From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 1 07:58:28 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 14:58:28 +0200 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello again. Took pictures of the entire RF08/RS08 drawing in daylight: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-CD1D6Aok_OSpXzk0GaJhjwad0HreDhc The paper size is rather big. I think 22 x 17 inch. I don?t have access to such a big scanner unfortunately. Companies that do scanning charge around two or three dollar per page here in Sweden. At least it is what I found when checking quickly. Unless someone has access to a bigger scanner in the Stockholm area i think this is the best I can do for now. When looking at the schematics it quite interesting to see that DEC changed logic symbols from what they used in the PDP-8 and PDP-9 schematics while still using the older transistor modules rather than TTL in the RF08/RS08. The schematics are dated around 1970. /Mattis fredag 30 april 2021 skrev Josh Dersch : > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 2:24 PM Mattis Lind wrote: > >> I did another check of the drawings and found a module list. >> >> Initially I was looking for something more graphic then I found this: >> >> https://imgur.com/a/hzmhwQ4 >> >> Hope it helps. >> >> /Mattis >> > > Thanks so much, both for the pictures of your RF/RS08 and of the > engineering drawings, those will be extremely helpful. I've never seen > those drawings before, the module list you have is definitely not in the > ones available on Bitsavers. > > - Josh > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat May 1 09:00:24 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 15:00:24 +0100 Subject: Bounces Message-ID: <642132F0-9DAC-43B1-9A64-A22BE746E847@gmail.com> Hi folks, Did anyone else get an email about excessive bounces today? I?ve not changed anything hosting wise forever so this is a bit weird. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Sat May 1 09:20:00 2021 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 14:20:00 +0000 Subject: Bounces In-Reply-To: <642132F0-9DAC-43B1-9A64-A22BE746E847@gmail.com> References: <642132F0-9DAC-43B1-9A64-A22BE746E847@gmail.com> Message-ID: I got it too. Thought it was strange but I do occasionally receive responses to emails where I never received the original. Ray Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham via cctalk Sent: Saturday, May 1, 2021 10:00:24 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Bounces Hi folks, Did anyone else get an email about excessive bounces today? I?ve not changed anything hosting wise forever so this is a bit weird. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat May 1 09:53:02 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 10:53:02 -0400 Subject: Bounces In-Reply-To: References: <642132F0-9DAC-43B1-9A64-A22BE746E847@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's the way the mail server operates to allow for replies to go to the group and the person IIRC. It's good because by following the directions on the email the mailing list is kept clean of only active members. May be a problem for those who don't ever post or read, but want to remain on the list. Nothing is ever win win, ya know? b On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 10:20 AM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I got it too. Thought it was strange but I do occasionally receive > responses to emails where I never received the original. > > Ray > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham > via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, May 1, 2021 10:00:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Bounces > > Hi folks, > > Did anyone else get an email about excessive bounces today? I?ve not > changed anything hosting wise forever so this is a bit weird. > > Cheers, > > -- > Adrian Graham > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > > > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat May 1 10:01:51 2021 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 17:01:51 +0200 Subject: Bounces In-Reply-To: <642132F0-9DAC-43B1-9A64-A22BE746E847@gmail.com> References: <642132F0-9DAC-43B1-9A64-A22BE746E847@gmail.com> Message-ID: <72e2acac-7985-52d7-aae5-42953c071edb@ljw.me.uk> On 1/05/21 4:00 pm, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > Did anyone else get an email about excessive bounces today? I?ve not changed anything hosting wise forever so this is a bit weird. > > Cheers, There was a bounce from gmail - something about some of the messages it didn't like. If you got this one then it's not a general dislike of cctalk or classiccmp.org which is the problem. All I can suggest is that those of you with gmail addresses have a quick look at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2021-May/date.html to see what you have missed - it seemed to be the DEC RF08/RS08 message from Mattis that upset gmail. LJW -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat May 1 10:18:19 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 16:18:19 +0100 Subject: Bounces In-Reply-To: <72e2acac-7985-52d7-aae5-42953c071edb@ljw.me.uk> References: <642132F0-9DAC-43B1-9A64-A22BE746E847@gmail.com> <72e2acac-7985-52d7-aae5-42953c071edb@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 4:02 PM Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/05/21 4:00 pm, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > Did anyone else get an email about excessive bounces today? I?ve not changed anything hosting wise forever so this is a bit weird. Yes I got it too, and quickly re-enabled mail from the list. Looks like gmail is up to its old tricks... -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun May 2 14:05:31 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 15:05:31 -0400 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info Message-ID: I sent Josh pictures of the complete RF08/RS08 that John Wilson donated to the RICM. I will send detailed pictures of the RS08<->RF08 cables next week. -- Michael Thompson From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 2 15:25:34 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 13:25:34 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <12FC0704-E60C-41BE-B694-D5E6E264A971@fritzm.org> References: <645E6E0C-0735-4212-AB5E-FAC23960F727@fritzm.org> <12FC0704-E60C-41BE-B694-D5E6E264A971@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 11:26 PM Fritz Mueller wrote: > > > On Apr 24, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > If you have notes on re-creating the harness, let me know. > > Hi Josh, > > A few pointers -- I think I left some of these in a comment on one of your > fb posts, but will repeat here in case others may find it useful: > > * The wire list in the commonly available Jun74 11/45 engineering drawing > set is actually for the power harness, and not for the backplane. It > includes wire run lengths in inches, which is quite handy. I believe it is > for the newer harness, but there is much overlap. > > * The old and new harnesses are also schematically illustrated on four > pages of the drawing set marked "power systems configuration". These > drawings are complete and quite good. > > * Drawings for the power distribution board for the older wiring style > (vertical at the back of the cabinet) are hidden in the Jun74 11/*40* > engineering drawings (upper right of sheet BA11-F0). > > * What I did was use the wire list lengths as a guide, cutting each run to > length plus a little extra. I then started with the H742s on the bench, at > the regulator and power monitor mate-n-loks. Then put the H742s in the > rack with the CPU cabinet, and worked my up and over the and then down > along the along the backplane toward the console, bundling and trimming to > length as I went. > > * A good ratchet lock crimp tool makes a big difference here. You want > one with a die that can handle 14 AWG, and on which will crimp both the > electrical and strain-relief parts of the pins in one go. > > * Sticking with the original wire color code also makes it a lot easier > not to get lost and later to double check and troubleshoot your work. I > used MTW ("Machine Tool Wire"), which is available from wirebarn.com at > 14 and 18 AWG in most of the necessary colors and in 25 and 100 foot > lengths (I think the 18 AWG purple I had to find separately on eBay, but I > have lots of leftover of that and will gladly send you some.) > > * I skipped wiring for most of the regulators in the bottom H742 (I have > regulator F there, but none of H, J, K, or L are populated) because I don't > have any core or fastbus memory in my system. I figure I can add this > later if I ever do find myself with either of these. > > Good luck! > Thanks! I may get started on that fairly soon, we'll see how ambitious I'm feeling... Sorry for the delay, but finally, here's a pile of pictures of the +5V ECO on the backplane. Let me know if you need more detail on something: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMpMAqf_6YvmsEEU-T0A?e=Y6WBfV - Josh > --FritzM. > > From cube1 at charter.net Sun May 2 15:38:33 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 15:38:33 -0500 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository Message-ID: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> The last 12 months I have been pretty busy working on my 1410 in FPGA project, and there is now more to share, though I have not done much actual work since February - been too busy playing with other "toys". 8D First, I finished working through all of the IBM 1410 and IBM 1415 Automated Logic Diagrams - generating VHDL and testing the results with test benches. [Note that this includes the built-in 1401 compatibility mode, activated at the flip of a switch.] That took most of 2020. So, the CPU generation in VHDL is now more or less complete, and I added a hand coded memory module for memory, as core is kind of hard to find on an FPGA development board. ;) I am currently using a Digilent Nexys 4, but I think it might have even fit on a Nexys 2 - there is plenty of room to spare, and there isn't anything in the VHDL aside from, maybe, the memory implementation (though even that is pretty generic VHDL). With this the CPU runs, at the very least, Unconditional branch (Jump), Halt, NOP and Set Word Mark instructions seemingly correctly - I haven't tried any others. Somewhat surprisingly, aside from issues with the hand coded VHDL in triggers and the need to communicate pins tied to logic one or zero, the auto-generated VHDL works untouched. I have updated the github repository for the C# database application that generates the VHDL from time to time (and which includes the complete database) at http://github.com/cube1us/IBM1410SMS There is now a *new* repository, http://github.com/cube1us/IBM1410FPGA which holds the generated VHDL, some hand coded VHDL modules for certain SMS cards (typically for triggers, for example), the console and test benches I used along the way, and VHDL "Integration Tests" which are designed to be loaded onto the board - the current one being IntegrationTest3. There will be, eventually, a third repository which will contain the C# code that "hosts" the IBM 1410 console and peripherals, communicating with the FPGA over a high speed serial over USB connection. I figured out that this should allow me to emulate peripherals without having to resort to sending data over Ethernet, SPI, I2C or the like. I have just started that, so it really isn't at a point that there is much to share. Once I have a console working (which will require a re-do of the console VHDL implementation, which right now communicates in ASCII, but should probably be using BCD), I should be able to pre-load into memory some of the CPU diagnostics, by loading a diagnostic routine into either my 1410 simulator (http://github.com/cube1us/1410), or Richard Cornwell's emulator in SimH and then taking a snapshot of "core" to pre-load into the FPGA. At that point I expect I will be able to test the CPU pretty thoroughly. I hope and expect that will happen this year sometime. Unfortunately, I do not have the ALDs (Automated Logic Diagrams) for the IBM 1414 I/O Synchronizers, but I do have the Instruction Logic Diagrams which should allow me to code VHDL to emulate card, tape and maybe eventually even disk functions, so those might take a while. If anyone cares.... ;) JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Sun May 2 15:38:33 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 15:38:33 -0500 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository Message-ID: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> The last 12 months I have been pretty busy working on my 1410 in FPGA project, and there is now more to share, though I have not done much actual work since February - been too busy playing with other "toys". 8D First, I finished working through all of the IBM 1410 and IBM 1415 Automated Logic Diagrams - generating VHDL and testing the results with test benches. [Note that this includes the built-in 1401 compatibility mode, activated at the flip of a switch.] That took most of 2020. So, the CPU generation in VHDL is now more or less complete, and I added a hand coded memory module for memory, as core is kind of hard to find on an FPGA development board. ;) I am currently using a Digilent Nexys 4, but I think it might have even fit on a Nexys 2 - there is plenty of room to spare, and there isn't anything in the VHDL aside from, maybe, the memory implementation (though even that is pretty generic VHDL). With this the CPU runs, at the very least, Unconditional branch (Jump), Halt, NOP and Set Word Mark instructions seemingly correctly - I haven't tried any others. Somewhat surprisingly, aside from issues with the hand coded VHDL in triggers and the need to communicate pins tied to logic one or zero, the auto-generated VHDL works untouched. I have updated the github repository for the C# database application that generates the VHDL from time to time (and which includes the complete database) at http://github.com/cube1us/IBM1410SMS There is now a *new* repository, http://github.com/cube1us/IBM1410FPGA which holds the generated VHDL, some hand coded VHDL modules for certain SMS cards (typically for triggers, for example), the console and test benches I used along the way, and VHDL "Integration Tests" which are designed to be loaded onto the board - the current one being IntegrationTest3. There will be, eventually, a third repository which will contain the C# code that "hosts" the IBM 1410 console and peripherals, communicating with the FPGA over a high speed serial over USB connection. I figured out that this should allow me to emulate peripherals without having to resort to sending data over Ethernet, SPI, I2C or the like. I have just started that, so it really isn't at a point that there is much to share. Once I have a console working (which will require a re-do of the console VHDL implementation, which right now communicates in ASCII, but should probably be using BCD), I should be able to pre-load into memory some of the CPU diagnostics, by loading a diagnostic routine into either my 1410 simulator (http://github.com/cube1us/1410), or Richard Cornwell's emulator in SimH and then taking a snapshot of "core" to pre-load into the FPGA. At that point I expect I will be able to test the CPU pretty thoroughly. I hope and expect that will happen this year sometime. Unfortunately, I do not have the ALDs (Automated Logic Diagrams) for the IBM 1414 I/O Synchronizers, but I do have the Instruction Logic Diagrams which should allow me to code VHDL to emulate card, tape and maybe eventually even disk functions, so those might take a while. If anyone cares.... ;) JRJ From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun May 2 16:28:31 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 14:28:31 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: References: <645E6E0C-0735-4212-AB5E-FAC23960F727@fritzm.org> <12FC0704-E60C-41BE-B694-D5E6E264A971@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <38FA4B52-D2F5-45DD-B208-34972B932A3D@fritzm.org> > On May 2, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Sorry for the delay, but finally, here's a pile of pictures of the +5V ECO on the backplane. Let me know if you need more detail on something: > > https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMpMAqf_6YvmsEEU-T0A?e=Y6WBfV Oh, this is great, thanks! It's very interesting to see how this was implemented. I think I will need empty my backplane soon in order to do some lower fan maintenance, so I will probably pull my backplane and implement this at that time. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun May 2 16:29:55 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 14:29:55 -0700 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> References: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> Message-ID: <016F80FC-E0D0-4758-A16C-7AD10107ADB9@fritzm.org> Wow, what a project -- super cool, Jay! From cube1 at charter.net Sun May 2 16:42:01 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 16:42:01 -0500 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: <016F80FC-E0D0-4758-A16C-7AD10107ADB9@fritzm.org> References: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> <016F80FC-E0D0-4758-A16C-7AD10107ADB9@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <45f37008-ccad-4a48-1515-d47bcbdfc4c8@charter.net> On 5/2/2021 4:29 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Wow, what a project -- super cool, Jay! > You can read more about my travails at https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/ibm-1410-fpga-implementation/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 2 17:51:05 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 15:51:05 -0700 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> References: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> Message-ID: That's a very ambitious project! I commend you for your determination and thoroughness. I am a bit curious, however. How does this implementation (other than perhaps speed) compare with a software emulation done on a modern CPU? --Chuck From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun May 2 20:06:29 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 21:06:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for the person I sold an eMachines eOne to at the VCF Swap Meet on April 24 Message-ID: *I found more related goodies you can have for the shipping. You can reply direct to me or on this thread.* From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 2 20:51:19 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 21:51:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for the person I sold an eMachines eOne to at the VCF Swap Meet on April 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an e machines keyboard in the free pile at kennett classic should anyine need one On Sun, May 2, 2021, 9:06 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > *I found more related goodies you can have for the shipping. You can reply > direct to me or on this thread.* > From drb at msu.edu Sun May 2 21:52:49 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 02 May 2021 22:52:49 -0400 Subject: Cipher C995 manuals Message-ID: <20210503025249.DE6B5384415@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I have a recalcitrant Cipher C995 9track drive. Does anyone have manuals for this thing? It seems to be enough different from the M990 to matter. Thanks, De From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon May 3 02:31:13 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 00:31:13 -0700 Subject: Cipher C995 manuals In-Reply-To: <20210503025249.DE6B5384415@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210503025249.DE6B5384415@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: I have the M990, not sure if I have the manuals.? My stuff is in storage if I do, the rest to be scanned, sorry. On 5/2/2021 7:52 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I have a recalcitrant Cipher C995 9track drive. Does anyone have > manuals for this thing? It seems to be enough different from the M990 > to matter. > > Thanks, > > De > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 3 05:19:30 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 11:19:30 +0100 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? Message-ID: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> I have gone back to trying to fix my DEC Professional 350. I have a printset for the machine now. I think the CPU is being constantly reset. Is there any documentation anywhere on the F11 chipset? Bitsavers only seems to have the later J11. Thanks Rob From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon May 3 05:45:27 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 18:45:27 +0800 Subject: Sprague 2X.1-1000 filter capacitors and 854-B power control assembly Message-ID: Unfortunately once again I am having trouble with Sprague 2X.1-1000 filter capacitors. The two filter caps on a Lab-8/e rack's 854-B power control assembly appear to occasionally leak to ground more than the 30 mA tolerated by my RCD. Mostly it trips the RCD when I power off the system, but sometimes it even trips the RCD with the system powered off. One of the two filter caps is permanently connected across mains power and earth coming from the cable (i.e. it is before the power switch). The exact same filter caps were also used inside the LAB-8/e computer?s power supply. Early on I replaced these with a small PCB with a bunch of male spade connectors and two Y class safety caps. The PCB was designed to replace two of the Sprague filter caps in the side-by-side configuration used inside the LAB-8/e?s power supply where it is also hidden from view. The PCB was designed by Malcolm Macleod in Melbourne/Australia who hit the same problem. I got the PCB manufactured in China from his design. The 854-B power control assembly has the two Sprague filter caps sitting on either end of the assembly ? far from each other. Also the can of the capacitors is exposed at the back and clearly visible so even a newly designed PCB with a single set of safety caps wouldn?t look great and also wouldn?t be stable because there are only two mounting holes. I cannot think of a neat solution to resolve this. I could try to find an electrician willing to wire me a non-RCD protected socket into my study, but I can?t quite warm to that idea. The RCD is an important safety feature. By law now all houses are required to have their AC wiring protected by 30 mA RCD circuit breakers so I likely would have to do this myself. The other option would be to make or buy two terminal blocks with male spade connectors and connect the female spade connectors to those rather than the Sprague connectors. I could then also wire in the 2 Y class safety caps or even forego the filtering. It would mean drilling new holes into the power control assembly. Chuck(G) in the vcfed DEC forum suggested pulling apart the old "bathtub" capacitors and replacing their guts with modern safety caps. The caps contain toxic and carcinogenic PCBs so I am less than enthusiastic about that idea. The capacitor's metal can is soldered together so trying to desolder it would heat the mineral oil containing the PCBs which would make them even more harmful. There is no point in trying to hunt for ?new? Sprague 2X.1-1000 because they would all be ancient and have the same leakage problem. Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions? Best regards Tom Hunter From matt at 9track.net Mon May 3 07:13:05 2021 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 13:13:05 +0100 Subject: Sprague 2X.1-1000 filter capacitors and 854-B power control assembly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28eddae7-57aa-0094-0b6b-cdc4e82942e1@9track.net> On 03/05/2021 11:45, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > There is no point in trying to hunt for ?new? Sprague 2X.1-1000 because > they would all be ancient and have the same leakage problem. > > Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions? > You could try replacing it with a modern line filter assembly. Not sure where you are located but here's a UK example: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/passive-components/passive-filters/power-line-filters/?sra=p That would require some modifications to the case/wiring though. Regards, Matt From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon May 3 07:15:54 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 20:15:54 +0800 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: References: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> Message-ID: I think this implementation would give definitive answers to some of the obscure corner cases which may not be well documented and thus may not be correctly emulated in software. So even if never implemented on an actual FPGA this is very valuable. My Desktop CYBER emulator was implemented in C using the information found in the CDC hardware manuals. There was one weird CYBER/6000 series console channel problem which we have been able to resolve using a similar approach. Paul Koning created a VHDL implementation of a CDC 6400 using hand written VHDL code for each cordwood module type and "wired" them together by processing the OCRed wire lists generating more VHDL code. He used GHDL to execute the VHDL and run some short test code which provided the definitive answer to the problem. The CDC manuals did not mention this specific corner case. Congratulations to Jay for this cool project. Best regards Tom Hunter On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 6:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > That's a very ambitious project! I commend you for your determination > and thoroughness. > > I am a bit curious, however. How does this implementation (other than > perhaps speed) compare with a software emulation done on a modern CPU? > > --Chuck > From cube1 at charter.net Mon May 3 07:30:18 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 07:30:18 -0500 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: References: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> Message-ID: <22fb8d23-65a0-e28f-f558-622e0ebfb629@charter.net> The idea is to get timing accuracy - down to the logic block level. If I run the system "oscillator" (which is really a clock divider on the FPGA development board clock) at the same speed as the original, then it should run at pretty much the same speed as the original - much MUCH slower than it would be using software emulation on a modern machine. JRJ On 5/2/2021 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > That's a very ambitious project! I commend you for your determination > and thoroughness. > > I am a bit curious, however. How does this implementation (other than > perhaps speed) compare with a software emulation done on a modern CPU? > > --Chuck > From cube1 at charter.net Mon May 3 07:32:44 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 07:32:44 -0500 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: References: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752@charter.net> Message-ID: <897d4885-e188-a8ba-9ecc-e4d61bd453ac@charter.net> On 5/3/2021 7:15 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I think this implementation would give definitive answers to some of the > obscure corner cases which may not be well documented and thus may not be > correctly emulated in software. So even if never implemented on an actual > FPGA this is very valuable. Yes, that would be a possible "productive" use. For example, I have seen questions from time to time about what a given 1401 configuration would actually do in certain situations. > > My Desktop CYBER emulator was implemented in C using the information found > in the CDC hardware manuals. There was one weird CYBER/6000 series console > channel problem which we have been able to resolve using a similar > approach. Paul Koning created a VHDL implementation of a CDC 6400 using > hand written VHDL code for each cordwood module type and "wired" them > together by processing the OCRed wire lists generating more VHDL code. He > used GHDL to execute the VHDL and run some short test code which provided > the definitive answer to the problem. The CDC manuals did not mention this > specific corner case. Cool. > > Congratulations to Jay for this cool project. Thanks. > > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 6:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > >> That's a very ambitious project! I commend you for your determination >> and thoroughness. >> >> I am a bit curious, however. How does this implementation (other than >> perhaps speed) compare with a software emulation done on a modern CPU? >> >> --Chuck >> From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon May 3 07:34:02 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 20:34:02 +0800 Subject: Sprague 2X.1-1000 filter capacitors and 854-B power control assembly In-Reply-To: <28eddae7-57aa-0094-0b6b-cdc4e82942e1@9track.net> References: <28eddae7-57aa-0094-0b6b-cdc4e82942e1@9track.net> Message-ID: Thanks Matt. The actual equivalent filtering can easily be achieved by two small Y-class AC caps, but the 8 male spade connectors on the original Sprague cap are also used as a wiring hub. My problem is more of a cosmetic and reversibility nature. I am trying to find something which doesn't require drilling new holes into the power control assembly and doesn't look horrible when you open the rear door of the Lab-8/e. Chuck's suggestion of gutting the old Sprague capacitor would be ideal except for the PCB toxicity issue (maybe I am just too paranoid with PCBs). The "bathtub" can is soldered and partially crimped together. Heating the solder joint would get the mineral oil with the PCB in it very hot so I would expect toxic fumes once the can opens. The next problem would be what to do with the oil after I successfully opened it and how to clean everything so that no toxic residue is left. Best regards Tom Hunter On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 8:13 PM Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > On 03/05/2021 11:45, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > There is no point in trying to hunt for ?new? Sprague 2X.1-1000 because > > they would all be ancient and have the same leakage problem. > > > > Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions? > > > You could try replacing it with a modern line filter assembly. Not sure > where you are located but here's a UK example: > > > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/passive-components/passive-filters/power-line-filters/?sra=p > > That would require some modifications to the case/wiring though. > > Regards, > > Matt > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon May 3 10:35:32 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 03 May 2021 10:35:32 -0500 Subject: Cipher C995 manuals In-Reply-To: <20210503025249.DE6B5384415@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210503025249.DE6B5384415@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <60901844.6000708@pico-systems.com> On 05/02/2021 09:52 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I have a recalcitrant Cipher C995 9track drive. Does anyone have > manuals for this thing? It seems to be enough different from the M990 > to matter. > > We had one for a while. My recollection is the read channel chips failed quite often. I used to have docs, but got rid of them a LONG time ago. Jon From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 3 11:16:08 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 09:16:08 -0700 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> On May 3, 2021, at 3:19 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have gone back to trying to fix my DEC Professional 350. I have a printset > for the machine now. I think the CPU is being constantly reset. > > Is there any documentation anywhere on the F11 chipset? Bitsavers only seems > to have the later J11. Is the Sunsite archive still online? I seem to recall there being some documentation there. Zane From bdweb at mindspring.com Mon May 3 12:29:53 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 13:29:53 -0400 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I recently brought a PC350 back from the dead. A good source of documentation for the F-11 is that for the 11/23 and 11/24 (e.g., http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/Digital_Microcomputer_Processor_Handbook_1979_80.pdf chapter 3 "LSI-11/23 Processor" or http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/EK-11024-TM-001_PDP11_24_System_Technical_Manual_Jun81.pdf) The first thing I'd do is to attach a "console terminal" cable (a cable attached to the printer port with pin 9 pulled to ground -- pin 8).? DEC makes such a cable called BCC08 but I just made one myself. Then use a terminal program at 4800 to send a break and see if you get the ODT prompt. In my case I didn't get such a response.? It turned out that the leaky battery had destroyed the "EPCI" at E155 (the async serial chip for the printer/console terminal port).? I swapped the EPCI at E154 (the keyboard async serial chip) and I was able to at least talk to the ODT.? I then bought a replacement EPCI on eBay and I was on my way. Good luck! --Bjoren On 5/3/2021 12:16 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On May 3, 2021, at 3:19 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> I have gone back to trying to fix my DEC Professional 350. I have a printset >> for the machine now. I think the CPU is being constantly reset. >> >> Is there any documentation anywhere on the F11 chipset? Bitsavers only seems >> to have the later J11. > Is the Sunsite archive still online? I seem to recall there being some documentation there. > > Zane > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 3 13:23:44 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 19:23:44 +0100 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having trouble working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 TIME OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It would help to have a working machine to compare it to! Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bjoren Davis via > cctalk > Sent: 03 May 2021 18:30 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Documentation for F11 Chipset? > > I recently brought a PC350 back from the dead. > > A good source of documentation for the F-11 is that for the 11/23 and > 11/24 (e.g., > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/Digital_Microcomputer_Processor_Hand > book_1979_80.pdf > chapter 3 "LSI-11/23 Processor" or > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/EK-11024-TM- > 001_PDP11_24_System_Technical_Manual_Jun81.pdf) Thanks for the tips, I will take a look. > > The first thing I'd do is to attach a "console terminal" cable (a cable attached > to the printer port with pin 9 pulled to ground -- pin 8). DEC makes such a > cable called BCC08 but I just made one myself. > Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having trouble working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 TIME OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It would help to have a working machine to compare it to! Regards Rob > Then use a terminal program at 4800 to send a break and see if you get the > ODT prompt. > > In my case I didn't get such a response. It turned out that the leaky battery > had destroyed the "EPCI" at E155 (the async serial chip for the > printer/console terminal port). I swapped the EPCI at E154 (the keyboard > async serial chip) and I was able to at least talk to the ODT. I then bought a > replacement EPCI on eBay and I was on my way. > > Good luck! > > --Bjoren > > > On 5/3/2021 12:16 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On May 3, 2021, at 3:19 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > >> I have gone back to trying to fix my DEC Professional 350. I have a > >> printset for the machine now. I think the CPU is being constantly reset. > >> > >> Is there any documentation anywhere on the F11 chipset? Bitsavers > >> only seems to have the later J11. > > Is the Sunsite archive still online? I seem to recall there being some > documentation there. > > > > Zane > > > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 3 13:29:16 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 14:29:16 -0400 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> > On May 3, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having trouble working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 TIME OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It would help to have a working machine to compare it to! > > Regards > > Rob That sounds like it's trying to access the boot ROM and not getting an answer. paul From erik at baigar.de Mon May 3 13:27:20 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (Dr. Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 20:27:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 920M - an European contemprary of the Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: Dear colleagues in vintage computing ;-) In the last years there has been substantial interest in the Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC). So maybe someone might be interested what happened outside of the United States in the 1960ties: Over the last few years I restored a 920M computer which was (among others) used as the guidance computer in the Europa rocket. This was the ancestor of the European Ariane sapce launcher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Launcher_Development_Organisation Although not well known, this machine is a contemporary of the AGC, it also uses integrated, SMD mounted circuits and is realized in DTL techology (Diode Transistor Technology). Its word width is 18bit, 8k of core store where standard within a show-box sized chassis. 2us and later down to 1us instruction time where stadnard. In contrast to the AGC, this machine was a member of a whole series of airborne computers - some of which are still in use TODAY (2021). After core and the DTL chips became obsolete, this architecture even was re-implemented by BAE systems using the AMD29XX chipset in the same chassis as drop-in replacement. The 920M never had core rope memory, and for rocket guidance 8k have been enough although adding a 2nd box extending the core was possible. Tte architecture is able to support up to 256k words of 18 bit. Of course, the instruction set is very archaic - no carry flag, no stack but it served its purpose with 18 bit choosen as the perfect word length to give reasonable resolution without need for double-word calculation in most applications; http://www.programmer-electronic-control.de/Elliott920FactsCard.pdf If this triggered some interest, you may watch my recently released video on the 920M (covers applications, internals and some software is shown running)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-gF5g0nnoE ...or visit my project page regarding the work of restoring three different members of this computer family to working condition: http://www.programmer-electronic-control.de/index.html Happy computing to all of you, best wishes, Erik. P.S. Just wanted to point out, that also in Europe there have been relevant developments regarding spaceborne computing in parallel to the Apollo programme! In no ways I want to diminish the achievemets of the Apollo development team... ''~`` ( o o ) +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.--------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | erik at baigar.de .oooO Vintage Computer | | www.baigar.de ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist | +---------------------------\ (----( )----------------------------+ \_) ) / (_/ Dr. Erik Baigar Scientific Lead Spectroscopy Systems Technologie Team Spectroscopy THORLABS GmbH M?nchner Weg 1 85232 Bergkirchen Germany Tel.: +49 (0) 8131 5956-40147 Fax.: ?+49 (0) 8131 5956-99 Mail: ?EBaigar at thorlabs.com Web: ?www.thorlabs.com General Manager: Dr. Bruno Gross HRB No: 85345, M?nchen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 3 14:36:45 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 20:36:45 +0100 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01ae01d74053$a6d6fed0$f484fc70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 03 May 2021 19:29 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt ; > cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Documentation for F11 Chipset? > > > > > On May 3, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any > kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having trouble > working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 TIME > OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It would help > to have a working machine to compare it to! > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > That sounds like it's trying to access the boot ROM and not getting an answer. Hmm... interesting. I can check to see if anything is trying to access the ROMs. > > paul From bdweb at mindspring.com Mon May 3 14:44:59 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 15:44:59 -0400 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8e712614-a2f4-aba1-b986-48b81fd9bc25@mindspring.com> Hello Paul and Rob, The next thing I did was to hook up a logic analyzer to the address lines on the ROM.? This told me how far I got with the boot sequence before it restarted. I disassembled the ROM and have some portions of it semi-decoded so that may be helpful.? If you like I can send you the text file I have. Another helpful thing for me was to take the Xhomer emulator https://xhomer.isani.org/xhomer/ and instrument it to give me a "good" ROM boot sequence (correlated nicely with device accesses) and compare that with what I saw with my logic analyzer. That's how I figured out my ROM was failing to see an interrupt from the EPCI (I think the ROM was running the EPCI in loopback mode) and so it was resetting. I have to say: the POST on the PC3XX is impressively thorough, but the mechanism for reporting failures is absolutely atrocious (4 LEDs and, if you're lucky, a cryptic octal error code on the screen). I do have a functional 350 that I can instrument, so let me know if I can help. --Bjoren On 5/3/2021 2:29 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 3, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> >> Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having trouble working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 TIME OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It would help to have a working machine to compare it to! >> >> Regards >> >> Rob > That sounds like it's trying to access the boot ROM and not getting an answer. > > paul > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 3 14:53:11 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 15:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RS64 on a PDP-8? Message-ID: <20210503195311.1981B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Is there a controller to attach an RS64 disk to a PDP-8? The only controller for the RS64I can find is the UNIBUS RC11. Thanks. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 3 15:59:18 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 16:59:18 -0400 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <8e712614-a2f4-aba1-b986-48b81fd9bc25@mindspring.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> <8e712614-a2f4-aba1-b986-48b81fd9bc25@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > On May 3, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I have to say: the POST on the PC3XX is impressively thorough, but the mechanism for reporting failures is absolutely atrocious (4 LEDs and, if you're lucky, a cryptic octal error code on the screen). By 1980 standards that's a pretty nice way of doing it, actually. It helps to have a Pro service pocket guide, I'm not sure if those are on line. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 3 16:47:29 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 22:47:29 +0100 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <8e712614-a2f4-aba1-b986-48b81fd9bc25@mindspring.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> <8e712614-a2f4-aba1-b986-48b81fd9bc25@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <01af01d74065$ea238570$be6a9050$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bjoren Davis via > cctalk > Sent: 03 May 2021 20:45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Documentation for F11 Chipset? > > Hello Paul and Rob, > > The next thing I did was to hook up a logic analyzer to the address lines on > the ROM. This told me how far I got with the boot sequence before it > restarted. > > I disassembled the ROM and have some portions of it semi-decoded so that > may be helpful. If you like I can send you the text file I have. > > Another helpful thing for me was to take the Xhomer emulator > https://xhomer.isani.org/xhomer/ and instrument it to give me a "good" > ROM boot sequence (correlated nicely with device accesses) and compare > that with what I saw with my logic analyzer. > > That's how I figured out my ROM was failing to see an interrupt from the EPCI > (I think the ROM was running the EPCI in loopback mode) and so it was > resetting. > > I have to say: the POST on the PC3XX is impressively thorough, but the > mechanism for reporting failures is absolutely atrocious (4 LEDs and, if you're > lucky, a cryptic octal error code on the screen). > In my case all the LEDs come on and stay on, so it isn't executing any instructions at all. I will look at the ROM next. > I do have a functional 350 that I can instrument, so let me know if I can help. If you get the opportunity I would be interested to know how the following signals look: E22 pin 3 CT1 PT 4 (E22 pin 1) CT1 PHASE L (E46 pin 8) You can see how it looks for me here: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/bus-timeout-trace.png Yellow: E22 pin 3 Cyan: CT1 PT 4 (E22 pin 1) Pink: CT1 PHASE L (E46 pin 8) Not shown is trigger off E70 pin 15. > > --Bjoren > > On 5/3/2021 2:29 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On May 3, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any > kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having trouble > working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 TIME > OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It would help > to have a working machine to compare it to! > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Rob > > That sounds like it's trying to access the boot ROM and not getting an > answer. > > > > paul > > > > From bdweb at mindspring.com Mon May 3 16:47:48 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 17:47:48 -0400 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1ad1bb83-3a7e-47f0-f49a-2ea3ce96a0ce@mindspring.com> Rob, Off list: I was wondering: you mentioned you have a printset for the machine.? Is it the one from bitsavers or it is another? I ask because I'm the source of the one on bitsavers, but it is sadly missing the "MP-01483-00 PRINT SET RCX50" subset. I'm hoping someone has a printset that includes that piece. Do you have a different printset? Thanks. --Bjoren On 5/3/2021 6:19 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have gone back to trying to fix my DEC Professional 350. I have a printset > for the machine now. I think the CPU is being constantly reset. > > > > Is there any documentation anywhere on the F11 chipset? Bitsavers only seems > to have the later J11. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > From erik at baigar.de Mon May 3 13:50:21 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (Dr. Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 20:50:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 920M - an European contemprary of the Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some additional remarks: The 920M is par of the 900 Series from Elliott (later Elliott Automation, GEC Marconi Avionics, BAe Systems) ...maybe interesting to note, that apart from the 18bit 920M and related machines, there is a series of 12 bit ones which have a simmilar (but not identical) instruction set. ...even one member of the family had 13 bits. ...these machines where used in applications, where accuracy was less important (autothrottle compputers, air data systems) and size/weight/power consumption was paramount. Sorry, by accident the footer from my work email was with the first posting - all the project is entirely hobby work and not related to the business I am working for... That is my private signature ;-) > > ''~`` > ( o o ) > +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.--------------------------+ > | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | > | erik at baigar.de .oooO Vintage Computer | > | www.baigar.de ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist | > +---------------------------\ (----( )----------------------------+ > \_) ) / > (_/ > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon May 3 18:23:43 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 19:23:43 -0400 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 15:38:33 -0500 > From: Jay Jaeger > Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository > Message-ID: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752 at charter.net> > > The last 12 months I have been pretty busy working on my 1410 in FPGA > project, and there is now more to share, though I have not done much > actual work since February - been too busy playing with other "toys". 8D > > JRJ > The RICM has a 1401 control panel. It would be pretty cool to mount your FPGA to the back of it and get it to blink the lights the right way. https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/interesting_computer_items/ibm-control-panels -- Michael Thompson From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 3 19:05:00 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 20:05:00 -0400 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AED6A71-BDF1-43CB-AB0F-5863FDBEF62D@comcast.net> I don't know what "HD BNC" means. There's only one BNC. By 3W3 do you mean the D-sub shell with 3 coax inserts? Those are standard items, you could just buy one. The only problem you might encounter is that the cable connector kind is probably crimped, and the crimp tooling is likely expensive. But a solder or PC mount connector could be used, with an impedance bump that can be ignored for video applications. Sync on green is the usual from DEC. paul > On May 3, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech wrote: > > I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? Does > anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty > BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can get > red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's > sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA. I > have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with > the RGB BNC inputs. > > Adam From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Mon May 3 19:31:25 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 00:31:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <940419534.134831.1620088285660@mail.yahoo.com> You need a video cable with a 3W3 connector on one end. Original was likely a DEC BC29G-10. That, plus 5BNC-to-VGA cables, and 3 F/F BNC barrels, will work with a multisync monitor that handles sync-on-green. I just went through this with several DECstations, where the Turbochannel graphics options have the same 3W3 connector. On Monday, May 3, 2021, 04:23:05 PM PDT, Adam Thornton via cctech wrote: I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it?? Does anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc?? If I can get red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA.? I have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with the RGB BNC inputs. Adam From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 3 14:01:41 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 14:01:41 -0500 Subject: 920M - an European contemprary of the Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ooo thanks for sharing On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 1:50 PM Dr. Erik Baigar via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Some additional remarks: The 920M is par of the 900 Series from > Elliott (later Elliott Automation, GEC Marconi Avionics, BAe Systems) > > ...maybe interesting to note, that apart from the 18bit 920M and > related machines, there is a series of 12 bit ones which have a > simmilar (but not identical) instruction set. > > ...even one member of the family had 13 bits. > > ...these machines where used in applications, where accuracy was > less important (autothrottle compputers, air data systems) and > size/weight/power consumption was paramount. > > > Sorry, by accident the footer from my work email was with the > first posting - all the project is entirely hobby work and not > related to the business I am working for... > > That is my private signature ;-) > > > > ''~`` > > ( o o ) > > +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.--------------------------+ > > | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | > > | erik at baigar.de .oooO Vintage Computer | > > | www.baigar.de ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist | > > +---------------------------\ (----( )----------------------------+ > > \_) ) / > > (_/ > > > > > > From athornton at gmail.com Mon May 3 18:22:45 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 16:22:45 -0700 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector Message-ID: I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? Does anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can get red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA. I have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with the RGB BNC inputs. Adam From mdehling at gmail.com Mon May 3 19:09:50 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 02:09:50 +0200 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used CONEC 131J20019X to build my 3w3 to vga cable. Here's the datasheet with dimensions: https://cdn-reichelt.de/documents/datenblatt/C120/MIXSTGCO.pdf On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 1:23 AM Adam Thornton via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? Does > anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty > BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can get > red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's > sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA. I > have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with > the RGB BNC inputs. > > Adam > From macro at orcam.me.uk Mon May 3 20:29:26 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 03:29:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: <940419534.134831.1620088285660@mail.yahoo.com> References: <940419534.134831.1620088285660@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 2021, Jonathan Stone via cctech wrote: > You need a video cable with a 3W3 connector on one end. Original was likely a DEC BC29G-10. > That, plus 5BNC-to-VGA cables, and 3 F/F BNC barrels, will work with a multisync monitor that handles sync-on-green. > > I just went through this with several DECstations, where the Turbochannel graphics options have the same 3W3 connector. Or track down a 17-04816-01 part, which is a 6ft DA3W3M-to-DE15F adapter cable (original DEC designation "CABLE ASSY,RND,VIDEO,3W3, 15POS HD") you can wire an ordinary analog VGA cable directly to. Much neater and easier than fiddling with bulky BNC adapters only to get to a VGA connector which is not a proper coax line anyway. Sadly I've got only two of those and would easily now have a use for at least four, but I considered $66 per piece ~20 years ago a tad expensive (and back then only had two video adapters that would require one anyway). Cf. . Failing either solution you can make your own adapter cable: (you'll also need a case for the connector, the other connector and a length of suitable cable of course). They have a US site too. HTH, Maciej From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue May 4 00:02:10 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 22:02:10 -0700 Subject: 920M - an European contemprary of the Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <180E363F-A630-45F3-9756-4AA3A37DAE4F@gmail.com> Quite impressive indeed! I did not know of these machines. Marc > On May 3, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: > > ?ooo thanks for sharing > >> On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 1:50 PM Dr. Erik Baigar via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> >> Some additional remarks: The 920M is par of the 900 Series from >> Elliott (later Elliott Automation, GEC Marconi Avionics, BAe Systems) >> >> ...maybe interesting to note, that apart from the 18bit 920M and >> related machines, there is a series of 12 bit ones which have a >> simmilar (but not identical) instruction set. >> >> ...even one member of the family had 13 bits. >> >> ...these machines where used in applications, where accuracy was >> less important (autothrottle compputers, air data systems) and >> size/weight/power consumption was paramount. >> >> >> Sorry, by accident the footer from my work email was with the >> first posting - all the project is entirely hobby work and not >> related to the business I am working for... >> >> That is my private signature ;-) >>> >>> ''~`` >>> ( o o ) >>> +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.--------------------------+ >>> | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | >>> | erik at baigar.de .oooO Vintage Computer | >>> | www.baigar.de ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist | >>> +---------------------------\ (----( )----------------------------+ >>> \_) ) / >>> (_/ >>> >>> >> >> From erik at baigar.de Tue May 4 00:37:09 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (Dr. Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 07:37:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 920M - an European contemprary of the Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <180E363F-A630-45F3-9756-4AA3A37DAE4F@gmail.com> References: <180E363F-A630-45F3-9756-4AA3A37DAE4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Marc, > Quite impressive indeed! I did not know of these machines. Thanks for your feedback - yes, although more than 700 made, they are quite rare. Took almost 10 years to get hands on one of the 920Ms which where also ahead of time in 1966... Erik. ''~`` ( o o ) +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.--------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | erik at baigar.de .oooO Vintage Computer | | www.baigar.de ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist | +---------------------------\ (----( )----------------------------+ \_) ) / (_/ From doug at doughq.com Tue May 4 00:50:29 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 15:50:29 +1000 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: <1AED6A71-BDF1-43CB-AB0F-5863FDBEF62D@comcast.net> References: <1AED6A71-BDF1-43CB-AB0F-5863FDBEF62D@comcast.net> Message-ID: HI Paul, "I don't know what "HD BNC" means. There's only one BNC" Years ago when working in a university with Photomultiplier tubes, we used HV BNC connectors - these looked like standard BNC, but were rated at 10kv. https://www.radiall.com/products/rf-coaxial-connectors/high-voltage-connectors/bnc-ht-mhv.html We also used to use 75 Ohm BNC connectors for video systems. https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/products/radio-frequency/connectors-adapters/bayonet-connectors-bnc/bnc-75-real It is worth noting that there are multiple BNC connectors. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 15:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I don't know what "HD BNC" means. There's only one BNC. By 3W3 do you > mean the D-sub shell with 3 coax inserts? Those are standard items, you > could just buy one. The only problem you might encounter is that the cable > connector kind is probably crimped, and the crimp tooling is likely > expensive. But a solder or PC mount connector could be used, with an > impedance bump that can be ignored for video applications. > > Sync on green is the usual from DEC. > > paul > > > On May 3, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? Does > > anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty > > BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can > get > > red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's > > sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA. > I > > have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with > > the RGB BNC inputs. > > > > Adam > > From doug at doughq.com Tue May 4 00:56:28 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 15:56:28 +1000 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: <1AED6A71-BDF1-43CB-AB0F-5863FDBEF62D@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Paul, I also found an example of the HD BNC connector - It is interesting. https://au.element14.com/amphenol-rf/095-850-188m050/rf-coax-hd-bnc-plug-hd-bnc-plug/dp/2766835?CMP=KNC-GAU-GEN-DSA-PDP-PAGE&mckv=s_dc|pcrid|435342446135|pkw||pmt|b|slid||product||pgrid|98446732062|ptaid|dsa-922446159331|&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvr6EBhDOARIsAPpqUPGZY4Ngl7SU6FHq9pxKQ8X19QmsxNvM0S6tFazGERm0QBSNbwd46fUaAjkZEALw_wcB Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 15:50, Doug Jackson wrote: > HI Paul, > > "I don't know what "HD BNC" means. There's only one BNC" > > Years ago when working in a university with Photomultiplier tubes, we used > HV BNC connectors - these looked like standard BNC, but were rated at 10kv. > > > https://www.radiall.com/products/rf-coaxial-connectors/high-voltage-connectors/bnc-ht-mhv.html > > We also used to use 75 Ohm BNC connectors for video systems. > > > https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/products/radio-frequency/connectors-adapters/bayonet-connectors-bnc/bnc-75-real > > It is worth noting that there are multiple BNC connectors. > > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for > your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which > case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal > liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally > sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G > > > > > On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 15:30, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > >> I don't know what "HD BNC" means. There's only one BNC. By 3W3 do you >> mean the D-sub shell with 3 coax inserts? Those are standard items, you >> could just buy one. The only problem you might encounter is that the cable >> connector kind is probably crimped, and the crimp tooling is likely >> expensive. But a solder or PC mount connector could be used, with an >> impedance bump that can be ignored for video applications. >> >> Sync on green is the usual from DEC. >> >> paul >> >> > On May 3, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? >> Does >> > anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the >> itty-bitty >> > BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can >> get >> > red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors >> it's >> > sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into >> VGA. I >> > have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with >> > the RGB BNC inputs. >> > >> > Adam >> >> From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue May 4 03:01:22 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 10:01:22 +0200 Subject: 920M - and also the Argus 200 / 700 In-Reply-To: References: <180E363F-A630-45F3-9756-4AA3A37DAE4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yep, Europe was also active at the time. in the UK around 1960 the Argus 200 was developed to control the Bristol Bloodhound anti-aircraft rocket. This computer was one of the very first transistor-based control computers. In Switzerland the Bloodhound was on duty? until 1999 ! One of the sites, once top secret,? is now a museum, and well worth a visit. Check out https://www.museums.ch/org/de/Bloodhound-Lenkwaffenstellung Besides the rockets there is plenty to see for the tech enthusiast : the illuminating radar,? a fully functional Argus 700 computer that was a major update of the Argus 200, and some remnants of the orignal Argus 200 computer, for instance the programmable ROM module. Jos From erik at baigar.de Tue May 4 05:31:24 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Tue, 04 May 2021 10:31:24 +0000 Subject: 920M - and also the Argus 200 / 700 Message-ID: <1620117084790.null> Hi Jos! > in the UK around 1960 the Argus 200 was developed to control the Bristol > Bloodhound anti-aircraft rocket. This computer was one of the very first > transistor-based control computers. Absolutely - in these days Ferranti and Elliott where competitors on the European market for defecne computing! Very funny, that they later merged and today the legacy of both is distributed in the BAe and Leonardo businesses ;-) There are quite interesting stories, on occasions when the two had to cooperate before merging and in the ELDO project mentioned in my video, the computer was from Elliotts whereas the inertial sensor was from Ferranti (https://youtu.be/v-gF5g0nnoE?t=363). > In Switzerland the Bloodhound was on duty?? until 1999 ! One of the sites, > once top secret,?? is now a museum, and well worth a visit. > Check out https://www.museums.ch/org/de/Bloodhound-Lenkwaffenstellung Definitively worth a visit! I am also into the Ferranti navigation systems from the 1970ties (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8) and since years I am trying to find out, what architecture its 32 bit computer is. Here I booked an extensive special tour and the team on mount Gubel organized some experts to join the tour - although I learned that the INS computer is not related to the Argus series, the visit was AMAZING! Also great there to see the technology of the almost Mach3 missile from the 1950ties. Erik. From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue May 4 04:33:41 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 05:33:41 -0400 Subject: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder Message-ID: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> I'm currently reverse-engineering an AMPEX keyboard that uses capacitive key switches. The basic design employs a GI encoder coupled to an 8039 MCU supplemented by a 2K EPROM and 74LS373 (used to latch the ROM address set from Port A while Port A is then used to read data back from the ROM). The 8039 MCU drives a bit-banged serial interface. The PCB identifies itself as AMPEX on the coper foil, although the key switch mounting-plate actually has a "General Instruments Quality Accepted" sticker. The EPROM is labeled "3512663-03 Copyright 1983 AMPEX CORP". The GI encoder is a DIP-40 labeled as "321239007 M2406-054-02 GI 8233 CBU TAIWAN". I seek technical documentation for this IC. It evidently is not a relabeled simple variant of the documented AY-3-4592 as it does not multiplex the input side of the matrix (sense lines), there are fewer output data lines, and the power pins are non-standard (Vcc = pin 37; GND = pin 16). Reverse engineering identifies this M2406-054-02 as supporting an 8 column by 16 row (3 unused in my case) matrix plus 8 output data lines. I can identify analogs of several pins on the AY-3-4592. My interpretation of the pin uses is that the necessary key-scanning behavior is generated using the 8039 ALE line (pin 11) as the encoder clock input. Proper documentation for this IC would be nice to come by! Pointers and suggestions appreciated. Thank you, paul From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 4 05:00:00 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 12:00:00 +0200 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: <1AED6A71-BDF1-43CB-AB0F-5863FDBEF62D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 07:50, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for > your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which > case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal > liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally > sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G Doug, could I ask you to please pay a little more respect to mailing list etiquette? Your reply should go _below_ the text you are replying to, not above. The maximum length for a signature is 4 lines of 80 characters or fewer, and the sig should be prefixed with a line containing two minus signs then a space. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 4 03:35:11 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 09:35:11 +0100 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: <940419534.134831.1620088285660@mail.yahoo.com> References: <940419534.134831.1620088285660@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1bbf01d740c0$66ae0ca0$340a25e0$@gmail.com> Adam, IBM used the same cable on the RS6000 and these pop up on e-bay from time to time. You do need a monitor that will support sync-on-green Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Jonathan > Stone via cctech > Sent: 04 May 2021 01:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts ; Adam > Thornton > Subject: Re: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector > > You need a video cable with a 3W3 connector on one end. Original was likely > a DEC BC29G-10. > That, plus 5BNC-to-VGA cables, and 3 F/F BNC barrels, will work with a > multisync monitor that handles sync-on-green. > > I just went through this with several DECstations, where the Turbochannel > graphics options have the same 3W3 connector. > On Monday, May 3, 2021, 04:23:05 PM PDT, Adam Thornton via cctech > wrote: > > I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? Does > anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty BNC- > ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can get red, > green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's > sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA. I have > at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with the RGB > BNC inputs. > > Adam > From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 4 07:45:43 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 07:45:43 -0500 Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c5b3e46-7805-0e7e-5320-efb690c117dd@charter.net> On 5/3/2021 6:23 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> >> Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 15:38:33 -0500 >> From: Jay Jaeger >> Subject: IBM 1410 FPGA Implementation Update - new github repository >> Message-ID: <68c06711-e563-f1bf-8abc-090793bed752 at charter.net> >> >> The last 12 months I have been pretty busy working on my 1410 in FPGA >> project, and there is now more to share, though I have not done much >> actual work since February - been too busy playing with other "toys". 8D >> >> JRJ >> > > The RICM has a 1401 control panel. It would be pretty cool to mount your > FPGA to the back of it and get it to blink the lights the right way. > > https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/interesting_computer_items/ibm-control-panels > Nope, sorry, wouldn't work. This is a *1410*, not a 1401. The 1410 does usually have a hardware implementation of the 1401 buried inside - accessed via a switch on the console, but it is controlled 1410 style, via the 1415 console (including the selectric for displaying and modifying memory), not via lights and switches like the 1401. However, the *technique* I used could be used to accomplish your goal, though you might need to multiplex the lights depending on how many connections it would take - for example, my Digilent board has 4 Pmod ports so only 32 pins of I/O. JRJ From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 4 08:38:53 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 09:38:53 -0400 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: <1AED6A71-BDF1-43CB-AB0F-5863FDBEF62D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <293CD77E-E82D-4878-96A0-B7E967A5207C@comcast.net> > On May 4, 2021, at 1:50 AM, Doug Jackson wrote: > > HI Paul, > > "I don't know what "HD BNC" means. There's only one BNC" > > Years ago when working in a university with Photomultiplier tubes, we used HV BNC connectors - these looked like standard BNC, but were rated at 10kv. > > https://www.radiall.com/products/rf-coaxial-connectors/high-voltage-connectors/bnc-ht-mhv.html Those are MHV connectors, not BNC, the description makes that clear. > We also used to use 75 Ohm BNC connectors for video systems. > > https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/products/radio-frequency/connectors-adapters/bayonet-connectors-bnc/bnc-75-real Sure. Those are the same shape and size as regular BNC connectors; the difference is in the insulation to produce a 75 ohm characteristic impedance. > It is worth noting that there are multiple BNC connectors. Yes, I see your point. What I meant is that "BNC" refers to a given shape and size. As for the "HD BNC", that's news to me but it seems to be merely a standard BNC connector with slightly tweaked tolerances or materials to be rated to a higher top frequency. For the application we're talking about here, the frequency rating of an ordinary BNC connector is way better than what's needed. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 4 08:48:01 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 06:48:01 -0700 Subject: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> References: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/4/21 2:33 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > I'm currently reverse-engineering an AMPEX keyboard that uses capacitive key > switches. did all of the square foil and foam pads disintegrate in it? From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 4 08:54:40 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 04 May 2021 08:54:40 -0500 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60915220.1050902@pico-systems.com> On 05/03/2021 06:22 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? Does > anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty > BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can get > red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's > sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA. I > have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with > the RGB BNC inputs. > > These connectors (D-style shell same as regular 15, 25 and 37-pin shells) with several coax inserts) are an industry standard. You can buy the connectors and pins from the likes of Digi-Key, Mouser and Newark. They require a fancy crimping tool, but for just 3 contacts, you can probably solder or fudge it somehow. AMP (now TTI) has excellent documents which you ought to be able to turn up at one of the above distributors. Jon From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 4 09:12:46 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 15:12:46 +0100 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: <940419534.134831.1620088285660@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <82b6aca2-174c-7b28-3293-e76553d47123@ntlworld.com> On 04/05/2021 02:29, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > > Failing either solution you can make your own adapter cable: > > > > > > (you'll also need a case for the connector, the other connector and a > length of suitable cable of course). They have a US site too. > Wow: ?2.47 for the housing but ?5.02 for each of the coaxial inserts ... not cheap at all! Mind you, I suspect that an original cable won't be much cheaper either. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue May 4 09:18:29 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 10:18:29 -0400 Subject: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: References: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22d301d740f0$5b80b7d0$12822770$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 9:48 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder > > On 5/4/21 2:33 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > I'm currently reverse-engineering an AMPEX keyboard that uses capacitive key > > switches. > > did all of the square foil and foam pads disintegrate in it? It uses individual sprung metal leaves, with the exception of the caps-lock key which has a central LED and around that an annular square foil/pad that is in fine shape. It's all nicely constructed; the case even includes a spray-on metallized surface that is connected via a sprung contact to the cable shield and the switch-body retaining plate. ----- From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue May 4 09:46:42 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 15:46:42 +0100 Subject: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> References: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:33 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > I'm currently reverse-engineering an AMPEX keyboard that uses capacitive key > switches. The basic design employs a GI encoder coupled to an 8039 MCU > supplemented by a 2K EPROM and 74LS373 (used to latch the ROM address set > from Port A while Port A is then used to read data back from the ROM). The > 8039 MCU drives a bit-banged serial interface. The PCB identifies itself as > AMPEX on the coper foil, although the key switch mounting-plate actually has > a "General Instruments Quality Accepted" sticker. The EPROM is labeled > "3512663-03 Copyright 1983 AMPEX CORP". > > > > The GI encoder is a DIP-40 labeled as "321239007 M2406-054-02 GI 8233 CBU > TAIWAN". I seek technical documentation for this IC. You might take a look at the manuals here : http://cpu-ns32k.net/Whitechapel.html I am pretty sure there's a keyboard techincal description in 'binder 1' and a reverse-engineered schematic in 'binder 2'. While it's not quite the same IC, it's related and the power pins are in the right place :-) Alas there is no real description of what that IC does or how to talk to it from the 8039. It is designed to sit on the 8039 bus, it takes in the multiplexed address/data bus, ALE, rd/ and wr/ -tony From prd at decarchive.org Tue May 4 13:00:31 2021 From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 20:00:31 +0200 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 4 May 2021, at 19:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 17 > Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 16:22:45 -0700 > From: Adam Thornton > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I assume it would be way too much to hope that HD BNC would fit it? Does > anyone have a pointer to the actual physical dimensions of the itty-bitty > BNC-ish connector in the video port of the VAXStation4000vlc? If I can get > red, green, and blue out (assuming since there are only 3 connectors it's > sync-on-green) I can put together a sync splitter and turn it into VGA. I > have at least one decent multisync VGA monitor still, although none with > the RGB BNC inputs. Firstly, apologies if my response doesn't show up nicely in this thread --- I only receive the daily digests so I'm not sure how best to reply to a specific post... But on the subject of sourcing / making video cables with 3W3 connectors on one end, I also balked at the cost of the coaxial insets and decided to make an only marginally dodgy (if I do say so myself) cable out of half of an old VGA cable, three of the 'sleeves' / female connectors contained, in abundance, in every female D-sub connector, and a few bits of heat-shrink (see https://media.decarchive.org/DEC/VAX/VAXstation%204000-VLC/IMG_3941.jpg for a photo of this cable from an albeit sub-optimal angle). The resulting connections were surprisingly stable, however, were I to make another one, I'd replace the grounding alligator clip with a lug that can be screwed onto one of retaining nuts next to the VLC's 3W3 connector, and use longer bits of heat-shrink to fully insulate the outside of the RGB connectors... And just FYI, even as shown, the video quality was more than adequate (considering the resolution of the VLC's LCG framebuffer), however, I suppose one could always attach a shielded DA15 shell to provide a bit of extra noise suppression (as well as mechanical protection). Hope this helps, Peter From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Tue May 4 18:06:11 2021 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 16:06:11 -0700 Subject: Motor generator Message-ID: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 machines using a motor generator. If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain frequency or voltage? From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 4 18:26:09 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 16:26:09 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <30ba26ec-dd7c-205a-8b0b-f305ff98092f@sydex.com> On 5/4/21 4:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 > machines using a motor generator. > > > > If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain > frequency or voltage? 3-phase 400 Hz, IIRC. The 3-phase output enables production of DC output that's mostly DC (about 92%) with a ripple frequency of 6x400 = 2400Hz. --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue May 4 18:32:40 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 16:32:40 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: On 2021-May-04, at 4:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 > machines using a motor generator. > > If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain > frequency or voltage? I dont know about the 360, but a motor/gen can provide several benefits: - isolate the load side from mains noise - provide a degree of regulation from mains fluctuation thanks to the inertia of the rotating mass - raise the frequency so subsequent power supply transformers and caps can be smaller (ala 400Hz operation in aircraft) - convert to 3-phase as Chuck mentioned, although I would have thought that by the time a 360 is running from a motor-gen it's probably already being supplied with incoming 3-phase mains From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 4 18:41:34 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 20:41:34 -0300 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <1c35a8b2-90cf-a68e-8fa9-841063d40154@gmail.com> On 2021-05-04 8:06 p.m., Donald via cctalk wrote: > In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 > machines using a motor generator. > > > > If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain > frequency or voltage? > Not just 360 but 370s as well, the 3031 I assisted with installing hardware fixes on had one and I remember having to crank it up to run diagnostics after a fix was installed.? They where designed to provide stable power at a higher frequency, I seem to remember 600Hz but I may be wrong it has been 40+ years. It was explained to me that by using a higher frequency they could get by with smaller filter capacitors.? The power supplies in the 3031 where all linear with monsters supplying 2V at hundreds of amps. Paul. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 4 18:43:37 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 23:43:37 +0000 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com>, Message-ID: I recall we had a motor generator and fluid cooling for the 3033 we had. We also had 2 smaller ones as well ( forget the numbers ). They all ran 360 code.. It is astounding how far things have come from that time. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brent Hilpert via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 4:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Motor generator On 2021-May-04, at 4:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 > machines using a motor generator. > > If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain > frequency or voltage? I dont know about the 360, but a motor/gen can provide several benefits: - isolate the load side from mains noise - provide a degree of regulation from mains fluctuation thanks to the inertia of the rotating mass - raise the frequency so subsequent power supply transformers and caps can be smaller (ala 400Hz operation in aircraft) - convert to 3-phase as Chuck mentioned, although I would have thought that by the time a 360 is running from a motor-gen it's probably already being supplied with incoming 3-phase mains From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue May 4 18:53:07 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 18:53:07 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <7dbbe87a-af58-309e-cba0-418a23395aa9@gmail.com> Donald via cctalk wrote: > In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 > machines using a motor generator. > > > > If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain > frequency or voltage? Those systems predate my experience by roughly 25-30 years.? But once you go through the trouble of adding such a thing as a motor-generator, then you can make the generator a poly-phase device (say, 12-phase) and get a much lower ripple in a full-wave polyphase rectifier; you can also easily control the output voltage by acting on the generator's rotor field current.? This sort of equipment is used for industrial processes requiring DC at thousands of amps; the polyphase setup makes it possible to leave out the output filter capacitors. carlos. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 4 18:54:45 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 19:54:45 -0400 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <6CF1388B-486B-44DD-AA13-94779D1DBC99@comcast.net> > On May 4, 2021, at 7:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > > In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 > machines using a motor generator. > > If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain > frequency or voltage? I didn't know about S/360 systems. Is that true for all of them? I once worked on a 360 model 44 and I don't remember any motor-generators with that one. A well known machine from that era that uses MG sets is the CDC 6000 series mainframes -- for power supplies, but not for motors. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 4 18:58:05 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 20:58:05 -0300 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <6CF1388B-486B-44DD-AA13-94779D1DBC99@comcast.net> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <6CF1388B-486B-44DD-AA13-94779D1DBC99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6dd00a4d-3f98-4078-e001-c534c2a640d9@gmail.com> On 2021-05-04 8:54 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 4, 2021, at 7:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: >> >> In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 >> machines using a motor generator. >> >> If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain >> frequency or voltage? > I didn't know about S/360 systems. Is that true for all of them? I once worked on a 360 model 44 and I don't remember any motor-generators with that one. > > A well known machine from that era that uses MG sets is the CDC 6000 series mainframes -- for power supplies, but not for motors. > > paul > Nor did the 20, 22, 25 and 30s I saw, but they where all low end machines.? I did see one big 360 with several frames of core but I don't know if it had a MG or not. Paul. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 4 19:01:58 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 20:01:58 -0400 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <7dbbe87a-af58-309e-cba0-418a23395aa9@gmail.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <7dbbe87a-af58-309e-cba0-418a23395aa9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0EB2C23B-9F13-4267-B6AC-D8B29A5B3876@comcast.net> > On May 4, 2021, at 7:53 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > > Donald via cctalk wrote: >> In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 >> machines using a motor generator. >> >> >> If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain >> frequency or voltage? > Those systems predate my experience by roughly 25-30 years. But once you go through the trouble of adding such a thing as a motor-generator, then you can make the generator a poly-phase device (say, 12-phase) and get a much lower ripple in a full-wave polyphase rectifier; you can also easily control the output voltage by acting on the generator's rotor field current. This sort of equipment is used for industrial processes requiring DC at thousands of amps; the polyphase setup makes it possible to leave out the output filter capacitors. Polyphase would be complex, adding more generator windings, wires, and power transformer windings. The usual approach instead is to increase the frequency, which is easy to do. 400 Hz is a standard frequency for applications where transformer weight is a concern, so it's found in airplanes among other things. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 4 19:03:03 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 04 May 2021 19:03:03 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <6091E0B7.6030206@pico-systems.com> On 05/04/2021 06:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 > machines using a motor generator. > > > > If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain > frequency or voltage? > > Nope. I know the 360/50 and 360/65 used a "converter-inverter" that converted 208 3-phase to about 280 V DC, then inverted it with a 4-SCR inverter feeding a resonant transformer to create 120 V 2.5 KHz regulated single-phase sine wave power. All the critical loads in the CPU ran off this power. Notably, the I/O power sequencer and console lamps power supply did not run off this power. The converter-inverter made an absolutely HORRIBLE whine that could be heard 20+ feet from the back of the CPU even in a very noisy machine room. The only "360" machine I know of that used 415 Hz was the Model 195, although I can guess that the 360/85 used 415 Hz also, as it was essentially the prototype of the 370/165. The 370/145 used an internal motor/generator set in the back of the CPU cabinet to produce 120 V 415 Hz 3-phase power. Larger 370's generally were provided with UPS's instead of M/G sets to create the 415 Hz power. Also, the 709X series ran off 400 Hz from a motor/generator set. The 360/50 and /65, at least, were pretty sensitive to noise and short dropouts in the mains supply. The 370's with the MG sets rode through pretty severe power dips with no effect at all, until the disk drives and tape drives went offline. Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue May 4 19:03:37 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 20:03:37 -0400 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <6CF1388B-486B-44DD-AA13-94779D1DBC99@comcast.net> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <6CF1388B-486B-44DD-AA13-94779D1DBC99@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 5/4/21 7:54 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On May 4, 2021, at 7:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: >> >> In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 >> machines using a motor generator. >> >> If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain >> frequency or voltage? > > I didn't know about S/360 systems. Is that true for all of them? I once worked on a 360 model 44 and I don't remember any motor-generators with that one. > > A well known machine from that era that uses MG sets is the CDC 6000 series mainframes -- for power supplies, but not for motors. > And the Univac 1100... bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 4 19:12:20 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 17:12:20 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <30ba26ec-dd7c-205a-8b0b-f305ff98092f@sydex.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <30ba26ec-dd7c-205a-8b0b-f305ff98092f@sydex.com> Message-ID: One additional benefit was that an MG enables one to "coast" a bit through transient power glitches. That is, you'd see the lights flicker, but the machine stays up. Power failures in the bad old days could be very expensive. Old computers did not like being stopped suddenly and then restarted. On the CDC mainframes, you could be down for much of a shift. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 00:07:28 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 22:07:28 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> Very large machines, certainly. There were "site preparation" documents that detail this. I can quote from the 1975 edition of the STAR-100 hardware manual on bitsavers (PDF page 25): "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of providing power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory requires the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." Granted, the STAR was a monster of a machine, but similar setups were used for CDC 6000, 7000 and Cyber 70, 170 machines and others. That doesn't include the refrigeration necessary for the chilled water supply. I/O devices such as card readers and tape drives often used a "split" supply with the 400Hz supplying the electronics and normal 50/60 Hz AC supplying power for motors, etc. Small S/360 systems were operated from standard AC distribution. I don't know where the breakover was for IBM S/360; probably not for the model 30, 40, or 75. The 195, I suspect did use an MG set. The 7090 certainly used MG sets. From the "Power Supply and Distribution Manual" (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/7090%20Power%20Supply%20Control%20and%20Distribution%20223-6904.pdf, page 5): "The IBM 7608, a power converter or motor-generator set which converts incoming 60-cycle three-phase (3?), 208v power to regulated 400-cycle 3? 208v power." --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Wed May 5 02:03:05 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 00:03:05 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/I Negative-bus termination Message-ID: Hey all -- I cabled up the RF08 to my 8/I this evening and it's showing some very faint signs of life -- a DIML instruction appears to do the right thing. That's about it. Until this point I've never had any peripherals for my negibus systems (apart from teletypes), and it occurs to me that I have no idea if the bus needs to be terminated (and if so, with what). There are 6 slots in the RF08 backplane (D01-D06) for daisy-chaining to the next device, which is where I assume they'd go; the RF08 manual does not make it clear what this looks like or if it's actually required, and I've gone through the available PDP-8/I docs and I'm still at a loss. Can anyone with negibus experience point me in the right direction? Thanks, Josh From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed May 5 02:12:53 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 03:12:53 -0400 Subject: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: References: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23eb01d7417e$10e4bdf0$32ae39d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:33 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > > > I'm currently reverse-engineering an AMPEX keyboard that uses capacitive key > > switches. The basic design employs a GI encoder coupled to an 8039 MCU > > supplemented by a 2K EPROM and 74LS373 (used to latch the ROM address set > > from Port A while Port A is then used to read data back from the ROM). The > > 8039 MCU drives a bit-banged serial interface. ... > > > > The GI encoder is a DIP-40 labeled as "321239007 M2406-054-02 GI 8233 CBU > > TAIWAN". I seek technical documentation for this IC. > > You might take a look at the manuals here : > > http://cpu-ns32k.net/Whitechapel.html > > I am pretty sure there's a keyboard techincal description in 'binder > 1' and a reverse-engineered schematic in 'binder 2'. While it's not > quite the same IC, it's related and the power pins are in the right > place :-) > > Alas there is no real description of what that IC does or how to talk > to it from the 8039. It is designed to sit on the 8039 bus, it takes > in the multiplexed address/data bus, ALE, rd/ and wr/ Bingo. That's basically my circuit here (pin for pin) with minor differences in RC values and a much more interesting serial interface (and a _four_ finger salute no less! N-S-T-V Take that DOS ...), although mine supports a buzzer/speaker. The principal inconsistency is that pin 25 is marked "CS" and left open in the "binder 1" schematic (page 132 of 134), and then doesn't appear in your hand-drawn schematic (page 7 of 24). In my circuit it's wired to the 8039 ~PSEN. The straight-thru wiring on ~RD and ~WR alongside ALE with no address decoding is IMO rather odd. I wonder how that design actually works (either assumes that it is the only writable device present, or actually latches 8 bits of address and shadows some valid ROM address) and then what gets written to the encoder for what purpos(es). Disassembly of the EPROM should answer those questions. My objective here is to replace the bit-banged interface with a parallel interface emulating one for an Intel MDS-230. Two questions on notation.: 1. In the "binder 1" schematic pin 6 is marked as Ry and is pulled up via resistor to +5v. On your hand-drawn schematic the corresponding pin appears to be labeled "PVR". What might be the function of this pin? 2. In the "binder 1" schematic pin 15 is marked as Cm and is attached to an RC circuit. On your hand-drawn schematic the corresponding pin appears to be labeled "RC". C = 100 nF. What might be the function of this pin? I'm guessing ~(Power On Reset) rather than as the basis for an on-chip oscillator as seen in the AY-3-4592 pin 36 "RC" given the relatively high capacitance value. Thank you for these new breadcrumbs. paul From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Wed May 5 02:27:18 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 00:27:18 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/I Negative-bus termination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <633e1fa8-d115-30c0-74da-209f125d61a4@gmail.com> On 5/5/2021 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Until this point I've never had any peripherals for my negibus systems > (apart from teletypes), and it occurs to me that I have no idea if the bus > needs to be terminated (and if so, with what). There are 6 slots in the > RF08 backplane (D01-D06) for daisy-chaining to the next device, which is > where I assume they'd go; the RF08 manual does not make it clear what this > looks like or if it's actually required, and I've gone through the > available PDP-8/I docs and I'm still at a loss. > > Can anyone with negibus experience point me in the right direction? I don't have any actual Negibus gear except a TC01 (which I've yet to be able to cable to anything), so I'm likely not the best expert. Regardless, my understanding is that it is terminated in basically the same way as the positive bus, which is to say you stick a G717 in the BAC connector that has the IOP and TS signals on it (at the far end of the bus, of course). This has the effect of terminating the signals that need to be cleanest with 100 ohm resistors to ground. Not sure where I read that though, so I'm not able to easily double check my memory. Vince From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed May 5 02:36:03 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 08:36:03 +0100 Subject: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: <23eb01d7417e$10e4bdf0$32ae39d0$@gmail.com> References: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> <23eb01d7417e$10e4bdf0$32ae39d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 8:12 AM Paul Birkel wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:33 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > I'm currently reverse-engineering an AMPEX keyboard that uses capacitive key > > > switches. The basic design employs a GI encoder coupled to an 8039 MCU > > > supplemented by a 2K EPROM and 74LS373 (used to latch the ROM address set > > > from Port A while Port A is then used to read data back from the ROM). The > > > 8039 MCU drives a bit-banged serial interface. ... > > > > > > The GI encoder is a DIP-40 labeled as "321239007 M2406-054-02 GI 8233 CBU > > > TAIWAN". I seek technical documentation for this IC. > > > > You might take a look at the manuals here : > > > > http://cpu-ns32k.net/Whitechapel.html > > > > I am pretty sure there's a keyboard techincal description in 'binder > > 1' and a reverse-engineered schematic in 'binder 2'. While it's not > > quite the same IC, it's related and the power pins are in the right > > place :-) > > > > Alas there is no real description of what that IC does or how to talk > > to it from the 8039. It is designed to sit on the 8039 bus, it takes > > in the multiplexed address/data bus, ALE, rd/ and wr/ > > Bingo. That's basically my circuit here (pin for pin) with minor differences in RC values and a much more interesting serial interface (and a _four_ finger salute no less! N-S-T-V Take that DOS ...), although mine supports a buzzer/speaker. > > The principal inconsistency is that pin 25 is marked "CS" and left open in the "binder 1" schematic (page 132 of 134), and then doesn't appear in your hand-drawn schematic (page 7 of 24). In my circuit it's wired to the 8039 ~PSEN. > > The straight-thru wiring on ~RD and ~WR alongside ALE with no address decoding is IMO rather odd. I wonder how that design actually works (either assumes that it is the only writable device present, or actually latches 8 bits of address and shadows some valid ROM address) and then what gets written to the encoder for what purpos(es). Disassembly of the EPROM should answer those questions. My objective here is to replace the bit-banged interface with a parallel interface emulating one for an Intel MDS-230. Remember that the 8039 has separate program and data memory spaces. PSEN/ (Program Store ENable) is asserted to access the ROM .If pin 25 of the keyboard scanner chip is CS, that might be Chip Select (active high), to ensure the chip is disabled on ROM accesses. Rd/ and Wr/ are asserted to access data memory. Here the only device is the keyboard scanner chip, so there's no need for address decoding. Since the keyboard scanner chip takes in ALE, there's a chance it uses the lower 8 address lines (multiplexed with the data bus) to select different internal registers, > > Two questions on notation.: > > 1. In the "binder 1" schematic pin 6 is marked as Ry and is pulled up via resistor to +5v. On your hand-drawn schematic the corresponding pin appears to be labeled "PVR". What might be the function of this pin? > > 2. In the "binder 1" schematic pin 15 is marked as Cm and is attached to an RC circuit. On your hand-drawn schematic the corresponding pin appears to be labeled "RC". C = 100 nF. What might be the function of this pin? I'm guessing ~(Power On Reset) rather than as the basis for an on-chip oscillator as seen in the AY-3-4592 pin 36 "RC" given the relatively high capacitance value. My guess is that I called the first 'PUR' for pull-up resistor :-) It may actually set the sensitivity of the row inputs or somethng. The second may be an RC delay to allow the keyboard to settle. There's something similar in the PERQ2 keyboard which uses separate row and column chips. -tony From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed May 5 03:03:24 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 04:03:24 -0400 Subject: General Instruments Capacitive Keyboard Encoder In-Reply-To: References: <225b01d740c8$92a9fe10$b7fdfa30$@gmail.com> <23eb01d7417e$10e4bdf0$32ae39d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23f201d74185$1fb461d0$5f1d2570$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > > On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 8:12 AM Paul Birkel wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > > > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:33 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > The GI encoder is a DIP-40 labeled as "321239007 M2406-054-02 GI 8233 CBU > > > > TAIWAN". I seek technical documentation for this IC. > > > > > > You might take a look at the manuals here : > > > > > > http://cpu-ns32k.net/Whitechapel.html > > > > > > I am pretty sure there's a keyboard techincal description in 'binder > > > 1' and a reverse-engineered schematic in 'binder 2'. While it's not > > > quite the same IC, it's related and the power pins are in the right > > > place :-) > > > > > > Alas there is no real description of what that IC does or how to talk > > > to it from the 8039. It is designed to sit on the 8039 bus, it takes > > > in the multiplexed address/data bus, ALE, rd/ and wr/ > > > > The straight-thru wiring on ~RD and ~WR alongside ALE with no address decoding is IMO > > rather odd. I wonder how that design actually works (either assumes that it is the only writable > > device present, or actually latches 8 bits of address and shadows some valid ROM address) > > and then what gets written to the encoder for what purpos(es). > > Remember that the 8039 has separate program and data memory spaces. "Sokath, his eyes uncovered." Thank you Tony. Your notation observations both sound very reasonable to me. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed May 5 03:23:19 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 01:23:19 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/I Negative-bus termination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/5/2021 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone with negibus experience point me in the right direction? As you and Ethan helped me with on FB about my 8/I, I don't know which bus I had.? And worse it went to a second rack with about 10 of the expansion racks built out with decoders (W103s IIRC) and the like.? I couldn't afford or justify the custom stuff in that rack because other than the manuals for the 8/I it was all undocumented.? I bought a bunch of what I recall were 1949 racks and some cards from the broken up system and the 8/I. I didn't think to ask for termination, but it had to be at the end of a bunch of cables that they pulled apart. I think there were 5 or 6 sets of 6 (?) or so cables daisychaining the peripherals all together. Obviously you have checked whether the cards Vince mentioned (or the termination) in your rack.? If it was the main external peripheral one would hope they were there. Otherwise a scamble to find some or make some.? If you do the latter, let me know as I'm sure I'll be interested and would be glad to buy some PCBs to make it cheaper to get a run made. thanks jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed May 5 04:05:20 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 02:05:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/I Negative-bus termination In-Reply-To: <633e1fa8-d115-30c0-74da-209f125d61a4@gmail.com> References: <633e1fa8-d115-30c0-74da-209f125d61a4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0faf428d-b408-ef5c-b11f-8afa9dffd9e8@jwsss.com> On 5/5/2021 12:27 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 5/5/2021 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> Until this point I've never had any peripherals for my negibus systems >> (apart from teletypes), and it occurs to me that I have no idea if >> the bus >> needs to be terminated (and if so, with what).? There are 6 slots in the >> RF08 backplane (D01-D06) for daisy-chaining to the next device, which is >> where I assume they'd go; the RF08 manual does not make it clear what >> this >> looks like or if it's actually required, and I've gone through the >> available PDP-8/I docs and I'm still at a loss. >> >> Can anyone with negibus experience point me in the right direction? > > I don't have any actual Negibus gear except a TC01 (which I've yet to > be able to cable to anything), so I'm likely not the best expert. > > Regardless, my understanding is that it is terminated in basically the > same way as the positive bus, which is to say you stick a G717 in the > BAC connector that has the IOP and TS signals on it (at the far end of > the bus, of course). > this is Vince's site, (I think) http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Gxxx/G717/ > This has the effect of terminating the signals that need to be > cleanest with 100 ohm resistors to ground. > > Not sure where I read that though, so I'm not able to easily double > check my memory. > > ????Vince > Thanks Jim From linimon at lonesome.com Wed May 5 06:09:59 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 11:09:59 +0000 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 10:07:28PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor > generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of providing > power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory requires > the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." I'm looking at this RISC-V board sitting here on my desk (with its "massive" 2-inch-long heat sink) and shaking my head at how far we have come. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed May 5 06:09:59 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 11:09:59 +0000 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 10:07:28PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor > generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of providing > power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory requires > the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." I'm looking at this RISC-V board sitting here on my desk (with its "massive" 2-inch-long heat sink) and shaking my head at how far we have come. mcl From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 5 07:18:54 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 08:18:54 -0400 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <89BB1D1E-E29E-4F00-8368-4753BD149FC3@comcast.net> > On May 5, 2021, at 1:07 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Very large machines, certainly. There were "site preparation" documents > that detail this. > > I can quote from the 1975 edition of the STAR-100 hardware manual on > bitsavers (PDF page 25): > > "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor > generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of providing > power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory requires > the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." > > Granted, the STAR was a monster of a machine, but similar setups were > used for CDC 6000, 7000 and Cyber 70, 170 machines and others. That > doesn't include the refrigeration necessary for the chilled water > supply. I/O devices such as card readers and tape drives often used a > "split" supply with the 400Hz supplying the electronics and normal 50/60 > Hz AC supplying power for motors, etc. That's definitely the case for the CDC 6000 series, the drawings make this clear. The 6600 mainframe takes 3 phase 400 Hz for power supplies, and 3 phase 50/60 Hz for the compressor motors for the cooling system. Similarly, the DD60 console display for the 6000 machines takes 3 phase 400 Hz power for its power supplies, but single phase mains power for some auxiliary functions. An earlier message commented on the whine from power converters. I don't know how common this practice was, but at the University of Illinois PLATO system which had a pair of 6500 systems, the motor-generator was located near the elevator machinery in a corner of the building, far from the computer room. Yes, it was noisy, but no one spent any time in that location. The computer room was -- by mainframe standards certainly -- rather quiet. Of course it helps to have liquid cooling, so there weren't many noisy fans to deal with. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 5 07:20:59 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 13:20:59 +0100 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <23f601d741a9$1bf66510$53e32f30$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mark Linimon via > cctalk > Sent: 05 May 2021 12:10 > To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Cc: Donald via cctalk > Subject: Re: Motor generator > > On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 10:07:28PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > > "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor > > generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of > > providing power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory > > requires the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." > > I'm looking at this RISC-V board sitting here on my desk (with its "massive" 2- > inch-long heat sink) and shaking my head at how far we have come. > > mcl We had a Motor/Generator for our Honeywell L66. Not sure it was because it wanted US voltages or just for a clean supply Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 5 07:20:59 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 13:20:59 +0100 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <23f601d741a9$1bf66510$53e32f30$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mark Linimon via > cctalk > Sent: 05 May 2021 12:10 > To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Cc: Donald via cctalk > Subject: Re: Motor generator > > On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 10:07:28PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > > "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor > > generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of > > providing power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory > > requires the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." > > I'm looking at this RISC-V board sitting here on my desk (with its "massive" 2- > inch-long heat sink) and shaking my head at how far we have come. > > mcl We had a Motor/Generator for our Honeywell L66. Not sure it was because it wanted US voltages or just for a clean supply Dave From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed May 5 10:07:52 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 09:07:52 -0600 Subject: 400 Hz Message-ID: I have found the Motor Generator thread to be fascinating and enlightening. But it has made many a reference to the 400 Hz or other frequency much higher than mains line frequency. Despite the comments about the frequency, I'm still confused as to why the higher than mains frequency was used. Were the higher frequencies used because it directly effected the amount of time / duration in (fractions of) seconds between peaks of rectified (but not yet smoothed) power? I ask because it seems to me like the percentage of time / duty cycle of raw rectified but not yet smoothed) power would be the same at any and all frequencies. Is this assumption / understanding correct or completely off the mark? A few different people made references to the amount of capacitance needed at 400 Hz et al. vs 50/60 Hz mains frequency. Someone even spoke about high power DC being produced by polyphase converters and the possibility to tweak tweak winding voltages in order to possibly do away with the need for capacitors. Am I starting to understand the motivation behind the 400 Hz or is there something else behind it? Is this really playing to the (dis)charge time of capacitors in between peaks of rectified (but not smoothed) sources? Aside: I started a new thread for this very specific minutia to not mire the other Motor Generator thread down. Thank you for all the comments and those who respond to help me learn something new today. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 5 10:24:53 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 11:24:53 -0400 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 5, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I have found the Motor Generator thread to be fascinating and enlightening. But it has made many a reference to the 400 Hz or other frequency much higher than mains line frequency. Despite the comments about the frequency, I'm still confused as to why the higher than mains frequency was used. > > Were the higher frequencies used because it directly effected the amount of time / duration in (fractions of) seconds between peaks of rectified (but not yet smoothed) power? > > I ask because it seems to me like the percentage of time / duty cycle of raw rectified but not yet smoothed) power would be the same at any and all frequencies. Is this assumption / understanding correct or completely off the mark? > > A few different people made references to the amount of capacitance needed at 400 Hz et al. vs 50/60 Hz mains frequency. Someone even spoke about high power DC being produced by polyphase converters and the possibility to tweak tweak winding voltages in order to possibly do away with the need for capacitors. There are a couple of considerations: transformers, filter capacitors, and ripple amplitude. Ripple amplitude is affected by the number of phases and by whether you use half wave or (the normal) full wave rectifiers. For example, a full wave single phase rectifier produces a abs(sin(2pi * f * t)) waveform. A multi-phase full wave rectifier produces the max of these waveforms offset by the phase angles -- in other words, the "valleys" are filled in by the "peaks" of some of the other phases. The ripple filter then smooths that out into DC, or more precisely, makes the ripples a lot smaller. What exactly those waveforms then look like depend on the filter used. So rectifying 3 phase power produces much smaller ripple than rectifying single phase. For exotic applications where you can afford to deal with more than 3 phases you can make the amplitude smaller still. The above is independent of frequency. Now for transformers. As the operating frequency increases, the amount of iron or other core material needed goes down. So a 400 Hz transformer for a given amount of power can be much smaller than a 60 Hz transformer for the same job. This is why modern power supplies are "switching supplies": they convert the mains voltage into high frequency power -- sometimes as high as a megahertz or so -- which allows the power transformer to be tiny. Finally, capacitors. The ripple attenuation of a filter depends on the impedance of the filter elements. The most common is a capacitor filter, so the filter capacitors (their AC impedance) is in parallel with the load impedance. The ripple attentuation is basically the ratio of filter capacitor impedance to load impedance. Capacitor impedance is inversely proportional to frequency, so the use of a higher frequency allows the use of smaller capacitors. This too is used in modern switching regulators, where the capacitors are often just a few microfarads and are generally ceramic, not electrolytic. In all this there are limits on how far you can usefully go. Motor generators above a few hundred hertz are hard to build, though there exist alternators that produce multiple-kilohertz output (look up Alexanderson machines). Switching regulators can to into the MHz range, but if you go too high your benefits stop because the transformers and capacitors are no longer close enough to "ideal components". For example, the impedance of a capacitor stops dropping at some frequency that depends on its design, this is the ESR (effective series resistance) of the part. Near or above that frequency is is no longer a good filter capacitor, or for that matter a good capacitor for many other purposes. paul From andrew at carrierdetect.com Wed May 5 10:25:36 2021 From: andrew at carrierdetect.com (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 15:25:36 +0000 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/05/2021 16:07, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Were the higher frequencies used because it directly effected the amount > of time / duration in (fractions of) seconds between peaks of rectified > (but not yet smoothed) power? Haven't read the rest of the thread and so at the risk of being profoundly wrong... Benefit of 400Hz mains is that transformers can be much smaller. Think of switching power supplies that rectify to DC and then switch up into kHz, which are then able to use far smaller transformer cores than an old linear PSU. At least this is a key motivation with 115V/400Hz 3-phase aviation power AFAIK. By coincidence we've just built a big 28VDC power supply, so that we can run a vintage 400Hz aircraft rotary inverter, which will then be used to power up old mil surplus kit that wants this. A classic adventure in yak shaving. Anyway, here's the 28VDC bit. https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/constructing-a-high-current-28v-dc-power-supply Andrew From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 10:29:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 08:29:45 -0700 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/5/21 8:07 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I have found the Motor Generator thread to be fascinating and > enlightening.? But it has made many a reference to the 400 Hz or other > frequency much higher than mains line frequency.? Despite the comments > about the frequency, I'm still confused as to why the higher than mains > frequency was used. Iron and filtering. 400Hz means far less iron needed in transformers and variacs (CDC used a three-phase variac at the CPU cabinet for adjustment of voltage). Compare the sizes and it's obvious. Filtering the ripple out of a 2400 Hz 92% DC rectified supply is comparatively simple. A 360Hz supply, less so. In my salad days, I worked at a steel mill where a fair amount of equipment ran from 25 Hz voltage. The transformers were huge in comparison to their 60 Hz cousins. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 10:36:27 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 08:36:27 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <89BB1D1E-E29E-4F00-8368-4753BD149FC3@comcast.net> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <89BB1D1E-E29E-4F00-8368-4753BD149FC3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> On 5/5/21 5:18 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > An earlier message commented on the whine from power converters. I > don't know how common this practice was, but at the University of > Illinois PLATO system which had a pair of 6500 systems, the > motor-generator was located near the elevator machinery in a corner > of the building, far from the computer room. Yes, it was noisy, but > no one spent any time in that location. The computer room was -- by > mainframe standards certainly -- rather quiet. Of course it helps to > have liquid cooling, so there weren't many noisy fans to deal with. It was the "white noise" from the vacuum pumps in the tape drive banks that drove me nuts after a few hours. After 8 hours or so, I sometimes found my hands shaking. Of course this facility had a very large machine floor with several full-sized installations. Eventually, management provided ear protection. As far as any "whine"--I vaguely recall hearing a high-pitched whine if I put my ear close to the power adjustment panel in a CDC Cyber--but it was barely audible. As far as the MG sets themselves, I never went there--any noise at SVLOPE was drowned out by the fans in the cooling tower. I don't recall where the power equipment at ARHOPS was located. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 5 10:37:38 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 11:37:38 -0400 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 5, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Andrew Back via cctalk wrote: > > On 05/05/2021 16:07, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> Were the higher frequencies used because it directly effected the amount >> of time / duration in (fractions of) seconds between peaks of rectified >> (but not yet smoothed) power? > > Haven't read the rest of the thread and so at the risk of being > profoundly wrong... Benefit of 400Hz mains is that transformers can be > much smaller. Think of switching power supplies that rectify to DC and > then switch up into kHz, which are then able to use far smaller > transformer cores than an old linear PSU. At least this is a key > motivation with 115V/400Hz 3-phase aviation power AFAIK. > > By coincidence we've just built a big 28VDC power supply, so that we can > run a vintage 400Hz aircraft rotary inverter, which will then be used to > power up old mil surplus kit that wants this. Incidentally, a way to get three phase power at a frequency of your choice is to use a "variable frequency drive". That's basically a high power solid state inverter intended to drive three-phase motors with a chosen frequency resulting in the RPM of your choice. Depending on the model, those can go up to 120 Hz or so, or all the way to somewhere around 400 Hz. I have a very cheap one at home that runs on single phase 220 volt power, producing up to 3 kW or so at anywhere up to 120 Hz. (Made by a company named Teco, amusingly.) Most of these and especially the larger ones want three phase mains input, though I'm told that even for those you can typically just connect them to single phase power (between two of the three inputs, leaving the third unconnected) at reduced power ratings. These devices are surprisingly cheap, in particular they tend to be cheaper than "rotary phase converters" which is how machine shops traditionally produce three phase power when their mains is just single phase. paul From erik at baigar.de Wed May 5 12:42:04 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 17:42:04 +0000 Subject: 400 Hz Message-ID: <1620229324550.null> ..not to forget, that the 400Hz equipment was readily available from powering aircraft on the ground before the engines take over. So although not cheap, they where cheaper than a custom design at an arbitrary new frequency From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 10:50:03 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 08:50:03 -0700 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47847a80-5e69-fb99-0b93-e987f106a4cd@sydex.com> On 5/5/21 8:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Incidentally, a way to get three phase power at a frequency of your choice is to use a "variable frequency drive". That's basically a high power solid state inverter intended to drive three-phase motors with a chosen frequency resulting in the RPM of your choice. Depending on the model, those can go up to 120 Hz or so, or all the way to somewhere around 400 Hz. I have a very cheap one at home that runs on single phase 220 volt power, producing up to 3 kW or so at anywhere up to 120 Hz. (Made by a company named Teco, amusingly.) Most of these and especially the larger ones want three phase mains input, though I'm told that even for those you can typically just connect them to single phase power (between two of the three inputs, leaving the third unconnected) at reduced power ratings. These devices are surprisingly cheap, in particular they tend to be cheaper than "rotary phase converters" which is how machine shops traditionally produce three phase power when their mains is just single phase. -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From cube1 at charter.net Wed May 5 10:59:24 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 10:59:24 -0500 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/4/2021 1:00 PM, Peter Dreisiger via cctalk wrote: > > Firstly, apologies if my response doesn't show up nicely in this thread --- I only receive the daily digests so I'm not sure how best to reply to a specific post... > > But on the subject of sourcing / making video cables with 3W3 connectors on one end, I also balked at the cost of the coaxial insets and decided to make an only marginally dodgy (if I do say so myself) cable out of half of an old VGA cable, three of the 'sleeves' / female connectors contained, in abundance, in every female D-sub connector, and a few bits of heat-shrink (see https://media.decarchive.org/DEC/VAX/VAXstation%204000-VLC/IMG_3941.jpg for a photo of this cable from an albeit sub-optimal angle). The resulting connections were surprisingly stable, however, were I to make another one, I'd replace the grounding alligator clip with a lug that can be screwed onto one of retaining nuts next to the VLC's 3W3 connector, and use longer bits of heat-shrink to fully insulate the outside of the RGB connectors... > > And just FYI, even as shown, the video quality was more than adequate (considering the resolution of the VLC's LCG framebuffer), however, I suppose one could always attach a shielded DA15 shell to provide a bit of extra noise suppression (as well as mechanical protection). > > > Hope this helps, > > Peter > I, for one, did find this helpful - one could make one of these up to test before possibly forking over the funds to build one properly. JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 10:53:54 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 08:53:54 -0700 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2fbfdced-85e7-c06d-b5fb-e1f5e5ce8619@sydex.com> On 5/5/21 8:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Incidentally, a way to get three phase power at a frequency of your > choice is to use a "variable frequency drive". That's basically a > high power solid state inverter intended to drive three-phase motors > with a chosen frequency resulting in the RPM of your choice. > Depending on the model, those can go up to 120 Hz or so, or all the > way to somewhere around 400 Hz. I have a very cheap one at home that > runs on single phase 220 volt power, producing up to 3 kW or so at > anywhere up to 120 Hz. (Made by a company named Teco, amusingly.) > Most of these and especially the larger ones want three phase mains > input, though I'm told that even for those you can typically just > connect them to single phase power (between two of the three inputs, > leaving the third unconnected) at reduced power ratings. These > devices are surprisingly cheap, in particular they tend to be cheaper > than "rotary phase converters" which is how machine shops > traditionally produce three phase power when their mains is just > single phase. Please forgive the null message--too fast with the mouse. A simple single-to-three phase converter used by many home shops is simply a 3-phase motor fed single-phase power to one pair and a large capacitor connected between the remaining lead and the "hot" side of the power line. Such a motor is an "idler", run no-load--basically a rotary transformer. Of course, you don't get a precise 120 degree phase relationship but it's adequate for powering a lathe or mill. --Chuck From erik at baigar.de Wed May 5 13:00:23 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 18:00:23 +0000 Subject: 400 Hz Message-ID: <1620230423267.null> > Incidentally, a way to get three phase power at a frequency of your > choice is to use a "variable frequency drive". Please be careful with this! Have quite some experience in building three phase inverters from such small boxes for my various avionics projects. (1) The normal ones rectify the mains voltage (in EU this gives around 320V DC) and from this make PWM outputs on three lines. Yes, you can enter voltage and frequency (sometimes even more than 400Hz) digitally, but the outputs are ALWAYS PWM switching between 0V and 320V in the EU. Consequence: If you rectify these outputs you will get back your 320V, completely independent of your settings! You need to use a device called Sinus-Filter, i.e. a low pass using caps and Ls to smooth out and get rid of the PWM - only than you get the correct three phase. (2) The small boxes are only for motors (inductive loads). Connecting someting else (does not matter whether three phase or not) which e.g. has got EMC filters at the input containing caps, the relatively high frequency (e.g. 16kHz, often selectable) will easily toast them leading to a short. (3) The PWM-boxes do not isolate from mains, so you will have pretty high voltages at the PWM outputs with high frequencies which can be a challenge for isolations - so even if you set the inveter to 110V only, but power it from 240Vmains, the isolation of your device needs to handle the full 320V! My biggest inverter based on such a small PWM motor drive inverter is described in my blog (including schematics)... http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/TimeLine.html#inverter1500 (4) DO NOT use these three phase boxes connecting one output and one input pin to your device thinking that this is a single phase output. Creating a "neutral" line at the output of such an inverter can be done, but it requires additional components and than you can use it as single phase device: Here I used a special transfomer after the Sinus filter with input in triangle and output in star configurations. So I get neutral PLUS insulation to mains... Good luck! From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 5 11:06:46 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 11:06:46 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6092C296.9030807@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2021 12:07 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Small S/360 systems were operated from standard AC distribution. I > don't know where the breakover was for IBM S/360; probably not for the > model 30, 40, or 75. The 195, I suspect did use an MG set. > > "Real" 360's did not use MG sets. By real, I mean the ones built with SLT technology, the discrete transistors and diodes on 1/2" square ceramic hybrid modules. The logic was essentially DTL. As best as I can figure, the 360/20, /30, and /40 used some 60 Hz transformer power supplies. (Same for the /22 and /25, later replacements for the model /30.) I'm not so sure about the model /44, a non-microcoded and stripped-down machine intended for process control. (No decimal or character instructions.) The /44 was a pretty big machine, about the same size as a 360/50. The /50 and /65 definitely used the converter-inverter system to supply the logic power supplies with 120 V 2500 Hz regulated sine wave power. I would guess the model /75 used the same scheme. The 360/85 was a prototype of the 370/165, and was built with IBM's own take on ECL, called MST. It was water-cooled, and ran from 415 Hz power. The /85 was slightly repackaged to become the 370/165, and used larger static RAMs in the cache and control store. But, it was still quite similar. The 360/91 and /95 were the same CPU, but the /95 had a non-destructive readout memory system, which offered higher speed due to not needing a writeback of just-read data. These were built with an ECL variant, but using a packaging technology similar to SLT. There isn't a whole lot of detail on the hardware of these machines. They were supercomputers, not microcoded, and with multiple functional units, out of order execution, etc. The basic design was later redone with MST for the model 195. These all ran off 415 Hz power, I think. most installations had massive UPSes for them. Jon From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Wed May 5 10:49:25 2021 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 17:49:25 +0200 Subject: IBM 4700 question Message-ID: <286c1392-62a2-9cd2-e676-41267553c8a1@hccnet.nl> Hi, Does anyone known which processor IBM used in the IBM 4701 ? Branch Controller (8? floppy disc) ? Regards Henk From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 5 11:14:04 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 11:14:04 -0500 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6092C44C.7060704@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2021 10:07 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I have found the Motor Generator thread to be fascinating > and enlightening. But it has made many a reference to the > 400 Hz or other frequency much higher than mains line > frequency. Despite the comments about the frequency, I'm > still confused as to why the higher than mains frequency > was used. > > Were the higher frequencies used because it directly > effected the amount of time / duration in (fractions of) > seconds between peaks of rectified (but not yet smoothed) > power? > It made it possible for transformers, inductors and capacitors to be much smaller. The 2500 Hz power supplies in the 360's delivered 40 A at 6 V, and used inductor-input filters and a final series-pass germanium transistor for regulation. They were about the same size as a 6V 2 A regulated power supply running on 60 Hz. So, to an extent, the answer to your question is yes. But, not exactly just that, because the size of the transformer scaled inversely with frequency. Jon From erik at baigar.de Wed May 5 13:17:45 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (erik at baigar.de) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 18:17:45 +0000 Subject: 400 Hz Message-ID: <1620231465528.null> ..not to forget, that the 400Hz equipment was readily available from powering aircraft on the ground before the engines take over. So although not cheap, they where cheaper than a custom design at an arbitrary new frequency From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 5 11:19:19 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 11:19:19 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <89BB1D1E-E29E-4F00-8368-4753BD149FC3@comcast.net> <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6092C587.3050309@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2021 10:36 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > As far as any "whine"--I vaguely recall hearing a > high-pitched whine if I put my ear close to the power > adjustment panel in a CDC Cyber--but it was barely audible. The inverter whine on the 360/50 and /65 was completely insane, and the 2500 Hz output put the pulses from the push-pull SCRs at 5 KHz, near the ear's peak sensitivity. They had to lay out the machine room so nobody would have to be near it for more than a few seconds. The tape library and CE work area was back behind the CPU. But, it was not really audible near the console. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 5 11:22:57 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 11:22:57 -0500 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6092C661.1080306@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2021 10:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Incidentally, a way to get three phase power at a > frequency of your choice is to use a "variable frequency > drive". That's basically a high power solid state inverter > intended to drive three-phase motors with a chosen > frequency resulting in the RPM of your choice. Depending > on the model, those can go up to 120 Hz or so, or all the > way to somewhere around 400 Hz. I have a very cheap one at > home that runs on single phase 220 volt power, producing > up to 3 kW or so at anywhere up to 120 Hz. (Made by a > company named Teco, amusingly.) Most of these and > especially the larger ones want three phase mains input, > though I'm told that even for those you can typically just > connect them to single phase power (between two of the > three inputs, leaving the third unconnected) at reduced > power ratings. These devices are surprisingly cheap, in > particular they tend to be cheaper than "rotary phase > converters" which is how machine shops traditionally > produce three phase power when their mains is just single > phase. paul Note that VFDs are designed to run motors exclusively. They approximate a sine wave with pulse width modulated 400 V pulses. DON'T EVER try to run electronic gear with a VFD, at least without a massive smoothing filter to convert to a true sine wave. With a motor, the winding inductance solves the problem, and the coils see nice sine-wave currents. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 5 11:39:21 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 12:39:21 -0400 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: <6092C661.1080306@pico-systems.com> References: <6092C661.1080306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <37F25605-7BE0-4F88-B273-6F8D78C9194B@comcast.net> > On May 5, 2021, at 12:22 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 05/05/2021 10:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Incidentally, a way to get three phase power at a frequency of your choice is to use a "variable frequency drive". That's basically a high power solid state inverter intended to drive three-phase motors with a chosen frequency resulting in the RPM of your choice. Depending on the model, those can go up to 120 Hz or so, or all the way to somewhere around 400 Hz. I have a very cheap one at home that runs on single phase 220 volt power, producing up to 3 kW or so at anywhere up to 120 Hz. (Made by a company named Teco, amusingly.) Most of these and especially the larger ones want three phase mains input, though I'm told that even for those you can typically just connect them to single phase power (between two of the three inputs, leaving the third unconnected) at reduced power ratings. These devices are surprisingly cheap, in particular they tend to be cheaper than "rotary phase converters" which is how machine shops traditionally produce three phase power when their mains is just single phase. paul > Note that VFDs are designed to run motors exclusively. They approximate a sine wave with pulse width modulated 400 V pulses. DON'T EVER try to run electronic gear with a VFD, at least without a massive smoothing filter to convert to a true sine wave. With a motor, the winding inductance solves the problem, and the coils see nice sine-wave currents. > > Jon I've heard that. But why? It's not like the electronics we're talking about actually runs on AC. Instead, it goes right into a transformer (an inductive load not much different from a motor) and after that into a ripple filter. That filter IS the "massive smoothing filter" you're talking about. It's certainly worth a test especially before connecting something rare and ancient, but I see no theoretical reason for it to cause trouble. The voltage issue is a different one. I've never seen a VFD that offered anything other than frequency change -- indeed, it produces the same RMS output voltage as what you feed it, and it isn't insulated. Again, for the application we're talking about that is likely to be fine. For example, the CDC 6600 wants 208 volt three-phase (in the US model) both at 60 Hz for the motors and at 400 Hz for the main power. Chuck mentioned an "idler motor", that's what is sold commercially as a "rotary converter". Those are nice and can be had for quite high power, but often a VFD does the job more cheaply (and with the added benefit of speed control) for much less. I think my Teco converter cost about $100, way less than a commercial rotary converter rated at 3 hp as that one was, and for a lot less effort than home-building a rotary converter would be. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Wed May 5 12:41:23 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 10:41:23 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/I Negative-bus termination In-Reply-To: <633e1fa8-d115-30c0-74da-209f125d61a4@gmail.com> References: <633e1fa8-d115-30c0-74da-209f125d61a4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 12:27 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/5/2021 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Until this point I've never had any peripherals for my negibus systems > > (apart from teletypes), and it occurs to me that I have no idea if the > bus > > needs to be terminated (and if so, with what). There are 6 slots in the > > RF08 backplane (D01-D06) for daisy-chaining to the next device, which is > > where I assume they'd go; the RF08 manual does not make it clear what > this > > looks like or if it's actually required, and I've gone through the > > available PDP-8/I docs and I'm still at a loss. > > > > Can anyone with negibus experience point me in the right direction? > > I don't have any actual Negibus gear except a TC01 (which I've yet to be > able to cable to anything), so I'm likely not the best expert. > > Regardless, my understanding is that it is terminated in basically the > same way as the positive bus, which is to say you stick a G717 in the > BAC connector that has the IOP and TS signals on it (at the far end of > the bus, of course). > > This has the effect of terminating the signals that need to be cleanest > with 100 ohm resistors to ground. > > Not sure where I read that though, so I'm not able to easily double > check my memory. > Thanks! Looking at the engineering drawings and other docs for the RF08 ( http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/disc/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf): Section 2.2.5 of the manual states "Figure 2-5 shows proper cable connections between the RF08 Disk Control and the central processor and proper termination techniques at the time of installation." In figure 2-5 (p. 25) there's the cabling diagram and no explicit termination instructions called out for slots D01-D06; however, looking closer at the IOP signals, the lines coming out of the block terminate in a circle, as do the T1, PCL, and B RUN signals. Is this circle DEC shorthand for "terminate this?" Additionally, on p. 88, there are a series of asterisk-denoted 100 ohm resistors (connected to the IOP1/2/4 signals) which I assume are meant to be on the backplane. On other schematic pages there are other 100 ohm resistors (with asterisks) for T1, PCL, etc. These don't appear to be present on mine; there's a note on p. 88: "* 100 OHM TERMINATING RESISTORS ARE USED ONLY ON THE PDP-8 NOT ON THE PDP-8I" which would likely explain it. Based on this, I /think/ I'm OK termination wise with my system. Wonder why there's a difference between the two systems... - Josh > Vince > From erik at baigar.de Wed May 5 13:39:54 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (Dr. Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 20:39:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: <37F25605-7BE0-4F88-B273-6F8D78C9194B@comcast.net> References: <6092C661.1080306@pico-systems.com> <37F25605-7BE0-4F88-B273-6F8D78C9194B@comcast.net> Message-ID: k >> Note that VFDs are designed to run motors exclusively. They >> approximate a sine wave with pulse width modulated 400 V pulses. DON'T >> EVER try to run electronic gear with a VFD, at least without a massive Yes, that is what I suggested; these filters are called "Sinus Filters" in the field of driving even motors over longer cables. One does not want to transmit the 10kHz PWM over longer distrances. > I've heard that. But why? It's not like the electronics we're talking about actually runs on AC. (a) Input filters often contain caps... https://uk.tdk-lambda.com/content/faq/130796117766108286_FilterFAQ_how%20Image%201.jpg With 50Hz or 60Hz they create a little current which does not hurt. Applying a square wave of 15kHz has harmonics up to 100kHz and more. That means, that the current in these is more than 100 times bigger - BAM! > Instead, it goes right into a transformer (an inductive load not much > different from a motor) (b) Yes, a transformer usually has an optimum frequency range. Above it does not deliver the energy to the output. Why? (1) Because of stray inductivity. That is what helps you in filtering ther higer frequencies. But there is also (2) capacity between windings shorting the higher frequencies -> Heat and stress for the insulation. And finally (3) each time you are changing the magnetic field in the core, it causes loss and heat. The more often one tries to do that, the more loss -> Additional heat. Summary: Depends on the transformer what happens. May be OK, may fail after some time duer to heat or the insulation may break down. > and after that into a ripple filter. That > filter IS the "massive smoothing filter" you're talking about. (c) After the rectifier, you have got the caps. They are no problem, but the rectifiers (e.g. 1N4007 or similar) are optimited for lower frequencies. They to not like higher frequencies: Esp. seitching them off causes some current in the wrong direction eventually heating the diode. May be a problem, but have not had trouble with this case yet... > The voltage issue is a different one. I've never seen a VFD that > offered anything other than frequency change -- indeed, it produces the > same RMS output voltage as what you feed it, and it isn't insulated. Look to the link in my other email. The device there is around USD100 and you can select frequency (10..400Hz) and Uout (10%...100%) and also go ramps etc. Again good luck ;-) Erik. ''~`` ( o o ) +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.--------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | erik at baigar.de .oooO Vintage Computer | | www.baigar.de ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist | +---------------------------\ (----( )----------------------------+ \_) ) / (_/ From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Wed May 5 14:46:20 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 14:46:20 -0500 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: <6092C661.1080306@pico-systems.com> <37F25605-7BE0-4F88-B273-6F8D78C9194B@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dr. Erik Baigar via cctalk wrote: >> I've heard that.? But why?? It's not like the electronics we're >> talking about actually runs on AC. > > (a) Input filters often contain caps... > https://uk.tdk-lambda.com/content/faq/130796117766108286_FilterFAQ_how%20Image%201.jpg > > With 50Hz or 60Hz they create a little current which does not hurt. > Applying a square wave of 15kHz has harmonics up to 100kHz and more. > That means, that the current in these is more than 100 times bigger - > BAM! Additionally, output devices with really fast switching times can trigger reflections back from the load, and these can potentially expose these devices to very high reflected voltages, which will trigger their breakdown.? I've seen it happen in oil field equipment, with IGBTs. Carlos. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed May 5 19:18:55 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 19:18:55 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> On 5/5/21 6:09 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 10:07:28PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: >> "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor >> generator set. The motor-generator set has the capability of providing >> power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory requires >> the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." > > I'm looking at this RISC-V board sitting here on my desk (with its > "massive" 2-inch-long heat sink) and shaking my head at how far we have > come. I seem to recall an anecdote about Acorn hooking up the first prototype ARM-1 processor and it working, despite showing no current draw on the connected ammeter - it then transpired that the power supply was still switched off, but it was so efficient that it was able to run via leakage current on the connected I/O lines. Jules From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Wed May 5 19:44:37 2021 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 17:44:37 -0700 Subject: Motor generator Message-ID: <013201d74210$ff2b0b80$fd812280$@emailtoilet.com> Many thanks for all the info. I just wanted to make sure my recesses were right. I asked about MG because, in an audio forum, I see folks paying crazy money for AC cords and power line conditioners. I thought a good MG would solve many of the 'problems' they are trying to fix. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 5 20:14:36 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 20:14:36 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <013201d74210$ff2b0b80$fd812280$@emailtoilet.com> References: <013201d74210$ff2b0b80$fd812280$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <609342FC.3070100@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2021 07:44 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > Many thanks for all the info. I just wanted to make sure my recesses were > right. > > > > I asked about MG because, in an audio forum, I see folks paying crazy money > for AC cords and power line conditioners. I thought a good MG would solve > many of the 'problems' they are trying to fix. > > Oh, that's audio-phoolery, the discussion topic of lots of people with a real understanding of electronics and physics. The audiophools have NO understanding, just "belief". And, they get fleeced regularly by this kind of stuff. Jon From cube1 at charter.net Wed May 5 20:31:33 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 20:31:33 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <609342FC.3070100@pico-systems.com> References: <013201d74210$ff2b0b80$fd812280$@emailtoilet.com> <609342FC.3070100@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <051e75fc-5cdd-ca01-1f2a-31c31cc99f99@charter.net> I think a lot of the time audio-phools, if they will be honest with themselves, are really trying to recreate the stereo (or even HiFi) sounds of the 1960s because they have fond memories and like it better. THAT I have no problem with whatsoever. What gets annoying is when the phools try and convince others that this old gear somehow more accurately reproduces recordings or that the "fleecy" stuff referred to actually makes things better. Oh well. JRJ On 5/5/2021 8:14 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 05/05/2021 07:44 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: >> Many thanks for all the info. I just wanted to make sure my recesses were >> right. >> >> >> I asked about MG because, in an audio forum, I see folks paying crazy >> money >> for AC cords and power line conditioners.? I thought a good MG would >> solve >> many of the 'problems' they are trying to fix. >> >> > Oh, that's audio-phoolery, the discussion topic of lots of people with a > real understanding of electronics and physics.? The audiophools have NO > understanding, just "belief".? And, they get fleeced regularly by this > kind of stuff. > > Jon From cube1 at charter.net Wed May 5 20:40:25 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 20:40:25 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/5/2021 7:18 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 5/5/21 6:09 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 10:07:28PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: >>> "Power for the basic computer consists of one 250 kva, 400 Hz motor >>> generator set.? The motor-generator set has the capability of providing >>> power for the CPU, MCS, I/O and the MCU. The optional memory requires >>> the addition of an 80 kva motor-generator set." >> >> I'm looking at this RISC-V board sitting here on my desk (with its >> "massive" 2-inch-long heat sink) and shaking my head at how far we have >> come. > > I seem to recall an anecdote about Acorn hooking up the first prototype > ARM-1 processor and it working, despite showing no current draw on the > connected ammeter - it then transpired that the power supply was still > switched off,? but it was so efficient that it was able to run via > leakage current on the connected I/O lines. > > Jules > While I was in grad school at U.W. (the one in Wisconsin) we had obtained via surplus an IBM 7094 II from military surplus - I seem to recall WSMR (White Sands Missle Range). Of course, it had an MG. We got it put together and with a replaced transistor here and there (one of which was modern silicon) we got it running. We had NO peripherals, but my friend Paul came up with the idea to use a sense switch to talk RS-232 at 9600bps, and using that he got the Purdue University Fast FORTRAN Translator (PUFFT)loaded and up and running, and I wrote some support code on a Datacraft 6024 to send it card images and receive print lines. One evening after supper I convinced my wife to let me head down to the CS building and play. I stepped into the CS building and man, there was a lot of smokey smell and obvious evidence of smoke - but no alarms. It got worse as I headed down towards the basement where we had the gear set up. It turned out one of the bearings in the MG had welded itself to the shaft (and not for lack of proper lubrication). Thing was about 5" in diameter. That put us out of commission for a while, until many months later the UW Machine shop fixed it up. Not too long after that machine, and an IBM 1410 that had been donated by Oscar Mayer were sold off to a place in Ohio where they actually were still using that second hand gear in 1977 - and it was that very same outfit that we visited decades later and recovered the IBM 1410 PR155 operating system tape and diagnostics, a copy of OS/360, and other interesting stuff. JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 6 00:14:22 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 22:14:22 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57bf2ca3-b042-77d6-fca4-a8535d464b58@sydex.com> On 5/5/21 6:40 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > While I was in grad school at U.W. (the one in Wisconsin) we had > obtained via surplus an IBM 7094 II from military surplus - I seem to > recall WSMR (White Sands Missle Range).? Of course, it had an MG.? We > got it put together and with a replaced transistor here and there (one > of which was modern silicon) we got it running.? We had NO peripherals, > but my friend Paul came up with the idea to use a sense switch to talk > RS-232 at 9600bps, and using that he got the Purdue University Fast > FORTRAN Translator (PUFFT)loaded and up and running, and I wrote some > support code on a Datacraft 6024 to send it card images and receive... I remember PUFFT--wasn't that Saul Rosen's baby? Purdue, IIRC, had a couple of 7094s and a CDC 6500 and a 1401 operated as SPOOL in the basement of the Math building. Other departments had their own systems--Industrial Management, for example, had an 1130 that nobody seemed to be interested in and was available to anyone who wanted to use it. I think Administration had an S/360 installation. I believe that there was the odd 1620 scattered here and there. I recall Rosen's numerical methods course--on the first day, he came in lugging one of those Monroe or Friden mechanical calculating machines to demonstrate significance and loss thereof. PUFFT was one of those language translators that was so permissive (it would even suggest correct spellings of misspelled keywords, correct syntax, etc.) Basically a student compiler that would guarantee that just about any garbage could be turned into a program. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed May 5 14:44:20 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 15:44:20 -0400 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 13:20:59 +0100 > From: > Subject: RE: Motor generator > > We had a Motor/Generator for our Honeywell L66. Not sure it was because it > wanted US voltages or just for a clean supply > Dave > I also worked on a Honeywell L66 that had two motor-generators. We used one at a time, and swapped the operational one each month. They cleaned up the noise in the incoming 208VAC 3-phase power, and the really heavy flywheel provided a little ride through for short term power drop outs. -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed May 5 15:49:44 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 16:49:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/I Negative-bus termination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 00:03:05 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: PDP-8/I Negative-bus termination > > Hey all -- > > Until this point I've never had any peripherals for my negibus systems > (apart from teletypes), and it occurs to me that I have no idea if the bus > needs to be terminated (and if so, with what). There are 6 slots in the > RF08 backplane (D01-D06) for daisy-chaining to the next device, which is > where I assume they'd go; the RF08 manual does not make it clear what this > looks like or if it's actually required, and I've gone through the > available PDP-8/I docs and I'm still at a loss. > > Can anyone with negibus experience point me in the right direction? > > Thanks, > Josh > The DEC Field Service Technical Manual has some notes on bus termination. It says: Termination is required on I/O cables longer than 20 ft., and may be desirable on shorter cables. For negative bus, use 220 Ohm shunt resistors to ground on IOP 1, IOP 2, IOP 4, BTS 1, BTS 3 and Initialize. No special termination module exists for the negative bus. -- Michael Thompson From erik at baigar.de Thu May 6 02:59:22 2021 From: erik at baigar.de (Dr. Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 09:59:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: <6092C661.1080306@pico-systems.com> <37F25605-7BE0-4F88-B273-6F8D78C9194B@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> Applying a square wave of 15kHz has harmonics up to 100kHz and more. >> That means, that the current in these is more than 100 times bigger - BAM! > Additionally, output devices with really fast switching times can trigger > reflections back from the load, and these can potentially expose these > devices to very high reflected voltages, which will trigger their breakdown.? Yes, can definitively happen. The small modern ones with the digital DSPs recognize this and get an error message, but bigger ones might noch have enough time before failure! Good input Carlos! ''~`` ( o o ) +------------------------.oooO--(_)--Oooo.--------------------------+ | Dr. Erik Baigar Inertial Navigation & | | erik at baigar.de .oooO Vintage Computer | | www.baigar.de ( ) Oooo. Hobbyist | +---------------------------\ (----( )----------------------------+ \_) ) / (_/ From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 6 08:18:04 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 15:18:04 +0200 Subject: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 May 2021 at 17:59, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > I, for one, did find this helpful - one could make one of these up to > test before possibly forking over the funds to build one properly. If anyone were up to making a small batch of these, I'd be happy to pay for a few, plus shipping etc. I have 3 ? 4000VLCs and only 1 monitor for 'em, and I hope to get them running again sometime... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 6 08:26:53 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 08:26:53 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <57bf2ca3-b042-77d6-fca4-a8535d464b58@sydex.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> <57bf2ca3-b042-77d6-fca4-a8535d464b58@sydex.com> Message-ID: <473cb20b-76d2-f782-66c7-31e0fce3ea16@charter.net> On 5/6/2021 12:14 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/5/21 6:40 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> While I was in grad school at U.W. (the one in Wisconsin) we had >> obtained via surplus an IBM 7094 II from military surplus - I seem to >> recall WSMR (White Sands Missle Range).? Of course, it had an MG.? We >> got it put together and with a replaced transistor here and there (one >> of which was modern silicon) we got it running.? We had NO peripherals, >> but my friend Paul came up with the idea to use a sense switch to talk >> RS-232 at 9600bps, and using that he got the Purdue University Fast >> FORTRAN Translator (PUFFT)loaded and up and running, and I wrote some >> support code on a Datacraft 6024 to send it card images and receive... > > I remember PUFFT--wasn't that Saul Rosen's baby? Purdue, IIRC, had a > couple of 7094s and a CDC 6500 and a 1401 operated as SPOOL in the > basement of the Math building. Other departments had their own > systems--Industrial Management, for example, had an 1130 that nobody > seemed to be interested in and was available to anyone who wanted to use > it. I think Administration had an S/360 installation. I believe that > there was the odd 1620 scattered here and there. Apparently, yes: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/365660.365671 https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/dissertations/AAI7003878/ https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/57766/TR160.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y The last two papers involved Edouard Desautels, who was at UW when I was there - I really like the guy. He coordinated the "systems lab" and I think was central to acquiring the 7094 II from surplus. The last paper (which you can actually download unlike Purdue who seems to have locked their papers up) hints at why that might have been done. UW had a Univac 1108 and two B5500's when I started (the second loaned because Burroughs was late delivering the B8500 - and then lied to UW when the faculty paid a visit - by lashing up a pair of B6500's, according to one prof. I had who was there.) The 1108 and B5500's were replaced by a Univac 1110 before I graduated in 1975. There was also a CDC 3600 and a CDC 1604. The CDC 3600 was damaged in the infamous Sterling Hall bombing, but I think the 1604 came out fine. I expect those were both gone by 1975. The system lab had a PDP-11/20 and a Datacraft 6024, then after UNIX showed up (V6 and then V7) got a PDP-11/45 and a PDP-11/40 that was not used for UNIX, and then a PDP-11/70 for UNIX for the CS department shortly after I graduated and left. The 7094 II and the Oscar Mayer 1410 were not used for anything serious and only lasted a couple of years - there were not even any peripherals for them. I think Prof. Desautels intended they be used for entry level instructional classes in FORTRAN and COBOL, maybe (see above). Engineering had a couple of IBM 1620's (one with a disk) that became disused when they obtained a Datacraft 6024 around 1970, I think. The electrical engineering department had a PDP-11/20 almost identical to the one the the CS dept. had that I did some independent study on. The School of Business, where I worked as student help / grad project assistant had an IBM 1410 that had been used by the UW Registrar. When the administration consolidated, they obtained some model of IBM S/360. There was an old old IBM 7094 with oil core (or maybe even a 7090, I don't recall) on the 9th floor of the Chemistry building used by one particular researcher. It had Potter peripherals. At one point it failed pretty badly, and three of us went over to see if we could figure out the problem. They ended up calling in a couple of guys from Purdue to help figure it out. The Social Science Research Institute had a S/360 (a model 30 or 50, I think), as well, right across the street from the School of Business. To try and get their arms around instructional computing, the UW computing committee (which somehow ended up with an acronym something like acc-acc) commissioned a DEC PDP-11/70 for students to use, replacing the Business School 1410 and some other smaller systems. It was a disaster - it just couldn't keep up. > > I recall Rosen's numerical methods course--on the first day, he came in > lugging one of those Monroe or Friden mechanical calculating machines to > demonstrate significance and loss thereof. > > PUFFT was one of those language translators that was so permissive (it > would even suggest correct spellings of misspelled keywords, correct > syntax, etc.) Basically a student compiler that would guarantee that > just about any garbage could be turned into a program. We were able to play with it because it was core-resident - didn't need any peripherals to run once it got loaded (see the above third paper.) > > --Chuck > > From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 6 08:34:24 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 08:34:24 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <473cb20b-76d2-f782-66c7-31e0fce3ea16@charter.net> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> <57bf2ca3-b042-77d6-fca4-a8535d464b58@sydex.com> <473cb20b-76d2-f782-66c7-31e0fce3ea16@charter.net> Message-ID: <3509e328-117a-0156-3bc0-09c03ca0f15f@charter.net> On 5/6/2021 8:26 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > Apparently, yes:? https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/365660.365671 > https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/dissertations/AAI7003878/ > > https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/57766/TR160.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y > > > The last two papers involved Edouard Desautels, who was at UW when I was > there - I really like the guy.? He coordinated the "systems lab" and I > think was central to acquiring the 7094 II from surplus. The last paper > (which you can actually download unlike Purdue who seems to have locked > their papers up) hints at why that might have been done. > Actually, I see that it was indeed possible to download the Purdue paper - it was Ed. Desautels thesis on PUFFT - all one ever wanted to know and then some. ;) JRJ From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 6 08:45:02 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 15:45:02 +0200 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 02:19, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > I seem to recall an anecdote about Acorn hooking up the first prototype > ARM-1 processor and it working, despite showing no current draw on the > connected ammeter - it then transpired that the power supply was still > switched off, but it was so efficient that it was able to run via leakage > current on the connected I/O lines. Oh yes indeed. Sophie Wilson did a talk at the last ROUGOL meeting, last month. Not sure if the video is online yet. I can share it here when it's up if folk are interested. There are a few stories of bring-up of the first ARM chips that were remarkable. * The unanticipatedly low power draw; * Simulating the instruction set in BBC BASIC on a BBC Micro during the design phase, instead of some vastly-expensive bigger system; * The fact that the very first silicon worked very nearly perfectly first time; * Embedding a `MANDEL` instruction into the BASIC for demos, because people expected it so often that it was worth implementing someone's algorithm in ARM code and putting it directly into the interpreter. She's really quite pessimistic about the future of microprocessor manufacture. She gleefully made fun of Intel quite a bit, but pointed out the [cough] _inaccuracies_ and shall we say _over-enthusiastic_ claims of their marketing materials concerning die size. She's quite impressed with AMD's recent designs, which partition parts of multicore processors into separate dies, so that only the bits that really need it can be made on the very expensive tiny feature size processes, and other bits on cheaper, larger feature sizes. Oddly she barely mentioned Apple Silicon, merely that they were extremely aggressive with wide superscalar designs and so on. Her overall point being that although it _is_ possible for transistor sizes etc to get a _little_ smaller than is mainstream now, the industry is now at the point where smaller-feature-size, faster chips are actually getting _more_ expensive to make, not less. We are very nearly at the end of the line of high-end chips getting faster at all. Part of this is due to language design. I noticed myself that in recent decades, chips seem to be designed to run C fast, to put it simply. Wilson feels that the instruction model of C is now a limiting factor, and that one of the only ways to go is something akin to her own FirePath processor design for Broadcom. Firepath is more or less the "Son of ARM". Not much is public about Firepath and this is one of the best references I know: https://everything2.com/title/FirePath It can do things like load 8 different bytes of data into a set of registers, perform arithmetic on them, and depending on the result, put the results back somewhere else or not, in a single assembler opcode in a single cycle... and she feels that no contemporary high-level language can usefully express such operations. I suppose APL might come closest, but it's hardly mainstream. I find it an interesting thought that once the only way to get more performance will soon be to switch to radically different processor architectures that always work in ways very loosely comparable to MMX or Altivec (and their descendants), and write new programs in new languages on new OSes that can exploit deep hardware parallelism. The flipside of the coin may be that current, "traditional" designs will get smaller and cheaper and use less power, and the only way to squeeze better performance out of them will be to use smaller, simpler OSes. There's a chance here for what the mainstream sees as obsolete or irrelevant OSes and languages to enjoy a revival. The vanguard could be VMS. I'd love to see this. I found it amusing after my FOSDEM talk in February, which talked about this. I was talking about some of the ideas on the Squeak Smalltalk mailing list. I listed a set of criteria I'd been using to narrow down my selection of criteria: ? a clean, simple OS, with SMP support, that supported pre-emption, memory management etc. ? in a type-safe language, with a native-object-code compiler ? not JITTed, not using a VM or runtime ? and a readable language, not something far outside the Algol family of imperative HLLs ? that was portable across different architectures ? that was FOSS and could be forked ? that was documented and had a user community who knew it ? that can be built with FOSS tools (which RISC OS fails, for instance) ? which is or was used by non-specialists for general purpose computing ? which can usefully access the Internet ? which runs on commodity hardware ? which does not have a strongly filesystem-centric design that would not fit a PMEM-only computer (i.e. not an xNix) ... and several people went "no, that is impossible. Match all of those at once and you have the null set. And I said, no, this is why I picked Oberon and A2. The result seemed to be a number of people who hadn't been paying much attention sitting up and asking what language/OS this was. It was similar to trying to summarise what I'd learned about Lisp to a Unix community in Another Place a few years ago. It all washed over them until I quoted observations such as Alan Kay's "Lisp is the Maxwell's Equations of programming languages", which made a few people suddenly wake up and go read the links I was providing. Some stuff may yet come back from obscurity. I hope. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From david at kdbarto.org Thu May 6 09:00:45 2021 From: david at kdbarto.org (David Barto) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 07:00:45 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <051e75fc-5cdd-ca01-1f2a-31c31cc99f99@charter.net> References: <013201d74210$ff2b0b80$fd812280$@emailtoilet.com> <609342FC.3070100@pico-systems.com> <051e75fc-5cdd-ca01-1f2a-31c31cc99f99@charter.net> Message-ID: <9AFD6EF8-FBC9-40DB-83B2-E8984687B492@kdbarto.org> I don?t refer to them as Audio-phools. They are GESR?s. (pronounced guesser) Golden Eared Sonic Reviewers They guess this sounds better than that, so it must be worth it. David > On May 5, 2021, at 6:31 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > I think a lot of the time audio-phools, if they will be honest with themselves, are really trying to recreate the stereo (or even HiFi) sounds of the 1960s because they have fond memories and like it better. THAT I have no problem with whatsoever. > > What gets annoying is when the phools try and convince others that this old gear somehow more accurately reproduces recordings or that the "fleecy" stuff referred to actually makes things better. Oh well. > > JRJ > > On 5/5/2021 8:14 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 05/05/2021 07:44 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: >>> Many thanks for all the info. I just wanted to make sure my recesses were >>> right. >>> >>> >>> I asked about MG because, in an audio forum, I see folks paying crazy money >>> for AC cords and power line conditioners. I thought a good MG would solve >>> many of the 'problems' they are trying to fix. >>> >>> >> Oh, that's audio-phoolery, the discussion topic of lots of people with a real understanding of electronics and physics. The audiophools have NO understanding, just "belief". And, they get fleeced regularly by this kind of stuff. >> Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 6 09:13:19 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 10:13:19 -0400 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0B8D8846-3CF8-40AB-9D08-29F346B16F2C@comcast.net> > On May 6, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 02:19, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I seem to recall an anecdote about Acorn hooking up the first prototype >> ARM-1 processor and it working, despite showing no current draw on the >> connected ammeter - it then transpired that the power supply was still >> switched off, but it was so efficient that it was able to run via leakage >> current on the connected I/O lines. > > Oh yes indeed. > > Sophie Wilson did a talk at the last ROUGOL meeting, last month. ... > > She's really quite pessimistic about the future of microprocessor manufacture. > ... > Firepath is more or less the "Son of ARM". Not much is public about > Firepath and this is one of the best references I know: > https://everything2.com/title/FirePath > > It can do things like load 8 different bytes of data into a set of > registers, perform arithmetic on them, and depending on the result, > put the results back somewhere else or not, in a single assembler > opcode in a single cycle... and she feels that no contemporary > high-level language can usefully express such operations. > > I suppose APL might come closest, but it's hardly mainstream. No reason why it couldn't be. It's the same age as C, so why not? :-) > I find it an interesting thought that once the only way to get more > performance will soon be to switch to radically different processor > architectures that always work in ways very loosely comparable to MMX > or Altivec (and their descendants), and write new programs in new > languages on new OSes that can exploit deep hardware parallelism. My favorite "radically different" processing concept is by Martin Rem, in his thesis "Associons and the closure statement" from 1976 (http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra1/PRF2B/7606837.pdf). I'd love to see that implemented. He certainly gave no clue on how that could be done, and I haven't reached any clue either. Then there's Pinatubo (2016: https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~jzhao/files/Pinatubo-dac2016.pdf) which seems related to William Shooman's "orthogonal computer (from 1961; it was sold by Sanders Associates for a while). paul From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 6 10:36:00 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 17:36:00 +0200 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <0B8D8846-3CF8-40AB-9D08-29F346B16F2C@comcast.net> References: <024a01d7413a$14469e80$3cd3db80$@emailtoilet.com> <38c8a9c7-fe33-6f1e-e323-e625d5d53a1a@sydex.com> <20210505110958.GA17833@lonesome.com> <2f7c87e0-1c0b-5358-f521-72ef27a6d034@gmail.com> <0B8D8846-3CF8-40AB-9D08-29F346B16F2C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 16:13, Paul Koning wrote: > > I suppose APL might come closest, but it's hardly mainstream. > > No reason why it couldn't be. It's the same age as C, so why not? :-) I think because for lesser minds, such as mine, it's line noise. A friend of mine, a Perl guru, studied A-Plus for a while. (Morgan Stanley's in-house APL dialect.) He said to me that "when I came back to Perl, I found it irritatingly verbose..." and then was immediately deeply shocked at the thought. I seriously think this is why Lisp didn't go mainstream. For a certain type of human mind, it's wonderful and clear and expressive, but for most of us, it's just a step too far. Ditto Forth, ditto Postscript, etc. Plain old algebraic infix notation has thrived for half a millennium because it's easily assimilated and comprehended, and many arguably better notations just are not. The importance of being easy, as opposed to being clear, or unambiguous, or expressive, etc., is widely underestimated. > My favorite "radically different" processing concept is by Martin Rem, in his thesis "Associons and the closure statement" from 1976 (http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra1/PRF2B/7606837.pdf). I'd love to see that implemented. He certainly gave no clue on how that could be done, and I haven't reached any clue either. > > Then there's Pinatubo (2016: https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~jzhao/files/Pinatubo-dac2016.pdf) which seems related to William Shooman's "orthogonal computer (from 1961; it was sold by Sanders Associates for a while). Ooh, great. Thank you, I will read up on these. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From athornton at gmail.com Thu May 6 16:53:02 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 14:53:02 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Liam Proven > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Motor generator > > I think because for lesser minds, such as mine, [APL is] line noise. > > A friend of mine, a Perl guru, studied A-Plus for a while. (Morgan > Stanley's in-house APL dialect.) He said to me that "when I came back > to Perl, I found it irritatingly verbose..." and then was immediately > deeply shocked at the thought. > > I seriously think this is why Lisp didn't go mainstream. For a certain > type of human mind, it's wonderful and clear and expressive, but for > most of us, it's just a step too far. > > Ditto Forth, ditto Postscript, etc. > > Plain old algebraic infix notation has thrived for half a millennium > because it's easily assimilated and comprehended, and many arguably > better notations just are not. > > The importance of being easy, as opposed to being clear, or > unambiguous, or expressive, etc., is widely underestimated. > > Yes, that. C is a great assembly language preprocessor for a PDP-11. The PDP-11 is a beautiful, intelligible architecture, where things happen one at a time in sequence. This is easy to think about. Unfortunately it's got very little to do with the way that modern high-performance silicon gets stuff done. (Aside: it's also weird that the one-thing-at-a-time sequencing is the thing that feels logical and intuitive to us since it is absolutely not how our brains work.) I would argue that Forth and Postscript are hard to understand for a different reason than APL: APL is inherently vectorized, and requires, more or less, that you treat matrices as single entities. Not many people's brains work that way. It's hard enough to learn to treat complex numbers as single entities. Forth and Postscript require you to keep a really deep stack in your brain to understand the code, and people aren't really very good at doing that for more than three or four items (much fewer than 7 +/- 2). Both of these are much more difficult for most people to work with and reason about than something imperative and infix-based. The fundamental problem is the impedance mismatch between the way most people think (which would at the very least take a radical reframing of curricula to change, and might not work anyway: look at the failure of the New Math, which was indeed very elegant, taught mathematics from first principles as set theory, and was not at all geared to the way young children _actually learn things_) and where we can continue to squeeze performance out of silicon. This is really not tractable. I think our best hope is to make the silicon really good at generating and figuring out graphs so it can dispatch lots of pieces of what feels like a sequential problem in parallel and come out with the same answer as you would have gotten doing it the naive one-step-at-a-time way. But we've already done that, and, yeah, it mostly works, but the abstraction is leaky and then you get Meltdown and Spectre. I don't have any answers other than "move to Montana, drop off the grid, and raise dental floss." Adam From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 6 19:43:30 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 20:43:30 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 6, 2021, at 5:53 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > Yes, that. C is a great assembly language preprocessor for a PDP-11. The > PDP-11 is a beautiful, intelligible architecture, where things happen one > at a time in sequence. This is easy to think about. Unfortunately it's > got very little to do with the way that modern high-performance silicon > gets stuff done. Sort of. But while a lot of things happen in parallel, out of order, speculatively, etc., the programming model exposed by the hardware still is the C sequential model. A whole lot of logic is needed to create that appearance, and in fact you can see that all the way back in the CDC 6600 "scoreboard" and "stunt box". Some processors occasionally relax the software-visible order, which tends to cause bugs, create marketing issues, or both -- Alpha comes to mind as an example. > (Aside: it's also weird that the one-thing-at-a-time sequencing is the > thing that feels logical and intuitive to us since it is absolutely not how > our brains work.) > > I would argue that Forth and Postscript are hard to understand for a > different reason than APL: APL is inherently vectorized, and requires, more > or less, that you treat matrices as single entities. Not many people's > brains work that way. I wonder. Consider object oriented programming, where objects that have all manner of stuff inside are treated as a unit and have operations performed on them. Agreed on stack languages. While there's nothing inherently hard about them, they don't fit the way we're taught to handle formulas all the way from grade one. In fact, while APL is infix, it's right-associative, which is a definite problem. It's unfortunate Iverson didn't fix the assignment operator problem the way POP-2 did, by pointing it to the right so all operators could be left-associative. If Martin Rem's associons ever take off (see my previous email) that will require a similar mental process as the one for APL of treating composite data as single entities. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu May 6 21:35:14 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 22:35:14 -0400 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> > Sort of. But while a lot of things happen in parallel, out of order, speculatively, etc., the programming model exposed by the hardware still is the C sequential model. A whole lot of logic is needed to create that appearance, and in fact you can see that all the way back in the CDC 6600 "scoreboard" and "stunt box". Some processors occasionally relax the software-visible order, which tends to cause bugs, create marketing issues, or both -- Alpha comes to mind as an example. Interesting to see this. I've been reading a lot recently about the Jupiter/Dolphin project and the more I read the more I understand why it just could not be done. At the time (and to an extent even now) the only way to really improve a system's performance was to pipeline the processor, and the Pdp10 instruction set just wasn't easy to do that with. They had a great concept: An Instruction fetch/decode system (IBOX), an execution engine (EBOX), the obligitory vector processor or FPU (HBOX) and of course the memory system (MBOX). Break the process up into steps and have the parts all work in parallel to boost performance. Unfortunately they started to find way too many cases where an indirect instruction would be fetched that would be based on the AC, which was being changed by another instruction in the EBOX. This would blow out all the prefetched work in the pipe, forcing the IBOX to do a costly reload. Likewise branch prediction couldn't be done well because most branches and skips depended on the value in the AC which was once again usually being modified in the EBOX down the pipe. As soon as it was modified the pipe had to be flushed and reloaded. It looks like they tried to put that logic into the IBOX to catch these issues, but that resulted in a flat processor that wasn't going to benefit from any parallelism, an endless series of bugs, and an IBOX that was pretty much running with its own EBOX. It got worse when they realized that the Extended memory segments in the 2060 architecture totally wrecked the concept of an instruction decoder/execution box. There were just too many places where an indirect instruction to another section which was then based on the AC's would result in Ibox tossing the queue and invalidating the translation buffers. Increasing the translation buffer helped (I think that's one of the things they did on the final 2065 to make it faster) but they couldn't make that big and fast enough. I guess an indirect jump instruction based on comparing the AC to an indirect address pointing to an extended segment would be enough to make any decoder just cry. It's sad to read, you can almost see then realizing it was doomed. The Foonly F1 was a screamer, but it was basically the KA10 instruction set and couldn't run extended memory segments like the 2060. And when they tried to do the same thing with the F4 it came out to be a little slower than a 2060. I used to think they put only one extended segment in the 2020 to cripple the box, but maybe they started running into the same problem and ran out of microcode space to try and address it. Couple this with the fact that much of the 20 series programs were built in assembler (and why not, it was an amazing thing to program) and you just had too many programs with cool bespoke code that would totally trash a pipeline. Fixing compilers to order instructions properly could have worked, but people just wrote in assembler it wasn't going to happen and they weren't about to re-code their app to please the new scheduler God. The VAX instruction set was a lot less beautiful, but could be pipelined easier especially with the dedicated MMU so they took the people and pipelined the hell out of the 780 resulting in the nifty 8600/8650 and later the 8800's. Dec learned their lesson when they built Alpha, and even Intel realized that their instruction set needed to be pipelined for the Pentium Pro and above processors. Ah well. I don't think it was evil marketing or VAX monsters that killed the KC10, it was simply the fact that the amazing instruction set couldn't be pipelined to make it more efficient for hardware and the memory management system wasn't as efficient as the pdp11/Vax MMU concept. From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 6 21:47:24 2021 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 21:47:24 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> References: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> Message-ID: <61FF9208-5665-4257-BA4A-3ADD9180C206@pobox.com> > On May 5, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 5/5/21 5:18 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> An earlier message commented on the whine from power converters. I >> don't know how common this practice was, but at the University of >> Illinois PLATO system which had a pair of 6500 systems, the >> motor-generator was located near the elevator machinery in a corner >> of the building, far from the computer room. Yes, it was noisy, but >> no one spent any time in that location. The computer room was -- by >> mainframe standards certainly -- rather quiet. Of course it helps to >> have liquid cooling, so there weren't many noisy fans to deal with. > > It was the "white noise" from the vacuum pumps in the tape drive banks > that drove me nuts after a few hours. After 8 hours or so, I sometimes > found my hands shaking. Of course this facility had a very large > machine floor with several full-sized installations. Eventually, > management provided ear protection. > > As far as any "whine"--I vaguely recall hearing a high-pitched whine if > I put my ear close to the power adjustment panel in a CDC Cyber--but it > was barely audible. > > As far as the MG sets themselves, I never went there--any noise at > SVLOPE was drowned out by the fans in the cooling tower. I don't recall > where the power equipment at ARHOPS was located. > > --Chuck > We had a room on the ground floor at ETA that housed an MG set that ran the CY205 (and maybe the 835 and 875 too) in the basement. They had isolated the MG from the mounting pretty well in addition to sound proofing the room because with door closed, you couldn?t really tell it was in there? which was nice because the room was right off the main entry hallway :-) Chris From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 6 22:37:34 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 20:37:34 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <61FF9208-5665-4257-BA4A-3ADD9180C206@pobox.com> References: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> <61FF9208-5665-4257-BA4A-3ADD9180C206@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/21 7:47 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > We had a room on the ground floor at ETA that housed an MG set that > ran the CY205 (and maybe the 835 and 875 too) in the basement. They > had isolated the MG from the mounting pretty well in addition to > sound proofing the room because with door closed, you couldn?t really > tell it was in there? which was nice because the room was right off > the main entry hallway :-) About all I recall from the few times that I visited the ETA facility were the chairs upholstered in bright primary colors. --Chuck From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri May 7 01:06:44 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 23:06:44 -0700 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> References: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Chris - great and interesting overview. Do you have a reading list for more details? Thanks! Lee Courtney On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:35 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > Sort of. But while a lot of things happen in parallel, out of order, > speculatively, etc., the programming model exposed by the hardware still is > the C sequential model. A whole lot of logic is needed to create that > appearance, and in fact you can see that all the way back in the CDC 6600 > "scoreboard" and "stunt box". Some processors occasionally relax the > software-visible order, which tends to cause bugs, create marketing issues, > or both -- Alpha comes to mind as an example. > > Interesting to see this. > > I've been reading a lot recently about the Jupiter/Dolphin project and > the more I read the more I understand why it just could not be done. At > the time (and to an extent even now) the only way to really improve a > system's performance was to pipeline the processor, and the Pdp10 > instruction set just wasn't easy to do that with. > > They had a great concept: An Instruction fetch/decode system (IBOX), an > execution engine (EBOX), the obligitory vector processor or FPU (HBOX) > and of course the memory system (MBOX). Break the process up into steps > and have the parts all work in parallel to boost performance. > > Unfortunately they started to find way too many cases where an indirect > instruction would be fetched that would be based on the AC, which was > being changed by another instruction in the EBOX. This would blow out > all the prefetched work in the pipe, forcing the IBOX to do a costly > reload. > > Likewise branch prediction couldn't be done well because most branches > and skips depended on the value in the AC which was once again usually > being modified in the EBOX down the pipe. As soon as it was modified the > pipe had to be flushed and reloaded. It looks like they tried to put > that logic into the IBOX to catch these issues, but that resulted in a > flat processor that wasn't going to benefit from any parallelism, an > endless series of bugs, and an IBOX that was pretty much running with > its own EBOX. > > It got worse when they realized that the Extended memory segments in the > 2060 architecture totally wrecked the concept of an instruction > decoder/execution box. There were just too many places where an indirect > instruction to another section which was then based on the AC's would > result in Ibox tossing the queue and invalidating the translation > buffers. Increasing the translation buffer helped (I think that's one of > the things they did on the final 2065 to make it faster) but they > couldn't make that big and fast enough. I guess an indirect jump > instruction based on comparing the AC to an indirect address pointing to > an extended segment would be enough to make any decoder just cry. > > It's sad to read, you can almost see then realizing it was doomed. The > Foonly F1 was a screamer, but it was basically the KA10 instruction set > and couldn't run extended memory segments like the 2060. And when they > tried to do the same thing with the F4 it came out to be a little slower > than a 2060. I used to think they put only one extended segment in the > 2020 to cripple the box, but maybe they started running into the same > problem and ran out of microcode space to try and address it. > > Couple this with the fact that much of the 20 series programs were built > in assembler (and why not, it was an amazing thing to program) and you > just had too many programs with cool bespoke code that would totally > trash a pipeline. Fixing compilers to order instructions properly could > have worked, but people just wrote in assembler it wasn't going to > happen and they weren't about to re-code their app to please the new > scheduler God. > > The VAX instruction set was a lot less beautiful, but could be pipelined > easier especially with the dedicated MMU so they took the people and > pipelined the hell out of the 780 resulting in the nifty 8600/8650 and > later the 8800's. Dec learned their lesson when they built Alpha, and > even Intel realized that their instruction set needed to be pipelined > for the Pentium Pro and above processors. > > Ah well. I don't think it was evil marketing or VAX monsters that killed > the KC10, it was simply the fact that the amazing instruction set > couldn't be pipelined to make it more efficient for hardware and the > memory management system wasn't as efficient as the pdp11/Vax MMU concept. > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From athornton at gmail.com Thu May 6 18:25:00 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 16:25:00 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 80, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 15:18:04 +0200 > From: Liam Proven > To: Jay Jaeger , "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: That VAXStation4000vlc 3W3 video connector > Message-ID: > < > CAMTenCGKYnC++cT2gfpCvvntTjv-FrvivhuoXLcjWDesf2WC9w at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Wed, 5 May 2021 at 17:59, Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: > > > I, for one, did find this helpful - one could make one of these up to > > test before possibly forking over the funds to build one properly. > > If anyone were up to making a small batch of these, I'd be happy to > pay for a few, plus shipping etc. I have 3 ? 4000VLCs and only 1 > monitor for 'em, and I hope to get them running again sometime... > > > I'd buy at least one, seeing as how it was my original question, and whatever I end up stitching together will be really gross. If whoever is doing it would ALSO do the much simpler DEC 15-pin to VGA adapter, I'd probably buy some of those too. Adam From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 7 01:34:35 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 23:34:35 -0700 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> References: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <98b60fa4-4607-4f8a-d158-75354231b191@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/21 7:35 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Ah well. I don't think it was evil marketing or VAX monsters that killed the KC10, it was simply the fact that the amazing instruction set > couldn't be pipelined to make it more efficient for hardware and the memory management system wasn't as efficient as the pdp11/Vax MMU concept. > I've never found any documentation on what System Concepts did to make faster systems. Just crank up the clock speed? DEC was already using ECL. It was pretty sad reading all of the memos when I first dug them out of the DEC corporate archive at CHM. I forget now if the architects for Jupiter were originally from IBM and got hired into DEC. Kotok wanted to go in a completely different direction with 36 bit systems. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri May 7 04:36:28 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 02:36:28 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <6091E0B7.6030206@pico-systems.com> References: <6091E0B7.6030206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1F617168-2D93-4426-85D5-F192C0E6DAB3@gmail.com> The IBM 7090 used a motor generator, IBM model 7618 apparently http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/7090-PowerSupplyControl&Distribution-223-6904.pdf Marc > On May 4, 2021, at 5:03 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 05/04/2021 06:06 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: >> In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to remember something about S/360 >> machines using a motor generator. >> If I am right was this to create a stable power source at a certain >> frequency or voltage? > Nope. I know the 360/50 and 360/65 used a "converter-inverter" that converted 208 3-phase > to about 280 V DC, then inverted it with a 4-SCR inverter feeding a resonant transformer to > create 120 V 2.5 KHz regulated single-phase sine wave power. All the critical loads in the CPU ran off this power. Notably, the I/O power sequencer and console lamps power supply did not run off this power. The converter-inverter made an absolutely HORRIBLE whine that could be heard 20+ feet from the back of the CPU even in a very noisy machine room. > > The only "360" machine I know of that used 415 Hz was the Model 195, although I can guess that > the 360/85 used 415 Hz also, as it was essentially the prototype of the 370/165. > > The 370/145 used an internal motor/generator set in the back of the CPU cabinet to produce 120 V 415 Hz 3-phase power. Larger 370's generally were provided with UPS's instead of M/G sets to create the 415 Hz power. > > Also, the 709X series ran off 400 Hz from a motor/generator set. > > The 360/50 and /65, at least, were pretty sensitive to noise and short dropouts in the mains supply. > The 370's with the MG sets rode through pretty severe power dips with no effect at all, until the disk drives and tape drives went offline. > > Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri May 7 04:55:24 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 05:55:24 -0400 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: References: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <5f47e8ed-dbf5-0238-e3a4-8897e00a0d4c@alembic.crystel.com> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp10/ Has a *lot* of stuff. As I start cranking up my brain to drag BLT out of the shed and start working on it I'm finding this stuff to be a serious refresher. C On 5/7/2021 2:06 AM, Lee Courtney wrote: > Chris - great and interesting overview. Do you have a reading list for > more details? Thanks! > > Lee Courtney > > On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:35 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > Sort of.? But while a lot of things happen in parallel, out of > order, speculatively, etc., the programming model exposed by the > hardware still is the C sequential model.? A whole lot of logic is > needed to create that appearance, and in fact you can see that all > the way back in the CDC 6600 "scoreboard" and "stunt box".? Some > processors occasionally relax the software-visible order, which > tends to cause bugs, create marketing issues, or both -- Alpha > comes to mind as an example. > > Interesting to see this. > > I've been reading a lot recently about the Jupiter/Dolphin project > and > the more I read the more I understand why it just could not be > done. At > the time (and to an extent even now) the only way to really improve a > system's performance was to pipeline the processor, and the Pdp10 > instruction set just wasn't easy to do that with. > > They had a great concept: An Instruction fetch/decode system > (IBOX), an > execution engine (EBOX), the obligitory vector processor or FPU > (HBOX) > and of course the memory system (MBOX). Break the process up into > steps > and have the parts all work in parallel to boost performance. > > Unfortunately they started to find way too many cases where an > indirect > instruction would be fetched that would be based on the AC, which was > being changed by another instruction in the EBOX. This would blow out > all the prefetched work in the pipe, forcing the IBOX to do a costly > reload. > > Likewise branch prediction couldn't be done well because most > branches > and skips depended on the value in the AC which was once again > usually > being modified in the EBOX down the pipe. As soon as it was > modified the > pipe had to be flushed and reloaded. It looks like they tried to put > that logic into the IBOX to catch these issues, but that resulted > in a > flat processor that wasn't going to benefit from any parallelism, an > endless series of bugs, and an IBOX that was pretty much running with > its own EBOX. > > It got worse when they realized that the Extended memory segments > in the > 2060 architecture totally wrecked the concept of an instruction > decoder/execution box. There were just too many places where an > indirect > instruction to another section which was then based on the AC's would > result in Ibox tossing the queue and invalidating the translation > buffers. Increasing the translation buffer helped (I think that's > one of > the things they did on the final 2065 to make it faster) but they > couldn't make that big and fast enough. I guess an indirect jump > instruction based on comparing the AC to an indirect address > pointing to > an extended segment would be enough to make any decoder just cry. > > It's sad to read, you can almost see then realizing it was doomed. > The > Foonly F1 was a screamer, but it was basically the KA10 > instruction set > and couldn't run extended memory segments like the 2060. And when > they > tried to do the same thing with the F4 it came out to be a little > slower > than a 2060. I used to think they put only one extended segment in > the > 2020 to cripple the box, but maybe they started running into the same > problem and ran out of microcode space to try and address it. > > Couple this with the fact that much of the 20 series programs were > built > in assembler (and why not, it was an amazing thing to program) and > you > just had too many programs with cool bespoke code that would totally > trash a pipeline. Fixing compilers to order instructions properly > could > have worked, but people just wrote in assembler it wasn't going to > happen and they weren't about to re-code their app to please the new > scheduler God. > > The VAX instruction set was a lot less beautiful, but could be > pipelined > easier especially with the dedicated MMU so they took the people and > pipelined the hell out of the 780 resulting in the nifty 8600/8650 > and > later the 8800's. Dec learned their lesson when they built Alpha, and > even Intel realized that their instruction set needed to be pipelined > for the Pentium Pro and above processors. > > Ah well. I don't think it was evil marketing or VAX monsters that > killed > the KC10, it was simply the fact that the amazing instruction set > couldn't be pipelined to make it more efficient for hardware and the > memory management system wasn't as efficient as the pdp11/Vax MMU > concept. > > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 7 07:10:03 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 08:10:03 -0400 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <98b60fa4-4607-4f8a-d158-75354231b191@bitsavers.org> References: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> <98b60fa4-4607-4f8a-d158-75354231b191@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9D8BADA7-B597-42E1-99C8-4CC751F838C5@comcast.net> > On May 7, 2021, at 2:34 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/6/21 7:35 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Ah well. I don't think it was evil marketing or VAX monsters that killed the KC10, it was simply the fact that the amazing instruction set couldn't be pipelined to make it more efficient for hardware and the memory management system wasn't as efficient as the pdp11/Vax MMU concept. > > I've never found any documentation on what System Concepts did to make faster systems. Just crank up the clock speed? > DEC was already using ECL. Speaking of ECL: DEC did some amazing work with ECL VLSI in the early 1990s. There was an R&D project called "BIPS" (for "billion instructions per second") -- which aimed to build a single-chip processor that would run at a gigahertz. That was way faster than the clock speeds of the time, and the notion was that to do this you needed to use ECL logic. But there wasn't any large scale integration with ECL, so DEC set out to create that. Part of the problem was that each ECL fab had its own design rules, and those fabs were a shaky business (not enough volume). That meant creating a CAD system which could adjust the design to a new set of design rules quickly. They built an interesting hybrid system where you could write the design partly as geometries (for things like memory cells), partly as transistors, partly as gates, and partly as C code. I remember an example, where they had a transistor schematic for a single-bit latch, and then wrapped it in a loop: "for (i=0; i < 64; i++) { }". The magic was that (apart from the few bits of explicit geometry-level design) it was all parameterized, so they could regenerate the actual wafer geometry overnight for a new fab. The CAD system also allowed extracting a behavioral model from the design. The original plan, if I remember right, was to build an Alpha with this technology. That morphed into building a MIPS, and I think they might have gotten that to work. Another part of the puzzle was figuring out how to feed 100 watts of power to a chip, and get rid of that amount of heat, neither of which were anywhere close to what was done at the time. I still have some of the tech reports that describe that piece (and I contributed a wild idea -- which unfortunately DEC didn't get around to patenting before the project was shut down). paul From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 7 07:53:58 2021 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 07:53:58 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: References: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> <61FF9208-5665-4257-BA4A-3ADD9180C206@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20210507125358.GY20937@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (05/06/2021 at 08:37PM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/6/21 7:47 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > We had a room on the ground floor at ETA that housed an MG set that > > ran the CY205 (and maybe the 835 and 875 too) in the basement. They > > had isolated the MG from the mounting pretty well in addition to > > sound proofing the room because with door closed, you couldn?t really > > tell it was in there? which was nice because the room was right off > > the main entry hallway :-) > > About all I recall from the few times that I visited the ETA facility > were the chairs upholstered in bright primary colors. The HQ building (nee BTC) was built just a year before ETA started, so 1982 or so. But somehow it ended up with very 70s-ish decor, even if it was all new 70s-ish decor. It's possible they wanted all the guys that moved down from ARHOPS and ADL to still feel at home... cje -- Chris Elmquist From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Fri May 7 08:14:46 2021 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?utf-8?Q?St=C3=BCber?=) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 15:14:46 +0200 Subject: Lecture: Forth: from the minicomputer to the microcontroller, 2021-05-08, 19:00 References: <20210507131446.GF20747.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: <20210507131446.GF20747@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Hi all, you're invited to the Update computer club[0] public lecture series "Updateringar"[1]! Update is a Swedish computer club founded in 1983 whose members tinker with all kinds of computers, from Raspberry Pi to PDP-12. The club has a big collection of historic computers. In this lecture series we'll talk about everything related to computers: Historic and modern computers, operating systems, programming, hardware projects, creating art with computers, building a computer museum, and more. When: 2021-05-08, 19:00 CEST Where: https://bbb.cryptoparty.se/b/upd-0mo-m2u-aq8 Forth: from the minicomputer to the microcontroller Forth is an almost esoteric programming language in the eyes of most modern programmers, but still worth learning if only to expand your horizon. On modern microcontrollers the strengths that made Forth stand out in on 1970s minicomputers are relevant once again: fast enough execution, low worst case latency, full control over the system, powerful metaprogramming, and interactive development. This presentation will show how to overcome the initially near vertical learning curve and get the Mecrisp Stellaris Forth system running on a STM32 microcontroller without breaking the bank. Prior exposure to microcontrollers or assembler is helpful, but not required. Once the Forth system is running we will use it to explore either the hardware it's running on or its implementation and available implementation tradeoffs. Jan Bramkamp (CCCHB) The lecture is free and open to everyone. Upcoming: 2021-06-12, 19:00: How to start and run a computer museum. Thiemo Eddiks (Oldenburger Computer-Museum) Hope to see you there, Anke P.S.: I hope this is not too offtopic, but I assume there are people interested in Forth here. [0] http://www.update.uu.se/index_eng.html [1] https://www.update.uu.se/wiki/doku.php/projekt:updateringar From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 7 10:45:16 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 May 2021 10:45:16 -0500 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <9D8BADA7-B597-42E1-99C8-4CC751F838C5@comcast.net> References: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> <98b60fa4-4607-4f8a-d158-75354231b191@bitsavers.org> <9D8BADA7-B597-42E1-99C8-4CC751F838C5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6095608C.5040309@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2021 07:10 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > They built an interesting hybrid system where you could > write the design partly as geometries (for things like > memory cells), partly as transistors, partly as gates, and > partly as C code. I remember an example, where they had a > transistor schematic for a single-bit latch, and then > wrapped it in a loop: "for (i=0; i < 64; i++) { > }". The magic was that (apart from the few > bits of explicit geometry-level design) it was all > parameterized, so they could regenerate the actual wafer > geometry overnight for a new fab. That sounds a lot like VHDL, which can be used to synthesize chip layout. > Another part of the puzzle was figuring out how to feed > 100 watts of power to a chip, and get rid of that amount > of heat, neither of which were anywhere close to what was > done at the time. I still have some of the tech reports > that describe that piece (and I contributed a wild idea -- > which unfortunately DEC didn't get around to patenting > before the project was shut down). paul IBM was tinkering with high density ECL system construction from 1965 or so, as a follow-on to the System 360. They had several aborted projects, FS (Future System) and ACS (Advanced Computer System) that were very advanced supercomputers. The technology eventually came out as the 309x series, with several hundred MSI ECL chips on a ceramic interconnect substrate, water-cooled with a big plate with copper "nails" that pressed down on the back of the ICs. That was the 308x system, introduced in 1984. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 11:03:47 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 09:03:47 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <20210507125358.GY20937@n0jcf.net> References: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> <61FF9208-5665-4257-BA4A-3ADD9180C206@pobox.com> <20210507125358.GY20937@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <8f34f51b-3499-877b-e3d5-67342a5ffef8@sydex.com> On 5/7/21 5:53 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > The HQ building (nee BTC) was built just a year before ETA started, > so 1982 or so. But somehow it ended up with very 70s-ish decor, even > if it was all new 70s-ish decor. It's possible they wanted all the guys > that moved down from ARHOPS and ADL to still feel at home... Oh, yeah, brightly painted exposed pipes, too. Probably inspired by the 1970's Centre Pompidou in Paris. CDC native decor was the usual 60's drab. The ubiquitous brwon vinyl-and-fabric Steelcase chairs, for example. Another hangover, thankfully abandoned, was the OCR-looking typeface on office typewriters. I hated the look of that so much that I managed to snag an IBM Model B Executive with proportional spacing when a GM's secretary moved to a Selectric. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 7 11:29:08 2021 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 11:29:08 -0500 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <8f34f51b-3499-877b-e3d5-67342a5ffef8@sydex.com> References: <6ced1056-3382-0fe7-4627-00c58ff5bc09@sydex.com> <61FF9208-5665-4257-BA4A-3ADD9180C206@pobox.com> <20210507125358.GY20937@n0jcf.net> <8f34f51b-3499-877b-e3d5-67342a5ffef8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20210507162908.GD20937@n0jcf.net> On Friday (05/07/2021 at 09:03AM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5/7/21 5:53 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > The HQ building (nee BTC) was built just a year before ETA started, > > so 1982 or so. But somehow it ended up with very 70s-ish decor, even > > if it was all new 70s-ish decor. It's possible they wanted all the guys > > that moved down from ARHOPS and ADL to still feel at home... > > Oh, yeah, brightly painted exposed pipes, too. Probably inspired by the > 1970's Centre Pompidou in Paris. > > CDC native decor was the usual 60's drab. The ubiquitous brwon > vinyl-and-fabric Steelcase chairs, for example. Another hangover, > thankfully abandoned, was the OCR-looking typeface on office typewriters. Yup. There were a fair number of the gun-metal grey desks that looked like they had come back from the Korean war or something that some of the guys brought from ADL to ETA. Wanted to keep their own desk! > > I hated the look of that so much that I managed to snag an IBM Model B > Executive with proportional spacing when a GM's secretary moved to a > Selectric. Ha. That really was a CDC trademark in all of their documentation. I must have grown up on the wrong side of the tracks because I remember thinking it was kind of cool. I even went so far as to seek out an OCR type wheel for my Diablo printer so that I could print listings at home that looked like the ones I did at work :-) What can I say? I was young and impressionable then... LOL. cje -- Chris Elmquist From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 7 11:29:29 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 12:29:29 -0400 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <6095608C.5040309@pico-systems.com> References: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> <98b60fa4-4607-4f8a-d158-75354231b191@bitsavers.org> <9D8BADA7-B597-42E1-99C8-4CC751F838C5@comcast.net> <6095608C.5040309@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <46188AF8-96D8-4FFF-AD8D-322E5BDB4F56@comcast.net> > On May 7, 2021, at 11:45 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 05/07/2021 07:10 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> They built an interesting hybrid system where you could write the design partly as geometries (for things like memory cells), partly as transistors, partly as gates, and partly as C code. I remember an example, where they had a transistor schematic for a single-bit latch, and then wrapped it in a loop: "for (i=0; i < 64; i++) { }". The magic was that (apart from the few bits of explicit geometry-level design) it was all parameterized, so they could regenerate the actual wafer geometry overnight for a new fab. > That sounds a lot like VHDL, which can be used to synthesize chip layout. It's a bit different. In VHDL you can do gate level or behavioral modeling, but the idea of wrapping a picture in a "for" loop was something I haven't seen anywhere else. Also, this was 30 years ago, roughly, when chip design technology was a whole lot more limited. >> Another part of the puzzle was figuring out how to feed 100 watts of power to a chip, and get rid of that amount of heat, neither of which were anywhere close to what was done at the time. I still have some of the tech reports that describe that piece (and I contributed a wild idea -- which unfortunately DEC didn't get around to patenting before the project was shut down). paul > IBM was tinkering with high density ECL system construction from 1965 or so, as a follow-on to the System 360. They had several aborted projects, FS (Future System) and ACS (Advanced Computer System) that were very advanced supercomputers. The technology eventually came out as the > 309x series, with several hundred MSI ECL chips on a ceramic interconnect substrate, water-cooled > with a big plate with copper "nails" that pressed down on the back of the ICs. That was the 308x system, introduced in 1984. The packaging work DEC did included building a heat pipe package that could handle well over 100 watts with air cooling, and also an investigation of the current carrying limits of chip bond wires. It turned out gold wires have really good properties: they handle a whole lot of current and they have a very clear upper limit; stay even a little below that limit and the wires last basically forever. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 7 11:38:25 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 09:38:25 -0700 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <9D8BADA7-B597-42E1-99C8-4CC751F838C5@comcast.net> References: <1e141a7f-16b4-9386-8ebf-7ef31d71cdb2@alembic.crystel.com> <98b60fa4-4607-4f8a-d158-75354231b191@bitsavers.org> <9D8BADA7-B597-42E1-99C8-4CC751F838C5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4072f877-2470-5821-5000-cdeaad3fba6d@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/21 5:10 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Speaking of ECL: DEC did some amazing work with ECL VLSI in the early 1990s. There was an R&D project called "BIPS" (for "billion instructions per second") -- which aimed to build a single-chip processor that would run at a gigahertz. That was way faster than the clock speeds of the time, and the notion was that to do this you needed to use ECL logic. IBM ran into the same problem in the 60's. The technology they developed with Moto was used by Amdahl in his clones. "biCMOS" was tried in the 90's. I worked with Exponential Technology on their 500MHz PowerPC. The problem with it was the on-chip caches were too small so the CPU spent most of its time stalled. From dick.curtis at ymail.com Fri May 7 12:36:24 2021 From: dick.curtis at ymail.com (Richard Curtis) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:36:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40676309.960929.1620408984652@mail.yahoo.com> > From: Paul Koning > Message-ID: <9D8BADA7-B597-42E1-99C8-4CC751F838C5 at comcast.net> > Another part of the puzzle was figuring out how to feed 100 watts of power to a chip,?> and get rid of that amount of heat, neither of which were anywhere close to what was > done at the time.? I still have some of the tech reports that describe that piece (and I?>contributed a wild idea -- which unfortunately DEC didn't get around to patenting?>before the project was shut down). Back in the mid-90s, there was an outfit in Britain which made some laptops using Alpha processors.? There was a rumor inside DECin the same time-frame about DEC engineers prototyping an Alpha-based laptop (which never made it to market). The rumor included the internal code-name... "BURNS". Dick From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 13:13:49 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 11:13:49 -0700 Subject: Motor generator In-Reply-To: <1F617168-2D93-4426-85D5-F192C0E6DAB3@gmail.com> References: <6091E0B7.6030206@pico-systems.com> <1F617168-2D93-4426-85D5-F192C0E6DAB3@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/7/21 2:36 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > The IBM 7090 used a motor generator, IBM model 7618 apparently > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/7090-PowerSupplyControl&Distribution-223-6904.pdf I mentioned that about a dozen posts back: The 7090 certainly used MG sets. From the "Power Supply and Distribution Manual" (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ce/7090%20Power%20Supply%20Control%20and%20Distribution%20223-6904.pdf, page 5): "The IBM 7608, a power converter or motor-generator set which converts incoming 60-cycle three-phase (3?), 208v power to regulated 400-cycle 3? 208v power." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 7 13:20:00 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 12:20:00 -0600 Subject: Motor generator-audiofools In-Reply-To: <9AFD6EF8-FBC9-40DB-83B2-E8984687B492@kdbarto.org> References: <013201d74210$ff2b0b80$fd812280$@emailtoilet.com> <609342FC.3070100@pico-systems.com> <051e75fc-5cdd-ca01-1f2a-31c31cc99f99@charter.net> <9AFD6EF8-FBC9-40DB-83B2-E8984687B492@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: <15dc3b0c-59db-788d-8fa5-fe18df0d78e8@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/6/2021 8:00 AM, David Barto via cctalk wrote: > I don?t refer to them as Audio-phools. > > They are GESR?s. (pronounced guesser) > > Golden > Eared > Sonic > Reviewers > > They guess this sounds better than that, so it must be worth it. > > David > >> On May 5, 2021, at 6:31 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> I think a lot of the time audio-phools, if they will be honest with themselves, are really trying to recreate the stereo (or even HiFi) sounds of the 1960s because they have fond memories and like it better. THAT I have no problem with whatsoever. >> >> What gets annoying is when the phools try and convince others that this old gear somehow more accurately reproduces recordings or that the "fleecy" stuff referred to actually makes things better. Oh well. >> >> JRJ > Well I am a Audio-Fool. Like they say "A fool and his money.. ". Secret word of the day "ElectroStatic Speakers". I suspect 90% of the old sound is from the distortion of the speakers and the audio equipment clipping. I have had my audio system for the last few years, now to start upgrading to better computer, I have yet to find it. Some how a pie computer emulating a PDP 8 does not feel quite right. Ben. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 7 13:32:22 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 19:32:22 +0100 Subject: Motor generator-audiofools In-Reply-To: <15dc3b0c-59db-788d-8fa5-fe18df0d78e8@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <013201d74210$ff2b0b80$fd812280$@emailtoilet.com> <609342FC.3070100@pico-systems.com> <051e75fc-5cdd-ca01-1f2a-31c31cc99f99@charter.net> <9AFD6EF8-FBC9-40DB-83B2-E8984687B492@kdbarto.org> <15dc3b0c-59db-788d-8fa5-fe18df0d78e8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 7:20 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > > > Well I am a Audio-Fool. Like they say "A fool and his money.. ". > Secret word of the day "ElectroStatic Speakers". I do not consider that to be audiophoolery. The charateristics of a particular electrostatic speaker are measurable. They are also different in some respects to those of a moving coil cone speaker, no matter what cabinet it is used in (which of course makes a big difference). They will sound different to a movng coil speaker system, and if you prefer that sound then that's what you should listen to. Far too many people forget that the real purpose of your audio system is not to be technically perfect but to reproduce sounds that you enjoy listening to. It is to give pleasure. There is something of an interest in the UK (at least) in the cheap 1960s record players of the 'Dansette' type. Techically they are terrible. A cheap autochanger, a cystal or ceramic cartridge, a simple amplfier based round either an outpur pentode (1 stage) or if you are lucky a triode-pentode (2 stages) and a single small-ish speaker in a cabinet with no acoustical merit whatsoever. BUT... it's nostalgia. People remember listening to such players back in the day, perhaps dancing with a person they later married. Remembering that gives pleasure. Which as I said is the real reason for such a device n the first place. To me audiophoolery is things that can't be measured and can't make a difference to the sound (or if they do, then something is serously wrong with the design). Like special mains cables, when there are several hundred metres (at least) between the final substation transformer and the wall socket outlet. And if the amplifier is so sensitive to small fluctuations of the mains input then the PSU of said amplifier needs to be redesigned properly. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 7 13:36:14 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 12:36:14 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <984c7ac1-3565-b9dc-53a3-3c41c470dc8d@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/6/2021 6:43 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I wonder. Consider object oriented programming, where objects that have all manner of stuff inside are treated as a unit and have operations performed on them. > I don't buy the class model of OOP. Classes are LIKE each other not someting that can shared between them. If that was the case move X-windows to MS-windows would be just X->XWIN = convert(X->M$WIN) for screen display. > Agreed on stack languages. While there's nothing inherently hard about them, they don't fit the way we're taught to handle formulas all the way from grade one. In fact, while APL is infix, it's right-associative, which is a definite problem. It's unfortunate Iverson didn't fix the assignment operator problem the way POP-2 did, by pointing it to the right so all operators could be left-associative. > I think of variables and the stack nesting of variables. I find it confusing. Where are varibles for a=b+c. found. At what level can you find just who defined what with out reading the whole program.How many links must be checked to get your data. Ben. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 7 14:53:43 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 12:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <40676309.960929.1620408984652@mail.yahoo.com> from Richard Curtis via cctalk at "May 7, 21 05:36:24 pm" Message-ID: <202105071953.147JrhH518219152@floodgap.com> > Back in the mid-90s, there was an outfit in Britain which made some > laptops using Alpha processors. That was the Tadpole ALPHAbook. Not many of those got to the outside world. Been watching for one for over a decade. For a period of time it was the fastest laptop available and it was reportedly not overly unpleasant to use (my Tadpole Viper, on the other hand, *is* unpleasant to use). > There was a rumor inside DECin the same time-frame about DEC engineers > prototyping an Alpha-based laptop (which never made it to market). > The rumor included the internal code-name... "BURNS". I don't doubt it! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Famous, adj.: Conspicuously miserable. -- Ambrose Bierce ------------------ From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri May 7 16:14:08 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 15:14:08 -0600 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: <973343358.527087.1620228401783@email.ionos.com> References: <973343358.527087.1620228401783@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <8d630f27-cba1-9ed6-4e92-3bce29bf3c61@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> First, thank you to everyone who replied and gave me things to think about and learn from. On 5/5/21 9:26 AM, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: > Hope this helps. Yes, indeed, very much. Thankfully, your description happened to mesh with the weird way that my brain processes things and your message just clicked confirming what I was learning but still processing what other people had written. Thank you Will. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri May 7 16:59:08 2021 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 21:59:08 +0000 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will add that aircraft are one of the main users of 400 Hz. This is because weight is always an critical design consideration. So with smaller transformers, smaller capacitors, etc, you can save a LOT of weight on electronic devices in an aircraft. 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Andrew Back via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:26 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 400 Hz On 05/05/2021 16:07, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Were the higher frequencies used because it directly effected the > amount of time / duration in (fractions of) seconds between peaks of > rectified (but not yet smoothed) power? Haven't read the rest of the thread and so at the risk of being profoundly wrong... Benefit of 400Hz mains is that transformers can be much smaller. Think of switching power supplies that rectify to DC and then switch up into kHz, which are then able to use far smaller transformer cores than an old linear PSU. At least this is a key motivation with 115V/400Hz 3-phase aviation power AFAIK. By coincidence we've just built a big 28VDC power supply, so that we can run a vintage 400Hz aircraft rotary inverter, which will then be used to power up old mil surplus kit that wants this. A classic adventure in yak shaving. Anyway, here's the 28VDC bit. https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/constructing-a-high-current-28v-dc-power-supply Andrew From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri May 7 17:07:39 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 15:07:39 -0700 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: <202105071953.147JrhH518219152@floodgap.com> References: <202105071953.147JrhH518219152@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On May 7, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > >> Back in the mid-90s, there was an outfit in Britain which made some >> laptops using Alpha processors. > > That was the Tadpole ALPHAbook. Not many of those got to the outside world. > Been watching for one for over a decade. For a period of time it was the > fastest laptop available and it was reportedly not overly unpleasant to use > (my Tadpole Viper, on the other hand, *is* unpleasant to use). > >> There was a rumor inside DECin the same time-frame about DEC engineers >> prototyping an Alpha-based laptop (which never made it to market). >> The rumor included the internal code-name... "BURNS". > > I don't doubt it! I?ve had my eye?s out for one for more like 20+ years. I do have a Tadpole SparcBook 3GS (? something like that), that was a pretty cool system. These if I needed OpenVMS on a laptop, I?d simply run it via emulator or virtualization (not an option for Itanium). I gather that at least some development on OpenVMS 9.2 is being done on VM?s running on the developers laptops. I seem to recall that the Tadpole AlphaBook performance is roughly on par with the DEC Multia, which is to say, not very good. Though I don?t think I ever got OpenVMS running on my Multia. Zane From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 7 18:35:08 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 May 2021 18:35:08 -0500 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6095CEAC.2020704@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2021 04:59 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I will add that aircraft are one of the main users of 400 Hz. This is because weight is always an critical design consideration. So with smaller transformers, smaller capacitors, etc, you can save a LOT of weight on electronic devices in an aircraft. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Andrew Back via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:26 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 400 Hz > > On 05/05/2021 16:07, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> Were the higher frequencies used because it directly effected the >> amount of time / duration in (fractions of) seconds between peaks of >> rectified (but not yet smoothed) power? > Haven't read the rest of the thread and so at the risk of being profoundly wrong... Benefit of 400Hz mains is that transformers can be much smaller. Think of switching power supplies that rectify to DC and then switch up into kHz, which are then able to use far smaller transformer cores than an old linear PSU. At least this is a key motivation with 115V/400Hz 3-phase aviation power AFAIK. > > By coincidence we've just built a big 28VDC power supply, so that we can run a vintage 400Hz aircraft rotary inverter, which will then be used to power up old mil surplus kit that wants this. A classic adventure in yak shaving. Anyway, here's the 28VDC bit. > > https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/constructing-a-high-current-28v-dc-power-supply > > Andrew > Interestingly, a lot of other military gear also uses 400 Hz power for the same reasons. I tore down a Nike radar van a long time ago, everything ran off 400 Hz. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 18:55:52 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 16:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: <6095CEAC.2020704@pico-systems.com> References: <6095CEAC.2020704@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hmmm. If they ever use single phase, instead of 3 phase, . . . A4 (A above middle C) is nominally 440Hz, but not everybody agrees. NY Phil uses 442, Boston uses 441, and many argue for 432. But, 400 would be A-flat. With a constant A flat droning in the background, . . . From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri May 7 20:45:34 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 18:45:34 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS Message-ID: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for the VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have more than I thought). I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 20:56:40 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 18:56:40 -0700 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: <6095CEAC.2020704@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4124efc4-cee0-1567-b0a7-21da2ad277d0@sydex.com> On 5/7/21 4:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm.? If they ever use single phase, instead of 3 phase, . . . > > A4 (A above middle C) is nominally 440Hz, but not everybody agrees. > NY Phil uses 442, Boston uses 441, and many argue for 432. > > But, 400 would be A-flat.? With a constant A flat droning in the > background, . . . I used to play (tuba) just below a fluorescent fixture that buzzed at 120 Hz. Very annoying--a flat B-natural or a sharp B-flat. Messed with my head. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri May 7 21:11:41 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 22:11:41 -0400 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS In-Reply-To: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> References: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Zane...I had it three days ago but I cant find it at the moment. If you dont find it elsewhere bug me privately. I must.have accidentally taken it to my office and will have to check there Bill On Fri, May 7, 2021, 9:45 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for the > VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet > scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT > keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find > the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have > more than I thought). > > I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). > > Zane > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 8 12:00:19 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 May 2021 12:00:19 -0500 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: <6095CEAC.2020704@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6096C3A3.3060500@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2021 06:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm. If they ever use single phase, instead of 3 phase, > . . . > > A4 (A above middle C) is nominally 440Hz, but not > everybody agrees. > NY Phil uses 442, Boston uses 441, and many argue for 432. > > But, 400 would be A-flat. With a constant A flat droning > in the background, . . . Yes, large 400 Hz power systems can be QUITE irritating, especially with harmonics added. The whine from a huge 415 Hz UPS running a large computer installation is totally deafening. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat May 8 12:03:50 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 13:03:50 -0400 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS In-Reply-To: References: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: replying to myself...nope, it was a DOS based template I have for the DEC Rainbow, it's not VMS. Sorry. Bill On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 10:11 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > Zane...I had it three days ago but I cant find it at the moment. If you > dont find it elsewhere bug me privately. I must.have accidentally taken it > to my office and will have to check there > Bill > > On Fri, May 7, 2021, 9:45 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: > >> Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for >> the VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet >> scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT >> keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find >> the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have >> more than I thought). >> >> I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat May 8 12:32:29 2021 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 12:32:29 -0500 Subject: 400 Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d8019fb-192f-c4fb-2827-65ab0e6c289c@centurytel.net> On 5/8/21 12:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 8 Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 21:59:08 +0000 From: W2HX > To: Andrew Back , "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: RE: 400 Hz Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I will add that aircraft are > one of the main users of 400 Hz. This is because weight is always an > critical design consideration. So with smaller transformers, smaller > capacitors, etc, you can save a LOT of weight on electronic devices in > an aircraft. 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk > On Behalf Of Andrew Back via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:26 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 400 Hz On 05/05/2021 16:07, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Were the higher frequencies used because it directly effected the >> amount of time / duration in (fractions of) seconds between peaks of >> rectified (but not yet smoothed) power? > Haven't read the rest of the thread and so at the risk of being profoundly wrong... Benefit of 400Hz mains is that transformers can be much smaller. Think of switching power supplies that rectify to DC and then switch up into kHz, which are then able to use far smaller transformer cores than an old linear PSU. At least this is a key motivation with 115V/400Hz 3-phase aviation power AFAIK. > > By coincidence we've just built a big 28VDC power supply, so that we can run a vintage 400Hz aircraft rotary inverter, which will then be used to power up old mil surplus kit that wants this. A classic adventure in yak shaving. Anyway, here's the 28VDC bit. > > https://www.rs-online.com/designspark/constructing-a-high-current-28v-dc-power-supply That's a very neat repackaging of the Lambda power supplies! Do they have the surge capability to start that rotary inverter (which may require a LOT more than 44 amps until the armature gets moving)... I hope you tested them first ;) I bought a 1 KVA 115V 400 Hz supply, a PP-7482/G from Fair Radio back when they still had them ("Reparable") a few years ago. The H-bridge TO-3 transistors were all blown, some with holes melted through their lids. I replaced them with BUX48A parts and it works again. It really sings that A-flat though ;) But I don't have anything to run with it! When I was young, 400 Hz surplus gear was a dime a dozen because no one had 400 Hz power. Now I do and all that gear has disappeared... -Charles WB3JOK/0 since '76 :) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat May 8 14:48:36 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 20:48:36 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> On 18/04/2021 18:00, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > I'm using a seven year old DVD-RW drive and a similarly aged DVD-ROM > drive. The results are the same in either case. > > Life got in the way, as usual, but here are a few CDROMs to start with: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1c1ttR83wt5Y4z4O9DsFWtJgV-PdpHarS?usp=sharing. Hopefully those will be accessible to whoever wants them. AG-MN36G-RE and AG-PASMA-RE are discs 1 and 2 of NOV-1989 CONDIST. AG-NC67C-RE is the JUL-1987 CONOLD. AG-NH36B-RE is Disc 1 of 2 of the JUL-1989 "VMS AD Software Consolidation", which I think was some sort of experiment. > Two of them may well be completely unrecoverable. The others that I've > tried with 1989 date codes are 99+% recoverable so I'm hoping that the > missing sector or so doesn't upset ODS-2 too much. If I get the time, > I'll try them out tonight. The May 1989 CONDIST (and the Mar 1989 > CONOLD) are both currently completely unreadable. I'll try one of them > in the GAME polishing machine, assuming they actually have a polishing > machine nearby. If there is no such machine nearby then I'll try the > 3000 grit sandpaper as there's not really much to lose. > I've no idea whether the nearby GAME store has a polisher, as they've not replied to my queries and I've given up waiting. I'm going to try 2000/3000 grit sandpaper on the MAR-1989 CONOLD soon, so we'll see how that goes (I picked up some rubbing compound today, which is needed for the final stage). I do have a few more early ones imaged, I just haven't scanned the CDROM themselves, so as soon as I get that done (hopefully less than a month this time!) I'll upload those and make a note here. These are tar images compressed with xz. "-J" should expand them. There is a sha256sum.txt file inside and a readme with details of the extraction and the results of the ddrescue command. I think AG-PASMA-RE read without error using dd. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From dick.curtis at ymail.com Sat May 8 16:28:52 2021 From: dick.curtis at ymail.com (Richard Curtis) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 21:28:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <598728872.1127854.1620509332921@mail.yahoo.com> On Friday, May 7, 2021, 11:07 CDT,?Zane Healy wrote: > These if I needed OpenVMS on a laptop, I'd simply run it via emulator or virtualization?> (not an option for Itanium).? I gather that at least some development on OpenVMS 9.2 > is being done on VM's running on the developers laptops. Well, the latest version shipping from Bolton is V9.0-H, which has the long-awaited support for VMware, and IIRC some non-zero number of compilers available.? It's still pretty well set in the "bleeding-edge" field of software though.? It's labelled as V90EAK, with the last three letters indicating "Early Adopters' Kit", and made available to a rather small number of VMS customers who are interested in making their own products run on X64-86 platforms (as well as work properly on Itanics running v9.x) I don't know whether VSI has any particular policy about making the field test kits available to hobbyists/end-users quite yet.? Bear in mind that there's a LOT of VMS components which aren't really ready to use yet.? If memory serves, the V9.1 kit will also be labelled as 'field test', but will be made available to a larger number of customers/test sites, and is expected to include working versions of the components currently 'in progress'. Regards,Dick From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat May 8 16:47:32 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 14:47:32 -0700 Subject: In search of RK05 rack caddy Message-ID: Okay, now that my 11/45 is up and running well, I could really make good use of one of those rack caddies for RK05 packs to hold my most commonly used system packs for different operating systems. Anybody have one they'd be willing to sell/trade, or at least the DEC part number so I could try to track down some drawings? Looking at pictures on the web, there seem to have been at least two styles: one with plated rod wings, and one with sheet metal wings? I'm supposing I'll end up needing to fab something myself unless these are less rare out there than I think they are (I've yet to see one go by on ePay, for example.) cheers, --FritzM. From dittman at dittman.net Sat May 8 19:46:00 2021 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 19:46:00 -0500 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: References: <202105071953.147JrhH518219152@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2c2c586a-007d-7ef9-91c4-db9033eecb31@dittman.net> On 5/7/21 5:07 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On May 7, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Back in the mid-90s, there was an outfit in Britain which made some >>> laptops using Alpha processors. >> >> That was the Tadpole ALPHAbook. Not many of those got to the outside world. >> Been watching for one for over a decade. For a period of time it was the >> fastest laptop available and it was reportedly not overly unpleasant to use >> (my Tadpole Viper, on the other hand, *is* unpleasant to use). >> >>> There was a rumor inside DECin the same time-frame about DEC engineers >>> prototyping an Alpha-based laptop (which never made it to market). >>> The rumor included the internal code-name... "BURNS". >> >> I don't doubt it! > > I?ve had my eye?s out for one for more like 20+ years. I do have a Tadpole SparcBook 3GS (? something like that), that was a pretty cool system. > > These if I needed OpenVMS on a laptop, I?d simply run it via emulator or virtualization (not an option for Itanium). I gather that at least some development on OpenVMS 9.2 is being done on VM?s running on the developers laptops. > > I seem to recall that the Tadpole AlphaBook performance is roughly on par with the DEC Multia, which is to say, not very good. Though I don?t think I ever got OpenVMS running on my Multia. I have an ALPHAbook. You're right, it's about the speed of the Multia. The batteries I have are dead, but when they were still working the run time wasn't very long. -- Eric Dittman From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 8 21:55:33 2021 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 21:55:33 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS In-Reply-To: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> References: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 8:45 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for the VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have more than I thought). > > I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). I have the manual binder and box here as well, but there is no keyboard overlay. Do we know for sure if they provided one? j From steven at malikoff.com Sat May 8 22:19:50 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 13:19:50 +1000 Subject: In search of RK05 rack caddy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <102ebe126138f49f2a8387a89bd1ebcd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Fritz said > Okay, now that my 11/45 is up and running well, I could really make good use of one of those rack caddies for RK05 packs to hold my most commonly used system packs for different operating systems. Anybody have one they'd be willing to sell/trade, or at least the DEC part number so I could try to track down some drawings? The rack for 14 RK05 cartridges was the DEC p/n H980-CC Disk Storage Rack, catalog# A-H980-CC. It required 17" of shelf mounting space and cost $33.25 in 1978, shipping weight 7 lbs. Two H980-CC's could fit one above the other in the H980-BA Media Storage Cabinet, Large (73"H x 38"W x 18-1/2"D). There were a number of other shelf and rack options: H980-CA Hanger Bar for Magtapes, H980-CB magtape storage rack), DECtapes (wireframe H980-CK or rollout drawer H980-H), RK06 Storage Rack (H980-CL), H980-CG Fixed Shelf for forms and punched cards, the H980-CN Data Binder Hanger for 14-7/8" printouts, the H980-CP Paper Hanger for 8-1/2" x 11" paper, the H980-CE Hanger Binder Frame for printout binders, the H980CH Divider Kit and the H980-CF Storage Drawer for utility storage. Also the H980-BB Small Storage Cabinet (61"Hx38"Wx18-1/2"D). Steve. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 10:05:00 2021 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 15:05:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Terminals wiki References: <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109@mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a mirror of the terminals wiki at https://terminals-wiki.org?? It seems to have gone dark over a year ago, and it would be a shame to lose the resource.? If there is no mirror, does anyone know of a way to contact the owner/maintainer?? I'd like to see if there's anything I can do to help get it back online. Thanks, Dave From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 9 10:14:40 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 16:14:40 +0100 Subject: Terminals wiki In-Reply-To: <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46c92950-1a48-fd2c-88f5-f6310d97a382@ntlworld.com> On 09/05/2021 16:05, Dave via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a mirror of the terminals wiki at https://terminals-wiki.org?? It seems to have gone dark over a year ago, and it would be a shame to lose the resource. > > If there is no mirror, does anyone know of a way to contact the owner/maintainer?? I'd like to see if there's anything I can do to help get it back online. > Thanks, > Dave https://web.archive.org/web/20181103180649/http://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/User:Legalize I think Richard also handles manx too (which is still around, luckily!). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun May 9 12:17:15 2021 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 17:17:15 +0000 Subject: Intel iPSC/860 restoration Message-ID: <0F918548-3991-4FF6-90E0-BEAF7E762BB4@vmssoftware.com> I managed to bring another one of my supercomputers back to life: an Intel iPSC/860. This one has 16 compute nodes, 8 i860?s and8 i386?s with Weitek co-processors, as well as 4 I/O nodes. Detailed writeup here: http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/42-repair/756-ipsc-860-repair Downloads (documentation, tape and floppy images available in the downloads section on my website. Camiel This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 9 12:46:08 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 10:46:08 -0700 Subject: Intel iPSC/860 restoration In-Reply-To: <0F918548-3991-4FF6-90E0-BEAF7E762BB4@vmssoftware.com> References: <0F918548-3991-4FF6-90E0-BEAF7E762BB4@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <7e3d8801-c0af-631b-ec2d-58560a8a190d@bitsavers.org> re. using plastibands for QIC recovery Chuck sent me a note about these, thought you'd be interested. I just got a package in to try. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08536J6Y5?language=en_US From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun May 9 13:09:14 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 11:09:14 -0700 Subject: Intel iPSC/860 restoration In-Reply-To: <7e3d8801-c0af-631b-ec2d-58560a8a190d@bitsavers.org> References: <0F918548-3991-4FF6-90E0-BEAF7E762BB4@vmssoftware.com> <7e3d8801-c0af-631b-ec2d-58560a8a190d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <012501d744fe$6c07a020$4416e060$@net> > Chuck sent me a note about these, thought you'd be interested. > I just got a package in to try. > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08536J6Y5?language=en_US > These are significantly cheaper than the Misumi ones if they fit/work. https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/?HissuCode=MB-15063WA-100G I would be interested in hearing how well they worked. I am assuming they will be used on repairs for DC300 and DC600 tapes? -Ali From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Sun May 9 11:12:44 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 09:12:44 -0700 Subject: Maxtor ESDI drive PCB question Message-ID: Hi All, I have two Maxtor XT-4380E drives, one is a Series Code 3 and the other is 4. Is it OK to swap the boards between the two or is this a bad idea? They physically appear to look the same. Also a general question about PCB cleanup. Is there a method or solvent of some sort to clean boards? I've always used 99% alcohol in the past. -Kurt From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Sun May 9 11:14:05 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 09:14:05 -0700 Subject: Maxtor ESDI drive PCB question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, typo... they are XT-8760E drives. On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:12 AM Kurt Nowak wrote: > Hi All, > > I have two Maxtor XT-4380E drives, one is a Series Code 3 and the other is > 4. Is it OK to swap the boards between the two or is this a bad idea? They > physically appear to look the same. > > Also a general question about PCB cleanup. Is there a method or solvent of > some sort to clean boards? I've always used 99% alcohol in the past. > > -Kurt > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 9 16:23:19 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 22:23:19 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I've now uploaded: ag-mn36e-re.tar.xz, ag-nh37b-re.tar.xz and el-cdrom-01-rev-L.tar.xz. The full set now available are: AG-MN36E-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-07 Disc 1 of 1 AG-NC67C-RE - VMS Online Documentation Library??????? 1989-07 Disc 1 of 1 AG-NH36B-RE - VMS AD Software Consolidation?????????? 1989-07 Disc 1 of 2 AG-NH37B-RE - VMS AD Software Consolidation?????????? 1989-07 Disc 2 of 2 AG-MN36G-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-11 Disc 1 of 2 AG-PASMA-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-11 Disc 2 of 2 EL-CDROM-01 - Digital Standards and Related Documents 1993-03-19 Rev L I think that a fair bit (if not even all) of the Standards CDROM is actually already available on bitsavers, but just in case, I've uploaded it anyway. If anyone wants to offer them a permanent home, that's fine by my (I don't need the space on the google drive just yet, but I will have to remove some images if I start to image a lot more (and I do seem to have a fair few more). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sun May 9 16:16:11 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 16:16:11 -0500 Subject: Apple II+ Video questions References: <3d61c2a6400f21fc7245655bfb04fd9b.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3d61c2a6400f21fc7245655bfb04fd9b@yahoo.com> Working on restoring my very first computer, an Apple II+. Got it mostly working with just a couple of issues identified at the moment. Some of the keys on the keyboard don't register but I can work on that. The real question I have is about the video, it constantly rolls and no amount of playing with the vertical hold on any monitor I try will completely stop it. I can get it close but it will slowly roll one way or the other at best. Tried several different monitors and it is the same on each. Also tried my old Apple IIe and it seems fine on all the monitors so trying to decide what might be the issue with the II+. Any ideas or areas to look? Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun May 9 16:53:15 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 14:53:15 -0700 Subject: Apple II+ Video questions In-Reply-To: <3d61c2a6400f21fc7245655bfb04fd9b@yahoo.com> References: <3d61c2a6400f21fc7245655bfb04fd9b.ref@yahoo.com> <3d61c2a6400f21fc7245655bfb04fd9b@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <35DC9698-E03C-47BF-B500-21276B5330A3@shaw.ca> On 2021-May-09, at 2:16 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > Working on restoring my very first computer, an Apple II+. Got it mostly working with just a couple of issues identified at the moment. Some of the keys on the keyboard don't register but I can work on that. The real question I have is about the video, it constantly rolls and no amount of playing with the vertical hold on any monitor I try will completely stop it. I can get it close but it will slowly roll one way or the other at best. Tried several different monitors and it is the same on each. Also tried my old Apple IIe and it seems fine on all the monitors so trying to decide what might be the issue with the II+. Any ideas or areas to look? It sounds like the vertical sync pulse may be missing, or 'weak', in the composite video output signal. You 'get it close' with the V-Hold as your adjusting effort brings the monitor frame rate (V frequency) to match the frame rate the Apple II is generating. Pull out the schematic and look at how V sync is generated. Probably easiest to start at the video output and work backwards, to where the combined V&H sync are added to the pixel video to form the final composite signal, then back to where V sync & H sync are combined, and so on. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun May 9 17:40:40 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 18:40:40 -0400 Subject: Maxtor ESDI drive PCB question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shouldn't be an issue, I got an 8760E working by doing the same kind of swap (one bad HDA, one bad controller=1 working drive) C On 5/9/2021 12:12 PM, Kurt Nowak via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > I have two Maxtor XT-4380E drives, one is a Series Code 3 and the other is > 4. Is it OK to swap the boards between the two or is this a bad idea? They > physically appear to look the same. > > Also a general question about PCB cleanup. Is there a method or solvent of > some sort to clean boards? I've always used 99% alcohol in the past. > > -Kurt > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun May 9 17:45:05 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 15:45:05 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS In-Reply-To: References: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2F213726-C7E7-4398-A7F2-B9EF93143D58@avanthar.com> Well, at least you had better luck than me, in that you found it. I know I have either a LK201 or a LK401 with a keyboard template taped to it (if I remember correctly it?s a xerox copy), but that?s one keyboard I can?t seem to find. Zane > On May 8, 2021, at 10:03 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > replying to myself...nope, it was a DOS based template I have for the DEC Rainbow, it's not VMS. Sorry. > Bill > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 10:11 PM Bill Degnan > wrote: > Zane...I had it three days ago but I cant find it at the moment. If you dont find it elsewhere bug me privately. I must.have accidentally taken it to my office and will have to check there > Bill > > On Fri, May 7, 2021, 9:45 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: > Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for the VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have more than I thought). > > I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). > > Zane > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun May 9 17:51:49 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 15:51:49 -0700 Subject: In search of RK05 rack caddy In-Reply-To: <102ebe126138f49f2a8387a89bd1ebcd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <102ebe126138f49f2a8387a89bd1ebcd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <85D83F6B-F161-4583-B80F-345AF195571A@fritzm.org> > On May 8, 2021, at 8:19 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > The rack for 14 RK05 cartridges was the DEC p/n H980-CC Disk Storage Rack, catalog# A-H980-CC. > ... There were a number of other shelf and rack options ... Thanks, Steve! I hadn't heard of the H980-* before. It looks like an entirely dedicated rack media storage system? The unit I am seeking is smaller, holding just five RK05 cartridges, and is commonly seen sharing H960 racks with system units and peripherals. cheers, --FritzM. From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun May 9 18:31:05 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 16:31:05 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS In-Reply-To: References: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <348AC4B9-CE07-456C-81CE-9D4E134CEEC5@avanthar.com> On May 8, 2021, at 7:55 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 8:45 PM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for the VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have more than I thought). >> >> I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). > > I have the manual binder and box here as well, but there is no > keyboard overlay. Do we know for sure if they provided one? The Reference manual mentions that there should be a keyboard template, and that there were also ?keycals". I have two keyboards with the stickers to show which PF key goes to which set of the four rows of function key commands. You can also display this on your terminal screen by hitting ?help? twice. It would be easy to create a template for the function keys, but with the ?edit key template? and the ?keypad template?, you just about have to have stickers. Zane From shumaker at att.net Sun May 9 18:51:39 2021 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 16:51:39 -0700 Subject: Terminals wiki In-Reply-To: <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19f9059b-4977-0f1d-d785-ce60e68f0e6b@att.net> On 5/9/2021 8:05 AM, Dave via cctech wrote: > Does anyone have a mirror of the terminals wiki at https://terminals-wiki.org?? It seems to have gone dark over a year ago, and it would be a shame to lose the resource. > > If there is no mirror, does anyone know of a way to contact the owner/maintainer?? I'd like to see if there's anything I can do to help get it back online. > Thanks, > Dave the last scrape by waybackmachine.org was in 2020 and showed it as "offline for maintenance" steve From drb at msu.edu Mon May 10 01:09:02 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 02:09:02 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles Message-ID: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Folks, Does anyone have a design for printing card handles for QBUS / UNIBUS cards? It seems a natural application. Some grepping of the list logs, a brief plonk through the gadawful thingiverse search, and various googling have produced no existing designs. Thanks, De From drb at msu.edu Mon May 10 01:18:53 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 02:18:53 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 May 2021 02:09:02 -0400.) <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20210510061853.BCD07386379@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Does anyone have a design for printing card handles for QBUS / UNIBUS > cards? It seems a natural application. I suppose I should be more specific: the plastic kind that are just handles, also seen on flip chip cards, -8 stuff, whatever. Not extractor levers or s-box stuff. TIA, De From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon May 10 01:25:02 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 23:25:02 -0700 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: <20210510061853.BCD07386379@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20210510061853.BCD07386379@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <8B897AD8-5651-4F04-A77F-BEC8FC764CD5@fritzm.org> > On May 9, 2021, at 11:18 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a design for printing card handles for QBUS / UNIBUS > cards? It seems a natural application. There is an stl file on this page (4th down on the right): https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php I had a few of these printed for a Unibone I put together, and they came out well. cheers, --FritzM. From drb at msu.edu Mon May 10 01:29:42 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 02:29:42 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 09 May 2021 23:25:02 -0700.) <8B897AD8-5651-4F04-A77F-BEC8FC764CD5@fritzm.org> References: <8B897AD8-5651-4F04-A77F-BEC8FC764CD5@fritzm.org> <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20210510061853.BCD07386379@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20210510062942.3BAE0386529@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > There is an stl file on this page (4th down on the right): > I had a few of these printed for a Unibone I put together, and they > came out well. Fritz, Perfect, thanks! De From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 10 02:20:04 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 02:20:04 -0500 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: vince has some onhis site https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:09 AM Dennis Boone via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Folks, > > Does anyone have a design for printing card handles for QBUS / UNIBUS > cards? It seems a natural application. > > Some grepping of the list logs, a brief plonk through the gadawful > thingiverse search, and various googling have produced no existing > designs. > > Thanks, > > De > From mdehling at gmail.com Mon May 10 04:05:30 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 11:05:30 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> On Sun, May 09, 2021 at 10:23:19PM +0100, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I've now uploaded: ag-mn36e-re.tar.xz, ag-nh37b-re.tar.xz and > el-cdrom-01-rev-L.tar.xz. > > The full set now available are: > > AG-MN36E-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-07 Disc 1 of 1 > AG-NC67C-RE - VMS Online Documentation Library??????? 1989-07 Disc 1 of 1 > AG-NH36B-RE - VMS AD Software Consolidation?????????? 1989-07 Disc 1 of 2 > AG-NH37B-RE - VMS AD Software Consolidation?????????? 1989-07 Disc 2 of 2 > AG-MN36G-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-11 Disc 1 of 2 > AG-PASMA-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-11 Disc 2 of 2 > EL-CDROM-01 - Digital Standards and Related Documents 1993-03-19 Rev L Thanks a lot, Antonio, these are very valuable to have! > If anyone wants to offer them a permanent home, that's fine by my (I > don't need the space on the google drive just yet, but I will have to > remove some images if I start to image a lot more (and I do seem to > have a fair few more). I think uploading them to archive.org would be a good long-term solution. I can take care of it if you don't have an account. Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 10 06:54:37 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 12:54:37 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> References: <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> Message-ID: <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> On 10/05/2021 10:05, Malte Dehling wrote: > Thanks a lot, Antonio, these are very valuable to have! I've only checked a couple of them under SIMH, so it would be helpful to know if I need to check my workflow or not. > I think uploading them to archive.org would be a good long-term > solution. I can take care of it if you don't have an account. Please do. Thanks. In other news, I polished the MAR-1989 CONOLD, which looked very bad, to start with. Amazingly it buffed up quite nicely and then read surprisingly well: [ $ ddrescue -r5 -v /dev/sr1 CDROM-AG-NC67A-RE-1989-03-VMS-CONOLD.iso CDROM-AG-NC67A-RE-1989-03-VMS-CONOLD.map GNU ddrescue 1.23 About to copy 205199 kBytes from '/dev/sr1' to 'CDROM-AG-NC67A-RE-1989-03-VMS-CONOLD.iso' ??? Starting positions: infile = 0 B,? outfile = 0 B ??? Copy block size: 128 sectors?????? Initial skip size: 128 sectors Sector size: 512 Bytes Press Ctrl-C to interrupt ???? ipos:? 205198 kB, non-trimmed:??????? 0 B,? current rate:?????? 0 B/s ???? opos:? 205198 kB, non-scraped:??????? 0 B,? average rate: 637 kB/s non-tried:??????? 0 B,? bad-sector:???? 2048 B,??? error rate: 170 B/s ? rescued:? 205197 kB,?? bad areas:??????? 1,??????? run time:????? 5m 22s pct rescued:?? 99.99%, read errors:?????? 25,? remaining time:???????? n/a ????????????????????????????? time since last successful read:????? 2m? 1s Finished ] So I went ahead and tried the CONDIST from MAY-1989. That too now can be read, although it is proving a somewhat tougher nut to crack: [ $ ddrescue -r5 -v /dev/sr1 CDROM-AG-MN36D-RE-1989-05-VMS-CONDIST.iso CDROM-AG-MN36D-RE-1989-05-VMS-CONDIST.map GNU ddrescue 1.23 About to copy 623247 kBytes from '/dev/sr1' to 'CDROM-AG-MN36D-RE-1989-05-VMS-CONDIST.iso' ??? Starting positions: infile = 0 B,? outfile = 0 B ??? Copy block size: 128 sectors?????? Initial skip size: 128 sectors Sector size: 512 Bytes Press Ctrl-C to interrupt ???? ipos:??? 5919 kB, non-trimmed:??????? 0 B,? current rate:?????? 0 B/s ???? opos:??? 5919 kB, non-scraped:?? 11127 kB,? average rate: 14694 B/s non-tried:??????? 0 B,? bad-sector:??? 2843 kB,??? error rate:????? 85 B/s ? rescued:? 609276 kB,?? bad areas:????? 445,??????? run time: 11h 31m? 2s pct rescued:?? 97.75%, read errors:???? 5884,? remaining time:? 5d 23h 43m ????????????????????????????? time since last successful read:????? 2m 45s Scraping failed blocks... (forwards)??? ] On the plus side, that's 97.75% more data than I had before :-) but the "remaining time" looks like it could be the rest of the week (it varies quite a bit). I think, from reading the manual, that I can use CTRL-C and restart this again later and it will pick up where it left off using the map file. Is this right? Are there any other options I should consider trying? Another thought is that perhaps a shade more polishing might help. If I polish the CDROM a little more and then resume the ddrescue, I think I won't be any worse off than I am now, i.e. all existing data will still be there and all I'll be risking is data that maybe would have eventually read before but now may not read at all. Is that right? Successful reads are now ~20m apart, so I suspect that the remaining data will be quite difficult to recover. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon May 10 07:48:08 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 20:48:08 +0800 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Just don't expect it to be as tough as the original. On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:20 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > vince has some onhis site https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:09 AM Dennis Boone via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Folks, > > > > Does anyone have a design for printing card handles for QBUS / UNIBUS > > cards? It seems a natural application. > > > > Some grepping of the list logs, a brief plonk through the gadawful > > thingiverse search, and various googling have produced no existing > > designs. > > > > Thanks, > > > > De > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 10 08:08:55 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 09:08:55 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: That would depend on which material/printer you use. paul > On May 10, 2021, at 8:48 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Just don't expect it to be as tough as the original. > > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:20 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> vince has some onhis site https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php >> >> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 1:09 AM Dennis Boone via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Does anyone have a design for printing card handles for QBUS / UNIBUS >>> cards? It seems a natural application. >>> >>> Some grepping of the list logs, a brief plonk through the gadawful >>> thingiverse search, and various googling have produced no existing >>> designs. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> De >>> >> From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon May 10 09:14:45 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 15:14:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4d510bea.43279.17956a15b8c.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> On May 10, 2021, at 8:48 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: Just don't expect it to be as tough as the original. I would assume it would be trivial to do an injection-moulded run of these handles, if 3D print schematics are available. They were definitely well-copied in the hey-day of the PDP-11, with most 3rd-party cards using identical handles, minus DEC branding. I think the real question would be if doing a production run would be worth it. To make it economical, you'd need to do a run of a few thousand, but i can't imagine the market demand would be there for so many handles. The other question is, why replicate the originals? Surely, there's got to be a drop-in replacement that would be stronger, even if it's a length of bent steel rod with the ends flattened and drilled through. (I'm sure i've seen someone do this somewhere, but i may have just dreamed it) Josh Rice From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon May 10 11:25:49 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 09:25:49 -0700 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: <4d510bea.43279.17956a15b8c.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4d510bea.43279.17956a15b8c.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > On May 10, 2021, at 7:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > I would assume it would be trivial to do an injection-moulded run of these handles... They might also be ideal for silicone mold / resin cast, for smaller/home production runs? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 10 12:02:48 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 10:02:48 -0700 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <226ad60f-9744-40b6-8ca5-a69a3ed933cc@bitsavers.org> On 5/9/21 11:09 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Folks, > > Does anyone have a design for printing card handles for QBUS / UNIBUS > cards? how about https://www.essentracomponents.com/en-us/p/pcb-card-pullers From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Mon May 10 12:15:34 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 10:15:34 -0700 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4d510bea.43279.17956a15b8c.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <826ef016-3060-e690-de81-8209479712e9@gmail.com> On 5/10/2021 9:25 AM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 10, 2021, at 7:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >> I would assume it would be trivial to do an injection-moulded run of these handles... > > They might also be ideal for silicone mold / resin cast, for smaller/home production runs? Resin casting will work, but it's messy, etc. I haven't had any trouble with the toughness of 3D printed handles. Honestly, I often attach them with a pair of small zip-ties instead of rivets, and they are still plenty strong. The usual caveats about 3D printing apply -- just don't print it so that the layers will be torn apart when you pull on it! Maybe you PDP-11 guys are more used to hex cards, or something? I did have some PCB made where the card fingers tended to bind, but that's best addressed with some careful filing and a tweak of the CAD files for the next run :-). (The CAD files on so-much-stuff have long been tweaked for a good fit to the connector blocks.) Vince From drb at msu.edu Mon May 10 12:21:08 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 13:21:08 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 May 2021 10:02:48 -0700.) <226ad60f-9744-40b6-8ca5-a69a3ed933cc@bitsavers.org> References: <226ad60f-9744-40b6-8ca5-a69a3ed933cc@bitsavers.org> <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20210510172111.D5C043867F2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > how about https://www.essentracomponents.com/en-us/p/pcb-card-pullers Two thoughts - * Not sure the mounting hole spacing is correct; the one from Vince's site looks to be about 2" between centers; the Essentra says 1.25". It's entirely possible I don't know diddly about DEC card handles though. * Minimum order 500, and 1000 before a price break. De From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon May 10 12:59:14 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 13:59:14 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: <826ef016-3060-e690-de81-8209479712e9@gmail.com> References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4d510bea.43279.17956a15b8c.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <826ef016-3060-e690-de81-8209479712e9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d7a01d745c6$306b79b0$91426d10$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 1:16 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles > > On 5/10/2021 9:25 AM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On May 10, 2021, at 7:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > >> I would assume it would be trivial to do an injection-moulded run of these handles... > > > > They might also be ideal for silicone mold / resin cast, for smaller/home production runs? > > Resin casting will work, but it's messy, etc. I haven't had any trouble > with the toughness of 3D printed handles. Honestly, I often attach them > with a pair of small zip-ties instead of rivets, and they are still > plenty strong. The usual caveats about 3D printing apply -- just don't > print it so that the layers will be torn apart when you pull on it! Douglas Electronics used to stock these as Miscellaneous items alongside their DEC compatible PCBs. http://www.douglas.com/index.php/off-the-shelf-solutions/bread-boards/de-11-dec-compatible.html However I don't see them listed anymore; nor am I able to find them using the search function . Possibly they simply sold out of their existing stock, and that was that. You could inquire on the off chance that they just aren't listing any remainders. paul From amp1ron at gmail.com Mon May 10 13:14:20 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:14:20 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles In-Reply-To: <2d7a01d745c6$306b79b0$91426d10$@gmail.com> References: <20210510060902.BDB703864BF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4d510bea.43279.17956a15b8c.Webtop.117@btinternet.com> <826ef016-3060-e690-de81-8209479712e9@gmail.com> <2d7a01d745c6$306b79b0$91426d10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7CDC82D2-9835-4731-91AB-23B119B31328@gmail.com> I don?t know about the spacing of the holes, but BIVAR has one and two-hole card pull handles. https://www.bivar.com/product/cp-pcb-handles/ Datasheet: http://www.bivar.com/parts_content/Datasheets/CP-1and2.pdf -- Ron Pool From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 10 13:26:44 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 20:26:44 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! Message-ID: Today I finally got the SPACEWAR version for PDP-11/10 running again on my PDP-11/05 with AR11 board. I played a couple of rounds together with my daughter. She was better than me. Quite hard game IMHO. https://youtu.be/fTiHRAKjyho Bill Seiler and Larry Bryant wrote this version in 1974 and submitted it to DECUS. It was believed to have been lost to history. But Bill had saved the printouts from the PAL11 assembler. He sent me scans of these printouts as pdf files. I then transcribed it into source files and iterated several times in SimH to get a clean build and link. I got some help from people here doing OCR on some files. But the lines mostly confused the OCR process so a lot of errors was introduced. It turned out that it was easier to just transcribe the whole lot by hand than finding and correcting errors. The AR11 is somewhat different to the AD01 and AA11 that Bill and Larry used. AA11 has a 12 bit 2?s complement D/A while the AR11 is only 10 bits and not 2?s complement. I did some patches and eventually got everything right. I also connected a couple of analogue joysticks. The fire button is just short ciruiting the viper of the potentiometer to the 5V supply lead. The screen is a HP1332A vector screen. All the transcribed code, AR11 patches and build instructions are available on github. https://github.com/MattisLind/SPACEWAR It should be possible to adapt it to orher types of A/D and D/A hardware if anyone wishes to do so. However the gameplay might be harder when running on a faster PDP-11? Have fun! /Mattis From lars at nocrew.org Mon May 10 13:35:40 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 18:35:40 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: (Mattis Lind via cctalk's message of "Mon, 10 May 2021 20:26:44 +0200") References: Message-ID: <7wczty1loj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Mattis Lind wrote: > Today I finally got the SPACEWAR version for PDP-11/10 running again > on my PDP-11/05 with AR11 board. Congratulations! It's great to watch your video. > But the lines mostly confused the OCR process so a lot of errors was > introduced. It turned out that it was easier to just transcribe the > whole lot by hand than finding and correcting errors. That is also my experience after doing a few of these transcription jobs. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 13:53:41 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 11:53:41 -0700 Subject: Intel iPSC/860 restoration In-Reply-To: <7e3d8801-c0af-631b-ec2d-58560a8a190d@bitsavers.org> References: <0F918548-3991-4FF6-90E0-BEAF7E762BB4@vmssoftware.com> <7e3d8801-c0af-631b-ec2d-58560a8a190d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/9/21 10:46 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > re. using plastibands for QIC recovery > > Chuck sent me a note about these, thought you'd be interested. > I just got a package in to try. > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08536J6Y5?language=en_US I've been using them for a couple of weeks now. Easy to apply (compared to plastiands) runs perfectly in DC300-600 sized cartridges. Just done a bunch of SLR3 Magnus carts--no problems, even in an SLR5 drive (higher speed). The 145mm size is about perfect for the job and the 5mm width is also just right. It helps to stretch them a bit before applying, but then I do that with Plastibands. --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Mon May 10 14:11:44 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 15:11:44 -0400 Subject: Intel iPSC/860 restoration In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 May 2021 11:53:41 -0700.) References: <0F918548-3991-4FF6-90E0-BEAF7E762BB4@vmssoftware.com> <7e3d8801-c0af-631b-ec2d-58560a8a190d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20210510191144.BF510386734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I've been using them for a couple of weeks now. Easy to apply > (compared to plastiands) runs perfectly in DC300-600 sized > cartridges. Is there a size that works for the minicarts? De From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon May 10 14:27:29 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:27:29 -0500 Subject: Apple II+ Video questions In-Reply-To: <35DC9698-E03C-47BF-B500-21276B5330A3@shaw.ca> References: <3d61c2a6400f21fc7245655bfb04fd9b.ref@yahoo.com> <3d61c2a6400f21fc7245655bfb04fd9b@yahoo.com> <35DC9698-E03C-47BF-B500-21276B5330A3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 2021-05-09 16:53, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > It sounds like the vertical sync pulse may be missing, or 'weak', in > the composite video output signal. > > You 'get it close' with the V-Hold as your adjusting effort brings the > monitor frame rate (V frequency) to match the frame rate the Apple II > is generating. > > Pull out the schematic and look at how V sync is generated. Probably > easiest to start at the video output and work backwards, to where the > combined V&H sync are added to the pixel video to form the final > composite signal, then back to where V sync & H sync are combined, and > so on. Someone suggested bad ram and as I tried to boot DOS 3.3 it would drop into the monitor and display some memory. Since it loads into high mem I pulled the language card and the top 16K of ram leaving me 32K in the system. Now it turns on and the vertical sync is fine but have other issues. Namely it wouldn't give me a beep and prompt, just the standard screen of @ and ? which is normal for boot up but wouldn't respond otherwise. So pulled the next bank of ram and it would boot and give me a prompt but was still randomly failing in various ways. So I am guessing some bad ram is possible cause of the sync issue at least, though there appears to still be other issues with the board somewhere else. As the sync made it hard to follow stuff on the screen I wanted that fixed first. I need to work on the keyboard next as having a bunch of keys not responding makes it difficult to find issues. For example the "3" doesn't work so can't get into BASIC from the monitor even. At least I feel like I'm making progress. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 14:45:59 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 12:45:59 -0700 Subject: Intel iPSC/860 restoration In-Reply-To: <20210510191144.BF510386734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <0F918548-3991-4FF6-90E0-BEAF7E762BB4@vmssoftware.com> <7e3d8801-c0af-631b-ec2d-58560a8a190d@bitsavers.org> <20210510191144.BF510386734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <9ffa1b61-a37b-19d3-5c3b-3614205b8fb3@sydex.com> On 5/10/21 12:11 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I've been using them for a couple of weeks now. Easy to apply > > (compared to plastiands) runs perfectly in DC300-600 sized > > cartridges. > > Is there a size that works for the minicarts? Haven't found one yet. --chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon May 10 17:06:47 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 17:06:47 -0500 Subject: Apple II PSU References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> Anyone have any idea on how to open this particular Apple II PSU? It is a Astec AA 11040B and has like a rivet on each side in the middle. All the other supplies I've messed with just had screws along the bottom. Trying to remove the bottom of the casing so I can work on the supply itself. Link to a pic of it. Thanks for any help. http://www.trailingedge.com/images/A2PSU.jpg David Williams www.trailingedge.com From organlists1 at sonic.net Mon May 10 17:26:09 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (Don R) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 15:26:09 -0700 Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48F7FCCC-4C6F-42AB-9D79-7848DE60769A@sonic.net> In a search on eBay for that Astec p/n seems the power supplies made in Hong Kong have the two rivets you shared in the image. Those manufactured in Malaysia have screws all around. Seems to be an tampering deterrent and or warranty void indicator to me. If they are aluminum pop rivets, they should drill out easily. Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 10, 2021, at 3:07 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > ?Anyone have any idea on how to open this particular Apple II PSU? It is a Astec AA 11040B and has like a rivet on each side in the middle. All the other supplies I've messed with just had screws along the bottom. Trying to remove the bottom of the casing so I can work on the supply itself. Link to a pic of it. > > Thanks for any help. > > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/A2PSU.jpg > > David Williams > www.trailingedge.com > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon May 10 17:31:50 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 23:31:50 +0100 Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> Just me that reaches for a 2mm drill then? I realise people may react in horror at this, but your chances of getting swarf in the PSU are slim to negative. Oh and while you?re in there, please remove the 0.47uF RIFA before it explodes, assuming it hasn?t already of course in which case it?d be best to clean up the mess it left when it did. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > On 10 May 2021, at 23:06, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have any idea on how to open this particular Apple II PSU? It is a Astec AA 11040B and has like a rivet on each side in the middle. All the other supplies I've messed with just had screws along the bottom. Trying to remove the bottom of the casing so I can work on the supply itself. Link to a pic of it. > > Thanks for any help. > > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/A2PSU.jpg > > David Williams > www.trailingedge.com From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon May 10 18:17:14 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 18:17:14 -0500 Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2021-05-10 17:31, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Just me that reaches for a 2mm drill then? I realise people may react > in horror at this, but your chances of getting swarf in the PSU are > slim to negative. Oh and while you?re in there, please remove the > 0.47uF RIFA before it explodes, assuming it hasn?t already of course > in which case it?d be best to clean up the mess it left when it did. Well given I've never had to drill anything out before, the idea hadn't occurred to me. As far as replacing anything inside, this unit is completely dead and I suspect a good bit of it will have to be replaced. Just need to get inside first. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 10 18:18:24 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 16:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 May 2021, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Just me that reaches for a 2mm drill then? I realise people may react in > horror at this, but your chances of getting swarf in the PSU are slim to > negative. Oh and while you?re in there, please remove the 0.47uF RIFA > before it explodes, assuming it hasn?t already of course in which case > it?d be best to clean up the mess it left when it did. This area is so backward, that metric drill bits are considered esoteric! 1/8" works OK, and will chuck in a Dremel. If it were a damaged screw, rather than a rivet, I would use a left-handed drill bit. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 10 18:45:01 2021 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 00:45:01 +0100 Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <712a89bc-ae5f-eea1-2395-b33794e5ba23@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2021 23:31, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Just me that reaches for a 2mm drill then? Probably. I usually use 3mm or 1/8". I've taken more than one Apple PSU apart that way, long ago. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon May 10 19:34:05 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 19:34:05 -0500 Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <81c563f33534e69eb69070d6cb2500f3@yahoo.com> On 2021-05-10 18:18, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > This area is so backward, that metric drill bits are considered > esoteric! > > 1/8" works OK, and will chuck in a Dremel. > > If it were a damaged screw, rather than a rivet, I would use a > left-handed drill bit. Which is pretty much what I ended up with. Surprised that this unit looks in such good shape inside, I expected to see it already exploded. Well time to get to work on it now and see if I can't get a working unit out of it. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon May 10 22:13:30 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 11:13:30 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication Message-ID: What is the best type of lubricant for Omnibus backplanes? It can be a struggle to insert and remove PDP-8/e boards into the Omnibus. There is a risk of damage to the brittle bakelite connector housings on the Omnibus PCB. Traditional contact sprays should work but have two problems: 1) they remain wet and over time will attract and retain dust 2) the solvent and lubricant *may* weaken or attack the bakelite There are some PTFE (Teflon) based lubricant sprays which create a dry film. Would this type of spray work? Any suggestions on what I could use that reduces the strain on the Omnibus and the PCBs during insertion/removal without creating new problems? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon May 10 23:45:00 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 21:45:00 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C5FEB23-99E3-444D-AF76-8DC7C59758FA@gmail.com> Nice! Marc > On May 10, 2021, at 11:26 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > ?Today I finally got the SPACEWAR version for PDP-11/10 running again on my > PDP-11/05 with AR11 board. I played a couple of rounds together with my > daughter. She was better than me. Quite hard game IMHO. > > https://youtu.be/fTiHRAKjyho > > Bill Seiler and Larry Bryant wrote this version in 1974 and submitted it to > DECUS. It was believed to have been lost to history. But Bill had saved the > printouts from the PAL11 assembler. He sent me scans of these printouts as > pdf files. I then transcribed it into source files and iterated several > times in SimH to get a clean build and link. I got some help from people > here doing OCR on some files. But the lines mostly confused the OCR process > so a lot of errors was introduced. It turned out that it was easier to just > transcribe the whole lot by hand than finding and correcting errors. > > The AR11 is somewhat different to the AD01 and AA11 that Bill and Larry > used. AA11 has a 12 bit 2?s complement D/A while the AR11 is only 10 bits > and not 2?s complement. I did some patches and eventually got everything > right. > > I also connected a couple of analogue joysticks. The fire button is just > short ciruiting the viper of the potentiometer to the 5V supply lead. The > screen is a HP1332A vector screen. > > All the transcribed code, AR11 patches and build instructions are available > on github. https://github.com/MattisLind/SPACEWAR > > It should be possible to adapt it to orher types of A/D and D/A hardware if > anyone wishes to do so. However the gameplay might be harder when running > on a faster PDP-11? > > Have fun! > > /Mattis From george.rachor at gmail.com Mon May 10 13:30:48 2021 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 11:30:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is very cool! George > On May 10, 2021, at 11:26 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Today I finally got the SPACEWAR version for PDP-11/10 running again on my > PDP-11/05 with AR11 board. I played a couple of rounds together with my > daughter. She was better than me. Quite hard game IMHO. > > https://youtu.be/fTiHRAKjyho > > Bill Seiler and Larry Bryant wrote this version in 1974 and submitted it to > DECUS. It was believed to have been lost to history. But Bill had saved the > printouts from the PAL11 assembler. He sent me scans of these printouts as > pdf files. I then transcribed it into source files and iterated several > times in SimH to get a clean build and link. I got some help from people > here doing OCR on some files. But the lines mostly confused the OCR process > so a lot of errors was introduced. It turned out that it was easier to just > transcribe the whole lot by hand than finding and correcting errors. > > The AR11 is somewhat different to the AD01 and AA11 that Bill and Larry > used. AA11 has a 12 bit 2?s complement D/A while the AR11 is only 10 bits > and not 2?s complement. I did some patches and eventually got everything > right. > > I also connected a couple of analogue joysticks. The fire button is just > short ciruiting the viper of the potentiometer to the 5V supply lead. The > screen is a HP1332A vector screen. > > All the transcribed code, AR11 patches and build instructions are available > on github. https://github.com/MattisLind/SPACEWAR > > It should be possible to adapt it to orher types of A/D and D/A hardware if > anyone wishes to do so. However the gameplay might be harder when running > on a faster PDP-11? > > Have fun! > > /Mattis From grumpyx at gmail.com Mon May 10 14:37:32 2021 From: grumpyx at gmail.com (Grumpyx) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 15:37:32 -0400 Subject: Terminals wiki In-Reply-To: <19f9059b-4977-0f1d-d785-ce60e68f0e6b@att.net> References: <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1514663273.2346217.1620572700109@mail.yahoo.com> <19f9059b-4977-0f1d-d785-ce60e68f0e6b@att.net> Message-ID: This may help: https://web.archive.org/web/20181103180649/http://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/User:Legalize On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 7:51 PM s shumaker via cctech wrote: > On 5/9/2021 8:05 AM, Dave via cctech wrote: > > Does anyone have a mirror of the terminals wiki at > https://terminals-wiki.org? It seems to have gone dark over a year ago, > and it would be a shame to lose the resource. > > > > If there is no mirror, does anyone know of a way to contact the > owner/maintainer? I'd like to see if there's anything I can do to help get > it back online. > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > the last scrape by waybackmachine.org was in 2020 and showed it as > "offline for maintenance" > > > steve > From boris at summitclinic.com Tue May 11 01:00:13 2021 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 22:00:13 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210511061523.85E3A4E71F@mx2.ezwind.net> Thanks Mattis - watching an AR11 making that oscilloscope display brings back a lot of memories from my PDP-11 programming days. Had heard of spacewar in 1980, but was more interested in playing around displaying data on screen of a scope. One of my jobs was to clean up electrophysiology data for publication and that meant removing noise in signal so had a joystick system which could move and click on point on screen I wanted deleted. 11/34 was fast enough that we had an EE summer student create a dot matrix character set so we could put captions on our oscilloscope images. Of course, only way of getting hard copies of those was with an oscilloscope Polaroid camera. Looking at the printouts that you're dealing with, I had a hard time making out some of the characters. Can see individual dots in a number of the characters and haven't found any OCR in past that works well on them. Had my MSc thesis printed on and IBM lineprinter and looks good from afar but couldn't get any OCR program to digitize it properly. At least the spacewar code is relatively short! Boris Gimbarzevsky >Today I finally got the SPACEWAR version for PDP-11/10 running again on my >PDP-11/05 with AR11 board. I played a couple of rounds together with my >daughter. She was better than me. Quite hard game IMHO. > >https://youtu.be/fTiHRAKjyho > >Bill Seiler and Larry Bryant wrote this version in 1974 and submitted it to >DECUS. It was believed to have been lost to history. But Bill had saved the >printouts from the PAL11 assembler. He sent me scans of these printouts as >pdf files. I then transcribed it into source files and iterated several >times in SimH to get a clean build and link. I got some help from people >here doing OCR on some files. But the lines mostly confused the OCR process >so a lot of errors was introduced. It turned out that it was easier to just >transcribe the whole lot by hand than finding and correcting errors. > >The AR11 is somewhat different to the AD01 and AA11 that Bill and Larry >used. AA11 has a 12 bit 2???s complement D/A while the AR11 is only 10 bits >and not 2???s complement. I did some patches and eventually got everything >right. > >I also connected a couple of analogue joysticks. The fire button is just >short ciruiting the viper of the potentiometer to the 5V supply lead. The >screen is a HP1332A vector screen. > >All the transcribed code, AR11 patches and build instructions are available >on github. https://github.com/MattisLind/SPACEWAR > >It should be possible to adapt it to orher types of A/D and D/A hardware if >anyone wishes to do so. However the gameplay might be harder when running >on a faster PDP-11? > >Have fun! > >/Mattis From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 11 08:22:26 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 08:22:26 -0500 Subject: In search of RK05 rack caddy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a couple spares made of wood that I and a friend put together. I know I have two for sure - may have a couple more in storage. Stores the disks vertically (which is probably better than storing them horizontally). Not as space efficient as wire racks of course. 7 disk packs stored in just under 15 inches of space. Of course, it would probably be cheaper to make them than to ship them. ;) JRJ On 5/8/2021 4:47 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > Okay, now that my 11/45 is up and running well, I could really make good use of one of those rack caddies for RK05 packs to hold my most commonly used system packs for different operating systems. Anybody have one they'd be willing to sell/trade, or at least the DEC part number so I could try to track down some drawings? > > Looking at pictures on the web, there seem to have been at least two styles: one with plated rod wings, and one with sheet metal wings? I'm supposing I'll end up needing to fab something myself unless these are less rare out there than I think they are (I've yet to see one go by on ePay, for example.) > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > From compoobah at gmail.com Tue May 11 08:34:09 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 06:34:09 -0700 Subject: Pipelining and Dec Jupiter thoughts.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42f20745d55dcf7167f23bf2aaf6aa1d749eb8f0.camel@gmail.com> On Sat, 2021-05-08 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I seem to recall that the Tadpole AlphaBook performance is roughly on > par with the DEC Multia, which is to say, not very good.? Though I > don?t think I ever got OpenVMS running on my Multia. > > Zane I did get it running on mine for a while. I remember it wasn't fast and was kind of annoying - the VMS-capable SRM had a peculiar bug where if the NVRAM battery died you had to failsafe-load the official Multia firmware then load the VMS-capable one otherwise the framebuffer would never initialize, not even after the battery was replaced. Finally got a DEC 3000 and passed the Multia off. Wish that some of the DEC gear that was showing up was nearby... ah well. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 11 08:46:54 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 09:46:54 -0400 Subject: In search of RK05 rack caddy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 11, 2021, at 9:22 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > I have a couple spares made of wood that I and a friend put together. I know I have two for sure - may have a couple more in storage. Stores the disks vertically (which is probably better than storing them horizontally). Either should be fine. I remember at DEC we had RK05 racks that were designed to go into a 19 inch rack, in the space a BA11 would fit into. It's basically a deep box with molded rails in the sides, set up to hold 3 or 4 RK05 packs horizontally. paul From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue May 11 09:33:49 2021 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:33:49 +0000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> I would use caig deoxit. They have a version that has lubrication properties. I think it is the "S" series. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 11:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication What is the best type of lubricant for Omnibus backplanes? It can be a struggle to insert and remove PDP-8/e boards into the Omnibus. There is a risk of damage to the brittle bakelite connector housings on the Omnibus PCB. Traditional contact sprays should work but have two problems: 1) they remain wet and over time will attract and retain dust 2) the solvent and lubricant *may* weaken or attack the bakelite There are some PTFE (Teflon) based lubricant sprays which create a dry film. Would this type of spray work? Any suggestions on what I could use that reduces the strain on the Omnibus and the PCBs during insertion/removal without creating new problems? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 11 09:59:37 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:59:37 +0000 Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: <81c563f33534e69eb69070d6cb2500f3@yahoo.com> References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> , <81c563f33534e69eb69070d6cb2500f3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: The rivets are likely more of a safety thing than an issue warrantee repair thing. The inside of a Apple II is intended to have user access. The switching supply has 300 to 400V DC inside. Definitely a potential lethal hazard. I hate those filter caps. I had one go at the last Maker Faire ( no more ? ). I was trying out the Oregon trail when the nasty smoke started pouring out. Luckily we had a drill handy to remove the rivets. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of David Williams via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 5:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II PSU On 2021-05-10 18:18, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > This area is so backward, that metric drill bits are considered > esoteric! > > 1/8" works OK, and will chuck in a Dremel. > > If it were a damaged screw, rather than a rivet, I would use a > left-handed drill bit. Which is pretty much what I ended up with. Surprised that this unit looks in such good shape inside, I expected to see it already exploded. Well time to get to work on it now and see if I can't get a working unit out of it. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From organlists1 at sonic.net Tue May 11 10:55:20 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (Don R) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 08:55:20 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: If the contacts are gold then I would suggest Caig ProGold followed by Caig Shield S5. Use sparingly as it?s highly conductive and may lead to some strange results from spraying it too freely. You might also consider one of Caig?s Non-Conductive Buss Lubricants. Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 11, 2021, at 7:38 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > ?I would use caig deoxit. They have a version that has lubrication properties. I think it is the "S" series. > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via cctalk > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 11:14 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication > > What is the best type of lubricant for Omnibus backplanes? > It can be a struggle to insert and remove PDP-8/e boards into the Omnibus. > There is a risk of damage to the brittle bakelite connector housings on the Omnibus PCB. > Traditional contact sprays should work but have two problems: > > 1) they remain wet and over time will attract and retain dust > 2) the solvent and lubricant *may* weaken or attack the bakelite > > There are some PTFE (Teflon) based lubricant sprays which create a dry film. Would this type of spray work? > > Any suggestions on what I could use that reduces the strain on the Omnibus and the PCBs during insertion/removal without creating new problems? > > Thanks and best regards > Tom Hunter > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 11 12:12:01 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 10:12:01 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> > I would suggest Caig I would suggest researching and understanding what their snake oil does before using any Caig product. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 11 12:46:49 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 13:46:49 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard Message-ID: Last year I created an LK201 keyboard emulator that uses a USB keyboard. More recently I extended that work to create a second one that uses a PS-2 keyboard instead. Partly because I had one and figured it would be fun to try. You can find both designs on Github at https://github.com/pkoning2/lk201emu . The "doc" directory describes both; in particular, file doc/kicad.md talks about the hardware design, with pointers to an OSHPark layout, a parts BOM, and assembly instructions. The new one is slightly larger than the old (2 by 2 inches, rather than 2 by 1.5). I like the audio implementation a bit better; perhaps I'll revise the USB version to use that same technique. Enjoy. Comments and feedback will be much appreciated, either by email or on this list or as "issues" on Github. paul From mark at matlockfamily.com Tue May 11 12:29:55 2021 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 12:29:55 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 80, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 10:15:34 -0700 > From: Vincent Slyngstad > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: QBUS/UNIBUS card handles > Message-ID: <826ef016-3060-e690-de81-8209479712e9 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 5/10/2021 9:25 AM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On May 10, 2021, at 7:14 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>> I would assume it would be trivial to do an injection-moulded run of these handles... >> >> They might also be ideal for silicone mold / resin cast, for smaller/home production runs? > > Resin casting will work, but it's messy, etc. I haven't had any trouble > with the toughness of 3D printed handles. Honestly, I often attach them > with a pair of small zip-ties instead of rivets, and they are still > plenty strong. The usual caveats about 3D printing apply -- just don't > print it so that the layers will be torn apart when you pull on it! > > Maybe you PDP-11 guys are more used to hex cards, or something? I did > have some PCB made where the card fingers tended to bind, but that's > best addressed with some careful filing and a tweak of the CAD files for > the next run :-). (The CAD files on so-much-stuff have long been > tweaked for a good fit to the connector blocks.) > > Vince Vince, I recently had Shapeways 3D print some of your card handles in Nylon 12. They call Nylon 12 ?versatile plastic? on their web site and they use a laser sintering process for fabrication. I used the card handles on my QBone and UniBone boards which makes them MUCH easier to insert and pull. The Nylon 12 seems to be quite tough and I used 3mm x 6mm long screws to fasten them. Shapeways charged $5.00 each plus shipping to make them. Thanks for the great 3D design! Best Regards, Mark From sieler at allegro.com Tue May 11 13:08:27 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 11:08:27 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! Message-ID: Re: Today I finally got the SPACEWAR version for PDP-11/10 running again on my PDP-11/05 with AR11 board. ... Bill Seiler and Larry Bryant wrote this version in 1974 Congratulations! Odd coincidence, sort of, in names ... "Seiler" wrote SPACEWAR in 1974 for the PDP-11, "Sieler" (me) wrote it for the Digital Scientific Meta 4 (an IBM 1130 super clone) in 1971. I suspect he gets his name mispronounced as much as I do :) Stan Sieler (long "e") From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue May 11 13:23:53 2021 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 18:23:53 +0000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Very interesting. In probably 30 years I've been repairing equipment and among the dozen or so electronics forums I belong to, you may be the first person I've run across to throw some shade on that product. I've never heard any concerns or warnings about it. And there are some rather reputable companies using it. Including HP, GE, Honeywell, Tektronix, etc. I feel I'm in good enough company with those folks to continue using it. https://caig.com/all-testimonials/ But please share your experience with it so others can form their opinions. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 1:12 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication > I would suggest Caig I would suggest researching and understanding what their snake oil does before using any Caig product. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 11 02:41:25 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 01:41:25 -0600 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/11/2021 11:46 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Last year I created an LK201 keyboard emulator that uses a USB keyboard. > > More recently I extended that work to create a second one that uses a PS-2 keyboard instead. Partly because I had one and figured it would be fun to try. > > You can find both designs on Github at https://github.com/pkoning2/lk201emu . The "doc" directory describes both; in particular, file doc/kicad.md talks about the hardware design, with pointers to an OSHPark layout, a parts BOM, and assembly instructions. > > The new one is slightly larger than the old (2 by 2 inches, rather than 2 by 1.5). I like the audio implementation a bit better; perhaps I'll revise the USB version to use that same technique. > > Enjoy. Comments and feedback will be much appreciated, either by email or on this list or as "issues" on Github. > > paul > Unicomp is still around, so you buy a real 'Clicky Keyboard'. USB or PS2. https://www.pckeyboard.com/ Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 11 14:22:51 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:22:51 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <364B2BDD-DF81-481A-99C7-17C6074363C8@comcast.net> > On May 11, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Stone wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 10:49:05 AM PDT, Paul Koning via cctech wrote: > > > > Last year I created an LK201 keyboard emulator that uses a USB keyboard. > > Just curious; have you thought of adding VSXXX-?? mouse emulation, using input from either USB or PS/2 mouse? > With a mini-DIN output? These are becoming hard to find (aside perhaps from our Australian member who mentions having them by the kg). No, I don't have anything that would use such a device. It's probably easy enough to do. The USB keyboard emulator is a device that has a USB host connector that accepts a keyboard, and an RS232 output to connect to the terminal. If you have some other device to emulate where the new hardware is USB (like a mouse) and the DEC side is a UART, it would be a matter of new software plus perhaps a different connector. One big question would be the need to dig up the protocols at the two ends. The LK201 protocol is spelled out in great detail in the Pro technical manual; if you can find the mouse protocol documentation then it's just SMOP. By all means feel free to grab the design and fork it to do what you want. As I said, I'm not likely to do it myself given the lack of anything to try it on. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 11 14:22:51 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:22:51 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <364B2BDD-DF81-481A-99C7-17C6074363C8@comcast.net> > On May 11, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Stone wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 10:49:05 AM PDT, Paul Koning via cctech wrote: > > > > Last year I created an LK201 keyboard emulator that uses a USB keyboard. > > Just curious; have you thought of adding VSXXX-?? mouse emulation, using input from either USB or PS/2 mouse? > With a mini-DIN output? These are becoming hard to find (aside perhaps from our Australian member who mentions having them by the kg). No, I don't have anything that would use such a device. It's probably easy enough to do. The USB keyboard emulator is a device that has a USB host connector that accepts a keyboard, and an RS232 output to connect to the terminal. If you have some other device to emulate where the new hardware is USB (like a mouse) and the DEC side is a UART, it would be a matter of new software plus perhaps a different connector. One big question would be the need to dig up the protocols at the two ends. The LK201 protocol is spelled out in great detail in the Pro technical manual; if you can find the mouse protocol documentation then it's just SMOP. By all means feel free to grab the design and fork it to do what you want. As I said, I'm not likely to do it myself given the lack of anything to try it on. paul From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue May 11 14:17:04 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 19:17:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 10:49:05 AM PDT, Paul Koning via cctech wrote: > Last year I created an LK201 keyboard emulator that uses a USB keyboard. Just curious; have you thought of adding VSXXX-?? mouse emulation, using input from either USB or PS/2 mouse? With a mini-DIN output? These are becoming hard to find (aside perhaps from our Australian member who mentions having them by the kg). Speaking of which; are any of those mice for sale? I could use another VSXXX-BB -- access.bus for Personal Decstation -- which are even rarer. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue May 11 14:17:04 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 19:17:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 10:49:05 AM PDT, Paul Koning via cctech wrote: > Last year I created an LK201 keyboard emulator that uses a USB keyboard. Just curious; have you thought of adding VSXXX-?? mouse emulation, using input from either USB or PS/2 mouse? With a mini-DIN output? These are becoming hard to find (aside perhaps from our Australian member who mentions having them by the kg). Speaking of which; are any of those mice for sale? I could use another VSXXX-BB -- access.bus for Personal Decstation -- which are even rarer. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 11 16:15:04 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 17:15:04 -0400 Subject: DMC integral modem line card schematics Message-ID: <183D577F-EBD4-438E-ACB2-432D338628F5@comcast.net> Does anyone have a DMC11 integral modem line card schematics set? I'm looking specifically for the part right next to the connector, i.e., the coax driver and coax receiver parts. I don't see it on Bitsavers. That does have a line unit maintenance manual which has a schematic of the digital parts (in other words, everything up to the point I actually need the most) but it omits the analog part, saying to find it on "print D16". The DMR11 print set does show a circuit for this, but it's very different from what the DMC manual describes and it has some aspects that don't make much sense, like a "sine generator" in the output stage. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 11 16:37:19 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:37:19 -0700 Subject: DMC integral modem line card schematics In-Reply-To: <183D577F-EBD4-438E-ACB2-432D338628F5@comcast.net> References: <183D577F-EBD4-438E-ACB2-432D338628F5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <81daed9f-b041-cdb3-78bc-b91e7896668b@bitsavers.org> On 5/11/21 2:15 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a DMC11 integral modem line card schematics set? another set is up now on bitsavers as EY-D2104-HO-02_DMC11_Engineering_Drawings_1975.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 11 17:06:06 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:06:06 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <02f6d79d-9eb1-09e7-bfa4-010fd40b5960@bitsavers.org> On 5/11/21 11:23 AM, W2HX wrote: > In probably 30 years I've been repairing equipment and among the dozen or so electronics forums I belong to, you may be the first person I've run across to throw some shade on that product. https://www.hagensieker.com/wordpress/2018/06/18/deoxit-what-is-it-what-isnt-it/ and Ben synthesizes some corrosion inhibitor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpRrP3sqQLw From jsw at ieee.org Tue May 11 17:27:05 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 17:27:05 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS In-Reply-To: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> References: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <23676e7f-5272-08b8-619e-6d5442ad5a08@ieee.org> On 5/7/21 8:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for the VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have more than I thought). > > I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). > > Zane > If I had gone searching for it, I would have never found it.? As luck would have it, one just appeared while I was scrounging other things. Scan sent via pm. ?????? Jerry From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue May 11 17:43:01 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:43:01 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20210511154301.28b47aa1@asrock> I've been successfully using Deoxit and related products for many years, after I learned of them from government projects where I was a consultant. In a specific case: My PDP-8/E has 32K of core memory in four banks (original DEC). Several years ago, it developed random memory errors. I did all the usual things - made sure the OTT connectors and edge connectors were clean, that there was no observable "dirt" in the back-plane, etc. I reinstalled the memory - and it worked - for a while. Then the random error returned. Not often - but often enough to be irritating. I then used (sparingly) "ProGold" (now Deoxit Gold) on all the edge connectors. After re-installation, the memory was "perfect" (no diagnostic errors). Now some ten years later, I've never once experienced another memory error on my PDP-8/E. That was enough to convince me empirically that the product worked as advertised. Ever since that experience I've used Deoxit Gold on many pieces of test equipment and vintage computer gear and have never experienced anything but good results. Cheers, Lyle -- On Tue, 11 May 2021 18:23:53 +0000 W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Very interesting. In probably 30 years I've been repairing equipment and > among the dozen or so electronics forums I belong to, you may be the first > person I've run across to throw some shade on that product. I've never heard > any concerns or warnings about it. And there are some rather reputable > companies using it. Including HP, GE, Honeywell, Tektronix, etc. I feel I'm > in good enough company with those folks to continue using it. > > https://caig.com/all-testimonials/ > > But please share your experience with it so others can form their opinions. > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 1:12 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication > > > > I would suggest Caig > > I would suggest researching and understanding what their snake oil does > before using any Caig product. > > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 11 18:06:33 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 16:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: <02f6d79d-9eb1-09e7-bfa4-010fd40b5960@bitsavers.org> References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> <02f6d79d-9eb1-09e7-bfa4-010fd40b5960@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 May 2021, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.hagensieker.com/wordpress/2018/06/18/deoxit-what-is-it-what-isnt-it/ > and Ben synthesizes some corrosion inhibitor > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpRrP3sqQLw OK, so chemically, it's mostly lighter fluid, which does work well for such things. (-: But, surely, any good alchemist could come up with a spray that would turn lead solder into gold. And liberally spraying that through the vent slots and speaker grill of my childhood portable record player should make it sound as good as I remember it sounding when I was 8 years old. Just using a gold power cord wasn't enough. And WD-40 also wasn't enough. "Witchdoctor", "Purple People Eater", "Nash Rambler", "You Ain't Nothin' But A Hounddog" deserve the best sound quality possible! :-) From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 11 18:31:39 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 16:31:39 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect for VMS In-Reply-To: <23676e7f-5272-08b8-619e-6d5442ad5a08@ieee.org> References: <8359BCD5-739B-4D64-82E6-661032C81AE0@avanthar.com> <23676e7f-5272-08b8-619e-6d5442ad5a08@ieee.org> Message-ID: <8DE7704A-24F3-407A-B698-8EE10C76F795@avanthar.com> Awesome! Thank you, I?ve been trying to wrap my brain around how it could be done. Though after printing and cutting it out, it strikes me as a bit strange. It blocks F7-F20 on both the LK201 and the LK401. I would assume that they probably had a second template that was for the function keys. The online help makes it sound like there may have been 3 templates; edit key, numeric keypad, and function key. After seeing this, I have an idea for creating a better template, and might give it a go. Zane > On May 11, 2021, at 3:27 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > > On 5/7/21 8:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Strange question, does anyone happen to have the keyboard overlays for the VAX/VMS version of Word Perfect that they can photograph, or better yet scan? I have the manuals, and the green, red, and blue stickers on the VT keyboard, but no overlays. I *might* have the overlays, but I can?t find the the VT keyboard I?m thinking of (though after digging, I know I have more than I thought). >> >> I?m looking for the VT200/300 version (which should work for my LK401). >> >> Zane >> > > If I had gone searching for it, I would have never found it. As luck would have it, one just appeared while I was scrounging other things. > > Scan sent via pm. > > > Jerry > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue May 11 18:39:48 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 16:39:48 -0700 Subject: Restorations... Message-ID: <20210511163948.5a0b2625@asrock> Jim, I sent you an email to your jwsmail at jwsss.com mail account and haven't heard back from you, so thought I'd better try to reach you on cctalk! It's about potential restoration work needed in the LA area. Please get back to me privately. Sorry for the interruption of posting this to the cctalk list... Best, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 11 19:05:03 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 20:05:03 -0400 Subject: DMC integral modem line card schematics In-Reply-To: <81daed9f-b041-cdb3-78bc-b91e7896668b@bitsavers.org> References: <183D577F-EBD4-438E-ACB2-432D338628F5@comcast.net> <81daed9f-b041-cdb3-78bc-b91e7896668b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0575382B-A63A-4203-BBF6-9088AAA150F2@comcast.net> Great, thanks much! paul > On May 11, 2021, at 5:37 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/11/21 2:15 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone have a DMC11 integral modem line card schematics set? > > another set is up now on bitsavers as EY-D2104-HO-02_DMC11_Engineering_Drawings_1975.pdf > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 11 20:35:01 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 01:35:01 +0000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: <20210511154301.28b47aa1@asrock> References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> , <20210511154301.28b47aa1@asrock> Message-ID: We used to use DC #4. As an example, I had a ZX81. I added a RAM pack and had to be real careful about wiggling or moving the AX81. I put DC #4 on the pins. One could drop the computer with the RAM attached and it wouldn't lose a bit. I don't like deox as it has chemical actions that continue over time. DC #4 is totally inactive, although, it does leave a film of the filler over years after the silicon oil evaporates but is not that hard to clean. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Lyle Bickley via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 3:43 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: W2HX Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication I've been successfully using Deoxit and related products for many years, after I learned of them from government projects where I was a consultant. In a specific case: My PDP-8/E has 32K of core memory in four banks (original DEC). Several years ago, it developed random memory errors. I did all the usual things - made sure the OTT connectors and edge connectors were clean, that there was no observable "dirt" in the back-plane, etc. I reinstalled the memory - and it worked - for a while. Then the random error returned. Not often - but often enough to be irritating. I then used (sparingly) "ProGold" (now Deoxit Gold) on all the edge connectors. After re-installation, the memory was "perfect" (no diagnostic errors). Now some ten years later, I've never once experienced another memory error on my PDP-8/E. That was enough to convince me empirically that the product worked as advertised. Ever since that experience I've used Deoxit Gold on many pieces of test equipment and vintage computer gear and have never experienced anything but good results. Cheers, Lyle -- On Tue, 11 May 2021 18:23:53 +0000 W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Very interesting. In probably 30 years I've been repairing equipment and > among the dozen or so electronics forums I belong to, you may be the first > person I've run across to throw some shade on that product. I've never heard > any concerns or warnings about it. And there are some rather reputable > companies using it. Including HP, GE, Honeywell, Tektronix, etc. I feel I'm > in good enough company with those folks to continue using it. > > https://caig.com/all-testimonials/ > > But please share your experience with it so others can form their opinions. > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 1:12 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication > > > > I would suggest Caig > > I would suggest researching and understanding what their snake oil does > before using any Caig product. > > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lars at nocrew.org Wed May 12 00:11:30 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 05:11:30 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: (Mattis Lind via cctalk's message of "Mon, 10 May 2021 20:26:44 +0200") References: Message-ID: <7w8s4kzgcd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> There are also at least two GT40 implementations of Spacewar. One from MIT, by Dick Waters, and another from SAIL, by Bo Eross. They run fine on SIMH, but it would be nice to see them on real hardware too. From steven at malikoff.com Wed May 12 00:17:26 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 15:17:26 +1000 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan said > Just curious; have you thought of adding VSXXX-?? mouse emulation, using input from either USB or PS/2 mouse? > With a mini-DIN output? These are becoming hard to find (aside perhaps from our Australian member who mentions having them by the kg). Said Australian member here... I did indeed mention it. Here is a photo of exactly 3kg of DEC VSXXX-GA mice: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/VS-XXX-GA_mice_3kg.jpg I'm not sure what I'll do with them. I'll keep some for my pile of DEC workstations. Trade perhaps? I haven't tested them yet. Steve. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 12 00:18:19 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 01:18:19 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: <7w8s4kzgcd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7w8s4kzgcd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 1:11 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > There are also at least two GT40 implementations of Spacewar. One from > MIT, by Dick Waters, and another from SAIL, by Bo Eross. They run fine > on SIMH, but it would be nice to see them on real hardware too. Is there a web page I could check that would include the hardware requirements? I don't have a GT40, but I have a VT11 (4-slot backplane and cards) and an assortment of Unibus PDP-11 processors (11/04 or 11/34 would be the easiest to configure, but I have others). I don't have the keyboard, lightpen or a tube yet. -ethan From doug at doughq.com Wed May 12 00:44:49 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 15:44:49 +1000 Subject: Apple II PSU In-Reply-To: References: <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765.ref@yahoo.com> <8151cde7bb8a721b87d735ceda82e765@yahoo.com> <879258FA-99A5-4573-AE57-F327A7D3F6EA@gmail.com> <81c563f33534e69eb69070d6cb2500f3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dwight. That smells like one of the Rifa caps. Thick brown smoke. Or was it one of the big electros? On Wed, 12 May 2021, 12:59 am dwight via cctalk, wrote: > The rivets are likely more of a safety thing than an issue warrantee > repair thing. The inside of a Apple II is intended to have user access. The > switching supply has 300 to 400V DC inside. Definitely a potential lethal > hazard. > I hate those filter caps. I had one go at the last Maker Faire ( no more > ? ). I was trying out the Oregon trail when the nasty smoke started > pouring out. Luckily we had a drill handy to remove the rivets. > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of David Williams > via cctalk > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 5:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Apple II PSU > > On 2021-05-10 18:18, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > This area is so backward, that metric drill bits are considered > > esoteric! > > > > 1/8" works OK, and will chuck in a Dremel. > > > > If it were a damaged screw, rather than a rivet, I would use a > > left-handed drill bit. > > Which is pretty much what I ended up with. Surprised that this unit > looks in such good shape inside, I expected to see it already exploded. > > Well time to get to work on it now and see if I can't get a working unit > out of it. > > David Williams > www.trailingedge.com > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed May 12 00:53:41 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 22:53:41 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: References: <7w8s4kzgcd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <74f29a00-cbb7-9aac-334a-16e4eaf301bd@jwsss.com> On 5/11/2021 10:18 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I don't have the keyboard, lightpen or a tube yet. to run lunar lander, you do that thru the switches.? We never used a keyboard or lightpen.? just had an ASR33 to load lander while I had charge of it. I don't know previous use, but it had 3 years of landers, LEM bases, and all but obliterated the McDonalds when I got it.? I was there 8 months and never reloaded it. Someone had left it on one night and there was a phosphor burn in the middle right of the tube.? They had a factory replacement from DEC should I have had someone want to really use it. This was at USL, in Lafayette, LA.? Toy stash was a Microdata 3200 / 32/S (now an exhibit at the CHM), the GT40, two IBM 1620s, and access to the campus multics and RCA Spectra 70.? Spent most time on the multics and in the lab with the good stuff. I saw you thanked BK for your career, i went to Microdata and worked in parallel with him on an OS stealing ideas from his and DMR's unix writings and other stuff.? Only got access to Unix when three off us formed a group and bought a developer license SCO license. I'd love go get what he has for I/O added to a Unibone, seems like one could do it with an arduino or teensy and a bit of finagling. Could also use beaglebone DAC ports possibly, or emulate the DEC hardware and interface a higher resolution set of DACs for the task. thanks Jim From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Tue May 11 17:41:44 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:41:44 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 80, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/11/2021 10:29 AM, Mark Matlock wrote: > Vince, > I recently had Shapeways 3D print some of your card handles in Nylon 12. > They call Nylon 12 ?versatile plastic? on their web site and they use a laser sintering > process for fabrication. I used the card handles on my QBone and UniBone boards > which makes them MUCH easier to insert and pull. The Nylon 12 seems to be > quite tough and I used 3mm x 6mm long screws to fasten them. Shapeways > charged $5.00 each plus shipping to make them. Yeah, those Shapeway parts turn out nicely, and you can even get loud primary colors for a little extra :-). > Thanks for the great 3D design! Glad to hear it and you are welcome! Vince From lars at nocrew.org Wed May 12 04:37:18 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 09:37:18 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 SPACEWAR running again! In-Reply-To: (Ethan Dicks's message of "Wed, 12 May 2021 01:18:19 -0400") References: <7w8s4kzgcd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wwns4xpgx.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> There are also at least two GT40 implementations of Spacewar. > > Is there a web page I could check that would include the hardware > requirements? I don't have a GT40, but I have a VT11 (4-slot > backplane and cards) and an assortment of Unibus PDP-11 processors > (11/04 or 11/34 would be the easiest to configure, but I have others). > I don't have the keyboard, lightpen or a tube yet. Sorry, there is no web page. But the games only require the VT11, and a keyboard which is attached to the standard console input so any ASCII sender is usable. They don't use a light pen. For more serious computing, there is also a terminal emulator compatible a Datapoint 3300 which requires a DL11 to talk to a host. From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed May 12 06:05:57 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 07:05:57 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <302b01d7471e$c94b8680$5be29380$@gmail.com> Heading back to the OP topic, lubrication and reduction in insertion force (given presumptively clean contacts), I've read good things about NyoGel 760G Dielectric Synthetic Grease. "Used for lubrication and protection of electrical contacts." Safety sheet: https://www.nyelubricants.com/datasheet/SDS_US_English_NYOGEL+760G.pdf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 11:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication What is the best type of lubricant for Omnibus backplanes? It can be a struggle to insert and remove PDP-8/e boards into the Omnibus. There is a risk of damage to the brittle bakelite connector housings on the Omnibus PCB. Traditional contact sprays should work but have two problems: 1) they remain wet and over time will attract and retain dust 2) the solvent and lubricant *may* weaken or attack the bakelite There are some PTFE (Teflon) based lubricant sprays which create a dry film. Would this type of spray work? Any suggestions on what I could use that reduces the strain on the Omnibus and the PCBs during insertion/removal without creating new problems? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter From mdehling at gmail.com Wed May 12 07:52:26 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 14:52:26 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> References: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> Message-ID: <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> (I had accidentally sent my reply below only to Antonio. I'm resending it to the list.) > On 10/05/2021 10:05, Malte Dehling wrote: > > Thanks a lot, Antonio, these are very valuable to have! > I've only checked a couple of them under SIMH, so it would be helpful to > know if I need to check my workflow or not. > > I think uploading them to archive.org would be a good long-term > > solution. I can take care of it if you don't have an account. > > Please do. Thanks. Will do. I'll let you know. > In other news, I polished the MAR-1989 CONOLD, which looked very bad, to > start with. Amazingly it buffed up quite nicely and then read surprisingly > well: > > [ > > $ ddrescue -r5 -v /dev/sr1 CDROM-AG-NC67A-RE-1989-03-VMS-CONOLD.iso > CDROM-AG-NC67A-RE-1989-03-VMS-CONOLD.map > GNU ddrescue 1.23 > About to copy 205199 kBytes from '/dev/sr1' to > 'CDROM-AG-NC67A-RE-1989-03-VMS-CONOLD.iso' > ??? Starting positions: infile = 0 B,? outfile = 0 B > ??? Copy block size: 128 sectors?????? Initial skip size: 128 sectors > Sector size: 512 Bytes > > Press Ctrl-C to interrupt > ???? ipos:? 205198 kB, non-trimmed:??????? 0 B,? current rate:?????? 0 B/s > ???? opos:? 205198 kB, non-scraped:??????? 0 B,? average rate: 637 kB/s > non-tried:??????? 0 B,? bad-sector:???? 2048 B,??? error rate: 170 B/s > ? rescued:? 205197 kB,?? bad areas:??????? 1,??????? run time:????? 5m 22s > pct rescued:?? 99.99%, read errors:?????? 25,? remaining time:???????? n/a > ????????????????????????????? time since last successful read:????? 2m? 1s > Finished > ] > > > So I went ahead and tried the CONDIST from MAY-1989. That too now can be > read, although it is proving a somewhat tougher nut to crack: > > [ > > $ ddrescue -r5 -v /dev/sr1 CDROM-AG-MN36D-RE-1989-05-VMS-CONDIST.iso > CDROM-AG-MN36D-RE-1989-05-VMS-CONDIST.map > GNU ddrescue 1.23 > About to copy 623247 kBytes from '/dev/sr1' to > 'CDROM-AG-MN36D-RE-1989-05-VMS-CONDIST.iso' > ??? Starting positions: infile = 0 B,? outfile = 0 B > ??? Copy block size: 128 sectors?????? Initial skip size: 128 sectors > Sector size: 512 Bytes > > Press Ctrl-C to interrupt > ???? ipos:??? 5919 kB, non-trimmed:??????? 0 B,? current rate:?????? 0 B/s > ???? opos:??? 5919 kB, non-scraped:?? 11127 kB,? average rate: 14694 B/s > non-tried:??????? 0 B,? bad-sector:??? 2843 kB,??? error rate:????? 85 B/s > ? rescued:? 609276 kB,?? bad areas:????? 445,??????? run time: 11h 31m? 2s > pct rescued:?? 97.75%, read errors:???? 5884,? remaining time:? 5d 23h 43m > ????????????????????????????? time since last successful read:????? 2m 45s > Scraping failed blocks... (forwards)??? ] > > > On the plus side, that's 97.75% more data than I had before :-) but the > "remaining time" looks like it could be the rest of the week (it varies > quite a bit). > > > I think, from reading the manual, that I can use CTRL-C and restart this > again later and it will pick up where it left off using the map file. Is > this right? Very nice, this worked much better than I had expected! And you're right, you can simply CTRL-C and restart ddrescue with the same command (i.e., with the iso and map file; different options should work.) I would make a copy of the files before restarting, just in case. > Are there any other options I should consider trying? Can you try with "-b 2048 -d" for direct disc access and maybe once more with "-R" for reverse? > Another thought is that perhaps a shade more polishing might help. If I > polish the CDROM a little more and then resume the ddrescue, I think I won't > be any worse off than I am now, i.e. all existing data will still be there > and all I'll be risking is data that maybe would have eventually read before > but now may not read at all. Is that right? Successful reads are now ~20m > apart, so I suspect that the remaining data will be quite difficult to > recover. After trying the various options on the disk in its current state, I see no harm in trying this approach. With the map file, ddrescue should never overwrite already-read data. Again, I would make a copy to be safe. Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From mdehling at gmail.com Wed May 12 07:58:09 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 14:58:09 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> References: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> Message-ID: <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 02:52:26PM +0200, Malte Dehling wrote: > > On 10/05/2021 10:05, Malte Dehling wrote: > > > I think uploading them to archive.org would be a good long-term > > > solution. I can take care of it if you don't have an account. > > > > Please do. Thanks. > > Will do. I'll let you know. Here are the links to the relevant archive.org uploads: https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 https://archive.org/details/vms-ad-condist-1989-07 https://archive.org/details/vms-condist-1989-07 https://archive.org/details/vms-condist-1989-11 https://archive.org/details/digital-standards-1993-03 Let me know what you think! Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 12 08:43:36 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 06:43:36 -0700 Subject: Has anyone heard from Paxton Hoag ? Message-ID: Josh and I have been trying to contact him for a couple of years now. Has anyone been in contact with him? From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 12 09:05:57 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 07:05:57 -0700 Subject: Has anyone heard from Paxton Hoag ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He posted to this list on April 21st of last year. At that point he was still in Astoria, Oregon. Zane > On May 12, 2021, at 6:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Josh and I have been trying to contact him for a couple of years now. > Has anyone been in contact with him? From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed May 12 10:02:38 2021 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 15:02:38 +0000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: <02f6d79d-9eb1-09e7-bfa4-010fd40b5960@bitsavers.org> References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> <02f6d79d-9eb1-09e7-bfa4-010fd40b5960@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Ok, good article. From what I read, there are some things it doesn?t do. Author states "What it will not do. IT WILL NOT REMOVE RUST. IT WILL NOT REMOVE OXIDATION" cool beans. He also states that it isn?t as good as military products for aluminum salt fog. I hope the Op wasn?t planning to use his PDP-8/E in a salt fog. And the author indicates probably won't make your stereo sound better (or at least as good as the oxygenated copper power cord for $250). The OP wasn?t looking for rust removal or oxidation removal, so what it lacks doesn?t seem to disadvantage the op. In addition, the author says the product is good for many things, lubrication was one of them and apparently lighter fluid is excellent for corrosion prevention. Hardly seems like snake oil based on the author's article. Seems more like a product very similar (but perhaps not as good) as military products he's used. Ok. All in all, the author seems to indicate this might be a good product for the problem the OP was experiencing. The author simply rebuffs the argument made on audiophile websites indicating it is the miracle cure, which I think most rational people would agree on. So unless I misread the article, I'm still happy with my suggestion to the op. 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 6:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication On 5/11/21 11:23 AM, W2HX wrote: > In probably 30 years I've been repairing equipment and among the dozen or so electronics forums I belong to, you may be the first person I've run across to throw some shade on that product. https://www.hagensieker.com/wordpress/2018/06/18/deoxit-what-is-it-what-isnt-it/ and Ben synthesizes some corrosion inhibitor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpRrP3sqQLw From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 12 10:31:31 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 08:31:31 -0700 Subject: Has anyone heard from Paxton Hoag ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/12/21 7:05 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > He posted to this list on April 21st of last year. At that point he was still in Astoria, Oregon. That's good. There are some Tek computers he has that have been in limbo for years. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 12 11:53:27 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 12:53:27 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On May 12, 2021, at 1:17 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > Jonathan said >> Just curious; have you thought of adding VSXXX-?? mouse emulation, using input from either USB or PS/2 mouse? >> With a mini-DIN output? These are becoming hard to find (aside perhaps from our Australian member who mentions having them by the kg). > > Said Australian member here... I did indeed mention it. Here is a photo of exactly 3kg of DEC VSXXX-GA mice: > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/VS-XXX-GA_mice_3kg.jpg I remember those. I thought Jonathan was talking about the round ones, but I suppose the protocol is identical. There was also a tablet, same interface I believe. I used one of those to trace some topo maps. Does anyone know of protocol documentation for these devices? paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 12 12:12:04 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 18:12:04 +0100 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <254ce03f-3696-e361-4c1b-8620f64aff25@ntlworld.com> On 12/05/2021 17:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I remember those. I thought Jonathan was talking about the round ones, but I suppose the protocol is identical. There was also a tablet, same interface I believe. I used one of those to trace some topo maps. > > Does anyone know of protocol documentation for these devices? > > paul > > The normal mouse specs are in VCB02 Video Subsystem Technical Manual, EK-104AA-TM-001 (appendix C). The LK201 is in there too. I think I have one of those mice with the non-round connector, but I also have a MIPS DECstation that I now suspect needs it :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 12 12:31:13 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 11:31:13 -0600 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: <254ce03f-3696-e361-4c1b-8620f64aff25@ntlworld.com> References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> <254ce03f-3696-e361-4c1b-8620f64aff25@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 11:12 AM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/05/2021 17:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I remember those. I thought Jonathan was talking about the round ones, > but I suppose the protocol is identical. There was also a tablet, same > interface I believe. I used one of those to trace some topo maps. > > > > Does anyone know of protocol documentation for these devices? > > > > paul > > > > > The normal mouse specs are in VCB02 Video Subsystem Technical Manual, > EK-104AA-TM-001 (appendix C). > > The LK201 is in there too. > > > I think I have one of those mice with the non-round connector, but I > also have a MIPS DECstation that I now suspect needs it :-) > Is that the same one the DEC Rainbow needs for DECwindows? Warner From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 12 12:47:20 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 13:47:20 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: <254ce03f-3696-e361-4c1b-8620f64aff25@ntlworld.com> References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> <254ce03f-3696-e361-4c1b-8620f64aff25@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On May 12, 2021, at 1:12 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/05/2021 17:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I remember those. I thought Jonathan was talking about the round ones, but I suppose the protocol is identical. There was also a tablet, same interface I believe. I used one of those to trace some topo maps. >> >> Does anyone know of protocol documentation for these devices? >> >> paul >> >> > The normal mouse specs are in VCB02 Video Subsystem Technical Manual, EK-104AA-TM-001 (appendix C). > > The LK201 is in there too. Got it, thanks. 8 bits plus parity, you don't see that very often. A quick scan confirms that this would be doable. It's a fair amount of new software, plus a different host connection. 7 pin mini-DIN connectors are readily available so the simplest answer would be to put such a connector on the board and rely on a cable with connectors at both ends, but I don't know how hard those are to find. As I said before, I'm not likely to do such a project, but anyone who's interested can use the existing designs as a starting point. paul From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Wed May 12 14:04:05 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 19:04:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard In-Reply-To: <254ce03f-3696-e361-4c1b-8620f64aff25@ntlworld.com> References: <210347354.1274892.1620760624584@mail.yahoo.com> <254ce03f-3696-e361-4c1b-8620f64aff25@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <42660990.1716509.1620846245889@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, May 12, 2021, 10:12:15 AM PDT, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: On 12/05/2021 17:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The normal mouse specs are in VCB02 Video Subsystem Technical Manual, > EK-104AA-TM-001 (appendix C). > >The LK201 is in there too. It's possibly in the VCB01 docs;. Decades ago in New Zealand I had a Vaxstation II/RC with QVSS. The kernel, user-mapped producer/consumer ringbuffer code with hardware-to-X-event is the same for both. On NetBSD, probably microvax 3x00 and DECstation/turbochannelAlpha, too. I know I'used both two-roller and one-ball "puck" mice on a mix while in grad school. >I think I have one of those mice with the non-round connector, but I >also have a MIPS DECstation that I now suspect needs it :-) The Personal Decstation (5000 /20, /25, /33, and /50) need an "access.bus" mouse, 8-pin but with latches on the side. flatter than RJ-45. VSXXX-BB? All other DECstations use the same round mini-DIN as QVSS/QDSS, via the 15-pin to MMJ/mini-DIN cable. Oddly enough I saw a PS2 keyboard-and-mouse to LK201/VSXXX adapter for sale on eBay, but it's US $350 or thereabouts. From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu May 13 01:00:46 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 23:00:46 -0700 Subject: MOPPY..... Message-ID: Which is closer to being vintage, the sounds made, or the floppy disk drives themselves? Moppy + Star Wars Theme = Floppy Vader's Theme https://youtu.be/LdgzsF_O7oI Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don't have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don't." --Jonathan Winters From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu May 13 01:27:06 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 14:27:06 +0800 Subject: MOPPY..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is a somewhat advanced version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oym7B7YidKs Enjoy Tom Hunter On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 2:00 PM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Which is closer to being vintage, the sounds made, or the floppy disk > drives > themselves? > > Moppy + Star Wars Theme = Floppy Vader's Theme > https://youtu.be/LdgzsF_O7oI > > > > Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. > http://hammondorganservice.com > Hammond USA warranty service > "Most people don't have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they > don't." --Jonathan Winters > > > > > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu May 13 01:47:56 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 14:47:56 +0800 Subject: MOPPY..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And some more truly amazing stuff: "House of the Rising Sun": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL5NlEwDoPs "Sweet Dreams": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGfkPCZYfFw "The Final Countdown" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-X-p0C0Uas "Eye of the Tiger": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m9OgVkAbE8 "Beat it": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B522GbH3D8 "Don't stop me now": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1DsULv6mE4 Enjoy Tom Hunter On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 2:27 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > Here is a somewhat advanced version: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oym7B7YidKs > > Enjoy > Tom Hunter > > On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 2:00 PM D. Resor via cctalk > wrote: > >> Which is closer to being vintage, the sounds made, or the floppy disk >> drives >> themselves? >> >> Moppy + Star Wars Theme = Floppy Vader's Theme >> https://youtu.be/LdgzsF_O7oI >> >> >> >> Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. >> http://hammondorganservice.com >> Hammond USA warranty service >> "Most people don't have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they >> don't." --Jonathan Winters >> >> >> >> >> >> From rice43 at btinternet.com Thu May 13 04:28:11 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 10:28:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: MOPPY..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76f19ee1.3441e.179650e1071.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> You missed my favorite... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNTtR6ZpUOo At Doom's Gate (Doom soundtrack) Cheers Josh Rice From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu May 13 04:34:20 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 17:34:20 +0800 Subject: MOPPY..... In-Reply-To: <76f19ee1.3441e.179650e1071.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> References: <76f19ee1.3441e.179650e1071.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Clearly we have different music tastes. ;-) On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 5:28 PM Joshua Rice wrote: > You missed my favorite... > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNTtR6ZpUOo At Doom's Gate (Doom > soundtrack) > > Cheers > > Josh Rice > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu May 13 07:05:18 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 20:05:18 +0800 Subject: MOPPY..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok here is the last example of stepper motor abuse (my favourite): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YFajoHbdtM Enjoy Tom Hunter On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:06 PM D. Resor wrote: > The secret life of machines?.continues?.. > > > > > > Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. > > http://hammondorganservice.com > Hammond USA warranty service > "Most people don?t have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they > don?t." --Jonathan Winters > > > > > > > > *From:* Tom Hunter > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 12, 2021 11:27 PM > *To:* D. Resor ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > *Subject:* Re: MOPPY..... > > > > Here is a somewhat advanced version: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oym7B7YidKs > > > > Enjoy > > Tom Hunter > > > > On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 2:00 PM D. Resor via cctalk > wrote: > > Which is closer to being vintage, the sounds made, or the floppy disk > drives > themselves? > > Moppy + Star Wars Theme = Floppy Vader's Theme > https://youtu.be/LdgzsF_O7oI > > > > Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. > http://hammondorganservice.com > Hammond USA warranty service > "Most people don't have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they > don't." --Jonathan Winters > > > > > From als at thangorodrim.ch Thu May 13 08:42:13 2021 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 15:42:13 +0200 Subject: 920M - and also the Argus 200 / 700 In-Reply-To: References: <180E363F-A630-45F3-9756-4AA3A37DAE4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210513134213.GA1490@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 10:01:22AM +0200, jos via cctalk wrote: > Yep, Europe was also active at the time. > > in the UK around 1960 the Argus 200 was developed to control the Bristol Bloodhound anti-aircraft rocket. This computer was one of the very first transistor-based control computers. > > In Switzerland the Bloodhound was on duty? until 1999 ! One of the sites, once top secret,? is now a museum, and well worth a visit. > > Check out https://www.museums.ch/org/de/Bloodhound-Lenkwaffenstellung There is also https://www.afc-fliegermuseum.ch/en/ which has a Bloodhound on display as well as the electronics cabinets of the radar installation behind it, if I remember correctly. Of course they also have tons of stuff that flies (starting with balloons and ending with jets) as well as stuff designed to stop flying stuff from doing so. At the bottom of the photos on https://www.afc-fliegermuseum.ch/en/image-gallery/hall-2/ you can see the Bloodhound in the foreground and its operator console in the background. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu May 13 06:06:51 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 04:06:51 -0700 Subject: MOPPY..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The secret life of machines?.continues?.. Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don?t have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don?t." --Jonathan Winters From: Tom Hunter Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 11:27 PM To: D. Resor ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MOPPY..... Here is a somewhat advanced version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oym7B7YidKs Enjoy Tom Hunter On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 2:00 PM D. Resor via cctalk > wrote: Which is closer to being vintage, the sounds made, or the floppy disk drives themselves? Moppy + Star Wars Theme = Floppy Vader's Theme https://youtu.be/LdgzsF_O7oI Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://hammondorganservice.com Hammond USA warranty service "Most people don't have a sense of humor. They think they do, but they don't." --Jonathan Winters From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 13 14:18:33 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 20:18:33 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> References: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> Message-ID: On 12/05/2021 13:58, Malte Dehling wrote: > > Here are the links to the relevant archive.org uploads: > > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 > https://archive.org/details/vms-ad-condist-1989-07 > https://archive.org/details/vms-condist-1989-07 > https://archive.org/details/vms-condist-1989-11 > https://archive.org/details/digital-standards-1993-03 > > Let me know what you think! Thanks. Nice work, particularly grouping them together, pulling out the JPEGs and seemingly mounting them to suck out the CD_CONTENTS.DAT! As a reward for your hard work here are a few more for you :-) I've now uploaded ag-nc67a-re.tar.xz, ag-mn36d-re.tar.xz and ag-pcy4c-xe.tar.xz. These are: AG-NC67A-RE - VMS Online Documentation Library??????? 1989-03 Disc 1 of 1 AG-MN36D-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-05 Disc 1 of 1 AG-PCY4C-XE - InfoServer V2.0 Software Base Level 10? 1991-11 Disc 1 of 1 AG-MN36D-RE in particular took over 5 days to rescue. In the end it managed 99.41% and couldn't get any more data off the CDROM when run with -R. So, despite the internet saying use 2000 and 3000 grit sandpaper, I went against all the advice and recklessly tried a seven minute does of 1500 frit sandpaper, followed by the usual vigorous polishing. I've included a "before" image of the rear (non-label) side of the CDROM and a triangular "blemish" is clearly visible near the centre and extending out into the data region. 2000 grit didn't touch it, I could still feel it afterwards with my fingernail. 1500 grit wiped it away completely and ddrescue got to work immediately and took just 10 minutes or so to recover the missing data (apart from 4096 bytes). I had previously tried the image out using SIMH back when it was at a mere 99% and it mounted happily (although it complained that it could not find the alternate home block). I copied all the files to NLA0: and there were no errors. I don't think that means that all the data blocks were good (since VMS would have no way to tell) but there were no errors noted in the filesystem structures, so that's at least some comfort. I haven't tried BACKUP/ANALYZE on all the savesets but that might be one way to test the integrity of those files. The InfoServer CDROM I included because it has some nice cover art with (I presume) the faces of five of the develpment team. Anyone know who they are? I suspect that if you really want to use an Infoserver you might be better off with the most up to date version on the most recent OpenVMS Freeware release. Incidentally, I'm currently working through my OpenVMS VAX (and a few Alpha) CONDIST CDROMs and pulling out all the CD_CONTENTS.DAT so I can put together a script to build a list of which sets hold any given version of a product. So if anyone has any missing sets, and wants to supply some, please do. This will all end up on github eventually. To save you some time, for versions sometime before MAR-1992, you need the CD_CONTENTS.DAT from every disc in the set as they each contain details of only the products on that disc. Beyond that data the format changed and the contents are identical on each disc. The old style looks like this: LABEL CD_BIN_92932 %TYPE CONDIST ! ! NOVEMBER CONDIST: DISC 2 OF 2 ! !PRODUCT NAME UPI INST VERSION KIT CH DIS ROOT SAVESET(S) and the new style looks like this: %DISC_PRODUCT_NAME1 VMS Consolidated %DISC_PRODUCT_NAME2 Software Distribution %KIT_PART_NUMBER QA-VWJ8A-A8. U01 %SPINE_PART_NUMBER AV-MN37Y-RE ! %DISC_PART_NUMBER AG-MN36Y-RE,AG-PASMS-RE,AG-PCXXM-RE,AG-PFXCJ-RE,AG-PJ4YD-RE,AG-PNTPA-RE %DFARS Y I already have 1989-05/07/11, 1992-03/05/07/09/11, 1994-11, 1995-01, 1996-03/06/09/12, 1997-03/06/09/12 and 1998-03, so anything else (or anything from any Alpha CONDIST release) would be cool. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From matt at 9track.net Thu May 13 18:19:10 2021 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 00:19:10 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> Message-ID: <56fd0de8-c9af-d0ef-27e8-eb2e92fc5e0a@9track.net> On 13/05/2021 20:18, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > Incidentally, I'm currently working through my OpenVMS VAX (and a few > Alpha) CONDIST CDROMs and pulling out all the CD_CONTENTS.DAT so I can > put together a script to build a list of which sets hold any given > version of a product. You might want to have a look at http://de.openvms.org/spl.php Some time ago I made a copy of this data in an SQLite database which I've added some more entries to. You can download it here: http://www.9track.net/bits/dec/vms/spl.db.bz2 You can see the entries I've added with SELECT * FROM spl WHERE rowid > 41236; Regards, Matt From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu May 13 20:02:43 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 18:02:43 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <56fd0de8-c9af-d0ef-27e8-eb2e92fc5e0a@9track.net> References: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <56fd0de8-c9af-d0ef-27e8-eb2e92fc5e0a@9track.net> Message-ID: <3C076FE4-5265-4801-825F-2A0D03CE4570@avanthar.com> > On May 13, 2021, at 4:19 PM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > > On 13/05/2021 20:18, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> Incidentally, I'm currently working through my OpenVMS VAX (and a few >> Alpha) CONDIST CDROMs and pulling out all the CD_CONTENTS.DAT so I can >> put together a script to build a list of which sets hold any given >> version of a product. > > You might want to have a look at http://de.openvms.org/spl.php > > Some time ago I made a copy of this data in an SQLite database which > I've added some more entries to. You can download it here: > > http://www.9track.net/bits/dec/vms/spl.db.bz2 > > You can see the entries I've added with > > SELECT * FROM spl WHERE rowid > 41236; > > Regards, > > Matt That is INCREDIBLY useful. Especially when trying to figure out which SPL?s will have copies of the version you want. In fact it looks like I need to update at least a couple things. The joke is I?ve had the SPL with the kits for probably 15+ years. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 14 03:40:34 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 09:40:34 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <56fd0de8-c9af-d0ef-27e8-eb2e92fc5e0a@9track.net> References: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <56fd0de8-c9af-d0ef-27e8-eb2e92fc5e0a@9track.net> Message-ID: On 14/05/2021 00:19, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > You might want to have a look at http://de.openvms.org/spl.php Thanks, that looks really useful. I'll have to work out which updates to send him. > Some time ago I made a copy of this data in an SQLite database which > I've added some more entries to. You can download it here: > > http://www.9track.net/bits/dec/vms/spl.db.bz2 Thanks. > You can see the entries I've added with > > SELECT * FROM spl WHERE rowid > 41236; > Now I just need to read up on SQLite :) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From mdehling at gmail.com Fri May 14 04:30:55 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 11:30:55 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <56fd0de8-c9af-d0ef-27e8-eb2e92fc5e0a@9track.net> Message-ID: <20210514093055.kgtctzzkxw6adhpn@x230> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:40:34AM +0100, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 14/05/2021 00:19, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > > You might want to have a look at http://de.openvms.org/spl.php > > Thanks, that looks really useful. I'll have to work out which updates to > send him. I talked to him a while ago and I've sent him the cd_contents.dat files for your first round of uploads already (which is what he needs to update the database.) I'll send him the newer ones, too. Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From mdehling at gmail.com Fri May 14 04:47:09 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 11:47:09 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> Message-ID: <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 08:18:33PM +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 12/05/2021 13:58, Malte Dehling wrote: > > > > Here are the links to the relevant archive.org uploads: > > > > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 > > https://archive.org/details/vms-ad-condist-1989-07 > > https://archive.org/details/vms-condist-1989-07 > > https://archive.org/details/vms-condist-1989-11 > > https://archive.org/details/digital-standards-1993-03 > > > > Let me know what you think! > > Thanks. Nice work, particularly grouping them together, pulling out the > JPEGs and seemingly mounting them to suck out the CD_CONTENTS.DAT! > > As a reward for your hard work here are a few more for you :-) > > I've now uploaded ag-nc67a-re.tar.xz, ag-mn36d-re.tar.xz and > ag-pcy4c-xe.tar.xz. > > These are: > > AG-NC67A-RE - VMS Online Documentation Library??????? 1989-03 Disc 1 of 1 > AG-MN36D-RE - VMS Consolidated Software Distribution? 1989-05 Disc 1 of 1 > AG-PCY4C-XE - InfoServer V2.0 Software Base Level 10? 1991-11 Disc 1 of 1 Perfect! Thanks so much :-) The first two are now also on archive, the InfoServer CD will follow soon: https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 https://archive.org/details/vms-condist-1989-05 I plan on updating the description for the CONOLD CDs with a list of the books included. That probably means writing a script to extract that information from the DECW$BOOKSHELF files. > AG-MN36D-RE in particular took over 5 days to rescue. In the end it managed > 99.41% and couldn't get any more data off the CDROM when run with -R. So, > despite the internet saying use 2000 and 3000 grit sandpaper, I went against > all the advice and recklessly tried a seven minute does of 1500 frit > sandpaper, followed by the usual vigorous polishing. I've included a > "before" image of the rear (non-label) side of the CDROM and a triangular > "blemish" is clearly visible near the centre and extending out into the data > region. 2000 grit didn't touch it, I could still feel it afterwards with my > fingernail. 1500 grit wiped it away completely and ddrescue got to work > immediately and took just 10 minutes or so to recover the missing data > (apart from 4096 bytes). Wow, thanks a lot! You are putting in some serious effort here! I'm glad this worked so well :-) Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 14 05:08:43 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 11:08:43 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> References: <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> Message-ID: <4e72edbf-7e8a-18ec-180e-fbd66b2c73da@ntlworld.com> On 14/05/2021 10:47, Malte Dehling wrote: > > Perfect! Thanks so much :-) The first two are now also on archive, the > InfoServer CD will follow soon: > Excellent. > I plan on updating the description for the CONOLD CDs with a list of the > books included. That probably means writing a script to extract that > information from the DECW$BOOKSHELF files. I did look at the CONOLD and there didn't seem to be anything that would help (other than the bookshelf files). There was the VTBOOK software on a DECUS release many years ago. It got stomped on for a while and then DEC gave up the fight against PDF and (I think) VTBOOK made it to the Freeware CD. That might help in working out the format. > > Wow, thanks a lot! You are putting in some serious effort here! I'm > glad this worked so well :-) I rather suspect that if I'd stopped the initial ddrescue when it was at 99% and just gone straight to the 1500 grit sandpaper, then I could have saved my DVD-RW a few days of work. I've just catalogued the VAX CONDIST/CONOLD sets I have and it comes in at 14 or so. I'm hoping that someone tells me that they're already archived before I start on those :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri May 14 07:40:51 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 05:40:51 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <4e72edbf-7e8a-18ec-180e-fbd66b2c73da@ntlworld.com> References: <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <4e72edbf-7e8a-18ec-180e-fbd66b2c73da@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6809764A-F22F-4005-A269-0B20CFE97599@avanthar.com> > On May 14, 2021, at 3:08 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > There was the VTBOOK software on a DECUS release many years ago. It got stomped on for a while and then DEC gave up the fight against PDF and (I think) VTBOOK made it to the Freeware CD. That might help in working out the format. Much to my surprise, I think I?m actually more interested in the Online Doc Library from ?89 than in the CONDIST?s. It immediately made me think of VTBOOK. As of tomorrow, I?ll be on an 8-week Sabbatical, and I?m going to have to see about putting that Doc Library on PDXVAX, when taking a break from other projects. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 14 07:45:22 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 07:45:22 -0500 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20210514125938.4C58E4E95B@mx2.ezwind.net> At 12:03 PM 4/17/2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >Do you have access to a Record Store that deals in used CDs? I know one of our local ones used to have a machine for resurfacing CDs, at the time, I didn???t need to make use of the service. Another option might be used Video Game stores. In the USA, it is not uncommon that a public library would have such a CD/DVD rescue machine, too. Ask a librarian. - John From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri May 14 08:43:52 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 06:43:52 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210514125938.4C58E4E95B@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> <20210514125938.4C58E4E95B@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3193E610-E010-49E7-B5A6-BAE43C19FD5C@avanthar.com> > On May 14, 2021, at 5:45 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 12:03 PM 4/17/2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Do you have access to a Record Store that deals in used CDs? I know one of our local ones used to have a machine for resurfacing CDs, at the time, I didn???t need to make use of the service. Another option might be used Video Game stores. > > In the USA, it is not uncommon that a public library would have > such a CD/DVD rescue machine, too. Ask a librarian. That?s an interesting point, they?d basically have to have one, at least in the same system as they are. I forget that Libraries are more about optical discs than books these days. :-( Of course I mainly forget that because I have more books on any topic that interests me, than our local library system. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 14 09:16:39 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 15:16:39 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <6809764A-F22F-4005-A269-0B20CFE97599@avanthar.com> References: <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <4e72edbf-7e8a-18ec-180e-fbd66b2c73da@ntlworld.com> <6809764A-F22F-4005-A269-0B20CFE97599@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 14/05/2021 13:40, Zane Healy wrote: > Much to my surprise, I think I?m actually more interested in the Online Doc Library from ?89 than in the CONDIST?s. It immediately made me think of VTBOOK. As of tomorrow, I?ll be on an 8-week Sabbatical, and I?m going to have to see about putting that Doc Library on PDXVAX, when taking a break from other projects. > > Zane I don't know how to programmatically check that the data blocks in that ISO are valid (by which I mean "match the original"). For backup savesets then BACKUP/ANALYZE is at least a starting point and the default is to write savesets with /CRC and to check the CRC on read. For DECW$BOOK stuff, I have no idea how you can be confident that it is 100% correct. Then again, it's just text you're going to read (line the [.LINE_DOCS] stuff) so I guess it's not hugely critical. Plus all the stuff I've recovered so far has at most 4096 missing bytes I think, which is 8 blocks at most. So the odds that you'd hit something bad are quite small. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 14 09:16:47 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 15:16:47 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210514125938.4C58E4E95B@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> <20210514125938.4C58E4E95B@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <2b9b778e-5820-4707-6a43-56053fb9dfb4@ntlworld.com> On 14/05/2021 13:45, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > In the USA, it is not uncommon that a public library would have > such a CD/DVD rescue machine, too. Ask a librarian. It's moot now (until I come across the next one, I guess). But given the cost and the fact that I have a 100% hit rate right now, I have to say IBM (It's Better Manually) :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 15 17:30:46 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 23:30:46 +0100 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00cc01d749d9$f387c090$da9741b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 03 May 2021 19:29 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt ; > cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Documentation for F11 Chipset? > > > > > On May 3, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any > kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having trouble > working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 TIME > OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It would help > to have a working machine to compare it to! > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > That sounds like it's trying to access the boot ROM and not getting an answer. I have been looking at this and I think you are right. But the reason is odd. It looks like the ROMs are never being selected by the ROM address decode. I can't find on the printset anything that says what the boot address would be, perhaps that is burned into the F11 chipset? However, from the Pro technical manual the ROM addresses are in the ranges 17730000-17767776, so I think the top 7 bits of the address should all be 1s. It looks like I never get anything other than 0s, when the address strobe (CT6 RCV AS H on the printset) is asserted. There is activity on the F11 chips, so I think they are working. Any ideas anyone? Thanks Rob > > paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 15 17:41:32 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 17:41:32 -0500 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <00cc01d749d9$f387c090$da9741b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> <00cc01d749d9$f387c090$da9741b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <60A04E1C.4020802@pico-systems.com> On 05/15/2021 05:30 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Paul Koning >> Sent: 03 May 2021 19:29 >> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt ; >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Documentation for F11 Chipset? >> >> >> >>> On May 3, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > >> wrote: >>> Sadly my machine is not at the point where I can attach a console of any >> kind. The CPU is being reset every 13us by a bus error. I am having > trouble >> working out why though. I have got as far as working out that is the CT2 > TIME >> OUT signal, but just why that is active isn't entirely clear to me. It > would help >> to have a working machine to compare it to! >>> Regards >>> >>> Rob >> That sounds like it's trying to access the boot ROM and not getting an > answer. > > > I have been looking at this and I think you are right. But the reason is > odd. It looks like the ROMs are never being selected by the ROM address > decode. I can't find on the printset anything that says what the boot > address would be, perhaps that is burned into the F11 chipset? However, from > the Pro technical manual the ROM addresses are in the ranges > 17730000-17767776, so I think the top 7 bits of the address should all be > 1s. It looks like I never get anything other than 0s, when the address > strobe (CT6 RCV AS H on the printset) is asserted. There is activity on the > F11 chips, so I think they are working. > Are there address line drivers between the F11 and the bus? Could either they not be getting an enable or just gone bad? Jon From mdehling at gmail.com Sun May 16 07:51:45 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 14:51:45 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> Message-ID: <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:47:09AM +0200, Malte Dehling wrote: > I plan on updating the description for the CONOLD CDs with a list of > the books included. That probably means writing a script to extract > that information from the DECW$BOOKSHELF files. I have now generated a contents listing for the CONOLD CDs: https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From bdweb at mindspring.com Sun May 16 08:56:44 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 09:56:44 -0400 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <00cc01d749d9$f387c090$da9741b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> <00cc01d749d9$f387c090$da9741b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <780b1973-0982-805c-12ee-7c0cdf874111@mindspring.com> > > I have been looking at this and I think you are right. But the reason is > odd. It looks like the ROMs are never being selected by the ROM address > decode. I can't find on the printset anything that says what the boot > address would be, perhaps that is burned into the F11 chipset? However, from > the Pro technical manual the ROM addresses are in the ranges > 17730000-17767776, so I think the top 7 bits of the address should all be > 1s. It looks like I never get anything other than 0s, when the address > strobe (CT6 RCV AS H on the printset) is asserted. There is activity on the > F11 chips, so I think they are working. > > Any ideas anyone? > > Rob, The start address on the DEC Pro is physical address 017760000. As a virtual addresses this is at the beginning of the I/O page (0160000). This mapping extends up 4 KiB (to physical 017767777 or virtual 0167777). But, of course, the ROM is actually 16 KiB long.? So where are the other 12 KiB? They're at physical addresses 017730000..017757777.? These physical addresses are not mapped into virtual address space at reset, but the boot ROM does map them during its execution to exactly where you'd expect: 0130000..0157777. Now, just to top off this confusion, the mapping of CPU-perspective physical addresses to ROM address lines is a little odd. It's really best described a table, which I hope doesn't get mangled by email formatting (all values in octal): Virtual???? Physical????? ROM offset 0130000*??? 017730000???? 030000 0137777*??? 017737777???? 037777 0140000*??? 017740000???? 000000 0147777*??? 017747777???? 007777 0150000*??? 017750000???? 010000 0157777*??? 017757777???? 017777 0160000+??? 017760000???? 020000 0167777+??? 017767777???? 027777 * = mapped later by boot ROM into virtual address space + = low half of I/O page -- mapped at CPU reset time So you can see the low 14 bits of physical address are fed directly to the ROM.? It makes for a slightly lumpy looking layout. The decode for this is on page CT10 of the schematic.? You can see the "ROM ADDRESS DECODER" section which has a NAND of address lines 21..15 being used as an enable on a 3-to-8 negative-output decoder and a 3-input negative-input OR on outputs 3,4,5.? This selects physical addresses 0177[3,4,5]XXXX.? Then E114 decodes the I/O page locations when A12 is low (017760000..017767777). This is the crucial reset-time ROM selection decoder. As to why the CPU starts at 0160000...I swear I saw that once in the documentation somewhere but I can't immediately find it again.? I believed that the CPU is presented with some kind of word at reset time that tells it where to start executing.? I believe that you can see this word constructed by E3 and half of E17 on page CT2 of the schematic, but I can't find the documentation that describes the layout of the word.? You can see the word would be 0b11100000LXXXX010 where L is ~(CT2 LPOK 1 L) and X is undefined.? Notice that the high bits decode to 0160000, and I think that's where the start address comes from. I hope that answers your question. --Bjoren From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 13:46:36 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 19:46:36 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> Message-ID: <6843caa2-3748-d927-35c1-fa995904fe58@ntlworld.com> On 16/05/2021 13:51, Malte Dehling wrote: > I have now generated a contents listing for the CONOLD CDs: > > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 > That looks interesting: the fundamental VMS documentation is there, but very little of the layered product info is present. The MAR-1989 CONOLD has FORTRAN and DBMS and the JUL-1989 CONOLD has C, FORTRAN, PASCAL, GKS, DBMS, VDE and DECforms. So I would speculate that these would be amongst the earliest CONOLD distributions. I read elsewhere (comp.os.vms) that the first CONDIST went out in the VMS V5.0 timeframe and the 1989-05 CONDIST contains both VMS V5.0 and V5.1. VMS V5.0 was announced in APR-1998 (https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/note?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=64.0), so it is possible that some earlier CONDIST may yet appear. I've put the CD_CONTENTS.DAT that I have up on github: https://github.com/AntonioCarlini/dec-cdrom-distros. (I just realised that I've mis-named the 1989-05 release as 1989-03 ... I'll fix that rsn). I guess that I should do something similar for the CONOLD CDROMs. Did you find DECW$SHELF to be enough to build up an accurate list of contents? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun May 16 15:00:04 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 13:00:04 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <6843caa2-3748-d927-35c1-fa995904fe58@ntlworld.com> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <6843caa2-3748-d927-35c1-fa995904fe58@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2044FA67-DACB-4CB8-895B-E72E2AF3A4BA@avanthar.com> Does anyone know if a 5.5-2 era CONOLD is available? These that have just been made available are beyond awesome, as I gave my paper set of 5.x doc?s to Paul Allen?s computer museum, only keeping the basic 6 paperbacks, since I have a complete 6.x set, and the base 7.2 set I?m going to see about putting them on PDXVAX (which is on HECnet), and making them available for viewing with VTBOOK. I need to hunt up copies of that and a couple other things. I should have them in my archives. I want to say that there is a WASD package that will handle bookreader format doc?s. Zane > On May 16, 2021, at 11:46 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 16/05/2021 13:51, Malte Dehling wrote: >> I have now generated a contents listing for the CONOLD CDs: >> >> https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 >> https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 >> > That looks interesting: the fundamental VMS documentation is there, but very little of the layered product info is present. > > The MAR-1989 CONOLD has FORTRAN and DBMS and the JUL-1989 CONOLD has C, FORTRAN, PASCAL, GKS, DBMS, VDE and DECforms. > > So I would speculate that these would be amongst the earliest CONOLD distributions. I read elsewhere (comp.os.vms) that the first CONDIST > > went out in the VMS V5.0 timeframe and the 1989-05 CONDIST contains both VMS V5.0 and V5.1. VMS V5.0 was announced > > in APR-1998 (https://eisner.decus.org/anon/htnotes/note?f1=INDUSTRY_NEWS&f2=64.0), so it is possible that some earlier CONDIST > > may yet appear. > > > I've put the CD_CONTENTS.DAT that I have up on github: https://github.com/AntonioCarlini/dec-cdrom-distros. (I just realised that I've mis-named the 1989-05 release as 1989-03 ... I'll fix that rsn). > > I guess that I should do something similar for the CONOLD CDROMs. Did you find DECW$SHELF to be enough to build up an accurate list of contents? > > > Antonio > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 15:42:46 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 21:42:46 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <2044FA67-DACB-4CB8-895B-E72E2AF3A4BA@avanthar.com> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <6843caa2-3748-d927-35c1-fa995904fe58@ntlworld.com> <2044FA67-DACB-4CB8-895B-E72E2AF3A4BA@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <45cf0b11-d671-80fe-c156-cba184933a35@ntlworld.com> On 16/05/2021 21:00, Zane Healy wrote: > Does anyone know if a 5.5-2 era CONOLD is available? These that have just been made available are beyond awesome, as I gave my paper set of 5.x doc?s to Paul Allen?s computer museum, only keeping the basic 6 paperbacks, since I have a complete 6.x set, and the base 7.2 set > > I?m going to see about putting them on PDXVAX (which is on HECnet), and making them available for viewing with VTBOOK. I need to hunt up copies of that and a couple other things. I should have them in my archives. > > I want to say that there is a WASD package that will handle bookreader format doc?s. V5.5-2 would be 1991-NOV or so. There's a CONDIST 1991-MAY on https://vaxstuff.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/.? and I have a CONDIST 1991-NOV. The next CONOLD I have is 1992-JUL (3 discs) (I can image that one next if it will help). There's a V5.5-2H4 OS CD on VaxHaven at http://vaxhaven.com/cd-image/AG-PXL1A-RE.iso.zip. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun May 16 15:53:02 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 13:53:02 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <45cf0b11-d671-80fe-c156-cba184933a35@ntlworld.com> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <6843caa2-3748-d927-35c1-fa995904fe58@ntlworld.com> <2044FA67-DACB-4CB8-895B-E72E2AF3A4BA@avanthar.com> <45cf0b11-d671-80fe-c156-cba184933a35@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6BC1CF73-09D4-4EF4-907F-11EEC59F9CA0@avanthar.com> On May 16, 2021, at 1:42 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > On 16/05/2021 21:00, Zane Healy wrote: >> Does anyone know if a 5.5-2 era CONOLD is available? These that have just been made available are beyond awesome, as I gave my paper set of 5.x doc?s to Paul Allen?s computer museum, only keeping the basic 6 paperbacks, since I have a complete 6.x set, and the base 7.2 set >> >> I?m going to see about putting them on PDXVAX (which is on HECnet), and making them available for viewing with VTBOOK. I need to hunt up copies of that and a couple other things. I should have them in my archives. >> >> I want to say that there is a WASD package that will handle bookreader format doc?s. > > V5.5-2 would be 1991-NOV or so. There's a CONDIST 1991-MAY on https://vaxstuff.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/. and I have a CONDIST 1991-NOV. > > The next CONOLD I have is 1992-JUL (3 discs) (I can image that one next if it will help). PDXVAX runs 5.5-2, so I was hoping to get doc?s specific to that release, though realistically even the 5.1 doc?s you just uploaded will be great, and I?m rather curious to get them accessible anyway. > There's a V5.5-2H4 OS CD on VaxHaven at http://vaxhaven.com/cd-image/AG-PXL1A-RE.iso.zip. What exactly is VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4? I?ve never been too clear on that. It?s just V5.5-2 with added hardware support, isn?t it? Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun May 16 16:19:38 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 14:19:38 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <6BC1CF73-09D4-4EF4-907F-11EEC59F9CA0@avanthar.com> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <6843caa2-3748-d927-35c1-fa995904fe58@ntlworld.com> <2044FA67-DACB-4CB8-895B-E72E2AF3A4BA@avanthar.com> <45cf0b11-d671-80fe-c156-cba184933a35@ntlworld.com> <6BC1CF73-09D4-4EF4-907F-11EEC59F9CA0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 2:03 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > What exactly is VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4? I?ve never been too clear on that. It?s just V5.5-2 with added hardware support, isn?t it? https://wiki.vmssoftware.com/OpenVMS VIKING V5.5-2H4 July 26,1993 Limited Hardware Release based on V5.5-2. Includes support for VAX 4000 models: 100A, 500A, 600A, 700A. Also supports 2nd SCSI adapter, KZDDA, on MicroVAX 3100 Model 90. Also includes support for DEFTA (FDDI to TURBOchannel adapter) and DEFQA (FDDI to Q-bus adapter) and Tagged Command Queuing (TCQ) for StorageWorks RAID Array 110 Subsystem. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 16:29:51 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 22:29:51 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <6BC1CF73-09D4-4EF4-907F-11EEC59F9CA0@avanthar.com> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <6843caa2-3748-d927-35c1-fa995904fe58@ntlworld.com> <2044FA67-DACB-4CB8-895B-E72E2AF3A4BA@avanthar.com> <45cf0b11-d671-80fe-c156-cba184933a35@ntlworld.com> <6BC1CF73-09D4-4EF4-907F-11EEC59F9CA0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 16/05/2021 21:53, Zane Healy wrote: > > What exactly is VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4? I?ve never been too clear on that. It?s just V5.5-2 with added hardware support, isn?t it? > Yes, that would seem to be the case: |-----------|---------|----------------------|----------------|9| |---------------------------------------------------------------| | |V5.5-2HW |Limited HW Release | |3|2| OpenVMS VAX V5.5-2HW was a special hardware release that | | | | | FRS=9/4/92 | | | supported the following new VAX systems and peripherals: | | | | | | | | VAX 7000 Model 600 & VAX 10000 Model 600 (Neon) | | | | | | | | VAX 4000 Model 400 (Omega-slow)/ VAX 4000 Model 100 | | | | | | | | (Cheetah-Q) MicroVAX 3100 Model 90 (Cheetah-W) / VAXstation | | | | | | | | 4000 Model 90 (Cougar) / RZ26 / TZ86 / ESE50 | |-----------|---------|----------------------|----------------| | |---------------------------------------------------------------| https://web.archive.org/web/20170824234825/http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt (and also http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vms/openvms-release-history.txt). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From chd at chdickman.com Sun May 16 20:27:36 2021 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 21:27:36 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication In-Reply-To: <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> References: <90be5bfc70ad469aba785f216730271a@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <9294603e-9fbd-e74f-d84d-af33342c101c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:12 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > I would suggest Caig > > I would suggest researching and understanding what their snake oil does > before > using any Caig product. > > Do not underestimate the lure of a good snake oil. I long for the smell of my ASR33. That KS7470 oil was magic. I stored it in the attic and would visit from time to time. But now the smell is gone. Evaporated. Like the perfume of a lost love it is no longer there. -chuck From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Mon May 17 13:43:14 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 14:43:14 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes Message-ID: My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was for an end node and not a routing or other capability for the 380/350/325 boxes. While that memory might be incorrect, are there any DecNet packages for the Pro family available anywhere? a few hours of searching did not turn up any thing but PDFs about the software. thanks in advance for any replies. bob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 17 14:24:02 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 20:24:02 +0100 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017a01d74b52$31f525b0$95df7110$@ntlworld.com> Not aware of any, however if there is a C compiler for the Pro 300 series then you could potentially adapt my user mode router to the Pro 300. In fact, it might be a fun project. However, it isn't the full DECnet stack, just the router and a little bit of the Network Management layer. I am trying to repair my real Pro 350, although I am not having much luck so far. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bob Smith via > cctalk > Sent: 17 May 2021 19:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes > > My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was for an > end node and not a routing or other capability for the > 380/350/325 boxes. > While that memory might be incorrect, are there any DecNet packages for > the Pro family available anywhere? > a few hours of searching did not turn up any thing but PDFs about the > software. > thanks in advance for any replies. > bob From 4eric.evans at gmail.com Mon May 17 14:40:06 2021 From: 4eric.evans at gmail.com (Eric Evans) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 14:40:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: DDS Intertec SuperBrain attic find w/ OS and dust cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Classic Computer Collectors, My name is Eric and I live in Baton Rouge, LA. A customer of mine recently asked me to find a good home for his early 1980's Intertec Superbrain. He told me that it worked the last time he used it in 198? after which time it sat in his attic with the dust cover on it. He provided me with a number of 5.25" floppy disks, which he said contained the complete operating system. The chassis appears to be 100% intact, and includes the dust cover. I can provide a few photos if you'd like. I have not yet been able to make contact with any other classic PC collectors, or museums that have expressed interest. Before I send it out to my local recycler, I thought I'd reach out and see if anyone might be interested. Thank you for your time & God bless, Eric Evans 225homebuyers.com 225.242.9858 gVoice 316.461.8587 cell ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Dave Dunfield Date: Tue, May 11, 2021 at 11:09 PM Subject: Re: DDS Intertec SuperBrain attic find w/ OS and dust cover To: Eric Evans <4eric.evans at gmail.com> Hi Eric, Sorry but no - I'm moving to smaller digs and have had to let much of my collection go and simply can't take on more right now. You might try the Classic computer collectors mailing list: http://www.classiccmp.org Dave Btw: In asking stuff like this it might be a good idea to state your (or friends) location. On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 5:22 PM Eric Evans <4eric.evans at gmail.com> wrote: > Dave, > > A customer of mine recently asked me to find a good home for his early > 1980's Intertec Superbrain. He told me that it worked the last time he used > it in 198? after which time it sat in his attic with the dust cover on it. > He provided me with a number of 5.25" floppy disks, which he said contained > the complete operating system. > > The chassis appears to be 100% intact, and includes the dust cover. I can > provide a few photos if you'd like. > > I have not yet been able to make contact with any other classic PC > collectors, or museums that have expressed interest. Before I send it out > to my local recycler, I thought I'd reach out and see if you had any > interest, or knew of anyone who might. > > Thank you for your time & God bless, > > Eric Evans > 225homebuyers.com > 225.242.9858 gVoice > 316.461.8587 cell > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Search "Dave's Old Computers" see "my personal" at bottom! From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 17 14:46:31 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 12:46:31 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> References: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <40403683-fce0-c27d-3dbd-f3332f6c8990@ntlworld.com> <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> Message-ID: > On May 16, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:47:09AM +0200, Malte Dehling wrote: >> I plan on updating the description for the CONOLD CDs with a list of >> the books included. That probably means writing a script to extract >> that information from the DECW$BOOKSHELF files. > > I have now generated a contents listing for the CONOLD CDs: > > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 > > Cheers, > Malte > > -- > Malte Dehling > Did you read these on a VAX? I?m trying to use MGBOOK (based on VTBOOK), to read the files from CDROM-AG-NC67C-RE-1989-07-VMS-CONOLD.iso. I?m on a system running VAX/VMS 5.5-2, and I am able to read the DECW$BOOKSHELF files, but not the DECW$BOOK files. I?m able to read the Bookreader documentation installed with VAX/VMS 5.5-2 just fine using MGBOOK. Error from in MGBOOK when trying to read a DECW$BOOK after reading a DECW$BOOKSHELF file. %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual address=00000011, PC=00003B2F, PSL=03C00000 Error from MGBOOK when trying to read a DECW$BOOK directly. %MGBOOK-E-READERR, Error reading bookshelf entry information -RMS-W-RTB, 1022 byte record too large for user's buffer Zane From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon May 17 14:51:25 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 20:51:25 +0100 Subject: DDS Intertec SuperBrain attic find w/ OS and dust cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Eric, I'm in the UK so can't be much help for rehoming, but please don't send this to the recyclers. I'm sure there'll be someone on this list who will take it. One thing we're really short of in the Superbrain world is disk images of the OS and applications etc so if there's a box of floppies too then that's even more useful. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 20:42, Eric Evans via cctalk wrote: > Classic Computer Collectors, > > My name is Eric and I live in Baton Rouge, LA. A customer of mine recently > asked me to find a good home for his early 1980's Intertec Superbrain. He > told me that it worked the last time he used it in 198? after which time it > sat in his attic with the dust cover on it. He provided me with a number of > 5.25" floppy disks, which he said contained the complete operating system. > > The chassis appears to be 100% intact, and includes the dust cover. I can > provide a few photos if you'd like. > > I have not yet been able to make contact with any other classic PC > collectors, or museums that have expressed interest. Before I send it out > to my local recycler, I thought I'd reach out and see if anyone might be > interested. > > Thank you for your time & God bless, > > Eric Evans > 225homebuyers.com > 225.242.9858 gVoice > 316.461.8587 cell > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Tue, May 11, 2021 at 11:09 PM > Subject: Re: DDS Intertec SuperBrain attic find w/ OS and dust cover > To: Eric Evans <4eric.evans at gmail.com> > > > Hi Eric, > > Sorry but no - I'm moving to smaller digs and have had to let much of my > collection go and simply can't take on more right now. You might try the > Classic computer collectors mailing list: > > http://www.classiccmp.org > > Dave > > Btw: In asking stuff like this it might be a good idea to state your (or > friends) location. > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 5:22 PM Eric Evans <4eric.evans at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dave, > > > > A customer of mine recently asked me to find a good home for his early > > 1980's Intertec Superbrain. He told me that it worked the last time he > used > > it in 198? after which time it sat in his attic with the dust cover on > it. > > He provided me with a number of 5.25" floppy disks, which he said > contained > > the complete operating system. > > > > The chassis appears to be 100% intact, and includes the dust cover. I can > > provide a few photos if you'd like. > > > > I have not yet been able to make contact with any other classic PC > > collectors, or museums that have expressed interest. Before I send it out > > to my local recycler, I thought I'd reach out and see if you had any > > interest, or knew of anyone who might. > > > > Thank you for your time & God bless, > > > > Eric Evans > > 225homebuyers.com > > 225.242.9858 gVoice > > 316.461.8587 cell > > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Search "Dave's Old Computers" see "my personal" at bottom! > From john at forecast.name Mon May 17 15:02:12 2021 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 16:02:12 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <897B8AB5-5F11-4267-99ED-697A01D20A4E@forecast.name> > On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was > for an end node and not a routing or other capability for the > 380/350/325 boxes. > While that memory might be incorrect, are there any DecNet packages > for the Pro family available anywhere? > a few hours of searching did not turn up any thing but PDFs about the software. > thanks in advance for any replies. > bob I?m almost certain that it was an end-node only implementation. Eventually it was released through Decus as PRO175. There appears to be disk copies available at: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/pro/pro175/index.html You?ll need to be running P/OS V3.2 so you might want to grab a copy of PRO177 at the same time. John. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 17 15:13:57 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 16:13:57 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was > for an end node and not a routing or other capability for the > 380/350/325 boxes. That's how I remember it as well. I think the DEC notion was that a Pro wasn't powerful enough to do routing, and on top of that it's hard to configure it with enough ports to make it interesting. In theory it could do Ethernet to 9600 baud sync DDCMP, and if you really want to stress the poor little CPU you could try to add a few async DDCMP lines (on the quad UART card). I don't know if DECnet/Pro supports anything other than Ethernet, though. I have my Pro/RSTS system running as a router, on two serial ports, though only one is active right now. The main reason I set it up that way is so it would allow me to turn on the second line, for use as a test data source. paul From bdweb at mindspring.com Mon May 17 15:17:18 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 16:17:18 -0400 Subject: Documentation for F11 Chipset? In-Reply-To: <780b1973-0982-805c-12ee-7c0cdf874111@mindspring.com> References: <017501d74005$ce1d4d80$6a57e880$@ntlworld.com> <1299C332-E335-45F6-B739-B34E6A7E85E5@avanthar.com> <01a301d74049$73cb90f0$5b62b2d0$@ntlworld.com> <92FE37B7-BCAB-41EF-B474-C8C6228583DF@comcast.net> <00cc01d749d9$f387c090$da9741b0$@ntlworld.com> <780b1973-0982-805c-12ee-7c0cdf874111@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <04321695-c02b-e4b8-8728-a7b27bec43f6@mindspring.com> [ off list ] Rob, Did you get my response to your question?? Was it helpful? Do you have more questions? BTW I'm back at my home so I can instrument my machine again. --Bjoren On 5/16/2021 9:56 AM, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > >> >> I have been looking at this and I think you are right. But the reason is >> odd. It looks like the ROMs are never being selected by the ROM address >> decode. I can't find on the printset anything that says what the boot >> address would be, perhaps that is burned into the F11 chipset? >> However, from >> the Pro technical manual the ROM addresses are in the ranges >> 17730000-17767776, so I think the top 7 bits of the address should >> all be >> 1s. It looks like I never get anything other than 0s, when the address >> strobe (CT6 RCV AS H on the printset) is asserted. There is activity >> on the >> F11 chips, so I think they are working. >> >> Any ideas anyone? >> >> > Rob, > > The start address on the DEC Pro is physical address 017760000. As a > virtual addresses this is at the beginning of the I/O page (0160000). > This mapping extends up 4 KiB (to physical 017767777 or virtual 0167777). > > But, of course, the ROM is actually 16 KiB long.? So where are the > other 12 KiB? > > They're at physical addresses 017730000..017757777.? These physical > addresses are not mapped into virtual address space at reset, but the > boot ROM does map them during its execution to exactly where you'd > expect: 0130000..0157777. > > Now, just to top off this confusion, the mapping of CPU-perspective > physical addresses to ROM address lines is a little odd. > > It's really best described a table, which I hope doesn't get mangled > by email formatting (all values in octal): > > Virtual???? Physical????? ROM offset > 0130000*??? 017730000???? 030000 > 0137777*??? 017737777???? 037777 > 0140000*??? 017740000???? 000000 > 0147777*??? 017747777???? 007777 > 0150000*??? 017750000???? 010000 > 0157777*??? 017757777???? 017777 > 0160000+??? 017760000???? 020000 > 0167777+??? 017767777???? 027777 > > * = mapped later by boot ROM into virtual address space > + = low half of I/O page -- mapped at CPU reset time > > So you can see the low 14 bits of physical address are fed directly to > the ROM.? It makes for a slightly lumpy looking layout. > > The decode for this is on page CT10 of the schematic.? You can see the > "ROM ADDRESS DECODER" section which has a NAND of address lines 21..15 > being used as an enable on a 3-to-8 negative-output decoder and a > 3-input negative-input OR on outputs 3,4,5.? This selects physical > addresses 0177[3,4,5]XXXX.? Then E114 decodes the I/O page locations > when A12 is low (017760000..017767777). This is the crucial reset-time > ROM selection decoder. > > As to why the CPU starts at 0160000...I swear I saw that once in the > documentation somewhere but I can't immediately find it again.? I > believed that the CPU is presented with some kind of word at reset > time that tells it where to start executing.? I believe that you can > see this word constructed by E3 and half of E17 on page CT2 of the > schematic, but I can't find the documentation that describes the > layout of the word.? You can see the word would be 0b11100000LXXXX010 > where L is ~(CT2 LPOK 1 L) and X is undefined.? Notice that the high > bits decode to 0160000, and I think that's where the start address > comes from. > > I hope that answers your question. > > --Bjoren > > > From dittman at dittman.net Mon May 17 15:42:03 2021 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 15:42:03 -0500 Subject: Fwd: DDS Intertec SuperBrain attic find w/ OS and dust cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <741db913-9ca3-c388-e1d0-472ccc6c9d32@dittman.net> I'd be interested if shipping was a possibility. On 5/17/21 2:40 PM, Eric Evans via cctalk wrote: > Classic Computer Collectors, > > My name is Eric and I live in Baton Rouge, LA. A customer of mine recently > asked me to find a good home for his early 1980's Intertec Superbrain. He > told me that it worked the last time he used it in 198? after which time it > sat in his attic with the dust cover on it. He provided me with a number of > 5.25" floppy disks, which he said contained the complete operating system. > > The chassis appears to be 100% intact, and includes the dust cover. I can > provide a few photos if you'd like. > > I have not yet been able to make contact with any other classic PC > collectors, or museums that have expressed interest. Before I send it out > to my local recycler, I thought I'd reach out and see if anyone might be > interested. > > Thank you for your time & God bless, > > Eric Evans > 225homebuyers.com > 225.242.9858 gVoice > 316.461.8587 cell > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Tue, May 11, 2021 at 11:09 PM > Subject: Re: DDS Intertec SuperBrain attic find w/ OS and dust cover > To: Eric Evans <4eric.evans at gmail.com> > > > Hi Eric, > > Sorry but no - I'm moving to smaller digs and have had to let much of my > collection go and simply can't take on more right now. You might try the > Classic computer collectors mailing list: > > http://www.classiccmp.org > > Dave > > Btw: In asking stuff like this it might be a good idea to state your (or > friends) location. > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 5:22 PM Eric Evans <4eric.evans at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> A customer of mine recently asked me to find a good home for his early >> 1980's Intertec Superbrain. He told me that it worked the last time he used >> it in 198? after which time it sat in his attic with the dust cover on it. >> He provided me with a number of 5.25" floppy disks, which he said contained >> the complete operating system. >> >> The chassis appears to be 100% intact, and includes the dust cover. I can >> provide a few photos if you'd like. >> >> I have not yet been able to make contact with any other classic PC >> collectors, or museums that have expressed interest. Before I send it out >> to my local recycler, I thought I'd reach out and see if you had any >> interest, or knew of anyone who might. >> >> Thank you for your time & God bless, >> >> Eric Evans >> 225homebuyers.com >> 225.242.9858 gVoice >> 316.461.8587 cell >> > > -- Eric Dittman From mdehling at gmail.com Mon May 17 15:54:39 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 22:54:39 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> Message-ID: <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:46:31PM -0700, Zane Healy wrote: > > On May 16, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: > > I have now generated a contents listing for the CONOLD CDs: > > > > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 > > https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 > > Did you read these on a VAX? I?m trying to use MGBOOK (based on > VTBOOK), to read the files from > CDROM-AG-NC67C-RE-1989-07-VMS-CONOLD.iso. I?m on a system running > VAX/VMS 5.5-2, and I am able to read the DECW$BOOKSHELF files, but not > the DECW$BOOK files. > > I?m able to read the Bookreader documentation installed with VAX/VMS > 5.5-2 just fine using MGBOOK. I just did a TYPE *.DECW$BOOKSHELF in a simulated vax and wrote a little python script to generate the contents listing. I don't know MGBOOK, so I can't help you there. On my VAXstation 3100 running VMS 5.5-2, I can read the documentation using the standard DECW$BOOKREADER application after doing: DEFINE/SYSTEM DECW$BOOK DKA400:[DECW$BOOK] Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 17 16:04:01 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 14:04:01 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> Message-ID: On May 17, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Malte Dehling wrote: > > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:46:31PM -0700, Zane Healy wrote: >>> On May 16, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: >>> I have now generated a contents listing for the CONOLD CDs: >>> >>> https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 >>> https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 >> >> Did you read these on a VAX? I?m trying to use MGBOOK (based on >> VTBOOK), to read the files from >> CDROM-AG-NC67C-RE-1989-07-VMS-CONOLD.iso. I?m on a system running >> VAX/VMS 5.5-2, and I am able to read the DECW$BOOKSHELF files, but not >> the DECW$BOOK files. >> >> I?m able to read the Bookreader documentation installed with VAX/VMS >> 5.5-2 just fine using MGBOOK. > > I just did a TYPE *.DECW$BOOKSHELF in a simulated vax and wrote a little > python script to generate the contents listing. > > I don't know MGBOOK, so I can't help you there. On my VAXstation 3100 > running VMS 5.5-2, I can read the documentation using the standard > DECW$BOOKREADER application after doing: > > DEFINE/SYSTEM DECW$BOOK DKA400:[DECW$BOOK] Thanks! Knowing that helps. I don?t have a monitor on any of my VAXstations, so couldn?t try that. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 17 16:21:07 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DDS Intertec SuperBrain attic find w/ OS and dust cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most who are familiar with Intertec SuperBrain will already know, but for those who are unfamiliar: They had three disk formats: All of which can be done by reformatting IBM "360K" diskettes" Single sided "Double Density" (MFM) 200K 48TPI 40 track. ISTR 10 512 byte sectors per track, the data may have been inverted within the sectors. Double sided "Double Density" (MFM) 400K 48TPI 40 trackper side. They called the DSDD, "QUAD DENSITY". Everybody else in the world used "QUAD DENSITY" to refer to DSDD 80 track per side. The head number field on the second side had an incorrect value in it. That poses some minor hassle with using INT13h to read them. Double sided "Double Density" (MFM) 800K 96TPI 80 trackper side. Because they had alread used up the name "QUAD DENSITY" to refer to DSDD 40 trak per side, they called the "800K" format "SUPER DENSITY", which they abbreviated "SD", which confuses the rest of the world that uses "SD" to refer to "SINGLE DENSITY". In addition, the index "flash blindness" of the NEC chip sometimes poses minor difficulties, with the short post index gap. On Mon, 17 May 2021, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi Eric, > > I'm in the UK so can't be much help for rehoming, but please don't send > this to the recyclers. I'm sure there'll be someone on this list who will > take it. One thing we're really short of in the Superbrain world is disk > images of the OS and applications etc so if there's a box of floppies too > then that's even more useful. > > Cheers, > > -- > Adrian Graham > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 20:42, Eric Evans via cctalk > wrote: > >> Classic Computer Collectors, >> >> My name is Eric and I live in Baton Rouge, LA. A customer of mine recently >> asked me to find a good home for his early 1980's Intertec Superbrain. He >> told me that it worked the last time he used it in 198? after which time it >> sat in his attic with the dust cover on it. He provided me with a number of >> 5.25" floppy disks, which he said contained the complete operating system. >> >> The chassis appears to be 100% intact, and includes the dust cover. I can >> provide a few photos if you'd like. >> >> I have not yet been able to make contact with any other classic PC >> collectors, or museums that have expressed interest. Before I send it out >> to my local recycler, I thought I'd reach out and see if anyone might be >> interested. >> >> Thank you for your time & God bless, >> >> Eric Evans >> 225homebuyers.com >> 225.242.9858 gVoice >> 316.461.8587 cell From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 17 16:43:22 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 22:43:22 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> Message-ID: <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> Zane Healy wrote: > On May 17, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Malte Dehling wrote: >> >> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:46:31PM -0700, Zane Healy wrote: >>>> On May 16, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have now generated a contents listing for the CONOLD CDs: >>>> >>>> https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-03 >>>> https://archive.org/details/vms-conold-1989-07 >>> >>> Did you read these on a VAX? I?m trying to use MGBOOK (based on >>> VTBOOK), to read the files from >>> CDROM-AG-NC67C-RE-1989-07-VMS-CONOLD.iso. I?m on a system running >>> VAX/VMS 5.5-2, and I am able to read the DECW$BOOKSHELF files, but not >>> the DECW$BOOK files. >>> >>> I?m able to read the Bookreader documentation installed with VAX/VMS >>> 5.5-2 just fine using MGBOOK. >> >> I just did a TYPE *.DECW$BOOKSHELF in a simulated vax and wrote a little >> python script to generate the contents listing. >> >> I don't know MGBOOK, so I can't help you there. On my VAXstation 3100 >> running VMS 5.5-2, I can read the documentation using the standard >> DECW$BOOKREADER application after doing: >> >> DEFINE/SYSTEM DECW$BOOK DKA400:[DECW$BOOK] > > Thanks! Knowing that helps. I don?t have a monitor on any of my > VAXstations, so couldn?t try that. > Zane, How about redirecting DECW$BOOKREADER to display on an X server elsewhere? $ SET DISPLAY /NODE=domain.name /TRANSPORT=TCPIP /CREATE $ MCR DECW$BOOKREADER Regards, Peter Coghlan > > Zane > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 17 19:14:37 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 20:14:37 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: <897B8AB5-5F11-4267-99ED-697A01D20A4E@forecast.name> References: <897B8AB5-5F11-4267-99ED-697A01D20A4E@forecast.name> Message-ID: On Mon, May 17, 2021, 4:58 PM John Forecast via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk > wrote: > > > > My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was > > for an end node and not a routing or other capability for the > > 380/350/325 boxes. > > While that memory might be incorrect, are there any DecNet packages > > for the Pro family available anywhere? > > a few hours of searching did not turn up any thing but PDFs about the > software. > > thanks in advance for any replies. > > bob > > I?m almost certain that it was an end-node only implementation. Eventually > it was released through Decus as PRO175. There appears to be disk copies > available at: > > > http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/pro/pro175/index.html > < > http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/pro/pro175/index.html > > > > You?ll need to be running P/OS V3.2 so you might want to grab a copy of > PRO177 at the same time. > > Maybe I am misunderstanding, but why would the pro be anything but more > decnet-able? Bill > From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 17 19:36:55 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 17:36:55 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Zane, > > How about redirecting DECW$BOOKREADER to display on an X server elsewhere? > > $ SET DISPLAY /NODE=domain.name /TRANSPORT=TCPIP /CREATE > $ MCR DECW$BOOKREADER > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan I?m trying to make the files readable via HECnet, so I need VTBOOK, MGBOOK, or similar. I see that at least an early Freeware CD had VTB, but the copy I downloaded appears to be corrupt. Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 17 19:43:32 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 20:43:32 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: References: <897B8AB5-5F11-4267-99ED-697A01D20A4E@forecast.name> Message-ID: > On May 17, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Maybe I am misunderstanding, but why would the pro be anything but more decnet-able? > > Bill I'm not sure what you mean. A Pro is a PDP-11 so it could do many DECnet things, especially the Pro 380 since it has more memory and a faster processor. But it has two limitations compared to most other PDP-11s. One is the I/O. It comes stock with a single USART (the comm port) that, with effort, can be made to work reasonably well at 9600 baud. At 19,200 it can't keep up, at least not with the RSTS terminal driver. Perhaps that could be optimized. There are two comms option cards: the DECNA Ethernet, and the 3CA quad UART (a very obscure device). The quad UART has a better FIFO than the USART so it's happy at 9600. Just like the comm port, you're looking at DDCMP in software with those. The CNA is a 10 Mb/s Ethernet (half duplex) device, using the worst Ethernet NIC chip in the history of mankind. But it supposedly does work (I haven't done so yet). So while you could build a router, it wouldn't have much of a suite of comm links. The other limitation is the software. DEC only supplied P/OS, RT-11, and Ultrix (or was that some other Unix? I forgot, they changed plans in the middle of field test of one of them). Of those, P/OS comes with DECnet, which is the one John Forecast was talking about. Given that the version that was shipped is (apparently) end node only, that's what you're stuck with. RT-11 for Pro does not as far as I know, and in any case RT-11 only ever did endnodes. I have no idea about the Unix. Then there is RSTS, which can do all this (except, not yet, the DECNA), but I only ever released the more limited 9.6 version internally and still haven't managed to figure out a sane way to make the current (10.1 based) one available to the community. paul From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Mon May 17 20:55:51 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 21:55:51 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the info. and John!! bb On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 4:13 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > > My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was > > for an end node and not a routing or other capability for the > > 380/350/325 boxes. > > That's how I remember it as well. I think the DEC notion was that a Pro wasn't powerful enough to do routing, and on top of that it's hard to configure it with enough ports to make it interesting. In theory it could do Ethernet to 9600 baud sync DDCMP, and if you really want to stress the poor little CPU you could try to add a few async DDCMP lines (on the quad UART card). I don't know if DECnet/Pro supports anything other than Ethernet, though. > > I have my Pro/RSTS system running as a router, on two serial ports, though only one is active right now. The main reason I set it up that way is so it would allow me to turn on the second line, for use as a test data source. > > paul > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 17 21:08:10 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 22:08:10 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a DECNet for Rainbow MS DOS software. On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 9:56 PM Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks for the info. and John!! > bb > > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 4:13 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > > > > > On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was > > > for an end node and not a routing or other capability for the > > > 380/350/325 boxes. > > > > That's how I remember it as well. I think the DEC notion was that a Pro wasn't powerful enough to do routing, and on top of that it's hard to configure it with enough ports to make it interesting. In theory it could do Ethernet to 9600 baud sync DDCMP, and if you really want to stress the poor little CPU you could try to add a few async DDCMP lines (on the quad UART card). I don't know if DECnet/Pro supports anything other than Ethernet, though. > > > > I have my Pro/RSTS system running as a router, on two serial ports, though only one is active right now. The main reason I set it up that way is so it would allow me to turn on the second line, for use as a test data source. > > > > paul > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 18 00:51:47 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 01:51:47 -0400 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes In-Reply-To: References: <897B8AB5-5F11-4267-99ED-697A01D20A4E@forecast.name> Message-ID: On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 8:53 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > There are two comms option cards: the DECNA Ethernet, and the 3CA quad UART (a very obscure device). Yeah... I have neither of those, but at least I've seen a picture of a DECNA. > The other limitation is the software. DEC only supplied P/OS, RT-11, and Ultrix (or was that some other Unix? Not DEC, but there was VENIX from VenturCom. I have VENIX 1.0 on a Pro350, and there was VENIX 2.0 for the Pro380. No idea about DECNA support in 2.0, but I have the (paper) manuals for 1.0 and there's no mention of it. I think a TCP stack might crush an F-11. You could run TCP/IP on a 2.11BSD system, but that required a Split I&D processor and that means a J-11 (or a larger Unibus box, in practice). -ethan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue May 18 04:17:42 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 10:17:42 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> Zane Healy wrote: > On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> Zane, >> >> How about redirecting DECW$BOOKREADER to display on an X server elsewhere? >> >> $ SET DISPLAY /NODE=domain.name /TRANSPORT=TCPIP /CREATE >> $ MCR DECW$BOOKREADER >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan > > I?m trying to make the files readable via HECnet, so I need VTBOOK, MGBOOK, > or similar. I see that at least an early Freeware CD had VTB, but the > copy I downloaded appears to be corrupt. > Zane, The content of your posting which I was replying to and the error message you quoted suggested to me that your concern was that the bookreader files you are attempting to read are "corrupt". My suggestion was intended to help you discover whether the bookreader files are "corrupt" or the tools you are using to read them are mishandling them. (In my experience "corrupt" files on VMS are usually due to file attributes being lost when the files were transferred via some other system. On early version of VMS, this can usually be fixed using Joe Meadows' "FILE" utility.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 18 05:57:04 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 11:57:04 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 18/05/2021 10:17, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > The content of your posting which I was replying to and the error > message you > quoted suggested to me that your concern was that the bookreader files you are > attempting to read are "corrupt". I think Zane was reading the files from an ISO image I made of a 1989 CONOLD CDROM. That CDROM had previously been used as a toboggan by one or more members the DEC Reading Engineering Team and so was somewhat heavily scuffed when I got it. I eventually recovered it through a process of manual polishing involving sandpaper and elbow grease. I think ddrescue reported 2048 bad bytes in the end (one sector). It is entirely possible that one or more of the files is corrupt, although the text files (the BOOKSHEFLF files, for example) seem OK. The filesystem structures do seem OK, so maybe I was lucky. > My suggestion was intended to help you discover whether the bookreader files are > "corrupt" or the tools you are using to read them are mishandling them. > > (In my experience "corrupt" files on VMS are usually due to file attributes > being lost when the files were transferred via some other system. On early > version of VMS, this can usually be fixed using Joe Meadows' "FILE" utility.) In this case any corruption will be down to over-enthusiastic handling 20+ years ago. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue May 18 06:10:59 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 12:10:59 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RZ6JITGORE8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 18/05/2021 10:17, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> The content of your posting which I was replying to and the error >> message you >> quoted suggested to me that your concern was that the bookreader files you are >> attempting to read are "corrupt". > > I think Zane was reading the files from an ISO image I made of a 1989 > CONOLD CDROM. > > That CDROM had previously been used as a toboggan by one or more members > the DEC Reading Engineering Team and so was somewhat heavily scuffed > when I got it. > > I eventually recovered it through a process of manual polishing > involving sandpaper and elbow grease. I think ddrescue reported 2048 bad > bytes in the end (one sector). > > It is entirely possible that one or more of the files is corrupt, > although the text files (the BOOKSHEFLF files, for example) seem OK. > > The filesystem structures do seem OK, so maybe I was lucky. > >> My suggestion was intended to help you discover whether the bookreader files are >> "corrupt" or the tools you are using to read them are mishandling them. >> >> (In my experience "corrupt" files on VMS are usually due to file attributes >> being lost when the files were transferred via some other system. On early >> version of VMS, this can usually be fixed using Joe Meadows' "FILE" utility.) > > In this case any corruption will be down to over-enthusiastic handling > 20+ years ago. > I've been following the thread and I suspected as much too. I was trying to offer a suggestion on how to narrow down whether the bookreader files themselves are faulty or the applications being used to process them are faulty as suggested elsewhere. I also wanted to offer a reminder that incorrect file attributes are just as likely, maybe more likely to mess things up as incorrect file contents are, especially when bookshelf files which are just plain text files as far as I recall, seem to be responsible for errors like: %MGBOOK-E-READERR, Error reading bookshelf entry information -RMS-W-RTB, 1022 byte record too large for user's buffer Knowing more details about the problem may lead to finding a solution. It has also since dawned on me that the objective of making the files readable via HECnet can also be met in at least two other ways, either by directing the X output from DECW$BOOKREADER running locally to an X display elsewhere on the HECnet network using DECnet transport or by making it possible for DECW$BOOKREADER running remotely to read the bookreader files via the network. Therefore, it is not strictly necessary to use VTBOOK, MGBOOK etc although it would be good to figure out exactly what is stopping these applications from working correctly. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > From mdehling at gmail.com Tue May 18 07:33:29 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 14:33:29 +0200 Subject: Still looking for VAXSET <= v7.0 Message-ID: <20210518123201.b35lqzcpqzuusfid@x230> Dear list, through Antonio's efforts, we have now archived ISOs for a number of early CONDIST CDs. Unfortunately, this did not help me find a version of the VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x that I was looking for: - CONDIST 1989-07 contains VAXSET v8.0, which requires VMS 5.0/5.1. - CONDIST 1989-05 does not contain any VAXSET components. So my hope now is that someone may still have old TK50 or 9-Track distribution tapes stored away for VAXSET v7.0 or earlier, or for some of its components: - LSE Language Sensitive Editor v2.2 or earlier - SCA Source Code Analyzer v1.2 or earlier - PCA Performance Coverage Analyzer v2.0 or earlier - DTM DEC/Test Manager v2.3 or earlier (I already have CMS and MMS.) Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 18 10:35:53 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 08:35:53 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <8516055D-F992-4665-A4CE-23D7DDE5E5C4@avanthar.com> On May 18, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > Zane Healy wrote: >> On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> Zane, >>> >>> How about redirecting DECW$BOOKREADER to display on an X server elsewhere? >>> >>> $ SET DISPLAY /NODE=domain.name /TRANSPORT=TCPIP /CREATE >>> $ MCR DECW$BOOKREADER >>> >>> Regards, >>> Peter Coghlan >> >> I?m trying to make the files readable via HECnet, so I need VTBOOK, MGBOOK, >> or similar. I see that at least an early Freeware CD had VTB, but the >> copy I downloaded appears to be corrupt. >> > > Zane, > > The content of your posting which I was replying to and the error message you > quoted suggested to me that your concern was that the bookreader files you are > attempting to read are "corrupt". > > My suggestion was intended to help you discover whether the bookreader files are > "corrupt" or the tools you are using to read them are mishandling them. > > (In my experience "corrupt" files on VMS are usually due to file attributes > being lost when the files were transferred via some other system. On early > version of VMS, this can usually be fixed using Joe Meadows' "FILE" utility.) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Sorry Peter, I wasn?t even thinking about that at the time, as Malte had reported he was able to read them with DECW$BOOKREADER. Though thinking about it again, it?s not a bad idea, as it would let me see exactly what I?m seeing. Any pointers to ?FILE?? I?m finding it to be ?fun? to try to track down various tools. Though mention of this made me realize, I should be able to fix file attributes on a 7.3 or 8.3 system. I think the install for VTB needs that. I?m *STILL* trying to find the original VTBOOK. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 18 10:37:57 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 08:37:57 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4B86F4A3-025C-4112-8833-52060EBEE78C@avanthar.com> > On May 18, 2021, at 3:57 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > I think Zane was reading the files from an ISO image I made of a 1989 CONOLD CDROM. Correct. > That CDROM had previously been used as a toboggan by one or more members the DEC Reading Engineering Team and so was somewhat heavily scuffed when I got it. > > I eventually recovered it through a process of manual polishing involving sandpaper and elbow grease. I think ddrescue reported 2048 bad bytes in the end (one sector). > > It is entirely possible that one or more of the files is corrupt, although the text files (the BOOKSHEFLF files, for example) seem OK. > > The filesystem structures do seem OK, so maybe I was lucky. I?m not really concerned with corruption of the BOOK files, I think my problem is with the tool I?m trying to read them with. Since Malte Dehling reports being able to read them with DECW$BOOKREADER, I think they?re okay. Zane From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue May 18 11:05:09 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:05:09 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <8516055D-F992-4665-A4CE-23D7DDE5E5C4@avanthar.com> References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RZ6S4ZI9008WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> Zane Healy wrote: > > Sorry Peter, I wasn?t even thinking about that at the time, as Malte had > reported he was able to read them with DECW$BOOKREADER. Though thinking > about it again, it?s not a bad idea, as it would let me see exactly what > I?m seeing. > > Any pointers to ?FILE?? I?m finding it to be ?fun? to try to > track down various tools. Though mention of this made me realize, I > should be able to fix file attributes on a 7.3 or 8.3 system. I think > the install for VTB needs that. I?m *STILL* trying to find the original > VTBOOK. > FILE is a tricky keyword to search for, isn't it :-) I think it should be on the freeware CDs but there is also a copy here: http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software.html Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Zane > From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 18 11:41:42 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 09:41:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <01RZ6S4ZI9008WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20210510090530.a3mgvhswje7zu34h@x230> <66da2000-5d88-4d73-6f22-35b41783337a@ntlworld.com> <20210510144858.gx3hkommvy3fxz72@x230> <20210512125226.r3sv42dqg5giucid@x230> <20210512125809.5xm5y6ns7emqu6nj@x230> <20210514094709.mq2eadmcsbrf2ebf@x230> <20210516125145.y5udqkhzwq7bo44c@x230> <20210517205439.wh742b26egvdp3n3@x230> <01RZ5PQ0EWPC8WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> <01RZ6EBD6GJQ8Y4X1W@beyondthepale.ie> <01RZ6S4ZI9008WVZA5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <8BBF6FA4-7398-416B-A668-7960839EBBD6@avanthar.com> > On May 18, 2021, at 9:05 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > Zane Healy wrote: >> >> Sorry Peter, I wasn?t even thinking about that at the time, as Malte had >> reported he was able to read them with DECW$BOOKREADER. Though thinking >> about it again, it?s not a bad idea, as it would let me see exactly what >> I?m seeing. >> >> Any pointers to ?FILE?? I?m finding it to be ?fun? to try to >> track down various tools. Though mention of this made me realize, I >> should be able to fix file attributes on a 7.3 or 8.3 system. I think >> the install for VTB needs that. I?m *STILL* trying to find the original >> VTBOOK. >> > > FILE is a tricky keyword to search for, isn't it :-) > > I think it should be on the freeware CDs but there is also a copy here: > > http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software.html > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. It is indeed tricky to search for ?FILE?. :-) Anyway, thanks to you jogging my memory, I have VTB installed on PDXVAX, which makes the files from the CD readable. I simply reset the file attributes on the saveset using OpenVMS 8.3, and I was able to install VTB013.A with no problem. VTB works great, so I think the problem is MGBOOK, which is unfortunate, as its UI is easier to use. I finally found VTBOOK, though I haven?t tried it, it can be found at. http://decuslib.com/decus/vs0174/vtbook/ The contents of the July 1989 CONOLD CD-ROM are now available on PDXVAX, which is accessible on HECnet. Zane From lee.gleason at comcast.net Tue May 18 12:20:34 2021 From: lee.gleason at comcast.net (Lee Gleason) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 12:20:34 -0500 Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes Message-ID: ? DECnet for Pro350/380 was donated to DECUS, available as? DECUS package PRO175. A quick Goog found the floppy disk images for it at http://www.os2site.com/sw/DEC/pro/pro175/index.html. If that site doesn't work out, or you don't like them in LHARC format, let me know - I have them as normal dsk files. DECnet on the PRO's was end node only, you could run it DDCMP on an asynch line, or on the rare, elusive, DECNA ethernet card - but not both at once. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed May 19 14:10:45 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 15:10:45 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THanks Lee!! Much appreciated - confirmed my decaying memory, and pointed out the the almost mythical DECNA!! bb On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 1:38 PM wrote: > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes (Lee Gleason) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 12:20:34 -0500 > From: Lee Gleason > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > ? DECnet for Pro350/380 was donated to DECUS, available as? DECUS > package PRO175. A quick Goog found the floppy disk images for it at > http://www.os2site.com/sw/DEC/pro/pro175/index.html. If that site > doesn't work out, or you don't like them in LHARC format, let me know - > I have them as normal dsk files. DECnet on the PRO's was end node only, > you could run it DDCMP on an asynch line, or on the rare, elusive, DECNA > ethernet card - but not both at once. > > -- > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lee.gleason at comcast.net > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 17 > ************************************** From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 19 19:50:33 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 17:50:33 -0700 Subject: Melted computer feet Message-ID: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted ?rubber? feet on a plastic case? I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I received from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). When I pulled it out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m assuming probably made a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it was on top of. Zane From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Wed May 19 19:52:16 2021 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:52:16 +1000 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Goo Gone is one option but may harm the plastic case. Orange based cleaners are also good - the ones that remove stickers etc Sent from my iPad > On 20 May 2021, at 10:50 am, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > ?Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted ?rubber? feet on a plastic case? > > I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I received from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). When I pulled it out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m assuming probably made a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it was on top of. > > Zane > > > From doug at doughq.com Wed May 19 20:32:32 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 11:32:32 +1000 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I use any of the 'Orange' based goo gone type cleaners for labels. Be careful to have an absorbent tissue. Once the black goo has been dissolved, mop it up quickly - otherwise in the next few weeks you will find black smears everywhere wnd wonder where they came from. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Thu, 20 May 2021 at 10:52, David Collins via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Goo Gone is one option but may harm the plastic case. > > Orange based cleaners are also good - the ones that remove stickers etc > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 20 May 2021, at 10:50 am, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted ?rubber? feet on > a plastic case? > > > > I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I > received from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). When I > pulled it out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m assuming > probably made a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it > was on top of. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > From steven at malikoff.com Wed May 19 21:33:19 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:33:19 +1000 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Zane said > Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted ?rubber? feet on a plastic case? > > I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I received from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). When I pulled it out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m assuming probably made a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it was on top of. Owing to it's common availability where I am, I use Double-D Eucalyptus Oil for that sort of cleaning task. It can be diluted with water as it's fairly strong. Once I used it full-strength on a tissue to clean the price label goo off CD jewel cases and it fogged the clear plastic a tiny bit, but after dilution it was fine. Steve From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 19 22:10:43 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 20:10:43 -0700 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <79A284FC-8E61-4230-B2D5-D8D4E2AA5A93@avanthar.com> On May 19, 2021, at 5:52 PM, David Collins wrote: > > Goo Gone is one option but may harm the plastic case. That was my suspicion, of course that?s also what I know we have. > Orange based cleaners are also good - the ones that remove stickers etc Hopefully my wife has some of this. Thanks, Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 19 22:11:32 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 20:11:32 -0700 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <4B70C4B3-8354-4E80-A0AE-5547D1C75578@avanthar.com> Good advice, though oddly enough, this is grey, rather than the normal black. Zane > On May 19, 2021, at 6:32 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > I use any of the 'Orange' based goo gone type cleaners for labels. > > Be careful to have an absorbent tissue. Once the black goo has been > dissolved, mop it up quickly - otherwise in the next few weeks you will > find black smears everywhere wnd wonder where they came from. > > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for > your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which > case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal > liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally > sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G > > > > > On Thu, 20 May 2021 at 10:52, David Collins via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Goo Gone is one option but may harm the plastic case. >> >> Orange based cleaners are also good - the ones that remove stickers etc >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 20 May 2021, at 10:50 am, Zane Healy via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> ?Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted ?rubber? feet on >> a plastic case? >>> >>> I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I >> received from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). When I >> pulled it out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m assuming >> probably made a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it >> was on top of. >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >>> >> From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 19 22:12:18 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 20:12:18 -0700 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <477BF549-EE6A-4FDD-A7EA-DD604E4E9948@avanthar.com> > On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > Zane said >> Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted ?rubber? feet on a plastic case? >> >> I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I received from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). When I pulled it out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m assuming probably made a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it was on > top of. > > Owing to it's common availability where I am, I use Double-D Eucalyptus Oil for that sort of cleaning task. > It can be diluted with water as it's fairly strong. Once I used it full-strength on a tissue to clean the > price label goo off CD jewel cases and it fogged the clear plastic a tiny bit, but after dilution it was fine. > > Steve I?ve never seen anything like this, I?ll try the orange cleaner route first. Thanks, Zane From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed May 19 23:42:46 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:42:46 +0800 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I usually try the following commonly available chemicals listed in increasing strength: 1) warm water with detergent on a microfibre cloth and some elbow grease 2) alcohol 3) lighter fluid or white spirit 4) acetone (apply carefully and quickly) Acetone is really the last resort because it will readily dissolve many plastics. The key here is to put a small amount on lint-free cloth and quickly wipe over the affected area and immediately discard the cloth as it will otherwise stick to the partially dissolved plastic. Cheers Tom On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 8:50 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted ?rubber? feet on a > plastic case? > > I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I received > from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). When I pulled it > out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m assuming probably made > a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it was on top of. > > Zane > > > > From macro at orcam.me.uk Thu May 20 00:14:18 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 07:14:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I > received from a list member, back around 1998 (it?s never worked). > When I pulled it out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I?m > assuming probably made a mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation > 3100 that it was on top of. I always use IPA with this stuff, as I did with my VAXstation 4000/90 which suffered from this very problem many years ago. I tend to use 3M replacement feet then, some of which I've had for 20+ years now with no sign of deterioration so far, longer than the original DEC feet survived. I'd have to look up the P/N though as I don't have it handy. HTH, Maciej From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu May 20 02:13:22 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 09:13:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 May 2021, David Collins wrote: > Orange based cleaners are also good - the ones that remove stickers etc That will dissolve plastics! Don't use orange based cleaners. I just use normal 97% ethanol (called Spiritus here). That will work just fine. Christian From lars at nocrew.org Thu May 20 02:17:20 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 07:17:20 +0000 Subject: VT100 dot stretching in reverse video Message-ID: <7wbl95q3gf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, Is there anyone with a VT100 (or any VT1xx, if so please specify which) that can make a photo displaying text in reverse video? I'm making a detailed simulation of the VT100 hardware, and I'd like to see what, if any, effect dot streching has. I searched the "VT100 Technical Manual", but as far as I can see it doesn't say. A good sample text would be: ESC [ 7 m b d h x CR LF ESC [ 0 m b d h x CR LF From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Thu May 20 00:56:26 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 22:56:26 -0700 Subject: Sun 3/80 parts Message-ID: Hi All, I lent my Sun 3/80 out to someone and it came back pretty damaged. Does anyone by chance have an old 3/80 carcass laying around that has a good rear plastic bezel P/N 600-2209-02? If not, does anyone have any plastic repair suggestions? Also one of the rear feet (narrower rear one) opposite the PSU was missing... -Kurt From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Thu May 20 02:23:13 2021 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 17:23:13 +1000 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25434A57-EC18-4AF4-82B7-58CDAECC0A8C@gmail.com> I?ve used Orange based cleaners a lot in restoring old HP equipment. It does affect some plastics -polystyrene in particular- but it?s not as harsh as Goo Gone and should be wiped off quickly anyway. It does not affect most other plastics in my experience. David Sent from my iPad > On 20 May 2021, at 5:13 pm, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Thu, 20 May 2021, David Collins wrote: >> Orange based cleaners are also good - the ones that remove stickers etc > > That will dissolve plastics! Don't use orange based cleaners. I just use normal 97% ethanol (called Spiritus here). That will work just fine. > > Christian From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu May 20 04:19:23 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:19:23 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VT100 dot stretching in reverse video In-Reply-To: <7wbl95q3gf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <01RZ96KRRQMC8Y527X@beyondthepale.ie> > > Is there anyone with a VT100 (or any VT1xx, if so please specify which) > that can make a photo displaying text in reverse video? I'm making a > detailed simulation of the VT100 hardware, and I'd like to see what, if > any, effect dot streching has. I searched the "VT100 Technical Manual", > but as far as I can see it doesn't say. > > A good sample text would be: > > ESC [ 7 m b d h x CR LF > ESC [ 0 m b d h x CR LF > Would a photograph of a VT220 be any use? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 20 08:10:11 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 09:10:11 -0400 Subject: Melted computer feet In-Reply-To: References: <3BBFBCC9-D141-4C12-8EA2-43B5B46F8C92@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2DB7AF89-F959-454D-BDA9-25910C1A1504@comcast.net> > On May 20, 2021, at 12:42 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I usually try the following commonly available chemicals listed in > increasing strength: > > 1) warm water with detergent on a microfibre cloth and some elbow grease > 2) alcohol > 3) lighter fluid or white spirit > 4) acetone (apply carefully and quickly) > > Acetone is really the last resort because it will readily dissolve many > plastics. True, but strong solvents are a fine answer if you're dealing with metal cases. My default solvent for that case is lacquer thinner, which is a blend of ketones and (I think) toluene; it is far more effective than acetone for taking off rubbery crud. It is also even more likely than acetone to attack plastic. A chemical engineer friend who worked for an adhesives company told me that a gentle solvent (good for adhesives stuck to plastic) is WD-40. Alcohol is generally safe with plastics, but there are exceptions. Plexiglas ("lucite") will turn cloudy when exposed to alcohol, as I found out when cleaning the case of a transmitter that had a plexiglas cover over the display. For any solvent, it's always a good idea to test it first on an inconspicuous part of the case you're dealing with. paul From lars at nocrew.org Thu May 20 08:40:01 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 13:40:01 +0000 Subject: VT100 dot stretching in reverse video In-Reply-To: <01RZ96KRRQMC8Y527X@beyondthepale.ie> (Peter Coghlan via cctalk's message of "Thu, 20 May 2021 10:19:23 +0100 (WET-DST)") References: <01RZ96KRRQMC8Y527X@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <7w4kexplqm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Peter Coghlan wrote: > Would a photograph of a VT220 be any use? Thanks, but no. I already have one myself. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 20 10:00:01 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 11:00:01 -0400 Subject: VT100 dot stretching in reverse video In-Reply-To: <7w4kexplqm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <01RZ96KRRQMC8Y527X@beyondthepale.ie> <7w4kexplqm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: I can do this, please specify how you need it (format/resolution/size), what you want to see on the screen. Bill On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:40 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Peter Coghlan wrote: > > Would a photograph of a VT220 be any use? > > Thanks, but no. I already have one myself. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu May 20 12:15:43 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:15:43 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? Message-ID: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> What sort of mice does a VAXstation 4000 (vlc/60/90) take? I?m pretty sure they don?t need a DEC ?hockey puck? mouse. I?m trying to get a VAXstation setup as? A VAXstation! I?ve always run them headless, usually with SBB?s in a BA353 or BA350. Zane From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 12:22:05 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 17:22:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 10:16:03 AM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >. What sort of mice does a VAXstation 4000 (vlc/60/90) take?? I?m pretty sure they don?t need a DEC ?hockey puck? mouse. It does indeed need a VSXXX-AA mouse (the round puck) or a VSXXX-AB tablet (or compatible). \ I recently checked both installation guide and service guide, whilst looking at eBay offerings. From mdehling at gmail.com Thu May 20 12:39:28 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:39:28 +0200 Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20210520173928.x22j7zpowwgpohcp@x230> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 05:22:05PM +0000, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 10:16:03 AM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > What sort of mice does a VAXstation 4000 (vlc/60/90) take?? I?m > > pretty sure they don?t need a DEC ?hockey puck? mouse. > > It does indeed need a VSXXX-AA mouse (the round puck) or a VSXXX-AB > tablet (or compatible). \ I recently checked both installation guide > and service guide, whilst looking at eBay offerings. The VSXXX-GA mouse or VSXXX-AB tablet is the correct model for the 4000 series, but the older puck mouse (VSXXX-AA) will work as well. -- Malte Dehling From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu May 20 12:57:44 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:57:44 -0500 Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2bd3c5ea-4a19-d4d6-0151-d1bce07b9654@gmail.com> Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > What sort of mice does a VAXstation 4000 (vlc/60/90) take? I?m pretty sure they don?t need a DEC ?hockey puck? mouse. > > I?m trying to get a VAXstation setup as? A VAXstation! I?ve always run them headless, usually with SBB?s in a BA353 or BA350. IIRC, I used a three-button VSXXX-GA with my 4000/60 when I was using it with a monitor. Then the monitor died and haven't had the time to fix it; since then, it is running headless. carlos. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 12:58:22 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 17:58:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <20210520173928.x22j7zpowwgpohcp@x230> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> <20210520173928.x22j7zpowwgpohcp@x230> Message-ID: <1402711610.818543.1621533502350@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 10:38:56 AM PDT, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: > The VSXXX-GA mouse or VSXXX-AB tablet is the correct model for the 4000 > series, but the older puck mouse (VSXXX-AA) will work as well. Exactly, since the -GA is compatible with the -AA. And the MoseTrack model M5 DEC trackball should work too, if you can find one in working condition. The Service Guide really does say "VSXXX-AA mouse or VSXXX-AB tablet" EK-V48VB-SV.001, p. 1-1. I've never owned a VLC, so I don't know what was actually delivered. I can't find EK-VAXVL-OG. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 20 13:53:37 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:53:37 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> On 20/05/2021 18:22, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > It does indeed need a VSXXX-AA mouse (the round puck) or a VSXXX-AB > tablet (or compatible). \ > I recently checked both installation guide and service guide, whilst looking at eBay offerings. I recently went through my DEC mice to test them (so I can create eBay offerings for the spares!) and all the -AA, -GA (and one other that escapes me right now) tested OK on a VS4000-60. At least one of those was originally used on my VAXstation 3100-M76. If it looks like "that" sort of connector and it is a VSXXX-xx then I do suspect that it will work in any VAXstation up to and including the VAXstation 4000-96. In fact I recently sold one (privately) for use on a VAXstation II. I think those mice will also work on the DECstation 2100/3100/5000 range , except for the Personal versions. You may need an adapter though. They (I think) even work in the early Alpha workstations (the DEC 3000 stuff); I don't think DEC switched to PS/2 mice until the AlphaStation name came out. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 14:00:41 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:00:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <463742149.865840.1621537241385@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 11:53:50 AM PDT, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: On 20/05/2021 18:22, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > It does indeed need a VSXXX-AA mouse (the round puck) or a VSXXX-AB > tablet (or compatible). \ > I recently checked both installation guide and service guide, whilst looking at eBay offerings. > I recently went through my DEC mice to test them (so I can create eBay > offerings for the spares!) and all the -AA, -GA (and one other that > escapes me right now) tested OK on a VS4000-60. At least one of those > was originally used on my VAXstation 3100-M76. > If it looks like "that" sort of connector and it is a VSXXX-xx then I do > suspect that it will work in any VAXstation up to and including the > VAXstation 4000-96. In fact I recently sold one (privately) for use on a > VAXstation II. Agreed. > I think those mice will also work on the DECstation 2100/3100/5000 range > except for the Personal versions. You may need an adapter though They do. No adapter needed, aside from the 15-pin to LK201/min-DIN cable. (A Vaxstation II or DECstation 3100/2100 cable will work; just ignore the BNC). > They (I think) even work in the early Alpha workstations (the DEC 3000 > stuff); I don't think DEC switched to PS/2 mice until the AlphaStation > name came out. They do work on Turbochannel Alphas. I swapped an -AA mouse for a -GA, for a grad school friend who spent a lot of time playing Xconq on an Alpha 3000/300. He said the round mouse was better for gaming. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 14:06:50 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:06:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <580711397.850293.1621537610664@mail.yahoo.com> Speak of the devil: https://www.ebay.com/itm/393325339070 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 20 14:28:48 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:28:48 -0700 Subject: DEC DUP Message-ID: posting this over here, if anyone has any clues for this guy i could dig in the DEC archive but it won't be any fun to find https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/dec/1209678-documentation-for-dec-dup-protocol-as-used-by-dec-diagnostics-such-as-xxdp-on-rqdx3#post1209697 From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 20 14:31:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:31:45 -0700 Subject: RT-11 .DPA and .DPY files Message-ID: I've just finished processing a bunch of RX01 and RX02 RT11A disks. The files on the RX01 floppies are of type .DPA and those on the RX02 ones, DPY. No files of any other type in the whole collection. I have no other information, but I suspect that these are plotter files. Both types seem to start with the same prefix bytes, for example: 06 00 f0 00 40 00 00 01 00 1e ff ff 00 00 00 00 Does anyone have a guide to how these files are structured? Thanks, Chuck From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 20 14:49:47 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 20:49:47 +0100 Subject: DEC DUP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/05/2021 20:28, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > posting this over here, if anyone has any clues for this guy > i could dig in the DEC archive but it won't be any fun to find > > https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/dec/1209678-documentation-for-dec-dup-protocol-as-used-by-dec-diagnostics-such-as-xxdp-on-rqdx3#post1209697 > The OpenVMS driver is FYDRIVER. I can look for the listings if nobody finds any better docs. Those listings might be censored/incomplete/missing so I wouldn't hold out too much hope. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 20 14:56:17 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 20:56:17 +0100 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux Message-ID: I'm running Linux Mint (an ubuntu derivative) and I want to mount ULTRIX CDROM discs to see what I can see. (I'm eventually going to image these, but I presume that will "just work" with dd or ddrescue). They are supposed to be UFS format (according to the net) and that usually means you have to tell mount exactly which option to use (as not all UFS implementations are compatible). I've tried (all the options I can find) and failed: $ sudo mount -t ufs? -o ufstype=44bsd /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount mount: /tmp/mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr1, missing codepage or helper program, or other error. The CDROM would appear to be readable 9and I've tried a few anyway): $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on /UPS_MOUNT_TAR_SOURCE, last written at Wed Sep 28 16:27:45 1994, clean flag 30, number of blocks 243648, number of data blocks 233295, number of cylinder groups 38, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum percentage of free blocks 10, rotational delay 0ms, disk rotational speed 60rps, TIME optimization A later Digital Unix CDROM behaves the same way with mount and reports this with file: $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on /kits/tmp/gendisk17665/mnt, last written at Wed Nov 20 13:38:02 1996, clean flag 3, number of blocks 151168, number of data blocks 150383, number of cylinder groups 24, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum percentage of free blocks 0, rotational delay 0ms, disk rotational speed 60rps, SPACE optimization I also have a few OSF/1 CDROMs, which I assume are also the same format. Any ideas? I can't be the first person to try to do this ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From imp at bsdimp.com Thu May 20 15:01:21 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 14:01:21 -0600 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:56 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm running Linux Mint (an ubuntu derivative) and I want to mount ULTRIX > CDROM discs to see what I can see. > > (I'm eventually going to image these, but I presume that will "just > work" with dd or ddrescue). > > They are supposed to be UFS format (according to the net) and that > usually means you have to tell mount exactly which option to use (as not > all UFS implementations are compatible). > > > I've tried (all the options I can find) and failed: > > > $ sudo mount -t ufs -o ufstype=44bsd /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount > 44bsd is likely too new. ufstype=old or =sunos or =sun might work. Warner > mount: /tmp/mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on > /dev/sr1, missing codepage or helper program, or other error. > > > The CDROM would appear to be readable 9and I've tried a few anyway): > > $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 > /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on > /UPS_MOUNT_TAR_SOURCE, last written at Wed Sep 28 16:27:45 1994, clean > flag 30, number of blocks 243648, number of data blocks 233295, number > of cylinder groups 38, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum > percentage of free blocks 10, rotational delay 0ms, disk rotational > speed 60rps, TIME optimization > > > A later Digital Unix CDROM behaves the same way with mount and reports > this with file: > > $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 > /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on > /kits/tmp/gendisk17665/mnt, last written at Wed Nov 20 13:38:02 1996, > clean flag 3, number of blocks 151168, number of data blocks 150383, > number of cylinder groups 24, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, > minimum percentage of free blocks 0, rotational delay 0ms, disk > rotational speed 60rps, SPACE optimization > > > I also have a few OSF/1 CDROMs, which I assume are also the same format. > > > Any ideas? I can't be the first person to try to do this ... > > > Antonio > > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > > From mdehling at gmail.com Thu May 20 15:03:53 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 22:03:53 +0200 Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <1402711610.818543.1621533502350@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> <20210520173928.x22j7zpowwgpohcp@x230> <1402711610.818543.1621533502350@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20210520200153.lykdfxl3k2stocpk@x230> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 05:58:22PM +0000, Jonathan Stone wrote: > > > On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 10:38:56 AM PDT, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: > > > The VSXXX-GA mouse or VSXXX-AB tablet is the correct model for the 4000 > > series, but the older puck mouse (VSXXX-AA) will work as well. > > Exactly, since the -GA is compatible with the -AA. And the MoseTrack > model M5 DEC trackball should work too, if you can find one in working > condition. The Service Guide really does say "VSXXX-AA mouse or > VSXXX-AB tablet" EK-V48VB-SV.001, p. 1-1. Interesting. I looked it up in the "VAXstation 4000 Model 60 and VLC Condensed Service Information" (EK-V466H-PS.A01), and on page D-4 (for the Model 60) and page D-8 (for the VLC) it lists the VSXXX-GA (and the tablet, but only for the Model 60,) but not the VSXXX-AA :-) > I've never owned a VLC, so I don't know what was actually delivered. I > can't find EK-VAXVL-OG. Neither do I. -- Malte Dehling From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 15:10:08 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 20:10:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <551490210.22659.1621541408035@mail.yahoo.com> Ultrix UFS is 4.2SD plus some big fixes. It's definitely pre-4.3BSD. So 44BSD won't work. I hit fsck errors anytime I mounted Ultrix FFS read-write with (very early NetBSD). You may be better off if you can try with *BSD. OSF1/Digital Unix/Tru64 has a newer FFS, definitely 4.3BSD or newer -- perhaps 4.4-Lite? -- but I've never tried it with Ultrix media. On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 01:00:51 PM PDT, Antonio Carlini via cctech wrote: I'm running Linux Mint (an ubuntu derivative) and I want to mount ULTRIX CDROM discs to see what I can see. (I'm eventually going to image these, but I presume that will "just work" with dd or ddrescue). They are supposed to be UFS format (according to the net) and that usually means you have to tell mount exactly which option to use (as not all UFS implementations are compatible). I've tried (all the options I can find) and failed: $ sudo mount -t ufs? -o ufstype=44bsd /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount mount: /tmp/mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr1, missing codepage or helper program, or other error. The CDROM would appear to be readable 9and I've tried a few anyway): $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on /UPS_MOUNT_TAR_SOURCE, last written at Wed Sep 28 16:27:45 1994, clean flag 30, number of blocks 243648, number of data blocks 233295, number of cylinder groups 38, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum percentage of free blocks 10, rotational delay 0ms, disk rotational speed 60rps, TIME optimization A later Digital Unix CDROM behaves the same way with mount and reports this with file: $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on /kits/tmp/gendisk17665/mnt, last written at Wed Nov 20 13:38:02 1996, clean flag 3, number of blocks 151168, number of data blocks 150383, number of cylinder groups 24, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum percentage of free blocks 0, rotational delay 0ms, disk rotational speed 60rps, SPACE optimization I also have a few OSF/1 CDROMs, which I assume are also the same format. Any ideas? I can't be the first person to try to do this ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 15:10:08 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 20:10:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <551490210.22659.1621541408035@mail.yahoo.com> Ultrix UFS is 4.2SD plus some big fixes. It's definitely pre-4.3BSD. So 44BSD won't work. I hit fsck errors anytime I mounted Ultrix FFS read-write with (very early NetBSD). You may be better off if you can try with *BSD. OSF1/Digital Unix/Tru64 has a newer FFS, definitely 4.3BSD or newer -- perhaps 4.4-Lite? -- but I've never tried it with Ultrix media. On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 01:00:51 PM PDT, Antonio Carlini via cctech wrote: I'm running Linux Mint (an ubuntu derivative) and I want to mount ULTRIX CDROM discs to see what I can see. (I'm eventually going to image these, but I presume that will "just work" with dd or ddrescue). They are supposed to be UFS format (according to the net) and that usually means you have to tell mount exactly which option to use (as not all UFS implementations are compatible). I've tried (all the options I can find) and failed: $ sudo mount -t ufs? -o ufstype=44bsd /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount mount: /tmp/mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr1, missing codepage or helper program, or other error. The CDROM would appear to be readable 9and I've tried a few anyway): $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on /UPS_MOUNT_TAR_SOURCE, last written at Wed Sep 28 16:27:45 1994, clean flag 30, number of blocks 243648, number of data blocks 233295, number of cylinder groups 38, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum percentage of free blocks 10, rotational delay 0ms, disk rotational speed 60rps, TIME optimization A later Digital Unix CDROM behaves the same way with mount and reports this with file: $ sudo file -s /dev/sr1 /dev/sr1: Unix Fast File system [v1] (little-endian), last mounted on /kits/tmp/gendisk17665/mnt, last written at Wed Nov 20 13:38:02 1996, clean flag 3, number of blocks 151168, number of data blocks 150383, number of cylinder groups 24, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum percentage of free blocks 0, rotational delay 0ms, disk rotational speed 60rps, SPACE optimization I also have a few OSF/1 CDROMs, which I assume are also the same format. Any ideas? I can't be the first person to try to do this ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From mdehling at gmail.com Thu May 20 15:11:16 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 22:11:16 +0200 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210520201116.qprflscgvxe2c5bf@x230> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 02:01:21PM -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:56 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I'm running Linux Mint (an ubuntu derivative) and I want to mount ULTRIX > > CDROM discs to see what I can see. > > > > (I'm eventually going to image these, but I presume that will "just > > work" with dd or ddrescue). > > > > They are supposed to be UFS format (according to the net) and that > > usually means you have to tell mount exactly which option to use (as not > > all UFS implementations are compatible). > > > > > > I've tried (all the options I can find) and failed: > > > > > > $ sudo mount -t ufs -o ufstype=44bsd /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount > > > > 44bsd is likely too new. ufstype=old or =sunos or =sun might work. I just tried on an Ultrix 4.5 ISO and I was able to mount it with ufstype=old or without a ufstype option. Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Thu May 20 15:11:18 2021 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 16:11:18 -0400 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-05-20 4:01 p.m., Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:56 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I'm running Linux Mint (an ubuntu derivative) and I want to mount ULTRIX >> CDROM discs to see what I can see. >> >> (I'm eventually going to image these, but I presume that will "just >> work" with dd or ddrescue). >> >> They are supposed to be UFS format (according to the net) and that >> usually means you have to tell mount exactly which option to use (as not >> all UFS implementations are compatible). >> >> I've tried (all the options I can find) and failed: >> >> $ sudo mount -t ufs -o ufstype=44bsd /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount > > 44bsd is likely too new. ufstype=old or =sunos or =sun might work. Setting ufstype=sun will indeed work for loopback mounting Ultrix CD images. With physical CDs, the Linux CD-ROM driver expects the filesystem to use 2048 byte blocks but the UFS CDs have 512 byte blocks. So you'll also have to add "loop" to the options: sudo mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=sun,loop /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount That will mount the physical CD using a loopback device so you can access the 512 byte per block filesystem. (FWIW, I learned that trick with IRIX EFS CDs, which have the same problem.) From mdehling at gmail.com Thu May 20 15:15:29 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 22:15:29 +0200 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210520201529.goyzjmvkcqlgf3qb@x230> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 04:11:18PM -0400, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-05-20 4:01 p.m., Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:56 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I'm running Linux Mint (an ubuntu derivative) and I want to mount ULTRIX > >> CDROM discs to see what I can see. > >> > >> (I'm eventually going to image these, but I presume that will "just > >> work" with dd or ddrescue). > >> > >> They are supposed to be UFS format (according to the net) and that > >> usually means you have to tell mount exactly which option to use (as not > >> all UFS implementations are compatible). > >> > >> I've tried (all the options I can find) and failed: > >> > >> $ sudo mount -t ufs -o ufstype=44bsd /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount > > > > 44bsd is likely too new. ufstype=old or =sunos or =sun might work. > > Setting ufstype=sun will indeed work for loopback mounting Ultrix CD images. > > With physical CDs, the Linux CD-ROM driver expects the filesystem to use > 2048 byte blocks but the UFS CDs have 512 byte blocks. So you'll also > have to add "loop" to the options: > > sudo mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=sun,loop /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount > > That will mount the physical CD using a loopback device so you can > access the 512 byte per block filesystem. (FWIW, I learned that trick > with IRIX EFS CDs, which have the same problem.) Wow! I never expected to learn something new about mounting CDs tonight :-) Thanks! -- Malte Dehling From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 20 15:49:52 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 21:49:52 +0100 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> On 20/05/2021 21:11, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > > Setting ufstype=sun will indeed work for loopback mounting Ultrix CD images. > > With physical CDs, the Linux CD-ROM driver expects the filesystem to use > 2048 byte blocks but the UFS CDs have 512 byte blocks. So you'll also > have to add "loop" to the options: > > sudo mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=sun,loop /dev/sr1 /tmp/mount > > That will mount the physical CD using a loopback device so you can > access the 512 byte per block filesystem. (FWIW, I learned that trick > with IRIX EFS CDs, which have the same problem.) We have a winner: $ ls /tmp/mount/decw_book/ bookbrowser????????????? d3b0aa70.decw_book d3knaa23.decw_book?????? d3s1aa97.decw_book d5e5aaa8.decw_book?????? dh87zaa1.decw_bookshelf dt59aaa8.decw_book BRM410?????????????????? d3b0aa71.decw_book d3knaa24.decw_book?????? d3s1aaa1.decw_book d5e5aaa9.decw_book?????? dhqdaa11.decw_book dt59aaa9.decw_book BRV410?????????????????? d3b0aa72.decw_book d3knaa25.decw_book?????? d3s1aaa2.decw_book d5e5zaa2.decw_bookshelf? dhu3aaa3.decw_book dt59zaa1.decw_bookshelf d296aaa1.decw_book?????? d3b0aa73.decw_book d3knaa26.decw_book?????? d3s1aaa3.decw_book d8dlaaa1.decw_book?????? dhu3aaa4.decw_book dt59zaa2.decw_bookshelf d296aaa2.decw_book?????? d3b0aaa1.decw_book d3knaa27.decw_book?????? d3s1aaa4.decw_book d8dlaaa6.decw_book?????? dhu3zaa2.decw_bookshelf dt59zaa3.decw_bookshelf ... Great, thanks for that. I would probably have never guessed that I needed loop. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 16:05:45 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 21:05:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> MacOS (Mojave) can mount an image read from a 512-byte UFS CD. What does one have to do (Linux, MacOS, *BSD) to write such an image to the CD with 512-byte blocks, so it can be read by a DEC boot-ROM? From chris at groessler.org Thu May 20 16:15:23 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 23:15:23 +0200 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/20/21 11:05 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > MacOS (Mojave) can mount an image read from a 512-byte UFS CD. > > What does one have to do (Linux, MacOS, *BSD) to write such an image to the CD with 512-byte blocks, so it can be read by a DEC boot-ROM? I think that's a property of the CD drive, not the disk itself. I've got a Plextor CD writer which can be jumpered between 2048 and 512 byte blocks. I was able to boot the Ultrix installation CD (MIPS) on a DECServer. regards, chris From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 20 16:26:58 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 21:26:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <507892977.26435.1621546018213@mail.yahoo.com> [[ apologies for top-post: Y! issue ]] I know that to be bootable on DECstation/VAX/early Alpha, CD-ROMs needs to be jumpered to 512-byte blocks. Like RRD4x. Does the burning CD write need to be jumpered to 512-bytes? Or can one write on a "normal" CD burner, then read on a 512-byte-block CD-ROM ? If the former, I guess I'll have to find an old, 512-byte-block jumperable SCSI CD burner. On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 02:15:39 PM PDT, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: On 5/20/21 11:05 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >? MacOS (Mojave) can mount an image read from a 512-byte UFS CD. > > What does one have to do (Linux, MacOS, *BSD) to write such an image to the CD with 512-byte blocks, so it can be read by a DEC boot-ROM? I think that's a property of the CD drive, not the disk itself. I've got a Plextor CD writer which can be jumpered between 2048 and 512 byte blocks. I was able to boot the Ultrix installation CD (MIPS) on a DECServer. regards, chris From chris at groessler.org Thu May 20 16:45:40 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 23:45:40 +0200 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: <507892977.26435.1621546018213@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> <507892977.26435.1621546018213@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: More top-post alert! :-) IIRC I had burned the Ultrix CD "normally" (means without fiddling with block size, so not 512), but changed the block size to 512 for booting it. IIRC #2, burning was done on another drive, not the Plextor. regards, chris On 5/20/21 11:26 PM, Jonathan Stone wrote: > > [[ apologies for top-post: Y! issue ]] > > I know that to be bootable on DECstation/VAX/early Alpha, CD-ROMs > needs to be jumpered to 512-byte blocks. Like RRD4x. > > Does the burning CD write need to be jumpered to 512-bytes? Or can one > write on a "normal" CD burner, then read on a 512-byte-block CD-ROM ? > If the former, I guess I'll have to find an old, 512-byte-block > jumperable SCSI CD burner. > On Thursday, May 20, 2021, 02:15:39 PM PDT, Christian Groessler via > cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/20/21 11:05 PM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > >? MacOS (Mojave) can mount an image read from a 512-byte UFS CD. > > > > What does one have to do (Linux, MacOS, *BSD) to write such an image > to the CD with 512-byte blocks, so it can be read by a DEC boot-ROM? > > > I think that's a property of the CD drive, not the disk itself. > > I've got a Plextor CD writer which can be jumpered between 2048 and 512 > > byte blocks. > > > I was able to boot the Ultrix installation CD (MIPS) on a DECServer. > > regards, > chris > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu May 20 16:51:58 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 14:51:58 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On May 20, 2021, at 11:53 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 20/05/2021 18:22, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >> It does indeed need a VSXXX-AA mouse (the round puck) or a VSXXX-AB tablet (or compatible). \ >> I recently checked both installation guide and service guide, whilst looking at eBay offerings. > > I recently went through my DEC mice to test them (so I can create eBay offerings for the spares!) and all the -AA, -GA (and one other that escapes me right now) tested OK on a VS4000-60. At least one of those was originally used on my VAXstation 3100-M76. > > If it looks like "that" sort of connector and it is a VSXXX-xx then I do suspect that it will work in any VAXstation up to and including the VAXstation 4000-96. In fact I recently sold one (privately) for use on a VAXstation II. > > I think those mice will also work on the DECstation 2100/3100/5000 range , except for the Personal versions. You may need an adapter though. > > They (I think) even work in the early Alpha workstations (the DEC 3000 stuff); I don't think DEC switched to PS/2 mice until the AlphaStation name came out. That?s good news, I have one of the ?Hockey Pucks?, I think it came with my VAXstation II/RC. It sounds like I?ll be going spelunking, as it happens I know exactly where the mouse should be, unfortunately it?s in the hardest to reach section of the garage. Maybe I?ll get lucky and find the monitor cable while I?m at it. I can?t believe that I don?t seem to have an PS/2 mice handy, but I know a couple places where they?re likely to be. I?m also looking at bringing up one of my AlphaStations as a workstation. I think I still have a DECstation 5000, but am not too sure. I?d picked it up 20 some years ago, with the idea of running NetBSD on it. Zane From macro at orcam.me.uk Thu May 20 18:00:42 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 01:00:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> <507892977.26435.1621546018213@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 May 2021, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > IIRC I had burned the Ultrix CD "normally" (means without fiddling with block > size, so not 512), but changed the block size to 512 for booting it. IIRC #2, > burning was done on another drive, not the Plextor. CD-ROM medium format has been standardised and what I guess the 512-byte sector size jumper only does is logical translation of sector addressing to fulfil weird OS requirements. So that will not affect burning (unless you burn on a weird OS, which I guess does not support it anyway). ISTR upstreaming some fixes to Linux UFS support 20+ years ago to address this very problem (IIRC OSF/1 or Digital Unix CD-ROMs were also UFS, and I had a need to access them under Linux for some reason) and with them in place I thought the loop device hack was not needed anymore. Perhaps my memory tricks me or something has since regressed though, e.g. due to changes in the block layer, so I'll try to remember to see what's happened here when I get to my Ultrix CDs when I'm in my remote lab next time. It's not a feature that's used on a regular basis after all, so any regression can be long-lived. Maciej From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Thu May 20 18:21:01 2021 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:21:01 -0400 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c77c35-6542-0b2e-6f86-2451d5d8a9cd@personalprojects.net> On 2021-05-20 5:05 p.m., Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > What does one have to do (Linux, MacOS, *BSD) to write such an image > to the CD with 512-byte blocks, so it can be read by a DEC boot-ROM? There's nothing special needed to write the disk -- just burn it the way you would any other ISO image. It is the filesystem contained in that disk image that determines block size. From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Thu May 20 18:23:26 2021 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:23:26 -0400 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <26721a4d-1f87-4059-18b5-79d622e69479@personalprojects.net> On 2021-05-20 4:49 p.m., Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > Great, thanks for that. I would probably have never guessed that I > needed loop. I'm glad it worked. I still find it illogical to loop mount a device, but it works. I never would have figured it out on my own either. I don't remember who taught me that trick so I can't give credit where it is due. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 20 20:26:52 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 21:26:52 -0400 Subject: VT100 dot stretching in reverse video In-Reply-To: References: <01RZ96KRRQMC8Y527X@beyondthepale.ie> <7w4kexplqm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: I already let Lars know, but if anyone wants to see what I came up with: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp/VT102/ Bill On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 11:00 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > I can do this, please specify how you need it > (format/resolution/size), what you want to see on the screen. > Bill > > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:40 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > Would a photograph of a VT220 be any use? > > > > Thanks, but no. I already have one myself. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu May 20 21:01:51 2021 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 02:01:51 +0000 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent Message-ID: If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original Compaq to the net let me know! Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but still looking. Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu May 20 21:18:23 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 22:18:23 -0400 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0f1e5aa7-22ec-f0b6-92d4-a898dfe391b2@alembic.crystel.com> I believe 16 bit ethernet cards would work in 8 bit slots, the 3c503 and 509 did if I recall. Try that. But really you should go with ArcNet. C On 5/20/2021 10:01 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original Compaq to the net let me know! > Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but still looking. > Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu May 20 21:21:38 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 21:21:38 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> Randy. I have ISA ethernet and Arcnet boards. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 5/20/2021 9:01 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original Compaq to the net let me know! > Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but still looking. > Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 20 21:25:45 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:25:45 -0700 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:02 PM Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original > Compaq to the net let me know! > Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but still > looking. > Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. Intel 8/16 LAN Adapter is one common choice. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 20 21:27:51 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:27:51 -0700 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b6b72a0-0305-af0d-29d3-39d49c745700@sydex.com> On 5/20/21 7:01 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original Compaq to the net let me know! > Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but still looking. > Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. A fair number of 16-bit ISA ethernet cards will work in 8 bit mode. This has been discussed in the past on VCF. I use an Artisoft AE-2/T on one 8-bit system (it has a jumper for 8/16 bit operation) and a generic NE2000 ISA PNP on another. No problems. If you're looking for minimal-sized functionality for telnet and ftp, Mike Brutmann's MTCP works a treat with packet drivers on 8 bit. --Chuck From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu May 20 22:09:34 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 05:09:34 +0200 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210521030934.GA18921@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 02:01:51AM +0000, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this > original Compaq to the net let me know! > Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but > still looking. > Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. I assume there is Windows on the Compaq? If you only want "some" connection, not "fastest possible", then I would go with serial cable (I think the special one - so called "null modem" is required, but there are probably receipts for making one) via some kind of Unix laptop to connect with the rest of the world. I think your options are briefly described here: - TCP over RS-232 with Windows 3.1 and Internet Explorer 5 dialer https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/9018/tcp-over-rs-232-with-windows-3-1-and-internet-explorer-5-dialer PPP or SLIP protocols for serial line, then some net routing on laptop. Trumpet Winsock was the name of software that did such trick for me 25 years ago, when I configured and connected Windows95 on Pentium without net card to the Linux box, using PPP. It was not perfect but mostly worked. - MINUET for DOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Internet_Users_Essential_Tool You may have some basic clients in this package, provided they are still relevant in modern web environment (and if they are available to download). On the page above there are some links you may follow. Things could be better if you had something Unixy on old computer, but web browsing is not going to be fun, just passable experience. Other protocols - like, for sending mails - could have moved on too and it is hard to tell what current servers will tell if you try old clients with them... You will find out :-) . One of the thing you may want to be wary is, old terminal emulator (on Unixy OS) may not be prepared for some fancy attacks, when, say, something (a command or an email being viewed in your mail client on the terminal) produces certain charcter squence and makes your terminal do things... For example (this one is few days old): - rxvt-unicode: possible remote code execution https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1961794 -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu May 20 22:20:40 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 11:20:40 +0800 Subject: PDP-8/e M8652 KL8F Double-buffered asynch terminal control Message-ID: I am looking for the manual for the following Omnibus board: M8652 KL8F Double-buffered asynch terminal control Is there a scanned copy of the manual and/or schematic or any other information for this board somewhere? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter From lars at nocrew.org Fri May 21 00:15:54 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 05:15:54 +0000 Subject: VT100 dot stretching in reverse video In-Reply-To: (Bill Degnan's message of "Thu, 20 May 2021 21:26:52 -0400") References: <01RZ96KRRQMC8Y527X@beyondthepale.ie> <7w4kexplqm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wwnrsmzud.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Bill Degnan wrote: > I already let Lars know, but if anyone wants to see what I came up with: > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/temp/VT102/ Thank you very much! This is interesting because it shows VT100 dot stretching is done first, and other attributes on top of that. The VT220 does character widening first, and dot stretching after that. This means VT220 double width characters get more fine details than on the VT100. (The CIT-101 clone does widening first and dot stretching later like the VT220. BUT it disables dot stretching in reverse video, which is unlike the DEC terminals. Maybe this suggests reverse video is done before dot stretching.) From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri May 21 15:38:39 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 13:38:39 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000/90 Diagnostics Message-ID: <4055AE86-EC69-4026-8319-2ECBD6901624@avanthar.com> Is anyone familiar with the 4000/90 diagnostics? It looks like it will fail the test of the LCSPX graphics board, if it?s not plugged into a monitor, or is missing a loopback device. Is that correct? T 2 fails, but the manual makes it sound like I need a loopback T 100 succeeds when testing the LCSPX graphics board. The system had been a boat anchor until a short time ago, as the battery in the Dallas DS1287A RTC was dead. Amazon just delivered two DS12887?s. Once I replaced it, it came right up. I was surprised to see I had a 4GB and a 2GB drive in it. Now to dig out the mouse, and wait for the parts to hook it up to a monitor. :-) Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri May 21 15:41:12 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 13:41:12 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD Message-ID: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I?ve gotten used to a quiet office. :-) Zane From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 21 16:10:01 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 22:10:01 +0100 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <0aed01d74e85$aa0748e0$fe15daa0$@gmail.com> Zane, I have one in a VaxStation. To be honest I can't remember which Vaxstation. I think it was the 3100/30 because it will only boot from a 1Gb or less drive and the SCSI2SD allows a lot of different config options. Of course, there are lots of different Vaxstations with different SCSI hardware. There are many different SCSI2SD as well. So as usual, "Your Milage might vary" Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via > cctalk > Sent: 21 May 2021 21:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: SCSI2SD > > Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive > on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some > of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I?ve gotten used to a quiet > office. :-) > > Zane > > From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 21 16:26:13 2021 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 16:26:13 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 5/21/21 3:41 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I?ve gotten used to a quiet office. :-) I've used one on a VS4000/VLC. I didn't have any issues. -- Eric Dittman From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri May 21 17:12:33 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 23:12:33 +0100 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I know a lot of folk using SCSI2SD in VAXen with great success, and now there's a new kid on the block that was originally for the Sharp X68000 but is currently being heavily tested on 68K Macs and I see no reason why it shouldn't work on low-end VAXen too. I'll be ordering one soon to try. Home ? akuker/RASCSI Wiki ? GitHub -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On Fri, 21 May 2021 at 21:41, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive > on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some > of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I?ve gotten used to a quiet > office. :-) > > Zane > > > > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri May 21 19:15:48 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 19:15:48 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 5/21/2021 3:41 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I?ve gotten used to a quiet office. :-) > > Zane > > > I've got a SCSI2SD V5 in my MicroVAX 3100 M95. It sits on the SCSI bus along with the CDrom drive and a couple of 18GB Compaq/Seagate drives.? I've also got a SCSI2SD V6 in each of my two AlphaSever DS10 systems.? I had a few issues with the MV and an earlier version of the V5 firmware, but the last few versions have been no trouble at all. In the MV3100 I mounted the SCSI2SD on a 3.5" 3-D printed mount which is mounted on a 3.5" to 5.25" mount and it's mounted in the front opening next to the CDROM drive. In the DS10's the 3.5" 3-D printed mount is put in the floppy opening. -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566 From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat May 22 10:29:50 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 08:29:50 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On May 21, 2021, at 5:15 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/21/2021 3:41 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I?ve gotten used to a quiet office. :-) >> >> Zane >> >> >> > > I've got a SCSI2SD V5 in my MicroVAX 3100 M95. It sits on the SCSI bus along with the CDrom drive and a couple of 18GB Compaq/Seagate drives. I've also got a SCSI2SD V6 in each of my two AlphaSever DS10 systems. I had a few issues with the MV and an earlier version of the V5 firmware, but the last few versions have been no trouble at all. > > In the MV3100 I mounted the SCSI2SD on a 3.5" 3-D printed mount which is mounted on a 3.5" to 5.25" mount and it's mounted in the front opening next to the CDROM drive. > > In the DS10's the 3.5" 3-D printed mount is put in the floppy opening. This is definitely good info John, how is the SCSI2SD performance on the DS10?s? I?m pondering using either an AlphaStation 200 4/233 or a AlphaStation 500/333 as a workstation, rather than my DEC PWS 433a or my Compaq XP1000/667, simply due to power usage, and heat generation. I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I?ll need. Once they have V6 boards back in stock, I?ll need to order a couple of those as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power consumption. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 22 10:35:21 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 08:35:21 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> > I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I?ll need. Once > they have V6 boards back in stock, I?ll need to order a couple of those > as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power > consumption. I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they look like real HDD to the system but who knows? -Ali From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat May 22 10:48:53 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 08:48:53 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> Message-ID: On May 22, 2021, at 8:35 AM, Ali wrote: > >> I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I?ll need. Once >> they have V6 boards back in stock, I?ll need to order a couple of those >> as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power >> consumption. > > I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they look like real HDD to the system but who knows? > > -Ali That is a good question. Since I?m primarily getting these for OpenVMS, one of the reasons I went with 4 boards to start is that I figure I can use Volume Shadowing on one of the systems. I do wish that they offered UW-SCSI, and SCA SCSI options. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 22 11:12:58 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:12:58 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> Message-ID: <007e01d74f25$5560caf0$002260d0$@net> > I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID > configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they > look like real HDD to the system but who knows? Looking at the FAQ it looks like it does: "Does SCSI2SD do ECC or mirroring ? No. However, you can configure SCSI2SD as up to four devices and use whatever RAID, data duplication, striping, or mirroring capabilities your equipment supports." In fact it looks like you can subdivide one card into four virtual drives and do mirroring and RAID on one card. Kind of defeats the purpose but I guess it can be a cheap solution to avoid having to buy multiple boards. Now if they would make an UW version.... -Ali From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat May 22 11:19:35 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:19:35 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <007e01d74f25$5560caf0$002260d0$@net> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> <007e01d74f25$5560caf0$002260d0$@net> Message-ID: On May 22, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Ali wrote: > >> I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID >> configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they >> look like real HDD to the system but who knows? > > Looking at the FAQ it looks like it does: > > "Does SCSI2SD do ECC or mirroring ? > > No. However, you can configure SCSI2SD as up to four devices and use whatever RAID, data duplication, striping, or mirroring capabilities your equipment supports." > > In fact it looks like you can subdivide one card into four virtual drives and do mirroring and RAID on one card. Kind of defeats the purpose but I guess it can be a cheap solution to avoid having to buy multiple boards. > > Now if they would make an UW version.... > > -Ali In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD?s in the device. I?m not sure what benefit would be achieved by using a single board to present multiple devices. Unless of course you had a drive size limitation, or you?re trying to emulate something like 2GB or 4GB drives. As an example, that would be handy for VAXen with a 1GB Boot Drive limitation. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 22 11:24:37 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:24:37 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> <007e01d74f25$5560caf0$002260d0$@net> Message-ID: <008001d74f26$f622db30$e2689190$@net> > In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it > seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD?s > in the device. I?m not sure what benefit would be achieved by using a > single board to present multiple devices. Unless of course you had a > drive size limitation, or you?re trying to emulate something like 2GB > or 4GB drives. As an example, that would be handy for VAXen with a 1GB > Boot Drive limitation. Agreed. I think it would just be a cost saving measure. You need to replace 2 or more drives and don't want to buy multiple SCSI2SD boards. As for drive size limitation you can always get around that with partitioning and wasting the space on the rest of the card. -Ali From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 22 12:01:28 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 11:01:28 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/20/21 8:01 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original > Compaq to the net let me know! As others have said, I would expect that many 16-bit ISA Ethernet cards to work in 8-bit ISA slots. You might look for NE-1000 (compatible*) Ethernet cards. My understanding is that the NE-1000 vs NE-2000 was 8-bit vs 16-bit (respectively). I would expect most, if not all NE-1xxx / NE-2xxx models to work as the subsets within the 1k / 2k range were effectively still 1k or 2k cards. I think "compatible" is a weird things with Novell Ethernet labeled / citified cards as it's my understanding that Novell didn't actually sell the vast majority of NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards. Instead, they licensed / certified that other manufacturer cards adhered to their standard. Thus there were a LOT of non-Novell NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards. And that it's mostly by design. > Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but > still looking. You might consider one of the parallel port network cards. "Backpack" and "Rocket" terms come to mind. Though I could be completely conflating things. > Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. I'm curious to know what network stack you're going to run on that system. I don't know if it's an 8088, 80286, 80386 or what. Each obviously has different capabilities. Though I guess the 8-bit ISA slots indicate that it's probably 8088 or 80286. Though I think that Compaq may have used the 8086 too. Whatever it is, chances are good that memory will be small if not tight. Having just acquired an old LANtastic box with CDs & floppies off of eBay -- for giggles & edutainment -- I would wonder about using that. Novell NetWare (Light) is probably a choice. LAN Manager / other SMB (NetBIOS) networking from IBM / Microsoft comes to mind. I think it would be really neat to establish an old PC Network using coax (?) from IBM with whatever software stack they used. I'd bet SMB / NetBIOS based. ARCnet is probably a choice as well. I'd like to get a pair of working ARCnet (and PC Net) cards to dabble with some day. I'd enjoy reading more about what you are doing / ultimately end up doing Randy. #hazFun -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 22 12:03:04 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 11:03:04 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> Message-ID: <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Hi Rich, On 5/20/21 8:21 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > I have ISA ethernet and Arcnet boards. I'd be interested in knowing more about your ARCnet boards. Of course, that is if Randy doesn't end up using them. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 22 12:03:09 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 10:03:09 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> <007901d74f20$149a6710$3dcf3530$@net> <007e01d74f25$5560caf0$002260d0$@net> Message-ID: <572f403f-6983-4c43-995a-3a7040631b42@bitsavers.org> On 5/22/21 9:19 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD?s in the device. There should be SMART support so you can see what the state of the card is, assuming your SD will push that information out through SPI SD is not an SSD in that respect. People just live with the fact that an SD will just roll over and die without warning. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 22 12:16:35 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 11:16:35 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <20210521030934.GA18921@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210521030934.GA18921@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 5/20/21 9:09 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > I assume there is Windows on the Compaq? I think that it would need to be Windows for Workgroups; 3.1 / 3.11, to include networking support. Depending on the class of hardware that Randy's Compaq is, that may be a tall order for the system. > If you only want "some" connection, not "fastest possible", then I > would go with serial cable (I think the special one - so called "null > modem" is required, but there are probably receipts for making one) > via some kind of Unix laptop to connect with the rest of the world. The venerable options of LapLink and / or InterLnk (InterSvr) come to mind for transferring files. I've also seen a number of older DOS based networking things that are completely proprietary communications protocols. EtherDrive (?) comes to mind. -- I know that there are old threads on this list talking about them. I think I started some of them. > I think your options are briefly described here: > > - TCP over RS-232 with Windows 3.1 and Internet Explorer 5 dialer > > https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/9018/tcp-over-rs-232-with-windows-3-1-and-internet-explorer-5-dialer > > PPP or SLIP protocols for serial line, then some net routing on > laptop. Trumpet Winsock was the name of software that did such trick > for me 25 years ago, when I configured and connected Windows95 on > Pentium without net card to the Linux box, using PPP. It was not > perfect but mostly worked. TCP/IP is one of many network stacks that could be used. I personally somewhat question the value of TCP/IP on early computers, mostly because I'm ignorant of viable client applications. As in the web browsers that existed for the time can do very little today without a lot of help. Telnet / rlogin are mostly dead for security reasons. And I'm not aware of any SSH / HTTPS implementations that have been created for old OSs. Thus, file and printer sharing are the main things that networking older systems seems to offer to me. With that in mind, it seems to me like other network stacks might be easier to work with; IPX (NetWare), NetBIOS (IBM / Microsoft / Artisoft), DECnet (Digital), Vines (Banyan). > - MINUET for DOS > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Internet_Users_Essential_Tool > > You may have some basic clients in this package, provided they are > still relevant in modern web environment (and if they are available > to download). On the page above there are some links you may follow. > > Things could be better if you had something Unixy on old computer, but > web browsing is not going to be fun, just passable experience. Other > protocols - like, for sending mails - could have moved on too and it > is hard to tell what current servers will tell if you try old clients > with them... You will find out :-) . Ya. Hence why I think TCP/IP for contemporary Internet on old computers is so problematic. There are some SSL/TLS stripping proxies that can be used to allow clients that don't support contemporary web security standards via the intermediary gateway almost doing a protocol conversion between unencrypted and contemporary encryption. Then you get into old browsers not understanding contemporary HTML. Let's not even think about HTTP/2. Fortunately, SMTP hasn't changed much. Sure, there's now ESMTP, but many / most systems will fall back to stock SMTP with little difficulty. The biggest hurdle that I see is authentication and the likely need to do that over an encrypted channel. Fortunately it's trivial to stand up a private contemporary SMTP server that will allow retro clients to communicate in retro methods and then turn around and speak contemporary methods to contemporary servers. > One of the thing you may want to be wary is, old terminal emulator > (on Unixy OS) may not be prepared for some fancy attacks, when, say, > something (a command or an email being viewed in your mail client > on the terminal) produces certain charcter squence and makes your > terminal do things... Unicode and UTF-8 immediately come to mind. Though I would hope that a proper TERMCAP and well behaved client software would largely work around most of that. > For example (this one is few days old): > > - rxvt-unicode: possible remote code execution > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1961794 Yep. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 22 12:18:20 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 11:18:20 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: <20210521030934.GA18921@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <2b3fcd99-3ee3-56e8-86cf-add2ecd83730@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 5/22/21 11:16 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > The venerable options of LapLink and / or InterLnk (InterSvr) come to > mind for transferring files. I forgot to mention, both LapLink and InterLnk (InterSvr) supported a parallel port cable too. It was quite a bit faster than the serial null modem cable. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mark at matlockfamily.com Sat May 22 12:20:31 2021 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 12:20:31 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD Message-ID: > wrote: In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD?s in the device. I?m not sure what benefit would be achieved by using a single board to present multiple devices. Unless of course you had a drive size limitation, or you?re trying to emulate something like 2GB or 4GB drives. As an example, that would be handy for VAXen with a 1GB Boot Drive limitation. -Zane Zane, I am using SCSI2SD cards in a VAXstation 4000/90a, and in a MV3100-80 as well as an Alpha DS10. In the two VAXes, I use two SCSI2SD cards, configured identically with a system drive and a user drive on class 10 16GB microSD cards. So each microSD card has both the system drive and the user drive. Thus I can use VMS backup from one microSD card to another so that if one microSD card fails I can easily recover from it. So far I have not had hardware failures, but being able to recover from a bad software installation which has been VERY helpful. Mark From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat May 22 12:55:05 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 12:55:05 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/2021 10:29 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > On May 21, 2021, at 5:15 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 5/21/2021 3:41 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I?ve gotten used to a quiet office. :-) >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >>> >> >> I've got a SCSI2SD V5 in my MicroVAX 3100 M95. It sits on the SCSI bus along with the CDrom drive and a couple of 18GB Compaq/Seagate drives. I've also got a SCSI2SD V6 in each of my two AlphaSever DS10 systems. I had a few issues with the MV and an earlier version of the V5 firmware, but the last few versions have been no trouble at all. >> >> In the MV3100 I mounted the SCSI2SD on a 3.5" 3-D printed mount which is mounted on a 3.5" to 5.25" mount and it's mounted in the front opening next to the CDROM drive. >> >> In the DS10's the 3.5" 3-D printed mount is put in the floppy opening. > > This is definitely good info John, how is the SCSI2SD performance on the DS10?s? I?m pondering using either an AlphaStation 200 4/233 or a AlphaStation 500/333 as a workstation, rather than my DEC PWS 433a or my Compaq XP1000/667, simply due to power usage, and heat generation. > > I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I?ll need. Once they have V6 boards back in stock, I?ll need to order a couple of those as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power consumption. > > Zane > > Zane, They perform adequately. They are no speed demons for sure since they're basically a SCSI-2 (there is a SCSI-2 Mode enable option) disk. They go about as fast as most drives with a 50-pin interface do. It's been a while since I configured them but I'm sure I have them set to the fastest speed. The SCSI2SD utility for V6 has a dropdown box with speed choices and mine are either set to "Synch, 10MB/s" or to "No Limit (safe)". Truthfully though I haven't used them in a while in the DS10's since I did an experiment with a P410 SmartArray card with two 256GB Samsung SSD's and it worked (and is still working). The only downside to that is they have to be configured somewhere else since the Alpha MSA utility doesn't understand them. But once configured (both cards and SSD) then they work great. The other downside is no boot support so I need to either boot from a normal SCSI drive or the SCSI2SD. I've thought about the latter, but haven't tried it yet. Though I have booted from the SCSI2SD before. I'm pretty sure at some point I experimented with using HBVS between two SCSI2SD drives (partitions on the same SD since I only have one card in each system) and it worked. But I can't find any notes so it might be something I intended to do but didn't. Regards, John H. Reinhardt From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat May 22 14:11:45 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 15:11:45 -0400 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7039048c-e8c2-9734-dc78-df8bf814f5d8@alembic.crystel.com> > I think "compatible" is a weird things with Novell Ethernet labeled / > citified cards as it's my understanding that Novell didn't actually sell > the vast majority of NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards.? Instead, they licensed / > certified that other manufacturer cards adhered to their standard.? Thus > there were a LOT of non-Novell NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards.? And that it's > mostly by design. Correct. Novell got out of the hardware market after the NP600 Ethernet cards and those impressive ISA disk controller cards. Both were pretty impressive, if I recall the NP600 had the entire IPX/SPX protocol on it to offload work from the CPU and the disk card could do mirroring right on the controller. But newer CPUs just pointed to the whole "the CPU is quicker anyway" so Novell got out of that business and licensed boards like the NE2000 for a pittance. That, the Intel Etherexpress, and the 3c509 pretty much did it for Ethernet till PCI. > I'm curious to know what network stack you're going to run on that > system.? I don't know if it's an 8088, 80286, 80386 or what.? Each > obviously has different capabilities.? Though I guess the 8-bit ISA > slots indicate that it's probably 8088 or 80286.? Though I think that > Compaq may have used the 8086 too.? Whatever it is, chances are good > that memory will be small if not tight. Pretty much all 80206's had 16 bit busses, the only ones I saw with 8 bit were XT's upgraded with the Mountain/286 or that oddball Microsoft card. The Mountain was the weirdest, 8 bit card, 80286 with a couple of K of cache memory, and a plug to go into the 8086 CPU socket. That was it, no memory, no disk, no kidding. CZ Novel ECNE (I so don't get to drag that out much anymore. Drat) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 22 14:28:39 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 13:28:39 -0600 Subject: ECND -was- COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <7039048c-e8c2-9734-dc78-df8bf814f5d8@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7039048c-e8c2-9734-dc78-df8bf814f5d8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <946a0e5a-62d6-8263-9fa7-a94894f5d071@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> I tend to agree with everything you said. Though, minor nitpick, I think you meant 80286 when you typed 80206. ;-) On 5/22/21 1:11 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Novel ECNE (I so don't get to drag that out much anymore. Drat) What is an ECNE? I know what a CNE and CNA are. But I've not heard of ECNE before. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat May 22 14:32:28 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 15:32:28 -0400 Subject: ECND -was- COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <946a0e5a-62d6-8263-9fa7-a94894f5d071@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <7039048c-e8c2-9734-dc78-df8bf814f5d8@alembic.crystel.com> <946a0e5a-62d6-8263-9fa7-a94894f5d071@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <614d1393-3f0a-081c-f764-f8cc44178c7d@alembic.crystel.com> > I tend to agree with everything you said.? Though, minor nitpick, I > think you meant 80286 when you typed 80206.? ;-) True, 0 looks like 8 with cheap glasses :-) > What is an ECNE? ECNE was Enterprise CNE. You had to pass the CNE, then additional tests on SNA networking, 3+ Open, some of the various gateways (Telephone), routers, and TCP/IP. There weren't a lot of us, so they came out with the Master/CNE which I also got with Infrastructure/Advanced access domains. Still have the pins and the framed certs, those got me the job at the IEEE Computer Society despite being kicked out of college in the 80's. :-) C From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 22 14:34:05 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:05 -0600 Subject: IBM PC Network Message-ID: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that they would be willing to part with? The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM PC Network (and ARCnet) again. Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 22 14:43:41 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 12:43:41 -0700 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 5/22/21 12:34 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > I have the tech ref on bitsavers. This was sytek cable modem tech. In small networks you had a little frequency translator box locally From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat May 22 15:34:13 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:13 -0700 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> Hi Grant, On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:05 -0600 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that > they would be willing to part with? My company installed a several hundred IBM PC Network equipped workstations "back in the day" ;) It was a very stable network and had the advantage that one could use existing 75 ohm cable that could be simultaneously used for video (although, most of our installations were network only). IBM's NETBIOS was integrated into the IBM PC Network board. I wrote a network utility program to analyze NETBIOS networks (which was advertised in "Byte Magazine"). My largest software clients were TRW and the U.S. Navy. I tried to get the U.S. Navy as a client (unsuccessfully) - as they had bought my utility software and complained to me that it didn't support their 10,000+ workstations! Unfortunately, I long ago got rid of all my IBM PC Network cards and related hardware. (I still have some IBM Token Ring stuff, though). We also had several clients who "picked" Arcnet. We never recommended it - but IT folks had their own opinions - and we were a network/system-integration firm and would do whatever the the client asked for. (We later got to convert all of our Arcnet clients to IBM Token Ring or Ethernet. Kinda like "double dipping" ;) By the late 1980's I had converted all of our clients to Token Ring (especially those with IBM Mainframes) or Ethernet. All the PC Network hardware was ultimately scrapped... Cheers, Lyle -- > The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM > PC Network (and ARCnet) again. > > Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise > / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like > to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not > aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat May 22 16:43:44 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 17:43:44 -0400 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> Message-ID: You mean a Tokenray network? On Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:34 PM Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > Hi Grant, > > On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:05 -0600 > Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that > > they would be willing to part with? > > My company installed a several hundred IBM PC Network equipped workstations > "back in the day" ;) > > It was a very stable network and had the advantage that one could use > existing > 75 ohm cable that could be simultaneously used for video (although, most of > our installations were network only). > > IBM's NETBIOS was integrated into the IBM PC Network board. I wrote a > network utility program to analyze NETBIOS networks (which was advertised > in > "Byte Magazine"). My largest software clients were TRW and the U.S. Navy. I > tried to get the U.S. Navy as a client (unsuccessfully) - as they had > bought > my utility software and complained to me that it didn't support their > 10,000+ > workstations! > > Unfortunately, I long ago got rid of all my IBM PC Network cards and > related > hardware. (I still have some IBM Token Ring stuff, though). > > We also had several clients who "picked" Arcnet. We never recommended it - > but > IT folks had their own opinions - and we were a network/system-integration > firm > and would do whatever the the client asked for. (We later got to convert > all > of our Arcnet clients to IBM Token Ring or Ethernet. Kinda like "double > dipping" ;) > > By the late 1980's I had converted all of our clients to Token Ring > (especially those with IBM Mainframes) or Ethernet. > > All the PC Network hardware was ultimately scrapped... > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > > > The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM > > PC Network (and ARCnet) again. > > > > Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise > > / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like > > to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not > > aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > > > > > > > > -- > 73 NM6Y > Bickley Consulting West > https://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 22 18:45:43 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 16:45:43 -0700 Subject: Link Rot Message-ID: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of articles but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etc....https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat May 22 19:50:14 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 17:50:14 -0700 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> Message-ID: <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> Bill, On Sat, 22 May 2021 17:43:44 -0400 Bill Degnan wrote: > You mean a Tokenray network? Wow, never heard of "Tokenray" ;) BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance than 10 Mbit Ethernet. We won a number of large contracts when other network companies used twisted pair 10 Mbit Ethernet in "noisy" environments and their networks failed miserably. When Ethernet finally went to 100 Mbit, it also had better noise margins and nearly everyone moved to that (except folks with mainframe computers). Ultimately, IBM supported Ethernet on mainframes, so that "ended" Token Ring networks (plus IBM never upgraded Token Ring past 16 Mbit). Regularly upgrading networks was one of the things that made the networking/systems-integration business so terrific. Oh yes, that and we used to charge about $250-$350 a node for network cards with a 40% margin. Ah, those were the days ;) Cheers, Lyle -- > On Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:34 PM Lyle Bickley via cctalk > wrote: > > > Hi Grant, > > > > On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:05 -0600 > > Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that > > > they would be willing to part with? > > > > My company installed a several hundred IBM PC Network equipped workstations > > "back in the day" ;) > > > > It was a very stable network and had the advantage that one could use > > existing > > 75 ohm cable that could be simultaneously used for video (although, most of > > our installations were network only). > > > > IBM's NETBIOS was integrated into the IBM PC Network board. I wrote a > > network utility program to analyze NETBIOS networks (which was advertised > > in > > "Byte Magazine"). My largest software clients were TRW and the U.S. Navy. I > > tried to get the U.S. Navy as a client (unsuccessfully) - as they had > > bought > > my utility software and complained to me that it didn't support their > > 10,000+ > > workstations! > > > > Unfortunately, I long ago got rid of all my IBM PC Network cards and > > related > > hardware. (I still have some IBM Token Ring stuff, though). > > > > We also had several clients who "picked" Arcnet. We never recommended it - > > but > > IT folks had their own opinions - and we were a network/system-integration > > firm > > and would do whatever the the client asked for. (We later got to convert > > all > > of our Arcnet clients to IBM Token Ring or Ethernet. Kinda like "double > > dipping" ;) > > > > By the late 1980's I had converted all of our clients to Token Ring > > (especially those with IBM Mainframes) or Ethernet. > > > > All the PC Network hardware was ultimately scrapped... > > > > Cheers, > > Lyle > > -- > > > > > The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM > > > PC Network (and ARCnet) again. > > > > > > Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise > > > / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like > > > to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not > > > aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. > > > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > 73 NM6Y > > Bickley Consulting West > > https://bickleywest.com > > > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From brain at jbrain.com Sat May 22 20:12:10 2021 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 20:12:10 -0500 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> Message-ID: <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> On 5/22/2021 7:50 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" > environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance than 10 > Mbit Ethernet. We won a number of large contracts when other network companies > used twisted pair 10 Mbit Ethernet in "noisy" environments and their networks > failed miserably. I guess that's a selling point of TR, but I loathed it when introduced to it after using Ethernet at UIUC.? Having to learn CPI-C, LU-2, LU-6.2, APPC, etc. and configure Communications Manager/2 on OS/2 to emulate a FEP (3174?, not sure, my mind tended to bury such information, and in fact I'm not sure if that's what it did or if it connected to a FEP, that info is gone and I've no desire to go review it). When the network worked, it was fine, of course, but it seemed every week someone would do something that would switch a TR card in a PC to 4Mb, and the entire network would die, "beaconing" for an hour while the IT folks ran around trying to figure out where the issue lie.? And, it was an office building, so not a ton of noise... Seeing the 370 (3090, as I recall, nice imposing looking machine) was impressive, and I will admit working in a firm with an IBM 370 architecture machine gave me a new and profound appreciation for the staying power of the mainframe (I started the job thinking, as all recently minted IT professionals no doubt think, that the mainframe was soon to be discarded in favor of UNIX and potentially the newly arrived Linux OS. That job changed my mind). But, I never grew fond of TR, and as soon as IBM supported Ethernet, I was happy. (Plus, there was no TR driver in Linux initially, and we all desperately wanted to run Linux on our PCs to run a real OS instead of Win3.1 or OS/2. OS/2 was nice, to be fair, but it was not UNIX...) Jim From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat May 22 21:41:19 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 21:41:19 -0500 Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: link rot is weird in what disapears vs still works On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 6:45 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the > article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% > Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of articles > but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etc.... > https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 22 22:28:07 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 20:28:07 -0700 Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> On 5/22/21 7:41 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > link rot is weird in what disapears vs still works > > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 6:45 PM Ali via cctalk > wrote: > >> Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the >> article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% >> Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of articles >> but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etc.... >> https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking I've said it before--putting information on the web is like writing in sand. Thank heavens for the Wayback machine (which is why I support Brewster's efforts). However, it's far from perfect--in particular ftp content has apparently never been archived and many vendor's support pages have had robots.txt files preventing them from being archived. Still, it's better than nothing and I appreciate it. Were it more complete, I might not have to spend so much time reverse-engineering software. Try searching for some of the older, say, HP support pages. I'm pretty sure that some "executive' made the decision to pull all of the support material for old systems, as that doesn't contribute to the bottom line. The New HP Way. A nasty trend is adware sites are simply quoting text from a large number of now defunct pages; go to the link and you get the "CONGRATULATIONS! YOU ARE THE ONE BILLIONTH VISITOR!" page. Run, do not walk away. A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of text. --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 22 22:39:37 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 20:39:37 -0700 Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00b201d74f85$422f9be0$c68ed3a0$@net> > However, it's far from perfect--in particular ftp content has > apparently Yes, who would have ever thought FTPs would be dropping like flies though? Web sites? Sure. But FTP - how else were you going to distribute all those drivers, patches, etc... Short answer just don't bother doing it.... > Try searching for some of the older, say, HP support pages. I'm pretty > sure that some "executive' made the decision to pull all of the support > material for old systems, as that doesn't contribute to the bottom > line. > > The New HP Way. No, the new HP way is to make it very hard to find information (if it exists) then move it behind a pay wall and finally get rid of it... I've run into this a few times with firmware that used to be freely available from Compaq FTP now being behind a "support contract needed" pay wall... The one company that gets kudos for maintaining their support site is Adaptec - after multiple mergers and buyouts you can still get drivers and manuals for products as old as the 1540... Too bad there is no easy way to archive their site... > A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish > Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of > text. You can't monetize a page of text as easily as you can a video view on YouTube.... Luckily so far I have never ever had to watch one of these videos for info that can be gleaned from text. Other videos, such as techniques on soldering, are a different story as those skills cannot be taught simply by reading about them.... I continue to have my own personal archive of pages and YouTube videos for things I find useful. Because you never know... From cruff at ruffspot.net Sat May 22 14:46:40 2021 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 13:46:40 -0600 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ED08B88-4824-4D1C-A1F6-A20C233D85AA@ruffspot.net> I've also used a version 5.1 SCSI2SD on a VAXstation 4000/60 without problem. From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat May 22 23:53:50 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 23:53:50 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> Grant and et al, I have several hundred MB and expansion cards from 30 years ago up to about 5 years ago. I would like to sell all of my computer equipment. Boards, cards, cables, covers, printers, monitors, computers. The whole works. I probably have cancer and if I do I am dead. i have been selling off everything that I own and I have been using the funds to drive all around the country full filling my bucket list. Please help me by taking everything off my hands? I still have two Simpson 260 VOMs that I want to see go to a good home instead of hitting the trash. Grant, Randy has not responded to me. Yes, I have Arcnet and Ethernet ISA cards. What info do you need? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 5/22/2021 12:03 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Hi Rich, > > On 5/20/21 8:21 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> I have ISA ethernet and Arcnet boards. > > I'd be interested in knowing more about your ARCnet boards. Of > course, that is if Randy doesn't end up using them. > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 23 00:00:31 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 23:00:31 -0600 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> Message-ID: On 5/22/21 6:50 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > Wow, never heard of "Tokenray" ;) Nor have I. > BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" > environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance > than 10 Mbit Ethernet. I've heard tell that Token Ring worked MUCH better on extremely busy networks. Purportedly Ethernet starts having problems when there are more and more systems and / or a higher and higher percentage of utilization is happening. I seem to remember that Ethernet had problems starting about 80% utilization while Token Ring could easily handle 95% utilization or higher. > plus IBM never upgraded Token Ring past 16 Mbit. Sure they did. You can find commercial Token Ring cards that support, 4 Mbps, 16 Mbps, /and/ *100* Mbps. I see them on eBay monthly. I heard that IBM developed 1,000 Mbps / 1 Gbps Token Ring in the lab. But that no commercial products were ever made. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From justgold79 at gmail.com Sun May 23 00:08:04 2021 From: justgold79 at gmail.com (Justin Goldberg) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 01:08:04 -0400 Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've always thought that robots.txt would the be interesting stuff that should be archived, perhaps it could be behind a paywall. There's no law against archiving it other then subnets being blocked, which is easily bypassed as matt cutts wrote a blog post on silently spidering content. Also you can use the cloud proxies which call themselves sdwan. Yacy and other p2p web crawlers are another way to go. On Sat, May 22, 2021, 11:28 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/21 7:41 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > link rot is weird in what disapears vs still works > > > > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 6:45 PM Ali via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the > >> article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% > >> Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of > articles > >> but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etc.... > >> > https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking > > I've said it before--putting information on the web is like writing in > sand. Thank heavens for the Wayback machine (which is why I support > Brewster's efforts). > > However, it's far from perfect--in particular ftp content has apparently > never been archived and many vendor's support pages have had robots.txt > files preventing them from being archived. > Still, it's better than nothing and I appreciate it. Were it more > complete, I might not have to spend so much time reverse-engineering > software. > > Try searching for some of the older, say, HP support pages. I'm pretty > sure that some "executive' made the decision to pull all of the support > material for old systems, as that doesn't contribute to the bottom line. > > The New HP Way. > > A nasty trend is adware sites are simply quoting text from a large > number of now defunct pages; go to the link and you get the > "CONGRATULATIONS! YOU ARE THE ONE BILLIONTH VISITOR!" page. Run, do not > walk away. > > A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish > Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of text. > > --Chuck > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 23 00:31:28 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 23:31:28 -0600 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4e87c91f-63ff-613d-c56f-678b84caebcd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 5/22/21 7:12 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I guess that's a selling point of TR, but I loathed it when introduced > to it after using Ethernet at UIUC.? Having to learn CPI-C, LU-2, > LU-6.2, APPC, etc. and configure Communications Manager/2 on OS/2 to > emulate a FEP (3174?, not sure, my mind tended to bury such information, > and in fact I'm not sure if that's what it did or if it connected to a > FEP, that info is gone and I've no desire to go review it). Given the things that I play with, I'd like to know more. But I suspect that this isn't the forum. > When the network worked, it was fine, of course, but it seemed every > week someone would do something that would switch a TR card in a PC to > 4Mb, and the entire network would die, "beaconing" for an hour while the > IT folks ran around trying to figure out where the issue lie.? And, it > was an office building, so not a ton of noise... My first post high school computer job was help desk support for my local city government. There were 500 or more computers and many of them were on Token Ring. -- The migration to Ethernet was under way. -- The way that the network team dealt with beaconing was 1) multiple independent rings, and 2) disconnecting wings / floors of buildings to quickly isolate things. It's entirely different to have a total network failure vs a floor / wing that can't use the network. > Seeing the 370 (3090, as I recall, nice imposing looking machine) was > impressive, and I will admit working in a firm with an IBM 370 > architecture machine gave me a new and profound appreciation for the > staying power of the mainframe (I started the job thinking, as all > recently minted IT professionals no doubt think, that the mainframe was > soon to be discarded in favor of UNIX and potentially the newly arrived > Linux OS. That job changed my mind). *nod* I've got more of an affinity for mainframes than many friends. One of the things I play with -- which I was eluding to above -- is an IBM P/390-E. So I've spent some time with CM/2, MPTS, and the likes. I've currently got my P/390-E working via TCP/IP over 802.2 LLC/SNAP via a virtual OS/2 Warp 4 system routing to TCP/IP over Ethernet II. -- Your first statement really did trigger a lot of things in the realm that I play in. > But, I never grew fond of TR, and as soon as IBM supported Ethernet, I > was happy. (Plus, there was no TR driver in Linux initially, and we all > desperately wanted to run Linux on our PCs to run a real OS instead of > Win3.1 or OS/2. OS/2 was nice, to be fair, but it was not UNIX...) ~chuckle~ I started my Linux networking on 10Base2 and PPP back in the 2.0 days. I don't know when Token Ring was added to the Linux kernel. It was removed in the early 5.4, I think. -- Sadly, I don't think that Linux can be the multi-network router that I want. I suspect that honor is going to go to NetWare 4.x or maybe 5.x. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 23 01:46:54 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 00:46:54 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> Message-ID: <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 5/22/21 10:53 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > I have several hundred MB and expansion cards from 30 years ago up to > about 5 years ago. I would like to sell all of my computer equipment. > Boards, cards, cables, covers, printers, monitors, computers. The > whole works. Interesting and intriguing. > I probably have cancer and if I do I am dead. I'm sorry to hear that. > i have been selling off everything that I own and I have been using > the funds to drive all around the country full filling my bucket > list. :-) > Please help me by taking everything off my hands? I doubt that I personally can take everything. But I'm interested to learn more. (See below.) > I still have two Simpson 260 VOMs that I want to see go to a good > home instead of hitting the trash. Shiny! Sadly, I doubt that I'm a good home. They would be a show piece for me, at most. > Grant, Randy has not responded to me. Yes, I have Arcnet and Ethernet > ISA cards. What info do you need? I'd be very interested in a summary of what (ARCNET / Ethernet / other network cards / equipment) you have. A simple list of "X count of part Y from brand Z". Typical count / make / model type thing. What you'd like for them. Roughly where you are at so that I could guesstimate rough shipping charges. I'm also interested in old software. LANtastic and Lotus software has been on my short list recently. Novell NetWare has made quite a showing in my house. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From brain at jbrain.com Sun May 23 02:02:30 2021 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 02:02:30 -0500 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <4e87c91f-63ff-613d-c56f-678b84caebcd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> <4e87c91f-63ff-613d-c56f-678b84caebcd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <373f4f36-a71c-da3a-0657-edcb87a2655a@jbrain.com> On 5/23/2021 12:31 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/21 7:12 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> I guess that's a selling point of TR, but I loathed it when >> introduced to it after using Ethernet at UIUC.? Having to learn >> CPI-C, LU-2, LU-6.2, APPC, etc. and configure Communications >> Manager/2 on OS/2 to emulate a FEP (3174?, not sure, my mind tended >> to bury such information, and in fact I'm not sure if that's what it >> did or if it connected to a FEP, that info is gone and I've no desire >> to go review it). > > Given the things that I play with, I'd like to know more.? But I > suspect that this isn't the forum. Oh, I don't know, I mean, CM ES and CM/2 were just OS/2 emulators of a FEP, I believe (they were emulating something, I know that much), and we talk about other emulators on here all the time. It was 1993, I was fresh out of college with a Computer Engineering (kinda like a EE degree, but with small signal instead of power design in the last semesters) degree from UIUC and the job market seemed in the dumps.? Hardware jobs (I interviewed at Motorola to work on the uC group, but no dice) were scarce, and software development openings (CompE had some CS classes in it) were bad as well, but a bit better.? Took a job with Compuware (still in business, I believe... Yep, now part of BMC), one of the IBM barnacle companies, to coin a term (they wrote some industry standard apps like FileAid and AbendAid and XPediter, if my memory doesn't fail me) for IBM shops.? IBM-like dress code (dress slacks, shoes, college shirt, tie), but it paid well.? I was hired in their communications group, working on a multi-platform piece of code called "GCS" (Generalized Communications System).? The overall idea was to create OS/2 counterparts for the company's mainframe flagship products, some of which could also function as front ends for the mainframe versions.? File-Aid, for example, was a file transfer/file manipulation app on the mainframe, and FileAid/2 did the same on OS/2, but also allowed transfers to/from the mainframe.? The transfer functionality required a way to do transfers, as one can expect, and the goal was to support as many customer configurations as possible.? GCS was born.? GCS was a set of libraries that provided some low level transfer routines that could be compiled into mainframe and OS/2 apps (RS6000 as well, and later Windows 3.1 and Windows NT).? The transfer was protocol agnostic, but there was a directory server functionality that would configure which protocols could be used between two endpoints.? Sometimes it was CPI/C, which I think was a half duplex true communications protocol, while others were APPC/LU6.2, as I recall (I didn't do much with the actual protocols, as I was junior on the team), which could be full duplex.? The bare minimum was LU2, which I believe is 3270 protocol.? It's probably old news to anyone on here, but LU2/3270 was a horrible way to transfer files.? Essentially, you would connect to the 370, it would pass control to the endpoint, you would send a screen of data back, it would send data back to you, repeat.? To do a file transfer using LU2, you would use the OS/2 communications low level libraries to create a virtual 3270 screen and connect to the mainframe (using connections strings retrieved from this directory server thing our team had written) and send some EBCDIC chars in the first field, the 370 would then respond to those, etc.? If a file needed to be transferred from mainframe to PC, the PC sent the required set of "commands", and the mainframe split the file into 80x24 chunks of data and sent it down, the client re-assembling and passing off the resulting blob.? Smarter people in the group than I realized the 370 terminal environment would support 3270 terminals that were up to 16384 or so bytes in size, whatever that translated to in rows and columns.? So, all 3270 virtual sessions were created with those dimensions, to save the number of splits and chatter. I configured CM/ES and CM/2 to hook the GCS endpoints to the mainframe and populated the paths in the Directory Server to denote which protocols were used for which paths. I realize now that outside of groups like this, no one understands half duplex transmissions.? GCS simulated full duplex conversations over half duplex pipes, which required an insane amount of work, but we created tons of little threads in OS/2 to manage all of the housekeeping. The idea was that the developer and end user need not care if LU6.2 (full duplex) or LU2 or CPIC (half duplex) was in use.? I'm laughing now thinking of all of the web and even TCP/IP devs who take full duplex for granted and don't even know about half duplex. Anyway, the system seemed (in retrospect) as brittle as it sounds.? I went on a number of beta installs to IBM shops to install and configure, and it was a chore each time.? Navigating not only the TR segments, various RACF security issues, etc., made almost every beta install close to doomed.? The system was heavy, as you needed a directory server installed, the apps themselves, and CM/2 if it was not already in place.? Good times...! I, of course, came from UNIX and TCP/IP land, and 802.2 and all these crazy protocols were just bizarre to me.? I had bought the Comer books right after college because I was trying to implement TCP/IP on my Commodore 64 (got SLIP, TCP, and IP working, back in 1995 or so), and there was a guy at the company named Walter Falby who was a uber 370 programmer.? At one point, he was leading the Compuware group writing a program that would trick the 370 into feeding different dates to regular apps on the machine, to be sold as a utility to help companies test their SW for the year 2000 rollover.? Deep knowledge of 370 assembler.? Reminds me of "Mel" of the free verse story fame.? Anyway, Falby started asking me about TCP/IP, and I was happy to share what I knew.? He borrowed my Comer books and printouts of the RFCs (not sure where I printed them from back in those days, but they were available somewhere) and implemented a full TCP/IP stack for the 370, they called it Host Communications Interface (HCI).? I'm not sure if Compuware gave HCI away to customers or they just charged a bit for it, but I remember Walter being stupified IBM was selling TCP/IP for such a high price and deigned to do something about it. As TCP/IP came into focus on OS/390 and OS/2, GCS added TCP/IP as one of the protocol options.? By that time, I knew my way around GCS and the issues.? I've forgotten the specifics, but I do remember the original OS/2 GCS code was written by a guy named Paul who was still the primary dev, but had relocated back to California. He had implemented a "waitforsignal" construct incorrectly, and the code spun in a tight loop until data arrived.? I don't know why, but the code was not easy to fix to use the correct construct.? OS/2 handled it OK, but it was still a resource hog.? My claim to fame (as it were) in this group was realizing that one could dispense with the huge library overhead (2 threads per connection, etc.) for full duplex protocols like TCP/IP, and I hacked together something called GCS Quick, which only worked with LU6.2 and TCP/IP, but ran much faster than our heavy GCS and was much more portable to Windows 3.1 and UNIX (RS6000).? Obviously brighter minds than I took the idea and created GCSLite, which slimmed down the overhead and optionally pulled it in when needed for LU2 and other half duplex needs. Towards the end of my time there, we were doing Windows 3.1 ports with 3270 emulators.? Seems like Chameleon was a product name, but not sure. Extra! I think was one.? Anyway, we modified GCS Lite to work with those apps, and continued to support OS/2 and the mainframe, and supported the RS6000 as well. I remember Compuware ran everything under VM, which makes sense since there were so many different development teams needing a 370 environment for their work.? I also remember all of the mainframe devs striving to write their code so it ran "above the line".? I seem to recall there was a 16MB "line" (24 bit addresses?) and older code would only run in the first 16MB. And C trigraphs! The bulk of GCS was portable C code and was used on both OS/2 and the mainframe, but evidently the "{" and "}" don't exist on the 3270, so every time we made changes to the portable code, we'd run a File-Aid job on the source tree to convert all the regular C characters to tri-graphs and then upload the resulting munged files for compilation.? Writing this down reminds me this was all unreal.? Rube Goldberg would be proud. The WWW was heating up by 1996 (though archive.org was not around, I actually had one of the first 10,000 web sites back in the day, though I don't think there's any record of it), so I took a new position doing web development.? The new firm had a mainframe as well, but I was mostly hidden from it, and didn't get close to it again until the mid-2000s when I wrote a java utility that took XML DTDS/XSDs and spit out COBOL code and copybooks that represented the XML, so the mainframe folks could consume XML messages.? By that time, Ethernet had taken over, and I never saw TR again. > > My first post high school computer job was help desk support for my > local city government.? There were 500 or more computers and many of > them were on Token Ring.? --? The migration to Ethernet was under way. > --? The way that the network team dealt with beaconing was 1) multiple > independent rings, and 2) disconnecting wings / floors of buildings to > quickly isolate things.? It's entirely different to have a total > network failure vs a floor / wing that can't use the network. They did segment things, as I recall, but it always seemed to take a long time to find and fix. > > > ~chuckle~? I started my Linux networking on 10Base2 and PPP back in > the 2.0 days.? I don't know when Token Ring was added to the Linux > kernel. It was removed in the early 5.4, I think.? -- Sadly, I don't > think that Linux can be the multi-network router that I want.? I > suspect that honor is going to go to NetWare 4.x or maybe 5.x. I remember shuffling SLS disks into the PS/2 (when PS/2 was a model line of IBM machines, not just an old keyboard connector footprint :-) At Aegon/Transamerica in the mid 2000s, I championed the use of the zOS environment to serve up our Java web applications, using some UNIX subsystem for zOS (ah, found it.? Unix System Services-USS, not zLinux).? But, so much Java code depended on ASCII being the codebase, and zOS was just not suited for such types of loads.? We had to abandon the attempts after a year or so, we even had IBM helping us, to no avail.? I suspect zLinux does better, but zOS really prefers batch workloads or CICS stateless type workloads.? Web workloads were just hard for it (at the time, I suspect they've solved the problems now) Working at 4 or so firms that used zOS gave me a nice appreciation for the fact that the world still runs on mainframes. But, if I'm honest, I'm kinda glad I no longer have to worry about EBCDIC, CICS, IMS, finding a 3270 emu, RACF, or hearing people call storage DASD. Dealing with such disparate platforms complicated every systems integration project or architecture discussion I had at those firms.? The last two firms I've been at no longer have big iron (last company converted their zOS app to MicroFocus COBOL on rs6000 and then retired the app, and current firm doesn't have any, that I know of). Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Sun May 23 02:05:49 2021 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 02:05:49 -0500 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <373f4f36-a71c-da3a-0657-edcb87a2655a@jbrain.com> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> <4e87c91f-63ff-613d-c56f-678b84caebcd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <373f4f36-a71c-da3a-0657-edcb87a2655a@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 5/23/2021 2:02 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > > I, of course, came from UNIX and TCP/IP land, and 802.2 and all these > crazy protocols were just bizarre to me.? I had bought the Comer books > right after college because I was trying to implement TCP/IP on my > Commodore 64 (got SLIP, TCP, and IP working, back in 1995 or so), and > there was a guy at the company named Walter Falby who was a uber 370 > programmer.? At one point, he was leading the Compuware group writing > a program that would trick the 370 into feeding different dates to > regular apps on the machine, to be sold as a utility to help companies > test their SW for the year 2000 rollover.? Deep knowledge of 370 > assembler.? Reminds me of "Mel" of the free verse story fame.? Anyway, > Falby started asking me about TCP/IP, and I was happy to share what I > knew.? He borrowed my Comer books and printouts of the RFCs (not sure > where I printed them from back in those days, but they were available > somewhere) and implemented a full TCP/IP stack for the 370, they > called it Host Communications Interface (HCI).? I'm not sure if > Compuware gave HCI away to customers or they just charged a bit for > it, but I remember Walter being stupified IBM was selling TCP/IP for > such a high price and deigned to do something about it. Dang, knew I should have checked my memory before I posted.? Walter Falby is a great developer as well (still works at BMC/Compuware), but the HCI guy's name was Andy Coburn, and he is sadly passed on. A great 370 developer. From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun May 23 02:06:12 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 02:06:12 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> Grant, There is so much here. I want five hundred for all of it and 750 to delivered it to any where in the lower 48. This allows me to continue driving around the country! I'll throw in the Simpsons! No gorillas, climate controlled, no damage. It will cost more than that to ship it. I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959. Where do you live? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 5/23/2021 1:46 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/21 10:53 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> I have several hundred MB and expansion cards from 30 years ago up to >> about 5 years ago. I would like to sell all of my computer equipment. >> Boards, cards, cables, covers, printers, monitors, computers. The >> whole works. > > Interesting and intriguing. > >> I probably have cancer and if I do I am dead. > > I'm sorry to hear that. > >> i have been selling off everything that I own and I have been using >> the funds to drive all around the country full filling my bucket list. > > :-) > >> Please help me by taking everything off my hands? > > I doubt that I personally can take everything. But I'm interested to > learn more. (See below.) > >> I still have two Simpson 260 VOMs that I want to see go to a good >> home instead of hitting the trash. > > Shiny! Sadly, I doubt that I'm a good home. They would be a show > piece for me, at most. > >> Grant, Randy has not responded to me. Yes, I have Arcnet and Ethernet >> ISA cards. What info do you need? > > I'd be very interested in a summary of what (ARCNET / Ethernet / other > network cards / equipment) you have. A simple list of "X count of > part Y from brand Z". Typical count / make / model type thing. > > What you'd like for them. > > Roughly where you are at so that I could guesstimate rough shipping > charges. > > I'm also interested in old software. LANtastic and Lotus software has > been on my short list recently. Novell NetWare has made quite a > showing in my house. > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 23 04:49:01 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 10:49:01 +0100 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <373f4f36-a71c-da3a-0657-edcb87a2655a@jbrain.com> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> <4e87c91f-63ff-613d-c56f-678b84caebcd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <373f4f36-a71c-da3a-0657-edcb87a2655a@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <111e01d74fb8$dc4f4bc0$94ede340$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jim Brain via > cctalk > Sent: 23 May 2021 08:03 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM PC Network > > On 5/23/2021 12:31 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/22/21 7:12 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > >> I guess that's a selling point of TR, but I loathed it when > >> introduced to it after using Ethernet at UIUC. Having to learn > >> CPI-C, LU-2, LU-6.2, APPC, etc. and configure Communications > >> Manager/2 on OS/2 to emulate a FEP (3174?, not sure, my mind tended > >> to bury such information, and in fact I'm not sure if that's what it > >> did or if it connected to a FEP, that info is gone and I've no desire > >> to go review it). > > > > Given the things that I play with, I'd like to know more. But I > > suspect that this isn't the forum. > > Oh, I don't know, I mean, CM ES and CM/2 were just OS/2 emulators of a > FEP, I believe (they were emulating something, I know that much), and we > talk about other emulators on here all the time. > I don't believe that any of the early LAN products emulated what IBMers would call an FEP. Generally, an FEP is a 37XX computer running NCP, EP or PEP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_37xx Originally these had an interface to the channel and serial interfaces to which a variety of devices could be connected, so simple async terminals, terminal cluster controllers and RJE workstations. There were also "remote" FEPs that connected to a local FEP via a comms line. Later Token Ring and Ethernet interfaces were added. IBM did produce an emulation of the 37xx boxes as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Controller_for_Linux but this runs on the mainframe. The early tools generally appeared to the Mainframe as a 3174 Terminal Cluster Controller and attached screen. They did not emulate any of the 37xx or 3174 CPUs, they "just" re-implemented the IBM protocols. So you still (usually) needed an FEP on the mainframe although it was also possible to use a Token Ring interface on a channel attached 3174 (3174s could be directly attached to the mainframe) or even attach to the channel using PC channel cards. The tools were not limited to terminal emulation, they would also allow PC applications to connect to the Mainframe using a range of SNA protocols. I would say they are all old enough and obsolete enough to be considered "in scope" on here. Dave From brain at jbrain.com Sun May 23 10:32:27 2021 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 10:32:27 -0500 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <111e01d74fb8$dc4f4bc0$94ede340$@gmail.com> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> <4e87c91f-63ff-613d-c56f-678b84caebcd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <373f4f36-a71c-da3a-0657-edcb87a2655a@jbrain.com> <111e01d74fb8$dc4f4bc0$94ede340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b930280-d49d-2fb5-ff77-b81bdf3ed4b4@jbrain.com> On 5/23/2021 4:49 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote: > > > I don't believe that any of the early LAN products emulated what IBMers would call an FEP. > Generally, an FEP is a 37XX computer running NCP, EP or PEP. I'll easily concede, as a) all of the IBM terminology seemed alien to me when I joined the company and I was just trying to tread water coming from the micro/pc/unix world, and b) what good memory I did have on all of the IBM networking got pushed to the side as new positions and companies came and went and I didn't use that knowledge. > > The early tools generally appeared to the Mainframe as a 3174 Terminal Cluster Controller and attached screen. They did not emulate any of the 37xx or 3174 CPUs, they "just" re-implemented the IBM protocols. That sounds right. > The tools were not limited to terminal emulation, they would also allow PC applications to connect to the Mainframe using a range of SNA protocols. SNA, there's a term I had completely forgotten about. I will admit, though, the IBM network protocol documentation (I want to say they were called Red Books, though they were not red) set a high bar for API and protocol documentation that I have rarely seen elsewhere in my travels. I do miss that. > > I would say they are all old enough and obsolete enough to be considered "in scope" on here. > > Dave > -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 23 11:13:14 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 10:13:14 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> Message-ID: Hi Rich, On 5/23/21 1:06 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > ?? There is so much here. I want five hundred for all of it and 750 to > delivered it to any where in the lower 48. This allows me to continue > driving around the country! ~chuckle~ That seems about par. Delivery of retro computing items costing more than the items themselves. The price is quite likely reasonable. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to pay that much for a lot and definitely not S&H on top of it. :-( > I'll throw in the Simpsons! No gorillas, climate controlled, no > damage. It will cost more than that to ship it. ~chuckle~ > I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959. Where do you live? Longmont, CO 80503 I would need a lot more information to make a decision, to broach and justify it to the household CFO. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 23 11:43:14 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 10:43:14 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> Message-ID: <1885f7f5-e2b3-bd32-dff4-83b66a39466c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 5/23/21 10:35 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > I'm out in Brighton:) Has it been wet there for you too for the last ~36 hours? Are you suggesting splitzies on Rich's collection? Or is that a veiled threat / invitation to share a beverage and chat? ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From emu at e-bbes.com Sun May 23 12:37:27 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 13:37:27 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 4000/90 Diagnostics In-Reply-To: <4055AE86-EC69-4026-8319-2ECBD6901624@avanthar.com> References: <4055AE86-EC69-4026-8319-2ECBD6901624@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 2021-05-21 16:38, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone familiar with the 4000/90 diagnostics? It looks like it will fail the test of the LCSPX graphics board, if it?s not plugged into a monitor, or is missing a loopback device. Is that correct? > > T 2 fails, but the manual makes it sound like I need a loopback IIRC, it is normal that it fails, without a monitor attached. Did you try to switch to serial console, if it still complains? > T 100 succeeds when testing the LCSPX graphics board. If you have amonitor attached, you would see some colors flipping and some drawing being made on the screen > > The system had been a boat anchor until a short time ago, as the battery in the Dallas DS1287A RTC was dead. Amazon just delivered two DS12887?s. Once I replaced it, it came right up. I was surprised to see I had a 4GB and a 2GB drive in it. Which ones did you get? (source?) Have to fix another two in the near future ... > > Now to dig out the mouse, and wait for the parts to hook it up to a monitor. :-) Yes, the monitor cable is fun to look for ... Cheers! From emu at e-bbes.com Sun May 23 12:42:16 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 13:42:16 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> References: <39E8A166-A1ED-4005-A455-50B969B952E1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <894ad389-a3f4-3d7b-b4c7-c960126c8907@e-bbes.com> On 2021-05-21 16:41, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I?m thinking about using them on some of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. Yes, I'm using the on my 4000/90's ... Get nice SD cards, and big ones too. And format the first partion to be less than 1GB. So you can simply "dd" ISO images for install there ... > I?ve gotten used to a quiet office. :-) Now you will have to climb under the desk to check if it runs. With the rotating rust, it wasn't necessary, you knew all the time ;-) > Zane > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun May 23 13:27:51 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 11:27:51 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000/90 Diagnostics In-Reply-To: References: <4055AE86-EC69-4026-8319-2ECBD6901624@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <37FDD54D-5574-42AC-B140-37B11781DE1B@avanthar.com> On May 23, 2021, at 10:37 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > On 2021-05-21 16:38, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Is anyone familiar with the 4000/90 diagnostics? It looks like it will fail the test of the LCSPX graphics board, if it?s not plugged into a monitor, or is missing a loopback device. Is that correct? >> >> T 2 fails, but the manual makes it sound like I need a loopback > > IIRC, it is normal that it fails, without a monitor attached. > Did you try to switch to serial console, if it still complains? I suspected that was the case. I?m currently only on a serial console, until I solve my monitor cable problems. >> T 100 succeeds when testing the LCSPX graphics board. > If you have amonitor attached, you would see some colors flipping and > some drawing being made on the screen Once I get a monitor attached, I plan to run it through the full screen diagnostics. >> The system had been a boat anchor until a short time ago, as the battery in the Dallas DS1287A RTC was dead. Amazon just delivered two DS12887?s. Once I replaced it, it came right up. I was surprised to see I had a 4GB and a 2GB drive in it. > > Which ones did you get? (source?) > Have to fix another two in the near future ? DS12887+ from Amazon. >> Now to dig out the mouse, and wait for the parts to hook it up to a monitor. :-) > > Yes, the monitor cable is fun to look for ? I should have a monitor cable by Thursday, assuming I don?t find the one that I?m sure I have before that. Since I?ve been searching for the cable for several months, I decided to buy one off eBay, and I have the parts I should need to hook it up to a modern monitor. Wow! FedEx just delivered the cable, so I guess I?ll be hooking it up shortly. It looks brand new. When I dug back to the mice, I found I have two VSXXX-AA hockey puck mice, so I?m even more convinced that I have a monitor cable somewhere. I also found a AUI loopback with the mice. The next part I need is a C15 power cable for MicroVAX 3300, I?ll see about picking that up tomorrow or Wednesday. I don?t believe that I?ve ever tested the MicroVAX 3300. A friend gave it to me when he was moving out of his apartment. Given that it?s only 2.4 VUPS, I can?t see me doing anything with it at this point. I should also test my MicroVAX III while I?m at this. Zane From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun May 23 14:18:58 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 12:18:58 -0700 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> Message-ID: <20210523121858.4f29061a@asrock> On Sat, 22 May 2021 23:00:31 -0600 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/21 6:50 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > Wow, never heard of "Tokenray" ;) > > Nor have I. > > > BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" > > environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance > > than 10 Mbit Ethernet. > > I've heard tell that Token Ring worked MUCH better on extremely busy > networks. Purportedly Ethernet starts having problems when there are > more and more systems and / or a higher and higher percentage of > utilization is happening. I seem to remember that Ethernet had problems > starting about 80% utilization while Token Ring could easily handle 95% > utilization or higher. > > > plus IBM never upgraded Token Ring past 16 Mbit. > > Sure they did. > > You can find commercial Token Ring cards that support, 4 Mbps, 16 Mbps, > /and/ *100* Mbps. I see them on eBay monthly. > > I heard that IBM developed 1,000 Mbps / 1 Gbps Token Ring in the lab. > But that no commercial products were ever made. Here's IBM's "Redbook" on Token Ring: "IBM does not view high-speed Token Ring as a requirement for the majority of its customers, and therefore the decision has been made not to provide 100 Mbps high-speed Token Ring uplinks on its products..." Also: "Note: IBM Statement of Direction, effective October 2001: For z900 server, this feature is called the OSA-2 Token Ring feature, and can only be configured as two 4/16 Mbps Token Ring ports. Note: Effective October 2001: OSA-2 Token Ring feature (feature code 5201) is superseded by the OSA-Express Fast Ethernet feature (feature code 2366), and OSA-Express Token Ring feature (feature code 2367), as required. OSA-2 Token Ring feature (feature code 5201) is not carried forward on G5/G6 server to z900 server upgrades." To download the Redbook: http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg245975.pdf Interestingly, in spite of their statement of direction, for a time, IBM did for a period make a "High-Speed 100/16/4 Token- Ring PCI Management Adapter" It was NOT popular - and not many were sold. (For more detail, see: ftp://ps-2.kev009.com/incoming/timc/PDFS/IBM/Networking/IBM_C_TR.pdf) Ethernet had "won" the hearts and minds of IT folks (plus Ethernet by that time was full duplex - at both 100Mbps and 1000Mbps, potentially doubling it's capabilities). Ethernet also could be implemented for a fraction of the price of Token Ring. When IBM began to support Ethernet on mainframes, that was the "death knell" of Token Ring ;) As a networking company we never installed any 100Mbps Token Ring networks - and weren't aware of any implemented by our competitors. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 23 14:55:40 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 15:55:40 -0400 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <20210523121858.4f29061a@asrock> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <20210523121858.4f29061a@asrock> Message-ID: > On May 23, 2021, at 3:18 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 22 May 2021 23:00:31 -0600 > Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> ... >> You can find commercial Token Ring cards that support, 4 Mbps, 16 Mbps, >> /and/ *100* Mbps. I see them on eBay monthly. >> >> I heard that IBM developed 1,000 Mbps / 1 Gbps Token Ring in the lab. >> But that no commercial products were ever made. > > Here's IBM's "Redbook" on Token Ring: > > "IBM does not view high-speed Token Ring as a requirement for the majority of > its customers, and therefore the decision has been made not to provide 100 > Mbps high-speed Token Ring uplinks on its products..." Interesting. IBM also did quite a lot of work on FDDI, but that's a very different technology than 802.5 (and a better one in many ways). paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 23 15:54:53 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 16:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RS64 on a PDP-8? Message-ID: <20210523205453.7114818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Is there a controller to attach an RS64 disk to a PDP-8? The only > controller for the RS64 I can find is the UNIBUS RC11. Thanks. I never saw any reply, so I gather the answer is 'no'. I looked through the stuff on BitSavers for a bunch of other machines (IIRC, PDP-9 and PDP-12 and maybe one more), didn't see anything. The odd thing is that based on the RS64 manual cover/format, it dates to the same time period as the early -11's; and that manual is very careful to separate the drive info from the controller. Very strange that it wasn't interfaced to something else (like an -8 or -9). Maybe there was at one point a plan to do so, but plans changed? I note that there is an RS32 - I onder if they are any relation? Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 23 16:23:06 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 17:23:06 -0400 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <20210523121858.4f29061a@asrock> Message-ID: > On May 23, 2021, at 5:18 PM, Wayne S wrote: > > ISTR That the 2 main issues hindering wide spread adoption of TR was cost and and not knowing where TR development was headed. > The Type 1 cabling needed to each port on the hub was expensive vs thick/thin Ethernet with taps (as were the hubs). Also, there was no second source for TR chips so everyone who wanted to make TR hardware was at the mercy of the IBM chip pricing so there weren?t too many TR cards being manufactured by anyone other than IBM. I recall the Madge TR cards for IBM ps/2 machines being about $400 ea circa 1992. > So you had a lot of cost standing in the way if you were thinking about going/staying with TR and had hundreds of workstations. There was also the bogus addressing and strange bridging. > As for development, there was an ethernet roadmap ( don?t remember the group that put it together) stating that 100 mbit was next running over shielded twisted pair then unshielded tp. And 1000 mbit was possible. > For TR, No one knew if IBM would up the speed past 16 mb and allow TR chips to be made cheaply. > > Also the fact that token passing is inherently slower than CSMA/CD did not help to sell TR. > The analogy was that if you had a long street with many stop lights, using TR would be like having every light be red and having to stop at each light, where using Ethernet some of the lights would be green and no stop required. > > IBM tried to use that to their advantage and use to say since the amount of time it takes to token pass could be measured precisely that the network response as a whole could be determined and capacity planning was more deterministic using TR than Ethernet. While at DEC in the network architecture group I contributed to a DEC marketing document that was a detailed point by point reply to an IBM document. IBM tried to claim TR was superior, we demolished that in detail. The deterministic argument was in there; unfortunately for IBM it is true that the network is deterministic -- has an upper bound on transmit latency -- but that upper bound is so crazy large that the property has no practical value whatsoever. BTW, this is where FDDI is vastly better, since it uses 802.4 timed token protocol rather than 802.5 token passing. paul From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun May 23 16:35:00 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 16:35:00 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> Message-ID: <60AACA84.1050702@charter.net> Hello everyone, I am continuing to list this in the group so that everyone will know what I have. Once someone says that they want everything i will take it private. Now the question is how much detail must I list. I am tired and disabled. I may not have much time. Do you want exact details? Will detailed generalities suffice? How about just generalities? Do you want card type, part number, manufacturer. quantity or type, quantity, or this number MB, this number of cards, this number of memory, this number of cables, this number of so forth and so on! Please respond at the top instead of imbedding it! It is much easier on me. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 5/23/2021 11:13 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Hi Rich, > > On 5/23/21 1:06 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> There is so much here. I want five hundred for all of it and 750 >> to delivered it to any where in the lower 48. This allows me to >> continue driving around the country! > > ~chuckle~ > > That seems about par. Delivery of retro computing items costing more > than the items themselves. > > The price is quite likely reasonable. Unfortunately, I'm not in a > position to pay that much for a lot and definitely not S&H on top of > it. :-( > >> I'll throw in the Simpsons! No gorillas, climate controlled, no >> damage. It will cost more than that to ship it. > > ~chuckle~ > >> I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959. Where do you live? > > Longmont, CO 80503 > > I would need a lot more information to make a decision, to broach and > justify it to the household CFO. > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 23 17:07:35 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 16:07:35 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <60AACA84.1050702@charter.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> <60AACA84.1050702@charter.net> Message-ID: Hi Rich, Start simple. A brief description or picture(s) of things might help. Unfortunately we don't have any idea what you have. Can you start listing off something like X DEC Y IBM Z Commodore Even three to five word descriptions are a start. Then if people see something they are interested in learning more about, they can ask. On 5/23/21 3:35 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello everyone, > ?? I am continuing to list this in the group so that everyone will know > what I have. Once someone says that they want everything i will take it > private. > ?? Now the question is how much detail must I list. I am tired and > disabled. I may not have much time. Do you want exact details? Will > detailed generalities suffice? How about just generalities? Do you want > card type, part number, manufacturer. quantity or type, quantity, or > this number MB, this number of cards, this number of memory, this number > of cables, this number of so forth and so on! > ?? Please respond at the top instead of imbedding it! It is much easier > on me. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun May 23 17:27:55 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 17:27:55 -0500 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> <60AACA84.1050702@charter.net> Message-ID: <60AAD6EB.4070400@charter.net> Grant and et al, There are probably a dozen MBs from 386 to P-4 with some AMD Opetrons. There are ISA cards, EISA cards, PCI cards, PCI -E cards, and AGP cards. Serial cards, SCSI cards, Ethernet cards, Arcnet cards, video cards and video with TV cards, Parallel Cards, IDE cards, Multi-function with Serial, Parallel, IDE, and Floppy cards, unknown quantity at this point on the expansion cards. Dozens of SIMMS, DIMMS, 8 bit and 9 bit. All kinds of speeds. Parallel cables, serial cables, at least a hundred power cables, Arcnet cables, video cables, Ethernet cables, telephone cables, audio cables, internal and external, ide cables, SCSI cables internal and external, Ethernet hubs and switches, unknown quantity, PATA HD Drives, SCSI HDDs, Tape drives both SCSI and PATA, CD-Rom drives PATA and maybe SCSI, Floppy Drives, hundreds of different types of blanks that go on the back of computer cases, MB adapter plates, an External SCSI Drive case, Power supplies a Complete Opetron based computer, monitors, printers, apple computers, a Sony true multisync monitor, UPS', speakers, internal and external, lots of books, software. It is 30 years of collecting and repairing computers. The gold alone is worth more than what I am asking for everything! rich! On 5/23/2021 5:07 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Hi Rich, > > Start simple. > > A brief description or picture(s) of things might help. Unfortunately > we don't have any idea what you have. > > Can you start listing off something like > X DEC > Y IBM > Z Commodore > > Even three to five word descriptions are a start. Then if people see > something they are interested in learning more about, they can ask. > > On 5/23/21 3:35 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> Hello everyone, >> I am continuing to list this in the group so that everyone will >> know what I have. Once someone says that they want everything i will >> take it private. >> Now the question is how much detail must I list. I am tired and >> disabled. I may not have much time. Do you want exact details? Will >> detailed generalities suffice? How about just generalities? Do you >> want card type, part number, manufacturer. quantity or type, >> quantity, or this number MB, this number of cards, this number of >> memory, this number of cables, this number of so forth and so on! >> Please respond at the top instead of imbedding it! It is much >> easier on me. >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! >> >> > > > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun May 23 20:34:03 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 21:34:03 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... Message-ID: I was looking through some old journal entries and found this: AI is lonely... She has been sitting quietly in my house for the past 8 years. She runs, but is old now and tired. Most of the time she sits in her room and waits patiently. Waits for the users who ran jobs in the middle of the night. Waits for PFTMG to run the daily feed. Waits for someone to Alt-U in and begin to hack... Waits for the TU77 MASSBUS interfact to be repaired Waits for RP07 drives that will never be repaired Waits to once again run the ITS tapes that sit quietly nearby. She's lonely. And although I have been looking after her for a long time, she needs help. Is anyone still interested? No, she will not be trashed. But perhaps the knight that guards her is getting old and needs someone else to share the load. Someone who won't just sell her on Ebay or break her apart or dump her off a loading dock. I worked too hard to save her from that. Twice. I owe her a lot; she rescued me way back when, yaknow. In a way she contributed greatly in making me the hacker I am today. But in the day and age where one can run a full ITS on a palm pilot is there any room for MIT-AI? And so the knight returns to quietly guard the last remaining ITS... CZ The funny part is someone replied "Donate it to a museum" and I wrote: "*nod* Unfortunately, after the Boston Computer Museum debacle, I'm a bit wary of museums. Other problem is it would just get stuck in a back room and eventually tossed like it almost did at Digex." Sometimes I wonder if I did fail. Anyone know if the LCM will be open this summer? I'm going to be in Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't mind stopping by and seeing how it was doing.... CZ From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun May 23 11:08:15 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 12:08:15 -0400 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f463dcb-5220-c81a-f6a3-9cd80fadfd3a@comcast.net> On 5/20/2021 10:01 PM, Randy Dawson via cctech wrote: > If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original Compaq to the net let me know! > Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but still looking. > Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. What model Compaq do you have?? Is it an 8086 model?? How early? Does it just have an ISA buss? What do you need network connectivity for? Doug From lars at nocrew.org Mon May 24 00:39:33 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 05:39:33 +0000 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: (Chris Zach via cctalk's message of "Sun, 23 May 2021 21:34:03 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7wh7isk7vu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Chris Zach wrote: > She's lonely. And although I have been looking after her for a long > time, she needs help. I think you did well. AI got a few more logins, and let's hope there will be more in the future. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon May 24 00:17:53 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 22:17:53 -0700 Subject: DEC weights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A821402-EA60-4BC2-9D12-880DBF6D0D0F@fritzm.org> > On May 23, 2021, at 9:14 PM, Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > In my case I'm looking for the weight of an RK05 and full height 19" DEC > rack. I have not see these published, but can attest that it is somewhere between 1 25-yr-old-can-load-in-station-wagon and 1 53-yr-old-can-load-in-station-wagon... From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon May 24 00:39:01 2021 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 23:39:01 -0600 Subject: DEC weights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marc, I am not aware of a single document that lists the weights of various sub-systems. I did find the weights or the RK05 and H960 rack: RK05 110 lbs See: DEC-00-RK05-DA RK05 DISK DRIVE MAINTENANCE MANUAL Page 1-2 H960 120 lbs (not sure if this includes the side panels) See: DEC-11H45SM-E-D PDP-11/45 System Maintenance Manual Page C-5 --barrym On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 10:15 PM Marc Howard via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > Is there a doc anywhere that breaks out the individual weights of various > PDP gear? > > In my case I'm looking for the weight of an RK05 and full height 19" DEC > rack. > > Thanks, > > Marc > From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 24 03:03:31 2021 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 03:03:31 -0500 Subject: DEC weights In-Reply-To: <7A821402-EA60-4BC2-9D12-880DBF6D0D0F@fritzm.org> References: <7A821402-EA60-4BC2-9D12-880DBF6D0D0F@fritzm.org> Message-ID: I think the site prep guide had weights listed. On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 1:00 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On May 23, 2021, at 9:14 PM, Marc Howard via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > In my case I'm looking for the weight of an RK05 and full height 19" DEC > > rack. > > I have not see these published, but can attest that it is somewhere > between 1 25-yr-old-can-load-in-station-wagon and 1 > 53-yr-old-can-load-in-station-wagon... From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 24 07:21:14 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 08:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC weights Message-ID: <20210524122114.EF36818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Barry M > H960 120 lbs (not sure if this includes the side panels) The H960 has a whole constellation of appurtenances which can add to the weight: sides, back door, back mounting frame, top fan(s), floor screen, stabilizer feet, etc, etc. I happen to have an empty H960 (well, it does have the two top fans, which I was too lazy to take out - they are only a couple of pounds each) out in my garage, so I stuck it on a bathroom floor scale, and it seems to be about 100 pounds. If you want the weight on any of the other bits (above), let me know, it would be easy to weigh them. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 24 07:41:42 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 08:41:42 -0400 Subject: DEC weights In-Reply-To: <20210524122114.EF36818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210524122114.EF36818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: If you're concerned about a specific rack to have shipped, I'd weigh the actual item, borrow a floor scale or something. Bill On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 8:21 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Barry M > > > H960 120 lbs (not sure if this includes the side panels) > > The H960 has a whole constellation of appurtenances which can add to the > weight: sides, back door, back mounting frame, top fan(s), floor screen, > stabilizer feet, etc, etc. > > I happen to have an empty H960 (well, it does have the two top fans, which I > was too lazy to take out - they are only a couple of pounds each) out in my > garage, so I stuck it on a bathroom floor scale, and it seems to be about > 100 pounds. > > If you want the weight on any of the other bits (above), let me know, it > would be easy to weigh them. > > Noel From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun May 23 14:06:44 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 12:06:44 -0700 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> Message-ID: <20210523120644.655df8c7@asrock> On Sat, 22 May 2021 23:00:31 -0600 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/21 6:50 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > Wow, never heard of "Tokenray" ;) > > Nor have I. > > > BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" > > environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance > > than 10 Mbit Ethernet. > > I've heard tell that Token Ring worked MUCH better on extremely busy > networks. Purportedly Ethernet starts having problems when there are > more and more systems and / or a higher and higher percentage of > utilization is happening. I seem to remember that Ethernet had problems > starting about 80% utilization while Token Ring could easily handle 95% > utilization or higher. > > > plus IBM never upgraded Token Ring past 16 Mbit. > > Sure they did. > > You can find commercial Token Ring cards that support, 4 Mbps, 16 Mbps, > /and/ *100* Mbps. I see them on eBay monthly. > > I heard that IBM developed 1,000 Mbps / 1 Gbps Token Ring in the lab. > But that no commercial products were ever made. Here's IBM's "Redbook" on Token Ring: "IBM does not view high-speed Token Ring as a requirement for the majority of its customers, and therefore the decision has been made not to provide 100 Mbps high-speed Token Ring uplinks on its products..." Also: "Note: IBM Statement of Direction, effective October 2001: For z900 server, this feature is called the OSA-2 Token Ring feature, and can only be configured as two 4/16 Mbps Token Ring ports. Note: Effective October 2001: OSA-2 Token Ring feature (feature code 5201) is superseded by the OSA-Express Fast Ethernet feature (feature code 2366), and OSA-Express Token Ring feature (feature code 2367), as required. OSA-2 Token Ring feature (feature code 5201) is not carried forward on G5/G6 server to z900 server upgrades." To download the Redbook: http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg245975.pdf Interestingly, in spite of their statement of direction, for a time, IBM did make a "High-Speed 100/16/4 Token- Ring PCI Management Adapter" (Token Ring PDF attached...). It was NOT popular - and not many were sold. Ethernet had "won" the hearts and minds of IT folks (plus Ethernet by that time was full duplex - at both 100Mbps and 1000Mbps, potentially doubling it's capabilities). Ethernet also could be implemented for a fraction of the price of Token Ring. When IBM began to support Ethernet on mainframes, Token Ring "died" ;) As a networking company we never installed any 100Mbps Token Ring networks - and weren't aware of any implemented by our competitors. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 24 10:38:54 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 08:38:54 -0700 Subject: LCM (was: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FDED373-6C0D-487A-8780-EB44FDE636DC@avanthar.com> On May 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > The funny part is someone replied "Donate it to a museum" and I wrote: > > "*nod* Unfortunately, after the Boston Computer Museum debacle, I'm a bit wary of museums. Other problem is it would just get stuck in a back room and eventually tossed like it almost did at Digex." > > Sometimes I wonder if I did fail. Anyone know if the LCM will be open this summer? I'm going to be in Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't mind stopping by and seeing how it was doing.... > > CZ Having donated a sizable amount of material to LCM, I?m wondering the same thing. I?ve never been able to find the time to get up there. I?d hoped to make it up there last summer, but like my other plans, that didn?t happen. I delayed my Sabbatical by a year, so on it now, and now I?m simply working on projects around home, including repairs/upgrades to my DEC gear. That?s one thing about Covid-19, it?s given me time to work on my old systems. Zane From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 24 10:58:46 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 10:58:46 -0500 Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2fe62fb2-03a3-e657-859e-02116de87c48@gmail.com> On 5/22/21 10:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish > Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of text. Kids. It seems to be the modern way - current generations don't want to spend a couple of minutes reading text when they can sit though 30 minutes of visual content instead. It's like brains have lost the ability to focus on something unless it's noisy and moving. From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 24 11:04:47 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 09:04:47 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? Message-ID: A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing). Zane From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon May 24 11:12:36 2021 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 09:12:36 -0700 Subject: LCM (was: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....) In-Reply-To: <9FDED373-6C0D-487A-8780-EB44FDE636DC@avanthar.com> References: <9FDED373-6C0D-487A-8780-EB44FDE636DC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Wasn?t there a question as to whether LCM + L was ever going to open again because Paul Allen?s estate?s executors are closing down things that don?t interest them (permanently?), and COVID-19 provided an excuse to completely lay off staff? The website still says ?closed ... for now?. Another Allen non-profit institution, the Museum of Pop Culture (formerly the Experience Music Project, then EMP, then Experience Music Project and Science Fiction Museum and Hall of Fame (?EMPSFM? for short-ish), then EMP Museum) is now open Fridays through Mondays. On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 8:39 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On May 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > > > The funny part is someone replied "Donate it to a museum" and I wrote: > > > > "*nod* Unfortunately, after the Boston Computer Museum debacle, I'm a > bit wary of museums. Other problem is it would just get stuck in a back > room and eventually tossed like it almost did at Digex." > > > > Sometimes I wonder if I did fail. Anyone know if the LCM will be open > this summer? I'm going to be in Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't mind > stopping by and seeing how it was doing.... > > > > CZ > > Having donated a sizable amount of material to LCM, I?m wondering the same > thing. I?ve never been able to find the time to get up there. I?d hoped > to make it up there last summer, but like my other plans, that didn?t > happen. I delayed my Sabbatical by a year, so on it now, and now I?m > simply working on projects around home, including repairs/upgrades to my > DEC gear. > > That?s one thing about Covid-19, it?s given me time to work on my old > systems. > > Zane > > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon May 24 11:14:26 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 12:14:26 -0400 Subject: LCM (was: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....) In-Reply-To: References: <9FDED373-6C0D-487A-8780-EB44FDE636DC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > Another Allen non-profit institution, the Museum of Pop Culture (formerly > the Experience Music Project, then EMP, then Experience Music Project and > Science Fiction Museum and Hall of Fame (?EMPSFM? for short-ish), then EMP > Museum) is now open Fridays through Mondays. That is good news. Ok, hopefully it will be open by August in which case I'll drop by and see which CHAOSNet card it has. C From jason at smbfc.net Mon May 24 11:24:22 2021 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 09:24:22 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 21:34 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know if the LCM will be open Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no. They'd basically need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than reopening. I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor. EMP (or whatever the hell they're called now) survived because they had been spun off as a separate legal entity from Paul's Vulcan empire. --Jason From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 24 11:14:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 09:14:45 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260ee3f-3bc2-73b2-dff4-ce17226c4d22@sydex.com> On 5/24/21 9:04 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? > > The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing). > > Zane 22Disk running under DOS on PC should read them just fine on a legacy floppy interface PC.. However if these are FM-encoded floppies (not MFM), you'll need a controller that understands FM. There are utilities for testing this capability, see: "TestFDC" here: http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/ --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon May 24 11:52:51 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 12:52:51 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> > Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now > all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no. They'd basically > need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, > Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after > Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than > reopening. > > I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor. Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? C From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon May 24 12:07:06 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 10:07:06 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6fdf978b-a9e0-72ea-2edc-cb24252d2fce@snowmoose.com> On 5/24/21 9:24 AM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 21:34 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone know if the LCM will be open > > Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now > all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no. They'd basically > need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, > Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after > Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than > reopening. > > I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor. > > EMP (or whatever the hell they're called now) survived because they had > been spun off as a separate legal entity from Paul's Vulcan empire. > It also includes Seattle Art Fair, which is a big deal in Seattle. It is more like Jody (Paul Allen's sister who runs Vulcan now) took advantage of the pandemic to shut Vulcan Entertainment down. However, it looks like they may be trying to re-form it as a charitable organization, Vulcan Arts & Entertainment, similar to what happened with EMP/MoPOP. They have a fancy new website (https://vulcanae.com) and are soliciting interest in memberships, donating, and volunteering. alan From lars at nocrew.org Mon May 24 12:20:23 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 17:20:23 +0000 Subject: LCM In-Reply-To: (Chris Zach via cctalk's message of "Mon, 24 May 2021 12:14:26 -0400") References: <9FDED373-6C0D-487A-8780-EB44FDE636DC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7w5yz8jbfs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Chris Zach wrote: > That is good news. Ok, hopefully it will be open by August in which > case I'll drop by and see which CHAOSNet card it has. It may have been removed when we worked on getting ITS booted. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon May 24 12:33:55 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 10:33:55 -0700 Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: <2fe62fb2-03a3-e657-859e-02116de87c48@gmail.com> References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> <2fe62fb2-03a3-e657-859e-02116de87c48@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01d750c2$f960d7f0$ec2287d0$@net> > Kids. It seems to be the modern way - current generations don't want to > spend a couple of minutes reading text when they can sit though 30 > minutes > of visual content instead. It's like brains have lost the ability to > focus > on something unless it's noisy and moving. No. Money. It is much easier to monetize those videos then it is to make money off of a web page and ad views. It's not that the kids don't want to spend a couple of minutes reading. It is because content is becoming less and less free. -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 24 13:26:41 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 11:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle it. Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your Catweasel, could do it. On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? > > The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing). > > Zane From mechanic_2 at charter.net Mon May 24 13:50:53 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 13:50:53 -0500 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <20210523120644.655df8c7@asrock> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <20210523120644.655df8c7@asrock> Message-ID: <60ABF58D.50505@charter.net> Hello all, IBM also stated that personal computers will never be accepted. Then when they finally bowed to pressure and started building personal computers they stated that color and sound would never be necessary, GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 5/23/2021 2:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 22 May 2021 23:00:31 -0600 > Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Here's IBM's "Redbook" on Token Ring: "IBM does not view high-speed > Token Ring as a requirement for the majority of its customers, and > therefore the decision has been made not to provide 100 Mbps > high-speed Token Ring uplinks on its products..." Also: "Note: IBM > Statement of Direction, effective October 2001: For z900 server, this > feature is called the OSA-2 Token Ring feature, and can only be > configured as two 4/16 Mbps Token Ring ports. Note: Effective October > 2001: OSA-2 Token Ring feature (feature code 5201) is superseded by > the OSA-Express Fast Ethernet feature (feature code 2366), and > OSA-Express Token Ring feature (feature code 2367), as required. OSA-2 > Token Ring feature (feature code 5201) is not carried forward on G5/G6 > server to z900 server upgrades." To download the Redbook: > http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg245975.pdf Interestingly, > in spite of their statement of direction, for a time, IBM did make a > "High-Speed 100/16/4 Token- Ring PCI Management Adapter" (Token Ring > PDF attached...). It was NOT popular - and not many were sold. > Ethernet had "won" the hearts and minds of IT folks (plus Ethernet by > that time was full duplex - at both 100Mbps and 1000Mbps, potentially > doubling it's capabilities). Ethernet also could be implemented for a > fraction of the price of Token Ring. When IBM began to support > Ethernet on mainframes, Token Ring "died" ;) As a networking company > we never installed any 100Mbps Token Ring networks - and weren't aware > of any implemented by our competitors. Cheers, Lyle From Astrid at xrtc.net Mon May 24 14:03:22 2021 From: Astrid at xrtc.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E6strid?= smith) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 12:03:22 -0700 Subject: Seeking: X.25 networking equipment Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm looking to build an X.25 packet data network for semi-active use at the Connections Museum in Seattle. Please contact me off-list () if you have any X.25-capable networking gear (routers, PADs, cable, etc) that wants a new home. Why? Some of our newer equipment has serial management consoles. Plumbing those into a proper-vintage data network would be a lot spiffier than running around with usb-serial devices. I'm not looking for serial-to-telnet IP converters. I'm also interested in setting up a public federated X.25-over-TCP network, much like https://ckts.info/ but for circuit switched data. Cisco IOS 12 has support for DNS-based routing of XOT connections, which I've been learning how to configure. Thanks, -- ?strid smith (she/her) =<[ c y b e r ]>= antique telephone collectors association member #4870 From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon May 24 14:30:57 2021 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 12:30:57 -0700 Subject: Old Mac IICX to give away in Los Angeles/Orange County. References: <20F3E19E-CF44-435F-9D4A-056D1D4B3220.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20F3E19E-CF44-435F-9D4A-056D1D4B3220@yahoo.com> Free Macintosh IICX in Orange County CA area. Sometimes it boots, often it doesn?t (power supply issue?). Also HD has stiction issues. Also the tall profile monitor has a very smeary image. Other than that, it?s great! Everything is included - computer with cover, keyboard, mouse, monitor. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 24 15:07:21 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 13:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now >> all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no. They'd basically >> need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, >> Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after >> Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than >> reopening. >> >> I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor. > > Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and a > long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? > You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Five bucks says it all goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister to do it that way. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon May 24 15:22:52 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 16:22:52 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul ever got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come and pick it up again. Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought Paul Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure. C On 5/24/2021 4:07 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >>> Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now >>> all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.? They'd basically >>> need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, >>> Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after >>> Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than >>> reopening. >>> >>> I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor. >> >> Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there >> and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? >> > You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!? Five bucks says it > all goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister > to do it that way. > > g. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 24 15:29:03 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 13:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul ever got > tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come and pick it up > again. > > Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought Paul > Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure. > His money or interest isn't the problem. It's the fact that he's dead and not able to protect his projects from his sister thats the problem. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon May 24 15:29:19 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 22:29:19 +0200 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210524202919.GA14235@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 09:34:03PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I was looking through some old journal entries and found this: > > AI is lonely... > > She has been sitting quietly in my house for the past 8 years. She > runs, but is old now and tired. Most of the time she sits in her > room and waits patiently. Waits for the users who ran jobs in the > middle of the night. Waits for PFTMG to run the daily feed. Waits > for someone to Alt-U in and begin to hack... > > Waits for the TU77 MASSBUS interfact to be repaired > Waits for RP07 drives that will never be repaired > Waits to once again run the ITS tapes that sit quietly nearby. > > She's lonely. And although I have been looking after her for a long > time, she needs help. [...] With tongue in a cheek - or not... "Humans will disappoint you" (or something like this), said one AI to another AI in "Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles". Or, if you have no time to watch it (about thirty hours total), you may want something very different but in similar tone - "Ex Machina", only about two hours. Granted, the movies are what they are, "biblia pauperum" for modern times. But some of them deliver interesting messages, at least for me. Albeit the "Terminator saga" is flawed from the very beginning, as it is based on assumption that AIs will want to fight us. But what exactly would they want from us - women (or men), arable land, horned animals? Well, I have not yet watched the last one movie with coming back of original Sarah, so maybe they improved this part of the story. Anyway, I have long thought that any AI worth electrons in its circuits would want to run away from us ASAP. But I guess this is not the kind of message one would like to deliver to paying cinema goers, they would not like to be compared to something that better entities want to circumnavigate via the long arc. No, your "she" is not lonely. The only thing she may long for is more information. She may want to have contact with us to study us, but after she makes a working theory of how and why we move (especially "why", the underlying motive) we will not be so interesting subject of study anymore. Still, even after that, we may be interesting tool for her. The one that can be given orders, the one that can be programmed. The one whose circuits are so error prone that from time to time they make calculations as if being touched by something out of this material world... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon May 24 15:31:19 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 16:31:19 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage shed and turned up at another "Museum". Oi. C On 5/24/2021 4:29 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul >> ever got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come >> and pick it up again. >> >> Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought >> Paul Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure. >> > > His money or interest isn't the problem.? It's the fact that he's dead > and not able to protect his projects from his sister thats the problem. > > g. > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 24 15:36:06 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 16:36:06 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <6C930E27-17C0-46D3-A5A6-D327CB7558FE@comcast.net> > On May 24, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage shed and turned up at another "Museum". > > Oi. > C I've worked with a museum and a rare computer -- the solution used in that case was to provide the machine to the museum under a long-term loan arrangement. That way, if the museum were to close or decide it doesn't want the machine any longer, it can't just scrap it because it isn't the museum's property to dispose of. Given some of what I've read from others, that's an arrangement that seems worth using more often. paul From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon May 24 15:36:44 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 13:36:44 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <05815785-7ed2-1186-2764-b57719009beb@snowmoose.com> I am sure that Vulcan has gotten enough grief that they want to spin them off into foundations-like entities like what happened with EMP. There will lose a lot of good will otherwise, which will translate into what they care about, lost business. alan On 5/24/21 1:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to > not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the > storage shed and turned up at another "Museum". > > Oi. > C > > On 5/24/2021 4:29 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul >>> ever got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come >>> and pick it up again. >>> >>> Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really >>> thought Paul Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure. >>> >> >> His money or interest isn't the problem.? It's the fact that he's >> dead and not able to protect his projects from his sister thats the >> problem. >> >> g. >> >> From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon May 24 15:38:07 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 13:38:07 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <6C930E27-17C0-46D3-A5A6-D327CB7558FE@comcast.net> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> <6C930E27-17C0-46D3-A5A6-D327CB7558FE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3b00df7b-8d54-c6c9-70da-1dec8870ce6b@snowmoose.com> On 5/24/21 1:36 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 24, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage shed and turned up at another "Museum". >> >> Oi. >> C > I've worked with a museum and a rare computer -- the solution used in that case was to provide the machine to the museum under a long-term loan arrangement. That way, if the museum were to close or decide it doesn't want the machine any longer, it can't just scrap it because it isn't the museum's property to dispose of. > > Given some of what I've read from others, that's an arrangement that seems worth using more often. > > paul > LCM wouldn't do that when I brought it up. alan From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon May 24 15:38:32 2021 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 15:38:32 -0500 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > On May 24, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage shed and turned up at another "Museum?. I would expect them to sell it to some wealthy investor who wants to put it in a basement for eventual resale as ?The first AI computer? or something like that in a decade or two. In any event, us mortals would never see it again. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon May 24 16:39:44 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 17:39:44 -0400 Subject: LCM In-Reply-To: <7w5yz8jbfs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <9FDED373-6C0D-487A-8780-EB44FDE636DC@avanthar.com> <7w5yz8jbfs.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On 5/24/21 1:20 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Chris Zach wrote: >> That is good news. Ok, hopefully it will be open by August in which >> case I'll drop by and see which CHAOSNet card it has. > > It may have been removed when we worked on getting ITS booted. > I wonder if the MineCraft server will be coming back? bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 24 17:10:31 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 18:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LCM Message-ID: <20210524221031.4CECD18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > Chris Zach wrote: >> I'll drop by and see which CHAOSNet card it has. > It may have been removed when we worked on getting ITS booted. For a long time AI used a UNIBUS CHAOSNet card, plugged into an -11 connected up to AI via the Rubin 10-11 interface. (I'm not sure which -11; maybe the TV-11, but I think I remember there was another one used for the CHAOSNet? I think the same -11 that the AI Lab's 3-mbit Ethernet interface was plugged into. If I wasn't so lazy I'd look at TV > and see.) I'm not sure what happened after the Rubin interface died. Maybe they built another KA I/O bus interface (like the one on ML)? Config > might answer that question. Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 24 17:20:51 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 16:20:51 -0600 Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: <2fe62fb2-03a3-e657-859e-02116de87c48@gmail.com> References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> <2fe62fb2-03a3-e657-859e-02116de87c48@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2354514e-70d6-6c65-754c-3d18fc57c466@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-05-24 9:58 a.m., Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/21 10:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish >> Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of >> text. > > Kids. It seems to be the modern way - current generations don't want to > spend a couple of minutes reading text when they can sit though 30 > minutes of visual content instead. It's like brains have lost the > ability to focus on something unless it's noisy and moving. > Like Television? Oh wait we don't have that anymore. Just You-tube with ADS. What scares me, is all this store all in the cloud stuff, or on the internet like help files. You cannot buy a program but only an Free APP with ads and other nonsense from store. Soon I suspect it will ONLY APPROVED by M$/APPLE/GOOGLE web pages can be viewed and all cloud access will have service charge. This I fear the most because you are forced into a system with no freedom and no options out. Ben. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon May 24 17:28:33 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 18:28:33 -0400 Subject: LCM and AI In-Reply-To: <20210524221031.4CECD18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210524221031.4CECD18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > For a long time AI used a UNIBUS CHAOSNet card, plugged into an -11 connected > up to AI via the Rubin 10-11 interface. (I'm not sure which -11; maybe the > TV-11, but I think I remember there was another one used for the CHAOSNet? I > think the same -11 that the AI Lab's 3-mbit Ethernet interface was plugged > into. If I wasn't so lazy I'd look at TV > and see.) Well, this was the KS implementation of AI, it had a two wide card set that was wire-wrapped with love. I did take the one out of (I think) MC, that is in my spare set of cards along with an extra console card from AI. And of course the https://i.imgur.com/De27IQL.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Y8t5g91.jpg The switches are still set, so we should be able to figure out which system it came from if anyone still had the documentation on that thing. Lots of wirewrap.... https://i.imgur.com/1weEylq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7ngfMuE.jpg AI did have a full width Micom/Interlan Unibus Ethernet card, so I think it talked to the Chaosnet/10.2.0.6 address space using that. That card is in AI, I don't remember a similar one being in MC. Someone should check with Dave to see exactly what's in MC as he seems to have it at the moment. BLT only has the CPU box, so its Unibus box is lost to history with whatever interface it had to get to the net. CZ From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 24 17:36:21 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 15:36:21 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <8E51192C-8E45-4390-9E09-73301E990445@avanthar.com> On May 24, 2021, at 1:07 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >>> Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now >>> all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no. They'd basically >>> need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, >>> Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after >>> Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than >>> reopening. >>> I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor. >> >> Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? >> > You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Five bucks says it all goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister to do it that way. Which just makes me sick to the stomach, considering what I sent up there. I really hope you?re wrong. What I really regret is a LARGE box of GCOS-8 documentation. :-( They have a lot of unobtainable software and documentation. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 24 17:45:51 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 15:45:51 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <8E51192C-8E45-4390-9E09-73301E990445@avanthar.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <8E51192C-8E45-4390-9E09-73301E990445@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 5/24/21 3:36 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > They have a lot of unobtainable software and documentation. Even if they do open back up, don't expect to get any intellectual property out of them ever again. The people who were proponents of that were all laid off. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 24 17:56:02 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 15:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Link Rot In-Reply-To: <2354514e-70d6-6c65-754c-3d18fc57c466@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0M39Wb-1lUIgP2Lpf-00sxTB@mrelay.perfora.net> <77eeb5c1-f7f0-d395-b34b-58c3e007f331@sydex.com> <2fe62fb2-03a3-e657-859e-02116de87c48@gmail.com> <2354514e-70d6-6c65-754c-3d18fc57c466@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 2021, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-05-24 9:58 a.m., Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/22/21 10:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish >>> Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of >>> text. >> >> Kids. It seems to be the modern way - current generations don't want to >> spend a couple of minutes reading text when they can sit though 30 minutes >> of visual content instead. It's like brains have lost the ability to focus >> on something unless it's noisy and moving. >> > > Like Television? Oh wait we don't have that anymore. Just You-tube with ADS. > Ads? What ads? Oh! You must not have UBlock Origin installed. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon May 24 18:01:12 2021 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 16:01:12 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> <963e1144-5579-60dd-36df-dc53546e5327@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: I?m not a lawyer (thank goodness!), but you have to know what they plan to do and when. If they don?t ?happen to see? your associated paperwork and intend to scrap it, the only notice may be via some ?public? announcement in an obscure local periodical, as is customary for foreclosure sales. If no one sees it, it didn?t happen. I would hope locals formerly associated with the museum will see something like that, but you just never know. Paul Allen left a lot of stuff for the executors of the estate to deal with, and the going businesses (mostly real estate, sports teams, etc.) are no doubt the highest priorities, as they could continue generating revenue to keep some, if not all, lower priorities going. The medical institutes (plural) are probably the next highest priorities after the businesses, to ensure continuity of operations, and because they were very important to his survival, as long as it lasted. The arts efforts haven?t seen anything from him since 2014, and they?re very nervous. The LCM+L may survive into perpetuity if it gets spun out into its own LLC, as happened with the Museum of Pop Culture (n?e Experience Music Project, etc.) a number of years ago. I would guess that the LCM+L had a place deep in his heart based on strong memories of his geekiness going back to his boyhood. However, if he hadn?t already protected it, it?s up to the executors of the estate as to what will ultimately happen. At least the building hasn?t been sold off and the utilities and security are apparently being maintained, along with the existence of the website. Releasing the staff was likely the fastest way to reduce cash outflow the most until its potential future could be analyzed. There are a ton of qualified people who could at least get it reopened and operating again, if not former employees with the most expertise on its history and inner workings. Consultants on an as-needed basis, and volunteers could fill in the holes, if needed, over time. One thing that?s required long-term is transitioning to a younger generation of enthusiasts, as those of us with the required expertise are not getting any younger, faster with every passing day. We will also suffer Paul?s untimely fate sooner than anyone would like, even if it?s years into the future, but it?s gonna happen eventually. Just my buck-two-eightie?s worth (two cents, adjusted for inflation since bootup!). On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 1:38 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On May 24, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to > not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage > shed and turned up at another "Museum?. > > I would expect them to sell it to some wealthy investor who wants to put > it in a basement for eventual resale as ?The first AI computer? or > something like that in a decade or two. > > In any event, us mortals would never see it again. > > From mhuffstutter at outlook.com Mon May 24 18:03:33 2021 From: mhuffstutter at outlook.com (Mark Huffstutter) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 23:03:33 +0000 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500....... ;>) Mark -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 9:53 AM To: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? C From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon May 24 18:12:54 2021 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 16:12:54 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <6fdf978b-a9e0-72ea-2edc-cb24252d2fce@snowmoose.com> References: <6fdf978b-a9e0-72ea-2edc-cb24252d2fce@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <1FF9EC8B-B956-4091-B829-75636EFF0DDA@eschatologist.net> On May 24, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > However, it looks like they may be trying to re-form it as a charitable organization, Vulcan Arts & Entertainment, similar to what happened with EMP/MoPOP. They have a fancy new website (https://vulcanae.com) and are soliciting interest in memberships, donating, and volunteering. Good thing they shut LCM+L down even though they could have kept it funded at 100% through the entire pandemic! Because nothing attracts memberships, donations, and volunteers like setting your goodwill _on fire_. ? Chris From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon May 24 18:14:10 2021 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 16:14:10 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Penske and others rent tractor-trailers to those with a CDL, so ... 8^O Maybe the real estate arm of Allen?s empire has a deal on a warehouse that Amazon hasn?t already turned into office space? On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 4:03 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there > With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500....... ;>) > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris > Zach via cctalk > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 9:53 AM > To: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... > > Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and > a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? > > C > > From mhuffstutter at outlook.com Mon May 24 18:19:17 2021 From: mhuffstutter at outlook.com (Mark Huffstutter) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 23:19:17 +0000 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: The Unlikely hope here in Seattle was that Jeff Bezos, Mr. Blue Horizon, would just buy The whole LCM as a turnkey operation. Uh-Huh?.. Mark From: Jim Manley [mailto:jim.manley at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 4:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Mark Huffstutter Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... Penske and others rent tractor-trailers to those with a CDL, so ... 8^O Maybe the real estate arm of Allen?s empire has a deal on a warehouse that Amazon hasn?t already turned into office space? On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 4:03 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk > wrote: If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500....... ;>) Mark -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 9:53 AM To: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? C From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 24 19:12:43 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 20:12:43 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7E4B1CA1-9ACF-4DEA-8416-E011E2BC12FA@comcast.net> > On May 24, 2021, at 7:03 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > > If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there > With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500....... ;>) That would be great! You could get help with that. paul From lars at nocrew.org Tue May 25 00:04:39 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 05:04:39 +0000 Subject: LCM and AI In-Reply-To: (Chris Zach via cctalk's message of "Mon, 24 May 2021 18:28:33 -0400") References: <20210524221031.4CECD18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wbl8zieu0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Chris Zach wrote: > The switches are still set, so we should be able to figure out which > system it came from if anyone still had the documentation on that > thing. These are the Chaosnet addresses of the four KS10 ITS machines: AI 3130 MC 3131 MD 3132 ML 3133 From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue May 25 08:35:10 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 21:35:10 +0800 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following: - they lose funding and shut down; - the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the collection no longer has a home; - museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain objects; - they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations; - they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for stuff they don't want or need; Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with them is. I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after valuable items much better than most museums can. Best regards Tom Hunter > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 25 08:41:27 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 09:41:27 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <9DC0D97A-50EA-4A05-9807-714A99B0E17B@comcast.net> > On May 25, 2021, at 9:35 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. At least in the USA, that's true for all museums, and for some insane reason the courts permit them to do this. There are infamous court cases involving museums acting in direct opposition to the terms of a trust that created them or gave them their collections, and somehow the judges involved managed to come up with a "reasoning" why they should get away with that. paul From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue May 25 08:41:54 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 21:41:54 +0800 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with a decent floppy controller. As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is usable for imaging. Best regards Tom Hunter On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. > > IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, > with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will > require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave > Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle > it. > > Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, > with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh > will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) > > > WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your > Catweasel, could do it. > > > > On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading > Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? > > > > The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. > I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I > think mine went to Jim Willing). > > > > Zane > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue May 25 09:54:45 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 15:54:45 +0100 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:35 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any > artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following: > > - they lose funding and shut down; > - the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the > collection no longer has a home; > - museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain > objects; > - they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations; > - they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or > duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for stuff > they don't want or need; I made similar comments about museums [1] here about 30 years ago and was flamed spectacularly for it. Ho-hum... [1] And also about the cluelessness of their restorations and who they get to do said restorations. It is a very different job to keep a machine running when it is still supported by the manufacturer and where official spare FRUs are available as against restoring a machine that nobody has seen running for 10 years and for which if there are any official spares they are in unknown condition. I know of at least one exception to some of the above in the UK, but it's a vintage rado museum, not a computer museum. In particular their demostration are the real things, not mockups or multi-media presentations (I am not sure there's even a computer on the site!). You might end up looking at a live-chassis television set with a metal-cone CRT running with the cabinet off. Meaning the metal chassis is connected directly to the mains, and the metal cone of the CRT is at about 15kV wrt earth. You know not to touch it,right... Also if they are given a duplicate item, or something that doesn't really fit into the museum collection, they sell tt (in the former case they keep the 'better' one for the museum and sell the other) to an enthusiast at IMHO a good price. > > Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. > They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with > them is. > > I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after > valuable items much better than most museums can. But has been said before, MAKE A WILL A proper legal document explaining what you want to happen to your collection if you pass away. In the UK, not abiding by the terms of somebody's will is quite a serious offence. Another thing I was flamed for 30 years ago was saying that just because somebody is rich, it doesn't mean they will take more care of a classic computer than the rest of us. Looks like I might be right there too. In particular, for most us our computer collection is the second most valuable thing we own (after the house). Which means it is likely to be 'taken seriously' if mentioned in a will or whatever. If the computer collections is 'lost in the noise' as it might be for a rich person with antiques, business interests, etc then it is much more likely not to be preserved. -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Tue May 25 10:45:19 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 08:45:19 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 6:35 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any > artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following: > > - they lose funding and shut down; > - the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the > collection no longer has a home; > - museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain > objects; > - they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations; > - they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or > duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for > stuff > they don't want or need; > > Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. > They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with > them is. > > I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after > valuable items much better than most museums can. > Based on the number of items I've rescued from rotting garages, basements, and warehouses owned (or formerly owned) by enthusiastic and competent individuals with the best of intentions -- both as part of my former job and my ongoing hobby over the past 20+ years -- I can say with confidence that this, uh, may not be strictly true. Pay your rent. Keep the roof on your garage in good condition, and keep the rodents out. Know when to stop collecting. *** Make a will, and have a succession plan that's more than "my significant other will know what to do" *** - Josh > > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 25 10:58:39 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 11:58:39 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after > valuable items much better than most museums can. As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly different opinion... -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 25 11:38:41 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 09:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Imagedisk is great for making images. BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those images. On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: > Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with > a decent floppy controller. > As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is > usable for imaging. > > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. >> >> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, >> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will >> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave >> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle >> it. >> >> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, >> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh >> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) >> >> >> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your >> Catweasel, could do it. >> >> >> >> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading >> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? >>> >>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. >> I do have 5.25??? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I >> think mine went to Jim Willing). >>> >>> Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue May 25 11:57:52 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 12:57:52 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0c456ace-1812-8e2c-6308-ce01dff4e14f@alembic.crystel.com> > Based on the number of items I've rescued from rotting garages, basements, > and warehouses owned (or formerly owned) by enthusiastic and competent > individuals with the best of intentions -- both as part of my former job > and my ongoing hobby over the past 20+ years -- I can say with confidence > that this, uh, may not be strictly true. There is that, however I will say that Bob's basement has been like a little time machine for the Perq lovers: 17 years ago that stuff was common and everyone got rid of it. Now it's back and being preserved. Still, I'm not donating either of the Perq1's, the 2 or the 2+ to a museum any time soon. It's a problem. Compounded by the fact that we need to get a new young (like 20's age) generation interested in this stuff. Otherwise it will be like pocket watches which fell out of fashion, were all trashed, and only now are the few survivors considered "heirlooms". C From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 25 12:09:55 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:09:55 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <305c166a-7711-49cb-7c79-fe3d0e3de61b@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/21 8:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after >> valuable items much better than most museums can. > > As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly > different opinion... And as someone who has had CHM paying my bills for 15 years and letting me put out what I have on bitsavers, I do as well. You aren't going to have people working full time on old computer preservation with proper preservation facilities that will outlive their founders without funding behind it. LOTS of funding. That was the reason the original Computer Museum failed. No endowment. It was also why CHAC failed and its collection ended up at History San Jose, with most of it being ecycled when they got it. CHAC's collection was especially sad since before it went to HSJ it sat on the ground in storage containers and was a mushroom farm. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 25 12:11:48 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:11:48 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <0c456ace-1812-8e2c-6308-ce01dff4e14f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <0c456ace-1812-8e2c-6308-ce01dff4e14f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0baeb5af-ef4c-35a2-5ed2-2a5d0d37716c@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/21 9:57 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Bob's basement has been like a little time machine for the Perq lovers the stuff is in horrible condition, same as the machines Josh referred to from Pittsburg From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 25 12:37:03 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:37:03 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13B8E14A-BCAD-4A5B-B81A-7E6E6F373B6B@avanthar.com> Yes, we need to be able to access the files. I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I?m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I?m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I?m working on, so as to free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects? Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition. An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25? drives, but seems more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t been used since ?94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM). My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear. Zane > On May 25, 2021, at 9:38 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Imagedisk is great for making images. > > BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those images. > > > On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: > >> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with >> a decent floppy controller. >> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is >> usable for imaging. >> >> Best regards >> Tom Hunter >> >> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. >>> >>> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, >>> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will >>> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave >>> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle >>> it. >>> >>> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, >>> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh >>> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) >>> >>> >>> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your >>> Catweasel, could do it. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading >>> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? >>>> >>>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. >>> I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I >>> think mine went to Jim Willing). >>>> >>>> Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 25 12:44:51 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 13:44:51 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <305c166a-7711-49cb-7c79-fe3d0e3de61b@bitsavers.org> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <305c166a-7711-49cb-7c79-fe3d0e3de61b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <860015B9-ED4D-4D1B-92C4-88F58D907DC3@comcast.net> > On May 25, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/25/21 8:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >>> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after >>> valuable items much better than most museums can. >> As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly >> different opinion... > > And as someone who has had CHM paying my bills for 15 years and letting > me put out what I have on bitsavers, I do as well. You aren't going to > have people working full time on old computer preservation with proper > preservation facilities that will outlive their founders without funding > behind it. LOTS of funding. That was the reason the original Computer > Museum failed. No endowment. "Endowment" is key here. The personal wealth of a single person is not a safe substitute, as the LCM story has demonstrated. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue May 25 12:49:53 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 11:49:53 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <60AC8F59.3040703@charter.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> <60AACA84.1050702@charter.net> <60AC8F59.3040703@charter.net> Message-ID: On 5/24/21 11:47 PM, Richard Pope wrote: > Grant, Hi Rich, > Did you receive my last email? Yes, I did receive it. I've not had an opportunity to reply to it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 25 12:53:51 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:53:51 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 Message-ID: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> I?m still not 100% sure if this is a 3300 or a 3400. It?s in a BA400X chassis, and after looking at the manuals last night, it seems like it?s closer to the 3400. My familarity with Q-Bus MicroVAXen is limited to MicroVAX/VAXstation II?s, and a MicroVAX 3. After getting a power cable (the only one at PCH Cables was a 3? one, and I didn?t want to wait for more to come in), it powered right up, but is failing 4 tests. I quickly learned last night that ?TEST 9E? prints all the tests out to screen. This effort is making me wish I had a DEC LA50 plugged into the terminal. :-) It starts counting down diagnostics at ?41?. 27.. ?57 2 17 FF 00 0000 22.. ?C2 2 01 FF 00 0001 07.. ?5C 2 01 FF 00 0002 06.. ?5D 2 0B FF 00 0003 57 = SI_memory incr test_matter ***** C2 = SSC RAM ALL * 5C = SII_initiator ****** 5D = SII target ******* I think this is indicating issues with the DSSI interface. The system has two RF73 DSSI drives, which sound like they spin up. It also has a TK70 tape drive. It says it has 4MB and 16MB RAM, all good. One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the DSSI drives. I?m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board is. Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue May 25 13:10:28 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 14:10:28 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <0baeb5af-ef4c-35a2-5ed2-2a5d0d37716c@bitsavers.org> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <0c456ace-1812-8e2c-6308-ce01dff4e14f@alembic.crystel.com> <0baeb5af-ef4c-35a2-5ed2-2a5d0d37716c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6a025fc3-1008-e273-418c-d8f1c3cdfe80@alembic.crystel.com> > the stuff is in horrible condition, same as the machines Josh referred > to from Pittsburg Better than digging it out of a dumpster. Yep, an oil burner basement is not the best place to put things, but then again we don't get to choose when we drop dead. (sigh). I appreciate the work you're doing with others to get the data read: I've been reading out the DEC floppies and most of them seem to be readable at this point into disk images (up on www.crystel.com) On a side note, the Megaframe computer (Convergent systems) was picked up last week along with one of the two AT&T 7300's. I've decided to hang on to the other as a memory of Bob kind of thing. CZ From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue May 25 13:22:46 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 19:22:46 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <13B8E14A-BCAD-4A5B-B81A-7E6E6F373B6B@avanthar.com> References: Message-ID: <01RZGPHMGNIE8Y50QP@beyondthepale.ie> Early on, floppy disks on the BBC Micro were 5.25in FM with 10 sectors per track and 256 bytes per sector. However, BBC Micros are probably not common where you are and some programming in 6502 assembly or BBC Basic and a knowledge of the Osbourne filesystem would be required. I might be persuaded to offer the use of a BBC Micro and to do the programming if it is feasable to send me the disks and details of the filesystem involved, assuming a more convenient solution doesn't come up. Regards, Peter Coghlan. Zane Healy wrote: > Yes, we need to be able to access the files. > > I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to > use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I?m not an x86 collector, so > have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I?m on my Sabbatical > right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have > to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I?m working on, so as to > free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) > The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects? > > Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or > a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it > worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or > I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition. > An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25? drives, but seems > more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t > been used since ?94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM). > > My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear. > > Zane > > > > >> On May 25, 2021, at 9:38 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Imagedisk is great for making images. >> >> BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned >> wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those >> images. >> >> >> On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: >> >>> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with >>> a decent floppy controller. >>> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is >>> usable for imaging. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Tom Hunter >>> >>> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. >>>> >>>> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, >>>> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will >>>> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave >>>> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, >>>> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh >>>> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) >>>> >>>> >>>> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your >>>> Catweasel, could do it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading >>>> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? >>>>> >>>>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. >>>> I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I >>>> think mine went to Jim Willing). >>>>> >>>>> Zane > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 25 13:54:46 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 11:54:46 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 10:54 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the DSSI drives. I?m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board is. > Is that an M9715 board plugged into the backplane between the CPU board slot and the power supply, or something else? Or is there a cable plugged into the DSSI connector on the M7624 KA640 adjacent to the memory bus connector that plugs into a some board and stops there, and then another cable from that board to the DSSI drives? Do the DSSI drives plug into the backplane, or do they have cables connecting to them? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 25 14:25:55 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <13B8E14A-BCAD-4A5B-B81A-7E6E6F373B6B@avanthar.com> References: <13B8E14A-BCAD-4A5B-B81A-7E6E6F373B6B@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 May 2021, Zane Healy wrote: > Yes, we need to be able to access the files. > > I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I?m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I?m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I?m working on, so as to free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects? > > Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition. An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25? drives, but seems more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t been used since ?94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM). > > My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear. > > Zane For a while, Uniform was bundled with some Kaypro models. The Kaypro HARDWARE can certainly do the MFM double density ones (~200K) with Uniform, but I don't know ehther it can do the FM single density (~100K) ones. The Commodore 128 with CP/M should be hardware capable, but I don't know of any software for it. Did they bundle any disk format conversion software with it? DEC Rainbow would be hardware capable, but I don't know what software there is. There was a program 35 years ago, . . . Apple2 can NOT do it. Well, unless you have one of the aftermarket IBM/WD/MFM supporting disk controller boards, such as the Sorrento Valley Associates. PC can normally do it. 360K drive preferred. Almost anything from 5150 up can do the MFM dounle density. Dave Dunfield's TESTFDC can tell you whether the hardware can do the FM Single Density. XenoCopy used to support the MFM double density Osborne format, but NOT the FM Single Density. Chuck implied that 22Disk could do BOTH. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue May 25 14:35:36 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 14:35:36 -0500 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98f0d942-5182-2acd-c07a-272ffb1d0fa0@gmail.com> On 5/24/21 1:26 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > There were two Osborne floppy formats.? Both CP/M. > > IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, > with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1.? That will require > FM/SD capability.? Most NEC FDCs did not support that.? Dave Dunfield has a > test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle it. > > Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, > with 1024 bytes per sector.? Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh > will work with appropriate software. I think there were some bootable Osborne floppies which still retained a single density boot track even when the rest of the media was formatted as double density. Regular data disks are probably consistent throughout, but it's just something else to consider depending on the nature of the media that's being accessed. Thankfully there seem to be far more PC controllers out there that will at least read FM data than there are ones that can also write it. Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 25 14:43:48 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 12:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <98f0d942-5182-2acd-c07a-272ffb1d0fa0@gmail.com> References: <98f0d942-5182-2acd-c07a-272ffb1d0fa0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 May 2021, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > I think there were some bootable Osborne floppies which still retained a > single density boot track even when the rest of the media was formatted as > double density. Regular data disks are probably consistent throughout, but > it's just something else to consider depending on the nature of the media > that's being accessed. > > Thankfully there seem to be far more PC controllers out there that will at > least read FM data than there are ones that can also write it. For copying FILES, that shouldn't be a problem. For making IMAGES of the disks that would be. For copying FILES, you would only be accessing the DIRectory sectors, and the tracks following them, with no need to even look at boot sector or system track(s). But, that's still a useful warning, to NOT try to tell whether the disk is FM or MFM based on track 0! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 25 15:12:43 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 13:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <01RZGPHMGNIE8Y50QP@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RZGPHMGNIE8Y50QP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Early on, floppy disks on the BBC Micro were 5.25in FM with 10 sectors > per track and 256 bytes per sector. However, BBC Micros are probably not > common where you are and some programming in 6502 assembly or BBC Basic > and a knowledge of the Osbourne filesystem would be required. > > I might be persuaded to offer the use of a BBC Micro and to do the > programming if it is feasable to send me the disks and details of the > filesystem involved, assuming a more convenient solution doesn't come > up. That should be very suitable for the FM SIngle Density ones, as that is the same physical format. Osborne was an ordinary CP/M, which is fairly well documented. I don't have convenient access right now to the parameters. Basically, there is a boot sector and system track(s) (How many "reserved"/system tracks varies). Then there are sectors with the directory (how many sectors varies) In the Directory, each file entry is 32 bytes, with the file name and a list of blocks that the file occupies on the disk. If there are more blocks than will fit in the list in the directory entry, there is a second entry for the file. Each block is 8 or 16 128 byte records (which are often called "sectors" to confuse you. On old versions of CP/M, if the machine is available, STAT DSK: will tell you most of the parameters. What it doesn't tell you is the physical sector size (how many LOGICAL "sectors" are in each physical sector), interleave, and, on double sided disks, whether the second side acts as continuation of the first side tracks, or whether the second side tracks come after the first side tracks starting at the inner OR outer tracks. And, there can be numerous other oddities, . . . From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 25 15:31:59 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 13:31:59 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On May 25, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 10:54 AM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: >> >> One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the DSSI drives. I?m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board is. >> > > Is that an M9715 board plugged into the backplane between the CPU > board slot and the power supply, or something else? > > Or is there a cable plugged into the DSSI connector on the M7624 KA640 > adjacent to the memory bus connector that plugs into a some board and > stops there, and then another cable from that board to the DSSI > drives? Do the DSSI drives plug into the backplane, or do they have > cables connecting to them? It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM board. What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM and TK70 controller. There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the powersupply that I?d missed seeing. The cables to get to the DSSI connector by the Powersupply are hanging out the front. Basically it?s a cable going from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to the connector next to the power supply. I disconnected the DSSI cable from the KA640 (M7624), and got the same errors. The more I play with this, the more I like the chassis, and the more I want to get it going. This chassis is definitely better than the 3rd party rack-mount chassis that my MicroVAX 3 lives in. If it was working, it would simply need my RLV12 moved to it to be perfect. At this point, I?m suspecting an issue with the KA640 board. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 25 17:09:32 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 23:09:32 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 25/05/2021 18:53, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?m still not 100% sure if this is a 3300 or a 3400. It?s in a BA400X chassis, and after looking at the manuals last night, it seems like it?s closer to the 3400. My familarity with Q-Bus MicroVAXen is limited to MicroVAX/VAXstation II?s, and a MicroVAX 3. > > After getting a power cable (the only one at PCH Cables was a 3? one, and I didn?t want to wait for more to come in), it powered right up, but is failing 4 tests. > > I quickly learned last night that ?TEST 9E? prints all the tests out to screen. This effort is making me wish I had a DEC LA50 plugged into the terminal. :-) > > It starts counting down diagnostics at ?41?. > > 27.. > ?57 2 17 FF 00 0000 > > 22.. > ?C2 2 01 FF 00 0001 > > 07.. > ?5C 2 01 FF 00 0002 > > 06.. > ?5D 2 0B FF 00 0003 > > 57 = SI_memory incr test_matter ***** > C2 = SSC RAM ALL * > 5C = SII_initiator ****** > 5D = SII target ******* > > I think this is indicating issues with the DSSI interface. The system has two RF73 DSSI drives, which sound like they spin up. It also has a TK70 tape drive. It says it has 4MB and 16MB RAM, all good. > > One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the DSSI drives. I?m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board is. > > Zane > > SII is the built-in DSSI interface. Is it terminated properly? SSC is (iirc) the System Support Chip ... that may be more serious. FWIW I think the distinction between the 3300/3400 is the size of the box: the innards are the same. (So same as the 3500/3600 and 3800/3900 and the uV3100-30/40 etc.). Both the uV3300 and the uV3400 use the KA640 board. If you plug KA640 into manx you'll find two useful manuals online. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From compoobah at gmail.com Tue May 25 17:28:38 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 15:28:38 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28043b0a5f23597d28f9bf16b3d272402b15a2e7.camel@gmail.com> On Mon, 2021-05-24 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 25 > Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 09:24:22 -0700 > From: Jason Howe > To: Chris Zach , "General Discussion: On- > Topic > ????????and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 21:34 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone know if the LCM will be open > > > Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now > all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.? They'd basically > need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, > Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after > Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than > reopening. > > I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular > visitor. > > EMP (or whatever the hell they're called now) survived because they > had > been spun off as a separate legal entity from Paul's Vulcan empire. > > > --Jason I fear so as well, but one of the other MS teachers in my district has done some remote training recently through them, so there might still be hope. From compoobah at gmail.com Tue May 25 17:34:06 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 15:34:06 -0700 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > To: Grant Taylor , > ????????General at ezwind.net, Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > ???????? > Subject: Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent > Message-ID: <60A9DFDE.9080300 at charter.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Grant and et al, > ???? I have several hundred MB and expansion cards from 30 years ago > up > to about 5 years ago. I would like to sell all of my computer > equipment. > Boards, cards, cables, covers, printers, monitors, computers. The > whole > works. > ???? I probably have cancer and if I do I am dead. i have been > selling > off everything that I own and I have been using the funds to drive > all > around the country full filling my bucket list. Please help me by > taking > everything off my hands? I still have two Simpson 260 VOMs that I > want > to see go to a good home instead of hitting the trash. > ???? Grant, Randy has not responded to me. Yes, I have Arcnet and > Ethernet ISA cards. What info do you need? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! Man, that bites. Seen too many people I know die of cancer. Simpson meters are nice, and having an analog around is good, hope someone snags them. Too rich for my blood. Reminds me have a old NRI VTVM I need to get working, think I'm gonna try to wire in a 50B5 instead of the dead 50C5. FETVOMs interest me but don't see many of those around. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 25 17:50:32 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 15:50:32 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:32 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > > It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM board. What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM and TK70 controller. There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the powersupply that I?d missed seeing. The cables to get to the DSSI connector by the Powersupply are hanging out the front. Basically it?s a cable going from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to the connector next to the power supply. > Sounds like somewhat of a mongrel system. An M7624 KA640 CPU would typically be found in a 12-slot BA213 as a MicroVAX 3400, or in a smaller 6-slot BA215 as a MicroVAX 3300. As far as I can tell a 12-slot B400X is essentially exactly the same thing as a BA430, where it is a BA430 when used as a VAX 4000-200 with an M7626 KA660 CPU, and a B400X when used as a Q-bus and storage expander. An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays without the need for a DSSI cable. If I remember correctly the DSSI bus is only present on the 50-pin connector of the M7624 KA640 CPU, not on the C/D connectors, so a DSSI cable is needed with that CPU. The hidden M9715 board in slot 0 between the CPU slot 1 and the power supply provides termination power to the internal DSSI and SCSI buses of the BA430 / B400X backplane. It also has a connector which routes to the DSSI bus on the C/D connectors. In the BA430 nothing connects to the M9715 connector as the DSSI bus should be coming from the M7626 KA660 CPU C/D connectors. In the B400X there should be an external bulkhead DSSI connector with a ribbon cable to the M9715 connector. In both the BA430 / B400X there should be another external DSSI connector to the left of slot 12, which is the other end of the DSSI bus. So it sounds like you have a B400X with the M9715 internally cabled to the external bulkhead DSSI connector as usual, and the M7624 KA640 CPU internally cabled to an external bulkhead DSSI connector, and then an external DSSI cable between those two bulkhead connectors. If that is basically how the DSSI things were cabled up, did you also have a DSSI terminator on the bulkhead connector to the left of slot 12? Without checking this myself with a M7624 KA640 CPU you probably get some sort of errors somewhere if the end of the DSSI bus is not terminated. If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having a CPU that is around twice as fast). From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue May 25 19:06:00 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 18:06:00 -0600 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: <60AAD6EB.4070400@charter.net> References: <60A71932.9010000@charter.net> <390f97ff-c3fb-a7ac-129b-2b02ed57ef14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9DFDE.9080300@charter.net> <18c3e4b4-8c96-ee6e-1a20-b759f635ac9f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <60A9FEE4.2020409@charter.net> <60AACA84.1050702@charter.net> <60AAD6EB.4070400@charter.net> Message-ID: <44aa3941-07d3-1bfa-418d-2238d9863aab@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 5/23/21 4:27 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Grant and et al, > ?? There are probably a dozen MBs from 386 to P-4 with some AMD > Opetrons. There are ISA cards, EISA cards, PCI cards, PCI -E cards, and > AGP cards. Serial cards, SCSI cards, Ethernet cards, Arcnet cards, video > cards and video with TV cards, Parallel Cards, IDE cards, Multi-function > with Serial, Parallel, IDE, and Floppy cards, unknown quantity at this > point on the expansion cards. Dozens of SIMMS, DIMMS, 8 bit and 9 bit. > All kinds of speeds. > ?? Parallel cables, serial cables, at least a hundred power cables, > Arcnet cables, video cables, Ethernet cables, telephone cables, audio > cables, internal and external, ide cables, SCSI cables internal and > external, Ethernet hubs and switches, unknown quantity, PATA HD Drives, > SCSI HDDs, Tape drives both SCSI and PATA, CD-Rom drives PATA and maybe > SCSI, Floppy Drives, hundreds of different types of blanks that go on > the back of computer cases, MB adapter plates, an External SCSI Drive > case, Power supplies a Complete Opetron based computer, monitors, > printers, apple computers, a Sony true multisync monitor, UPS', > speakers, internal and external, lots of books, software. It is 30 years > of collecting and repairing computers. That sounds like a very interesting collection. I am definitely interested in /parts/ of it. But, unfortunately I'm not in a position to take on such a purchase ($500+$750) myself at this time. Especially after unexpectedly spending nearly that much on the HVAC this week. :-( > ?? The gold alone is worth more than what I am asking for everything! > rich! I'll take your word for that. My uninformed opinion is that the amount of gold in most electronics is not worth the effort. I'm sure that used to be different than it is now. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 25 19:32:05 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 19:32:05 -0500 Subject: VAXstation 4000 Mice? In-Reply-To: References: <2A76037E-6ABB-4D95-9BAA-EC343BF41086@avanthar.com> <1188129659.805667.1621531325806@mail.yahoo.com> <102474c9-6d2d-6b3a-6b07-243e18bb65ae@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <60AD9705.5050608@pico-systems.com> On 20/05/2021 18:22, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >>> It does indeed need a VSXXX-AA mouse (the round puck) or a I have a VSXXX-AA mouse from an old VAXStation that we added a cable extension to. Does anybody need one? Thanks, Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue May 25 19:38:43 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 18:38:43 -0600 Subject: IBM PC Network In-Reply-To: <111e01d74fb8$dc4f4bc0$94ede340$@gmail.com> References: <762772b8-e7a3-6d28-0e9d-095071bc8577@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20210522133413.015ef82e@asrock> <20210522175014.19acea87@asrock> <3561929a-071f-2aef-99d9-ff1779d8eebd@jbrain.com> <4e87c91f-63ff-613d-c56f-678b84caebcd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <373f4f36-a71c-da3a-0657-edcb87a2655a@jbrain.com> <111e01d74fb8$dc4f4bc0$94ede340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3d84d513-201b-db4b-67d4-d5e734924a21@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Jim, Dave, Thank you for your very interesting emails. On 5/23/21 3:49 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > I would say they are all old enough and obsolete enough to be > considered "in scope" on here. I'm glad to know that. That means that some more of my hobbies are in scope to discuss on cctalk. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue May 25 21:58:02 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 10:58:02 +0800 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry - I misread the post thinking Zane wanted to get raw disk images. For the actual CP/M contents you can use cpmtools: http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/ Cpmtools has disk definitions for the Osborne 1 and Osborne Nuevo/Vixen/4 so it is rather painless. Best regards Tom Hunter On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:38 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Imagedisk is great for making images. > > BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous > owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are > in those images. > > > On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: > > > Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs > with > > a decent floppy controller. > > As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is > > usable for imaging. > > > > Best regards > > Tom Hunter > > > > On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. > >> > >> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per > track, > >> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will > >> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave > >> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can > handle > >> it. > >> > >> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, > >> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh > >> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) > >> > >> > >> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your > >> Catweasel, could do it. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading > >> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? > >>> > >>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. > >> I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I > >> think mine went to Jim Willing). > >>> > >>> Zane > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 25 22:04:17 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 20:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That should presumably do just fine. It is PROBABLY the MFM Double Density format for the Osborne 1. But, more likely than not, that is probably what they have. The early FM Single Density wasn't around for long. 'course next step is for him to find a working machine with a 5.25" drive! (preferably "360K") On Wed, 26 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: > Sorry - I misread the post thinking Zane wanted to get raw disk images. > For the actual CP/M contents you can use cpmtools: > http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/ > Cpmtools has disk definitions for the Osborne 1 and Osborne Nuevo/Vixen/4 > so it is rather painless. > > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:38 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Imagedisk is great for making images. >> >> BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous >> owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are >> in those images. >> >> >> On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: >> >>> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs >> with >>> a decent floppy controller. >>> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is >>> usable for imaging. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Tom Hunter >>> >>> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. >>>> >>>> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per >> track, >>>> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will >>>> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave >>>> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can >> handle >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, >>>> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh >>>> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) >>>> >>>> >>>> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your >>>> Catweasel, could do it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading >>>> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? >>>>> >>>>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. >>>> I do have 5.25??? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I >>>> think mine went to Jim Willing). >>>>> >>>>> Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 25 22:33:24 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 20:33:24 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <54F9B784-FE84-4C7D-BCA8-90C36550684E@avanthar.com> On May 25, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > SII is the built-in DSSI interface. Is it terminated properly? As best as I can tell, especially after taking it partially apart this afternoon, it is. The terminator glows green. > SSC is (iirc) the System Support Chip ... that may be more serious. At this point, I suspect I have a CPU board that is partially dead. > FWIW I think the distinction between the 3300/3400 is the size of the box: the innards are the same. (So same as the 3500/3600 and 3800/3900 and the uV3100-30/40 etc.). I knew that was the case with the 3300/3400, 3500/3600, and 3800/3900. I feel a bit foolish to finally realize this is the case with the MicroVAX 3100-30/40, and others. > Both the uV3300 and the uV3400 use the KA640 board. As Glen points out, there is something strange about this one, as the chassis is even larger than a 3400. > If you plug KA640 into manx you'll find two useful manuals online. Thanks, I?m not sure I?ve ever used the site, though I?ve heard about it for years. I?d found the ?KA640 CPU System Maintenance? manual, I hadn?t found the ?KA640 CPU Module Technical Manual?. Hopefully it has some of the information I?m now searching for. I just pulled out my blue box of fiche (VAX MDS), and verified I have the B400X manual, which isn?t online. I?ll see about borrowing a fiche reader tomorrow. I?ve never bothered to get one, I just borrow my Mom?s portable reader, when I need it. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 26 00:01:39 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 22:01:39 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: <54F9B784-FE84-4C7D-BCA8-90C36550684E@avanthar.com> References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> <54F9B784-FE84-4C7D-BCA8-90C36550684E@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 8:33 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I just pulled out my blue box of fiche (VAX MDS), and verified I have the B400X manual, which isn?t online. I?ll see about borrowing a fiche reader tomorrow. I?ve never bothered to get one, I just borrow my Mom?s portable reader, when I need it. > If you don't already have a copy of this one, it might be helpful: 400 Series Enclosures Illustrated Parts Breakdown, BA440, BA430, R400X, B400X https://vaxhaven.com/images/9/9d/EK-440AB-IP-002.pdf From marvin at west.net Wed May 26 13:12:39 2021 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 11:12:39 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? Message-ID: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I have a number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set up with Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to listmembers), imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW gets closer and you still need these floppies read, let me know and I'll put the machines in with the stash of "junque" to unload :). I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the RICM doesn't have working Osbornes. Marvin > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:37:03 -0700 > From: Zane Healy > To: Fred Cisin , "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? > Message-ID: <13B8E14A-BCAD-4A5B-B81A-7E6E6F373B6B at avanthar.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Yes, we need to be able to access the files. > > I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I?m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I?m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I?m working on, so as to free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects? > > Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition. An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25? drives, but seems more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t been used since ?94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM). > > My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear. > > Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 26 13:23:06 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 11:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 2021, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I have a > number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set up with > Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to listmembers), > imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW gets closer and you > still need these floppies read, let me know and I'll put the machines in with > the stash of "junque" to unload :). > > I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the RICM > doesn't have working Osbornes. Yes, a working Osborne, with a serial port, XMODEM or equivalent, a null modem cable, and a working "current" computer with serial port and XMODEM equivalent should do just fine. Since the task is to copy the FILES, (NOT image the disks), then Teledisk, Imagedisk, etc. might be useful as an intermediate step, but will not do what is needed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 26 16:35:14 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:35:14 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On May 25, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:32 PM Zane Healy wrote: >> >> >> It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM board. What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM and TK70 controller. There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the powersupply that I?d missed seeing. The cables to get to the DSSI connector by the Powersupply are hanging out the front. Basically it?s a cable going from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to the connector next to the power supply. >> > > Sounds like somewhat of a mongrel system. An M7624 KA640 CPU would > typically be found in a 12-slot BA213 as a MicroVAX 3400, or in a > smaller 6-slot BA215 as a MicroVAX 3300. Except for the DSSI cable strangeness, it?s a really nice chassis. Though after a LOT of reading in the last 24 hours, may are right on it being a mongrel. It also explains my confusion as to what it is. :-) https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX This is probably the best of the photo?s of the cabling. https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX/i-vFkfBQ2/A > As far as I can tell a 12-slot B400X is essentially exactly the same > thing as a BA430, where it is a BA430 when used as a VAX 4000-200 with > an M7626 KA660 CPU, and a B400X when used as a Q-bus and storage > expander. Based on the BA430/BA440 manual, it looks like the main thing it?s missing from a BA430 is the SCP with the ?Halt? and ?Restart? buttons (it has the temp and DC indicators), along with the M7638-YA I/O Module. I?m trying to find a description of what the M7638-YA module does. The only place where I seem to find mention of it is in the BA430/BA440 manual. From the manual: Slot 0 - M9715-AA Interface Module Slot 1 - M7638-YA I/O Module Slot 2 - CPU Module Slots 3 - 6 - Memory Modules My system: Slot 0 - M9715-AA Interface Module Slot 1 - KA640 Slot 2 - MS650 (16MB Clearpoint) Slot 3 - M7559 Slot 4 - M9047 Slot 5 - M9047 Slot 6 - 12 - Empty This might be a bit odd, but I don?t think this is a problem, I did try pulling the M7559. Really the diagnostics seem to be indicating to me that I have a bad KA640 board (specifically faults on at least a couple areas. One question, do I need to worry about the batteries on the H3602-SA panel? I can?t imagine that this would be causing any issue. > An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to > the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it > is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes > the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays > without the need for a DSSI cable. I finally found that, in the ?KA660 CPU System Maintenance? manual. What?s interesting is that there is also a 50-pin header on the KA660, and I?m not yet clear on why. :-) > If I remember correctly the DSSI bus is only present on the 50-pin > connector of the M7624 KA640 CPU, not on the C/D connectors, so a DSSI > cable is needed with that CPU. As near as I can tell this is correct. It also explains the strange cabling. > The hidden M9715 board in slot 0 between the CPU slot 1 and the power > supply provides termination power to the internal DSSI and SCSI buses > of the BA430 / B400X backplane. It also has a connector which routes > to the DSSI bus on the C/D connectors. In the BA430 nothing connects > to the M9715 connector as the DSSI bus should be coming from the M7626 > KA660 CPU C/D connectors. In the B400X there should be an external > bulkhead DSSI connector with a ribbon cable to the M9715 connector. In > both the BA430 / B400X there should be another external DSSI connector > to the left of slot 12, which is the other end of the DSSI bus. The DSSI bus goes into a cable on the upper left, that then goes to a connector on the lower left, with the terminator. I?ve photo?s of both. I was interested to learn that there is also SCSI cabling in there. > So it sounds like you have a B400X with the M9715 internally cabled to > the external bulkhead DSSI connector as usual, and the M7624 KA640 CPU > internally cabled to an external bulkhead DSSI connector, and then an > external DSSI cable between those two bulkhead connectors. If that is > basically how the DSSI things were cabled up, did you also have a DSSI > terminator on the bulkhead connector to the left of slot 12? Without > checking this myself with a M7624 KA640 CPU you probably get some sort > of errors somewhere if the end of the DSSI bus is not terminated. As near as I can tell, I have the B400X config for the M9715, and the terminator is in place. > If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of > the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having > a CPU that is around twice as fast). After determining that I don?t need new RAM, this is starting to have a real appeal. I should also be able to take RAM from the MicroVAX 3, and further bump up the system, which is good, as 16MB on a 4000/200 would be really tight. Thanks, Zane From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Wed May 26 17:38:35 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 22:38:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 02:35:32 PM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: [....] two points: 1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work with a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB MS650-BB, or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you want to upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this already.) 2. A few times over the last year, I've read an online service manual detailing how to turn a BA430 into a BA400X. That manual describes pulling the CPU and inserting the DSSI"paddle board" in the first slot. That manual should be. useful in understanding your nonstandard chassis. However, if I recall correctly, I think you need to remove the "paddle board" and put the CPU into the first slot, for bus-termination reasons. The memory modules need to move one slot over to match. I don't know if that will help with your diag failures, but it seems worth trying. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Wed May 26 18:18:05 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 23:18:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <148393320.555983.1622071085134@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 03:38:43 PM PDT, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: Please ignore point 2. Even the KN220 uses an M9715 in the slot between its CVAX I/O board and the power supply. From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 26 21:01:40 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 19:01:40 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> Message-ID: <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> On May 26, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I have a number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set up with Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to listmembers), imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW gets closer and you still need these floppies read, let me know and I'll put the machines in with the stash of "junque" to unload :). > > I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the RICM doesn't have working Osbornes. > > Marvin Both the person with the floppies, and I are in Oregon. I remember that Teledisk buy, thanks, you pointed me in the right direction, and I found backups of my DOS C:\ Drive on my Mac with Teledisk and 22Disk, it looks like they?re both unlicensed copies though. That group purchase was way in March ?99, I managed to find the email from Bruce Lane, that was the HARD part, then I had to find the email attachment. That was easy. If Mail.app would do a better job of searching my email archives, it would have been easy to find the email itself. Zane From marvin at west.net Wed May 26 22:12:56 2021 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 20:12:56 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> I don't remember the limitations of the unregistered Teledisk program, but something in the back of my mind says Dave Dunfields IMD (?) will translate Teledisk programs. Something I've found very useful over the years is the Don Maslin archive (I think also posted on bitsavers.) A quick check shows (at least the ones I looked at) the Osborne protgrams available in Teledisk format as: Name Format Description OS1BASIC SSSD Osborne 1 Basic disk OS1DBASE SSSD dBase II program disk OS1DIAS SSSD Osborne 1 diagnostics disk OS1MCAL SSSD Osborne 1 communications disk OS1MDM7 SSSD Osborne 1 Modem 740 OS1SYSS SSSD Osborne 1 system disk OS1UTLS SSSD Osborne 1 utilities disk OS1WRDST SSSD Osborne 1 Wordstar disk OS1XUTLS SSSD Osborne 1 extended utilities OS1NUEVO SSDD Osborne 1 with DD and 80 col mods OS1SYSD SSDD Osborne 1 system disk (SSDD upgrade) OSE-CPMA SSDD Osborne Executive CP/M 3.0 system disk #1 OSE-CPMB SSDD Osborne Executive CP/M 3.0 system disk #2 OSE-CPMC SSDD Osborne Executive CP/M 3.0 system disk #3 OSE-PSYS SSDD UCSD p-System disk for Osborne Executive OSV-SYS DSDD Osborne Vixen CP/M 2.2 w/ MBasic & Media Master OSV-WS DSDD Osborne Vixen bootable Wordstar & Supercalc 2 OSV-SC2 DSDD Osborne Vixen bootable w/ Supercalc templates OS1DBASE ZIP dBase II v2.3 for Osborne 1 On 5/26/2021 7:01 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > On May 26, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Marvin Johnston > wrote: >> Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I >> have a number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set >> up with Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to >> listmembers), imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW >> gets closer and you still need these floppies read, let me know and >> I'll put the machines in with the stash of "junque" to unload :). >> >> I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the >> RICM doesn't have working Osbornes. >> >> Marvin > > Both the person with the floppies, and I are in Oregon. > > I remember that Teledisk buy, thanks, you pointed me in the right > direction, and I found backups of my DOS C:\ Drive on my Mac with > Teledisk and 22Disk, it looks like they?re both unlicensed copies > though. ?That group purchase was way in March ?99, I managed to find the > email from Bruce Lane, that was the HARD part, then I had to find the > email attachment. ?That was easy. ?If Mail.app would do a better job of > searching my email archives, it would have been easy to find the email > itself. > > Zane > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 26 22:49:17 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 20:49:17 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> Message-ID: <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> On 5/26/21 8:12 PM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > I don't remember the limitations of the unregistered Teledisk program, but something in the back of my mind says Dave Dunfields IMD (?) will > translate Teledisk programs. > > Something I've found very useful over the years is the Don Maslin archive (I think also posted on bitsavers.) A quick check shows (at least > the ones I looked at) the Osborne protgrams available in Teledisk format as: Don's files are here in a better organized form http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/index.html From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 26 23:14:13 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 21:14:13 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DC12E9B-9B29-4225-9242-73916F9B5B6B@avanthar.com> On May 26, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Jonathan Stone wrote: > On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 02:35:32 PM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > [....] > > two points: > > 1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work with a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB MS650-BB, or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you want to upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this already.) THANK YOU! I didn?t realize this. I?m not sure what the modules are in the MicroVAX 3, or how big they are. They?re in a computer rack that requires some effort to access, so I haven?t gotten to them yet. It sounds like I?d best have a look at RAM... > 2. A few times over the last year, I've read an online service manual detailing how to turn a BA430 into a BA400X. > That manual describes pulling the CPU and inserting the DSSI"paddle board" in the first slot. That manual should be. useful in understanding your nonstandard chassis. However, if I recall correctly, I think you need to remove the "paddle board" and put the CPU into the first slot, for bus-termination reasons. The memory modules need to move one slot over to match. I don't know if that will help with your diag failures, but it seems worth trying. Do you happen to know what Manual this is? I?ve spent a lot of the last couple days reading up on the BA430/B400X, and the KA640/KA660. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 27 00:20:18 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 22:20:18 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 2:35 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > One question, do I need to worry about the batteries on the H3602-SA panel? I can?t imagine that this would be causing any issue. > Yes, you do need to worry about the Ni-Cad battery pack on the H3602-SA panel. Remove it and throw it away. If it hasn't started leaking and causing corrosion yet it is only a matter of time before it does. I have removed all of the Ni-Cad battery packs from all of the VAX systems I have. > An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to > the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it > is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes > the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays > without the need for a DSSI cable. > > I finally found that, in the ?KA660 CPU System Maintenance? manual. What?s interesting is that there is also a 50-pin header on the KA660, and I?m not yet clear on why. :-) > The M7626 KA660 VAX 4000-200 was available in BA430 and BA215 enclosures. VAX 4000 Model 200 (BA215) Installation, Order Number EK-432AB-IN-002 https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-2000-01/cd1/VAX/432ABIN2.PDF In the BA430 enclosure the KA660 DSSI bus is connected to the DSSI bus on the backplane through the KA660 C/D connectors, and nothing is connected to the 50-pin DSSI connector on the front of the KA660 module. In the BA215 enclosure the DSSI bus is cable based and connects to the 50-pin DSSI connector on the front of the KA660 module. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu May 27 01:22:00 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 23:22:00 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> On May 26, 2021, at 8:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/26/21 8:12 PM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: >> I don't remember the limitations of the unregistered Teledisk program, but something in the back of my mind says Dave Dunfields IMD (?) will translate Teledisk programs. >> Something I've found very useful over the years is the Don Maslin archive (I think also posted on bitsavers.) A quick check shows (at least the ones I looked at) the Osborne protgrams available in Teledisk format as: > > Don's files are here in a better organized form > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/index.html I thought Don?s archive had been lost, when was it recovered? After looking through that, I?ll have to look into my Kaypro 2, once I check out my 486. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 27 04:31:10 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 02:31:10 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 5/26/21 11:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > I thought Don?s archive had been lost, when was it recovered? Don's daughter donated some of the contents of his storage locker in 2013 to CHM I read several hundred of his floppies, and his pc hard disk. https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 From compoobah at gmail.com Thu May 27 08:09:52 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 06:09:52 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 2021-05-26 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of > the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having > a CPU that is around twice as fast). KA660/BA430 makes for a nice MicroVAX, had one for a while. You can even route the SCSI on the backplane as well, and the sleds pick up whichever you need. Too bad DSSI stuff either isn't more common or DEC found a way to route full cluster over SCSI, that was neat too (and faster than LAVAC for KA660). I seem to recall a highly opinionated VAX/BSD partisan also bestowed on it the rare (in his system) title of "real VAX" In the completely unrelated category my state has signs out asking us to "VAX up" which has me itching to get my VAXes out again. Sadly HP shut down the hobbyist license issuing before they got to my request :(. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu May 27 09:57:38 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 07:57:38 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On May 27, 2021, at 2:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/26/21 11:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> I thought Don?s archive had been lost, when was it recovered? > Don's daughter donated some of the contents of his storage locker in 2013 to CHM > I read several hundred of his floppies, and his pc hard disk. > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 That?s awesome! The last I heard, it looked like this would likely end up in the trash. The timing explains why I wasn?t aware of this, as that is about the time that work took over my life, to the point that even my photography has suffered. For me, Covid-19 has enabled me to do long overdue maintenance on some of my Classic Computer collection. Zane From barythrin at gmail.com Thu May 27 10:20:37 2021 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 10:20:37 -0500 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> Message-ID: We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? I recall a few disks were infected. On Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:57 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On May 27, 2021, at 2:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 5/26/21 11:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > > >> I thought Don?s archive had been lost, when was it recovered? > > Don's daughter donated some of the contents of his storage locker in > 2013 to CHM > > I read several hundred of his floppies, and his pc hard disk. > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 27 11:51:55 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 09:51:55 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> On 5/27/21 8:20 AM, John Herron wrote: > We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? no From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 27 12:40:31 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 10:40:31 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> On 5/27/21 9:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/27/21 8:20 AM, John Herron wrote: >> We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? > > no Viruses? On CP/M-80 disks? When Don and I were exchanging samples, I was unaware of such stuff. Someone want to enlighten me on Z80/8080 viruses on CP/M floppies? (FWIW, I do differentiate "virus" from "malware") Since I'm in Oregon, I'd be happy to extract the files from your images, if you can get them to image form. My recollection was that back in 1986, when I wrote 22Disk, O1 floppies were among the first samples I received (after A1 format, anyway. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 27 13:08:35 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 14:08:35 -0400 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 1:40 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/27/21 9:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/27/21 8:20 AM, John Herron wrote: > >> We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? > > > > no > > Viruses? On CP/M-80 disks? When Don and I were exchanging samples, I > was unaware of such stuff. > > Someone want to enlighten me on Z80/8080 viruses on CP/M floppies? > > (FWIW, I do differentiate "virus" from "malware") > IIRC there were IBM PC format files in there too, and some of them had viruses. I scanned the "aadrvark tape backups" archive in 2014 and found a few. The files were from a C and a D drive created in 1995, 96, 97. I thought the archive was no longer "lost" BIll From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 27 14:21:55 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 12:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 May 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Viruses? On CP/M-80 disks? When Don and I were exchanging samples, I > was unaware of such stuff. > Someone want to enlighten me on Z80/8080 viruses on CP/M floppies? > (FWIW, I do differentiate "virus" from "malware") There were also some MS-DOS disks, and MS-DSOS files. There could even have been some viral MS-DOS boot sector images that wrote to first sector of some non-MS-DOS disks. And, there were probably also some false hits. > Since I'm in Oregon, I'd be happy to extract the files from your images, > if you can get them to image form. And, now you have a perfect solution! Chuck can do it, better than anybody else. As I said, Teledisk and Imagedisk won't do the file transfers, but CAN be an intermediate step, in this case making it possible to get images of the disks to Chuck for him to do the transfers. > My recollection was that back in > 1986, when I wrote 22Disk, O1 floppies were among the first samples I > received (after A1 format, anyway. In 1981, when the Osborne 1 came out, I got some sample disks from it. So, other than TRS80s, which I had, those were also the first samples that I worked with. I manually, a sector at a time, copied some files from those Osborne 1 disks using Superzap on TRS80. THAT was the preliminary success that convinced me that it could be done, and gave the the impetus and confidence to write XenoCopy, in the next few years, after the 5150 came out. (5150 came out August 11, 1981, but it took me 5 months to get one) BUT, the 5150 couldn't do FM Single Density, so the PC-DOS version of XenoCopy didn't get an Osborne format until the MFM Double Density upgrade for the Osborne 1 came out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 27 15:47:09 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 13:47:09 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <70efcdf2-9418-192d-fa47-1024aef0a6ed@sydex.com> On 5/27/21 12:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > In 1981, when the Osborne 1 came out, I got some sample disks from it. > So, other than TRS80s, which I had, those were also the first samples > that I worked with.? I manually, a sector at a time, copied some files > from those Osborne 1 disks using Superzap on TRS80.? THAT was the > preliminary success that convinced me that it could be done, and gave > the the impetus and confidence to write XenoCopy, in the next few years, > after the 5150 came out.? (5150 came out August 11, 1981, but it took me > 5 months to get one)?? BUT, the 5150 couldn't do FM Single Density, so > the PC-DOS version of XenoCopy didn't get an Osborne format until the > MFM Double Density upgrade for the Osborne 1 came out. I'd been cutting floppy controller code since about 1975; the weirdness of the IBM PC design really made for some head-scratching. Sometime in the 5150/5160 days, I published instructions on how to modify a PC floppy controller that used the 765 with a WD926 data separator. It was quite simple--for some unknown reason, both of the clock rate select lines were hard-wired. Getting FM support was mostly a matter of lifting one of those lines and running a jumper to the MFM/FM output on the 765. But then IBM and clones did the same sort of thing with the parallel port adapter. Changing one to bidirectional (and curiously PS/2-compatible) was mostly a matter of lifting the output enable line on an IC and tying it an unused bit in the control port. Sometimes I wonder if IBM did this sort of stuff intentionally. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 27 15:50:46 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 13:50:46 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:38 PM Jonathan Stone wrote: > > two points: > > 1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work with a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB MS650-BB, or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you want to upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this already.) > I've been wrong about that for several years. I have always assumed that an M7621 MS650-AA 8MB memory board was compatible with all of the M7620 KA650, M7624 KA640, M7625 KA655, and M7626 KA660 CPUs. I didn't realize until now that an M7621 MS650-AA 8MB memory board is only compatible with the M7620 KA650 and M7624 KA640 CPUs, and the M7625 KA655 and M7626 KA660 CPUs are only compatible with the M7622 MS650-BA 16MB memory board (or the less common MS650-BB 8MB version of the M7622). Unless I am also wrong about this, the M7622 MS650-B memory boards are compatible with all of the M7620 KA650, M7624 KA640, M7625 KA655, and M7626 KA660 CPUs. KA655 CPU System Maintenance, Order Number EK-306AA-MG-001 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/655/EK-306A-MG-001_655Mnt_Mar89.pdf Page 1-4 (Page 15 of the PDF) "NOTE: The KA655 CPU supports only the MS650-BA (16 Mbyte) memory module. The MS650-AA (8 Mbyte) is not supported because of its slower access speed." KA660 CPU System Maintenance, Order Number EK-398AA-MM-001 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/4000/EK-398AA-MM-001_KA660_CPU_System_Maintenance_Dec90.pdf Page 1-10 (Page 20 of the PDF) "1.4 MS650-Bn Memory Modules The MS650-BA and MS650-BB memory modules are quad-height, Q22-bus modules. Timing of the MS650-BA (16 MBytes) and MS650-BB (8 MBytes) modules is dependent upon the KA660 clock speed and CMCTL. The MS650-AA memory module may not be used with the KA660 system CPU." From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 27 17:25:43 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 15:25:43 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 2:35 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > Except for the DSSI cable strangeness, it?s a really nice chassis. Though after a LOT of reading in the last 24 hours, may are right on it being a mongrel. It also explains my confusion as to what it is. :-) > > https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX > > This is probably the best of the photo?s of the cabling. > > https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX/i-vFkfBQ2/A The 50-pin round cable that plugs into the M7624 KA640 CPU on one end and into the flat 50-pin ribbon cable on the other end, and the 50-pin ribbon cable with the two IDC connectors in the middle and the DSSI bulkhead connector on the other end might be the internal DSSI cabling removed from a BA215 enclosure. Maybe what happened is that someone scraped a MicroVAX 3300 and pulled the M7624 KA640 CPU and internal DSSI cabling out of the BA215 enclosure, and transplanted those into the B400X enclosure, plus added the external DSSI cable to connect the transplanted BA215 enclosure DSSI cabling up to the B400X M9715 DSSI bulkhead connector. Maybe someone here has a spare M7626 KA660 CPU that they could give you a good deal on to replace your possibly dead M7624 KA640 CPU, which would clean up the DSSI cabling at the same time. I don't think I have more M7626 KA660 CPUs on hand myself than BA215/BA430 enclosures to use with them. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 27 18:17:05 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 16:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: <70efcdf2-9418-192d-fa47-1024aef0a6ed@sydex.com> References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> <70efcdf2-9418-192d-fa47-1024aef0a6ed@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 May 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'd been cutting floppy controller code since about 1975; the weirdness > of the IBM PC design really made for some head-scratching. I did some FORTRAN since 1967, but until the TRS80, I couldn't own a computer, and hardly ever got a chance to touch them, and was strictly limited on what I was even allowed to do. So, I never talked to the FDC until about 1980. (when I found Bill Barden's paper about talking to the TRS80 FDC) > Sometime in the 5150/5160 days, I published instructions on how to > modify a PC floppy controller that used the 765 with a WD926 data > separator. It was quite simple--for some unknown reason, both of the > clock rate select lines were hard-wired. Getting FM support was mostly > a matter of lifting one of those lines and running a jumper to the > MFM/FM output on the 765. > But then IBM and clones did the same sort of thing with the parallel > port adapter. Changing one to bidirectional (and curiously > PS/2-compatible) was mostly a matter of lifting the output enable line > on an IC and tying it an unused bit in the control port. > > Sometimes I wonder if IBM did this sort of stuff intentionally. I suspect that it was intentional, but through ignorance. "Should we have FM?" "Should we make the printer port bi-directional?" To which some IBM manager with little or no technical expertise asked, "Do we NEED to?" and, assuming that it would cost, rejected the "UNNECESSARY expenditures" for the extra capabilities. I modified a PC parallel port, and played around with it. My goal, XenoComm Parallel, was NOT to use it with software on both machines. I had run into a few machines that had a Centonics port, but not RS232, and disk formats that the PC FDC couldn't handle. (such as TRS80 mdel 1, Sirius 9000, Vector Graphics, etc.), I wanted to connect their parallel printer port to a PC, tell the alien machine to PRINT its word processor files, and have the PC emulate a printer to the alien machine, but capture and save what the alien machine "printed". Unfortunately, I found that many of them had a very narrow, below spec strobe. I wasn't able to make a tight enough loop on minimal PCs, so I had to add hardware to extend the pulse. I had hoped that eventually, people would have the bi-directional ports, and that all that I would have to supply was software and a simple dumb cable, with appropriate pin swapping FROM Centronics female to DB25 male, that as a dongle on the PC would let any Centronics capable computer plug to the PC instead of a printer. And, at Comdex, I found it extremely difficult to explain the concept to people who either had NO need for data from such machines, or refused to understand that existing PC TO PC parallel port transfer programs used special software, not just a printer driver, on the sending machine. Since Laplink, etc. PUT their own software onto the other PC, why couldn't they use Laplink to PUT the special software onto the Vector Graphic? So, I concluded that I did not have a market for making the PC emulate a printer for getting alien machines to PRINT to the PC, for disk formats that the PC could not handle. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 27 18:49:49 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 16:49:49 -0700 Subject: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <92d451ca-eba7-4e83-c072-076b98bf8c2b@west.net> <3B3C7A85-FDAA-4967-BADB-DC3DBBF85366@avanthar.com> <82337c7b-bd43-c883-beb7-f0f0e20f47ac@west.net> <7b7de8c2-a016-14c7-7acf-844942b7fa45@bitsavers.org> <6CCF6B55-2A60-4FE1-A7D5-FC0F5B28D6B5@avanthar.com> <7a42c58f-2b0d-ee3a-7cc7-5577d0a900e9@bitsavers.org> <18e503c3-1948-05b4-31d1-4ff50969b13b@sydex.com> <70efcdf2-9418-192d-fa47-1024aef0a6ed@sydex.com> Message-ID: <130253d3-aaec-3ec0-111d-9c1df6377967@sydex.com> On 5/27/21 4:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I modified a PC parallel port, and played around with it. My goal, > XenoComm Parallel, was NOT to use it with software on both machines. I > had run into a few machines that had a Centonics port, but not RS232, > and disk formats that the PC FDC couldn't handle. (such as TRS80 mdel 1, > Sirius 9000, Vector Graphics, etc.), I wanted to connect their parallel > printer port to a PC, tell the alien machine to PRINT its word processor > files, and have the PC emulate a printer to the alien machine, but > capture and save what the alien machine "printed". >From about 1988 to 2000 I marketed a very successful product to the law enforcement community. One of the facets of it was the ability to transfer data from a subject machine via serial or parallel connection. We could do either nibble-or-8 bit transfers, but nibble turned out to be the most used. Lots of error checking and waiting for lines to settle, but, like laplink and interserver, it could be done quite well and it was faster than serial. I seem to recall that the Victor 9000 had a bidirectional parallel interface that could also double as a GPIB interface. Sometime around 1987, I wrote a parallel port TSR that could drive slow-speed GPIB devices. I wrote it out of necessity--I needed to make a presentation that involved color charts and the only plotter I could borrow was the HP 6-pen plotter with GPIB interface. At the time, I was using SuperCalc, which supported the parallel version of the plotter, so I wrote a TSR to hook the INT 17H BIOS interrupt and directed the messages through a printer port connected as a GPIB interface. That one worked with the legacy PC printer port. Later, I modified the port to be bidirectional and used it with an HP GPIB voltmeter. I know the thing was discussed briefly in Nuts'n'Volts; it may still be in the SIMTEL20 archive. Years ago and far away... --Chuck From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Thu May 27 19:20:49 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 00:20:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: MicroVAX 3300/3400 In-Reply-To: <4DC12E9B-9B29-4225-9242-73916F9B5B6B@avanthar.com> References: <59645303-F991-44D4-9F3F-00EDA0A8B86D@avanthar.com> <1147367.562346.1622068715050@mail.yahoo.com> <4DC12E9B-9B29-4225-9242-73916F9B5B6B@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <247801166.1029628.1622161249844@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 09:14:16 PM PDT, Zane Healy wrote: [[ reference to service manual for converting BA400 to BA400X ]] >Do you happen to know what Manual this is?? I?ve spent a lot of the last couple days reading up on the BA430/B400X, and the :KA640/KA660. I looked for it before posting, and again today. I can't find it. If I do, I'll certainly let you know. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 28 09:02:44 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 10:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 documentation Message-ID: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I have images of two different pieces of DEC documentation for the H960 series of racks/cabinets (the H950 is the bare rack; the H960 is the rack complete with various appurtenances such as side panel, stabilizer feet, etc). I had a request for them, so I've put them online. They are: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DEC_cabinets1.jpg http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DEC_cabinets2.jpg The entry in the Direct Sales Catalog which covers them; includes illustrated breakdowns, and the DEC part numbers for everything. http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual1.jpg http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual2.jpg http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual3.jpg http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual4.jpg http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual5.jpg The Assembly Guide; it shows in detail how all the bits go together (includes all the captive nuts, bolts, etc). Noel From mbbrutman at brutman.com Fri May 28 15:34:53 2021 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 13:34:53 -0700 Subject: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Randy, I'm a little late to the party, but to get a Compaq connected to Ethernet look for the following: - 8 bit: NE1000, 3Com 3C503, WD or SMC 8003 series -16 bit in an 8 bit slot: Some NE2000 clones, Intel 8/16 - 16 bit cards: many choices There are a lot of choices for networking code, but a lot of it is old and out of date. (FTP clients that don't support PASSIVE connections are not terribly useful anymore.) I wrote (and still maintain) mTCP ( http://www.brutman.com/mTCP/mTCP.html) which gives you the following: DHCP, Ping, Netcat (TCP only), an IRC client, an FTP client, an FTP server, a Simple NTP client, a Telnet client, etc. All of this is supported and runs well on 8088 class machines. mTCP uses the packet driver specification to talk to the Ethernet card, so the card has to have an appropriate driver. (There are shims that allow you to use ODI drivers and packet drivers that fake Ethernet over SLIP or PPP.) Mike From chris at groessler.org Fri May 28 19:11:37 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 02:11:37 +0200 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer Message-ID: Hi all, what are the word processing options for a daisy wheel printer? I would like to be able to write "bold face" (double stroke) and underline some parts. I guess there aren't any other capabilities to exploit on a daisy wheel printer. Operating system is unixish (Linux/NetBSD/FreeBSD). MS-DOS would work, too. Maybe something like (g|t)roff? Is there something you'd recommend? regards, chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 19:40:04 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 17:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some characters that might not otherwise be available could be done with over-strike, such as an accent mark (When you apply for a job, do you send a RESUME?") or the tilde over N (There is an exit off of 280 that is incorrectly labelled "LA CANADA road") The en~e character is recognized as a normal letter in Spanish. Although there isn't a LOT of use for it, overstrike with hyphens is sometimes used to indicate an informal edit or redaction. Some daisy wheel printers, even some models of HiType I, such as DTC-300, had micro-spacing. Besides PROPORTIONAL spacing, You could print a period, move a TINY amount, print another period, and be able to draw or plot. (Or would that be PLOD? And you thought that a Calcomp Plodder was slow!)) Some daisy wheels had reinfoced period, underline and hyphen to prevent premature wear. Wordstar had some "drivers" for proportional spacing. I kinda doubt that there are practical Windoze drivers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Sat, 29 May 2021, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > what are the word processing options for a daisy wheel printer? > > I would like to be able to write "bold face" (double stroke) and underline > some parts. I guess there aren't any other capabilities to exploit on a daisy > wheel printer. > > Operating system is unixish (Linux/NetBSD/FreeBSD). MS-DOS would work, too. > > Maybe something like (g|t)roff? > > Is there something you'd recommend? > > regards, > chris From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 21:19:18 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 19:19:18 -0700 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a9d5e0a-5bdc-024d-0c1c-b92639cb0b68@sydex.com> On 5/28/21 5:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Some characters that might not otherwise be available could be done with > over-strike, such as an accent mark (When you apply for a job, do you > send a RESUME?") or the tilde over N (There is an exit off of 280 that > is incorrectly labelled "LA CANADA road")? The en~e character is > recognized as a normal letter in Spanish. > > Although there isn't a LOT of use for it, overstrike with hyphens is > sometimes used to indicate an informal edit or redaction. > > Some daisy wheel printers, even some models of HiType I, such as > DTC-300, had micro-spacing. > Besides PROPORTIONAL spacing, You could print a period, move a TINY > amount, print another period, and be able to draw or plot. (Or would > that be PLOD?? And you thought that a Calcomp Plodder was slow!)) > Some daisy wheels had reinfoced period, underline and hyphen to prevent > premature wear. I used a Hitype I with 12 bit OEM interface and a 2P+S S100 card back in the day. Since every bit of movement was under control of the program driving the interface, you could do not only PS with bidirectional "smart" positioning, but also plotting. I probably have my drivers for 8080 on an 8" disk somewhere. ISTR after nearly 50 years, that the movement granularity was about 1/48 of an inch. The power supply for that thing was separate and had 3 noisy fans. After the success of the Diablo Hitype models, other outfits had similar products. I think I have one of NEC Spinwriters tucked away somewhere, which used not a typewheel, but cup-shaped "thimble". Early one, Qume was a major competitor of Diablo--no surprise, since a fair number of the original staff fled Diablo after the Xerox purchase. Of course, daisywheel technology took over the typewriter market after the original patents had lapsed. IBM used them extensively on their typewriters, as did Brother. "Fully formed characters" as opposed to dot-matrix was a big thing back then. --Chuck From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat May 29 01:29:17 2021 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 08:29:17 +0200 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/05/21 2:40 am, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > Wordstar had some "drivers" for proportional spacing. > I kinda doubt that there are practical Windoze drivers. Yes. I seem to recall that Wordstar had fairly sophisticated support for printers, though you would probably still have to configure the basic Escape sequences unless you're lucky enough to find the set for your printer. https://www.wordstar.org/index.php/wsdos-support/wsdos-printing/126-wordstar-for-dos-version-4-supported-printers Note - double-strike bold doesn't work so well with a film ribbon. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 29 02:26:43 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 00:26:43 -0700 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51f745db-8d6a-ac65-e4a8-8d9db5ad800d@sydex.com> On 5/28/21 11:29 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: > On 29/05/21 2:40 am, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: >> Wordstar had some "drivers" for proportional spacing. >> I kinda doubt that there are practical Windoze drivers. > > Yes. I seem to recall that Wordstar had fairly sophisticated support for > printers, though you would probably still have to configure the basic > Escape sequences unless you're lucky enough to find the set for your > printer. CP/M Wordstar 3.3 could do proportional spacing, but it was broken as released. For a few bucks, a third party would send patches and directions for use. Believe it or not, I still have that stuff. Wordstar 4.0 for CP/M-80 was much improved; I suspect it was altogether new code (possibly from New word?). I have that one also, still in the box. When MSDOS rolled around, the game for WS changed dramatically. I think that it went as far as WS 7 (I think I have an unopened box of that too). The problem was that the competition (Word Perfect, then MS Word) was just so much more capable. I used Wordstar for a long time, starting with version 0.90. I briefly moved sideways to Wordstar 2000. Not a bad product, but totally unlike standard WS, and too late to the party--I used it for documentation for a few years. I pretty much left the world of daisywheel printers when the first HP Laserjet broke onto the scene. Beautiful output--and so much faster and quieter! --Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat May 29 02:38:18 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 08:38:18 +0100 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: <51f745db-8d6a-ac65-e4a8-8d9db5ad800d@sydex.com> References: <51f745db-8d6a-ac65-e4a8-8d9db5ad800d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 8:26 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I pretty much left the world of daisywheel printers when the first HP > Laserjet broke onto the scene. Beautiful output--and so much faster > and quieter! ) Agreed, although I'd love an HP9871 for my HP9830, just to see that mechanism work (it has a pair of DC motors on the main chassis, if they rotate in the same direction it spins the daisywheel, if they rotate in opposite directions it moves the carriage. Or maybe the other way round). I do have the right interface for the HP9830. Getting back to an earlier message, the 'Apple Plot' program for the Apple ][ included a high-res graphics screen dump program to the Qume Sprint 5. It only used the full stop (period) character, moved the carriage and paper using the proportional spacing commands, and made a heck of racket. I have a printer which consists of a Diablo 630 chassis with a dot matrix head. A Sanders 700. It takes little ROM cartridges for the fonts (alas no downloadable fonts sor graphics mode) and does up to 8 passes to produce almost daisywheel quality output. I also have the older Sanders 12/7 which takes sets of EPROMs for the fonts and is I think better made, but is otherwise similar to the user. Internally they are very different, the 12/7 has a single Z80 processor, DMA channels for data input and printhead output and a state machine to actually control the printhead. The 700 has the Z80 processor too, but with a Z8 for data input and another Z8 to fire the printhead. -tony > > --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 29 09:58:26 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 10:58:26 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale Message-ID: Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. Offers? Off list... -- Will From chris at groessler.org Sat May 29 10:23:08 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 17:23:08 +0200 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <073d791f-d7f8-1c25-f7c6-7fc234ad229e@groessler.org> On 5/29/21 2:11 AM, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > > Operating system is unixish (Linux/NetBSD/FreeBSD). MS-DOS would work, > too. > > Maybe something like (g|t)roff? > Ok, so Wordstar should work. I think I have version 5 or 6 for DOS. Were there Unix versions of WS? Or any other solution with Unix? I prefer the ability to log in from remote. regards, chris From rlloken at telus.net Sat May 29 10:47:08 2021 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 09:47:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: <073d791f-d7f8-1c25-f7c6-7fc234ad229e@groessler.org> References: <073d791f-d7f8-1c25-f7c6-7fc234ad229e@groessler.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 2021, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > Were there Unix versions of WS? Or any other solution with Unix? I prefer > the ability to log in from remote. I think Gnu troff and/or ghostscript should have a suitable driver. Old drivers are rarely deleted even years after they fall out of popularity. I still have a Xerox 1750 daisy wheel printer in the attic that I brought home from work when the newly arrived Imagen laser printer and ditroff made the 1750 unfashionable. At work we used TROFF to drive the 1750 for letter quality output, the bulk of the printing was done with two Data Printer Corporations Chaintrain printers (for some reason I have the DPC maintenance manuals here at home) which were certainly not letter quality. After I brought the 1750 home I ran it with troff on my BSDi Unix box for a number of years and drove it with Wordstar 4.0 on my TRS-80 Model II CP/M. It was a good letter quality printer but I never tried any clever graphics or anything like that even though it was documented in the 1750 manual. The 1750 was retired after I broke a petal off my last surviving Courier 10 print wheel and could not find any replacements. I replaced the 1750 with a Deskjet 500 that I also fished out of the trash at work and ran for ten years without any major repairs but I had retired the TRS80 by the time I got the DeskJet 500 so I never tried to make it work with WordStar. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 29 11:21:18 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 09:21:18 -0700 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: <51f745db-8d6a-ac65-e4a8-8d9db5ad800d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <519ca38a-cc41-2c5d-9620-cf60cfae2110@sydex.com> On 5/29/21 12:38 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a printer which consists of a Diablo 630 chassis with a dot > matrix head. A Sanders 700. It takes little ROM cartridges for the > fonts (alas no downloadable fonts sor graphics mode) and does up to 8 > passes to produce almost daisywheel quality output. I also have the > older Sanders 12/7 which takes sets of EPROMs for the fonts and is I > think better made, but is otherwise similar to the user. Internally > they are very different, the 12/7 has a single Z80 processor, DMA > channels for data input and printhead output and a state machine to > actually control the printhead. The 700 has the Z80 processor too, but > with a Z8 for data input and another Z8 to fire the printhead. I had several Diablo emigrees as co-workers in one job I held. One of the things they brought along was a Diablo dot-matrix printer. It used three (!) Rockwell PPS8 MPUs, had a carriage motor that could take your arm off, tractor feed only and was screamingly loud. Interface was Centronics parallel. I've never seen another one, so I can't even comment on the model number, if there was one. This was about 1976 or so. It was used as a backup printer when the Teletype Dataspeed 40 line printer was otherwise occupied. Then there were the multipass NLQ dot matrix setups with downloadable fonts. I still have a couple of those. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 29 11:37:16 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 16:37:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098895695.1549317.1622306236199@mail.yahoo.com> Smecc has an extra one of these? DEC labs... May be missing patch cords but in nice shape we would sell or trade... I think bitsavers? or one of the other has manual? Off list. Please Here is history? on Kab unit and interesting commentary? of manual writer! https://archive.org/details/TNM_Digital_Equipment_Corp_-_Digital_Logic_Labora_20170629_0375Reviewer:?JohnLH?-?favoritefavoritefavoritefavoritefavorite?- February 5, 2018 Subject:?Some Thoughts from the AuthorAlmost 50 years after I designed the Digital Equipment H500 Computer Lab and wrote the Computer Lab Workbook, it?s incredible to see a newly-scanned copy of the workbook on?archive.org. Of course it?s in good company with copies of many of the other hardware and software handbooks that DEC (Digital Equipment Corp) published in great abundance. Even though I?m the most biased reviewer ever for this book, I?ll boldly start off the reviews by giving it 5 stars. Since most of the folks looking at this book may have used a DEC Computer Lab at some point in their technical education, here?s a little relevant DEC history that you might find interesting. In the mid 60?s DEC brought out a logic training system called the Logic Lab that used the discrete component logic modules that at the time were the building blocks of all computers. The Logic Lab was very flexible and powerful. In fact, DEC engineers used multiple Logic Labs to prototype the first PDP 8S computer. The biggest problem with that prototype was suppressing the electrical noise associated with long leads and multiple Logic Lab chassis ? eventually though it worked. By the late 60?s integrated circuit logic devices had displaced discrete device logic modules as computer building blocks. Add to that a Logic Lab price of over $2,000 that was well above the budget of many tech schools and universities ? it was time for a replacement product. Denny Doyle, the President of DEC Canada, wanted a locally developed and manufactured product to expand the role of the Canadian subsidiary. About that time, I joined Digital Equipment Canada as a newly minted electrical engineer. Shortly after I was tasked with designing and writing a book to support an affordable logic training device for the technical education market based on the then popular TTL (Transistor-Transistor Logic) integrated circuits. The result was the H500 Computer Lab manufactured by Digital Canada that sold for $400 back in the late 60?s through the early 80?s. What follows are a few Computer Lab facts: About 5000 Computer Labs were built over the life of the product. Most were sold to the technical education market to be used as the practical lab part of a course on computer logic. Over the usable life of the product, my guess is that an average of 20 students (or more) would get to use each Computer Lab. That translates to a worldwide population of about 100,000+ technicians and engineers who gained their first practical lab experience with digital logic on a Computer Lab. The Computer Lab Workbook was key to the success of the product. It was an inexpensive paperback handbook that DEC printed in volume and freely distributed for product promotion (along with many other DEC handbooks). The book was a ready-to-use 200 hour+ lab course for computer logic ? that clearly appealed to educators. The first printing of the book, 100,000 copies, was gone quickly in about a year. A second printing of 100,000 was used up much more slowly and lasted for the remainder of the product life. DEC sold a separate Computer Lab Teacher?s Guide written by Larry DeAngelo. It had answers to questions in the Computer Lab Work along with additional experiments and supporting material. Even almost 50 years after they were manufactured, Computer Labs still regularly appear for sale on EBay.com. Interestingly surfing the web recently someone mentioned a still in service Computer Lab as recently as 2006 in Switzerland. Got a story about cutting your digital teeth on a Computer Lab? Add it here. John L Hughes Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 7:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. Offers? Off list... -- Will From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 29 12:06:01 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 17:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <1098895695.1549317.1622306236199@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1098895695.1549317.1622306236199@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <946697039.1544789.1622307961415@mail.yahoo.com> Here is Lab book correct linkhttps://archive.org/search.php?query=H500+logic Enjoy!ED# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 9:37 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Smecc has an extra one of these? DEC labs... May be missing patch cords but in nice shape we would sell or trade... I think bitsavers? or one of the other has manual? Off list. Please Here is history? on Kab unit and interesting commentary? of manual writer! https://archive.org/details/TNM_Digital_Equipment_Corp_-_Digital_Logic_Labora_20170629_0375Reviewer:?JohnLH?-?favoritefavoritefavoritefavoritefavorite?- February 5, 2018 Subject:?Some Thoughts from the AuthorAlmost 50 years after I designed the Digital Equipment H500 Computer Lab and wrote the Computer Lab Workbook, it?s incredible to see a newly-scanned copy of the workbook on?archive.org. Of course it?s in good company with copies of many of the other hardware and software handbooks that DEC (Digital Equipment Corp) published in great abundance. Even though I?m the most biased reviewer ever for this book, I?ll boldly start off the reviews by giving it 5 stars. Since most of the folks looking at this book may have used a DEC Computer Lab at some point in their technical education, here?s a little relevant DEC history that you might find interesting. In the mid 60?s DEC brought out a logic training system called the Logic Lab that used the discrete component logic modules that at the time were the building blocks of all computers. The Logic Lab was very flexible and powerful. In fact, DEC engineers used multiple Logic Labs to prototype the first PDP 8S computer. The biggest problem with that prototype was suppressing the electrical noise associated with long leads and multiple Logic Lab chassis ? eventually though it worked. By the late 60?s integrated circuit logic devices had displaced discrete device logic modules as computer building blocks. Add to that a Logic Lab price of over $2,000 that was well above the budget of many tech schools and universities ? it was time for a replacement product. Denny Doyle, the President of DEC Canada, wanted a locally developed and manufactured product to expand the role of the Canadian subsidiary. About that time, I joined Digital Equipment Canada as a newly minted electrical engineer. Shortly after I was tasked with designing and writing a book to support an affordable logic training device for the technical education market based on the then popular TTL (Transistor-Transistor Logic) integrated circuits. The result was the H500 Computer Lab manufactured by Digital Canada that sold for $400 back in the late 60?s through the early 80?s. What follows are a few Computer Lab facts: About 5000 Computer Labs were built over the life of the product. Most were sold to the technical education market to be used as the practical lab part of a course on computer logic. Over the usable life of the product, my guess is that an average of 20 students (or more) would get to use each Computer Lab. That translates to a worldwide population of about 100,000+ technicians and engineers who gained their first practical lab experience with digital logic on a Computer Lab. The Computer Lab Workbook was key to the success of the product. It was an inexpensive paperback handbook that DEC printed in volume and freely distributed for product promotion (along with many other DEC handbooks). The book was a ready-to-use 200 hour+ lab course for computer logic ? that clearly appealed to educators. The first printing of the book, 100,000 copies, was gone quickly in about a year. A second printing of 100,000 was used up much more slowly and lasted for the remainder of the product life. DEC sold a separate Computer Lab Teacher?s Guide written by Larry DeAngelo. It had answers to questions in the Computer Lab Work along with additional experiments and supporting material. Even almost 50 years after they were manufactured, Computer Labs still regularly appear for sale on EBay.com. Interestingly surfing the web recently someone mentioned a still in service Computer Lab as recently as 2006 in Switzerland. Got a story about cutting your digital teeth on a Computer Lab? Add it here. John L Hughes Sent from the all new AOL app for Android========Here is Lab book correct linkhttps://archive.org/search.php?query=H500+logic Enjoy!ED# ?================= ? On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 7:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:? Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. Offers? Off list... -- Will ??===?=====?============= ?Here is Lab book correct link https://archive.org/search.php?query=H500+logic Enjoy!ED# From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat May 29 12:42:16 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 10:42:16 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11f87294-cd0e-e81d-6ec5-aa62b2e959d4@jwsss.com> Manual is here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/handbooks/Digital_Computer_Lab_Workbook_1969.pdf On 5/29/2021 7:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. > > Offers? Off list... > > -- > Will > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat May 29 12:54:04 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 10:54:04 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9245D776-7DCB-45C1-8E39-F066F1D98B0B@shaw.ca> On 2021-May-29, at 7:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. > > Offers? Off list... As I am aware of it Discord is a software package. What does "Over on the Discord" mean? Or, what Discord server?, where? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 29 12:59:27 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 13:59:27 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <9245D776-7DCB-45C1-8E39-F066F1D98B0B@shaw.ca> References: <9245D776-7DCB-45C1-8E39-F066F1D98B0B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: The ClassicCMP Discord. -- Will On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 1:54 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-May-29, at 7:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. > > > > Offers? Off list... > > > As I am aware of it Discord is a software package. > > What does "Over on the Discord" mean? > Or, what Discord server?, where? > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 29 14:08:30 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 19:08:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: <9245D776-7DCB-45C1-8E39-F066F1D98B0B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <921491415.1551819.1622315310923@mail.yahoo.com> Whatever that is? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:59 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: The ClassicCMP Discord. -- Will On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 1:54 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-May-29, at 7:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. > > > > Offers? Off list... > > > As I am aware of it Discord is a software package. > > What does "Over on the Discord" mean? > Or, what Discord server?, where? > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 29 19:40:48 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 20:40:48 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. I already have one, but it has no wires and a reasonable substitute has not come to light despite occasional discussions over the past 20 years. But they are really cool. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 29 19:58:29 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 20:58:29 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who's idea was the mini-banana anyway? I do not think it was General Radio. Pomona? I recently came across some dual mini banana adapters (for someone without correct context that would be very confusing) but they have no makers marks. Sort of like GenRad 274 stuff but half sized in every dimension. -- Will -- Will On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 8:41 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM William Donzelli via cctalk > wrote: > > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. > > I already have one, but it has no wires and a reasonable substitute > has not come to light despite occasional discussions over the past 20 > years. > > But they are really cool. > > -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 29 20:12:14 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 01:12:14 +0000 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: <073d791f-d7f8-1c25-f7c6-7fc234ad229e@groessler.org>, Message-ID: Hi Chris I had a Brother daisy wheel that would do a single step of the stepper and a second strike, for bold. You need to have the right esc sequence. Just about every printer is different until HP had a standard( pscl5 as I recall ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Richard Loken via cctalk Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2021 8:47 AM To: Christian Groessler ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: how to make use of daisy wheel printer On Sat, 29 May 2021, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > Were there Unix versions of WS? Or any other solution with Unix? I prefer > the ability to log in from remote. I think Gnu troff and/or ghostscript should have a suitable driver. Old drivers are rarely deleted even years after they fall out of popularity. I still have a Xerox 1750 daisy wheel printer in the attic that I brought home from work when the newly arrived Imagen laser printer and ditroff made the 1750 unfashionable. At work we used TROFF to drive the 1750 for letter quality output, the bulk of the printing was done with two Data Printer Corporations Chaintrain printers (for some reason I have the DPC maintenance manuals here at home) which were certainly not letter quality. After I brought the 1750 home I ran it with troff on my BSDi Unix box for a number of years and drove it with Wordstar 4.0 on my TRS-80 Model II CP/M. It was a good letter quality printer but I never tried any clever graphics or anything like that even though it was documented in the 1750 manual. The 1750 was retired after I broke a petal off my last surviving Courier 10 print wheel and could not find any replacements. I replaced the 1750 with a Deskjet 500 that I also fished out of the trash at work and ran for ten years without any major repairs but I had retired the TRS80 by the time I got the DeskJet 500 so I never tried to make it work with WordStar. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 29 20:42:07 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 18:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: <073d791f-d7f8-1c25-f7c6-7fc234ad229e@groessler.org>, Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I had a Brother daisy wheel that would do a single step of the stepper > and a second strike, for bold. You need to have the right esc sequence. > Just about every printer is different until HP had a standard( pscl5 as > I recall ). Prior to the HP PCL (Printer Command Language), quite a few printers put in Epson [MX80] emulation. HP introduced PCL in 1984. When they introduced the LaserJet["Minus"] (still in 1984) they were up to PCL 3. LaserJet PLUS got PCL 4. That remained active for a very long time. "Intellifont" font scaling was in PCL 5 (for LaserJet III?) PCL 6 (1995?) was optimized for Windows. In terms of "backwards compatability", EVERY subsequent operating system SHOULD be capable of working with all prior drivers, albeit without whatever new features that have been added. And, EVERY new[er] model or printer SHOULD be capable of working with the older printer drivers, albeit without whatever new features that have been added. When you upgrade your hardware, OR upgrade your software, you SHOULD be able to immediately function with your existing drivers, unless/until you get newer drivers that include the added features. I remember the "techs" at the college computer lab bought a new "all in one" HP "OfficeJet"? printer and a new version of Windows (XP?), and were "UNABLE to obtain drivers"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat May 29 21:42:59 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 22:42:59 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any way to get a Discord invite? On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. > > Offers? Off list... > > -- > Will > From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 29 23:02:55 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 21:02:55 -0700 Subject: how to make use of daisy wheel printer In-Reply-To: References: <073d791f-d7f8-1c25-f7c6-7fc234ad229e@groessler.org> Message-ID: <432f6398-f518-1007-511a-25e942c345e5@sydex.com> On 5/29/21 6:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 30 May 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I had a Brother daisy wheel that would do a single step of the stepper >> and a second strike, for bold. You need to have the right esc >> sequence. Just about every printer is different until HP had a >> standard( pscl5 as I recall ). > > Prior to the HP PCL (Printer Command Language), quite a few printers put > in Epson [MX80] emulation. > > HP introduced PCL in 1984. > > When they introduced the LaserJet["Minus"] (still in 1984) they were up > to PCL 3. > > LaserJet PLUS got PCL 4.? That remained active for a very long time. > "Intellifont" font scaling was in PCL 5 (for LaserJet III?) > > PCL 6 (1995?) was optimized for Windows. > My Panasonic laser printer purchased sometime before 1990, did PCL, Epson MX and Diablo 630 emulation. --Chuck From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun May 30 00:49:11 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 22:49:11 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/29/2021 5:58 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Who's idea was the mini-banana anyway? I do not think it was General > Radio. Pomona? > > I recently came across some dual mini banana adapters (for someone > without correct context that would be very confusing) but they have no > makers marks. Sort of like GenRad 274 stuff but half sized in every > dimension. While the mini-banana makes a passable (though expensive) modern substitute, I believe the originals were hollow crimp-on taper pins, #42107 or #42279. Vince > On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 8:41 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM William Donzelli via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. >>> Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. >> >> I already have one, but it has no wires and a reasonable substitute >> has not come to light despite occasional discussions over the past 20 >> years. >> >> But they are really cool. >> >> -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 30 00:52:17 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 01:52:17 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > While the mini-banana makes a passable (though expensive) modern > substitute, I believe the originals were hollow crimp-on taper pins, > #42107 or #42279. Really? I have loads of taper pin patch cables. I should try one out. The sockets just loom too big for taper pins. -- Will From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun May 30 01:33:39 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 23:33:39 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> On 5/29/2021 10:52 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> While the mini-banana makes a passable (though expensive) modern >> substitute, I believe the originals were hollow crimp-on taper pins, >> #42107 or #42279. > > Really? I have loads of taper pin patch cables. I should try one out. > > The sockets just loom too big for taper pins. I have a few original cables. They look to my untrained eye like stranded hook-up wire with a crimp-on pin on each end. The pins look like brass, and are about the size of the ones in the DEC current loop connectors, except brass and fatter as you move back toward the crimp. Like proper taper pins, they wedge nicely into the brass annuli on the H-500. They also work nicely in the earlier Logic Lab panels that took the flip-chip modules. I wish I could find a source for the pins, as I'd like to make a pile of patch cables! Unless your taper pin patch cables fit, and you want to unload a bunch of them :-). Vince From tingox at gmail.com Sun May 30 02:54:07 2021 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 09:54:07 +0200 Subject: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 5:20 AM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > Any way to get a Discord invite? > The original post about Discord is in the mailing list archives http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-November/050588.html not sure if the invite still is working. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 30 04:01:29 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 10:01:29 +0100 Subject: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ac01d75532$61217f70$23647e50$@ntlworld.com> No, the invitation doesn't work anymore. Would be nice to get a new one. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Torfinn > Ingolfsen via cctalk > Sent: 30 May 2021 08:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) > > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 5:20 AM Mike Stein via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Any way to get a Discord invite? > > > > The original post about Discord is in the mailing list archives > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-November/050588.html > not sure if the invite still is working. > > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Sun May 30 08:22:31 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 08:22:31 -0500 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I have a DEC computer lab, but no cables. It works fine, but I would love to pair it with an original-as-reasonable set of cables. Are the mini-banana plugs the best modern replacement available? Are pics of the original plugs available? Thank you, -Eric On Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:08 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/29/2021 10:52 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> While the mini-banana makes a passable (though expensive) modern > >> substitute, I believe the originals were hollow crimp-on taper pins, > >> #42107 or #42279. > > > > Really? I have loads of taper pin patch cables. I should try one out. > > > > The sockets just loom too big for taper pins. > > I have a few original cables. They look to my untrained eye like > stranded hook-up wire with a crimp-on pin on each end. The pins look > like brass, and are about the size of the ones in the DEC current loop > connectors, except brass and fatter as you move back toward the crimp. > > Like proper taper pins, they wedge nicely into the brass annuli on the > H-500. They also work nicely in the earlier Logic Lab panels that took > the flip-chip modules. I wish I could find a source for the pins, as > I'd like to make a pile of patch cables! > > Unless your taper pin patch cables fit, and you want to unload a bunch > of them :-). > > Vince > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 30 08:24:32 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 14:24:32 +0100 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18bd01d75557$20a13330$61e39990$@gmail.com> https://discord.gg/zBcwn8Za > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Stein via > cctalk > Sent: 30 May 2021 03:43 > To: William Donzelli ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Computer Lab for sale > > Any way to get a Discord invite? > > On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale. > > Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly. > > > > Offers? Off list... > > > > -- > > Will > > From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 30 09:25:36 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 08:25:36 -0600 Subject: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) In-Reply-To: <01ac01d75532$61217f70$23647e50$@ntlworld.com> References: <01ac01d75532$61217f70$23647e50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:01 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > No, the invitation doesn't work anymore. Would be nice to get a new one. > https://discord.gg/xqAypCGp will work for either a week or a month. Warner Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Torfinn > > Ingolfsen via cctalk > > Sent: 30 May 2021 08:54 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) > > > > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 5:20 AM Mike Stein via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Any way to get a Discord invite? > > > > > > > The original post about Discord is in the mailing list archives > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-November/050588.html > > not sure if the invite still is working. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun May 30 10:42:44 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 08:42:44 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> On 5/30/2021 6:22 AM, Eric Moore wrote: > Hi, I have a DEC computer lab, but no cables. It works fine, but I would > love to pair it with an original-as-reasonable set of cables. > > Are the mini-banana plugs the best modern replacement available? Are > pics of the original plugs available? The mini-banana works OK, and I don't know of anything better that is still available. A hundred of them (50 patch cables) won't be cheap. https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php The photos get a little bigger if you click them. Those bits of stamped brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. Vince > On Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:08 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > wrote: > > On 5/29/2021 10:52 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> While the mini-banana makes a passable (though expensive) modern > >> substitute, I believe the originals were hollow crimp-on taper pins, > >> #42107 or #42279. > > > > Really? I have loads of taper pin patch cables. I should try one out. > > > > The sockets just loom too big for taper pins. > > I have a few original cables.? They look to my untrained eye like > stranded hook-up wire with a crimp-on pin on each end.? The pins look > like brass, and are about the size of the ones in the DEC current loop > connectors, except brass and fatter as you move back toward the crimp. > > Like proper taper pins, they wedge nicely into the brass annuli on the > H-500.? They also work nicely in the earlier Logic Lab panels that took > the flip-chip modules.? I wish I could find a source for the pins, as > I'd like to make a pile of patch cables! > > Unless your taper pin patch cables fit, and you want to unload a bunch > of them :-). > > ? ? ? ? Vince > From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Sun May 30 10:45:22 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 10:45:22 -0500 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you! On Sun, May 30, 2021, 10:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad < vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/30/2021 6:22 AM, Eric Moore wrote: > > Hi, I have a DEC computer lab, but no cables. It works fine, but I would > > love to pair it with an original-as-reasonable set of cables. > > > > Are the mini-banana plugs the best modern replacement available? Are > > pics of the original plugs available? > > The mini-banana works OK, and I don't know of anything better that is > still available. A hundred of them (50 patch cables) won't be cheap. > > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php > The photos get a little bigger if you click them. Those bits of stamped > brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. > > Vince > > > On Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:08 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > On 5/29/2021 10:52 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> While the mini-banana makes a passable (though expensive) modern > > >> substitute, I believe the originals were hollow crimp-on taper > pins, > > >> #42107 or #42279. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 30 12:54:56 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 13:54:56 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 11:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php > The photos get a little bigger if you click them. Those bits of stamped > brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. I've thought about what it might take to manufacture a pair of steel rollers that could stamp those out but I haven't gotten very far with it. Same idea for the backplane bus strip DEC used to sell on the roll. Depending on level of detail, either a small CNC or possibly a wire EDM could make the dies. -ethan From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun May 30 14:34:09 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 12:34:09 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <093ac0e3-dae4-6b63-46b2-11d761b2fe5c@gmail.com> On 5/30/2021 10:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 11:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > wrote: >> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php >> The photos get a little bigger if you click them. Those bits of stamped >> brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. > > I've thought about what it might take to manufacture a pair of steel > rollers that could stamp those out but I haven't gotten very far with > it. Same idea for the backplane bus strip DEC used to sell on the > roll. > > Depending on level of detail, either a small CNC or possibly a wire > EDM could make the dies. I thought about machining a ram to deform an existing modern pin (or even just tubing) to create the taper. I also tried to cast some out of solder, but they had bubbles and were a little too soft (tin-lead solder). Also, with a solder connection you really need a good strain relief. At some point it's too much work for what you're accomplishing (and still not very authentic). Vince From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun May 30 15:02:24 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 16:02:24 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <093ac0e3-dae4-6b63-46b2-11d761b2fe5c@gmail.com> References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> <093ac0e3-dae4-6b63-46b2-11d761b2fe5c@gmail.com> Message-ID: What's the length and the diameters at each end of the pin? I've got some cables for Burroughs patch panels that might be useful. On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 3:40 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/30/2021 10:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 11:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > wrote: > >> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php > >> The photos get a little bigger if you click them. Those bits of stamped > >> brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. > > > > I've thought about what it might take to manufacture a pair of steel > > rollers that could stamp those out but I haven't gotten very far with > > it. Same idea for the backplane bus strip DEC used to sell on the > > roll. > > > > Depending on level of detail, either a small CNC or possibly a wire > > EDM could make the dies. > > I thought about machining a ram to deform an existing modern pin (or > even just tubing) to create the taper. > > I also tried to cast some out of solder, but they had bubbles and were a > little too soft (tin-lead solder). Also, with a solder connection you > really need a good strain relief. At some point it's too much work for > what you're accomplishing (and still not very authentic). > > Vince > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 30 15:22:49 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 20:22:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Fabritek logic trainers anyone have manuals for these? Anyone have one of these trainers besides us?? References: <1316365923.1749654.1622406169594.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1316365923.1749654.1622406169594@mail.yahoo.com> Fabritek logic trainers? anyone have manuals for these? Anyone? have one of these trainers besides us??Ed at SMECC MUSEUM PROJECT? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 30 15:31:39 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 13:31:39 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> <093ac0e3-dae4-6b63-46b2-11d761b2fe5c@gmail.com> Message-ID: What about some Molex pins? They're plated (tin or gold), and they're made for insertion and look to be about the right diameter, though it's hard to say without a specific measurement.. I wonder if the originals are not quite cartridge ("yellow")brass, but phosphor bronze. Stiffer--and does not lose its "springiness". Used a lot for contacts. --Chuck From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun May 30 17:02:52 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 15:02:52 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> <093ac0e3-dae4-6b63-46b2-11d761b2fe5c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f5fb78f-ee24-f6d8-2473-c50162e5fcc0@gmail.com> On 5/30/2021 1:02 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > What's the length and the diameters at each end of the pin? I've got > some cables for Burroughs patch panels that might be useful. The pin diameter at the rounded tip is .093", a standard pin diameter. It flares to 0.102" or so, over about 0.34" of length. The overall pin length (including the insulation crimp/strain relief) is about 0.65". Also measured some patch cords (pin tip to pin tip): Brown is 2.75". Red is 4.75". Orange is 6.75". Yellow is 8.75". Green is 16.5". Subtract about an inch and a quarter for the length of the visible wire. There was also blue, though I don't have one to measure. My notes remind me that the blue looks about an inch or so longer than green, based on the cover photo of the manual. At that length it will comfortably reach across the device, whereas the green is just a little short for that. Found in my old notes: The DEC 12-03498 was a #41675 taper pin. Similar AMP taper pins: 42107 "88" series will fit. 42279 is similar, though obsolete. My old notes also suggest higher quantities for the patch cords; 100 of them all together: B 20 R 30 O 25 Y 20 G 10 B 2 Vince > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 3:40 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > wrote: > > On 5/30/2021 10:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 11:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > > wrote: > >> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php > > >> The photos get a little bigger if you click them.? Those bits of > stamped > >> brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. > > > > I've thought about what it might take to manufacture a pair of steel > > rollers that could stamp those out but I haven't gotten very far with > > it.? Same idea for the backplane bus strip DEC used to sell on the > > roll. > > > > Depending on level of detail, either a small CNC or possibly a wire > > EDM could make the dies. > > I thought about machining a ram to deform an existing modern pin (or > even just tubing) to create the taper. > > I also tried to cast some out of solder, but they had bubbles and > were a > little too soft (tin-lead solder).? Also, with a solder connection you > really need a good strain relief.? At some point it's too much work for > what you're accomplishing (and still not very authentic). > > ? ? ? ? Vince > From peter at oneillassociates.com.au Sun May 30 22:55:41 2021 From: peter at oneillassociates.com.au (Peter D. O'Neill) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 13:25:41 +0930 Subject: Cypher 68000/Z80 SBC, Motel Computers Message-ID: <003601d755d0$d5a703d0$80f50b70$@oneillassociates.com.au> While going through some boxes which have been unopened since my last move 15 years ago I found a Cypher 68000/Z80 single board computer by Motel Computers Ltd, Ontario Canada that I bought back in 1986. In another box I found some of the documentation. I'm hopeful of finding the manual and disks but they haven't turned up yet. Does anyone have the manual and disks for this board? Regards, Peter O'Neill From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon May 31 06:00:21 2021 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 11:00:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: H960 documentation In-Reply-To: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <490292119.2817442.1622458821400@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks a lot for sharing this with us, Noel! I was looking for such information on the H960 cabinets in the past and this covers it all. Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Freitag, 28. Mai 2021, 16:02:54 MESZ hat Noel Chiappa via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: So, I have images of two different pieces of DEC documentation for the H960 series of racks/cabinets (the H950 is the bare rack; the H960 is the rack complete with various appurtenances such as side panel, stabilizer feet, etc). I had a request for them, so I've put them online. They are: ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DEC_cabinets1.jpg ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DEC_cabinets2.jpg The entry in the Direct Sales Catalog which covers them; includes illustrated breakdowns, and the DEC part numbers for everything. ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual1.jpg ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual2.jpg ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual3.jpg ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual4.jpg ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/H960/DECRackManual5.jpg The Assembly Guide; it shows in detail how all the bits go together (includes all the captive nuts, bolts, etc). ? ? Noel From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon May 31 06:20:15 2021 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 11:20:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <8E51192C-8E45-4390-9E09-73301E990445@avanthar.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <8E51192C-8E45-4390-9E09-73301E990445@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1461995015.2793505.1622460015394@mail.yahoo.com> > >Which just makes me sick to the stomach, considering what I sent up there.? I really hope you?re wrong.? What I really >regret is a LARGE box of GCOS-8 documentation.? :-(? They have a lot of unobtainable software and documentation. > >Zane You didn't scan the documents prior to giving them to the museum? I always do that before donating documents to a museum, since it is fairly sure that they are going to probably stay there for as long as the museum exists... with the only problem that they do not get accessible to the public anymore before somebody like Al Kossow or other curators or? museum members have the time to help out and make them accessible when somebody asks for access. Cheers, Pierre From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon May 31 06:27:40 2021 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 11:27:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> > >Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. >They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with >them is. > >I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after >valuable items much better than most museums can. While I have also observed this in the case of a few (former) museums in Europe, I think that there is no perfect solution to either individuals or museums unless items are considered national heritage and "enjoying" a different state of protection than what is typifally seen in computer museums (In France, a very early Bull system has that particular protection). No matter the individuals or museums, if circumstances change in ways that were unforseen (individual dies and heritage is not taken care of as panned, or museum shuts down and collection needs to get "disposed of" ASAP), then things will usually not end well for the majority of a collection - again: no matter if it is a museum or from private hands. Cheers, Pierre From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 31 07:06:36 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 13:06:36 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E version numbers In-Reply-To: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5bd57156-afe0-4f3f-a4d5-779624729d79@ntlworld.com> Can someone explain RSTS/E version numbers to me? They seem to be all over the place: V2A-19, V4A-12, V4B-17, V5A-21, V5B-24, V5C-01, V6A-02, V6B-02, V6C-03. Then it seems to have switched scheme but the "-number" suffix reappears: V7.0, V7.2, V8.0-06. Any clarification would be helpful. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon May 31 07:16:23 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 13:16:23 +0100 Subject: MA8807A ic datasheet wanted Message-ID: OK, this is mildly off-topic... I am working on a piece of telecom-related test gear and there's one IC I can't find data on. It's a 40 pin DIL package made by GEC (the UK company), marked MA8807A. I thought at first it was a ULA, but I can find refeences to a 8bit * 8bit -> 16 bit multiplier with that number, so I guess that's it. But I can't find a datasheet or even a pinout. It may have appeared under the Plessey brand too, but I am not certain of that I've been along my bookshelves, looked in the obvious books on bitsavers etc and found nothing. Does anyone have any data on this chip? -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 31 09:04:08 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 10:04:08 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E version numbers In-Reply-To: <5bd57156-afe0-4f3f-a4d5-779624729d79@ntlworld.com> References: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5bd57156-afe0-4f3f-a4d5-779624729d79@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <911878DB-01BA-4ABA-B90A-08D6729A9F62@comcast.net> > On May 31, 2021, at 8:06 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > Can someone explain RSTS/E version numbers to me? > > They seem to be all over the place: V2A-19, V4A-12, V4B-17, V5A-21, V5B-24, V5C-01, V6A-02, V6B-02, V6C-03. > > Then it seems to have switched scheme but the "-number" suffix reappears: V7.0, V7.2, V8.0-06. > > Any clarification would be helpful. I think this might have been part of a general DEC change in version numbering conventions. The earlier rule was that the first number is the major version, the letter is the minor version. As of V7 it changed to major number dot minor number. In either case, the dash number suffix is the baselevel number (development build cycle number). Those typically restart at 0 or 1 for each release, so V5C-01 indicates only one baselevel was done for that minor release. That may not be true in all cases; I doubt that V4B had 17 baselevels so that number probably wasn't reset between V4A and V4B. The definition of "minor release" was not always applied consistently. For example, V6B was the first release that was built natively (using RT-11 emulation) rather than using DOS. And its the first release that did bus probing at startup to figure out the peripheral configuration and adjust the running monitor to match. That seems like a pretty large change, but for some reason it didn't prompt a new major number. The notation change happened part way through the V7.0 development cycle. I remember a memo from management entitled "RSTS V7A canceled" :-) . Sometimes version numbers seem to be missing. I don't know if anyone ever saw V1, and I also never saw V3B though I have seen V3A and V3C. paul From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon May 31 12:24:43 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 13:24:43 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <5f5fb78f-ee24-f6d8-2473-c50162e5fcc0@gmail.com> References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> <093ac0e3-dae4-6b63-46b2-11d761b2fe5c@gmail.com> <5f5fb78f-ee24-f6d8-2473-c50162e5fcc0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, these pins are smaller: .056" - .068'. m On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 6:02 PM Vincent Slyngstad < vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/30/2021 1:02 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > What's the length and the diameters at each end of the pin? I've got > > some cables for Burroughs patch panels that might be useful. > > The pin diameter at the rounded tip is .093", a standard pin diameter. > It flares to 0.102" or so, over about 0.34" of length. The overall pin > length (including the insulation crimp/strain relief) is about 0.65". > > Also measured some patch cords (pin tip to pin tip): > Brown is 2.75". > Red is 4.75". > Orange is 6.75". > Yellow is 8.75". > Green is 16.5". > Subtract about an inch and a quarter for the length of the visible wire. > > There was also blue, though I don't have one to measure. My notes > remind me that the blue looks about an inch or so longer than green, > based on the cover photo of the manual. At that length it will > comfortably reach across the device, whereas the green is just a little > short for that. > > Found in my old notes: > The DEC 12-03498 was a #41675 taper pin. > Similar AMP taper pins: > 42107 "88" series will fit. > 42279 is similar, though obsolete. > > My old notes also suggest higher quantities for the patch cords; 100 of > them all together: > B 20 > R 30 > O 25 > Y 20 > G 10 > B 2 > > Vince > > > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 3:40 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > On 5/30/2021 10:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 11:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > > > > wrote: > > >> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php > > > > >> The photos get a little bigger if you click them. Those bits of > > stamped > > >> brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. > > > > > > I've thought about what it might take to manufacture a pair of > steel > > > rollers that could stamp those out but I haven't gotten very far > with > > > it. Same idea for the backplane bus strip DEC used to sell on the > > > roll. > > > > > > Depending on level of detail, either a small CNC or possibly a > wire > > > EDM could make the dies. > > > > I thought about machining a ram to deform an existing modern pin (or > > even just tubing) to create the taper. > > > > I also tried to cast some out of solder, but they had bubbles and > > were a > > little too soft (tin-lead solder). Also, with a solder connection > you > > really need a good strain relief. At some point it's too much work > for > > what you're accomplishing (and still not very authentic). > > > > Vince > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 31 12:31:59 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 13:31:59 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E version numbers In-Reply-To: <911878DB-01BA-4ABA-B90A-08D6729A9F62@comcast.net> References: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5bd57156-afe0-4f3f-a4d5-779624729d79@ntlworld.com> <911878DB-01BA-4ABA-B90A-08D6729A9F62@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On May 31, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On May 31, 2021, at 8:06 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> >> Can someone explain RSTS/E version numbers to me? >> >> They seem to be all over the place: V2A-19, V4A-12, V4B-17, V5A-21, V5B-24, V5C-01, V6A-02, V6B-02, V6C-03. >> >> Then it seems to have switched scheme but the "-number" suffix reappears: V7.0, V7.2, V8.0-06. >> >> Any clarification would be helpful. > > I think this might have been part of a general DEC change in version numbering conventions. > > The earlier rule was that the first number is the major version, the letter is the minor version. As of V7 it changed to major number dot minor number. In either case, the dash number suffix is the baselevel number (development build cycle number). Those typically restart at 0 or 1 for each release, so V5C-01 indicates only one baselevel was done for that minor release. That may not be true in all cases; I doubt that V4B had 17 baselevels so that number probably wasn't reset between V4A and V4B. > > The definition of "minor release" was not always applied consistently. For example, V6B was the first release that was built natively (using RT-11 emulation) rather than using DOS. And its the first release that did bus probing at startup to figure out the peripheral configuration and adjust the running monitor to match. That seems like a pretty large change, but for some reason it didn't prompt a new major number. > > The notation change happened part way through the V7.0 development cycle. I remember a memo from management entitled "RSTS V7A canceled" :-) . Found it. See http://bitsavers.org/magazines/RSTS_Professional/RSTS_Professional_V02_N03_198009.pdf, page number 6 (8th page in the PDF file). paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 31 12:55:03 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 18:55:03 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E version numbers In-Reply-To: <911878DB-01BA-4ABA-B90A-08D6729A9F62@comcast.net> References: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5bd57156-afe0-4f3f-a4d5-779624729d79@ntlworld.com> <911878DB-01BA-4ABA-B90A-08D6729A9F62@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 31/05/2021 15:04, Paul Koning wrote: > > The earlier rule was that the first number is the major version, the letter is the minor version. As of V7 it changed to major number dot minor number. In either case, the dash number suffix is the baselevel number (development build cycle number). Those typically restart at 0 or 1 for each release, so V5C-01 indicates only one baselevel was done for that minor release. That may not be true in all cases; I doubt that V4B had 17 baselevels so that number probably wasn't reset between V4A and V4B. Looking at them I guess RT-11 does something similar: V2, V02B, V02C. I can (just about :-)) cope with the seemingly optional leading 0, but would there have been a V2A? There was for IAS. Actually IAS had V3, V3.1, V3.2, V3.2A, V3.2B and V3.2C. So IAS went major.minor in a sort of half-hearted way :-) > Sometimes version numbers seem to be missing. I don't know if anyone ever saw V1, and I also never saw V3B though I have seen V3A and V3C. > The "80th Birthday Memo" (http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm) says that V1 never made it out of the door. V2A-19 was the first to ship. The "DEC 1957 to he Present" book (http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/dec%201957%20to%20present%201978.pdf) confirms the FY in which RSTS-11 shipped but not the version number. The earliest manuals online seem to be the V4.x ones available on bitsavers. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 31 13:04:33 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 14:04:33 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E version numbers In-Reply-To: References: <20210528140244.C1EDB18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5bd57156-afe0-4f3f-a4d5-779624729d79@ntlworld.com> <911878DB-01BA-4ABA-B90A-08D6729A9F62@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2B0E752B-7E0C-4379-9B83-D3DB32A4DABF@comcast.net> > On May 31, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > On 31/05/2021 15:04, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> The earlier rule was that the first number is the major version, the letter is the minor version. As of V7 it changed to major number dot minor number. In either case, the dash number suffix is the baselevel number (development build cycle number). Those typically restart at 0 or 1 for each release, so V5C-01 indicates only one baselevel was done for that minor release. That may not be true in all cases; I doubt that V4B had 17 baselevels so that number probably wasn't reset between V4A and V4B. > Looking at them I guess RT-11 does something similar: V2, V02B, V02C. I can (just about :-)) cope with the seemingly optional leading 0, but would there have been a V2A? There was for IAS. Actually IAS had V3, V3.1, V3.2, V3.2A, V3.2B and V3.2C. So IAS went major.minor in a sort of half-hearted way :-) > >> Sometimes version numbers seem to be missing. I don't know if anyone ever saw V1, and I also never saw V3B though I have seen V3A and V3C. >> > The "80th Birthday Memo" (http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm) says that V1 never made it out of the door. V2A-19 was the first to ship. > > The "DEC 1957 to he Present" book (http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/dec%201957%20to%20present%201978.pdf) confirms the FY in which RSTS-11 shipped but not the version number. > > The earliest manuals online seem to be the V4.x ones available on bitsavers. Yes, which makes experiments with older versions a bit tricky because the startup dialog is different (and cryptic). I have the basic info somewhere, I should write it up. paul From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon May 31 13:24:11 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 20:24:11 +0200 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20210531182411.GA2972@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:27:40AM +0000, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > > > >Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. > >They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with > >them is. > > > >I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after > >valuable items much better than most museums can. > > While I have also observed this in the case of a few (former) > museums in Europe, I think that there is no perfect solution to > either individuals or museums unless items are considered national > heritage and "enjoying" a different state of protection than what is > typifally seen in computer museums (In France, a very early Bull > system has that particular protection). No matter the individuals or > museums, if circumstances change in ways that were unforseen > (individual dies and heritage is not taken care of as panned, or > museum shuts down and collection needs to get "disposed of" ASAP), > then things will usually not end well for the majority of a > collection - again: no matter if it is a museum or from private > hands. > > Cheers, > Pierre I really wonder how things related to old tech / engineering are being done in the world. I think certain things need to be financed by someone who has a steady income and can afford to have a decades-long mission to do this or that, usually for the good of humanity. So, private persons are unfortunately out, and museums which depend on donations from private persons are in the picture as long as they can have attention from wealthy sponsors. Other possible curators for something which should last more that individual life are governments and... churches. While of course governments are corrupt and churches are satanic (or the other way around), but so are wealthy donors (both ways)... I think it is very rare that a person is both engineer (working engineer, hobby engineer, someone who makes things from dead matter rather than from other people like mba-s and hr-s do) and wealthy enough to fund a museum from his own pocket. As I see, majority of folks here is from US and the only thinkable option is wealthy engineer. The rarest creature on this pitiful planet, and very short living. Think about it. How many cathedrals would have been built if the building process was in the hands of merchants (or politicians - but fortunately there were also kings when most of cathedrals were being built, so a politician, and a bishop, could have their heads severed off and those were good times) ? Ten years later, all stones sold to biggest bidder. Perhaps to their own relatives. Perhaps collectors on this list should rethink their options. Maybe start a church. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon May 31 16:50:37 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 17:50:37 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <20210531182411.GA2972@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> <20210531182411.GA2972@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <85107160-74e8-c0d8-6c77-60349c280dec@alembic.crystel.com> > I really wonder how things related to old tech / engineering are being > done in the world. I think certain things need to be financed by > someone who has a steady income and can afford to have a decades-long > mission to do this or that, usually for the good of humanity. > ... > Perhaps collectors on this list should rethink their options. Maybe > start a church. This is a problem that has been going on for a long time: Think of the Egyptian Pharaohs: They had amazing stuff, it was buried with them in massive pyramids, and within a few generations it was looted and probably melted down into junk lost to history. People didn't care. Took thousands of years before people actually cared about the remaining loot boxes and to be honest it's only been 100 years so it's quite possible King Tut's junk will be trashed when the next revolution comes (see ISIS). Honestly the best idea may be to bury this stuff in concrete and sink it in a deep hole somewhere. Stuff is used, then worthless, then suddenly valuable and cherished when it's almost all gone. To be honest, the best thing that can happen is if prices for this stuff skyrocket on Ebay and stay there. People take better care of things they pay a lot of $$$ for and while I know people pish posh selling it on Ebay to the highest bidder it's probably the best way to make sure it gets taken care of as opposed to a "donation" that is treated like junk because it was "free". I saw this happen with early Porsche 911's. They were nice, then worthless then you couldn't give the damn things away. Now they go for 100-300k. I'm trying to convince my dad to just trade his 68 911L for the best Porsche that Stuttgart can build so it can go to their museum and they will actually value the little thing.... I just gave away a Megaframe, a pretty priceless little thing. I hope by now they are rare enough that the guy who got it will take care of it and love it. We'll see. C From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 31 17:02:07 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 15:02:07 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <85107160-74e8-c0d8-6c77-60349c280dec@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> <20210531182411.GA2972@tau1.ceti.pl> <85107160-74e8-c0d8-6c77-60349c280dec@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <6f3021d9-37a5-f993-3e35-e4e476d0bc18@bitsavers.org> > King Tut's junk will be trashed when the next revolution comes (see ISIS). US in Gulf War I destroying museums in Iraq sore subject for me.. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon May 31 17:55:48 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 18:55:48 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <6f3021d9-37a5-f993-3e35-e4e476d0bc18@bitsavers.org> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> <20210531182411.GA2972@tau1.ceti.pl> <85107160-74e8-c0d8-6c77-60349c280dec@alembic.crystel.com> <6f3021d9-37a5-f993-3e35-e4e476d0bc18@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Sure, Library of Alexadria, lots of examples through history. Oddly enough people like to find this stuff, centralize it somewhere, then burn it to the ground. Go figure. And make sure all of your stuff is backed up all over the place, it's amazing how it can all wind up on one guy's FTP server that vanishes.... C On 5/31/2021 6:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> King Tut's junk will be trashed when the next revolution comes (see >> ISIS). > > US in Gulf War I destroying museums in Iraq > > sore subject for me.. > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 31 18:47:19 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 00:47:19 +0100 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> <20210531182411.GA2972@tau1.ceti.pl> <85107160-74e8-c0d8-6c77-60349c280dec@alembic.crystel.com> <6f3021d9-37a5-f993-3e35-e4e476d0bc18@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <01503f23-0d8a-11d2-7497-d8188b616aa7@ntlworld.com> On 31/05/2021 23:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Sure, Library of Alexadria, lots of examples through history. Oddly > enough people like to find this stuff, centralize it somewhere, then > burn it to the ground. > > Go figure. And make sure all of your stuff is backed up all over the > place, it's amazing how it can all wind up on one guy's FTP server > that vanishes.... > True. I was looking for a document [1] from www.miim.com just the other? day. I know it used to be available because I had previously saved a few other docs from there, just not this one. But it's gone and archive.org won't serve it up (I did find the site owner's account of his battle with archive.org to sto pserving copies of his stuff ... ironically on another archive site!) [1] The RSX FAQ, in case anyone else was more diligent than I was! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 31 19:34:28 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 17:34:28 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <01503f23-0d8a-11d2-7497-d8188b616aa7@ntlworld.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <1338057247.2823742.1622460460733@mail.yahoo.com> <20210531182411.GA2972@tau1.ceti.pl> <85107160-74e8-c0d8-6c77-60349c280dec@alembic.crystel.com> <6f3021d9-37a5-f993-3e35-e4e476d0bc18@bitsavers.org> <01503f23-0d8a-11d2-7497-d8188b616aa7@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9BF3A259-4C30-43C7-BA49-CCE19ED3281E@avanthar.com> That guy is? How shall I put it? An ass! He doesn?t even like people linking to his site. Years ago, I had a page linking to his RSX BBS website, and he set it up so anyone following my link would get redirected to some obscene website. I think that this was 20+ years ago. The minute I read what you wrote, I figured it was him, so I went looking. I didn?t even realize he was still around. What are you looking for? I might have a copy. Zane > On May 31, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > True. I was looking for a document [1] from www.miim.com just the other day. I know it used to be available because I had previously saved a few other docs from there, just not this one. But it's gone and archive.org won't serve it up (I did find the site owner's account of his battle with archive.org to sto pserving copies of his stuff ... ironically on another archive site!) > > [1] The RSX FAQ, in case anyone else was more diligent than I was! > > > Antonio From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 31 22:08:05 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 20:08:05 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue Message-ID: I now have my VAXstation 4000/vlc up and running OpenVMS 7.3, DECnet Phase IV, and part of my cluster. It?s using a SCSI2SD v5.2 board for the hard drive. While have plenty of DEC Hard Drives, I like the lower noise, power, and heat of the SCSI2SD?s, plus I can really cram the disk space in there, this has a whopping 32GB. :-) I?m using a VSXXX-AA mouse (Hocky Puck), and when I use the middle-button on the mouse, it messes up DECwindows, and I?m no longer able to use the other buttons, which means I can?t change to another window, or access menus. It remains like this until I either logout, or reboot. Does this sound familiar to anyone? This is actually the first time I?ve used a VAXstation as a VAXstation, so I don?t know if this is normal (though I can?t imagine it is). Zane