't have to). But if you're loading it over the console serial line, e.g. with PDP11GUI, you don't need any ROM bootstrap - the built in console ODT will be enough. You can also load a bootstrap that way; I was booting off the QSIC RK11 with a boostrap loaded over the console serial line; that was faster than the bootstrap in the BDV11. This requires finding - or writing - a bootstrap, which for later DEC mass storage controllers is not trivial. YMMV. TLDR version - probably not! Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 19 03:33:55 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:33:55 -0000 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: References: <030901d8255f$fdb8d7e0$f92a87a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <031401d82573$d0b43f50$721cbdf0$@ntlworld.com> I am in the UK (Manchester). I suspect there are some people I know who would be able to lend me one. The bit I am confused about is that I got a console prompt with just the CPU (M7133) and Unibus Map Module (M7134) installed. Presumably I could type in a bootstrap program from there? Regards Rob From: Bill Degnan Sent: 19 February 2022 08:29 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? You need some way to initialize the system to the peripheral that contains the.OS media. The m9312 is a general purpose co ntroller for that purpose. There are roms that install on the 9312 for almost any drive hardware. When you get a system that comes with an M9312, it will have the appropriate peripheral Rom and console ROM installed from the factory. The M9312 also had a console ROM monitor to allow a person to attach a terminal to enter bootstrap commands. But yes the *function* provided by the m9312 is necessary. Alternatively you can key in the bootstrap that tells your system how to boot your OS and communicate with your boot device. The m9312 is less useful without at least a console ROM Where are you located? Maybe someone nearby has in you could borrow just to see what you need. Bill. On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, 2:12 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: I have a PDP-11/24. I have never got very far with it because of power supply problems which I am hopeful will be resolved soon. Looking at the technical manual, it describes an M9312 bootstrap/terminator module. The machine did not come with one of these. I am not sure how the machine could have been useful without it. It did work briefly before the PSU failed and I remember getting a console prompt. So, is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an operating system? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 19 03:45:58 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:45:58 -0000 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <20220219091737.8AC3318C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220219091737.8AC3318C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <031b01d82575$7f9e1ee0$7eda5ca0$@ntlworld.com> I saw this reply later than the previous one. It confirms that I don't *need* it for booting, but it would be useful. I suspect some of the other cards that were in the machine might do the necessary termination stuff. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via > cctalk > Sent: 19 February 2022 09:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an operating > > system? > > Interesting question. I don't have my -11/24 running yet, so this reply is > theoretical, not tried in practice (and as we all know, the difference between > theory and practice is even larger in practice than it is in theory), but here > goes. > > The M9312 basically provides two things: 1) UNIBUS termination, and 2) > boostrap ROM. > > To further subdivide the former, it provides 1A) analog termination (i.e. a > resistance at the end of a transmission line that prevents reflections of > signals passing down the otherwise un-terminated transmission lines of the > bus), 1B) pullups (so those transmission lines normally float at roughly 3V, > unless actively driven by one of the boards plugged into the bus) and 1C) > 'SACK turnaround' (a start-up 'safety check' where an un-requested - and > thus 'un-grabbed' by any device - bus grant from the CPU on start-up is > 'turned around' by the terminator; this verifies that the grant lines are un- > broken between the CPU and the terminator - e.g. by someone forgetting to > plug in a grant jumper). > > 1A is not _absolutely_ necessary; this can be seen in small QBUS systems > (the QBUS is, at the analog level, sort of identical to the UNIBUS; this an be > seen in the use of the same transceiver chips, such as 8641's, on both) which > can get away without 1A in small configurations. Whether it's needed on your > -11/24 is hard to predict, theoretically; the easiest thing is to just try it and > see. Note: it may 'work' without it, but not be as _reliable_ as with it. > > 1B _is_ necessary, but can be provided anywhere on the bus; most > UNIBUS/QBUS CPUs have it built in, and so does the KDF11-U of the -11/24: > see pg. of MP01028. > > 1C is required by _some_ UNIBUS CPUs (ISTR that the -11/04 won't run > without it), but the KDF11's in general don't; e.g. the -11/23 definitely runs > without it. The KDF11-U might have outboard circuitry to require it, but I'm > too lazy to grovel over the prints to see. Easiest to just try it and see. > > > For 2, it all depends on what you're booting from. E.g. the RK11 has a simple > enough bootstrap that you can just enter it manually (although it gets old > after a while - I remember re-'programming' (think 'soldering iron' :-) a > castoff BM-792 someone gave us for our -11/40 so I wouldn't have to). > > But if you're loading it over the console serial line, e.g. with PDP11GUI, you > don't need any ROM bootstrap - the built in console ODT will be enough. > You can also load a bootstrap that way; I was booting off the QSIC RK11 with a > boostrap loaded over the console serial line; that was faster than the > bootstrap in the BDV11. This requires finding - or writing - a bootstrap, which > for later DEC mass storage controllers is not trivial. > > YMMV. > > > TLDR version - probably not! > > Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 19 05:22:50 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 06:22:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220219112250.3F81818C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > I suspect some of the other cards that were in the machine might do the > necessary termination stuff. Different answers for each part of the functionality. 1A and 1C fundamentally have be at the end of the bus, physically. So, unlikely; since _other_ cards aren't, generally, designed to go there. 1B could be anywhere, but I've basically never seen anything but a CPU or a terminator with 1B functionality - probably in part because the same physical components uually do both 1A and 1B. (Oddball exception: M981 UNIBUS jumper, in the -11/40 - but that's 'sort of' part of the CPU.) 2, yes. E.g. the KT24 UNIBUS map has sockets to hold bootstrap PROMs. (Compatible with the M9312's.) Others, too; e.g. the KTJ11-B UNIBUS adapter (although that is not seen in an -11/24). Maybe others, but I can't recall off the top of my head. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 19 07:53:26 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:53:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: KK11-A cache for -11/34A on eBait Message-ID: <20220219135326.633F118C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Anyone want a KK11-A: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275173894774 US$200 sounds like a lot, I know, but KK11-A'S and FP11-A's are going for that much; an FP11-A just went for US$250. And KK11-A's are rare; this is he first one in a while. Noel From cube1 at charter.net Sat Feb 19 08:02:17 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:02:17 -0600 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <031b01d82575$7f9e1ee0$7eda5ca0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20220219091737.8AC3318C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031b01d82575$7f9e1ee0$7eda5ca0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7696fa20-1d5e-36f3-2e09-e95361f89fb9@charter.net> My 11/24 does *not* have an M9312. My UNIBUS out from the processor backplane goes to an RK611, and then to a VT11. I have an M9301 at the end, in the VT11 UNIBUS OUT slot. I didn't pull the map card, but I am 99.9999% sure that my boot ROMs (RL11, RK611) are on my UNIBUS map card. The UNIBUS MAP card has space for 5 ROMS: the console/diagnostic (which maybe isn't even socketed), and including the sockets 4 device ROMs. You do want a terminator that provides a SACK turnaround capability so that the machine doesn't hang accessing an address that doesn't respond on the UNIBUS. One option might be for you to build a UNIPROBE card, perhaps sans the LEDs to minimize the need for SMT devices to deal with. I do have several spare M9312's and could sell you one - $50. I can deal with shipping to the UK. But I suspect you will be able to find someone from the UK on this list that has spare(s). JRJ On 2/19/2022 3:45 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: > I saw this reply later than the previous one. It confirms that I don't > *need* it for booting, but it would be useful. > > I suspect some of the other cards that were in the machine might do the > necessary termination stuff. > > Thanks > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via >> cctalk >> Sent: 19 February 2022 09:18 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Subject: Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? >> >> > From: Rob Jarratt >> >> > is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an > operating >> > system? >> >> Interesting question. I don't have my -11/24 running yet, so this reply is >> theoretical, not tried in practice (and as we all know, the difference > between >> theory and practice is even larger in practice than it is in theory), but > here >> goes. >> >> The M9312 basically provides two things: 1) UNIBUS termination, and 2) >> boostrap ROM. >> >> To further subdivide the former, it provides 1A) analog termination (i.e. > a >> resistance at the end of a transmission line that prevents reflections of >> signals passing down the otherwise un-terminated transmission lines of the >> bus), 1B) pullups (so those transmission lines normally float at roughly > 3V, >> unless actively driven by one of the boards plugged into the bus) and 1C) >> 'SACK turnaround' (a start-up 'safety check' where an un-requested - and >> thus 'un-grabbed' by any device - bus grant from the CPU on start-up is >> 'turned around' by the terminator; this verifies that the grant lines are > un- >> broken between the CPU and the terminator - e.g. by someone forgetting to >> plug in a grant jumper). >> >> 1A is not _absolutely_ necessary; this can be seen in small QBUS systems >> (the QBUS is, at the analog level, sort of identical to the UNIBUS; this > an be >> seen in the use of the same transceiver chips, such as 8641's, on both) > which >> can get away without 1A in small configurations. Whether it's needed on > your >> -11/24 is hard to predict, theoretically; the easiest thing is to just try > it and >> see. Note: it may 'work' without it, but not be as _reliable_ as with it. >> >> 1B _is_ necessary, but can be provided anywhere on the bus; most >> UNIBUS/QBUS CPUs have it built in, and so does the KDF11-U of the -11/24: >> see pg. of MP01028. >> >> 1C is required by _some_ UNIBUS CPUs (ISTR that the -11/04 won't run >> without it), but the KDF11's in general don't; e.g. the -11/23 definitely > runs >> without it. The KDF11-U might have outboard circuitry to require it, but > I'm >> too lazy to grovel over the prints to see. Easiest to just try it and see. >> >> >> For 2, it all depends on what you're booting from. E.g. the RK11 has a > simple >> enough bootstrap that you can just enter it manually (although it gets old >> after a while - I remember re-'programming' (think 'soldering iron' :-) a >> castoff BM-792 someone gave us for our -11/40 so I wouldn't have to). >> >> But if you're loading it over the console serial line, e.g. with PDP11GUI, > you >> don't need any ROM bootstrap - the built in console ODT will be enough. >> You can also load a bootstrap that way; I was booting off the QSIC RK11 > with a >> boostrap loaded over the console serial line; that was faster than the >> bootstrap in the BDV11. This requires finding - or writing - a bootstrap, > which >> for later DEC mass storage controllers is not trivial. >> >> YMMV. >> >> >> TLDR version - probably not! >> >> Noel > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Feb 19 08:02:17 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:02:17 -0600 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <031b01d82575$7f9e1ee0$7eda5ca0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20220219091737.8AC3318C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031b01d82575$7f9e1ee0$7eda5ca0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7696fa20-1d5e-36f3-2e09-e95361f89fb9@charter.net> My 11/24 does *not* have an M9312. My UNIBUS out from the processor backplane goes to an RK611, and then to a VT11. I have an M9301 at the end, in the VT11 UNIBUS OUT slot. I didn't pull the map card, but I am 99.9999% sure that my boot ROMs (RL11, RK611) are on my UNIBUS map card. The UNIBUS MAP card has space for 5 ROMS: the console/diagnostic (which maybe isn't even socketed), and including the sockets 4 device ROMs. You do want a terminator that provides a SACK turnaround capability so that the machine doesn't hang accessing an address that doesn't respond on the UNIBUS. One option might be for you to build a UNIPROBE card, perhaps sans the LEDs to minimize the need for SMT devices to deal with. I do have several spare M9312's and could sell you one - $50. I can deal with shipping to the UK. But I suspect you will be able to find someone from the UK on this list that has spare(s). JRJ On 2/19/2022 3:45 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: > I saw this reply later than the previous one. It confirms that I don't > *need* it for booting, but it would be useful. > > I suspect some of the other cards that were in the machine might do the > necessary termination stuff. > > Thanks > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via >> cctalk >> Sent: 19 February 2022 09:18 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Subject: Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? >> >> > From: Rob Jarratt >> >> > is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an > operating >> > system? >> >> Interesting question. I don't have my -11/24 running yet, so this reply is >> theoretical, not tried in practice (and as we all know, the difference > between >> theory and practice is even larger in practice than it is in theory), but > here >> goes. >> >> The M9312 basically provides two things: 1) UNIBUS termination, and 2) >> boostrap ROM. >> >> To further subdivide the former, it provides 1A) analog termination (i.e. > a >> resistance at the end of a transmission line that prevents reflections of >> signals passing down the otherwise un-terminated transmission lines of the >> bus), 1B) pullups (so those transmission lines normally float at roughly > 3V, >> unless actively driven by one of the boards plugged into the bus) and 1C) >> 'SACK turnaround' (a start-up 'safety check' where an un-requested - and >> thus 'un-grabbed' by any device - bus grant from the CPU on start-up is >> 'turned around' by the terminator; this verifies that the grant lines are > un- >> broken between the CPU and the terminator - e.g. by someone forgetting to >> plug in a grant jumper). >> >> 1A is not _absolutely_ necessary; this can be seen in small QBUS systems >> (the QBUS is, at the analog level, sort of identical to the UNIBUS; this > an be >> seen in the use of the same transceiver chips, such as 8641's, on both) > which >> can get away without 1A in small configurations. Whether it's needed on > your >> -11/24 is hard to predict, theoretically; the easiest thing is to just try > it and >> see. Note: it may 'work' without it, but not be as _reliable_ as with it. >> >> 1B _is_ necessary, but can be provided anywhere on the bus; most >> UNIBUS/QBUS CPUs have it built in, and so does the KDF11-U of the -11/24: >> see pg. of MP01028. >> >> 1C is required by _some_ UNIBUS CPUs (ISTR that the -11/04 won't run >> without it), but the KDF11's in general don't; e.g. the -11/23 definitely > runs >> without it. The KDF11-U might have outboard circuitry to require it, but > I'm >> too lazy to grovel over the prints to see. Easiest to just try it and see. >> >> >> For 2, it all depends on what you're booting from. E.g. the RK11 has a > simple >> enough bootstrap that you can just enter it manually (although it gets old >> after a while - I remember re-'programming' (think 'soldering iron' :-) a >> castoff BM-792 someone gave us for our -11/40 so I wouldn't have to). >> >> But if you're loading it over the console serial line, e.g. with PDP11GUI, > you >> don't need any ROM bootstrap - the built in console ODT will be enough. >> You can also load a bootstrap that way; I was booting off the QSIC RK11 > with a >> boostrap loaded over the console serial line; that was faster than the >> bootstrap in the BDV11. This requires finding - or writing - a bootstrap, > which >> for later DEC mass storage controllers is not trivial. >> >> YMMV. >> >> >> TLDR version - probably not! >> >> Noel > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Feb 19 08:29:06 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:29:06 -0500 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <031401d82573$d0b43f50$721cbdf0$@ntlworld.com> References: <030901d8255f$fdb8d7e0$f92a87a0$@ntlworld.com> <031401d82573$d0b43f50$721cbdf0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5c40b91a-f064-16d2-bbe9-5310de2aab02@alembic.crystel.com> > The bit I am confused about is that I got a console prompt with just the CPU (M7133) and Unibus Map Module (M7134) installed. Presumably I could type in a bootstrap program from there? Sure, that's just normal ODT if I recall. On my 5.25 inch 11/24 I have the CPU, MMU, a 1mb memory card, H7273s in the other slots on the way down, a RL11, a RX21, and a terminator (I forget if it's a 9302 or 9312). C > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > From: Bill Degnan > Sent: 19 February 2022 08:29 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? > > > > You need some way to initialize the system to the peripheral that contains the.OS media. The m9312 is a general purpose co ntroller for that purpose. There are roms that install on the 9312 for almost any drive hardware. When you get a system that comes with an M9312, it will have the appropriate peripheral Rom and console ROM installed from the factory. The M9312 also had a console ROM monitor to allow a person to attach a terminal to enter bootstrap commands. > > > > But yes the *function* provided by the m9312 is necessary. > > > > Alternatively you can key in the bootstrap that tells your system how to boot your OS and communicate with your boot device. > > > > The m9312 is less useful without at least a console ROM > > > > Where are you located? Maybe someone nearby has in you could borrow just to see what you need. > > Bill. > > > > On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, 2:12 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > I have a PDP-11/24. I have never got very far with it because of power > supply problems which I am hopeful will be resolved soon. Looking at the > technical manual, it describes an M9312 bootstrap/terminator module. The > machine did not come with one of these. > > > > I am not sure how the machine could have been useful without it. It did work > briefly before the PSU failed and I remember getting a console prompt. So, > is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an operating > system? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > From bpettitx at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 10:57:15 2022 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (BILLY PETTIT) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Stuff - Pleasanton, Calif. Message-ID: <1879909673.703687.1645289835690@connect.xfinity.com> I'm downsizing. Have to get rid of everything. The driveway is filled systems test equipment, components, parts, books, etc. Several thousand TTL chips prototyping boards. Come out and take what you. Junk Bees will be here on Tuesday for what is left. Call 925-998-9968 for directions. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 11:03:38 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:03:38 -0500 Subject: DEC AXV11-C analog board In-Reply-To: References: <2d450458-6654-aa81-275b-77abe1642e06@comcast.net> <604edcbb-9d9d-8329-bc77-e22a7917c606@ieee.org> <5aa08a50-33de-0fcf-d1cd-56725739e8fd@comcast.net> <11a8eba9-b1a4-a379-3957-4c47355dbf0c@ieee.org> <3765a64b-15df-06c8-7746-170f6993ea12@pico-systems.com> <444d68e0-df0f-b04b-0ab1-549bf1f5e7c6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6653b71d-bd95-0408-f558-cad496dc35ae@comcast.net> Put one together with back to back 9V batteries and a 5K pot.? Does exactly what I wanted. The Data Translation board is set up for SE inputs and +/-10 V input range. Was able to apply a series of DC voltages to the DT2762 board and record the A/D value using ODT (tedious, but works OK). Using Octave (Linux) was able to convert the A/D 2's complement Octal numbers to decimal and plot input voltage versus A/D decimal value.? Expected to see a nice clean linear plot. The one DT2762 seemed to 'drop' bits, while the newer one seemed OK. Next step is to capture a time varying signal and see if the A/D output follows the input correctly.? I'd like to use Macro-11 to manage the A/D board and Fortran to deal with the data. What is the Fortran or F77 interface with Macro-11 routines? Doug On 2/13/2022 3:40 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > Two batteries in series, using the ?middle? as 0V reference. > The ?+? is V+, the ?-? is V-. > > Van: Douglas Taylor via cctalk > Verzonden: zondag 13 februari 2022 18:05 > Aan: Jon Elson via cctalk > Onderwerp: Re: DEC AXV11-C analog board > > Is it possible to construct a battery driven circuit that > will present both positive and negative voltages at the > input? A bridge of some sort? > > Doug > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Feb 19 11:06:17 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:06:17 -0500 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: References: <030901d8255f$fdb8d7e0$f92a87a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3eecac25-7322-da26-2a8f-eb5ccf4fc75a@alembic.crystel.com> Speaking of which, what does the console rom "DO"? Is it like the interactive boot from a pdp11/23+ or better where you can type in the device name, run little memory diagnostics and such? I recall that with the real boot chips on a unibus 11/34 you could just jump to the location of the ROM and the CPU would start right up unprompted. C On 2/19/2022 3:29 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > You need some way to initialize the system to the peripheral that contains > the.OS media. The m9312 is a general purpose co ntroller for that > purpose. There are roms that install on the 9312 for almost any drive > hardware. When you get a system that comes with an M9312, it will have the > appropriate peripheral Rom and console ROM installed from the factory. The > M9312 also had a console ROM monitor to allow a person to attach a terminal > to enter bootstrap commands. > > But yes the *function* provided by the m9312 is necessary. > > Alternatively you can key in the bootstrap that tells your system how to > boot your OS and communicate with your boot device. > > The m9312 is less useful without at least a console ROM > > Where are you located? Maybe someone nearby has in you could borrow just > to see what you need. > Bill. > > On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, 2:12 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > >> I have a PDP-11/24. I have never got very far with it because of power >> supply problems which I am hopeful will be resolved soon. Looking at the >> technical manual, it describes an M9312 bootstrap/terminator module. The >> machine did not come with one of these. >> >> >> >> I am not sure how the machine could have been useful without it. It did >> work >> briefly before the PSU failed and I remember getting a console prompt. So, >> is the M9312 essential to ever get this machine to boot up an operating >> system? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Feb 19 12:28:21 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:28:21 -0600 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <1a70ca45-0f1c-db58-91b7-1d4ccbcdb99b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> <20220219032115.GA11842@lonesome.com> <1a70ca45-0f1c-db58-91b7-1d4ccbcdb99b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8821ab12-0282-5dbb-3f7c-a8937725b7ff@pico-systems.com> On 2/18/22 21:43, ben via cctalk wrote: > > The 70's was all low scale tech. I suspect it was the high > speed/edge rates more the power that kept ECL from common > use. Any other views on this topic. Ben, who only had > access to RADIO SHACK in the 70's. > PS: Still grumbling about buying life time tubes at a big > price, > just to see all tubes discontinued a year or two later. Edge rates on pedestrian MECL 10K were not crazy fast.? Rise and fall of about 1 ns, but the gate propagation delay was ALSO about 1 ns, so that was a lot faster than TTL.? ECL was very easy to work with, crosstalk was not a common issue.? But, you HAD to terminate any line over a foot, and better to make it 6" to be sure.? And, the termination and pulldown resistors ate a LOT of power! Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 19 12:51:00 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:51:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220219185100.3537618C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay Jaeger > SACK turnaround capability so that the machine doesn't hang accessing > an address that doesn't respond on the UNIBUS. Umm, I think you're mixing up i) grant timeouts and ii) master-slave timeouts. All PDP-11 CPUs have master-slave timeout handling; after a short delay (10usec or so) with no SSYN (UNIBUS) or BRPLY (QBUS), they resume processing, and take an immediate trap. Most OS's (UNIX, for sure) use this when they are sizing memory. Grant timeouts are less well-documented. I think most CPUs deal with this (not receiving a SACK 'fairly quickly' in response to a grant); I think they basically just ignore t, and keep processing. (That is because there are legitimate causes for not having a grant ackknowledged; e.g. if a device is requesting an interrupt, and then just as the CPU sends out a grant, the device is reset, the device won't respond to the grant, since it's no longer trying to do an interrupt.) The 'SACK turnaround' I think is only used with system health verification; the system wants to make sure that the grant lines aren't broken anywhere. (That's because _if_ a grant line is broken, devices downstream of the break can no longer do interrupts, which generally _will_ hang the overall system, when interrupts don't work as usual.) To do this, the CPU sends an _un-requested_ grant out (on startup), and the SACK turnaround circuitry on the terminator turns it around and sends it back to the CPU; when the CPU sees that, it knows the grant line has no break. It probably caused more problems than it caught, which is my guess as to why no QBUS machine has/uses it. The -11/34 (not the /34A) has something unusual for grant timeouts, but I forget the details. I'll look it up. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 13:15:34 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 14:15:34 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <8821ab12-0282-5dbb-3f7c-a8937725b7ff@pico-systems.com> References: <0a294ed7-0c5c-18f1-241c-30a9dce29291@gmail.com> <20220219032115.GA11842@lonesome.com> <1a70ca45-0f1c-db58-91b7-1d4ccbcdb99b@jetnet.ab.ca> <8821ab12-0282-5dbb-3f7c-a8937725b7ff@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <67ECB1E1-15D2-4AE6-A122-DA433DCFAA85@comcast.net> > On Feb 19, 2022, at 1:28 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/18/22 21:43, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> The 70's was all low scale tech. I suspect it was the high speed/edge rates more the power that kept ECL from common use. Any other views on this topic. Ben, who only had access to RADIO SHACK in the 70's. >> PS: Still grumbling about buying life time tubes at a big price, >> just to see all tubes discontinued a year or two later. > > Edge rates on pedestrian MECL 10K were not crazy fast. Rise and fall of about 1 ns, but the gate propagation delay was ALSO about 1 ns, so that was a lot faster than TTL. ECL was very easy to work with, crosstalk was not a common issue. But, you HAD to terminate any line over a foot, and better to make it 6" to be sure. And, the termination and pulldown resistors ate a LOT of power! I think there are a number of reasons why ECL was niche technology. One is that TTL was fast enough for most applications. Another is that more people knew TTL, and ECL requires (some) different design techniques. Yet another is that higher levels of integration appeared in CMOS but not ECL. Yet another is that ECL was expensive compared to the alternatives, partly because of the low integration and partly because of the low volume. In the mid-1980s (I think) there was a very interesting project at DEC Western Research Lab to build a custom VSLI ECL processor chip. A lot of amazing design was done for it. One is power and cooling work; it was estimated to consume about 100 watts which in that day was utterly unheard of, by a substantial margin. This was solved by a package with integral heat pipe. Another issue was the fact that ECL foundries each had their own design rules, and they were shutting down frequently. So the CAD system needed to be able to let you specify a design where the fab rules were inputs to the layout algorithms. The design took great advantage of ECL-specific logic capabilities like wire OR or stacked pass transistors. I remember that the CAD system let the designer work at multiple levels in the same chip: at the rectangle level (for memory arrays), transistor level, gate level, and even write some constructs as programming language notations. For example a 64-bit register could be specified as: for (i = 0; i < 64; i++) { transistor-level schematic of a one-bit register } Originally the idea was to use this for a 1 GHz Alpha; I think it ended up being a 1 GHz MIPS processor. Possibly the project was killed before it quite finished. That seems to have been one of the very few examples of ECL going beyond SSI. The physical possibility existed; the economics did not. paul From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Feb 19 14:11:06 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:11:06 -0800 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <20220219185100.3537618C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220219185100.3537618C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <957FABAE-27A7-4B9E-BDA9-4413E60971AC@fritzm.org> > On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > The -11/34 (not the /34A) has something unusual for grant timeouts, but I > forget the details. I'll look it up. I just did an 11/34 restoration last year, so this is fresh in mind ? I think you are thinking of the M9302, Noel: a far-side terminator card with integrated SACK turnaround? ?FritzM. From me at larbob.org Sat Feb 19 14:34:55 2022 From: me at larbob.org (Larkin Nickle) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:34:55 -0500 Subject: Red Hat Linux 7.2 for Alpha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9544e121-b4af-0bb4-8804-24e95473bfbc@larbob.org> Try these: https://mirror.rqsall.com/misc/rh-alpha/7.2/ Larkin From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 14:48:34 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:48:34 -0500 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <957FABAE-27A7-4B9E-BDA9-4413E60971AC@fritzm.org> References: <20220219185100.3537618C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <957FABAE-27A7-4B9E-BDA9-4413E60971AC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Here is how I used mine on a PDP 11/05. Literally right now. 1. Boot up the system and use the front panel to load 165020(8) 2. Run from this address 3. My system is set to communicate with a Teletype, so it comes to life and prints the status of the CPU registers to the teletype 4. I type in L 0 to load memory address 000(8) 5. I have BASIC stored to load from this address, so the system sends READY to the teletype and I can then run BASIC commands. THe M9312 is a luxury, I could just as easily just loaded 000 from the start and it would have initiated BASIC. Bill On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 3:11 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > The -11/34 (not the /34A) has something unusual for grant timeouts, but I > > forget the details. I'll look it up. > > I just did an 11/34 restoration last year, so this is fresh in mind ? I > think you are thinking of the M9302, Noel: a far-side terminator card with > integrated SACK turnaround? > > ?FritzM. > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Feb 19 15:40:20 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:40:20 -0800 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <957FABAE-27A7-4B9E-BDA9-4413E60971AC@fritzm.org> References: <20220219185100.3537618C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <957FABAE-27A7-4B9E-BDA9-4413E60971AC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > The -11/34 (not the /34A) has something unusual for grant timeouts, but I > forget the details. I'll look it up. > On Feb 19, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > I just did an 11/34 restoration last year, so this is fresh in mind ? I think you are thinking of the M9302, Noel: a far-side terminator card with integrated SACK turnaround? A few additional details, in case it is helpful: IIRC, the 11/34 doesn?t have SACK timeout implemented in the CPU cards (the /34A did add this, however.) So without an M9302 on the far end of the bus, the CPU could hang in a situation with an unacknowledged grant (which I think would be somewhat rare, but possible). I believe it is possible to boot an 11/34 at least as far as a ROM boot monitor with a non-SACK (M930 or such) terminator on the far side. An 11/34 with a M9302 SACK terminator _will_ hang, though, with a broken grant chain ? the floating grant will trigger the M9302 to continuously assert SACK locking the bus. ?Better? CPUs, which used SACK timeout instead of turn-around, were more robust this way. Incidentally, I think the 11/34 was contemporaneous with, and usually found with, the slightly earlier M9301 ROM terminator on the near side, rather than the later M9312, though both should work fine. cheers, ?FritzM. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 18:05:36 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:05:36 -0500 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: References: <20220219185100.3537618C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <957FABAE-27A7-4B9E-BDA9-4413E60971AC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 4:40 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > On Feb 19, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > A few additional details, in case it is helpful: > > IIRC, the 11/34 doesn?t have SACK timeout implemented in the CPU cards (the /34A did add this, however.) So without an M9302 on the far end of the bus, the CPU could hang in a situation with an unacknowledged grant (which I think would be somewhat rare, but possible). I believe it is possible to boot an 11/34 at least as far as a ROM boot monitor with a non-SACK (M930 or such) terminator on the far side. Thank you for bringing this up - I have a stack of KD11-E and KD11-EA board sets (and MOS memory and all the other things). I've been trying to get them to work in a BA11-L that started off life as a PDP-11/04 and I've swapped the DD11-DK for a DD11-P backplane but I wasn't having any luck getting things to run. I did find a bad 7402 in the limited function front panel but that was the only fault I found (so far). I've checked the grant chain but what I haven't done is ensure I have the right combo of terminators and CPU cards. I'm used to configuring machines, but I honestly forget if the experiences I had in the 80s were 11/34 or 11/34A. This gives me something to go back and check. I was about ready to start hacking on an M9302 to sniff out the SACK logic. Now I'll go back and check the docs and make sure I'm putting together a set of cards that's going to want to play nice with each other. I have plenty of dual-height grant cards. I'm definitely _not_ having issues with NPR. Thanks! -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 04:33:45 2022 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 04:33:45 -0600 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets Message-ID: Does anyone have a video or printed procedure they can send me or point me somewhere that could help? Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 04:33:45 2022 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 04:33:45 -0600 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets Message-ID: Does anyone have a video or printed procedure they can send me or point me somewhere that could help? Thanks, Paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 09:46:12 2022 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 09:46:12 -0600 Subject: SGI Indigo keyboard / mouse / converter wanted Message-ID: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> Hi all, A friend of mine has just acquired an Indigo (R4k with XZ graphics option), but of course it's the usual story and the keyboard/rodent had been lost. In absence of the genuine items they'd still be happy with a USB converter (at least for the time being), but it seems those are difficult to come by at present, too. Does anyone happen to have a surplus converter suitable for these machines, and/or keyboard/rodent? (according to sgistuff keyboard is p/n 9500801 and mouse p/n 9150800) [side note: they mentioned a USB converter, but I'm pretty sure years ago someone had implemented an adapter to PC-friendly PS/2 parts, too. I'm sure something like would do the trick, too] thanks, Jules From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 09:56:47 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:56:47 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo keyboard / mouse / converter wanted In-Reply-To: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> References: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the Wombat adapter would work (?) On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:46 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > A friend of mine has just acquired an Indigo (R4k with XZ graphics > option), > but of course it's the usual story and the keyboard/rodent had been lost. > In absence of the genuine items they'd still be happy with a USB converter > (at least for the time being), but it seems those are difficult to come by > at present, too. > > Does anyone happen to have a surplus converter suitable for these > machines, > and/or keyboard/rodent? (according to sgistuff keyboard is p/n 9500801 and > mouse p/n 9150800) > > [side note: they mentioned a USB converter, but I'm pretty sure years ago > someone had implemented an adapter to PC-friendly PS/2 parts, too. I'm > sure > something like would do the trick, too] > > thanks, > > Jules > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Feb 20 10:26:40 2022 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 11:26:40 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo keyboard / mouse / converter wanted In-Reply-To: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> References: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42ffa9f4-1b6c-014c-62e2-2f5e5083a48c@comcast.net> Jules, I don't have a solution, only the same problem, but with a Tektronix 4200 series graphics terminal. Keyboards are rare, there is one on ebay for $700, yikes! However, I do have 2 of these terminals and one working keyboard.? Was starting to go down the path of intercepting the startup, POST exchange that occurs, then trying to adapt a common PS/2 keyboard. I was looking for minimal capability, not perfect emulation. Doug On 2/20/2022 10:46 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > A friend of mine has just acquired an Indigo (R4k with XZ graphics > option), but of course it's the usual story and the keyboard/rodent > had been lost. In absence of the genuine items they'd still be happy > with a USB converter (at least for the time being), but it seems those > are difficult to come by at present, too. > > Does anyone happen to have a surplus converter suitable for these > machines, and/or keyboard/rodent? (according to sgistuff keyboard is > p/n 9500801 and mouse p/n 9150800) > > [side note: they mentioned a USB converter, but I'm pretty sure years > ago someone had implemented an adapter to PC-friendly PS/2 parts, too. > I'm sure something like would do the trick, too] > > thanks, > > Jules > From dillera at dillernet.com Sun Feb 20 10:36:16 2022 From: dillera at dillernet.com (Andrew Diller) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 11:36:16 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo keyboard / mouse / converter wanted In-Reply-To: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> References: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D4745ED-0DF9-49B9-881B-264214C1EE9B@dillernet.com> Indigo1 is not PS/2, even though the connector looks that way. You need to have the "onxy" keyboard/mouse or get an adapter from Drakware. Plugging in a PS/2 device will harm the SGI and or the keyboard. https://www.drakware.com/shop/p/indigousb You can build your own but I don't have the details, perhaps Drak does and is willing to share them. -andy > On Feb 20, 2022, at 10:46 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi all, > > A friend of mine has just acquired an Indigo (R4k with XZ graphics option), but of course it's the usual story and the keyboard/rodent had been lost. In absence of the genuine items they'd still be happy with a USB converter (at least for the time being), but it seems those are difficult to come by at present, too. > > Does anyone happen to have a surplus converter suitable for these machines, and/or keyboard/rodent? (according to sgistuff keyboard is p/n 9500801 and mouse p/n 9150800) > > [side note: they mentioned a USB converter, but I'm pretty sure years ago someone had implemented an adapter to PC-friendly PS/2 parts, too. I'm sure something like would do the trick, too] > > thanks, > > Jules > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 10:47:12 2022 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:47:12 -0600 Subject: SGI Indigo keyboard / mouse / converter wanted In-Reply-To: <3D4745ED-0DF9-49B9-881B-264214C1EE9B@dillernet.com> References: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> <3D4745ED-0DF9-49B9-881B-264214C1EE9B@dillernet.com> Message-ID: <94b991e8-719e-8460-fbc4-dfab2db7c4ce@gmail.com> On 2/20/22 10:36, Andrew Diller wrote: > Indigo1 is not PS/2, even though the connector looks that way. Correct. I was just pointing out that I think I recall someone years ago implementing a converter between the Indigo's proprietary protocols and "modern" (at the time) PS/2 keyboards/mice - and that one of those would likely also be suit my friend's needs in absence of an even-more-modern USB version. > You need to > have the "onxy" keyboard/mouse or get an adapter from Drakware. The Drakware is the one that my friend mentioned to me, and they're out of stock at the moment, hence them seeking an alternative (and/or real devices) :-( Jules From dillera at dillernet.com Sun Feb 20 11:08:56 2022 From: dillera at dillernet.com (Andrew Diller) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 12:08:56 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo keyboard / mouse / converter wanted In-Reply-To: <94b991e8-719e-8460-fbc4-dfab2db7c4ce@gmail.com> References: <08e72ecb-96bd-d1f4-1839-2b55059db827@gmail.com> <3D4745ED-0DF9-49B9-881B-264214C1EE9B@dillernet.com> <94b991e8-719e-8460-fbc4-dfab2db7c4ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: There was a converter a few years ago that went from 'onyx' to PS/2. That seems to have vanished from ebay. I have some and they say "CKCOMPUTERSYSTEMS" on them - perhaps your friend can chase that down. The Drak goes to USB which may be better or worse than the CK adapter depending on your keyboard fetish. Real SGI 'onyx' devices pop up on ebay every once and a while. Make sure they are not SGI PS/2 (which Indigo2 and all later SGIs actually used) - the 'onyx' style will have the mouse attachment to the keyboard itself (the computer just has one DIN connector for m/k not 2 like actual PS/2 devices). http://www.sgistuff.net/hardware/other/input.html There are a very few SGI vendors around with parts. http://www.mashek.com/SGIparts/Indigo.php Lists some available. These may seem like high prices till you watch an ebay listing go higher. -andy > On Feb 20, 2022, at 11:47 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/20/22 10:36, Andrew Diller wrote: >> Indigo1 is not PS/2, even though the connector looks that way. > > Correct. I was just pointing out that I think I recall someone years ago implementing a converter between the Indigo's proprietary protocols and "modern" (at the time) PS/2 keyboards/mice - and that one of those would likely also be suit my friend's needs in absence of an even-more-modern USB version. > >> You need to have the "onxy" keyboard/mouse or get an adapter from Drakware. > > The Drakware is the one that my friend mentioned to me, and they're out of stock at the moment, hence them seeking an alternative (and/or real devices) :-( > > Jules From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 12:10:13 2022 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed Message-ID: I heard Butler Lampson once exclaim that ECL design was in some ways easier than TTL. If you terminated every line, you get controlled impedances with controlled edges. This was the design philosophy for the Dorado. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Feb 20 14:03:39 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:03:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220220200339.5522618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I've made what I think is a significant discovery about the -11/34: > 1B _is_ necessary, but can be provided anywhere on the bus; most > UNIBUS/QBUS CPU [pullups] have it built in I was wrong. Neither the KD11-E nor the KD11-EA has built-in termination and pull-ups (those are both done with one set of components). I haven't yet checked, but it may be the only PDP-11 CPU of which that is true Without _something_ doing the latter of the above, the UNIBUS won't function at all. (The UNIBUS signal lines mostly operate as negative-logic wired-OR; the pull-ups float it high for '0', and any board pulls it low to send a '1'. No pull-ups, then..) This is almost certainly the reason that the manual calls for the use of either an M9301 ROM or M9312 ROM (which include bus termination) at the start of their UNIBUS, in slot 3 or 4 of the CPU's backplane. (The M7859 of the KY11-LB doesn't have pull-ups either; so in a system with a set of KD11-E/EA cards, and a KY11-B, and nothing else, the KY11-B won't be able to examine UNIBUS locations - even though in a system with _just_ a KY11-B, and one of M9301/M9302/M9312, and NO KD11-E/EA, the KY11-B _can_ do UNIBUS operations.) A system with just an M9302, and no M9301/M9312, will _probably_ work, even though the UNIBUS is only terminated at one end (see my previous post, about QBUS termination on one end only); the M9302 will provide the pull-ups needed for the UNIBUS to function (above). I have also made a number of interesting discoveries about the SACK turnaround; I'll put them in a reply to Fritz's message. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 20 14:31:02 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 12:31:02 -0800 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76009a92-1444-27cb-aa30-4596afc3ca20@sydex.com> On 2/20/22 10:10, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > I heard Butler Lampson once exclaim that ECL design was in some ways easier > than TTL. If you terminated every line, you get controlled impedances with > controlled edges. This was the design philosophy for the Dorado. Indeed--ECL WW prototype boards usually had a 3rd row for SIP termination resistors alongside the DIP sockets. One nice thing about ECL is that there are many fewer problems with power rail spikes. On the other hand, the constant power consumption needs beefier power supplies. I recall that Honeywell redid one of their mainframe designs in ECL, with somewhat disappointing performance results. I don't recall the details offhand. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Feb 20 15:20:40 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:20:40 -0500 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <76009a92-1444-27cb-aa30-4596afc3ca20@sydex.com> References: <76009a92-1444-27cb-aa30-4596afc3ca20@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/20/22 15:31, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 2/20/22 10:10, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >> I heard Butler Lampson once exclaim that ECL design was in some ways easier >> than TTL. If you terminated every line, you get controlled impedances with >> controlled edges. This was the design philosophy for the Dorado. > > Indeed--ECL WW prototype boards usually had a 3rd row for SIP > termination resistors alongside the DIP sockets. One nice thing about > ECL is that there are many fewer problems with power rail spikes. On > the other hand, the constant power consumption needs beefier power supplies. > > I recall that Honeywell redid one of their mainframe designs in ECL, > with somewhat disappointing performance results. I don't recall the > details offhand. It's long enough ago that my mind is fuzzy, but I think Primes were ECL. bill From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 15:51:03 2022 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:51:03 -0800 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/20/2022 2:33 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a video or printed procedure they can send me or point me > somewhere that could help? Are we talking about the 10 inch fan at the top of the rack? I had to replace one of those recently, but it wasn't very difficult. Vince From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Feb 20 15:52:03 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:52:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220220215203.6750C18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Neither the KD11-E nor the KD11-EA has built-in termination and pull-ups > ... I haven't yet checked, but it may be the only PDP-11 CPU of which > that is true Also the KD11-D of the -11/04. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Feb 20 18:34:08 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:34:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets Message-ID: <20220221003408.D3D5A18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Vincent Slyngstad > I had to replace one of those recently Where did you source the replacement? I need a few. Thanks! Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Feb 20 18:42:54 2022 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:42:54 -0600 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: <76009a92-1444-27cb-aa30-4596afc3ca20@sydex.com> References: <76009a92-1444-27cb-aa30-4596afc3ca20@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7ee6e00b-fd30-1603-f99f-1ea20e6c74fd@pico-systems.com> On 2/20/22 14:31, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 2/20/22 10:10, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >> I heard Butler Lampson once exclaim that ECL design was in some ways easier >> than TTL. If you terminated every line, you get controlled impedances with >> controlled edges. This was the design philosophy for the Dorado. Yes, quite true.? Really short lines could be left unterminated, but you still needed a pull-down resistor. > Indeed--ECL WW prototype boards usually had a 3rd row for SIP > termination resistors alongside the DIP sockets. One nice thing about > ECL is that there are many fewer problems with power rail spikes. On > the other hand, the constant power consumption needs beefier power supplies. > > I recall that Honeywell redid one of their mainframe designs in ECL, > with somewhat disappointing performance results. I don't recall the > details offhand. > Yup, I was trying to speed up a baud rate divider that was already using AS or FAST 4-bit counters.? I worked out how much faster I could do it with ECL, and the result was not worth it. But, back in the days when TTL was king, before LS, AS and FAST, ECL had a REAL advantage. Jon From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 19:12:17 2022 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:12:17 -0800 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets In-Reply-To: <20220221003408.D3D5A18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220221003408.D3D5A18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <37988111-a50e-5ea0-55af-c59ac05bf661@gmail.com> On 2/20/2022 4:34 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Vincent Slyngstad > > > I had to replace one of those recently > > Where did you source the replacement? I need a few. > Thanks! I may be wrong, but from what I could tell these are bog standard 10 inch blowers of a sort used in all kinds of equipment. They can be had new from Mouser, etc. for $75-ish. (I used an OA254AP-11-1TB, as indicated below, but I suspect the 10 inch diameter and 500-600 CFM are all that's important. Maybe the noise rating, if you're fussy.) What I did was to order one of these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/313353225252 and kept the original mounting bolts, grill, etc. I did fabricate a new zip-cord over to the AC connector thingy, soldered on the fan end (like the original) with the crimp-on circular ends to go under the screws in the terminal strip. That eBay order did take a while to ship, but it when it arrived it went in right where the old one was and blows like the old one, but is nice and quiet. If it had been important to me to keep the original branding, etc., I'm sure new bearings could have been fitted instead. There is no branding consistency amongst my racks, though, and the old brands and models are all discontinued in favor of newer and higher efficiency, so I didn't feel that extra effort was necessary. Oh, and I think you need the -22- instead of the -11- if your power is closer to 220V than 110V. Vince From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Feb 20 19:39:48 2022 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (Don R) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:39:48 -0800 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets In-Reply-To: <37988111-a50e-5ea0-55af-c59ac05bf661@gmail.com> References: <37988111-a50e-5ea0-55af-c59ac05bf661@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might also consider All Electronics: https://www.allelectronics.com/index.php?page=seek&id%5Bm%5D=pattern&id%5Bq%5D=Fan Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On Feb 20, 2022, at 5:12 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 2/20/2022 4:34 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Vincent Slyngstad >> > I had to replace one of those recently >> Where did you source the replacement? I need a few. >> Thanks! > > I may be wrong, but from what I could tell these are bog standard 10 inch blowers of a sort used in all kinds of equipment. They can be had new from Mouser, etc. for $75-ish. (I used an OA254AP-11-1TB, as indicated below, but I suspect the 10 inch diameter and 500-600 CFM are all that's important. Maybe the noise rating, if you're fussy.) > > What I did was to order one of these: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/313353225252 > and kept the original mounting bolts, grill, etc. I did fabricate a new zip-cord over to the AC connector thingy, soldered on the fan end (like the original) with the crimp-on circular ends to go under the screws in the terminal strip. > > That eBay order did take a while to ship, but it when it arrived it went in right where the old one was and blows like the old one, but is nice and quiet. > > If it had been important to me to keep the original branding, etc., I'm sure new bearings could have been fitted instead. There is no branding consistency amongst my racks, though, and the old brands and models are all discontinued in favor of newer and higher efficiency, so I didn't feel that extra effort was necessary. > > Oh, and I think you need the -22- instead of the -11- if your power is closer to 220V than 110V. > > Vince > From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 19:45:51 2022 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:45:51 -0800 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets In-Reply-To: References: <37988111-a50e-5ea0-55af-c59ac05bf661@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/20/2022 5:39 PM, Don R wrote: > You might also consider All Electronics: > > https://www.allelectronics.com/index.php?page=seek&id%5Bm%5D=pattern&id%5Bq%5D=Fan > Maybe I missed them, but I didn't see anything big enough there -- I see 120mm, but no 254mm (10 inch). Vince From useddec at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 22:11:11 2022 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:11:11 -0600 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sorry, I meant info on rebuilding, bearing replacement and sources for bearings. That's what I get for sleep typing at 4:30. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 4:33 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > Does anyone have a video or printed procedure they can send me or point me > somewhere that could help? > > Thanks, Paul > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 22:11:11 2022 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:11:11 -0600 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sorry, I meant info on rebuilding, bearing replacement and sources for bearings. That's what I get for sleep typing at 4:30. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 4:33 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > Does anyone have a video or printed procedure they can send me or point me > somewhere that could help? > > Thanks, Paul > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 23:01:55 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:01:55 +0800 Subject: rotron caravel fan used in DEC and other cabinets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Paul, At first I have replaced the bearings in the original two 10" fans in the top of my LAB-8/e rack hoping to reduce the noise substantially. The new bearings did not noticeably improve the noise levels. After a few days of suffering through the noise I decided to replace them with modern and quieter versions which move the same volume of air. As I am in Australia I changed from the original 115V fans to 240V fans which meant I no longer had to use the large 240V to 115V step-down transformer in the back of the H960 rack. Regards Tom On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 12:11 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm sorry, I meant info on rebuilding, bearing replacement and sources for > bearings. > > That's what I get for sleep typing at 4:30. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 4:33 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > > > Does anyone have a video or printed procedure they can send me or point > me > > somewhere that could help? > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Feb 21 00:27:34 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:27:34 -0800 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection Message-ID: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> Hi folks, I?ve begun some work on a VT52, and need to get the power supply board out onto my bench for some work. For those who have been in here before: is there a way to detach the HV anode lead at the board side (does the white ?cap? come off the lead connector?) Or is the only option to unclip at the CRT itself? They don?t make it easy to get to the anode cap in this terminal ? one has to pull the whole tube, with the power supply board in tow. After doing this for an inspection, I find the anode cap looking little brittle and covered with some red, oily ?goop?? I?d rather just leave that alone and detach from the board side if it works that way? cheers, ?FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Feb 21 00:36:18 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:36:18 -0800 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection In-Reply-To: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> References: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> > On Feb 20, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > I?ve begun some work on a VT52 ... is there a way to detach the HV anode lead at the board side (does the white ?cap? come off the lead connector?) Well, just answered my own question ? went back and tried to be a little more assertive, and yes, the white cap is in fact just a pressure fit on the black anode connector at the board. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Feb 21 01:42:59 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:42:59 -0800 Subject: More VT52 HV Message-ID: <540CF514-B8D1-4BD0-821B-0315C8084179@fritzm.org> So, having pulled the CRT now , I was surprised to see that the ground braids seem to be held against the aquadag by only the pressure from a couple foam blocks! In my unit these aged foams are deformed and brittle. This would seem a good thing to add to the check list for looking at these? I wonder if this explains why many of these I encountered back in the day in university terminal rooms and such were suffering from HV ?snaps?? I had always assumed it was just dust / grime / spilled cokes? :-) Also, after a closer look, I?m surmising the red goo around the anode cap to be dielectric grease put there on purpose, and not degradation of the cap itself. ?FritzM. From abs at absd.org Mon Feb 21 03:39:48 2022 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 09:39:48 +0000 Subject: VAX9000 unearthed In-Reply-To: References: <76009a92-1444-27cb-aa30-4596afc3ca20@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 21:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/20/22 15:31, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/20/22 10:10, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > >> I heard Butler Lampson once exclaim that ECL design was in some ways easier > >> than TTL. If you terminated every line, you get controlled impedances with > >> controlled edges. This was the design philosophy for the Dorado. > > > > Indeed--ECL WW prototype boards usually had a 3rd row for SIP > > termination resistors alongside the DIP sockets. One nice thing about > > ECL is that there are many fewer problems with power rail spikes. On > > the other hand, the constant power consumption needs beefier power supplies. > > > > I recall that Honeywell redid one of their mainframe designs in ECL, > > with somewhat disappointing performance results. I don't recall the > > details offhand. > > It's long enough ago that my mind is fuzzy, but I think Primes were > ECL. > Gould made a set of realtime and (via a board swap) unix systems - we had a few PowerNode 6040s and one 9080 at university. One of the 6040's was mostly consumed by providing NFS to the other machines. I remember at the time being impressed that the ffs had on disk padding for 64 bit timestamps. When the university stopped using them the CS department just left their 6040 running unmonitored over the summer, and came in to find the aircon had partially flooded the room then failed, and the machine was happily still running in a shallow pool of slightly steamy water (it was, shall we say, not in a purpose built room) I also heard a possibly apocryphal story that the royal navy was tendering for an onboard computer for a sub: various suppliers found that their sample machines kept crashing, and the gould was the only one able to run reliably - turned out the installation location was quite close to "power generation equipment" and had been selected as the ambient temperature was too high to put anything else there David From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Feb 21 09:19:10 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:19:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220221151910.6EFE918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> The -11/34 (not the /34A) has something unusual for grant timeouts, >> but I forget the details. I'll look it up. And here it is... > From: Fritz Mueller > I think you are thinking of the M9302, Noel: a far-side terminator card > with integrated SACK turnaround? No; the M8264 Sack Timeout module. What's an M8264, you say? Well, there's next to nothing in print about them, but I think I've managed to assemble enough distant clues to work out their story. Start with EK-11034-OP-PRE2 (I have a hard-copy of it); it gives a clue as to how it all started. In 3.10.2, "End-of-Bus Terminator", it says: "As a result of this [SACK turnaround] circuitry [on the M9302], the SACK timeout feature found on other processors is not required" So if i) a device requests a grant, and then drops the request at _just_ the right time (so a grant gets sent out when there's no device waiting to grab it), and ii) there's a break in that grant line (maybe a missing grant continuity card) before it gets to the M9302, which can turn it around as a SACK , then ... the KD11-E CPU will hang! The M8264 was apparently the first attempt to deal with this. Like I said, there's next to nothing in print about them. EK-11034-UG-001, in Section 1.2, "System Description", does list "M8264 SACK Timeout module (11/34 only)" in the list of components - but says nothing else _at all_ about it! There is one page of circuit diagram of it, in: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/MP00082_1134_Vol2_Sep76.pdf on pg. 149. The rest of the prints for it (e.g. the PCB layout) aren't there, but I happen to have one - it's a quad board with only a few components on it. Looking at the circuit diagram, it's mostly just a 9602 retriggerable, resettable one shot. (There's also a synchronous 4-bit up/down counter, but that's just there to count events, and display the count in some LEDs - probably just to make sure it isn't happening too often.) Since I'm not a real hardware type, I'm not absolutely certain just from looking at the circuit diagram exactly what it does, or how, but EK-KD1EA-MM-001 Section 4.7.2.4, "No-SACK Timeout Circuitry", shows a very similar circuit, and says it "asserts BUS SACK ... [if the device] does not assert SACK within 22 usec after a grant line has been enabled." Presumably the M8264 does the same thing. Interestingly, that circuit appears in the KD11-EA prints on pg. K2-10; the KD11-E prints have a blank space on that page where this circuit is in the KD11-EA prints. Since the M9302 appears in EK-11034-OP-PRE2, with SACK turnaround, I deduce that the M8264 was produced _after_ that came out, and post-dates the M9302, to fix the potential CPU hang issue I described - and was later dropped when the -11/34 switched to the KD11-EA, with that circuit built in. I'll do a page on the CHWiki about the M8264, and include an image of one. I figure I might use my M8264 on my -11/04, which also doesn't have SACK timeout (on the BG lines, for sure; it looks like it might have it on the NPG line). The M8264 doesn't tie into the CPU, it just looks at UNIBUS lines, so it can be plugged into any UNIBUS machine (near the start of the bus, since the grant lines it monitors are wired sequentially). Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Feb 21 12:29:05 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:29:05 -0800 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <20220221151910.6EFE918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220221151910.6EFE918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <535CF2A6-10FC-4B64-848F-7B9862D9C17B@fritzm.org> >> From: Fritz Mueller >> I think you are thinking of the M9302, Noel: a far-side terminator card >> with integrated SACK turnaround? > On Feb 21, 2022, at 7:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > No; the M8264 Sack Timeout module. What's an M8264, you say? ... Ah, quite interesting, didn?t know about that one! The KD11-E is pretty bare boned... Parity handling was also a quad ?add on?. > So if i) a device requests a grant, and then drops the request at _just_ the > right time (so a grant gets sent out when there's no device waiting to grab > it), and ii) there's a break in that grant line (maybe a missing grant > continuity card) before it gets to the M9302, which can turn it around as a > SACK , then ... the KD11-E CPU will hang! One small elaboration here: grants on the UNIBUS, unlike everything else, are active high. So I believe a broken grant chain with an M9302 in place on the far side results in the grant being pulled up at the M9302, and then continuous assertion of SACK, hanging the processor straight out the gate. Also, in taking a look this morning at the M9302 schematic around page 70 in the commonly available 11/34 engineering drawings set (rev B, Sep 76), there appears to be a mistake! The output of the SACK turnaround circuit is annotated here BUS SACK H, but I?m almost certain this should be BUS SACK L? May be worth a look for other versions of the M9302 drawings to verify this. cheers, ?FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Feb 21 12:46:11 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:46:11 -0800 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <535CF2A6-10FC-4B64-848F-7B9862D9C17B@fritzm.org> References: <20220221151910.6EFE918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <535CF2A6-10FC-4B64-848F-7B9862D9C17B@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Feb 21, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Also, in taking a look this morning at the M9302 schematic around page 70 in the commonly available 11/34 engineering drawings set (rev B, Sep 76), there appears to be a mistake! The output of the SACK turnaround circuit is annotated here BUS SACK H, but I?m almost certain this should be BUS SACK L? May be worth a look for other versions of the M9302 drawings to verify this. And indeed -- the rev D, Jul 77 M9302 drawing has this annotation corrected to BUS SACK L. From fedorkow at mit.edu Mon Feb 21 15:26:26 2022 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 16:26:26 -0500 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch Message-ID: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of the cctalk digests] Greetings CC-Talk, ? I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind project.? The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use actual paper tape. ? A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder.? We don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly reliable. ?? If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know?? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay. ? Thanks! /guy fedorkow From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Feb 21 15:33:48 2022 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:33:48 -0600 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> Message-ID: <24e455b2-63bc-09a0-784d-f22e0d60b116@12bitsbest.com> If you can find on a Teletype ASR33 is the perfect example of a reader/punch and a hard copy terminal all at the same time. If you find 2, please let me know :) On 2/21/2022 3:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: > [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of > the cctalk digests] > > Greetings CC-Talk, > ? I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce > students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's > 1950's Whirlwind project.? The activity would have more of a hands-on > feel if we could use actual paper tape. > ? A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder.? We > don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just > something fairly reliable. > ?? If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let > me know?? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been > cited as possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like > a good match on ebay. > > ? Thanks! > /guy fedorkow From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Feb 21 16:11:20 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 17:11:20 -0500 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> Message-ID: <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> > On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: > > [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of the cctalk digests] > > Greetings CC-Talk, > I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use actual paper tape. > A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly reliable. > If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay. > > Thanks! > /guy fedorkow Do you mean a punch as a computer peripheral, or a keyboard operated tape punch? For the former, the ones you mentioned are obvious choices; BRPE is another. Also the DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC01 or some such number). For keyboard operated, there's Teletype, Flexowriter, Creed, Siemens, depending on where you're located. ASR33 is a common 8-bit punching terminal. Older models that use 5-level tape ("Baudot") may also be around, and those could certainly serve for 1950s era machines that may well have actually used those. I don't know what Whirlwind used, but I know some other 1950s machines that used 5 bit tape for their I/O. Electrologica X1 is an example. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Feb 21 18:32:39 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 00:32:39 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 Message-ID: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Hi ? I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. ? It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Diag sees drive as RA82. It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. So how do I install an operating system? Suggestions please. Thanks Rod From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 21 18:33:44 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 17:33:44 -0700 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2022-02-21 3:11 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: >> >> [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of the cctalk digests] >> >> Greetings CC-Talk, >> I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use actual paper tape. >> A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly reliable. >> If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay. >> >> Thanks! >> /guy fedorkow > > Do you mean a punch as a computer peripheral, or a keyboard operated tape punch? For the former, the ones you mentioned are obvious choices; BRPE is another. Also the DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC01 or some such number). > > For keyboard operated, there's Teletype, Flexowriter, Creed, Siemens, depending on where you're located. ASR33 is a common 8-bit punching terminal. Older models that use 5-level tape ("Baudot") may also be around, and those could certainly serve for 1950s era machines that may well have actually used those. I don't know what Whirlwind used, but I know some other 1950s machines that used 5 bit tape for their I/O. Electrologica X1 is an example. > > paul > This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high tech. Ben. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 18:44:25 2022 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:44:25 -0500 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: If anybody actually wants to build one I have the important part, motor driven with solenoid operated cam driven punches; would only need a suitable interface and maybe a cabinet. Don't know if it would be worth while with today's shipping costs though, unless you're local in the Toronto area. m On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 7:33 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-02-21 3:11 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of > the cctalk digests] > >> > >> Greetings CC-Talk, > >> I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce > students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's > Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we > could use actual paper tape. > >> A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We > don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just > something fairly reliable. > >> If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let > me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as > possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match > on ebay. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> /guy fedorkow > > > > Do you mean a punch as a computer peripheral, or a keyboard operated > tape punch? For the former, the ones you mentioned are obvious choices; > BRPE is another. Also the DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC01 or some such > number). > > > > For keyboard operated, there's Teletype, Flexowriter, Creed, Siemens, > depending on where you're located. ASR33 is a common 8-bit punching > terminal. Older models that use 5-level tape ("Baudot") may also be > around, and those could certainly serve for 1950s era machines that may > well have actually used those. I don't know what Whirlwind used, but I > know some other 1950s machines that used 5 bit tape for their I/O. > Electrologica X1 is an example. > > > > paul > > > > This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I > would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock > is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his > computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high > tech. > Ben. > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Feb 21 18:52:12 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:52:12 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <835468E0-4634-4938-A431-2796C1F3CC13@comcast.net> > On Feb 21, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > Hi > > I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. > > It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. > > Diag sees drive as RA82. > > It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. > > I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. > > Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. > > So how do I install an operating system? > > Suggestions please. So all you have is a BIG disk and a floppy drive? You're in a world of hurt. The straightforward answer is to get an OS kit on floppies, and run the installation procedure. The problem is that a lot of the more obvious choices for OS (given that you have a 22 bit machine with bit memory and disk) don't have floppy kits. For example, RSTS has a trimmed down kit called "micro-RSTS" back in the V9 era; I don't know that a V10 version of that was ever done. And even the severe trim job still took 10 floppies. Do you have a PC that can do I/O to that SCSI drive? If so, the best answer may be to run SIMH on that PC, with the SCSI disk as its disk drive. Then feed an install kit to an emulated SIMH tape drive or whatever you need for the kit media. Or you could do an image copy of someone else's system, provided it sits on a disk that's close enough in size to what you have. "Close enough" depends on the OS. For example, with RSTS it would work so long as the two devices have the same "device cluster size", i.e., their sizes rounded up to the next power of two are the same. An obvious question is what sort of system you're looking for. RT, RSX-11/M+, RSTS, Ultrix, BSD 2.11 are all possibilities. Exotic choices like IAS or DSM may not like the CPU and/or the controller. But RT and Ultrix are, to put it mildly, rather different systems. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 18:55:27 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 16:55:27 -0800 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi > > I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. > > It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive > attached. > > Diag sees drive as RA82. > > It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. > > I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. > > Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. > > So how do I install an operating system? > > Suggestions please. > > Thanks > > Rod > Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option would be to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can use to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard drive. Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a SCSI disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD card. Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version you could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard drive. I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you can do either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time. For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images. > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Feb 21 18:56:07 2022 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:56:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Greetings CC-Talk, > I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce > students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's > Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we > could use actual paper tape. > A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We > don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just > something fairly reliable. > If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let > me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as > possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match > on ebay. > > Thanks! > /guy fedorkow I'll second the GNT 4601. I use it for punching tapes for my HP system, and reading old tapes. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Feb 21 19:02:20 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:02:20 -0500 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <6d80004d-3c22-4dee-07b4-7c9bae4ab9b5@mit.edu> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> <6d80004d-3c22-4dee-07b4-7c9bae4ab9b5@mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:07 PM, Guy Fedorkow wrote: > > hi Paul, > Yes, I should have said -- I'm looking for a machine that can punch under control of a computer. > Whirlwind actually used seven-bit Flexowriters for reading and punching (along with a high-speed reader later on), but I think it would be even harder to find fresh seven-level tape even if a seven bit machine turned up. > I actually have been using a BRPE on loan from another contributor to this list, but it's time to return the unit, so I've started to look for alternatives. > I assume something like an ASR-33 would do the trick, although a machine without keyboard and printer might have fewer moving parts to go wrong. But I don't see many plausible choices on ebay. > If anyone can suggest other sources, I'll poke around The nice thing about an ASR33 (or other hardcopy terminal with reader/punch like a TT model 15) is that you can interface them to a computer rather easily, just hook up a UART with appropriate driver/receiver circuitry. RS232 to 20 mA (or 60mA for a Model 15) isn't totally trivial but it certainly is no big deal. And those slow machines actually have the nice benefit that it's easy for people to see the action, and to get some understanding at a gut level of how slow computers were in those days. I understand there is a group called "Green keys" -- ham radio operators who use old "teletype" machines -- which in that community means wny sort of keyboard telex-type machine, not necessarily made by Teletype Co. though US ones often are. 5 bit machines are common in that crowd, some 8 bit machines also appear. I haven't participated, but I would think that you might find pointers to options there. As for 7 bit tape media: I found out in the past year or so that there actually was such a thing as paper tape of width designed for 7 tracks, but a lot of "7 bit" paper tape work actually used 1 inch wide tape, i.e., what is normally considered 8 bit tape. For example, the Flexowriters on which I did my first programming at TU Eindhoven used a 7-bit code but on 8 bit tape. paul From cube1 at charter.net Mon Feb 21 20:14:58 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:14:58 -0600 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <9a103083-62d8-727e-b843-8b1deabfefa3@charter.net> On 2/21/2022 6:55 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. >> >> It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, >> >> Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive >> attached. >> >> Diag sees drive as RA82. >> >> It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. >> >> I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. >> >> Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. >> >> So how do I install an operating system? >> >> Suggestions please. >> >> Thanks >> >> Rod >> > > Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option would be > to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can use > to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk > images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard drive. > Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a SCSI > disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD > card. > > Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version you > could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes > for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard drive. > I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If > you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you > can do either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time. > > For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from > RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images. > >> Another alternative would be, after installing an OS under SimH using another program as was suggested here, to transfer the disk image (e.g. vtserver https://github.com/chapmajs/vtserver ). JRJ From steven at malikoff.com Mon Feb 21 20:24:18 2022 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:24:18 +1000 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <78ae9afacbca8b3ca7e7a41c677659d0.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Ben said > This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I > would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock > is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his > computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high > tech. Consumer-grade CNC stencil cutters are fine at cutting plastic sheet and should be ok with film stock. My ptap2dxf (latest version 1.3) will produce output to cut tapes for 8-level ASCII, 5-level Baudot, 2-level Morse (Wheatstone and Cable Code), 7-level Whirlwind, Teletype Chadless and some customising options too. Still some other formats to do such as Colossus etc. Thanks for the notion of making Zuse tape, will look into it. Steve. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Feb 21 20:35:25 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > ? It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive > attached. Hm, that's an interesting setup. If it has two MCSP controllers then one of them is at an alternate address. I never really worked out how to run a system with an RQDX3+Second controller to get the floppies working and the hard disk working so hm. That said, one option is to find a friendly person, send them an RD54 and have them copy a sysgen onto it. Another option is to get one of Dave G's MFM emulators, download an RD54 image of the OS in question, transfer it to the real disk then go. Or just plug Dave's emulator into the 11/83 and run with it. Yeah, that's a simple option. For myself I run a 600mb ESDI drive on an MTI controller that I built off an RL02 image which I uploaded via serial link to a real RL02. To keep me from doing this again I backed up my system to a TK70, and have the BRU boot floppy set up on an RX01. Simple restores are nice. C From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 20:52:45 2022 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 21:52:45 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <44B3C20D-CF44-4F76-84C7-FB6276BD674C@gmail.com> On Feb 21, 2022, at 19:32, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > So how do I install an operating system? You can install 2.11BSD rather normally using VTserver. It makes your modern computer into a pseudo tape protocol via your serial port to the pdp console. It was written for this purpose and I?ve successfully installed bsd this way without having to contrive install images using simulators (which for me takes the fun out of owning real iron).. You could also raw-write a bootable rt-11 image onto a floppy using vtserver, boot it and from there install rt to big disk. Also, someone posted v7m floppy images on here last year. You could get RT-11 + Kermit up , then transfer and write v7m floppies from there. Beware of the problem of formatting RX-50 floppies if you decide to try this. I really hope Someone finds a newer ultrix floppy distro soon! These options stick a bit closer to the real pdp experience if you?re into that. Good luck Jake From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Feb 21 20:55:08 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 02:55:08 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0b089637-7335-fefd-d2e1-4b175cb5de19@btinternet.com> On 22/02/2022 02:35, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> ?? It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, >> >> Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI >> drive attached. > > Hm, that's an interesting setup. If it has two MCSP controllers then > one of them is at an alternate address. I never really worked out how > to run a system with an RQDX3+Second controller to get the floppies > working and the hard disk working so hm. > > That said, one option is to find a friendly person, send them an RD54 > and have them copy a sysgen onto it. Another option is to get one of > Dave G's MFM emulators, download an RD54 image of the OS in question, > transfer it to the real disk then go. Or just plug Dave's emulator > into the 11/83 and run with it. > > Yeah, that's a simple option. > > For myself I run a 600mb ESDI drive on an MTI controller that I built > off an RL02 image which I uploaded via serial link to a real RL02. To > keep me from doing this again I backed up my system to a TK70, and > have the BRU boot floppy set up on an RX01. Simple restores are nice. > > C Yes that's right they are at different addresses as per the manual Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Feb 21 21:04:47 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:04:47 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <152f036e-28d3-513b-5a14-898e0f8af606@btinternet.com> On 22/02/2022 00:55, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. >> >> It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, >> >> Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive >> attached. >> >> Diag sees drive as RA82. >> >> It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. >> >> I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. >> >> Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. >> >> So how do I install an operating system? >> >> Suggestions please. >> >> Thanks >> >> Rod >> > Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option would be > to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can use > to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk > images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard drive. > Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a SCSI > disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD > card. > > Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version you > could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes > for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard drive. > I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If > you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you > can do either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time. > > For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from > RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images. > Exactly, the best solution is an RX50 distribution. I have never seen one or a way of making one. If you have a PDP-11 with an RX50 then you would need one. Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Feb 21 21:10:08 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:10:08 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> On 22/02/2022 00:32, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > ? I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. > > ? It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI > drive attached. > > Diag sees drive as RA82. > > It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. > > I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating > systems. > > Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. > > So how do I install an operating system? > > Suggestions please. > > Thanks > > Rod > > I have been doing a lot of digging. Its possible there was a MicroRSX on RX50 I'm looking for images. Rod From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Feb 21 21:11:28 2022 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:11:28 -0800 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <08C63826-02BD-4FAB-A14A-B385E98834AF@avanthar.com> On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hi > > I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. > > It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. > > Diag sees drive as RA82. > > It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. > > I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. > > Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. > > So how do I install an operating system? > > Suggestions please. You can install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R, I couldn?t figure out how to install RSTS/E from CD-R. Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Feb 21 21:20:20 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 22:20:20 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> There is. What's in my floppy pile here: Micro RSX11 4.0 9 floppies base Micro RSTS 2.1 20 floppy disks Ultrix 11 2.0 30 floppy disks I think installing 30 floppy disks would be an exercise in insanity: That would probably wear down an RX50 drive to the nubbins. I also seem to have PRO/RDT, Pro/Fortran, Pro/Cobol, Venix 1.0, P/OS 1.7 and P/OS 2.0/Synergy. Man I have a lot of stuff here. C On 2/21/2022 10:10 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > On 22/02/2022 00:32, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >> Hi >> >> ? I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. >> >> ? It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, >> >> Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI >> drive attached. >> >> Diag sees drive as RA82. >> >> It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. >> >> I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating >> systems. >> >> Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. >> >> So how do I install an operating system? >> >> Suggestions please. >> >> Thanks >> >> Rod >> >> > I have been doing a lot of digging. > > Its possible there was a MicroRSX on RX50 > > I'm looking for images. > > Rod > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 21 21:27:54 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:27:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I think installing 30 floppy disks would be an exercise in insanity: No arguments there. > That > would probably wear down an RX50 drive to the nubbins. Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Feb 21 21:34:07 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 22:34:07 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? Well, they're 10 years older than your Windows 95 floppy so sort of. I still have some working RX50's here but they are a bit fickle. That's a big reason why I went to TK70's, more reliable. Are any of my distro kits not online? I can probably read them with a Deskpro XE/4100 with a 1.2mb floppy drive if they need to be scanned. C From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Feb 21 21:49:18 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:49:18 -0700 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 8:34 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? > > Well, they're 10 years older than your Windows 95 floppy so sort of. I > still have some working RX50's here but they are a bit fickle. That's a > big reason why I went to TK70's, more reliable. > I notice you didn't say TK50 here :) I recently read 400 odd RX50s from my old DEC Rainbow collection recently. All but 3 read perfectly. Are any of my distro kits not online? I can probably read them with a > Deskpro XE/4100 with a 1.2mb floppy drive if they need to be scanned. > I have a kyroflux I used to image a bunch of Rainbow Venix disks... love it, but I've had it a long time... Warner > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Feb 21 22:27:57 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 23:27:57 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <2292cf7b-3c4b-c79e-b30f-cdf6e1f5b28c@alembic.crystel.com> > I notice you didn't say TK50 here :) I have some TK50's as well. They really are not that bad, the key problem with them is the bearings in the two capstans: They're old, oil has dried out, and as a result they drag on the tapes. Plus one of them has a tachometer wheel under it, and if it doesn't report speed properly things go bad. The solution is to remove the capstans and either re-oil both the top and bottom bearings with watch oil, or replace the bearings with new ones. I oil them, the modern mobieus watch oils are synthetic and last a long time. As long as there is no drag you should be good. One big problem would be aligning them as the height of the capstans is pretty critical. You can fix this by simply marking the bolts then counting the exact number of turns it takes to take each one off. Write it down, and when putting things together put them on the exact same number of turns. Presto, capstans aligned, drive works for another 15 years or so. > I have a kyroflux I used to image a bunch of Rainbow Venix disks... love > it, but I've had it a long time... If there's interest I can image them. If they're already out there then I just keep em for spares. C From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 07:47:33 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 08:47:33 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <9a103083-62d8-727e-b843-8b1deabfefa3@charter.net> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <9a103083-62d8-727e-b843-8b1deabfefa3@charter.net> Message-ID: On 2/21/22 21:14, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 2/21/2022 6:55 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> ??? I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. >>> >>> ??? It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, >>> >>> Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive >>> attached. >>> >>> Diag sees drive as RA82. >>> >>> It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. >>> >>> I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating >>> systems. >>> >>> Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. >>> >>> So how do I install an operating system? >>> >>> Suggestions please. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Rod >>> >> >> Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option >> would be >> to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can >> use >> to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk >> images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard >> drive. >> Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a >> SCSI >> disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD >> card. >> >> Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version >> you >> could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes >> for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard >> drive. >> I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If >> you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you >> can do either MSCP or TMSCP,? but not both at the same time. >> >> For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from >> RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images. >> >>> > > Another alternative would be, after installing an OS under SimH using > another program as was suggested here, to transfer the disk image (e.g. > vtserver? https://github.com/chapmajs/vtserver ). > It would be slow (but no slower than the above suggestion. :-). I am pretty sure there was a tape image available for installing 2.11 using VTServer. I even think I did it once or twice. Haven't had a real PDP-11 up for a while but I used to have fully patched versions running on an 11/23, and 11/73 and an 11/93. Just wish I could get some PMI memory for that 93. bill From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 22 08:01:57 2022 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:01:57 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 22/02/2022 03:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? I never installed it this way myself, but MicroVMS on the MicroVAX II was distributed on RX50 floppies: lost of them. Of course, that was then and the floppy drives were younger and less temperamental (and perhaps the same could be said about the people feeding the drives floppies ...) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 08:19:24 2022 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:19:24 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <3E826F06-024E-4E80-A2D1-62041C913C93@gmail.com> > On 22 Feb 2022, at 14:01, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 22/02/2022 03:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? > > > I never installed it this way myself, but MicroVMS on the MicroVAX II was distributed on RX50 floppies: lost of them. > > > Of course, that was then and the floppy drives were younger and less temperamental (and perhaps the same could be said about the people feeding the drives floppies ...) > That didn't stop me being massively nervy installing a VMS v5.0 upgrade from RX50s to a customer's VAX 11/50... I think it was the first one that I'd done so no pressure. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 08:47:08 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:47:08 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 2/21/22 22:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I think installing 30 floppy disks would be an exercise in insanity: > > No arguments there. > >> That would probably wear down an RX50 drive to the nubbins. > > Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? > > Did he say it was an RX50? Or just a floppy. Others were supported like the RX33 which could read RX50 disks. TEAC FD-55-GFR work fine and can still be found in the wild. bill From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 22 08:58:14 2022 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 08:58:14 -0600 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <78ae9afacbca8b3ca7e7a41c677659d0.squirrel@webmail04.regist er.com> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> <78ae9afacbca8b3ca7e7a41c677659d0.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <20220222151403.C59874E6B1@mx2.ezwind.net> At 08:24 PM 2/21/2022, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >Consumer-grade CNC stencil cutters are fine at cutting plastic sheet and should be ok with film stock. >My ptap2dxf (latest version 1.3) will produce output to cut tapes for ... Meaning the Cricut kind of device? Clever! So it works for short sections? Has anyone ever made a Cricut style cutter that has a continuous feed of tape? Why did you pick AutoCAD DXF as compared to Adobe Illustrator? At 07:02 PM 2/21/2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >I understand there is a group called "Green keys" -- ham radio operators who use old "teletype" machines -- which in that community means wny sort of keyboard telex-type machine, not necessarily made by Teletype Co. though US ones often are. 5 bit machines are common in that crowd, some 8 bit machines also appear. I haven't participated, but I would think that you might find pointers to options there. GreenKeys mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net They can be very helpful. They tend to focus on other non-33 teletypes. The list can be a good place to find out about people selling or giving away equipment, though. The collectors of the heavy, older, machined teletypes tend to shake their heads at the high prices and popularity of the light-duty cheaper punched-metal 33s. You might find someone giving away a bulky heavy ASR 28 that handles 5-level tape... https://www.telegramcableco.com/teletype-model-28-asr.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_28 Less common to find them giving away a 33 because the computer nuts will pay $xxx to $x,xxx for them. - John From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 22 09:20:49 2022 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:20:49 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <3E826F06-024E-4E80-A2D1-62041C913C93@gmail.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> <3E826F06-024E-4E80-A2D1-62041C913C93@gmail.com> Message-ID: <103ae90b-5d8d-7fa3-1994-a5cb4c71b8b7@ntlworld.com> On 22/02/2022 14:19, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > That didn't stop me being massively nervy installing a VMS v5.0 upgrade from RX50s to a customer's VAX 11/50... I think it was the first one that I'd done so no pressure. I remember doing the V5 upgrade on a VAX-11/750 but via tape. You still needed to boot from TU58, which seemed to take roughly forever. I imagine it was possible to hook up RX50s to a VAX-11/750 but I never saw one configured that way. Why not use tape :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 09:26:14 2022 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:26:14 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <103ae90b-5d8d-7fa3-1994-a5cb4c71b8b7@ntlworld.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> <3E826F06-024E-4E80-A2D1-62041C913C93@gmail.com> <103ae90b-5d8d-7fa3-1994-a5cb4c71b8b7@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5C41ECC5-665B-4071-894D-219E2E077BED@gmail.com> > On 22 Feb 2022, at 15:20, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 22/02/2022 14:19, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> That didn't stop me being massively nervy installing a VMS v5.0 upgrade from RX50s to a customer's VAX 11/50... I think it was the first one that I'd done so no pressure. > > I remember doing the V5 upgrade on a VAX-11/750 but via tape. You still needed to boot from TU58, which seemed to take roughly forever. > > > I imagine it was possible to hook up RX50s to a VAX-11/750 but I never saw one configured that way. Why not use tape :-) > That's just what the request was. I suspect they didn't have a tape drive, the VAX was the only bit of DEC kit they had because the fixed drives were all Systems Industries. They probably did a disk backup for reasons. I know for a fact that the local failed circus engineers hated this particular site because most of the faults they went to work on were because of the SI drives which IIRC were Fuji/Eagle. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 22 10:20:37 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:20:37 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. Message-ID: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> Hi All ????? I did find some RX50 images of the MicroRSX distribution. ???? So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch floppy, a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. ?? Its accessible on my network so getting files onto it is not a problem. ??? So install putR.com , and transfer the image files. ? ? Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is write protected. Its not and the drive works normally with the disk from the MS DOS prompt. ? ?? So much for putR writes RX50's on RX33! ??? Rod From Rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 22 11:27:35 2022 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:27:35 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <518D4A5B-5F9E-47DA-B804-F43657761983@btinternet.com> I have a generic 5.25? (not sure of brand) in my dell GX1 but it writes plain SSDD floppies in RX50 format no problem. The RX33 was a pretty standard PC floppy drive AFAIK, just configured (with jumpers) to work as an RX33. You may find better milage configuring it as a PC floppy drive, as PUTR expects to work on PC drives at the device level. Having a real RX33 might be throwing it off. Don?t take it as gospel, since i?ve not got an RX33 to test it with. Not sure if PUTR can copy images to a floppy, as i?ve only used it to build a bootable RT11 disk, and make a few RT11 disks out of the contents of images mounted by PUTR. You might find it better to work on a blank formatted floppy and build up from there. > On Feb 22, 2022, at 4:20 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > Hi All > > I did find some RX50 images of the MicroRSX distribution. > > So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch floppy, a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > > Its accessible on my network so getting files onto it is not a problem. > > So install putR.com , and transfer the image files. > > Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is write protected. Its not and the drive works normally with the disk from the MS DOS prompt. > > So much for putR writes RX50's on RX33! > > Rod > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 22 11:55:43 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:55:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) Message-ID: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > Just wish I could get some PMI memory for that 93. ?? The KDJ11-E in the -11/93 comes with a minimum of 2MB on the CPU card. That's enough for almost 16 maximum-sized processes (assuming they aren't sharing program texts - almost double that, if they are). Does one really need more than that for vintage retro use? Besides, the on-board memory operates at full speed (same as cache memory on the KDJ11-B); even if you added PMI memory, the KDJ11-E has no cache, so it would be a _lot_ slower than the on-board memory. Noel PS: Can people _please_ trim messages they are replying to, so we don't all have to scroll down past a bunch of irrelevant drek? Thank you. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 12:01:53 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:01:53 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <08C63826-02BD-4FAB-A14A-B385E98834AF@avanthar.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <08C63826-02BD-4FAB-A14A-B385E98834AF@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Feb 21, 2022, at 10:11 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?Hi >> >> I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. >> >> It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, >> >> Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. >> >> Diag sees drive as RA82. >> >> It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. >> >> I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. >> >> Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. >> >> So how do I install an operating system? >> >> Suggestions please. > > You can install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R, I couldn?t figure out how to install RSTS/E from CD-R. > > Zane How did you get a CD-R image of kits for those OS? I'm not sure if it has been done for RSTS but it should be possible. I once did some work for Fred Knight when he was looking into creating a CD image of the OS and all its layered products; the question was whether a bootable CD could be created that would nevertheless look like it had a valid ISO file system on it. The answer is yes and my RSTSFLX program (the V2 version) had a feature intended to produce such an image. But the project faded away before it completed, and I don't know that such a CD was ever produced. Still, a RSTS disk kit is a simple thing: a bootable disk with a RSTS file system on it, containing a few files needed to get the new system disk set up and all the remaining bits in the form of a collection of backup sets. Boot the distribution device, use the "dskint" and "copy" options to copy the basic files to the destination disk, boot that disk, and run the installation script. More precisely, those steps will all run automatically, triggered by the fact that the kit is a read-only file system. A RSTS floppy kit is tricky only because the basic files don't fit on one floppy, so you have to split them across several and include marker files that trigger media swaps. I've looked for the MicroRSTS kit building scripts but don't think I've seen them. Reverse engineering them is certainly possible. Not trivial; all that machinery assumes it's running on the RSTS team's main development machine, which isn't what I have. As for the question why there aren't RX50 kits for many of the choices: that's because RX50 isn't a convenient distribution device, and DEC didn't sell configs such as the one we're talking about here, at least not for RSTS systems. With RSTS, you got a choice of a handful of kit media, which typically were things you'd want anyway (like a magtape, good for backups). So you'd get a system with that kind of configuration, and everything works painlessly. BTW, Rod, do you have any kind of network interface? An Ethernet device would be ideal. With that, you could install just a core setup from floppies or other hairy procedures, then copy the remaining kits across the network and install from the local copies of the kits. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 12:07:12 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:07:12 -0500 Subject: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) In-Reply-To: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/22/22 12:55, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Bill Gunshannon > > > Just wish I could get some PMI memory for that 93. > > ?? The KDJ11-E in the -11/93 comes with a minimum of 2MB on the CPU card. > That's enough for almost 16 maximum-sized processes (assuming they aren't > sharing program texts - almost double that, if they are). Does one really > need more than that for vintage retro use? > > Besides, the on-board memory operates at full speed (same as cache memory on > the KDJ11-B); even if you added PMI memory, the KDJ11-E has no cache, so it > would be a _lot_ slower than the on-board memory. > > Noel > > PS: Can people _please_ trim messages they are replying to, so we don't all > have to scroll down past a bunch of irrelevant drek? Thank you. One can never have too much memory. Especially on these old systems that had limited memory at best. :-) bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 12:17:12 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:17:12 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <518D4A5B-5F9E-47DA-B804-F43657761983@btinternet.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <518D4A5B-5F9E-47DA-B804-F43657761983@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <7E301CB3-629A-4072-969B-15C2A32296E1@comcast.net> > On Feb 22, 2022, at 12:27 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > I have a generic 5.25? (not sure of brand) in my dell GX1 but it writes plain SSDD floppies in RX50 format no problem. > > The RX33 was a pretty standard PC floppy drive AFAIK, just configured (with jumpers) to work as an RX33. You may find better milage configuring it as a PC floppy drive, as PUTR expects to work on PC drives at the device level. Having a real RX33 might be throwing it off. Don?t take it as gospel, since i?ve not got an RX33 to test it with. > > Not sure if PUTR can copy images to a floppy, as i?ve only used it to build a bootable RT11 disk, and make a few RT11 disks out of the contents of images mounted by PUTR. You might find it better to work on a blank formatted floppy and build up from there. I have a utility to go between real floppies and images, it's included with my RSTSFLX utility. It can deal with interleaving, so (for example) you can have an image file in logical block order as they usually are, and copy that to a floppy in the correct physical order. Or you can have an image that's in physical order, as you would use for the xHomer fork of SIMH. Look for svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/flx/trunk -- the program I mentioned is rx50.py. I have no idea if this can be made to work on Windows, but it runs fine on Linux. (I did once, long ago, write code for DOS -- DJGPP -- to access the PC floppy in the right way to read/write RX50 format floppies, but while that works fine under Win95 it probably won't work under WinNT derivatives.) paul From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 12:29:23 2022 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:29:23 +0000 Subject: Greasweasel was Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <7E301CB3-629A-4072-969B-15C2A32296E1@comcast.net> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <518D4A5B-5F9E-47DA-B804-F43657761983@btinternet.com> <7E301CB3-629A-4072-969B-15C2A32296E1@comcast.net> Message-ID: I was wondering how well a Greaseweasel would write floppies for my Rainbow. Also, I saw that someone had images for Venix-86 Rainbow and I was wondering if they would be interested in sharing them. Thanks Ray Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:17:12 PM To: Joshua Rice ; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. > On Feb 22, 2022, at 12:27 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > I have a generic 5.25? (not sure of brand) in my dell GX1 but it writes plain SSDD floppies in RX50 format no problem. > > The RX33 was a pretty standard PC floppy drive AFAIK, just configured (with jumpers) to work as an RX33. You may find better milage configuring it as a PC floppy drive, as PUTR expects to work on PC drives at the device level. Having a real RX33 might be throwing it off. Don?t take it as gospel, since i?ve not got an RX33 to test it with. > > Not sure if PUTR can copy images to a floppy, as i?ve only used it to build a bootable RT11 disk, and make a few RT11 disks out of the contents of images mounted by PUTR. You might find it better to work on a blank formatted floppy and build up from there. I have a utility to go between real floppies and images, it's included with my RSTSFLX utility. It can deal with interleaving, so (for example) you can have an image file in logical block order as they usually are, and copy that to a floppy in the correct physical order. Or you can have an image that's in physical order, as you would use for the xHomer fork of SIMH. Look for svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/flx/trunk -- the program I mentioned is rx50.py. I have no idea if this can be made to work on Windows, but it runs fine on Linux. (I did once, long ago, write code for DOS -- DJGPP -- to access the PC floppy in the right way to read/write RX50 format floppies, but while that works fine under Win95 it probably won't work under WinNT derivatives.) paul From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 22 13:07:07 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:07:07 -0700 Subject: Greasweasel was Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <518D4A5B-5F9E-47DA-B804-F43657761983@btinternet.com> <7E301CB3-629A-4072-969B-15C2A32296E1@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 11:29 AM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was wondering how well a Greaseweasel would write floppies for my > Rainbow. I've not tried this with my kyroflux, so no comment. > Also, I saw that someone had images for Venix-86 Rainbow and I was > wondering if they would be interested in sharing them. > https://fosdem.org/2022/schedule/event/venix/ for my recent Venix-86 talk https://github.com/bsdimp/venix/ has all the images you'll need, but maybe not in the most useful format, but see dist/rb/README.md with details. You'll also want to install the Boston Software Works (BSW) version since it supports most hard drives and not just RD50s. Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you have any questions. I've been running it on and off for a while now and would love to see more use it. Also, you can run this with mame, though I've only done it with the Rainbow 100B, none of the other models. You'll need at least 256kB, but happiest with max (892k) settings.192k might boot, but anything smaller will not boot. Warner > Thanks > Ray > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via > cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:17:12 PM > To: Joshua Rice ; cctalk at classiccmp.org < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. > > > > > On Feb 22, 2022, at 12:27 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have a generic 5.25? (not sure of brand) in my dell GX1 but it writes > plain SSDD floppies in RX50 format no problem. > > > > The RX33 was a pretty standard PC floppy drive AFAIK, just configured > (with jumpers) to work as an RX33. You may find better milage configuring > it as a PC floppy drive, as PUTR expects to work on PC drives at the device > level. Having a real RX33 might be throwing it off. Don?t take it as > gospel, since i?ve not got an RX33 to test it with. > > > > Not sure if PUTR can copy images to a floppy, as i?ve only used it to > build a bootable RT11 disk, and make a few RT11 disks out of the contents > of images mounted by PUTR. You might find it better to work on a blank > formatted floppy and build up from there. > > I have a utility to go between real floppies and images, it's included > with my RSTSFLX utility. It can deal with interleaving, so (for example) > you can have an image file in logical block order as they usually are, and > copy that to a floppy in the correct physical order. Or you can have an > image that's in physical order, as you would use for the xHomer fork of > SIMH. > > Look for svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/flx/trunk -- the program I mentioned > is rx50.py. > > I have no idea if this can be made to work on Windows, but it runs fine on > Linux. (I did once, long ago, write code for DOS -- DJGPP -- to access the > PC floppy in the right way to read/write RX50 format floppies, but while > that works fine under Win95 it probably won't work under WinNT derivatives.) > > paul > > > From athornton at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 13:27:12 2022 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:27:12 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 11/83 question sounds like a job for SCSI2SD to me. Install a system with simh. dd the resulting disk image to your sd card. Hook the SCSI2SD up to your 11/83 and boot from the card. Copy the contents of that drive to your real SCSI drive. Done. SCSI2SD cards are not expensive and are a tremendous value for money. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Feb 22 14:05:54 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 14:05:54 -0600 Subject: Greasweasel was Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <518D4A5B-5F9E-47DA-B804-F43657761983@btinternet.com> <7E301CB3-629A-4072-969B-15C2A32296E1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8390fe60-03a3-3fd7-b9d5-ab643e247b27@charter.net> On 2/22/2022 12:29 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > I was wondering how well a Greaseweasel would write floppies for my Rainbow. Also, I saw that someone had images for Venix-86 Rainbow and I was wondering if they would be interested in sharing them. > > Thanks > Ray > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > ________________________________ I was certainly able to *read* them on my Greaseweazle, using a real RX50 drive, and compared them to images I had read earlier under MS-DOS with a driver on a 360K drive. I see no reason offhand why they could not be written with a Greaseweazle as well, unless the actual sector encoding (as opposed to sector size) is weird - and I don't recall that it is. BTW, I used a Greaseweazle to write some IBM DD floppies for someone with a System/36 (IIRC) using a DSDD drive I borrowed from my DG S/140, and they worked fine for him. JRJ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 14:06:57 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:06:57 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 9:02 AM Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I never installed it this way myself, but MicroVMS on the MicroVAX II > was distributed on RX50 floppies: lost of them. I have 2-3 install kits for MicroVMS on RX50. I'm working on imaging them. First attempts were not successful (media is fine). I will have to re-try this Spring. Each one is a large stack of floppies. Multiple savesets with up to a dozen disks in each (but mostly 1 to 4 per saveset is more common. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 14:09:04 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:09:04 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <103ae90b-5d8d-7fa3-1994-a5cb4c71b8b7@ntlworld.com> References: <220eedb3-d7ca-6691-0fa4-a03ff973104c@btinternet.com> <6d99e4c7-16f4-0996-dea8-3196f67b0372@btinternet.com> <921daa04-3d33-c151-58bc-8ce62774fb3f@alembic.crystel.com> <3E826F06-024E-4E80-A2D1-62041C913C93@gmail.com> <103ae90b-5d8d-7fa3-1994-a5cb4c71b8b7@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 10:20 AM Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I imagine it was possible to hook up RX50s to a VAX-11/750 but I never > saw one configured that way. Why not use tape :-) We had an RUX50 on our 11/750 (I still have it). It's just another MSCP controller, but since we had a UDA50, our RUX50 was configured at an alternate address. I suppose we could have booted off of it, but we would have needed a bootstrap that could boot from a non-primary controller. Our boot ROMs only knew how to boot device 0 on the primary controller. -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 15:09:56 2022 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 21:09:56 +0000 Subject: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) In-Reply-To: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I always thought that you cannot add (PMI) memory to an 11/93. There are two versions of the 11/93. One with 2 MB, the other with 4 MB of memory _on board_. And that?s it. If you have an 11/93 CPU with 2 MB on board, the board is just half populated with memory. I don?t think you can add memory externally. But I might be wrong ? Henk, PA8PDP Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: dinsdag 22 februari 2022 18:55 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Re: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) > From: Bill Gunshannon > Just wish I could get some PMI memory for that 93. ?? The KDJ11-E in the -11/93 comes with a minimum of 2MB on the CPU card. That's enough for almost 16 maximum-sized processes (assuming they aren't sharing program texts - almost double that, if they are). Does one really need more than that for vintage retro use? Besides, the on-board memory operates at full speed (same as cache memory on the KDJ11-B); even if you added PMI memory, the KDJ11-E has no cache, so it would be a _lot_ slower than the on-board memory. Noel PS: Can people _please_ trim messages they are replying to, so we don't all have to scroll down past a bunch of irrelevant drek? Thank you. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 15:15:14 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:15:14 -0500 Subject: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) In-Reply-To: References: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/22/22 16:09, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > I always thought that you cannot add (PMI) memory to an 11/93. > There are two versions of the 11/93. One with 2 MB, the other > with 4 MB of memory _on board_. And that?s it. > If you have an 11/93 CPU with 2 MB on board, the board is just > half populated with memory. I don?t think you can add memory > externally. But I might be wrong ? > > Henk, PA8PDP > I could be wrong, too, but I always thought you could. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 15:17:36 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:17:36 -0500 Subject: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) In-Reply-To: References: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/22/22 16:15, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 2/22/22 16:09, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> I always thought that you cannot add (PMI) memory to an 11/93. >> There are two versions of the 11/93. One with 2 MB, the other >> with 4 MB of memory _on board_.?? And that?s it. >> If you have an 11/93 CPU with 2 MB on board, the board is just >> half populated with memory. I don?t think you can add memory >> externally.? But I might be wrong ? >> >> Henk, PA8PDP >> > > I could be wrong, too, but I always thought you could. > It just hit me. If someone has a 2 meg PMI board they don't want any more I would be glad to take it and find and let everyone else know. :-) bill From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 22 16:20:09 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 22:20:09 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> I'm sure that will work. Unfortunatly dd is a linux command. I only have windows PC's. simH is highly complex and needs a lot of setup. ( I know - I tried - total nightmare) It does not have support for the CMD CDD 220 SCSI controller and a RH-18A I have a working 11/83 with a 2gig SCSI drive and RX50.(it passes the diags and boots XXDP+) None of the methods suggested so far gets me an RX50 bootable OS install set. Latest fail.. putR does not as claimed write disk images to a real RX50 under W95. (write protect error) The SCSI25D costs? $150 US in the UK. So the? simple requirement to copy an RX50 disk image (which I have) to an RX50 remains. Rod On 22/02/2022 19:27, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > The 11/83 question sounds like a job for SCSI2SD to me. Install a system > with simh. dd the resulting disk image to your sd card. Hook the SCSI2SD > up to your 11/83 and boot from the card. Copy the contents of that drive > to your real SCSI drive. Done. > > SCSI2SD cards are not expensive and are a tremendous value for money. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 16:23:51 2022 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:23:51 -0500 Subject: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) In-Reply-To: References: <20220222175543.8C17918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 16:10, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > half populated with memory. I don?t think you can add memory > externally. But I might be wrong ? > You are not wrong. From the KDJ11-E module user's guide (on BitSavers) the solder-side of the CD fingers is left unpopulated, but for the +5 and ground pins. The only PMI compatible option then would be the KTJ11-B UNIBUS adapter. (You could probably use an MSV11-Q non-PMI memory to fill out the last 2MB though.) Best regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 22 16:24:39 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 22:24:39 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <36ac5e3c-4993-1fe8-2f90-d0da59d12e62@btinternet.com> On 22/02/2022 16:20, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi All > > ????? I did find some RX50 images of the MicroRSX distribution. > > ???? So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch > floppy, a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > > ?? Its accessible on my network so getting files onto it is not a > problem. > > ??? So install putR.com , and transfer the image files. > > ? ? Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is write protected. Its not and the > drive works normally with the disk from the MS DOS prompt. > > ? ?? So much for putR writes RX50's on RX33! > > ??? Rod > > So to sum up I have yet to find a tried and tested way to write a RX50 disk image to an RX50 disk on a W95 PC with a 5.25 inch drive. Rod From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 22 16:25:35 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:25:35 -0700 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <36ac5e3c-4993-1fe8-2f90-d0da59d12e62@btinternet.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <36ac5e3c-4993-1fe8-2f90-d0da59d12e62@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:24 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 22/02/2022 16:20, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > Hi All > > > > I did find some RX50 images of the MicroRSX distribution. > > > > So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch > > floppy, a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > > > > Its accessible on my network so getting files onto it is not a > > problem. > > > > So install putR.com , and transfer the image files. > > > > Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is write protected. Its not and the > > drive works normally with the disk from the MS DOS prompt. > > > > So much for putR writes RX50's on RX33! > > > > Rod > > > > > So to sum up I have yet to find a tried and tested way to write a RX50 > disk image to an RX50 disk on a W95 PC with a 5.25 inch drive. > Are you using RX50.SYS? And properly formatted media? Warner From steven at malikoff.com Tue Feb 22 16:35:11 2022 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 08:35:11 +1000 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <20220222151403.C59874E6B1@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <02e34f46-7f0c-6acd-503d-ffaa5f1b6bd9@mit.edu> <09A85EE5-F809-4244-8D9A-4B5317184A69@comcast.net> <41fa46ab-05f4-b27e-c962-d1b5ab39c30b@jetnet.ab.ca> <78ae9afacbca8b3ca7e7a41c677659d0.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <20220222151403.C59874E6B1@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <88fae5a025668676f28e52abbeae55ff.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> John said > At 08:24 PM 2/21/2022, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>Consumer-grade CNC stencil cutters are fine at cutting plastic sheet and should be ok with film stock. >>My ptap2dxf (latest version 1.3) will produce output to cut tapes for ... > > Meaning the Cricut kind of device? Clever! So it works for > short sections? > > Has anyone ever made a Cricut style cutter that has a continuous feed > of tape? > > Why did you pick AutoCAD DXF as compared to Adobe Illustrator? Exactly. Cricut-type devices, although I have not tested it on a Cricut as I have a 2016 Silhouette unit. Its driver software must be capable of importing DXFs though. The tape length is not limited by the ptap2dxf but the cutting device. So there is an option SEGMENT to split the output pieces into whatever height the cutter can handle on its sticky cutting mat, and a further option PERDXF to specify how many widths of the selected tape to put onto one mat before starting a new DXF, ie. carry across batches of cutting mat size. The sprocket hole can be placed at any position if wanted. The pieces are stuck together after lifting from the mat and 'weeding' the chads, but I've found most chads remain on the sticky mat. It's a slow process, and hundreds of times slower than a real punch, but hey. The accompanying pdf manual on github illustrates how these things are done. (Actually I just noticed I haven't updated the manual for the Whirlwind and other new options - will do so!) My machine generally uses a 12"x12" mat but can take a 12"x24" one. It can also dispense with the mat altogether and run any continuous length of material but it has to be sufficiently sturdy enough for the gripping rollers to do that, and paper tape is too flexible to be cut without a sticky mat. DXF is the most basic Lingua Franca of the CAD world, is well understood and is very simple. My CNC cutter sofware (Silhouette Studio) imports DXFs from which the cut is done immediately with no further manipulation. I use the free InkScape to view the DXF's generated. As I've not updated the doc just yet, here are the latest options in version 1.3: Usage: ptap2dxf [inputfilename.ptap] (Input ASCII file to be punched. Same as --INPUT="/path/to/inputfile") [--ASCII] (Show ASCII character representation for row on console output) [--BANNERFILE=/path/to/bannerfile] (Generate uppercase punched banner in 8x8 font from ASCII file contents) [--BANNERTEXT="YOUR TEXT"] (Generate uppercase punched banner in 8x8 font from string) [--BAUDOT] (convert ASCII characters to ITA2 Baudot. Forces 5-level output) [--CABLECODE] (Generate 2-level Morse tape with Cable Code coding (15/32 inch wide)) [--CHADLESS] (Half-punch Teletype Corp chadless holes (circa 1975)) [--CONTROL-CHARS] (Show control characters on console output) [--DRYRUN] (Run everything but do not generate DXF file(s)) [--FLIP] (Invert bit pattern. Logical NOT) [--GAP=n] (Inter-segment gap in mm between each paper segment on CNC cutting mat. Default is 0, ie. shared edges with no gap) [--HELP] (or ? prints this help) [--INPUT=/path/to/inputfile] (.ptap or any binary or ASCII input file. Optional switch, does not need to be given with filename) [--JOINER] (Make adhesive joiners for paper segments) [--LEADER=n] (Prefix output with blank sprocket punch tape in 1/10 inch increments eg. 240 is 2 feet. aka /HEADER=) [--LEVEL=n] (The number of data bits in a row of holes. Default is 8 for byte-width ASCII 8-level. Use 5 for 5-level) [--MARK=c] (Console output character to represent a mark (data bit = 1). Default is 'O' [--MIRROR] (Reverse the output mark/space bit pattern to right-left) [--NUMBER=BANNER|LEADER|CODE|TRAILER|ALL] (NOTE: --N defaults to number the code lines only) [--OUTPUT=/path/to/outputfile.dxf] (output DXF file) [--PARITY=NONE|EVEN|ODD] (Parity, if desired. Uses MSB ie. leftmost hole. {NONE, EVEN, ODD}. Default is NONE) [--PERDXF=n] (Fill CNC cutting mat with this number of 1 inch wide (for 8-level) segment strips across before starting another. 5-level = 11/16 inch) [--QUIET] (do not write any console output) [--RANGE=n,[L [-p] [+-z]] (Start generation at byte n and run for following length L or previous p or prefix/suffix z bytes) [--SEGMENT=n] (Length in 0.1 inch increments for one vertical-cut paper strip before generating adjacent segment) [--SPACE=c] (Console output character to represent a space (data bit = 0). Default is ' ' [--SPROCKET=n] (Sprocket feed hole position. Default is 3 for between 3rd and 4th data bit holes starting from right) [--TEXT="YOUR TEXT"] (Input text string to be punched, taken from the command line) [--TRAILER=n] (Suffix output with blank sprocket punch tape in 1/10 inch increments eg. 120 is 1 foot) [--VERSION] (Version number) [--WAIT] (Pause for Enter on console after running) [--WHEATSTONE] (Generate 2-level Morse tape with USN Wheatstone coding (15/32 inch wide)) [--WHIRLWIND] (Generate 7-level MIT Whirlwind (7/8 inch wide)) Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 22 16:46:24 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:46:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) Message-ID: <20220222224624.D86DD18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > dd is a linux command. UNIX, actually. (V5, I think: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/source/s1/dd.c There no 'man'page for it in V4. Anyway...) > I only have windows PC's. There are Windoze versions. I've used this one: http://www.chrysocome.net/dd with success (under XP; probably works under others, too). Noel From tmanos at concursive.com Tue Feb 22 17:05:24 2022 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:05:24 -0500 Subject: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) In-Reply-To: <20220222224624.D86DD18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220222224624.D86DD18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Or install Cygwin for a complete UNIX environment under Windoze. I don't use it all that much, but when you need it, it's fabulous. Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:46 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > dd is a linux command. > > UNIX, actually. (V5, I think: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/source/s1/dd.c > > There no 'man'page for it in V4. Anyway...) > > > > I only have windows PC's. > > There are Windoze versions. I've used this one: > > http://www.chrysocome.net/dd > > with success (under XP; probably works under others, too). > > Noel > From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 17:16:35 2022 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 23:16:35 +0000 Subject: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) In-Reply-To: References: <20220222224624.D86DD18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I prefer WSL 2. It now allows X-windows and file management between the Linux distro and Windows (at least 11,I'm not sure about 10) is very intuitive. Ray Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Tom Manos via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:05:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) Or install Cygwin for a complete UNIX environment under Windoze. I don't use it all that much, but when you need it, it's fabulous. Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:46 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > dd is a linux command. > > UNIX, actually. (V5, I think: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/source/s1/dd.c > > There no 'man'page for it in V4. Anyway...) > > > > I only have windows PC's. > > There are Windoze versions. I've used this one: > > http://www.chrysocome.net/dd > > with success (under XP; probably works under others, too). > > Noel > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 17:16:40 2022 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:16:40 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> References: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > I'm sure that will work. Unfortunatly dd is a linux command. > > I only have windows PC's. > You never answered if you have a SCSI controller in your PC, or have the ability to add a SCSI controller to your PC. If you don't, the whole discussion of using 'dd' or equivalent is moo. > simH is highly complex and needs a lot of setup. ( I know - I tried - > total nightmare) > If you think setting up and using SIMH is highly complex, wait until you find out how complex setting up and using real PDP-11 hardware is. > It does not have support for the CMD CDD 220 SCSI controller and a RH-18A > Huh? SIMH emulates MSCP controllers and attached disks of arbitrary size just fine. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Feb 22 17:17:27 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:17:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83) Message-ID: <20220222231727.5B54018C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > From the KDJ11-E module user's guide ... the solder-side of the CD > fingers is left unpopulated, but for the +5 and ground pins. > The only PMI compatible option then would be the KTJ11-B UNIBUS adapter. I forget how the -11/84-94 backplane is wired (it's wierd - the QBUS CD slots are bussed together in a group, they're not in pairs like an ordinary Q/CD backplane - but I forget the fine details), but how does the PMI get from the CPU to the KTJ11, then? I know on the same backplane, it supports PMI memory cards with the KDJ11-B. And speaking of the KDJ11-B, I just looked at one, and _it_ doesn't have any lands on the C/D connectors, side 2, either! Probably because the PMI only uses side 1 lands: https://gunkies.org/wiki/Private_Memory_Interconnect#Pinout Given that the KDJ11-E can do master-slave cycles through the KTJ11-B (to read UNIBUS device registers), it has to be able to do master-slave cycles on the PMI. What I don't know is whether, on a 2MB KDJ11-E, it will try and send memory reads for locations > 2MB out the PMI, or whether all reads below the UNIBUS address space (in 22-bit address terms) are sent to the local memory _only_. Someone with a 2MB KDJ11-E should try it... Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 22 17:29:10 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 23:29:10 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <1dbea418-54e1-1b0b-49e7-66cce04ce6de@btinternet.com> On 22/02/2022 23:16, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk > wrote: >> I'm sure that will work. Unfortunatly dd is a linux command. >> >> I only have windows PC's. >> > You never answered if you have a SCSI controller in your PC, or have > the ability to add a SCSI controller to your PC. If you don't, the > whole discussion of using 'dd' or equivalent is moo. > > >> simH is highly complex and needs a lot of setup. ( I know - I tried - >> total nightmare) >> > If you think setting up and using SIMH is highly complex, wait until > you find out how complex setting up and using real PDP-11 hardware is. > > >> It does not have support for the CMD CDD 220 SCSI controller and a RH-18A >> > Huh? SIMH emulates MSCP controllers and attached disks of arbitrary > size just fine. PDP hardware setup ? Well I worked for digital between 1975 and 1985. R From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 17:32:07 2022 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:32:07 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <1dbea418-54e1-1b0b-49e7-66cce04ce6de@btinternet.com> References: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> <1dbea418-54e1-1b0b-49e7-66cce04ce6de@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:29 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 22/02/2022 23:16, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk > > wrote: > >> I'm sure that will work. Unfortunatly dd is a linux command. > >> > >> I only have windows PC's. > >> > > You never answered if you have a SCSI controller in your PC, or have > > the ability to add a SCSI controller to your PC. If you don't, the > > whole discussion of using 'dd' or equivalent is moo. > > > > > >> simH is highly complex and needs a lot of setup. ( I know - I tried - > >> total nightmare) > >> > > If you think setting up and using SIMH is highly complex, wait until > > you find out how complex setting up and using real PDP-11 hardware is. > > > > > >> It does not have support for the CMD CDD 220 SCSI controller and a > RH-18A > >> > > Huh? SIMH emulates MSCP controllers and attached disks of arbitrary > > size just fine. > > PDP hardware setup ? Well I worked for digital between 1975 and 1985. > Then you should be able to make SIMH work, no problem. - Josh > > R > > > From js at cimmeri.com Tue Feb 22 17:33:02 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:33:02 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Rod, Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB equivalent) would write working RX50 800k (double density) disks. Very different drives. I've successfully put an actual RX-50 drive on my PC, and written RX-50 images using PUTR. You might try that route. - John Singleton On 2/22/2022 11:20 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi All > > I did find some RX50 images of > the MicroRSX distribution. > > So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. > It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch floppy, > a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > > Its accessible on my network so > getting files onto it is not a problem. > > So install putR.com , and transfer > the image files. > > Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is > write protected. Its not and the drive > works normally with the disk from the > MS DOS prompt. > > So much for putR writes RX50's on > RX33! > > Rod > > > > From js at cimmeri.com Tue Feb 22 17:34:36 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:34:36 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <6215730C.2060201@cimmeri.com> On 2/22/2022 11:20 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi All > > I did find some RX50 images of > the MicroRSX distribution. > So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. > It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch floppy, > a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > Its accessible on my network so > getting files onto it is not a problem. > So install putR.com , and transfer > the image files. > Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is > write protected. Its not and the drive > works normally with the disk from the > MS DOS prompt. > So much for putR writes RX50's on > RX33! > > Rod Rod, Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB equivalent) would write working RX50 800k (double density) disks. Very different drives. I've successfully put an actual RX-50 drive on my PC, and written RX-50 images using PUTR. You might try that route. - John Singleton From tmanos at concursive.com Tue Feb 22 17:42:07 2022 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:42:07 -0500 Subject: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) In-Reply-To: References: <20220222224624.D86DD18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'd never heard of it until now. My main disk is reasonably full. Can I install it on a data disk? Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 6:16 PM Ray Jewhurst wrote: > I prefer WSL 2. It now allows X-windows and file management between the > Linux distro and Windows (at least 11,I'm not sure about 10) is very > intuitive. > > Ray > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Tom Manos via > cctalk > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:05:24 PM > *To:* General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > *Subject:* Re: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) > > Or install Cygwin for a complete UNIX environment under Windoze. I don't > use it all that much, but when you need it, it's fabulous. > > Tom > ------ > Tom Manos, CTO > Concursive Corporation > > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:46 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > > > dd is a linux command. > > > > UNIX, actually. (V5, I think: > > > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/source/s1/dd.c > > > > There no 'man'page for it in V4. Anyway...) > > > > > > > I only have windows PC's. > > > > There are Windoze versions. I've used this one: > > > > http://www.chrysocome.net/dd > > > > with success (under XP; probably works under others, too). > > > > Noel > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 22 17:42:38 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:42:38 -0700 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 4:36 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > > Rod, > > Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB > equivalent) would write working RX50 > 800k (double density) disks. Very > different drives. > The RX-33 is the same sort of drive that you had in your PC if you wrote RX-50s with your PC. Back in the day, lots of people used RX50.SYS to have it setup the transfer rates, RPM and sectors per track parameters so that you could read/write them on a PC running DOS. The parameters are basically the same ones you need to write the 360k DOS floppies, only with twice the number of tracks and 10 sectors per track instead of 9 (this is done by making the track gaps smaller and eeking an extra sector out of the deal, but using at the same data rates). > I've successfully put an actual RX-50 > drive on my PC, and written RX-50 images > using PUTR. You might try that route. > Did you have difficulties with Pin34 not being the change disk pin? That's what I ran into when I tried this many many years ago... Warner > - John Singleton > > On 2/22/2022 11:20 AM, Rod Smallwood via > cctalk wrote: > > Hi All > > > > I did find some RX50 images of > > the MicroRSX distribution. > > > > So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. > > It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch floppy, > > a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > > > > Its accessible on my network so > > getting files onto it is not a problem. > > > > So install putR.com , and transfer > > the image files. > > > > Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is > > write protected. Its not and the drive > > works normally with the disk from the > > MS DOS prompt. > > > > So much for putR writes RX50's on > > RX33! > > > > Rod > > > > > > > > > From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 17:53:48 2022 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 23:53:48 +0000 Subject: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) In-Reply-To: References: <20220222224624.D86DD18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Unfortunately you cannot because you have to download the actual Linux image through the Windows Store. Ubuntu 20.04 weighs about half a gig plus whatever packages you install. Also, you need to turn on WSL through Add/Remove Windows Features. Hope that helps Ray Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Tom Manos Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:42:07 PM To: Ray Jewhurst Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) I'd never heard of it until now. My main disk is reasonably full. Can I install it on a data disk? Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 6:16 PM Ray Jewhurst > wrote: I prefer WSL 2. It now allows X-windows and file management between the Linux distro and Windows (at least 11,I'm not sure about 10) is very intuitive. Ray Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: cctalk > on behalf of Tom Manos via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:05:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 'dd' for Windoze (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21) Or install Cygwin for a complete UNIX environment under Windoze. I don't use it all that much, but when you need it, it's fabulous. Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:46 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > dd is a linux command. > > UNIX, actually. (V5, I think: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/source/s1/dd.c > > There no 'man'page for it in V4. Anyway...) > > > > I only have windows PC's. > > There are Windoze versions. I've used this one: > > http://www.chrysocome.net/dd > > with success (under XP; probably works under others, too). > > Noel > From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 18:00:59 2022 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 00:00:59 +0000 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: I read that you can indeed use a standard 1.2 Meg drive and that you can also use DSHD 5.25 disks in place of RX50s. Is there any truth in this? If there is it will be much easier and cheaper to make disks for my Rainbow. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Warner Losh via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:42:38 PM To: js at cimmeri.com ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: General at ezwind.net Subject: Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 4:36 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > > Rod, > > Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB > equivalent) would write working RX50 > 800k (double density) disks. Very > different drives. > The RX-33 is the same sort of drive that you had in your PC if you wrote RX-50s with your PC. Back in the day, lots of people used RX50.SYS to have it setup the transfer rates, RPM and sectors per track parameters so that you could read/write them on a PC running DOS. The parameters are basically the same ones you need to write the 360k DOS floppies, only with twice the number of tracks and 10 sectors per track instead of 9 (this is done by making the track gaps smaller and eeking an extra sector out of the deal, but using at the same data rates). > I've successfully put an actual RX-50 > drive on my PC, and written RX-50 images > using PUTR. You might try that route. > Did you have difficulties with Pin34 not being the change disk pin? That's what I ran into when I tried this many many years ago... Warner > - John Singleton > > On 2/22/2022 11:20 AM, Rod Smallwood via > cctalk wrote: > > Hi All > > > > I did find some RX50 images of > > the MicroRSX distribution. > > > > So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. > > It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch floppy, > > a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > > > > Its accessible on my network so > > getting files onto it is not a problem. > > > > So install putR.com , and transfer > > the image files. > > > > Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is > > write protected. Its not and the drive > > works normally with the disk from the > > MS DOS prompt. > > > > So much for putR writes RX50's on > > RX33! > > > > Rod > > > > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 22 18:03:38 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:03:38 -0800 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 2/22/22 15:33, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > Rod, > > ? Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB equivalent) would write working RX50 800k > (double density) disks.? Very different drives. I've copied RX50 disks for a customer. 96 tpi 80 cylinder single-sided, 10 x 512 byte sectors. You should be able to do this on a Windows PC with a 1.2MB 5.25" drive and the appropriate utility, say, IMD. The disks don't need the little red arrow stickers; use ordinary "360K" media. --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Tue Feb 22 18:08:02 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 19:08:02 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> On 2/22/2022 6:42 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 4:36 PM js--- > via cctalk > wrote: > > > Rod, > > Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB > equivalent) would write working RX50 > 800k (double density) disks. Very > different drives. > > > The RX-33 is the same sort of drive > that you had in your PC if you wrote > RX-50s with your PC. Back in the day, > lots of people used RX50.SYS to > have it setup the transfer rates, RPM > and sectors per track parameters > so that you could read/write them on a > PC running DOS. The parameters > are basically the same ones you need > to write the 360k DOS floppies, only > with twice the number of tracks and 10 > sectors per track instead of 9 (this is > done by making the track gaps smaller > and eeking an extra sector out of the > deal, but using at the same data rates). Thanks for reminding me, Warner. To recap: The format used on a RX50 disk is: Single Sided, 80 tracks, 10 sectors per track 96 TPI, 300 RPM, 250 KHz data rate ... which translates to 400K SSQD. The format of a high density 5.25" PC disk is: Double Sided, 80 tracks, 15 sectors per track 96 TPI, 360 RPM, 500 KHz data rate ... which translates to 1.2MB DSHD. So to use an actual RX-50 on my PC, I just had to use an FDC capable of slowing down the data rate, and make a floppy cable to route the signals properly (minor changes from a PC floppy cable). What Rod *might be* running up against with using PUTR and his RX-33, is that his RX-33 RPM and data rate might not be slowing down to equal that of the RX-50... which could be an FDC problem. Does the RX-33 automatically slow the RPM if the data rate drops to 250khz? - John Singleton > I've successfully put an actual > RX-50 > drive on my PC, and written RX-50 > images > using PUTR. You might try that route. > > > Did you have difficulties with Pin34 > not being the change disk pin? That's what > I ran into when I tried this many many > years ago... > > Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 22 18:11:12 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:11:12 -0700 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:01 PM Ray Jewhurst wrote: > I read that you can indeed use a standard 1.2 Meg drive and that you can > also use DSHD 5.25 disks in place of RX50s. Is there any truth in this? If > there is it will be much easier and cheaper to make disks for my Rainbow. > I'd avoid the HD diskettes, since they are designed for the recording rates / magnetic field densities of the 1.2 floppies. Some people have done it successfully, though. Back in the day, there were many reports of people doing this in their new AT or newer computers, but with a elevated error rate... good enough for data transfer most of the time, but you'll occasionally need to rewrite them. I've successfully used DSDD disks in place of the now rather rare DSQD disks. Based on long-term read back from disks I did this with in the 80s and 90s, I'd say the retention is a bit worse, but if you are just making a distribution set and reading it right away, you won't go far wrong. After 30 years, the failure rate was like 5%, back in the day it was closer to 1%, so I'd expect that now. It's what I did when I burned copies of the Venix/86 disks to boot on my Rainbow... I've done it with both RX50.SYS and a 1.2M drive on a DOS back years ago, and with a real RX-50 back in the day, and just recently. Though come to think of it, all the disks were formatted on my Rainbow under DOS with the hard format option.... Warner > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Warner Losh > via cctalk > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:42:38 PM > *To:* js at cimmeri.com ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > *Cc:* General at ezwind.net > *Subject:* Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 4:36 PM js--- via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > Rod, > > > > Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB > > equivalent) would write working RX50 > > 800k (double density) disks. Very > > different drives. > > > > The RX-33 is the same sort of drive that you had in your PC if you wrote > RX-50s with your PC. Back in the day, lots of people used RX50.SYS to > have it setup the transfer rates, RPM and sectors per track parameters > so that you could read/write them on a PC running DOS. The parameters > are basically the same ones you need to write the 360k DOS floppies, only > with twice the number of tracks and 10 sectors per track instead of 9 (this > is > done by making the track gaps smaller and eeking an extra sector out of the > deal, but using at the same data rates). > > > > I've successfully put an actual RX-50 > > drive on my PC, and written RX-50 images > > using PUTR. You might try that route. > > > > Did you have difficulties with Pin34 not being the change disk pin? That's > what > I ran into when I tried this many many years ago... > > Warner > > > > - John Singleton > > > > On 2/22/2022 11:20 AM, Rod Smallwood via > > cctalk wrote: > > > Hi All > > > > > > I did find some RX50 images of > > > the MicroRSX distribution. > > > > > > So I fired up my DEC Celebris FX. > > > It runs W95 and has a 3.5 inch floppy, > > > a real RX33 5.25 inch drive and a CD-R. > > > > > > Its accessible on my network so > > > getting files onto it is not a problem. > > > > > > So install putR.com , and transfer > > > the image files. > > > > > > Huh! putR says the RX50 disk is > > > write protected. Its not and the drive > > > works normally with the disk from the > > > MS DOS prompt. > > > > > > So much for putR writes RX50's on > > > RX33! > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From js at cimmeri.com Tue Feb 22 18:12:49 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 19:12:49 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> On 2/22/2022 7:00 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > I read that you can indeed use a > standard 1.2 Meg drive and that you > can also use DSHD 5.25 disks in place > of RX50s. Is there any truth in this? > If there is it will be much easier and > cheaper to make disks for my Rainbow. As Chuck noted, I'd think you'd want to use 360K media -- not DSHD diskettes... and ensure that the 1.2MB drive is slowing down to 300RPM with a data rate of 250KHZ. These features will depend on the 1.2MB drive you have, as well as your FDC and imaging software. - John Singleton From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 22 18:28:29 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:28:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: DD 5.25" disks are about 300 Oersted. HD 5.25" disks are about 600 Oersted. If you use HD disks to write DD content, the data fades away real fast. However, on 3.5" disks, the difference is more like 600 Oersted VS 750 Oersted, and you may get away with using the wrong disk. 360K disks are tested/certified for 40 track (48tpi) double density. Although not tested/certified for 80 track 96tpi, the cookie is the same, and they generally can handle 80 track (96tp) double density just fine. Disks of extremely marginal quality (such as Wabash, or pre-Datalife Verbatem) can still give you troubles. In general, commercial 1.2M drives are also intended to be able to read/write(with track width problems!) 360K disks. So, if the write current is at the "360K" level, and you get the data transfer rate correct (250K at 300RPM or 300K at 360RPM), and you get the drive to NOT "double step", then you can, indeed, read/write 80 track DD disks using a 1.2M drive. Using a double density 80 track drive, such as the the Tandon TM100-4, Shugart/Panasonic/Matsushita 465, or the Teac 55F makes it a little simpler/easier, since those drives don't HAVE multiple write currents, nor 360RPM, so just let the PC FDC think that it is a 360K drive (other than being 96tpi with 80 tracks), and the other issues aren't there. 10 512 byte sectors per track is similar to the 8 or 9 sector per track PC track format, other than squeezing an extra sector onto each track, by redducing the sector gaps. Readily doable with INT13h (plus INT 1Eh), and not even having to talk directly to the FDC. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Wed, 23 Feb 2022, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > I read that you can indeed use a standard 1.2 Meg drive and that you can also use DSHD 5.25 disks in place of RX50s. Is there any truth in this? If there is it will be much easier and cheaper to make disks for my Rainbow. > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Get Outlook for Android From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 18:29:21 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 19:29:21 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> References: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <4CCAEC5E-D8AB-4223-890E-CD6284C02F78@comcast.net> You could boot a packaged Linux that doesn't need installation but runs directly from the boot device. I haven't done this but I know they are out there and easy to use. SimH complex and lots of setup? Not my experience. The documentation may be sparse in places, as I found when configuring a PDP-10 setup, but the PDP-11 setups are well documented. SCSI controller, that's beside the point. I assume it looks to the PDP-11 as an MSCP controller, right? It would have to be, else you'd have no chance of running a standard OS. If so, you'd just tell SIMH to configure an MSCP controller with a disk of size matching what you have. When you said "won't write a disk image to a real RX50" do you mean an RX50 drive, or an RX50 floppy in a plain PC 5.25 inch drive? I don't know about the former, but the latter has long worked for me. I haven't used Windows for stuff like that in ages, and don't want to use it if I can avoid it, but my RSTSFLX 2.6 can be build for DOS (using DJGPP). I don't have an executable of that version handy but could probably create one. That doesn't create from images, though; it manipulates RSTS file systems. A simple program to copy an image, along the lines of the rx50.py I mentioned, would not be hard to make. paul > On Feb 22, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > I'm sure that will work. Unfortunatly dd is a linux command. > > I only have windows PC's. > > simH is highly complex and needs a lot of setup. ( I know - I tried - total nightmare) > > It does not have support for the CMD CDD 220 SCSI controller and a RH-18A > > I have a working 11/83 with a 2gig SCSI drive and RX50.(it passes the diags and boots XXDP+) > > None of the methods suggested so far gets me an RX50 bootable OS install set. > > Latest fail.. putR does not as claimed write disk images to a real RX50 under W95. (write protect error) > > The SCSI25D costs $150 US in the UK. > > So the simple requirement to copy an RX50 disk image (which I have) to an RX50 remains. > > Rod > > > > > > On 22/02/2022 19:27, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> The 11/83 question sounds like a job for SCSI2SD to me. Install a system >> with simh. dd the resulting disk image to your sd card. Hook the SCSI2SD >> up to your 11/83 and boot from the card. Copy the contents of that drive >> to your real SCSI drive. Done. >> >> SCSI2SD cards are not expensive and are a tremendous value for money. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 22 18:31:53 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:31:53 -0800 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 2/22/22 16:12, js--- via cctalk wrote: > As Chuck noted, I'd think you'd want to use 360K media -- not DSHD > diskettes... and ensure that the 1.2MB drive is slowing down to 300RPM > with a data rate of 250KHZ. > > These features will depend on the 1.2MB drive you have, as well as your > FDC and imaging software. Use low-density media--the high-density stuff really requires higher write currents (media is formulated for higher magnetic coercivity) to work to spec. Any PC that supports 1.2M 5.25" high-density media has a controller that can vary the clock rate between 250, 300 and 500 Kbit/sec. Clearly, if you're using a garden-variety "1.2M" drive, you'd want to use the 300K data rate, as those drives *generally* spin the disk at 360 RPM. (sort of a mountain-Mohammed issue. If you can't slow down the spindle speed, boost the data rate). There are several PC (MS-DOS) utilities that can handle this. You pretty much need the ones that do low-level controller access, as most PC software assumes that low-density disks will double-step to get the standard 48 tpi track spacing). If you're bamboozled by any of this, drop me a line and I'll shoot you a simple MSDOS utility that will write RX-50 disk formats on a standard PC. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 22 18:33:12 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:33:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: >From the FDC point of view, which doesn't have optical view of the drive and media, the 80 track DD 5.25" looks similar to a "720K 3.5" drive. (80 tracks, 9 sectors per track, 300 RPM, 250K data transgfer rate) On SOME PCs, setting the CMOS floppy setting to "720K" may take care of it. On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/22/2022 6:42 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 4:36 PM js--- via cctalk > > wrote: >> >> >> Rod, >> >> Not sure an RX33 (if 1.2MB >> equivalent) would write working RX50 >> 800k (double density) disks. Very >> different drives. >> >> >> The RX-33 is the same sort of drive that you had in your PC if you wrote >> RX-50s with your PC. Back in the day, lots of people used RX50.SYS to >> have it setup the transfer rates, RPM and sectors per track parameters >> so that you could read/write them on a PC running DOS. The parameters >> are basically the same ones you need to write the 360k DOS floppies, only >> with twice the number of tracks and 10 sectors per track instead of 9 (this >> is >> done by making the track gaps smaller and eeking an extra sector out of the >> deal, but using at the same data rates). > > Thanks for reminding me, Warner. To recap: > > The format used on a RX50 disk is: > Single Sided, 80 tracks, 10 sectors per track > 96 TPI, 300 RPM, 250 KHz data rate > ... which translates to 400K SSQD. > > The format of a high density 5.25" PC disk is: > Double Sided, 80 tracks, 15 sectors per track > 96 TPI, 360 RPM, 500 KHz data rate > ... which translates to 1.2MB DSHD. > > So to use an actual RX-50 on my PC, I just had to use an FDC capable of > slowing down the data rate, and make a floppy cable to route the signals > properly (minor changes from a PC floppy cable). > > What Rod *might be* running up against with using PUTR and his RX-33, is that > his RX-33 RPM and data rate might not be slowing down to equal that of the > RX-50... which could be an FDC problem. Does the RX-33 automatically slow > the RPM if the data rate drops to 250khz? > > - John Singleton > > > >> I've successfully put an actual >> RX-50 >> drive on my PC, and written RX-50 >> images >> using PUTR. You might try that route. >> >> >> Did you have difficulties with Pin34 not being the change disk pin? That's >> what >> I ran into when I tried this many many years ago... >> >> Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 22 18:45:21 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: A little over 40 years ago, while we were still using TRS80's at the college, the purchasing agent was sleeping with a vendor, and got us RoyType HD diskettes, instead of what we asked for (Verbatim Datalife). When used in the TRS80s, it would format and write without showing errors, but minutes later, the disk was blank again! Do NOT use HD diskettes to write DD formats! (yes, on 3.5", you can use a high quality HD diskette to get a poor quality DD diskette, but on 5.25", you usually do NOT get away with it. Can you finish your use of the disk before it fades away?) From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Feb 22 19:08:37 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:08:37 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <5C43B939-7A41-42E0-9F1A-D7D8DEB5D050@comcast.net> > On Feb 22, 2022, at 7:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > From the FDC point of view, which doesn't have optical view of the drive and media, the 80 track DD 5.25" looks similar to a "720K 3.5" drive. > (80 tracks, 9 sectors per track, 300 RPM, 250K data transgfer rate) > > On SOME PCs, setting the CMOS floppy setting to "720K" may take care of it. Originally I wrote my RX50 floppies on a Windows PC. The drive was a plain old 5.25 inch PC drive, normally used for 9 sector per track PC floppies. It turns out some BIOS operations will reset it to 10 sectors, which is RX50 format, and then BIOS int13 operations can read and write it. I coded up support for that in RSTSFLX, which can be found on my Subversion server (in branches/V2.6). The original version was built with Borland C++, but I switched to DJGPP which made all that much easier. No CMOS or other magic needed, just an application that knows how to speak int13. And of course an old enough Windows, or plain DOS, which allows you to do those operations. Subsequently I moved all this to Linux. There is (was?) a tool -- fdparm? -- that you could use to tweak the floppy layout settings. A simple entry in its config file would give the RX50 layout. Then it's just a matter of handling the sector interleaving, track skew, and odd track numbering. With just a few more lines of code, the application can handle the parameter setting so no prior setup is needed, which is what I ended up doing in RSTSFLX (in C). The latest version does this as well, but in Python. So as far as I can see, all this stuff is perfectly easy if you just use a plain ordinary floppy drive. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 19:43:35 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:43:35 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <5C43B939-7A41-42E0-9F1A-D7D8DEB5D050@comcast.net> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> <5C43B939-7A41-42E0-9F1A-D7D8DEB5D050@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2/22/22 20:08, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Feb 22, 2022, at 7:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> From the FDC point of view, which doesn't have optical view of the drive and media, the 80 track DD 5.25" looks similar to a "720K 3.5" drive. >> (80 tracks, 9 sectors per track, 300 RPM, 250K data transgfer rate) >> >> On SOME PCs, setting the CMOS floppy setting to "720K" may take care of it. > > Originally I wrote my RX50 floppies on a Windows PC. The drive was a plain old 5.25 inch PC drive, normally used for 9 sector per track PC floppies. It turns out some BIOS operations will reset it to 10 sectors, which is RX50 format, and then BIOS int13 operations can read and write it. I coded up support for that in RSTSFLX, which can be found on my Subversion server (in branches/V2.6). The original version was built with Borland C++, but I switched to DJGPP which made all that much easier. No CMOS or other magic needed, just an application that knows how to speak int13. And of course an old enough Windows, or plain DOS, which allows you to do those operations. > > Subsequently I moved all this to Linux. There is (was?) a tool -- fdparm? -- that you could use to tweak the floppy layout settings. A simple entry in its config file would give the RX50 layout. Then it's just a matter of handling the sector interleaving, track skew, and odd track numbering. With just a few more lines of code, the application can handle the parameter setting so no prior setup is needed, which is what I ended up doing in RSTSFLX (in C). The latest version does this as well, but in Python. > > So as far as I can see, all this stuff is perfectly easy if you just use a plain ordinary floppy drive. > Hmmm.. I wonder if I could do any of this with my OS9 system running on a Tandy COCO? Lot's of ability to fudge with disk formats and you can't find a controller much older. :-) Makes me wonder about the other old TRS80's. All handle 5.25 floppies and have old controllers. And OSes that let you do pretty much anything you want. Even shoot yourself in the foot. I wonder if I even have any RX50 floppies laying still around here anywhere? bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 22 20:17:59 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:17:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> <5C43B939-7A41-42E0-9F1A-D7D8DEB5D050@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm.. I wonder if I could do any of this with my OS9 system > running on a Tandy COCO? Lot's of ability to fudge with disk > formats and you can't find a controller much older. :-) > Makes me wonder about the other old TRS80's. All handle 5.25 > floppies and have old controllers. And OSes that let you do > pretty much anything you want. Even shoot yourself in the foot. > > I wonder if I even have any RX50 floppies laying still around > here anywhere? Certainly! The Coco used a Western Digital 179x controller. I don't remember which specific one, and for simple stuff like this, it won't matter much. The WD doesn't have the "flash blindness" that sometimes interferes with the NEC 765 series when reading disks where the first sector is too soon after the index pulse. The WD has a semi-raw track read that is real handy (The NEC has a multiple sector read, but not a raw track read) There have been some programs on the Coco for reading and writing some other formats. ISTR Dr. Marty did one on the Coco for reading PC disks. (probably published in Rainbow) The TRS80 Model 3 and 4 also used 179x controllers. With very different operating systems (The Randy Cook family of OS). Look for "TRSCross"?, by Mike Gingel, as a program running on TRS80. Also, "Trakcess" is very handy for analyzing disks, although you need to do some trivial mods to it for double sided, etc. Looking at the program of Trakcess will make it easy to get the basics to do almost anything that you want to do. William Barden did a nice pamphlet on disk I/O for TRS80. Then Harv (HC) Pennington wrote very extensively about the internals of TRS-DOS. Until August 1981, when the 5150 came out, my disk format conversion work was on TRS80. The TRS80 model 1 used the 1771 controller which was single density only. And, the original SA400 single sided drive on it only got 35 tracks. Be careful, the second side signal on the cable is used on the Model 1 as drive select for the fourth drive! (Tandy wasn't planning on DS drives) But, the retrofit "Doubler" added a 179x controller. As a REAL programmer, you can shoot yourself in the foot with any language or operating system! (Is that the definition of programmer?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 22 20:29:43 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 02:29:43 +0000 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 Message-ID: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Hi ?? Well I have had a huge response to my request. I am unsure as to if I have defined the problem properly. So a few bullet points. 1. The objective is to copy RX50 disk images (*.dsk format) to genuine DEC RX50 disks. 2. The PC I want to use is a DEC Celeibris FX ie the PC and its W95 software is as supplied by DEC. 3. It has an RX33 5.25 inch floppy drive. 4. The RX33 _*is*_ capable of? reading and writing RX50 disks. 5.? putR was supposed to be able to do this. It does not. 6.? All that is lacking is the right utility. 7. Doing this does not need any disks other than RX50's. 8. Linux in any of its myriad of forms is not the answer. 9. simH is good at what it does but of no use here 10.? Its just a W95 utility program to copy an RX50 disk image to an RX50 disk on an RX33 drive on a DEC PC. 11. So whats it called? Does it work? given the above situation? Rod From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 22 20:44:00 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:44:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157AE2.2060201@cimmeri.com> <5C43B939-7A41-42E0-9F1A-D7D8DEB5D050@comcast.net> Message-ID: Corrections: I think that Mike Gingel did both a program on PC for read/write TRS-DOS family, AND did one on TRS-DOS for other formats. I don't remember which one was which, but I think that the one running on TRS80 might be "Hypercross", with "PC Cross Zap"? being the one running on PC? http://www.oldcomputers.it/parts/r/radio/TRS80_4/docs/trs80-xf.htm Roxton Baker was the author of TRAKCESS. I remember Alan Gelder (TBug enhancements) helped Baker with the machine language portions. https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/software-manuals/manuals-trakcess-1.95.pdf Harv Pennington's first book (before he got carried away) was "TRS80 Disk And Other Mysteries". Later on, he even got involved in marketing a port of Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil" to PC! On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 22 Feb 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Hmmm.. I wonder if I could do any of this with my OS9 system >> running on a Tandy COCO? Lot's of ability to fudge with disk >> formats and you can't find a controller much older. :-) >> Makes me wonder about the other old TRS80's. All handle 5.25 >> floppies and have old controllers. And OSes that let you do >> pretty much anything you want. Even shoot yourself in the foot. >> >> I wonder if I even have any RX50 floppies laying still around >> here anywhere? > > Certainly! > > The Coco used a Western Digital 179x controller. I don't remember which > specific one, and for simple stuff like this, it won't matter much. > > The WD doesn't have the "flash blindness" that sometimes interferes with the > NEC 765 series when reading disks where the first sector is too soon after > the index pulse. > The WD has a semi-raw track read that is real handy (The NEC has a multiple > sector read, but not a raw track read) > > > There have been some programs on the Coco for reading and writing some other > formats. ISTR Dr. Marty did one on the Coco for reading PC disks. (probably > published in Rainbow) > > The TRS80 Model 3 and 4 also used 179x controllers. With very different > operating systems (The Randy Cook family of OS). Look for by > Mike Gingel, as a program running on TRS80. > Also, "Trakcess" is very handy for analyzing disks, although you need to do > some trivial mods to it for double sided, etc. > Looking at the program of Trakcess will make it easy to get the basics to do > almost anything that you want to do. > William Barden did a nice pamphlet on disk I/O for TRS80. > Then Harv (HC) Pennington wrote very extensively about the internals of > TRS-DOS. > > > Until August 1981, when the 5150 came out, my disk format conversion work was > on TRS80. > > > The TRS80 model 1 used the 1771 controller which was single density only. > And, the original SA400 single sided drive on it only got 35 tracks. > Be careful, the second side signal on the cable is used on the Model 1 as > drive select for the fourth drive! (Tandy wasn't planning on DS drives) > But, the retrofit "Doubler" added a 179x controller. > > > As a REAL programmer, you can shoot yourself in the foot with any language or > operating system! (Is that the definition of programmer?) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Feb 22 21:43:48 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 21:43:48 -0600 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 2/22/2022 6:12 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/22/2022 7:00 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: >> I read that you can indeed use a standard 1.2 Meg drive and that you >> can also use DSHD 5.25 disks in place of RX50s. Is there any truth in >> this? If there is it will be much easier and cheaper to make disks for >> my Rainbow. > > > As Chuck noted, I'd think you'd want to use 360K media -- not DSHD > diskettes... and ensure that the 1.2MB drive is slowing down to 300RPM > with a data rate of 250KHZ. > > These features will depend on the 1.2MB drive you have, as well as your > FDC and imaging software. > > - John Singleton Writing a 360KB or RX50 diskette with a 1.2MB drive is a path to a lot of frustration. Not only do you have to double step the drive (software often takes care of that part), but the tracks written will be narrower than a real RX50 / 306KB drive, providing a smaller signal/noise ratio. And, if you don't start with completely magnetically erased media, any left over junk in any data left over may be picked up by the RX50 head. Been there, done that. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Feb 22 21:47:19 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 21:47:19 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 89, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <4CCAEC5E-D8AB-4223-890E-CD6284C02F78@comcast.net> References: <727632fd-ba13-c269-21f4-8befb43ec7ca@btinternet.com> <4CCAEC5E-D8AB-4223-890E-CD6284C02F78@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6547292a-0283-b519-e6ba-6f284448588d@charter.net> On 2/22/2022 6:29 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > You could boot a packaged Linux that doesn't need installation but runs directly from the boot device. I haven't done this but I know they are out there and easy to use. > I use Clonezilla for standalone Linux stuff (including backups) - they have ready to run UEFI USB images and CD images. You can get to a command prompt and enter "sudo bash" to get a root shell. Useful for all sorts of stuff. There are also Ubuntu "live" CD images out there, or at least were, a few years back. JRJ From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Feb 22 21:59:42 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:59:42 -0700 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 8:43 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 2/22/2022 6:12 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 2/22/2022 7:00 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > >> I read that you can indeed use a standard 1.2 Meg drive and that you > >> can also use DSHD 5.25 disks in place of RX50s. Is there any truth in > >> this? If there is it will be much easier and cheaper to make disks for > >> my Rainbow. > > > > > > As Chuck noted, I'd think you'd want to use 360K media -- not DSHD > > diskettes... and ensure that the 1.2MB drive is slowing down to 300RPM > > with a data rate of 250KHZ. > > > > These features will depend on the 1.2MB drive you have, as well as your > > FDC and imaging software. > > > > - John Singleton > > Writing a 360KB or RX50 diskette with a 1.2MB drive is a path to a lot > of frustration. Not only do you have to double step the drive (software > often takes care of that part), but the tracks written will be narrower > than a real RX50 / 306KB drive, providing a smaller signal/noise ratio. Not true. Not for RX50 at least. Both the 1.2MB format and the RX50 format use 80 tracks. There is no double stepping or half width tracks involved. > And, if you don't start with completely magnetically erased media, any > left over junk in any data left over may be picked up by the RX50 head. > Also not true. Writing a full track to format it results in well formed media. As long as you don't use HD media. DD or QD media works just fine. Been there, done that. > I have as well, and things don't work the way you say. The TEAC 55 drives are able to do this. In college I exchanged data between a data collection AT and a MicroVAX ii on RX50 media. It was sometimes formatted on my Rainbow at home and later on the AT since I got tired of being in the loop. We had none of these problems as long as we avoided HD media. Warner > JRJ > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 22 22:40:47 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:40:47 -0800 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 2/22/22 19:43, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Writing a 360KB or RX50 diskette with a 1.2MB drive is a path to a lot > of frustration.? Not only do you have to double step the drive (software > often takes care of that part), but the tracks written will be narrower > than a real RX50 / 306KB drive, providing a smaller signal/noise ratio. > ?And, if you don't start with completely magnetically erased media, any > left over junk in any data left over may be picked up by the RX50 head. The RX50 format is a single-sided 96 tpi one, vix: The format used on a RX50 disk is: single sided 80 tracks 10 sectors per track 96 tpi (tracks per inch) 300 rpm (revolutions per minute) 250 KHz data rate >From http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/rx50.html This is very different from the PC 360K format, which is double-sided 40 tracks 9 sectors per track 48 tpi 300 rpm 250 Khz data rate. A "1.2M" disk drive normally spins at 360 RPM, so you have to set the data rate at 300 Khz. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 22:59:41 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 23:59:41 -0500 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62157C01.1020604@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 10:43 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Writing a 360KB or RX50 diskette with a 1.2MB drive is a path to a lot > of frustration. Not only do you have to double step the drive (software > often takes care of that part), but the tracks written will be narrower > than a real RX50 / 306KB drive... A real RX50 is an 80-track drive. You are correct that writing a "360K" floppy on a high-density drive is not a good idea, but a real RX50 _is_ 80 tracks, just single-sided, for a total of 400KB per disk. The RX50 drive itself has one rotation motor and one positioner motor but the heads face outward from the middle, one head per disk. The hub is a strange split affair where the top rotates the opposite direction from the bottom (and is driven by a belt in the middle). A somewhat unique arrangement in the peripheral arena. -ethan From cube1 at charter.net Tue Feb 22 23:16:10 2022 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 23:16:10 -0600 Subject: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74F3550E-806C-45AD-BE13-6353A6BCC427@charter.net> Sent from my iPad > On Feb 22, 2022, at 22:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ?On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 10:43 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: >> Writing a 360KB or RX50 diskette with a 1.2MB drive is a path to a lot >> of frustration. Not only do you have to double step the drive (software >> often takes care of that part), but the tracks written will be narrower >> than a real RX50 / 306KB drive... > > A real RX50 is an 80-track drive. You are correct that writing a > "360K" floppy on a high-density drive is not a good idea, but a real > RX50 _is_ 80 tracks, just single-sided, for a total of 400KB per disk. > Yeah, I had forgotten that. > -ethan From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Feb 23 00:02:27 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 06:02:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Speaking_of=C2=A0_tubes_in_computers...._1st_Honeywe?= =?UTF-8?Q?ll_1000_computer_used_some_surprise_tubes!=C2=A0_=C2=A0=C2=A0_?= References: <200992555.752818.1645596147719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200992555.752818.1645596147719@mail.yahoo.com> Speaking of? tubes in computers.... 1st Honeywell 1000 computer used some surprise tubes!? ??Imagine our surprise back then as? we unpacked our? first? group of? contributed Honeywell 1000 logic and saw....? LOCTAL TUBES!?Although SMECC does not? have? a complete Honeywell system of? this model? (CPU and? PS would? weigh in at 25,000 pounds? we have been told)? We DO possess? a wonderful collection? of documentation, parts? and? misc.? material related? to it, perhaps one of the best. Who else has some? We? used? to? think our 2 inch QUAD? videotape was a monster reel of? tape...BUT? WAIT!The First Honeywell Computer used 3 Inch Wide Tape! It was like mounting a Volkswagen Tire Wheel onto your computer tape drive! Channels or tracks on the tape... 31 Channels ?ALWAYS LOOKING? FOR MORE RELATED TO THIS COMPUTER!? See more info on this computer at: http://www.smecc.org/honeywell_datamatic_1000.htm drop me a note at? couryhouse at aol.com? From phil at regressive.org Wed Feb 23 00:27:08 2022 From: phil at regressive.org (phil at regressive.org) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 01:27:08 -0500 Subject: Speaking of tubes in computers.... 1st Honeywell 1000 computer used some surprise tubes! In-Reply-To: <200992555.752818.1645596147719@mail.yahoo.com> References: <200992555.752818.1645596147719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <200992555.752818.1645596147719@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6215d3bc.+1s7wO+c6vDhtm0g%phil@regressive.org> There's a mention of the Datamatic 1000 in Hugh Blair-Smith's "Left Brains for the Right Stuff" (on the development of the Apollo Guidance Computer software), and gives an account that the B&O D-1000 got flooded when a rooftop water tank burst, and hot tubes met cold water. Early work on the AGC was hosted on the D-1000 descendent, the Honeywell 800 series (replacing an IBM 650). Blair-Smith describes the H-800 as having eight execution contexts (sets of registers). From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Feb 23 00:42:50 2022 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 06:42:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Speaking of tubes in computers.... 1st Honeywell 1000 computer used some surprise tubes! In-Reply-To: <6215d3bc.+1s7wO+c6vDhtm0g%phil@regressive.org> References: <200992555.752818.1645596147719.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <200992555.752818.1645596147719@mail.yahoo.com> <6215d3bc.+1s7wO+c6vDhtm0g%phil@regressive.org> Message-ID: <752292897.763193.1645598570168@mail.yahoo.com> The H-800? was? pretty? modern compared? to the? 1000! I? marvel at? all of? them!?Ed# In a message dated 2/22/2022 11:27:10 PM US Mountain Standard Time, phil at regressive.org writes:? There's a mention of the Datamatic 1000 in Hugh Blair-Smith's "Left Brains for the Right Stuff" (on the development of the Apollo Guidance Computer software), and gives an account that the B&O D-1000 got flooded when a rooftop water tank burst, and hot tubes met cold water. Early work on the AGC was hosted on the D-1000 descendent, the Honeywell 800 series (replacing an IBM 650).? Blair-Smith describes the H-800 as having eight execution contexts (sets of registers).? From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 06:56:11 2022 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 20:56:11 +0800 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Hi Rod, The "*.dsk" format is just a file extension. What utility created the RX50 disk images? Tom On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 10:29 AM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi > > Well I have had a huge response to my request. > > I am unsure as to if I have defined the problem properly. > > So a few bullet points. > > 1. The objective is to copy RX50 disk images (*.dsk format) to genuine > DEC RX50 disks. > > 2. The PC I want to use is a DEC Celeibris FX ie the PC and its W95 > software is as supplied by DEC. > > 3. It has an RX33 5.25 inch floppy drive. > > 4. The RX33 _*is*_ capable of reading and writing RX50 disks. > > 5. putR was supposed to be able to do this. It does not. > > 6. All that is lacking is the right utility. > > 7. Doing this does not need any disks other than RX50's. > > 8. Linux in any of its myriad of forms is not the answer. > > 9. simH is good at what it does but of no use here > > 10. Its just a W95 utility program to copy an RX50 disk image to an > RX50 disk on an RX33 drive on a DEC PC. > > 11. So whats it called? Does it work given the above situation? > > Rod > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 23 08:50:05 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 09:50:05 -0500 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <9B52AC9A-3C53-4D71-BCF5-BD0B6BA8067C@comcast.net> I think you're unnecessarily limiting your options by refusing to use Linux, which as we've pointed out is something you can do on your existing PC without overwriting the OS that is on it now. As for SIMH, I am quite convinced that it IS a perfectly good answer. But sure, if you have all the floppies you need to do an actual install via floppy media, that's fine too. It does limit you somewhat; it means you have to use an OS for which RX50 was a supported kit type. For example, RSTS/E doesn't come that way, so if you want that, the SIMH route is your only option. And it would not be hard to do so long as you can find a PC interface for that SCSI drive. paul > On Feb 22, 2022, at 9:29 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > Hi > > Well I have had a huge response to my request. > > I am unsure as to if I have defined the problem properly. > > So a few bullet points. > > 1. The objective is to copy RX50 disk images (*.dsk format) to genuine DEC RX50 disks. > > 2. The PC I want to use is a DEC Celeibris FX ie the PC and its W95 software is as supplied by DEC. > > 3. It has an RX33 5.25 inch floppy drive. > > 4. The RX33 _*is*_ capable of reading and writing RX50 disks. > > 5. putR was supposed to be able to do this. It does not. > > 6. All that is lacking is the right utility. > > 7. Doing this does not need any disks other than RX50's. > > 8. Linux in any of its myriad of forms is not the answer. > > 9. simH is good at what it does but of no use here > > 10. Its just a W95 utility program to copy an RX50 disk image to an RX50 disk on an RX33 drive on a DEC PC. > > 11. So whats it called? Does it work given the above situation? > > Rod > > From js at cimmeri.com Wed Feb 23 10:52:41 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 11:52:41 -0500 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <62166659.6030603@cimmeri.com> On 2/22/2022 9:29 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi > Well I have had a huge response to > my request. > I am unsure as to if I have defined > the problem properly. Rod, you've defined the problem well enough. Have you read the PUTR manual thoroughly? As long as your hardware is OK, PUTR *should* do what you want. What is the sequence of PUTR command lines that you're trying? - John Singleton From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 11:38:45 2022 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:38:45 -0500 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 9:29 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > 2. The PC I want to use is a DEC Celeibris FX ie the PC and its W95 > software is as supplied by DEC. . . . > 5. putR was supposed to be able to do this. It does not. Rod, My memory is that programs like putr need to run on "real" DOS, not a DOS window. So if you are trying to run putr without booting to MS-DOS 6.2 or older, that could be the source of your problems with it. > 6. All that is lacking is the right utility. I think other utilities (Teledisk, ImageDisk, etc) _also_ require MS-DOS not a DOS window under Windows. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Feb 23 11:43:40 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:43:40 -0500 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <812BE316-0E7E-4702-839A-C521CBAF219F@comcast.net> > On Feb 23, 2022, at 12:38 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 9:29 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk > wrote: >> 2. The PC I want to use is a DEC Celeibris FX ie the PC and its W95 >> software is as supplied by DEC. > . > . > . >> 5. putR was supposed to be able to do this. It does not. > > Rod, > > My memory is that programs like putr need to run on "real" DOS, not a > DOS window. So if you are trying to run putr without booting to MS-DOS > 6.2 or older, that could be the source of your problems with it. I don't know PUTR, but my experience with DOS int13 code in RSTSFLX (built with DJGPP) is that it worked fine in a DOS window on Win95. And that makes sense, because Win95 is basically just a bit of UI veneer over DOS. Win NT is an entirely different thing, of course, and I would not expect DOS low level I/O to work in Win NT command windows since those really are not DOS. paul From js at cimmeri.com Wed Feb 23 11:41:26 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:41:26 -0500 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <621671C6.1070404@cimmeri.com> On 2/23/2022 12:38 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Rod, My memory is that programs like > putr need to run on "real" DOS, not a > DOS window. So if you are trying to > run putr without booting to MS-DOS 6.2 > or older, that could be the source of > your problems with it. He should be able to boot into Windows 95 DOS (prior to running Win95) and have that work ok. -js. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 23 12:04:04 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 10:04:04 -0800 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: <812BE316-0E7E-4702-839A-C521CBAF219F@comcast.net> References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> <812BE316-0E7E-4702-839A-C521CBAF219F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2/23/22 09:43, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I don't know PUTR, but my experience with DOS int13 code in RSTSFLX (built with DJGPP) is that it worked fine in a DOS window on Win95. And that makes sense, because Win95 is basically just a bit of UI veneer over DOS. Win NT is an entirely different thing, of course, and I would not expect DOS low level I/O to work in Win NT command windows since those really are not DOS. Maybe for Win95, but Win98 and later uses its own 32-bit port drivers (I'm not certain about 95 OSR2). If running 98 or 95, just do a "shutdown to MS-DOS prompt", rather than opening a DOS Window and you'll be fine. --Chuck From Rice43 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 23 12:16:20 2022 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:16:20 +0000 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> <812BE316-0E7E-4702-839A-C521CBAF219F@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Feb 23, 2022, at 6:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > If running 98 or 95, just do a "shutdown to MS-DOS prompt", rather than > opening a DOS Window and you'll be fine. > > --Chuck > I?ve written RX50?s to generic PC SSDD disks using a DOS window in 98SE. As long as you?re running 9x, PUTR should work as intended. I highly suspect the issue lies with either the floppy controller, or the floppy drive itself. It would be worth inspecting the floppy drive to make sure lint or other detritus isn?t blocking the write protect mechanism. I had similar issues with the RX50 in my 11/23 Josh Rice. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Feb 23 17:12:52 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 18:12:52 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM 848-02 Message-ID: Does anyone have anything on the jumper settings for this drive? I would like to jumper it so it can read DEC RX01/RX02 floppies. I am looking at being able to read disks on a non-DEC systems but I would also like to be able to use it on my Andromeda card in a real PDP-11. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 23 17:14:38 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 15:14:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> Message-ID: To test the false "Write-protect" error, try: Put a BLANK floppy in the drive, and ask Windoze to FORMAT it. For simplicity, choose the "360K" or "720K" format. See what if any errors that generates. If no errors (or certain specific other ones), then we can assume that the problem is not with the drive. If it gives a "write protect" error, even with Windoze FORMAT, then the hardware seems to be seeing a hardware write protect. Besides the obvious possibility of a defective write protect switch, or a cable mismatch, one of the MANY unlikely other possibilities, . . . I have seen and used floppy drives that were jumpered to reverse the write-protect sense. Try it again WITH a write protect tab on the disk. That would confirm THAT particular issue. Also, put a disk into the drive, and try a simple READ, such as looking at DIRectory. Assume that you will get errors, but WHICH ONES? I can understand your refusal to use Linux. But, are you willing to reboot to MS-DOS? If not, at least try FORMAT in a DOS CMD window. Disk I/O error messages in DOS are more meaningful than the over-simplified messages that Windoze gives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Wed, 23 Feb 2022, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > ?? Well I have had a huge response to my request. > > I am unsure as to if I have defined the problem properly. > > So a few bullet points. > > 1. The objective is to copy RX50 disk images (*.dsk format) to genuine DEC > RX50 disks. > > 2. The PC I want to use is a DEC Celeibris FX ie the PC and its W95 software > is as supplied by DEC. > > 3. It has an RX33 5.25 inch floppy drive. > > 4. The RX33 _*is*_ capable of? reading and writing RX50 disks. > > 5.? putR was supposed to be able to do this. It does not. > > 6.? All that is lacking is the right utility. > > 7. Doing this does not need any disks other than RX50's. > > 8. Linux in any of its myriad of forms is not the answer. > > 9. simH is good at what it does but of no use here > > 10.? Its just a W95 utility program to copy an RX50 disk image to an RX50 > disk on an RX33 drive on a DEC PC. > > 11. So whats it called? Does it work? given the above situation? > > Rod From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Feb 23 19:25:08 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 20:25:08 -0500 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection In-Reply-To: <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> References: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <8a393980-8ea7-71e7-b86f-f037095d6f48@alembic.crystel.com> Pretty much. I took apart my VT52 about 2 years ago because it wasn't happy. Turned out the +5 and +15 volt supplies were good but the -15 was bad. After fiddling around with capacitors and transistors I took the easy way out and just put in a 7815 regulator, bypassing the old -15 volt system. Secured it to the heat sink and the display works perfectly now. For something like that replacing old technology with new is OK by me... C On 2/21/2022 1:36 AM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > >> On Feb 20, 2022, at 10:27 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >> I?ve begun some work on a VT52 ... is there a way to detach the HV anode lead at the board side (does the white ?cap? come off the lead connector?) > > Well, just answered my own question ? went back and tried to be a little more assertive, and yes, the white cap is in fact just a pressure fit on the black anode connector at the board. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 23 19:45:39 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 17:45:39 -0800 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection In-Reply-To: <8a393980-8ea7-71e7-b86f-f037095d6f48@alembic.crystel.com> References: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> <8a393980-8ea7-71e7-b86f-f037095d6f48@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 2/23/22 17:25, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Pretty much. I took apart my VT52 about 2 years ago because it wasn't > happy. Turned out the +5 and +15 volt supplies were good but the -15 was > bad. > > After fiddling around with capacitors and transistors I took the easy > way out and just put in a 7815 regulator, bypassing the old -15 volt > system. Secured it to the heat sink and the display works perfectly now. > Nice job, but isn't the 7915 the negative regulator? --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Feb 23 19:55:51 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0500 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection In-Reply-To: References: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> <8a393980-8ea7-71e7-b86f-f037095d6f48@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <348161fe-7b11-fe9c-05e9-6c0281974ec0@alembic.crystel.com> > Nice job, but isn't the 7915 the negative regulator? Whoops :-) > > --Chuck > From doug at doughq.com Wed Feb 23 20:17:33 2022 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:17:33 +1100 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection In-Reply-To: <348161fe-7b11-fe9c-05e9-6c0281974ec0@alembic.crystel.com> References: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> <8a393980-8ea7-71e7-b86f-f037095d6f48@alembic.crystel.com> <348161fe-7b11-fe9c-05e9-6c0281974ec0@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Hmm - Depends on where that pesky ground connection is put :-) (Duck) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 at 12:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Nice job, but isn't the 7915 the negative regulator? > > Whoops :-) > > > > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 23 23:04:55 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 21:04:55 -0800 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection In-Reply-To: References: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> <8a393980-8ea7-71e7-b86f-f037095d6f48@alembic.crystel.com> <348161fe-7b11-fe9c-05e9-6c0281974ec0@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7206525d-e078-719f-6d7c-4b54152de232@sydex.com> On 2/23/22 18:17, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Hmm - Depends on where that pesky ground connection is put :-) (Duck) Well, if you stand on your head whilst soldering it in, it's all good! :) From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Feb 23 23:16:37 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 22:16:37 -0700 Subject: DEC VT52 CRT anode connection In-Reply-To: <7206525d-e078-719f-6d7c-4b54152de232@sydex.com> References: <80ED86F4-5D08-4599-9C74-BC0A12B278EB@fritzm.org> <5F3B8DDA-3A81-4238-9BF4-F440149CE800@fritzm.org> <8a393980-8ea7-71e7-b86f-f037095d6f48@alembic.crystel.com> <348161fe-7b11-fe9c-05e9-6c0281974ec0@alembic.crystel.com> <7206525d-e078-719f-6d7c-4b54152de232@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 10:05 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 2/23/22 18:17, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > Hmm - Depends on where that pesky ground connection is put :-) (Duck) > > Well, if you stand on your head whilst soldering it in, it's all good! :) > True, but also helps if it doesn't get hot enough to need a heat sync :). Warner > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 00:09:31 2022 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 01:09:31 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM 848-02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: P 1-17 of the Service Manual m On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 6:13 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Does anyone have anything on the jumper settings for this drive? > I would like to jumper it so it can read DEC RX01/RX02 floppies. > I am looking at being able to read disks on a non-DEC systems > but I would also like to be able to use it on my Andromeda card > in a real PDP-11. > > bill > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 24 02:04:43 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 08:04:43 +0000 Subject: 11/83 OS load - problem solved. Message-ID: <3d59f8d7-57f2-1c98-6110-6ca67248b61f@btinternet.com> Hi ???? Well I now have a full set of DEC orignal MicroRSX RX50 distribution disks. An old friend who I worked with at DEC had kept his install go bag and there they where. Not only that they are good and do boot. Its not over, RT-11 would be a better fit so I'm looking at that. Rod From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Feb 24 02:33:47 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 08:33:47 -0000 Subject: 11/83 OS load - problem solved. In-Reply-To: <3d59f8d7-57f2-1c98-6110-6ca67248b61f@btinternet.com> References: <3d59f8d7-57f2-1c98-6110-6ca67248b61f@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00b901d82959$3e051be0$ba0f53a0$@ntlworld.com> If images don't exist would it be possible to image them and get them on BitSavers? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > via cctalk > Sent: 24 February 2022 08:05 > To: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > Subject: 11/83 OS load - problem solved. > > Hi > > Well I now have a full set of DEC orignal MicroRSX RX50 distribution disks. > > An old friend who I worked with at DEC had kept his install go bag and there > they where. Not only that they are good and do boot. > > Its not over, RT-11 would be a better fit so I'm looking at that. > > Rod From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 02:35:39 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 09:35:39 +0100 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: <9B52AC9A-3C53-4D71-BCF5-BD0B6BA8067C@comcast.net> References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> <9B52AC9A-3C53-4D71-BCF5-BD0B6BA8067C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 15:50, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I think you're unnecessarily limiting your options by refusing to use Linux, which as we've pointed out is something you can do on your existing PC without overwriting the OS that is on it now. I agree. The same thought crossed my mind, in fact. A small distro such as Slax ? https://www.slax.org/ ? would fit onto a single CD-ROM, boot and run entirely from that disk and does not need to touch the hard disk. If the machine has a DVD-ROM, then a larger distro such as PC Linux OS will do the job too. No installation needed. https://www.pclinuxos.com/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 02:37:59 2022 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 09:37:59 +0100 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> <812BE316-0E7E-4702-839A-C521CBAF219F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 19:04, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Maybe for Win95, but Win98 and later uses its own 32-bit port drivers > (I'm not certain about 95 OSR2). 98 and 98SE are still loaded from DOS and you can shut down and exit to DOS again too, if you know how. There's no functional difference. > If running 98 or 95, just do a "shutdown to MS-DOS prompt", rather than > opening a DOS Window and you'll be fine. I don't think 98 has that option. I know WinME does not. I would recommend booting to DOS (pressing F5 at startup should be enough). -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 24 04:13:58 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:13:58 +0000 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> <9B52AC9A-3C53-4D71-BCF5-BD0B6BA8067C@comcast.net> Message-ID: I already have a Linux system (Ubuntu v20) the problem is I have no hardware that would run Linux and has a floppy controller. However thats no longer a problem as I have obtained a full original MicroRSX distribution on RX50. But thats not the end of the story.? RT-11 is next R On 24/02/2022 08:35, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 15:50, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> I think you're unnecessarily limiting your options by refusing to use Linux, which as we've pointed out is something you can do on your existing PC without overwriting the OS that is on it now. > I agree. The same thought crossed my mind, in fact. > > A small distro such as Slax ? https://www.slax.org/ ? would fit onto a > single CD-ROM, boot and run entirely from that disk and does not need > to touch the hard disk. > > If the machine has a DVD-ROM, then a larger distro such as PC Linux OS > will do the job too. No installation needed. > > https://www.pclinuxos.com/ > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Feb 24 05:19:03 2022 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 06:19:03 -0500 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> <9B52AC9A-3C53-4D71-BCF5-BD0B6BA8067C@comcast.net> Message-ID: What version of MicroRSX? Remember RT11 has a limit of 33mb disk partitions, might want to just get 30mb MFM drives and run it off the RQDX3 C On 2/24/2022 5:13 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > I already have a Linux system (Ubuntu v20) the problem is > > I have no hardware that would run Linux and has a floppy controller. > > However thats no longer a problem as I have obtained a full original > MicroRSX distribution on RX50. > > But thats not the end of the story.? RT-11 is next > > R > > > On 24/02/2022 08:35, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 15:50, Paul Koning via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I think you're unnecessarily limiting your options by refusing to use >>> Linux, which as we've pointed out is something you can do on your >>> existing PC without overwriting the OS that is on it now. >> I agree. The same thought crossed my mind, in fact. >> >> A small distro such as Slax ? https://www.slax.org/ ? would fit onto a >> single CD-ROM, boot and run entirely from that disk and does not need >> to touch the hard disk. >> >> If the machine has a DVD-ROM, then a larger distro such as PC Linux OS >> will do the job too. No installation needed. >> >> https://www.pclinuxos.com/ >> From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 24 06:04:37 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:04:37 +0000 Subject: 11/83 operating system load update -2 In-Reply-To: References: <46dfc1ac-09f0-c821-041b-feddaa240e45@btinternet.com> <9B52AC9A-3C53-4D71-BCF5-BD0B6BA8067C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <039b2324-6a81-5959-126f-ed515ce57e0b@btinternet.com> MicroRSX V1 Partitions - YIK - DU.SYS gets you 8 . SYSGEN more. I have no MFM drives and loads of SCSI. How much of a drive gets used - IDC R On 24/02/2022 11:19, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > What version of MicroRSX? > > Remember RT11 has a limit of 33mb disk partitions, might want to just > get 30mb MFM drives and run it off the RQDX3 > > C > > On 2/24/2022 5:13 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >> I already have a Linux system (Ubuntu v20) the problem is >> >> I have no hardware that would run Linux and has a floppy controller. >> >> However thats no longer a problem as I have obtained a full original >> MicroRSX distribution on RX50. >> >> But thats not the end of the story.? RT-11 is next >> >> R >> >> >> On 24/02/2022 08:35, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 15:50, Paul Koning via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> I think you're unnecessarily limiting your options by refusing to >>>> use Linux, which as we've pointed out is something you can do on >>>> your existing PC without overwriting the OS that is on it now. >>> I agree. The same thought crossed my mind, in fact. >>> >>> A small distro such as Slax ? https://www.slax.org/ ? would fit onto a >>> single CD-ROM, boot and run entirely from that disk and does not need >>> to touch the hard disk. >>> >>> If the machine has a DVD-ROM, then a larger distro such as PC Linux OS >>> will do the job too. No installation needed. >>> >>> https://www.pclinuxos.com/ >>> From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 24 06:21:24 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 07:21:24 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM 848-02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/24/22 01:09, Mike Stein wrote: > P 1-17 of the Service Manual > What manual? I understand the one on bitsavers is for the 848 and not the 848-02 which has a completely different logic board. Have I been misinformed? bill From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 06:51:08 2022 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:51:08 +0000 Subject: Tandon TM 848-02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 24 Feb 2022, at 12:21, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/24/22 01:09, Mike Stein wrote: >> P 1-17 of the Service Manual > > What manual? I understand the one on bitsavers is for the > 848 and not the 848-02 which has a completely different logic > board. Have I been misinformed? This is the one I have, it covers both -1 and -2 since they're the same board, only the number of heads is different. https://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/TandonTM848ServiceGuide.pdf Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Feb 24 06:54:44 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 07:54:44 -0500 Subject: Tandon TM 848-02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/24/22 07:51, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 24 Feb 2022, at 12:21, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2/24/22 01:09, Mike Stein wrote: >>> P 1-17 of the Service Manual >> >> What manual? I understand the one on bitsavers is for the >> 848 and not the 848-02 which has a completely different logic >> board. Have I been misinformed? > > > This is the one I have, it covers both -1 and -2 since they're the same board, only the number of heads is different. > > https://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/TandonTM848ServiceGuide.pdf > Thank you I grabbed it. Should be a big help. bill From fedorkow at mit.edu Thu Feb 24 08:36:29 2022 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 09:36:29 -0500 Subject: Seeking paper tape punch Message-ID: <6b30e6f1-ac58-88ea-87f5-c13138ccccca@mit.edu> hi Steve, ? There's lots of raw material out there.? Al Kossow read hundreds of tapes a couple years ago, and posted the images at http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/ ? Whirlwind and modern readers disagree on what order the bits come in, but other than that, the files are perfectly usable.? We have some of the programs running in simulation, as you've seen. ? The Whirlwind tapes in the archive are all seven-level tapes punched on 7/8" paper. ? Let me know if there's something I can help with /guy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:24:18 +1000 From:steven at malikoff.com To: "ben", "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Seeking paper tape punch Message-ID: <78ae9afacbca8b3ca7e7a41c677659d0.squirrel at webmail04.register.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Ben said > This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I > would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock > is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his > computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high > tech. Consumer-grade CNC stencil cutters are fine at cutting plastic sheet and should be ok with film stock. My ptap2dxf (latest version 1.3) will produce output to cut tapes for 8-level ASCII, 5-level Baudot, 2-level Morse (Wheatstone and Cable Code), 7-level Whirlwind, Teletype Chadless and some customising options too. Still some other formats to do such as Colossus etc. Thanks for the notion of making Zuse tape, will look into it. Steve. From clemarjr at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 10:29:57 2022 From: clemarjr at gmail.com (Clemar Folly) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:29:57 -0300 Subject: Information about an unknown IC Message-ID: Hi I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? Thanks. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 24 11:10:47 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:10:47 -0700 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6fb7afc6-4d7a-f4b2-53f7-ee1ff475c340@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2022-02-24 9:29 a.m., Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. > > Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? > > Thanks. What is the native habitat of this chip? Mother board, I/O, calculator or clock,washing machine, toaster, car? Ben. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 11:54:24 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:54:24 -0500 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: <6fb7afc6-4d7a-f4b2-53f7-ee1ff475c340@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6fb7afc6-4d7a-f4b2-53f7-ee1ff475c340@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: is there a date code? On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:10 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-02-24 9:29 a.m., Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: > > Hi > > > > I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. > > > > Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? > > > > Thanks. > > What is the native habitat of this chip? Mother board, I/O, calculator > or clock,washing machine, toaster, car? > Ben. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 24 12:01:03 2022 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 11:01:03 -0700 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49b1fc88-3112-ea72-b0cd-d7685ca4b109@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2022-02-24 9:29 a.m., Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. > > Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? > > Thanks. I forgot to ask, What kind of package? Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 24 12:06:12 2022 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:06:12 -0800 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: <6fb7afc6-4d7a-f4b2-53f7-ee1ff475c340@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8f47a579-4667-f2d7-20f4-d0a7b57e36fe@sydex.com> >> On 2022-02-24 9:29 a.m., Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. >>> >>> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? >>> >>> Thanks. >> >> What is the native habitat of this chip? Mother board, I/O, calculator >> or clock,washing machine, toaster, car? >> Ben. >> Sounds like a house number to me. Can you post a photo? --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:08:57 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:08:57 -0500 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: <6fb7afc6-4d7a-f4b2-53f7-ee1ff475c340@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I checked my 70's era IC books for TI. There is no TB-759933 that I can find. Bill On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:54 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > is there a date code? > > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:10 PM ben via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 2022-02-24 9:29 a.m., Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: >> > Hi >> > >> > I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. >> > >> > Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? >> > >> > Thanks. >> >> What is the native habitat of this chip? Mother board, I/O, calculator >> or clock,washing machine, toaster, car? >> Ben. >> > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Feb 24 12:16:10 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:16:10 -0800 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: > > I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. > > Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ It looks like a home-made board for a plug-in ROM expansion for we-are-not-told. The "TB 759933" is 14-pin DIP, dated coded 7226, has a house number of "239 2100", but it's on a board with a 27256 from 1985. It looks like somebody hacked up this board with on-hand parts. 60 seconds of reverse-enginerring from the limited view in the picture suggests it's likely involved in the address decoding to select the on-board EPROM. The 759933 interconnects with a 74LS10. The LS10 appears to have connections to the chip-select and output-enable of the 27256 EPROM. TB 759933 is not a standard TI number but TI sometimes identified parts they were second-sourcing by embedding the original number in an expanded number. So a guess is this is a 933 DTL dual 4-input (AND function) expander, being used not-strictly-correctly to drive a TTL input. The 933 should be basically 2*4 diodes. A complete reverse-engineering of this trivial board would likely explain the overall intended function. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Feb 24 12:16:51 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:16:51 -0800 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: <49b1fc88-3112-ea72-b0cd-d7685ca4b109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49b1fc88-3112-ea72-b0cd-d7685ca4b109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Could be speaking ahead of answers here, but TI had an entire internal PN system for their parts in the 70s (I dealt with it in 75) and they did it to stop people from doing component level repairs on such as TI silent 700s.? I don't think there's a common P/N part in those. I couldn't get the internal to "real public" part number equivalency list and I was just a wet behind the ears EE trying to maintain 40 of them for a college, and quite pissed off that they did that. Some were figured out but most weren't. They wanted upwards of the value of the units for parts, and were aholes in my book.? The Silent 700s weren't the only thing they pulled that on. So if you have a schematic and what it came out of someone here or on a circuits or specialized list which deals with TI shenanigans might be able to guess what it is and what would replace it. May not be this, someone may have a book with it in it, but I avoid TI at all costs for this reason. Enough problems with old electronics w/o dealing with crap like this. thanks Jim On 2/24/2022 10:01 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-02-24 9:29 a.m., Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: >> Hi >> >> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. >> >> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? >> >> Thanks. > I forgot to ask, What kind of package? > Ben. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Feb 24 12:20:46 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:20:46 -0500 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Feb 24, 2022, at 1:16 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. >> >> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? > > > A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: > https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ Wow, that's a sorry looking board. It looks like it was assembled by someone using a soldering gun and acid-core solder. But most plumbers would do better work than that. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:24:00 2022 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:24:00 -0500 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a pretty complete set of TI books, there are no chips that begin with TB-nnnnn. There are many chips that start with T, but none that match your chip ID On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 1:21 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Feb 24, 2022, at 1:16 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. > >> > >> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? > > > > > > A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: > > > https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ > > Wow, that's a sorry looking board. It looks like it was assembled by > someone using a soldering gun and acid-core solder. But most plumbers > would do better work than that. > > paul > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Feb 24 12:44:41 2022 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 10:44:41 -0800 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <085c6bd9-4e90-ddde-81ec-01244cb5c4cb@jwsss.com> The thread with the photograph had an Ebay source for the part. https://www.ebay.com/itm/151010204380 doesn't help with function, or with the solder blob jumper purpose (or booboo) but can get the part for some amount if they ship to Brazil. On 2/24/2022 10:24 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have a pretty complete set of TI books, there are no chips that begin > with TB-nnnnn. There are many chips that start with T, but none that match > your chip ID > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 1:21 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >>> On Feb 24, 2022, at 1:16 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: >>>> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. >>>> >>>> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? >>> >>> A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: >>> >> https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ >> >> Wow, that's a sorry looking board. It looks like it was assembled by >> someone using a soldering gun and acid-core solder. But most plumbers >> would do better work than that. >> >> paul >> >> >> From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:32:16 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:32:16 -0400 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2392100 Look like an IBM house number for a 7400 quad NAND Paul. On 2022-02-24 14:16, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: >> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. >> >> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? > > A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: > https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ > > It looks like a home-made board for a plug-in ROM expansion for we-are-not-told. > The "TB 759933" is 14-pin DIP, dated coded 7226, has a house number of "239 2100", but it's on a board with a 27256 from 1985. > It looks like somebody hacked up this board with on-hand parts. > > 60 seconds of reverse-enginerring from the limited view in the picture suggests it's likely involved in the address decoding to select the on-board EPROM. The 759933 interconnects with a 74LS10. The LS10 appears to have connections to the chip-select and output-enable of the 27256 EPROM. > > TB 759933 is not a standard TI number but TI sometimes identified parts they were second-sourcing by embedding the original number in an expanded number. > > So a guess is this is a 933 DTL dual 4-input (AND function) expander, being used not-strictly-correctly to drive a TTL input. > > The 933 should be basically 2*4 diodes. > > A complete reverse-engineering of this trivial board would likely explain the overall intended function. > From clemarjr at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:44:27 2022 From: clemarjr at gmail.com (Clemar Folly) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 16:44:27 -0300 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: <085c6bd9-4e90-ddde-81ec-01244cb5c4cb@jwsss.com> References: <085c6bd9-4e90-ddde-81ec-01244cb5c4cb@jwsss.com> Message-ID: This chip is from a cartridge for the Atari 2600. The board is not mine. I'm trying to help identify the IC. It's the PCB of the AtariAge post. I had already looked in the Texas data book and found nothing. Thanks. On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 3:44 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The thread with the photograph had an Ebay source for the part. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/151010204380 > > doesn't help with function, or with the solder blob jumper purpose (or > booboo) but can get the part for some amount if they ship to Brazil. > > > On 2/24/2022 10:24 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I have a pretty complete set of TI books, there are no chips that begin > > with TB-nnnnn. There are many chips that start with T, but none that > match > > your chip ID > > > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 1:21 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > >>> On Feb 24, 2022, at 1:16 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: > >>>> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. > >>>> > >>>> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? > >>> > >>> A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: > >>> > >> > https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ > >> > >> Wow, that's a sorry looking board. It looks like it was assembled by > >> someone using a soldering gun and acid-core solder. But most plumbers > >> would do better work than that. > >> > >> paul > >> > >> > >> > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Feb 24 13:51:25 2022 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 11:51:25 -0800 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2022-Feb-24, at 11:32 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > On 2022-02-24 14:16, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. >>> >>> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this IC? >> >> A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: >> https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ >> >> It looks like a home-made board for a plug-in ROM expansion for we-are-not-told. >> The "TB 759933" is 14-pin DIP, dated coded 7226, has a house number of "239 2100", but it's on a board with a 27256 from 1985. >> It looks like somebody hacked up this board with on-hand parts. >> >> 60 seconds of reverse-enginerring from the limited view in the picture suggests it's likely involved in the address decoding to select the on-board EPROM. The 759933 interconnects with a 74LS10. The LS10 appears to have connections to the chip-select and output-enable of the 27256 EPROM. >> >> TB 759933 is not a standard TI number but TI sometimes identified parts they were second-sourcing by embedding the original number in an expanded number. >> >> So a guess is this is a 933 DTL dual 4-input (AND function) expander, being used not-strictly-correctly to drive a TTL input. >> >> The 933 should be basically 2*4 diodes. >> >> A complete reverse-engineering of this trivial board would likely explain the overall intended function. > 2392100 Look like an IBM house number for a 7400 quad NAND > > Paul. Glad you said that, I wondered whether that might be IBM, but I'm not very familiar with their numbers and don't have a xref. 7400 makes some sense with the board: pins 1&2 and 4&5 are blobbed together, i.e. acting as inverters; and the interconnections with the LS10 as far as can be seen appear to then make sense as outputs-inputs. From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Feb 24 13:55:04 2022 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 12:55:04 -0700 Subject: Information about an unknown IC In-Reply-To: References: <085c6bd9-4e90-ddde-81ec-01244cb5c4cb@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 12:47 PM Clemar Folly via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This chip is from a cartridge for the Atari 2600. The board is not mine. > I'm trying to help identify the IC. > > It's the PCB of the AtariAge post. > > I had already looked in the Texas data book and found nothing. > Then it is almost certainly a custom ROM of some flavor Warner Thanks. > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 3:44 PM jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The thread with the photograph had an Ebay source for the part. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/151010204380 > > > > doesn't help with function, or with the solder blob jumper purpose (or > > booboo) but can get the part for some amount if they ship to Brazil. > > > > > > On 2/24/2022 10:24 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a pretty complete set of TI books, there are no chips that begin > > > with TB-nnnnn. There are many chips that start with T, but none that > > match > > > your chip ID > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 1:21 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >>> On Feb 24, 2022, at 1:16 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >>> On 2022-Feb-24, at 8:29 AM, Clemar Folly via cctalk wrote: > > >>>> I'm looking for information about Texas Instruments TB-759933 IC. > > >>>> > > >>>> Does anyone have the datasheet or any other information about this > IC? > > >>> > > >>> A search shows this question was posted over here, with a picture: > > >>> > > >> > > > https://atariage.com/forums/topic/331769-unknown-cart-ic-please-i-need-some-help/ > > >> > > >> Wow, that's a sorry looking board. It looks like it was assembled by > > >> someone using a soldering gun and acid-core solder. But most plumbers > > >> would do better work than that. > > >> > > >> paul > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 24 22:24:56 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 23:24:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220225042456.8037F18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> First, a minor correction: > the M8264 Sack Timeout module ... there's next to nothing in print > about them There is also some coverage in EK-KD11E-TM-001, at: Section 4.7.2.4 "M8264 NO-SACK Timeout Module" (pg. 4-41, pg. 87 of the PDF), which I found while looking for parity stuff (below). > From: Fritz Mueller > The KD11-E is pretty bare boned... Parity handling was also a quad "add on". ??? The KD11-E/EA doesn't do much with parity (below), so at first I thought that maybe you were thinking of the M7850 Parity Controller (which is actually a memory option, not KD11-E/EA specific; more below), but that's a dual card. The KD11-E/EA does not (like most PDP-11's) calculate parity; PDP-11 memory units do all the work, and signal 'parity error detected' to the CPU over the UNIBUS (using the PB line); the CPU will trap when it sees that (if enabled; the KD11-E and -EA can disable recognition of parity errors, with jumpers). See Section 4.7.2.7, "Parity Errors", in EK-KD11E-TM-001 (at pg. 4-45, pg. 91 of the PDF); the circuit diagram is on page K2-1 of the KD11-E/EA FMPS. The M7850 has to be in the same backplane as the memory, but that can be a different backplane from the one holding the CPU. So it can be 15' away, at the other end of a UNIBUS cable. Anyway, can you say more about the parity add-on? >> So if i) a device requests a grant, and then drops the request at >> _just_ the right time ... and ii) there's a break in that grant line >> ... before it gets to the M9302, which can turn it around as a SACK , >> then ... the KD11-E CPU will hang! > I believe a broken grant chain with an M9302 in place on the far side > results in the grant being pulled up at the M9302, and then continuous > assertion of SACK, hanging the processor straight out the gate. Oh, right you are! (I'm glad _your_ brain is runed on - unlike mine! :-) I happen to have an -11/04 (the -11/34's sibling) on the bench in my work room, with one of Guy's very useful UA11's plugged into it. (BTW, the UA11: http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html is fantastically useful as a UNIBUS debugging tool. Everyone working on UNIBUS machines should have one.) So I thought I'd go try an experiment. It turned out to be a bit more complicated than I thought, but you're basically right: a break in the grant lines (e.g. missing grant continuity card) causes the downstream card to 'see' 'phantom' incoming grants (open TTL inputs float high), and signal a grant on from there; and if there's an M9302 at the end of the bus, it will see that and jam SACK on. The complication was that when I powered the machine on, it turned out that something was asserting SACK when the machine was halted; if I put it into a 'BR .' loop, that goes away. I looked, and the KD11-D doesn't even _have_ a SACK driver! So I tried un-plugging the KY11-LB, and the 'SACK on halt' went away. (That machine has core, and I set the power-on vector to halt the machine.) Looking at the KY11-LB manual, it does in fact assert SACK (after it has sent the KD11 a 'halt request, and receives a 'halt acknowledge'), to recognize the CPU's acknowledgement of the halt request. (I have yet to check and see if the KY11-LB asserts SACK if the CPU halts on its own accord - probably 'yes', but that's a project for tomorrow.) The thing that's puzzling me is that the M8264 seems to exactly replicate the functionality of the M9302, with an 'unused' bus grant being turned into a SACK. So I don't understand the point of the M8264. Whether the cause of the grant is a rare timing window of a bus request being cancelled, or a broken grant line; with an M9302 in the system, a SACK will result. The only difference between the two is that because of the way grant lines are wired, the M8264 will not respond to a broken grant line 'downstream' of the M8264. The M8264 does add this capability to a system using an M930 terminator - but just switching to an M902 would be simpler. And the M9302 pre-dates the M8264, as we can see from EK-11034-OP-PRE2. So I'm really quite confused as to what the point of the M8264 was. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Feb 25 01:00:46 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 23:00:46 -0800 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <20220225042456.8037F18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220225042456.8037F18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4BE0D7E1-CF27-423E-9211-770B3CD2441F@fritzm.org> > On Feb 24, 2022, at 8:24 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > ? at first I thought that maybe you were thinking of the M7850 Parity Controller (which is > actually a memory option, not KD11-E/EA specific; more below), but that's a > dual card. Yes, I was thinking of the M7850, but I had forgotten this was just a dual card! I think I had come to think of it as a CPU option because at some point during the /34 restoration that I did last year I got to the place of ?oh, I needn?t bother trying to running the parity MAINDECs because I don?t have an M7850?, which felt sort of like ?I needn?t bother trying to run floating point MAINDECs because I don?t have floating point...? So alas, nothing exotic for you here, Noel -- just some sloppy thinking on my part :-) > The complication was that when I powered the machine on, it turned out that > something was asserting SACK when the machine was halted; if I put it into a > 'BR .' loop, that goes away. That is quite interesting, and not what I would have expected! > Looking at the KY11-LB manual, it does in fact assert SACK (after it has sent > the KD11 a 'halt request, and receives a 'halt acknowledge'), to recognize > the CPU's acknowledgement of the halt request. I ran into this when I started using one of Jeorg?s ?Unibone? cards with my /34. When the Unibone is in place and jumped to take grants, those grant chains are open at power up until the Unibone?s own control software can boot. So after power on my machine (w/ KY11-LB) would be jammed and inoperable from the front panel until the Unibone was booted. > The thing that's puzzling me is that the M8264 seems to exactly replicate the > functionality of the M9302, with an 'unused' bus grant being turned into a > SACK. So I don't understand the point of the M8264. I think the only difference would be that since the M8264 is timer based, it doesn?t need the intact end-to-end path required for turnaround. So your bus won?t lock even if you have a broken grant chain or a poorly behaved or hung device eating grants. I think my /45 has this built-in (will check later). I would *guess* that the M9302 was just a ?poor man?s SACK timeout?, and the 8264 was offered later to shore that up to a real timeout for applications where it mattered? cheers! ?FritzM. From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 01:28:57 2022 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:28:57 +0100 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <20220225042456.8037F18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220225042456.8037F18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: What about the M9300 board? Do you have an idea what the purpose is of that card? It look a bit like a M9302 but with more logic on it and a few jumpers and a LED. It also have a delay line and a monostable flip-flop. Here is a photo of a (dusty) M9300: http://forum.datormuseum.se/data/B21AEA95-02C2-402B-BC97-06790BAEDC88/84B52290-D267-46C8-8B65-1A3EFEF7916B.jpg /Mattis fredag 25 februari 2022 skrev Noel Chiappa via cctalk : > First, a minor correction: > > > the M8264 Sack Timeout module ... there's next to nothing in print > > about them > > There is also some coverage in EK-KD11E-TM-001, at: Section 4.7.2.4 "M8264 > NO-SACK Timeout Module" (pg. 4-41, pg. 87 of the PDF), which I found while > looking for parity stuff (below). > > > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > The KD11-E is pretty bare boned... Parity handling was also a quad > "add on". > > ??? The KD11-E/EA doesn't do much with parity (below), so at first I > thought > that maybe you were thinking of the M7850 Parity Controller (which is > actually a memory option, not KD11-E/EA specific; more below), but that's a > dual card. > > The KD11-E/EA does not (like most PDP-11's) calculate parity; PDP-11 memory > units do all the work, and signal 'parity error detected' to the CPU over > the > UNIBUS (using the PB line); the CPU will trap when it sees that (if > enabled; > the KD11-E and -EA can disable recognition of parity errors, with jumpers). > > See Section 4.7.2.7, "Parity Errors", in EK-KD11E-TM-001 (at pg. 4-45, pg. > 91 > of the PDF); the circuit diagram is on page K2-1 of the KD11-E/EA FMPS. > > The M7850 has to be in the same backplane as the memory, but that can be a > different backplane from the one holding the CPU. So it can be 15' away, at > the other end of a UNIBUS cable. > > Anyway, can you say more about the parity add-on? > > > >> So if i) a device requests a grant, and then drops the request at > >> _just_ the right time ... and ii) there's a break in that grant line > >> ... before it gets to the M9302, which can turn it around as a SACK > , > >> then ... the KD11-E CPU will hang! > > > I believe a broken grant chain with an M9302 in place on the far side > > results in the grant being pulled up at the M9302, and then > continuous > > assertion of SACK, hanging the processor straight out the gate. > > Oh, right you are! (I'm glad _your_ brain is runed on - unlike mine! :-) > > I happen to have an -11/04 (the -11/34's sibling) on the bench in my work > room, with one of Guy's very useful UA11's plugged into it. (BTW, the UA11: > > http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html > > is fantastically useful as a UNIBUS debugging tool. Everyone working on > UNIBUS machines should have one.) So I thought I'd go try an experiment. > > > It turned out to be a bit more complicated than I thought, but you're > basically right: a break in the grant lines (e.g. missing grant continuity > card) causes the downstream card to 'see' 'phantom' incoming grants (open > TTL > inputs float high), and signal a grant on from there; and if there's an > M9302 > at the end of the bus, it will see that and jam SACK on. > > The complication was that when I powered the machine on, it turned out that > something was asserting SACK when the machine was halted; if I put it into > a > 'BR .' loop, that goes away. I looked, and the KD11-D doesn't even _have_ a > SACK driver! So I tried un-plugging the KY11-LB, and the 'SACK on halt' > went > away. (That machine has core, and I set the power-on vector to halt the > machine.) > > Looking at the KY11-LB manual, it does in fact assert SACK (after it has > sent > the KD11 a 'halt request, and receives a 'halt acknowledge'), to recognize > the CPU's acknowledgement of the halt request. (I have yet to check and > see if > the KY11-LB asserts SACK if the CPU halts on its own accord - probably > 'yes', > but that's a project for tomorrow.) > > > The thing that's puzzling me is that the M8264 seems to exactly replicate > the > functionality of the M9302, with an 'unused' bus grant being turned into a > SACK. So I don't understand the point of the M8264. Whether the cause of > the > grant is a rare timing window of a bus request being cancelled, or a broken > grant line; with an M9302 in the system, a SACK will result. > > The only difference between the two is that because of the way grant lines > are wired, the M8264 will not respond to a broken grant line 'downstream' > of > the M8264. > > The M8264 does add this capability to a system using an M930 terminator - > but > just switching to an M902 would be simpler. And the M9302 pre-dates the > M8264, as we can see from EK-11034-OP-PRE2. So I'm really quite confused as > to what the point of the M8264 was. > > Noel > From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 09:02:08 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:02:08 -0500 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <20220221151910.6EFE918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220221151910.6EFE918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0bdb01d82a58$a9483540$fbd89fc0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 10:19 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? >... > Since the M9302 appears in EK-11034-OP-PRE2, with SACK turnaround, I deduce that the M8264 was > produced _after_ that came out, and post-dates the M9302, to fix the potential CPU hang issue I > described - and was later dropped when the -11/34 switched to the KD11-EA, with that circuit built in. >... > Noel Note that the RICM has an 11/34 configuration that reports a KD11-EA with a M8264 "KD11-D/E". And a M9302 at the bus far-end. See: https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-11-34 _-2 ----- paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Feb 25 09:04:41 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:04:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220225150441.9139F18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > What about the M9300 board? Do you have an idea what the purpose is of > that card? Yes, that one's well-documented and understood. It's intended for use on the 'B' UNIBUS of the RH11-AB, in deployment configuratons where that UNIBUS is in use, but there's no CPU on it to respond to NPR bus requests. (See: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RH11_Peripheral_Controller_Course.pdf pg. 11 for an example; the 'B' UNIBUS of the -11/45 is used for a separate path into the 45's dual-port FASTBUS memory.) On such a UNIBUS, the M9300 is used at the start of the bus, and is jumpered to allow on-board circuitry to respond to an NPR with an NPG.It also has a SACK timeout capability, documented in: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RH11-AB_OptionDescr.pdf on pp. 69-70, but I'm not fully familiar with that. Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 09:08:05 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:08:05 -0500 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: References: <20220225042456.8037F18C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0be001d82a59$7dea4270$79bec750$@gmail.com> That module was specifically called for in the RH11-AB dual-port Unibus-to-MASSBUS interface as the Unibus B terminator. See RH11-AB_OptionDescr.pdf, Section 4.24 (page 4-32/33), which has a fairly lengthy write-up. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via cctalk Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 2:29 AM To: Noel Chiappa ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? What about the M9300 board? Do you have an idea what the purpose is of that card? It look a bit like a M9302 but with more logic on it and a few jumpers and a LED. It also have a delay line and a monostable flip-flop. Here is a photo of a (dusty) M9300: http://forum.datormuseum.se/data/B21AEA95-02C2-402B-BC97-06790BAEDC88/84B52290-D267-46C8-8B65-1A3EFEF7916B.jpg /Mattis From js at cimmeri.com Fri Feb 25 14:09:52 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:09:52 -0500 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> Hi, folks. I've a HP 9915A computer with an interesting problem. The motherboard utilizes a ceramic Intel D8048 chip. The problem is that this 8048 has a crack right across the top middle of it, and half of the top of the chip has begun to separate. Powering up the machine as-is unsurprisingly results in no activity. HOWEVER, if I push firmly on the cracked area with my finger the machine starts to operate normally. All appearances are that clamping down the separating piece of the chip re-establishes any broken wire connections within the chip. I've obtained a replacement P8048AH. My question is: do these chips simply swap like a CPU, or -- as I fear -- is the 8048 a pre-programmed piece? More simply put, is this a repairable problem? Or am I SOL? Any thoughts welcomed. - John Singleton From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 14:23:29 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:23:29 -0400 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: The 8048 is a mask programmed part, there is an EPROM version 8748.? While the 8048 is mask programmed I believe that the contents of the ROM can be dumped. Paul. On 2022-02-25 16:09, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, folks. > > ?? I've a HP 9915A computer with an interesting problem.?? The > motherboard utilizes a ceramic Intel D8048 chip.?? The problem is that > this 8048 has a crack right across the top middle of it, and half of > the top of the chip has begun to separate. > > ? Powering up the machine as-is unsurprisingly results in no > activity.?? HOWEVER, if I push firmly on the cracked area with my > finger the machine starts to operate normally.?? All appearances are > that clamping down the separating piece of the chip re-establishes any > broken wire connections within the chip. > > ?? I've obtained a replacement P8048AH.?? My question is: do these > chips simply swap like a CPU, or -- as I fear -- is the 8048 a > pre-programmed piece???? More simply put, is this a repairable > problem?? Or am I SOL? > > ?? Any thoughts welcomed. > > - John Singleton > From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Feb 25 16:09:27 2022 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:09:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <202842059.2764907.1645826967203@email.ionos.com> > On 02/25/2022 2:23 PM Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > > The 8048 is a mask programmed part, there is an EPROM version 8748. > While the 8048 is mask programmed I believe that the contents of the ROM > can be dumped. > > As Paul said, the 8048 is mask programmed. However, I agree it is readable. I "think" if you follow the "verify" step in the linked datasheet you can read from the rom. https://www.ceibo.com/eng/datasheets/Intel-8048-8049-8050-plcc-dip.pdf Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 26 02:14:50 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 08:14:50 -0000 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 Message-ID: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. As you can see here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have put the CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. There is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. With a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I am wondering if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is room to move the RL02s down and it would presumably leave a bit of a gap below the CPU. There seems to be very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 at the front but more at the back, but I am sure that the rails are mounted horizontally. Is it just a matter of tightening the big screws that hold the mounting brackets to stop the play? If so I am not sure I have a big enough screwdriver! Regards Rob From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 02:47:56 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 03:47:56 -0500 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> The conventional mounting for RL02 drives in a corporate cabinet puts one at the top with the 6U CPU in the middle *but* that assumes that you have a corporate cabinet designed for that purpose -- in which case the top is missing so that the RL02 disk-pack can be directly accessed, and there is a 1U divider below the top RL02 that reinforces the rack (and in effect replaces the 1U lip on your rack top). AFAIK you should be able to make your rack plan work; it's just the case that RL02 are always "top snug" (at least in my experience). Have you tried raising the 6U CPU as high as possible *before* tightening the bolts/screws on the mounting flanges on the slides (to the rack, not to the chassis)? There's usually ~1/8" of play there. From your photo perhaps you have already done that as the CPU-front looks to be snug to the rack-top. If anything it looks as if your RL02 instead need to move down. I would start by moving the bottom RL02 down as far as possible, then repeat with the second RL02. Your observation that there is "very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 at the front but more at the back" suggests to me that you need to fiddle move with the front and /or rear mounting flange positioning on the various slides. Don't assume that wherever "gravity drops them" is going to be correct. If none of the suggested adjustments are working then I would consider getting out a rat-tail file and enlarging the slots on the mounting flanges on the RL02 slides so as to let them drop a little lower (assuming that you have clearance at the bottom!). Regardless you shouldn't need to play with the slide-to-chassis attachment points -- those are always "just so" and not really free to fiddle with (no "slop"). In my experience "racking" is a fiddling-time and clearances can be *really* tight. But ... it can be done :->. Good Luck. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2022 3:15 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. As you can see here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have put the CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. There is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. With a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I am wondering if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is room to move the RL02s down and it would presumably leave a bit of a gap below the CPU. There seems to be very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 at the front but more at the back, but I am sure that the rails are mounted horizontally. Is it just a matter of tightening the big screws that hold the mounting brackets to stop the play? If so I am not sure I have a big enough screwdriver! Regards Rob From ed at groenenberg.net Sat Feb 26 02:24:05 2022 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 08:24:05 +0000 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: When I had a 11/24 it was in the wider cabinet (small panel to allow access to terminal cables and such) the cpu box was in the middle, with drive '1' on top. Regards, Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 February 26, 2022 9:14 AM, "Rob Jarratt via cctalk" wrote: > I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. > > As you can see here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress I have put the > CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. > > The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. There > is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. With > a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I am wondering > if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is room to move the RL02s > down and it would presumably leave a bit of a gap below the CPU. There seems > to be very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 at the front but > more at the back, but I am sure that the rails are mounted horizontally. Is > it just a matter of tightening the big screws that hold the mounting > brackets to stop the play? If so I am not sure I have a big enough > screwdriver! > > Regards > > Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Feb 26 04:19:12 2022 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 05:19:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? Message-ID: <20220226101912.97B0818C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> (I have yet to check and see if the KY11-LB asserts SACK if the CPU >> halts on its own accord - probably 'yes', but that's a project for tomorrow.) Yes, it does. I toggled in the following program: 5000 5200 776 0 (what, you all can't program a PDP-11 in octal? :-) and hit 'start' and the SACK light on the UA11 flashed out and came back on when the machine finally halted. So then I looked at CPU tech manual for the KD11-E, and the HALT instruction seems to act exactly like the console has requested a processor halt; it just sets the HLT RQST signal (see Section 4.5.5 "Operate Instructions"). So, either (console halt, or a HALT instruction) will cause the identical response in the processor; see Section 4.10.3 "Halt Grant Requests": the CPU sends HLT GRANT to the console, which returns SACK. As long as SACK is asserted, the processor waits with its clock inhibited: "The user can maintain the processor in this inactive state (Halted) indefinitely. When the HALT switch is released, the user's console releases BUS SACK L, and the processor continues operation" This text is obviously for the KY11-LA; the KY11-LB will operate identically: when the console releases SACK, the processor resumes operation. > From: Fritz Mueller >> when I powered the machine on, it turned out that something was >> asserting SACK when the machine was halted > That is quite interesting, and not what I would have expected! Yes, I was quite surprised; I didn't expect that either. Now that I know that the KY11-LB uses it to talk to the KD11, I can work around it, though. I'll have to write all this up to warn others about it. >> The thing that's puzzling me is that the M8264 seems to exactly >> replicate the functionality of the M9302, with an 'unused' bus grant >> being turned into a SACK. So I don't understand the point of the M8264. > I think the only difference would be that since the M8264 is timer > based, it doesn't need the intact end-to-end path required for > turnaround. So your bus won't lock even if you have a broken grant > chain or a poorly behaved or hung device eating grants. You are right about it being timer-based, but I'm not sure the conclusion follows, at least exactly as stated. If there's a broken grant chain, then as you originally pointed out, the M9302 will jam SACK on. The M8264 could not even be there, and nothing would be any different. Same thing if the CPU asserts a grant in response to a now-removed interrupt request: the M9302 will jam SACK on, etc, etc. I'm racking my brain to think up _any_ circumstance in which the M8264 will assert SACK. in which the M9302 wouldn't. Thinking it through, there has to be a grant, but it can't get to the M9302 (because otherwise it would do its thing), but that failure to get there can't be simply a broken grant chain (ditto). So some device has to be malfunctioning: not passing a grant along, but eating it. So either a hard-failed component in the grant-passing circuit, or some design flaw. (It can't be a glitch; it has to be a permanent thing which prevents passing the grant.) I suppose that's possible, but I can't see any othey way. Noel From js at cimmeri.com Sat Feb 26 11:15:50 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:15:50 -0500 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: <202842059.2764907.1645826967203@email.ionos.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> <202842059.2764907.1645826967203@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <621A6046.6060409@cimmeri.com> On 2/25/2022 5:09 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> On 02/25/2022 2:23 PM Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> The 8048 is a mask programmed part, there is an EPROM version 8748. >> While the 8048 is mask programmed I believe that the contents of the ROM >> can be dumped. > As Paul said, the 8048 is mask programmed. However, I agree it is readable. I "think" if you follow the "verify" step in the linked datasheet you can read from the rom. > > https://www.ceibo.com/eng/datasheets/Intel-8048-8049-8050-plcc-dip.pdf > > Will Thanks very much Paul, Will! From info gleaned from this webpage (especially the comments at bottom): http://www.mattmillman.com/projects/hveprom-project/an-easy-to-build-mcs-48-8748-8749-8741-8742-8048-8049-programmer-reader/ ... indeed looks like there is a chance the HP's 8048 could be read and possibly programmed into an alternate part. However, it's a daunting task in my case. I'd first have to build a 8048 programmer/reader shield for an Arduino, and then try to get my cracked 8048 successfully unsoldered from the HP 9915A motherboard, and then attempt to get consistent reads from it -- a special challenge due the crack. As the chances of success are highly improbable, looks like I'm SOL on this particular motherboard. Anyone have a HP 9915 they'd like to sell? - John Singleton From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Feb 26 12:49:01 2022 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 10:49:01 -0800 Subject: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential? In-Reply-To: <20220226101912.97B0818C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20220226101912.97B0818C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <74792DE4-AFE4-40E1-8BDF-3D6B53D2DBAA@fritzm.org> > On Feb 26, 2022, at 2:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, either (console halt, or a HALT instruction) will cause the identical > response in the processor; see Section 4.10.3 "Halt Grant Requests": the CPU > sends HLT GRANT to the console, which returns SACK. As long as SACK is > asserted, the processor waits with its clock inhibited: Ah, interesting! I had no idea the console(s) used SACK to interact with the CPU in this way. That?s a useful tidbit to tuck away for future reference. > If there's a broken grant chain, then as you originally pointed out, the M9302 > will jam SACK on. The M8264 could not even be there, and nothing would be any > different. Same thing if the CPU asserts a grant in response to a now-removed > interrupt request: the M9302 will jam SACK on, etc, etc. Perhaps the intent was to always use a non-turnaround far side terminator in configurations with an M8264? cheers, ?FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Feb 26 13:21:14 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:21:14 -0500 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7ED0272A-4BA2-4C05-8218-78AB987F0E80@comcast.net> > On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:14 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. > > > > As you can see here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have put the > CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. That seems fine. Others mentioned having them at the top of a low cabinet, but the RL02s I used were in H960 (6 foot) racks, mid-level with stuff above them. > The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. There > is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. With > a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I am wondering > if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is room to move the RL02s > down and it would presumably leave a bit of a gap below the CPU. There seems > to be very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 at the front but > more at the back, but I am sure that the rails are mounted horizontally. Is > it just a matter of tightening the big screws that hold the mounting > brackets to stop the play? If so I am not sure I have a big enough > screwdriver! Hardware stores can fix that. Or Brownells, where you can get really good screwdrivers that are less likely to damage screw heads than standard hardware store ones do. Something I observed on my H960 that wasn't all that obvious at first: the holes are NOT evenly spaced. If I remember right, they come in groups of four where the spacing between groups is something like 1/8th of an inch more than the spacing within groups. The consequence is that if you attach your brackets using the wrong set of holes things may be 1/4 inch (or whatever the delta is) closer than they were meant to be. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Feb 26 13:36:23 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:36:23 -0500 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: <621A6046.6060409@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> <202842059.2764907.1645826967203@email.ionos.com> <621A6046.6060409@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 2/26/22 12:15, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2/25/2022 5:09 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >>> On 02/25/2022 2:23 PM Paul Berger via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> The 8048 is a mask programmed part, there is an EPROM version 8748. >>> While the 8048 is mask programmed I believe that the contents of the ROM >>> can be dumped. >> As Paul said, the 8048 is mask programmed.? However, I agree it is >> readable.? I "think" if you follow the "verify" step in the linked >> datasheet you can read from the rom. >> >> https://www.ceibo.com/eng/datasheets/Intel-8048-8049-8050-plcc-dip.pdf >> >> Will > > > Thanks very much Paul, Will! > > From info gleaned from this webpage (especially the comments at bottom): > > http://www.mattmillman.com/projects/hveprom-project/an-easy-to-build-mcs-48-8748-8749-8741-8742-8048-8049-programmer-reader/ > > > > ... indeed looks like there is a chance the HP's 8048 could be read and > possibly programmed into an alternate part. However, it's a daunting > task in my case.? I'd first have to build a 8048 programmer/reader > shield for an Arduino, and then try to get my cracked 8048 successfully > unsoldered from the HP 9915A motherboard, and then attempt to get > consistent reads from it -- a special challenge due the crack. > > As the chances of success are highly improbable, looks like I'm SOL on > this particular motherboard. > > Anyone have a HP 9915 they'd like to sell? > Could the PROM be read by a running machine? Could someone who has one working read it and send you a copy of the image? bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 26 14:04:07 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:04:07 -0000 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> Thank you for the reply. > -----Original Message----- > From: pbirkel at gmail.com > Sent: 26 February 2022 08:48 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > The conventional mounting for RL02 drives in a corporate cabinet puts one at > the top with the 6U CPU in the middle *but* that assumes that you have a > corporate cabinet designed for that purpose -- in which case the top is > missing so that the RL02 disk-pack can be directly accessed, and there is a 1U > divider below the top RL02 that reinforces the rack (and in effect replaces the > 1U lip on your rack top). I saw something somewhere that suggested the RL02 should be at the top with the disk accessible without pulling out the drive. I don't think the cabinet I have was intended to do that, but I will have a closer look. > > AFAIK you should be able to make your rack plan work; it's just the case that > RL02 are always "top snug" (at least in my experience). Have you tried raising > the 6U CPU as high as possible *before* tightening the bolts/screws on the > mounting flanges on the slides (to the rack, not to the chassis)? > There's usually ~1/8" of play there. From your photo perhaps you have > already done that as the CPU-front looks to be snug to the rack-top. If > anything it looks as if your RL02 instead need to move down. > I did try raising the CPU as high as possible. Will have another look to see if the RL02s can be dropped a bit lower, but I don't think they can go lower in terms of using lower slots, not unless I want to leave a gap and possible interfere with the space at the bottom where there will be some cables I think. I would like to avoid filing though! > I would start by moving the bottom RL02 down as far as possible, then repeat > with the second RL02. > > Your observation that there is "very little clearance between the CPU and the > RL02 at the front but more at the back" suggests to me that you need to > fiddle move with the front and /or rear mounting flange positioning on the > various slides. Don't assume that wherever "gravity drops them" is going to > be correct. > > If none of the suggested adjustments are working then I would consider > getting out a rat-tail file and enlarging the slots on the mounting flanges on > the RL02 slides so as to let them drop a little lower (assuming that you have > clearance at the bottom!). > > Regardless you shouldn't need to play with the slide-to-chassis attachment > points -- those are always "just so" and not really free to fiddle with (no > "slop"). There *is* a bit of play in the big black sheet that is screwed onto CPU enclosure. > > In my experience "racking" is a fiddling-time and clearances can be *really* > tight. But ... it can be done :->. Good Luck. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2022 3:15 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. > > As you can see here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have put > the CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. > > The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. > There is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. > With a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I am > wondering if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is room to move > the RL02s down and it would presumably leave a bit of a gap below the CPU. > There seems to be very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 at the > front but more at the back, but I am sure that the rails are mounted > horizontally. Is it just a matter of tightening the big screws that hold the > mounting brackets to stop the play? If so I am not sure I have a big enough > screwdriver! > > Regards > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 26 14:05:37 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:05:37 -0000 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <7ED0272A-4BA2-4C05-8218-78AB987F0E80@comcast.net> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <7ED0272A-4BA2-4C05-8218-78AB987F0E80@comcast.net> Message-ID: <013601d82b4c$3911b400$ab351c00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 26 February 2022 19:21 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt ; > cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > > > > On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:14 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. > > > > > > > > As you can see here: > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have > > put the CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. > > That seems fine. Others mentioned having them at the top of a low cabinet, > but the RL02s I used were in H960 (6 foot) racks, mid-level with stuff above > them. > > > The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. > > There is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. > > With a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I > > am wondering if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is > > room to move the RL02s down and it would presumably leave a bit of a > > gap below the CPU. There seems to be very little clearance between the > > CPU and the RL02 at the front but more at the back, but I am sure that > > the rails are mounted horizontally. Is it just a matter of tightening > > the big screws that hold the mounting brackets to stop the play? If so > > I am not sure I have a big enough screwdriver! > > Hardware stores can fix that. Or Brownells, where you can get really good > screwdrivers that are less likely to damage screw heads than standard > hardware store ones do. I am not in the USA, but I am should be able to look for other screwdrivers here in the UK. I already have one quite big one, but I think it is still way too small for this purpose. > > Something I observed on my H960 that wasn't all that obvious at first: the > holes are NOT evenly spaced. If I remember right, they come in groups of > four where the spacing between groups is something like 1/8th of an inch > more than the spacing within groups. The consequence is that if you attach > your brackets using the wrong set of holes things may be 1/4 inch (or > whatever the delta is) closer than they were meant to be. > > paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Feb 26 14:13:53 2022 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:13:53 -0500 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <013601d82b4c$3911b400$ab351c00$@ntlworld.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <7ED0272A-4BA2-4C05-8218-78AB987F0E80@comcast.net> <013601d82b4c$3911b400$ab351c00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <10A121DD-A23A-4213-8B29-5954C5AA0268@comcast.net> > On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:05 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> ... >> Hardware stores can fix that. Or Brownells, where you can get really good >> screwdrivers that are less likely to damage screw heads than standard >> hardware store ones do. > > I am not in the USA, but I am should be able to look for other screwdrivers > here in the UK. I already have one quite big one, but I think it is still > way too small for this purpose. Brownell's is a gunsmith supply store, but the screwdrivers I was talking about are also known as "clockmaker's screwdrivers". Either way, they have hollow-ground hardened blades rather than flat-sided bevel tips, and they come in a range of withs as well as thickness. I use them for any situation where a good fit in the screw head is important. For oversized screwdrivers, the ones that are sold as pry bars can serve... paul From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 14:21:50 2022 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:21:50 -0500 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this: http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg The "DECDatasystem" front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the upper portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours has). Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight and fiddly any place but the top-spot. The "play" is because those immense-head screws are the pivot-points that allow the chassis to be pivoted up 90 degrees (when the slides are extended) in order to more easily access the underside of the backplane. They are intentionally slightly loose in order for the pivot to work. You really don't need, or want, to play with those screws. -----Original Message----- From: Rob Jarratt Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2022 3:04 PM To: pbirkel at gmail.com; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Racking a PDP-11/24 Thank you for the reply. > -----Original Message----- > From: pbirkel at gmail.com > Sent: 26 February 2022 08:48 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > The conventional mounting for RL02 drives in a corporate cabinet puts > one at > the top with the 6U CPU in the middle *but* that assumes that you have > a corporate cabinet designed for that purpose -- in which case the top > is missing so that the RL02 disk-pack can be directly accessed, and > there is a 1U > divider below the top RL02 that reinforces the rack (and in effect replaces the > 1U lip on your rack top). I saw something somewhere that suggested the RL02 should be at the top with the disk accessible without pulling out the drive. I don't think the cabinet I have was intended to do that, but I will have a closer look. > > AFAIK you should be able to make your rack plan work; it's just the > case that > RL02 are always "top snug" (at least in my experience). Have you > tried raising > the 6U CPU as high as possible *before* tightening the bolts/screws on > the mounting flanges on the slides (to the rack, not to the chassis)? > There's usually ~1/8" of play there. From your photo perhaps you have > already done that as the CPU-front looks to be snug to the rack-top. > If anything it looks as if your RL02 instead need to move down. > I did try raising the CPU as high as possible. Will have another look to see if the RL02s can be dropped a bit lower, but I don't think they can go lower in terms of using lower slots, not unless I want to leave a gap and possible interfere with the space at the bottom where there will be some cables I think. I would like to avoid filing though! > I would start by moving the bottom RL02 down as far as possible, then repeat > with the second RL02. > > Your observation that there is "very little clearance between the CPU > and the > RL02 at the front but more at the back" suggests to me that you need > to fiddle move with the front and /or rear mounting flange positioning > on the various slides. Don't assume that wherever "gravity drops > them" is going to > be correct. > > If none of the suggested adjustments are working then I would consider > getting out a rat-tail file and enlarging the slots on the mounting flanges on > the RL02 slides so as to let them drop a little lower (assuming that > you have > clearance at the bottom!). > > Regardless you shouldn't need to play with the slide-to-chassis > attachment points -- those are always "just so" and not really free to > fiddle with (no > "slop"). There *is* a bit of play in the big black sheet that is screwed onto CPU enclosure. > > In my experience "racking" is a fiddling-time and clearances can be *really* > tight. But ... it can be done :->. Good Luck. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2022 3:15 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. > > As you can see here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have > put the CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. > > The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. > There is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. > With a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I > am wondering if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is > room to move > the RL02s down and it would presumably leave a bit of a gap below the CPU. > There seems to be very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 > at the > front but more at the back, but I am sure that the rails are mounted > horizontally. Is it just a matter of tightening the big screws that > hold the > mounting brackets to stop the play? If so I am not sure I have a big enough > screwdriver! > > Regards > > Rob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 14:21:42 2022 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:21:42 +0000 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: <621A6046.6060409@cimmeri.com> References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> <202842059.2764907.1645826967203@email.ionos.com> <621A6046.6060409@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 5:19 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > As the chances of success are highly > improbable, looks like I'm SOL on this > particular motherboard. My bench is rather full at the moment and will be for a few more weeks... But if you get no other help and you can wait a bit, I believe one of my old EPROM programmers can read the 8048/8748 with the right adaptor, and the schematic of that is in the manual. I also have a working (I hope) HP9915. So I could have a go at making said adaptor, extracting the 8048 from my HP9915, and readng it out. You would then have to find somebody who could program the ROM image into an 8748. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 26 14:22:46 2022 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:22:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <10A121DD-A23A-4213-8B29-5954C5AA0268@comcast.net> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <7ED0272A-4BA2-4C05-8218-78AB987F0E80@comcast.net> <013601d82b4c$3911b400$ab351c00$@ntlworld.com> <10A121DD-A23A-4213-8B29-5954C5AA0268@comcast.net> Message-ID: > I am not in the USA, but I am should be able to look for other screwdrivers > here in the UK. I already have one quite big one, but I think it is still > way too small for this purpose. How big is it? For ridiculously large flat-blade screws, look at "drag link socket"s. For just getting extreme amounts of torque, use a bit on a ratchet, rather than on a screwdriver handle. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 15:49:13 2022 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 17:49:13 -0400 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> <202842059.2764907.1645826967203@email.ionos.com> <621A6046.6060409@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <4d42bab6-2b46-49c8-7f7d-072a8742b763@gmail.com> On 2022-02-26 16:21, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 5:19 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > >> As the chances of success are highly >> improbable, looks like I'm SOL on this >> particular motherboard. > My bench is rather full at the moment and will be for a few more weeks... > > But if you get no other help and you can wait a bit, I believe one of > my old EPROM programmers can read the 8048/8748 with the right > adaptor, and the schematic of that is in the manual. I also have a > working (I hope) HP9915. So I could have a go at making said adaptor, > extracting the 8048 from my HP9915, and readng it out. You would then > have to find somebody who could program the ROM image into an 8748. > > -tony If no one else steps up I have more that one programmer that can handle 8748, I probably have a few 8748s as well. Paul. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 26 16:02:34 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 22:02:34 -0000 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <10A121DD-A23A-4213-8B29-5954C5AA0268@comcast.net> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <7ED0272A-4BA2-4C05-8218-78AB987F0E80@comcast.net> <013601d82b4c$3911b400$ab351c00$@ntlworld.com> <10A121DD-A23A-4213-8B29-5954C5AA0268@comcast.net> Message-ID: <014101d82b5c$8f444030$adccc090$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 26 February 2022 20:14 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > > > > On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:05 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > >> ... > >> Hardware stores can fix that. Or Brownells, where you can get really > >> good screwdrivers that are less likely to damage screw heads than > >> standard hardware store ones do. > > > > I am not in the USA, but I am should be able to look for other > > screwdrivers here in the UK. I already have one quite big one, but I > > think it is still way too small for this purpose. > > Brownell's is a gunsmith supply store, but the screwdrivers I was talking > about are also known as "clockmaker's screwdrivers". Either way, they have > hollow-ground hardened blades rather than flat-sided bevel tips, and they > come in a range of withs as well as thickness. I use them for any situation > where a good fit in the screw head is important. > It seems Brownells exists here too, although it seems to be like Mouser where items actually ship from the USA. I had not heard the term hollow ground before, although I think I know what they are. > For oversized screwdrivers, the ones that are sold as pry bars can serve... > > paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 26 16:04:23 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 22:04:23 -0000 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014201d82b5c$d014f690$703ee3b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pbirkel at gmail.com > Sent: 26 February 2022 20:22 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this: > http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg The "DECDatasystem" > front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the upper > portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours has). > Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight and > fiddly any place but the top-spot. > > The "play" is because those immense-head screws are the pivot-points that > allow the chassis to be pivoted up 90 degrees (when the slides are extended) > in order to more easily access the underside of the backplane. They are > intentionally slightly loose in order for the pivot to work. You really don't > need, or want, to play with those screws. Ah! Thanks for that advice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2022 3:04 PM > To: pbirkel at gmail.com; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > Thank you for the reply. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pbirkel at gmail.com > > Sent: 26 February 2022 08:48 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; > 'General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > > > The conventional mounting for RL02 drives in a corporate cabinet puts > > one > at > > the top with the 6U CPU in the middle *but* that assumes that you have > > a corporate cabinet designed for that purpose -- in which case the top > > is missing so that the RL02 disk-pack can be directly accessed, and > > there is a 1U divider below the top RL02 that reinforces the rack (and > > in effect > replaces the > > 1U lip on your rack top). > > I saw something somewhere that suggested the RL02 should be at the top > with the disk accessible without pulling out the drive. I don't think the cabinet > I have was intended to do that, but I will have a closer look. > > > > > AFAIK you should be able to make your rack plan work; it's just the > > case that > > RL02 are always "top snug" (at least in my experience). Have you > > tried raising the 6U CPU as high as possible *before* tightening the > > bolts/screws on the mounting flanges on the slides (to the rack, not > > to the chassis)? > > There's usually ~1/8" of play there. From your photo perhaps you have > > already done that as the CPU-front looks to be snug to the rack-top. > > If anything it looks as if your RL02 instead need to move down. > > > > I did try raising the CPU as high as possible. Will have another look to see > if the RL02s can be dropped a bit lower, but I don't think they can go lower > in terms of using lower slots, not unless I want to leave a gap and possible > interfere with the space at the bottom where there will be some cables I > think. I would like to avoid filing though! > > > I would start by moving the bottom RL02 down as far as possible, then > repeat > > with the second RL02. > > > > Your observation that there is "very little clearance between the CPU > > and the > > RL02 at the front but more at the back" suggests to me that you need > > to fiddle move with the front and /or rear mounting flange positioning > > on the various slides. Don't assume that wherever "gravity drops > > them" is going to > > be correct. > > > > If none of the suggested adjustments are working then I would consider > > getting out a rat-tail file and enlarging the slots on the mounting > flanges on > > the RL02 slides so as to let them drop a little lower (assuming that > > you have > > clearance at the bottom!). > > > > Regardless you shouldn't need to play with the slide-to-chassis > > attachment points -- those are always "just so" and not really free to > > fiddle with (no > > "slop"). > > There *is* a bit of play in the big black sheet that is screwed onto CPU > enclosure. > > > > > In my experience "racking" is a fiddling-time and clearances can be > *really* > > tight. But ... it can be done :->. Good Luck. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > via cctalk > > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2022 3:15 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > > > I am wondering if I have racked my 11/24 correctly. > > > > As you can see here: > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2022/02/10/pdp-11-24-progress/ I have > > put the CPU at the top and the two RL02 drives underneath. > > > > The problem is that the CPU enclosure catches on the RL02 underneath. > > There is a bit of play in the mounting bracket: > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/cpu-mounting-bracket.jpg. > > With a bit of manipulation I can get the CPU to slide in. However, I > > am wondering if I have racked it correctly? I don't think there is > > room to > move > > the RL02s down and it would presumably leave a bit of a gap below the > CPU. > > There seems to be very little clearance between the CPU and the RL02 > > at > the > > front but more at the back, but I am sure that the rails are mounted > > horizontally. Is it just a matter of tightening the big screws that > > hold > the > > mounting brackets to stop the play? If so I am not sure I have a big > enough > > screwdriver! > > > > Regards > > > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 26 16:08:48 2022 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 22:08:48 -0000 Subject: Racking a PDP-11/24 In-Reply-To: References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <7ED0272A-4BA2-4C05-8218-78AB987F0E80@comcast.net> <013601d82b4c$3911b400$ab351c00$@ntlworld.com> <10A121DD-A23A-4213-8B29-5954C5AA0268@comcast.net> Message-ID: <014801d82b5d$6e8da880$4ba8f980$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via > cctalk > Sent: 26 February 2022 20:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Racking a PDP-11/24 > > > I am not in the USA, but I am should be able to look for other > > screwdrivers here in the UK. I already have one quite big one, but I > > think it is still way too small for this purpose. > > How big is it? Pretty big. But I have been advised to leave it alone and work on the clearance instead. > > For ridiculously large flat-blade screws, look at "drag link socket"s. > > For just getting extreme amounts of torque, use a bit on a ratchet, rather > than on a screwdriver handle. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Feb 26 23:10:16 2022 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:10:16 +0000 Subject: RQDX3/RD31/RX50 jumpers Message-ID: <18aebc0b-e0ac-baaa-2331-d4dd6c3a035c@btinternet.com> Hi ????? Is the correct setting: ?????? 1. DS1 on the RD31 and the RX50's move up to DU1 and DU2. ?????? 2. DS3 on the RD31 and the RX50's are DU0 and DU1 I've tried both and it still? tries to access the RD31 and the RX50 at the same time. Its on a standrd BA23 R From chrise at pobox.com Mon Feb 28 13:07:52 2022 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:07:52 -0600 Subject: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (02/26/2022 at 03:21PM -0500), pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote: > A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this: > http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg The "DECDatasystem" > front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the upper > portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours has). > Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight and > fiddly any place but the top-spot. Is there a (hand-)book that describes the DEC cabinets and in particular this "top-mount corporate cabinet"? Is there a BA # for this cabinet? I have an 11/34 in said cabinet but it is missing this 1U strengthener although I do have the 1U front-bar. I had to jigger a means to hold the front-bar in place and have been unable to understand how it would correctly attach to the rack and the strengthener, probably because I don't have the strengthener! Any part numbers or drawings that show this arrangement would be quite helpful. Thanks! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Feb 28 13:47:14 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 14:47:14 -0500 Subject: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On 2/28/22 14:07, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On Saturday (02/26/2022 at 03:21PM -0500), pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote: >> A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this: >> http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg The "DECDatasystem" >> front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the upper >> portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours has). >> Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight and >> fiddly any place but the top-spot. > > Is there a (hand-)book that describes the DEC cabinets and in particular this > "top-mount corporate cabinet"? Is there a BA # for this cabinet? There's a picture of one with the 11/24 in the small box in it on the cover of the 1981 PDP11 Processor Handbook. You can see from the spacer between the 11/24 and the bottom RL02 that it could also accommodate the larger box version of the 11/24. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Feb 28 13:52:01 2022 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 14:52:01 -0500 Subject: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: References: <010e01d82ae8$ed6750e0$c835f2a0$@ntlworld.com> <0d0901d82aed$8cfbaf30$a6f30d90$@gmail.com> <013501d82b4c$03528c40$09f7a4c0$@ntlworld.com> <0e0a01d82b4e$7ce22af0$76a680d0$@gmail.com> <20220228190752.GB7643@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On 2/28/22 14:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 2/28/22 14:07, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: >> On Saturday (02/26/2022 at 03:21PM -0500), pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote: >>> A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this: >>> http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg? The "DECDatasystem" >>> front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the upper >>> portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours >>> has). >>> Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight >>> and >>> fiddly any place but the top-spot. >> >> Is there a (hand-)book that describes the DEC cabinets and in >> particular this >> "top-mount corporate cabinet"?? Is there a BA # for this cabinet? > > There's a picture of one with the 11/24 in the small box in it on the > cover of the 1981 PDP11 Processor Handbook.? You can see from the spacer > between the 11/24 and the bottom RL02 that it could also accommodate the > larger box version of the 11/24. > > bill > As a follow on note.... That was what the very first personally owned PDP-11 was. It came to me from HighLights Magazine thru my job at the University of Scranton. I miss that machine. Sorry I ever got rid of it. bill From js at cimmeri.com Mon Feb 28 13:49:09 2022 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 14:49:09 -0500 Subject: HP 9915A failed 8048 In-Reply-To: References: <3b70113a-a605-d9b0-df98-aa9e1785f367@btinternet.com> <621572AE.1060506@cimmeri.com> <62193790.8030609@cimmeri.com> <202842059.2764907.1645826967203@email.ionos.com> <621A6046.6060409@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <621D2735.4070405@cimmeri.com> On 2/26/2022 3:21 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 5:19 PM js--- via cctalk wrote: > >> As the chances of success are highly >> improbable, looks like I'm SOL on this >> particular motherboard. > My bench is rather full at the moment and will be for a few more weeks... > > But if you get no other help and you can wait a bit, I believe one of > my old EPROM programmers can read the 8048/8748 with the right > adaptor, and the schematic of that is in the manual. I also have a > working (I hope) HP9915. So I could have a go at making said adaptor, > extracting the 8048 from my HP9915, and readng it out. You would then > have to find somebody who could program the ROM image into an 8748. > > -tony Hi, Tony! Long time! Thank you VERY MUCH for your very generous offer! Dave McGuire was extremely kind to send me a ROM dump of the HP 9915's 8048, that he had -- to my amazement -- already made for himself. So to my complete surprise, I do have the ROM contents at this point. I've a Data I/O 2900 which supposedly can program the 8748, so I'll give that a try if I can figure out how to use it again (been a long time). I've ordered a NOS 8748 off eBay. I'll give all this a try and post results here. - John Singleton