From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 01:25:50 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 23:25:50 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49e245b2-5bbb-8047-0b0d-f8cee49fabcd@gmail.com> Jack Rubin sent me photos of the patch cords he has, which are quite different. Maybe they are originally from the older logic lab, instead of the computer lab? Anyway, I updated my page: https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php slightly to include the pin numbers and the photos of Jack's cool DEC branded stackable mini-banana plugs. Vince From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 05:37:58 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:37:58 +0200 Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 05:08, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I now have my VAXstation 4000/vlc up and running OpenVMS 7.3, DECnet Phase IV, and part of my cluster. It?s using a SCSI2SD v5.2 board for the hard drive. While have plenty of DEC Hard Drives, I like the lower noise, power, and heat of the SCSI2SD?s, plus I can really cram the disk space in there, this has a whopping 32GB. :-) This is good news -- well done. I have 3 of the things, with keyboards and mice, but only 1 DEC mono monitor. Unfortunately my to-do list is so long that I've never even tried them since I got them 8 years ago. :-( I don't know where to begin testing, TBH... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 1 11:27:48 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 09:27:48 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 31, 2021, at 8:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I?m using a VSXXX-AA mouse (Hocky Puck), and when I use the middle-button on the mouse, it messes up DECwindows, and I?m no longer able to use the other buttons, which means I can?t change to another window, or access menus. It remains like this until I either logout, or reboot. > > Does this sound familiar to anyone? I?ll answer my own question. This morning I booted up using my other VSXXX-AA mouse. And it works as expected, so the problem is the mouse. Of course the bad mouse is the nice one, the good one is disgusting. :-( Time to shutdown and try and clean it up. Zane From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 11:39:30 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:39:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <144141981.2364808.1622565570373@mail.yahoo.com> The described behavior is what you'd get in X11 if the middle-button is "stuck on" (autorepeating) after being pressed the first time, and you move the mouse. Not sure if that helps, though. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 1 11:41:18 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:41:18 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 1, 2021, at 12:27 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > On May 31, 2021, at 8:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >> I?m using a VSXXX-AA mouse (Hocky Puck), and when I use the middle-button on the mouse, it messes up DECwindows, and I?m no longer able to use the other buttons, which means I can?t change to another window, or access menus. It remains like this until I either logout, or reboot. >> >> Does this sound familiar to anyone? > > I?ll answer my own question. This morning I booted up using my other VSXXX-AA mouse. And it works as expected, so the problem is the mouse. Of course the bad mouse is the nice one, the good one is disgusting. :-( Time to shutdown and try and clean it up. It would be interesting to attach a UART to the comm link (4800 bps, RS-232 signal levels) and capture what happens. It's quite strange to see a system failure caused by pressing a button. I suppose it could be a bug in the system software mishandling a protocol error on the mouse to system link. Or perhaps the mouse embedded controller has failed so that pressing the button in question crashes the controller and makes it stop talking to the host. In that case you'd think that unplugging and replugging the mouse would cure the issue, though. paul From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 11:47:22 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:47:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue In-Reply-To: <144141981.2364808.1622565570373@mail.yahoo.com> References: <144141981.2364808.1622565570373@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <395284519.2368009.1622566042496@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, June 1, 2021, 09:39:41 AM PDT, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: >The described behavior is what you'd get in X11 if the middle-button is "stuck on" (autorepeating) after being pressed the first time, >and you move the mouse. Not sure if that helps, though. Supposedly there's an "xev" with Decwindows Motif. Do you have one in DECW$UTILS: ? Try it (with good mouse first) and see what it reports when the bad mouse goes bad. ? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 1 13:53:47 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 19:53:47 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9006ce25-ae48-fb8f-d31b-7ac913657ca7@ntlworld.com> On 01/06/2021 17:41, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > It would be interesting to attach a UART to the comm link (4800 bps, RS-232 signal levels) and capture what happens. It's quite strange to see a system failure caused by pressing a button. I suppose it could be a bug in the system software mishandling a protocol error on the mouse to system link. Or perhaps the mouse embedded controller has failed so that pressing the button in question crashes the controller and makes it stop talking to the host. In that case you'd think that unplugging and replugging the mouse would cure the issue, though. > Years ago I had a VSXXX-AA mouse that stopped a VS3100-76 from powering up. Removed the mouse and it was fine. Tried another mouse and it was fine. I recently re-tested my DEC mice and none exhibited that behaviour, so I've no idea where that one has ended up. I couldn't remember whether you could hot-swap mice or keyboards (I *think* you could, but I wasn't *sure*) so I tested the slow way, with reboots and power-cycles (and a long gap to give the VS4000-60 a breather in between!) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From steve at cosam.org Tue Jun 1 15:16:58 2021 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 22:16:58 +0200 Subject: BA11 power filter Message-ID: After a few years in storage I'm finally getting to play with my PDP-11 stuff again. Figured I'd start small so rolled out the 11/23. PSU looks fine, pulled all the cards and checked voltages, no problem. Shortly after however, some magic smoke was released from the block in the back where AC comes in and the power switch is mounted. The only other thing in there is a big old line filter. Judging by the smell, I suspect a filter capacitor has given up the ghost. I'd check, but the whole thing is soldered shut so not exactly easily serviceable. Would I be correct in thinking such filters aren't entirely necessary and could just be bypassed? It looks like the manufacturer (JMK) is still going so a new replacement might not be out of the question. Whether I could find one with the same mounting holes etc. is another question I've not looked into yet. Cheers, Steve From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 1 15:38:37 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:38:37 -0400 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41ECF87C-5E14-404E-97FF-C8AD9834769C@comcast.net> > On Jun 1, 2021, at 4:16 PM, Steve Maddison via cctalk wrote: > > After a few years in storage I'm finally getting to play with my PDP-11 > stuff again. Figured I'd start small so rolled out the 11/23. PSU looks > fine, pulled all the cards and checked voltages, no problem. Shortly after > however, some magic smoke was released from the block in the back where AC > comes in and the power switch is mounted. The only other thing in there is > a big old line filter. Judging by the smell, I suspect a filter capacitor > has given up the ghost. I'd check, but the whole thing is soldered shut so > not exactly easily serviceable. Would I be correct in thinking such filters > aren't entirely necessary and could just be bypassed? It looks like the > manufacturer (JMK) is still going so a new replacement might not be out of > the question. Whether I could find one with the same mounting holes etc. is > another question I've not looked into yet. I'm not sure if you're talking about the same sort of device I had trouble with, so FYI: the Pro power supply is a box the size of an old-fashioned Bible, with a CEE power inlet at one end. That inlet is actually part of a sealed metal box containing a power filter. Mine decided to let out its magic smoke, in quite spectacular fashion, stinking up the workshop and leaking evil looking black tarry stuff over the insides of the power supply. But the supply appeared to be intact in other respects. I couldn't find a matching filter, so instead I found a functionaly similar filter that's physically smaller. I then created an adapter plate with a hole to accept the new filter, and a flange sized to match the old one. My sheet metal skills aren't great so it doesn't look all that professional but it's plenty good to get the job done. FYI, the new filter is this one: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schurter-inc/5120.2006.0/1843934 -- about half the size of the one it replaces. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 1 15:42:45 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 13:42:45 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 4000/vlc mouse issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C5BFB2E-F2CD-43CD-9AB4-702256F09150@avanthar.com> On Jun 1, 2021, at 9:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jun 1, 2021, at 12:27 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >> On May 31, 2021, at 8:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I?m using a VSXXX-AA mouse (Hocky Puck), and when I use the middle-button on the mouse, it messes up DECwindows, and I?m no longer able to use the other buttons, which means I can?t change to another window, or access menus. It remains like this until I either logout, or reboot. >>> >>> Does this sound familiar to anyone? >> >> I?ll answer my own question. This morning I booted up using my other VSXXX-AA mouse. And it works as expected, so the problem is the mouse. Of course the bad mouse is the nice one, the good one is disgusting. :-( Time to shutdown and try and clean it up. > > It would be interesting to attach a UART to the comm link (4800 bps, RS-232 signal levels) and capture what happens. It's quite strange to see a system failure caused by pressing a button. I suppose it could be a bug in the system software mishandling a protocol error on the mouse to system link. Or perhaps the mouse embedded controller has failed so that pressing the button in question crashes the controller and makes it stop talking to the host. In that case you'd think that unplugging and replugging the mouse would cure the issue, though. > > paul I?m effectively seeing a ?Stuck On? as Jonathan describes. Since it?s fine until I hit the middle-button, I tend to suspect that the issue is the chip in the mouse. Things go back to normal if I?m able to log out, or reboot. On a positive note, the ?disgusting? mouse, is no longer disgusting, but rather simply discoloured. The rodent was actually sticky, in addition to being filthy. Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jun 1 16:39:16 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:39:16 -0400 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12605541-0e9a-4d3c-9ad7-1eb2abb86df3@alembic.crystel.com> Interesting: I just tried firing up a pair of BA11-N's to see if they work. One blew the fuse in that block in the back and I thought it was a shorted PS but the PS input caps are not shorted. I'll check to see if the filter capacitor in that spot is shot. On 6/1/2021 4:16 PM, Steve Maddison via cctalk wrote: > After a few years in storage I'm finally getting to play with my PDP-11 > stuff again. Figured I'd start small so rolled out the 11/23. PSU looks > fine, pulled all the cards and checked voltages, no problem. Shortly after > however, some magic smoke was released from the block in the back where AC > comes in and the power switch is mounted. The only other thing in there is > a big old line filter. Judging by the smell, I suspect a filter capacitor > has given up the ghost. I'd check, but the whole thing is soldered shut so > not exactly easily serviceable. Would I be correct in thinking such filters > aren't entirely necessary and could just be bypassed? It looks like the > manufacturer (JMK) is still going so a new replacement might not be out of > the question. Whether I could find one with the same mounting holes etc. is > another question I've not looked into yet. > > Cheers, > > Steve > From steve at cosam.org Wed Jun 2 05:34:05 2021 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 12:34:05 +0200 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: <41ECF87C-5E14-404E-97FF-C8AD9834769C@comcast.net> References: <41ECF87C-5E14-404E-97FF-C8AD9834769C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 22:38, Paul Koning wrote: > > I'm not sure if you're talking about the same sort of device I had trouble with, so FYI: the Pro power supply is a box the size of an old-fashioned Bible, with a CEE power inlet at one end. That inlet is actually part of a sealed metal box containing a power filter. > > Mine decided to let out its magic smoke, in quite spectacular fashion, stinking up the workshop and leaking evil looking black tarry stuff over the insides of the power supply. But the supply appeared to be intact in other respects. > > I couldn't find a matching filter, so instead I found a functionaly similar filter that's physically smaller. I then created an adapter plate with a hole to accept the new filter, and a flange sized to match the old one. My sheet metal skills aren't great so it doesn't look all that professional but it's plenty good to get the job done. > > FYI, the new filter is this one: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schurter-inc/5120.2006.0/1843934 -- about half the size of the one it replaces. > Yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing although mine looks to be significantly larger than your replacement, measuring about 120x75x45mm. From what I've read they are both sealed/soldered and potted so that would explain the black goo. Fortunately mine didn't quite get to that stage although it was suitably "fragrant" for sure. I will double check the specs but your replacement looks like it'd work for me too - very kind of them to put the schematic on the outside :) Thanks for the link! -Steve From steve at cosam.org Wed Jun 2 05:48:01 2021 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 12:48:01 +0200 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: <12605541-0e9a-4d3c-9ad7-1eb2abb86df3@alembic.crystel.com> References: <12605541-0e9a-4d3c-9ad7-1eb2abb86df3@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 23:39, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Interesting: I just tried firing up a pair of BA11-N's to see if they > work. One blew the fuse in that block in the back and I thought it was a > shorted PS but the PS input caps are not shorted. I'll check to see if > the filter capacitor in that spot is shot. That is also interesting to me, that you have a fuse in there or even any visible components other than switches. Maybe they opted for more discrete components in other variations of the chassis (I can't actually find the BA11 designation on mine). My actual PSU also seems to be unscathed although I have not checked it thoroughly as yet. -Steve From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 06:35:59 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 19:35:59 +0800 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those filter caps also cause other problems. I had now two cases in succession where an old computer tripped the Residual Current Device (RCD) in my switchboard. Both used Sprague 0.1 uF filter caps in "bathtub" configuration in a metal can. Each cap is connected on one side to ground and the other side is connected to active and neutral respectively. These leak more than the 30 mA tolerated by my RCD which is compulsory in all mains switchboards in Western Australia. I think that the capacitors are not actually faulty but 0.1 uF is simply too large. The filter design predates RCDs. There are "proper" mains filters which don't exhibit this problem with RCDs, but of course they mechanically won't fit where the old filter caps were. Best regards Tom Hunter On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 4:17 AM Steve Maddison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > After a few years in storage I'm finally getting to play with my PDP-11 > stuff again. Figured I'd start small so rolled out the 11/23. PSU looks > fine, pulled all the cards and checked voltages, no problem. Shortly after > however, some magic smoke was released from the block in the back where AC > comes in and the power switch is mounted. The only other thing in there is > a big old line filter. Judging by the smell, I suspect a filter capacitor > has given up the ghost. I'd check, but the whole thing is soldered shut so > not exactly easily serviceable. Would I be correct in thinking such filters > aren't entirely necessary and could just be bypassed? It looks like the > manufacturer (JMK) is still going so a new replacement might not be out of > the question. Whether I could find one with the same mounting holes etc. is > another question I've not looked into yet. > > Cheers, > > Steve > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 2 08:11:39 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 09:11:39 -0400 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: References: <41ECF87C-5E14-404E-97FF-C8AD9834769C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6B7C0C2F-376A-4ACB-858B-BF17CF64785E@comcast.net> > On Jun 2, 2021, at 6:34 AM, Steve Maddison via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 22:38, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I'm not sure if you're talking about the same sort of device I had trouble with, so FYI: the Pro power supply is a box the size of an old-fashioned Bible, with a CEE power inlet at one end. That inlet is actually part of a sealed metal box containing a power filter. >> >> Mine decided to let out its magic smoke, in quite spectacular fashion, stinking up the workshop and leaking evil looking black tarry stuff over the insides of the power supply. But the supply appeared to be intact in other respects. >> >> I couldn't find a matching filter, so instead I found a functionaly similar filter that's physically smaller. I then created an adapter plate with a hole to accept the new filter, and a flange sized to match the old one. My sheet metal skills aren't great so it doesn't look all that professional but it's plenty good to get the job done. >> >> FYI, the new filter is this one: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schurter-inc/5120.2006.0/1843934 -- about half the size of the one it replaces. >> > > Yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing although mine looks > to be significantly larger than your replacement, measuring about > 120x75x45mm. From what I've read they are both sealed/soldered and > potted so that would explain the black goo. Fortunately mine didn't > quite get to that stage although it was suitably "fragrant" for sure. > I will double check the specs but your replacement looks like it'd > work for me too - very kind of them to put the schematic on the > outside :) Thanks for the link! > > -Steve You're welcome. There are plenty of other filters similar to the one I mentioned; it just happens that this one was a good replacement for the one that failed in my system. For that matter, there are a number of other suppliers. If you prefer screw mount rather than snap-in, that's available. Integrated switches and/or fuse holders I assume are there as well, I didn't look. Also various filter configurations and current ratings. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Jun 2 08:13:01 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 09:13:01 -0400 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: References: <12605541-0e9a-4d3c-9ad7-1eb2abb86df3@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <677c4240-fb07-c9c4-14c3-594892f773f6@alembic.crystel.com> Really? There is a 10a fuse in a round holder on the back of the rack, right by the plug input. Swapping the H786 power supply with another one results in a working unit for me, so I don't think the problem is in the power switch box. Maybe you have a BA11-M? Is it a 4 slot chassis or 9? C On 6/2/2021 6:48 AM, Steve Maddison via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 23:39, Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Interesting: I just tried firing up a pair of BA11-N's to see if they >> work. One blew the fuse in that block in the back and I thought it was a >> shorted PS but the PS input caps are not shorted. I'll check to see if >> the filter capacitor in that spot is shot. > > That is also interesting to me, that you have a fuse in there or even > any visible components other than switches. Maybe they opted for more > discrete components in other variations of the chassis (I can't > actually find the BA11 designation on mine). My actual PSU also seems > to be unscathed although I have not checked it thoroughly as yet. > > -Steve > From steve at cosam.org Wed Jun 2 09:06:56 2021 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:06:56 +0200 Subject: BA11 power filter In-Reply-To: <677c4240-fb07-c9c4-14c3-594892f773f6@alembic.crystel.com> References: <12605541-0e9a-4d3c-9ad7-1eb2abb86df3@alembic.crystel.com> <677c4240-fb07-c9c4-14c3-594892f773f6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 at 15:13, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Really? There is a 10a fuse in a round holder on the back of the rack, > right by the plug input. Swapping the H786 power supply with another one > results in a working unit for me, so I don't think the problem is in the > power switch box. > > Maybe you have a BA11-M? Is it a 4 slot chassis or 9? > According to my old notes it's a BA11-SB, so 9 slot with H7861 power supply. The block at the back has part number H403-B, no fuse holder, just the main on/off switch and another switch held in place by a plastic plate. Based on the inscriptions on said plate, I'm guessing the latter to select the required line voltage. -Steve From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 2 10:46:29 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 10:46:29 -0500 Subject: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) In-Reply-To: References: <01ac01d75532$61217f70$23647e50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000901d757c6$741519c0$5c3f4d40$@classiccmp.org> There was an incorrect link posted, and then a few moments later the correct link was posted. So ignore the first one and use the second one. If you use the first one, you'll join my MOHAA gaming discord, probably not what you want heh I will check the 2nd one to make sure it is still valid, but thought it had no expiration date. Jay -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Warner Losh via cctalk Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2021 9:26 AM To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Torfinn Ingolfsen Subject: Re: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) On Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:01 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > No, the invitation doesn't work anymore. Would be nice to get a new one. > https://discord.gg/xqAypCGp will work for either a week or a month. Warner Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Torfinn > > Ingolfsen via cctalk > > Sent: 30 May 2021 08:54 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Discord (was: DEC Computer Lab for sale) > > > > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 5:20 AM Mike Stein via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Any way to get a Discord invite? > > > > > > > The original post about Discord is in the mailing list archives > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-November/050588.html > > not sure if the invite still is working. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > From als at thangorodrim.ch Thu Jun 3 17:10:45 2021 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 00:10:45 +0200 Subject: Writings on AI from 17 years ago.... In-Reply-To: <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9379bb2c-23e8-fd44-2f7c-b4500f294b39@alembic.crystel.com> <3acfc92f-2a9f-7a77-0914-76ee62496ca1@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20210603221045.GA21867@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 04:22:52PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul ever > got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come and pick it > up again. > > Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought Paul > Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure. Neither of that happened, he sadly ran out of life. And apparently hadn't set up things to enable them to survive him (whatever an appropriate legal structure would have been - IANAL). Kind regards, Alex. > > C > > On 5/24/2021 4:07 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now > > > > all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.? They'd basically > > > > need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, > > > > Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after > > > > Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than > > > > reopening. > > > > > > > > I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor. > > > > > > Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there > > > and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it? > > > > > You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!? Five bucks says it > > all goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister > > to do it that way. > > > > g. > > -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 17:16:06 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 17:16:06 -0500 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/30/21 10:42 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > The mini-banana works OK, and I don't know of anything better that is still > available.? A hundred of them (50 patch cables) won't be cheap. > > https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php > The photos get a little bigger if you click them.? Those bits of stamped > brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each. That's interesting, I just dug out my 1962 DEC modules handbook (which appears to pre-date the H-500 by a few years) and they were using banana plugs for connections between their modules at that point in time. I wonder why they changed - purely cost reasons? From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 23:42:22 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 21:42:22 -0700 Subject: ISO: DW8E parts Message-ID: Hi all -- I picked up a DW8E backplane from a friendly listmember this week and now I just need to find parts to populate it (a simple task, right?); I'm hoping to use it with my negibus PDP-8/I for my ongoing TSS/8 project(*) (in order to provide numerous serial lines and if I get really ambitious/lucky, an RK05). It looks like I need an M7101 and four M7103's. I intend to build the cabling myself unless anyone has a set of single-to-Y (BC08D) I/O cabling. Also on the hunt for a chassis to put these in; this is identical to the one used for the PDP-8f/m (but sans blinkenlights). Thanks! - Josh (*) RF08 restoration is underway and emulation of multiple RS08s is in progress... From me at larbob.org Fri Jun 4 17:49:18 2021 From: me at larbob.org (Larkin Nickle) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 18:49:18 -0400 Subject: Compaq C V6.5-303 for Tru64? Message-ID: Does anyone have a copy of Compaq C V6.5-303 for Tru64? It used to be available from https://h20392.www2.hp.com/portal/swdepot/try.do?productNumber=T64_DTK, but this link has been dead for a while and hasn't been archived. From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Sat Jun 5 18:35:07 2021 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 19:35:07 -0400 Subject: Compaq C V6.5-303 for Tru64? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24d06f55-d708-1010-03db-65e366a9475b@personalprojects.net> The new URL is: https://myenterpriselicense.hpe.com/cwp-ui/free-software/T64_DTK You need to log in to download it, but you can create an account for free if you don't already have one. (I don't know if you might need a paid license to run/use the software.) On 2021-06-04 6:49 p.m., Larkin Nickle via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of Compaq C V6.5-303 for Tru64? It used to be > available from > https://h20392.www2.hp.com/portal/swdepot/try.do?productNumber=T64_DTK, > but this link has been dead for a while and hasn't been archived. > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jun 6 19:09:56 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 19:09:56 -0500 Subject: Epson QX-10 Q10CMS board Message-ID: Hi all, There was a post in one of the Facebook vintage groups from someone who has Epson QX-10 Q10CMS and Q10GMS boards. The GMS is what I have in my own QX-10, but does anyone know what the CMS board is? Both boards have a NEC 7220 graphics controller, but the CMS appears to have more on-board memory (384KB vs. 256KB). On the other hand, I'm not seeing any on-board ROM in the photo of the CMS, unlike on my GMS. cheers, Jules From tony at scorchingbay.nz Sun Jun 6 19:34:13 2021 From: tony at scorchingbay.nz (tony at scorchingbay.nz) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 12:34:13 +1200 Subject: DEC Computer Lab for sale In-Reply-To: <5f5fb78f-ee24-f6d8-2473-c50162e5fcc0@gmail.com> References: <69b3e304-29bc-c2fb-1f89-665257540279@gmail.com> <2c56a37e-6d7d-cafc-5603-36717fa424f9@gmail.com> <093ac0e3-dae4-6b63-46b2-11d761b2fe5c@gmail.com> <5f5fb78f-ee24-f6d8-2473-c50162e5fcc0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 31/05/2021 10:02 am, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > On 5/30/2021 1:02 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> What's the length and the diameters at each end of the pin? I've got >> some cables for Burroughs patch panels that might be useful. > > The pin diameter at the rounded tip is .093", a standard pin diameter. > It flares to 0.102" or so, over about 0.34" of length. The overall pin > length (including the insulation crimp/strain relief) is about 0.65". > > Also measured some patch cords (pin tip to pin tip): > Brown is 2.75". > Red is 4.75". > Orange is 6.75". > Yellow is 8.75". > Green is 16.5". > Subtract about an inch and a quarter for the length of the visible wire. > > There was also blue, though I don't have one to measure.? My notes > remind me that the blue looks about an inch or so longer than green, > based on the cover photo of the manual. At that length it will > comfortably reach across the device, whereas the green is just a > little short for that. > > Found in my old notes: > The DEC 12-03498 was a #41675 taper pin. > Similar AMP taper pins: > 42107 "88" series will fit. > 42279 is similar, though obsolete. > > My old notes also suggest higher quantities for the patch cords; 100 > of them all together: > B 20 > R 30 > O 25 > Y 20 > G 10 > B? 2 > > ????Vince I've got to admit that I recently found I had some boxes of these cords and as they were rather tarnished, considered tossing them into the cable recycling pile :-( Now that you have reminded me what they are (I checked they fitted computer lab), I have checked the dimensions you gave and can confirm the approx dimensions of the pins and most of the cords.? But two changes, the green ones are 16.75" inches long, and the blue ones are 24.75" long. Can anyone independently verify the number of each cord type in a set? -- Tony. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Wed Jun 9 11:14:07 2021 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?utf-8?Q?St=C3=BCber?=) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 18:14:07 +0200 Subject: Lecture: The Oldenburg =?utf-8?Q?Computer_?= =?utf-8?Q?Museum_=E2=80=93?= Rearing and Care, 2021-06-12, 19:00 References: <20210609161407.GR11631.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: <20210609161407.GR11631@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Hi all, you're invited to the Update computer club[0] public lecture series "Updateringar"[1]! Update is a Swedish computer club founded in 1983 whose members tinker with all kinds of computers, from Raspberry Pi to PDP-12. The club has a big collection of historic computers. In this lecture series we'll talk about everything related to computers: Historic and modern computers, operating systems, programming, hardware projects, creating art with computers, building a computer museum, and more. When: 2021-06-12, 19:00 CEST Where: https://bbb.cryptoparty.se/b/upd-0mo-m2u-aq8 The Oldenburg Computer Museum ? Rearing and Care The Oldenburg Computer Museum (OCM) is a German computer museum founded in 2008 and run by volunteers. This talk presents a historical outline of the founding of the OCM. From building up the collection to opening the first exhibition to founding the supporting association and moving to the current premises ? and the professionalisation that goes with it. Thiemo Eddiks presents the didactic concept, explains the museum work in the team and gives insights into and outlooks on current projects. In addition, he talks about problems associated with running a museum as a hobby. Thiemo Eddiks (Oldenburg Computer Museum) The lecture is free and open to everyone. Upcoming: 2021-07-10, 19:00: How I ported Space Invaders to a video game console from 1978. Bjarni Juliusson (Update) Hope to see you there, Anke [0] http://www.update.uu.se/index_eng.html [1] https://www.update.uu.se/wiki/doku.php/projekt:updateringar From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jun 10 17:56:49 2021 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 18:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum Message-ID: https://www.mact.io/ Hi folks! We've been away from Facebook for awhile, but we've been staying busy here. Now that things are starting to get back to normal from the disruption of Covid19, we're doing tours again, and we're getting our volunteer work days rolling again, restoring more and more vintage systems for you to enjoy. However, we're in a bit of a pickle, and we need your help. Our main floor air conditioning system has died, and is beyond repair. It's a 40-year-old power hungry system anyway, so it really just needs to be replaced. We have a quote in-hand from a local, reputable A/C contractor for a brand new, ultra-efficient system, and we're trying to raise funds for it, about $8500. We're already about halfway there from recent private donations. If we're unable to get the rest of the way there, we'll have no choice but to close for the summer. As an all-volunteer, donation-funded nonprofit educational organization, we depend on your support to keep doing what we do. Please help us if you can. We accept donations via PayPal to donations at mact.io, or via check/money order made out to Museum of Applied Computer Technology, mailed to the museum at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068. Any overage will be put toward our utility bills and other operating expenses. LSSM/MACT is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Thank you, -Dave McGuire President/Curator, LSSM/MACT From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 15:22:05 2021 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 16:22:05 -0400 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed Message-ID: I am currently working on an IBM 5100 that has some issues. I know for certain that the 5100 has a bad graphics controller card so I need to dig into component level replacements for those ICs I can replace. I have a list of logic chip equivalents to the IBM part numbers that are written on the chips but I don't think it's 100% accurate because IBM part number 1582601 comes back as 74151 "DATA SEL/MUX" but when I use one of those cheap logic chip testers (that is surprisingly accurate), it comes back as a 74157. For the record, if I test a 74151, it comes back as a 74151 so the tester is correct. I just want to make sure the table I have is accurate and that the tester is not 100% accurate or if that chip has failed and tests like a 74157 in it's state. This is the current list I am using that I got from somewhere but I don't recall where: https://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-vintage-logic-chip-equivalency-list/ Does anyone have an IBM logic chip equivalency table for 74 series logic chips? Any help is much appreciated. Santo From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 15:29:02 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 17:29:02 -0300 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bf5bef6-cca4-45fa-ade3-f393c7fc2465@gmail.com> My reliable list says your cheap logic tester is right 1582601 = 74157 Paul. On 2021-06-11 5:22 p.m., Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > I am currently working on an IBM 5100 that has some issues. I know for > certain that the 5100 has a bad graphics controller card so I need to dig > into component level replacements for those ICs I can replace. I have a > list of logic chip equivalents to the IBM part numbers that are written on > the chips but I don't think it's 100% accurate because IBM part number > 1582601 comes back as 74151 "DATA SEL/MUX" but when I use one of those > cheap logic chip testers (that is surprisingly accurate), it comes back as > a 74157. For the record, if I test a 74151, it comes back as a 74151 so the > tester is correct. I just want to make sure the table I have is accurate > and that the tester is not 100% accurate or if that chip has failed and > tests like a 74157 in it's state. > > This is the current list I am using that I got from somewhere but I don't > recall where: > https://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-vintage-logic-chip-equivalency-list/ > Does anyone have an IBM logic chip equivalency table for 74 series logic > chips? > > Any help is much appreciated. > Santo From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 15:32:27 2021 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 16:32:27 -0400 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: <9bf5bef6-cca4-45fa-ade3-f393c7fc2465@gmail.com> References: <9bf5bef6-cca4-45fa-ade3-f393c7fc2465@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for the quick reply. As soon as you wrote that, I checked my list again and I have two entries for 74151. The other is 2392121 which I assume is the right one? Would you mind sharing your list? I can cross-reference and see how accurate mine is. Thanks again, Santo On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 4:29 PM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My reliable list says your cheap logic tester is right 1582601 = 74157 > > Paul. > > On 2021-06-11 5:22 p.m., Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > I am currently working on an IBM 5100 that has some issues. I know for > > certain that the 5100 has a bad graphics controller card so I need to dig > > into component level replacements for those ICs I can replace. I have a > > list of logic chip equivalents to the IBM part numbers that are written > on > > the chips but I don't think it's 100% accurate because IBM part number > > 1582601 comes back as 74151 "DATA SEL/MUX" but when I use one of those > > cheap logic chip testers (that is surprisingly accurate), it comes back > as > > a 74157. For the record, if I test a 74151, it comes back as a 74151 so > the > > tester is correct. I just want to make sure the table I have is accurate > > and that the tester is not 100% accurate or if that chip has failed and > > tests like a 74157 in it's state. > > > > This is the current list I am using that I got from somewhere but I don't > > recall where: > > https://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-vintage-logic-chip-equivalency-list/ > > Does anyone have an IBM logic chip equivalency table for 74 series logic > > chips? > > > > Any help is much appreciated. > > Santo > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jun 11 18:39:47 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 18:39:47 -0500 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> On 6/11/21 3:22 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: The 74151 is an 8:1 multiplexer with complementary outputs. The 74157 is a quad 2:1 mux. I can't imagine any defect that would cause one to test out as the other. Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jun 11 21:42:33 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:42:33 -0400 Subject: Anyone need a 10 tape Compaq DLT drive with changer cart? Message-ID: <36e89e74-6b5e-20e0-087a-72091a33a7f2@alembic.crystel.com> Hi! Dragged out my old Compaq DAT tape drive and although it powers up some of the rubber wheels have turned to goo. Since I don't have any reason to fix it I thought I'd offer it here for shipping. Compaq 3000 series, this is a 199527-003, rebadged HP tape changer. It got a 10 tape capacity changer cartridge, powers up, moves the tape cart, however throws an error 40 because the rubber is gone. One of the wheels is liquid but intact so you can probably measure the OD to install a spare. Anyone want it? Or it goes in the recycling. CZ From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 22:45:39 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 04:45:39 +0100 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:39 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/11/21 3:22 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > The 74151 is an 8:1 multiplexer with complementary outputs. > > The 74157 is a quad 2:1 mux. > > I can't imagine any defect that would cause one to test out > as the other. In both cases it would require an input pin to become an output, something that I can't see how it would happen. I wonder if in the original list, a '1' was misread as a '7' or vice versa. I am told that in some countries the '7' is conventionally written with a crossbar across the downstroke to avoid this. My father always did this, for all it is not common in England. -tony > > > Jon > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 11 22:51:09 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 20:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jun 2021, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > In both cases it would require an input pin to become an output, > something that I can't see how it would happen. > > I wonder if in the original list, a '1' was misread as a '7' or vice > versa. I am told that in some countries the '7' is conventionally > written with a crossbar across the downstroke to avoid this. My father > always did this, for all it is not common in England. 50 years ago, I worked for a British physicist who was studying the Van Allen belts at Goddard Space Flight Center. He crossed his '7's. But, he thought it odd when I slashed zeroes. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jun 12 03:54:29 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 10:54:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2021, Santo Nucifora wrote: > I am currently working on an IBM 5100 that has some issues. I know for > certain that the 5100 has a bad graphics controller card so I need to dig > into component level replacements for those ICs I can replace. I have a > list of logic chip equivalents to the IBM part numbers that are written on > the chips but I don't think it's 100% accurate because IBM part number > 1582601 comes back as 74151 "DATA SEL/MUX" but when I use one of those > cheap logic chip testers (that is surprisingly accurate), it comes back as > a 74157. For the record, if I test a 74151, it comes back as a 74151 so the > tester is correct. I just want to make sure the table I have is accurate > and that the tester is not 100% accurate or if that chip has failed and > tests like a 74157 in it's state. > > This is the current list I am using that I got from somewhere but I don't > recall where: > https://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-vintage-logic-chip-equivalency-list/ > Does anyone have an IBM logic chip equivalency table for 74 series logic > chips? This list looks like a faulty transcription of my list here: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ibm/ibmparts.txt In my list, it is "1582601 74157 DATA SEL/MUX". This list came from some IBM internal copies with unknown source. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jun 12 03:58:23 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 10:58:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jun 2021, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if in the original list, a '1' was misread as a '7' or vice > versa. I am told that in some countries the '7' is conventionally > written with a crossbar across the downstroke to avoid this. My father > always did this, for all it is not common in England. In Germany, we *always* write a bar across the 7. I don't like uncrossed sevens because they are ugly ;-) and hard to distinguish from a 1. Christian From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Jun 12 06:01:11 2021 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 07:01:11 -0400 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for that link Christian. I've seen your list before but couldn't find it and the website I got this transcribed list from is long gone. I'll check your list against what I have and make sure the one I have posted is accurate and post a link to yours, if that's okay. Santo On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 4:54 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jun 2021, Santo Nucifora wrote: > > I am currently working on an IBM 5100 that has some issues. I know for > > certain that the 5100 has a bad graphics controller card so I need to dig > > into component level replacements for those ICs I can replace. I have a > > list of logic chip equivalents to the IBM part numbers that are written > on > > the chips but I don't think it's 100% accurate because IBM part number > > 1582601 comes back as 74151 "DATA SEL/MUX" but when I use one of those > > cheap logic chip testers (that is surprisingly accurate), it comes back > as > > a 74157. For the record, if I test a 74151, it comes back as a 74151 so > the > > tester is correct. I just want to make sure the table I have is accurate > > and that the tester is not 100% accurate or if that chip has failed and > > tests like a 74157 in it's state. > > > > This is the current list I am using that I got from somewhere but I don't > > recall where: > > https://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-vintage-logic-chip-equivalency-list/ > > Does anyone have an IBM logic chip equivalency table for 74 series logic > > chips? > > This list looks like a faulty transcription of my list here: > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ibm/ibmparts.txt > > In my list, it is "1582601 74157 DATA SEL/MUX". > This list came from some IBM internal copies with unknown source. > > Christian > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 12 11:24:38 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 09:24:38 -0700 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <08c559d0-4b38-2eb9-514f-6347ce170c20@sydex.com> On 6/12/21 1:58 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jun 2021, Tony Duell wrote: >> I wonder if in the original list, a '1' was misread as a '7' or vice >> versa. I am told that in some countries the '7' is conventionally >> written with a crossbar across the downstroke to avoid this. My father >> always did this, for all it is not common in England. > > In Germany, we *always* write a bar across the 7. I don't like uncrossed > sevens because they are ugly ;-) and hard to distinguish from a 1. I do stroke my sevens just for clarity. However, here in the US, few people write their ones with a serif--just a single vertical stroke. That, in my experience is not common practice in many European countries. Writing zero with a slash, by the same token, probably leaves the Scandanavian readers puzzled--as "oh" stroked is a letter of the alphabet. Regardless, I stroked mine--a more universal practice might have been to write zero with a horizontal or vertical stroke. I recall turning in keypunch forms to be punched and receiving my job back with a note saying "I didn't know if you meant zero or oh, so a did some of both". Wastebasket meet card deck. After that, I pretty much did all my own keypunching; management didn't like that, but I persisted. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 01:07:12 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 08:07:12 +0200 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Den l?r 12 juni 2021 kl 10:54 skrev Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > On Fri, 11 Jun 2021, Santo Nucifora wrote: > > I am currently working on an IBM 5100 that has some issues. I know for > > certain that the 5100 has a bad graphics controller card so I need to dig > > into component level replacements for those ICs I can replace. I have a > > list of logic chip equivalents to the IBM part numbers that are written > on > > the chips but I don't think it's 100% accurate because IBM part number > > 1582601 comes back as 74151 "DATA SEL/MUX" but when I use one of those > > cheap logic chip testers (that is surprisingly accurate), it comes back > as > > a 74157. For the record, if I test a 74151, it comes back as a 74151 so > the > > tester is correct. I just want to make sure the table I have is accurate > > and that the tester is not 100% accurate or if that chip has failed and > > tests like a 74157 in it's state. > > > > This is the current list I am using that I got from somewhere but I don't > > recall where: > > https://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-vintage-logic-chip-equivalency-list/ > > Does anyone have an IBM logic chip equivalency table for 74 series logic > > chips? > > This list looks like a faulty transcription of my list here: > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ibm/ibmparts.txt > > In my list, it is "1582601 74157 DATA SEL/MUX". > This list came from some IBM internal copies with unknown source. > Thanks for the list Christian! I have a broken 5110 PSU here. Unfortunately it is not covering any of the chips in the IBM 5110 Switch mode PSU. There are three metal cans numbered 1582779, 1582780 and 1582781. 16 pin types. Then there are four 361497 which I think is just three transistors and some resistors (at least that is what a picture I have seen is indicating). The latter type is 12 pin. Anyone that has a clue what the 15827xx are? https://i.imgur.com/MexGosO.jpg /Mattis > Christian > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 13 12:22:56 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 10:22:56 -0700 Subject: Disk drives, keypunch offered in SF bay area: Message-ID: This fellow-s been posting on VCF; thus far, he's offered a pair of Perkin-Elmer disk drives and a USB-modified 029 keypunch. Stuff is pickup-ony by July 8. The drives: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sop/d/los-altos-perkin-elmer-interdata-vt2222/7336069902.html --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jun 13 12:54:22 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 13:54:22 -0400 Subject: Disk drives, keypunch offered in SF bay area: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37a8f822-e46c-1cf0-e69f-d910a06ecaab@alembic.crystel.com> Hey, I got one of those. Diablo 33 or something like that. And a Q bus controller that emulates 4 RK05's per assembly (5mb fixed head, 5mb removable) Big question is how can we get them from SF to MD? Any thoughts? On 6/13/2021 1:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > This fellow-s been posting on VCF; thus far, he's offered a pair of > Perkin-Elmer disk drives and a USB-modified 029 keypunch. Stuff is > pickup-ony by July 8. > > The drives: > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sop/d/los-altos-perkin-elmer-interdata-vt2222/7336069902.html > > --Chuck > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 15:07:49 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 13:07:49 -0700 Subject: Disk drives, keypunch offered in SF bay area: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45180F48-4FE1-4CF1-85AF-994BEFFF7EA1@gmail.com> That must be Carl?s. He is lightening up his collection in anticipation of a move. He has some great items. He just sold a fully functioning HP 1000F system in two racks. Marc > On Jun 13, 2021, at 10:23 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ? > This fellow-s been posting on VCF; thus far, he's offered a pair of > Perkin-Elmer disk drives and a USB-modified 029 keypunch. Stuff is > pickup-ony by July 8. > > The drives: > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sop/d/los-altos-perkin-elmer-interdata-vt2222/7336069902.html > > --Chuck > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Jun 13 15:44:08 2021 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 15:44:08 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> I am working on the first of my two 11/05s. Interestingly, it has the early version M7261E Control Logic & Microprogram board and the later version M7260 Data Paths board (with circular baud rate selector switch) as described in: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-B_CPU >From the description there, it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all work together, but maybe they do? I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the two boards. Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times it does not. It does have bit 1 stuck ON in memory, but that should be a relatively simple task to diagnose as it is not intermittent. When the machine is "working" I am able to deposit 0777 at 0100 and run. When running this simple program, I've experimented with flexing the boards and such, so it doesn't seem like an obvious poor connection, but that remains to be seen. The machine is a configuration #2 model (as described in the "gunkies" site) and my initial messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too? Thanks much to those who have provided details and documents on the web, they have already been of great value and will most certainly continue to be a resource in the future. More updates in the future... --tom On 5/6/16 5:32 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. > > Eh, de nada. But thank you. > > > >> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip > >> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit > >> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does > >> anyone happen to know? > > OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make things > worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PROMs. > > For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the > same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) > numbers are all different. > > For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' > version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently > with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in > different DEC part numbers). For details see: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs > > to which I have just added all the gory details. > > As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable form - > oi vey! > > > >> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints > >> online > > It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of the > M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" > etch revision. > > I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up 'soon'. > (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of them are > for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) > > Noel > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 15:59:41 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 16:59:41 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: It's no gunkies but I wrote up a few notes about my 11/05 variants and support issues here: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/. Bill On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 4:44 PM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I am working on the first of my two 11/05s. Interestingly, it has the > early version M7261E Control > Logic & Microprogram board and the later version M7260 Data Paths board > (with circular baud rate > selector switch) as described in: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-B_CPU > > From the description there, it seems like an older/newer combination, but > maybe that was common. I > would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all work > together, but maybe they do? > > I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have > the matching M7260 > schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E > schematic: > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf > > The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that > they match what is in the > two boards. > > Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times it > does not. It does have bit > 1 stuck ON in memory, but that should be a relatively simple task to > diagnose as it is not > intermittent. When the machine is "working" I am able to deposit 0777 at > 0100 and run. When running > this simple program, I've experimented with flexing the boards and such, > so it doesn't seem like an > obvious poor connection, but that remains to be seen. > > The machine is a configuration #2 model (as described in the "gunkies" > site) and my initial messing > with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the microcode with a KM11 in > either the #1 or #2 position, > but when two KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function > properly together. Is this > expected or do I have an issue there too? > > Thanks much to those who have provided details and documents on the web, > they have already been of > great value and will most certainly continue to be a resource in the > future. > > More updates in the future... > > --tom > > On 5/6/16 5:32 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Mattis Lind > > > > > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. > > > > Eh, de nada. But thank you. > > > > > > >> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM > chip > > >> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, > albeit > > >> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. > Does > > >> anyone happen to know? > > > > OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make > things > > worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of > PROMs. > > > > For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain > the > > same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) > > numbers are all different. > > > > For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' > > version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but > apparently > > with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected > in > > different DEC part numbers). For details see: > > > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs > > > > to which I have just added all the gory details. > > > > As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable > form - > > oi vey! > > > > > > >> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 > prints > > >> online > > > > It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of > the > > M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" > > etch revision. > > > > I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up > 'soon'. > > (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of > them are > > for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) > > > > Noel > > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jun 14 08:19:11 2021 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:19:11 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Thanks Bill, nice read. Did you get your RK11/RK05 up and running on the 11/05? My 11/05s both have the low profile side mounted chassis, which I find makes them nice and compact, but limits their expansion without another cabinet. --tom On 6/13/21 3:59 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > It's no gunkies but I wrote up a few notes about my 11/05 variants and support issues here: > ?https://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/ . > > Bill > > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 4:44 PM Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > > I am working on the first of my two 11/05s. Interestingly, it has the early version M7261E Control > Logic & Microprogram board and the later version M7260 Data Paths board (with circular baud rate > selector switch) as described in: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-B_CPU > > >From the description there, it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was > common. I > would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all work together, but maybe > they do? > > I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 > schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf > > > The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the > two boards. > > Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times it does not. It does > have bit > 1 stuck ON in memory, but that should be a relatively simple task to diagnose as it is not > intermittent. When the machine is "working" I am able to deposit 0777 at 0100 and run. When > running > this simple program, I've experimented with flexing the boards and such, so it doesn't seem > like an > obvious poor connection, but that remains to be seen. > > The machine is a configuration #2 model (as described in the "gunkies" site) and my initial > messing > with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 > position, > but when two KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly together. Is this > expected or do I have an issue there too? > > Thanks much to those who have provided details and documents on the web, they have already been of > great value and will most certainly continue to be a resource in the future. > > More updates in the future... > > --tom > > On 5/6/16 5:32 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >? ? ?> From: Mattis Lind > > > >? ? ?> Thanks Noel for sorting this out. > > > > Eh, de nada. But thank you. > > > > > >? ? ?>> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip > >? ? ?>> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit > >? ? ?>> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does > >? ? ?>> anyone happen to know? > > > > OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make things > > worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PROMs. > > > > For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the > > same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) > > numbers are all different. > > > > For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' > > version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently > > with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in > > different DEC part numbers). For details see: > > > >? ?http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs > > > > > to which I have just added all the gory details. > > > > As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable form - > > oi vey! > > > > > >? ? ?>> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints > >? ? ?>> online > > > > It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of the > > M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" > > etch revision. > > > > I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up 'soon'. > > (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of them are > > for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) > > > >? ? ? ?Noel > > > From jay-cctalk0092 at toaster.com Mon Jun 14 10:37:29 2021 From: jay-cctalk0092 at toaster.com (Jay Logue) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:37:29 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: I also have an 11/05 with the early CPU boards that exhibited stuck bits on arrival.? Turned out to be bad transistors in the inhibit circuits on the G110.? Pretty easy fix once I tracked it down. So far I've found the GT40 print set to be a fairly accurate, at least for the boards I have. I'll be curious to learn how your serial console works.? Mine had a manufacturing defect that had to be corrected before input would work. --Jay On 6/13/2021 1:44 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I am working on the first of my two 11/05s. Interestingly, it has the early version M7261E Control > Logic & Microprogram board and the later version M7260 Data Paths board (with circular baud rate > selector switch) as described in: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-B_CPU > > From the description there, it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I > would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all work together, but maybe they do? > > I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 > schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf > > The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the > two boards. > > Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times it does not. It does have bit > 1 stuck ON in memory, but that should be a relatively simple task to diagnose as it is not > intermittent. When the machine is "working" I am able to deposit 0777 at 0100 and run. When running > this simple program, I've experimented with flexing the boards and such, so it doesn't seem like an > obvious poor connection, but that remains to be seen. > > The machine is a configuration #2 model (as described in the "gunkies" site) and my initial messing > with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, > but when two KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly together. Is this > expected or do I have an issue there too? > > Thanks much to those who have provided details and documents on the web, they have already been of > great value and will most certainly continue to be a resource in the future. > > More updates in the future... > > --tom > > On 5/6/16 5:32 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Mattis Lind >> >> > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. >> >> Eh, de nada. But thank you. >> >> >> >> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip >> >> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit >> >> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does >> >> anyone happen to know? >> >> OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make things >> worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PROMs. >> >> For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the >> same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) >> numbers are all different. >> >> For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' >> version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently >> with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in >> different DEC part numbers). For details see: >> >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs >> >> to which I have just added all the gory details. >> >> As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable form - >> oi vey! >> >> >> >> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints >> >> online >> >> It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of the >> M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" >> etch revision. >> >> I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up 'soon'. >> (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of them are >> for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) >> >> Noel >> From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Mon Jun 14 11:14:17 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 11:14:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <10ace768-c207-a539-a3a5-b38dacb9dbe8@figureeightbrewing.com> I'm not to the point of connecting serial yet, but I did see this page which will help me turn the current loop to rs232 when the time comes: http://retrocmp.com/how-tos/interfacing-to-a-pdp-1105 --tom On 6/14/21 10:37 AM, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: > I also have an 11/05 with the early CPU boards that exhibited stuck bits on arrival.? Turned out > to be bad transistors in the inhibit circuits on the G110.? Pretty easy fix once I tracked it > down. So far I've found the GT40 print set to be a fairly accurate, at least for the boards I have. > > I'll be curious to learn how your serial console works.? Mine had a manufacturing defect that had > to be corrected before input would work. > > --Jay > > On 6/13/2021 1:44 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> I am working on the first of my two 11/05s. Interestingly, it has the early version M7261E Control >> Logic & Microprogram board and the later version M7260 Data Paths board (with circular baud rate >> selector switch) as described in: >> >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-B_CPU >> >> ?From the description there, it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I >> would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all work together, but maybe >> they do? >> >> I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 >> schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf >> >> The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the >> two boards. >> >> Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times it does not. It does have bit >> 1 stuck ON in memory, but that should be a relatively simple task to diagnose as it is not >> intermittent. When the machine is "working" I am able to deposit 0777 at 0100 and run. When running >> this simple program, I've experimented with flexing the boards and such, so it doesn't seem like an >> obvious poor connection, but that remains to be seen. >> >> The machine is a configuration #2 model (as described in the "gunkies" site) and my initial messing >> with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, >> but when two KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly together. Is this >> expected or do I have an issue there too? >> >> Thanks much to those who have provided details and documents on the web, they have already been of >> great value and will most certainly continue to be a resource in the future. >> >> More updates in the future... >> >> --tom >> >> On 5/6/16 5:32 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> ???? > From: Mattis Lind >>> >>> ???? > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. >>> >>> Eh, de nada. But thank you. >>> >>> >>> ???? >> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip >>> ???? >> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit >>> ???? >> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does >>> ???? >> anyone happen to know? >>> >>> OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make things >>> worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PROMs. >>> >>> For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the >>> same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) >>> numbers are all different. >>> >>> For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' >>> version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently >>> with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in >>> different DEC part numbers). For details see: >>> >>> ?? http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs >>> >>> to which I have just added all the gory details. >>> >>> As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable form - >>> oi vey! >>> >>> >>> ???? >> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints >>> ???? >> online >>> >>> It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of the >>> M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" >>> etch revision. >>> >>> I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up 'soon'. >>> (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of them are >>> for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) >>> >>> ????Noel >>> > From jay at toaster.com Mon Jun 14 12:08:46 2021 From: jay at toaster.com (Jay Logue) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 10:08:46 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <10ace768-c207-a539-a3a5-b38dacb9dbe8@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> <10ace768-c207-a539-a3a5-b38dacb9dbe8@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <7a2d230f-54ab-4d02-9932-585409a9233f@toaster.com> No need to convert current loop, as the outputs from the 11/05 console are (roughly) TTL compatible.? All you need is a level shifter such as a MAX232 and an inverter (although this will only give you 2400 baud max). I built a simple console to USB adapter using a Teensy that works quite well if you're interfacing with a terminal program running on a modern computer.? With this you can run up to 38400 baud. Details are here: https://github.com/jaylogue/pdp-1105-console-usb-adapter --Jay On 6/14/2021 9:14 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > I'm not to the point of connecting serial yet, but I did see this page which will help me turn the > current loop to rs232 when the time comes: > http://retrocmp.com/how-tos/interfacing-to-a-pdp-1105 > > --tom > > On 6/14/21 10:37 AM, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: >> I also have an 11/05 with the early CPU boards that exhibited stuck bits on arrival.? Turned out >> to be bad transistors in the inhibit circuits on the G110.? Pretty easy fix once I tracked it >> down. So far I've found the GT40 print set to be a fairly accurate, at least for the boards I have. >> >> I'll be curious to learn how your serial console works.? Mine had a manufacturing defect that had >> to be corrected before input would work. >> >> --Jay >> >> On 6/13/2021 1:44 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>> I am working on the first of my two 11/05s. Interestingly, it has the early version M7261E Control >>> Logic & Microprogram board and the later version M7260 Data Paths board (with circular baud rate >>> selector switch) as described in: >>> >>> http://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-B_CPU >>> >>> ?From the description there, it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I >>> would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all work together, but maybe >>> they do? >>> >>> I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 >>> schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: >>> >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf >>> >>> The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the >>> two boards. >>> >>> Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times it does not. It does have bit >>> 1 stuck ON in memory, but that should be a relatively simple task to diagnose as it is not >>> intermittent. When the machine is "working" I am able to deposit 0777 at 0100 and run. When running >>> this simple program, I've experimented with flexing the boards and such, so it doesn't seem like an >>> obvious poor connection, but that remains to be seen. >>> >>> The machine is a configuration #2 model (as described in the "gunkies" site) and my initial messing >>> with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, >>> but when two KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly together. Is this >>> expected or do I have an issue there too? >>> >>> Thanks much to those who have provided details and documents on the web, they have already been of >>> great value and will most certainly continue to be a resource in the future. >>> >>> More updates in the future... >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> On 5/6/16 5:32 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>>> ???? > From: Mattis Lind >>>> >>>> ???? > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. >>>> >>>> Eh, de nada. But thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> ???? >> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip >>>> ???? >> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit >>>> ???? >> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does >>>> ???? >> anyone happen to know? >>>> >>>> OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make things >>>> worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PROMs. >>>> >>>> For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the >>>> same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) >>>> numbers are all different. >>>> >>>> For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' >>>> version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently >>>> with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in >>>> different DEC part numbers). For details see: >>>> >>>> ?? http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs >>>> >>>> to which I have just added all the gory details. >>>> >>>> As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable form - >>>> oi vey! >>>> >>>> >>>> ???? >> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints >>>> ???? >> online >>>> >>>> It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of the >>>> M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" >>>> etch revision. >>>> >>>> I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up 'soon'. >>>> (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of them are >>>> for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) >>>> >>>> ????Noel >>>> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jun 14 15:39:20 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 16:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) Message-ID: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tom Uban > it has the early version M7261E Control Logic & Microprogram board and > the later version M7260 Data Paths board Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As always, I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but do be on the lookout for errors! > it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I > would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all > work together, but maybe they do? I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation doesn't even _mention_ the two different board generations; perhaps a sign that they are functionally interchangeable? (Although even the section on baud rate, in both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11, doesn't even mention the early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version completely?) I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and see if they all work. > Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times > it does not. What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a 'scope to fix it; I expect you have one?) I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and make sure it's running when the failure happens. (Note that the front console is handled by the microcode, so if the microcode isn't running, the machine will be totally dead. EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.) > my initial messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the > microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two > KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly > together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too? Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have the same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and on 5-7 "permits the user who has only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or KM-2". So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The first indicates that the switches, the only input to the KD11-B from the KM11, are wired in parallel, and the only other thing on the KM11 are the lights, outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is no use because one can't use two at once? Noel From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Mon Jun 14 15:55:59 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 15:55:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 6/14/21 3:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Tom Uban > > > it has the early version M7261E Control Logic & Microprogram board and > > the later version M7260 Data Paths board > > Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As always, > I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but do be on the lookout for > errors! I most certainly did - thank you for creating it! > > it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I > > would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all > > work together, but maybe they do? > > I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation doesn't > even _mention_ the two different board generations; perhaps a sign that they > are functionally interchangeable? (Although even the section on baud rate, in > both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11, doesn't even mention the > early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version completely?) > > I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and see > if they all work. > > > Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times > > it does not. > > What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a 'scope > to fix it; I expect you have one?) I have KM11s, a scope, a logic analyzer, a unibone, shiresoft unibus analyzer, etc. No shortage of gear, just a shortage of time. > I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and make sure it's running when the > failure happens. (Note that the front console is handled by the microcode, so > if the microcode isn't running, the machine will be totally dead. > EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.) I think I checked the clock when I started this project a while back, but I will check it again. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to provoke two states, but it mostly picks the completely dysfunctional state, so I'll look at the clock. > > my initial messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the > > microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two > > KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly > > together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too? > > Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf > > and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have the > same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and on 5-7 "permits the user who has > only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or KM-2". > > So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The first > indicates that the switches, the only input to the KD11-B from the KM11, are > wired in parallel, and the only other thing on the KM11 are the lights, > outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is no > use because one can't use two at once? I've read that doc, but did not come away with the impression that both can be used at the same time or not. My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and if you look, switches S3 and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground, so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2. Alas, using only one KM11 at a time is fine and I will be able to make progress in that way. --tom > Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 15 01:26:12 2021 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 08:26:12 +0200 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210615062612.n6m32k7xcsbs57lx@Update.UU.SE> Hi Donated a (small) amount. I know, from experience with, Update Computer Club) knows what no cooling and big computers can be like :) Will you keep us updated on progress? Good Luck, Pontus On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 06:56:49PM -0400, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.mact.io/ > > Hi folks! We've been away from Facebook for awhile, but we've been > staying busy here. Now that things are starting to get back to normal from > the disruption of Covid19, we're doing tours again, and we're getting our > volunteer work days rolling again, restoring more and more vintage systems > for you to enjoy. > > However, we're in a bit of a pickle, and we need your help. Our main > floor air conditioning system has died, and is beyond repair. It's a > 40-year-old power hungry system anyway, so it really just needs to be > replaced. We have a quote in-hand from a local, reputable A/C contractor > for a brand new, ultra-efficient system, and we're trying to raise funds > for it, about $8500. We're already about halfway there from recent private > donations. If we're unable to get the rest of the way there, we'll have no > choice but to close for the summer. > > As an all-volunteer, donation-funded nonprofit educational organization, > we depend on your support to keep doing what we do. Please help us if you > can. We accept donations via PayPal to donations at mact.io, or via > check/money order made out to Museum of Applied Computer Technology, mailed > to the museum at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068. > > Any overage will be put toward our utility bills and other operating > expenses. LSSM/MACT is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. > > Thank you, > -Dave McGuire > President/Curator, LSSM/MACT From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 15 01:31:20 2021 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 08:31:20 +0200 Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum In-Reply-To: <20210615062612.n6m32k7xcsbs57lx@Update.UU.SE> References: <20210615062612.n6m32k7xcsbs57lx@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20210615063120.vrassypg3jnpgkbt@Update.UU.SE> Wow, my coffee has not kicked in yet :D I meant to say: Update has cooling problems as well so I know how frustrating it can be. Regards, Pontus On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 08:26:12AM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > Donated a (small) amount. I know, from experience with, Update Computer > Club) knows what no cooling and big computers can be like :) > > Will you keep us updated on progress? > > Good Luck, > Pontus > > On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 06:56:49PM -0400, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > > > https://www.mact.io/ > > > > Hi folks! We've been away from Facebook for awhile, but we've been > > staying busy here. Now that things are starting to get back to normal from > > the disruption of Covid19, we're doing tours again, and we're getting our > > volunteer work days rolling again, restoring more and more vintage systems > > for you to enjoy. > > > > However, we're in a bit of a pickle, and we need your help. Our main > > floor air conditioning system has died, and is beyond repair. It's a > > 40-year-old power hungry system anyway, so it really just needs to be > > replaced. We have a quote in-hand from a local, reputable A/C contractor > > for a brand new, ultra-efficient system, and we're trying to raise funds > > for it, about $8500. We're already about halfway there from recent private > > donations. If we're unable to get the rest of the way there, we'll have no > > choice but to close for the summer. > > > > As an all-volunteer, donation-funded nonprofit educational organization, > > we depend on your support to keep doing what we do. Please help us if you > > can. We accept donations via PayPal to donations at mact.io, or via > > check/money order made out to Museum of Applied Computer Technology, mailed > > to the museum at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068. > > > > Any overage will be put toward our utility bills and other operating > > expenses. LSSM/MACT is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. > > > > Thank you, > > -Dave McGuire > > President/Curator, LSSM/MACT From w9gb at icloud.com Tue Jun 15 05:29:48 2021 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 05:29:48 -0500 Subject: Memorex Telex IDE 711186669587 ISA controller Message-ID: The recently acquired a Memorex Telex IDE ISA controller (early 1990s), number 711186669587 , that has an unpopulated floppy / tape controller area on the board. The board has 34-pin internal header and DC-37 for external drive. I would like to populate those missing components on the PC board. I could reverse engineer the design, and ?fill in blanks? of the likely floppy/tape controller. The PLCC package (44-pin) is likely a late model chipset (tape/floppy). A schematic, parts list, or manual would shorten the effort for this board. Greg chicago From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 15 07:36:24 2021 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 08:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum In-Reply-To: <20210615063120.vrassypg3jnpgkbt@Update.UU.SE> References: <20210615062612.n6m32k7xcsbs57lx@Update.UU.SE> <20210615063120.vrassypg3jnpgkbt@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Dave McGuire of the LSSM reports: "We are THIS CLOSE --> <-- to having the A/C funded! Soon we will be able to hack in comfort. :-)" On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Wow, my coffee has not kicked in yet :D > > I meant to say: Update has cooling problems as well so I know how > frustrating it can be. > > Regards, > Pontus > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 08:26:12AM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >> Hi >> >> Donated a (small) amount. I know, from experience with, Update Computer >> Club) knows what no cooling and big computers can be like :) >> >> Will you keep us updated on progress? >> >> Good Luck, >> Pontus >> >> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 06:56:49PM -0400, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> https://www.mact.io/ >>> >>> Hi folks! We've been away from Facebook for awhile, but we've been >>> staying busy here. Now that things are starting to get back to normal from >>> the disruption of Covid19, we're doing tours again, and we're getting our >>> volunteer work days rolling again, restoring more and more vintage systems >>> for you to enjoy. >>> >>> However, we're in a bit of a pickle, and we need your help. Our main >>> floor air conditioning system has died, and is beyond repair. It's a >>> 40-year-old power hungry system anyway, so it really just needs to be >>> replaced. We have a quote in-hand from a local, reputable A/C contractor >>> for a brand new, ultra-efficient system, and we're trying to raise funds >>> for it, about $8500. We're already about halfway there from recent private >>> donations. If we're unable to get the rest of the way there, we'll have no >>> choice but to close for the summer. >>> >>> As an all-volunteer, donation-funded nonprofit educational organization, >>> we depend on your support to keep doing what we do. Please help us if you >>> can. We accept donations via PayPal to donations at mact.io, or via >>> check/money order made out to Museum of Applied Computer Technology, mailed >>> to the museum at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068. >>> >>> Any overage will be put toward our utility bills and other operating >>> expenses. LSSM/MACT is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> -Dave McGuire >>> President/Curator, LSSM/MACT > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 08:58:47 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:58:47 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and if you look, switches S3 > and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground, > so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply > tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2. I took the switch circuits from the offical KM11 schematics which are either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace open-collector parts with totem-pole ones. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 09:15:39 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:15:39 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: While we are on the subject of pdp11/05's I am in the need of repair services for my M7261 KD11-B CPU board 1 (CONTROL LOGIC & MICROPROGRAMMED MODULE.) Bill On Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 9:59 AM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > > > My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and if you look, switches S3 > > and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to > ground, > > so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are > simply > > tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2. > > I took the switch circuits from the offical KM11 schematics which are > either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I > have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace > open-collector parts with totem-pole ones. > > -tony > From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Jun 15 10:47:38 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:47:38 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0ddb6aac-a3d9-e974-d904-9f1a21ece5e5@figureeightbrewing.com> On 6/15/21 8:58 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > >> My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and if you look, switches S3 >> and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground, >> so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply >> tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2. > I took the switch circuits from the offical KM11 schematics which are > either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I > have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace > open-collector parts with totem-pole ones. > > -tony I did not mean to imply that you had changed the behavior in your KM11 design. You are surely a competent and trusted pdp11 resource :) --tom From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 13:45:02 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:45:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <0ddb6aac-a3d9-e974-d904-9f1a21ece5e5@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0ddb6aac-a3d9-e974-d904-9f1a21ece5e5@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:47 PM Tom Uban wrote: > > On 6/15/21 8:58 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and if you look, switches S3 > >> and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground, > >> so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply > >> tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2. > > I took the switch circuits from the offical KM11 schematics which are > > either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I > > have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace > > open-collector parts with totem-pole ones. > > > > -tony > I did not mean to imply that you had changed the behavior in your KM11 design. > You are surely a competent and trusted pdp11 resource :) > I didn't mean to imply anythimg like that either. I was just confirming that my KM11-a-like and a real one will behave the same way, so if my version can't be used in pairs in an11/05, then the real one can't either.. I've been involved with classic computers for long enough to know that sometimes clones are not exactly identical to the real thing. I do have a pair of real KM11s now. Each is a pair of boards that plug together. The board that goes into the machine's backplane is discrete transistor lamp drivers, the one that plugs into it (and thus sticks out of the cardcage) contains the lamps, switches and ICs for the switch circuitry. I know where they are if you want me to confirm the IC numbers or whatever. -tony From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Jun 15 13:49:34 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:49:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0ddb6aac-a3d9-e974-d904-9f1a21ece5e5@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <19817c06-b037-eb3d-cebc-5464549002e1@figureeightbrewing.com> On 6/15/21 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:47 PM Tom Uban wrote: >> On 6/15/21 8:58 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:34 AM Tom Uban via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My KM11s are based on Tony Duell's schematic and if you look, switches S3 >>>> and S4 are both driving outputs rather than simply switching them to ground, >>>> so I don't think two boards at one time would work if these signals are simply >>>> tied in parallel on slots A2 and B2. >>> I took the switch circuits from the offical KM11 schematics which are >>> either in the PDP11/45 CPU printset or the RK11-C printset that I >>> have, I forget which. I certainly didn't add logic or replace >>> open-collector parts with totem-pole ones. >>> >>> -tony >> I did not mean to imply that you had changed the behavior in your KM11 design. >> You are surely a competent and trusted pdp11 resource :) >> > I didn't mean to imply anythimg like that either. I was just > confirming that my KM11-a-like and a real one will behave the same > way, so if my version can't be used in pairs in an11/05, then the real > one can't either.. I've been involved with classic computers for long > enough to know that sometimes clones are not exactly identical to the > real thing. > > I do have a pair of real KM11s now. Each is a pair of boards that plug > together. The board that goes into the machine's backplane is discrete > transistor lamp drivers, the one that plugs into it (and thus sticks > out of the cardcage) contains the lamps, switches and ICs for the > switch circuitry. I know where they are if you want me to confirm the > IC numbers or whatever. > > -tony Thank you for your offer, but I have one original KM11 (set) as well, but it is not functional. I think the transistors on the extender half have been mashed to many times and it is low in my priority list to fix as I have to of my own "reproduction" boards. --tom From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 14:02:11 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 12:02:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:34 PM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > On 6/14/21 3:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Tom Uban > > > > > it has the early version M7261E Control Logic & Microprogram board > and > > > the later version M7260 Data Paths board > > > > Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As > always, > > I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but do be on the lookout > for > > errors! > I most certainly did - thank you for creating it! > > > it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was > common. I > > > would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would > all > > > work together, but maybe they do? > > > > I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation > doesn't > > even _mention_ the two different board generations; perhaps a sign that > they > > are functionally interchangeable? (Although even the section on baud > rate, in > > both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11, doesn't even mention the > > early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version > completely?) > > > > I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and > see > > if they all work. > > > > > Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other > times > > > it does not. > > > > What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a > 'scope > > to fix it; I expect you have one?) > I have KM11s, a scope, a logic analyzer, a unibone, shiresoft unibus > analyzer, etc. > No shortage of gear, just a shortage of time. > > I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and make sure it's running when > the > > failure happens. (Note that the front console is handled by the > microcode, so > > if the microcode isn't running, the machine will be totally dead. > > EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.) > I think I checked the clock when I started this project a while back, but > I will > check it again. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to provoke two > states, > but it mostly picks the completely dysfunctional state, so I'll look at > the clock. > > > my initial messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the > > > microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two > > > KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly > > > together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too? > > > > Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at: > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf > > > > and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have > the > > same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and on 5-7 "permits the user who > has > > only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or KM-2". > > > > So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The > first > > indicates that the switches, the only input to the KD11-B from the KM11, > are > > wired in parallel, and the only other thing on the KM11 are the lights, > > outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is > no > > use because one can't use two at once? > I've read that doc, but did not come away with the impression that both > can be used at the same time or not. > Just to provide some real-world data, I used a pair of KM11's to debug my 11/05, see the picture here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg They worked fine. (These are clones, from Guy Sotomayor's kit.) I can verify tonight whether I have the earlier or later rev CPU set, if that helps. - Josh From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Jun 15 14:16:35 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:16:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <218c1470-b506-c678-8b8d-c298827b8975@figureeightbrewing.com> On 6/15/21 2:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:34 PM Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > > On 6/14/21 3:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >? ? ?> From: Tom Uban > > > >? ? ?> it has the early version M7261E Control Logic & Microprogram board and > >? ? ?> the later version M7260 Data Paths board > > > > Ah, I'm glad someone found all that stuff I wrote up there useful. As always, > > I _think_ I got it all transcribed correctly, but do be on the lookout for > > errors! > I most certainly did - thank you for creating it! > >? ? ?> it seems like an older/newer combination, but maybe that was common. I > >? ? ?> would not have guessed that the four possible combinations would all > >? ? ?> work together, but maybe they do? > > > > I honestly don't know. As far as I can tell, the DEC documentation doesn't > > even _mention_ the two different board generations; perhaps a sign that they > > are functionally interchangeable? (Although even the section on baud rate, in > > both DEC-11-HKDBB-A-D and EK-KD11B-MM-001, 4.11, doesn't even mention the > > early board. So maybe the manual just ignores the earlier version completely?) > > > > I don't have an /05 up and running at the moment, or I'd check all 4 and see > > if they all work. > > > >? ? ?> Presently, the machine sometimes runs relatively well and other times > >? ? ?> it does not. > > > > What are the failure symptoms? (It's almost certainly going to take a 'scope > > to fix it; I expect you have one?) > I have KM11s, a scope, a logic analyzer, a unibone, shiresoft unibus analyzer, etc. > No shortage of gear, just a shortage of time. > > I'd start by monitoring the CPU clock, and make sure it's running when the > > failure happens. (Note that the front console is handled by the microcode, so > > if the microcode isn't running, the machine will be totally dead. > > EK-KD11B-MM-001 has a good description of how that works.) > I think I checked the clock when I started this project a while back, but I will > check it again. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to provoke two states, > but it mostly picks the completely dysfunctional state, so I'll look at the clock. > >? ? ?> my initial messing with KM11 boards, reveals that I can step the > >? ? ?> microcode with a KM11 in either the #1 or #2 position, but when two > >? ? ?> KM11s are installed at the same time, they do not function properly > >? ? ?> together. Is this expected or do I have an issue there too? > > > > Not sure. EK-KD11B-MM-001 (available at: > > > >? ?http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf > > > > > and definitely something you need) says, at pg. 5-6 "KM11 switches have the > > same function in slots KM-1 and KM-2", and on 5-7 "permits the user who has > > only one KM11 to plug into either KM-1 or KM-2". > > > > So that _sounds_ like you should be able to plug two in together. The first > > indicates that the switches, the only input to the KD11-B from the KM11, are > > wired in parallel, and the only other thing on the KM11 are the lights, > > outputs. And why mention "user who has only one KM11", if having two is no > > use because one can't use two at once? > I've read that doc, but did not come away with the impression that both > can be used at the same time or not. > > > Just to provide some real-world data, I used a pair of KM11's to debug my 11/05, see the picture here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg > > They worked fine.? (These are clones, from Guy Sotomayor's kit.)? I can verify tonight whether I > have the earlier or later rev CPU set, if that helps. > > - Josh > Interesting! From your pic, you have the M7260 without the circular baud rate selector switch, but I cannot tell which M7261 board you have. Does the machine come up and run normally with the boards in and the switches all the disabled positions or do you have to do a special sequence to start? I will have to look at the schematics to see how the two slots connect to the processor on each of the board versions and maybe also take a look at Guy's KL11 schematic if it is on his site. --tnx --tom From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 15 16:41:19 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:41:19 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <218c1470-b506-c678-8b8d-c298827b8975@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <218c1470-b506-c678-8b8d-c298827b8975@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On 6/15/21 12:16 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > On 6/15/21 2:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Just to provide some real-world data, I used a pair of KM11's to debug my 11/05, see the picture here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/1105-debug.jpg >> >> They worked fine.? (These are clones, from Guy Sotomayor's kit.)? I can verify tonight whether I >> have the earlier or later rev CPU set, if that helps. >> >> - Josh >> > Interesting! From your pic, you have the M7260 without the circular baud rate selector switch, but I > cannot tell which M7261 board you have. > > Does the machine come up and run normally with the boards in and the switches all the disabled > positions or do you have to do a special sequence to start? > > I will have to look at the schematics to see how the two slots connect to the processor on each of > the board versions and maybe also take a look at Guy's KL11 schematic if it is on his site. The schematic should be in the user's manual for the KM11. -- TTFN - Guy From david at thecoolbears.org Wed Jun 16 09:39:14 2021 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 07:39:14 -0700 Subject: Sun 3/60 Up for Grabs Message-ID: I'm moving and I need to clean out a few things. I have a Sun 3/60 with no keyboard/mount/monitor/hard drive - just the pizza box. It net booted NetBSD, but that was many years ago so YRMV. Free for pick-up only in Queen Creek, AZ. From john at ziaspace.com Wed Jun 16 12:05:33 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (john at ziaspace.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 17:05:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Sun 3/60 Up for Grabs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm moving and I need to clean out a few things. > > I have a Sun 3/60 with no keyboard/mount/monitor/hard drive - just the > pizza box. It net booted NetBSD, but that was many years ago so YRMV. > > Free for pick-up only in Queen Creek, AZ. Is this still available? This is the kind of hardware I'd like to help preserve. Thanks, John Klos From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jun 16 16:00:17 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 16:00:17 -0500 Subject: DEC IC databook? In-Reply-To: <218c1470-b506-c678-8b8d-c298827b8975@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <218c1470-b506-c678-8b8d-c298827b8975@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <7aca5a47-6c7f-73b6-b565-01bcc8e1f8e7@figureeightbrewing.com> I was hoping to find DEC under components on bitsavers.org so that I could lookup some unknown to me DEC ICs (e.g. 8266, 8838, 9602). Is there a reference out there? --tnx --tom From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jun 16 16:19:44 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 16:19:44 -0500 Subject: DEC IC databook? In-Reply-To: <7aca5a47-6c7f-73b6-b565-01bcc8e1f8e7@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20210614203920.5C8AF18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <218c1470-b506-c678-8b8d-c298827b8975@figureeightbrewing.com> <7aca5a47-6c7f-73b6-b565-01bcc8e1f8e7@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On 6/16/21 4:00 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I was hoping to find DEC under components on bitsavers.org so that I could > lookup some unknown to me DEC ICs (e.g. 8266, 8838, 9602). Is there a > reference out there? > > --tnx > --tom The DS8838 is a standard National Semi part.? The 9602 was a standard Signetics part. I didn't find a reference to the 8266. Jon From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Jun 17 06:40:47 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 04:40:47 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales Message-ID: It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a favorite asking price? https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 3 Don Resor From steven at malikoff.com Thu Jun 17 06:57:36 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 21:57:36 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Tom said > I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 > schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf > > The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the > two boards. My original PDP-11/05 print set that came from the BHP steelworks is titled just 'PDP-11/05 Engineering Drawings' and the drawings are for machine revision 1105-0. It covers the early 11/05 with the cast metal grille with no slots (as seen in the 11/05 handbook) rather than the later 11/05 with the plastic slotted grille. The dates on the drawings are 1972 and some of the microcode listing dates are different to the 'PDP-11/05-S, 11/10-S systems engineering drawings' bitsavers scan and the GT-40 scan, and some of them are the same. I'm not sure where I look to see what revision of the M7261 it shows, as the Rev box in the bottom right seems to jump around, eg. Rev N, Rev K, Rev H or is that just the minor drawing revision for that page? Steve From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu Jun 17 07:41:10 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:41:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <57352e7f-3d2f-76b9-7188-a42a54e5bc8e@figureeightbrewing.com> On 6/17/21 6:57 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Tom said >> I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 >> schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf >> >> The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the >> two boards. > My original PDP-11/05 print set that came from the BHP steelworks is titled just 'PDP-11/05 Engineering > Drawings' and the drawings are for machine revision 1105-0. It covers the early 11/05 with the cast metal > grille with no slots (as seen in the 11/05 handbook) rather than the later 11/05 with the plastic slotted > grille. > The dates on the drawings are 1972 and some of the microcode listing dates are different to the 'PDP-11/05-S, > 11/10-S systems engineering drawings' bitsavers scan and the GT-40 scan, and some of them are the same. > > I'm not sure where I look to see what revision of the M7261 it shows, as the Rev box in the bottom right > seems to jump around, eg. Rev N, Rev K, Rev H or is that just the minor drawing revision for that page? > > Steve > If you look at the board layout for the M7261, the E rev board has a large open area, devoid of ICs, whereas the non-E rev board has a uniform distribution of ICs across the surface. --tom From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 09:06:16 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:06:16 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: His target market is not the vcf hobbyist. Many of these were on ebay or wherever, shipped to Long Island and put back on ebay for 50%+ more than "wholesale" (orig. seller's price). I have sold items to this guy via ebay inadvertantly and he has relisted mynitems at a much higher price. It might take 6 months to sell at the higher price but eventually they sell. I wanted to sell quickly and was not willing to wait so my price was competitive. His profit comes from patience and apparently cheap storage. He probably re-uses the original shipping box which is smart! Personally I think people who scoff at this seller are missing the point ... we are mostly a group of educated frugal vc hobbyists and not his target market. But if you must have it, he's got it! Bill On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:40 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a > favorite > asking price? > > > https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 > 3 > > Don Resor > > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jun 17 09:28:26 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:28:26 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reason #1 why I am exceptionally loathe to donate things to "museums" these days... CZ On 6/17/2021 10:06 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > His target market is not the vcf hobbyist. > > Many of these were on ebay or wherever, shipped to Long Island and put back > on ebay for 50%+ more than "wholesale" (orig. seller's price). > > I have sold items to this guy via ebay inadvertantly and he has relisted > mynitems at a much higher price. It might take 6 months to sell at the > higher price but eventually they sell. I wanted to sell quickly and was > not willing to wait so my price was competitive. His profit comes from > patience and apparently cheap storage. He probably re-uses the original > shipping box which is smart! > > > Personally I think people who scoff at this seller are missing the point > ... we are mostly a group of educated frugal vc hobbyists and not his > target market. But if you must have it, he's got it! > > Bill > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:40 AM D. Resor via cctalk > wrote: > >> It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a >> favorite >> asking price? >> >> >> https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 >> 3 >> >> Don Resor >> >> >> >> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 09:48:42 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:48:42 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Approximately zero people ever thought this guy was a museum. -- Will On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 10:28 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Reason #1 why I am exceptionally loathe to donate things to "museums" > these days... > > CZ > > On 6/17/2021 10:06 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > His target market is not the vcf hobbyist. > > > > Many of these were on ebay or wherever, shipped to Long Island and put back > > on ebay for 50%+ more than "wholesale" (orig. seller's price). > > > > I have sold items to this guy via ebay inadvertantly and he has relisted > > mynitems at a much higher price. It might take 6 months to sell at the > > higher price but eventually they sell. I wanted to sell quickly and was > > not willing to wait so my price was competitive. His profit comes from > > patience and apparently cheap storage. He probably re-uses the original > > shipping box which is smart! > > > > > > Personally I think people who scoff at this seller are missing the point > > ... we are mostly a group of educated frugal vc hobbyists and not his > > target market. But if you must have it, he's got it! > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:40 AM D. Resor via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a > >> favorite > >> asking price? > >> > >> > >> https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 > >> 3 > >> > >> Don Resor > >> > >> > >> > >> From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jun 17 09:51:13 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:51:13 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38b12498-8396-8469-0d2b-b699b7d8196f@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, you're probably right. And here I was just about to box up this HP 9825b as a donation.... CZ On 6/17/2021 10:48 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Approximately zero people ever thought this guy was a museum. > > -- > Will > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 10:28 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> Reason #1 why I am exceptionally loathe to donate things to "museums" >> these days... >> >> CZ >> >> On 6/17/2021 10:06 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >>> His target market is not the vcf hobbyist. >>> >>> Many of these were on ebay or wherever, shipped to Long Island and put back >>> on ebay for 50%+ more than "wholesale" (orig. seller's price). >>> >>> I have sold items to this guy via ebay inadvertantly and he has relisted >>> mynitems at a much higher price. It might take 6 months to sell at the >>> higher price but eventually they sell. I wanted to sell quickly and was >>> not willing to wait so my price was competitive. His profit comes from >>> patience and apparently cheap storage. He probably re-uses the original >>> shipping box which is smart! >>> >>> >>> Personally I think people who scoff at this seller are missing the point >>> ... we are mostly a group of educated frugal vc hobbyists and not his >>> target market. But if you must have it, he's got it! >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:40 AM D. Resor via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a >>>> favorite >>>> asking price? >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 >>>> 3 >>>> >>>> Don Resor >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From dittman at dittman.net Thu Jun 17 09:55:32 2021 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:55:32 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b463e6e-d4b1-dedc-847e-2de8f33a13ce@dittman.net> It's a virtual museum using eBay to display the exhibits. On 6/17/21 9:48 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Approximately zero people ever thought this guy was a museum. > > -- > Will > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 10:28 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Reason #1 why I am exceptionally loathe to donate things to "museums" >> these days... >> >> CZ >> >> On 6/17/2021 10:06 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >>> His target market is not the vcf hobbyist. >>> >>> Many of these were on ebay or wherever, shipped to Long Island and put back >>> on ebay for 50%+ more than "wholesale" (orig. seller's price). >>> >>> I have sold items to this guy via ebay inadvertantly and he has relisted >>> mynitems at a much higher price. It might take 6 months to sell at the >>> higher price but eventually they sell. I wanted to sell quickly and was >>> not willing to wait so my price was competitive. His profit comes from >>> patience and apparently cheap storage. He probably re-uses the original >>> shipping box which is smart! >>> >>> >>> Personally I think people who scoff at this seller are missing the point >>> ... we are mostly a group of educated frugal vc hobbyists and not his >>> target market. But if you must have it, he's got it! >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:40 AM D. Resor via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a >>>> favorite >>>> asking price? >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 >>>> 3 >>>> >>>> Don Resor >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- Eric Dittman From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 17 10:09:57 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:09:57 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: <4b463e6e-d4b1-dedc-847e-2de8f33a13ce@dittman.net> References: <4b463e6e-d4b1-dedc-847e-2de8f33a13ce@dittman.net> Message-ID: On 6/17/21 7:55 AM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: > It's a virtual museum using eBay to display the exhibits. > > On 6/17/21 9:48 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> Approximately zero people ever thought this guy was a museum. As a friend used to say, the "Services" in "Vintage Computer Services" refers to the services a bull supplies to a cow. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 10:23:14 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:23:14 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: <38b12498-8396-8469-0d2b-b699b7d8196f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <38b12498-8396-8469-0d2b-b699b7d8196f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: When I was with MARCH and vcfed and now at kennett classic we never sold/ sell any donations unless the donor specifically allowed it. On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 10:51 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, you're probably right. And here I was just about to box up this HP > 9825b as a donation.... > > CZ > > On 6/17/2021 10:48 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Approximately zero people ever thought this guy was a museum. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 10:28 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > >> Reason #1 why I am exceptionally loathe to donate things to "museums" > >> these days... > >> > >> CZ > >> > >> On 6/17/2021 10:06 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> His target market is not the vcf hobbyist. > >>> > >>> Many of these were on ebay or wherever, shipped to Long Island and put > back > >>> on ebay for 50%+ more than "wholesale" (orig. seller's price). > >>> > >>> I have sold items to this guy via ebay inadvertantly and he has > relisted > >>> mynitems at a much higher price. It might take 6 months to sell at the > >>> higher price but eventually they sell. I wanted to sell quickly and > was > >>> not willing to wait so my price was competitive. His profit comes > from > >>> patience and apparently cheap storage. He probably re-uses the > original > >>> shipping box which is smart! > >>> > >>> > >>> Personally I think people who scoff at this seller are missing the > point > >>> ... we are mostly a group of educated frugal vc hobbyists and not his > >>> target market. But if you must have it, he's got it! > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:40 AM D. Resor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a > >>>> favorite > >>>> asking price? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 > >>>> 3 > >>>> > >>>> Don Resor > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jun 17 11:04:37 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:04:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> I am sure sometimes he invests? in items that take over a year to sell or not selling all. I would say he offers a legitimate service? actually his blue relay computer digital trainer? for is a fair price $600. If a museum or a props master for a movie production? had to have something quick for a display or production they consider it nice to know there is a stock of items out there. Many times props folks have to put a collection of props together fast and don't have time or patience to play it like a hobbyist.?? In the real world... time is more valuable than money. Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:06 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: His target market is not the vcf hobbyist. Many of these were on ebay or wherever, shipped to Long Island and put back on ebay for 50%+ more than "wholesale" (orig. seller's price). I have sold items to this guy via ebay inadvertantly and he has relisted mynitems at a much higher price.? It might take 6 months to sell at the higher price but eventually they sell.? I wanted to sell quickly and was not willing to wait so my price was competitive.? His profit comes from patience and apparently cheap storage.? He probably re-uses the original shipping box which is smart! Personally I think people who scoff at this seller are missing the point ... we are mostly a group of educated frugal vc hobbyists and not his target market.? But if you must have it, he's got it! Bill On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:40 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a > favorite > asking price? > > > https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 > 3 > > Don Resor > > > > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 15:10:01 2021 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:10:01 -0400 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: <08c559d0-4b38-2eb9-514f-6347ce170c20@sydex.com> References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> <08c559d0-4b38-2eb9-514f-6347ce170c20@sydex.com> Message-ID: To provide an update on the repairs so far, I've been able to save a few boards while others are waiting for parts. I was able to save a display card (I have two bad ones and one is waiting for parts) and an APL ROS card which is really great. All by replacing some bad TTL logic chips. I still have more work to do. I also have two bad keyboards. It is the actual keyboard assembly as a known working keyboard works fine. I have taken them apart and cleaned them as best I could but that didn't help. One has exactly one key that works (a slash key on the number pad) but no other keys register. The second keyboard doesn't register anything. I am measuring this from the keyboard connector on the keyboard mechanism. One of the 5110's I acquired had a full set of manuals but they were water damaged and the schematics manual was one solid block of paper with all pages stuck together, unfortunately. I could really use some schematics. Does anyone have any schematics for the 5100/5110 they can share? There are some schematics in the 5100 Maintenance Information Manual on Bitsavers but they are more logical diagrams than actual schematics. What I don't know is if my "block of schematics" was like this as well. Any assistance would be much appreciated. Santo On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:25 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 6/12/21 1:58 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 12 Jun 2021, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I wonder if in the original list, a '1' was misread as a '7' or vice > >> versa. I am told that in some countries the '7' is conventionally > >> written with a crossbar across the downstroke to avoid this. My father > >> always did this, for all it is not common in England. > > > > In Germany, we *always* write a bar across the 7. I don't like uncrossed > > sevens because they are ugly ;-) and hard to distinguish from a 1. > > I do stroke my sevens just for clarity. However, here in the US, few > people write their ones with a serif--just a single vertical stroke. > That, in my experience is not common practice in many European countries. > > Writing zero with a slash, by the same token, probably leaves the > Scandanavian readers puzzled--as "oh" stroked is a letter of the > alphabet. Regardless, I stroked mine--a more universal practice might > have been to write zero with a horizontal or vertical stroke. > > I recall turning in keypunch forms to be punched and receiving my job > back with a note saying "I didn't know if you meant zero or oh, so a did > some of both". Wastebasket meet card deck. > > After that, I pretty much did all my own keypunching; management didn't > like that, but I persisted. > > --Chuck > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 17 15:15:03 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 13:15:03 -0700 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> <08c559d0-4b38-2eb9-514f-6347ce170c20@sydex.com> Message-ID: <07c9727a-0594-2a52-f1ae-264c14ecdde8@bitsavers.org> On 6/17/21 1:10 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > One of the 5110's I acquired > had a full set of manuals but they were water damaged and the schematics > manual was one solid block of paper with all pages stuck > together what was the part number of that manual? From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 15:17:21 2021 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:17:21 -0400 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: <07c9727a-0594-2a52-f1ae-264c14ecdde8@bitsavers.org> References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> <08c559d0-4b38-2eb9-514f-6347ce170c20@sydex.com> <07c9727a-0594-2a52-f1ae-264c14ecdde8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The manual with the schematics was at the back part of SY31-0405-3_IBM_5100_Maintenance_Information_Manual_Oct1979.pdf. PDF page 299 has the keyboard schematic/diagram. On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:15 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/17/21 1:10 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > One of the 5110's I acquired > > had a full set of manuals but they were water damaged and the schematics > > manual was one solid block of paper with all pages stuck > > together > > what was the part number of that manual? > > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 15:55:56 2021 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:55:56 -0400 Subject: IBM Logic IC equivalency information needed In-Reply-To: References: <654b78e5-ec0d-7614-7167-cdadaf5f3abc@pico-systems.com> <08c559d0-4b38-2eb9-514f-6347ce170c20@sydex.com> <07c9727a-0594-2a52-f1ae-264c14ecdde8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, I re-read your question and think you are referring to the manual I am looking for. I don't have the part number but I think it might be this: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102665239 What I had was the " 5110 System Logic manual" that was a solid block. Sadly, I threw it away after I spent some time trying to unravel it and failed. Hope this helps, Santo On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:17 PM Santo Nucifora wrote: > The manual with the schematics was at the back part > of SY31-0405-3_IBM_5100_Maintenance_Information_Manual_Oct1979.pdf. PDF > page 299 has the keyboard schematic/diagram. > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:15 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 6/17/21 1:10 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >> > One of the 5110's I acquired >> > had a full set of manuals but they were water damaged and the schematics >> > manual was one solid block of paper with all pages stuck >> > together >> >> what was the part number of that manual? >> >> From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jun 17 15:59:07 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 13:59:07 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a7b50cc-5f72-e329-44fe-edb5704e0162@jwsss.com> On 6/17/2021 4:40 AM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > It seems at least on the first page of their listings, $899.99 is a favorite > asking price? > > https://www.ebay.com/str/vintagecomputermuseumservices?_trksid=p2047675.l256 > 3 > > Don Resor > > > When I first crossed paths with this guy I sent him a message about some item he had listed correcting his claims about it.? Don't recall that. I do recall the two Ebay max length psychotic rants i got back along with threats to get me banned from Ebay. A seller name can be anything on Ebay.? People must be assuming he ever was what his title claims.? I don't know where he got his stuff, it was Pre the Sellam situation (who lost a lot of possibly similar materials). And a Museum doesn't imply that any of the articles were acquired by donations.? I think that' s just part of the game.? Most of the items listed have been listed and remain so from near his registration date, and one must wonder if any of it is still in the listed state. as to "target market" and all that, the seller has been ridiculous as long as the listings have been there.? He appears to not be selling the high priced stuff, and a lot of his stuff seems to be in line with ebay prices. Thanks jim From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 17 16:10:51 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:10:51 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: <4a7b50cc-5f72-e329-44fe-edb5704e0162@jwsss.com> References: <4a7b50cc-5f72-e329-44fe-edb5704e0162@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20210617211355.C97284E7F5@mx2.ezwind.net> At 03:59 PM 6/17/2021, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >When I first crossed paths with this guy I sent him a message about some item he had listed correcting his claims about it.? Don't recall that. Is there some reason we're not naming names here? Are they known? >And a Museum doesn't imply that any of the articles were acquired by donations.? I think that' s just part of the game. I used "museum" in the name of my web for my classic stuff a long time ago. Got a few calls from people over the years who wanted to visit... well, it's just all the stuff in storage here. No exhibits. - John From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jun 17 16:24:00 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 14:24:00 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: <20210617211355.C97284E7F5@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <4a7b50cc-5f72-e329-44fe-edb5704e0162@jwsss.com> <20210617211355.C97284E7F5@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 6/17/2021 2:10 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 03:59 PM 6/17/2021, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> When I first crossed paths with this guy I sent him a message about some item he had listed correcting his claims about it.? Don't recall that. > Is there some reason we're not naming names here? Are they known? After my interaction with him 17 years ago, IIRC he's on the other side of the country from me, and I'm glad of it. I didn't get any name.? I just told him bring it a**hole as a response to his threats. >> And a Museum doesn't imply that any of the articles were acquired by donations.? I think that' s just part of the game. > I used "museum" in the name of my web for my classic stuff a long time ago. > Got a few calls from people over the years who wanted to visit... well, > it's just all the stuff in storage here. No exhibits. > > - John > My point about museums.? They need not even have exhibits.? I played along with John Keys Houston Museum which had a sad end.? I think he did take things with the notion that he was a museum.? A lot of people don't check if the stuff goes off their dock, basement or garage. thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jun 17 19:47:15 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:47:15 -0500 Subject: DEC computer lab / mini banana plugs In-Reply-To: <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4a7f445a-aecc-f4a6-0a11-dddb31b037cb@pico-systems.com> A while ago there was discussion about the mini banana plugs used in this system. On another project at work, we needed some mini banana plugs, these sure look similar. I found that Digi-Key stocks some, as part # 314-1403 (black, pack of 10 plugs, for $24) and jacks 501-1051 (red) 501-1479 (black) and 501-1959 (green) for $2.05 each. These are roughly 0.1" diameter plugs that squeeze down a bit when inserted into the sockets. Not claiming these are the same size as the DEC ones, but my guess is they could be. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 20:06:18 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:06:18 -0500 Subject: DEC computer lab / mini banana plugs In-Reply-To: <4a7f445a-aecc-f4a6-0a11-dddb31b037cb@pico-systems.com> References: <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> <4a7f445a-aecc-f4a6-0a11-dddb31b037cb@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: o? wonder if these are the same as the ones used by nasa in the psa test point adaptor https://www.icollector.com/Apollo-Ground-Support-PSA-Test-Point-Adapter_i32827980 On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:47 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > A while ago there was discussion about the mini banana plugs > used in this system. > > On another project at work, we needed some mini banana > plugs, these sure look similar. > > I found that Digi-Key stocks some, as part # 314-1403 > (black, pack of 10 plugs, for $24) > > and jacks 501-1051 (red) 501-1479 (black) and 501-1959 > (green) for $2.05 each. > > These are roughly 0.1" diameter plugs that squeeze down a > bit when inserted into the sockets. > > Not claiming these are the same size as the DEC ones, but my > guess is they could be. > > > Jon > > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Jun 17 20:49:08 2021 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:49:08 +1000 Subject: DEC computer lab / mini banana plugs In-Reply-To: <4a7f445a-aecc-f4a6-0a11-dddb31b037cb@pico-systems.com> References: <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20210618114908.01764f58@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:47 PM 17/06/2021 -0500, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >A while ago there was discussion about the mini banana plugs >used in this system. > >On another project at work, we needed some mini banana >plugs, these sure look similar. > >I found that Digi-Key stocks some, as part # 314-1403 >(black, pack of 10 plugs, for $24) > >and jacks 501-1051 (red) 501-1479 (black) and 501-1959 >(green) for $2.05 each. > >These are roughly 0.1" diameter plugs that squeeze down a >bit when inserted into the sockets. > >Not claiming these are the same size as the DEC ones, but my >guess is they could be. > > >Jon There are also some possible functional equivalents available in bulk and cheap, from Aliexpress. They are in-line power connectors used by RC enthusiasts. For soldering to power wires, and come in M/F pairs. There are multiple sizes, but so far I've only bought the two sizes that fit standard 4mm banana jacks, and 2mm sockets. 2mm: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001041960728.html 10Pairs/Set 2mm Bullet Banana Plug Wire Connector Tool for RC Battery US $1.29 Shop5585045 Store 4mm: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32339136046.html IMC Hot 4mm Inside Dia Male Female Banana Plug Bullet Replacement 10 Pairs US $4.02 Imc Digital Technology Company Ltd (They are having their "11st Anniversary" :) But basically search for whoever has the best deal and shipping. Obviously the 'gold plating' won't have much if any actual gold, but it seems quite functional. There are also multiple sources of very nice high flexibility, fine stranded wire with silicone insulation. In a wide range of sizes. eg https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32432300722.html Not to mention ultra-cheap heatshrink tubing. It's nice to finally have multimeter probes that measure 0.0 ohms when shorted. Unlike the usual cheap, thin core commercial leads. Guy From bear at typewritten.org Thu Jun 17 14:39:05 2021 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 12:39:05 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Museum eBay Sales In-Reply-To: References: <4b463e6e-d4b1-dedc-847e-2de8f33a13ce@dittman.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 17, 2021, at 8:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > On 6/17/21 7:55 AM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >> It's a virtual museum using eBay to display the exhibits. >> On 6/17/21 9:48 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >>> Approximately zero people ever thought this guy was a museum. > > As a friend used to say, the "Services" in "Vintage Computer Services" refers > to the services a bull supplies to a cow. > I especially liked the H88 recently listed as having been ?brought up on a VARIAC? but ?the fuse is blown? and ?I don?t have a replacement to test it.? It?s that extra mile that really adds value to justify the prices. ok bear. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 18 02:15:26 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:15:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC computer lab / mini banana plugs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20210618114908.01764f58@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> <4a7f445a-aecc-f4a6-0a11-dddb31b037cb@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20210618114908.01764f58@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1667528272.2249443.1624000526449@mail.yahoo.com> Ok two sizes mentioned.? Which is wa9t we need????Great price.? Museum has I think 3 extra fev labs Wednesday to have cabled to make more attractive to take off or sell.. Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 6:52 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: At 07:47 PM 17/06/2021 -0500, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >A while ago there was discussion about the mini banana plugs >used in this system. > >On another project at work, we needed some mini banana >plugs, these sure look similar. > >I found that Digi-Key stocks some, as part # 314-1403 >(black, pack of 10 plugs, for $24) > >and jacks 501-1051 (red) 501-1479 (black) and 501-1959 >(green) for $2.05 each. > >These are roughly 0.1" diameter plugs that squeeze down a >bit when inserted into the sockets. > >Not claiming these are the same size as the DEC ones, but my >guess is they could be. > > >Jon There are also some possible functional equivalents available in bulk and cheap, from Aliexpress. They are in-line power connectors used by RC enthusiasts. For soldering to power wires, and come in M/F pairs. There are multiple sizes, but so far I've only bought the two sizes that fit standard 4mm banana jacks, and 2mm sockets. 2mm:? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001041960728.html 10Pairs/Set 2mm Bullet Banana Plug Wire Connector Tool for RC Battery US $1.29? ? Shop5585045 Store 4mm:? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32339136046.html IMC Hot 4mm Inside Dia Male Female Banana Plug Bullet Replacement 10 Pairs US $4.02? ? Imc Digital Technology Company Ltd (They are having their "11st Anniversary" :) But basically search for whoever has the best deal and shipping. Obviously the 'gold plating' won't have much if any actual gold, but it seems quite functional. There are also multiple sources of very nice high flexibility, fine stranded wire with silicone insulation. In a wide range of sizes. eg? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32432300722.html Not to mention ultra-cheap heatshrink tubing. It's nice to finally have multimeter probes that measure 0.0 ohms when shorted. Unlike the usual cheap, thin core commercial leads. Guy From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 18 02:15:26 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:15:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC computer lab / mini banana plugs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20210618114908.01764f58@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> <1786650352.1992425.1623945877372@mail.yahoo.com> <4a7f445a-aecc-f4a6-0a11-dddb31b037cb@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20210618114908.01764f58@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1667528272.2249443.1624000526449@mail.yahoo.com> Ok two sizes mentioned.? Which is wa9t we need????Great price.? Museum has I think 3 extra fev labs Wednesday to have cabled to make more attractive to take off or sell.. Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 6:52 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: At 07:47 PM 17/06/2021 -0500, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >A while ago there was discussion about the mini banana plugs >used in this system. > >On another project at work, we needed some mini banana >plugs, these sure look similar. > >I found that Digi-Key stocks some, as part # 314-1403 >(black, pack of 10 plugs, for $24) > >and jacks 501-1051 (red) 501-1479 (black) and 501-1959 >(green) for $2.05 each. > >These are roughly 0.1" diameter plugs that squeeze down a >bit when inserted into the sockets. > >Not claiming these are the same size as the DEC ones, but my >guess is they could be. > > >Jon There are also some possible functional equivalents available in bulk and cheap, from Aliexpress. They are in-line power connectors used by RC enthusiasts. For soldering to power wires, and come in M/F pairs. There are multiple sizes, but so far I've only bought the two sizes that fit standard 4mm banana jacks, and 2mm sockets. 2mm:? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001041960728.html 10Pairs/Set 2mm Bullet Banana Plug Wire Connector Tool for RC Battery US $1.29? ? Shop5585045 Store 4mm:? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32339136046.html IMC Hot 4mm Inside Dia Male Female Banana Plug Bullet Replacement 10 Pairs US $4.02? ? Imc Digital Technology Company Ltd (They are having their "11st Anniversary" :) But basically search for whoever has the best deal and shipping. Obviously the 'gold plating' won't have much if any actual gold, but it seems quite functional. There are also multiple sources of very nice high flexibility, fine stranded wire with silicone insulation. In a wide range of sizes. eg? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32432300722.html Not to mention ultra-cheap heatshrink tubing. It's nice to finally have multimeter probes that measure 0.0 ohms when shorted. Unlike the usual cheap, thin core commercial leads. Guy From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Jun 18 12:14:47 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation Message-ID: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 12:16:18 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 13:16:18 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> Message-ID: Reflection 4 should do that, right? Bill On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 1:15 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will > emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? > > From chris at groessler.org Fri Jun 18 14:09:05 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 21:09:05 +0200 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3da2a9e1-0a84-2dae-3e4b-2c1b1a78538b@groessler.org> I've got a real VT340, if somebody wants to verify an emulation. regards, chris On 6/18/21 7:14 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will > emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Jun 18 14:50:42 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:50:42 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> Right, according to the few notes I've seen on the packages currently for sale on ebay. I hesitate to buy because I picked up a similar piece of software, Smarterm 240, which seemed to do the desired emulation.? It was old software for DOS, but I have an old DOS machine I use for PUTR I thought I could install it on and be up and running.? It didn't turn out that way because Smarterm wanted a particular video card and driver (which I didn't have, of course).? I didn't find that out until I got the package open and tried installing it. I don't know if the Reflection software has any restrictions like that.? The versions I see for sale are for Win3.1 and such, not exactly the heyday of plug and play.? I was hoping to get some guidance from someone who has used the Reflection software on what the actual hardware/software requirements are. On a side note, emulating a Tektronix 4010 is apparently free and high quality (see github).? It is the DEC graphics terminals that no one has produced an open source emulation software for, so that's why I am asking this question. Doug On 6/18/2021 1:16 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > Reflection 4 should do that, right? > Bill > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 1:15 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech > > wrote: > > Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will > emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? > From steven at malikoff.com Sat Jun 19 01:17:40 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 16:17:40 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?) In-Reply-To: <57352e7f-3d2f-76b9-7188-a42a54e5bc8e@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> <57352e7f-3d2f-76b9-7188-a42a54e5bc8e@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <1416515e861d259b0e65f569494d1085.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Tom said > On 6/17/21 6:57 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> Tom said >>> I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the matching M7260 >>> schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E schematic: >>> >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf >>> >>> The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they match what is in the >>> two boards. >> My original PDP-11/05 print set that came from the BHP steelworks is titled just 'PDP-11/05 Engineering >> Drawings' and the drawings are for machine revision 1105-0. It covers the early 11/05 with the cast metal >> grille with no slots (as seen in the 11/05 handbook) rather than the later 11/05 with the plastic slotted >> grille. >> The dates on the drawings are 1972 and some of the microcode listing dates are different to the 'PDP-11/05-S, >> 11/10-S systems engineering drawings' bitsavers scan and the GT-40 scan, and some of them are the same. >> >> I'm not sure where I look to see what revision of the M7261 it shows, as the Rev box in the bottom right >> seems to jump around, eg. Rev N, Rev K, Rev H or is that just the minor drawing revision for that page? >> >> Steve >> > If you look at the board layout for the M7261, the E rev board has a large open area, devoid of ICs, > whereas > the non-E rev board has a uniform distribution of ICs across the surface. > > --tom > Yes my M7261 board drawing appears to be the earlier one, similar to the GT40 drawing but is revision N instead of M. (I myself have an early 11/05 s/n 151 but it has a later M7261 in it.) >From the ex-BHP print set the microcode listing details and Page Revision Control Sheet latests are ---- K-MP-KD11-B-1 MICROPROGRAM FLOW Rev B (PRCS: Rev. B [BAAAAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA]) (Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-1 Rev. A 27-JUL-72) ---- K-MP-KD11-B-2 MICROPROGRAM SYMBOLIC LISTING Rev D (PRCS: Rev. D [DABCBA]) (Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-2 Rev. A 27-JUL-72) ---- K-MP-KD11-B-3 MICROPROGRAM BINARY LISTING Rev D (PRCS: Rev. D [DABBBBA]) (Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-3 Rev. A 27-JUL-72) ---- K-MP-KD11-B-4 MICROPROGRAM CROSS REF LISTING Rev D (PRCS: Rev. -) (Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-4 Rev. * 2-MAY-72) ---------------------------- M7620-0-1 DATA PATHS Rev. N (PRCS: Rev. N [NNNNMMMNMMMM]) M7260-0-8 DATA PATH ROM PATTERNS Rev. ? (same as GT40) ---------------------------- M7261-0-1 CONTROL LOGIC AND MICROPROGRAM Rev. P (PRCS: Rev. P [PNHHJKJHJMKKKH]) M7261-0-1 CONTROL LOGIC ROM PATTERNS Rev. A (same as GT40) (PRCS: Rev. A [AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA]) Steve. From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Fri Jun 18 19:49:21 2021 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 20:49:21 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> Message-ID: IIRC, Xterm has ReGIS and Sixel support in it's code these days, but most Linux distro disable those features in their prepackaged builds for some reason. Mike On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 3:50 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Right, according to the few notes I've seen on the packages currently > for sale on ebay. > > I hesitate to buy because I picked up a similar piece of software, > Smarterm 240, which seemed to do the desired emulation. It was old > software for DOS, but I have an old DOS machine I use for PUTR I thought > I could install it on and be up and running. It didn't turn out that > way because Smarterm wanted a particular video card and driver (which I > didn't have, of course). I didn't find that out until I got the package > open and tried installing it. > > I don't know if the Reflection software has any restrictions like that. > The versions I see for sale are for Win3.1 and such, not exactly the > heyday of plug and play. I was hoping to get some guidance from someone > who has used the Reflection software on what the actual > hardware/software requirements are. > > On a side note, emulating a Tektronix 4010 is apparently free and high > quality (see github). It is the DEC graphics terminals that no one has > produced an open source emulation software for, so that's why I am > asking this question. > Doug > > On 6/18/2021 1:16 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Reflection 4 should do that, right? > > Bill > > > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 1:15 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech > > > wrote: > > > > Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will > > emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? > > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jun 19 05:52:44 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 06:52:44 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <3da2a9e1-0a84-2dae-3e4b-2c1b1a78538b@groessler.org> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <3da2a9e1-0a84-2dae-3e4b-2c1b1a78538b@groessler.org> Message-ID: <74e25fa1-a7ff-6070-c4e0-8e5db9415435@e-bbes.com> On 2021-06-18 15:09, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > I've got a real VT340, if somebody wants to verify an emulation. 340 A or 340 G+? Big difference ... From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jun 19 05:52:44 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 06:52:44 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <3da2a9e1-0a84-2dae-3e4b-2c1b1a78538b@groessler.org> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <3da2a9e1-0a84-2dae-3e4b-2c1b1a78538b@groessler.org> Message-ID: <74e25fa1-a7ff-6070-c4e0-8e5db9415435@e-bbes.com> On 2021-06-18 15:09, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: > I've got a real VT340, if somebody wants to verify an emulation. 340 A or 340 G+? Big difference ... From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 03:04:13 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 09:04:13 +0100 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> , <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1e3801d764e1$b15c14a0$14143de0$@gmail.com> Its been a while but Attachate software generally only needed special hardware for stuff like 5250 twinax, 3270 co-ax, and various SDLC connections. This page might help check which versions support regis but they perhaps don't go back to the really old versions... https://support.microfocus.com/kb/doc.php?id=7021488 Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Wayne S via > cctech > Sent: 19 June 2021 00:50 > To: Douglas Taylor ; General Discussion: On-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: VT340 Emulation > > We tried to use Reflection 240 on IBM PS/2 machines circa 1990. IIRC, it > installed easily w/o needing special drivers. > For the most part it worked as advertised. We didn't really need Regis > graphics so we never tested that out. It's problem was that it was really slow > on PCs, much slower than a real VT240 terminal. We were trying to use Dec's > "all in one" office automation to do word processing and spreadsheets. It's > slowness caused us to abandon it and just use word perfect and lotus 123 > instead. FYI, There are reflection manuals on the wayback machine for > reference. > > > Wayne > > > > On Jun 18, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech > wrote: > > > > Right, according to the few notes I've seen on the packages currently for > sale on ebay. > > > > I hesitate to buy because I picked up a similar piece of software, Smarterm > 240, which seemed to do the desired emulation. It was old software for DOS, > but I have an old DOS machine I use for PUTR I thought I could install it on and > be up and running. It didn't turn out that way because Smarterm wanted a > particular video card and driver (which I didn't have, of course). I didn't find > that out until I got the package open and tried installing it. > > > > I don't know if the Reflection software has any restrictions like that. The > versions I see for sale are for Win3.1 and such, not exactly the heyday of plug > and play. I was hoping to get some guidance from someone who has used > the Reflection software on what the actual hardware/software requirements > are. > > > > On a side note, emulating a Tektronix 4010 is apparently free and high > quality (see github). It is the DEC graphics terminals that no one has > produced an open source emulation software for, so that's why I am asking > this question. > > Doug > > > >> On 6/18/2021 1:16 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > >> Reflection 4 should do that, right? > >> Bill > >> > >> On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 1:15 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech > > wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will > >> emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? > > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 05:29:45 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 12:29:45 +0200 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 at 19:15, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > > Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will > emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? I did try Reflection waaayyyy back in the day, possibly around 1990 or so. It worked, but I had no need of graphics support. I never imagined that about 30y later I'd be working for the company that produced it. (But now my bit has been spun off and floated.) Most of my customers back then were running Wyse terminals -- later (i.e. cheaper) models but usually under Wyse-50 or Wyse-60 emulation, if I recall. For one or 2 demanding customers, we ended up going with the J River Company's ICE/TEN tools instead. https://www.icetcp.com/products/price-list.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 06:23:08 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 12:23:08 +0100 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> Message-ID: <019b01d764fd$7c588b00$7509a100$@gmail.com> Doug, It looks like PERSOFT Smartterm Office for 95/NT will also do REGIS Graphics. I have V8.0 but have yet to try REGIS. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Douglas Taylor > via cctech > Sent: 18 June 2021 18:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: VT340 Emulation > > Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will emulate > a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 19 06:38:44 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 06:38:44 -0500 Subject: MITS 300/55 Business System In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20210619113903.3A125273E4@mx1.ezwind.net> Fellow wants to unload it, located in Lansing, MI USA. 80 meg HD. https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/o2qggk/altair_8800a_with_500_pound_hard_drive/ - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 19 07:35:02 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 07:35:02 -0500 Subject: Who has a working Terak? Message-ID: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> One of the original UCSD Pascal team contacted me, asking if any of my Teraks are still working. Sadly, they don't. I seem to remember hearing on the list that someone had re-capped and re-socketed their Terak, and that it's working. He wants to get video of an original, working Terak to demonstrate the UCSD Pascal menu system. He wants to show how the UCSD Pascal menu system could've influenced Apple's menus on the Lisa. Yes, I pointed out that you can run it under emulation. - John From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 09:06:26 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 10:06:26 -0400 Subject: Who has a working Terak? In-Reply-To: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I have a sage II on the table that boots pascal os and the orig menu if that helps Bill On Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:41 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > One of the original UCSD Pascal team contacted me, asking if > any of my Teraks are still working. Sadly, they don't. > > I seem to remember hearing on the list that someone had re-capped and > re-socketed their Terak, and that it's working. > > He wants to get video of an original, working Terak to demonstrate > the UCSD Pascal menu system. He wants to show how the UCSD Pascal > menu system could've influenced Apple's menus on the Lisa. > > Yes, I pointed out that you can run it under emulation. > > - John > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 10:45:21 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 08:45:21 -0700 Subject: Who has a working Terak? In-Reply-To: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 5:41 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > One of the original UCSD Pascal team contacted me, asking if > any of my Teraks are still working. Sadly, they don't. > > I seem to remember hearing on the list that someone had re-capped and > re-socketed their Terak, and that it's working. > That might have been me. I have a working Terak and can set it up to demonstrate stuff, though I may need to find a better camera for capturing video... - Josh > > He wants to get video of an original, working Terak to demonstrate > the UCSD Pascal menu system. He wants to show how the UCSD Pascal > menu system could've influenced Apple's menus on the Lisa. > > Yes, I pointed out that you can run it under emulation. > > - John > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 19 10:50:00 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 08:50:00 -0700 Subject: Who has a working Terak? In-Reply-To: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: off topic, but since Teraks came up does anyone have boot disks for the later Calcomp Teraks that have an NEC 7220 graphics color graphics board? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 19 17:53:02 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:53:02 -0400 Subject: Who has a working Terak? In-Reply-To: References: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 6/19/21 10:06 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have a sage II on the table that boots pascal os and the orig menu if > that helps > Bill > > On Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:41 AM John Foust via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> One of the original UCSD Pascal team contacted me, asking if >> any of my Teraks are still working. Sadly, they don't. >> >> I seem to remember hearing on the list that someone had re-capped and >> re-socketed their Terak, and that it's working. >> >> He wants to get video of an original, working Terak to demonstrate >> the UCSD Pascal menu system. He wants to show how the UCSD Pascal >> menu system could've influenced Apple's menus on the Lisa. >> >> Yes, I pointed out that you can run it under emulation. >> >> - John >> >> I was confused by the original message. I have run UCSD-Pascal on a number of systems and all of them had the same menuing system. I imagine running Teraks are becoming a rarity. While I could probably fake it by putting Terak boards in a real PDP-11 backplane none of my Teraks are still intact. No real Terak monitors but they will display on a composite monitor. On top of that, Ersaztz-11 does Terak emulation so you could always use that if the only desire is to photograph the menus. bill From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 12:47:49 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 13:47:49 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/18/2021 8:49 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > IIRC, Xterm has ReGIS and Sixel support in it's code these days, but > most Linux distro disable those features in their prepackaged builds > for some?reason. Really?? I'm interested.? How do you build your own xterm? Doug > > Mike > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 3:50 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech > > wrote: > > Right, according to the few notes I've seen on the packages currently > for sale on ebay. > > I hesitate to buy because I picked up a similar piece of software, > Smarterm 240, which seemed to do the desired emulation. It was old > software for DOS, but I have an old DOS machine I use for PUTR I > thought > I could install it on and be up and running.? It didn't turn out that > way because Smarterm wanted a particular video card and driver > (which I > didn't have, of course).? I didn't find that out until I got the > package > open and tried installing it. > > I don't know if the Reflection software has any restrictions like > that. > The versions I see for sale are for Win3.1 and such, not exactly the > heyday of plug and play.? I was hoping to get some guidance from > someone > who has used the Reflection software on what the actual > hardware/software requirements are. > > On a side note, emulating a Tektronix 4010 is apparently free and > high > quality (see github).? It is the DEC graphics terminals that no > one has > produced an open source emulation software for, so that's why I am > asking this question. > Doug > > On 6/18/2021 1:16 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Reflection 4 should do that, right? > > Bill > > > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 1:15 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech > > > >> wrote: > > > >? ? ?Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software > that will > >? ? ?emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? > > > From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Sat Jun 19 12:59:21 2021 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 13:59:21 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> Message-ID: Grab the sources from https://invisible-island.net/xterm/ and build it. Documentation is lacking,but you should be able to find out what options are needed to enable ReGIS and Sixel graphics by running "./configure --help" Mike On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 1:47 PM Douglas Taylor wrote: > > On 6/18/2021 8:49 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > IIRC, Xterm has ReGIS and Sixel support in it's code these days, but most Linux distro disable those features in their prepackaged builds for some reason. > > > Really? I'm interested. How do you build your own xterm? > > Doug > > > Mike > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 3:50 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >> >> Right, according to the few notes I've seen on the packages currently >> for sale on ebay. >> >> I hesitate to buy because I picked up a similar piece of software, >> Smarterm 240, which seemed to do the desired emulation. It was old >> software for DOS, but I have an old DOS machine I use for PUTR I thought >> I could install it on and be up and running. It didn't turn out that >> way because Smarterm wanted a particular video card and driver (which I >> didn't have, of course). I didn't find that out until I got the package >> open and tried installing it. >> >> I don't know if the Reflection software has any restrictions like that. >> The versions I see for sale are for Win3.1 and such, not exactly the >> heyday of plug and play. I was hoping to get some guidance from someone >> who has used the Reflection software on what the actual >> hardware/software requirements are. >> >> On a side note, emulating a Tektronix 4010 is apparently free and high >> quality (see github). It is the DEC graphics terminals that no one has >> produced an open source emulation software for, so that's why I am >> asking this question. >> Doug >> >> On 6/18/2021 1:16 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: >> > Reflection 4 should do that, right? >> > Bill >> > >> > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 1:15 PM Douglas Taylor via cctech >> > > wrote: >> > >> > Does anyone have experience with the Reflection software that will >> > emulate a DEC VT340 color graphics terminal? >> > >> > From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Jun 20 05:18:18 2021 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:18:18 +0200 Subject: Wanted: Hp Display Tube 5083-1551 Message-ID: hi all, a friend of mine (Hartmut) is restoring desktop- and pocketcaluculators as a hobby. Lately he got an HP9100B on his desk with a bad display tube (the getters are white) but is otherwise in a good shape. Is here possibly someone that has such an display Tube to sell? Kind Regards from Germany, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 03:43:58 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 04:43:58 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books Message-ID: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming books. 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) What others were published prior to the McCracken text? Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: 1946: Moore School Lectures 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating Machinery 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating Machinery 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new hardware. I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. Were there others prior to McCracken? paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 05:56:57 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 11:56:57 +0100 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> Paul, What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org/kgill/m ark1/progman.html In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in effect machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other machines? I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have been earlier editions. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel via > cctech > Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: Early Programming Books > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer (Wilkes, > Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 07:39:32 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 08:39:32 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> Dave; I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine specific. That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for execution. Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were eventually such books for ALGOL 60. Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken (1961: Guide to FORTRAN Programming). Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the Manchester MK1. -----Original Message----- From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Early Programming Books Paul, What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org/kgill/m ark1/progman.html In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in effect machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other machines? I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have been earlier editions. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel via > cctech > Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: Early Programming Books > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating Machinery > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating Machinery > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new hardware. > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jun 20 07:57:08 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 08:57:08 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-06-20 1:39 p.m., Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > Dave; > > I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine > specific. > That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for > execution. Not sure if it's what you are looking for, but if you haven't, check out "Classic Operating Systems" by Per Brinch Hansen. > > Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. > Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. > > In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a > language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books > specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were > eventually such books for ALGOL 60. Pretty sure I own one, by Dijkstra. Will get details later if you are interested. --Toby > > Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken (1961: > Guide to FORTRAN Programming). > > Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the > Manchester MK1. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM > To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Paul, > What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 > programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- > > https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org/kgill/m > ark1/progman.html > > In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in > effect machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other > machines? > > I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is > dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have been > earlier editions. > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel via >> cctech >> Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' >> Subject: Early Programming Books >> >> I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming >> books. >> >> 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) >> 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) >> >> What others were published prior to the McCracken text? >> >> Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: >> >> 1946: Moore School Lectures >> 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery >> 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery >> 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines >> >> These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. >> >> I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. >> Were there others prior to McCracken? >> >> paul > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 09:19:53 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 15:19:53 +0100 Subject: Wanted: Hp Display Tube 5083-1551 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 11:23 AM Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > > hi all, > a friend of mine (Hartmut) is restoring desktop- and pocketcaluculators > as a hobby. Lately he got an HP9100B on his desk with a bad display tube (the > getters are white) but is otherwise in a good shape. > > Is here possibly someone that has such an display Tube to sell? Those tubes are _very_ hard to find as a spare part. They are, of course, electrostatically deflected and the deflection angle is a lot larger than normal. This leads to poor linearity, which is why 'scope tubes have a small deflection angle, but of course that doesn't matter for a digit display. Just about the only source is another HP9100 (it's the same tube in the -A and -B models) but of course it is not a good idea to raid a repairable machine for the CRT. And a word of warning. If the tube has received enough force to crack the envelope ( hence air gets in and the getter oxidises to white) it's likely the glass rods that support the electrodes have cracked too. This leads to shorts between the deflection plates and the high-voltage anode. If this has happened and the machine has been powered up like that, then there are very likely to be blown transistors and diodes all over the place. -tony > > Kind Regards from Germany, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From turing at shaw.ca Sun Jun 20 09:26:27 2021 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 08:26:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I have two books on ALGOL 60 from 1962 - A Guide to ALGOL Programming, Daniel D. McCracken A Primer Of ALGOL 60 Programming, E.W. Dijkstra For APL, there is this from 1962 - A Programming Language, Kenneth E. Iverson However, I also have a reference from 1960 - LISP I Programmer's Manual, J. McCarthy et al. From: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" To: "Paul Birkel" , "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" , "dave g4ugm" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 5:57:08 AM Subject: Re: Early Programming Books On 2021-06-20 1:39 p.m., Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > Dave; > > I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine > specific. > That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for > execution. Not sure if it's what you are looking for, but if you haven't, check out "Classic Operating Systems" by Per Brinch Hansen. > > Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. > Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. > > In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a > language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books > specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were > eventually such books for ALGOL 60. Pretty sure I own one, by Dijkstra. Will get details later if you are interested. --Toby > > Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken (1961: > Guide to FORTRAN Programming). > > Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the > Manchester MK1. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM > To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Paul, > What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 > programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- > > https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org/kgill/m > ark1/progman.html > > In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in > effect machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other > machines? > > I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is > dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have been > earlier editions. > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel via >> cctech >> Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' >> Subject: Early Programming Books >> >> I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming >> books. >> >> 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) >> 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) >> >> What others were published prior to the McCracken text? >> >> Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: >> >> 1946: Moore School Lectures >> 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery >> 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery >> 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines >> >> These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. >> >> I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. >> Were there others prior to McCracken? >> >> paul > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 09:50:36 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 15:50:36 +0100 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> Paul, I assumed that was the case, but the inclusion of the Wilkes book confused me. I think there really is a spectrum of books, so say pre-1955 all books assumed the reader had little knowledge of programming. For example the MK1 guide I pointed you to is V2. Its rumoured that Turing wrote V1 and no one could understand it but I think it more likely the machine changed. I also looked at the IBM 701 manuals and they too have some generic info at the front. However I also wonder what the earliest books were like. Dave G4UGM (You might want to e-mail Simon Lavington https://www.essex.ac.uk/people/lavin12900/simon-lavington he has done a lot of research on early computing, and might know more.) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Birkel > Sent: 20 June 2021 13:40 > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Dave; > > I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine > specific. > That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for > execution. > > Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. > Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. > > In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a > language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books > specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were > eventually such books for ALGOL 60. > > Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken > (1961: > Guide to FORTRAN Programming). > > Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the > Manchester MK1. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM > To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Paul, > What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 > programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- > > https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org > /kgill/m > ark1/progman.html > > In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in effect > machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other machines? > > I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is > dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have > been earlier editions. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel > > via cctech > > Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Early Programming Books > > > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > > Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing > > Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 10:04:31 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 11:04:31 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <004a01d765e5$93394880$b9abd980$@gmail.com> When it comes to McCracken I feel a bit like Homer Simpson "Donuts ... is there anything they can't do?" He certainly made a career out of writing programming language instruction texts. -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Norman Jaffe via cctech Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:26 AM To: General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Early Programming Books I have two books on ALGOL 60 from 1962 - A Guide to ALGOL Programming, Daniel D. McCracken A Primer Of ALGOL 60 Programming, E.W. Dijkstra For APL, there is this from 1962 - A Programming Language, Kenneth E. Iverson However, I also have a reference from 1960 - LISP I Programmer's Manual, J. McCarthy et al. From: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" To: "Paul Birkel" , "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" , "dave g4ugm" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 5:57:08 AM Subject: Re: Early Programming Books On 2021-06-20 1:39 p.m., Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > Dave; > > I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine > specific. > That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for > execution. Not sure if it's what you are looking for, but if you haven't, check out "Classic Operating Systems" by Per Brinch Hansen. > > Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. > Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. > > In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a > language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books > specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were > eventually such books for ALGOL 60. Pretty sure I own one, by Dijkstra. Will get details later if you are interested. --Toby > > Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken (1961: > Guide to FORTRAN Programming). > > Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the > Manchester MK1. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM > To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Paul, > What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 > programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- > > https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org/kgill/m > ark1/progman.html > > In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in > effect machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other > machines? > > I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is > dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have been > earlier editions. > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel via >> cctech >> Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' >> Subject: Early Programming Books >> >> I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming >> books. >> >> 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) >> 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) >> >> What others were published prior to the McCracken text? >> >> Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: >> >> 1946: Moore School Lectures >> 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery >> 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery >> 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines >> >> These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. >> >> I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. >> Were there others prior to McCracken? >> >> paul > > From alsilisk at icloud.com Sun Jun 20 10:44:31 2021 From: alsilisk at icloud.com (Al) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 15:44:31 -0000 Subject: Wanted: IBM 2671 docs and IBM stuff Message-ID: <95e02035-f321-47c9-b6df-3fc0f62b9c29@me.com> Dear All, Recently I received an IBM 2671 paper tape reader and have been slowly restoring it. However I've hit a bit of a brick wall because no service docs are known. If you are sitting on some please do let me know. I am also looking for other bits of IBM mainframe/midrange stuff to restore so if anybody is looking to sell some, please PM me as well. I am in south England. Thanks, Al From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 15:49:31 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:49:31 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E790871-580D-4278-82CC-4FBDABDFA81A@comcast.net> > On Jun 20, 2021, at 4:43 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new hardware. There are several Dutch ones that are interesting, available from the on-line document collection of the CWI (then MC -- Mathematical Center). The oldest I know is from February 1948, "Principles of electronic calculating machines" (report CR3), by A. van Wijngaarden. Much of it is about computer hardware and architecture, but the back part covers programming. Next is "Programming the A.R.R.A.", (MR7) also by A. van Wijngaarden, 1951. And an interesting one, "Functional description of the ARRA" (MR12), by E. W. Dijkstra, 1953. That's a very early example of a document giving a programmer's view of a computer, rather than a EE's view -- so it describes the instruction set, I/O mechanisms, library functions available, etc. -- but not the details of the implementation. Along the same lines are "Handbook for the programmer -- FERTA" (in two parts, MR17 and MR20), 1955, also by Dijkstra. There are a bunch more along the same lines, probably nearly unknown partly because they describe one-off lab machines (except for FERTA, which is a copy of ARRA that was built by the lab for Fokker aircraft corporation and there was used for aerodynamic CAD work). The fact that they are all in Dutch obviously doesn't help... paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 15:49:31 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:49:31 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E790871-580D-4278-82CC-4FBDABDFA81A@comcast.net> > On Jun 20, 2021, at 4:43 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new hardware. There are several Dutch ones that are interesting, available from the on-line document collection of the CWI (then MC -- Mathematical Center). The oldest I know is from February 1948, "Principles of electronic calculating machines" (report CR3), by A. van Wijngaarden. Much of it is about computer hardware and architecture, but the back part covers programming. Next is "Programming the A.R.R.A.", (MR7) also by A. van Wijngaarden, 1951. And an interesting one, "Functional description of the ARRA" (MR12), by E. W. Dijkstra, 1953. That's a very early example of a document giving a programmer's view of a computer, rather than a EE's view -- so it describes the instruction set, I/O mechanisms, library functions available, etc. -- but not the details of the implementation. Along the same lines are "Handbook for the programmer -- FERTA" (in two parts, MR17 and MR20), 1955, also by Dijkstra. There are a bunch more along the same lines, probably nearly unknown partly because they describe one-off lab machines (except for FERTA, which is a copy of ARRA that was built by the lab for Fokker aircraft corporation and there was used for aerodynamic CAD work). The fact that they are all in Dutch obviously doesn't help... paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 15:58:25 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:58:25 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20C72ED1-3E51-4302-AD3E-A9E14A612C3B@comcast.net> > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Norman Jaffe via cctalk > Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > Date: June 20, 2021 at 10:26:27 AM EDT > To: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" > Reply-To: Norman Jaffe , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > I have two books on ALGOL 60 from 1962 - > A Guide to ALGOL Programming, Daniel D. McCracken > A Primer Of ALGOL 60 Programming, E.W. Dijkstra Dijkstra and Zonneveld wrote the first ALGOL compiler in 1961, so there might be documents from that time, most likely in the CWI (Mathematical Center) archives. There's a course textbook on programming that is not machine specific, by Dekker, Dijkstra and van Wijngaarden, "Course on programming automatic calculating machines", November 1957. It's quite extensive; the document is 110 pages long. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 15:58:25 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:58:25 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20C72ED1-3E51-4302-AD3E-A9E14A612C3B@comcast.net> > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Norman Jaffe via cctalk > Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > Date: June 20, 2021 at 10:26:27 AM EDT > To: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" > Reply-To: Norman Jaffe , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > I have two books on ALGOL 60 from 1962 - > A Guide to ALGOL Programming, Daniel D. McCracken > A Primer Of ALGOL 60 Programming, E.W. Dijkstra Dijkstra and Zonneveld wrote the first ALGOL compiler in 1961, so there might be documents from that time, most likely in the CWI (Mathematical Center) archives. There's a course textbook on programming that is not machine specific, by Dekker, Dijkstra and van Wijngaarden, "Course on programming automatic calculating machines", November 1957. It's quite extensive; the document is 110 pages long. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jun 20 17:06:48 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:06:48 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/19/21 11:47 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Really?? I'm interested.? How do you build your own xterm? Download and extract the source code. Here's the configure command that I most recently used before teaching Gentoo's ebuild about Sixel and ReGIS. (The command is derived from the ebuild I was patterning off of.) ./configure --build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --datadir=/usr/share --disable-full-tgetent --disable-imake --disable-setgid --disable-setuid --disable-toolbar --enable-256-color --enable-broken-osc --enable-broken-st --enable-dabbrev --enable-exec-xterm --enable-i18n --enable-load-vt-fonts --enable-logging --enable-luit --enable-mini-luit --enable-openpty --enable-regis-graphics --enable-screen-dumps --enable-sixel-graphics --enable-warnings --enable-wide-chars --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --infodir=/usr/share/info --libdir=/etc --localstatedir=/var/lib --mandir=/usr/share/man --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc --with-app-defaults=/usr/share/X11/app-defaults --without-Xaw3d --without-xinerama --with-utempter --with-x The key part is "--enable-sixel-graphics" and / or "--enable-regis-graphics". I'm also partial to the "--enable-256-color" and "--enable-screen-dumps". The screen dumps mean that XTerm will save XHTML and / or XML dumps. Meaning they are text that you can search / copy paste. }:-) P.S. My messages to cctech don't seem to be going through. So I'm re-replying to the message to cctalk. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jun 20 18:04:16 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 18:04:16 -0500 Subject: Who has a working Terak? In-Reply-To: References: <20210619124132.4D4E34E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210620231910.EE0DC274F6@mx1.ezwind.net> At 10:50 AM 6/19/2021, you wrote: >off topic, but since Teraks came up >does anyone have boot disks for the later Calcomp Teraks that have an NEC 7220 >graphics color graphics board? I have one 8600 color (Q-Bus add-on, separate box) system I inherited from a Terak founder. His estate didn't provide disks. I believe his nephew got all the disks but I don't think he's ever answered my emails. Apart from the software, I imagine there must be a companion card for it that goes in an 8510 - I don't think I have that. I think Cyrus Smith (once of Electric Image) had a color system but last time I asked he said it might be "gone." - John From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Jun 20 22:01:22 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 20:01:22 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2021-Jun-20, at 7:38 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > On 2021-06-20 8:13 p.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: > >> Tried the Shunting Yard algorithm? But watch out, it was invented by a >> quiche eater... > > The problem needs backtracking to generate correct code. Stack or muilti-register machines don't have this problem with temporaries. > Ben. The parser generates a tree of the algebraic expression, the tree is representative of the evaluation order of the expression, earlier evals lower in the tree, the node at the top is the last evaluated. Then walk the tree from the bottom up to generate code. I think code to do this (efficient compiler code generation) has been done like a gazillion-billion times since 1960. (This is a re-send to cctalk instead of cctech. Could we please get rid of cctech. It just generates delays.) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 20 23:19:02 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:19:02 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2021-06-20 9:01 p.m., Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-Jun-20, at 7:38 PM, ben via cctech wrote: >> On 2021-06-20 8:13 p.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: >> >>> Tried the Shunting Yard algorithm? But watch out, it was invented by a >>> quiche eater... >> >> The problem needs backtracking to generate correct code. Stack or muilti-register machines don't have this problem with temporaries. >> Ben. > > > The parser generates a tree of the algebraic expression, the tree is representative of the evaluation order of the expression, earlier evals lower in the tree, the node at the top is the last evaluated. Then walk the tree from the bottom up to generate code. > > I think code to do this (efficient compiler code generation) has been done like a gazillion-billion times since 1960. Computer science people seem to like to brag about how to parse. Walking a tree does not solve the tree was built in the wrong order.Parenthesis first implies input string re-scanning and text movement.This what I can't seem to find a good algorithm for. FORTRAN II and IV did quite well before all this computer science. FORTRAN solved real world problems, ALGOL has yet to have I/O. LISP still can't be compiled.PASCAL is only educational problems, and C mutated into Monster. JAVA is not open source. Very little new stuff is on multi-pass parsing.I have a 70's computer design of modest word length (20 bits) that needs 1970's computer science, and 64KB of memory and removable disks. Ben. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Jun 21 00:07:25 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:07:25 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> On 2021-Jun-20, at 9:19 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-06-20 9:01 p.m., Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> On 2021-Jun-20, at 7:38 PM, ben via cctech wrote: >>> On 2021-06-20 8:13 p.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: >>> >>>> Tried the Shunting Yard algorithm? But watch out, it was invented by a >>>> quiche eater... >>> >>> The problem needs backtracking to generate correct code. Stack or muilti-register machines don't have this problem with temporaries. >>> Ben. >> The parser generates a tree of the algebraic expression, the tree is representative of the evaluation order of the expression, earlier evals lower in the tree, the node at the top is the last evaluated. Then walk the tree from the bottom up to generate code. >> I think code to do this (efficient compiler code generation) has been done like a gazillion-billion times since 1960. > > Computer science people seem to like to brag about how to parse. Whatever that means. > Walking a tree does not solve the tree was built in the wrong order. No. If the tree was built in the "wrong order", then you screwed up in writing your parser. There is no great difficulty in parsing into a tree representation which can be walked to resolve your initial issue. > Parenthesis first implies input string re-scanning and text movement. Whatever that means. You don't have to "move text" to accomplish this. > This what I can't seem to find a good algorithm for. In summary fashion, I told you how it's done. If you don't understand state machines and parsing that's your problem. As it is, you are running into the same issue a thousand minicomputer & microproc manufacturers and designers ran into in the 60/70s: building and maintaining the support ecosystem for a machine architecture is not trivial. But I should know better than to bother. > FORTRAN II and IV did quite well before all this computer science. FORTRAN solved real world problems, ALGOL has yet to have I/O. LISP still can't be compiled.PASCAL is only educational problems, and C mutated into Monster. JAVA is not open source. > > Very little new stuff is on multi-pass parsing.I have a 70's computer design of modest word length (20 bits) that needs 1970's computer science, and 64KB of memory and removable disks. > Ben. From lars at nocrew.org Mon Jun 21 00:50:12 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 05:50:12 +0000 Subject: VT100 colors Message-ID: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I have asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has it looking neutral grey: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 01:06:15 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 23:06:15 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Some may find this paper interesting on the FORTRAN I compiler: https://www.cs.fsu.edu/~lacher/courses/COT4401/notes/cise_v2_i1/fortran.pdf I will add that the diagnostic error messages for FORTRAN I were pretty good for the time. Missing a comma in a computed GOTO? There was an error message that directly addressed this error. Back when I was still in the business of writing compilers, the "Dragon Book" ("Compilers: Principles, Techniques and Tools", Aho, Sethi; Ullman) was the standard reference. I don't know if it still is. The earlier book by Saul Rosen is also pretty good. FORTRAN (as opposed to Fortran) is somewhat odd lexically when compared with other languages. There are no reserved words, there is no concept of whitespace (except in Hollerith constants) and combinations of EQUIVALENCE and COMMON have sent many a compiler designer to tipple. But there are lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat. When I had to produce an extended BASIC compiler for the 8085 using only a floppy-disk MDS 800 system, I adopted a technique I learned from an old IBM COMTRAN compiler guru. Lay out the semantics of your compiler; lexical elements, their characteristics, etc. and then think of them as tokens for a hypothetical machine that takes as input lexical elements and produces some sort of code as output. Initially, my exposure to this technique was in a COBOL dialect translator--you took more or less standard COBOL as input and produced bastardized COBOL as output. You design the instruction set of your hypothetical machine, then either interpret it or use those instructions to produce macro calls. ASM80 on ISIS II had a relatively weak macro facility, so we wrote the macro processor in PL/M. Worked like a charm--in 4 months we had a working compiler. I still have the design paper that I wrote for it. For whatever an old man's story is worth... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 01:13:15 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 23:13:15 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> Message-ID: In an earlier message, I referred to the Aho et al. "Dragon Book" and then incorrectly cited the 1986 "Red Dragon Book". My reference was the 1977 "Green Dragon Book", also by Aho et al, but carrying the title of "Principles of Compiler Design". Gotta keep my dragons straight. --Chuck From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 10:41:36 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 11:41:36 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> TYDAC (TYpical Digital Automatic Computer) is very much an instruction set of its time. Memory is 2000 words of ten decimal digits and sign. Words are either numbers or instructions. I/O is punch cards, special typewriter, or a paper-tape reading device on the typewriter. Four magnetic tapes are assumed as auxiliary memory. ALU includes an Accumulator (11 digits + sign) and Multiply-Quotient (10 digits + sign). Instruction set includes floating-decimal add, multiply, and divide. 46 instructions (out of a possible 100) are defined. -----Original Message----- From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:51 AM To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Early Programming Books Paul, I assumed that was the case, but the inclusion of the Wilkes book confused me. I think there really is a spectrum of books, so say pre-1955 all books assumed the reader had little knowledge of programming. For example the MK1 guide I pointed you to is V2. Its rumoured that Turing wrote V1 and no one could understand it but I think it more likely the machine changed. I also looked at the IBM 701 manuals and they too have some generic info at the front. However I also wonder what the earliest books were like. Dave G4UGM (You might want to e-mail Simon Lavington https://www.essex.ac.uk/people/lavin12900/simon-lavington he has done a lot of research on early computing, and might know more.) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Birkel > Sent: 20 June 2021 13:40 > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Dave; > > I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine > specific. > That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for > execution. > > Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. > Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. > > In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a > language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books > specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were > eventually such books for ALGOL 60. > > Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken > (1961: > Guide to FORTRAN Programming). > > Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the > Manchester MK1. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM > To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Paul, > What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 > programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- > > https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org > /kgill/m > ark1/progman.html > > In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in effect > machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other machines? > > I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is > dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have > been earlier editions. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel > > via cctech > > Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Early Programming Books > > > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > > Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing > > Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > From gavin at learn.bio Sun Jun 20 11:18:13 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 11:18:13 -0500 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: A few years later, but Iverson's A Programming Language (1962) was written before APL was actually implemented and is all about a symbolic mathematical notation for expressing operations. From the preface via Wikipedia: "Applied mathematics is largely concerned with the design and analysis of explicit procedures for calculating the exact or approximate values of various functions. Such explicit procedures are called algorithms or programs. Because an effective notation for the description of programs exhibits considerable syntactic structure, it is called a programming language." So I would definitely include it in the category of books you're asking about. On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 3:44 AM Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 20 11:34:18 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:34:18 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> Aside from the very general Algol report and the Iverson book on APL, I have to admit that most of my programming knowledge came out of manufacturer's manuals, specific to a maker's systems. The APL book was, at the time, pretty much useless for writing any sort of serious code until you got hold of the manual for a particular system that you were going to use. Even the early McCracken books on FORTRAN had a section in the rear that attempted to gloss over different manufacturer's features and "extensions" (e.g. What does "B" punched in column 1 of a FORTRAN statement card mean--and for what system?) Lest anyone forget, that in the pre-1960 world, a lot more of production code was written in the assembly code/autocoder of a particular system. Even the DEC "Introduction to Programming" dealt specifically with the PDP-8 and was useless for the PDP-10. ACM CALGO back then accepted algorithm submissions in FORTRAN or Algol, but that's hardly an instructional text. I guess the question boils down to 'In the world before 1960, how *useful* was a general book on programming?" --Chuck From turing at shaw.ca Sun Jun 20 12:19:22 2021 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 11:19:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1662507583.185504219.1624209562954.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Basically, pre-1960, there couldn't be a 'general book on programming', since every system was a unique environment - the only languages that could even be remotely considered to be common were ALGOL 60 and FORTRAN II... and they were 'extended' by every manufacturer to provide, at least, some form of I/O beyond line printers and punch card readers / punches or to support different character sets. Algorithms could be written in ALGOL or FORTRAN, but usually had to be 'translated' to the particular flavour of the language provided by the manufacturer... [Even well past 1960, FORTRAN implementations drifted from standards... for example, FORTRAN on the Data General Nova supported recursive functions, something that was would cause massive problems on other systems...] From: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" To: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:34:18 AM Subject: Re: Early Programming Books Aside from the very general Algol report and the Iverson book on APL, I have to admit that most of my programming knowledge came out of manufacturer's manuals, specific to a maker's systems. The APL book was, at the time, pretty much useless for writing any sort of serious code until you got hold of the manual for a particular system that you were going to use. Even the early McCracken books on FORTRAN had a section in the rear that attempted to gloss over different manufacturer's features and "extensions" (e.g. What does "B" punched in column 1 of a FORTRAN statement card mean--and for what system?) Lest anyone forget, that in the pre-1960 world, a lot more of production code was written in the assembly code/autocoder of a particular system. Even the DEC "Introduction to Programming" dealt specifically with the PDP-8 and was useless for the PDP-10. ACM CALGO back then accepted algorithm submissions in FORTRAN or Algol, but that's hardly an instructional text. I guess the question boils down to 'In the world before 1960, how *useful* was a general book on programming?" --Chuck From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 12:40:20 2021 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:40:20 -0500 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <1662507583.185504219.1624209562954.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> <1662507583.185504219.1624209562954.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <19A44263-6A6C-40DC-A7B9-F6BE427CE5E9@gmail.com> > On Jun 20, 2021, at 12:19 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctech wrote: > > Basically, pre-1960, there couldn't be a 'general book on programming', since every system was a unique environment - the only languages that could even be remotely considered to be common were ALGOL 60 and FORTRAN II... and they were 'extended' by every manufacturer to provide, at least, some form of I/O beyond line printers and punch card readers / punches or to support different character sets. > Algorithms could be written in ALGOL or FORTRAN, but usually had to be 'translated' to the particular flavour of the language provided by the manufacturer... > [Even well past 1960, FORTRAN implementations drifted from standards... for example, FORTRAN on the Data General Nova supported recursive functions, something that was would cause massive problems on other systems...] > > From: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" > To: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:34:18 AM > Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > > Aside from the very general Algol report and the Iverson book on APL, I > have to admit that most of my programming knowledge came out of > manufacturer's manuals, specific to a maker's systems. > > The APL book was, at the time, pretty much useless for writing any sort > of serious code until you got hold of the manual for a particular system > that you were going to use. Even the early McCracken books on FORTRAN > had a section in the rear that attempted to gloss over different > manufacturer's features and "extensions" (e.g. What does "B" punched in > column 1 of a FORTRAN statement card mean--and for what system?) > > Lest anyone forget, that in the pre-1960 world, a lot more of production > code was written in the assembly code/autocoder of a particular system. > Even the DEC "Introduction to Programming" dealt specifically with the > PDP-8 and was useless for the PDP-10. > > ACM CALGO back then accepted algorithm submissions in FORTRAN or Algol, > but that's hardly an instructional text. > > I guess the question boils down to 'In the world before 1960, how > *useful* was a general book on programming?" > > --Chuck Don?t forget about Rem Rand?s Flow-Matic compiler language for Univac I & II. -C http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/flow-matic/U1518_FLOW-MATIC_Programming_System_1958.pdf From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 20 12:46:56 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 10:46:56 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8732a9aa-abfe-7ff1-d98e-dc8fe03ed53a@sydex.com> Going back to the time around 1960, I'd like to venture the opinion that most data processing of the time was performed with unit-record equipment. That is, sorters, reproducing punches, interpreters, accounting machines, etc., none of which were programmed by "software", but by wiring plugboards or selecting operation from fixed controls. Perhaps there were instructional tests in that area. After all, card sorters pretty much operate on the same principles. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 14:24:11 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 15:24:11 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Very good question! Bill On Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:44 AM Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 14:30:49 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 15:30:49 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul, I have been compiling a library of such. Ioks here, if you are traveling north swing by to review the books on hand. The one that comes to mind is Thinking Machunrs by Berkeley but here on the patio at my parents house I dont know the date. Harvard press put out some early computing books but they may be Mark 1-specific. Remind me and I can check when I get to the office. Bill Kennettclasic.com On Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 4:44 AM Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 15:00:50 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 21:00:50 +0100 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <049801d7660e$f82b46c0$e881d440$@gmail.com> Paul, What about Approximations for Digital Computers Cecil Hastings Jr., Jeanne T. Wayward, and James P. Wong Jr. Whilst its about a specific problem its not machine specific. It was originally published as papers in 1955 and as book later, but my copy retains its 1955 copyright. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Birkel > Sent: 20 June 2021 13:40 > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Dave; > > I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine > specific. > That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for > execution. > > Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. > Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. > > In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a > language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books > specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were > eventually such books for ALGOL 60. > > Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken > (1961: > Guide to FORTRAN Programming). > > Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the > Manchester MK1. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM > To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Early Programming Books > > Paul, > What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 > programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- > > https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org > /kgill/m > ark1/progman.html > > In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in effect > machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other machines? > > I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is > dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have > been earlier editions. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech On Behalf Of Paul Birkel > > via cctech > > Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Early Programming Books > > > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > > Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing > > Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 15:14:27 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jun 2021, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > Paul, > I have been compiling a library of such. Ioks here, if you are traveling > north swing by to review the books on hand. The one that comes to mind is > Thinking Machunrs by Berkeley but here on the patio at my parents house I > dont know the date. Harvard press put out some early computing books but > they may be Mark 1-specific. Remind me and I can check when I get to the > office. > Bill > Kennettclasic.com 1949 Edmund Berkeley "Giant Brains, Or Machines That Think" It wasn't until Jim Warren that that phrase got corrected to "machine WHO think", as isn't thinking the measure of which pronoun to use? It seems to me that there were a few basic genres: books that were references for a specific machine or language (often the "standards" were loose enough that it would be a specific implementation of a language on a specific machine) and books about theory and principles of computing, and books that purported to be about theory and principles, but that were closely tied to a specific machine or language -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 20 16:06:19 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 17:06:19 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <1662507583.185504219.1624209562954.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> <1662507583.185504219.1624209562954.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <73DDC73D-CB2F-4C68-B114-04BC821FCA4F@comcast.net> > On Jun 20, 2021, at 1:19 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctech wrote: > > Basically, pre-1960, there couldn't be a 'general book on programming', since every system was a unique environment - the only languages that could even be remotely considered to be common were ALGOL 60 and FORTRAN II... and they were 'extended' by every manufacturer to provide, at least, some form of I/O beyond line printers and punch card readers / punches or to support different character sets. True, unless you were to set out to write a general course on programming that doesn't dig down to the level of any particular assembly language or machine architecture. From a quick look, I think the 1957 course by Dekker, Dijkstra, and van Wijngaarden I mentioned in my previous note does just that. And that explains the title, "Programming automatic calculating machines" (as opposed to the more common "Programming the xyzzy-42 machine"). paul From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 20 16:08:38 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 14:08:38 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2021-06-20 at 04:43 -0400, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. Not about early EARLY programming, but I have some books (manuals) that are yours if you send me a PDF of a shipping label for a 10"x12" 1lb 2oz envelope (media rate might be less expensive than first class): 1. 68000 Microprocessor Handbook, Gerry Kane, Osborne / McGraw-Hill (1981) ISBN 0-931988-41-1 2. MC68901 Multi-Function Peripheral, Motorola, ADI-984 (Jan. 1984) 3. MC68881 Floating-Point Coprocessor as a Peripheral in an MC68000 System, Motorola AN947 (1987) 4. HCMOS Floating-Point Coprocessor: MC68881 Technical Summary, Motorola BR265/D Rev.1 (1986) Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jun 20 17:06:15 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:06:15 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> Message-ID: <195cc39f-e1fe-1154-e16e-6159904ac103@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/18/21 5:50 PM, Wayne S via cctech wrote: > We didn't really need Regis graphics so we never tested that out. I'm not sure what the OP's use case is, but if they / you are wanting ReGIS (or Sixel) graphics, XTerm supports (both of) them. Incidentally, I have my XTerm configured to set it's decTerminalID to vt340. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paul at mcjones.org Sun Jun 20 20:37:52 2021 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 18:37:52 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1955: An Introduction to Automatic Computers (Ned Chapin ) I have the second edition ? copyright 1963. Chapter 8 is ?Elements of Programming? with a fully-worked out assembly language example for a hypothetical machine. > Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 04:43:58 -0400 > From: "Paul Birkel" > > > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 20 21:06:26 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 20:06:26 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-06-20 6:57 a.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: > On 2021-06-20 1:39 p.m., Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: >> Dave; >> >> I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine >> specific. >> That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for >> execution. > > Not sure if it's what you are looking for, but if you haven't, check out > "Classic Operating Systems" by Per Brinch Hansen. > >> >> Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. >> Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. >> >> In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a >> language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books >> specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were >> eventually such books for ALGOL 60. > > Pretty sure I own one, by Dijkstra. Will get details later if you are > interested. > > --Toby I suspect after 1958 people stopped thinking of real world programming problems. All the general programming books, seem to want to get rid of the "goto" or have Strange-multi-level variables or procedures or just use unbounded memory. Operating system books have chapters about some logic construct only to state later in the book, "That does not apply to this system setup". My latest gripe, is I still am looking for a algorithm to generate code for a single accumulator machine for an arithmetic expression. Parenthesis need to evaluated first and temporary variables allotted, thus a two pass algorithm. Everything is single pass. Recursive decent can parse but can't generate 'correct' code. A-(B+C) is LD B ADD C ST T1 LD A SUB T1, not LD A ST T1 LD B ST T2 LD C ADD T2 NEGATE ADD T1 Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jun 20 21:13:18 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:13:18 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-06-20 10:06 p.m., ben via cctech wrote: > On 2021-06-20 6:57 a.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: >> On 2021-06-20 1:39 p.m., Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: >>> Dave; >>> >>> I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine >>> specific. >>> That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for >>> execution. >> >> Not sure if it's what you are looking for, but if you haven't, check out >> "Classic Operating Systems" by Per Brinch Hansen. >> >>> >>> Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. >>> Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. >>> >>> In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a >>> language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any >>> books >>> specifically about programming in ALGOL 58.? I presume that there were >>> eventually such books for ALGOL 60. >> >> Pretty sure I own one, by Dijkstra. Will get details later if you are >> interested. >> >> --Toby > > I suspect after 1958 people stopped thinking of real world programming > problems. All the general programming books, seem to want to get rid of > the "goto" or have Strange-multi-level variables or procedures or just Structured Programming is even manifested in a language as neckbeardy as C; it's not only for quiche eaters any more. > use unbounded memory. Operating system books have chapters about some > logic construct only to state later in the book, "That does not apply > to this system setup". > My latest gripe, is I still am looking for a algorithm to generate > code for a single accumulator machine for an arithmetic expression. Tried the Shunting Yard algorithm? But watch out, it was invented by a quiche eater... > Parenthesis need to evaluated first and temporary variables allotted, > thus a two pass algorithm. Everything is single pass. Recursive decent > can parse but can't generate 'correct' code. A-(B+C) is LD B ADD C ST T1 > LD A SUB T1, not LD A ST T1 LD B ST T2 LD C ADD T2 NEGATE ADD T1 > Ben. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 20 21:38:46 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 20:38:46 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2021-06-20 8:13 p.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: > Tried the Shunting Yard algorithm? But watch out, it was invented by a > quiche eater... The problem needs backtracking to generate correct code. Stack or muilti-register machines don't have this problem with temporaries. Ben. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Jun 20 21:56:05 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 19:56:05 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2021-Jun-20, at 7:38 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > On 2021-06-20 8:13 p.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: > >> Tried the Shunting Yard algorithm? But watch out, it was invented by a >> quiche eater... > > The problem needs backtracking to generate correct code. Stack or muilti-register machines don't have this problem with temporaries. > Ben. The parser generates a tree of the algebraic expression, the tree is representative of the evaluation order of the expression, earlier evals lower in the tree, the node at the top is the last evaluated. Then walk the tree from the bottom up to generate code. I think code to do this (efficient compiler code generation) has been done like a gazillion-billion times since 1960. From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Sun Jun 20 22:21:37 2021 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:21:37 +1000 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I recently scanned my copy of "Electronic Computers: Principles and Applications" by TE. Ivall (1956) and there is a chapter on "Programming Digital Computers". It is more of a general overview, rather than any machine specifics. https://archive.org/details/electronic-computers/page/183/mode/2up The book also covers analogue computers for any interested. //m *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 at 18:44, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming > books. > > > > 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer > (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) > > 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) > > > > What others were published prior to the McCracken text? > > > > Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: > > > > 1946: Moore School Lectures > > 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating > Machinery > > 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital > Calculating Machinery > > 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines > > > > These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new > hardware. > > > > I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. > Were there others prior to McCracken? > > > > paul > > > > From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 01:48:17 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 23:48:17 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 2021-06-20 at 23:06 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Some may find this paper interesting on the FORTRAN I compiler: > https://www.cs.fsu.edu/~lacher/courses/COT4401/notes/cise_v2_i1/fortran.pdf > > I will add that the diagnostic error messages for FORTRAN I were > prettygood for the time. Missing a comma in a computed GOTO? There > was anerror message that directly addressed this error. > Back when I was still in the business of writing compilers, the > "DragonBook" ("Compilers: Principles, Techniques and Tools", Aho, > Sethi;Ullman) was the standard reference. I don't know if it still > is. Theearlier book by Saul Rosen is also pretty good. > FORTRAN (as opposed to Fortran) is somewhat odd lexically when > comparedwith other languages. There are no reserved words, there is > no conceptof whitespace (except in Hollerith constants) and > combinations ofEQUIVALENCE and COMMON have sent many a compiler > designer to tipple. You also might like https://www.cs.sjsu.edu/~mak/CMPE152/IBM1401FORTRANCompiler.pdf "Serial Compilation and the IBM 1401 FORTRAN Compiler." 1401-FO-050 was more than FORTRAN I but less than FORTRAN II. The innovation was interesting. The first overlay read the program into core. The next 62 gradually massaged it into executabe form. No auxiliary storage -- tape or disk -- was used. The compiler would run from cards (a bit more than one full box) or tape. There's a video of it running at CHM on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFQ3sajIdaM. Fortran 2020 is rather different from FORTRAN I. There are still no reserved words, but blanks are significant so you can't put them within a variable, constant, keyword, or operator. But a blank is optional within some keywords, such as ENDIF is allowed instead of END IF. It's also a modern language. FORTRAN 77 was criticized for not providing dynamic memory and structured data types. Those were included in Fortran 90, along with modules,explicit interfaces, significant blanks, free-form input.... Fortran 2003 added object-oriented programming, based on the SIMULA model, C interoperability, .... Fortran 2008 added a much simpler SPMD parallel programming model, called coarrays -- much easier to use than PVM or MPI. > But there are lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat. When I had > toproduce an extended BASIC compiler for the 8085 using only a > floppy-diskMDS 800 system, I adopted a technique I learned from an > old IBM COMTRANcompiler guru. Lay out the semantics of your > compiler; lexicalelements, their characteristics, etc. and then think > of them as tokensfor a hypothetical machine that takes as input > lexical elements andproduces some sort of code as output. Initially, > my exposure to thistechnique was in a COBOL dialect translator--you > took more or lessstandard COBOL as input and produced bastardized > COBOL as output. > You design the instruction set of your hypothetical machine, then > eitherinterpret it or use those instructions to produce macro > calls. ASM80 onISIS II had a relatively weak macro facility, so we > wrote the macroprocessor in PL/M. Worked like a charm--in 4 months > we had a workingcompiler. I still have the design paper that I wrote > for it. > For whatever an old man's story is worth... > --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jun 21 01:51:58 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 23:51:58 -0700 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> I want to say that it?s white. Though I can?t get to mine right now. Zane Sent from my iPod > On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:50 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it > looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I have > asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has it > looking neutral grey: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg > > And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. > > I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 02:05:49 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 00:05:49 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Sun, 2021-06-20 at 23:13 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > In an earlier message, I referred to the Aho et al. "Dragon Book" and > then incorrectly cited the 1986 "Red Dragon Book". My reference was > the 1977 "Green Dragon Book", also by Aho et al, but carrying the title > of "Principles of Compiler Design". > > Gotta keep my dragons straight. When I was teaching compiler classes, I liked Richard J. Le Blanc's "Crafting a Compiler." I used Waite and Goos once. It was precise but a bit too terse for the students. The compiler structure I taught was based upon work of Frank de Remer and Tom Pennello, but their book "Compiler Construction by Hand and by Tool" never saw print. Frank de Remer simplified LR with its potentially exponential growth, to SLR and LALR in his MIT Ph.D. thesis. Yacc (written by Robert Corbett, still a denizen of the Fortran committees) is a LALR parser generator. I use the generator written by Al Shannon when he was Charlie Wetherell's student, now updated, which implements David Pager's algorithm that generates a parser that is LR where necessary and LALR or SLR or LR(0) where possible. > > --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 02:07:59 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 03:07:59 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <195cc39f-e1fe-1154-e16e-6159904ac103@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <195cc39f-e1fe-1154-e16e-6159904ac103@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 2:47 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 6/18/21 5:50 PM, Wayne S via cctech wrote: > > We didn't really need Regis graphics so we never tested that out. > > I'm not sure what the OP's use case is, but if they / you are wanting > ReGIS (or Sixel) graphics, XTerm supports (both of) them. I'm not the OP, but I'm interested in fiddling with ReGIS a little. I just pulled out my VS240 and fired it up. Right now, I have a VR201 on it, but I also have a VR241 for it as well. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 02:17:03 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 00:17:03 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> On 6/20/21 11:48 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > You also might like > https://www.cs.sjsu.edu/~mak/CMPE152/IBM1401FORTRANCompiler.pdf "Serial > Compilation and the IBM 1401 FORTRAN Compiler." > 1401-FO-050 was more than FORTRAN I but less than FORTRAN II. > The innovation was interesting.... I remember compiling FORTRAN II on a 1620 using the card compiler (no disk and no operating system). You read the first pass of the compiler in (load up the card reader and hit LOAD on the console) which included the addition and multiplication tables. You then read in the source deck; while that was reading a duplicate with annotation was punched, followed by the symbol table. You then read in the second pass of the compiler along with the just-punched deck, and an object deck was punched. Load the runtime library in with the object deck and you're good to go. It's been over 50 years since I last did this, so I may have gotten something wrong in my wetware. But you get the general idea. This was very different from compiling when the 1620 had a 1311 disk drive attached. There was an operating system of sorts and real JCL. --Chuck From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 02:26:03 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 03:26:03 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018701d7666e$b17bb830$14732890$@gmail.com> Thanks Bill. Presume that you mean ?Giant Brains, or Machines that Think? (1949)? Conveniently scanned and online: https://monoskop.org/images/b/bc/Berkeley_Edmund_Callis_Giant_Brains_or_Machines_That_Think.pdf From: Bill Degnan [mailto:billdegnan at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 3:31 PM To: Paul Birkel; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Early Programming Books Paul, I have been compiling a library of such. Ioks here, if you are traveling north swing by to review the books on hand. The one that comes to mind is Thinking Machunrs by Berkeley but here on the patio at my parents house I dont know the date. Harvard press put out some early computing books but they may be Mark 1-specific. Remind me and I can check when I get to the office. Bill Kennettclasic.com From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 02:30:46 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 03:30:46 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <049801d7660e$f82b46c0$e881d440$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <049801d7660e$f82b46c0$e881d440$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018c01d7666f$59e40e00$0dac2a00$@gmail.com> Sounds very promising, thank you for the tip. -----Original Message----- From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 4:01 PM To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Early Programming Books Paul, What about Approximations for Digital Computers Cecil Hastings Jr., Jeanne T. Wayward, and James P. Wong Jr. Whilst its about a specific problem its not machine specific. It was originally published as papers in 1955 and as book later, but my copy retains its 1955 copyright. Dave From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 02:38:02 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 03:38:02 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018d01d76670$5dcf5c80$196e1580$@gmail.com> Thank you Michael, for both the pointer and the scan :-}. From: Michael Mulhern [mailto:Michael at jongleur.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 11:22 PM To: Paul Birkel; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Early Programming Books I recently scanned my copy of "Electronic Computers: Principles and Applications" by TE. Ivall (1956) and there is a chapter on "Programming Digital Computers". It is more of a general overview, rather than any machine specifics. https://archive.org/details/electronic-computers/page/183/mode/2up The book also covers analogue computers for any interested. //m From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 03:07:21 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 04:07:21 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <20C72ED1-3E51-4302-AD3E-A9E14A612C3B@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20C72ED1-3E51-4302-AD3E-A9E14A612C3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <019a01d76674$763fef60$62bfce20$@gmail.com> Thank you for the references Paul. Found it at: www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/MCReps/CR1957-009.PDF Also found "Course on programming in ALGOL 60 (11th Edition)" (1970): https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/MCReps/CR1970-013.PDF Now I need to translate them from Dutch. Perhaps there already exists an English translation of either? -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning via cctech Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 4:58 PM To: Norman Jaffe; cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Norman Jaffe via cctalk > Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > Date: June 20, 2021 at 10:26:27 AM EDT > To: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" > Reply-To: Norman Jaffe , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > I have two books on ALGOL 60 from 1962 - > A Guide to ALGOL Programming, Daniel D. McCracken > A Primer Of ALGOL 60 Programming, E.W. Dijkstra Dijkstra and Zonneveld wrote the first ALGOL compiler in 1961, so there might be documents from that time, most likely in the CWI (Mathematical Center) archives. There's a course textbook on programming that is not machine specific, by Dekker, Dijkstra and van Wijngaarden, "Course on programming automatic calculating machines", November 1957. It's quite extensive; the document is 110 pages long. paul From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 03:07:21 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 04:07:21 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <20C72ED1-3E51-4302-AD3E-A9E14A612C3B@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <2088042841.184862368.1624199187643.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20C72ED1-3E51-4302-AD3E-A9E14A612C3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <019a01d76674$763fef60$62bfce20$@gmail.com> Thank you for the references Paul. Found it at: www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/MCReps/CR1957-009.PDF Also found "Course on programming in ALGOL 60 (11th Edition)" (1970): https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/MCReps/CR1970-013.PDF Now I need to translate them from Dutch. Perhaps there already exists an English translation of either? -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning via cctech Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 4:58 PM To: Norman Jaffe; cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Norman Jaffe via cctalk > Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > Date: June 20, 2021 at 10:26:27 AM EDT > To: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only" > Reply-To: Norman Jaffe , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > I have two books on ALGOL 60 from 1962 - > A Guide to ALGOL Programming, Daniel D. McCracken > A Primer Of ALGOL 60 Programming, E.W. Dijkstra Dijkstra and Zonneveld wrote the first ALGOL compiler in 1961, so there might be documents from that time, most likely in the CWI (Mathematical Center) archives. There's a course textbook on programming that is not machine specific, by Dekker, Dijkstra and van Wijngaarden, "Course on programming automatic calculating machines", November 1957. It's quite extensive; the document is 110 pages long. paul From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Jun 21 03:35:07 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:35:07 +0200 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 08:06:26PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > My latest gripe, is I still am looking for a algorithm to generate code > for a single accumulator machine for an arithmetic expression. Parenthesis > need to evaluated first and temporary variables allotted, thus a two pass > algorithm. Everything is single pass. Recursive decent can parse but can't > generate 'correct' code. A-(B+C) is LD B ADD C ST T1 LD A SUB T1, not LD A > ST T1 LD B ST T2 LD C ADD T2 NEGATE ADD T1 TL;DR: you're probably setting so many implicit design constrants that such an algorithm cannot exist. That accumulator machine sounds a bit like the 6502, for which there are plenty of BASIC interpreters which can parse and evaluate that expression. BBC BASIC is my favourite, but Apple's or Microsoft's implementation also do the job. The ones I've looked at were recursive-descent. Other more advanced parsers take too much precious memory. The modern hotness for parsing is parser combinators, but they're really just a fancy way to write recursive-descent parsers which are easier to read and reason about. They certainly can parse something as simple as "A-(B+C)", since recursive-descent can. Code-generation is a whole different can of worms and unlike the well-trodden path of parsing, is still not a solved problem in computer science. All of the compiler textbooks I've checked, including the infamous Dragon book, handwave code generation, introducing the tree-matching algorithm which works well for straight-line code on their made-up educational CPU architectures, but leaves a lot on the table with real-world CPUs. This limitation probably doesn't matter for your CPU. It seems that you might want to produce code directly from parsing. This shortcut can work if you're producing code for a stack machine such as FORTH, but not a register machine (unless you use your registers as a stack). A common wheeze on the 6502 is to implement a virtual stack machine interpreter, and then the compiler targets that. To do code-generation "properly", you need a multi-pass algorithm: parse the source into a tree, optionally do tree-to-tree transformations to do type checks and/or apply optimisations, and then apply the tree-matching algorithm to that to produce machine code. This is all well-described in any good compiler textbook. Note that except for trivial expressions, you'll need a stack and/or other registers to squirrel away intemediate results. Consider "(A*B)-(C*D)": you need to save the result of one of the multiplications before doing the other and then the subtraction. In the case of the tree-matching algorithm, if your CPU (or rather, the model given to the tree-matcher) is too limited to evaluate a given expression, it will definitively fail and give you a subtree that it cannot match. You then have the "joy" of fixing the model, possibly by adding virtual instructions which are really library calls. For a simple CPU, such calls might account for most of the generated code, at which point a virtual machine becomes a good idea. The book "Writing interactive compilers and interpreters" may be more suitable if you're looking for quick hacks to get up and running on a small machine, assuming you can lay your hands on a copy. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Jun 21 03:35:07 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:35:07 +0200 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 08:06:26PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > My latest gripe, is I still am looking for a algorithm to generate code > for a single accumulator machine for an arithmetic expression. Parenthesis > need to evaluated first and temporary variables allotted, thus a two pass > algorithm. Everything is single pass. Recursive decent can parse but can't > generate 'correct' code. A-(B+C) is LD B ADD C ST T1 LD A SUB T1, not LD A > ST T1 LD B ST T2 LD C ADD T2 NEGATE ADD T1 TL;DR: you're probably setting so many implicit design constrants that such an algorithm cannot exist. That accumulator machine sounds a bit like the 6502, for which there are plenty of BASIC interpreters which can parse and evaluate that expression. BBC BASIC is my favourite, but Apple's or Microsoft's implementation also do the job. The ones I've looked at were recursive-descent. Other more advanced parsers take too much precious memory. The modern hotness for parsing is parser combinators, but they're really just a fancy way to write recursive-descent parsers which are easier to read and reason about. They certainly can parse something as simple as "A-(B+C)", since recursive-descent can. Code-generation is a whole different can of worms and unlike the well-trodden path of parsing, is still not a solved problem in computer science. All of the compiler textbooks I've checked, including the infamous Dragon book, handwave code generation, introducing the tree-matching algorithm which works well for straight-line code on their made-up educational CPU architectures, but leaves a lot on the table with real-world CPUs. This limitation probably doesn't matter for your CPU. It seems that you might want to produce code directly from parsing. This shortcut can work if you're producing code for a stack machine such as FORTH, but not a register machine (unless you use your registers as a stack). A common wheeze on the 6502 is to implement a virtual stack machine interpreter, and then the compiler targets that. To do code-generation "properly", you need a multi-pass algorithm: parse the source into a tree, optionally do tree-to-tree transformations to do type checks and/or apply optimisations, and then apply the tree-matching algorithm to that to produce machine code. This is all well-described in any good compiler textbook. Note that except for trivial expressions, you'll need a stack and/or other registers to squirrel away intemediate results. Consider "(A*B)-(C*D)": you need to save the result of one of the multiplications before doing the other and then the subtraction. In the case of the tree-matching algorithm, if your CPU (or rather, the model given to the tree-matcher) is too limited to evaluate a given expression, it will definitively fail and give you a subtree that it cannot match. You then have the "joy" of fixing the model, possibly by adding virtual instructions which are really library calls. For a simple CPU, such calls might account for most of the generated code, at which point a virtual machine becomes a good idea. The book "Writing interactive compilers and interpreters" may be more suitable if you're looking for quick hacks to get up and running on a small machine, assuming you can lay your hands on a copy. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 21 03:39:42 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 02:39:42 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-06-21 12:06 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Some may find this paper interesting on the FORTRAN I compiler: > > https://www.cs.fsu.edu/~lacher/courses/COT4401/notes/cise_v2_i1/fortran.pdf > > I will add that the diagnostic error messages for FORTRAN I were pretty > good for the time. Missing a comma in a computed GOTO? There was an > error message that directly addressed this error. > > Back when I was still in the business of writing compilers, the "Dragon > Book" ("Compilers: Principles, Techniques and Tools", Aho, Sethi; > Ullman) was the standard reference. I don't know if it still is. The > earlier book by Saul Rosen is also pretty good. I have 'borrowed' copy of the Green dragon book. The book promotes code generation for a multi register machine. PDP 11, PDP 10, IBM 360. "(C) Bell Labs 1979 " I think is big hint here. The machine model I am looking at is a single accumulator design like the 6800 or the IBM 1130. A AC,PC,Index and stack. No push or pop, subroutine call returns the old pc in the AC. > FORTRAN (as opposed to Fortran) is somewhat odd lexically when compared > with other languages. There are no reserved words, there is no concept > of whitespace (except in Hollerith constants) and combinations of > EQUIVALENCE and COMMON have sent many a compiler designer to tipple. Is Fortran the newer version of FORTRAN ( I II IV )? > But there are lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat. When I had to > produce an extended BASIC compiler for the 8085 using only a floppy-disk > MDS 800 system, I adopted a technique I learned from an old IBM COMTRAN > compiler guru. Lay out the semantics of your compiler; lexical > elements, their characteristics, etc. and then think of them as tokens > for a hypothetical machine that takes as input lexical elements and > produces some sort of code as output. Initially, my exposure to this > technique was in a COBOL dialect translator--you took more or less > standard COBOL as input and produced bastardized COBOL as output There is very little to to bootstrap with today, that uses a small amount of memory.I need a cross compiler for my machine like K&R C style compiler ,not the latest C+-#@? compiler. I have no problem with a recursive decent compiler,I just have subtract divide and mod reversed in places, something I want to avoid as well a DISPLAY's like in Algol or Pascal. > You design the instruction set of your hypothetical machine, then either > interpret it or use those instructions to produce macro calls. ASM80 on > ISIS II had a relatively weak macro facility, so we wrote the macro > processor in PL/M. Worked like a charm--in 4 months we had a working > compiler. I still have the design paper that I wrote for it. The machine works on FPGA delopment card, see the bliking lights on the kitchen table. No hypothetical here. 1) Computer Check 2) Front panel Check 3) Bootstrap loader Check 4) Software No Check Stage 4 is the problem. > For whatever an old man's story is worth... > > --Chuck Thanks. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 21 03:43:55 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 02:43:55 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 2021-06-21 1:05 a.m., Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > When I was teaching compiler classes, I liked Richard J. Le Blanc's > "Crafting a Compiler." I used Waite and Goos once. It was precise but a > bit too terse for the students. The compiler structure I taught was > based upon work of Frank de Remer and Tom Pennello, but their book > "Compiler Construction by Hand and by Tool" never saw print. Frank de > Remer simplified LR with its potentially exponential growth, to SLR and > LALR in his MIT Ph.D. thesis. Yacc (written by Robert Corbett, still a > denizen of the Fortran committees) is a LALR parser generator. I use > the generator written by Al Shannon when he was Charlie Wetherell's > student, now updated, which implements David Pager's algorithm that > generates a parser that is LR where necessary and LALR or SLR or LR(0) > where possible. > But with all this computing science, they have yet to make a clean meta compiler like Meta II, or Tree meta. From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 03:43:43 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 04:43:43 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <73DDC73D-CB2F-4C68-B114-04BC821FCA4F@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> <1662507583.185504219.1624209562954.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <73DDC73D-CB2F-4C68-B114-04BC821FCA4F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01a501d76679$8b0f2320$a12d6960$@gmail.com> Google document translate gives a modestly useful result after OCRing the UT original scan (www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/MCReps/CR1957-009.PDF). Needs significant further work for readability :-<. Deeker, et al. appear to approach the topic from the perspective of mathematics (that is, modestly abstractly) after introducing the standard von Neumann 5-part model of a machine. They keep that general description, mapping mathematical expressions to general operations within that model. TOC: 1. General Introduction to Automatic Calculators 2, The word 3. The number 4, The Command 5. Block diagrams 6. Subroutines I 7, An elaborate~ example 8. Subroutines II 9. Subroutines III 10. Speed 11. Scaling, Control and Flexibility 12. The Administrative Subroutine I 13. The Administrative Subroutine II 14. Super programs McCracken approaches the topic with the same von Neumann model of a machine but then proceeds from the perspective of a hypothetical "typical" instruction set and a modestly specific architecture (e.g. signed ten-digit storage). AFAICS neither envisions representations for characters/text and the processing thereof. Both in 1957. Something in the air :->? -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning via cctech Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 5:06 PM To: Norman Jaffe; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Early Programming Books > On Jun 20, 2021, at 1:19 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctech wrote: > > Basically, pre-1960, there couldn't be a 'general book on programming', since every system was a unique environment - the only languages that could even be remotely considered to be common were ALGOL 60 and FORTRAN II... and they were 'extended' by every manufacturer to provide, at least, some form of I/O beyond line printers and punch card readers / punches or to support different character sets. True, unless you were to set out to write a general course on programming that doesn't dig down to the level of any particular assembly language or machine architecture. From a quick look, I think the 1957 course by Dekker, Dijkstra, and van Wijngaarden I mentioned in my previous note does just that. And that explains the title, "Programming automatic calculating machines" (as opposed to the more common "Programming the xyzzy-42 machine"). paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 21 04:23:01 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 03:23:01 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 2021-06-21 2:35 a.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Code-generation is a whole different can of worms and unlike the > well-trodden path of parsing, is still not a solved problem in computer > science. All of the compiler textbooks I've checked, including the infamous > Dragon book, handwave code generation, introducing the tree-matching > algorithm which works well for straight-line code on their made-up > educational CPU architectures, but leaves a lot on the table with real-world > CPUs. This limitation probably doesn't matter for your CPU. > > It seems that you might want to produce code directly from parsing. This > shortcut can work if you're producing code for a stack machine such as > FORTH, but not a register machine (unless you use your registers as a > stack). A common wheeze on the 6502 is to implement a virtual stack machine > interpreter, and then the compiler targets that. > To do code-generation "properly", you need a multi-pass algorithm: parse the > source into a tree, optionally do tree-to-tree transformations to do type > checks and/or apply optimisations, and then apply the tree-matching > algorithm to that to produce machine code. This is all well-described in any > good compiler textbook. I want to transformatiom before full parsing expressions, as a text process. string "a+(b+c)*c" becomes "((b+c)*c)a+". > Note that except for trivial expressions, you'll need a stack and/or other > registers to squirrel away intemediate results. Consider "(A*B)-(C*D)": you > need to save the result of one of the multiplications before doing the other > and then the subtraction. They need to be saved regardless of what machine model you use. > In the case of the tree-matching algorithm, if your CPU (or rather, the > model given to the tree-matcher) is too limited to evaluate a given > expression, it will definitively fail and give you a subtree that it cannot > match. You then have the "joy" of fixing the model, possibly by adding > virtual instructions which are really library calls. For a simple CPU, such > calls might account for most of the generated code, at which point a virtual > machine becomes a good idea. I just need calls for mult,divide and special operations. The limitation is just memory and variable space compared to a larger machine. 2 addressing modes, Immediate and indexed keep it simple. The compiled language I plan to design will be simple, but records of some sort will be needed. Char,word and Real is all that you get. > The book "Writing interactive compilers and interpreters" may be more > suitable if you're looking for quick hacks to get up and running on a small > machine, assuming you can lay your hands on a copy. > Were are the books, writing assemblers and loaders? Ben. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jun 21 07:54:56 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 05:54:56 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <01a501d76679$8b0f2320$a12d6960$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> <1662507583.185504219.1624209562954.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <73DDC73D-CB2F-4C68-B114-04BC821FCA4F@comcast.net> <01a501d76679$8b0f2320$a12d6960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d9e057b-7b02-e170-5b5a-e7b3c771707e@jwsss.com> If you bring up the Android (maybe apple, too) translate and engage the camera icon an aim it at the screen, you can peruse it as well. It would be cool to find some utility to break up the PDF if the OCR is accurate enough and re-assemble it in some fashion similar to the auto camera translation, so that the formatting and illustrations could be retained in the translted document. thanks Jim On 6/21/2021 1:43 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > Google document translate From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jun 21 08:02:41 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 06:02:41 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/21/2021 12:17 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > It's been over 50 years since I last did this, so I may have gotten > something wrong in my wetware. But you get the general idea. The University of Southwestern Louisiana had a running (actually two CPUs) and a reader punch and printer that I was able to do this with.? 1974.? I suspect destroyed as they didn't appreciate such. They had it in storage and I pulled it out and restored it.? That I could isn't a credit to me, but to the bullet proof IBM (or close enough or me) nature of it, and great manuals. They did keep the Microdata 3200 which is in the Computer History Museum, and was on display prior to their current exhibit layout. That 1620 would have been a fantastic addition to their running display.? Much easier to work on than what it sounds like the 1401 is.? And with a duplicate backup. thanks Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jun 21 08:07:17 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 06:07:17 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <91e9e9cb-1b59-5864-9de5-278aa9529b72@jwsss.com> On 6/21/2021 1:43 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> > But with all this computing science, they have yet to make a clean > meta compiler like Meta II, or Tree meta. The compiler structure used in Pick is pretty much like this. XPL by William M. McKeeman and others which Microdata used to create the MPL and EPL languages which were the basis for the 3200 OSs was a cross compiler with the starter kit running in the Microdata case on an IBM 360. thanks Jim From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 08:27:06 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 09:27:06 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0BC5F9B8-7DF0-4AC3-8C4F-9623DB1A6D24@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:19 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-06-20 9:01 p.m., Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> On 2021-Jun-20, at 7:38 PM, ben via cctech wrote: >>> On 2021-06-20 8:13 p.m., Toby Thain via cctech wrote: >>> >>>> Tried the Shunting Yard algorithm? But watch out, it was invented by a >>>> quiche eater... >>> >>> The problem needs backtracking to generate correct code. Stack or muilti-register machines don't have this problem with temporaries. >>> Ben. >> The parser generates a tree of the algebraic expression, the tree is representative of the evaluation order of the expression, earlier evals lower in the tree, the node at the top is the last evaluated. Then walk the tree from the bottom up to generate code. >> I think code to do this (efficient compiler code generation) has been done like a gazillion-billion times since 1960. > > Computer science people seem to like to brag about how to parse. Walking a tree does not solve the tree was built in the wrong order.Parenthesis first implies input string re-scanning and text movement. No, it doesn't. All it requires is a scanner with a stack. Most programming languages can be parsed without backtracking and with very limited lookahead. All this was well established in parser theory in the 1970s if not earlier. But your confusion is not unprecedented; I remember reading a parser (written in the early 1970s) written by someone who read a text book that actually claimed the same fallacy. Needless to say the parser was rather messy, though it somehow managed to get the job done. The "shunting yard" algorithm is a generalized form of the stack based expression parsing, applied to whole program parsing. It was created, I believe, by Dijkstra and Zonneveld for the ALGOL-60 compiler they wrote in 1961, the first ALGOL-60 compiler and, amazingly, an implementation of the full language (minus the mistakes), even though it ran on a machine with just 4 kW of memory. For a short description, read Dijkstra's paper describing it, in English. For a very detailed description, read the Ph.D. thesis of Gauthier van den Hove, a very impressive work of technical history writing. The purpose of the shunting yard algorithm is to allow parsing without backtracking, which is rather important on a machine without enough memory to store the source text, and one that reads the program source from a paper tape reader (which, in most of them anyway, does not come with a "reverse" feature). paul From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 04:03:35 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 05:03:35 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01b201d7667c$515c4ba0$f414e2e0$@gmail.com> Well, utility depends on the objective. One that immediately springs to mind in an era when "computing" had a dearth of practitioners would be to inform various audiences "what is involved". The Dekker (1957) reference seems to be targeted at an audience interested in expressing mathematical statements in terms of the von Neumann model, generally building up to the idea of algorithms and their general reduction to a sequence of computational steps in that model of computation. This would be a pre-ALGOL 58 world and one can see the paper as a motivation for an ALGOL- (or FORTRAN-) like language. (Caveat: I've just skimmed a poor translation; more careful study required!) The McCracken (1957) book seems to be targeted at an audience of future practitioners, giving a feel for how a hypothetical instruction set would be employed "in daily practice" to solve problems. Perhaps answering the question of "would I like to become [or could I handle becoming] a 'programmer' " in an era when that was about to become a new specialty and career path. A numerical analyst (e.g.) might find the Dekker text more accessible; an engineer might find the McCracken book more to their liking. IMO, "in the world before 1960" both are "useful" without becoming a machine-specific instruction manual or cook-book. -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctech Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 12:34 PM To: Paul Birkel via cctech Subject: Re: Early Programming Books Aside from the very general Algol report and the Iverson book on APL, I have to admit that most of my programming knowledge came out of manufacturer's manuals, specific to a maker's systems. The APL book was, at the time, pretty much useless for writing any sort of serious code until you got hold of the manual for a particular system that you were going to use. Even the early McCracken books on FORTRAN had a section in the rear that attempted to gloss over different manufacturer's features and "extensions" (e.g. What does "B" punched in column 1 of a FORTRAN statement card mean--and for what system?) Lest anyone forget, that in the pre-1960 world, a lot more of production code was written in the assembly code/autocoder of a particular system. Even the DEC "Introduction to Programming" dealt specifically with the PDP-8 and was useless for the PDP-10. ACM CALGO back then accepted algorithm submissions in FORTRAN or Algol, but that's hardly an instructional text. I guess the question boils down to 'In the world before 1960, how *useful* was a general book on programming?" --Chuck From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 08:48:32 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:48:32 +0100 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> On 21/06/2021 07:51, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I want to say that it?s white. Though I can?t get to mine right now. > > Zane > > > Sent from my iPod > >> On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:50 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it >> looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I have >> asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has it >> looking neutral grey: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg >> >> And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. >> >> I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. I can't get t mine either but I think they were originally light cream, but not bright white. I suspect that most photos have it as yellowish because that's what they are now :-) The black bits I remember as black. I remember the tube colour being green, I think I remember seeing amber and I believe that white was an available option. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 08:53:44 2021 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:53:44 +0200 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 at 07:50, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it > looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I have > asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has it > looking neutral grey: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg > > And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. > > I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. I remember them as essentially white and black. Not white like paper, but slightly colder, kind of. That image on bitsavers loks the way I remember it, the 'neutral gray' part just a white colour in shadow. From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jun 21 09:00:47 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 07:00:47 -0700 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6928B07E-9DB0-4182-BB36-76E88B0007A1@avanthar.com> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > >> On 21/06/2021 07:51, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that it?s white. Though I can?t get to mine right now. >> >> Zane >> >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >>> On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:50 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it >>> looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I have >>> asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has it >>> looking neutral grey: >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg >>> >>> And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. >>> >>> I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. > > > I can't get t mine either but I think they were originally light cream, but not bright white. > > I suspect that most photos have it as yellowish because that's what they are now :-) > > The black bits I remember as black. > > > I remember the tube colour being green, I think I remember seeing amber and I believe that white was an available option. I?m pretty sure that the black is black. I am not sure, but I want to say that the tubes in mine are B&W, not green or amber. I think that I had 3 and I think that I still have 2, I?m sure that I still have one with a Q-Bus card cage. Zane From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 09:06:59 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:06:59 +0100 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On 21 Jun 2021, at 14:48, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 21/06/2021 07:51, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that it?s white. Though I can?t get to mine right now. >> >> Zane >> >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >>> On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:50 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it >>> looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I have >>> asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has it >>> looking neutral grey: >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg >>> >>> And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. >>> >>> I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. > > > I can't get t mine either but I think they were originally light cream, but not bright white. > > I suspect that most photos have it as yellowish because that's what they are now :-) > > The black bits I remember as black. > > > I remember the tube colour being green, I think I remember seeing amber and I believe that white was an available option. All my VTs are coloured how I remember them - light cream with black inserts. It wouldn?t surprise me if they were produced in slightly different colours back then, but my DECbox (VT100 with embedded Beaglebone) behind me is how I remember them. I have a pic of me in front of it back in (I think) 1985 so I?ll dig that out. I don?t remember the screens being green though, my first encounter with green screens was VT220s and all my VT1xx?s are white. This could just have been our corner of the UK though. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 09:30:02 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:30:02 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:23 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I want to transformatiom before full parsing expressions, as a text process. > string "a+(b+c)*c" becomes "((b+c)*c)a+". As an academic exercise that's pretty trivial. But why would you want to do that? Apparently some people think that this is how you create expression parsers, but that isn't actually a useful or necessary approach. It's entirely trivial to do a sequential scan over the expression tokens and produce corresponding code, in one pass without backtracking or text manipulation. BTW, on code generation: it's true that this is complex, and a still evolving field, if you consider optimization. But a straightforward code generator fed by the parse tree isn't very hard, and requires no great magic. I still have the one I wrote in compiler class back in 1976; it took a week of work and that included learning Pascal and linked lists. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 09:33:41 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:33:41 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <01b201d7667c$515c4ba0$f414e2e0$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> <01b201d7667c$515c4ba0$f414e2e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B57D7B7-6FDF-4EED-ADD6-4AB2AB4AE010@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:03 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > Well, utility depends on the objective. One that immediately springs to mind in an era when "computing" had a dearth of practitioners would be to inform various audiences "what is involved". > > The Dekker (1957) reference seems to be targeted at an audience interested in expressing mathematical statements in terms of the von Neumann model, generally building up to the idea of algorithms and their general reduction to a sequence of computational steps in that model of computation. This would be a pre-ALGOL 58 world and one can see the paper as a motivation for an ALGOL- (or FORTRAN-) like language. (Caveat: I've just skimmed a poor translation; more careful study required!) > > The McCracken (1957) book seems to be targeted at an audience of future practitioners, giving a feel for how a hypothetical instruction set would be employed "in daily practice" to solve problems. Perhaps answering the question of "would I like to become [or could I handle becoming] a 'programmer' " in an era when that was about to become a new specialty and career path. > > A numerical analyst (e.g.) might find the Dekker text more accessible; an engineer might find the McCracken book more to their liking. Given the MC's mission that fits. In their early days they did computation (numerical methods) on a contract basis for customers. At first this involved one set of people to design the algorithms, and another set of people (called "computers", or if you wants to capture the essence of the Dutch word, "computresses") to execute them on mechanical desk calculating machines. Around 1948 they started an effort to create a computer, in the modern sense of the word, to automate that manual labor. But all along, numerical methods was a particular focus. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 09:33:41 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:33:41 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <01b201d7667c$515c4ba0$f414e2e0$@gmail.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> <01b201d7667c$515c4ba0$f414e2e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B57D7B7-6FDF-4EED-ADD6-4AB2AB4AE010@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:03 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > Well, utility depends on the objective. One that immediately springs to mind in an era when "computing" had a dearth of practitioners would be to inform various audiences "what is involved". > > The Dekker (1957) reference seems to be targeted at an audience interested in expressing mathematical statements in terms of the von Neumann model, generally building up to the idea of algorithms and their general reduction to a sequence of computational steps in that model of computation. This would be a pre-ALGOL 58 world and one can see the paper as a motivation for an ALGOL- (or FORTRAN-) like language. (Caveat: I've just skimmed a poor translation; more careful study required!) > > The McCracken (1957) book seems to be targeted at an audience of future practitioners, giving a feel for how a hypothetical instruction set would be employed "in daily practice" to solve problems. Perhaps answering the question of "would I like to become [or could I handle becoming] a 'programmer' " in an era when that was about to become a new specialty and career path. > > A numerical analyst (e.g.) might find the Dekker text more accessible; an engineer might find the McCracken book more to their liking. Given the MC's mission that fits. In their early days they did computation (numerical methods) on a contract basis for customers. At first this involved one set of people to design the algorithms, and another set of people (called "computers", or if you wants to capture the essence of the Dutch word, "computresses") to execute them on mechanical desk calculating machines. Around 1948 they started an effort to create a computer, in the modern sense of the word, to automate that manual labor. But all along, numerical methods was a particular focus. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 09:39:20 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:39:20 -0400 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 9:48 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I can't get t mine either but I think they were originally light cream, but not bright white. That sounds right. > ... > I remember the tube colour being green, I think I remember seeing amber and I believe that white was an available option. You're thinking of the VT200, which came in three colors, although at DEC fortunately they never inflicted green on us :-). But all the earlier DEC video terminals (VT05, VT50/52/61t/62, VT20, VT71) were white. The only exception I can think of is the GT40, probably because that one benefits from having fairly long persistence which was available in green phosphor but not in white. paul From bmr at ringman.ch Mon Jun 21 09:08:51 2021 From: bmr at ringman.ch (Magnus Ringman) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:08:51 +0200 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <6928B07E-9DB0-4182-BB36-76E88B0007A1@avanthar.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <6928B07E-9DB0-4182-BB36-76E88B0007A1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: A guess, but a confident one: the white part of the VT100 casing would originally have been the same white as the VAX11 metal cabinets were painted in. Look at promotional brochures from the era that include a VAX and a terminal. The color might well be a FED-STD-595 one, and/or a very similar Pantone one. On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 4:00 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 21/06/2021 07:51, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> I want to say that it?s white. Though I can?t get to mine right now. > >> > >> Zane > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPod > >> > >>> On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:50 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it > >>> looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I have > >>> asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has it > >>> looking neutral grey: > >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg > >>> > >>> And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. > >>> > >>> I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. > > > > > > I can't get t mine either but I think they were originally light cream, > but not bright white. > > > > I suspect that most photos have it as yellowish because that's what they > are now :-) > > > > The black bits I remember as black. > > > > > > I remember the tube colour being green, I think I remember seeing amber > and I believe that white was an available option. > > > I?m pretty sure that the black is black. I am not sure, but I want to say > that the tubes in mine are B&W, not green or amber. I think that I had 3 > and I think that I still have 2, I?m sure that I still have one with a > Q-Bus card cage. > > Zane > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 09:43:42 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:43:42 -0400 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <6928B07E-9DB0-4182-BB36-76E88B0007A1@avanthar.com> Message-ID: It's the same white as the pdp 8a, or rl02 new. On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 10:42 AM Magnus Ringman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > A guess, but a confident one: the white part of the VT100 casing would > originally have been the same white as the VAX11 metal cabinets were > painted in. > Look at promotional brochures from the era that include a VAX and a > terminal. > The color might well be a FED-STD-595 one, and/or a very similar Pantone > one. > > On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 4:00 PM Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> On 21/06/2021 07:51, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> I want to say that it?s white. Though I can?t get to mine right now. > > >> > > >> Zane > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPod > > >> > > >>> On Jun 20, 2021, at 10:50 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hello, > > >>> > > >>> Does anyone know what colors a VT100 is? Most photos online has it > > >>> looking yellowish, but I expect that's from aging. Some people I > have > > >>> asked claim it was a light cream color. This bitsavers picture has > it > > >>> looking neutral grey: > > >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/vt100_wps-8.jpg > > >>> > > >>> And the black parts are claimed to be dark brown. > > >>> > > >>> I haven't found any color codes in the manuals. > > > > > > > > > I can't get t mine either but I think they were originally light cream, > > but not bright white. > > > > > > I suspect that most photos have it as yellowish because that's what > they > > are now :-) > > > > > > The black bits I remember as black. > > > > > > > > > I remember the tube colour being green, I think I remember seeing amber > > and I believe that white was an available option. > > > > > > I?m pretty sure that the black is black. I am not sure, but I want to > say > > that the tubes in mine are B&W, not green or amber. I think that I had 3 > > and I think that I still have 2, I?m sure that I still have one with a > > Q-Bus card cage. > > > > Zane > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 09:44:25 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:44:25 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <4B57D7B7-6FDF-4EED-ADD6-4AB2AB4AE010@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <038701d765e3$a1643700$e42ca500$@gmail.com> <005d01d765ea$c1087ab0$43197010$@gmail.com> <0bdcad78-e075-c4f1-fd73-7cddf94b08ae@sydex.com> <01b201d7667c$515c4ba0$f414e2e0$@gmail.com> <4B57D7B7-6FDF-4EED-ADD6-4AB2AB4AE010@comcast.net> Message-ID: Since the question was asked "where do I find those CWI (MC) reports?"... CWI has a document search, but they don't make it easy to find. Here it is: https://ir.cwi.nl -- I haven't explored all the things it can look for, but it definitely can find documents by words of the title, or by author name. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 10:26:22 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 08:26:22 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 6/21/21 1:39 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > I have 'borrowed' copy of the Green dragon book. > The book promotes code generation for a multi register machine. PDP 11, > PDP 10, IBM 360. "(C) Bell Labs 1979 " I think is big hint here. > > The machine model I am looking at is a single accumulator design like > the 6800 or the IBM 1130. A AC,PC,Index and stack. No push or pop, > subroutine call returns the old pc in the AC. What is a register, but a memory location with a special name? I'm assuming that your model does have memory. Again, look to the older systems, such as the much-maligned (by Dijkstra) 1620. You have *no* user-addressable registers--it's all memory-to-memory. In lieu of a stack, you need temporaries in which to stash intermediate results. (The IBM 360 has no stack.) One of the restrictions of non-recursive functions in FORTRAN was because the idea of a machine-implemented stack was relatively uncommon--the Burroughs B5000 (1961) was an outlier in general systems architecture at the time. Thinking about registers, I recall that the initial versions of the STAR-100 mapped the register file (256x64 bits) into the user's low memory, so you could have both vectors and scalars as register-resident. It turned out later to play hob with the scheduling hardware, so the capability was disabled. > Is Fortran the newer version of FORTRAN ( I II IV )? My recollection from X3J3 is that "Fortran" was officially endorsed with F90. F77 still has FORTRAN officially. > There is very little to to bootstrap with today, that uses a small > amount of memory.I need a cross compiler for my machine like K&R C > style compiler ,not the latest C+-#@? compiler. > I have no problem with a recursive decent compiler,I just have subtract > divide and mod reversed in places, something I want to avoid as well a > DISPLAY's like in Algol or Pascal. For heaven's sake, all you need is a decent assembler--even a cross-assembler. Writing compilers in a HLL is a recent (post 1970) thing. Macros help to encapsulate things, but they're not an absolute necessity. We used PL/M to provide a macro facility that ISIS ASM80 lacked because it was there and convenient. > The machine works on FPGA delopment card, see the bliking lights on the > kitchen table. No hypothetical here. > > 1) Computer???? Check > 2) Front panel? Check > 3) Bootstrap? loader Check > 4) Software???? No Check > Stage 4 is the problem. Sigh. It's a shame that absolute (machine language) coding isn't taught anymore. The 1620 (and probably other IBM hardware) even had coding forms for it--pencil-and-paper assembly coding. My recollection is that the absolute forms were on the reverse side of the SPS coding form. If you don't have another system to provide cross compilation/assembly, you bootstrap from machine code. There are two things that can etch instruction codes (not symbolic aliases) into one's memory, more or less permanently. One is absolute machine-language coding; the other is analyzing postmortem memory dumps, day after day. --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jun 21 10:40:56 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:40:56 -0400 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I recall the color was "Putty". Best way to find out is open one and see what the plastic looks like on the inside. All VT100's I used had the same while phosphor color as the VT52. Now for real fun, what was the original color of a VT52? Chris From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 11:10:34 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:10:34 +0100 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <937e490b-0673-e8a9-6437-3fe864591f12@ntlworld.com> On 21/06/2021 15:39, Paul Koning wrote: > > You're thinking of the VT200, which came in three colors, although at DEC fortunately they never inflicted green on us :-). But all the earlier DEC video terminals (VT05, VT50/52/61t/62, VT20, VT71) were white. The only exception I can think of is the GT40, probably because that one benefits from having fairly long persistence which was available in green phosphor but not in white. The User Guide doesn't say and I don't have an IPB I can find. I do remember the VT100s in the computer room at Uni being green and the VT52 clones (Dataram?) being white. But that's a while ago so maybe my wetware is wrong. If and when I can get to where I think my VT100 is I can look at powering it up. Powering it up may take much longer than getting to it though :-) My VT220 is (or was, it's been a while ...) green phosphor and my VT420 is amber ... I like both. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 12:12:35 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:12:35 +0100 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <937e490b-0673-e8a9-6437-3fe864591f12@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> <937e490b-0673-e8a9-6437-3fe864591f12@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> On 21/06/2021 17:10, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 21/06/2021 15:39, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> You're thinking of the VT200, which came in three colors, although at >> DEC fortunately they never inflicted green on us :-).? But all the >> earlier DEC video terminals (VT05, VT50/52/61t/62, VT20, VT71) were >> white.? The only exception I can think of is the GT40, probably >> because that one benefits from having fairly long persistence which >> was available in green phosphor but not in white. > > > The User Guide doesn't say and I don't have an IPB I can find. I do > remember the VT100s in the computer room at Uni being green and the > VT52 clones (Dataram?) being white. But that's a while ago so maybe my > wetware is wrong. If and when I can get to where I think my VT100 is I > can look at powering it up. Powering it up may take much longer than > getting to it though :-) > > > My VT220 is (or was, it's been a while ...) green phosphor and my > VT420 is amber ... I like both. > > I found the IPB on bitsavers and that lists the P4 phosphor and a later CRT with the P40 phosphor. I think both of those are white. I did find one seemingly untouched image of a VT100 with green text: https://vistapointe.net/cliparts/getsecond. That does appear to be a VT100 (not a VT102/VT103 etc) and is green. I did find many more white phosphor pictures than green (and no amber at all). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From lars at nocrew.org Mon Jun 21 12:25:51 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:25:51 +0000 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <4AD2EE5D-F9DC-4D94-9185-94CDADA95F87@bsdimp.com> (Warner Losh's message of "Mon, 21 Jun 2021 08:01:51 -0600") References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4AD2EE5D-F9DC-4D94-9185-94CDADA95F87@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <7w8s33p1sw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Many replies. Thank you all! I have 3D printed Michael Gardi's VT100 model, and I'll try to find some pleasing colors for painting it. https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 12:40:09 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:40:09 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5bf318a366ddc67481179438d5b68e202a0614a1.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 02:39 -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > Is Fortran the newer version of FORTRAN ( I II IV )? The "newer" version of Fortran is Fortran 2018. The working draft for the next standard is https://j3-fortran.org/doc/year/21/21-007.pdf. ISO Standard versions: ISO R 1539-1972 FORTRAN 66 Fortran IV, ANSI X3.9-1966ISO 1539-1980 FORTRAN 77 ANSI X3.9-1978ISO/IEC 1539- 1:1991 Fortran 90ISO/IEC 1539-1:1997 Fortran 95ISO/IEC 1530-1:2004 Fortran 2003ISO/IEC 1539-1:2010 Fortran 2008ISO/IEC 1539-1:2018 Fortran 2018 Fortran 66 was the first language standard published by ANSI. At that time, it was by far the longest standard -- 39 pages -- that ANSI had published. The longest previous standard was a two-page standard for screw threads. The difference between the "year number" such as "90" in the informal name, and the ISO publication date, was because the Fortran committees' preference had been to denote the version of the standard by the year that technical content was frozen. Technical content for Fortran 2018 was frozen in 2015, but a policy change was voted to denote that standard, and future ones, by the year ISO got around to issuing a publication. Although the technical content of the next standard was frozen in February 2021, it will probably be published in 2023. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 12:46:11 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:46:11 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <89b69aebf4667fa0e854b08836d9e337a718b6fb.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 08:26 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Sigh. It's a shame that absolute (machine language) coding isn't taught > anymore. The 1620 (and probably other IBM hardware) even had coding > forms for it--pencil-and-paper assembly coding. My recollection is > that the absolute forms were on the reverse side of the SPS coding form. > If you don't have another system to provide cross compilation/assembly, > you bootstrap from machine code. IBM provided coding forms for the 1401, for both SPS and Autocoder. They provided a "pocket reference card" for absolute machine code. The machine had two one-character data registers that connected the CPU to core, and two address registers. Three index registers were in core. Univac provided a pocket reference card for the 1108, but didn't bother with coding forms because assembler input was free form. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Jun 21 12:46:33 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:46:33 -0700 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> <937e490b-0673-e8a9-6437-3fe864591f12@ntlworld.com> <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <347D0BBA-00AB-4BF9-B81A-885C55661004@shaw.ca> This is funny, as everyone (me too) weighs in with their description of the elephant. My recollection (also from recent observation of a VT278): - case main: very light cream, somehow with a touch of grey, but not pure white - case insets: very dark brown Remember, it was the 70s! Earth tones. Black wasn't yet a thing. - CRT: white phosphor I never saw a VT1xx style in anything other than white phosphor. On 2021-Jun-21, at 10:12 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I did find one seemingly untouched image of a VT100 with green text: https://vistapointe.net/cliparts/getsecond. That does appear to be a VT100 (not a VT102/VT103 etc) and is green. That link didn't work for me, but poking around on the same site: https://vistapointe.net/vt100.html Yes, some very novel images of a VT100 with green phosphor. But really, I'd bet *very* strongly that somebody swapped the CRT to get that. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 12:53:44 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:53:44 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> Message-ID: <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 06:02 -0700, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > That 1620 would have been a fantastic addition to their running > display. Much easier to work on than what it sounds like the 1401 is. > And with a duplicate backup. CHM has a 1620 that was running for a while. IIRC, somebody told me that the reason it stopped running was a damaged fan in the core memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. They didn't get a 1622, so they built a PC interface that made the appropriate noises when cards were being "read" and "punched". I don't know whether their PDP-1 still works. Several years ago, they let me play "Space War" for a few minutes. Watching it load from a stack of fan-folded paper tape was half the fun. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 12:55:44 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:55:44 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 1:53 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 06:02 -0700, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> That 1620 would have been a fantastic addition to their running >> display. Much easier to work on than what it sounds like the 1401 is. >> And with a duplicate backup. > > CHM has a 1620 that was running for a while. IIRC, somebody told me > that the reason it stopped running was a damaged fan in the core > memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature. In the case of the 1620, there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power before the machine will run. Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no longer adequate. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 13:43:10 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:43:10 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> Message-ID: <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. > > Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature. In the case of the 1620, there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power before the machine will run. > > Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no longer adequate. For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess that never happened. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 13:50:40 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:50:40 +0100 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> Message-ID: <09d001d766ce$558ed880$00ac8980$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 21 June 2021 19:43 > To: Paul Koning via cctalk > Subject: Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books > > On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. > > > > Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature. In the case of the 1620, > there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating > temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power > before the machine will run. > > > > Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no > longer adequate. > > For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project > at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess > that never happened. > > --Chuck > I believe that CHM had several issues with its 1620. There was also a project to produce a new console.... https://hackaday.com/tag/ibm-1620/ Dave From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 13:53:19 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:53:19 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 21, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> > memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. >> >> Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature. In the case of the 1620, there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power before the machine will run. >> >> Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no longer adequate. > > For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project > at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess > that never happened. > > --Chuck Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? That got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to produce signals of that form. paul From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jun 21 14:16:01 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:16:01 -0400 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> <937e490b-0673-e8a9-6437-3fe864591f12@ntlworld.com> <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0165b1c3-228b-65b9-304d-bf3cae9ab792@e-bbes.com> On 2021-06-21 13:12, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I did find one seemingly untouched image of a VT100 with green text: > https://vistapointe.net/cliparts/getsecond. That does appear to be a > VT100 (not a VT102/VT103 etc) and is green. We had some like that, but upgraded with a Selenar (?) board and different tube, to have tektronix emulation as an option. And looking at the picture it seems to be a darker green, which make me believe it was a P39 phosphor like ours ... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 14:52:36 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 12:52:36 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> Message-ID: <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? That got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to produce signals of that form. No, it was definitely a CHM project--could have been for the 1401, though. In way of comparison to the 6000 core, 1401 and 1620 memory is much larger, less dense and slower--and I don't believe that the machine architecture makes use of a read-modify-write that the 6000 so neatly exploited. >From whence did the LCM 6500 come? --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 15:02:20 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:02:20 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? That got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to produce signals of that form. > > No, it was definitely a CHM project--could have been for the 1401, > though. In way of comparison to the 6000 core, 1401 and 1620 memory > is much larger, less dense and slower--and I don't believe that the > machine architecture makes use of a read-modify-write that the 6000 so > neatly exploited. > > From whence did the LCM 6500 come? > > --Chuck Some vague memory says Purdue. LCM actually got it running, which was an interesting problem. It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring the cooling system. That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff. I think the machine is pretty much original except that a few core stacks were busted so they were replaced by RAM based emulations. And it may be that the original console display wasn't used because of worries of breaking it -- the design of that machine wasn't very good and it apparently has reliability issues. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jun 21 15:11:59 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:11:59 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <195cc39f-e1fe-1154-e16e-6159904ac103@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 6/21/21 1:07 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I'm not the OP, but I'm interested in fiddling with ReGIS a little. > I just pulled out my VS240 and fired it up. Right now, I have a > VR201 on it, but I also have a VR241 for it as well. Nice. Let me know if you would like some sample ReGIS files. I have a few of them at hand. I even managed to create one by hand with little effort. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 15:13:48 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:13:48 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:26 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/21/21 1:39 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> I have 'borrowed' copy of the Green dragon book. >> The book promotes code generation for a multi register machine. PDP 11, >> PDP 10, IBM 360. "(C) Bell Labs 1979 " I think is big hint here. >> >> The machine model I am looking at is a single accumulator design like >> the 6800 or the IBM 1130. A AC,PC,Index and stack. No push or pop, >> subroutine call returns the old pc in the AC. > > What is a register, but a memory location with a special name? I'm > assuming that your model does have memory. Again, look to the older > systems, such as the much-maligned (by Dijkstra) 1620. You have *no* > user-addressable registers--it's all memory-to-memory. In lieu of a > stack, you need temporaries in which to stash intermediate results. > (The IBM 360 has no stack.) The reason Dijkstra maligned the 1620 is not because of its lack of registers but because of its lack of interrupts and inability to save the full execution state. It's not so much that registers have special names but that they have a distinct place in the instruction set. It may be explicit, as in current machines, or implicit in some older machines that only have one "accumulator", like the ARRA or the CDC 6000 series PPUs or the PDP-8. The registers may actually be implemented as memory (PDP-6 and PDP-10 without the "fast registers" feature), and perhaps the Philips PR8000 which had 8 sets of 8 registers, one per interrupt level. Independently, registers may appear in the memory address space, as in the PDP-10 or the Electrologica X8. > One of the restrictions of non-recursive functions in FORTRAN was > because the idea of a machine-implemented stack was relatively > uncommon--the Burroughs B5000 (1961) was an outlier in general systems > architecture at the time. The X8 also has a stack, not surprising given that Dijkstra was heavily involved in its design. That machines came out in 1964 I think. >> ... > For heaven's sake, all you need is a decent assembler--even a > cross-assembler. Writing compilers in a HLL is a recent (post 1970) > thing. More or less, except for the Burroughs mainframes where everything was done in ALGOL or a dialect -- such as ESPOL which was the variant used for writing the kernel. It apparently didn't have an assembler; the little bit of machine code it needed to get the OS started was as I understand it written in hex (or octal?) machine code. Some early assemblers are only barely an assembler; consider the Electrologica X1; its assembler takes only a few hundred words, in ROM. But it has only a rudimentary symbol table and equally rudimentary opcodes; they don't quite rate the usual tag "mnemonic"... paul From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 16:07:16 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:07:16 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <742be64fe0acde59e4e648ee97499735f888ce71.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 16:13 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The registers may actually be implemented as memory (PDP-6 and PDP-10 > without the "fast registers" feature), and perhaps the Philips PR8000 > which had 8 sets of 8 registers, one per interrupt level. > Independently, registers may appear in the memory address space, as > in the PDP-10 or the Electrologica X8. Univac 1108 had two sets of registers, selected by a bit in the Processor Status Word. The "interrupt" set was automatically selected when an interrupt occurred, so interrupt-service code didn't need to save registers. They were made from thin-film magnetic memory, not semiconductors. They occupied "core" locations starting at zero. There was "core" behind them that could be accessed by setting the indirect- address bit in the instruction word -- which actually did indirect addressing if the address wasn't in the register file. In each set, there were 16 index (X) registers, although X0 always contained zero, 16 accumulator (A) registers, and 16 general-purpose (R) registers. R0 was the real-time clock. R1 was for block instructions. R2 was for mask instructions. X12-X15 and A0-A3 were actually the same overlapping registers so you could do "accumulator stuff" to calculate index registers, and then not need to move the result. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 16:12:03 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:12:03 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0d6f9344-f49f-a6b7-3687-4a91ee66e01e@sydex.com> On 6/21/21 1:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Some vague memory says Purdue. LCM actually got it running, which was an interesting problem. It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring the cooling system. That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff. If that was the system in the basement of the Math building, I remember it well. When I used it, it was running an enhanced version of MACE; Greg Mansfield's and Dave Callender's predecessor to Kronos. Differed from SCOPE in that much more of the system was CM-resident. There were other significant internal differences as well from SCOPE. Did I ever mention that I was the one who introduced Greg to the wonders of gelato? I know that Greg left CDC to work for Cray; but I lost track of him sometime in the late 1980s. I can well imagine that it was a struggle to get the system out of the Purdue location. What with the 7090s and the 1401, it was pretty crowded. Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal properties than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 16:26:51 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:26:51 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <0d6f9344-f49f-a6b7-3687-4a91ee66e01e@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> <0d6f9344-f49f-a6b7-3687-4a91ee66e01e@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with > purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal properties > than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500. When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain. This unlike the IBM water machines. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 16:47:00 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> Is Fortran the newer version of FORTRAN ( I II IV )? On Mon, 21 Jun 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > My recollection from X3J3 is that "Fortran" was officially endorsed with > F90. F77 still has FORTRAN officially. After "FORTRAN 77", but before "Fortran 90", "Fortran 8X" (DOD extensions standardized, etc.) The FORTRAN that I used on the 1620 (1967-1969 at Merritt College (home of the Black Panthers) in Oakland) was a possibly local variant called "PDQ FORTRAN" ("Pretty Damn Quick"?) In 1983, I got hired to teach FORTRAN and Microcomputer Operating Systems at Merritt, which was now up on the hill, out of reach of the flatlands Oakland politics. The existing teacher had walked out, and I was hired as a long-term substitute hours before the class met. I continued running a software business, in addition to "full-time" teaching. They had had a DEC machine whose drive had never been reliable. Then they sold that to Richmond public school district and bought a roomfulo of 5150s. I taught using IBM PC FORTRAN, which was just fine for teaching, but extraordinarily slow (Sieve of Erastothanes benchmark was slower than interpreted BASIC). When Richmond installed it, PG&E got it wrong about Delta VS WYE three phase power! But, in exchange for everybody publicly saying that it had been a "lightning strike" that did it in, PG&E bought Richmond Schools a replacement machine, and the drive reliability problems were finally solved. I stayed in the Peralta Community College District, that Merritt was part of, for more than 30 years, and retired with a decent stable state administerd pension and very good unstable college administered health benefits. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cc at alderson.users.panix.com Mon Jun 21 16:47:35 2021 From: cc at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: (message from ben via cctalk on Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:19:02 -0600) References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> > Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:19:02 -0600 > From: ben via cctalk > LISP still can't be compiled. May I respectfully suggest that you don't know WTF you're talking about? LISP compilers have existed for decades. One of the *early* MIT AI Lab papers by Guy Steele is a comparison of the compiler for MACLISP (the Project MAC dialect of Lisp, nothing to do with Apple computers) with the then current FORTRAN compiler for the PDP-10 (called "F40"), in which the LISP compiler generated better code than the FORTRAN compiler. Things have not degenerated since then. Rich From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Jun 21 16:54:36 2021 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:54:36 -0500 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: <7C0EEA88-9064-4C64-B8DE-72A3BB3E5134@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:19:02 -0600 >> From: ben via cctalk > >> LISP still can't be compiled. > > May I respectfully suggest that you don't know WTF you're talking about? I?ll save you some time and trouble, because I?d learned to stop arguing with people who hold this opinion: ?WELL ACKSHUALLY? (push glasses up) ?THE LISP MACHINES WERE MICROCODED WHICH MEANS THERE IS NO REAL LISP MACHINE, THE UNDERLYING MICROENGINE IS THE REAL PROCESSOR, AND IT DOES NOT RUN LISP, SO LISP MACHINES DID NOT EXIST.? They then move the goalposts around regarding what is considered a REAL PROCESSOR and what is not until you give up and they ?win? by default. I will now go back to refusing to talk about or work on lisp projects anymore because The Community has beaten any will to do so out of me. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 17:03:52 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:03:52 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/21/21 1:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > The reason Dijkstra maligned the 1620 is not because of its lack of registers but because of its lack of interrupts and inability to save the full execution state. Somewhere I've got the Dijkstra paper. The 1710 version of the 1620 did have interrupts and some later versions even had binary math (options). One of the big issues of the original Model 1(Cadet) and the Model II was that there were digits with special properties, such as numeric blank and record mark that had no instructions to test for their presence--and any attempt to do math (or comparison) with them would result in an error stop. Even their definition was a bit fuzzy. Anything that had the 8 and 4 bits set, but not the 2--84 and 841--was a numeric blank. Same for record and group marks. Rather than multipunch record marks on my object decks, I used a period, which read in as 821, but functioned as a record mark. Basically, you read the special digits in and kept track of where they were. You could save enough of the execution state via the Dump Numeric opcode to see what was going on, but there was no corresponding Read Numeric opcode to read to the end of core. That was a fault of the I/O implementation, not the basic system architecture. But then Dijkstra should talk--how about the wonderful I/O capabilities of the first version of Pascal? > It's not so much that registers have special names but that they have a distinct place in the instruction set. It may be explicit, as in current machines, or implicit in some older machines that only have one "accumulator", like the ARRA or the CDC 6000 series PPUs or the PDP-8. No, my point was that they're memory, however they're addressed (i.e. how they're called). In fact, if one looks at the lower level PIC microcontrollers, read/write memory *is* the register set (Harvard architecture; program memory is execute-only). A hardware "stack" is a convenient way of auto-addressing memory. > More or less, except for the Burroughs mainframes where everything was done in ALGOL or a dialect -- such as ESPOL which was the variant used for writing the kernel. It apparently didn't have an assembler; the little bit of machine code it needed to get the OS started was as I understand it written in hex (or octal?) machine code. Again, the Burroughs architecture was an outlier from the general machine population. > Some early assemblers are only barely an assembler; consider the Electrologica X1; its assembler takes only a few hundred words, in ROM. But it has only a rudimentary symbol table and equally rudimentary opcodes; they don't quite rate the usual tag "mnemonic"... IBM 650 SAP at least had mnemonics. The 1401 opcodes at least hinted at their function. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 17:06:44 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:06:44 -0400 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> <0d6f9344-f49f-a6b7-3687-4a91ee66e01e@sydex.com> Message-ID: > When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he > remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s > were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. So I just reread what I wrote, and see it is crap. What I meant is that CDC machines going back all the way to the 6000s and 7000s, and UP TO the 800s, were unpicky. Basically, most of the line. Me not poet. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 17:15:43 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:15:43 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <85ffd8b2-18d9-680c-c1f8-6e5b93e22e53@sydex.com> On 6/21/21 2:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Is Fortran the newer version of FORTRAN ( I II IV )? > > On Mon, 21 Jun 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> My recollection from X3J3 is that "Fortran" was officially endorsed with >> F90.? F77 still has FORTRAN officially. > > After "FORTRAN 77", but before "Fortran 90", "Fortran 8X" > (DOD extensions standardized, etc.) As far as I can recall, Fortran 8x was the draft standard from X3J3. It was never, IIRC, formally certified as final. When the successor of F77 was plotted by X3J3, the target was supposed to be F88. Due to some epic squabbling in committee and unfavorable reaction to the 8x draft standard, the eventual finalized version turned out to be F90. (For a brief time, I served as an alternate to our official member of X3J3). IBM threw a fit because X3J3 wasn't swallowing IBM's Vectran extensions wholesale. DEC had similar gripes (they wanted it to look more like F77) and both threatened to pull out of X3J3. Jeanne Adams found herself trying to hold the whole affair together; it was pretty ugly by all reports. So yes, from the 8x draft, "Fortran" was part of the verbiage. More war stories... --Chuck From cc at alderson.users.panix.com Mon Jun 21 17:38:34 2021 From: cc at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> (message from Paul Koning via cctalk on Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:02:20 -0400) References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4G84F64x3NzfYm@panix5.panix.com> > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:02:20 -0400 > From: Paul Koning via cctalk >> On Jun 21, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? >>> That got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because >>> the read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog >>> signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to >>> produce signals of that form. >> From whence did the LCM 6500 come? > Some vague memory says Purdue. LCM actually got it running, which was an > interesting problem. It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since > the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring > the cooling system. That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, > which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have > to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a > graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff. > I think the machine is pretty much original except that a few core stacks > were busted so they were replaced by RAM based emulations. And it may be > that the original console display wasn't used because of worries of breaking > it -- the design of that machine wasn't very good and it apparently has > reliability issues. As I was the original negotiator for the acquisition of the 6500 for LCM (not yet LCM+L :-), allow me to chime in. Paul Allen alerted me to the existence of a "surplus" CDC 6500 at the Chippewa Falls Museum of Industry and Technology in early 2011. (PGA was always on the lookout for interesting systems, especially those with which he had a personal connection.) I spoke to several people at CFMIT, their BoD discussed the possibility, and came back with a "No, thank you." In early 2012, a management team was hired for the museum as we ramped up to opening, consisting of an Engineering Manager and a Business Manager. The latter gentleman was an old friend of PGA and WHG, having been their boss when they were PDP-10 programmers for the Bonneville Power RODS project; he also negotiated the purchase of the Portland Trailblazers basketball team by PGA, and a number of other deals along the way. He picked up the 6500 acquisition, convinced the BoD at CFMIT to sell PGA the system, and it came to pass. We learned when it was delivered that the machine had been at Purdue for its 22 years of active service, from 1967 to 1989, and was purchased back by CDC to donation to CFMIT, part of whose mission was to have at least one of every machine designed by hometown boy Seymour Cray. The CDC FEs used a Sawzall vel sim. to remove all the interchassis cabling, since "no one will ever want to run this thing again". The Engineering Manager, who in previous life wrote the microcode for the XKL Toad-1 System's XKL-1 CPU, hired a new Principal Engineer, Bruce Sherry, to run the restoration of the 6500. (Bruce designed the XNI-1 Ethernet board for the Toad-1, then went off to Strobe Data to do designs like their Nova and PDP-11 clones. He also designed the 2nd generation Massbus Disk Emulator at LCM.) Bruce found that the company which originally built the cables still had the Cray design files, so they could recreate them; the pins were silver rather than gold or tin, so he had to buy a brick of silver bullion for the company which made the pins (need: c. 10,000, minimum order: 50,000). Bruce brought in a wonder worker from Strobe, the late David Cameron, to do the wiring; between 2012 and 2020, when we closed down, we found *3* miswirings out of that 10,000 or so. Because of Cray's physical design for the memory, Bruce had to spec out a plexiglass box into which he inserted a small memory card, in order to keep the proper airflow characteristics in the memory bays. Bruce's business card at LCM listed his title as "Technomancer". Rich From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 18:00:11 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:00:11 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> <0d6f9344-f49f-a6b7-3687-4a91ee66e01e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 17:26 -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with > > purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal properties > > than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500. > > When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he > remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s > were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a > garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the > machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it > just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain. > > This unlike the IBM water machines. I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics shop was the plumber. > > -- > Will From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 18:02:38 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:02:38 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 17:47 -0400, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > > Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:19:02 -0600From: ben via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > LISP still can't be compiled. > > May I respectfully suggest that you don't know WTF you're talking > about? > LISP compilers have existed for decades. One of the *early* MIT AI > Lab papersby Guy Steele is a comparison of the compiler for MACLISP > (the Project MACdialect of Lisp, nothing to do with Apple computers) > with the then currentFORTRAN compiler for the PDP-10 (called "F40"), > in which the LISP compilergenerated better code than the FORTRAN > compiler. > Things have not degenerated since then. Dave Card took Cray's eight favorite Fortran benchmarks and re-wrote them in SISAL. They all ran faster. > Rich From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 18:04:37 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:04:37 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 15:03 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > But then Dijkstra > should talk--how about the wonderful I/O capabilities of the first > version of Pascal? Pascal was developed by one of Niklaus Wirth's students. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 18:27:58 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:27:58 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/21/21 4:04 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 15:03 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> But then Dijkstra >> should talk--how about the wonderful I/O capabilities of the first >> version of Pascal? > > Pascal was developed by one of Niklaus Wirth's students. I stand corrected--and I should be ashamed, particularly since I rescued a version of the Wirth Pascal for the CDC 6000. Still have it around here somewhere. Sometimes the wetware throws a parity error. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jun 21 18:53:54 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:53:54 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> <96f5eb4f-ff09-1636-5b3b-c0ef8291661d@sydex.com> <682CAC36-21A3-4643-AFF4-B01A1E6A8FB6@comcast.net> <0d6f9344-f49f-a6b7-3687-4a91ee66e01e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7ae959ef-1dcf-557b-aba5-afe8e2b6e2c1@jwsss.com> On 6/21/2021 4:00 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics > shop was the plumber. No water cooling. From gavin at learn.bio Mon Jun 21 18:55:09 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:55:09 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:43 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project > at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess > that never happened. Oh yeah, that was like 12 years ago? I believe they had gotten the 1620 CADET (?Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try?) running, but there was something original they didn't have working (could have been the core) that they had implemented in a little semiconductor board stuck in it. IIRC the system was in operating condition at the time. But I had forgotten I ever knew this until you mentioned it. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 18:56:29 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:56:29 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 21, 2021, at 6:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6/21/21 1:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> The reason Dijkstra maligned the 1620 is not because of its lack of registers but because of its lack of interrupts and inability to save the full execution state. > > Somewhere I've got the Dijkstra paper. The 1710 version of the 1620 did > have interrupts and some later versions even had binary math (options). That may have been after the time when he did the evaluation (early 1960s). The paper in in the EWD collection, I don't have the number handy. > One of the big issues of the original Model 1(Cadet) and the Model II > was that there were digits with special properties, such as numeric > blank and record mark that had no instructions to test for their > presence--and any attempt to do math (or comparison) with them would > result in an error stop. Even their definition was a bit fuzzy. > Anything that had the 8 and 4 bits set, but not the 2--84 and 841--was a > numeric blank. Same for record and group marks. Rather than multipunch > record marks on my object decks, I used a period, which read in as 821, > but functioned as a record mark. Basically, you read the special digits > in and kept track of where they were. Speaking of character I/O, I think he also mentioned as a problem the fact that there was a paper tape reader, but it could not read arbitrary 8-bit patterns. > You could save enough of the execution state via the Dump Numeric opcode > to see what was going on, but there was no corresponding Read Numeric > opcode to read to the end of core. That was a fault of the I/O > implementation, not the basic system architecture. But then Dijkstra > should talk--how about the wonderful I/O capabilities of the first > version of Pascal? Pascal was done by Wirth, not Dijkstra. The issue with 1620 state is that you couldn't do multiprogramming because you could not context switch threads. The problem is the subroutine call; BB (subroutine returns) uses an invisible register. On I/O, it's not all that well known but the I/O system on the Electrologica X8 (which has a separate I/O coprocessor, vaguely like a CDC 6000 PPU but not user-programmable as far as I know) uses semaphores to communicate between the two engines. There's a semaphore that tracks the number of pending requests, and another that tracks completions and controls interrupt delivery. That is in addition to the widespread use of semaphores in the THE operating system. It's a very nice structure, and very reliable. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 19:10:47 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <195cc39f-e1fe-1154-e16e-6159904ac103@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 4:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 6/21/21 1:07 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not the OP, but I'm interested in fiddling with ReGIS a little. > > I just pulled out my VS240 and fired it up. Right now, I have a > > VR201 on it, but I also have a VR241 for it as well. > > Let me know if you would like some sample ReGIS files. I have a few of > them at hand. I even managed to create one by hand with little effort. I would love some sample ReGIS files, color or B&W. Anything, really. Thanks! -ethan From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 19:31:47 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:31:47 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <226129c0-de19-18bb-56f1-f14fa1cddaaf@sydex.com> <353c170d390169e30746e4836e00671faa2c5944.camel@sbcglobal.net> <27D4C63A-04B7-4504-8D33-CF11728E9256@comcast.net> <033daff4-730d-b8ec-c5c3-c96c21d9c362@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 18:55 -0500, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > Oh yeah, that was like 12 years ago? I believe they had gotten the > 1620 CADET (?Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try?) running One of my colleagues, about fifty years ago, wanted to use the 1620 for telemetry processing. So he replaced the arithmetic tables to do decimal with ones that did octal instead. The code was, of course, in assembler, not FORTRAN. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 22:01:41 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:01:41 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <8aeef774-e727-fc7a-e8c2-34ae2a417439@jetnet.ab.ca> <745F6ED3-6AE3-487C-8173-1C5781720607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <60ab3cb5-4b8a-d3be-dd9b-86c2ca5471e5@sydex.com> On 6/21/21 4:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Pascal was done by Wirth, not Dijkstra. The issue with 1620 state is that you couldn't do multiprogramming because you could not context switch threads. The problem is the subroutine call; BB (subroutine returns) uses an invisible register. BB is only useful if you're using a single-level subroutine structure, which , in production code, is almost never the case. It's more useful as a debugging register. The usual way to handle subroutine calls is to use BTM (Branch and transmit immediate), with the immediate value being the return address, which is stored just below the jump target. Mechanism for return depended on the presence of the indirect addressing option. (it, like many other features, was standard on the Model II, but not on the Cadet). If you had it, you simply did an indirect branch (49) referencing the transmitted return address. If you didn't have the option installed, you transmitted the return address into the P-field of a branch (49) instruction and jumped to that. Remind you of anything? --Chuck From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 22:13:50 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 23:13:50 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> Grant; Wow, that is very helpful.? I had downloaded xterm from invisible-island.net and executed a ./configure.? I complained that I lacked the Athena X widgets, so I paused on it. I'm going to give this another try. I'd like to thank all the kind folks who posted a response to my initial question. Doug On 6/20/2021 6:06 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 6/19/21 11:47 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Really?? I'm interested.? How do you build your own xterm? > > Download and extract the source code. > > Here's the configure command that I most recently used before teaching > Gentoo's ebuild about Sixel and ReGIS.? (The command is derived from > the ebuild I was patterning off of.) > > ./configure --build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --datadir=/usr/share > --disable-full-tgetent --disable-imake --disable-setgid > --disable-setuid --disable-toolbar --enable-256-color > --enable-broken-osc --enable-broken-st --enable-dabbrev > --enable-exec-xterm --enable-i18n --enable-load-vt-fonts > --enable-logging --enable-luit --enable-mini-luit --enable-openpty > --enable-regis-graphics --enable-screen-dumps --enable-sixel-graphics > --enable-warnings --enable-wide-chars --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu > --infodir=/usr/share/info --libdir=/etc --localstatedir=/var/lib > --mandir=/usr/share/man --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc > --with-app-defaults=/usr/share/X11/app-defaults --without-Xaw3d > --without-xinerama --with-utempter --with-x > > The key part is "--enable-sixel-graphics" and / or > "--enable-regis-graphics".? I'm also partial to the > "--enable-256-color" and "--enable-screen-dumps". > > The screen dumps mean that XTerm will save XHTML and / or XML dumps. > Meaning they are text that you can search / copy paste. }:-) > > P.S.? My messages to cctech don't seem to be going through.? So I'm > re-replying to the message to cctalk. > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jun 21 22:33:23 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:33:23 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> Message-ID: I have to admit, I?m watching this with interest. Hopefully I can see about getting this up and running one of these days. I find myself wondering what it would take to build this on a Mac, the current Mac xterm *SUCKS*!!! On the Mac, I can?t seem to use the custom DEC keybindings. Actually does DECterm support either Sixel and ReGIS? I?m dead on my feet, so won?t power up my VAXstation 4000/90 and look. Zane > On Jun 21, 2021, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Grant; > > Wow, that is very helpful. I had downloaded xterm from invisible-island.net and executed a ./configure. I complained that I lacked the Athena X widgets, so I paused on it. > > I'm going to give this another try. > > I'd like to thank all the kind folks who posted a response to my initial question. > > Doug > > On 6/20/2021 6:06 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/19/21 11:47 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> Really? I'm interested. How do you build your own xterm? >> >> Download and extract the source code. >> >> Here's the configure command that I most recently used before teaching Gentoo's ebuild about Sixel and ReGIS. (The command is derived from the ebuild I was patterning off of.) >> >> ./configure --build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --datadir=/usr/share --disable-full-tgetent --disable-imake --disable-setgid --disable-setuid --disable-toolbar --enable-256-color --enable-broken-osc --enable-broken-st --enable-dabbrev --enable-exec-xterm --enable-i18n --enable-load-vt-fonts --enable-logging --enable-luit --enable-mini-luit --enable-openpty --enable-regis-graphics --enable-screen-dumps --enable-sixel-graphics --enable-warnings --enable-wide-chars --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --infodir=/usr/share/info --libdir=/etc --localstatedir=/var/lib --mandir=/usr/share/man --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc --with-app-defaults=/usr/share/X11/app-defaults --without-Xaw3d --without-xinerama --with-utempter --with-x >> >> The key part is "--enable-sixel-graphics" and / or "--enable-regis-graphics". I'm also partial to the "--enable-256-color" and "--enable-screen-dumps". >> >> The screen dumps mean that XTerm will save XHTML and / or XML dumps. Meaning they are text that you can search / copy paste. }:-) >> >> P.S. My messages to cctech don't seem to be going through. So I'm re-replying to the message to cctalk. >> >> >> > From dnm at pobox.com Mon Jun 21 22:49:36 2021 From: dnm at pobox.com (Daniel Moniz) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:49:36 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 21, 2021, at 12:05 AM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: [snip] > denizen of the Fortran committees) is a LALR parser generator. I use > the generator written by Al Shannon when he was Charlie Wetherell's > student, now updated, which implements David Pager's algorithm that > generates a parser that is LR where necessary and LALR or SLR or LR(0) > where possible. Out of curiosity, which parser generator is this?; i.e., the one you use written by Al Shannon, and since updated? I went digging in my files and online, though only cursorily, and found Hyacc by Xin Chen, which I hadn't previously known about, but was wondering if you were referring to it, or something else, maybe the original implementation of LR in Fortran 66, e.g. ? -- Daniel Moniz [http://pobox.com/~dnm/] From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Jun 21 23:35:30 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:35:30 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> DECterm does allow graphics.? I've used it, but can't remember the details. For me the options were: 1. get a real VT340, already have a VT240 2. emulation software on a PC 3. DECterm, not a great option, works but if you want to use it remote the hardware multiplys 4. xterm, this was new to me, easy under linux Doug On 6/21/2021 11:33 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I have to admit, I?m watching this with interest. Hopefully I can see about getting this up and running one of these days. > > I find myself wondering what it would take to build this on a Mac, the current Mac xterm *SUCKS*!!! On the Mac, I can?t seem to use the custom DEC keybindings. > > Actually does DECterm support either Sixel and ReGIS? I?m dead on my feet, so won?t power up my VAXstation 4000/90 and look. > > Zane > > > >> On Jun 21, 2021, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> Grant; >> >> Wow, that is very helpful. I had downloaded xterm from invisible-island.net and executed a ./configure. I complained that I lacked the Athena X widgets, so I paused on it. >> >> I'm going to give this another try. >> >> I'd like to thank all the kind folks who posted a response to my initial question. >> >> Doug >> >> On 6/20/2021 6:06 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> On 6/19/21 11:47 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>> Really? I'm interested. How do you build your own xterm? >>> Download and extract the source code. >>> >>> Here's the configure command that I most recently used before teaching Gentoo's ebuild about Sixel and ReGIS. (The command is derived from the ebuild I was patterning off of.) >>> >>> ./configure --build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --datadir=/usr/share --disable-full-tgetent --disable-imake --disable-setgid --disable-setuid --disable-toolbar --enable-256-color --enable-broken-osc --enable-broken-st --enable-dabbrev --enable-exec-xterm --enable-i18n --enable-load-vt-fonts --enable-logging --enable-luit --enable-mini-luit --enable-openpty --enable-regis-graphics --enable-screen-dumps --enable-sixel-graphics --enable-warnings --enable-wide-chars --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --infodir=/usr/share/info --libdir=/etc --localstatedir=/var/lib --mandir=/usr/share/man --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc --with-app-defaults=/usr/share/X11/app-defaults --without-Xaw3d --without-xinerama --with-utempter --with-x >>> >>> The key part is "--enable-sixel-graphics" and / or "--enable-regis-graphics". I'm also partial to the "--enable-256-color" and "--enable-screen-dumps". >>> >>> The screen dumps mean that XTerm will save XHTML and / or XML dumps. Meaning they are text that you can search / copy paste. }:-) >>> >>> P.S. My messages to cctech don't seem to be going through. So I'm re-replying to the message to cctalk. >>> >>> >>> From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 23:40:53 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 21:40:53 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <7582fa85b057f8280c567516718a5e4ecb3bbee3.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 20:49 -0700, Daniel Moniz via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jun 21, 2021, at 12:05 AM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > [snip] > > denizen of the Fortran committees) is a LALR parser generator. I > > usethe generator written by Al Shannon when he was Charlie > > Wetherell'sstudent, now updated, which implements David Pager's > > algorithm thatgenerates a parser that is LR where necessary and > > LALR or SLR or LR(0)where possible. > > Out of curiosity, which parser generator is this?; i.e., the one you > use written by Al Shannon, and since updated? I went digging in my > files and online, though only cursorily, and found Hyacc < > http://hyacc.sourceforge.net/> by Xin Chen, which I hadn't previously > known about, but was wondering if you were referring to it, or > something else, maybe the original implementation of LR in Fortran > 66, e.g. < > https://doi.ieeecomputersociety.org/10.1109/TSE.1981.230837>;? It's that IEEECS program, Al Shannon's LR program, which I substantially revised, keeping Al's original structure but using more modern Fortran idioms. I also added a front-end, for which the parser was generated by itself, that makes it easier to use. It is also easier to integrate with the remainder of the program. The parser procedure that interprets the table generated by the generator creates an abstract syntax tree, for which I set up an easier way to integrate that with the grammar. I've used it for half a dozen projects during the last forty years. I also provided it to the students in my compiler classes for fourteen years. I'm happy to send it to anybody who wants it. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jun 21 23:45:41 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 22:45:41 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <195cc39f-e1fe-1154-e16e-6159904ac103@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 6/21/21 6:10 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I would love some sample ReGIS files, color or B&W. Anything, really. Here's the (relatively) simple ReGIS (.rgs) file that I made, modeled after something I saw on Twitter. I'm copying and pasting the ReGIS file because it's mostly printable text. The only exception is that "^[" on the first and last line are really the ASCII representation of the escape character. --8<-- ^[P1p; W(I3); F( ^IP[130,362] ^IV[312,44] ^IV[450,287] ^IV[372,287] ^IV[312,187] ^IV[170,430] ^IV[130,362] ); W(I1); F( ^IP[312,44] ^IV[390,44] ^IV[572,362] ^IV[292,362] ^IV[329,287] ^IV[450,287] ^IV[312,44] ); W(I2); F( ^IP[572,362] ^IV[532,430] ^IV[170,430] ^IV[312,187] ^IV[352,255] ^IV[292,362] ^IV[572,362] ); ^[\ -->8-- If it looks relatively simple, that's because it's three (identical, but rotated) shapes consisting of six points returning to the 1st to close the shape. From memory, it enters ReGIS mode, sets a color, defines the shape to be filled, and repeats. > Thanks! You're welcome. I'll happily email anybody copies of the ReGIS file(s) and / or Sixel file(s) that I have. Simply let me know that you'd like a copy. (Please email me directly instead of sending me too(s) to the list.) Teas: My one of my two favorite Sixels is a TRON tank. P.S. I've configured answer backs on my main systems and plumbed the skeleton into my rc files to allow the systems to know if the client (based on answer back of known systems) supports Sixel / ReGIS. I have grand ideas of making Zsh conditionally display a stop sign if / when $? is not zero. Maybe a yellow attention triangle with an exclamation point. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jun 21 23:56:36 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 22:56:36 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <25ee6c6b-54fe-c1f2-9b6e-5e39614d4f2e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/21/21 9:33 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I have to admit, I?m watching this with interest. Hopefully I can > see about getting this up and running one of these days. I too keep an eye out for things XTerm / Sixel (raster?) / ReGIS (vector) related. I learned about Sixel first, became quite interested, and then about ReGIS. I've since learned about GDM (?term?) graphics on 3279 (?model?) on mainframes. I've not yet managed to reproduce this myself, but I've seen pictures. I hope this goes without needing to be said, but for people reading this archive in the future, we're talking about the terminal actually supporting and displaying graphics, not some pseudo overlay / alpha background that some more mainstream terminal emulators use. > I find myself wondering what it would take to build this on a Mac, > the current Mac xterm *SUCKS*!!! On the Mac, I can?t seem to use > the custom DEC keybindings. XTerm on macOS? Please tell me more. I'm currently using iTerm2 as it's considerably better than Terminal from Apple. Though, it does seem as if iTerm2 supports Sixel. I think I heard some noise about ReGIS support in future versions. (I think it was ReGIS. Maybe it was that Sixel was coming when I last read about it.) > Actually does DECterm support either Sixel and ReGIS? I?m dead on > my feet, so won?t power up my VAXstation 4000/90 and look. I'm not up on DEC software. I think that there is a full DEC terminal emulator that some versions of may support graphics, though I don't know what type. I think there was also an XTerm profile / nickname that included DEC. (Or am conflating AIXterm?) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jun 22 00:03:22 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 23:03:22 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/21/21 10:35 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > DECterm does allow graphics. I've used it, but can't remember the > details. :-) > For me the options were: > > 1. get a real VT340, already have a VT240 I've occasionally wondered about getting a VT340 (or VT4xx / VT5xx). But then I look at prices and realize that I'd be chasing this for the wrong reasons. -- Especially when I think I could get what I want other ways. > 2. emulation software on a PC After seeing the prices of VT3xx / VT4xx / VT5xx when I looked a few years ago, I quickly decided that I didn't want to spend that sort of money. I'm now wondering about building something like a Raspberry Pi with an LCD display (native resolution?) in a custom case that's stylaized after the VT340 (?) case, all be it abbreviated so that it's much shallower. I'd probably simply run a full screen XTerm without any window manager. (I might have a different way to start with a window manager and traditional GUI.) I could support serial, but if I'm using an SBC, why not use Ethernet (or even WiFI)??? > 3. DECterm, not a great option, works but if you want to use it remote > the hardware multiplys Pleas elaborate and enlighten this DEC n00b? Aside: Does PATHWORKS include a DEC terminal emulator? If so, does it support graphics? Could it be made to run on contemporary systems? > 4. xterm, this was new to me, easy under linux :-) I'd hop it to be relatively easy under any Unix (like) operating system. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 00:53:42 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 01:53:42 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:14 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Wow, that is very helpful. I had downloaded xterm from > invisible-island.net and executed a ./configure. I complained that I > lacked the Athena X widgets, so I paused on it. I got that. On a RHEL7 box, I did: $ sudo yum install libXaw-devel.x86_64 It built cleanly. I'm about to test it. -ethan From dnm at fastmail.fm Mon Jun 21 22:39:34 2021 From: dnm at fastmail.fm (Daniel Moniz) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:39:34 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <2EDEFB3D-5DBB-468B-BD2D-6463BF1E0A52@shaw.ca> <71684b482d32b7063b086edb9319144d3c3ffa6d.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <796ed3db-9d58-4200-8c15-81ec0d376219@www.fastmail.com> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021, at 12:05 AM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: [snip] > denizen of the Fortran committees) is a LALR parser generator. I use > the generator written by Al Shannon when he was Charlie Wetherell's > student, now updated, which implements David Pager's algorithm that > generates a parser that is LR where necessary and LALR or SLR or LR(0) > where possible. Out of curiosity, which parser generator is this?; i.e., the one you use written by Al Shannon, and since updated? I went digging in my files and online, though only cursorily, and found Hyacc by Xin Chen, which I hadn't previously known about, but was wondering if you were referring to it, or something else, maybe the original implementation of LR in Fortran 66, e.g. ? -- Daniel Moniz [http://pobox.com/~dnm/] From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Jun 22 02:09:35 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:09:35 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> Message-ID: <15f0a001-f3b5-5d28-4112-089b19b5d90d@e-bbes.com> On 2021-06-22 01:03, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > After seeing the prices of VT3xx / VT4xx / VT5xx when I looked a few > years ago, I quickly decided that I didn't want to spend that sort of > money. And, if you get a cheap VT340, it probably is just an "A", not a "G+" version :( From matt at 9track.net Tue Jun 22 02:16:20 2021 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 08:16:20 +0100 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> <937e490b-0673-e8a9-6437-3fe864591f12@ntlworld.com> <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 21/06/2021 18:12, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I found the IPB on bitsavers and that lists the P4 phosphor and a > later CRT with the P40 phosphor. I think both of those are white. > > > I did find one seemingly untouched image of a VT100 with green text: > https://vistapointe.net/cliparts/getsecond. That does appear to be a > VT100 (not a VT102/VT103 etc) and is green. > > I did find many more white phosphor pictures than green (and no amber > at all). > The VT640 had a green phosphor. This was a 3rd party upgrade for the VT100 from Digital Engineering which gives the VT100 graphical capabilities. Part of the upgrade involved changing the picture tube. I suspect this was to reduce flicker as the phosphor has a high persistence. Here is an original advert for the upgrade: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rO0QAcSJpQUC&pg=PA27 Matt From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Jun 22 02:49:21 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:49:21 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2021-06-22 01:03, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'm now wondering about building something like a Raspberry Pi with an > LCD display (native resolution?) Be careful. The "native" resolution of the vt340 is 800x480 in 4:3 format ... So I would use an 15" 4K display at the RBpi, and scale up... Imagine a Tekronox Emulation on a 4K display ;-) > in a custom case that's stylaized after > the VT340 (?) case, all be it abbreviated so that it's much shallower. > I'd probably simply run a full screen XTerm without any window manager. > (I might have a different way to start with a window manager and > traditional GUI.) > I could support serial, but if I'm using an SBC, why not use Ethernet > (or even WiFI)??? I would love to see REAL RS232 on a RBPi, probably even the original MMJ from DEC for keyboard & mouse From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 03:04:44 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:04:44 +0100 Subject: Water Cooling and Hot Climates was RE: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books Message-ID: <0c1e01d7673d$43193370$c94b9a50$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Van Snyder via > cctalk > Sent: 22 June 2021 00:00 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books > > On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 17:26 -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > > Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with > > > purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal > > > properties than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the > 6500. > > > > When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he > > remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s > > were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a > > garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the > > machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it > > just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain. > > > > This unlike the IBM water machines. > > I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics shop > was the plumber. > I don't ever remember the 6080 being water cooled? I Thought Honeywell/GEC was all air cooled. All the L66s (which were from what the Multics machine was developed) were air cooled. I was told the following tale by one of my Honeywell contacts.... ... Apparently the last Shah of Iran owned a Level 66 for the use of his secret police. Apart from the fact that the OS had been modified by Honeywell Italy, and the documentation for this was in Italian which no one on the job understood, and when the OS crashed it was usually in a section of the code with Italian comments, there was also a problem with the power. As the temperature rose the power invariable failed. This was because it was run from a diesel generator that was out in the sun, it over heated and cut out..... ... any way after many complaints the military man in charge came to the Honeywell staff and told them the problem was solved. They of course asked how and were taken to the generator and shown the latest modification. They had fitted a new cap to the radiator with a thermometer in it, as often found on vintage cars. They had painted a read line on the gauge and assigned a soldier to watch it. When the needle got to the line, he blew his whistle and several other soldiers appeared and threw buckets of water over the engine until it cooled down.... I just wonder what they did while waiting for it to overheat...... > > > > -- > > Will Dave G4UGM From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 22 03:13:55 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:13:55 +0100 Subject: VT100 colors In-Reply-To: References: <7wpmwfpy0b.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <174F9A8F-C4E2-491D-903D-F65132D46C6C@avanthar.com> <2334f6c3-6d2e-9e93-8a4f-931adaebbc9e@ntlworld.com> <9F1D6F49-1CCE-4EFA-9B0F-FD687E9EE48A@comcast.net> <937e490b-0673-e8a9-6437-3fe864591f12@ntlworld.com> <6db0a564-8f17-0038-805c-0a217e82fe29@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <313fb607-6f3a-f4d5-c009-b5c0ce3c7434@ntlworld.com> On 22/06/2021 08:16, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > The VT640 had a green phosphor. This was a 3rd party upgrade for the > VT100 from Digital Engineering which gives the VT100 graphical > capabilities. Part of the upgrade involved changing the picture tube. I > suspect this was to reduce flicker as the phosphor has a high persistence. > > Here is an original advert for the upgrade: > > https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rO0QAcSJpQUC&pg=PA27 > > Matt The ones I used had a VT640 (although the only used for the graphics side that I remember was a labyrinth game and some ALGOL code I wrote to plot some coursework). I would never have guessed that the tube got changed as part of the process, but it looks like you probably bought the modified VT100 from Digital Engineering rather than installing a kit yourself. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jun 22 05:32:40 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 04:32:40 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> Message-ID: <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/22/21 1:49 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Be careful. The "native" resolution of the vt340 is 800x480 in 4:3 > format ... 800x480 isn't 4:3 aspect, like VGA 640x480 / SVGA 800x600 / XGA (?) 1024x768. But I suppose the aspect ratio can be the area that the pixels cover, not the actual pixel matrix. Your point is noted. Though I don't know if an improper resolution would make that much difference to me in my use case. But I'm not chasing an authentic experience. Rather I am after something neat / nifty / quaint, much like the PiCade is not a real arcade cabinet. > So I would use an 15" 4K display at the RBpi, and scale up... I personally dislike all the 4k monitors that I've seen. I'd be more likely to go old school. > Imagine a Tekronox Emulation on a 4K display ;-) ~chuckle~ > I would love to see REAL RS232 on a RBPi, probably even the original > MMJ from DEC for keyboard & mouse What is a /real/ RS-232? How does it differ from USB-to-RS-232 and / or bit banging GPIO lines? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Jun 22 06:26:03 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 07:26:03 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 2021-06-22 06:32, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 6/22/21 1:49 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> So I would use an 15" 4K display at the RBpi, and scale up... > > I personally dislike all the 4k monitors that I've seen.? I'd be more > likely to go old school. Why? I love the new ones, as I travel a lot ;-) >> Imagine a Tekronix Emulation on a 4K display ;-) > > ~chuckle~ ;-) >> I would love to see REAL RS232 on a RBPi, probably even the original >> MMJ from DEC for keyboard & mouse > > What is a /real/ RS-232?? How does it differ from USB-to-RS-232 and / or > bit banging GPIO lines? OK, sorry. "Real" is for me here, physically the same connectors like DB25/DB9/MMJ/etc ... From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 22 08:19:41 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:19:41 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6A455B73-D5A9-43E4-8DDA-5477EE21CC1C@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2021, at 6:32 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/22/21 1:49 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> Be careful. The "native" resolution of the vt340 is 800x480 in 4:3 format ... > > 800x480 isn't 4:3 aspect, like VGA 640x480 / SVGA 800x600 / XGA (?) 1024x768. But I suppose the aspect ratio can be the area that the pixels cover, not the actual pixel matrix. Some DEC displays use non-square pixels. An example (annoying because I've been wanting to connect to a modern display) is the Pro, which has a max resolution of 1024 by 480, on a 4:3 tube. > ... >> Imagine a Tekronox Emulation on a 4K display ;-) Like a Tek 4019? I remember seeing those in Typeset-11, amazing. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 10:12:17 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 11:12:17 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 6:32 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I would love to see REAL RS232 on a RBPi, probably even the original > > MMJ from DEC for keyboard & mouse > > What is a /real/ RS-232? How does it differ from USB-to-RS-232 and / or > bit banging GPIO lines? The OP said he meant with "real" connectors, but in my case, I've encountered strange buffering issues with USB serial dongles (since they are really block-mode devices, not character-at-a-time) and I've definitely had problems supporting lines with odd parameters (especially speeds slower than 300 baud or with 5-bits-per-char, like one would use for a Model 19 or Model 28 teletype). The hardware UARTs on AVR processors implement those juse fine (though for "50 baud", you often have to put a slower crystal on the processor because the 16-bit divisor overflows at 16-20MHz). The "soft serial" libraries often just hard-code 8-bit implementations. Fine for modern stuff but I have uses for connecting to electromechanical serial devices. In terms of a CRT terminal, though, most modern serial implementations are fine. -ethan From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 22 11:57:25 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:57:25 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <6A455B73-D5A9-43E4-8DDA-5477EE21CC1C@comcast.net> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6A455B73-D5A9-43E4-8DDA-5477EE21CC1C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <53204773-EA55-4695-81E2-CE8C0B9B01BC@avanthar.com> > On Jun 22, 2021, at 6:19 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >>> Imagine a Tekronox Emulation on a 4K display ;-) > > Like a Tek 4019? I remember seeing those in Typeset-11, amazing. That brings up an interesting question, how good is a 4K display for emulating vector graphics? Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 22 12:12:17 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:12:17 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <53204773-EA55-4695-81E2-CE8C0B9B01BC@avanthar.com> References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6A455B73-D5A9-43E4-8DDA-5477EE21CC1C@comcast.net> <53204773-EA55-4695-81E2-CE8C0B9B01BC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <9CCEAC16-D85D-4D9A-8034-29EBE0D2A31B@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > > >> On Jun 22, 2021, at 6:19 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> Imagine a Tekronox Emulation on a 4K display ;-) >> >> Like a Tek 4019? I remember seeing those in Typeset-11, amazing. > > That brings up an interesting question, how good is a 4K display for emulating vector graphics? Assuming you can feed such a display a video signal that actually represents 4k worth of pixels, without compression, it should be quite decent for vector graphics up to 11 bit x/y resolution or so. I have a CDC console (DD60) emulation, that's a 512x512 display with vector characters, which looks good on the 1k resolution laptop screen. Not so good before I started using the "Retina" mode and was only getting 512 pixel resolution; with that the pixel artefacts were quite visible and somewhat annoying. Depending on the API of the vector system, the hard part may be to create an adequate emulation of display persistence and fade. If the vector machine has a well defined refresh cycle that's probably straightforward (just display what the current display list says). If the graphics primitives simply amount to "send a stream of vectors to the tube" as is the case for the DD60, then you have to track elapsed time and fade the older pixels -- possibly with the help of an inferred display refresh cycle that isn't expressed in the data stream. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 22 14:40:02 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:40:02 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-06-21 3:47 p.m., Rich Alderson wrote: >> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 22:19:02 -0600 >> From: ben via cctalk > >> LISP still can't be compiled. > > May I respectfully suggest that you don't know WTF you're talking about? > > LISP compilers have existed for decades. One of the *early* MIT AI Lab papers > by Guy Steele is a comparison of the compiler for MACLISP (the Project MAC > dialect of Lisp, nothing to do with Apple computers) with the then current > FORTRAN compiler for the PDP-10 (called "F40"), in which the LISP compiler > generated better code than the FORTRAN compiler. > > Things have not degenerated since then. > > Rich Lisp is evaluated, not compiled from what little I have read. If I could read the papers (for free) I could know more. Refal "Recursive functions algorithmic language" from Russia looks just what I was looking for. Around since 1966. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 22 14:44:56 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 15:44:56 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <669F215E-334D-4B0B-9998-43141170A207@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2021, at 3:40 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Lisp is evaluated, not compiled from what little I have read. > If I could read the papers (for free) I could know more. > Refal "Recursive functions algorithmic language" from Russia > looks just what I was looking for. Around since 1966. > Ben. Any language can be interpreted or compiled. For some languages, like LISP and TECO, interpreting is a rather natural implementation techniques, while for others (C, ALGOL) compilation is the obvious answer. But either is possible. For example, there is a compiled TECO -- it turns the editor commands into PDP-10 machine code and then executes it (Stevens TECO, if I remember right). Of course there are implementations that are borderline between the two. The common Python implementation is an example, with its bytecode that is interpreted. Forth is partly bytecode and partly straight machine code. The Electrologica ALGOL compilers used somewhat similar mixtures of pseudocode and machine code. DEC's PDP-11 Fortran IV used bytecode, while Fortran IV-Plus uses machine code. (Two compilers for the same machine, two different approaches.) paul From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 22 15:27:51 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:27:51 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <669F215E-334D-4B0B-9998-43141170A207@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <669F215E-334D-4B0B-9998-43141170A207@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2021-06-22 at 15:44 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The Electrologica ALGOL compilers used somewhat similar mixtures of > pseudocode and machine code. The IBM 1401 Fortran compiler 1401-FO-050 (subset of Fortran II) generated machine code for integer operations, and bytecode for floating point. The machine didn't have any floating-point hardware. The bytecode was smaller than subroutine calls would have been. Floating-point arithmetic was rather well done. Up to 20 decimal digits, with two guard digits. Only significant defect was that rounding wasn't symmetric. Gary Mokotoff did a very good job. I have the source code if anybody wants it. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Jun 22 15:31:28 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 15:31:28 -0500 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19AD1382-4468-4D92-8C35-5AF2EE676985@charter.net> I?d like a copy. This is the card version? Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 22, 2021, at 3:28 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Tue, 2021-06-22 at 15:44 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> The Electrologica ALGOL compilers used somewhat similar mixtures of >> pseudocode and machine code. > > The IBM 1401 Fortran compiler 1401-FO-050 (subset of Fortran II) > generated machine code for integer operations, and bytecode for > floating point. The machine didn't have any floating-point hardware. > The bytecode was smaller than subroutine calls would have been. > Floating-point arithmetic was rather well done. Up to 20 decimal > digits, with two guard digits. Only significant defect was that > rounding wasn't symmetric. Gary Mokotoff did a very good job. I have > the source code if anybody wants it. > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Jun 22 18:41:45 2021 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 19:41:45 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> Message-ID: Someone already did this with a TEK4010 emulation:? See https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010 Hmmm... You could use a Raspberry Pi to emulate a number of terminals. Doug On 6/22/2021 3:49 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-06-22 01:03, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm now wondering about building something like a Raspberry Pi with an >> LCD display (native resolution?) > Be careful. The "native" resolution of the vt340 is 800x480 in 4:3 > format ... > > So I would use an 15" 4K display at the RBpi, and scale up... > > Imagine a Tekronox Emulation on a 4K display ;-) > >> in a custom case that's stylaized after >> the VT340 (?) case, all be it abbreviated so that it's much shallower. >> I'd probably simply run a full screen XTerm without any window manager. >> (I might have a different way to start with a window manager and >> traditional GUI.) >> I could support serial, but if I'm using an SBC, why not use Ethernet >> (or even WiFI)??? > I would love to see REAL RS232 on a RBPi, probably even the original MMJ > from DEC for keyboard & mouse > From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 22 16:10:09 2021 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 14:10:09 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Jun 22, 2021, at 12:40 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > Lisp is evaluated, not compiled from what little I have read. > If I could read the papers (for free) I could know more. So? have I got this right? 1. You admit directly you have only a little knowledge on the topic. 2. You choose to stand by your uninformed opinion (and dig your heels in deeper, even) instead of accepting information from somebody with more knowledge and/or direct experience, or taking the initiative to learn more about it yourself, before spouting off about it on a public mailing list. Jesus take the wheel. ok bear. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 22 16:43:59 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 15:43:59 -0600 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-06-22 3:10 p.m., r.stricklin via cctech wrote: > > >> On Jun 22, 2021, at 12:40 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > >> Lisp is evaluated, not compiled from what little I have read. >> If I could read the papers (for free) I could know more. > > So? have I got this right? > > 1. You admit directly you have only a little knowledge on the topic. > 2. You choose to stand by your uninformed opinion (and dig your heels in deeper, even) instead of accepting information from somebody with more knowledge and/or direct experience, or taking the initiative to learn more about it yourself, before spouting off about it on a public mailing list. > > > Jesus take the wheel. > > > ok > bear. > Reading a book on Lisp, 40 years ago is not being up to date on the topic.It mostly covered the eval loop, and how Lisp can be written in Lisp. When Lisp gets better keywords like HEAD and TAIL I might want to use it, if I had need for it. Right now I am looking at META-COMPILERS, not some thing new because I need a bootstrap language for a single accumulator machine with modest memory usage. 1965 to 1985 generated most of the new computing languages,operating systems and ideas. Sadly most of it seems lost source code wise. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 22 18:45:49 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 19:45:49 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2021, at 5:43 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > > ... > 1965 to 1985 generated most of the new computing languages,operating > systems and ideas. Sadly most of it seems lost source code wise. > Ben. I might push the start of that back to 1955, but apart from that I agree you have a good point. There's actually a surprising amount of preserved material. The SIMH project has been a very impressive help with that, as is Bitsavers. Then there is Hercules and DtCyber, to mention just two classic architectures preserved in emulators -- and each of these comes with a substantial body of operating systems and languages. The famous THE system has been preserved. The first ever ALGOL-60 compiler also (more precisely, the third, load and go, version of that compiler -- but that was a small incremental change not affecting the essential structure). Both in source form, and both run in emulation. The same goes for Multics, and OS/360, and CDC COS and Scope and Kronos, and Burroughs mainframe MCP. There is a collection of PDP-1 software, and IBM 1620 software, and so on. You can still run APL\360 as it existed on the IBM 360 mainframes, and you can experience the PLATO system just as it was in the late 1970s (for that, see cyber1.org). For most of this the source code still exists, though I'm not sure about the 1620 bits. So you aren't limited to playing with it, you can study the code, in as much depth as you care to. Some have gone deep enough to get a Ph.D. for their work (Gauthier van den Hove's extremely detailed analysis of that first ALGOL compiler). Of course there's also a lot that has vanished. The machine on which I learned assembly language seems to have vanished from history except for one sales pamphlet (the Philips PR8000). Software of the MC (CWI) research machines is pretty much gone, which is quite unfortunate since one of them is an ARMAC demo program written by Dijkstra containing his original implementation of the "shortest path" algorithm that later became the essence of several Internet routing protocols. paul From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 23 01:46:13 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 23:46:13 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> Message-ID: <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Tue, 2021-06-22 at 19:45 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > There's actually a surprising amount of preserved material.... Both > in source form, and both run in emulation. I re-created the Bendix G-15 Intercom 2000 from a manual. Not running, of course, on a real G-15. Is there a G-15 emulator? CHM has a G-15, but I understand it's not in operating order. | The same goes for Multics I think the 80286 was a better platform than the original for Multics. And, of course, the Pentium is even better. Is Multics available for Intel systems? > For most of this the source code still exists, though I'm not sure > about the 1620 bits. A Purdue professor had a 20-drawer card file of 1620 software. The fire marshall insisted he had to get rid of it. I understand he gave it to CHM. Is it still there? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jun 23 01:59:29 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 23:59:29 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <31ef5d7b-af44-6b22-b5e6-84ac58f245dd@jwsss.com> On 6/22/2021 11:46 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > | The same goes for Multics > > I think the 80286 was a better platform than the original for Multics. > And, of course, the Pentium is even better. Is Multics available for > Intel systems? I'm not sure what you are talking about.? Intel's engineers studied the Multics ring architecture then bungled the implementation of it.? the Intel 286 has nothing but that in common with Multics. Thru the efforts of several very talented people, and the releasing of the archived sources that MIT had had, as well as a backup from a very good system, a Multics emulator was written that can be found to run on Linux and on the Raspberry pi, and presumably other platforms to which the emulator can be ported. Is multics available for intel systems, as in did it ever run native.? never. but it does run just fine on Intel systems of about any sort running an appropriate host OS. thanks Jim From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jun 23 03:09:20 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:09:20 +1000 Subject: ARDS was Re: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5babe2ff6343e1c1a27d9517ab235eeb.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Douglas said > Someone already did this with a TEK4010 emulation:? See > > https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010 > > Hmmm... You could use a Raspberry Pi to emulate a number of terminals. Interesting that that emulator covers the ARDS. Surely there can't have been too many graphics terminals for general sale in the 1960s that had a mouse, but the ARDS was one of them. Here's an ad for it on page 17, Datamation December 1969: https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_datamation_42955706/page/n17/mode/2up Steve. From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jun 23 05:14:30 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 10:14:30 +0000 Subject: ARDS was Re: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <5babe2ff6343e1c1a27d9517ab235eeb.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> (Steve Malikoff via cctalk's message of "Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:09:20 +1000") References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <5babe2ff6343e1c1a27d9517ab235eeb.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <7wbl7wnb09.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Steve Malikoff wrote: > Douglas said >> Someone already did this with a TEK4010 emulation:? See >> https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010 >> Hmmm... You could use a Raspberry Pi to emulate a number of terminals. > > Interesting that that emulator covers the ARDS. I collected some notes about ARDS as relating to the ITS operating system: https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/821 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jun 23 06:00:57 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 13:00:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <195cc39f-e1fe-1154-e16e-6159904ac103@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2021, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would love some sample ReGIS files, color or B&W. Anything, really. You can use GNUplot with the terminal type set to ReGIS. Christian From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jun 23 11:52:50 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 16:52:50 +0000 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20210623165249.GA14855@lonesome.com> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 11:46:13PM -0700, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > Is there a G-15 emulator? I wrote a simulator yeaaaarrrrrs ago. I don't think it is online ATM, I will have to check. Rob Kolstad is apparently also working on one. We keep meaning to cross-check each others' work but then life happens. mcl From leec2124 at gmail.com Wed Jun 23 12:17:27 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 10:17:27 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: "A Purdue professor had a 20-drawer card file of 1620 software. The fire marshall insisted he had to get rid of it. I understand he gave it to CHM. Is it still there?" Yes. Catalog entry here: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141 Many years (decades?) ago Dave Babcock and I read all the cards as part of the original 1620 project at CHM. Thank God for Bitsavers.org because the images of the software are available here: http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/ Enjoy! Lee C. The obvious question is why is this material not on-line On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 11:46 PM Van Snyder via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 2021-06-22 at 19:45 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > There's actually a surprising amount of preserved material.... Both > > in source form, and both run in emulation. > > I re-created the Bendix G-15 Intercom 2000 from a manual. Not running, > of course, on a real G-15. Is there a G-15 emulator? CHM has a G-15, > but I understand it's not in operating order. > > | The same goes for Multics > > I think the 80286 was a better platform than the original for Multics. > And, of course, the Pentium is even better. Is Multics available for > Intel systems? > > > For most of this the source code still exists, though I'm not sure > > about the 1620 bits. > > A Purdue professor had a 20-drawer card file of 1620 software. The fire > marshall insisted he had to get rid of it. I understand he gave it to > CHM. Is it still there? > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From sieler at allegro.com Wed Jun 23 12:22:44 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 10:22:44 -0700 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul K got it right: "Any language can be interpreted or compiled. For some languages, like LISP and TECO, interpreting is a rather natural implementation techniques, while for others (C, ALGOL) compilation is the obvious answer. But either is possible." A few quick notes... Back around 1973, I wrote a compiler for InterLISP on the Burroughs B6700, with the target code being a new P-code invented just for LISP (by, I think, Bill Gord, based on Peter Deutsch and Ken Bowles P-code work). Yeah, some parts of the P-code machine had to invoke the interpreter, but that's philosophically no different than the next note... Around 1977/1978, Hewlett-Packard released the source code for their COBOL compiler for the HP 3000. My friend looked at the source and said: every statement compiles into a bunch of subroutine calls! So, technically....it was a compiler. But, essentially no machine code was emitted :) In 1984, HP announced their PA-RISC systems (HP 3000 and HP 9000), and that their ALGOL-like language, SPL, used by them and customers on the HP 3000, would not be ported to PA-RISC (because "it wasn't possible"). We looked at it and said: we can. And, we did (without the "subroutine call" mechanism :) In some cases, we emulate a 16-bit wide CISC architecture (e.g., if you use the SPL construct "ASSEMBLE (...)", we compile it...into PA-RISC code emulating the old architecture). It's still in use today, and can now emit either PA-RISC code or C source code (for a form of cross-compiling). What HP missed, and many people miss, is that any language can be compiled. The main question one might ask is the degree of closeness to machine code that's emitted :) Stan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 23 12:25:45 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 10:25:45 -0700 Subject: CHM's 1620 (was Re: Early Programming Books) In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <8cee3b35-57ee-09b4-3c84-1077a6d4d7a6@bitsavers.org> On 6/23/21 10:17 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > Many years (decades?) ago Dave Babcock and I read all the cards as part of > the original 1620 project at CHM. There has been a steady stream of misinformation about CHM's 1620 in the past week. I had been staying out of making any comments about it since I was hoping you or Dave were still watching this mailing list. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 23 12:26:51 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 13:26:51 -0400 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <9D8A1555-B8EB-4803-B414-6088208DF49E@comcast.net> > On Jun 23, 2021, at 1:17 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > > "A Purdue professor had a 20-drawer card file of 1620 software. The fire > marshall insisted he had to get rid of it. I understand he gave it to > CHM. Is it still there?" > > Yes. Catalog entry here: > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141 > > Many years (decades?) ago Dave Babcock and I read all the cards as part of > the original 1620 project at CHM. Thank God for Bitsavers.org because the > images of the software are available here: > http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/ > > Enjoy! > > Lee C. > > The obvious question is why is this material not on-line You gave a link to the "images" on bitsavers, so what did you mean by "not on-line"? paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 23 12:36:55 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 13:36:55 -0400 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> > On Jun 23, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > > Paul K got it right: > "Any language can be interpreted or compiled. For some languages, like > LISP and TECO, interpreting is a rather natural implementation techniques, > while for others (C, ALGOL) compilation is the obvious answer. But either > is possible." > > A few quick notes... > ...In some cases, we emulate a 16-bit wide CISC architecture (e.g., if you use > the SPL construct "ASSEMBLE (...)", we compile it...into PA-RISC code > emulating the old architecture). It's still in use today, and can now emit > either PA-RISC code or C source code (for a form of cross-compiling). That's a bit like the machine code translation pioneered by DEC (MIPS to ALPHA) and subsequently used by Apple ("Rosetta") for PowerPC to Intel and now Intel to ARM (M1). In a sense, those translators are compilers like all others, except for the rather unusual "source code" they accept as input. Similar but somewhat different: the DEC Alpha assembler was a compiler front end, connected to the code generator shared with the (conventional) Alpha compilers. It was rather amusing to say "macro/optimize" and see what the optimizer would do to your assembly code... > What HP missed, and many people miss, is that any language can be > compiled. The main question one might ask is the degree of closeness to > machine code that's emitted :) I think it was Dijkstra who observed, in the context of the original EL-X1 compiler, that you're generating code for a "machine" of your choosing. When you see a runtime library call, it makes sense to think of that as a machine operation of a hypothetical machine different from the physical target hardware. And function calls can be encoded as subroutine jump instructions, or in what is often more compact and nearly as fast, threaded code or P-code words. Typical FORTH implementations are neat in that respect, since they use a threaded code encoding that allows for fast and efficient switching between threaded code (subroutine calls) and straight machine code. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jun 23 13:25:43 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:25:43 -0700 Subject: CHM's 1620 (was Re: Early Programming Books) In-Reply-To: <8cee3b35-57ee-09b4-3c84-1077a6d4d7a6@bitsavers.org> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> <8cee3b35-57ee-09b4-3c84-1077a6d4d7a6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <097d5c9b-5057-4774-43fa-1870ded44a9b@jwsss.com> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/23/21 10:17 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > >> Many years (decades?) ago Dave Babcock and I read all the cards as >> part of >> the original 1620 project at CHM. > > There has been a steady stream of misinformation about CHM's 1620 in > the past > week. I had been staying out of making any comments about it since I > was hoping > you or Dave were still watching this mailing list. > > This is my fault, and I apologize.? I had the 1620 at USL that I first mentioned and it was a lament that a solid machine with printer and card reader / punch plus a spare cpu was not preserved to my knowledge.? There was a great donation made to the CHM, and that is the source of the misunderstanding. The system I speak of was in Lafayette, LA, and it would probably not have been feasible to save the 1620, or the GT-40 that was in my lab there. That system to my knowledge has nothing to do with the museums holdings. It's just a lament that such a gem was not saved or fate is unknown.? I appreciate finding out that what did get to the CHM from that collection is in good hands. Thanks Jim From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 23 13:42:22 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:42:22 -0700 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7c63e4d247bf745b7c87b4623d50c3b8d88993b9.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Wed, 2021-06-23 at 13:36 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Typical FORTH implementations are neat in that respect, since they > use a threaded code encoding that allows for fast and efficient > switching between threaded code (subroutine calls) and straight > machine code. I have a vague recollection of a story about a FORTH processor that put the addresses of the functions to be executed on the return-address stack (68000?) and then executed a RETURN instruction. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 23 13:44:21 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:44:21 -0700 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> There are the languages that are otherwise nearly impossible to compile. Consider SNOBOL4 (although there is a compiled version called SPITBOL, but without several hard-to-implement features). One can construct statements at run time and execute them. A bit unusual back then, but not so much today. In a way, I'm a bit surprised that no version of BASIC (in my experience) ever implemented this. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 23 13:59:11 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 14:59:11 -0400 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 23, 2021, at 2:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > There are the languages that are otherwise nearly impossible to compile. > > Consider SNOBOL4 (although there is a compiled version called SPITBOL, > but without several hard-to-implement features). One can construct > statements at run time and execute them. A bit unusual back then, but > not so much today. That just means compiling it at the time the constructed statement is submitted for execution, then executing the generated code. No problem so long as the compiler is available at run time. PDP-10 TECO did that (it has the same feature, executing a string buffer full of commands). So does Python, and I suspect it solves it the same way. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 23 16:02:10 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 14:02:10 -0700 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> On 6/23/21 1:14 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't remember the details at this point, but I assume the "execute TECO macro" operation in the Stevens PDP-10 TECO compiler is done in that way. And of course these could keep the compiled code around to reuse if the source string hasn't changed. A modern example of this technique is the regex library in Python, which lets you compile a regex string into a compiled regex object for later use, or lets you perform operations using the regex string directly. The latter form caches a string -> compiled regex cache so doing this in a loop still performs reasonably well. Could be the case of "what does "compile" mean?" If the meaning is "reduce to machine language" maybe not. Otherwise, if the meaning is "interpret", then maybe so. Consider this paragraph of the tutorial at http://www.snobol4.org/docs/burks/tutorial/ch7.htm" -------------------------------------------------------- 7.7 RUN-TIME COMPILATION The two functions described below are among the most esoteric features, not just of SNOBOL4, but of all programming languages in existence. While your program is executing, the entire SNOBOL4 compiler is just a function call away. ----------------------------------------------------------- So maybe not rendering into machine code, but something else. --Chuck From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jun 23 16:09:22 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:09:22 +0200 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <7c63e4d247bf745b7c87b4623d50c3b8d88993b9.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <7c63e4d247bf745b7c87b4623d50c3b8d88993b9.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 11:42:22AM -0700, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: [...] > I have a vague recollection of a story about a FORTH processor that put > the addresses of the functions to be executed on the return-address stack > (68000?) and then executed a RETURN instruction. I was initially going to say that doesn't sound right because m68k's JMP instruction supports all useful EA modes and a PEA/RTS combination takes two extra bytes and is slower than a plain JMP. But pushing *many* return addresses is more plausible because each function will then magically call each other in turn. I'm still not entirely convinced it'd be enough of a win (if any) over a conventional run of JSR instructions. Perhaps it actually misused RTM, which I never quite understood because Motorola's documentation on modules is rather opaque and it's only available on the 68020 onwards. This wheeze works on x86 too--and of course most other CPUs--but it can make mincemeat of performance on (some) modern CPUs because caches assume that CALL and RET are paired. ROP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming) is an interesting application of this technique, usually for nefarious purposes. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 23 16:18:19 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:18:19 -0400 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1F4B6CFE-0ABA-408F-811E-FE50509BBBDE@comcast.net> > On Jun 23, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6/23/21 1:14 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I don't remember the details at this point, but I assume the "execute TECO macro" operation in the Stevens PDP-10 TECO compiler is done in that way. And of course these could keep the compiled code around to reuse if the source string hasn't changed. A modern example of this technique is the regex library in Python, which lets you compile a regex string into a compiled regex object for later use, or lets you perform operations using the regex string directly. The latter form caches a string -> compiled regex cache so doing this in a loop still performs reasonably well. > > Could be the case of "what does "compile" mean?" If the meaning is > "reduce to machine language" maybe not. Otherwise, if the meaning is > "interpret", then maybe so. > > Consider this paragraph of the tutorial at > http://www.snobol4.org/docs/burks/tutorial/ch7.htm" > -------------------------------------------------------- > 7.7 RUN-TIME COMPILATION > > The two functions described below are among the most esoteric features, > not just of SNOBOL4, but of all programming languages in existence. > While your program is executing, the entire SNOBOL4 compiler is just a > function call away. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > So maybe not rendering into machine code, but something else. > > --Chuck I meant "reduce to machine language" (give or take threaded code or library function calls). It really doesn't seem to be any particular problem. There's nothing about compilers that prevents them from being invoked in the middle of an application. (Come to think of it, isn't that what a "just in time compiler" means?) paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 18:50:52 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:50:52 +0000 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <7c63e4d247bf745b7c87b4623d50c3b8d88993b9.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net>, <7c63e4d247bf745b7c87b4623d50c3b8d88993b9.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: How you'd do such in Forth depends on the threading method. You have Indirect threaded, direct threaded and call threaded. As you move to the right, they are faster and easier to add optimization but harder to deal with some of the higher level operations like Create Does> ( older Forth would be ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Van Snyder via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 11:42 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) On Wed, 2021-06-23 at 13:36 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Typical FORTH implementations are neat in that respect, since they > use a threaded code encoding that allows for fast and efficient > switching between threaded code (subroutine calls) and straight > machine code. I have a vague recollection of a story about a FORTH processor that put the addresses of the functions to be executed on the return-address stack (68000?) and then executed a RETURN instruction. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 23 19:23:44 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:23:44 -0700 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <1F4B6CFE-0ABA-408F-811E-FE50509BBBDE@comcast.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> <1F4B6CFE-0ABA-408F-811E-FE50509BBBDE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/23/21 2:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I meant "reduce to machine language" (give or take threaded code or library function calls). It really doesn't seem to be any particular problem. There's nothing about compilers that prevents them from being invoked in the middle of an application. (Come to think of it, isn't that what a "just in time compiler" means?) > Yeah, come to think of it the "JIT compiler" idea did occur to me as being the case. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 23 19:48:52 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:48:52 -0400 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> <1F4B6CFE-0ABA-408F-811E-FE50509BBBDE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00CAFB09-A515-40FE-B137-3AC5B61677DA@comcast.net> Somewhat related to the point of compiling and executing mixed together is a very strange hack I saw in the Electrologica assembler for the X8 (the company issue one, not one of the various ones built at various labs for that machine). It is essentially a "load and go" assembler, so the code is dropped into memory as it is assembled, with a list of places to be fixed up rather than the more typical two pass approach. You can use a variation of the usual "start address" directive to tell the assembler to start executing at that address right now. In other words, you can assemble some code, execute it, then go back to assembling the rest of the source text. Cute. Suppose you want to do something too hard for macros; just assemble its input data, followed by some code to convert that into the form you want, then go back to assembling more code. And that can start by backing up the assembly output pointer ("dot") so the conversion code doesn't actually take up space in the finished program. It sure makes cross-assemblers hard, because you have to include an EL-X8 simulator in the assembler... :-) paul From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 23 20:02:36 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:02:36 -0700 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <00CAFB09-A515-40FE-B137-3AC5B61677DA@comcast.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> <1F4B6CFE-0ABA-408F-811E-FE50509BBBDE@comcast.net> <00CAFB09-A515-40FE-B137-3AC5B61677DA@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2021-06-23 at 20:48 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > In other words, you can assemble some code, execute it, then go back > to assembling the rest of the source text. Cute. Suppose you want > to do something too hard for macros; just assemble its input data, > followed by some code to convert that into the form you want, then go > back to assembling more code. I proposed this for Fortran about twenty years ago, and for what became Ada when it was just DoD\1 requirements in about 1976. From leec2124 at gmail.com Wed Jun 23 22:37:31 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:37:31 -0700 Subject: Early Programming Books In-Reply-To: <9D8A1555-B8EB-4803-B414-6088208DF49E@comcast.net> References: <079201d765b0$69eda370$3dc8ea50$@gmail.com> <02e701d765c2$fd3ad0f0$f7b072d0$@gmail.com> <002301d765d1$526b6860$f7423920$@gmail.com> <700f06df-b5c2-6fa4-3ae2-f3ea217673d6@telegraphics.com.au> <0354a5bb-fc03-42b5-ac69-2f89fc6ad3f4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3b0f9d27-194c-2c97-f78c-a444db211a3c@telegraphics.com.au> <4G836H6ZW1zfYm@panix5.panix.com> <8c9f3b1c-f55f-3640-a324-4ffba44e6222@jetnet.ab.ca> <47ed1b19-b43f-8fe4-cb5f-3f29f8a3c4ed@jetnet.ab.ca> <6B3B9E3C-DA96-4C0B-A168-72F0D2CBAC13@comcast.net> <569bee653da7fff958784979d56ac927ce8f0be7.camel@sbcglobal.net> <9D8A1555-B8EB-4803-B414-6088208DF49E@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Paul - the images are on-line, I blame my inept typing and editing skills for not properly deleting that line. Originally I wrote that line as they are not on-line via CHM. But, I thought to look on Al's site and of course there they are. Which is the important thing - that people can get access to them. Computers...jeesh! Do what I want, not what I say! ;-) Lee On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:26 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jun 23, 2021, at 1:17 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > "A Purdue professor had a 20-drawer card file of 1620 software. The fire > > marshall insisted he had to get rid of it. I understand he gave it to > > CHM. Is it still there?" > > > > Yes. Catalog entry here: > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141 > > > > Many years (decades?) ago Dave Babcock and I read all the cards as part > of > > the original 1620 project at CHM. Thank God for Bitsavers.org because the > > images of the software are available here: > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/ > > > > Enjoy! > > > > Lee C. > > > > The obvious question is why is this material not on-line > > You gave a link to the "images" on bitsavers, so what did you mean by "not > on-line"? > > paul > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 24 00:02:53 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:02:53 -0600 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <00CAFB09-A515-40FE-B137-3AC5B61677DA@comcast.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> <1F4B6CFE-0ABA-408F-811E-FE50509BBBDE@comcast.net> <00CAFB09-A515-40FE-B137-3AC5B61677DA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4ec98191-5dcd-5ad4-1a57-5b0cd5b9d617@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2021-06-23 6:48 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Somewhat related to the point of compiling and executing mixed together is a very strange hack I saw in the Electrologica assembler for the X8 (the company issue one, not one of the various ones built at various labs for that machine). It is essentially a "load and go" assembler, so the code is dropped into memory as it is assembled, with a list of places to be fixed up rather than the more typical two pass approach. You can use a variation of the usual "start address" directive to tell the assembler to start executing at that address right now. In other words, you can assemble some code, execute it, then go back to assembling the rest of the source text. Cute. Suppose you want to do something too hard for macros; just assemble its input data, followed by some code to convert that into the form you want, then go back to assembling more code. And that can start by backing up the assembly output pointer ("dot") so the conversion code doesn't actually take up space in the finished program. > > It sure makes cross-assemblers hard, because you have to include an EL-X8 simulator in the assembler... :-) > > paul > But at least it not a 386. Did any other computers have built in rom or protected core used as rom for 'standard' routines like I/O or floating point. Ben. From mark at matlockfamily.com Wed Jun 23 17:08:54 2021 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:08:54 -0500 Subject: VT340 Emulation Message-ID: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> One VT340 emulator that works quite well is the VT Lan 40. This was one of the last terminals made by DEC. It ran Windows 3.1 from ROM and used the LK411-AA keyboard (with the round PC keyboard connector) displaying on a Super VGA LCD display (1024 x 768 x 16 colors) It could connect to several (unto 8) systems simultaneously using a DB25 serial, a MMJ serial, then over its ethernet connector: multiple LAT, CTERM (DECnet) and Telnet (TCP/IP) sessions. The session windows allow cut and paste between Windows. The VT340 emulation seems to be perfect displaying Regis and pixels correctly and handling mouse movements correctly in the VT340 mode. Output from Saturn Graph for VMS works great! It also displays APL overstrike characters correctly with VAX APL using the ^D prefix described in the APL documentation. It also handles some escape sequence quirks that RSX KED does that mess up other VT100 emulators. Being able to use a Super VGA display allows a small footprint compared to a real VT340 (for VCF events) and the fact that it uses a real LK411 keyboard is great. The only minor issue is that they are not cheap, but you can buy new-in-thebox old inventory at: http://keyways.com/vtlan40.html You?ll also need a VT411-AA keyboard sold separately and find a Super VGA LCD display. Fortunately the last item can be cheap. I got a good NEC one at a second hand store for $20. One final comment, the two VT Lan 40s I got eventually had a connector between the front power switch and the actual switch break due to a bad choice of plastic by DEC. However, this can easily be repaired with a 1? piece of 1/8? I.D. PVC tubing from the hardware store. Mark Matlock From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jun 24 01:25:35 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:25:35 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> And all this time I thought that I wanted a VT525! How much are the VTLAN40?s going for? Zane Sent from my iPod > On Jun 23, 2021, at 3:08 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > > One VT340 emulator that works quite well is the VT Lan 40. This was one > of the last terminals made by DEC. It ran Windows 3.1 from ROM and > used the LK411-AA keyboard (with the round PC keyboard connector) > displaying on a Super VGA LCD display (1024 x 768 x 16 colors) > > It could connect to several (unto 8) systems simultaneously using a > DB25 serial, a MMJ serial, then over its ethernet connector: multiple LAT, > CTERM (DECnet) and Telnet (TCP/IP) sessions. The session windows allow > cut and paste between Windows. > > The VT340 emulation seems to be perfect displaying Regis and pixels > correctly and handling mouse movements correctly in the VT340 mode. > Output from Saturn Graph for VMS works great! > > It also displays APL overstrike characters correctly with VAX APL using > the ^D prefix described in the APL documentation. It also handles some > escape sequence quirks that RSX KED does that mess up other VT100 > emulators. > > Being able to use a Super VGA display allows a small footprint compared to a > real VT340 (for VCF events) and the fact that it uses a real LK411 keyboard is great. > > The only minor issue is that they are not cheap, but you can buy new-in-thebox > old inventory at: > > http://keyways.com/vtlan40.html > > You?ll also need a VT411-AA keyboard sold separately and find a Super VGA > LCD display. Fortunately the last item can be cheap. I got a good NEC one at a > second hand store for $20. > > One final comment, the two VT Lan 40s I got eventually had a connector > between the front power switch and the actual switch break due to a bad > choice of plastic by DEC. However, this can easily be repaired with a 1? piece > of 1/8? I.D. PVC tubing from the hardware store. > > Mark Matlock From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 01:35:22 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:35:22 -0700 Subject: ISO: Docs for Mostek MK8009-CA omnibus memory Message-ID: Hey all -- Picked up a memory board for my PDP-8/A, it's a Mostek MK8009-CA, currently outfitted with 32KW of memory but with empty pads for another 32KW. Not a ton of documentation on this -- anyone have anything? At minimum, configuration information would be nice, I'd also like to know what it takes to upgrade it to 64KW (apart from 24 more 4116's), so schematics would be excellent. I have this weird idea about extending TSS/8 to use more memory and the advanced features of the KT8-A... - Josh From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jun 24 09:00:30 2021 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 09:00:30 -0500 Subject: Rockwell 65001EAB3 Message-ID: I know it's a long shot, but wondering if anyone might have a Rockwell 65001 EAB3 type IC lying around in a discard pile or otherwise willing to go to a new home.? Here's a pic of one in the Commodore C900 keyboard: https://i.ibb.co/tZ2m68x/IMG-1538.jpg I see one online for sale, but the both the pricing is untenable for a device I don't need to use but just wanted to research and I also don't want to prohibit a known good device from being available if needed. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jun 24 09:36:37 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 07:36:37 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2C98B8BF-D70B-4776-BC19-BC52CB636B50@avanthar.com> On Jun 24, 2021, at 6:30 AM, Mark Matlock wrote: > On Jun 24, 2021, at 1:25 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> And all this time I thought that I wanted a VT525! How much are the VTLAN40?s going for? >> >> Zane > > Zane, > If you explain to Mitch Miller at Keyways that you are a hobbyist, he will sell them for $400, > at least he has in the past. He also has new and used LK411-AA keyboards. The last one I > bought was $190 for new. That seems expensive but it has the round connector like a PC > used to used for keyboard before USB. It might be possible to make an adapter to convert > an old VT420 keyboard to the round connector if one knew how the pin outs for each mapped? > > On the SVGA displays, I?ve been using the NEC Accusync LCD 71VM and it works well. > As the unit comes it will operate at 800 x 600 256 color, but if you go to the Windows 3.1 > settings it can be changed to 1024 x 768 x 16 colors which works better to have multiple > sessions windows open at once. > > Mark Hi Mark, Thanks! That?s not bad at all considering what VT525?s are going for, and I?d really like to get a terminal with ReGIS Graphics (though I finally have a VAXstation 4000/90 running as a VAXstation). Mind you, I?m not sure why I need one. I wonder if an LK450-AA keyboard will work, I have a couple with WPS key-caps. I know those will work on an AlphaStation. The VTLAN40 page indicates it needs a LK412-AQ for the WPS version of the keyboard, so i?d probably better figure that in the cost. This makes me wonder, has anyone ever documented what all the different keyboards go to, and how they?re different? I?m more awake this morning, and took another look through the webpage, this time on my computer, rather than an iPod. This looks like the perfect replacement for the VT420 & DECserver 90TL in my Office. The ReGIS graphics helps to sell it. Most of the time I simply use SecureCRT on my Mac Pro, but occasionally I need a real DEC keyboard. Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 24 10:02:50 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 11:02:50 -0400 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <4ec98191-5dcd-5ad4-1a57-5b0cd5b9d617@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <4b64ddbf-1599-8b2a-e831-0da14bc4cffb@sydex.com> <4ebed33b-dc7a-86ee-742b-38868378ca45@sydex.com> <1F4B6CFE-0ABA-408F-811E-FE50509BBBDE@comcast.net> <00CAFB09-A515-40FE-B137-3AC5B61677DA@comcast.net> <4ec98191-5dcd-5ad4-1a57-5b0cd5b9d617@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2021, at 1:02 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-06-23 6:48 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Somewhat related to the point of compiling and executing mixed together is a very strange hack I saw in the Electrologica assembler for the X8 (the company issue one, not one of the various ones built at various labs for that machine). It is essentially a "load and go" assembler, so the code is dropped into memory as it is assembled, with a list of places to be fixed up rather than the more typical two pass approach. You can use a variation of the usual "start address" directive to tell the assembler to start executing at that address right now. In other words, you can assemble some code, execute it, then go back to assembling the rest of the source text. Cute. Suppose you want to do something too hard for macros; just assemble its input data, followed by some code to convert that into the form you want, then go back to assembling more code. And that can start by backing up the assembly output pointer ("dot") so the conversion code doesn't actually take up space in the finished program. >> It sure makes cross-assemblers hard, because you have to include an EL-X8 simulator in the assembler... :-) >> paul > But at least it not a 386. Did any other computers have built in rom or protected core used as rom for 'standard' routines like I/O or floating point. > Ben. Sure. A few examples: The Electrologica X1 (from 1958) has what one might call the first BIOS, in core ROM; the standard version (by E.W. Dijkstra, see his Ph.D. thesis) contains basic I/O services, a rudimentary assembler, and some operator interface mechanisms. Customers could order additional ROM, and several did to add run time library routines for their compilers to the ROM, things like floating point operations since the hardware did only integer arithmetic. The Electrologica X8 (1964) had an I/O coprocessor called CHARON which the main machine talks to via semaphores and queues; it does the detailed control of the various peripherals. It either came with ROM or with read/write core loaded at the factory, I'm not sure. It wasn't customer-programmable. The IBM 360/44 (early 1970s) with the very obscure Emulator option implements an emulation of the string and decimal instructions of the 360 instruction set in an emulator that lives in a separate memory, not addressable from the normal execution environment. It's read/write core memory, loaded (if it ever gets messed up, which I never saw happen) from a binary card deck using the "Emulator IPL" console button. I assume the Apollo Guidance Computer (1968 or thereabouts) is an example since it has a substantial core ROM, and also I believe loadable programs, but I don't know the details. There probably are quite a lot more but those are a few I know of. paul From mark at matlockfamily.com Thu Jun 24 08:30:53 2021 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 08:30:53 -0500 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2021, at 1:25 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > > And all this time I thought that I wanted a VT525! How much are the VTLAN40?s going for? > > Zane Zane, If you explain to Mitch Miller at Keyways that you are a hobbyist, he will sell them for $400, at least he has in the past. He also has new and used LK411-AA keyboards. The last one I bought was $190 for new. That seems expensive but it has the round connector like a PC used to used for keyboard before USB. It might be possible to make an adapter to convert an old VT420 keyboard to the round connector if one knew how the pin outs for each mapped? On the SVGA displays, I?ve been using the NEC Accusync LCD 71VM and it works well. As the unit comes it will operate at 800 x 600 256 color, but if you go to the Windows 3.1 settings it can be changed to 1024 x 768 x 16 colors which works better to have multiple sessions windows open at once. Mark From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 24 11:06:40 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 12:06:40 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> > On Jun 24, 2021, at 9:30 AM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jun 24, 2021, at 1:25 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> And all this time I thought that I wanted a VT525! How much are the VTLAN40?s going for? >> >> Zane > > Zane, > If you explain to Mitch Miller at Keyways that you are a hobbyist, he will sell them for $400, > at least he has in the past. He also has new and used LK411-AA keyboards. The last one I > bought was $190 for new. That seems expensive but it has the round connector like a PC > used to used for keyboard before USB. It might be possible to make an adapter to convert > an old VT420 keyboard to the round connector if one knew how the pin outs for each mapped? LK201s use 4800 baud UART interfacing. PC keyboards with DIN connectors (PS-2) have a very different type of interface, nothing like a UART. If the terminal you are talking about wants a PS-2 keyboard, as my VT501 does, you need a protocol translator. It would essentially be the reverse of the LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboards I released a while back, and possibly the same board could be used with a rather different program running on it. paul From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jun 24 11:50:54 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 12:50:54 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <2C98B8BF-D70B-4776-BC19-BC52CB636B50@avanthar.com> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> <2C98B8BF-D70B-4776-BC19-BC52CB636B50@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <9355741c-ab83-ac34-91cf-c6c9c0a6bbf6@e-bbes.com> On 2021-06-24 10:36, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Thanks! That?s not bad at all considering what VT525?s are going for, and I?d really like to get a terminal with ReGIS Graphics (though I finally have a VAXstation 4000/90 running as a VAXstation). Mind you, I?m not sure why I need one. If you just need Regis, get a GIGI, keyboard built in ;-) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 24 12:07:56 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:07:56 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <298f4bc2-bfc7-d84e-9d79-d1ba108d74dc@bitsavers.org> On 6/24/21 9:06 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > LK201s use 4800 baud UART interfacing. PC keyboards with DIN connectors (PS-2) have a very different type of interface, nothing like a UART. If the terminal you are talking about wants a PS-2 keyboard, as my VT501 does, you need a protocol translator. It would essentially be the reverse of the LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboards I released a while back, and possibly the same board could be used with a rather different program running on it. > > paul > > ebay seller wooch22 has been selling cherry wyse ansi layout keyboards that are restorable, if you want something to convert with the right layout https://www.ebay.com/itm/313552477333 From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 24 12:11:15 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:11:15 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <298f4bc2-bfc7-d84e-9d79-d1ba108d74dc@bitsavers.org> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> <298f4bc2-bfc7-d84e-9d79-d1ba108d74dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/24/21 9:06 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> LK201s use 4800 baud UART interfacing. PC keyboards with DIN connectors (PS-2) have a very different type of interface, nothing like a UART. If the terminal you are talking about wants a PS-2 keyboard, as my VT501 does, you need a protocol translator. It would essentially be the reverse of the LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboards I released a while back, and possibly the same board could be used with a rather different program running on it. >> paul > ebay seller wooch22 has been selling cherry wyse ansi layout keyboards that are restorable, if you want something to convert > with the right layout > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/313552477333 Thanks. That's a crazy high price for what "untested, for parts" with a thick coat of dirt. I find a conventional PC layout good enough for what I need. paul From mark at matlockfamily.com Thu Jun 24 11:11:39 2021 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 11:11:39 -0500 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <2C98B8BF-D70B-4776-BC19-BC52CB636B50@avanthar.com> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> <2C98B8BF-D70B-4776-BC19-BC52CB636B50@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 24, 2021, at 9:36 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > > Hi Mark, > Thanks! That?s not bad at all considering what VT525?s are going for, and I?d really like to get a terminal with ReGIS Graphics (though I finally have a VAXstation 4000/90 running as a VAXstation). Mind you, I?m not sure why I need one. > > I wonder if an LK450-AA keyboard will work, I have a couple with WPS key-caps. I know those will work on an AlphaStation. The VTLAN40 page indicates it needs a LK412-AQ for the WPS version of the keyboard, so i?d probably better figure that in the cost. This makes me wonder, has anyone ever documented what all the different keyboards go to, and how they?re different? > > I?m more awake this morning, and took another look through the webpage, this time on my computer, rather than an iPod. This looks like the perfect replacement for the VT420 & DECserver 90TL in my Office. The ReGIS graphics helps to sell it. Most of the time I simply use SecureCRT on my Mac Pro, but occasionally I need a real DEC keyboard. > > Zane Zane, Does the LK450-AA keyboard have a round 6 conductor PS/2 style connector? If so I think it would work. I looked up a pin out for that PS/2 connector and Pin 1 is data, Pin 2 is ground, Pin 4 is +5V, and Pin 5 is Clock with Pins 2 and 6 not used. I suspect that a common cheap PS/2 keyboard would also work fine except that keyboard mapping especially the keypad needed for EDT, KED, etc. might not work quite right. I do think this would make a great replacement for a VT420 and DECserver as few terminal emulators do LAT although Reflection did in the past. My favorite Mac VT terminal editor at the moment is ZOC which continues to get better with each update (although no VT340). I?ll send you a .pdf of the user manual for the VT LAN 40 separately that will give you a better picture of the unit. Best, Mark From mark at matlockfamily.com Thu Jun 24 11:16:12 2021 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 11:16:12 -0500 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6EB0B062-8552-42C4-8114-3D050ABE656D@MatlockFamily.com> > On Jun 24, 2021, at 11:06 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > LK201s use 4800 baud UART interfacing. PC keyboards with DIN connectors (PS-2) have a very different type of interface, nothing like a UART. If the terminal you are talking about wants a PS-2 keyboard, as my VT501 does, you need a protocol translator. It would essentially be the reverse of the LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboards I released a while back, and possibly the same board could be used with a rather different program running on it. > > paul Paul, The VT LAN 40 does use the PS-2 keyboard protocol like the VT501. The main board of the unit is a PC mother board running Windows 3.1 from ROM. It has some amount of non-volatile memory to store session settings. It does sound like a protocol translator like you design but in reverse would allow the older more common VT keyboard to be used. Mark From spam at hell.org Thu Jun 24 12:37:40 2021 From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 17:37:40 +0000 Subject: Interesting photos of a computer graphics lab from 1968 Message-ID: A friend of mine collects old photos, and sent me a link to this set he just recovered from film. He doesn't know much about the provenance, but it might be interesting to figure out what we can about them. The link is here: https://www.espressobuzz.net/Found/GeorgeClark/GraphicsLab/ The film roll was dated June 1968, which was a month before I was born. The most interesting (to me) is the photo of the Adage Graphics Terminal. I'd never heard of the company before, but it looks like they were one of the many tech companies that sprang up in the MIT & Harvard orbit in the 60s and 70s. There's a small amount of info about the company on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adage,_Inc. Also in the same photo, to the right of the terminal is a silver box that might be an early joystick. It's hard to say. The pictures of the graphics terminal output is pretty cool, given that it's probably really pushing state of the art at the time. Also, they're in color, which was still not terribly common at the time. The only few photos I was able to find of Adage terminals are all black and white. Other recognizable hardware are a couple of ASR33 teletypes (one of which was rebadged as Adage), and some tape drives, the manufacture I don't recognize. Everything else, I pretty much can't make out what any of it is, but perhaps someone recognizes the particular layout of the blinkinlights? He was told that the pictures were taken "somewhere in the northeast". I suspect Boston, and therefore probably MIT or maybe Harvard. On the same roll were some pictures of "a colonial ship with lots of cannons", which I suspect was the USS Constitution in Boston Harbor, but I haven't seen those pics yet. I wonder if the tile pattern on the floor is distinct enough or recognizable? Anyway, it's an interesting set of archival photos, and I figured someone here might find them interesting or might recognize more than I do. -mike From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 24 12:58:30 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:58:30 -0400 Subject: Interesting photos of a computer graphics lab from 1968 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1359DB-A853-40EC-AC44-79E33A487E9A@comcast.net> > On Jun 24, 2021, at 1:37 PM, Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: > > A friend of mine collects old photos, and sent me a link to this set he just recovered from film. He doesn't know much about the provenance, but it might be interesting to figure out what we can about them. > > The link is here: > > https://www.espressobuzz.net/Found/GeorgeClark/GraphicsLab/ > > The film roll was dated June 1968, which was a month before I was born. > > The most interesting (to me) is the photo of the Adage Graphics Terminal. I'd never heard of the company before, but it looks like they were one of the many tech companies that sprang up in the MIT & Harvard orbit in the 60s and 70s. There's a small amount of info about the company on Wikipedia: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adage,_Inc. > > Also in the same photo, to the right of the terminal is a silver box that might be an early joystick. It's hard to say. Seems like it. Amusing to see what was standard equipment in computer rooms early on: an ash tray. > ... > Other recognizable hardware are a couple of ASR33 teletypes (one of which was rebadged as Adage), The first two pictures seem to show an ASR35, the heavy duty terminal, while the third one is indeed an ASR33. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jun 24 14:34:04 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 12:34:04 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> <298f4bc2-bfc7-d84e-9d79-d1ba108d74dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2085EE0F-9ED9-4302-86E4-FEED41CD419F@avanthar.com> On Jun 24, 2021, at 10:11 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jun 24, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 6/24/21 9:06 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> LK201s use 4800 baud UART interfacing. PC keyboards with DIN connectors (PS-2) have a very different type of interface, nothing like a UART. If the terminal you are talking about wants a PS-2 keyboard, as my VT501 does, you need a protocol translator. It would essentially be the reverse of the LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboards I released a while back, and possibly the same board could be used with a rather different program running on it. >>> paul >> ebay seller wooch22 has been selling cherry wyse ansi layout keyboards that are restorable, if you want something to convert >> with the right layout >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/313552477333 > > Thanks. That's a crazy high price for what "untested, for parts" with a thick coat of dirt. I find a conventional PC layout good enough for what I need. > > paul Geeze, at that price, do I need to start clearing out my keyboard collection? Nope, not going to do it... I?m actually in pretty good shape, plenty of LK201?s & LK401?s (from my VT320?s, VT420?s, and workstations), plus a couple LK450-AA?s and a PCXAL or two. I?m just not clear on if there is any difference between a LK412-AA and a LK450-AA, both have the WPS keycaps, both have the PS/2 style DIN connector. I do wish I had a couple LK402-AA's (basically a 401 with WPS keycaps). I also wish I knew why I have two LK450-AA?s. :-) Though I?m glad I do. Besides a terminal with ReGIS Graphics, the only other terminal that would tempt me is a Honeywell, but then I can connect to Multics from a VT420 just fine. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 24 15:37:17 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:37:17 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <2085EE0F-9ED9-4302-86E4-FEED41CD419F@avanthar.com> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> <203538F7-537B-4221-AE73-D61D847BB581@avanthar.com> <1FD6C386-7A89-4C3F-ADA8-70906B0F9BB0@comcast.net> <298f4bc2-bfc7-d84e-9d79-d1ba108d74dc@bitsavers.org> <2085EE0F-9ED9-4302-86E4-FEED41CD419F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 6/24/21 12:34 PM, Zane Healy wrote: paul >> Thanks. That's a crazy high price for what "untested, for parts" with a thick coat of dirt. I find a conventional PC layout good enough for what I need. >> >> paul > > Geeze, at that price, do I need to start clearing out my keyboard collection? ccmp'ers blissfully ignorant at what keyboard ghouls have done to prices $70 is cheap for a Cherry kb now From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jun 24 15:39:46 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 14:39:46 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> References: <3BCE535A-7116-46F4-A9CC-F9D87E3F1D98@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <9bb6e5e5-2873-cfc7-b45b-f1da360aaaac@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/23/21 4:08 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > One VT340 emulator that works quite well is the VT Lan 40. This was > one of the last terminals made by DEC. It ran Windows 3.1 from ROM > and used the LK411-AA keyboard (with the round PC keyboard connector) > displaying on a Super VGA LCD display (1024 x 768 x 16 colors) > > It could connect to several (unto 8) systems simultaneously using a > DB25 serial, a MMJ serial, then over its ethernet connector: multiple > LAT, CTERM (DECnet) and Telnet (TCP/IP) sessions. The session windows > allow cut and paste between Windows. > > The VT340 emulation seems to be perfect displaying Regis and pixels > correctly and handling mouse movements correctly in the VT340 mode. > Output from Saturn Graph for VMS works great! > > It also displays APL overstrike characters correctly with VAX APL > using the ^D prefix described in the APL documentation. It also > handles some escape sequence quirks that RSX KED does that mess up > other VT100 emulators. I think the VT LAN 40 looks super interesting. Though the mentioned price is out of my /want/ range. Maybe if I /needed/ it. But I don't /need/ it. I wonder what terminal emulator it's running on top of Windows 3.x. I'd be interested in playing with it on a comparable system. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jun 24 15:41:54 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 14:41:54 -0600 Subject: Serial Multisession Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about the "Serial Multisession" that the VT LAN 40, and presumably other terminals, supports? I've not heard about it before and intend to do some research. But I figured that it was an interesting enough topic, that is multiplexing terminal sessions over a single serial link, to warrant further discussion. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 16:10:04 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 14:10:04 -0700 Subject: Serial Multisession In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 1:41 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the "Serial Multisession" that the VT > LAN 40, and presumably other terminals, supports? > > I've not heard about it before and intend to do some research. But I > figured that it was an interesting enough topic, that is multiplexing > terminal sessions over a single serial link, to warrant further discussion. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TD/SMP TD/SMP, short for Terminal Device/Session Management Protocol, was a terminal multiplexer system introduced by DEC on their VT330/340 terminals in 1987. The terminal-side was referred to as SSU. TD/SMP allowed data from two separate host sessions to be sent to a compatible computer terminal over a single serial port. The format was patented and never described in depth, limiting it to DEC's own terminal servers and terminals. Also supported by the VT420, VT510, VT520, VT525 Terminal device session management protocol https://patents.google.com/patent/US4791566 https://patents.google.com/patent/US5165020 SSU software was available on OpenVMS From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 16:25:35 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 14:25:35 -0700 Subject: Serial Multisession In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Also supported by the VT420, VT510, VT520, VT525 > Actually as far as I can tell the VT510 does not support TD/SMP (Terminal Device/Session Management Protocol). No mention of multiple sessions in this VT510 manual as there are in this VT520 manual. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt5xx/ http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt5xx/598-0013866_VT510_Installation_Nov96.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt5xx/EK-VT520-IN_VT520_Installation_and_Operating_Information_Apr94.pdf From gavin at learn.bio Thu Jun 24 18:42:08 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:42:08 -0500 Subject: Serial Multisession In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The patent goes into considerable depth on the "preferred embodiment" with descriptions of the protocol with flow control etc. and it looks like it could be pretty easy to reverse engineer if the actual implementation is similar to the description in the patent. If one had a working example to play with of course. Could be a fun little project. The flow control is kinda interesting. The receiver sends "transmit credits" to the sender who will consume them in the process of sending data and then stop until more credits are received. On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 4:25 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Also supported by the VT420, VT510, VT520, VT525 > > > > Actually as far as I can tell the VT510 does not support TD/SMP > (Terminal Device/Session Management Protocol). No mention of multiple > sessions in this VT510 manual as there are in this VT520 manual. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt5xx/ > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt5xx/598-0013866_VT510_Installation_Nov96.pdf > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt5xx/EK-VT520-IN_VT520_Installation_and_Operating_Information_Apr94.pdf From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jun 24 19:46:41 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:46:41 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/22/21 5:26 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Why? I love the new ones, as I travel a lot ;-) The 4k monitors that I've worked with have been ultra high DPI. This means that things that don't have DPI settings end up being tiny on the screen. It's especially a problem if you try to mix non-4k and 4k monitors. > OK, sorry. "Real" is for me here, physically the same connectors like > DB25/DB9/MMJ/etc ... So how does that differ than a USB-to-RS-232 with the proper passive adapter to go from DB-9 to DB-25 / MMJ. Season to taste regarding DB vs DE. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jun 24 19:51:26 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:51:26 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 6/22/21 9:12 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > The OP said he meant with "real" connectors, but in my case, > I've encountered strange buffering issues with USB serial dongles > (since they are really block-mode devices, not character-at-a-time) > and I've definitely had problems supporting lines with odd parameters > (especially speeds slower than 300 baud or with 5-bits-per-char, like > one would use for a Model 19 or Model 28 teletype). The hardware UARTs > on AVR processors implement those juse fine (though for "50 baud", > you often have to put a slower crystal on the processor because the > 16-bit divisor overflows at 16-20MHz). The "soft serial" libraries > often just hard-code 8-bit implementations. Fine for modern stuff > but I have uses for connecting to electromechanical serial devices. These seem like real problems, which can't be overcome by a passive physical adapter. These also seem like implementation problems to me. At least more than they seem like a USB spec problem. I naively assume that if someone wanted to produce a USB-to-Serial adapter that supported the things you're describing that they could do so. But sadly, I believe that RoI will be on the wrong side of the demand curve. > In terms of a CRT terminal, though, most modern serial implementations > are fine. *nod* -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 24 20:00:48 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 21:00:48 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <365509db-8a50-0939-da69-623339eab568@comcast.net> <41c7bd3c-84ad-d1aa-cb16-09bcea688513@comcast.net> <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <2CB8497A-6DAC-47A5-9BF5-B0354BFAE922@comcast.net> > On Jun 24, 2021, at 8:51 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/22/21 9:12 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> The OP said he meant with "real" connectors, but in my case, I've encountered strange buffering issues with USB serial dongles (since they are really block-mode devices, not character-at-a-time) and I've definitely had problems supporting lines with odd parameters (especially speeds slower than 300 baud or with 5-bits-per-char, like one would use for a Model 19 or Model 28 teletype). The hardware UARTs on AVR processors implement those juse fine (though for "50 baud", you often have to put a slower crystal on the processor because the 16-bit divisor overflows at 16-20MHz). The "soft serial" libraries often just hard-code 8-bit implementations. Fine for modern stuff but I have uses for connecting to electromechanical serial devices. > > These seem like real problems, which can't be overcome by a passive physical adapter. > > These also seem like implementation problems to me. At least more than they seem like a USB spec problem. I naively assume that if someone wanted to produce a USB-to-Serial adapter that supported the things you're describing that they could do so. But sadly, I believe that RoI will be on the wrong side of the demand curve. An Arduino or something of that size can easily do a USB to serial adapter in software. That would let you do any data rate and character length the device can so (if you use its UART) or whatever you can generate in bit-banging software. For example, a Raspberry Pico can clearly do any rate you want, including strange slow ones or oddballs like 134.5 baud 6 bits (or is that 7 -- for the serial line 2741). 45.45 baud 5 level and some strange fractional stop bit, not quite 1.5 -- no problem. 10 bit characters (for the classic PLATO terminal to host direction) -- no problem. paul From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Jun 25 00:07:05 2021 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 07:07:05 +0200 Subject: Sovier/Russian 132-pin PGA Ceramic IC Packaging In-Reply-To: <80945282-CCB8-4DA4-AF46-7704983A4DA5@btinternet.com> References: <004401d6fece$318ab3e0$94a01ba0$@gmail.com> <80945282-CCB8-4DA4-AF46-7704983A4DA5@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Though i?m no expert, it looks like those are more an artefact of production, rather than usable test points. It seems like those pins extend throughout the ceramic substrate, and were most likely produced by pushing the pins through holes in the substrate and then soldering them. This may have been a solution used when the factory making them had limited tooling, or the chip was particularly low volume and more dedicated tooling was uneconomical. > > > On Feb 9, 2021, at 10:27 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > > > In item https://www.ebay.com/itm/265045229011 I am curious as to whether the > > gold islands on the top-side are functional test-points giving electrical > > access to the underside pins? Was there a clip designed to attach to the > > top-side of these chips for use in circuit analysis? Was this design unique > > to Russian manufacture (I don't recall ever seeing this design previously)? > > > > > > > > paul > > :-) is it symtomatic for US people that things that russians do and that they couldn't explain, must have something todo with "limited tooling" or other limitations that russians "must have"? Nazis had the same idea, all other people seemed to be limited in on or another way. You already know what came later. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 03:07:49 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 09:07:49 +0100 Subject: INFAPLUG LAN Message-ID: <90A2294A-5B88-452C-A3B2-C09BE7F0D852@gmail.com> Hello folks, A random conversation on twitter yesterday lead me to discovering an old 1980s LAN technology called INFAPLUG. This was a serial LAN hooked up via a PC serial port at 9600 baud to a ?smart plug? the size of a wall wart. This plug contained all the smarts and hooked into the coax backbone. There were boards available for VAX amongst other things so I?m amazed I?d never heard of it. Has anyone else? A small writeup is here: https://archive.org/details/lansexplainedgui00curr/page/64/mode/2up?q=infaplug Cheers! -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jun 25 03:48:02 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 10:48:02 +0200 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 06:46:41PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: [...] > The 4k monitors that I've worked with have been ultra high DPI. This means > that things that don't have DPI settings end up being tiny on the screen. It works fine on MacOS, except for various garbage ports from Windows (Audacity is the one which comes to mind first) using "cross-platform" toolkits which ignore or misuse the native APIs. It's somewhat more hit-and-miss on Linux because it relies a lot more on those toolkits a lot more for GUI application software as there aren't so many native alternatives. But hey, it's still less broken than Windows. Windows is a curiously-heavyweight bootloader for Steam. It serves no other useful purpose. > It's especially a problem if you try to mix non-4k and 4k monitors. Disregarding the aforementioned software deliberately trying to subvert it, this again just works on the Mac: drag a window from one monitor to the other and the window contents will change its DPI to match. >> OK, sorry. "Real" is for me here, physically the same connectors like >> DB25/DB9/MMJ/etc ... > So how does that differ than a USB-to-RS-232 with the proper passive > adapter to go from DB-9 to DB-25 / MMJ. USB-serial dongles tend to be a wretched experience for a couple of reasons. The first is at the electrical layer: USB only has 5V available and generating RICH CHUNKY VOLTS in such a small dongle is difficult and expensive, so doesn't happen, and the voltage swing might not be wide enough for older devices. The other is in the software layer: the standards are a mess and the full gamut of serial protocols are not available and/or not implemented properly. The physical connector and pinout is an irrelevance in comparison. I own a soldering iron. From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Fri Jun 25 02:14:38 2021 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 08:14:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <7c63e4d247bf745b7c87b4623d50c3b8d88993b9.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D7FDE4D-AB7A-4C48-9425-18B6A49C9855@comcast.net> <7c63e4d247bf745b7c87b4623d50c3b8d88993b9.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jun 2021, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2021-06-23 at 13:36 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Typical FORTH implementations are neat in that respect, since they >> use a threaded code encoding that allows for fast and efficient >> switching between threaded code (subroutine calls) and straight >> machine code. > > I have a vague recollection of a story about a FORTH processor that put > the addresses of the functions to be executed on the return-address > stack (68000?) and then executed a RETURN instruction. I saw this on the 6502 in Woz's Sweet-16 interpreter. see e.g. http://www.6502.org/source/interpreters/sweet16.htm#When_is_an_RTS_really_a_JSR_ I initialiy used this "trick" in my own little bytecode VM but it's somewhat slower than some other methods, but as usual the trade-off is code-size vs. speed... Gordon From cliendo at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 08:07:10 2021 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 09:07:10 -0400 Subject: Interesting photos of a computer graphics lab from 1968 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just wanted to say thank you for sending us the link, they are great From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 25 08:07:23 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 09:07:23 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <19723E95-5198-4CD5-9FDC-52AA9D6E98F1@comcast.net> > On Jun 25, 2021, at 4:48 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 06:46:41PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> The 4k monitors that I've worked with have been ultra high DPI. This means >> that things that don't have DPI settings end up being tiny on the screen. > > It works fine on MacOS, except for various garbage ports from Windows > (Audacity is the one which comes to mind first) using "cross-platform" > toolkits which ignore or misuse the native APIs. There may be applications like that but Audacity does not fit the description. It uses WxWidgets, which is specifically known for using the native APIs on each of the platforms it runs on. Mac OS "retina" screen handling works by pretending, by default, that dots on the screen are 2x the real size. But you can address the actual pixels by requesting a scale factor of 0.5 in the API. I have several WxWidgets application that do this. A possible issue is that a lot of applications, including many Apple ones, don't offer an adequate selection of scaling options. This is one of the very few places where Windows is better, in that it offers ways to scale the text to comfortably large sizes for old eyes. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 25 09:24:31 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 08:24:31 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 2021-06-25 2:48 a.m., Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > USB-serial dongles tend to be a wretched experience for a couple of reasons. > The first is at the electrical layer: USB only has 5V available and > generating RICH CHUNKY VOLTS in such a small dongle is difficult and > expensive, so doesn't happen, and the voltage swing might not be wide enough > for older devices. The other is in the software layer: the standards are a > mess and the full gamut of serial protocols are not available and/or not > implemented properly. Or if you change USB ports the serial COM# changes. > > The physical connector and pinout is an irrelevance in comparison. I own a > soldering iron. > Well you can find mother boards with real COM port, but they are rare. I just got a new system built, and mine has one hidden on it. No connector for it however. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 25 09:31:58 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 10:31:58 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <04C56334-ABE1-46C3-AC2F-AE14207E9821@comcast.net> > On Jun 25, 2021, at 10:24 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > ... > Well you can find mother boards with real COM port, but they are rare. One place you can find them easily is on industrial computers. My firewall machine is one, because I wanted it to be fanless. It has the usual pile of USB ports and HDMI, but also 2 COM ports; another model of that same line has 6 COM ports. What seems to be harder to find is a parallel printer port, but there is far less reason to want one of those. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jun 25 09:43:06 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 07:43:06 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <19723E95-5198-4CD5-9FDC-52AA9D6E98F1@comcast.net> References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <19723E95-5198-4CD5-9FDC-52AA9D6E98F1@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jun 25, 2021, at 6:07 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > A possible issue is that a lot of applications, including many Apple ones, don't offer an adequate selection of scaling options. This is one of the very few places where Windows is better, in that it offers ways to scale the text to comfortably large sizes for old eyes. > > paul I had an Intern run afoul of the text scaling on Windows a couple months ago. When he started we thought they?d given him a laptop with some ridiculously low resolution, and he couldn?t run the main application we needed him working with in a usable fashion. Finally I realized Windows was ?zooming? it. When an application needs to be able to display a certain number of ?lines? of data to be usable, this sort of behavior isn?t exactly useful in such a case. Zane From kfergason at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 05:31:38 2021 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 05:31:38 -0500 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <983F6D18-0D75-441B-8729-9A7305C94CF9@gmail.com> > On Jun 25, 2021, at 4:54 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Wed, 23 Jun 2021, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > >>> On Wed, 2021-06-23 at 13:36 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> Typical FORTH implementations are neat in that respect, since they >>> use a threaded code encoding that allows for fast and efficient >>> switching between threaded code (subroutine calls) and straight >>> machine code. >> >> I have a vague recollection of a story about a FORTH processor that put >> the addresses of the functions to be executed on the return-address >> stack (68000?) and then executed a RETURN instruction. > > I saw this on the 6502 in Woz's Sweet-16 interpreter. > > see e.g. > > http://www.6502.org/source/interpreters/sweet16.htm#When_is_an_RTS_really_a_JSR_ > > I initialiy used this "trick" in my own little bytecode VM but it's somewhat slower than some other methods, but as usual the trade-off is code-size vs. speed... > > Gordon yeah standard 6502 trick to keep a jump table. kelly From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 25 17:04:28 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 15:04:28 -0700 Subject: On compiling. (Was a way off topic subject) In-Reply-To: <983F6D18-0D75-441B-8729-9A7305C94CF9@gmail.com> References: <983F6D18-0D75-441B-8729-9A7305C94CF9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/25/21 3:31 AM, Kelly Fergason via cctalk wrote: >> On Jun 25, 2021, at 4:54 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >> >> http://www.6502.org/source/interpreters/sweet16.htm#When_is_an_RTS_really_a_JSR_ >> >> I initialiy used this "trick" in my own little bytecode VM but it's somewhat slower than some other methods, but as usual the trade-off is code-size vs. speed... This "trick" can be performed on nearly any microprocessor with a stack that keeps return addresses on said stack--and permits a program to push data onto the stack. Certainly x80 and x86 CPUs, where it isn't that uncommon. Interesting status returns can be implemented by adjusting the return address on the stack in sort of a "reverse" computed goto; e.g. sub_entry:.... add [stack top], status*jump instruction size return ...calling code... call sub_entry jmp status_0 jmp status_1 jmp status_2 ..etc. Which saves the caller from having to perform multiple compares (or a computed GOTO) on the status return. On lower PIC microcontrollers, there is no way for a program to access code space (i.e. Harvard architecture). Static lookup tables represent a concept requiring some thought. Low PIC code memory uses 13 bit words, while data memory uses 8. Fortunately, there is an opcode, RETLW, that is "return from subroutine with 8 bit value in the W register". So one codes a table of RETLW xx instructions and performs an indexed call into it. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jun 25 17:31:42 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 16:31:42 -0600 Subject: INFAPLUG LAN In-Reply-To: <90A2294A-5B88-452C-A3B2-C09BE7F0D852@gmail.com> References: <90A2294A-5B88-452C-A3B2-C09BE7F0D852@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/25/21 2:07 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hello folks, Hi, > A random conversation on twitter yesterday lead me to discovering > an old 1980s LAN technology called INFAPLUG. Would you mind sharing link(s) to said conversation? It sounds like one I'd like to learn from / maybe be part of. > This was a serial LAN hooked up via a PC serial port at 9600 baud to a > ?smart plug? the size of a wall wart. This plug contained all the > smarts and hooked into the coax backbone. There were boards available > for VAX amongst other things so I?m amazed I?d never heard of it. Interesting. > Has anyone else? I have not. > A small writeup is here: > https://archive.org/details/lansexplainedgui00curr/page/64/mode/2up?q=infaplug ~grumble~grumble~grumble~there goes $14~grumble~grumble~grumble~ I'll read the rest of that chapter once my (new old stock) copy of LANs explained arrives. -- I might even be persuaded to transcribe the subsequent page / pertinent parts if there is interest. I don't actually /blame/ you for sharing the link Adrian. Well, maybe --><-- this much. ;-) My predilection for for old computer / networking technology is /my/ problem. And my pocket book's problem, but that's a different story. Aside: I opted for the (purportedly) new copy that was available via an Amazon seller for ~9 + ~4 S&H. Why not? It's not that much more than a used copy. > Cheers! ~grumble~WAVE!!! Thank you for sharing Adrian. P.S. I'm serious about wanting to check out the Twitter conversation. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jun 25 17:53:08 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 16:53:08 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 6/25/21 2:48 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > USB-serial dongles tend to be a wretched experience for a couple > of reasons. The first is at the electrical layer: USB only has 5V > available and generating RICH CHUNKY VOLTS in such a small dongle > is difficult and expensive, so doesn't happen, and the voltage > swing might not be wide enough for older devices. That sounds like a legitimate problem. But it sounds more like an /execution/ problem than a /possibility/ or /capability/ problem. E.g. USB interface between a host the device (both in the USB parlance) where the device is externally powered. > The other is in the software layer: the standards are a mess and > the full gamut of serial protocols are not available and/or not > implemented properly. I can't tell if that's a USB specification problem or a problem with what people have executed / built (thus far). From my naive point of view, I wonder if it would be possible to build some sort of USB device that has a traditional UART that has supporting circuitry to connect to the host over USB. -- I say this because it sounds like many ~> most ~> all (?) USB to RS-232 converters are doing something inferior. > The physical connector and pinout is an irrelevance in comparison. I > own a soldering iron. LOL (literally) I love your sentiment there. I quite agree with it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 18:54:07 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 16:54:07 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 3:53 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > From my naive point of view, I wonder if it would be possible to build > some sort of USB device that has a traditional UART that has supporting > circuitry to connect to the host over USB. -- I say this because it > sounds like many ~> most ~> all (?) USB to RS-232 converters are doing > something inferior. > Of course that has been done in commercial products. For example I have some Inside Out Networks Edgeport / 4 devices (apparently later sold by Digi) that are implemented using a traditional ST16C654 quad UART and MAX3243E RS-232 transceivers, with an Intel 80930 microcontroller as the interface between the UART and the USB host. The Intel 80930 has an 80251 core integrated with a USB interface, and was one of the first microcontrollers available on the market. This device dates from 1997, so reasonably early in the USB game. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jun 26 04:16:42 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 10:16:42 +0100 Subject: INFAPLUG LAN In-Reply-To: References: <90A2294A-5B88-452C-A3B2-C09BE7F0D852@gmail.com> Message-ID: <823BD883-A802-4A3F-928A-FDD7AF56ED6F@gmail.com> > On 25 Jun 2021, at 23:31, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/25/21 2:07 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> Hello folks, > > Hi, > >> A random conversation on twitter yesterday lead me to discovering an old 1980s LAN technology called INFAPLUG. > > Would you mind sharing link(s) to said conversation? It sounds like one I'd like to learn from / maybe be part of. My orginal email was pretty much it unfortunately, since it was borne out of a thread on Stag PPZ EPROM programmers. >> This was a serial LAN hooked up via a PC serial port at 9600 baud to a ?smart plug? the size of a wall wart. This plug contained all the smarts and hooked into the coax backbone. There were boards available for VAX amongst other things so I?m amazed I?d never heard of it. > > Interesting. > >> Has anyone else? > > I have not. > >> A small writeup is here: https://archive.org/details/lansexplainedgui00curr/page/64/mode/2up?q=infaplug > > ~grumble~grumble~grumble~there goes $14~grumble~grumble~grumble~ > I wasn?t about to pay up which is why I asked here :) Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 26 06:42:13 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 13:42:13 +0200 Subject: INFAPLUG LAN In-Reply-To: References: <90A2294A-5B88-452C-A3B2-C09BE7F0D852@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 at 00:31, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Would you mind sharing link(s) to said conversation? It sounds like one > I'd like to learn from / maybe be part of. Would appear to be: https://twitter.com/BinaryDinosaurs/status/1407993695006232579 Twitter has a search function, you know. :-) https://twitter.com/search-advanced?lang=en -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Jun 26 07:43:16 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:43:16 +0200 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 04:53:08PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 6/25/21 2:48 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: [...] >> The other is in the software layer: the standards are a mess and the >> full gamut of serial protocols are not available and/or not implemented >> properly. > I can't tell if that's a USB specification problem or a problem with what > people have executed / built (thus far). A bit of both. The USB communications device class (CDC) is designed for modems, and it can be hit-and-miss trying to speak to something else. Of course, that doesn't prevent one from ignoring that standard and just creating a bespoke USB device which happens to produce RS232, and FTDI do just that. FTDI's devices are better than standard CDC, but that's not a terribly high bar. > From my naive point of view, I wonder if it would be possible to build > some sort of USB device that has a traditional UART that has supporting > circuitry to connect to the host over USB. -- I say this because it sounds > like many ~> most ~> all (?) USB to RS-232 converters are doing something > inferior. Well, these things will contain a UART of some form, because how else could they work? For all I know they may even incorporate an actual 16550 IP core in the design and talk to that from its firmware, although a UART uses bugger all gates by modern standards and you can just get an intern to design one in a lunchbreak rather than pay for an IP core. It doesn't seem impossible to build a decent USB-serial dongle which caters to all of the weird and wonderful edge cases, but the market for such things is small enough that they would be quite expensive to produce, reducing the market further. >> The physical connector and pinout is an irrelevance in comparison. I own >> a soldering iron. > LOL (literally) I love your sentiment there. I quite agree with it. Something I'm putting off is installing a USB micro-B plug on my old iPod whose 30 pin socket has finally given up the ghost. I could just buy a new one, except they don't make them any more: the current device called an "iPod" is a glorified advertising hoarding which has a usability disaster of a media player bolted on as an afterthought. From mark.tapley at swri.org Sat Jun 26 10:31:56 2021 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 15:31:56 +0000 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> On Jun 26, 2021, at 7:43 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk > wrote: ... A bit of both. The USB communications device class (CDC) is designed for modems, and it can be hit-and-miss trying to speak to something else. Of course, that doesn't prevent one from ignoring that standard and just creating a bespoke USB device which happens to produce RS232, and FTDI do just that. FTDI's devices are better than standard CDC, but that's not a terribly high bar. ... At one point FTDI had a reasonably good reputation, and I own one of those devices based on that reputation. I have used it with no obvious problems connecting a TRS Color Computer 3 to an iMac G3 for a floppy-drive emulator (DriveWire on the iMac), but I think only for that application so far. Are there any particular pitfalls I should watch out for with the FTDI device, when/if I can get back to working with it? - Mark From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jun 26 12:15:26 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 13:15:26 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> Message-ID: <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> > On Jun 26, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > > At one point FTDI had a reasonably good reputation, and I own one of those devices based on that reputation. I have used it with no obvious problems connecting a TRS Color Computer 3 to an iMac G3 for a floppy-drive emulator (DriveWire on the iMac), but I think only for that application so far. > > Are there any particular pitfalls I should watch out for with the FTDI device, when/if I can get back to working with it? I once bought a USB serial port device with a DE-9 connector on it, Belkin I think. It worked somewhat. Might have needed its own driver, which on a Mac is highly unusual. It gave me enough trouble I set it aside. Since then I've bought several different flavors of the FTDI USB serial device, one RS-232, one 5 volt logic, one 3.3 volt logic (the latter two with 6-pin connectors to fit onto pin headers such as are found on the BeagleBone Black). They have always worked flawlessly (on my Mac), at a number of data rates: 4800, 9600, 19.2k, 115k. I'll admit I haven't needed stranger cases like 5 or 6 bit data, or exotic slow speeds. As I mentioned, if that need arises and FTDI isn't good enough I'll have the RPico to do the job. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jun 26 12:24:34 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 11:24:34 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> Message-ID: <32aa542f-38af-60d4-7fbd-f8a84106200e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/26/21 9:31 AM, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > Are there any particular pitfalls I should watch out for with the > FTDI device, when/if I can get back to working with it? I've used -- what I'll generically call -- FTDI devices one or more times a year for the last decade or more. Admittedly I'm not asking much of it; 115200, 8, n, 1, or 9600, 8, n, 1, to connect to serial console ports on network equipment. Aside: I believe that Cisco started including such FTDI devices in some of their equipment and only exposing the USB cable / port. So all you need is a passive USB cable -- easy enough to obtain -- and a new enough OS that it includes drivers for FTDI ports -- also easy enough to obtain. I do recall having problems with /some/ devices that fall into the FTDI device category. I don't know that they were FTDI /brand/ per se. I don't know if those problems were driver and / or hardware related. But I do know that the ones that had FTDI in their driver / device name (as reported by Windows' Device Manager) tended to be more reliable and work longer. As in didn't die 6 months later. I have one USB-to-Serial that I picked up out of a junk pile that has 16 (?) DE-9 male ports on it and one USB-B port on it. It presents itself to the computer as 16 discrete serial ports on one USB device. It was definitely worth the price of digging through the bone pile in 95 degree heat. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jun 26 12:37:15 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 11:37:15 -0600 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <25d57b68-b77a-3352-3fb7-a88216bcf996@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/26/21 6:43 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > A bit of both. The USB communications device class (CDC) is designed > for modems, and it can be hit-and-miss trying to speak to something > else. Are you commenting about USB-to-Serial (a.k.a. FTDI) devices or USB devices in general? I commonly referred to USB as Useless Bus between the late '90s and mid '00s. Supporting it, especially on non-bleeding edge computers / OSs, was ... not pleasant. > Of course, that doesn't prevent one from ignoring that standard and > just creating a bespoke USB device which happens to produce RS232, > and FTDI do just that. FTDI's devices are better than standard CDC, > but that's not a terribly high bar. Interesting. > Well, these things will contain a UART of some form, because how > else could they work? Snark warning: Have you seen a WinModem? Seriously, I could see something blindly sampling the electrical signal and then doing everything in software. As in Digital Signal Processing. No actual knowledge / design as if it's serial until you get the data stream out the other end. Obviously needing comparable to be able to transmit. > For all I know they may even incorporate an actual 16550 IP core in > the design and talk to that from its firmware, although a UART uses > bugger all gates by modern standards and you can just get an intern > to design one in a lunchbreak rather than pay for an IP core. I suspect you'd get what you paid for. IMHO there are too many permutations on what constitutes serial. If anything, this discussion supports that. Even if we limit our scope to be RS-232, RS-422, and RS-485 without going further afield. How much of the serial ecosystem do we eliminate if equipment assumes 8-bit? }:-) > It doesn't seem impossible to build a decent USB-serial dongle which > caters to all of the weird and wonderful edge cases, but the market > for such things is small enough that they would be quite expensive > to produce, reducing the market further. I don't know. Maybe. I've seen some really fancy things designed by people as part of the Retro Computing / Retro Networking hobby. Perhaps someone will take up the torch and a Good (TM) USB to Serial converter, open source the design* and someone else will sell PCBs and / or kits for it. Maybe even someone will assemble some and sell them for those that don't own a soldering iron or aren't good at using one. > Something I'm putting off is installing a USB micro-B plug on my > old iPod whose 30 pin socket has finally given up the ghost. I could > just buy a new one, except they don't make them any more: the current > device called an "iPod" is a glorified advertising hoarding which has > a usability disaster of a media player bolted on as an afterthought. Interesting. I've not heard of anyone doing this. But I'm not surprised that it's possible. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jun 26 12:39:50 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 11:39:50 -0600 Subject: INFAPLUG LAN In-Reply-To: <823BD883-A802-4A3F-928A-FDD7AF56ED6F@gmail.com> References: <90A2294A-5B88-452C-A3B2-C09BE7F0D852@gmail.com> <823BD883-A802-4A3F-928A-FDD7AF56ED6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9bb29cd4-ae9d-9489-2cd0-a752318c70f5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/26/21 3:16 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > My orginal email was pretty much it unfortunately, since it was borne > out of a thread on Stag PPZ EPROM programmers. ACK I saw the EPROM programmer tweet. I didn't pay much attention to it, not my bag, and thus didn't see the reply about InfaPlug. > I wasn?t about to pay up which is why I asked here :) Fair. The book happens to fit in the union of multiple interests of mine and my wife and I tend to amass books. I wonder if a few online used book stores recognize my name yet. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Jun 26 16:09:19 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:09:19 -0700 Subject: USB Serial conversion / was Re: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <969E350C-7E4C-4997-9541-EAA29A1B6194@shaw.ca> On 2021-Jun-26, at 10:15 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Jun 26, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: >> >> At one point FTDI had a reasonably good reputation, and I own one of those devices based on that reputation. I have used it with no obvious problems connecting a TRS Color Computer 3 to an iMac G3 for a floppy-drive emulator (DriveWire on the iMac), but I think only for that application so far. >> >> Are there any particular pitfalls I should watch out for with the FTDI device, when/if I can get back to working with it? > > I once bought a USB serial port device with a DE-9 connector on it, Belkin I think. It worked somewhat. Might have needed its own driver, which on a Mac is highly unusual. It gave me enough trouble I set it aside. > > Since then I've bought several different flavors of the FTDI USB serial device, one RS-232, one 5 volt logic, one 3.3 volt logic (the latter two with 6-pin connectors to fit onto pin headers such as are found on the BeagleBone Black). They have always worked flawlessly (on my Mac), at a number of data rates: 4800, 9600, 19.2k, 115k. I'll admit I haven't needed stranger cases like 5 or 6 bit data, or exotic slow speeds. As I mentioned, if that need arises and FTDI isn't good enough I'll have the RPico to do the job. A couple years ago, somewhat on a whim, I checked a small number of USB-Serial converters for driving a couple of Model 28 Teletypes. I didn't really expect anything so modern to work below 300 BPS, or do the needed 5-data/2-stop, but the teletypes were 75 BPS, which is just another in the division-of-2 series down from 19200,9600,etc.; and I was actually figuring on just using 8-bit and ensuring the later bits were 0 so they would be seen as stop bits, and take a bit of a penalty on the 28 print speed (might be a little rough/abusive on the teletype commutator start/stop though). Sometimes, ya luck out: one of them actually worked down to 75 BPS, *and* did 5-data/2-stop. There's no ID on the physical unit but it shows up on the system (OSX) as: Product ID: 0x2303 Vendor ID: 0x067b (Prolific Technology, Inc.) (Product ID 0x2303: Prolific produces a series of PL2303x USB-Serial chips.) It was plug-n-play on the Mac (given a terminal app program that knows to accept and perform the little-used config specs). There are some other teletypes to get going that need slower speeds, for which I intend a solution as (Paul) suggests, bit-banging out of an RPi. The code was written some time ago, but haven't gotten around to the physical connections. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jun 26 16:34:41 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 15:34:41 -0600 Subject: Serial Multisession In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008903bf-e6c5-ee74-9e71-93eedf61759f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Thank you for the links Glen. I'll add them to my reading like. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bruns at 2mbit.com Sat Jun 26 17:03:44 2021 From: bruns at 2mbit.com (Brielle) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 16:03:44 -0600 Subject: USB Serial conversion / was Re: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <969E350C-7E4C-4997-9541-EAA29A1B6194@shaw.ca> References: <969E350C-7E4C-4997-9541-EAA29A1B6194@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Unfortunately, with newer M1 macs and BigSur you are limited to FTDI USB serial dongles since there?s no new prolific driver AFAIK. At least the FTDI driver is included out of the box. I?ve had really good luck when I?ve needed slow/odd speeds with the Comtrol RPS series of Ethernet connected serial boxes. Sent from my iPad > On Jun 26, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > (Product ID 0x2303: Prolific produces a series of PL2303x USB-Serial chips.) > > It was plug-n-play on the Mac (given a terminal app program that knows to accept and perform the little-used config specs). From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jun 26 17:42:36 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:42:36 -0500 Subject: Interesting photos of a computer graphics lab from 1968 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/24/21 12:37 PM, Mike Begley via cctalk wrote: > Other recognizable hardware are a couple of ASR33 teletypes (one of > which was rebadged as Adage), and some tape drives, the manufacture I > don't recognize. Everything else, I pretty much can't make out what any > of it is, but perhaps someone recognizes the particular layout of the > blinkinlights? The panels at the tops of the racks all seem to say Adage. Perhaps the blinkenlights panel is theirs, too? From macro at orcam.me.uk Sat Jun 26 18:08:15 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 01:08:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <04C56334-ABE1-46C3-AC2F-AE14207E9821@comcast.net> References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <04C56334-ABE1-46C3-AC2F-AE14207E9821@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Well you can find mother boards with real COM port, but they are rare. > > One place you can find them easily is on industrial computers. My > firewall machine is one, because I wanted it to be fanless. It has the > usual pile of USB ports and HDMI, but also 2 COM ports; another model of > that same line has 6 COM ports. > > What seems to be harder to find is a parallel printer port, but there is > far less reason to want one of those. However both serial and parallel ports remain reasonably available as PCIe option devices. Though parallel ports seem to be made as legacy PCIe devices only, that is accessed with I/O rather than memory read/write bus cycles, which are not, as I have learnt the hard way recently, supported by all computer systems nowadays. I guess x86 systems will continue to support them however as x86 CPUs have native I/O access instructions. Maciej From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 26 21:11:19 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 19:11:19 -0700 Subject: Interesting photos of a computer graphics lab from 1968 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72f58db8-5512-daec-cf17-a703b897dd49@bitsavers.org> On 6/26/21 3:42 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > The panels at the tops of the racks all seem to say Adage. Perhaps the blinkenlights panel is theirs, too? > > > The entire system is an Adage Graphics Terminal There are some docs now up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/adage/agt From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 26 22:55:07 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 20:55:07 -0700 Subject: Interesting photos of a computer graphics lab from 1968 In-Reply-To: <72f58db8-5512-daec-cf17-a703b897dd49@bitsavers.org> References: <72f58db8-5512-daec-cf17-a703b897dd49@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6/26/21 7:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 6/26/21 3:42 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> >> The panels at the tops of the racks all seem to say Adage. Perhaps the blinkenlights panel is theirs, too? >> >> >> > The entire system is an Adage Graphics Terminal > > There are some docs now up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/adage/agt > > wonder if Marc ever read the Adage tapes... https://www.mail-archive.com/cctech at classiccmp.org/msg03811.html From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 27 09:29:52 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 10:29:52 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <04C56334-ABE1-46C3-AC2F-AE14207E9821@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0569227D-5902-4F6A-AB0D-3A964E363DA3@comcast.net> > On Jun 26, 2021, at 7:08 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >>> Well you can find mother boards with real COM port, but they are rare. >> >> One place you can find them easily is on industrial computers. My >> firewall machine is one, because I wanted it to be fanless. It has the >> usual pile of USB ports and HDMI, but also 2 COM ports; another model of >> that same line has 6 COM ports. >> >> What seems to be harder to find is a parallel printer port, but there is >> far less reason to want one of those. > > However both serial and parallel ports remain reasonably available as > PCIe option devices. Though parallel ports seem to be made as legacy PCIe > devices only, that is accessed with I/O rather than memory read/write bus > cycles, which are not, as I have learnt the hard way recently, supported > by all computer systems nowadays. I guess x86 systems will continue to > support them however as x86 CPUs have native I/O access instructions. I/O cycles on PCI have no direct connection to I/O instructions. I've routinely used I/O operations in PCI on a MIPS platform, which of course has no such concept; all that was needed is to send the memory cycles to the address block that the PCI bridge maps onto I/O cycles rather than memory cycles. paul From macro at orcam.me.uk Sun Jun 27 11:41:19 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 18:41:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PCIe/PCI I/O access (was: Re: VT340 Emulation) In-Reply-To: <0569227D-5902-4F6A-AB0D-3A964E363DA3@comcast.net> References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <04C56334-ABE1-46C3-AC2F-AE14207E9821@comcast.net> <0569227D-5902-4F6A-AB0D-3A964E363DA3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Paul Koning wrote: > > However both serial and parallel ports remain reasonably available as > > PCIe option devices. Though parallel ports seem to be made as legacy PCIe > > devices only, that is accessed with I/O rather than memory read/write bus > > cycles, which are not, as I have learnt the hard way recently, supported > > by all computer systems nowadays. I guess x86 systems will continue to > > support them however as x86 CPUs have native I/O access instructions. > > I/O cycles on PCI have no direct connection to I/O instructions. I've > routinely used I/O operations in PCI on a MIPS platform, which of course > has no such concept; all that was needed is to send the memory cycles to > the address block that the PCI bridge maps onto I/O cycles rather than > memory cycles. That's not my point. The host bridge has to implement them and some do not (e.g. the POWER9 PHB4). For CPU architectures that do not have native I/O cycle support an MMIO window has to be defined by the host bridge for memory cycles decoded within that window to be forwarded downstream as PCIe I/O Read/Write TLPs (likewise with legacy PCI I/O Read/Write cycles). If you don't define such a window along with associated circuitry (like with the PHB4), then there's simply no way to produce I/O TLPs on PCIe. When you have a CPU architecture such as x86 that does do I/O cycles natively, then they're just forwarded by the host bridge as PCIe I/O Read/Write TLPs. Of course one can envisage an x86 host bridge that won't forward I/O cycles produced by the CPU to PCIe and will either terminate them with a bus error or let them time out, but I find it highly unlikely. For one I suspect the circuitry required to terminate unclaimed host bus I/O cycles is no less expensive than one to just forward them downstream; after all a PCIe I/O TLP is told apart from a memory TLP merely by a difference in a bit pattern sent downstream that encodes the cycle type, one of several (likewise with PCI cycles). NB PCIe I/O Read/Write TLPs have been deprecated ever since the first revision of the PCIe specification and PCIe devices that do require I/O TLPs for operation have always been referred to as legacy PCIe devices. I guess support for such devices has been added to the specification so as to aid the industry with switching entirely to the MMIO operating model, with initial PCIe devices expected to be implemented by placing the original PCI/PCI-X ASIC behind a PCIe-to-PCI bridge, until new PCIe ASICs have been made. For some option cards it seems the only way to date, e.g. PCIe ATM network adapters. As it has turned out actual PCIe ASICs have been manufactured that do require I/O Read/Write TLPs for their operation such as said IEEE 1284 parallel ports. It's not actually clear to me why, but a plausible explanation is they have been considered too niche at that point for the effort required for the OS drivers to be updated. Maciej From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun Jun 27 13:09:08 2021 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 11:09:08 -0700 Subject: PCIe/PCI I/O access (was: Re: VT340 Emulation) In-Reply-To: References: <1a8c30b8-bad3-8e86-d5b2-32a850c94544@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <04C56334-ABE1-46C3-AC2F-AE14207E9821@comcast.net> <0569227D-5902-4F6A-AB0D-3A964E363DA3@comcast.net> Message-ID: Thanks this was interesting learning. On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 9:41 AM Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > However both serial and parallel ports remain reasonably available as > > > PCIe option devices. Though parallel ports seem to be made as legacy > PCIe > > > devices only, that is accessed with I/O rather than memory read/write > bus > > > cycles, which are not, as I have learnt the hard way recently, > supported > > > by all computer systems nowadays. I guess x86 systems will continue > to > > > support them however as x86 CPUs have native I/O access instructions. > > > > I/O cycles on PCI have no direct connection to I/O instructions. I've > > routinely used I/O operations in PCI on a MIPS platform, which of course > > has no such concept; all that was needed is to send the memory cycles to > > the address block that the PCI bridge maps onto I/O cycles rather than > > memory cycles. > > That's not my point. The host bridge has to implement them and some do > not (e.g. the POWER9 PHB4). For CPU architectures that do not have native > I/O cycle support an MMIO window has to be defined by the host bridge for > memory cycles decoded within that window to be forwarded downstream as > PCIe I/O Read/Write TLPs (likewise with legacy PCI I/O Read/Write > cycles). > If you don't define such a window along with associated circuitry (like > with the PHB4), then there's simply no way to produce I/O TLPs on PCIe. > > When you have a CPU architecture such as x86 that does do I/O cycles > natively, then they're just forwarded by the host bridge as PCIe I/O > Read/Write TLPs. Of course one can envisage an x86 host bridge that won't > forward I/O cycles produced by the CPU to PCIe and will either terminate > them with a bus error or let them time out, but I find it highly > unlikely. > For one I suspect the circuitry required to terminate unclaimed host bus > I/O cycles is no less expensive than one to just forward them downstream; > after all a PCIe I/O TLP is told apart from a memory TLP merely by a > difference in a bit pattern sent downstream that encodes the cycle type, > one of several (likewise with PCI cycles). > > NB PCIe I/O Read/Write TLPs have been deprecated ever since the first > revision of the PCIe specification and PCIe devices that do require I/O > TLPs for operation have always been referred to as legacy PCIe devices. > I guess support for such devices has been added to the specification so as > to aid the industry with switching entirely to the MMIO operating model, > with initial PCIe devices expected to be implemented by placing the > original PCI/PCI-X ASIC behind a PCIe-to-PCI bridge, until new PCIe ASICs > have been made. For some option cards it seems the only way to date, e.g. > PCIe ATM network adapters. > > As it has turned out actual PCIe ASICs have been manufactured that do > require I/O Read/Write TLPs for their operation such as said IEEE 1284 > parallel ports. It's not actually clear to me why, but a plausible > explanation is they have been considered too niche at that point for the > effort required for the OS drivers to be updated. > > Maciej > From lee_courtney at acm.org Sun Jun 27 13:42:18 2021 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee C.) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 11:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Lawrence Moser Breed 1940-2021, A Personal Recollection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9dd1cfdd-abb9-40a8-a23b-96a65db0fcbfn@googlegroups.com> Sad computer history note - Larry Breed, one of the original implementors of Iverson Notation AKA A Programming Language AKA APL passed away last month. Larry went to work at IBM on the first APL implementation on an IBM 7090 in 1965 as his first job out of Stanford. My path crossed Larry's not thru APL, but when I was working my first retirement job at Hassett Hardware in downtown Palo Alto. Larry would come in to buy parts for his latest Burning Man or community project. He was a delightful person to talk with, learn something from, and just be around. I'm sorry I did not take the time to talk to him more about APL when I had the chance. There's a Wikipedia entry on Larry here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_M._Breed) and remembrances of him on the apl.comp.lang mailing list. God speed Larry and RIP. Lee Courtney From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jun 27 21:08:58 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 21:08:58 -0500 Subject: Interesting photos of a computer graphics lab from 1968 In-Reply-To: <72f58db8-5512-daec-cf17-a703b897dd49@bitsavers.org> References: <72f58db8-5512-daec-cf17-a703b897dd49@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0476eb3f-cf3b-7425-0279-b22b72a48ba5@charter.net> On 6/26/2021 9:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 6/26/21 3:42 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> >> The panels at the tops of the racks all seem to say Adage. Perhaps the blinkenlights panel is theirs, too? >> >> >> > The entire system is an Adage Graphics Terminal > > There are some docs now up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/adage/agt > > UW Madison had an Adage graphics setup, that looks very much like the brochures on the bitsavers site you put up, in the basement of 1210 W. Dayton Street (the newer part, when I saw it), along side a CDC-160. I *think* the Adage was lashed up to the Univac 1108 at the time. I don't recall if it was two rack units or three - my guess is three. I never saw it in operation (though we did have a class assignment on that CDC-160. ;) ). I don't have any Adage manuals, unfortunately. By 1982 (and starting sometime before that) that kind of graphics was handled by the PDP-11/03 inside Intergraph graphics terminals with special raster support cards and network cards communicating with a PDP-11/23 or VAX using a home-grown CSMA/CD scheme of their own - including loading the code for the PDP-11/03 based graphics terminals over the network. JRJ From abs at absd.org Mon Jun 28 03:23:31 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 09:23:31 +0100 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 at 18:15, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On Jun 26, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > > > > At one point FTDI had a reasonably good reputation, and I own one of those devices based on that reputation. I have used it with no obvious problems connecting a TRS Color Computer 3 to an iMac G3 for a floppy-drive emulator (DriveWire on the iMac), but I think only for that application so far. > > > > Are there any particular pitfalls I should watch out for with the FTDI device, when/if I can get back to working with it? > > I once bought a USB serial port device with a DE-9 connector on it, Belkin I think. It worked somewhat. Might have needed its own driver, which on a Mac is highly unusual. It gave me enough trouble I set it aside. > > Since then I've bought several different flavors of the FTDI USB serial device, one RS-232, one 5 volt logic, one 3.3 volt logic (the latter two with 6-pin connectors to fit onto pin headers such as are found on the BeagleBone Black). They have always worked flawlessly (on my Mac), at a number of data rates: 4800, 9600, 19.2k, 115k. I'll admit I haven't needed stranger cases like 5 or 6 bit data, or exotic slow speeds. As I mentioned, if that need arises and FTDI isn't good enough I'll have the RPico to do the job. I noticed this the other day, just in case it's of interest to anyone on this thread. | https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/ftdi-be-gone/ | FTDI-be-gone is a USB-to-serial adapter. The RS-232 variant has a DB9M connector on one | end and a micro-B USB connector on the other. The TTL variant has a 6 pin SIP header on the | end opposite the USB connector. Both have two LEDs - a red one to indicate transmitted data | and a green one to indicate received data. | The USB-UART chip is a Cypress Semi CY7C65213. Rather than use a proprietary device | driver to implement the serial port in the host, it relies on CDC class drivers supplied by the | OS. Unrelated - if you know someone who works with clocks, or in other ways has a natural affinity to even per second ticks, https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/crazy-clock/ could be quite a horrible/good present to get them depending on their sense of humour (just bought one for a clock repairing geek friend :-p) David From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 28 08:11:36 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 09:11:36 -0400 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 28, 2021, at 4:23 AM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I noticed this the other day, just in case it's of interest to anyone > on this thread. > > | https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/ftdi-be-gone/ > | FTDI-be-gone is a USB-to-serial adapter. ... Rather than use a > proprietary device > | driver to implement the serial port in the host, it relies on CDC > class drivers supplied by the > | OS. Which OS requires special FTDI drivers? Mac OS certainly does not. paul From abs at absd.org Mon Jun 28 08:22:06 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 14:22:06 +0100 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 14:11, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Jun 28, 2021, at 4:23 AM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > > > > ... > > I noticed this the other day, just in case it's of interest to anyone > > on this thread. > > > > | https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/ftdi-be-gone/ > > | FTDI-be-gone is a USB-to-serial adapter. ... Rather than use a > > proprietary device > > | driver to implement the serial port in the host, it relies on CDC > > class drivers supplied by the > > | OS. > > Which OS requires special FTDI drivers? Mac OS certainly does not. I think he's probably referring to the hugely overinflated BIOS & firmware updating software that most x86 hardware ships with. I've never had the need to connect an FTDI based device to anything other than NetBSD, but I remember reading the horror stories a while back about FTDI Windows drivers trying to brick knock off clone hardware. David From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 28 08:52:11 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 06:52:11 -0700 Subject: VT340 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <098e134d-47e9-b4a1-9fc7-042f6cbc6dd1@comcast.net> <2aa06eb6-1da1-093b-0a02-42ea8bf5fa75@comcast.net> <147f7b52-61db-6d19-8f5b-f20262baf297@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <65aff108-12fb-eb19-d11d-a2c6d24945c4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3F59CD30-8D0B-44C5-965C-F4F696FF0E1E@swri.edu> <2CEE6344-D4BA-4420-9954-45F28AB0B64E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/28/21 6:22 AM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > I think he's probably referring to the hugely overinflated BIOS & > firmware updating software that most x86 hardware ships with. > > I've never had the need to connect an FTDI based device to anything > other than NetBSD, but I remember reading the horror stories a while > back about FTDI Windows drivers trying to brick knock off clone > hardware. Never ran into that; I do use USB-serial dongles using the Prolific chipset and have never had problems with Linux or Windows 7 or XP. FWIW Chuck From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 06:42:41 2021 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:42:41 -0400 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale Message-ID: I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The following things are for sale : 3 Dec decmate computers with kb and monitor. Partway loads into the WP os but the floppy is bad, and i dont have more Sgi tezro Hp 9000 desktop for hp -ux with cables Working microvax 3100 with install of vms. Vt terminal availible for sale too to go with it. Hp 9000 for basic. Was used with test insturments like volt meters, relay controllers hpib etc for process control. Many hp keyboards with chicklet keys availible for this system Tandy vgm 300 monitor Enough crt monitors to sink a boat. Nec, viewsonic, ibm, etc. S100 bus computer chassis with backplane, power supply and proto boards. A single S100 backplane Isa /pci single board computer backplanes Isa 486 and pentium single board computers. Works standalone or with previously mentioned backplane Rackmount 68k vme bus motorolla computer with floppy, hard drive and proto boards. (Must be sold together will not seperate) books for like every version of irix apple early windows maya, power animator, discreet, etc. Sgi install cd sets. Sgi power animator cd. Studio paint. Misc hotmix cd's. Trs 80 model 3. No keyboard. Posts, bad floppy drive hangs up boot. Unplug it and it works. Big / heavy. Dec alphastation 255 computers x3 I had vms on them at some point. Wyse dumb terminal in original box Many televideo dumb terminals Ibm bladecenter h chassis with misc blades and spare fans etc. Shipping will be expensive. Hp 50mhz dual trace scope 54200a. Working apple mac plus with kb and external 20 mb hard drive. No battery damage. Clean. Boots. Runs. Im sure to find more to list. Send some offers my way and ill ship it out. Located in melbourne fl. https://mastodon.technology/@mrbill0/media? Most of my stuff is on my mastadon gallery, welcome to scroll through. I can provide pictures of said machines upon request, too much to take pictures of right now though. --Devin D. From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 29 09:37:21 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:37:21 -0700 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52926398-EA58-440B-8E2D-E9FD477130D8@avanthar.com> Where? Sent from my iPod > On Jun 29, 2021, at 4:42 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The > following things are for sale : > > 3 Dec decmate computers with kb and monitor. Partway loads into the WP os > but the floppy is bad, and i dont have more > > Sgi tezro > > Hp 9000 desktop for hp -ux with cables > > Working microvax 3100 with install of vms. Vt terminal availible for sale > too to go with it. > > Hp 9000 for basic. Was used with test insturments like volt meters, relay > controllers hpib etc for process control. > Many hp keyboards with chicklet keys availible for this system > > Tandy vgm 300 monitor > > Enough crt monitors to sink a boat. Nec, viewsonic, ibm, etc. > > S100 bus computer chassis with backplane, power supply and proto boards. > > A single S100 backplane > > Isa /pci single board computer backplanes > > Isa 486 and pentium single board computers. Works standalone or with > previously mentioned backplane > > Rackmount 68k vme bus motorolla computer with floppy, hard drive and proto > boards. > > (Must be sold together will not seperate) books for like every version of > irix apple early windows maya, power animator, discreet, etc. Sgi install > cd sets. Sgi power animator cd. Studio paint. Misc hotmix cd's. > > Trs 80 model 3. No keyboard. Posts, bad floppy drive hangs up boot. Unplug > it and it works. Big / heavy. > > Dec alphastation 255 computers x3 > I had vms on them at some point. > > Wyse dumb terminal in original box > > Many televideo dumb terminals > > Ibm bladecenter h chassis with misc blades and spare fans etc. Shipping > will be expensive. > > Hp 50mhz dual trace scope 54200a. > > Working apple mac plus with kb and external 20 mb hard drive. No battery > damage. Clean. Boots. Runs. > > Im sure to find more to list. Send some offers my way and ill ship it out. > > Located in melbourne fl. > > https://mastodon.technology/@mrbill0/media? > > Most of my stuff is on my mastadon gallery, welcome to scroll through. I > can provide pictures of said machines upon request, too much to take > pictures of right now though. > > > > --Devin D. From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jun 29 09:38:13 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:38:13 -0700 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: <52926398-EA58-440B-8E2D-E9FD477130D8@avanthar.com> References: <52926398-EA58-440B-8E2D-E9FD477130D8@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2C58B80F-A22F-4AEF-B2F6-2AA251A8F7F0@avanthar.com> Never mind. Florida. Zane Sent from my iPod > On Jun 29, 2021, at 7:37 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > > Where? > > Sent from my iPod > >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 4:42 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: >> >> I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The >> following things are for sale : >> >> 3 Dec decmate computers with kb and monitor. Partway loads into the WP os >> but the floppy is bad, and i dont have more >> >> Sgi tezro >> >> Hp 9000 desktop for hp -ux with cables >> >> Working microvax 3100 with install of vms. Vt terminal availible for sale >> too to go with it. >> >> Hp 9000 for basic. Was used with test insturments like volt meters, relay >> controllers hpib etc for process control. >> Many hp keyboards with chicklet keys availible for this system >> >> Tandy vgm 300 monitor >> >> Enough crt monitors to sink a boat. Nec, viewsonic, ibm, etc. >> >> S100 bus computer chassis with backplane, power supply and proto boards. >> >> A single S100 backplane >> >> Isa /pci single board computer backplanes >> >> Isa 486 and pentium single board computers. Works standalone or with >> previously mentioned backplane >> >> Rackmount 68k vme bus motorolla computer with floppy, hard drive and proto >> boards. >> >> (Must be sold together will not seperate) books for like every version of >> irix apple early windows maya, power animator, discreet, etc. Sgi install >> cd sets. Sgi power animator cd. Studio paint. Misc hotmix cd's. >> >> Trs 80 model 3. No keyboard. Posts, bad floppy drive hangs up boot. Unplug >> it and it works. Big / heavy. >> >> Dec alphastation 255 computers x3 >> I had vms on them at some point. >> >> Wyse dumb terminal in original box >> >> Many televideo dumb terminals >> >> Ibm bladecenter h chassis with misc blades and spare fans etc. Shipping >> will be expensive. >> >> Hp 50mhz dual trace scope 54200a. >> >> Working apple mac plus with kb and external 20 mb hard drive. No battery >> damage. Clean. Boots. Runs. >> >> Im sure to find more to list. Send some offers my way and ill ship it out. >> >> Located in melbourne fl. >> >> https://mastodon.technology/@mrbill0/media? >> >> Most of my stuff is on my mastadon gallery, welcome to scroll through. I >> can provide pictures of said machines upon request, too much to take >> pictures of right now though. >> >> >> >> --Devin D. > From ethan at 757.org Tue Jun 29 09:42:21 2021 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sup man! First Tezro I've ever seen on CCTalk. Fistbump! - Ethan On Tue, 29 Jun 2021, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The > following things are for sale : > > 3 Dec decmate computers with kb and monitor. Partway loads into the WP os > but the floppy is bad, and i dont have more > > Sgi tezro > > Hp 9000 desktop for hp -ux with cables > > Working microvax 3100 with install of vms. Vt terminal availible for sale > too to go with it. > > Hp 9000 for basic. Was used with test insturments like volt meters, relay > controllers hpib etc for process control. > Many hp keyboards with chicklet keys availible for this system > > Tandy vgm 300 monitor > > Enough crt monitors to sink a boat. Nec, viewsonic, ibm, etc. > > S100 bus computer chassis with backplane, power supply and proto boards. > > A single S100 backplane > > Isa /pci single board computer backplanes > > Isa 486 and pentium single board computers. Works standalone or with > previously mentioned backplane > > Rackmount 68k vme bus motorolla computer with floppy, hard drive and proto > boards. > > (Must be sold together will not seperate) books for like every version of > irix apple early windows maya, power animator, discreet, etc. Sgi install > cd sets. Sgi power animator cd. Studio paint. Misc hotmix cd's. > > Trs 80 model 3. No keyboard. Posts, bad floppy drive hangs up boot. Unplug > it and it works. Big / heavy. > > Dec alphastation 255 computers x3 > I had vms on them at some point. > > Wyse dumb terminal in original box > > Many televideo dumb terminals > > Ibm bladecenter h chassis with misc blades and spare fans etc. Shipping > will be expensive. > > Hp 50mhz dual trace scope 54200a. > > Working apple mac plus with kb and external 20 mb hard drive. No battery > damage. Clean. Boots. Runs. > > Im sure to find more to list. Send some offers my way and ill ship it out. > > Located in melbourne fl. > > https://mastodon.technology/@mrbill0/media? > > Most of my stuff is on my mastadon gallery, welcome to scroll through. I > can provide pictures of said machines upon request, too much to take > pictures of right now though. > > > > --Devin D. > -- : Ethan O'Toole From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 11:31:42 2021 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:31:42 -0400 Subject: DEC HP sgi ibm and misc for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First, you're hilarious. Second, can you link some photos of those Televideo terminals? You have quite the collection! =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 7:43 AM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am making room to work on my pdp 11 and mainframe computers. The > following things are for sale : > > 3 Dec decmate computers with kb and monitor. Partway loads into the WP os > but the floppy is bad, and i dont have more > > Sgi tezro > > Hp 9000 desktop for hp -ux with cables > > Working microvax 3100 with install of vms. Vt terminal availible for sale > too to go with it. > > Hp 9000 for basic. Was used with test insturments like volt meters, relay > controllers hpib etc for process control. > Many hp keyboards with chicklet keys availible for this system > > Tandy vgm 300 monitor > > Enough crt monitors to sink a boat. Nec, viewsonic, ibm, etc. > > S100 bus computer chassis with backplane, power supply and proto boards. > > A single S100 backplane > > Isa /pci single board computer backplanes > > Isa 486 and pentium single board computers. Works standalone or with > previously mentioned backplane > > Rackmount 68k vme bus motorolla computer with floppy, hard drive and proto > boards. > > (Must be sold together will not seperate) books for like every version of > irix apple early windows maya, power animator, discreet, etc. Sgi install > cd sets. Sgi power animator cd. Studio paint. Misc hotmix cd's. > > Trs 80 model 3. No keyboard. Posts, bad floppy drive hangs up boot. Unplug > it and it works. Big / heavy. > > Dec alphastation 255 computers x3 > I had vms on them at some point. > > Wyse dumb terminal in original box > > Many televideo dumb terminals > > Ibm bladecenter h chassis with misc blades and spare fans etc. Shipping > will be expensive. > > Hp 50mhz dual trace scope 54200a. > > Working apple mac plus with kb and external 20 mb hard drive. No battery > damage. Clean. Boots. Runs. > > Im sure to find more to list. Send some offers my way and ill ship it out. > > Located in melbourne fl. > > https://mastodon.technology/@mrbill0/media? > > Most of my stuff is on my mastadon gallery, welcome to scroll through. I > can provide pictures of said machines upon request, too much to take > pictures of right now though. > > > > --Devin D. > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 29 12:19:09 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:19:09 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 81, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9add99db-d1f8-fa9e-386e-dd2ac9b3cbb7@bitsavers.org> On 6/29/21 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I miss that machine. I'd love to sim it but the code and schematics are > gone forever. Actually I think CHM has a box of stuff but I can't find a > link to it anymore. > another case where I watch cctalk, and this showed up only in cctech so I only saw it today since I only get digests of cctech https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=adage some has been scanned http://bitsavers.org/pdf/adage From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 29 12:19:09 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:19:09 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 81, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9add99db-d1f8-fa9e-386e-dd2ac9b3cbb7@bitsavers.org> On 6/29/21 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I miss that machine. I'd love to sim it but the code and schematics are > gone forever. Actually I think CHM has a box of stuff but I can't find a > link to it anymore. > another case where I watch cctalk, and this showed up only in cctech so I only saw it today since I only get digests of cctech https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=adage some has been scanned http://bitsavers.org/pdf/adage From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 29 12:21:09 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:21:09 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 81, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: <9add99db-d1f8-fa9e-386e-dd2ac9b3cbb7@bitsavers.org> References: <9add99db-d1f8-fa9e-386e-dd2ac9b3cbb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8fb69053-7b66-4acf-3e25-4511afccc2ad@bitsavers.org> On 6/29/21 10:19 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 6/29/21 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > >> I miss that machine.? I'd love to sim it but the code and schematics are >> gone forever. I offered to help you read the tapes From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 09:44:22 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:44:22 -0400 Subject: Konan The DJ 210 SASI Controller Manual Message-ID: I noticed that there is no copy on bitsavers of the Konan Corp "The DJ 210" SASI Controller OEM Reference Manual so I posted one on my web site: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/Konan_The_DJ_210_SASI.pdf I am not 100% sure, but if I was to guess this info could be applied to repairs for Tandy's and other 5MB hard drives of the era that used the ST506/412 and maybe the Tandon 603S (?) You be the judge, I am not an expert. Bill kennettclassic.com From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jun 30 09:02:15 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:02:15 -0500 Subject: HP DesignJet 600 free for pickup In-Reply-To: <1416515e861d259b0e65f569494d1085.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54fb2385-bc30-a5d8-564d-9c276ea2bd38@ubanproductions.com> <57352e7f-3d2f-76b9-7188-a42a54e5bc8e@figureeightbrewing.com> <1416515e861d259b0e65f569494d1085.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <1a7691a4-9855-a816-9150-dc3611fd8b7a@figureeightbrewing.com> I have a HP DesignJet 600, in good shape, with a roll of paper, free for pickup in Valparaiso, IN. --tom