From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 1 23:01:38 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 21:01:38 -0700 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010001d76ef6$f5c33460$e1499d20$@net> > I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The > following things are for sale : > > > Located in melbourne fl. > Was anyone able to get in touch with Devin? -Ali From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Jul 1 23:08:16 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 00:08:16 -0400 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: <010001d76ef6$f5c33460$e1499d20$@net> References: <010001d76ef6$f5c33460$e1499d20$@net> Message-ID: Yes. i have shipped a few things out already. I am working to get a hardware inventory on the sgi tezro posted, and some pictures of the hp 9000 and terminals. On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, 12:01 AM Ali wrote: > > I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The > > following things are for sale : > > > > > > Located in melbourne fl. > > > > Was anyone able to get in touch with Devin? > > -Ali > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 01:55:45 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 02:55:45 -0400 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Updated list of items soon to follow. The S100 boards and chasis are sold. This 286 ibm computer is for sale. Ill post back with more items / pictures once i find more i decide to part with. From macro at orcam.me.uk Sun Jul 4 07:06:06 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 14:06:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PCIe/PCI I/O access (was: Re: VT340 Emulation) In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <04C56334-ABE1-46C3-AC2F-AE14207E9821@comcast.net> <0569227D-5902-4F6A-AB0D-3A964E363DA3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Kevin Bowling wrote: > Thanks this was interesting learning. You are welcome! NB I think it is also worth noting that the presence of I/O instructions and corresponding bus cycles with x86 is most relevant for PCI as it is only *because* x86, or more importantly the PC/AT architecture, has had them in the first place that PCI (and consequently PCIe) has them as well. Likewise the interrupt acknowledge or the special cycle bus transactions -- they're both x86-specific, even if they may have been later repurposed in non-x86 PCI system designs. Intel was a key player in PCI design and surely their requirements were first-class citizens in the solution proposed. While early PCI systems commonly had PCI and ISA/EISA buses arranged as peers on the CPU host bus, with the respective bridge chips being two of the three or more agents arbitrated there (the remaining ones being the CPU(s)), the ability to route x86-specific bus cycles over PCI eventually let the industry settle on PCI x86 systems of the common northbridge/southbridge architecture we saw so many specimens of, where I/O address space resources originating from the PC, PC/XT, and PC/AT architectures can be accessed behind a PCI bus segment just as if they were attached directly to the CPU, possibly via some bus buffers only, like with the original IBM design from 1981. Similarly an x86 CPU can send an interrupt acknowledge cycle over PCI to request an interrupt vector from an 8259A interrupt controller core present in the southbridge, or a shutdown special cycle, in response to a triple fault, so as to make the southbridge assert a CPU reset, just like the original discrete PC/AT circuitry did. None of this is really needed by non-x86 systems, although again these features may have been repurposed now that they are present (Intel has since invented additional special CPU cycles too, used in power management and intepreted by the southbridge), and numerous host bridges used with non-x86 systems have dedicated CSRs in the memory address space for issuing these PCI bus cycles, which the CPU cannot natively produce. BTW it wasn't exactly obvious to me that a flood of: LPC[000]: Got SYNC no-response error. Error address reg: 0xd0010014 IPMI: dropping non severe PEL event messages produced by the system firmware to the console serial port was a symptom of a PCI device driver trying to poke at the port I/O address of 0, correctly left by the OS in the relevant device's BAR (Base Address Register) along with the disabled status for I/O decoding in the device's PCI Command Register. The driver, not platform-specific and unaware of the possibility of the inexistence of the PCI I/O address space in some systems, ignored the disabled status of I/O decoding with the device and just went ahead and poked at it, confusing the host bridge with the bus accesses that resulted (likely an OS bug too with port I/O address space accessors, though I wasn't inclined enough to chase it); of course the port I/O address of 0 itself has no particular meaning with non-x86 systems and can be legitimately assigned and used with PCI devices. FWIW, Maciej From carlclaunch51 at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 12:29:15 2021 From: carlclaunch51 at gmail.com (Carl Claunch) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 10:29:15 -0700 Subject: Free punched card deck machine, suitable to make reader and punch Message-ID: I bought this years ago for a planned project to create a card reader and card punch for a mainframe replica, using this machine that was designed to reproduce decks of punched cards. It is very heavy and sturdy. It has two input hoppers and two stackers, one for the source cards and one for the punched copies. The punched head is cooled by ammonia gas, indicating that it was designed to operate at a healthy rate of cards per minute if it needed that kind of cooling. A keypunch, by comparison can punch cards at about 20 cpm with no need for cooling, so I estimate this could run at hundreds of CPM. This is ideal for a hobbyist would would convert it so that it reads cards into some kind of mini, mainframe or other computer device, with the other side able to punch contents from the same computer onto blank cards. This works with the standard IBM '5081' style 80 column punched cards. I am moving in 12 days and would need to send this to the scrap yard if someone isn't interested. I can hold it here until July 12th or 13th latest. You will need to bring help to move it as it weighs a few hundred pounds. Pictures at - https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/d/los-altos-free-punched-card-reader-punch/7346150919.html From abs at absd.org Sun Jul 4 13:52:59 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 19:52:59 +0100 Subject: First new vax in ...30 years? :-) Message-ID: In case anyone was interested in an FPGA VAX implementation http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003899.html And/or thoughts on 64bit/FP & multiprocessor enhancements :-p http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003903.html David From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 14:50:46 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 12:50:46 -0700 Subject: Free punched card deck machine, suitable to make reader and punch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl how big and heavy is it? I thought it was way bigger. I might take it. Someone will have to help load/unload in the car due to my injured back... Marc > On Jul 4, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Carl Claunch via cctech wrote: > > ?I bought this years ago for a planned project to create a card reader and > card punch for a mainframe replica, using this machine that was designed to > reproduce decks of punched cards. It is very heavy and sturdy. > > It has two input hoppers and two stackers, one for the source cards and one > for the punched copies. The punched head is cooled by ammonia gas, > indicating that it was designed to operate at a healthy rate of cards per > minute if it needed that kind of cooling. A keypunch, by comparison can > punch cards at about 20 cpm with no need for cooling, so I estimate this > could run at hundreds of CPM. > > This is ideal for a hobbyist would would convert it so that it reads cards > into some kind of mini, mainframe or other computer device, with the other > side able to punch contents from the same computer onto blank cards. This > works with the standard IBM '5081' style 80 column punched cards. > > I am moving in 12 days and would need to send this to the scrap yard if > someone isn't interested. I can hold it here until July 12th or 13th > latest. You will need to bring help to move it as it weighs a few hundred > pounds. > > Pictures at - > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/d/los-altos-free-punched-card-reader-punch/7346150919.html From carlclaunch51 at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 15:11:36 2021 From: carlclaunch51 at gmail.com (Carl Claunch) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 13:11:36 -0700 Subject: Free punched card deck machine, suitable to make reader and punch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The machine is 41" wide, 22" deep and 22" high. Total guess is 200 pounds, might be a bit less. I have a hydraulic lift cart that can be used to roll it to a car and lift it to the bed height, but someone has to be able to lift it up onto the cart and then off the cart at its final destination assuming we bring the cart to its new home. Carl On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 12:50 PM Curious Marc wrote: > Carl how big and heavy is it? I thought it was way bigger. I might take > it. Someone will have to help load/unload in the car due to my injured > back... > Marc > > > On Jul 4, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Carl Claunch via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?I bought this years ago for a planned project to create a card reader > and > > card punch for a mainframe replica, using this machine that was designed > to > > reproduce decks of punched cards. It is very heavy and sturdy. > > > > It has two input hoppers and two stackers, one for the source cards and > one > > for the punched copies. The punched head is cooled by ammonia gas, > > indicating that it was designed to operate at a healthy rate of cards per > > minute if it needed that kind of cooling. A keypunch, by comparison can > > punch cards at about 20 cpm with no need for cooling, so I estimate this > > could run at hundreds of CPM. > > > > This is ideal for a hobbyist would would convert it so that it reads > cards > > into some kind of mini, mainframe or other computer device, with the > other > > side able to punch contents from the same computer onto blank cards. This > > works with the standard IBM '5081' style 80 column punched cards. > > > > I am moving in 12 days and would need to send this to the scrap yard if > > someone isn't interested. I can hold it here until July 12th or 13th > > latest. You will need to bring help to move it as it weighs a few hundred > > pounds. > > > > Pictures at - > > > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/d/los-altos-free-punched-card-reader-punch/7346150919.html > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jul 5 15:48:40 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 15:48:40 -0500 Subject: First new vax in ...30 years? :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05e14c7a-e23e-2f9e-6e79-34d793d1eb06@pico-systems.com> On 7/4/21 1:52 PM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > In case anyone was interested in an FPGA VAX implementation > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003899.html > > And/or thoughts on 64bit/FP & multiprocessor enhancements :-p > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003903.html WOW,very impressive! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 5 16:00:28 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 22:00:28 +0100 Subject: First new vax in ...30 years? :-) In-Reply-To: <05e14c7a-e23e-2f9e-6e79-34d793d1eb06@pico-systems.com> References: <05e14c7a-e23e-2f9e-6e79-34d793d1eb06@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4351baa4-c994-a842-6517-b2746f49c95e@ntlworld.com> On 05/07/2021 21:48, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/4/21 1:52 PM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: >> In case anyone was interested in an FPGA VAX implementation >> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003899.html >> >> And/or thoughts on 64bit/FP & multiprocessor enhancements :-p >> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003903.html > > WOW,very impressive! > Indeed. If only someone could get him a copy of DEC's AXE suite so he can test it properly. Anyone have that available? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 19:05:00 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 20:05:00 -0400 Subject: First new vax in ...30 years? :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 2:46 AM David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > In case anyone was interested in an FPGA VAX implementation > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003899.html I think this is fantastic, but getting the CPU running is only the start. I'll be curious what/how storage emulation goes, and networking. Bonus points for sync serial that can run a DDCMP line to vintage machines. -ethan From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jul 5 20:37:01 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 18:37:01 -0700 Subject: First new vax in ...30 years? :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <521CB6C9-4E11-4AF1-8E00-39D4395D6B10@avanthar.com> > On Jul 5, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 2:46 AM David Brownlee via cctalk > wrote: >> In case anyone was interested in an FPGA VAX implementation >> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003899.html > > I think this is fantastic, but getting the CPU running is only the > start. I'll be curious what/how storage emulation goes, and > networking. Bonus points for sync serial that can run a DDCMP line to > vintage machines. > > -ethan I found myself wondering what it would take to put this, RAM, network, and a SD Card ?Disk? on a Q-Bus board. :-) Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 5 21:30:22 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 19:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... Message-ID: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> Well, the pandemic turns everything upside down and we're looking at new employment, a new place and probably having to slash a few things. First on the chopping block is to consolidate and downsize storage. These systems and peripherals are all free to a good home; all you have to do is pick them up. Pick up any and all, with priority given to those who are interested in multiple units. I've tried to describe them as completely as possible. A few items have "on your honour" conditions. I'm also giving priority to classiccmp readers before I post public elsewhere. The items are in various places over the Riverside-San Bernardino area in Southern California depending on where and when I acquired them, so send me an off-list E-mail and we'll figure it out based on their location. THESE ITEMS NEED TO BE GONE IN THE NEXT MONTH. If you need a little extra time, we can work something out; I'd rather not scrap what someone has an interest in, but obviously with a likely move approaching, the sooner the better. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= POSSIBLY WORKING: PDP-11/44 with at least four disk packs and lots of paper tape and 8" floppies, sitting on top of what I think is a TU58. I never got the chance to fire it on. You will need a truck, probably a cart and definitely a hernia belt. There is also a big Kennedy disk next to it but I don't know if they originally went together. POSSIBLY WORKING: DEC VT100. This got bashed around a little and the case is a little loose, and I don't know if it works, but it's an honest to Ford VT100. NOT WORKING: Alpha Micro S-100 system. I got this when I had more money with the intention of rehabilitating it when I had more time, and now I have less of both. It will work for other S-100 cards. Whatever cards and devices are in there are all yours. They are heavy steel drawers and it can take big cards. There are two boxes; please take both. NOT WORKING: Acorn RiscPC 700 and Castle Iyonix PC. Like the AM S-100 system, I got this when I had more money but not enough time, and now I have neither. They need specialist restoration as neither system powers on, and it doesn't appear to be (just) the PSU. In particular, the RiscPC came to me with a leaky board battery which may have something to do with it. Both systems appear heavily upgraded but I don't have any inventory. If you are interested, it is expected you will be restoring the systems and not just turning around to part them out; there aren't that many of these machines on this side of the Atlantic (on your honour). Please take both units; you will get a big box of software and RiscPC artifacts from the previous owner as well. WORKING: Snow iMac G3 (600MHz, 512MB RAM). Works fine, comes up in stock 10.3.9. Needs a new PRAM battery but in good shape otherwise. Add your own USB keyboard and mouse. This was a gift from a good buddy, so it goes to you with the understanding you will try to find it a home if you don't want it instead of trying to sell it (on your honour). Everyone should have the joy of an original iMac. NOT WORKING: Atari STacy, disassembled. I was working on the system to replace the hard disk and one of the power headers got shifted which put 12V on a 5V line. Guaranteed this liberated some magic smoke from the motherboard or a yet-to-be-detected fuse somewhere, but the keyboard, RAM card, screen and such were all functional at the time I effed up and probably still are. You will get it in a fabulous Office Depot box with "STacy" written on it using a half-dead Sharpie. POSSIBLY WORKING: Mega ST4 with Megafile 60 and SC1224 and SM125 monitors. These are a bit yellowed and the keyboard is thrashed. Also, the TOS is on a separate card with two leads that got loose and I don't know where they go (probably to +Vcc and a select pin). Thus, can't test the monitors or the hard disk, but the system does power on, and the hard disk does power up and makes happy hard disk noises. No idea what's on it. The SM125 puts on a power light and does appear to try to make a picture, though its previous owner separated it from its stand for some reason. The SC1224 sounds like the flyback is bad but may be serviceable. Includes ST mouse and hard disk cable. No manuals or software. If you want this unit, you need to take everything including the monitors. NOT WORKING: Breadbox NTSC Commodore 64, in original box with power supply. Last time I powered it up, it generated a garbled display that suggested either bad RAM or PLA. You get to find out. PROBABLY WORKING: Tandy Color Computer 2, in original box. Was working when stored. PARTIALLY WORKING: Quad G5 2.5GHz x2x2, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 6600. Got whacked in shipping and one side of the case is damaged. No hard disk. Does power on and starts Apple Service Diagnostics fine, but the fans roar like the MGM lion and while there is no obvious leak you will need to service the liquid cooling system -- you're not thermal calibrating your way out of this one. Has the wireless card. Aftermarket optical drive needs "help" when you eject it. Add your own USB keyboard and mouse. NOT WORKING: Macintosh SE/30 (marked "Lake Washington"). 8MB RAM. Powers on and bright display on the monitor but Simasimacs immediately. Probably fine with a recap. Case yellowed as hell. I think I removed the hard disk, but if not, hey, free hard disk. Add your own ADB keyboard and mouse. NOT WORKING: Macintosh SE/30 (marked "Clover Park"). Also used to be my file server but then Simasimaced and now doesn't put a picture on the screen at all. Undoubtedly needs a recap and may need other repairs based on the funny pulsing of the system fan when connected to power. I think it had 4MB of RAM, don't recall exactly. I think I removed the hard disk, but if not, hey, free hard disk. Add your own ADB keyboard and mouse. PARTIALLY WORKING: Sawtooth Power Mac G4 450MHz. No RAM, no video card, no hard disk. Used to be my file server but had issues with one of the PCI slots. Has optical drive and ZIP with matching Apple bezels. Does power on, but obviously without RAM or a video card (AGP) will not pass POST. Add your own USB keyboard and mouse. NOT WORKING: Quad G5 2.5GHz x2x2, 16GB RAM, Nvidia 6600. This is in better physical condition and does power on and bong but shortly afterwards puts on OVERTEMP and CHECKSTOP lights, so you definitely will have to service the LCS and possibly the processors (no obvious leaks but I haven't checked thoroughly). No wireless card, no hard disk, OEM optical drive, add your own USB keyboard and mouse. NOT WORKING: Single G5 1.8GHz, 2GB RAM, GeForce 5200. The previous owner seemed to have had a disagreement with the front panel connector and the front panel connector lost. I received it stripped to the chassis except for the processor and the logic board, but it does have the fans, video card, wireless (with T-antenna), power supply and panel cable. Because the front panel connector is busted I can't test it. You get to replace the front panel assembly and put it back together. This unit is air-cooled, but probably could benefit from reapplying thermal compound while you're at it. Has optical drive (disconnected), no hard disk, add your own USB keyboard and mouse. Various other items: Newtek Video Toaster 4000 and Video Toaster Flyer boards with a whole mess of cables (looks like SCSI and some other internal pin header-type). Don't know if these are complete and no way to test. No software. Apple II Super Serial card with DB-25 670-0020-? (uses 6551 ACIA) and Apple IIe 80 column 64K memory expansion 607-0103-K. Can't test them but both look intact. Kurta Penmouse. Serial and PS/2 connectors. Seems to have a power supply jack (9V) but I don't have the power supply and I don't know if it needs it. Can't test it, no drivers, physically intact. Sun model 411 SCSI CD-ROM. Requires caddy. Won't mount discs, might need a recap. UMAX Astra 2100U flatbed USB scanner with power supply. Powers on. Works with classic Mac OS but probably most systems. No driver disc. Pair of Telular SX5 GSM terminals. These were the server room's backup communication system. They work, but no GSM network to connect to anymore. Might be fun if you set one up. Real serial ports! Real GSM modem! Full kits with power supply. Visual UpTime Select T1 CSU/DSU. Has a Cisco V.35 cable connected and jacks for Ethernet, serial, DSX-1 and T1. Powers on, obviously goes right into Red Alarm since there's no network. You telco nerds will love it. Various complete external modem packages ranging from 14.4 to 33.6K. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 21:48:16 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 22:48:16 -0400 Subject: First new vax in ...30 years? :-) In-Reply-To: <521CB6C9-4E11-4AF1-8E00-39D4395D6B10@avanthar.com> References: <521CB6C9-4E11-4AF1-8E00-39D4395D6B10@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 9:37 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > On Jul 5, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 2:46 AM David Brownlee via cctalk > > wrote: > >> In case anyone was interested in an FPGA VAX implementation > >> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003899.html > > > > I think this is fantastic, but getting the CPU running is only the > > start. I'll be curious what/how storage emulation goes, and > > networking. Bonus points for sync serial that can run a DDCMP line to > > vintage machines. > > I found myself wondering what it would take to put this, RAM, network, and a SD Card ?Disk? on a Q-Bus board. :-) Adding a Qbus to it would certainly offload the work of implementing storage - just put it on the user to find a Qbus SCSI card or a KDA-50 or a Qbone or whatever and you wouldn't have to worry about OS drivers or (alternately) mimicking a vintage disk controller. I would hope it would use its own RAM. No point in forcing anyone to use vintage RAM. For convenience, it would be nicer to have some sort non-spinning disk rather than a $$$ vintage controller. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 6 00:21:45 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 23:21:45 -0600 Subject: First new vax in ...30 years? :-) In-Reply-To: <521CB6C9-4E11-4AF1-8E00-39D4395D6B10@avanthar.com> References: <521CB6C9-4E11-4AF1-8E00-39D4395D6B10@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <3292f2cc-38aa-fab0-568a-5203dfe272c3@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-07-05 7:37 p.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jul 5, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 2:46 AM David Brownlee via cctalk >> wrote: >>> In case anyone was interested in an FPGA VAX implementation >>> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2021/07/03/msg003899.html >> >> I think this is fantastic, but getting the CPU running is only the >> start. I'll be curious what/how storage emulation goes, and >> networking. Bonus points for sync serial that can run a DDCMP line to >> vintage machines. >> >> -ethan > > I found myself wondering what it would take to put this, RAM, network, and a SD Card ?Disk? on a Q-Bus board. :-) > > Zane > Two SD card disks. I many not have used a VAX but I still remember using a single floppy drive to copy files.Why not a real solid state drive? Real I/O devices with DMA are needed and real media storage for all the virtual memory swapping that may go on. > Ben. From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jul 5 23:36:50 2021 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 21:36:50 -0700 Subject: Atari ST & MegaFile with Minix? Message-ID: <5C4A963B-9F45-42C3-9FCF-36E67F5C52EA@typewritten.org> I was playing with ST Minix (v1.1, based on PC Minix v1.3). I didn?t have any luck with Minix (neither the boot program nor the kernel) detecting the MegaFile (60 or 30, both the same outcome) on the Mega 4. Both MegaFiles worked fine with Minix on the 1040ST. So there must be some difference (timing?) between the ST and Mega. There are some usenet posts speculating on the cause of this, as well as contradictory user reports on whether it is known to work or not. So I?m not sure what to make of this. But Minix is pretty tight in 1 MB RAM, so I would like to understand why it shouldn?t work on the Mega 4. Any Atari ST experts on the list who can shed any light on why this might be the case? ok bear. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 02:53:08 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 08:53:08 +0100 Subject: Atari ST & MegaFile with Minix? In-Reply-To: <5C4A963B-9F45-42C3-9FCF-36E67F5C52EA@typewritten.org> References: <5C4A963B-9F45-42C3-9FCF-36E67F5C52EA@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <215301d7723b$f644f430$e2cedc90$@gmail.com> Whilst I am not an Atari "expert" I still own an STE and a have owned a Mega which died and a TT which I sold. In hardware terms there is very little difference between a Mega and an ST. As far as I know, given the same memory, all the games work on both and they really exercise the hardware. The first obvious difference is 3Mb of memory but that shouldn't cause problems. The second is that I would expect a Mega to have a blitter. Not all did but could the space occupied by the blitter be a problem. Lastly has the Mega had any modifications made? That could also cause issues.. .. and I assume TOS finds the drives on both machines Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of r.stricklin via > cctech > Sent: 06 July 2021 05:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Atari ST & MegaFile with Minix? > > I was playing with ST Minix (v1.1, based on PC Minix v1.3). I didn?t have any > luck with Minix (neither the boot program nor the kernel) detecting the > MegaFile (60 or 30, both the same outcome) on the Mega 4. Both MegaFiles > worked fine with Minix on the 1040ST. > > So there must be some difference (timing?) between the ST and Mega. > There are some usenet posts speculating on the cause of this, as well as > contradictory user reports on whether it is known to work or not. So I?m not > sure what to make of this. > > But Minix is pretty tight in 1 MB RAM, so I would like to understand why it > shouldn?t work on the Mega 4. > > Any Atari ST experts on the list who can shed any light on why this might be > the case? > > ok > bear. > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 15:32:39 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 15:32:39 -0500 Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> References: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <296dc8b3-d61e-4192-3c1f-6ba80609f961@gmail.com> On 7/5/21 9:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > There is also a big Kennedy disk next to it but I don't know if they > originally went together. Just to satisfy my curiosity, is that SMD or something else? I've got at least one Q-bus SMD controller so have been keeping an eye out for drive for a few years. I am in Minnesota, however, so logistics surely a no-go; if it was close enough for me I'd be jumping on the 11/44 and also the Alpha Micro! re. Acorn RPC 700 for anyone reading, I may still have a logic board or two for these over in England. No real ETA for getting them US-side, though (and chances are that they have battery issues, too). Jules From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 6 15:57:19 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 13:57:19 -0700 Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> References: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3C2830E6-8A49-4AFE-8F91-20F9D59827FC@avanthar.com> On Jul 5, 2021, at 7:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > UMAX Astra 2100U flatbed USB scanner with power supply. Powers on. Works > with classic Mac OS but probably most systems. No driver disc. This should be usable on modern systems using ?VueScan?. For those of us that have old scanners, ?VueScan? is the greatest piece of software ever. For a one time purchase, you get free updates, and it supports pretty much all scanners, with the exception of highly specialized ones such as my Kodak Pakon F135+ (originally used in Kodak Kiosks). Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 16:06:38 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 17:06:38 -0400 Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <3C2830E6-8A49-4AFE-8F91-20F9D59827FC@avanthar.com> References: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> <3C2830E6-8A49-4AFE-8F91-20F9D59827FC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <6898573E-9FBA-4716-8D86-B5794858C15E@comcast.net> > On Jul 6, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On Jul 5, 2021, at 7:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> >> UMAX Astra 2100U flatbed USB scanner with power supply. Powers on. Works >> with classic Mac OS but probably most systems. No driver disc. > > > This should be usable on modern systems using ?VueScan?. Yes, the VueScan manual confirms that. > For those of us that have old scanners, ?VueScan? is the greatest piece of software ever. I'll second that. Very impressive, incredible breadth of support and a really good value for the money. It includes (and does well) wild stuff like scanning negatives or transparencies, something that other scanner software often claims to do but doesn't necessarily deliver. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 6 16:22:46 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 14:22:46 -0700 Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <6898573E-9FBA-4716-8D86-B5794858C15E@comcast.net> References: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> <3C2830E6-8A49-4AFE-8F91-20F9D59827FC@avanthar.com> <6898573E-9FBA-4716-8D86-B5794858C15E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jul 6, 2021, at 2:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 6, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Jul 5, 2021, at 7:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> UMAX Astra 2100U flatbed USB scanner with power supply. Powers on. Works >>> with classic Mac OS but probably most systems. No driver disc. >> >> >> This should be usable on modern systems using ?VueScan?. > > Yes, the VueScan manual confirms that. > >> For those of us that have old scanners, ?VueScan? is the greatest piece of software ever. > > I'll second that. Very impressive, incredible breadth of support and a really good value for the money. > > It includes (and does well) wild stuff like scanning negatives or transparencies, something that other scanner software often claims to do but doesn't necessarily deliver. > > paul To scan negatives or slides, you need a transparency adapter, and I believe that was optional on the scanner in question. Which reminds me, I really should dump my old UMAX S-6 with the transparency adapter (and normal lid). I?d kept it around, as it would have allowed me to scan 4x5 or 8x10 negatives (I now have an Epson scanner for 8x10 negatives). VueScan gives me results very close to SilverFast 8, with none of the headaches. If anyone is crazy enough to want a UMAX S-6 SCSI scanner that does 300 dpi, that can scan transparencies, give a shout. I used it on a PowerMac 8500/180 and a PowerMac G4/450. I haven?t used it in about 20 years, so no idea if it still works. Zane From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 16:44:10 2021 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 17:44:10 -0400 Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> References: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I'll be in Laguna Seca racing in 2 1/2 weeks and will have means to haul large stuff. Can come down your way some days before or after. I'd be happy to take the PDP-11/44 at least four disk packs lots of paper tape 8" floppies, TU58 the big Kennedy disk and the DEC VT100. Would you please let me know if this time frame will work for you, Cameron? thx jake (415)952-5372 On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 10:30 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Well, the pandemic turns everything upside down and we're looking at new > employment, a new place and probably having to slash a few things. First on > the chopping block is to consolidate and downsize storage. > > These systems and peripherals are all free to a good home; all you have to > do is pick them up. Pick up any and all, with priority given to those who > are interested in multiple units. I've tried to describe them as > completely as possible. A few items have "on your honour" conditions. I'm > also giving priority to classiccmp readers before I post public elsewhere. > > The items are in various places over the Riverside-San Bernardino area in > Southern California depending on where and when I acquired them, so send me > an off-list E-mail and we'll figure it out based on their location. > > THESE ITEMS NEED TO BE GONE IN THE NEXT MONTH. If you need a little > extra time, we can work something out; I'd rather not scrap what someone > has an interest in, but obviously with a likely move approaching, the > sooner the better. > > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > POSSIBLY WORKING: > PDP-11/44 with at least four disk packs and lots of paper tape and 8" > floppies, > sitting on top of what I think is a TU58. I never got the chance to fire > it on. > You will need a truck, probably a cart and definitely a hernia belt. There > is > also a big Kennedy disk next to it but I don't know if they originally went > together. > > POSSIBLY WORKING: > DEC VT100. This got bashed around a little and the case is a little loose, > and I don't know if it works, but it's an honest to Ford VT100. > > NOT WORKING: > Alpha Micro S-100 system. I got this when I had more money with the > intention of rehabilitating it when I had more time, and now I have less > of both. It will work for other S-100 cards. Whatever cards and devices > are in there are all yours. They are heavy steel drawers and it can take > big cards. There are two boxes; please take both. > > NOT WORKING: > Acorn RiscPC 700 and Castle Iyonix PC. Like the AM S-100 system, I got this > when I had more money but not enough time, and now I have neither. They > need specialist restoration as neither system powers on, and it doesn't > appear to be (just) the PSU. In particular, the RiscPC came to me with a > leaky board battery which may have something to do with it. Both systems > appear heavily upgraded but I don't have any inventory. If you are > interested, it is expected you will be restoring the systems and not just > turning around to part them out; there aren't that many of these machines > on > this side of the Atlantic (on your honour). Please take both units; you > will get a big box of software and RiscPC artifacts from the previous owner > as well. > > WORKING: > Snow iMac G3 (600MHz, 512MB RAM). Works fine, comes up in stock 10.3.9. > Needs > a new PRAM battery but in good shape otherwise. Add your own USB keyboard > and > mouse. This was a gift from a good buddy, so it goes to you with the > understanding you will try to find it a home if you don't want it instead > of trying to sell it (on your honour). Everyone should have the joy of an > original iMac. > > NOT WORKING: > Atari STacy, disassembled. I was working on the system to replace the > hard disk and one of the power headers got shifted which put 12V on a 5V > line. Guaranteed this liberated some magic smoke from the motherboard or > a yet-to-be-detected fuse somewhere, but the keyboard, RAM card, screen > and such were all functional at the time I effed up and probably still are. > You will get it in a fabulous Office Depot box with "STacy" written on it > using a half-dead Sharpie. > > POSSIBLY WORKING: > Mega ST4 with Megafile 60 and SC1224 and SM125 monitors. These are a bit > yellowed and the keyboard is thrashed. Also, the TOS is on a separate card > with two leads that got loose and I don't know where they go (probably to > +Vcc > and a select pin). Thus, can't test the monitors or the hard disk, but the > system does power on, and the hard disk does power up and makes happy hard > disk noises. No idea what's on it. The SM125 puts on a power light and does > appear to try to make a picture, though its previous owner separated it > from > its stand for some reason. The SC1224 sounds like the flyback is bad but > may > be serviceable. Includes ST mouse and hard disk cable. No manuals or > software. If you want this unit, you need to take everything including the > monitors. > > NOT WORKING: > Breadbox NTSC Commodore 64, in original box with power supply. Last time > I powered it up, it generated a garbled display that suggested either bad > RAM or PLA. You get to find out. > > PROBABLY WORKING: > Tandy Color Computer 2, in original box. Was working when stored. > > PARTIALLY WORKING: > Quad G5 2.5GHz x2x2, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 6600. Got whacked in shipping and one > side of the case is damaged. No hard disk. Does power on and starts Apple > Service Diagnostics fine, but the fans roar like the MGM lion and while > there > is no obvious leak you will need to service the liquid cooling system -- > you're > not thermal calibrating your way out of this one. Has the wireless card. > Aftermarket optical drive needs "help" when you eject it. Add your own USB > keyboard and mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Macintosh SE/30 (marked "Lake Washington"). 8MB RAM. Powers on and bright > display on the monitor but Simasimacs immediately. Probably fine with a > recap. > Case yellowed as hell. I think I removed the hard disk, but if not, hey, > free hard disk. Add your own ADB keyboard and mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Macintosh SE/30 (marked "Clover Park"). Also used to be my file server but > then Simasimaced and now doesn't put a picture on the screen at all. > Undoubtedly needs a recap and may need other repairs based on the funny > pulsing of the system fan when connected to power. I think it had 4MB of > RAM, > don't recall exactly. I think I removed the hard disk, but if not, hey, > free > hard disk. Add your own ADB keyboard and mouse. > > PARTIALLY WORKING: > Sawtooth Power Mac G4 450MHz. No RAM, no video card, no hard disk. Used to > be my file server but had issues with one of the PCI slots. Has optical > drive > and ZIP with matching Apple bezels. Does power on, but obviously without > RAM > or a video card (AGP) will not pass POST. Add your own USB keyboard and > mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Quad G5 2.5GHz x2x2, 16GB RAM, Nvidia 6600. This is in better physical > condition and does power on and bong but shortly afterwards puts on > OVERTEMP > and CHECKSTOP lights, so you definitely will have to service the LCS and > possibly the processors (no obvious leaks but I haven't checked > thoroughly). No > wireless card, no hard disk, OEM optical drive, add your own USB keyboard > and > mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Single G5 1.8GHz, 2GB RAM, GeForce 5200. The previous owner seemed to have > had a disagreement with the front panel connector and the front panel > connector lost. I received it stripped to the chassis except for the > processor and the logic board, but it does have the fans, video card, > wireless > (with T-antenna), power supply and panel cable. Because the front panel > connector is busted I can't test it. You get to replace the front panel > assembly and put it back together. This unit is air-cooled, but probably > could benefit from reapplying thermal compound while you're at it. Has > optical > drive (disconnected), no hard disk, add your own USB keyboard and mouse. > > > Various other items: > > Newtek Video Toaster 4000 and Video Toaster Flyer boards with a whole > mess of cables (looks like SCSI and some other internal pin header-type). > Don't know if these are complete and no way to test. No software. > > Apple II Super Serial card with DB-25 670-0020-? (uses 6551 ACIA) and > Apple IIe 80 column 64K memory expansion 607-0103-K. Can't test them but > both look intact. > > Kurta Penmouse. Serial and PS/2 connectors. Seems to have a power supply > jack (9V) but I don't have the power supply and I don't know if it needs > it. Can't test it, no drivers, physically intact. > > Sun model 411 SCSI CD-ROM. Requires caddy. Won't mount discs, might need a > recap. > > UMAX Astra 2100U flatbed USB scanner with power supply. Powers on. Works > with classic Mac OS but probably most systems. No driver disc. > > Pair of Telular SX5 GSM terminals. These were the server room's backup > communication system. They work, but no GSM network to connect to anymore. > Might be fun if you set one up. Real serial ports! Real GSM modem! Full > kits with power supply. > > Visual UpTime Select T1 CSU/DSU. Has a Cisco V.35 cable connected and > jacks for Ethernet, serial, DSX-1 and T1. Powers on, obviously goes > right into Red Alarm since there's no network. You telco nerds will love > it. > > Various complete external modem packages ranging from 14.4 to 33.6K. > > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. > -------------- > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 6 18:06:00 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 16:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <202107060230.1662UMRh16449608@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser via cctalk at "Jul 5, 21 07:30:22 pm" Message-ID: <202107062306.166N60nI17236200@floodgap.com> I'm now four reservations deep on the DEC stuff, so I think we can consider that to have a home, and a couple for the S-100 and CoCo, and the STacy is going to someone who might be able to restore it. However, the other systems are still available! List reposted below minus reserved items. Also, adding on a Solbourne S4100 (untested). I haven't looked to see what is in it, can do that for someone who is interested. > Well, the pandemic turns everything upside down and we're looking at new > employment, a new place and probably having to slash a few things. First on > the chopping block is to consolidate and downsize storage. > > These systems and peripherals are all free to a good home; all you have to > do is pick them up. Pick up any and all, with priority given to those who > are interested in multiple units. I've tried to describe them as > completely as possible. A few items have "on your honour" conditions. I'm > also giving priority to classiccmp readers before I post public elsewhere. > > The items are in various places over the Riverside-San Bernardino area in > Southern California depending on where and when I acquired them, so send me > an off-list E-mail and we'll figure it out based on their location. > > THESE ITEMS NEED TO BE GONE IN THE NEXT MONTH. If you need a little > extra time, we can work something out; I'd rather not scrap what someone > has an interest in, but obviously with a likely move approaching, the > sooner the better. > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > NOT WORKING: > Acorn RiscPC 700 and Castle Iyonix PC. Like the AM S-100 system, I got this > when I had more money but not enough time, and now I have neither. They > need specialist restoration as neither system powers on, and it doesn't > appear to be (just) the PSU. In particular, the RiscPC came to me with a > leaky board battery which may have something to do with it. Both systems > appear heavily upgraded but I don't have any inventory. If you are > interested, it is expected you will be restoring the systems and not just > turning around to part them out; there aren't that many of these machines on > this side of the Atlantic (on your honour). Please take both units; you > will get a big box of software and RiscPC artifacts from the previous owner > as well. > > WORKING: > Snow iMac G3 (600MHz, 512MB RAM). Works fine, comes up in stock 10.3.9. Needs > a new PRAM battery but in good shape otherwise. Add your own USB keyboard and > mouse. This was a gift from a good buddy, so it goes to you with the > understanding you will try to find it a home if you don't want it instead > of trying to sell it (on your honour). Everyone should have the joy of an > original iMac. > > POSSIBLY WORKING: > Mega ST4 with Megafile 60 and SC1224 and SM125 monitors. These are a bit > yellowed and the keyboard is thrashed. Also, the TOS is on a separate card > with two leads that got loose and I don't know where they go (probably to +Vcc > and a select pin). Thus, can't test the monitors or the hard disk, but the > system does power on, and the hard disk does power up and makes happy hard > disk noises. No idea what's on it. The SM125 puts on a power light and does > appear to try to make a picture, though its previous owner separated it from > its stand for some reason. The SC1224 sounds like the flyback is bad but may > be serviceable. Includes ST mouse and hard disk cable. No manuals or > software. If you want this unit, you need to take everything including the > monitors. > > NOT WORKING: > Breadbox NTSC Commodore 64, in original box with power supply. Last time > I powered it up, it generated a garbled display that suggested either bad > RAM or PLA. You get to find out. > > PARTIALLY WORKING: > Quad G5 2.5GHz x2x2, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 6600. Got whacked in shipping and one > side of the case is damaged. No hard disk. Does power on and starts Apple > Service Diagnostics fine, but the fans roar like the MGM lion and while there > is no obvious leak you will need to service the liquid cooling system -- you're > not thermal calibrating your way out of this one. Has the wireless card. > Aftermarket optical drive needs "help" when you eject it. Add your own USB > keyboard and mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Macintosh SE/30 (marked "Lake Washington"). 8MB RAM. Powers on and bright > display on the monitor but Simasimacs immediately. Probably fine with a recap. > Case yellowed as hell. I think I removed the hard disk, but if not, hey, > free hard disk. Add your own ADB keyboard and mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Macintosh SE/30 (marked "Clover Park"). Also used to be my file server but > then Simasimaced and now doesn't put a picture on the screen at all. > Undoubtedly needs a recap and may need other repairs based on the funny > pulsing of the system fan when connected to power. I think it had 4MB of RAM, > don't recall exactly. I think I removed the hard disk, but if not, hey, free > hard disk. Add your own ADB keyboard and mouse. > > PARTIALLY WORKING: > Sawtooth Power Mac G4 450MHz. No RAM, no video card, no hard disk. Used to > be my file server but had issues with one of the PCI slots. Has optical drive > and ZIP with matching Apple bezels. Does power on, but obviously without RAM > or a video card (AGP) will not pass POST. Add your own USB keyboard and mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Quad G5 2.5GHz x2x2, 16GB RAM, Nvidia 6600. This is in better physical > condition and does power on and bong but shortly afterwards puts on OVERTEMP > and CHECKSTOP lights, so you definitely will have to service the LCS and > possibly the processors (no obvious leaks but I haven't checked thoroughly). No > wireless card, no hard disk, OEM optical drive, add your own USB keyboard and > mouse. > > NOT WORKING: > Single G5 1.8GHz, 2GB RAM, GeForce 5200. The previous owner seemed to have > had a disagreement with the front panel connector and the front panel > connector lost. I received it stripped to the chassis except for the > processor and the logic board, but it does have the fans, video card, wireless > (with T-antenna), power supply and panel cable. Because the front panel > connector is busted I can't test it. You get to replace the front panel > assembly and put it back together. This unit is air-cooled, but probably > could benefit from reapplying thermal compound while you're at it. Has optical > drive (disconnected), no hard disk, add your own USB keyboard and mouse. > > > Various other items: > > Newtek Video Toaster 4000 and Video Toaster Flyer boards with a whole > mess of cables (looks like SCSI and some other internal pin header-type). > Don't know if these are complete and no way to test. No software. > > Apple II Super Serial card with DB-25 670-0020-? (uses 6551 ACIA) and > Apple IIe 80 column 64K memory expansion 607-0103-K. Can't test them but > both look intact. > > Kurta Penmouse. Serial and PS/2 connectors. Seems to have a power supply > jack (9V) but I don't have the power supply and I don't know if it needs > it. Can't test it, no drivers, physically intact. > > Sun model 411 SCSI CD-ROM. Requires caddy. Won't mount discs, might need a > recap. > > UMAX Astra 2100U flatbed USB scanner with power supply. Powers on. Works > with classic Mac OS but probably most systems. No driver disc. > > Pair of Telular SX5 GSM terminals. These were the server room's backup > communication system. They work, but no GSM network to connect to anymore. > Might be fun if you set one up. Real serial ports! Real GSM modem! Full > kits with power supply. > > Visual UpTime Select T1 CSU/DSU. Has a Cisco V.35 cable connected and > jacks for Ethernet, serial, DSX-1 and T1. Powers on, obviously goes > right into Red Alarm since there's no network. You telco nerds will love it. > > Various complete external modem packages ranging from 14.4 to 33.6K. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Even cabbage more sense than you! -- Shampoo, "Ranma 1/2" ------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 6 18:14:57 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 16:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <296dc8b3-d61e-4192-3c1f-6ba80609f961@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson via cctalk at "Jul 6, 21 03:32:39 pm" Message-ID: <202107062314.166NEvxj17432748@floodgap.com> > > There is also a big Kennedy disk next to it but I don't know if they > > originally went together. > > Just to satisfy my curiosity, is that SMD or something else? I *think* so but I'm not an expert on these things by any means. This was an attempt to gain expertise. Oh well. > re. Acorn RPC 700 for anyone reading, I may still have a logic board or two > for these over in England. No real ETA for getting them US-side, though > (and chances are that they have battery issues, too). It's still on the market if people want to give it a shot. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All generalizations are false, including this one. -- Mark Twain ----------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 19:44:38 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 19:44:38 -0500 Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal: PDP-11/44, Macs, Atari ST, RiscPC, ... In-Reply-To: <202107062314.166NEvxj17432748@floodgap.com> References: <202107062314.166NEvxj17432748@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <675cd5be-9e41-197f-efb5-785bf3308b28@gmail.com> On 7/6/21 6:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> re. Acorn RPC 700 for anyone reading, I may still have a logic board or two >> for these over in England. No real ETA for getting them US-side, though >> (and chances are that they have battery issues, too). > > It's still on the market if people want to give it a shot. Well if anyone happens to be heading from your part of the country to Minnesota in the near future and has a RPC 700-sized space in their trunk... would be happy to discuss transport fees :-) They are notorious for battery destruction - perhaps not as bad as an Amiga 4000, but I expect that's the most likely problem with it. I've actually got an original paper copy of the techref over in the UK, although I think that's all scanned in and online these days. From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Wed Jul 7 01:24:14 2021 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?utf-8?Q?St=C3=BCber?=) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 08:24:14 +0200 Subject: Lecture: How I ported Space Invaders to a video game console from 1978, 2021-07-10, 19:00 References: <20210707062413.GG5214.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: <20210707062413.GG5214@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Hi all, you're invited to the Update computer club[0] public lecture series "Updateringar"[1]! Update is a Swedish computer club founded in 1983 whose members tinker with all kinds of computers, from Raspberry Pi to PDP-12. The club has a big collection of historic computers. In this lecture series we'll talk about everything related to computers: Historic and modern computers, operating systems, programming, hardware projects, creating art with computers, building a computer museum, and more. When: 2021-07-10, 19:00 CEST Where: https://bbb.cryptoparty.se/b/upd-0mo-m2u-aq8 How I ported Space Invaders to a video game console from 1978 Bjarni walks us through his recent port of the arcade classic to the Philips Videopac, a second-generation video game console. He explains the hardware limitations and shows tricks used to get around them ? unlike in the arcade machine there is no frame buffer, and the functionality of the hardware sprites is severely constrained on the Videopac. The development of the port was done on real hardware with a home-made USB-connected game cartridge. Bjarni Juliusson (Update) The lecture is free and open to everyone. Upcoming: 2021-08-14, 19:00: The Whirlwind I. Angelo Papenhoff (Humboldt University of Berlin) Hope to see you there, Anke [0] http://www.update.uu.se/index_eng.html [1] https://www.update.uu.se/wiki/doku.php/projekt:updateringar From tyl3rhay3s at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 13:50:13 2021 From: tyl3rhay3s at gmail.com (Tyler Hayes) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 11:50:13 -0700 Subject: TeleCompaq Disks Message-ID: Hello there! Has anyone here had the TeleCompaq setup disks imaged? I see that there are a few in the CHM's possession, but besides that, no images. If so can you please send me the image files? Thanks, Tyler Hayes From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 14:21:28 2021 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:21:28 -0500 Subject: In search of RLX blade software In-Reply-To: <5DFF1FFC-3F2F-432B-A750-BA58D61A8EC1@vmssoftware.com> References: <5DFF1FFC-3F2F-432B-A750-BA58D61A8EC1@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: Camiel, I worked at RLX and found a PIII blade with hard disk. I captured the entire disk image, but it is 5GB gzipped. I don't have a fileshare big enough to post the image. Do you have a dropbox or something? I checked with some of my old coworkers at RLX, we don't have any of the rpms. Monty On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:18 AM Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?ve been given a couple of RLX blade server chassis loaded with blades > (one with Transmeta Crusoe cpu?s, and one with Pentium III cpu?s). I hope > you?ll allow me to count these as ?vintage? because of their interesting > origin: the Pentium III loaded chassis was part of a 768 node computer > cluster at the Sanger Institute in the UK, and was used in the last stretch > of the DNA sequencing computations for the Human Genome Project. > > I?d like to build a compute cluster out of these, but I don?t have the > rpm?s they supplied to customize Linux for their blades. Ideally, I?d hope > to find a copy of their ?Control Tower? blade management software, and > their customized Linux installation images, but just the bare rpm?s would > do for now. From the RLX platform guide, I?d hope to find: > > kernel-*rlx*.i386.rpm > kernel-headers-*rlx*.i386.rpm > devfsd-*rlx*.i386.rpm > ucd-snmp-*rlx*.i386.rpm > net-snmp-*rlx*.i386.rpm > ucd-snmp-utils-*rlx*.i386.rpm > net-snmp-utils-*rlx*.i386.rpm > bootctl-*rlx*.i386.rpm > atftp-*rlx*.i386.rpm > lm_sensors-*-*rlx*.i386.rpm > lm_sensors-drivers-*-*rlx*.i386.rpm > lm_sensors-devel-*-*rlx*.i386.rpm > base-utils-*rlx*.i386.rpm > runctl-*rlx*.noarch.rpm > networkcfg-*rlx*.noarch.rpm > mgmtmode-*rlx*.noarch.rpm > namedcfg-*rlx*.noarch.rpm > dhcpdcfg-*rlx*.noarch.rpm > lilo-*rlx*.i386.rpm > grub-*rlx*.i386.rpm > rlx-clientpm-*rlx*.i386.rpm > > > > This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, > confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected > information. The information is intended to be for the use of the > individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended > recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by > return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any > disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any > attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is > prohibited. > From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Fri Jul 9 15:10:21 2021 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 20:10:21 +0000 Subject: In search of RLX blade software In-Reply-To: <5DFF1FFC-3F2F-432B-A750-BA58D61A8EC1@vmssoftware.com> References: <5DFF1FFC-3F2F-432B-A750-BA58D61A8EC1@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: I have an RLX 300ex chassis with a dozen Pentium III blades that I salvaged from the scrap pile at a previous job. I did a search on the hard drive of blade 1 for any rpm package files but only found the rlx-agent-1.0.0-2.i386.rpm package, which gets installed onto the application blades when they get provisioned. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 03:23:13 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 04:23:13 -0400 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here are pictures of the HP 9000 computers for sale. I have the related terminal breakout cable, powers on to bios or similar, but doesnt boot. The one that is the rack has all the associated mounting hardware and beighe baffles to make it look as on solid flush rack. Local pickup or freight only on that one. Ill post some more interesting things for sale soon, thanks for the interest. --Devin D. On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 7:42 AM devin davison wrote: > I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The > following things are for sale : > > 3 Dec decmate computers with kb and monitor. Partway loads into the WP os > but the floppy is bad, and i dont have more > > Sgi tezro > > Hp 9000 desktop for hp -ux with cables > > Working microvax 3100 with install of vms. Vt terminal availible for sale > too to go with it. > > Hp 9000 for basic. Was used with test insturments like volt meters, relay > controllers hpib etc for process control. > Many hp keyboards with chicklet keys availible for this system > > Tandy vgm 300 monitor > > Enough crt monitors to sink a boat. Nec, viewsonic, ibm, etc. > > S100 bus computer chassis with backplane, power supply and proto boards. > > A single S100 backplane > > Isa /pci single board computer backplanes > > Isa 486 and pentium single board computers. Works standalone or with > previously mentioned backplane > > Rackmount 68k vme bus motorolla computer with floppy, hard drive and proto > boards. > > (Must be sold together will not seperate) books for like every version of > irix apple early windows maya, power animator, discreet, etc. Sgi install > cd sets. Sgi power animator cd. Studio paint. Misc hotmix cd's. > > Trs 80 model 3. No keyboard. Posts, bad floppy drive hangs up boot. Unplug > it and it works. Big / heavy. > > Dec alphastation 255 computers x3 > I had vms on them at some point. > > Wyse dumb terminal in original box > > Many televideo dumb terminals > > Ibm bladecenter h chassis with misc blades and spare fans etc. Shipping > will be expensive. > > Hp 50mhz dual trace scope 54200a. > > Working apple mac plus with kb and external 20 mb hard drive. No battery > damage. Clean. Boots. Runs. > > Im sure to find more to list. Send some offers my way and ill ship it out. > > Located in melbourne fl. > > https://mastodon.technology/@mrbill0/media? > > Most of my stuff is on my mastadon gallery, welcome to scroll through. I > can provide pictures of said machines upon request, too much to take > pictures of right now though. > > > > --Devin D. > > > > From rdbrown0au at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 07:58:40 2021 From: rdbrown0au at gmail.com (Rodney Brown) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 22:58:40 +1000 Subject: OT: SiC Radio for Venus lander Message-ID: <8e9347ab-f857-e390-3cba-a59c5a4ec418@gmail.com> Alan Mantooth, Carl-Mikael Zetterling and Ana Rusu (28 April 2021) "The Radio We Could Send to Hell: Silicon carbide radio circuits can take the volcanic heat of Venus" IEEE Spectrum https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/materials/the-radio-we-could-send-to-hell "The average surface temperature on Venus is 464 ?C, the atmosphere is dense with highly corrosive droplets of sulfuric acid, and the atmospheric pressure at the surface is about 90 times that of Earth." (Teflon melts at 327 ?C) The following thesis describes the Vulcan II chip mentioned a bit more Benavides Herrera, Maria Raquel, "An RS-485 Transceiver in a Silicon Carbide CMOS Process" (2018).Theses and Dissertations 3067 "The RS?485 was designed in a 1.2 ?m SiC CMOS process technology developed by Raytheon Systems Limited (UK) called High Temperature Silicon Carbide (HiTSiC?). The components available in this process include: NMOS and PMOS devices, on-chip resistors, diodes, and capacitors. The process key features are given below: ? 4H-SiC process ? N-type substrate ? Supply voltage of 15 V 5? Single metal layer, two layers of polysilicon (one being high sheet resistance poly) ? Operating temperatures greater than 300?C" ... --- In 1988's 1.2?m CMOS process the MIPS R3010 floating-point coprocessor was about 75,000 transistors on an ~8mm x 8mm die. Are there markets for SiC CMOS devices with large transistor counts? Watching Curious Marc's video mentioning Triton missile/Saturn V bit-serial computer implementations, reminded me of: Olof Kindgren (2019) Bit by bit - How to fit 8 RISC-V cores in a $38 FPGA board https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/12.15-SERV-Zurich-Copy.pdf https://github.com/olofk/serv "SERV is an award-winning bit-serial RISC-V core" (RV32I) (Not an engineer - guessing) If process limits mean large SiC memories are unlikely, what other technologies would work in the 400?500?C temperature range? Magnetic bubble memory? Twistors if threading cores automatically remains infeasible? For cameras could you build vacuum tube sensors containing SiC devices if useful? From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jul 10 09:27:34 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 10:27:34 -0400 Subject: OT: SiC Radio for Venus lander In-Reply-To: <8e9347ab-f857-e390-3cba-a59c5a4ec418@gmail.com> References: <8e9347ab-f857-e390-3cba-a59c5a4ec418@gmail.com> Message-ID: <226FF00C-A256-489A-9647-EC83763010A1@comcast.net> > On Jul 10, 2021, at 8:58 AM, Rodney Brown via cctalk wrote: > > Alan Mantooth, Carl-Mikael Zetterling and Ana Rusu (28 April 2021) > "The Radio We Could Send to Hell: Silicon carbide radio circuits can take the volcanic heat of Venus" IEEE Spectrum > https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/materials/the-radio-we-could-send-to-hell > > "The average surface temperature on Venus is 464 ?C, the atmosphere is dense with highly corrosive droplets of sulfuric acid, and the atmospheric pressure at the surface is about 90 times that of Earth." > (Teflon melts at 327 ?C) Decomposes, actually. I saw some articles about high temperature semiconductors a couple of years ago. Those were just ring oscillators, a proof of concept that SSI was possible. > The following thesis describes the Vulcan II chip mentioned a bit more > Benavides Herrera, Maria Raquel, "An RS-485 Transceiver in a Silicon Carbide CMOS Process" (2018).Theses and Dissertations 3067 > > "The RS?485 was designed in a 1.2 ?m SiC CMOS process technology developed by > Raytheon Systems Limited (UK) called High Temperature Silicon Carbide (HiTSiC?). > The components available in this process include: NMOS and PMOS devices, > on-chip resistors, diodes, and capacitors. > The process key features are given below: > ? 4H-SiC process > ? N-type substrate > ? Supply voltage of 15 V > 5? Single metal layer, two layers of polysilicon (one being high sheet resistance poly) > ? Operating temperatures greater than 300?C" ... Curious that they called it RS-485, which is a serial link transmission standard. "Greater than 300 C" is quite a lot below 464 C, though. > --- > In 1988's 1.2?m CMOS process the MIPS R3010 floating-point coprocessor was about > 75,000 transistors on an ~8mm x 8mm die. > Are there markets for SiC CMOS devices with large transistor counts? Doesn't seem likely. SiC is great for heat tolerance, so it's used in high power devices. But that's not normally a consideration for VLSI. > Watching Curious Marc's video mentioning Triton missile/Saturn V bit-serial > computer implementations, reminded me of: > > Olof Kindgren (2019) Bit by bit - How to fit 8 RISC-V cores in a $38 FPGA board > https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/12.15-SERV-Zurich-Copy.pdf > https://github.com/olofk/serv "SERV is an award-winning bit-serial RISC-V core" (RV32I) > > (Not an engineer - guessing) > If process limits mean large SiC memories are unlikely, what other technologies > would work in the 400?500?C temperature range? Magnetic bubble memory? Twistors > if threading cores automatically remains infeasible? Magnetic memory -- bubble, core, or whatever, including core rope ROM -- would require a core material with a Curie temperature well above 460 C. A quick look says that "ferrite" has a Curie temperature of 450 C but several other magnetic materials go much higher. That statement is puzzling though, because there isn't such a thing as "ferrite", rather there are a large number of ferrite type materials with different magnetic characteristics. > For cameras could you build vacuum tube sensors containing SiC devices if useful? Vacuum tube sensors could be vidicons or the like, but the question is what the leakage characteristics of photo-emission targets look like at that temperature. If the leakage is too great the scan rate would have to go way up to catch the picture before the charges leak away. That suggests something else: if indeed leakage at those temperatures is reasonable, Williams tube or Selectron tube memories could be used. Now *that* would be a classic computer fan's delight. For that matter, if SiC integrated circuits can't handle Venus, there are always tubes. Those can be made quite small -- some of us are old enough to remember Nuvistors and acorn tubes. And it would be possible to build integrated circuits -- tiny versions of the Loewe NF3, with a bunch of tube electrode systems as well as the needed passive component all inside one vacuum enclosure. paul From classiccmp at jouhe.org Sun Jul 11 03:37:59 2021 From: classiccmp at jouhe.org (Classic CMP) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:37:59 +0100 Subject: Help Identifying Mystery SBUS Cards Message-ID: Hello all, I was hoping to tap into the considerable Sun Microsystems experience within this group. I picked up a significant quantity of Sun SPARC equipment back in the early 00?s and due to life/children/etc. have only recently been able to start cataloguing it. In particular, I had a somewhat tatty box full of assorted SBUS cards. Amongst the usual GX / TGX frame buffers, ethernet and narrow SCSI cards were some more unusual ones I?ve struggled to identify. I have photographed (poorly, I only have my mobile phone camera) the items, and they can be viewed here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kv42ig8nucikt0p/AAAKMZkqn9r19Ti0yKllQ2g8a?dl=0 Here is a text description of the cards, in case it can be useful: (1) A dual-width SBUS card with no internal or external interfaces or backplate. Other features include 2x LSI chips 'LIA7321 EK7B7483' and 'LIA6371 EK7B7484? and a sticker displaying '7B7488 011 0110-014 0643 1700556 9651? a barcode ?J0BAW?. I wondered if it might be a DSP of some kind? (2) A dual width SBUS framebuffer, with space for a piggyback daughter SBUS card in the middle. It features 3 x Bt457 RAMDACs and an Actel A1020A chip. (3) A 3M fibre card, looks like a prototype based on the number of bodge wires. FDDI? Marked '3M ASSY 78-8095-5382-5', ROM marked FOSSIL BD. 1AS8. (4) Possible Serial card with a DB9 connector, although there?s WAY too much logic for a simple serial card. Has a jumper for 4Mhz / 16Mhz which hints at maybe something Token-ring? (5) A SBUS card with S-Video and what I assume to be composite. Looks like a 501-3019 on first inspection but there?s less logic and no heatsink on board. (6) A rather beautiful (to look at) SBUS card by Performance Technologies Inc. This one strikes me as a multi-port serial card although I don?t have the breakout HD80 lead for it. Has a chip marked 820P010201 HG62S038R02F 9120, a sticker ?120P010001' and on the back of the board '#595801-01 DC 9116 NT2V0 94V0' and '124-010000?. Any insight would be gratefully received! Thanks, Austin. From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 09:33:39 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:33:39 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals and assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment :). 1) Qbus scsi card 2) Emulex TC01 3) QBUS bus probe 4) SD2SCSI 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front panels, etc... 11) ESDI disk emulator Thank you! -Eric From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Sun Jul 11 10:36:53 2021 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 11:36:53 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying Mystery SBUS Cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8845d57f-9b46-ee66-3b60-b7cc34dd9299@personalprojects.net> On 2021-07-11 4:37 a.m., Classic CMP via cctalk wrote: > > (2) A dual width SBUS framebuffer, with space for a piggyback daughter > SBUS card in the middle. It features 3 x Bt457 RAMDACs and an Actel > A1020A chip. Possibly part of the "SPARC Card TV" partially described here: http://www.hyperstation.de/SBus-Framebuffer/SPARC_Card_TV/sparc_card_tv.html You seem to be missing the upper board, though. > (4) Possible Serial card with a DB9 connector, although there?s WAY too > much logic for a simple serial card. Has a jumper for 4Mhz / 16Mhz > which hints at maybe something Token-ring? Most likely Sun's "TRI/S" token ring interface, 501-1932. https://shrubbery.net/~heas/sun-feh-2_1/Devices/Communication/COMM_TRI_S.html > (5) A SBUS card with S-Video and what I assume to be composite. Looks > like a 501-3019 on first inspection but there?s less logic and no > heatsink on board. Probably the earlier Sun VideoPix (501-1706) in that case. https://shrubbery.net/~heas/sun-feh-2_1/Devices/Graphics/GRAPH_VideoPix.html From rshepprd at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 10:49:45 2021 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 11:49:45 -0400 Subject: Help Identifying Mystery SBUS Cards Message-ID: <60eb131b.1c69fb81.93078.28ad@mx.google.com> The only thing I got from the FCCID (GWV 76CG3) on the ?SVideo with Composite? was ?Color Frame Buffer I/O Card? Richard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 19:57:06 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 19:57:06 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, I am in central texas :) Thanks! On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 9:33 AM Eric Moore wrote: > Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals and > assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment :). > > 1) Qbus scsi card > 2) Emulex TC01 > 3) QBUS bus probe > 4) SD2SCSI > 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches > 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal > 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) > 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar > 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL > 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front > panels, etc... > 11) ESDI disk emulator > > Thank you! > > -Eric > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 14:45:58 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:45:58 -0400 Subject: TECO Message-ID: <2D744746-9F21-41A5-B413-3A94FC1483C4@comcast.net> For the TECO fans out there this might be of interest: https://github.com/pkoning2/pyteco paul From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 09:09:47 2021 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:09:47 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 19:57:06 -0500 > From: Eric Moore > To: Classic Computers > Subject: Re: Items Wanted > Message-ID: > < > CAE1er56kMOyVeQ4eorgS8fUjHRrCKy_T7DAwTUpebFJAWSO2gA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Also, I am in central texas :) > > Thanks! > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 9:33 AM Eric Moore wrote: > > > Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals and > > assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment > :). > > > > 1) Qbus scsi card > > 2) Emulex TC01 > > 3) QBUS bus probe > > 4) SD2SCSI > > 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches > > 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal > > 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) > > 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar > > 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL > > 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front > > panels, etc... > > 11) ESDI disk emulator > > > > Thank you! > > > > -Eric > > > > > > > > Eric, I'm on NW side of Houston and have a Siemens T100 teleprinter with stand in my garage that needs a new home :) It is untested, but too heavy to ship. Monty From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 09:14:00 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:14:00 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh wow! I have an ASR33 I have been working on that goes with my SEL 810A, but it is in rough shape. I will ping you off list, thanks for getting back to me :) -Eric On Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:10 AM Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > > > > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 19:57:06 -0500 > > From: Eric Moore > > To: Classic Computers > > Subject: Re: Items Wanted > > Message-ID: > > < > > CAE1er56kMOyVeQ4eorgS8fUjHRrCKy_T7DAwTUpebFJAWSO2gA at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > Also, I am in central texas :) > > > > Thanks! > > > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 9:33 AM Eric Moore wrote: > > > > > Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals > and > > > assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment > > :). > > > > > > 1) Qbus scsi card > > > 2) Emulex TC01 > > > 3) QBUS bus probe > > > 4) SD2SCSI > > > 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches > > > 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal > > > 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) > > > 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar > > > 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL > > > 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front > > > panels, etc... > > > 11) ESDI disk emulator > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > -Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric, > > I'm on NW side of Houston and have a Siemens T100 teleprinter with stand in > my garage that needs a new home :) > > It is untested, but too heavy to ship. > > Monty > From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 09:23:18 2021 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:23:18 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds good! On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 9:14 AM Eric Moore wrote: > Oh wow! I have an ASR33 I have been working on that goes with my SEL 810A, > but it is in rough shape. > > I will ping you off list, thanks for getting back to me :) > > -Eric > > > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:10 AM Monty McGraw via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 19:57:06 -0500 >> > From: Eric Moore >> > To: Classic Computers >> > Subject: Re: Items Wanted >> > Message-ID: >> > < >> > CAE1er56kMOyVeQ4eorgS8fUjHRrCKy_T7DAwTUpebFJAWSO2gA at mail.gmail.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> > >> > Also, I am in central texas :) >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 9:33 AM Eric Moore >> wrote: >> > >> > > Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals >> and >> > > assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment >> > :). >> > > >> > > 1) Qbus scsi card >> > > 2) Emulex TC01 >> > > 3) QBUS bus probe >> > > 4) SD2SCSI >> > > 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches >> > > 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal >> > > 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) >> > > 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar >> > > 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL >> > > 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front >> > > panels, etc... >> > > 11) ESDI disk emulator >> > > >> > > Thank you! >> > > >> > > -Eric >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > Eric, >> >> I'm on NW side of Houston and have a Siemens T100 teleprinter with stand >> in >> my garage that needs a new home :) >> >> It is untested, but too heavy to ship. >> >> Monty >> > From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Jul 13 09:29:59 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:29:59 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Teletype Model 43 with paper tape reader/punch side unit. It is available and located in NW Indiana if anyone is interested. --tom On 7/13/21 9:23 AM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > Sounds good! > > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 9:14 AM Eric Moore wrote: > >> Oh wow! I have an ASR33 I have been working on that goes with my SEL 810A, >> but it is in rough shape. >> >> I will ping you off list, thanks for getting back to me :) >> >> -Eric >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:10 AM Monty McGraw via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>>> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 19:57:06 -0500 >>>> From: Eric Moore >>>> To: Classic Computers >>>> Subject: Re: Items Wanted >>>> Message-ID: >>>> < >>>> CAE1er56kMOyVeQ4eorgS8fUjHRrCKy_T7DAwTUpebFJAWSO2gA at mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >>>> >>>> Also, I am in central texas :) >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 9:33 AM Eric Moore >>> wrote: >>>>> Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals >>> and >>>>> assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment >>>> :). >>>>> 1) Qbus scsi card >>>>> 2) Emulex TC01 >>>>> 3) QBUS bus probe >>>>> 4) SD2SCSI >>>>> 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches >>>>> 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal >>>>> 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) >>>>> 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar >>>>> 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL >>>>> 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front >>>>> panels, etc... >>>>> 11) ESDI disk emulator >>>>> >>>>> Thank you! >>>>> >>>>> -Eric >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Eric, >>> I'm on NW side of Houston and have a Siemens T100 teleprinter with stand >>> in >>> my garage that needs a new home :) >>> >>> It is untested, but too heavy to ship. >>> >>> Monty >>> From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 12:33:46 2021 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 17:33:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> Started work on putting together a couple of VAX6000. 4x0 and 5x0. Looking for spare XMI, VAXBI, Cab kits DSSI,Ethernet,CI, Storage arrays, spare regulators etc. Will travel the Northeast for larger items.Also Engineering drawings as the ones on Bitsavers are really hard to read. Thanks,Brian. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 14:30:04 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 20:30:04 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm testing a little BlueSCSI adapter (BlueSCSI ) which while being aimed at 68K Macs should also work as an 8 bit target for older VAXen, it's a newer cheaper SCSI2SD solution and I should point out it works as intended on a Mac Plus so the module itself is fine. Nobody appears to have tested on small VAXen yet so tonight I dug out my VLC to give it a go. Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the console program'. Clearly the DALLAS has passed the TOY tests, but if it's not happy would that stop the console displaying? It doesn't matter how I set S3, next step I guess is to hook it up to a 'proper' VT. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 13 14:39:13 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 12:39:13 -0700 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC5E27F-FA3B-42C4-9E82-A642CDEC018E@avanthar.com> As far as I can tell, the VLC and Model 60 will boot with a dead DALLAS chip, the Model 90 *WILL NOT* (it hangs on the tests). Having said that, I think you need to leave the VLC plugged in for a bit. It took 2-3 tries to get things going. When I did all my testing about a month and a half ago, I used a VT320. I?m not sure if I?ve ever tried to talk to a VAXstation with anything other than a DEC terminal. I swapped out my VLC and Model 90 SCSI drives with SCSI2SD boards, I still need to do that with one Model 60, and one AlphaStation. Zane > On Jul 13, 2021, at 12:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I'm testing a little BlueSCSI adapter (BlueSCSI ) which > while being aimed at 68K Macs should also work as an 8 bit target for older > VAXen, it's a newer cheaper SCSI2SD solution and I should point out it > works as intended on a Mac Plus so the module itself is fine. > > Nobody appears to have tested on small VAXen yet so tonight I dug out my > VLC to give it a go. > > Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get > nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC > which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up > (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and > end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the > console program'. > > Clearly the DALLAS has passed the TOY tests, but if it's not happy would > that stop the console displaying? It doesn't matter how I set S3, next step > I guess is to hook it up to a 'proper' VT. > > Cheers, > > -- > Adrian Graham > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 13 15:16:46 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:16:46 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/07/2021 20:30, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Clearly the DALLAS has passed the TOY tests, but if it's not happy would > that stop the console displaying? It doesn't matter how I set S3, next step > I guess is to hook it up to a 'proper' VT. > My VS4000-60 has a DALLAS chip that is either dead or not working very well: it will not remember settings at all. It boots fine using a VT420 and it also boots fine with a monitor/keyboard connected. Do you get *any* output on the console at all? The easiest thing to try would be a known good VT terminal, then you don't have to worry about the H8571-? being the correct "-?" for your config (ISTR that there are a number of variants, each subtly different). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 16:34:45 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 17:34:45 -0400 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/13/2021 3:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm testing a little BlueSCSI adapter (BlueSCSI ) which > while being aimed at 68K Macs should also work as an 8 bit target for older > VAXen, it's a newer cheaper SCSI2SD solution and I should point out it > works as intended on a Mac Plus so the module itself is fine. > > Nobody appears to have tested on small VAXen yet so tonight I dug out my > VLC to give it a go. > > Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get > nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC > which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up > (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and > end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the > console program'. > > Clearly the DALLAS has passed the TOY tests, but if it's not happy would > that stop the console displaying? It doesn't matter how I set S3, next step > I guess is to hook it up to a 'proper' VT. > > Cheers, > There are 2 ways to have a console on the VAX4000/VLC.? A switch on the back selects either; (1) graphics console mode, or (2) terminal attached to the serial port.? It sounds like you have the switch set to graphics console mode, in that case you get nothing from the serial port. I can't remember where the switch is on the back, bitsavers or someone who remembers can help. Doug From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 13 17:20:19 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 23:20:19 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/07/2021 22:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/2021 3:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get >> nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC >> which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up >> (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the >> tests and >> end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the >> console program'. >> > There are 2 ways to have a console on the VAX4000/VLC.? A switch on > the back selects either; (1) graphics console mode, or (2) terminal > attached to the serial port.? It sounds like you have the switch set > to graphics console mode, in that case you get nothing from the serial > port. > > I can't remember where the switch is on the back, bitsavers or someone > who remembers can help. > > Doug > If you look from the front it's on the right hand side and marked "S3", between the grey reset switch and the keyboard connector. I think that S3 needs to be UP otherwise it would expect a monitor and keyboard to be attached. The MMJ connector is on the back (but obviously Adrian has found that ... or he's pushed really, really hard into either the keyboard connector or the phone connector :-)) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 13 19:38:39 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 17:38:39 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> On Jul 13, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > Started work on putting together a couple of VAX6000. 4x0 and 5x0. Looking for spare XMI, VAXBI, Cab kits DSSI,Ethernet,CI, Storage arrays, spare regulators etc. Will travel the Northeast for larger items.Also Engineering drawings as the ones on Bitsavers are really hard to read. > Thanks,Brian. I?m impressed! What are the power requirements? I?ve only ever seen one VAX 6000 it was in a Datacenter I had hardware in 20 years ago. I?ve recently become interested in getting a VAX 4000, though I keep trying to convince myself it would be crazy. Zane From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jul 13 21:05:44 2021 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 03:05:44 +0100 Subject: Looking for Maxtor LXT/MXT series firmware updates / docs Message-ID: Hi folks, Has anyone happened to squirrel away a copy of the Maxtor/Sequel LXT or MXT series documentation or firmware updates? I've got an LXT200A sat on the bench which seems to have corrupted on-disk firmware -- the firmware version is shown as "1.02BROM" I've got an identical second drive which works but has bad sectors, which identifies as "1.02BHAT". I'm hoping to dump the on-disk firmware on the working one and load it onto the dead one -- either onto disk or temporarily into RAM... high hopes I know. This is all an experimental thing - the local data recovery firms aren't interested in a drive this old or this small... If anyone has a mirror of Maxtor's old FTP site or support BBS, these are some of the files I'm after... MXTA_53.EXE MAIN 41K 03/94 MXT540A/AL Frimware Rev 5.3 firmware 540 MXTA_54.EXE MAIN 40K 03/94 MXT540A/AL Firmware Rev 5.4 Firmware Upgrade for MXT-540AT. MXTA_55.EXE MAIN 40K 03/94 MXT540A/AL Firmware Rev 5.5 Firmware Upgrade for MXT-540AT. MXTA_60.EXE MAIN 41K 03/94 MXT540A/AL Firmware Rev 6.0 Firmware Upgrade for MXT-540AT. Alternatively the same covering the LXT series. Or this (or similar) documents covering the LXT series: MAXTOR LXT-200A TECHNICAL MANUAL 1019707 Cheers Phil. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:21:18 2021 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 02:21:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Its going to be interesting for sure. I am currently running some better power into the shop. The requirements for the 6000 is 3 phase. I just finished reassembling the power inlet box and I'm pretty sure it will run fine on 2 phases. I had to trace the right phases to energize the contactor and power the convenience outlets. I really want to find some engineering drawings for it. The drawings on bitsavers helped a lot but some parts are blurry and unreadable. I love the big iron. I had no choice at the time but I regret getting rid of my 780. I contacted the guy who has it now recently and after 7 years he's getting ready to start work on it. I actually think I have some 4000 parts in the archives somewhere.Let me know if you get one. I really wish there was a hobby emulator for the 6000. The Charon emulator looks pretty robust but commercial only. On Tuesday, July 13, 2021, 8:38:43 PM EDT, Zane Healy wrote: On Jul 13, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > Started work on putting together a couple of VAX6000. 4x0 and 5x0. Looking for spare XMI, VAXBI, Cab kits DSSI,Ethernet,CI, Storage arrays, spare regulators etc. Will travel the Northeast for larger items.Also Engineering drawings as the ones on Bitsavers are really hard to read. > Thanks,Brian. I?m impressed!? What are the power requirements?? I?ve only ever seen one VAX 6000 it was in a Datacenter I had hardware in 20 years ago. I?ve recently become interested in getting a VAX 4000, though I keep trying to convince myself it would be crazy. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 21:31:17 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 22:31:17 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 10:21 PM Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > Its going to be interesting for sure. I am currently running some better power into the shop. The requirements for the 6000 is 3 phase. I just finished reassembling the power inlet box and I'm pretty sure it will run fine on 2 phases. I had to trace the right phases to energize the contactor and power the convenience outlets. My memory for most of the larger VAXen is that they balanced power supplies across the phases, and *might* have used 3-phase blower motors in the biggest boxes (8800 for example). Definitely check wiring, but the 6000 series may well have single-phase blowers. When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a machine with a Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a 3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a 3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at that stage of the company). -ethan From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 22:09:21 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 22:09:21 -0500 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7878d460-174b-6d33-1579-fb34a29acd88@gmail.com> Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm testing a little BlueSCSI adapter (BlueSCSI ) which > while being aimed at 68K Macs should also work as an 8 bit target for older > VAXen, it's a newer cheaper SCSI2SD solution and I should point out it > works as intended on a Mac Plus so the module itself is fine. If my understanding of the BlueSCSI and SCSI2SD emulators is right, one big difference is that only SCSI2SD v. 6.0 supports synchronous transfers; all others do not.? I don't know if a 4000/VLC needs that feature or not. > Nobody appears to have tested on small VAXen yet so tonight I dug out my > VLC to give it a go. > > Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get > nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC > which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up > (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and > end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the > console program'. > > Clearly the DALLAS has passed the TOY tests, but if it's not happy would > that stop the console displaying? It doesn't matter how I set S3, next step > I guess is to hook it up to a 'proper' VT. IIRC, in my 4000/60, the MMJ console port is actually RS-422, which would require a proper adapter for it to work with a 232 terminal; is that what the H8571 does?? I use mine with a vt320. Carlos. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 22:27:08 2021 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 03:27:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2109891798.17135.1626233228386@mail.yahoo.com> . >My memory for most of the larger VAXen is that they balanced power >supplies across the phases, and *might* have used 3-phase blower >motors in the biggest boxes (8800 for example).? Definitely check >wiring, but the 6000 series may well have single-phase blowers. Should be good there. They are at least single phase and might even be DC. >When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a machine with a >Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a >3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just >tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a >3-phase outlet for it.? It never sat on our datacenter floor as a >result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a >daily driver.? Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at >that stage of the company). I'm sure its going to be a pretty good heater this winter in my small shop.Running solo should not be too bad. Less than 5A I remember reading somewhere.Of course if I keep adding processor modules and/or an RA92 or two I can see that changing.If I can leave it running I'll add it to my other Hecnet machines(emulated) Brian. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jul 13 22:34:55 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 23:34:55 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a machine with a > Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a > 3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just > tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a > 3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a > result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a > daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at > that stage of the company). Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) C From spam at hell.org Tue Jul 13 17:39:57 2021 From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 22:39:57 +0000 Subject: IBM 534 data entry (Keypunch) machine for sale near Spokane, WA Message-ID: Just saw this on CraigsList - not my ad. It might be worth someone grabbing before it goes to a scraper. https://spokane.craigslist.org/sop/d/spokane-ibm-card-punch-machine/7331662699.html -mike From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 02:32:35 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 08:32:35 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> > On 13 Jul 2021, at 23:20, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 13/07/2021 22:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/13/2021 3:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get >>> nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC >>> which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up >>> (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and >>> end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the >>> console program'. >>> >> There are 2 ways to have a console on the VAX4000/VLC. A switch on the back selects either; (1) graphics console mode, or (2) terminal attached to the serial port. It sounds like you have the switch set to graphics console mode, in that case you get nothing from the serial port. >> >> I can't remember where the switch is on the back, bitsavers or someone who remembers can help. >> >> Doug >> > If you look from the front it's on the right hand side and marked "S3", between the grey reset switch and the keyboard connector. I think that S3 needs to be UP otherwise it would expect a monitor and keyboard to be attached. > > The MMJ connector is on the back (but obviously Adrian has found that ... or he's pushed really, really hard into either the keyboard connector or the phone connector :-)) Bear in mind I?m an old DEC head and have been since the early 80s ;) Though I HAVE seen customers get RJ11 cables jammed in MMJ ports before, because ?they look alike?. Both of you missed my sentence where I said ?It doesn?t matter what position I have S3 in?, and IIRC even with S3 set to graphics you would still get a dead sergeant on a VT once init had completed, you just wouldn?t see POST. Anyway, I?ll hook up a VT today at some point and see if anything happens. Cheers -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 06:43:14 2021 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:43:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1031807640.71153.1626262994067@mail.yahoo.com> ? >Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have >noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 >phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 >circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) The 6000 is not like that. After the inlet box the three phases go to the power conditioner which has a 3-phase thyristor controlled rectifier. From there its 300v up to the regulators. I remember my 11/780 was like you described. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 08:21:05 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:21:05 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a machine with a >> Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a >> 3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just >> tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a >> 3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a >> result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a >> daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at >> that stage of the company). > > Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are examples as well. Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run capacitors. (There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is single phase, balanced.) If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter" will do the job easily. I have suggested in the past that three phase power supplies could run from those, but others have pointed out I overlooked some issues. So that's probably not a good idea. If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or other non-motor power consumers, the best answer is probably a "rotary converter". You can find those in machine tool supply catalogs. Basically they are a three phase motor equipped with run capacitors so they can be fed single phase power; the three phase power needed is then taken off the three motor terminals. You can think of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in a sense, for those of you who remember electronics that old. :-) Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for motors, it seems they aren't much more than run capacitors in a box. They won't help you for anything other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very good. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:39:23 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:39:23 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The LSSM, VCFed and System Source acquired a large collection of VAX hardware couple of years ago and divided it up for their various museums (6000? 7000?). There is very little about it online, but I have seen the portions that made it to vcfed and System Source. If it wasn't a very large 6000 array, it was something contemporary and there was a plethora of terminals, parts, cabinets that would have been 6000-compatible. You should ask someone at VCFed to take a look at what they have in the warehouse. Also the Rhode Island computer museum may have some 6000 stuff, I was just there. Bill On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 9:21 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a machine with a > >> Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a > >> 3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just > >> tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a > >> 3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a > >> result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a > >> daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at > >> that stage of the company). > > > > Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have > noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 phase > to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits. > Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) > > A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are > examples as well. > > Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run > capacitors. (There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is > single phase, balanced.) > > If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter" will do the job > easily. I have suggested in the past that three phase power supplies could > run from those, but others have pointed out I overlooked some issues. So > that's probably not a good idea. > > If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or other non-motor > power consumers, the best answer is probably a "rotary converter". You can > find those in machine tool supply catalogs. Basically they are a three > phase motor equipped with run capacitors so they can be fed single phase > power; the three phase power needed is then taken off the three motor > terminals. You can think of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in > a sense, for those of you who remember electronics that old. :-) > > Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for motors, it seems > they aren't much more than run capacitors in a box. They won't help you > for anything other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very good. > > paul > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 08:54:55 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:54:55 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <1031807640.71153.1626262994067@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> <1031807640.71153.1626262994067@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 14, 2021, at 7:43 AM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have >> noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 >> phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 >> circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) > > > The 6000 is not like that. After the inlet box the three phases go to the power conditioner which has a 3-phase thyristor controlled rectifier. From there its 300v up to the regulators. I remember my 11/780 was like you described. That helps. It may be that feeding it single phase power (220 presumably) would be good enough, it just means one leg of the three phase rectifier isn't active. If you're sufficiently below the design max power that should work. If you really need to drive all legs, and the power conditioner is an adequate low pass filter, a VFC may be safe to feed it; if not, a rotary converter will do the job. Incidentally. for those who do have disk drives with three phase motors: as the manual points out, the phase order is critical for those. If you get it wrong the drive will spin in the wrong direction. You need to catch that before the drive spins up much; the pack might unscrew and/or the heads crash. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 14 08:56:11 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:56:11 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <1031807640.71153.1626262994067@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> <1031807640.71153.1626262994067@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5ba70a19-350c-1b78-4323-301c5d746539@alembic.crystel.com> > The 6000 is not like that. After the inlet box the three phases go to the power conditioner which has a 3-phase thyristor controlled rectifier. From there its 300v up to the regulators. I remember my 11/780 was like you described. Oh, that shouldn't be too bad then: Most good networking power supplies step the 120/208/240 input up to a 300v interstage voltage before feeding the various supplies (48v, 12v, etc). In fact I have taken Cisco 6009 power supplies apart to get the juicy 300v for building a quick and dirty pack charger for my truck (you can mod the supply to deliver up to 390v constant voltage instead of 300v). So get a few of these, have them power the 300v rail and you're in business. The older Vaxes had linear power supplies if I recall up to the time of the Decsystem/2020 (when they went switching at last) C From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jul 14 11:33:56 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:33:56 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> On 7/14/21 6:21 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >>> When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a machine with a >>> Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was definitely a >>> 3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial setting, I just >>> tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and wired up a >>> 3-phase outlet for it. It never sat on our datacenter floor as a >>> result, but it really only ever had one purpose and that wasn't a >>> daily driver. Too much power, too much heat for so few employees (at >>> that stage of the company). >> Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like you I have noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull 120 volt legs off the 3 phase to balance power loads. So you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits. Outside of say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) > A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are examples as well. > > Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run capacitors. (There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is single phase, balanced.) > > If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter" will do the job easily. I have suggested in the past that three phase power supplies could run from those, but others have pointed out I overlooked some issues. So that's probably not a good idea. > > If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or other non-motor power consumers, the best answer is probably a "rotary converter". You can find those in machine tool supply catalogs. Basically they are a three phase motor equipped with run capacitors so they can be fed single phase power; the three phase power needed is then taken off the three motor terminals. You can think of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in a sense, for those of you who remember electronics that old. :-) > > Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for motors, it seems they aren't much more than run capacitors in a box. They won't help you for anything other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very good. > > paul I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters". * They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load * They typically don't have great frequency regulation as they are really designed for machine tools (which are pretty tolerant) so if the load varies, the frequency will vary until the "mass" catches up I did a fair amount of investigation of this in order to power the peripherals for my IBM 4331.? The peripherals in total require on the order of 21KVA of 3-phase power and with them (printer, card reader/punch and tape drives) the load will vary *a lot) which would screw up the DASD (string of 3340 drives and some 3350 clones). I ended up looking at a solid state phase converter (takes in 220v single phase and produces 208v 3-phase).? It has a good (< 1% frequency regulation) and only consumed 100W at idle.? Plus it's relatively small and quiet.? The downside is cost (~$5000). -- TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 11:50:48 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:50:48 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <89438ED3-62AE-4BCA-882E-FBE3D8162EAC@comcast.net> > On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters". > > * They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load Really? That seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run capacitors. Just like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A normal motor spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome electrical, magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large. Can you cite a source for this? > * They typically don't have great frequency regulation as they are > really designed for machine tools (which are pretty tolerant) so if > the load varies, the frequency will vary until the "mass" catches up They have no frequency regulation at all; what comes out of the third wire is a phase shifted version of the line input. You may be thinking about motor-generators, where the output frequency is defined by the construction of the generator section and how fast it spins. Yes, under high load those will slow down some, reducing the output frequency. > I did a fair amount of investigation of this in order to power the peripherals for my IBM 4331. The peripherals in total require on the order of 21KVA of 3-phase power and with them (printer, card reader/punch and tape drives) the load will vary *a lot) which would screw up the DASD (string of 3340 drives and some 3350 clones). Yes, I would expect that. Power supplies would not care much. Another example is the CDC 6000 series, which uses 400 Hz M/G sets feeding power supplies. The disk drives run off mains power, so any M/G speed variations is not a factor. > I ended up looking at a solid state phase converter (takes in 220v single phase and produces 208v 3-phase). It has a good (< 1% frequency regulation) and only consumed 100W at idle. Plus it's relatively small and quiet. The downside is cost (~$5000). $5000 ??? I have a VFC on my lathe (3 hp rating, so about 2 kW electric). It cost only $150 or so as I recall -- TECO Westinghouse brand. I think they are still around. That particular model was rated for single phase input. Larger ones are not, though I'm told that they still work if connected that way (220 to two of the input terminals and the third left open) at reduced rating. Here is a current example, 3 hp single phase input: https://www.wolfautomation.com/vfd-3hp-230v-single-phase-ip20/ The concern with VFCs is the pulse width modulated output waveform, which I am told will bother some types of loads (some electronics) but not others. Motors will certainly be fine with them, so if you're looking at feeding disk drive motor loads, this is the perfect answer. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 14 12:26:03 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KI10/KL10 I/O bus terminator Message-ID: <20210714172603.2E45118C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hey, anyone need a KI10/KL10 I/O Bus terminator: https://gunkies.org/wiki/File:KIKLIOBusTerm.jpg (H867)? Since I don't have either a KI10 or a KL10, I'm unlikely to ever have a need/use for this one! :-) Noel From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 12:32:48 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 18:32:48 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: VT100 to the rescue, the VLC is fine talking to it so now I'm wondering why my old faithful hardware UART in this PC I'm typing on now has let me down. The BlueSCSI appears as 7 devices though, which is usually a termination or ID problem so I now need to dig out an external terminator for the box since it's never had one. The hard drive in there has been good at providing its own TERMPWR which the BlueSCSI should too but I'll play by the rules to test things properly. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 08:32, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > On 13 Jul 2021, at 23:20, Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 13/07/2021 22:34, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/13/2021 3:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get > nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC > which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up > (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and > end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the > console program'. > > There are 2 ways to have a console on the VAX4000/VLC. A switch on the > back selects either; (1) graphics console mode, or (2) terminal attached to > the serial port. It sounds like you have the switch set to graphics > console mode, in that case you get nothing from the serial port. > > I can't remember where the switch is on the back, bitsavers or someone who > remembers can help. > > Doug > > If you look from the front it's on the right hand side and marked "S3", > between the grey reset switch and the keyboard connector. I think that S3 > needs to be UP otherwise it would expect a monitor and keyboard to be > attached. > > The MMJ connector is on the back (but obviously Adrian has found that ... > or he's pushed really, really hard into either the keyboard connector or > the phone connector :-)) > > > Bear in mind I?m an old DEC head and have been since the early 80s ;) > Though I HAVE seen customers get RJ11 cables jammed in MMJ ports before, > because ?they look alike?. > > Both of you missed my sentence where I said ?It doesn?t matter what > position I have S3 in?, and IIRC even with S3 set to graphics you would > still get a dead sergeant on a VT once init had completed, you just > wouldn?t see POST. > > Anyway, I?ll hook up a VT today at some point and see if anything happens. > > Cheers > > -- > Adrian Graham > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 14 12:55:45 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC use of switching supplies (Was: Looking for VAX6000 items) Message-ID: <20210714175545.70A7E18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > The older Vaxes had linear power supplies if I recall up to the time > of the Decsystem/2020 (when they went switching at last) Really? The H742 power supply: https://gunkies.org/wiki/H742_Power_Supply (well, technically, the associated 'bricks', such as the H744, etc) from about 1972 were switching supplies, so I'm suprised that the much later VAXen (any of them) used linear supplies. Of course, the H744/etc switching supplies didn't use a lot of the techniques used in modern switching supplies to make them small and light (e.g. stepping up the frequency to allow use of a small transformer); the H742 still has a whacking great transformer in it. But they were switching supplies (as we discussed here a while back at some length), not linear. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jul 14 14:09:29 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:09:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <89438ED3-62AE-4BCA-882E-FBE3D8162EAC@comcast.net> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> <89438ED3-62AE-4BCA-882E-FBE3D8162EAC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <90d97c26-a72e-53b5-0b21-9ffb14d262d6@pico-systems.com> On 7/14/21 11:50 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> >> I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters". >> >> * They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load > Really? That seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run capacitors. Just like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A normal motor spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome electrical, magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large. > Induction motors draw relatively constant CURRENT, but the phase angle changes with load. So, the real power draw? increases with increasing load. If you assume power equals current times voltage, then you get a wrong indication, by neglecting oiwer factor. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jul 14 14:12:33 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:12:33 -0500 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <979b8bce-c879-2a46-757c-59ce636550a5@pico-systems.com> On 7/14/21 11:33 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/14/21 6:21 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 11:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> When we got an 8530 at work in the early 90s (needed a >>>> machine with a >>>> Nautilus bus for specific hardware testing), it was >>>> definitely a >>>> 3-phase machine and since we were in an industrial >>>> setting, I just >>>> tapped into our panel at the back of the warehouse and >>>> wired up a >>>> 3-phase outlet for it.? It never sat on our datacenter >>>> floor as a >>>> result, but it really only ever had one purpose and >>>> that wasn't a >>>> daily driver.? Too much power, too much heat for so few >>>> employees (at >>>> that stage of the company). >>> Interesting. Were the power supplies 3 phase input? Like >>> you I have noticed that most pdp and vax gear just pull >>> 120 volt legs off the 3 phase to balance power loads. So >>> you can run them on a couple of 120 circuits. Outside of >>> say the RP07 (which is a real 3 phase motor) >> A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; >> RP04/5/6 are examples as well. >> >> Three phase motors won't run on single phase power >> without help from run capacitors.? (There is no such >> thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is single phase, >> balanced.) >> >> If the issue is motors, a "variable frequency converter" >> will do the job easily.? I have suggested in the past >> that three phase power supplies could run from those, but >> others have pointed out I overlooked some issues.? So >> that's probably not a good idea. >> >> If you need three phase power to feed power supplies or >> other non-motor power consumers, the best answer is >> probably a "rotary converter".? You can find those in >> machine tool supply catalogs.? Basically they are a three >> phase motor equipped with run capacitors so they can be >> fed single phase power; the three phase power needed is >> then taken off the three motor terminals. You can think >> of these as rotary transformers -- dynamotors in a sense, >> for those of you who remember electronics that old.? :-) >> >> Don't look at "static converters" -- those are only for >> motors, it seems they aren't much more than run >> capacitors in a box. They won't help you for anything >> other than a motor, and even for motors they aren't very >> good. >> >> ????paul > > I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters". > > ?* They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the > actual load > ?* They typically don't have great frequency regulation as > they are > ?? really designed for machine tools (which are pretty > tolerant) so if > ?? the load varies, the frequency will vary until the > "mass" catches up > Frequency regulation comes from the single-phase mains, and thus will be the same as the utility provides. > I did a fair amount of investigation of this in order to > power the peripherals for my IBM 4331.? The peripherals in > total require on the order of 21KVA of 3-phase power and > with them (printer, card reader/punch and tape drives) the > load will vary *a lot) which would screw up the DASD > (string of 3340 drives and some 3350 clones). > > I ended up looking at a solid state phase converter (takes > in 220v single phase and produces 208v 3-phase).? It has a > good (< 1% frequency regulation) and only consumed 100W at > idle.? Plus it's relatively small and quiet.? The downside > is cost (~$5000). > From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jul 14 14:53:27 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:53:27 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <89438ED3-62AE-4BCA-882E-FBE3D8162EAC@comcast.net> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> <89438ED3-62AE-4BCA-882E-FBE3D8162EAC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0b1deada-bbcb-671a-9c2f-eba1ead56b77@shiresoft.com> On 7/14/21 9:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> >> I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters". >> >> * They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load > Really? That seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run capacitors. Just like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A normal motor spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome electrical, magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large. > > Can you cite a source for this? Spec sheets for various rotary converters that I looked at.? I'd have to go back and find them again but they typically drew full load power all the time...and they were *loud*. > >> * They typically don't have great frequency regulation as they are >> really designed for machine tools (which are pretty tolerant) so if >> the load varies, the frequency will vary until the "mass" catches up > They have no frequency regulation at all; what comes out of the third wire is a phase shifted version of the line input. > > You may be thinking about motor-generators, where the output frequency is defined by the construction of the generator section and how fast it spins. Yes, under high load those will slow down some, reducing the output frequency. > >> I did a fair amount of investigation of this in order to power the peripherals for my IBM 4331. The peripherals in total require on the order of 21KVA of 3-phase power and with them (printer, card reader/punch and tape drives) the load will vary *a lot) which would screw up the DASD (string of 3340 drives and some 3350 clones). > Yes, I would expect that. Power supplies would not care much. Another example is the CDC 6000 series, which uses 400 Hz M/G sets feeding power supplies. The disk drives run off mains power, so any M/G speed variations is not a factor. > >> I ended up looking at a solid state phase converter (takes in 220v single phase and produces 208v 3-phase). It has a good (< 1% frequency regulation) and only consumed 100W at idle. Plus it's relatively small and quiet. The downside is cost (~$5000). > $5000 ??? I have a VFC on my lathe (3 hp rating, so about 2 kW electric). It cost only $150 or so as I recall -- TECO Westinghouse brand. I think they are still around. That particular model was rated for single phase input. Larger ones are not, though I'm told that they still work if connected that way (220 to two of the input terminals and the third left open) at reduced rating. > > Here is a current example, 3 hp single phase input: https://www.wolfautomation.com/vfd-3hp-230v-single-phase-ip20/ > > The concern with VFCs is the pulse width modulated output waveform, which I am told will bother some types of loads (some electronics) but not others. Motors will certainly be fine with them, so if you're looking at feeding disk drive motor loads, this is the perfect answer. The one I looked at produced full sine wave output for all 3 phases.? I don't recall the THD but it was sub 1%. 21KVA I think works out to 15 or 20HP.? The input for what I was looking at was 75A @ 220v single phase.? So it's quite a bit more than 2KW and the MOSFETs they use are *huge*. Yes, the "small" VCFs are relatively inexpensive if they are just PWM outputs. I'm was concerned because there are ferro-resonant? transformers in some of this gear and the IBM specs for these devices was pretty tight on frequency and THD.? Given the nature of this gear, I'd rather not have to go and start replacing unobtainium parts due to poor quality power. -- TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 15:05:51 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:05:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items In-Reply-To: <0b1deada-bbcb-671a-9c2f-eba1ead56b77@shiresoft.com> References: <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1566836431.5487312.1626197626670@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9D71F2-C763-4ACC-9A8B-F3C3C5FF644F@avanthar.com> <447922785.1949.1626229278679@mail.yahoo.com> <3e1b2a1d-84ff-da4f-e441-ec712b0609a5@shiresoft.com> <89438ED3-62AE-4BCA-882E-FBE3D8162EAC@comcast.net> <0b1deada-bbcb-671a-9c2f-eba1ead56b77@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 14, 2021, at 3:53 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 7/14/21 9:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Jul 14, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I've found 2 issues w.r.t. "rotary converters". >>> >>> * They *always* consume lots of power regardless of the actual load >> Really? That seems odd. A rotary converter is merely a three phase motor with run capacitors. Just like any other motor, its power demand depends on the applied load. A normal motor spinning without anything connected to it consumes power to overcome electrical, magnetical, and friction losses, but none of these are particularly large. >> >> Can you cite a source for this? > Spec sheets for various rotary converters that I looked at. I'd have to go back and find them again but they typically drew full load power all the time...and they were *loud*. Odd. I know "Phase-a-matic" which is sold by various machinery companies like MSC Direct. Checking their brochure (at https://phaseconverters.phase-a-matic.com/item/rotary-converters/rotary-converter/rotary-converters#) shows -- for example -- the 3 hp converter idles at 3 amp. That's 600 watts at the very most, probably less than that due to power factor but I don't see that discussed. paul From doc at vaxen.net Wed Jul 14 21:42:06 2021 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 21:42:06 -0500 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/13/21 14:30, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get > nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC > which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up > (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and > end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the > console program'. > > Clearly the DALLAS has passed the TOY tests, but if it's not happy would > that stop the console displaying? It doesn't matter how I set S3, next step > I guess is to hook it up to a 'proper' VT. Adrian, I'm having exactly that problem with my VLC. I put a Real VT420 on it and still get no output. With a known-good/compatible monitor and keyboard on it, same thing. If there's a solution to this, I'd love to know. Doc From athornton at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 23:21:10 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 21:21:10 -0700 Subject: Koning TECO Message-ID: Paul Koning may be pleased to know that his implementation of TECO has supplanted Blake McBride's TECOC as the standard TECO in the Rubin Observatory's Science Platform Interactive Notebook Aspect. https://github.com/lsst-sqre/nublado/blob/f6b186081c0a3c9e12a1935db304ee2b31840e2c/jupyterlab/stage2-os.sh#L17-L25 Of course if there is sufficient outcry from the user community I could be convinced to include both in the image, at least until my boss catches me doing it. Adam From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 15 02:03:35 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:03:35 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0a6fedd9-632d-01d6-db16-d9d179315647@ntlworld.com> On 14/07/2021 18:32, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > VT100 to the rescue, the VLC is fine talking to it so now I'm wondering why > my old faithful hardware UART in this PC I'm typing on now has let me down. Given the possible issues (dead VLC line drivers, iffy cable, iffy PC UART) you've probably bee lucky (although maybe DECconnect cables aren't too tricky to make up these days). Funnily enough I have a very similar issue on my MicroVAX 3600: the CPU bulkhead LED cycles through the right stuff but nothing appears on the VT420. Take the lead out of the uV3600 and plug it in to the VS400-60 and it's fine. The leaky battery on the console bulkhead probably didn't help :-( At least you don't have *that* issue on the VLC! It would be nice to know if Bluepill works on the VS4000 range: I wonder if my VS4000-90 would then become silent enough to run more often! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 02:50:29 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:50:29 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9005F4B1-B603-42B2-B541-9BCFBEBC7605@gmail.com> > On 15 Jul 2021, at 03:42, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/13/21 14:30, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> Hi folks, >> Powering up with nothing attached apart from an MMJ/H8571 cable I get >> nothing on the console, I'm using PuTTY via a genuine COM1 port on a PC >> which is one level above what I used last time I powered the machine up >> (FTDI USB adapter to a laptop). Diagnostic LEDs cycle through the tests and >> end up at '1111 0011' which according to the manual is 'entering the >> console program'. >> Clearly the DALLAS has passed the TOY tests, but if it's not happy would >> that stop the console displaying? It doesn't matter how I set S3, next step >> I guess is to hook it up to a 'proper' VT. > > > Adrian, I'm having exactly that problem with my VLC. I put a Real VT420 on it and still get no output. With a known-good/compatible monitor and keyboard on it, same thing. > > If there's a solution to this, I'd love to know. All I did with the VT was connect up with the usual H8575-A MMJ-DB25 adapter, set S3 to up and switch on. Presumably your LEDs are going through the right sequence and end up at 1111 0011? -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 02:52:51 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:52:51 +0100 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: <0a6fedd9-632d-01d6-db16-d9d179315647@ntlworld.com> References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> <0a6fedd9-632d-01d6-db16-d9d179315647@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <35F57402-4587-46C9-B851-8DE4E9E8E5BA@gmail.com> > On 15 Jul 2021, at 08:03, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > It would be nice to know if Bluepill works on the VS4000 range: I wonder if my VS4000-90 would then become silent enough to run more often! So far it?s detected as a Quantum Fireball but also is detected 8 times. I notice the chipset in the VLC is NCR and there are known issues with the NCR chipset in a Mac SE so I?ve poked a message out on the blueSCSI discord server to see if anyone has any ideas. One of the contributors worked on the SCSI2SD for VAX so he may be of help. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 15 08:27:20 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 06:27:20 -0700 Subject: VAX4000 VLC diagnostics/console In-Reply-To: <0a6fedd9-632d-01d6-db16-d9d179315647@ntlworld.com> References: <8BBB152E-B5B6-470F-AC83-6AC620961D63@gmail.com> <0a6fedd9-632d-01d6-db16-d9d179315647@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9EE03136-32E5-4D84-9F9F-DB5A49C938D5@avanthar.com> Sent from my iPod > On Jul 15, 2021, at 12:03 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > It would be nice to know if Bluepill works on the VS4000 range: I wonder if my VS4000-90 would then become silent enough to run more often! My VAXstation 4000-90 is very quiet with a SCSI2SD board. I don?t really notice it running in my office. Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 09:38:20 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:38:20 -0400 Subject: Koning TECO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Neat. FYI, I just pushed a bugfix and an improvement to color handling. paul > On Jul 15, 2021, at 12:21 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > Paul Koning may be pleased to know that his implementation of TECO has > supplanted Blake McBride's TECOC as the standard TECO in the Rubin > Observatory's Science Platform Interactive Notebook Aspect. > > https://github.com/lsst-sqre/nublado/blob/f6b186081c0a3c9e12a1935db304ee2b31840e2c/jupyterlab/stage2-os.sh#L17-L25 > > Of course if there is sufficient outcry from the user community I could be > convinced to include both in the image, at least until my boss catches me > doing it. > > Adam From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jul 15 09:42:11 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:42:11 -0600 Subject: Koning TECO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm, this must be a different TECO than I'm used to if 'Color' is involved... :) Cool implementation of it, though. Warner On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 8:38 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Neat. FYI, I just pushed a bugfix and an improvement to color handling. > > paul > > > On Jul 15, 2021, at 12:21 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Paul Koning may be pleased to know that his implementation of TECO has > > supplanted Blake McBride's TECOC as the standard TECO in the Rubin > > Observatory's Science Platform Interactive Notebook Aspect. > > > > > https://github.com/lsst-sqre/nublado/blob/f6b186081c0a3c9e12a1935db304ee2b31840e2c/jupyterlab/stage2-os.sh#L17-L25 > > > > Of course if there is sufficient outcry from the user community I could > be > > convinced to include both in the image, at least until my boss catches me > > doing it. > > > > Adam > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 09:46:15 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:46:15 -0400 Subject: Koning TECO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64ECD4C4-B47B-4CC2-A688-AC6D688D3FA2@comcast.net> I used color, in a limited way, in the 1980s on my Gigi. But in this case, what I'm talking about is selectable foreground and background for the GT40 style window, for the W command. paul > On Jul 15, 2021, at 10:42 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > Hmmm, this must be a different TECO than I'm used to if 'Color' is involved... :) > > Cool implementation of it, though. > > Warner > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 8:38 AM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > Neat. FYI, I just pushed a bugfix and an improvement to color handling. > > paul > > > On Jul 15, 2021, at 12:21 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Paul Koning may be pleased to know that his implementation of TECO has > > supplanted Blake McBride's TECOC as the standard TECO in the Rubin > > Observatory's Science Platform Interactive Notebook Aspect. > > > > https://github.com/lsst-sqre/nublado/blob/f6b186081c0a3c9e12a1935db304ee2b31840e2c/jupyterlab/stage2-os.sh#L17-L25 > > > > Of course if there is sufficient outcry from the user community I could be > > convinced to include both in the image, at least until my boss catches me > > doing it. > > > > Adam > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 15:19:10 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:19:10 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items (Paul Koning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: Paul Koning > To: Chris Zach , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Subject: Re: Looking for VAX6000 items > > A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are > examples as well. > > Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run > capacitors. (There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is > single phase, balanced.) > > paul > The RP06 uses 220VAC single phase motors for the spindle and blower. I converted an RP06 from three-phase to single-phase to use with PDP-10 KS10 at home. Instructions are here: https://sites.google.com/site/mthompsonorg/Home/pdp-10/rm03-and-rp06-information/rp06 -- Michael Thompson From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 15:22:41 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:22:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items (Paul Koning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 15, 2021, at 4:19 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > >> >> From: Paul Koning >> To: Chris Zach , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" >> >> Subject: Re: Looking for VAX6000 items >> >> A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are >> examples as well. >> >> Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run >> capacitors. (There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts is >> single phase, balanced.) >> >> paul >> > > The RP06 uses 220VAC single phase motors for the spindle and blower. Interesting. I distinctly remember a disk drive installation manual that warned about phase order. Perhaps that was for the RP04 and not the RP05/6 ? paul From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 15:33:23 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:33:23 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items (Paul Koning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The power cord is three-phase, and actually daisy-chains to a second and third drive. The phases on the AC output connector are rotated to balance the load on all three phases when three drives are daisy-chained. If you look at the power wiring diagram on page 3-120 of the Memorex 677-01 manual you will see only two of the phases going to the power transformer. On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 4:22 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jul 15, 2021, at 4:19 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> From: Paul Koning > >> To: Chris Zach , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > >> > >> Subject: Re: Looking for VAX6000 items > >> > >> A number of the large disk drives use 3 phase motors; RP04/5/6 are > >> examples as well. > >> > >> Three phase motors won't run on single phase power without help from run > >> capacitors. (There is no such thing as "two phase power" -- 220 volts > is > >> single phase, balanced.) > >> > >> paul > >> > > > > The RP06 uses 220VAC single phase motors for the spindle and blower. > > Interesting. I distinctly remember a disk drive installation manual that > warned about phase order. Perhaps that was for the RP04 and not the RP05/6 > ? > > paul > > -- Michael Thompson From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 16:13:52 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 17:13:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items (Paul Koning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472361C3-925F-403D-B2A8-93B01AD35864@comcast.net> > On Jul 15, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > The power cord is three-phase, and actually daisy-chains to a second and third drive. The phases on the AC output connector are rotated to balance the load on all three phases when three drives are daisy-chained. If you look at the power wiring diagram on page 3-120 of the Memorex 677-01 manual you will see only two of the phases going to the power transformer. Ok. I just looked up the RP04 maintenance manual. It isn't all that explicit but it does say that the spindle motor is a 3-phase induction motor. paul From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 16:50:42 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 17:50:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX6000 items (Paul Koning) In-Reply-To: <472361C3-925F-403D-B2A8-93B01AD35864@comcast.net> References: <472361C3-925F-403D-B2A8-93B01AD35864@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6426E43A-B851-4B94-B355-BAAFC7D66F8C@gmail.com> I believe that the CDC built RP04 has a three-phase spindle motor. > On Jul 15, 2021, at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Jul 15, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >> The power cord is three-phase, and actually daisy-chains to a second and third drive. The phases on the AC output connector are rotated to balance the load on all three phases when three drives are daisy-chained. If you look at the power wiring diagram on page 3-120 of the Memorex 677-01 manual you will see only two of the phases going to the power transformer. > > Ok. I just looked up the RP04 maintenance manual. It isn't all that explicit but it does say that the spindle motor is a 3-phase induction motor. > > paul > From lars at nocrew.org Fri Jul 16 02:52:03 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 07:52:03 +0000 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: (Chris Zach via cctalk's message of "Sun, 23 May 2021 21:34:03 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7wk0lqpufw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Chris Zach wrote: > Anyone know if the LCM will be open this summer? I'm going to be in > Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't mind stopping by and seeing how > it was doing.... Still closed for on site visitors: https://livingcomputers.org/Closure.aspx But they haven't shut down all operations. All along they have been offering remote access to vintage systems, some of which are real hardware and some migrated to emulators: ssh menu at tty.livingcomputers.org https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 08:03:50 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:03:50 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <7wk0lqpufw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wk0lqpufw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <81E84663-CAB0-49CC-BB3E-99345E9D423E@comcast.net> > On Jul 16, 2021, at 3:52 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > ... > https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/ That produces a page load error. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 16 08:30:08 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:30:08 -0400 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <81E84663-CAB0-49CC-BB3E-99345E9D423E@comcast.net> References: <7wk0lqpufw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <81E84663-CAB0-49CC-BB3E-99345E9D423E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6b1b5ede-82fe-02ab-cdb2-3d87ab9e6e2e@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-07-16 9:03 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jul 16, 2021, at 3:52 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/ > > That produces a page load error. > > paul > Loaded correctly for me. --Toby From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 16 08:32:35 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 06:32:35 -0700 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <6b1b5ede-82fe-02ab-cdb2-3d87ab9e6e2e@telegraphics.com.au> References: <7wk0lqpufw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <81E84663-CAB0-49CC-BB3E-99345E9D423E@comcast.net> <6b1b5ede-82fe-02ab-cdb2-3d87ab9e6e2e@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:30 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > >> On 2021-07-16 9:03 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On Jul 16, 2021, at 3:52 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/ >> >> That produces a page load error. >> >> paul >> > > Loaded correctly for me. > > --Toby Interesting, a minute ago, it didn?t, now it loads. Maybe it was just rebooted? Zane From johnr at grebnesor.com Fri Jul 16 17:50:22 2021 From: johnr at grebnesor.com (johnr@grebnesor) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 08:50:22 +1000 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration Message-ID: <7A13AE08-2290-4FE9-89D9-3CC1ECDA577F@grebnesor.com> Hello, I came across a web article in which you discussed restoring an HP2100A. I spent many years working on this computer and have the front panel. I am doing some work on it to produce a display for fun. I am replacing the incandescent globes with LEDs and using a Raspberry Pi to control them. The question I have is, do you know an easy way to remove and insert globes in the front panel switches please? I am based in Melbourne, Australia. Many thanks John _____________________________________________________ Professor John Rosenberg E: johnr at grebnesor.com M: +61 418 253001 From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 12:40:25 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 17:40:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VaxBrick (vax 4000-50, KA600 ) Owners manual/technical manual References: <1447233854.112344.1626543625520.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1447233854.112344.1626543625520@mail.yahoo.com> Doe anyone have an "owners manual" or technical manual for the KA600 aka VaxBrick aka Vax 4000-50? I have most of a Vaxbrick, but I'd sooner run Unix on it that VMS. But I know of no open-source OS which supports the KA600. I'd guess most of the internal devices are similar to SCSI or DSSI on high-end Microvaxes/vaxstations; but that's a guess. There's a listing on eBay for a lot which includes vaxbricks. I've made an offer on it, but let the offer expire after finding no open-source drivers. I'm willing to front purchase of the lot, if others are interested in buying a VaxBrick in a BA213 or BA 215. -Jonathan Stone From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 18:27:23 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:27:23 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <7A13AE08-2290-4FE9-89D9-3CC1ECDA577F@grebnesor.com> References: <7A13AE08-2290-4FE9-89D9-3CC1ECDA577F@grebnesor.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 2:28 PM johnr at grebnesor via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > I came across a web article in which you discussed restoring an HP2100A. I spent many years working on this computer and have the front panel. I am doing some work on it to produce a display for fun. I am replacing the incandescent globes with LEDs and using a Raspberry Pi to control them. > > The question I have is, do you know an easy way to remove and insert globes in the front panel switches please? The HP 2100A front panel uses T-1.75 Bi-Pin base miniature lamps. The last time I replaced some, if I remember correctly, I used Chicago Miniature CM7361 lamps for replacement. I forget if I was able to get a grip on them at all with needle-nose pliers to pull them out, or if I used something else. If you look for purpose built tools it appears that there are a couple of common styles. One style uses some sort of flexible plastic or rubber tube that is just the right diameter and wall thickness that it can be pushed on to the lamp, and then maintain enough friction on the lamp to pull it out when the tube is pulled out. Another style uses a metal tube that is split along its length that can be pushed on to the lamp when the halves of the tube are separated, then the halves of the tube can be pressed together to grip the lamp so it can be pulled out when the tube is pulled out. An example of the second style that shows up in a lot of lamp extractor searches is the Jonard S-339: https://jonard.com/s-339-lamp-extractor At somewhere around $30 for those tools I haven't been curious enough about buying one to see if it is suitable for removing and inserting HP 2100A front panel lamps. From dave at 661.org Sat Jul 17 21:52:52 2021 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 02:52:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: RP/M2 by Micro Methods Inc Message-ID: <3d40e75d-c068-b1b6-511e-b51f8e8b27e@661.org> I found a copy of RP/M2 for the IBM PC by Micro Methods Inc. with manual and some floppies, 8" and 5.25". According to the manual, this was a CP/M compatible operating system. Doing a web search doesn't tell me anything more than a couple offhand comments. Does anyone here know anything interesting about this? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Jul 18 00:52:10 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 22:52:10 -0700 Subject: RP/M2 by Micro Methods Inc Message-ID: <1MdMsu-1lVeu51xVQ-00ZNY1@mrelay.perfora.net> >I found a copy of RP/M2 for the IBM PC by Micro >Methods Inc. with manual >and some floppies, 8" and 5.25".? According to the >manual, this was a >CP/M compatible operating system.??David,Did you see the article on page 94:http://www.bitsavers.org/magazines/Micro_Cornucopia/Micro_Cornucopia_%2329_Apr86.pdf-Ali? From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 05:54:42 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 12:54:42 +0200 Subject: RP/M2 by Micro Methods Inc In-Reply-To: <1MdMsu-1lVeu51xVQ-00ZNY1@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <1MdMsu-1lVeu51xVQ-00ZNY1@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 07:52, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> I found a copy of RP/M2 for the IBM PC by Micro Methods Inc. with manual >> and some floppies, 8" and 5.25". According to the manual, this was a >> CP/M compatible operating system. > David, Did you see the article on page 94: http://www.bitsavers.org/magazines/Micro_Cornucopia/Micro_Cornucopia_%2329_Apr86.pdf > - Ali (Just trying to fix the quoting so the URL works, in case it helps anyone. I am enjoying reading the mag myself. :-) ) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 18 09:52:14 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:52:14 -0700 Subject: VaxBrick (vax 4000-50, KA600 ) Owners manual/technical manual In-Reply-To: <1447233854.112344.1626543625520@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1447233854.112344.1626543625520.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1447233854.112344.1626543625520@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 17, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > Doe anyone have an "owners manual" or technical manual for the KA600 aka VaxBrick aka Vax 4000-50? > > I have most of a Vaxbrick, but I'd sooner run Unix on it that VMS. But I know of no open-source OS which supports the KA600. > I'd guess most of the internal devices are similar to SCSI or DSSI on high-end Microvaxes/vaxstations; but that's a guess. > > There's a listing on eBay for a lot which includes vaxbricks. I've made an offer on it, but let the offer expire after finding no open-source drivers. I'm willing to front purchase of the lot, if others are interested in buying a VaxBrick in a BA213 or BA 215. > > -Jonathan Stone It?s interesting looking hardware. Looking at that auction, it appears that they only have two VAX 4000-50?s and that the other two are expansion chassis, along with a lot of BA350/BA356 shelves and drive SBB?s. Any idea what the performance spec?s on a VAXbrick are? Since it?s a drop-in replacement for a VAX 4000-200, it presumably supports DSSI. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 18 09:52:14 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:52:14 -0700 Subject: VaxBrick (vax 4000-50, KA600 ) Owners manual/technical manual In-Reply-To: <1447233854.112344.1626543625520@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1447233854.112344.1626543625520.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1447233854.112344.1626543625520@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 17, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: > > Doe anyone have an "owners manual" or technical manual for the KA600 aka VaxBrick aka Vax 4000-50? > > I have most of a Vaxbrick, but I'd sooner run Unix on it that VMS. But I know of no open-source OS which supports the KA600. > I'd guess most of the internal devices are similar to SCSI or DSSI on high-end Microvaxes/vaxstations; but that's a guess. > > There's a listing on eBay for a lot which includes vaxbricks. I've made an offer on it, but let the offer expire after finding no open-source drivers. I'm willing to front purchase of the lot, if others are interested in buying a VaxBrick in a BA213 or BA 215. > > -Jonathan Stone It?s interesting looking hardware. Looking at that auction, it appears that they only have two VAX 4000-50?s and that the other two are expansion chassis, along with a lot of BA350/BA356 shelves and drive SBB?s. Any idea what the performance spec?s on a VAXbrick are? Since it?s a drop-in replacement for a VAX 4000-200, it presumably supports DSSI. Zane From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Jul 18 12:14:48 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:14:48 -0400 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210718171448.GA1068761@hugin3> On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 04:27:23PM -0700, Glen Slick wrote: > > The question I have is, do you know an easy way to remove and insert globes in the front panel switches please? > > At somewhere around $30 for those tools I haven't been curious enough > about buying one to see if it is suitable for removing and inserting > HP 2100A front panel lamps. > I've use shrink tubing of the right diameter. Push it over the bulb and it normally grips well enough to pull the bulb out. For inserting it works but you need a small screwdriver to hold it in while you pull off the tubing assuimg the HP has enough room for that. From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 00:33:59 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:33:59 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair Message-ID: I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire in a PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible without a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and wonder if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards were simply discarded. CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to replace a broken core wire on those. Best regards Tom Hunter From steven at malikoff.com Mon Jul 19 02:59:59 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 17:59:59 +1000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84f709701f774aebb1a07a8bbb6eb091.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Tom said > I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire in a > PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible without > a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and wonder > if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards were > simply discarded. > > CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to replace > a broken core wire on those. I have no idea how DEC made theirs but for IBM's System 360, one of their engineers came up with the clever idea of stretching the core wire so it necked and broke, leaving a work-hardened tapered point to thread the cores with. They patented it https://patents.google.com/patent/US3314131A (Source: page 187 of 'IBM's 360 and early 370 Systems' by Pugh et al) On a Youtube film about the 360 they show cores being vibrated into the correct orientation on a jig board. From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Jul 19 03:40:44 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 09:40:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55e9b1e8.2735f.17abdecb557.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Tom Hunter via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, 19 Jul, 2021 At 06:33 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire in a PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible without a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and wonder if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards were simply discarded. CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to replace a broken core wire on those. Best regards Tom Hunter I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the late 60's and early 70's. I believe it was done by machine, with a tray to hold the toroids in place, and a very fine needle-like "bobbin" that threaded the wires through the toroids. I believe threading the cores by hand had become largely obsolete by the time the PDP-8 came onto the market. Though i can't confirm it, i highly doubt that DEC engineers would repair core planes. These would more likely be sent back to the manufacturer for "recycling", with the cores being recovered and reused. It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the core planes. In this way, it was rather difficult for a clumsy ol' technician to put his thumb through the planes as he was servicing machines. Josh From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Jul 19 03:52:13 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 09:52:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair In-Reply-To: <2aa30c2.273ec.17abdf6a1d5.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> References: <2aa30c2.273ec.17abdf6a1d5.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5d5f0788.273f3.17abdf7399b.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Tom Hunter via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, 19 Jul, 2021 At 06:33 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire in a PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible without a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and wonder if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards were simply discarded. CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to replace a broken core wire on those. Best regards Tom Hunter These patents might be enlightening. I'm sure there's others, but these are some i've found on a quick search. https://patents.google.com/patent/US4161037A https://patents.google.com/patent/US3668664 Josh From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 06:02:25 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 19:02:25 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair In-Reply-To: <5d5f0788.273f3.17abdf7399b.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> References: <2aa30c2.273ec.17abdf6a1d5.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <5d5f0788.273f3.17abdf7399b.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Thanks Josh, I read through both patents but struggled to fully understand what they described. Unfortunately patents are written in broad terms to cover as much as possible. It was very interesting nevertheless. Best regards Tom Hunter On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 4:52 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Tom Hunter via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, 19 Jul, 2021 At 06:33 > Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire > in a > PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible > without > a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and > wonder > if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards were > simply discarded. > CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to > replace > a broken core wire on those. > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > > These patents might be enlightening. I'm sure there's others, but these > are some i've found on a quick search. > https://patents.google.com/patent/US4161037A > > https://patents.google.com/patent/US3668664 > > Josh > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 16:50:10 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:10 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair In-Reply-To: <55e9b1e8.2735f.17abdecb557.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> References: <55e9b1e8.2735f.17abdecb557.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <769e6168-9024-fa20-5b9c-ed1cb91ec641@gmail.com> On 7/19/21 3:40 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was > outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the late 60's > and early 70's. I've got a trio of planes here, two of which are from a Lockheed MAC-16, but the other one is made by Keronix out of Santa Monica for an unknown machine (dated 1973, model number "P4" and p/n 816335 if that means anything to anyone, approx 16"x16" with two 100-pin, double-sided finger edge connectors on 0.1" spacing). Anyhoo, the Keronix one has a sticker on it saying it was repaired by DMA, inc. in Amery, WI in 1980 - which might suggest that there were third parties around working on boards, rather than them having to go back to the manufacturer for repair. (I have no idea what the nature of the repair was, of course; maybe it was to surrounding logic rather than the mat itself). > It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the > fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being > protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the core > planes. Yes, that's how all the ones I've ever seen have been. The Keronix one has an additional shield over the top of the entire PCB, on top of the one protecting the cores. Jules From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Jul 19 17:06:26 2021 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 23:06:26 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair In-Reply-To: <769e6168-9024-fa20-5b9c-ed1cb91ec641@gmail.com> References: <55e9b1e8.2735f.17abdecb557.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <769e6168-9024-fa20-5b9c-ed1cb91ec641@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes most core stringing was outsourced. By hand under magnification was used. I cant recall any references to automation. That would br down to the supplier. The story I heard was at least some were done by embroidery girls in Hong Kong Rod Smallwood ? -- Digital Equipment Corporation? 1975 to 1985 On 19/07/2021 22:50, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/19/21 3:40 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >> I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was >> outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the >> late 60's and early 70's. > > I've got a trio of planes here, two of which are from a Lockheed > MAC-16, but the other one is made by Keronix out of Santa Monica for > an unknown machine (dated 1973, model number "P4" and p/n 816335 if > that means anything to anyone, approx 16"x16" with two 100-pin, > double-sided finger edge connectors on 0.1" spacing). > > Anyhoo, the Keronix one has a sticker on it saying it was repaired by > DMA, inc. in Amery, WI in 1980 - which might suggest that there were > third parties around working on boards, rather than them having to go > back to the manufacturer for repair. (I have no idea what the nature > of the repair was, of course; maybe it was to surrounding logic rather > than the mat itself). > >> It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the >> fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being >> protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the >> core planes. > > Yes, that's how all the ones I've ever seen have been. The Keronix one > has an additional shield over the top of the entire PCB, on top of the > one protecting the cores. > > Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jul 19 17:16:28 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 18:16:28 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair In-Reply-To: References: <55e9b1e8.2735f.17abdecb557.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> <769e6168-9024-fa20-5b9c-ed1cb91ec641@gmail.com> Message-ID: <820d43ed-e32d-4394-4038-bb662f5e6798@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-07-19 6:06 p.m., Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > Yes most core stringing was outsourced. > There's more detail on early core production in the book "IBM's Early Computers", iirc. (And possibly "A Few Good Men From Univac".) > ... > Rod Smallwood ? -- Digital Equipment Corporation? 1975 to 1985 > > > On 19/07/2021 22:50, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/19/21 3:40 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>> I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was >>> outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the >>> late 60's and early 70's. >> >> I've got a trio of planes here, two of which are from a Lockheed >> MAC-16, but the other one is made by Keronix out of Santa Monica for >> an unknown machine (dated 1973, model number "P4" and p/n 816335 if >> that means anything to anyone, approx 16"x16" with two 100-pin, >> double-sided finger edge connectors on 0.1" spacing). >> >> Anyhoo, the Keronix one has a sticker on it saying it was repaired by >> DMA, inc. in Amery, WI in 1980 - which might suggest that there were >> third parties around working on boards, rather than them having to go >> back to the manufacturer for repair. (I have no idea what the nature >> of the repair was, of course; maybe it was to surrounding logic rather >> than the mat itself). >> >>> It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the >>> fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being >>> protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the >>> core planes. >> >> Yes, that's how all the ones I've ever seen have been. The Keronix one >> has an additional shield over the top of the entire PCB, on top of the >> one protecting the cores. >> >> Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:03:46 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 18:03:46 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software Message-ID: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? What I believe is one popped up on one of my Facebook groups, and it'd be a trek to get it even if I can arrange a good price with the current owner - but it sounds like the software at the site, if it still exists, is unlikely to surface from a huge pile of detritus, so that automatically puts things right in boat anchor territory. There may or may not be a terminal, too; I get the impression those were optional (I've been told that there are two Tek terminals, I just don't know if they're the right models for this system). cheers Jules From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jul 19 18:11:32 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:11:32 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might check with the Tektronix museum, and see what they know. As far as I know, they aren?t actually part of Tektronix. Zane > On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? > > What I believe is one popped up on one of my Facebook groups, and it'd be a trek to get it even if I can arrange a good price with the current owner - but it sounds like the software at the site, if it still exists, is unlikely to surface from a huge pile of detritus, so that automatically puts things right in boat anchor territory. > > There may or may not be a terminal, too; I get the impression those were optional (I've been told that there are two Tek terminals, I just don't know if they're the right models for this system). > > > cheers > > Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 19 18:15:11 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:15:11 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <395e3439-3632-33ea-9579-883ad602b8e5@bitsavers.org> On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? I have some but it is hard-sectored so I've never tried to read it. It's pretty unlikely anyone at the tek museum would have tried to recover the floppies even if they had them. One of my 'really like to try to recover' things at CHM is we have a bunch of floppies from the company that designed it for Tek, but someone put a center punch through every disk, so I'm going to have to take them out of the jacket and try to flatten the dent out as best as I can. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 19 18:20:19 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:20:19 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? > It would be nice to save a complete system though, since most have been tossed out since there is little practical use for them now. I never had a whole one, just board sets for various processors that I collected over the years. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 19 18:25:21 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:25:21 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/19/21 4:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > It would be nice to save a complete system though, since most have been tossed out since there is little > practical use for them now. I've collected a LOT of in-circuit emulators and microprocessor development systems over the decades, and I'm trying to decide right now what I'm going to do with them. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 19:53:25 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 19:53:25 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d864579-a8be-c8b1-9734-d208d0c10bcf@gmail.com> On 7/19/21 6:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 >> microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? >> > > It would be nice to save a complete system though, since most have been > tossed out since there is little > practical use for them now. Well sadly it's looking like game over. By the sounds of it there's a basement full of old equipment and boards, and a scrapper out in OH has offered $6k for the lot, sight unseen, just on the hope that they can make a buck on the gold and palladium content. The next offer seems to be from someone who's planning on just dumping it on ebay - so if the scrapper deal falls through maybe it'll resurface on That Auction Site for lolprice... This is starting to feel like one of those situations where it's a huge shame that the original owner of this stuff didn't have a will expressing what should be done with it all. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 20:17:27 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:17:27 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: <8d864579-a8be-c8b1-9734-d208d0c10bcf@gmail.com> References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> <8d864579-a8be-c8b1-9734-d208d0c10bcf@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/19/21 7:53 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Well sadly it's looking like game over. By the sounds of it there's a > basement full of old equipment and boards, and a scrapper out in OH has > offered $6k for the lot, sight unseen, just on the hope that they can make > a buck on the gold and palladium content. annnnd... right after I hit send on that, things start looking up again. The guy responsible for this stuff doesn't seem to want it to get scrapped any more than I do, and he got in touch with folks down at Cape Canaveral (there are various ex-NASA things in the pile), then talked to the family of the estate; it sounds like some of it at least might get donated to the collection down there. I'm not sure about non-NASA things at this point, we'll see - but it sounds like there's interest now in not junking it, at least! Jules From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jul 19 21:56:29 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 19:56:29 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> <8d864579-a8be-c8b1-9734-d208d0c10bcf@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 19, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/19/21 7:53 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> Well sadly it's looking like game over. By the sounds of it there's a basement full of old equipment and boards, and a scrapper out in OH has offered $6k for the lot, sight unseen, just on the hope that they can make a buck on the gold and palladium content. > > annnnd... right after I hit send on that, things start looking up again. The guy responsible for this stuff doesn't seem to want it to get scrapped any more than I do, and he got in touch with folks down at Cape Canaveral (there are various ex-NASA things in the pile), then talked to the family of the estate; it sounds like some of it at least might get donated to the collection down there. > > I'm not sure about non-NASA things at this point, we'll see - but it sounds like there's interest now in not junking it, at least! > > Jules That?s a bit of good news! Zane From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jul 19 22:03:49 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 22:03:49 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> On 7/11/2021 9:33 AM, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals and > assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment :). > > 1) Qbus scsi card You and me both. ;) I have one - and I intend to keep it. > 2) Emulex TC01 > 3) QBUS bus probe > 4) SD2SCSI Do you mean a device that emulates a SCSI drive with an SD card? Why not just go out and purchase a SCSI2SD V5.1 - a little slower than the newer ones, but works fine in my Sun, SGI and Intergraph Boxen. I also just bought one of the less expensive Androda SCSI emulators - designed for Macs, really, but it might work and it is relatively inexpensive. > 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches > 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal FYI, if you have "Pizza Boxes" then I have found that the cable commonly available (VGA one end, 13W3 on the other - the one with switches on it) works well on both Sun and SGI Boxen. Google Sun VGA 13W3 on eBay. You probably want the one with the switches.) > 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) I have some old Pertec formatters that have no bus interface. Free to good homes. Some were mouse houses for a while, but were subsequently cleaned up reasonably well. Models F649-72 (2 of those) and F649-40. Heavy to ship. In addition, I think I have a TC031, Pertec/QBus (I think) that I really am not using. I tried it out once - I think the issue was that I had a Pertec interface speed mismatch between it and the HP drive I have with a Pertec interface (which also has issues with loading tape.) I suspect it is formatted, however. > 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar > 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL I have a Fabritek memory box. I think it was on a PDP-12, but am not 100% certain without going back and looking at old paperwork. I am not sure of its condition, electrically speaking - whether it had slots for cables, or cables coming out of it, and if the latter, whether they are intact. It has been stored in my basement for decades, low and dray. That would take some work to pry out of my hands. > 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front > panels, etc... > 11) ESDI disk emulator I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild. MFM, yes, but I haven't seen ESDI. I would love for such a thing to exist, thinking of my Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. > > Thank you! > > -Eric > From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jul 19 23:00:27 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 21:00:27 -0700 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> References: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> Message-ID: <3EFC578F-97F0-468A-B3F1-8E4C17094843@avanthar.com> On Jul 19, 2021, at 8:03 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/11/2021 9:33 AM, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: >> Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals and >> assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment :). >> 1) Qbus scsi card > > You and me both. ;) I have one - and I intend to keep it. Yeah, they are sort of a necessity. >> 4) SD2SCSI > > Do you mean a device that emulates a SCSI drive with an SD card? Why not just go out and purchase a SCSI2SD V5.1 - a little slower than the newer ones, but works fine in my Sun, SGI and Intergraph Boxen. The SCSI2SD v5.1 should be faster than the Q-Bus. I bought several recently, and plan to put one in my PDP-11/73. I even opted for these for my VAXstation 4000?s. I figure I?ll use the newer ones in an AlphaStation. >> 11) ESDI disk emulator > > I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild. MFM, yes, but I haven't seen ESDI. I would love for such a thing to exist, thinking of my Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. I?d also love to have one of these, preferably using SD or CF cards. The Webster WQESD/04 card is a fantastic card, it?s only downfall is that it works with ESDI drives, rather than SCSI, and they?re big and loud. :-) Zane From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 05:22:16 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 06:22:16 -0400 Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software In-Reply-To: References: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <141301d77d51$1d872ca0$589585e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 7:25 PM > To: Al Kossow via cctalk > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > > On 7/19/21 4:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > It would be nice to save a complete system though, since most have been tossed out since there is little > > practical use for them now. > > I've collected a LOT of in-circuit emulators and microprocessor development systems over the decades, and > I'm trying to decide right now what I'm going to do with them. If there's an HP 64276 Microprogram Development Subsystem (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/64000/brochures/5953-9279_Micropr ogram_Development_Subsystem_Jun-1985.pdf) in there I'm interested in taking it off your hands. Or off the hands of anyone else who might have one :-}. paul From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 06:59:00 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 06:59:00 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: <3EFC578F-97F0-468A-B3F1-8E4C17094843@avanthar.com> References: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> <3EFC578F-97F0-468A-B3F1-8E4C17094843@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > > >> 11) ESDI disk emulator > > > > I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild. MFM, yes, but I > haven't seen ESDI. I would love for such a thing to exist, thinking of my > Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. > > I?d also love to have one of these, preferably using SD or CF cards. The > Webster WQESD/04 card is a fantastic card, it?s only downfall is that it > works with ESDI drives, rather than SCSI, and they?re big and loud. :-) > > Zane > > http://www.datexdsm.com/ESDI.php is what I was thinking of. There are a couple other commercial models out there on offer, no one seems to have one though in the discord or apparently here :) -Eric From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 07:17:27 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 07:17:27 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> References: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> Message-ID: > > 4) SD2SCSI > > Do you mean a device that emulates a SCSI drive with an SD card? Why > not just go out and purchase a SCSI2SD V5.1 - a little slower than the > newer ones, but works fine in my Sun, SGI and Intergraph Boxen. > > I also just bought one of the less expensive Androda SCSI emulators - > designed for Macs, really, but it might work and it is relatively > inexpensive. > Yeah I likely will, it is on the list because I would prefer to trade > > 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) > > I have some old Pertec formatters that have no bus interface. Free to > good homes. Some were mouse houses for a while, but were subsequently > cleaned up reasonably well. Models F649-72 (2 of those) and F649-40. > Heavy to ship. > > In addition, I think I have a TC031, Pertec/QBus (I think) that I really > am not using. I tried it out once - I think the issue was that I had a > Pertec interface speed mismatch between it and the HP drive I have with > a Pertec interface (which also has issues with loading tape.) I > suspect it is formatted, however. > Thank you! I will look at that model number you provided. My Kennedy 9100 drive either needs a controller, or to go away. Damn thing weighs a ton and takes a lot of room. -Eric From rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Jul 20 10:15:40 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:15:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT101 parts available, found on Reddit Message-ID: <50c85cd.2aafb.17ac47ca3e3.Webtop.91@btinternet.com> Someone on Reddit has found much of a VT101 and would like to rehome it. Not sure where he's located, but somewhere in US Thread is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/ogy6im/so_i_found_a_vt101/ From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 13:11:15 2021 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 18:11:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> For a time I had quite a few Compaq Deskpro towers that had acquired (for free) from my employer after they updated to a newer HP Compaq model. These Compaq Deskpros were the white-boxed variety with Pentium III the like processors that date to the later part of the 1990s and into the 2000s. They interested me because they were able to work with the flavors of Linux that were becoming plentiful and useful at the time (like Mandrake, etc.) Anyway, the desktops themselves are gone, as well as the PC keyboards and the monitors that went with them, with this paragraph just setting the scene.... But at the same time I also acquired (pulled) from these same computers and their siblings a whole bunch of wired Ethernet network cards, one or two video cards, a whole bunch of the IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop CD drives, and a whole bunch(!) of 10- and 20-GByte IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop hard drives. I believe the vintage makes them all PCI cards for the network and video cards. For some reason I must have had it in my head that I would all need these extra cards (and more) to keep these boxes (and other desktops) going into the future when the apocalypse came ! Now I have no need for any of these parts. I don't want to chuck them to a recycler either, but it is tempting just to get the stuff out of the house (as I need to seriously downsize prior to retirement). Is there a market for any of this that is worth pursing, or is this all too generic and plentiful to worry about? Giving shipping and that, I am not sure how much of this I'd care to deal with this through resale (eBay or privately) versus just dropping it all at the electronics recycling shop (which fortunately I have locally). Just starting to sort this out...I've been meaning to send this e-mail for awhile now. Your collective thoughts? I know most of this is too new for most of your interests... Kevin Anderson, Dubuque, Iowa From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 13:20:43 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:20:43 -0400 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you're looking to donate, Kennett Classic can use these to support what's in our "post vintage" room (goes up to 1997) Bill On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:11 PM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For a time I had quite a few Compaq Deskpro towers that had acquired (for > free) from my employer after they updated to a newer HP Compaq model. > These Compaq Deskpros were the white-boxed variety with Pentium III the > like processors that date to the later part of the 1990s and into the > 2000s. They interested me because they were able to work with the flavors > of Linux that were becoming plentiful and useful at the time (like > Mandrake, etc.) Anyway, the desktops themselves are gone, as well as the PC > keyboards and the monitors that went with them, with this paragraph just > setting the scene.... > > But at the same time I also acquired (pulled) from these same computers > and their siblings a whole bunch of wired Ethernet network cards, one or > two video cards, a whole bunch of the IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop CD drives, > and a whole bunch(!) of 10- and 20-GByte IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop hard > drives. I believe the vintage makes them all PCI cards for the network and > video cards. For some reason I must have had it in my head that I would all > need these extra cards (and more) to keep these boxes (and other desktops) > going into the future when the apocalypse came ! > > Now I have no need for any of these parts. I don't want to chuck them to a > recycler either, but it is tempting just to get the stuff out of the house > (as I need to seriously downsize prior to retirement). > > Is there a market for any of this that is worth pursing, or is this all > too generic and plentiful to worry about? Giving shipping and that, I am > not sure how much of this I'd care to deal with this through resale (eBay > or privately) versus just dropping it all at the electronics recycling shop > (which fortunately I have locally). > > Just starting to sort this out...I've been meaning to send this e-mail for > awhile now. Your collective thoughts? I know most of this is too new for > most of your interests... > > Kevin Anderson, Dubuque, Iowa > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jul 20 13:36:38 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:36:38 -0400 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d0e22c3-d3dd-b49f-526b-3e49673a91be@alembic.crystel.com> Indeed, those are nice systems. Some of them were a bit daffy (the Prosignia Pentium 120's were odd) but I still have an XE4100 that I run NextStep on. The integrated video was great.... I do however miss my Deskpro/2000. Dual Pentium Pro and by the end I had dual PODP chips running in it with I think 2-4 gb of memory. That system was impressive.... C On 7/20/2021 2:20 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > If you're looking to donate, Kennett Classic can use these to support > what's in our "post vintage" room (goes up to 1997) > Bill > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:11 PM Kevin Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> For a time I had quite a few Compaq Deskpro towers that had acquired (for >> free) from my employer after they updated to a newer HP Compaq model. >> These Compaq Deskpros were the white-boxed variety with Pentium III the >> like processors that date to the later part of the 1990s and into the >> 2000s. They interested me because they were able to work with the flavors >> of Linux that were becoming plentiful and useful at the time (like >> Mandrake, etc.) Anyway, the desktops themselves are gone, as well as the PC >> keyboards and the monitors that went with them, with this paragraph just >> setting the scene.... >> >> But at the same time I also acquired (pulled) from these same computers >> and their siblings a whole bunch of wired Ethernet network cards, one or >> two video cards, a whole bunch of the IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop CD drives, >> and a whole bunch(!) of 10- and 20-GByte IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop hard >> drives. I believe the vintage makes them all PCI cards for the network and >> video cards. For some reason I must have had it in my head that I would all >> need these extra cards (and more) to keep these boxes (and other desktops) >> going into the future when the apocalypse came ! >> >> Now I have no need for any of these parts. I don't want to chuck them to a >> recycler either, but it is tempting just to get the stuff out of the house >> (as I need to seriously downsize prior to retirement). >> >> Is there a market for any of this that is worth pursing, or is this all >> too generic and plentiful to worry about? Giving shipping and that, I am >> not sure how much of this I'd care to deal with this through resale (eBay >> or privately) versus just dropping it all at the electronics recycling shop >> (which fortunately I have locally). >> >> Just starting to sort this out...I've been meaning to send this e-mail for >> awhile now. Your collective thoughts? I know most of this is too new for >> most of your interests... >> >> Kevin Anderson, Dubuque, Iowa >> From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 20 13:44:05 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:44:05 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/21 12:11 PM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Is there a market for any of this that is worth pursing, or is this all > too generic and plentiful to worry about? Giving shipping and that, I > am not sure how much of this I'd care to deal with this through resale > (eBay or privately) versus just dropping it all at the electronics > recycling shop (which fortunately I have locally). I think there is a market for this hardware. I don't know how big it is. I don't need any of it any more than I need a hole in the head. But that being said, the collector (as in acquisitions) in me is interested to know how much it might be to ship the lot. But on the other hand I don't want to deny people who have an actual need for them. I suspect that the video cards and the hard drives are probably the more valuable parts. For a given value. /If/ I had such a stash and wanted to get rid of it, I'd inventory what I had and make it available for others to raise their hand if they are interested. I think that the drives would be worth more if they had been tested and you know that they work. E.g. run SpinRite level 4 against them. 3.3 and / or 5.0 volt PCI may also make a difference for some people. I definitely think there is a market. And that if you (or someone) is willing to put in a little effort, I'd expect that each of the components could move for $5-$25 (or maybe even more) plush S&H. But that's a time investment to get anything out of them and it sounds like the real value in them to you is the space they are occupying / will be vacating. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From pspan at amerytel.net Tue Jul 20 12:13:42 2021 From: pspan at amerytel.net (pspan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:13:42 -0500 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> I worked at a company called DMA located in Amery Wisconsin during the 80's and 90's that did do core mat repair. Yes, the gal that did the work used a scope. She replaced cores and wires. Good luck finding someone to do that work now. If I remember the process, first the mat was removed from the driver assembly, then the varnish was removed. Then the mat was repaired and revarnished and then reassembled and final test before returned to the customer. On 2021-07-20 12:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair (steven at malikoff.com) > 2. Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair (Joshua Rice) > 3. Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair (Joshua Rice) > 4. Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair (Tom Hunter) > 5. Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair (Jules Richardson) > 6. Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair (Rod Smallwood) > 7. Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Jules Richardson) > 8. Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Zane Healy) > 9. Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Al Kossow) > 10. Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Al Kossow) > 11. Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Al Kossow) > 12. Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Jules Richardson) > 13. Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Jules Richardson) > 14. Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software (Zane Healy) > 15. Re: Items Wanted (Jay Jaeger) > 16. Re: Items Wanted (Zane Healy) > 17. Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair (Toby Thain) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 17:59:59 +1000 > From: steven at malikoff.com > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > Message-ID: > <84f709701f774aebb1a07a8bbb6eb091.squirrel at webmail04.register.com> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 > > Tom said >> I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire >> in a >> PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible >> without >> a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and >> wonder >> if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards >> were >> simply discarded. >> >> CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to >> replace >> a broken core wire on those. > > I have no idea how DEC made theirs but for IBM's System 360, one of > their engineers > came up with the clever idea of stretching the core wire so it necked > and broke, leaving > a work-hardened tapered point to thread the cores with. > They patented it https://patents.google.com/patent/US3314131A > (Source: page 187 of 'IBM's 360 and early 370 Systems' by Pugh et al) > On a Youtube film about the 360 they show cores being vibrated into the > correct > orientation on a jig board. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 09:40:44 +0100 (BST) > From: Joshua Rice > To: CCtalk > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > Message-ID: <55e9b1e8.2735f.17abdecb557.Webtop.91 at btinternet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Tom Hunter via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, 19 Jul, 2021 At 06:33 > Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire > in a > PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible > without > a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and > wonder > if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards > were > simply discarded. > CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to > replace > a broken core wire on those. > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > > I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was > outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the late > 60's and early 70's. I believe it was done by machine, with a tray to > hold the toroids in place, and a very fine needle-like "bobbin" that > threaded the wires through the toroids. I believe threading the cores > by > hand had become largely obsolete by the time the PDP-8 came onto the > market. > Though i can't confirm it, i highly doubt that DEC engineers would > repair core planes. These would more likely be sent back to the > manufacturer for "recycling", with the cores being recovered and > reused. > It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the > fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being > protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the > core planes. In this way, it was rather difficult for a clumsy ol' > technician to put his thumb through the planes as he was servicing > machines. > Josh > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 09:52:13 +0100 (BST) > From: Joshua Rice > To: CCtalk > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > Message-ID: <5d5f0788.273f3.17abdf7399b.Webtop.91 at btinternet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Tom Hunter via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, 19 Jul, 2021 At 06:33 > Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire > in a > PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible > without > a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and > wonder > if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards > were > simply discarded. > CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to > replace > a broken core wire on those. > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > > These patents might be enlightening. I'm sure there's others, but these > are some i've found on a quick search. > https://patents.google.com/patent/US4161037A > > https://patents.google.com/patent/US3668664 > > Josh > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 19:02:25 +0800 > From: Tom Hunter > To: Joshua Rice , "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Thanks Josh, > > I read through both patents but struggled to fully understand what they > described. > Unfortunately patents are written in broad terms to cover as much as > possible. > > It was very interesting nevertheless. > > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 4:52 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Tom Hunter via cctalk" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Monday, 19 Jul, 2021 At 06:33 >> Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair >> I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire >> in a >> PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible >> without >> a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and >> wonder >> if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards >> were >> simply discarded. >> CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to >> replace >> a broken core wire on those. >> Best regards >> Tom Hunter >> >> >> These patents might be enlightening. I'm sure there's others, but >> these >> are some i've found on a quick search. >> https://patents.google.com/patent/US4161037A >> >> https://patents.google.com/patent/US3668664 >> >> Josh >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:10 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > Message-ID: <769e6168-9024-fa20-5b9c-ed1cb91ec641 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > On 7/19/21 3:40 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >> I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was >> outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the late >> 60's >> and early 70's. > > I've got a trio of planes here, two of which are from a Lockheed > MAC-16, > but the other one is made by Keronix out of Santa Monica for an unknown > machine (dated 1973, model number "P4" and p/n 816335 if that means > anything to anyone, approx 16"x16" with two 100-pin, double-sided > finger > edge connectors on 0.1" spacing). > > Anyhoo, the Keronix one has a sticker on it saying it was repaired by > DMA, > inc. in Amery, WI in 1980 - which might suggest that there were third > parties around working on boards, rather than them having to go back to > the > manufacturer for repair. (I have no idea what the nature of the repair > was, > of course; maybe it was to surrounding logic rather than the mat > itself). > >> It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the >> fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being >> protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the >> core >> planes. > > Yes, that's how all the ones I've ever seen have been. The Keronix one > has > an additional shield over the top of the entire PCB, on top of the one > protecting the cores. > > Jules > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 23:06:26 +0100 > From: Rod Smallwood > To: Jules Richardson via cctalk > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > > Yes most core stringing was outsourced. > > By hand under magnification was used. > > I cant recall any references to automation. > > That would br down to the supplier. > > The story I heard was at least some were done by embroidery girls in > Hong Kong > > Rod Smallwood ? -- Digital Equipment Corporation? 1975 to 1985 > > > On 19/07/2021 22:50, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/19/21 3:40 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>> I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was >>> outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the >>> late 60's and early 70's. >> >> I've got a trio of planes here, two of which are from a Lockheed >> MAC-16, but the other one is made by Keronix out of Santa Monica for >> an unknown machine (dated 1973, model number "P4" and p/n 816335 if >> that means anything to anyone, approx 16"x16" with two 100-pin, >> double-sided finger edge connectors on 0.1" spacing). >> >> Anyhoo, the Keronix one has a sticker on it saying it was repaired by >> DMA, inc. in Amery, WI in 1980 - which might suggest that there were >> third parties around working on boards, rather than them having to go >> back to the manufacturer for repair. (I have no idea what the nature >> of the repair was, of course; maybe it was to surrounding logic rather >> than the mat itself). >> >>> It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the >>> fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being >>> protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the >>> core planes. >> >> Yes, that's how all the ones I've ever seen have been. The Keronix one >> has an additional shield over the top of the entire PCB, on top of the >> one protecting the cores. >> >> Jules > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 18:03:46 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > To: CCtalk > Subject: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: <5b8f634d-93c9-22c2-fd05-6e1937767883 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > > Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 > microprocessor > lab archived out there anywhere? > > What I believe is one popped up on one of my Facebook groups, and it'd > be a > trek to get it even if I can arrange a good price with the current > owner - > but it sounds like the software at the site, if it still exists, is > unlikely to surface from a huge pile of detritus, so that automatically > puts things right in boat anchor territory. > > There may or may not be a terminal, too; I get the impression those > were > optional (I've been told that there are two Tek terminals, I just don't > know if they're the right models for this system). > > > cheers > > Jules > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:11:32 -0700 > From: Zane Healy > To: Jules Richardson , "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > You might check with the Tektronix museum, and see what they know. As > far as I know, they aren?t actually part of Tektronix. > > Zane > > > >> On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 >> microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? >> >> What I believe is one popped up on one of my Facebook groups, and it'd >> be a trek to get it even if I can arrange a good price with the >> current owner - but it sounds like the software at the site, if it >> still exists, is unlikely to surface from a huge pile of detritus, so >> that automatically puts things right in boat anchor territory. >> >> There may or may not be a terminal, too; I get the impression those >> were optional (I've been told that there are two Tek terminals, I just >> don't know if they're the right models for this system). >> >> >> cheers >> >> Jules > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:15:11 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > To: Jules Richardson via cctalk > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: <395e3439-3632-33ea-9579-883ad602b8e5 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 >> microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? > > I have some but it is hard-sectored so I've never tried to read it. > > It's pretty unlikely anyone at the tek museum would have tried to > recover > the floppies even if they had them. > > One of my 'really like to try to recover' things at CHM is we have a > bunch of floppies from > the company that designed it for Tek, but someone put a center punch > through every disk, so > I'm going to have to take them out of the jacket and try to flatten > the dent out as best as > I can. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:20:19 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 >> microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? >> > > It would be nice to save a complete system though, since most have > been tossed out since there is little > practical use for them now. I never had a whole one, just board sets > for various processors that I collected > over the years. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:25:21 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > To: Al Kossow via cctalk > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > On 7/19/21 4:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > >> It would be nice to save a complete system though, since most have >> been tossed out since there is little >> practical use for them now. > > I've collected a LOT of in-circuit emulators and microprocessor > development systems over the decades, and > I'm trying to decide right now what I'm going to do with them. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 19:53:25 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: <8d864579-a8be-c8b1-9734-d208d0c10bcf at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > On 7/19/21 6:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/19/21 4:03 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Just out of interest, is the software for the Tektronix 8002 >>> microprocessor lab archived out there anywhere? >>> >> >> It would be nice to save a complete system though, since most have >> been >> tossed out since there is little >> practical use for them now. > > Well sadly it's looking like game over. By the sounds of it there's a > basement full of old equipment and boards, and a scrapper out in OH has > offered $6k for the lot, sight unseen, just on the hope that they can > make > a buck on the gold and palladium content. > > The next offer seems to be from someone who's planning on just dumping > it > on ebay - so if the scrapper deal falls through maybe it'll resurface > on > That Auction Site for lolprice... > > This is starting to feel like one of those situations where it's a huge > shame that the original owner of this stuff didn't have a will > expressing > what should be done with it all. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:17:27 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed > > On 7/19/21 7:53 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> Well sadly it's looking like game over. By the sounds of it there's a >> basement full of old equipment and boards, and a scrapper out in OH >> has >> offered $6k for the lot, sight unseen, just on the hope that they can >> make >> a buck on the gold and palladium content. > > annnnd... right after I hit send on that, things start looking up > again. > The guy responsible for this stuff doesn't seem to want it to get > scrapped > any more than I do, and he got in touch with folks down at Cape > Canaveral > (there are various ex-NASA things in the pile), then talked to the > family > of the estate; it sounds like some of it at least might get donated to > the > collection down there. > > I'm not sure about non-NASA things at this point, we'll see - but it > sounds > like there's interest now in not junking it, at least! > > Jules > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 19:56:29 -0700 > From: Zane Healy > To: Jules Richardson , "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Tektronix 8002 microprocessor lab software > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On Jul 19, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On 7/19/21 7:53 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >>> Well sadly it's looking like game over. By the sounds of it there's a >>> basement full of old equipment and boards, and a scrapper out in OH >>> has offered $6k for the lot, sight unseen, just on the hope that they >>> can make a buck on the gold and palladium content. >> >> annnnd... right after I hit send on that, things start looking up >> again. The guy responsible for this stuff doesn't seem to want it to >> get scrapped any more than I do, and he got in touch with folks down >> at Cape Canaveral (there are various ex-NASA things in the pile), then >> talked to the family of the estate; it sounds like some of it at least >> might get donated to the collection down there. >> >> I'm not sure about non-NASA things at this point, we'll see - but it >> sounds like there's interest now in not junking it, at least! >> >> Jules > > That?s a bit of good news! > > Zane > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 22:03:49 -0500 > From: Jay Jaeger > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Items Wanted > Message-ID: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26 at charter.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 7/11/2021 9:33 AM, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: >> Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals >> and >> assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss payment >> :). >> >> 1) Qbus scsi card > > You and me both. ;) I have one - and I intend to keep it. > >> 2) Emulex TC01 >> 3) QBUS bus probe >> 4) SD2SCSI > > Do you mean a device that emulates a SCSI drive with an SD card? Why > not just go out and purchase a SCSI2SD V5.1 - a little slower than the > newer ones, but works fine in my Sun, SGI and Intergraph Boxen. > > I also just bought one of the less expensive Androda SCSI emulators - > designed for Macs, really, but it might work and it is relatively > inexpensive. > >> 5) Teletype DRPE or ARPE (already have a BRPE) paper tape punches >> 6) AED/tektronix/SGI/etc... graphics terminal > > FYI, if you have "Pizza Boxes" then I have found that the cable > commonly > available (VGA one end, 13W3 on the other - the one with switches on > it) > works well on both Sun and SGI Boxen. Google Sun VGA 13W3 on eBay. > You probably want the one with the switches.) > >> 7) Unfomatted pertec controller (any bus) > > I have some old Pertec formatters that have no bus interface. Free to > good homes. Some were mouse houses for a while, but were subsequently > cleaned up reasonably well. Models F649-72 (2 of those) and F649-40. > Heavy to ship. > > In addition, I think I have a TC031, Pertec/QBus (I think) that I > really > am not using. I tried it out once - I think the issue was that I had a > Pertec interface speed mismatch between it and the HP drive I have with > a Pertec interface (which also has issues with loading tape.) I > suspect it is formatted, however. > >> 8) S100 jade bus probe, system monitor board, or similar >> 9) Anything fabri-tek, Gould, or SEL > > I have a Fabritek memory box. I think it was on a PDP-12, but am not > 100% certain without going back and looking at old paperwork. I am not > sure of its condition, electrically speaking - whether it had slots for > cables, or cables coming out of it, and if the latter, whether they are > intact. It has been stored in my basement for decades, low and dray. > That would take some work to pry out of my hands. > >> 10) blinkenlights and flippenpaddles computers, any interesting front >> panels, etc... >> 11) ESDI disk emulator > > I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild. MFM, yes, but I > haven't seen ESDI. I would love for such a thing to exist, thinking > of > my Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. > >> >> Thank you! >> >> -Eric >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 21:00:27 -0700 > From: Zane Healy > To: Jay Jaeger , "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Items Wanted > Message-ID: <3EFC578F-97F0-468A-B3F1-8E4C17094843 at avanthar.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On Jul 19, 2021, at 8:03 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On 7/11/2021 9:33 AM, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello, I am looking for any of the following items. I have terminals >>> and >>> assorted qbus and S100 cards for trade, or am happy to discuss >>> payment :). >>> 1) Qbus scsi card >> >> You and me both. ;) I have one - and I intend to keep it. > > Yeah, they are sort of a necessity. > >>> 4) SD2SCSI >> >> Do you mean a device that emulates a SCSI drive with an SD card? Why >> not just go out and purchase a SCSI2SD V5.1 - a little slower than the >> newer ones, but works fine in my Sun, SGI and Intergraph Boxen. > > The SCSI2SD v5.1 should be faster than the Q-Bus. I bought several > recently, and plan to put one in my PDP-11/73. I even opted for these > for my VAXstation 4000?s. I figure I?ll use the newer ones in an > AlphaStation. > >>> 11) ESDI disk emulator >> >> I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild. MFM, yes, but I >> haven't seen ESDI. I would love for such a thing to exist, thinking >> of my Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. > > I?d also love to have one of these, preferably using SD or CF cards. > The Webster WQESD/04 card is a fantastic card, it?s only downfall is > that it works with ESDI drives, rather than SCSI, and they?re big and > loud. :-) > > Zane > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 18:16:28 -0400 > From: Toby Thain > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair > Message-ID: <820d43ed-e32d-4394-4038-bb662f5e6798 at telegraphics.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 > > On 2021-07-19 6:06 p.m., Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >> >> Yes most core stringing was outsourced. >> > > There's more detail on early core production in the book "IBM's Early > Computers", iirc. (And possibly "A Few Good Men From Univac".) > > >> ... >> Rod Smallwood ? -- Digital Equipment Corporation? 1975 to 1985 >> >> >> On 19/07/2021 22:50, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 7/19/21 3:40 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: >>>> I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was >>>> outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the >>>> late 60's and early 70's. >>> >>> I've got a trio of planes here, two of which are from a Lockheed >>> MAC-16, but the other one is made by Keronix out of Santa Monica for >>> an unknown machine (dated 1973, model number "P4" and p/n 816335 if >>> that means anything to anyone, approx 16"x16" with two 100-pin, >>> double-sided finger edge connectors on 0.1" spacing). >>> >>> Anyhoo, the Keronix one has a sticker on it saying it was repaired by >>> DMA, inc. in Amery, WI in 1980 - which might suggest that there were >>> third parties around working on boards, rather than them having to go >>> back to the manufacturer for repair. (I have no idea what the nature >>> of the repair was, of course; maybe it was to surrounding logic >>> rather >>> than the mat itself). >>> >>>> It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the >>>> fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being >>>> protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the >>>> core planes. >>> >>> Yes, that's how all the ones I've ever seen have been. The Keronix >>> one >>> has an additional shield over the top of the entire PCB, on top of >>> the >>> one protecting the cores. >>> >>> Jules > > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 82, Issue 15 > ************************************** From hills.barry at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 12:30:38 2021 From: hills.barry at gmail.com (Barry Hills) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:30:38 -0700 Subject: WANTED: IBM 360 operators panel Message-ID: <2BB5CCCE-1CD0-4F67-B847-2908F932B053@gmail.com> I am looking for an IBM 360 operator panel. Model 55 would be wonderful but I would consider any 360/370. To be used for demo so condition of switches & lights is important. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Jul 20 14:27:11 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:27:11 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> <3EFC578F-97F0-468A-B3F1-8E4C17094843@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/2021 6:59 AM, Eric Moore wrote: > > > >> 11) ESDI disk emulator > > > > I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild.? MFM, yes, but I > haven't seen ESDI.? ?I would love for such a thing to exist, > thinking of my Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. > > I?d also love to have one of these, preferably using SD or CF > cards.? The Webster WQESD/04 card is a fantastic card, it?s only > downfall is that it works with ESDI drives, rather than SCSI, and > they?re big and loud. :-) > > Zane > > > http://www.datexdsm.com/ESDI.php is > what I was thinking of. There are a couple other commercial models out > there on offer, no one seems to have one though in the discord or > apparently here :) > > -Eric > > I fear these, as well as those shown on one or two other websites, are vapor-ware. The MFM emulators all seem out of stock, the ESDI emulator (DWX750) "documentation" is not even a page - just a "blurb". JRJ From rsmilward at frontier.com Tue Jul 20 14:27:19 2021 From: rsmilward at frontier.com (Richard Milward) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 15:27:19 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair References: Message-ID: Going by the size, I'd say the Keronix board is for a Data General Nova or one of its ilk. Keronix did make core boards with p/n starting 816 for Novas. **Richard Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:10 -0500 From: Jules Richardson To:cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair Message-ID:<769e6168-9024-fa20-5b9c-ed1cb91ec641 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed On 7/19/21 3:40 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > I believe much of the core manufacturing for DEC minicomputers was > outsourced, but a lot of it had become much more automated by the late 60's > and early 70's. I've got a trio of planes here, two of which are from a Lockheed MAC-16, but the other one is made by Keronix out of Santa Monica for an unknown machine (dated 1973, model number "P4" and p/n 816335 if that means anything to anyone, approx 16"x16" with two 100-pin, double-sided finger edge connectors on 0.1" spacing). Anyhoo, the Keronix one has a sticker on it saying it was repaired by DMA, inc. in Amery, WI in 1980 - which might suggest that there were third parties around working on boards, rather than them having to go back to the manufacturer for repair. (I have no idea what the nature of the repair was, of course; maybe it was to surrounding logic rather than the mat itself). > It's worth noting that most computer manufacturers appreciated the > fragility of core memory planes at the time, with most of them being > protected with either PCB's or perspex/plastic shields on top of the core > planes. Yes, that's how all the ones I've ever seen have been. The Keronix one has an additional shield over the top of the entire PCB, on top of the one protecting the cores. Jules From cube1 at charter.net Tue Jul 20 15:07:49 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 15:07:49 -0500 Subject: IBM 1410 Processor Operating System Compiler Status Report In-Reply-To: <2BB5CCCE-1CD0-4F67-B847-2908F932B053@gmail.com> References: <2BB5CCCE-1CD0-4F67-B847-2908F932B053@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2e9f706b-8e79-7b0a-1c1d-67ca78944adf@charter.net> Over the past few weeks I have been playing with the COBOL, FORTRAN and RPG compilers that are present on the IBM 1410 PR108 Processor Operating system tape, available at: http://piercefuller.com/library/kau1401s.html (it is really 1410) and https://sky-visions.com/ibm/ibm7010_soft.shtml (For use under SimH) FORTRAN: While the compiler seems to function, this is probably a "lost cause" as we have neither the FORTRAN library, nor the relocatable loader required - those were shipped by IBM on a separate tape. Getting around this would require reproducing both. COBOL: It is not usable in its current state, but maybe not a totally lost cause. It requires some macros (notably "MOVE=" for any MOVE statements) and Subroutines accessed via Autocoder CALL (for example, to use the DISPLAY verb.) I have no current plans to do such work. One would have to code some programs, see what got generated, and then create (or modify ones that had been started earlier) macros to support the result. It would take a lot of work, but not impossibly much. The relevant early IBM COBOL General Information manual is now available on bitsavers at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/generalInfo/F28-8053-2_COBOL_General_Information_1961.pdf I have a copy of the relevant IBM 1410 compiler supplement, manual number C28-0330, but it is on Fiche and portions are not very good images. RPG 1410-RG-910-43: This turned into an "ugly duckling" of sorts. We have only the sparse information provided in the PR-134 Processor Operating System manual, C28-0287-1 (available on bitsavers). HOWEVER, as luck and history would have it, it turned out that this RPG is based on an extremely similar to one of the early 1401 RPG "compilers" for which a manual *is* available, J24-0215-2. [I discovered this by looking at the 1410 bibliography, find the form numbers for the coding forms for 1410 RPG, and searching for those, and getting hits on the 1401 manual, above.) With that information, along with a little bit of disassembly to figure out most of what goes into the PR-108 "RG" control card it uses, I was able to put together a couple of sample programs, and kept some notes as well as a partial disassembly of Phase RPG1. This might be the earliest RPG available anywhere - I haven't seen a 1401 RPG tape image anywhere to date, though maybe someone has one I am not aware of. Also, since it generates Autocoder, it might not be impossibly difficult to port one of the samples back to the 1401 - the logic implemented in the 1410 RPG generated Autocoder appears very very similar to that described in the 1401 manual. The materials I put together relating to the IBM 1410 RPG "compiler" are now available in a zip file at (feel free to copy) https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1RXtSCW0EpBYQqb_EY_iqnLUqt4btYWVt?usp=sharing JRJ From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 19:34:50 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:34:50 -0700 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> <3EFC578F-97F0-468A-B3F1-8E4C17094843@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:06 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 7/20/2021 6:59 AM, Eric Moore wrote: > > > > > > >> 11) ESDI disk emulator > > > > > > I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild. MFM, yes, but I > > haven't seen ESDI. I would love for such a thing to exist, > > thinking of my Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. > > > > I?d also love to have one of these, preferably using SD or CF > > cards. The Webster WQESD/04 card is a fantastic card, it?s only > > downfall is that it works with ESDI drives, rather than SCSI, and > > they?re big and loud. :-) > > > > Zane > > > > > > http://www.datexdsm.com/ESDI.php is > > what I was thinking of. There are a couple other commercial models out > > there on offer, no one seems to have one though in the discord or > > apparently here :) > > > > -Eric > > > > > > I fear these, as well as those shown on one or two other websites, are > vapor-ware. The MFM emulators all seem out of stock, the ESDI emulator > (DWX750) "documentation" is not even a page - just a "blurb". > > I had a similar experience with a set of emulators made by Arraid -- LCM inquired about one of their SMD emulators ( https://www.arraid.com/data-storage-products/product/aem-1.html) and the response we got was "we can no longer source the parts to manufacture these, we have a few remaining in stock that we will sell for $10,000 a piece." We did not purchase one. I suspect that even if you could find someone to sell you one of these emulators, they would be extremely expensive. I have never seen one for sale on the used market. If you find one, consider yourself lucky. If anyone *DOES* have one of these SMD emulators and wants to find a new home for it, do drop me a line. - Josh > JRJ > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Jul 20 21:47:39 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:47:39 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted In-Reply-To: References: <9ac110f9-2407-c9ba-6ec5-d70e9fd10d26@charter.net> <3EFC578F-97F0-468A-B3F1-8E4C17094843@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/2021 7:34 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:06 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > > wrote: > > On 7/20/2021 6:59 AM, Eric Moore wrote: > > > > > >? ? ? >> 11) ESDI disk emulator > >? ? ? > > >? ? ? > I am not aware of any such beasties in the wild.? MFM, > yes, but I > >? ? ?haven't seen ESDI.? ?I would love for such a thing to exist, > >? ? ?thinking of my Apollo, 3B2 and IBM RT/PC workstations. > > > >? ? ?I?d also love to have one of these, preferably using SD or CF > >? ? ?cards.? The Webster WQESD/04 card is a fantastic card, it?s only > >? ? ?downfall is that it works with ESDI drives, rather than SCSI, and > >? ? ?they?re big and loud. :-) > > > >? ? ?Zane > > > > > > http://www.datexdsm.com/ESDI.php > > is > > what I was thinking of. There are a couple other commercial > models out > > there on offer, no one seems to have one though in the discord or > > apparently here :) > > > > -Eric > > > > > > I fear these, as well as those shown on one or two other websites, are > vapor-ware.? The MFM emulators all seem out of stock, the ESDI emulator > (DWX750) "documentation" is not even a page - just a "blurb". > > > I had a similar experience with a set of emulators made by Arraid -- LCM > inquired about one of their SMD emulators > (https://www.arraid.com/data-storage-products/product/aem-1.html > ) and > the response we got was "we can no longer source the parts to > manufacture these, we have a few remaining in stock that we will sell > for $10,000 a piece."? We did not purchase one. > > I suspect that even if you could find someone to sell you one of these > emulators, they would be extremely expensive.? I have never seen one for > sale on the used market.? If you find one, consider yourself lucky.? If > anyone *DOES* have one of these SMD emulators and wants to find a new > home for it, do drop me a line. > > - Josh > > > JRJ > For SMD, this patent may have been a bit of a stumbling block at one time, though if it was approved, it would have expired long ago. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO1990001193A1/en JRJ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 18:04:52 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 18:04:52 -0500 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> Message-ID: <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> On 7/20/21 12:13 PM, pspan via cctech wrote: > I worked at a company called DMA located in Amery Wisconsin during the 80's > and 90's that did do core mat repair. Yes, the gal that did the work used a > scope. She replaced cores and wires. Good luck finding someone to do that > work now. If I remember the process, first the mat was removed from the > driver assembly, then the varnish was removed. Then the mat was repaired > and revarnished and then reassembled and final test before returned to the > customer. Oh, well there you go... perhaps the board that I have was repaired by the gal that you're talking about :-) Unfortunately there are no initials on my board (as was often the case for board repairs), only a date and job number. Jules From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jul 20 19:15:36 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:15:36 -0700 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> On 2021-Jul-20, at 4:04 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: > On 7/20/21 12:13 PM, pspan via cctech wrote: >> I worked at a company called DMA located in Amery Wisconsin during the 80's and 90's that did do core mat repair. Yes, the gal that did the work used a scope. She replaced cores and wires. Good luck finding someone to do that work now. If I remember the process, first the mat was removed from the driver assembly, then the varnish was removed. Then the mat was repaired and revarnished and then reassembled and final test before returned to the customer. > > Oh, well there you go... perhaps the board that I have was repaired by the gal that you're talking about :-) > > Unfortunately there are no initials on my board (as was often the case for board repairs), only a date and job number. In general comment to the topic, I have seen planar arrays ("mats") with some number of randomly-situated wire splices in them. These splices are in the gaps between bit arrays, not interior to a bit array (there isn't enough space between cores). The splices are covered in a tiny dollop of (by appearance) silicon putty for insulation. The number of splices and consistency of appearance suggests they were done at the time of manufacture, while the random distribution suggests they were not part of the manufacturing intention. That is to say, the manufacturing process was itself less than perfect and necessitated 'repairs' so to speak. On the question of manual vs automated assembly, I take it this could involve a mixture. For example, stringing a number of cores onto a single wire for one axis would be easy to automate, stringing the second axis is more difficult. The development of 3-wire topologies over 4-wire would have helped automation, or reduced manual effort, considerably. For stringing, the really awkward aspect of the original 4-wire topology was the sense wire that angled through all the cores at 45 degrees to the X,Y,I wires. This was alleviated in the 3-wire topology where there is just 90 degree and parallel relations. From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Jul 21 00:35:50 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:35:50 +0200 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <832897d1-53e1-f6cf-5235-65dcda74f5c9@greenmail.ch> On 21.07.21 02:15, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > In general comment to the topic, I have seen planar arrays ("mats") with some number of randomly-situated wire splices in them. > These splices are in the gaps between bit arrays, not interior to a bit array (there isn't enough space between cores). > The splices are covered in a tiny dollop of (by appearance) silicon putty for insulation. > I have seen the same, and measured that these splices can turn highohmic. I recovered an 8/L coremat by resoldering these splices. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jul 20 23:50:24 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:50:24 -0700 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> Message-ID: On 7/20/2021 10:13 AM, pspan via cctech wrote: > I worked at a company called DMA located in Amery Wisconsin during the > 80's and 90's that did do core mat repair. Yes, the gal that did the > work used a scope. She replaced cores and wires. Good luck finding > someone to do that work now. If I remember the process, first the mat > was removed from the driver assembly, then the varnish was removed. > Then the mat was repaired and revarnished and then reassembled and > final test before returned to the customer. There was a company started around a lady who did the core repair (one of two) at Microdata. They had inhouse built up from scratch cores of 8 and 16k size.? Later the Ampex core division which was sold to CDC manufactured a 32k version.? There were also Keronix 8k which went in Micro 800s and 1600s.? Earlier there were 4k boards for the 800s. Anyway the company was Memtek and was located on Grand Ave in Santa Ana, CA.? They ran into the early 80s until the married couple won one of the early lotteries for $1m.? The lady wanted to keep working and the operated for another 18 months when they hit another jackpot for $1m. That was all she wrote.? I had a chance to buy the core rework equipment, but didn't. There was a pretty expensive micro spot welder that she used with a microscope and a lot of skill plus some cutting devices to free the wiring.? The patches she did (and the others I saw from the Microdata lady that remained there) looked like they stood up in the air over the core plane.? used an acetone soluble material to hold the patch with a tiny dab on the patch. The Microdata operation that manufactured 16k cores was relocated to Puerto Rico and ran for a number of years. The welding device as I understood it was pretty expensive and very precise.? I saw, but didn't photograph both off the rework stations. Somewhere in the pile because we (Microdata) manufactured core I have a big box of sample vials dumped by a purchasing engineering guy when he was laid off.? I think they were still buying cores, but he wasn't in a good mood that day. A lot of good stuff went home with me that evening as I wasn't laid of. As one of my early exercises like that felt like a vulture, but it was funny as I found three other guys picking thru cubicles of laid off guys picking over goodies.? Felt pretty bad, but you gotta pick up stuff when it presents itself. Observation about that, was on a Friday the layoffs took place.? The hatchet man thought that he actually had a job in charge or Engineering, he was fired the second Friday after he terminated about 40 engineers. (Karma). And the slow ones that thought about the empty cubicles. took to about Tuesday for some of them to mention in casual conversation (Gee maybe some good stuff is left in the laid off guy's cubes / offices).? Well, Duh. anyway a story about core and other stuff. thanks Jim From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 04:20:35 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 11:20:35 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 20:11, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > But at the same time I also acquired (pulled) from these same computers and their siblings a whole bunch of wired Ethernet network cards I _think_ ISA ones are in more demand these days. > one or two video cards, PCI? > a whole bunch of the IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop CD drives CD, or CDRW, or DVD, or DVDRW? > and a whole bunch(!) of 10- and 20-GByte IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop hard drives I consider this bit unlikely TBH. 5.25" *IDE* HDDs were _extremely_ rare. The 5.25" format was dead before IDE came along, and 99% were 3.5", except the Quantum Bigfoot range. Those were slow, unreliable, but cheap. I have one, as a sentimental reminder of full-width hard disk drives from the beginning of my career. > I believe the vintage makes them all PCI cards for the network and video cards. You can't tell?! They don't even look similar. Google will give you pics in seconds. You will need to identify this stuff much more specifically. Makes, models, capacities, speeds, etc. E.g. nobody wants 10base-2 or Thick Ethernet cards much any more. UTP, slightly more so: 10base-T, not much, 100base-T somewhat yes. Plain old CD? Probably not. DVDRW? You might find takers. Graphics: depends what. Early 3D cards are somewhat wanted. Tiny IDE hard disks, probably not. CF-card is cheaper, faster and more reliable. It's not worth a lot. OTOH, those unique Compaq combined 5.25" + 3.5" floppy drives are quite sought-after. SCSI drives are quite desirable. It's probably not worth a _lot_ but maybe a few hundred bucks if you are specific and ship anywhere. Remember a lot of collectors are in countries where this stuff is very hard to come by, and will pay top dollar. But you need to be willing to be specific, list exact model numbers, take photos showing ID labels, and ideally, to _test it_. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 06:48:08 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:48:08 -0500 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> On 7/21/21 4:20 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> and a whole bunch(!) of 10- and 20-GByte IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop hard drives > > I consider this bit unlikely TBH. 5.25" *IDE* HDDs were _extremely_ > rare. The 5.25" format was dead before IDE came along, and 99% were > 3.5", except the Quantum Bigfoot range. Those were slow, unreliable, > but cheap. I have one, as a sentimental reminder of full-width hard > disk drives from the beginning of my career. Compaq were big fans of the Bigfoot drives, if I remember right - I expect that's what they are. I'd put them in that "rare but not valuable" category though, possibly of minor interest to a few collectors or museums just for the quirky aspect. Regarding your "IDE HDDs were extremely rare" comment, did *anyone* other than Quantum release an IDE drive in that 5.25" form factor? I can't think of any, everything else was 3.5", although some early vendor's drives were the same height as a "half height" 5.25" drive. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 20 21:04:11 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:04:11 -0500 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> Message-ID: <20210721123804.5B10627476@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:13 PM 7/20/2021, pspan via cctalk wrote: >I worked at a company called DMA located in Amery Wisconsin during the 80's and 90's that did do core mat repair. And why were they in Amery, WI - a very small town? - John From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 08:59:02 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:59:02 -0400 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <20210721123804.5B10627476@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <20210721123804.5B10627476@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 20, 2021, at 10:04 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 12:13 PM 7/20/2021, pspan via cctalk wrote: >> I worked at a company called DMA located in Amery Wisconsin during the 80's and 90's that did do core mat repair. > > And why were they in Amery, WI - a very small town? > > - John Perhaps because someone there started the business, did a good job, and since the field wasn't big enough to support two companies he ended up owning the one and only core repair company in the US. Re an earlier comment about 3-wire vs. 4-wire topologies, if you want to see even wilder stuff take a look at the design of the CDC 6000 core modules. It's documented in one of the training manuals on Bitsavers. It uses a FIVE wire design, with two inhibit wires rather than one. And the inhibit wire doesn't run through the whole plane as is usual; there are four horizontal and four vertical inhibit wires. The description doesn't give a reason, but my assumption for why this was done is that the total inductance of each of the driven wires (X, Y, InhX and InhY) in the 12-bit stack is roughly the same. That means a single driver design works for all those wires. The other thing that's interesting is that the drivers don't switch current on and off; instead, they switch current from an idling inductor to the wire. Again, it doesn't say why; I assume it is for speed (short pulse duration). Certainly the performance of those memories -- 1 microsecond read/restore cycle and under 500 ns access time -- is astoundingly fast for 1964. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 09:08:17 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:08:17 -0400 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <81431192-FBC8-4551-A0C1-A03498BAD5FF@comcast.net> > On Jul 20, 2021, at 8:15 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctech wrote: > > ... > The development of 3-wire topologies over 4-wire would have helped automation, or reduced manual effort, considerably. For stringing, the really awkward aspect of the original 4-wire topology was the sense wire that angled through all the cores at 45 degrees to the X,Y,I wires. This was alleviated in the 3-wire topology where there is just 90 degree and parallel relations. There is even such a thing as 2-wire core memory. That means no coincident current addressing, instead each address wire directly addresses a column of cores and the sense wires (horizontal) sense the bits in the word. CDC 6000 series ECS -- bulk core memory used as a very fast block transfer storage -- was built that way, with 488 bit words (8 60-bit CPU words plus parity, 3.2 microsecond cycle time, 4-way interleaved to deliver a CPU word every 100 ns CPU "minor cycle"). In the 1950s, bistable (square hysteresis loop) cores were used as logic elements. Ken Olsen, the founder of DEC, did his MS thesis work on this. And I have somewhere an article about a keyboard operated Morse code sending device from that era that is built around a ferrite core shift register. It isn't usually described this way, but a good way to think of conventional core memory is as an array of logic elements. Each core is a three input AND gate, with the inputs being X, Y, and not-Inhibit. paul From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jul 21 09:32:31 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:32:31 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 06:48:08AM -0500, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: [...] > Regarding your "IDE HDDs were extremely rare" comment, did *anyone* other > than Quantum release an IDE drive in that 5.25" form factor? I can't think > of any, everything else was 3.5", although some early vendor's drives were > the same height as a "half height" 5.25" drive. Not quite answering the question you asked, but optical drives from 15-25 years ago are 5.25" IDE devices. Miniscribe also shipped MFM disks with an ATA adaptor board -- okay, IDE is exactly that, but these were visibly discrete components -- although I can't find an example of such a contraption which shipped with a 5.25" MFM disk. It's likely that the adaptor board would "work" when transplanted onto a 5.25" disk, although getting it to properly handle the different geometry may be challenging. Given my failure to find a proper counterexample (not that I seriously expected to find one), I agree that the Quantum Bigfoot was almost certainly one of a kind. It was a niche product which only had a few years of viability, and given that apart from capacity, Bigfoots (Bigfeet?) were terrible drives, we'd have paid close attention to any competing drives and would still remember them. From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 09:32:57 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:32:57 +0800 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <832897d1-53e1-f6cf-5235-65dcda74f5c9@greenmail.ch> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> <832897d1-53e1-f6cf-5235-65dcda74f5c9@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: Hi Jos, Resoldered how? The wires are _very_ thin (I guess 0.1 mm or thinner - think of human hair) and they are covered with some form of high-temperature lacquer which you would have to remove first. Also the dimensions of all this stuff is _tiny_. There is just no space to poke anything in to solder a joint. Your average fine tipped soldering iron would be ridiculously large to even try. I wonder if spot welding would work using the tip of a fine needle. Of course before you can even attempt to repair a broken wire you have to locate the break. Best regards Tom Hunter On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 1:36 PM jos via cctalk wrote: > On 21.07.21 02:15, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > > > In general comment to the topic, I have seen planar arrays ("mats") with > some number of randomly-situated wire splices in them. > > These splices are in the gaps between bit arrays, not interior to a bit > array (there isn't enough space between cores). > > The splices are covered in a tiny dollop of (by appearance) silicon > putty for insulation. > > > I have seen the same, and measured that these splices can turn highohmic. > I recovered an 8/L coremat by resoldering these splices. > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 10:19:28 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 17:19:28 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 at 16:32, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > Not quite answering the question you asked, but optical drives from 15-25 > years ago are 5.25" IDE devices. If one were inclined to be _excessively_ persnickety, one could say that they were ATAPI devices, which in turn implies EIDE rather than plain old IDE, no? IIRC the original capacity ceiling on IDE was 504MB or something, so I think the capacity of a CD (~650MB) would make a strictly IDE CD drive impossible...? I can't think of anything other than the Bigfoot, no. I didn't know Compaq favoured them, though... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Jul 21 10:33:46 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 17:33:46 +0200 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> <832897d1-53e1-f6cf-5235-65dcda74f5c9@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <26787260-d6e2-ad64-3be0-fabb3960d574@greenmail.ch> On 21.07.21 16:32, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jos, > > Resoldered how? These joints are located above the core-mat. I just used my tiniest tip to reheat, no solder added. These joints were not broken, just highohmic,? several? 100 Ohms . I am still wondering what the exact failure was. I did not bother removing ( or reapplying ) that laquer. Jos From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 21 11:00:44 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:00:44 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9e8a3640-4db7-8bd1-4b99-54b51a7f8037@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/21/21 3:20 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I _think_ ISA ones are in more demand these days. I suspect there are more people restoring ISA systems than PCI systems. But that's probably a matter of time. > CD, or CDRW, or DVD, or DVDRW? I doubt it's likely, but (traditional) WORM drives are not out of the question. (I'm not counting CDs / DVDs in the /traditional/ WORM mix, despite many early writable drives being exactly that.) > You can't tell?! They don't even look similar. Google will give you > pics in seconds. Sadly, that might not be enough to discern things. I've seen similar cases used for a lot of different internal components. The OP (or someone else on their behalf) is almost certainly going to need to get more details to share with would be buyers. > You will need to identify this stuff much more specifically. Makes, > models, capacities, speeds, etc. Yep. > E.g. nobody wants 10base-2 or Thick Ethernet cards much any more. UTP, > slightly more so: 10base-T, not much, 100base-T somewhat yes. Um ... that's not true. I just purchased 10Base? cards specifically for the AUI ports to connect to my 10Base5 / "Thicknet" segment. Depending on price, I'd probably walk away from a swap meet with more too. > Plain old CD? Probably not. DVDRW? You might find takers. It depends. I've talked with a handful of people wanting some sort of CD-ROM or their retro computers. They prefer the faster IDE drives. But they would rather have the slower IDE drives than nothing. So I believe that there is a reasonable chance that CD-ROMs sill have some value. > Graphics: depends what. Early 3D cards are somewhat wanted. I still see some value in 2D cards. I'd lay down a $5 bill for a PCI 2D card like I had years ago. -- If I'm willing to do it, I assume that there are others that are willing to do it too. > Tiny IDE hard disks, probably not. CF-card is cheaper, faster and > more reliable. It depends on the capacity and price. And /known/ status of the drive. "For parts"? Probably not much value at all. Maybe for in a lot for someone else to test. "Known working / passed SpinRite Level 4" much more likely. They aren't IDE, but I suspect that drives in IBM PS/2s that were known to be working would be worth more than the smaller IDE drives. I think that mostly means ESDI and SCSI. > It's not worth a lot. > > OTOH, those unique Compaq combined 5.25" + 3.5" floppy drives are > quite sought-after. #truth > SCSI drives are quite desirable. > > It's probably not worth a _lot_ but maybe a few hundred bucks if > you are specific and ship anywhere. Remember a lot of collectors are > in countries where this stuff is very hard to come by, and will pay > top dollar. > > But you need to be willing to be specific, list exact model numbers, > take photos showing ID labels, and ideally, to _test it_. Yep. Though it sounds like the OP wasn't interested in doing this. As such, I suspect that the OP is probably looking for someone to acquire (large portions of) the lot and let that buyer test / resell things with details and shipping to lots of places. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 21 11:27:32 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:27:32 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0e85b7b5-4de1-bf98-e096-145bc1376122@sydex.com> On 7/21/21 8:19 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > IIRC the original capacity ceiling on IDE was 504MB or something, so I > think the capacity of a CD (~650MB) would make a strictly IDE CD drive > impossible...? > > I can't think of anything other than the Bigfoot, no. I didn't know > Compaq favoured them, though... CDC/Imprimis certainly had ATA half-height 5.25 drives in their Wren II line--I used them. e.g. 94204 series. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 11:41:19 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:41:19 -0400 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <9e8a3640-4db7-8bd1-4b99-54b51a7f8037@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <9e8a3640-4db7-8bd1-4b99-54b51a7f8037@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 21, 2021, at 12:00 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/21/21 3:20 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> E.g. nobody wants 10base-2 or Thick Ethernet cards much any more. UTP, slightly more so: 10base-T, not much, 100base-T somewhat yes. > > Um ... that's not true. I just purchased 10Base? cards specifically for the AUI ports to connect to my 10Base5 / "Thicknet" segment. Depending on price, I'd probably walk away from a swap meet with more too. BTW, you don't need an AUI port to connect to Thicknet. If you have a 10Base2 NIC, you can connect it with a T connector (at the NIC -- no length of coax from T to NIC). Or you can use an N to BNC connector to splice a length of thick to a length of thin cable. All that works fine (subject to the 10Base2 scale limits) since the impedance is 50 ohms in either case. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 14:20:43 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:20:43 -0500 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> <832897d1-53e1-f6cf-5235-65dcda74f5c9@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <9ae7074f-43a2-183b-773d-300a7065f919@gmail.com> On 7/21/21 9:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jos, > > Resoldered how? > > The wires are _very_ thin (I guess 0.1 mm or thinner - think of human hair) It's not at all scientific, but I took a photo via a loupe of one of my core boards with a cat hair over the top a couple of years ago, and the wires are about half the width of the cat hair; I think that likely puts them in the region of 0.02mm or thereabouts, with the diameter of the cores being about ten times that. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 14:57:44 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:57:44 -0400 Subject: core matt repair In-Reply-To: <9ae7074f-43a2-183b-773d-300a7065f919@gmail.com> References: <4623e365868d6e59c3a994d4cc6e6a8c@amerytel.net> <205dee38-73b7-c0b8-e1f4-8bb9aedd2e84@gmail.com> <1A565D36-6EF2-41F9-A045-683863F4CC71@shaw.ca> <832897d1-53e1-f6cf-5235-65dcda74f5c9@greenmail.ch> <9ae7074f-43a2-183b-773d-300a7065f919@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 21, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/21/21 9:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Jos, >> Resoldered how? >> The wires are _very_ thin (I guess 0.1 mm or thinner - think of human hair) > > It's not at all scientific, but I took a photo via a loupe of one of my core boards with a cat hair over the top a couple of years ago, and the wires are about half the width of the cat hair; I think that likely puts them in the region of 0.02mm or thereabouts, with the diameter of the cores being about ten times that. Wire that size is readily available; I just spent 15 seconds in Google and turned up one that sells "magnet wire" (enamel insulated copper wire) in sizes as small as 0.011 mm. You'd have to handle that stuff pretty carefully... paul From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 15:14:06 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:14:06 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <9e8a3640-4db7-8bd1-4b99-54b51a7f8037@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <9e8a3640-4db7-8bd1-4b99-54b51a7f8037@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 at 18:00, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > I suspect there are more people restoring ISA systems than PCI systems. > But that's probably a matter of time. True. What I was thinking of was the relatively narrow gap between PCI systems starting to appear and most of them gaining built-in NICs. > I doubt it's likely, but (traditional) WORM drives are not out of the > question. (I'm not counting CDs / DVDs in the /traditional/ WORM mix, > despite many early writable drives being exactly that.) Fair point. I'd expect SCSI but it's certainly possible. > Sadly, that might not be enough to discern things. I've seen similar > cases used for a lot of different internal components. No, I meant holding a NIC in one's hand and looking at it. Fat contact strips: probably ISA. 2 sets, with thin parts interleaving 2 sets at different levels on the edge connector: EISA Narrow contact strips: PCI. Which variant, of course, has a bigger option... PCI, 64-bit PCI, PCI-X, PCI-E, etc. > The OP (or > someone else on their behalf) is almost certainly going to need to get > more details to share with would be buyers. Strongly agreed. > Um ... that's not true. I just purchased 10Base? cards specifically for > the AUI ports to connect to my 10Base5 / "Thicknet" segment. Depending > on price, I'd probably walk away from a swap meet with more too. > (!) OK. Few people will want? ;-) > It depends. I've talked with a handful of people wanting some sort of > CD-ROM or their retro computers. They prefer the faster IDE drives. > But they would rather have the slower IDE drives than nothing. So I > believe that there is a reasonable chance that CD-ROMs sill have some value. OK. > I still see some value in 2D cards. I'd lay down a $5 bill for a PCI 2D > card like I had years ago. -- If I'm willing to do it, I assume that > there are others that are willing to do it too. OK, fair enough. > It depends on the capacity and price. And /known/ status of the drive. > "For parts"? Probably not much value at all. Maybe for in a lot for > someone else to test. "Known working / passed SpinRite Level 4" much > more likely. Yes, true. Known good, recently tested, will be worth much more. > They aren't IDE, but I suspect that drives in IBM PS/2s that were known > to be working would be worth more than the smaller IDE drives. I think > that mostly means ESDI and SCSI. Oh, yes, those are like hen's teeth. > Though it sounds like the OP wasn't interested in doing this. As such, > I suspect that the OP is probably looking for someone to acquire (large > portions of) the lot and let that buyer test / resell things with > details and shipping to lots of places. Well yes. Someone in the 2600 mag FB group recently posted a few pics of a collection, including multiple _boxed_ IBM PS/2s, and said they wanted rid of them all as one lot. In parts, it was 100% definitely thousands of dollars' worth. As a job lot? Lucky to find someone, I suspect. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bear at typewritten.org Wed Jul 21 12:51:30 2021 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:51:30 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> > Regarding your "IDE HDDs were extremely rare" comment, did *anyone* other than Quantum release an IDE drive in that 5.25" form factor? I can't think of any, everything else was 3.5", although some early vendor's drives were the same height as a "half height" 5.25" drive. > CDC 94208-51, 62, -75. The -51 is Compaq drive type 17. ok bear. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 15:14:27 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:14:27 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 at 19:51, r.stricklin via cctech wrote: > > > Regarding your "IDE HDDs were extremely rare" comment, did *anyone* other than Quantum release an IDE drive in that 5.25" form factor? I can't think of any, everything else was 3.5", although some early vendor's drives were the same height as a "half height" 5.25" drive. > > > CDC 94208-51, 62, -75. The -51 is Compaq drive type 17. Wow! I sit corrected! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 15:59:58 2021 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:59:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, 01:11:15 PM CDT, Kevin Anderson wrote: For a time I had quite a few Compaq Deskpro towers that had acquired (for free) from my employer after they updated to a newer HP Compaq model. These Compaq Deskpros were the white-boxed variety with Pentium III the like processors that date to the later part of the 1990s and into the 2000s. They interested me because they were able to work with the flavors of Linux that were becoming plentiful and useful at the time (like Mandrake, etc.) Anyway, the desktops themselves are gone, as well as the PC keyboards and the monitors that went with them, with this paragraph just setting the scene.... But at the same time I also acquired (pulled) from these same computers and their siblings a whole bunch of wired Ethernet network cards, one or two video cards, a whole bunch of the IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop CD drives, and a whole bunch(!) of 10- and 20-GByte IDE/PATA 5.25-inch desktop hard drives. I believe the vintage makes them all PCI cards for the network and video cards. For some reason I must have had it in my head that I would all need these extra cards (and more) to keep these boxes (and other desktops) going into the future when the apocalypse came ! Now I have no need for any of these parts. I don't want to chuck them to a recycler either, but it is tempting just to get the stuff out of the house (as I need to seriously downsize prior to retirement). Is there a market for any of this that is worth pursing, or is this all too generic and plentiful to worry about? Giving shipping and that, I am not sure how much of this I'd care to deal with this through resale (eBay or privately) versus just dropping it all at the electronics recycling shop (which fortunately I have locally). Just starting to sort this out...I've been meaning to send this e-mail for awhile now. Your collective thoughts? I know most of this is too new for most of your interests... Kevin Anderson, Dubuque, Iowa ============= I will correct myself to say (to whomever it was that caught the error) that the hard drives are 3.5-inch, not 5.25-inch. I will see if I can make an explicit list of what I have and post it here sometime soon. Kevin Anderson From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jul 21 16:22:01 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:22:01 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 10:51:30AM -0700, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: [...] >> Regarding your "IDE HDDs were extremely rare" comment, did *anyone* other >> than Quantum release an IDE drive in that 5.25" form factor? I can't >> think of any, everything else was 3.5", although some early vendor's >> drives were the same height as a "half height" 5.25" drive. > CDC 94208-51, 62, -75. The -51 is Compaq drive type 17. We have a winner! I went looking for more details, expecting to find another FrankenDisk made from an MFM drive and MFM-ATA bridge board. But compare the photos in these listings: https://www.recycledgoods.com/cdc-94205-51-43mb-5-25-hh-mfm-hdd/ https://www.recycledgoods.com/cdc-94208-51-43mb-5-25-half-height-ide-hard-drive-as-is/ The drive itself appears to be exactly the same unit. I don't know the purpose of the board on the back but they have more or less the same components in roughly the same positions on both drives so are presumably just different revisions of the same board. The boards on the bottom are however clearly completely different and not just because of the IDE versus MFM connectors. So this is a true 5.25" IDE disk. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 21 16:38:02 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:38:02 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d513d39-c6a0-98e3-4812-6ba348f15494@sydex.com> On 7/21/21 1:59 PM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, 01:11:15 PM CDT, Kevin Anderson > wrote: > > > For a time I had quite a few Compaq Deskpro towers that had acquired > (for free) from my employer after they updated to a newer HP Compaq > model. These Compaq Deskpros were the white-boxed variety with > Pentium III the like processors that date to the later part of the > 1990s and into the 2000s. They interested me because they were able > to work with the flavors of Linux that were becoming plentiful and > useful at the time (like Mandrake, etc.) Anyway, the desktops > themselves are gone, as well as the PC keyboards and the monitors > that went with them, with this paragraph just setting the scene.... There were two flavors of PIII Deskpro "towers". I still occasionally use my model that looks like this: https://www.adverts.ie/desktops-and-monitors/compaq-deskpro-pentium-iii/338079 This is a beast of a system--heavy. The planar has slots for a NIC and a AGP video--both low-profile. The remainder of the slots (PCI and ISA) are on a pull-out tray. I'm running it with a 1.4GHz "slocket". There are other Deskpros that are simple planar-with slots that can be operated either has a minitower or horizontal desktop. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 21 17:49:58 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:49:58 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff Message-ID: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 21 18:01:34 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 19:01:34 -0400 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3d909b51-c170-37ab-e4b1-d002545397e2@alembic.crystel.com> Yeah.... Speaking of which I will be in Seattle at the train station on August 22nd. Was thinking of checking in on the LCM, but if it's still closed I'd be happy to do dinner with anyone who is out there. Anyone want to grab food? C On 7/21/2021 6:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jul 21 18:19:40 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:19:40 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9CB376BD-D8ED-480D-9DC9-F6FD649AC8E6@avanthar.com> On Jul 21, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ That?s heartbreaking, especially as I see stuff in there, that looks to very likely be hardware I?m after (and I?m after almost nothing). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 21 18:24:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:24:45 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <3d909b51-c170-37ab-e4b1-d002545397e2@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> <3d909b51-c170-37ab-e4b1-d002545397e2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <189c64eb-3f46-a523-c1ca-d4ac776205a8@sydex.com> On 7/21/21 4:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Yeah.... > > Speaking of which I will be in Seattle at the train station on August > 22nd. Was thinking of checking in on the LCM, but if it's still closed > I'd be happy to do dinner with anyone who is out there. > > Anyone want to grab food? Is that the operation run by John Keys? I donated a few things to that one. --Chuck From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 18:32:42 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 19:32:42 -0400 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <9CB376BD-D8ED-480D-9DC9-F6FD649AC8E6@avanthar.com> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> <9CB376BD-D8ED-480D-9DC9-F6FD649AC8E6@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <949a8f57-555b-852d-4adb-68a3eec23a19@comcast.net> On 7/21/2021 7:19 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Jul 21, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ > That?s heartbreaking, especially as I see stuff in there, that looks to very likely be hardware I?m after (and I?m after almost nothing). > > Zane > > > I agree, there are things that I would buy.? However, it is 1,500 miles from me and would require a drive through the South, in the Summer.? Ugh. Doug From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 21 19:09:03 2021 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:09:03 -0400 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Nice selection of dirty and yellowed computers in unknown condition. -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 6:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 21 19:55:55 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:55:55 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <9e8a3640-4db7-8bd1-4b99-54b51a7f8037@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <53567031-bf68-ed66-f3a3-e88005efe52d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/21/21 10:41 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > BTW, you don't need an AUI port to connect to Thicknet. ... All that > works fine ... since the impedance is 50 ohms in either case. Agreed. I actually /want/ the 10Base5 / Thicknet. I have a segment, taps w/ transceivers, and AUI cables. I just needed the NICs with AUI ports. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From leec2124 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 20:12:31 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:12:31 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al or other - any idea what happened to the SDS relics and detris HCM picked up after the donation to CHM? Lee On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:50 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 21:41:14 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 10:41:14 +0800 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: "Houston Computer Museum" ... I wouldn't call this a "museum". The condition of the stuff is fitting for a garbage tip. It is a disgrace. On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 6:50 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ > > From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jul 21 21:47:56 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:47:56 -0600 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 8:41 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > "Houston Computer Museum" ... I wouldn't call this a "museum". The > condition of the stuff is fitting for a garbage tip. It is a disgrace. > Isn't this the place in Texas that flooded last year? Warner > On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 6:50 AM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ > > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 21 21:52:38 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 19:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh via cctalk at "Jul 21, 21 08:47:56 pm" Message-ID: <202107220252.16M2qcCL11272300@floodgap.com> > > "Houston Computer Museum" ... I wouldn't call this a "museum". The > > condition of the stuff is fitting for a garbage tip. It is a disgrace. > > Isn't this the place in Texas that flooded last year? Houston and floods ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------------------ From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jul 21 22:07:36 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 03:07:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Wold_cost_$$$$_to_dispose_of_a_those_monitors!!!!___If_there_is?= =?UTF-8?Q?_an_hp_3000._Series_2__or_3_we_?= =?UTF-8?Q?would__buy_it._Contact_=C3=A8d_sharpe?= In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1831412280.42636.1626923256105@mail.yahoo.com> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:48 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 8:41 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > "Houston Computer Museum" ... I wouldn't call this a "museum". The > condition of the stuff is fitting for a garbage tip. It is a disgrace. > Isn't this the place in Texas that flooded last year? Warner > On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 6:50 AM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ > > > > > From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jul 21 22:07:36 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 03:07:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Wold_cost_$$$$_to_dispose_of_a_those_monitors!!!!___If_there_is?= =?UTF-8?Q?_an_hp_3000._Series_2__or_3_we_?= =?UTF-8?Q?would__buy_it._Contact_=C3=A8d_sharpe?= In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1831412280.42636.1626923256105@mail.yahoo.com> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:48 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 8:41 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > "Houston Computer Museum" ... I wouldn't call this a "museum". The > condition of the stuff is fitting for a garbage tip. It is a disgrace. > Isn't this the place in Texas that flooded last year? Warner > On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 6:50 AM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/2103793056560583/permalink/3118441161762429/ > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 23:06:02 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 00:06:02 -0400 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <202107220252.16M2qcCL11272300@floodgap.com> References: <202107220252.16M2qcCL11272300@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 10:52 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > > "Houston Computer Museum" ... I wouldn't call this a "museum". The > > > condition of the stuff is fitting for a garbage tip. It is a disgrace. > > > > Isn't this the place in Texas that flooded last year? > > Houston and floods ... I got stranded in Houston for two days on my last trip there. Flooding around the airport caused a multi-day disruption in flights. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 16:42:31 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:42:31 -0500 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <02b2284d-089c-8e72-b79f-7f4fdf18d2e4@gmail.com> On 7/21/21 12:51 PM, r.stricklin via cctech wrote: > > >> Regarding your "IDE HDDs were extremely rare" comment, did *anyone* >> other than Quantum release an IDE drive in that 5.25" form factor? I >> can't think of any, everything else was 3.5", although some early >> vendor's drives were the same height as a "half height" 5.25" drive. >> > > CDC 94208-51, 62, -75. The -51 is Compaq drive type 17. Interesting! Were they built as IDE drives from the ground up, or were they ST506/412 types with an additional board grafted on doing the interface conversion? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 21 18:08:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:08:45 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <02b2284d-089c-8e72-b79f-7f4fdf18d2e4@gmail.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> <02b2284d-089c-8e72-b79f-7f4fdf18d2e4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <155e074d-f6c0-7ee2-006d-3dd781567753@sydex.com> On 7/21/21 2:42 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: > On 7/21/21 12:51 PM, r.stricklin via cctech wrote: >> >> >>> Regarding your "IDE HDDs were extremely rare" comment, did *anyone* >>> other than Quantum release an IDE drive in that 5.25" form factor? I >>> can't think of any, everything else was 3.5", although some early >>> vendor's drives were the same height as a "half height" 5.25" drive. >>> >> >> CDC 94208-51, 62, -75. The -51 is Compaq drive type 17. > > Interesting! Were they built as IDE drives from the ground up, or were they > ST506/412 types with an additional board grafted on doing the interface > conversion? Yes, they were all part of the CDC Wren series--ST506, ESDI, IDE (although referred to as ATA in the literature) and SCSI. I'm still using a SCSI 330MB WREN in one of my boxes. --Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Wed Jul 21 18:09:40 2021 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:09:40 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <02b2284d-089c-8e72-b79f-7f4fdf18d2e4@gmail.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> <4A7C6BE6-03D8-4849-BB5B-607CAC0E71F3@typewritten.org> <02b2284d-089c-8e72-b79f-7f4fdf18d2e4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97178C1C-C50A-46E8-B999-E9AB0DF173AC@typewritten.org> > On Jul 21, 2021, at 2:42 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote: > > On 7/21/21 12:51 PM, r.stricklin via cctech wrote: >> CDC 94208-51, 62, -75. The -51 is Compaq drive type 17. > > Interesting! Were they built as IDE drives from the ground up, or were they > ST506/412 types with an additional board grafted on doing the interface > conversion? Compaq did a few that way (e.g. for the Portable II) but the CDCs are all ATA. ok bear. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jul 22 01:24:59 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:24:59 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <85b219d6-fb0a-6dcf-c69f-a3295f7a24e4@jwsss.com> I stored the tape drives and printers from the SDS pile.? I asked when the whole fiasco first surfaced and someone connected to the landlord got into the mess.? They said there was no media.? I never saw any in Kansas City which was to have been delivered as part of me storing that stuff for him.? He took off with the mainframe boxes, processors and maybe disks with a single trip, and only returned on threat of me assuming ownership of the pile and took it. None of the SDS to any report or query I made ever showed up.? Maybe metal scrapped somewhere else. All the stuff that is shown in the FB photos was a mess of newer smaller equipment in a pile which looked like a bomb had gone off. The "nice" pile seen in the FB post is way thinned out.? Looks like someone was going to try to sell it off retail and those plans have changed. Chuck, sad you donated anything to him. thanks Jim On 7/21/2021 6:12 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > Al or other - any idea what happened to the SDS relics and detris HCM > picked up after the donation to CHM? > > Lee From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 10:12:15 2021 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:12:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> In response to Chuck Guzis' mentioning that there was more than one design of what was labeled a Compaq "Deskpro" during the time of PIII processors: the series of desktops that I used to have,, and from where the extra boards and drives I have were all pulled, collectively would be called the Deskpro EN series. Here is sample picture found on the web https://www.visualalchemy.tv/images/products/671caaf2be654938bd29fd137ed029c4.jpg Not all actually desktops I dealt with said "EN" on the nameplate, as I believe there was a brief period early on of Compaq switching over to the new case design before the EN series was completely defined, but the basic case design was all the same with option for tower or on-the-side use. This may better date the likely styles of boards and drives I have. I don't recall any of the original computers at work were of the small form factor version in the same series, although I'd expect the parts involved would have still been similar if they had been. My list of parts is still forthcoming. I will see if I can work on it this Saturday. There may be a couple of other items that I will uncover (such as one or two actual earlier 5.25-in hard drives and possibly an ISA card or two from earlier desktops I also used to have), which I will uncover and list as I start digging. And if folks start showing interest in particular boards or drives, I might be able to do some limited testing if someone is indeed interested in a particular item, as I still have a slightly newer HP Compaq d530 desktop (running Linux) that I could pop a card or a CD drive into, or one of those external USB-driven devices that connect up to a variety of PATA and SATA hard drive types and do a simple format with. But if I do have an old ISA card or 5.25-inch drive, those you would have to take untested, as I have no means left to deal with those. For that matter, I know I also have three different models of pulled 5.25 inch floppy drives still in the house that are untested and any one interested in those would have to take as-is/untested; I will list those in my documenting as well. But as Grant Taylor has correctly interpreted, I am really not that interested in becoming a resale agent in trying to sell every part, nor have the packing materials and payment receipt options to do more than a few sales, nor really desire to invest in all that in order to get maximum value. It is simply the case that I'd like to get these items out of my house, and if someone(s) can benefit in getting items that might have some future value or use, I'd rather not just junk the lot, whether to the rubbish bin or an electronics recycler, if I can help it. (But at the same time, by my asking in the first place, maybe I am simply looking for permission to in fact junk the lot and do so with a clear conscious.) Kevin Anderson, Dubuque, Iowa, USA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 22 10:55:34 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 08:55:34 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3bdf925c-fb71-b7d0-42a0-1f6933769a4a@sydex.com> On 7/22/21 8:12 AM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > In response to Chuck Guzis' mentioning that there was more than one design of what was labeled a Compaq "Deskpro" during the time of PIII processors: the series of desktops that I used to have,, and from where the extra boards and drives I have were all pulled, collectively would be called the Deskpro EN series. Here is sample picture found on the web > https://www.visualalchemy.tv/images/products/671caaf2be654938bd29fd137ed029c4.jpg > > Not all actually desktops I dealt with said "EN" on the nameplate, as I believe there was a brief period early on of Compaq switching over to the new case design before the EN series was completely defined, but the basic case design was all the same with option for tower or on-the-side use. This may better date the likely styles of boards and drives I have. I don't recall any of the original computers at work were of the small form factor version in the same series, although I'd expect the parts involved would have still been similar if they had been. I checked the label on my box. On the serial number sticker, it says "DPENM P600/128/100". Another label says "ENP600". On the rear, it says Series PD1006. Has the usual Windows 2000 and Intel inside stickers. There's a 500 MHz one at RG: https://www.recycledgoods.com/compaq-dpenm-p500-deskpro-en-series-pd1006-tower/ So definitely Compaq EN series, just not the one folks are used to seeing. FWIW, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 22 11:27:30 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 09:27:30 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <85b219d6-fb0a-6dcf-c69f-a3295f7a24e4@jwsss.com> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> <85b219d6-fb0a-6dcf-c69f-a3295f7a24e4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Here are the only pictures I could find when the keyboard vultures descended two years ago https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=20593 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 22 16:04:48 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:04:48 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4fd72eb3-ec37-e245-5d68-1ac4ddaa7205@bitsavers.org> On 7/21/21 6:12 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: > Al or other - any idea what happened to the SDS relics and detris HCM picked up after the donation to CHM? > I was just in contact with the person who actually did the cleanout of the museum warehouse (not the current seller) "As I cleared the warehouse, I found bits and pieces of the 910 strewn across the building in no specific order (backplanes, parts of tape drives, boards, etc). I believe that the SDS system was destroyed and possibly scrapped, except for the boards, which were all placed in boxes." So he scrapped it. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 22 16:30:30 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:30:30 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <4fd72eb3-ec37-e245-5d68-1ac4ddaa7205@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> <4fd72eb3-ec37-e245-5d68-1ac4ddaa7205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55ddf72f-e105-53d0-0dc2-9c576126c96b@bitsavers.org> On 7/22/21 2:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 7/21/21 6:12 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: >> Al or other - any idea what happened to the SDS relics and detris HCM picked up after the donation to CHM? >> > > I was just in contact with the person who actually did the cleanout of the museum warehouse (not the current seller) > > "As I cleared the warehouse, I found bits and pieces of the 910 strewn across the building in no specific order (backplanes, parts of tape > drives, boards, etc). I believe that the SDS system was destroyed and possibly scrapped, except for the boards, which were all placed in > boxes." > > So he scrapped it. > here are the last known pictures of the cabinets, from Oct, 2010 when they were picked up from Jim https://www.flickr.com/photos/houcompmuseum/ i'm amazed the link still works last message from him is here from alt.folklore.computers which I posted here in 2019 https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/marketplace/vintage-computer-items-for-sale-or-trade/72862-vintage-computer-warehouse-liquidation/page3#post885945 From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 22 17:42:35 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:42:35 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <55ddf72f-e105-53d0-0dc2-9c576126c96b@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> <4fd72eb3-ec37-e245-5d68-1ac4ddaa7205@bitsavers.org> <55ddf72f-e105-53d0-0dc2-9c576126c96b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <87C12820-3BB8-4B44-8CA3-9FAAAE372879@avanthar.com> > On Jul 22, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > here are the last known pictures of the cabinets, from Oct, 2010 when they were picked up from Jim > https://www.flickr.com/photos/houcompmuseum/ > > i'm amazed the link still works Since that account only has 19 photo?s, they?ll probably last ?forever?. As far as I know, flickr only purges photo?s from free accounts when they go over a certain number (it used to be 200), and even then they may expect you to purge them. Zane From chris at groessler.org Thu Jul 22 18:24:58 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 01:24:58 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/22/21 5:12 PM, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > In response to Chuck Guzis' mentioning that there was more than one design of what was labeled a Compaq "Deskpro" during the time of PIII processors: the series of desktops that I used to have,, and from where the extra boards and drives I have were all pulled, collectively would be called the Deskpro EN series. Here is sample picture found on the web > https://www.visualalchemy.tv/images/products/671caaf2be654938bd29fd137ed029c4.jpg > > Not all actually desktops I dealt with said "EN" on the nameplate, as I believe there was a brief period early on of Compaq switching over to the new case design before the EN series was completely defined, but the basic case design was all the same with option for tower or on-the-side use. This may better date the likely styles of boards and drives I have. I don't recall any of the original computers at work were of the small form factor version in the same series, although I'd expect the parts involved would have still been similar if they had been. > > My list of parts is still forthcoming. I will see if I can work on it this Saturday. There may be a couple of other items that I will uncover (such as one or two actual earlier 5.25-in hard drives and possibly an ISA card or two from earlier desktops I also used to have), which I will uncover and list as I start digging. And if folks start showing interest in particular boards or drives, My boss back in 90/91 or so bought a Compaq 386SX desktop. The 386SX was at the low end back then already, but the keyboard which came with it was top-notch! Forget early IBM PC keyboards. This Compaq keyboard had the best feel ever when typing! Unfortunately I never was able to find this keyboard again, and my boss wouldn't give it to me when he dumped the 386SX :-( He kept the keyboard. regards, chris From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 22 18:56:48 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 16:56:48 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/22/21 4:24 PM, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > My boss back in 90/91 or so bought a Compaq 386SX desktop. The 386SX was > at the low end back then already, but the keyboard which came with it > was top-notch! > > Forget early IBM PC keyboards. This Compaq keyboard had the best feel > ever when typing! > > Unfortunately I never was able to find this keyboard again, and my boss > wouldn't give it to me when he dumped the 386SX :-( > He kept the keyboard. The keyboard that came with my Deskpro PIII is pure garbage--the keycaps don't even come off, as far as I can tell. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 22 20:09:21 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 21:09:21 -0400 Subject: VA Vista Message-ID: Only semi Classic as the subject has been around for a long time. I saw recently that the VA is moving to a new EHR System (not very successfully, so far). Does this mean that VA Vista and MUMPS are finally going to be scrapped? Anybody else hear anything? bill From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Jul 23 05:57:14 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 10:57:14 +0000 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20210723105714.GA26600@lonesome.com> What a complete fiasco. How sad. mcl From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 06:35:27 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:35:27 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 01:25, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > > My boss back in 90/91 or so bought a Compaq 386SX desktop. The 386SX was > at the low end back then already, but the keyboard which came with it > was top-notch! > > Forget early IBM PC keyboards. This Compaq keyboard had the best feel > ever when typing! > > Unfortunately I never was able to find this keyboard again, and my boss > wouldn't give it to me when he dumped the 386SX :-( > He kept the keyboard. I both agree and disagree. I never used an original Compaq Portable but I started using Compaqs back in the 8086 and 80286 era. I remember when a Compaq 386 was I think the first 386 I ever worked on. (I killed it. >_< Left it running COMPSURF with the lid off, and the bare CPU -- no heatsink -- fried. No airflow.) I never used a Compaq keyboard I really liked. Your post made me cast my mind back and the oldest ones I remember were unusually soft and quiet for the time. I like loud and clicky. :-) But I can certainly see why someone might like them -- soft and quiet became the dominant style. But I now have a reputation as a keyboard collector and enthusiast, and I am not really -- I just kept some of the ones I liked from when people were throwing them away... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From chris at groessler.org Fri Jul 23 07:54:55 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 14:54:55 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> On 7/23/21 1:35 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I remember when a Compaq 386 was I > think the first 386 I ever worked on. I think Compaq was the first company to offer a 386 PC back then (before IBM). I remember, when I worked as a student at MBB around 1988, that we visited another department (just next door) to see the Compaq 386 they had in action. regards, chris From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 08:24:54 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:24:54 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 14:55, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > > I think Compaq was the first company to offer a 386 PC back then (before > IBM). > > I remember, when I worked as a student at MBB around 1988, that we > visited another department (just next door) to see the Compaq 386 they > had in action. Exactly. We already had a demo PS/2 Model 70, a screaming 25MHz 80386DX _with motherboard cache_. But it cost over ?10,000 in 1988 and I don't remember us ever selling one. (My Acorn Archimedes ? 8MHz ARM2 ? ran rings around it, which delighted me. IIRC interpreted BBC BASIC V on RISC OS was substantially faster than BASIC compiled with MS QuickBASIC 3 on PC DOS.) I think the Compaq was a Deskpro, and I was installing Netware 3 on it. From floppies. Lots and lots of floppies. I had to mess around with IRQ and DMA settings on its Ethernet and SCSI cards, so I had the lid off... and left it off when I went to lunch. Oops... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 23 09:50:35 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 07:50:35 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> Message-ID: <41a8bd45-833e-7c47-af7c-dc0fa2a0310a@bitsavers.org> On 7/23/21 6:24 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I think the Compaq was a Deskpro It was. I remember a visit to an Apple exec's office who had one on his desk just after it came out and his concern wrt competition for the Mac II. He would end up going to work for Dell https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-harslem-077b982/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 23 11:48:36 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:48:36 +0100 Subject: Sourcing Capacitors for my H7140 PSU Message-ID: <006201d77fe2$953b8000$bfb28000$@ntlworld.com> I gave up trying to repair this PSU myself and I have got someone to do it professionally. It seems they have it working well but think that two capacitors should still be replaced. I think these are the two big "Coke Can" sized filter capacitors. The trouble is they seem to be unable to find any. The spec for them is 4500uf 200v DxH 76mm x 145mm Qty. 2. Anyone know where to find such monsters? In the UK ideally. I have looked on Farnell, Digikey and Mouser. It all seems to be special order, minimum quantity, long lead time etc. Thanks Rob From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 23 11:56:34 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 10:56:34 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> Message-ID: <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/23/21 7:24 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Netware 3 on it. From floppies. Lots and lots of floppies. If memory serves, that mass of floppies was dwarfed by Windows 95, particularly later versions. Aside: I don't think I've ever seen Windows 98 on floppies. I think I've only seen CD-ROM. Though I expect that there is a way, likely from Microsoft, to create the floppies. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 23 11:59:22 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:59:22 -0400 Subject: Sourcing Capacitors for my H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <006201d77fe2$953b8000$bfb28000$@ntlworld.com> References: <006201d77fe2$953b8000$bfb28000$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <986a6f4b-187a-aefb-4c54-cdf512bbcb1f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-07-23 12:48 p.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I gave up trying to repair this PSU myself and I have got someone to do it > professionally. It seems they have it working well but think that two > capacitors should still be replaced. I think these are the two big "Coke > Can" sized filter capacitors. The trouble is they seem to be unable to find > any. The spec for them is 4500uf 200v DxH 76mm x 145mm Qty. 2. > > > > Anyone know where to find such monsters? In the UK ideally. I have looked on > Farnell, Digikey and Mouser. It all seems to be special order, minimum > quantity, long lead time etc. > Any reason you can't use the results of this search at Digikey? https://www.digikey.ca/short/v73h57hh Cheapest is CAD $40.33 and generally screw mount. I've filtered to three reputable brands. --Toby > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 12:23:52 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 19:23:52 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 18:56, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > If memory serves, that mass of floppies was dwarfed by Windows 95, > particularly later versions. Win95: 13 disks. Win98: 38 disks. Netware 3.1: can't remember... lots: http://www.os2museum.com/wp/diskette-puzzle/ Ha! Trying to google, I found a piece I wrote myself! https://www.theregister.com/Print/2013/07/16/netware_4_anniversary/ I think it was circa 20-25 disks. I remember I had to copy them before installation, in case. And at that time, the DOS 3.3 DISKCOPY command didn't swap to disk or XMS/EMS, and with 640 kB of RAM, copying a 1.4 MB floppy could take 3-4 reads and as many writes. It took me over an entire working day to duplicate all the disks, IIRC. > Aside: I don't think I've ever seen Windows 98 on floppies. I think > I've only seen CD-ROM. Though I expect that there is a way, likely from > Microsoft, to create the floppies. There was, and I think in some markets -- Japan maybe? possibly because of non-adherence to CD standards? -- it was sold on floppies. I also have unpleasant memories of trying to install Slackware from floppies, because it couldn't see my SCSI card, and the only CD-ROM I had was SCSI. The command switches for Linux kernel modules weren't standardised and I couldn't find out how to tell Linux about my cheap & nasty built-in AHA1520 SCSI controller's IRQ and DMA settings. I knew what they were, but I didn't know the syntax to tell the module... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 12:38:28 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:38:28 -0500 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/21/21 7:09 PM, Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: > Nice selection of dirty and yellowed? computers in unknown condition. Dirt can be removed, things can typically be repaired if needed, and not all of us expect our systems to be the exact shade of whatever that they were when they were built decades ago. :-) Sadly it's getting on for 1,500 miles away from me. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 23 13:16:31 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 19:16:31 +0100 Subject: Sourcing Capacitors for my H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <986a6f4b-187a-aefb-4c54-cdf512bbcb1f@telegraphics.com.au> References: <006201d77fe2$953b8000$bfb28000$@ntlworld.com> <986a6f4b-187a-aefb-4c54-cdf512bbcb1f@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <007d01d77fee$dd906210$98b12630$@ntlworld.com> I was looking at UK sites, but that is definitely an option, thanks. > -----Original Message----- > From: Toby Thain > Sent: 23 July 2021 17:59 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Sourcing Capacitors for my H7140 PSU > > On 2021-07-23 12:48 p.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I gave up trying to repair this PSU myself and I have got someone to > > do it professionally. It seems they have it working well but think > > that two capacitors should still be replaced. I think these are the > > two big "Coke Can" sized filter capacitors. The trouble is they seem > > to be unable to find any. The spec for them is 4500uf 200v DxH 76mm x > 145mm Qty. 2. > > > > > > > > Anyone know where to find such monsters? In the UK ideally. I have > > looked on Farnell, Digikey and Mouser. It all seems to be special > > order, minimum quantity, long lead time etc. > > > > Any reason you can't use the results of this search at Digikey? > > https://www.digikey.ca/short/v73h57hh > > Cheapest is CAD $40.33 and generally screw mount. I've filtered to three > reputable brands. > > --Toby > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 23 13:57:54 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:57:54 -0700 Subject: LCM Accounts? Message-ID: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> Is it still possible to get accounts on the LCM systems? I wanted to get a login on the VAX 7000, but can?t figure out where to request an account. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 23 14:01:38 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:01:38 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 10:38 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Sadly it's getting on for 1,500 miles away from me. just let this stuff be ecycled already like a friend said, we are all just delay lines for the dump From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 23 14:26:02 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 14:26:02 -0500 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20210723194046.864454E804@mx2.ezwind.net> At 02:01 PM 7/23/2021, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >like a friend said, we are all just delay lines for the dump How about "temporary caretakers who will pass these things along to someone else who also cares?" - John From lee.gleason at comcast.net Fri Jul 23 14:43:09 2021 From: lee.gleason at comcast.net (Lee Gleason) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 14:43:09 -0500 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff Message-ID: "Nice selection of dirty and yellowed computers in unknown condition." I just took a run out to the warehouse in question, figuring the owner would be there today cleaning up. The quote above sums up the state of things. There were some miscellaneous DEC terminals, a few MicroVAXes, and some other assorted DEC stuff - but it was all a trifle ...funky. That alone might not have been a sales stopper for me (all of my collection is not pristine), but the prices were a bit higher than I was prepared to pay for that condition and these circumstances. EG $125.00 for a VT220 w/o keyboard, and $90.00 for VT240 base units. I left empty handed. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 23 14:48:43 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:48:43 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/23/21 12:43 PM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > the prices were a bit higher > than I was prepared to pay the guy is a flipper, let him scrap the stuff before giving him a dime From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 23 14:56:38 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:56:38 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88a000a1-56a9-5e26-57fe-96ed52e21651@bitsavers.org> On 7/23/21 12:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 7/23/21 12:43 PM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: >> the prices were a bit higher than I was prepared to pay > > the guy is a flipper, let him scrap the stuff before giving him a dime > If you haven't figured this out already I am NOT happy with him using the word "MUSEUM" in any of this and the vibe it is generating that museums don't take care of artifacts. From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 23 15:11:26 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:11:26 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4872AFC5-353F-4758-9E76-C6A58C9ACEC4@avanthar.com> On Jul 23, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > > "Nice selection of dirty and yellowed computers in unknown condition." > > I just took a run out to the warehouse in question, figuring the owner would be there today cleaning up. The quote above sums up the state of things. There were some miscellaneous DEC terminals, a few MicroVAXes, and some other assorted DEC stuff - but it was all a trifle ...funky. That alone might not have been a sales stopper for me (all of my collection is not pristine), but the prices were a bit higher than I was prepared to pay for that condition and these circumstances. EG $125.00 for a VT220 w/o keyboard, and $90.00 for VT240 base units. I left empty handed. In that condition, those prices are crazy. I could care less about the lack of keyboards, but then I?m blessed when it comes to LK201?s and LK401?s. Thank you for the report, I feel better now, about my inability to get in on this. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 23 15:11:41 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Some further questions BELOW to complete the distribution media database: >> If memory serves, that mass of floppies was dwarfed by Windows 95, >> particularly later versions. On Fri, 23 Jul 2021, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Win95: 13 disks. > Win98: 38 disks. > Netware 3.1: can't remember... lots: > http://www.os2museum.com/wp/diskette-puzzle/ > Ha! Trying to google, I found a piece I wrote myself! > https://www.theregister.com/Print/2013/07/16/netware_4_anniversary/ > I think it was circa 20-25 disks. I remember I had to copy them before > installation, in case. And at that time, the DOS 3.3 DISKCOPY command > didn't swap to disk or XMS/EMS, and with 640 kB of RAM, copying a 1.4 > MB floppy could take 3-4 reads and as many writes. > > It took me over an entire working day to duplicate all the disks, IIRC. 1) Which ones were available on 5.25"? (and how many disks?) A) "360K"? B) "1.2M"? C) "1.4M"? D) Microsoft non-standard crammed 3.5" HD? (1.7M?) First CD-ROM install media that I got was Windows 3.00, but it was an inclusion on a "tools" collection CD-ROM (not quite a shovel-ware). Then a Multi-Language 3.00 CD-ROM from Microsoft (for international market) The Chinese lady that I shared an office with was thrilled, because she was trying to teach herself Spanish, and that, along with the McCracken FORTRAN in Spanish were here preferred method. 3.10 Windows CD-ROM from Microsoft When did MS-DOS come on CD-ROM? Or did it? Microsoft C compiler Version 5.00 on CD-ROM From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 15:13:24 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 16:13:24 -0400 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 2:57 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Is it still possible to get accounts on the LCM systems? I wanted to get a login on the VAX 7000, but can?t figure out where to request an account. > > Zane > > What would you use it for if everything is shut down? bill From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 16:10:21 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 16:10:21 -0500 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: References: <2d714e32-daca-8872-4907-cbfff013a773@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 2:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 7/23/21 10:38 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > >> Sadly it's getting on for 1,500 miles away from me. > > just let this stuff be ecycled already I could actually use a few more CRTs. Well, not "use personally" - I've got enough to just grab a suitable one when I want to fire a system up - but I do keep thinking that if I ever thin out some of my duplicate machines, it would be nice to offer the future owner the option of a display to go with it. > like a friend said, we are all just delay lines for the dump Ha! That, I like. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 23 16:20:10 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 14:20:10 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 10:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 18:56, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> >> If memory serves, that mass of floppies was dwarfed by Windows 95, >> particularly later versions. > > Win95: 13 disks. > > Win98: 38 disks. Some of the early Xenix distros were about as massive, when you included development tools. And OS?2 on floppy when accompanied by the relevant CSDs could also run into many disks. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jul 23 16:44:26 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:44:26 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 3:20 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/23/21 10:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 18:56, Grant Taylor via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> If memory serves, that mass of floppies was dwarfed by Windows 95, > >> particularly later versions. > > > > Win95: 13 disks. > > > > Win98: 38 disks. > > Some of the early Xenix distros were about as massive, when you included > development tools. And OS?2 on floppy when accompanied by the relevant > CSDs could also run into many disks. > Venix/86R for the Rainbow shipped on 8 RX50 floppies.... BSW additions were another 6 floppies, though that replaced about 2 floppies worth of binaries. Warner > From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 23 16:56:31 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 14:56:31 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <88a000a1-56a9-5e26-57fe-96ed52e21651@bitsavers.org> References: <88a000a1-56a9-5e26-57fe-96ed52e21651@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7FDD860E-60C1-4550-8585-08B090155D73@avanthar.com> On Jul 23, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/23/21 12:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/23/21 12:43 PM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: >>> the prices were a bit higher than I was prepared to pay >> the guy is a flipper, let him scrap the stuff before giving him a dime > > If you haven't figured this out already I am NOT happy with him using the > word "MUSEUM" in any of this and the vibe it is generating that museums > don't take care of artifacts. Thanks for that explanation Al, it helps to understand where you?re coming from, and you bring up an excellent point. Personally when I see ?Museum? in this context, I don?t think of this as a museum not taking care of the artifacts, I look at this from the standpoint of the founder not taking the necessary steps when setting the Museum up to ensure its preservation after his death (or when the founder runs out of money). Basically I think we each have our life experiences colouring our views in this matter. At least the effort I was involved with was able to dispose of its assets to other non-profits. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 23 16:58:16 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 14:58:16 -0700 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/23/21 2:57 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Is it still possible to get accounts on the LCM systems? I wanted to get a login on the VAX 7000, but can?t figure out where to request an account. >> Zane > > What would you use it for if everything is shut down? > > bill The systems aren?t shutdown, I was able to connect to it, I just can?t log on. I never bothered to get accounts on any of the systems. Zane From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 18:00:08 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 16:00:08 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <7FDD860E-60C1-4550-8585-08B090155D73@avanthar.com> References: <88a000a1-56a9-5e26-57fe-96ed52e21651@bitsavers.org> <7FDD860E-60C1-4550-8585-08B090155D73@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <6982590a-9bb4-0baa-198a-2b787e3920b7@gmail.com> On 7/23/2021 2:56 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Personally when I see ?Museum? in this context, I don?t think of this as a museum not taking care of the artifacts, I look at this from the standpoint of the founder not taking the necessary steps when setting the Museum up to ensure its preservation after his death (or when the founder runs out of money). I thought there was a disaster (flood) that had basically trashed the place. Did I get that wrong? (I could understand a "failure in planning" followed by "total liquidation of assets" in such a scenario.) Vince From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 23 18:29:44 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:29:44 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 11:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Win95: 13 disks. That's fewer than I remember. Though, Windows 3.1 was 6 disks and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was 8 disks. That was on top of MS-DOS 6.22 which was 3 disks. For a total of 9 or 11. So, 13 isn't that big of a jump. > Win98: 38 disks. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. > Netware 3.1: can't remember... lots: I have 29 disk images in my collection for NetWare 3.11. > http://www.os2museum.com/wp/diskette-puzzle/ Ya. I remember NetWare being a puzzle of disks. > Ha! Trying to google, I found a piece I wrote myself! > https://www.theregister.com/Print/2013/07/16/netware_4_anniversary/ $ReadingList++ > I think it was circa 20-25 disks. I remember I had to copy them before > installation, in case. And at that time, the DOS 3.3 DISKCOPY command > didn't swap to disk or XMS/EMS, and with 640 kB of RAM, copying a 1.4 > MB floppy could take 3-4 reads and as many writes. Oh good $DEITY! I would have borrowed a 2nd floppy drive from another system, done the copy, and returned the floppy drive. It would probably have been faster. > It took me over an entire working day to duplicate all the disks, IIRC. Ya. I bet. > There was, and I think in some markets -- Japan maybe? possibly > because of non-adherence to CD standards? -- it was sold on floppies. > I also have unpleasant memories of trying to install Slackware from > floppies, because it couldn't see my SCSI card, and the only CD-ROM I > had was SCSI. The command switches for Linux kernel modules weren't > standardised and I couldn't find out how to tell Linux about my cheap > & nasty built-in AHA1520 SCSI controller's IRQ and DMA settings. I > knew what they were, but I didn't know the syntax to tell the > module... Ya. Early Linux, which Slackware in the '90s definitely qualifies as, often had a chicken and egg problem. You could create a new boot disk and / or modules for hardware /if/ /only/ you had a functional Linux system to do it from. Bootstraping Linux in the '90s was ... touchy. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 23 18:35:24 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:35:24 -0600 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 2:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Some further questions BELOW to complete the distribution media database: }:-) > 1) Which ones were available on 5.25"?? (and how many disks?) > ????A) "360K"? > ????B) "1.2M"? > ????C) "1.4M"? > ????D) Microsoft non-standard crammed 3.5" HD? (1.7M?) Ugh ... I don't know and I don't have a good way to differentiate my disk images. > First CD-ROM install media that I got was Windows 3.00, but it was an > inclusion on a "tools" collection CD-ROM (not quite a shovel-ware). > Then a Multi-Language 3.00 CD-ROM from Microsoft (for international > market) I would like to know more about, or better find a copy, of such a CD-ROM. I do wish that I could do an install of MS-DOS 6.22, CD-ROM driver + MSCDExec, DOSidle, and Windows 3.x on a CD-ROM for simplifying installations in virtual machines. I've not yet figured out how to put all of the install files for MS-DOS 6.22 in one directory, boot and do the install. My minimal passes at doing so don't work as well as I want or get stuck wanting to change the disk based on the disk label. > The Chinese lady that I shared an office with was thrilled, because > she was trying to teach herself Spanish, and that, along with the > McCracken FORTRAN in Spanish were here preferred method. ~chuckle~ > 3.10 Windows CD-ROM from Microsoft Interesting. > When did MS-DOS come on CD-ROM?? Or did it? Does MS-DOS 7.x; read Windows 95 / 98; count? ;-) I don't know if any of the other Microsoft products, likely NT Server, included MS-DOS installation files buried on the CD-ROM or not. There are often interesting things if you know where to find them. > Microsoft C compiler Version 5.00 on CD-ROM #unknown -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 23 18:37:54 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:37:54 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <639fcc32-5ebc-4662-a02c-dc267c849297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/23/21 3:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Some of the early Xenix distros were about as massive, when you > included development tools. And OS?2 on floppy when accompanied by > the relevant CSDs could also run into many disks. My AIX/PS2 disk image collection clocks in at 94 disk images / 130 MB. (So I'm assuming 1.44 MB disks.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 19:17:11 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 20:17:11 -0400 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 5:58 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 7/23/21 2:57 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> Is it still possible to get accounts on the LCM systems? I wanted to get a login on the VAX 7000, but can?t figure out where to request an account. >>> Zane >> >> What would you use it for if everything is shut down? >> >> bill > > The systems aren?t shutdown, I was able to connect to it, I just can?t log on. I never bothered to get accounts on any of the systems. > > Zane > > > > Interesting. The last time I tried to get to the LCM MineCraft Server it wasn't there and when I asked (here or somewhere similar, don't remember) I was told they had shut everything down when they laid off all their people. bill From organlists1 at sonic.net Fri Jul 23 19:41:02 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:41:02 -0700 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Seems it's back up and running.....? https://mc.livingcomputers.org/ Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 5:17 PM To: Zane Healy ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LCM Accounts? On 7/23/21 5:58 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 7/23/21 2:57 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> Is it still possible to get accounts on the LCM systems? I wanted to get a login on the VAX 7000, but can?t figure out where to request an account. >>> Zane >> >> What would you use it for if everything is shut down? >> >> bill > > The systems aren?t shutdown, I was able to connect to it, I just can?t log on. I never bothered to get accounts on any of the systems. > > Zane > > > > Interesting. The last time I tried to get to the LCM MineCraft Server it wasn't there and when I asked (here or somewhere similar, don't remember) I was told they had shut everything down when they laid off all their people. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 23 19:43:43 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> Some further questions BELOW to complete the distribution media database: > > }:-) > >> 1) Which ones were available on 5.25"??? (and how many disks?) >> ????????A) "360K"? >> ????????B) "1.2M"? >> ????????C) "1.4M"? >> ????????D) Microsoft non-standard crammed 3.5" HD? (1.7M?) > On Fri, 23 Jul 2021, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Ugh ... I don't know and I don't have a good way to differentiate my disk > images. Well, maybe similarly to how you did with AIX, by the total size divided by number of images. Although what I was referring to was people's memories of the size of the box that they kept the install disks in :-) >> First CD-ROM install media that I got was Windows 3.00, but it was an >> inclusion on a "tools" collection CD-ROM (not quite a shovel-ware). Then a >> Multi-Language 3.00 CD-ROM from Microsoft (for international market) > > I would like to know more about, or better find a copy, of such a CD-ROM. The "Tools" CD-ROM was a third party commercial product containing a large collection of CD-ROM drivers. In August 1991, I attended a Microsoft Developer conference in Seattle. Bill Gates didn't show up, because he was in NYC on TV about the birthday of 5150 (August 11, 1981). They gave us copies of Windows 3.10 (which couldn't load on the 286 laptop that I had brought along, because it didn't have A20 support, and gave those of us who asked that international distribution Windows 3.0 CD-ROM. Never saw it before or since. It had Windows 3.0 installation with at least half a dozen different languages. > I do wish that I could do an install of MS-DOS 6.22, CD-ROM driver + > MSCDExec, DOSidle, and Windows 3.x on a CD-ROM for simplifying installations > in virtual machines. > I've not yet figured out how to put all of the install files for MS-DOS 6.22 > in one directory, boot and do the install. My minimal passes at doing so > don't work as well as I want or get stuck wanting to change the disk based on > the disk label. Actually, you can, and easily. MS-DOS 6 had an "INSTALL" program, which was demented. It INSISTED on installing on drive C:. But, some of my machines had four floppies, and I didn't want it to install on the 8" drive, or 3.25" drive, . . . Once you install it on SOME/ANY OTHER machine, then, with that OTHER machine booted up to DOS 6, just do a FORMAT A: /S of a boot floppy, and copy files onto that, specifically including FORMAT. FORGET ABOUT THE "INSTALLATION" files. with extreme prejudice. Boot your target machine with the DOS 6 boot floppy; it has FORMAT.COM on it (which IIRC was actually a .EXE file renamed .COM), and then use that to FORMAT C: /S . Once that system format is done, and CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT are up, then all of the rest is just copying files, which can be COPY *.*. >> The Chinese lady that I shared an office with was thrilled, because she was >> trying to teach herself Spanish, and that, along with the McCracken FORTRAN >> in Spanish were here preferred method. > ~chuckle~ For learning any language, it helps a LOT to have a copy of something that you are familiar with in that language. When she started to learn Spanish, I gave her a copy of McCracken FORTRAN in Spanish (she was familiar with, and had a copy of, the English edition), and loaned her the international Win3.0 disc. She then setup one machine with Win3 in English, one in Chinese, and one in Spansish. Win3.0 could run on an 8088, which were then a dime a dozen. I don't know whether you could put more than one copy on a machine. I think that you could - we had a copy of Win3.1 on a Win95 machine! >> 3.10 Windows CD-ROM from Microsoft > Interesting. But, the Windows 3.10 BETA program sent us tons of floppies. It had an even more demented problem: it installed Smartdrv first. Then, if it hit any error, the installation would fail, without the usual option to IGNORE and manually copy the failed file later. Instead, SMARTDRV cut out the options, and you could only R(etry)! If the error wasn't transient, then you could only power down the machine! But SMARTDRV had told DOS that stuff was ALREADY written that it hadn't done yet, so powering down wiped the whole installation. I had one machine that had an error that neither SpinRite nor SpeedStor could find, but the Windoze installation consistently found it! The work around was to put a lot of extraneous files on the disk, so that the sector with the error was used by something else. I reported the problem to the BETA support; their response was "That's a HARDWARE problem, NOT OUR PROBLEM." My comment that 1) any program should exit gracefully even from a hardware problem, not lock up the machine and 2) that SMARTDRV's actions would end up costing them substantially. (It DID; DOS 6.20 was written primarily to deal with SMARTDRV causing problems!) 'course my comment also meant that I wasn't invited back for any other BETA programs; they only wanted cheerleaders, not critics nor actual testers. >> When did MS-DOS come on CD-ROM??? Or did it? > Does MS-DOS 7.x; read Windows 95 / 98; count? ;-) maybe. > I don't know if any of the other Microsoft products, likely NT Server, > included MS-DOS installation files buried on the CD-ROM or not. There are > often interesting things if you know where to find them. >> Microsoft C compiler Version 5.00 on CD-ROM > #unknown It eliminated another LARGE box of floppies. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 23 19:45:24 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:45:24 -0700 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2021, at 5:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > On 7/23/21 5:58 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 7/23/21 2:57 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> Is it still possible to get accounts on the LCM systems? I wanted to get a login on the VAX 7000, but can?t figure out where to request an account. >>>> Zane >>> >>> What would you use it for if everything is shut down? >>> >>> bill >> The systems aren?t shutdown, I was able to connect to it, I just can?t log on. I never bothered to get accounts on any of the systems. >> Zane > > Interesting. The last time I tried to get to the LCM MineCraft Server > it wasn't there and when I asked (here or somewhere similar, don't > remember) I was told they had shut everything down when they laid off > all their people. > > bill I can?t speak for that, but the VAX 7000 is still online. Someone is obviously paying the electric bills at a minimum, as that?s got to chew through some real power. The XKL TOAD-2 is online as well (PDP-10 clone), and some of the emulated systems. I finally found a link to the page to request accounts, on their Wiki, the page can?t be found. I also discovered that a lot of the systems include GUEST accounts, the VAX isn?t one of them. :-( https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/doku.php At least I don?t *need* access, I have my own VAXen. I just wanted to check something. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 23 20:26:58 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 18:26:58 -0700 Subject: What's left of the Houston Museum stuff In-Reply-To: <6982590a-9bb4-0baa-198a-2b787e3920b7@gmail.com> References: <88a000a1-56a9-5e26-57fe-96ed52e21651@bitsavers.org> <7FDD860E-60C1-4550-8585-08B090155D73@avanthar.com> <6982590a-9bb4-0baa-198a-2b787e3920b7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8FD4C1-00FC-4C77-86DB-D42000177084@avanthar.com> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:00 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/23/2021 2:56 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Personally when I see ?Museum? in this context, I don?t think of this as a museum not taking care of the artifacts, I look at this from the standpoint of the founder not taking the necessary steps when setting the Museum up to ensure its preservation after his death (or when the founder runs out of money). > > I thought there was a disaster (flood) that had basically trashed the place. Did I get that wrong? (I could understand a "failure in planning" followed by "total liquidation of assets" in such a scenario.) > > Vince I?d thought he passed away, maybe not. I did some digging through my email archives, and Sellam posted this in 2019. https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/marketplace/vintage-computer-items-for-sale-or-trade/72862-vintage-computer-warehouse-liquidation/page3?71708-Vintage-Computer-Warehouse-Liquidation=#post885945 Actually Al mentions in that thread it failed due to lack of funding, so my memory isn?t totally faulty. It looks like there were questions in 2019 about what had happened to John Keys. It also sounds like there might have been at least two floods that have hit the collection. I think I found messages mentioning both 2015 and 2017 floods. Zane From ian at platinum.net Fri Jul 23 20:27:58 2021 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 18:27:58 -0700 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <3D21B300-EF25-44F6-92CB-F7B329D33B74@platinum.net> > On Jul 23, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I can?t speak for that, but the VAX 7000 is still online. Someone is obviously paying the electric bills at a minimum, as that?s got to chew through some real power. The XKL TOAD-2 is online as well (PDP-10 clone), and some of the emulated systems. > > I finally found a link to the page to request accounts, on their Wiki, the page can?t be found. I also discovered that a lot of the systems include GUEST accounts, the VAX isn?t one of them. :-( > > https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/doku.php > > At least I don?t *need* access, I have my own VAXen. I just wanted to check something. > > Zane > I used to have an account on the 7000, but I can?t find my login details. I did get an email on March 13 2020 saying that they were temporarily shutting down the museum but the online systems were going to stay online. I wonder if anyone is monitoring sysadmin at livingcomputers.org ? Ian From lars at nocrew.org Sat Jul 24 01:12:48 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 06:12:48 +0000 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: (Zane Healy via cctalk's message of "Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:45:24 -0700") References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7wfsw4dyu7.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> What would you use it for if everything is shut down? LCM isn't completely shut down. Zane Healy wrote: > I can?t speak for that, but the VAX 7000 is still online. Someone is > obviously paying the electric bills at a minimum, as that?s got to > chew through some real power. The XKL TOAD-2 is online as well > (PDP-10 clone), and some of the emulated systems. To get a list of online hardware and emulators: ssh meny at tty.livingcomputers.org From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sat Jul 24 04:36:00 2021 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 11:36:00 +0200 Subject: Pro-Log M980 Programmer Message-ID: <20210724113600.Horde.jlvVVEv4Cn9g_98Al5BFVqA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Hi, I own a Pro-Log M980 Prom Programmer and want to program a 2732 EProm. I have everything needed, but how can I get the data in? There is a serial interface, did anybody have some program for a standard PC to handle that daa transfer? Cabling istn't an issue, can do it. Thanks for helping. With best regards Gerhard From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jul 24 07:51:59 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 07:51:59 -0500 Subject: Sourcing Capacitors for my H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <006201d77fe2$953b8000$bfb28000$@ntlworld.com> References: <006201d77fe2$953b8000$bfb28000$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <09e0f6b8-e2a9-b017-eeb4-8d06114416d1@charter.net> On 7/23/2021 11:48 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I gave up trying to repair this PSU myself and I have got someone to do it > professionally. It seems they have it working well but think that two > capacitors should still be replaced. I think these are the two big "Coke > Can" sized filter capacitors. The trouble is they seem to be unable to find > any. The spec for them is 4500uf 200v DxH 76mm x 145mm Qty. 2. > Some particular reason you want to replace them? Perhaps instead measure their ESR and if that measures OK, maybe just reform them (I do realize that at 200v the reforming would be harder than for most.) I had a capacitor fail in my H7140 many years go, but it was not one of the larger caps. I generally turn on my 11/24 every few months to do something or other, so it tends to stay pretty happy. My experience, aside from the bad capacitors from 1999-2003 swelling up and failing, and maybe two tantalums total (one recent one in a 3270 PC that decided to short and release its "magic smoke") I haven't had very many electrolytics fail - fewer than five - that actually needed replacing - one of which was a smaller cap in my H7140. JRJ From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Jul 24 09:55:59 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 07:55:59 -0700 Subject: Pro-Log M980 Programmer In-Reply-To: <20210724113600.Horde.jlvVVEv4Cn9g_98Al5BFVqA@webmail.domainplanet.at> References: <20210724113600.Horde.jlvVVEv4Cn9g_98Al5BFVqA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: On 2021-Jul-24, at 2:36 AM, DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk wrote: > I own a Pro-Log M980 Prom Programmer and want to program a 2732 EProm. I > have everything needed, but how can I get the data in? > There is a serial interface, did anybody have some program for a standard > PC to handle that daa transfer? > Cabling istn't an issue, can do it. > > Thanks for helping. Do you not have the manual? The M980 manual is on bitsavers. I have the slightly earlier M900 model, by the front panel they're quite similar. I've used it for programming 2716s, although it's been a few years. IIRC it's an ASCII-format protocol for RS-232 serial, so you just have to have a terminal program you can dump a file through. Be careful about the hardware communications interfaces. The 9-pin D connector labeled 'serial interface' is not the RS-232 serial standard. There were several firmware and hardware communication options. Do you have the pro-log adapter, or are you making an assumption about what's there? My unit had the RS-232/serial firmware option but was missing the RS-232 adapter, so I had to build one (can be done with just a MAX232 IC). From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 24 11:41:13 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 10:41:13 -0600 Subject: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 7/23/21 6:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Well, maybe similarly to how you did with AIX, by the total size divided > by number of images.? Although what I was referring to was people's > memories of the size of the box that they kept the install disks in :-) Maybe someone who is more versed in the possible disk sizes and more accurate (non-rounded) count. I'm extremely foggy when it comes to 5-1/4 inch disk capacities. 720 kB and 1.44 MB disks I can deal with. But the minutia between 320 kB and 360 kB, combined with rounded measurements, things get foggy for me. > The "Tools" CD-ROM was a third party commercial product containing a > large collection of CD-ROM drivers. Talk about a chicken and egg / priming problem. How do you get the CD-ROM drivers off of the CD-ROM that you need a driver to access. ;-) The quintessential answer is to have (access to) another system (or driver) assist. > In August 1991, I attended a Microsoft Developer conference in Seattle. > Bill Gates didn't show up, because he was in NYC on TV about the > birthday of 5150 (August 11, 1981).? They gave us copies of Windows 3.10 > (which couldn't load on the 286 laptop that I had brought along, because > it didn't have A20 support, and gave those of us who asked that > international distribution Windows 3.0 CD-ROM.? Never saw it before or > since. It had Windows 3.0 installation with at least half a dozen > different languages. Windows 3.x was relatively easy to streamline the installation by doing -- what I think is called -- an "administrative" install such that it copies all files off of the floppies into a single directory, presumably on a network share, in a way that means that you can subsequently run setup therefrom. I don't remember if simply copying all the files into a single directory also sufficed. > Actually, you can, and easily. > MS-DOS 6 had an "INSTALL" program, which was demented.? It INSISTED on > installing on drive C:.? But, some of my machines had four floppies, and > I didn't want it to install on the 8" drive, or 3.25" drive, . . . Once > you install it on SOME/ANY OTHER machine, then, with that OTHER machine > booted up to DOS 6, just do a FORMAT A: /S of a boot floppy, and copy > files onto that, specifically including FORMAT. Ya. I know that I can manually install MS-DOS by sysing boot media (floppy or hard disk) and copying the contents of the DOS directory. But that seems like more of a hack than should be necessary. Though it can be made less annoying. > FORGET ABOUT THE "INSTALLATION" files.? with extreme prejudice. > Boot your target machine with the DOS 6 boot floppy;? it has FORMAT.COM > on it (which IIRC was actually a .EXE file renamed .COM), and then use > that to FORMAT C: /S . I feel like there /should/ be a way to streamline the MS-DOS 6.22 installation using methods from Microsoft. But, maybe I'm asking for too much. Or more likely, I've simply not found it yet. I do sort of like the installer from the 3rd party MS-DOS 7.10 CD-ROM that's floating around the Internet. That's the general idea of what I'd like. > Once that system format is done, and CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT are up, > then all of the rest is just copying files, which can be COPY *.*. ACK > For learning any language, it helps a LOT to have a copy of something > that you are familiar with in that language.? When she started to learn > Spanish, I gave her a copy of McCracken FORTRAN in Spanish (she was > familiar with, and had a copy of, the English edition), and loaned her > the international Win3.0 disc.? She then setup one machine with Win3 in > English, one in Chinese, and one in Spansish. > Win3.0 could run on an 8088, which were then a dime a dozen. > > I don't know whether you could put more than one copy on a machine.? I > think that you could - we had a copy of Win3.1 on a Win95 machine! I think you definitely could put more than one copy of Windows 3.x on a single machine. The biggest point of contention I see would be parts of CONFIG.SYS that reference drivers inside of the Windows directory. However there are plenty of ways to deal with that. Beyond that, it's just another directory that consumes disk space. Aside: I've got a virtual machine with the following installed and bootable using Microsoft boot options: - MS-DOS 6.22 - Windows 3.11 (on top of MS-DOS 6.22) - Windows 95 - Windows 98* - Windows NT - Windows 2000 - Windows XP *I'm just shy of 100% certain that both 95 and 98 were on there. I did it as an exercise to see if it would work, and it does. I think I did the install in that order. MS-DOS 6.22 vs Windows 3.11 was simply a matter of starting Windows (WIN) at the command prompt. Windows 95 brought in it's MSDOS.SYS based boot menu and allowed booting "MS-DOS" (or something like that). I think Windows 98 had an option to augment 95's boot menu to allow both 95 and 98. Windows NT / 2000 / XP brought in BOOT.INI and another "Older Windows" (nomenclature?) menu option as well as NT / 2k / XP. > But, the Windows 3.10 BETA program sent us tons of floppies. I bet. > It had an even more demented problem: it installed Smartdrv first. > Then, if it hit any error, the installation would fail, without the > usual option to IGNORE and manually copy the failed file later. > Instead, SMARTDRV cut out the options, and you could only R(etry)!? If > the error wasn't transient, then you could only power down the machine! > But SMARTDRV had told DOS that stuff was ALREADY written that it hadn't > done yet, so powering down wiped the whole installation.? I had one > machine that had an error that neither SpinRite nor SpeedStor could > find, but the Windoze installation consistently found it!? The work > around was to put a lot of extraneous files on the disk, so that the > sector with the error was used by something else.? I reported the > problem to the BETA support; their response was "That's a HARDWARE > problem, NOT OUR PROBLEM."? My comment that 1) any program should exit > gracefully even from a hardware problem, not lock up the machine and 2) > that SMARTDRV's actions would end up costing them substantially.? (It > DID; DOS 6.20 was written primarily to deal with SMARTDRV causing > problems!)? 'course my comment also meant that I wasn't invited back for > any other BETA programs; they only wanted cheerleaders, not critics nor > actual testers. Ya. Thankfully (?) I started with computers after that and avoided things like that. > It eliminated another LARGE box of floppies. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 24 11:50:43 2021 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 16:50:43 +0000 Subject: Pro-Log M980 Programmer In-Reply-To: <20210724113600.Horde.jlvVVEv4Cn9g_98Al5BFVqA@webmail.domainplanet.at> References: <20210724113600.Horde.jlvVVEv4Cn9g_98Al5BFVqA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: I had a Data I/O 29B with a serial interface and I assume your Pro-Log is similar. Cabled up and baud correct you should get a menu on a CR with your host. Mine took an Intel or Motorala ASCI HEX string on power up without any commands or prompts. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of DI Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 2:36 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Pro-Log M980 Programmer Hi, I own a Pro-Log M980 Prom Programmer and want to program a 2732 EProm. I have everything needed, but how can I get the data in? There is a serial interface, did anybody have some program for a standard PC to handle that daa transfer? Cabling istn't an issue, can do it. Thanks for helping. With best regards Gerhard From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 12:20:53 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 12:20:53 -0500 Subject: Pro-Log M980 Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <20210724113600.Horde.jlvVVEv4Cn9g_98Al5BFVqA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 11:50 Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > I had a Data I/O 29B with a serial interface and I assume your Pro-Log is > similar. > Cabled up and baud correct you should get a menu on a CR with your host. > Mine took an Intel or Motorala ASCI HEX string on power up without any > commands or prompts. > Randy > No menu on a Pro-Log. It's a very basic unit powered by an Intel 4004 or 4040. The manuals on bitsavers do a very good job explaining how to use the 980 and 900, as Brent mentioned. Kyle > From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jul 24 12:21:34 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 11:21:34 -0600 Subject: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 10:41 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 7/23/21 6:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Well, maybe similarly to how you did with AIX, by the total size divided > > by number of images. Although what I was referring to was people's > > memories of the size of the box that they kept the install disks in :-) > > Maybe someone who is more versed in the possible disk sizes and more > accurate (non-rounded) count. I'm extremely foggy when it comes to > 5-1/4 inch disk capacities. 720 kB and 1.44 MB disks I can deal with. > But the minutia between 320 kB and 360 kB, combined with rounded > measurements, things get foggy for me. > 320k - 8 sectors per track, 40 tracks, 2 sides. 640 512 byte sectors. 360k same, but 9 sectors per track. 720 512 byte sectors. There are also single sided versions as well with 1/2 the capacity. Warner > > > The "Tools" CD-ROM was a third party commercial product containing a > > large collection of CD-ROM drivers. > > Talk about a chicken and egg / priming problem. How do you get the > CD-ROM drivers off of the CD-ROM that you need a driver to access. ;-) > The quintessential answer is to have (access to) another system (or > driver) assist. > > > In August 1991, I attended a Microsoft Developer conference in Seattle. > > Bill Gates didn't show up, because he was in NYC on TV about the > > birthday of 5150 (August 11, 1981). They gave us copies of Windows 3.10 > > (which couldn't load on the 286 laptop that I had brought along, because > > it didn't have A20 support, and gave those of us who asked that > > international distribution Windows 3.0 CD-ROM. Never saw it before or > > since. It had Windows 3.0 installation with at least half a dozen > > different languages. > > Windows 3.x was relatively easy to streamline the installation by doing > -- what I think is called -- an "administrative" install such that it > copies all files off of the floppies into a single directory, presumably > on a network share, in a way that means that you can subsequently run > setup therefrom. I don't remember if simply copying all the files into > a single directory also sufficed. > > > Actually, you can, and easily. > > MS-DOS 6 had an "INSTALL" program, which was demented. It INSISTED on > > installing on drive C:. But, some of my machines had four floppies, and > > I didn't want it to install on the 8" drive, or 3.25" drive, . . . Once > > you install it on SOME/ANY OTHER machine, then, with that OTHER machine > > booted up to DOS 6, just do a FORMAT A: /S of a boot floppy, and copy > > files onto that, specifically including FORMAT. > > Ya. I know that I can manually install MS-DOS by sysing boot media > (floppy or hard disk) and copying the contents of the DOS directory. > But that seems like more of a hack than should be necessary. Though it > can be made less annoying. > > > FORGET ABOUT THE "INSTALLATION" files. with extreme prejudice. > > Boot your target machine with the DOS 6 boot floppy; it has FORMAT.COM > > on it (which IIRC was actually a .EXE file renamed .COM), and then use > > that to FORMAT C: /S . > > I feel like there /should/ be a way to streamline the MS-DOS 6.22 > installation using methods from Microsoft. But, maybe I'm asking for > too much. Or more likely, I've simply not found it yet. > > I do sort of like the installer from the 3rd party MS-DOS 7.10 CD-ROM > that's floating around the Internet. That's the general idea of what > I'd like. > > > Once that system format is done, and CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT are up, > > then all of the rest is just copying files, which can be COPY *.*. > > ACK > > > For learning any language, it helps a LOT to have a copy of something > > that you are familiar with in that language. When she started to learn > > Spanish, I gave her a copy of McCracken FORTRAN in Spanish (she was > > familiar with, and had a copy of, the English edition), and loaned her > > the international Win3.0 disc. She then setup one machine with Win3 in > > English, one in Chinese, and one in Spansish. > > Win3.0 could run on an 8088, which were then a dime a dozen. > > > > I don't know whether you could put more than one copy on a machine. I > > think that you could - we had a copy of Win3.1 on a Win95 machine! > > I think you definitely could put more than one copy of Windows 3.x on a > single machine. The biggest point of contention I see would be parts of > CONFIG.SYS that reference drivers inside of the Windows directory. > However there are plenty of ways to deal with that. Beyond that, it's > just another directory that consumes disk space. > > Aside: I've got a virtual machine with the following installed and > bootable using Microsoft boot options: > - MS-DOS 6.22 > - Windows 3.11 (on top of MS-DOS 6.22) > - Windows 95 > - Windows 98* > - Windows NT > - Windows 2000 > - Windows XP > > *I'm just shy of 100% certain that both 95 and 98 were on there. > > I did it as an exercise to see if it would work, and it does. I think I > did the install in that order. MS-DOS 6.22 vs Windows 3.11 was simply a > matter of starting Windows (WIN) at the command prompt. Windows 95 > brought in it's MSDOS.SYS based boot menu and allowed booting "MS-DOS" > (or something like that). I think Windows 98 had an option to augment > 95's boot menu to allow both 95 and 98. Windows NT / 2000 / XP brought > in BOOT.INI and another "Older Windows" (nomenclature?) menu option as > well as NT / 2k / XP. > > > But, the Windows 3.10 BETA program sent us tons of floppies. > > I bet. > > > It had an even more demented problem: it installed Smartdrv first. > > Then, if it hit any error, the installation would fail, without the > > usual option to IGNORE and manually copy the failed file later. > > Instead, SMARTDRV cut out the options, and you could only R(etry)! If > > the error wasn't transient, then you could only power down the machine! > > But SMARTDRV had told DOS that stuff was ALREADY written that it hadn't > > done yet, so powering down wiped the whole installation. I had one > > machine that had an error that neither SpinRite nor SpeedStor could > > find, but the Windoze installation consistently found it! The work > > around was to put a lot of extraneous files on the disk, so that the > > sector with the error was used by something else. I reported the > > problem to the BETA support; their response was "That's a HARDWARE > > problem, NOT OUR PROBLEM." My comment that 1) any program should exit > > gracefully even from a hardware problem, not lock up the machine and 2) > > that SMARTDRV's actions would end up costing them substantially. (It > > DID; DOS 6.20 was written primarily to deal with SMARTDRV causing > > problems!) 'course my comment also meant that I wasn't invited back for > > any other BETA programs; they only wanted cheerleaders, not critics nor > > actual testers. > > Ya. Thankfully (?) I started with computers after that and avoided > things like that. > > > It eliminated another LARGE box of floppies. > > ;-) > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Jul 24 12:33:40 2021 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 17:33:40 +0000 Subject: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> , Message-ID: The ?administrative? install is often called a ?flat? installation. That?s how I usually install Windows 3.1 when I need it. On a machine with no CD, I install Procomm and ZModem it over and unzip it into a temporary directory. I also have a one-floppy Windows 3.1 setup (I can get 386Enh running) that I use for random things. http://cini.classiccmp.org/ Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Warner Losh via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 1:21:34 PM To: Grant Taylor ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 10:41 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 7/23/21 6:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Well, maybe similarly to how you did with AIX, by the total size divided > > by number of images. Although what I was referring to was people's > > memories of the size of the box that they kept the install disks in :-) > > Maybe someone who is more versed in the possible disk sizes and more > accurate (non-rounded) count. I'm extremely foggy when it comes to > 5-1/4 inch disk capacities. 720 kB and 1.44 MB disks I can deal with. > But the minutia between 320 kB and 360 kB, combined with rounded > measurements, things get foggy for me. > 320k - 8 sectors per track, 40 tracks, 2 sides. 640 512 byte sectors. 360k same, but 9 sectors per track. 720 512 byte sectors. There are also single sided versions as well with 1/2 the capacity. Warner > > > The "Tools" CD-ROM was a third party commercial product containing a > > large collection of CD-ROM drivers. > > Talk about a chicken and egg / priming problem. How do you get the > CD-ROM drivers off of the CD-ROM that you need a driver to access. ;-) > The quintessential answer is to have (access to) another system (or > driver) assist. > > > In August 1991, I attended a Microsoft Developer conference in Seattle. > > Bill Gates didn't show up, because he was in NYC on TV about the > > birthday of 5150 (August 11, 1981). They gave us copies of Windows 3.10 > > (which couldn't load on the 286 laptop that I had brought along, because > > it didn't have A20 support, and gave those of us who asked that > > international distribution Windows 3.0 CD-ROM. Never saw it before or > > since. It had Windows 3.0 installation with at least half a dozen > > different languages. > > Windows 3.x was relatively easy to streamline the installation by doing > -- what I think is called -- an "administrative" install such that it > copies all files off of the floppies into a single directory, presumably > on a network share, in a way that means that you can subsequently run > setup therefrom. I don't remember if simply copying all the files into > a single directory also sufficed. > > > Actually, you can, and easily. > > MS-DOS 6 had an "INSTALL" program, which was demented. It INSISTED on > > installing on drive C:. But, some of my machines had four floppies, and > > I didn't want it to install on the 8" drive, or 3.25" drive, . . . Once > > you install it on SOME/ANY OTHER machine, then, with that OTHER machine > > booted up to DOS 6, just do a FORMAT A: /S of a boot floppy, and copy > > files onto that, specifically including FORMAT. > > Ya. I know that I can manually install MS-DOS by sysing boot media > (floppy or hard disk) and copying the contents of the DOS directory. > But that seems like more of a hack than should be necessary. Though it > can be made less annoying. > > > FORGET ABOUT THE "INSTALLATION" files. with extreme prejudice. > > Boot your target machine with the DOS 6 boot floppy; it has FORMAT.COM > > on it (which IIRC was actually a .EXE file renamed .COM), and then use > > that to FORMAT C: /S . > > I feel like there /should/ be a way to streamline the MS-DOS 6.22 > installation using methods from Microsoft. But, maybe I'm asking for > too much. Or more likely, I've simply not found it yet. > > I do sort of like the installer from the 3rd party MS-DOS 7.10 CD-ROM > that's floating around the Internet. That's the general idea of what > I'd like. > > > Once that system format is done, and CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT are up, > > then all of the rest is just copying files, which can be COPY *.*. > > ACK > > > For learning any language, it helps a LOT to have a copy of something > > that you are familiar with in that language. When she started to learn > > Spanish, I gave her a copy of McCracken FORTRAN in Spanish (she was > > familiar with, and had a copy of, the English edition), and loaned her > > the international Win3.0 disc. She then setup one machine with Win3 in > > English, one in Chinese, and one in Spansish. > > Win3.0 could run on an 8088, which were then a dime a dozen. > > > > I don't know whether you could put more than one copy on a machine. I > > think that you could - we had a copy of Win3.1 on a Win95 machine! > > I think you definitely could put more than one copy of Windows 3.x on a > single machine. The biggest point of contention I see would be parts of > CONFIG.SYS that reference drivers inside of the Windows directory. > However there are plenty of ways to deal with that. Beyond that, it's > just another directory that consumes disk space. > > Aside: I've got a virtual machine with the following installed and > bootable using Microsoft boot options: > - MS-DOS 6.22 > - Windows 3.11 (on top of MS-DOS 6.22) > - Windows 95 > - Windows 98* > - Windows NT > - Windows 2000 > - Windows XP > > *I'm just shy of 100% certain that both 95 and 98 were on there. > > I did it as an exercise to see if it would work, and it does. I think I > did the install in that order. MS-DOS 6.22 vs Windows 3.11 was simply a > matter of starting Windows (WIN) at the command prompt. Windows 95 > brought in it's MSDOS.SYS based boot menu and allowed booting "MS-DOS" > (or something like that). I think Windows 98 had an option to augment > 95's boot menu to allow both 95 and 98. Windows NT / 2000 / XP brought > in BOOT.INI and another "Older Windows" (nomenclature?) menu option as > well as NT / 2k / XP. > > > But, the Windows 3.10 BETA program sent us tons of floppies. > > I bet. > > > It had an even more demented problem: it installed Smartdrv first. > > Then, if it hit any error, the installation would fail, without the > > usual option to IGNORE and manually copy the failed file later. > > Instead, SMARTDRV cut out the options, and you could only R(etry)! If > > the error wasn't transient, then you could only power down the machine! > > But SMARTDRV had told DOS that stuff was ALREADY written that it hadn't > > done yet, so powering down wiped the whole installation. I had one > > machine that had an error that neither SpinRite nor SpeedStor could > > find, but the Windoze installation consistently found it! The work > > around was to put a lot of extraneous files on the disk, so that the > > sector with the error was used by something else. I reported the > > problem to the BETA support; their response was "That's a HARDWARE > > problem, NOT OUR PROBLEM." My comment that 1) any program should exit > > gracefully even from a hardware problem, not lock up the machine and 2) > > that SMARTDRV's actions would end up costing them substantially. (It > > DID; DOS 6.20 was written primarily to deal with SMARTDRV causing > > problems!) 'course my comment also meant that I wasn't invited back for > > any other BETA programs; they only wanted cheerleaders, not critics nor > > actual testers. > > Ya. Thankfully (?) I started with computers after that and avoided > things like that. > > > It eliminated another LARGE box of floppies. > > ;-) > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 12:51:58 2021 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 17:51:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Inventory (was Re: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s) In-Reply-To: <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <207021042.825884.1627149118098@mail.yahoo.com> Here is an inventory of what I have for parts that I am desiring to pass on to others if they are interested or to seek permission to pitch to an electronics recycler (or rubbish bin) if these things are of limited value due to being plentiful. See the main e-mail by the original title for the dilemma I am working with, in that the main systems are now all gone, and these are additional pieces that had been pulled from similar vintage of PC systems, mostly of the Pentium II/III era as sold or used with Compaq Deskpro EN-type mini-tower systems. Mixed in are a few parts of yet older desktops I previously had, particular some ISA cards, a couple of IDE hard drives with capacities below 1 GB, a couple of 4 MB memory SIMMs, and even a spare Pentium P-90 processor. I am not prepared to do a significant amount of mailing, but some can be considered. If so, I'd want to recover at least mailing cost, plus (depending on the item) possibly a little extra contribution. I am not set up to receive PayPal (nor care to go there), so either cash, check, or money order mailed to me. But primarily I just want this stuff out of the house, as it is all extra to my future, as I need to downsize and my focus is elsewhere, on newer systems needed to run Linux and mainly laptops at that. Kevin Anderson, Dubuque, Iowa (also K9IUA for those that recognize what that means). p.s. the discussion that has followed my original post has also been somewhat interesting. =============================== Inventory of boards, memory, and drives for possible resale 24 July 2021 --------------------------------------error 3.5-inch floppy drive:error Qty 1, Teac FD-235HF Qty 1, Mitsubishi MF355F-3496UC, May 1998 Mfg date Qty 1, NEC FDD 1.44MB FD1231T-269 -------------------------------------- 5.25-inch floppy disk drives (original system sources not remembered): Qty 1, Chinon Model FR-506, Rev B, Serial Number 20336929 Qty 1, Alps Electric Co., DFC222B05A (elsewhere on the drive motor, it says Sanyo70415 F2SLR53 Y) Qty 1, Epson SD-680L, Y8249861 -------------------------------------- 5.25-inch CD-ROM drives (these all appear to be read-only, non-werrorriteable drives): Qty 7, Compaq Model CRD-8322B(CPerror1), Compaq Part No. 1799137-706, Compaq Spare Part No. 327659-001, five (5) vintage January 1999 & one (1) vintage May 2001, all with 2-pin audio connecting cable, pulled from Deskpro ENs, Made in Korea Qty 2, Compaq Model LTNerror-403, Made in China (Mfg Code LIT), Compaq Part Number 176432-E73, Mfg Date (1) March 2000 and (1) August 2000, also pulled from Deskpro's. -------------------------------------- 3.5-inch ATA/IDE hard drives Those left over from earlier 486 and Pentium II computers: Qty 1, 80 MB Maxtor 7080AT Qty 1, 100 MB Seagate ST3120A Qty 1, 245 MB Maxtor Model 7245AT Qty 1, 540 MB Maxtor Model 7546AT Qty 1, 540 MB Western Digital Caviar 2540 Qty 1, 4.32 GB Samsung VG34324A Those definitely from the Compaq Deskpro-EN era: Qty 10, 10-GB Western Digital Caviar 310000 (Model AC310000) Qty 1, 10 GB Quantum Fireball Qty 1, 10 GB Fujitsu MPC3102AT Qty 1, 20 GB Seagate Barracuda ATA IV, Model ST320011A Qty 2, 20 GB Seagate ATA V, Model ST320013A Qty 1, 20 GB Seagate UB, model ST320410A Qty 2, 20 GB Seagate Barracuda ATA, Model ST320414A Qty 1, 30 GB IBM Deskstar, model DTLA-307030 Qty 1, 40 GB Seagate Model ST340015A Barracuda -------------------------------------- Circuit Boards - ISA (I vaguely recall these were all part of earlier computers I used to have, or were cards given to me) Qty 1, Model IODE-3292U Multi I/O Plus IDE Plus FDD Interface Card (IDE HDD + FDD + 2 Serial + 1 Parallel + 1 Game Port) Unknown brand. Qty 1, Creative Soundcard CT2260 (chip says "Vibra 16, Creative Tech '94, CT2501-TCQ 9449") Qty 1, Western Digital NIC, 10 Mbit, WD8013EW DD1, Made in Ireland, With BNC, 15-pin, and RJ Ethernet connections Qty 1, 3Com Etherlink III 3C509-Combo, 10 Mbit, With BNC, 15-pin, and RJ Ethernet connections Qty 1, USRobotics 0854 modem card. (Also says 1998 3Com on the circuit board) Qty 1, Cardinal modem card, Model 020-0468 (14.4 modem as I recall, as I bought this modem new, possibly a Winmodem) -------------------------------------- Circuit Boards - PCI (pulls from Compaq Deskpro systems) Qty 1 - 3Com Etherlink 10/100 PCI, 3C905-TXM Qty 2 - 3Com Etherlink 10/100 PCI, 3C905C-TXM Qty 1 - 3Com Etherlink 10/100 PCI, 3C905CX - TXMM Qty 2 - Compaq-labeled NC3121 100-mbit Ethernet card Qty 1 - Unbranded 100-mbit Ethernet card (Compaq spare part 116188-001) Qty 1 - Compaq-labeled 8-MB AGP Video Card (Matrox G200 Millenium, MK02560, G2_DMILA/8D/CPQ) Qty 1 - VGA video card (Cirrus Logic chips) Identifying marks include: VGA-PV5465/AR, plus someone having written "4 mb" -------------------------------------- Memory (I will relay any identifying information I can find): DIMMs pulled from Compaq Deskpro EN or similar: Qty 2 - 32MB PC100-322-620 MT4LSDT464AG-10CB2 (Compaq part # 323029-001) Qty 3 - 32MB PC100-222-620 MT8LDSDT864AG-10EC7 (Compaq part # 323012-001) Qty 2 - 32MB PC100-222-620 Siemens HYS64V8200GU-8 A2199150301 (Compaq part # 323012-001) Qty 1 - 32MB(??) PC100-322-620 MH8S64AALD-8 (Compaq part # 323012-001) Qty 1 - 32MB(??) PC100-322-620 (Compaq part # 323012-001) Qty 1 - 64MB, Sync, 100MHz CL3 (Compaq part # 323612-001) Qty 1 - 128MB, Sync, 133MHz, CL3 Infineon HYS64V16300GU-7.5-C2 16Mx64 SDRAM (Compaq part # 140133-001) Qty 2 - 256MB Sync 133MHz CL3 Samsung PC133U-333-542 M366S3253DTS-C7A (Compaq part # 140134-001) Qty 3 - 256MB Kingston KTC-EN133/256 9902112-438.801 USA Qty 1 - 256MB Sync 133MHz CL 3, Smart Modular Technologies (Puerto Rico) SIMMs from an earlier system, possibly an earlier Dell (386?) that my brother had once given me, but I am honestly not sure: Qty 1 - 4MB -70 1Mx32 E945477 U703 091 DTC 8728, configured as a single SIMM (for one slot, 72 pins in two sections) Qty 1 - 4MB SIMM (72 pins, in two sections) consisting of a main board that plugs into the system slot, but actually has Qty 4 of 1MB daughter SIMMS for the memory. Identification on main board: Sermax P/N S004T AS00300003-00 U3 Identification on the first memory SIMM: IBM AP 091B 94 U416 B1A1090BA -70 1MB 1M x 9 P -------------------------------------- Processor Pentium P-90, with attached heatsink and latching strap. Given to me by a friend, so I never used it myself, so condition unknown. Intel (c) 92 93 on chip label. Ready to insert into motherboard socket (unknown type). ======== END ================== From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sat Jul 24 15:32:13 2021 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 22:32:13 +0200 Subject: Pro-Log M980 Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <20210724113600.Horde.jlvVVEv4Cn9g_98Al5BFVqA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: <20210724223213.Horde.BHj9akv4Cn9g-HjNOE5FsnA@webmail.domainplanet.at> Hi Randy, thanks for the info. We will give it a try and we will see whats happen. With best regards Gerhard Zitat von Randy Dawson : > I had a Data I/O 29B with a serial interface and I assume your > Pro-Log is similar. > Cabled up and baud correct you should get a menu on a CR with your host. > Mine took an Intel or Motorala ASCI HEX string on power up without > any commands or prompts. > Randy > ? > > ------------------------- > FROM: cctalk on behalf of DI Gerhard > Kreuzer via cctalk > SENT: Saturday, July 24, 2021 2:36 AM > TO: cctalk at classiccmp.org > SUBJECT: Pro-Log M980 Programmer? > > Hi, > ? I own a Pro-Log M980 Prom Programmer and want to program a > 2732 EProm. I > have everything needed, but how can I get the data in? > ? There is a serial interface, did anybody have some program > for a standard > PC to handle that daa transfer? > ? Cabling istn't an issue, can do it. > > ? Thanks for helping. > > ? With best regards > > ? Gerhard > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 24 16:17:22 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 22:17:22 +0100 Subject: Sourcing Capacitors for my H7140 PSU In-Reply-To: <09e0f6b8-e2a9-b017-eeb4-8d06114416d1@charter.net> References: <006201d77fe2$953b8000$bfb28000$@ntlworld.com> <09e0f6b8-e2a9-b017-eeb4-8d06114416d1@charter.net> Message-ID: <00e701d780d1$4b770350$e26509f0$@ntlworld.com> Well I don't know as I have asked a company to do the work. They seem to think the PSU will work with the originals but perhaps that they are not performing very well? I suppose I should ask them to keep the originals. I did wonder about reforming them. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger via > cctalk > Sent: 24 July 2021 13:52 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Sourcing Capacitors for my H7140 PSU > > On 7/23/2021 11:48 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I gave up trying to repair this PSU myself and I have got someone to > > do it professionally. It seems they have it working well but think > > that two capacitors should still be replaced. I think these are the > > two big "Coke Can" sized filter capacitors. The trouble is they seem > > to be unable to find any. The spec for them is 4500uf 200v DxH 76mm x > 145mm Qty. 2. > > > > Some particular reason you want to replace them? Perhaps instead measure > their ESR and if that measures OK, maybe just reform them (I do realize that > at 200v the reforming would be harder than for most.) > > I had a capacitor fail in my H7140 many years go, but it was not one of the > larger caps. I generally turn on my 11/24 every few months to do something > or other, so it tends to stay pretty happy. > > My experience, aside from the bad capacitors from 1999-2003 swelling up > and failing, and maybe two tantalums total (one recent one in a 3270 PC that > decided to short and release its "magic smoke") I haven't had very many > electrolytics fail - fewer than five - that actually needed replacing - one of > which was a smaller cap in my H7140. > > JRJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 24 17:27:10 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 15:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 10:41 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Maybe someone who is more versed in the possible disk sizes and more >> accurate (non-rounded) count. I'm extremely foggy when it comes to >> 5-1/4 inch disk capacities. 720 kB and 1.44 MB disks I can deal with. >> But the minutia between 320 kB and 360 kB, combined with rounded >> measurements, things get foggy for me. OK, I am going to take a chance that you, or others here, want to know more about it. The sizes that would be used were: 360K 1.2M 1.4M DMF 1.64M XDF 1.8M TLDR: Other PC formats: "160K" 5.25": August 1981, the 5150 ("PC") was released with 5.25" "industry standard" Tandon TM100-1 drives. IBM was not ready to use double sided. DOS 1.00 300 RPM, 48 Tracks Per inch, 250,000 bits per second 1 side, 40 tracks, 8 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector 163,840 160K Please note: This is not "rounded", it is based on K meaning Kibibyte of 1024 bytes. "320K": DOS 1.10 Same, but double sided. 2 sides * 40 cylinders (trackse per side) * 8 Sectors per track * 512 BPS 327,680 320K "180K": DOS 2.00 Change from 8 sectors pr track to 9 sectors per track. Single sided version: 1 side * 40 tracks * 9 SPT * 512 BPS 184,320 180K "360K": Same but double sided. 2 sides * 40 cylinders * 9 SPT * 512 BPS 368,640 360K Some software distribution continued to be on 180K, to allow for customers who still used single sided drives. "720K" 5.25": NON-USA PC-DOS 2.10 IBM PC-JX (not sold in USA) had an 80 track per side 5.25" drive (what some CP/M companies called "Quad Density") "720K": MS-DOS 2.11 OEM versions of MS-DOS were sometimes provided with 720K support, primarily companies that had implemented 3.5" drives, such as Gavilan, Zenith, Data General, etc. They did not all use the same numbers of sectors in the file system overhead. For example, Gavilan, when switching from 2.11J to 2.11K changed to be compatible with the later IBM 3.5" format. "1.2M"/"HD 5.25": PC-DOS 3.00 IBM PC/AT (5170) supported a "High Density" 5.25" 96 tracks per inch, 360 RPM 500,000; bits per second. 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 15 SPT * 512 BPS 1,228,800 1,200K 1.17MiB 1.2 MARKETING-MEGABYTES (1,000 * 1,024) The AT controller ALSO supported 250,000 bits per second, for 300 RPM 360K drives and 300,000 bits per second, for 360K disks in the 360RPM 1.2M drive. (Many companies then came out with two speed (300RPM and 360RPM) drives, 300RPM in the 1.2M drive permitted 250,000 bits per second for 360K disks) Weltek developed a kludge o 180RPM at 250,000 bits per second. MSCDEX (drive related, but not floppy) 3.10 The "network redirector" (undocumented for a while) permitted MSCDEX to fool DOS into thinking that a CD-ROM was NOT A DRIVE ON THE MACHINE, but was, instead a remote service on a network. Attempting to CHKDSK a CD-ROM gave "Can not CHKDSK a network drive". "720K 3.5": PC-DOS 3.20 135 tracks per inch, 250,000 bits per second 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 9 SPT * 512 BPS 737,280 720K (could also be added to PC (5150), XT (5160) machines) DOS 3.20 added DRIVER.SYS that added 720K support to DOS, and DRIVPARM that changed the drive parameters without an additional driver. I can not fully explain why DRIVPARM worked with PC-DOS and MS-DOS on aftermarket ATs, but FAILED on ATs with IBM AT BIOS, with either DOS. "1.4M": PC-DOS 3.30 "High Density" 3.5" 135 tracks per inch, 500,000 bits per second 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 18 SPT * 512 BPS 1,474,560 1,440K 1.40625 MiB; 1.44 MARKETING-MEGABYTES Note that the only way that you can get 1.44 is if you define "Megabyte" to be 1,024,000 1000 * 1024 (So, yes, "1.4M" is ROUNDED) HDD >32M (not floppy) MS-DOS 3.31, PC-DOS 4.00 Note that IBM did not warn Norton in advance, so the Norton fUtilities had difficulties on PC-DOS 4.00, which was usually reported as "DOS 4 is not compatible and buggy". Most of those "bugs" went away with the next release of Norton. "2.8M" PC-DOS 4.00 1,000,000 bits per second (or could be kludged with 500,000 bits per second at 150RPM) 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 36 SPT * 512 BPS 2,949,120; 2880 K; 2.8125 MiB; 2.88 MARKETING MEGABYTES It never really caught on. "DMF": Microsoft Distribution Media Format By cheating on the intersector-gaps, Microsoft managed to get 21 sectors per track, instead of 18 on "1.4M" disks! 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 21 SPT * 512 1,720,320; 1680 K; 1.640625MiB; 1.68 MARKETING MEGABYTES Floptical, USB, and other drives that have their own firmware can't handle them. Older versions of DOS need a device driver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_Media_Format https://web.archive.org/web/20110914232540/http://support.microsoft.com/kb/120348 "XDF": IBM chose a different approach. Because the inter-sector gaps are relatively standard, you can fit more on a disk using larger sectors. Eight 1024 byte sectors will fit on a HD 3.5" track. There isn't enough room for a ninth one. But, what about bigger than 1,024? An 8K sector will fit on a track; certainly not enough room for a second one. BUT, there is enough room left for a 2K! and then enough for a 1K, and then enough for a 512 byte sector. Their driver software fooled DOS into thinking that it was seeing Twenty-three 512 byte sectors! http://www.os2museum.com/wp/the-xdf-diskette-format/ 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 23 "virtual sectors" * 512 BPS 1,884,160; 1840K; 1.796875 MiB; 1.84 MARKETING-MEGABYTES FOOTNOTES: 1) All sizes are the total size on the disk; I did not deal with [here] the space taken up by fle directory and other file system overhead. I also didn't mention that some systems used 35 of the 40 tracks, or 75 or 77 of the 80 tracks (77 tracks was the standard for 8") 2) There were other choices besides what IBM picked for bytes per sector and sectors per track. Some systems ued TEN 512 byte sectors per track. That required minimizing the gaps between sectors, which sometimes create read problems with NEC 765 type FDCs. (temporarily running the drive slightly slower than the standard 300 RPM could sometimes get a successful read). Therefore, 40 track double sided double density could be anywhere from 300K to 400K, depending on layout, NOT just 360K. Different density calls for different sensitivity or coercivity of the media. 5.25" is available in 300 and 600 Oersted. They do NOT interhange reliably! The color of the cookie is different. Some say to look for a hub ring. EARLY 5.25" did not have a hub ring, and sometimes the drive mangled the hub, so they started reinfocing the hub. By the time of 1.2M, the drives had been improved, and it was decided that hub rings weren't necessary any more. hence, a disk with a hub ring is probably a late 360K; a disk without a hub ring is either EARLY 360K, aor 1.2M. 3.5" is available with 600 or 720-750 Oersted. The difference is close enough that one can often get away with the wrong one. Both types have a write protect hole, but the 1.4M has an additional hole to indicate "high density". 2.8M also has a hole, but it is in a slightly different place. 3) MS-DOS/PC-DOS version numbers are ALWAYS a major version number, a period, then a TWO DIGIT minor version number. DOS 2.10 sees itself as DOS 2, 0Ah. YES, it is a TEN, not a ONE! 3.31 intenally is 3,1Fh. There is no version 3.3; it is internally 3.THIRTY 4) There is some confusion regarding number of tracks on drives with multiple heads, does a 720K disk have 80 tracks or 160 tracks? A work-around for that confusion is to use "CYLINDERS", or "TRACKS PER SIDE". 5) 67.5 tracks per inch 3.5 inch drives, with 40 tracks per side, EXISTED. Epson Geneve PX-8 is the only system that I am aware of that used them. 6) "Kilobyte" is widely accepted as meaning 1,024 bytes, although the 'K' prefix means 1,000 in most other contexts. "KibiByte" is one attempt to solve that. BUT, 'M' means 1,000,000 in most contexts, and [rarely] 1,000. MebiByte is the unambiguous term for 2 to the tenth power, 1,048,576 "MegaByte" has at least three definitions. 1,048,576 ("MebiByte" 2^20) 1,000,000 (which lets barketing claim more "megabytes") 1,024,000 ("MARKETING MEGABYTE" of 1,000 * 1,024 (10^3 * 2^10) 7) What does "HIGH density" mean? Was that the mental state of those that named it? In the beginning, there was FM "Frequency Modulated" - clock pulses with a '1' pulse or '0' no pulse in between. When there were multiple '1' pulses with their clock pulses in a row, there were limits to how close they could be, and therefore how fast, or how many per inch. But, SOME bit patterns didn't have any tight spaces. By finding 32 or 64 different patterns that COULD be squeezed, it was possible to choose ones to represent 5 or 6 bit patterns very tightly. With a translation table between the 8 bit values and multiple "sueezable" patterns, one could get about 40% more data in a given space; hence GCR "Group Coded Record" coding, as used on Apple and Commodore, and a few others. Going back to FM, . . . Clock pulses weren't really needed between adjacent '1' pulses. If you simply left out THOSE clock pulses, then the resulting pattern was less dense, and the stream could be squeezed (higher data transfer rate) to almost twice as much data per time or space. Hence MFM "Modified Frequency Modulation". The marketing people called that "DOUBLE DENSITY", But, it oversimplified enough that it caught on. Now that "DOUBLE DENSITY" existed, it was inevitable and soon that FM became known as "SINGLE DENSITY", even though some engineers said that FM was "half" density (one data bit for every two pulse spaces), and that MFM ought be called "single density". THUS, if you look at historical records, the term "DOUBLE DENSITY" came into being BEFORE the term "SINGLE DENSITY"! (Cf. "World War II" V "World War I" (previously "The Great War")) 8) SOME/MANY companies referred to double density with twice as many tracks (such as the 720K format) as "QUAD DENSITY". Intertec/Superbrain) used "QUAD DENSITY" to refer to double density 40 tracks per side with 2 sides. THAT certainly created confusion. But, there's MORE! When they came out with an 80 track double sided double density format, they called that "SUPER Density". Thet abbreviated that "SD", which just about everybody else used as abbreviation for "SINGLE DENSITY"! 9) In addition to squeezing ten 512 byte sectors on a track, some people even tried using additional tracks. Since there usually isn't a hard stop after track 39 (or 79), most drives could handle 41 or 42 (81 or 82) tracks. John Henderson (March/9/1944 - January/31/2017) of Tall Tree Systems created a popular program called JFORMAT to squeeze ten sectors and more tracks. He is also remembered for JRAM, some of the first expanded memory boards. "Extended" used OS modes that understood more memory; "Expanded" worked in 1M/640K by moving a block of high memory at a time into a space in the 1M address range. He was then shut out of the negotiations when Lotus/Intel/Microsoft developed their LIM/EMS standard. I remember when he came out with the JRAM boards, he asked everybody at the West Coast Computer Faire, "DO you do any software that uses lots of memory?" Not looking for a contractor for a specific project, he was trying to create a market for big memory boards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 24 17:59:22 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 15:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: IBM XDF has multiple sizes of sectors on each track! Similarly, the Ensonic Mirage got 880K on a "720K" disk by using five 1024 byte sectors plus a 512 byte one. The WD 179x type FDC can mix sector sizes, since formatting with it is an almost RAW write of a track. It is, of course, "impossible" to mix sector sizes on a track with the NEC 765 type of FDC. Since you specify the sector size and number of sectors, and then separately tell it what sector headers to write in the sectors. This brings up the Wile E. Coyote principal of software development. It is MUCH easier to do the impossible if you are unaware that it is impossible until after you do it. S'posedly, what IBM did, rataher than format using a WD FDC, was to tell the 765 that it was thirty-nine 128 byte sectors. Then, when the FDC got to writing them, it over-wrote the 128 byte sectors with sectors consistent with the sector headers that it was writing. http://www.os2museum.com/wp/the-xdf-diskette-format/ -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 24 19:12:39 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 17:12:39 -0700 Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: A very good discussion including the 2M and 2MGUI driver.The author, Ciriaco Garc?a de Celis sent me the 2M program sometime around 1994. It's interesting, and uses 82 cylinders on a DSHD drive and can come pretty near to 2M. There was also a 2MGUI (having nothing to do with graphics) version that could claim to get 2M bytes on a DSHD 3.5" drive in 82 cylinders. The way it was done was to Format one 128-byte sector per track with a length indicator of 16KB. Obviously, 16K won't fit on a track, so when writing, the drive was deselected the next time the index came around, cutting the transfer short. Actually, I think a 200 msec timer was used for the cutoff. You didn't get the sector CRC transfered, but you got what amounts to a full track of data in an odd-sized (not a power of 2) sector. Reading, of course, didn't care about the excess data. That's perhaps the most extreme case I can think of; it's discussed here: http://www.os2museum.com/wp/floppy-capacity-math/ No way I would ever trust this for archival purposes--and I replied to the author the same way. Heck, I wouldn't trust writing on cylinders 80,81, given the quality of DSHD media. All of this was academic after a bit as Zip, Jaz, Sparq, etc. external drives became very common. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Sat Jul 24 20:20:58 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 11:20:58 +1000 Subject: LCM Accounts? In-Reply-To: <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> References: <28A0AE9A-3BD5-44B0-88FF-93A7E2F16D4B@avanthar.com> <174839FF-ACC3-4DCB-97C8-D004CB3D3174@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <0843f0e66880dfc2c608d72ad86b831a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Zane said > The systems aren?t shutdown, I was able to connect to it, I just can?t log on. I never bothered to get accounts on any of the systems. I had a VMS account on their VAX 11/785 (ROSIE) a few years ago, but didn't use it much, and according to the note I had made in my password manager at that time they expire general access accounts after 90 days inactivity. Presumably policy that still holds. Steve. From doc at vaxen.net Sat Jul 24 22:30:17 2021 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 22:30:17 -0500 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> On 7/23/21 18:35, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/23/21 2:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Some further questions BELOW to complete the distribution media database: > > }:-) > >> 1) Which ones were available on 5.25"?? (and how many disks?) >> ?????A) "360K"? >> ?????B) "1.2M"? >> ?????C) "1.4M"? >> ?????D) Microsoft non-standard crammed 3.5" HD? (1.7M?) > > Ugh ... I don't know and I don't have a good way to differentiate my > disk images. > >> First CD-ROM install media that I got was Windows 3.00, but it was an >> inclusion on a "tools" collection CD-ROM? (not quite a shovel-ware). >> Then a Multi-Language 3.00 CD-ROM from Microsoft (for international >> market) > > I would like to know more about, or better find a copy, of such a CD-ROM. > > I do wish that I could do an install of MS-DOS 6.22, CD-ROM driver + > MSCDExec, DOSidle, and Windows 3.x on a CD-ROM for simplifying > installations in virtual machines. > > I've not yet figured out how to put all of the install files for MS-DOS > 6.22 in one directory, boot and do the install.? My minimal passes at > doing so don't work as well as I want or get stuck wanting to change the > disk based on the disk label. > >> 3.10 Windows CD-ROM from Microsoft > > Interesting. > >> When did MS-DOS come on CD-ROM?? Or did it? I have an ISO image labeled "OEM Adaptation Kit" that contains v6.22 (I think? 6.x at any rate). As far as I know the OAKs are the only Microsoft DOS CDs, and I expect that's your best bet for making a single-directory install image. The "wildman" v6.22 CD-ROM boots and installs MS-DOS, iirc with some options like installing mscdexe, etc. Totally off the MS reservation, but it was pretty well documented, and all the MS files passed checksum testing. It ought to be simple enough to add Windows to that. I have a Dell CD with DOS 6 and Windows 3.1 on it, but I don't think it's bootable. I also don't remember the directory structure. Windows 95 on 3.5" 1.44M floppy is 28 disks. I had 98 on 3.5" floppy but I don't remember disk count or format. Pretty sure I still have my backup copy of 95, and pretty sure I don't have 98 anymore. They were both MS releases, not OEM. And finally, slightly OT, I remember buying an IBM-branded box set of PC-DOS 6.0 and Windows 3-something *on CD* with a boot floppy. I was very new with non-OEM hardware and clean installs, so when my computer freaked out about a "virus is trying to alter the boot sectors!!!!" *I* freaked out, took it back to the store and chewed them out for selling malware. I still occasionally kick myself for letting that go, and chuckle at myself over the tirade I delivered. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 24 23:26:57 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 21:26:57 -0700 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> My recollection of the DMF Microsoft period was that if you purchased a retail MS product using the DMF format and couldn't get it read on your system, a call to MS would result in a standard format copy being shipped. If I look at the source for CopyQM, I note that in the later versions, I do detect the DMF disks and will format and copy them accordingly. --Chuck From jncordoba at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 05:58:11 2021 From: jncordoba at gmail.com (Javier N. Cordoba) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 07:58:11 -0300 Subject: Anyone have any hardware docs on a Hyundai Super LT-3 80286 laptop? Message-ID: Hi there guys!! I modded the battery with an external 2032 and now is booting fine. The HDD on my machine is an ALPS DRPO 20MB there is not info available about this HDD. Did you find or have any luck with this machine ? From george.rachor at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 19:34:08 2021 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 17:34:08 -0700 Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <8F81C4B7-C7CA-45E7-BAAC-103800B96E74@gmail.com> Was working for Intel in 1985 and bought their system 310 (x286) with 512K of RAM and that whopping 20 Mbyte Hard drive. Xenix was offered and came on 21 5.25 inch floppies. George Rachor > On Jul 24, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > A very good discussion including the 2M and 2MGUI driver.The author, > Ciriaco Garc?a de Celis sent me the 2M program sometime around 1994. > > It's interesting, and uses 82 cylinders on a DSHD drive and can come > pretty near to 2M. > > There was also a 2MGUI (having nothing to do with graphics) version that > could claim to get 2M bytes on a DSHD 3.5" drive in 82 cylinders. The > way it was done was to Format one 128-byte sector per track with a > length indicator of 16KB. Obviously, 16K won't fit on a track, so when > writing, the drive was deselected the next time the index came around, > cutting the transfer short. Actually, I think a 200 msec timer was used > for the cutoff. You didn't get the sector CRC transfered, but you got > what amounts to a full track of data in an odd-sized (not a power of 2) > sector. Reading, of course, didn't care about the excess data. > > That's perhaps the most extreme case I can think of; it's discussed here: > > http://www.os2museum.com/wp/floppy-capacity-math/ > > No way I would ever trust this for archival purposes--and I replied to > the author the same way. Heck, I wouldn't trust writing on cylinders > 80,81, given the quality of DSHD media. > > All of this was academic after a bit as Zip, Jaz, Sparq, etc. external > drives became very common. > > --Chuck > > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jul 25 08:43:42 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 09:43:42 -0400 Subject: Multi-Micro-Channel bus systems, and thoughts on the Computer Society Digital Library. Message-ID: <6e67f080-d395-db3a-9430-ee0114e2f44f@alembic.crystel.com> Read that Personal Systems magazine from 1992 that was recently posted and enjoyed the article on the PS/2 295 system. I never heard about that one, the biggest PS/2's I worked on were the 95 systems with 486 processors back at Covington. One thing that popped out: The 295 was a multi-processor-ish system with two MCA busses. Granted they were decoupled with each processor having its own MCA bus but it got me to thinking: Were there other systems of that time that could use two MicroChannel busses? I know of one: Back when I first started working at the IEEE Computer Society in 1993 they had a donated NCR 3550 system. Big box, mainframe sized with 4 486/50 CPUs in it and an MCA backplane. As I recall AT&T donated it to the CS but no one had a clue what to do with it. It ran NCR Unix which wasn't interesting but when we started putting together the first E-Commerce systems in 1994 I decided to use it with Windows NT. Oddly enough it could run NT 3.51 (and later NT 4 with a HAL) and we put it online with Netscape Commerce server. Ran great and just like that we were doing E-Commerce for SuperComputing/95 registrations. :-) Later we started building the Digital E-Library on it. We needed a system that could do a lot of SGML-HTML conversions quickly as well as render TEK Math to .gif in real time. So we upgraded the 3550 with 8 (later a total of 16) Pentium Pro CPUs and a second Microchannel bus. We split the disks up with 2 4 port SCSI adapters on each bus along with a network port each and balanced RAID1 and RAID5 disks across the channels on both busses. Worked surprisingly well and allowed us to load all of the CS periodicals on the system along with a big Lotus Notes server implementation to run the commerce software and store the E-Accounts (still in use today!). The E-commerce system allowed people to renew their memberships with credit cards, and of course add subscriptions both in paper and on-line with instant access once the credit card was charged. For mid-1990's timeframes this was pretty advanced stuff. Later when we composted PDFs we put those on there as well with the Article shopping cart so people could buy articles individually. Boy, people liked that a LOT. We did experiment with a digital credit system so people could buy points and use those to buy articles but I could never figure out how to make it tamper proof. Satoshi figured that one out a decade later, I wish I had thought of the checksum chain idea.... Oh well. But the big point: Running two MCA busses on a SMP based multiprocessor system was quite possible and do-able at scale, however did any other company make a dual MCA bus system? I always found it impressive that Windows supported even that stretch of a configuration (seeing 16 Pentium Pro CPUs running together as people hit the digital library en masse was *neat*) but I don't recall any other systems that did it. Thoughts? From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 09:24:55 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 07:24:55 -0700 Subject: Multi-Micro-Channel bus systems, and thoughts on the Computer Society Digital Library. In-Reply-To: <6e67f080-d395-db3a-9430-ee0114e2f44f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <6e67f080-d395-db3a-9430-ee0114e2f44f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 6:43 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Read that Personal Systems magazine from 1992 that was recently posted > and enjoyed the article on the PS/2 295 system. I never heard about that > one, the biggest PS/2's I worked on were the 95 systems with 486 > processors back at Covington. > > One thing that popped out: The 295 was a multi-processor-ish system with > two MCA busses. Granted they were decoupled with each processor having > its own MCA bus but it got me to thinking: Were there other systems of > that time that could use two MicroChannel busses? > 7013-595 IBM RS/6000 Deskside Server Model 595, Announced 1996/10/08, Available 1996/11/08 Model Abstract 7013-595 The IBM* RS/6000 Model 595 deskside server is a powerful uniprocessor that is based on the POWER2 Super Chip (P2SC) implementation of the POWER Architecture*. The Model 595 differs from predecessors by offering high-performance, dual Micro Channel* buses. Each bus is used to generate four Micro Channel slots and supports the high-speed, data streaming protocol. > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 10:47:37 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 10:47:37 -0500 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <0e85b7b5-4de1-bf98-e096-145bc1376122@sydex.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <2de75d68-61e7-b49d-48f2-9f3729d62232@gmail.com> <0e85b7b5-4de1-bf98-e096-145bc1376122@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8a3c8482-81ca-4f5b-29ec-3e1baba7588e@gmail.com> On 7/21/21 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/21/21 8:19 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> IIRC the original capacity ceiling on IDE was 504MB or something, so I >> think the capacity of a CD (~650MB) would make a strictly IDE CD drive >> impossible...? >> >> I can't think of anything other than the Bigfoot, no. I didn't know >> Compaq favoured them, though... > > CDC/Imprimis certainly had ATA half-height 5.25 drives in their Wren II > line--I used them. e.g. 94204 series. With odd timing, a photo of a 5.25" "half height" IDE drive made by Gigastorage just popped up in one of my Facebook vintage groups. Adaptec appear to have made the main logic ICs on the interface board. It appears difficult to find any information on the company, other than a WSJ article hidden behind a paywall which seems to suggest that shenaningans were afoot. Jules From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jul 25 12:46:17 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 11:46:17 -0600 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/24/21 10:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > My recollection of the DMF Microsoft period was that if you purchased > a retail MS product using the DMF format and couldn't get it read > on your system, a call to MS would result in a standard format copy > being shipped. It's my understanding that The DMF disks that Microsoft (and comparable from IBM with PC-DOS) used a different non-FAT file system which took up less space on the disk, thus yielding more storage for data. But that they both fit on the same /standard/ ""1.44 MB disks. I also seem to recall that Macintosh's could get 1.7 MB on the same ""1.44 MB disks. But I could be completely wrong. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 25 14:14:52 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 12:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> My recollection of the DMF Microsoft period was that if you purchased a >> retail MS product using the DMF format and couldn't get it read on your >> system, a call to MS would result in a standard format copy being shipped. On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > It's my understanding that The DMF disks that Microsoft (and comparable from > IBM with PC-DOS) used a different non-FAT file system which took up less > space on the disk, thus yielding more storage for data. But that they both > fit on the same /standard/ ""1.44 MB disks. > I also seem to recall that Macintosh's could get 1.7 MB on the same ""1.44 MB > disks. > But I could be completely wrong. Using a more efficient file directory system isn't a bad idea. But, it won't gain enough additional, just one or two tracks. But, no, that's not what they did. The Microsoft DMF is a normal FAT system! They just cheated on the "standards" for the intersector gaps to get 21 sectors per track, instead of the "normal" 18 sectors per track. MOST?, probably not ALL, of the Macintosh 1.4M hardware is similar enough that, with the right software ("drivers"), it can do the same, and read/write the Microsoft DMF format. The IBM XDF format is weirder. It is based primarily on mixing different sector sizes on the same track. Although read and write are not an issue, It is "impossible" to FORMAT disks that way with the NEC 765 type FDC on the PC, but there are ways to cheat and fool it into doing it. I don't know whether the Macintosh disk controllers can handle it. Neither the DMF nor the XDF can be read or written with virtually any USB drive, or many other special drives, such as Floptical or LS100, because those drives have firmware that is locked in to the "normal" format. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 25 15:50:05 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTGH for pickup in So Cal v2: Macs, Atari ST, various hardware Message-ID: <202107252050.16PKo5io18153544@floodgap.com> The PDP-11, VT100, Flyer/Video Toaster and some of the Macs have found homes, but there are still some items left and a couple more I added. These will be going to the recycler soon unless they are spoken for (all free to good homes). I may be adding some others, too. As before items are at various locations in Riverside-San Bernardino, CA. Please contact me OFFLIST to arrange PICKUP. POSSIBLY WORKING: Mega ST4 with Megafile 60 and SC1224 and SM125 monitors. These are a bit yellowed and the keyboard is thrashed. Also, the TOS is on a separate card with two leads that got loose and I don't know where they go (probably to +Vcc and a select pin). Thus, can't test the monitors or the hard disk, but the system does power on, and the hard disk does power up and makes happy hard disk noises. No idea what's on it. The SM125 puts on a power light and does appear to try to make a picture, though its previous owner separated it from its stand for some reason. The SC1224 sounds like the flyback is bad but may be serviceable. Includes ST mouse and hard disk cable. No manuals or software. If you want this unit, you need to take everything including the monitors. PARTIALLY WORKING: 500MHz iBook G3 laptop (snow, not colour) M6497 with tray loader optical drive and power supply. Does boot OS X, but needs a new LCD backlight (mini VGA port works and you can see the display in bright light) and battery is of course toast. Otherwise physically intact except that ex-bro-in-law put grotty stickers on it. PARTIALLY WORKING: Quad G5 2.5GHz x2x2, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 6600. Got whacked in shipping and one side of the case is damaged. No hard disk. Does power on but you will need to service the processors and the liquid cooling system. Aftermarket optical drive needs "help" when you eject it. Add your own USB keyboard and mouse. PARTIALLY WORKING: Sawtooth Power Mac G4 450MHz. No RAM, no video card, no hard disk. Used to be my file server but had issues with one of the PCI slots. Has optical drive and ZIP with matching Apple bezels. Does power on, but obviously without RAM or a video card (AGP) will not pass POST. Add your own USB keyboard and mouse. NOT WORKING: Single G5 1.8GHz, 2GB RAM, GeForce 5200. The previous owner seemed to have had a disagreement with the front panel connector and the front panel connector lost. I received it stripped to the chassis except for the processor and the logic board, but it does have the fans, video card, wireless (with T-antenna), power supply and panel cable. Because the front panel connector is busted I can't test it. You get to replace the front panel assembly and put it back together. This unit is air-cooled, but probably could benefit from reapplying thermal compound while you're at it. Has optical drive (disconnected), no hard disk, add your own USB keyboard and mouse. Various other items: Apple II Super Serial card with DB-25 670-0020-? (uses 6551 ACIA) and Apple IIe 80 column 64K memory expansion 607-0103-K. Can't test them but both look intact. Kurta Penmouse. Serial and PS/2 connectors. Seems to have a power supply jack (9V) but I don't have the power supply and I don't know if it needs it. Can't test it, no drivers, physically intact. Sun model 411 SCSI CD-ROM. Requires caddy. Won't mount discs, might need a recap. Samsung 17" SyncMaster CRT. Works fine, great shape, just too big to keep around anymore. UMAX Astra 2100U flatbed USB scanner with power supply. Powers on. Works with classic Mac OS but probably most systems. No driver disc. Pair of Telular SX5 GSM terminals. These were the server room's backup communication system. They work, but no GSM network to connect to anymore. Might be fun if you set one up. Real serial ports! Real GSM modem! Full kits with power supply. Visual UpTime Select T1 CSU/DSU. Has a Cisco V.35 cable connected and jacks for Ethernet, serial, DSX-1 and T1. Powers on, obviously goes right into Red Alarm since there's no network. You telco nerds will love it. Adaptec AHA-1542CF ISA SCSI card. I don't have a system to put this in. Looks fine, might work. No software or drivers. ATI PCI Rage XL card, VGA DE-15 port. Likely for PC, doesn't seem to have a Mac ROM. Good condition. No drivers. Diamond ATI Radeon HD 6450 PCIe card with DVI, VGA, HDMI. Has manual, no drivers. Good condition. Various complete external modem packages ranging from 14.4 to 33.6K. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Man fears Time, yet Time fears the Pyramids. -- Arab proverb --------------- From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 20:16:53 2021 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 01:16:53 +0000 Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> , Message-ID: LOT'S OF GOOD INFORMATION HERE! I am keeping this one Fred, and thank you. ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 3:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 10:41 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Maybe someone who is more versed in the possible disk sizes and more >> accurate (non-rounded) count. I'm extremely foggy when it comes to >> 5-1/4 inch disk capacities. 720 kB and 1.44 MB disks I can deal with. >> But the minutia between 320 kB and 360 kB, combined with rounded >> measurements, things get foggy for me. OK, I am going to take a chance that you, or others here, want to know more about it. The sizes that would be used were: 360K 1.2M 1.4M DMF 1.64M XDF 1.8M TLDR: Other PC formats: "160K" 5.25": August 1981, the 5150 ("PC") was released with 5.25" "industry standard" Tandon TM100-1 drives. IBM was not ready to use double sided. DOS 1.00 300 RPM, 48 Tracks Per inch, 250,000 bits per second 1 side, 40 tracks, 8 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector 163,840 160K Please note: This is not "rounded", it is based on K meaning Kibibyte of 1024 bytes. "320K": DOS 1.10 Same, but double sided. 2 sides * 40 cylinders (trackse per side) * 8 Sectors per track * 512 BPS 327,680 320K "180K": DOS 2.00 Change from 8 sectors pr track to 9 sectors per track. Single sided version: 1 side * 40 tracks * 9 SPT * 512 BPS 184,320 180K "360K": Same but double sided. 2 sides * 40 cylinders * 9 SPT * 512 BPS 368,640 360K Some software distribution continued to be on 180K, to allow for customers who still used single sided drives. "720K" 5.25": NON-USA PC-DOS 2.10 IBM PC-JX (not sold in USA) had an 80 track per side 5.25" drive (what some CP/M companies called "Quad Density") "720K": MS-DOS 2.11 OEM versions of MS-DOS were sometimes provided with 720K support, primarily companies that had implemented 3.5" drives, such as Gavilan, Zenith, Data General, etc. They did not all use the same numbers of sectors in the file system overhead. For example, Gavilan, when switching from 2.11J to 2.11K changed to be compatible with the later IBM 3.5" format. "1.2M"/"HD 5.25": PC-DOS 3.00 IBM PC/AT (5170) supported a "High Density" 5.25" 96 tracks per inch, 360 RPM 500,000; bits per second. 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 15 SPT * 512 BPS 1,228,800 1,200K 1.17MiB 1.2 MARKETING-MEGABYTES (1,000 * 1,024) The AT controller ALSO supported 250,000 bits per second, for 300 RPM 360K drives and 300,000 bits per second, for 360K disks in the 360RPM 1.2M drive. (Many companies then came out with two speed (300RPM and 360RPM) drives, 300RPM in the 1.2M drive permitted 250,000 bits per second for 360K disks) Weltek developed a kludge o 180RPM at 250,000 bits per second. MSCDEX (drive related, but not floppy) 3.10 The "network redirector" (undocumented for a while) permitted MSCDEX to fool DOS into thinking that a CD-ROM was NOT A DRIVE ON THE MACHINE, but was, instead a remote service on a network. Attempting to CHKDSK a CD-ROM gave "Can not CHKDSK a network drive". "720K 3.5": PC-DOS 3.20 135 tracks per inch, 250,000 bits per second 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 9 SPT * 512 BPS 737,280 720K (could also be added to PC (5150), XT (5160) machines) DOS 3.20 added DRIVER.SYS that added 720K support to DOS, and DRIVPARM that changed the drive parameters without an additional driver. I can not fully explain why DRIVPARM worked with PC-DOS and MS-DOS on aftermarket ATs, but FAILED on ATs with IBM AT BIOS, with either DOS. "1.4M": PC-DOS 3.30 "High Density" 3.5" 135 tracks per inch, 500,000 bits per second 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 18 SPT * 512 BPS 1,474,560 1,440K 1.40625 MiB; 1.44 MARKETING-MEGABYTES Note that the only way that you can get 1.44 is if you define "Megabyte" to be 1,024,000 1000 * 1024 (So, yes, "1.4M" is ROUNDED) HDD >32M (not floppy) MS-DOS 3.31, PC-DOS 4.00 Note that IBM did not warn Norton in advance, so the Norton fUtilities had difficulties on PC-DOS 4.00, which was usually reported as "DOS 4 is not compatible and buggy". Most of those "bugs" went away with the next release of Norton. "2.8M" PC-DOS 4.00 1,000,000 bits per second (or could be kludged with 500,000 bits per second at 150RPM) 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 36 SPT * 512 BPS 2,949,120; 2880 K; 2.8125 MiB; 2.88 MARKETING MEGABYTES It never really caught on. "DMF": Microsoft Distribution Media Format By cheating on the intersector-gaps, Microsoft managed to get 21 sectors per track, instead of 18 on "1.4M" disks! 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 21 SPT * 512 1,720,320; 1680 K; 1.640625MiB; 1.68 MARKETING MEGABYTES Floptical, USB, and other drives that have their own firmware can't handle them. Older versions of DOS need a device driver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_Media_Format https://web.archive.org/web/20110914232540/http://support.microsoft.com/kb/120348 "XDF": IBM chose a different approach. Because the inter-sector gaps are relatively standard, you can fit more on a disk using larger sectors. Eight 1024 byte sectors will fit on a HD 3.5" track. There isn't enough room for a ninth one. But, what about bigger than 1,024? An 8K sector will fit on a track; certainly not enough room for a second one. BUT, there is enough room left for a 2K! and then enough for a 1K, and then enough for a 512 byte sector. Their driver software fooled DOS into thinking that it was seeing Twenty-three 512 byte sectors! http://www.os2museum.com/wp/the-xdf-diskette-format/ 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 23 "virtual sectors" * 512 BPS 1,884,160; 1840K; 1.796875 MiB; 1.84 MARKETING-MEGABYTES FOOTNOTES: 1) All sizes are the total size on the disk; I did not deal with [here] the space taken up by fle directory and other file system overhead. I also didn't mention that some systems used 35 of the 40 tracks, or 75 or 77 of the 80 tracks (77 tracks was the standard for 8") 2) There were other choices besides what IBM picked for bytes per sector and sectors per track. Some systems ued TEN 512 byte sectors per track. That required minimizing the gaps between sectors, which sometimes create read problems with NEC 765 type FDCs. (temporarily running the drive slightly slower than the standard 300 RPM could sometimes get a successful read). Therefore, 40 track double sided double density could be anywhere from 300K to 400K, depending on layout, NOT just 360K. Different density calls for different sensitivity or coercivity of the media. 5.25" is available in 300 and 600 Oersted. They do NOT interhange reliably! The color of the cookie is different. Some say to look for a hub ring. EARLY 5.25" did not have a hub ring, and sometimes the drive mangled the hub, so they started reinfocing the hub. By the time of 1.2M, the drives had been improved, and it was decided that hub rings weren't necessary any more. hence, a disk with a hub ring is probably a late 360K; a disk without a hub ring is either EARLY 360K, aor 1.2M. 3.5" is available with 600 or 720-750 Oersted. The difference is close enough that one can often get away with the wrong one. Both types have a write protect hole, but the 1.4M has an additional hole to indicate "high density". 2.8M also has a hole, but it is in a slightly different place. 3) MS-DOS/PC-DOS version numbers are ALWAYS a major version number, a period, then a TWO DIGIT minor version number. DOS 2.10 sees itself as DOS 2, 0Ah. YES, it is a TEN, not a ONE! 3.31 intenally is 3,1Fh. There is no version 3.3; it is internally 3.THIRTY 4) There is some confusion regarding number of tracks on drives with multiple heads, does a 720K disk have 80 tracks or 160 tracks? A work-around for that confusion is to use "CYLINDERS", or "TRACKS PER SIDE". 5) 67.5 tracks per inch 3.5 inch drives, with 40 tracks per side, EXISTED. Epson Geneve PX-8 is the only system that I am aware of that used them. 6) "Kilobyte" is widely accepted as meaning 1,024 bytes, although the 'K' prefix means 1,000 in most other contexts. "KibiByte" is one attempt to solve that. BUT, 'M' means 1,000,000 in most contexts, and [rarely] 1,000. MebiByte is the unambiguous term for 2 to the tenth power, 1,048,576 "MegaByte" has at least three definitions. 1,048,576 ("MebiByte" 2^20) 1,000,000 (which lets barketing claim more "megabytes") 1,024,000 ("MARKETING MEGABYTE" of 1,000 * 1,024 (10^3 * 2^10) 7) What does "HIGH density" mean? Was that the mental state of those that named it? In the beginning, there was FM "Frequency Modulated" - clock pulses with a '1' pulse or '0' no pulse in between. When there were multiple '1' pulses with their clock pulses in a row, there were limits to how close they could be, and therefore how fast, or how many per inch. But, SOME bit patterns didn't have any tight spaces. By finding 32 or 64 different patterns that COULD be squeezed, it was possible to choose ones to represent 5 or 6 bit patterns very tightly. With a translation table between the 8 bit values and multiple "sueezable" patterns, one could get about 40% more data in a given space; hence GCR "Group Coded Record" coding, as used on Apple and Commodore, and a few others. Going back to FM, . . . Clock pulses weren't really needed between adjacent '1' pulses. If you simply left out THOSE clock pulses, then the resulting pattern was less dense, and the stream could be squeezed (higher data transfer rate) to almost twice as much data per time or space. Hence MFM "Modified Frequency Modulation". The marketing people called that "DOUBLE DENSITY", But, it oversimplified enough that it caught on. Now that "DOUBLE DENSITY" existed, it was inevitable and soon that FM became known as "SINGLE DENSITY", even though some engineers said that FM was "half" density (one data bit for every two pulse spaces), and that MFM ought be called "single density". THUS, if you look at historical records, the term "DOUBLE DENSITY" came into being BEFORE the term "SINGLE DENSITY"! (Cf. "World War II" V "World War I" (previously "The Great War")) 8) SOME/MANY companies referred to double density with twice as many tracks (such as the 720K format) as "QUAD DENSITY". Intertec/Superbrain) used "QUAD DENSITY" to refer to double density 40 tracks per side with 2 sides. THAT certainly created confusion. But, there's MORE! When they came out with an 80 track double sided double density format, they called that "SUPER Density". Thet abbreviated that "SD", which just about everybody else used as abbreviation for "SINGLE DENSITY"! 9) In addition to squeezing ten 512 byte sectors on a track, some people even tried using additional tracks. Since there usually isn't a hard stop after track 39 (or 79), most drives could handle 41 or 42 (81 or 82) tracks. John Henderson (March/9/1944 - January/31/2017) of Tall Tree Systems created a popular program called JFORMAT to squeeze ten sectors and more tracks. He is also remembered for JRAM, some of the first expanded memory boards. "Extended" used OS modes that understood more memory; "Expanded" worked in 1M/640K by moving a block of high memory at a time into a space in the 1M address range. He was then shut out of the negotiations when Lotus/Intel/Microsoft developed their LIM/EMS standard. I remember when he came out with the JRAM boards, he asked everybody at the West Coast Computer Faire, "DO you do any software that uses lots of memory?" Not looking for a contractor for a specific project, he was trying to create a market for big memory boards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 25 20:32:25 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> , Message-ID: Thank you. I'm pleased that there is stillsome interest. There might be some typos in that. So, I'd especially be grateful if Chuck or ARD, or anybody else, let me know what could be fixed or improved. None of the content is current. It's mostly just a recap off of the top of my head of one of the lectures that I gave in my disk operating system class, back when all of those formats were active and common. I also drew bit patterns on the board and explained FM, MFM, GCR. And I also went into considerable length to make sure that everybody in the class throughly understood the head width problem for RE-writing sectors of 360K disks in a 1.2M drive, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Mon, 26 Jul 2021, Randy Dawson wrote: > LOT'S OF GOOD INFORMATION HERE! > > I am keeping this one Fred, and thank you. > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 3:27 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Distribution floppies (Was: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) > >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 10:41 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> Maybe someone who is more versed in the possible disk sizes and more >>> accurate (non-rounded) count. I'm extremely foggy when it comes to >>> 5-1/4 inch disk capacities. 720 kB and 1.44 MB disks I can deal with. >>> But the minutia between 320 kB and 360 kB, combined with rounded >>> measurements, things get foggy for me. > > OK, I am going to take a chance that you, or others here, want to > know more about it. > > The sizes that would be used were: > 360K > 1.2M > 1.4M > DMF 1.64M > XDF 1.8M > > > TLDR: > Other PC formats: > > "160K" 5.25": > August 1981, the 5150 ("PC") was released with 5.25" "industry > standard" Tandon TM100-1 drives. IBM was not ready to use double sided. > DOS 1.00 > 300 RPM, 48 Tracks Per inch, 250,000 bits per second > 1 side, 40 tracks, 8 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector > 163,840 160K > Please note: This is not "rounded", it is based on K meaning Kibibyte of > 1024 bytes. > > "320K": > DOS 1.10 > Same, but double sided. > 2 sides * 40 cylinders (trackse per side) * 8 Sectors per track * 512 BPS > 327,680 320K > > "180K": > DOS 2.00 > Change from 8 sectors pr track to 9 sectors per track. > Single sided version: > 1 side * 40 tracks * 9 SPT * 512 BPS > 184,320 180K > > "360K": > Same but double sided. > 2 sides * 40 cylinders * 9 SPT * 512 BPS > 368,640 360K > > Some software distribution continued to be on 180K, to allow for customers > who still used single sided drives. > > "720K" 5.25": > NON-USA PC-DOS 2.10 > IBM PC-JX (not sold in USA) had an 80 track per side 5.25" drive (what > some CP/M companies called "Quad Density") > > "720K": > MS-DOS 2.11 > OEM versions of MS-DOS were sometimes provided with 720K support, > primarily companies that had implemented 3.5" drives, such as Gavilan, > Zenith, Data General, etc. They did not all use the same numbers of > sectors in the file system overhead. For example, Gavilan, when switching > from 2.11J to 2.11K changed to be compatible with the later IBM 3.5" > format. > > "1.2M"/"HD 5.25": > PC-DOS 3.00 > IBM PC/AT (5170) supported a "High Density" 5.25" > 96 tracks per inch, 360 RPM 500,000; bits per second. > 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 15 SPT * 512 BPS > 1,228,800 1,200K 1.17MiB 1.2 MARKETING-MEGABYTES (1,000 * 1,024) > The AT controller ALSO supported > 250,000 bits per second, for 300 RPM 360K drives and > 300,000 bits per second, for 360K disks in the 360RPM 1.2M drive. > (Many companies then came out with two speed (300RPM and 360RPM) drives, > 300RPM in the 1.2M drive permitted 250,000 bits per second for 360K disks) > Weltek developed a kludge o 180RPM at 250,000 bits per second. > > > MSCDEX (drive related, but not floppy) > 3.10 > The "network redirector" (undocumented for a while) permitted MSCDEX to > fool DOS into thinking that a CD-ROM was NOT A DRIVE ON THE MACHINE, but > was, instead a remote service on a network. Attempting to CHKDSK a > CD-ROM gave "Can not CHKDSK a network drive". > > > "720K 3.5": > PC-DOS 3.20 > 135 tracks per inch, 250,000 bits per second > 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 9 SPT * 512 BPS > 737,280 720K > (could also be added to PC (5150), XT (5160) machines) > DOS 3.20 added DRIVER.SYS that added 720K support to DOS, and DRIVPARM > that changed the drive parameters without an additional driver. > I can not fully explain why DRIVPARM worked with PC-DOS and MS-DOS on > aftermarket ATs, but FAILED on ATs with IBM AT BIOS, with either DOS. > > "1.4M": > PC-DOS 3.30 > "High Density" 3.5" > 135 tracks per inch, 500,000 bits per second > 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 18 SPT * 512 BPS > 1,474,560 1,440K 1.40625 MiB; 1.44 MARKETING-MEGABYTES > Note that the only way that you can get 1.44 is if you define "Megabyte" > to be 1,024,000 1000 * 1024 > (So, yes, "1.4M" is ROUNDED) > > > HDD >32M (not floppy) > MS-DOS 3.31, PC-DOS 4.00 > Note that IBM did not warn Norton in advance, so the Norton fUtilities had > difficulties on PC-DOS 4.00, which was usually reported as "DOS 4 is not > compatible and buggy". Most of those "bugs" went away with the next > release of Norton. > > > "2.8M" > PC-DOS 4.00 > 1,000,000 bits per second (or could be kludged with 500,000 bits per > second at 150RPM) > 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 36 SPT * 512 BPS > 2,949,120; 2880 K; 2.8125 MiB; 2.88 MARKETING MEGABYTES > It never really caught on. > > > "DMF": > Microsoft Distribution Media Format > By cheating on the intersector-gaps, Microsoft managed to get 21 sectors > per track, instead of 18 on "1.4M" disks! > 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 21 SPT * 512 > 1,720,320; 1680 K; 1.640625MiB; 1.68 MARKETING MEGABYTES > Floptical, USB, and other drives that have their own firmware can't handle > them. Older versions of DOS need a device driver. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_Media_Format > https://web.archive.org/web/20110914232540/http://support.microsoft.com/kb/120348 > > > "XDF": > IBM chose a different approach. Because the inter-sector gaps are > relatively standard, you can fit more on a disk using larger sectors. > Eight 1024 byte sectors will fit on a HD 3.5" track. There isn't enough > room for a ninth one. > But, what about bigger than 1,024? > An 8K sector will fit on a track; certainly not enough room for a second > one. BUT, there is enough room left for a 2K! and then enough for a 1K, > and then enough for a 512 byte sector. > Their driver software fooled DOS into thinking that it was seeing > Twenty-three 512 byte sectors! > http://www.os2museum.com/wp/the-xdf-diskette-format/ > 2 sides * 80 cylinders * 23 "virtual sectors" * 512 BPS > 1,884,160; 1840K; 1.796875 MiB; 1.84 MARKETING-MEGABYTES > > > > FOOTNOTES: > 1) All sizes are the total size on the disk; I did not deal with > [here] the space taken up by fle directory and other file system overhead. > I also didn't mention that some systems used 35 of the 40 tracks, or 75 or > 77 of the 80 tracks (77 tracks was the standard for 8") > > 2) There were other choices besides what IBM picked for bytes per sector > and sectors per track. Some systems ued TEN 512 byte sectors per track. > That required minimizing the gaps between sectors, which sometimes create > read problems with NEC 765 type FDCs. (temporarily running the drive > slightly slower than the standard 300 RPM could sometimes get a successful > read). Therefore, 40 track double sided double density could be anywhere > from 300K to 400K, depending on layout, NOT just 360K. > Different density calls for different sensitivity or coercivity of the > media. 5.25" is available in 300 and 600 Oersted. They do NOT > interhange reliably! The color of the cookie is different. Some say to > look for a hub ring. EARLY 5.25" did not have a hub ring, and sometimes > the drive mangled the hub, so they started reinfocing the hub. By the > time of 1.2M, the drives had been improved, and it was decided that hub > rings weren't necessary any more. hence, a disk with a hub ring is > probably a late 360K; a disk without a hub ring is either EARLY 360K, aor > 1.2M. > 3.5" is available with 600 or 720-750 Oersted. The difference is close > enough that one can often get away with the wrong one. Both types have a > write protect hole, but the 1.4M has an additional hole to indicate "high > density". 2.8M also has a hole, but it is in a slightly different place. > > 3) MS-DOS/PC-DOS version numbers are ALWAYS a major version number, a > period, then a TWO DIGIT minor version number. DOS 2.10 sees itself as > DOS 2, 0Ah. YES, it is a TEN, not a ONE! 3.31 intenally is 3,1Fh. > There is no version 3.3; it is internally 3.THIRTY > > 4) There is some confusion regarding number of tracks on drives with > multiple heads, does a 720K disk have 80 tracks or 160 tracks? A > work-around for that confusion is to use "CYLINDERS", or "TRACKS PER SIDE". > > 5) 67.5 tracks per inch 3.5 inch drives, with 40 tracks per side, EXISTED. > Epson Geneve PX-8 is the only system that I am aware of that used them. > > 6) "Kilobyte" is widely accepted as meaning 1,024 bytes, although the 'K' > prefix means 1,000 in most other contexts. "KibiByte" is one attempt to > solve that. > BUT, 'M' means 1,000,000 in most contexts, and [rarely] 1,000. > MebiByte is the unambiguous term for 2 to the tenth power, 1,048,576 > "MegaByte" has at least three definitions. > 1,048,576 ("MebiByte" 2^20) > 1,000,000 (which lets barketing claim more "megabytes") > 1,024,000 ("MARKETING MEGABYTE" of 1,000 * 1,024 (10^3 * 2^10) > > 7) What does "HIGH density" mean? Was that the mental state of those that > named it? > In the beginning, there was FM "Frequency Modulated" - clock pulses with a > '1' pulse or '0' no pulse in between. > When there were multiple '1' pulses with their clock pulses in a row, > there were limits to how close they could be, and therefore how fast, or > how many per inch. > But, SOME bit patterns didn't have any tight spaces. By finding 32 or 64 > different patterns that COULD be squeezed, it was possible to choose > ones to represent 5 or 6 bit patterns very tightly. With a translation > table between the 8 bit values and multiple "sueezable" patterns, one > could get about 40% more data in a given space; hence GCR "Group Coded > Record" coding, as used on Apple and Commodore, and a few others. > Going back to FM, . . . > Clock pulses weren't really needed between adjacent '1' pulses. If you > simply left out THOSE clock pulses, then the resulting pattern was less > dense, and the stream could be squeezed (higher data transfer rate) to > almost twice as much data per time or space. Hence MFM "Modified > Frequency Modulation". The marketing people called that "DOUBLE DENSITY", > But, it oversimplified enough that it > caught on. Now that "DOUBLE DENSITY" existed, it was inevitable and soon > that FM became known as "SINGLE DENSITY", even though some engineers said > that FM was "half" density (one data bit for every two pulse spaces), and > that MFM ought be called "single density". > THUS, if you look at historical records, the term "DOUBLE DENSITY" came > into being BEFORE the term "SINGLE DENSITY"! (Cf. "World War II" V "World > War I" (previously "The Great War")) > > 8) SOME/MANY companies referred to double density with twice as many > tracks (such as the 720K format) as "QUAD DENSITY". > Intertec/Superbrain) used "QUAD DENSITY" to refer to double density 40 > tracks per side with 2 sides. THAT certainly created confusion. But, > there's MORE! When they came out with an 80 track double sided double > density format, they called that "SUPER Density". Thet abbreviated that > "SD", which just about everybody else used as abbreviation for "SINGLE > DENSITY"! > > 9) In addition to squeezing ten 512 byte sectors on a track, some people > even tried using additional tracks. Since there usually isn't a hard stop > after track 39 (or 79), most drives could handle 41 or 42 (81 or 82) > tracks. John Henderson (March/9/1944 - January/31/2017) of Tall Tree > Systems created a popular program called JFORMAT to squeeze ten sectors > and more tracks. He is also remembered for JRAM, some of the first > expanded memory boards. "Extended" used OS modes that understood more > memory; "Expanded" worked in 1M/640K by moving a block of high memory at a > time into a space in the 1M address range. He was then shut out of the > negotiations when Lotus/Intel/Microsoft developed their LIM/EMS standard. > I remember when he came out with the JRAM boards, he asked everybody at > the West Coast Computer Faire, "DO you do any software that uses lots of > memory?" Not looking for a contractor for a specific project, he was > trying to create a market for big memory boards. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Jul 26 05:02:31 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 12:02:31 +0200 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:46:17AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/24/21 10:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> My recollection of the DMF Microsoft period was that if you purchased a >> retail MS product using the DMF format and couldn't get it read on your >> system, a call to MS would result in a standard format copy being shipped. > It's my understanding that The DMF disks that Microsoft (and comparable from > IBM with PC-DOS) used a different non-FAT file system which took up less space > on the disk, thus yielding more storage for data. But that they both fit on > the same /standard/ ""1.44 MB disks. > I also seem to recall that Macintosh's could get 1.7 MB on the same ""1.44 MB > disks. HD disks can hold "up to" 2MB (12,500 bytes per track, times two sides, times 80 tracks), as printed on some of the more misleadingly-labelled brands. However, splitting that into sectors and adding guard bands reduces the usable space. Similarly, DD disks are "up to" 1MB. When writing, PC-style disk controllers scan for the appropriate sector header then switch to write mode to overwrite the old sector data. This requires guard bands between sectors and sector headers. The PC's standard of 1,440kiB seems have particularly generous guard bands, possibly to account for really shoddy old systems which may be slow at switching modes and/or whose drives are spinning a bit fast. The Amiga could get 880kiB on a DD disk, and 1760kiB on a HD disk if you have one of those hen's teeth drives which spin at 150RPM. It does this by doing a read-modify-reformat of the entire track of 11 or 22 sectors, which allows omitting all of the guard bands except for the one between the start and end of the track. The hardware could do the mode-switch thing, but I'm not sure that it saw much use, if any. There was a third-party device driver for the Amiga which took out some of the unused label areas in Amiga disk sector headers, and squeezed 12 or 24 sectors per track. It could also optionally go up to track 83, giving 1,032,192 or 2,064,384 bytes per disk, although that's kind of risky. The DMF format presumably also takes the approach that if the disk isn't intended to be written to by random drives, they can tighten the guard bands somewhat. I'm surprised that they went with 21 sectors per track when 22 is clearly possible. Perhaps it was a hedge against people writing to them anyway, or machines being unable to read them. These figures assume MFM encoding. Halve it for FM encoding, with a hard upper limit for double for fancier schemes. My back-of-beermat suggests 2,560kiB is plausible for HD disks on the Amiga or similarly-flexible third-party controller for the PC. > But I could be completely wrong. Apple had tighter control over their platform, so could tweak the timings to increase the available space for data. I don't know whether they did: the only time I've used a floppy on a Mac is to interoperate with a PC so it had to use the lowest common denominator. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 06:36:23 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 13:36:23 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 01:29, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/23/21 11:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Win95: 13 disks. > > That's fewer than I remember. > > Though, Windows 3.1 was 6 disks and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was 8 > disks. That was on top of MS-DOS 6.22 which was 3 disks. For a total > of 9 or 11. So, 13 isn't that big of a jump. A fair point. I had a freelance project in about 1997: PC Pro magazine had obtained a very early PC SSD. It had 16MB of battery-backed RAM on a PCI card and a controller that meant the PC could cold-boot from it. I got the job of benchmarking a PC OS booting from a hard disk versus the solid-state disk. The snag was that the disk, when formatted, was only about 15MB, and few complex OSes would fit into that even by 1997. Win95 would not, but I knew it very well, and I could cut it down _hard_. (I had ported the PC Pro benchmark suite from 16-bit to 32-bit Windows for them, a year or two earlier.) I went through Win95 file by file. I removed all apps except for Notepad, all fonts except those needed by Explorer and the DOS prompt. I removed all non-essential binaries, most of the DOS support, all the online help and docs, all the image files, the diagnostic tools and so on. I got it down to 14MB and it would, just barely, boot from the 16MB SSD, although you could barely do anything as there was almost no free disk space. It was a vain effort in the end -- being so minimal, it booted in a few seconds from any medium. It did make the point for the magazine that an OS would boot from SSD in a fraction of the time of from hard disk -- and so that in some years, when SSDs were common and cheap, they would be very desirable. What _actually_ became doable and desirable never became really possible with the Windows platform, sadly, although it's trivial with Linux and quite easy with Mac OS X: to put the core OS and application binaries on SSD, but keep the home directory on spinning media. Config files are tiny compared to modern binaries. They are read in milliseconds, maybe microseconds. With Linux, you just make /home a separate filesystem. It's trivial. My OS partitions are typically 16GB, which is plenty for Linux and all my normal apps. The /home directory is on a separate partition on a spinning disk, meaning terabytes of inexpensive space and no perceptible speed decrease. I suspect only people working with huge data files -- big RAW-format images, video, maybe uncompressed audio -- would notice the hit. With OS X you can just move the user's home directory. /home is on the OS drive but (e.g.) /home/lproven is on an HDD. This works perfectly but it completely breaks OS X's tools for migrating to a new machine, so I have reverted to using a Fusion Drive that RAIDs together an SSD and an HDD into one volume. There's no easy clean way to do this on Windows. You can't move /Users without ugly registry hacks that can break compatibility. Ah well. Terabyte-class SSDs are affordable now; the method is obsolete. > > Win98: 38 disks. > > Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. *nod* > I have 29 disk images in my collection for NetWare 3.11. Aha! TFTI! > > Ha! Trying to google, I found a piece I wrote myself! > > https://www.theregister.com/Print/2013/07/16/netware_4_anniversary/ > > $ReadingList++ It's not very long. > > I think it was circa 20-25 disks. I remember I had to copy them before > > installation, in case. And at that time, the DOS 3.3 DISKCOPY command > > didn't swap to disk or XMS/EMS, and with 640 kB of RAM, copying a 1.4 > > MB floppy could take 3-4 reads and as many writes. > > Oh good $DEITY! > > I would have borrowed a 2nd floppy drive from another system, done the > copy, and returned the floppy drive. It would probably have been faster. You know, that's an excellent idea and I wish I'd thought of it then. My desktop was an IBM PC-AT and would have made this difficult, and mostly we used IBM PS/2 boxes, which still made it non-trivial -- no dangling a drive from the controller cable! But it was doable. > > It took me over an entire working day to duplicate all the disks, IIRC. > > Ya. I bet. I remember it vividly as one of my worst tasks ever. > > There was, and I think in some markets -- Japan maybe? possibly > > because of non-adherence to CD standards? -- it was sold on floppies. > > Japanese and to an extent Chinese OSes were very instructive, especially in historical context. As the DOS PC conquered the industry in the West, it did not in Japan. DOS could not handle Japanese fonts well enough; VGA is not really enough for readable kanji, hiragana and katakana. So Japanese PCs stayed non-IBM-compatible. GUIs finally broke into that market: soft-rendered scalable fonts could make good-looking kana. So, originally, Windows 3.11 (note, *not* Windows for Workgroups 3.11) was originally Japanese, IIRC, and I think the last ever version of Win 3.x, Windows 3.2, was Chinese-only. https://microsoft.fandom.com/wiki/Windows_3.2 Geos I believe had Japanese versions. DR-DOS 6 and ViewMax had special Japanese editions that supported Japanese fonts: https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30331 But by the same token the Chinese market especially was not rich and was slower to adopt expensive peripherals such as optical drives -- thus, OSes sold on floppies long after these had largely disappeared from the West. > Ya. Early Linux, which Slackware in the '90s definitely qualifies as, > often had a chicken and egg problem. You could create a new boot disk > and / or modules for hardware /if/ /only/ you had a functional Linux > system to do it from. Bootstraping Linux in the '90s was ... touchy. Urgh. Yes! :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 26 06:43:16 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 13:43:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jul 2021, Peter Corlett wrote: > When writing, PC-style disk controllers scan for the appropriate sector > header then switch to write mode to overwrite the old sector data. This > requires guard bands between sectors and sector headers. The PC's This is not called a guard band. A guard band is the erased zone between tracks. What you mean is called sector gap, there are multiple gaps between sector headers and sector data. Christian From macro at orcam.me.uk Mon Jul 26 08:34:44 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:34:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> <507892977.26435.1621546018213@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 2021, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > ISTR upstreaming some fixes to Linux UFS support 20+ years ago to address > this very problem (IIRC OSF/1 or Digital Unix CD-ROMs were also UFS, and I > had a need to access them under Linux for some reason) and with them in > place I thought the loop device hack was not needed anymore. > > Perhaps my memory tricks me or something has since regressed though, e.g. > due to changes in the block layer, so I'll try to remember to see what's > happened here when I get to my Ultrix CDs when I'm in my remote lab next > time. It's not a feature that's used on a regular basis after all, so any > regression can be long-lived. I remembered right. An old Linux 2.4.26 kernel binary mounts a UFS CD here using the old IDE hardware driver just fine with no need for block size translation via the loop device: # mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=old /dev/hdc /mnt/cdrom # mount | grep ufs /dev/hdc on /mnt/cdrom type ufs (ro,ufstype=old) # uname -a Linux (none) 2.4.26 #8 SMP Sat Aug 14 21:00:06 CEST 2004 i586 unknown unknown GNU/Linux # Not anymore with Linux 2.6.18 or anything newer: # mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=old /dev/hdc /mnt/cdrom mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hdc, or too many mounted file systems # dmesg | tail -n 1 UFS: failed to set blocksize # mount -t ufs -o loop,ro,ufstype=old /dev/hdc /mnt/cdrom # mount | grep ufs /dev/hdc on /mnt/cdrom type ufs (ro,loop=/dev/loop0,ufstype=old) # uname -a Linux (none) 2.6.18 #9 SMP Sun Nov 26 18:31:10 GMT 2017 i586 unknown unknown GNU/Linux # So we do have a regression here, sigh. I'll see what I can do about it, but it'll have to wait a bit as I won't have local lab access for a while and I dare not leaving a CD in the drive while I am away. Maciej From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 10:48:37 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:48:37 +0200 Subject: Microsoft OSs (was: Install Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 18:41, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Talk about a chicken and egg / priming problem. How do you get the > CD-ROM drivers off of the CD-ROM that you need a driver to access. ;-) > The quintessential answer is to have (access to) another system (or > driver) assist. One of the things I liked about Windows -- from 3 to 7 and probably still, I think -- is that you could just copy all the files off the media into a folder, run SETUP.EXE or WINNT.EXE and that DOS program would build enough of the OS to boot into and install the rest. In other words, you can install NT from DOS. I used this in production around 1999 or so. A client needed to expand their Netware network but they had a cupboard full of old 386 PCs, generic cheap clones. I did a deal with a PC builder I knew. He came around, filled his van with 386s, took them away, gutted them, fitted new 6x86 motherboards with onboard graphics, cheapo NICs, EIDE hard disks, and delivered them back. I reconnected the old screens and keyboards and mice, booted them and installed DOS 6.22 on them, into a tiny C: drive -- I don't remember now, maybe a 512 MB partition. I copied a Netware stack on from floppy, connected to the server, and copied the NT install files onto the C drive, then I ran the setup program. Result, a couple of dozen new NT4 workstations, with no sound or CD drives -- nothing to distract the workers -- for a few hundred pounds per seat. The keyboards were good, better than new ones, and though the screens were rubbish those are trivially easy to upgrade. I remember discussing the problems installing OS/2 2 with an IT journo and OS/2 expert I knew, the late great Terence Green. I said to him that OS/2's famed installation pains could be alleviated if IBM offered a similar tool, to install the core OS *from DOS* and bootstrap the installation from that. He was incredulous and contemptuously dismissive. I still think it's a good idea. You didn't have to make the multiple NT boot floppies. You didn't need an optical drive that the PC could boot from. You didn't need to configure a boot floppy with drivers for optical media -- and especially bear in mind that in the mid-1990s, many optical drives were connected to sound cards via proprietary (and slow) interfaces, such as Mitsumi and Panasonic. 32-bit OSes like NT, OS/2 and Linux never supported those sound card-attached drives out of the box, and definitely not off boot floppies. Going via DOS made it very easy. The machine never needed to boot off anything except its own hard disk, which is [a] easy and [b] a sine qua non -- if it can't boot of its own HDD it's not going to work. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 10:51:05 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:51:05 +0200 Subject: Inventory (was Re: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s) In-Reply-To: <207021042.825884.1627149118098@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <207021042.825884.1627149118098@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 19:52, Kevin Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > Here is an inventory of what I have for parts that I am desiring to pass on to others if they are interested or to seek permission to pitch to an electronics recycler (or rubbish bin) if these things are of limited value due to being plentiful. Oh, good work! Permission to redistribute this list, with email removed? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 26 10:57:35 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 08:57:35 -0700 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: The bottom line on floppy disks, in my view, is that they're a design compromise out of late 1960s technology. The platform (drive) is made to be inexpensive (for the time), as is the media--all limited by, at best, early 1970s technology. Back then, almost all drive spindles were belt-driven and the small-format 5.25" drives used DC motors with rather imprecise speed control. Issues such as ISV (instantaneous speed variation) were rife, so the encoding and decoding of information had to be very tolerant of speed anomalies. In addition, the media had to be interchanged between drives, which brings up the hobgoblin of accurate track positioning. Drives are essentially "dumb" devices, so there's no provision for any sort of closed-loop system. When I first ran across the things, I was amazed that it worked. You had a medium that could be interchanged between "dumb" drives, and it was accessed with heads that contacted the surface of the disk. Could we do better? Absolutely, but the cost of the drive goes up. Consider an early 1980s attempt by Drivetech (later sold to Kodak in a bankruptcy sale). 192 track per inch with embedded servo, yielding, at first, about 3MB per floppy, eventually going to 6MB. The humble Zip disk (and the UHD disks) could get well more than 100 MB on a floppy, using more state-of-the-art technologies. Coatings have improved considerably over time, but the humble floppy is still powdered rust stuck to a plastic disc. Curiously, the notion of a flexible disc dates well back to the 1950s, when it was promoted for audio recordings that could be tucked into an envelope and mailed. The Zip disk was as close as we got to a universally-accepted candidate for replacing the humble floppy drive. However, it came too late. The same story applies with alternate encoding technology. For general acceptance, MFM was pretty much the end of the line. Earlier attempts used group-code encoding. Others used "zoned" recording to pack more data on the outer cylinders than the inner ones. But these all required the hardware peculiar to the system that created the disks. For all intents and purposes, the MFM 500KHz data rate encoding was the end of the line. Extended density media and drives used a 1MHz data rate to get 2880Kb on a disk failed miserably. The barium-ferrite media was never cheap and the drives were not widespread. I think it's remarkable when you think about it, that early 1970s 8" floppies are still quite readable today. I wonder if USB flash drives will endure similarly. We already know that stuff stored on the Internet won't. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 26 11:44:22 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jul 2021, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > HD disks can hold "up to" 2MB (12,500 bytes per track, times two sides, times 80 > tracks), as printed on some of the more misleadingly-labelled brands. However, > splitting that into sectors and adding guard bands reduces the usable space. > Similarly, DD disks are "up to" 1MB. > > When writing, PC-style disk controllers scan for the appropriate sector header > then switch to write mode to overwrite the old sector data. This requires guard > bands between sectors and sector headers. The PC's standard of 1,440kiB seems > have particularly generous guard bands, possibly to account for really shoddy > old systems which may be slow at switching modes and/or whose drives are > spinning a bit fast. > > The Amiga could get 880kiB on a DD disk, and 1760kiB on a HD disk if you have > one of those hen's teeth drives which spin at 150RPM. It does this by doing a > read-modify-reformat of the entire track of 11 or 22 sectors, which allows > omitting all of the guard bands except for the one between the start and end of > the track. The hardware could do the mode-switch thing, but I'm not sure that it > saw much use, if any. > > There was a third-party device driver for the Amiga which took out some of the > unused label areas in Amiga disk sector headers, and squeezed 12 or 24 sectors > per track. It could also optionally go up to track 83, giving 1,032,192 or > 2,064,384 bytes per disk, although that's kind of risky. > > The DMF format presumably also takes the approach that if the disk isn't > intended to be written to by random drives, they can tighten the guard bands > somewhat. I'm surprised that they went with 21 sectors per track when 22 is > clearly possible. Perhaps it was a hedge against people writing to them anyway, > or machines being unable to read them. "inter sector gaps", "write splice", etc. not "guard bands" any "bands" (synonym for circle) would be between tracks. But, VERY good important point that you bring up. If a disk will ever get a sector re-written, than it needs those write splice gaps. But, if a disk will be written once, and NEVER get any sectors changed, then it could get way with very tiny intersector gaps and write splices. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 26 12:04:37 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 10:04:37 -0700 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 7/26/21 9:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jul 2021, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > "inter sector gaps", "write splice", etc. not "guard bands"? any "bands" > (synonym for circle) would be between tracks. > > But, VERY good important point that you bring up. > If a disk will ever get a sector re-written, than it needs those write > splice gaps. > But, if a disk will be written once, and NEVER get any sectors changed, > then it could get way with very tiny intersector gaps and write splices. That 2MGUI scheme has no inter-sector gaps--just the gap between the ID address header and the data field. Of course, that's because there's only one sector per track. While interesting, there's no way that I'd trust the thing. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 12:25:17 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 13:25:17 -0400 Subject: Install Floppies (Was: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from In-Reply-To: References: <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26ae9d30-bd7d-6bff-8702-b2fe978792c0@vaxen.net> <102b3bf2-08b0-e1a5-a015-3eb091ab3adb@sydex.com> <693b06d6-5e74-180f-3804-bf855af676dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 6:02 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > The Amiga could get 880kiB on a DD disk, and 1760kiB on a HD disk if you have > one of those hen's teeth drives which spin at 150RPM. It does this by doing a > read-modify-reformat of the entire track of 11 or 22 sectors, which allows > omitting all of the guard bands except for the one between the start and end of > the track. In particular, the Amiga trackdisk.device driver would start by spinning up the disk motor, then writing out about 10% of a track of gap bytes, then emit all 11/22 sectors in a tight line, (intentionally) overwriting some of the just-written gap bytes. The little transition right at the end where the write stopped was irrelevant since it would just be skipped over by the find-the-first-sector scheme. It also meant that you didn't have to wait for part of a rotation for your sector to come around. As soon as the disk was up to speed, you could begin writing immediately. The "disk controller" was really a giant shift register that read or wrote media-ready bits. The encoding/decoding happened in RAM, using part of the graphics subsystem to transform unencoded-binary blocks to/from MFM-encoded data. Screwy but it was pretty flexible. Reading/writing "DOS floppies" was a simpler process, and there was a different diskette driver for that (mfm.device) and a filesystem handler that knew about the FAT filesystems. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 26 12:33:21 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 10:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> I would have borrowed a 2nd floppy drive from another system, done the >> copy, and returned the floppy drive. It would probably have been faster. On Mon, 26 Jul 2021, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > You know, that's an excellent idea and I wish I'd thought of it then. > My desktop was an IBM PC-AT and would have made this difficult, and > mostly we used IBM PS/2 boxes, which still made it non-trivial -- no > dangling a drive from the controller cable! But it was doable. On 5150/5016 (PC/XT), there was a DC37 on the back panel of the FDC for two external floppies. IBM did sell external 5.25" (both 360K and 1.2M!) and 3.5" floppy drives. At one point, they included brackets with a DC37, including a DC37 on a bracket to fit some models of PS/2. (I used to have an IBM 1.2M external drive, although I never used the PS/2 bracket.) I had several A-B-C-D DC37 switch boxes. One for the multiple controller boards (Cordata, EiconScript, JRAM+?) for my Cordata (CX engine) laser printer; and a few for machines where I had multiple external floppy drives. 3" (both SS and DS, because my DS wouldn't let me at the second side of SS flippy), 3.25", 3.5", 3.5" 67.5tpi, 100tpi 5.25" (Micropolis), IBM 1.2M external, 8", Weltek, and tape drives) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 26 13:12:17 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 11:12:17 -0700 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1ae108ad-5f84-e014-c351-479f46a95640@sydex.com> On 7/26/21 10:33 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I had several A-B-C-D DC37 switch boxes.? One for the multiple > controller boards (Cordata, EiconScript, JRAM+?) for my Cordata (CX > engine) laser printer; and a few for machines where I had multiple > external floppy drives. On more recent systems (right up to P4) that support only a single floppy or two, I constructed an "interposer" in the floppy drive cable that involves a DC37F connector and bracket, with a DPDT toggle switch that switches the motor and drive select lines of either the A: or B: drive to the external connector. I've got lots of external drive boxes, all with DC37M-terminated cables. Just grab the drive you need, plug it in and throw the switch. Surprisingly, quite a number of later motherboards with floppy support do fine handling FM disks. --Chuck From mark.darvill at mac.com Mon Jul 26 14:52:21 2021 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 20:52:21 +0100 Subject: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 Message-ID: <2940A644-34B4-4FD2-BA95-00CF4F3582E7@mac.com> Hi, A plea, does anyone have a copy of OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2? I have looked at all my archives and only have it for VAX. An upgrade would also work as I have V7.3. If someone has a copy in VMS so-called ISO format that would be great. Just got a Personal Workstation 500au fully working and would prefer to keep it on V7 VMS. Many thanks, Mark From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 26 19:08:58 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:08:58 -0600 Subject: Floppy capacity. Message-ID: <2d1c08e4-a12e-e5e5-a6e0-0598a615bacd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> I wanted to take a moment to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to the recent threads related to floppy disk capacity. I have found the threads to be very insightful and have saved things off for re-reading when I update my personal notes on the subject. Thank you! -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 26 19:29:40 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:29:40 -0600 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <748da6ad-6c50-a48e-34fd-72849592857d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/26/21 5:36 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I got it down to 14MB and it would, just barely, boot from the 16MB > SSD, although you could barely do anything as there was almost no > free disk space. It was a vain effort in the end -- being so minimal, > it booted in a few seconds from any medium. It did make the point > for the magazine that an OS would boot from SSD in a fraction of the > time of from hard disk -- and so that in some years, when SSDs were > common and cheap, they would be very desirable. Interesting. > What _actually_ became doable and desirable never became really > possible with the Windows platform, sadly, although it's trivial with > Linux and quite easy with Mac OS X: to put the core OS and application > binaries on SSD, but keep the home directory on spinning media. I've not really tried to do this on Windows. But I would wonder if you could mount an alternate file system on top of the Users / Documents and Settings folder using -- what I believe is called -- Dynamic Data Overlay. Very much like you would mount /home as a file system independent from /. I don't know if there would be any dependency on Administrator's profile being accessible before DDO mounted everything. > Config files are tiny compared to modern binaries. They are read in > milliseconds, maybe microseconds. I suspect that more time is spent finding them and traversing the file system meta-data than reading the actual config files. > With OS X you can just move the user's home directory. /home is on the > OS drive but (e.g.) /home/lproven is on an HDD. This works perfectly > but it completely breaks OS X's tools for migrating to a new machine, > so I have reverted to using a Fusion Drive that RAIDs together an > SSD and an HDD into one volume. I've never tried to do anything like this with OS X. I would naively think that you could mount another file system on /home. But, maybe there's dependencies that I'm not aware of. > There's no easy clean way to do this on Windows. You can't move /Users > without ugly registry hacks that can break compatibility. This is why I've always tried to not alter the path to things. Instead, rely on things like file system mounts / DDO to make the given path be presented by a different file system. The only rare exception would be like having /home be a symbolic link to /path/to/home which is on another file system. This is how I have my VPS use LUKS encryption. /home -> /var/LUKS/home; /var/spool/mail -> /var/LUKS/var/spool/mail; etc. I find that not altering the path means that you don't have to go through things like registry hacks. > Ah well. Terabyte-class SSDs are affordable now; the method is > obsolete. /me looks at the mailing list and the things that are discussed and reject the "obsolete" portion of that comment. > You know, that's an excellent idea and I wish I'd thought of it then. > My desktop was an IBM PC-AT and would have made this difficult, and > mostly we used IBM PS/2 boxes, which still made it non-trivial -- > no dangling a drive from the controller cable! But it was doable. Where there is a will, there is a way. > Japanese and to an extent Chinese OSes were very instructive, > especially in historical context. > > As the DOS PC conquered the industry in the West, it did not in Japan. > DOS could not handle Japanese fonts well enough; VGA is not really > enough for readable kanji, hiragana and katakana. So Japanese PCs > stayed non-IBM-compatible. Interesting. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 05:21:45 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:21:45 +0200 Subject: Compaq Deskpro boards/hard drives from the late 1990s In-Reply-To: <748da6ad-6c50-a48e-34fd-72849592857d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1195245304.1026722.1626804675460@mail.yahoo.com> <1805990751.1454905.1626901198868@mail.yahoo.com> <1881629521.186740.1626966735530@mail.yahoo.com> <795d4eca-b39a-5236-fde4-e97230f68aed@groessler.org> <6e4023c6-a4a6-1dd1-b279-9b9bd96adfc3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <748da6ad-6c50-a48e-34fd-72849592857d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 at 02:29, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/26/21 5:36 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I got it down to 14MB and it would, just barely, boot from the 16MB > > SSD, although you could barely do anything as there was almost no > > free disk space. It was a vain effort in the end -- being so minimal, > > it booted in a few seconds from any medium. It did make the point > > for the magazine that an OS would boot from SSD in a fraction of the > > time of from hard disk -- and so that in some years, when SSDs were > > common and cheap, they would be very desirable. > > Interesting. It was a fun and interesting project to do, actually, and made more enjoyable by the knowledge that I'd get paid for it. :-D The general idea lived on in many ways (almost certainly _not_ inspired by the article that came out of my work). 98Lite was a useful tool that let you strip unnecessary bits out of Win98 & 98SE: https://www.litepc.com/98lite.html I used this to run 98SE minus IE and other junk on my Thinkpad 701C, the famed "butterfly keyboard" laptop, for a while. It took more resources than 95, but it let me have more than 4 IP addresses, which was a hard limit in 95. Around 2000 I was travelling internationally with that laptop and needed networking via multiple Windows network adaptors: PCMCIA Ethernet, plus dial-up modem + PPP, plus AOL, plus Direct Cable Connection, plus IRDA for my cellphone, and that became a deal-breaker with Win95. That's 5 network adaptors and they can't all run TCP/IP, even if they're not active. 98Lite inspired N-Lite, which could do the same for NT derivatives, including WinXP. https://www.nliteos.com/nlite.html I used N-Lite to build a custom installation CD ISO for the volume-license edition of XP SP3, which left out all the MS internet tools except IE (which you needed for Windows Update), removed Movie Maker and some other cruft you can't uninstall, turned off the Themes engine and set the Classic theme and a few other things. It made for a smaller, cleaner installation that was entirely compatible and could be used and updated as normal. I also made one for my own use which moved /"Documents and Settings" onto another partition and so on, but you had to make the partitions _just so_ in advance which crippled it. I later discovered someone else had had the same idea and distributed it, under the name TinyXP. I had this running in a VM under Linux and in base form it took just 40MB of RAM. Even with IE, updates and antivirus I had it running in 70MB of RAM. It's long obsolete but there is a copy on the Internet Archive which AFAICT is clean: https://archive.org/details/TinyXPRev11MultiInclTinyBIIAndMicroXP086EXPerience2010 TinyXP became Tiny7: https://archive.org/details/Tiny7 ... but I think in deliberate retribution, Win7 SP1 needs a complete install and so you can't install SP1 on Tiny7. At this point, the creator, known as eXPerience, gave up. Damned shame IMHO -- I'd love to see a Tiny10. > I've not really tried to do this on Windows. I have. :-) > But I would wonder if you > could mount an alternate file system on top of the Users / Documents and > Settings folder using -- what I believe is called -- Dynamic Data > Overlay. Very much like you would mount /home as a file system > independent from /. I don't know if there would be any dependency on > Administrator's profile being accessible before DDO mounted everything. Interesting idea. For me, TBH, more trouble than it's worth. I mostly run Linux on my PC kit now. > I suspect that more time is spent finding them and traversing the file > system meta-data than reading the actual config files. True. Even so, I have found that there's no perceptible difference, to me, on something like a Core i5 laptop, between / on SSD + /home on HDD, and the whole thing on SSD. > I've never tried to do anything like this with OS X. I would naively > think that you could mount another file system on /home. But, maybe > there's dependencies that I'm not aware of. Not easily. OS X dispenses with most of the Unix config files and it does not respond well if you try to half-nelson it into behaving like a traditional Unix. But after I emigrated to Czechia, I had enough money to stop using a Hackintosh and buy used Macintels. I moved my Toshiba laptop's 120GB SSD+ 1TB HDD into a Mac mini. I manually moved the home directory to the HDD and it worked fine. Until I bought the Retina iMac I am typing on, when I discovered I couldn't migrate my apps/settings/data. The migration tool can't handle a home directory on a different volume. And I couldn't reproduce the setup, as Apple fitted a 12GB SSD and you can't fit OS X onto that. So I had to manually copy everything, and then reset millions of files' permissions. It was a nightmarish job. > The only rare exception would be like having /home be a symbolic link to > /path/to/home which is on another file system. This is how I have my > VPS use LUKS encryption. /home -> /var/LUKS/home; /var/spool/mail -> > /var/LUKS/var/spool/mail; etc. Whatever works for you. I do not like LVM and I do not use encryption. > /me looks at the mailing list and the things that are discussed and > reject the "obsolete" portion of that comment. :-D > > As the DOS PC conquered the industry in the West, it did not in Japan. > > DOS could not handle Japanese fonts well enough; VGA is not really > > enough for readable kanji, hiragana and katakana. So Japanese PCs > > stayed non-IBM-compatible. > > Interesting. Only into the Windows era. After GUIs took over, they could handle logographic/ideographic writing systems just fine and the Japanese computer industry gradually converged onto the same standards as the Western world. It's a great shame IMHO. We need more diversity. I recently discovered an interesting example but maybe I should make it a new thread. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 05:27:38 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:27:38 +0200 Subject: Branching the thread away from Compaq deskpro boards: "What We Have Lost" Message-ID: This was a talk at a recent Chaos Computer Club congress: https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-525180-what_have_we_lost#t=1707 ? We have ended up in a world where UNIX and Windows have taken over, and most people have never experienced anything else. Over the years, though, many other system designs have come and gone, and some of those systems have had neat ideas that were nevertheless not enough to achieve commercial success. We will take you on a tour of a variety of those systems, talking about what makes them special. In particular, we'll discuss IBM i, with emphasis on the Single Level Store, TIMI, and block terminals Interlisp, the Lisp Machine with the interface of Smalltalk OpenGenera, with a unique approach to UI design TRON, Japan's ambitious OS standard More may be added as time permits. ? It talks about Lisp Machine OSes, which interest me, but I especially liked that there's a demo of Interlisp as well as the better-known Symbolics OpenGenera. Unlike Genera, Interlisp is now FOSS and there is an effort afoot to port it to modern OSes and hardware and revive it as a Lisp IDE. There's also a not-very-inspiring but all too rare demo of IBM i. It's not pretty but this descendant of OS/400 is the last living single-level store in active maintenance and production. But the big thing that made me link to this after the discussion of DOS/V, Chinese Windows 3.2 and Japanese DR-DOS and DR GEM, was the demo of the final version of Japan's TRON OS. Most people have never heard of TRON but it was extraordinarily widely-used, embedded in billions of consumer electronics products. Well, there was also a desktop-PC version, with its own very rich object-oriented GUI, and this talk contains the only demo of it I've ever seen. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 10:09:17 2021 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 10:09:17 -0500 Subject: RP/M2 by Micro Methods Inc In-Reply-To: <3d40e75d-c068-b1b6-511e-b51f8e8b27e@661.org> References: <3d40e75d-c068-b1b6-511e-b51f8e8b27e@661.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 9:52 PM David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I found a copy of RP/M2 for the IBM PC by Micro Methods Inc. with manual > and some floppies, 8" and 5.25". According to the manual, this was a > CP/M compatible operating system. Doing a web search doesn't tell me > anything more than a couple offhand comments. Does anyone here know > anything interesting about this? > David, might you be willing to post it somewhere? I have a few V30 chips and have been wanting to try some CP/M-80 stuff on them out of sheer masochism. I've found some packages letting you run (some) CP/M-80 binaries from DOS, but it's interesting that RP/M2 is a full OS that doesn't run under DOS. > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > -- Eric Christopherson From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Tue Jul 27 14:02:55 2021 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:02:55 -0400 Subject: Mounting ULTRIX CDROMs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: <2d3bf7f9-c8e9-f89d-c267-80c8b001e6f6@ntlworld.com> <2115727983.18992.1621544745106@mail.yahoo.com> <507892977.26435.1621546018213@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2021-07-26 9:34 a.m., Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 21 May 2021, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > >> ISTR upstreaming some fixes to Linux UFS support 20+ years ago to address >> this very problem (IIRC OSF/1 or Digital Unix CD-ROMs were also UFS, and I >> had a need to access them under Linux for some reason) and with them in >> place I thought the loop device hack was not needed anymore. >> >> Perhaps my memory tricks me or something has since regressed though, e.g. >> due to changes in the block layer, so I'll try to remember to see what's >> happened here when I get to my Ultrix CDs when I'm in my remote lab next >> time. It's not a feature that's used on a regular basis after all, so any >> regression can be long-lived. > > I remembered right. An old Linux 2.4.26 kernel binary mounts a UFS CD > here using the old IDE hardware driver just fine with no need for block > size translation via the loop device: > > # mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=old /dev/hdc /mnt/cdrom > # mount | grep ufs > /dev/hdc on /mnt/cdrom type ufs (ro,ufstype=old) > # uname -a > Linux (none) 2.4.26 #8 SMP Sat Aug 14 21:00:06 CEST 2004 i586 unknown unknown GNU/Linux > # > > Not anymore with Linux 2.6.18 or anything newer: > > # mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=old /dev/hdc /mnt/cdrom > mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hdc, > or too many mounted file systems > # dmesg | tail -n 1 > UFS: failed to set blocksize > # mount -t ufs -o loop,ro,ufstype=old /dev/hdc /mnt/cdrom > # mount | grep ufs > /dev/hdc on /mnt/cdrom type ufs (ro,loop=/dev/loop0,ufstype=old) > # uname -a > Linux (none) 2.6.18 #9 SMP Sun Nov 26 18:31:10 GMT 2017 i586 unknown unknown GNU/Linux > # > > So we do have a regression here, sigh. Thanks for the analysis. I would have speculated that the difference was in the SCSI CD-ROM driver for /dev/sr* devices since those are what are used in modern Linux distributions. But your results quite clearly show that's not the case. It also shows just how long ago the change happened. Very interesting. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 27 20:21:24 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:21:24 -0600 Subject: Branching the thread away from Compaq deskpro boards: "What We Have Lost" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <936b4ddf-6cb4-317c-2d40-0b2988b943a0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/27/21 4:27 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This was a talk at a recent Chaos Computer Club congress: > https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-525180-what_have_we_lost#t=1707 > > ? We have ended up in a world where UNIX and Windows have taken over, > and most people have never experienced anything else. Over the years, > though, many other system designs have come and gone, and some of > those systems have had neat ideas that were nevertheless not enough > to achieve commercial success. We will take you on a tour of a variety > of those systems, talking about what makes them special. > > In particular, we'll discuss IBM i, with emphasis on the Single > Level Store, TIMI, and block terminals Interlisp, the Lisp Machine > with the interface of Smalltalk OpenGenera, with a unique approach > to UI design TRON, Japan's ambitious OS standard More may be added > as time permits. ? Oh ... this looks interesting! > It talks about Lisp Machine OSes, which interest me, but I especially > liked that there's a demo of Interlisp as well as the better-known > Symbolics OpenGenera. Unlike Genera, Interlisp is now FOSS and there > is an effort afoot to port it to modern OSes and hardware and revive > it as a Lisp IDE. > > There's also a not-very-inspiring but all too rare demo of IBM > i. It's not pretty but this descendant of OS/400 is the last living > single-level store in active maintenance and production. I've been discussing OS/400 / IBM i with a friend who owns three AS/400s. > But the big thing that made me link to this after the discussion of > DOS/V, Chinese Windows 3.2 and Japanese DR-DOS and DR GEM, was the > demo of the final version of Japan's TRON OS. > > Most people have never heard of TRON but it was extraordinarily > widely-used, embedded in billions of consumer electronics products. > Well, there was also a desktop-PC version, with its own very rich > object-oriented GUI, and this talk contains the only demo of it I've > ever seen. Thank you for sharing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 11:23:51 2021 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:23:51 +0000 Subject: Wanted: Windows Driver for Lexar PC Card Reader Message-ID: Does anyone have the Windows (preferably Windows 10) drivers for the Lexar Media GS-UFD-20SA-TP PC card reader? I found a driver online, lexar_card_34806.zip at admirestore.top, but Malwarebytes gives a warning about the download site, so I am hesitant to download that driver. I want to get my old Lexar PC card reader working again so I can read some cards that I used with my Poqet PQ-181. Bob From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 18:37:17 2021 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:37:17 -0500 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes Message-ID: This is a bit of a long shot, but is anyone aware of a successful method to read IBM Selectric MT/ST tapes? A museum in Australia has a box of them and are interested in the contents. I'm fairly involved in the global Selectric community and while 1 or 2 MT/ST?s exist, they?re non-functional. I know IBM offered a 2495 Tape Reader for the IBM 360, which could be a starting point with modification, but I suspect those are even scarcer than the MT/ST itself. Even the encoding format appears to be a bit of a secret. Recording is character-by-character, tape spacing controlled by sprocket holes along one edge. https://obsoletemedia.org/ibm-mtst/ Thanks- Cory From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 03:58:29 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:58:29 +0100 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> Cory, Its only recorded at around 25BPI so I don't thing it would be too hard to decode. Given its a character at a time, I suspect some iron filings or similar would reveal the codes and track spacing and with a bit of luck you could find a head that would read the data... I am sure we used to have some when we had real tapes. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Cory > Heisterkamp via cctalk > Sent: 29 July 2021 00:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes > > This is a bit of a long shot, but is anyone aware of a successful method to read > IBM Selectric MT/ST tapes? A museum in Australia has a box of them and are > interested in the contents. > > I'm fairly involved in the global Selectric community and while 1 or 2 MT/ST?s > exist, they?re non-functional. I know IBM offered a 2495 Tape Reader for the > IBM 360, which could be a starting point with modification, but I suspect > those are even scarcer than the MT/ST itself. > > Even the encoding format appears to be a bit of a secret. Recording is > character-by-character, tape spacing controlled by sprocket holes along one > edge. > > https://obsoletemedia.org/ibm-mtst/ mtst/?fbclid=IwAR28c5ej69AlF0os1PcykpHCh0Q_yz5BXbnUSi9UID- > 4pY6GU3wLxZXFhDI> > > Thanks- Cory From stepleton at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 07:21:27 2021 From: stepleton at gmail.com (Tom Stepleton) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 13:21:27 +0100 Subject: Replicating IBM SLT/MST card interconnect Message-ID: Hi cctalk, I'm looking to replicate the 24-contact connector system that IBM used on SLT and MST cards for many years. Has anyone done this before? The best photos of this connector that I can find online are on this page: http://techandtrouble.blogspot.com/2014/04/happy-50th-system360-pt5-anatomy-of-slt.html I haven't searched Bitsavers documentation extensively for IBM specifications, but I've seen some details around page 54 of this document: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/logic/SY22-2798-2_LogicBlocks_AutomatedLogicDiagrams_SLT,SLD,ASLT,MST_TO_Oct71.pdf I'm interested in reproducing both polarities of this connector: plug and socket. Also, even though the most familiar use of this connector is for board-to-board interconnect, I'm most interested in wire-to-board interconnect. IBM used this method for DC power connectors in its 5100, 5110, and 5120 computers. Here are images of this specific connector: http://stepleton.com/connector/ taken as still images from a YouTube video on the IBM 5120 by Jerry Walker ( https://www.youtube.com/c/JerryWalker-JMPrecision/videos). I've designed and built a device that monitors DC power supply voltages for overvoltage and undervoltage excursions and cuts off all power rails if any voltage goes out of spec. I hope to use it to protect my own IBM 5100 from major power supply faults like the one CuriousMarc encountered with his 9825T: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-eN93L6yX8 In order to put my device between my 5100's power supply and the logic card backplane, I need to recreate a plug and a socket so that I can fashion a cable that goes out to my device. If anyone has created dependable modern versions of these connectors, would you mind sharing any pointers? Thanks for any help, --Tom From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 29 08:16:29 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:16:29 -0400 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58319DC4-4F87-4587-A20B-C8097D216EC2@comcast.net> One of those magnetic fluid tape checking devices would show the bits very easily at that density (or even a lot higher). It seems to me this sort of thing should be no problem at all for the various general purpose tape reading machines that have been built, especially the ones with MR heads. So long as the reader has heads that land reasonably well on the recorded tracks, the rest is just software. Part of the software work would be reverse engineering the recording format -- NRZ or NRZI or whatever, bit layout and character set encoding, file encoding. The encoding of formatting control information will probably be guesswork, but recovering most of the plain text should be doable. paul > On Jul 29, 2021, at 4:58 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > > Cory, > > Its only recorded at around 25BPI so I don't thing it would be too hard to decode. > Given its a character at a time, I suspect some iron filings or similar would reveal the codes and track spacing and with a bit of luck you could find a head that would read the data... > I am sure we used to have some when we had real tapes. > > Dave > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Cory >> Heisterkamp via cctalk >> Sent: 29 July 2021 00:37 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes >> >> This is a bit of a long shot, but is anyone aware of a successful method to read >> IBM Selectric MT/ST tapes? A museum in Australia has a box of them and are >> interested in the contents. >> >> I'm fairly involved in the global Selectric community and while 1 or 2 MT/ST?s >> exist, they?re non-functional. I know IBM offered a 2495 Tape Reader for the >> IBM 360, which could be a starting point with modification, but I suspect >> those are even scarcer than the MT/ST itself. >> >> Even the encoding format appears to be a bit of a secret. Recording is >> character-by-character, tape spacing controlled by sprocket holes along one >> edge. >> >> https://obsoletemedia.org/ibm-mtst/ > mtst/?fbclid=IwAR28c5ej69AlF0os1PcykpHCh0Q_yz5BXbnUSi9UID- >> 4pY6GU3wLxZXFhDI> >> >> Thanks- Cory > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 29 09:21:25 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:21:25 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/21 1:58 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Its only recorded at around 25BPI so I don't thing it would be too hard to decode. > Given its a character at a time, I suspect some iron filings or similar would reveal the codes and track spacing and with a bit of luck you could find a head that would read the data... > I am sure we used to have some when we had real tapes. The second inquiry for me in about 30 years. I've occasionally seen the tape units come up for auction, but not in the last 10 years or so. There was even a version to interface to a S/360 channel. There is documentation on the stuff running around; it may have been from the old golfballtypewritershop yahoo group. Someone from the https://groups.io/g/TYPEWRITERS may have a lead on a unit or at least memories of it. The hard part is going to find one of the reader units. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 29 09:40:38 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:40:38 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/21 7:21 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The hard part is going to find one of the reader units. > Digi-Data made them https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662523 Sadly, whoever cataloged this had no idea it was for IBM MT/ST tapes so there is no mention of MT/ST in the catalog record so I had to search every physical object record I donated to find it. From rich.cini at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 09:55:33 2021 From: rich.cini at gmail.com (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:55:33 -0400 Subject: Rich Alderson on-list? Message-ID: Is RichA still on-list? If so, could you drop me a note off-list. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://cini.classiccmp.org http://altair32.classiccmp.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 29 11:15:14 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:15:14 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> Here's the MT/ST typewriter setup https://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/.a/6a00d8341c464853ef01901bc4e1f6970b-500wi Here's a brochure for the S/360 reader: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-ProdAnn/2495-5.pdf Here's a training guide for the MT/ST: https://ia800805.us.archive.org/26/items/IBM-MTSC-TrainingGuide/IBM%20Magnetic%20Tape%20Selectric%20Composer%20training%20guide.pdf FWIW Chuck From rsmilward at frontier.com Thu Jul 29 11:45:39 2021 From: rsmilward at frontier.com (Richard Milward) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:45:39 -0400 Subject: IBM PC diagnostics disks References: <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2.ref@frontier.com> Message-ID: <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2@frontier.com> I have these 5-1/4" diagnostics disks but no need for them. If you're interested, I'll send them to you for the cost of the postage from Durham, NC. * Diagnostics for IBM Personal Computer AT, ver. 2.03 copyright 1981, 1986 maroon disk label, p/n 6183111 * Advanced Diagnostics, ver. 2.20, copyright 1981, 1986 dark blue label, p/n 6139804 They are in excellent physical condition. Sorry, I don't have the manuals. (I used to work for a ComputerLand store in '81-'82 and probably acquired them there.) They might be available for download somewhere, but these are the physical, displayable versions. **Richard From mhuffstutter at outlook.com Thu Jul 29 12:08:44 2021 From: mhuffstutter at outlook.com (Mark Huffstutter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:08:44 +0000 Subject: IBM PC diagnostics disks In-Reply-To: <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2@frontier.com> References: <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2.ref@frontier.com>, <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2@frontier.com> Message-ID: Hi Richard, I could use them if they are still available, I have the very nice binder manual for them, minus the disks! Thank You, Mark ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Richard Milward via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 9:45 AM To: Classic Computer Subject: IBM PC diagnostics disks I have these 5-1/4" diagnostics disks but no need for them. If you're interested, I'll send them to you for the cost of the postage from Durham, NC. * Diagnostics for IBM Personal Computer AT, ver. 2.03 copyright 1981, 1986 maroon disk label, p/n 6183111 * Advanced Diagnostics, ver. 2.20, copyright 1981, 1986 dark blue label, p/n 6139804 They are in excellent physical condition. Sorry, I don't have the manuals. (I used to work for a ComputerLand store in '81-'82 and probably acquired them there.) They might be available for download somewhere, but these are the physical, displayable versions. **Richard From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 29 12:15:14 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:15:14 -0700 Subject: IBM PC diagnostics disks In-Reply-To: References: <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2.ref@frontier.com> <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2@frontier.com> Message-ID: <0ebd9e62-e5c6-ecc6-d32e-f596756e6725@bitsavers.org> On 7/29/21 10:08 AM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > Hi Richard, > I could use them if they are still available, I have the very nice binder manual for them, minus the disks! > Don't store diskettes in vinyl sleeves. The plasticiser leaches out of the vinyl onto the surface of the diskettes. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 29 12:46:17 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:46:17 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> Message-ID: A link I forgot to include that gives a flavor of how the tapes are used: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED112083.pdf Curious thing is that was no take-up reel on the MT/ST; the 100 feet of tape simply was ejected loose and later rewound back into the cartridge. --Chuck From mhuffstutter at outlook.com Thu Jul 29 13:22:16 2021 From: mhuffstutter at outlook.com (Mark Huffstutter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:22:16 +0000 Subject: IBM PC diagnostics disks In-Reply-To: <0ebd9e62-e5c6-ecc6-d32e-f596756e6725@bitsavers.org> References: <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2.ref@frontier.com> <11388420-20ac-46c3-9618-d5d68f600fe2@frontier.com> <0ebd9e62-e5c6-ecc6-d32e-f596756e6725@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yes, I sadly, learned that important lesson years ago, after finding My "Original" Original PC DOS diskette set pretty much destroyed, left in The folders in storage for too long..... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 10:15 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IBM PC diagnostics disks On 7/29/21 10:08 AM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote: > Hi Richard, > I could use them if they are still available, I have the very nice binder manual for them, minus the disks! > Don't store diskettes in vinyl sleeves. The plasticiser leaches out of the vinyl onto the surface of the diskettes. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 29 16:54:51 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF - west? Message-ID: I heard a rumor that VCF is going to happen again! But, I have seen NO MENTION of that on this mailing list. Is it happening? Will everybody be there? It is now relatively short notice, and between that, not having a station wagon or van, and health issues, I won't be able to pack up and bring a suitable mass of stuff to peddle on consignment. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mhuffstutter at outlook.com Thu Jul 29 17:01:58 2021 From: mhuffstutter at outlook.com (Mark Huffstutter) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:01:58 +0000 Subject: VCF - west? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It sure is, Fred! I bought My tickets, and now it looks likely I won't be able to attend........ It's coming right up. https://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/ Mark -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 2:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: VCF - west? I heard a rumor that VCF is going to happen again! But, I have seen NO MENTION of that on this mailing list. Is it happening? Will everybody be there? It is now relatively short notice, and between that, not having a station wagon or van, and health issues, I won't be able to pack up and bring a suitable mass of stuff to peddle on consignment. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 29 17:16:33 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF - west! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, Mark Huffstutter wrote: > It sure is, Fred! I bought My tickets, and now it looks likely I won't be able to attend........ > It's coming right up. > https://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/ GREAT! That says: Saturday, August 7 (2021) 10:00 - 6:00 Sunday, August 8 9:00 - 5:00 From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jul 29 17:18:50 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:18:50 -0600 Subject: VCF - west! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, Mark Huffstutter wrote: > > It sure is, Fred! I bought My tickets, and now it looks likely I won't > be able to attend........ > > It's coming right up. > > https://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/ > > GREAT! > > That says: > Saturday, August 7 (2021) 10:00 - 6:00 > Sunday, August 8 9:00 - 5:00 > Sadly, that's the one weekend all summer and fall that I can't get away... :( Warner > From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 29 20:22:18 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:22:18 -0700 Subject: Rich Alderson on-list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99127CEE-37AA-4F16-BC9C-D620078C14B8@avanthar.com> On Jul 29, 2021, at 7:55 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > Is RichA still on-list? If so, could you drop me a note off-list. Thanks! I knew I?d seen him posting somewhere recently, but couldn?t figure out where this morning. I just happened to notice a recent USENET post of his on comp.os.vms. Though alt.sys.pdp10 might be a better group to try and reach him on. Zane From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Jul 29 20:30:48 2021 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 01:30:48 +0000 Subject: Rich Alderson on-list? In-Reply-To: <99127CEE-37AA-4F16-BC9C-D620078C14B8@avanthar.com> References: , <99127CEE-37AA-4F16-BC9C-D620078C14B8@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Good idea, Zane, thanks. I sometimes forget about the alt.sys groups. http://cini.classiccmp.org/ Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 9:22:18 PM To: Richard Cini ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Rich Alderson on-list? On Jul 29, 2021, at 7:55 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > Is RichA still on-list? If so, could you drop me a note off-list. Thanks! I knew I?d seen him posting somewhere recently, but couldn?t figure out where this morning. I just happened to notice a recent USENET post of his on comp.os.vms. Though alt.sys.pdp10 might be a better group to try and reach him on. Zane From jimliu at umich.edu Fri Jul 30 13:02:23 2021 From: jimliu at umich.edu (James Liu) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:02:23 -0400 Subject: Help reading a 9 track tape Message-ID: Hi, I have been lurking for a few years, but thought I'd finally speak up as I just received a 9 track tape purportedly containing the source code to Schoonschip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoonschip). This is a 2400' reel recorded at 1600 bpi based on the labels, and a cursory examination suggests that it is still in pretty good shape (although I am not sure how it was stored over the years). Here is a picture of the tape: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JgY8QdVDchxubUz39jYn86gEczSvFhcZ/view?usp=sharing We no longer have any equipment that can read the tape, so I was wondering if anyone may be willing to help or if anyone had suggestions on where to go to get it read. Thanks! - jim -- James T. Liu, Professor of Physics 3409 Randall Laboratory, 450 Church Street, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1040 Tel: 734 763-4314 Fax: 734 763-2213 Email: jimliu at umich.edu From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 16:35:10 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:35:10 -0400 Subject: Skew vs. interleave Message-ID: There's a small discussion on S100computers about the terms 'skew' and 'interleave'. In CP/M documentation 'skew' refers to what's usually called interleave these days, i.e. offsetting sectors on a track to compensate for the fact that by the time the computer has processed a given sector the next one has already passed by, so that the computer has to wait an entire revolution for it to pass by the head again; in other documentation as in Chuck's 22disk for example this is also called 'interleave'. However, in later documentation the meaning of 'skew' seems to have changed to refer to the offset of sectors between adjacent tracks to compensate for the time required to step the head. Can anyone (Fred, Chuck?) shed some light on this apparent double meaning of 'skew'? And if skew was used to describe sector interleave then what was the offsetting of sectors between tracks called? Inquiring minds need to know ;-) m From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 17:56:32 2021 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:56:32 -0500 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 29, 2021, at 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > A link I forgot to include that gives a flavor of how the tapes are used: > > https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED112083.pdf > > Curious thing is that was no take-up reel on the MT/ST; the 100 feet of > tape simply was ejected loose and later rewound back into the cartridge. > > > --Chuck All, thanks for the references and background. I guess the first hurdle for the library is if there?s even data present. I passed on the suggestion of liquid mag developer as something ?easy? to try. With all of the pet projects documented on the net (ranging from the esoteric to the absurd) it?s interesting that no one has tackled this one yet. -C From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 30 18:00:34 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 16:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skew vs. interleave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > There's a small discussion on S100computers about the terms 'skew' and > 'interleave'. > In CP/M documentation 'skew' refers to what's usually called interleave > these days, i.e. offsetting sectors on a track to compensate for the fact > that by the time the computer has processed a given sector the next one has > already passed by, so that the computer has to wait an entire revolution > for it to pass by the head again; in other documentation as in Chuck's > 22disk for example this is also called 'interleave'. > However, in later documentation the meaning of 'skew' seems to have changed > to refer to the offset of sectors between adjacent tracks to compensate for > the time required to step the head. > Can anyone (Fred, Chuck?) shed some light on this apparent double meaning > of 'skew'? And if skew was used to describe sector interleave then what was > the offsetting of sectors between tracks called? > Inquiring minds need to know ;-) Good question. You obviously understand the issue, but others might not. So, here is the background: It is not the only item where each company has their own name. What to "granule", "block", "allocation unit" have in common? How can they get away with making up their own names for everything? MS-DOS has a "File Allocation Table" that consists of a linked list of 12 bit entries. Not all are 12 bit. What is it called on Coco? Mac? "Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC"? When reading multiple sectors, after reading one sector, and going back for the next one, a fast system can then read the next one, but, if it takes too long to process before reading again, the beginning of the next sector may have already gone by, and you have to wait a full revolution of the disk before you can get it. On a 300RPM disk, a revolution is 200 ms. (1/300 of a minute) On a 360RPM disk (1.2M and 8"), a revolution is 167ms (1/36 of a minute) That's enough of a delay to want to do something about it. Other than making the whole system faster, a simple solution is to rearrange the sectors. Instead of 1 2 3 4 5 if the sectors were stored on the disk as 1 4 2 5 3 or even 1 5 4 3 2 then when going back for the next sector, you would wait part of a revolution, instead of the whole revolution. Some called that "skew", some called it "interleave", some called it "sector sequence". It is a physical interleaving of the sectors. It only requires that FORMAT put them on the disk in a different sequence (trivially easy). For reading and writing, it doesn't matter, and can be ignored, since your BIOS or FDC read will look for sector #1, then #1, then #3, ... and will wait patiently until the sector with the right "header" comes around But, there is another related way to do the same thing. Instead of rearranging the physical sequence of the sectors, use them in a different order. With the physical sectors still in order of 1 2 3 4 5 When writing a file, you could put the first data in sector 1, then put the next data in sector 3, then 5, then 2, then 4. That is called "logical interleave" It does mean that the software that reads the file needs to know to read 1 3 5 2 4 , and then assemble the file accordingly. If you have an "alien" disk, that you are not yet familiar with, and the sectors are in non-sequential order, then it probably uses a physical interleave, and your software can go ahead and read a 1 2 3 4 5 sequence. But, if the sectors on the disk are in 1 2 3 4 5 order, then, is it assuming that you can read that fast? or that you don't mind waiting a full revolution between sector reads? OR is it using the sectors in a "logical interleave" sequence? Well, you could read the file, and see whether it makes sense. Or, find a file on the disk that is text, a programming source file, or something else that you are familiar with, such as sequential data. Read a sector, and look for text at the end of the sector, particularly incomplete word, then look at the other sectors to see which sector has the rest of that word (called, "looking for half a worm"). Sometimes, you may need to do a lot of that to find the sequence. OK, that was "Interleave", which used to occasionally be called "skew". But, there is another use of the word "skew". Later on, after the interleave was "solved", people looked for other ways to avoid wasted time. When you finish reading a track, and step to the next track, will you ba able to read in time for the first sector? Or will you have to wait an entire revolution for it to come around again? To speed that up, some systems start each track at a different point: 1 2 3 4 5 2 3 4 5 1 3 4 5 1 2 4 5 1 2 3 5 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 5 For reading or writing, it doesn't matter, since your BIOS or FDC read looks for a sector number and doesn't care about order. For FORMAT, it means a different sector sequence on each track. So, we have two concepts, and two words, and inconsistent choices of the words. One way to think of it was that sector sequence was called two different names. But, when people added in offsetting the beginning of the next track, "skew" seemed to make sense as a name for that, and that "interleave" would then make more sense for simple sector sequence, calling for asking MiniTru to go back and retroactively change the word "skew" to "interleave" in all of the oldest documentation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 30 18:12:03 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 16:12:03 -0700 Subject: Skew vs. interleave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4014bb38-8248-35a7-80ef-16c99ed5187d@sydex.com> On 7/30/21 2:35 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > There's a small discussion on S100computers about the terms 'skew' and > 'interleave'. > > In CP/M documentation 'skew' refers to what's usually called interleave > these days, i.e. offsetting sectors on a track to compensate for the fact > that by the time the computer has processed a given sector the next one has > already passed by, so that the computer has to wait an entire revolution > for it to pass by the head again; in other documentation as in Chuck's > 22disk for example this is also called 'interleave'. > > However, in later documentation the meaning of 'skew' seems to have changed > to refer to the offset of sectors between adjacent tracks to compensate for > the time required to step the head. > > Can anyone (Fred, Chuck?) shed some light on this apparent double meaning > of 'skew'? And if skew was used to describe sector interleave then what was > the offsetting of sectors between tracks called? The CP/M definition of "skew" was the first time I'd ever heard of using it in that manner. 22Disk's use of "SKEW" was a late cop-out for formatting only. I probably should have used the word INTERLEAVE, but that had already been used in the documentation. I ran out of synonyms. In any case, unless you're formatting floppies, the keyword doesn't matter--and in fact, is omitted for most of them. Mea maxima culpa. The term "interleave" perfectly describes the mechanism. At a 3:1 interleave, reading sectors consecutively takes three revolutions, as the sectors for each revolution are *interleaved* with those of the other two revolution. "Skew", or offsetting the start of a track perfectly corresponds to the dictionary definition of (noun) "slant" or "bias", which is what it is--the track organization is the same as the previous and following tracks, but it's rotated/slanted with respect to the previous and succeeding tracks. Think of it this way, you have a stack of cardboard discs whose faces are divided into numbered segment. With the discs stacked up, draw a vertical line on the side of the stack from top to bottom. Now rotate each disc slightly with respect its predecessor, such that the outside vertical line looks slanted or twisted. Hence "skew". I've run into formats where "skew" differs not only from side-to-side, but also differently from cylinder-to-cylinder. In magnetic tape, "skew" refers to the relative misalignment of bit cells in a given frame. Lots of attention is paid to "deskewing" hardware. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 30 18:21:21 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 16:21:21 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> On 7/30/21 3:56 PM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > With all of the pet projects documented on the net (ranging from the esoteric to the absurd) it?s interesting that no one has tackled this one yet. -C Not really--it's very old technology, (1964), of limited capacity (about 20 KB per tape), was a hideously expensive way to buy a typewriter (about USD$7000 in 1964, or about USD$61,000 today), used almost exclusively in large corporate offices to create form letters and documents. In other words, it was not intended as an archival medium. The effort required in preparing a document was considerable (one used the mini-keypad for various functions). For a memo, it was easiest to use the typewriter as a typewriter. There are more interesting things to look at. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 30 18:36:46 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 16:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Not really--it's very old technology, (1964), of limited capacity (about > 20 KB per tape), was a hideously expensive way to buy a typewriter > (about USD$7000 in 1964, or about USD$61,000 today), used almost > exclusively in large corporate offices to create form letters and > documents. In other words, it was not intended as an archival medium. > The effort required in preparing a document was considerable (one used > the mini-keypad for various functions). For a memo, it was easiest to > use the typewriter as a typewriter. > There are more interesting things to look at. Well, form letters are "important". But, once microcomputer word processing matured, they could be done easily and much better. An acquaintance was working on creating an emulation of the MT/ST, as a way for those who were familiar with the MT/ST and/or actually liked it, to be able to continue unchanged on a microcomputer. But, then he started adding features. Besides delaying the completion until it was no longer relevant, it was suggested that he change the name from "MT/ST" (pronounced "empty ST") to "FULL ST". From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 30 19:39:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:39:45 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> On 7/30/21 4:36 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Well, form letters are "important". > But, once microcomputer word processing matured, they could be done > easily and much better. > > An acquaintance was working on creating an emulation of the MT/ST, as a > way for those who were familiar with the MT/ST and/or actually liked it, > to be able to continue unchanged on a microcomputer. > > But, then he started adding features.? Besides delaying the completion > until it was no longer relevant, it was suggested that he change the > name from "MT/ST" (pronounced "empty ST") to "FULL ST". One of the shortcomings of the MT/ST when compared to word processors is the lack of a good "mailmerge" option. You could code a stop code on the tape, where the typewriter would allow for manual fill-in-the-blanks operation, but that gets pretty cumbersome when dealing with hundreds of copies. Superseded by the MC/ST system, the "mag card" Selectric in 1969. Far more convenient and better integrated into the typewriter itself (no separate keypad). The MC/ST II in 1973 introduced the ability to "batch" up to 50 cards. Here's a promo film from the period, narrated by the guy driving his road yacht with the AM radio and chatting about it. https://youtu.be/bW_jJjUarp0 --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jul 30 19:47:02 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 20:47:02 -0400 Subject: Skew vs. interleave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <071B478C-B0AB-4490-8684-658A9DD24C30@comcast.net> > On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:35 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > There's a small discussion on S100computers about the terms 'skew' and > 'interleave'. > > In CP/M documentation 'skew' refers to what's usually called interleave > these days, i.e. offsetting sectors on a track to compensate for the fact > that by the time the computer has processed a given sector the next one has > already passed by, so that the computer has to wait an entire revolution > for it to pass by the head again; in other documentation as in Chuck's > 22disk for example this is also called 'interleave'. > > However, in later documentation the meaning of 'skew' seems to have changed > to refer to the offset of sectors between adjacent tracks to compensate for > the time required to step the head. I've only ever seen the term "skew" with that second meaning. The first thing you mentioned in my experience is always called "interleave". For example, the DEC RX50 has 2:1 interleave and 3 sector skew. Interleave is normally written as the physical sector number difference of two logically adjacent sectors (so 2:1 means there is one other sector between logical sector 0 and logical sector 1). In one place (David Gesswein's MFM emulator) I've seen it used the other way around, n:1 meaning that logical sector n is physically immediately after logical sector 0. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 30 20:17:29 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 18:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <04341f76-83f1-418c-b1a2-fe75f41c708b@email.android.com> References: <04341f76-83f1-418c-b1a2-fe75f41c708b@email.android.com> Message-ID: Yep. And, it was not appreciated when I suggested an interim release between the MT/ST emulator and "Full-ST" to be called "Half Full ST" On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, grif615 at mindspring.com wrote: > Scope Creep.. no telling how many projects died in stalled development. > > On Jul 30, 2021 16:36, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Not really--it's very old technology, (1964), of limited > capacity (about > > 20 KB per tape), was a hideously expensive way to buy a > typewriter > > (about USD$7000 in 1964, or about USD$61,000 today), used > almost > > exclusively in large corporate offices to create form > letters and > > documents. In other words, it was not intended as an > archival medium. > > The effort required in preparing a document was > considerable (one used > > the mini-keypad for various functions). For a memo, it was > easiest to > > use the typewriter as a typewriter. > > There are more interesting things to look at. > > Well, form letters are "important". > But, once microcomputer word processing matured, they could > be done easily > and much better. > > An acquaintance was working on creating an emulation of the > MT/ST, as a > way for those who were familiar with the MT/ST and/or > actually liked it, > to be able to continue unchanged on a microcomputer. > > But, then he started adding features. Besides delaying the > completion > until it was no longer relevant, it was suggested that he > change the name > from "MT/ST" (pronounced "empty ST") to "FULL ST". From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 20:20:40 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:20:40 -0400 Subject: Skew vs. interleave In-Reply-To: <071B478C-B0AB-4490-8684-658A9DD24C30@comcast.net> References: <071B478C-B0AB-4490-8684-658A9DD24C30@comcast.net> Message-ID: Same here. I've spent many happy hours in 'the good old days' adjusting 'interleave' of ST512/406 MFM hard disks to find the optimum setting for a particular system/controller but had never even heard the term 'skew' until 5 or 6 years ago while playing with odd format diskettes, and then it was in the track offset sense. So I was surprised that some folks in the S100/CPM world use 'skew' in the interleave sense, apparently because the CP/M documentation used it that way. I'm always surprised how a field so dependent on rigid logical concepts and definitions has so many inconsistencies. Thanks everyone! m On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:47 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:35 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > There's a small discussion on S100computers about the terms 'skew' and > > 'interleave'. > > > > In CP/M documentation 'skew' refers to what's usually called interleave > > these days, i.e. offsetting sectors on a track to compensate for the fact > > that by the time the computer has processed a given sector the next one > has > > already passed by, so that the computer has to wait an entire revolution > > for it to pass by the head again; in other documentation as in Chuck's > > 22disk for example this is also called 'interleave'. > > > > However, in later documentation the meaning of 'skew' seems to have > changed > > to refer to the offset of sectors between adjacent tracks to compensate > for > > the time required to step the head. > > I've only ever seen the term "skew" with that second meaning. The first > thing you mentioned in my experience is always called "interleave". For > example, the DEC RX50 has 2:1 interleave and 3 sector skew. > > Interleave is normally written as the physical sector number difference of > two logically adjacent sectors (so 2:1 means there is one other sector > between logical sector 0 and logical sector 1). In one place (David > Gesswein's MFM emulator) I've seen it used the other way around, n:1 > meaning that logical sector n is physically immediately after logical > sector 0. > > paul > > > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 20:22:01 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 22:22:01 -0300 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2021-07-30 9:39 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > One of the shortcomings of the MT/ST when compared to word processors is > the lack of a good "mailmerge" option. You could code a stop code on > the tape, where the typewriter would allow for manual fill-in-the-blanks > operation, but that gets pretty cumbersome when dealing with hundreds of > copies. > > Superseded by the MC/ST system, the "mag card" Selectric in 1969. Far > more convenient and better integrated into the typewriter itself (no > separate keypad). The MC/ST II in 1973 introduced the ability to > "batch" up to 50 cards. > > Here's a promo film from the period, narrated by the guy driving his > road yacht with the AM radio and chatting about it. > > https://youtu.be/bW_jJjUarp0 > > --Chuck > The MT/ST did pretty good for being a electro-mechanical device,all the logic was relays in it.? I seem to recall many years ago one of the old OP guys telling me that it write in stripes across the tape. It would have to be some very simple format because it would be hard to have the thing sync on headers with only a little relay logic. The mag card machines had the advantage of by the time it came along electronics was a lot more compact so they could stuff a much more capable controller in the box.? Towards the end of the mag card days there was even a machine that had a daisy wheel typewriter on it. Paul. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 20:23:09 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:23:09 -0400 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <04341f76-83f1-418c-b1a2-fe75f41c708b@email.android.com> Message-ID: And here I've always thought of you as a pessimist who would have called it 'Half Empty ST'... On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:17 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Yep. > > And, it was not appreciated when I suggested an interim release between > the MT/ST emulator and "Full-ST" to be called "Half Full ST" > > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, grif615 at mindspring.com wrote: > > > Scope Creep.. no telling how many projects died in stalled development. > > > > On Jul 30, 2021 16:36, Fred Cisin via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > Not really--it's very old technology, (1964), of limited > > capacity (about > > > 20 KB per tape), was a hideously expensive way to buy a > > typewriter > > > (about USD$7000 in 1964, or about USD$61,000 today), used > > almost > > > exclusively in large corporate offices to create form > > letters and > > > documents. In other words, it was not intended as an > > archival medium. > > > The effort required in preparing a document was > > considerable (one used > > > the mini-keypad for various functions). For a memo, it was > > easiest to > > > use the typewriter as a typewriter. > > > There are more interesting things to look at. > > > > Well, form letters are "important". > > But, once microcomputer word processing matured, they could > > be done easily > > and much better. > > > > An acquaintance was working on creating an emulation of the > > MT/ST, as a > > way for those who were familiar with the MT/ST and/or > > actually liked it, > > to be able to continue unchanged on a microcomputer. > > > > But, then he started adding features. Besides delaying the > > completion > > until it was no longer relevant, it was suggested that he > > change the name > > from "MT/ST" (pronounced "empty ST") to "FULL ST". > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 30 20:32:47 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 18:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <04341f76-83f1-418c-b1a2-fe75f41c708b@email.android.com> Message-ID: I would think that an engineer would realize that the glass is neither half-full NOR half-empty; it is merely that the glass was spec'ed with the wrong size. Yes, I am too cynical to be in marketing. On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, Mike Stein wrote: > And here I've always thought of you as a pessimist who would have called it > 'Half Empty ST'... > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:17 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> Yep. >> >> And, it was not appreciated when I suggested an interim release between >> the MT/ST emulator and "Full-ST" to be called "Half Full ST" >> >> >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, grif615 at mindspring.com wrote: >> >>> Scope Creep.. no telling how many projects died in stalled development. >>> >>> On Jul 30, 2021 16:36, Fred Cisin via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> > Not really--it's very old technology, (1964), of limited >>> capacity (about >>> > 20 KB per tape), was a hideously expensive way to buy a >>> typewriter >>> > (about USD$7000 in 1964, or about USD$61,000 today), used >>> almost >>> > exclusively in large corporate offices to create form >>> letters and >>> > documents. In other words, it was not intended as an >>> archival medium. >>> > The effort required in preparing a document was >>> considerable (one used >>> > the mini-keypad for various functions). For a memo, it was >>> easiest to >>> > use the typewriter as a typewriter. >>> > There are more interesting things to look at. >>> >>> Well, form letters are "important". >>> But, once microcomputer word processing matured, they could >>> be done easily >>> and much better. >>> >>> An acquaintance was working on creating an emulation of the >>> MT/ST, as a >>> way for those who were familiar with the MT/ST and/or >>> actually liked it, >>> to be able to continue unchanged on a microcomputer. >>> >>> But, then he started adding features. Besides delaying the >>> completion >>> until it was no longer relevant, it was suggested that he >>> change the name >>> from "MT/ST" (pronounced "empty ST") to "FULL ST". From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 30 21:34:14 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 19:34:14 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/30/21 6:22 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > The MT/ST did pretty good for being a electro-mechanical device,all the > logic was relays in it.? I seem to recall many years ago one of the old > OP guys telling me that it write in stripes across the tape. It would > have to be some very simple format because it would be hard to have the > thing sync on headers with only a little relay logic. Like a motion picture film projector. Brings the tape to a complete stop for each character and then scans across it with a single head; going in, the character is read, going out, the character just read is checked. I assume (but am not sure) that if the check fails, a retry is attempted. The head moves at 45 ips and records bits at a 45 degree angle relative to the tape axis. This is so the tape can be scanned without moving the head for a mark in the control track (reading parallel to the axis of tape movement) or reading characters with the tape stopped (reading orthogonal to the tape movement. Obviously, precise tape positioning is important (even at 20 cpi), hence the sprocket feed. In off-list conversations with others, I keep trying to impress on the younger folks that this is basically an electro-mechanical device with heavy emphasis on mechanics. After all, the people who serviced these things were typewriter repair people. I doubt that the innards of the MT/ST were much more complex than those of the Selectric itself. (One of these days, I'll get up the nerve to replace the motor drive belt in my Correcting Selectric III). But when you've grown up with microprocessors, I guess it can be hard to envision a world with only rudimentary electronics. --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jul 30 23:31:53 2021 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LSSM quick update Message-ID: The A/C is in and running! Tomorrow and Sunday we reassemble the exhibit floor and clean up the mess, just in time for the 60-person group tour on Monday. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA Thanks to all who contributed to the new A/C! From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 00:10:12 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 01:10:12 -0400 Subject: LSSM quick update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is fantastic, so fast to get it done. B On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 12:32 AM Mike Loewen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > The A/C is in and running! Tomorrow and Sunday we reassemble the > exhibit floor and clean up the mess, just in time for the 60-person > group tour on Monday. > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > Thanks to all who contributed to the new A/C! > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 31 00:56:05 2021 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 05:56:05 +0000 Subject: Ian Hirschsohn - DISSPLA, Superset Inc. and sad news Message-ID: As some here know, I collect some dusty deck fortran graphics. We have MOVIE.BYU up and running! (Thanks Douglas Taylor and Emanuel Steibler). Ian built AMD 2901 bit slice hardware to run his graphics, it was called SuperSet, and was very quick for the 1980s. Architecture was 48 bit, A=B op C, similar to DSPs. Compiler processed fortran to this 48 bit 2900 hardware (he wrote the compiler too). Small package, a dormitory size refrigerator with all I/O to drive plotters and graphics terminals. I went to look him up today, as he is not far from me in LA, San Diego, and a fellow R/C flier, and chat about the old Superset days, we did SIGGRAPH many times together. Well, he is dead I find out, killed last year in Mexico is what the news says, buried in a well with his wife. They went often, many times a year. Randy From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jul 31 09:36:12 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:36:12 -0500 Subject: Ian Hirschsohn - DISSPLA, Superset Inc. and sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210731144048.3D72F4E6EF@mx2.ezwind.net> At 12:56 AM 7/31/2021, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >As some here know, I collect some dusty deck fortran graphics. We have MOVIE.BYU up and running! (Thanks Douglas Taylor and Emanuel Steibler). Once I was in the business of making 3D file format translators, and I still have code that runs under Windows that can read and write Movie.BYU format. - John From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 10:55:43 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:55:43 -0300 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2021-07-30 11:34 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/30/21 6:22 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > >> The MT/ST did pretty good for being a electro-mechanical device,all the >> logic was relays in it.? I seem to recall many years ago one of the old >> OP guys telling me that it write in stripes across the tape. It would >> have to be some very simple format because it would be hard to have the >> thing sync on headers with only a little relay logic. > Like a motion picture film projector. Brings the tape to a complete > stop for each character and then scans across it with a single head; > going in, the character is read, going out, the character just read is > checked. I assume (but am not sure) that if the check fails, a retry is > attempted. The head moves at 45 ips and records bits at a 45 degree > angle relative to the tape axis. This is so the tape can be scanned > without moving the head for a mark in the control track (reading > parallel to the axis of tape movement) or reading characters with the > tape stopped (reading orthogonal to the tape movement. Obviously, > precise tape positioning is important (even at 20 cpi), hence the > sprocket feed. > > In off-list conversations with others, I keep trying to impress on the > younger folks that this is basically an electro-mechanical device with > heavy emphasis on mechanics. After all, the people who serviced these > things were typewriter repair people. I doubt that the innards of the > MT/ST were much more complex than those of the Selectric itself. (One of > these days, I'll get up the nerve to replace the motor drive belt in my > Correcting Selectric III). > > But when you've grown up with microprocessors, I guess it can be hard to > envision a world with only rudimentary electronics. > > --Chuck I changed lots of motor belts when I first started as a CE, but not on OP selectrics but on selectric terminals.? The OP selectric used a relatively weak motor that would stall if the mechanism jammed, but the terminals used a stronger capacitor start motor that when the mechanism jammed? it would either break the belt or tear the teeth off it at the motor pulley.? Changing the belts on the terminals was even more fun because of all the added contact blocks to make it function as a terminal. The ones I spent the most time one the first few years where banking terminals the control for them was electronic, low density probably on the scale of early 360 computers, and was very solid so all of the time was spent fixing mechanical issues with the selectric. It was not helped by these terminals having a small core buffer so messages would be buffered by the control unit and then printed on the selectric as fast as the mechanism would go which contributed to wear.? The selectrics on these terminals where just standard OP selectrics with solenoids (magnets) and contacts hung on them to make them work as an I/O.? I suspect the MT/ST had a similar typer on them and I feel for the guys who had to maintain them because I am sure MT/ST customers when a lot more picky about print quality that terminal customers, and then there was the composer version of the MT/ST, I am told that composer customer where super picky about print quality. It seems to me that the mag card machines had a version of selectric I/O that was designed as an I/O unit with key parts of the mechanism beefed up to improve reliability.? Some of the selectric terminals I worked on had a similar mechanism that separated the keyboard from the printer, it was still a standard selectric keyboard but the printer did not take a cycle when? a key was pressed.? The open transfer contacts where replaced by reed switches and magnets so they did not get fouled by oil and grease like the open contacts. Since there was still a few 360s around when I started I also got to see the inside of a 1052 a few times, they are a really stripped down keyboardless selectric.? They used a function cam to space and since they did not have a tab rack they would space a lot which would cause the space cam to wear, I remember one that was so worn? that when it cycled it wobbled very noticeably, the customer would not let us replace it as this was the console for the 360 and they did not want it unavailable for the time it would take to replace it.? Some customers apparently would have a spare 1052 onsite.? The keyboard on the 1052 is the keyboard from a keypunch machine. So yes even though I started in 1979 there was still a requirement for having good mechanical skill as well as knowing electronics to fix DP equipment, even for the guys looking after mainframes and associated I/O.? Card equipment was still common and the most common printer was 1403 with it hydraulic paper feed.? 3890 cheque sorters arrived around the same time and the mechanics of them was pretty maintenance intensive. Paul. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 31 11:19:27 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 09:19:27 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/31/21 8:55 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > Since there was still a few 360s around when I started I also got to see > the inside of a 1052 a few times, they are a really stripped down > keyboardless selectric.? They used a function cam to space and since > they did not have a tab rack they would space a lot which would cause > the space cam to wear, I remember one that was so worn? that when it > cycled it wobbled very noticeably, the customer would not let us replace > it as this was the console for the 360 and they did not want it > unavailable for the time it would take to replace it.? Some customers > apparently would have a spare 1052 onsite.? The keyboard on the 1052 is > the keyboard from a keypunch machine. Did the 1620 Mod II and the 1130 use the same Selectric mechanism as the S/260 1052? I remember that the Model B on the CADET always felt as if it would shake itself to pieces every time the carriage returned. And given the relatively high failure rate for motor drive belts, why did IBM persist in making replacement such a bugger of a job? --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jul 31 10:08:42 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:08:42 -0500 Subject: Help reading a 9 track tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/30/21 1:02 PM, James Liu via cctech wrote: > Hi, > > I have been lurking for a few years, but thought I'd finally speak up > as I just received a 9 track tape purportedly containing the source > code to Schoonschip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoonschip). This > is a 2400' reel recorded at 1600 bpi based on the labels, and a > cursory examination suggests that it is still in pretty good shape > (although I am not sure how it was stored over the years). Here is a > picture of the tape: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JgY8QdVDchxubUz39jYn86gEczSvFhcZ/view?usp=sharing > > We no longer have any equipment that can read the tape, so I was > wondering if anyone may be willing to help or if anyone had > suggestions on where to go to get it read. Thanks! > Where are you?? I have a CDC Keystone drive that worked last time I fired it up, and I have it interfaced? to a Linux PC.? I'm in Missouri. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 31 10:37:35 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 08:37:35 -0700 Subject: Help reading a 9 track tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46b12494-0f78-4e9e-91b0-5834636c40e9@sydex.com> On 7/31/21 8:08 AM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > Where are you?? I have a CDC Keystone drive that worked last time I > fired it up, > > and I have it interfaced? to a Linux PC.? I'm in Missouri. I wonder if the OP is in the Netherlands, Schoonschip being a Dutch product. In any case, I'd advise you to determine what brand media the thing uses. I'm struggling now with a Wabash "Mira" tape and it isn't pretty. About the same as Wabash floppies of the same time. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 31 10:45:44 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 08:45:44 -0700 Subject: Help reading a 9 track tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bcc13b3-9c42-4282-1b2b-5323688eb4e5@sydex.com> On 7/31/21 8:08 AM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: I'll add a thought that if this is a CDC 6000-system tape written in the 1970s, it could well be 7-track, regardless of the manufacturer's label. Up through the 1970s, 7 track tape drives were very common on CDC systems. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 31 10:55:47 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 08:55:47 -0700 Subject: Help reading a 9 track tape In-Reply-To: <46b12494-0f78-4e9e-91b0-5834636c40e9@sydex.com> References: <46b12494-0f78-4e9e-91b0-5834636c40e9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7a57ec90-9091-6b5c-8a2c-705fbdf1a165@bitsavers.org> If you care about what is on that tape, send it to Chuck for recovery. I wouldn't trust someone without a lot of experience in tape prep and recovery with something I thought was important. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jul 31 12:19:42 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:19:42 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/31/21 9:19 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/31/21 8:55 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > >> Since there was still a few 360s around when I started I also got to see >> the inside of a 1052 a few times, they are a really stripped down >> keyboardless selectric.? They used a function cam to space and since >> they did not have a tab rack they would space a lot which would cause >> the space cam to wear, I remember one that was so worn? that when it >> cycled it wobbled very noticeably, the customer would not let us replace >> it as this was the console for the 360 and they did not want it >> unavailable for the time it would take to replace it.? Some customers >> apparently would have a spare 1052 onsite.? The keyboard on the 1052 is >> the keyboard from a keypunch machine. > Did the 1620 Mod II and the 1130 use the same Selectric mechanism as the > S/260 1052? I remember that the Model B on the CADET always felt as if > it would shake itself to pieces every time the carriage returned. I was "loaned" a 1052 when I was in college and it was built like a tank.? Much heavier than typical selectrics from what I could tell. I built my own 48v drivers to run it and wrote? bunch of code (8080/z80) to run it as an ASCII terminal (yea, I know). Unfortunately, I've lost all of it in various moves/purges. -- TTFN - Guy From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 12:40:24 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:40:24 -0300 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <190781a5-24fe-c3e5-50de-51cc3436a56d@gmail.com> On 2021-07-31 1:19 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/31/21 8:55 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > >> Since there was still a few 360s around when I started I also got to see >> the inside of a 1052 a few times, they are a really stripped down >> keyboardless selectric.? They used a function cam to space and since >> they did not have a tab rack they would space a lot which would cause >> the space cam to wear, I remember one that was so worn? that when it >> cycled it wobbled very noticeably, the customer would not let us replace >> it as this was the console for the 360 and they did not want it >> unavailable for the time it would take to replace it.? Some customers >> apparently would have a spare 1052 onsite.? The keyboard on the 1052 is >> the keyboard from a keypunch machine. > Did the 1620 Mod II and the 1130 use the same Selectric mechanism as the > S/260 1052? I remember that the Model B on the CADET always felt as if > it would shake itself to pieces every time the carriage returned. > > And given the relatively high failure rate for motor drive belts, why > did IBM persist in making replacement such a bugger of a job? > > --Chuck > I have never seen either of these machines but looking at pictures of them it looks like the first version of 1620 had a type bar typewriter as a console.? These type bar machine would have a common heritage with the Flexowriters both are descendants of the? Electromatic company that IBM purchased in 1932 but later sold off what became Flexowriter due to anti-trust concerns. I did find a picture of a 1620 that does appear to have a selectric for a console and it looks like it is a modified OP selectric even being in the same case sunk into the desk so I suspect that it is the first version of the selectric I/O. The console on the 1130 does however look like it is a 1052 that has been integrated into the machine. Speaking of shaking apart on carriage return, I was once preparing some cash registers for the local phone company in a room where the had a HP mini that apparent ran some terminals for their subsidiary phone company in Prince Edward Island.? This HP had an ASR-33 for a console and it seemed that it printed a line for every transaction and when it would return it would slam into the dashpot on the left frame and the whole ASR-33 would rock. This mini recorded transactions on punched tape that was taken downstairs to the main computer room where it was read into the IBM mainframe on a high speed punched tape reader that looked like a 3430? tape drive with the magnet head replaced by an optical head. With regard to the position of the belt it is where it is because the selectric mechanism is split into two parts. On the left is the cycle shaft with the cams that position the type ball and through some gears turns the print shaft that drives the ball into the paper.? right in the middle running inside the appropriately named center bearing, is the hub that has the pulley on it that is driven by the motor this turn constantly.? on the left side of the the hub there is a torrington clutch? that when tripped turns the cycle shaft to print a character.? On the right side of the hub is the operational shaft that turns all the time that have clutched cams on it to operate functions such as tab and backspace, plus another torrington clutch for carriage return, and on the extreme right a cam for shift that rotate the ball 180 degrees.? It would seem that the motor belt is positioned where it is so that the entire machine could be operated from a single motor. On OP selectrics changing the belt is not such a big deal, you take out one of the gears that drives print shaft, remove the screws that hold the bearing plate on the left end of the cycle shaft and the either back off or remove entirely the cycle shaft. It was more of a challenge on the original I/O because of the presence of contact block both at the end of the cycle shaft and under the selection latches.? The original I/O was just a modified OP selectric That other than the addition of the contacts and magnets the only other change was the beefier capacitive start motor, I have seen this motor tear the teeth off a belt on a jammed machine just by turning it on.? You did not even have to look to tell if a belt was missing teeth, they had a telltale thumping noise you could hear as soon as you got close to it. The I/O II was a lot better changing belts was pretty much the same? as an OP selectric and I don't recall having to change them as often.? The worst where the machines that where in a case like an OP selectric sunk into a desk, that case and mount just made things more difficult. Part of the fun of the banking terminals was some bank branches had the machines on the counter, right where the banks customers are, and customers would often feel obliged to offer some of their wit or wisdom while you where up to you elbows in a greasy machine.? I those days of working on greasy mechanical machine we where obliged to wear suit and tie, but greasy machines where not the worst, for that there was proof machines with their purple indelible ink used to print endorsement stamps on documents. After working on them you would have purple hands for a few days. Paul. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 31 14:22:29 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 13:22:29 -0600 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5439f385-85ce-9ea9-abb7-998b2242937b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/31/21 10:19 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Did the 1620 Mod II and the 1130 use the same Selectric mechanism as > the S/260 1052? Is the S/260 a system that I'm completely oblivious to? Or is it a typo? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 31 14:38:58 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:38:58 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <5439f385-85ce-9ea9-abb7-998b2242937b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> <5439f385-85ce-9ea9-abb7-998b2242937b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <29060796-4499-1a5e-ba90-f12e866a81d0@sydex.com> On 7/31/21 12:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/31/21 10:19 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Did the 1620 Mod II and the 1130 use the same Selectric mechanism as >> the S/260 1052? > > Is the S/260 a system that I'm completely oblivious to?? Or is it a typo? Typo--I don't see so well in the morning. Obcously, S/360 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 31 15:02:45 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 13:02:45 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <190781a5-24fe-c3e5-50de-51cc3436a56d@gmail.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> <190781a5-24fe-c3e5-50de-51cc3436a56d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <422d1985-8735-d4d4-ea7e-2e19168b9041@sydex.com> On 7/31/21 10:40 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I have never seen either of these machines but looking at pictures of > them it looks like the first version of 1620 had a type bar typewriter > as a console.? These type bar machine would have a common heritage with > the Flexowriters both are descendants of the? Electromatic company that > IBM purchased in 1932 but later sold off what became Flexowriter due to > anti-trust concerns. There were a *lot* more Model I 1620s in the wild (CADET) than Model IIs (which apparently could add and subtract without being instructed how to do it). There's a photo of a Model II typewriter on PDF page 92 here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/A26-5781-2_IBM_1620_CPU_Model_2_Nov65.pdf Shame that the Model II wasn't more popular--IBM did a lot of things right, including goodies like index registers. I think I may have seen only one Model II in the flesh--and I've never seen a 1620 with 729-II tape drives attached, much less a tape written by a 1620. The model I appeared to use a modified for use Model B electric: https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/modelb/modelb_intro.html For a couple of years, I used a Model B Executive with the split space bar. I had the best-looking memos in the department. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 31 15:31:47 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:31:47 -0600 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <29060796-4499-1a5e-ba90-f12e866a81d0@sydex.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> <5439f385-85ce-9ea9-abb7-998b2242937b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <29060796-4499-1a5e-ba90-f12e866a81d0@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0df324b3-eb71-90b7-a1e7-1db510a11c7c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/31/21 1:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Typo--I don't see so well in the morning. Obcously, S/360 ACK I would have assumed a typo, but as I get deeper and deeper into IBM, I'm finding more and more System/### than I ever heard of. So there was a non-trivial possibility that's what this was. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From steven at malikoff.com Sat Jul 31 20:23:54 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 11:23:54 +1000 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <190781a5-24fe-c3e5-50de-51cc3436a56d@gmail.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> <190781a5-24fe-c3e5-50de-51cc3436a56d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43d652225f0bc660c20ebecf2825cbad.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Paul said >Part of the fun of the banking terminals was some bank branches had the >machines on the counter, right where the banks customers are, and >customers would often feel obliged to offer some of their wit or wisdom >while you where up to you elbows in a greasy machine. I those days of >working on greasy mechanical machine we where obliged to wear suit and >tie A practice still observable on Youtube where you can marvel at a grimy oily ASR33 being stripped down and restored, all the while whilst wearing a spotless crisp ironed long-sleeve pin-striped business shirt... :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEzpYHb4p5w Steve From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 21:20:37 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 22:20:37 -0400 Subject: Branching the thread away from Compaq deskpro boards: "What We Have Lost" In-Reply-To: <936b4ddf-6cb4-317c-2d40-0b2988b943a0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <936b4ddf-6cb4-317c-2d40-0b2988b943a0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 9:21 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 7/27/21 4:27 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > This was a talk at a recent Chaos Computer Club congress: > > https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-525180-what_have_we_lost#t=1707 > > > > ? We have ended up in a world where UNIX and Windows have taken over, > > and most people have never experienced anything else. I would argue that this is totally wrong. iOS, Android and other mobile systems, with decidedly different user experiences and programming interfaces than desktop (or server) linux or windows are now the first, or maybe only, experience for many people. And even those are branching and evolving. As we get better a consumer level containerization and sandboxing, more end users are seeing chimera's like Android apps running under ChromeOs or Windows apps on macos and Linux. > Over the years, > > though, many other system designs have come and gone, and some of > > those systems have had neat ideas that were nevertheless not enough > > to achieve commercial success. We will take you on a tour of a variety > > of those systems, talking about what makes them special. > > > > In particular, we'll discuss IBM i, with emphasis on the Single > > Level Store, TIMI, and block terminals Interlisp, the Lisp Machine > > with the interface of Smalltalk OpenGenera, with a unique approach > > to UI design TRON, Japan's ambitious OS standard More may be added > > as time permits. ? > > Oh ... this looks interesting! > > > It talks about Lisp Machine OSes, which interest me, but I especially > > liked that there's a demo of Interlisp as well as the better-known > > Symbolics OpenGenera. Unlike Genera, Interlisp is now FOSS and there > > is an effort afoot to port it to modern OSes and hardware and revive > > it as a Lisp IDE. > > > > There's also a not-very-inspiring but all too rare demo of IBM > > i. It's not pretty but this descendant of OS/400 is the last living > > single-level store in active maintenance and production. > > I've been discussing OS/400 / IBM i with a friend who owns three AS/400s. > > > But the big thing that made me link to this after the discussion of > > DOS/V, Chinese Windows 3.2 and Japanese DR-DOS and DR GEM, was the > > demo of the final version of Japan's TRON OS. > > > > Most people have never heard of TRON but it was extraordinarily > > widely-used, embedded in billions of consumer electronics products. > > Well, there was also a desktop-PC version, with its own very rich > > object-oriented GUI, and this talk contains the only demo of it I've > > ever seen. > > Thank you for sharing. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 31 22:12:18 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 20:12:18 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <43d652225f0bc660c20ebecf2825cbad.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> <190781a5-24fe-c3e5-50de-51cc3436a56d@gmail.com> <43d652225f0bc660c20ebecf2825cbad.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <6b1d978b-20a0-f45a-34ed-567a9ef3e1d9@sydex.com> On 7/31/21 6:23 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > A practice still observable on Youtube where you can marvel at a grimy oily > ASR33 being stripped down and restored, all the while whilst wearing a spotless > crisp ironed long-sleeve pin-striped business shirt... :) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEzpYHb4p5w Another one comes to mind--picking out bits of shredded ribbon from a line printer type train. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Jul 31 23:36:19 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:36:19 -0700 Subject: Reading MT/ST Tapes In-Reply-To: <6b1d978b-20a0-f45a-34ed-567a9ef3e1d9@sydex.com> References: <0a9c01d78457$e67f90e0$b37eb2a0$@gmail.com> <43d7b487-2434-4597-42df-c3843ae44e78@sydex.com> <9ae0a187-7df9-e6b4-9f6a-ab18dc42ce2d@sydex.com> <97248015-1d89-3ef0-dd3e-1100e00a33f2@sydex.com> <190781a5-24fe-c3e5-50de-51cc3436a56d@gmail.com> <43d652225f0bc660c20ebecf2825cbad.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <6b1d978b-20a0-f45a-34ed-567a9ef3e1d9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8ef6e310-695b-1933-6e8b-33a60ba9f803@jwsss.com> On 7/31/2021 8:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/31/21 6:23 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > >> A practice still observable on Youtube where you can marvel at a grimy oily >> ASR33 being stripped down and restored, all the while whilst wearing a spotless >> crisp ironed long-sleeve pin-striped business shirt... :) >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEzpYHb4p5w > Another one comes to mind--picking out bits of shredded ribbon from a > line printer type train. > > --Chuck > A friend told me of? guy who prided him on the white shirt and tie sort of dress code despite it being unnecessary at a place he worked.? People would just shake their heads and just let it go. One morning, a lady he worked with stopped him short of going into a room where the printer were, and a burster.? "Johnny (or whatever)" is in there, you don't want to go in. He peeked in and a burster had shot carbon paper from about half a case of 4 ply all over the room and he was having to pick up the mess. thanks Jim From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 17:13:22 2021 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 17:13:22 -0500 Subject: Unidentified IBM Module / Package Message-ID: Does anyone recognize these IBM modules? My gut says late 50?s based on the transistor packages and font. Perhaps for a contract or military system? Thanks- Cory https://www.dropbox.com/s/izitf1lmjqwcbuo/IBM1.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/dq8macaubrechkz/IBM2.jpg?dl=0