From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 03:42:50 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:42:50 -0000 Subject: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes In-Reply-To: <3fdf0a8f-4e8f-4987-a64f-a3f00677f2d9@sydex.com> References: <3fdf0a8f-4e8f-4987-a64f-a3f00677f2d9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0a1901d7e697$ce698130$6b3c8390$@gmail.com> Chuck, I think TNMOC can read these tapes. https://www.tnmoc.org/ Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 30 November 2021 23:57 > To: CCtalk > Subject: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes > > Hey list, > > I received a note today from a fellow in London who has 2 9-track tapes that > he'd like read. Brands are CDC and BASF, so media shedding should > not be a problem. Dates are '92 and '93, so likely 1600 or 6259. The > tape seal on one (the other has no seal) is IBM-style, which may be the > system that produced the tapes. > > Any takers? Let me know if so, I'll put you in contact and you can take things > from there. > > All the best, > > --Chuck > From rice43 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 1 04:22:58 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 10:22:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes In-Reply-To: <0a1901d7e697$ce698130$6b3c8390$@gmail.com> References: <3fdf0a8f-4e8f-4987-a64f-a3f00677f2d9@sydex.com> <0a1901d7e697$ce698130$6b3c8390$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5335ba77.3d6a5.17d7584d054.Webtop.118@btinternet.com> The Centre for Computing History in Cambridge might be able to help too. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk" To: "'Chuck Guzis'" ; "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, 1 Dec, 2021 At 09:42 Subject: RE: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes Chuck, I think TNMOC can read these tapes. https://www.tnmoc.org/ Dave -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: 30 November 2021 23:57 To: CCtalk Subject: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes Hey list, I received a note today from a fellow in London who has 2 9-track tapes that he'd like read. Brands are CDC and BASF, so media shedding should not be a problem. Dates are '92 and '93, so likely 1600 or 6259. The tape seal on one (the other has no seal) is IBM-style, which may be the system that produced the tapes. Any takers? Let me know if so, I'll put you in contact and you can take things from there. All the best, --Chuck From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Dec 1 06:12:20 2021 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 07:12:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> <30DFD5AC-D8C5-4E00-AE04-9F689EBFD8FB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 11/30/2021 4:42 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban?s site: http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html >> Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did you convert to more standard gerbers? > I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it cheaper from other board houses these days. For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these. Also useful for the RK11-C. > > ?FritzM. I have Joerg Hoppe's KM11 bare boards available. He also has gerbers available at http://retrocmp.com/tools/dec-km11-maintenance-panel Todd From labomb_s at yahoo.com Wed Dec 1 09:00:52 2021 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:00:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <20211130180616.BF7C818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62223222-f1e7-5486-d990-77752395df8d@shiresoft.com> <125F84E1-D57E-4D15-8DD3-CA8C97F1B41D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <801532747.2189554.1638370852137@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, November 30, 2021, 04:24:37 PM EST, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > >Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or >did you convert to more standard gerbers? I have a gerber archive for the km11x.pcb file. If anyone can host it where it might be more broadly accessible, I'd be happy to send it along to them. Scott From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 1 11:55:07 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:55:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards Message-ID: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working It's Fritz Mueller's blog; at about the top of this page: https://fritzm.github.io/category/pdp-116.html he's just turned the machine on for the first time, and you can follow as he chases, finds and fixes CPU problems. The KB11-C/D of the -11/70 is _very_ similar to the KB11-A he was dealing with (they are _basically_ the same CPU, with a cache, and other stuff added on the other side from the CPU, on the KB11-C/D), so there are probably some good lessons to be learned. > dunno if Guy Steele Ooops; sorry, Guy - the brain is starting to drop bits. > if the particular machine the system is being built for has an FP11). > Perhaps the later BSD versions look for the FP11 on startup, and adjust > their behaviour appropriately, but I'm not familiar with them. The way user code deals with the existence/non-existence of the FP11 is pretty simple. In C (other languages probably do something similar, but I only know about C),one gives the '-f' flag to 'cc', and when 'cc' invokes the linker, on machines which don't have floating point support, it uses fcrt0: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/source/s4/fcrt0.s as the machine language startup (the thing that calls main()) instead of crt0. The difference is that fcrt0 sets the UNIX 'illegal instruction' signal, in that process, to go to a handler which emulates the FP11 instructions. In V6, as distributed, the binary of all applications which use floating point are linked this way, so they will all run OK 'as is' on a machine with no floating point (including those which don't suppport any kind of FP11, such as the -11/40). When run on a machine with an FP11, there are no illegal instruction traps, and that emulator code is just never used. I'm not sure what the deal with BSD is, for machines without an FP11; fcrt0.s is still included in BSD2.9, so maybe it's still using this approach. I have this vague recollection that at some point, floating point instruction emulation was added to the kernel, removing all the signal overhead, but that might be a bogus recollection. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 1 12:03:43 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 13:03:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards Message-ID: <20211201180343.1EE1418C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > I don't unfortunately have any light masks Dave Bridgham and I were manoeuvreing to be able to produce clones of the one you loaned me (he has access to a computer-controlled milling machine at his maker-space or whatever the name is for them now, and we bought a good-sized sheet of the required plastic to be able to crank them out) when I came down with COVID early in the pendemic, and in the aftermath (I came down with long-haul post-COVID Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) itgot put on hold. The loaner, and a micrometer to measure it, are still siting on the table in my family room, next to my desktop. If anybody needs some, I can probably try finishing the drawing, and get it to Dave, so we can resume that project. Noel From jon at jonworld.com Thu Dec 2 07:58:08 2021 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 13:58:08 +0000 Subject: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes In-Reply-To: <0a1901d7e697$ce698130$6b3c8390$@gmail.com> References: <3fdf0a8f-4e8f-4987-a64f-a3f00677f2d9@sydex.com> <0a1901d7e697$ce698130$6b3c8390$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not an official volunteer there, yet, but we do have 9-track equipment. Right now most of it is on ICL-based hardware. On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 9:43 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck, > I think TNMOC can read these tapes. > > https://www.tnmoc.org/ > > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > > cctalk > > Sent: 30 November 2021 23:57 > > To: CCtalk > > Subject: Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes > > > > Hey list, > > > > I received a note today from a fellow in London who has 2 9-track tapes that > > he'd like read. Brands are CDC and BASF, so media shedding should > > not be a problem. Dates are '92 and '93, so likely 1600 or 6259. The > > tape seal on one (the other has no seal) is IBM-style, which may be the > > system that produced the tapes. > > > > Any takers? Let me know if so, I'll put you in contact and you can take things > > from there. > > > > All the best, > > > > --Chuck > > > > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 08:29:42 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 09:29:42 -0500 Subject: Unrecognized DEC Power Supply in PDP-11/44 Configuration Message-ID: <051801d7e789$0c434530$24c9cf90$@gmail.com> Does anyone recognize the (presumably) DEC power supply on the front half of the rack-bottom in the 11/44 listing at: https://www.ebay.com/itm/363640137050 Blurry photo, but it looks like there are a 4x3, a 3x3, and a 3x5 Molex connector, and two brown mini-modules protruding from the right side. If so, then what purpose did it likely serve? It appears that the 6U immediately below the 11/44 was likely occupied by an RX02 given the presence of an M8256 in the 11/44 backplane (and skinny mounting rails, although I thought those were usually at the bottom of the RX02), and that included its own power supply (which wasn't very beefy either, nor did it need to be). What went into the 6U immediately above the power supply is unclear; there is a HEX Wespercorp TC130 Tape Controller as well as three unknown QUAD modules in the 11/44 backplane. Perhaps there was a horizontal autoload tape drive mounted there that required a separate power supply? Curious! paul From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Thu Dec 2 08:54:03 2021 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 09:54:03 -0500 Subject: What happened to control-data.info and controlfreaks.org? In-Reply-To: References: <03D272E2-7B49-487F-BBFD-5CA972728639@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: I was able to find and archive the CYBIS kit, plus the associated documentation, as well as binaries and source code for a version of DtCyber that seem to be from January 2017. I actually have a web server that I don't use for much, so I'll probably upload it there, as well as pushing stuff to archive.org. Mike On Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 10:09 PM Andrew Warkentin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/18/21, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > > What happened? Looking back at my emails, the list was operating normally > > until September 3. Then it just stopped. There were normal discussions > > going on. There was no flood of spam. As far as I can tell, nothing > occured > > that would trigger a rage quit. > > > > Is the software and documentation that was on the site at least archived > > elsewhere? Has anybody downloaded it and can maybe upload to archive.org > ? > > > > Mike > > > > I downloaded some of the software and documentation from there a long > time ago and still have it, although I didn't actually scrape the > entire site. I can upload what I've got to archive.org. > > The disk image kit of NOS 2.8.7 with CYBIS has been mirrored at > and most of > the documentation for it is available from the Wayback Machine at > < > http://web.archive.org/web/20210421202420/http://www.control-data.info/CybisRelease.html > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 10:37:50 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 08:37:50 -0800 Subject: Unrecognized DEC Power Supply in PDP-11/44 Configuration In-Reply-To: <051801d7e789$0c434530$24c9cf90$@gmail.com> References: <051801d7e789$0c434530$24c9cf90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:29 AM pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone recognize the (presumably) DEC power supply on the front half > of > the rack-bottom in the 11/44 listing at: > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/363640137050 > > > > Blurry photo, but it looks like there are a 4x3, a 3x3, and a 3x5 Molex > connector, and two brown mini-modules protruding from the right side. > > > > If so, then what purpose did it likely serve? > It's not a DEC power supply, it's a Fujitsu power supply, likely for an M2284 SMD drive. Probably went in the empty slot you mention below. - Josh > > > > It appears that the 6U immediately below the 11/44 was likely occupied by > an > RX02 given the presence of an M8256 in the 11/44 backplane (and skinny > mounting rails, although I thought those were usually at the bottom of the > RX02), and that included its own power supply (which wasn't very beefy > either, nor did it need to be). > > > > What went into the 6U immediately above the power supply is unclear; there > is a HEX Wespercorp TC130 Tape Controller as well as three unknown QUAD > modules in the 11/44 backplane. Perhaps there was a horizontal autoload > tape drive mounted there that required a separate power supply? > > > > Curious! > > paul > > From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Dec 3 05:36:27 2021 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 06:36:27 -0500 Subject: Unrecognized DEC Power Supply in PDP-11/44 Configuration In-Reply-To: References: <051801d7e789$0c434530$24c9cf90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Those red cables appear to be SDI - maybe that spot was an RA80/RA81? The boards appear to be correct for a UDA50 (M7485/M7486, but it's hard to make out the board numbers). ??? -Rick On 12/2/2021 11:37 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:29 AM pbirkel--- via cctalk > wrote: > >> Does anyone recognize the (presumably) DEC power supply on the front half >> of >> the rack-bottom in the 11/44 listing at: >> >> >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/363640137050 >> >> >> >> Blurry photo, but it looks like there are a 4x3, a 3x3, and a 3x5 Molex >> connector, and two brown mini-modules protruding from the right side. >> >> >> >> If so, then what purpose did it likely serve? >> > It's not a DEC power supply, it's a Fujitsu power supply, likely for an > M2284 SMD drive. Probably went in the empty slot you mention below. > > - Josh > > > >> >> >> It appears that the 6U immediately below the 11/44 was likely occupied by >> an >> RX02 given the presence of an M8256 in the 11/44 backplane (and skinny >> mounting rails, although I thought those were usually at the bottom of the >> RX02), and that included its own power supply (which wasn't very beefy >> either, nor did it need to be). >> >> >> >> What went into the 6U immediately above the power supply is unclear; there >> is a HEX Wespercorp TC130 Tape Controller as well as three unknown QUAD >> modules in the 11/44 backplane. Perhaps there was a horizontal autoload >> tape drive mounted there that required a separate power supply? >> >> >> >> Curious! >> >> paul >> >> From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Dec 3 08:30:05 2021 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 14:30:05 +0000 Subject: Unrecognized DEC Power Supply in PDP-11/44 Configuration In-Reply-To: References: <051801d7e789$0c434530$24c9cf90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1bd6f864-e215-50ac-04d2-106e77caee64@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/12/2021 16:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:29 AM pbirkel--- via cctalk > wrote: > >> Does anyone recognize the (presumably) DEC power supply on the front half >> of the rack-bottom in the 11/44 listing at: > It's not a DEC power supply, it's a Fujitsu power supply, likely for an > M2284 SMD drive. Probably went in the empty slot you mention below. Yep. Looks identical to the Fujitsu PSU in my 11/40 rack, and the rails are the same as my Fujitsu rails. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 3 11:35:04 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 09:35:04 -0800 Subject: Women of Computing Message-ID: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> I really want to see this set produced, especially for the ?Ada Lovelace? and ?Admiral Hopper? portions of the set. https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e Zane From osi.superboard at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 15:38:56 2021 From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 21:38:56 +0000 Subject: Datapoint 2200 on ebay Message-ID: <48cd821c-9e34-d479-63b0-f3e2d3e55628@gmail.com> In my opinion, the Datapoint 2200 on ebay seems to be a 1100 Cassette Terminal. There are two theories - It is a true 1108, as the silver machine label indicates. This 1100 versions showed up in 1974 as described by the LCFGROUP and have been a variant to the 2200 with less memory , using most of the 2200 parts, except the power supply at the back. This has been re-designed. The Datapoint 2200 on ebay is most likely a 1100. But it has the 2200 logo at the front, how can this be ? Ken Whitehead may have the answer for that: StaTuesday 17th July 2012 Ken Whitehead (USA) Other comments re: confusing the 1100/2200/5500/6600 may have arisen from the fact that all of the enclosures for these models started life with 2200 molded into the plastic bezel. The 1100, 5500 and 6600 models had a separate logo that was applied over the existing 2200 logo. Since double-stick foam tapes were used, over time the tape let loose and the ?new? logo fell off. We had a few customer complaints re: the instant downgrading of their computers when this happened! Alas, we know that for all of those that complained, many more didn?t, giving possible rise to the confusion of what the machine actually was. - My second theory is, it is one of the 1100 terminals, that have been upgraded to a 2200, yes that was possible. The Dataform_1100_Brochure_1974 says: System Expandability. The 1100 user need not fear an application outgrowing an 1100's capabi lit ies. If additional data input locations are required, the 1100 can be upgraded to a Datapoint 2200 DATASHARE System. Seems this was offered along the introduction of the 1100, about 3 years after market introduction of the 2200.With this upgrade came extra 8kb more memory (2 more RAM boards) and a new front cover or removal of the 1100 logo plate ? In any case it is not a Datapoint 2200 as advertised. A real 2200 looks like this: http://datapoint.vintagecomputers.square7.ch/index.html Anyone with another good explanation ? Thomas Sun Nov 28 13:27:20 CST 2021 Previous message: Micro Technology Board Info Next message: Datapoint 2200 on ebay Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Noticed a Datapoint 2200 on ebay.... https://www.ebay.com/itm/275043446827 They're asking $48,000 I want one...but not for that price! :) Previous message: Micro Technology Board Info Next message: Datapoint 2200 on ebay Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the cctalk mailing list From newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk Sat Dec 4 12:20:33 2021 From: newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk (newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 18:20:33 -0000 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Great.....not. Why do we need woke Lego? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: 03 December 2021 17:35 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Women of Computing I really want to see this set produced, especially for the ?Ada Lovelace? and ?Admiral Hopper? portions of the set. https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e Zane From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 12:37:48 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 10:37:48 -0800 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 10:20 AM Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > Great.....not. > > Why do we need woke Lego? > OK, Boomer. - Josh > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via > cctalk > Sent: 03 December 2021 17:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Women of Computing > > I really want to see this set produced, especially for the ?Ada Lovelace? > and ?Admiral Hopper? portions of the set. > > > https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d > > https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e > > Zane > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 12:59:34 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 13:59:34 -0500 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: The correct answer is women and men in computing within some sort of historical context so that it does not seem like the fact that a person happens to be a woman that they're being featured rather than due to their actual accomplishments. On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 1:38 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 10:20 AM Chris Long via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Great.....not. > > > > Why do we need woke Lego? > > > > OK, Boomer. > - Josh > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via > > cctalk > > Sent: 03 December 2021 17:35 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Women of Computing > > > > I really want to see this set produced, especially for the ?Ada Lovelace? > > and ?Admiral Hopper? portions of the set. > > > > > > > https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d > > > > https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > From web at loomcom.com Sat Dec 4 13:17:13 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 11:17:13 -0800 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 4, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > The correct answer is women and men in computing within some sort of > historical context so that it does not seem like the fact that a person > happens to be a woman that they're being featured rather than due to their > actual accomplishments. How dare LEGO(tm) remind me that women exist? This is clearly communism. - Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 4 13:22:26 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 11:22:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: >>> I really want to see this set produced, especially for the ???Ada Lovelace??? >>> and ???Admiral Hopper??? portions of the set. >> https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d >>> https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e >>> Great.....not. >>> Why do we need woke Lego? >> OK, Boomer. On Sat, 4 Dec 2021, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > The correct answer is women and men in computing within some sort of > historical context so that it does not seem like the fact that a person > happens to be a woman that they're being featured rather than due to their > actual accomplishments. The title sounds like a Playboy spread. Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler versions of it would certainy sell better. Especially if life sized. 'course, there's already Lego computer porn. https://ideas.lego.com/projects/efdc9919-0435-4a50-ab6d-a74f7aa7113d https://archive.curbed.com/2017/7/27/16053224/chris-mcveigh-lego-building-guide-desktop-computer But, could it compete with a Monroe-Bot? (Futurama, "I dated a robot" Season 3, episode 47) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 4 13:33:07 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 19:33:07 +0000 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 10:20 AM Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >> Great.....not. >> >> Why do we need woke Lego? >> Excellent use of compression on the list: a question that contains its own answer :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From jason at smbfc.net Sat Dec 4 13:41:23 2021 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 11:41:23 -0800 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems grossly misapplied in this instance. --Jason On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > Great.....not. > > Why do we need woke Lego? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via cctalk > Sent: 03 December 2021 17:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Women of Computing > > I really want to see this set produced, especially for the ?Ada Lovelace? and ?Admiral Hopper? portions of the set. > > https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d > > https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e > > Zane > > > From bruns at 2mbit.com Sat Dec 4 13:52:55 2021 From: bruns at 2mbit.com (Brielle) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 12:52:55 -0700 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> Message-ID: Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you seriously. He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer history.? ? Brie > On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: > > ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems grossly misapplied in this instance. > > --Jason > > >> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >> Great.....not. >> >> Why do we need woke Lego? From newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk Sat Dec 4 13:55:05 2021 From: newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk (newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 19:55:05 -0000 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via cctalk Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Women of Computing Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you seriously. He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer history.? ? Brie > On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: > > ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems grossly misapplied in this instance. > > --Jason > > >> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >> Great.....not. >> >> Why do we need woke Lego? From bruns at 2mbit.com Sat Dec 4 14:09:10 2021 From: bruns at 2mbit.com (Brielle) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 13:09:10 -0700 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: <8A80C6EB-C440-4FA6-B4F1-F7F4F4CF1613@2mbit.com> See, if it had been presented like that, it would likely have not elicited the same response. It?s sad, but I understand the reason why they are doing it. Lego has always been a bit progressive - even going as far as in commercials that girls can play with legos too. Unfortunately, the ones that throw the term ?woke? around like that tend to have pretty strong feelings about a ?woman?s place in society?. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:55 PM, newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk wrote: > > ?On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via cctalk > Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Women of Computing > > Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you seriously. > > He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer history.? > > ? Brie > >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems grossly misapplied in this instance. >> >> --Jason >> >> >>>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >>> Great.....not. >>> >>> Why do we need woke Lego? > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 15:00:17 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 15:00:17 -0600 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: Woke lego?? What lego has been at fore front of this idea of being open to all for a long time so woke hah no being there as a community of growing and creativity yes... What's wrong with bringing out a set to celebrate these women who in many cases worked in toxic male bs environments... let's celebrate. Not complain plus there's now a univac in an official lego set!! On Sat., Dec. 4, 2021, 12:20 p.m. Chris Long via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Great.....not. > > Why do we need woke Lego? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via > cctalk > Sent: 03 December 2021 17:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Women of Computing > > I really want to see this set produced, especially for the ?Ada Lovelace? > and ?Admiral Hopper? portions of the set. > > > https://ideas.lego.com/blogs/a4ae09b6-0d4c-4307-9da8-3ee9f3d368d6/post/f39b7001-bf76-46ba-9d61-cb586f1c7a7d > > https://ideas.lego.com/projects/3bf5b46c-6c87-4a2d-a2e1-d31ed0e2739e > > Zane > > > > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Dec 4 15:06:55 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:06:55 +0100 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 04, 2021 at 06:20:33PM -0000, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > Great.....not. > > Why do we need woke Lego? To annoy people who use dogwhistles. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Dec 4 15:46:01 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 16:46:01 -0500 Subject: pdp8/L restoration time, part 1: switches Message-ID: <65b11dc5-d4d0-5d7a-a322-e09a9722dbee@alembic.crystel.com> I've decided it's time to fix my second pdp8/L. First one is missing (I think it's at the bottom of the closet) so I'll work on this one for awhile. First problem: Testing the lamps and switches. If the switches don't work or the lamps are out it's not going to be easy to troubleshoot. Currently I'm missing 5 of the plastic switches, and I have 2-3 switches with a broken pivot. Since I was going to need new plastic switch covers I fired up the 3d printer, downloaded the STL file for making them (thank you for putting that up!) and ran off a few for testing. It helps a lot to set the bridge angle value to 60% or so, that allows a nice solid bridge for the two "teeth" that engage the rocker switch. Also don't bother with PLA: The plastic pivots are too weak and break pretty quickly. Use PETG, which requires higher heat (240 instead of 200 at the head and 70 instead of 60 at the base) but it is more than strong enough for the pivots to go in without issues. Testing the switches I found that one of the data/address switches was reading high ohmage (20) when closed in the down direction and two of the data entry (spring loaded) switches were intermittent. Sprayed in a bit of Deoxit, and they now switch cleanly and without bounce. That would probably have driven me crazy if I tried to test with that. Next step: Check out the power supply..... C From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 16:12:05 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 16:12:05 -0600 Subject: pdp8/L restoration time, part 1: switches In-Reply-To: <65b11dc5-d4d0-5d7a-a322-e09a9722dbee@alembic.crystel.com> References: <65b11dc5-d4d0-5d7a-a322-e09a9722dbee@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: If u hunt around u can find similar switches in e-waste or even new. Then make some baskets u can attach. Like they did or if u got patience u can take those right apart and rebuild as the pins sit in a cardboard like material the plastic switch slides on with metal inserts for making contact. Need to get around finishing rebuilding mine. Mine had been ripped off but it u can see how they are assemble here https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/16586222513/in/album-72157651577592077/ On Sat., Dec. 4, 2021, 3:46 p.m. Chris Zach via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've decided it's time to fix my second pdp8/L. First one is missing (I > think it's at the bottom of the closet) so I'll work on this one for > awhile. > > First problem: Testing the lamps and switches. If the switches don't > work or the lamps are out it's not going to be easy to troubleshoot. > Currently I'm missing 5 of the plastic switches, and I have 2-3 switches > with a broken pivot. > > Since I was going to need new plastic switch covers I fired up the 3d > printer, downloaded the STL file for making them (thank you for putting > that up!) and ran off a few for testing. It helps a lot to set the > bridge angle value to 60% or so, that allows a nice solid bridge for the > two "teeth" that engage the rocker switch. Also don't bother with PLA: > The plastic pivots are too weak and break pretty quickly. Use PETG, > which requires higher heat (240 instead of 200 at the head and 70 > instead of 60 at the base) but it is more than strong enough for the > pivots to go in without issues. > > Testing the switches I found that one of the data/address switches was > reading high ohmage (20) when closed in the down direction and two of > the data entry (spring loaded) switches were intermittent. Sprayed in a > bit of Deoxit, and they now switch cleanly and without bounce. That > would probably have driven me crazy if I tried to test with that. > > Next step: Check out the power supply..... > > C > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Dec 4 16:21:04 2021 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:21:04 -0500 Subject: alt.folklore.computers... Altair Bob References: <00fe01d7e95d$3ac4df10$b04e9d30$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00fe01d7e95d$3ac4df10$b04e9d30$@verizon.net> A very, very long time ago, when dinosaurs still roamed the earth (or at least the computer rooms) there was a guy on usenet who called himself "Altair Bob" and offered to buy Altair computers. This was back when they weren't worth all that much (mid to late 1980s). He must have bought a dozen or so (as I remember). Does anybody know who he really was and what became of his (what I'm assuming was a) collection? Just idle curiosity brought on by a recent discussion of collections being destroyed by widows. Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Dec 4 16:23:53 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:23:53 -0500 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: <0420202f-42f3-8a28-7f55-00f9e52b76c8@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-12-04 2:55 p.m., Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. > False. Women still do not play 'an equal role' in STEM today, and did not in the 20th C either. Have you ever reflected on why not? It is a systemic issue that has been well studied and documented, and most relevantly, described by women. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via cctalk > Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Women of Computing > > Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you seriously. > > He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer history.? > > ? Brie > >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems grossly misapplied in this instance. >> >> --Jason >> >> >>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >>> Great.....not. >>> >>> Why do we need woke Lego? > > From newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk Sat Dec 4 16:47:53 2021 From: newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk (newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 22:47:53 -0000 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <0420202f-42f3-8a28-7f55-00f9e52b76c8@telegraphics.com.au> References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> <0420202f-42f3-8a28-7f55-00f9e52b76c8@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <006b01d7e960$fa0bab80$ee230280$@micromuseum.co.uk> I accept that far less women than men work in computing. I believe however that this is large due to their own perception of the industry and their career choices. Almost all the women I know would describe working in it as "sad" or "geeky" and several of them are married men who do work in IT. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Toby Thain via cctalk Sent: 04 December 2021 22:24 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Women of Computing On 2021-12-04 2:55 p.m., Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. > False. Women still do not play 'an equal role' in STEM today, and did not in the 20th C either. Have you ever reflected on why not? It is a systemic issue that has been well studied and documented, and most relevantly, described by women. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via > cctalk > Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Women of Computing > > Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you seriously. > > He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer history.? > > ? Brie > >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems grossly misapplied in this instance. >> >> --Jason >> >> >>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >>> Great.....not. >>> >>> Why do we need woke Lego? > > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Dec 4 17:21:06 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:21:06 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> On 12/1/2021 11:55 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working > > It's Fritz Mueller's blog; at about the top of this page: > > https://fritzm.github.io/category/pdp-116.html > > he's just turned the machine on for the first time, and you can > follow as he chases, finds and fixes CPU problems. The KB11-C/D > of the -11/70 is _very_ similar to the KB11-A he was dealing with > (they are _basically_ the same CPU, with a cache, and other stuff > added on the other side from the CPU, on the KB11-C/D), so there > are probably some good lessons to be learned. > Very useful to see as I ponder trying to get my 11/45 (with a KB11-D in it) going again. I think next time I work on this beastie I will roll it out from my main room where the lighting and access are just OK into my larger room where my PC is kept temporarily, for easier access. Going to want to buy a load tester and thoroughly check out the power supplies first - which are unfortunately really heavy (and may not be mounted quite properly, either), as it has been several years since I turned the thing on. JRJ From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Dec 4 17:24:27 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 15:24:27 -0800 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <8A80C6EB-C440-4FA6-B4F1-F7F4F4CF1613@2mbit.com> References: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> <8A80C6EB-C440-4FA6-B4F1-F7F4F4CF1613@2mbit.com> Message-ID: LEGO is not doing this. This is part of the LEGO Ideas program, ideas for LEGO sets submitted by the LEGO user community. Someone proposes a set to the community and, if it gets 10,000 votes from the community, LEGO will consider making an official set out of it. Other examples of LEGO Ideas sets are the Saturn V rocket and ISS. This set was likely inspired by another Ideas set that went through the process and became an official set - https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/women-of-nasa-21312 LEGO itself has been a bit behind the curve on including female minifigs in their sets. My wife is active in the AFOL (Adult Fans Of LEGO) community. She has been lobbying LEGO for more female figures for much of her life, partly because LEGO was considered a "boys'" toy when we were growing up. (We were born at the beginning of Gen X FWIW.) alan On 12/4/21 12:09 PM, Brielle via cctalk wrote: > See, if it had been presented like that, it would likely have not elicited the same response. > > It?s sad, but I understand the reason why they are doing it. Lego has always been a bit progressive - even going as far as in commercials that girls can play with legos too. > > Unfortunately, the ones that throw the term ?woke? around like that tend to have pretty strong feelings about a ?woman?s place in society?. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:55 PM, newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk wrote: >> >> ?On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via cctalk >> Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Women of Computing >> >> Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you seriously. >> >> He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer history.? >> >> ? Brie >> >>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems grossly misapplied in this instance. >>> >>> --Jason >>> >>> >>>>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >>>> Great.....not. >>>> >>>> Why do we need woke Lego? >> From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 17:25:08 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:25:08 -0600 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <006b01d7e960$fa0bab80$ee230280$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> <0420202f-42f3-8a28-7f55-00f9e52b76c8@telegraphics.com.au> <006b01d7e960$fa0bab80$ee230280$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: There's allot of masojinisitc crap in the system though.. I hear about it from female friends. That were in school and now in the field it's there and changing some countries or cities are worse then others as well On Sat., Dec. 4, 2021, 4:48 p.m. Chris Long via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I accept that far less women than men work in computing. > > I believe however that this is large due to their own perception of the > industry and their career choices. > > Almost all the women I know would describe working in it as "sad" or > "geeky" and several of them are married men who do work in IT. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Toby Thain via > cctalk > Sent: 04 December 2021 22:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Women of Computing > > On 2021-12-04 2:55 p.m., Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > > On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role - > and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. > > > > False. Women still do not play 'an equal role' in STEM today, and did not > in the 20th C either. Have you ever reflected on why not? It is a systemic > issue that has been well studied and documented, and most relevantly, > described by women. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via > > cctalk > > Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Women of Computing > > > > Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you > are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you > seriously. > > > > He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t > like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer > history.? > > > > ? Brie > > > >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems > grossly misapplied in this instance. > >> > >> --Jason > >> > >> > >>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > >>> Great.....not. > >>> > >>> Why do we need woke Lego? > > > > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 17:29:46 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:29:46 -0600 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> <8A80C6EB-C440-4FA6-B4F1-F7F4F4CF1613@2mbit.com> Message-ID: Lego puts poly pocket to shame. I agree with urwife and thank her for her work lobbying lego plz keep it up itsthe truly universal toy of everything On Sat., Dec. 4, 2021, 5:24 p.m. Alan Perry via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > LEGO is not doing this. This is part of the LEGO Ideas program, ideas > for LEGO sets submitted by the LEGO user community. Someone proposes a > set to the community and, if it gets 10,000 votes from the community, > LEGO will consider making an official set out of it. Other examples of > LEGO Ideas sets are the Saturn V rocket and ISS. > > > This set was likely inspired by another Ideas set that went through the > process and became an official set - > https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/women-of-nasa-21312 > > > LEGO itself has been a bit behind the curve on including female minifigs > in their sets. My wife is active in the AFOL (Adult Fans Of LEGO) > community. She has been lobbying LEGO for more female figures for much > of her life, partly because LEGO was considered a "boys'" toy when we > were growing up. (We were born at the beginning of Gen X FWIW.) > > > alan > > > On 12/4/21 12:09 PM, Brielle via cctalk wrote: > > See, if it had been presented like that, it would likely have not > elicited the same response. > > > > It?s sad, but I understand the reason why they are doing it. Lego has > always been a bit progressive - even going as far as in commercials that > girls can play with legos too. > > > > Unfortunately, the ones that throw the term ?woke? around like that tend > to have pretty strong feelings about a ?woman?s place in society?. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:55 PM, newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk wrote: > >> > >> ?On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role > - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via > cctalk > >> Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> Subject: Re: Women of Computing > >> > >> Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you > are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you > seriously. > >> > >> He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t > like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer > history.? > >> > >> ? Brie > >> > >>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems > grossly misapplied in this instance. > >>> > >>> --Jason > >>> > >>> > >>>>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > >>>> Great.....not. > >>>> > >>>> Why do we need woke Lego? > >> > From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Dec 4 17:52:45 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 15:52:45 -0800 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> <8A80C6EB-C440-4FA6-B4F1-F7F4F4CF1613@2mbit.com> Message-ID: <50c5e5c1-e7e9-9f41-d48e-3c9c9b880298@snowmoose.com> I was just now catching up with my LEGO Ideas e-mail (I went through my cctech mail first :) and see that the Women of Computing set was put together and proposed by the same woman who did the Women of NASA set. As far as my wife, she is active in two local LEGO user groups and was the one of those club's liaison with LEGO (until last month when the club lost its official club status with LEGO). Seeing LEGO this close is sometimes not the best idea if one wants to remain an enthusiastic supporter of the company. On 12/4/21 3:29 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > Lego puts poly pocket to shame. I agree with urwife and thank her for her > work lobbying lego plz keep it up itsthe truly universal toy of everything > > On Sat., Dec. 4, 2021, 5:24 p.m. Alan Perry via cctalk, < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> LEGO is not doing this. This is part of the LEGO Ideas program, ideas >> for LEGO sets submitted by the LEGO user community. Someone proposes a >> set to the community and, if it gets 10,000 votes from the community, >> LEGO will consider making an official set out of it. Other examples of >> LEGO Ideas sets are the Saturn V rocket and ISS. >> >> >> This set was likely inspired by another Ideas set that went through the >> process and became an official set - >> https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/women-of-nasa-21312 >> >> >> LEGO itself has been a bit behind the curve on including female minifigs >> in their sets. My wife is active in the AFOL (Adult Fans Of LEGO) >> community. She has been lobbying LEGO for more female figures for much >> of her life, partly because LEGO was considered a "boys'" toy when we >> were growing up. (We were born at the beginning of Gen X FWIW.) >> >> >> alan >> >> >> On 12/4/21 12:09 PM, Brielle via cctalk wrote: >>> See, if it had been presented like that, it would likely have not >> elicited the same response. >>> It?s sad, but I understand the reason why they are doing it. Lego has >> always been a bit progressive - even going as far as in commercials that >> girls can play with legos too. >>> Unfortunately, the ones that throw the term ?woke? around like that tend >> to have pretty strong feelings about a ?woman?s place in society?. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:55 PM, newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk wrote: >>>> >>>> ?On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role >> - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via >> cctalk >>>> Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>>> Subject: Re: Women of Computing >>>> >>>> Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you >> are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you >> seriously. >>>> He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t >> like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer >> history.? >>>> ? Brie >>>> >>>>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems >> grossly misapplied in this instance. >>>>> --Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Great.....not. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why do we need woke Lego? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 4 17:57:48 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 23:57:48 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> Message-ID: <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger via > cctalk > Sent: 04 December 2021 23:21 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > On 12/1/2021 11:55 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working > > > > It's Fritz Mueller's blog; at about the top of this page: > > > > https://fritzm.github.io/category/pdp-116.html > > > > he's just turned the machine on for the first time, and you can follow > > as he chases, finds and fixes CPU problems. The KB11-C/D of the -11/70 > > is _very_ similar to the KB11-A he was dealing with (they are > > _basically_ the same CPU, with a cache, and other stuff added on the > > other side from the CPU, on the KB11-C/D), so there are probably some > > good lessons to be learned. > > > > Very useful to see as I ponder trying to get my 11/45 (with a KB11-D in > it) going again. I think next time I work on this beastie I will roll it out from my > main room where the lighting and access are just OK into my larger room > where my PC is kept temporarily, for easier access. > Going to want to buy a load tester and thoroughly check out the power > supplies first - which are unfortunately really heavy (and may not be > mounted quite properly, either), as it has been several years since I turned > the thing on. What kind of load tester are you looking to buy? I have an 11/45 which I need to test the power supplies on too. > > JRJ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 18:01:08 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 18:01:08 -0600 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <50c5e5c1-e7e9-9f41-d48e-3c9c9b880298@snowmoose.com> References: <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> <8A80C6EB-C440-4FA6-B4F1-F7F4F4CF1613@2mbit.com> <50c5e5c1-e7e9-9f41-d48e-3c9c9b880298@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Yea Lego is finicky with lugs Mostly for access to the lug bulk though no? On Sat., Dec. 4, 2021, 5:53 p.m. Alan Perry via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was just now catching up with my LEGO Ideas e-mail (I went through my > cctech mail first :) and see that the Women of Computing set was put > together and proposed by the same woman who did the Women of NASA set. > > > As far as my wife, she is active in two local LEGO user groups and was > the one of those club's liaison with LEGO (until last month when the > club lost its official club status with LEGO). Seeing LEGO this close is > sometimes not the best idea if one wants to remain an enthusiastic > supporter of the company. > > > On 12/4/21 3:29 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > Lego puts poly pocket to shame. I agree with urwife and thank her for her > > work lobbying lego plz keep it up itsthe truly universal toy of > everything > > > > On Sat., Dec. 4, 2021, 5:24 p.m. Alan Perry via cctalk, < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> LEGO is not doing this. This is part of the LEGO Ideas program, ideas > >> for LEGO sets submitted by the LEGO user community. Someone proposes a > >> set to the community and, if it gets 10,000 votes from the community, > >> LEGO will consider making an official set out of it. Other examples of > >> LEGO Ideas sets are the Saturn V rocket and ISS. > >> > >> > >> This set was likely inspired by another Ideas set that went through the > >> process and became an official set - > >> https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/women-of-nasa-21312 > >> > >> > >> LEGO itself has been a bit behind the curve on including female minifigs > >> in their sets. My wife is active in the AFOL (Adult Fans Of LEGO) > >> community. She has been lobbying LEGO for more female figures for much > >> of her life, partly because LEGO was considered a "boys'" toy when we > >> were growing up. (We were born at the beginning of Gen X FWIW.) > >> > >> > >> alan > >> > >> > >> On 12/4/21 12:09 PM, Brielle via cctalk wrote: > >>> See, if it had been presented like that, it would likely have not > >> elicited the same response. > >>> It?s sad, but I understand the reason why they are doing it. Lego has > >> always been a bit progressive - even going as far as in commercials that > >> girls can play with legos too. > >>> Unfortunately, the ones that throw the term ?woke? around like that > tend > >> to have pretty strong feelings about a ?woman?s place in society?. > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:55 PM, newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk wrote: > >>>> > >>>> ?On the contrary I consider it implicit that they played an equal role > >> - and the need to make toys to indicate it is somewhat sad. > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brielle via > >> cctalk > >>>> Sent: 04 December 2021 19:53 > >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >>>> Subject: Re: Women of Computing > >>>> > >>>> Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point > you > >> are trying to make moot. Great way to make people people not take you > >> seriously. > >>>> He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I > don?t > >> like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of computer > >> history.? > >>>> ? Brie > >>>> > >>>>> On Dec 4, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>>> ?I'm curious what your definition of 'woke' is, because it seems > >> grossly misapplied in this instance. > >>>>> --Jason > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On 12/4/21 10:20, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > >>>>>> Great.....not. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Why do we need woke Lego? > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Dec 4 19:02:54 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:02:54 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> > On Dec 4, 2021, at 3:57 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > What kind of load tester are you looking to buy? I have an 11/45 which I need to test the power supplies on too. I picked up a Kunkin KP184 this last year, and it does nicely for testing those brick regulators and the power control boards in isolation (a bit more convenient than the old light bulb or power resistor approach.) Some of the large electrolytics in those bricks will likely have dried out. I disassemble and ?reform" these with a bench supply and current limiting resistor on any of these bricks I have not yet personally serviced (Yes, I know the reforming thing is controversial for some. I think its safe to say it at least doesn?t hurt anything :-) Check the big bridge rectifiers carefully; I?ve seen a few of those cracked or toasted. It?s also been my experience that beyond the bricks that are dead or fail at the start, some smaller fraction will also let go after the first few hours of continuous operation. The don?t tend to fail with fireworks ? you?ll generally get a slowly increasing whiff of magic smoke so generally plenty of time to shut things down. The operation indicator bulbs on these seem almost always dead. You can sub CM7381 for the +5V regulators, and OL-6003BP for the -15V. Last, if you have H742 supplies on your 11/45, be sure to check the small muffin fan above the power control board. It is quite common for parts of the internal wiring harness to rub up against these and stall them out, eventually leading to a fried controller board. Good luck! Good winter time project :-) ?FritzM. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 4 20:19:25 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 20:19:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <2ff02fa8-761c-4ae1-180a-36777c6e59b8@pico-systems.com> On 12/4/21 7:02 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 4, 2021, at 3:57 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> What kind of load tester are you looking to buy? I have an 11/45 which I need to test the power supplies on too. My experience with an 11/45 (serial # 343) was that the regulators were pretty indestructable, but the AMP Mate-n-Lok connectors burned up on a regular basis. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 22:24:38 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 20:24:38 -0800 Subject: Source for DEC TC01 (and similar) bulbs? Message-ID: Anyone sitting on a pile of these or know where to find some? These were originally Dialco 507-3917 or Drake 11-507 based on what was installed in mine. 24V, 40mA, white. A total of 23 bulbs were dead on my TC01's panel. I've installed a pile of electrically/physically compatible bulbs that I happened to have, but they're yellow/orange and have a different visual design (the yellow lens sticks out 1/8" or so, whereas the orginals were flush). I'm honestly fine with using them but it'd be nice to have something that looks original. And a small progress update: Found that the IOT decode for READ STATUS B wasn't working, which is done on the W103 decoder at E/F19. With that resolved the diagnostics are behaving much more rationally. This took me much too long to trace down, but I learned a lot about how the controller works and found a fun (but ultimately harmless) bug in the Basic Exerciser diagnostic that threw me off for a couple of days... The Search Scope loop diagnostic shows block numbers going by in both directions so a lot of the drive and controller are working, but there's some glitchiness in bits 2, 5, 8, and 11 of the data so I need to trace that down; I hope it's not the tape head. - Josh From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 5 03:37:42 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:37:42 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> Thanks for the tips. The transformer that drives the bricks is a real beast. Did you find an alternative more convenient way to power them on the bench? I don't see the Kunkin unit for sale except for a couple of items on ebay from China. I am really reluctant to buy anything at all from China. I couldn't find a manufacturer site for them, and I was wondering if there are alternatives since they don't seem to be particularly available. I did find this which is a bit more expensive (I know Rigol is Chinese, but it seems to be decent quality kit) https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/product/rigol-dl3021-programmable-dc-electronic-load/ Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Fritz Mueller via > cctalk > Sent: 05 December 2021 01:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > > > > On Dec 4, 2021, at 3:57 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > What kind of load tester are you looking to buy? I have an 11/45 which I > need to test the power supplies on too. > > I picked up a Kunkin KP184 this last year, and it does nicely for testing those > brick regulators and the power control boards in isolation (a bit more > convenient than the old light bulb or power resistor approach.) > > Some of the large electrolytics in those bricks will likely have dried out. I > disassemble and ?reform" these with a bench supply and current limiting > resistor on any of these bricks I have not yet personally serviced (Yes, I know > the reforming thing is controversial for some. I think its safe to say it at least > doesn?t hurt anything :-) > > Check the big bridge rectifiers carefully; I?ve seen a few of those cracked or > toasted. > > It?s also been my experience that beyond the bricks that are dead or fail at > the start, some smaller fraction will also let go after the first few hours of > continuous operation. The don?t tend to fail with fireworks ? you?ll > generally get a slowly increasing whiff of magic smoke so generally plenty of > time to shut things down. > > The operation indicator bulbs on these seem almost always dead. You can > sub CM7381 for the +5V regulators, and OL-6003BP for the -15V. > > Last, if you have H742 supplies on your 11/45, be sure to check the small > muffin fan above the power control board. It is quite common for parts of > the internal wiring harness to rub up against these and stall them out, > eventually leading to a fried controller board. > > Good luck! Good winter time project :-) > > ?FritzM. From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 07:45:58 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 08:45:58 -0500 Subject: External SCSI Drives on DEC2000 AXP Message-ID: <8bd6cf6a-9725-6da8-6ba1-e5d6caa75c08@gmail.com> I am trying to format a couple of SCSI drives on the Alpha.? They are connected using the external cable and are mounted in an Open Storage Systems (OSS) box. The drives were working when removed from a PC. SRM shows only one of them coming up as DKA200.? I have set the two drive ID switches to 2 and 3. Lack of info is hampering me, I have gleaned form various sources that the following command should work: >>>t scsi format a 2 0 which just returns >>>OK immediately, without doing anything. VMS allows me to ini the disk, but then when I try to mount it, I get an operator services message saying it is offline, please mount volume in _$3$dka200: Anybody with experience here? cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From cliendo at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 08:19:47 2021 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:19:47 -0500 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: I actually created an account to support this but I think it already has enough votes to get it made. I ended up giving private feedback. I like vintage computing legos and I have a few of Chris McVeigh's sets before he went to work for LEGO. I would like to see these sets get made. These sets were designed and proposed by an individual and unless someone takes the time to do one for people like Babbage, Mauchly, Eckert, or Englebart then you won't see it. Someone designed one for Alan Turing, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. If you want to see ones for people who you admire, you need to make it or ask for it. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Dec 5 08:39:09 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 08:39:09 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/2021 5:57 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > What kind of load tester are you looking to buy? I have an 11/45 which I need to test the power supplies on too. > Oh just one off of amazon, I expect. One could either get a nice one in a cabinet at all for around $280 - $350, depending upon capacity, or an less expensive unit for $100 or so. This one seems intriguing: the price is modest, said to handle up to 30V, 20A, 200W (could test 5v up to 20A, 15V up to 13A and at 30V, derate down to 6A. https://www.amazon.com/T-king-Battery-Capacity-Tester-Electronic/dp/B07SFD8R4Y Here is a slightly more capable unit in a nicer case for $300 https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Tester-Programmable-Channel-Battery/dp/B091FFSHD5 From cube1 at charter.net Sun Dec 5 08:51:23 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 08:51:23 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> On 12/5/2021 3:37 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for the tips. The transformer that drives the bricks is a real beast. Did you find an alternative more convenient way to power them on the bench? > From the schematics, some of them seem to want 20-30 VAC (some, like at least one of the -15v regulators, take DC inputs from other regulators) For lower current initial testing I have some 24v 2A transformers lying around. For higher current, I might use something like this guy: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/triad-magnetics/F-401U/5032226 JRJ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 09:08:39 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 10:08:39 -0500 Subject: External SCSI Drives on DEC2000 AXP In-Reply-To: <8bd6cf6a-9725-6da8-6ba1-e5d6caa75c08@gmail.com> References: <8bd6cf6a-9725-6da8-6ba1-e5d6caa75c08@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nigel, If you have two drives of the same volume name in VMS that will cause issues. You did not provide a lot of detail to give you specific answers. Its complex but here is a starting point https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=604&tid=18 I am a hobbyist in vms, not an expert. Bill On Sun, Dec 5, 2021, 8:46 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am trying to format a couple of SCSI drives on the Alpha. They are > connected using the external cable and are mounted in an Open Storage > Systems (OSS) box. The drives were working when removed from a PC. > > SRM shows only one of them coming up as DKA200. I have set the two > drive ID switches to 2 and 3. > > Lack of info is hampering me, I have gleaned form various sources that > the following command should work: > > >>>t scsi format a 2 0 > > which just returns > > >>>OK > > immediately, without doing anything. > > VMS allows me to ini the disk, but then when I try to mount it, I get an > operator services message saying it is offline, please mount volume in > _$3$dka200: > > Anybody with experience here? > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > From doc at vaxen.net Sun Dec 5 09:09:49 2021 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:09:49 -0600 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/4/21 12:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > OK, Boomer. > There's really no call to be nasty about it. To those of us who are baby boomers, that usage is extremely offensive. Doc From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 09:17:02 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 16:17:02 +0100 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 at 16:09, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/4/21 12:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > > OK, Boomer. > > > There's really no call to be nasty about it. > > To those of us who are baby boomers, that usage is extremely offensive. I suspect that was the plan. Chris Long's email was nasty, unpleasant and a mean-spirited and unpleasant thing to say. The fact that they felt the need to say it on a public forum indicates either that they do not care what other people feel, or that they wanted to cause offence. When someone is so insensitive that they do not understand that their words can hurt others, then sometimes, an effective way to show to them that words can be hurtful and that they shouldn't say mean things, is to say something that is hurtful to them. This can illustrate to people who do not normally care about others' feelings that they do not like it when their own feelings are hurt. It is, sadly, a common attribute of a certain age group, especially of old white straight men, to give little regard to others' feelings like this. They typically consider a waste of time any kind of affirmative action that helps, boosts, or engages with people who are not old, white, straight and men. This is a bad way to behave. Nobody should act like that. It violates Wheaton's Law, which is a basic principle of how to be a civilised human being. "OK, Boomer" is just a succinct and clear way of saying "you are an unpleasant old man and we do not need to listen to your useless hurtful opinions." If that sounds like you, then my advice to you is not to complain about it, but to engage with it, and learn how not to be such a person, and then go and teach other such folk how to be better people. If it doesn't sound like you, then you should not be bothered by it. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 5 10:22:01 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 11:22:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Women of Computing Message-ID: <20211205162201.3314F18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Can we please return to discussions of actual classic computers, before our long-suffering list host shuts the list down _again_ for this sort of argument, this time perhaps forever? Thank you. Noel From newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk Sun Dec 5 10:56:58 2021 From: newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk (newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 16:56:58 -0000 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: <002d01d7e9f9$1f186560$5d493020$@micromuseum.co.uk> The fact I don?t think it is necessary for a Lego set specifically endorsing the role of women in computing is unpleasant or mean spirited? Get a life Liam. I simply expressed my view. Are we really at a state on this list where when someone posts mentioning something, that anyone who expresses any alternative view is behaving unacceptably? Talk about snowflakes. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via cctalk Sent: 05 December 2021 15:17 To: Doc Shipley ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Women of Computing On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 at 16:09, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/4/21 12:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > > OK, Boomer. > > > There's really no call to be nasty about it. > > To those of us who are baby boomers, that usage is extremely offensive. I suspect that was the plan. Chris Long's email was nasty, unpleasant and a mean-spirited and unpleasant thing to say. The fact that they felt the need to say it on a public forum indicates either that they do not care what other people feel, or that they wanted to cause offence. When someone is so insensitive that they do not understand that their words can hurt others, then sometimes, an effective way to show to them that words can be hurtful and that they shouldn't say mean things, is to say something that is hurtful to them. This can illustrate to people who do not normally care about others' feelings that they do not like it when their own feelings are hurt. It is, sadly, a common attribute of a certain age group, especially of old white straight men, to give little regard to others' feelings like this. They typically consider a waste of time any kind of affirmative action that helps, boosts, or engages with people who are not old, white, straight and men. This is a bad way to behave. Nobody should act like that. It violates Wheaton's Law, which is a basic principle of how to be a civilised human being. "OK, Boomer" is just a succinct and clear way of saying "you are an unpleasant old man and we do not need to listen to your useless hurtful opinions." If that sounds like you, then my advice to you is not to complain about it, but to engage with it, and learn how not to be such a person, and then go and teach other such folk how to be better people. If it doesn't sound like you, then you should not be bothered by it. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Dec 5 11:09:11 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 10:09:11 -0700 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <002d01d7e9f9$1f186560$5d493020$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> <002d01d7e9f9$1f186560$5d493020$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 9:57 AM Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > Talk about snowflakes. > Can we please bring this whole tiresome political theater to an end? If you are replying and thinking of using phrases from the current culture war. Don't. They are off topic here. Please Just Don't. Warner From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 5 11:24:04 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 17:24:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <002d01d7e9f9$1f186560$5d493020$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> <002d01d7e9f9$1f186560$5d493020$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: <1267232726.2953536.1638725044288@mail.yahoo.com> Did not see what Liam even said.? I tend to skip anything he posts. As what he says do not relate to what I am working on or are corrosive? Guess I will have to check out the archive!?Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 9:57 AM, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: The fact I don?t think it is necessary for a Lego set specifically endorsing the role of women in computing is unpleasant or mean spirited? Get a life Liam. I simply expressed my view. Are we really at a state on this list where when someone posts mentioning something, that anyone who expresses any alternative view is behaving unacceptably? Talk about snowflakes. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via cctalk Sent: 05 December 2021 15:17 To: Doc Shipley ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Women of Computing On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 at 16:09, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/4/21 12:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > > OK, Boomer. > > > There's really no call to be nasty about it. > > To those of us who are baby boomers, that usage is extremely offensive. I suspect that was the plan. Chris Long's email was nasty, unpleasant and a mean-spirited and unpleasant thing to say. The fact that they felt the need to say it on a public forum indicates either that they do not care what other people feel, or that they wanted to cause offence. When someone is so insensitive that they do not understand that their words can hurt others, then sometimes, an effective way to show to them that words can be hurtful and that they shouldn't say mean things, is to say something that is hurtful to them. This can illustrate to people who do not normally care about others' feelings that they do not like it when their own feelings are hurt. It is, sadly, a common attribute of a certain age group, especially of old white straight men, to give little regard to others' feelings like this. They typically consider a waste of time any kind of affirmative action that helps, boosts, or engages with people who are not old, white, straight and men. This is a bad way to behave. Nobody should act like that. It violates Wheaton's Law, which is a basic principle of how to be a civilised human being. "OK, Boomer" is just a succinct and clear way of saying "you are an unpleasant old man and we do not need to listen to your useless hurtful opinions." If that sounds like you, then my advice to you is not to complain about it, but to engage with it, and learn how not to be such a person, and then go and teach other such folk how to be better people. If it doesn't sound like you, then you should not be bothered by it. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 11:29:20 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:29:20 -0800 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <002d01d7e9f9$1f186560$5d493020$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> <002d01d7e9f9$1f186560$5d493020$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 8:57 AM Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > The fact I don?t think it is necessary for a Lego set specifically > endorsing the role of women in computing is unpleasant or mean spirited? > That's not what your initial response said, and you know it. You can backpedal all you want. Rather than starting an actual discussion of the merits of the project you replied flippantly, using the word "woke" to completely dismiss the project, with all the weight that word connotes. > > Get a life Liam. I simply expressed my view. > > Are we really at a state on this list where when someone posts mentioning > something, that anyone who expresses any alternative view is behaving > unacceptably? > Nope. You know this, too. > > Talk about snowflakes. > There you go again. - Josh > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 05 December 2021 15:17 > To: Doc Shipley ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Women of Computing > > On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 at 16:09, Doc Shipley via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 12/4/21 12:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > OK, Boomer. > > > > > There's really no call to be nasty about it. > > > > To those of us who are baby boomers, that usage is extremely offensive. > > I suspect that was the plan. > > Chris Long's email was nasty, unpleasant and a mean-spirited and > unpleasant thing to say. The fact that they felt the need to say it on a > public forum indicates either that they do not care what other people feel, > or that they wanted to cause offence. > > When someone is so insensitive that they do not understand that their > words can hurt others, then sometimes, an effective way to show to them > that words can be hurtful and that they shouldn't say mean things, is to > say something that is hurtful to them. > > This can illustrate to people who do not normally care about others' > feelings that they do not like it when their own feelings are hurt. > > It is, sadly, a common attribute of a certain age group, especially of old > white straight men, to give little regard to others' feelings like this. > They typically consider a waste of time any kind of affirmative action that > helps, boosts, or engages with people who are not old, white, straight and > men. > > This is a bad way to behave. Nobody should act like that. It violates > Wheaton's Law, which is a basic principle of how to be a civilised human > being. > > "OK, Boomer" is just a succinct and clear way of saying "you are an > unpleasant old man and we do not need to listen to your useless hurtful > opinions." > > If that sounds like you, then my advice to you is not to complain about > it, but to engage with it, and learn how not to be such a person, and then > go and teach other such folk how to be better people. > > If it doesn't sound like you, then you should not be bothered by it. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 5 11:40:00 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:40:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: <006b01d7e960$fa0bab80$ee230280$@micromuseum.co.uk> References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> <004c01d7e948$d69c65d0$83d53170$@micromuseum.co.uk> <0420202f-42f3-8a28-7f55-00f9e52b76c8@telegraphics.com.au> <006b01d7e960$fa0bab80$ee230280$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Dec 2021, Chris Long via cctalk wrote: > I accept that far less women than men work in computing. > > I believe however that this is large due to their own perception of the industry and their career choices. > It's not "perception". It's the rampant sexual harassment, "dudebro" culture, etc. It takes a strong person to work in an industry that demonstratedly treats them like second class citizens. If you've got an issue with Lego promoting women in STEM fields, ya'll should probably go sit in the corner until you've come to grips with the fact that you've got a dramatic flaw in your perception of reality. > Almost all the women I know would describe working in it as "sad" or > "geeky" and several of them are married men who do work in IT. > Five bucks says all or most of them were denigrated or humiliated in some fashion after showing an early interest in those things. If I were you, I'd go back to shouting at clouds and chasing kids off your lawn. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 5 11:59:16 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 09:59:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9604AC42-2E20-4A54-8D34-373876EB5D16@avanthar.com> <003f01d7e93b$a20fdd90$e62f98b0$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Dec 2021, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This is a bad way to behave. Nobody should act like that. It violates > Wheaton's Law, which is a basic principle of how to be a civilised > human being. > For those unfamiliar, Weaton's Law: "Don't be a dick." > "OK, Boomer" is just a succinct and clear way of saying "you are an > unpleasant old man and we do not need to listen to your useless > hurtful opinions." > More importantly, it's shorter to type. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From abs at absd.org Sun Dec 5 12:28:19 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 18:28:19 +0000 Subject: Testers with Alpha or DECstation hardware with framebuffers? Message-ID: I've been trying to fixup NetBSD to build usable X servers from up to date Xorg for Alpha and MIPS based DECstations, and wondered if anyone on list had any machines to hand on which they might be willing to test? There is a full distribution (individual set files and bootable ISO image) in http://sync.absd.org/xwsfb/ - the README from that directory is included below. If anything is non obvious, or it would help to have test images in a different format, just let me know Thanks David xwsfb - v1.2 This contains wsfb Xorg builds for NetBSD/pmax and NetBSD/alpha from 2021-12-03 sources Changes from stock NetBSD tree: - Add WSDISPLAYIO_GET_FBINFO to dev/tc TURBOchannel display adaptors - Enable building Xwsfb X server for pmax - Switch alpha from Xorg 1.10 to 1.20 (plus tweaked bsd_ev56 from 1.10) - (diffs in xwsfb.diff) Things to test: - Any and all framebuffers, TURBOchannel (and also PCI on alpha) - Confirm if keyboard mapping is correct (and does console match x11) - Does uxterm work on alpha pmax issues: - uxterm and LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 in general do not work - Escape does not work on gxemul console (not a regression from stock) To install and test pmax in gxemul - Install gxemul :) - eg pkgsrc/emulators/gxemul - Create a 2GB disk image: dd if=/dev/zero of=pmax.img bs=1m count=2048 - Run: gxemul -X -M 256 -e 3max -d pmax.img -d b:NetBSD-9.99.92-pmax.iso - Follow prompts to install - At the end - select 'Add a user' and make sure it is added to wheel - Exit and halt - Run: gxemul -X -M 256 -e 3max -d pmax.img (wait ~forever for fontcache) - Login as root, edit /etc/X11/ctwm/system.ctwmrc and change "uxterm" to "xterm" - Run: startx - Optionally: (if user is in wheel group), enable xdm=YES in /etc/rc.conf To upgrade an existing NetBSD-9.99.92 install - Ensure you have the following from this location (where arch is alpha or pmax) - ${arch}/binary/kernel/netbsd-GENERIC.gz - ${arch}/binary/sets/xbase.tgz - ${arch}/binary/sets/xcomp.tgz - ${arch}/binary/sets/xetc.tgz - ${arch}/binary/sets/xfont.tgz - ${arch}/binary/sets/xserver.tgz - Copy /netbsd to /onetbsd, then extract netbsd-GENERIC.gz as /netbsd - Wipe /usr/X11R7 then extract x*tgz from / - For pmax only: edit /etc/X11/ctwm/system.ctwmrc & change "uxterm" to "xterm" - Run: startx - Optionally: (if user is in wheel group), enable xdm=YES in /etc/rc.conf From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Sun Dec 5 13:04:28 2021 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 11:04:28 -0800 Subject: Disk cartridge storage racks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am in need of some disk cartridge storage racks. The kinds I am looking for are the ones used for front-loading cartridges (IBM 2315, DEC RK05, etc.) as well as the ones for top-loading cartridges (IBM 5440, DEC RL02, etc.). They were typically made of welded wire, and stored the cartridges on edge. I could use either the free-standing ones that sit on a shelf, or the ones that were designed to go in a Wrightline cabinet. I am in northwest Oregon and am willing to drive anywhere in the neighboring states to pick them up, or pay for packing and shipping. Thanks, Alan Frisbie From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 5 13:12:22 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 14:12:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? Message-ID: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Let me get this out before the list gets shut down _again_... There is discussion of doing a run of indicator panel inlays: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html for the RK11-C (which is wired for an indicator panel, although as far as I know, DEC never did the inlay). If you're interested... you will need a standard DEC indicator panel light panel (with flat cables with plug-in-cards on the ends). (I don't have any insight on how to get one of those. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to make replicas, but I'll leave that topic for the moment.) All I am proposing to do is create the silk-screened inlay that turns a DEC indicator panel into an RK11-C indicator panel (starting with a functional indicator penel without the inlay). All DEC indicator panels use the same actual light panel and flat cables/plug-in-cards (which have one conductor per light in the light panel); which light comes on is set by the way the backplane slots the cables/plug-in-cards plug into are wired. So from the prints, which give the wiring to the indicator panel slots, I managed to work out what an RK11-C panel would look like, roughly (captions are made up, but the light locations are accurate): http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt Starting with that, Dave Bridgham managed to whip up a rough approcimation of what the inlay would look like: http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-c.pdf We had put a certain amount of work into identifying a font which looks like the one DEC used, back when; I worked with a member the UK to produce a bunch of blank inlays (right size/shape, with the black paint on the back with the holes for the lights). Dave then found someone who could print the white lettering on the front, and this is what the result looked like, on an 'RK11-F' (the QSIC with RK emulation microcode) panel: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/RK11F-F.jpg You can compare with an original DEC inlay (TC08, IIRC) here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/DasBlinken2F.jpg That's on the same light panel, just the inlay is changed. (The lights in the lower one are from the light panel Dave produced for use with the QSIC; it's totally incompatible, electrically, with the DEC originals; 4 wires, IIRC, run the whole thing (data, clock, latch and a ground), as opposed to the 'wire per light' of the DEC originals. Looks _just_ like the originals (which Tech Sq used to have a lot of, BITD), though. Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it. Noel From jsw at ieee.org Sun Dec 5 13:48:30 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:48:30 -0600 Subject: External SCSI Drives on DEC2000 AXP In-Reply-To: References: <8bd6cf6a-9725-6da8-6ba1-e5d6caa75c08@gmail.com> Message-ID: DEC was were specific about the settings for SCSI mode that MicroVAX 3100 firmware and VAX/VMS would accept before enabling third party drives in that era. ? Not all early drives that would accurately do/report media recovery operations. Suggest you look at this post and compare to the SCSI drive settings. ? Its a bit of work, but I have updated the mode settings for drives used on my MicroVAX's.? I cannot speak for the DEC2000. https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms/c/RAaUpP_XXEw/m/BWn64YZYwBQJ Jerry On 12/5/21 9:08 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:dec2000 > Nigel, > If you have two drives of the same volume name in VMS that will cause > issues. You did not provide a lot of detail to give you specific answers. > > Its complex but here is a starting point > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=604&tid=18 > > I am a hobbyist in vms, not an expert. > > Bill > > On Sun, Dec 5, 2021, 8:46 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I am trying to format a couple of SCSI drives on the Alpha. They are >> connected using the external cable and are mounted in an Open Storage >> Systems (OSS) box. The drives were working when removed from a PC. >> >> SRM shows only one of them coming up as DKA200. I have set the two >> drive ID switches to 2 and 3. >> >> Lack of info is hampering me, I have gleaned form various sources that >> the following command should work: >> >>>>> t scsi format a 2 0 >> which just returns >> >>>>> OK >> immediately, without doing anything. >> >> VMS allows me to ini the disk, but then when I try to mount it, I get an >> operator services message saying it is offline, please mount volume in >> _$3$dka200: >> >> Anybody with experience here? >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> >> -- >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> >> From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 5 14:02:05 2021 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 20:02:05 +0000 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0adaabd9-39f4-3b82-b460-b67f29704c03@btinternet.com> Yes I have the blanks for these. Let me see what artwork I have Rod On 05/12/2021 19:12, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Let me get this out before the list gets shut down _again_... > > > There is discussion of doing a run of indicator panel inlays: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > for the RK11-C (which is wired for an indicator panel, although as far as > I know, DEC never did the inlay). > > If you're interested... you will need a standard DEC indicator panel light > panel (with flat cables with plug-in-cards on the ends). (I don't have any > insight on how to get one of those. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to make > replicas, but I'll leave that topic for the moment.) > > All I am proposing to do is create the silk-screened inlay that turns a DEC > indicator panel into an RK11-C indicator panel (starting with a functional > indicator penel without the inlay). > > > All DEC indicator panels use the same actual light panel and flat > cables/plug-in-cards (which have one conductor per light in the light panel); > which light comes on is set by the way the backplane slots the > cables/plug-in-cards plug into are wired. > > So from the prints, which give the wiring to the indicator panel slots, I > managed to work out what an RK11-C panel would look like, roughly (captions > are made up, but the light locations are accurate): > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt > > Starting with that, Dave Bridgham managed to whip up a rough approcimation of > what the inlay would look like: > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-c.pdf > > We had put a certain amount of work into identifying a font which looks like > the one DEC used, back when; I worked with a member the UK to produce a bunch > of blank inlays (right size/shape, with the black paint on the back with the > holes for the lights). Dave then found someone who could print the white > lettering on the front, and this is what the result looked like, on an > 'RK11-F' (the QSIC with RK emulation microcode) panel: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/RK11F-F.jpg > > You can compare with an original DEC inlay (TC08, IIRC) here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/DasBlinken2F.jpg > > That's on the same light panel, just the inlay is changed. (The lights in the > lower one are from the light panel Dave produced for use with the QSIC; it's > totally incompatible, electrically, with the DEC originals; 4 wires, IIRC, run > the whole thing (data, clock, latch and a ground), as opposed to the 'wire per > light' of the DEC originals. Looks _just_ like the originals (which Tech Sq > used to have a lot of, BITD), though. > > > Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all > wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it. > > Noel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 14:24:19 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 15:24:19 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 2:12 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > There is discussion of doing a run of indicator panel inlays: > for the RK11-C (which is wired for an indicator panel, although as far as > I know, DEC never did the inlay). > > If you're interested... you will need a standard DEC indicator panel light > panel (with flat cables with plug-in-cards on the ends). (I don't have any > insight on how to get one of those. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to make > replicas, but I'll leave that topic for the moment.) I have both an RK11-C, _and_ a DX11 light panel sitting around (got it loose some years back) > Starting with that, Dave Bridgham managed to whip up a rough approcimation of > what the inlay would look like: > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-c.pdf Looks cool. > Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all > wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it. Put me down for one. I've had this RK11-C for a long time and haven't done anything with it. I have always planned to put it back on the 11/20 it came with, but first I need to get the 11/20 going so that's pushed down the RK11-C. This would be really cool as a debugging tool more than just as amazing lights. -ethan P.S. - not to derail things, but definitely loop me in on the (future) thread for making reproductions. I have access to some tools that might make parts of it easier. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 5 14:28:53 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 20:28:53 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> Message-ID: <0a0a01d7ea16$b8976a70$29c63f50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger via > cctalk > Sent: 05 December 2021 14:51 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > On 12/5/2021 3:37 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > Thanks for the tips. The transformer that drives the bricks is a real beast. > Did you find an alternative more convenient way to power them on the > bench? > > > > From the schematics, some of them seem to want 20-30 VAC (some, like at > least one of the -15v regulators, take DC inputs from other regulators) > > For lower current initial testing I have some 24v 2A transformers lying > around. For higher current, I might use something like this guy: > > https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/triad-magnetics/F- > 401U/5032226 I have a variac rated at 2.5A. I am not quite sure whether that would be sufficient to test the bricks individually. Otherwise, I guess one of these would do the trick https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer ? > > JRJ From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Dec 5 15:18:50 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:18:50 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <0a0a01d7ea16$b8976a70$29c63f50$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <0a0a01d7ea16$b8976a70$29c63f50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <67D7CC11-F44E-4C61-96EC-41DBA610C5D7@fritzm.org> > On 12/5/2021 3:37 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for the tips. The transformer that drives the bricks is a real beast. Did you find an alternative more convenient way to power them on the bench? No, I just used the big transformer, since I needed to bench and disassemble the H742s themselves for cleaning, inspection, and repairs anyway. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Dec 5 15:26:42 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:26:42 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <924F5B72-812A-4F3D-8065-96EA4CB30DBF@fritzm.org> > On Dec 5, 2021, at 1:37 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I don't see the Kunkin unit for sale except for a couple of items on ebay from China. I am really reluctant to buy anything at all from China. I couldn't find a manufacturer site for them, and I was wondering if there are alternatives since they don't seem to be particularly available. Yes, just about any programmable DC load in this class will suffice. It?s just convenient to be able to punch in current or power limits, dial them up and down, and have everything including fans, thermal management, etc. in one compact package on the bench. At the time I was looking, the Kunkin, while yes, from China, had a lot hands-on reviews on YouTube. So I just went ahead with that. Worked out okay for me, but one kind of annoying thing is the banana jacks on the five-way binding posts don?t seem quite standard (!) ? I will probably change out the posts on mine. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 5 15:33:24 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 16:33:24 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <293209B3-A8EE-406D-B426-0695779954CE@comcast.net> > On Dec 5, 2021, at 3:24 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > I have both an RK11-C, _and_ a DX11 light panel sitting around (got it > loose some years back) Now *that* is a wonderfully obscure device. I wonder if any software for it exists anywhere. paul From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Dec 5 15:43:58 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 21:43:58 +0000 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: zondag 5 december 2021 20:12 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it. Noel I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 years ago)! However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ?paddle? connections boards. I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 MCP23S17 ICs. You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 outputs. Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 position one-slot block to put the 4 paddle boards in. Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to light up the lamps? Henk, PA8PDP From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 15:54:49 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:54:49 -0800 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 12:24 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 2:12 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > > > Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who > all > > wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on > it. > > Put me down for one. I've had this RK11-C for a long time and haven't > done anything with it. Ditto me. I snagged an RK11-C earlier this year and my plan is to get to restoring it sometime next year. - Josh > I have always planned to put it back on the > 11/20 it came with, but first I need to get the 11/20 going so that's > pushed down the RK11-C. This would be really cool as a debugging tool > more than just as amazing lights. > > -ethan > > P.S. - not to derail things, but definitely loop me in on the (future) > thread for making reproductions. I have access to some tools that > might make parts of it easier. > From spam at hell.org Sun Dec 5 00:14:23 2021 From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 06:14:23 +0000 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> Message-ID: Ugggh, as soon as I saw this conversation I new it was going to be a race to the bottom. Actually, it was far less worse than I expected, so progress, perhaps? I've been frustrated by the lack of women in the industry, because there's no rational reason for it and it feels like we're wasting half our talent pool. I've known too many women who were effectively chased out of the industry and the hobby because of creepy, insecure men and their enablers, and it's just infuriating. There's no reason for it, and I'm glad we're finally seeing pushback, role models and positive encouragement, and garbage behavior is increasingly less tolerated and called out. > Using the term ?woke? these days is a great way to render any point you are trying to make moot. Great > way to make people people not take you seriously. > > He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I don?t like having to acknowledge that > women exist in the field of computer history.? Yeah, "woke" is one of those terms, like "PC", that immediately signals that the speaker can immediately be dismissed out of hand as having nothing worthwhile to say. -mike From w9gb at icloud.com Sun Dec 5 13:45:21 2021 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:45:21 -0600 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 87, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5172F67E-7C29-4520-9E38-85FDE4C9721A@icloud.com> Power Supplies, due to their Weight, are placed at the bottom of Racks (prevent tip overs ? weight distribution). https://avitech.com.au/?page_id=366 The PDP-11/70 Maintenance and Installation Manual (EK-11070-MM-002) explains that the basic PDP-11/70 system components are located in a double cabinet as shown in Figure 1-1 of that manual. https://i0.wp.com/avitech.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/major-assemblies-fig-1-1.jpg greg > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 19:28:01 -0800 > From: Marc Howard > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet > > Hi, > > I've got an 11/40 I'm going to start working on. Problem is that there are > two power supplies (H742 and H7420) that came with it but neither was > mounted in the rack. > > Could someone post/send/etc. photos of how the power supply mounts in the > rack? Also how is the power cabling routed (I think I'm missing this part)? > > Thanks, > > Marc Howard From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Dec 5 16:20:14 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 15:20:14 -0700 Subject: Women of Computing In-Reply-To: References: <866b0f3a-c64b-52f3-0d49-9a7a706627a0@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, "woke" is one of those terms, like "PC", that immediately signals > that the speaker can immediately be dismissed out of hand as having nothing > worthwhile to say. > Especially in the context of historic computing. We aren't stopping anyone from talking about it, just not here. We don't talk about motorcycle repair, sourdough starters, quidditch, or the evolution of the mantis shrimp here either. Warner From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 18:38:26 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 19:38:26 -0500 Subject: Source for DEC TC01 (and similar) bulbs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: Source for DEC TC01 (and similar) bulbs? > > The Search Scope loop diagnostic shows block numbers going by in both > directions so a lot of the drive and controller are working, but there's > some glitchiness in bits 2, 5, 8, and 11 of the data so I need to trace > that down; I hope it's not the tape head. > > - Josh > So what do bits 2, 5, 8, & 11 have in common? All bits come from the same track on the tape head, and share some of the path to the Data Buffer. If you wrote this tape on this system, I would try reading a tape that was written on another machine to make sure that the problem didn't originate with writing. Check for a bad connection where the tape head cable connects to the G851 module in the TU55, where the G851 plugs into the TU55 backplane, and where the data cable plugs into the TU55 backplane, and possibly the K2 relay on the G851. In the TC01 you could swap the G888 module in slot C22, the S205 module in slot D05, the S205 module in slot E06, the S603 module in slot C02, or the R123 module in slot E08, with another one to see if the glitch moves to another bit. -- Michael Thompson From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 22:45:34 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 20:45:34 -0800 Subject: Source for DEC TC01 (and similar) bulbs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 4:39 PM Michael Thompson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > From: Josh Dersch > > Subject: Source for DEC TC01 (and similar) bulbs? > > > > The Search Scope loop diagnostic shows block numbers going by in both > > directions so a lot of the drive and controller are working, but there's > > some glitchiness in bits 2, 5, 8, and 11 of the data so I need to trace > > that down; I hope it's not the tape head. > > > > - Josh > > > > So what do bits 2, 5, 8, & 11 have in common? All bits come from the same > track on the tape head, and share some of the path to the Data Buffer. > Yep! > > If you wrote this tape on this system, I would try reading a tape that was > written on another machine to make sure that the problem didn't originate > with writing. > The TC01 isn't quite up for writing things yet (well, I haven't tried, but I suspect it wouldn't go well). The tapes I've been trying are known-good DECtapes I have, that I've read on my 8/m with its TD8E without issues. > > Check for a bad connection where the tape head cable connects to the G851 > module in the TU55, where the G851 plugs into the TU55 backplane, and where > the data cable plugs into the TU55 backplane, and possibly the K2 relay on > the G851. > > In the TC01 you could swap the G888 module in slot C22, the S205 module in > slot D05, the S205 module in slot E06, the S603 module in slot C02, or the > R123 module in slot E08, with another one to see if the glitch moves to > another bit. > I swapped boards around in the datapath for these bits on the TC01 side last night and the problem doesn't move. On a whim I put my thumb on the tape as it passes over the head and it seems to affect the glitchiness of the data, at times making it appear to go away entirely. Doesn't appear to be a tape tension problem -- it seems adequate and putting my thumb on the supply reel to increase tension a bit does not have the same effect. This would seem to point to the TU55 being the issue, and quite possibly the heads. I haven't had time today to look at the signals coming off the heads but I plan to soon. Thanks for the help! - Josh > > -- > Michael Thompson > From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 00:45:15 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 01:45:15 -0500 Subject: Unrecognized DEC Power Supply in PDP-11/44 Configuration In-Reply-To: <1bd6f864-e215-50ac-04d2-106e77caee64@dunnington.plus.com> References: <051801d7e789$0c434530$24c9cf90$@gmail.com> <1bd6f864-e215-50ac-04d2-106e77caee64@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <0a3d01d7ea6c$d3e77d50$7bb677f0$@gmail.com> Josh & Pete: Thank you for the identification. Don't think that the unidentified quad-boards constitute a SMD controller. I guess the SMD controller was in the second chassis and went wherever the HDD went. Strange that the PS didn't go with it. I can feel a bit better for not having recognized the PS :-}. Rick: The UDA50 is cabled up the rear of the rack to a connector-plate near the top of the rear-rails. No photo of the plate present, but the cabling is clear on the side-photo of the rack. So presumably there was a second rack in the original configuration ... probably also housing a vertical-mount 9" tape drive. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 3, 2021 9:30 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Unrecognized DEC Power Supply in PDP-11/44 Configuration On 02/12/2021 16:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:29 AM pbirkel--- via cctalk > > wrote: > >> Does anyone recognize the (presumably) DEC power supply on the front >> half of the rack-bottom in the 11/44 listing at: > It's not a DEC power supply, it's a Fujitsu power supply, likely for > an > M2284 SMD drive. Probably went in the empty slot you mention below. Yep. Looks identical to the Fujitsu PSU in my 11/40 rack, and the rails are the same as my Fujitsu rails. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From compoobah at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 08:31:19 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 06:31:19 -0800 Subject: Women of computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2021-12-05 at 12:00 -0600, Brie wrote: > > He may as well have just come out and said, ?It triggers me and I > don?t like having to acknowledge that women exist in the field of > computer history.? > > ? Brie Sorry to go off topic, but I have friends and family who are veterans or otherwise have had horrible experiences. They get triggered. What this sentence is describing is someone getting mildly annoyed. From dab at froghouse.org Mon Dec 6 08:42:00 2021 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:42:00 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9f183397-6591-fe21-b329-dfa22a5c14c9@froghouse.org> On 12/5/21 3:24 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > This would be really cool as a debugging tool > more than just as amazing lights. A great lead-in to my story.? I was working away on the RK11 implementation in the QSIC and when I felt like taking a break but still wanted to get something done, I'd work on the indicator panel.? Of course, the indicator panel ended working before the RK11.? Just having 144 lights that I could assign to any purpose was useful but then came the day when the RK11 was mostly working.? I loaded up an RK11 exerciser program that Noel wrote and just sat back to bask in the glow of the blinking lights.? It was a good feeling. Then I noticed something that wasn't right.? Even though the exerciser was working, I saw a pattern in the lights that showed up a bug in my implementation.? I'd really only implemented the indicator panel because I thought it was fun but it lead me to a bug to fix right off. Here's a short video clip of the indicator panel in operation and showing that bug.? I'll leave this for a day or two (or until I remember again or someone asks) and then say what it is I saw.? I think anyone with a reasonable familiarity with the QBUS will be able to pick it out though I'll say that "Latched Address" is the address "half" of the data/Address Lines, that is the value of those signals when SYNC is asserted. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/ip-full.mp4 > P.S. - not to derail things, but definitely loop me in on the (future) > thread for making reproductions. I have access to some tools that > might make parts of it easier. The inlays are mostly not done with any tools I have.? I do the graphics with Inkscape.? Rod made up the blanks with silk screening.? Then I have the white printing done at a printshop I found who has a large, flatbed printer that can print white ink.? I do have some ideas about how I might try to make up blanks with a laser etcher I have access to but at the moment we have an ample supply. Also, I've experimented with making my own bezels out of PVC board from Home Depot using a CNC router.? In the pictures below, the yellowed bezels are old DEC bezels while the white ones are ones I made.? I figured that if we ever get the QSIC shipping and people want indicator panels (I hope they'll want indicator panels), I'd rather not depend on them ripping apart old DEC bezels to make this work. Anyway, I'd be most happy to have another person with more tools to help build bits and pieces of this stuff.? I've noticed that as I gained access to different tools, I came up with different ideas about how to make things.? I didn't think the laser etcher was all that useful until I started using it.? Now I want to use it for everything.? Turns out it can't quite handle 3/8" Delrin; it just melts it and makes a mess.? Speaking of help, if anyone wants to review the QSIC design, I'd welcome that.? This is by far the most complex circuit board I've ever designed. Back to indicator panels, here's a picture showing a bit of the evolution of my indicator panels.? The video above shows it really early, when I just taped a paper inlay to the circuit boards.? Then the bottom panel in this picture is taping that paper inlay to an MDF light shield.? The top panel is using one of Rod's blanks with paper labels taped to it.? And then the third panel down is a printed inlay like we're talking about now for the RK11-C.? The second indicator panel is a TC08 inlay that I borrowed from Noel to use as a model as I worked on the graphics for our own. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indicator-panel-stack.jpg Here's a close-up of the TC08 and our printed inlay.? I'm rather pleased with how it looks, I have to admit.? The only real thing I'd like to change is the gloss.? Somehow, DEC's inlay is as flat as flat can be.? There is no glare to it whatsoever while ours are quite glossy.? I've looked at frosted acrylic and it's a little better though really it just diffuses the glare, it doesn't eliminate it.? I've also tried some spray-on frosting which helps a little but it also has a tendency for its solvents to melt the printing that's already there so that's a bit fraught. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indicator-panel-printed.jpg Dave From dab at froghouse.org Mon Dec 6 08:52:20 2021 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:52:20 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 years ago)! > However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ?paddle? connections boards. > I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 MCP23S17 ICs. > You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 outputs. > Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 position one-slot block > to put the 4 paddle boards in. Fun.? That's a way to get some more lights into your life.? I like it. > Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to light up the lamps? I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an RK11-C.? Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense. The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along with one of our QSICs or USICs.? I could add an option to drive an RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort). Dave From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Dec 6 09:13:09 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:13:09 +0000 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> Message-ID: Van: David Bridgham via cctalk Verzonden: maandag 6 december 2021 15:52 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 years ago)! > However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ?paddle? connections boards. > I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 MCP23S17 ICs. > You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 outputs. > Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 position one-slot block > to put the 4 paddle boards in. Fun. That's a way to get some more lights into your life. I like it. > Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to light up the lamps? I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an RK11-C. Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense. The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along with one of our QSICs or USICs. I could add an option to drive an RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort). Dave If this RK11-C ?blinkenlight? panel would also become available in a 60% scaled format, I would buy it immediately. It would be an ??bercool? addition to the PiDP-11/70 and my 60% scaled (?working?) RK05 drive. I only modified the files pdp11_cpu and pdp11_rk05, and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the door / disk loading. see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the bottom of the page). I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm (warm-white) LEDs (if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish). Henk, PA8PDP From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 6 09:36:00 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:36:00 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> One dumb suggestion to make it easier to control 144 lamps is to use addressable LEDs.? You can control them in banks or all in a single serial line.? If you use a single line you can control all of them with just 1 GPIO. Each LED requires 24 bits of data.? That would be 3,456 bits.? The WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.? That would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs. Since these are tri-color LEDs you can control the color and simulate incandescent lamps (Simh and the PiDP-8/i do this with LED PWM via an x/y matrix). Another advantage to the LEDs is once they are set, you don't have to talk to them again until you need to change something. I am going to use a Raspberry Pi Pico RP2040 CPU's PIO co-processor to drive the LEDS from a 432 byte array in memory.? All I do is update which LEDs I want to change and the PIO DMAs the entire array to the LED chain once every 10mS (or slower depending on need). On 12/6/2021 9:13 AM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > Van: David Bridgham via cctalk > Verzonden: maandag 6 december 2021 15:52 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? > > On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > >> I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 years ago)! >> However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ?paddle? connections boards. >> I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 MCP23S17 ICs. >> You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 outputs. >> Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 position one-slot block >> to put the 4 paddle boards in. > Fun. That's a way to get some more lights into your life. I like it. > > >> Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to light up the lamps? > > I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an > RK11-C. Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense. > > The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along > with one of our QSICs or USICs. I could add an option to drive an > RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the > RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more > functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the > RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort). > > Dave > > If this RK11-C ?blinkenlight? panel would also become available in a 60% scaled format, > I would buy it immediately. It would be an ??bercool? addition to the PiDP-11/70 and > my 60% scaled (?working?) RK05 drive. I only modified the files pdp11_cpu and pdp11_rk05, > and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the door / disk loading. > see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the bottom of the page). > I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm (warm-white) LEDs > (if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish). > > Henk, PA8PDP From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 09:39:33 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 10:39:33 -0500 Subject: Source for DEC TC01 (and similar) bulbs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 11:46 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > I swapped boards around in the datapath for these bits on the TC01 side > last night and the problem doesn't move. On a whim I put my thumb on the > tape as it passes over the head and it seems to affect the glitchiness of > the data, at times making it appear to go away entirely. Doesn't appear to > be a tape tension problem -- it seems adequate and putting my thumb on the > supply reel to increase tension a bit does not have the same effect. This > would seem to point to the TU55 being the issue, and quite possibly the > heads. I haven't had time today to look at the signals coming off the > heads but I plan to soon. > > Thanks for the help! > - Josh > I would measure the resistance of the head coils at the relay board connector. Hopefully they all measure about the same. Figure 2-2 in the maintenance manual shows how the MARK and DATA tracks are wired, and the extra connection available for the TIMING track. We found a head on the PDP-9 where the +D0 connection was open. -- Michael Thompson From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 10:22:01 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:22:01 -0500 Subject: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels (was Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?) Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:42 AM David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > The inlays are mostly not done with any tools I have. I do the graphics > with Inkscape. Rod made up the blanks with silk screening. Then I have > the white printing done at a printshop I found who has a large, flatbed > printer that can print white ink. I do have some ideas about how I > might try to make up blanks with a laser etcher I have access to but at > the moment we have an ample supply. Cool. > Also, I've experimented with making my own bezels out of PVC board from > Home Depot using a CNC router. In the pictures below, the yellowed > bezels are old DEC bezels while the white ones are ones I made. I > figured that if we ever get the QSIC shipping and people want indicator > panels (I hope they'll want indicator panels), I'd rather not depend on > them ripping apart old DEC bezels to make this work. Yes. I'd rather not demolish my only indicator panel. I was planning on demolishing a blank (I have a few short blanks, but most people do not) > Anyway, I'd be most happy to have another person with more tools to help > build bits and pieces of this stuff. I've noticed that as I gained > access to different tools, I came up with different ideas about how to > make things. I didn't think the laser etcher was all that useful until > I started using it. I have a small 40W laser etcher that I essentially haven't used since I have had access to large-format 80-120W laser cutters. As for tools, I can rent a 4'x8' Shopbot router at our local Makerspace that can turn out the light blocking bar or, from your file, the frame. We also have a local company (IC3D) that makes cubic-meter 3D Printers and makes their own filament from pellets, keeping costs down. The founders are friends of mine and I've helped repair sensors on their manufacturing line. If I had an STL, I could get a bid on what it would take to 3D print one. It wouldn't be as smooth as a machined PVC foam milled one, but it would be strong. With a little post processing, a 3D Printed frame may give an adequate look. Just a possibility. I haven't worked with PVC foam much but I understand the principle. > Now I want to use it for everything. Turns out it > can't quite handle 3/8" Delrin; it just melts it and makes a mess. That sounds like a power problem. Normally, Delrin lasers quite nicely, at least at 80W. Thick stuff is hard in any printer because of lenses, beam diffusion, etc. We sometimes have problems with 1/2" material of any kind in ours. I've done some stuff in 2 passes, one high, one low (refocusing/repositioning Z axis between job runs). We also have multiple lenses for different focal points. One is only good for etching/surface work, and one is good for cutting 3/8" and thicker materials. We usually use the middle one since 99% of what goes into our laser is 3-6mm stock. > Speaking of help, if anyone wants to review the QSIC design, I'd welcome > that. This is by far the most complex circuit board I've ever designed. I could take a look at it, I have some background in making Qbus and Unibus interfaces, but how useful I'd be depends on what kind of feedback you are looking for. > Back to indicator panels, here's a picture showing a bit of the > evolution of my indicator panels... > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indicator-panel-stack.jpg > > ... The only real thing I'd like to > change is the gloss. Somehow, DEC's inlay is as flat as flat can be. I did notice that. I have no idea what to recommend. AFAIK, DEC just used an acrylic with a specific surface texture. The only stuff I can get is like what you have - smooth as window glass. Cheers, -ethan From dab at froghouse.org Mon Dec 6 13:45:53 2021 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:45:53 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <1eb36c9c-dc7c-fb7a-cffa-b475f50e873e@froghouse.org> On 12/6/21 10:13 AM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > If this RK11-C ?blinkenlight? panel would also become available in a 60% scaled format, > I would buy it immediately. It would be an ??bercool? addition to the PiDP-11/70 and > my 60% scaled (?working?) RK05 drive. I only modified the files pdp11_cpu and pdp11_rk05, > and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the door / disk loading. > see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the bottom of the page). > I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm (warm-white) LEDs > (if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish). I do agree that it would be very cool to add a scaled indicator panel to your PiDP-11 and scaled RK05.? You'd have to do new scaled circuit boards to be driven from the RPi and a new scaled bezel and light-shield as well as the inlay.? It's all possible but I don't think I'll be doing it.? You are most welcome, though, to the work I've done on any and all of those pieces if you want to take them and scale them down. If you watched the little video I posted of my early blinking lights, you probably noticed how blue those white LEDs were.? I've since switched to a different LED that looks, at least to my eye, a whole lot better.? In these pictures you can see a comparison. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/new-led.jpg http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/new-led-2.jpg Dave From cruff at ruffspot.net Mon Dec 6 12:39:33 2021 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:39:33 -0700 Subject: External SCSI Drives on DEC2000 AXP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you verified that the SCSI bus is terminated properly? A missing or improperly configured terminator can sometimes cause those sort of symptoms. From w9gb at icloud.com Mon Dec 6 13:02:59 2021 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 13:02:59 -0600 Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet Message-ID: <61EA265E-B54D-45BF-AEDE-EF84369FB321@icloud.com> Power Supplies, due to their Weight, are placed at the bottom of Racks (prevent tip overs / weight distribution). https://avitech.com.au/?page_id=366 The PDP-11/70 Maintenance and Installation Manual (EK-11070-MM-002) explains that the basic PDP-11/70 system components are located in a double cabinet as shown in Figure 1-1 of that manual. https://i0.wp.com/avitech.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/major-assemblies-fig-1-1.jpg greg > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 19:28:01 -0800 > From: Marc Howard > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet From dab at froghouse.org Mon Dec 6 14:07:34 2021 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:07:34 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> On 12/6/21 10:36 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Each LED requires 24 bits of data.? That would be 3,456 bits.? The > WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.? That > would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs. If I'd known about those when I designed my boards, I might well have gone that way.? They're surprisingly inexpensive even. Instead, I ended up using a 16-LED driver chip that basically looks like a shift-register.? I clock in the 144 bits (just on-off, no fancy tri-color LEDs I'm afraid), toggle the latch signal, and there it is.? If you want to support more indicator panels, it's just a longer shift register.? I then added RS422 driver chips for noise immunity and there I was. Dave From g4ajq1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 14:00:54 2021 From: g4ajq1 at gmail.com (Nigel Johnson Ham) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:00:54 -0500 Subject: External SCSI Drives on DEC2000 AXP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, terminator installed as it was when the box was on a PC, with the LED lit. Thanks Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-12-06 1:39 p.m., Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > Have you verified that the SCSI bus is terminated properly? A missing or improperly configured terminator can sometimes cause those sort of symptoms. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 6 14:27:00 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 13:27:00 -0700 Subject: PDP - 11 was RK11-C indicator panel inlays? - In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 2021-12-06 8:13 a.m., Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > Van: David Bridgham via cctalk > Verzonden: maandag 6 december 2021 15:52 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? > > On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > >> I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 years ago)! >> However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ?paddle? connections boards. >> I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 MCP23S17 ICs. >> You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 outputs. >> Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 position one-slot block >> to put the 4 paddle boards in. > > Fun. That's a way to get some more lights into your life. I like it. > > >> Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to light up the lamps? > > > I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an > RK11-C. Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense. > > The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along > with one of our QSICs or USICs. I could add an option to drive an > RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the > RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more > functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the > RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort). > > Dave > > If this RK11-C ?blinkenlight? panel would also become available in a 60% scaled format, > I would buy it immediately. It would be an ??bercool? addition to the PiDP-11/70 and > my 60% scaled (?working?) RK05 drive. I only modified the files pdp11_cpu and pdp11_rk05, > and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the door / disk loading. > see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the bottom of the page). > I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm (warm-white) LEDs > (if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish). > > Henk, PA8PDP > USB yuck, is what comes to mind. Other than that the project looks good. I just built a prototype front panel, with 5 mm white leds, @ 4.5 ma each and they are really bright. You want diffused leds or a filter because you can see the phosphor when the leds are off. CMOS 20v10's drive the leds and read the keyboard switches. load switches, the shift in display data, and read switch data out. Display led data for bit of time a repeat. 10 inches long and 5 inches high card size. I have been using 16 meg SD cards (standard size) to emulate RK05 style drives for home brew 20 bit cpu (DE1 ALTERA), but your drives would make much more impressive system. 5 2901's are planned for the cpu card, and the control card has about 12 MSI TTL, 2 512x8 proms and 4 20v10's. 10 inches x 6 form factor and S-100 bus connectors. This leads me to believe that a PDP-11 could be built also at 60% scale using PDP-11 parts or 2901's. I would like to see that, rather than some PI version. Ben. PS: How much would a RK05 replica sell for? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 15:05:29 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:05:29 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > One dumb suggestion to make it easier to control 144 lamps is to use > addressable LEDs. You can control them in banks or all in a single > serial line. If you use a single line you can control all of them with > just 1 GPIO. > > Each LED requires 24 bits of data. That would be 3,456 bits. The > WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit. That > would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs. If 200Hz isn't fast enough for updates, and you have more GPIOs, you can implement this as, say, 4 strands and write out nybbles. There are cheap video wall that use MCUs with DMA engines and pump out 8 strips at once. > Since these are tri-color LEDs you can control the color and simulate > incandescent lamps Definitely > Another advantage to the LEDs is once they are set, you don't have to > talk to them again until you need to change something. Yep. Self-latching. > I am going to use a Raspberry Pi Pico RP2040 CPU's PIO co-processor to > drive the LEDS from a 432 byte array in memory. All I do is update > which LEDs I want to change and the PIO DMAs the entire array to the LED > chain once every 10mS (or slower depending on need). Sounds like a great approach. I have a couple of Picos but haven't dug into the PIO engines yet. I've been working with WS2812B LEDs for a while now and enjoyed watching the cost per LED plummet from a few years ago. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 6 16:28:17 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:28:17 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <78D48849-2D1D-4411-A9A6-81A44A1C7804@comcast.net> > On Dec 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > > Sounds like a great approach. I have a couple of Picos but haven't > dug into the PIO engines yet. Raspberry Pico PIO engines are seriously cool. I used them to implement DDCMP synchronous line protocol in a small USB device wrapped around one of those devices. That includes the "integral mode" modulate/clock recovery/demodulate functions. Something I haven't tried but appears possible: 10 Mb/s Ethernet using the PIO. At least full duplex, and perhaps even half duplex. Not a whole lot of point in that, I suppose. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 16:37:47 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:37:47 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <78D48849-2D1D-4411-A9A6-81A44A1C7804@comcast.net> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <78D48849-2D1D-4411-A9A6-81A44A1C7804@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 5:28 PM Paul Koning wrote: > Raspberry Pico PIO engines are seriously cool. I used them to implement DDCMP synchronous line protocol in a small USB device wrapped around one of those devices. That includes the "integral mode" modulate/clock recovery/demodulate functions. Ooh! That's neat. Sounds like it could also become a nice Bisync or SDLC serial adapter for IBM protocols (something from _my_ background) But it should probably get its own thread. ;-) -ethan From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 6 16:45:29 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:45:29 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> One of my zillions of projects is to redesign Oscar Vermilion's PdDP-8/I using the Raspberry Pi Pico board and these LEDs. I would use one core for SIMH (the PDP-8 simulator) and one core for the Incandescent Emulation. Right now I'm too busy finding parts for my real PDP-8/E and getting it running. Think of the addressable LEDs and LEDs with the shift register built in ?. When you are ready for a redesign, you might consider it for a cost reduction. If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers on the edge connectors? Thanks and good luck, ????????????????? Mike On 12/6/2021 2:07 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 12/6/21 10:36 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > >> Each LED requires 24 bits of data.? That would be 3,456 bits.? The >> WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.? That >> would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs. > > If I'd known about those when I designed my boards, I might well have > gone that way.? They're surprisingly inexpensive even. > > Instead, I ended up using a 16-LED driver chip that basically looks like > a shift-register.? I clock in the 144 bits (just on-off, no fancy > tri-color LEDs I'm afraid), toggle the latch signal, and there it is. > If you want to support more indicator panels, it's just a longer shift > register.? I then added RS422 driver chips for noise immunity and there > I was. > > Dave > > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 6 16:46:30 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:46:30 -0600 Subject: PDP - 11 was RK11-C indicator panel inlays? - In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <7eed7a8f-76c2-a2f4-8e52-4adacbf8c4d4@12bitsbest.com> i'm interested in the RK05 Replica also. On 12/6/2021 2:27 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-12-06 8:13 a.m., Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> Van: David Bridgham via cctalk >> Verzonden: maandag 6 december 2021 15:52 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts >> Onderwerp: Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? >> >> On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on >>> eBay some 15 years ago)! >>> However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 >>> ?paddle? connections boards. >>> I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and >>> 10 MCP23S17 ICs. >>> You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the >>> MCP23S17 outputs. >>> Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a >>> 4 position one-slot block >>> to put the 4 paddle boards in. >> >> Fun.? That's a way to get some more lights into your life.? I like it. >> >> >>> Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you >>> do to light up the lamps? >> >> >> I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an >> RK11-C.? Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense. >> >> The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along >> with one of our QSICs or USICs.? I could add an option to drive an >> RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the >> RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more >> functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the >> RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort). >> >> Dave >> >> If this RK11-C ?blinkenlight? panel would also become available in a >> 60% scaled format, >> I would buy it immediately. It would be an ??bercool? addition to the >> PiDP-11/70 and >> my 60% scaled (?working?) RK05 drive. I only modified the files >> pdp11_cpu and pdp11_rk05, >> and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the >> door / disk loading. >> see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the >> bottom of the page). >> I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm >> (warm-white) LEDs >> (if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish). >> >> Henk, PA8PDP >> > > USB yuck, is what comes to mind. Other than that the project looks good. > > I just built a prototype front panel, with 5 mm white leds, @ 4.5 ma > each and they are really bright. You want diffused leds or a filter > because you can see the phosphor when the leds are off. CMOS 20v10's > drive the leds and read the keyboard switches. load switches, the > shift in display data, and read switch data out. Display led data > for bit of time a repeat. 10 inches long and 5 inches high card size. > > > I have been using 16 meg SD cards (standard size) to emulate RK05 > style drives for home brew 20 bit cpu (DE1 ALTERA), but your drives > would make much more impressive system. 5 2901's are planned for > the cpu card, and the control card has about 12 MSI TTL, 2 512x8 proms > and 4 20v10's. 10 inches x 6 form factor and S-100 bus connectors. > > This leads me to believe that a PDP-11 could be built also at 60% scale > using PDP-11 parts or 2901's. I would like to see that, rather than some > PI version. > > Ben. > PS: How much would a RK05 replica sell for? > > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 6 16:55:41 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:55:41 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: Ethan, I completely agree with reducing the strip size. One of my projects is a redesign of Oscar Vermilion's PiDP-8/I using addressable LEDs.? I was thinking of breaking the 88 LEDs into separate strands based on function (step counter & Multiplier Quotient [17 LEDs], accumulator and link [13 LEDs], Memory Buffer [12 LEDs], Memory Address [12 LEDs], Data & Instruction Fields and Program Counter [18 bits], Instruction & States [17 :LEDs]).? That would require 6 GPIOs. I don't know if the PIO can handle 6 separate GPIOs like that but it's worth a try. ?????????? Mike On 12/6/2021 3:05 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: >> One dumb suggestion to make it easier to control 144 lamps is to use >> addressable LEDs. You can control them in banks or all in a single >> serial line. If you use a single line you can control all of them with >> just 1 GPIO. >> >> Each LED requires 24 bits of data. That would be 3,456 bits. The >> WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit. That >> would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs. > If 200Hz isn't fast enough for updates, and you have more GPIOs, you > can implement this as, say, 4 strands and write out nybbles. There > are cheap video wall that use MCUs with DMA engines and pump out 8 > strips at once. > >> Since these are tri-color LEDs you can control the color and simulate >> incandescent lamps > Definitely > >> Another advantage to the LEDs is once they are set, you don't have to >> talk to them again until you need to change something. > Yep. Self-latching. > >> I am going to use a Raspberry Pi Pico RP2040 CPU's PIO co-processor to >> drive the LEDS from a 432 byte array in memory. All I do is update >> which LEDs I want to change and the PIO DMAs the entire array to the LED >> chain once every 10mS (or slower depending on need). > Sounds like a great approach. I have a couple of Picos but haven't > dug into the PIO engines yet. > > I've been working with WS2812B LEDs for a while now and enjoyed > watching the cost per LED plummet from a few years ago. > > -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 6 17:07:39 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:07:39 -0800 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How do > I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the > board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers > on the edge connectors? > Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* going to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which IMHO is the only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards and sockets). I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold fingers (they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).? When you submit your Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers and how you want them plated.? I have been 100% satisfied with the boards that I've received from them. TTFN - Guy From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 6 17:50:24 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:50:24 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and how expensive for omnibus size boards? On 12/6/2021 5:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How >> do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify >> the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold >> fingers on the edge connectors? >> > Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* going > to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which IMHO is > the only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards and > sockets). > > I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold fingers > (they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).? When you submit your > Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers and how you > want them plated.? I have been 100% satisfied with the boards that > I've received from them. > > TTFN - Guy > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 6 18:21:44 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 16:21:44 -0800 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: I haven't priced anything out yet.? My current project will have reasonably large sized board but will be using DIN 41612 style connectors (so I don't need edge fingers).? I haven't gone to different board vendors yet to see what pricing will be yet (still settling on board size and number of layers...right now it looks like it'll be 4 layers). On 12/6/21 3:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and > how expensive for omnibus size boards? > > On 12/6/2021 5:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How >>> do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify >>> the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold >>> fingers on the edge connectors? >>> >> Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* >> going to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which >> IMHO is the only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards >> and sockets). >> >> I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold >> fingers (they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).? When you submit >> your Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers and how >> you want them plated.? I have been 100% satisfied with the boards >> that I've received from them. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> > -- TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 6 18:33:21 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 18:33:21 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <247f26f1-1c16-9e9c-c54c-4db770c31e72@pico-systems.com> On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > For other boards without gold fingers where would you > recommend and how expensive for omnibus size boards? I've been using PCBway in China.? Usually, the DHL shipping is more expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards will be less than US $20 each, if you get a few copies made. Jon From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 6 18:43:13 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 18:43:13 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <247f26f1-1c16-9e9c-c54c-4db770c31e72@pico-systems.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> <247f26f1-1c16-9e9c-c54c-4db770c31e72@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Thank you. On 12/6/2021 6:33 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and >> how expensive for omnibus size boards? > > I've been using PCBway in China.? Usually, the DHL shipping is more > expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards will be less than > US $20 each, if you get a few copies made. > > Jon > > From dab at froghouse.org Mon Dec 6 18:44:55 2021 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:44:55 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <61d5068d-862c-67c0-6d92-8ea6dd1ddff5@froghouse.org> On 12/6/21 17:45, Mike Katz wrote: > If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How do > I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the > board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers > on the edge connectors? I was planning to try PCBWay for my boards. They say they do hard gold fingers and they have a board assembly option that looks like it can do what I need. I haven't used them before so this will be an experiment in that direction as well. If you're using KiCad for your designs (and if the Omnibus uses the standard DEC boards), I have templates for double and quad height? boards that you're welcome to. Since I haven't yet made boards from them, check yourself that they're right before ordering but at least they'd be a start. Dave From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Dec 6 18:44:59 2021 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:44:59 -0500 Subject: Hand tool to remove a difficult (stuck) circuit board References: <00c601d7eb03$aa8fa990$ffaefcb0$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00c601d7eb03$aa8fa990$ffaefcb0$@verizon.net> I remember seeing this somewhere. I have done a fair amount of googling with no luck. I'm looking for a hand tool with a plyer like grip at the top of a shaft. At the bottom of the shaft there is a "foot" that, when you squeeze the grip, scissors open. The idea being that you slide the foot down between a daughter card and the motherboard it is stuck in and when you squeeze the grip, it lifts the card out of the slot. Anybody know what this tool is called and/or where to get one? Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 6 19:48:26 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:48:26 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <61d5068d-862c-67c0-6d92-8ea6dd1ddff5@froghouse.org> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <61d5068d-862c-67c0-6d92-8ea6dd1ddff5@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <0244521c-7eb7-d13d-9340-42efcf49157c@12bitsbest.com> I am currently using kicad for the stuff from other PDP-8/omnibus creators but I intensely dislike the user interface paradigm on kicad. We use Altium at work and I have been thinking about using that. On 12/6/2021 6:44 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > On 12/6/21 17:45, Mike Katz wrote: > >> If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How >> do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify >> the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold >> fingers on the edge connectors? > > > I was planning to try PCBWay for my boards. They say they do hard gold > fingers and they have a board assembly option that looks like it can > do what I need. I haven't used them before so this will be an > experiment in that direction as well. > > If you're using KiCad for your designs (and if the Omnibus uses the > standard DEC boards), I have templates for double and quad height? > boards that you're welcome to. Since I haven't yet made boards from > them, check yourself that they're right before ordering but at least > they'd be a start. > > Dave > From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Dec 6 19:52:11 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:52:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <247f26f1-1c16-9e9c-c54c-4db770c31e72@pico-systems.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> <247f26f1-1c16-9e9c-c54c-4db770c31e72@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1464671702.2458079.1638841931007@email.ionos.com> > On 12/06/2021 6:33 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > For other boards without gold fingers where would you > > recommend and how expensive for omnibus size boards? > I've been using PCBway in China. Usually, the DHL shipping > is more expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards > will be less than US $20 each, if you get a few copies made. > > Jon Another good option is jlcpcb.com in China. They are very similar to PCBWay. I and others I know have been very pleased with them. Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 6 20:37:07 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 21:37:07 -0500 Subject: FTGH: PDP-11 Software Source Book, 3rd Ed Message-ID: <560f8a64-030c-bd06-9203-ad0b8b4f1e4b@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, 2 volumes, Applications and System. See: https://imgur.com/a/ISXGK5N FTGH for postage from Toronto, Canada --Toby From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Dec 6 23:01:58 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 21:01:58 -0800 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <1464671702.2458079.1638841931007@email.ionos.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> <247f26f1-1c16-9e9c-c54c-4db770c31e72@pico-systems.com> <1464671702.2458079.1638841931007@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <8842744A-4EF9-4E21-A9E3-45A3BC6ECF13@fritzm.org> > On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and how expensive for omnibus size boards? > On 12/06/2021 6:33 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I've been using PCBway in China. Usually, the DHL shipping is more expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards will be less than US $20 each, if you get a few copies made. > On Dec 6, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Another good option is jlcpcb.com in China. They are very similar to PCBWay. I and others I know have been very pleased with them. I?ve had good experiences lately with both pcbway and jlpcb. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 23:37:38 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 21:37:38 -0800 Subject: Source for DEC TC01 (and similar) bulbs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:39 AM Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 11:46 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I swapped boards around in the datapath for these bits on the TC01 side >> last night and the problem doesn't move. On a whim I put my thumb on the >> tape as it passes over the head and it seems to affect the glitchiness of >> the data, at times making it appear to go away entirely. Doesn't appear to >> be a tape tension problem -- it seems adequate and putting my thumb on the >> supply reel to increase tension a bit does not have the same effect. This >> would seem to point to the TU55 being the issue, and quite possibly the >> heads. I haven't had time today to look at the signals coming off the >> heads but I plan to soon. >> >> Thanks for the help! >> - Josh >> > > I would measure the resistance of the head coils at the relay board > connector. Hopefully they all measure about the same. Figure 2-2 in the > maintenance manual shows how the MARK and DATA tracks are wired, and the > extra connection available for the TIMING track. We found a head on the > PDP-9 where the +D0 connection was open. > Looks like I lucked out. Testing the head signals at the backplane on the TU55 revealed that pin BD1 was a flat line at about -0.5V. Turned out to be a bad relay on the G851 relay board. (There was also some gnarly black gunk on the pins on the head connector which somehow wasn't the problem...) I don't have any spare relays, but I swapped a G851 in from my TU56 and the glitches have gone away. If anyone has any spare relays for these, or a G851 lying around, let me know. The Basic Search diagnostic still isn't finding any blocks on the tape, and I can tell by the lights on the panel that the LPB register isn't doing much of anything, so I have some more debugging to do. But I'm really glad that the TU55 is OK. Thanks for the help! - Josh > > -- > Michael Thompson > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 02:30:18 2021 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 02:30:18 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <8842744A-4EF9-4E21-A9E3-45A3BC6ECF13@fritzm.org> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> <247f26f1-1c16-9e9c-c54c-4db770c31e72@pico-systems.com> <1464671702.2458079.1638841931007@email.ionos.com> <8842744A-4EF9-4E21-A9E3-45A3BC6ECF13@fritzm.org> Message-ID: If anyone needs a backplane or two please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 11:02 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and how > expensive for omnibus size boards? > > > > On 12/06/2021 6:33 PM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > I've been using PCBway in China. Usually, the DHL shipping is more > expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards will be less than US > $20 each, if you get a few copies made. > > > On Dec 6, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > Another good option is jlcpcb.com in China. They are very similar to > PCBWay. I and others I know have been very pleased with them. > > I?ve had good experiences lately with both pcbway and jlpcb. > > > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Dec 7 05:27:15 2021 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 06:27:15 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: I've used PCBCart.com to have thousands of boards produced. Mostly with gold fingers They've done a good job with the boards, though they're mostly two-layer and not overly complicated. You just tell them how many gold fingers you want (and if you get it wrong, their design check will clarify with you). You also can specify if you want a chamfer on the edge and the degree of that chamfer Things weren't good when the tariffs were in effect and the shippers didn't understand what the PCB tariffs applied to and what they didn't.? That added a lot to the cost. That's back to normal now but prices are up (like everything else). Todd On 12/6/2021 5:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > One of my zillions of projects is to redesign Oscar Vermilion's > PdDP-8/I using the Raspberry Pi Pico board and these LEDs. > > I would use one core for SIMH (the PDP-8 simulator) and one core for > the Incandescent Emulation. > > Right now I'm too busy finding parts for my real PDP-8/E and getting > it running. > > Think of the addressable LEDs and LEDs with the shift register built > in ?. > > When you are ready for a redesign, you might consider it for a cost > reduction. > > If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How do > I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the > board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers > on the edge connectors? > > Thanks and good luck, > > ????????????????? Mike > > On 12/6/2021 2:07 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/6/21 10:36 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> Each LED requires 24 bits of data.? That would be 3,456 bits.? The >>> WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit. That >>> would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs. >> >> If I'd known about those when I designed my boards, I might well have >> gone that way.? They're surprisingly inexpensive even. >> >> Instead, I ended up using a 16-LED driver chip that basically looks like >> a shift-register.? I clock in the 144 bits (just on-off, no fancy >> tri-color LEDs I'm afraid), toggle the latch signal, and there it is. >> If you want to support more indicator panels, it's just a longer shift >> register.? I then added RS422 driver chips for noise immunity and there >> I was. >> >> Dave >> >> > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Dec 7 05:45:25 2021 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 06:45:25 -0500 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4dd24a79-931d-efeb-443f-a2420f360d9f@froghouse.org> <14aef046-f6ad-aa58-718c-27cc3427bd9d@12bitsbest.com> <0304f881-443d-597c-22b6-3f34ffefdda0@froghouse.org> <99320eb5-6c1b-8f17-d904-9bd3eb8dffaf@12bitsbest.com> <506bd805-8e06-ad52-bce6-cac05e971c2c@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: Board cost depends on quantity, the more you have made, the lower the per board cost. PCBCart.com charges a "tooling" charge for a new design.? They do look over the designs carefully and reorders don't incur that charge. To get an idea, I had a run of Joerg Hoppe's DEC Flip-Chip Extender Hex +5 boards made (http://retrocmp.com/tools/dec-flip-chip-extenders) I had 20 made.? My total (board cost, share of tooling, share of shipping and share of customs at that time) per board cost is $42.60 (I'm selling them for $42 as I didn't get the customs charge until later). On 12/6/2021 7:21 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I haven't priced anything out yet.? My current project will have > reasonably large sized board but will be using DIN 41612 style > connectors (so I don't need edge fingers).? I haven't gone to > different board vendors yet to see what pricing will be yet (still > settling on board size and number of layers...right now it looks like > it'll be 4 layers). > > On 12/6/21 3:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and >> how expensive for omnibus size boards? >> >> On 12/6/2021 5:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> If I may8 ask a question.? I have never had boards made before. How >>>> do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I >>>> specify the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should >>>> have gold fingers on the edge connectors? >>>> >>> Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* >>> going to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which >>> IMHO is the only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards >>> and sockets). >>> >>> I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold >>> fingers (they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).? When you >>> submit your Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers >>> and how you want them plated.? I have been 100% satisfied with the >>> boards that I've received from them. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>> >> From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 7 10:11:28 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 10:11:28 -0600 Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? In-Reply-To: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211205191222.57DE018C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5c44ff6d-5613-ae6f-b3b6-8186aeb369b6@charter.net> I would be interested in an inlay - I have an RK11-C, but no indicator panel. Also, if someone (else, presumably) does up a replica of the indicator panel board (perhaps with the option to use LEDs, with some resistor packs that could be bypassed for lamps), I'd be interested in that, too. As a BTW, when I got my PDP-11/20 from the U Wisc. ECE dept. they had a home grown 11.5" high indicator panel that watched the bus signals and displayed the registers and PSW in LED's. I disconnected it, but I think I left the connector in place on the 11/20 for it. JRJ On 12/5/2021 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Let me get this out before the list gets shut down _again_... > > > There is discussion of doing a run of indicator panel inlays: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > for the RK11-C (which is wired for an indicator panel, although as far as > I know, DEC never did the inlay). > > If you're interested... you will need a standard DEC indicator panel light > panel (with flat cables with plug-in-cards on the ends). (I don't have any > insight on how to get one of those. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to make > replicas, but I'll leave that topic for the moment.) > > All I am proposing to do is create the silk-screened inlay that turns a DEC > indicator panel into an RK11-C indicator panel (starting with a functional > indicator penel without the inlay). > > > All DEC indicator panels use the same actual light panel and flat > cables/plug-in-cards (which have one conductor per light in the light panel); > which light comes on is set by the way the backplane slots the > cables/plug-in-cards plug into are wired. > > So from the prints, which give the wiring to the indicator panel slots, I > managed to work out what an RK11-C panel would look like, roughly (captions > are made up, but the light locations are accurate): > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt > > Starting with that, Dave Bridgham managed to whip up a rough approcimation of > what the inlay would look like: > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-c.pdf > > We had put a certain amount of work into identifying a font which looks like > the one DEC used, back when; I worked with a member the UK to produce a bunch > of blank inlays (right size/shape, with the black paint on the back with the > holes for the lights). Dave then found someone who could print the white > lettering on the front, and this is what the result looked like, on an > 'RK11-F' (the QSIC with RK emulation microcode) panel: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/RK11F-F.jpg > > You can compare with an original DEC inlay (TC08, IIRC) here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/DasBlinken2F.jpg > > That's on the same light panel, just the inlay is changed. (The lights in the > lower one are from the light panel Dave produced for use with the QSIC; it's > totally incompatible, electrically, with the DEC originals; 4 wires, IIRC, run > the whole thing (data, clock, latch and a ground), as opposed to the 'wire per > light' of the DEC originals. Looks _just_ like the originals (which Tech Sq > used to have a lot of, BITD), though. > > > Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all > wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it. > > Noel > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Dec 7 16:38:51 2021 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 23:38:51 +0100 Subject: TU58 / DECtape II: Capstan goo Message-ID: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> Hi! Some time ago, I got my hands on a DECtape II, though no tapes. That'll change after a long time and in a few days, even multiple tapes will come in. With that drive, I started some first tests. It's PSU seems to be all fine, providing stable 5 and 12 V. It's board's wire wrapping is in factory settings, so baud rate etc. is all known. However, when I checked the two drives capstans, they're old. One has a crack, and as things go, they feel partially either hard or gooey. Are there recommendations to exchange these for new ones? I also noticed that one of the two motors rotates quite freely (both unconnected from the board, so I'm sure they're not magnetically braked) while the other ... can be turned without any unreasonable torque, but it won't continue to spin at all. Also, when the tapes arrive, are there recommendations in case their drive belts are gone? And a final question: There are three firmware versions archived for the TU58 control board. It's a known version: jbglaw at charon:~/customers/Glaw/VAX/DECtape II$ md5sum *.bin | sort 0e5f30a960e72c9d64174a4da8f48f50 23-294E2-00.bin 5e059396f779aef9cd80bc75a36c90b2 23-089E2-00.bin 5e059396f779aef9cd80bc75a36c90b2 jbglaw-DECtapeII-ROM.bin a407fbb5aaa4823a92dd2bc374d1d3ae 23-389E2-00.bin I guess I got the oldest version? Were there board changes, or could I put in a compatible 2Kx8 ROM with any of these versions? I guess any firmware will probably work "good enough", but if I'd avoid known problems (are the differences known?), I'd rather avoid them. But after all, I'm quite happy that all the bits'n'pieces will come together in a few days. Yay! MfG, JBG -- From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 7 21:48:42 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 21:48:42 -0600 Subject: TU58 / DECtape II: Capstan goo In-Reply-To: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> References: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <4f7561e1-cbe1-5bc1-27f5-ff2675be67ad@charter.net> On 12/7/2021 4:38 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > Hi! > > Some time ago, I got my hands on a DECtape II, though no tapes. > That'll change after a long time and in a few days, even multiple > tapes will come in. > > With that drive, I started some first tests. It's PSU seems to be > all fine, providing stable 5 and 12 V. > > It's board's wire wrapping is in factory settings, so baud rate etc. > is all known. > > However, when I checked the two drives capstans, they're old. One > has a crack, and as things go, they feel partially either hard or > gooey. Are there recommendations to exchange these for new ones? I > also noticed that one of the two motors rotates quite freely > (both unconnected from the board, so I'm sure they're not magnetically > braked) while the other ... can be turned without any unreasonable > torque, but it won't continue to spin at all. > I made some up using some two layer rubber hose from Home Depot, sanded/ground down to the proper diameter. > Also, when the tapes arrive, are there recommendations in case their > drive belts are gone? > > And a final question: There are three firmware versions archived for > the TU58 control board. It's a known version: > > jbglaw at charon:~/customers/Glaw/VAX/DECtape II$ md5sum *.bin | sort > 0e5f30a960e72c9d64174a4da8f48f50 23-294E2-00.bin > 5e059396f779aef9cd80bc75a36c90b2 23-089E2-00.bin > 5e059396f779aef9cd80bc75a36c90b2 jbglaw-DECtapeII-ROM.bin > a407fbb5aaa4823a92dd2bc374d1d3ae 23-389E2-00.bin > Interesting. I have no idea which ones I have. Maybe earlier versions came out for the PDP-11 before the VAXen? > I guess I got the oldest version? Were there board changes, or could I > put in a compatible 2Kx8 ROM with any of these versions? I guess any > firmware will probably work "good enough", but if I'd avoid known > problems (are the differences known?), I'd rather avoid them. > > But after all, I'm quite happy that all the bits'n'pieces will come > together in a few days. Yay! > > MfG, JBG > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 16:16:19 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 17:16:19 -0500 Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet In-Reply-To: <61EA265E-B54D-45BF-AEDE-EF84369FB321@icloud.com> References: <61EA265E-B54D-45BF-AEDE-EF84369FB321@icloud.com> Message-ID: I have seen both upper and lower...if you fish through you can find what you need here: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/ https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40_full-height/ https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40_industrial11/ Bill On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 2:03 PM Gregory Beat via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Power Supplies, due to their Weight, are placed at the bottom of Racks > (prevent tip overs / weight distribution). > https://avitech.com.au/?page_id=366 > > The PDP-11/70 Maintenance and Installation Manual (EK-11070-MM-002) > explains that the basic PDP-11/70 system components are located in a double > cabinet as shown in Figure 1-1 of that manual. > > https://i0.wp.com/avitech.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/major-assemblies-fig-1-1.jpg > > greg > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 19:28:01 -0800 > > From: Marc Howard > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet > > From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Dec 8 01:43:23 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 08:43:23 +0100 Subject: TU58 / DECtape II: Capstan goo In-Reply-To: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> References: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <9a6a2a6b-cee6-c950-2b03-5f4dd6b6224b@greenmail.ch> > > Also, when the tapes arrive, are there recommendations in case their > drive belts are gone? You can 3D-print replacements. Use Innoflex filament, 100% fill-in and the following OpenScad formula : module ring(d1,d2,w) { difference() { cylinder( w, d1/2, d1/2, $fn=230); cylinder( w, d2/2, d2/2, $fn=230); } } ring(38.2,35,6); // TU60 Dectape-II Already 2 TU60 have been repaired with the above. Jos From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 01:59:53 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 07:59:53 +0000 Subject: TU58 / DECtape II: Capstan goo In-Reply-To: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> References: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:38 PM Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > However, when I checked the two drives capstans, they're old. One > has a crack, and as things go, they feel partially either hard or > gooey. Are there recommendations to exchange these for new ones? I turned a replacement hub from aluminium rod and used an O-ring as the tyre. It only has to engage with the drive roller in the cartridge, it doesn't contact the tape of course. > I > also noticed that one of the two motors rotates quite freely > (both unconnected from the board, so I'm sure they're not magnetically > braked) while the other ... can be turned without any unreasonable > torque, but it won't continue to spin at all. Hmm... Try a drop of light oil on the bearings first. I'd then try running the motor off a bench supply and measuring the current it draws. If the 2 motors run properly like that and draw much the same current then there are no problems. -tony From tingox at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 03:56:39 2021 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:56:39 +0100 Subject: TU58 / DECtape II: Capstan goo In-Reply-To: <9a6a2a6b-cee6-c950-2b03-5f4dd6b6224b@greenmail.ch> References: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> <9a6a2a6b-cee6-c950-2b03-5f4dd6b6224b@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 8:43 AM Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Also, when the tapes arrive, are there recommendations in case their > > drive belts are gone? > > You can 3D-print replacements. > Use Innoflex filament, 100% fill-in and the following OpenScad formula : > which Innoflex filament? There are several different hardness variants. > module ring(d1,d2,w) > { > difference() > { cylinder( w, d1/2, d1/2, $fn=230); > cylinder( w, d2/2, d2/2, $fn=230); > } > } > ring(38.2,35,6); // TU60 Dectape-II > > Already 2 TU60 have been repaired with the above. Useful. Thanks! -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Dec 8 04:08:20 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:08:20 +0100 Subject: TU58 / DECtape II: Capstan goo In-Reply-To: References: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> <9a6a2a6b-cee6-c950-2b03-5f4dd6b6224b@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: >> > which Innoflex filament? There are several different hardness variants. > I used Ninjaflex 3DNF0517505, but that is because it is the only TPU type filament I have at hand. I would rather use a somewhat harder variant. Jos From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 05:32:02 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 06:32:02 -0500 Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0de801d7ec27$38d0d9d0$aa728d70$@gmail.com> Marc: Do you have the 11/40-specific wiring harness? Assuming that you do it's a bit tricky -- not so much mounting a given supply (aside from the fact that they are heavy and awkward to work with even when minimally populated), but because there is a very tight tolerance between them to thread the wiring harness. I've determined the hard way that you really need to install the lower one first, then the harness, then the upper one. At least for me it wasn't practical/possible to install the harness after-the-fact. There's also a bit of work involved in threading both of the AC power cables plus the pair of power-control cables (assuming that you're using a DEC power controller) via the right-side vertical rack channel -- which also interact with the power harness placement. Once everything is cabled-in-place the result is maximally compact, but getting there is not simple. Yes, the power cable wiring isn't well-described anywhere IMO. You have to stare at the puzzle-pieces for a while and "dry fit". Harness shape/stiffness helps eyeball how to fit the pieces together, but the importance of the rack vertical side-channel in making everything fit is not, IMO, made at all clear anywhere in the various documentation -- although it can be inferred from careful examination of a few graphics in various documents. The 11/40, the 11/45-50-55, and the 11/70 share the same design in this respect so documentation for one will serve you well in any of these cases. If you can tackle the task *before* installing the BA11 chassis you'll find it easier. If you're not using a standard DEC rack or don't have an equivalent vertical side-channel to work with then IMO you'll need to get very creative ... and the 11/40-specifics wiring harness may not work at all and you'll need to build your own. Fortunately I didn't need to explore that path ... Good luck! -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Marc Howard via cctech Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2021 10:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet Hi, I've got an 11/40 I'm going to start working on. Problem is that there are two power supplies (H742 and H7420) that came with it but neither was mounted in the rack. Could someone post/send/etc. photos of how the power supply mounts in the rack? Also how is the power cabling routed (I think I'm missing this part)? Thanks, Marc Howard From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 8 12:16:14 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 13:16:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Need picture of power supply mounted in 11/40 cabinet Message-ID: <20211208181614.CB40818C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Marc Howard > I've got an 11/40 I'm going to start working on. Problem is that there > are two power supplies (H742 and H7420) that came with it but neither > was mounted in the rack. -11/40's in general only have one of those large H742x suppplies in a rack. The documentation and prints all show only a single one - in fact, the 11/40 power harness (which is specific to the KD11-A backplane, at the CPU end) can only attach to one. The KB11 machines (-11/45 and /70) use two, but their harness has provision for two. I don't know of a DEC document that lists the difference between the H742 and H7420, but my CHWiki page for them: https://gunkies.org/wiki/H742_Power_Supply gives what I think is a pretty good list; any errors or missing details would be appreciated. > Also how is the power cabling routed (I think I'm missing this part)? That's going to be a hassle, replacing the main harness! Especially since production of the 8-pin MATE-N-LOK connector shells used to interface to the H744/etc 'bricks' - part numbers here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_standard_modular_regulators are out of production, although some vendors have residual stocks. Hoard them while they last! The "PDP-11/40, -11/35 (21 inch chassis) system manual" (EK-11040-TM-002): http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/1140_SystemManual.pdf has pretty good coverage of the harness; the back end of Chapter 6 covers it in detail. That's a lot easier to understand than the FMPS: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/PDP-1140_System_Engr_Drawings_Rev_P_Jun74.pdf so read that before you tackle the prints. Note that there are two different kinds of harness, depending on whether the machine has MM11-L (-15V) or MM11-U (+20V) core memory. Unless you're planning on using one of those, you can probably ignore that, though. Any questions, ask here right off; we have a lot of expertise! :-) ('My' first -11 - as in, one I was in charge of - was a -11/40. Fond mempries!) Noel From shumaker at att.net Wed Dec 8 10:43:45 2021 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 08:43:45 -0800 Subject: 370 control panel References: <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115.ref@att.net> Message-ID: <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115@att.net> up for auction (and NOT on EPAY!): what appears to be an intact? System 370 control panel in PA https://hibid.com/lot/107052050/ibm-370-145-mainframe-computer/?q=&status=open&apage=6&ipp=100&ref=lot-list steve From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 12:20:29 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 18:20:29 -0000 Subject: 370 control panel In-Reply-To: <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115@att.net> References: <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115.ref@att.net> <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115@att.net> Message-ID: <037c01d7ec60$4806a6d0$d813f470$@gmail.com> Is "not on EPAY" a good thing. I see there is a 10% buyers premium plus 4% for credit card.... .. and " ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD AS IS WHERE IS AND HOW IS WITH NO WARRANTIES OF ANY TYPE EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED CONCERNING" Give me EPAY any day.... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of s shumaker via > cctech > Sent: 08 December 2021 16:44 > To: On Topic Discussion > Subject: 370 control panel > > up for auction (and NOT on EPAY!): what appears to be an intact System > 370 control panel in PA > > https://hibid.com/lot/107052050/ibm-370-145-mainframe- > computer/?q=&status=open&apage=6&ipp=100&ref=lot-list > > steve From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 12:26:07 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 13:26:07 -0500 Subject: 370 control panel In-Reply-To: <037c01d7ec60$4806a6d0$d813f470$@gmail.com> References: <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115.ref@att.net> <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115@att.net> <037c01d7ec60$4806a6d0$d813f470$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4550C159-11DE-4DB2-8BF9-22F3861EF1D8@comcast.net> > On Dec 8, 2021, at 1:20 PM, David Wade via cctech wrote: > > Is "not on EPAY" a good thing. I see there is a 10% buyers premium plus 4% for credit card.... > .. and " ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD AS IS WHERE IS AND HOW IS WITH NO WARRANTIES OF ANY TYPE EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED CONCERNING" Those are standard auction terms. > Give me EPAY any day.... It may not explicitly show a buyer's premium or CC surcharge, but you pay for those things anyway, via increased prices charged by the seller. And you don't get a warranty; the most you may get is protection against non-delivery of the promised item, which in fact you get with any credit card purchase. paul From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 12:50:57 2021 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 12:50:57 -0600 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have this terminal in my garage - sitting on its custom stand. I purchased it years ago, but don't have a use for it. Here is my photo of it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SV4-Xx7XLHIoA898ZPRC74wZv2e8YsVK/view?usp=sharing I'm near Houston Texas. It is too big and heavy to ship. Monty McGraw From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 8 13:01:20 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 13:01:20 -0600 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> Wow 6 bit baudot paper tape I think.? That's an oldie? On 12/8/2021 12:50 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > I have this terminal in my garage - sitting on its custom stand. > > I purchased it years ago, but don't have a use for it. > > Here is my photo of it: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SV4-Xx7XLHIoA898ZPRC74wZv2e8YsVK/view?usp=sharing > > I'm near Houston Texas. > > It is too big and heavy to ship. > > Monty McGraw From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 13:16:08 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 14:16:08 -0500 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting codes. That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same model. The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. And also that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather than as non-printing fill. paul > On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Wow 6 bit baudot paper tape I think. That's an oldie? > > > On 12/8/2021 12:50 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: >> I have this terminal in my garage - sitting on its custom stand. >> >> I purchased it years ago, but don't have a use for it. >> >> Here is my photo of it: >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SV4-Xx7XLHIoA898ZPRC74wZv2e8YsVK/view?usp=sharing >> >> I'm near Houston Texas. >> >> It is too big and heavy to ship. >> >> Monty McGraw > From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 13:16:25 2021 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 13:16:25 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric, I would qualify that statement and say - I'm the Tek computer Monty :) I have a Tektronix 4052 and 4054A, plus two Tektronix 4041 (68000 based GPIB controller) computers :) Both the 4052 and 4054A also have Tektronix 401x terminal emulation at up to 9600 baud, so I don't have a use for the Siemens terminal. Monty On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:58 PM Eric Moore wrote: > Holy shit Monty, you are the tek terminal Monty. > > I just posted on facebook in the tek 4051 basic group, do you know anyone > with a tek 41XX or 42XX terminal? > > -Eric > > > On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 12:51 PM Monty McGraw via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I have this terminal in my garage - sitting on its custom stand. >> >> I purchased it years ago, but don't have a use for it. >> >> Here is my photo of it: >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SV4-Xx7XLHIoA898ZPRC74wZv2e8YsVK/view?usp=sharing >> >> I'm near Houston Texas. >> >> It is too big and heavy to ship. >> >> Monty McGraw >> > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 8 13:23:25 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 13:23:25 -0600 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting codes. > > That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same model. > > The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. And also that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather than as non-printing fill. > > paul > >> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> >> Wow 6 bit baudot paper tape I think. That's an oldie? >> >> >> On 12/8/2021 12:50 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: >>> I have this terminal in my garage - sitting on its custom stand. >>> >>> I purchased it years ago, but don't have a use for it. >>> >>> Here is my photo of it: >>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SV4-Xx7XLHIoA898ZPRC74wZv2e8YsVK/view?usp=sharing >>> >>> I'm near Houston Texas. >>> >>> It is too big and heavy to ship. >>> >>> Monty McGraw From shumaker at att.net Wed Dec 8 12:35:21 2021 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:35:21 -0800 Subject: 370 control panel In-Reply-To: <037c01d7ec60$4806a6d0$d813f470$@gmail.com> References: <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115.ref@att.net> <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115@att.net> <037c01d7ec60$4806a6d0$d813f470$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <36ee4568-deb1-c3b1-8424-acc2e71fd8e7@att.net> Depends on perspective I guess.. some folks swear at it; some swear by it. ? There tends to be fewer watchers and the fees aren't hidden but in the end, it's still an auction and you have to play by their rule to bid. Steve ?On 12/8/2021 10:20 AM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote: > Is "not on EPAY" a good thing. I see there is a 10% buyers premium plus 4% for credit card.... > .. and " ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD AS IS WHERE IS AND HOW IS WITH NO WARRANTIES OF ANY TYPE EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED CONCERNING" > > Give me EPAY any day.... > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech On Behalf Of s shumaker via >> cctech >> Sent: 08 December 2021 16:44 >> To: On Topic Discussion >> Subject: 370 control panel >> >> up for auction (and NOT on EPAY!): what appears to be an intact System >> 370 control panel in PA >> >> https://hibid.com/lot/107052050/ibm-370-145-mainframe- >> computer/?q=&status=open&apage=6&ipp=100&ref=lot-list >> >> steve From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 13:52:37 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 14:52:37 -0500 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> No, it's 5 bit tape. 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on the punch (left side). DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember those appearing on punched tape. The punched tape machines I have seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era phototypesetters. Those are upper/lower case. paul > On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: > > I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. > > On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting codes. >> >> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same model. >> >> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. And also that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather than as non-printing fill. >> >> paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 8 14:27:53 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 13:27:53 -0700 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26053657-0c30-65cb-5a1e-b867bfd3a032@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-12-08 11:50 a.m., Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > I have this terminal in my garage - sitting on its custom stand. > > I purchased it years ago, but don't have a use for it. > > Here is my photo of it: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SV4-Xx7XLHIoA898ZPRC74wZv2e8YsVK/view?usp=sharing > > I'm near Houston Texas. > > It is too big and heavy to ship. > > Monty McGraw > It is not too heavy to ship, just to heavy to move out of the basement. :) What we need is a some guy able to drive around, and pack and ship all the un-ship able products. Ben. From dce at skynet.be Wed Dec 8 14:29:29 2021 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 21:29:29 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which only works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required to send text in this monster through a computer Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 Dominique On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > No, it's 5 bit tape. 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on the punch (left side). > > DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember those appearing on punched tape. The punched tape machines I have seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era phototypesetters. Those are upper/lower case. > > paul > >> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >> >> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >> >> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting codes. >>> >>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same model. >>> >>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. And also that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather than as non-printing fill. >>> >>> paul From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 8 14:57:29 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 14:57:29 -0600 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1086d81b-5166-321b-4108-ae1d8b79f158@12bitsbest.com> You are correct, I counted wrong.? Can I chalk it up to old date and bad eyes?? On 12/8/2021 1:52 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > No, it's 5 bit tape. 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on the punch (left side). > > DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember those appearing on punched tape. The punched tape machines I have seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era phototypesetters. Those are upper/lower case. > > paul > >> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >> >> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >> >> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting codes. >>> >>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same model. >>> >>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. And also that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather than as non-printing fill. >>> >>> paul From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 8 15:00:57 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 15:00:57 -0600 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <1086d81b-5166-321b-4108-ae1d8b79f158@12bitsbest.com> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <1086d81b-5166-321b-4108-ae1d8b79f158@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <5e228a55-73db-cc30-0a32-0b035ba87281@12bitsbest.com> correction old age, arthritic fingers and old age? On 12/8/2021 2:57 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > You are correct, I counted wrong.? Can I chalk it up to old date and > bad eyes?? > > On 12/8/2021 1:52 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> No, it's 5 bit tape.? 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data >> bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on >> the punch (left side). >> >> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember >> those appearing on punched tape.? The punched tape machines I have >> seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape >> operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era >> phototypesetters.? Those are upper/lower case. >> >> ????paul >> >>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>> >>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape >>> is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes >>> except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper >>> tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>> >>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting >>>> codes. >>>> >>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch >>>> Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, >>>> the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other >>>> function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same >>>> model. >>>> >>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, >>>> a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed.? And also >>>> that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather >>>> than as non-printing fill. >>>> >>>> ????paul > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 8 15:58:13 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 21:58:13 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> Message-ID: <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger > > via cctalk > > Sent: 05 December 2021 14:51 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > > > On 12/5/2021 3:37 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the tips. The transformer that drives the bricks is a real beast. > > Did you find an alternative more convenient way to power them on the > > bench? > > > > > > > From the schematics, some of them seem to want 20-30 VAC (some, like > > at least one of the -15v regulators, take DC inputs from other > > regulators) > > > > For lower current initial testing I have some 24v 2A transformers > > lying around. For higher current, I might use something like this guy: > > > > https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/triad-magnetics/F- > > 401U/5032226 > > I have a variac rated at 2.5A. I am not quite sure whether that would be > sufficient to test the bricks individually. Otherwise, I guess one of these > would do the trick https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer- > 250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer ? So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, would this do the trick? https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer Thanks Rob > > > > > JRJ From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 8 16:22:38 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 16:22:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> > On 12/08/2021 3:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, would this do the trick? https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer > > Thanks > > Rob > > > > > > > > JRJ As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort of). Will "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." Richard Feynman From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 8 16:38:03 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:38:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: RK11-C indicator panel inlays? Message-ID: <20211208223803.B1E0D18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > Let me see what artwork I have I'm curious as to what you'd be able to find. Like I said, I'm pretty sure DEC never did an RK11-C inlay; the engineering drawings for the 19" indicator panel (included in the RF11 engineering drawings: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RF11_EngrDrws_Oct70.pdf on pp. 187-188) list many inlays, but not an RK11 one. Also, I've looked through the RK11-C manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RK11-C_manual1971.pdf but it contains no mention of an indicator panel, which it surely would if there was one. > From: Henk Gooijen > I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 'paddle' > connections boards. ... Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C > front, what would you do to light up the lamps? Uhhh... plug the paddle boards on the end of the flat cables from the indicator panel into the pre-wired slots in the RK11-C backplane (see the RK11-C engineering drawings: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RK11-C_schemFeb1971.pdf pg. 36)? :-) Hence my comment that to make use of the _inlay_ I proposed to produce, one had to have an RK11-C _and_ a spare DEC indicator panel... Noel From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 8 16:44:14 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 16:44:14 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> "As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort of)." Up to the current rating of the variac.? When you draw more current than the transformer can deliver then the voltage will sag. On 12/8/2021 4:22 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> On 12/08/2021 3:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, would this do the trick? https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer >> >> Thanks >> >> Rob >> >> >>>> JRJ > As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort of). > > Will > > "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." > Richard Feynman From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 8 16:57:58 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 16:57:58 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: More accurately up to it's rated wattage "Power = Voltage * Current" after all. If you have a 100W max variac you can draw 20A @ 5V (approx) but only 1A at 100V. On 12/8/2021 4:44 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > "As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full > rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A > at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort > of)." > > Up to the current rating of the variac.? When you draw more current > than the transformer can deliver then the voltage will sag. > > On 12/8/2021 4:22 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 12/08/2021 3:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A >>> be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at >>> 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, >>> would this do the trick? >>> https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>>>> JRJ >> As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full >> rated current at any output voltage.? So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 >> A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc.? With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, >> sort of). >> >> Will >> >> "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change >> that here and there." >> Richard Feynman > From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 17:06:31 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 18:06:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <0ed801d7ec88$3dabdde0$b90399a0$@gmail.com> Seems to me that the actual coil resistance will limit the max-current at lower voltages. 20 A through wire sized for 1 A seems ... unlikely? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Katz via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; wrcooke at wrcooke.net Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards More accurately up to it's rated wattage "Power = Voltage * Current" after all. If you have a 100W max variac you can draw 20A @ 5V (approx) but only 1A at 100V. On 12/8/2021 4:44 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > "As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full > rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A > at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort > of)." > > Up to the current rating of the variac. When you draw more current > than the transformer can deliver then the voltage will sag. > > On 12/8/2021 4:22 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 12/08/2021 3:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A >>> be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at >>> 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, >>> would this do the trick? >>> https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v- >>> 2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>>>> JRJ >> As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full >> rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 >> A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, >> sort of). >> >> Will >> >> "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change >> that here and there." >> Richard Feynman > From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 8 17:13:13 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:13:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <0ed801d7ec88$3dabdde0$b90399a0$@gmail.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> <0ed801d7ec88$3dabdde0$b90399a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2072194106.713236.1639005193779@email.ionos.com> Variable transformers (generic. Variac is a trademarked brand of them) are rated in amps output, not in watts or, more accurately, volt-amps. That is because they are rated to deliver that current at ANY voltage. The main limiting factor is flux density in the core. The flux density is proportional to the current. So, the rated current (e.g. 2.5 amps in the original question) can be drawn at ANY output voltage without overloading the core. At 1V out, you get 2.5 volt-amps. At 120V out you get 300 volt-amps. The current is the same, so the IR (resistive) losses of voltage are the same. If you draw more current than the rated current, then the core will be overloaded. It will most likely overheat and will possibly be permanently damaged. In addition, the IR losses will increase, causing more overheating. > On 12/08/2021 5:06 PM pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > > > Seems to me that the actual coil resistance will limit the max-current at lower voltages. 20 A through wire sized for 1 A seems ... unlikely? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Katz via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; wrcooke at wrcooke.net > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > More accurately up to it's rated wattage "Power = Voltage * Current" > after all. > > If you have a 100W max variac you can draw 20A @ 5V (approx) but only 1A at 100V. > > On 12/8/2021 4:44 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > "As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full > > rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A > > at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort > > of)." > > Up to the current rating of the variac. When you draw more current > > than the transformer can deliver then the voltage will sag. > > On 12/8/2021 4:22 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > >>> On 12/08/2021 3:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > >>> wrote: > >>> So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A > >>> be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at > >>> 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, > >>> would this do the trick? > >>> https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v- > >>> 2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> > >>> Rob > >>> > >>> > >>>>> JRJ > >> As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full > >> rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 > >> A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, > >> sort of). > >> > >> Will > >> > >> "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change > >> that here and there." > >> Richard Feynman > > "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." Richard Feynman From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 8 17:14:02 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 23:14:02 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <008401d7ec89$4aabd990$e0038cb0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Katz via > cctalk > Sent: 08 December 2021 22:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; wrcooke at wrcooke.net > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > More accurately up to it's rated wattage "Power = Voltage * Current" > after all. > > If you have a 100W max variac you can draw 20A @ 5V (approx) but only 1A at > 100V. The problem is that it isn't marked with a wattage, just a current, which left me wondering at what voltage. Although Will Cooke's response seems to be that the voltage doesn't matter, so at 240VAC it would be 600W. Can that be right? > > On 12/8/2021 4:44 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > "As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full > > rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A > > at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort > > of)." > > > > Up to the current rating of the variac. When you draw more current > > than the transformer can deliver then the voltage will sag. > > > > On 12/8/2021 4:22 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> On 12/08/2021 3:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > >>> wrote: > >>> So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A > >>> be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at > >>> 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, > >>> would this do the trick? > >>> https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v- > >>> 2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> > >>> Rob > >>> > >>> > >>>>> JRJ > >> As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full > >> rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 > >> A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, > >> sort of). > >> > >> Will > >> > >> "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change > >> that here and there." > >> Richard Feynman > > From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Wed Dec 8 17:14:07 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:14:07 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <0ed801d7ec88$3dabdde0$b90399a0$@gmail.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> <0ed801d7ec88$3dabdde0$b90399a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: That would depend on the type and size of wire (solid core, stranded, strands of stranded, etc.). On 12/8/2021 5:06 PM, pbirkel at gmail.com wrote: > Seems to me that the actual coil resistance will limit the max-current at lower voltages. 20 A through wire sized for 1 A seems ... unlikely? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mike Katz via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; wrcooke at wrcooke.net > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards > > More accurately up to it's rated wattage "Power = Voltage * Current" > after all. > > If you have a 100W max variac you can draw 20A @ 5V (approx) but only 1A at 100V. > > On 12/8/2021 4:44 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: >> "As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full >> rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 A >> at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, sort >> of)." >> >> Up to the current rating of the variac. When you draw more current >> than the transformer can deliver then the voltage will sag. >> >> On 12/8/2021 4:22 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >>>> On 12/08/2021 3:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A >>>> be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at >>>> 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, >>>> would this do the trick? >>>> https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v- >>>> 2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> >>>>>> JRJ >>> As a general rule, a variable transformer (Variac) can provide full >>> rated current at any output voltage. So a 2.5A unit can provide 2.5 >>> A at 1V, 10V, 120V, etc. With a 20V output, that is 50 VA (Watts, >>> sort of). >>> >>> Will >>> >>> "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change >>> that here and there." >>> Richard Feynman > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 17:21:25 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 15:21:25 -0800 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> References: <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> Message-ID: <4F255708-F1D4-4A86-AEC7-349EAC083ECE@gmail.com> Dominique, Nice to see your machine working so well! I like how it lights up from the inside. To connect it to a computer, you could simply get a Volpe board that does the Baudot 60 mA loop to ASCII RS 232 conversion for you, or build one yourself like I did. Info on both here: https://www.curiousmarc.com/mechanical/teletype-model-19#h.p_2ltO4LwPtuZR Matc > On Dec 8, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: > > ?The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which only works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required to send text in this monster through a computer > Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 > > Dominique > >> On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> No, it's 5 bit tape. 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on the punch (left side). >> >> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember those appearing on punched tape. The punched tape machines I have seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era phototypesetters. Those are upper/lower case. >> >> paul >> >>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>> >>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>> >>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting codes. >>>> >>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same model. >>>> >>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. And also that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather than as non-printing fill. >>>> >>>> paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Dec 8 17:59:24 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 18:59:24 -0500 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <4F255708-F1D4-4A86-AEC7-349EAC083ECE@gmail.com> References: <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <4F255708-F1D4-4A86-AEC7-349EAC083ECE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/21 6:21 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Dominique, > Nice to see your machine working so well! I like how it lights up from the inside. To connect it to a computer, you could simply get a Volpe board that does the Baudot 60 mA loop to ASCII RS 232 conversion for you, or build one yourself like I did. Info on both here: https://www.curiousmarc.com/mechanical/teletype-model-19#h.p_2ltO4LwPtuZR While I saw a number of them in Germany back in the 70's I was never lucky enough to have one. I did have a Lorenz LO-15 though and it was the first printer I had on my TRS-80. bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Dec 8 18:11:19 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 19:11:19 -0500 Subject: DEC AF01, open for offers Message-ID: <64d878a9-6a16-3d49-0907-cc4b8005c6b3@alembic.crystel.com> Would anyone like to make an offer on this AF01? It's a multi-channel A/D converter for old pdp8 and pdp12's. I really don't think I need it, I just pulled it out of my closet, and I don't want to put it back in. Copy me off list. Complete, multiple MUX channels (16 A121's) the A704 and the op amp (A200) From dce at skynet.be Wed Dec 8 18:25:08 2021 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 01:25:08 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <4F255708-F1D4-4A86-AEC7-349EAC083ECE@gmail.com> References: <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <4F255708-F1D4-4A86-AEC7-349EAC083ECE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Marc for these information.? I will go study this from your link ;) Dominique On 9/12/2021 00:21, Curious Marc wrote: > Dominique, > Nice to see your machine working so well! I like how it lights up from > the inside. To connect it to a computer, you could simply get a Volpe > board that does the Baudot 60 mA loop to ASCII RS 232 conversion for > you, or build one yourself like I did. Info on both here: > https://www.curiousmarc.com/mechanical/teletype-model-19#h.p_2ltO4LwPtuZR > Matc > >> On Dec 8, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> ?The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which >> only works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required to >> send text in this monster through a computer >> Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 >> >> Dominique >> >> On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> No, it's 5 bit tape. ?2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data >>> bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on >>> the punch (left side). >>> >>> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember >>> those appearing on punched tape. ?The punched tape machines I have >>> seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape >>> operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era >>> phototypesetters. ?Those are upper/lower case. >>> >>> ? ?paul >>> >>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>>> >>>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape >>>> is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes >>>> except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper >>>> tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>>> >>>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting >>>>> codes. >>>>> >>>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch >>>>> Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, >>>>> the figures shift character on the D key. ?But some of the other >>>>> function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same >>>>> model. >>>>> >>>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, >>>>> a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. ?And also >>>>> that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather >>>>> than as non-printing fill. >>>>> >>>>> ? ?paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 19:39:31 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 20:39:31 -0500 Subject: TU58 / DECtape II: Capstan goo In-Reply-To: <9a6a2a6b-cee6-c950-2b03-5f4dd6b6224b@greenmail.ch> References: <20211207223851.u6k5xdxxou63b4wn@lug-owl.de> <9a6a2a6b-cee6-c950-2b03-5f4dd6b6224b@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 2:43 AM Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > Also, when the tapes arrive, are there recommendations in case their > > drive belts are gone? > > You can 3D-print replacements. > Use Innoflex filament, 100% fill-in and the following OpenScad formula : > > module ring(d1,d2,w) > { > difference() > { cylinder( w, d1/2, d1/2, $fn=230); > cylinder( w, d2/2, d2/2, $fn=230); > } > } > ring(38.2,35,6); // TU60 Dectape-II Cool. Thanks for sharing that! > Already 2 TU60 have been repaired with the above. TU60 are direct-drive digital cassettes. https://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/tape/tu60-info.html The TU58 uses DC100 cartridges. http://www.hp9825.com/html/dc100_tape.html I had a boss who recycled some DEC TU58 for our HP 4951A serial analyzer. It can format cassettes, the TU58 cannot, so it's a one-way-trip. -ethan From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Dec 8 19:28:38 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 19:28:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <008401d7ec89$4aabd990$e0038cb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <532347356.710320.1639002158873@email.ionos.com> <36e7b664-383a-44c6-9953-c1404a63c275@12bitsbest.com> <008401d7ec89$4aabd990$e0038cb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1907254655.1201985.1639013318114@email.ionos.com> > On 12/08/2021 5:14 PM Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > The problem is that it isn't marked with a wattage, just a current, which left me wondering at what voltage. Although Will Cooke's response seems to be that the voltage doesn't matter, so at 240VAC it would be 600W. Can that be right? My previous response was a bit misleading and not completely accurate. Sorry. I was trying to rush out the door. Variacs are rated for max current. In the stated case, 2.5 amps. They can provide that current at any output voltage. So, the maximum wattage (actually volts-amps, which is a bit different) will be 2.5 amps * highest output voltage. (Some are possibly rated at for that current when the output voltage does not exceed the input. They can usually go higher than the input by 20% or so) They can provide that same current at any voltage UP TO that max output voltage. In theory, they could provide higher current at lower output voltages. The magnetic flux is proportional to current times turns (of wire on the core.) A lower output voltage implies fewer turns. BUT, the rest of the transformer is not designed for that higher current. So it is a bad idea to try to pull more than the rated current. However, pulling that rated current at any output voltage up to the input voltage is fine. You can get a pretty good idea how much power a variac (or any transformer) can handle by its weight and size. The 3 amp variable transformer I have on my bench weighs about 25 pounds. It is a 120V input so that is about 360 volt-amps. One that can handle 600 volt-amps will weight around twice as much (the relationship isn't linear, though.) Why do I keep saying volt-amps instead of Watts? Watts are actual power. Volt-amps are apparent power. If there are capacitors or inductors in the circuit the current and voltage will be out of phase. That phase change means the current and voltage won't peak at the same time and therefore the actual amount of power used will be less than it "appears" by multiplying volts * amps. But the core and winding of the tranformer will still have to handle the apparent power, even though the actual power used is less. The actual power used is the apparent power times the cosine of the angular difference in phase. I'm not familiar with the DEC power supplies, but it is almost certain they have capacitor input power supplies. That means a phase change. That means, then, that your input supply will need to provide more apparent power than actual power used. A rough approximation is to double the input from what the supply outputs, assuming reasonable efficient supplies. So if one of those DEC supplies provides, say, 5 volts at 10 amps, that is 50 watts output. I would start with a variac (or whatever) that can supply 100 volt-amps at the input voltage. So, for 20V input it would need 5 amps. Will From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 22:25:55 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 04:25:55 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 9:58 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have a variac rated at 2.5A. I am not quite sure whether that would be > > sufficient to test the bricks individually. Otherwise, I guess one of these > > would do the trick https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer- > > 250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer ? > > So, to supply the bricks on the bench, would a variac rated at 2.5A be OK? I am not sure I know how much current the bricks will draw at 20VAC, and at what voltage the 2.5A rating is given. Otherwise, would this do the trick? https://cpc.farnell.com/block/steu250-48/transformer-250va-230-400v-2-x/dp/TF01418?st=24v%20transformer Most Variacs do not provide isolation between the input and output, that is they are variable _autotransformers_. So if you use one to test a power brick, the latter is directly connected to the mains supply. Connecting an earthed 'scope to any point in said power brick will then blow fuses at least. Touching any point in the power brick could give you a nasty shock. The power bricks draw very little current with no load on the output and 2.5A would be fine to power one up. Most, if not all, of the power bricks start by rectifying and smoothing the AC input. As a result they will run off a DC input too. You can test them using a bench supply, normally do. One final thing. Do not, (as I did when younger and even more foolish) disable the over-current trip in a power brick. If the crowbar operates, you will end up with transistors blown off the PCB. -tony From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 9 00:48:55 2021 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 22:48:55 -0800 Subject: DEC AF01, open for offers In-Reply-To: <64d878a9-6a16-3d49-0907-cc4b8005c6b3@alembic.crystel.com> References: <64d878a9-6a16-3d49-0907-cc4b8005c6b3@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <373040c8-90b8-3dda-aa30-69cbd84f5950@sbcglobal.net> Do you have more info on it? I can't find much on-line. Is is a stand alone box or board set? I love A/D and D/A stuff so would be very interested. I have many PDP-8's, a PDP-12 and LINC-8. Any idea on how much you want for it? Thanks! Bob On 12/8/2021 4:11 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Would anyone like to make an offer on this AF01? It's a multi-channel > A/D converter for old pdp8 and pdp12's. I really don't think I need > it, I just pulled it out of my closet, and I don't want to put it back > in. > > Copy me off list. Complete, multiple MUX channels (16 A121's) the A704 > and the op amp (A200) -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From rdbrown0au at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 00:50:43 2021 From: rdbrown0au at gmail.com (Rodney Brown) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:50:43 +1100 Subject: NI PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer boards on ebay Message-ID: https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/m.html?_ssn=techparts2020&_nkw=%22PCI-GPIB%2B%22 NI National Instruments PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer PCI IEEE488.2 Interface Card (~USD140) Ebay item # 284088568161 Copyright 1998???? 183619B-01 284088565868 Copyright 2001???? 183619C-01 284088570014 Copyright 2005 ASSY192125D-01 While a photo shows the Windows NI Analyzer software in use, the item doesn't mention it. If NI will provide the analyzer software, these could be used to capture HP-IB traffic to characterize the attached devices, timings etc. The HPDrive project mentions the analyzer cards as being supported https://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/#hpdrive From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 9 01:02:16 2021 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 23:02:16 -0800 Subject: DEC AF01, open for offers In-Reply-To: <373040c8-90b8-3dda-aa30-69cbd84f5950@sbcglobal.net> References: <64d878a9-6a16-3d49-0907-cc4b8005c6b3@alembic.crystel.com> <373040c8-90b8-3dda-aa30-69cbd84f5950@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <70d9c53e-f16f-2c7a-f1ae-512b8683adfa@sbcglobal.net> Whoops, should have been off list... On 12/8/2021 10:48 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > Do you have more info on it? I can't find much on-line. Is is a stand > alone box or board set? > I love A/D and D/A stuff so would be very interested. I have many > PDP-8's, a PDP-12 and LINC-8. > Any idea on how much you want for it? > > > Thanks! > > Bob > > On 12/8/2021 4:11 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Would anyone like to make an offer on this AF01? It's a multi-channel >> A/D converter for old pdp8 and pdp12's. I really don't think I need >> it, I just pulled it out of my closet, and I don't want to put it >> back in. >> >> Copy me off list. Complete, multiple MUX channels (16 A121's) the >> A704 and the op amp (A200) > > -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Dec 8 14:30:49 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 12:30:49 -0800 Subject: 370 control panel In-Reply-To: <037c01d7ec60$4806a6d0$d813f470$@gmail.com> References: <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115.ref@att.net> <003964c8-d8f9-8207-33d0-86089f06e115@att.net> <037c01d7ec60$4806a6d0$d813f470$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <191D4C57-5308-4909-A8F3-02FF593794BA@avanthar.com> > On Dec 8, 2021, at 10:20 AM, David Wade via cctech wrote: > > Is "not on EPAY" a good thing. I see there is a 10% buyers premium plus 4% for credit card.... > .. and " ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD AS IS WHERE IS AND HOW IS WITH NO WARRANTIES OF ANY TYPE EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED CONCERNING" > > Give me EPAY any day.... > > Dave Personally I?d be more concerned with this? "SHIPPING IS ONLY WITH PRIOR ARRANGEMENT WITH AUCTION COMPANY ON SMALL ITEMS. PLEASE CALL 814-341-xxxx? (Note, I blanked out part of the phone number). With that, this might be a good deal for someone that can pick it up locally. Zane From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 9 02:28:13 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 09:28:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7020757-47ec-a765-88a8-3a718fa2d498@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021, Monty McGraw wrote: > I have this terminal in my garage - sitting on its custom stand. That's a plain standard current loop telex machine using CCITT2 code. The more modern electronic version of it is the T1000 (that was available as 5-bit CCITT2 and 8-bit ASCII). Christian From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Dec 9 04:00:03 2021 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:00:03 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> Message-ID: <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> Dominique, Well, that is in principle very easy. You need a COM port (or simulator) and a little box converting RS232 to 50 BPS serial.? Diagrams can be found everywhere. But you could also look at www.i-telex.net. This is a (primarily) german "band of brothers". They have set up an international of teleprinter users, so they can communicate through internet. Nice system, can recommend it. If you have (or get) a special interest in teleprinters, I have the software for a teleprinter exchange, also interfacing to i-telex.net In this way, you can have a complete telegraph office in your living room (more likely : a garage....) 73, Nico On 2021-12-08 21:29, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: > The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which only > works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required to send > text in this monster through a computer > Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 > > Dominique > > On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> No, it's 5 bit tape.? 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data >> bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on >> the punch (left side). >> >> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember >> those appearing on punched tape.? The punched tape machines I have >> seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape >> operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era >> phototypesetters.? Those are upper/lower case. >> >> ????paul >> >>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>> >>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape >>> is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes >>> except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper >>> tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>> >>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting >>>> codes. >>>> >>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch >>>> Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, >>>> the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other >>>> function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same >>>> model. >>>> >>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, >>>> a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed.? And also >>>> that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather >>>> than as non-printing fill. >>>> >>>> ????paul From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Dec 9 04:13:50 2021 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:13:50 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <4F255708-F1D4-4A86-AEC7-349EAC083ECE@gmail.com> References: <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <4F255708-F1D4-4A86-AEC7-349EAC083ECE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8bc54bf6-9d8f-f1db-6301-95f080435ef8@farumdata.dk> >Please note : all mecanial Siemens machines I've seen, use 40 mA. Not 60 mA. /Nico On 2021-12-09 00:21, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Dominique, > Nice to see your machine working so well! I like how it lights up from the inside. To connect it to a computer, you could simply get a Volpe board that does the Baudot 60 mA loop to ASCII RS 232 conversion for you, or build one yourself like I did. Info on both here: https://www.curiousmarc.com/mechanical/teletype-model-19#h.p_2ltO4LwPtuZR > Matc > >> On Dec 8, 2021, at 12:29 PM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which only works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required to send text in this monster through a computer >> Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 >> >> Dominique >> >>> On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> No, it's 5 bit tape. 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on the punch (left side). >>> >>> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember those appearing on punched tape. The punched tape machines I have seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era phototypesetters. Those are upper/lower case. >>> >>> paul >>> >>>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>>> >>>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting codes. >>>>> >>>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same model. >>>>> >>>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed. And also that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather than as non-printing fill. >>>>> >>>>> paul From dce at skynet.be Thu Dec 9 04:14:58 2021 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:14:58 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <574cd224-42bc-dbcf-7c1c-d0b73496629d@skynet.be> Oh great ! But a little bit noisy to use like that ;) Well, I'm interested by your software anyway ! Dominique On 9/12/2021 11:00, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > Dominique, > Well, that is in principle very easy. > You need a COM port (or simulator) and a little box converting RS232 > to 50 BPS serial.? Diagrams can be found everywhere. But you could > also look at www.i-telex.net. This is a (primarily) german "band of > brothers". They have set up an international of teleprinter users, so > they can communicate through internet. Nice system, can recommend it. > If you have (or get) a special interest in teleprinters, I have the > software for a teleprinter exchange, also interfacing to i-telex.net > In this way, you can have a complete telegraph office in your living > room (more likely : a garage....) > 73, Nico > > On 2021-12-08 21:29, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >> The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which only >> works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required to send >> text in this monster through a computer >> Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 >> >> Dominique >> >> On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> No, it's 5 bit tape.? 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data >>> bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on >>> the punch (left side). >>> >>> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't remember >>> those appearing on punched tape.? The punched tape machines I have >>> seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from early tape >>> operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or 1970s era >>> phototypesetters.? Those are upper/lower case. >>> >>> ????paul >>> >>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>>> >>>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape >>>> is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes >>>> except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper >>>> tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>>> >>>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting >>>>> codes. >>>>> >>>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on Dutch >>>>> Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" symbol, >>>>> the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the other >>>>> function codes have different labels so it isn't actually the same >>>>> model. >>>>> >>>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, >>>>> a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed.? And also >>>>> that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather >>>>> than as non-printing fill. >>>>> >>>>> ????paul > > From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Dec 9 04:21:10 2021 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:21:10 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <574cd224-42bc-dbcf-7c1c-d0b73496629d@skynet.be> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> <574cd224-42bc-dbcf-7c1c-d0b73496629d@skynet.be> Message-ID: Hello Dominique If you send me your e-mail address, I can start with sending you the user manual, so you can what the software does This software has an interface to i-telex.net, so you can use it for international chats It also has a lot of other functions, but it would take too long to list it all here Regards Nico (OZ1BMC), formerly PTT telegraph operator On 2021-12-09 11:14, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: > Oh great ! But a little bit noisy to use like that ;) > Well, I'm interested by your software anyway ! > > Dominique > > On 9/12/2021 11:00, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: >> Dominique, >> Well, that is in principle very easy. >> You need a COM port (or simulator) and a little box converting RS232 >> to 50 BPS serial.? Diagrams can be found everywhere. But you could >> also look at www.i-telex.net. This is a (primarily) german "band of >> brothers". They have set up an international of teleprinter users, so >> they can communicate through internet. Nice system, can recommend it. >> If you have (or get) a special interest in teleprinters, I have the >> software for a teleprinter exchange, also interfacing to i-telex.net >> In this way, you can have a complete telegraph office in your living >> room (more likely : a garage....) >> 73, Nico >> >> On 2021-12-08 21:29, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >>> The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which >>> only works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required to >>> send text in this monster through a computer >>> Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 >>> >>> Dominique >>> >>> On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> No, it's 5 bit tape.? 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 data >>>> bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to right on >>>> the punch (left side). >>>> >>>> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't >>>> remember those appearing on punched tape.? The punched tape >>>> machines I have seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from >>>> early tape operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or >>>> 1970s era phototypesetters.? Those are upper/lower case. >>>> >>>> ????paul >>>> >>>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper tape >>>>> is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character codes >>>>> except for DECs upper case only character set and even their paper >>>>> tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>>>> >>>>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be typesetting >>>>>> codes. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on >>>>>> Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" >>>>>> symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of the >>>>>> other function codes have different labels so it isn't actually >>>>>> the same model. >>>>>> >>>>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, >>>>>> a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed.? And also >>>>>> that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather >>>>>> than as non-printing fill. >>>>>> >>>>>> ????paul >> >> From dce at skynet.be Thu Dec 9 04:26:24 2021 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:26:24 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> <574cd224-42bc-dbcf-7c1c-d0b73496629d@skynet.be> Message-ID: dce at skynet.be Thanks ! Dominique On 9/12/2021 11:21, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > Hello Dominique > If you send me your e-mail address, I can start with sending you the > user manual, so you can what the software does > This software has an interface to i-telex.net, so you can use it for > international chats > It also has a lot of other functions, but it would take too long to > list it all here > Regards > Nico (OZ1BMC), formerly PTT telegraph operator > > On 2021-12-09 11:14, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >> Oh great ! But a little bit noisy to use like that ;) >> Well, I'm interested by your software anyway ! >> >> Dominique >> >> On 9/12/2021 11:00, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: >>> Dominique, >>> Well, that is in principle very easy. >>> You need a COM port (or simulator) and a little box converting RS232 >>> to 50 BPS serial.? Diagrams can be found everywhere. But you could >>> also look at www.i-telex.net. This is a (primarily) german "band of >>> brothers". They have set up an international of teleprinter users, >>> so they can communicate through internet. Nice system, can recommend >>> it. >>> If you have (or get) a special interest in teleprinters, I have the >>> software for a teleprinter exchange, also interfacing to i-telex.net >>> In this way, you can have a complete telegraph office in your living >>> room (more likely : a garage....) >>> 73, Nico >>> >>> On 2021-12-08 21:29, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: >>>> The subject interests me because I have the same beast but which >>>> only works in local mode. I currently don't know what is required >>>> to send text in this monster through a computer >>>> Below is a link to a video of my machine in action: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-XU855C80 >>>> >>>> Dominique >>>> >>>> On 8/12/2021 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>>> No, it's 5 bit tape.? 2 data bits, transport sprocket holes, 3 >>>>> data bits -- top to bottom on the reader (right side), left to >>>>> right on the punch (left side). >>>>> >>>>> DEC PDP-10 systems used six bit code internally but I don't >>>>> remember those appearing on punched tape.? The punched tape >>>>> machines I have seen with 6 channels are typesetting devices, from >>>>> early tape operated Linotype machines (1940s vintage) to 1960s or >>>>> 1970s era phototypesetters.? Those are upper/lower case. >>>>> >>>>> ????paul >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Mike Katz wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I thought I had recalled that Baudot was 5 bits but the paper >>>>>> tape is 6 bits across and I don't know of any 6 bit character >>>>>> codes except for DECs upper case only character set and even >>>>>> their paper tape had 8 bits so I guessed Baudot. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/8/2021 1:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>> 5 bit; if it really were 6 bits it would typically be >>>>>>> typesetting codes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a relative of the machine used as console terminal on >>>>>>> Dutch Electrologica X8 computers; I recognize the "Iron cross" >>>>>>> symbol, the figures shift character on the D key. But some of >>>>>>> the other function codes have different labels so it isn't >>>>>>> actually the same model. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The description I have says that the X8 console used CCITT-2, >>>>>>> a.k.a., Baudot, code but with the bit order reversed.? And also >>>>>>> that it used the all-zeroes code as a printable character rather >>>>>>> than as non-printing fill. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ????paul >>> >>> > From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Dec 9 04:35:25 2021 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:35:25 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> <574cd224-42bc-dbcf-7c1c-d0b73496629d@skynet.be> Message-ID: <788a5f53-1c83-01c6-2b40-9968d9b04ce4@farumdata.dk> On 2021-12-09 11:26, Dominique Carlier via cctalk wrote: > > On 9/12/2021 11:00, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: Sent ! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 9 06:26:51 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 12:26:51 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b201d7ecf8$0c03f730$240be590$@ntlworld.com> Hello Tony, > The power bricks draw very little current with no load on the output and 2.5A > would be fine to power one up. Are you saying that I can test them with no load? I thought they would need some load? > > Most, if not all, of the power bricks start by rectifying and smoothing the AC > input. As a result they will run off a DC input too. > You can test them using a bench supply, normally do. > > One final thing. Do not, (as I did when younger and even more foolish) > disable the over-current trip in a power brick. If the crowbar operates, you > will end up with transistors blown off the PCB. > > > -tony From lists at glitchwrks.com Thu Dec 9 07:37:12 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 13:37:12 +0000 Subject: NI PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer boards on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The NI GPIB-410 is also often available cheaply, it's basically the ISA version. I believe I saw the drivers for it on NI's FTP server when I was looking for the manual. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Thursday, December 9th, 2021 at 01:50, Rodney Brown via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/m.html?_ssn=techparts2020&_nkw="PCI-GPIB%2B" > > NI National Instruments PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer PCI IEEE488.2 Interface Card > > (~USD140) > > Ebay item # > > 284088568161 Copyright 1998 183619B-01 > > 284088565868 Copyright 2001 183619C-01 > > 284088570014 Copyright 2005 ASSY192125D-01 > > While a photo shows the Windows NI Analyzer software in use, the item > > doesn't mention it. > > If NI will provide the analyzer software, these could be used to capture > > HP-IB traffic to characterize the attached devices, timings etc. > > The HPDrive project mentions the analyzer cards as being supported > > https://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/#hpdrive From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 09:45:11 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:45:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/70 Boards In-Reply-To: <00b201d7ecf8$0c03f730$240be590$@ntlworld.com> References: <20211201175507.AC78818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <28e17671-656e-88b6-19e2-656a223d6075@charter.net> <096c01d7e96a$bdcb6e30$39624a90$@ntlworld.com> <527080D1-66DD-43F5-84F3-3A00D927158D@fritzm.org> <099f01d7e9bb$c1111f80$43335e80$@ntlworld.com> <628cffb9-cba7-d69a-dc55-c77c4da01a9a@charter.net> <008301d7ec7e$b286c490$17944db0$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7ecf8$0c03f730$240be590$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 12:26 PM Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Hello Tony, > > > The power bricks draw very little current with no load on the output and 2.5A > > would be fine to power one up. > > > Are you saying that I can test them with no load? I thought they would need some load? I'm pretty sure I've run them with no load and they have been fine. Note that the regulation is not that good, the voltage may be a little high with no load, and if you tweak it down with the preset you'll have to turn it up again when you run the PDP11 off said bricks. Also note that they are switching regulators. As a result, 2.5A input current at say 20V would give a good few amps (10A if they were 100% efficient, more like 8A in practice I would guess) at the output. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 9 10:47:08 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:47:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels Message-ID: <20211209164708.E25AA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay Jaeger > Also, if someone (else, presumably) does up a replica of the indicator > panel board (perhaps with the option to use LEDs, with some resistor > packs that could be bypassed for lamps Two points. First,there's the question 'are you trying to produce something that just _looks_ alike, or do you want something that's electrically compatible (i.e. can be swapped in in place of an original'? If the latter, it might be going to take a little work; it might not be just 'wire up some LEDs and go'. If you look at the indicator panel prints (pg. 190 of the RF11 prints), the incoming lines are tied to the base of a transistor; its emitter is tied to ground, and the light bulb is wired between the collector and +6.5V. This means, I think (I'm basicaly a software guy :-), that one turns the bulb on by putting a voltage on the input, which turns the transistor on, and current flows through the bulb to ground. (If I have that wrong, will someone please orrect me?) Given that the way TTL works is that 'logic' outputs actually sink currect when their output is '0' (i.e. current goes _in_ the 'output' pin), it might take a little work to make the right thing happen. Although maybe not; looking at the RK11-C prints, it seem to drive the indicator panel straight from the output of normal gates. I _think_ what happens is that when a gate's output is '1', the output's voltage floats high, and that's enough to turn on the transistor (above) driving the bulb. (Ditto the request for correction!) But the real issue with 'electrically compatible indicator panels' is the wiring. In the originals, the flat cables that drive them are soldered directly to the indicator panel board, and also to the paddle boards. So the _only_ standard interface location is the paddle boards. I suppose one could put Berg headers on both the indicator panel board and the paddle boards, and use a standard IDC cable betweenthe two... Mention of the paddle board interface brings me to the second point: even if one did produce electrically-compatible indicator panels - where are you going to use them in a PDP-11 system? Not in the CPUs - those all had their own front panels. The only PDP-11 devices which used indicator panels which I know of were: - the DX11 (I don't think anyone's got one of those) - the RF11 (ditto - although Guy was discussing emulating one at one point) - the RP11 (but the indicator panel is built into the controller rack there, so if one has an RP11, one already has the indicator panel) - the RK11-C (and several people who have those already have indicator panels) I agree, the indicator panels look cool - but where are you going to use one in a historical PDP-11 system? Sure, one could use either a electrically-compatible or non-electrically-compatible indicator panel anywhere you want, plugging into some non-historical hardware, but.. (The non-electrically-compatible indicator panel Dave did for the QSIC is initially being used in something which emulates an RK11 and/or RP11, so there's some rationale for it.) Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 14:33:52 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 12:33:52 -0800 Subject: NI PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer boards on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 10:50 PM Rodney Brown via cctalk wrote: > > NI National Instruments PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer PCI IEEE488.2 Interface Card > > While a photo shows the Windows NI Analyzer software in use, the item > doesn't mention it. > > If NI will provide the analyzer software, these could be used to capture > HP-IB traffic to characterize the attached devices, timings etc. > Has anyone recently installed and used the NI GPIB Analyzer software? Is that something that must be obtained and installed separately, or is it included as an optional component of the standard NI-488.2 download and installation? I suppose I could try downloading and installing the 1.19 GB current 21.0.0 version of the NI-488.2 software to take a look. The current 21.0.0 version of NI-VISA is another 1.11 GB download. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Dec 9 16:23:15 2021 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:23:15 +1100 Subject: NI PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer boards on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20211210092315.01675e68@mail.optusnet.com.au> About the software: I bought a couple of that seller's cards; one each of 284088568161 & 284088570014. Asked him about the software. Here's his reply. ======== Regarding your question about the Analyzer software, if I recall correctly it comes bundled in the "NI-488.2" software package. I believe the version in my screenshot in the eBay listing was v17.6 for Win7 SP1 x86, but it should still be fully supported in the newest v21.0 package for x86 or x64 systems. https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/downloads/drivers/download.ni-488-2.html LabVIEW version compatibility matrix: https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/documentation/compatibility/17/ni-488-2-and-labview-version-compatibility.html ======== All new to me. Now to hunt manuals for the cards. Guy At 12:33 PM 9/12/2021 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 10:50 PM Rodney Brown via cctalk > wrote: >> >> NI National Instruments PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer PCI IEEE488.2 Interface Card >> >> While a photo shows the Windows NI Analyzer software in use, the item >> doesn't mention it. >> >> If NI will provide the analyzer software, these could be used to capture >> HP-IB traffic to characterize the attached devices, timings etc. >> > >Has anyone recently installed and used the NI GPIB Analyzer software? >Is that something that must be obtained and installed separately, or >is it included as an optional component of the standard NI-488.2 >download and installation? > >I suppose I could try downloading and installing the 1.19 GB current >21.0.0 version of the NI-488.2 software to take a look. The current >21.0.0 version of NI-VISA is another 1.11 GB download. > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Dec 9 15:20:24 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 21:20:24 +0000 (WET) Subject: Overland T490 cartridge tape drive and autoloader Message-ID: <01S75GYRU4TC8WWJXI@beyondthepale.ie> Many years ago, a friend gave me an Overland T490 tape drive which has some kind of autoloader attached which takes ten tapes. I was told it came out of a Tandem system. The tapes are square cartridges similar but different to a DEC TK50. I can't find very much information about the drive on the web but there are some hints that it might be compatible with an IBM 3480. It powers up nicely and the fan works and after a short pause, a green LED illuminates. There are only two buttons on the front, "unload" and "format". There are two DD50 connectors on the back. One had a terminator plugged into it labelled "SCSI differential". The other had a ridiculously long cable with DD50 plugs on it connected, lending further credence that this is a differential (pre-LVD I expect) SCSI device. I would like to get this drive working with my Alpha or VAX VMS systems but I have never had any luck getting them to talk to it. Recently, I tried a using a DD50-HD68 cable I found somewhere to connect it to a differential SCSI card in my Alphaserver 800 but I could not get VMS to see the drive. Not knowing what SCSI id the drive is likely to be using makes it hard to know where to start looking for it. There are no switches on the outside of the drive which could be used to set the SCSI id so I opened it up to see if I could find any hints inside. I didn't see anything that looked like it could be used to set the SCSI id inside either. What I did find is that the interface board had a connector labelled "SCSI differential" which had two short lengths of ribbon cables plugged into it leading to the two DD50 connectors on the rear panel and another connector labelled "SCSI single ended" with nothing attached. There were also two ten way jumper packs which were labelled "DI" and "SE" on each side. So, not having any luck with differential so far, I tried moving the two jumper packs from "DI" to "SE" and moving the ribbon cable to the "SCSI single ended" socket. I used a short, known good DD50-DD50 SCSI cable to connect the drive to my VAX 4000-100A and replaced the differential terminator with a known good single-ended terminator. VMS didn't see the drive. VMS has a utility called scsi_info which can be used to send a SCSI inquiry command and read mode pages etc. Trying it against each unused SCSI id results in "device timeout" every time. The system disk is on the same SCSI bus before the tape drive and a SCSI scanner can be connected after it on the bus. Both devices work fine so the SCSI bus cabling and termination is in good shape on both sides of the tape drive. I've tried moving the system disk SCSI id from 0 to 1, changing the initiator SCSI id from 6 to 7 and replacing the scanner with a terminator in case there is any sort of SCSI id conflict but scsi_info still doesn't show up anything that could be the tape drive. Does anyone have any information about this drive, particularly whether it should behave like a standard SCSI tape drive and what SCSI id and/or lun it is expected to use or if there is some trick required to get it to start talking? Maybe it doesn't like SCSI inquiry commands? Extra bonus points awarded for details on how to control the autoloader. Maybe I did some damage to it when I was trying to get it to work when I first got it? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From steven at malikoff.com Thu Dec 9 18:13:29 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:13:29 -0000 Subject: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20211209164708.E25AA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211209164708.E25AA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noel said > The only PDP-11 devices which used indicator panels which I know of were: > > - the DX11 (I don't think anyone's got one of those) > - the RF11 (ditto - although Guy was discussing emulating one at one point) > - the RP11 (but the indicator panel is built into the controller rack there, > so if one has an RP11, one already has the indicator panel) > - the RK11-C (and several people who have those already have indicator panels) Was there ever an indicator panel for the RC11? Just curious as I have a set of RC11 modules (M7219, M7220, M7221, M7222, M7224, M7225) I found with the FOX-2/10 (PDP-11/15). No backplane though. I've not found any docs for these, I suppose they're probably on bitsavers and have overlooked them. Another indicator panel but non-DEC was the Foxboro drum (that's their description of the fixed-head disk) unit apparently using the DDC 6200 with their own proprietary DBI controller. The drum indicator panel bezel is the same casting as the 11/15's (and 11/20) as seen on page 1 of this extract: https://archive.org/details/drum_extract_from_FOXBORO_FOX2_Hardware_System_Overview_Jan1972 I have the complete Foxboro schematics for this controller including the panel with its 61 bulbs. It's on my to-do scanning pile. From an old 2007 message I found, I think Guy S has one? There was also a small mention of it being emulated in Section 4.4.15 of the Ersatz-11 manual. I can't see any evidence that the RC11 controller had anything to do with the Fox unit, so I have no idea why they had it. There was no trace of any fixed-head disk hardware with the 2/10 and I think it may have only been offered with the upgraded FOX 2/30 system. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 9 19:49:41 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 20:49:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: RC11 controller (Was: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels) Message-ID: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > Was there ever an indicator panel for the RC11? .. I have a set of RC11 > modules .. No backplane though. I've not found any docs for these, I suppose > they're probably on bitsavers and have overlooked them. Looking at the manual and engineering drawings (at BitSavers, as you guessed), no lights. I've added links to those to the CHWiki RC11 page: https://gunkies.org/wiki/RC11_disk_controller The engineering drawings have the wirelist for the backplane, so it would be possible to wire a new one. (I'm in the process of doing that for my KE11-A.) Not sure it would be much use without an RS64 drive, though. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 9 20:42:07 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 20:42:07 -0600 Subject: Overland T490 cartridge tape drive and autoloader In-Reply-To: <01S75GYRU4TC8WWJXI@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S75GYRU4TC8WWJXI@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <880dc2c6-e83f-f543-ee1c-f9502a17c51a@pico-systems.com> On 12/9/21 3:20 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Many years ago, a friend gave me an Overland T490 tape drive which has > some kind of autoloader attached which takes ten tapes. I was told it > came out of a Tandem system. The tapes are square cartridges similar > but different to a DEC TK50. I can't find very much information about > the drive on the web but there are some hints that it might be compatible > with an IBM 3480. It powers up nicely and the fan works and after a > short pause, a green LED illuminates. There are only two buttons on > the front, "unload" and "format". CDC made a Patriot drive that used 3480 cartridges, and had a SCSI interface. They were serpentine drives.? The CDC division was "Laser Magnetic Storage Int'l" Jon From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 22:00:25 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 04:00:25 +0000 Subject: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20211209164708.E25AA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211209164708.E25AA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 4:47 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > - the DX11 (I don't think anyone's got one of those) Technically correct, I have _two_. But alas nothing to connect them to. -tony From cube1 at charter.net Thu Dec 9 22:15:23 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 22:15:23 -0600 Subject: RC11 controller (Was: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels) In-Reply-To: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> On 12/9/2021 7:49 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Steven Malikoff > > > Was there ever an indicator panel for the RC11? .. I have a set of RC11 > > modules .. No backplane though. I've not found any docs for these, I suppose > > they're probably on bitsavers and have overlooked them. > > Looking at the manual and engineering drawings (at BitSavers, as you guessed), no lights. > > I've added links to those to the CHWiki RC11 page: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/RC11_disk_controller > > The engineering drawings have the wirelist for the backplane, so it would be > possible to wire a new one. (I'm in the process of doing that for my KE11-A.) > Not sure it would be much use without an RS64 drive, though. > > Noel > One could perhaps emulate the RS64 data stream using a fast-enough micro, ala the MFM emulator. JRJ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 9 23:06:35 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 21:06:35 -0800 Subject: RC11 controller (Was: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels) In-Reply-To: <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> References: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> Message-ID: <7d672456-b650-0f7a-f156-f08e1e7a1223@shiresoft.com> On 12/9/21 8:15 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > One could perhaps emulate the RS64 data stream using a fast-enough > micro, ala the MFM emulator. > Why does everyone seem to want to emulate HW like this with a micro when a reasonable FPGA implementation with some external FRAM would do the job? The SMD/ESDI emulator that I've been working on has to "brute force" the emulation because of BW concerns.? That is, it has to read the entire emulated disk image into DRAM because: 1. You need at least a track's worth of buffering to send/receive the data though the data interface (serial) 2. You don't have enough time to transfer tracks in/out of the track buffer to flash (or what ever) to meet the head switch times 3. You don't have enough time to transfer whole cylinders in/out of the cylinder buffer to flash (or what ever) to have reasonable track-to-track seek times So it will require a micro, but that's mainly to manage what's going in/out of the (large) DRAM back to flash (it reads the entire emulated disk image into DRAM during boot).? All of the actual commands and data movement across the interface are all done by an FPGA. -- TTFN - Guy From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 10 03:31:38 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:31:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Dec 2021, nico de jong wrote: > You need a COM port (or simulator) and a little box converting RS232 to 50 > BPS serial.? Diagrams can be found everywhere. But you could also look at There isn't such a converter thing ;-) What you mean is a converter between current loop and V.28. To be precise, RS232 defines connector type, voltages and signalling. The latter is identical for all telex/teletype machines. The baud rate is of no interest in these cases. Christian From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Dec 10 03:35:06 2021 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:35:06 +0100 Subject: Overland T490 cartridge tape drive and autoloader In-Reply-To: <01S75GYRU4TC8WWJXI@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01S75GYRU4TC8WWJXI@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hello Peter Yes, the drive is 3480 compatible. I have only seen them as "normal" SCSI, but that is not the same as saying that differential versions do not exist. I believe I have a manual somewhere, but can't look into it until mid next week I'll get back to you if I find it Nico On 2021-12-09 22:20, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Many years ago, a friend gave me an Overland T490 tape drive which has > some kind of autoloader attached which takes ten tapes. I was told it > came out of a Tandem system. The tapes are square cartridges similar > but different to a DEC TK50. I can't find very much information about > the drive on the web but there are some hints that it might be compatible > with an IBM 3480. It powers up nicely and the fan works and after a > short pause, a green LED illuminates. There are only two buttons on > the front, "unload" and "format". > > There are two DD50 connectors on the back. One had a terminator plugged > into it labelled "SCSI differential". The other had a ridiculously long > cable with DD50 plugs on it connected, lending further credence that > this is a differential (pre-LVD I expect) SCSI device. > > I would like to get this drive working with my Alpha or VAX VMS systems > but I have never had any luck getting them to talk to it. Recently, > I tried a using a DD50-HD68 cable I found somewhere to connect it to > a differential SCSI card in my Alphaserver 800 but I could not get VMS > to see the drive. Not knowing what SCSI id the drive is likely to be > using makes it hard to know where to start looking for it. > > There are no switches on the outside of the drive which could be used > to set the SCSI id so I opened it up to see if I could find any hints > inside. I didn't see anything that looked like it could be used to > set the SCSI id inside either. What I did find is that the interface > board had a connector labelled "SCSI differential" which had two short > lengths of ribbon cables plugged into it leading to the two DD50 > connectors on the rear panel and another connector labelled > "SCSI single ended" with nothing attached. There were also two ten way > jumper packs which were labelled "DI" and "SE" on each side. > > So, not having any luck with differential so far, I tried moving the > two jumper packs from "DI" to "SE" and moving the ribbon cable to the > "SCSI single ended" socket. I used a short, known good DD50-DD50 SCSI > cable to connect the drive to my VAX 4000-100A and replaced the > differential terminator with a known good single-ended terminator. > VMS didn't see the drive. VMS has a utility called scsi_info which can > be used to send a SCSI inquiry command and read mode pages etc. Trying it > against each unused SCSI id results in "device timeout" every time. The > system disk is on the same SCSI bus before the tape drive and a SCSI > scanner can be connected after it on the bus. Both devices work fine so > the SCSI bus cabling and termination is in good shape on both sides of > the tape drive. I've tried moving the system disk SCSI id from 0 to 1, > changing the initiator SCSI id from 6 to 7 and replacing the scanner with > a terminator in case there is any sort of SCSI id conflict but scsi_info > still doesn't show up anything that could be the tape drive. > > Does anyone have any information about this drive, particularly > whether it should behave like a standard SCSI tape drive and what > SCSI id and/or lun it is expected to use or if there is some trick > required to get it to start talking? Maybe it doesn't like SCSI > inquiry commands? > > Extra bonus points awarded for details on how to control the autoloader. > > Maybe I did some damage to it when I was trying to get it to work when > I first got it? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Dec 10 03:37:55 2021 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:37:55 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available In-Reply-To: References: <2c8eb820-e6ef-8112-8701-b1017f0fd78d@12bitsbest.com> <6064DE37-CC91-4BB8-A6EC-71115CD6D5FA@comcast.net> <48a70d32-94f4-bd76-74c0-db94d97c1993@skynet.be> <79fad772-c6d7-2cc1-e823-574319f81a8d@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <3ef93c53-00ac-a471-bff2-46755362ea15@farumdata.dk> On 2021-12-10 10:31, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 Dec 2021, nico de jong wrote: >> You need a COM port (or simulator) and a little box converting RS232 >> to 50 BPS serial.? Diagrams can be found everywhere. But you could >> also look at > > There isn't such a converter thing ;-) > What you mean is a converter between current loop and V.28. > To be precise, RS232 defines connector type, voltages and signalling. > The latter is identical for all telex/teletype machines. The baud rate > is of no interest in these cases. > > Christian Yes, you are right Sorry for using the wrong wording :-( Nico. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 10 07:37:07 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 08:37:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels Message-ID: <20211210133707.BA33618C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > I have _two_. But alas nothing to connect them to. Well, there are still a good flock of machines with IBM channels around, but _you_ don't have one (I can't blame you :-). I wonder if any of the people with IBM channel machines have any need to connect to an -11? Speaking of extant dinosaurs, I wonder if any RF11's still exist? Noel From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 10 08:21:11 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 08:21:11 -0600 Subject: RC11 controller (Was: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels) In-Reply-To: <7d672456-b650-0f7a-f156-f08e1e7a1223@shiresoft.com> References: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> <7d672456-b650-0f7a-f156-f08e1e7a1223@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 12/9/2021 11:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/9/21 8:15 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> One could perhaps emulate the RS64 data stream using a fast-enough >> micro, ala the MFM emulator. >> > Why does everyone seem to want to emulate HW like this with a micro when > a reasonable FPGA implementation with some external FRAM would do the job? > 1) Because not everyone has that kind of design experience and capability (I do, but that is beside the point). In such a case, suggesting a FPGA might cause those readers to just skip it without further thought, whereas suggesting a micro is less likely to have that effect on someone who *does* have the design experience. 2) Because the tooling on FPGAs is sometimes a pain and the parts themselves are always in flux, and the updated tools often don't support the older parts. Over the last 20 years I have gone through at least 3 different FPGA development boards and toolsets, where as my original Arduino is just as useful as ever. 3) Because a highly flexible FPGA development board costs a lot more than a micro, and micros would be a lot cheaper on a stand-alone PCB than an FPGA part (or an FPGA through-hold carrier for those who are not up to doing something like an FPGA part on a PCB.) 4) Because a micro form factor is smaller than an FPGA development board. 5) For someone well versed in software but not as well versed in design (though enough that they could still do what you suggest), doing the software might only take a couple of days for something like a 64Kw disk (if it isn't too fast), and easier to debug/fix/enhance as well. 6) Because it was just a *suggestion* that one might emulate the disk itself in hardware (see also point 1). On the other hand, speed kills, and some disks are just too fast for a micro alone to do. > The SMD/ESDI emulator that I've been working on has to "brute force" the > emulation because of BW concerns.? That is, it has to read the entire > emulated disk image into DRAM because: > > 1. You need at least a track's worth of buffering to send/receive the > ?? data though the data interface (serial) > 2. You don't have enough time to transfer tracks in/out of the track > ?? buffer to flash (or what ever) to meet the head switch times > 3. You don't have enough time to transfer whole cylinders in/out of the > ?? cylinder buffer to flash (or what ever) to have reasonable > ?? track-to-track seek times > > So it will require a micro, but that's mainly to manage what's going > in/out of the (large) DRAM back to flash (it reads the entire emulated > disk image into DRAM during boot).? All of the actual commands and data > movement across the interface are all done by an FPGA. > Cool. Would love an ESDI emulator for my Apollo DN3000 and SMD emulation for my VAXen and PDP-11/24. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 10 08:57:24 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:57:24 -0500 Subject: RC11 controller (Was: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels) In-Reply-To: <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> References: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> Message-ID: <5409020B-FFC7-487D-961B-A0A172D70520@comcast.net> > On Dec 9, 2021, at 11:15 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/9/2021 7:49 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Steven Malikoff >> > Was there ever an indicator panel for the RC11? .. I have a set of RC11 >> > modules .. No backplane though. I've not found any docs for these, I suppose >> > they're probably on bitsavers and have overlooked them. >> Looking at the manual and engineering drawings (at BitSavers, as you guessed), no lights. >> I've added links to those to the CHWiki RC11 page: >> https://gunkies.org/wiki/RC11_disk_controller >> The engineering drawings have the wirelist for the backplane, so it would be >> possible to wire a new one. (I'm in the process of doing that for my KE11-A.) >> Not sure it would be much use without an RS64 drive, though. >> Noel > > One could perhaps emulate the RS64 data stream using a fast-enough micro, ala the MFM emulator. Quite easily, I'm sure. The RC11 runs at a word per 16 microseconds, a megabit per second. The RF11 transfer rate is the same. So either one could easily be emulated: a $4 Raspberry Pico is more than enough for the task (the BeagleBone of the MFM emulator would be massive overkill). paul From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 10:11:51 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 16:11:51 +0000 Subject: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20211210133707.BA33618C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211210133707.BA33618C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 1:37 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Tony Duell > > > I have _two_. But alas nothing to connect them to. > > Well, there are still a good flock of machines with IBM channels around, but > _you_ don't have one (I can't blame you :-). I wonder if any of the people Sorry, that's what I meant. I have nothing to control an IBM channel. -tony From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 10 11:57:29 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:57:29 -0800 Subject: RC11 controller (Was: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels) In-Reply-To: References: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> <7d672456-b650-0f7a-f156-f08e1e7a1223@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0c280a74-1f76-82e0-5891-8b51976b0fcd@shiresoft.com> On 12/10/21 6:21 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 12/9/2021 11:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 12/9/21 8:15 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> One could perhaps emulate the RS64 data stream using a fast-enough >>> micro, ala the MFM emulator. >>> >> Why does everyone seem to want to emulate HW like this with a micro >> when a reasonable FPGA implementation with some external FRAM would >> do the job? >> > > 1)? Because not everyone has that kind of design experience and > capability (I do, but that is beside the point).? In such a case, > suggesting a FPGA might cause those readers to just skip it without > further thought, whereas suggesting a micro is less likely to have > that effect on someone who *does* have the design experience. > > 2)? Because the tooling on FPGAs is sometimes a pain and the parts > themselves are always in flux, and the updated tools often don't > support the older parts.? Over the last 20 years I have gone through > at least 3 different FPGA development boards and toolsets, where as my > original Arduino is just as useful as ever. > > 3)? Because a highly flexible FPGA development board costs a lot more > than a micro, and micros would be a lot cheaper on a stand-alone PCB > than an FPGA part (or an FPGA through-hold carrier for those who are > not up to doing something like an FPGA part on a PCB.) > > 4)? Because a micro form factor is smaller than an FPGA development > board. > > 5)? For someone well versed in software but not as well versed in > design (though enough that they could still do what you suggest), > doing the software might only take a couple of days for something like > a 64Kw disk (if it isn't too fast), and easier to debug/fix/enhance as > well. > > 6)? Because it was just a *suggestion* that one might emulate the disk > itself in hardware (see also point 1). All valid points.? My frustration has been where I see projects that use a RPi for something that a simple HW circuit/CPLD/FPGA could have done it simpler and more efficiently. I've lost count of the FPGA boards that I have.? I also typically don't use eval boards for actual projects other than testing a few "flows".? Everything gets done with a custom board because I typically need other components and it gets too messy if I'm just using an "off the shelf" eval board (and more than likely the eval board doesn't have enough I/Os). I should also note that the Beagle Bone MFM emulator isn't actually fast enough.? It works OK if you only have one drive but it's not fast enough to handle the drive select signal when you have more than one. > > On the other hand, speed kills, and some disks are just too fast for a > micro alone to do. Project below.? ;-) > >> The SMD/ESDI emulator that I've been working on has to "brute force" >> the emulation because of BW concerns.? That is, it has to read the >> entire emulated disk image into DRAM because: >> >> 1. You need at least a track's worth of buffering to send/receive the >> ??? data though the data interface (serial) >> 2. You don't have enough time to transfer tracks in/out of the track >> ??? buffer to flash (or what ever) to meet the head switch times >> 3. You don't have enough time to transfer whole cylinders in/out of the >> ??? cylinder buffer to flash (or what ever) to have reasonable >> ??? track-to-track seek times >> >> So it will require a micro, but that's mainly to manage what's going >> in/out of the (large) DRAM back to flash (it reads the entire >> emulated disk image into DRAM during boot).? All of the actual >> commands and data movement across the interface are all done by an FPGA. >> > > Cool.? Would love an ESDI emulator for my Apollo DN3000 and SMD > emulation for my VAXen and PDP-11/24. Yes, it's on my project list...I have it mostly designed but other stuff has pushed in front of it.? The big issue is the SW (HW is fairly straightforward)..which is funny because I'm a system SW guy.? ;-)? I'm using a Xilinx Zynq FPGA mainly because I need: * A reasonably fast processor for handling the run-time management of buffers (one version has 4 ARM Cortex-A9 CPUs running at 1+GHz and the other has 4 ARM Cortex-A53 CPUs running at 1.5GHz). * Lots of DRAM (has to contain the entire emulated disk image). Smaller Zynq FPGA will support 1GB of DRAM and the larger one (at least the one that I'm using) supports 4GB of DRAM. * Lots of internal RAM (has to contain the maximum sized cylinder) * A *fast* connection between the DRAM and internal RAM (this determines the track-to-track latency).? Cylinders can be up to 1MB (32KB/track, 32heads per cylinder) so when seeking, up to 2MB (1MB in, 1MB out) has to be moved to/from DRAM.? I'm trying to keep the seek times < 10ms (ideally ~4ms) so that means my data rate has to be on the order of 200-500MB/s. I'm doing this for my Symbolics machines (ESDI and SMD) and 11/70 (SMD). -- TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 10 12:23:38 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 13:23:38 -0500 Subject: RC11 controller (Was: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels) In-Reply-To: <0c280a74-1f76-82e0-5891-8b51976b0fcd@shiresoft.com> References: <20211210014941.4D26318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <79970124-cdfa-9ae3-27e4-1b5d43e7ddf1@charter.net> <7d672456-b650-0f7a-f156-f08e1e7a1223@shiresoft.com> <0c280a74-1f76-82e0-5891-8b51976b0fcd@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <75B469FC-0C51-424F-AC46-E0F7DFD9E1D9@comcast.net> > On Dec 10, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > All valid points. My frustration has been where I see projects that use a RPi for something that a simple HW circuit/CPLD/FPGA could have done it simpler and more efficiently. > > I've lost count of the FPGA boards that I have. I also typically don't use eval boards for actual projects other than testing a few "flows". Everything gets done with a custom board because I typically need other components and it gets too messy if I'm just using an "off the shelf" eval board (and more than likely the eval board doesn't have enough I/Os). I've done some pretty large VHDL designs (though not structured in the most conventional manner). It's definitely one option. It's a good one for large designs, or ones with severe performance requirements. FPGA (VHDL or Verilog) work requires learning not just a new language but a way of looking at design that's unfamiliar to software people. It's interesting and rewarding but not a simple thing to do. And even "simple CPLD" projects aren't necessarily simpler done that way, at least not for people like me. To pick an example: I have a rudimentary software-defined radio I built around 1998 (using Harris SDR chips) which uses a Lattice CPLD to interface to an EPP mode parallel printer interface. That's conceptually a simple task but it turned out to be surprisingly hairy. At the time it was the best answer; if I were to attempt a similar project today I would most likely pick a Raspberry Pico to do the interfacing. The Pico is in fact a good example to point to. While a Pi is a full Linux system, a Pico is a deep-embedded device, tiny and dirt cheap even by Arduino standards. I've seen low end FPGA boards but I don't know if you can beat $4 as the price tag. And add to that the fact that FPGA development software often only runs on *gag* Windows, while embedded software boards such as RPico offer open IDE systems that run on real host operating systems. > I should also note that the Beagle Bone MFM emulator isn't actually fast enough. It works OK if you only have one drive but it's not fast enough to handle the drive select signal when you have more than one. I haven't run into that, it's rather puzzing why that would be so given that MFM does one drive at a time. In any case, the original comment was about RC11, which is massively slower than MFM disks. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 20:30:41 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:30:41 -0800 Subject: NI PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer boards on ebay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20211210092315.01675e68@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20211210092315.01675e68@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 2:26 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > About the software: > I bought a couple of that seller's cards; one each of 284088568161 & 284088570014. > Asked him about the software. Here's his reply. > ======== > Regarding your question about the Analyzer software, if I recall correctly it comes bundled in the "NI-488.2" software package. I believe the version in my screenshot in the eBay listing was v17.6 for Win7 SP1 x86, but it should still be fully supported in the newest v21.0 package for x86 or x64 systems. > I was curious enough that I also picked up a PCI-GPIB+, one of the newer versions and apparently the current version, same version as item 284088570014 instead of the earlier version as item 284088568161. The two versions might be functionally equivalent, maybe it was just a redesign for cost reduction and/or some components of the design reaching end of production status. When I receive the PCI-GPIB+ I'll have to see if I can get it up and running with the analyzer software. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 11 12:21:25 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:21:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait Message-ID: <20211211182125.6B73B18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This guy: https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=jariadkin-0&_sop=10 has a couple of PDP-8 boards for sale that at the moment are going _really_ cheap. Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 11 12:30:43 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:30:43 -0800 Subject: ISO: DEC PDP-8 Data Multiplexer (DM01, etc.) Message-ID: Hey all -- Got the TC01 working the other night, after a couple weeks of debugging (*). I'd like to be able to have both it and the RF08 that I'm working on connected to the 8/I and running at the same time, so I'm looking for a DM01 Data Multiplexer. If anyone has any leads, do let me know. Thanks as always, - Josh (*) Total TC01 fault count (so far): - Bad transistor in TU55 motor brake control (W040) - Bad jumper solder joints in TU55 (W990) - Timing of UTS and U+M one-shots (R303) way out of adjustment (U+M one-shot was at 2 seconds or so...) - Bad tape data relay (G851) - Bad IOT decoder transistor (W103) - Missing Diode (W113) and weak diode in Write enable selection logic - Timing of write clock way, way out of adjustment (90Khz vs. 125Khz expected.) - 24 dead maintenance panel bulbs - 2 dead TU55 bulbs (yet to be replaced) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 11 15:31:45 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 16:31:45 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait In-Reply-To: <20211211182125.6B73B18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211211182125.6B73B18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 1:21 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This guy: > > https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=jariadkin-0&_sop=10 > > has a couple of PDP-8 boards for sale that at the moment are going _really_ cheap. Tap handles and DEC boards? Odd mix. I took a risk and bid. I have an -8/e and -8/m to fix. Thanks! -ethan From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Dec 11 22:00:57 2021 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 20:00:57 -0800 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards Message-ID: I'm using debug logs to try to debug flow control issues when using mTCP and a packet driver that presents itself as Ethernet but actually uses ARCNET. I've gotten to the point where I just want to have an Arcnet in the house. Especially since I might just modify mTCP to work with Arcnet packet drivers and cards directly. Before I get too serious with eBay, does anybody want to rehome some Arcnet hardware? -Mike From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Dec 11 22:19:06 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 04:19:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1961633108.407863.1639282746182@mail.yahoo.com> I remember? you? could? get? arcnet? ?for? HP? 150? also? ?Ed#? In a message dated 12/11/2021 9:01:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? I'm using debug logs to try to debug flow control issues when using mTCPand a packet driver that presents itself as Ethernet but actually usesARCNET.? I've gotten to the point where I just want to have an Arcnet inthe house.? Especially since I might just modify mTCP to work with Arcnetpacket drivers and cards directly.?Before I get too serious with eBay, does anybody want to rehome some Arcnethardware???-Mike From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 04:05:28 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 05:05:28 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings, I had quite a few arcnet cards laying around a while back, I had picked up a ton of them from the back storage of a datacenter that was clearing out surplus equipment. I am uncertain of how many I still have in storage. How many do you need? If you are able to wait a couple days, I can check how many I have remaining in storage, and I can ship them to you once found. --Devin D. On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 11:01 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm using debug logs to try to debug flow control issues when using mTCP > and a packet driver that presents itself as Ethernet but actually uses > ARCNET. I've gotten to the point where I just want to have an Arcnet in > the house. Especially since I might just modify mTCP to work with Arcnet > packet drivers and cards directly. > > Before I get too serious with eBay, does anybody want to rehome some Arcnet > hardware? > > > -Mike > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Dec 12 12:06:15 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:06:15 -0700 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <248593d3-9977-e6f0-6a1d-e579d4760f90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/12/21 3:05 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Greetings, Hi Devin, > I had quite a few arcnet cards laying around a while back, I had picked up > a ton of them from the back storage of a datacenter that was clearing out > surplus equipment. I am uncertain of how many I still have in storage. How > many do you need? I'd like to raise my hand as interested in some ARCNET cards. In a secondary capacity, after Michael gets his fill. > If you are able to wait a couple days, I can check how many I have > remaining in storage, and I can ship them to you once found. I can easily wait. I've been occasionally looking for ARCNET cards over the years as I'd like to play with ARCNET for edutainment purposes. I have no /need/ for them, only a moderate /desire/. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Sun Dec 12 13:08:03 2021 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:08:03 -0800 Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> I just unpacked the rack with my TU56 DECtape drive and discovered that the movers managed to break the takeup reels. This, despite many layers of foam padding, stretch film, and warning signs. On the other hand, this was the only item that suffered any damage at all. Not too bad for three moving van loads! Can anyone help me with an empty DECtape reel or two? Thanks, Alan Frisbie From new_castle_j at yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 15:27:03 2021 From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 21:27:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> I'll be following your progress with interest, I just installed Coax into the walls of my computer playhouse so I can ARCNet with my S-100 system. I have an ARCNet packet sniffer that can be loaned out if you would find it helpful. - Jonathan On Sunday, December 12, 2021, 11:00:03 AM MST, wrote: Send cctalk mailing list submissions to ??? cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait (Noel Chiappa) ? 2. ISO: DEC PDP-8 Data Multiplexer (DM01, etc.) (Josh Dersch) ? 3. Re: Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait (Ethan Dicks) ? 4. Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards ? ? ? (Michael Brutman) ? 5. Re: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards (ED SHARPE) ? 6. Re: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards ? ? ? (devin davison) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:21:25 -0500 (EST) From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait Message-ID: <20211211182125.6B73B18C077 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This guy: ? https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=jariadkin-0&_sop=10 has a couple of PDP-8 boards for sale that at the moment are going _really_ cheap. ? ? Noel ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:30:43 -0800 From: Josh Dersch To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ??? Subject: ISO: DEC PDP-8 Data Multiplexer (DM01, etc.) Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey all -- Got the TC01 working the other night, after a couple weeks of debugging (*).? I'd like to be able to have both it and the RF08 that I'm working on connected to the 8/I and running at the same time, so I'm looking for a DM01 Data Multiplexer.? If anyone has any leads, do let me know. Thanks as always, - Josh (*) Total TC01 fault count (so far): - Bad transistor in TU55 motor brake control (W040) - Bad jumper solder joints in TU55 (W990) - Timing of UTS and U+M one-shots (R303) way out of adjustment (U+M one-shot was at 2 seconds or so...) - Bad tape data relay (G851) - Bad IOT decoder transistor (W103) - Missing Diode (W113) and weak diode in Write enable selection logic - Timing of write clock way, way out of adjustment (90Khz vs. 125Khz expected.) - 24 dead maintenance panel bulbs - 2 dead TU55 bulbs (yet to be replaced) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 16:31:45 -0500 From: Ethan Dicks To: Noel Chiappa ,? "General Discussion: ??? On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 1:21 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This guy: > >? https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=jariadkin-0&_sop=10 > > has a couple of PDP-8 boards for sale that at the moment are going _really_ cheap. Tap handles and DEC boards?? Odd mix. I took a risk and bid.? I have an -8/e and -8/m to fix. Thanks! -ethan ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 20:00:57 -0800 From: Michael Brutman To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ??? Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm using debug logs to try to debug flow control issues when using mTCP and a packet driver that presents itself as Ethernet but actually uses ARCNET.? I've gotten to the point where I just want to have an Arcnet in the house.? Especially since I might just modify mTCP to work with Arcnet packet drivers and cards directly. Before I get too serious with eBay, does anybody want to rehome some Arcnet hardware? -Mike ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 04:19:06 +0000 (UTC) From: ED SHARPE To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards Message-ID: <1961633108.407863.1639282746182 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I remember? you? could? get? arcnet? ?for? HP? 150? also? ?Ed#? In a message dated 12/11/2021 9:01:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? I'm using debug logs to try to debug flow control issues when using mTCPand a packet driver that presents itself as Ethernet but actually usesARCNET.? I've gotten to the point where I just want to have an Arcnet inthe house.? Especially since I might just modify mTCP to work with Arcnetpacket drivers and cards directly.?Before I get too serious with eBay, does anybody want to rehome some Arcnethardware???-Mike ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 05:05:28 -0500 From: devin davison To: Michael Brutman ,? "General Discussion: ??? On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Greetings, I had quite a few arcnet cards laying around a while back, I had picked up a ton of them from the back storage of a datacenter that was clearing out surplus equipment. I am uncertain of how many I still have in storage. How many do you need? If you are able to wait a couple days, I can check how many I have remaining in storage, and I can ship them to you once found. --Devin D. On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 11:01 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm using debug logs to try to debug flow control issues when using mTCP > and a packet driver that presents itself as Ethernet but actually uses > ARCNET.? I've gotten to the point where I just want to have an Arcnet in > the house.? Especially since I might just modify mTCP to work with Arcnet > packet drivers and cards directly. > > Before I get too serious with eBay, does anybody want to rehome some Arcnet > hardware? > > > -Mike > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 87, Issue 12 ************************************** From lists at glitchwrks.com Sun Dec 12 15:59:22 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 21:59:22 +0000 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: <248593d3-9977-e6f0-6a1d-e579d4760f90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <248593d3-9977-e6f0-6a1d-e579d4760f90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Mike, I have some Pure Data PDI508+ ARCnet cards kicking around. I used them to develop the repair board for the funky DS1292 "Eliminator" (nonvolatile, battery-backed *shift* *register*) that they use. All, If you should happen to have Pure Data PDI508+ cards, we have rebuilds for the Dallas DS1292 they use -- the rebuilds aren't online yet as we haven't bothered to put them into production (this and some versions of the AST RAMpAT! use them). Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, December 12th, 2021 at 13:06, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/12/21 3:05 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > > Greetings, > > Hi Devin, > > > I had quite a few arcnet cards laying around a while back, I had picked up > > > > a ton of them from the back storage of a datacenter that was clearing out > > > > surplus equipment. I am uncertain of how many I still have in storage. How > > > > many do you need? > > I'd like to raise my hand as interested in some ARCNET cards. In a > > secondary capacity, after Michael gets his fill. > > > If you are able to wait a couple days, I can check how many I have > > > > remaining in storage, and I can ship them to you once found. > > I can easily wait. I've been occasionally looking for ARCNET cards over > > the years as I'd like to play with ARCNET for edutainment purposes. I > > have no /need/ for them, only a moderate /desire/. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 12 16:17:50 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 22:17:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wanted : HP-150 AND...IBM PC and hp150 compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: <248593d3-9977-e6f0-6a1d-e579d4760f90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <2003992430.696274.1639347470044@mail.yahoo.com> Ok hearing all this? it makes me want to make HP-150 and a IBM-PC talk together!? Does anyone remmber? if hp-150 had? regular like we yse today network cards or... if they only had ARCNET cards? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 2:59 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: Mike, I have some Pure Data PDI508+ ARCnet cards kicking around. I used them to develop the repair board for the funky DS1292 "Eliminator" (nonvolatile, battery-backed *shift* *register*) that they use. All, If you should happen to have Pure Data PDI508+ cards, we have rebuilds for the Dallas DS1292 they use -- the rebuilds aren't online yet as we haven't bothered to put them into production (this and some versions of the AST RAMpAT! use them). Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, December 12th, 2021 at 13:06, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/12/21 3:05 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > > Greetings, > > Hi Devin, > > > I had quite a few arcnet cards laying around a while back, I had picked up > > > > a ton of them from the back storage of a datacenter that was clearing out > > > > surplus equipment. I am uncertain of how many I still have in storage. How > > > > many do you need? > > I'd like to raise my hand as interested in some ARCNET cards. In a > > secondary capacity, after Michael gets his fill. > > > If you are able to wait a couple days, I can check how many I have > > > > remaining in storage, and I can ship them to you once found. > > I can easily wait. I've been occasionally looking for ARCNET cards over > > the years as I'd like to play with ARCNET for edutainment purposes. I > > have no /need/ for them, only a moderate /desire/. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 12 16:24:04 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 22:24:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wanted : HP-150 AND...IBM PC and hp150 compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: <2003992430.696274.1639347470044@mail.yahoo.com> References: <248593d3-9977-e6f0-6a1d-e579d4760f90@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <2003992430.696274.1639347470044@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1178523958.699361.1639347844983@mail.yahoo.com> I would also need card for PC also as well as the needed cRds for HP-150.....NOW IF THE HP HAD REGULAR NETWORK STYLE CARDS? that I could use In 150 that would be great...? I just do not remember if they were available. Thx. Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 3:17 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Ok hearing all this? it makes me want to make HP-150 and a IBM-PC talk together!? Does anyone remmber? if hp-150 had? regular like we yse today network cards or... if they only had ARCNET cards? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android ? On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 2:59 PM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote:? Mike, I have some Pure Data PDI508+ ARCnet cards kicking around. I used them to develop the repair board for the funky DS1292 "Eliminator" (nonvolatile, battery-backed *shift* *register*) that they use. All, If you should happen to have Pure Data PDI508+ cards, we have rebuilds for the Dallas DS1292 they use -- the rebuilds aren't online yet as we haven't bothered to put them into production (this and some versions of the AST RAMpAT! use them). Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, December 12th, 2021 at 13:06, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/12/21 3:05 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > > Greetings, > > Hi Devin, > > > I had quite a few arcnet cards laying around a while back, I had picked up > > > > a ton of them from the back storage of a datacenter that was clearing out > > > > surplus equipment. I am uncertain of how many I still have in storage. How > > > > many do you need? > > I'd like to raise my hand as interested in some ARCNET cards. In a > > secondary capacity, after Michael gets his fill. > > > If you are able to wait a couple days, I can check how many I have > > > > remaining in storage, and I can ship them to you once found. > > I can easily wait. I've been occasionally looking for ARCNET cards over > > the years as I'd like to play with ARCNET for edutainment purposes. I > > have no /need/ for them, only a moderate /desire/. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die ? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 23:25:05 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 00:25:05 -0500 Subject: Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20211211182125.6B73B18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 4:31 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 1:21 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > > https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=jariadkin-0&_sop=10 > > > > has a couple of PDP-8 boards for sale that at the moment are going _really_ cheap. They went for $80-$100 each, not surprising really. Whoever the early bidder was came back at the end with a much higher bid. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 23:28:22 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 00:28:22 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 4:27 PM Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote: > I'll be following your progress with interest, I just installed Coax into the walls of my computer playhouse so I can ARCNet with my S-100 system. I have an ARCNet packet sniffer that can be loaned out if you would find it helpful. > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 20:00:57 -0800 > From: Michael Brutman > > ... I've gotten to the point where I just want to have an Arcnet in > the house. I haven't used ARCnet since we used to use it for 4-player Doom (especially since not everyone in the gaming group had Ethernet at home yet and it was easy to make a passive 4-port ARCnet hub. -ethan From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 13 03:14:40 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 09:14:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What is this massive binder of computer minutes1955 to 1964. I did cel phone or of text below we have References: <92774886.417092.1639386880594.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92774886.417092.1639386880594@mail.yahoo.com> May be some errors In ocr..The Second Meeting of the Committee to Study Developments in Electronic Computing Machines and Their Application, September 22, 1955 The second meeting of the Committee was held on Sept ember 22, 1955, at 2 P.M. in the Board room at the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.Messrs. J.T. Marshall (Chairman);B.G. Ballard; H. Freedman; C.J. Gardner; R.W. James ; N. Keyfitz; J.A. Kidd; E.0. Landry; C. Scott; and R. Ziola (Secretary ) Present were: The Chairman pointed out that minutesof the first meeting of this Committee had been distribut ed to all membersand called for comments and correctionsS. were adopted 8s presented The minut es The Chairman referred to the Treasury Board letter T.B.486770 which gave approval to the setting up of this Committee and expressed appreciation to Messrs. E.0. Landry and D.. atters for their assistance in connection with the Committee's submission e rea.suryboard. During the sumer months officials representing three manufacturers of electronic eqipment met with members of the Commit tee to discuss some aspects of the equipment afactured. These included: 2. orfieials from Burroughs who explained the operating princ iples of the B.101 at a meeting held at the Dominion Bureau of Statistics on June 22, 1955. 2. Officials of .C.A. who explained the operating principles of BIZMAC at a eeting beld at the Jackson Building on July 7, 1955. S.0fficials from IEM ho presented a short movie on "Direct line to decisions ", dealing with the type 650 and 700 series of machinesat a meeting held at the C.h.?. Hess on August 12, 1955. n referring to letters received since the first meeting,the Chairman pointed u that since they dealt with same of the topics includedon the agenda it might be CaairabLeto considerthen when the se topics were under discus sion.? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Dec 13 03:18:02 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 09:18:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What is this massive binder of computer minutes1955 to 1964. I did cel phone or of text below we have In-Reply-To: <92774886.417092.1639386880594@mail.yahoo.com> References: <92774886.417092.1639386880594.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <92774886.417092.1639386880594@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <107671124.765198.1639387082202@mail.yahoo.com> There is eeting one thru 80 something plus other study reports. Page one of minutes 1 has? bad spots so I ocr the header? off meeting 2 Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 2:14 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: May be some errors In ocr..The Second Meeting of the Committee to Study Developments in Electronic Computing Machines and Their Application, September 22, 1955 The second meeting of the Committee was held on Sept ember 22, 1955, at 2 P.M. in the Board room at the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.Messrs. J.T. Marshall (Chairman);B.G. Ballard; H. Freedman; C.J. Gardner; R.W. James ; N. Keyfitz; J.A. Kidd; E.0. Landry; C. Scott; and R. Ziola (Secretary ) Present were: The Chairman pointed out that minutesof the first meeting of this Committee had been distribut ed to all membersand called for comments and correctionsS. were adopted 8s presented The minut es The Chairman referred to the Treasury Board letter T.B.486770 which gave approval to the setting up of this Committee and expressed appreciation to Messrs. E.0. Landry and D.. atters for their assistance in connection with the Committee's submission e rea.suryboard. During the sumer months officials representing three manufacturers of electronic eqipment met with members of the Commit tee to discuss some aspects of the equipment afactured. These included: 2. orfieials from Burroughs who explained the operating princ iples of the B.101 at a meeting held at the Dominion Bureau of Statistics on June 22, 1955. 2. Officials of .C.A. who explained the operating principles of BIZMAC at a eeting beld at the Jackson Building on July 7, 1955. S.0fficials from IEM ho presented a short movie on "Direct line to decisions ", dealing with the type 650 and 700 series of machinesat a meeting held at the C.h.?. Hess on August 12, 1955. n referring to letters received since the first meeting,the Chairman pointed u that since they dealt with same of the topics includedon the agenda it might be CaairabLeto considerthen when the se topics were under discus sion.? Sent from the all new AOL app for Android From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 13 05:24:19 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 11:24:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cheap PDP-8 boards on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20211211182125.6B73B18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <691d79ba.7f9bc.17db3894b5b.Webtop.100@btinternet.com> Looks like the seller has also listed a Lisa CPU board. I imagine that will be of interest to many here From rumi_ml at rtfm.hu Mon Dec 13 10:16:21 2021 From: rumi_ml at rtfm.hu (Rumi Szabolcs) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:16:21 +0000 Subject: Content of www.blacksheepnetworks.com Message-ID: <20211213161621.524ace428958ef588cdb26f0@rtfm.hu> Hello, This site used to have a lot of very useful and rare information on Tru64 troubleshooting and Google still has the links to the articles but the content itself is inaccessible: http://www.blacksheepnetworks.com/security/resources/tru64/ Has anyone by any chance archived the content of this site while it was still alive? archive.org did not, unfortunately. Thank you! Kind regards, Sab From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Dec 13 10:32:13 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 17:32:13 +0100 Subject: Content of www.blacksheepnetworks.com In-Reply-To: <20211213161621.524ace428958ef588cdb26f0@rtfm.hu> References: <20211213161621.524ace428958ef588cdb26f0@rtfm.hu> Message-ID: Actually seems that google cached part of the 5010 pages, so maybe 50% or more can be still saved. Means the site is down since not too long -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rumi Szabolcs via cctalk Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 5:16 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Content of www.blacksheepnetworks.com Hello, This site used to have a lot of very useful and rare information on Tru64 troubleshooting and Google still has the links to the articles but the content itself is inaccessible: http://www.blacksheepnetworks.com/security/resources/tru64/ Has anyone by any chance archived the content of this site while it was still alive? archive.org did not, unfortunately. Thank you! Kind regards, Sab From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Dec 13 14:09:44 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:09:44 -0700 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/12/21 10:28 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I haven't used ARCnet since we used to use it for 4-player Doom > (especially since not everyone in the gaming group had Ethernet at > home yet and it was easy to make a passive 4-port ARCnet hub. I find this statement interesting for a couple of different reasons: 1) Paying Doom over ARCnet. -- I don't think I realized that ARCnet was standardized enough that normal networking applications would work over it. -- Naivety on my part. 2) "it was easy to make a passive 4-port ARCnet hub" ... I don't know how to respond to that with anything but curiosity and /many/ open ended questions. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 15:44:10 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:44:10 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 3:09 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/12/21 10:28 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > I haven't used ARCnet since we used to use it for 4-player Doom > > (especially since not everyone in the gaming group had Ethernet at > > home yet and it was easy to make a passive 4-port ARCnet hub. > > I find this statement interesting for a couple of different reasons: > > 1) Paying Doom over ARCnet. -- I don't think I realized that ARCnet > was standardized enough that normal networking applications would work > over it. -- Naivety on my part. The Doom application contained a network stack that would handle the higher layers. IIRC, you still had to load a packet driver shim, but perhaps not. It's been a loooong time since I've done it. But you definitely could play up to 4 players when each machine had an ARCnet card. Ethernet cards worked too but they cost a lot more at the time. > 2) "it was easy to make a passive 4-port ARCnet hub" ... I don't know > how to respond to that with anything but curiosity and /many/ open ended > questions. https://apenwarr.ca/arcnet/howto/cabling.html You just take 4 BNCs and 4 resistors. Tie all the grounds together (can use a metal bar or wire or whatever) and connect one resistor to each core and tie all 4 resistors together. In other words, ARCnet supports a Star topology that Ethernet does not. It's a token-passing scheme, not CSMA (collision detection). Cheers, -ethan > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 16:02:15 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:02:15 -0600 Subject: Comparing IBM PC and IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: https://youtu.be/zqsd2HU0ZuY Just uploaded this video, thought some of you guys might enjoy :) -Eric From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Mon Dec 13 16:06:13 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:06:13 -0600 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For my kids and their friends I used to set up several (up to? like 5) bare motherboards first with lantastic 2MB cards and then NE2000 10mB compatible cards and play Doom over IPX back in the 90's. On 12/13/2021 2:09 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 12/12/21 10:28 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> I haven't used ARCnet since we used to use it for 4-player Doom >> (especially since not everyone in the gaming group had Ethernet at >> home yet and it was easy to make a passive 4-port ARCnet hub. > > I find this statement interesting for a couple of different reasons: > > 1)? Paying Doom over ARCnet.? --? I don't think I realized that ARCnet > was standardized enough that normal networking applications would work > over it.? --? Naivety on my part. > > 2)? "it was easy to make a passive 4-port ARCnet hub" ... I don't know > how to respond to that with anything but curiosity and /many/ open > ended questions. > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 16:08:07 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 17:08:07 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 5:06 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > For my kids and their friends I used to set up several (up to like 5) > bare motherboards first with lantastic 2MB cards and then NE2000 10mB > compatible cards and play Doom over IPX back in the 90's. Yes. Thank you. IPX. That was the network layer. -ethan From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 16:19:38 2021 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 22:19:38 +0000 Subject: Comparing IBM PC and IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very enjoyable. I have heard the Displaywriter but one, I have not seen one in action and two I no idea that it could run MS-DOS or CP/M. Does anyone have any idea what the bios is like? I wonder if it could be emulated for preservation sake. Ray Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Moore via cctalk Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 5:02:15 PM To: Classic Computers Subject: Comparing IBM PC and IBM Displaywriter https://youtu.be/zqsd2HU0ZuY Just uploaded this video, thought some of you guys might enjoy :) -Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 13 16:29:04 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 14:29:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks via cctalk at "Dec 13, 21 05:08:07 pm" Message-ID: <202112132229.1BDMT4SD26279976@floodgap.com> > > For my kids and their friends I used to set up several (up to like 5) > > bare motherboards first with lantastic 2MB cards and then NE2000 10mB > > compatible cards and play Doom over IPX back in the 90's. > > Yes. Thank you. IPX. That was the network layer. Mac Doom even plays over AppleTalk. LocalTalk suffered a bit though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Dec 14 13:23:34 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 14:23:34 -0500 Subject: OT, assembly houses in the US Message-ID: <19a10091-3306-0363-6a94-25e6841a8c54@e-bbes.com> Hi all, where do you guys go for assembly of your boards, when you replace old stuff? Not too many places like THT anymore, and getting ridiculously expensive lately. Any recommendations? From lists at glitchwrks.com Tue Dec 14 13:34:53 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:34:53 +0000 Subject: OT, assembly houses in the US In-Reply-To: <19a10091-3306-0363-6a94-25e6841a8c54@e-bbes.com> References: <19a10091-3306-0363-6a94-25e6841a8c54@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: We do both THT and SMD in prototype and production quantities here at Glitch Works, LLC. We're located in central VA. You can email me off-list if interested. Thanks, Jonathan ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, December 14th, 2021 at 14:23, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > where do you guys go for assembly of your boards, when you replace old > > stuff? > > Not too many places like THT anymore, and getting ridiculously expensive > > lately. > > Any recommendations? From ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 11:25:24 2021 From: ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com (Joerg Hoppe) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 18:25:24 +0100 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans Message-ID: Full micro fiche scans of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source listings are now published at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/ The update to V4.1 is at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-EF71A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.1_SRC_LST_MCRF_UPD/ Not sure who needs to know. Perhaps they are useful for emulation crash analysis, or for educational purposes. You also see the highly optimizing BLISS32 compiler at work. regards, Joerg From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 14 19:00:27 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 18:00:27 -0700 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC compatible 8 or 16 bit Arcnet cards In-Reply-To: References: <1778368080.360661.1639344423780@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/21 2:44 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > The Doom application contained a network stack that would handle the > higher layers. IIRC, you still had to load a packet driver shim, > but perhaps not. It's been a loooong time since I've done it. I know that Doom was an IPX capable network game. It's more that I had mis-categorized ARCnet in my head as an atypical / non-standard network. I now know that I was incorrect in that. > But you definitely could play up to 4 players when each machine had > an ARCnet card. Ethernet cards worked too but they cost a lot more > at the time. > > https://apenwarr.ca/arcnet/howto/cabling.html > > You just take 4 BNCs and 4 resistors. Tie all the grounds together > (can use a metal bar or wire or whatever) and connect one resistor > to each core and tie all 4 resistors together. Interesting. Thank you for elaborating. > In other words, ARCnet supports a Star topology that Ethernet does not. > It's a token-passing scheme, not CSMA (collision detection). ACK -- Grant. . . . unix || die From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Dec 14 14:19:43 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:19:43 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ba01dfc-b3f5-4bb6-7654-4258c4bdb66b@e-bbes.com> On 2021-12-14 12:25, Joerg Hoppe via cctech wrote: > Full micro fiche scans of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source listings are now > published at > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/ > THANKS A LOT FOR DOING THIS !!! > > Not sure who needs to know. > Perhaps they are useful for emulation crash analysis, or for educational > purposes. > You also see the highly optimizing BLISS32 compiler at work. Spent already hours yesterday staring at the code ;-) Thanks again, I guess you spent some time on that ... From ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 14:33:13 2021 From: ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com (Joerg Hoppe) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 21:33:13 +0100 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans In-Reply-To: <5ba01dfc-b3f5-4bb6-7654-4258c4bdb66b@e-bbes.com> References: <5ba01dfc-b3f5-4bb6-7654-4258c4bdb66b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <04051d74-3a9a-6b04-7bd2-bc9194ec4053@gmail.com> Hi Emanuel, > >> Full micro fiche scans of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source listings are now >> published at >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/ >> > THANKS A LOT FOR DOING THIS !!! > >> >> Not sure who needs to know. >> Perhaps they are useful for emulation crash analysis, or for >> educational purposes. >> You also see the highly optimizing BLISS32 compiler at work. > > Spent already hours yesterday staring at the code ;-) Me too! Btw, the "Internals" documents in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vms/training/ train you to understand these sources. > > Thanks again, I guess you spent some time on that ... Oh yes, I did. best regards, Joerg From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 15 08:17:52 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 09:17:52 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03657634-76BE-4BDB-A1D3-BACDEACCDEBA@comcast.net> > On Dec 14, 2021, at 12:25 PM, Joerg Hoppe via cctech wrote: > > Full micro fiche scans of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source listings are now published at > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/ Did I miss it, or is the kernel missing? paul From ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 09:19:56 2021 From: ioerg.hoppe at gmail.com (Joerg Hoppe) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 16:19:56 +0100 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans In-Reply-To: <03657634-76BE-4BDB-A1D3-BACDEACCDEBA@comcast.net> References: <03657634-76BE-4BDB-A1D3-BACDEACCDEBA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <085ea142-265c-d7b6-a8bf-66ebd60530d4@gmail.com> Paul, > Full micro fiche scans of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source listings are now published at > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/ > Did I miss it, or is the kernel missing? I learned from http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vms/training/EY-00014-DP_VMS_Internals_and_Data_Structures_1984.pdf that they don't have a "kernel",? but an "executive".? From the Preface chapter: "The words "system" or "VMS system" are used to describe the entire software package that is a part of a VAX-11 system, including privileged processes, utilities, and other support software as well as the executive itself. The word "executive" refers to those parts of the VMS operating system? that reside in system virtual address space. The executive includes the contents of the file SYS.EXE, device drivers, and other code and data structures loaded at initialization time, including RMS and the system message file. " Joerg From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 15 09:27:31 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 10:27:31 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans In-Reply-To: <085ea142-265c-d7b6-a8bf-66ebd60530d4@gmail.com> References: <03657634-76BE-4BDB-A1D3-BACDEACCDEBA@comcast.net> <085ea142-265c-d7b6-a8bf-66ebd60530d4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <257AE156-DC27-49BC-90A8-2DA1E96A20D9@comcast.net> > On Dec 15, 2021, at 10:19 AM, Joerg Hoppe wrote: > > Paul, >> Full micro fiche scans of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source listings are now published at >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/ >> Did I miss it, or is the kernel missing? > > I learned from > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vms/training/EY-00014-DP_VMS_Internals_and_Data_Structures_1984.pdf > > that they don't have a "kernel", but an "executive". From the Preface chapter: > > "The words "system" or "VMS system" are used to describe the entire software package that is a part of a VAX-11 system, including privileged processes, utilities, and other support software as well as the executive itself. > The word "executive" refers to those parts of the VMS operating system that reside in system virtual address space. > The executive includes the contents of the file SYS.EXE, device drivers, and other code and data structures > loaded at initialization time, including RMS and the system message file. " Fair enough, though "kernel" has a specific meaning, the stuff that runs in kernel mode (as opposed to executive mode, as RMS does). What I meant is "where is the core OS". With the hints you gave I found the answer, it's in subdirectory 095__SYS. Thanks! paul From glg at grebus.com Wed Dec 15 17:25:33 2021 From: glg at grebus.com (Gary Grebus) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 18:25:33 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/14/21 12:25 PM, Joerg Hoppe wrote: > Full micro fiche scans of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source listings are now > published at > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/microfiche/vms-source-listings/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/AH-BT13A-SE__VAX-VMS_V4.0_SRC_LST_MCRF/ > Thanks for doing this! It's great fun to look at these. I spent many hours back in the day in front of the fiche reader... analyzing crash dumps and generally learning about how an operating system is really put together. Gary From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 17:21:12 2021 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:21:12 -0500 Subject: OT, assembly houses in the US In-Reply-To: References: <19a10091-3306-0363-6a94-25e6841a8c54@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I just used www.pcbassemblyexpress dot com to do a small assembly run for me. Online quoting was nice. Like all affordable fab/assembly brokers, their turnaround time was off by a week or so. Much better pricing than most places I saw! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > We do both THT and SMD in prototype and production quantities here at > Glitch Works, LLC. We're located in central VA. You can email me off-list > if interested. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Tuesday, December 14th, 2021 at 14:23, emanuel stiebler via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > where do you guys go for assembly of your boards, when you replace old > > > > stuff? > > > > Not too many places like THT anymore, and getting ridiculously expensive > > > > lately. > > > > Any recommendations? > From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 17 08:01:36 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:01:36 -0600 Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> References: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> On 12/12/2021 1:08 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > I just unpacked the rack with my TU56 DECtape drive and discovered that > the movers managed to break the takeup reels.? This, despite many layers > of foam padding, stretch film, and warning signs.? On the other hand, > this was the only item that suffered any damage at all.? Not too bad for > three moving van loads! > > Can anyone help me with an empty DECtape reel or two? > > Thanks, > Alan Frisbie Were they left on the drive during shipping? Anyway, I can probably find one lying around that I could spare. (Or, if you have a bunch of tapes, maybe sacrifice a scratch?) Location? JRJ From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Dec 17 08:44:29 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:44:29 -0600 Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> References: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> Message-ID: <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> I am also in need of emtpy reels.? I purchased a TU56 that had been taken apart to restore and the restoration had never been finished. The empty reels were not in the box of parts. Has anyone tried 3D printing these? On 12/17/2021 8:01 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 12/12/2021 1:08 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: >> I just unpacked the rack with my TU56 DECtape drive and discovered that >> the movers managed to break the takeup reels.? This, despite many layers >> of foam padding, stretch film, and warning signs.? On the other hand, >> this was the only item that suffered any damage at all.? Not too bad for >> three moving van loads! >> >> Can anyone help me with an empty DECtape reel or two? >> >> Thanks, >> Alan Frisbie > > Were they left on the drive during shipping? > > Anyway, I can probably find one lying around that I could spare. (Or, > if you have a bunch of tapes, maybe sacrifice a scratch?) > > Location? > > JRJ From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 09:07:14 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:07:14 -0500 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February Message-ID: I will be in Switzerland/Germany near Davos Feb 5-15 and I was curious what kinds of museums and sights were worth planning to see during this time of the year in that area? Is there an orchestra concert show season there? Any recommendations for resources for travelers that are not overly commercial, in English, would be appreciated. On the inside of an old painting of my great great great grandfather from around 1830 was a piece of paper with a note written by his granddaughter many years later about someone called "Count von Burlowe" (spelling?) about a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad Krautzma", but I believe she was way off spelling-wise. It's written in 19th century US cursive, hard to read. So I am interested in learning a bit about my heritage too. Thanks BIll Degnan Landenberg, PA USA From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 17 09:13:25 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:13:25 -0500 Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> References: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <327F47A3-B998-4876-933C-A2E896AC1922@comcast.net> > On Dec 17, 2021, at 9:44 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I am also in need of emtpy reels. I purchased a TU56 that had been taken apart to restore and the restoration had never been finished. The empty reels were not in the box of parts. > > Has anyone tried 3D printing these? Interesting idea. A while ago someone posted a picture of what looks like a "go/no-go" gauge for DECtape reels. It is marked with the dimensions of the two sides: 2.504-2.505 inches for the "no-go" end, 2.494-2.495 for the "go" end. So that tells us the hole diameter is 2.500 +/- .004. Can 3D printing deliver that sort of tolerance (with hobbyist-price machines)? paul From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Dec 17 09:27:26 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:27:26 -0600 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77e1fade-39d9-6ccc-72cd-cae3f39f1bff@12bitsbest.com> If you are in Zurich you might want to go to Lucerne.? It's about 30 minutes away from Zurich and is a beautiful city. Also, if you are in Zurich you might want to go to Confiserie Spr?ngli on Bahnhofstrasse (https://www.spruengli.ch/en/). It is a well known restaurant in Zurich. On 12/17/2021 9:07 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I will be in Switzerland/Germany near Davos Feb 5-15 and I was curious what > kinds of museums and sights were worth planning to see during this time of > the year in that area? Is there an orchestra concert show season there? > Any recommendations for resources for travelers that are not overly > commercial, in English, would be appreciated. > > On the inside of an old painting of my great great great grandfather from > around 1830 was a piece of paper with a note written by his granddaughter > many years later about someone called "Count von Burlowe" (spelling?) about > a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad > Krautzma", but I believe she was way off spelling-wise. It's written in > 19th century US cursive, hard to read. So I am interested in learning a > bit about my heritage too. > > Thanks > BIll Degnan > Landenberg, PA USA From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Fri Dec 17 09:52:38 2021 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:52:38 +0100 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33635be9-a0b0-9d88-6bf5-71aeb89b2aa5@ljw.me.uk> On 17/12/21 4:07 pm, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I will be in Switzerland/Germany near Davos Feb 5-15 and I was curious what > kinds of museums and sights were worth planning to see during this time of > the year in that area? Is there an orchestra concert show season there? > Any recommendations for resources for travelers that are not overly > commercial, in English, would be appreciated. > > On the inside of an old painting of my great great great grandfather from > around 1830 was a piece of paper with a note written by his granddaughter > many years later about someone called "Count von Burlowe" (spelling?) about > a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad > Krautzma", but I believe she was way off spelling-wise. It's written in > 19th century US cursive, hard to read. So I am interested in learning a > bit about my heritage too. > > Thanks > BIll Degnan > Landenberg, PA USA Things are a bit restricted here, and they've just announced further restrictions on museums, restaurants and other public places (you will probably need a vaccination certificate: https://covidcertificate-form.admin.ch/foreign ) That apart, you can look at https://www.myswitzerland.com/en-ch/ though now that's rather oriented towards winter activities. Concerts: https://www.tonhalle-orchester.ch/en/ https://www.opernhaus.ch/en/spielplan/calendar/?filter=3&month=2-2022 Not sure what sort of museums you are after, there are no computer ones in Zurich that I know of but some in other places (it's quick to get around by train.) Lots of mountains to visit, either via cable-car or train (Rigi, Pilatus, Jungfraujoch, though Santis may be handier for Davos.) If you want an idea of travel times you can use https://www.sbb.ch/en/home.html which covers trains, ferries and buses (and some cable-cars.) I can't help with "Bad Krautzma" or variations thereof. I would guess "von Burlowe" is "von B?low". I'm in central Zurich, so more than happy to rendezvous sometime. LJW -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 17 10:05:52 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 17:05:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Bill Degnan wrote: > a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad > Krautzma", but I believe she was way off spelling-wise. It's written in "Bad Kreuznach" comes to my mind, no idea if this could be the place, though. Christian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 10:23:40 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 11:23:40 -0500 Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: <327F47A3-B998-4876-933C-A2E896AC1922@comcast.net> References: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> <327F47A3-B998-4876-933C-A2E896AC1922@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:13 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Has anyone tried 3D printing these? > > Interesting idea. A while ago someone posted a picture of what looks like a "go/no-go" gauge for DECtape reels. It is marked with the dimensions of the two sides: 2.504-2.505 inches for the "no-go" end, 2.494-2.495 for the "go" end. So that tells us the hole diameter is 2.500 +/- .004. Can 3D printing deliver that sort of tolerance (with hobbyist-price machines)? What you can do is print with extra shells (2 layers is one default, depending on your slicer), then print using ABS, which will shrink 1-2% (so you often print at 100.1% and caliper for dimensionally-critical items) _then_ since it's ABS, you can vapor-smooth with acetone and remove ridges and improve top layer bonding, *then* turn on a lathe to spec - but trying to remove less than half a filament diameter. I think that technique would work. I wouldn't just print and go unless I at least smoothed the tape path to prevent adding wrinkles. -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Dec 17 10:39:11 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:39:11 +0000 Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> References: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: One of my future projects is building a 60% scaled TU56 to go with the PiDP11/70 ... This might be of interest on Thingiverse: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4635976 Henk, PA8PDP Van: Mike Katz via cctalk Verzonden: vrijdag 17 december 2021 15:44 Aan: Jay Jaeger; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed I am also in need of emtpy reels. I purchased a TU56 that had been taken apart to restore and the restoration had never been finished. The empty reels were not in the box of parts. Has anyone tried 3D printing these? On 12/17/2021 8:01 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 12/12/2021 1:08 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: >> I just unpacked the rack with my TU56 DECtape drive and discovered that >> the movers managed to break the takeup reels. This, despite many layers >> of foam padding, stretch film, and warning signs. On the other hand, >> this was the only item that suffered any damage at all. Not too bad for >> three moving van loads! >> >> Can anyone help me with an empty DECtape reel or two? >> >> Thanks, >> Alan Frisbie > > Were they left on the drive during shipping? > > Anyway, I can probably find one lying around that I could spare. (Or, > if you have a bunch of tapes, maybe sacrifice a scratch?) > > Location? > > JRJ From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 11:25:41 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 12:25:41 -0500 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 11:06 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Bill Degnan wrote: > > a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad > > Krautzma", but I believe she was way off spelling-wise. It's written in > > "Bad Kreuznach" comes to my mind, no idea if this could be the place, > though. > > Christian, Thank you, it seems like the person was writing down from a distant memory and lost sharpness about some of the proper names/nouns. The paper was written in the 1890s by a very old woman who remembers her father talking about his father from Germany. I always wondered what the real story was. My ancestor's name was Frederich Maurer. The only Europeans I communicate with are on the cctech list and other vintage computing circles. There used to be a Vintage Computer Festival Munich I believe in the late 1990s. Hans Franke I think was the name of the guy who ran it. Bill From bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com Fri Dec 17 11:40:42 2021 From: bitwiz at 12bitsbest.com (Mike Katz) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 11:40:42 -0600 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3881fe1c-bf76-966e-bddd-73e31571766c@12bitsbest.com> You might wan to go to vcfed.org and there you might be able to see what vintage computer museums are available in Europe. On 12/17/2021 11:25 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 11:06 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Bill Degnan wrote: >>> a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad >>> Krautzma", but I believe she was way off spelling-wise. It's written in >> "Bad Kreuznach" comes to my mind, no idea if this could be the place, >> though. >> >> > Christian, > Thank you, it seems like the person was writing down from a distant memory > and lost sharpness about some of the proper names/nouns. The paper was > written in the 1890s by a very old woman who remembers her father talking > about his father from Germany. I always wondered what the real story was. > My ancestor's name was Frederich Maurer. The only Europeans I > communicate with are on the cctech list and other vintage computing circles. > > There used to be a Vintage Computer Festival Munich I believe in the late > 1990s. Hans Franke I think was the name of the guy who ran it. > Bill From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 17 14:19:04 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 12:19:04 -0800 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 2021-12-17 at 10:07 -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > around 1830 was a piece of paper with a note written by his > granddaughter > many years later about someone called "Count von Burlowe" (spelling?) > about > a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad > Krautzma", There was a ?von B?low family of 19th-century German (not Swiss) diplomats and statesmen, from Hamburg. There is a health spa at Bad Kreuznach, about 40 km southwest of Mainz (about 60 km southwest of Frankfurt). My paternal ancestors are from a village called Planig, now a suburb of Bad Kreuznach, and a nearby village called Pfaffen-Schwabenheim. If you want genealogy information, contact Westdeutsche Gessenschaft f?r Familienforschung (West German Genealogy Society). I can put you into contact with two members. Van Snyder From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 14:24:11 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:24:11 -0500 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 3:19 PM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 2021-12-17 at 10:07 -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > around 1830 was a piece of paper with a note written by his > > granddaughter > > many years later about someone called "Count von Burlowe" (spelling?) > > about > > a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad > > Krautzma", > > There was a von B?low family of 19th-century German (not Swiss) > diplomats and statesmen, from Hamburg. > > There is a health spa at Bad Kreuznach, about 40 km southwest of Mainz > (about 60 km southwest of Frankfurt). > > My paternal ancestors are from a village called Planig, now a suburb of > Bad Kreuznach, and a nearby village called Pfaffen-Schwabenheim. If you > want genealogy information, contact Westdeutsche Gessenschaft f?r > Familienforschung (West German Genealogy Society). I can put you into > contact with two members. > > Van Snyder > > Thank you. I will hold onto your info. b From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Fri Dec 17 14:38:10 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos.dreesen) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:38:10 +0100 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hans Franke is still running the VCF Munich. Check www.vcfe,orgSwitzerlands premier computermuseum is www.enter.ch, very conviniently located at Solothurn railway station. Solothurn itself is worthwhile.Jos -------- Original message --------From: Bill Degnan via cctalk Date: 17/12/2021 21:24 (GMT+01:00) To: Van Snyder , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 3:19 PM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:> On Fri, 2021-12-17 at 10:07 -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:>> > around 1830 was a piece of paper with a note written by his> > granddaughter> > many years later about someone called "Count von Burlowe" (spelling?)> > about> > a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad> > Krautzma",>> There was a? von B?low family of 19th-century German (not Swiss)> diplomats and statesmen, from Hamburg.>> There is a health spa at Bad Kreuznach, about 40 km southwest of Mainz> (about 60 km southwest of Frankfurt).>> My paternal ancestors are from a village called Planig, now a suburb of> Bad Kreuznach, and a nearby village called Pfaffen-Schwabenheim. If you> want genealogy information, contact Westdeutsche Gessenschaft f?r> Familienforschung (West German Genealogy Society). I can put you into> contact with two members.>> Van Snyder>>Thank you.? I will hold onto your info.b From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 17:13:48 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 23:13:48 -0000 Subject: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016a01d7f39b$bfc35910$3f4a0b30$@gmail.com> Bill, You should find everything is in English as well as the local languages. My favourite place to visit is https://www.verkehrshaus.ch/en/footer-en/menu-quicklinks/plan-a-visit/directions.html which is about an hour on the train from Zurich. In Zurich there is a Tram Museum https://www.tram-museum.ch/en/ small but interesting.... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via > cctalk > Sent: 17 December 2021 15:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February > > I will be in Switzerland/Germany near Davos Feb 5-15 and I was curious what > kinds of museums and sights were worth planning to see during this time of > the year in that area? Is there an orchestra concert show season there? > Any recommendations for resources for travelers that are not overly > commercial, in English, would be appreciated. > > On the inside of an old painting of my great great great grandfather from > around 1830 was a piece of paper with a note written by his granddaughter > many years later about someone called "Count von Burlowe" (spelling?) > about a partnership to found or make commercial a health resort called "Bad > Krautzma", but I believe she was way off spelling-wise. It's written in 19th > century US cursive, hard to read. So I am interested in learning a bit about > my heritage too. > > Thanks > BIll Degnan > Landenberg, PA USA From steven at malikoff.com Fri Dec 17 20:21:54 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:21:54 +1000 Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> References: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <9eca160ca2d34a67fda79b882b14ceb3.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Mike said > I am also in need of emtpy reels.? I purchased a TU56 that had been > taken apart to restore and the restoration had never been finished. The > empty reels were not in the box of parts. > > Has anyone tried 3D printing these? I haven't tried printing a TU56 one as I don't have that peripheral, but have done in OpenSCAD a paper tape spool where the sides twist-lock together. If I had one, or measurements, I'd script it up. Steve. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 17 13:31:57 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 11:31:57 -0800 Subject: Two power supplies References: <50b28cfbc2105b6b6cb6193b91b775a36b98569b.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <50b28cfbc2105b6b6cb6193b91b775a36b98569b.camel@sbcglobal.net> I have two power supplies that I no longer need. 1. Power One model SPM5A2M6G1K: 115 VAC 30 A or 230 VAC 15 A 50-60 Hz input, outputs 48 V 5 A, 5 V 10 A, 2 x 12 V 10 A, 5 V 150 A. ? ? 13" x 5" x 8 ", 17 lb 2. Lambda LM 124 FM lab supply: 115 VAC 50-60 Hz input, outputs 0-40 V, 0-1.5 A ? ? 17" x 4" x 5", 13 lb Yours if you send me a PDF of a shipping label. I can send photos (but they're too big to fit in classiccmp.org mailings). Local pickup OK. Van Snyder La Crescenta, CA From sieler at allegro.com Sat Dec 18 17:27:16 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 15:27:16 -0800 Subject: FS: HP 3000s (928LX) for sale in Texas Message-ID: Since they're vintage... A friend is selling two HP 3000/928LX computers. I don't know what he wants for them. For people interested in the HP 3000, this would be a nice buy. Size-wise, they're between a PC and a 2-drawer file cabinet in size. They'll be network capable (may require a transceiver, but likely comes with, and they're generally about $10 otherwise). The following describes one, but there are two... ---- 1. HPe3000 928LX. 2. 128mb main memory. 3. (2) 4gb internal disk drives. 4. DDS-2 internal tape drive.(two in one system and one in the other) 5. MPE/iX 7.5 Operating System with 8 user license. 6. System Consoles with keyboards. 7. SE SCSI Interface Card 8. External Disk drive mini cabinet with SCSI drives Bonus: Backup and systems DDS tapes, Manuals, extra 4gb SCSI disks, and Misc. Documentation Lots of software. Both systems were operating when shut down recently. Buy as is with no guarantee.. Make an offer. Buyer to arrange packing and shipping. Location: At my home office in Carrollton, TX Contact Paul Edwards, pedwards at gte.net From leec2124 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 19:29:57 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:29:57 -0800 Subject: HP 3000s (928LX) for sale in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stan - this is a *nice* setup. Especially since (I believe) the 9x8 boxes have a replaceable TOD/TOY clock battery, verses the 9x7 series which had *hardwired non-replaceable* clock batteries. Do you know what software they come with, any languages? Lee Courtney On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 3:27 PM Stan Sieler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Since they're vintage... > > A friend is selling two HP 3000/928LX computers. I don't know what he > wants for them. For people interested in the HP 3000, this would be a nice > buy. > > Size-wise, they're between a PC and a 2-drawer file cabinet in size. > They'll be network capable (may require a transceiver, but likely comes > with, and they're generally about $10 otherwise). > > The following describes one, but there are two... > > ---- > 1. HPe3000 928LX. > > 2. 128mb main memory. > > 3. (2) 4gb internal disk drives. > > 4. DDS-2 internal tape drive.(two in one system and one in the other) > > 5. MPE/iX 7.5 Operating System with 8 user license. > > 6. System Consoles with keyboards. > > 7. SE SCSI Interface Card > > 8. External Disk drive mini cabinet with SCSI drives > > Bonus: Backup and systems DDS tapes, Manuals, extra 4gb SCSI disks, and > Misc. Documentation > > Lots of software. > > Both systems were operating when shut down recently. Buy as is with no > guarantee.. > > Make an offer. Buyer to arrange packing and shipping. > > Location: At my home office in Carrollton, TX > > Contact Paul Edwards, pedwards at gte.net > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From jmdzied at verizon.net Sat Dec 18 19:36:38 2021 From: jmdzied at verizon.net (Joseph Dziedzic) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 20:36:38 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 A900 ("Magic") Questions References: <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F@verizon.net> Are you still in need of any HP1000 RTE equipment? I have a lot of boards, chassis?, tape drives, etc. If not and if you know of someone who would be interested in this equipment please let me know?Kind Regards?Joe Sent from my iPhone From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 19 02:35:25 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:35:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 1000 A900 ("Magic") Questions In-Reply-To: <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F@verizon.net> References: <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F.ref@verizon.net> <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F@verizon.net> Message-ID: <694267172.1955359.1639902925854@mail.yahoo.com> SMECC? NEEDS? TO? BEG? BUY? OR? TRADE? ?FOR? SCSSI? ? HP? TAPE? REEL? TO REEL? DRIVES? HELP?? ED# In a message dated 12/19/2021 12:46:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? Are you still in need of any HP1000 RTE equipment? I have a lot of boards, chassis?, tape drives, etc. If not and if you know of someone who would be interested in this equipment please let me know?Kind Regards?Joe?Sent from my iPhone From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 10:08:21 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:08:21 -0800 Subject: HP 1000 A900 ("Magic") Questions In-Reply-To: <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F@verizon.net> References: <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F.ref@verizon.net> <47A59347-D537-4005-BCC4-8AF8F28FBE7F@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 11:46 PM Joseph Dziedzic via cctalk wrote: > > Are you still in need of any HP1000 RTE equipment? I have a lot of boards, chassis?, tape drives, etc. If not and if you know of someone who would be interested in this equipment please let me know?Kind Regards?Joe > Where are you located? While shipping boards might not be expensive, shipping chassis and tape drives could be expensive depending on location. Do you have a list of what equipment you have? From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Dec 19 12:52:33 2021 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 19:52:33 +0100 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: <77e1fade-39d9-6ccc-72cd-cae3f39f1bff@12bitsbest.com> References: <77e1fade-39d9-6ccc-72cd-cae3f39f1bff@12bitsbest.com> Message-ID: <20211219185233.3meii2qsvfvvnyp4@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2021-12-17 09:27:26 -0600, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > If you are in Zurich you might want to go to Lucerne.? It's about 30 minutes > away from Zurich and is a beautiful city. > > Also, if you are in Zurich you might want to go to Confiserie Spr?ngli on > Bahnhofstrasse (https://www.spruengli.ch/en/). > It is a well known restaurant in Zurich. But be warned to have a few coins with you. ;-) Bahnhofstra?e is _the_ street in Zurich, kind of expensive. Maybe follow it until you reach Lake Zurich and have a walk through the botanical garden (on the right hand side.) MfG, JBG -- From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 19 13:56:04 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 11:56:04 -0800 Subject: OT: Traveling to Zurich in February In-Reply-To: <20211219185233.3meii2qsvfvvnyp4@lug-owl.de> References: <77e1fade-39d9-6ccc-72cd-cae3f39f1bff@12bitsbest.com> <20211219185233.3meii2qsvfvvnyp4@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 2021-12-19 at 19:52 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 2021-12-17 09:27:26 -0600, Mike Katz via cctalk > wrote: > > If you are in Zurich you might want to go to Lucerne.? It's about > > 30 minutes > > away from Zurich and is a beautiful city. > > > > Also, if you are in Zurich you might want to go to Confiserie > > Spr?ngli on > > Bahnhofstrasse (https://www.spruengli.ch/en/). > > It is a well known restaurant in Zurich. > > But be warned to have a few coins with you. ;-)? Bahnhofstra?e is > _the_ street in Zurich, kind of expensive. Maybe follow it until you > reach Lake Zurich and have a walk through the botanical garden (on > the > right hand side.) Or if it's summertime, have lunch on the Lunchschiff (if it's still running -- last time I was in Zurich was twenty years ago). > > MfG, JBG > From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 19 15:22:16 2021 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 22:22:16 +0100 Subject: SMC FD37C65B and revision C Errata sheets? Message-ID: Hi all, the german Engeneer Tillman Reh has build an Zilog Z280 SBC card with Eurocard Bus connector: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/zilog/z280/index.html The Software is open and Tillman allows the PCB to be reproduced from his original Gerber files on request. Unfortunately some parts for those cards are almost unobtanium in the meantime, the Zigzag DRAMs, the COM8117 Uart, the LT1134 Driver chip and also the SMC FD37C65CLJP FDC are difficult to source. I have two such cards and I got all the necessary parts, but I have friends that are also interested in such a card to run CP/M 3 or UZI280 on that Z280 (The Z800!) 16 Bit CPU. There are many other FDCs that should be compatible, the WD37C65 for example. This was used in many PC related Floppy controllers..but they are in fact not compatible. The use of the SMC37C65CLJ P seems to be necesary for this board, for reasons that are unclear. While copying data to the disc there happens a timeout on the earlier FDC varaints, I have read somewhere that reading the status register gives unexpected results, they have tried to fix this already in the 90ies by inserting some delays, w/o success. Has someone here Errata Sheets for those SMC FD37C65B (not working) and FDC37C65C (working) variants of that FDC Chip, so that one can see what they may have changed between the releases? Here are some part of the BIOS: ; I/O-Page mu~ bereits auf BOARDP gesetzt sein. Ver{ndert ABHL. FdcCom:: if loader ld hl,CList else ld hl,(CmdAdr) ; Zeiger auf Befehlsliste endif FdcCo1::in a,(FdcSta) ; (Einsprung mit Zeiger in HL) rla jr nc,FdcCo1 ; warten bis FDC-RQM (Request for Master) rla jr c,FdcErr ; bei falscher Datenrichtung: DIO-Error nop nop nop ld a,(hl) out (FdcDat),a ; Befehls/Datenbyte an FDC ausgeben inc hl ; Zeiger auf naechstes Byte djnz FdcCo1 ; alle Befehlsbytes ausgeben ret ; DIO-Error (Datenrichtungsfehler im FDC) : Stoppen des Systems ;*** evtl. Fehler korrigieren und weiterarbeiten? ; (Ist Fehler ueberhaupt korrigierbar?) FdcErr: ld hl,DioMsg call PMsg ; "DIO-Error" ausgeben di halt ; sicherheitshalber nicht weiter arbeiten It seems that the FDC Status register requests a data transfer in the wrong direction on the B-Release Chips... It is this "DIO-Error" that happens after a few write operations, but formating the disk is possible. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From compoobah at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 09:09:57 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 07:09:57 -0800 Subject: VAX/VMS 4.0 source listings scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e73d383aadb02beb6465abaaa193926cf042fc3.camel@gmail.com> On Wed, 2021-12-15 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Not sure who needs to know. > Perhaps they are useful for emulation crash analysis, or for > educational > purposes. > You also see the highly optimizing BLISS32 compiler at work. First thing that popped into my mind was "fix the huge DCL security hole finally for VAX." I don't think it has been done yet. Be a lot of reading after OCR though, too bad it wasn't text files. Also I have no clue how to program BLISS32 or even MACRO-32, so mostly a pipe dream. From cc at alderson.users.panix.com Mon Dec 20 12:11:24 2021 From: cc at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 13:11:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! Message-ID: <4JHnhr4yPxzfYm@panix5.panix.com> ...and a joyful Winter Solstice Festivalof your choosing to you all! Rich From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 20:32:30 2021 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 02:32:30 +0000 Subject: tamayatech let down Message-ID: I think I should pass on my experience as a warning to others. I googled around for a particular PDP-11 board I needed and tamayatech.com was a hit, with "buy now" option and condition: refurbished. Seemed convincing and the price was in the sane ballpark. So I bought it, paid through their ecommerce routine, etc. Sent a mail thanking them and asking if it would be despatched soon as I had work time off in the coming week.. No reply. Waited a week and telephoned their phone number from the purchase confirmation email. No answer. Left message. Several (well over ten) repeated email and phone contact attempts through the last months (this began early November) to no avail. There has been absolutely no response. So my conclusion: it looks as though they took my credit card and never shipped it, then just ignored me. I hope the fellow's okay but feel quite thoroughly ripped off. So 'buyer' beware. Interestingly their SEO is rather well maintained and punching DEC part numbers into Google, etc. often results in a hit to their site. So they're at least keeping that part of the business updated. Anybody else with similar experience? Any way to rectify the situation? thx jake From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 20:48:33 2021 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 21:48:33 -0500 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can always call the credit card company and dispute the charge. -- Anders On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 9:33 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think I should pass on my experience as a warning to others. > > I googled around for a particular PDP-11 board I needed and tamayatech.com > was a hit, with "buy now" option and condition: refurbished. Seemed > convincing and the price was in the sane ballpark. So I bought it, paid > through their ecommerce routine, etc. > > Sent a mail thanking them and asking if it would be despatched soon as I > had work time off in the coming week.. No reply. > > Waited a week and telephoned their phone number from the purchase > confirmation email. No answer. Left message. > > Several (well over ten) repeated email and phone contact attempts through > the last months (this began early November) to no avail. There has been > absolutely no response. So my conclusion: it looks as though they took my > credit card and never shipped it, then just ignored me. I hope the fellow's > okay but feel quite thoroughly ripped off. > > So 'buyer' beware. > > Interestingly their SEO is rather well maintained and punching DEC part > numbers into Google, etc. often results in a hit to their site. So they're > at least keeping that part of the business updated. > > Anybody else with similar experience? Any way to rectify the situation? > > thx > jake > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 21 03:08:05 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 10:08:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed In-Reply-To: <327F47A3-B998-4876-933C-A2E896AC1922@comcast.net> References: <774bb92c-2ac5-1779-83e4-436099658ef1@flying-disk.com> <5350020b-b7bc-245f-bbbd-902acf757e4e@charter.net> <378fbbb1-cd99-c8c4-9055-c40f84d75fd4@12bitsbest.com> <327F47A3-B998-4876-933C-A2E896AC1922@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Paul Koning wrote: > Interesting idea. A while ago someone posted a picture of what looks > like a "go/no-go" gauge for DECtape reels. It is marked with the > dimensions of the two sides: 2.504-2.505 inches for the "no-go" end, > 2.494-2.495 for the "go" end. So that tells us the hole diameter is > 2.500 +/- .004. Can 3D printing deliver that sort of tolerance (with > hobbyist-price machines)? That's huge four milli-inches, that's about 100?m. Hobbyist machines usually have a Z (layer) resolution of at least 100?m and a position accuracy of about 20?m. The specifications of my Adventurer 3 say 50-400?m Z resolution, 11?m X/Y accuracy and 2.5?m Z accuracy. For a spool it's the X/Y accuracy that matters (and the material of course). Christian From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Dec 21 07:27:44 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 08:27:44 -0500 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/20/21 9:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > > Interestingly their SEO is rather well maintained and punching DEC part > numbers into Google, etc. often results in a hit to their site. So they're > at least keeping that part of the business updated. That shouldn't be taken as meaning anything. If I search for anything using google I get hits from ebay claiming they have it to sell. I have had the same experience in the past with some of the better known DEC resellers. Search for anything using google and they come up in the results as having them for sale. A search then on their own site returns nothing. bill From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 21 11:50:38 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 09:50:38 -0800 Subject: Samsung Ubigate iBG-1000 router Message-ID: <069b3633-1de0-c4a1-dad7-940815a7bfce@floodgap.com> Well, DSL Extreme is getting out of the T1 business, leaving me high and dry (they've really gone to hell since GTT bought them out) since they don't offer a static IP option on any of their lines anymore. I'll be working around that problem for the next couple months while we move ... Anyway, I have a spare Ubigate iBG-1000 T1 router here set up by the tech, but no password to access it. It appears to be an embedded PowerPC system, around 603 level. I have some possible reset instructions and can access its serial console, but was wondering if anyone out there has the administration manual for it. It might be fun to repurpose it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- PowerPC inside! ------------------------------------------------------------ From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Dec 21 13:52:00 2021 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:52:00 +1100 Subject: WTB IBM Keyboard Message-ID: <15dd01d7f6a4$38ab0340$aa0109c0$@internode.on.net> Hi folks - I'm looking for a keyboard for my IBM 3197 Model D Twinax terminal. (My location - Victoria Australia) Thank you!! Kevin Parker From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 21 13:54:08 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:54:08 -0500 Subject: WTB IBM Keyboard In-Reply-To: <15dd01d7f6a4$38ab0340$aa0109c0$@internode.on.net> References: <15dd01d7f6a4$38ab0340$aa0109c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: I work at and IBM Data Center and there were a lot of spare keyboards in the back please direct message me and I can get you an exact model number of the keyboards I have on hands and a quote on the shipping cost On Tue, Dec 21, 2021, 2:52 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks - I'm looking for a keyboard for my IBM 3197 Model D Twinax > terminal. > > (My location - Victoria Australia) > > Thank you!! > > > Kevin Parker > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 22 09:59:07 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:59:07 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide Message-ID: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It is not on Manx and not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number is apparently EK-RF30D-SV. Thanks Rob From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Wed Dec 22 14:53:50 2021 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:53:50 -0800 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rob Jarratt wrote: > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It is not on Manx > and not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number is > apparently EK-RF30D-SV. If anyone finds one, I would greatly appreciate a copy also. Thanks, Alan Frisbie From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 23 03:45:06 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:45:06 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params PARAMS> status config Configuration: Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 Electronics module name is EN94019334 Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) Last known unit failure code 300B(X) In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It is not on Manx and > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number is > apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 23 11:46:26 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 17:46:26 -0000 Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide In-Reply-To: <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d7f74c$da363600$8ea2a200$@ntlworld.com> <00b201d7f7e1$c478eac0$4d6ac040$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00f501d7f825$026e2410$074a6c30$@ntlworld.com> I have tried three different RF30 disks, two of them from one source and one from a completely different source, so completely different histories. They all give me the same diagnostic error code, 0x300B, which seems to be too much of a coincidence, so I think it may be something in my configuration. I am using a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655 with KFQSA). When I power on, the fault light comes on and then goes out after a while. This I believe is normal behaviour. However, as soon as I try to access the disk (e.g. SHOW DEVICES in the console firmware) the fault light come on and when I boot to VMS (from a different disk), VMS can't see the drive. I thought it might be some kind of DSSI ID conflict because I have an RF72 in the machine at ID 0. Removing the RF72 does not change the behaviour. Installing an ID=0 plug on the RF30 does not change the behaviour. I set the DIP switches on the RF30s to have an ID=1 and still it doesn't work and PARAMS reports UNITNUM=0. I followed this page http://mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/dssi-plug.html but it didn't work: PARAMS> sho /mscp Parameter Current Default Type Radix --------- ---------------- ---------------- -------- ----- MSCPNVR 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 2020202020202020 String Hex RO UNITID 1502401193918703 0000000000000 Quadword Hex RO ALLCLASS 0 0 Byte Dec B MEDIAID 2264601E 2264601E Longword Hex RO U UNITNUM 0 0 Word Dec U FIVEDIME 1 1 Boolean 0/1 B FORCEUNI 1 1 Boolean 0/1 U FORCECID 1 1 Boolean 0/1 RO CNT_TMO 60 60 Word Dec RO PARAMS> set unitnum 1 PARAMS> set forceuni 0 PARAMS> write Failed to acquire unit, cannot WRITE Am I doing something wrong? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 23 December 2021 09:45 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > I wonder if anyone knows what diagnostic code 300B means? > > >>>set host/dup/uqssp/disk 2 params > PARAMS> status config > > Configuration: > Node DIA0 is an RF30 controller > Software RFX V103 built on 5-MAY-1989 13:18:42 > Electronics module name is EN94019334 > Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X) > Last known unit failure code 300B(X) > In 60233 power-on hours, power has cycled 189 times > System time is 5-MAY-1989 13:19:46 > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > via cctalk > > Sent: 22 December 2021 15:59 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: DEC RF30 Integrated Storage Element Service Guide > > > > I am looking for the service guide for the RF30 DSSI disk. It is not > > on > Manx and > > not on BitSavers. Does anyone know of a copy? The part number is > > apparently EK-RF30D-SV. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Thu Dec 23 22:43:08 2021 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 20:43:08 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and supported by two gas struts, one on each side. Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is heavy! Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? Thanks, Alan Frisbie From steven at malikoff.com Fri Dec 24 04:55:59 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 20:55:59 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> References: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <21724106ee275fd5f4446801d91bd7b8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Alan asked > I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. > It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and > supported by two gas struts, one on each side. > > Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have > failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is > heavy! > > Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? No idea about original but if aftermarket is ok: ebay.com 69,448 results for gas strut Results could surely be narrowed down if dimensions provided. Also for a given size they come in different levels of compression force required. I have replaced a few here and there, and also had them re-gassed by a mobile service although that did not really last a long time. Steve From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Dec 24 13:29:13 2021 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 11:29:13 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: <21724106ee275fd5f4446801d91bd7b8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> <21724106ee275fd5f4446801d91bd7b8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <46BF43C7-2E11-4A9E-A108-2A8E06847F05@nf6x.net> Like Steve, I don't know about the original application. My own 11/44 project pile has the slide out and rotate style of slides, to the extent that it has any slides at all. When I need gas struts and cannot identify a source for exact original replacements, I usually look at McMaster-Carr first: https://www.mcmaster.com/gas-struts/ -- Mark J. Blair Blog: https://www.nf6x.net Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR Twitter: @nf6x From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 24 13:58:43 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 11:58:43 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> References: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <7fdbc1a5-32a4-63cc-e00b-ca706c37fef9@jwsss.com> I have the same system cabinet, but have not looked at it in detail.? I think from some of the replies, they are thinking about the H960 tall cabinets and systems that are pulled out, then rotate on the slides. This I think is? like the hood of a car, then the system tilts up, as the cabinet isn't that tall that you can't work on it on top. As to sources, either automotive sources and match the fit, or a supplier like McMaster Carr.? I don't think any NOS on these would be any better than the ones? you have that rotted out. I only just got the 11/44 and didn't poke at it yet, just moved it from the original owner's storage to mine. I hope it to be one of my first 'big' projects after some PDP8s are tackled. thanks JIm On 12/23/2021 8:43 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. > It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and > supported by two gas struts, one on each side. > > Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have > failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is > heavy! > > Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? > > Thanks, > Alan Frisbie > From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Dec 24 14:16:04 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 12:16:04 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: <7fdbc1a5-32a4-63cc-e00b-ca706c37fef9@jwsss.com> References: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> <7fdbc1a5-32a4-63cc-e00b-ca706c37fef9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Out of curiosity, is there a manual for this style PDP-11/44 online? This is the style I have, but I?m pretty sure my manual is for the pull-out enclosure. A manual on this enclosure might give some idea on the gas struts. Zane > On Dec 24, 2021, at 11:58 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > I have the same system cabinet, but have not looked at it in detail. I think from some of the replies, they are thinking about the H960 tall cabinets and systems that are pulled out, then rotate on the slides. > > This I think is like the hood of a car, then the system tilts up, as the cabinet isn't that tall that you can't work on it on top. > > As to sources, either automotive sources and match the fit, or a supplier like McMaster Carr. I don't think any NOS on these would be any better than the ones you have that rotted out. > > I only just got the 11/44 and didn't poke at it yet, just moved it from the original owner's storage to mine. > > I hope it to be one of my first 'big' projects after some PDP8s are tackled. > > thanks > JIm > > On 12/23/2021 8:43 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: >> I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. >> It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and >> supported by two gas struts, one on each side. >> >> Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have >> failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is >> heavy! >> >> Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? >> >> Thanks, >> Alan Frisbie >> > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 24 14:22:10 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 12:22:10 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> <7fdbc1a5-32a4-63cc-e00b-ca706c37fef9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: There was a Basic four system I had which was a small amount taller but you get into having to have a really big counterweight.? I could imagine a smaller amount and the rear placement of the 11/44 Power supply weight would allow RL02s and such pulled, but leave the system where it is and raise the lid. All w/o having gone to look it up, so I'm guessing.? Also the H960 has small feet that support the weight as well when you pull things for service. thanks Jim On 12/24/2021 12:16 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > Out of curiosity, is there a manual for this style PDP-11/44 online? This is the style I have, but I?m pretty sure my manual is for the pull-out enclosure. > > A manual on this enclosure might give some idea on the gas struts. > > Zane > > > >> On Dec 24, 2021, at 11:58 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have the same system cabinet, but have not looked at it in detail. I think from some of the replies, they are thinking about the H960 tall cabinets and systems that are pulled out, then rotate on the slides. >> >> This I think is like the hood of a car, then the system tilts up, as the cabinet isn't that tall that you can't work on it on top. >> >> As to sources, either automotive sources and match the fit, or a supplier like McMaster Carr. I don't think any NOS on these would be any better than the ones you have that rotted out. >> >> I only just got the 11/44 and didn't poke at it yet, just moved it from the original owner's storage to mine. >> >> I hope it to be one of my first 'big' projects after some PDP8s are tackled. >> >> thanks >> JIm >> >> On 12/23/2021 8:43 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: >>> I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. >>> It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and >>> supported by two gas struts, one on each side. >>> >>> Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have >>> failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is >>> heavy! >>> >>> Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Alan Frisbie >>> From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 01:41:13 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (pbirkel at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 02:41:13 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> <7fdbc1a5-32a4-63cc-e00b-ca706c37fef9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <0b2a01d7f962$cb294630$617bd290$@gmail.com> This would be the "11X44" configuration where the 11/44 is mounted in a 40 inch top-loading H9642 cabinet ("corp cab"). See http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/1144_UsersGuide.pdf, Figure 4-5 (page 4-7) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 24, 2021 3:16 PM To: jim stephens ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 gas struts Out of curiosity, is there a manual for this style PDP-11/44 online? This is the style I have, but I?m pretty sure my manual is for the pull-out enclosure. A manual on this enclosure might give some idea on the gas struts. Zane > On Dec 24, 2021, at 11:58 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > I have the same system cabinet, but have not looked at it in detail. I think from some of the replies, they are thinking about the H960 tall cabinets and systems that are pulled out, then rotate on the slides. > > This I think is like the hood of a car, then the system tilts up, as the cabinet isn't that tall that you can't work on it on top. > > As to sources, either automotive sources and match the fit, or a supplier like McMaster Carr. I don't think any NOS on these would be any better than the ones you have that rotted out. > > I only just got the 11/44 and didn't poke at it yet, just moved it from the original owner's storage to mine. > > I hope it to be one of my first 'big' projects after some PDP8s are tackled. > > thanks > JIm > > On 12/23/2021 8:43 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: >> I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. >> It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and supported by >> two gas struts, one on each side. >> >> Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have failed and do >> not provide any assistance. That box is heavy! >> >> Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? >> >> Thanks, >> Alan Frisbie >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 02:01:42 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 02:01:42 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: <6dc6089b-fd28-3a9b-b5fd-4b1c3131645b@flying-disk.com> <7fdbc1a5-32a4-63cc-e00b-ca706c37fef9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: take them off and take them to a specialized automotoive shop. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 2:22 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There was a Basic four system I had which was a small amount taller but > you get into having to have a really big counterweight. I could imagine > a smaller amount and the rear placement of the 11/44 Power supply weight > would allow RL02s and such pulled, but leave the system where it is and > raise the lid. > > All w/o having gone to look it up, so I'm guessing. Also the H960 has > small feet that support the weight as well when you pull things for > service. > > thanks > Jim > > On 12/24/2021 12:16 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > Out of curiosity, is there a manual for this style PDP-11/44 online? > This is the style I have, but I?m pretty sure my manual is for the pull-out > enclosure. > > > > A manual on this enclosure might give some idea on the gas struts. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > >> On Dec 24, 2021, at 11:58 AM, jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> I have the same system cabinet, but have not looked at it in detail. I > think from some of the replies, they are thinking about the H960 tall > cabinets and systems that are pulled out, then rotate on the slides. > >> > >> This I think is like the hood of a car, then the system tilts up, as > the cabinet isn't that tall that you can't work on it on top. > >> > >> As to sources, either automotive sources and match the fit, or a > supplier like McMaster Carr. I don't think any NOS on these would be any > better than the ones you have that rotted out. > >> > >> I only just got the 11/44 and didn't poke at it yet, just moved it from > the original owner's storage to mine. > >> > >> I hope it to be one of my first 'big' projects after some PDP8s are > tackled. > >> > >> thanks > >> JIm > >> > >> On 12/23/2021 8:43 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > >>> I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. > >>> It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and > >>> supported by two gas struts, one on each side. > >>> > >>> Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have > >>> failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is > >>> heavy! > >>> > >>> Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Alan Frisbie > >>> > > From peveep at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 05:01:07 2021 From: peveep at gmail.com (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 11:01:07 +0000 Subject: Stage 2 Macroprocessor Message-ID: Guys, Has anyone out there in the big wide world there got a version of the Stage 2 Macroprocessor than is ready to run on a Windows PC? I don't mean the build-it-yourself version. Refer to https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234809181_The_mobile_programming_system_STAGE2 . Many thanks, peter vp From jesse at cypress-tech.com Thu Dec 23 12:57:40 2021 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:57:40 -0500 Subject: HP / Agilent 3065 In-Circuit Test System - Message-ID: <2897bfd6-34a9-5877-036e-823ff9de1cef@cypress-tech.com> Does anyone on this list know of a company or individual that does work (maintenance or anything) on these older 3065 test systems. The internal brain and drives are all HP 1000 stuff. A900 control unit and HP-IB drives. I have a user that needs help installing a drive and software on one. If anyone knows of anyone that can assist, let me know and I'll forward the info Thanks Jesse / Cypress Technology Inc From dnm at pobox.com Sat Dec 25 14:56:18 2021 From: dnm at pobox.com (Daniel Moniz) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 12:56:18 -0800 Subject: Stage 2 Macroprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <063f901b-65fc-43ce-aaec-9e94b87c93da@www.fastmail.com> Hi Peter, On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, at 3:01 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > Guys, > > Has anyone out there in the big wide world there got a version of the > Stage > 2 Macroprocessor than is ready to run on a Windows PC? I don't mean the > build-it-yourself version. > Refer to > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234809181_The_mobile_programming_system_STAGE2 I have binaries I compiled a couple years ago of some different implementations, including William Waite's distribution. Took some minor hacking to get things to build, but seems to work for me, though I haven't used it lately, so it may fail on some test cases it should pass on. Drop me a line (dnm at pobox.com) if you want the circa 2019 32-bit Windows command line executable of the William Waite distribution I put together with Simply Fortran and Mingw-w64. -- Daniel Moniz [http://pobox.com/~dnm/] From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Sat Dec 25 17:37:46 2021 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 15:37:46 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark J. Blair wrote: > When I need gas struts and cannot identify a source for exact original > replacements, I usually look at McMaster-Carr first: > https://www.mcmaster.com/gas-struts/ Thanks for the McMaster-Carr suggestion, I should have thought of that. I removed the gas struts from my PDP-11/44 and found the following markings: Gas Spring Corp. Colmar, PA 1216166-0-0 22/81/3 (the "1" might be an "I") I measured them, and found a compressed length of about 9.8" and an extended length of 15.25". The threaded studs are 5/16"-24. I can't find the company, and Google turns up nothing with either of the number strings. Nor do the numbers seem to indicate what the specifications might be. Perhaps someone with better Google skills than I have might find something. It is, however, an almost perfect match for McMaster-Carr P/N 4138T55. The big unknown is the extension force. After cleaning and oiling them, one of the bad ones measures about 12 pounds, and the other is about 23 pounds. The 4138T55 is available in 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 90, and 120 pounds. I made a wild random guess and ordered two of the 30 pound struts, which should be delivered Wednesday (12/29/2021). The 40 pound ones have a seven week lead time, and a pair of 50 pound ones seem way too high. When they arrive, I'll let you know how well they work. Worst case, I will have wasted $20.29 each, plus shipping, and have to wait seven weeks for the 40 pound units, or go whole hog and try the 50 pound ones. Thanks for the help and suggestions. Alan Frisbie From stepleton at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 11:41:22 2021 From: stepleton at gmail.com (Tom Stepleton) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 17:41:22 +0000 Subject: "Voltmitten": an amateur overdesigns a DC voltage monitor Message-ID: Hi cctalk, Ever since CuriousMarc put out his YouTube horror film last April about a killer HP 9825T power supply , I've been worrying about how my own comparably-aged systems might avoid a similar fate, at least until I have the wherewithal to do a Jerry Walker -esque high-quality PSU refurbishment. In the end, borrowing a tactic from Commodore fans, I made a circuit that sits between a DC power supply and a load and cuts off the power if it senses an overvoltage or an undervoltage condition. I'm happy to share it with you now, with the usual anxiety amateurs feel when an audience includes some professionals. I hope at least some elements of the design can be useful! Here it is: https://github.com/stepleton/voltmitten/ (There are two reasons for the name "Voltmitten". One is that the gizmo is shaped a bit like a hand. The other is to remind you that it wasn't really designed by the most serious practitioner.) You can see my cute mock video advert for Voltmitten here: https://youtu.be/hSaAHBhTh_A I hope it's an adequate homage to Marc's inspiring videos. Most of the effort here went into a brief gag view of a carefully rotoscoped Bob Stern aka "Mr. Fancy Pants", which may not have been the best use of time but is at least a result I can feel proud of :-) With best wishes for a bright 2022, --Tom From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sun Dec 26 12:33:25 2021 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 18:33:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1712011871.2316401.1640543605240@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jacob and list, some years ago, I was also interested in some of their boards. The first thing I usually do with companies I didn't deal with, yet, is to contact them with questions to see if I get an answer and of what type it is. >From tamayatech, I never got any answers. Thus, I never ordered anything. PinnacleMicro was very different and a pleasure to deal with, but unfortunately, they dropped the DEC equipment support. I wonder where all their remaining equipment went to. Probably to some other support vendors. There are only a handful left regarding some bigger ones, to my knowledge. Cheers, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Dienstag, 21. Dezember 2021, 03:33:18 MEZ hat Jacob Ritorto via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: I think I should pass on my experience as a warning to others. I googled around for a particular PDP-11 board I needed and tamayatech.com was a hit, with "buy now" option and condition: refurbished.? Seemed convincing and the price was in the sane ballpark.? So I bought it, paid through their ecommerce routine, etc. Sent a mail thanking them and asking if it would be despatched soon as I had work time off in the coming week..? No reply. Waited a week and telephoned their phone number from the purchase confirmation email.? No answer.? Left message. Several (well over ten) repeated email and phone contact attempts through the last months (this began early November) to no avail.? There has been absolutely no response.? So my conclusion: it looks as though they took my credit card and never shipped it, then just ignored me. I hope the fellow's okay but feel quite thoroughly ripped off. So 'buyer' beware. Interestingly their SEO is rather well maintained and punching DEC part numbers into Google, etc. often results in a hit to their site.? So they're at least keeping that part of the business updated. Anybody else with similar experience?? Any way to rectify the situation? thx jake From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 26 12:44:56 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:44:56 -0800 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <1712011871.2316401.1640543605240@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1712011871.2316401.1640543605240@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d85e2cc-11e3-3e2d-fd2a-734d31dc9018@jwsss.com> I don't know who is left, but a friend who has a system running on a DS-20 alpha system migrated off the hardware as the vendor supporting them was withdrawing support (finally) for that and some others.? But they also supported hardware replacement for them, and migrated them to Intel servers. They did this about April last year.? I have the old Alpha, but don't expect to get much other than off ebay should I need parts. I don't know the support company, or where they were getting parts, their own, or working with such as you all mention. thanks Jim On 12/26/2021 10:33 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > PinnacleMicro was very different and a pleasure to deal with, but unfortunately, they dropped the DEC equipment support. I wonder where all their remaining equipment went to. Probably to some other support vendors. There are only a handful left regarding some bigger ones, to my knowledge. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 13:18:00 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 13:18:00 -0600 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> On 12/20/21 8:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > I think I should pass on my experience as a warning to others. > > I googled around for a particular PDP-11 board I needed and tamayatech.com > was a hit, with "buy now" option and condition: refurbished. Side question, if I may, but what does "refurbished" mean within the context of sellers like this? Board [fully] tested and working? Or simply "visually good"? Or have components such as electrolytic capacitors that might be marginal from old age been tested and replaced with new components where necessary? thanks, Jules From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Dec 26 21:09:30 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:09:30 -0800 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> > Side question, if I may, but what does "refurbished" mean within the > context of sellers like this? Board [fully] tested and working? Or > simply > "visually good"? Or have components such as electrolytic capacitors > that > might be marginal from old age been tested and replaced with new > components > where necessary? It means the item is actually so worthless that if it doesn't work, we refund you, we still make enough profit on S&H alone to justify the sale to you. Seriously, none of these guys are looking or testing anything and you would be nuts to think they would actually do any repairs. -Ali From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 26 21:31:05 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:31:05 -0800 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> Message-ID: <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> Epay has messed the definitions up into a useless mess. I'd expect? a vendor not selling on such to actually test the items.? Whether they are warranted is a separate issue. On ebay they've screwed over sellers to the point that it's all but wasting time to list there unless you sell either really new stock, or list as parts, junk only. Any attempt to describe the item as refurbished will mean most buyer will claim a problem, Ebay will refund them and screw you. thanks jim On 12/26/2021 7:09 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Side question, if I may, but what does "refurbished" mean within the >> context of sellers like this? Board [fully] tested and working? Or >> simply >> "visually good"? Or have components such as electrolytic capacitors >> that >> might be marginal from old age been tested and replaced with new >> components >> where necessary? > > It means the item is actually so worthless that if it doesn't work, we > refund you, we still make enough profit on S&H alone to justify the sale to > you. Seriously, none of these guys are looking or testing anything and you > would be nuts to think they would actually do any repairs. > > -Ali > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Dec 26 21:49:56 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:49:56 -0800 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> > Epay has messed the definitions up into a useless mess. > > I'd expect a vendor not selling on such to actually test the items. > Whether they are warranted is a separate issue. > > On ebay they've screwed over sellers to the point that it's all but > wasting time to list there unless you sell either really new stock, or > list as parts, junk only. > > Any attempt to describe the item as refurbished will mean most buyer > will claim a problem, Ebay will refund them and screw you. Not sure what you mean here. Refurbished means that a seller has brought an item to the original operating specs and that the item will operate as it should. This is also eBay's meaning of refurbished. So I am not sure why you think they "screwed" it up. The problem on eBay is that a seller will pull something out of a box that has been sitting on a shelf in the warehouse, at most hit it with some compressed air to get rid of dust, describe it as "refurbished" and list it for an exorbitant price. Whether it works or functions as intended is of no concern to them. With some electronics you can get away with this - simple add-on boards from the IBM PC era for example. Most of the time they will work and if it doesn't well prices or so jacked up that one non-refunded/completed sale will turn enough profit to cover the original S&H (which is usually the sellers actual real loss) on ten returns and still return a profit. With PSUs, whole systems, stuff with batteries this practice is more likely not to work. Of course my personal favorites are the seller refurbished items that "worked the last time used but no guarantees and are sold as is". LOL. Makeup your mind is it refurbished or is it junk? -Ali From doug at doughq.com Sun Dec 26 23:30:05 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:30:05 +1100 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> Message-ID: "worked the last time used but no guarantees and are sold as is" Reminds me of the test and tag rip-off that has been embedded in legislation. It was OK when we tested it at 3pm on Tuesday afternoon Your Honor. Gone are the days of personal accountability. On Mon, 27 Dec 2021, 2:50 pm Ali via cctalk, wrote: > > Epay has messed the definitions up into a useless mess. > > > > I'd expect a vendor not selling on such to actually test the items. > > Whether they are warranted is a separate issue. > > > > On ebay they've screwed over sellers to the point that it's all but > > wasting time to list there unless you sell either really new stock, or > > list as parts, junk only. > > > > Any attempt to describe the item as refurbished will mean most buyer > > will claim a problem, Ebay will refund them and screw you. > > Not sure what you mean here. Refurbished means that a seller has brought > an item to the original operating specs and that the item will operate as > it should. This is also eBay's meaning of refurbished. So I am not sure why > you think they "screwed" it up. > > The problem on eBay is that a seller will pull something out of a box that > has been sitting on a shelf in the warehouse, at most hit it with some > compressed air to get rid of dust, describe it as "refurbished" and list it > for an exorbitant price. Whether it works or functions as intended is of no > concern to them. With some electronics you can get away with this - simple > add-on boards from the IBM PC era for example. Most of the time they will > work and if it doesn't well prices or so jacked up that one > non-refunded/completed sale will turn enough profit to cover the original > S&H (which is usually the sellers actual real loss) on ten returns and > still return a profit. With PSUs, whole systems, stuff with batteries this > practice is more likely not to work. > > Of course my personal favorites are the seller refurbished items that > "worked the last time used but no guarantees and are sold as is". LOL. > Makeup your mind is it refurbished or is it junk? > > -Ali > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 26 23:43:55 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 21:43:55 -0800 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> Message-ID: On 12/26/2021 7:49 PM, Ali wrote: > Not sure what you mean here. Refurbished means that a seller has brought an item to the original operating specs and that the item will operate as it should. This is also eBay's meaning of refurbished. So I am not sure why you think they "screwed" it up. I have several friends who sell on ebay.? All were screwed over by buyers who used any other descriptions other than New or Parts only to obtain refunds at the expense of them.? YMMV. I agree with your definition, and if you read what I said, anywhere you wish to use those definitions in a reasonable way that is what it should mean. And I separated another attribute, Warranty from that. Refurbishment claims things that relate to warranty.? Is it certified by you on shipping, and is a "theshold" warranty?? Is it for a certain period of time to remain functioning? Such questions are hard to agree on on very old equipment.? Also the equipment such material is inserted into can be a big factor and wipe out a good part, so you have to know as a vendor if you can trust the situation you are shipping your parts into.? An experienced organization who has done support and probably won't do something w/o care and experience, or those who may not be able to. I supported 8 ways for several years, and learned who I could trust when something I tested good came back under warranty, and those I had to deal with differently. I just mentioned ebay as they make the definition there not much use. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 27 00:00:38 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 22:00:38 -0800 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> Message-ID: <870a2656-1af4-de0a-4e54-3c9f1c5d8c55@sydex.com> On 12/26/21 9:30 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > "worked the last time used but no guarantees and are sold as is" > > Reminds me of the test and tag rip-off that has been embedded in > legislation. > > It was OK when we tested it at 3pm on Tuesday afternoon Your Honor. > > Gone are the days of personal accountability. > > On Mon, 27 Dec 2021, 2:50 pm Ali via cctalk, wrote: > I got a kick out of the eBay sellers flogging logic analyzers without the pods, advertising them as "working". How can you tell? --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 27 00:04:09 2021 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 22:04:09 -0800 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <870a2656-1af4-de0a-4e54-3c9f1c5d8c55@sydex.com> References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> <870a2656-1af4-de0a-4e54-3c9f1c5d8c55@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7D6FB113-4675-4304-B4ED-7000A62DF402@nf6x.net> > On Dec 26, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I got a kick out of the eBay sellers flogging logic analyzers without > the pods, advertising them as "working". How can you tell? I guess that at least reveals sellers whose item condition statements cannot be trusted. -- Mark J. Blair Blog: https://www.nf6x.net Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR Twitter: @nf6x From sieler at allegro.com Mon Dec 27 13:55:31 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:55:31 -0800 Subject: Chuck Shimada passed away Message-ID: Long-time HP3000 programmer/user/evangelist, and friend, Chuck Shimada passed away yesterday, 12/26. Many list members will have seen Chuck at Interex and SCRUG conventions, running the tech side, or as part of the convention staff. He was a major force in the creation of the early "swap tapes" for contributed software. The science fiction fans on the list may have also seen him running tech at many science fiction conventions. >From a facebook post by Michael Donohue: I am very saddened to report that Chuck Shimada passed away this morning, Dec 26, 2021. He had been doing okay but was not feeling great Dec 24/25. I spoke to him Dec 24 and we had a nice conversation. He had some episode in his sleep, the nurse found him this morning alive but unresponsive with weak pulse and he passed away a few hours later. So he likely did pass without conscious discomfort. // From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 27 16:04:19 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: <870a2656-1af4-de0a-4e54-3c9f1c5d8c55@sydex.com> References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> <870a2656-1af4-de0a-4e54-3c9f1c5d8c55@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Dec 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I got a kick out of the eBay sellers flogging logic analyzers without > the pods, advertising them as "working". How can you tell? > It's painfully obvious! The power light came on. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 17:06:17 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:06:17 -0500 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> <870a2656-1af4-de0a-4e54-3c9f1c5d8c55@sydex.com> Message-ID: ..and don't forget the Amazon sellers. Why the other day I bought what I thought was a MITS Altair from an Amazon seller. What a ripoff, it worked right out of the box. No repairs needed. Sheesh. Bill On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 5:04 PM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 26 Dec 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > I got a kick out of the eBay sellers flogging logic analyzers without > > the pods, advertising them as "working". How can you tell? > > > It's painfully obvious! The power light came on. ;) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 27 19:48:59 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:48:59 -0700 Subject: tamayatech let down In-Reply-To: References: <731e5135-a73e-1080-9b7d-a1a1f6d0f4a6@gmail.com> <011201d7facf$2b1b6970$81523c50$@net> <5d5e3bfb-ae10-22f9-f1a0-7006c5f0f770@jwsss.com> <012201d7fad4$d15d6a90$74183fb0$@net> <870a2656-1af4-de0a-4e54-3c9f1c5d8c55@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0ecbcb35-9c0b-677c-0131-af511168b113@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-12-27 4:06 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > ..and don't forget the Amazon sellers. Why the other day I bought what I > thought was a MITS Altair from an Amazon seller. What a ripoff, it worked > right out of the box. No repairs needed. Sheesh. > Bill And they don't even send PIZZA. Is just me, but are the search engines finding not what is searched for but just ads or just what is popular now days first, after all the promos display. Ben. From s101885 at outlook.com Mon Dec 27 19:20:04 2021 From: s101885 at outlook.com (Ryan Ottignon) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 01:20:04 +0000 Subject: 86-DOS and Seattle Computer Products Message-ID: Hi ccTalk! My name is Ryan and I may have been in contact with a few of you already (Rich, most notably) about this topic. I am on a pretty wide search of any versions of 86-DOS, or any information regarding it. As of now, I have 7 copies of 86-DOS. They cover a disappointing range of versions ? from 1.00 to 1.14. There are a lot of duplicates. Versions prior to 1.00 were sold ? for example, I know of 2 collectors with versions in the 0.3x range, but both are unable to image it due to technical limitations. I?ve already contacted quite a few people. Most interestingly are 5 former Seattle Computer Products employees, as well as 2 family members of SCP owner Rod Brock. Tim Paterson, the creator of 86-DOS, didn?t have a copy, nor its source code. Pat Opalka, who contributed a bug fix, is in possession of a few copies, though none are prior to 1.00 (he may or may not be able to image them ? if he does, I?ll send another message here). 3 other employees didn?t have any documents from the time, nor any copies of the software. The 2 family members of Rod Brock don?t have any copies, but have relevant documents and recordings that they are in the process of sending over. So, if you have any copies of 86-DOS, even if you don?t want to share or its version is 1.00 or above, please send an e-mail back. I can send over imaging instructions. It was sold with the following computers: - Seattle Computer Products 8086 System - Seattle Computer Products Gazelle - Lomas Data Products LDP88 - Lomas Data Products LDP1 - Lomas Data Products LDP2 There are 8? copies for Tarbell and Cromemco floppy disk controllers, as well as 5.25? copies for NorthStar disk controllers. I will also take other relevant things such as people to contact, manuals, recollections of versions you may have had, etc. Thank you all for your time! - Ryan Ottignon From ats at offog.org Tue Dec 28 04:08:27 2021 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 10:08:27 +0000 Subject: 86-DOS and Seattle Computer Products In-Reply-To: (Ryan Ottignon via cctalk's message of "Tue, 28 Dec 2021 01:20:04 +0000") References: Message-ID: Ryan Ottignon via cctalk writes: > So, if you have any copies of 86-DOS, even if you don?t want to share > or its version is 1.00 or above, please send an e-mail back. You probably have this already, but there's at least one version in Don Maslin's collection of disk images: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/maslin_archive.zip See maslin_c_d_10apr97/ddrive/sydex/dos/scp86dos.td0 (Teledisk format; ImageDisk can convert this to other formats if needed). Cheers, -- Adam Sampson From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 30 05:21:50 2021 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:21:50 +0100 Subject: New mailadress Message-ID: <20211230112149.767suv3atsmqmajy@Update.UU.SE> Hi I've been using this adress for many years: "pontus at update.uu.se". But the club is now at risk of loosing the domain name. I'm therefore moving over to "pontus at dfupdate.se" Sorry if this is of topic but I have made many acquaintances on this list that might not find out otherwise. Regards, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 30 05:14:51 2021 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:14:51 +0100 Subject: New mailadress Message-ID: <20211230111451.pk4v3yduojqrp7ss@Update.UU.SE> Hi I've been using this adress for many years: "pontus at update.uu.se". But the club is now at risk of loosing the domain name. I'm therefore moving over to "pontus at dfupdate.se" Sorry if this is of topic but I have made many acquaintances on this list that might not find out otherwise. Regards, Pontus. From pontus at dfupdate.se Thu Dec 30 05:44:40 2021 From: pontus at dfupdate.se (pontus) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:44:40 +0100 Subject: New mailadress In-Reply-To: <20211230111451.pk4v3yduojqrp7ss@Update.UU.SE> References: <20211230111451.pk4v3yduojqrp7ss@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <6b125748a8d5f4b7800277c2fdfb95fa@dfupdate.se> More noise: Just testing if I can send from the new address. /P On 2021-12-30 12:14, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > I've been using this adress for many years: "pontus at update.uu.se". But > the club is now at risk of loosing the domain name. I'm therefore > moving > over to "pontus at dfupdate.se" > > Sorry if this is of topic but I have made many acquaintances on this > list that might not find out otherwise. > > Regards, > Pontus. From lwttapk at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 05:45:58 2021 From: lwttapk at gmail.com (Moxie Jim) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 05:45:58 -0600 Subject: New mailadress In-Reply-To: <6b125748a8d5f4b7800277c2fdfb95fa@dfupdate.se> References: <20211230111451.pk4v3yduojqrp7ss@Update.UU.SE> <6b125748a8d5f4b7800277c2fdfb95fa@dfupdate.se> Message-ID: Got it ! On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 05:44 pontus via cctalk wrote: > More noise: Just testing if I can send from the new address. > > /P > > On 2021-12-30 12:14, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > > Hi > > > > I've been using this adress for many years: "pontus at update.uu.se". But > > the club is now at risk of loosing the domain name. I'm therefore > > moving > > over to "pontus at dfupdate.se" > > > > Sorry if this is of topic but I have made many acquaintances on this > > list that might not find out otherwise. > > > > Regards, > > Pontus. > From spedraja at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 06:03:07 2021 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 13:03:07 +0100 Subject: New mailadress In-Reply-To: <20211230112149.767suv3atsmqmajy@Update.UU.SE> References: <20211230112149.767suv3atsmqmajy@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Sorry to hear this. May be possible any help? Kind Regards Sergio El jue., 30 dic. 2021 12:21, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escribi?: > Hi > > I've been using this adress for many years: "pontus at update.uu.se". But > the club is now at risk of loosing the domain name. I'm therefore moving > over to "pontus at dfupdate.se" > > Sorry if this is of topic but I have made many acquaintances on this > list that might not find out otherwise. > > Regards, > Pontus. > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 30 12:08:19 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:08:19 -0000 Subject: Testing a H744 Regulator on The Bench Message-ID: <00e801d7fda8$39bc6520$ad352f60$@ntlworld.com> Hello All, Following a discussion on resurrecting a PDP 11/45 I have started looking at the regulator bricks in the PSU. I have started with a H744. I reformed the three big capacitors, although they seemed to be fine as they charged up from my DC bench PSU and then had zero leakage so I didn't reform them for very long. I then moved on to powering the whole unit from my DC bench PSU and it seemed to run fine. I am using a panel mount 1R resistor, so drawing 5A of the rated 25A. It drew just under 2A from the PSU which was set at 20V. I didn't run it for very long as I wasn't sure how hot to allow the load to get. Is there any sense in measuring ripple when powering this from DC? There does seem to be some ripple: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/h744-ripple.png hard to say if that is OK? Also, the indicator light does not work (as expected). I have seen the suggestion to replace it with a CM7381. It looks like these can be sourced with relative ease, but I wondered if there might be a better LED-based longer term solution? I was also advised that OL-6003BP is good for the 15V regulators, but these seem to be hard to find, any suggestions there? Thanks Rob From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Thu Dec 30 14:39:29 2021 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:39:29 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/25/21 3:37 PM, I wrote: > I made a wild random guess and ordered two of the 30 pound struts, > which should be delivered Wednesday (12/29/2021).? The 40 pound > ones have a seven week lead time, and a pair of 50 pound ones seem > way too high.? When they arrive, I'll let you know how well they work. The 4138T55 30-pound struts arrived, and I have learned a few things: 1. The ball connector ends on the DEC struts have 5/16"-24 threads, but the 4138T55 struts have 5/16"-18 threads. Therefore, you need to swap the ball ends. This is actually the method that DEC recommends for replacing the struts and is described on pages 5-5 to 5-7 of the PDP-11/44 System User's Guide (EK-11024-UG, available on Bitsavers). 2. 30-pound struts are not strong enough. They improved things a bit, but it still takes a lot of effort to raise the box. I have ordered a pair of 50-pound struts and will post an update when they arrive (next week). 3. The 4138T55 struts from McMaster-Carr are made by Suspa, Inc. in Grand Rapids, MI. According to their design guide, the rod part of the strut should be installed lower than the body. This is the reverse of how DEC installed them, which may be why they don't last. When the new struts arrive, I will see if they can physically be mounted that way (I think they will), and will let you know. I'm learning a lot about gas struts these days, as the ones on the cover of my sand blast cabinet also failed after only a few months and the seller (Eastwood.com) can't supply replacements. Yet another learning experience! :-) Alan Frisbie From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 15:11:42 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 22:11:42 +0100 Subject: Testing a H744 Regulator on The Bench In-Reply-To: <00e801d7fda8$39bc6520$ad352f60$@ntlworld.com> References: <00e801d7fda8$39bc6520$ad352f60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Den tors 30 dec. 2021 kl 19:08 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Hello All, > > > > Following a discussion on resurrecting a PDP 11/45 I have started looking > at > the regulator bricks in the PSU. I have started with a H744. I reformed the > three big capacitors, although they seemed to be fine as they charged up > from my DC bench PSU and then had zero leakage so I didn't reform them for > very long. I then moved on to powering the whole unit from my DC bench PSU > and it seemed to run fine. I am using a panel mount 1R resistor, so drawing > 5A of the rated 25A. It drew just under 2A from the PSU which was set at > 20V. I didn't run it for very long as I wasn't sure how hot to allow the > load to get. > I think I have been through at least 10 H744 or similar bricks. Helped Update Computer club to repair a bunch of them. Most common fault was the rectifier bridge. One had blown in the most spectacular way. The metalhousing was gone completely. One connector element in the AC in had fused off. I used 30VAC input and a 0.4 ohm load resistor when testing. I have a 0.2 ohm but my variac is not able to supply the current needed for full load. I checked if anything became hot apart from the load resistor. > > > Is there any sense in measuring ripple when powering this from DC? There > does seem to be some ripple: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/h744-ripple.png hard to say > if > that is OK? > > That ripple is normal for H744. It is actually designed to have this type of ripple since the LM 723 regulator is connected with positive feedback creating a sort of schmitt trigger. It will turn on the switch transistor when the voltage after the LC network is under a certain limit and then turn off when it is over another limit, creating this charge/ discharge ripple seen in the trace. > > > Also, the indicator light does not work (as expected). I have seen the > suggestion to replace it with a CM7381. It looks like these can be sourced > > > with relative ease, but I wondered if there might be a better LED-based > longer term solution? I was also advised that OL-6003BP is good for the 15V > regulators, but these seem to be hard to find, any suggestions there? > I replaced them with a LED and a resistor. /Mattis > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From lists at glitchwrks.com Thu Dec 30 15:32:30 2021 From: lists at glitchwrks.com (Jonathan Chapman) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 21:32:30 +0000 Subject: Testing a H744 Regulator on The Bench In-Reply-To: References: <00e801d7fda8$39bc6520$ad352f60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Sounds like you're testing things basically the way I was: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2019/06/05/pdp1110-psu-repair I used a large Stancor 24 VAC transformer to supply power to the modules, since they usually see 20-30 VAC from the big transformer in the chassis. For dummy loads, I like automotive tail lamp bulbs. Series/parallel as necessary to get the load you want. Do keep in mind they get hot enough at rated voltage to melt soft plastics. > I replaced them with a LED and a resistor. Many of the later modules do that anyway! I used incandescent lamps because I had them on hand. Wouldn't you know, after reassembling and a few hours of bench running in the PDP-11/10, one of the old ones I hadn't replaced burned out too :P Thanks, Jonathan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Dec 30 15:37:37 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 16:37:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57856a46-b35b-2c76-1cfe-38734a073ada@alembic.crystel.com> Jesus. How much does the 11/44 chassis weigh? On 12/30/2021 3:39 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > 2. 30-pound struts are not strong enough.? They improved things a bit, > but it still takes a lot of effort to raise the box.? I have ordered a > pair of 50-pound struts and will post an update when they arrive (next > week). From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 15:55:53 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 13:55:53 -0800 Subject: Testing a H744 Regulator on The Bench In-Reply-To: <00e801d7fda8$39bc6520$ad352f60$@ntlworld.com> References: <00e801d7fda8$39bc6520$ad352f60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 12/30/2021 10:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Also, the indicator light does not work (as expected). I have seen the > suggestion to replace it with a CM7381. It looks like these can be sourced > > with relative ease, but I wondered if there might be a better LED-based > longer term solution? I was also advised that OL-6003BP is good for the 15V > regulators, but these seem to be hard to find, any suggestions there? For the OL-6003BP, the CM7370 will work nicely. The CM7003 is closer to the original specs (before de-rating for voltage), but doesn't last as long. See the PDP-8/I section of: https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php Vince From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 31 12:09:29 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 18:09:29 -0000 Subject: Testing a H744 Regulator on The Bench In-Reply-To: References: <00e801d7fda8$39bc6520$ad352f60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000001d7fe71$8e5f5190$ab1df4b0$@ntlworld.com> Regarding the ripple, can you see the spikes at the bottom of the troughs? They are a bit faint but they are there. Are they normal? Regards Rob From: Mattis Lind Sent: 30 December 2021 21:12 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Testing a H744 Regulator on The Bench Den tors 30 dec. 2021 kl 19:08 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk >: Hello All, Following a discussion on resurrecting a PDP 11/45 I have started looking at the regulator bricks in the PSU. I have started with a H744. I reformed the three big capacitors, although they seemed to be fine as they charged up from my DC bench PSU and then had zero leakage so I didn't reform them for very long. I then moved on to powering the whole unit from my DC bench PSU and it seemed to run fine. I am using a panel mount 1R resistor, so drawing 5A of the rated 25A. It drew just under 2A from the PSU which was set at 20V. I didn't run it for very long as I wasn't sure how hot to allow the load to get. I think I have been through at least 10 H744 or similar bricks. Helped Update Computer club to repair a bunch of them. Most common fault was the rectifier bridge. One had blown in the most spectacular way. The metalhousing was gone completely. One connector element in the AC in had fused off. I used 30VAC input and a 0.4 ohm load resistor when testing. I have a 0.2 ohm but my variac is not able to supply the current needed for full load. I checked if anything became hot apart from the load resistor. Is there any sense in measuring ripple when powering this from DC? There does seem to be some ripple: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/h744-ripple.png hard to say if that is OK? That ripple is normal for H744. It is actually designed to have this type of ripple since the LM 723 regulator is connected with positive feedback creating a sort of schmitt trigger. It will turn on the switch transistor when the voltage after the LC network is under a certain limit and then turn off when it is over another limit, creating this charge/ discharge ripple seen in the trace. Also, the indicator light does not work (as expected). I have seen the suggestion to replace it with a CM7381. It looks like these can be sourced with relative ease, but I wondered if there might be a better LED-based longer term solution? I was also advised that OL-6003BP is good for the 15V regulators, but these seem to be hard to find, any suggestions there? I replaced them with a LED and a resistor. /Mattis Thanks Rob From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Fri Dec 31 19:52:49 2021 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 17:52:49 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/44 gas struts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c20b54e-a947-4ffe-9d9d-7f14463efd3d@flying-disk.com> Chris Zach wrote: > Jesus. How much does the 11/44 chassis weigh? > > On 12/30/2021 3:39 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > >> 2. 30-pound struts are not strong enough.? They improved things a bit, >> but it still takes a lot of effort to raise the box.? I have ordered a >> pair of 50-pound struts and will post an update when they arrive (next >> week). The box itself weighs about 75 pounds, plus the weight of the cards. Remember, however, that the struts are not doing a simple lift of the box. The box is acting as a lever. The box is 24" long, and the struts are only about 5" from the pivot. Also, the struts are not doing a straight lift from directly below their attachment to the box, but at a point about 11" forward from where they are attached to the box. All of this greatly magnifies the force required to tilt the box up. Anyone care to do the math on this? Alan Frisbie From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Dec 30 17:00:02 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 23:00:02 +0000 (WET) Subject: H7821 power supply in MicroVAX 3100, SCSI disk enclosures and others In-Reply-To: References: <01RGTSDYQHTW8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01S8BJOYKEQ48WW0VA@beyondthepale.ie> Speaking of problems with DEC power supplies... Some time ago I posted about problems with five 1800uF capacitors in multiple H7821 power supplies leaking electrolyte, particularly when the machines are stored in the wrong orientation. One of my MicroVAX 3100 machines has a slightly different looking H7821 power supply with a shiney case instead of the matt cases on all the other ones. The five capacitors in this one seemed to be in good shape although on closer inspection there may be slight traces of leakage on some of them. However, after running happily for five to ten minutes, it went pop with the 4A glass mains input fuse blackened. Access is difficult enough but not impossible. This PSU consists of a double sided main PCB where the high power components are and four daughter boards permanently attached at right angles to the main board and blocking easy access to many of the heatsink mounted components. There are no component references and it is difficult to trace the circuit because the tracks on the component side of the main PCB are hidden by the larger components, heatsinks etc. There was dirty black dust accumulated by the fans everywhere and it was difficult to clean off because of all the obstructions. Starting at the mains input, I tried looking for shorted capacitors, bridge rectifier, chopper transistor, diodes etc that might cause the fuse to blow but failed to find anything obviously wrong. I also looked at the output rectifiers and smoothing capacitors and found nothing obviously wrong there either. I decided to replace the fuse and try the old series light bulb trick. My 150W bulb glowed at about a fifth of it's full brilliance and the power supply seemed to function reasonably well, the green LED came on, the fans turned and the unloaded +5V and +12V outputs looked good. However the brightness of the bulb suggested too much current was being drawn. An el-cheapo digital multimeter suggested there was only 28V across the power supply mains input. A slightly better model suggested it was closer to 90V (out of 220V), however the likely wacky waveform could be confusing the meter. I left it running in this state for a little while but pulled out the mains lead when I thought I got a slight whiff of cooking electronics. It was quite difficult to quickly check that the input smoothing capacitors had discharged enough and probe various likely components with fingers to see which might be getting hot before they had time to cool down again. After a couple of attempts, I identified a MOV/varistor/surge arrestor thing in some thick heatshrink rubber stuff as a likely suspect. After unsoldering it, I found it was cracked and blackened on the underside where I couldn't see because of the heatshrink covering it. I replaced it with the equivalent one out of another H7821 which had been damaged by capacitor leakage. When I turned the power on, the bulb glowed much less, however, there were unexplained slight variations in it's brightness. While I was studying this, there was a slight cracking sound accompanied by a wisp of smoke and the bulb suddenly got much brighter. The replacement MOV thing had failed. It was connected across one of the main input smoothing capacitors, the other capacitor also having one which was unaffected. This fault was starting to look a bit familiar to me. In a different DEC power supply, I had a triac used to switch the power supply automatically between 220V and 110V mains input go short circuit causing a similarly placed MOV and fuse to fail when the unit was powered from 220V. I tried looking for a similar functioning triac in the H7821 which was not easy to do as explained. The best way to identify this component seems to be to look for a three legged high power component (which may or may not be on a heatsink - the previous one wasn't) which is more or less directly connected between the (neutral?) AC input to the bridge rectifier and the point where one end of each of the input main smoothing capacitors are connected together. Trying to follow the PCB traces was nearly impossible but buzzing out lightly suspects with a continuity tester identified a MAC220-8 mounted on the same heatsink as the main chopper device plus a temperature sensing thermistor right at the input end of the power supply as very likely to be it. It wasn't shorted which was disappointing but I decided to take it out of circuit anyway. It was necessary to unsolder the MAC220-8 and the thermistor using a solder-sucker to free the leads, unscrew the heatsink from the PCB and lean it over to one side in order to be able to unscrew the MAC220-8 from it. After soldering the thermistor back in, replacing the MOV again and powering up with the triac out, the light bulb glowed slightly for a brief period at switch on but after that there was no visible illumination while the power supply worked nicely. However, the power supply should only work on 220V with the triac missing. I extracted the same triac from the leakage damaged H7821 and compared the two devices. It turned out that the one that had caused the difficulties measured about 2.2 megaohms between MT1 and MT2 in one direction only when out of circuit while the other triac read infinity in both directions. I decided to fit the good triac into the power supply so that it would then work on either 110V or 220V as originally designed. Happily, it still worked fine after this was done. If I hadn't come across a similar fault before in a more accessible PSU, I think I would have had a very hard time tracking down this fault. Flushed with success, I moved on to look at a H7816 from a DEC 3000/600 Alphaserver. This one shows little or no signs of life except for a barely audible click at switch on. The fuse is not blown and there are no obvious signs of distress anywhere. This one is a real pig to work on. Firstly, the incoming earth connection is made to the lid of the power supply so when the lid is removed to work on it, there is no longer any earth connection to the rest of the unit. A sticker is thoughtfully placed on the underside of the lid to warn about this situation. There are also two sub-boards attached to the underside of the lid. One is a fan controller circuit (partially obscuring the sticker) which is easily removed and put out of the way. The other sub-board contains the mains input fuse, bridge rectifier, a 110V/220V autosense circuit and what seems to be either a soft start circuit or less likely, a circuit to cut the power under computer control. It is connected to the main board via a plug and socket and five leads which are only barely long enough to reach. The plug has to be removed in order to take the lid off and then 300V DC is no longer fed to the main board meaning that measurements cannot be taken on the main board to investigate what might be wrong. The real doozie is that the sub-board has a heatsink on it which is directly connected to the live side of the incoming mains for no good reason that I can see other than to make it difficult to work on. Trying to plug the sub-board back in without the lid in place would leave this live heatsink flopping onto the components mounted on the main board below. As well as all this grief, a whole bunch of low power components are mounted on another board which clipped under the main board about 10mm away from it and connected to it using three multipin plug/socket combinations denying access to the print side of the main board and the component side of the low power board whenever the unit is able to operate. There seem to be 20 Ohm load resistors across all of the outputs, making it difficult to check the output rectifiers and smoothers without desoldering stuff, in the event that the power supply turns out to be tripping due to overcurrent. On a positive note, there are component references on the boards, the minor boards are single sided, the unit is clean inside and one side is completely open allowing some access with the lid on (while keeping away from the live heatsink...) I took on this machine knowing it had a power supply fault. How hard could it be to fix it, I thought :-) I'm hoping I have an identical power supply in another machine which I can use to make comparisons to. Regards, Peter Coghlan.