From icardona at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 06:26:29 2021 From: icardona at gmail.com (Iban Cardona) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 13:26:29 +0200 Subject: problem in HP 3000 System 37 Message-ID: Hi, some weeks ago I've purchased a System 37 in ebay. This unit was ebay in the year 2020 and the owner was made this video too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1CZKQtaoSo When I power up the displays shows a 1. Sometimes if I stop and start fast the display shows a 2, but in all the cases all the leds stills lighted. The voltages on the power supply are OK, and in general I the unit have a good look, I don't see corrosion or leakages from capacitors. Looking the SPU training PDF of Bitsavers/HPMuseum , looks that maybe is related with a ROM or the WCS. Somebody have more info about this error, or know if is possible get some schematics / service manual? Thanks a lot Iban From gavin at learn.bio Thu Sep 2 08:02:08 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 08:02:08 -0500 Subject: problem in HP 3000 System 37 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The red light on your disk drive is not promising I think, but you should be able to get some output to the terminal before it tries to talk to the disk. You should have the terminal turned on before you power on the SPU. In the video it looks like the latch mechanism on the terminal power button may be broken as the button pops right back out and the terminal does not appear to power on. If you hold the power button on the terminal down does the display come up with function key labels on screen etc.? If so, try turning the SPU key on while the terminal is on (self test may take a little while, but it has been several decades since I turned on a 37 so I don't recall exactly). You can watch Lee Courtney's Series 37XE power up video on YouTube which might be helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGtEvZRMPIk On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 6:26 AM Iban Cardona via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > some weeks ago I've purchased a System 37 in ebay. This unit was ebay in > the year 2020 and the owner was made this video too: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1CZKQtaoSo > > When I power up the displays shows a 1. Sometimes if I stop and start fast > the display shows a 2, but in all the cases all the leds stills lighted. > > The voltages on the power supply are OK, and in general I the unit have a > good look, I don't see corrosion or leakages from capacitors. > > Looking the SPU training PDF of Bitsavers/HPMuseum , looks that maybe is > related with a ROM or the WCS. > > Somebody have more info about this error, or know if is possible get some > schematics / service manual? > > Thanks a lot > > Iban From gavin at learn.bio Thu Sep 2 08:16:38 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 08:16:38 -0500 Subject: problem in HP 3000 System 37 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: P.S. The HP Museum has the CE handbook for the 37 and Micro 3000, but it's in the 3000 Micro XE section. You can find it by searching within the Documents page linked at the bottom of the left side navigation bar. 3000-37-MicroFamily_CEServiceHandbook_30457-90039_200pages_Feb89.pdf On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 8:02 AM Gavin Scott wrote: > > The red light on your disk drive is not promising I think, but you > should be able to get some output to the terminal before it tries to > talk to the disk. > > You should have the terminal turned on before you power on the SPU. In > the video it looks like the latch mechanism on the terminal power > button may be broken as the button pops right back out and the > terminal does not appear to power on. If you hold the power button on > the terminal down does the display come up with function key labels on > screen etc.? If so, try turning the SPU key on while the terminal is > on (self test may take a little while, but it has been several decades > since I turned on a 37 so I don't recall exactly). > > You can watch Lee Courtney's Series 37XE power up video on YouTube > which might be helpful. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGtEvZRMPIk > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 6:26 AM Iban Cardona via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > some weeks ago I've purchased a System 37 in ebay. This unit was ebay in > > the year 2020 and the owner was made this video too: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1CZKQtaoSo > > > > When I power up the displays shows a 1. Sometimes if I stop and start fast > > the display shows a 2, but in all the cases all the leds stills lighted. > > > > The voltages on the power supply are OK, and in general I the unit have a > > good look, I don't see corrosion or leakages from capacitors. > > > > Looking the SPU training PDF of Bitsavers/HPMuseum , looks that maybe is > > related with a ROM or the WCS. > > > > Somebody have more info about this error, or know if is possible get some > > schematics / service manual? > > > > Thanks a lot > > > > Iban From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 2 10:47:16 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:47:16 -0500 Subject: unknown rack PSU ("PPI 1247-000-91 ADDS") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501d7a011$ce28fd80$6a7af880$@classiccmp.org> ADDS also got into the minicomputer market, I believe the series was called "MENTOR" which was a Pick Systems OS clone. Link to a pic? From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 10:52:45 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:52:45 -0400 Subject: Archiving otrona attache disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an Otrona Attache disk, I've imaged using Dunfield's Image Disk program: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/ATTACHE/015.IMD If there is interest, please download and create a disk and try to use the disk on your Attache or MAME emulating an Otrona Attache. Let me know if you run into any problems. I am not sure if this particular disk image results in a bootable disk or if it's a data disk (WordStar files). Bill On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:09 PM Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2021, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > Is there a simh for the otrona attache? I have some.disk images created > > with Dunfield's utility..if not I will try to read them by using the > Zorba > > portable, which is pretty good with varied formats. > > Bill > > Otrona is fairly straightforward for format conversion. > CP/M and MS-DOS. There might have been other operating systems for them, > but I didn't run into any. > They had 40 track and 80 track drives. > 512 bytes per sector, so they can be done using Int13h, without even > needing Int1Eh. > 10 sectors per track; inter-sector gaps were tight but not unreasonable. > I don't remember whether they were numbered 0 - 9 or 1 - 10 > > From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Sep 2 14:51:20 2021 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Flo Williams) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 20:51:20 +0100 Subject: Scanning Suggestions (Bookmarks & Colour) Message-ID: <20210902205120.7b56cdea@chopoc.localdomain> With apologies for breaking the threading, as I've just rejoined and I'm responding to something I've just spotted in the archive ... Regarding colour separations for scanned documents, GraphicsMagick is quite capable of producing the required individual colour layers. If you identify the colours you wish to pull out, you can use the "-fuzz" and "-opaque" operators to change any given colour range (fuzz uses Euclidean distance in RGB space) into another one (the current "-fill" colour). I haven't finished writing this up, but my workflow tends to be to produce a Group4 TIFF from the colour scan by simple thresholding (or first dropping the other colours to white, if they are quite dark), and then produce all the other separations by dropping black out, converting your spot colour to black and then thresholding. This way you get two or more images: 1) PNG(s) containing pixels that are all either white or your spot colour, 2) a G4 TIFF for the black and white layer. The PNG must be saved as a two-colour paletted image so that they can be used as masks in the final PDF. I always apply the black and white (text) layer on top of every page, so that the fuzzing of the colour layers doesn't reduce the clarity of the text. This might sound awkward, but I've found that one fuzz value tends to work for all the pages when extracting a given colour, so you can process all pages in a loop. I use the Perl module PDF::Builder to put my scans together, but I think tumble is capable of overlays too. PNGs are compressed with deflate. If the spot colours you are processing apply to text in the document, my first thought was that I could save a bunch of Group4 TIFFs, one for each colour, and mask those into the PDF, because Group4 compression is impressive for text. It took some frustrating experiments before realising the Group4 compression isn't defined for two colour images in general; it is specifically for images that are black and white, and PDF won't let you circumvent that! I've just scanned another document with some blue diagrams and table backgrounds, if you'd like to see an example: https://vt100.net/dec/ek-0la75-ug-002.pdf I might reprocess this later, but for now, I didn't even bother separating out pages that contain blue from ones that don't; every page has a blue layer, even if it's blank. If you're wide awake, you may spot that the blue layer on page 41 doesn't extend to the bottom of the table. This isn't a processing flaw; the document is actually printed like that. Regards, Paul From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Sep 2 15:35:00 2021 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 16:35:00 -0400 Subject: problem in HP 3000 System 37 In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <20210902203455.154C04E6CE@mx2.ezwind.net> On Thursday, September 2, 2021 at 8:16, Gavin Scott via cctech wrote: > P.S. The HP Museum has the CE handbook for the 37 and Micro 3000, but > it's in the 3000 Micro XE section. You can find it by searching within > the Documents page linked at the bottom of the left side navigation > bar. > > 3000-37-MicroFamily_CEServiceHandbook_30457-90039_200pages_Feb89.pdf Page 5-31 of that manual details the LED display codes. Note also that the Series 37 requires certain PCAs to be in certain slots (pages 3-2 and 3-4), so it would be good to verify this too. And as Gavin mentions, the CPU tries to talk to the terminal after completing the self-test, so it's important to have a working terminal connected and turned on when powering up the system. -- Dave From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 3 04:10:50 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 10:10:50 +0100 Subject: Scanning Suggestions (Bookmarks & Colour) In-Reply-To: <20210902205120.7b56cdea@chopoc.localdomain> References: <20210902205120.7b56cdea@chopoc.localdomain> Message-ID: <194ea856-b3a5-3710-55fd-172366fd82b7@ntlworld.com> On 02/09/2021 20:51, Paul Flo Williams via cctalk wrote: > With apologies for breaking the threading, as I've just rejoined and I'm > responding to something I've just spotted in the archive ... Welcome back! > > I haven't finished writing this up, but my workflow tends to be to > produce a Group4 TIFF from the colour scan by simple thresholding (or > first dropping the other colours to white, if they are quite dark), and > then produce all the other separations by dropping black out, > converting your spot colour to black and then thresholding. This way > you get two or more images: > > 1) PNG(s) containing pixels that are all either white or your spot > colour, > 2) a G4 TIFF for the black and white layer. As I'm in the process of scanning manuals right now, and I'd like to preserve the colour, I'm looking forward to the write up. The ones I'm working on right now are mostly RSX-11 or VMS V4 and earlier, so they tend to highlight typed input by presenting that text in red. They also have blocks of grey as background on which text is printed (this looks OK even with a bilevel TIFF) and also blocks of red/pink as background for black text (and maybe red text too). I'm sure there's at least one manual that has blue text thrown into the mix too. > I've just scanned another document with some blue diagrams and table > backgrounds, if you'd like to see an example: > > https://vt100.net/dec/ek-0la75-ug-002.pdf > That looks really good. It copes very well with black text on blue background, so I imagine it would work well for the black text on red/pink shading case. What's the input to the process? G4 bilevel TIFF @ 600 dpi from the looks of your example, but how do you scan the colour pages? 600dpi to PNG? Or something else? Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From db at db.net Fri Sep 3 10:35:03 2021 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:35:03 -0400 Subject: FTGH 9t tapes Message-ID: Somehow these were sitting in my basement rafters for years. The tape seems ok on the big reels but I believe one of the small reels was gummy. Several write rings on the pile too. I'd rather not have to box these up TBQH but I will if someone really wants them. Location Ottawa Ontario Canada http://www.db.net/~db/tapes.png Diane -- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 3 17:46:04 2021 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East Message-ID: Here's the official show flyer for VCF East, October 8-10. Please pass it around. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GsmXLA2vIsBFWTcmMJLZfq1OQlxmShBU/view Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cube1 at charter.net Fri Sep 3 20:42:00 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:42:00 -0500 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/14/2021 12:32 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > VT100 to the rescue, the VLC is fine talking to it so now I'm wondering why > my old faithful hardware UART in this PC I'm typing on now has let me down. > > The BlueSCSI appears as 7 devices though, which is usually a termination or > ID problem so I now need to dig out an external terminator for the box > since it's never had one. The hard drive in there has been good at > providing its own TERMPWR which the BlueSCSI should too but I'll play by > the rules to test things properly. > > Cheers, > I think BlueSCSI will only appear as the devices you have image files named for on its SD card. JRJ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 4 04:34:51 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:34:51 +0100 Subject: Capacitors on M8722 Board Message-ID: <052d01d7a170$1c9f4cd0$55dde670$@ntlworld.com> I have a PDP 11/24 which I hope to power up soon. The last time it had power I noticed a bit of a burning smell which I failed to track down. However, I did notice one capacitor on a memory board has a strange appearance, almost as if there is some corrosion under the surface, it doesn't seem to be bulging though, except along the top, but if it is bulging it is very bumpy. I have a picture of it here: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2021/09/wp_20210904_10_15_28_rich.jpg. It is marked 47uF 30V, but it is also marked 20v as can be seen in the picture. I lifted it to measure its capacitance and ESR. It measures about 80uF and the ESR seems OK. I am unsure whether to replace it, and if so what voltage rating should I replace it with? I don't understand if this is a 30V rated capacitor or 20V. It seems that Unibus has some 20V signals, so I guess 20V might be right? I don't think 30V or 20V parts exist though, so I would need to get 35V or 25V. Maybe the voltage rating isn't too critical? Any advice? Thanks Rob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 04:58:49 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:58:49 +0100 Subject: Capacitors on M8722 Board In-Reply-To: <052d01d7a170$1c9f4cd0$55dde670$@ntlworld.com> References: <052d01d7a170$1c9f4cd0$55dde670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 10:35 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I lifted it to measure its capacitance and ESR. It measures about 80uF and With a lot of capacitance meters, a leaky capacitor will read high. So that may explain why it's reading 80uF > the ESR seems OK. I am unsure whether to replace it, and if so what voltage > rating should I replace it with? I don't understand if this is a 30V rated > capacitor or 20V. It seems that Unibus has some 20V signals, so I guess 20V > might be right? I don't think 30V or 20V parts exist though, so I would need > to get 35V or 25V. Maybe the voltage rating isn't too critical? In general you can always replace a capacitor with one of a sensibly higher voltage rating if there's space for it. It's the maximum voltage that the capacitor will stand before it breaks down and passes DC. In other words, a 35V or 63V one would be fine here. -tony From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 05:44:56 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 11:44:56 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 4 Sep 2021, at 02:42, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/14/2021 12:32 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> VT100 to the rescue, the VLC is fine talking to it so now I'm wondering why >> my old faithful hardware UART in this PC I'm typing on now has let me down. >> The BlueSCSI appears as 7 devices though, which is usually a termination or >> ID problem so I now need to dig out an external terminator for the box >> since it's never had one. The hard drive in there has been good at >> providing its own TERMPWR which the BlueSCSI should too but I'll play by >> the rules to test things properly. >> Cheers, > > I think BlueSCSI will only appear as the devices you have image files named for on its SD card. What I meant was on a SHO DEV I got 7 Quantum Fireballs (DKA0-500, DKA700), in my VAX days this meant there was either an ID conflict with another device on the bus or a termination issue. I only had one image on the sdcard which was ID0 so there weren?t any other devices present, so it had to be a termination issue. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 4 07:30:38 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:30:38 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 04/09/2021 02:42, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 7/14/2021 12:32 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> VT100 to the rescue, the VLC is fine talking to it so now I'm >> wondering why >> my old faithful hardware UART in this PC I'm typing on now has let me >> down. >> >> The BlueSCSI appears as 7 devices though, which is usually a >> termination or >> ID problem so I now need to dig out an external terminator for the box >> since it's never had one. The hard drive in there has been good at >> providing its own TERMPWR which the BlueSCSI should too but I'll play by >> the rules to test things properly. >> >> Cheers, >> > > I think BlueSCSI will only appear as the devices you have image files > named for on its SD card. > > JRJ "Digital Diggings" couldn't get BlueSCSI to work on either VAX or Alpha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEh7owqHxU&t=36s. That's a pity as it's much cheaper than SCSI2SD. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 4 08:26:43 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 14:26:43 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have the H9642 Enclosure Maintenance Manual EK-187AA-MG Message-ID: <054201d7a190$812977a0$837c66e0$@ntlworld.com> I have looked on Manx and on Bitsavers and I don't see it there. Thanks Rob From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Sep 4 08:34:30 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 09:34:30 -0400 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2021-09-04 08:30, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > "Digital Diggings" couldn't get BlueSCSI to work on either VAX or Alpha: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEh7owqHxU&t=36s. > That's a pity as it's much cheaper than SCSI2SD. OK guys, but please compare that to costs for SCSI drives (please 6 of them, as you have partitions on the SDCARD), cost of SCSI controllers (QBUS/UNIBUS anyone?), or even IDE drives. So this is whining on a pretty high level, and there is no noise, so you can keep your machines working. (and *** very easy backup too) So, yes, there probably could be cheaper, but the guy spent a lot of time making it working. In my opinion, it is worth every penny. Cheers From cube1 at charter.net Sat Sep 4 10:02:11 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:02:11 -0500 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/4/2021 5:44 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > >> On 4 Sep 2021, at 02:42, Jay Jaeger via cctalk > > wrote: >> >> On 7/14/2021 12:32 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> VT100 to the rescue, the VLC is fine talking to it so now I'm >>> wondering why >>> my old faithful hardware UART in this PC I'm typing on now has let me >>> down. >>> The BlueSCSI appears as 7 devices though, which is usually a >>> termination or >>> ID problem so I now need to dig out an external terminator for the box >>> since it's never had one. The hard drive in there has been good at >>> providing its own TERMPWR which the BlueSCSI should too but I'll play by >>> the rules to test things properly. >>> Cheers, >> >> I think BlueSCSI will only appear as the devices you have image files >> named for on its SD card. > > What I meant was on a SHO DEV I got 7 Quantum Fireballs (DKA0-500, > DKA700), in my VAX days this meant there was either an ID conflict with > another device on the bus or a termination issue. I only had one image > on the sdcard which was ID0 so there weren?t any other devices present, > so it had to be a termination issue. > Or a bug. I don't think that these boards will *provide* terminator power, but I haven't looked at the schematics carefully. If the VAX does provide terminator power, it might not be enough to both do that and power the blue pill. I power mine from the 4 pin molex drive power connector by using a 4 pin molex to Berg connector adapter to match the connector on the one on the BlueSCSI board. BTW, a caveat: There is a "Black Pill" version from Tech By Androda out there. The blue.scsi site that points to it indicates that BlueSCSI is open source (which it is), but THAT one, the one I bought from Tech By Androda IS NOT OPEN SOURCE. He won't provide the code. Not even binaries on his web site. (There IS a warning about that on the page for the Black Pill (F4) version.) Also, I see that version 1.0c of the open source Blue Pill version has a fix that involves TERMPOWER: "Fixed issue with external power and TERMPOWER". JRJ From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Sep 4 10:32:26 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 08:32:26 -0700 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49192991-3A00-4E54-9FAC-9790F355B625@avanthar.com> > On Sep 4, 2021, at 6:34 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-09-04 08:30, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > >> "Digital Diggings" couldn't get BlueSCSI to work on either VAX or Alpha: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEh7owqHxU&t=36s. >> That's a pity as it's much cheaper than SCSI2SD. > > OK guys, but please compare that to costs for SCSI drives (please 6 of > them, as you have partitions on the SDCARD), cost of SCSI controllers > (QBUS/UNIBUS anyone?), or even IDE drives. > > So this is whining on a pretty high level, and there is no noise, so you > can keep your machines working. (and *** very easy backup too) > > So, yes, there probably could be cheaper, but the guy spent a lot of > time making it working. > > In my opinion, it is worth every penny. > > Cheers I agree, it?s worth it. I ended up buying 6 of them while on my Sabbatical, earlier this year, though I only had time to install two of them. It means that my VAXstation 4000/VLC which was too noisy to use in the house is usable, and my VAXstation 4000/90 is almost silent. I put one SCSI2SD in both of those. I plan to put 2 in my DECnet Area router (a VAXstation 4000/60), and 2 in one of my AlphaStations (probably an AlphaStation 200 4/233, since it only has Narrow SCSI). With the Area router, it will be replacing the disks in a BA350 shelf in my main rack, and just one board will offer a lot more space than the 2GB and 4GB drives I?m using. I wish there was a U2W SCSI option for my Compaq XP1000/667 AlphaStation. There is a definite need for a replacement for faster drives, and systems that need a drive with an SCA interface (I?d also love one for my SGI O2?s). Eventually I want to get it so I can run a BA23 or BA123 with a PDP-11, and a SCSI2SD board. My main PDP-11/73 is a BA123 with removable SCSI HD?s (using the old PC trays from the late 90?s), and that lets me run all the OS?s I have installed. A SCSI2SD would be a cleaner solution. Is there any good solution for backing up an SD card from a SCSI2SD board? I like how my emulated systems are backed up nightly as part of the backups setup for my VMware cluster. Really I?m a huge fan of replacing floppies or HD?s with SD cards. I did that YEARS ago with my C-64, and last year with my Amiga HW. I look at it this way, what?s one of the key points of failure, disks. This is especially true on floppy based systems. For HD?s, it doesn?t even matter the age of the system. That?s why we have backups. Zane From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Sep 4 10:40:31 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:40:31 -0500 Subject: Capacitors on M8722 Board In-Reply-To: <052d01d7a170$1c9f4cd0$55dde670$@ntlworld.com> References: <052d01d7a170$1c9f4cd0$55dde670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5b0fb4f0-3391-a725-ff4b-2e57208c7afb@pico-systems.com> On 9/4/21 4:34 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have a PDP 11/24 which I hope to power up soon. The last time it had power > I noticed a bit of a burning smell which I failed to track down. However, I > did notice one capacitor on a memory board has a strange appearance, almost > as if there is some corrosion under the surface, it doesn't seem to be > bulging though, except along the top, but if it is bulging it is very bumpy. > I have a picture of it here: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2021/09/wp_20210904_10_15_28_rich.jpg. > It is marked 47uF 30V, but it is also marked 20v as can be seen in the > picture. > > Voltage is not critical, as long as it is above the supply on that bus.? But, that aluminum electrolytic cap certainly looks like it is ready to fail, possibly catastrophically. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 4 10:45:35 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 08:45:35 -0700 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: <168df4f2-b57e-33e1-2d37-864c8ddd420f@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/21 8:02 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Also, I see that version 1.0c of the open source? Blue Pill version has a fix that involves TERMPOWER: "Fixed issue with external power and > TERMPOWER". there is also a development discord for these little scsi adapters https://discord.gg/kx2Kybx2mk I was on it for a while, but it was too chatty for me to follow From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 4 12:42:17 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:42:17 +0100 Subject: Replacement for Foam Filter for PDP 11/24 Message-ID: <054c01d7a1b4$349e8c30$9ddba490$@ntlworld.com> Another query. The foam filter that sits in the front of my 11/24 CPU is clearly badly degraded and needs to be replaced. What do people replace this kind of stuff with? I guess it mustn't be too fine, this mesh seems quite coarse. https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2021/09/1124-front-panel-2.jpg Thanks Rob From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Sep 4 15:40:40 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:40:40 -0700 Subject: Replacement for Foam Filter for PDP 11/24 In-Reply-To: <054c01d7a1b4$349e8c30$9ddba490$@ntlworld.com> References: <054c01d7a1b4$349e8c30$9ddba490$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <96917FD3-AF25-49CE-A22D-9E36A3AF88A8@fritzm.org> > On Sep 4, 2021, at 10:42 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Another query. The foam filter that sits in the front of my 11/24 CPU is > clearly badly degraded and needs to be replaced. What do people replace this > kind of stuff with? I guess it mustn't be too fine, this mesh seems quite > coarse. Hi Rob, FWIW, I've used 3M Filtrete (?FAPF-UCTF2PAMZ) for this application on an 11/34. It seems I tighter weave than the old foam, but is designed for pretty high airflow and seems to work well. It's about 1/8" thick, slightly compressible, easily cut to size w/ scissors, and adheres well to velcro hook tape. cheers, --FritzM. From matt at 9track.net Sun Sep 5 03:26:04 2021 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:26:04 +0100 Subject: Replacement for Foam Filter for PDP 11/24 In-Reply-To: <054c01d7a1b4$349e8c30$9ddba490$@ntlworld.com> References: <054c01d7a1b4$349e8c30$9ddba490$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <482e884e-9759-20f6-e2c8-7bf5ec7cd3e0@9track.net> On 04/09/2021 18:42, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Another query. The foam filter that sits in the front of my 11/24 CPU is > clearly badly degraded and needs to be replaced. What do people replace this > kind of stuff with? I guess it mustn't be too fine, this mesh seems quite > coarse. > I think the original is something like 30 PPI reticulated foam. Matt From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Sep 5 08:12:33 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:12:33 +0200 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 04, 2021 at 09:34:30AM -0400, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-04 08:30, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> "Digital Diggings" couldn't get BlueSCSI to work on either VAX or Alpha: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEh7owqHxU&t=36s. That's a pity as it's >> much cheaper than SCSI2SD. Apparently not so much cheaper any more, since it's based on the dirt-cheap "Bluepill" SBC which has basically vanished off the market, at least on this side of the Pond. They seemed to be mainly distributed via AZ-Delivery in Germany, who are out of stock. I guess they're waiting for the same boat from China that everybody else is. The UK-based vendor of the BlueSCSI has had to hike the price to cover the cost of getting hold of the remaining stock of Bluepills, which must be even trickier than if they were here in the EU where I also can't just click a "buy again" button and have a load fall through the letterbox next-day. The only reason to have ever cared about the Bluepill was that it was so cheap that one could gloss over its major design flaws which made it unsuitable for a lot of projects. Now we have the Raspberry Pi Pico which is also still rather cheap, can actually be bought, and is much more powerful and much less buggy, the Bluepill is fairly moot. > OK guys, but please compare that to costs for SCSI drives (please 6 of > them, as you have partitions on the SDCARD), cost of SCSI controllers > (QBUS/UNIBUS anyone?), or even IDE drives. So this is whining on a pretty > high level, and there is no noise, so you can keep your machines working. > (and *** very easy backup too) So, yes, there probably could be cheaper, > but the guy spent a lot of time making it working. It certainly looks like a more robust product than the BlueSCSI (not least because it's not Bluepill-based), but it appears to only ship from Canada, Australia, or the UK. The Australian distributor only takes PayPal so that's an immediate hard no. The others seem to think that postage charges are a trade secret which will only be revealed after committing to the sale, but they do at least admit that they just throw it into the regular postal sevice and hope for the best. So that's ?30-50 for postage, at least a month's wait if it arrives at all, plus a random courier surcharge due to the sender inevitably screwing up the customs and VAT paperwork (assuming they even bothered). Sod that, I'll make do without. Breaking news for American businesses looking to sell into Europe: the UK has left the EU, British exports have cratered due to red tape, its haulage networks have all but collapsed, and a civil war is brewing which will probably end in a break-up of the Union. You might want to pick a distributor somewhere saner. The people selling both the BlueSCSI and SCSI2SD do need to understand that designing and building a product is only part of the job. If the ordering process is broken, and fulfilment is slow, expensive, and stressful, this drives away customers no matter how great the product is. If they just want to make a bit on the side to fund their hobby, that's just fine, but perhaps don't play-act at being a manufacturing business with global distribution. I note that the guidance I get from the Dutch tax authorities points out in that matter-of-fact Dutch way that they can tell the difference between a genuine business and a hobby hoping for a tax break. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Sep 5 09:59:46 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:59:46 -0500 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/5/2021 8:12 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Sep 04, 2021 at 09:34:30AM -0400, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> On 2021-09-04 08:30, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >>> "Digital Diggings" couldn't get BlueSCSI to work on either VAX or Alpha: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEh7owqHxU&t=36s. That's a pity as it's >>> much cheaper than SCSI2SD. > > Apparently not so much cheaper any more, since it's based on the dirt-cheap > "Bluepill" SBC which has basically vanished off the market, at least on this > side of the Pond. They seemed to be mainly distributed via AZ-Delivery in > Germany, who are out of stock. I guess they're waiting for the same boat > from China that everybody else is. > There is work going on BlueSCSI for the "Black Pill", using the F4 variant of the STM32, which hopefully will be more available once the current semi crunch subsides (but that might take 6-12 months). The current implementation for the "Black Pill" is, however NOT OPEN SOURCE at this point in time, though I have heard that there will be an F4 variant that will be open source in the future. JRJ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 5 11:00:23 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:00:23 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have the H9642 Enclosure Maintenance Manual EK-187AA-MG In-Reply-To: <054201d7a190$812977a0$837c66e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <054201d7a190$812977a0$837c66e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 04/09/2021 14:26, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have looked on Manx and on Bitsavers and I don't see it there. > Do you need the H9642 specifically or is it just the embedded MicroVAX? 3600 that you want to know about? If so then EK-189AA-MG-001 will possibly do. It's really for the BA213 but does mention the H9644. Except that's not quite what you want, I misremembered the number. The appendix does list the manual you want, so I presume it must be mentioned somewhere, just I didn't see it. There are a bunch of enclosure manuals on Tim Shoppa's site: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/scandocs.trailing-edge.com/ (they've presumably moved at some point as Manx currently points to the wrong place). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From gcnielson at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 15:24:17 2021 From: gcnielson at yahoo.com (Gabriel Nielson) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:24:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 References: <597202494.3133736.1630873457766.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <597202494.3133736.1630873457766@mail.yahoo.com> I was digging through the internet and found a post where a 3803 was posted for sale, would there happen to still be one available?Preferably a model 2 Thanks,gcnielson at yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 5 16:55:03 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:55:03 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: <597202494.3133736.1630873457766@mail.yahoo.com> References: <597202494.3133736.1630873457766.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <597202494.3133736.1630873457766@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/5/21 1:24 PM, Gabriel Nielson via cctalk wrote: > I was digging through the internet and found a post where a 3803 was posted for sale, would there happen to still be one available?Preferably a model 2 > Thanks,gcnielson at yahoo.com > Aside from a couple of sales of 3420+3803 drives about 5-6 years ago, about the only current sale is just the panel: ttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153912466858?hash=item23d5e5ddaa:g:P8QAAOSw86ZeqMBo --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 5 17:17:28 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:17:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: <597202494.3133736.1630873457766.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <597202494.3133736.1630873457766@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c30387c-a235-75d9-fa5d-b4f46b0b0aea@sydex.com> On 9/5/21 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/5/21 1:24 PM, Gabriel Nielson via cctalk wrote: >> I was digging through the internet and found a post where a 3803 was posted for sale, would there happen to still be one available?Preferably a model 2 >> Thanks,gcnielson at yahoo.com >> > > Aside from a couple of sales of 3420+3803 drives about 5-6 years ago, > about the only current sale is just the panel: > > ttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153912466858?hash=item23d5e5ddaa:g:P8QAAOSw86ZeqMBo > Edit: For that 5-6 year old combo, the seller was Sellam and his asking price was $3K. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Sep 5 17:35:35 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:35:35 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: <597202494.3133736.1630873457766.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <597202494.3133736.1630873457766@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/5/2021 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/5/21 1:24 PM, Gabriel Nielson via cctalk wrote: >> I was digging through the internet and found a post where a 3803 was posted for sale, would there happen to still be one available?Preferably a model 2 >> Thanks,gcnielson at yahoo.com >> > Aside from a couple of sales of 3420+3803 drives about 5-6 years ago, > about the only current sale is just the panel: > > ttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153912466858?hash=item23d5e5ddaa:g:P8QAAOSw86ZeqMBo > > --Chuck There's a transformer about 2' on a side and the unit weight around 800 or 900#.? Make sure it's close, or the freight will exceed the cost, even @ Sellam's asking price. I sold one to a couple of guys in northern california some time ago.? I never heard whether they got the tape or disk systems running or not. thanks Jim From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 05:36:21 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 03:36:21 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: <9c30387c-a235-75d9-fa5d-b4f46b0b0aea@sydex.com> References: <9c30387c-a235-75d9-fa5d-b4f46b0b0aea@sydex.com> Message-ID: I got both the 3420s and the 3808 from Sellam. On the restoration docket, now with a better chance thanks to the ALDs which I recently got from Gabriel himself. I scanned my 3420 ALDs and gave them to Gabriel in return. Biggest annoyance, besides humongous size and weight, is the amount of 3 phase power required. Marc > On Sep 5, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 9/5/21 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 9/5/21 1:24 PM, Gabriel Nielson via cctalk wrote: >>> I was digging through the internet and found a post where a 3803 was posted for sale, would there happen to still be one available?Preferably a model 2 >>> Thanks,gcnielson at yahoo.com >>> >> >> Aside from a couple of sales of 3420+3803 drives about 5-6 years ago, >> about the only current sale is just the panel: >> >> ttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153912466858?hash=item23d5e5ddaa:g:P8QAAOSw86ZeqMBo >> > > Edit: For that 5-6 year old combo, the seller was Sellam and his asking > price was $3K. > > --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 06:23:20 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:23:20 +0100 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: <9c30387c-a235-75d9-fa5d-b4f46b0b0aea@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e8401d7a311$994f46c0$cbedd440$@gmail.com> I have seen issues with 3803s in an IBM datacentres with flashover on the PSU PCB I believe due to water absorption into the PCB material, which I believe are of the paper type. The flames were impressive, as was the knowledge of curses from my manager. I don't know if this issue is common, but just thought I would mention it in case the devices in question had been stored in damp conditions. I should also point out that at the time I was only a Systems Programmer borrowing the machine...... Dave Wade > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Curious Marc via > cctalk > Sent: 06 September 2021 11:36 > To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for an IBM 3803 > > I got both the 3420s and the 3808 from Sellam. On the restoration docket, > now with a better chance thanks to the ALDs which I recently got from > Gabriel himself. I scanned my 3420 ALDs and gave them to Gabriel in return. > Biggest annoyance, besides humongous size and weight, is the amount of 3 > phase power required. > Marc > > > On Sep 5, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ?On 9/5/21 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >>> On 9/5/21 1:24 PM, Gabriel Nielson via cctalk wrote: > >>> I was digging through the internet and found a post where a 3803 was > >>> posted for sale, would there happen to still be one > >>> available?Preferably a model 2 Thanks,gcnielson at yahoo.com > >>> > >> > >> Aside from a couple of sales of 3420+3803 drives about 5-6 years ago, > >> about the only current sale is just the panel: > >> > >> > ttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153912466858?hash=item23d5e5ddaa:g:P8QAA > OSw > >> 86ZeqMBo > >> > > > > Edit: For that 5-6 year old combo, the seller was Sellam and his > > asking price was $3K. > > > > --Chuck From pat at vax11.net Mon Sep 6 08:50:02 2021 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:50:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: <9c30387c-a235-75d9-fa5d-b4f46b0b0aea@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2021, 06:36 Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > I got both the 3420s and the 3808 from Sellam. On the restoration docket, > now with a better chance thanks to the ALDs which I recently got from > Gabriel himself. I scanned my 3420 ALDs and gave them to Gabriel in return. > Biggest annoyance, besides humongous size and weight, is the amount of 3 > phase power required. > >From what I remember, the only thing that requires 3 phase in the whole system is the blower motor in the 3420 drives. The rest are powered off of single phase 200-240VAC. The large 3 phase input on it 3803 is likely overkill for even a controller and full string of 8 drives. It's easier to oversize things and have a 3x safety margin, then deal with running close to the limits and risk any problems from poorly installed site wiring. Pat > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 09:20:25 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 10:20:25 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: <9c30387c-a235-75d9-fa5d-b4f46b0b0aea@sydex.com> Message-ID: > The large 3 phase input on it 3803 is likely overkill for even a controller > and full string of 8 drives. It's easier to oversize things and have a 3x > safety margin, then deal with running close to the limits and risk any > problems from poorly installed site wiring. It is overkill, but a full string can really punish the circuit breaker with enormous current surges. Better to overdo it with a breaker that can handle the spike of all eight 3420s deciding to do some reversing within a few seconds of each other. Even a simple setup with a 3803 and a single 3420 will create large surges that a household circuit may not like much. -- Will From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Mon Sep 6 09:23:10 2021 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?utf-8?Q?St=C3=BCber?=) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 16:23:10 +0200 Subject: Lecture: The evolution of TECO =?utf-8?Q?a?= =?utf-8?B?bmQgRU1BQ1Mg4oCT?= hands-on demo, 2021-09-11, 19:00 References: <20210906142310.GA3027.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: <20210906142310.GA3027@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Hi all, you're invited to the Update computer club[0] public lecture series "Updateringar"[1]! When: 2021-09-11, 19:00 CEST Where: https://bbb.cryptoparty.se/b/upd-0mo-m2u-aq8 The evolution of TECO and EMACS ? hands-on demo The Emacs text editor has long been an important tool among programmers, and has a long and rich history. I will talk about the development of the TECO and Emacs line of editors throughout history. The emphasis is on practical demonstration of programs found through software archaeology. True to form, the bulk of the presentation will be broadcast using ancient technology. Lars Brinkhoff (ICtech) The lecture is free and open to everyone. Upcoming: 2021-10-09, 19:00: Update Computer Club: History and not-so-certain future. Pontus Pihlgren (Update) Don't want to miss upcoming events? Subscribe to our low-traffic announcement list by sending a mail with the body "subscribe announce" to majordomo at update.uu.se! Hope to see you there, Anke [0] https://www.update.uu.se/index_eng.html [1] https://www.update.uu.se/wiki/doku.php/projekt:updateringar From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 21:17:14 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 21:17:14 -0500 Subject: Identifying LSI Logic IC Message-ID: Can anyone identify this IC? https://imgur.com/a/CU7Cn8z This is from an Omega VLF receiver. I don't see many custom parts within this unit, but perhaps this is one? Thanks, Kyle From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 16:24:12 2021 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 23:24:12 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/40 for sale, Paris, France Message-ID: Hi, If you're interested, contact me directly. It was in my apartment for years, I had to move it to the garage, and I don't like the idea of leaving it there for the winter. It's a PDP11/40 in a DEC rack. It was in working condition when I got it, only the memory card had a problem (1 capacitor has been ripped off), but reading/writing from/to the registers was working. No need to say that you have to arrange shipping ! Thanks, -- St?phane From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Sep 7 11:21:13 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:21:13 -0500 Subject: Identifying LSI Logic IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d4803a2-889a-3985-8038-77445465dac1@pico-systems.com> On 9/6/21 9:17 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone identify this IC? > > https://imgur.com/a/CU7Cn8z > > This is from an Omega VLF receiver. I don't see many custom parts within > this unit, but perhaps this is one? > LSI Logic made custom ICs using a mask-programmable gate array technology. Jon From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 11:56:20 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 00:56:20 +0800 Subject: Data General NOVA 2/10 Message-ID: I just started working on a Data General NOVA 2/10 which is in quite reasonable cosmetic condition, but has a number of problems. The system comes with 8 kwords plus 16 kwords of core boards and a "Cassette I/O" board and the CPU board. After reforming the "man sized" caps and verified the power rails I took a leap of faith and plugged in the CPU and the 16 kword core board. I managed to deposit a few bit patterns and read back mostly what I deposited. After a few power cycles I could no longer deposit values and read back what I deposited. I also noticed that a 30 Ohm resistor rated at 3W which previously got quite warm now stayed cold. That PCB area around that resistor has cooked in the past and has changed colour - not dramatic, but it obviously got quite hot in the past. Unfortunately I didn't find a good schematic specifically for the Nova 2/10. There is one for the Nova 2/4 up on Bitsavers, but it is hard to read and does not cover the NOVA 2/10 which is not quite the same as the NOVA 2/4. For example the power supply is completely different. Until now I have been spoiled with quite decent DEC PDP-8/e documentation and would be surprised if Data General did not provide a similar level and quality of documentation. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place. Thanks Tom Hunter From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 7 12:17:19 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:17:19 -0700 Subject: Data General NOVA 2/10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f82e47b-7336-323c-7fac-cf974c4b87e0@bitsavers.org> On 9/7/21 9:56 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Until now I have been spoiled with quite decent DEC PDP-8/e documentation > and would be surprised if Data General did not provide a similar level and > quality of documentation. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place. Bruce Ray at Wild Hare is the guy to talk to. From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Sep 7 16:52:25 2021 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:52:25 -0600 Subject: Data General NOVA 2/10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a9a99e0-4d52-79cd-84af-cdb8bcf289a1@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Tom - Information provided to you off-list... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 9/7/2021 10:56 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I just started working on a Data General NOVA 2/10 which is in quite > reasonable cosmetic condition, but has a number of problems. > > The system comes with 8 kwords plus 16 kwords of core boards and a > "Cassette I/O" board and the CPU board. > > After reforming the "man sized" caps and verified the power rails I took a > leap of faith and plugged in the CPU and the 16 kword core board. I managed > to deposit a few bit patterns and read back mostly what I deposited. After > a few power cycles I could no longer deposit values and read back what I > deposited. I also noticed that a 30 Ohm resistor rated at 3W which > previously got quite warm now stayed cold. That PCB area around that > resistor has cooked in the past and has changed colour - not dramatic, but > it obviously got quite hot in the past. > > Unfortunately I didn't find a good schematic specifically for the Nova > 2/10. There is one for the Nova 2/4 up on Bitsavers, but it is hard to read > and does not cover the NOVA 2/10 which is not quite the same as the NOVA > 2/4. For example the power supply is completely different. > > Until now I have been spoiled with quite decent DEC PDP-8/e documentation > and would be surprised if Data General did not provide a similar level and > quality of documentation. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place. > > Thanks > Tom Hunter > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Sep 7 16:48:51 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:48:51 -0500 Subject: FTGH: 19" Intergraph Monitors Message-ID: <1f4a7b0f-f695-2752-d997-9b7bb5fe6816@charter.net> I have an Interpro 2020 and a couple of HUGE 19" inch Intergraph monitors. Frankly they are pretty lousy (fuzzy, not all that luminescent), heavy and awkward. Free to a Good Home - cables included. But I won't ship them, though one could pay someone to crate them up and ship them. I really don't want them around, and so I just converted my Interpro 2020 to use LCD flatpanels with a DB5w5 to VGA cable. You can read more about my new cable setup for this machine, and see one of the old monitors, at: https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/unix-workstations/#interpro2020 JRJ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 01:31:42 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 23:31:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3085B4EE-6599-4C2A-AC34-873C4D9138A6@gmail.com> Yes, we are hoping that we can power the blower with 3 phase and the rest directly from the 240V electric car circuit? Not sure if that can be rewired for that. Marc > On Sep 6, 2021, at 6:50 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > ? >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2021, 06:36 Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > >> I got both the 3420s and the 3808 from Sellam. On the restoration docket, now with a better chance thanks to the ALDs which I recently got from Gabriel himself. I scanned my 3420 ALDs and gave them to Gabriel in return. Biggest annoyance, besides humongous size and weight, is the amount of 3 phase power required. > > > From what I remember, the only thing that requires 3 phase in the whole system is the blower motor in the 3420 drives. The rest are powered off of single phase 200-240VAC. > > The large 3 phase input on it 3803 is likely overkill for even a controller and full string of 8 drives. It's easier to oversize things and have a 3x safety margin, then deal with running close to the limits and risk any problems from poorly installed site wiring. > > Pat > >> From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 8 10:25:38 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:25:38 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: <3085B4EE-6599-4C2A-AC34-873C4D9138A6@gmail.com> References: <3085B4EE-6599-4C2A-AC34-873C4D9138A6@gmail.com> Message-ID: As long as you don't need the full blower capacity, you can probably do the 3-phase-to-single-phase trick by using a capacitor from the third lead to either (which one will determine rotation direction) of the two other leads and feeding those leads with single-phase. It's done very often here with 3-phase shop equipment acquired by residential hobbyists. For motors, it's not critical, but it's not something that you'd want to do for electronics--the phase distortion rules that out. --Chuck On 9/7/21 11:31 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > Yes, we are hoping that we can power the ?blower with 3 phase and the > rest directly from the 240V electric car circuit? Not sure if that can > be rewired for that. > Marc > >> On Sep 6, 2021, at 6:50 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >> ? >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2021, 06:36 Curious Marc via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> I got both the 3420s and the 3808 from Sellam. On the restoration >> docket, now with a better chance thanks to the ALDs which I >> recently got from Gabriel himself. I scanned my 3420 ALDs and gave >> them to Gabriel in return. Biggest annoyance, besides humongous >> size and weight, is the amount of 3 phase power required. >> >> >> From what I remember, the only thing that requires 3 phase in the >> whole system is the blower motor in the 3420 drives. The rest are >> powered off of single phase 200-240VAC. >> >> The large 3 phase input on it 3803 is likely overkill for even a >> controller and full string of 8 drives. It's easier to oversize things >> and have a 3x safety margin, then deal with running close to the >> limits and risk any problems from poorly installed site wiring. >> >> Pat >> >> -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From pat at vax11.net Wed Sep 8 10:45:02 2021 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:45:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: <3085B4EE-6599-4C2A-AC34-873C4D9138A6@gmail.com> Message-ID: The easiest thing to do is to pick up some cheap VFDs which will take 1ph in and put out 3ph to run the blower motor. Patrick Finnegan On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, 11:34 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > As long as you don't need the full blower capacity, you can probably do > the 3-phase-to-single-phase trick by using a capacitor from the third > lead to either (which one will determine rotation direction) of the two > other leads and feeding those leads with single-phase. It's done very > often here with 3-phase shop equipment acquired by residential > hobbyists. For motors, it's not critical, but it's not something that > you'd want to do for electronics--the phase distortion rules that out. > > --Chuck > > > > > On 9/7/21 11:31 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Yes, we are hoping that we can power the blower with 3 phase and the > > rest directly from the 240V electric car circuit? Not sure if that can > > be rewired for that. > > Marc > > > >> On Sep 6, 2021, at 6:50 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> > >> ? > >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2021, 06:36 Curious Marc via cctalk > >> > wrote: > >> > >> I got both the 3420s and the 3808 from Sellam. On the restoration > >> docket, now with a better chance thanks to the ALDs which I > >> recently got from Gabriel himself. I scanned my 3420 ALDs and gave > >> them to Gabriel in return. Biggest annoyance, besides humongous > >> size and weight, is the amount of 3 phase power required. > >> > >> > >> From what I remember, the only thing that requires 3 phase in the > >> whole system is the blower motor in the 3420 drives. The rest are > >> powered off of single phase 200-240VAC. > >> > >> The large 3 phase input on it 3803 is likely overkill for even a > >> controller and full string of 8 drives. It's easier to oversize things > >> and have a 3x safety margin, then deal with running close to the > >> limits and risk any problems from poorly installed site wiring. > >> > >> Pat > >> > >> > > > -- > --Chuck > > Sent from my digital computer > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 00:20:48 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 22:20:48 -0700 Subject: Looking for an IBM 3803 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <513743C8-153C-48BF-A821-9B44C0D89F20@gmail.com> Excellent idea! I had not thought about it. I?ll look into it. Marc > On Sep 8, 2021, at 8:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > As long as you don't need the full blower capacity, you can probably do > the 3-phase-to-single-phase trick by using a capacitor from the third > lead to either (which one will determine rotation direction) of the two > other leads and feeding those leads with single-phase. It's done very > often here with 3-phase shop equipment acquired by residential > hobbyists. For motors, it's not critical, but it's not something that > you'd want to do for electronics--the phase distortion rules that out. > > --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 16:08:33 2021 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:08:33 -0500 Subject: Museum of pinball goes to auction this weekend Message-ID: Incase anyone hadn't heard or has interest, a lot of arcades will be on the market for bidding this weekend. Sad but inevitable. Hopefully it's not all reseller prices and can get into the hands of some other museums and collectors. https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/arcade-games-auction-museum-of-pinball/2687397/ From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Sep 9 19:46:38 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:46:38 -0700 Subject: Museum of pinball goes to auction this weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82984550-CB51-449F-A4DB-EB2BCA63A40E@avanthar.com> On Sep 9, 2021, at 2:08 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > Incase anyone hadn't heard or has interest, a lot of arcades will be on the > market for bidding this weekend. Sad but inevitable. Hopefully it's not all > reseller prices and can get into the hands of some other museums and > collectors. > > https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/arcade-games-auction-museum-of-pinball/2687397/ Ouch, I would have loved to have visited that museum. Looking through the auction catalog, I can easily see machines I?d be tempted to bid on. I was really surprised to see 4 different of the 1971 ?Computer Space? machines. I?d love to see one of those in person. Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Sep 9 20:30:31 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 21:30:31 -0400 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where Message-ID: Quick question: I've been cleaning out and repairing an HP5061 supply for a 1000 computer. However I didn't take a picture of the 4 boards when I pulled them and I want to make sure they go in the right places. From the manual (page 99 of 92851-90001_Sections-IXB_Mar-1981.pdf) the slots are labeled A6-J1 through A6-J5. Does this mean that: J1 is the J5 is the control board (A3A5) J4 is a jumper board for +12 adjustments J3 is unused (battery backup boards) J2 is the inverter board (A3A2) J1 is the pre-regulator board (A3A1) Seems right but I know how bad things can go :-) Thanks! C From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 00:48:37 2021 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:48:37 -0500 Subject: vcfmw Message-ID: Due to health problems I won't be able to attend vcfmw this year. I live just outside Champaign, IL, I-57 & I-74, about 2 hours south of I-80, and 2 hours west of INDY. If anyone is interested in l buying anything I should be home a few days before, during and after WCFMW. Please email me with the time and day you would like to stop, and what you are interested in seeing/buying. I hoped to hang on to most things for a while, but I'm afraid I'm going to start letting loose more and more. Thanks, Paul I'm located just outside Champaign, IL, I-57 & I-74 From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 11:21:39 2021 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Flo Williams) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:21:39 +0100 Subject: Scanning Suggestions (Bookmarks & Colour) In-Reply-To: <194ea856-b3a5-3710-55fd-172366fd82b7@ntlworld.com> References: <20210902205120.7b56cdea@chopoc.localdomain> <194ea856-b3a5-3710-55fd-172366fd82b7@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20210910172139.3220e852@chopoc.localdomain> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 10:10:50 +0100 Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 02/09/2021 20:51, Paul Flo Williams via cctalk wrote: > > > > I haven't finished writing this up, but my workflow tends to be to > > produce a Group4 TIFF from the colour scan by simple thresholding > > (or first dropping the other colours to white, if they are quite > > dark), and then produce all the other separations by dropping black > > out, converting your spot colour to black and then thresholding. > > This way you get two or more images: > > > > 1) PNG(s) containing pixels that are all either white or your spot > > colour, > > 2) a G4 TIFF for the black and white layer. > > As I'm in the process of scanning manuals right now, and I'd like to > preserve the colour, I'm looking forward to the write up. https://hisdeedsaredust.com/2021/09/10/colour-separations-with-graphicsmagick.html You're welcome to send me any sample scans of your RSX manuals, Antonio, because I'd like to see the results with other colours. I've been processing light blue, green and brown separations on other manuals and doing a lot of coding, generalising my toolchain at the moment and filing issues with GraphicsMagick on the way. (Incidentally, I've improved that PDF from a week ago to add bookmarks and proper page labels. Link in article; much more needing to be written.) Regards, Paul From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Sep 10 11:43:12 2021 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 02:43:12 +1000 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20210911024312.016330a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Here are some disassembly pics of a HP 5061-6615 power supply. http://everist.org/pics/hp1000_ps/5061-6615.zip 2.9M Details: HP 1000 Model 2113E SN 2340A03701 OPT 004 014 power supply Model 5061-6615 SN 2340 Not the exact same PS as yours, but it might help? My problem is I haven't been able to find a manual and schematics for that apparently late model supply. Though last time I looked was years ago. The lack of a manual/schematics froze that restoration project. Can anyone suggest where I might find a copy? PDF, or I'd pay for an original paper copy. (To use, and also ensure it's scanned in high quality.) Guy At 09:30 PM 9/09/2021 -0400, you wrote: >Quick question: I've been cleaning out and repairing an HP5061 supply >for a 1000 computer. However I didn't take a picture of the 4 boards >when I pulled them and I want to make sure they go in the right places. > > From the manual (page 99 of 92851-90001_Sections-IXB_Mar-1981.pdf) the >slots are labeled A6-J1 through A6-J5. Does this mean that: > >J1 is the >J5 is the control board (A3A5) >J4 is a jumper board for +12 adjustments >J3 is unused (battery backup boards) >J2 is the inverter board (A3A2) >J1 is the pre-regulator board (A3A1) > >Seems right but I know how bad things can go :-) > >Thanks! >C > From tingox at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 11:34:04 2021 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:34:04 +0200 Subject: FYI: NDWiki - planned downtime Message-ID: Bitraf[1] is moving, and the NDwiki[2] server moves with it. The move starts Saturday September 11th 2021 at 12:00 hours local time, and is expected to be completed sometime before midnight. References: 1) https://bitraf.no/ 2) http://www.ndwiki.org/ -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 13:35:21 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:35:21 -0400 Subject: Scanning Suggestions (Bookmarks & Colour) In-Reply-To: <20210910172139.3220e852@chopoc.localdomain> References: <20210902205120.7b56cdea@chopoc.localdomain> <194ea856-b3a5-3710-55fd-172366fd82b7@ntlworld.com> <20210910172139.3220e852@chopoc.localdomain> Message-ID: > On Sep 10, 2021, at 12:21 PM, Paul Flo Williams via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > https://hisdeedsaredust.com/2021/09/10/colour-separations-with-graphicsmagick.html Paul, You said "At the moment, I?ve been picking the colour by choosing an image with a large area of blue, pulling it into Gimp and successively resampling down until I?ve got a tiny image on which I use the colour dropper tool.". There's a simpler way. The GIMP color dropper has a "radius" setting, which you can set to be however big a region you want it to sample. It will use the average of that region. By the way, I tried to send an off-list reply to you; that was rejected by some dumb outfit called Spamhouse SBL: Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550-X-AAISP-blacklisted: 2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:42 listed in Spamhaus SBL Bizarre message because it doesn't appear in the mail routing of the rejected message, but it maps back to one of the comcast.net mail servers. Does this mean you have a mail filter that rejects everything from comcast.net customers? I remember nonsense like that back in the 1990s, but I didn't realize there were still any left that perpetrate such absurd notions. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Sep 10 22:41:58 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 23:41:58 -0400 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20210911024312.016330a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20210911024312.016330a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <57193cc8-546a-33eb-605b-ca7117ba2703@alembic.crystel.com> Hi Guy! Thanks for the post and interesting. No it's not quite the exact power supply but close. However.... Are you *sure* those cards are in the right slots? Reason I am asking: When I look at the HP docs they label the Pre-regulator board as A3A1. A3A1 also has the red LED. The inverter board (the one with the transistors and transformers) is A3A2. Likewise the battery charge boards are A3A3, A3A4, and the control board at the end is A3A5. The slots are labeled 1-5 with 1 being closest to the power cord and 5 being on the output end. A3A5 will only fit in slot 5, and A3A4 has the 12 volt trim pot that is accessible outside the supply by a cut-out so it has to be in slot 4. Slot 3 is not used on my unit because I don't have the battery backup circuits. However in your picture slot 2 has the LED preregulator board and slot 1 has the one with the transistors and transformers (inverter). So either your picture has the parts backwards or someone at HP should go to hell for exceptionally bad numbering. Does your supply work? C On 9/10/2021 12:43 PM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > Here are some disassembly pics of a HP 5061-6615 power supply. > > http://everist.org/pics/hp1000_ps/5061-6615.zip 2.9M > > Details: > HP 1000 Model 2113E SN 2340A03701 OPT 004 014 > power supply Model 5061-6615 SN 2340 > > Not the exact same PS as yours, but it might help? > > My problem is I haven't been able to find a manual and schematics for that > apparently late model supply. Though last time I looked was years ago. > The lack of a manual/schematics froze that restoration project. > Can anyone suggest where I might find a copy? > PDF, or I'd pay for an original paper copy. (To use, and also ensure it's > scanned in high quality.) > > Guy > > > > > At 09:30 PM 9/09/2021 -0400, you wrote: >> Quick question: I've been cleaning out and repairing an HP5061 supply >> for a 1000 computer. However I didn't take a picture of the 4 boards >> when I pulled them and I want to make sure they go in the right places. >> >> From the manual (page 99 of 92851-90001_Sections-IXB_Mar-1981.pdf) the >> slots are labeled A6-J1 through A6-J5. Does this mean that: >> >> J1 is the >> J5 is the control board (A3A5) >> J4 is a jumper board for +12 adjustments >> J3 is unused (battery backup boards) >> J2 is the inverter board (A3A2) >> J1 is the pre-regulator board (A3A1) >> >> Seems right but I know how bad things can go :-) >> >> Thanks! >> C >> From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Sep 10 22:47:13 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 23:47:13 -0400 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: <57193cc8-546a-33eb-605b-ca7117ba2703@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20210911024312.016330a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <57193cc8-546a-33eb-605b-ca7117ba2703@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <5bd5a336-2265-ba13-91d1-18e53266f3b3@alembic.crystel.com> Further review: Looking at photo IMG_6081.jpg it shows the layouts of the boards. Specifically A1 is the pre-regulator board pn 5061-3457 which is the one with the caps and A2 is Inverter board PN 5061-3454. I think if your PS doesn't work one problem is these boards are backwards. Don't know if that will blow up your supply but interesting to note... Hm.... From what I can see it looks like the 120 goes into a transformer on the bulkhead and is stepped down to 24 volts DC which then feeds "stuff". I'll start there and see if I get 24dc at the first stage, which should then be filtered by the caps and sent on to the various regulators. C On 9/10/2021 11:41 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hi Guy! > > Thanks for the post and interesting. No it's not quite the exact power > supply but close. However.... > > Are you *sure* those cards are in the right slots? > > Reason I am asking: When I look at the HP docs they label the > Pre-regulator board as A3A1. A3A1 also has the red LED. The inverter > board (the one with the transistors and transformers) is A3A2. Likewise > the battery charge boards are A3A3, A3A4, and the control board at the > end is A3A5. > > The slots are labeled 1-5 with 1 being closest to the power cord and 5 > being on the output end. A3A5 will only fit in slot 5, and A3A4 has the > 12 volt trim pot that is accessible outside the supply by a cut-out so > it has to be in slot 4. Slot 3 is not used on my unit because I don't > have the battery backup circuits. > > However in your picture slot 2 has the LED preregulator board and slot 1 > has the one with the transistors and transformers (inverter). So either > your picture has the parts backwards or someone at HP should go to hell > for exceptionally bad numbering. > > Does your supply work? > > C > > On 9/10/2021 12:43 PM, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> Here are some disassembly pics of a HP 5061-6615 power supply. >> >> ?? http://everist.org/pics/hp1000_ps/5061-6615.zip???? 2.9M >> >> Details: >> HP 1000 Model 2113E? SN 2340A03701? OPT 004? 014 >> power supply? Model 5061-6615??? SN 2340 >> >> Not the exact same PS as yours, but it might help? >> >> My problem is I haven't been able to find a manual and schematics for >> that >> apparently late model supply. Though last time I looked was years ago. >> The lack of a manual/schematics froze that restoration project. >> Can anyone suggest where I might find a copy? >> PDF, or I'd pay for an original paper copy. (To use, and also ensure it's >> scanned in high quality.) >> >> Guy >> >> >> >> >> At 09:30 PM 9/09/2021 -0400, you wrote: >>> Quick question: I've been cleaning out and repairing an HP5061 supply >>> for a 1000 computer. However I didn't take a picture of the 4 boards >>> when I pulled them and I want to make sure they go in the right places. >>> >>> ?From the manual (page 99 of 92851-90001_Sections-IXB_Mar-1981.pdf) the >>> slots are labeled A6-J1 through A6-J5. Does this mean that: >>> >>> J1 is the >>> J5 is the control board (A3A5) >>> J4 is a jumper board for +12 adjustments >>> J3 is unused (battery backup boards) >>> J2 is the inverter board (A3A2) >>> J1 is the pre-regulator board (A3A1) >>> >>> Seems right but I know how bad things can go :-) >>> >>> Thanks! >>> C >>> From mnealey at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 14:50:17 2021 From: mnealey at gmail.com (Mike Nealey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:50:17 -0500 Subject: Data General Terminal Question Message-ID: <1935A7E6-CC43-4BB2-AC8F-7FCCE23641CD@gmail.com> Hello all, I have a Data General Model 5220 MT terminal I picked up recently. Sadly, no keyboard. I am trying to find out if the terminal will use a standard AT keyboard (based on the connector) or if I need to find a special DG keyboard. Any help is appreciated.. in fact any information about this device is appreciated.. I?m finding nothing about this terminal on the interwebs! Thanks! From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Fri Sep 10 17:06:37 2021 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:06:37 -0600 Subject: Data General Terminal Question In-Reply-To: <1935A7E6-CC43-4BB2-AC8F-7FCCE23641CD@gmail.com> References: <1935A7E6-CC43-4BB2-AC8F-7FCCE23641CD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8465f48f-9391-1e26-aa41-5f459e7f2d45@Wild-Hare.com> I am not aware of any 'standard' Data General CRT terminal with a model number greater than 1400 - but I recall the 52xx model numbers were used for special custom, hand-held wands, scanners and "mini-terminals" that may be connected to a standard DG terminal or keyboard. Just send a picture of the terminal front and back (especially the model and part information plates) to me off-list so I can better help you... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 9/10/2021 1:50 PM, Mike Nealey via cctech wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a Data General Model 5220 MT terminal I picked up recently. Sadly, no keyboard. I am trying to find out if the terminal will use a standard AT keyboard (based on the connector) or if I need to find a special DG keyboard. Any help is appreciated.. in fact any information about this device is appreciated.. I?m finding nothing about this terminal on the interwebs! > > Thanks! > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Sep 11 07:10:47 2021 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 22:10:47 +1000 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: <57193cc8-546a-33eb-605b-ca7117ba2703@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20210911024312.016330a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20210911024312.016330a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20210911221047.016c0410@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 11:41 PM 10/09/2021 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Guy! > >Thanks for the post and interesting. No it's not quite the exact power >supply but close. However.... > >Are you *sure* those cards are in the right slots? Hmm... I was starting on that system back in Nov 2013. I'm pretty careful about taking photos of stuff as I take it apart. There's 20 minutes time between the photo with the PS cover on, and the next with it off, showing the boards in place. My memory of that long ago is faded, but I think that 20 minutes was mostly spent looking at the mains voltage selector jumpers, and finding that whoever had originally converted it to 240V had very nicely saved the now unused jumpers in a small plastic bag shoved down between the small transformer and the big blue electro. This was the first time I'd ever opened the machine, let alone extracted and opened the PS. So I am _quite_sure_ the boards are as they were when I got the machine. Its history - I'd rescued it from a junkyard and imminent destruction. It was complete with many I/O cards, two HP tape drives, original HP green racks, but no hard disks. It had been part of a larger system, with no information about its operational condition. Anyway I'd just assumed it was 'previously working, left idle for years.' Then I'd stored it for some more years, untried. Too busy with work, family, etc. Finally got to it. Story: http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm Where I got to, was quickly attempting to run the power supply by itself, to verify voltages before reconnecting to the system. It didn't do anything sensible, and I'd assumed this was something to do with the PWR CONT IN and BATT INPUT connectors not seeing expected states. So I needed a manual. Asking around, I got in contact with Jon Johnston of the HP Museum in Victoria Australia. He was away mountain climbing. Later I tried again, in the meantime he'd returned then gone climbing in Himalayas again. This time he died there. A good friend of mine had also died climbing in the Himalayas, so this project acquired an aversion factor. Lacking a schematic, I'd have to disassemble the supply completely and reverse engineer the circuits. Not too hard but time consuming. And I was having other life problems. So the machine got boxed up and shelved - JUST before I'd have started actually looking into how the PS was supposed to work. When I would have discovered the board swap. Now, looking at the photos, you are right! Those two boards are definitely swapped. I just dug out the machine now and am looking at it. Thinking back to 2013 I recall wondering about the way the TO3 transistor leg socket-pins on the board next to the big blue cap, were pressing into the insulating jacket of the cap. I recall thinking that didn't seem like a good design. I'd also spotted the two cards _could_ be interchanged, and written "Pre-Reg" on the card that is actually the inverter board. Because it was in the pre-reg slot. Monkey-see... Also noted that the lower TO3 heatsink fins were pressing on the wires from P11. So I bent the fins up a little bit. No reason to think these problems could be due to swapped boards! The slots have "PRE-REG BD" and "INVERTER BD" written in the component silkscreen, right next to them, very obviously. Which makes me feel pretty stupid for not realising the swap, given how clearly the boards are a small regulator vs power driver. Also hadn't thought to check the board part numbers against those listed on the power supply cover. (IMG_6081.jpg) Which would have immediately revealed they were swapped. How did that happen? Someone in the last days of the machine's operation, trying to fix a fault, giving up, shoving stuff back together carelessly? Or a deliberate 'make it not work for the auction' thing? (But there was never an auction.) Or did I have a brain fart, take the boards out in that 20 minute gap, and put them back in wrong - violating my own rule about 'photos first'? (I really don't think so.) Anyway... So now I know I powered it up with those boards in swapped slots. Means I _really_ need a schematic. Maaaybe nothing bad happened. But I'd rather check. All the online PS manuals I've found online are for earlier models. My system is a 2113E. Power supply 5061-6615 SN: 2340 The layout of my inverter and pre-reg boards are different than in the earlier manuals. Pic: http://everist.org/pics/hp1000_ps/20210911_9766.jpg I had also found this manual 92851-90001_Sections-IXB-X_Mar-1981.pdf which is for an earlier PS than mine. I think it came from bitsavers. I've copied it to the same folder as the pics above. Does it match your PS? I _still_ don't have time to allocate to tracing out the power supply schematic. Guy > >Reason I am asking: When I look at the HP docs they label the >Pre-regulator board as A3A1. A3A1 also has the red LED. The inverter >board (the one with the transistors and transformers) is A3A2. Likewise >the battery charge boards are A3A3, A3A4, and the control board at the >end is A3A5. > >The slots are labeled 1-5 with 1 being closest to the power cord and 5 >being on the output end. A3A5 will only fit in slot 5, and A3A4 has the >12 volt trim pot that is accessible outside the supply by a cut-out so >it has to be in slot 4. Slot 3 is not used on my unit because I don't >have the battery backup circuits. > >However in your picture slot 2 has the LED preregulator board and slot 1 >has the one with the transistors and transformers (inverter). So either >your picture has the parts backwards or someone at HP should go to hell >for exceptionally bad numbering. > >Does your supply work? > Further review: Looking at photo IMG_6081.jpg it shows the layouts of the boards. Specifically A1 is the pre-regulator board pn 5061-3457 which is the one with the caps and A2 is Inverter board PN 5061-3454. I think if your PS doesn't work one problem is these boards are backwards. Don't know if that will blow up your supply but interesting to note... Hm.... From what I can see it looks like the 120 goes into a transformer on the bulkhead and is stepped down to 24 volts DC which then feeds "stuff". I'll start there and see if I get 24dc at the first stage, which should then be filtered by the caps and sent on to the various regulators. C >> Guy >> >> >> >> >> At 09:30 PM 9/09/2021 -0400, you wrote: >>> Quick question: I've been cleaning out and repairing an HP5061 supply >>> for a 1000 computer. However I didn't take a picture of the 4 boards >>> when I pulled them and I want to make sure they go in the right places. >>> >>> From the manual (page 99 of 92851-90001_Sections-IXB_Mar-1981.pdf) the >>> slots are labeled A6-J1 through A6-J5. Does this mean that: >>> >>> J1 is the >>> J5 is the control board (A3A5) >>> J4 is a jumper board for +12 adjustments >>> J3 is unused (battery backup boards) >>> J2 is the inverter board (A3A2) >>> J1 is the pre-regulator board (A3A1) >>> >>> Seems right but I know how bad things can go :-) >>> >>> Thanks! >>> C >>> > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 11 11:18:28 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 09:18:28 -0700 Subject: Archiving classic computer rubber part information Message-ID: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> I've been having fun this past week trying to get the mechanics of a Canon CX print engine in a LaserWriter restored. The paper pick and separation rollers have turned to goo. This got me thinking that people need to start collecting information on rubber parts, like dimensions, material and durometer values for all of these parts before they fail. I found nothing on line about making replacement parts for these. No one stocks replacement parts for anything older than a Canon SX engine (the generation after the CX). Another problem child are Datamation card readers. It's been 20 years now since the last ones were pulled out of service after the 2000 election and there seems to be a steady stream of people trying to make replacements. I think the CHM 1401 guys replaced theirs a few years ago, don't know if they collected mechanical info or where the repair units were made. I've also heard that Terry of Terry's Rubber Rollers is recovering from Covid, and a frequently used place that refurbished typewriter platens has gone out of business. People have suggested https://www.jjshort.com/Recovered-Rubber-Rollers.php as an alternative. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Sep 11 11:34:39 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 16:34:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Archiving clamighty mouse sysyemssic computer rubber part information In-Reply-To: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> References: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <265349880.550991.1631378079606@mail.yahoo.com> The roller in the HP cartridge tape drives of various models have turned to crap also... I have one that came with an HP 3000 series 37 mighty mouse system? ?thst totally goo-ed a tape........ Any one with similar problem find a replacement roller?? ? ?Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 9:18 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: I've been having fun this past week trying to get the mechanics of a Canon CX print engine in a LaserWriter restored. The paper pick and separation rollers have turned to goo. This got me thinking that people need to start collecting information on rubber parts, like dimensions, material and durometer values for all of these parts before they fail. I found nothing on line about making replacement parts for these. No one stocks replacement parts for anything older than a Canon SX engine (the generation after the CX). Another problem child are Datamation card readers. It's been 20 years now since the last ones were pulled out of service after the 2000 election and there seems to be a steady stream of people trying to make replacements. I think the CHM 1401 guys replaced theirs a few years ago, don't know if they collected mechanical info or where the repair units were made. I've also heard that Terry of Terry's Rubber Rollers is recovering from Covid, and a frequently used place that refurbished typewriter platens has gone out of business. People have suggested https://www.jjshort.com/Recovered-Rubber-Rollers.php as an alternative. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Sep 11 12:11:44 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 17:11:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Archiving classic computer rubber part information In-Reply-To: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> References: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1609229387.537514.1631380304790@mail.yahoo.com> The roller in the HP cartridge tape drives of various models have turned to crap also... I have one that came with an HP 3000 series 37 mighty mouse system? ?thst totally goo-ed a tape........ Any one with similar problem find a replacement roller?? ? ?Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 9:18 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: I've been having fun this past week trying to get the mechanics of a Canon CX print engine in a LaserWriter restored. The paper pick and separation rollers have turned to goo. This got me thinking that people need to start collecting information on rubber parts, like dimensions, material and durometer values for all of these parts before they fail. I found nothing on line about making replacement parts for these. No one stocks replacement parts for anything older than a Canon SX engine (the generation after the CX). Another problem child are Datamation card readers. It's been 20 years now since the last ones were pulled out of service after the 2000 election and there seems to be a steady stream of people trying to make replacements. I think the CHM 1401 guys replaced theirs a few years ago, don't know if they collected mechanical info or where the repair units were made. I've also heard that Terry of Terry's Rubber Rollers is recovering from Covid, and a frequently used place that refurbished typewriter platens has gone out of business. People have suggested https://www.jjshort.com/Recovered-Rubber-Rollers.php as an alternative. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 11 12:51:17 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:51:17 -0700 Subject: Archiving classic computer rubber part information In-Reply-To: <1609229387.537514.1631380304790@mail.yahoo.com> References: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> <1609229387.537514.1631380304790@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The roller in the HP cartridge tape drives of various models have turned to crap also... I have one that came with an HP 3000 series 37 > mighty mouse system? ?thst totally goo-ed a tape........ Any one with similar problem find a replacement roller? Yes, they are easily made from norprene tubing. I do the same for DEC TU58 rollers. The trick to cutting them is to put the tubing over a wooden dowel, then cut with an xacto or single-edge razor blade. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Sep 11 13:09:15 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 18:09:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Archiving classic computer rubber part information In-Reply-To: References: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> <1609229387.537514.1631380304790@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1057965181.573142.1631383755546@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Al!??OK the thickness of tubing is not critical? That black goo is hard to get off? the hands.. what have you found to be the best solvent?? ?Ed# Sent from the all new AThanks Al. OL app for Android On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 10:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > The roller in the HP cartridge tape drives of various models have turned to crap also... I have one that came with an HP 3000 series 37 > mighty mouse system? ?thst totally goo-ed a tape........ Any one with similar problem find a replacement roller? Yes, they are easily made from norprene tubing. I do the same for DEC TU58 rollers. The trick to cutting them is to put the tubing over a wooden dowel, then cut with an xacto or single-edge razor blade. From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Sep 11 13:23:26 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 11:23:26 -0700 Subject: Archiving classic computer rubber part information In-Reply-To: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> References: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <247cf996-ce5b-e2da-844b-b6148468650a@snowmoose.com> In addition to the Suns that I collect, I also collect ultra-portable typewriters. JJ Short are recommended for platen and rollers on the Typewriters mailing list and, based on their website, it looks like they could do molded rubber parts for printers. I have heard that they are pricey, but I wouldn't know. Despite sending in quote requests twice, I have yet to receive price quotes for platen and rollers for my typewriters. alan On 9/11/21 9:18 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > a > frequently used place that refurbished typewriter platens has gone out > of business. > People have suggested > https://www.jjshort.com/Recovered-Rubber-Rollers.php as an > alternative. > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 11 14:22:26 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:22:26 -0700 Subject: Archiving classic computer rubber part information In-Reply-To: <1057965181.573142.1631383755546@mail.yahoo.com> References: <30626d37-7deb-c690-544a-d81f41cee914@bitsavers.org> <1609229387.537514.1631380304790@mail.yahoo.com> <1057965181.573142.1631383755546@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/21 11:09 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Thanks Al! > OK the thickness of tubing is not critical? > it is. I used https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23485 > That black goo is hard to get off? the hands.. what have you found to be the best solvent?? ?Ed# goo gone, or something else naptha based this comes up a lot, from all the archived threads 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD x 1/8" Wall TygonR A-60-F Hot Food & Beverage Tubing for TU58 Rik Bos posted: And the inside diameter of the 9144/45 is 12mm (~.5") the outside is about 18mm (~.7") (~3mm wall thickness). I use polyurethane to make the new capstans, turn them on the lathe. -Rik Of course now I can't find my usplastic order for what I used for making 9145 rollers I was also thinking I should try a small pipe cutter instead of a razor blade From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Sep 11 21:33:22 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:33:22 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K noisy fans Message-ID: <6E875925-DD9E-4191-95B9-75A136B0D24E@fritzm.org> Hi all, I've been working on a BA11-K PDP-11/34 lately, and wow it sure is a noisy thing... On my '11/45, the "Boxer" fans were easily disassembled via a cir-clip, and could then have their bearings cleaned/relubed (or worst case replaced). Fan maintenance quieted down the /45 a good bit. But these larger 6" Amphenol units don't look quite as easy to get in to... Is the plastic rotor on these just a press fit? Any tricks to getting in there for maintenance? Or are these "you have what you have" and the only option if unsatisfied with their current performance to replace them entirely? cheers, --FritzM. From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Sat Sep 11 10:04:48 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:04:48 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Sun Sparcstation Classic/LX PS Fan Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone by chance have a collection of fans? The one in my Sun Sparc Classic died and I am having a hard time finding a replacement with the same specs. Or can anyone recommend a good source? It's a Nidec BetaV, TA225DC, Model M33402-55 Thanks! -Kurt From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Sep 11 19:05:23 2021 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 20:05:23 -0400 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210912000512.C6AA54E67F@mx2.ezwind.net> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 21:30, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > Quick question: I've been cleaning out and repairing an HP5061 supply > for a 1000 computer. However I didn't take a picture of the 4 boards > when I pulled them and I want to make sure they go in the right places. > > From the manual (page 99 of 92851-90001_Sections-IXB_Mar-1981.pdf) the > slots are labeled A6-J1 through A6-J5. Does this mean that: > > J5 is the control board (A3A5) > J4 is a jumper board for +12 adjustments > J3 is unused (battery backup boards) > J2 is the inverter board (A3A2) > J1 is the pre-regulator board (A3A1) > > Seems right but I know how bad things can go :-) Those are correct. I just pulled the cover off my (working) 1000 M-Series that has a later model supply (5061-6630 date code 2601) but has the same motherboard as yours (5061-1371). J1, J2, and J5 are as above -- Preregulator (5061-3457), Inverter (5061-3454), and Control (5061-6627). I have the power fail option, so J3 is the Battery Charge card (5061-1348) and J4 is the Battery Backup card (5061-1349). -- Dave From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Sep 11 20:31:52 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 21:31:52 -0400 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: <20210912000512.C6AA54E67F@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210912000512.C6AA54E67F@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Those are correct. I just pulled the cover off my (working) 1000 M-Series > that has a later model supply (5061-6630 date code 2601) but has the same > motherboard as yours (5061-1371). J1, J2, and J5 are as above -- > Preregulator (5061-3457), Inverter (5061-3454), and Control (5061-6627). I > have the power fail option, so J3 is the Battery Charge card (5061-1348) > and J4 is the Battery Backup card (5061-1349). Ok, thanks! I just tried mine again, it's a dud so I am going to have to figure it out. First step was to see if the rectifier had any voltage so I disconnected the + side and checked it with a voltmeter. With 120v plugged in I saw 200v DC which is probably not too far off. That seems to go to the inverter card, which I don't know what it's doing with that. Is there a block schematic of what does what on this PS? From matt at 9track.net Mon Sep 13 03:35:37 2021 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:35:37 +0100 Subject: DEC BA11-K noisy fans In-Reply-To: <6E875925-DD9E-4191-95B9-75A136B0D24E@fritzm.org> References: <6E875925-DD9E-4191-95B9-75A136B0D24E@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <95f74aed-9dcc-5c2a-f5fc-ba166378d7f8@9track.net> On 12/09/2021 03:33, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > Is the plastic rotor on these just a press fit? Any tricks to getting in there for maintenance? Or are these "you have what you have" and the only option if unsatisfied with their current performance to replace them entirely? > I replaced the bearings in the fans for two of my BA11-K units though I seem to think they were Nidec rather than Amphenol in my case. There was a plastic plug to remove from the centre of the rotor on the fan side that sits in an Aluminium ring. It's pretty much impossible to prize it out without denting the Aluminium a bit but this then gives you access to the circlip to remove the fan. They are like new now and the replacement bearings were quite cheap. When I looked for new fans of this type they seemed to be well over ?100 each. Matt From mdehling at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 04:00:22 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:00:22 +0200 Subject: Wanted: Sun Sparcstation Classic/LX PS Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kurt, did you see the reply you got on the rescue at sunhelp.com mailing list? The fan is a 12v 60x25mm 14cfm according to the Nidec TA225DC datasheet. Cheers, Malte On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 3:17 AM Kurt Nowak via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone by chance have a collection of fans? The one in my Sun Sparc > Classic died and I am having a hard time finding a replacement with the > same specs. Or can anyone recommend a good source? > > It's a Nidec BetaV, TA225DC, Model M33402-55 > > Thanks! > > -Kurt > From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Sep 13 22:09:03 2021 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Bob Yates) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 22:09:03 -0500 Subject: Sun keyboard and mouse new in box on shopgoodwill Message-ID: https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/129829234 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 14 17:30:04 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:30:04 -0400 Subject: [FTGH] DEC Professional magazine, 32 issues, 1988-1990 Message-ID: <6afc0750-1654-4fc6-aa2e-5886095b41ee@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, If anyone is interested, these are available for cost of postage from Toronto Canada. I will post selected sets but if someone wants the lot, be quick. First come, first served... https://imgur.com/MggLbvQ --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 14 17:46:50 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:46:50 -0400 Subject: [FTGH] DEC Professional magazine, 32 issues, 1988-1990 In-Reply-To: <6afc0750-1654-4fc6-aa2e-5886095b41ee@telegraphics.com.au> References: <6afc0750-1654-4fc6-aa2e-5886095b41ee@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2021-09-14 6:30 p.m., Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > If anyone is interested, these are available for cost of postage from > Toronto Canada. I will post selected sets but if someone wants the lot, > be quick. First come, first served... > > https://imgur.com/MggLbvQ > > --Toby > These have been claimed. All are going to a particularly good home. --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 15 11:00:35 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:00:35 -0700 Subject: ISO PFT (Precision Fabrication Technologies) MOD-U-LINE catalog/brochure Message-ID: PFT made MOD-U-LINE MCLS modular aluminum enclosures (sides, top and front/back). The only information on the web is https://www.ceitron.com/passive/pft.html Does anyone still have a copy of their brochure? They were used a lot for projects in the 70's and 80's like the PCM-12 The company was bought by Zero Mfg in the 90's. There isn't anyone making anything like that now. http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/PCM12/pcm12-1.jpg From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 15 11:04:13 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:04:13 -0700 Subject: ISO PFT (Precision Fabrication Technologies) MOD-U-LINE catalog/brochure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/15/21 9:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > PFT made MOD-U-LINE MCLS modular aluminum enclosures (sides, top and front/back). > > The only information on the web is > https://www.ceitron.com/passive/pft.html > > Does anyone still have a copy of their brochure? > > They were used a lot for projects in the 70's and 80's like the PCM-12 > The company was bought by Zero Mfg in the 90's. There isn't anyone making > anything like that now. > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/PCM12/pcm12-1.jpg > Oddly, there was another company out here that was part of CTS that sold the same thing. https://www.ebay.com/itm/293595691950 From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Sep 15 13:58:58 2021 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:58:58 -0400 Subject: ISO PFT (Precision Fabrication Technologies) MOD-U-LINE catalog/brochure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210915185902.43167274E9@mx1.ezwind.net> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:00, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > PFT made MOD-U-LINE MCLS modular aluminum enclosures (sides, top and > front/back). > > The only information on the web is > https://www.ceitron.com/passive/pft.html > > Does anyone still have a copy of their brochure? I don't think I have a brochure, but PFT products occupy about ten pages of my 1997 Allied Electronics catalog. Mod-U-Line cabinets are on the first page. PFT catalog numbers, dimensions, and a bit of material data. -- Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 15 15:15:21 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:15:21 -0700 Subject: ISO PFT (Precision Fabrication Technologies) MOD-U-LINE catalog/brochure In-Reply-To: <20210915185902.43167274E9@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20210915185902.43167274E9@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 9/15/21 11:58 AM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: > I don't think I have a brochure, but PFT products occupy about ten pages of > my 1997 Allied Electronics catalog. I picked up a 1990 catalog, we'll see if it's in there. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 12:06:54 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:06:54 -0400 Subject: September 25th Kennett Classic - Only 9 Days To Go Message-ID: Only 9 days until the 2nd-annual Kennett Classic URL for more info: https://www.kennettclassic.com/ Download flyer: https://www.kennettclassic.com/kc2/kennett-classic-flyer-KC-II.pdf WHAT: Our yearly event to celebrate another year of operations. WHERE: 115 S. Union St. Kennett Square, PA USA (Between Philadelphia and Baltimore). The venue is called "The Garage", it's a large ventilated building located across the street from the museum. WHEN: [ 8AM ] the workshop / hackerspace opens [ 12 Noon - 5PM ] - open to "the public" exhibits So far we have about 10 exhibits - We could use a few more, please inquire if interested. [ 5-7PM ] - Retooling for the music performances / Dinner There are a dozen restaurants within walking distance and lots to do in Kennett Square, PA or you can use that time to tour the museum, or just stay in the building and continue your work [ 7PM - 11PM ] Live Chiptune / Wave-bending performances! --BANDS-- AP0C Inverse Phase Cheap Dinosaurs (sound clip links from kennettclassic.com) QUESTIONS? https://www.kennettclassic.com/contact.cfm From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 06:37:29 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:37:29 -0400 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 Message-ID: Hello, I had asked this question on the tuhs discord channel, no response yet so i figured i would try here. I'm working to get my pdp 11/34 and 11/45 running. I was curious what versions of unix or bsd would work on the machines i have. I wanted to set up the systems with a bunch of dumb terminals and show them off at a local maker fair. If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was also curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i could SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use dumb terminals. On a bit of a side question, did minix exist for the pdp11? There is mention of it on wikipedia, but ive not found much other mention of it. I read the minix book, and have used it quite a bit on the ibm pc, so i figured i would ask if a copy for the pdp 11 is out there. --Devin D. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 17 06:54:55 2021 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:54:55 +0100 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15e1199f-5edb-7601-3cbc-037340c37cfb@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/09/2021 12:37, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I'm working to get my pdp 11/34 and 11/45 running. I was curious what > versions of unix or bsd would work on the machines i have. I wanted to set > up the systems with a bunch of dumb terminals and show them off at a local > maker fair. 7th Edition Unix would run on either machine, and will support multiple serial terminals. BSD 2.11 needs split I/D space, which the 11/34 doesn't have. > If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was also > curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i could > SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use dumb > terminals. 7th Edition has no Ethernet/TCP/IP capability. BSD 2.11 does. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 07:29:07 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:29:07 -0400 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: <15e1199f-5edb-7601-3cbc-037340c37cfb@dunnington.plus.com> References: <15e1199f-5edb-7601-3cbc-037340c37cfb@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Thank you for the valuable information. It seems like v7 unix will be the way to go. Perhaps i can get some uucp connection going over a serial line out of the machine, that could be interesting. I found this page, and it confirms what you said about 2.11 bsd, not compatible with the 11/34 cpu. https://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/node6.html On the same page, there is mention of 2.9 bsd, and the 11/34 is listed as compatible. Is tcpip availible in this version? Thank you again for the helpful info. --Devin D. On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 7:55 AM Pete Turnbull via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 17/09/2021 12:37, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm working to get my pdp 11/34 and 11/45 running. I was curious what > > versions of unix or bsd would work on the machines i have. I wanted to > set > > up the systems with a bunch of dumb terminals and show them off at a > local > > maker fair. > > 7th Edition Unix would run on either machine, and will support multiple > serial terminals. BSD 2.11 needs split I/D space, which the 11/34 > doesn't have. > > > If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was > also > > curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i > could > > SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use > dumb > > terminals. > > 7th Edition has no Ethernet/TCP/IP capability. BSD 2.11 does. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Sep 17 08:08:17 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:08:17 -0600 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: References: <15e1199f-5edb-7601-3cbc-037340c37cfb@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 6:29 AM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thank you for the valuable information. > It seems like v7 unix will be the way to go. Perhaps i can get some uucp > connection going over a serial line out of the machine, that could be > interesting. > > I found this page, and it confirms what you said about 2.11 bsd, not > compatible with the 11/34 cpu. > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/node6.html > > On the same page, there is mention of 2.9 bsd, and the 11/34 is listed as > compatible. Is tcpip availible in this version? > No. 2.9BSD does not have TCP/IP. At least the distributions on TUHS don't have it. 2.10 is the first one I can find with TCP/IP. Ultrix 3.1 does have TCP, but it's not the most stable system when you use it. It's kinda sorta 2.9BSD with some of the networking bits glued in. Warner > Thank you again for the helpful info. > > --Devin D. > > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 7:55 AM Pete Turnbull via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 17/09/2021 12:37, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > > > > I'm working to get my pdp 11/34 and 11/45 running. I was curious what > > > versions of unix or bsd would work on the machines i have. I wanted to > > set > > > up the systems with a bunch of dumb terminals and show them off at a > > local > > > maker fair. > > > > 7th Edition Unix would run on either machine, and will support multiple > > serial terminals. BSD 2.11 needs split I/D space, which the 11/34 > > doesn't have. > > > > > If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was > > also > > > curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i > > could > > > SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use > > dumb > > > terminals. > > > > 7th Edition has no Ethernet/TCP/IP capability. BSD 2.11 does. > > > > -- > > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > > > From cube1 at charter.net Fri Sep 17 15:08:19 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:08:19 -0500 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/17/2021 6:37 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was also > curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i could > SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use dumb > terminals. > A UNIBUS Ethernet interface does exist - the DEUNA. It is two boards, and very power hungry. I have a a couple of third party Ethernet boards from a VAX, but no documentation on them. They are not in my inventory (they came from a couple of Intergraph VAX systems, and I didn't inventory any of those boards), so I'd have to hunt to find them. I doubt very much they are standard DEC software compatible. JRJ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 15:19:22 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:19:22 +0000 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Van: Jay Jaeger via cctalk Verzonden: vrijdag 17 september 2021 22:08 Aan: devin davison; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 On 9/17/2021 6:37 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was also > curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i could > SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use dumb > terminals. > A UNIBUS Ethernet interface does exist - the DEUNA. It is two boards, and very power hungry. I have a a couple of third party Ethernet boards from a VAX, but no documentation on them. They are not in my inventory (they came from a couple of Intergraph VAX systems, and I didn't inventory any of those boards), so I'd have to hunt to find them. I doubt very much they are standard DEC software compatible. JRJ IIRC, the DEUNA pulls 18 Amps from 5V. But there was also a single hex board UNIBUS Ethernet interface from DEC, the DELUA (M7521-AA IIRC, too lazy to look up). It uses a 68010 at 10 MHz. Henk, PA8PDP From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 17:56:47 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:56:47 -0400 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/17/21 4:08 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 9/17/2021 6:37 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was >> also >> curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i >> could >> SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use >> dumb >> terminals. >> > > A UNIBUS Ethernet interface does exist - the DEUNA.? It is two boards, > and very power hungry.?? I have a a couple of third party Ethernet > boards from a VAX, but no documentation on them.?? They are not in my > inventory (they came from a couple of Intergraph VAX systems, and I > didn't inventory any of those boards), so I'd have to hunt to find them. > ?I doubt very much they are standard DEC software compatible. > Actually, there were two. DEUNA and DELUA. I have used both and they definitely work. bill From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Sep 17 19:48:26 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 17:48:26 -0700 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77E23C9C-48E0-4E57-AD91-00CBF3E5583D@fritzm.org> A fully-populated 18-bit address space on the /34 and /45 is only 128K words, which seems like a pretty tight fit for a TCP stack with practically sized buffers? I had always sorta assumed DELUA/DEUNA were only practically useful for TCP on extended Unibus machines (/70, /44, /24, etc.) but I could certainly be wrong on that assumption! --FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 19:59:31 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:59:31 -0400 Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: <77E23C9C-48E0-4E57-AD91-00CBF3E5583D@fritzm.org> References: <77E23C9C-48E0-4E57-AD91-00CBF3E5583D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Sep 17, 2021, at 8:48 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > A fully-populated 18-bit address space on the /34 and /45 is only 128K words, which seems like a pretty tight fit for a TCP stack with practically sized buffers? > > I had always sorta assumed DELUA/DEUNA were only practically useful for TCP on extended Unibus machines (/70, /44, /24, etc.) but I could certainly be wrong on that assumption! > > --FritzM. Certainly the 22 bit machines are a nicer choice, but various operating systems supported DECnet on 18 bit machines, which is a similar size problem. As for buffers, one data point is that the DECNA -- the Pro (CT bus) Ethernet adapter -- has on-board buffer memory. That memory is fixed at 64 kwords. And compared to typical buffer allocations in DECnet (for RSTS anyway, the one I know) that's plenty large enough. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 18 11:15:32 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair Message-ID: Clive Sinclair died at 81 after a long illness (probably not Covid) 'course now he is touted as being "the inventor of the pocket calculator" (as with all "FIRST"s, it leaves out a few predecessors,such as Busicom (1971, whose contract with Intel led to the 4004), Kilby's 1967 "Cal Tech" at TI, etc.) I'm not sure, but the HP35 might even have preceded the Sinclair calculator. As with all "FIRST"s, an entry can be saved by redefining the field. Sinclair's was probably the first one costing 5 pounds or less. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 18 12:06:13 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:06:13 -0700 Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/18/21 9:15 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Clive Sinclair died at 81 after a long illness (probably not Covid) > > > 'course now he is touted as being "the inventor of the pocket calculator" > (as with all "FIRST"s, it leaves out a few predecessors,such as Busicom > (1971, whose contract with Intel led to the 4004), Kilby's 1967 "Cal > Tech" at TI, etc.) > I'm not sure, but the HP35 might even have preceded the Sinclair > calculator. > As with all "FIRST"s, an entry can be saved by redefining the field. > Sinclair's was probably the first one costing 5 pounds or less. He still owes me the circuit board for his Black Watch. He shipped the things without the PCB, just an empty case and battery holder. Apparently, this was done for a number of people. Anyone have a completed, working Black Watch? Or was this a case of Clive blowing smoke? --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Sep 18 12:25:00 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:25:00 -0500 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA Message-ID: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> Given the hot real estate market, I've received an unsolicited offer to purchase my office building and I'd like to accept it. This means disposing of a great deal of classic computer stuff in the next 30 days. I need to let go of what isn't sparking joy, as they say these days. At least I saved the pieces. What will best let me part with it is knowing that it went to someone who also appreciates it. I'm located in Jefferson, WI, halfway between Madison and Milwaukee. I'd prefer in-person pickup over shipping, as I have a shortage of time and adequate shipping boxes for heavy stuff. Sure, I'll take cash but I also realize I may need to be giving it away. I'm debating how to do it. Facebook Marketplace? eBay pick-up only? Just here on CCC? A web site? I'll work on a more detailed list and pics of what has to go and I'll figure out the best way to post. Yes, it's unfortunate that I didn't take a van-load to VCF Midwest a few days ago. Off the top of my head, a Microvax, a MicroPDP-11, an 11-23, a Vaxstation, a Kaypro, two CBM PETs, a Tandy M-100 or two, a Zilog development system, two PDQ-1, a Sage, some S-100 cards, piles of other cards for various systems, probably a pile of Amiga stuff (A500, A1000, A2000, A3000, Toasters, early developer docs), some C-64 or C-128 and software, some Apple II and clone stuff, Macs from classic on up, a great deal of 3D related software and manuals from 80s/90s for Amiga/PC/Mac/SGI, several SGIs, a Play Trinity video system, Palm handhelds and developer stuff, Compaq and HP handhelds, a Pertec 9-track, an ASR-33, bare 8-inch drives and cabling, a number of tube monitors of sizes from large and SGI and Trinitron down to smaller terminals. A serial terminal or two. A few dot-matrix printers and lasers and ink-jets. A stack of Pentium Pro 200 chips, bags of other CPUs and older memory chips. I have either the world's largest or second-largest collection of Terak computers, on the order of a dozen, and nine or ten need to go. Plus other interconnecting stuff, BNC cable, serial and parallel, etc. Docs like a decade of SIGGRAPH proceedings, Inside Mac, years of MSDN CD sets (Intel/MIPS/AXP era), sets of late-80s early-90s computer magazines (inc. early BYTE and Kilobaud and Dr. Dobbs, Amiga mags, video industry mags). A pile of early WISP outdoor WiFi era antennas (dishes, panels, directionals of various dB, N connector) and associated heavy coax. Plus a fair pile of more "contemporary" PC stuff from the last 20 years. Misc cards, VLB, EISA, etc. A bunch of PCs, plus IDE and SATA drives. Many misc. consumer firewalls. Some odd laser and optical stuff. A number of older lab-quality microscopes like a projector scope, several desk microscopes, a black Leitz Ortholux, an articulated standing Zeiss surgical scope. A Leitz Focomat II photo enlarger and all the extras. An AMRAY electron microscope. And just to put fear in your heart, what doesn't go will go to you will go to the electronics scrapper and the dumpster. Send me an email... - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 12:33:42 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:33:42 -0500 Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03475ef0-4213-143e-8d5a-1664708d2d43@gmail.com> On 9/18/21 11:15 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Clive Sinclair died at 81 after a long illness (probably not Covid) > > > 'course now he is touted as being "the inventor of the pocket calculator" > (as with all "FIRST"s, it leaves out a few predecessors,such as Busicom > (1971, whose contract with Intel led to the 4004), Kilby's 1967 "Cal Tech" > at TI, etc.) > I'm not sure, but the HP35 might even have preceded the Sinclair calculator. > As with all "FIRST"s, an entry can be saved by redefining the field. > Sinclair's was probably the first one costing 5 pounds or less. Pockets in the US were bigger than in the UK ;-) I do remember the Sinclair products using hearing aid batteries and so being very slimline and compact in comparison to other hand-helds of the era, but I don't know about any claim to "first". Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 12:41:50 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 17:41:50 +0000 Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course, Busicom was the first programed microprocessor driven calculator, it wasn't the first calculator using calculator ICs. That is what Busicom was trying to compete with, when going to Intel in the first place. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 9:15 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair Clive Sinclair died at 81 after a long illness (probably not Covid) 'course now he is touted as being "the inventor of the pocket calculator" (as with all "FIRST"s, it leaves out a few predecessors,such as Busicom (1971, whose contract with Intel led to the 4004), Kilby's 1967 "Cal Tech" at TI, etc.) I'm not sure, but the HP35 might even have preceded the Sinclair calculator. As with all "FIRST"s, an entry can be saved by redefining the field. Sinclair's was probably the first one costing 5 pounds or less. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Sep 18 13:25:03 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:25:03 -0500 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <857f2f9f-847d-8a44-37e9-3a0a275667cf@charter.net> On 9/18/2021 12:25 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > Given the hot real estate market, I've received an unsolicited > offer to purchase my office building and I'd like to accept it. > Real life. > This means disposing of a great deal of classic computer stuff in > the next 30 days. I need to let go of what isn't sparking joy, > as they say these days. At least I saved the pieces. What will > best let me part with it is knowing that it went to someone who > also appreciates it. > Tough spot. Even thinking about liquidating my stuff over the next 10 *years* is daunting. > I'm located in Jefferson, WI, halfway between Madison and Milwaukee. > I'd prefer in-person pickup over shipping, as I have a shortage of > time and adequate shipping boxes for heavy stuff. > Nearby, in Madison but, unfortunately, essentially out of room. 8( > Sure, I'll take cash but I also realize I may need to be giving > it away. I'm debating how to do it. Facebook Marketplace? > eBay pick-up only? Just here on CCC? A web site? I'll work on > a more detailed list and pics of what has to go and I'll figure out > the best way to post. Yes, it's unfortunate that I didn't take > a van-load to VCF Midwest a few days ago. > > Off the top of my head, a Microvax, a MicroPDP-11, an 11-23, > a Vaxstation, a Kaypro, two CBM PETs, a Tandy M-100 or two, a > Zilog development system, two PDQ-1, a Sage, some S-100 cards, > piles of other cards for various systems, probably a pile of Amiga > stuff (A500, A1000, A2000, A3000, Toasters, early developer docs), > some C-64 or C-128 and software, some Apple II and clone stuff, > Macs from classic on up, a great deal of 3D related software and > manuals from 80s/90s for Amiga/PC/Mac/SGI, several SGIs, a Play Trinity > video system, Palm handhelds and developer stuff, Compaq and HP > handhelds, a Pertec 9-track, an ASR-33, bare 8-inch drives > and cabling, a number of tube monitors of sizes from large and > SGI and Trinitron down to smaller terminals. A serial terminal > or two. A few dot-matrix printers and lasers and ink-jets. > A stack of Pentium Pro 200 chips, bags of other CPUs and older > memory chips. I suggest listing the S100 stuff on the S100Computers Google Group. Would be happy to assist, given a list of stuff, in getting it posted there. If you have any PDP-8 Omnibus cards, I'd be interested in learning what you have. I'd also be interested in Q-Bus or UNIBUS SCSI, and Q-Bus RX01/RX02, RK05 (if such existed) and RL01/02 controllers. If nobody else wanted the MicroPDP-11, I *might* take that as a spare unit to mine. > > I have either the world's largest or second-largest collection of > Terak computers, on the order of a dozen, and nine or ten need to go. > Seriously tempting, but I'll have to stay away from the Teraks. 8( > Plus other interconnecting stuff, BNC cable, serial and parallel, etc. > > Docs like a decade of SIGGRAPH proceedings, Inside Mac, years of > MSDN CD sets (Intel/MIPS/AXP era), sets of late-80s early-90s > computer magazines (inc. early BYTE and Kilobaud and Dr. Dobbs, > Amiga mags, video industry mags). > > A pile of early WISP outdoor WiFi era antennas (dishes, panels, > directionals of various dB, N connector) and associated heavy coax. > > Plus a fair pile of more "contemporary" PC stuff from the last 20 years. > Misc cards, VLB, EISA, etc. A bunch of PCs, plus IDE and SATA drives. > Many misc. consumer firewalls. > > Some odd laser and optical stuff. A number of older lab-quality > microscopes like a projector scope, several desk microscopes, > a black Leitz Ortholux, an articulated standing Zeiss surgical scope. > A Leitz Focomat II photo enlarger and all the extras. > An AMRAY electron microscope. > > And just to put fear in your heart, what doesn't go will go to you > will go to the electronics scrapper and the dumpster. > > Send me an email... > > - John > JRJ From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 13:31:43 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 18:31:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: John Foust via cctalk References: <1323424898.1884397.1631989903322.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1323424898.1884397.1631989903322@mail.yahoo.com> Hello, You mentioned a VAXstation and a Microvax. What encosures are they in? (That will affect shipping costs). Is the micro-pdp/11 in a BA23 with complete skins? thanks -Jonathan Stone From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Sep 18 13:58:04 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 11:58:04 -0700 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: <857f2f9f-847d-8a44-37e9-3a0a275667cf@charter.net> References: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> <857f2f9f-847d-8a44-37e9-3a0a275667cf@charter.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 18, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > Tough spot. Even thinking about liquidating my stuff over the next 10 *years* is daunting. And I have a fraction of either of you, I've been trying to downsize for 21 years now. > Nearby, in Madison but, unfortunately, essentially out of room. 8( Aren?t we all out of room? It?s the nature of the hobby. Zane From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 18 14:04:39 2021 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 14:04:39 -0500 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: John, I'd be interested the 8" drives. What kind are they? Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust via cctalk Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 12:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA Given the hot real estate market, I've received an unsolicited offer to purchase my office building and I'd like to accept it. This means disposing of a great deal of classic computer stuff in the next 30 days. I need to let go of what isn't sparking joy, as they say these days. At least I saved the pieces. What will best let me part with it is knowing that it went to someone who also appreciates it. I'm located in Jefferson, WI, halfway between Madison and Milwaukee. I'd prefer in-person pickup over shipping, as I have a shortage of time and adequate shipping boxes for heavy stuff. Sure, I'll take cash but I also realize I may need to be giving it away. I'm debating how to do it. Facebook Marketplace? eBay pick-up only? Just here on CCC? A web site? I'll work on a more detailed list and pics of what has to go and I'll figure out the best way to post. Yes, it's unfortunate that I didn't take a van-load to VCF Midwest a few days ago. Off the top of my head, a Microvax, a MicroPDP-11, an 11-23, a Vaxstation, a Kaypro, two CBM PETs, a Tandy M-100 or two, a Zilog development system, two PDQ-1, a Sage, some S-100 cards, piles of other cards for various systems, probably a pile of Amiga stuff (A500, A1000, A2000, A3000, Toasters, early developer docs), some C-64 or C-128 and software, some Apple II and clone stuff, Macs from classic on up, a great deal of 3D related software and manuals from 80s/90s for Amiga/PC/Mac/SGI, several SGIs, a Play Trinity video system, Palm handhelds and developer stuff, Compaq and HP handhelds, a Pertec 9-track, an ASR-33, bare 8-inch drives and cabling, a number of tube monitors of sizes from large and SGI and Trinitron down to smaller terminals. A serial terminal or two. A few dot-matrix printers and lasers and ink-jets. A stack of Pentium Pro 200 chips, bags of other CPUs and older memory chips. I have either the world's largest or second-largest collection of Terak computers, on the order of a dozen, and nine or ten need to go. Plus other interconnecting stuff, BNC cable, serial and parallel, etc. Docs like a decade of SIGGRAPH proceedings, Inside Mac, years of MSDN CD sets (Intel/MIPS/AXP era), sets of late-80s early-90s computer magazines (inc. early BYTE and Kilobaud and Dr. Dobbs, Amiga mags, video industry mags). A pile of early WISP outdoor WiFi era antennas (dishes, panels, directionals of various dB, N connector) and associated heavy coax. Plus a fair pile of more "contemporary" PC stuff from the last 20 years. Misc cards, VLB, EISA, etc. A bunch of PCs, plus IDE and SATA drives. Many misc. consumer firewalls. Some odd laser and optical stuff. A number of older lab-quality microscopes like a projector scope, several desk microscopes, a black Leitz Ortholux, an articulated standing Zeiss surgical scope. A Leitz Focomat II photo enlarger and all the extras. An AMRAY electron microscope. And just to put fear in your heart, what doesn't go will go to you will go to the electronics scrapper and the dumpster. Send me an email... - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Sep 18 14:16:20 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 14:16:20 -0500 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: <857f2f9f-847d-8a44-37e9-3a0a275667cf@charter.net> References: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> <857f2f9f-847d-8a44-37e9-3a0a275667cf@charter.net> Message-ID: <20210918191641.E06E74E6E9@mx2.ezwind.net> At 01:25 PM 9/18/2021, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >Nearby, in Madison but, unfortunately, essentially out of room. 8( Darn, I was hoping you'd want some... >I suggest listing the S100 stuff on the S100Computers Google Group. Would be happy to assist, given a list of stuff, in getting it posted there. It was a box of misc cards I picked up in a rescue a decade or so ago. Nothing too special as far as I remember... >I'd also be interested in Q-Bus or UNIBUS SCSI, and Q-Bus RX01/RX02, RK05 (if such existed) and RL01/02 controllers. >If nobody else wanted the MicroPDP-11, I *might* take that as a spare unit to mine. That's the spirit. :-) - John From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 18 14:18:50 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:18:50 -0700 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: References: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE REPLY TO JOHN AND NOT THE LIST! On 9/18/21 12:04 PM, mike via cctalk wrote: > John, I'd be interested the 8" drives. What kind are they? > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Sep 18 15:01:33 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 16:01:33 -0400 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement Message-ID: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex came with me. This is not a bad idea as if one of the piles shift and I get stuck it would be nice to have someone there to call 911. Anyway we cleared out a lot of the stuff in the tunnel to the Perqs including: A Franklin computer, in box. A TRS80 Model 3 An Apollo 3500 or so server box (heavy) A Sun2 something A sun 3/60 (I remember these!) A Sparcserver 10,000 (heavy beyond belief) Some sort of an IBM AS400 thing (also heavy) An Apple II/e. Few more hard drives Weird scope like things The good news is the way to the MicroVax and the Perqs are clear. The bad news is these are Perq2's which are bulky and there is still a pedestal mounted Sun 3/110 in the way. Moral: Do not die with a lot of this stuff in your basement. We were far more able to move this stuff 30 years ago when we were young than today. We may need more people. 2 hours of working that pile left us both trashed. Ian, want to come over sometime? C From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Sep 18 15:14:14 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:14:14 -0700 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <45BA0B6D-AAD5-45E7-82F8-1F72EFDAC716@snowmoose.com> Where is this? > On Sep 18, 2021, at 13:01, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > ?Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex came with me. This is not a bad idea as if one of the piles shift and I get stuck it would be nice to have someone there to call 911. Anyway we cleared out a lot of the stuff in the tunnel to the Perqs including: > > A Franklin computer, in box. > A TRS80 Model 3 > An Apollo 3500 or so server box (heavy) > A Sun2 something > A sun 3/60 (I remember these!) > A Sparcserver 10,000 (heavy beyond belief) > Some sort of an IBM AS400 thing (also heavy) > An Apple II/e. > Few more hard drives > Weird scope like things > > The good news is the way to the MicroVax and the Perqs are clear. The bad news is these are Perq2's which are bulky and there is still a pedestal mounted Sun 3/110 in the way. > > Moral: Do not die with a lot of this stuff in your basement. We were far more able to move this stuff 30 years ago when we were young than today. > > We may need more people. 2 hours of working that pile left us both trashed. Ian, want to come over sometime? > > C > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 18 15:30:10 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: <03475ef0-4213-143e-8d5a-1664708d2d43@gmail.com> References: <03475ef0-4213-143e-8d5a-1664708d2d43@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Clive Sinclair died at 81 after a long illness (probably not Covid) >> 'course now he is touted as being "the inventor of the pocket calculator" >> (as with all "FIRST"s, it leaves out a few predecessors,such as Busicom >> (1971, whose contract with Intel led to the 4004), Kilby's 1967 "Cal Tech" >> at TI, etc.) >> I'm not sure, but the HP35 might even have preceded the Sinclair >> calculator. >> As with all "FIRST"s, an entry can be saved by redefining the field. >> Sinclair's was probably the first one costing 5 pounds or less. On Sat, 18 Sep 2021, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Pockets in the US were bigger than in the UK ;-) Yes, and possibly also deeper. It was not considered a MAJOR expense/struggle to buy a personal computer. Some of which may have been that despite the exchange rate of 1.50 USD - 2.50 USD per GBP (British pound), a product costing 1500 USD would be sold for 1500 GBP. At one point, there was an enormous battle for what would be the "shirt pocket disk". The battle was between 3", 3.25", and 3.5". Dysan bet the company on 3.25", because they would need the least retooling. They reasoned that it would settle on whichever one had the software. They launched an enormous software distribution venture. For a little while, you could buy most of the biggest products (Lotus, Wordstar, dBase, etc.) on 3.25"! Amusingly, the Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only machine that made it to market using 3.25". When HP, Apple, and IBM chose the Sony 3.5", the battle was over. During the heat of the battle, George Morrow suggested that we merely cut a deal with the clothing industry to make pockets 5.25". > I do remember the Sinclair products using hearing aid batteries and so being > very slimline and compact in comparison to other hand-helds of the era, but I > don't know about any claim to "first". Both BBC and the Grauniad (Guardian) flatly stated it in announcing his death! https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-58587521 "Inventor Sir Clive Sinclair, who popularised the home computer and invented the pocket calculator, has died at his London home aged 81." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/17/sir-clive-sinclair As usual, all claims of "FIRST" can be argued through the definitions. "That one doesn't count, because it was over $200; that one doesn't count, because we only consider SHIRT pockets; that one doesn't count because it couldn't run off of its batteries for more than a few minutes, . . . " In 1972, my boss, who was French, had a French coat pocket sized calculator. Because it was stored in my desk drawer, I was listed as "Head Of Computing Services" when my company bid on guvmint contracts. While in the field on the EPA contract to study water pollution control efforts in the Great Lakes, I first saw an HP35. On that project, I set up a microfilming rig with one of my ancient Leicas, and our report had an 8,000 page documentary appendix. (but NO computing) On our CEQ project, we did some trivial FORTRAN programs, and were the FIRST to ever correlate water quality with flow rates, and demonstrated that the phosphates were due to agricultural runoff, NOT laundry. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Sep 18 15:40:38 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:40:38 -0700 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> > On Sep 18, 2021, at 1:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex came with me. This is not a bad idea as if one of the piles shift and I get stuck it would be nice to have someone there to call 911. You might be joking, but this is no joke, it?s a *VERY* good idea. Back when my collection was in storage units, I took a large vintage TV to the head. Thankfully I was okay, but it could have been much worse. After that I started being more cautious. > Moral: Do not die with a lot of this stuff in your basement. We were far more able to move this stuff 30 years ago when we were young than today. Good point. I was reminded of this a few months ago, while I was working some of my old gear while on my Sabbatical. The good news, I don?t have a basement. :-) Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 18 15:45:04 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Sep 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Of course, Busicom was the first programed microprocessor driven > calculator, it wasn't the first calculator using calculator ICs. That is > what Busicom was trying to compete with, when going to Intel in the > first place. I think that the Sinclair used TI calculator ICs. Unless he had a special "in" with TI, AND was fastest to market, then it is doubtful that he could legitimately claim to be "FIRST". From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Sep 18 16:36:05 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 14:36:05 -0700 Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair (is: TV and computer in the US) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a2e0f66-18fa-543d-04ab-897f7aae44ba@jwsss.com> On 9/18/2021 1:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 18 Sep 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> Of course, Busicom was the first programed microprocessor driven >> calculator, it wasn't the first calculator using calculator ICs. That >> is what Busicom was trying to compete with, when going to Intel in >> the first place. > > I think that the Sinclair used TI calculator ICs. > Unless he had a special "in" with TI, AND was fastest to market, then > it is doubtful that he could legitimately claim to be "FIRST". I was really fascinated with the Sinclair TV when he brought it out.? It worked great and was a cool toy. I don't recall for sure what computer showed up, but I'm not sure it was the ZX80, but it was a black thing with a touch type keyboard.? I got it as soon as it was available. At one point of course had to hook the computer to the TV and squint.? To the? credit, the TV performed well enough to see the screen, but of course wasn't really useful. Both are lurking.? I hope the TV(s) show up in my move I have done recently as I unpack. There are 2 varieties of the Panasonic 1" sets, and the Sinclair.? Also a 1" viewfinder wired to run off of some voltage with a generic RCA compatable input. thanks Jim From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Sat Sep 18 20:32:59 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:32:59 -0500 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> I have a basement but I also have a wife who complains everytime I bring some orphaned computer part (or camera) home and to the basement.? In her eyes it's all junk. Which is worse, no basement or a wife ? It was because of my first wife (now ex) that I sold my 2 full racks of PDP-8/E equipment. On 9/18/2021 3:40 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sep 18, 2021, at 1:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex came with me. This is not a bad idea as if one of the piles shift and I get stuck it would be nice to have someone there to call 911. > You might be joking, but this is no joke, it?s a *VERY* good idea. Back when my collection was in storage units, I took a large vintage TV to the head. Thankfully I was okay, but it could have been much worse. After that I started being more cautious. > >> Moral: Do not die with a lot of this stuff in your basement. We were far more able to move this stuff 30 years ago when we were young than today. > Good point. I was reminded of this a few months ago, while I was working some of my old gear while on my Sabbatical. The good news, I don?t have a basement. :-) > > Zane > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 20:36:46 2021 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:36:46 -0300 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: I'd dump the wife... Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em s?b, 18 de set de 2021 22:33, Mike Katz via cctalk escreveu: > I have a basement but I also have a wife who complains everytime I bring > some orphaned computer part (or camera) home and to the basement. In > her eyes it's all junk. > > Which is worse, no basement or a wife ? > > It was because of my first wife (now ex) that I sold my 2 full racks of > PDP-8/E equipment. > > On 9/18/2021 3:40 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Sep 18, 2021, at 1:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex came > with me. This is not a bad idea as if one of the piles shift and I get > stuck it would be nice to have someone there to call 911. > > You might be joking, but this is no joke, it?s a *VERY* good idea. Back > when my collection was in storage units, I took a large vintage TV to the > head. Thankfully I was okay, but it could have been much worse. After > that I started being more cautious. > > > >> Moral: Do not die with a lot of this stuff in your basement. We were > far more able to move this stuff 30 years ago when we were young than today. > > Good point. I was reminded of this a few months ago, while I was > working some of my old gear while on my Sabbatical. The good news, I don?t > have a basement. :-) > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Sat Sep 18 20:39:55 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:39:55 -0500 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: I did finally dump the first wife.? The second one is just too good to dump. On 9/18/2021 8:36 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I'd dump the wife... > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > Em s?b, 18 de set de 2021 22:33, Mike Katz via cctalk > > escreveu: > > I have a basement but I also have a wife who complains everytime I > bring > some orphaned computer part (or camera) home and to the basement.? In > her eyes it's all junk. > > Which is worse, no basement or a wife ? > > It was because of my first wife (now ex) that I sold my 2 full > racks of > PDP-8/E equipment. > > On 9/18/2021 3:40 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Sep 18, 2021, at 1:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex > came with me. This is not a bad idea as if one of the piles shift > and I get stuck it would be nice to have someone there to call 911. > > You might be joking, but this is no joke, it?s a *VERY* good > idea.? Back when my collection was in storage units, I took a > large vintage TV to the head.? Thankfully I was okay, but it could > have been much worse.? After that I started being more cautious. > > > >> Moral: Do not die with a lot of this stuff in your basement. We > were far more able to move this stuff 30 years ago when we were > young than today. > > Good point.? I was reminded of this a few months ago, while I > was working some of my old gear while on my Sabbatical.? The good > news, I don?t have a basement. :-) > > > > Zane > > > > > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Sep 18 21:04:42 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:04:42 -0400 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <6d5c33aa-863f-337a-b55e-2561ddcf0712@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-09-18 9:39 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I did finally dump the first wife.? The second one is just too good to > dump. > https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64153952.jpg > On 9/18/2021 8:36 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I'd dump the wife... >> >> Enviado do meu Tele-Movel >> >> Em s?b, 18 de set de 2021 22:33, Mike Katz via cctalk >> > escreveu: >> >> ??? I have a basement but I also have a wife who complains everytime I >> ??? bring >> ??? some orphaned computer part (or camera) home and to the basement.? In >> ??? her eyes it's all junk. >> >> ??? Which is worse, no basement or a wife ? >> >> ??? It was because of my first wife (now ex) that I sold my 2 full >> ??? racks of >> ??? PDP-8/E equipment. >> >> ??? On 9/18/2021 3:40 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> ??? > >> ??? >> On Sep 18, 2021, at 1:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk >> ??? > wrote: >> ??? >> >> ??? >> Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex >> ??? came with me. This is not a bad idea as if one of the piles shift >> ??? and I get stuck it would be nice to have someone there to call 911. >> ??? > You might be joking, but this is no joke, it?s a *VERY* good >> ??? idea.? Back when my collection was in storage units, I took a >> ??? large vintage TV to the head.? Thankfully I was okay, but it could >> ??? have been much worse.? After that I started being more cautious. >> ??? > >> ??? >> Moral: Do not die with a lot of this stuff in your basement. We >> ??? were far more able to move this stuff 30 years ago when we were >> ??? young than today. >> ??? > Good point.? I was reminded of this a few months ago, while I >> ??? was working some of my old gear while on my Sabbatical.? The good >> ??? news, I don?t have a basement. :-) >> ??? > >> ??? > Zane >> ??? > >> ??? > >> ??? > >> > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Sep 18 21:10:58 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:10:58 -0600 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <14428c97-2b2f-f5c6-1ba1-a3a33e506161@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 9/18/21 7:32 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Which is worse, no basement or a wife ? To all the wives out there: "no basement" -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Sep 18 22:20:44 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:20:44 -0700 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <14428c97-2b2f-f5c6-1ba1-a3a33e506161@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> <14428c97-2b2f-f5c6-1ba1-a3a33e506161@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <2068db09-151c-d525-f453-fcfc6cb624ff@jwsss.com> Wifey has phone numbers and knows about several of these lists. thanks Jim On 9/18/2021 7:10 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 9/18/21 7:32 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Which is worse, no basement or a wife ? > > To all the wives out there:? "no basement" > > > From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Sep 18 23:39:06 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 04:39:06 +0000 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <2068db09-151c-d525-f453-fcfc6cb624ff@jwsss.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> <14428c97-2b2f-f5c6-1ba1-a3a33e506161@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <2068db09-151c-d525-f453-fcfc6cb624ff@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20210919043906.GA25524@lonesome.com> On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 08:20:44PM -0700, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > Wifey has phone numbers and knows about several of these lists. ;-) From db at db.net Sun Sep 19 11:35:13 2021 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 12:35:13 -0400 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <20210919043906.GA25524@lonesome.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> <14428c97-2b2f-f5c6-1ba1-a3a33e506161@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <2068db09-151c-d525-f453-fcfc6cb624ff@jwsss.com> <20210919043906.GA25524@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 04:39:06AM +0000, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 08:20:44PM -0700, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > Wifey has phone numbers and knows about several of these lists. Reminds of that chat we had at BSDCan a few years ago eh? > > ;-) Diane -- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Sep 19 12:03:59 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 13:03:59 -0400 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <6d5c33aa-863f-337a-b55e-2561ddcf0712@telegraphics.com.au> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> <6d5c33aa-863f-337a-b55e-2561ddcf0712@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <6abd8fb1-8dc4-f2cf-4a83-629addcc4ac2@alembic.crystel.com> On 9/18/2021 10:04 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64153952.jpg No problem with stopping the stupid wife stuff, but this is an important issue: Cleaning out basement hoards like this is *NOT* easy, and if you have one make plans now for when you die. It can happen sooner than you think due to accident/whatnot. On the positive side this is a bit of a time capsule and we *did* get all the Perq software and documentation out on the tapes. That was a serious win apparently. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 15:57:27 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 13:57:27 -0700 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <6abd8fb1-8dc4-f2cf-4a83-629addcc4ac2@alembic.crystel.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> <6d5c33aa-863f-337a-b55e-2561ddcf0712@telegraphics.com.au> <6abd8fb1-8dc4-f2cf-4a83-629addcc4ac2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 1:39 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > On 9/18/2021 10:04 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64153952.jpg > > No problem with stopping the stupid wife stuff, but this is an important > issue: Cleaning out basement hoards like this is *NOT* easy, and if you > have one make plans now for when you die. It can happen sooner than you > think due to accident/whatnot. > > On the positive side this is a bit of a time capsule and we *did* get > all the Perq software and documentation out on the tapes. That was a > serious win apparently. > I'm still working through the tapes and I've had decent success with them, however if I may add to Chris's suggestions: don't leave tapes in a damp basement for 20+ years, it makes them difficult to read. All the more frustrating when they contain what may be the only surviving copy of various bits of software for an obscure workstation :). - Josh From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Sun Sep 19 16:13:44 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 16:13:44 -0500 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> <6d5c33aa-863f-337a-b55e-2561ddcf0712@telegraphics.com.au> <6abd8fb1-8dc4-f2cf-4a83-629addcc4ac2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <3795474d-99c1-3eaf-8fd2-96124ddc654c@12bitsbest.com> I'm sorry if I made a bad joke.? Please understand this was all tongue in cheek. As for plans, I had a massive heart attack in June and nearly died.?? 8 stents and a pacemaker later I am alive and kicking. My suggestion's are: Make a will. Put all of your real estate and investments in a trust with you and your wife (and possibly your next of kin) to avoid inheritance tax (I am no lawyer, so contact a lawyer on how to do this) Make sure there is a list of all bank account and credit card numbers some where where both of you can access it (a safety deposit box or home safe comes to mind). I would suggest that all of your passwords are kept in a password manager that both of you have access to or encrypted somewhere with a password you both know. In case you both were to die together, make sure your next of kin knows how to find or access the above information. If you have special requests for disposition of your property after you die, state it in your will or make a list and put it in the safety deposit box mentioned above. These are some of the things my wonderful wife and I did after my heat attack. Please forgive the morbid nature of this but my perspective has changed since the heart attack. On 9/19/2021 3:57 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 1:39 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 9/18/2021 10:04 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >>> https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64153952.jpg >> No problem with stopping the stupid wife stuff, but this is an important >> issue: Cleaning out basement hoards like this is *NOT* easy, and if you >> have one make plans now for when you die. It can happen sooner than you >> think due to accident/whatnot. >> >> On the positive side this is a bit of a time capsule and we *did* get >> all the Perq software and documentation out on the tapes. That was a >> serious win apparently. >> > I'm still working through the tapes and I've had decent success with them, > however if I may add to Chris's suggestions: don't leave tapes in a damp > basement for 20+ years, it makes them difficult to read. All the more > frustrating when they contain what may be the only surviving copy of > various bits of software for an obscure workstation :). > > - Josh From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Sep 19 17:58:51 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:58:51 -0400 Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads Message-ID: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, so out of the basement came a Micrapolis 1325 (the old Dec RD53 disk) with what appears to be stuck heads. Rotor tries to move under power but can only take out slack. Will move backwards a bit. Is this stuck head, and what would be the best way to free it? The reason I'm asking is this disk had a SA1000 adapter mounted under it so I am pretty sure it was a PERQ disk. Which means data may be priceless. And of course it's stuck. Thoughts? CZ From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 20:04:57 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:04:57 -0400 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 4:01 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex came with > me. .... > Are you taking pictures of the inventory and posting them somewhere? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Sep 19 20:27:24 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:27:24 -0400 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <83299b66-669a-acb6-ddfd-bf65d598a1e0@alembic.crystel.com> I took pictures about a year ago when I started this, should be... https://www.crystel.com/bob Right now I'm reading that 1525 disk, sometimes you get only one try in this game. Head 3 is not happy, but it is getting some of the data on retries. When done I'll put the image up for Ian to take a look at and see if it's worth asking someone to try recovering the remaining sectors. C On 9/19/2021 9:04 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 4:01 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex > came with > me. .... > > > Are you taking pictures of the inventory and posting them somewhere? From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 20:28:04 2021 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:28:04 -0400 Subject: Fred Cisin: Death of Clive SInclair Message-ID: Clive SInclair was a British entrepreneur who designed and built very small computers back in the early days of 8-bit computing. Whether he created a 'first' as Fred argues doesn't lessen his role in microcomputing history. Let's celebrate pioneers who gave us what we have today. Happy computing. Murray ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 19 20:46:14 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Death of Clive SInclair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2021, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Clive SInclair was a British entrepreneur who designed and built very small > computers back in the early days of 8-bit computing. Whether he created a > 'first' as Fred argues doesn't lessen his role in microcomputing history. > Let's celebrate pioneers who gave us what we have today. > Happy computing. > Murray ? He did some amazing stuff, particularly in bringing the prices down to where the general public could buy them. We'll never forget the ZX81, a wedge doorstop with a picture of a keyboard on it, that was a minimal computer that anybody could afford. He did not invent the pocket calculator. He used parts that had been designed by TI explicitly for calculators. But, he was an early and clever developer of cheap ones for the public. His role was not INVENTING, as everything that he made already existed, but engineering ways to make the inventions smaller and cheaper. And he was great at that. He will be missed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Sep 19 20:54:39 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:54:39 -0700 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <3795474d-99c1-3eaf-8fd2-96124ddc654c@12bitsbest.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <11F8F6B6-F076-4541-848A-22755DC0969F@avanthar.com> <1fd7ab71-71c9-3c33-430a-3ae744a3431d@12bitsbest.com> <6d5c33aa-863f-337a-b55e-2561ddcf0712@telegraphics.com.au> <6abd8fb1-8dc4-f2cf-4a83-629addcc4ac2@alembic.crystel.com> <3795474d-99c1-3eaf-8fd2-96124ddc654c@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On Sep 19, 2021, at 2:13 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I'm sorry if I made a bad joke. Please understand this was all tongue in cheek. > > As for plans, I had a massive heart attack in June and nearly died. 8 stents and a pacemaker later I am alive and kicking. > > My suggestion's are: > > Make a will. > Put all of your real estate and investments in a trust with you and your wife (and possibly your next of kin) to avoid inheritance tax (I am no lawyer, so contact a lawyer on how to do this) > Make sure there is a list of all bank account and credit card numbers some where where both of you can access it (a safety deposit box or home safe comes to mind). > I would suggest that all of your passwords are kept in a password manager that both of you have access to or encrypted somewhere with a password you both know. > In case you both were to die together, make sure your next of kin knows how to find or access the above information. > If you have special requests for disposition of your property after you die, state it in your will or make a list and put it in the safety deposit box mentioned above. > > These are some of the things my wonderful wife and I did after my heat attack. > > Please forgive the morbid nature of this but my perspective has changed since the heart attack. This is a very, very important point. At the start of Covid, I lost a very good friend to a heart attack. He was an incredibly knowledgable professional photographer. With a studio larger than most houses, and an insane amount of gear (including drum scanners). From what little I know, the story doesn?t have a happy ending. Both my wife and our eldest have a pretty good idea on the books, as well as the camera gear. They have less of an idea on the Classic Computer equipment, though I know they know it?s not worthless. They might have a better idea on the Video Games than me. Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Sep 19 21:06:53 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:06:53 -0400 Subject: More cleaning out the Bob basement In-Reply-To: <83299b66-669a-acb6-ddfd-bf65d598a1e0@alembic.crystel.com> References: <15cb8fb5-ccc0-37f2-cd5d-b6d6d9a5fa9f@alembic.crystel.com> <83299b66-669a-acb6-ddfd-bf65d598a1e0@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <21735bdc-d452-306d-bf94-c009e3ad1e8e@alembic.crystel.com> Got most of the data. About 300 bad sectors, most of which are on head 3. We'll see what it looks like... On 9/19/2021 9:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I took pictures about a year ago when I started this, should be... > https://www.crystel.com/bob > > Right now I'm reading that 1525 disk, sometimes you get only one try > in this game. Head 3 is not happy, but it is getting some of the data > on retries. When done I'll put the image up for Ian to take a look at > and see if it's worth asking someone to try recovering the remaining > sectors. > > C > > > On 9/19/2021 9:04 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 4:01 PM Chris Zach via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> ??? Went over to chip away at the Bob basement, and this time Alex >> ??? came with >> ??? me. .... >> >> >> Are you taking pictures of the inventory and posting them somewhere? From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Sep 19 21:18:19 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 19:18:19 -0700 Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads In-Reply-To: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> References: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> 20+ years ago, I remember people talking about disassembling these to fix the issue. I?ve never tried. Though I have one or two that might benefit from is. If the CLASSICCMP archives from ?97-2000 are online, I?d recommend running a search against them. Zane > On Sep 19, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Ok, so out of the basement came a Micrapolis 1325 (the old Dec RD53 disk) with what appears to be stuck heads. Rotor tries to move under power but can only take out slack. Will move backwards a bit. > > Is this stuck head, and what would be the best way to free it? The reason I'm asking is this disk had a SA1000 adapter mounted under it so I am pretty sure it was a PERQ disk. Which means data may be priceless. And of course it's stuck. > > Thoughts? > > CZ > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 22:58:31 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:58:31 -0400 Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads In-Reply-To: <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> References: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I have simply opened and physically moved the disk counter clockwise a turn, in a clean dust-free place. Or try putting in an oven on warm for 3 minutes a side, all four sides to loosen the grease. Might sound crazy but these have worked for me before Bill On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 10:18 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > 20+ years ago, I remember people talking about disassembling these to fix > the issue. I?ve never tried. Though I have one or two that might benefit > from is. If the CLASSICCMP archives from ?97-2000 are online, I?d > recommend running a search against them. > > Zane > > > > > > On Sep 19, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Ok, so out of the basement came a Micrapolis 1325 (the old Dec RD53 > disk) with what appears to be stuck heads. Rotor tries to move under power > but can only take out slack. Will move backwards a bit. > > > > Is this stuck head, and what would be the best way to free it? The > reason I'm asking is this disk had a SA1000 adapter mounted under it so I > am pretty sure it was a PERQ disk. Which means data may be priceless. And > of course it's stuck. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > CZ > > > > From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 23:17:06 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 04:17:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads In-Reply-To: References: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1181178156.2142291.1632111426022@mail.yahoo.com> I had suggested a hair-dryer, as recommended circa 20 years ago for drive "stiction" after disuse. It seems that worked. On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:58:57 PM PDT, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: I have simply opened and physically moved the disk counter clockwise a turn, in a clean dust-free place.? Or try putting in an oven on warm for 3 minutes a side, all four sides to loosen the grease.? Might sound crazy but these have worked for me before Bill On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 10:18 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > 20+ years ago, I remember people talking about disassembling these to fix > the issue.? I?ve never tried.? Though I have one or two that might benefit > from is.? If the CLASSICCMP archives from ?97-2000 are online, I?d > recommend running a search against them. > > Zane > > > > > > On Sep 19, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Ok, so out of the basement came a Micrapolis 1325 (the old Dec RD53 > disk) with what appears to be stuck heads. Rotor tries to move under power > but can only take out slack. Will move backwards a bit. > > > > Is this stuck head, and what would be the best way to free it? The > reason I'm asking is this disk had a SA1000 adapter mounted under it so I > am pretty sure it was a PERQ disk. Which means data may be priceless. And > of course it's stuck. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > CZ > > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Sep 20 01:13:58 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 02:13:58 -0400 Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads In-Reply-To: <1181178156.2142291.1632111426022@mail.yahoo.com> References: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> <1181178156.2142291.1632111426022@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <70fc9e62-7cea-87bf-79e8-dff4d3600ac9@alembic.crystel.com> That is what fixed it, hair dryer blowing around the unit. I stayed away from the circuit boards and just kept moving to different places. I thought a head was sticking, but it finally started to move a bit so it might have been a really gummed bearing. Or #3 head was stuck and loosened, most of the errors are on that head. Running it through the MFM tool got all but 200 or so sectors on the first pass, most errors were on head 3 but tapered off after cyl 500. Seems like a normal copy of Accent, no special information so it might not be worth taking the world apart to get it working. Thanks everyone. Back to On 9/20/2021 12:17 AM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > I had suggested a hair-dryer, as recommended circa 20 years ago for drive "stiction" after disuse. It seems that worked. > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:58:57 PM PDT, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I have simply opened and physically moved the disk counter clockwise a > turn, in a clean dust-free place.? Or try putting in an oven on warm for 3 > minutes a side, all four sides to loosen the grease.? Might sound crazy but > these have worked for me before > Bill > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 10:18 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: > >> 20+ years ago, I remember people talking about disassembling these to fix >> the issue.? I?ve never tried.? Though I have one or two that might benefit >> from is.? If the CLASSICCMP archives from ?97-2000 are online, I?d >> recommend running a search against them. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 19, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> Ok, so out of the basement came a Micrapolis 1325 (the old Dec RD53 >> disk) with what appears to be stuck heads. Rotor tries to move under power >> but can only take out slack. Will move backwards a bit. >>> Is this stuck head, and what would be the best way to free it? The >> reason I'm asking is this disk had a SA1000 adapter mounted under it so I >> am pretty sure it was a PERQ disk. Which means data may be priceless. And >> of course it's stuck. >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> CZ >>> >> > From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 14:02:19 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:02:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s.? Does anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot-PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller at?http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/??? ?I'm looking to install NetBSD, not VMS and I don't have any VMS systems on which to run PATCH.? ?Microvax 2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI interface.? So a SCSI emulator should be significantly higher performance than an MFM drive (either 30+ year old drive, or emulator). Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I haven't yet found other names. If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them). ? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 16:24:48 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 22:24:48 +0100 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <125a01d7ae65$f1cc31a0$d56494e0$@gmail.com> Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jonathan Stone > via cctalk > Sent: 20 September 2021 20:02 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; port-vax at netbsd.org > Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? > > I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s. Does > anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot- > PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller > at http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/ ? I'm looking to install NetBSD, not > VMS and I don't have any VMS systems on which to run PATCH. Microvax > 2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI > interface. So a SCSI emulator should be significantly higher performance > than an MFM drive (either 30+ year old drive, or emulator). > > Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I > haven't yet found other names. > If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for > the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them). > > From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:44:57 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 21:44:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <125a01d7ae65$f1cc31a0$d56494e0$@gmail.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> <125a01d7ae65$f1cc31a0$d56494e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1764374793.2467615.1632174297738@mail.yahoo.com> A web-page I found over the weekend said M27512-2, but right now i cannot find it. Several sources say 256KB PROM, and the photos show 4 EPROMs, which is consistent with 64Kx8-bit. I have to dash now, more in a few hours. On Monday, September 20, 2021, 02:24:51 PM PDT, wrote: Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jonathan Stone > via cctalk > Sent: 20 September 2021 20:02 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; port-vax at netbsd.org > Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? > > I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s.? Does > anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot- > PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller > at http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/ ?? I'm looking to install NetBSD, not > VMS and I don't have any VMS systems on which to run PATCH.? Microvax > 2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI > interface.? So a SCSI emulator should be significantly higher performance > than an MFM drive (either 30+ year old drive, or emulator). > > Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I > haven't yet found other names. > If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for > the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them). > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:27:57 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 22:27:57 -0400 Subject: Kennett Classic Sept 25th - Only 5 days to go! Message-ID: Reminder - The Kennett Classic Vintage Computing event is only 5 days away! Many have already pre-registered for the all day vintage computing workshop and there are still spaces for exhibitors available. After we break for dinner there will be a chip tunes show from 7PM - 11PM 115 S. Union St. Kennett Square, PA (across the street from the museum shop) 484 732 7041 What to do in Kennett Square? Here is a sampling of restaurants within walking distance of the event space - bring the family! https://www.kennettclassic.com/while-at-kennett-classic-food/ Hope to see you there! Bill kennettclassic.com <----directions and registration here From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 00:39:15 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 01:39:15 -0400 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <125a01d7ae65$f1cc31a0$d56494e0$@gmail.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> <125a01d7ae65$f1cc31a0$d56494e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:24 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed 4x 27512 (32-bit wide image) I have a MicroVAX 2000 but haven't managed to get that SCSI hack working myself. It's been many years since I last fiddled with it. -ethan From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 01:00:45 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:00:45 +0100 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> <125a01d7ae65$f1cc31a0$d56494e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <129a01d7aeae$066f9f00$134edd00$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: 21 September 2021 06:39 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Jonathan Stone > Subject: Re: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? > > On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:24 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk > wrote: > > Do you know what type of ROM/PROM is needed > > 4x 27512 (32-bit wide image) > > I have a MicroVAX 2000 but haven't managed to get that SCSI hack working > myself. > > It's been many years since I last fiddled with it. > > -ethan I am sure some one on here can blow those. I can probably do it. Its been ages since I did any and I am a long way from the programmer for a couple of weeks. I was going to try for my MV2000 but it not at the top of the "to-do" pile. Dave From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 03:35:33 2021 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 03:35:33 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads In-Reply-To: <70fc9e62-7cea-87bf-79e8-dff4d3600ac9@alembic.crystel.com> References: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> <1181178156.2142291.1632111426022@mail.yahoo.com> <70fc9e62-7cea-87bf-79e8-dff4d3600ac9@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: I have about a dozen or so 1325,1335, and 1355 drives here, also some earlier ones (some have the DEC label) RD50, 51,52, and even a few 54s. If anyone is interested, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 1:14 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > That is what fixed it, hair dryer blowing around the unit. I stayed away > from the circuit boards and just kept moving to different places. I > thought a head was sticking, but it finally started to move a bit so it > might have been a really gummed bearing. Or #3 head was stuck and > loosened, most of the errors are on that head. > > Running it through the MFM tool got all but 200 or so sectors on the > first pass, most errors were on head 3 but tapered off after cyl 500. > Seems like a normal copy of Accent, no special information so it might > not be worth taking the world apart to get it working. > > Thanks everyone. Back to > > > On 9/20/2021 12:17 AM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > I had suggested a hair-dryer, as recommended circa 20 years ago for > drive "stiction" after disuse. It seems that worked. > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:58:57 PM PDT, Bill Degnan via > cctalk wrote: > > > > I have simply opened and physically moved the disk counter clockwise a > > turn, in a clean dust-free place. Or try putting in an oven on warm for > 3 > > minutes a side, all four sides to loosen the grease. Might sound crazy > but > > these have worked for me before > > Bill > > > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 10:18 PM Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> 20+ years ago, I remember people talking about disassembling these to > fix > >> the issue. I?ve never tried. Though I have one or two that might > benefit > >> from is. If the CLASSICCMP archives from ?97-2000 are online, I?d > >> recommend running a search against them. > >> > >> Zane > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Sep 19, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> Ok, so out of the basement came a Micrapolis 1325 (the old Dec RD53 > >> disk) with what appears to be stuck heads. Rotor tries to move under > power > >> but can only take out slack. Will move backwards a bit. > >>> Is this stuck head, and what would be the best way to free it? The > >> reason I'm asking is this disk had a SA1000 adapter mounted under it so > I > >> am pretty sure it was a PERQ disk. Which means data may be priceless. > And > >> of course it's stuck. > >>> Thoughts? > >>> > >>> CZ > >>> > >> > > > From compoobah at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 07:16:21 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 05:16:21 -0700 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA Message-ID: <2d844c6481cf6af0a755d9feb517a9fa3d961b17.camel@gmail.com> Other places to post this: Sun Help Rescue list - mostly Sun but there is interest in other stuff too. http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue http://www.irixnet.org/ , forum not mailing list but seems to have taken over from Nekochan for SGI stuff. Sadly don't know of much in the OVMS sphere, the openvmshobbyist forum is basically dead now. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Sep 21 07:35:48 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 08:35:48 -0400 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: <2d844c6481cf6af0a755d9feb517a9fa3d961b17.camel@gmail.com> References: <2d844c6481cf6af0a755d9feb517a9fa3d961b17.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/21/21 8:16 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote: > Other places to post this: > > Sun Help Rescue list - mostly Sun but there is interest in other stuff > too. http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue > > > http://www.irixnet.org/ , forum not mailing list but seems to have > taken over from Nekochan for SGI stuff. > > Sadly don't know of much in the OVMS sphere, the openvmshobbyist forum > is basically dead now. > > Still have comp.os.vms bill From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Sep 21 07:30:24 2021 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:30:24 +0200 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s.? Does anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot-PROM patches from Wolfgang Moeller at?http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/??? ?I'm looking to install NetBSD, not VMS and I don't have any VMS systems on which to run PATCH.? ?Microvax 2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s I/O, which has to be via the SCSI interface.? So a SCSI emulator should be significantly higher performance than an MFM drive (either 30+ year old drive, or emulator). > > Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I haven't yet found other names. > If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay for the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them). > I've tried this almost 2 years before..and it worked "somewhat". An VS2000 booted up in the first stage but the NetBSD Kernel couldn't mount root since nothing in the loader expected a disk at the NCR SCSI interface on the VS2000. Ragge agreed to look at this (bootcode) on my VS2000, but I'vwe couldn't get an ssh connection from the internet to an VS3100 M76 to which the VS2000 console was connected to..to work.. For yure I could burn the proms, but I think I'm on the other side of the pond.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Sep 21 08:23:39 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 06:23:39 -0700 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: References: <2d844c6481cf6af0a755d9feb517a9fa3d961b17.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 21, 2021, at 5:35 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Sadly don't know of much in the OVMS sphere, the openvmshobbyist forum >> is basically dead now. > > Still have comp.os.vms > > bill Oddly enough, Facebook is also a good place for DEC and OpenVMS. Though I definitely prefer comp.os.vms, and a newsreader like ?tin? is a far better interface. Zane From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Sep 21 09:39:56 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:39:56 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> Jonathan Stone wrote: > > I recently rescued two Microvax-2000s but both have dead RD53s.?? Does > anyone have a ROMable image of the Microvax 2000/Vaxstation 2000 boot-PROM > patches from Wolfgang Moeller at??http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/????? ? > I'm looking to install NetBSD, not VMS and I don't have any VMS systems > on which to run PATCH.?? ??Microvax 2000 specs say it can sustain 3.3MB/s > I/O, which has to be via the SCSI interface.?? So a SCSI emulator should > be significantly higher performance than an MFM drive (either 30+ year > old drive, or emulator). > > Web-searching shows a Sean O'Banion has burned the PROMs successfully; I > haven't yet found other names. > If someone is willing to burn at least one set of EPROMs for me, I'd pay > for the service (either ship EPROMS, or pay for them). > > ? > I can probably burn a set of EPROMS. You don't say where you are but if "kiwi" in your email address is a hint, you are probably on nearly the exact opposite side of the planet from where I am (Ireland). If you want me to have a try, please send me eight 27256s, four for your microvax and four for mine. That will help cover the cost of the return postage for your four. If you want to try other options, maybe you could put some minimal boot code on a MOP server and have your MV2000 boot from that over the network before it tries to access your SCSI disk? Or put some code on a floppy disk and boot from that? If you have a suitable adapter cable, you can plug a 5.25in HD floppy drive into your MV2000 provided it can be jumpered suitably to look line an RX33. My experience with random PC drives says some can and some can't. A 3.5in drive can also be used but the ROMs are expecting an RX33 so an RX33 disk image should be written to the 3.5in floppy. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 21 10:44:01 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:44:01 -0400 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> He could also just fix the RD53 and boot off that, then transfer to the much faster SCSI. I still keep the RX02's around on my pdp11 because I can boot BRU64k for tape backups. It works. :-) On 9/21/2021 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > If you want to try other options, maybe you could put some minimal boot > code on a MOP server and have your MV2000 boot from that over the network > before it tries to access your SCSI disk? Or put some code on a floppy disk > and boot from that? If you have a suitable adapter cable, you can plug a > 5.25in HD floppy drive into your MV2000 provided it can be jumpered suitably > to look line an RX33. My experience with random PC drives says some can > and some can't. A 3.5in drive can also be used but the ROMs are expecting > an RX33 so an RX33 disk image should be written to the 3.5in floppy. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:00:22 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:00:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old rotating media. If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious performance reasons. Reseller price for a Maxtor XT-2190 (RD54) is just over US $1000. Disk Emulators are significantly cheaper. Thirty years ago I did 4.3BSD-Tahoe kernel hacking on a Vaxstation-II/RC with two RD53s. One of the spindles was very noisy, I think from the bearing. I really like the quiet of scsi2sd in my DECstation 5000s (and soon, Alpha 3000/500s and a /700). One of the reasons I got the 2000s is to format MFM drives for an RQDX3 (I don't have any PDP-11 CPUs). I have a CMD CQD-420 Qbus SCSi controller, and an MTI almost-equivalent. I've seen Glen Slick's reverse engineering of the PLD for the CDQ-200. I hope the newer MTI board "just works"; but if not, MFM is a fallback. On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 08:44:11 AM PDT, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: He could also just fix the RD53 and boot off that, then transfer to the much faster SCSI. I still keep the RX02's around on my pdp11 because I can boot BRU64k for tape backups. It works. :-) On 9/21/2021 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > If you want to try other options, maybe you could put some minimal boot > code on a MOP server and have your MV2000 boot from that over the network > before it tries to access your SCSI disk?? Or put some code on a floppy disk > and boot from that?? If you have a suitable adapter cable, you can plug a > 5.25in HD floppy drive into your MV2000 provided it can be jumpered suitably > to look line an RX33.? My experience with random PC drives says some can > and some can't.? A 3.5in drive can also be used but the ROMs are expecting > an RX33 so an RX33 disk image should be written to the 3.5in floppy. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From lars at nocrew.org Tue Sep 21 11:10:31 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:10:31 +0000 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image Message-ID: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, Does anyone have a (set of) ROM image(s) for the VAXstation 100? It might be interesting to attempt an emulator. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Sep 21 11:15:12 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:15:12 -0400 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old rotating media. > If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious performance reasons. Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs. Given that, an MFM emulator will significantly outperform a SCSI hard drive since it has no seek delays. David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 21 11:20:11 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:20:11 -0400 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/21/2021 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone wrote: > The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more > 30+ year old rotating media. > If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for > the obvious performance reasons. Been thinking about that: I'm tempted to open one of these RD53's, leave it open for an hour or two, then seal it up and run it till it explodes. The RD53 includes an internal filter between the top of the disk platter (where the internal fan exhausts) and a pipe to the spot where the heads are. That filter has always been quite clean, I'm guessing dust and such from the modern house would just get caught in that with no further issues. I'll put that on my "to do" pile. My main 11 runs with an MTI ESDI controller and a CDC 383mb half height drive. No issues at all with that generation of disk, it just purrs after sitting for 15 or so years. Same with the Hitachi 150mb drive. ESDI is pretty quick, enough for what I need these days. C From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 11:35:29 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:35:29 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 9:10 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > Does anyone have a (set of) ROM image(s) for the VAXstation 100? > It might be interesting to attempt an emulator. Did someone on the list buy this one? That was the only one that I have noticed for sale on eBay anytime recently. https://www.ebay.com/itm/294252478149 Rare Dec Vaxstation 100 Prototype Digital VAX Ended: Jul 07, 2021 Winning bid: US $256.00 From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 21 11:58:21 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:58:21 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? C On 9/21/2021 12:35 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 9:10 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk > wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Does anyone have a (set of) ROM image(s) for the VAXstation 100? >> It might be interesting to attempt an emulator. > Did someone on the list buy this one? That was the only one that I > have noticed for sale on eBay anytime recently. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/294252478149 > Rare Dec Vaxstation 100 Prototype Digital VAX > Ended: Jul 07, 2021 > Winning bid: US $256.00 From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Sep 21 12:03:51 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:03:51 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <9DA70E2B-9054-4F7D-957A-4B8AEDEC0C92@avanthar.com> I?m rather wondering how I missed that Auction. That?s the first time I?ve ever seen any photos of a VS100. I believe it required a UNIBUS card to connect it to the VAX. Zane > On Sep 21, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? > > > C > > On 9/21/2021 12:35 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 9:10 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Does anyone have a (set of) ROM image(s) for the VAXstation 100? >>> It might be interesting to attempt an emulator. >> Did someone on the list buy this one? That was the only one that I >> have noticed for sale on eBay anytime recently. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/294252478149 >> Rare Dec Vaxstation 100 Prototype Digital VAX >> Ended: Jul 07, 2021 >> Winning bid: US $256.00 From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Sep 13 00:22:17 2021 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:22:17 -0400 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: References: , <20210912000512.C6AA54E67F@mx2.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: <20210913052219.9E22D4E697@mx2.ezwind.net> On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 21:31, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > Ok, thanks! You're welcome. > I just tried mine again, it's a dud so I am going to have to figure it > out. First step was to see if the rectifier had any voltage so I > disconnected the + side and checked it with a voltmeter. With 120v > plugged in I saw 200v DC which is probably not too far off. That seems > to go to the inverter card, which I don't know what it's doing with > that. There's a reasonably complete theory of operation of the "B" power supply (which is what you have) in section IXB of the HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Computers Engineering and Reference Documentation. There were several revisions of the "B" supply, but they all used the same motherboard (as far as I know), so the various plug-in card functions would be pretty much equivalent across versions. > Is there a block schematic of what does what on this PS? Page IXB-6 of the above manual has one. There's also a troubleshooting flowchart on page IXC-3. Section IXC is specifically for your supply version and has the appropriate schematics, but the theory from the earlier "B" supply should be broadly applicable. -- Dave From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Mon Sep 13 13:15:48 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:15:48 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Sun Sparcstation Classic/LX PS Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Malte, Thanks. Yes, I saw the datasheet. Unfortunately it's an obsolete fan and Nidec doesn't seem to have a replacement in their newer lines. However the 4 wire version model E34386 with speed sensing has similar characteristics and there are several on eBay. Looking at the fan curves however, The E34386 doesn't do as well at the same pressure drop as the M33402. Sun Lunch boxes are already pretty strapped for adequate cooling so I'd rather get something a little stronger while not exceeding the M33402's 140mA rating too much. I did happen to find a vendor who sells the M33402 but the description was a bit ambiguous and I'm still waiting on confirmation that it's the same fan. http://www.nidecpg.com/fanpdfs/ta225dc.pdf On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 2:00 AM Malte Dehling wrote: > Hi Kurt, > > did you see the reply you got on the rescue at sunhelp.com mailing list? > > The fan is a 12v 60x25mm 14cfm according to the Nidec TA225DC datasheet. > > Cheers, > Malte > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 3:17 AM Kurt Nowak via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone by chance have a collection of fans? The one in my Sun Sparc >> Classic died and I am having a hard time finding a replacement with the >> same specs. Or can anyone recommend a good source? >> >> It's a Nidec BetaV, TA225DC, Model M33402-55 >> >> Thanks! >> >> -Kurt >> > From me at larbob.org Mon Sep 13 19:21:59 2021 From: me at larbob.org (Larkin Nickle) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:21:59 -0400 Subject: HP-UX on HP 9000/217 Message-ID: Hey all, According to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/9000_200/9000-200_periphSupp_Dec89.pdf (see PDF page 2), it seems as if HP-UX 5.1 should work on the 9000/217. http://hparchive.com/Catalogs/HP-Catalog-1986.pdf also seems to confirm this (PDF page 71 under Series 200 Bundled Systems, it's mentioned that the Model 217 can run single-user HP-UX). However, there seems to be conflicted information based on people that I've talked to and the hpmuseum page with a copy of HP-UX 5.1 whether it should work at all, whether 5.1 is a unified release where the boot floppy should work on both series 200 and 300, or whether there's another boot floppy for series 200 which apparently has not been archived. I recently obtained a Model 217 and would like to know if anyone has more info on this, the two people that I know of that have tried it get a hang on boot. Thanks, Larkin From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 14 20:31:44 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 21:31:44 -0400 Subject: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where In-Reply-To: <20210913052219.9E22D4E697@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210912000512.C6AA54E67F@mx2.ezwind.net> <20210913052219.9E22D4E697@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3db886e6-c192-98a7-a2da-e36e308e0f1a@alembic.crystel.com> Ah ok. So that first transistor on Q6 serves as a chopper to double the DC voltage up to 360v when using 120. When you reconfigure the jumpers for 240 you basically bypass that thing. I have 240 in my shed so I'll start by seeing if there is 360v on the input rail. If not then I'll re-jumper to 240 and see if it appears then. Then trace everything forward from there.... C On 9/13/2021 1:22 AM, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote: > On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 21:31, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > >> Ok, thanks! > > You're welcome. > > >> I just tried mine again, it's a dud so I am going to have to figure it >> out. First step was to see if the rectifier had any voltage so I >> disconnected the + side and checked it with a voltmeter. With 120v >> plugged in I saw 200v DC which is probably not too far off. That seems >> to go to the inverter card, which I don't know what it's doing with >> that. > > There's a reasonably complete theory of operation of the "B" power supply > (which is what you have) in section IXB of the HP 1000 M/E/F-Series > Computers Engineering and Reference Documentation. There were several > revisions of the "B" supply, but they all used the same motherboard (as far > as I know), so the various plug-in card functions would be pretty much > equivalent across versions. > > >> Is there a block schematic of what does what on this PS? > > Page IXB-6 of the above manual has one. There's also a troubleshooting > flowchart on page IXC-3. Section IXC is specifically for your supply > version and has the appropriate schematics, but the theory from the earlier > "B" supply should be broadly applicable. > > -- Dave > From mnealey at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 19:38:29 2021 From: mnealey at gmail.com (Mike Nealey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:38:29 -0500 Subject: Data General Terminal Question In-Reply-To: <8465f48f-9391-1e26-aa41-5f459e7f2d45@Wild-Hare.com> References: <1935A7E6-CC43-4BB2-AC8F-7FCCE23641CD@gmail.com> <8465f48f-9391-1e26-aa41-5f459e7f2d45@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: Hi! Sorry for the slow reply. I have attached some pictures of the terminal. Thanks for your help!! > On Sep 10, 2021, at 5:06 PM, Bruce Ray via cctech wrote: > > I am not aware of any 'standard' Data General CRT terminal with a model number greater than 1400 - but I recall the 52xx model numbers were used for special custom, hand-held wands, scanners and "mini-terminals" that may be connected to a standard DG terminal or keyboard. Just send a picture of the terminal front and back (especially the model and part information plates) to me off-list so I can better help you... > > Bruce > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Denver, Colorado USA > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > > On 9/10/2021 1:50 PM, Mike Nealey via cctech wrote: >> Hello all, >> I have a Data General Model 5220 MT terminal I picked up recently. Sadly, no keyboard. I am trying to find out if the terminal will use a standard AT keyboard (based on the connector) or if I need to find a special DG keyboard. Any help is appreciated.. in fact any information about this device is appreciated.. I?m finding nothing about this terminal on the interwebs! >> Thanks! From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 09:47:46 2021 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:47:46 -0400 Subject: DEC ML11 Message-ID: I've been working on a newly donated PDP 11/70 at the LSSM. I just discovered it has a ML11 --- an early Solid State Disk. Does anyone know of any schematics, user guides, etc? Thanks! From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Sep 20 10:05:52 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:05:52 -0400 Subject: DEC ML11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh *NEAT* I've heard about that, it was a Massbus device and I always wondered: Did it just go into the Massbus slots or does it have the big bulkhead and all connecting it to the 70? And of course: Can it do 18 bit mode for a KS10? Any pics and such would be good. C On 9/20/2021 10:47 AM, Mark Kahrs via cctech wrote: > I've been working on a newly donated PDP 11/70 at the LSSM. I just > discovered it has a ML11 --- an early Solid State Disk. Does anyone know > of any schematics, user guides, etc? > > Thanks! From commodorejohn at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 12:48:27 2021 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:48:27 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Per https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.9BSD/usr/doc/2.9_kernel.ms 2.9BSD had a driver for it. On 9/20/21, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. DEC ML11 (Mark Kahrs) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:47:46 -0400 > From: Mark Kahrs > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: DEC ML11 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I've been working on a newly donated PDP 11/70 at the LSSM. I just > discovered it has a ML11 --- an early Solid State Disk. Does anyone know > of any schematics, user guides, etc? > > Thanks! > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 14 > ************************************** > From eric.pruitt at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:03:49 2021 From: eric.pruitt at gmail.com (Eric Pruitt) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:03:49 -0700 Subject: Classic sale/give-away Jefferson, WI USA In-Reply-To: <20210918172721.1FE7A4E6FE@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210921020349.GA20959@sinister.lan.codevat.com> From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 12:07:07 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:07:07 -0700 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 9:00 AM Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > One of the reasons I got the 2000s is to format MFM drives for an RQDX3 (I don't have any PDP-11 CPUs). I have a CMD CQD-420 Qbus SCSi controller, and an MTI almost-equivalent. I've seen Glen Slick's reverse engineering of the PLD for the CDQ-200. I hope the newer MTI board "just works"; but if not, MFM is a fallback. The MTI QTS-30 board I have is essentially the same thing as a CMD CQD-200 board, just with different firmware. It can be converted into a CQD-200/TM functional equivalent by swapping the firmware EPROMs and CSR decode PAL. I haven't seen an MTI version of the CMD CQD-420 board. The CQD-420 is more similar to the CQD-220A than the CQD-220, with the standard CSR address decoding being done in the QBC0420 ASIC instead of in the PAL. The CQD-220A / CQD-420 PALs only decode the "special" disk/tape CSR address when that is selected via the address selection DIP switches. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 12:10:10 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:10:10 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: <9DA70E2B-9054-4F7D-957A-4B8AEDEC0C92@avanthar.com> References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <9DA70E2B-9054-4F7D-957A-4B8AEDEC0C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Zane Healy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?m rather wondering how I missed that Auction. That?s the first time > I?ve ever seen any photos of a VS100. I believe it required a UNIBUS card > to connect it to the VAX. > Yes, with a fiber optic link; here's a picture of the board (M7452) and cabling: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMo_cMPAR0aeAPKAYXJg And here's a pic of my VS100 running (connected to an 11/750 running 4.3BSD): https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMo_cUO4EiMWOHZVk8yg (Still trying to hunt down a VR100 monitor, in case anyone has one...) - Josh > > Zane > > > > On Sep 21, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a > VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? > > > > > > C > > > > On 9/21/2021 12:35 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 9:10 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk > >> wrote: > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> Does anyone have a (set of) ROM image(s) for the VAXstation 100? > >>> It might be interesting to attempt an emulator. > >> Did someone on the list buy this one? That was the only one that I > >> have noticed for sale on eBay anytime recently. > >> > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/294252478149 > >> Rare Dec Vaxstation 100 Prototype Digital VAX > >> Ended: Jul 07, 2021 > >> Winning bid: US $256.00 > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Sep 21 12:14:37 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:14:37 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <9DA70E2B-9054-4F7D-957A-4B8AEDEC0C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <81327E87-946F-473B-B199-0428A5938D47@avanthar.com> On Sep 21, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: > I?m rather wondering how I missed that Auction. That?s the first time I?ve ever seen any photos of a VS100. I believe it required a UNIBUS card to connect it to the VAX. > > Yes, with a fiber optic link; here's a picture of the board (M7452) and cabling: > > https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMo_cMPAR0aeAPKAYXJg > > And here's a pic of my VS100 running (connected to an 11/750 running 4.3BSD): > > https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMo_cUO4EiMWOHZVk8yg > > (Still trying to hunt down a VR100 monitor, in case anyone has one...) > > - Josh I?m officially seriously impressed, I had no idea anyone had one working! Any chance you can dump ROM?s for Lars? Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 21 12:18:38 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:18:38 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <9fadcc4b-bc5a-65ac-0f5b-0d384972f898@bitsavers.org> On 9/21/21 9:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? Smaller. I have access to one to take pictures and dump the firmware From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 12:23:45 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:23:45 +0200 Subject: Data General Terminal Question In-Reply-To: References: <1935A7E6-CC43-4BB2-AC8F-7FCCE23641CD@gmail.com> <8465f48f-9391-1e26-aa41-5f459e7f2d45@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sept 2021 at 19:06, Mike Nealey via cctalk wrote: > > Hi! > > Sorry for the slow reply. I have attached some pictures of the terminal. Thanks for your help!! It looks like you may be new to mailing lists. You should bottom-post -- i.e. your reply goes _underneath_ the trimmed text to which you're responding -- and you can't send attachments. Better put them on an image-hosting site somewhere and attach a link. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 12:38:14 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:38:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1102719482.310566.1632245894230@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 09:15:20 AM PDT, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Sep 21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >> >> The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old rotating media. >> If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious performance reasons. > > >Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs.? Given that, an MFM emulator will significantly outperform a SCSI hard >drive since it has no seek delays. > >David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too. My comparison was MFM emulators versus SCSI emulators. scs2sd is significantly cheaper than David Gesswein's MFM emulator; and higher performance. (IIRC, Gesswein's emulator transfers entire track images between SSD and RAM, but I may be remembering DREM documentation instead.). OTOH, for a machine which already has an MFM controller but no SCSI, an MFM emulator is cheaper than scs2sd plus SCSI controller. (At least for Qbus. At eBay prices, even RQDX3 plus distribution panel plus emulator, is cheaper than bootable SCSI controller plus SCSI emulator). SCSI performance will still be better. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 12:43:35 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:43:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <1228233637.314047.1632246215925@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 10:17:33 AM PDT, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a > VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? If old memories serve, you'd also need the Unibus-to-Qbus converter. I recall a discussion between someone from, I think DEC UK Reading, asking about a DEC Unibus-to-Qbus converteer. The other person said DEC didn't have such a device. then Vaxstation-100 was mentinoed. I expect you could get it to work as a Qbus device with 18-bit addresssing. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 12:43:35 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:43:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <1228233637.314047.1632246215925@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 10:17:33 AM PDT, Chris Zach via cctech wrote: > How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a > VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? If old memories serve, you'd also need the Unibus-to-Qbus converter. I recall a discussion between someone from, I think DEC UK Reading, asking about a DEC Unibus-to-Qbus converteer. The other person said DEC didn't have such a device. then Vaxstation-100 was mentinoed. I expect you could get it to work as a Qbus device with 18-bit addresssing. From tom94022 at comcast.net Tue Sep 21 13:01:27 2021 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:01:27 -0700 Subject: First SCSI HDD - Priam 806 8-inch? Message-ID: <005601d7af12$b3902740$1ab075c0$@comcast.net> It turns out the Priam 806 8-inch SCSI HDD circa 1984 is likely the first HDD to have a native SCSI interface. It shipped a few months before the Xebec Owl which is likely second. AFAIK all earlier units had a bridge controller to a more conventional interface. If anyone has any different info as to dates and models I would appreciate it. Does anyone know where a Priam 806 might be, or have any documentation? The former probably belongs in a museum and the latter on Bitsavers. I will help facilitate either. Tom t.gardner at computer.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 21 13:02:30 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:02:30 +0100 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1102719482.310566.1632245894230@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> <1102719482.310566.1632245894230@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <97877a30-223a-2328-f79b-2c0f3465acda@ntlworld.com> On 21/09/2021 18:38, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > (At least for Qbus. At eBay prices, even RQDX3 plus distribution panel plus emulator, is cheaper than bootable SCSI controller plus SCSI emulator). SCSI performance will still be better. > My recollection is that the MicroVAX 2000 SCSI isn't complete and was only intended for the tape unit. Whether its performance beats an RD54 will be interesting to see. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 13:03:45 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:03:45 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: <1228233637.314047.1632246215925@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1228233637.314047.1632246215925@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 10:43 AM Jonathan Stone via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 10:17:33 AM PDT, Chris Zach via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > How the hell did I miss *that*? Cool beans device, I've never heard of a > > VS100. Was it in a Rainbow sized box or a Pro/350 box? > > If old memories serve, you'd also need the Unibus-to-Qbus converter. I > recall a discussion between someone from, I think DEC UK Reading, asking > about a DEC Unibus-to-Qbus converteer. The other person said DEC didn't > have such a device. then Vaxstation-100 was mentinoed. I expect you could > get it to work as a Qbus device with 18-bit addresssing. > No, there's no QBus involved here. The M7452 "UNIBUS Window Module" connects the VS100 to the VAX via a fiber-optic link. (DEC did make a Unibus to Qbus adapter, the DW11-B, but it was unrelated to the VS100) - Josh From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 13:25:28 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:25:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1228233637.314047.1632246215925@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <504800845.331393.1632248728297@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 11:04:22 AM PDT, Josh Dersch wrote: [...] >No, there's no QBus involved here.? The M7452 "UNIBUS Window Module" connects the VS100 to the VAX via a fiber-optic link. thanks for the correction. I wonder what I was mis-remembering. maybe a QBus-to-Unibus? ? From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 13:26:13 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <97877a30-223a-2328-f79b-2c0f3465acda@ntlworld.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <01S42QO5ZOD28WW4ZT@beyondthepale.ie> <6bdd4bc3-da35-3f96-6279-85f10a5a6775@alembic.crystel.com> <1600013241.251538.1632240022872@mail.yahoo.com> <1102719482.310566.1632245894230@mail.yahoo.com> <97877a30-223a-2328-f79b-2c0f3465acda@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <639134142.329409.1632248773914@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 11:02:38 AM PDT, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > My recollection is that the MicroVAX 2000 SCSI isn't complete and was > only intended for the tape unit. Whether its performance beats an RD54 > will be interesting to see. The ROM/VMB support certainly isn't "complete". The NCR5380 itself can do SCSI for both disks and tapes. My comparison point would probably be MFM emulator versus SCSI2SD v5.2. Documentation, http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/ncr_symbios/scsi/NCR_SCSI_Engineering_Notebook_Rev2_Oct85.pdf , says the NCR538x didn't support synchronous SCSI until the 5386S. The SCSI devices would have to avoid ID 0, as that's what the MV2000 ROM uses. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 13:40:17 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:40:17 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1228233637.314047.1632246215925@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:04 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > (DEC did make a Unibus to Qbus adapter, the DW11-B, but it was unrelated to > the VS100) Yes. I have one. It came in a PDP-11/34 so they could install an IBV11 on a Unibus machine for a Physics Department. Much older than the VS100. -ethan From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Sep 21 14:05:32 2021 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:05:32 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/73 boot issues Message-ID: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi all, My PDP-11/73 has started misbehaving after several years of being very stable. It is showing symptoms similar to when I've forgotten to enable the LTC in the past, except this time, it is enable. Power supply seems good - +5V, +12V, all seems there and appears to be stable. I've probed the LTC going onto the backplane and I'm getting 50Hz. It looks a tad noisy, not sure if this is a problem. I will see if I can get a picture of it, but it has very distinct rises and falls, so hopefully that's ok. Looks to be about 50% duty cycle. I've attempted several builds of the kernel, including the out-of-the-box build from 2.11BSD distribution. I've also compiled a shrunk down kernel without a bunch of devices I don't have, but it still fails to work. I am using a SCSI2SD so it's easy for me to copy images and test them in SIMH - they all boot fine in SIMH with a similar setup (mscp, tmscp, 11/73, 1MB-ish RAM). Does anyone have any ideas what might be causing this? I've run out of ideas unfortunately. I'll stick a dump of the boot below, with debug flag passed showing output from autoconfig. I've also tried it without the tmscp card - just CPU, RAM and Emulex UC07 in MSCP mode for scsi disk. I have tried it with less memory, and I've tried removing the halt jumper from the 11/73 board (W5 if I remember correctly) Cheers, Aaron --------- ^C BOOT> DU 0 73Boot from ra(0,0,0) at 0172150 : ra(0,0,0)unix -D Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150 2.11 BSD UNIX #116: Wed Dec 31 18:01:57 CST 1969 root at localhost.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC ra0: Ver 5 mod 13 ra0: RA81 size=1216601 phys mem = 1179648 avail mem = 959040 user mem = 307200 _hkprobe = 0 _hkattach = 143330 _hkVec = 0 hkintr = 120 _htprobe = 0 _htattach = 143550 _htVec = 0 htintr = 150 _raprobe = 0 _raattach = 34270 _raVec = 34200 raintr = 100 _rkprobe = 0 _rkattach = 144650 _rkVec = 0 rkintr = 130 _rlprobe = 0 _rlattach = 144770 _rlVec = 0 rlintr = 110 _tmprobe = 0 _tmattach = 143610 _tmVec = 0 tmintr = 160 _tmsprobe = 0 _tmsattach = 143740 _tmsVec = 143730 tmsintr = 200 _tsprobe = 0 _tsattach = 143660 _tsVec = 0 tsintr = 170 _xpprobe = 0 _xpattach = 0 _xpVec = 0 xpintr = 0 endvec = 1000 _conf_int = 16124 CGOOD = 14 CBAD = 24 _nextiv = 5500 trap = 4150 _version = 17400 KERN_NONSEP = 0 Grab 177440 = 36556hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped: No CSR. Grab 172440 = 36556ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped: No CSR. Grab 172150 = 0Grab 156 = 240Grab 154 = 100Stuff 14 @ 154 Stuff 340 @ 156 probe ra: return conf_int:Stuff 100 @ 154 Stuff 240 @ 156 ra ? csr 172150 vector 154 bad probe value 224. Grab 177400 = 36556rk ? csr 177400 vector 220 skipped: No CSR. Grab 174400 = 36556rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No CSR. Grab 172520 = 36556tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No CSR. Grab 174500 = 0Grab 262 = 0Grab 260 = 0tms ? csr 174500 vector 260 interrupt vector already in use. Grab 172520 = 36556ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No CSR. xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No autoconfig routines. At this point it is stuck no matter how long I wait. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 14:16:54 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:16:54 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/73 boot issues In-Reply-To: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 12:05 PM Aaron Jackson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > My PDP-11/73 has started misbehaving after several years of being very > stable. It is showing symptoms similar to when I've forgotten to enable > the LTC in the past, except this time, it is enable. > > Power supply seems good - +5V, +12V, all seems there and appears to be > stable. I've probed the LTC going onto the backplane and I'm getting > 50Hz. It looks a tad noisy, not sure if this is a problem. I will see if > I can get a picture of it, but it has very distinct rises and falls, so > hopefully that's ok. Looks to be about 50% duty cycle. > > I've attempted several builds of the kernel, including the > out-of-the-box build from 2.11BSD distribution. I've also compiled a > shrunk down kernel without a bunch of devices I don't have, but it still > fails to work. I am using a SCSI2SD so it's easy for me to copy images > and test them in SIMH - they all boot fine in SIMH with a similar setup > (mscp, tmscp, 11/73, 1MB-ish RAM). > > Does anyone have any ideas what might be causing this? I've run out of > ideas unfortunately. I'll stick a dump of the boot below, with debug > flag passed showing output from autoconfig. > > I've also tried it without the tmscp card - just CPU, RAM and Emulex > UC07 in MSCP mode for scsi disk. I have tried it with less memory, and > I've tried removing the halt jumper from the 11/73 board (W5 if I > remember correctly) > > Cheers, > Aaron > > --------- > ^C > BOOT> DU 0 > > 73Boot from ra(0,0,0) at 0172150 > : ra(0,0,0)unix -D > Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150 > > 2.11 BSD UNIX #116: Wed Dec 31 18:01:57 CST 1969 > root at localhost.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC > > ra0: Ver 5 mod 13 > ra0: RA81 size=1216601 > > phys mem = 1179648 > This is an interesting amount of physical memory to report (1152K). What memory board(s) do you have installed? Other than that, this output looks sane to me. I'd suggest booting XXDP and running CPU, memory diagnostics from there. - Josh From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Sep 21 14:21:08 2021 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:21:08 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/73 boot issues In-Reply-To: References: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87fstxohuj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> > > This is an interesting amount of physical memory to report (1152K). What > memory board(s) do you have installed? > > Other than that, this output looks sane to me. I'd suggest booting XXDP > and running CPU, memory diagnostics from there. > > - Josh Thanks, I forgot about XXDP. I have ran a memory test from the boot ROM which came back ok. The unusual amount of RAM comes from two MSV11-PL 512K cards, plus the 128K from MXV11-BF. Thanks, Aaron From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 14:26:43 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:26:43 -0400 Subject: Toad1 XKL version of TOPS20 v7 Message-ID: I have noted that the Computer History Museum has a number of donations from XKL re Toad1. Rich Alderson might be the resident expert for this set of questions. two questions are thus prompted, and a third teased. 1. Does that XKL version run on the KLH10 emulator? 2. Is the tape CHM has been archived anywhere it might be available for download? and the teaser 3. Has anyone created an SSH Server for TOPS20? thanks bob smith From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 21 14:31:01 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:31:01 -0700 Subject: Toad1 XKL version of TOPS20 v7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c9ed31d-d4b2-9d14-953b-c3d8813e03c0@bitsavers.org> On 9/21/21 12:26 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > I have noted that the Computer History Museum has a number of > donations from XKL re Toad1. > Rich Alderson might be the resident expert for this set of questions. Why would you think that? CHM != LCM+L From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 21 14:33:44 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:33:44 -0700 Subject: Toad1 XKL version of TOPS20 v7 In-Reply-To: <3c9ed31d-d4b2-9d14-953b-c3d8813e03c0@bitsavers.org> References: <3c9ed31d-d4b2-9d14-953b-c3d8813e03c0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <024cb867-cf73-c7ce-94ef-04370c51cc28@bitsavers.org> On 9/21/21 12:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 9/21/21 12:26 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: >> I have noted that the Computer History Museum has a number of >> donations from XKL re Toad1. >> Rich Alderson might be the resident expert for this set of questions. > > Why would you think that? > > CHM != LCM+L anyway, I haven't read them. I didn't even know we had them https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102773832 I'll put it on the to-do list. Things have been slow since I have limited access to my lab. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Sep 21 14:34:44 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:34:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/73 boot issues In-Reply-To: <87fstxohuj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <87fstxohuj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: Can an MXV11 be used in a 22 bit system? I thought it was an 18 bit device? That could cause all sorts of hilarity. C On 9/21/2021 3:21 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> This is an interesting amount of physical memory to report (1152K). What >> memory board(s) do you have installed? >> >> Other than that, this output looks sane to me. I'd suggest booting XXDP >> and running CPU, memory diagnostics from there. >> >> - Josh > Thanks, I forgot about XXDP. I have ran a memory test from the boot ROM > which came back ok. > > The unusual amount of RAM comes from two MSV11-PL 512K cards, plus the > 128K from MXV11-BF. > > Thanks, > Aaron > From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 15:17:49 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:17:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1793240500.372979.1632255469833@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 05:39:23 AM PDT, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: >I've tried this almost 2 years before..and it worked "somewhat". >An VS2000 booted up in the first stage but the NetBSD Kernel couldn't >mount root since nothing in the loader expected a disk at the NCR SCSI >interface on the VS2000. Ragge agreed to look at this (bootcode) on my >VS2000, but I'vwe couldn't get an ssh connection from the internet to >an VS3100 M76 to which the VS2000 console was connected to..to work.. I once "owned" the NetBSD MIPS port, and I've done VAX assembly and kernel code j(e.g., VMS device drivers). If I can't figure it out by comparison to 3100 code, I'll contact Ragge and set up remote access via a BCC08, a NetBSD laptop, and serial. (At least one of the VS200s is jumpered to Vaxstation mode, and I have two GPX daughter-cards on order.) >For yure I could burn the proms, but I think I'm on the other side of >the pond.. I am located in the San Francisco Bay Area. I came here for grad school and never left. It may be time for me to buy a PROM programmer. Anyone got recommendations for a budget device? "Amazon's choice" is https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082D5NQ2P. The costlier option includes 10 different sockets, and it claims support for 29xxx and 29Cxxx EPROMs, plus lots of others. The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but expensive, and I don't know where to find software. From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Sep 21 15:37:24 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:37:24 +0000 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <1793240500.372979.1632255469833@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> <1793240500.372979.1632255469833@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but expensive, and I don't know where to find software. If it is just a regular Data I/O underneath, head over to the groups.io page: https://groups.io/g/DataioEPROM/ Thanks, Jonathan From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 15:41:48 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:41:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> <1793240500.372979.1632255469833@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1889810305.382940.1632256908650@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 01:37:28 PM PDT, Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but expensive, and I don't know where to find software. >If it is just a regular Data I/O underneath, head over to the groups.io page: > >https://groups.io/g/DataioEPROM/ The eBay listing is https://www.ebay.com/itm/303208951366. Nostalgic though it is, I'd prefer to put the price difference into vintage computers, rather than vintage PROM programmers. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Sep 21 16:13:26 2021 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 22:13:26 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/73 boot issues In-Reply-To: References: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <87fstxohuj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <21789e85-2aa4-3b61-db31-b21fd8c08a03@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/09/2021 20:34, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Can an MXV11 be used in a 22 bit system? I thought it was an 18 bit > device? MXV11-B is 22-bit. MXV11-A is 18-bit but supposedly can be used in a 22-bit system if the RAM is disabled. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Sep 21 16:30:23 2021 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 22:30:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/73 boot issues In-Reply-To: <21789e85-2aa4-3b61-db31-b21fd8c08a03@dunnington.plus.com> References: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <87fstxohuj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <21789e85-2aa4-3b61-db31-b21fd8c08a03@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <87czp1obv4.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Pete Turnbull via cctalk writes: > On 21/09/2021 20:34, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Can an MXV11 be used in a 22 bit system? I thought it was an 18 bit >> device? > > MXV11-B is 22-bit. MXV11-A is 18-bit but supposedly can be used in a > 22-bit system if the RAM is disabled. Yeah this is a 22 bit card. Josh sent me an xxdp image which I could easily boot from my scsi2sd (thanks!). Seems to be reporting an error with the CPU unfortunately: ]] .R ZKDJ?? ]] ZKDJB2.BIC ]] ]] ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS ]] ERROR # =001166 ]] ERROR PC =040662 ]] 043632 This happens regardless of whether W9 is installed or not (supposedly disables the LTC register on the CPU?) I'll see if I can borrow another CPU card form a friend this weekend. Unless anyone else has any ideas? Another suggestion on IRC was to disable the PSU LTC and enable the LTC on MXV11 but will need to look up some details on how to do this. Thanks, Aaron From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 17:00:21 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:00:21 -0400 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> <1793240500.372979.1632255469833@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 4:37 PM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but expensive, and I don't know where to find software. > > If it is just a regular Data I/O underneath, head over to the groups.io page: > > https://groups.io/g/DataioEPROM/ One of my Fall projects is to figure out why my Data I/O 29A isn't working. It's been sitting for years and when I got it out last year, it didn't pass self-test. I need to spend some time looking over the posts in that group to see if my symptoms are common. That said, unless you need to program stuff other than 2716-27512 and up in that line, an old Data I/O is probably not what you need. If you need to program chips made before 1985, then it might be a good choice. -ethan From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Sep 21 17:00:48 2021 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:00:48 -0300 Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210921220053.E14341480CBB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Fred Cisin wrote on Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:45:04 -0700 (PDT) > On Sat, 18 Sep 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Of course, Busicom was the first programed microprocessor driven > > calculator, it wasn't the first calculator using calculator ICs. That is > > what Busicom was trying to compete with, when going to Intel in the > > first place. > > I think that the Sinclair used TI calculator ICs. > Unless he had a special "in" with TI, AND was fastest to market, then it > is doubtful that he could legitimately claim to be "FIRST". The TI people were selling their chip as a simple four operation calculator. Here is what the Sinclair people did with it: http://files.righto.com/calculator/sinclair_scientific_simulator.html An interesting project that Sir Clive was involved in was the wafer scale integration effort by Ivor Catt. http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/8199/Anamartic-Limited/ The goal was to eventually do what the Cerebras people are now doing (with lots of positive press), but their first products attempted to replace hard disks with battery-backed wafer scale SRAMs. The many-core processors would come later, but as HD densities took off (after only having grown slowly from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s) the investors pulled out. -- Jecel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Sep 21 17:15:09 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:09 -0700 Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: <20210921220053.E14341480CBB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20210921220053.E14341480CBB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <3f3e52a5-858b-8d29-dc69-a6b898fa588f@jwsss.com> I have a version of a full size 8" floppy drive footprint (or hard drive) which is wafer scale storage. thanks Jim On 9/21/2021 3:00 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctalk wrote: > An interesting project that Sir Clive was involved in was the wafer > scale integration effort by Ivor Catt. > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/8199/Anamartic-Limited/ > > The goal was to eventually do what the Cerebras people are now doing > (with lots of positive press), but their first products attempted to > replace hard disks with battery-backed wafer scale SRAMs. The many-core > processors would come later, but as HD densities took off (after only > having grown slowly from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s) the investors > pulled out. > > -- Jecel From cc at alderson.users.panix.com Tue Sep 21 17:27:22 2021 From: cc at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Toad1 XKL version of TOPS20 v7 In-Reply-To: (message from Bob Smith via cctalk on Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:26:43 -0400) References: Message-ID: <4HDbdk3qkSzfYm@panix5.panix.com> > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:26:43 -0400 > From: Bob Smith via cctalk > I have noted that the Computer History Museum has a number of donations from > XKL re Toad1. Look again. That system, the documentation, and the backup tapes, were donated by HEWLETT-PACKARD CORPORATION, not by XKL. Tim Litt was responsible for this donation, probably to keep ev erything from simply being binned by the HP folks. > Rich Alderson might be the resident expert for this set of questions. Quite likely. ;-> > two questions are thus prompted, and a third teased. > 1. Does that XKL version run on the KLH10 emulator? Absolutely not. KLH10 emulates a KL-10 processor with Massbus peripherals, which is what Ken Harrenstien was interested in doing. Neither he, nor the late Mark Crispin after he took over maintenance on KLH10, had access to Toad-1 internals. Major differences between the two processors: 1. The XKL-1 CPU (and all follow-on processors) implement the full 30-bit extended addressing defined for release 4 of TOPS-20 by DEC. The KL-10 implements a 23-bit subset. 2. In conjunction with this, the XMG-1 memory card provides 32MW of memory, contrasted with the physical maximum of 4MW in the KL-10. 3. The XRH-1 I/O processor implements 4 FASTWIDE SCSI-2 channels (top of the line in 1995 when the system was introduced), rather than Massbus. 4. The XNI-1 Ethernet board implements 4 10baseT interfaces compatible with the Stanford MEIS rather than the DEC NIA-20. 5. The backplane of the Toad-1 system implements a completely different model of inter-card interactions than the KL-10, so that so-called "I/O instructions" are completely different from those of the KL-10. They resemble, but are unrelated in detail to, the I/O instructions on the KS-10 processor in the DECSYSTEM-2020. With all these differences, there is no way for KLH10 to even begin to execute the XKL version of the TOPS-20 monitor. > 2. Is the tape CHM has been archived anywhere it might be available > for download? That's a question for Al Kossow, rather than for me, since I was never associated with CHM other than as an admirer. > and the teaser > 3. Has anyone created an SSH Server for TOPS20? Not to my knowledge, although it has been attempted several times. Although it has not been fully set up yet, AFAIK, the folks at SDF.org have just acquired an XKL DarkStar box in the TOPS-20 engine configuration, and will be moving from a KLH-10 emulation to actual PDP-10 hardware in the very near future. This is a TOAD-2, like those run by LCM+L for the last few years of its operation. Rich From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Sep 21 18:41:36 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 23:41:36 +0000 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: References: <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1123000710.2425276.1632164539056@mail.yahoo.com> <1793240500.372979.1632255469833@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > One of my Fall projects is to figure out why my Data I/O 29A isn't > working. It's been sitting for years and when I got it out last year, > it didn't pass self-test. I need to spend some time looking over the > posts in that group to see if my symptoms are common. The diagnostics are pretty good, and the service manual for the base + pack of choice will get you through it! Let me know if you can't get it going. > That said, unless you need to program stuff other than 2716-27512 and > up in that line, an old Data I/O is probably not what you need. If > you need to program chips made before 1985, then it might be a good > choice. Agreed, not necessary to go with a Data I/O if you don't need to program old or weird stuff. And certainly not at the price of that eBay one, with the limited pack it has, and no front panel/display. Thanks, Jonathan From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Sep 22 00:52:12 2021 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:52:12 +0200 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images?] Message-ID: ..the compatible Device for the Labtool-48 is the Dataman-48, Software is here: https://www.dataman.com/dataman-4848lv-resources Regards, Holm ----- Forwarded message from Holm Tiffe ----- Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:45:32 +0200 From: Holm Tiffe To: Jonathan Stone Subject: Re: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? Ok..sounds good so far.. I have an Labtool-48 Programmer for example..thats an old Promer with an parallelport. Software is available for an OEM Device and I'm using that. Forgot in the moment what this was..but I can check that later. There are at least 3 Versions of the Promer that are more or less incompatible to the others, there are "upgrades", with other PCBs in there..last variant is able to do USB.. I'm owning the "plain" variant. Another from my stuff is an HiLo ALL07, and I have German made GALEP III and GALEP IV. All with Centronics Interface.. good Promers. I think it is ok to have old programmers (and old programmer-conterollers (old Laptops)) dedicated to them. I never had to program 3,3V Eproms an such things.. every time old Devices like Eproms, GALS or even TTL ROMs. 82S100 too.. I'm a german.. and sending Eproms from here seems to be the worst case to me... Regards, Holm A A A A A A A A Jonathan Stone wrote: > > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 05:39:23 AM PDT, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > > >I've tried this almost 2 years before..and it worked "somewhat". > >An VS2000 booted up in the first stage but the NetBSD Kernel couldn't > >mount root since nothing in the loader expected a disk at the NCR SCSI > >interface on the VS2000. Ragge agreed to look at this (bootcode) on my > >VS2000, but I'vwe couldn't get an ssh connection from the internet to > >an VS3100 M76 to which the VS2000 console was connected to..to work.. > > I once "owned" the NetBSD MIPS port, and I've done VAX assembly and kernel code j(e.g., VMS device drivers). If I can't figure it out by comparison to 3100 code, I'll contact Ragge and set up remote access via a BCC08, a NetBSD laptop, and serial. (At least one of the VS200s is jumpered to Vaxstation mode, and I have two GPX daughter-cards on order.) > > >For yure I could burn the proms, but I think I'm on the other side of > >the pond.. > > I am located in the San Francisco Bay Area. I came here for grad school and never left. > > It may be time for me to buy a PROM programmer. Anyone got recommendations for a budget device? "Amazon's choice" is https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082D5NQ2P. The costlier option includes 10 different sockets, and it claims support for 29xxx and 29Cxxx EPROMs, plus lots of others. > > The DEC-badged Data-IO " on eBay is tempting, but expensive, and I don't know where to find software. -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 01:48:17 2021 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 08:48:17 +0200 Subject: R.I.P. Clive Sinclair In-Reply-To: <20210921220053.E14341480CBB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20210921220053.E14341480CBB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 00:01, Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctalk wrote: > The TI people were selling their chip as a simple four operation > calculator. Here is what the Sinclair people did with it: > > http://files.righto.com/calculator/sinclair_scientific_simulator.html And that's where the "world's first" comes from: ".. the world's first single-chip scientific calculator," - i.e. not the first pocket calculator, of course. Just the first single-chip scientific calculator, or at least the first low-priced one (and the smallest one too, at the time). From lars at nocrew.org Wed Sep 22 02:14:30 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:14:30 +0000 Subject: VAXstation 100 ROM image In-Reply-To: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk's message of "Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:10:31 +0000") References: <7wv92thpu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wbl4lgjzd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> > Does anyone have a (set of) ROM image(s) for the VAXstation 100? > It might be interesting to attempt an emulator. I think the machine has some historical interest. Barbara Liskov's CLU group received a number of VS100 terminals for their VAX. This prompted Bob Scheifler to create X. CLU even got X libraries before C. X10 comes with software for the VS100 "version 3.10", but it goes into RAM through the ROM firmware. The other main concern, emulation-wise, would be the blitter with its separate microcode. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 06:46:53 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 06:46:53 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads In-Reply-To: <70fc9e62-7cea-87bf-79e8-dff4d3600ac9@alembic.crystel.com> References: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> <1181178156.2142291.1632111426022@mail.yahoo.com> <70fc9e62-7cea-87bf-79e8-dff4d3600ac9@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0637355b-5390-b4db-a953-92fe2b8675a9@gmail.com> On 9/20/21 1:13 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Running it through the MFM tool got all but 200 or so sectors on the first > pass, most errors were on head 3 but tapered off after cyl 500. Seems like > a normal copy of Accent, no special information so it might not be worth > taking the world apart to get it working. What's this "MFM tool" of which you speak? Something specific to the PERQ world? I've got various ST506/412-type drives formatted against various controllers in various systems that might benefit from a snapshot. cheers Jules From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Sep 22 06:54:44 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:54:44 +0200 Subject: Micropolis 1525 stuck heads In-Reply-To: <0637355b-5390-b4db-a953-92fe2b8675a9@gmail.com> References: <646d69be-8ae4-78a1-b940-676331d44912@alembic.crystel.com> <3B25D58E-8DB9-470D-B615-3D256A410C7F@avanthar.com> <1181178156.2142291.1632111426022@mail.yahoo.com> <70fc9e62-7cea-87bf-79e8-dff4d3600ac9@alembic.crystel.com> <0637355b-5390-b4db-a953-92fe2b8675a9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4406c528-9211-5228-02ef-2210dee8eefa@greenmail.ch> On 22.09.21 13:46, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 9/20/21 1:13 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Running it through the MFM tool got all but 200 or so sectors on the first pass, most errors were on head 3 but tapered off after cyl 500. Seems like a normal copy of Accent, no special information so it might not be worth taking the world apart to get it working. > > What's this "MFM tool" of which you speak? Something specific to the PERQ world? I've got various ST506/412-type drives formatted against various controllers in various systems that might benefit from a snapshot. > David Gesswein's MFM-reader : https://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/mfm.shtml From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 22 07:21:32 2021 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:21:32 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VMS system Message-ID: Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help! I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit. Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to install or use it. Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it possible to send files to it from my Linux box? I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait. Cheers Phil. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 07:44:36 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:44:36 +0200 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 14:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. I like VMS but I can't claim much expertise, unfortunately. I have sysadminned a few boxes, but never brought one up from scratch. However I did experimentally bootstrap an instance in SIMH on Linux and it worked fine. I didn't license it or do much but it worked. > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've > filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning > while I wait. HP no longer owns VMS, AFAIK. It is now owned by VSI, VMS Software Inc. https://vmssoftware.com/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Wed Sep 22 07:51:35 2021 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:51:35 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Phil I'm not sure if it helps, but I documented installing OpenVMS on a Raspberry Pi a while ago at https://blog.poggs.com/2020/04/21/openvms-on-a-raspberry-pi/ Peter On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 13:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help! > > I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a > cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My > goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the compiler > a bit. > > Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to > install or use it. > > Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make > it possible to send files to it from my Linux box? > > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. > > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've > filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning > while I wait. > > > Cheers > Phil. > -- OpenTrainTimes Ltd. registered in?England and Wales, company no.? 09504022. Registered office: Suite 1-3, Hop Exchange, 24 Southwark Street, London SE1 1TY From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 22 08:05:50 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:05:50 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22/09/2021 13:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help! > > I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- > a cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. > My goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the > compiler a bit. > > Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how > to install or use it. One of the other replies supplies a "how to install from scratch in SIMH" link, so that would be a good starting point. Might be faster to install on a speedy machine though (I've never tried on any Pi but I doubt that any of them will match a Ryzen ...) > Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make > it possible to send files to it from my Linux box? > The easiest way to transfer that I can think of would be to set up TCP/IP on OpenVMS and then just FTP (or NFS if you you set that up). There is (or at least, was) a version of SAMBA for OpenVMS, so that's another way if you like Windows. > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. SIMH works really well. Well enough that if you give OpenVMS (VAX) a sufficiently large disk (30GB should do), it will crash when trying to mount it :-) > > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've > filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning > while I wait. > You'll be a wizard before you stop waiting. Hobbyist PAKs are no longer available. I forget whether the existing PAKs run out at the end of 2021 or 2022. VSI are not allowed to issue PAKs for VAX (I'm not sure whether they simply cannot do it or are not allowed to do it, but either way, they won't). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 09:12:17 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:12:17 -0400 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Find a working vms system and back up the drives to your externally-attached drive (s) to clone them. Migrate the cloned drives to your system. This is a simplified statement of what's really involved but if you can get to a similar system to your dec whatever you have, I'd attempt the clone process. That is if you have/want to use real vax/alpha hardware. Bill On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 9:05 AM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 22/09/2021 13:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > > Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help! > > > > I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- > > a cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. > > My goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the > > compiler a bit. > > > > Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how > > to install or use it. > > One of the other replies supplies a "how to install from scratch in > SIMH" link, so that would be a good starting point. > > Might be faster to install on a speedy machine though (I've never tried > on any Pi but I doubt that any of them will match a Ryzen ...) > > > > Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make > > it possible to send files to it from my Linux box? > > > The easiest way to transfer that I can think of would be to set up > TCP/IP on OpenVMS and then just FTP (or NFS if you you set that up). > > There is (or at least, was) a version of SAMBA for OpenVMS, so that's > another way if you like Windows. > > > > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. > > SIMH works really well. Well enough that if you give OpenVMS (VAX) a > sufficiently large disk (30GB should do), it will crash when trying to > mount it :-) > > > > > > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've > > filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning > > while I wait. > > > You'll be a wizard before you stop waiting. Hobbyist PAKs are no longer > available. I forget whether the existing PAKs run out at the end of 2021 > or 2022. > > VSI are not allowed to issue PAKs for VAX (I'm not sure whether they > simply cannot do it or are not allowed to do it, but either way, they > won't). > > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 10:50:58 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:50:58 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03d101d7afc9$a30cc790$e92656b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Philip > Pemberton via cctalk > Sent: 22 September 2021 13:22 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Setting up a VMS system > > Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help! > > I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross > compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to > get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit. > OK Well I wonder if it needs a licence. That may be an issue... > Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to > install or use it. > You will find copies of OpenVMS and the documentation on vaxhaven.com. The commands are generally similar to Unix/DoS but it has many unique quirks. It creates versions of files. So if you run the same copy command twice, you get two output files. Assuming non were there before these will have a ";1" and ";2" on the end. I seem to remember the PURGE command cleans this up. I would just google "openvms vax install simh" and see which one suits your style of working. Lots of tutorials too., > Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it > possible to send files to it from my Linux box? > Well if you are using SIMH you can probably use FTP. If the files are small enough you can also create an ISO and mount it on OPENVMS This will be mounted as a "foreign" disk as VMS CDs are written using the VMS file format. > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. > I think its the best but there are many types of VAX, https://9track.net/simh/ has many variants. > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled out > the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait. > You won't get one from HP but there are work arounds. HP has allowed us to share our files. Let me know of list if you need it. > > Cheers > Phil. Dave From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Sep 22 11:05:57 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:05:57 -0700 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2021, at 6:05 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > Might be faster to install on a speedy machine though (I've never tried on any Pi but I doubt that any of them will match a Ryzen ?) I tend to use VM?s on my VMware cluster. I?ve used an RPI 3b+, it was about 1.6 VUPS, so better than my KA630 based systems. > SIMH works really well. Well enough that if you give OpenVMS (VAX) a sufficiently large disk (30GB should do), it will crash when trying to mount it :-) Interesting, I have 3 34GB drives in my cluster, and haven?t had any issue. Zane From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:28:36 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 12:28:36 -0400 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/22/21 8:44 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 14:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk > wrote: > >> I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. > > I like VMS but I can't claim much expertise, unfortunately. > > I have sysadminned a few boxes, but never brought one up from scratch. > > However I did experimentally bootstrap an instance in SIMH on Linux > and it worked fine. I didn't license it or do much but it worked. > >> I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've >> filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning >> while I wait. > > HP no longer owns VMS, AFAIK. It is now owned by VSI, VMS Software Inc. Not true. HP still owns it. VSI is licensed to continue development, nothing more. HPE no longer cares about VMS and the Hobbyist Program has ended. VSI has a Hobbyist type program but it does not cover VAX. > > https://vmssoftware.com/ > bill From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Sep 22 11:33:21 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:33:21 -0700 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2021, at 5:21 AM, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > > Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help! > > I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit. Out of curiosity, what?s the VAX/VMS software you?re trying to run, and what version of VAX/VMS was it intended to run on? Does it have any version requirements with the OS? > Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to install or use it. > > Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it possible to send files to it from my Linux box? Are you simply looking for Web resources, or are you interested in books? The v5.x System Managers Guide and Users Guide are probably two of my favorite books, even when running 8.x, I tend to reach for the v5.x System Managers Guide first. > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. SIMH is the best option. Better emulators cost $$$?s. > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait. That?s the problem, HP already sent out the last set of Hobbyist PAK?s. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Sep 22 11:36:02 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:36:02 -0700 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <975BD9F2-CD0A-43E7-B212-9DE518CCCE2C@avanthar.com> On Sep 22, 2021, at 9:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Not true. HP still owns it. VSI is licensed to continue development, nothing more. HPE no longer cares about VMS and the Hobbyist Program > has ended. VSI has a Hobbyist type program but it does not cover VAX. > >> https://vmssoftware.com/ > > bill Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium. We?ve been told it will cover x86 at some point. I for one can?t wait for x86, as I don?t really want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer software. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 22 13:21:59 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 19:21:59 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24f328db-8f52-bfb9-f17a-a1763492f51e@ntlworld.com> On 22/09/2021 17:05, Zane Healy wrote: > > Interesting, I have 3 34GB drives in my cluster, and haven?t had any issue. I think I was running OpenVMS VAX V7.2 on SIMH. IIRC it was fixed in V7.3 (someone sent me the DECUS Hobbyist V7.3 release and that was OK). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Sep 22 13:31:47 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:31:47 -0700 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: <24f328db-8f52-bfb9-f17a-a1763492f51e@ntlworld.com> References: <24f328db-8f52-bfb9-f17a-a1763492f51e@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 22/09/2021 17:05, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> Interesting, I have 3 34GB drives in my cluster, and haven?t had any issue. > > > I think I was running OpenVMS VAX V7.2 on SIMH. IIRC it was fixed in V7.3 (someone sent me the DECUS Hobbyist V7.3 release and that was OK). That would explain it, I?m running OpenVMS/VAX v7.3 along with OpenVMS/Alpha v8.3 and v8.4 in the cluster. What really surprised me is that SIMH can serve up an ODS-5 disk on the Cluster for OpenVMS/Alpha. Zane From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 14:04:58 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:04:58 -0400 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation Message-ID: Hello, The person that refered me to my present job at a datacenter passed away this past monday. He was a hardware / software engineer for modcomp computers. He left me all of the computers and documents. there are too many books to keep, stuff concerning the modcomp computers that is not saved anywhere else that i can tell. I have picked up storage containers for all the books, and i can scan it all. after that, its all probally going in the recycle bin, as i dont know where or how i would keep such a large pile of paper manuals on hand. what is the prefered format to upload things to bitsavers in? is pdf acceptable? How can i create a pdf that is not too big on file size? Can the text be recognized and be made searchable within the scanned pdf? any input would be appreciated, Thanks. --Devin D. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 14:14:02 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:14:02 -0400 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Where are you located? We have a small amount of Modcomp docs here and could take on a box more of the most useful paper docs for posterity-sake, to round out what's already here. Thanks Bill Degnan kennettclassic.com Kennett Square, PA On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:05 PM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello, > > The person that refered me to my present job at a datacenter passed away > this past monday. He was a hardware / software engineer for modcomp > computers. He left me all of the computers and documents. there are too > many books to keep, stuff concerning the modcomp computers that is not > saved anywhere else that i can tell. > > I have picked up storage containers for all the books, and i can scan it > all. after that, its all probally going in the recycle bin, as i dont know > where or how i would keep such a large pile of paper manuals on hand. > > what is the prefered format to upload things to bitsavers in? is pdf > acceptable? > > How can i create a pdf that is not too big on file size? Can the text be > recognized and be made searchable within the scanned pdf? > > any input would be appreciated, Thanks. > > --Devin D. > From cube1 at charter.net Wed Sep 22 14:19:22 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:19:22 -0500 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> > On Sep 22, 2021, at 14:05, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hello, > > The person that refered me to my present job at a datacenter passed away > this past monday. He was a hardware / software engineer for modcomp > computers. He left me all of the computers and documents. there are too > many books to keep, stuff concerning the modcomp computers that is not > saved anywhere else that i can tell. > > I have picked up storage containers for all the books, and i can scan it > all. after that, its all probally going in the recycle bin, as i dont know > where or how i would keep such a large pile of paper manuals on hand. > > what is the prefered format to upload things to bitsavers in? is pdf > acceptable? If you go to bitsavers.org there is a short contributor?s guide. For B/W, CCITT Group 4 tiffs at 400dpi is what I do, but then I also generate a PDF from them for my own use, and put both on my Google drive and notify Al Kossow of an available contribution. > How can i create a pdf that is not too big on file size? Can the text be > recognized and be made searchable within the scanned pdf? Bitsavers will post process and create a searchable PDF > > any input would be appreciated, Thanks. > > --Devin D. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 22 14:30:00 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 12:30:00 -0700 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210922123000.5286733e@asrock> AFAIK, I have an entire library of MODCOMP documentation - consisting of over one thousand manuals as PDF's. I will check with the person who had the original manuals scanned and check to see if it is O.K. to zip them up and give them to AL to post on bitsavers. (I expect them to say "O.K."). Cheers, Lyle -- On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:14:02 -0400 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Where are you located? We have a small amount of Modcomp docs here and > could take on a box more of the most useful paper docs for posterity-sake, > to round out what's already here. > Thanks > Bill Degnan > kennettclassic.com > Kennett Square, PA > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:05 PM devin davison via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > The person that refered me to my present job at a datacenter passed away > > this past monday. He was a hardware / software engineer for modcomp > > computers. He left me all of the computers and documents. there are too > > many books to keep, stuff concerning the modcomp computers that is not > > saved anywhere else that i can tell. > > > > I have picked up storage containers for all the books, and i can scan it > > all. after that, its all probally going in the recycle bin, as i dont know > > where or how i would keep such a large pile of paper manuals on hand. > > > > what is the prefered format to upload things to bitsavers in? is pdf > > acceptable? > > > > How can i create a pdf that is not too big on file size? Can the text be > > recognized and be made searchable within the scanned pdf? > > > > any input would be appreciated, Thanks. > > > > --Devin D. > > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 14:57:16 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:57:16 -0400 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: <20210922123000.5286733e@asrock> References: <20210922123000.5286733e@asrock> Message-ID: Thank you all for the information. I would like to preserve the information and get the books to good homes if possible. I will get a listing of what is here. If the others that have modcomp books and docs can list what they have scanned and availible, that can save on a duplication of effort scanning something that is already online. I am Located in melbourne FL. thanks, Devin D. On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 3:30 PM Lyle Bickley wrote: > AFAIK, I have an entire library of MODCOMP documentation - consisting of > over > one thousand manuals as PDF's. I will check with the person who had the > original manuals scanned and check to see if it is O.K. to zip them up and > give > them to AL to post on bitsavers. (I expect them to say "O.K."). > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:14:02 -0400 > Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > Where are you located? We have a small amount of Modcomp docs here and > > could take on a box more of the most useful paper docs for > posterity-sake, > > to round out what's already here. > > Thanks > > Bill Degnan > > kennettclassic.com > > Kennett Square, PA > > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:05 PM devin davison via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > The person that refered me to my present job at a datacenter passed > away > > > this past monday. He was a hardware / software engineer for modcomp > > > computers. He left me all of the computers and documents. there are too > > > many books to keep, stuff concerning the modcomp computers that is not > > > saved anywhere else that i can tell. > > > > > > I have picked up storage containers for all the books, and i can scan > it > > > all. after that, its all probally going in the recycle bin, as i dont > know > > > where or how i would keep such a large pile of paper manuals on hand. > > > > > > what is the prefered format to upload things to bitsavers in? is pdf > > > acceptable? > > > > > > How can i create a pdf that is not too big on file size? Can the text > be > > > recognized and be made searchable within the scanned pdf? > > > > > > any input would be appreciated, Thanks. > > > > > > --Devin D. > > > > > > > -- > 73 NM6Y > Bickley Consulting West > https://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 22 15:51:15 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:51:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Jay Jaeger wrote: > B/W, CCITT Group 4 tiffs at 400dpi is what I do, but then I also 600 DPI should be the absolute mininum today. There is absolutely no reason to go below that for B/W. > and notify Al Kossow of an available contribution. Hasn't worked for me in the past ... > Bitsavers will post process and create a searchable PDF Since when? Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 22 15:52:59 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:52:59 -0700 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> Message-ID: <2afe10bd-9835-2611-f4aa-ee17f16fde1d@bitsavers.org> On 9/22/21 1:51 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Hasn't worked for me in the past ... guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 22 15:54:35 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:54:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ddf8287-f517-a369-8837-9bc7ae59cb67@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, devin davison wrote: > I'm working to get my pdp 11/34 and 11/45 running. I was curious what > versions of unix or bsd would work on the machines i have. I wanted to set I'm running 2.9BSD on both our 11/34 and 11/45. > If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was also > curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i could > SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use dumb > terminals. There isn't enough memory and overlay space available for Ethernet stuff in 2.9BSD. Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 22 15:55:52 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:55:52 -0700 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> Message-ID: <3eff4d7b-307a-a4fb-c3ec-ce0378f0b52b@bitsavers.org> On 9/22/21 1:51 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> Bitsavers will post process and create a searchable PDF > > Since when? I think I'll just step away from the terminal for a few hours. I've been OCRing uploads for YEARS. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 22 16:40:44 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I have picked up storage containers for all the books, and i can scan it > all. after that, its all probally going in the recycle bin, as i dont know > where or how i would keep such a large pile of paper manuals on hand. > > what is the prefered format to upload things to bitsavers in? is pdf > acceptable? > I would scan it all at 600dpi - that's what I do with everything I scan. I'd upload it to the IA as well, but that's just me. :) > How can i create a pdf that is not too big on file size? Can the text be > recognized and be made searchable within the scanned pdf? > Disk space is cheap, go for scan quality. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 22 16:51:04 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> B/W, CCITT Group 4 tiffs at 400dpi is what I do, but then I also > > 600 DPI should be the absolute mininum today. There is absolutely no reason > to go below that for B/W. > Agreed. >> Bitsavers will post process and create a searchable PDF > > Since when? > No idea, but the IA will process the upload into html, plain text, mobi, and OCRd PDF. If I'm scanning bound books, those end up as indiviual tiff images (one per page). At the end of processing those, they get stuffed into a zip file with the suffix "cbz" (Comic Book Zip) and once uploaded, the derive task at the IA handles all the OCR work as well as creating those other formats. I'm pretty sure it will do the same with uploaded PDF files. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 16:56:29 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:56:29 +0200 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 18:28, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Not true. HP still owns it. VSI is licensed to continue development, > nothing more. HPE no longer cares about VMS and the Hobbyist Program > has ended. VSI has a Hobbyist type program but it does not cover VAX. I sit corrected. The upshot is the same, though... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Sep 22 19:31:44 2021 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:31:44 -0700 Subject: Seeking DEC BC19S (VS2000 color video/keyboard/mouse) cable Message-ID: <10270EE8-D268-4D90-B96A-E365BDEA4B94@eschatologist.net> I now have a 4-plane color graphics card for my VAXstation 2000, and I'd like to actually connect it to a display. Does anyone have a DEC BC19S cable that needs a good home? For reference, this has a DA15F connector on one end that plugs into the VAXstation, which leads to a box that screws into the back or base of a display and has the RJ11 and Mini-DIN-7 jacks for keyboard and mouse, and then has three short BNC cables coming out of of it for color video. I have the parts to make a breakout box if I have to but that'd be more of a pain than giving someone money and having a thing arrive in the mail. :) -- Chris From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 21:29:55 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:29:55 -0300 Subject: HP-UX on HP 9000/217 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71dc9ba6-1bc1-e437-65bd-e6361dedbc32@gmail.com> On 2021-09-13 9:21 p.m., Larkin Nickle via cctalk wrote: > Hey all, > > ????According to > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/9000_200/9000-200_periphSupp_Dec89.pdf > (see PDF page 2), it seems as if HP-UX 5.1 should work on the > 9000/217. http://hparchive.com/Catalogs/HP-Catalog-1986.pdf also seems > to confirm this (PDF page 71 under Series 200 Bundled Systems, it's > mentioned that the Model 217 can run single-user HP-UX). However, > there seems to be conflicted information based on people that I've > talked to and the hpmuseum page with a copy of HP-UX 5.1 whether it > should work at all, whether 5.1 is a unified release where the boot > floppy should work on both series 200 and 300, or whether there's > another boot floppy for series 200 which apparently has not been > archived. > > ????I recently obtained a Model 217 and would like to know if anyone > has more info on this, the two people that I know of that have tried > it get a hang on boot. > > Thanks, > Larkin It would seem likely that there is a separate boot diskette for 200 series machines that so far no one has found a copy of.? The only thing I succeeded in booting the 5.1 that is available on hpmuseum.net is a 310.? I tried booting it on a 9920 with a 68010 processor card and got the same result it posts the starting message and then hangs. Paul. From compoobah at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 08:12:06 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:12:06 -0700 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23f5e982f5f59ee0c5fe0c37dac7449aa42e6012.camel@gmail.com> On Wed, 2021-09-22 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium.? We?ve been > told it will cover x86 at some point.? I for one can?t wait for x86, > as I don?t really want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer > software. > > Zane Not even that... looked at the VSI stuff and it is only the newest Alphas that are supported. 21064/21164 and, I believe, 21264 are not supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the PRODUCER key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS. HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put in for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so disinterested in the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it isn't surprising that the page is still up. Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I was always told. Anyway, good system, pretty solid, expect to do a LOT of typing for commands if you're used to UNIX, and don't put any VAX with a public DCL account on the Internet because there is a huge security hole in DCL that was never fixed for VAX. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 08:23:56 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:23:56 -0400 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: <23f5e982f5f59ee0c5fe0c37dac7449aa42e6012.camel@gmail.com> References: <23f5e982f5f59ee0c5fe0c37dac7449aa42e6012.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5138A8CC-6E16-4A5E-93C6-DDA8D9FD402D@comcast.net> > On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote: > ... > Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I > was always told. I don't know how close it is to RSX, but I do know that RSTS (V9 and later) DCL was explicitly modeled on VMS DCL, including the DCL functions for use in command files. They aren't identical for various reasons, but close, and similar in capability. Another VMS-inspired RSTS item (also in V9) is BACKUP, which produces backup sets that VMS can read, and with limitations due to the file system differences can read at least some VMS backup sets. paul From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 19:15:51 2021 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:15:51 -0400 Subject: DEC KL11 Message-ID: A few details for the curious: It's housed in a BA-11 box with 3 controller cards. The Massbus paddles fit into that box and terminate in flat ribbon cable, not the massive cables. The DRAM chips are 4116s. manx tells me that these documents were known to exist: PartTitleStatus EK-0ML11-TD *ML11 Technical Description * EK-0ML11-TM *ML11 Technical Manual * EK-0ML11-UG *ML11 User's Guide * But they are not online. So I can't say whether they are 18 bit compatible. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 23 10:00:45 2021 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:00:45 +0100 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: <5138A8CC-6E16-4A5E-93C6-DDA8D9FD402D@comcast.net> References: <23f5e982f5f59ee0c5fe0c37dac7449aa42e6012.camel@gmail.com> <5138A8CC-6E16-4A5E-93C6-DDA8D9FD402D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <06065397-9972-f1d0-d88e-acd64f1e07ac@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/09/2021 14:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I >> was always told. > > I don't know how close it is to RSX, but I do know that RSTS (V9 and later) DCL was explicitly modeled on VMS DCL RSX originally used MCR, but later (from about 3.2 IIRC) had DCL as an option, and that's where VMS DCL came from. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Sep 23 12:38:22 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) Message-ID: <20210923173822.14F6718C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Kahrs There's a typo in your original Subject: line: the KL11 is a very early UNIBUS (probably the very first UNIBUS device ever, looking at the board's Mxxx number) asyn serial line interface: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KL11_asynchronous_serial_line_interface > manx tells me that these documents were known to exist: > .. > But they are not online. I couldn't find out anything about the KM11 with a Web search, but I did see that it's in the DEC PDP-11 fiche set. My set does have the KM11 Tech Manual. I've never heard of the KM11, and as I said, there's nothing about it online. Is it worth doing a CHWiki page for it? (With the fiche, it would be pretty easy to whip up one covering the basics: functionality, component boards, etc. > So I can't say whether they are 18 bit compatible. Huh? The KM11 doesn't plug into the UNIBUS (or QBUS); it's a MASSBUS device (a solid-state storage device, actually), so it plugs into an RH11 or RH70 or something like that. (I should work with the VAX MASSBUS controller, too.) So the question 'is it 18 bit compatible' makes no sense. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 12:45:56 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:45:56 -0400 Subject: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) In-Reply-To: <20210923173822.14F6718C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210923173822.14F6718C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Sep 23, 2021, at 1:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> So I can't say whether they are 18 bit compatible. > > Huh? The KM11 doesn't plug into the UNIBUS (or QBUS); it's a MASSBUS device (a > solid-state storage device, actually), so it plugs into an RH11 or RH70 or > something like that. (I should work with the VAX MASSBUS controller, too.) > So the question 'is it 18 bit compatible' makes no sense. The addressing wouldn't be a question because the Massbus controller handles that. But the sector format is a different matter. If it's designed for PDP-11 and friends, presumably it has a 512 byte sector size. For PDP-10 or -20 use you'd presumably want a sector size consisting of some round number of 36 bit words. paul From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Sep 23 15:21:31 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:21:31 -0500 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18c485a6-9572-4266-580d-d535024c4e26@thereinhardts.org> On 9/22/2021 7:21 AM, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help! > > I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit. > > Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to install or use it. > > Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it possible to send files to it from my Linux box? > > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available. That is pretty much it for VAX emulation.? Going with the V4 release stream gives you a number of options, but they are all basically the same. > > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait. > That will be a long wait.? HPE stopped responding to OpenVMS Hobbyist requests around May 2020.? If you email me I can send you a copy of the last set of VAX OpenVMS PAKs that were sent out.? They are generic, as opposed to what they used to send out which had authorization # tailored to each requestor.? These are good only for a few more months s they expire on 1-Jan-2022.? As they were generic and the last Hobbyist PAKS that HPE was going to send out we got unofficial (from Hari, the HPE employee in India that ran the Hobbyist program) permission to give them to anyone that asked. You don't say how old the software is that you want to run.? If it's VAX/VMS V4 vintage then you gan get away without the PAKS as that is pre-LMF and PAK usage. But then again, V4.7 era is somewhat harder to install and set up than a V7.3 (the last VAX version) > > Cheers > Phil. -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Sep 23 16:18:55 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:18:55 -0500 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: <23f5e982f5f59ee0c5fe0c37dac7449aa42e6012.camel@gmail.com> References: <23f5e982f5f59ee0c5fe0c37dac7449aa42e6012.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/23/2021 8:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2021-09-22 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium.? We?ve been >> told it will cover x86 at some point.? I for one can?t wait for x86, >> as I don?t really want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer >> software. >> >> Zane > Not even that... looked at the VSI stuff and it is only the newest > Alphas that are supported. 21064/21164 and, I believe, 21264 are not The VSI SPD for OpenVMS V8.4-2L1 (the version given with the VSI Commumity License program) indicated DS10 and newer.? However, as often mentioned, there is a difference between "supported" and "works".? People in comp.os.vms have installed the VSI releases on Alphastation 255's Alphaserver 800/1200 and other EV4 and EV5 Alphas.? VSI won't mark them as supported probably because they don't have any such systems to test on or just don't want to bother testing on such systems. If you have somehow gotten a copy of VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L2 then it was specifically built to support EV6 and newer Alphas.? It will NOT work on older systems such as the AlphaServer 800/1200/4100 and AlphaStation 255 series. > supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the PRODUCER > key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS. Part of their licensing agreement with HPE which prohibits them from selling/licensing any previous version of OpenVMS that they haven't worked on. > HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put in > for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so disinterested in > the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it isn't > surprising that the page is still up. If it's a VAX PAK you need, contact me and I can send you a copy of the last VAX OpenVMS Hobbyist PAK sent out.? Note that it expires on 1-JAN-2022 so it's good only for a few more months. > > Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I > was always told. Anyway, good system, pretty solid, expect to do a LOT > of typing for commands if you're used to UNIX, and don't put any VAX > with a public DCL account on the Internet because there is a huge > security hole in DCL that was never fixed for VAX. > -- John H. Reinhardt From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Thu Sep 23 17:03:55 2021 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:03:55 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <87wnn7lzjo.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 boot issues References: <87ilytoikj.fsf at carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <87fstxohuj.fsf at carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <21789e85-2aa4-3b61-db31-b21fd8c08a03 at dunnington.plus.com> <87czp1obv4.fsf at carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> User-agent: mu4e 0.9.18; emacs 27.2 In-reply-to: <87czp1obv4.fsf at carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes: > Pete Turnbull via cctalk writes: > >> On 21/09/2021 20:34, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Can an MXV11 be used in a 22 bit system? I thought it was an 18 bit >>> device? >> >> MXV11-B is 22-bit. MXV11-A is 18-bit but supposedly can be used in a >> 22-bit system if the RAM is disabled. > > Yeah this is a 22 bit card. Josh sent me an xxdp image which I could > easily boot from my scsi2sd (thanks!). Seems to be reporting an error > with the CPU unfortunately: > > ]] .R ZKDJ?? > ]] ZKDJB2.BIC > ]] > ]] ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS > ]] ERROR # =001166 > ]] ERROR PC =040662 > ]] 043632 > > This happens regardless of whether W9 is installed or not (supposedly > disables the LTC register on the CPU?) > > I'll see if I can borrow another CPU card form a friend this > weekend. Unless anyone else has any ideas? Another suggestion on IRC > was to disable the PSU LTC and enable the LTC on MXV11 but will need to > look up some details on how to do this. Had a nice cycling trip this evening to pick up a spare 11/73 card. Unfortunately it did not fix my issues so I'll have to do some more digging. Has anyone disconnected the BEVENT line and used a signal generator to provide the LTC? Curious to try this to figure out if mine is just being noisy or something. Thanks, Aaron From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Sep 23 17:06:04 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) Message-ID: <20210923220604.6A5CD18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > But the sector format is a different matter. If it's designed for > PDP-11 and friends, presumably it has a 512 byte sector size. For > PDP-10 or -20 use you'd presumably want a sector size consisting of > some round number of 36 bit words. Actually, the -10/-20 MASSBUS situation is even more complicated than that. The MASSBUS can operate in 16 or 18 bit data width (for everyone else; this is totally different from the Q16/Q18/Q22 of the QBUS, which is _address_ width), so it can support 36-bit words directly, using two extra data lines. So for the RP04 and other disks, and their 'controllers' (at least, the part that's in the device), they have to be able to turn the bit-stream from the mass storage device into 18-bit wide words. (And they actually have different sector formats depending on whether they are in 16- or 18-bit mode.) What the KM11 does, I don't know (I'm too lazy to go look at the TM); I would not at all be suprised to find that it can _only_ operate in 16-bit mode (i.e. the array of memory chips is 16 bits wide, and it just ships a line at a time from that out in parallel, so there's no way to even produce 18-bit wide words). The name of the device (KM11) adds weight to that supposition. Noel From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 17:40:44 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:40:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ? References: <804094382.1265231.1632436844916.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <804094382.1265231.1632436844916@mail.yahoo.com> I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has circuitry . Does anyone know what the circuitry does? Is it required for SCSI operation? (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make use of pk2k SCSI boot-roms!) From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Sep 23 17:52:16 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 23:52:16 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ? In-Reply-To: <804094382.1265231.1632436844916@mail.yahoo.com> References: <804094382.1265231.1632436844916.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01S45ZQ5FX4M8WW9T4@beyondthepale.ie> > > I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has > circuitry . Does anyone know what the circuitry does? Is it required > for SCSI operation? (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make > use of pk2k SCSI boot-roms!) > I don't know what circuitry there is or is not in the expansion base. Whatever the case, it is not required for SCSI operation. I have had no problems plugging one end of a 50 way ribbon cable into the 50 pin IDC socket on the motherboard and the other end into a SCSI disk. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 18:05:48 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:05:48 -0400 Subject: microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ? In-Reply-To: <804094382.1265231.1632436844916@mail.yahoo.com> References: <804094382.1265231.1632436844916.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <804094382.1265231.1632436844916@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:41 PM Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has circuitry . Does anyone know what the circuitry does? Is it required for SCSI operation? (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make use of pk2k SCSI boot-roms!) IIRC the DHT32 has a small board in the skirt and the external RD interface may have a board as well. SCSI (for a TK50Z-FA, originally) is just a cable. The 50-pin connector on the mainboard is correctly wired for SCSI. It may well have TERMPWR active and not current-limited though, if it matters to your target. -ethan From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 18:26:15 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:26:15 -0500 Subject: microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ? In-Reply-To: References: <804094382.1265231.1632436844916.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <804094382.1265231.1632436844916@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:41 PM Jonathan Stone via cctalk > wrote: >> I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has circuitry . Does anyone know what the circuitry does? Is it required for SCSI operation? (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make use of pk2k SCSI boot-roms!) > IIRC the DHT32 has a small board in the skirt and the external RD > interface may have a board as well. SCSI (for a TK50Z-FA, originally) > is just a cable. The 50-pin connector on the mainboard is correctly > wired for SCSI. It may well have TERMPWR active and not > current-limited though, if it matters to your target. > > -ethan > Indeed, Ethan.? TERMPWR is active.? I actually have two 1GB disks inside mine (I do not have an expansion box), and I kludged? a centronix? SCSI connector in the back to connect external stuff. By the way, if anybody needs the four patched rom images, I can share them off-list. carlos. From phil at ultimate.com Thu Sep 23 21:22:48 2021 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202109240222.18O2MmVR000527@ultimate.com> > But the sector format is a different matter. If it's designed for > PDP-11 and friends, presumably it has a 512 byte sector size. > For PDP-10 or -20 use you'd presumably want a sector size consisting > of some round number of 36 bit words. 576 byte sectors (128 words), IIRC. The unit of allocation on TOPS-20 was a page (512 words). I forget what it was on TOPS-10: 256 word blocks? My notes (from sources unknown) say (of the ML11A): solid-state (ram) disk; 2MB/s xfer 1-31 arrays of 512 or 2048 blocks ea using 11/70 MK11 (MOS) memory looked like RS03/RS04 to s/w http://gunkies.org/wiki/RS03/04_disk_drive says about *REAL* RS03/04 drives: "basic format was 18-bit words (for use in PDP-10 and PDP-15 machines)" But I doubt that anyone would care to replicate THAT feature (throwing away two bits of each word) on a PDP-11 option! From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Sep 23 21:50:13 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:50:13 -0400 Subject: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) In-Reply-To: <202109240222.18O2MmVR000527@ultimate.com> References: <202109240222.18O2MmVR000527@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <0857a090-3ca2-00d8-6f1d-d9c6783d8cd0@alembic.crystel.com> > My notes (from sources unknown) say (of the ML11A): > > solid-state (ram) disk; 2MB/s xfer > 1-31 arrays of 512 or 2048 blocks ea > using 11/70 MK11 (MOS) memory > looked like RS03/RS04 to s/w Ok, that makes sense. > http://gunkies.org/wiki/RS03/04_disk_drive > says about *REAL* RS03/04 drives: > "basic format was 18-bit words > (for use in PDP-10 and PDP-15 machines)" > > But I doubt that anyone would care to replicate THAT feature > (throwing away two bits of each word) on a PDP-11 option! Well, that would otherwise have been used for Massbus parity. The number of bits on the drive stayed the same, it's just that the formatter would either format the disk for 512 or 576, then use the top two bits either for parity or the last 2 data bits. The other fun question that I have to figure out is can an RM80 be run in 18 bit mode. I'm guessing it can as it uses the same Massbus formatter as the RM02/03/05. Need to roll that thing out of my son's closet when he moves out and see what happens... C From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 03:12:18 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:12:18 +0100 Subject: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) In-Reply-To: <20210923173822.14F6718C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210923173822.14F6718C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:38 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Huh? The KM11 doesn't plug into the UNIBUS (or QBUS); it's a MASSBUS device (a > solid-state storage device, actually), so it plugs into an RH11 or RH70 or > something like that. (I should work with the VAX MASSBUS controller, too.) > So the question 'is it 18 bit compatible' makes no sense. Were there 2 things called the KM11? The KM11 that I know is the maintenance unit, composed of a W130 and W131 plugged together. It goes into a specially-wired connector on some older PDP11s (e.g. the 11/45), controllers (e.g. RK11C) and periperals (e.g. RX01). I have a pair of real DEC ones, and a clone I built to do tests on my PDP11/45 before I got the DEC ones. -tony From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 04:11:07 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 05:11:07 -0400 Subject: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) In-Reply-To: References: <20210923173822.14F6718C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <047801d7b124$1c54fdb0$54fef910$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell via cctalk > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2021 4:12 AM > To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11) > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:38 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > > > Huh? The KM11 doesn't plug into the UNIBUS (or QBUS); it's a MASSBUS device (a > > solid-state storage device, actually), so it plugs into an RH11 or RH70 or > > something like that. (I should work with the VAX MASSBUS controller, too.) > > So the question 'is it 18 bit compatible' makes no sense. > > Were there 2 things called the KM11? > > The KM11 that I know is the maintenance unit, composed of a W130 and > W131 plugged together. It goes into a specially-wired connector on > some older PDP11s (e.g. the 11/45), controllers (e.g. RK11C) and > periperals (e.g. RX01). > > I have a pair of real DEC ones, and a clone I built to do tests on my > PDP11/45 before I got the DEC ones. > > -tony I think that we're all talking about the ML11-A, or at least are intending to ... although the Subject line has been erroneous from the get-go ... As Mark said: PartTitleStatus EK-0ML11-TD *ML11 Technical Description EK-0ML11-TM *ML11 Technical Manual EK-0ML11-UG *ML11 User's Guide ----- paul From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Sep 24 04:30:55 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:30:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: <3eff4d7b-307a-a4fb-c3ec-ce0378f0b52b@bitsavers.org> References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> <3eff4d7b-307a-a4fb-c3ec-ce0378f0b52b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Bitsavers will post process and create a searchable PDF >> >> Since when? > > I think I'll just step away from the terminal for a few hours. > I've been OCRing uploads for YEARS. Ok, I didn't know that you do that for foreign scans, I thought you only OCR your own scans. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Sep 24 04:32:58 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:32:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: <2afe10bd-9835-2611-f4aa-ee17f16fde1d@bitsavers.org> References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> <2afe10bd-9835-2611-f4aa-ee17f16fde1d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/22/21 1:51 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> Hasn't worked for me in the past ... > guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue Don't get me wrong, but I had written some emails in the last years offering stuff for bitsavers (downloadable from our FTP site). They never made it into the archives. Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 24 04:59:42 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 02:59:42 -0700 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> <2afe10bd-9835-2611-f4aa-ee17f16fde1d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/24/21 2:32 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Don't get me wrong, but I had written some emails in the last years offering stuff for bitsavers (downloadable from our FTP site). They > never made it into the archives. > > Christian I know I've put some things up. Sometimes offers get lost in my email stream. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 24 08:54:59 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC ML11 (Was: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11)) Message-ID: <20210924135459.C82B118C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > Were there 2 things called the KM11? > The KM11 that I know is the maintenance unit > From: Paul Birkel > I think that we're all talking about the ML11-A, or at least are > intending to ... although the Subject line has been erroneous from the > get-go ... Well, at least your brains are working, unlike mine! (Age starting to catch up with me?) Yes, the ML11; I tried to correct the erroneous 'KL11' and changed the wrong letter! Noel From doc at vaxen.net Thu Sep 23 09:40:09 2021 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:40:09 -0500 Subject: BC19S Message-ID: Hi, Chris, Where are you, and how long is that cable? I believe that I have a spare that's around 18". As luck would have it, I'm moving, and today I'm sorting and culling the graphics cable tub anyway. If I have a spare I'll save it out. Doc From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Fri Sep 24 04:34:45 2021 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:34:45 +1000 Subject: scanning a ton of documentation In-Reply-To: References: <33B9A952-8A1A-409A-930C-9D8AF1CAF7CB@charter.net> <2afe10bd-9835-2611-f4aa-ee17f16fde1d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Confirming IA will derive off PDF as well as CBZ to generate OCRed PDFs. //m On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 at 7:33 pm, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 9/22/21 1:51 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > >> Hasn't worked for me in the past ... > > guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue > > Don't get me wrong, but I had written some emails in the last years > offering stuff for bitsavers (downloadable from our FTP site). They never > made it into the archives. > > Christian > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Sep 24 17:01:36 2021 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 23:01:36 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/73 boot issues In-Reply-To: <87czp1obv4.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87ilytoikj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <87fstxohuj.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> <21789e85-2aa4-3b61-db31-b21fd8c08a03@dunnington.plus.com> <87czp1obv4.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87r1ddmy4f.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> > Pete Turnbull via cctalk writes: > >> On 21/09/2021 20:34, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Can an MXV11 be used in a 22 bit system? I thought it was an 18 bit >>> device? >> >> MXV11-B is 22-bit. MXV11-A is 18-bit but supposedly can be used in a >> 22-bit system if the RAM is disabled. > > Yeah this is a 22 bit card. Josh sent me an xxdp image which I could > easily boot from my scsi2sd (thanks!). Seems to be reporting an error > with the CPU unfortunately: > > ]] .R ZKDJ?? > ]] ZKDJB2.BIC > ]] > ]] ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS > ]] ERROR # =001166 > ]] ERROR PC =040662 > ]] 043632 > > This happens regardless of whether W9 is installed or not (supposedly > disables the LTC register on the CPU?) > > I'll see if I can borrow another CPU card form a friend this > weekend. Unless anyone else has any ideas? Another suggestion on IRC > was to disable the PSU LTC and enable the LTC on MXV11 but will need to > look up some details on how to do this. > > Thanks, > Aaron Probing the BEVENT line and it was 50hz etc, but then I realised it wasn't actually the right voltage. Replaced a transistor and now it boots! Cheers, Aaron From compoobah at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 07:32:34 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 05:32:34 -0700 Subject: Setting up a VMS system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33ba736cc521c5bbf06ae96a3886ddbf3bd4decd.camel@gmail.com> On Fri, 2021-09-24 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the > > PRODUCER > > key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS. > > Part of their licensing agreement with HPE which prohibits them from > selling/licensing any previous version of OpenVMS that they haven't > worked on. > > > HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put > > in > > for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so > > disinterested in > > the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it > > isn't > > surprising that the page is still up. > > If it's a VAX PAK you need, contact me and I can send you a copy of > the last VAX OpenVMS Hobbyist PAK sent out.? Note that it expires on > 1-JAN-2022 so it's good only for a few more months. Yeah, would have been nice if they would have handed it off to Montegar again for VAX/early Alpha with the understanding that (a) it would be the same restrictions that DEC/CPQ/HP had and (b) they weren't bugged about it ever again. Sigh. Fits into the HP model of "buy and bury" I guess. At least VAX has other options. Anyone succeeded in patching the DCL security hole for VAX? I know it wasn't officially fixed. From athornton at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 00:14:13 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 22:14:13 -0700 Subject: OpenVMS/VAX license expiration Message-ID: You might want to search the Github repositories of a certain "athornton" looking for something called "yarr". Obviously it would be wrong to use it. So don't. Adam From jjacocks at mac.com Sun Sep 26 02:22:47 2021 From: jjacocks at mac.com (Alexander Jacocks) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 03:22:47 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000/300 - T-ERR-SCSI A Message-ID: I?ve got a DEC 3000/300 system that has some SCSI drives with aging bearings installed. I?d like to be able to start to migrate some of my systems, like this, to flash media, of some kind, as even my large repository of SCSI disks is starting to dry up. Here is my SRM level info: DEC 3000 - M300 Digital Equipment Corporation VPP PAL V5.56-80800101/OSF PAL V1.45-80800201 - Built on 30-SEP-1996 09:18:31.84 As far as I have read, the SCSI2SD v6 2020 should be compatible with several varieties of DEC hardware, from the VAXen to the Alphas. However, I can?t seem to get anywhere useful with mine. I have the virtual disks configured as follows: >>> sh dev BOOTDEV ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM REV ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ --- ESA0 08-00-2B-3F-4C-9A , TENBT DKA100 A/1/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 6.0 DKA300 A/3/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 6.0 DKA400 A/4/0 RODISK 305.01MB RM WP RRD45 6.0 All three disks are from the SCSI2SD. I have attempted to make the inquiry strings match the originals, as closely as possible. In the SCSI2SD utility, I have the following config: General page: all defaults, termination off (I have tried parity, scsi2 mode, and setting SCSI speed to sync, with no improvement) Device 1: enabled, ID 1, device Hard Drive, start sector 0, sector size 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number Device 2: enabled, ID 3, device Hard Drive, start sector 18636800, sector size 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number Device 3: enabled, ID 4, device CDROM, start sector 37273600, sector size 2048, sector count 148933, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RRD45 ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number I?ve also tried booting from a virtual CDROM, only, with no luck there, either. In all cases, I get the following from SRM: >>> test scsi T-STS-SCSI A - Data Trans test ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 1 lun = 0 ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 3 lun = 0 ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 4 lun = 0 ?? 002 SCSI 0x0008 84 FAIL Does anyone have an idea what might be causing this? Has anyone tried a v6 SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000? Thanks! - Alex From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Sep 26 08:46:38 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 06:46:38 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000/300 - T-ERR-SCSI A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <254C5687-B010-4656-891C-01A154F68468@avanthar.com> On Sep 26, 2021, at 12:22 AM, Alexander Jacocks via cctalk wrote: > > I?ve got a DEC 3000/300 system that has some SCSI drives with aging bearings installed. I?d like to be able to start to migrate some of my systems, like this, to flash media, of some kind, as even my large repository of SCSI disks is starting to dry up. > > Here is my SRM level info: > DEC 3000 - M300 > Digital Equipment Corporation > VPP PAL V5.56-80800101/OSF PAL V1.45-80800201 - Built on 30-SEP-1996 09:18:31.84 > > As far as I have read, the SCSI2SD v6 2020 should be compatible with several varieties of DEC hardware, from the VAXen to the Alphas. However, I can?t seem to get anywhere useful with mine. I have the virtual disks configured as follows: > >>>> sh dev > > BOOTDEV ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM REV > ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ --- > ESA0 08-00-2B-3F-4C-9A , TENBT > DKA100 A/1/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 6.0 > DKA300 A/3/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 6.0 > DKA400 A/4/0 RODISK 305.01MB RM WP RRD45 6.0 > > All three disks are from the SCSI2SD. I have attempted to make the inquiry strings match the originals, as closely as possible. In the SCSI2SD utility, I have the following config: > > General page: all defaults, termination off (I have tried parity, scsi2 mode, and setting SCSI speed to sync, with no improvement) > Device 1: enabled, ID 1, device Hard Drive, start sector 0, sector size 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number > Device 2: enabled, ID 3, device Hard Drive, start sector 18636800, sector size 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number > Device 3: enabled, ID 4, device CDROM, start sector 37273600, sector size 2048, sector count 148933, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RRD45 ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number > > I?ve also tried booting from a virtual CDROM, only, with no luck there, either. In all cases, I get the following from SRM: > >>>> test scsi > T-STS-SCSI A - Data Trans test > ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare > T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 1 lun = 0 > > ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare > T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 3 lun = 0 > > ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare > T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 4 lun = 0 > ?? 002 SCSI 0x0008 > > > 84 FAIL > > Does anyone have an idea what might be causing this? Has anyone tried a v6 SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000? > > Thanks! > - Alex I picked up a couple v6 boards for my AlphaStation 200 4/233, but haven?t tried to use them yet. Are you using the onboard SCSI, or a SCSI board? I?m ?going to assume you?ve tried a different cable, and to get it working from actual physical drives? Have you tried turning the termination on, on the board? Is your SCSI Bus Terminated? You actually have RZ40?s in the system? I?m asking as I?m not actually familiar with that drive type, at least it?s not one I remember off the top fo my head. I usually use RZ29?s. On my v5.2 board on my VAXstation 4000/90 I think I went with basic 8GB drives, without a vendor string or product string. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 09:03:05 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:03:05 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000/300 - T-ERR-SCSI A In-Reply-To: <254C5687-B010-4656-891C-01A154F68468@avanthar.com> References: <254C5687-B010-4656-891C-01A154F68468@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I was either sacrifice a data drive to make it a backup of the primary or find a like drive first, get the system stable and then upgrade. I have a 3000 too here if you want to work together to troubleshoot yours Bill On Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 9:46 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Sep 26, 2021, at 12:22 AM, Alexander Jacocks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I?ve got a DEC 3000/300 system that has some SCSI drives with aging > bearings installed. I?d like to be able to start to migrate some of my > systems, like this, to flash media, of some kind, as even my large > repository of SCSI disks is starting to dry up. > > > > Here is my SRM level info: > > DEC 3000 - M300 > > Digital Equipment Corporation > > VPP PAL V5.56-80800101/OSF PAL V1.45-80800201 - Built on 30-SEP-1996 > 09:18:31.84 > > > > As far as I have read, the SCSI2SD v6 2020 should be compatible with > several varieties of DEC hardware, from the VAXen to the Alphas. However, I > can?t seem to get anywhere useful with mine. I have the virtual disks > configured as follows: > > > >>>> sh dev > > > > BOOTDEV ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM > REV > > ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ > --- > > ESA0 08-00-2B-3F-4C-9A , TENBT > > DKA100 A/1/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 > 6.0 > > DKA300 A/3/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 > 6.0 > > DKA400 A/4/0 RODISK 305.01MB RM WP RRD45 > 6.0 > > > > All three disks are from the SCSI2SD. I have attempted to make the > inquiry strings match the originals, as closely as possible. In the SCSI2SD > utility, I have the following config: > > > > General page: all defaults, termination off (I have tried parity, scsi2 > mode, and setting SCSI speed to sync, with no improvement) > > Device 1: enabled, ID 1, device Hard Drive, start sector 0, sector size > 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 ?, > revision ? 6.0?, serial number > > Device 2: enabled, ID 3, device Hard Drive, start sector 18636800, > sector size 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 > ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number > > Device 3: enabled, ID 4, device CDROM, start sector 37273600, sector > size 2048, sector count 148933, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RRD45 ?, > revision ? 6.0?, serial number > > > > I?ve also tried booting from a virtual CDROM, only, with no luck there, > either. In all cases, I get the following from SRM: > > > >>>> test scsi > > T-STS-SCSI A - Data Trans test > > ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare > > T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 1 lun = 0 > > > > ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare > > T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 3 lun = 0 > > > > ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare > > T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 4 lun = 0 > > ?? 002 SCSI 0x0008 > > > > > > 84 FAIL > > > > Does anyone have an idea what might be causing this? Has anyone tried a > v6 SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000? > > > > Thanks! > > - Alex > > I picked up a couple v6 boards for my AlphaStation 200 4/233, but haven?t > tried to use them yet. > > Are you using the onboard SCSI, or a SCSI board? I?m ?going to assume > you?ve tried a different cable, and to get it working from actual physical > drives? Have you tried turning the termination on, on the board? Is your > SCSI Bus Terminated? > > You actually have RZ40?s in the system? I?m asking as I?m not actually > familiar with that drive type, at least it?s not one I remember off the top > fo my head. I usually use RZ29?s. On my v5.2 board on my VAXstation > 4000/90 I think I went with basic 8GB drives, without a vendor string or > product string. > > > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 09:05:30 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:05:30 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company Message-ID: I found this interesting for perspective. The British media (and AFAICS of Australia, New Zealand and several bits of Europe) have been saturated with coverage of a much-loved, widely-celebrated and revered hero of tech. As FC points out, even the American _tech_ media barely noticed. ? The prescient, quirky legacy of U.K. gadget inventor Clive Sinclair Little known in the U.S., Sinclair democratized computing with his dirt-cheap 1980s PCs. Even his many failures were decades ahead of their time. ? https://www.fastcompany.com/90680349/clive-sinclair-obituary -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 26 10:40:07 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OpenVMS/VAX license expiration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Sep 2021, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > You might want to search the Github repositories of a certain "athornton" > looking for something called "yarr". > I'm not finding anything. Help! :D > Obviously it would be wrong to use it. So don't. > Oh absolutely. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 26 10:46:55 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OpenVMS/VAX license expiration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2021, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 25 Sep 2021, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > I REALLY hate how the list munges email addresses. That was intended to be a private reply. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Sep 24 15:19:20 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 16:19:20 -0400 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210924201920.GA1287950@hugin3> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 12:15:12PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Sep 21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > > > The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old rotating media. > > If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious performance reasons. > > Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs. Given that, an MFM emulator will significantly outperform a SCSI hard drive since it has no seek delays. > > David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too. > The MFM emulator can't transfer data faster than the 5 Mbit/second, 625k Byte/sec of the ST-506 standard. Seek time isn't zero due to overhead in moving the data in the Beaglebone to where the PRU processors can access it. Think its around 0.6ms/head. An entire cylinder is transfered on each seek. Additional time if cylinder was written to. Each track written needs to be moved also. Most ST-506 drives are slower. I'm faster than average seek for RD54 but it wins for single track seek at 4ms with 15 heads. From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Sun Sep 26 12:34:24 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:34:24 -0500 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <20210924201920.GA1287950@hugin3> References: <20210924201920.GA1287950@hugin3> Message-ID: <5d15f4e6-bc48-3ab4-4df3-addd56562352@12bitsbest.com> I just purchased an RK05 Controller for my PDP-8/E, does this emulator work to emulate RK05 packs?? If it does then maybe I can use it as mass storage until i can find an RK05 (or Plessey or Diablo clones) . Thanks... On 9/24/2021 3:19 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 12:15:12PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Sep 21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old rotating media. >>> If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious performance reasons. >> Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs. Given that, an MFM emulator will significantly outperform a SCSI hard drive since it has no seek delays. >> >> David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too. >> > The MFM emulator can't transfer data faster than the 5 Mbit/second, > 625k Byte/sec of the ST-506 standard. > > Seek time isn't zero due to overhead in moving the data in the Beaglebone > to where the PRU processors can access it. Think its around 0.6ms/head. An > entire cylinder is transfered on each seek. Additional time if cylinder > was written to. Each track written needs to be moved also. Most ST-506 > drives are slower. I'm faster than average seek for RD54 but it wins for > single track seek at 4ms with 15 heads. > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Sun Sep 26 12:34:24 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:34:24 -0500 Subject: Burnable, patched Microvax-2000 SCSI-boot EPROM images? In-Reply-To: <20210924201920.GA1287950@hugin3> References: <20210924201920.GA1287950@hugin3> Message-ID: <5d15f4e6-bc48-3ab4-4df3-addd56562352@12bitsbest.com> I just purchased an RK05 Controller for my PDP-8/E, does this emulator work to emulate RK05 packs?? If it does then maybe I can use it as mass storage until i can find an RK05 (or Plessey or Diablo clones) . Thanks... On 9/24/2021 3:19 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 12:15:12PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Sep 21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> The RD53s in both Microvax 2000s are dead. I'm reluctant to buy more 30+ year old rotating media. >>> If I'm going to buy a disk emulator, I'd much prefer SCSI to MFM, for the obvious performance reasons. >> Emulators presumably act, performance wise, like SSDs. Given that, an MFM emulator will significantly outperform a SCSI hard drive since it has no seek delays. >> >> David Gesswein's MFM emulator works impressively well and is inexpensive, too. >> > The MFM emulator can't transfer data faster than the 5 Mbit/second, > 625k Byte/sec of the ST-506 standard. > > Seek time isn't zero due to overhead in moving the data in the Beaglebone > to where the PRU processors can access it. Think its around 0.6ms/head. An > entire cylinder is transfered on each seek. Additional time if cylinder > was written to. Each track written needs to be moved also. Most ST-506 > drives are slower. I'm faster than average seek for RD54 but it wins for > single track seek at 4ms with 15 heads. > From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sun Sep 26 15:49:49 2021 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 23:49:49 +0300 Subject: HP-UX on HP 9000/217 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 5.1 installation diskettes from bitsavers and hpmuseum are labeled "series 300", we should try to locate the correct release (I also have 217 without software). Regards, Plamen On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 8:06 PM Larkin Nickle via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hey all, > > According to > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/9000_200/9000-200_periphSupp_Dec89.pdf > (see PDF page 2), it seems as if HP-UX 5.1 should work on the 9000/217. > http://hparchive.com/Catalogs/HP-Catalog-1986.pdf also seems to confirm > this (PDF page 71 under Series 200 Bundled Systems, it's mentioned that > the Model 217 can run single-user HP-UX). However, there seems to be > conflicted information based on people that I've talked to and the > hpmuseum page with a copy of HP-UX 5.1 whether it should work at all, > whether 5.1 is a unified release where the boot floppy should work on > both series 200 and 300, or whether there's another boot floppy for > series 200 which apparently has not been archived. > > I recently obtained a Model 217 and would like to know if anyone > has > more info on this, the two people that I know of that have tried it get > a hang on boot. > > Thanks, > Larkin > From jjacocks at mac.com Sun Sep 26 16:04:21 2021 From: jjacocks at mac.com (Alexander Jacocks) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:04:21 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000/300 - T-ERR-SCSI A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sep 26, 2021, at 10:03 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > ?I was either sacrifice a data drive to make it a backup of the primary or > find a like drive first, get the system stable and then upgrade. I have a > 3000 too here if you want to work together to troubleshoot yours > > Bill > >> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 9:46 AM Zane Healy via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> On Sep 26, 2021, at 12:22 AM, Alexander Jacocks via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> I?ve got a DEC 3000/300 system that has some SCSI drives with aging >> bearings installed. I?d like to be able to start to migrate some of my >> systems, like this, to flash media, of some kind, as even my large >> repository of SCSI disks is starting to dry up. >>> >>> Here is my SRM level info: >>> DEC 3000 - M300 >>> Digital Equipment Corporation >>> VPP PAL V5.56-80800101/OSF PAL V1.45-80800201 - Built on 30-SEP-1996 >> 09:18:31.84 >>> >>> As far as I have read, the SCSI2SD v6 2020 should be compatible with >> several varieties of DEC hardware, from the VAXen to the Alphas. However, I >> can?t seem to get anywhere useful with mine. I have the virtual disks >> configured as follows: >>> >>>>>> sh dev >>> >>> BOOTDEV ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM >> REV >>> ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ >> --- >>> ESA0 08-00-2B-3F-4C-9A , TENBT >>> DKA100 A/1/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 >> 6.0 >>> DKA300 A/3/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 >> 6.0 >>> DKA400 A/4/0 RODISK 305.01MB RM WP RRD45 >> 6.0 >>> >>> All three disks are from the SCSI2SD. I have attempted to make the >> inquiry strings match the originals, as closely as possible. In the SCSI2SD >> utility, I have the following config: >>> >>> General page: all defaults, termination off (I have tried parity, scsi2 >> mode, and setting SCSI speed to sync, with no improvement) >>> Device 1: enabled, ID 1, device Hard Drive, start sector 0, sector size >> 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 ?, >> revision ? 6.0?, serial number >>> Device 2: enabled, ID 3, device Hard Drive, start sector 18636800, >> sector size 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 >> ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number >>> Device 3: enabled, ID 4, device CDROM, start sector 37273600, sector >> size 2048, sector count 148933, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RRD45 ?, >> revision ? 6.0?, serial number >>> >>> I?ve also tried booting from a virtual CDROM, only, with no luck there, >> either. In all cases, I get the following from SRM: >>> >>>>>> test scsi >>> T-STS-SCSI A - Data Trans test >>> ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare >>> T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 1 lun = 0 >>> >>> ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare >>> T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 3 lun = 0 >>> >>> ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare >>> T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 4 lun = 0 >>> ?? 002 SCSI 0x0008 >>> >>> >>> 84 FAIL >>> >>> Does anyone have an idea what might be causing this? Has anyone tried a >> v6 SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> - Alex >> >> I picked up a couple v6 boards for my AlphaStation 200 4/233, but haven?t >> tried to use them yet. >> >> Are you using the onboard SCSI, or a SCSI board? I?m ?going to assume >> you?ve tried a different cable, and to get it working from actual physical >> drives? Have you tried turning the termination on, on the board? Is your >> SCSI Bus Terminated? >> >> You actually have RZ40?s in the system? I?m asking as I?m not actually >> familiar with that drive type, at least it?s not one I remember off the top >> fo my head. I usually use RZ29?s. On my v5.2 board on my VAXstation >> 4000/90 I think I went with basic 8GB drives, without a vendor string or >> product string. I have a Quantum XP2160 and a Seagate 1050 in my 3000. Both function, but have significant bearing whine, and I have no idea how many hours are on each. So, I know my scsi subsystem and termination are fine. I?m going to pull a scsi2sd v5.2 from a Quadra 700 and try that, to see if I get the same errors. I used the RZ40 as the inquiry string, and matched the sector count, to make SRM happy. I have real RZ25s and RZ26es, but they are quite small. Most of my modern scsi disks are 10 and 15k U320s, and not a good choice for heat constrained enclosures like the 3000. Not to mention that 300gb is just silly for Digital UNIX. - Alex From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 20:44:34 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 21:44:34 -0400 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My girlfriend commented to me that Americans don't understand London"s Fleet Street scene of the 70's and early 80s and how Sinclair products were represented there. In the US the "Timex Sinclair TS-1000" was a budget $99 computer for sale in Hallmark gift stores and its marketing represented little of the fleet Street cache. Bill Bill On Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 10:05 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I found this interesting for perspective. The British media (and > AFAICS of Australia, New Zealand and several bits of Europe) have been > saturated with coverage of a much-loved, widely-celebrated and revered > hero of tech. > > As FC points out, even the American _tech_ media barely noticed. > > ? > The prescient, quirky legacy of U.K. gadget inventor Clive Sinclair > Little known in the U.S., Sinclair democratized computing with his > dirt-cheap 1980s PCs. Even his many failures were decades ahead of > their time. > ? > https://www.fastcompany.com/90680349/clive-sinclair-obituary > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From jsw at ieee.org Sun Sep 26 23:39:25 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 23:39:25 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000/300 - T-ERR-SCSI A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/26/21 4:04 PM, Alexander Jacocks via cctalk wrote: >> On Sep 26, 2021, at 10:03 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I was either sacrifice a data drive to make it a backup of the primary or >> find a like drive first, get the system stable and then upgrade. I have a >> 3000 too here if you want to work together to troubleshoot yours >> >> Bill >> >>> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 9:46 AM Zane Healy via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sep 26, 2021, at 12:22 AM, Alexander Jacocks via cctalk < >>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I?ve got a DEC 3000/300 system that has some SCSI drives with aging >>> bearings installed. I?d like to be able to start to migrate some of my >>> systems, like this, to flash media, of some kind, as even my large >>> repository of SCSI disks is starting to dry up. >>>> Here is my SRM level info: >>>> DEC 3000 - M300 >>>> Digital Equipment Corporation >>>> VPP PAL V5.56-80800101/OSF PAL V1.45-80800201 - Built on 30-SEP-1996 >>> 09:18:31.84 >>>> As far as I have read, the SCSI2SD v6 2020 should be compatible with >>> several varieties of DEC hardware, from the VAXen to the Alphas. However, I >>> can?t seem to get anywhere useful with mine. I have the virtual disks >>> configured as follows: >>>>>>> sh dev >>>> BOOTDEV ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM >>> REV >>>> ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ >>> --- >>>> ESA0 08-00-2B-3F-4C-9A , TENBT >>>> DKA100 A/1/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 >>> 6.0 >>>> DKA300 A/3/0 DISK 9.54GB FX RZ40 >>> 6.0 >>>> DKA400 A/4/0 RODISK 305.01MB RM WP RRD45 >>> 6.0 >>>> All three disks are from the SCSI2SD. I have attempted to make the >>> inquiry strings match the originals, as closely as possible. In the SCSI2SD >>> utility, I have the following config: >>>> General page: all defaults, termination off (I have tried parity, scsi2 >>> mode, and setting SCSI speed to sync, with no improvement) >>>> Device 1: enabled, ID 1, device Hard Drive, start sector 0, sector size >>> 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 ?, >>> revision ? 6.0?, serial number >>>> Device 2: enabled, ID 3, device Hard Drive, start sector 18636800, >>> sector size 512, sector count 18636800, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RZ40 >>> ?, revision ? 6.0?, serial number >>>> Device 3: enabled, ID 4, device CDROM, start sector 37273600, sector >>> size 2048, sector count 148933, vendor ?DEC ", product ?RRD45 ?, >>> revision ? 6.0?, serial number >>>> I?ve also tried booting from a virtual CDROM, only, with no luck there, >>> either. In all cases, I get the following from SRM: >>>>>>> test scsi >>>> T-STS-SCSI A - Data Trans test >>>> ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare >>>> T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 1 lun = 0 >>>> >>>> ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare >>>> T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 3 lun = 0 >>>> >>>> ? T-ERR-SCSI A - Data Trans test - nondma/sync inq size miscompare >>>> T-ERR-SCSI A - id = 4 lun = 0 >>>> ?? 002 SCSI 0x0008 >>>> >>>> >>>> 84 FAIL >>>> >>>> Does anyone have an idea what might be causing this? Has anyone tried a >>> v6 SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000? >>>> Thanks! >>>> - Alex >>> I picked up a couple v6 boards for my AlphaStation 200 4/233, but haven?t >>> tried to use them yet. >>> >>> Are you using the onboard SCSI, or a SCSI board? I?m ?going to assume >>> you?ve tried a different cable, and to get it working from actual physical >>> drives? Have you tried turning the termination on, on the board? Is your >>> SCSI Bus Terminated? >>> >>> You actually have RZ40?s in the system? I?m asking as I?m not actually >>> familiar with that drive type, at least it?s not one I remember off the top >>> fo my head. I usually use RZ29?s. On my v5.2 board on my VAXstation >>> 4000/90 I think I went with basic 8GB drives, without a vendor string or >>> product string. > I have a Quantum XP2160 and a Seagate 1050 in my 3000. Both function, but have significant bearing whine, and I have no idea how many hours are on each. So, I know my scsi subsystem and termination are fine. I?m going to pull a scsi2sd v5.2 from a Quadra 700 and try that, to see if I get the same errors. > > I used the RZ40 as the inquiry string, and matched the sector count, to make SRM happy. I have real RZ25s and RZ26es, but they are quite small. Most of my modern scsi disks are 10 and 15k U320s, and not a good choice for heat constrained enclosures like the 3000. Not to mention that 300gb is just silly for Digital UNIX. > > - Alex Difference in length of data sent or expected for SCSI-1 vs SCSI-2 inq commands? ? Jerry From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 02:31:18 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 01:31:18 -0600 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <962af04e-b5ff-9a91-99c3-d432229e78e1@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-09-26 7:44 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > My girlfriend commented to me that Americans don't understand London"s > Fleet Street scene of the 70's and early 80s and how Sinclair products were > represented there. In the US the "Timex Sinclair TS-1000" was a budget $99 > computer for sale in Hallmark gift stores and its marketing represented > little of the fleet Street cache. > > Bill Here in Canada, HARDWARE store had them. Ben. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 05:46:42 2021 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silcreval) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:46:42 +0100 Subject: WTB Sparcserver References: Message-ID: Hi Looking for a Sparcserver 1000/2000 to add to the sun collection. I?ve never seen one of these in the UK, but hopefully there might be one around. Happy to buy / pickup as I know they are heavy in the UK. Outside UK I might be able to arrange for collection. Thanks. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 06:38:01 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 06:38:01 -0500 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/26/21 9:05 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I found this interesting for perspective. The British media (and > AFAICS of Australia, New Zealand and several bits of Europe) have been > saturated with coverage of a much-loved, widely-celebrated and revered > hero of tech. > > As FC points out, even the American _tech_ media barely noticed. From the other side of that, growing up in the UK, nobody I knew talked about Apple or Atari, and Commodore was only on the radar because of the C64's capability as a games machine (and later the Amiga) - I don't think I even saw a PET prior to 2005, although I know there were a few infestations of them here and there :-) In other words, I'm not entirely surprised. Thoughts on what might have happened had the BBC's Computer Literacy Project never come about? Sometimes I wonder about that. Acorn might have remained more focused on business hardware, and the Spectrum would have appeared but perhaps not taken off in the way that it did. Would other competing domestic machines have become more widespread? Or would the country have seen the likes of Apple get a foothold earlier than they did? Jules From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 07:14:13 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:14:13 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 03:44, Bill Degnan wrote: > > My girlfriend commented to me that Americans don't understand London"s Fleet Street scene of the 70's and early 80s and how Sinclair products were represented there. In the US the "Timex Sinclair TS-1000" was a budget $99 computer for sale in Hallmark gift stores and its marketing represented little of the fleet Street cache. I can't say -- my first visit to the USA was in about 1997 or so. I know that Sinclair computers were _so_ cheap that in the USA they were perceived as toys, not worthy of any serious consideration. USAnians in my experience tend to not consider the flipside of that: in Europe, even the cheapest of American computers were all vastly expensive and only very rich people had them. *Because* they were so very expensive, what in the home markets were perceived as minor flaws -- such as the C64's awful BASIC -- were deal-breakers. If you were going to spend as much as a new car on an early home computer, then you wanted something well-rounded: decent graphics, decent sound, a decent BASIC, a usable keyboard, and maybe mass storage that didn't cost as much as 2 extra cars. Therefore things like the C64 were not appealing: terrible BASIC, terribly slow disk drives which were _also_ terribly expensive. Or the Atari 400, which had good graphics and a passable BASIC but a terrible keyboard. We didn't choose things like the ZX-81 or ZX Spectrum because they were AWESOME AMAZEBALLS GREAT. We chose them because we could afford them, and they had for their time a decent balance of features. The genius of Sinclair was that they managed to combine absolute-rock-bottom prices with a reasonable blend of good-enough features. Soon afterwards this was highlighted because, positioned in between the unbeatably low Sinclair price points and the desirable-but-unaffordable Commodore and Atari machines (and the impossibly expensive Tandy and Apple ones), came a raft of other machines from companies who were trying to get down to Sinclair prices but the results were unusable near-junk: ? Mattel Aquarius ? Sord M5 (arguably) ? VTech Laser 200 etc. Pretty much only Tangerine/Oric managed to successfully compete with Sinclair at the lower end, with the Oric-1 and Oric Atmos. And a few companies who comprehensively outdid Sinclair's specifications but which resulted in uncompetitive prices. Of these, Acorn thrived for a while, had a partnership with Apple, and its offshoot ARM is now the biggest-selling CPU family in history, now used by Apple, Microsoft and Google. Amstrad briefly thrived (especially with the CPC and PCW ranges) and then brought cheap PC clones to Europe, but failed to keep up as the PC market moved to better-spec higher-end machines. Ones that failed because they cost as much as a Commodore or Atari but didn't have the range of games: ? Elan Enterprise ? Memotech MTX 512 ? Camputers Lynx ? Tatung Einstein ? Dragon 32/64 I suspect that I've named 10 models of widespread 1980s home computer there that most readers in the USA will never have seen. I didn't own all of them, but I've played with every single one of them. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 07:23:26 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:23:26 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 13:38, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > From the other side of that, growing up in the UK, nobody I knew talked > about Apple or Atari, and Commodore was only on the radar because of the > C64's capability as a games machine (and later the Amiga) - I don't think I > even saw a PET prior to 2005, although I know there were a few infestations > of them here and there :-) > > In other words, I'm not entirely surprised. Excellent point, yes. > Thoughts on what might have happened had the BBC's Computer Literacy > Project never come about? Sometimes I wonder about that. Acorn might have > remained more focused on business hardware, and the Spectrum would have > appeared but perhaps not taken off in the way that it did. Would other > competing domestic machines have become more widespread? Or would the > country have seen the likes of Apple get a foothold earlier than they did? (!) That's a tremendous "what if" question! :-) I find it interesting that I never saw or even heard of the Acorn Atom until ~25Y after it was discontinued. Compared to the ZX-81 it was an amazing machine, clearly much better in every way -- but also about 3-4x the price, so just not competitive at the time. I think the Acorn Proton -- later renamed the "BBC Micro" of course -- would have gone the same way without the Beeb backing it. Good spec, tremendous features, but just too expensive and given that it was an educational machine, not competitive as a home/games computer with the C64. And if the BBC Micro flopped, there'd be no ARM chip. Possibly meaning no Apple Newton. And that might have massively delayed smartphones, because basically all smartphones are ARM-based. Similarly to the way that without the unholy combination of IBM, Microsoft, OS/2 and Windows, then we might have all had Digital Research OSes and multitasking before we got inexpensive GUI computers... and the PC industry would have gone in a very different direction. Possibly to the advantage of Atari and Commodore. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 08:55:08 2021 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:55:08 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world Message-ID: To my knowledge the Linux kernel was released to the public 30 years ago around this time. My dear friend swears by it and will never go back to Windows even though WIN 11 is much more secure than previous Windows versions. Prior to Linux there were other much-earlier operating systems for 8-bit and 16-bit machines we classic computer users could use. For emulators now we have a choice but do they work better in Linux or Windows? Happy computing. Murray ? From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Sep 27 09:07:13 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:07:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Claiming one OS is better than another is always a contentious issue, and i'd rather prefer that this mailing list didn't fall for the same petty bickering that can be found across the internet. The fact of the matter is, when it comes to emulation on x86 IBM PC compatibles, both Windows and Linux are on a pretty level playing field, with most emulators available on both platforms. Obviously, there's more hardware platforms that support Linux (like the RPi and other ARM boards), and many retro collectors use such ARM based systems for emulation. However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX software, and can quite easily be ported between Linux and other *NIX-likes, such as Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. As such, with a bit of time and effort, most of the emulators are fairly hardware-agnostic and can be ported to anything with a POSIX interface, opening them up to be ported to whatever hardware and software platform your heart desires. Josh Rice From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Sep 27 09:22:15 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:22:15 -0500 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: The is also the Windows Subsystem for Linux, which basically runs Linux under Windows. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/ On 9/27/2021 9:07 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > Claiming one OS is better than another is always a contentious issue, > and i'd rather prefer that this mailing list didn't fall for the same > petty bickering that can be found across the internet. The fact of the > matter is, when it comes to emulation on x86 IBM PC compatibles, both > Windows and Linux are on a pretty level playing field, with most > emulators available on both platforms. Obviously, there's more > hardware platforms that support Linux (like the RPi and other ARM > boards), and many retro collectors use such ARM based systems for > emulation. However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX > software, and can quite easily be ported between Linux and other > *NIX-likes, such as Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. As such, with > a bit of time and effort, most of the emulators are fairly > hardware-agnostic and can be ported to anything with a POSIX > interface, opening them up to be ported to whatever hardware and > software platform your heart desires. > > Josh Rice From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Sep 27 10:03:14 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:03:14 +0200 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <026001d7b3b0$cbe4e270$63aea750$@tin.it> As I think others already mentioned, there's no difference between emulators run under windows or linux... they are both limited by the cpu and amount of ram used to run them, not by the host os -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Murray McCullough via cctalk Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 3:55 PM To: cctalk Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world To my knowledge the Linux kernel was released to the public 30 years ago around this time. My dear friend swears by it and will never go back to Windows even though WIN 11 is much more secure than previous Windows versions. Prior to Linux there were other much-earlier operating systems for 8-bit and 16-bit machines we classic computer users could use. For emulators now we have a choice but do they work better in Linux or Windows? Happy computing. Murray ? From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Sep 27 10:17:42 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 08:17:42 -0700 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5B17BF24-3C09-40A5-B182-7CF7252AC7F2@snowmoose.com> Doesn?t this have the relationship between the OS and the hardware platform backwards? > On Sep 27, 2021, at 07:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > Obviously, there's more hardware platforms that support Linux (like the RPi and other ARM boards) From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 10:23:02 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:23:02 +0800 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs Message-ID: While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has "healed"). The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on Ebay. How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer had (somewhat) different algorithms. Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program these PROMs? Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming sequence)? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter From lists at glitchwrks.com Mon Sep 27 10:28:14 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:28:14 +0000 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really affordable, though. If you want to send us a blank we can program it for you, or we probably have some blanks for that part # on hand. Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, September 27th, 2021 at 11:23, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is > > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector > > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has > > "healed"). > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster > > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > > these PROMs? > > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off > > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming > > sequence)? > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 27 10:48:18 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:48:18 -0500 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000401d7b3b7$175eb9f0$461c2dd0$@classiccmp.org> Jon wrote... I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really affordable, though. ------ Same, I use a data i/o 29B for these. Jon is right, the 29B seems to have held significant value $-wise still on ebay. But you can find a reasonable deal once in a while. And.... Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. ------ I gave up trying to find any quantities of the 3 or 4 different bipolar proms used for the HP 2100/21MX line on ebay. I had significant luck contacting arcade game repair houses, and got a reasonable quantity of most all the flavors I needed. I checked back a couple years ago and all the usual arcade places no longer had them ? I do believe I saw a writeup on the web somewhere where someone took a different chip and programmed it to act like a (now) rare bipolar prom. I don't recall how successful it was - I'd imagine the speed of the bipolars would be an issue, plus ISTR height was an issue too (new chip was on a carrier of sorts, creating headroom issues on some systems). J From kgober at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 11:06:25 2021 From: kgober at gmail.com (Kenneth Gober) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:06:25 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <5B17BF24-3C09-40A5-B182-7CF7252AC7F2@snowmoose.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <5B17BF24-3C09-40A5-B182-7CF7252AC7F2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:18 AM Alan Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Sep 27, 2021, at 07:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Obviously, there's more hardware platforms that support Linux (like the > RPi and other ARM boards) > > Doesn?t this have the relationship between the OS and the hardware > platform backwards? > When there is no relationship between the hardware and OS teams (i.e. the OS team chooses to adopt the hardware on their own) you can say the OS is adding support for that hardware platform. But more often than not, OS support is a big part of selling hardware. You seriously reduce your potential sales if your hardware doesn't run a popular operating system, and to ensure that your operating system(s) of choice will run on your hardware, you pay your own developers to do the port(s). At that point, it is very much a case of the hardware platforms supporting an OS. This is especially true when other operating system developers find themselves unable to support your hardware because the needed documentation isn't available. The situation is similar with add-on hardware that requires device drivers. If the documentation needed to write a device driver is unavailable, and the only available drivers came from the hardware maker, then it is definitely a case of the hardware maker supporting the OS. -ken From brian at marstella.net Mon Sep 27 11:16:28 2021 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:16:28 -0400 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: <000401d7b3b7$175eb9f0$461c2dd0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000401d7b3b7$175eb9f0$461c2dd0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I recently picked up an EPROM+ programming unit ( https://www.arlabs.com/eprom_plus.html) from eBay used in order to program a couple of PROMs. Unfortunately, I haven't actually tried it yet but the 82S23 and others are supported. The owner of the company seems to be extremely responsive to any and all questions and has a lot of documentation on the web site. On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:48 AM jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Jon wrote... > I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other > UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the > newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really > affordable, though. > ------ > Same, I use a data i/o 29B for these. Jon is right, the 29B seems to have > held significant value $-wise still on ebay. But you can find a reasonable > deal once in a while. > > And.... > Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually > already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, > apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. > ------ > I gave up trying to find any quantities of the 3 or 4 different bipolar > proms used for the HP 2100/21MX line on ebay. I had significant luck > contacting arcade game repair houses, and got a reasonable quantity of most > all the flavors I needed. I checked back a couple years ago and all the > usual arcade places no longer had them ? > > I do believe I saw a writeup on the web somewhere where someone took a > different chip and programmed it to act like a (now) rare bipolar prom. I > don't recall how successful it was - I'd imagine the speed of the bipolars > would be an issue, plus ISTR height was an issue too (new chip was on a > carrier of sorts, creating headroom issues on some systems). > > J > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Sep 27 11:36:29 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:36:29 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <5B17BF24-3C09-40A5-B182-7CF7252AC7F2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 27, 2021, at 12:06 PM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:18 AM Alan Perry via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> On Sep 27, 2021, at 07:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> Obviously, there's more hardware platforms that support Linux (like the >> RPi and other ARM boards) >> > >> Doesn?t this have the relationship between the OS and the hardware >> platform backwards? >> > > ... > But more often than not, OS support is a big part of selling hardware. You > seriously reduce your > potential sales if your hardware doesn't run a popular operating system, > and to ensure that your > operating system(s) of choice will run on your hardware, you pay your own > developers to do the > port(s). > ... > The situation is similar with add-on hardware that requires device > drivers. If the documentation > needed to write a device driver is unavailable, and the only available > drivers came from the > hardware maker, then it is definitely a case of the hardware maker > supporting the OS. True, and that's also a reason to avoid that hardware. I remember when the SoC used on the Raspberry Pi was secret. That prompted me to go BeagleBone instead, since TI published a full manual, over 5000 pages. It seems Broadcom has cleaned up their act a bit since that time, from what I've heard. paul From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 11:48:53 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:48:53 +0200 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > even though WIN 11 is much more secure than previous Windows > versions [[Citation needed]] ;-) There still are more choices than people realise. I sometimes play around with Haiku. It's getting there and is quite usable for some stuff. I have friends who are OpenBSD enthusiasts, although for me it's too Spartan to be much use. I intend to have a proper look at the Hello System, a new FreeBSD distro aimed at people migrating off Mac OS X put together by a very smart chap I know online. https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/ I have a Raspberry Pi running RISC OS, which for many tasks is a surprisingly usable OS these days. It's not great on the Web but it's entirely usable for email, productivity, graphics, sound/music, programming and more -- and it has a rich assortment of emulators for classic 1980s home computers. https://www.riscosopen.org/content/ RISC OS has new owners now who are pursuing a relatively aggressive programme of updating the OS. https://www.riscosdev.com/projects Soon it will have a modern Webkit-based browser, a new IP stack ported from OpenBSD that includes IPv6 and Wifi, and some people are working on SMP support. By the same token I know people still using Amigas, and a new wave of activity is happening in the Amiga world. The attempted move to PowerPC chips hasn't really taken off, so the company that owns the OS now is doing new releases for 68000 hardware. There are also new processor accelerators for classic Amigas so that you can bring them say 20 years up to date -- at least into the realms of hundreds of MHz CPUs, hundreds of megs of RAM, and modern storage. Given the efficiency of the Amiga OS this makes a 1980s Amiga a very powerful and usable machine today. https://www.hyperion-entertainment.com/index.php/news/1-latest-news/290-amigaos-42-for-all-classic-amigas-released-and-available (Note, there's a typo in the URL -- they're talking about AmigaOS 3.2, released 24 years after v3.1. :-) https://www.apollo-accelerators.com/ ? FPGA replacement CPUs/graphics cards https://www.hackster.io/news/hands-on-with-the-pistorm-the-ultimate-raspberry-pi-powered-accelerator-for-your-commodore-amiga-449ef0634f3e It's easy to look at modern desktop computing and conclude it's all either Windows, macOS or Linux, but there is more to life! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 11:49:51 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:49:51 +0200 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 16:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > and i'd rather prefer that this mailing list didn't fall for the same > petty bickering that can be found across the internet. +1 to that! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 27 12:05:29 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:05:29 +0000 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: <000401d7b3b7$175eb9f0$461c2dd0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Most of these older fused PROMs are of comparable speed in newer EPROMs or E2PROMs. Open collector is a hassle but not too much. One can create the needed circuits using surface mount parts for size reduction. A hassle but not out of the question. You usually have to go to a larger ROM size so it can be used for additional storage with a switch or jumper select. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brian Marstella via cctalk Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 9:16 AM To: Jay West ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs I recently picked up an EPROM+ programming unit ( https://www.arlabs.com/eprom_plus.html) from eBay used in order to program a couple of PROMs. Unfortunately, I haven't actually tried it yet but the 82S23 and others are supported. The owner of the company seems to be extremely responsive to any and all questions and has a lot of documentation on the web site. On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:48 AM jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Jon wrote... > I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other > UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the > newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really > affordable, though. > ------ > Same, I use a data i/o 29B for these. Jon is right, the 29B seems to have > held significant value $-wise still on ebay. But you can find a reasonable > deal once in a while. > > And.... > Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually > already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, > apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. > ------ > I gave up trying to find any quantities of the 3 or 4 different bipolar > proms used for the HP 2100/21MX line on ebay. I had significant luck > contacting arcade game repair houses, and got a reasonable quantity of most > all the flavors I needed. I checked back a couple years ago and all the > usual arcade places no longer had them ? > > I do believe I saw a writeup on the web somewhere where someone took a > different chip and programmed it to act like a (now) rare bipolar prom. I > don't recall how successful it was - I'd imagine the speed of the bipolars > would be an issue, plus ISTR height was an issue too (new chip was on a > carrier of sorts, creating headroom issues on some systems). > > J > > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 12:07:41 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 19:07:41 +0200 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 17:23, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. Maybe it was just feeling depressed this week. Try it again next week and you might find it works... maybe even really fast? (Sorry if my attempt at humour upsets anyone.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 27 12:33:13 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:33:13 -0700 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: <000401d7b3b7$175eb9f0$461c2dd0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 9/27/21 10:05 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Most of these older fused PROMs are of comparable speed in newer > EPROMs or E2PROMs. Open collector is a hassle but not too much. One > can create the needed circuits using surface mount parts for size > reduction. A hassle but not out of the question. You usually have to > go to a larger ROM size so it can be used for additional storage with > a switch or jumper select. In some cases, if you're handy with logic tables, it's sometimes possible to program a GAL to act as a bipolar PROM substitute. --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Sep 27 12:52:18 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:52:18 -0700 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FB2DF82-F0CC-4776-A229-E818F1D9A01A@shaw.ca> On 2021-Sep-27, at 8:23 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has > "healed"). > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > these PROMs? > > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming > sequence)? The hardware & software for a one-off breadboarded programmer is, or should be, easy enough with a ~ few-hours/1-day effort if you wanted to go that route. I did this 8 years ago for a PROM in a HP9830 - a 256*4 Intel 3601 PROM, for which I burned, and replaced with, a TI 74S387. (In the end in turned out it was an unnecessary effort, one data-line from the PROM was showing bad but the failure wasn't the PROM output, it was the input of the IC the PROM was driving.) Programmer hardware was 3 TTL ICs, 2 zeners, 6 transistors (more specifically 2+numDataLines) and a few resistors on a solderless breadboard, and a bench power supply for the programming voltage. Software was a python program running on a RPi. All program-pulse timing was done in user-land on the RPi. I can send along the schematic and program if you wish, there will be some adaptation required of course. Details of the 74S188 programming/burn algorithm is in the 1975 TI Memory Databook for Design Engineers (available at bitsavers) (I expect the 188 is the most likely type you'll find NOS today). From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 12:57:11 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:57:11 -0700 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:23 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > these PROMs? > How do you program a single bipolar PROM as a one time occurance? Find someone willing to do it for you for the cost of the postage :) Are there affordable commercial programmers which can reliably program bipolar PROMs with device vendor approved programming algorithms? I have an older Data I/O UniSite and a newer BP Microsystems BP-1610 which between the two of them can cover the majority of those older devices, and the BP-1610 is currently supported with regular software updates. I wouldn't call either of those two programmers "affordable", and you have to be patient to pick one up on eBay. The older parallel port interface BP-1200 and BP-1400 device programmers probably have the same bipolar PROM support as the BP-1610, and can more often be found at somewhat reasonable prices on eBay, but software updates for new devices were discontinued for those non-USB interface programmers several years ago. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Sep 27 13:20:42 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:20:42 -0700 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: <9FB2DF82-F0CC-4776-A229-E818F1D9A01A@shaw.ca> References: <9FB2DF82-F0CC-4776-A229-E818F1D9A01A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <7F5C0E9B-B708-4B49-8780-C555BD70C656@shaw.ca> On 2021-Sep-27, at 10:52 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-Sep-27, at 8:23 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad >> bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is >> organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector >> driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has >> "healed"). >> >> The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for >> example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster >> SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on >> Ebay. >> >> How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of >> the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer >> had (somewhat) different algorithms. >> >> Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program >> these PROMs? >> >> Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off >> programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming >> sequence)? > ... > Details of the 74S188 programming/burn algorithm is in the 1975 TI Memory Databook for Design Engineers (available at bitsavers) (I expect the 188 is the most likely type you'll find NOS today). The 82S23 programming algorithm is in the 1975 Signetics Bipolar Memories databook (also on bitsavers). Looks like it may be a little more complex than that for the 188. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 13:38:44 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:38:44 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <026001d7b3b0$cbe4e270$63aea750$@tin.it> References: <026001d7b3b0$cbe4e270$63aea750$@tin.it> Message-ID: > > > > > To my knowledge the Linux kernel was released to the public 30 years ago > around this time. My dear friend swears by it and will never go back to > Windows even though WIN 11 is much more secure than previous Windows > versions. Prior to Linux there were other much-earlier operating systems > for 8-bit and 16-bit machines we classic computer users could use. For > emulators now we have a choice but do they work better in Linux or > Windows? Murray ? > Assembly version August 25th 1991. - comp.os.minix newsgroup. C version October 5th 1991 - Linux Bible 8th edition. I started using Red Hat with version 6.2. For a while the server I put it on just sat there until I got around to making it a mail server. I still have the server but it was upgraded to BSD at some point. I doubt I have a backup anymore Bill From mdehling at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 13:55:48 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:55:48 +0200 Subject: Looking for older versions of MatLab for Unix / VMS Message-ID: <20210927185548.72kk3emlrrqcwg2k@x230> Dear List, I am looking for older versions of MatLab (3.x, 4.x, and 5.x) for Unix and (Open)VMS. I'm happy to pay a reasonable price for media kits, or, alternatively, images of the installation media would suffice. The media for Windows or Mac can be found on the various abandonware sites, but I've had no luck finding MatLab for Unix / VMS so far. Cheers Malte -- Malte Dehling From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Sep 27 13:57:47 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:57:47 -0700 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <026001d7b3b0$cbe4e270$63aea750$@tin.it> References: <026001d7b3b0$cbe4e270$63aea750$@tin.it> Message-ID: <7DF4493F-44CF-4334-9A6B-7CC06A6F7854@avanthar.com> On Sep 27, 2021, at 8:03 AM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: > > As I think others already mentioned, there's no difference between emulators run under windows or linux... they are both limited by the cpu and amount of ram used to run them, not by the host os The real difference is in the emulators available under one or the other platform. Realistically, for many/most people, that?s the first thing to look at, are the Applications I need to run available for Linux, MacOS, or Windows. End result, many of us have all three, and others. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:05:26 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:05:26 -0700 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: <7F5C0E9B-B708-4B49-8780-C555BD70C656@shaw.ca> References: <9FB2DF82-F0CC-4776-A229-E818F1D9A01A@shaw.ca> <7F5C0E9B-B708-4B49-8780-C555BD70C656@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:20 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > The 82S23 programming algorithm is in the 1975 Signetics Bipolar Memories databook (also on bitsavers). > Looks like it may be a little more complex than that for the 188. http://www.bitsavers.org/components/signetics/_dataBooks/1977_Signetics_Bipolar_and_MOS_Memory.pdf Page 91, timing diagram on Page 92 82S23 PROGRAMMING PROCEDURE 1. Terminate all device outputs with a 10K Ohm resistor to Vcc. 2. Select the address to be programmed, and raise Vcc to Vccp = +10 ? 0.5V. 3. After 10us delay, apply Iout = 65 ? 3mA to the output to be programmed. Program one output at a time. 4. After 10us delay, pulse the /CE input to logic low for 0.3 to 0.5us. 5. After 10us delay, remove Iout from the programmed output. 6. After 10us delay, return Vcc to 0V. 7. To verify programming, after 50us delay, raise Vcc to Vcch = +5.5 ? 0.2V, and apply a logic low level to the /CE input. The programmed output should remain in the high state. Again, lower Vcc to Vccl = +4.5 ? 0.2V, and verify that the programmed output remains in the high state. 8. Raise Vcc to Vccp = +10 ? 0.5V and repeat steps 3 through 7 to program other bits at the same address. 9. After 10us delay, repeat steps 2 through 8 to program all other address locations. http://www.bitsavers.org/components/signetics/_dataBooks/1975_Signetics_Bipolar_Memories.pdf Page 24, timing diagram on Page 25 Same as above, except different timing in step 4. 4. After 10us delay, pulse the /CE input to logic "0" for 1 to 2 ms. (of course in case of typos above, refer to the manuals) From me at larbob.org Mon Sep 27 14:05:08 2021 From: me at larbob.org (Larkin Nickle) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:05:08 -0400 Subject: Old HP-UX CD codewords Message-ID: Hello, Is there a list of codewords for old HP-UX media anywhere? I'm messing with HP-UX 10.20 and OnlineJFS seems to be present on the first application CD but is locked behind a codeword, which I can't seem to find anywhere. I have the December '01 application disks handy but no codewords. Thanks. From me at larbob.org Mon Sep 27 14:37:16 2021 From: me at larbob.org (Larkin Nickle) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:37:16 -0400 Subject: Old HP-UX CD codewords In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3db75c32-937a-ccf5-c1bb-cf3321fd1a81@larbob.org> On 2021-09-27 15:05, Larkin Nickle via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > ????Is there a list of codewords for old HP-UX media anywhere? I'm > messing with HP-UX 10.20 and OnlineJFS seems to be present on the first > application CD but is locked behind a codeword, which I can't seem to > find anywhere. I have the December '01 application disks handy but no > codewords. > > Thanks. The Application CDs in the Tenox Archive from November '97 seem to be unlocked. From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Sep 27 15:40:08 2021 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:40:08 -0300 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210927204013.A4E209C09DB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> While the American public were very ignorant of Sinclair's achievements, the US home computer makers were very worried about them. In 1983 both Commodore and Texas Instruments were working on their "ZX81 killers". https://www.99er.net/992.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_16 -- Jecel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 27 15:49:49 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My girlfriend commented to me that Americans don't understand London"s > Fleet Street scene of the 70's and early 80s and how Sinclair products > were represented there. In the US the "Timex Sinclair TS-1000" was a > budget $99 computer for sale in Hallmark gift stores and its marketing > represented little of the fleet Street cache. They rarely even made it into stores. They were more of a magazine ad for "Real computer for $49.95" (which was about 25 pounds at the time) If they made it into stores, they might have ended up hanging on a peg next to a blister pack of half a dozen rubber wedge doorstops. I think that it is truly tragic about the price gouging. A number of people have commented that computers were sold as if the exchange rate was 1:1! A computer that sold for $1000 would be sold in UK for 1000 GBP! (the equivalent of $3000) As soon as they came out, I bought a TRS80 for $400 (it would have been $600 if I didn't already have a CCTV composite monitor and a tape recorder). How much did the TRS80 sell for in UK? So, in USA, you had arguments between $600 TRS80 and $600 Commodore PET, with the wealthier kids buying Apple. When the IBM PC (5150) came out in August 1981, it was less that $2000, if you supplied your own RAM, floppy drives, and monitor. (~$1300 + CGA + FDC) They were in the price range of a cheap used car. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cym224 at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 16:15:24 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:15:24 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 2021-09-27 10:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote (in part): > > However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX software, and > can quite easily be ported between Linux and other *NIX-likes, such as > Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. I cannot agree.? Many developers ensure that their software runs under their particular distribution and then call it POSIX. Porting to UNIX systems, such as Solaris or macOS, can be difficult and tedious.? (Of course, this is not a Linux issue.) N. From mark at markesystems.com Mon Sep 27 16:30:17 2021 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:30:17 -0700 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs (Tom Hunter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9EC77AC97E824B9AB2709E77C99CE4D2@Daedalus> From: Tom Hunter Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the > faster > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > had (somewhat) different algorithms. I built a project using Russian clones of the 74188, and ended up building a programmer for them. The programming process is slow (over a minute to program 32 bytes), draws quite a bit of power (the chip is uncomfortably warm afterwards), and it took a while to work out the programming algorithm. Also, as Tom Hunter mentioned, the programming process isn't perfect - about 5% don't program correctly; I don't know if this is my algorithm or the fact that the clones aren't so good. However, once programmed, they seem to work just fine. I bought the Russian devices off eBay for cheap - I think they were about $0.20 apiece, so I got a hundred of them, which I've been slowly nibbling away at as my little product sells. I still have several dozen left; if you'd like you could send me the hex file (or listing - it's only 32 bytes, which I could type in), and I could program a couple for you. I'm not sure I could recommend building your own programmer. It's obviously possible, and there are hand-operated versions floating around on the internet (really hand-operated: set a rotary switch for the bit and five address switches, turn on the power, and push a button for 1-1/2 seconds; repeat for every "1" bit in the PROM), but you'd need more than just the Arduino. You need eight high-side drivers that will handle an amp apiece, plus another driver to switch the power supply voltage between 5 and 13.5 volts, as well as writing a program to implement the algorithm. (actually, it's slow enough that you could get by using relays for all the higher voltage switching.) I don't believe that any modern programmer handles these - if the Data I/O does, then that's probably your only option. ~~ Mark Moulding From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Sep 27 16:30:56 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:30:56 -0700 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-09-27 10:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote (in part): >> >> However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX software, and can quite easily be ported between Linux and other *NIX-likes, such as Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. > > I cannot agree. Many developers ensure that their software runs under their particular distribution and then call it POSIX. Porting to UNIX systems, such as Solaris or macOS, can be difficult and tedious. (Of course, this is not a Linux issue.) > > N. This also sums up nicely what is Linux?s greatest failing. Software vendors need ?Linux?, and what they get is ?Red Hat?, ?SLES?, ?Ubuntu?, etc. and as a result, the users suffer. This is why most commercial apps target MacOS and Windows, or more often than not, just Windows. One vendor I work with is looking at supporting something in Linux, the problem being, they have to re-implement it for each distro. That?s just one of the issues they face it supporting Linux. Zane From jim at deitygraveyard.com Mon Sep 27 17:11:09 2021 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:11:09 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <026001d7b3b0$cbe4e270$63aea750$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 2:39 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > To my knowledge the Linux kernel was released to the public 30 years ago > > around this time. My dear friend swears by it and will never go back to > > Windows even though WIN 11 is much more secure than previous Windows > > versions. Prior to Linux there were other much-earlier operating systems > > for 8-bit and 16-bit machines we classic computer users could use. For > > emulators now we have a choice but do they work better in Linux or > > Windows? Murray ? > > > > Assembly version August 25th 1991. - comp.os.minix newsgroup. > C version October 5th 1991 - Linux Bible 8th edition. First release September 17th 1991 - Linus Torvalds a few days ago http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2109.2/03485.html I've been using it since 9/17/1992 +/- a few days. Jim From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Sep 27 17:43:42 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:43:42 -0600 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0044420e-e95f-bc05-2b7f-145b6e029a7e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 9/27/21 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > This also sums up nicely what is Linux?s greatest failing. > Software vendors need ?Linux?, and what they get is ?Red Hat?, > ?SLES?, ?Ubuntu?, etc. and as a result, the users suffer. The same can be, and was, said about Unix. IRIX, Solaris, SunOS, AIX, HP-UX, OpenServer, UnixWare, what have you. They were all Unix operating systems, if not actually licensed to use the Unix name. Yet they were as different from each other as different Linux distributions can be. Microsoft has even had this problem with Windows 3.x, Windows 9x, and NT / 2k. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 19:04:21 2021 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:04:21 -0400 Subject: CCtalk on Linux vs Windows Message-ID: I quite agree that one OS isn?t better than another. It is one?s personal choice. However, it would be amiss of me not to acknowledge that some people prefer one over another and will do so until someone proves otherwise. My dear friend and I don?t let this situation get in the way of our relationship though. In the past I have run both WIN and Linux on my machine ? a dual-boot situation I will not carry forward with WIN 11 ? and find Linux does some things better than Windows particularly when I run an emulator(It is based on a Coleco ADAM I?ve had since1984.) Happy computing. Murray ? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 22:24:51 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:24:51 -0600 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4899e60b-c835-e80f-b9e5-40ac40f9bc28@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-09-27 5:38 a.m., Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 9/26/21 9:05 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> I found this interesting for perspective. The British media (and >> AFAICS of Australia, New Zealand and several bits of Europe) have been >> saturated with coverage of a much-loved, widely-celebrated and revered >> hero of tech. >> >> As FC points out, even the American _tech_ media barely noticed. > > From the other side of that, growing up in the UK, nobody I knew talked > about Apple or Atari, and Commodore was only on the radar because of the > C64's capability as a games machine (and later the Amiga) - I don't > think I even saw a PET prior to 2005, although I know there were a few > infestations of them here and there :-) > Commodore in the USA/CANADA was often pressed into service for a cheap text video overlay for broadcast TV. Was that TV overlay ever used in the UK or Europe? Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 22:35:34 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:35:34 -0600 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <5B17BF24-3C09-40A5-B182-7CF7252AC7F2@snowmoose.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <5B17BF24-3C09-40A5-B182-7CF7252AC7F2@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <07e253c0-b938-d005-d0df-64d4cfb7d3e1@jetnet.ab.ca> More like you sell the hardware, then write the software. Look at APPLE was 68000 now the Apple/386 style cpu. Hardware has no meaning. Never a fan of RISC or modern designs because you got speed by being able pipeline DRAM access, not because of RISC or what ever CPU of the day was. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 22:38:01 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:38:01 -0600 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <625defd9-0d8e-ee48-0b95-cca004d0acf9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-09-27 9:23 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has > "healed"). > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > these PROMs? > > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming > sequence)? > > Thanks and best regards > Tom Hunter > http://www.eprompro.com/Index.html Does PROMS. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 22:46:56 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:46:56 -0600 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 2021-09-27 3:15 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-27 10:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote (in part): >> >> However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX software, and >> can quite easily be ported between Linux and other *NIX-likes, such as >> Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. > > I cannot agree.? Many developers ensure that their software runs under > their particular distribution and then call it POSIX. Porting to UNIX > systems, such as Solaris or macOS, can be difficult and tedious.? (Of > course, this is not a Linux issue.) > > N. POSIX requires a byte to be exactly 8 bits I read somewhere. C99 C standard? Great for ARM and INTEL, not so great for the 36 bit computers. Ben. From ylee at columbia.edu Mon Sep 27 15:14:54 2021 From: ylee at columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:14:54 -0700 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24914.9790.389878.378145@dobie-old.ylee.org> Liam Proven says: > I know that Sinclair computers were _so_ cheap that in the USA they > were perceived as toys, not worthy of any serious consideration. This was true in more wealthy countries outside the US, too. Sinclair never got anywhere in Germany compared to Commodore, for example. The ZX81 and Spectrum (and clones) did have a presence in Spain and South America. > *Because* they were so very expensive, what in the home markets were > perceived as minor flaws -- such as the C64's awful BASIC -- were > deal-breakers. You make it sound like the C64 failed in the UK/European market. For others' benefit, the C64 had about as much market share as the Spectrum in the UK (with Amstrad a very solid third place, especially considering its later start, and BBC Micro significantly behind) and beat it in Germany, Finland, and elsewhere. The C64 isn't included in the recent book _The Computers That Made Britain_ for no reason. > If you were going to spend as much as a new car on an early home > computer, If you're going to exaggerate for effect, don't exaggerate so much that your meaning is lost. > then you wanted something well-rounded: decent graphics, decent > sound, a decent BASIC, a usable keyboard, and maybe mass storage > that didn't cost as much as 2 extra cars. Sheesh. > Therefore things like the C64 were not appealing: terrible BASIC, > terribly slow disk drives which were _also_ terribly expensive. Disk drives were so much a non-presence in the UK home computer market until the Amiga/ST in 1985 that there is no point in mentioning them at all. (It's not like Spectrum users were enjoying disk drives while Commodore users were using cassette, after all.) > We didn't choose things like the ZX-81 or ZX Spectrum because they > were AWESOME AMAZEBALLS GREAT. We chose them because we could afford > them, and they had for their time a decent balance of features. Correct. The schoolyard disputes between Spectrum and C64 owners were between kids whose parents decided to pay a few tens of quid for the more capable Commodore, versus those who paid a few tens of quid less for the less capable (but still quite functional) Spectrum. The same schoolyard disputes existed in the US, whether between Commodore and Atari 8-bit owners, 2600, ColecoVision, and IntelliVision owners, or slightly later between Nintendo and Sega owners. They still exist today, between PlayStation and Xbox owners. > I didn't own all of them, but I've played with every single one of > them. :-) Most children who participated in those schoolyard disputes have long since moved on (if only to other platform wars, like Emacs/Vi, Mac/Windows/Linux, etc.). You sound like someone still embittered by C64 owners around you bragging about their superior computers. From george.rachor at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 15:52:30 2021 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:52:30 -0700 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8406685F-12BE-48C1-BEAF-EC385F77DD87@gmail.com> I remember in college we raised some money and bought 10 in kit form. It went so well that 2 weeks later we ordered 10 more kits. We were astonished to find the second order of 10 already assembled and tested. Cool stuff? George Rachor > On Sep 27, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> My girlfriend commented to me that Americans don't understand London"s Fleet Street scene of the 70's and early 80s and how Sinclair products were represented there. In the US the "Timex Sinclair TS-1000" was a budget $99 computer for sale in Hallmark gift stores and its marketing represented little of the fleet Street cache. > > They rarely even made it into stores. They were more of a magazine ad for "Real computer for $49.95" (which was about 25 pounds at the time) > If they made it into stores, they might have ended up hanging on a peg next to a blister pack of half a dozen rubber wedge doorstops. > > > I think that it is truly tragic about the price gouging. > A number of people have commented that computers were sold as if the exchange rate was 1:1! A computer that sold for $1000 would be sold in UK for 1000 GBP! (the equivalent of $3000) As soon as they came out, I bought a TRS80 for $400 (it would have been $600 if I didn't already have a CCTV composite monitor and a tape recorder). How much did the TRS80 sell for in UK? > > So, in USA, you had arguments between $600 TRS80 and $600 Commodore PET, with the wealthier kids buying Apple. > > When the IBM PC (5150) came out in August 1981, it was less that $2000, if you supplied your own RAM, floppy drives, and monitor. (~$1300 + CGA + FDC) > > They were in the price range of a cheap used car. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 01:26:54 2021 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:26:54 +0200 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 23:31, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On Sep 27, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 2021-09-27 10:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote (in part): > >> > >> However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX software, and can quite easily be ported between Linux and other *NIX-likes, such as Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. > > > > I cannot agree. Many developers ensure that their software runs under their particular distribution and then call it POSIX. Porting to UNIX systems, such as Solaris or macOS, can be difficult and tedious. (Of course, this is not a Linux issue.) > > > > N. > > This also sums up nicely what is Linux?s greatest failing. Software vendors need ?Linux?, and what they get is ?Red Hat?, ?SLES?, ?Ubuntu?, etc. and as a result, the users suffer. This is why most commercial apps target MacOS and Windows, or more often than not, just Windows. Everything I personally develop for Linux will build on all Linux distros, and also IRIX, Solaris, AIX, and, until recently, Tru64 (because I have access to those systems, except for Tru64 now). And to some extent BSD variants. It's not hard at all. And the company I work for used to have build systems for all of the above until not that far ago, but, as customers more and more move to Linux systems the build support and tests have been removed for most of the rest (AIX still hangs on by a thread). As for the various Linux distros, the issue isn't really that they are that different, it's that they don't have the same version of core software - in particular moving targets like the C++ compiler (and this goes for various releases of the same distro too). I started testing Linux just for fun in early 1992 (because unlike 386BSD, Linux supported disk partitions, and that meant I could test it on a 486 where the primary OS was OS/2). When my X terminal then broke down in April 1991 I replaced it with a 486 system running Linux, kernel 0.95c. And I was an early tester for the ext file system and X11. Even that early that Linux box was good enough to replace an X terminal, even though most of the development I did was by accessing a remote Sun box. And I never looked back - it's *always* been "ready for the desktop" for me. From rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 28 02:27:55 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:27:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: <4899e60b-c835-e80f-b9e5-40ac40f9bc28@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4899e60b-c835-e80f-b9e5-40ac40f9bc28@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7a0d6b24.5b9bb.17c2b4d8dc2.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Commodore in the USA/CANADA was often pressed into service for a cheap text video overlay for broadcast TV. Was that TV overlay ever used in the UK or Europe? Ben. In the UK, Acorn gear was used quite a bit for overlays and computer generated graphics. I think the Amiga was used to a certain extent in commercial and small-enterprise video production, but the BBC almost exclusively used RISCPC and BBC Micro's for their graphics. The Centre for Computing History (a Cambridge based museum) did a great video on the old Acorn broadcast gear used by the BBC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exW-LbLRJV0 Josh Rice Preview external media From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 28 07:14:03 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:14:03 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-09-27 11:46 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-27 3:15 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >> On 2021-09-27 10:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote (in part): >>> >>> However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX software, and >>> can quite easily be ported between Linux and other *NIX-likes, such >>> as Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. >> >> I cannot agree.? Many developers ensure that their software runs under >> their particular distribution and then call it POSIX. Porting to UNIX >> systems, such as Solaris or macOS, can be difficult and tedious.? (Of >> course, this is not a Linux issue.) >> >> N. > > POSIX requires a byte to be exactly 8 bits I read somewhere. > C99 C standard? > Great for ARM and INTEL, not so great for the 36 bit computers. We've been through this before. No. > Ben. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Sep 28 07:45:34 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:45:34 +0200 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 09:55:08AM -0400, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > [...] WIN 11 is much more secure than previous Windows versions. [...] Windows 11 hasn't even been released yet, so this cannot be known. Any claims of "much more secure" comes from press releases and other marketing materials. Microsoft don't exactly have a good reputation for accuracy and honesty here. However, it would have to try quite hard to be *less* secure than previous versions of Windows. Unless one actually needs to run Windows, the comparison should be against other platforms which can also do the job, and not just whatever garbage Microsoft churned out last time. From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 28 07:46:07 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:46:07 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 2021-09-27 23:46, ben via cctalk wrote: > POSIX requires a byte to be exactly 8 bits I read somewhere. > C99 C standard? > Great for ARM and INTEL, not so great for the 36 bit computers. > Ben. And probably don't work on your 20-bit CPU, when it is done ;-) From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 10:14:16 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:14:16 -0400 Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs In-Reply-To: <625defd9-0d8e-ee48-0b95-cca004d0acf9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <625defd9-0d8e-ee48-0b95-cca004d0acf9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ... and also has many rare ones in stock; reasonable prices, good guy! On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:38 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-27 9:23 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is > > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the > open-collector > > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has > > "healed"). > > > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the > faster > > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few > on > > Ebay. > > > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > > these PROMs? > > > > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off > > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming > > sequence)? > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter > > > http://www.eprompro.com/Index.html > Does PROMS. > Ben. > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Sep 28 11:41:11 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:41:11 -0600 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <11f8ad3f-1431-ff97-b5fa-e320a823cb42@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 9/28/21 12:26 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > Everything I personally develop for Linux will build on all Linux > distros, and also IRIX, Solaris, AIX, and, until recently, Tru64 > (because I have access to those systems, except for Tru64 now). And > to some extent BSD variants. Kudos to you. I mean that sincerely and with respect. > It's not hard at all. I'm not a developer by any stretch of the imagination. But I know from a Unix systems administrator standpoint, creating shell scripts / command structures (think HereDocs run through SSH redirection) that doing so in a cross platform way is non-trivial. I found the biggest hurtle was knowing what commands ~> syntax / utilities my target platforms (AIX 5~7, Solaris 8~10, OpenServer 5, UnixWare 7, Red Hat / CentOS 4~6, SuSE 7~9, Gentoo (~2008), FreeBSD (?), and others I don't remember) had in common. File paths and what command were one thing. Command flags ~> syntax was another. Elevating privilege to root via su or sudo or doas was ... tedious. Unfortunately I think that it's unreasonable reasonable to expect someone that has a myopic view of their singular platform to have any idea how to do things on other platforms as well as they can on their platform of choice. -- Is it reasonable to expect a mechanic that works on lawn mowers to be as proficient on tractor trailers or motorcycles? I don't think so. I would expect that someone that has a working understanding of any platform to be able to muddle their way through most other platforms. But muddling your way through something is definitely not the same level of support. So, I sincerely mean kudos to anyone that even attempts to do things on multiple platforms. I believe it's a laudable goal. I believe that each supported platform adds an order of magnitude of complexity to the overall task at hand. > As for the various Linux distros, the issue isn't really that they > are that different, it's that they don't have the same version of > core software - in particular moving targets like the C++ compiler > (and this goes for various releases of the same distro too). I had not considered what you are describing. But it sounds like a more development centric version of what I described above. > I started testing Linux just for fun in early 1992 (because unlike > 386BSD, Linux supported disk partitions, and that meant I could test > it on a 486 where the primary OS was OS/2). When my X terminal then > broke down in April 1991 I replaced it with a 486 system running Linux, > kernel 0.95c. And I was an early tester for the ext file system and > X11. I'd be interested in sharing a beverage and hearing (horror) stories. Hopefully I'd learn a thing or three. > Even that early that Linux box was good enough to replace an X > terminal, even though most of the development I did was by accessing a > remote Sun box. And I never looked back - it's *always* been "ready > for the desktop" for me. My year of the Linux desktop was '99. I switched from a release candidate of Windows 98 to Slackware '96 (an old book that someone lent me). I've almost completely used Linux as my chosen platform ever sense. I've moved around between Linux distros, but have always either directly used or SSHed to a Linux box for my core work. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 12:10:58 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:10:58 -0700 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <11f8ad3f-1431-ff97-b5fa-e320a823cb42@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <11f8ad3f-1431-ff97-b5fa-e320a823cb42@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <19d6a8e9-71c0-2227-6105-d655400e6911@sydex.com> My .02 on this is that the computing world has changed a lot since the 1990s. Back when I was using RH 5, it was useful for server-side stuff but as a general replacement for Windows desktops, it left a lot to be desired. On the other hand, it was pretty stable. Eventually I moved to an OpenBSD release--there was no need for a graphical desktop. It was pretty much a "get it running and leave it alone" affair. When Win10 debuted and I was about to lose support for XP, I decided that my direction and Microsoft's were going to be different. I still maintain a couple of systems with Win7 just in case, but by and large, I've found that Debian or Ubuntu with XFCE desktop doesn't pose any "you can't get there from here" situations, as was the case 20 years ago. There may be a few old applications where I have to resort to a version of Windows running in a Virtualbox session, but that situation is pretty infrequent. My development and EDA tools run just fine on Linux. In summary, the situation isn't as black and white as it once was. My lovely wife even uses Linux on her desktop--and she's still using a couple of old DOS applications for some things. It's all good. --Chuck From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 12:43:07 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:43:07 -0700 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> On 9/28/2021 5:14 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-27 11:46 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: >> POSIX requires a byte to be exactly 8 bits I read somewhere. >> C99 C standard? >> Great for ARM and INTEL, not so great for the 36 bit computers. > > We've been through this before. No. As I understand things, POSIX does require the existence of 8 bit bytes, (int8_t and uint8_t) and requires them to be exactly 8 bits. It does not AFAIK explicitly prohibit the existence of bytes with other sizes, but who would bother? The C standards are more liberal, and continue to require char types to be 8 or more bits. In principle then, char could still be 9 or more bits, but if int8_t is required for a *NIX, who would do it? They'd just be making a compatibility mess for themselves. It's also unclear to me whether one's complement representation would be allowed. (Various other representations would probably be prohibited by other restrictions.) Vince From cym224 at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 13:00:13 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:00:13 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <35079c20-6e5b-35ab-bf0c-d63047652e4a@gmail.com> On 2021-09-28 02:26, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote (in part): > On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 23:31, Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: >> On Sep 27, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2021-09-27 10:07, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote (in part): >>>> However, much of the "Linux" software is in fact POSIX software, and can quite easily be ported between Linux and other *NIX-likes, such as Solaris, macOS and the *BSD family. >>> I cannot agree. Many developers ensure that their software runs under their particular distribution and then call it POSIX. Porting to UNIX systems, such as Solaris or macOS, can be difficult and tedious. (Of course, this is not a Linux issue.) >>> >>> N. >> This also sums up nicely what is Linux?s greatest failing. Software vendors need ?Linux?, and what they get is ?Red Hat?, ?SLES?, ?Ubuntu?, etc. and as a result, the users suffer. This is why most commercial apps target MacOS and Windows, or more often than not, just Windows. > Everything I personally develop for Linux will build on all Linux > distros, and also IRIX, Solaris, AIX, and, until recently, Tru64 > (because I have access to those systems, except for Tru64 now). And to > some extent BSD variants. It's not hard at all. Writing portable s/w may not be difficult but it takes some discipline on the part of the programmers.? Many programmers only have Linux distros so they (perhaps understandably) only develop in their environment. > And the company I > work for used to have build systems for all of the above until not > that far ago, but, as customers more and more move to Linux systems > the build support and tests have been removed for most of the rest > (AIX still hangs on by a thread). As for the various Linux distros, > the issue isn't really that they are that different, it's that they > don't have the same version of core software - in particular moving > targets like the C++ compiler (and this goes for various releases of > the same distro too). I have the same experience.? We produced s/w that ran on dozens of different UNIX and non-UNIX systems including embedded systems.? The main point was to write POSIX C-code (and stay away from the preprocessor).? Our main issue was that native compilers were not always as compliant as claimed.? We were fortunate in that our s/w was either back-end or embedded without the need -- read headache -- of GUI interfaces. N. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 13:14:52 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:14:52 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0463BE8A-A7A9-4F69-A4D5-D2D91377135E@comcast.net> > On Sep 28, 2021, at 1:43 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > > On 9/28/2021 5:14 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> On 2021-09-27 11:46 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: >>> POSIX requires a byte to be exactly 8 bits I read somewhere. >>> C99 C standard? >>> Great for ARM and INTEL, not so great for the 36 bit computers. >> We've been through this before. No. > > As I understand things, POSIX does require the existence of 8 bit bytes, (int8_t and uint8_t) and requires them to be exactly 8 bits. It does not AFAIK explicitly prohibit the existence of bytes with other sizes, but who would bother? > > The C standards are more liberal, and continue to require char types to be 8 or more bits. You're mixing up two unrelated things. int8_t is an integer type of 8 bits width. char is the type used for characters. While in many machines they are the same size, that isn't required. C compilers have been built for machines with non-8 bit characters, from the CDC 6600 to the PDP-10 and Cray-1 and various DSPs. GCC at one time (some of them still, I think) handled all these except the 6600. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 28 14:15:42 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:15:42 -0600 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-09-28 11:43 a.m., Vincent Long standing via cctalk wrote: > The C standards are more liberal, and continue to require char types to > be 8 or more bits. Was PL/I the only language that would let you select data size for variables? Of course the fine print would not let you have more than 16 decimal digits, or 32 bit binary. You would think by now that a language could handle any length data. > In principle then, char could still be 9 or more bits, but if int8_t is > required for a *NIX, who would do it?? They'd just be making a > compatibility? mess for themselves. Is it not a mess already as hardware keeps changing standards. Look at USB or all the kinds of network protocols. > It's also unclear to me whether one's complement representation would be > allowed.? (Various other representations would probably be prohibited by > other restrictions.) My next computer will be 44 bits, if I ever get the routing timing bugs out the FPGA prototype card. I can't change the FPGA vender because I can use TTL macros like 74181, for TTL bread boarding. With the 74181 I can have any width I want, thus I can play with odd sizes. More I play with my designs, I come to the conclusion that 32 bits is not ample for a general purpose computer. > ????Vince Ben. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 07:17:54 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:17:54 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: <24914.9790.389878.378145@dobie-old.ylee.org> References: <24914.9790.389878.378145@dobie-old.ylee.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 22:14, Yeechang Lee via cctech wrote: > > This was true in more wealthy countries outside the US, too. Sinclair never got anywhere in Germany compared to Commodore, for example. This may be true; I work for a German company but I've never lived there. I know Amstrad-affiliate Schneider did well, and of course Escom. > The ZX81 and Spectrum (and clones) did have a presence in Spain and South America. Indeed so, although I think more as clones than originals. > You make it sound like the C64 failed in the UK/European market. That was not my intention. I am telling you what _I_ felt and thought. > For others' benefit, the C64 had about as much market share as the Spectrum in the UK (with Amstrad a very solid third place, especially considering its later start, and BBC Micro significantly behind) and beat it in Germany, Finland, and elsewhere. The C64 isn't included in the recent book _The Computers That Made Britain_ for no reason. Sure, it did do well... but somewhat after the market was established, and in the timeframe where kids were the main customers, wanting home computers for games, replacing adults who wanted them for programming. > > If you were going to spend as much as a new car on an early home > > computer, > > If you're going to exaggerate for effect, don't exaggerate so much that your meaning is lost. I am not. Bear in mind that the prices and market are and were _very_ different in the USA, from where you are posting. > > then you wanted something well-rounded: decent graphics, decent > > sound, a decent BASIC, a usable keyboard, and maybe mass storage > > that didn't cost as much as 2 extra cars. > > Sheesh. I stand by it. The 1541, for example, was both overpriced and under-performing. At school I used CBM PET drives attached over IEEE and those were horrendously pricey. > > Therefore things like the C64 were not appealing: terrible BASIC, > > terribly slow disk drives which were _also_ terribly expensive. > > Disk drives were so much a non-presence in the UK home computer market until the Amiga/ST in 1985 that there is no point in mentioning them at all. (It's not like Spectrum users were enjoying disk drives while Commodore users were using cassette, after all.) This is not true at all. I had a 5.24" disk drive on my 48K Spectrum before the Amiga was on retail sale in Britain. They were there, but only for serious, hobbyist users. If you want to say that leisure users/gamers didn't have disks, fine. But it's an overgeneralisation to say that they were not there -- which is the very same offence for which you're accusing me. > Most children who participated in those schoolyard disputes have long since moved on (if only to other platform wars, like Emacs/Vi, Mac/Windows/Linux, etc.). You sound like someone still embittered by C64 owners around you bragging about their superior computers. If I am embittered it is more because of what I see as the US school of computer design has triumphed: large, complex, general-purpose OSes for everything, and equip the device with enough processor and storage that it remains usable -- even if it kills battery life. Examples: ? Windows NT ? Linux ? modern UNIX in general: *BSD, macOS, etc. In contrast, what I see as the European school prospered in the 1980s-early 1990s: small, purpose-designed OSes for each role, allowing inexpensive computers with relatively small amounts of CPU and storage to be powerful, capable, and competitive. Examples: ? Psion EPOC16 on the Series 3 / Workabout ? Psion EPOC32 (unrelated) on the Series 5/Series 7/netBook/MalayBook etc. ? Its descendant, Symbian, on countless Nokias, SonyEricsson etc. ? Acorn RISC OS on the Archimedes -- still around, still being updated, & now FOSS ? Arguably Sinclair's QDOS family on QL-compatibles -- some still in production today, and the OS is FOSS ? Perhaps Amstrad's PCW range, the last CP/M computers ? Adam Dunkels' Contiki OS -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Sep 28 07:49:05 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:49:05 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: <24914.9790.389878.378145@dobie-old.ylee.org> References: <24914.9790.389878.378145@dobie-old.ylee.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 01:14:54PM -0700, Yeechang Lee via cctech wrote: > Liam Proven says: [...] >> If you were going to spend as much as a new car on an early home >> computer, > If you're going to exaggerate for effect, don't exaggerate so much that > your meaning is lost. I went and looked up the numbers. A 1983 Fiat Panda was ?3k (list). At the same time, the C64 was selling for ?345. So it's an order-of-magnitude out, but still a formidable sum of money: a factory-new rustbucket (e.g. Renault Duster) is about ?10k today and I wouldn't willingly drop ?1k on a machine with similar deficiencies to the C64. Any Brit lucky enough to have ?345 burning a hole in their pocket in 1983 would have more likely gotten a BBC Micro for ?399. The Beeb had less memory and the graphics and sound were less useful for games, but it had a faster CPU (2MHz uncontended), much better BASIC, higher-resolution graphics, and was generally a rather more well-rounded and serious machine. Once you were doing useful things on the Beeb, a dual disk drive and decent monitor would beckon, at which point the price quickly creeps upwards to that of a second-hand car. From ylee at columbia.edu Tue Sep 28 12:36:15 2021 From: ylee at columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:36:15 -0700 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: <20210927204013.A4E209C09DB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20210927204013.A4E209C09DB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <24915.21135.740177.444963@dobie-old.ylee.org> Jecel Assumpcao Jr says: > While the American public were very ignorant of Sinclair's > achievements, the US home computer makers were very worried about > them. In 1983 both Commodore and Texas Instruments were working on > their "ZX81 killers". The US industry thought that the $99 price point needed to be reached, in part because of the Timex/Sinclair 1000's example; besides the 99/2 and Commodore 16, the TRS-80 MC-10 is another example of the ultra low-cost "Sinclair fighter". The industry did not expect that a) more usable computers would reach the $99 price point, including the 99/4A ($49 after discontinuation) and VIC-20, and b) the TS 1000 didn't sell very well in the US anyway. Then the video game crash of 1983's aftereffects essentially wiped out the US home computer industry outside the C64, with Apple II and the PC for those willing to pay more. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 13:27:56 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:27:56 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor References: Message-ID: I found files for my favorite DOS editor on an archive from my OS/2 machine, which replaced my DOS machine in about 1990. The editor was ETOOL, from Amerisoft. If anybody wants the files, I'm happy to send them. -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 245248 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.exe -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 1024 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.fig -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 83968 Jul 9 1985 e/dos/etool.hlp I lost the manual decades ago. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Sep 28 14:21:12 2021 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:21:12 -0300 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: <24915.21135.740177.444963@dobie-old.ylee.org> References: <20210927204013.A4E209C09DB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <24915.21135.740177.444963@dobie-old.ylee.org> Message-ID: <20210928192118.ABD3F13C0790@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Yeechang Lee wrote on Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:36:15 -0700 > The US industry thought that the $99 price point needed to be reached, in > part because of the Timex/Sinclair 1000's example; besides the 99/2 and > Commodore 16, the TRS-80 MC-10 is another example of the ultra low-cost > "Sinclair fighter". Ah, yes - the MC-10. At least that one was actually sold (unlike the 99/2) even if it was only a few months. In 2014 I helped the local university reboot their computer museum. They made the MC-10 one of their center pieces. I pointed out that it was so obscure and short lived that it had essentially no impact on computing history. On the other hand they had an original IBM 5150 PC which they kept in storage as "too boring". I tried to convince them that it was the most significant machine they had in their collection but they didn't listen. > The industry did not expect that a) more usable computers would reach > the $99 price point, including the 99/4A ($49 after discontinuation) and > VIC-20, and b) the TS 1000 didn't sell very well in the US anyway. Then > the video game crash of 1983's aftereffects essentially wiped out the US > home computer industry outside the C64, with Apple II and the PC for > those willing to pay more. Jack got his revenge on TI for driving Commodore out of the calculator business. Some people like to plot the fall of the 99/4 prices starting with the original in 1979. That doesn't make sense because that price originally included a bundled color monitor, which the improved 99/4A didn't. TI thought that they could sell the machine at a loss and people would have to buy their expensive software and peripherals. Many videogame console makers have had success with this strategy, but while somebody buying a $450 TI99/4A might consider getting an even more expensive floppy disk drive as well, the person buying a $90 TI99/4A will try to get by with a free audio cassette and if it didn't work out would just throw the machine in some drawer. The $100 computer class violated Bell's law by being a passing fad. Every new lower cost computer class started out as a toy compared to previous computers (mainframe vs minis, minis vs micros). But Moore's law allowed them to grow into useful products. The problem was that there were no good low cost storage options. Floppy drives stayed in the $500 range for a long time before going down to $100 in the 1990s and then dropping to $10 at the end of the 1990s right before they died out. Adding an SD card reader to any of those old, really cheap machines makes them so much more usable than they were back in their day. Sinclair was aware of this, which is why he attempted the "micro drive" endless tape and the wafer scale integration battery backed RAM. Not to mention the EPROM programmer of the Z88. -- Jecel From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 15:24:38 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:24:38 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <05B36575-3D73-4323-98B6-8E07A41B6C1D@comcast.net> > On Sep 28, 2021, at 3:15 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-09-28 11:43 a.m., Vincent Long standing via cctalk wrote: > >> The C standards are more liberal, and continue to require char types to be 8 or more bits. > Was PL/I the only language that would let you select data size for variables? Of course the fine print would not let you have more than 16 > decimal digits, or 32 bit binary. You would think by now that a language > could handle any length data. Python does, its "int" type handles numbers of any size, so long as it fits in memory. If you create sufficiently large numbers it may take a while to do arithmetic operations, of course. >> In principle then, char could still be 9 or more bits, but if int8_t is required for a *NIX, who would do it? They'd just be making a compatibility mess for themselves. > > Is it not a mess already as hardware keeps changing standards. > Look at USB or all the kinds of network protocols. "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" -- Prof. David Clark, MIT. >> It's also unclear to me whether one's complement representation would be allowed. (Various other representations would probably be prohibited by other restrictions.) C certainly has been run on one's complement machines (CDC 6000 series) but I've heard it stated by some who would know that the current standard expects two's complement. Interestingly enough, floating point data is, in IEEE and a number of other formats, sign/magnitude encoded, not two's complement. Some old machines used one's complement for float, though. > My next computer will be 44 bits, if I ever get the routing timing bugs out the FPGA > prototype card. I can't change the FPGA vender because I can use TTL macros like 74181, for TTL bread boarding. > With the 74181 I can have any width I want, thus I can play with odd sizes. For extra credit, create a GCC back end for that design. :-) > More I play with my designs, I come to the conclusion that > 32 bits is not ample for a general purpose computer. I think Von Neumann would agree; he picked 40 bits as I recall. There are all sorts of interesting word lengths out there; the strangest I've worked with is 27 bits one's complement. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 15:31:54 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:31:54 -0700 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/28/21 12:15 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > My next computer will be 44 bits, if I ever get the routing timing bugs > out the FPGA > prototype card. I can't change the FPGA vender because I can use TTL > macros like 74181, for TTL bread boarding. > With the 74181 I can have any width I want, thus I can play with odd sizes. > > More I play with my designs, I come to the conclusion that > 32 bits is not ample for a general purpose computer. 64 bits is so, 1960s. How about 128 or 512 bits? Memory and silicon are a lot cheaper than they were back in the day. Why not a variable word length architecture? They were all the rage in the 1950s and 60s. --Chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Sep 28 16:19:18 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:19:18 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like crazy. I discovered the Basic Reconfigurable Interactive Editing Facility (Brief), initially sold by Underware? and then Solution Systems, in the late 80s.? It quickly became my favorite editor.? Eventually Borland bought it and killed it. Now I use SlickEdit in Brief emulation mode on Windows and several versions of Linux.? Slickedit is a great multi emulation, powerful editor.? I recommend you check it out. Deep down inside I also have a soft spot for EMACS. And, BTW, there is a native (not Teco macros) OS/8 version of an EMACS like editor that can be found here: https://tangentsoft.com/e8/wiki?name=Home I have used it extensively on my PiDP-8/I under OS/8 and I intend to use it on my real, newly acquired, PDP-8/E when I get some mass storage and I can run OS/8. On 9/28/2021 1:27 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I found files for my favorite DOS editor on an archive from my OS/2 > machine, which replaced my DOS machine in about 1990. > > The editor was ETOOL, from Amerisoft. > > If anybody wants the files, I'm happy to send them. > > -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 245248 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.exe > -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 1024 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.fig > -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 83968 Jul 9 1985 e/dos/etool.hlp > > I lost the manual decades ago. > > Van Snyder > van.snyder at sbcglobal.net > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Sep 28 16:19:18 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:19:18 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like crazy. I discovered the Basic Reconfigurable Interactive Editing Facility (Brief), initially sold by Underware? and then Solution Systems, in the late 80s.? It quickly became my favorite editor.? Eventually Borland bought it and killed it. Now I use SlickEdit in Brief emulation mode on Windows and several versions of Linux.? Slickedit is a great multi emulation, powerful editor.? I recommend you check it out. Deep down inside I also have a soft spot for EMACS. And, BTW, there is a native (not Teco macros) OS/8 version of an EMACS like editor that can be found here: https://tangentsoft.com/e8/wiki?name=Home I have used it extensively on my PiDP-8/I under OS/8 and I intend to use it on my real, newly acquired, PDP-8/E when I get some mass storage and I can run OS/8. On 9/28/2021 1:27 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I found files for my favorite DOS editor on an archive from my OS/2 > machine, which replaced my DOS machine in about 1990. > > The editor was ETOOL, from Amerisoft. > > If anybody wants the files, I'm happy to send them. > > -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 245248 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.exe > -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 1024 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.fig > -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 83968 Jul 9 1985 e/dos/etool.hlp > > I lost the manual decades ago. > > Van Snyder > van.snyder at sbcglobal.net > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 16:29:20 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:29:20 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <319062be-f253-0ae9-1ac3-10c5b347f840@sydex.com> On 9/28/21 2:19 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like > crazy. My lovely wife still uses QEdit under a DOS emulator running on Linux. I occasionally still use an editor that I wrote for CP/M-80, and then ported to MS-DOS. The advantage is that it's very small and I can modify it at will. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 28 16:29:55 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like crazy. "Baby Duck Syndrome": you bond to the first one. Any time you are tempted to switch, everything that any other one does differently is "just all wrong". If you are eventually compelled to switch, you will bond to a new one; and every other one "just does it all wrong". I was compelled to switch many times, and had to learn severaal different one. They ALL "do it all wrong". I did my PhD written exams on Windows Write. I was the first person in SLIS (UCBerkeley "School of Library and Information Studies") to do them on a computer - "Unless you want to admit that you grade on penmanship." 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 28 16:44:34 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin via cctalk at "Sep 28, 21 02:29:55 pm" Message-ID: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> > 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." (written in vi) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Faith is to be sure of what you hope for. -- The Kry, "Take My Hand" ------- From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 28 16:48:53 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:48:53 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> > "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out > how to exit it." :q you're welcome From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Sep 28 16:55:07 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:55:07 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fred Cisin said "'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles.? Such as VI VS EMACS." I cannot agree more.? I know many people who live in VI thought I cannot fathom why.? My first screen based editor (as opposed to a text editor), in 1980, was John F. Wakerly's Programma Improved Editor (Pie) for the Flex Operating System on a Gimix 6809 system. It was not a modal editor, the cursor keys and editing keys were active all the time.? So I never got used to or understood an editor where you had to change modes to either type or move the cursor (like VI). Tongue in cheek here "Vi is just a semi visual front end hacked on the Unix line oriented text editor Ed".? Please don't flame me or start a war with me for saying that.? But it is true. From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Sep 28 16:56:27 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:56:27 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Hold down the shift key and press the letter Z twice?. You're free, you're free and freedom tastes like reality... On 9/28/2021 4:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. > "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out > how to exit it." > > (written in vi) > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Sep 28 17:02:00 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:02:00 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't >> figure out >> how to exit it." > > :q > > you're welcome > Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. thanks Jim From cube1 at charter.net Tue Sep 28 17:03:51 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:03:51 -0500 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/28/2021 2:15 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-28 11:43 a.m., Vincent Long standing via cctalk wrote: > >> The C standards are more liberal, and continue to require char types >> to be 8 or more bits. > Was PL/I the only language that would let you select data size for > variables? Of course the fine print would not let you have more than 16 > decimal digits, or 32 bit binary. You would think by now that a language > could handle any length data. > Hardly. FORTRAN: INTEGER*4 INTEGER*8 (and sometimes INTEGER*2 - e.g. Sun FORTRAN-77) was common, though never adopted as a standard. Also REAL vs. DOUBLE. COBOL: COMP-1 and COMP-2 for floating point: single and double precision. Pascal, Ada: specified range of values. How that actually got implemented would be implementation dependent. And more, I'm sure. As for any length of data, that becomes a cost/return question. Adding that capability would create no end of headaches for language implementation, so it isn't done. Instead, if one actually needed that, one would define a type (with methods) or a set of functions to accomplish that - and no doubt many exist out on the 'net. >> ?????Vince > Ben. JRJ From brain at jbrain.com Tue Sep 28 17:06:56 2021 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:06:56 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8fcba39d-6734-b4e3-a1cc-1dfc1f415110@jbrain.com> On 9/28/2021 4:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. > "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out > how to exit it." > > (written in vi) > I try to stay out of the VI/Emacs war, but I do use VI on all my devices.? I had a portable DOS, OS/2, Win16 console, Win32Console, Linux set of floppies I could easily pop in to have VI on any machine I needed to work on/with. It was less of affinity for the specific editor as it was just a need for some consistency so I could focus attention on other things. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Sep 28 17:12:07 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:12:07 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: To Exit EMACS:? Control-X Control-C? On 9/28/2021 5:02 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >>> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't >>> figure out >>> how to exit it." >> >> :q >> >> you're welcome >> > Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. > thanks > Jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Sep 28 17:13:04 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:13:04 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <37051dc6-22d7-6fdd-c1f8-8b368e2eeda9@shiresoft.com> On 9/28/21 3:02 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >>> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't >>> figure out >>> how to exit it." >> >> :q >> >> you're welcome >> > Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. Why would you ever want to get out of EMACS?? ;-) Editors I've used: * SOS (Son-Of-Stopgap) on TOPS-10 * TECO-10 on TOPS-10 * XEDIT on VM/370 * EMACS I only use VI if I absolutely must and always have issues with the modality. -- TTFN - Guy From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 28 17:15:55 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: from jim stephens via cctalk at "Sep 28, 21 03:02:00 pm" Message-ID: <202109282215.18SMFtvK20381800@floodgap.com> > > > "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't > > > figure out how to exit it." > > > > :q > > > > you're welcome > > Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. I think people missed the part where I said I typed the reply (and, for that matter, this reply) in vi. But it's still my favourite vi joke. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to not finish sentences, but now I ---------------------------------- From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 17:16:11 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 23:16:11 +0100 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <37051dc6-22d7-6fdd-c1f8-8b368e2eeda9@shiresoft.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <37051dc6-22d7-6fdd-c1f8-8b368e2eeda9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On 28 Sep 2021, at 23:13, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/28/21 3:02 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out >>>> how to exit it." >>> >>> :q >>> >>> you're welcome >>> >> Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. > > Why would you ever want to get out of EMACS? ;-) For some reason it?s embedded in my cranium that to exit TECO it?s CTRL-C . No idea why I remember that since I?ve not used TECO since the 80s, and only then out of curiosity. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 17:19:43 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:19:43 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <319062be-f253-0ae9-1ac3-10c5b347f840@sydex.com> References: <319062be-f253-0ae9-1ac3-10c5b347f840@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 14:29 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/28/21 2:19 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it > > like > > crazy. > > My lovely wife still uses QEdit under a DOS emulator running on > Linux. > > I occasionally still use an editor that I wrote for CP/M-80, and then > ported to MS-DOS.? The advantage is that it's very small and I can > modify it at will. > > --Chuck I started using nedit when I switched from OS/2 to Linux. I like it much better than the ones I used earlier. As others have notices, all the others do everything wrong. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 17:34:15 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:34:15 -0700 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 17:03 -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-09-28 11:43 a.m., Vincent Long standing via cctalk wrote: > > > > > The C standards are more liberal, and continue to require char > > > types > > > to be 8 or more bits. > > Was PL/I the only language that would let you select data size for > > variables? Of course the fine print would not let you have more > > than 16 > > decimal digits, or 32 bit binary. You would think by now that a > > language > > could handle any length data. > > > > Hardly. > > FORTRAN:? INTEGER*4 INTEGER*8 (and sometimes INTEGER*2 - e.g. Sun > FORTRAN-77)? was common, though never adopted as a standard.? Also > REAL > vs. DOUBLE. Fortran 90 introduced "kind type parameters" for all types. For REAL, one can use SELECTED_REAL_KIND to ask for a specific number of decimal digits. The standard does not require any minimum number be required. Both "default real" and double precision are required. Many processors provide quad precision. For INTEGER, one can use SELECTED_INT_KIND. Processors are required to provide at least one kind with at least 18 decimal digits. There is no specification which other sizes are required. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 17:38:20 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:38:20 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <37051dc6-22d7-6fdd-c1f8-8b368e2eeda9@shiresoft.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <37051dc6-22d7-6fdd-c1f8-8b368e2eeda9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <8bf792c3d028dc7b6f28e8382ab3e9cb3a430886.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:13 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I only use VI if I absolutely must and always have issues with the > modality. I was told to worry about the damage I could do to my filing system by typing my password when VI is in the wrong mode. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 28 17:41:43 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >>>> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't >>>> figure out how to exit it." >>> :q >>> you're welcome >> Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > To Exit EMACS:?? Control-X Control-C???? I once saw a car with a vanity plate: CTRL K D (Wordstar for save and exit) Can EMACS be expanded enough to emulate VI? Can VI be expanded enough to emulate EMACS? About 3 decades ago, there was some linguistic analysis of effects on writing style with some editors. There were some very simplistic conclusions, such as that small screen (number of characters/lines, NOT square footage) produced choppier writing, with more repetitions, due to not seeing both paragraphs at the same time. It really should be studied in depth, including expanding the algorithms of Flesch-Kincaid, SMOG, Coleman-Liau, ARI, Linser Write Formula, phrase repetition analysis, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Sep 28 17:49:38 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:49:38 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> On 9/28/21 3:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't >>>>> figure out how to exit it." >>>> :q >>>> you're welcome >>> Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. > On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> To Exit EMACS:? Control-X Control-C? > > > Can EMACS be expanded enough to emulate VI? Yes.? There is an elisp package called EVIL (Extensible VI Layer) that emulates VI in EMACS. Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other editors, etc).? I've written a few things in elisp to mainly deal with global changes that were more complicated than I could figure out with a SED script. > Can VI be expanded enough to emulate EMACS? No idea. -- TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 18:36:52 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:36:52 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 9/28/21 3:49 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Yes.? There is an elisp package called EVIL (Extensible VI Layer) that > emulates VI in EMACS. I confess to having Wordstar so thoroughly burned into my reflexes that I still use joe under linux. Let's not forget MINCE, either. Ran on 8-bit x80 systems, emacs subset with a nested acronym of a name. --Chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Sep 28 18:46:55 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:46:55 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1ff1b304-e234-90c6-3df4-8a00295fc249@12bitsbest.com> Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. On 9/28/2021 6:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/28/21 3:49 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > >> Yes.? There is an elisp package called EVIL (Extensible VI Layer) that >> emulates VI in EMACS. > > I confess to having Wordstar so thoroughly burned into my reflexes that > I still use joe under linux. > > Let's not forget MINCE, either. Ran on 8-bit x80 systems, emacs subset > with a nested acronym of a name. > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 19:16:04 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:16:04 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <1ff1b304-e234-90c6-3df4-8a00295fc249@12bitsbest.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <1ff1b304-e234-90c6-3df4-8a00295fc249@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <241955c2-4d09-0b2d-5c11-c7e92126887c@sydex.com> On 9/28/21 4:46 PM, Mike Katz wrote: > Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 > dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. Are you certain about that? Ctrl-C = Page down Ctrl-X = Line down Ctrl-P = not on WS One way to remember this is to look at the keyboard and visualize a "diamond" of keys; center is S and D for character left and right, Below is X for line down, above is E for line up. Similarly, next to X you have C, for page down, Next to E is R, for page up. And so on... --Chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Sep 28 19:30:15 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 19:30:15 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <241955c2-4d09-0b2d-5c11-c7e92126887c@sydex.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <1ff1b304-e234-90c6-3df4-8a00295fc249@12bitsbest.com> <241955c2-4d09-0b2d-5c11-c7e92126887c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <184122d2-8dae-2460-91e1-f040bd25a4ee@12bitsbest.com> You are correct, in WordStar I was Control-K + C for copy, Control-K + V for move block.? In Windows it's Control-C for copy and Control-V for paste. I was wrong about control P, that is print in windows. Sorry, my memory is going. In my defense its still C for copy and V for paste in both. On 9/28/2021 7:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/28/21 4:46 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >> Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 >> dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. > Are you certain about that? > > Ctrl-C = Page down > Ctrl-X = Line down > Ctrl-P = not on WS > > One way to remember this is to look at the keyboard and visualize a > "diamond" of keys; center is S and D for character left and right, > Below is X for line down, above is E for line up. > > Similarly, next to X you have C, for page down, Next to E is R, for page up. > > And so on... > > --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 28 19:32:15 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:32:15 -0600 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <05B36575-3D73-4323-98B6-8E07A41B6C1D@comcast.net> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> <05B36575-3D73-4323-98B6-8E07A41B6C1D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2a5fdbe1-74da-44e0-5c07-4a63bf01a977@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-09-28 2:24 p.m., Paul Koning wrote: >> My next computer will be 44 bits, if I ever get the routing timing bugs out the FPGA >> prototype card. I can't change the FPGA vender because I can use TTL macros like 74181, for TTL bread boarding. >> With the 74181 I can have any width I want, thus I can play with odd sizes. > > For extra credit, create a GCC back end for that design. :-) Self-compile Small and Bootstrap seem to be forgotten words. So is ASCII 69. I wish they had <- or -> arrow symbols to replace the = 's for assignment. > >> More I play with my designs, I come to the conclusion that >> 32 bits is not ample for a general purpose computer. > > I think Von Neumann would agree; he picked 40 bits as I recall. There are all sorts of interesting word lengths out there; the strangest I've worked with is 27 bits one's complement. Was that a drum machime? > paul > Ben. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 20:13:11 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:13:11 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <3a7a9ef5fed83e29da5eb418f662e9b8eded6926.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write > anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other > editors, etc) Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card jesting about "hello world." At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader." From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 22:37:39 2021 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 22:37:39 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <3a7a9ef5fed83e29da5eb418f662e9b8eded6926.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <3a7a9ef5fed83e29da5eb418f662e9b8eded6926.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor (in qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave up since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video memory. On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 8:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write > > anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other > > editors, etc) > > Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card > jesting about "hello world." > > At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any > self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader." > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 28 22:58:31 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 20:58:31 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <3a7a9ef5fed83e29da5eb418f662e9b8eded6926.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <98da50a4-7788-ee7a-5a71-0fa1937a2fe0@sydex.com> On 9/28/21 8:37 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special > ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor (in > qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that > had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave up > since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video memory. > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 8:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>> Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write >>> anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other >>> editors, etc) >> >> Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card >> jesting about "hello world." >> >> At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any >> self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader." Mine was in assembly and Ctrol-V signified a literal character, no matter what it was. Wordstar has a similar feature, IIRC. Of course, all of the I/O string handling was count+data, not "delimeted by null", so that made it easier. --Chuck From doug at doughq.com Tue Sep 28 23:07:39 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:07:39 +1000 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <98da50a4-7788-ee7a-5a71-0fa1937a2fe0@sydex.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <3a7a9ef5fed83e29da5eb418f662e9b8eded6926.camel@sbcglobal.net> <98da50a4-7788-ee7a-5a71-0fa1937a2fe0@sydex.com> Message-ID: I spent years working in field service, and this was a conversation I had multiple times per day... Me: Silently types 'vi ' or 'edlin ' depending on the platform Client: Wow you still use - You should use Qedit12005b its the best! me: But the next client I visit won't have Qedit12005b, so I would have to install it. Client: ......... Got monotonous after a bit. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 13:58, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/28/21 8:37 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special > > ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor > (in > > qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that > > had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave > up > > since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video > memory. > > > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 8:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > >>> Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write > >>> anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other > >>> editors, etc) > >> > >> Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card > >> jesting about "hello world." > >> > >> At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any > >> self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader." > > Mine was in assembly and Ctrol-V signified a literal character, no > matter what it was. Wordstar has a similar feature, IIRC. > > Of course, all of the I/O string handling was count+data, not "delimeted > by null", so that made it easier. > > --Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 28 23:52:59 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 21:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <3a7a9ef5fed83e29da5eb418f662e9b8eded6926.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special > ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor (in > qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that > had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave up > since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video memory. Writing to the video memory was the simplest and most straightforward way to do it, and get around QBASIC, DOS, or BIOS calls that "understand" that character 7 is BELL. REP MOVSW let you copy back and forth between your own buffer and the screen memory in a decent amount of time. I had stopped using BASIC by the time that QBASIC came out, but in BASIC, BASICA, GWBASIC (It was once "Gee Whiz BASIC", but Microsoft claims that they don't remember what "GW" stood for!), you can DEF SEG and then POKE -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 28 16:24:19 2021 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:24:19 -0400 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: <20210928192118.ABD3F13C0790@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20210927204013.A4E209C09DB@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <24915.21135.740177.444963@dobie-old.ylee.org> <20210928192118.ABD3F13C0790@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <1BB018AAD8A14278A14B291F90495C20@i54570THINK> -----Original Message----- From: Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctech Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 3:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company I had a choice between the MC-10 and the Timex 2068 in 83' and went for the Timex. The Timex 1000 was useless without a RAM expander which added to the cost. All the cheap machines like the 1000, MC-10, C-16 etc were DOA because of the lack of software because everyone was making software for the best selling C64, Apple II and Atari 800. I played around with the 2068 for a while and finally went for a used C64. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Sep 28 16:30:49 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:30:49 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0LjpUd-1n6J863AQj-00bqdS@mrelay.perfora.net> Van,Is this for the manual I picked up from you? It was red three ring binder deal.-Ali -------- Original message --------From: Van Snyder via cctech Date: 9/28/21 1:07 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor I found files for my favorite DOS editor on an archive from my OS/2machine, which replaced my DOS machine in about 1990.The editor was ETOOL, from Amerisoft.If anybody wants the files, I'm happy to send them.-rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 245248 Mar? 8? 1988 e/dos/etool.exe-rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff?? 1024 Mar? 8? 1988 e/dos/etool.fig-rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff? 83968 Jul? 9? 1985 e/dos/etool.hlpI lost the manual decades ago.Van Snydervan.snyder at sbcglobal.net From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 03:46:27 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:46:27 +0100 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2bd401d7b50e$7de66620$79b33260$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Van Snyder via > cctalk > Sent: 28 September 2021 23:34 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world > > On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 17:03 -0500, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2021-09-28 11:43 a.m., Vincent Long standing via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > The C standards are more liberal, and continue to require char > > > > types to be 8 or more bits. > > > Was PL/I the only language that would let you select data size for > > > variables? Of course the fine print would not let you have more than > > > 16 decimal digits, or 32 bit binary. You would think by now that a > > > language could handle any length data. > > > > > > > Hardly. > > > > FORTRAN: INTEGER*4 INTEGER*8 (and sometimes INTEGER*2 - e.g. Sun > > FORTRAN-77) was common, though never adopted as a standard. Also > > REAL vs. DOUBLE. > > Fortran 90 introduced "kind type parameters" for all types. For REAL, one can > use SELECTED_REAL_KIND to ask for a specific number of decimal digits. The > standard does not require any minimum number be required. > Both "default real" and double precision are required. Many processors > provide quad precision. For INTEGER, one can use SELECTED_INT_KIND. > Processors are required to provide at least one kind with at least 18 decimal > digits. There is no specification which other sizes are required. REXX has had this ability from the start. It only does decimal arithmetic, but you can set the number of numeric digits used to whatever you want Dave From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Wed Sep 29 04:37:11 2021 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 10:37:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out >> how to exit it." > > :q > > you're welcome No, no... you're doing it all wrong ... it's ZZ See . :q is colon q enter, so 3 buttons. ZZ is jsut 2 buttons (shift doesn't count and z is close to shift anyway, so one hand) .... And thus holy wars even exist inside the vi/vim vs emacs 'war' ... I use vim daily - minimal features, barley more than what vi can do. I'm using alpine email, so mostly a nano-like editor here althogh sometimes I drop into vim to do some formatting, etc. which I find easier in vim. My own editor is nano-like (I have C and BCPL versions) but often feel that I want some vi style global commands, so one day it might morph into something like that. And some 30 ish years back I was helping to "bring-up" a new unix-like system and they wanted emacs - I managed to port microEmacs to it at the time, but to do that I wanted a vi for myself, so ported "stvie" then used that to help with the port of ?Emacs but that's as close as I got to emacs... Brand loyalty and all that... Gordon From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 08:31:56 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:31:56 -0400 Subject: Linux and the 'clssic' computing world In-Reply-To: <2a5fdbe1-74da-44e0-5c07-4a63bf01a977@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4d2770e0.5a420.17c2794c362.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <9105d55f-d04e-7513-a825-78f33593473d@telegraphics.com.au> <8ed59816-7936-7bcf-6f0f-e30cfe6772f0@gmail.com> <948c7121-8e63-c554-05fb-24da87fd3da9@jetnet.ab.ca> <05B36575-3D73-4323-98B6-8E07A41B6C1D@comcast.net> <2a5fdbe1-74da-44e0-5c07-4a63bf01a977@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <34B13656-F455-4486-9538-D23BA4A66E76@comcast.net> > On Sep 28, 2021, at 8:32 PM, ben wrote: > > On 2021-09-28 2:24 p.m., Paul Koning wrote: > >>> ... >>> More I play with my designs, I come to the conclusion that >>> 32 bits is not ample for a general purpose computer. >> I think Von Neumann would agree; he picked 40 bits as I recall. There are all sorts of interesting word lengths out there; the strangest I've worked with is 27 bits one's complement. > Was that a drum machime? Not a drum machine. Core memory, all solid state -- one of the first, and as far as I know the first commercial product with interrupts standard. Electrologica X1, from 1958. Also its successor the X8, around 1964. The X8 had a drum as a peripheral device, used in the THE operating system for paging virtual memory (512 k words). paul From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 10:37:17 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:37:17 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 22:49, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > I think that it is truly tragic about the price gouging. Strongly agreed. The TI-99/4A wasn't a great computer, with foolish design compromises, but it was driven out of the market by unfair pricing. The Amiga was a superior machine in almost every way to the Atari ST, and should have been a bit more expensive -- I'm sure it was to produce. But no, another price war. And so on. > A number of people have commented that computers were sold as if the > exchange rate was 1:1! Yup. But that was probably me. A computer that sold for $1000 > would be sold in UK for 1000 GBP! (the equivalent of $3000) Yup. A particular habit of Apple, to be fair, but not unique to them. Also, the US cost of living is substantially cheaper -- e.g. gasoline. Today the average US price is ?0.80 per litre. EU average is about c?1.40 per litre. Source: https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/USA/gasoline_prices/ https://www.tolls.eu/fuel-prices > How much did the TRS80 sell for in UK? Which model? They were pretty rare here -- I don't think I ever saw a single one anywhere outside Tandy store display units. https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5791/was-the-trs-80-model-1-ever-actually-sold-new-with-that-name Model I, 4K Level I: ?385.25 Model I, 16K Level II: ?546.25 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Sep 29 10:47:22 2021 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:47:22 +0100 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a TI 99/4 when I was a kid. It was my first computer (although I used my friend's Apple ][ much more). All I can say is, what a piece of garbage. It was horrible in every way, and it overheated if you left it on too long. SLOWEST BASIC EVER! On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 16:37, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 22:49, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > I think that it is truly tragic about the price gouging. > > Strongly agreed. > > The TI-99/4A wasn't a great computer, with foolish design compromises, > but it was driven out of the market by unfair pricing. > > The Amiga was a superior machine in almost every way to the Atari ST, > and should have been a bit more expensive -- I'm sure it was to > produce. But no, another price war. > > And so on. > > > A number of people have commented that computers were sold as if the > > exchange rate was 1:1! > > Yup. But that was probably me. A computer that sold for $1000 > > would be sold in UK for 1000 GBP! (the equivalent of $3000) > > Yup. A particular habit of Apple, to be fair, but not unique to them. > Also, the US cost of living is substantially cheaper -- e.g. gasoline. > > Today the average US price is ?0.80 per litre. > EU average is about c?1.40 per litre. > > Source: > https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/USA/gasoline_prices/ > https://www.tolls.eu/fuel-prices > > > How much did the TRS80 sell for in UK? > > Which model? > > They were pretty rare here -- I don't think I ever saw a single one > anywhere outside Tandy store display units. > > > https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5791/was-the-trs-80-model-1-ever-actually-sold-new-with-that-name > > Model I, 4K Level I: ?385.25 > Model I, 16K Level II: ?546.25 > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 10:51:02 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:51:02 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: <24914.9790.389878.378145@dobie-old.ylee.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 22:05, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > I went and looked up the numbers. A 1983 Fiat Panda was ?3k (list). At the > same time, the C64 was selling for ?345. So it's an order-of-magnitude out, > but still a formidable sum of money: a factory-new rustbucket (e.g. Renault > Duster) is about ?10k today and I wouldn't willingly drop ?1k on a machine > with similar deficiencies to the C64. > > Any Brit lucky enough to have ?345 burning a hole in their pocket in 1983 > would have more likely gotten a BBC Micro for ?399. The Beeb had less memory > and the graphics and sound were less useful for games, but it had a faster > CPU (2MHz uncontended), much better BASIC, higher-resolution graphics, and > was generally a rather more well-rounded and serious machine. > > Once you were doing useful things on the Beeb, a dual disk drive and decent > monitor would beckon, at which point the price quickly creeps upwards to > that of a second-hand car. I thank my learn?d friend for the correction. OK, not a new car -- a 2nd hand, used, car. So, as Fred says, around 1980, the early all-in-one ready-to-use machines like the PET & TRS-80 were the cost of a used car in the States. ?-for-$ they cost around _three times_ as much in the UK. A few years later, the much cheaper 2nd-generation home computers from Commodore and Atari were *still* in the ballpark of the cost of a cheap used car in the UK, and easily as much if you added a disk drive... while a Sinclair was about a third of the price, and even with the (crappy but *much* better than audio cassettes!) ZX Microdrive and the interface/controller, were _still_ around the price of a standalone C64. Whereas, as Peter says and I agree, if you were hobbyist and not a gamer, a BBC Micro was a more attractive buy -- capable of 80-column text, hi-res mono graphics, and with an excellent, fully-structured, recursion and all, blisteringly-fast BASIC interpreter which also supported inline 6502 assembly language. And also *extremely* expandable -- not only could it have a 2nd 6502 CPU, or a Z80 and CP/M, later it could even have a NatSemi 32016 or an ARM 2nd processor. Not just able to network, use a hard disk, have additional ROMs and things, it even talked to Laserdiscs: https://www.domesday86.com/?page_id=2140 Definitely preferable if you wanted a _computer_ and not games. Although it had great games, too, including the seminal Elite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JCU4Hulgcg I wanted one very much, but my family couldn't afford it... so I got a Spectrum. 2nd hand, it cost one-fifth the price of a BBC Model B. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:04:09 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:04:09 +0200 Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 17:45, John Many Jars wrote: > > I had a TI 99/4 when I was a kid. It was my first computer (although I used my friend's Apple ][ much more). > > All I can say is, what a piece of garbage. It was horrible in every way, and it overheated if you left it on too long. SLOWEST BASIC EVER! Harsh but not entirely unfair. It had, IMHO, a lot of foolish compromises, including the BASIC in an interpreted bytecode and a crippled memory bus. But if there hadn't been a price war, most of its defects would have been fixed in the announced, demonstrated but cancelled, TI-99/8. https://www.99er.net/998.html 10MHz 16-bit machine with Extended BASIC _and_ Pascal included, speech synthesis, expandable to 16MB RAM... all before the Mac, let alone the Amiga. And a relative of that *did* ship, later on, in the form of the Geneve 9640, a replacement motherboard that fitted into the 99's Peripheral Expansion Box. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneve_9640 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 29 11:09:13 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An American perspective on the late great Sir Clive Sinclair, from Fast Company In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2021, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > I had a TI 99/4 when I was a kid. It was my first computer (although I > used my friend's Apple ][ much more). > > All I can say is, what a piece of garbage. It was horrible in every way, > and it overheated if you left it on too long. SLOWEST BASIC EVER! > The TI 99/4A is what you get when the MBAs on the design team outnumber the engineers by ten to one. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:16:42 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:16:42 +0200 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 23:55, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Fred Cisin said "'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. > Such as VI VS EMACS." > > I cannot agree more. I know many people who live in VI thought I cannot > fathom why. I worked at Red Hat briefly and SUSE for more than anywhere else in my career. I know Vi fans in their 20s, people born well after I first used it and disliked it on SCO Xenix. I didn't fall in love with my first editor (probably the full-screen BASIC editor on the Commodore PET), or with Sinclair BASIC's (which was pretty horrible but Beta BASIC made it better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_BASIC ) And the SAM Coup?'s BASIC -- written by the same chap -- was much more pleasant as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAM_Coup%C3%A9 But really nothing to love. Then I learned VAX/VMS at Uni and I didn't love EDT, although later I learned Edlin on DOS in my first job, and that made me miss EDT very badly. I think it was probably only when DR-DOS and MS-DOS 5+ included decent full-screen CUA editors that I actually found ones I _liked_ using. Which is why I want to properly CUA-ify Emacs -- and *no* cua-mode is _not_ an acceptable answer -- but dear hypothetical deities, the resistance from the Emacs fans... yeesh. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:19:39 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:19:39 +0200 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 00:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Can EMACS be expanded enough to emulate VI? https://www.linode.com/docs/guides/emacs-evil-mode/ > Can VI be expanded enough to emulate EMACS? https://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=300 There's something almost poetic in their mutual love-hate relationship. Yin and yang. :-D > About 3 decades ago, there was some linguistic analysis of effects on > writing style with some editors. > There were some very simplistic conclusions, such as that small screen > (number of characters/lines, NOT square footage) produced choppier > writing, with more repetitions, due to not seeing both paragraphs at the > same time. > > It really should be studied in depth, including expanding the algorithms > of Flesch-Kincaid, SMOG, Coleman-Liau, ARI, Linser Write Formula, > phrase repetition analysis, etc. Nifty idea! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:21:47 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:21:47 +0200 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 01:37, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I confess to having Wordstar so thoroughly burned into my reflexes It was once, yes. I got better. But now: http://wordtsar.ca/ > that > I still use joe under linux. Tilde FTW. https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde > Let's not forget MINCE, either. Ran on 8-bit x80 systems, emacs subset > with a nested acronym of a name. Ultimately became Borland Sprint! http://www.sci.wsu.edu/math/faculty/barnes/borland/sprint.htm -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:27:05 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:27:05 +0200 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <1ff1b304-e234-90c6-3df4-8a00295fc249@12bitsbest.com> References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <1ff1b304-e234-90c6-3df4-8a00295fc249@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 01:47, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 > dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. No they didn't. They came from the Mac: https://ieee-isto.org/isto-blog/standards-for-cut-copy-and-past/ The Windows standard _was_ Shift-Del to cut, Ctrl-Ins to cut, Shift-Ins to paste. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste#Cut_and_paste Nobody could remember it, including CUA evangelist me -- I had to look that up -- so they switched to PC-ified Mac standard. TBH I can't remember when; I am not sure but it might have been in Windows 3.0, the first release after the divorce from IBM. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:28:48 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:28:48 +0200 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: <202109282144.18SLiZ4H26935514@floodgap.com> <9385fe47-c727-5a0a-6fd8-d324d7ab4f55@bitsavers.org> <5e163e0e-50a1-7aab-3f00-8fca625aaee8@shiresoft.com> <3a7a9ef5fed83e29da5eb418f662e9b8eded6926.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 06:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Writing to the video memory was the simplest and most straightforward way > to do it "*Real* programmers use a magnetized needle and a steady hand." https://xkcd.com/378/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 29 13:25:16 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:25:16 -0600 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44bbca16-5db0-6147-2a50-808ad5666995@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-09-29 10:16 a.m., Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > But really nothing to love. Then I learned VAX/VMS at Uni and I didn't > love EDT, although later I learned Edlin on DOS in my first job, and > that made me miss EDT very badly. > > I think it was probably only when DR-DOS and MS-DOS 5+ included decent > full-screen CUA editors that I actually found ones I _liked_ using. > > Which is why I want to properly CUA-ify Emacs -- and *no* cua-mode is > _not_ an acceptable answer -- but dear hypothetical deities, the > resistance from the Emacs fans... yeesh. > I like TERSE for dos. A 4096 byte sized editor for DOS. 64Kb files only, but good for editing from a floppy when we had them. Still can be found on the web. Ben. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 14:10:44 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:10:44 +0200 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <44bbca16-5db0-6147-2a50-808ad5666995@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44bbca16-5db0-6147-2a50-808ad5666995@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 20:25, ben via cctalk wrote: > I like TERSE for dos. A 4096 byte sized editor for DOS. > 64Kb files only, but good for editing from a floppy > when we had them. Still can be found on the web. > Ben. That is really quite impressive! https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Terse -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From matt at 9track.net Wed Sep 29 18:31:49 2021 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 00:31:49 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? Message-ID: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> I've been restoring a PDP-11/05 recently and after replacing several faulty ICs I have it mostly working. I've run into a bit of a problem whilst running MAINDEC-11-D0NB (T14 TRAP TEST) though. The failing instruction sequence is: 7200:?? MOV #6340,R0 7204:?? MOV R0,(R0)+ 7206:?? CMP 6340,#6342 7214:?? BEQ 7220 7216:?? HALT This halts at 7216 with: ? R0 = 6342 ? 6340 = 6340 I tried this same set of instructions on a PDP-11/84 and also on Simh and the result is: ? R0 = 6342 ? 6340 = 6342 which is what the diagnostic seems to expect. I've carefully looked through the PDP-11/05 microprogram listing but I'm having difficulty seeing where this is going wrong. Here is a brief extract of the microprogram in the context of the MOV R0,(R0)+ instruction along with my interpretation of what I think is going on: LOC? NXT? * SOURCE MODE 0 (REGISTER), GET SOURCE DATA 201? 007? S0-1? B=R[S]; BUT BYTE 007? 001? S0-2? R[10]=B; BUT DESTINATION ????????? / IF IR<5:3> = 2 GOTO D2-1 ? B = R0 = 6340??? // B = source register ? R10 = B = 6340?? // Source data stored in sratch pad register R10 LOC? NXT? * DEST MODE 2 (AUTO-INC) GET DEST DATA, OP AND REPLACE 105? 331? D2-1? BA=R[D]; DATAIP; ALBYT 331? 341? D2-2? B=R[D]+1+BYTE.BAR 341? 200? D2-3? R[D]=B; BUT JSRMP; GOTO D1-2; CKOFF ????????? / IF INST NOT JMP OR JSR FALL THROUGH TO D1-2 ? BA = R0 = 6340??? // Bus address = destination register ? B = R0 + 2 = 6342 // Auto-increment and store in B ? R0 = B = 6342???? // Update destination register LOC? NXT? * DEST MODE 1 (REG,DEFERRED) GET DEST DATA, OP AND REPLACE 200? 210? D1-2? B=UNIBUS DATA; BUT BYTE 210? 143? D1-3? R[11]=B; BUT UNARY 163? 334? D1-4? B=R[10] OP B; BUT NOMOD 334? 065? D1-5? DATO; ALBYT; CKOFF 065? 305? D1-5? DRIVERS=B; GOTO S2-2 (BUT SERVICE) ? B = (6340) = 0??? // B = value at location pointed to by bus address ? R11 = B = 0?????? // R11 is only used for unary instructions ? B = R10 = 6340??? // B = source data stored previously in R10 ? (6340) = B = 6340 // B is written to the address pointed to by bus address Where have I gone wrong with this? I can't see from the above how the value at 6340 can possibly be 6342 Matt From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 18:39:06 2021 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:39:06 -0400 Subject: Microcomputing nostalgia & cctalk Message-ID: Nostalgia is great for aging baby-boomers as me. Back in 1978 I along with a friend bought a Heathkit H1 and spent many leisure hours constructing it and getting it to boot up! By 1984 I moved on to the Coleco ADAM and learned BASIC(Well more accurately APPLE Basic) spending too much time on it rather than on my PhD studies. Trying to write my dissertation using Writer was a challenge as was getting it to print on the included daisy-wheel printer ? all that clacking. Noise! Noise! as the Grinch says. But I did get my doctorate but had to go to S. Korea and Univ. of Education(TESOL program) to use it. Microsoft?s monopoly began in the earliest days of microcomputing. Read Gate?s letter to programmers /hobbyists to see how a monopolist thinks. Linux has come along and poked Microsoft in the eye but hasn?t done too much damage according to this writer. As written here a nostalgia for the early years may be what we classic computer-philes find so compelling in cctalk. And to be honest I?ll move to WIN 11 because the choice(s) are somewhat limited. Happy computing. Murray ? From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 19:06:43 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:06:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> Message-ID: <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> > On Sep 29, 2021, at 7:31 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > > > I've been restoring a PDP-11/05 recently and after replacing several > faulty ICs I have it mostly working. I've run into a bit of a problem > whilst running MAINDEC-11-D0NB (T14 TRAP TEST) though. > > The failing instruction sequence is: > > 7200: MOV #6340,R0 > 7204: MOV R0,(R0)+ > 7206: CMP 6340,#6342 > 7214: BEQ 7220 > 7216: HALT > > This halts at 7216 with: > R0 = 6342 > 6340 = 6340 > > I tried this same set of instructions on a PDP-11/84 and also on Simh > and the result is: > R0 = 6342 > 6340 = 6342 > > which is what the diagnostic seems to expect. Either the diagnostic has a major bug, or you're running it on a machine it doesn't support, or there is a setup to tell it the difference which you missed. What you're seeing is the very first entry in the table "PDP-11 family differences", appendix B of the PDP-11 architecture handbook. It is the famous pattern that the assembler rejects with a Z (machine dependency alert) error code. This particular pattern produces 6342 only on 11/23, 11/20, 11/35, 11/70, J-11, and T-11. On all others, including the 11/05 and the PDP-11 emulation in the VAX, it produces 6340 as you observed. paul From matt at 9track.net Wed Sep 29 19:21:54 2021 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:21:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <09fb32c6-3da1-b1c0-fa37-942b2cf396aa@9track.net> On 30/09/2021 01:06, Paul Koning wrote: > Either the diagnostic has a major bug, or you're running it on a machine it doesn't support, or there is a setup to tell it the difference which you missed. > > What you're seeing is the very first entry in the table "PDP-11 family differences", appendix B of the PDP-11 architecture handbook. It is the famous pattern that the assembler rejects with a Z (machine dependency alert) error code. > > This particular pattern produces 6342 only on 11/23, 11/20, 11/35, 11/70, J-11, and T-11. On all others, including the 11/05 and the PDP-11 emulation in the VAX, it produces 6340 as you observed. > > paul > Thanks, Paul. The MAINDEC-11-D0NB diagnostic is meant for the PDP-11/20 according to the listing though the same goes for many other diagnostics which are also applicable to the PDP-11/05. I guess this one is the exception. There is a newer version MAINDEC-11-D0NC but I can't find a listing for that one. Perhaps it has a switch register setting to handle the difference. I did wonder if this might be a model specific issue and I did various searches online but didn't find the right info. Thanks for the pointer. At least I know it's not a fault that needs debugging now. Regards, Matt From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 19:48:53 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:48:53 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: <09fb32c6-3da1-b1c0-fa37-942b2cf396aa@9track.net> References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> <09fb32c6-3da1-b1c0-fa37-942b2cf396aa@9track.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 29, 2021, at 8:21 PM, Matt Burke wrote: > > On 30/09/2021 01:06, Paul Koning wrote: >> Either the diagnostic has a major bug, or you're running it on a machine it doesn't support, or there is a setup to tell it the difference which you missed. >> >> What you're seeing is the very first entry in the table "PDP-11 family differences", appendix B of the PDP-11 architecture handbook. It is the famous pattern that the assembler rejects with a Z (machine dependency alert) error code. >> >> This particular pattern produces 6342 only on 11/23, 11/20, 11/35, 11/70, J-11, and T-11. On all others, including the 11/05 and the PDP-11 emulation in the VAX, it produces 6340 as you observed. >> >> paul >> > > Thanks, Paul. The MAINDEC-11-D0NB diagnostic is meant for the PDP-11/20 > according to the listing though the same goes for many other diagnostics > which are also applicable to the PDP-11/05. I guess this one is the > exception. There is a newer version MAINDEC-11-D0NC but I can't find a > listing for that one. Perhaps it has a switch register setting to handle > the difference. Perhaps it was written just for the 11/20 when that was the only model. You mentioned it's a T14 test -- that is actually one that probably cares about the model a lot for another reason -- differences 10 and 11. In the 11/05 and 11/20 (and VAX), an RTI with T set in the saved PSW traps after one instruction (i.e., you get single stepping). In all others, the T14 trap occurs immediately and you have to use the RTT instruction to get the single step action. 11/05 and 11/20 don't have RTT. The debugger (ODT) in an early version used the instruction you ran into as a way to see whether to use RTI or RTT for single step. Of course, that doesn't work with the other machines that work that way, and presumably it was changed later. It could try RTT with a T10 vector set to catch the illegal instruction trap an 11/05 would give it, for example. I see that the PDP-11 architecture handbook doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers... paul From cube1 at charter.net Wed Sep 29 20:27:38 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:27:38 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> Message-ID: On 9/29/2021 6:31 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > > I've been restoring a PDP-11/05 recently and after replacing several > faulty ICs I have it mostly working. I've run into a bit of a problem > whilst running MAINDEC-11-D0NB (T14 TRAP TEST) though. > > The failing instruction sequence is: > > 7200:?? MOV #6340,R0 > 7204:?? MOV R0,(R0)+ > 7206:?? CMP 6340,#6342 > 7214:?? BEQ 7220 > 7216:?? HALT > > This halts at 7216 with: > ? R0 = 6342 > ? 6340 = 6340 > > I tried this same set of instructions on a PDP-11/84 and also on Simh > and the result is: > ? R0 = 6342 > ? 6340 = 6342 > > which is what the diagnostic seems to expect. > Firstly, I think this is a documented processor difference. My PDP-11/05S , 11/10S manual, DEC-11-H05SS-B-D, in table 4-8, programming differences reads: OPR %R,(R)+ 11/20: Contents of R are incremented by 2 *before* being used as the source operand. 11/05 & 11/10: Initial contents of R are used as the source operand 11/35 & 11/40: (Same as 11/20) So the halt would be expected on an 11/05. Secondly, I have an original DEC listing of D0NB. On it I have a written note (by me) "Bugs according to (UW Madison) ECE". But there is no notation of that those bugs might be. The source in my listing reads essentially the same as what you have written (comments abbreviated to fit on my lines): 7200 012700 006340 MOV #K11,%0 ; SRC and DST BOTH R0 7204 010020 MOV %0,(0)+ ; SRC No Mem Reference 7206 026727 177126 006342 CMP K11,+#K11+2 ; Dest Is Mem Reference 7214 001401 BEQ .+4 7216 000000 HLT ; Failed %(0),(0)+ 7220 010700 SCOPE JRJ From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Thu Sep 30 00:02:24 2021 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:02:24 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> <09fb32c6-3da1-b1c0-fa37-942b2cf396aa@9track.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 10:49 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I see that the PDP-11 architecture handbook doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers... Do you mean this handbook? http://wwcm.synology.me/pdf/EB-23657-18%20PDP-11%20Architecture%20Handbook.pdf ORDER CODE: EB-23657-18 (from here: http://wwcm.synology.me/scanned.html) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 00:22:48 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:22:48 -0400 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 5:30 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "Baby Duck Syndrome": you bond to the first one. Any time you are tempted > to switch, everything that any other one does differently is "just all > wrong". If you are eventually compelled to switch, you will bond to a new > one; and every other one "just does it all wrong". > > 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. I started on 8-bitters. On minis, I first encountered EDT (on VMS), then Emacs (on UNIX, AmigaDOS, and even VMS), then years later when I was working for Lucent/Bell Labs, vi... I'm all kinds of messed up, but mostly I use vi(m) these days. It's not perfect (oh, buy, it's not perfect!) but I can have the same experience going from platform to platform to platform. That's worth it. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 30 01:29:43 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 23:29:43 -0700 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/29/21 10:22 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > I started on 8-bitters. On minis, I first encountered EDT (on VMS), > then Emacs (on UNIX, AmigaDOS, and even VMS), then years later when I > was working for Lucent/Bell Labs, vi... Okay, story time. Back in the early-mid 1970s, I found myself on the CDC STAR-100 project software being run out of Sunnyvale. While we had two 1/100th speed emulators on-site, the Real Thing was back in Arden Hills at the end of a 9600 bps leased line, multiplexed locally to several 1200 bps async lines. (Remember the Bell 209 modem?). A WYSIWYG editor was out of the question at 1200 bps and fairly primitive CRT terminals, a line editor was the choice. The one supplied with the system software was terrible and awkward, so I decided to bootleg a better one. For those of you who don't know the old iron, the STAR-100/(later CYBER 200) was a big (physically large) vector machine with virtual memory and a huge instruction set. Its fatal weak point was that scalars were treated as vectors of length 1, and so created bubbles in the two vector unit pipelines. But golly, with a 48 bit addressing space, vector lengths up to 65K elements, all sorts of fancy bitmapped control vectors, and the ability to map an entire file into an address range (leave the I/O to the pager), the thing was begging for some experimentation. So I threw together a line-oriented editor using mostly vector and string instructions and called it OGNATE (for Oh god not another text editor). It only took a couple of days of scribbling. I revisited the big vector scene a decade later after a detour into the micro world, when CDC spun off ETA systems to produce a liquid nitrogen-cooled version, initially called the GF-10, later the ETA-10. On the west coast, we were doing our initial development on a VAX 11/750, but at some point I asked the folks back in St. Paul what they were using for an editor. OGNATE! I was dumbfounded--you see, the ETA-10 has many fewer instructions than the STAR-100 did, among the missing were some of the more esoteric ones used in OGNATE. Someone had painstakingly coded emulations for each of those instructions. Ah, memories... --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 03:15:43 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:15:43 +0200 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 08:29, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On the west coast, we were doing our initial development on a VAX > 11/750, but at some point I asked the folks back in St. Paul what they > were using for an editor. OGNATE! I was dumbfounded--you see, the > ETA-10 has many fewer instructions than the STAR-100 did, among the > missing were some of the more esoteric ones used in OGNATE. Someone had > painstakingly coded emulations for each of those instructions. That's pretty impressive! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Thu Sep 30 06:03:21 2021 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:03:21 +0300 Subject: HP-UX on HP 9000/217 In-Reply-To: <71dc9ba6-1bc1-e437-65bd-e6361dedbc32@gmail.com> References: <71dc9ba6-1bc1-e437-65bd-e6361dedbc32@gmail.com> Message-ID: The version for 200 series is called 5.17 Good luck finding it? On Thursday, September 23, 2021, Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 2021-09-13 9:21 p.m., Larkin Nickle via cctalk wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> According to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge >> .com/pdf/hp/9000_200/9000-200_periphSupp_Dec89.pdf (see PDF page 2), it >> seems as if HP-UX 5.1 should work on the 9000/217. >> http://hparchive.com/Catalogs/HP-Catalog-1986.pdf also seems to confirm >> this (PDF page 71 under Series 200 Bundled Systems, it's mentioned that the >> Model 217 can run single-user HP-UX). However, there seems to be conflicted >> information based on people that I've talked to and the hpmuseum page with >> a copy of HP-UX 5.1 whether it should work at all, whether 5.1 is a unified >> release where the boot floppy should work on both series 200 and 300, or >> whether there's another boot floppy for series 200 which apparently has not >> been archived. >> >> I recently obtained a Model 217 and would like to know if anyone has >> more info on this, the two people that I know of that have tried it get a >> hang on boot. >> >> Thanks, >> Larkin >> > > It would seem likely that there is a separate boot diskette for 200 series > machines that so far no one has found a copy of. The only thing I > succeeded in booting the 5.1 that is available on hpmuseum.net is a 310. > I tried booting it on a 9920 with a 68010 processor card and got the same > result it posts the starting message and then hangs. > > Paul. > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 30 08:12:37 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:12:37 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> <09fb32c6-3da1-b1c0-fa37-942b2cf396aa@9track.net> Message-ID: <47860F43-1B5F-49F8-AE7F-B266E3D8B877@comcast.net> > On Sep 30, 2021, at 1:02 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 10:49 AM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> I see that the PDP-11 architecture handbook doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers... > > Do you mean this handbook? > > http://wwcm.synology.me/pdf/EB-23657-18%20PDP-11%20Architecture%20Handbook.pdf > > ORDER CODE: EB-23657-18 > > (from here: http://wwcm.synology.me/scanned.html) Yes, that's the one. Excellent reference, it's the only place where I've seen that entire large tables (52 entries) of model differences. paul From jsw at ieee.org Thu Sep 30 09:08:34 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:08:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: <47860F43-1B5F-49F8-AE7F-B266E3D8B877@comcast.net> References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> <09fb32c6-3da1-b1c0-fa37-942b2cf396aa@9track.net> <47860F43-1B5F-49F8-AE7F-B266E3D8B877@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 9/30/21 8:12 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sep 30, 2021, at 1:02 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 10:49 AM Paul Koning via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I see that the PDP-11 architecture handbook doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers... >> Do you mean this handbook? >> >> http://wwcm.synology.me/pdf/EB-23657-18%20PDP-11%20Architecture%20Handbook.pdf >> >> ORDER CODE: EB-23657-18 >> >> (from here: http://wwcm.synology.me/scanned.html) > Yes, that's the one. Excellent reference, it's the only place where I've seen that entire large tables (52 entries) of model differences. > > paul > The same table is also in EK-DCJ11-UG-PRE_J11ug_Oct83.pdf.? I find the latter just a bit easier to read. ?? Jerry From rice43 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 30 10:33:05 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:33:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/05 Fault? In-Reply-To: References: <893b9cbd-8de3-eedd-3575-aee1b2e017ff@9track.net> <2F57DC35-8DD3-4B71-9750-48128DA841A6@comcast.net> <09fb32c6-3da1-b1c0-fa37-942b2cf396aa@9track.net> <47860F43-1B5F-49F8-AE7F-B266E3D8B877@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6c18fa66.61f1a.17c3756736f.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jerry Weiss via cctalk" To: "Paul Koning" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Nigel Williams" Sent: Thursday, 30 Sep, 2021 At 15:08 Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 Fault? On 9/30/21 8:12 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Sep 30, 2021, at 1:02 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 10:49 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I see that the PDP-11 architecture handbook doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers... Do you mean this handbook? http://wwcm.synology.me/pdf/EB-23657-18%20PDP-11%20Architecture%20Handbook.pdf ORDER CODE: EB-23657-18 (from here: http://wwcm.synology.me/scanned.html ) Yes, that's the one. Excellent reference, it's the only place where I've seen that entire large tables (52 entries) of model differences. paul The same table is also in EK-DCJ11-UG-PRE_J11ug_Oct83.pdf. I find the latter just a bit easier to read. Jerry That book multiplies like rabbits though. I swear, any time i buy any new PDP-11 literature, i somehow end up with another copy. They're not that rare (or maybe i'm just lucky) Josh From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 11:48:19 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:48:19 -0400 Subject: SIMH KL10 usage guide? Hints? and Message-ID: I am hoping someone here knows Richard Cornwell, driving force behind KL10B SimH and associated forks. Not sure how to raise the issue of simulated RP07 drives size not matching RPO7 and looking like RPO6. Also trying to figure out how to set switches as in other KA/KL sims. I can't seem to find a means of doing that in RC's KL. Is there a usage template? I have found the docs that describe it and tte config but the questions above are not evident in my reading, does not mean the data is not there, just I have not found the clue path. thanks for any help or pointers! bad bob From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 30 12:47:52 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 18:47:52 +0100 Subject: MD5 list of bitsavers files Message-ID: <9e59aa08-7cb4-e6ae-6eff-c3f958840db4@ntlworld.com> I'm trying to list out the document scans I have and work out which are already on bitsavers and which are not (and, indeed, a fair few of these are originally from bitsavers anyway). This is probably several thousand files total, so searching manx by hand is not an option! I see that manx lists the MD5 checksum for many files, at least it does for those from bitsavers. Is there a publicly available list of URL and MD5 checksum? This would make it relatively easy for me to cross check my files against the list and whittle down to a subset that I should make available. Alternatively, is the current manx database available anywhere? I know the code is on github, but I didn't see the data there. (I do have an SQL dump from 2010 when manx changed hands, but that's not recent enough to save much). I could try to do some parsing of bitsavers-filename => DEC-part-number and eliminate files that way, but that seems inexact at best. Or I could just download the DEC subset of files (spread across the mirrors) but that seems a bit antisocial. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From lars at nocrew.org Thu Sep 30 12:50:10 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 17:50:10 +0000 Subject: SIMH KL10 usage guide? Hints? and In-Reply-To: (Bob Smith via cctalk's message of "Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:48:19 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Bob Smith via cctalk writes: > I am hoping someone here knows Richard Cornwell, driving force behind > KL10B SimH and associated forks. Yes, I do. I would suggest you contact Richard directly, either by posting an issue to his GitHub repository, or by email. https://github.com/rcornwell/sims/ http://sky-visions.com/ > Also trying to figure out how to set switches as in other KA/KL sims. > I can't seem to find a means of doing that in RC's KL. I'm using his KL10 for running ITS. Here is an example: https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/build/pdp10-kl/run From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 30 13:17:35 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:17:35 -0700 Subject: MD5 list of bitsavers files In-Reply-To: <9e59aa08-7cb4-e6ae-6eff-c3f958840db4@ntlworld.com> References: <9e59aa08-7cb4-e6ae-6eff-c3f958840db4@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 9/30/21 10:47 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > Alternatively, is the current manx database available anywhere? Richard Thompson should be maintaining it. Now that bitsavers is on a machine that I have a shell account on I need to start generating fixity information for the files there. From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Thu Sep 30 13:57:02 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:57:02 -0500 Subject: Terminal Emulator In-Reply-To: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> I am looking for a good terminal emulator.? Not for connecting to older computers serially but to connect with my embedded designs. Do any of you have any recommendations. I've been using Realterm for years but it's not very good. I used UCON, hyper term, terra term, telix (going way back) and a few I can't remember the name of. Here are my needs: 1.? Runs under Windows 10 (linux optionally) 2.? Has user selectable baud rates (I use 500K baud frequently) 3.? Can use any Windows Com Port. 4.? Can send files as raw binary 5.? Has X-modem built in (nice but optional) 6.? Has some kind of basic VT-100 support 7.? Can display both ascii characters and binary data has hex numbers, preferably on alternate lines (hex above the ascii character like this: ??? ??? 45 76 65 72 79 ???????? E??? V?? E?? R?? Y 8.? Can send short manually entered strings in hex or ascii. 9.? Can recognize protocols (based on start and/or end of text characters) 10. Costs less than $100 11.? Can Capture what comes in the port 12.? Has local echo (when connected to systems that don't echo what you type) 13.? Has a large scroll back buffer. 14.? Has programmable macro buttons or function keys. 15.? Can handle removal and insertion of the TTL to Serial USB converter without crashing. Thank you From phil at ultimate.com Thu Sep 30 14:05:12 2021 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:05:12 -0400 Subject: SIMH KL10 usage guide? Hints? and In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202109301905.18UJ5Cla052672@ultimate.com> > Also trying to figure out how to set switches as in other KA/KL sims. > I can't seem to find a means of doing that in RC's KL. https://github.com/rcornwell/sims/blob/master/PDP10/kl10_fe.c has: extern uint64 SW; /* Switch register */ .... /* Handle secondary protocol */ void dte_second(UNIT *uptr) { ... case SEC_RDSW: /* Read switch register */ M[SEC_DTSWR + base] = SW; M[SEC_DTF11 + base] = SW; break; In kx10_cpu.c uint64 SW; /* Switch register */^M .... REG cpu_reg[] = { ... { ORDATAD (SW, SW, 36, "Console SW Register"), REG_FIT}, This seems to work for me: $ ./BIN/pdp10-kl KL-10 simulator V4.0-0 Current git commit id: de400c67 sim> show Too few arguments sim> show cpu CPU idle disabled, Serial: 1025 (default) 4MW, KL10A sim> ex SW SW: 000000000000 sim> dep SW 1 sim> ex sw SW: 000000000001 From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:18:46 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:18:46 -0400 Subject: Terminal Emulator In-Reply-To: <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> References: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: I would ask Dave Mcguire (LSSM) On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 2:57 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for a good terminal emulator. Not for connecting to older > computers serially but to connect with my embedded designs. > Do any of you have any recommendations. > > I've been using Realterm for years but it's not very good. > > I used UCON, hyper term, terra term, telix (going way back) and a few I > can't remember the name of. > > Here are my needs: > > 1. Runs under Windows 10 (linux optionally) > 2. Has user selectable baud rates (I use 500K baud frequently) > 3. Can use any Windows Com Port. > 4. Can send files as raw binary > 5. Has X-modem built in (nice but optional) > 6. Has some kind of basic VT-100 support > 7. Can display both ascii characters and binary data has hex numbers, > preferably on alternate lines (hex above the ascii character like this: > 45 76 65 72 79 > E V E R Y > 8. Can send short manually entered strings in hex or ascii. > 9. Can recognize protocols (based on start and/or end of text characters) > 10. Costs less than $100 > 11. Can Capture what comes in the port > 12. Has local echo (when connected to systems that don't echo what you > type) > 13. Has a large scroll back buffer. > 14. Has programmable macro buttons or function keys. > 15. Can handle removal and insertion of the TTL to Serial USB converter > without crashing. > > Thank you > > > > > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Sep 30 15:45:22 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:45:22 -0500 Subject: Terminal Emulator In-Reply-To: <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> References: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <8862fc73-7cc9-3981-c1f9-2d54f221ff24@thereinhardts.org> I've been using a terminal emulator called ZOC. It comes in Windows and Mac flavors (I use the Mac) It seems to fit most of your criteria.? I've been using it since V6 (current is V8) for connection to many different PDP-11's, VAXen, Alphas, RasPi, device serial ports on switches, routers and storage servers. Setup can be a bit confusing at first.? The app manages config files for keyboard types (yes, keyboards are configurable - somewhat) and connection types.? I ended up creating a generic standard config for VAXen, PDP, Alpha, etc and then saving a customized version for each individual system.? They all get linked together by the connection manager. Product Page: https://www.emtec.com/zoc/index.html Features:? https://www.emtec.com/zoc/features.html It has a 30 day free trial with no limitations so you can try it and see. On 9/30/2021 1:57 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for a good terminal emulator.? Not for connecting to older computers serially but to connect with my embedded designs. > Do any of you have any recommendations. > > I've been using Realterm for years but it's not very good. > > I used UCON, hyper term, terra term, telix (going way back) and a few I can't remember the name of. > > Here are my needs: > > 1.? Runs under Windows 10 (linux optionally) ??? Yes - Windows 7, 8 , 10 and probably 11 when it comes > 2. Has user selectable baud rates (I use 500K baud frequently) ??? Yes - Baud rates from 300 to 921600 (460800 is the closest to 500k) > 3. Can use any Windows Com Port. ??? Not sure as I don't use Windows but I imagine any COM port will work > 4. Can send files as raw binary ??? Yes - Raw Binary or as ASCII > 5. Has X-modem built in (nice but optional) ??? Yes - XModem, ZModem, YMode, Kermit, SCP, Sealink (?) > 6. Has some kind of basic VT-100 support ??? Yes - VT100 or VT200 plus other Non-DEC > 7. Can display both ascii characters and binary data has hex numbers, preferably on alternate lines (hex above the ascii character like this: > ??? ??? 45 76 65 72 79 > ???????? E??? V?? E?? R?? Y ??? No...? I don't see an option for this.? But I've never seen an emulator that does.? You have one? > 8. Can send short manually entered strings in hex or ascii. ??? Doesn't appear to be able to do this.? But it might be possible with a programmed macro (yes, it has a scripting language) > 9. Can recognize protocols (based on start and/or end of text characters) ??? Might be possible with the scripting language. > 10. Costs less than $100 ??? Price is $79.99 US or ?79 for a version license.? Currently V8. When V9 comes then upgrade is $29.99 US or ?29 > 11. Can Capture what comes in the port ??? Yes - Multiple logging and screen capture options > 12. Has local echo (when connected to systems that don't echo what you type) ??? Yes - Part of terminal settings > 13. Has a large scroll back buffer. ??? Yes - user selectable to about as large as your computer can handle > 14. Has programmable macro buttons or function keys. ??? Yes - Optional Tool bar and user defined buttons > 15. Can handle removal and insertion of the TTL to Serial USB converter without crashing. ??? I don't think I have tried.? There have been a couple times when it's hung up on me but that was possibly odd output from a bum serial port. > > Thank you > > > > -- John H. Reinhardt From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 30 17:02:13 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:02:13 -0600 Subject: Terminal Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On 2021-09-30 1:18 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I would ask Dave Mcguire (LSSM) > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 2:57 PM Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > >> I am looking for a good terminal emulator. Not for connecting to older >> computers serially but to connect with my embedded designs. >> Do any of you have any recommendations. >> >> I've been using Realterm for years but it's not very good. >> >> I used UCON, hyper term, terra term, telix (going way back) and a few I >> can't remember the name of. >> >> Here are my needs: >> >> 1. Runs under Windows 10 (linux optionally) >> 2. Has user selectable baud rates (I use 500K baud frequently) >> 3. Can use any Windows Com Port. >> 4. Can send files as raw binary >> 5. Has X-modem built in (nice but optional) >> 6. Has some kind of basic VT-100 support >> 7. Can display both ascii characters and binary data has hex numbers, >> preferably on alternate lines (hex above the ascii character like this: >> 45 76 65 72 79 >> E V E R Y >> 8. Can send short manually entered strings in hex or ascii. >> 9. Can recognize protocols (based on start and/or end of text characters) >> 10. Costs less than $100 >> 11. Can Capture what comes in the port >> 12. Has local echo (when connected to systems that don't echo what you >> type) >> 13. Has a large scroll back buffer. >> 14. Has programmable macro buttons or function keys. >> 15. Can handle removal and insertion of the TTL to Serial USB converter >> without crashing. >> >> Thank you >> Why just V100 and friends? How about more of the vintage terminals of the 70's. Since we have bit mapped graphics,we can finally have over striked characters for ALGOL or APL. Ben. PS 15 USB serial and USB sticks don't work together. You need a cold reboot often to find the other device. From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Sep 30 17:32:06 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:32:06 -0600 Subject: Terminal Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:02 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-30 1:18 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I would ask Dave Mcguire (LSSM) > > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 2:57 PM Mike Katz via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> I am looking for a good terminal emulator. Not for connecting to older > >> computers serially but to connect with my embedded designs. > >> Do any of you have any recommendations. > >> > >> I've been using Realterm for years but it's not very good. > >> > >> I used UCON, hyper term, terra term, telix (going way back) and a few I > >> can't remember the name of. > >> > >> Here are my needs: > >> > >> 1. Runs under Windows 10 (linux optionally) > >> 2. Has user selectable baud rates (I use 500K baud frequently) > >> 3. Can use any Windows Com Port. > >> 4. Can send files as raw binary > >> 5. Has X-modem built in (nice but optional) > >> 6. Has some kind of basic VT-100 support > >> 7. Can display both ascii characters and binary data has hex numbers, > >> preferably on alternate lines (hex above the ascii character like this: > >> 45 76 65 72 79 > >> E V E R Y > >> 8. Can send short manually entered strings in hex or ascii. > >> 9. Can recognize protocols (based on start and/or end of text > characters) > >> 10. Costs less than $100 > >> 11. Can Capture what comes in the port > >> 12. Has local echo (when connected to systems that don't echo what you > >> type) > >> 13. Has a large scroll back buffer. > >> 14. Has programmable macro buttons or function keys. > >> 15. Can handle removal and insertion of the TTL to Serial USB converter > >> without crashing. > >> > >> Thank you > >> > Why just V100 and friends? How about > more of the vintage terminals of the 70's. > I'll point to the Sun NeWS terminal emulator that was termcap (or was it terminfo) driven... Warner > Since we have bit mapped graphics,we can finally have over striked > characters for ALGOL or APL. > Ben. > PS > 15 USB serial and USB sticks don't work together. You need a cold reboot > often to find the other device. > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 30 19:18:50 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 20:18:50 -0400 Subject: Terminal Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <3F651907-B41C-4750-90EE-AA2FD26F1C98@comcast.net> > On Sep 30, 2021, at 6:02 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-09-30 1:18 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> I would ask Dave Mcguire (LSSM) >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 2:57 PM Mike Katz via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I am looking for a good terminal emulator. Not for connecting to older >>> computers serially but to connect with my embedded designs. >>> Do any of you have any recommendations. >>> >>> I've been using Realterm for years but it's not very good. >>> >>> I used UCON, hyper term, terra term, telix (going way back) and a few I >>> can't remember the name of. >>> >>> Here are my needs: .... I like minicom, on Unix (Linux or Mac). Don't know about Windows, I avoid that like the plague. It's open source, free. >>> ... >>> 15. Can handle removal and insertion of the TTL to Serial USB converter >>> without crashing. >>> >>> Thank you >>> > ... > 15 USB serial and USB sticks don't work together. You need a cold reboot > often to find the other device. That depends on whether you have a real OS or not. I've never seen problems on Mac with USB insert/remove, including with strange USB devices I built myself. paul From leec2124 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 19:50:40 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 17:50:40 -0700 Subject: Terminal Emulator In-Reply-To: <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> References: <7w7dey54x9.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7ddc2940-404f-94c0-a222-2b3bf2f953e7@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: We use Teraterm at work - adequate, free, open-source(if that's important), meets our needs for embedded development across a wide variety of platforms. YMMV, Lee Courtney On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 11:57 AM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for a good terminal emulator. Not for connecting to older > computers serially but to connect with my embedded designs. > Do any of you have any recommendations. > > I've been using Realterm for years but it's not very good. > > I used UCON, hyper term, terra term, telix (going way back) and a few I > can't remember the name of. > > Here are my needs: > > 1. Runs under Windows 10 (linux optionally) > 2. Has user selectable baud rates (I use 500K baud frequently) > 3. Can use any Windows Com Port. > 4. Can send files as raw binary > 5. Has X-modem built in (nice but optional) > 6. Has some kind of basic VT-100 support > 7. Can display both ascii characters and binary data has hex numbers, > preferably on alternate lines (hex above the ascii character like this: > 45 76 65 72 79 > E V E R Y > 8. Can send short manually entered strings in hex or ascii. > 9. Can recognize protocols (based on start and/or end of text characters) > 10. Costs less than $100 > 11. Can Capture what comes in the port > 12. Has local echo (when connected to systems that don't echo what you > type) > 13. Has a large scroll back buffer. > 14. Has programmable macro buttons or function keys. > 15. Can handle removal and insertion of the TTL to Serial USB converter > without crashing. > > Thank you > > > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 30 21:36:04 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:36:04 -0700 Subject: Anyone out there with a working Victor 9000 (US only)? Message-ID: <3530efea-791d-8ff2-87c0-6eca755f8d95@sydex.com> Got a small batch (8) of Victor 9000 floppies, MSDOS ca. 1985. I really don't want to write a decoder for such a small batch--I've got other things on the burner right now. Anyone want to take a crack at transferring the data? (Funds available). --Chuck From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 22:02:50 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 22:02:50 -0500 Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor In-Reply-To: <319062be-f253-0ae9-1ac3-10c5b347f840@sydex.com> References: <319062be-f253-0ae9-1ac3-10c5b347f840@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/28/21 2:19 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like >> crazy. > My lovely wife still uses QEdit under a DOS emulator running on Linux. > > I occasionally still use an editor that I wrote for CP/M-80, and then > ported to MS-DOS. The advantage is that it's very small and I can > modify it at will. > > --Chuck I used see.exe early with MS-DOS, that you could record macros with.? I liked terse.com's 4K footprint.? Much later, I liked QEdit's capability to move rectangular blocks of text (composed of both rows and columns).? Then again, when I was required to work across MS-DOS, Windows and several Unix flavors, I standardized on vi or related clones.? WATCOM C for MS-DOS or Windows came with a pretty good vi.? There was also ELVIS.? And, VIM was easy to port across many OSs, including VMS (all my VMS machines have it).? For the Mac, there is TextWrangler (free version of BBEdit), with many useful capabilities (such as editing a remote file via an sftp:// URL, for example). Carlos.