From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 1 00:07:07 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 22:07:07 -0700 Subject: 8" disk drive questions... In-Reply-To: References: <004201d7ce9d$470ab3b0$d5201b10$@net> Message-ID: <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> > > I guess this is not the deluxe model? > > > https://www.computerhistory.it/images/stories/storia/supporti/8inch_pun > cher. > > jpg > > Well, that one is not the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" > Mine was just a simple plexi pocket with holes for MARKING the disk. > Then, the holes were punched with an ordinary handheld hole punch > I included a stationery store one with a clear blue plastic cover of > the > lower jaw, to avoid scratching the disk and to catch the chad. > (similar to https://www.ebay.com/itm/164142456915 ) Interesting. The article, which is in Italian, seemed to indicate this was the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig". However, I guess the picture had nothing to do with the text: "Computers that used the floppy index hole also required two additional openings in the floppy case to allow the drive to access when the disk was upside down. However, it was a difficult and risky operation for the integrity of the support. To facilitate this intervention, there were "guide masks" which allowed to accurately trace the position where the hole was to be made. These tools included the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" which was available for both 8 "and 5" 1/4 discs." -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 00:33:33 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 22:33:33 -0700 Subject: 8" disk drive questions... In-Reply-To: <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> References: <004201d7ce9d$470ab3b0$d5201b10$@net> <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> Message-ID: <29203ed4-6fad-0531-3f3a-c7bcc83b0a8a@sydex.com> On 10/31/21 10:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > "Computers that used the floppy index hole also required two additional > openings in the floppy case to allow the drive to access when the disk was > upside down. However, it was a difficult and risky operation for the > integrity of the support. To facilitate this intervention, there were "guide > masks" which allowed to accurately trace the position where the hole was to > be made. These tools included the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" which > was available for both 8 "and 5" 1/4 discs." Interesting. When I was using 8" disks early on, the only ones available were single-sided. However, several manufacturers produced "flippies' with labels on both sides. I still have several such examples in my stash. You'd think that a simple cardboard template would serve to allow users to mark additional hole locations, however. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 03:05:45 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 01:05:45 -0700 Subject: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> Yes, I have ruined a few printouts using the isopropanol method ;-) . On that subject, can anyone recommend a source for the thermal paper used in the Silent? Marc > On Oct 31, 2021, at 9:36 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 11:40 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> The THERMAL paper that I used for the Silent 700s was "white" and very >> slowly changing to yellow or brown. Didn't hold up very well to heat >> and/or sunlight. > > Another thing that ruins thermal printouts is propan-2-ol (isopropyl > alcohol). It turn the paper black as if it has been heated. > > Since I normally have a can of said solvent on my bench for cleaning > disk drive heads, connectors, etc, I have to be careful if there's a > thermal printer about. > > -tony From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 06:23:26 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:23:26 -0400 Subject: SQ703/6 conversion and a little fun Message-ID: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> A few months ago, thanks to help from several people here, I converted an SQ703 TMSCP controller to SQ706 MSCP. I had problems trying to use it on the vax due to the complexity of mapping Q-Bus registers under ODT, so put off trying until I got the LSI-11/73 going. Now I have a problem: It seems to run and recognise the controller as SQ706 according to the on-board diagnostics, however it insists saying it is at 777450, the TMSCP address.? Trying to change it gives me an out-of-bounds message. OK, I thought, I will just use it there. Put it in to a running RT11 system and it shows up at 772150 and clashes with an existing controller! It seems that one of the PALs is maybe setting up the address! Anybody else tried this? cheers, Nigel Here's the fun:? https://www(dot)bbc(dot)com/news/entertainment-arts-59089596 Maybe our vax computers will become popular once again! -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 1 10:24:27 2021 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:24:27 -0500 Subject: 8" disk drive questions... In-Reply-To: <29203ed4-6fad-0531-3f3a-c7bcc83b0a8a@sydex.com> References: <004201d7ce9d$470ab3b0$d5201b10$@net> <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> <29203ed4-6fad-0531-3f3a-c7bcc83b0a8a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7E5DA4CD23FE41DAAE98C18BB2FAFF86@Dumbbunny64> I use a few Shugart 8" single sided drives on my cp/m 2.2 machine. How do you make 'flippies'? Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 01, 2021 12:34 AM To: Ali via cctalk Subject: Re: 8" disk drive questions... On 10/31/21 10:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > "Computers that used the floppy index hole also required two additional > openings in the floppy case to allow the drive to access when the disk was > upside down. However, it was a difficult and risky operation for the > integrity of the support. To facilitate this intervention, there were "guide > masks" which allowed to accurately trace the position where the hole was to > be made. These tools included the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" which > was available for both 8 "and 5" 1/4 discs." Interesting. When I was using 8" disks early on, the only ones available were single-sided. However, several manufacturers produced "flippies' with labels on both sides. I still have several such examples in my stash. You'd think that a simple cardboard template would serve to allow users to mark additional hole locations, however. --Chuck From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Nov 1 10:38:22 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:38:22 -0500 Subject: 8" disk drive questions... In-Reply-To: <7E5DA4CD23FE41DAAE98C18BB2FAFF86@Dumbbunny64> References: <004201d7ce9d$470ab3b0$d5201b10$@net> <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> <29203ed4-6fad-0531-3f3a-c7bcc83b0a8a@sydex.com> <7E5DA4CD23FE41DAAE98C18BB2FAFF86@Dumbbunny64> Message-ID: <794afe68-9a24-0694-bb63-fc02690f399a@12bitsbest.com> I'm not as familiar with 8" drives but in the 5.25" drives there were small punches you could buy that were designed to punch an additional index hole so single sided floppies could be used as flippies. I think it was Wangco that made a single sided drive that had dual write protect and dual index sensors so that you just turn the disk over rather than punching a hole. There were also some problems spinning cheaper floppies in the "wrong" direction when they were flipped. On 11/1/2021 10:24 AM, mike via cctalk wrote: > I use a few Shugart 8" single sided drives on my cp/m 2.2 machine. How do > you make 'flippies'? > > Mike Zahorik > (414) 254-6768 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > via cctalk > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2021 12:34 AM > To: Ali via cctalk > Subject: Re: 8" disk drive questions... > > On 10/31/21 10:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> "Computers that used the floppy index hole also required two additional >> openings in the floppy case to allow the drive to access when the disk was >> upside down. However, it was a difficult and risky operation for the >> integrity of the support. To facilitate this intervention, there were > "guide >> masks" which allowed to accurately trace the position where the hole was > to >> be made. These tools included the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" which >> was available for both 8 "and 5" 1/4 discs." > Interesting. When I was using 8" disks early on, the only ones > available were single-sided. However, several manufacturers produced > "flippies' with labels on both sides. I still have several such > examples in my stash. > > You'd think that a simple cardboard template would serve to allow users > to mark additional hole locations, however. > > --Chuck > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Nov 1 10:42:50 2021 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 11:42:50 -0400 Subject: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? In-Reply-To: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> References: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> Message-ID: <022d01d7cf37$20f07760$62d16620$@verizon.net> Commodore Z (creator of the Cactus 6502 computer) seems to have a supply. He has provided me with several rolls. Bill Sudbrink -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curious Marc via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 01, 2021 4:06 AM To: Tony Duell ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? Yes, I have ruined a few printouts using the isopropanol method ;-) . On that subject, can anyone recommend a source for the thermal paper used in the Silent? Marc > On Oct 31, 2021, at 9:36 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 11:40 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> The THERMAL paper that I used for the Silent 700s was "white" and >> very slowly changing to yellow or brown. Didn't hold up very well to >> heat and/or sunlight. > > Another thing that ruins thermal printouts is propan-2-ol (isopropyl > alcohol). It turn the paper black as if it has been heated. > > Since I normally have a can of said solvent on my bench for cleaning > disk drive heads, connectors, etc, I have to be careful if there's a > thermal printer about. > > -tony -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Nov 1 11:03:02 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:03:02 -0400 Subject: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? In-Reply-To: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> References: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20211101120302.0ba2f54c@dragonsweb.org> On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 01:05:45 -0700 Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I have ruined a few printouts using the isopropanol method ;-) . > On that subject, can anyone recommend a source for the thermal paper > used in the Silent? Marc > I found this link: https://www.adorablesupply.com/items/marine~navtex-recording-rolls/texas-instrument-thermal-printer-rolls-fax-ti-sln700-1-copy-1-detail.htm Old school TI vendors and repair services like https://www.omnidatasys.net/ or https://www.fastprinters.com/ might be able to refer you to a supplier if they don't still have the paper. If you measure the guide pins or the inner ID if you have a roll, if it's 1/2 inch, fax printer or Brother PocketJet rolls might work in a pinch. TI part numbers for the 100' roll is 0972603-0001, non-perforated, 0999415-0001 perforated. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 12:10:56 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:10:56 -0700 Subject: 8" disk drive questions... In-Reply-To: <7E5DA4CD23FE41DAAE98C18BB2FAFF86@Dumbbunny64> References: <004201d7ce9d$470ab3b0$d5201b10$@net> <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> <29203ed4-6fad-0531-3f3a-c7bcc83b0a8a@sydex.com> <7E5DA4CD23FE41DAAE98C18BB2FAFF86@Dumbbunny64> Message-ID: <18598443-e56c-c2f4-e90c-e6cc49c99739@sydex.com> On 11/1/21 8:24 AM, mike wrote: > I use a few Shugart 8" single sided drives on my cp/m 2.2 machine. How do > you make 'flippies'? > > Mike Zahorik Simple enough--Get yourself a hand punch like this one: https://www.swingline.com/c/punches/?rslt=34 Using an old floppy jacket (sans cookie), place it over the floppy you want to convert to a flippie. but invert it. Mark where the index aperture is on the disk to be converted. Do the same for the reverse side of the disk. Slip your punch between the jacket and cookie (using a piece of paper on the cookie to prevent damage, and punch the marked holes out on both sides. You'll wind up with a disk that has 2 index apertures in the jacket. You can now insert the disk, inverted in your single sided drive and use the other side. I'm a bit surprised that google doesn't turn up images of such floppies. I'll have to get a photo of one and post it somewhere. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Nov 1 12:40:32 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:40:32 -0700 Subject: SQ703/6 conversion and a little fun In-Reply-To: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> References: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A5117C-D074-4588-9833-CAFE81938C2A@avanthar.com> Who made the SQ703/SQ706? Is this a rebadge Viking board? If so then it?s the PAL. I think that the OED needs to improve their definition of VAX. Zane > On Nov 1, 2021, at 4:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > A few months ago, thanks to help from several people here, I converted > an SQ703 TMSCP controller to SQ706 MSCP. > > I had problems trying to use it on the vax due to the complexity of > mapping Q-Bus registers under ODT, so put off trying until I got the > LSI-11/73 going. > > Now I have a problem: It seems to run and recognise the controller as > SQ706 according to the on-board diagnostics, however it insists saying > it is at 777450, the TMSCP address. Trying to change it gives me an > out-of-bounds message. > > OK, I thought, I will just use it there. > > Put it in to a running RT11 system and it shows up at 772150 and clashes > with an existing controller! > > It seems that one of the PALs is maybe setting up the address! > > Anybody else tried this? > > cheers, > > Nigel > > Here's the fun: > https://www(dot)bbc(dot)com/news/entertainment-arts-59089596 > > Maybe our vax computers will become popular once again! > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 14:11:01 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:11:01 +0100 Subject: Terminal Emulator for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 at 22:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Juicessh ap for android has telnet. I use it for my vax boxes. Seconded. I almost never use SSH from Android, but JuiceSSH is my go-to for the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 15:33:41 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 15:33:41 -0500 Subject: Old Apple II game manuals and the Internet Archive References: Message-ID: While clear out storage spaces I have come across binders of photocopies of lots of old Apple II game manuals. I've checked online for those that have been scanned already and will toss those. Before I toss the rest which I haven't found online, I'd like to scan them and upload to the Internet Archive to save them. Most of these are one page with a few 2-4 pages. What I'm wondering about is the best way to upload them after scanning. Do each individually, which adds a lot of entries to my small upload page (which I suppose isn't a big deal) or zip them up and upload the one file and make sure the metadata is properly set to identify each manual in the zip. Or some other method? Suggestions? Thanks, David Williams www.trailingedge.com (http://www.trailingedge.com) From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 16:05:08 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:05:08 -0500 Subject: Applesauce FDC References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> Message-ID: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> I've recently picked up a new Applesauce floppy disk controller and have been playing with attaching various different drive types and imaging different Apple II, Atari, TI and other floppy disks with it. So far I've mostly imaged unprotected disks and run them in various emulators just fine. I've since added a sync sensor to one of my older Disk II drives and started to make some flux images of protected disks. These too seem to run fine in the emulators I've tried. The documentation on the device is limited at the moment, particularly the software, and while it is slowly being updated I was wondering if anyone else here had any experience with the setup. Any hints, suggestions, best practices, "do this to get the best copy", etc, to pass along would be appreciated. For example I read you can try to recover borderline disks by having it do multiple passes of the bad sectors. I see how this is done on the Fast Image option and has helped a couple of times but don't see any way to do something similar via the Flux Image option. Does it not work/matter with those? Also I see sometimes it reports a file as bad if I do one image type but if I do the other it comes back as okay. So I tend to play with both when I can. There is a lot of options and functions in the Flux Image option that I just really don't know how it works or what to do with it so far that any info would be great. I know it can image non-Apple II disks as well and I've done a few. It works great on Apple II protected disks but wonder how to deal with protected disks from other systems? Or is that more an issue of other emulators and such not having something like the .woz format being used with the Apple II? I bought this for my Apple II collection and it was a nice surprise to learn it could work with other systems too, just looking for more info about them as well. So far I really love the device and it has been worth the long wait for new units to come back into production again. Especially as it is a new design that allows for attaching PC floppy drives now as well. I've noticed the doc on the site being updated, just hope that they can find time to update more, particularly in regards to the client software. Best, David Williams www.trailingedge.com (http://www.trailingedge.com) From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Nov 1 16:18:54 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:18:54 -0400 Subject: Terminal Emulator for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/1/2021 3:11 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 at 22:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >> Juicessh ap for android has telnet. I use it for my vax boxes. > Seconded. I almost never use SSH from Android, but JuiceSSH is my > go-to for the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion. > I'm going to go with Juicessh then, sounds just what I need. Thanks. Having juicessh on my tablet will let me login to my machines on my home network while I lay in bed.? You know, when you get that burning desire to test something out just before you go to sleep. Doug From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 16:25:07 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:25:07 -0400 Subject: SQ703/6 conversion and a little fun Message-ID: <9351f1a7-4be3-ca61-1433-cef3caaa4263@gmail.com> A few months ago, thanks to help from several people here, I converted an SQ703 TMSCP controller to SQ706 MSCP. I had problems trying to use it on the vax due to the complexity of mapping Q-Bus registers under ODT, so put off trying until I got the LSI-11/73 going. Now I have a problem: It seems to run and recognise the controller as SQ706 according to the on-board diagnostics, however it insists saying it is at 777450, the TMSCP address.? Trying to change it gives me an out-of-bounds message. OK, I thought, I will just use it there. Put it in to a running RT11 system and it shows up at 772150 and clashes with an existing controller! It seems that one of the PALs is maybe setting up the address! Anybody else tried this? cheers, Nigel Here's the fun:? https://www(dot)bbc(dot)com/news/entertainment-arts-59089596 Maybe our vax computers will become popular once again! -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From hagstrom at bu.edu Mon Nov 1 16:35:45 2021 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 21:35:45 +0000 Subject: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> Message-ID: <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> There's a new Discord server that John started up for discussion and Q&A about the device and software, that might be the best place for quick answers. The Discord invite is: https://discord.gg/YrQKdwNhdR (The link is also available in the upper right corner of https://applesaucefdc.com ) There is a Slack channel in the apple2infinitum workspace where a lot of the same sort of discussion had been taking place before, but now that there are more platforms represented, John's expanded out to Discord as well so it's not embedded in an Apple-II-centered Slack workspace. As far as I know, you are are correct that there is no way to re-read only tracks that return non-green from the flux imager. I'm not sure if that's on the list of things to do or whether there might be a conceptual reason why that's not included in the flux imager. I think it reads a bunch of revolutions while it is sitting on the track, but one aspect of the "retry" feature of the fast disk imager that is nice is that you can take the disk out, clean the head and/or the media, and then put it back in and retry just the failing spots -- the several reads that the flux imager does are all on the same "visit" and don't let you leave, clean, and then return. It seems to me like that would be a nice feature to have in the flux imager too -- but unless it is very well hidden, I do not think it's there. My understanding of the situation with protected disks from non-Apple-II platforms is that there haven't been a lot of people to test these out yet, so it's in its early stages but the more people try things and report what works and doesn't, the better it'll get. The software is under very active development, with new builds coming out sometimes daily. It's fairly mature now for Apple II disks, a lot of people have been using it a lot, but the other platform support (and PC drive connection) is quite new. -Paul > On Nov 1, 2021, at 5:05 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > I've recently picked up a new Applesauce floppy disk controller and have been playing with attaching various different drive types and imaging different Apple II, Atari, TI and other floppy disks with it. So far I've mostly imaged unprotected disks and run them in various emulators just fine. I've since added a sync sensor to one of my older Disk II drives and started to make some flux images of protected disks. These too seem to run fine in the emulators I've tried. The documentation on the device is limited at the moment, particularly the software, and while it is slowly being updated I was wondering if anyone else here had any experience with the setup. Any hints, suggestions, best practices, "do this to get the best copy", etc, to pass along would be appreciated. For example I read you can try to recover borderline disks by having it do multiple passes of the bad sectors. I see how this is done on the Fast Image option and has helped a couple of times but don't see any way to do > > something similar via the Flux Image option. Does it not work/matter with those? Also I see sometimes it reports a file as bad if I do one image type but if I do the other it comes back as okay. So I tend to play with both when I can. There is a lot of options and functions in the Flux Image option that I just really don't know how it works or what to do with it so far that any info would be great. I know it can image non-Apple II disks as well and I've done a few. It works great on Apple II protected disks but wonder how to deal with protected disks from other systems? Or is that more an issue of other emulators and such not having something like the .woz format being used with the Apple II? I bought this for my Apple II collection and it was a nice surprise to learn it could work with other systems too, just looking for more info about them as well. So far I really love the device and it has been worth the long wait for new units to come back into production again. Especially as it > > is a new design that allows for attaching PC floppy drives now as well. I've noticed the doc on the site being updated, just hope that they can find time to update more, particularly in regards to the client software. Best, David Williams www.trailingedge.com (http://www.trailingedge.com) From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 16:56:23 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:56:23 -0500 Subject: Old Apple II game manuals and the Internet Archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-11-01 16:31, Michael Mulhern wrote: > > > David, simple solution is to scan (to 600dpi tiff) the pages, and zip them and then change the *.zip to *.cbz (Comic Book Zip) and upload. You could add a simple cover page listing the titles. > > I've scanned a bunch (600dpi tiff) already and have also made PDFs of them so have both saved already. It wasn't a very long process. > > > > > The Book-op process on the IA will produce the downloadable PDF and online display page/images. > > > > I'd also be happy to also copy the zip/cbz you create and reload as individual metadata for each of the titles. > > > > I'm good with uploading each individually, just trying to see which is the preferred method. Individual or one big "searchable" zip. I have a lot of other similar photocopies of other doc as well that I'm looking to do besides all the game manuals. I WILL get the storage space all cleared out and my collection organized... I will... :) Best, David Williams www.trailingedge.com From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 17:13:36 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:13:36 -0500 Subject: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> Message-ID: On 2021-11-01 16:35, Hagstrom, Paul wrote: > > There's a new Discord server that John started up for discussion and Q&A about the device and software, that might be the best place for quick answers The Discord invite is: > > https://discord.gg/YrQKdwNhdR > > (The link is also available in the upper right corner of https://applesaucefdc.com ) Ah never checked in the Contact section of the site so didn't see the discord. Guess it is time to learn about this new fangled discord thingy, seems like a new version of IRC... :) > > > As far as I know, you are are correct that there is no way to re-read only tracks that return non-green from the flux imager. I'm not sure if that's on the list of things to do or whether there might be a conceptual reason why that's not included in the flux imager. I think it reads a bunch of revolutions while it is sitting on the track, but one aspect of the "retry" feature of the fast disk imager that is nice is that you can take the disk ou t, clean the head and/or the media, and then put it back in and retry just the failing spots -- the several reads that the flux imager does are all on the same "visit" and don't let you leave, clean, and then return. It seems to me like that would be a nice feature to have in the flux imager too -- but unless it is very well hidden, I do not think it's there. Yeah I've found a few times where even just opening the drive door, re-inserting the disk and having it try just the bad sectors again made a difference. That is something I really liked and was looking for in the flux image settings. Then there are all the various options in the disk analyzer that I'm at a loss to see how to really use and have so far just ignored with no issues. > > > My understanding of the situation with protected disks from non-Apple-II platforms is that there haven't been a lot of people to test these out yet, so it's in its early stages but the more people try things and report what works and doesn't, the better it'll get. The software is under very active development, with new builds coming out sometimes daily. It's fairly mature now for Apple II disks, a lot of people have been using it a lot, but the other platform support (and PC drive connection) is quite new. Well the non-Apple II platform support was a surprise bonus for me when I received mine as I was mostly looking to deal with my Apple II collection. But I do have a lot of Atari disks as well as other platforms listed as working with the device so am now very interested in those. I've imaged a few others but not sure what is really protected and what isn't there. Most have worked just fine but a couple have had issues which I assumed is due to copy protection but I've just been using the fast image option as I didn't yet have a drive that could flux the 40 tracks of the Atari disks. Especially when the backs of some of the discs were used. Maybe if I could tell it to only flux one side of the disk instead of trying both as I am using a PC drive at the moment to image the Atari discs and those don't do flippy disks very well. Best, David Williams www.trailingedge.com From lists at glitchwrks.com Mon Nov 1 18:19:17 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 23:19:17 +0000 Subject: Mystery 1702A(?) EPROM Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <13E64B6A-F7E6-4A54-AD20-847A2D2A52E0.ref@yahoo.com> <13E64B6A-F7E6-4A54-AD20-847A2D2A52E0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1uh2FifXCeLY4CBapiHKnSz-Q4AhGvB449k9di44U_dQ-lDPfSrdAbw-DxH-TqWsb13RRibc6ZojAau7lnfRll9Q9bhI8Iluyd5Q4zKnBQE=@glitchwrks.com> Reformed the big capacitors, tested the power supply, replaced all electrolytics on the control board (two were leaking) with hermetically sealed axial tantalums, and powered up on the variac today. Seems to be largely working at least for reads! Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, October 31st, 2021 at 16:43, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > There's a "Model 20..." on the silkscreen, but as luck would have it, the roll-over standoff in the middle of the board goes through the rest of the number! > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Sunday, October 31st, 2021 at 09:03, Mike Douglas via cctalk cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > It might be the Mikra-D MD-2040 1702 programmer. Similar to the MD-2044 on my website but a parallel data interface (e.g., manual switches and lights) instead of a serial RS-232 interface. The 2040 is briefly mentioned in the .pdf file here: https://deramp.com/downloads/eprom_p...kra-d/md-2044/ > > > > Mike From abs at absd.org Mon Nov 1 18:21:23 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 23:21:23 +0000 Subject: Terminal Emulator for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, 20:37 Chuck Guzis via cctalk, wrote: > > On 10/31/21 1:06 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I would like to use my tablet, Samsung Tab E model SM-T560NU, to connect > > to my VAX and Linux computers. There seem to be a large number of > > 'Apps' out there. What is a good one to use? > > > > The VAX doesn't have SSH only insecure TELNET. Another can of worms, > > SSH on the Vax? > > You might do what I do--isolate your vintage/old machines on their own > sub-net with no connection to the outside. It's not as if you'll do web > browsing on the VAX, after all. Was always a fan of links for web browsing on my VAXstation 90, I think I never got anything bigger than dillo or netsurf to run natively. Of course it also made a workable X display for Firefox from a bigger machine :-p. (this was not under VMS tho') As others have said JuiceSSH supports telnet which should be fine for VMS and ssh or even mosh for Linux or other 'nixes From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 19:25:28 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:25:28 -0700 Subject: 8" disk drive questions... In-Reply-To: <19AD343DEEFE4C0EB84286A51E4849CE@Dumbbunny64> References: <004201d7ce9d$470ab3b0$d5201b10$@net> <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> <29203ed4-6fad-0531-3f3a-c7bcc83b0a8a@sydex.com> <7E5DA4CD23FE41DAAE98C18BB2FAFF86@Dumbbunny64> <19AD343DEEFE4C0EB84286A51E4849CE@Dumbbunny64> Message-ID: Just as a follow up, I grabbed one of the Memorex "flippies" out of my files: https://i.imgur.com/3VnrazS.jpg --Chuck From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 20:09:25 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 21:09:25 -0400 Subject: SQ703/6 conversion and a little fun In-Reply-To: <46A5117C-D074-4588-9833-CAFE81938C2A@avanthar.com> References: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> <46A5117C-D074-4588-9833-CAFE81938C2A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <4bd00a08-1522-197f-46ed-7f732a94f0bb@gmail.com> No, Zane, it is made by Dilog. I heard that the device can do both tape and disk, but that to save money on DEC's royalty payments they only put the proms in for what you bought - which is not a problem since I got two of them! I figure if you can't beat it, go with the flow!? I am going to move the Plessey DCV54 to 160340 and let the SQ706 play at 172150, even though its diagnostic says its at 174500! The reason I know it is coming up at 172150 is that the DCV54 diagnostic says there is a non-DCV54 controller there, only when the SQ703(6) is plugged in. Unfortunately? there are other jobs I have to do first, including fixing a very noisy power contactor in a DEC power controller that is upsetting the wife, and the microvax seems to have a ground? loop voltage that is preventing me from entering anything on the console channel since I installed the power converter! Cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-11-01 1:40 p.m., Zane Healy wrote: > Who made the SQ703/SQ706? Is this a rebadge Viking board? If so then it?s the PAL. > > I think that the OED needs to improve their definition of VAX. > > Zane > > > > >> On Nov 1, 2021, at 4:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> >> A few months ago, thanks to help from several people here, I converted >> an SQ703 TMSCP controller to SQ706 MSCP. >> >> I had problems trying to use it on the vax due to the complexity of >> mapping Q-Bus registers under ODT, so put off trying until I got the >> LSI-11/73 going. >> >> Now I have a problem: It seems to run and recognise the controller as >> SQ706 according to the on-board diagnostics, however it insists saying >> it is at 777450, the TMSCP address. Trying to change it gives me an >> out-of-bounds message. >> >> OK, I thought, I will just use it there. >> >> Put it in to a running RT11 system and it shows up at 772150 and clashes >> with an existing controller! >> >> It seems that one of the PALs is maybe setting up the address! >> >> Anybody else tried this? >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> Here's the fun: >> https://www(dot)bbc(dot)com/news/entertainment-arts-59089596 >> >> Maybe our vax computers will become popular once again! >> >> -- >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 23:04:59 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 21:04:59 -0700 Subject: SQ703/6 conversion and a little fun In-Reply-To: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> References: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 4:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > > A few months ago, thanks to help from several people here, I converted > an SQ703 TMSCP controller to SQ706 MSCP. > > ...... > > It seems that one of the PALs is maybe setting up the address! > > Anybody else tried this? I never tried it with a Dilog SQ703 and SQ706. The two that I have have numerous differences between the boards, which made me skeptical that just a simple EPROM swap would be the only change necessary. However with the newer S-handle versions of the Dilog TMSCP SQ3703A and MSCP SQ3706A boards that I have, they appear identical except for the EPROMs. On those I did try swapping the EPROMs between the two boards and that did appear to completely swap them between TMSCP and MSCP functionality. From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:31:42 2021 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 08:31:42 +1100 Subject: Old Apple II game manuals and the Internet Archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, simple solution is to scan (to 600dpi tiff) the pages, and zip them and then change the *.zip to *.cbz (Comic Book Zip) and upload. You could add a simple cover page listing the titles. The Book-op process on the IA will produce the downloadable PDF and online display page/images. I'd also be happy to also copy the zip/cbz you create and reload as individual metadata for each of the titles. Cheers, Michael *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 at 07:33, David Williams via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > While clear out storage spaces I have come across binders of photocopies > of lots of old Apple II game manuals. I've checked online for those that > have been scanned already and will toss those. Before I toss the rest which > I haven't found online, I'd like to scan them and upload to the Internet > Archive to save them. Most of these are one page with a few 2-4 pages. What > I'm wondering about is the best way to upload them after scanning. Do each > individually, which adds a lot of entries to my small upload page (which I > suppose isn't a big deal) or zip them up and upload the one file and make > sure the metadata is properly set to identify each manual in the zip. Or > some other method? Suggestions? Thanks, David Williams > www.trailingedge.com (http://www.trailingedge.com) > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 2 04:42:13 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 10:42:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: SerialDisk (Re: LINCtape images) In-Reply-To: References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > There seem to be a couple of formats that were frequently used, and a third > lesser used format. One of the issues is that you have to go into > maintenance mode, as far as I can tell, to determine the size of the block > you just read into memory. It seems so. But I would need just a restore version of the program, capable of formatting the tape first. I'm wondering if I am the first who wants to create LINCtapes from an image. There is a mention of using SerialDisk with the PDP-12 (a modified version by cjl), but I can't locate it :-( Christian From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 05:32:26 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:32:26 -0400 Subject: SQ703/6 conversion and a little fun In-Reply-To: References: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b7f5330-eef6-860d-9b81-1d114e85198f@gmail.com> Thanks, you have given me hope. While the model # stickers have worn off, there is a serial number that seems to be like 703AQ1570, and the board has a revision K. I'll report back when I have gone through all the gyrations to test it on the LSI-11 cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-11-02 12:04 a.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 4:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk > wrote: >> A few months ago, thanks to help from several people here, I converted >> an SQ703 TMSCP controller to SQ706 MSCP. >> >> ...... >> >> It seems that one of the PALs is maybe setting up the address! >> >> Anybody else tried this? > I never tried it with a Dilog SQ703 and SQ706. The two that I have > have numerous differences between the boards, which made me skeptical > that just a simple EPROM swap would be the only change necessary. > > However with the newer S-handle versions of the Dilog TMSCP SQ3703A > and MSCP SQ3706A boards that I have, they appear identical except for > the EPROMs. On those I did try swapping the EPROMs between the two > boards and that did appear to completely swap them between TMSCP and > MSCP functionality. From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 08:32:46 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:32:46 -0700 Subject: SerialDisk (Re: LINCtape images) In-Reply-To: References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <1f5b1c4b-a52a-ee0d-7a84-6945de350a62@gmail.com> On 11/2/2021 2:42 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> There seem to be a couple of formats that were frequently used, and a >> third lesser used format.? One of the issues is that you have to go >> into maintenance mode, as far as I can tell, to determine the size of >> the block you just read into memory. > > It seems so. > But I would need just a restore version of the program, capable of > formatting the tape first. > I'm wondering if I am the first who wants to create LINCtapes from an > image. There is a mention of using SerialDisk with the PDP-12 (a > modified version by cjl), but I can't locate it :-( Another option would be to spin the data onto LINCtape with a TD8E, then mount the result on the PDP-12. I think Dave is creating the images in the first place with either a TD8E, or possibly a custom controller. I folded in the SerialDisk changes from Bob and from CJL back in January, as well as the new boot loader from Doug and various other fixes in February, including support for systems without the KIE instruction. Kyle approved and merged my pull requests, so that should all be there for you at Kyle's github: https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver The current version should have no problems with the 8/I or with the PDP-12. (Maybe even the straight-8, but I can't remember checking if it is "increment and rotate" clean. Doug might know.) Vince From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 2 08:55:28 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" disk drive questions... In-Reply-To: References: <004201d7ce9d$470ab3b0$d5201b10$@net> <007f01d7cede$525bf9e0$f713eda0$@net> <29203ed4-6fad-0531-3f3a-c7bcc83b0a8a@sydex.com> <7E5DA4CD23FE41DAAE98C18BB2FAFF86@Dumbbunny64> <19AD343DEEFE4C0EB84286A51E4849CE@Dumbbunny64> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Just as a follow up, I grabbed one of the Memorex "flippies" out of my > files: > > https://i.imgur.com/3VnrazS.jpg > That's really neat. Thanks for the photo! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 2 09:12:05 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:12:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: SerialDisk (Re: LINCtape images) In-Reply-To: <1f5b1c4b-a52a-ee0d-7a84-6945de350a62@gmail.com> References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <1f5b1c4b-a52a-ee0d-7a84-6945de350a62@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Another option would be to spin the data onto LINCtape with a TD8E, then > mount the result on the PDP-12. I think Dave is creating the images in the > first place with either a TD8E, or possibly a custom controller. I think he used a custom controller. I have several TD8E controllers, but the TU56s are wired for the TC08, and one unit for the TC11. > https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver > > The current version should have no problems with the 8/I or with the PDP-12. > (Maybe even the straight-8, but I can't remember checking if it is "increment > and rotate" clean. Doug might know.) Thanks. I've seen this, but the doc/comments apparently don't reflect the changes and modifications so I was thinking that this is the unpatched version. Christian From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Nov 2 09:26:06 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:26:06 -0700 Subject: SQ703/6 conversion and a little fun In-Reply-To: <4bd00a08-1522-197f-46ed-7f732a94f0bb@gmail.com> References: <562e5321-25c7-c3da-a545-db3780f7744a@gmail.com> <46A5117C-D074-4588-9833-CAFE81938C2A@avanthar.com> <4bd00a08-1522-197f-46ed-7f732a94f0bb@gmail.com> Message-ID: I should have realized that it was Dilog. Interesting, I wasn?t aware that was due to Royalty payments that you had to choose between Tape, Disk, or Disk/Tape. That makes perfect sense. I can?t speak for Dilog, my experience is with the Viking boards (I forget how many names they were sold under). With the Viking (Unibus and Q-Bus), you need the correct PAL, the correct EPROM, and you need the correct cab-kit that lets you log into the controller and flip a couple bits. I need to work on a power-supply or two for my PDP-11?s. I don?t really feel like letting the magic smoke out on my BA23 or BA123. Zane > On Nov 1, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: > > No, Zane, it is made by Dilog. I heard that the device can do both tape and disk, but that to save money on DEC's royalty payments they only put the proms in for what you bought - which is not a problem since I got two of them! > > I figure if you can't beat it, go with the flow! I am going to move the Plessey DCV54 to 160340 and let the SQ706 play at 172150, even though its diagnostic says its at 174500! The reason I know it is coming up at 172150 is that the DCV54 diagnostic says there is a non-DCV54 controller there, only when the SQ703(6) is plugged in. > > Unfortunately there are other jobs I have to do first, including fixing a very noisy power contactor in a DEC power controller that is upsetting the wife, and the microvax seems to have a ground loop voltage that is preventing me from entering anything on the console channel since I installed the power converter! > > Cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2021-11-01 1:40 p.m., Zane Healy wrote: >> Who made the SQ703/SQ706? Is this a rebadge Viking board? If so then it?s the PAL. >> >> I think that the OED needs to improve their definition of VAX. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> >>> On Nov 1, 2021, at 4:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> A few months ago, thanks to help from several people here, I converted >>> an SQ703 TMSCP controller to SQ706 MSCP. >>> >>> I had problems trying to use it on the vax due to the complexity of >>> mapping Q-Bus registers under ODT, so put off trying until I got the >>> LSI-11/73 going. >>> >>> Now I have a problem: It seems to run and recognise the controller as >>> SQ706 according to the on-board diagnostics, however it insists saying >>> it is at 777450, the TMSCP address. Trying to change it gives me an >>> out-of-bounds message. >>> >>> OK, I thought, I will just use it there. >>> >>> Put it in to a running RT11 system and it shows up at 772150 and clashes >>> with an existing controller! >>> >>> It seems that one of the PALs is maybe setting up the address! >>> >>> Anybody else tried this? >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Nigel >>> >>> Here's the fun: >>> https://www(dot)bbc(dot)com/news/entertainment-arts-59089596 >>> >>> Maybe our vax computers will become popular once again! >>> >>> -- >>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>> Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >>> >>> >>> From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 10:06:44 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 08:06:44 -0700 Subject: SerialDisk (Re: LINCtape images) In-Reply-To: References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <1f5b1c4b-a52a-ee0d-7a84-6945de350a62@gmail.com> Message-ID: <451bca9c-898f-db40-ab04-8629dafbe867@gmail.com> On 11/2/2021 7:12 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver >> >> The current version should have no problems with the 8/I or with the >> PDP-12. (Maybe even the straight-8, but I can't remember checking if >> it is "increment and rotate" clean.? Doug might know.) > > Thanks. I've seen this, but the doc/comments apparently don't reflect > the changes and modifications so I was thinking that this is the > unpatched version. The edit history in the handlers/*.pal reflect the driver changes, and there's also a pile of useful changes to the installer, etc. The github per-file check-in comments aren't always that helpful. The "history" button in the upper right gives perhaps the best synopsis of the changes on a "per commit" level. If "RES/E" doesn't report version "I", you aren't running the latest. (Kyle's code was through "E", Bob's code was "F", CJL's code was "G" and "H", and my KIE fix is "I".) I also have lying around somewhere a bootable SerialDisk image I made with LINCtape drivers, which I hope to actually run on my -12 someday. CJL had some ideas about a SerialDisk for PQS?8 and other non-OS/8 operating systems, but I haven't seen any code for that. (I also disagree with his ideas about the need to switch to 128-word blocks.) Vince From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 14:13:59 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:13:59 +0000 Subject: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> Message-ID: The trickiest protection I've seen is where there is a hole punched through the disk on one track. The idea is that the protected program writes to that track and expects to see a failure to read that track. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 14:58:27 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:58:27 -0700 Subject: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> Message-ID: <89b87c11-5cd1-bdd7-c8f6-a59b227064fa@sydex.com> On 11/2/21 12:13 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > The trickiest protection I've seen is where there is a hole punched > through the disk on one track. The idea is that the protected program > writes to that track and expects to see a failure to read that > track. There were more floppy protection schemes than you could shake a stick at: https://diskpreservation.com/dp.php?pg=protection The Apple II ones were interestingly devious, particularly the "spiral track" one. At any rate, lots of stories there, both in creation and defeating. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 2 15:35:10 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Prolok Saga (Was: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > The trickiest protection I've seen is where there is a hole punched > through the disk on one track. The idea is that the protected program > writes to that track and expects to see a failure to read that track. It doesn'tneed to be a hole all the way through, merely any physical defect that renders that spot unusable. The "Physical Defect" protection. Copy protected disks had already been made with flawed content to produce an error on READ, and were easily circumvented by the "duplicate" copy having flawed content. The next step was to have a physical defect, so that the protection software would WRITE to the bad track, and confirm that the track really was damaged. So, they would scratch the disk. In the case of Prolok, the check to confirm a physical defect consisted of writing all zeroes to that area; verifying all zeroes; writing all ones; and verifying all ones. Vault Corporation produced "Prolok" with a physical defect. To make it MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE to investors and clients, instead of a roomful of people scratching disks with paperclips, they used a "laser fingerprint" (use a laser, instead of a paperclip). Since they gave the same or similar subroutines, that checked for the defect, to every client, it was cracked with software that would locate that subroutine, and replace the subroutine call with NOPs or gut the innards of the subroutine. The cracks were often posted on Compuserve. (Vault sued Quaid software for "CopyWrite"/"RAMKEY") https://casetext.com/case/vault-corp-v-quaid-software-ltd ) For "cloning" (pirating copies, often with the Central Point Option board (flux hardware)), software was developed that would identify the location of the defect, the cloner would then attempt to scratch the disk at that location, and then the software would locate the defect and juggle stuff around to put the content in the right place(s) relative to the defect. But, Vault Corporation wasn't satisfied until they shot themselves in the foot with very high caliber rounds. They announced "Prlok PLUS". W. Krag Brotby (chairman of Vault) said that it would, if it detected a "fake" copy, wipe out the user's hard disk! Even at the announcement of Prolok PLUS, the computer marketing community was aghast and enraged. It doesn't take much to realize the PR nightmare, and the legal liabilities for damaging a customer computer, even if it was NOT a false positive! Ashton-Tate, the largest Prolok client for dBase III, and part owner of Vault, immediately cancelled their contracts. And announced that they had done so, that they had never used Prolok Plus, never would, and no longer used Vault Corporation products. Almost all of Vault's other clients follwed suit. Prolok Plus never made it to market! 'Course the "word was out". Few people realize that it was NEVER actually put to use. In fact some of the more idiotic newspaper "solve your computer problems" columnists, when stumped, would actually speculate "maybe your computer was attacked by an out of control copy-protection program." So, we ended up with a mythical monster, and the creator of that mythical monster was vanquished. If anybody can document an actual existence of Prolok Plus, I would like to hear about it. There is little mention of it on the web, but: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/08/06/09/1927205/a-history-of-copy-protection "Re:Ahhh, holes burned in disks (Score:5, Informative)" https://books.google.com/books?id=9y4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=prolok+plus+copy+protection+vault+corporation&source=bl&ots=9Y7SBcnFx9&sig=ACfU3U3JDSEI-QjLjMi1V_gWdPq8gaHrHg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjijpjCufrzAhX2TDABHXh2DBgQ6AF6BAgHEAM#v=onepage&q=prolok%20plus%20copy%20protection%20vault%20corporation&f=false https://www.pcjs.org/blog/2019/05/05/ Kryoflux display of Prolok -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 2 16:25:47 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:25:47 -0500 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On 10/29/2021 7:22 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Short question: > How do I transfer LINCtape images back to tape on a PDP-12? Ideally > there is some binary program to load via papertape to format a tape and > recreate it with data transfer over the console serial line. > > Christian Here is a program I wrote for reading/writing tape images via XModem protocol for my PDP-12, and another for comparing two linctapes. JRJ 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 01 LN=0001 0001 [ PROGRAM TO SEND A 0002 [ TAPE ON UNIT 1 TO 0003 [ A PC VIA XMODEM 0004 [ 0005 [ CONSTANTS 0006 [ 0007 XSOH=1 0010 XNAK=25 0011 XCAN=30 0012 XACK=6 0013 XEOT=4 0014 SRTAPE=1 [ SR11 1 FOR OS/12 TAPE 0015 SRCMP=2 [ SR10 1 FOR COMPARE 0016 SRWRIT=4 [ SR9 1 FOR WRITE 0017 [ 0020 [ SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS 0021 [ 0022 AXO=1 0023 PDP=2 0024 TMA=23 0025 RDC=700 0026 WDE=706 0027 DKSF=6401 0030 DKCC=6402 0031 DKRB=6406 0032 DTLS=6416 0033 DTSF=6411 0034 [ 0035 [ DATA 0036 [ 0037 $70 0040 0070 0000 #XMPTR 0 [ PTR INTO XMBUF 0041 0071 0000 #XMBLK 0 [ XMODEM BLOCK # 0042 0072 0000 #XMCKSM 0 [ XMODEM CHECKSUM 0043 0073 0000 #XMCNT 0 [ WORK COUNTER 0044 0074 0000 #XMACK 0 [ ACKNOWLEDGEMENT CHAR 0045 0075 0000 #ROTCNT 0 [ WORK COUNTER FOR RAR 0046 0076 0000 #WDCNTI 0 [ WORDS PER BLOCK 0047 0077 0000 #BLKCNT 0 [ BLOCKS PER TAPE 0050 0100 0000 #WDCNT 0 [ WORK COUNTER 0051 0101 0000 #HNKCNT 0 [ WORK COUNTER 0052 0102 0000 #HNKMEM 0 [ ADDRESS OF BLOCK 0053 0103 0000 #XMWORD 0 [ XMODEM INCOMING WORD 0054 0104 0000 #XMPROT 0 [ XMODEM PROTOCOL CHAR 0055 [ 0056 [ INITIALIZATION 0057 [ 0060 $200 0061 0200 7402 #START HLT 0062 0201 7301 CLA CLL IAC [ XMODEM BLOCK=1 0063 0202 3071 0071 DCA XMBLK 0064 0203 1177 1155 TAD (XMBUF [ XMPTR = ADDR(XMBUF) 0065 0204 3070 0070 DCA XMPTR 0066 0205 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. [ XMCNT = -128 0067 0206 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 02 LN=0070 0070 0207 7404 OSR [ IF SR11 == 0 THEN 0071 0210 0175 0001 AND (SRTAPE 0072 0211 7440 SZA 0073 0212 5220 0220 JMP INITP 0074 0213 1174 7400 TAD (0-256. [ WDCNTI= -256. 0075 0214 3076 0076 DCA WDCNTI 0076 0215 1173 7000 TAD (0-1000 [ BLKCNT = -01000 0077 0216 3077 0077 DCA BLKCNT 0100 0217 5225 0225 JMP INIT1 [ ELSE 0101 0220 7300 #INITP CLA CLL 0102 0221 1172 7577 TAD (0-129. [ WDCNTI = -129. 0103 0222 3076 0076 DCA WDCNTI 0104 0223 1171 5000 TAD (0-3000 [ BLKCNT = - 03000 0105 0224 3077 0077 DCA BLKCNT 0106 0225 3254 0254 #INIT1 DCA BLOCK [ BLOCK = 0 0107 0226 7404 OSR [ IF SR10==1 THEN COMPARE 0110 0227 0170 0002 AND (SRCMP 0111 0230 7440 SZA 0112 0231 5567 0500 JMP CMPINI [ GO COMPARE 0113 0232 7404 OSR [ IF SR9==1 THEN WRITE 0114 0233 0166 0004 AND (SRWRIT 0115 0234 7440 SZA 0116 0235 5565 0603 JMP WTINI [ GO WRITE 0117 [ 0120 [ READ NEXT HUNK (1 FIELD) 0121 [ (16 BLOCKS) INTO MEM. 0122 [ 0123 0236 7300 #RDHNK CLA CLL 0124 0237 1164 7760 TAD (0-16. [ HNKCNT = -16. 0125 0240 3101 0101 DCA HNKCNT 0126 0241 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0127 0242 7300 #RDBLK CLA CLL 0130 0243 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM [ TMA MEMORY ADDRESS 0131 0244 6141 LINC 0132 0245 0023 TMA 0133 0246 0002 PDP 0134 0247 7300 CLA CLL [ EXTENDED, FIELD 1 0135 0250 1163 1020 TAD (1020 0136 0251 6141 LINC 0137 0252 0001 AXO 0140 0253 0710 RDC 10 [ READ UNIT 1 0141 0254 0000 #BLOCK 0 0142 0255 0002 PDP 0143 0256 2254 0254 ISZ BLOCK [ ++BLOCK 0144 0257 7300 CLA CLL 0145 0260 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM [ HNKMEM += 256. 0146 0261 1162 0400 TAD (256. [ EVEN FOR 129. WORD 0147 0262 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ SIMULATED DECTAPES 0150 0263 2101 0101 ISZ HNKCNT [ WHILE ++HNKCNT != 0 0151 0264 5242 0242 JMP RDBLK 0152 [ 0153 [ FILL XMODEM BUFFER 0154 [ 1 WORD AT A TIME. 0155 [ TRANSMIT AS NECESSARY 0156 [ 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 03 LN=0157 0157 0265 7300 CLA CLL 0160 0266 1164 7760 TAD (0-16. [ HNKCNT = -16. 0161 0267 3101 0101 DCA HNKCNT 0162 0270 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ MEMORY ADDR=0 0163 0271 7300 #HNKSND CLA CLL 0164 0272 1076 0076 TAD WDCNTI [ WDCNT = WDCNTI 0165 0273 3100 0100 DCA WDCNT [ (- WORD COUNT) 0166 0274 6211 #HNKNXW CDF 10 [ FIELD 1 HOLDS DATA 0167 0275 1502 0102 TAD;HNKMEM [ AC=WORD 0170 0276 6201 CDF 0 [ BACK TO NORMAL 0171 0277 4330 0330 JMS WDSEND [ PUT WORD IN BUFF 0172 0300 2102 0102 ISZ HNKMEM [ POINT TO NEXT WD 0173 0301 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP ON ZERO 0174 0302 2100 0100 ISZ WDCNT [ UNTIL ++WDCNT == 0 0175 0303 5274 0274 JMP HNKNXW 0176 0304 7300 CLA CLL 0177 0305 1076 0076 TAD WDCNTI [ BUMP MEM ADDR TO 0200 0306 1162 0400 TAD (256. [ NEXT BLOCK. DOES 0201 0307 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM [ NOTHING IF BLOCK 0202 0310 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ SIZE IS 256. 0203 0311 2101 0101 ISZ HNKCNT [ UNTIL ++HNKCNT == 0 0204 0312 5271 0271 JMP HNKSND 0205 [ 0206 [ IF WE HAVE SENT THEM 0207 [ ALL, FLUSH THE BUFFER 0210 [ AND HALT. OTHERWISE 0211 [ GO BACK FOR MORE 0212 [ 0213 0313 7300 CLA CLL 0214 0314 1077 0077 TAD BLKCNT [ BLKCNT += 16. 0215 0315 1161 0020 TAD (16. 0216 0316 3077 0077 DCA BLKCNT 0217 0317 1077 0077 TAD BLKCNT 0220 0320 7440 SZA [ UNTIL BLKCNT == 0 0221 0321 5236 0236 JMP RDHNK 0222 0322 4361 0361 JMS WDFLSH [ FLUSH THE BUFFER 0223 0323 7300 CLA CLL 0224 0324 1166 0004 TAD (XEOT [ SEND EOT CHAR 0225 0325 4560 0466 JMS CHSEND 0226 0326 7402 HLT [ AND HALT 0227 0327 5200 0200 JMP START 0230 [ 0231 [ SUBROUTINE TO PUT A 0232 [ WORD INTO XMODEM 0233 [ BUFFER AND TRIGGER 0234 [ A TRANSMISSION IF 0235 [ THE BUFFER IS FULL 0236 [ 0237 0330 0000 #WDSEND 0 [ RETURN ADDRESS 0240 0331 3470 0070 DCA;XMPTR [ STORE LOW 8 BITS 0241 0332 1157 7770 TAD (0-8. 0242 0333 3075 0075 DCA ROTCNT 0243 0334 1470 0070 TAD;XMPTR [ RESTORE DATA WORD 0244 0335 7110 #WDROT CLL RAR [ AC >>= 8. 0245 0336 2075 0075 ISZ ROTCNT 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 04 LN=0246 0246 0337 5335 0335 JMP WDROT 0247 0340 2070 0070 ISZ XMPTR [ ++ XMPTR 0250 0341 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0251 0342 3470 0070 DCA;XMPTR [ STORE HIGH 4 BITS 0252 0343 2070 0070 ISZ XMPTR [ ++ XMPTR 0253 0344 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0254 0345 2073 0073 ISZ XMCNT 0255 0346 2073 0073 ISZ XMCNT 0256 0347 5730 0330 JMP;WDSEND [ RTRN IF NOT FULL 0257 0350 4562 0400 JMS XMSEND [ ELSE SEND BUFFER 0260 0351 7300 CLA CLL [ RE-INITIALIZE 0261 0352 1177 1155 TAD (XMBUF [ XMPTR = ADDR(XMBUF) 0262 0353 3070 0070 DCA XMPTR 0263 0354 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. [ XMCNT = -128. 0264 0355 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT 0265 0356 2071 0071 ISZ XMBLK [ ++XMBLK (XMODEM BLOCK) 0266 0357 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0267 0360 5730 0330 JMP;WDSEND [ AND RETURN 0270 [ 0271 [ SUBROUTINE TO FLUSH 0272 [ AND AND SEND XMODEM 0273 [ BUFFER 0274 [ 0275 0361 7300 #WDFLSH CLA CLL 0276 0362 1073 0073 TAD XMCNT [ IF COUNT==128. 0277 0363 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. 0300 0364 7450 SNA 0301 0365 5761 0361 JMP;WDFLSH [ THEN JUST RETURN 0302 0366 7300 #WDFILL CLA CLL 0303 0367 3470 0070 DCA;XMPTR [ STUFF A 0 BYTE 0304 0370 2070 0070 ISZ XMPTR [ ++XMPTR 0305 0371 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0306 0372 2073 0073 ISZ XMCNT [ UNTIL ++XMCNT == 0 0307 0373 5366 0366 JMP WDFILL 0310 0374 5761 0361 JMP;WDFLSH [ RETURN WHEN DONE 0311 [ 0312 [ SUBROUTINE TO SEND 0313 [ AN XMODEM MESSAGE, 0314 [ WITH RETRIES 0315 [ 0316 $400 0317 0400 0000 #XMSEND 0 [ RETURN ADDRESS 0320 0401 4225 0425 JMS XMPUT [ TRY AND SEND 0321 0402 4273 0473 JMS CHGET [ GET ACKNOWLEDGEMENT 0322 0403 0156 0077 AND (77 [ FOR TESTING CONV. 0323 0404 3074 0074 DCA XMACK [ SAVE IT FOR LATER 0324 0405 1074 0074 TAD XMACK [ GET IT BACK 0325 0406 1155 7753 TAD (0-XNAK [ IF == NAK 0326 0407 7450 SNA 0327 0410 5201 0401 JMP XMSEND+1 [ THEN RETRY 0330 0411 7300 CLA CLL 0331 0412 1074 0074 TAD XMACK 0332 0413 1154 7750 TAD (0-XCAN [ IF == CANCEL 0333 0414 7440 SZA 0334 0415 5217 0417 JMP XMSND1 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 05 LN=0335 0335 0416 5553 0201 JMP START+1 [ JUST RESTART 0336 0417 7300 #XMSND1 CLA CLL [ ELSE 0337 0420 1074 0074 TAD XMACK 0340 0421 1152 7772 TAD (0-XACK [ IF != ACK 0341 0422 7440 SZA 0342 0423 5201 0401 JMP XMSEND+1 [ RETRY 0343 0424 5600 0400 JMP;XMSEND [ ACK -- RETURN 0344 [ 0345 [ SUBROUTINE TO SEND 0346 [ XMODEM BUFFER 1 TIME 0347 [ 0350 0425 0000 #XMPUT 0 [ RETURN ADDRESS 0351 0426 7300 CLA CLL 0352 0427 1175 0001 TAD (XSOH [ TRANSMIT SOH 0353 0430 4266 0466 JMS CHSEND 0354 0431 7300 CLA CLL 0355 0432 1071 0071 TAD XMBLK [ TRANSMIT BLOCK NO. 0356 0433 4266 0466 JMS CHSEND 0357 0434 7300 CLA CLL 0360 0435 1071 0071 TAD XMBLK 0361 0436 7040 CMA [ TRANSMIT COMPLEMENT 0362 0437 4266 0466 JMS CHSEND 0363 0440 7300 CLA CLL 0364 0441 3072 0072 DCA XMCKSM [ XMCKSM = 0 0365 0442 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. [ XMCNT = -128. 0366 0443 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT 0367 0444 1177 1155 TAD (XMBUF [ XMPTR = ADDR(XMBUF) 0370 0445 3070 0070 DCA XMPTR 0371 0446 7300 #XMSPUT CLA CLL [ SEND *XMPTR 0372 0447 1470 0070 TAD;XMPTR 0373 0450 4266 0466 JMS CHSEND 0374 0451 7300 CLA CLL [ XMCKSM += *XMPTR 0375 0452 1470 0070 TAD;XMPTR 0376 0453 1072 0072 TAD XMCKSM 0377 0454 3072 0072 DCA XMCKSM 0400 0455 2070 0070 ISZ XMPTR [ ++XMPTR 0401 0456 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0402 0457 2073 0073 ISZ XMCNT [ UNTIL ++XMCNT == 0 0403 0460 5246 0446 JMP XMSPUT 0404 0461 6402 DKCC [ PREPARE FOR ACK CHAR 0405 0462 7300 CLA CLL [ SEND CHECKSUM 0406 0463 1072 0072 TAD XMCKSM 0407 0464 4266 0466 JMS CHSEND 0410 0465 5625 0425 JMP;XMPUT [ AND RETURN 0411 [ 0412 [ ROUTINE TO SEND CHAR 0413 [ 0414 0466 0000 #CHSEND 0 [ RETURN ADDRESS 0415 0467 6416 DTLS [ SEND THE CHAR 0416 0470 6411 DTSF [ CHECK FLAG 0417 0471 5270 0470 JMP *-1 [ WAIT TILL DONE 0420 0472 5666 0466 JMP;CHSEND 0421 [ 0422 [ ROUTINE TO WAIT FOR 0423 [ AND RECEIVE A CHAR 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 06 LN=0424 0424 [ 0425 0473 0000 #CHGET 0 [ RETURN ADDRESS 0426 0474 6401 DKSF [ WAIT FOR CHAR 0427 0475 5274 0474 JMP *-1 0430 0476 6406 DKRB [ RECEIVE THE CHAR 0431 0477 5673 0473 JMP;CHGET [ AND RETURN 0432 [ 0433 [ COMPARE INCOMING DATA 0434 [ TO TAPE DRIVE 1 0435 [ 0436 0500 7300 #CMPINI CLA CLL 0437 0501 3323 0523 DCA CMPBLK [ CMPBLK = 0 0440 0502 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT [ INIT XM BUFFER EMPTY 0441 0503 1151 0025 TAD (XNAK [ PRIME INITAL NACK 0442 0504 3074 0074 DCA XMACK 0443 [ 0444 [ COMPARE NEXT HUNK 0445 [ 0446 0505 7300 #CMPHNK CLA CLL 0447 0506 1164 7760 TAD (0-16. [ HNKCNT = -16 0450 0507 3101 0101 DCA HNKCNT 0451 0510 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0452 0511 7300 #CMPRB CLA CLL [ READ NEXT BLOCK 0453 0512 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM [ GET MEM ADDR 0454 0513 6141 LINC 0455 0514 0023 TMA 0456 0515 0002 PDP 0457 0516 7300 CLA CLL 0460 0517 1163 1020 TAD (1020 [ XA MODE, FIELD 1 0461 0520 6141 LINC 0462 0521 0001 AXO 0463 0522 0710 RDC 10 [ READ UNIT 1 0464 0523 0000 #CMPBLK 0 [ BLOCK NUMBER 0465 0524 0002 PDP 0466 0525 2323 0523 ISZ CMPBLK [ ++CMPBLK 0467 0526 7300 CLA CLL 0470 0527 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM [ HNKMEM += 256 0471 0530 1162 0400 TAD (256. [ EVEN FOR 129 WORD 0472 0531 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ BLOCK TAPES 0473 0532 2101 0101 ISZ HNKCNT [ WHILE ++HNKCNT != 0 0474 0533 5311 0511 JMP CMPRB [ GO READ NEXT BLK 0475 [ 0476 [ THEN COMPARE WHAT WE 0477 [ JUST READ TO INCOMING 0500 [ DATA FROM XMODEM 0501 [ 0502 0534 7300 CLA CLL 0503 0535 1164 7760 TAD (0-16. [ HNKCNT = -16. 0504 0536 3101 0101 DCA HNKCNT 0505 0537 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0506 0540 7300 #CMPCBK CLA CLL 0507 0541 1076 0076 TAD WDCNTI [ WDCNT = WDCNTI 0510 0542 3100 0100 DCA WDCNT 0511 0543 4550 1000 #CMPCWD JMS RDWD [ GET WORD FROM XMODEM 0512 0544 7041 CMA IAC [ AC = -AC 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 07 LN=0513 0513 0545 6211 CDF 10 [ COMPARE TO DATA 0514 0546 1502 0102 TAD;HNKMEM [ FROM TAPE 0515 0547 6201 CDF 0 0516 0550 7440 SZA [ COMPARE OK 0517 0551 7402 HLT [ MIS-COMPARE!!! 0520 0552 2102 0102 ISZ HNKMEM [ POINT TO NEXT WORD 0521 0553 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0522 0554 2100 0100 ISZ WDCNT [ UNTIL ++WDCNT == 0 0523 0555 5343 0543 JMP CMPCWD [ GO COMPARE NEXT WD 0524 0556 7300 CLA CLL [ BUMP UP TO NEXT 0525 0557 1076 0076 TAD WDCNTI [ BLOCK. DOES NOTHING 0526 0560 1162 0400 TAD (256. [ FOR 256. WORD BLOCKS 0527 0561 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM 0530 0562 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM 0531 0563 2101 0101 ISZ HNKCNT [ UNTIL ++HNKCNT == 0 0532 0564 5340 0540 JMP CMPCBK [ GO COMPARE NEXT BLOCK 0533 [ 0534 [ IF WE COMPARED IT ALL, HALT 0535 [ 0536 0565 7300 CLA CLL 0537 0566 1077 0077 TAD BLKCNT [ BLKCNT += 16 0540 0567 1161 0020 TAD (16. 0541 0570 3077 0077 DCA BLKCNT 0542 0571 1077 0077 TAD BLKCNT [ RESTORE AC 0543 0572 7440 SZA 0544 0573 5305 0505 JMP CMPHNK [ MORE TO COMPARE 0545 0574 1147 0006 TAD (XACK [ ACK FINAL BLOCK 0546 0575 4266 0466 JMS CHSEND 0547 0576 7300 CLA CLL 0550 0577 1147 0006 TAD (XACK 0551 0600 4560 0466 JMS CHSEND 0552 0601 7402 HLT [ HALT, THEN RESTART 0553 0602 5553 0201 JMP START+1 [ SKIP INIT HLT 0554 [ 0555 [ WRITE TAPE FROM INCOMING DATA 0556 [ 0557 0603 7402 #WTINI HLT [ FOR SAFETY 0560 0604 7300 CLA CLL 0561 0605 3253 0653 DCA WTBLOK [ WTBLOK = 0 0562 0606 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT [ INIT XMODEM BUF EMPTY 0563 0607 1151 0025 TAD (XNAK [ PRIME INITIAL NACK 0564 0610 3074 0074 DCA XMACK 0565 0611 7300 #WTGHNK CLA CLL [ HNKCNT = -16. 0566 0612 1164 7760 TAD (0-16. 0567 0613 3101 0101 DCA HNKCNT 0570 0614 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0571 0615 7300 #WTGBK CLA CLL 0572 0616 1076 0076 TAD WDCNTI [ WDCNT = -WORDS/BLOCK 0573 0617 3100 0100 DCA WDCNT 0574 0620 4550 1000 #WTGWD JMS RDWD [ GET WORD FROM XMODEM 0575 0621 6211 CDF 10 0576 0622 3502 0102 DCA;HNKMEM [ STORE IN TAPE BUFF 0577 0623 6201 CDF 0 0600 0624 2102 0102 ISZ HNKMEM [ ++HNKMEM 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 08 LN=0601 0601 0625 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0602 0626 2100 0100 ISZ WDCNT [ UNTIL ++WDCNT == 0 0603 0627 5220 0620 JMP WTGWD 0604 0630 1076 0076 TAD WDCNTI [ BUMP TO NEXT BLOCK 0605 0631 1162 0400 TAD (256. [ HNKMEM += 256-BLKSIZE 0606 0632 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM 0607 0633 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM 0610 0634 2101 0101 ISZ HNKCNT [ UNTIL ++HNKCNT == 0 0611 0635 5215 0615 JMP WTGBK 0612 0636 1164 7760 TAD (0-16. [ HNKCNT = -16. 0613 0637 3101 0101 DCA HNKCNT 0614 0640 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0615 0641 7300 #WTBLK CLA CLL 0616 0642 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM [ TMA MEMORY ADDR 0617 0643 6141 LINC 0620 0644 0023 TMA 0621 0645 0002 PDP 0622 0646 7300 CLA CLL 0623 0647 1163 1020 TAD (1020 [ XA MODE, FIELD 1 0624 0650 6141 LINC 0625 0651 0001 AXO 0626 0652 0716 WDE 10 [ WRITE TAPE BLOCK 0627 0653 0000 #WTBLOK 0 0630 0654 0002 PDP 0631 0655 2253 0653 ISZ WTBLOK [ ++WTBLOK 0632 0656 7300 CLA CLL 0633 0657 1102 0102 TAD HNKMEM [ HNKMEM += 256. 0634 0660 1162 0400 TAD (256. [ EVEN FOR 129 WD 0635 0661 3102 0102 DCA HNKMEM [ BLOCKS 0636 0662 2101 0101 ISZ HNKCNT [ UNTIL ++HNKCNT == 0 0637 0663 5241 0641 JMP WTBLK 0640 [ 0641 [ IF ALL HUNKS WRITTEN 0642 [ THEN HALT 0643 [ 0644 0664 7300 CLA CLL 0645 0665 1077 0077 TAD BLKCNT [ BLKCNT += BLOCKS/HUNK 0646 0666 1161 0020 TAD (16. 0647 0667 3077 0077 DCA BLKCNT 0650 0670 1077 0077 TAD BLKCNT 0651 0671 7440 SZA 0652 0672 5211 0611 JMP WTGHNK [ GO DO NEXT HUNK 0653 0673 1147 0006 TAD (XACK [ ACK FINAL BLOCK 0654 0674 4560 0466 JMS CHSEND 0655 0675 7300 CLA CLL 0656 0676 1147 0006 TAD (XACK 0657 0677 4560 0466 JMS CHSEND 0660 0700 7402 HLT [ THEN HALT -- WELL DONE! 0661 0701 5553 0201 JMP START+1 [ SKIP INITIAL HALT 0662 [ 0663 [ ROUTINE TO RECEIVE 0664 [ A WORD FROM XMODEM 0665 [ 0666 $1000 0667 1000 0000 #RDWD 0 [ RETURN ADDR 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 09 LN=0670 0670 1001 7300 CLA CLL 0671 1002 1073 0073 TAD XMCNT [ IF BUFFER IS EMPTY 0672 1003 7440 SZA 0673 1004 5216 1016 JMP RDWD2 [ BUFFER NOT EMPTY 0674 1005 4237 1037 JMS XMGET [ GO FILL BUFFER 0675 1006 7450 SNA [ SKIP IF EOT 0676 1007 5212 1012 JMP RDWD1 [ NOT EOT -- OK 0677 1010 7402 HLT [ EOT - NOT EXPECTED 0700 1011 5210 1010 JMP *-1 [ HARD HALT 0701 1012 1177 1155 #RDWD1 TAD (XMBUF [ XMPTR = ADDR(XMBUFF) 0702 1013 3070 0070 DCA XMPTR 0703 1014 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. [ XMCNT = -128. 0704 1015 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT 0705 1016 7300 #RDWD2 CLA CLL [ CLEAR AC 0706 1017 1470 0070 TAD;XMPTR [ WORD = *XMPTR 0707 1020 3103 0103 DCA XMWORD [ SAVE IT 0710 1021 2070 0070 ISZ XMPTR [ ++XMPTR 0711 1022 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0712 1023 1470 0070 TAD;XMPTR [ GET NEXT CHAR 0713 1024 2070 0070 ISZ XMPTR [ ++XMPTR 0714 1025 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0715 1026 7012 RTR [ >>= 2 0716 1027 7012 RTR [ >>= 2 0717 1030 7010 RAR [ >>= 1 == <<= 8 0720 1031 0174 7400 AND (7400 [ KEEP 4 BITS 0721 1032 1103 0103 TAD XMWORD [ OR IN LOW 8 BITS 0722 1033 2073 0073 ISZ XMCNT 0723 1034 2073 0073 ISZ XMCNT 0724 1035 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0725 1036 5600 1000 JMP;RDWD [ RETURN WITH WORD 0726 [ 0727 [ ROUTINE TO READ 1 0730 [ 128 BYTE XMODEM BLOCK 0731 [ 0732 1037 0000 #XMGET 0 [ RETURN ADDRESS 0733 1040 7300 CLA CLL 0734 1041 1177 1155 TAD (XMBUF [ XMPTR = ADDR(XMBUF) 0735 1042 3070 0070 DCA XMPTR 0736 1043 3072 0072 DCA XMCKSM [ XMCKSM = 0 0737 1044 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. 0740 1045 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT [ XMCNT = -128. 0741 1046 1074 0074 TAD XMACK [ SEND ACK OR NACK 0742 1047 4560 0466 JMS CHSEND 0743 1050 4546 0473 #XMGSOH JMS CHGET [ WAIT FOR SOH 0744 1051 3104 0104 DCA XMPROT [ SAVE CHAR 0745 1052 1104 0104 TAD XMPROT [ RESTORE 0746 1053 1145 7777 TAD (0-XSOH [ IS CHAR == SOH? 0747 1054 7450 SNA 0750 1055 5267 1067 JMP XMGBLK [ CHAR == SOH 0751 1056 7300 CLA CLL [ CHAR != SOH 0752 1057 1104 0104 TAD XMPROT [ IS CHAR == EOT? 0753 1060 1144 7774 TAD (0-XEOT 0754 1061 7450 SNA 0755 1062 5265 1065 JMP XMGEOT [ CHAR IS EOT 0756 1063 4350 1150 JMS XMNACK [ NOT EOT. JUNK! NAK! 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 10 LN=0757 0757 1064 5250 1050 JMP XMGSOH [ AND GO LOOK FOR SOH 0760 1065 7301 #XMGEOT CLA CLL IAC [ IF EOT -- RETURN 1 0761 1066 5637 1037 JMP;XMGET 0762 1067 4546 0473 #XMGBLK JMS CHGET [ SOH. GET BLOCK # 0763 1070 7041 CMA IAC [ COMPARE TO EXPECTED 0764 1071 1071 0071 TAD XMBLK 0765 1072 7450 SNA 0766 1073 5277 1077 JMP XMGBLC [ OK. GET COMPLEMENT 0767 1074 7402 HLT [ NOT OK. HALT, THEN NAK 0770 1075 4350 1150 JMS XMNACK 0771 1076 5250 1050 JMP XMGSOH [ THEN GET SOH AGAIN 0772 1077 4546 0473 #XMGBLC JMS CHGET [ GET BLOCK COMPLEMENT 0773 1100 7001 IAC [ NOW IT IS -BLOCK (ALMOST) 0774 1101 1071 0071 TAD XMBLK [ COMPARE WITH EXPECTED 0775 1102 0143 0377 AND (377 [ 8 BIT SUM 0776 1103 7450 SNA 0777 1104 5310 1110 JMP XMGDAT [ OK - GO GET DATA 1000 1105 7402 HLT [ NOT OK. HALT, THEN NAK 1001 1106 4350 1150 JMS XMNACK 1002 1107 5250 1050 JMP XMGSOH 1003 1110 4546 0473 #XMGDAT JMS CHGET [ GET A CHAR OF DATA 1004 1111 3470 0070 DCA;XMPTR [ *XMPTR = CHAR 1005 1112 1470 0070 TAD;XMPTR [ RESTORE TO AC 1006 1113 1072 0072 TAD XMCKSM [ ADD TO CHKSUM 1007 1114 3072 0072 DCA XMCKSM 1010 1115 2070 0070 ISZ XMPTR [ ++XMPTR 1011 1116 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 1012 1117 2073 0073 ISZ XMCNT [ UNTIL ++XMCNT == 0 1013 1120 5310 1110 JMP XMGDAT 1014 1121 4546 0473 #XMGCKS JMS CHGET [ GET CHECKSUM CHAR 1015 1122 7041 CMA IAC [ - CHECKSUM 1016 1123 1072 0072 TAD XMCKSM [ COMPARE WITH EXPECTED 1017 1124 0143 0377 AND (377 [ 8 BIT SUM 1020 1125 7450 SNA 1021 1126 5334 1134 JMP XMGACK [ OK -- GO ACK 1022 1127 7402 HLT [ FOR DEBUGGING 1023 1130 7300 CLA CLL 1024 1131 1151 0025 TAD (XNAK [ PRIME TO NACK 1025 1132 3074 0074 DCA XMACK 1026 1133 5240 1040 JMP XMGET+1 [ AND TRY AGAIN 1027 1134 1147 0006 #XMGACK TAD (XACK [ ACK1 1030 1135 3074 0074 DCA XMACK [ PRIME TO ACK IT 1031 1136 7300 CLA CLL [ BUMP XMODEM BLOCK # 1032 1137 1071 0071 TAD XMBLK 1033 1140 7001 IAC 1034 1141 0143 0377 AND (377 [ ONLY 8 BITS! 1035 1142 3071 0071 DCA XMBLK 1036 1143 1177 1155 TAD (XMBUF [ XMPTR = ADDR(XMBUF) 1037 1144 3070 0070 DCA XMPTR 1040 1145 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. [ XMCNT = -128. 1041 1146 3073 0073 DCA XMCNT 1042 1147 5637 1037 JMP;XMGET [ RETURN (AC=0) 1043 [ 1044 [ ROUTINE TO SEND 1045 [ A NACK CHAR 8L OF XMTAPE PAGE 11 LN=1046 1046 [ 1047 1150 0000 #XMNACK 0 [ RETURN ADDR 1050 1151 7300 CLA CLL 1051 1152 1151 0025 TAD (XNAK 1052 1153 4560 0466 JMS CHSEND 1053 1154 5750 1150 JMP;XMNACK [ RETURN 1054 [ 1055 [ XMODEM BUFFER 1056 [ 1057 1155 0000 #XMBUF 0 8R OF XMTAPE PAGE 01 0001 AXO 0022 0137 0462 0625 0077 BLKCNT 0047 0077 0105 0214 0216 0217 0537 0541 0542 0645 0647 0650 0254 BLOCK 0141 0106 0143 0473 CHGET 0425 0321 0431 0743 0762 0772 1003 1014 0466 CHSEND 0414 0225 0353 0356 0362 0373 0407 0420 0546 0551 0654 0657 0742 1052 0523 CMPBLK 0464 0437 0466 0540 CMPCBK 0506 0532 0543 CMPCWD 0511 0523 0505 CMPHNK 0446 0544 0500 CMPINI 0436 0112 0511 CMPRB 0452 0474 6402 DKCC 0030 0404 6406 DKRB 0031 0430 6401 DKSF 0027 0426 6416 DTLS 0032 0415 6411 DTSF 0033 0416 0101 HNKCNT 0051 0125 0150 0161 0203 0450 0473 0504 0531 0567 0610 0613 0636 0102 HNKMEM 0052 0126 0130 0145 0147 0162 0167 0172 0201 0202 0451 0453 0470 0472 0505 0514 0520 0527 0530 0570 0576 0600 0606 0607 0614 0616 0633 0635 0274 HNKNXW 0166 0175 0271 HNKSND 0163 0204 0225 INIT1 0106 0100 0220 INITP 0101 0073 0002 PDP 0023 0133 0142 0456 0465 0621 0630 0242 RDBLK 0127 0151 0700 RDC 0025 0140 0463 0236 RDHNK 0123 0221 1012 RDWD1 0701 0676 1016 RDWD2 0705 0673 1000 RDWD 0667 0511 0574 0725 0075 ROTCNT 0045 0242 0245 0002 SRCMP 0015 0110 0001 SRTAPE 0014 0071 0004 SRWRIT 0016 0114 0200 START 0061 0227 0335 0553 0661 0023 TMA 0024 0132 0455 0620 0100 WDCNT 0050 0165 0174 0510 0522 0573 0602 0076 WDCNTI 0046 0075 0103 0164 0177 0507 0525 0572 0604 0706 WDE 0026 0626 0366 WDFILL 0302 0307 0361 WDFLSH 0275 0222 0301 0310 0335 WDROT 0244 0246 0330 WDSEND 0237 0171 0256 0267 0641 WTBLK 0615 0637 0653 WTBLOK 0627 0561 0631 0615 WTGBK 0571 0611 0611 WTGHNK 0565 0652 0620 WTGWD 0574 0603 0603 WTINI 0557 0116 0006 XACK 0012 0340 0545 0550 0653 0656 1027 0030 XCAN 0011 0332 0004 XEOT 0013 0224 0753 0074 XMACK 0044 0323 0324 0331 0337 0442 0564 0741 1025 1030 8R OF XMTAPE PAGE 02 0071 XMBLK 0041 0063 0265 0355 0360 0764 0774 1032 1035 1155 XMBUF 1057 0064 0261 0367 0701 0734 1036 0072 XMCKSM 0042 0364 0376 0377 0406 0736 1006 1007 1016 0073 XMCNT 0043 0067 0254 0255 0264 0276 0306 0366 0402 0440 0562 0671 0704 0722 0723 0740 1012 1041 1134 XMGACK 1027 1021 1077 XMGBLC 0772 0766 1067 XMGBLK 0762 0750 1121 XMGCKS 1014 1110 XMGDAT 1003 0777 1013 1065 XMGEOT 0760 0755 1037 XMGET 0732 0674 0761 1026 1042 1050 XMGSOH 0743 0757 0771 1002 1150 XMNACK 1047 0756 0770 1001 1053 0104 XMPROT 0054 0744 0745 0752 0070 XMPTR 0040 0065 0240 0243 0247 0251 0252 0262 0303 0304 0370 0372 0375 0400 0702 0706 0710 0712 0713 0735 1004 1005 1010 1037 0425 XMPUT 0350 0320 0410 0400 XMSEND 0317 0257 0327 0342 0343 0417 XMSND1 0336 0334 0446 XMSPUT 0371 0403 0103 XMWORD 0053 0707 0721 0025 XNAK 0010 0325 0441 0563 1024 1051 0001 XSOH 0007 0352 0746 ================================================= 8L OF CMPTAP PAGE 01 LN=0001 0001 [ 0002 [ PROGRAM TO COMARE TWO 0003 [ LINC TAPES IN STD OR 0004 [ 129. WORD FORMAT 0005 [ 0006 [ 0007 [ CONSTANTS 0010 [ 0011 SRTAPE=1 [ SR 11 = 1 FOR DECTAPE 0012 [ 0013 [ SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS 0014 [ 0015 AXO=1 0016 PDP=2 0017 TMA=23 0020 RDC=700 0021 [ 0022 [ DATA 0023 [ 0024 $70 0025 0070 0000 #WDCNTI 0 [ WORDS / BLOCK 0026 0071 0000 #BLKCNT 0 [ BLOCKS / TAPE 0027 0072 0000 #WDCNT 0 [ WORD COUNTER 0030 0073 0000 #HNKCNT 0 [ BLOCK COUNTER 0031 0074 0000 #HNKMEM 0 [ MEMORY POINTER 0032 [ 0033 [ BEGIN HERE 0034 [ 0035 $200 0036 0200 7402 #START HLT [ WAIT FOR TAPE MOUNT 0037 0201 7300 CLA CLL 0040 0202 7404 OSR [ READ RIGHT SWITCHES 0041 0203 0177 0001 AND (SRTAPE 0042 0204 7440 SZA [ SKIP IF STD LINC TAPE 0043 0205 5213 0213 JMP INITP [ GO INIT DEC TAPE 0044 0206 1176 7400 TAD (0-256. [ STD IS 256 WDS 0045 0207 3070 0070 DCA WDCNTI 0046 0210 1175 7000 TAD (0-1000 [ 1000 BLOCKS 0047 0211 3071 0071 DCA BLKCNT 0050 0212 5220 0220 JMP INIT1 [ CONTINUE 0051 0213 7300 #INITP CLA CLL 0052 0214 1174 7577 TAD (0-129. [ DEC TAPES 129. WDS 0053 0215 3070 0070 DCA WDCNTI 0054 0216 1173 5000 TAD (0-3000 [ 3000 BLOCKS 0055 0217 3071 0071 DCA BLKCNT 0056 0220 7300 #INIT1 CLA CLL 0057 0221 3241 0241 DCA BLOCK0 [ RESET BLOCK #'S 0060 0222 3270 0270 DCA BLOCK1 0061 [ 0062 [ READ IN THE NEXT HUNK 0063 [ OF 16 BLOCKS 0064 [ 0065 0223 7300 #RDHNK CLA CLL 0066 0224 1172 7760 TAD (0-16. 0067 0225 3073 0073 DCA HNKCNT [ HNKCNT = -16. 8L OF CMPTAP PAGE 02 LN=0070 0070 0226 3074 0074 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0071 0227 7300 #RDBLK0 CLA CLL [ READ HUNK FROM U0 0072 0230 1074 0074 TAD HNKMEM [ TMA MEM ADDR 0073 0231 6141 LINC 0074 0232 0023 TMA 0075 0233 0002 PDP 0076 0234 7300 CLA CLL 0077 0235 1171 1020 TAD (1020 [ XA FIELD 1 0100 0236 6141 LINC 0101 0237 0001 AXO 0102 0240 0700 RDC 0 [ READ UNIT 0 0103 0241 0000 #BLOCK0 0 [ BLOCK NUMBER 0104 0242 0002 PDP 0105 0243 2241 0241 ISZ BLOCK0 [ ++BLOCK0 0106 0244 7300 CLA CLL 0107 0245 1074 0074 TAD HNKMEM [ HNKMEM += 256. 0110 0246 1170 0400 TAD (256. 0111 0247 3074 0074 DCA HNKMEM 0112 0250 2073 0073 ISZ HNKCNT [ UNTIL ++HNKCNT == 0 0113 0251 5227 0227 JMP RDBLK0 0114 [ 0115 [ THEN READ A HUNK 0116 [ FROM UNIT 1 0117 [ 0120 0252 7300 CLA CLL 0121 0253 1172 7760 TAD (0-16. [ HNKCNT = -16. 0122 0254 3073 0073 DCA HNKCNT 0123 0255 3074 0074 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0124 0256 7300 #RDBLK1 CLA CLL 0125 0257 1074 0074 TAD HNKMEM [ TMA MEM ADDR 0126 0260 6141 LINC 0127 0261 0023 TMA 0130 0262 0002 PDP 0131 0263 7300 CLA CLL 0132 0264 1167 2020 TAD (2020 [ XA MODE, FIELD 2 0133 0265 6141 LINC 0134 0266 0001 AXO 0135 0267 0710 RDC 10 [ READ UNIT 1 0136 0270 0000 #BLOCK1 0 0137 0271 0002 PDP 0140 0272 2270 0270 ISZ BLOCK1 [ ++BLOCK1 0141 0273 7300 CLA CLL 0142 0274 1074 0074 TAD HNKMEM [ HNKMEM += 256 0143 0275 1170 0400 TAD (256. 0144 0276 3074 0074 DCA HNKMEM 0145 0277 2073 0073 ISZ HNKCNT [ UNTIL ++HNKCNT == 0 0146 0300 5256 0256 JMP RDBLK1 0147 [ 0150 [ THEN COMPARE THE 0151 [ TWO, 1 WORD AT A 0152 [ TIME, BLOCK BY BLOCK 0153 [ UNTIL THE HUNK IS DONE 0154 [ 0155 0301 7300 CLA CLL 0156 0302 1172 7760 TAD (0-16. [ BLOCKS / HUNK 8L OF CMPTAP PAGE 03 LN=0157 0157 0303 3073 0073 DCA HNKCNT 0160 0304 3074 0074 DCA HNKMEM [ HNKMEM = 0 0161 0305 7300 #CMPBLK CLA CLL 0162 0306 1070 0070 TAD WDCNTI [ WDCNT = -WORDS/BLOCK 0163 0307 3072 0072 DCA WDCNT 0164 0310 7300 #CMPWD CLA CLL 0165 0311 6211 CDF 10 [ DATA FIELD 1 0166 0312 1474 0074 TAD;HNKMEM [ GET WORD 0167 0313 7041 CMA IAC [ -WORD 0170 0314 6221 CDF 20 [ DATA FIELD 2 0171 0315 1474 0074 TAD;HNKMEM 0172 0316 6201 CDF 0 [ BACK TO NORMAL 0173 0317 7440 SZA [ DID WORDS COMPARE? 0174 0320 7402 HLT [ MIS COMPARE !! 0175 0321 2074 0074 ISZ HNKMEM [ ++HNKMEM 0176 0322 7000 NOP [ FOR SKIP 0177 0323 2072 0072 ISZ WDCNT [ UNTIL BLOCK IS DONE 0200 0324 5310 0310 JMP CMPWD 0201 0325 7300 CLA CLL 0202 0326 1070 0070 TAD WDCNTI [ BUMP TO NEXT BLOCK 0203 0327 1170 0400 TAD (256. 0204 0330 1074 0074 TAD HNKMEM 0205 0331 3074 0074 DCA HNKMEM 0206 0332 2073 0073 ISZ HNKCNT [ UNTIL ALL HUNKS DONE 0207 0333 5305 0305 JMP CMPBLK 0210 [ 0211 [ SEE IF ALL HUNKS 0212 [ HAVE BEEN COMPARED 0213 [ 0214 0334 7300 CLA CLL 0215 0335 1071 0071 TAD BLKCNT [ BLKCNT += 16 0216 0336 1166 0020 TAD (16. 0217 0337 3071 0071 DCA BLKCNT 0220 0340 1071 0071 TAD BLKCNT [ RESTORE BLOCK COUNTER 0221 0341 7440 SZA [ ALL DONE? 0222 0342 5223 0223 JMP RDHNK [ NOPE - BACK FOR MORE 0223 0343 7402 HLT [ ALL DONE1 0224 0344 5201 0201 JMP START+1 [ TO RUN AGAIN 8R OF CMPTAP PAGE 01 0001 AXO 0015 0101 0134 0071 BLKCNT 0026 0047 0055 0215 0217 0220 0241 BLOCK0 0103 0057 0105 0270 BLOCK1 0136 0060 0140 0305 CMPBLK 0161 0207 0310 CMPWD 0164 0200 0073 HNKCNT 0030 0067 0112 0122 0145 0157 0206 0074 HNKMEM 0031 0070 0072 0107 0111 0123 0125 0142 0144 0160 0166 0171 0175 0204 0205 0220 INIT1 0056 0050 0213 INITP 0051 0043 0002 PDP 0016 0075 0104 0130 0137 0227 RDBLK0 0071 0113 0256 RDBLK1 0124 0146 0700 RDC 0020 0102 0135 0223 RDHNK 0065 0222 0001 SRTAPE 0011 0041 0200 START 0036 0224 0023 TMA 0017 0074 0127 0072 WDCNT 0027 0163 0177 0070 WDCNTI 0025 0045 0053 0162 0202 From ben at listenfaster.com Tue Nov 2 17:22:07 2021 From: ben at listenfaster.com (Ben McAllister) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:22:07 -0700 Subject: Zorba owners/Help diagnosing display issues Message-ID: Hello from Seattle everyone, I'm new to the list. I recently bought a Zorba on Ebay, which was my first machine as a kid back in 1985, dialing into BBSs and learning assembly and basic. I put a lot of hours in on this machine and was very excited to acquire one, even though the sale was 'as is'. I have some issues to address, beginning with perhaps a faulty component on the video board driving the crt. While I'm an experienced programmer and have some rudimentary skills with electronics, I'm going to be in bootcamp troubleshooting this board. I have some help in my network of friends, but wanted to throw this out to the list. Are there any Zorba owners who would be willing to trade notes/advice with me on their experiences troubleshooting hardware issues (or anyone else out there, for that matter :) )? Have you used the composite video out to feed another monitor? Detail on my first issue: the display appears to need the kind of stabilization I _thought_ the horizontal and vertical hold adjustments would provide, but it's not entirely stable. I have tried the composite out, feeding it to a cheap composite->HDMI adapter, but that signal looks like a blank screen in need of vert/horiz hold adjusting. Before I go much further, I was hoping someone out there might be able to verify their use of the composite out to an external display. I haven't found any detail on what that signal should look like, other than it's 'composite' - maybe someone with more expertise can tell me what assumptions I can make about a composite signal. Thanks for reading that long message - and glad to be a new member of the list. Ben From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Nov 2 18:11:44 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:11:44 -0700 Subject: The Prolok Saga (Was: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> Message-ID: <005501d7d03f$0187c0f0$049742d0$@net> > Vault Corporation produced "Prolok" with a physical defect. To make it > MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE to investors and clients, instead of a roomful of > people scratching disks with paperclips, they used a "laser > fingerprint" > (use a laser, instead of a paperclip). Which could be defeated w/ the Copy II Plus Enhanced Option board: http://retro.icequake.net/dob/img/eob/ This board had a small bit of onboard RAM that would load info about the defect: "EOB has an extra circuitry that allows it to emulate a burn-hole in a diskette and cause a running application to think that the original diskette is present inside the drive. As it can be understood, the copy of a burn-hole protected diskette can only be executed on a computer equipped with the standard or deluxe EOB. In order to create a working copy of a diskette that is protected by a physically damaged media, the diskette has to be copied using the regular option board methods (TC/TCM), and then the EOB utility PK.COM must be executed in order to analyze the original diskette and locate the exact place of the burn-hole. Once the place has been found, PK saves the data in a file for future use. Every time before the copied diskette is used, the PK application must be executed with the filename that contains the information as a parameter. Then, PK will program the EPROM that is present on the EOB, according to the information inside that file. Whenever the copy protected application tests for the original diskette and tries to read from (or write to) the physically damaged sector, the EOB emulates the very exact behavior of a physically damaged media at the exact place where the burn-hole was, thus confusing the application to think that the original diskette is present inside the drive." From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 18:51:26 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:51:26 -0400 Subject: Zorba owners/Help diagnosing display issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suppose the first thing you need is the schematics for the Zorba, anyone have this? Do you have a volt meter with an ESR setting? There are caps in the display controller board, but not too many that often are used to control the wobble and hotiz/vert behind the potentiometers. Start with an inspection of these caps. You should test them and replace the bad ones. Also test caps near the voltage regulators and coming from the main power connector. It's a bit of a shotgun approach, but if you test after each change you might get lucky and the display will stabilize without having to make too many repairs. You could stop at that point until something happens again. Keep a record of which caps you replaced. It could be something other than a cap. voltage regulators go too, but as you describe the symptoms I would bet there is a bad cap in the display controller board. If the system does not work at all it could be a power supply problem. Bill On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:22 PM Ben McAllister via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello from Seattle everyone, > > I'm new to the list. I recently bought a Zorba on Ebay, which was my first > machine as a kid back in 1985, dialing into BBSs and learning assembly and > basic. I put a lot of hours in on this machine and was very excited to > acquire one, even though the sale was 'as is'. I have some issues to > address, beginning with perhaps a faulty component on the video board > driving the crt. > > While I'm an experienced programmer and have some rudimentary skills with > electronics, I'm going to be in bootcamp troubleshooting this board. I have > some help in my network of friends, but wanted to throw this out to the > list. Are there any Zorba owners who would be willing to trade > notes/advice with me on their experiences troubleshooting hardware issues > (or anyone else out there, for that matter :) )? Have you used the > composite video out to feed another monitor? > > Detail on my first issue: the display appears to need the kind of > stabilization I _thought_ the horizontal and vertical hold adjustments > would provide, but it's not entirely stable. I have tried the composite > out, feeding it to a cheap composite->HDMI adapter, but that signal looks > like a blank screen in need of vert/horiz hold adjusting. Before I go much > further, I was hoping someone out there might be able to verify their use > of the composite out to an external display. I haven't found any detail on > what that signal should look like, other than it's 'composite' - maybe > someone with more expertise can tell me what assumptions I can make about a > composite signal. > > Thanks for reading that long message - and glad to be a new member of the > list. > Ben > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 2 19:17:09 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Prolok Saga (Was: Applesauce FDC In-Reply-To: <005501d7d03f$0187c0f0$049742d0$@net> References: <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556.ref@DS1821> <25fc3c84-0b3a-45f7-b30b-3661b08c5556@DS1821> <08A60B1E-CC06-4940-BA47-177F7B2F3582@bu.edu> <005501d7d03f$0187c0f0$049742d0$@net> Message-ID: >> Vault Corporation produced "Prolok" with a physical defect. To make it On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, Ali wrote: > Which could be defeated w/ the Copy II Plus Enhanced Option board: > http://retro.icequake.net/dob/img/eob/ There were many ways around it. Because Vault didn't write a new software package for each client, it was fairly easy, after some [not always easy] disassembly to make a patch that cracked it. Those patches were widely distributed, and the end user only knew that it was a small patch. I find it important to note that the Vault VS Quaid lawsuit was before DMCA. Afterwards, Vault might have prevailed! At the time, disassembly and bypassing copy-protection was not illegaal. But, Vault tried to claim that Quaid's software infringed on Vault's copyright! The courts ruled that Quaid's software was in no way a copy of Vault's. There was no sftware by Vault included inside the Quaid software. The announcement of Prolok-PLUS was insane, and destroyed Vault. There were many other protection schemes. Early on, I noticed that the software with the Central Point Option Board could not work if it didn't see the index hole. As a proof of concept, I showed that one could write a disk disk without an index hole (indexing on spindle, or covering the hole (moving cookie to a flipped jacket)) that couldn't be copied by the Option Board, but could be copied by DISKCOPY. From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:53:42 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:53:42 -0700 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On 11/2/2021 2:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Here is a program I wrote for reading/writing tape images via XModem > protocol for my PDP-12, and another for comparing two linctapes. Cool! I was able to recover the code and convert it into a more modern PAL dialect. Your listings also don't display the many literals that were generated on page zero (except sort of implicitly). In making the page zero literals line up (so that the code matches the originals), I found two locations in xmtape which are coded as TAD (16. but the code references a new literal at location 0161, instead of the previously generated one at location 0166. This is at location 0567 and again at 0666. (In the PAL assemblers, the "(" must be a "[", you can't use "." to change radix, etc. etc.) Vince From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 3 03:27:40 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 09:27:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <6ed19d1c-1510-1bd9-d893-d32da4601f6a@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Here is a program I wrote for reading/writing tape images via XModem protocol > for my PDP-12, and another for comparing two linctapes. This is fantastic, thanks :-) I hope this will help us in bootstrapping the PDP-12. At least I would like to have a tape with all the diagnostics. For now, we are at least able to load programs with the BIN loader over the serial line with currently 9600 Baud. We need to get the second line working for SerialDisk. Christian From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 10:38:54 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 11:38:54 -0400 Subject: DEQNA cab kit wiring Message-ID: <100817a7-7184-48d5-7791-94d41bbdeb87@gmail.com> Does anybody have a wiring diagram?? I have one with two broken wires! Or a photo of the BERG connector as long as the colour code is consistent :-) Thanks in advance, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From cube1 at charter.net Wed Nov 3 10:57:21 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 10:57:21 -0500 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <6ed19d1c-1510-1bd9-d893-d32da4601f6a@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <6ed19d1c-1510-1bd9-d893-d32da4601f6a@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On 11/3/2021 3:27 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Here is a program I wrote for reading/writing tape images via XModem >> protocol for my PDP-12, and another for comparing two linctapes. > > This is fantastic, thanks :-) > I hope this will help us in bootstrapping the PDP-12. At least I would > like to have a tape with all the diagnostics. > For now, we are at least able to load programs with the BIN loader over > the serial line with currently 9600 Baud. We need to get the second line > working for SerialDisk. > > Christian I have some LINCTape images with diagnostics. Let me know if you need one and I can send you the image. JRJ From amp1ron at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:06:39 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:06:39 -0400 Subject: DEQNA cab kit wiring In-Reply-To: <100817a7-7184-48d5-7791-94d41bbdeb87@gmail.com> References: <100817a7-7184-48d5-7791-94d41bbdeb87@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01d7d0cc$c98f3370$5cad9a50$@gmail.com> I don't have anything for the DEQNA, but the cable info I've seen for DELQA has the comment "this one would probably work for a DEQNA, too." The document I grabbed from http://antinode.info/dec/delqa_cable.html says: 29 December 1996. SMS. DELQA (DEQNA?) Ethernet Cabinet Kit Cable This document describes the cabinet kit for a DELQA Q-bus Ethernet interface board. The kit comprises the AUI connector and fuse assembly at the bulkhead panel, and the cable from the bulkhead panel to the DELQA board. The kit for a DEQNA was similar, and this one would probably work for a DEQNA, too. The connector at the board end of the cable is a 2x12 position, 0.1-inch pitch female. The corresponding connector on the DELQA (M7516[YM]) is a 2x10 male. The outer two pairs of hole on the female connector are unused, but the male connector accomodates the 2x12 female connector. The pin numbers shown below are for the 2x10-pin male connector on the board. The AUI connector is a DB15-S (female). The fuse on the bulkhead panel near the AUI connector is a 1.5A, 25V, slow-blow. DELQA connector, as viewed from cable end. xx 19 17 15 13 11 09 07 05 03 01 xx xx 20 18 16 14 12 10 08 06 04 02 xx ========================================= DELQA Signal Wire color AUI (D.xx) and fuse assembly 01 Power +12V Red fuse tip 02 (nc) (missing on male, plugged on female) 03 Return 12V (nc) 04 Return 12V Blk D.06 05 Ground (nc) 06 Receive + Wht D.05 07 Receive - Gra D.12 08 Ground (nc) 09 Ground (nc) 10 Transmit + Org D.03 11 Transmit - Yel D.10 12 Ground Bare D.04 13 Ground (nc) 14 Collision + Blu D.02 15 Collision - Grn D.09 16 Ground (nc) 17 (nc) (nc) 18 (nc) Tan D.07 19 (nc) Brn D.15 20 Fuse OK Vio fuse ring fuse ring --- Org --- D.13 The cable is double shielded. "Bare" is the inner shield. The outer shield is connected to the bulkhead panel near the AUI connector. As the author (dimly) recalls, the DEQNA cabinet kit cable had one fewer wire, presumably not a very important one. From cube1 at charter.net Wed Nov 3 11:13:07 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 11:13:07 -0500 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <22f181e5-45ec-d088-a22a-f79e46f5f5f5@charter.net> On 11/2/2021 9:53 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 11/2/2021 2:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> Here is a program I wrote for reading/writing tape images via XModem >> protocol for my PDP-12, and another for comparing two linctapes. > > Cool!? I was able to recover the code and convert it into a more modern > PAL dialect.? Your listings also don't display the many literals that > were generated on page zero (except sort of implicitly). > > In making the page zero literals line up (so that the code matches the > originals), I found two locations in xmtape which are coded as > ????TAD??? (16. > but the code references a new literal at location 0161, instead of the > previously generated one at location 0166.? This is at location 0567 and > again at 0666. > > (In the PAL assemblers, the "(" must be a "[", you can't use "." to > change radix, etc. etc.) > > ????Vince I probably used LAP-6 or DIAL to do the assembly - I don't recall right now. It seems you didn't notice that I included two separate programs in my previous post: XMTAPE and CMPTAP ;) In XMTAPE we see: 0215 0315 1161 0020 TAD (16. 0540 0567 1161 0020 TAD (16. 0646 0666 1161 0020 TAD (16. In CMPTAP - a separate program - we see: 0216 0336 1166 0020 TAD (16. JRJ From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:15:25 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:15:25 -0400 Subject: DEQNA cab kit wiring In-Reply-To: <000f01d7d0cc$c98f3370$5cad9a50$@gmail.com> References: <100817a7-7184-48d5-7791-94d41bbdeb87@gmail.com> <000f01d7d0cc$c98f3370$5cad9a50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21973985-4bde-3645-dd81-f991128be63e@gmail.com> Thanks for the outstandingly-quick response!? I had already buttoned up the cab and put it aside for another day. Thanks also for the link to a site I did not know about, I'll bookmark it for later browsing. Soldering iron on! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-11-03 12:06 p.m., Ron Pool via cctalk wrote: > I don't have anything for the DEQNA, but the cable info I've seen for DELQA has the comment "this one would probably work for > a DEQNA, too." The document I grabbed from http://antinode.info/dec/delqa_cable.html says: > > > 29 December 1996. SMS. > > DELQA (DEQNA?) Ethernet Cabinet Kit Cable > > This document describes the cabinet kit for a DELQA Q-bus Ethernet > interface board. The kit comprises the AUI connector and fuse assembly > at the bulkhead panel, and the cable from the bulkhead panel to the > DELQA board. > > The kit for a DEQNA was similar, and this one would probably work for > a DEQNA, too. > > The connector at the board end of the cable is a 2x12 position, > 0.1-inch pitch female. The corresponding connector on the DELQA > (M7516[YM]) is a 2x10 male. The outer two pairs of hole on the female > connector are unused, but the male connector accomodates the 2x12 female > connector. The pin numbers shown below are for the 2x10-pin male > connector on the board. The AUI connector is a DB15-S (female). The > fuse on the bulkhead panel near the AUI connector is a 1.5A, 25V, > slow-blow. > > > DELQA connector, as viewed from cable end. > > xx 19 17 15 13 11 09 07 05 03 01 xx > xx 20 18 16 14 12 10 08 06 04 02 xx > ========================================= > > DELQA Signal Wire color AUI (D.xx) and fuse assembly > > 01 Power +12V Red fuse tip > 02 (nc) (missing on male, > plugged on female) > 03 Return 12V (nc) > 04 Return 12V Blk D.06 > 05 Ground (nc) > 06 Receive + Wht D.05 > 07 Receive - Gra D.12 > 08 Ground (nc) > 09 Ground (nc) > 10 Transmit + Org D.03 > 11 Transmit - Yel D.10 > 12 Ground Bare D.04 > 13 Ground (nc) > 14 Collision + Blu D.02 > 15 Collision - Grn D.09 > 16 Ground (nc) > 17 (nc) (nc) > 18 (nc) Tan D.07 > 19 (nc) Brn D.15 > 20 Fuse OK Vio fuse ring > fuse ring --- Org --- D.13 > > > The cable is double shielded. "Bare" is the inner shield. The outer > shield is connected to the bulkhead panel near the AUI connector. > > As the author (dimly) recalls, the DEQNA cabinet kit cable had one > fewer wire, presumably not a very important one. > From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 12:02:45 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 10:02:45 -0700 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <22f181e5-45ec-d088-a22a-f79e46f5f5f5@charter.net> References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <22f181e5-45ec-d088-a22a-f79e46f5f5f5@charter.net> Message-ID: <400bed45-53d8-b8b6-aac0-0db7214de4b1@gmail.com> On 11/3/2021 9:13 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 11/2/2021 9:53 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: >> In making the page zero literals line up (so that the code matches the >> originals), I found two locations in xmtape which are coded as >> ?????TAD??? (16. >> but the code references a new literal at location 0161, instead of the >> previously generated one at location 0166.? This is at location 0567 >> and again at 0666. > I probably used LAP-6 or DIAL to do the assembly - I don't recall right > now. > > It seems you didn't notice that I included two separate programs in my > previous post:? XMTAPE and CMPTAP? ;) > > In XMTAPE we see: > > 0215? 0315 1161 0020???????? TAD (16. > 0540? 0567 1161 0020???????? TAD (16. > 0646? 0666 1161 0020???????? TAD (16. > > In CMPTAP - a separate program - we see: > > 0216? 0336 1166 0020???????? TAD (16. I had noticed the two programs, and have translated them both. The grep-like output you include does help clarify the confusion I was suffering when I wrote. I later figured out that what was actually confusing my PAL code was that I had messed up translating the instance at 0215. The PAL style assembler assembled that line as if it read TAD [16 . which says to OR 0016 and the current location counter, then make a literal, then make a TAD instruction referencing the literal. Which basically filled the slot at 0161 with rubbish, but generates the correct "1161" instruction. The two later references generated a literal elsewhere, and their code was therefore flagged as incorrect when the binary diff was done. The binary diff was against the assembled octal from column 3, and therefore is missing the literals (and thus always flags them all as different). Anyway, the short version is there was never anything wrong with your LAP/DIAL output, but I was confused for a bit. Thanks again! Vince From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 3 12:25:29 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 18:25:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <22f181e5-45ec-d088-a22a-f79e46f5f5f5@charter.net> References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <22f181e5-45ec-d088-a22a-f79e46f5f5f5@charter.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, Jay Jaeger wrote: > It seems you didn't notice that I included two separate programs in my > previous post: XMTAPE and CMPTAP ;) I did, and I have found an error ;-) 0275 0361 7300 #WDFLSH CLA CLL 0276 0362 1073 0073 TAD XMCNT [ IF COUNT==128. 0277 0363 1176 7600 TAD (0-128. 0300 0364 7450 SNA 0301 0365 5761 0361 JMP;WDFLSH [ THEN JUST RETURN The space for the return address is missing at the beginning of WDFLSH Christian From marvin at west.net Wed Nov 3 14:03:34 2021 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:03:34 -0700 Subject: The Prolok Saga (Was: Applesauce FDC Message-ID: Another thing Prolok did was produce a small 3 disk set of sample disks with the Prolok protection. Somewhere around here I still have a set of those disks. As I recall, a program was included on each disk to copy the program to be copy protected to the special disk. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 3 17:36:51 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 22:36:51 +0000 Subject: DEQNA cab kit wiring In-Reply-To: <21973985-4bde-3645-dd81-f991128be63e@gmail.com> References: <100817a7-7184-48d5-7791-94d41bbdeb87@gmail.com> <000f01d7d0cc$c98f3370$5cad9a50$@gmail.com> <21973985-4bde-3645-dd81-f991128be63e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <538c4f0e-cc50-2960-d212-484a217565f5@ntlworld.com> On 03/11/2021 16:15, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for the outstandingly-quick response!? I had already buttoned up > the cab and put it aside for another day. > > Thanks also for the link to a site I did not know about, I'll bookmark > it for later browsing. > > Soldering iron on! > The DEQNA cable details are (I think) here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01811_CKDEQNA_Qbus_Ethernet_Cable.pdf The DELQA may well be subtly different. I think I have a DELQA cab kit left and maybe I can take a photo tomorrow. I'll look for a DEQNA one too, but they may all be long gone now. (I also looked at the DEQNA UG but I couldn't find wiring details in there ... but it was a very quick look). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 18:11:01 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 19:11:01 -0400 Subject: DEQNA cab kit wiring In-Reply-To: <538c4f0e-cc50-2960-d212-484a217565f5@ntlworld.com> References: <100817a7-7184-48d5-7791-94d41bbdeb87@gmail.com> <000f01d7d0cc$c98f3370$5cad9a50$@gmail.com> <21973985-4bde-3645-dd81-f991128be63e@gmail.com> <538c4f0e-cc50-2960-d212-484a217565f5@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0a9ff6da-e19f-c35f-9eb6-a5e61c30735d@gmail.com> Thank you for that.? Another list member sent me the DELQA drawing and it appears to be the same as my DEQNA - so I have soldered the wires back on and am awaiting a chance to test it with MAINDECs cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-11-03 6:36 p.m., Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 03/11/2021 16:15, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks for the outstandingly-quick response!? I had already buttoned up >> the cab and put it aside for another day. >> >> Thanks also for the link to a site I did not know about, I'll bookmark >> it for later browsing. >> >> Soldering iron on! >> > The DEQNA cable details are (I think) here: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP01811_CKDEQNA_Qbus_Ethernet_Cable.pdf > > > The DELQA may well be subtly different. I think I have a DELQA cab kit > left and maybe I can take a photo tomorrow. I'll look for a DEQNA one > too, but they may all be long gone now. > > > (I also looked at the DEQNA UG but I couldn't find wiring details in > there ... but it was a very quick look). > > > Antonio > From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Nov 3 15:32:36 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 16:32:36 -0400 Subject: SerialDisk (Re: LINCtape images) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211103203236.GA1306889@hugin3> On Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 03:12:05PM +0100, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 2 Nov 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > Another option would be to spin the data onto LINCtape with a TD8E, then > > mount the result on the PDP-12. I think Dave is creating the images in > > the first place with either a TD8E, or possibly a custom controller. > > I think he used a custom controller. > I have several TD8E controllers, but the TU56s are wired for the TC08, and > one unit for the TC11. > The TD8E can't read LINCtapes without putting an inverter in the clock line. With it still wasn't great. Code I used depended on the databreak interface board I made for formerly online PDP-8. Being slowly reworked to get rid of the obsolete java front end and dependance on a parallel port which my new server didn't have so will be back online at some point. Currently I use a beaglebone that connects in place of the TD8E. Works better but code gets confused at times with errors. Really needs a rewrite. Also doesn't like most of the LINC-8 tapes I have. Haven't had time to figure out why. http://www.pdp8online.com/dectape/ From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 22:09:55 2021 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 22:09:55 -0500 Subject: 8" disk drive questions... References: Message-ID: Here?s a demo video of a Pertec 5.25? drive that has dual index sensors so you can simply flip a standard disk over and use both sides: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UCcONLTsuQ&t=32s Mike From cube1 at charter.net Thu Nov 4 11:13:55 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 11:13:55 -0500 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: <75313981-6534-85af-7913-ccee8a22e71b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <22f181e5-45ec-d088-a22a-f79e46f5f5f5@charter.net> Message-ID: On 11/3/2021 12:25 PM, Christian Corti via cctech wrote: > On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> It seems you didn't notice that I included two separate programs in my >> previous post:? XMTAPE and CMPTAP? ;) > > I did, and I have found an error ;-) > > 0275? 0361 7300????? #WDFLSH CLA CLL > 0276? 0362 1073 0073???????? TAD XMCNT?? [ IF COUNT==128. > 0277? 0363 1176 7600???????? TAD (0-128. > 0300? 0364 7450????????????? SNA > 0301? 0365 5761 0361???????? JMP;WDFLSH? [ THEN JUST RETURN > > The space for the return address is missing at the beginning of WDFLSH > > Christian Yes, in XMTAPE it looks like 0275 0361 7300 #WDFLSH CLA CLL It should read #WDFLSH 0 CLA CLL I *thought* I had tested it. ;) But, as it turns out, WDFLSH is only called from one place, and is only called when the accumulator is 0 (and probably the link bit is zero two), so while this is definitely an error in coding, at first blush I don't think it affects operation of the program. JRJ From amp1ron at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 17:06:23 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (amp1ron at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:06:23 -0400 Subject: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? In-Reply-To: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> References: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004001d7d1c8$352c9ea0$9f85dbe0$@gmail.com> > On that subject, can anyone recommend a source for the thermal paper used in the Silent? I just use thermal fax paper that comes in rolls that are 8.5" wide and (usually) 98' long. 100' or shorter rolls fit fine inside the Silent 700 terminals. That paper is still being made and is widely available from lots of places like Amazon and Staples. I usually buy opened boxes off of eBay where the box is cheap and only 5 out of 6 roll are left in the original box. But definitely first check Amazon and local office supply stores to make sure you don't pay more for a shipped partial box from eBay than you would for a full box at retail prices. -- Ron From djg at pdp8online.com Thu Nov 4 18:34:26 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:34:26 -0400 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211104233426.GA1452095@hugin3> On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 10:57:21AM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > I have some LINCTape images with diagnostics. Let me know if you need one > and I can send you the image. > I can add them to my browsble archive if you wish. http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml From djg at pdp8online.com Thu Nov 4 19:46:45 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:46:45 -0400 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211105004645.GA1458904@hugin3> On Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 07:53:42PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > On 11/2/2021 2:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > Here is a program I wrote for reading/writing tape images via XModem > > protocol for my PDP-12, and another for comparing two linctapes. > > Cool! I was able to recover the code and convert it into a more modern PAL > dialect. Your listings also don't display the many literals that were > generated on page zero (except sort of implicitly). > Did you put them on your site? From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 21:00:23 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:00:23 -0700 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <20211105004645.GA1458904@hugin3> References: <20211105004645.GA1458904@hugin3> Message-ID: On 11/4/2021 5:46 PM, David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > On Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 07:53:42PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> On 11/2/2021 2:25 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >>> Here is a program I wrote for reading/writing tape images via XModem >>> protocol for my PDP-12, and another for comparing two linctapes. >> >> Cool! I was able to recover the code and convert it into a more modern PAL >> dialect. Your listings also don't display the many literals that were >> generated on page zero (except sort of implicitly). > > Did you put them on your site? Probably not a bad idea. Here's a directory for my work on Jay's stuff, and also a snapshot of the SerialDisk stuff configured for PDP-12 and LINCtape: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/pdp8/src/pdp12/ It's not really a web page, but it is something you can fetch (and update) with SVN, which is much easier. Vince From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 5 04:55:38 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:55:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <20211104233426.GA1452095@hugin3> References: <20211104233426.GA1452095@hugin3> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, David Gesswein wrote: > On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 10:57:21AM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> I have some LINCTape images with diagnostics. Let me know if you need one >> and I can send you the image. >> > I can add them to my browsble archive if you wish. > http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml Thanks to you all, I've been able to do the first step in recreating LINCtapes. I have successfully extracted the MARK12 binary [1] from the dial.linc tape image and convert it into a BN that can be loaded with the BINLDR. We testet it yesterday and guess what, we could mark new LINCtapes on our PDP-12 without errors. Next step is bringing up SerialDisk. Christian [1] ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pdp12/MARK12.BN From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Nov 5 09:07:33 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:07:33 -0400 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: <20211104233426.GA1452095@hugin3> Message-ID: Speaking of which I have a couple of boxes of Linctapes from a pdp12 system that was used in a college. Is there any value in getting the data off them? C On 11/5/2021 5:55 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, David Gesswein wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 10:57:21AM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> >>> I have some LINCTape images with diagnostics.? Let me know if you >>> need one >>> and I can send you the image. >>> >> I can add them to my browsble archive if you wish. >> http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml > > Thanks to you all, I've been able to do the first step in recreating > LINCtapes. I have successfully extracted the MARK12 binary [1] from the > dial.linc tape image and convert it into a BN that can be loaded with > the BINLDR. We testet it yesterday and guess what, we could mark new > LINCtapes on our PDP-12 without errors. > Next step is bringing up SerialDisk. > > Christian > > [1] > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pdp12/MARK12.BN From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 11:29:17 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 09:29:17 -0700 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: <20211104233426.GA1452095@hugin3> Message-ID: On 11/5/2021 7:07 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of which I have a couple of boxes of Linctapes from a pdp12 > system that was used in a college. Is there any value in getting the > data off them? I'd say yes :-). It's a bit of a pain to do the imaging, but storing the images has gotten quite affordable. If you've got a working pdp12 you could try to curate the content, but that will likely be hard to do well. Just saving the content is easier. I maintain an archive of DEC software for the PDP8 and PDP12. So far, nearly every resource I've tapped into helps fill in something that was missing. Even so, the coverage is still sitting at less than half the known titles after quite a bit of hunting. Vince From ben at listenfaster.com Fri Nov 5 14:46:07 2021 From: ben at listenfaster.com (Ben McAllister) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:46:07 -0700 Subject: Zorba owners/Help diagnosing display issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the advice - I have the schematic and am going to embark on the path you mention. Appreciate it. I?ll be posting videos of my progress on YT, provided I make progress. :) On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 4:51 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > I suppose the first thing you need is the schematics for the Zorba, anyone > have this? > > Do you have a volt meter with an ESR setting? There are caps in the > display controller board, but not too many that often are used to control > the wobble and hotiz/vert behind the potentiometers. Start with an > inspection of these caps. You should test them and replace the bad ones. > Also test caps near the voltage regulators and coming from the main power > connector. It's a bit of a shotgun approach, but if you test after each > change you might get lucky and the display will stabilize without having to > make too many repairs. You could stop at that point until something > happens again. Keep a record of which caps you replaced. It could be > something other than a cap. voltage regulators go too, but as you > describe the symptoms I would bet there is a bad cap in the display > controller board. > > If the system does not work at all it could be a power supply problem. > > Bill > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:22 PM Ben McAllister via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello from Seattle everyone, >> >> I'm new to the list. I recently bought a Zorba on Ebay, which was my first >> machine as a kid back in 1985, dialing into BBSs and learning assembly and >> basic. I put a lot of hours in on this machine and was very excited to >> acquire one, even though the sale was 'as is'. I have some issues to >> address, beginning with perhaps a faulty component on the video board >> driving the crt. >> >> While I'm an experienced programmer and have some rudimentary skills with >> electronics, I'm going to be in bootcamp troubleshooting this board. I >> have >> some help in my network of friends, but wanted to throw this out to the >> list. Are there any Zorba owners who would be willing to trade >> notes/advice with me on their experiences troubleshooting hardware issues >> (or anyone else out there, for that matter :) )? Have you used the >> composite video out to feed another monitor? >> >> Detail on my first issue: the display appears to need the kind of >> stabilization I _thought_ the horizontal and vertical hold adjustments >> would provide, but it's not entirely stable. I have tried the composite >> out, feeding it to a cheap composite->HDMI adapter, but that signal looks >> like a blank screen in need of vert/horiz hold adjusting. Before I go >> much >> further, I was hoping someone out there might be able to verify their use >> of the composite out to an external display. I haven't found any detail on >> what that signal should look like, other than it's 'composite' - maybe >> someone with more expertise can tell me what assumptions I can make about >> a >> composite signal. >> >> Thanks for reading that long message - and glad to be a new member of the >> list. >> Ben >> > -- -- Ben McAllister | listenfaster.com | @listenfaster | theguitarcult.com | tuktuband.com | c: 206.849.3183 From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 22:13:48 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 22:13:48 -0500 Subject: TI-99/4a Monitor power cord References: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5.ref@DS1821> Message-ID: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5@DS1821> I have a TI monitor that has a power cord that is becoming sticky and gummy and I'm looking at what to do with it. I figure the best solution is to probably see about replacing it with a new one. Has anyone ever looked at this monitor and the cord connection? Have any info on it? How difficult it might be to replace it? I haven't been able to find any doc or anything searching online but may just not be using the right keywords. Any other suggestions on dealing with the cord besides replacing it? Wrap it in something I suppose... Thanks in advance. David Williams www.trailingedge.com (http://www.trailingedge.com) From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Nov 5 17:36:09 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:36:09 -0400 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211105223609.GA1565069@hugin3> On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:07:33AM -0400, Chris Zach wrote: > Speaking of which I have a couple of boxes of Linctapes from a pdp12 system > that was used in a college. Is there any value in getting the data off them? > If you know they are all CS101 projects then may not be worth the time but I mostly just read the tapes to be sure. Does cause my archive to have a lot of marginal stuff to search through but hopefully the search will help find what you are looking for. Not everybody agrees on what is uninteresting. From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Nov 5 17:39:19 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:39:19 -0400 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211105223919.GB1565069@hugin3> On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:55:38AM +0100, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, David Gesswein wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 10:57:21AM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > > > > I have some LINCTape images with diagnostics. Let me know if you need one > > > and I can send you the image. > > > > > I can add them to my browsble archive if you wish. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml > > Thanks to you all, I've been able to do the first step in recreating > LINCtapes. I have successfully extracted the MARK12 binary [1] from the > dial.linc tape image and convert it into a BN that can be loaded with the > BINLDR. We testet it yesterday and guess what, we could mark new LINCtapes > on our PDP-12 without errors. > Good to hear your machine it working. Looks like your .BN isn't my sites BIN loader conversion. Did you try mine and it didn't work or you had already done your own before I added it? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Nov 5 18:41:12 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:41:12 -0400 Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <20211105223609.GA1565069@hugin3> References: <20211105223609.GA1565069@hugin3> Message-ID: <97592988-26bf-ce22-636b-a825bcf699d6@alembic.crystel.com> Some of it was research, the 12 had OSes like Dial and OS8V3D. Next time we get together I'll give you a couple to check as I don't have a DECTape transport anymore (I should, but I don't) On 11/5/2021 6:36 PM, David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:07:33AM -0400, Chris Zach wrote: >> Speaking of which I have a couple of boxes of Linctapes from a pdp12 system >> that was used in a college. Is there any value in getting the data off them? >> > If you know they are all CS101 projects then may not be worth the time > but I mostly just read the tapes to be sure. Does cause my archive to have > a lot of marginal stuff to search through but hopefully the search will help > find what you are looking for. Not everybody agrees on what is uninteresting. > From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Nov 6 12:24:18 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:24:18 -0400 Subject: TI-99/4a Monitor power cord In-Reply-To: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5@DS1821> References: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5@DS1821> Message-ID: <20211106172418.GA1708537@hugin3> On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:13:48PM -0500, David Williams wrote: > I have a TI monitor that has a power cord that is becoming sticky and gummy > and I'm looking at what to do with it. > Any other suggestions on dealing with the cord besides replacing it? > Once the plastic starts breaking down I haven't found anything permanent. Some are breaking down slow enough that cleaning lasts for a couple years. I go though my various cleaners/solvents until I get to one strong enough to clean it up without too much damage. The ones for removing gummy adhesive remover seem to work OK. A mild abrasive cleaning pad or cleaner can also help since sometimes you need to remove the surface plastic layer to get to more stable plastic. Aggressive solvents will also do that but I have trouble controlling them. Not familiar with 99/4a monitors to comment on replacing cord. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 6 13:10:29 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 11:10:29 -0700 Subject: TI-99/4a Monitor power cord In-Reply-To: <20211106172418.GA1708537@hugin3> References: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5@DS1821> <20211106172418.GA1708537@hugin3> Message-ID: <09f73790-7365-3a65-f31b-b7f27c922142@sydex.com> On 11/6/21 10:24 AM, David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:13:48PM -0500, David Williams wrote: >> I have a TI monitor that has a power cord that is becoming sticky and gummy >> and I'm looking at what to do with it. >> Any other suggestions on dealing with the cord besides replacing it? >> > Once the plastic starts breaking down I haven't found anything permanent. > Some are breaking down slow enough that cleaning lasts for a couple years. > I go though my various cleaners/solvents until I get to one strong enough to > clean it up without too much damage. The ones for removing gummy adhesive > remover seem to work OK. A mild abrasive cleaning pad or cleaner can also help > since sometimes you need to remove the surface plastic layer to get to more > stable plastic. Aggressive solvents will also do that but I have trouble > controlling them. Heptane (sold under the name "Bestine") works wel and won't affect plastics. Bestine is mostly known to stamp collector s who use it to remove adhesive from stamps without damaging them. Bestine is also useful for removing really stubborn deposits from tape and disk heads. You can expect that eventually, the jacket on the cord will begin cracking as the loss of plasticizer progresses. A somewhat more pragmatic approach, short of replacement, is to encase the the cord in split wire loom. Looks a little clumsy, but will keep the sticky stuff from fouling anything else. FWIW Chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 13:54:57 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:54:57 -0500 Subject: TI-99/4a Monitor power cord In-Reply-To: <09f73790-7365-3a65-f31b-b7f27c922142@sydex.com> References: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5@DS1821> <20211106172418.GA1708537@hugin3> <09f73790-7365-3a65-f31b-b7f27c922142@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2c7ab0c6-79f5-1065-8201-84c39df053a6@yahoo.com> On 11/6/2021 1:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Heptane (sold under the name "Bestine") works wel and won't affect > plastics. Bestine is mostly known to stamp collector s who use it to > remove adhesive from stamps without damaging them. Bestine is also > useful for removing really stubborn deposits from tape and disk heads. > > You can expect that eventually, the jacket on the cord will begin > cracking as the loss of plasticizer progresses. > > A somewhat more pragmatic approach, short of replacement, is to encase > the the cord in split wire loom. Looks a little clumsy, but will keep > the sticky stuff from fouling anything else. Yeah I figured cleaning of one sort or another would only delay the inevitable. I can open it up and look at the cord attachment but thought I'd see if anyone knew or had anything showing it before I went to that trouble. My other thought was I have various cable wrap that I could encase it in as a quick easy way to deal with it. Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 13:47:44 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 14:47:44 -0400 Subject: memory assignment jumpers MM8EJ Message-ID: I am unable to confirm for sure the memory assignment process for I know without a doubt how to set their page assignments. I can guess but that's dangerous and inefficient. I want to test an unknown core stack, so I need to know which RAM space I am testing. I have a PDP 8e core stack with the following: H121 8x12 core G233E G111C Anyone know the process of assigning the RAM space on the boards? Bill From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 14:34:33 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 12:34:33 -0700 Subject: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? In-Reply-To: <004001d7d1c8$352c9ea0$9f85dbe0$@gmail.com> References: <004001d7d1c8$352c9ea0$9f85dbe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78B38F38-3A49-4285-B5A6-B24F00530022@gmail.com> Yes. Doh. 8-1/2 inch rolls of thermal Fax paper on ?? core. Sold at Staples. $3 a roll. Works like a charm. Marc > On Nov 4, 2021, at 3:06 PM, Ron Pool via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> >> On that subject, can anyone recommend a source for the thermal paper used in the Silent? > > I just use thermal fax paper that comes in rolls that are 8.5" wide and (usually) 98' long. 100' or shorter rolls fit fine inside the Silent 700 terminals. That paper is still being made and is widely available from lots of places like Amazon and Staples. I usually buy opened boxes off of eBay where the box is cheap and only 5 out of 6 roll are left in the original box. But definitely first check Amazon and local office supply stores to make sure you don't pay more for a shipped partial box from eBay than you would for a full box at retail prices. > > -- Ron > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Sat Nov 6 15:00:20 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 15:00:20 -0500 Subject: memory assignment jumpers MM8EJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This should help: On the G104 board there are some jumpers EMA0, EMA1 and EMA2.? These correspond to the the bits of the extended address of the board. A jumper inserted means 0 and a jumper removed means a 1. EMA??? 0? ?? 1 ???? 2 ? 0????? In???? In???? In ? 1????? In???? In???? Out ? 2????? In?? ? Out? In ? 3????? In?? ? Out? Out ? 4 ? ?? Out? In???? In ? 5????? Out? In???? Out ?? 6???? Out? Out? In ?? 7??? Out?? Out? Out Please note that the MM89EJ is an 8K memory board and will take up two memory fields, the one selected and the one selected plus 1 (i.e.? if the jumpers are in out in, the memory will be on fields (EMA) 2 and 3). This information can be found on page 2-6 of the PDP-8/e PDP8/f & pdp-8/m Processor Maintenance Manual Volume 1: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/DEC-8E-HMM1A-D-D_PDP-8e_Maintenance_Manual_Volume_1_Processor_Sep73.pdf Schematics: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/MM8-EJ_Engineering_Drawings_May73.pdf https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8prints/mm8e.pdf https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8prints/mm8e-b.pdf https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8prints/mm8ej.pdf On 11/6/2021 1:47 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I am unable to confirm for sure the memory assignment process for I know > without a doubt how to set their page assignments. I can guess but that's > dangerous and inefficient. I want to test an unknown core stack, so I need > to know which RAM space I am testing. > > I have a PDP 8e core stack with the following: > H121 8x12 core > G233E > G111C > > Anyone know the process of assigning the RAM space on the boards? > > Bill From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Sat Nov 6 15:00:20 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 15:00:20 -0500 Subject: memory assignment jumpers MM8EJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This should help: On the G104 board there are some jumpers EMA0, EMA1 and EMA2.? These correspond to the the bits of the extended address of the board. A jumper inserted means 0 and a jumper removed means a 1. EMA??? 0? ?? 1 ???? 2 ? 0????? In???? In???? In ? 1????? In???? In???? Out ? 2????? In?? ? Out? In ? 3????? In?? ? Out? Out ? 4 ? ?? Out? In???? In ? 5????? Out? In???? Out ?? 6???? Out? Out? In ?? 7??? Out?? Out? Out Please note that the MM89EJ is an 8K memory board and will take up two memory fields, the one selected and the one selected plus 1 (i.e.? if the jumpers are in out in, the memory will be on fields (EMA) 2 and 3). This information can be found on page 2-6 of the PDP-8/e PDP8/f & pdp-8/m Processor Maintenance Manual Volume 1: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/DEC-8E-HMM1A-D-D_PDP-8e_Maintenance_Manual_Volume_1_Processor_Sep73.pdf Schematics: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/MM8-EJ_Engineering_Drawings_May73.pdf https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8prints/mm8e.pdf https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8prints/mm8e-b.pdf https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8prints/mm8ej.pdf On 11/6/2021 1:47 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I am unable to confirm for sure the memory assignment process for I know > without a doubt how to set their page assignments. I can guess but that's > dangerous and inefficient. I want to test an unknown core stack, so I need > to know which RAM space I am testing. > > I have a PDP 8e core stack with the following: > H121 8x12 core > G233E > G111C > > Anyone know the process of assigning the RAM space on the boards? > > Bill From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Nov 6 16:14:14 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 17:14:14 -0400 Subject: TI-99/4a Monitor power cord In-Reply-To: <2c7ab0c6-79f5-1065-8201-84c39df053a6@yahoo.com> References: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5@DS1821> <20211106172418.GA1708537@hugin3> <09f73790-7365-3a65-f31b-b7f27c922142@sydex.com> <2c7ab0c6-79f5-1065-8201-84c39df053a6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20211106171414.4929c8c3@dragonsweb.org> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:54:57 -0500 David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > Yeah I figured cleaning of one sort or another would only delay the > inevitable. I can open it up and look at the cord attachment but > thought I'd see if anyone knew or had anything showing it before I > went to that trouble. My other thought was I have various cable wrap > that I could encase it in as a quick easy way to deal with it. Never had one of these to take apart and don't see a service manual right off, but I'm assuming you have the 10" PHA4100 model, so the connection will likely be whatever Matsushita/Panasonic used in TV's that era. There was a 13" model PHA4000 that is a modified Zenith TV, but those were pretty uncommon, only sold with the /4 (not 4A) until TI got FCC approval for their RF modulator, which allowed most of us to use a standard TV. The 4100 has a cleaner picture, though. jbdigriz From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 16:27:22 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 16:27:22 -0500 Subject: TI-99/4a Monitor power cord In-Reply-To: <20211106171414.4929c8c3@dragonsweb.org> References: <07d48fce-905d-4de3-b39d-f89ec2fc5ed5@DS1821> <20211106172418.GA1708537@hugin3> <09f73790-7365-3a65-f31b-b7f27c922142@sydex.com> <2c7ab0c6-79f5-1065-8201-84c39df053a6@yahoo.com> <20211106171414.4929c8c3@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <33974e59-0361-a7bf-7776-e4bbf987a282@yahoo.com> On 11/6/2021 4:14 PM, James B DiGriz wrote: > Never had one of these to take apart and don't see a service manual > right off, but I'm assuming you have the 10" PHA4100 model, so the > connection will likely be whatever Matsushita/Panasonic used in TV's > that era. There was a 13" model PHA4000 that is a modified Zenith TV, > but those were pretty uncommon, only sold with the /4 (not 4A) until TI > got FCC approval for their RF modulator, which allowed most of us to > use a standard TV. The 4100 has a cleaner picture, though. I have both a TI one and a Panasonic one, both identical short of the badge and case color and both have the gummy/sticky power cord. The TI one isn't here with me at the moment but the Panasonic one is marked model CT-160. Find them for sale online but not the manual yet. Starting to lean towards just using the mesh cable wrap I have on it. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 8 05:09:26 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:09:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: LINCtape images In-Reply-To: <20211105223919.GB1565069@hugin3> References: <20211105223919.GB1565069@hugin3> Message-ID: <7da806f-d46d-6ad3-46c0-67998a384348@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021, David Gesswein wrote: > Looks like your .BN isn't my sites BIN loader conversion. Did you try mine > and it didn't work or you had already done your own before I added it? I made my own extraction from the image, but it is the same as yours. I had written my own little program just to learn understand the format of a DIAL tape and the data from your site. Christian From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 11:22:26 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 09:22:26 -0800 Subject: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? In-Reply-To: <004701d7cdb0$6a42cd60$3ec86820$@gmail.com> References: <202301d7cd3f$3ce19750$b6a4c5f0$@gmail.com> <003f01d7cdad$72a521e0$57ef65a0$@gmail.com> <004701d7cdb0$6a42cd60$3ec86820$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0bf401d7d4c5$343b8240$9cb286c0$@gmail.com> On my 703 the label says switch 4 unused, and it does nothing when I try it. Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ron Pool > via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 10:06 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? > > I should have looked closer at the photos of the Silent 700/1200 I just > bought. There's a very clear auction photo that shows DIP switch 4 does > switch between "300 baud" and "1200 baud". Maybe it's the same for Marc's > 1200 bps model 703. > > Silent 700/1200 auction (ended): > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lQ8AAOSwnLtglDa7/s-l1600.jpg > > Auction photo of 700/1200 DIP switch legend and CMD key options: > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lQ8AAOSwnLtglDa7/s-l1600.jpg > From technoid6502 at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 17:08:20 2021 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 18:08:20 -0500 Subject: Electronika MC 0511 Message-ID: I just received my UKNC from what was Czechoslovakia. Made in 1990 it was dirty but otherwise in good shape. I need to install an alternate power supply as the Soviet one requires 220volts and has a wierd plug. Anyone know where one can find a disk interface for this machine? I have such for several other vintage systems, which use CF cards, as with my Atari 8-bits and Atari ST. I gather there was a floppyface for the thing but that it is pretty rare. Any help would be appreciated. RSX11 awaits this micro-PDP compatible. Best, Jeff From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 21:12:16 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 19:12:16 -0800 Subject: For Sale, Seattle area: Data General MV/7800 + drives, docs Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm doing a bit of cleanup to free up some space and I'd like to try to find a new home for my MV/7800. It's a really cool system that I just haven't had time to spend a lot of time with, and unfortunately it seems unlikely I will anytime soon. The power supply in the CPU has been repaired. There are two large 5236 drives (I believe they have 14" platters, and they weigh about 150lbs apiece) as well, unfortunately I do not have the cabling for them but I don't think it'll be too hard to recreate it. The system appears to be complete with CPU, memory, and disk/tape controllers but apart from getting the power supply going I haven't done anything else to restore it. If anyone's interested, drop me a line. I'd much prefer local pickup but I could be convinced to put this stuff on a pallet if you want to arrange freighting. Thanks, Josh From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 02:51:52 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 09:51:52 +0100 Subject: Electronika MC 0511 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 at 00:08, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > I just received my UKNC from what was Czechoslovakia. Made in 1990 it > was dirty but otherwise in good shape. I need to install an alternate > power supply as the Soviet one requires 220volts and has a wierd plug. > > Anyone know where one can find a disk interface for this machine? I > have such for several other vintage systems, which use CF cards, as > with my Atari 8-bits and Atari ST. > > I gather there was a floppyface for the thing but that it is pretty > rare. Any help would be appreciated. RSX11 awaits this micro-PDP > compatible. That's rather cool -- I didn't know about that one. I only knew the BK01, an interesting box; I like the glimpse of what the PDP-11 could have been had DEC decided to do home computers. I am in what was Czechoslovakia myself, so if you can give me some keywords to search for, I am happy to look and ship at cost if it'll help. (My Czech is rubbish, though. It's an almost absurdly difficult and complicated language.) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 17:59:35 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:59:35 -0700 Subject: Overclocked TI Silent 703 at 1200 bauds? In-Reply-To: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> References: <5D325F0A-6568-41B3-8DD8-6862226BCB57@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 8:21 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Yes, I have ruined a few printouts using the isopropanol method ;-) . On > that subject, can anyone recommend a source for the thermal paper used in > the Silent? > I was able to get suitable thermal paper at Office Max or Office Depot, I forgot which. I had to ask an employee for "thermal fax paper". From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Nov 10 11:08:07 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:08:07 -0600 Subject: Rk05 to RK8E cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59b5c2e7-5007-6cc9-0f49-3def74173047@12bitsbest.com> This weekend I'm picking up an RK05 drive that does not have the M993 to 40 pin berg cables and may not have the M930 terminator. I know that Roland designed a cable kit for it. Does anyone have a spare M993 (preferably the C model with the buffer chip) or one of Roland's kits for sale or trade? Also, in case I need it, does anyone have a spare M930 terminator board? You can contact me through here or at bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com. Thanks, Mike From useddec at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 03:20:22 2021 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 03:20:22 -0600 Subject: Rk05 to RK8E cables In-Reply-To: <59b5c2e7-5007-6cc9-0f49-3def74173047@12bitsbest.com> References: <59b5c2e7-5007-6cc9-0f49-3def74173047@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, I have M930s, but not sure about any M933s. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 11:08 AM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > This weekend I'm picking up an RK05 drive that does not have the M993 to > 40 pin berg cables and may not have the M930 terminator. > > I know that Roland designed a cable kit for it. > > Does anyone have a spare M993 (preferably the C model with the buffer > chip) or one of Roland's kits for sale or trade? > > Also, in case I need it, does anyone have a spare M930 terminator board? > > You can contact me through here or at bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com. > > Thanks, > > Mike > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 11 12:25:33 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:25:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2021, pleasefixthisbrick via cctech wrote: > I seem to have the only one in America, and I am trying to find documentation > on it.? I have already backed up ROM's and it's custom CP/M build.?? I am > looking for in depth documentation that I can reference to get this machine > functioning and accessible online.? Hoping to set up a BBS on it. It certainly didn't have market penetration in USA! I did once have, and implemented in XenoCopy, a sample disk from an Okidata if800 model 20, which seemed to be the same as a BMC if800 model 20 (if one more alternate name might help you find information). I hadn't heard the Sumicom badging. I also had a disk for Oki (don't know if same model) with the Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, instead of CP/M. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wpointon at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 20:18:22 2021 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (xcvb) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 02:18:22 +0000 Subject: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 Message-ID: <9838558c-77c8-5bf2-1e5d-1d994b3d6ce8@earthlink.net> very quiet today on here -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin , General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Nov 11, 2021 1:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 ? On Thu, 11 Nov 2021, pleasefixthisbrick via cctech wrote: > I seem to have the only one in America, and I am trying to find documentation > on it.? I have already backed up ROM's and it's custom CP/M build.?? I am > looking for in depth documentation that I can reference to get this machine > functioning and accessible online.? Hoping to set up a BBS on it. ? It certainly didn't have market penetration in USA! I did once have, and implemented in XenoCopy, a sample disk from an Okidata if800 model 20, which seemed to be the same as a BMC if800 model 20 (if one more alternate name might help you find information). I hadn't heard the Sumicom badging. ? I also had a disk for Oki (don't know if same model) with the Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, instead of CP/M. ? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ? From wpointon at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 20:22:49 2021 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (xcvb) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 02:22:49 +0000 Subject: Fw: Re: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 Message-ID: <33cb07a2-637c-ef58-a662-1a3d7014a39e@earthlink.net> ? -----Forwarded Message----- From: xcvb Sent: Nov 12, 2021 9:18 PM To: Fred Cisin , General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 ? very quiet today on here -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin , General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Nov 11, 2021 1:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 ? On Thu, 11 Nov 2021, pleasefixthisbrick via cctech wrote: > I seem to have the only one in America, and I am trying to find documentation > on it.? I have already backed up ROM's and it's custom CP/M build.?? I am > looking for in depth documentation that I can reference to get this machine > functioning and accessible online.? Hoping to set up a BBS on it. ? It certainly didn't have market penetration in USA! I did once have, and implemented in XenoCopy, a sample disk from an Okidata if800 model 20, which seemed to be the same as a BMC if800 model 20 (if one more alternate name might help you find information). I hadn't heard the Sumicom badging. ? I also had a disk for Oki (don't know if same model) with the Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, instead of CP/M. ? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ? ? ? From danieldsnyder at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 13:04:34 2021 From: danieldsnyder at gmail.com (dsnyder) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 14:04:34 -0500 Subject: Free DEC stuff, local pickup only Message-ID: The remains of my DEC computer lab. Need to have removed by christmas https://photos.app.goo.gl/b7QL7fNY14WJ7TPDA Contact me at danieldsnyder-----at----gmail-----.----com Located in western PA near Pittsburgh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 16 09:15:03 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:15:03 -0500 Subject: COGNOS box Message-ID: <8a2ef1a1-7b41-d29b-5da2-92414e1a6814@telegraphics.com.au> Hi all Trying to get rid of some boxes of ephemera, including this one: https://imgur.com/a/dm1vR Note that the software media is not included. Location: Toronto Canada --Toby From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Nov 16 10:01:23 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 11:01:23 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 Message-ID: In my pile of DEC computer stuff I have a DEC qbus IBV11 IEEE-488 controller board (M7954) with cable (BN11-A) that connects to the GPIB bus. It would be interesting to try this out, but I don't have the DEC 'Instrument Bus Subroutines' that work under RT-11.? Does anyone have this package?? Or know where it can be found? Doug From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Nov 16 10:56:09 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:56:09 +0000 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should have them in my MINC-23 stuff. If you can figure out which distribution diskette they're on, I can make you an image or copy. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, November 16th, 2021 at 11:01, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > In my pile of DEC computer stuff I have a DEC qbus IBV11 IEEE-488 > > controller board (M7954) with cable (BN11-A) that connects to the GPIB bus. > > It would be interesting to try this out, but I don't have the DEC > > 'Instrument Bus Subroutines' that work under RT-11.? Does anyone have > > this package?? Or know where it can be found? > > Doug From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Nov 16 11:22:42 2021 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:22:42 +0000 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87k0h8ggm5.fsf@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> > In my pile of DEC computer stuff I have a DEC qbus IBV11 IEEE-488 > controller board (M7954) with cable (BN11-A) that connects to the GPIB bus. > > It would be interesting to try this out, but I don't have the DEC > 'Instrument Bus Subroutines' that work under RT-11. Does anyone have > this package? Or know where it can be found? > > Doug I recently wrote a driver for the IBV11 card under 2.11BSD. I have it talking to my scope and logic analyser without issue. https://github.com/AaronJackson/2.11BSD/pull/1/files Not the cleanest code but my first try at writing a driver :-) Cheers, Aaron From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Nov 16 11:23:15 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 12:23:15 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm going by the 'Instrument Bus Subroutines Programmer's Reference Manual' that is on bitsavers. [/pdf/dec/pdp11/minc]? In section 4, page 4-1 it seems to imply that there are 6 files: IBLIB.OBJ IBSVER.FOR IBMNC.SYS IBNMNC.SYS IBXMNC.SYS IBXNMC.SYS I think that's it.? *.OBJ is a library to link to, *.FOR is a test program, *.SYS are device drivers for MINC and ordinary PDP-11 SJ, FB and XM monitors.? It probably is on it's own disk (RX01 RX02?) Doug On 11/16/2021 11:56 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > I should have them in my MINC-23 stuff. If you can figure out which distribution diskette they're on, I can make you an image or copy. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Tuesday, November 16th, 2021 at 11:01, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> In my pile of DEC computer stuff I have a DEC qbus IBV11 IEEE-488 >> >> controller board (M7954) with cable (BN11-A) that connects to the GPIB bus. >> >> It would be interesting to try this out, but I don't have the DEC >> >> 'Instrument Bus Subroutines' that work under RT-11.? Does anyone have >> >> this package?? Or know where it can be found? >> >> Doug From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Nov 16 11:30:45 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:30:45 -0800 Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 Message-ID: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> It looks like the Intel 4004 turned 50 yesterday. Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 16 11:50:51 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 12:50:51 -0500 Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 In-Reply-To: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> References: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <26363CD5-BEC4-4930-81C2-4F96E85985FC@comcast.net> The Wall St. Journal had a good essay about that, by Andy Kessler. This link should get you there: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-chip-that-changed-the-world-microprocessor-computing-transistor-breakthrough-intel-11636903999?st=nm37ik74mq9vp51&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink The subtitle is "Most of the wealth created since 1971 is a result of Intel?s 4004 microprocessor" which seems extravagant until you read his arguments. I still remember the 4004-based personal computer a college classmate of mine designed and built in 1974. It was a large (DEC Unibus hex module sized) wire wrap board with about 100 chips on it. And it worked. Slowly, but it could do useful programs. paul > On Nov 16, 2021, at 12:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like the Intel 4004 turned 50 yesterday. > > Zane > > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Nov 16 11:52:40 2021 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 12:52:40 -0500 Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 In-Reply-To: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> References: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <479C2F0D-0870-4813-981E-C231D1B5D811@verizon.net> The WSJ had an article on it, but oddly, they left out the 8080/8085 from the timeline discussion. ?On 11/16/21, 12:30 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Zane Healy via cctalk" wrote: It looks like the Intel 4004 turned 50 yesterday. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 12:25:22 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:25:22 -0800 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:23 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I'm going by the 'Instrument Bus Subroutines Programmer's Reference > Manual' that is on bitsavers. [/pdf/dec/pdp11/minc] In section 4, page > 4-1 it seems to imply that there are 6 files: > > IBLIB.OBJ > IBSVER.FOR > IBMNC.SYS > IBNMNC.SYS > IBXMNC.SYS > IBXNMC.SYS > > I think that's it. *.OBJ is a library to link to, *.FOR is a test > program, *.SYS are device drivers for MINC and ordinary PDP-11 SJ, FB > and XM monitors. It probably is on it's own disk (RX01 RX02?) > > Doug I have an original DEC RX01 floppy labeled: AS-H300E-BC INSTMT BUS SUB V2.1 BIN RX1 (c) 1983 Digital Equipment Corporation I have an image I created from that floppy which I can mount using PUTR, and then access the files on the floppy image: C:\PUTR>PUTR PUTR V2.01 Copyright (C) 1995-2001 by John Wilson . All rights reserved. See www.dbit.com for other DEC-related software. COPY mode is ASCII, SET COPY BINARY to change (C:\PUTR)>MOUNT RX0: AS-H300E.IMG /RONLY /RX01 (C:\PUTR)>DIR RX0: Volume in drive RX0 is RT11A Directory of RX0:\*.* 16-Nov-2021 IB .MAC 76 27-Mar-1982 IBBASE.MAC 8 27-Mar-1982 IBCBLK.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 IBCMD .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBDCL .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBDEV .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBERMF.MAC 5 27-Mar-1982 IBERR .MAC 4 27-Mar-1982 IBERRF.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBERSH.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 IBGET .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBGTL .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBIFC .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBINIT.MAC 6 27-Mar-1982 IBLEGL.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBLLO .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBLNR .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBLSN .MAC 5 27-Mar-1982 IBPPD .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBPPE .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBPPL .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBPPU .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBRCVS.MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBRDA .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBRECV.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 IBREMO.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBREN .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBSDC .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBSEND.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 IBSPL .MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 IBSRQ .MAC 5 27-Mar-1982 IBSRQF.MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBSTER.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBSTS .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBTERM.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBTIMO.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBTLK .MAC 4 27-Mar-1982 IBUNIT.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBUNL .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBUNT .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 IBWAIT.MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 IBXFER.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 IB .ASM 9 27-Mar-1982 IBLOC .ASM 1 27-Mar-1982 IBMNC .SYS 10 27-Mar-1982 IBXMNC.SYS 11 27-Mar-1982 IBNMNC.SYS 10 27-Mar-1982 IBXNMC.SYS 11 27-Mar-1982 IBDBLD.COM 1 27-Mar-1982 IBLIB .OBJ 45 27-May-1982 IBSVER.FOR 7 27-Mar-1982 IBXBLD.COM 1 08-Mar-1983 IBSBLD.COM 2 08-Mar-1983 IBLBLD.COM 10 27-Mar-1982 < UNUSED > 193 54 Files, 293 Blocks 193 Free blocks (C:\PUTR)>COPY RX0:IBSVER.FOR C: IBSVER.FOR C**************************************************************************** C C THIS PROGRAM IS THE INSTALLATION/VERIFICATION PROGRAM FOR THE IBS IEEE BUS C INTERFACE ROUTINES. C C***************************************************************************** C EXTERNAL SERVE !ADDRESS OF USER'S SRQ HANDLING ROUTINE. BYTE ASCII(26) !ASCII ARRAY CONTAINING THE ALPHABET. INTEGER TALK,STAT IBZERO=' ' !ASCII CODE FOR ZERO INSTRUMENT ADDRESS LISTEN=5 !OUR LISTENER'S PRIMARY IEEE BUS ADDRESS. TALK=6 !OUR TALKER'S PRIMARY IEEE BUS ADDRESS. MAXL=15 !OUR MAXIMUM TRANSMIT/RECEIVE LENGTH. LINE=6 C TYPE 1000 1000 FORMAT('1 IBS-11 V2.1 Verification Program'/// 1' This procedure assumes that IB.SYS (or IBX.SYS) has been INSTALLED 2 and LOADED'/' in this system. Also, this procedure assumes 3 that no devices'/' are connected to your IBV11-A/IB11 4 instrument bus.') TYPE 1001 1001 FORMAT(//' The first part of this test calls routines that do 1 not depend'/' on any device and thus should produce no 2 error messages.'//) C CALL IBSTER(16,20) !ALLOW ERROR NUMBER 16 (TIME-OUT) TO OCCUR 20 X CALL IBSTER(5,5) !ALLOW THE NO DEFAULT LISTENER ERROR 5 TIMES CALL IBSTER(7,2) !ALLOW THE BAD UNIT ERROR TO OCCUR TWICE CALL IBSTER(15,25) !ALLOW THE NO VALID LISTENER ERROR TO OCCUR 25 X CALL IBSRQ(SERVE,,,STAT) !SET-UP TO HANDLE SRQ'S CALL IBSRQF(IFLG) !GET STATUS OF SRQ IEEE INTERFACE CONTROL LINE CALL IBTERM() !CLEARS INTERNAL TERMINATOR'S LIST CALL IBPPL !CONDUCT A PARALLEL POLL CALL IBIFC !ISSUE THE IEEE INTERFACE-CLEAR STAT=IBERRF() !GET ERROR INFORMATION CALL IBRDA !DISABLE (TURN-OFF) THE IEEE REMOTE LINE CALL IBREN !ENABLE (TURN-ON) THE IEEE REMOTE LINE TYPE 1002,IBREMO() !READ AND TYPE THE REMOTE LINE STATUS 1002 FORMAT(' IBREMO should return minus one at this point. IBREMO =' 1I6) C TYPE 1003 1003 FORMAT(//' At this point non-fatal error messages should begin to 1 appear.'//' ****EXPECTED ERROR MESSAGES****' 2/' -------------------------------') CALL IBTIMO(120) !SET TIME-OUT VALUE TO 2 SECONDS CALL IBDEV(TALK,IBZERO) !SET-UP SRQ-CAPABLE DEVICE ADDRESS LIST CALL IBLNR() !CHECK FOR VALID LISTENERS CALL IBSEND(ASCII,MAXL,LISTEN) CALL IBSEOI(ASCII,MAXL,LISTEN) CALL IBRECV(ASCII,MAXL,TALK) CALL IBRCVS(STAT) !GET OUR RECEIVE STATUS BACK LENGTH=IBXFER(MAXL,TALK,LISTEN) CALL IBASND(ASCII,MAXL,LISTEN) CALL IBARCV(ASCII,MAXL,TALK) CALL IBAXFR(MAXL,TALK,LISTEN) CALL IBWAIT !WAIT FOR PRECEDING ASYNCHRONOUS I/O TO COMPLETE CALL IBFREE(LISTEN,TALK) CALL IBGTL(LISTEN) CALL IBSDC(LISTEN) CALL IBGET(LISTEN) CALL IBCMD(7) STAT=IBSTS(TALK) IFUN=IBSPL(STAT,TALK) CALL IBPPE(ISENSE,LINE) CALL IBPPD() CALL IBPPU CALL IBUNL CALL IBUNT CALL IBLLO CALL IBDCL CALL IBUNIT(2) TYPE 1004 1004 FORMAT(//' IBS-11 VERIFICATION PROCEDURE SUCCESSFUL!'//) STOP 'END IBS VERIFY' END C C***************************************************************************** C C THE USER'S SRQ HANDLING ROUTINE: C C***************************************************************************** SUBROUTINE SERVE RETURN END From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Nov 16 13:35:51 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 19:35:51 +0000 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-p68HA5nJqJ7JNVxODfcEltnF2xSp9_9aRbK7MbSJhBDOuNKozafyr_n_CBV7s40wK-UWFpdnYbZqYD7XK2eKzcvXxvzD_bfRWm4wUzD56c=@glitchwrks.com> Excellent, now I don't have to dig into that particular project tomorrow :P Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, November 16th, 2021 at 13:25, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:23 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk > > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > I'm going by the 'Instrument Bus Subroutines Programmer's Reference > > > > Manual' that is on bitsavers. [/pdf/dec/pdp11/minc] In section 4, page > > > > 4-1 it seems to imply that there are 6 files: > > > > IBLIB.OBJ > > > > IBSVER.FOR > > > > IBMNC.SYS > > > > IBNMNC.SYS > > > > IBXMNC.SYS > > > > IBXNMC.SYS > > > > I think that's it. *.OBJ is a library to link to, *.FOR is a test > > > > program, *.SYS are device drivers for MINC and ordinary PDP-11 SJ, FB > > > > and XM monitors. It probably is on it's own disk (RX01 RX02?) > > > > Doug > > I have an original DEC RX01 floppy labeled: > > AS-H300E-BC > > INSTMT BUS SUB V2.1 BIN RX1 > > (c) 1983 Digital Equipment Corporation > > I have an image I created from that floppy which I can mount using > > PUTR, and then access the files on the floppy image: > > C:\PUTR>PUTR > > PUTR V2.01 Copyright (C) 1995-2001 by John Wilson wilson at dbit.com. > > All rights reserved. See www.dbit.com for other DEC-related software. > > COPY mode is ASCII, SET COPY BINARY to change > > (C:\PUTR)>MOUNT RX0: AS-H300E.IMG /RONLY /RX01 > > (C:\PUTR)>DIR RX0: > > Volume in drive RX0 is RT11A > > Directory of RX0:\. > > 16-Nov-2021 > > IB .MAC 76 27-Mar-1982 > > IBBASE.MAC 8 27-Mar-1982 > > IBCBLK.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 > > IBCMD .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBDCL .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBDEV .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBERMF.MAC 5 27-Mar-1982 > > IBERR .MAC 4 27-Mar-1982 > > IBERRF.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBERSH.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 > > IBGET .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBGTL .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBIFC .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBINIT.MAC 6 27-Mar-1982 > > IBLEGL.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBLLO .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBLNR .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBLSN .MAC 5 27-Mar-1982 > > IBPPD .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBPPE .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBPPL .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBPPU .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBRCVS.MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBRDA .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBRECV.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 > > IBREMO.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBREN .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBSDC .MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBSEND.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 > > IBSPL .MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 > > IBSRQ .MAC 5 27-Mar-1982 > > IBSRQF.MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBSTER.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBSTS .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBTERM.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBTIMO.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBTLK .MAC 4 27-Mar-1982 > > IBUNIT.MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBUNL .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBUNT .MAC 2 27-Mar-1982 > > IBWAIT.MAC 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBXFER.MAC 3 27-Mar-1982 > > IB .ASM 9 27-Mar-1982 > > IBLOC .ASM 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBMNC .SYS 10 27-Mar-1982 > > IBXMNC.SYS 11 27-Mar-1982 > > IBNMNC.SYS 10 27-Mar-1982 > > IBXNMC.SYS 11 27-Mar-1982 > > IBDBLD.COM 1 27-Mar-1982 > > IBLIB .OBJ 45 27-May-1982 > > IBSVER.FOR 7 27-Mar-1982 > > IBXBLD.COM 1 08-Mar-1983 > > IBSBLD.COM 2 08-Mar-1983 > > IBLBLD.COM 10 27-Mar-1982 > > < UNUSED > 193 > > 54 Files, 293 Blocks > > 193 Free blocks > > (C:\PUTR)>COPY RX0:IBSVER.FOR C: > > IBSVER.FOR > > C**************************************************************************** > > C > > C THIS PROGRAM IS THE INSTALLATION/VERIFICATION PROGRAM FOR THE IBS IEEE BUS > > C INTERFACE ROUTINES. > > C > > C***************************************************************************** > > C > > EXTERNAL SERVE !ADDRESS OF USER'S SRQ HANDLING ROUTINE. > > BYTE ASCII(26) !ASCII ARRAY CONTAINING THE ALPHABET. > > INTEGER TALK,STAT > > IBZERO=' ' !ASCII CODE FOR ZERO INSTRUMENT ADDRESS > > LISTEN=5 !OUR LISTENER'S PRIMARY IEEE BUS ADDRESS. > > TALK=6 !OUR TALKER'S PRIMARY IEEE BUS ADDRESS. > > MAXL=15 !OUR MAXIMUM TRANSMIT/RECEIVE LENGTH. > > LINE=6 > > C > > TYPE 1000 > > 1000 FORMAT('1 IBS-11 V2.1 Verification Program'/// > > 1' This procedure assumes that IB.SYS (or IBX.SYS) has been INSTALLED > > 2 and LOADED'/' in this system. Also, this procedure assumes > > 3 that no devices'/' are connected to your IBV11-A/IB11 > > 4 instrument bus.') > > TYPE 1001 > > 1001 FORMAT(//' The first part of this test calls routines that do > > 1 not depend'/' on any device and thus should produce no > > 2 error messages.'//) > > C > > CALL IBSTER(16,20) !ALLOW ERROR NUMBER 16 (TIME-OUT) TO OCCUR 20 X > > CALL IBSTER(5,5) !ALLOW THE NO DEFAULT LISTENER ERROR 5 TIMES > > CALL IBSTER(7,2) !ALLOW THE BAD UNIT ERROR TO OCCUR TWICE > > CALL IBSTER(15,25) !ALLOW THE NO VALID LISTENER ERROR TO OCCUR 25 X > > CALL IBSRQ(SERVE,,,STAT) !SET-UP TO HANDLE SRQ'S > > CALL IBSRQF(IFLG) !GET STATUS OF SRQ IEEE INTERFACE CONTROL LINE > > CALL IBTERM() !CLEARS INTERNAL TERMINATOR'S LIST > > CALL IBPPL !CONDUCT A PARALLEL POLL > > CALL IBIFC !ISSUE THE IEEE INTERFACE-CLEAR > > STAT=IBERRF() !GET ERROR INFORMATION > > CALL IBRDA !DISABLE (TURN-OFF) THE IEEE REMOTE LINE > > CALL IBREN !ENABLE (TURN-ON) THE IEEE REMOTE LINE > > TYPE 1002,IBREMO() !READ AND TYPE THE REMOTE LINE STATUS > > 1002 FORMAT(' IBREMO should return minus one at this point. IBREMO =' > > 1I6) > > C > > TYPE 1003 > > 1003 FORMAT(//' At this point non-fatal error messages should begin to > > 1 appear.'//' EXPECTED ERROR MESSAGES' > > 2/' -------------------------------') > > CALL IBTIMO(120) !SET TIME-OUT VALUE TO 2 SECONDS > > CALL IBDEV(TALK,IBZERO) !SET-UP SRQ-CAPABLE DEVICE ADDRESS LIST > > CALL IBLNR() !CHECK FOR VALID LISTENERS > > CALL IBSEND(ASCII,MAXL,LISTEN) > > CALL IBSEOI(ASCII,MAXL,LISTEN) > > CALL IBRECV(ASCII,MAXL,TALK) > > CALL IBRCVS(STAT) !GET OUR RECEIVE STATUS BACK > > LENGTH=IBXFER(MAXL,TALK,LISTEN) > > CALL IBASND(ASCII,MAXL,LISTEN) > > CALL IBARCV(ASCII,MAXL,TALK) > > CALL IBAXFR(MAXL,TALK,LISTEN) > > CALL IBWAIT !WAIT FOR PRECEDING ASYNCHRONOUS I/O TO COMPLETE > > CALL IBFREE(LISTEN,TALK) > > CALL IBGTL(LISTEN) > > CALL IBSDC(LISTEN) > > CALL IBGET(LISTEN) > > CALL IBCMD(7) > > STAT=IBSTS(TALK) > > IFUN=IBSPL(STAT,TALK) > > CALL IBPPE(ISENSE,LINE) > > CALL IBPPD() > > CALL IBPPU > > CALL IBUNL > > CALL IBUNT > > CALL IBLLO > > CALL IBDCL > > CALL IBUNIT(2) > > TYPE 1004 > > 1004 FORMAT(//' IBS-11 VERIFICATION PROCEDURE SUCCESSFUL!'//) > > STOP 'END IBS VERIFY' > > END > > C > > C***************************************************************************** > > C > > C THE USER'S SRQ HANDLING ROUTINE: > > C > > C***************************************************************************** > > SUBROUTINE SERVE > > RETURN > > END From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 15:26:53 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:26:53 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:01 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > In my pile of DEC computer stuff I have a DEC qbus IBV11 IEEE-488 > controller board (M7954) with cable (BN11-A) that connects to the GPIB bus. Fun card. Thanks for starting this thread. I have one too (came with my MINC-11) and I have experience with IEEE-488 from my many hours spent with Commodore PETs. Thanks to all for sharing code and software. -ethan From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 16:08:56 2021 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:08:56 -0500 Subject: I-4004 Message-ID: Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? It is 50 today. Classic computing begins earlier but for the masses, if they could be called that in the early seventies, this was it. I hesitate in calling it the first microprocessor as pc'ers will object. Happy computing all. Murray ? From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 16 16:11:30 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 22:11:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 In-Reply-To: <26363CD5-BEC4-4930-81C2-4F96E85985FC@comcast.net> References: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> <26363CD5-BEC4-4930-81C2-4F96E85985FC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <246668202.763729.1637100690847@mail.yahoo.com> And agin people ask.? (Us included!)...? which processor is the true first... the all white and gold... or... the white and gold with leads showing thru...? Intel pictures? the leads show labeing through in? publicity stuff.... it does look better in a photo... some? Collectors? say the white and gold ( but it seems that is the one they personally own)......? ?we are fortunate to have been presented a white and gold this year. But unclear how to label the TRUE? chronology ...? we do have a black one? but we all know? that is a later one.... thanks for any insight. Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:51 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: The Wall St. Journal had a good essay about that, by Andy Kessler.? This link should get you there: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-chip-that-changed-the-world-microprocessor-computing-transistor-breakthrough-intel-11636903999?st=nm37ik74mq9vp51&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink The subtitle is "Most of the wealth created since 1971 is a result of Intel?s 4004 microprocessor" which seems extravagant until you read his arguments. I still remember the 4004-based personal computer a college classmate of mine designed and built in 1974.? It was a large (DEC Unibus hex module sized) wire wrap board with about 100 chips on it.? And it worked.? Slowly, but it could do useful programs. ??? paul > On Nov 16, 2021, at 12:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like the Intel 4004 turned 50 yesterday. > > Zane > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 16 16:20:31 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:20:31 -0800 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? no From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Nov 16 16:25:16 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:25:16 -0800 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F53FA10-3129-42A0-B6D7-BEAC1B34EB3C@avanthar.com> On Nov 16, 2021, at 2:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? It is 50 today. > Classic computing begins earlier but for the masses, if they could be > called that in the early seventies, this was it. I hesitate in calling it > the first microprocessor as pc'ers will object. > > Happy computing all. > > Murray ? For me, it was the Honeywell DPS-8 that started my interest in ?Classic Computers?. Mind you, the ones I used were production systems, running a current version of GCOS-8. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 16:33:05 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:33:05 -0500 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Best, most concise answer of the week. -- Will On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 5:20 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? > > no > > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Tue Nov 16 16:35:32 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:35:32 -0600 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a7be66b-2828-82a0-216b-469acfd3be69@12bitsbest.com> As for microprocessors, there are MANY MANY micros that preceded the PC. You can find a list here: ?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor_chronology The 8088 is a late comer to the microprocessor world. On 11/16/2021 4:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? It is 50 today. > Classic computing begins earlier but for the masses, if they could be > called that in the early seventies, this was it. I hesitate in calling it > the first microprocessor as pc'ers will object. > > Happy computing all. > > Murray ? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 16 16:58:14 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:58:14 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-11-16 1:25 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:23 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I'm going by the 'Instrument Bus Subroutines Programmer's Reference >> Manual' that is on bitsavers. [/pdf/dec/pdp11/minc] In section 4, page >> 4-1 it seems to imply that there are 6 files: >> >> IBLIB.OBJ >> IBSVER.FOR >> IBMNC.SYS >> IBNMNC.SYS >> IBXMNC.SYS >> IBXNMC.SYS >> >> I think that's it. *.OBJ is a library to link to, *.FOR is a test >> program, *.SYS are device drivers for MINC and ordinary PDP-11 SJ, FB >> and XM monitors. It probably is on it's own disk (RX01 RX02?) >> >> Doug > > I have an original DEC RX01 floppy labeled: > > AS-H300E-BC > INSTMT BUS SUB V2.1 BIN RX1 > (c) 1983 Digital Equipment Corporation > > I have an image I created from that floppy which I can mount using > PUTR, and then access the files on the floppy image: > Hi Glen, Can you make the image available? Thanks --Toby From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 17:09:01 2021 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 18:09:01 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 at 16:27, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Fun card. Thanks for starting this thread. I have one too (came with > my MINC-11) and I have experience with IEEE-488 from my many hours > spent with Commodore PETs. > Hmm now that I'm reminded that a large proportion of Commodore's "stuff" was IEEE 488 or a serialized version thereof. I kind of want to see now if an IBV11 and Commodore 1541 can be abused into cooperating. (There'd need to be a small "box of stuff" to turn the real 488 bus to CBM's serial thing.) > Thanks to all for sharing code and software. > I'll second this; many thanks for sharing the official DEC RT-11 drivers and code. Best regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Tue Nov 16 17:18:35 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:18:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: <8a7be66b-2828-82a0-216b-469acfd3be69@12bitsbest.com> References: <8a7be66b-2828-82a0-216b-469acfd3be69@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <1339053322.451411.1637104715626@email.ionos.com> > On 11/16/2021 4:35 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > As for microprocessors, there are MANY MANY micros that preceded the PC. > Pretty sure "PC" meant "Politically Correct." Will From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 16 17:29:30 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:29:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 In-Reply-To: <246668202.763729.1637100690847@mail.yahoo.com> References: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> <26363CD5-BEC4-4930-81C2-4F96E85985FC@comcast.net> <246668202.763729.1637100690847@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1897701937.940772.1637105370745@mail.yahoo.com> The two contenders on tside leading g to the gold caphis question are white and Gold 4004. And. The white? and gold with leads showing through in the white material i Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 3:11 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: And agin people ask.? (Us included!)...? which processor is the true first... the all white and gold... or... the white and gold with leads showing thru...? Intel pictures? the leads show labeing through in? publicity stuff.... it does look better in a photo... some? Collectors? say the white and gold ( but it seems that is the one they personally own)......? ?we are fortunate to have been presented a white and gold this year. But unclear how to label the TRUE? chronology ...? we do have a black one? but we all know? that is a later one.... thanks for any insight. Sent from the all new AOL app for Android ? On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:51 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:? The Wall St. Journal had a good essay about that, by Andy Kessler.? This link should get you there: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-chip-that-changed-the-world-microprocessor-computing-transistor-breakthrough-intel-11636903999?st=nm37ik74mq9vp51&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink The subtitle is "Most of the wealth created since 1971 is a result of Intel?s 4004 microprocessor" which seems extravagant until you read his arguments. I still remember the 4004-based personal computer a college classmate of mine designed and built in 1974.? It was a large (DEC Unibus hex module sized) wire wrap board with about 100 chips on it.? And it worked.? Slowly, but it could do useful programs. ??? paul > On Nov 16, 2021, at 12:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like the Intel 4004 turned 50 yesterday. > > Zane > > > ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 16 17:41:52 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:41:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2021, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? For ME, hearing about the 4004 was the first solid assurance that tabletop computers would become available. I heard some mentions of it from cow- orkers at Goddard Space Flight Center, and then somebody referred me to the Electronic News article. Very shortly after that, I got out of aerospace, which was going through some turmoil, but promised that I would get back into computers as soon as they got into MY price range. THAT ended up being the Z80 based TRS80 for $399. A LOT of people HERE were in it LONG before I was. > It is 50 today. Classic computing begins earlier but for the masses, if > they could be called that in the early seventies, this was it. Yes, there were prior machines, but the 4004 is ARGUABLY the first successful commercial mass-produced one. There were others, from TI, Fairchild, Four-Phase?, etc. As usual, the label "FIRST" is questionable due to whether we count announcement, prototypes, demos, shipping, etc. > I hesitate in calling it the first microprocessor as pc'ers will object. It is good to hesitate! Virtually EVERY "FIRST" has some prior art. If, by "pc'ers", you mean Politically Correct, then it is arguably correct. If, however, by "pc'ers", you mean the IBM 5150, then NO! The IBM 5150 was a late entry in order to "take over" and "dominate" an already "bustling" market. Some call the 5150, the start of the END of classic computing, or at least of the hobby dominated field. > Happy computing all. > Murray ? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 16 17:51:38 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:51:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2021, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove via cctalk wrote: > Hmm now that I'm reminded that a large proportion of Commodore's > "stuff" was IEEE 488 or a serialized version thereof. Was that called "IEC"? > I kind of want to see now if an IBV11 and Commodore 1541 can be abused > into cooperating. (There'd need to be a small "box of stuff" to turn > the real 488 bus to CBM's serial thing.) I used to have an aftermarket drive for Commodore 64 made by MSD? that had both the Commodore serial AND the full GPIB IEEE488 interfaces. I cabled that to an IEEE488 board on a PC, but then life got in the way, and I never got around to mastering it. It can be done, but I didn't do it. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 16 17:52:56 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:52:56 -0700 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c4f5cb9-b738-fb3a-ea70-31ec8d3a4515@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-11-16 3:33 p.m., William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Best, most concise answer of the week. > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 5:20 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >>> Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? >> >> no >> For me it was STAR TREK. Not everybody in the 70's had a 4004. The 4004 had the most press, but how many 4 other bit micro controller chips went in to things like washing machines or microwave ovens. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 16 17:59:54 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:59:54 -0700 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: <1339053322.451411.1637104715626@email.ionos.com> References: <8a7be66b-2828-82a0-216b-469acfd3be69@12bitsbest.com> <1339053322.451411.1637104715626@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <11049165-bf95-9218-33ef-3edb795e7365@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-11-16 4:18 p.m., Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 11/16/2021 4:35 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> As for microprocessors, there are MANY MANY micros that preceded the PC. >> > > Pretty sure "PC" meant "Politically Correct." > > Will > I believe in free speech, not "Politically Correct". The trash man takes out the trash, not some fancy "Politically Correct" name. It feels more guilty using the correct term when dumpster diving. :). Ben. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Nov 16 18:08:23 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:08:23 -0800 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/16/2021 2:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? > > no > > I got interested in microprogramming? before it was hijacked as a a term for such devices.? It's generous at best to apply that term to a 4004 anyway. In 1971 firmware and the like still was still very much something that was used in conjunction with system design.? A group was very active, SIGMicro to share techniques.? Only after most microprogramming vanished into a black hole in the silicon did it taper off. I'm glad some amount of that discipline has emerged in that context, and not applied to small ceramic chips with gold legs. thanks Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 16 18:30:11 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:30:11 -0700 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06185352-1895-23cb-84ee-3de1d5029e67@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-11-16 4:41 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Yes, there were prior machines, but the 4004 is ARGUABLY the first > successful commercial mass-produced one. > There were others, from TI, Fairchild, Four-Phase?, etc. > As usual, the label "FIRST" is questionable due to whether we count > announcement, prototypes, demos, shipping, etc. I think the first to sell at $5 or some other magic price number was most important. For $75 more you can get a state of the art toaster, with one touch browning and a free remote. > Some call the 5150, the start of the END of classic computing, or at > least of the hobby dominated field. > The lack of good front panel I say was end of classic computing. After that every thing was the same black box computer, and C compiler. >> Happy computing all. >> Murray? ? IBM IS EVIL. LIKE BIG BROTHER FROM 1984. Well regards to in my view to open ideas in computing hardware and software up until the internet. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 16 19:22:48 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 18:22:48 -0700 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f965022-653d-7d0a-d4fe-81c994bbbf3f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-11-16 5:08 p.m., jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 11/16/2021 2:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >>> Did the 4004 chip start our interest in microcomputing? >> >> no >> >> > I got interested in microprogramming? before it was hijacked as a a term > for such devices.? It's generous at best to apply that term to a 4004 > anyway. > > In 1971 firmware and the like still was still very much something that > was used in conjunction with system design.? A group was very active, > SIGMicro to share techniques.? Only after most microprogramming vanished > into a black hole in the silicon did it taper off. > > I'm glad some amount of that discipline has emerged in that context, and > not applied to small ceramic chips with gold legs. > > thanks > Jim > Only looking back now at the price and speed of main memory, I can see micro-programming advantage. Having the word settle on 8 bit bytes; (my vote was for 10 bits : 2 BCD digits + sign flag + end flag) You have a severe lack opcode space as every thing is n+ bytes, compared to when you could design the CPU to what ever word sized you needed and room for micro-coded ops and full alu rather than ADD DCA AND OPERATE. Ben. Back then you touch the hardware. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 17 00:02:51 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 06:02:51 +0000 Subject: I-4004 In-Reply-To: <4f965022-653d-7d0a-d4fe-81c994bbbf3f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4f965022-653d-7d0a-d4fe-81c994bbbf3f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I have had an interest in the 4004 for a number of years. I've acquired a SIM4-01 that I've used over the years to read and program 1702A EPROMs. I've recently also located a copy of Tom Pittman's resident 4004 assembler. Quite remarkable when you realize that that it was a complete two pass assembler that ran in just 1K of machine code. I've always been interested in application code that ran on the 4004. The CHM has recovered the ROMs used on the original Busicom calculator and has been disassembled. One can easily find it on the web. In my searches I've found code that was used to calculate time differences from satellites ( now days GPS ). A couple of the more interesting pieces of code that I've come across was a load calculator for helicopters and an electronic maneuver board ( used on shop to determine closest point of approach with time, speed and distance ). These two projects were interesting because they were developed by students of Gary Kildall, before CP/M was even a dream. A number of years ago, I began a project to recreate a working maneuver board calculator. The original used 13 ea 1702As. That was a little bit much so I used a single 2732 instead. Anyway, I had the maneuver board at the VCF west this year, along with the sim4-01 and a 4004 to arduino interface. If one has a 4004 or a 4040 with adapter, one could run the Busicom calculator code on that arduino retro-shield. One of the fellows had the weighing machines running on 4004 as well. All in celebration of the 50th year. Dwight From danieldsnyder at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 17:32:36 2021 From: danieldsnyder at gmail.com (dsnyder) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 18:32:36 -0500 Subject: Free DEC stuff clarifications Message-ID: I have numerous requests for pickup. What is the most fair way dealing with this? First come first serve? I need to have removed by Christmas. >From memory, I can state what is in the photos. 1 - Alphaserver DS20E 1 - Alphaserver DS20 1 - Alphaserver 1000 1 - Alphaserver 1000A 2 - Compaq XP1000 1 - Alphaserver 1200 1 - Alphaserver 400 4 - non functional Decserver 700's ( bad ps) 2 - Decstation 500 2 - Alpha PC workstation TZ series tape inits BA 350 series drive racks I also have VMS CD media and maybe True64 Call me at 7-2-4-9-9-1-6-9-8-3 From Anders.Gustafsson at pedago.fi Mon Nov 15 00:30:16 2021 From: Anders.Gustafsson at pedago.fi (Anders Gustafsson) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:30:16 +0200 Subject: Old Xerox stuff? 820, 860 Message-ID: <6191FE78020000280011AEF0@pamir.pedago.fi> We were cleaning the basement yesterday and I came across some Xerox stuff from the 1980's. For the 860 there are program listings and disk format documentation. For the 820 I have BIOS listings and service manuals for the monitor they used. Ny company happened to work with RX here in Finland and I wrote routines to convert from X860 to WordPerfect. Also from the typewriters. -- Med v?nlig h?lsning Anders Gustafsson, ingenj?r anders.gustafsson at pedago.fi | Support +358 18 12060 | Direkt +358 9 315 45 121 | Mobil +358 40506 7099 Pedago interaktiv ab, Nygatan 7 B , AX-22100 MARIEHAMN, ?LAND, FINLAND From pleasefixmybrick at gmail.com Mon Nov 15 12:37:45 2021 From: pleasefixmybrick at gmail.com (pleasefixthisbrick) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:37:45 -0500 Subject: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? It certainly didn't have market penetration in USA! I did once have, and implemented in XenoCopy, a sample disk from an Okidata if800 model 20, which seemed to be the same as a BMC if800 model 20 (if one more alternate name might help you find information). I hadn't heard the Sumicom badging. ? I also had a disk for Oki (don't know if same model) with the Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, instead of CP/M. ? Unfortunately, the model 20 was a different architecture all together. I have begun looking into Japanese museums. Maybe there is more documentation and data in its country of origin. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 15 12:56:14 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:56:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does anybody have documentation or know about the OKI IF800/300 a.k.a. Sumicom System 830 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I also had a disk for Oki (don't know if same model) with the Microsoft > Stand-Alone BASIC, instead of CP/M. On Mon, 15 Nov 2021, pleasefixthisbrick via cctech wrote: > Unfortunately, the model 20 was a different architecture all together. I > have begun looking into Japanese museums. Maybe there is more documentation > and data in its country of origin. I don't know where Okidata's primary markets were, but, the sample disk that I had came from Russia! From cclist at sytse.net Wed Nov 17 07:00:11 2021 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:00:11 +0100 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Did you think of running MINC basic? That would almost certainly work, even if you don't have any other MINC cards in your machine. Most elegant of course if you'd run the complete floppy image (to be found on Bitsavers), but I'd bet it will also just work if you extract the q4szmx.sav from those images and run that on just about any working rt-11. Can't really test it out though - the IEEE488 stuff is not (yet) in my FPGA implementation of the MINC - it doesn't look to be difficult at all, but I don't have any IEEE488 capable instruments to connect to :-/ There's a nice manual on IEEE488 in the MINC set too, find it here: https://electrickery.nl/comp/minc/doc/ Cheers Sytse > On 16 Nov 2021, at 17:01, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > In my pile of DEC computer stuff I have a DEC qbus IBV11 IEEE-488 controller board (M7954) with cable (BN11-A) that connects to the GPIB bus. > > It would be interesting to try this out, but I don't have the DEC 'Instrument Bus Subroutines' that work under RT-11. Does anyone have this package? Or know where it can be found? > > Doug > From trevorjmarshall at yahoo.com Wed Nov 17 08:42:53 2021 From: trevorjmarshall at yahoo.com (Trevor Marshall) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:42:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 In-Reply-To: <1897701937.940772.1637105370745@mail.yahoo.com> References: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> <26363CD5-BEC4-4930-81C2-4F96E85985FC@comcast.net> <246668202.763729.1637100690847@mail.yahoo.com> <1897701937.940772.1637105370745@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <750308236.2676614.1637160173284@mail.yahoo.com> The Intel 4004 was Harvard Architecture, as were the four bit microprocessors that came later. (TI's TMS-1000, National Semi's COPS, Rockwell's PPS4) Fine for a fixed program calculator or microcontroller, but the von Neumann 8 bit microprocessor IC's opened up vastly more advances in low cost computer hardware and software. On Tuesday, November 16, 2021, 06:29:46 PM EST, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: The two contenders on tside leading g to the gold caphis question are white and Gold 4004. And. The white? and gold with leads showing through in the white material i Sent from the all new AOL app for Android ? On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 3:11 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:? And agin people ask.? (Us included!)...? which processor is the true first... the all white and gold... or... the white and gold with leads showing thru...? Intel pictures? the leads show labeing through in? publicity stuff.... it does look better in a photo... some? Collectors? say the white and gold ( but it seems that is the one they personally own)......? ?we are fortunate to have been presented a white and gold this year. But unclear how to label the TRUE? chronology ...? we do have a black one? but we all know? that is a later one.... thanks for any insight. Sent from the all new AOL app for Android ? On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:51 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:? The Wall St. Journal had a good essay about that, by Andy Kessler.? This link should get you there: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-chip-that-changed-the-world-microprocessor-computing-transistor-breakthrough-intel-11636903999?st=nm37ik74mq9vp51&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink The subtitle is "Most of the wealth created since 1971 is a result of Intel?s 4004 microprocessor" which seems extravagant until you read his arguments. I still remember the 4004-based personal computer a college classmate of mine designed and built in 1974.? It was a large (DEC Unibus hex module sized) wire wrap board with about 100 chips on it.? And it worked.? Slowly, but it could do useful programs. ??? paul > On Nov 16, 2021, at 12:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like the Intel 4004 turned 50 yesterday. > > Zane > > > ? ? From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Nov 17 09:37:22 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:37:22 -0700 Subject: Free DEC stuff clarifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/14/21 4:32 PM, dsnyder via cctalk wrote: > I have numerous requests for pickup. What city / state does the equipment need to be picked up from? It's not possible to tell based on the area code in phone numbers with local portability. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 17 09:45:08 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 16:45:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 In-Reply-To: <1897701937.940772.1637105370745@mail.yahoo.com> References: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> <26363CD5-BEC4-4930-81C2-4F96E85985FC@comcast.net> <246668202.763729.1637100690847@mail.yahoo.com> <1897701937.940772.1637105370745@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9bad1cc3-987a-3cbb-1f5-cca05a5c9b2@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Tue, 16 Nov 2021, ED SHARPE wrote: > The two contenders on tside leading g to the gold caphis question are > white and Gold 4004. And. The white? and gold with leads showing through > in the white material i And now in English, please! Christian From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Nov 17 10:28:58 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:28:58 -0800 Subject: Free DEC stuff clarifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 17, 2021, at 7:37 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/14/21 4:32 PM, dsnyder via cctalk wrote: >> I have numerous requests for pickup. > > What city / state does the equipment need to be picked up from? > > It's not possible to tell based on the area code in phone numbers with local portability. He?d posted on the 14th. "Located in western PA near Pittsburgh? Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 10:15:38 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 11:15:38 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:09 PM Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 at 16:27, Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > ... I have experience with IEEE-488 from my many hours > > spent with Commodore PETs. > > > Hmm now that I'm reminded that a large proportion of Commodore's > "stuff" was IEEE 488 or a serialized version thereof. Yep. All PETs have true IEEE-488, albeit a software-driven implementation so it's not high-speed (few kb/sec). Starting with the VIC-20, they used that serialized version, because Jack Tramiel was tired of the cost of cables and connectors. > I kind of want to see now if an IBV11 and Commodore 1541 can be abused > into cooperating. I think it could be done. The IBV11 can certainly keep up with the 6502 in the drive that's banging out the IEEE-488 protocol. > (There'd need to be a small "box of stuff" to turn the real 488 bus to CBM's serial thing.) You would need a box like that (they do exist) for talking to a later device like the abundant 1541 floppy drive, but you could just plug the cable right into an older drive for the PET, a 4040 dual-double-density 5.25 drive, or an 8050/8250 drive (higher density, more tracks), or even a D9060/D9090 hard drive (5MB or 7.5MB, internally has an MFM drive and a SASI-ST506 bridge). The "DOS" is in ROM in the disk drives, including everything about files and filesystem layout. You wouldn't have to port that to the PDP-11. You talk to all the drives with the usual IEEE protocol of secondary addresses and command strings. On the PET side, it's LOAD/SAVE, OPEN/CLOSE, and PRINT#/INPUT# (later ROMs added a command layer for "disk commands" but they are just wrappers around the primitive calls). The directory is a special file named "$"; to get a directory, you open that file and read the contents. The drive sends the directory not as plain text, but as a loadable BASIC program so you do have to convert "line numbers" (file block sizes) to ASCII, and you have to convert all the text contents from PETSCII to ASCII. All doable in a couple of pages of code. There are a number of books for how the Commodore side works. You can even use the later serialized drive books to understand the higher protocol. At a character level, it's identical. In terms of using it as a more generic device, there are block-level primitive commands (U1 and U2 for read and write-block) but the physical block size is 256 bytes, even on the D9060/D9090 hard drives. I'm sure it's possible to write a native driver for RT-11, bypassing the Commodore filesystem, but it sure would be slow. -ethan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Nov 17 10:41:43 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:41:43 -0700 Subject: Free DEC stuff clarifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55ddf251-14db-ce02-358d-62cdc7388ca5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/17/21 9:28 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > He?d posted on the 14th. > > "Located in western PA near Pittsburgh? Thank you for the assist Zane. I don't know how I missed that when I looked for his email address. I guess it's time for more caffeine. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 17:10:44 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:10:44 -0800 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 2:58 PM Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-11-16 1:25 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:23 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> I'm going by the 'Instrument Bus Subroutines Programmer's Reference > >> Manual' that is on bitsavers. [/pdf/dec/pdp11/minc] In section 4, page > >> 4-1 it seems to imply that there are 6 files: > >> > >> IBLIB.OBJ > >> IBSVER.FOR > >> IBMNC.SYS > >> IBNMNC.SYS > >> IBXMNC.SYS > >> IBXNMC.SYS > >> > >> I think that's it. *.OBJ is a library to link to, *.FOR is a test > >> program, *.SYS are device drivers for MINC and ordinary PDP-11 SJ, FB > >> and XM monitors. It probably is on it's own disk (RX01 RX02?) > >> > >> Doug > > > > I have an original DEC RX01 floppy labeled: > > > > AS-H300E-BC > > INSTMT BUS SUB V2.1 BIN RX1 > > (c) 1983 Digital Equipment Corporation > > > > I have an image I created from that floppy which I can mount using > > PUTR, and then access the files on the floppy image: > > > > > Hi Glen, > > Can you make the image available? > > Thanks > --Toby Disk images have been sent to Al. I assume he will eventually upload them to Bitsavers when he has time to do so... From sieler at allegro.com Wed Nov 17 19:23:06 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:23:06 -0800 Subject: Ken Gielow passed away Message-ID: Last week, Ken Gielow passed away. He was the author of the Z80DIS disassembler, which was both interactive and used a form of "artificial intelligence" to cleverly disassemble Z80 code. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 17 19:49:23 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:49:23 -0800 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3fa6862c-4b31-d64e-98f1-83ecd6a22a3b@bitsavers.org> On 11/17/21 3:10 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Disk images have been sent to Al. I assume he will eventually upload > them to Bitsavers when he has time to do so... > uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages/RT11-V05.01.ZIP From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 17 21:00:27 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 03:00:27 +0000 Subject: Intel 4004 turns 50 In-Reply-To: <9bad1cc3-987a-3cbb-1f5-cca05a5c9b2@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <34AF8D44-0AB8-4EAB-9E61-1215FCA92A77@avanthar.com> <26363CD5-BEC4-4930-81C2-4F96E85985FC@comcast.net> <246668202.763729.1637100690847@mail.yahoo.com> <1897701937.940772.1637105370745@mail.yahoo.com> <9bad1cc3-987a-3cbb-1f5-cca05a5c9b2@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: The rarest 4004s are the grey trace with a black dot, instead of the gold dot for pin one. I have two grey trace but with gold dot. I believe these are older than the grey trace with black dot. Although, as originally sold, the 4004 was a Harvard architecture, it could be made to be, easily, made to be a von Neumann machine with either a 4008/4009 set or a 4289. I don't know if that was ever done, other than for the Mod 4 development machine. The 4004 had no interrupt but the later 4040 did. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 7:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel 4004 turns 50 On Tue, 16 Nov 2021, ED SHARPE wrote: > The two contenders on tside leading g to the gold caphis question are > white and Gold 4004. And. The white and gold with leads showing through > in the white material i And now in English, please! Christian From jim at deitygraveyard.com Thu Nov 18 00:53:27 2021 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:53:27 -0500 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? Message-ID: Is anybody able to access these sites? I just get redirected to Google. Jim From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 18 02:14:42 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:14:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2021, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:09 PM Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >> I kind of want to see now if an IBV11 and Commodore 1541 can be abused >> into cooperating. > > I think it could be done. The IBV11 can certainly keep up with the > 6502 in the drive that's banging out the IEEE-488 protocol. Our Tektronix 4051 can talk to and use Commodore IEEE floppy drives for mass storage. It has a custom ROM extension for it. Christian From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 18 07:20:39 2021 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:20:39 -0600 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211118132039.GA14052@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (11/18/2021 at 01:53AM -0500), Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: > Is anybody able to access these sites? I just get redirected to Google. I have not received any email from the controlfreaks mailing list for over 60 days either. I automatically expire stuff older than 60 days and the mailbox is totally empty now. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Nov 18 07:23:40 2021 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:23:40 -0600 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Nov 18, 2021, at 12:53 AM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: > > Is anybody able to access these sites? I just get redirected to Google. > > Jim Quite simply, Tom got mad, took his ball, and went home. It is my understanding that everything has been deleted and won?t be restored. From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Nov 18 08:09:33 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:09:33 -0800 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's what's been archived for one of the two websites: https://web.archive.org/web/*/control-data.info Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don?t have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don?t." --Jonathan Winters -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jim Carpenter via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 10:53 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? Is anybody able to access these sites? I just get redirected to Google. Jim From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Thu Nov 18 08:22:39 2021 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:22:39 -0500 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: What happened? Looking back at my emails, the list was operating normally until September 3. Then it just stopped. There were normal discussions going on. There was no flood of spam. As far as I can tell, nothing occured that would trigger a rage quit. Is the software and documentation that was on the site at least archived elsewhere? Has anybody downloaded it and can maybe upload to archive.org? Mike On Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 8:23 AM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Nov 18, 2021, at 12:53 AM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Is anybody able to access these sites? I just get redirected to Google. > > > > Jim > > Quite simply, Tom got mad, took his ball, and went home. It is my > understanding that everything has been deleted and won?t be restored. > > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 18 08:24:47 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:24:47 -0500 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <20211118092447.35988c3b@dragonsweb.org> On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:23:40 -0600 Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > On Nov 18, 2021, at 12:53 AM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > Is anybody able to access these sites? I just get redirected to > > Google. > > > > Jim > > Quite simply, Tom got mad, took his ball, and went home. It is my > understanding that everything has been deleted and won?t be restored. > > Maybe. I'm thinking it's possible he's acting on advice of legal counsel, and the sites will be restored at some point. We'll see. Thanks, Tom, for DtCyber, GPL'ing it, and for making the sites available as long as you did. jbdigriz From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Thu Nov 18 08:28:44 2021 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:28:44 -0500 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: <20211118092447.35988c3b@dragonsweb.org> References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> <20211118092447.35988c3b@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: Why would legal counsel tell him to take the site down? That makes no sense. Mike On Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 9:24 AM James B DiGriz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:23:40 -0600 > Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Nov 18, 2021, at 12:53 AM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > Is anybody able to access these sites? I just get redirected to > > > Google. > > > > > > Jim > > > > Quite simply, Tom got mad, took his ball, and went home. It is my > > understanding that everything has been deleted and won?t be restored. > > > > > > Maybe. I'm thinking it's possible he's acting on advice of legal > counsel, and the sites will be restored at some point. We'll see. > > Thanks, Tom, for DtCyber, GPL'ing it, and for making the sites > available as long as you did. > > jbdigriz > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Nov 18 08:32:26 2021 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:32:26 -0600 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 18, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > What happened? Looking back at my emails, the list was operating normally until September 3. Then it just stopped. There were normal discussions going on. There was no flood of spam. As far as I can tell, nothing occured that would trigger a rage quit. A news article was posted wherein another party was credited with creating DTCyber and a screenshot showed that party had removed his advertisements from the software. The GPL does not have an advertising clause, and he did not have grounds to demand the advertisement be restored, so he decided it best to delete everything. From jacob at dahl-pind.dk Thu Nov 18 08:34:19 2021 From: jacob at dahl-pind.dk (jacob at dahl-pind.dk) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:34:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Apple cube cleaning Message-ID: I got a Apple cube here as part of a larger haul, at some point someone placed a bit of tape on the clear polycarbonate case, the tape is long gone but the yellow glue remains. Am unsure about the hardness of it, if I could use sugar cubes to rub it off, anyone knows a scratch free way to get it off ? Regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Thu Nov 18 08:37:56 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:37:56 -0600 Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5627d868-f9e4-f10a-4364-7abdb881b0c1@12bitsbest.com> Have you tried Goo Gone? On 11/18/2021 8:34 AM, jacob--- via cctalk wrote: > > I got a Apple cube here as part of a larger haul, at some point > someone placed a bit of tape on the clear polycarbonate case, the tape > is long gone but the yellow glue remains. > > Am unsure about the hardness of it, if I could use sugar cubes to rub > it off, anyone knows a scratch free way to get it off ? > > Regards > > -- > Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 08:54:12 2021 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:54:12 -0300 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: And the ones harmed were the people who cared for and supported him, the guy who stole his material got nothing but promotion. A very selfish and childish way to handle things. If you like a site...clone it to your HD, it happens more than you think :( 73 de pu2sex Alexandre Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em qui, 18 de nov de 2021 11:32, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > > > On Nov 18, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > > > What happened? Looking back at my emails, the list was operating > normally until September 3. Then it just stopped. There were normal > discussions going on. There was no flood of spam. As far as I can tell, > nothing occured that would trigger a rage quit. > > A news article was posted wherein another party was credited with creating > DTCyber and a screenshot showed that party had removed his advertisements > from the software. > > The GPL does not have an advertising clause, and he did not have grounds > to demand the advertisement be restored, so he decided it best to delete > everything. > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 18 09:01:10 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:01:10 -0500 Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: <5627d868-f9e4-f10a-4364-7abdb881b0c1@12bitsbest.com> References: <5627d868-f9e4-f10a-4364-7abdb881b0c1@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <499EA229-60AB-4DF6-B1C4-61B38FFB8CB3@comcast.net> A chemical engineer friend in the adhesives business told me years ago that WD-40 is a good solvent to use for adhesives stuck to plastic. It's unlikely to hurt the plastic but it will soften the glue. It's not fast but it does work. As always, check on a hidden part of the case to make sure the particular plastic doesn't object to the stuff you're using. paul > On Nov 18, 2021, at 9:37 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Have you tried Goo Gone? > > On 11/18/2021 8:34 AM, jacob--- via cctalk wrote: >> >> I got a Apple cube here as part of a larger haul, at some point someone placed a bit of tape on the clear polycarbonate case, the tape is long gone but the yellow glue remains. >> >> Am unsure about the hardness of it, if I could use sugar cubes to rub it off, anyone knows a scratch free way to get it off ? >> >> Regards >> >> -- >> Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 >> > From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 18 09:23:48 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:23:48 -0800 Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: <5627d868-f9e4-f10a-4364-7abdb881b0c1@12bitsbest.com> References: <5627d868-f9e4-f10a-4364-7abdb881b0c1@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <8B972A76-72DC-400F-9A2F-C65A802155EC@avanthar.com> On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:37 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Have you tried Goo Gone? I?d be scared to try Goo Gone on a Apple Cube case. IIRC, it?s not exactly normal plastic. As Paul points out, try whatever is used on a spot that will be out of view. This is a great question, it applies not just to the Cube, but to any Apple system of that vintage. Zane From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Nov 18 10:59:14 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:59:14 +0100 Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 03:34:19PM +0100, jacob--- via cctalk wrote: > I got a Apple cube here as part of a larger haul, at some point someone > placed a bit of tape on the clear polycarbonate case, the tape is long > gone but the yellow glue remains. > Am unsure about the hardness of it, if I could use sugar cubes to rub it > off, anyone knows a scratch free way to get it off ? I assume you've already attempted to throw the usual household stuff at it as if it was a phone or TV. If not, dig out the glass cleaner and microfibre cloths and get onto that. In addition to the plausible suggestion elsethread of WD-40, I'd also give it a gentle waft of a hairdryer (or heat gun set suitably-low) to try and melt the glue without melting the plastic, and then it may be more amenable to wiping-off. Brasso, T-Cut, or similar come in useful if you manage to scratch it anyway. Test your technique on some matching scrap plastic first before moving on to the case. You say "polycarbonate" but Wikipedia says "acrylic", and these have quite different mechanical properties so you should verify which plastic the case is actually made from. Maybe the resin code will tell you, but I suspect it'll just say 7 (other). If all else fails, style it out by sticking your own label over it :) From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 18 12:09:34 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:09:34 -0500 Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60349D39-A264-4856-8FB5-043F853B5F25@comcast.net> > On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:59 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 03:34:19PM +0100, jacob--- via cctalk wrote: >> I got a Apple cube here as part of a larger haul, at some point someone >> placed a bit of tape on the clear polycarbonate case, the tape is long >> gone but the yellow glue remains. > >> Am unsure about the hardness of it, if I could use sugar cubes to rub it >> off, anyone knows a scratch free way to get it off ? > > I assume you've already attempted to throw the usual household stuff at it > as if it was a phone or TV. If not, dig out the glass cleaner and microfibre > cloths and get onto that. > > In addition to the plausible suggestion elsethread of WD-40, I'd also give > it a gentle waft of a hairdryer (or heat gun set suitably-low) to try and > melt the glue without melting the plastic, and then it may be more amenable > to wiping-off. One other possibility is ethanol. But be sure to test that first, because it WILL damage plexiglas ("lucite"). That's about the only plastic it hurts, though. paul From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Nov 18 12:44:08 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:44:08 +0100 Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: <60349D39-A264-4856-8FB5-043F853B5F25@comcast.net> References: <60349D39-A264-4856-8FB5-043F853B5F25@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 01:09:34PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:59 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> I assume you've already attempted to throw the usual household stuff at it >> as if it was a phone or TV. If not, dig out the glass cleaner and microfibre >> cloths and get onto that. >> >> In addition to the plausible suggestion elsethread of WD-40, I'd also give >> it a gentle waft of a hairdryer (or heat gun set suitably-low) to try and >> melt the glue without melting the plastic, and then it may be more amenable >> to wiping-off. ... and then you snipped the following paragraph where I pointed out the case may be acrylic rather than polycarbonate, which is kind of important given this: > One other possibility is ethanol. But be sure to test that first, because > it WILL damage plexiglas ("lucite"). That's about the only plastic it > hurts, though. Plexiglas and Lucite are brand names for acrylic. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu Nov 18 19:23:38 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:23:38 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN References: <276b8289-4684-685c-35dc-91d8531f016d.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <276b8289-4684-685c-35dc-91d8531f016d@yahoo.com> Like many, I used an HP 2000 TSB system in high school to first learn about programming. Wanting to learn more than just BASIC, I soon discovered there was a program on the system that let you write and run FORTRAN programs. All these years later I can't remember anything more than that and haven't seen anything more on it since then until recently. While clearing out my storage space I came across an old binder with a photocopy of a manual. Looking though it I soon realized it was from my high school computer class and described the system for running FORTRAN. So now I have a name at least and a copy of a manual, but haven't yet found anything more and hope that someone here might be able to shine some light and supply more about it. The manual says it was known as OSMI 2000 FORTRAN and was a "series of programs written in the BASIC language which run short FORTRAN programs" on an HP 2000 BASIC system. Anyone heard of this before? Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From andreww591 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 21:08:58 2021 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 20:08:58 -0700 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 11/18/21, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > What happened? Looking back at my emails, the list was operating normally > until September 3. Then it just stopped. There were normal discussions > going on. There was no flood of spam. As far as I can tell, nothing occured > that would trigger a rage quit. > > Is the software and documentation that was on the site at least archived > elsewhere? Has anybody downloaded it and can maybe upload to archive.org? > > Mike > I downloaded some of the software and documentation from there a long time ago and still have it, although I didn't actually scrape the entire site. I can upload what I've got to archive.org. The disk image kit of NOS 2.8.7 with CYBIS has been mirrored at and most of the documentation for it is available from the Wayback Machine at From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 21:52:56 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 22:52:56 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 3:15 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2021, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ... The IBV11 can certainly keep up with the > > 6502 in the drive that's banging out the IEEE-488 protocol. > > Our Tektronix 4051 can talk to and use Commodore IEEE floppy drives for > mass storage. It has a custom ROM extension for it. That's really cool. There are a few non-Commodore systems that were able to talk to Commodore floppy drives. I didn't know the Tektronix 4051 was one of them. Do you know if it works at the flie level or the block level? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 18 22:42:27 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 20:42:27 -0800 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <2887e537-1c73-423b-aa15-2b576aee6d8c@sydex.com> On 11/18/21 7:08 PM, Andrew Warkentin via cctalk wrote: > On 11/18/21, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: >> What happened? Looking back at my emails, the list was operating normally >> until September 3. Then it just stopped. There were normal discussions >> going on. There was no flood of spam. As far as I can tell, nothing occured >> that would trigger a rage quit. >> >> Is the software and documentation that was on the site at least archived >> elsewhere? Has anybody downloaded it and can maybe upload to archive.org? >> >> Mike >> > > I downloaded some of the software and documentation from there a long > time ago and still have it, although I didn't actually scrape the > entire site. I can upload what I've got to archive.org. > > The disk image kit of NOS 2.8.7 with CYBIS has been mirrored at > and most of > the documentation for it is available from the Wayback Machine at > Have any SCOPE 3.1.6 or 3.3 deadstart images survived? If someone has an old 7-track deadstart tape, I'll be happy to image it. NOS is too new for me--I date from the time that it was KRONOS--and before that, MACE. --Chuck From andreww591 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 00:38:29 2021 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 23:38:29 -0700 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: <2887e537-1c73-423b-aa15-2b576aee6d8c@sydex.com> References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> <2887e537-1c73-423b-aa15-2b576aee6d8c@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/18/21, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Have any SCOPE 3.1.6 or 3.3 deadstart images survived? If someone has > an old 7-track deadstart tape, I'll be happy to image it. NOS is too > new for me--I date from the time that it was KRONOS--and before that, MACE. > > --Chuck > I think there was a SCOPE 3.3 deadstart tape that got imaged but I can't quite remember if it was posted on the wiki. I can't quite remember what some of the tape images I downloaded actually are (the names aren't always obvious and I unfortunately didn't organize them very well). Of the known images I have the closest thing to SCOPE 3.3 would be SCOPE/Hustler, although I'm not sure if the deadstart tape image works with the disk images. From dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 18 18:34:27 2021 From: dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net (David Williams) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:34:27 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN References: Message-ID: Like many, I used an HP 2000 TSB system in high school to first learn about programming. Wanting to learn more than just BASIC, I soon discovered there was a program on the system that let you write and run FORTRAN programs. All these years later I can't remember anything more than that and haven't seen anything more on it since then until recently. While clearing out my storage space I came across an old binder with a photocopy of a manual. Looking though it I soon realized it was from my high school computer class and described the system for running FORTRAN. So now I have a name at least and a copy of a manual, but haven't yet found anything more and hope that someone here might be able to shine some light and supply more about it. The manual says it was known as OSMI 2000 FORTRAN and was a "series of programs written in the BASIC language which run short FORTRAN programs" on an HP 2000 BASIC system. Anyone heard of this before? Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 02:35:41 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:35:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> David? ?Yes,? our? ?hp 2000? had? it? that? we? ct? at Computer? Exchange in phx. ?a? FORTRAN? that? was written in Basic? indeed!? it? was? an add on? not? something that? came? with the hp timeshare? system? ?you had? to procure? from? OMSI.?I have? some old? store? tapes? that? should? have? the OMSI? FORTRAN in a000 where? we kept? it. but? no? way? currently? to? get it? off? ?a? we? do not? have? a? tape? drive on a? 2000 system.... there is? fake 200? that? runs? on the? pc? as? an emulator but? ? ?heh!? no? tape? drive? and? due? to? ?old? company? files and? sp,e of ,my personal? files? ? i would NOT? loan? the? tape? out.?we? had a massive? bbs? ?system that? ran on the 2000 also? you? could? configure? 100? separate? bbs boards? with their own owners? and? ? set ups? amazing? at the time. plus? an online? chat? system? with? many levels? of? powers and super powers on it.?there? was also? a powerful email system? a? voting and polling? system and? more..? ??this? also? went? over to the? hp 3000 and we? enhanced? it? ? ?even? further???ok? I? will? quit? rambling ...?If? we? ever? ?get? a? way? to? read? tapes? ? for? the? 2000 and? 3000? i will be able? to get these? back on line? as? well as? extract? the OMSI FORTRAN?if? you are? not? going to keep the manual we? would? love it? ?for the SMECC museum's? HP? section in our? Museum Project? here in AZ.?i can be? reached at couryhouse at aol.com???? In a message dated 11/19/2021 12:28:20 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? Like many, I used an HP 2000 TSB system in high school to first learn about programming. Wanting to learn more than just BASIC, I soon discovered there was a program on the system that let you write and run FORTRAN programs. All these years later I can't remember anything more than that and haven't seen anything more on it since then until recently.?While clearing out my storage space I came across an old binder with a photocopy of a manual. Looking though it I soon realized it was from my high school computer class and described the system for running FORTRAN. So now I have a name at least and a copy of a manual, but haven't yet found anything more and hope that someone here might be able to shine some light and supply more about it.?The manual says it was known as OSMI 2000 FORTRAN and was a "series of programs written in the BASIC language which run short FORTRAN programs" on an HP 2000 BASIC system. Anyone heard of this before??Thanks.?David Williamswww.trailingedge.com From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 19 04:58:40 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:58:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 2021, it was written > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 3:15 AM Christian Corti via cctalk >> Our Tektronix 4051 can talk to and use Commodore IEEE floppy drives for >> mass storage. It has a custom ROM extension for it. > > That's really cool. There are a few non-Commodore systems that were > able to talk to Commodore floppy drives. I didn't know the Tektronix > 4051 was one of them. > > Do you know if it works at the flie level or the block level? As you wish, but normally at the file level. You can OPEN files, load BASIC programs with OLD and so on. The documentation is available here: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/tektronix/tek4051/ It's only in German, though. The disk routines are part of loadable extenstions that can be loaded into a RAM Backpack module. Christian From jacob at dahl-pind.dk Fri Nov 19 05:33:19 2021 From: jacob at dahl-pind.dk (jacob at dahl-pind.dk) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 12:33:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 2021, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 03:34:19PM +0100, jacob--- via cctalk wrote: > Brasso, T-Cut, or similar come in useful if you manage to scratch it anyway. > Test your technique on some matching scrap plastic first before moving on to > the case. You say "polycarbonate" but Wikipedia says "acrylic", and these > have quite different mechanical properties so you should verify which > plastic the case is actually made from. Maybe the resin code will tell you, > but I suspect it'll just say 7 (other). > >From all I have been dig up on it, its polycarbonat that was used for the outer casing, going on that it seems wd-40 would be a no go. I ended up tested with ethanol on the buttom feets, seing no ill effect after some time, I tested it on the glue and I started to see miscolouring of the papertowle, the glue was comming off. > If all else fails, style it out by sticking your own label over it :) :) good advice also if attempts had made it worse Thanks to all for advices -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From jacob at dahl-pind.dk Fri Nov 19 06:04:55 2021 From: jacob at dahl-pind.dk (jacob at dahl-pind.dk) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:04:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: Apple cube cleaning In-Reply-To: <8B972A76-72DC-400F-9A2F-C65A802155EC@avanthar.com> References: <5627d868-f9e4-f10a-4364-7abdb881b0c1@12bitsbest.com> <8B972A76-72DC-400F-9A2F-C65A802155EC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1865d3c9-387b-f426-2f95-3bdf4e632069@dahl-pind.dk> On Thu, 18 Nov 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:37 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> > This is a great question, it applies not just to the Cube, but to any Apple system of that vintage. > Plastics preservation is a huge topic, the art museums have alot of experience there, identifying that you have is the first hurdel. The earlier models I got Macintosh plus IIvi lc 475 Quadra 660AV do seems to hold up alot better than the later models 9500/150 7600/120 lc 630 the plastic especialy the typed used inside the cases is brittle like the SGI skins -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 19 07:30:56 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 07:30:56 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> David wrote... -------------------------------- The manual says it was known as OSMI 2000 FORTRAN and was a "series of programs written in the BASIC language which run short FORTRAN programs" on an HP 2000 BASIC system. Anyone heard of this before? -------------------------------- I still have a few hp2000 systems running. I haven't seen the fortran one yet but would be surprised if it wasn't on one of my HIB tapes. But I do remember having this on the HP2K systems I used in high school. There was also a free contributed library COBOL runtime that was the same deal (implemented in BASIC), and there was one in the CSL that also ran HP 2100 assembler. That last one I'd love to find just to pour through the listings ? Ed# I thought the only thing preventing you from getting one of your systems up was memory, which I offered to fix. You need a tape drive too? I may have a spare 7970B that needs work but I really need to get down there and do an inventory.... J From rich at sky-visions.com Fri Nov 19 07:25:26 2021 From: rich at sky-visions.com (Richard Cornwell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:25:26 -0500 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20211119082526.1a398f98@hobbit> Hi Andrew, As the one who discovered Scope 3.0+ source I still have images. Note this is a build from source not a original image. Rich -- ========================================================================== Richard Cornwell rich at sky-visions.com http://sky-visions.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-cornwell-991076107 ========================================================================== From lars at nocrew.org Fri Nov 19 08:44:07 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 14:44:07 +0000 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: <20211119082526.1a398f98@hobbit> (Richard Cornwell via cctalk's message of "Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:25:26 -0500") References: <20211119082526.1a398f98@hobbit> Message-ID: <7wsfvsqk7c.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Some ARPANET hosts were running SCOPE. Is there any ARPANET software that has been preserved? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 19 09:55:47 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:55:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple cube cleaning Message-ID: <20211119155547.B4B6E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > rom: Paul Koning > WD-40 is a good solvent to use for adhesives stuck to plastic. It's > unlikely to hurt the plastic but it will soften the glue. My go-to solvent for non-ionized glue residues (use water for ionized) on all sorts of materials has been, for many years, mineral spirits (US name; 'white spirit', in the UK): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit It scores highly on both i) 'doesn't harm underlying material' and ii) 'softens residues' axes. (I've mostly used it on books, to remove stickers, but my experience should transfer to use on computers.) > As always, check on a hidden part of the case to make sure the > particular plastic doesn't object to the stuff you're using. Sage, and important, advice for _any_ removal method. Noel From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Fri Nov 19 10:00:23 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:00:23 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <397587d1-41c8-40e0-9aa5-1e11fb997a1c@yahoo.com> On 11/19/2021 7:30 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > I still have a few hp2000 systems running. I haven't seen the fortran one yet but would be surprised if it wasn't on one of my HIB tapes. But I do remember having this on the HP2K systems I used in high school. There was also a free contributed library COBOL runtime that was the same deal (implemented in BASIC), and there was one in the CSL that also ran HP 2100 assembler. That last one I'd love to find just to pour through the listings ? Ah the COBOL one would be cool too. Would like to get these where I could at least run then in my SIMH setup sometime. I remembered running FORTRAN programs back in high school but nothing much else about it. Glad I at least found a copy of the manual now. > > Ed# I thought the only thing preventing you from getting one of your systems up was memory, which I offered to fix. You need a tape drive too? I may have a spare 7970B that needs work but I really need to get down there and do an inventory.... I keep hoping that one day you'll decide you need space and I'll be able to acquire one of your systems and then be able to enjoy my early days on real hardware again. :D For now SIMH fills a lot of that though need to figure out how to decode this box of old paper tapes from high school. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Fri Nov 19 10:05:54 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:05:54 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/2021 2:35 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >?if? you are? not? going to keep the manual we? would? love it? ?for the SMECC museum's? HP? section in our? Museum Project? here in AZ.?i can be? reached at couryhouse at aol.com Keep in mind it is not the actual manual itself but a photocopy of the manual in a really old binder. Currently I plan to scan it and post it up online but after that I don't know what I'll do with the binder and photocopy. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 19 10:11:44 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:11:44 -0800 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: <20211119082526.1a398f98@hobbit> References: <20211119082526.1a398f98@hobbit> Message-ID: <7e302001-bd40-a42e-350c-4f98ed13276b@sydex.com> On 11/19/21 5:25 AM, Richard Cornwell via cctalk wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > As the one who discovered Scope 3.0+ source I still have images. > Note this is a build from source not a original image. > SCOPE 3.0+ covers an enormous range of distributions. SCOPE 3.1.6 (my goto source for several years) is miles apart from SCOPE 3.4 (later rechristened NOS/BE). Even SCOPE 3.3 is significantly different from SCOPE 3.2. Pinning down what you actually have would be beneficial to the curious. Did anyone ever archive Purdue MACE? That was an interesting predecessor to KRONOS. (and I won't even discuss the "custom" OSes spun by the Special Systems Division from the SCOPE base. TCM/RA1 for example.) --Chuck From rich at sky-visions.com Fri Nov 19 08:50:22 2021 From: rich at sky-visions.com (Richard Cornwell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:50:22 -0500 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: <7wsfvsqk7c.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <20211119095022.10f339ba@hobbit> There was no internet software in the Update file I found. Rich -- ========================================================================== Richard Cornwell rich at sky-visions.com http://sky-visions.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-cornwell-991076107 ========================================================================== From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 11:10:53 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 12:10:53 -0500 Subject: HP 3056DL - looking for system tape image Message-ID: Hello everyone; The HP 3056DL was a datalogger consisting of an HP3421 and an HP85B; I bought one many years ago and that's how I got my HP85B and one of my HP3421's. I never restored the tape drive since I had an HP9121 floppy drive available early on (I still have it but it is in need of repair). The 3056DL? came with the manual, but without the tape containing the datalogging software.? Now that I am a happy owner of an EBTKS board, I am looking for an image of the original system tape for the 3056DL.? Does anybody have it by chance? Regards, Carlos. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 11:41:34 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:41:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> Trying to remembrr how many pages it was?Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 9:06 AM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: On 11/19/2021 2:35 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >?if? you are? not? going to keep the manual we? would? love it? ?for the SMECC museum's? HP? section in our? Museum Project? here in AZ.?i can be? reached at couryhouse at aol.com Keep in mind it is not the actual manual itself but a photocopy of the manual in a really old binder. Currently I plan to scan it and post it up online but after that I don't know what I'll do with the binder and photocopy. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 11:55:03 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <397587d1-41c8-40e0-9aa5-1e11fb997a1c@yahoo.com> References: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> <397587d1-41c8-40e0-9aa5-1e11fb997a1c@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <602404210.1551692.1637344503259@mail.yahoo.com> Yea I do remember hearing of the cobol.? We never had that.... that. The OMSI FORTRAN did work nut wecwere surecglad when we got the? HP3000. with REAL? FORTRAN? ON IT! NOTE? NONE OF THE OMSI? PROGRAMS WERE. NOT PART OF THE HP CONTRIBUTED LIBBARY. Ed# ? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 9:00 AM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: On 11/19/2021 7:30 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > I still have a few hp2000 systems running. I haven't seen the fortran one yet but would be surprised if it wasn't on one of my HIB tapes. But I do remember having this on the HP2K systems I used in high school. There was also a free contributed library COBOL runtime that was the same deal (implemented in BASIC), and there was one in the CSL that also ran HP 2100 assembler. That last one I'd love to find just to pour through the listings ? Ah the COBOL one would be cool too. Would like to get these where I could at least run then in my SIMH setup sometime. I remembered running FORTRAN programs back in high school but nothing much else about it. Glad I at least found a copy of the manual now. > > Ed# I thought the only thing preventing you from getting one of your systems up was memory, which I offered to fix. You need a tape drive too? I may have a spare 7970B that needs work but I really need to get down there and do an inventory.... I keep hoping that one day you'll decide you need space and I'll be able to acquire one of your systems and then be able to enjoy my early days on real hardware again. :D For now SIMH fills a lot of that though need to figure out how to decode this box of old paper tapes from high school. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From ethan at 757.org Fri Nov 19 12:31:47 2021 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:31:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Manual, Amiga, Broadcast Titler 2 Message-ID: <2bd2ba87-241e-be10-f5b-73fb3cde9257@757.org> Anyone have the manual for the Amiga software Broadcast Titler 2? If so, can I scan it and return it to you? Thanks - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Fri Nov 19 12:42:00 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 12:42:00 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/2021 11:41 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Trying to remembrr how many pages it was? Looking through what I have here I'm finding out this is actually more than one manual. Looks like three so far with each being between about 40-50 pages (single sided photocopies). First part is just labeled "Section One Standard FORTRAN". The next is "OMSI 2000 FORTRAN Answer Key and Instructor's Guide" and the third is "OMSI 2000 FORTRAN Sep 15th, 1973 Manual (Pre-Publication Proof)". Funny that I was just up in Portland last month and visited OMSI... David Williams www.trailingedge.com From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 12:52:27 2021 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 12:52:27 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4051/4052/4054 GPIB IEEE-488 Flash Drive Message-ID: I saw the recent posts on IEEE-488 on the PDP-11, and Christian's post on his Commodore GPIB floppy drive connection to the Tektronix 4051. I have been working for a couple of years on a GPIB/IEEE-488 Flash Drive for the Tektronix 4051, 4052 and 4054 computers, and am getting close to completion. My Tektronix 4050 GPIB Flash Drive emulates the Tektronix 4924 Tape Drive, which is supported by all the 4050 computers using secondary GPIB addresses for commands. This allows the flash drive to be used without needing an option ROM Pack. In particular, 4051 ROM Packs are not compatible with the 4052/4054 ROM Packs as the 4051 used a Motorola 6800 CPU and the 4052/4054 used a Tektronix custom 16-bit bit-slice CPU in order to improve performance 10x and double the memory capacity from 32KB to 64KB. The 4050 GPIB Flash Drive design uses an Arduino directly connected to my custom interface PCB with the GPIB connector, and a micro SD Flash board. I picked the 644-Narrow Arduino board by Pandauino as it has the Atmega644 processor which has twice the flash and RAM as the Arduino Nano and also has 5V I/O which can interface without buffers to the Tektronix 4050 GPIB port. The current code takes 40912 bytes of flash and 2798 bytes of RAM (more than the Nano) and supports PRINT, INPUT, READ, WRITE, OLD, SAVE, BOLD, and BSAVE. These commands have been tested on my 4052 and 4054A and my software development partner's 4051 computer. The flash drive also adds two secondary address commands not supported by the 4924: HEADER and CD. We are using the Arduino FAT32 library which supports long filenames, and create the filename to match the Tektronix tape file header format which includes a file number, file type (ASCII, BINARY, NEW or LAST), data type (PROGRAM or DATA) and the file size. We also take advantage of the extra spaces in that format to insert the file name as a comment - like the Tektronix 4050 BASIC program to add comments to the file header. The CD command is for changing the directory in the microSD card, and allows multiple different Tektronix 4050 DC300 tapes that I have recovered and posted on my github repository: https://github.com/mmcgraw74/Tektronix-4051-4052-4054-Program-Files to be stored in separate directories - while maintaining the original tape file numbers. More info and photos in my project thread on vcfed.org: https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/other/64990-tektronix-405x-gpib-flash-drive Monty McGraw From sieler at allegro.com Fri Nov 19 13:27:17 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:27:17 -0800 Subject: Getting files from HP 3000 tapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) Message-ID: Ed writes: ?If? we? ever? ?get? a? way? to? read? tapes? ? for? the? 2000 and? 3000? Well, we can "read" tapes for the HP 3000, and restore the files from HP 3000 backup tapes ... via Allegro Consultant's "ROSETTA STORE" product (of which I'm the primary author). I'm happy to restore some files for fellow collectors/enthusiasts (as time/energy permits) for free. The problem breaks down into two parts: 1. reading the tape Although Rosetta can read from a physical tape drive, that capability hasn't been tested for a decade (because of loss of hardware). Every user we know of uses Rosetta to restore files from tape images. There are a number of formats of tape images ... quite a number. Rosetta understands many tape image formats, including: AWS / HET STORE-to-disk SIMH Stromasys tape image Tapecopy format (Data Conversion Resources) (Oddly, I think it doesn't understand Allegro's own proprietary tape image format, which records a lot more information than others (e.g., read-retry information).) If you need an HP 3000 'STORE' tape recovered, and it's in a different format, let me know. 2. extracting files from the tape image Rosetta can read Classic HP 3000 STORE tapes (aka "CM STORE") of various versions, and MPE/iX STORE tapes (aka "NM STORE") of various versions (although 'interleave' has been tested only very lightly). By "read" I mean that it extracts the desired files, converts some (with some controls), and creates either a hierarchical directory structure matching the original, or a flattened one. What about IMAGE databases? On some platforms (Linux, HP-UX, Windows (?)), IMAGE databases can be converted to Eloquence databases (Eloquence is a product of Marxmeier software). On all platforms, IMAGE databases can be converted to .csv or .xml files. It can also handle SLT tapes, and provide some information on a few other kinds of tapes one might see from an HP 3000 (e.g., dump tapes, Serial Disc images), SPOOK tapes. Rosetta runs on Mac, Linux, HP-UX, and Windows. The HP-UX version can read older versions of ORBiT's Online Backup tapes (before they changed the tape record header format) TL;DR Ed: for the 3000, it's essentially a solved problem, and has been for over 20 years! Note: I also have a utility to restore files from (older?) Burroughs mainframe (e.g., B6700) backup tapes. From bbrown314 at comcast.net Fri Nov 19 14:39:24 2021 From: bbrown314 at comcast.net (bbrown314 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 14:39:24 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04a601d7dd85$8a50a9d0$9ef1fd70$@comcast.net> It looks like I may have the OMNI fortran on "mickey", my publicly accessible hp2000 tsb system emulation. telnet to mickey.publicvm.com ctl-J, ctl-m till you get PLEASE LOG IN HEL-T001,HP2000,1 I see some kind of cobol on the system library which may or may not be the cobol that was being talked about... I do see fortran which does seem to claim to be the OMNI fortran. Since you have the manuals, feel free to play around. If you need permissions changed or if it would be easier if the programs/files were put on a different account, just let me know...I'd be happy to copy/move things around for you. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of David Williams via cctalk Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 12:42 PM To: ED SHARPE ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN On 11/19/2021 11:41 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Trying to remembrr how many pages it was? Looking through what I have here I'm finding out this is actually more than one manual. Looks like three so far with each being between about 40-50 pages (single sided photocopies). First part is just labeled "Section One Standard FORTRAN". The next is "OMSI 2000 FORTRAN Answer Key and Instructor's Guide" and the third is "OMSI 2000 FORTRAN Sep 15th, 1973 Manual (Pre-Publication Proof)". Funny that I was just up in Portland last month and visited OMSI... David Williams www.trailingedge.com From bbrown314 at comcast.net Fri Nov 19 14:50:21 2021 From: bbrown314 at comcast.net (bbrown314 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 14:50:21 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <04a701d7dd87$120b4190$3621c4b0$@comcast.net> I think that at least part (maybe all) of the CSL hp2100 assembler might be on my public mickey hp2000 system. I see, for example, a program in the system library called ASMB Which is listed as HPASMB, HP 36806A ASMB part 4 of 4... Could this be part of what you are looking for? -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 7:31 AM To: 'David Williams' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN David wrote... -------------------------------- The manual says it was known as OSMI 2000 FORTRAN and was a "series of programs written in the BASIC language which run short FORTRAN programs" on an HP 2000 BASIC system. Anyone heard of this before? -------------------------------- I still have a few hp2000 systems running. I haven't seen the fortran one yet but would be surprised if it wasn't on one of my HIB tapes. But I do remember having this on the HP2K systems I used in high school. There was also a free contributed library COBOL runtime that was the same deal (implemented in BASIC), and there was one in the CSL that also ran HP 2100 assembler. That last one I'd love to find just to pour through the listings ? Ed# I thought the only thing preventing you from getting one of your systems up was memory, which I offered to fix. You need a tape drive too? I may have a spare 7970B that needs work but I really need to get down there and do an inventory.... J From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Fri Nov 19 14:56:05 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 14:56:05 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <04a601d7dd85$8a50a9d0$9ef1fd70$@comcast.net> References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> <04a601d7dd85$8a50a9d0$9ef1fd70$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4f8e0560-cc95-1dfa-7e21-5acf3f9fe7f8@yahoo.com> On 11/19/2021 2:39 PM, bbrown314 at comcast.net wrote: > It looks like I may have the OMNI fortran on "mickey", my publicly accessible hp2000 tsb system emulation. > > telnet to mickey.publicvm.com > ctl-J, ctl-m till you get PLEASE LOG IN > HEL-T001,HP2000,1 > > > I see some kind of cobol on the system library which may or may not be the cobol that was being talked about... > I do see fortran which does seem to claim to be the OMNI fortran. > > Since you have the manuals, feel free to play around. > > If you need permissions changed or if it would be easier if the programs/files were put on a different account, just let me know...I'd be happy to copy/move things around for you. > > -Bob Thanks, I may get on and check that out. But what I'm really interested in is finding copies to load on my SIMH TSB setup. But I may pop on your setup and see if it really is as I remember. For now I'm scanning the manuals. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Nov 19 16:17:32 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:17:32 -0500 Subject: IEEE-488 on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3fa6862c-4b31-d64e-98f1-83ecd6a22a3b@bitsavers.org> References: <3fa6862c-4b31-d64e-98f1-83ecd6a22a3b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/17/2021 8:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/21 3:10 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >> Disk images have been sent to Al. I assume he will eventually upload >> them to Bitsavers when he has time to do so... >> > > uploaded to > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages/RT11-V05.01.ZIP Wanted to thank both of you for responding to my original request for help.? I'm glad that the software and manuals are still around thanks to you two. Doug From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 16:27:15 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:27:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Getting files from HP 3000 tapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> It is solved when I have a tape drive at our physical location to restore our tapes to our system buy US.? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: Ed writes:? ??If? we? ever? ?get? a? way? to? read? tapes? ? for? the? 2000 and? 3000? Well, we can "read" tapes for the HP 3000, and restore the files from HP 3000 backup tapes ... via Allegro Consultant's "ROSETTA STORE" product (of which I'm the primary author). I'm happy to restore some files for fellow collectors/enthusiasts (as time/energy permits) for free. The problem breaks down into two parts: 1. reading the tape Although Rosetta can read from a physical tape drive, that capability hasn't been tested for a decade (because of loss of hardware). Every user we know of uses Rosetta to restore files from tape images. There are a number of formats of tape images ... quite a number. Rosetta understands many tape image formats, including:? ? AWS / HET ? ? STORE-to-disk ? ? SIMH ? ? Stromasys tape image ? ? Tapecopy format (Data Conversion Resources) (Oddly, I think it doesn't understand Allegro's own proprietary tape image format, which records a lot more information than others (e.g., read-retry information).) If? you need an HP 3000 'STORE' tape recovered, and it's in a different format, let me know. 2. extracting files from the tape image Rosetta can read Classic HP 3000 STORE tapes (aka "CM STORE") of various versions, and MPE/iX STORE tapes (aka "NM STORE") of various versions (although 'interleave' has been tested only very lightly). By "read" I mean that it extracts the desired files, converts some (with some controls), and creates either a hierarchical directory structure matching the original, or a flattened one. What about IMAGE databases?On some platforms (Linux, HP-UX, Windows (?)), IMAGE databases can be converted to Eloquence databases (Eloquence is a product of Marxmeier software).On all platforms, IMAGE databases can be converted to .csv or .xml files. It can also handle SLT tapes, and provide some information on a few other kinds of tapes one?might see from an HP 3000 (e.g., dump tapes, Serial Disc images), SPOOK tapes. Rosetta runs on Mac, Linux, HP-UX, and Windows. The HP-UX version can read older versions of ORBiT's Online Backup tapes (before they changed the tape record header format) TL;DR? ?Ed: for the 3000, it's essentially a solved problem, and has been for over 20 years! Note: I also have a utility to restore files from (older?) Burroughs mainframe (e.g., B6700) backup tapes. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 16:30:16 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:30:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <04a601d7dd85$8a50a9d0$9ef1fd70$@comcast.net> References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> <04a601d7dd85$8a50a9d0$9ef1fd70$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1960624971.458284.1637361016153@mail.yahoo.com> Yep if is says omsi fortran you are the lucky holder if a copy of it!? ?Congrats!;Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 1:39 PM, Bob brown via cctalk wrote: It looks like I may have the OMNI fortran on "mickey", my publicly accessible hp2000 tsb system emulation. telnet to mickey.publicvm.com ctl-J, ctl-m till you get PLEASE LOG IN HEL-T001,HP2000,1 I see some kind of cobol on the system library which may or may not be the cobol that was being talked about... I do see fortran which does seem to claim to be the OMNI fortran. Since you have the manuals, feel free to play around. If you need permissions changed or if it would be easier if the programs/files were put on a different account, just let me know...I'd be happy to copy/move things around for you. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of David Williams via cctalk Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 12:42 PM To: ED SHARPE ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN On 11/19/2021 11:41 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Trying to remembrr how many pages it was? Looking through what I have here I'm finding out this is actually more than one manual. Looks like three so far with each being between about 40-50 pages (single sided photocopies). First part is just labeled "Section One Standard FORTRAN". The next is "OMSI 2000 FORTRAN Answer Key and Instructor's Guide" and the third is "OMSI 2000 FORTRAN Sep 15th, 1973 Manual (Pre-Publication Proof)". Funny that I was just up in Portland last month and visited OMSI... David Williams www.trailingedge.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 19 16:43:09 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:43:09 -0600 Subject: Getting files from HP 3000 tapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> References: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000401d7dd96$d3fcec40$7bf6c4c0$@classiccmp.org> Ed wrote... -------- It is solved when I have a tape drive at our physical location to restore our tapes to our system buy US. -------- Perhaps in the interest of saving history for everyone else, you could meet in the middle (figuratively) with a less inward-looking mentality? Unless you're fine setting conditions that you're unlikely to meet and then the bits go to the ether......the loss is your fault yet everyone suffers. J From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 17:05:05 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 23:05:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <501766363.1339858.1637363105488@mail.yahoo.com> Jay have a tape drive. On the system... missing the disk. Some how we lost the 2883 and 2884 drive during business shutdown in 1993.? ?Currently the 2 Bay? system sits under glass? with a grouping of other early and 80s era HP PC product line.? ?YEA I WOULD WANT TO HAVE ON HAND AN EXTRA PROCESSER TO FOR SPARES.? ??AGE OLD COMPUTER EXCHANGE METHODOLOGY... NEVR START A PROJECT WITHOUT SPARES ON HAND! Maybe the future? is bringing up a fake 2000 in orig form... a PC? as well as a? 3000. With a scssi... tape drive? that thinks it can be a 7970b? for 2000 emulation? and 7970e for 3000 program emulation. ... and just crank both on and emulator...? But.....? it would? be fun to see the 2000 come alive in some form before I croak? and turn the keys of the museum to the next gen.Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 6:31 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: David wrote... -------------------------------- The manual says it was known as OSMI 2000 FORTRAN and was a "series of programs written in the BASIC language which run short FORTRAN programs" on an HP 2000 BASIC system. Anyone heard of this before? -------------------------------- I still have a few hp2000 systems running. I haven't seen the fortran one yet but would be surprised if it wasn't on one of my HIB tapes. But I do remember having this on the HP2K systems I used in high school. There was also a free contributed library COBOL runtime that was the same deal (implemented in BASIC), and there was one in the CSL that also ran HP 2100 assembler. That last one I'd love to find just to pour through the listings ? Ed# I thought the only thing preventing you from getting one of your systems up was memory, which I offered to fix. You need a tape drive too? I may have a spare 7970B that needs work but I really need to get down there and do an inventory.... J From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 17:40:05 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 23:40:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <000401d7dd96$d3fcec40$7bf6c4c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> <000401d7dd96$d3fcec40$7bf6c4c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <190513968.1623895.1637365205065@mail.yahoo.com> AH.... NO! JAY! To compare Jay.. it was like if our system was your cell phone your pcs and your business computer contents all in one system. I? doubt you would release? that into public hands. I used our 2000 and 3000. As my personal. PC Jay!? Letters to my family. Notes to myself... poetry.... articles I wrote for 5. Years? for. THE CHRONICLE (HP CENTRIC NEWS PAPER)? anything? a computer was used for is how I always used our systems.? ??ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING! These back ups contain all of all of all!?? Not just a dump of a bbs and multi user spacecraft games? and most of all the fun stuff. Now if you do not understand my wish for personal privacy? we need to recalibrate you.? (GRIN!) so there? you go! Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 3:43 PM, jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: Ed wrote... -------- It is solved when I have a tape drive at our physical location to restore our tapes to our system buy US. -------- Perhaps in the interest of saving history for everyone else, you could meet in the middle (figuratively) with a less inward-looking mentality? Unless you're fine setting conditions that you're unlikely to meet and then the bits go to the ether......the loss is your fault yet everyone suffers. J From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 19:12:56 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 01:12:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <190513968.1623895.1637365205065@mail.yahoo.com> References: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> <000401d7dd96$d3fcec40$7bf6c4c0$@classiccmp.org> <190513968.1623895.1637365205065@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9556962.1636568.1637370776762@mail.yahoo.com> Heh!? Now that I have calmed down..I? do wish I had kept a? separate dump of? just bbs systems. For 2000 and 3000. And the multi user space war game. Actually the 3000 full volume of everything I ever did or said? was discovered in the garage at home 1? year or maybe more back.? The 800 bpi? tapes for 2000 I knew I had somewhere. But onlyvtefound again last winter and...? in reality it was a miracle they were? saved. We haveca Hp 918 that? was recently put of service? And a hp 37 that I assume that still bopys boots? that were graciously? contributed? but the big stumbling block is. TAPEDRIVES!? ?WELL.I HAVE A DDS-3 CART ON 918 BUT NO WORKEE WITH REEL TAPES @ I AM GETTING PRETTY. OLD NOW? BUT IN THE FEW YEARS I HAVE LEFT WOULD LIKE TO GET BOTH BBS SYSTEMS BACK OUT THERE? THE 2000 VERSION? HAD A REGULAR VERSION. THAT MIGRATED INTO A FANITSY? THEMED VERSION BOTH SHOLD BE ON 800 bpi TAPE(This tape set had hardest storage conditions? The 3000 version? should gave? both converted versions of the 2000? bbs's. Plus The Forum/3000. massive even more? and no non nonsense? but even more? ?massave in features and refinement.? Security is totally killer on all.There us no way I would be able to recreate? these systems? now due to some brain slowing? but if you have not noticed? I do not type well at all.. part coordination? part tfu hand and finger movement( thanks to those who take time to decipher? what I type ( I worked had to make? this and previous message? readable ) Anyway seems maybe easiest way? is with simulators? once we get a 800 1600 built tape drive on it.. As always any help ...ideas..hardware appreciated?But keep in mind.? Transfer has to take place HERE!Ed Sharpe archivist For SMECC ? From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 20:05:56 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 02:05:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Ogle hpq00q0 In-Reply-To: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d7dd49$af3312b0$0d993810$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1620358837.1636146.1637373956086@mail.yahoo.com> No. Jay? thought answered this missing disk. A. Hp 2883 20meg 10 platter high nice glass top could see heads going in and out. Fun!? Also had 2884 slave drive to it. Google hp2000 and smecc for old pix from the 80s. Would not start? up machines unless I had spare 2100 processor.?? System is on a glassed in area with lots of 80s era hppc related things? my business.? Computer Exchange sold.Ah the 80s!? It was the time to be in the biz! Gaint walk in display case but3 very very filled?Last I looked there was acn off brand? APL LAPTOP? THAT USEF A MICRO CASSETTE FOR MASS STORAGE!would have to clean out and get real power? and a temp air duct into there?Maybe hp 2000emulator and a scssi tape drive?? ?The 3000 tape has converted? versions? and the final. FORUM/3000? but those will not run on 2000..?And the 2000 I think is the one I get the most request for? Ed#Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 6:31 AM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: Ed# I thought the only thing preventing you from getting one of your systems up was memory, which I offered to fix. You need a tape drive too? I may have a spare 7970B that needs work but I really need to get down there and do an inventory.... J From gavin at learn.bio Fri Nov 19 20:17:37 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:17:37 -0600 Subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <9556962.1636568.1637370776762@mail.yahoo.com> References: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> <000401d7dd96$d3fcec40$7bf6c4c0$@classiccmp.org> <190513968.1623895.1637365205065@mail.yahoo.com> <9556962.1636568.1637370776762@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ed, Maybe you could take a vacation to Oregon and meet up with Keven Miller and get him to convert your tapes to SIMH format for you while you watch and then wipe any intermediate storage to your satisfaction. Or just come up with some sort of non-disclosure agreement that would meet your requirements (bonus points for using a 1980s HP Confidential Disclosure Agreement form (which no manager at HP could ever fill out correctly)). http://www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm And then when you get home you can make a nice virtual simulated Series III and restore whatever you want to play with. Beware of the possibility of delamination and other issues for old 9-track tapes depending on age/manufacturer/storage. Another reason it might be good to get help from someone with experience in reading very old tapes. It would be fun to see the Forum up and running again. Gavin On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 7:13 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Heh! Now that I have calmed down..I do wish I had kept a separate dump of just bbs systems. For 2000 and 3000. And the multi user space war game. > Actually the 3000 full volume of everything I ever did or said was discovered in the garage at home 1 year or maybe more back. > The 800 bpi tapes for 2000 I knew I had somewhere. But onlyvtefound again last winter and... in reality it was a miracle they were saved. > We haveca Hp 918 that was recently put of service And a hp 37 that I assume that still bopys boots that were graciously contributed but the big stumbling block is. TAPEDRIVES! WELL.I HAVE A DDS-3 CART ON 918 BUT NO WORKEE WITH REEL TAPES @ > I AM GETTING PRETTY. OLD NOW BUT IN THE FEW YEARS I HAVE LEFT WOULD LIKE TO GET BOTH BBS SYSTEMS BACK OUT THERE > THE 2000 VERSION HAD A REGULAR VERSION. THAT MIGRATED INTO A FANITSY THEMED VERSION BOTH SHOLD BE ON 800 bpi TAPE(This tape set had hardest storage conditions > The 3000 version should gave both converted versions of the 2000 bbs's. Plus The Forum/3000. massive even more and no non nonsense but even more massave in features and refinement. > Security is totally killer on all.There us no way I would be able to recreate these systems now due to some brain slowing but if you have not noticed I do not type well at all.. part coordination part tfu hand and finger movement( thanks to those who take time to decipher what I type ( I worked had to make this and previous message readable ) > Anyway seems maybe easiest way is with simulators once we get a 800 1600 built tape drive on it.. > As always any help ...ideas..hardware appreciated But keep in mind. Transfer has to take place HERE!Ed Sharpe archivist For SMECC > > > > > > From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Fri Nov 19 20:21:07 2021 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:21:07 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation Message-ID: The recent discussion of the sudden disappearance of DtCyber and the various classic CDC software to run on it from the Internet has got me thinking about just how precarious so much of computer history is in. So much of what's out there online (and in person) today is at risk just vanishing if whoever maintains the archive either loses interest (lots of projects over the years succumb to this) , or rage quits (see the expungement of DtCyber and Controlfreaks from the internet), or ends up dying without having made proper arrangements (See the sad fate of the Living Computer Museum, which was killed by its new owners as soon as COVID gave them an excuse to do so) What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. Mike From ian at platinum.net Fri Nov 19 20:30:11 2021 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:30:11 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: New owners of LCM? I thought Vulcan was the owner all along? Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 19, 2021, at 6:21 PM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > > ?or ends up > dying without having made proper arrangements (See the sad fate of the > Living Computer Museum, which was killed by its new owners as soon as COVID > gave them an excuse to do so) > > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > Mike From steven at malikoff.com Fri Nov 19 20:33:50 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:33:50 +1000 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Michael asked > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but not always so I think it does help. Steve. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 19 20:45:41 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 02:45:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Smecc hp 2000 enclosed in glass being used as a backdrop for phx business journal cio of the year award. [PDF]Back to the Futuremedia.bizj.us/view/archive/phoenix/pdf/CIOs 2012 Final.pdf References: <1844558460.187973.1637376341059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1844558460.187973.1637376341059@mail.yahoo.com> http://media.bizj.us/view/archive/phoenix/pdf/CIOs%202012%20Final.pdf Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 00:03:45 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 00:03:45 -0600 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: iror everything guys make copies and stash On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 8:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Michael asked > > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and > submit the > URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but > not always > so I think it does help. > > Steve. > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 20 00:23:44 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 22:23:44 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <1d3be0df-6834-4fc0-badd-3a61ad2560c7@sydex.com> On 11/19/21 6:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Michael asked >> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our >> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the > URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but not always > so I think it does help. To me, it's mind-boggling thinking of the stuff that has been lost--even a lot of my own work while under employment. Unless tapes mysteriously turn up, it's all gone. Much of human history, it seems, has been written in drifting sand. But it's always been thus. --Chuck From lars at nocrew.org Sat Nov 20 01:03:06 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 07:03:06 +0000 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: (Michael Kerpan via cctalk's message of "Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:21:07 -0500") References: Message-ID: <7wbl2fqpg5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Michael Kerpan wrote: > (See the sad fate of the Living Computer Museum, which was killed by > its new owners as soon as COVID gave them an excuse to do so) It's not killed. It's still there, but not open to the public. They continue to offer remote access to vintage systems. Some are now running on emuators. From w9gb at icloud.com Fri Nov 19 16:51:45 2021 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:51:45 -0600 Subject: Ken Gielow passed away Message-ID: Ken Gielow sold his Z80DIS (Z80 disassembler) for CP/M 80 as shareware ($20) thru his Butler, PA firm (SLR Systems), until the end of the 1980s. I left Slippery Rock (just north of Butler) in the summer 1983 (about time of release). ? Info World, October 24, 1983 Software Review by Steve Mann https://books.google.com/books?id=rS8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA41&dq=Z80DIS&source=bl&ots=I-KiMDngQS&sig=ACfU3U0pcUuHUcrhaLfuhAIL-BdVoL4NNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiL7KuYvqX0AhVSlGoFHYWhAK4Q6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=Z80DIS&f=false greg == Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:23:06 -0800 From: Stan Sieler To: "General Discussion: On/Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Ken Gielow passed away Last week, Ken Gielow passed away. He was the author of the Z80DIS disassembler, which was both interactive and used a form of "artificial intelligence" to cleverly disassemble Z80 code. From ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 01:30:05 2021 From: ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com (Joerg Hoppe) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 08:30:05 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Diagnostic Program Listings Micro Fiche Scans Message-ID: <95d9856a-a904-694b-7d3a-1482936494a0@gmail.com> Hi Friends, Micro fiche scans of the PDP-11 XXDP listings are online now: http://files.retrocmp.com/fichescanner/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp11/microfiche/Diagnostic_Program_Listings/ You can insert this into your bitsaver mirror tree with $ cd $ wget --recursive --level 0 --no-host-directories --cut-dirs 2 --no-parent -R index.htm?* http://files.retrocmp.com/fichescanner/bitsavers/ You need about 130 GB space for 1600+ listings. A Win10 version of wget is at http://files.retrocmp.com/wget-1.21.2-win32.zip In 2016 I posted a batch of listings, which was archived at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microfiche/ftp.j-hoppe.de/... These were repacked and included in the above distribution. So despite I'm very pleased to see my name on bitsavers: Please discard the "ftp.j-hoppe.de" directory now ! For each listing there are 3 files: - a "gray" pdf in archive quality. - a highly compressed "bw" pdf, about 10x smaller. - an ASCII *.dat with context and title strip data, prepared for database import. The pdfs contain pictures of their fiches as title pages. The quality of the fiches is everything between "brilliant" and "awful" DEC made every possible error while preparating them, the list is endless. My favorite bug: Title strips glued to the wrong fiche (corrected here). I even tried OCR but the results where poor. "ocrmypdf" (= "tesseract + pdf") seems a good tool, but the fiches are too problematic for a fully automatic run. You have to dive into tesseracts training procedures. See https://hub.docker.com/r/jbarlow83/ocrmypdf/ Some project links: http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches https://youtu.be/X22gr5THBRA https://hackaday.com/2021/09/17/automatic-microfiche-scanner-digitizes-docs/ By the way: This project ate up lots of (physical and personal) resources. I'll will scan other document sets in the future, maybe begging for a donation then. Enjoy! Joerg From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 20 04:22:19 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:22:19 +0000 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 8:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk > >> Michael asked >>> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our >>> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. >> Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and >> submit the >> URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but >> not always >> so I think it does help. One of the DtCyber pages was archived, but when you drill down to the sources, those pages are not there. So you have to watch out for missing bits when you archive a website. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 20 05:28:35 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:28:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> <000401d7dd96$d3fcec40$7bf6c4c0$@classiccmp.org> <190513968.1623895.1637365205065@mail.yahoo.com> <9556962.1636568.1637370776762@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1614784646.1672002.1637407715529@mail.yahoo.com> Gavin !Indeed Keven? is great? at 3000 stuff!I? would? love? to? visit? ?him? ?but? I do not? transport? ?well? any more alas......?Simulated? series III? ?yes? more power efficient than? the? real? series III?But? we? still seek? a? eal one? for? display!Ed#? In a message dated 11/19/2021 7:17:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, gavin at learn.bio writes:? Ed, Maybe you could take a vacation to Oregon and meet up with Keven Miller and get him to convert your tapes to SIMH format for you while you watch and then wipe any intermediate storage to your satisfaction. Or just come up with some sort of non-disclosure agreement that would meet your requirements (bonus points for using a 1980s HP Confidential Disclosure Agreement form (which no manager at HP could ever fill out correctly)). http://www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm And then when you get home you can make a nice virtual simulated Series III and restore whatever you want to play with. Beware of the possibility of delamination and other issues for old 9-track tapes depending on age/manufacturer/storage. Another reason it might be good to get help from someone with experience in reading very old tapes. It would be fun to see the Forum up and running again. Gavin On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 7:13 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Heh!? Now that I have calmed down..I? do wish I had kept a? separate dump of? just bbs systems. For 2000 and 3000. And the multi user space war game. > Actually the 3000 full volume of everything I ever did or said? was discovered in the garage at home 1? year or maybe more back. > The 800 bpi? tapes for 2000 I knew I had somewhere. But onlyvtefound again last winter and...? in reality it was a miracle they were? saved. > We haveca Hp 918 that? was recently put of service? And a hp 37 that I assume that still bopys boots? that were graciously? contributed? but the big stumbling block is. TAPEDRIVES!? WELL.I HAVE A DDS-3 CART ON 918 BUT NO WORKEE WITH REEL TAPES @ > I AM GETTING PRETTY. OLD NOW? BUT IN THE FEW YEARS I HAVE LEFT WOULD LIKE TO GET BOTH BBS SYSTEMS BACK OUT THERE > THE 2000 VERSION? HAD A REGULAR VERSION. THAT MIGRATED INTO A FANITSY? THEMED VERSION BOTH SHOLD BE ON 800 bpi TAPE(This tape set had hardest storage conditions > The 3000 version? should gave? both converted versions of the 2000? bbs's. Plus The Forum/3000. massive even more? and no non nonsense? but even more? massave in features and refinement. > Security is totally killer on all.There us no way I would be able to recreate? these systems? now due to some brain slowing? but if you have not noticed? I do not type well at all.. part coordination? part tfu hand and finger movement( thanks to those who take time to decipher? what I type ( I worked had to make? this and previous message? readable ) > Anyway seems maybe easiest way? is with simulators? once we get a 800 1600 built tape drive on it.. > As always any help ...ideas..hardware appreciated But keep in mind.? Transfer has to take place HERE!Ed Sharpe archivist For SMECC > > > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 06:26:49 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:26:49 +0100 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 03:30, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote: > > New owners of LCM? I thought Vulcan was the owner all along? His younger sister Jody used to be the deputy at Vulcan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jody_Allen She left in 2014: https://www.geekwire.com/2014/jody-allen-leaving-vulcan/ It was meant to be a sabbatical: https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/techflash/2014/10/vulcan-ceo-jody-allen-steps-down-amid-controversy.html But when poor old Paul Allen died in 2018, Jody took control of Vulcan and his >$20Bn fortune. She started firing people in 2019: https://www.geekwire.com/2019/paul-allens-vulcan-holding-company-cutting-jobs-sources-say/ And they sold off his yacht: https://www.sportscasting.com/you-can-buy-seattle-sports-mogul-paul-allens-superyacht-plus-his-submarine-for-325-million/ The sports team was left to run itself: https://thespun.com/nfl/nfc-west/seattle-seahawks/report-pete-carroll-seattle-seahawks-owner-coach But of course COVID-19 changed everything: https://www.seahawks.com/news/vulcan-inc-and-the-paul-g-allen-family-foundation-announce-efforts-to-support-se Vulcan Productions shut down: https://www.vulcanproductions.com/who-we-are Then this year, (largely) post-COVID, the Allen Institute for Artificial Intelligence (AI2) took over: https://www.geekwire.com/2021/allen-institute-ai-takes-vulcans-portfolio-environmental-big-data-projects/ https://finance.yahoo.com/news/allen-institute-ai-takes-over-190008690.html -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Nov 20 06:56:13 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 07:56:13 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Michael asked >> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our >> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the > URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but not always > so I think it does help. > And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is gone, too? I remember hearing how the web was going to make everything perpetual. And yet the list of things that have disappeared just gets longer and longer. bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 09:47:14 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:47:14 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: I could go on and on about this myself but consider this one... 200 years from now, if you wanted to view family photos from the past your ancestors would have to have passed them down electronically from system to system, file format converted for all of that time. It's like each generation will have to have a "family archivist" role. Maybe paper photos will survive longer, but it will be clear that there are few paper photos after 2000 or so, when electronic photos became the norm. Archive.org, bitsavers.org, etc will all have to be converted too. I say take it upon yourself to preserve whatever it is you deem worthy and make a plan and prepare for how it will be maintained after you're gone. Family, computer, documents, whatever. Don't rely on someone else to do it for you. All of the riches in the world did not prevent (and may have actually caused) the dilemma the LCM is in now. I am sure a lot of it will be saved and probably most will be preserved but not all. And that's basically how it is, history fades away, even the big things. It takes a lot of foresight and teaching the young folks about the importance of learning from the past. I don't know about you, but there aren't too many others in my family who care about computer history...I wonder if any of what I have preserved will be around even 100 years from now. Bill On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 7:56 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > Michael asked > >> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > >> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > > > Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org > and submit the > > URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, > but not always > > so I think it does help. > > > > And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is > gone, too? > > I remember hearing how the web was going to make everything perpetual. > And yet the list of things that have disappeared just gets longer and > longer. > > bill > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 20 10:15:17 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:15:17 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Diagnostic Program Listings Micro Fiche Scans In-Reply-To: <95d9856a-a904-694b-7d3a-1482936494a0@gmail.com> References: <95d9856a-a904-694b-7d3a-1482936494a0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c7ac5d3-92de-af84-7db5-c4d800c9c305@pico-systems.com> On 11/20/21 1:30 AM, Joerg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > Hi Friends, > > Micro fiche scans of the PDP-11 XXDP listings are online now: Wow, took a quick look.? The scans are likely not good enough to run through an OCR program, but certainly good enough to read through when trying to understand what a program is doing. Thanks! From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Nov 20 10:37:49 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:37:49 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: > Archive.org, bitsavers.org, etc will all have to be converted too. I say > take it upon yourself to preserve whatever it is you deem worthy and make a > plan and prepare for how it will be maintained after you're gone. Family, > computer, documents, whatever. Don't rely on someone else to do it for > you. This was an interesting topic when I was at Science magazine: How to preserve the archives. Everyone wants to get your paper archives, rip them up, "scan them" and store them. However our first vendor who had only the digital stuff we made in the 1980's onward went and had a "hard disk failure" in their RAID drive that wasn't detected for years. Turns out all the thumbnails were all that was left; fortunately we still had the backup tapes but those easily could have been tossed. Now I'm sure the "Google project" archived all the paper stuff but Google will eventually go away just like Jeeves, MySpace, Yahoo Groups, and so forth. Or they may forget and "lose" them in which case the data is gone forever. But what do you store it on? Big optical laserdiscs (80's)? Those had bit rot after 20 years or so. Magtape? Sure, find the 7 track tapes from Apollo and find a 7 track tape reader. Taravan/QIC02/Exabyte Monster/Contemporary Cybernetics 8505? Good luck finding a working unit and if you took advantage of hardware compression you'd better have the module.... Best way to store? Paper. I recommended putting everything on baked tablets and burying it in the center of a desert, they didn't go that way but it's a valuable option. Well, until someone digs it up, puts it in the "National Museum" and ISIS/Taliban/the usual book burning bastards burns the place down.... C From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Nov 20 10:40:24 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:40:24 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <677a2f16-aa92-f44b-ce70-6bc2d97c16a8@alembic.crystel.com> On 11/20/2021 10:47 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > All of the riches in the world did not prevent (and may have actually > caused) the dilemma the LCM is in now. I am sure a lot of it will be saved > and probably most will be preserved but not all. And that's basically how > it is, history fades away, even the big things. It takes a lot of > foresight and teaching the young folks about the importance of learning > from the past. One of these days I really need to write down the whole history of AI.AI.MIT.EDU, MC, LSD, and how I had to rescue it not once, twice, but three times from loading docks where it would have been put in the trash. Each time I had to show up with a U-Hack to rescue it and find another home where it would be "saved forever".... That's why I wonder about it at LCM: I would so not be surprised if I got a call from a trash company saying "Hey, we found this note in a large pile of metal crap, can you be here in 12 hours so we don't have to drag this thing to the dump? We're lazy and would appreciate the beers more" But what happens when I am dead? I can't be the guardian of that thing forever.... CZ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 10:55:32 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:55:32 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <677a2f16-aa92-f44b-ce70-6bc2d97c16a8@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <677a2f16-aa92-f44b-ce70-6bc2d97c16a8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family photos. That is the only practical way to preserve things or than if the original paper/photo/tape exists and is still readable. Extending to vintage computing, there will always have to be a community of archivists. B On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:40 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > On 11/20/2021 10:47 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > All of the riches in the world did not prevent (and may have actually > > caused) the dilemma the LCM is in now. I am sure a lot of it will be > saved > > and probably most will be preserved but not all. And that's basically > how > > it is, history fades away, even the big things. It takes a lot of > > foresight and teaching the young folks about the importance of learning > > from the past. > > One of these days I really need to write down the whole history of > AI.AI.MIT.EDU, MC, LSD, and how I had to rescue it not once, twice, but > three times from loading docks where it would have been put in the > trash. Each time I had to show up with a U-Hack to rescue it and find > another home where it would be "saved forever".... > > That's why I wonder about it at LCM: I would so not be surprised if I > got a call from a trash company saying "Hey, we found this note in a > large pile of metal crap, can you be here in 12 hours so we don't have > to drag this thing to the dump? We're lazy and would appreciate the > beers more" > > But what happens when I am dead? I can't be the guardian of that thing > forever.... > > CZ > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 20 12:38:18 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:38:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Diagnostic Program Listings Micro Fiche Scans In-Reply-To: <4c7ac5d3-92de-af84-7db5-c4d800c9c305@pico-systems.com> References: <95d9856a-a904-694b-7d3a-1482936494a0@gmail.com> <4c7ac5d3-92de-af84-7db5-c4d800c9c305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 20, 2021, at 11:15 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/20/21 1:30 AM, Joerg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Friends, >> >> Micro fiche scans of the PDP-11 XXDP listings are online now: > > Wow, took a quick look. The scans are likely not good enough to run through an OCR program, but certainly good enough to read through when trying to understand what a program is doing. I only tried tesseract once, years ago, and it wasn't useful at all for the particular material I gave it. Quite possibly it's better now. Instead, I ended up buying a commercial OCR program, "Fine Reader" from ABBYY, which has served me well. I used it to read CDC 6600 wire list scans, which it did well. I also tried to make it do the THE source listings in the Knuth archive; those are hopeless for OCR partly due to the overprinting convention used, and required manual entry. So... it might be worth a try feeding some of those images to current commercial OCR programs. FineReader has a "learn" capability that does a decent job of making it deal with the peculiarities of a particular piece of source material. paul From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 12:38:30 2021 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:38:30 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about all members here buy some big disks and take part in a number of curated torrents? Publicize torrent health so it?s highly visible. Organize custodians (preferably using folks who are already doing an excellent job). Cost of access to the archives is that the prospective user can evidence that he?s helping sustain the collection. Sure there are holes in this plan. But it?d be a good actionable start while we?re on the topic and it can be adjusted. > On Nov 20, 2021, at 11:55, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > ?That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who > periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family > photos. That is the only practical way to preserve things or than if the > original paper/photo/tape exists and is still readable. Extending to > vintage computing, there will always have to be a community of archivists. > B > >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:40 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> On 11/20/2021 10:47 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> All of the riches in the world did not prevent (and may have actually >>> caused) the dilemma the LCM is in now. I am sure a lot of it will be >> saved >>> and probably most will be preserved but not all. And that's basically >> how >>> it is, history fades away, even the big things. It takes a lot of >>> foresight and teaching the young folks about the importance of learning >>> from the past. >> >> One of these days I really need to write down the whole history of >> AI.AI.MIT.EDU, MC, LSD, and how I had to rescue it not once, twice, but >> three times from loading docks where it would have been put in the >> trash. Each time I had to show up with a U-Hack to rescue it and find >> another home where it would be "saved forever".... >> >> That's why I wonder about it at LCM: I would so not be surprised if I >> got a call from a trash company saying "Hey, we found this note in a >> large pile of metal crap, can you be here in 12 hours so we don't have >> to drag this thing to the dump? We're lazy and would appreciate the >> beers more" >> >> But what happens when I am dead? I can't be the guardian of that thing >> forever.... >> >> CZ >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 20 12:46:00 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:46:00 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <9011E382-96D5-4352-A090-C90FF92CA88E@comcast.net> > On Nov 20, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> Michael asked >>> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our >>> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. >> Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the >> URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but not always >> so I think it does help. > > And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is > gone, too? > > I remember hearing how the web was going to make everything perpetual. > And yet the list of things that have disappeared just gets longer and > longer. The web can make things perpetual if they are stored redundantly and in a distributed fashion. But anything centralized is just as vulnerable as any centralized copy ever was, whether from risk of fire or flood, or abandonment. And in the case of digital data the added complication is the loss of the necessary technology. The Long Now Foundation has done some good thinking about this; some others have as well. There's a long-lived software achival concept with "Rosetta" in its name that might be worth more attention. One of the best reasons why GIT is good is that everyone has a full record. With Subversion of CVS, you just have the one revision you have currently checked out, but GIT gives you (as the command indicates) a full clone of the entire repository. So suppose that, say, GitHub suddenly goes belly up -- for any item in their collection that anyone anywhere has cloned, nothing is lost. The same goes for any other project that uses GIT, such as some of what the Free Software Foundation keeps. I'd say more of us need to be more paranoid about mirroring stuff. Is there an archive.org mirror? I don't know. There are bitsavers mirrors, which is a good thing to know, but not all classic computer stuff is in bitsavers. What about Wikipedia? There's Infogalactic, but that's a fork, not a mirror. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Nov 20 12:59:20 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:59:20 -0700 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <9011E382-96D5-4352-A090-C90FF92CA88E@comcast.net> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <9011E382-96D5-4352-A090-C90FF92CA88E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:46 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Nov 20, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > >> Michael asked > >>> What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > >>> history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > >> Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org > and submit the > >> URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, > but not always > >> so I think it does help. > > > > And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is > > gone, too? > > > > I remember hearing how the web was going to make everything perpetual. > > And yet the list of things that have disappeared just gets longer and > > longer. > > The web can make things perpetual if they are stored redundantly and in a > distributed fashion. But anything centralized is just as vulnerable as any > centralized copy ever was, whether from risk of fire or flood, or > abandonment. And in the case of digital data the added complication is the > loss of the necessary technology. > > The Long Now Foundation has done some good thinking about this; some > others have as well. There's a long-lived software achival concept with > "Rosetta" in its name that might be worth more attention. > > One of the best reasons why GIT is good is that everyone has a full > record. With Subversion of CVS, you just have the one revision you have > currently checked out, but GIT gives you (as the command indicates) a full > clone of the entire repository. So suppose that, say, GitHub suddenly goes > belly up -- for any item in their collection that anyone anywhere has > cloned, nothing is lost. The same goes for any other project that uses > GIT, such as some of what the Free Software Foundation keeps. > You can mirror both svn and CVS. Lots of projects that used them did that so there are thousands of copies of FreeBSD's svn and CVS trees about. Further, git let's you do a shallow clone, which tosses history. What git does is allow for local changes and the default is to mirror the whole thing. Having recovered from a disk failure that took out a svn repo in the time it took to copy the files back is nice, but it did take more planning. Git has a lot of cool features (it's why FreeBSD moved to it), but you are misstating the defaults are always on and that others can't do this. What has helped a lot since source history was lost in the 80s and 90s is the adaptation of SCM, more disciplined use of it and the expansion of disks to reduce pressure to purge old stuff and the expectations that SCM is available to all... the early cowboy days of Linux, FSF and others has been replaced by better engineering practices. Things still can be lost, but it's much harder now... until things are really old... I'd say more of us need to be more paranoid about mirroring stuff. Is > there an archive.org mirror? I don't know. There are bitsavers mirrors, > which is a good thing to know, but not all classic computer stuff is in > bitsavers. What about Wikipedia? There's Infogalactic, but that's a fork, > not a mirror. > Yea, I struggle with what to do with my rainbow material for the long haul. Warner > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 20 13:06:37 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 19:06:37 +0000 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <9011E382-96D5-4352-A090-C90FF92CA88E@comcast.net> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <9011E382-96D5-4352-A090-C90FF92CA88E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 20/11/2021 18:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Is there an archive.org mirror? How many of us could afford the disk space? 30PB in 2016 apparently. I know that 10 years from now we'll all have PB drives, but right now it would be hard. That's 8 years of downloading @ 1Gbps. So I suspect that none of us has an archive.org mirror. > What about Wikipedia? There's Infogalactic, but that's a fork, not a > mirror. You can download a copy of Wikipedia and set up a local copy - it's probably bigger now but when I tried it, it was about 3GB. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From jon at jonworld.com Sat Nov 20 13:11:59 2021 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 19:11:59 +0000 Subject: SCSI2SD for HVD? Message-ID: Hey everyone! Has anyone been able to use a SCSI2SD setup where HVD is required? I know by default that isn't supported, but given we can get custom kits to solder, we could just change out one of the controller chips (optimistically?) Cheers! -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 20 13:15:42 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 14:15:42 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <9011E382-96D5-4352-A090-C90FF92CA88E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2388A4EF-DCB1-401B-BBA6-A41BE372C1C0@comcast.net> > On Nov 20, 2021, at 2:06 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 20/11/2021 18:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Is there an archive.org mirror? > > How many of us could afford the disk space? 30PB in 2016 apparently. I know that 10 years from now we'll all have PB drives, but right now it would be hard. That's 8 years of downloading @ 1Gbps. So I suspect that none of us has an archive.org mirror. > > >> What about Wikipedia? There's Infogalactic, but that's a fork, not a mirror. > > You can download a copy of Wikipedia and set up a local copy - it's probably bigger now but when I tried it, it was about 3GB. Is that all? What about the graphics? And all the languages? Infogalactic is a fork only of the English Wikipedia, which is admittedly the biggest one but certainly insufficient by itself. I've encountered a number of articles that are far better covered in, say, the German edition than in the English one. Sumerian is an example. As for Werner's comment about SVN mirroring, I was unclear. Yes, I know you can mirror Subversion, or more precisely, the repository admin can set up remote backups for it. The nice thing about web based archives is that you can mirror them on your own initiative, at least moderately well. Quite well if they are structurally simple, like bitsavers. I have a few open source projects for which I keep the material on my own Subversion server. One is mirrored; the others aren't. I'd be happy to let someone mirror them if desired. And I've wondered if I should move them to Github to make them more visible and automatically mirrored. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 20 13:31:54 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:31:54 -0700 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <912f8995-ea59-9f64-0b38-04041f30cb68@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-11-20 5:56 a.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > And what happens when you wake? up one morning to find archive.org is > gone, too? > > I remember hearing how the web was going to make everything perpetual. > And yet the list of things that have disappeared just gets longer and > longer. Perpetual updates of software and money it seems. > > bill > Keep your old computers around, as more and more programs fail to work with the latest forced updates with microsoft and intel. I have a new computer and my TL866 II plus programmer stopped working. Works fine on my older machine. The same goes for older versions of FPGA software. Ben. From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Sat Nov 20 13:35:45 2021 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (fozztexx at fozztexx.com) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:35:45 -0800 Subject: Anyone out there with a working Victor 9000 (US only)? In-Reply-To: <9cde199c-ca55-db1c-c0e5-b4f6054dce15@sydex.com> References: <9cde199c-ca55-db1c-c0e5-b4f6054dce15@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9D107AAD-251B-40CA-8C33-4EBD87FE15BC@fozztexx.com> > That's basically it--I can read the transitions and probably figure out > the GCR, but the zoned recording is going to take some work--taken all > together, more work than I'm willing to put in for a one-time job. I've > got some pressing medical issues and don't really have the time to > dedicate for this. samdisk can decode Victor 9000 images. It's hard for me to fully test because neither of my Victors will boot from floppy and the hard disk I have seems to have been wiped. But the original disks that I've read using scp do seem to mostly decode. They don't boot in MAME though. To decode using samdisk: samdisk copy --scale 120 -c0-79 v9k-dos.scp v9k-dos.raw To convert the raw sector output from samdisk to a triangular image that is MAME compatible requires two more steps: v9k-raw2img-fixed.pl v9k-dos.raw v9k-dos.img dd if=v9k-dos.img bs=512 count=1224 of=v9k-dos.mame v9k-raw2img-fixed.pl can be found here: https://forum.system-cfg.com/viewtopic.php?p=172637&sid=bc421b3642004100b88b43d22b50ac18#p172637 The point I'm at with trying to get my Victors working is to see if I can get a good sector image that will boot in MAME, so I I know I have a good working image and can get a better idea of what files are needed for booting. Then I can either somehow dump the RAM out of MAME and poke it directly into the Victor via serial boot (I was able to verify serial boot is possible) or somehow poke it in using my Fluke 9010. From there I'll need to probably write some diagnostics to try to figure out what is wrong with the floppy drives. Then eventually I could create a new .scp using my floppur project from a sector image that boots in MAME. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com RetroBattlestations.com From gavin at learn.bio Sat Nov 20 13:37:48 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:37:48 -0600 Subject: Getting files from HP 3000l ll business noretapes (was: Re: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <1614784646.1672002.1637407715529@mail.yahoo.com> References: <915510104.1334903.1637360835662@mail.yahoo.com> <000401d7dd96$d3fcec40$7bf6c4c0$@classiccmp.org> <190513968.1623895.1637365205065@mail.yahoo.com> <9556962.1636568.1637370776762@mail.yahoo.com> <1614784646.1672002.1637407715529@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 5:28 AM ED SHARPE wrote: > Simulated series III yes more power efficient than the real series III And about 42 times faster and four times the max memory and more disk space than you could ever afford, and it takes like no memory to speak of on the host and uses zero CPU when idle so yeah :) From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Nov 20 13:42:23 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:42:23 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <7wbl2fqpg5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wbl2fqpg5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2021, at 11:03 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Michael Kerpan wrote: >> (See the sad fate of the Living Computer Museum, which was killed by >> its new owners as soon as COVID gave them an excuse to do so) > > It's not killed. It's still there, but not open to the public. They > continue to offer remote access to vintage systems. Some are now > running on emuators. As best I can tell, some systems are online if you have an account. I?ve tried to get one a couple times in the last 6?8 months, to no avail. Zane From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 20 14:01:30 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:01:30 -0800 Subject: SCSI2SD for HVD? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b1216c5-c422-6c4e-5d53-ed5632dcea5c@jwsss.com> On 11/20/2021 11:11 AM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > Hey everyone! > > Has anyone been able to use a SCSI2SD setup where HVD is required? I > know by default that isn't supported, but given we can get custom kits > to solder, we could just change out one of the controller chips > (optimistically?) > > Cheers! > I'd think you could get one of the DEC or Pacific data converters to handle that.? They work well converting to SE anyway.? Are the SCSI2SD proper SE or LVD only?? Some SCSI don't do the SE voltage version properly, just the LVD. DEC sold Pacific data converters with a DEC logo on them. thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 20 14:08:20 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:08:20 -0800 Subject: Anyone out there with a working Victor 9000 (US only)? In-Reply-To: <9D107AAD-251B-40CA-8C33-4EBD87FE15BC@fozztexx.com> References: <9cde199c-ca55-db1c-c0e5-b4f6054dce15@sydex.com> <9D107AAD-251B-40CA-8C33-4EBD87FE15BC@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <850cfd2b-e5f6-19bd-8774-48ad50d755f2@sydex.com> On 11/20/21 11:35 AM, fozztexx--- via cctalk wrote: > > samdisk can decode Victor 9000 images. It's hard for me to fully test because neither of my Victors will boot from floppy and the hard disk I have seems to have been wiped. But the original disks that I've read using scp do seem to mostly decode. They don't boot in MAME though. To decode using samdisk: > > samdisk copy --scale 120 -c0-79 v9k-dos.scp v9k-dos.raw > > To convert the raw sector output from samdisk to a triangular image that is MAME compatible requires two more steps: > > v9k-raw2img-fixed.pl v9k-dos.raw v9k-dos.img > dd if=v9k-dos.img bs=512 count=1224 of=v9k-dos.mame > > v9k-raw2img-fixed.pl can be found here: https://forum.system-cfg.com/viewtopic.php?p=172637&sid=bc421b3642004100b88b43d22b50ac18#p172637 > > The point I'm at with trying to get my Victors working is to see if I can get a good sector image that will boot in MAME, so I I know I have a good working image and can get a better idea of what files are needed for booting. Then I can either somehow dump the RAM out of MAME and poke it directly into the Victor via serial boot (I was able to verify serial boot is possible) or somehow poke it in using my Fluke 9010. From there I'll need to probably write some diagnostics to try to figure out what is wrong with the floppy drives. Then eventually I could create a new .scp using my floppur project from a sector image that boots in MAME. > After looking around, I figured that I might as well do the coding. So I did; customer is happy and I'm happy. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 20 14:12:45 2021 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 15:12:45 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13CD52E4EDD84575AE03FAEE80E171BF@i54570THINK> I agree there should be a way to archive and distribute classic software for as long as enough people care about it. The problem is most people don't care enough about it until it is actually lost. There is a long time between something being actively used and cared about to being obsolete and then to be collected. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Kerpan via cctalk Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 9:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation The recent discussion of the sudden disappearance of DtCyber and the various classic CDC software to run on it from the Internet has got me thinking about just how precarious so much of computer history is in. So much of what's out there online (and in person) today is at risk just vanishing if whoever maintains the archive either loses interest (lots of projects over the years succumb to this) , or rage quits (see the expungement of DtCyber and Controlfreaks from the internet), or ends up dying without having made proper arrangements (See the sad fate of the Living Computer Museum, which was killed by its new owners as soon as COVID gave them an excuse to do so) What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. Mike -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From web at loomcom.com Sat Nov 20 14:23:00 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:23:00 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <850293b5-84ad-415b-9eaa-92a3fc62a797@www.fastmail.com> On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, at 6:21 PM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. > > Mike Unfortunately, we're just not doing enough. I don't have an answer, but for several years I worked for the LOCKSS project at Stanford University. Their software is open source, and is used to archive online academic journals in a distributed, fault-tolerant peer to peer network (their primary research was on how to prevent bitrot and enable automatic format migration, for example). With some effort, it could be retooled into a general-purpose software archive, but I don't think anybody has ever seriously proposed doing that. I only point it out as inspiration for one possible way to do things. Until we have a better answer, we're just at the mercy of bitrot, and we have to accept that. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 20 14:27:52 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:27:52 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <9011E382-96D5-4352-A090-C90FF92CA88E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/20/21 11:06 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 20/11/2021 18:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Is there an archive.org mirror? > > How many of us could afford the disk space? 30PB in 2016 apparently. I > know that 10 years from now we'll all have PB drives, but right now it > would be hard. That's 8 years of downloading @ 1Gbps. So I suspect that > none of us has an archive.org mirror. I had an interesting dream last night. I was in the CDC SVLOPS tape room and I wondered if all those 7-track tapes would fit on a 128GB USB pen drive. I suspect that they would, with room to spare. Probably fit the collection from ARHOPS on the drive as well. All of those programmers, churning away and the sum total winds up on something that you could fit several of in a shirt pocket. How do we value data? All of those programmers spending much of their lives developing a paltry (by today's standards) versus a script kiddie churning out a web pages in day that take 100 MB to store. More to the point: What is the value of what's being archived? Is a 4 MB web splash image worth as much as 4 MB of source code? If not, who gets to decide on what to keep? --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 14:51:10 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 20:51:10 -0000 Subject: SCSI2SD for HVD? In-Reply-To: <7b1216c5-c422-6c4e-5d53-ed5632dcea5c@jwsss.com> References: <7b1216c5-c422-6c4e-5d53-ed5632dcea5c@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <223501d7de50$59ab56b0$0d020410$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of jim stephens via > cctalk > Sent: 20 November 2021 20:02 > To: Jonathan Katz via cctalk > Subject: Re: SCSI2SD for HVD? > > > > On 11/20/2021 11:11 AM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Hey everyone! > > > > Has anyone been able to use a SCSI2SD setup where HVD is required? I > > know by default that isn't supported, but given we can get custom kits > > to solder, we could just change out one of the controller chips > > (optimistically?) > > > > Cheers! > > > I'd think you could get one of the DEC or Pacific data converters to handle > that. They work well converting to SE anyway. Are the SCSI2SD proper SE or > LVD only? Some SCSI don't do the SE voltage version properly, just the LVD. > > DEC sold Pacific data converters with a DEC logo on them. > > thanks > Jim Jim, SCSI2SD is old traditional SCSI so single ended Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 15:22:37 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 16:22:37 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <850293b5-84ad-415b-9eaa-92a3fc62a797@www.fastmail.com> References: <850293b5-84ad-415b-9eaa-92a3fc62a797@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: > Unfortunately, we're just not doing enough. I don't have an answer, but for several years I worked for the LOCKSS project at Stanford University. Their software is open source, and is used to archive online academic journals in a distributed, fault-tolerant peer to peer network (their primary research was on how to prevent bitrot and enable automatic format migration, for example). With some effort, it could be retooled into a general-purpose software archive, but I don't think anybody has ever seriously proposed doing that. I only point it out as inspiration for one possible way to do things. > > Until we have a better answer, we're just at the mercy of bitrot, and we have to accept that. Unless, of course, you have a mainframe shop and figured all this shit out back in the 1960s. -- Will From web at loomcom.com Sat Nov 20 15:36:54 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:36:54 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <850293b5-84ad-415b-9eaa-92a3fc62a797@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, at 1:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Unless, of course, you have a mainframe shop and figured all this shit > out back in the 1960s. Figuring things out accomplishes very little if what was figured out is not broadly applied. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 20 15:40:40 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 16:40:40 -0500 Subject: FTGH: FH disk drives (and one HH) - Toronto In-Reply-To: <7c9e76c9-7e6b-1042-d8ac-18ce3335429e@telegraphics.com.au> References: <51a4deaf-ebbd-8171-95f9-f4d287189b52@telegraphics.com.au> <7c9e76c9-7e6b-1042-d8ac-18ce3335429e@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <28f68656-1a51-1d75-19b0-0119715da44c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-10-30 2:14 p.m., Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-10-30 1:14 p.m., Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Located in Toronto Canada, for shipping cost only: >> >> - 3 x Hitachi DK516-15 > > ^^ Hitachis are spoken for. > >> - 2 x Computer Memories Inc (CMI) 6426-S >> - Microscience HH-1060 (half height; marked bad) >> - Tandon TM-502 ^^ These drives are still available... You know you want 'em! --Toby >> >> Unknown working condition, but have been stored well. >> > > (As a rough estimate, shipping 2 FH drives to west coast USA from here > is about USD $60.) > > --Toby > > > >> First come, first served, etc. >> >> --Toby > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 20 17:08:23 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 18:08:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation Message-ID: <20211120230823.69A7018C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Stoness > [M?]iror everything guys make copies and stash > From: Paul Koning > The web can make things perpetual if they are stored redundantly ... > But anything centralized is just as vulnerable as any centralized copy > ever was, whether from risk of fire or flood, or abandonment. I've been thinking about this issue for a while (although I tend to have a long scope, e.g. looking forward to a time when everyone currently on this list is dead; so I think things like 'failed states' need to be a concern too), and I think history has a key lesson for us. I've been reading up on the history of the Greek cities after the Pelponnesian War, down through the War of the Successors (the Diadochi) after Alexander the Great died. One book I read said that the only surviving source for many major periods in this stretch was Diodorus (a Greek historian from Syracuse in the first century BC); he wrote a history of the world in 40 volumes, only 15 of which survive today complete. The sad thing is that there _was_ a complete set in the library at Constantinope, as late as 1453 (and we know what happened then). So it survived the best part of 2K years, and was then lost; the parts that _did_ survive, did so because there were copies in other libraries. So the lesson is clear: we need to _replicate_ stuff, in a geographically and nationally distributed way. The mirroring of Bitsavers is _very_ good news. However, even in the class of stuff that it focuses on, e.g. old manufacturer documentation, some things don't make it in there, but do exist in other online repositories (e.g. Manx's collections). So one thing we need to do is come up with something like Bitsavers, but with more curatorial work-sharing. Al has done an _incredible_ job, for which we are all deeply in his debt - but it would be good to come up with some way to help him. (E.g. I've been adding links to online versions of manuals, in articles on older DEC stuff I'm doing the CHWiki, and I often find things which aren't in Bitsavers. But sending Al an email saying 'hey, xxx is {here}, you might want to upload it' is just putting all the load on him.) Getting all this stuff into the replicated, mirrored system is a key priority. > And in the case of digital data the added complication is the loss of > the necessary technology. Multiple independent copies will of course help with this (very real) problem. The mirrors will likely be using different hardware, and will turn it over at different times. We could definitely use more mirrors, though - and geographically distributed: it looks like there are current (non-US) ones in the UK, and in Germany - more would be good. New Zealand? Australia? Maybe Japan and India? Individual volunteers aren't really what we need ('when everyone currently on this list is dead'); it needs to be institutions. > The Long Now Foundation has done some good thinking about this; some > others have as well. Jerry Saltzer thought about this, especially the 'generations of hardware', and 'software formats' (e.g old Word docuents) issues. See: "Technology, Networks, and the Library of the Year 2000" http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/inria/inria.pdf (particularly Section 4.3 "Persistence"), and also: "Fault-Tolerance in Very Large Archival Systems" http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/fault-tol/fault-tolerance.pdf > I'd say more of us need to be more paranoid about mirroring stuff. Yes. Don't just use a link, copy stuff down to a place _you_ control. (I.e. not Google Drive. Nothing against Google, but their business might go somewhere different, like Geocities, etc.) I have a large collection of down-loaded stuff. Already I've run into cases where stuff has gone offline, and without my local copy... Noel From cclist at sytse.net Sat Nov 20 17:53:48 2021 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 00:53:48 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Diagnostic Program Listings Micro Fiche Scans In-Reply-To: <95d9856a-a904-694b-7d3a-1482936494a0@gmail.com> References: <95d9856a-a904-694b-7d3a-1482936494a0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75450B3C-6615-4B18-93BD-9FF8E3D53581@sytse.net> Hello Joerg, Since you first published these, the listings have been of great use to me in improving pdp2011. Before, there were many tests that would just crash, and it would take ages to figure out why from the binary view in my logic analyzer and in some cases I just couldn't figure out what was going on. The listings made things so much easier to understand, and helped tremendously with implementing much more correct fpga pdp-11 systems. Before, there were only a few listings and some of them had crucial pages missing and I just had to guess what happened there - sometimes I guessed right, but more often it just was a mystery. Some of the xxdp programs are quite devious, and even with the listing it can be quite the challenge to understand exactly what is going on. I still regularly check the files I mirrored 5 or so years ago - and sometimes I still need a couple days to figure out what is going on. Reading the pages is hardly ever an issue, understanding what is on them sometimes still is. Thanks for putting in all the work, Cheers Sytse > On 20 Nov 2021, at 08:30, Joerg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Friends, > > Micro fiche scans of the PDP-11 XXDP listings are online now: > > http://files.retrocmp.com/fichescanner/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp11/microfiche/Diagnostic_Program_Listings/ > > You can insert this into your bitsaver mirror tree with > $ cd > $ wget --recursive --level 0 --no-host-directories --cut-dirs 2 --no-parent -R index.htm?* http://files.retrocmp.com/fichescanner/bitsavers/ > You need about 130 GB space for 1600+ listings. > A Win10 version of wget is at http://files.retrocmp.com/wget-1.21.2-win32.zip > > In 2016 I posted a batch of listings, which was archived at > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microfiche/ftp.j-hoppe.de/... > These were repacked and included in the above distribution. > So despite I'm very pleased to see my name on bitsavers: > Please discard the "ftp.j-hoppe.de" directory now ! > > For each listing there are 3 files: > - a "gray" pdf in archive quality. > - a highly compressed "bw" pdf, about 10x smaller. > - an ASCII *.dat with context and title strip data, prepared for database import. > The pdfs contain pictures of their fiches as title pages. > > The quality of the fiches is everything between "brilliant" and "awful" > DEC made every possible error while preparating them, the list is endless. > My favorite bug: Title strips glued to the wrong fiche (corrected here). > > I even tried OCR but the results where poor. > "ocrmypdf" (= "tesseract + pdf") seems a good tool, but > the fiches are too problematic for a fully automatic run. > You have to dive into tesseracts training procedures. > See https://hub.docker.com/r/jbarlow83/ocrmypdf/ > > Some project links: > http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches > https://youtu.be/X22gr5THBRA > https://hackaday.com/2021/09/17/automatic-microfiche-scanner-digitizes-docs/ > > By the way: This project ate up lots of (physical and personal) resources. > I'll will scan other document sets in the future, maybe begging for a donation then. > > Enjoy! > Joerg > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 20:05:28 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 21:05:28 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <850293b5-84ad-415b-9eaa-92a3fc62a797@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: > > Unless, of course, you have a mainframe shop and figured all this shit > > out back in the 1960s. > > Figuring things out accomplishes very little if what was figured out is not broadly applied. That is correct. All the talk about this topic or archiving data that starts with "We should" or "What we need to do" means squat, when the old ways work just fine. Those old ways the mainframers used was pretty KISS. When backing up the data, keep three generations of technology going with rolling backups, and do the exact same thing 100 megatons away as a mirror. -- Will From athornton at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 10:45:25 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 09:45:25 -0700 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is > gone, too? > > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. Smoke 'em while you got 'em. Adam From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 21 13:39:32 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 12:39:32 -0700 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11f508ba-5ad5-1771-f07d-bce6e4c7ac91@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is >> gone, too? >> >> > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable > mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the > Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. > > Smoke 'em while you got 'em. > > Adam > Who knows what lay ahead. ----- The Last Question by Isaac Asimov ? 1956 The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way: Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole. Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued... ---- From mark.tapley at swri.org Sun Nov 21 14:42:27 2021 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 20:42:27 +0000 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <11f508ba-5ad5-1771-f07d-bce6e4c7ac91@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <11f508ba-5ad5-1771-f07d-bce6e4c7ac91@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2021, at 1:39 PM, ben via cctalk > wrote: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is gone, too? Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. Smoke 'em while you got 'em. Adam Who knows what lay ahead. ----- The Last Question by Isaac Asimov ? 1956 The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way: Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole. Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued... ?? https://www.physics.princeton.edu/ph115/LQ.pdf I actually remembered the ending of that story without looking. If you don?t, it is worth a read. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sun Nov 21 14:43:15 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 14:43:15 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4f8e0560-cc95-1dfa-7e21-5acf3f9fe7f8@yahoo.com> References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> <04a601d7dd85$8a50a9d0$9ef1fd70$@comcast.net> <4f8e0560-cc95-1dfa-7e21-5acf3f9fe7f8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: For anyone who is interested, I have scanned and posted the OMSI 2000 FORTRAN manuals to archive.org. Will also post them to my site later. It looks like there are three manuals. The first is missing the front cover and just starts with "Section 1" but seems to be for students who are learning to program in FORTRAN with the system. The second is a guide and answer key for the instructor and the third appears to be for the system operator. There seems to be two different versions of OMSI 2000 FORTRAN, one for TSB B/E and another for TSB C/F which seems to have additional features. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 21 14:48:38 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 15:48:38 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <11f508ba-5ad5-1771-f07d-bce6e4c7ac91@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <98d8d7eb-f763-18dc-0730-a86daa11031d@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-11-21 3:42 p.m., Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 21, 2021, at 1:39 PM, ben via cctalk > wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is > gone, too? > > > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable > mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the > Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. > Smoke 'em while you got 'em. > Adam > Who knows what lay ahead. > ----- > The Last Question by Isaac Asimov ? 1956 > > The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way: > > Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole. > > Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued... > ?? > > https://www.physics.princeton.edu/ph115/LQ.pdf > > I actually remembered the ending of that story without looking. If you don?t, it is worth a read. > Everyone remembers it. It's "41" From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Nov 21 15:09:01 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 21:09:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2000 TSB and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <1641006628.709453.1637310941648@mail.yahoo.com> <1034740498.1555501.1637343694618@mail.yahoo.com> <04a601d7dd85$8a50a9d0$9ef1fd70$@comcast.net> <4f8e0560-cc95-1dfa-7e21-5acf3f9fe7f8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1353050346.100070.1637528941506@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you very much Dave Ave!Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 1:43 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: For anyone who is interested, I have scanned and posted the OMSI 2000 FORTRAN manuals to archive.org. Will also post them to my site later. It looks like there are three manuals. The first is missing the front cover and just starts with "Section 1" but seems to be for students who are learning to program in FORTRAN with the system. The second is a guide and answer key for the instructor and the third appears to be for the system operator. There seems to be two different versions of OMSI 2000 FORTRAN, one for TSB B/E and another for TSB C/F which seems to have additional features. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From steven at malikoff.com Sun Nov 21 16:40:00 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 08:40:00 +1000 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e74606b16e86d0a52f69de9076a67f0.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Adam wrote >> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk didn't write: >> >> And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is >> gone, too? >> >> > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable > mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the > Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. > > Smoke 'em while you got 'em. I did not write that line, it's misappropriated from a followup. But I agree with the sentiment that entropy is going to win in the long run. That scene in 'Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure' where Socrates pours dust through his fingers kind of sums it up :) Steve From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Mon Nov 22 07:18:10 2021 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:18:10 +0200 Subject: Siemens RM200 little endian firmware Message-ID: Hello, Does anyone have a copy of Siemens RM200 ARC firmware? It has been used to switch from SINIX(big endian) to Linux or Windows (little endian). Best regards, Plamen From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 09:34:30 2021 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:34:30 +0100 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 03:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the > URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but not always > so I think it does help. When you submit a URL to archive org it only archives just that page, it doesn't crawl it. So unless archive.org actually crawls that site by itself you'll have to manually enter every single local link on that page (and the links on the those pages again) in order to archive it. I've submitted many URLs over the years, and when I re-visit the for the most part haven't actually been crawled by archive.org at a later point either. So those sites I care about (and some have now disappeared from the net) I archive every link manually. I wish there was a way to at least hint to archive.org that it would be nice to have it crawled. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 10:16:56 2021 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:16:56 -0500 Subject: Passing of Jay Last Message-ID: I read with sadness an obituary in the New York Times of the passing of *Jay Last*, he being one of the ?traitorous eight? infamy, if you wish to look at it that way. We in CCTalk owe him and others a great deal as they helped create the Silicon Valley from which early small computers evolved. Happy computing, well sort of! Murray ? From commodorejohn at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 13:50:10 2021 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:50:10 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation Message-ID: > On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is >> gone, too? >> >> > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable > mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the > Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. > > Smoke 'em while you got 'em. Yeah, I had a long, hard think about this while the Caldor Fire was looking like it was about to come knocking on my doorstep this fall and I was trying to prep myself for a short-notice evacuation and decide what I could and couldn't take (read: leave stowed in the trunk of the car for the next couple weeks.) Ultimately, while I'd *like* what I have and enjoy to pass on to someone else once I get busy decomposing, in the long run it's all dust, so I'm not gonna worry myself too much over it. From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 22 16:00:14 2021 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 14:00:14 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> and yet, after it's over and there's *nothing* left from 30+ years of collecting, there are occasional reflections on what you left behind... just saying... Steve On 11/22/2021 11:50 AM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: >> On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >>> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is >>> gone, too? >>> >>> >> Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable >> mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the >> Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. >> >> Smoke 'em while you got 'em. > Yeah, I had a long, hard think about this while the Caldor Fire was > looking like it was about to come knocking on my doorstep this fall > and I was trying to prep myself for a short-notice evacuation and > decide what I could and couldn't take (read: leave stowed in the trunk > of the car for the next couple weeks.) Ultimately, while I'd *like* > what I have and enjoy to pass on to someone else once I get busy > decomposing, in the long run it's all dust, so I'm not gonna worry > myself too much over it. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 22 16:59:17 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 14:59:17 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> Message-ID: <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and just tossed it because "Why would I ever want this anymore?".? I *really* regret tossing all of the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's property (since I wrote it all as an IBM employee) and I doubt any of it survives in any form anywhere, but I still wish I had some of it.? :-( After it's all said and done, one has to wonder if we really leave any lasting impact.? :-/ TTFN - Guy On 11/22/21 2:00 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: > and yet, after it's over and there's *nothing* left from 30+ years of > collecting, there are occasional reflections on what you left behind... > > just saying... > > Steve > > > On 11/22/2021 11:50 AM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> And what happens when you wake? up one morning to find archive.org is >>>> gone, too? >>>> >>>> >>> Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable >>> mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the >>> Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. >>> >>> Smoke 'em while you got 'em. >> Yeah, I had a long, hard think about this while the Caldor Fire was >> looking like it was about to come knocking on my doorstep this fall >> and I was trying to prep myself for a short-notice evacuation and >> decide what I could and couldn't take (read: leave stowed in the trunk >> of the car for the next couple weeks.) Ultimately, while I'd *like* >> what I have and enjoy to pass on to someone else once I get busy >> decomposing, in the long run it's all dust, so I'm not gonna worry >> myself too much over it. > -- TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 22 19:40:47 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:40:47 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> On 11/22/21 2:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and just tossed it because > "Why would I ever want this anymore?".? I *really* regret tossing all of > the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's > property (since I wrote it all as an IBM employee) and I doubt any of it > survives in any form anywhere, but I still wish I had some of it.? :-( Think of all of the software and documentation that may still reside/resided in government hands. I suspect that much of it was intentionally and thoroughly destroyed. I can think of one project that had 1500 GSA programmers working. I doubt that a single line of that survives. --Chuck From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Nov 23 07:35:41 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:35:41 +0000 Subject: Pictures: Early IC Package with Rolled Legs Message-ID: I figured this would probably be of interest to some people here, too: https://imgur.com/a/TCrIxEH I've had this NS DM8200D 4-bit comparator for a while, after posting some pictures of it to Twitter, Evil Mad Scientist Labs offered to take super macro photos of it for me. It's just a comparator, but the DIP package is a very early "gold sandwich" style carrier. What really makes the packaging unique is that the legs are rolled into a tubular shape, rather than being the usual stamped/coined construction modern ICs use! Thanks, Jonathan From info at schroeder-edv.de Tue Nov 23 06:39:02 2021 From: info at schroeder-edv.de (info at schroeder-edv.de) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:39:02 +0100 Subject: For Sale, Seattle area: Data General MV/7800 + drives, docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <635b7dfa-5563-2cdc-3f83-f4d1614262e0@schroeder-edv.de> Hi Josh, my name is Lother Schr?der. I'm living in Germany and I'm a collector of Data General machines. It would be nice to get the machine, but I'm afraid it's too difficult to get it here to germany. I have a MV/7800 here in my collection, but no documentation and software. My question is: Can you tell me what documentation or tapes you have? Perhaps I can get a copy. Thanks for today Kindly regards Lothar From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 11:51:04 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:51:04 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/22/21 8:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/22/21 2:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and just tossed it because >> "Why would I ever want this anymore?".? I *really* regret tossing all of >> the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's >> property (since I wrote it all as an IBM employee) and I doubt any of it >> survives in any form anywhere, but I still wish I had some of it.? :-( > > Think of all of the software and documentation that may still > reside/resided in government hands. I suspect that much of it was > intentionally and thoroughly destroyed. > > I can think of one project that had 1500 GSA programmers working. I > doubt that a single line of that survives. You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before it stopped being used. But that won't do you any good as even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have to honor it. :-) bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 23 12:21:33 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:21:33 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: doubt that a single line of that survives. > > You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before > it stopped being used.? But that won't do you any good as > even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of > recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have > to honor it.? :-) I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military project that sunset some time in the late 1970s. Defense projects generally had a fixed budget that did not include archiving after the project had completed. That even extended to defense contractors. I recall a job I did for LMSC where one person still had some 8" Future Data floppies with software for a particular product. The set wasn't complete--but there were no official company archives of the stuff. It wasn't just the US Defense industry either; I've done similar stuff for, say, the Israelis. I think that, in the military mind, software belonging to a discontinued classified project was deemed a potential security risk and destroyed. A lot of my work involved retrieving stuff that had been put on tapes years ago and just stashed in a warehouse with no description, other than a tape inventory number. Someone got the job of cleaning out the warehouse and thought the tapes might be worth looking at. Just think of all of the stuff that hits the landfill from old timers who have passed. The inheritors don't know what to do with the stuff other than dispose of it. We're very bad at hanging onto old information. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 23 13:17:59 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:17:59 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 23, 2021, at 1:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Just think of all of the stuff that hits the landfill from old timers > who have passed. The inheritors don't know what to do with the stuff > other than dispose of it. Or they might not know how to find devices that can read the stuff. I have some examples: a couple of DECtapes, and an RA60 pack. I know how to find someone who can read them, but none of my family would. The same, only more so, for 7 track tapes. Or CDC 626 14-track tapes. And what about 10 track tapes? There's someone in England working on reading some of those for an old English computer; those tools may or may not be suitable for reading EL-X1 tapes. Similarly, there was the recent heroics to recover Univac 1 tapes (if I remember right). paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Nov 23 13:18:51 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:18:51 -0500 Subject: PDT11/150 supported in RT11 5.7? Message-ID: <5390a2c7-49f1-1e10-8448-b4e19511a921@alembic.crystel.com> I spent the other day adjusting and getting my RX02's and the PDT11/150 working in tip top shape. They run fine, but I was wondering: I didn't see the PD.SYS driver on my RT11 5.5 and 5.7 releases. Does anyone know if Dec dropped support sometime after 5.1? C Next project: Put the pdp8/L back together. Or maybe the 11/05. Current working systems: 11/83 with RL02,RX02,TK70, 380mb CDC Esdi,DELQA 11/24 with RL02,RX02 controllers PDT11/150 with both drives running VT52 with repaired power supplies Stuff to work on: Decsystem20/20 LS120 (not an LA/120) pdp11/05 Pair of Pdp8/L's 11/23 system in a BA11-S Plessey/Diablo drives 2 Perq 1's 2 Perq2's Big assed Microvax From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 23 13:22:32 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:22:32 -0600 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6a7107d1-1ac2-3683-e283-ff48cc83871e@pico-systems.com> On 11/23/21 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > doubt that a single line of that survives. >> You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before >> it stopped being used.? But that won't do you any good as >> even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of >> recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have >> to honor it.? :-) > I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military project that > sunset some time in the late 1970s. Yup, A guy I know was in the aerospace fabrication business (now retired).? A few years back, he showed us some horribly degraded mylar plots of some military aircraft drawings that were all the manufacturer could come up with.? The Air Force was doing a major rebuild of those airframes, and needed some skins shaped to replace the tailplane airfoils.? He knew where possibly the only airfoil bender was, and quickly bought it from a scrap dealer. They then had to scrutinize the plots and try to extract the original dimensions so they could bend the skin to the required shape.? Lucky the original manufacturer at least had some form of document still available, or they would have had to do some 3D scanning of an existing part that was not too far gone. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 23 13:31:36 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:31:36 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <6a7107d1-1ac2-3683-e283-ff48cc83871e@pico-systems.com> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> <6a7107d1-1ac2-3683-e283-ff48cc83871e@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 23, 2021, at 2:22 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/23/21 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> doubt that a single line of that survives. >>> You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before >>> it stopped being used. But that won't do you any good as >>> even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of >>> recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have >>> to honor it. :-) >> I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military project that >> sunset some time in the late 1970s. > > Yup, A guy I know was in the aerospace fabrication business (now retired). A few years back, he showed us some horribly degraded mylar plots of some military aircraft drawings that were all the manufacturer could come up with. The Air Force was doing a major rebuild of those airframes, and needed some skins shaped to replace the tailplane airfoils. He knew where possibly the only airfoil bender was, and quickly bought it from a scrap dealer. They then had to scrutinize the plots and try to extract the original dimensions so they could bend the skin to the required shape. Lucky the original manufacturer at least had some form of document still available, or they would have had to do some 3D scanning of an existing part that was not too far gone. Along those same lines, the designs for the Saturn rocket were supposedly scrapped (some say for political reasons). A few years ago someone did a detailed 3D scan of the F1 engine (first stage engine) and used that to develop a compatible but more modern successor (called F2 I think). paul From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 13:44:23 2021 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:44:23 -0500 Subject: PDT11/150 supported in RT11 5.7? In-Reply-To: <5390a2c7-49f1-1e10-8448-b4e19511a921@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5390a2c7-49f1-1e10-8448-b4e19511a921@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <1FEE3C9C-4787-4C3E-AA0C-B3B4DCE69E74@gmail.com> > On Nov 23, 2021, at 14:18, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > ?I spent the other day adjusting and getting my RX02's and the PDT11/150 working in tip top shape. They run fine, but I was wondering: I didn't see the PD.SYS driver on my RT11 5.5 and 5.7 releases. Does anyone know if Dec dropped support sometime after 5.1? > C I was just reading the RT 11 5.7 documentation the other day and noticed the mention that PDT-11s were desupported with that release. I think the follow up to that was that the device drivers are still there, but no longer built for you. Maybe you could build it yourself and be fine! ?-jake From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 16:04:33 2021 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:04:33 -0500 Subject: PDT11/150 supported in RT11 5.7? In-Reply-To: <1FEE3C9C-4787-4C3E-AA0C-B3B4DCE69E74@gmail.com> References: <5390a2c7-49f1-1e10-8448-b4e19511a921@alembic.crystel.com> <1FEE3C9C-4787-4C3E-AA0C-B3B4DCE69E74@gmail.com> Message-ID: >From the freshly installed RT-11 v5.7 disk image I have available to me: .type pd.mac .MCALL .MODULE .MODULE PD,VERSION=09,COMMENT=,AUDIT=YES On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 14:44, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > I was just reading the RT 11 5.7 documentation the other day and noticed the mention that PDT-11s were desupported with that release. I think the follow up to that was that the device drivers are still there, but no longer built for you. Maybe you could build it yourself and be fine! > So yes, to confirm what Jake says: the handler is included as source only, you will need to compile and link it yourself to use it. (There are several other drivers in a similar state, including the TU-58 driver and DECtape driver.) Best regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 17:17:49 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:17:49 -0800 Subject: Looking for tips debugging DEC TC01 controller Message-ID: Hey all -- I picked up a TC01 in trade (for a TC08) a couple of weeks back and this past weekend I got it hooked up and powered up with my PDP-8/I + TU55 transport. I've been debugging it and have solved a couple of issues but the current one has me stumped and I'm looking for advice, hoping I overlooked something obvious. At this point the PDP-8/I can talk to the TC01 and use it to control the TU55 without issue. I've mostly been using MAINDEC-08-D3BB to exercise the hardware (see: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/pdp8/src/dec/maindec-08-d3b/maindec-08-d3bb-d.pdf) and issuing FWD/BACK commands via the "Basic Motion" routine the tape runs from one end of the tape to the other, stopping at the endzones correctly. The tape comes up to speed properly, the COUNTER register increments, and in general the various status lights on the panel do what I expect them to do. The root symptom I'm seeing now is that DECtape operations (like SEARCH) don't complete, and I've traced this back to the MK BLK MK signal not getting asserted. This signal is generated by a large AND gate (see p. 112 of http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/dectape/tc01/DEC-08-I2AB-D_TC01_Jul69.pdf). This gate ANDs together a pile of signals from the WINDOW register and the counter, looking for a specific bit pattern on the mark tracks; this AND gate is never satisfied because the WINDOW register's MSB (W1) is stuck low. On the scope it's a completely flat line, no glitches or anything noticeable. Despite my best efforts I cannot figure out why this is. Here's what I've looked at and what I've discovered thus far: 1) The inputs to the W1 flip-flop (pins U (clock) and V (data) look to be correct -- U is identical to the TP1 signal being passed to all the other flip-flops in the chain, and V is identical to the data coming out of W2 -- levels all look fine. 2) The outputs of W1 (pins T and S) are not being pulled up or down by anything external. I've gone so far as to completely disconnect T and S from the backplane (with some tape over the card fingers) and the outputs are still a flat line. 3) The output of pin T goes to -3V when 0->WINDOW is de-asserted (when tape is in motion), returns to 0V when 0->WINDOW is asserted after the tape stops. (S is the inverse of this, as expected.) (As an aside, the schematic drawing suggests that 0->WINDOW ought to be a pulse given the arrow symbol; this does not appear to be the case. Other flip flops in the chain seem to behave properly, regardless...) 4) The backplane connection to the R203 flip-chip that the W1 flip-flop is on is fine. I've beeped this out and there's no significant resistance between the backplane pins and the connection to the card in the slot. 5) W1 is not affected by the state of the two other flip flops on the R203 (also tested by disconnecting all pins other than power/gnd and pins R/S/T/U/V with tape). 6) Swapping in a different, working R203 shows no change in behavior. 6) Sometimes, randomly, W1 starts working. Last night I noticed that the solder side of R203 was rubbing against the top of the "flip chip" packages on the R107 next to it and even though those shouldn't be conductive, I stuck a piece of cardstock between the two. W1 started working! I tested things for about a half hour in this state (interrupts were still not occurring, much to my annoyance) and this morning I powered it up and it was still working. Pulled the cardstock out and W1 stopped working; this would seem to causation. Put the cardstock back in... still won't work. Backplane connections all test out fine (see (4) above). Put the R203 on an extender (to completely avoid interference with neighboring cards) and still no go. Possibly the insertion of the cardstock flexed the board or the connection with the backplane slot ever so slightly to make things work but if so I've been unable to replicate it. All of this still sounds like a bad connection somewhere (backplane, cold solder joint, broken trace) but the evidence seems to be against it (checked, double-checked, triple-checked backplane, swapped R203s around, etc...) Anyone have suggestions? I'm going to start looking at things on the board itself (which is going to be a pain given how things are currently arranged in the chassis) but curious if I've missed anything here... - Josh From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Nov 23 19:33:32 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:33:32 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Anyone_want_=E2=80=A6_Creo_Brisque_badges?= Message-ID: Hey, A few years ago I did a rescue of a couple Creo Brisque RS/6000s. They didn?t seem to have any Creo software on them, so I removed the Creo badges from them, reinstalled AIX on them, and passed them on. Anyone here want the badges? If so, send an address and I will drop them in the mail and send them your way. alan From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 19:46:48 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:46:48 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Anyone_want_=E2=80=A6_Creo_Brisque_badges?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgive me but I can't resist. "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_badges :-) Bill On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:33 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Hey, > > A few years ago I did a rescue of a couple Creo Brisque RS/6000s. They > didn?t seem to have any Creo software on them, so I removed the Creo badges > from them, reinstalled AIX on them, and passed them on. > > Anyone here want the badges? If so, send an address and I will drop them > in the mail and send them your way. > > alan > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 23 19:55:11 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:55:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Anyone_want_=E2=80=A6_Creo_Brisque_badges?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2021, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Forgive me but I can't resist. > > "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges" > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_badges > :-) > > Bill Thank you. From shumaker at att.net Tue Nov 23 20:06:33 2021 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:06:33 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> Message-ID: <13a1a6d7-08d5-49b0-938e-885b95427294@att.net> In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL materials related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless the contractor receives specific permission from the gov't? to retain it - usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on contract.? When major contracts close, there is often a great cleaning out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle. Steve On 11/23/2021 10:21 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > doubt that a single line of that survives. >> You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before >> it stopped being used.? But that won't do you any good as >> even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of >> recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have >> to honor it.? :-) > I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military project that > sunset some time in the late 1970s. Defense projects generally had a > fixed budget that did not include archiving after the project had > completed. That even extended to defense contractors. I recall a job > I did for LMSC where one person still had some 8" Future Data floppies > with software for a particular product. The set wasn't complete--but > there were no official company archives of the stuff. It wasn't just > the US Defense industry either; I've done similar stuff for, say, the > Israelis. > > I think that, in the military mind, software belonging to a discontinued > classified project was deemed a potential security risk and destroyed. > > A lot of my work involved retrieving stuff that had been put on tapes > years ago and just stashed in a warehouse with no description, other > than a tape inventory number. Someone got the job of cleaning out the > warehouse and thought the tapes might be worth looking at. > > Just think of all of the stuff that hits the landfill from old timers > who have passed. The inheritors don't know what to do with the stuff > other than dispose of it. > > We're very bad at hanging onto old information. > > --Chuck > From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Nov 23 20:18:58 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:18:58 -0800 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Anyone_want_=e2=80=a6_Creo_Brisque_badges?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1b628757-1bd2-6ba3-d1da-083b3c7fcb77@snowmoose.com> The low hanging fruit is the best fruit? On 11/23/21 5:46 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > Forgive me but I can't resist. > > "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges" > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_badges > > > > :-) > > Bill > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:33 PM Alan Perry via cctalk > > wrote: > > Hey, > > A few years ago I did a rescue of a couple Creo Brisque RS/6000s. > They didn?t seem to have any Creo software on them, so I removed > the Creo badges from them, reinstalled AIX on them, and passed > them on. > > Anyone here want the badges? If so, send an address and I will > drop them in the mail and send them your way. > > alan > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 24 03:47:45 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:47:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 Message-ID: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> So, with the help of you here, I was able to create OS/8 LINCtapes and to run SerialDisk. Everything runs very fine. Now comes the next thing: I want to have K12MIT, and it is no problem to compile or load the program. *But*: When I start K12MIT I don't get the prompt. I see the welcome message, and it correctly identifies the machine as a PDP-12, but that's it. As I've found out it apparently overwrites its code, the processor is looping around address 3600-3620. Examining the memory reveals that the code at 3600 has been overwritten with junk. So it's clear that it won't run anymore. What happens? Was anyone else able to run K12MIT on a PDP-12? BTW the same binary runs fine on a PDP-8, be it a real machine or SIMH. Christian From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Nov 24 03:55:19 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 04:55:19 -0500 Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <51ef82c3-043c-867d-f25d-d1035abc945f@alembic.crystel.com> Do you have a running pdp12? C On 11/24/2021 4:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > So, with the help of you here, I was able to create OS/8 LINCtapes and > to run SerialDisk. Everything runs very fine. > > Now comes the next thing: I want to have K12MIT, and it is no problem to > compile or load the program. > *But*: When I start K12MIT I don't get the prompt. I see the welcome > message, and it correctly identifies the machine as a PDP-12, but that's > it. As I've found out it apparently overwrites its code, the processor > is looping around address 3600-3620. Examining the memory reveals that > the code at 3600 has been overwritten with junk. So it's clear that it > won't run anymore. What happens? Was anyone else able to run K12MIT on a > PDP-12? > > BTW the same binary runs fine on a PDP-8, be it a real machine or SIMH. > > Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 24 04:17:06 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:17:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: <51ef82c3-043c-867d-f25d-d1035abc945f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <51ef82c3-043c-867d-f25d-d1035abc945f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, Chris Zach wrote: > Do you have a running pdp12? Yes :-) It is completely working including the display and both LINCtape drives. Christian From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Nov 24 04:38:36 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 05:38:36 -0500 Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <51ef82c3-043c-867d-f25d-d1035abc945f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <5f637e80-6234-4a59-25a0-34a13ce19284@alembic.crystel.com> Interesting. I couldn't save the pdp12 that was at my college 30 years ago (you can't fit that rack in the back of a station wagon) but I did grab a couple of boxes of LincTapes. I'd be happy to loan you a few if you want to see what's on them. C On 11/24/2021 5:17 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, Chris Zach wrote: >> Do you have a running pdp12? > > Yes :-) It is completely working including the display and both LINCtape > drives. > > Christian From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 07:22:41 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 05:22:41 -0800 Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On 11/24/2021 1:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > So, with the help of you here, I was able to create OS/8 LINCtapes and > to run SerialDisk. Everything runs very fine. Yay! > Now comes the next thing: I want to have K12MIT, and it is no problem to > compile or load the program. > *But*: When I start K12MIT I don't get the prompt. I see the welcome > message, and it correctly identifies the machine as a PDP-12, but that's > it. As I've found out it apparently overwrites its code, the processor > is looping around address 3600-3620. Examining the memory reveals that > the code at 3600 has been overwritten with junk. So it's clear that it > won't run anymore. What happens? Was anyone else able to run K12MIT on a > PDP-12? > > BTW the same binary runs fine on a PDP-8, be it a real machine or SIMH. Are you running SerialDisk on the same DP12 that K12MIT is trying to use? That might not work well, though I'm not sure why K12MIT would commit suicide about it. I haven't had much use for K12MIT -- the tools that come with the latest SerialDisk can take apart and rebuild/modify bootable/server images, so I just copy whatever to or the directory those tools are using and rebuild the image (or re-explode the server image and copy it out, to go the other way). Vince From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Nov 24 08:10:50 2021 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:10:50 +0100 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <13a1a6d7-08d5-49b0-938e-885b95427294@att.net> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> <13a1a6d7-08d5-49b0-938e-885b95427294@att.net> Message-ID: <94502778c5249485ecd803bc76e05f4a349b6523.camel@agj.net> tis 2021-11-23 klockan 18:06 -0800 skrev s shumaker via cctalk: > In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL > materials > related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless > the > contractor receives specific permission from the gov't? to retain it > - > usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on > contract.? When major contracts close, there is often a great > cleaning > out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible > because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle. > > Steve Hmmm, good for the company employees/managers and the DoE. If not, FBI could have had better material from the examinations of Rocky Flats 'cleanup operations' .... who said it was ok burning plutonium infested material ? And other misbehaviours : ie tri plumes in different parts of the US. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 08:42:12 2021 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:42:12 -0600 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <94502778c5249485ecd803bc76e05f4a349b6523.camel@agj.net> References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> <13a1a6d7-08d5-49b0-938e-885b95427294@att.net> <94502778c5249485ecd803bc76e05f4a349b6523.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to purge data older than x years and email after 1. On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 8:11 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > tis 2021-11-23 klockan 18:06 -0800 skrev s shumaker via cctalk: > > In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL > > materials > > related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless > > the > > contractor receives specific permission from the gov't to retain it > > - > > usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on > > contract. When major contracts close, there is often a great > > cleaning > > out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible > > because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle. > > > > Steve > > Hmmm, good for the company employees/managers and the DoE. > > If not, FBI could have had better material from the examinations of > Rocky Flats 'cleanup operations' .... > > who said it was ok burning plutonium infested material ? > > And other misbehaviours : ie tri plumes in different parts of the US. > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 24 10:18:30 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:18:30 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> <13a1a6d7-08d5-49b0-938e-885b95427294@att.net> <94502778c5249485ecd803bc76e05f4a349b6523.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It > was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface > documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. > Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections > (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once > bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to > purge data older than x years and email after 1. Sometimes it's corporate policy. Back in the 1970s, some institution (college?) picked up all sorts of CDC 6000-series bits and pieces from surplus dealers and assembled their own working machine. They then called on CDC for servicing the beast. Bill Norris reportedly went through the roof. The directive came from on high that any CDC-owned equipment taken out of services was to be rendered into an unusable, unsalvageable state before disposal. I witnessed CEs taking hammers to disk drives and mainframes, bolt cutters, etc. I used to have a Bryant disk platter that I smuggled out of the facility with the intention of turning into a side table, but it was lost in a house move. I've just got a few cordwood modules, a head from an 808 drive and a heatsink from a STAR-1B. I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but it could well have been similar. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 24 12:51:39 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:51:39 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> <13a1a6d7-08d5-49b0-938e-885b95427294@att.net> <94502778c5249485ecd803bc76e05f4a349b6523.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >> I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It >> was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface >> documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. >> Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections >> (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once >> bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to >> purge data older than x years and email after 1. > > Sometimes it's corporate policy. > ... > I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but > it could well have been similar. Could be. The government case sounds more like an attempt to render the public records laws ineffective by destroying records before they can be requisitioned. My corporate experience suggests that the loss of software materials is most likely just lack of interest, or lack of an explicit archiving policy. Consider DEC: the software projects I worked on had their internal source code storage, and backups of same. At some point they added some flavor of source control machinery, once those became available and popular. But while customer kits (binary kits) were sent to the Software Distribution Center for multiplication and distribution, I never saw any indication that the corresponding source code state was captured and saved, let alone archived in some central archive. So, for example, while the RSTS team had the RSTS sources, they didn't exist (in any planned form) elsewhere that I know of, nor did a full record of older releases exist anywhere. And when projects are closed down, their resources would tend to just disappear. paul From leec2124 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 16:52:53 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:52:53 -0800 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <9fef09ea-8f52-4327-f9a7-ee8f4b2cb7d9@att.net> <46530055-d278-96e6-494e-3c6776fe65f8@shiresoft.com> <8fc1931e-7c6b-7404-a1e7-37eb2de589f8@sydex.com> <45c16b30-9b52-a034-8e62-50324e55dd85@sydex.com> <13a1a6d7-08d5-49b0-938e-885b95427294@att.net> <94502778c5249485ecd803bc76e05f4a349b6523.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: There is at least one major semiconductor company that has (had?) an internal group tasked with recovering (HW designs/software/firmware) IP off of "obsolete" media - reel tape, paper tape, floppy discs, other, and preserving for internal use. Was a substantial effort, meaning dedicated people, $$$, and R&D resources. There were many motivations for this recovery work, One was use of older, but still technically viable, processor IP that could be migrated to newer process nodes. I worked on an unrelated project where we actually used an "older archived" processor design, updated to contemporary node technology, taped out, and released a product. Initially for internal customers. Another team took and released a processor core product externally. A very cool project, probably one of the most interesting in my career. I did make attempts to cross-pollinate this internal corporate group with CHM, and they were very interested in talking with CHM. But, by then CHM had fully morphed into a social club for the glitterati and elite of Silicon Valley, and was no longer interested in restoration and preservation heavy lifting. Too bad, they were geographically close and there could have been some very fruitful collaboration for both parties. In retrospect I suspect LCM would have been a more fruitful introduction. Oh well, coulda, soulda, woulda... ;-) Lee Courtney On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 10:51 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 24, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > >> I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It > >> was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and > deface > >> documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. > >> Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of > corrections > >> (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once > >> bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies > to > >> purge data older than x years and email after 1. > > > > Sometimes it's corporate policy. > > ... > > I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but > > it could well have been similar. > > Could be. The government case sounds more like an attempt to render the > public records laws ineffective by destroying records before they can be > requisitioned. > > My corporate experience suggests that the loss of software materials is > most likely just lack of interest, or lack of an explicit archiving policy. > > Consider DEC: the software projects I worked on had their internal source > code storage, and backups of same. At some point they added some flavor of > source control machinery, once those became available and popular. But > while customer kits (binary kits) were sent to the Software Distribution > Center for multiplication and distribution, I never saw any indication that > the corresponding source code state was captured and saved, let alone > archived in some central archive. So, for example, while the RSTS team had > the RSTS sources, they didn't exist (in any planned form) elsewhere that I > know of, nor did a full record of older releases exist anywhere. > > And when projects are closed down, their resources would tend to just > disappear. > > paul > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Nov 24 17:18:08 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:18:08 -0700 Subject: Extra books Message-ID: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Hi, I find myself with some extra books (acquired as part of an auction) that I don't have any interest in keeping. As such, they are available to move to a home that will appreciate them more than mine will. - CBASIC Simplified - Jeffrey R. Weber - 0-938862-10-3 - Mastering CP/M - Alan R. Miller - 0-89588-068-7 - Osborne CP/M User Guide Second Edition - Thom Hogan - 0-931988-82-9 - The Programmer's CP/M Handbook - Andy Johnson-Laird - 0-88134-103-7 - Understanding Pascal - George Ledin Jr. - 0-88248-149-1 - Turbo Pascal Reference Manual from Borland - Pascal With Style - Henry F. Ledgard / John F. Hueras / Paul A. Nagin - 0-8104-5124-7 - Pascal User Manual and Report Second Edition - Kathleen Jensen / Miklaus Wirth - 0-387-90144-2 / 3-540-90144-2 - Invitation to Pascal - Hary Katzan Jr. - 089433-103-5 - Oh! Pascal! - Doug Cooper / Michael Clancy - 0-393-95205-3 - Pascal Programs for Scientists and Engineers - Alan R. Miller - 0-89588-058-X - Mastering Turbo Pascal 5.5 Third Edition - Tom Swan - 0-672-48450-1 I'm mostly asking for postage and handling for book(s). If you want to tip your waiter, that's appreciated too. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 17:24:58 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:24:58 -0600 Subject: Extra books In-Reply-To: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Hi, Some there I'd be interested in maybe if not all. Where are you located? Best, David Williams On 11/24/2021 5:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I find myself with some extra books (acquired as part of an auction) > that I don't have any interest in keeping.? As such, they are available > to move to a home that will appreciate them more than mine will. > > ?- CBASIC Simplified - Jeffrey R. Weber - 0-938862-10-3 > ?- Mastering CP/M - Alan R. Miller - 0-89588-068-7 > ?- Osborne CP/M User Guide Second Edition - Thom Hogan - 0-931988-82-9 > ?- The Programmer's CP/M Handbook - Andy Johnson-Laird - 0-88134-103-7 > ?- Understanding Pascal - George Ledin Jr. - 0-88248-149-1 > ?- Turbo Pascal Reference Manual from Borland > ?- Pascal With Style - Henry F. Ledgard / John F. Hueras / Paul A. > Nagin - 0-8104-5124-7 > ?- Pascal User Manual and Report Second Edition - Kathleen Jensen / > Miklaus Wirth - 0-387-90144-2 / 3-540-90144-2 > ?- Invitation to Pascal - Hary Katzan Jr. - 089433-103-5 > ?- Oh! Pascal! - Doug Cooper / Michael Clancy - 0-393-95205-3 > ?- Pascal Programs for Scientists and Engineers - Alan R. Miller - > 0-89588-058-X > ?- Mastering Turbo Pascal 5.5 Third Edition - Tom Swan - 0-672-48450-1 > > I'm mostly asking for postage and handling for book(s).? If you want to > tip your waiter, that's appreciated too. > > > From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Nov 24 17:52:03 2021 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:52:03 -0700 Subject: For Sale, Seattle area: Data General MV/7800 + drives, docs In-Reply-To: <635b7dfa-5563-2cdc-3f83-f4d1614262e0@schroeder-edv.de> References: <635b7dfa-5563-2cdc-3f83-f4d1614262e0@schroeder-edv.de> Message-ID: <76ef7ff2-b499-8d65-76cd-d48fa0c28b75@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Lothar - I will contact you off-list... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 11/23/2021 5:39 AM, info--- via cctech wrote: > Hi Josh, > > my name is Lother Schr?der. > I'm living in Germany and I'm a collector of Data General machines. > It would be nice to get the machine, but I'm afraid it's too difficult > to get it here to germany. > I have a MV/7800 here in my collection, but no documentation and software. > > My question is: > Can you tell me what documentation or tapes you have? > Perhaps I can get a copy. > > Thanks for today > > Kindly regards > Lothar From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Nov 24 18:34:14 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:34:14 -0700 Subject: Extra books In-Reply-To: References: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 11/24/21 4:24 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > Hi, Hi David, > Some there I'd be interested in maybe if not all. Where are you located? Denver Colorado, U.S.A. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Nov 24 20:46:00 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:46:00 -0700 Subject: Extra books In-Reply-To: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 11/24/21 4:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I find myself with some extra books (acquired as part of an auction) > that I don't have any interest in keeping.? As such, they are available > to move to a home that will appreciate them more than mine will. The CBASIC and CP/M books have been spoken for. The Pascal books have a home if nobody raises their hand in the next few days. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 25 03:15:55 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:15:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Are you running SerialDisk on the same DP12 that K12MIT is trying to use? > That might not work well, though I'm not sure why K12MIT would commit suicide > about it. Hmm... good point, I think that I have tried both, from LINCtape and from SerialDisk. I know, the latter won't work, but at least I should get the prompt, no? > I haven't had much use for K12MIT -- the tools that come with the latest > SerialDisk can take apart and rebuild/modify bootable/server images, so I > just copy whatever to or the directory those tools are using and rebuild the > image (or re-explode the server image and copy it out, to go the other way). I haven't understood the tools to build these disk images. There is no documentation IIRC. But I use SIMH and have a transfer disk image that I can mount with SerialDisk. There is one nuisance, though: SerialDisk won't see the updated image unless restarted. The advantage of SIMH is that I can "import" paper tape images (BIN or ASCII). That is something even PUTR can't accomplish. Christian From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 25 10:44:48 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:44:48 -0700 Subject: Extra books In-Reply-To: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <495bdd9b-612d-073b-cdcf-95ac9016a229@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <34f34258-dd81-8ccc-8133-eb7a8b02de60@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/24/21 4:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I find myself with some extra books (acquired as part of an auction) > that I don't have any interest in keeping.? As such, they are available > to move to a home that will appreciate them more than mine will. All of the books have been spoken for. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cliendo at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 11:16:16 2021 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:16:16 -0500 Subject: Jim Warren has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://web.stanford.edu/~allison/JimWarren.html For those who do not know about Jim Warren Jim Warren's wiki page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Warren_(computer_specialist) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 25 11:55:48 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 18:55:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2021, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Are you running SerialDisk on the same DP12 that K12MIT is trying to use? > Hmm... good point, I think that I have tried both, from LINCtape and from > SerialDisk. I know, the latter won't work, but at least I should get the > prompt, no? Just tried without SerialDisk... no difference. K12MIT is broken on the PDP-12. Christian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 25 12:16:10 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:16:10 -0800 Subject: Jim Warren has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73d8ec16-0419-906f-55b7-1362ea9b883d@sydex.com> On 11/25/21 9:16 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: > https://web.stanford.edu/~allison/JimWarren.html > > For those who do not know about Jim Warren > > Jim Warren's wiki page > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Warren_(computer_specialist) As a longtime subscriber to DDJ and attendee at WCCF, I'm sorry to hear that. But then, when I ask my Lovely Wife if she's heard from so-and-so, the usual response is "he (or she) died a couple of years ago". --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 25 14:11:16 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:11:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Warren has passed away In-Reply-To: <73d8ec16-0419-906f-55b7-1362ea9b883d@sydex.com> References: <73d8ec16-0419-906f-55b7-1362ea9b883d@sydex.com> Message-ID: When he founded DDJ ("dr. dobb's journal Of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics And Orthodontia : Running Light Without Overbyte"), they considered it to be a reference, not a newspaper, and kept reprints of the old issues available in bound form. But, after Jim was gone, the title became merely "Dr. Dobb's Journal" with subtitles that ranged from "Tools for professional programmers", "World Of Software Development", etc. I think that it ended with "management Information Systems"? Much as "Tinker-Toys" became "Morrow Designs", "Kentucky Fried Computers" became "NorthStar", and "Intergalactic Digital Research" became "Digital Research, Inc." Jim used to roll around WCCF (1977 - 1983) on roller skates, which put his head above the top of the crowd, and let him keep an eye on everything going on. His assistant in those days was Nels Anderson. I'm not sure that Jim needed the skates to be head and shoulders above most. After WCCF had deteriorated badly under the new owners, he was the guest of honor at S.O.G. ("Semi Official Gathering" put on in Bend Oregon, by Dave Thompson of MicroCornucopia magazine). We presented him with a pair of skates, and told him that it was time for him to put them back on, that the world of computers needed him. I don't know who provided them; I was the one who had suggested it to Dave Thompson. I was tied for #1 for booth selection, even though I never had a booth larger than 10x10 and hadn't exhibited at the first three Faires (SF, San Jose, Los Angeles), when the suits discontinued the booth selection priority list. I think that it was Jim's "Journal Of Intelligent Machines", that eventually decomposed into "Infoworld", or maybe "Silicon Gulch Gaqzette", that had the subtitle of "machines who think", instead of the canonical "machines that think". But, it might have been one of his other periodicals; can anybody pin that down? GOOGLE'ing people we knew tends to be very sad. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 25 14:42:57 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:42:57 -0800 Subject: Jim Warren has passed away In-Reply-To: References: <73d8ec16-0419-906f-55b7-1362ea9b883d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/25/21 12:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > When he founded DDJ ("dr. dobb's journal Of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics And > Orthodontia : Running Light Without Overbyte"), they considered it to be > a reference, not a newspaper, and kept reprints of the old issues > available in bound form. > Still have my Vol 1, No. 1 of DDJ. I suspect that many of the kids revisiting vintage computers are unaware of his contributions. I find it increasingly difficult to remember many of the early 1970s faces. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 25 20:56:02 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 02:56:02 +0000 Subject: Jim Warren has passed away In-Reply-To: References: <73d8ec16-0419-906f-55b7-1362ea9b883d@sydex.com> Message-ID: Wasn't it Jim that had the house overlooking the Pacific ocean that was off Skyline Blvd? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2021 12:42 PM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: Re: Jim Warren has passed away On 11/25/21 12:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > When he founded DDJ ("dr. dobb's journal Of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics And > Orthodontia : Running Light Without Overbyte"), they considered it to be > a reference, not a newspaper, and kept reprints of the old issues > available in bound form. > Still have my Vol 1, No. 1 of DDJ. I suspect that many of the kids revisiting vintage computers are unaware of his contributions. I find it increasingly difficult to remember many of the early 1970s faces. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 25 21:03:40 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 19:03:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jim Warren has passed away In-Reply-To: References: <73d8ec16-0419-906f-55b7-1362ea9b883d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Wasn't it Jim that had the house overlooking the Pacific ocean that was off Skyline Blvd? > Dwight Yes I was never at that house, he came to Berkeley instead, but I'd heard about it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chris at groessler.org Fri Nov 26 02:19:04 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:19:04 +0100 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <677a2f16-aa92-f44b-ce70-6bc2d97c16a8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <50bdb957-4731-7a82-64c5-ee90aa04fa2c@groessler.org> On 11/20/21 5:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who > periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family > photos. That is the only practical way to preserve things or than if the > original paper/photo/tape exists and is still readable. Extending to > vintage computing, there will always have to be a community of archivists. You need one family archivist _every second generation_, at least, if you want to cover more that 50 or so year of family history/pictures. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 26 03:43:07 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:43:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <8fc89368-25fb-13ac-ee6-2680e08a3644@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021, Christian Corti wrote: > Just tried without SerialDisk... no difference. K12MIT is broken on the > PDP-12. I've found the bug. Charles Lasner broke PDP-12 support (and probably also older PDP-8 models like 8/I) with his additions to support the DECmate family. The location is at 0206, labelled SETBAUD. This should be a NOP on standard systems, but is overlayed by an IOT to set the baud rate on a DECmate 1. This results in a 6413 instruction (because I have assembled it for the second serial port on 40/41). This instruction always skips (as the transmitter done flag is always set), thus jumping into a 4411 that is the address of a CRLF to be printed but executed as a JMS into nirvana. The very same code runs fine on a PDP-8/E with a KL8/E interface that apparently either ignores this instruction or, by other means, has the flag cleared. If patching location 0206 to 7000 (NOP), K12MIT will run on a PDP-12. Sending files works, but receiving seems to be broken. Most of the times, the sending Kermit aborts the transfer to the PDP-12 with a out-of-window-NACK error (confirmed by looking at the protocol debug log). K12MIT sends a NACK to a previous packet that it already ACK'ed *after* receiving the next data packet. Here's the code fragment: 1827 000200 5777 CLOOP, JMP I (INITIALIZE) /**** INITIALIZED **** CLA CLL /024 CJL 1828 000201 4577 JMS I [CRESET] /RESET CONSOLE ROUTINE STUFF 1829 000202 3002 DCA ABFLAG /CLEAR ABORT FLAG /044 CJL 1830 000203 3105 DCA REMWAIT /CLEAR REMOTE FLOW CONTROL WAIT /049 CJL 1831 000204 4324 CLDMZAP,JMS DMINIT /INITIALIZE DECMATE PORT /048 CJL 1832 1833 / THE PREVIOUS INSTRUCTION IS FOR DECMATE OPERATION ONLY. THE DEFAULT 1834 / INSTRUCTION IS FOR KL8 INTERFACES ONLY. 1835 1836 0204 *CLDMZAP /OVERLAY DECMATE CODE /048 CJL 1837 1838 000204 7000 CLDMZAP,NOP /DON'T INITIALIZE DECMATE PORT /048 CJL 1839 000205 1007 TAD RATE /GET BAUD RATE 1840 000206 6363 SETBAUD,MSB /SET REMOTE BAUD RATE /050 CJL 1841 1842 / THE PREVIOUS INSTRUCTION IS FOR DECMATE II OPERATION ONLY. /050 CJL 1843 1844 0206 *SETBAUD /OVERLAY DECMATE II CODE /050 CJL 1845 1846 000206 7000 SETBAUD,NOP /NOT APPLICABLE ON DECMATE I /050 CJL 1847 1848 / THE PREVIOUS INSTRUCTION IS FOR DECMATE I OPERATION ONLY. THE DEFAULT 1849 / INSTRUCTION IS FOR KL8 INTERFACES ONLY. 1850 1851 0206 *SETBAUD /OVERLAY DECMATE I CODE /050 CJL 1852 1853 000206 6413 SETBAUD,RSBIOT /SET REMOTE BAUD RATE /050 CJL 1854 000207 4576 JMS I [SCRIBE] /DO A /025 CJL 1855 000210 4411 CRLF /, /025 CJL 1856 000211 4576 JMS I [SCRIBE] /GIVE THEM THE /025 CJL 1857 000212 4457 PRMTMSG /PROMPT MESSAGE /025 CJL 1858 000213 4776 JMS I (LININP) /GET INPUT LINE FROM USER Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 08:20:13 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:20:13 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <50bdb957-4731-7a82-64c5-ee90aa04fa2c@groessler.org> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <677a2f16-aa92-f44b-ce70-6bc2d97c16a8@alembic.crystel.com> <50bdb957-4731-7a82-64c5-ee90aa04fa2c@groessler.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 3:19 AM Christian Groessler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/20/21 5:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who > > periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family > > photos. That is the only practical way to preserve things or than if the > > original paper/photo/tape exists and is still readable. Extending to > > vintage computing, there will always have to be a community of > archivists. > > > You need one family archivist _every second generation_, at least, if > you want to cover more that 50 or so year of family history/pictures. > To be clear to my original point, I believe there needs to be a family archivist to knows how to manage and transfer whatever it is that they store images of family events in every generation. Someone who passes the ball at each generation to the next. Who knows, it might become popular to print photos again after the great solar event of 2045 (for example) Bill From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 08:36:33 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:36:33 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <677a2f16-aa92-f44b-ce70-6bc2d97c16a8@alembic.crystel.com> <50bdb957-4731-7a82-64c5-ee90aa04fa2c@groessler.org> Message-ID: <0c458fc2-7c3a-93ac-2654-47208e52e99a@gmail.com> I've been passively following this topic for some time now and haven't had anything to contribute, but now I do! Between this list and others, such as NetBSD, I have recently been able to bring up NetBSD on my ancient MicroVAX-II, which I originally bought as a used system back in 1992. My only means of getting anything into it was the ethernet adapter, and I found that the MOP loader in linux did not support the ELF files used by DEC. Not only did I get expert advice from people with first-hand knowledge, but an author of mopd replied and fixed the problem! So now I wonder, in addition to documentation being lost, what are people in the future going to do if they choose or are employed to maintain such equipment in museums?? Are there even going to be any museums?? Where will they get the advice such as been given to me? Over the centuries, governments have seen fit to preserve history in the arts and humanities with public funding and benefactors have given money to have their name obn the door, but what about computers Since computers now run pretty much everything in the world, shouldn't we be lobbying governments to provide funding for computer museums and employ qualified curators? Just my .01 worth! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-11-26 9:20 a.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 3:19 AM Christian Groessler via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 11/20/21 5:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> That's why I am saying you literally need a family archivist who >>> periodically converts content on old media to new media for.old family >>> photos. That is the only practical way to preserve things or than if the >>> original paper/photo/tape exists and is still readable. Extending to >>> vintage computing, there will always have to be a community of >> archivists. >> >> >> You need one family archivist _every second generation_, at least, if >> you want to cover more that 50 or so year of family history/pictures. >> > > > To be clear to my original point, I believe there needs to be a family > archivist to knows how to manage and transfer whatever it is that they > store images of family events in every generation. Someone who passes the > ball at each generation to the next. Who knows, it might become popular > to print photos again after the great solar event of 2045 (for example) > > Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 10:28:52 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:28:52 -0500 Subject: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation In-Reply-To: <0c458fc2-7c3a-93ac-2654-47208e52e99a@gmail.com> References: <3083f8ff3f1ae4af4fadfeed9e642950.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <677a2f16-aa92-f44b-ce70-6bc2d97c16a8@alembic.crystel.com> <50bdb957-4731-7a82-64c5-ee90aa04fa2c@groessler.org> <0c458fc2-7c3a-93ac-2654-47208e52e99a@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > > Since computers now run pretty much everything in the world, shouldn't > we be lobbying governments to provide funding for computer museums and > employ qualified curators? > > Just my .01 worth! > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > That's a fantastic idea. From web at loomcom.com Fri Nov 26 11:05:10 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:05:10 -0800 Subject: Jim Warren has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d4ad135-1470-441a-896b-7689784ed979@www.fastmail.com> On Thu, Nov 25, 2021, at 9:16 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote: > https://web.stanford.edu/~allison/JimWarren.html > > For those who do not know about Jim Warren > > Jim Warren's wiki page > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Warren_(computer_specialist) Very sad to hear of his passing, his contributions to the growth of personal computing are legendary. If only I had known he had retired to a spot just up the road from me (quite literally), I would have loved to have had a beer with him. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From alsilisk at icloud.com Fri Nov 26 15:52:40 2021 From: alsilisk at icloud.com (Al) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 21:52:40 -0000 Subject: IBM transistor replacements Message-ID: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> Dear all, A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the transistors in the printer section have been corroded. What I am having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern equivalent of them. There are two types. One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house numbered? Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing The other is an IBM transistor with what appears to be a 3 digit part code; for which I have been pointed to a list of house numbering and equivalents on the 1401 website. I was told the list is much older and I fear it might be out of date. However there is an entry for the part codes on my IBM transistors. Should I trust the list for replacements? http://ibm-1401.info/BobEricksonIBM-Transistor-Substitution.html Thanks in advance, Al From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 26 19:11:24 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 19:11:24 -0600 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> References: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> Message-ID: <8e74b3d6-c2c3-f3f3-53b7-c6a39a833714@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/21 3:52 PM, Al via cctalk wrote: > Dear all, > A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly > some of the transistors in the printer section have been > corroded. What I am having trouble with is reading the > part codes and finding a modern equivalent of them. > There are two types. > > One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does > anybody know which numbers are the part numbers and if > they are IBM house numbered? > Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing > The other is an IBM transistor with what appears to be a 3 > digit part code; for which I have been pointed to a list > of house numbering and equivalents on the 1401 website. I > was told the list is much older and I fear it might be out > of date. However there is an entry for the part codes on > my IBM transistors. > > Should I trust the list for replacements? > http://ibm-1401.info/BobEricksonIBM-Transistor-Substitution.html > The cards appear to be SLT-style fabrication, it seems there may even be SLT modules on one of them (the 1/2" square aluminum-capped blocks.) The 1401 list would be for SMS cards, they were yellow paper-phenolic cards with TO-5 and TO-18 discrete Germanium transistors.? The SLT vintage were generally all Silicon transistors. Almost all this stuff had IBM house numbers. Jon From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 19:48:23 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 17:48:23 -0800 Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On 11/25/2021 1:15 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> I haven't had much use for K12MIT -- the tools that come with the >> latest SerialDisk can take apart and rebuild/modify bootable/server >> images, so I just copy whatever to or the directory those tools are >> using and rebuild the image (or re-explode the server image and copy >> it out, to go the other way). > > I haven't understood the tools to build these disk images. There is no > documentation IIRC. But I use SIMH and have a transfer disk image that I > can mount with SerialDisk. There is one nuisance, though: SerialDisk > won't see the updated image unless restarted. The advantage of SIMH is > that I can "import" paper tape images (BIN or ASCII). That is something > even PUTR can't accomplish. It has become clear that my documentation is inadequate. (You aren't the first to complain.) As mentioned in the installer/README.md, the "sdsk" script is the fancy "does it all" installer. It requires perl, a couple of other packages as mentioned, and the tools from the "tools" directory. As mentioned in the tools/README.md, the tools directory is a subset of the "8tools", a suite of software forensics tools which are targeted at the PDP-8. (Instructions in tools/README.md on where to get those.) The 8tools do come with a "doc" sub-directory with a write-up of each tool. The tools, with the exception of the cross-assembler (C source provided), are perl scripts, and contain source code but not really any documentation. pal is a cross-assembler, which will take PAL source and generate a listing (.lst) and a binary (.bin). It's main use is to convert Serialdisk source in ../handler to .bin files. (Do the "make" in ../handler first!) bin2bn converts .bin files to proper OS/8 format by padding them with trailer bytes to a multiple of the OS/8 block size. The result can be included with the files used to build OS/8 images. bincmp is a comparison tool which will diff .bin (or .bn) files. os8xplode takes a ".dsk" file and explodes it into directories containing the individual files for each file-system found. It also writes an ".xml" description of the OS/8 volume so that "mkdsk" can re-construct it. mkdsk reads the .xml mentioned above, and the various individual files, and reconstructs the specified OS/8 volume. os8implode is a tools that scans the (probably modified) directories associated with a disk volume, and writes a new .xml description suitable for mkdsk. The magic "dot" files will be used to reconstruct the system areas, and all files that match the OS/8 "6.2" naming convention will be included in the new image. installer/sdsk, then, rounds up the SerialDisk drivers from ../handler for inclusion in the new volume, then runs os8implode and mkdsk to construct a volume that has the .bn files for the drivers. Then it runs SIMH (see "installer/runbuild" and "installer/pdp8.ini"). SIMH will then be fed the commands to convert your OS/8 volume into a SerialDisk volume. runbuild is an expect script, which is why you need to install expect :-). For this to work correctly, you need to install the packages mentioned in the installer/README.md and add the tools directory to your path. Then a simple ./sdsk should work. (You can edit sdsk to select another image from ../disks.) Your new volume will have a name like "diagpack2.new", and can be served with the server from ../server. Hope that helps! Vince From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 23:06:16 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 01:06:16 -0400 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <8e74b3d6-c2c3-f3f3-53b7-c6a39a833714@pico-systems.com> References: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> <8e74b3d6-c2c3-f3f3-53b7-c6a39a833714@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2021-11-26 9:11 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/26/21 3:52 PM, Al via cctalk wrote: >> Dear all, >> A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the >> transistors in the printer section have been corroded. What I am >> having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern >> equivalent of them. >> There are two types. >> >> One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody >> know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house >> numbered? >> Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing >> The other is an IBM transistor with what appears to be a 3 digit part >> code; for which I have been pointed to a list of house numbering and >> equivalents on the 1401 website. I was told the list is much older >> and I fear it might be out of date. However there is an entry for the >> part codes on my IBM transistors. >> >> Should I trust the list for replacements? >> http://ibm-1401.info/BobEricksonIBM-Transistor-Substitution.html > > The cards appear to be SLT-style fabrication, it seems there may even > be SLT modules on one of them (the 1/2" square aluminum-capped blocks.) > > The 1401 list would be for SMS cards, they were yellow paper-phenolic > cards with TO-5 and TO-18 discrete Germanium transistors.? The SLT > vintage were generally all Silicon transistors. > > Almost all this stuff had IBM house numbers. > > Jon > The 3286 printer was part of the first generation 3270 system with 3271 &? 3272 controllers and 3277 display stations, so this is early 1970s technology the packaging is similar to SLT but the chip technology was not like the hybrid SLT modules as used in 360 systems.? I would agree that the parts would be all house numbered.? My guess is that the 139 is the type number and the other number is a date code it seems to me that this board is the drivers for the stepper motor that moves the carriage, but it has been nearly 40 years since I worked on one of these printers.? I would suspect that these transistors are pre-drivers for the power transistors and may not be super critical to get an exact replacement.? Did you get manuals with the printer?? If so it should have ALDs (schematics). One thing I remember about the 3284 (similar but slower)? and 3286 is print timing was derived from two emitter wheels on the extreme left and if you got them to far out of adjustment, the carriage would take off and slam into the right frame and then come back and slam into the left frame making enough noise to get the attention of the customer.? These printers where replaced by the 3287 which was much easier to maintain, and while it was designed for the "New Display system" they where available with a interface card that would allow them to work with 3271 and 3272 controllers. The 3286 printers and 3277 terminals where infamous for intermittent problems that you would try to isolate by swapping some of the cards with another terminal or printer and leave a note in both explaining what cards where swapped and why.? It was not uncommon to old notes half buried in dust in the bottom of 3277 terminals that went back years. Paul. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Nov 27 00:33:21 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 22:33:21 -0800 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> References: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> Message-ID: <181FF398-A581-4069-88C4-A587B423BFD9@shaw.ca> On 2021-Nov-26, at 1:52 PM, Al via cctalk wrote: > A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the transistors in the printer section have been corroded. What I am having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern equivalent of them. > There are two types. > > One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house numbered? > Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing Have you checked/measured whether they're actually faulty? Yes, they look terrible, but that doesn't mean they're faulty. It looks like minor corrosion of the steel case under its plating; unless it's all the way through the die is probably fine and cozy inside. The electrically active parts of the transistor typically aren't as susceptible to corrosion as the steel case is. (Notable exception to this being 70's-era TI ICs with plated steel pins. I've also seen some Motorola ICs with corroded pins). From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 00:51:01 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 22:51:01 -0800 Subject: K12MIT on PDP-12 In-Reply-To: <8fc89368-25fb-13ac-ee6-2680e08a3644@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <41dedf5-847c-b96b-d5af-ebc70e7b7f5@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <8fc89368-25fb-13ac-ee6-2680e08a3644@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <6f302c22-f94f-31ae-34fa-ef0998703a6e@gmail.com> On 11/26/2021 1:43 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > I've found the bug. Charles Lasner broke PDP-12 support (and probably > also older PDP-8 models like 8/I) with his additions to support the > DECmate family. The location is at 0206, labelled SETBAUD. This should > be a NOP on standard systems, but is overlayed by an IOT to set the baud > rate on a DECmate 1. This results in a 6413 instruction (because I have > assembled it for the second serial port on 40/41). This instruction > always skips (as the transmitter done flag is always set), thus jumping > into a 4411 that is the address of a CRLF to be printed but executed as > a JMS into nirvana. It took a bit of puzzling to follow, but I think I see. There are three possibilities; the the DMI should have a "NOP", and the DMII should have "MSB". DM2LIS correctly has the MSB patch for DMII, and DM1LIS has a NOP as it perhaps should. The problem is that the default for "KL8" interface uses an "RSBIOT". I don't think that will work for anything but the KL8J/M8655, though it should be harmless on the KL8E/M8650. I'd argue that the correct thing would be to detect an 8/e/f/m/a and patch in "RSBIOT". The default "family of eight" thing should be the "NOP", same as the DM1. > If patching location 0206 to 7000 (NOP), K12MIT will run on a PDP-12. Yep. > Sending files works, but receiving seems to be broken. Most of the > times, the sending Kermit aborts the transfer to the PDP-12 with a > out-of-window-NACK error (confirmed by looking at the protocol debug > log). K12MIT sends a NACK to a previous packet that it already ACK'ed > *after* receiving the next data packet. Alas, I don't know enough about Kermit protocol to comment on that. Vince From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 27 14:17:02 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 12:17:02 -0800 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <181FF398-A581-4069-88C4-A587B423BFD9@shaw.ca> References: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> <181FF398-A581-4069-88C4-A587B423BFD9@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 2021-11-26 at 22:33 -0800, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-Nov-26, at 1:52 PM, Al via cctalk wrote: > > > A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the > > transistors in the printer section have been corroded. What I am > > having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern > > equivalent of them. > > There are two types. > > > > One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody > > know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house > > numbered? > > Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing > > > > Have you checked/measured whether they're actually faulty? Yes, they > look terrible, but that doesn't mean they're faulty. It looks like > minor corrosion of the steel case under its plating; unless it's all > the way through the die is probably fine and cozy inside. The > electrically active parts of the transistor typically aren't as > susceptible to corrosion as the steel case is. > > (Notable exception to this being 70's-era TI ICs with plated steel > pins. I've also seen some Motorola ICs with corroded pins). The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has two IBM 1401's that are in operating order. One of the problems they had in getting one of them to work was that some of the IBM transistors also have plated steel leads that had rusted through. Ask Rob Garner , the leader of the 1401 restoration project, if he recognizes the numbers. From alsilisk at icloud.com Sat Nov 27 14:34:42 2021 From: alsilisk at icloud.com (Al) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:34:42 -0000 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6wqBJQk0gdHJhbnNpc3RvciByZXBsYWNlbWVudHM=?= Message-ID: Thank you all for your responses and the leads you have given,??Responses to some of your questions and some more questions:?"Have you checked/measured whether they're actually faulty?"?Yes I have, in the picture I have provided on the bottom there are the ends of 3 transistor leads. This was one that fell off as I removed the card and by far the worst corroded, so despite the fact that the rest still work. I need to replace this one.?"?I would suspect that these transistors are pre-drivers for the power transistors and may not be super critical to get an exact replacement."?Would an NPN or PNP with the same HFE suffice, or do I need to know more? Forgive me but I am a complete idiot when it comes to this kind of circuit design and their tolerances.?"Did you get manuals with the printer?? If so it should have ALDs (schematics)."Unfortunately not, and nor can I find any online.?"The 3286 printers and 3277 terminals where infamous for intermittent problems"Excellent, glad I bought something that will provide the true IBM experience.?Thank you,?Al? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Nov 27 14:34:54 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:34:54 -0500 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: References: <0a98a700-b8d3-4001-b2b6-2cf003477586@me.com> <181FF398-A581-4069-88C4-A587B423BFD9@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 11/27/21 3:17 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 2021-11-26 at 22:33 -0800, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> On 2021-Nov-26, at 1:52 PM, Al via cctalk wrote: >> >>> A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the >>> transistors in the printer section have been corroded. What I am >>> having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern >>> equivalent of them. >>> There are two types. >>> >>> One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody >>> know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house >>> numbered? >>> Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: >>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing >> >> >> >> Have you checked/measured whether they're actually faulty? Yes, they >> look terrible, but that doesn't mean they're faulty. It looks like >> minor corrosion of the steel case under its plating; unless it's all >> the way through the die is probably fine and cozy inside. The >> electrically active parts of the transistor typically aren't as >> susceptible to corrosion as the steel case is. >> >> (Notable exception to this being 70's-era TI ICs with plated steel >> pins. I've also seen some Motorola ICs with corroded pins). > > The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has two IBM 1401's that > are in operating order. One of the problems they had in getting one of > them to work was that some of the IBM transistors also have plated > steel leads that had rusted through. Ask Rob Garner , > the leader of the 1401 restoration project, if he recognizes the > numbers. > Make sure you keep the room air conditioning in working order if you want an operating 1401. :-) bill From g-wright at att.net Sat Nov 27 14:53:17 2021 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:53:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Micro Technology Board Info References: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716@mail.yahoo.com> Have this board here, but can't find any Info on it. Says Neptune board on the silkscreen, tag say model MSD138 T devDates are about 1990 to 1992. https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu8x7bc5a08jw90/IMG_2200.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8z542sdnusjpqa/IMG_2201.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/xql6w5zhiismbel/IMG_2199.jpg?dl=0 - Jerry From w9gb at icloud.com Sat Nov 27 13:22:33 2021 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 13:22:33 -0600 Subject: IBM transistor replacements Message-ID: Al - The Texas Instruments (TI) 139 is likely a 2N139 PNP (BJT) transistor, capable of high speed switching (in that era). The 2N139 was originally an RCA transistor (tall cylinder) found in RCA and GE transistor radios (455 kHz IF section). The TI versions were low profile metal case, TO-33 case (8.5 to 9.5mm diameter) greg == From: Al To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IBM transistor replacements Dear all, A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the transistors in the printer section have been corroded. What I am having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern equivalent of them. One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house numbered? Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing Thanks in advance, Al From alaricnicoll at icloud.com Sat Nov 27 14:40:49 2021 From: alaricnicoll at icloud.com (Alaric Nicoll) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:40:49 +0000 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29C1AB3C-50CF-4B83-ABBB-2BF442FDD654@icloud.com> Apologies for the previous email and it?s disgusting formatting, here is a second attempt, hopefully it?s readable. Thank you all for your responses and leads, Responses to some of your questions and some more questions: "Have you checked/measured whether they're actually faulty?" Yes I have, in the picture I have provided on the bottom there are the ends of 3 transistor leads. This was one that fell off as I removed the card and by far the worst corroded, so despite the fact that the rest still work. I need to replace this one. ?I would suspect that these transistors are pre-drivers for the power transistors and may not be super critical to get an exact replacement." Would an NPN or PNP with the same HFE suffice, or do I need to know more? Forgive me but I am a complete idiot when it comes to this kind of circuit design and their tolerances. "Did you get manuals with the printer? If so it should have ALDs (schematics)." Unfortunately not, and nor can I find any online. "The 3286 printers and 3277 terminals where infamous for intermittent problems" Excellent, glad I bought something that will provide the true IBM experience. Thank you, Al > On 27 Nov 2021, at 20:35, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 11/27/21 3:17 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, 2021-11-26 at 22:33 -0800, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 2021-Nov-26, at 1:52 PM, Al via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the >>>> transistors in the printer section have been corroded. What I am >>>> having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern >>>> equivalent of them. >>>> There are two types. >>>> >>>> One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody >>>> know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house >>>> numbered? >>>> Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: >>>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing >>> >>> >>> >>> Have you checked/measured whether they're actually faulty? Yes, they >>> look terrible, but that doesn't mean they're faulty. It looks like >>> minor corrosion of the steel case under its plating; unless it's all >>> the way through the die is probably fine and cozy inside. The >>> electrically active parts of the transistor typically aren't as >>> susceptible to corrosion as the steel case is. >>> >>> (Notable exception to this being 70's-era TI ICs with plated steel >>> pins. I've also seen some Motorola ICs with corroded pins). >> The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has two IBM 1401's that >> are in operating order. One of the problems they had in getting one of >> them to work was that some of the IBM transistors also have plated >> steel leads that had rusted through. Ask Rob Garner , >> the leader of the 1401 restoration project, if he recognizes the >> numbers. > > Make sure you keep the room air conditioning in working order if > you want an operating 1401. :-) > > bill > From alsilisk at icloud.com Sat Nov 27 15:10:03 2021 From: alsilisk at icloud.com (Al) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 21:10:03 +0000 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06A0C6AC-FEBC-46DD-AC62-CD62D77918C5@icloud.com> Greg, Thank you, I will see if I can find a modern day equivalent of that and compare them, always useful to have spares on hand. Thanks, Al (Also, apologies for the hideous formatting on my last email, something got very broken somewhere) > On 27 Nov 2021, at 21:00, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote: > > ?Al - > > The Texas Instruments (TI) 139 is likely a 2N139 PNP (BJT) transistor, > capable of high speed switching (in that era). > > The 2N139 was originally an RCA transistor (tall cylinder) found in RCA and GE transistor radios (455 kHz IF section). > The TI versions were low profile metal case, TO-33 case (8.5 to 9.5mm diameter) > > greg > == > From: Al > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM transistor replacements > > Dear all, > > A while ago I received an IBM 3286 printer, annoyingly some of the transistors in the printer section have been corroded. > What I am having trouble with is reading the part codes and finding a modern equivalent of them. > > One has a Ti logo and two sets of numbers (attached). Does anybody know which numbers are the part numbers and if they are IBM house numbered? > > Photos of the Ti transistors and card assembly: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JTnsWS4A8NrYJNFsqK2ejOeqqJNjoF1w?usp=sharing > > Thanks in advance, > Al From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Nov 27 16:33:34 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 14:33:34 -0800 Subject: Micro Technology Board Info In-Reply-To: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716@mail.yahoo.com> References: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <237635973.1888744.1638046397716@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Are those 5 Xilinx chips FPGA?s? Any idea?s about what it came out of? Zane > On Nov 27, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > > Have this board here, but can't find any Info on it. > Says Neptune board on the silkscreen, tag say model MSD138 T devDates are about 1990 to 1992. > https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu8x7bc5a08jw90/IMG_2200.jpg?dl=0 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8z542sdnusjpqa/IMG_2201.jpg?dl=0 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/xql6w5zhiismbel/IMG_2199.jpg?dl=0 > > - Jerry From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 16:39:12 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 14:39:12 -0800 Subject: Micro Technology Board Info In-Reply-To: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716@mail.yahoo.com> References: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <237635973.1888744.1638046397716@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 12:53 PM Jerry Wright via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Have this board here, but can't find any Info on it. > Says Neptune board on the silkscreen, tag say model MSD138 T devDates are > about 1990 to 1992. > https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu8x7bc5a08jw90/IMG_2200.jpg?dl=0 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8z542sdnusjpqa/IMG_2201.jpg?dl=0 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/xql6w5zhiismbel/IMG_2199.jpg?dl=0 I believe that's an SDI to ESDI bridge. I have an enclosure marked "MTI MDI 240" on it that contains two of those, along with four ESDI disks, with SDI connectors on the rear. - Josh > > > - Jerry > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 16:43:22 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 14:43:22 -0800 Subject: Micro Technology Board Info In-Reply-To: References: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <237635973.1888744.1638046397716@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 2:39 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 12:53 PM Jerry Wright via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Have this board here, but can't find any Info on it. >> Says Neptune board on the silkscreen, tag say model MSD138 T devDates are >> about 1990 to 1992. >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu8x7bc5a08jw90/IMG_2200.jpg?dl=0 >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8z542sdnusjpqa/IMG_2201.jpg?dl=0 >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xql6w5zhiismbel/IMG_2199.jpg?dl=0 > > > I believe that's an SDI to ESDI bridge. I have an enclosure marked "MTI > MDI 240" on it that contains two of those, along with four ESDI disks, with > SDI connectors on the rear. > > - Josh > Here's a pic of the boards in mine. Looks to be identical: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMqKN2zHcNM6MUyS0b8Q - Josh From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Nov 27 16:50:10 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 14:50:10 -0800 Subject: Micro Technology Board Info In-Reply-To: References: <237635973.1888744.1638046397716.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <237635973.1888744.1638046397716@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63E5A9F2-571A-43A8-BF97-C976BDC540EF@avanthar.com> On Nov 27, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 12:53 PM Jerry Wright via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Have this board here, but can't find any Info on it. >> Says Neptune board on the silkscreen, tag say model MSD138 T devDates are >> about 1990 to 1992. >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu8x7bc5a08jw90/IMG_2200.jpg?dl=0 >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8z542sdnusjpqa/IMG_2201.jpg?dl=0 >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xql6w5zhiismbel/IMG_2199.jpg?dl=0 > > > I believe that's an SDI to ESDI bridge. I have an enclosure marked "MTI > MDI 240" on it that contains two of those, along with four ESDI disks, with > SDI connectors on the rear. > > - Josh That makes sense, I was thinking a drive bridge of some sort. Didn?t they also make SCSI to ESDI bridge? I think my first ESDI drive came out of an old Sun enclosure with one (I only took the drive). I miss the good old days of scrounging. We had a guy that was an Apartment Manager in the area, that was also doing scrapping, and I?d buy parts and systems off of him. Zane From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Nov 27 16:53:58 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 14:53:58 -0800 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AD6EC2-4D17-4A09-893A-20997C594ED2@shaw.ca> On 2021-Nov-27, at 11:22 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote: > > The Texas Instruments (TI) 139 is likely a 2N139 PNP (BJT) transistor, > capable of high speed switching (in that era). > > The 2N139 was originally an RCA transistor (tall cylinder) found in RCA and GE transistor radios (455 kHz IF section). > The TI versions were low profile metal case, TO-33 case (8.5 to 9.5mm diameter) From the JEDEC number, 2N139 would be a 50s-era transistor, way earlier than the ones at issue. 2N139 specs are Ge-PNP, 16V/12V CE max, 15mA IC max, 35mW max, which can find a use in transistor radios, but highly unlikely to be what the OP is looking for. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 17:09:22 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 18:09:22 -0500 Subject: IBM transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <40AD6EC2-4D17-4A09-893A-20997C594ED2@shaw.ca> References: <40AD6EC2-4D17-4A09-893A-20997C594ED2@shaw.ca> Message-ID: 139 is a "nickname" number. IBM used these nicknames for some reason, instead of the full IBM part number. A 139 is really an IBM part number 2414938, a silicon device in a TO-18. Gee, it would be great if this list could take pictures so I could just post one with all the specs... -- Will On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 5:54 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-Nov-27, at 11:22 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote: > > > > The Texas Instruments (TI) 139 is likely a 2N139 PNP (BJT) transistor, > > capable of high speed switching (in that era). > > > > The 2N139 was originally an RCA transistor (tall cylinder) found in RCA and GE transistor radios (455 kHz IF section). > > The TI versions were low profile metal case, TO-33 case (8.5 to 9.5mm diameter) > > > From the JEDEC number, 2N139 would be a 50s-era transistor, way earlier than the ones at issue. > 2N139 specs are Ge-PNP, 16V/12V CE max, 15mA IC max, 35mW max, which can find a use in transistor radios, but highly unlikely to be what the OP is looking for. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 27 20:06:11 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:06:11 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_=c2=a0IBM_transistor_replacements?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/27/21 2:34 PM, Al via cctalk wrote: > Thank you all for your responses and the leads you have > given,??Responses to some of your questions and some more > questions:?"Have you checked/measured whether they're > actually faulty?"?Yes I have, in the picture I have > provided on the bottom there are the ends of 3 transistor > leads. This was one that fell off as I removed the card > and by far the worst corroded, so despite the fact that > the rest still work. I need to replace this one. Yes, saw that in the pic.? Maybe you can scrape the leads and solder a blob to that one and take some measurements, if there is enough lead length left.? First thing is to determine if it is Germanium or Silicon.? The similar leads rusted through issue sounds like these may be from a transitional period between SMS-Germanium and SLT-Silicon, so they might be Ge.? If so, the forward drop of the BE junction will be about 0.3 V, instead of the Silicon's 0.7 V.? Finding Ge transistors today will not be easy. Jon From petermallan at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 11:42:03 2021 From: petermallan at gmail.com (Peter Allan) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:42:03 +0000 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? Message-ID: On 11/81/21,. Andrew Warkentin via cctalk wrote: >> What happened? Looking back at my emails, the list was operating normally >> until September 3. Then it just stopped. There were normal discussions >> going on. There was no flood of spam. As far as I can tell, nothing occured >> that would trigger a rage quit. >> >> Is the software and documentation that was on the site at least archived >> elsewhere? Has anybody downloaded it and can maybe upload to archive.org? >> >> Mike >> > I downloaded some of the software and documentation from there a long > time ago and still have it, although I didn't actually scrape the > entire site. I can upload what I've got to archive.org. > > The disk image kit of NOS 2.8.7 with CYBIS has been mirrored at > and most of > the documentation for it is available from the Wayback Machine at > < http://web.archive.org/web/20210421202420/http://www.control-data.info/CybisRelease.html > I have a working version of NOS 2.8.1, but I would like to be able to add software that is not included as part of the system that I downloaded from controlfreaks.org about 18 months ago. An example might be the ALGOL68 compiler. (I stress 'might be', as I haven't checked if that is on my system already. I just know there is 'some good stuff' that I want and which I don't have.) I have had a look on archive.org, but I can't find anything that looks like CDC NOS software tapes. A big part of my difficulty is likely to be that I don't have a list of what was available on controlfreaks.org in order to be able to do a detailed search. I did search archive.org for controlfreaks.org, but all I get is Controlfreaks.orgAuthorized Users Only This site is for the research into historic systems and software made by Control Data Corporation. If you think you can contribute, email to ControlfreaksAdmin to request a username/password for access to this site. All the content is over in the TWiki . When I click on the TWiki link, I get {ScriptUrlPath}/view/TWiki/TWikiRegistration which is not much use. Does anyone have a list of the CDC software that was available from controlfreaks.org? Cheers Peter Allan From sieler at allegro.com Sun Nov 28 13:27:20 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:27:20 -0800 Subject: Datapoint 2200 on ebay Message-ID: Noticed a Datapoint 2200 on ebay.... https://www.ebay.com/itm/275043446827 They're asking $48,000 I want one...but not for that price! :) From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Nov 28 13:31:00 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:31:00 -0500 Subject: Datapoint 2200 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's supposed to be 48.00 On November 28, 2021 2:27:20 PM EST, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: >Noticed a Datapoint 2200 on ebay.... >https://www.ebay.com/itm/275043446827 > >They're asking $48,000 > >I want one...but not for that price! :) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Nov 28 19:03:37 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:03:37 -0500 Subject: Interesting emulex manuals. Keep, scan, or junk? Message-ID: <5b65e2fe-6478-16d7-3be2-146f2feda61f@alembic.crystel.com> Have some original Emulex manuals. Need space do people want them or trash? tc0551001 TC05 controller manual. I have Rev C, bitsavers has F pd9951002 I have Rev A Bitsavers site has rev D px9951902 Diagnostic distribution kit I have Rev E and H sc0351001 SC03/B1 technical manual. Bitsavers doesn't have sc0251001 SC02/A RP02/03 manual Rev H Bitsavers doesn't have I'll scan the SC03/B1 and SC02/A manuals, but does anyone want the rest? C From edcross at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 07:32:20 2021 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:32:20 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards Message-ID: Dear list, I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the following boards to complete the CPU: FP11-C slots: M8127 M8128 M8129 Cache slots: M8142 M8143 M8144 M8145 Any help finding these is appreciated. Thanks. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 29 09:24:42 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:24:42 +0000 Subject: Datapoint 2200 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it was fully functional, maybe about 48000/20. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 11:31 AM To: Stan Sieler ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Stan Sieler via cctalk Subject: Re: Datapoint 2200 on ebay I think it's supposed to be 48.00 On November 28, 2021 2:27:20 PM EST, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: >Noticed a Datapoint 2200 on ebay.... >https://www.ebay.com/itm/275043446827 > >They're asking $48,000 > >I want one...but not for that price! :) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 29 09:42:29 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:42:29 -0500 Subject: Datapoint 2200 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e4bd965-0ac8-d4e1-d8ca-d3df96693902@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-11-29 10:24 a.m., dwight via cctalk wrote: > If it was fully functional, maybe about 48000/20. > Dwight > But have you considered, maybe it's an NFT of a photo of a Datapoint. That should make it worth 10 x $48,000 at least. --T > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Zach via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 11:31 AM > To: Stan Sieler ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Stan Sieler via cctalk > Subject: Re: Datapoint 2200 on ebay > > I think it's supposed to be 48.00 > > > > On November 28, 2021 2:27:20 PM EST, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: >> Noticed a Datapoint 2200 on ebay.... >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275043446827 >> >> They're asking $48,000 >> >> I want one...but not for that price! :) > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > From ben at huntsmans.net Mon Nov 29 10:03:23 2021 From: ben at huntsmans.net (Ben Huntsman) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:03:23 +0000 Subject: 3483 + LCD Message-ID: Hi guys- Anyone on here have any experience using an IBM 3483 terminal with an LCD? I have an IBM 15" LCD I am hooking up to it, but parts of the image are below and above the viewable area of the display, and the characters look all garbled or like they're missing some lines. Auto-adjust makes it all visible for a short second, and then it pops back to the way it was. I'd seen at least one other mention of this on the internet, but was wondering if anyone knew of any specific LCD's that are known to work with the 3483. Thanks in advance! -Ben From cube1 at charter.net Mon Nov 29 13:54:13 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:54:13 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/29/2021 7:32 AM, Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > Dear list, I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the > following boards to complete the CPU: > > FP11-C slots: > M8127 > M8128 > M8129 > > Cache slots: > M8142 > M8143 > M8144 > M8145 > > Any help finding these is appreciated. Thanks. > I have M8127, M8128, M8129 (in my basement for > 20 years, condition otherwise unknown). I don't *think* I have an FP11-C in any machine, but I will need to check. Contact me off list for further discussion. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Mon Nov 29 13:55:13 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:55:13 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <488b1ab6-70d4-6565-e470-fc9af15cc83c@charter.net> On 11/29/2021 7:32 AM, Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > Dear list, I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the > following boards to complete the CPU: > > FP11-C slots: > M8127 > M8128 > M8129 > > Cache slots: > M8142 > M8143 > M8144 > M8145 > > Any help finding these is appreciated. Thanks. > I presume you'd also need M8126, or is that one there already? JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Mon Nov 29 14:05:13 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:05:13 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17c140a4-b67f-3b7c-25e6-5f5ddd09e85a@charter.net> On 11/29/2021 7:32 AM, Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > Dear list, I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the > following boards to complete the CPU: > > FP11-C slots: > M8127 > M8128 > M8129 > > Cache slots: > M8142 > M8143 > M8144 > M8145 > > Any help finding these is appreciated. Thanks. > So, it turns out that I *do* have an FP11-C. My PDP-11/45 with the KB11-D processor in it has an FP11-C. So, at the least, I would need to try and figure out if the boards in it right now are the ones that came with it [This is what my notes from 1989/1990 say], or are my spares, and, at the least one of the two M8126 boards is marked "Bad". JRJ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 29 14:18:55 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:18:55 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <17c140a4-b67f-3b7c-25e6-5f5ddd09e85a@charter.net> References: <17c140a4-b67f-3b7c-25e6-5f5ddd09e85a@charter.net> Message-ID: Van: Jay Jaeger via cctalk Verzonden: maandag 29 november 2021 21:05 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards On 11/29/2021 7:32 AM, Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > Dear list, I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the > following boards to complete the CPU: > > FP11-C slots: > M8127 > M8128 > M8129 > > Cache slots: > M8142 > M8143 > M8144 > M8145 > > Any help finding these is appreciated. Thanks. So, it turns out that I *do* have an FP11-C. My PDP-11/45 with the KB11-D processor in it has an FP11-C. So, at the least, I would need to try and figure out if the boards in it right now are the ones that came with it [This is what my notes from 1989/1990 say], or are my spares, and, at the least one of the two M8126 boards is marked "Bad". JRJ I think the FP11 boards are not essential for the 11/70 They only add hardware FP support. However, I think that the cache boards are essential. Not sure the 11/70 will work without them. Henk, PA8PDP From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 15:06:04 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:06:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <17c140a4-b67f-3b7c-25e6-5f5ddd09e85a@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 3:19 PM Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > I think the FP11 boards are not essential for the 11/70 > They only add hardware FP support. Not essential for many uses, but I'm pretty sure UNIX is unhappy without them. If you are going to run RSTS/E or RT-11, should be just fine either way. > However, I think that the cache boards are essential. > Not sure the 11/70 will work without them. Agreed. I think those _are_ mandatory. Cheers, -ethan From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 15:12:27 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:12:27 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <17c140a4-b67f-3b7c-25e6-5f5ddd09e85a@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 1:06 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 3:19 PM Henk Gooijen via cctalk > wrote: > > I think the FP11 boards are not essential for the 11/70 > > They only add hardware FP support. > > Not essential for many uses, but I'm pretty sure UNIX is unhappy > without them. If you are going to run RSTS/E or RT-11, should be just > fine either way. > Depends on the UNIX. Ultrix works fine, and the latest patchlevel of 2.11BSD has floating point simulation that works fine. (I'm running my 11/70 sans floating point hardware at the moment, I'd still like to find a boardset one of these days, though. Floating point emulation is slow!) > > > However, I think that the cache boards are essential. > > Not sure the 11/70 will work without them. > > Agreed. I think those _are_ mandatory. > Yes, the cache is an integral part of the memory system on the 11/70. - Josh > Cheers, > > -ethan > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 29 15:19:27 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:19:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <17c140a4-b67f-3b7c-25e6-5f5ddd09e85a@charter.net> Message-ID: <7C37F274-6EA5-4ED1-92B7-209AB17FDB40@comcast.net> > On Nov 29, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 1:06 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 3:19 PM Henk Gooijen via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I think the FP11 boards are not essential for the 11/70 >>> They only add hardware FP support. >> >> Not essential for many uses, but I'm pretty sure UNIX is unhappy >> without them. If you are going to run RSTS/E or RT-11, should be just >> fine either way. >> > > Depends on the UNIX. Ultrix works fine, and the latest patchlevel of > 2.11BSD has floating point simulation that works fine. > > (I'm running my 11/70 sans floating point hardware at the moment, I'd still > like to find a boardset one of these days, though. Floating point > emulation is slow!) Another option would be a compiler that generates no-FP code. That's faster than emulation. gcc can do that; does 2.x BSD cc have such an option? paul From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Nov 29 17:50:50 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 23:50:50 +0000 Subject: Datapoint 2200 on ebay In-Reply-To: <6e4bd965-0ac8-d4e1-d8ca-d3df96693902@telegraphics.com.au> References: <6e4bd965-0ac8-d4e1-d8ca-d3df96693902@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20211129235050.GA28729@lonesome.com> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 10:42:29AM -0500, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > But have you considered, maybe it's an NFT of a photo of a > Datapoint. That should make it worth 10 x $48,000 at least. Thanks. I needed a laugh today. mcl From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 30 12:06:16 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 13:06:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards Message-ID: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ed Cross > I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the following > boards to complete the CPU: FP11-C >From your mention of the FP11-C, I gather your -11/70 has a KB11-C (later) CPU, not the KB11-B CPU of the earlier PDP-11/70's (prior to 1976 - the difference between the two was whether they took the optional FP11-B or FP11-C FPP). Not that it makes a big difference in your case; the 4 cache cards are the same in both. There used to be a seller on eBait (on the mid-East Coast - Baltimore, IIRC) who was selling -11/70 CPU cards (I bought a whole spare set from him) but alas he seems to have gone away (or sold them all; a quick search, both on eBait, and in my email, didn't turm him up; I can institute a deeper search if need be). >From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11 cards; dunno if Guy Steele still has those clones he was selling. There are definitely some versions of Unix which will run fine on -11/70's without the FP11 (e.g. V6). The system binary is different for the with/without versions, though: in the assembler code which saves the state of one process before switching to another, there is code like: stfps (r1)+ which will probably get an illegal instruction trap in kernel mode on a machine with no FP11, and is therefore conditionally assembled (depending on if the particular machine the system is being built for has an FP11). Perhaps the later BSD versions look for the FP11 on startup, and adjust their behaviour appropriately, but I'm not familiar with them. V6 as distributed contains system binary for an -11/40, which will run on _any_ -11 UNIX will run on, and can be used to build appropriate system binary. (Diversion: I've never found out whether the KB11-B and KB11-C of the -11/70 used/could use the same backplane or not. By examining the prints for the boards of the FP11-B and FP11-C, and seeing on which pins they exchanged signals, and what signals they exchanged with the rest of the CPU, and on which pins, it should be possible to work it out. Ditto for the M8133 ROM and ROM Control of the KB11-B, replaced with the M8123 in the KB11-C.) (Interesting factoid: the M8123 is the only card shared between any variant of the -11/45 and -11/70: both the KB11-C and KB11-D use it. Of course, I think we're still missing a wirelist for the -11/70 backplane, of any variant; and the ECO history. There appears to have been at least one poorly documented upgrade; see here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/MK11_memory_system#CSR_Access for more.) Noel From edcross at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 12:34:53 2021 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 19:34:53 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Very helpful! Thank you On Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 19:06 Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ed Cross > > > I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the following > > boards to complete the CPU: FP11-C > > From your mention of the FP11-C, I gather your -11/70 has a KB11-C (later) > CPU, not the KB11-B CPU of the earlier PDP-11/70's (prior to 1976 - the > difference between the two was whether they took the optional FP11-B or > FP11-C > FPP). > > Not that it makes a big difference in your case; the 4 cache cards are the > same in both. > > There used to be a seller on eBait (on the mid-East Coast - Baltimore, > IIRC) > who was selling -11/70 CPU cards (I bought a whole spare set from him) but > alas he seems to have gone away (or sold them all; a quick search, both on > eBait, and in my email, didn't turm him up; I can institute a deeper search > if need be). > > From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11 > cards; dunno if Guy Steele still has those clones he was selling. > > > There are definitely some versions of Unix which will run fine on -11/70's > without the FP11 (e.g. V6). The system binary is different for the > with/without versions, though: in the assembler code which saves the state > of > one process before switching to another, there is code like: > > stfps (r1)+ > > which will probably get an illegal instruction trap in kernel mode on a > machine with no FP11, and is therefore conditionally assembled (depending > on > if the particular machine the system is being built for has an FP11). > Perhaps > the later BSD versions look for the FP11 on startup, and adjust their > behaviour appropriately, but I'm not familiar with them. > > V6 as distributed contains system binary for an -11/40, which will run on > _any_ -11 UNIX will run on, and can be used to build appropriate system > binary. > > > (Diversion: I've never found out whether the KB11-B and KB11-C of the > -11/70 > used/could use the same backplane or not. By examining the prints for the > boards of the FP11-B and FP11-C, and seeing on which pins they exchanged > signals, and what signals they exchanged with the rest of the CPU, and on > which pins, it should be possible to work it out. Ditto for the M8133 ROM > and > ROM Control of the KB11-B, replaced with the M8123 in the KB11-C.) > > (Interesting factoid: the M8123 is the only card shared between any variant > of the -11/45 and -11/70: both the KB11-C and KB11-D use it. Of course, I > think we're still missing a wirelist for the -11/70 backplane, of any > variant; and the ECO history. There appears to have been at least one > poorly > documented upgrade; see here: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/MK11_memory_system#CSR_Access > > for more.) > > Noel > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 30 12:59:18 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:59:18 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> On 11/30/21 10:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11 > cards; dunno if Guy Steele still has those clones he was selling. I think you meant me.? Guy Steele is from Common LISP fame.? ;-) I do still have KM11 boards and some overlays (I'd have to check to see if I have the appropriate overlays for the 11/70).? I don't unfortunately have any light masks or full kits. -- TTFN - Guy From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Nov 30 14:04:43 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 12:04:43 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> > On 11/30/21 10:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11 > cards... > On Nov 30, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I do still have KM11 boards and some overlays (I'd have to check to see if I have the appropriate overlays for the 11/70). I don't unfortunately have any light masks or full kits. I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban?s site: http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html . I have found the single long board form factor convenient, but they don?t have nice light dividers and overlays like Guy?s. Agreed that at least one of these, as well as a hex extender card, are absolutely essential if you need to debug CPU/MMU/FPU cards (which, given their age, is nearly guaranteed unless you are getting them pre-checked/repaired from another restorer.) ?FritzM. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 30 15:24:26 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:24:26 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 11/30/2021 2:04 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/30/21 10:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11 >> cards... > >> On Nov 30, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> I do still have KM11 boards and some overlays (I'd have to check to see if I have the appropriate overlays for the 11/70). I don't unfortunately have any light masks or full kits. > > I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban?s site: http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html . I have found the single long board form factor convenient, but they don?t have nice light dividers and overlays like Guy?s. > > Agreed that at least one of these, as well as a hex extender card, are absolutely essential if you need to debug CPU/MMU/FPU cards (which, given their age, is nearly guaranteed unless you are getting them pre-checked/repaired from another restorer.) > > ?FritzM. > > Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did you convert to more standard gerbers? (This thread has me motiviated to maybe get my 11/45 running again next year, and verify or fix my FP11-C) [Note, I have also been corresponding with the OP on purchase of my 4 "spare" boards for an FP11-C] JRJ From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Nov 30 15:42:51 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 13:42:51 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> > I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban?s site: http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html > Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did you convert to more standard gerbers? I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it cheaper from other board houses these days. For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these. Also useful for the RK11-C. ?FritzM. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Nov 30 15:52:00 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 21:52:00 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:43 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban?s site: http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html > Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did you convert to more standard gerbers? I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it cheaper from other board houses these days. For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these. Also useful for the RK11-C. ?FritzM. And useful for PDP-11/05, PDP-11/10, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/35, PDP-11/40 ? more? Henk, PA8PDP From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Nov 30 15:53:36 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 21:53:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Van: Henk Gooijen via cctalk Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:52 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: PDP-11/70 Boards Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:43 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban?s site: http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html > Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did you convert to more standard gerbers? I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it cheaper from other board houses these days. For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these. Also useful for the RK11-C. ?FritzM. And useful for PDP-11/05, PDP-11/10, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/35, PDP-11/40 ? more? Henk, PA8PDP I also seem to remember the RX01 (and RX02?) From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Nov 30 15:57:38 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 13:57:38 -0800 Subject: Looking for tips debugging DEC TC01 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 23, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I picked up a TC01 in trade (for a TC08) a couple of weeks back and this > past weekend I got it hooked up and powered up with my PDP-8/I + TU55 > transport. I've been debugging it and have solved a couple of issues but > the current one has me stumped and I'm looking for advice, hoping I > overlooked something obvious... Any updates here, Josh? I?m not familiar enough with 8?s or their peripherals to offer any relevant suggestions, but I?m curious to hear what you find and how you crack it! ?FritzM. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 16:14:34 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:14:34 -0800 Subject: Looking for tips debugging DEC TC01 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 1:57 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Nov 23, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I picked up a TC01 in trade (for a TC08) a couple of weeks back and this > > past weekend I got it hooked up and powered up with my PDP-8/I + TU55 > > transport. I've been debugging it and have solved a couple of issues but > > the current one has me stumped and I'm looking for advice, hoping I > > overlooked something obvious... > > Any updates here, Josh? I?m not familiar enough with 8?s or their > peripherals to offer any relevant suggestions, but I?m curious to hear what > you find and how you crack it! > After poking at it awhile, a friend of mine pointed out that the W1 flip flop is set up so it will only toggle once, after the first "1" bit comes in from W2. This is actually pointed out in the TC01 maintenance manual but I had managed to overlook it. I'm still not entirely sure why it behaves this way (I guess so it only gates mark blocks after the first real data goes through the WINDOW register?) but it's good to know it's working properly. Tracing further through the circuitry reveals that the first SEARCH operation executed by the "Search Find All Blocks" diagnostic isn't executing properly -- it sets the GO bit momentarily and all the command bits seem to be making it to the controller, but before the drive begins forward movement "GO" goes low and after that nothing happens; the diagnostic halts after waiting for an interrupt for about 30 seconds. Regular MOVE operations appear to work fine. I've got a ton of signals to dig through so I'm not sure what's going on yet. Think I may need to get the Logic Analyzer out for this one. - Josh > > ?FritzM. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 30 17:56:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:56:45 -0800 Subject: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes Message-ID: <3fdf0a8f-4e8f-4987-a64f-a3f00677f2d9@sydex.com> Hey list, I received a note today from a fellow in London who has 2 9-track tapes that he'd like read. Brands are CDC and BASF, so media shedding should not be a problem. Dates are '92 and '93, so likely 1600 or 6259. The tape seal on one (the other has no seal) is IBM-style, which may be the system that produced the tapes. Any takers? Let me know if so, I'll put you in contact and you can take things from there. All the best, --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 30 18:17:03 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 18:17:03 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <72a2fcad-bc3c-15fc-122c-b27af665a536@charter.net> On 11/30/2021 3:52 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk > Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:43 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > >> I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban?s site: http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html > >> Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did you convert to more standard gerbers? > > I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it cheaper from other board houses these days. For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these. Also useful for the RK11-C. > > ?FritzM. > > And useful for PDP-11/05, PDP-11/10, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/35, PDP-11/40 ? more? > Henk, PA8PDP > The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to create files to order boards from them - or can it now export ordinary gerbers? (Otherwise, to go with another fab. I presumably would re-enter the schematic, and re-route it - granted not all *that* hard, but still a day's work. JRJ From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 30 18:31:34 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 19:31:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <72a2fcad-bc3c-15fc-122c-b27af665a536@charter.net> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> <72a2fcad-bc3c-15fc-122c-b27af665a536@charter.net> Message-ID: <3BEFFBB4-7028-4991-A594-E40CEF83B349@comcast.net> > On Nov 30, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > ... > The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to create files to order boards from them - or can it now export ordinary gerbers? (Otherwise, to go with another fab. I presumably would re-enter the schematic, and re-route it - granted not all *that* hard, but still a day's work. You're right, they say so in the FAQ. And it is the reason I don't use them. At one point I used PCB Pool (Beta layout) because they could take Eagle files directly. But sending boards across the ocean isn't so economical. And Eagle became less and less attractive over time. My current answer is KiCAD which is open source and somewhat more powerful than Eagle (without the hassles). Both do Gerbers, but there are also fabs that take the CAD files directly. OSHPark is the one I've used for my most recent 3 projects, they do nice work. The color is odd, but what the heck, it still works. paul From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Nov 30 18:48:38 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 16:48:38 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <3BEFFBB4-7028-4991-A594-E40CEF83B349@comcast.net> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> <72a2fcad-bc3c-15fc-122c-b27af665a536@charter.net> <3BEFFBB4-7028-4991-A594-E40CEF83B349@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 30, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to create files to order boards from them > On Nov 30, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > You're right, they say so in the FAQ. And it is the reason I don't use them. Oh, I hadn?t realized they have the whole lock-in thing going; that?s kind of obnoxious! > My current answer is KiCAD which is open source and somewhat more powerful than Eagle (without the hassles). KiCAD is pretty nice these days. A friend also recently introduced me to jlpcb and pcbway, and the prices and turnaround times from both of these board houses, even for very small runs, are amazing! jlpcb will also do assembly of many stocked surface mount parts at very reasonable prices. ?FritzM. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 30 20:39:48 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 20:39:48 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <3BEFFBB4-7028-4991-A594-E40CEF83B349@comcast.net> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> <72a2fcad-bc3c-15fc-122c-b27af665a536@charter.net> <3BEFFBB4-7028-4991-A594-E40CEF83B349@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8bde7f43-7899-5697-1399-fbb69a81a1b9@charter.net> On 11/30/2021 6:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Nov 30, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to create files to order boards from them - or can it now export ordinary gerbers? (Otherwise, to go with another fab. I presumably would re-enter the schematic, and re-route it - granted not all *that* hard, but still a day's work. > > You're right, they say so in the FAQ. And it is the reason I don't use them. > > At one point I used PCB Pool (Beta layout) because they could take Eagle files directly. But sending boards across the ocean isn't so economical. And Eagle became less and less attractive over time. > > My current answer is KiCAD which is open source and somewhat more powerful than Eagle (without the hassles). Both do Gerbers, but there are also fabs that take the CAD files directly. OSHPark is the one I've used for my most recent 3 projects, they do nice work. The color is odd, but what the heck, it still works. > > paul > I have used KiCAD for several projects. I like it, though the developers don't always seem to allow for the pain the cause when they make version changes that requires a lot of footprint re-hunting. ;) JRJ