From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 00:18:23 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 01:18:23 -0400 Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? Message-ID: I'm in the middle of imaging a set of 5 1/4" diskettes from 1988 containing the Interpress conformance test suite. My plan is to - convert the MS-DOS backup format images to files (trivial) - find interpress to postscript converter to print the files. - compare them to the reference pictures to verify I got them all. The third part is the hard one. I believe there was a document to go along with the images, so you could verify they printed as expected. I don't think I have that any more. I'm looking for pointers to an online copy. My search has come up empty. Of course, the alternative is if someone has an interpress printer. We could just print them. Perhaps Curious Marc has one alongside the Alto? From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 00:22:19 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 01:22:19 -0400 Subject: DEC pin In-Reply-To: <47C91433-E6AE-4559-A81C-9E26C55C0A58@gmail.com> References: <49A67485-30AB-454E-9F9A-166A782509FC@fritzm.org> <47C91433-E6AE-4559-A81C-9E26C55C0A58@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:34 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?ll blame it on Kyle and Fritz, I could not resist? > > https://curiousmarcs-store.creator-spring.com/listing/VAXinated > > Marc > > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 17:50 Fritz Mueller via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682110 If the CHM wants trade show SWAG, I have a whole bunch I am trying to find homes for. People were especially curious about the Covad buttons, but no one wanted to touch it. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOI-EbI0NHaih8_iw7sK1PAciEyE8JG1stlpxlqf_SM8OOZpt_R9rEVh8a3m_w5xw?key=VElOUkgzVDNQc3BlbUlUMkZzVUJaUXM5NkFOVWlR > Timely! > > --FritzM. > > Thank you! It was a hard thing to search for. I kept getting all of these > other results, for some odd reason... "Did you mean...?" No, actually I > didn't! > > Kyle > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 1 00:25:28 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 22:25:28 -0700 Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f9049a8-6bd0-cac1-8230-4032abb2ddee@bitsavers.org> On 3/31/21 10:18 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > I'm in the middle of imaging a set of 5 1/4" diskettes from 1988 > containing the Interpress conformance test suite. > My plan is to > - convert the MS-DOS backup format images to files (trivial) > - find interpress to postscript converter to print the files. > - compare them to the reference pictures to verify I got them all. > > The third part is the hard one. I believe there was a document to go along > with the images, so you could verify they printed as expected. I don't > think I have that any more. I'm looking for pointers to an online copy. My > search has come up empty. > > Of course, the alternative is if someone has an interpress printer. We > could just print them. Perhaps Curious Marc has one alongside the Alto? > Interpress had nothing to do with the Alto Talk to Paul McJones re. Interpress translation From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Apr 1 00:28:26 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 22:28:26 -0700 Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In a quick search I found this... PostScript and Interpress: a comparison http://www.mostlycolor.ch/2010/07/postscript-and-interpress-comparison.html Seems the first printer was referred to "Dover"? Don Resor N6KAW -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tony Aiuto via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? I'm in the middle of imaging a set of 5 1/4" diskettes from 1988 containing the Interpress conformance test suite. My plan is to - convert the MS-DOS backup format images to files (trivial) - find interpress to postscript converter to print the files. - compare them to the reference pictures to verify I got them all. The third part is the hard one. I believe there was a document to go along with the images, so you could verify they printed as expected. I don't think I have that any more. I'm looking for pointers to an online copy. My search has come up empty. Of course, the alternative is if someone has an interpress printer. We could just print them. Perhaps Curious Marc has one alongside the Alto? From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Apr 1 00:37:09 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 22:37:09 -0700 Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the Dover.... https://techonomy.com/2013/04/next-trick-for-laser-printers-building-electronic-devices/ A few more images here: https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/input-output/14/351/1657 Where Marc might find room for one of these monstrosities I don't know. I believe it's the same physical dimensions as a Xerox 2400? https://xeroxnostalgia.com/category/2400/ Don Resor N6KAW -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of D. Resor via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:28 PM To: 'Tony Aiuto' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Any Interpress fans out there? In a quick search I found this... PostScript and Interpress: a comparison http://www.mostlycolor.ch/2010/07/postscript-and-interpress-comparison.html Seems the first printer was referred to "Dover"? Don Resor N6KAW -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tony Aiuto via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? I'm in the middle of imaging a set of 5 1/4" diskettes from 1988 containing the Interpress conformance test suite. My plan is to - convert the MS-DOS backup format images to files (trivial) - find interpress to postscript converter to print the files. - compare them to the reference pictures to verify I got them all. The third part is the hard one. I believe there was a document to go along with the images, so you could verify they printed as expected. I don't think I have that any more. I'm looking for pointers to an online copy. My search has come up empty. Of course, the alternative is if someone has an interpress printer. We could just print them. Perhaps Curious Marc has one alongside the Alto? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 1 00:52:33 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 22:52:33 -0700 Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/31/21 10:37 PM, John Q Clueless via cctalk wrote: > Here is the Dover.... Dover was not an Interpress printer From organlists1 at sonic.net Thu Apr 1 01:08:24 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 23:08:24 -0700 Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did not say it was.... The Dover was a SLOT (Scanned Laser Output Terminal) using the EARS protocol (Ethernet, Alto, Research character generator, Scanned laser output terminal). The Dover Laser Printer however was used with the Xerox Alto. Was the 9700 the first Xerox Interpress Laser printer, I don't know. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:53 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Any Interpress fans out there? On 3/31/21 10:37 PM, John Q Clueless via cctalk wrote: > Here is the Dover.... Dover was not an Interpress printer From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 11:35:56 2021 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 12:35:56 -0400 Subject: IBM cpu tear down In-Reply-To: References: <7873F26E-D2F6-4274-99A7-C62F15134C18@2k.ca> Message-ID: Welp, there went an hour of billable time... =D -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 12:56 AM D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > I thought I had seen this before... > > EEVblog teardown of a ES9000 processor. > > https://youtu.be/xQ3oJlt4GrI > > Don Resor > N6KAW > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Kevin Lee via > cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 9:15 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM cpu tear down > > https://www.righto.com/2021/03/logic-chip-teardown-from-vintage-ibm.html > > Enjoy. > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 1 12:36:24 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 18:36:24 +0100 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows Message-ID: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> I am hesitant to post this because I don't want to start a massive debate, but what Newsreader programs do people use on Windows? I don't want to use Google Groups because it wants me to sign in to Google. I am generally reluctant to use a browser based reader because it will want to track me. So I am after an installable client. Thanks Rob From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Apr 1 12:41:31 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 10:41:31 -0700 Subject: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005701d7271e$414d3500$c3e79f00$@net> > > I don't want to use Google Groups because it wants me to sign in to > Google. > I am generally reluctant to use a browser based reader because it will > want > to track me. So I am after an installable client. Back in the day I used Forte Agent. It is still in development. -Ali From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 1 12:47:11 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 10:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 2021, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am hesitant to post this because I don't want to start a massive debate, > but what Newsreader programs do people use on Windows? > Rob, you might want to give Xananews a shot. https://github.com/graemeg/xananews g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 1 12:58:39 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 13:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? Message-ID: <20210401175839.75CF418C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > Dover was not an Interpress printer Yeah, it used Press format. BTW, here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/s2/press.c is the program from our V6 Unix machine to produce PRESS format files for the MIT Dover. (.v was the format for the Varian printer, a poor man's XGP, but which had finer resolution; our copy of troff had been hacked to produce .v format output.) Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Apr 1 13:15:07 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 12:15:07 -0600 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 4/1/21 11:36 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > what Newsreader programs do people use on Windows? I run Linux, so I don't have first hand experience with news readers on Windows. But I do know that people use the following: - Gravity (S.G. is updating it at GRC; https://www.grc.com/discussions.htm) - Thunderbird (I use this on Linux) - Xnews (I think?) I know that there are a lot more GUI options on Windows than there are on Linux. There is probably also the option of using the TUI news readers in / via Windows Services for Linux (?is that the proper name for /today/?). -- Grant. . . . unix || die From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Apr 1 13:51:30 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 11:51:30 -0700 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00D71D17-B134-4B45-9D1A-C91905BA9D04@avanthar.com> > On Apr 1, 2021, at 11:15 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > - Gravity (S.G. is updating it at GRC; https://www.grc.com/discussions.htm) > - Thunderbird (I use this on Linux) > - Xnews (I think?) Sadly ?Xnews" for Windows hasn?t been updated in 15 years, it was pretty good when I was using it for a short while. It?s old enough now that it?s ontopic for this list, if you use the lists original definition of ?classic?, which was more than 10 years old. I like ?Unison? on the Mac side, but it?s another one that hasn?t seen an update in years. On UNIX, I?ve been using ?tin" for nearly 30 years. At this point, I wouldn?t recommend trying to read USENET on OpenVMS, there are a couple readers, but they?re even older than ?Xnews?. I?m not sure what?s currently available for AmigaOS, TOS, RiscOS, or Haiku (BeOS). Did USENET news readers exist for IBM Mainframes? Zane From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 17:01:27 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 23:01:27 +0100 Subject: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <59bb01d72742$91604810$b420d830$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 01 April 2021 18:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows > > I am hesitant to post this because I don't want to start a massive debate, but > what Newsreader programs do people use on Windows? > I use Thunderbird. It seems pretty competent once you have configured the tool bars. There is OE Classic which I havn't tried. https://www.oeclassic.com/ but it seems like it might be usable... > I don't want to use Google Groups because it wants me to sign in to Google. > I am generally reluctant to use a browser based reader because it will want to > track me. So I am after an installable client. > Worse than that, its not a great news reader. It doesn't carry some news groups because they have been spammed, usually via google groups. > > Thanks > > Rob Dave W From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Apr 1 17:55:13 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 16:55:13 -0600 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <00D71D17-B134-4B45-9D1A-C91905BA9D04@avanthar.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> <00D71D17-B134-4B45-9D1A-C91905BA9D04@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <809d770c-b843-b91e-af4b-08925d680133@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/1/21 12:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > Did USENET news readers exist for IBM Mainframes? I don't know. Spending time reading Usenet (sometimes of questionable value) on a system that frequently charged for access seems counterproductive to me. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 19:54:10 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 17:54:10 -0700 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:57 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/31/21 9:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > I think MMJ connectors are still available; L-Com comes to mind as a source. Or perhaps Digikey or similar distributors. That would let you make your own. Crimp dies might be a little harder, though an RJ-45 crimp tool might be able to do the job. > > Crimpers for MMJ are as available as ever. Not cheap, but then, they > never were. An RJ45 dies will not work on an MMJ plug. > A couple years back you could buy a DEC H8220 bag of 50 MMJ connectors from Vnetek for around $15. I bought a few bags of 50 connectors at the time. As far as I know Vnetek Communications had acquired the rights to DECserver products, and might have previously operated as Digital Networks. Unfortunately Vnetek Communications appears to have disappeared without a trace a while ago. If you want to make up a large number of MMJ cables using some original DECconnect cable, here is a listing of a 1000ft spool of original DEC H8240 cable. Some people have bought some of those spools and reported that they are original DECconnect branded cable: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162291819594 You used to be able to buy a Paladin (then Greenlee, then Tempo?) PA8035 CrimpALL tool which included the PA2067 MMJ die. You can still find the PA8000 CrimpALL tool without a die, but the PA2067 MMJ die was discontinued a while ago and doesn't appear easy to find now. I bought a PA8035 back when I bought the MMJ connectors. Never got around to building up any MMJ cables yet, I already have enough original cables on hand for now. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Apr 1 23:34:52 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 21:34:52 -0700 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <809d770c-b843-b91e-af4b-08925d680133@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> <00D71D17-B134-4B45-9D1A-C91905BA9D04@avanthar.com> <809d770c-b843-b91e-af4b-08925d680133@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <52F1E7A4-0996-4C62-9549-A1B3A74EFA81@avanthar.com> > On Apr 1, 2021, at 3:55 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/1/21 12:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> Did USENET news readers exist for IBM Mainframes? > > I don't know. > > Spending time reading Usenet (sometimes of questionable value) on a system that frequently charged for access seems counterproductive to me. Considering my original USENET access was at $6 per hour, I?m not entirely sure I agree. :-) Then again that?s also why we used to be able to download and upload messages for offline reading. Zane From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 23:55:17 2021 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 23:55:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <52F1E7A4-0996-4C62-9549-A1B3A74EFA81@avanthar.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> <00D71D17-B134-4B45-9D1A-C91905BA9D04@avanthar.com> <809d770c-b843-b91e-af4b-08925d680133@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <52F1E7A4-0996-4C62-9549-A1B3A74EFA81@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <6ab4b835-1c98-f5ca-03e3-f2c38d5c8610@gmail.com> Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Apr 1, 2021, at 3:55 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/1/21 12:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> Did USENET news readers exist for IBM Mainframes? >> I don't know. >> >> Spending time reading Usenet (sometimes of questionable value) on a system that frequently charged for access seems counterproductive to me. > > Considering my original USENET access was at $6 per hour, I?m not entirely sure I agree. :-) Then again that?s also why we used to be able to download and upload messages for offline reading. > > Zane > My USENET reading in the late 80's and early 90's was crucial to my development as a numerical scientist, way before there were other venues.? At the time, one would "download" packages from NETLIB by sending an email with the right commands to the NETLIB mail server and would receive an email with pure-ascii-encoded files... additionally to the comp.sources* hyerarchy...? and I recall that many of the people in this list posted back then. carlos. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 06:52:21 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 07:52:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <52F1E7A4-0996-4C62-9549-A1B3A74EFA81@avanthar.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> <00D71D17-B134-4B45-9D1A-C91905BA9D04@avanthar.com> <809d770c-b843-b91e-af4b-08925d680133@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <52F1E7A4-0996-4C62-9549-A1B3A74EFA81@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 4/2/21 12:34 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Apr 1, 2021, at 3:55 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/1/21 12:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> Did USENET news readers exist for IBM Mainframes? >> >> I don't know. >> >> Spending time reading Usenet (sometimes of questionable value) on a system that frequently charged for access seems counterproductive to me. > > > Considering my original USENET access was at $6 per hour, I?m not entirely sure I agree. :-) Then again that?s also why we used to be able to download and upload messages for offline reading. > > Zane > > IBM Mainframes were on BITNET which had discussion groups just like USENET and were crossposted between BITNET and USENET. Thus the groups we still have with little if any traffic in the "bit" hierarchy. bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Apr 2 11:26:48 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 10:26:48 -0600 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <52F1E7A4-0996-4C62-9549-A1B3A74EFA81@avanthar.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> <00D71D17-B134-4B45-9D1A-C91905BA9D04@avanthar.com> <809d770c-b843-b91e-af4b-08925d680133@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <52F1E7A4-0996-4C62-9549-A1B3A74EFA81@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7fc957c1-f15a-9f1a-b996-fbc4fc2acc38@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/1/21 10:34 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > Considering my original USENET access was at $6 per hour, I?m not > entirely sure I agree. :-) ?Then again that?s also why we used to be > able to download and upload messages for offline reading. I was referring to being connected while reading. Seeing as how dumb terminals / emulators couldn't do anything without being connected, you had to pay while reading. Downloading messages for offline reading without being connected is contrary to the quintessential mainframe as I understand it throughout the 90s. Yes, people paid for access to Usenet. But that's not the same thing as paying for screen time to read. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 11:53:51 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 16:53:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ References: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> ?Google?Shopping?shows?the?PA2067?MMJ?die?available?at?3?online?stores.?Digi-Key?lists?it?too. What?are?the?pros?and?cons?of?the?die?and?a?PA8000?CrimpALL,?versus?the?IEC?tool?(?https://iec.net/product/modular-crimp-tool-for-rj11-dec-mmj-connectors/)???If?one?either?already?has?an?RJ45?crimp?tool;?or?doesn't?have?any?crimping?tool?at?all? From trash80 at internode.on.net Fri Apr 2 19:56:24 2021 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 11:56:24 +1100 Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs Message-ID: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> If there is anyone on the list familiar with scanners I'd be most grateful for some advice please. Some time ago I bought a HP 8270 sheet feed (full duplex) scanner NOS. I wanted to digitise a whole heap of old computer documentation and for a little while I've been working through the big heap of stuff. But for quite some time I've had an issue with scans that go through the sheet feeder (irrespective of whether I do them double sided or not). Basically the problem is that anything that goes via the sheet feeder has issues with "streaks" in the document whereas anything done on the flat bed is perfect (I have some links to some examples below). By way of clarity, anything done on the flatbed the lamp traverses the flat bed to do the scan. For sheet fed items the lamp is moved to specific slot on the scanner and the sheet feeder takes over wrapping the document past the lamp. Given that flat bed scans are OK I don't think its an issue with the lamp. I've done the following things to try to resolve the issue with no joy: * Checked for any specific settings * Tried doing scans in grayscale * Tried increasing the resolution (default is 300dpi) to slow the speed that the document is fed through the feeder. According to HP the issue is a cleanliness one i.e. dirt on the glass can cause reflections. I've followed their instructions for cleaning the glass but still no joy. Flatbed example. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYiFzERiZiaq7-WoTiQ2eIzITn6giviR/view?usp=s haring Sheet feed example. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WF4SHbwV3bVET_bzwIUiULywbCGZBf_V/view?usp=s haring Thank you!!! Kevin Parker From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Apr 2 20:13:22 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:13:22 -0600 Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs In-Reply-To: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> References: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 4/2/21 6:56 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > If there is anyone on the list familiar with scanners I'd be most > grateful for some advice please. I'm definitely not an expert. But I have opinions. > Some time ago I bought a HP 8270 sheet feed (full duplex) scanner > NOS. I wanted to digitise a whole heap of old computer documentation > and for a little while I've been working through the big heap of > stuff. But for quite some time I've had an issue with scans that go > through the sheet feeder (irrespective of whether I do them double > sided or not). Basically the problem is that anything that goes via > the sheet feeder has issues with "streaks" in the document whereas > anything done on the flat bed is perfect (I have some links to some > examples below). The thing that smacks me in the face is the difference in -- what I think is called -- the white balance. It may be that the white balance is /so/ /far/ /off/ for the sheet feeder that things can't compensate and you're into the realm of sensors interpreting noise differently between adjacent pixels. It's almost as if the different horizontal pixels have different levels of sensitivity or are being over driven such that they can't compensate. I really notice it on the right hand side of the black canted center window and the blue in the upper left window. It's noticeable in in the text fade out in the lower left window too. > By way of clarity, anything done on the flatbed the lamp traverses > the flat bed to do the scan. For sheet fed items the lamp is moved to > specific slot on the scanner and the sheet feeder takes over wrapping > the document past the lamp. Given that flat bed scans are OK I don't > think its an issue with the lamp. When I looked at the flat bed scan first, I didn't see anything wrong. Then I noticed the 2nd link. ;-) > I've done the following things to try to resolve the issue with no joy: > > * Checked for any specific settings > * Tried doing scans in grayscale > * Tried increasing the resolution (default is 300dpi) to slow the > speed that the document is fed through the feeder. The only time that I've ever had anything scan weird, even remotely like your sheet feed example, is when the item to be scanned isn't /close/ /enough/ to the scanning surface. E.g. the middle spine / gutter (?terms?) of a book / magazine that I can't lay completely flat on the scanner. It sounds like the sheet feeder may be part of the lid and that it can be lifted / moved away from the scanning bed. As such, I'll suggest making sure that the lid / sheet feed scanner is properly closed and not gaping in any way. > According to HP the issue is a cleanliness one i.e. dirt on the glass > can cause reflections. I've followed their instructions for cleaning > the glass but still no joy. Based on how the flatbed example looks, I don't think that it's a dirt issue. Unless there is another piece of glass that is between the flatbed as part of the body of the sheet feeder that needs to be cleaned. > Flatbed example. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYiFzERiZiaq7-WoTiQ2eIzITn6giviR/view?usp=sharing That looks really good to me. > Sheet feed example. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WF4SHbwV3bVET_bzwIUiULywbCGZBf_V/view?usp=sharing Oy vey! > Thank you!!! Good luck. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dan at quakka.com Fri Apr 2 20:24:40 2021 From: dan at quakka.com (Dan MacMillan) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 18:24:40 -0700 Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs In-Reply-To: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> References: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <2FF958A6-D153-4454-91E8-254AF1BEBD3D@quakka.com> Hi Kevin, I have a multi-function printer scanner that has a similar problem when it needs to be cleaned. This link explains the problem and how to fix it. Maybe your issue is similar. https://help.brother-usa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/62055/~/black-vertical-lines-when-copying-or-scanning Good luck, -Dan > On Apr 2, 2021, at 5:56 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > If there is anyone on the list familiar with scanners I'd be most grateful > for some advice please. > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 2 20:34:55 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:34:55 -0500 Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs In-Reply-To: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> References: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <6067C63F.10200@pico-systems.com> On 04/02/2021 07:56 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > If there is anyone on the list familiar with scanners I'd be most grateful > for some advice please. > > Some time ago I bought a HP 8270 sheet feed (full duplex) scanner NOS. I > wanted to digitise a whole heap of old computer documentation and for a > little while I've been working through the big heap of stuff. But for quite > some time I've had an issue with scans that go through the sheet feeder > (irrespective of whether I do them double sided or not). Basically the > problem is that anything that goes via the sheet feeder has issues with > "streaks" in the document whereas anything done on the flat bed is perfect > (I have some links to some examples below). > > By way of clarity, anything done on the flatbed the lamp traverses the flat > bed to do the scan. For sheet fed items the lamp is moved to specific slot > on the scanner and the sheet feeder takes over wrapping the document past > the lamp. Given that flat bed scans are OK I don't think its an issue with > the lamp. > > I've done the following things to try to resolve the issue with no joy: > > * Checked for any specific settings > * Tried doing scans in grayscale > * Tried increasing the resolution (default is 300dpi) to slow the speed that > the document is fed through the feeder. > > According to HP the issue is a cleanliness one i.e. dirt on the glass can > cause reflections. I've followed their instructions for cleaning the glass > but still no joy. > > Flatbed example. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYiFzERiZiaq7-WoTiQ2eIzITn6giviR/view?usp=s > haring > > Sheet feed example. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WF4SHbwV3bVET_bzwIUiULywbCGZBf_V/view?usp=s > haring > > When in flatbed mode, there is probably a foam mat that presses the document firmly onto the glass plate, even if the page has a warp or curl to it. To prevent jamming, the sheet feeder probably leaves the page loose, and if warped or stiff, it won't press flat to the glass. There may be something you can adjust to get the page to be closer to the glass, but not so tight that it prevents the page from moving. That might be a delicate balance. But, I can sure see how a page that is several mm away from the glass could get reflections that wash out the details. There may be a damaged stop somewhere that sets the clearance between whatever conveys the page and the glass, or maybe even a missing belt or pad that holds the page close to the glass. The difference is QUITE obvious, almost making the sheet-fed scan worthless. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Apr 2 20:53:26 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 01:53:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs In-Reply-To: <6067C63F.10200@pico-systems.com> References: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> <6067C63F.10200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <465206595.462050.1617414806628@mail.yahoo.com> how? fast is? scanner??ed#??In a message dated 4/2/2021 6:35:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? On 04/02/2021 07:56 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > If there is anyone on the list familiar with scanners I'd be most grateful > for some advice please. > > Some time ago I bought a HP 8270 sheet feed (full duplex) scanner NOS. I > wanted to digitise a whole heap of old computer documentation and for a > little while I've been working through the big heap of stuff. But for quite > some time I've had an issue with scans that go through the sheet feeder > (irrespective of whether I do them double sided or not). Basically the > problem is that anything that goes via the sheet feeder has issues with > "streaks" in the document whereas anything done on the flat bed is perfect > (I have some links to some examples below). > > By way of clarity, anything done on the flatbed the lamp traverses the flat > bed to do the scan. For sheet fed items the lamp is moved to specific slot > on the scanner and the sheet feeder takes over wrapping the document past > the lamp. Given that flat bed scans are OK I don't think its an issue with > the lamp. > > I've done the following things to try to resolve the issue with no joy: > > * Checked for any specific settings > * Tried doing scans in grayscale > * Tried increasing the resolution (default is 300dpi) to slow the speed that > the document is fed through the feeder. > > According to HP the issue is a cleanliness one i.e. dirt on the glass can > cause reflections. I've followed their instructions for cleaning the glass > but still no joy. > > Flatbed? example. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYiFzERiZiaq7-WoTiQ2eIzITn6giviR/view?usp=s > haring > > Sheet feed example. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WF4SHbwV3bVET_bzwIUiULywbCGZBf_V/view?usp=s > haring > > When in flatbed mode, there is probably a foam mat that presses the document firmly onto the glass plate, even if the page has a warp or curl to it.? To prevent jamming, the sheet feeder probably leaves the page loose, and if warped or stiff, it won't press flat to the glass.? There may be something you can adjust to get the page to be closer to the glass, but not so tight that it prevents the page from moving.? That might be a delicate balance.? But, I can sure see how a page that is several mm away from the glass could get reflections that wash out the details. There may be a damaged stop somewhere that sets the clearance between whatever conveys the page and the glass, or maybe even a missing belt or pad that holds the page close to the glass. The difference is QUITE obvious, almost making the sheet-fed scan worthless. Jon? From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Apr 2 23:27:20 2021 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:27:20 +1100 Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs In-Reply-To: <052b01d72824$2b91fb40$82b5f1c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20210403152720.00e34558@mail.optusnet.com.au> Hi Kevin, Are you _sure_ the two modes use the same optical sensor? Often sheet feed systems use a different sensor somewhere along the paper path. I suspect they are not, given the odd colour pattering off the top edge of the paper, on the autofeed image. If those two images are definitely produced by the same sensor, through the same glass, then there are a few other possibilities: * A 'mode settings' problem. Scanners always have a bunch of modes, such as photo vs printed, sensitivity adjustment curve, gamma correction, etc. It may be your machine uses different settings for flatbed vs page feeder, and the page feeder settings are _way_off_. * Keeping the paper flat on the glass. Someone else pointed this out - maybe the sheet feed process uses rollers and the paper is bowing away from the glass in those two really bad wide streaks. But there are other problems too, because there are fine streaks as well. * Another thing scanners do, is calibrate the sensor using a standard white/black image bar, usually behind one end of the flatbed bezel. The sensor always has imperfections, but subtracting the observed calibration data results in a clean image. (Ideally, sometimes not.) Maybe your machine uses separate calibration datasets in the two modes, and the one for autofeed is rooted. Download a manual and read. There are defects in your 'good' flatbed image too - for eg the bleed-through of the orange lettering on the other side of the sheet. The way to correct that is to use a black, highly light absorbent backing sheet. Eg black velvet. But you probably can't do that on your scanner. This defect is typical of scans done by people with little discernment for image quality. They don't even notice. Then there are fundamental defects common to both images: * You've used PDF as the end format. As a result the image is stored in lossy JPG coding, and thus has typical JPG edge noise. PDF does not allow any sensible image coding scheme such as PNG. Just a few old ones: JPG (OK for photos, but awful for any image with fine detail and hard edges), TIFF (lossless but very inefficient), the horrible 'Fax mode' (B&W, in which the captured data is stored losslessly, but the capture process is horrifically lossy and destructive of image quality.) Plus another abortion called JBIG2. ( A patch tokenization scheme that is so bad it should be illegal.) * The originals are screened printing, where all tones are created by varying the size of saturated YMCB ink dots laid in a regular grid. To scan this kind of document adequately, you HAVE to scan at high enough resolution to resolve the edges of the tiny dots (the only way to avoid obnoxious moire patterning), then post-process the image to convert (blur) the screen grid dots to smooth colour shading (still at very high resolution) then scale the image to a desired final size. Then lastly change the image encoding to a suitable (lossless) form (eg one of the PNG modes) for sane file size. This is still unavoidably a manual page-by-page process if you want archival quality. And PDF flatly doesn't allow it. Once you realize this is so, you'll become very depressed about all the people who think they are 'saving worthy documents for posterity' by scanning them into PDF. Your images still contain remnants of the screening dots pattern, but messed up by JPG artefacting. Thus the file size is stupidly high due to all the superfluous and messy fine detail. Zoom right in to see it. Sorry to not be very helpfull, Guy At 11:56 AM 3/04/2021 +1100, you wrote: >If there is anyone on the list familiar with scanners I'd be most grateful >for some advice please. > >Some time ago I bought a HP 8270 sheet feed (full duplex) scanner NOS. I >wanted to digitise a whole heap of old computer documentation and for a >little while I've been working through the big heap of stuff. But for quite >some time I've had an issue with scans that go through the sheet feeder >(irrespective of whether I do them double sided or not). Basically the >problem is that anything that goes via the sheet feeder has issues with >"streaks" in the document whereas anything done on the flat bed is perfect >(I have some links to some examples below). > >By way of clarity, anything done on the flatbed the lamp traverses the flat >bed to do the scan. For sheet fed items the lamp is moved to specific slot >on the scanner and the sheet feeder takes over wrapping the document past >the lamp. Given that flat bed scans are OK I don't think its an issue with >the lamp. > >I've done the following things to try to resolve the issue with no joy: > >* Checked for any specific settings >* Tried doing scans in grayscale >* Tried increasing the resolution (default is 300dpi) to slow the speed that >the document is fed through the feeder. > >According to HP the issue is a cleanliness one i.e. dirt on the glass can >cause reflections. I've followed their instructions for cleaning the glass >but still no joy. > >Flatbed example. > >https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYiFzERiZiaq7-WoTiQ2eIzITn6giviR/view?usp=s >haring > >Sheet feed example. > >https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WF4SHbwV3bVET_bzwIUiULywbCGZBf_V/view?usp=s >haring > >Thank you!!! > > > >Kevin Parker > > > From paul at mcjones.org Fri Apr 2 18:07:18 2021 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 16:07:18 -0700 Subject: Any Interpress fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 1, 2021, at 10:00 AM,Al Kossow > wrote: > > > Interpress had nothing to do with the Alto > > Talk to Paul McJones re. Interpress translation I included Press-to-{PostScript,PDF} conversion in the program that generated http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org, but I don?t have any code for Interpress. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Apr 3 01:19:12 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 00:19:12 -0600 Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20210403152720.00e34558@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20210403152720.00e34558@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3ce5efe5-a918-634b-fc0b-fe9329494824@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/2/21 10:27 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > There are defects in your 'good' flatbed image too - for eg the > bleed-through of the orange lettering on the other side of the > sheet. The way to correct that is to use a black, highly light > absorbent backing sheet. Eg black velvet. Hum. Why do so many scanners come with glossy white (usually on foam) backing to hold the image down? I'm questioning why they do that, not your recommendation. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lproven at gmail.com Sat Apr 3 07:55:43 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 14:55:43 +0200 Subject: Video presentations on 2 interesting OSes for vintage kit Message-ID: Minerva and SMSQ/E, both related to Sinclair QDOS, the original OS for the Sinclair QL. https://youtu.be/yU0ptNyNqcI And EmuTOS, a FOSS recreation of Atari TOS & GEM, which reached v1.0 about 6 months ago. https://youtu.be/eqrM4TE5jTM I knew about the 1st 2, but this video taught me a lot. It's an insular community and most materials are aimed at people who already know about it. I wrote a blog post to explain a bit of the history and context: https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/78738.html Found via the m68k.info community: https://m68k.info/#sinclairql:video:SMSQE:mar2021 Which in turn I found when I asked if there were any 16-bit homebrew computers out there and learned of the Kiwi 68K: https://www.ist-schlau.de/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From compoobah at gmail.com Sat Apr 3 09:11:40 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 07:11:40 -0700 Subject: IBM cpu tear down In-Reply-To: References: <7873F26E-D2F6-4274-99A7-C62F15134C18@2k.ca> Message-ID: <54d063617285432546e16f43656dbe4716d853a6.camel@gmail.com> On Wed, 2021-03-31 at 21:56 -0700, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > I thought I had seen this before... > > EEVblog teardown of a ES9000 processor. > > https://youtu.be/xQ3oJlt4GrI > Is that a similar package to what the CMOS POWER-2 used? I think I have one somewhere but never tore into the MCM package. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Apr 3 10:59:42 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:59:42 -0300 Subject: IBM cpu tear down In-Reply-To: <54d063617285432546e16f43656dbe4716d853a6.camel@gmail.com> References: <7873F26E-D2F6-4274-99A7-C62F15134C18@2k.ca> <54d063617285432546e16f43656dbe4716d853a6.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9b6c3cc9-e4a4-1e6e-04f6-165adcba7742@gmail.com> On 2021-04-03 11:11 a.m., Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2021-03-31 at 21:56 -0700, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: >> I thought I had seen this before... >> >> EEVblog teardown of a ES9000 processor. >> >> https://youtu.be/xQ3oJlt4GrI >> > Is that a similar package to what the CMOS POWER-2 used? I think I have > one somewhere but never tore into the MCM package. > > BY CMOS POWER-2 are you referring to the processor used in the high end second generation RS/6000 systems?? If so then no, like the ES9000 module the chips are mounted on a ceramic substrate. But in RS/6000 processor the chips sat in a shallow well in the ceramic.? I seem to recall that the well is filled with oil and a metal lid bonded to the edges of the ceramic.? the metal lid was the surface the heat sink was fastened to with a layer of thermally conductive oil between.? I opened one up one time but I no linger know where it is. Paul. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Apr 3 17:54:56 2021 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 08:54:56 +1000 Subject: SOT: Scanning old computer docs In-Reply-To: <3ce5efe5-a918-634b-fc0b-fe9329494824@spamtrap.tnetconsulti ng.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210403152720.00e34558@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20210403152720.00e34558@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20210404085456.0170df18@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:19 AM 3/04/2021 -0600, you wrote: >On 4/2/21 10:27 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> There are defects in your 'good' flatbed image too - for eg the >> bleed-through of the orange lettering on the other side of the >> sheet. The way to correct that is to use a black, highly light >> absorbent backing sheet. Eg black velvet. > >Hum. > >Why do so many scanners come with glossy white (usually on foam) backing >to hold the image down? > >I'm questioning why they do that, not your recommendation. I think it is a combination of habit, and marketting/customer expectations. People intuitively expect the white backing, and for many scanning tasks it is preferable. Yet for scanning anything printed on both sides of thin paper, it's a real problem. I have a sheet of matt black plastic, and some black velvet cloth for this. The plastic is easier to use, but the velvet works better for really thin paper with a lot of visual bleed through. The more light absorbent the better. If I ever find a sheet of 'vanta black' (new light absorbent substance, very close to 100%, look it up) I'll be using that. That's not the only 'strange & unfortunate lack' in typical scanners. Another is that the raised plastic bezel goes all the way round the glass, rather than having at least one of the glass long sides be flat right to the edge, with the scanner sensor also going very close to the edge. This is needed for scanning sheets larger than the bed, and also very essential for scanning pages of books that are too thick to allow getting any page flat on the typical scanner bed. There are special 'edge scanners' that allow this - draping the book over the side of the scanner, so one page can be fully flat on the glass. They cost _much_ more than normal scanners. And yet the actual construction has very little that would cost more to manufacture. Construction is just arranged a little differently. The higher cost is another case of 'marketting.' Guy From macro at orcam.me.uk Sat Apr 3 18:23:24 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 01:23:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 2021, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > There is probably also the option of using the TUI news readers in / via > Windows Services for Linux (?is that the proper name for /today/?). I have never used that port myself, but there's PC-Alpine worth considering, which I believe uses native Windows networking services and also has a classic touch to it. Compilation instructions are here: , or check: or: for 64-bit and 32-bit x86 binaries respectively (checksums are published at ). Naturally it handles both e-mail and news, and you can cross-post if you feel like. FWIW, Maciej From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sun Apr 4 03:41:06 2021 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:41:06 +0100 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I kind of wrote my own. I sign my BBS up to the usenet groups I want to read and it treats them like message boards... Not exactly Windows (more like Linux) but it's what I use ON Windows to read Usenet. On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 at 00:23, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 1 Apr 2021, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > There is probably also the option of using the TUI news readers in / via > > Windows Services for Linux (?is that the proper name for /today/?). > > I have never used that port myself, but there's PC-Alpine worth > considering, which I believe uses native Windows networking services and > also has a classic touch to it. Compilation instructions are here: > , or > check: or: > for > 64-bit and 32-bit x86 binaries respectively (checksums are published at > ). > > Naturally it handles both e-mail and news, and you can cross-post if you > feel like. > > FWIW, > > Maciej > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun Apr 4 12:31:03 2021 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 10:31:03 -0700 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: You can make a pretty nice native command line environment on Windows with ?Windows Terminal? from Microsoft and the Chocolatey package manager (which is like homebrew for Mac or similar to apt for Debian). There is also WSL which lets you run a native Linux distro in a fairly integrated way. If you are into all that tin might be a good choice. Otherwise I have had good luck with Thunderbird as a Usenet client on any platform it is available. Regards, Kevin On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 10:36 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am hesitant to post this because I don't want to start a massive debate, > but what Newsreader programs do people use on Windows? > > > > I don't want to use Google Groups because it wants me to sign in to Google. > I am generally reluctant to use a browser based reader because it will want > to track me. So I am after an installable client. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Apr 4 14:32:44 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:32:44 -0600 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: -CCTalk +Direct On 4/4/21 2:41 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > I kind of wrote my own. I sign my BBS up to the usenet groups I want > to read and it treats them like message boards... Nicely done! > Not exactly Windows (more like Linux) but it's what I use ON Windows > to read Usenet. I'm going to count it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Apr 4 14:33:37 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:33:37 -0600 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 4/4/21 1:32 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > -CCTalk > +Direct Oh well. Bitten by the altered Reply-To. Glad I didn't say anything I mind being public. Sorry for the noise. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 4 17:54:14 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 22:54:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE References: <84890252.376211.1617576854393.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <84890252.376211.1617576854393@mail.yahoo.com> Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS? FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY.? -- ALSO INTERESTED? BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Apr 4 20:16:42 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 21:16:42 -0400 Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE In-Reply-To: <84890252.376211.1617576854393@mail.yahoo.com> References: <84890252.376211.1617576854393.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <84890252.376211.1617576854393@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ed. When you type in all caps it looks like you've been owned. Can you tone it down so we know it is real mail. On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 6:54 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > > Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR > RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS > DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF > LIST PLEASE > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 4 20:44:34 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 20:44:34 -0500 Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE In-Reply-To: References: <84890252.376211.1617576854393.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <84890252.376211.1617576854393@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: im pritty sure he uses his teletype to send us emails On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 8:17 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > Ed. When you type in all caps it looks like you've been owned. Can you tone > it down so we know it is real mail. > > On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 6:54 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR > > RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS > > DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF > > LIST PLEASE > > > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Apr 4 20:55:02 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 21:55:02 -0400 Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE In-Reply-To: References: <84890252.376211.1617576854393.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <84890252.376211.1617576854393@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 9:44 PM Adrian Stoness wrote: > im pritty sure he uses his teletype to send us emails > LOL. No excuse. I like old hardware, but that doesn't mean I use it for real work. My hand cranked drills are to show my grandchildren. My 18V battery drive is what I actually use. > > On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 8:17 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Ed. When you type in all caps it looks like you've been owned. Can you >> tone >> it down so we know it is real mail. >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 6:54 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >> > Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR >> > RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS >> > DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US >> OFF >> > LIST PLEASE >> > >> > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 4 22:28:05 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 03:28:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE References: <178063456.433492.1617593285270.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <178063456.433492.1617593285270@mail.yahoo.com> Sad but true it all looks the same to me most times . In my life time I have typed far more upper case material than upoer...lower stuff.. In usaf the typewriters? we used to send massive? Mars radio messages between name. And families.... had no lower case Them the years of teletypes,and upoer case computer terminals. .. it's been a hard life... alas On Sunday, April 4, 2021 Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 9:44 PM Adrian Stoness wrote: > im pritty sure? he uses his teletype to send us emails > LOL.? No excuse.? I like old hardware, but that doesn't mean I use it for real work. My hand cranked drills are to show my grandchildren. My 18V battery drive is what I actually use. > > On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 8:17 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Ed. When you type in all caps it looks like you've been owned. Can you >> tone >> it down so we know it is real mail. >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 6:54 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >> > Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR >> > RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS? FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS >> > DISPLAY.? -- ALSO INTERESTED? BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US >> OFF >> > LIST PLEASE >> > >> > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 4 22:48:25 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 20:48:25 -0700 Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE In-Reply-To: <178063456.433492.1617593285270@mail.yahoo.com> References: <178063456.433492.1617593285270.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <178063456.433492.1617593285270@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6f77ad71-786a-3847-fc14-6f32e082897b@sydex.com> On 4/4/21 8:28 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Sad but true it all looks the same to me most times . In my life time I have typed far more upper case material than upoer...lower stuff.. > In usaf the typewriters? we used to send massive? Mars radio messages between name. And families.... had no lower case > > Them the years of teletypes,and upoer case computer terminals. .. it's been a hard life... alas > What's wrong with upper case? Do you know of any keypunches with lower case? --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 4 23:15:57 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 04:15:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE References: <433951335.795283.1617596157354.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <433951335.795283.1617596157354@mail.yahoo.com> Exactly spend years with those too... I am old On Sunday, April 4, 2021 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 4/4/21 8:28 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Sad but true it all looks the same to me most times . In my life time I have typed far more upper case material than upoer...lower stuff.. > In usaf the typewriters? we used to send massive? Mars radio messages between name. And families.... had no lower case > > Them the years of teletypes,and upoer case computer terminals. .. it's been a hard life... alas > What's wrong with upper case?? Do you know of any keypunches with lower case? --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 5 08:08:10 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 09:08:10 -0400 Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE In-Reply-To: <6f77ad71-786a-3847-fc14-6f32e082897b@sydex.com> References: <178063456.433492.1617593285270.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <178063456.433492.1617593285270@mail.yahoo.com> <6f77ad71-786a-3847-fc14-6f32e082897b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <60EA5F23-EEB7-4AEC-862D-82A730D1B4D5@comcast.net> > On Apr 4, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/4/21 8:28 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> >> Sad but true it all looks the same to me most times . In my life time I have typed far more upper case material than upoer...lower stuff.. >> In usaf the typewriters we used to send massive Mars radio messages between name. And families.... had no lower case >> >> Them the years of teletypes,and upoer case computer terminals. .. it's been a hard life... alas >> > > What's wrong with upper case? Do you know of any keypunches with lower > case? > > --Chuck I've heard of them but never seen them. EBCDIC card code certainly supports it, though, and it works even on IBM computers. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 5 08:31:14 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 06:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking to buy any of the IR. INTERNATIONAL RECTIFIER KITS WITH SOLAR RADIOS OR SOLAR RADIO EXIMERMENTS FOR SMECC MUSEUM'S SOLAR ELECTRONICS DISPLAY. -- ALSO INTERESTED BY SOME BY OTHER MAKERS TOO ...EMAIL US OFF LIST PLEASE In-Reply-To: References: <84890252.376211.1617576854393.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <84890252.376211.1617576854393@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2021, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > Ed. When you type in all caps it looks like you've been owned. Can you tone > it down so we know it is real mail. > If he did that, then we'd worry about him being "owned". 1. Entire message body in subject line? Check! 2. Message body duplicate of subject? Check! 3. UTF-16 space characters? Check! 4. Poor grammar? Check! Yep, that's Ed alright. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Apr 5 21:02:28 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 22:02:28 -0400 Subject: Not sure if I posted this, but the Saturn Calc and WP disks Message-ID: <26776179-30bc-9e49-0415-b964c914adf8@alembic.crystel.com> Are up on https://www.crystel.com/pdp For RT11/TSX, let me know if they work. CZ From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Mon Apr 5 23:10:20 2021 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?utf-8?Q?St=C3=BCber?=) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 06:10:20 +0200 Subject: Lecture: Get to know the PDP-8 through emulation, 2021-04-10, 19:00 References: <20210406041020.GE9224.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: <20210406041020.GE9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Hi all, you're invited to the Update computer club[0] public lecture series "Updateringar"[1]! Update is a Swedish computer club founded in 1983 whose members tinker with all kinds of computers, from Raspberry Pi to PDP-12. The club has a big collection of historic computers. In this lecture series we'll talk about everything related to computers: Historic and modern computers, operating systems, programming, hardware projects, creating art with computers, building a computer museum, and more. We'll start with a classic: the PDP-8. When: 2021-04-10, 19:00 CEST Where: https://bbb.cryptoparty.se/b/upd-0mo-m2u-aq8 Get to know the PDP-8 through emulation An emulator is a program that pretends to be a computer different from the one the emulator is executing on. This allows execution of software intended for a physical computer that you do not have. In this talk Pontus will explain the basics by implementing a fully working PDP-8 emulator and explaining each instruction and feature along the way. The end result is a working emulator in less than 1000 lines of C code. And hopefully you will walk away with both an understanding of the classic PDP-8 computer and emulation. Pontus Pihlgren (Update) The lecture is free and open to everyone. Upcoming: 2021-05-08, 19:00: Forth on microcontrollers. Crest (CCCHB) Hope to see you there, Anke [0] http://www.update.uu.se/index_eng.html [1] https://www.update.uu.se/wiki/doku.php/projekt:updateringar From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 23:18:37 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 23:18:37 -0500 Subject: Lecture: Get to know the PDP-8 through emulation, 2021-04-10, 19:00 In-Reply-To: <20210406041020.GE9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> References: <20210406041020.GE9224.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> <20210406041020.GE9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: you guys have a facebook group no? or am i thinking of another group? On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 11:09 PM Anke St?ber via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > you're invited to the Update computer club[0] public lecture series > "Updateringar"[1]! Update is a Swedish computer club founded in 1983 > whose members tinker with all kinds of computers, from Raspberry Pi to > PDP-12. The club has a big collection of historic computers. In this > lecture series we'll talk about everything related to computers: > Historic and modern computers, operating systems, programming, hardware > projects, creating art with computers, building a computer museum, and > more. We'll start with a classic: the PDP-8. > > When: 2021-04-10, 19:00 CEST > Where: https://bbb.cryptoparty.se/b/upd-0mo-m2u-aq8 > > Get to know the PDP-8 through emulation > An emulator is a program that pretends to be a computer different from > the one the emulator is executing on. This allows execution of software > intended for a physical computer that you do not have. In this talk > Pontus will explain the basics by implementing a fully working PDP-8 > emulator and explaining each instruction and feature along the way. The > end result is a working emulator in less than 1000 lines of C code. And > hopefully you will walk away with both an understanding of the classic > PDP-8 computer and emulation. > Pontus Pihlgren (Update) > > The lecture is free and open to everyone. > > Upcoming: 2021-05-08, 19:00: Forth on microcontrollers. Crest (CCCHB) > > Hope to see you there, > Anke > > [0] http://www.update.uu.se/index_eng.html > [1] https://www.update.uu.se/wiki/doku.php/projekt:updateringar > From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Tue Apr 6 00:10:59 2021 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?utf-8?Q?St=C3=BCber?=) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 07:10:59 +0200 Subject: Lecture: Get to know the PDP-8 through emulation, 2021-04-10, 19:00 In-Reply-To: References: <20210406041020.GE9224.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> <20210406041020.GE9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: <20210406051059.GG9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Hi Adrian, On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 11:18:37PM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > you guys have a facebook group no? or am i thinking of another group? we have a Facebook page[0], but it's not really used much. We'll update (hehe) it with our current activities soon. Best, Anke [0] https://www.facebook.com/updatecomputerclub/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 00:25:31 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 00:25:31 -0500 Subject: Lecture: Get to know the PDP-8 through emulation, 2021-04-10, 19:00 In-Reply-To: <20210406051059.GG9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> References: <20210406041020.GE9224.ref@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> <20210406041020.GE9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> <20210406051059.GG9224@cortexcerebri.geruempel.org> Message-ID: hah its the same group i was thinking off nice! On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:10 AM Anke St?ber via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 11:18:37PM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > you guys have a facebook group no? or am i thinking of another group? > > we have a Facebook page[0], but it's not really used much. We'll update > (hehe) it with our current activities soon. > > Best, Anke > > [0] https://www.facebook.com/updatecomputerclub/ > From lee.gleason at comcast.net Tue Apr 6 12:15:06 2021 From: lee.gleason at comcast.net (Lee Gleason) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:15:06 -0500 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >/On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: />//>>/?? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this month />/I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email would be helpful />/this is way more than I can afford as well. / Any luck reading these RSX11D disks yet? -- Lee K.Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 6 12:42:19 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:42:19 -0700 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/6/21 10:15 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> /On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: />//>>/?? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this > month />/I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email would be helpful />/this is way more than I can afford as well. / > > > Any luck reading these RSX11D disks yet? I have to find my qbus rk11 card. I know it's around here somewhere.. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Apr 6 13:00:33 2021 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 19:00:33 +0100 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: I keep finding articles about how The Computer History Museum will (note tense) release the Apple Lisa OS (office system) source code in 2018. I can't find any evidence that this actually happened. As a former Pascal programmer, it would be fascinating. Anyone know if this actually happened? Thanks, Mark (aka John) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 6 13:45:00 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:45:00 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/6/21 11:00 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know if this actually happened? It has not From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Tue Apr 6 19:14:05 2021 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:14:05 -0400 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: So what happened to cancel the release? Did Apple get cold feet and withdraw permission? Was there simply more work and less time than expected? Mike On Tue, Apr 6, 2021, 2:45 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/6/21 11:00 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone know if this actually happened? > > It has not > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 6 19:28:45 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:28:45 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> On 4/6/21 5:14 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > So what happened to cancel the release? It hasn't been canceled, it just hasn't occurred. Also, there was never an official announcement about this from CHM. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Apr 6 20:08:11 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:08:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <666805858.183310.1617757691077@mail.yahoo.com> who? is? holing? it? ?from? release? at this point? apple or.... CHM.....Ed#?In a message dated 4/6/2021 5:28:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Apr 6 20:52:27 2021 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:52:27 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> Al is right. AFAIK, the CHM has never made an official announcement regarding the release of the LISA OS. Perhaps the confusion comes from this email from Al to the LisaList: -- Al Kossow Dec 24, 2017, 7:49:23 AM to lisa... at googlegroups.com Just wanted to let everyone know the sources to the OS and applications were recovered, I converted them to Unix end of line conventions and spaces for Pascal tabs after recovering the files using Disk Image Chef, and they are with Apple for review. After that's done, CHM will do an @CHM blog post about the historical significance of the software and the code that is cleared for release by Apple will be made available in 2018. The only thing I saw that probably won't be able to be released is the American Heritage dictionary for the spell checker in LisaWrite -- I have no idea of "why" by this date the CHM hasn't released the code. Al probably has a better handle on that than anyone. But be aware that the CHM can be somewhat "opaque" at times, with no evil intended. (I can say that, I'm one of the "Founding Members" of the CHM ;) Cheers, Lyle On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:28:45 -0700 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/6/21 5:14 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > So what happened to cancel the release? > > It hasn't been canceled, it just hasn't occurred. > Also, there was never an official announcement about this from CHM. > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 6 22:31:39 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? Message-ID: <20210407033139.D289F18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > I have to find my qbus rk11 card. The RKV11-D is a set of 4 quad cards (3 of them the same as the RK11-D) and a custom 4-slot backplane (different from the RK11-D's), along with another dual QBUS card, connected via flat cables. It was apparently usually supplied by DEC in a mounting box of its own. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 6 22:48:41 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:48:41 -0700 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <20210407033139.D289F18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210407033139.D289F18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86517733-9797-ed66-28dc-b957f5473e36@bitsavers.org> On 4/6/21 8:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > I have to find my qbus rk11 card. > > The RKV11-D is a set of 4 quad cards It isn't that, it's a single-card controller made by Xylogics. Thanks for playing. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 7 00:29:07 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? Message-ID: <20210407052907.B61D718C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > it's a single-card controller made by Xylogics. Ah; never heard of that. If you don't mind indulging my curiousity, how did it connect to the drive (if it used RK05's, and not a Diablo, or something)? Normal flat cables to a dual card (like the RKV11-D), or a connector on the back edge (like a UNIVERTER; so it could use a BC11A cable)? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 00:59:30 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:59:30 -0400 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <86517733-9797-ed66-28dc-b957f5473e36@bitsavers.org> References: <20210407033139.D289F18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86517733-9797-ed66-28dc-b957f5473e36@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/6/21 8:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Al Kossow > > > > > I have to find my qbus rk11 card. > > > > The RKV11-D is a set of 4 quad cards > > It isn't that, it's a single-card controller made > by Xylogics. Thanks for playing. One of these? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/brochures/DQ100_Brochure_Aug1980.pdf Looks neat. I could have used one of those 25-30 years ago. -ethan From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 01:08:59 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:08:59 -0700 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: References: <20210407033139.D289F18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86517733-9797-ed66-28dc-b957f5473e36@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 10:59 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > On 4/6/21 8:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > > From: Al Kossow > > > > > > > I have to find my qbus rk11 card. > > > > > > The RKV11-D is a set of 4 quad cards > > > > It isn't that, it's a single-card controller made > > by Xylogics. Thanks for playing. > > One of these? > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/brochures/DQ100_Brochure_Aug1980.pdf > > Looks neat. I could have used one of those 25-30 years ago. > The Dilog is a different board. Incidentally I have one of these, but I haven't found any documentation for it. Would love to know the header pinout so I can build a cable... - Josh > > -ethan > From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Wed Apr 7 01:16:03 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:16:03 -0700 Subject: Apollo Date Bug Message-ID: Hi All, Back after a long time away from this list... I happen to have a small herd of Apollo DN3500/4500 boxen which i pulled out the other day to see if they still run. Sure enough they still boot up (one has a flaky PS but i have a few spares). Anyway, the last time i fired one of them up (runs SR 10.4.1) was around 2015 and it still was able to deal with the current date back then. This last time the other day I did an EX CALENDAR to reset the date to the current date and it defaulted to some date in 2015 again and i wasn't even able to log on using my known login. I figured it was due to the well known date bug so i reset the date back to 2013 (of course it warned me about possible duplicate file IDs, etc) but I was able to log in again. My question, has there been any progress in fixing the date bug by anyone (who still has some of these machines) (I'm thinking guys like R. Stricklin..). Or is this pretty much a dead end? I know HP put out a "patch" which according to Jim Rees's page was never really an effective patch to begin with...Any insight would be appreciated. -Kurt From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Apr 7 07:21:38 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:21:38 -0400 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: References: <20210407033139.D289F18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86517733-9797-ed66-28dc-b957f5473e36@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <40140154-7e79-d88f-d774-e89ea7676e54@alembic.crystel.com> *nod* I have a Plessy board that interfaces to my Diablo drive and emulates 4 RK05's. The Diablo controller there is 18 bit only, I have wondered if the Plessy can do 22 bit DMA, need to try that sometime... C On 4/7/2021 1:59 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> On 4/6/21 8:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> > From: Al Kossow >>> >>> > I have to find my qbus rk11 card. >>> >>> The RKV11-D is a set of 4 quad cards >> >> It isn't that, it's a single-card controller made >> by Xylogics. Thanks for playing. > > One of these? > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/brochures/DQ100_Brochure_Aug1980.pdf > > Looks neat. I could have used one of those 25-30 years ago. > > -ethan > From pat at vax11.net Wed Apr 7 10:02:52 2021 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 11:02:52 -0400 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have the IEC version. It seems to work fine for me. Pat On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 2:45 PM Jonathan Stone via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Google Shopping shows the PA2067 MMJ die available at 3 online stores. Digi-Key lists it too. > > > What are the pros and cons of the die and a PA8000 CrimpALL, versus the IEC tool ( > https://iec.net/product/modular-crimp-tool-for-rj11-dec-mmj-connectors/ > ) ? If one either already has an RJ45 crimp tool; or doesn't have any crimping tool at all? > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 10:43:11 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:43:11 -0700 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:53 AM Jonathan Stone wrote: > > Google Shopping shows the PA2067 MMJ die available at 3 online stores. Digi-Key lists it too. > > What are the pros and cons of the die and a PA8000 CrimpALL, versus the IEC tool ( https://iec.net/product/modular-crimp-tool-for-rj11-dec-mmj-connectors/) ? If one either already has an RJ45 crimp tool; or doesn't have any crimping tool at all? I can't answer the question about how the Paladin / Greenlee / Tempo Communications PA8000 CrimpALL + PA2067 MMJ die compares to other crimping tools. I don't have any first hand comparison knowledge. As far as availability of the PA2067 dies, Mouser and DigiKey say Obsolete and none in stock. The PA8035 (PA8000 with PA2067) that I have I bought from Online Components. They now show none in stock for both the PA8035 and PA2067. While there might be some of these floating around in inventory somewhere, I'm skeptical that most that show up in search results for online stores are actually available. Most likely if an order was placed it would be canceled after a few days when the seller realizes they have none in stock and they can no longer order any from the manufacturer. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 7 11:09:22 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DZ11 H317-E EIA distribution panel on eBay Message-ID: <20210407160922.DB10018C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This item: https://www.ebay.com/itm/383837694443 (described as just an "EIA distribution panel" in the listing) turns out to be a DZ11 distribution panel, if anyone needs/wants one. The price is vaguely reasonable, but maybe the seller would accept a lower offer. Noel From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed Apr 7 13:08:54 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:08:54 -0500 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16f775c4-5ac6-64b5-f96a-b07a5b04f883@thereinhardts.org> On 4/7/2021 10:43 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:53 AM Jonathan Stone wrote: >> Google Shopping shows the PA2067 MMJ die available at 3 online stores. Digi-Key lists it too. >> >> What are the pros and cons of the die and a PA8000 CrimpALL, versus the IEC tool ( https://iec.net/product/modular-crimp-tool-for-rj11-dec-mmj-connectors/) ? If one either already has an RJ45 crimp tool; or doesn't have any crimping tool at all? > I can't answer the question about how the Paladin / Greenlee / Tempo > Communications PA8000 CrimpALL + PA2067 MMJ die compares to other > crimping tools. I don't have any first hand comparison knowledge. I have two of the Paladin Crimpall handles.? I keep a DEC MMJ die (PA2067) in one and the other gets swapped with RJ45 and RJ11/12 as needed.? They work well and the ratchet handle allows a good amount of crimp pressure. > As far as availability of the PA2067 dies, Mouser and DigiKey say > Obsolete and none in stock. The PA8035 (PA8000 with PA2067) that I > have I bought from Online Components. They now show none in stock for > both the PA8035 and PA2067. > > While there might be some of these floating around in inventory > somewhere, I'm skeptical that most that show up in search results for > online stores are actually available. Most likely if an order was > placed it would be canceled after a few days when the seller realizes > they have none in stock and they can no longer order any from the > manufacturer. There are lots of sources for the crimper handles.? Look for the PA1300 and PA8000 as typical examples.? But the dies are fading.? As Glen mentions, the hits you get for the PA2067 from Google are all false hits.? The most promising one I found was Gordon Electronics, but I confirmed with a phone call this morning that it is a non-stock item that they have to order from the factory - so no go there.? I have looked at the GreenLee and Tempo web sites and there is very little mentioned.? Tempo has a "Discontinued Items" section and you will find the crimper handles and dies listed. I don't know when they went out of production.? My assumption is that Paladin was bought by Greenlee and then sold to Tempo as it seems Tempo is the most recent source.? In any case, the DEC MMJ die is virtually extinct in the wild and the others seem to be going away also. I've ordered the IEC crimper to see what it's like and to have a backup in case something happens to my Paladin.? Hopefully, it is a good tool and IEC keeps it in production as it seems to be the only source now. -- John H. Reinhardt From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 7 13:23:19 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? Message-ID: <20210407182319.945D318C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > One of these? > .. > Looks neat. Wow; that's pretty impressive! Not only will it talk to an RK05, it also works with drives from Ampex, Control Data, Diable, Pertec, etc, etc. I didn't realize they were all similar enough (in terms to the controller interface) to be interchanged like that. For the RK05, it must have used a flat cable from the Berg header on the card to a custom dual card that plugged into the mini-backplane in the RK05 (similar to the RKV11-D). > From: Chris Zach > I have wondered if the Plessy can do 22 bit DMA Depends on whether or not it's program compatible with the RK11. That's because on almost alll UNIBUS controllers, DEC was in the habit of putting the A16/A17 bits of the buffer address in the CSR (usually in the 060 bits). So they could only handle 18-bit DMA addresses. Early QBUS contollers just copied that, so that they were then 100% software compatible. That's why the RLV11 and RLV12 differ a bit: the RLV11 is 18-bit address only; to add 22-bit capability to the RLV12, they had to add an extra register (the RLBAE). (Interestingly, the Dilog card above claims to the RKV11 compatible; but also says it has "memory addressing capability" to 256KB. They can't both be true, though; although the RKV11-D has the A16/A18 bits in the CSR, they aren't connected to anything! See EK-RKV11-OP-001, pg. 3-5.) Noel From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 7 14:06:44 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 14:06:44 -0500 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> Message-ID: <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:52 PM 4/6/2021, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > I converted them to Unix end of line conventions and spaces for >Pascal tabs after recovering the files using Disk Image Chef, OK I'll bite. Googling for quote Disk Image Chef doesn't turn up much beyond this press release (which is all over the web in many languages.) What is it? - John From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 7 14:21:17 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:21:17 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> On 4/7/21 12:06 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > What is it? name changed https://github.com/aaru-dps/Aaru From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 7 15:32:44 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:32:44 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> On 4/7/21 12:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/7/21 12:06 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > >> What is it? > > name changed > > https://github.com/aaru-dps/Aaru Amazing. At least two of their image formats were originated by yours truly--and I was never contacted to confirm details. Okay, I've got a WORM disc here--how do they propose to archive that? (recall that unwritten sectors can't be read). --Chuck From jsw at ieee.org Wed Apr 7 17:47:28 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:47:28 -0500 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <20210407182319.945D318C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210407182319.945D318C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <28143762-fc0e-0dd1-121c-a34c7502beea@ieee.org> On 4/7/21 1:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > ..... > > (Interestingly, the Dilog card above claims to the RKV11 compatible; but also > says it has "memory addressing capability" to 256KB. They can't both be true, > though; although the RKV11-D has the A16/A18 bits in the CSR, they aren't > connected to anything! See EK-RKV11-OP-001, pg. 3-5.) > > Noel Perhaps the marketing assumption is that if you are compatible with 16 bit addressing, you don't even bother to check for 18 bit functionality.? I always wondered why the RKV11-D was only 16 bit addressable.? In those early days of the QBUS, perhaps the evolution of the architecture wasn't as clear.? Or was it an intention limitation? The DEC RK05 disk subsystem cost $10K list circa 1978? (drive, RKV-11D? controller and cabinet), so this wasn't a trivial purchase. I used the the Dilog card (IIRC) with both the Diablo 31 and Dec RK05 drives on LSI 11/23+ and 11/73's.? We had a cable that connected to the Diablo and then we daisy chained to the RK05.? We had to be careful since we were mixing 1 of N and decode N drive selection, but if you only had a few drives it was not too bad. ???? Jerry From amp1ron at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 21:37:56 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 22:37:56 -0400 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: <16f775c4-5ac6-64b5-f96a-b07a5b04f883@thereinhardts.org> References: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> <16f775c4-5ac6-64b5-f96a-b07a5b04f883@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <5410E46F-4861-428E-8D10-AA4AD13C3540@gmail.com> I've got a used Paladin ratcheting crimper handle with a new 2067 die. Works great on my DEC MMJ connectors. So I don't need any of these very similar looking kits that include dies that are labelled RJ11 DEC, DEC RJ11 MMJ, or similar designations. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ratcheting-Crimper-for-RJ-Style-Modular-Plugs-6-Style-Sets-of-Crimping-Heads/323974009963?hash=item4b6e5b146b:g:AB0AAOSwHv1dxdrR $79.50 used free ship in US https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Box-Data-Voice-Kit-LAN-Pro-Tester-FT115A-Impact-Crimper-BRAND-NEW/184498239808 $150 "new" free ship in US. Look at the picture of the data sheet and you'll see one of the dies is MMJ. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tele-Coax-1586-Tool-Kit-Weidmuller-Inc-Paladin-Tools-Greenlee-Tools-Computer/254690789261 $150 plus shipping - one of the end views of the dies looks exactly like my 2067 RJ11 DEC-MMJ die set eBay has multiple listings of "Eclipse 500-031" kit. One of the dies in the kit is labelled RJ-11 DEC. The side view of that die looks like my 2067 die, but that doesn't guarantee it's the same or any good. And these kits seem to also be available new from lots of places, though I also see signs that some Eclipse crimper sets and individual handles and dies are discontinued. An eBay search for "ECLIPSE 500-031" finds many new for $183.59 (free shipping) and up. Searching for "DEC RJ11" on eBay finds a bunch of different looking crimpers, many of which look like they can handle DEC RJ11 connectors with the offset latch (DEC MMJ). But most of these look to be of lower quality. Watch out as there are also plenty of crimpers turned up by that search that definitely won't handle the offset latch of MMJ connectors. -- Ron Pool From amp1ron at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 22:37:24 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 23:37:24 -0400 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: <5410E46F-4861-428E-8D10-AA4AD13C3540@gmail.com> References: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> <16f775c4-5ac6-64b5-f96a-b07a5b04f883@thereinhardts.org> <5410E46F-4861-428E-8D10-AA4AD13C3540@gmail.com> Message-ID: <65B569A7-59FA-4BE7-8A70-5A2910C2B56B@gmail.com> I found some more DEC MMJ crimpers that look pretty decent out there on eBay, but they're not well labelled. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-30-558-Crimp-Die-for-RJ-11-MJ-Modular-Plug-Crimpmaster-Tool-Frame-30-506/333697351548 $15 plus shipping new (2 avail) MMJ die for ideal crimp frame 30-506. There are new and used Ideal 30-506 frames on eBay for reasonable prices. Search for "Ideal 30-506". https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-Twisted-Pair-Kit-33-650-w-Plugs-and-30-506-30-559-30-560-30-558-Dies/265100183244 $55 plus shipping used kit (2 avail) including above die, other dies, and 30-506 crimp frame plus cable cutter and stripper. https://www.ebay.com/itm/IDEAL-TWISTED-PAIR-KIT-45-074/301901645725 $55 free ship in US used Ideal kit (without case) similar to above including DEC MMJ and other dies and tools, but of a different vintage And it could be worth searching for Crimpmaster instead of Ideal. There are lots of used Ideal Crimpmaster frames with dies, but not all of them include Ideal in the description. Maybe some of them are DEC RJ-11 MMJ. -- Ron Pool From ben at huntsmans.net Wed Apr 7 23:32:08 2021 From: ben at huntsmans.net (Ben Huntsman) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 04:32:08 +0000 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? Message-ID: I know this is a strange place to ask, but it's as good a place as any. Anyone on here used IBM's XLC in very old versions? Anyone know what the argument -qdebug=austlib does? I can't seem to find any documentation that says... It would have been an argument for the compiler shipping with AIX 3.2.5, I believe. Thanks in advance! From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 02:23:19 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 01:23:19 -0600 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:33 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Okay, I've got a WORM disc here--how do they propose to archive that? > (recall that unwritten sectors can't be read). > Same for Apple DOS 3.1, 3.2, and 3.2.1 (13-sector format). The formatter only writes the address fields, but no data fields. Apple fixed that (if you consider it a defect) in the 16-sector format (DOS 3.3, Pascal, SOS, ProDOS, GS/OS). From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 06:58:53 2021 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 06:58:53 -0500 Subject: Apollo Date Bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/7/21 1:16 AM, Kurt Nowak via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > Back after a long time away from this list... I happen to have a small herd > of Apollo DN3500/4500 boxen which i pulled out the other day to see if they > still run. I can't help with the date issue, but just wanted to say how nice it is to hear that someone out there has rescued some Apollo stuff - there was someone in one of the other vintage groups I'm in a couple of years back who'd found one of their early machines (dn400 I believe), but that's the only time I think I've seen mention of them in a very long time. I had access to a lab of 9000/425 machines in the mid 90s and that's what got me hooked, then when I was at TNMoC prior to my moving over to the US we had some 2500/3000/4000 systems that I looked at, but sadly those had spent some time in damp conditions and weren't ever likely to work again - the corrosion was just too bad. Jules From mdehling at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 07:13:58 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 14:13:58 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x Message-ID: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> Dear all, I am looking for a version of the VAXSET Software Engineering Tools to run on (Micro)VMS 4.7. The oldest version I have found so far is VAXSET010 which requires VMS 5.3 to run (this was on CSD 1991/05.) VAXSET is a bundle of the following components (and more in newer versions): - CMS (Code Management System) - LSE (Language Sensitive Editor) - SCA (Source Code Analyzer) - MMS (Module Management System) - PCA (Performance Coverage Analyzer) - DTM (DEC/Test Manager) I have found versions of CMS and MMS seperately that run on VMS 4.x. If anyone has old versions of the other components and is willing to share, that would be much appreciated :-) Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Apr 8 10:21:42 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 10:21:42 -0500 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: <65B569A7-59FA-4BE7-8A70-5A2910C2B56B@gmail.com> References: <1932973442.313779.1617382431590.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1932973442.313779.1617382431590@mail.yahoo.com> <16f775c4-5ac6-64b5-f96a-b07a5b04f883@thereinhardts.org> <5410E46F-4861-428E-8D10-AA4AD13C3540@gmail.com> <65B569A7-59FA-4BE7-8A70-5A2910C2B56B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/7/2021 10:37 PM, Ron Pool via cctalk wrote: > I found some more DEC MMJ crimpers that look pretty decent out there on eBay, but they're not well labelled. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-30-558-Crimp-Die-for-RJ-11-MJ-Modular-Plug-Crimpmaster-Tool-Frame-30-506/333697351548 $15 plus shipping new (2 avail) MMJ die for ideal crimp frame 30-506. > > There are new and used Ideal 30-506 frames on eBay for reasonable prices. Search for "Ideal 30-506". > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-Twisted-Pair-Kit-33-650-w-Plugs-and-30-506-30-559-30-560-30-558-Dies/265100183244 $55 plus shipping used kit (2 avail) including above die, other dies, and 30-506 crimp frame plus cable cutter and stripper. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IDEAL-TWISTED-PAIR-KIT-45-074/301901645725 $55 free ship in US used Ideal kit (without case) similar to above including DEC MMJ and other dies and tools, but of a different vintage > > And it could be worth searching for Crimpmaster instead of Ideal. There are lots of used Ideal Crimpmaster frames with dies, but not all of them include Ideal in the description. Maybe some of them are DEC RJ-11 MMJ. > > -- Ron Pool > > > > The Ideal Crimpmaster tool looks a lot like the Paladin / Greenlee / Tempo tool.? It may be that the Ideal dies will fit. A search of the Ideal site finds no mention of the 30-558 RJ11 MJ crimp die though so perhaps it's out of production there as well. If you find one and want it, get it as who knows if they will be available again. -- John H. Reinhardt From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 10:34:58 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 08:34:58 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9c29746f-8665-78a3-757e-a3f2ae485b54@sydex.com> On 4/8/21 12:23 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:33 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > > wrote: > > Okay, I've got a WORM disc here--how do they propose to archive that? > (recall that unwritten sectors can't be read). There's a big difference--in a WORM, unwritten sectors *mean* something. Recall that you can't ever re-write or erase data. The read/write filesystems are "interesting" and use the presence or absence of data as part of the picture. Just unraveled one such filesystem--it's interesting. You never lose information. Consider that, on a sector basis, there are three possibilities for the value of a bit. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 11:29:23 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 09:29:23 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/8/21 8:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 09:34 Chuck Guzis > wrote: > > There's a big difference--in a WORM, unwritten sectors *mean* something. > > > For archival purposes, in what way does an unwritten sector on a WORM > mean more than an unwritten sector (with no data field present) of a > floppy? Neither can be accurately archived without representing the fact > that it is unwritten. Simple--a WORM contains the entire history of information on the disc; nothing is ever lost. A floppy can have data overwritten--and probably does (e.g. directories and allocation maps) The only way to update a WORM is to add to it. --Chuck From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 8 13:38:42 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 19:38:42 +0100 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 08/04/2021 17:29, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/8/21 8:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 09:34 Chuck Guzis > > wrote: >> >> There's a big difference--in a WORM, unwritten sectors *mean* something. >> >> >> For archival purposes, in what way does an unwritten sector on a WORM >> mean more than an unwritten sector (with no data field present) of a >> floppy? Neither can be accurately archived without representing the fact >> that it is unwritten. > Simple--a WORM contains the entire history of information on the disc; > nothing is ever lost. A floppy can have data overwritten--and probably > does (e.g. directories and allocation maps) The only way to update a > WORM is to add to it. > I must be missing something. I understood (for WORM) "unwritten" to mean "never written" rather than "written but its address is no longer in the FS catalogue". So with WORM (whether DEC RVxx style optical disk or CD/DVD-RW in certain modes) you can (if the firmware allows) read sectors that contain stale data. But (afaict) a sector that has never been written is just that: unwritten. How does it convey any information (other than "I'm still blank")? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 14:27:15 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 12:27:15 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51a2f368-baf3-b08f-50e6-bea89a145051@sydex.com> On 4/8/21 11:38 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > But (afaict) a sector that has never been written is just that: > unwritten. How does it convey any information (other than "I'm still > blank")? Let me try... Because you can't rewrite or update tables without copying them, a WORM file system that can be updated dynamically has to resort to lists of previous versions of the tables. So to find the most recent copy of any list, you read through the list until one of two things happens: You hit an unwritten sector, which means that the last thing read successfully is what you're after, or the preallocated list area is completely full, in which case the list continues in another preallocated area or is at the absolute end, depending on the implementation. In the WORM file system that I'm currently working in, the implementation is a mixture of both. There are fixed preallocated areas for directory information, but there are also lists of file data areas written that can overflow to other preallocated areas. Overflow of the directory is handled with a tree structure, so it's pretty much the same thing as a linked list in a practical sense. I assume that it was done that way so that a bad (error) sector wouldn't upset the whole apple cart. By the way, does anyone know the structure of an ".ITI" file? --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 8 14:43:42 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 14:43:42 -0500 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <51a2f368-baf3-b08f-50e6-bea89a145051@sydex.com> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> <51a2f368-baf3-b08f-50e6-bea89a145051@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20210408194423.9B9B927462@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:27 PM 4/8/2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >By the way, does anyone know the structure of an ".ITI" file The context is a WORM file system, or a particular OS, or an app environment? - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 16:39:04 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 14:39:04 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <20210408194423.9B9B927462@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <5eaa1a80-fe5a-9f56-71a4-d7c614832152@bitsavers.org> <20210406185227.022ad015@asrock> <20210407190735.97F6E2743F@mx1.ezwind.net> <1581e535-d6dc-fc70-f984-0ad5907c57c0@bitsavers.org> <1ab3d56e-0822-50ec-c82c-5972b3f43d9a@sydex.com> <51a2f368-baf3-b08f-50e6-bea89a145051@sydex.com> <20210408194423.9B9B927462@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <9983b8fd-4027-e9f9-c5c0-bd0e4c7533d0@sydex.com> On 4/8/21 12:43 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 02:27 PM 4/8/2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> By the way, does anyone know the structure of an ".ITI" file > > The context is a WORM file system, or a particular OS, or an app environment? > Files extracted from a WORM file system; OS not relevant according to documentation that I have (same product offered for several different platforms). App appears to be some sort of document archiving system. Said files contain no recognizable cleartext. Ring any bells? --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 8 16:48:02 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? Message-ID: <20210408214802.1419518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerry Weiss > I always wondered why the RKV11-D was only 16 bit addressable. The manual (EK-RKV11-OP-001) says: "Since the 11/03 BUS structure has no provision for extended addressing, no connection is made to the bus from these [XM] bits on the RKVII-D." (pg. 3-5). > The DEC RK05 disk subsystem cost $10K list circa 1978 (drive, RKV-11D > controller and cabinet), so this wasn't a trivial purchase. Interesting. Where did you see that listed, just out of curiosity? (I looked in the Jan '84 PDP-11 Systems and Options, my copy of which just showed up,but that's too late; I could probably find it if I pawed through all my DEC sales literature, but I'm too lazy... :-). Noel From rshepprd at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 23:27:32 2021 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:27:32 -0400 Subject: Lisa Source Code Message-ID: <606fd7b4.1c69fb81.86328.8907@mx.google.com> I believe the original Amiga file system also used a linked-list approach. That way you could, theoretically, reconstruct a file from any one of it?s data blocks. Richard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Thu Apr 8 23:54:57 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:54:57 -0700 Subject: Apollo Date Bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well actually I didn't rescue them - they belonged to my father so i guess you can say I inherited them. He was a physicist and did quite a bit of Fortran development on them years ago. I worked with Suns at the time and so our worlds kind of merged and I ended up helping him with some problems he had and ended up learning some things about Apollos in the process. Plus he had a pretty decent documentation collection too which was very helpful. Eventually when he saw the end days for Apollo he scooped up all of the machines he could find and hoarded them away. He even managed to get ahold of the Apollos at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography lab when they scrapped them. I think i have about 15 of them in various states and I have a decent collection of spare parts. I did get rid of the monitors though since they were too much to deal with and they output fine on my flat-screen monitors with the right cabling. But yeah there sure doesn't seem to be very many people out there that have them anymore for whatever reason...Not the most attractive boxes and they are heavy as hell too! On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 4:59 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 4/7/21 1:16 AM, Kurt Nowak via cctalk wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Back after a long time away from this list... I happen to have a small > herd > > of Apollo DN3500/4500 boxen which i pulled out the other day to see if > they > > still run. > > I can't help with the date issue, but just wanted to say how nice it is to > hear that someone out there has rescued some Apollo stuff - there was > someone in one of the other vintage groups I'm in a couple of years back > who'd found one of their early machines (dn400 I believe), but that's the > only time I think I've seen mention of them in a very long time. > > I had access to a lab of 9000/425 machines in the mid 90s and that's what > got me hooked, then when I was at TNMoC prior to my moving over to the US > we had some 2500/3000/4000 systems that I looked at, but sadly those had > spent some time in damp conditions and weren't ever likely to work again - > the corrosion was just too bad. > > Jules > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 08:05:17 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:05:17 -0400 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <606fd7b4.1c69fb81.86328.8907@mx.google.com> References: <606fd7b4.1c69fb81.86328.8907@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <47B05141-FE32-4346-91B1-E2527EC42CC8@comcast.net> Linked lists go back a long way. FAT is one, in a sense. DECtape file systems for DOS (also RSTS) are linked, in the blocks. The same goes for the CDC 6000 file system (more precisely, it has contiguous blocks within a track, and links from the last block in the track to the next track number). paul > On Apr 9, 2021, at 12:27 AM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: > > I believe the original Amiga file system also used a linked-list approach. That way you could, theoretically, reconstruct a file from any one of it?s data blocks. > Richard > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > From jsw at ieee.org Fri Apr 9 09:45:53 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:45:53 -0500 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <20210408214802.1419518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210408214802.1419518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7f99ffec-01ac-582e-e7a8-584f176a6245@ieee.org> On 4/8/21 4:48 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jerry Weiss > > > I always wondered why the RKV11-D was only 16 bit addressable. > > The manual (EK-RKV11-OP-001) says: "Since the 11/03 BUS structure has no > provision for extended addressing, no connection is made to the bus from > these [XM] bits on the RKVII-D." (pg. 3-5). Certainly the published interface is constrained by what was "officially" released.?? Just pondering if there was an internal engineering roadmap from 16->18->22 bits around this time or did things evolve more discretely? > > The DEC RK05 disk subsystem cost $10K list circa 1978 (drive, RKV-11D > > controller and cabinet), so this wasn't a trivial purchase. > > Interesting. Where did you see that listed, just out of curiosity? (I looked > in the Jan '84 PDP-11 Systems and Options, my copy of which just showed up,but > that's too late; I could probably find it if I pawed through all my DEC sales > literature, but I'm too lazy... :-). > > Noel My reference here is "A source handbook for Digital Equipment Corporation LSI-l I-compatible products" https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.3758/BF03205335.pdf ????????? Jerry From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 09:47:15 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 07:47:15 -0700 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <47B05141-FE32-4346-91B1-E2527EC42CC8@comcast.net> References: <606fd7b4.1c69fb81.86328.8907@mx.google.com> <47B05141-FE32-4346-91B1-E2527EC42CC8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <521ba584-976e-a914-579d-0562e9790ba0@sydex.com> On 4/9/21 6:05 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Linked lists go back a long way. FAT is one, in a sense. DECtape file systems for DOS (also RSTS) are linked, in the blocks. The same goes for the CDC 6000 file system (more precisely, it has contiguous blocks within a track, and links from the last block in the track to the next track number). > > paul > >> On Apr 9, 2021, at 12:27 AM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: >> >> I believe the original Amiga file system also used a linked-list approach. That way you could, theoretically, reconstruct a file from any one of it?s data blocks. >> Richard The point with the WORM drive setup I described, is that one may recover *every* file ever written, however the name and attributes of the file may not be recoverable, being stored in the tree, which may not be readable. That is, the linked list may be intact, but the tree not so or vice-versa. The advantage is that searching for a given file is faster using a tree than it would be traversing a list. Reading old papers on the subject, it seems that old optical phase-change storage, while permanent may not have been absolutely reliable. I should also mention that although the WORM discs do store quite a bit of data (in my case 470MB per side), they're not very fast. More floppy-disk speed than hard disk. --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Apr 9 10:56:52 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:56:52 -0400 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <7f99ffec-01ac-582e-e7a8-584f176a6245@ieee.org> References: <20210408214802.1419518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7f99ffec-01ac-582e-e7a8-584f176a6245@ieee.org> Message-ID: <5ad909ed-6646-83d1-a2cf-c2203f20f553@alembic.crystel.com> > Certainly the published interface is constrained by what was > "officially" released.?? Just pondering if there was an internal > engineering roadmap from 16->18->22 bits around this time or did things > evolve more discretely? I think it evolved. Remember there was one type of core memory for the 11/03 that only worked in a 16 bit box as did the little 4k memory boards that required the 11/03 to do refresh cycles. Maybe the MSV11-CD memory board (had one of those) as well. I think it used "bits 16-17" for the +15,-5 or something like that and plugging an 18 bit card into a slot like that would cause the usual fireworks. But back in the beginning your choice was RX01 floppies (interrupt so they didn't care), or the RKV11. I've got the 1975 or so version of the 11/03 short book, I can take a look. But I remember very clearly the insanity of the RLV11 controller board with the whole BA11-S requirement for the CD bus (which was repurposed as the PMI on the 11/83). Always wondered if you could run an RLV11 in slots 2-3 on a BA23 box. Probably. C From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 14:23:53 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:23:53 -0400 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18f5ed57-1b73-2aa6-b97c-996070303000@gmail.com> Greetings, Ben. I am replying directly because I do not have a definitive answer. On 2021-04-08 00:32, Ben Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > I know this is a strange place to ask, but it's as good a place as any. > Anyone on here used IBM's XLC in very old versions? > > Anyone know what the argument -qdebug=austlib does? I have the docs for IBM C Set++ 3.1 for AIX (1993) and it is not there.? As you probably know, the Austin lab was known for HPC s/w so they may have shipped special debug versions. > I can't seem to find any documentation that says... It would have been an argument for the compiler shipping with AIX 3.2.5, I believe. > > Thanks in advance! Have you tried TUHS?? Many on that list go far back at IBM and AIX. Sorry, N. From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Apr 11 02:18:40 2021 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 07:18:40 +0000 Subject: In search of RLX blade software Message-ID: <5DFF1FFC-3F2F-432B-A750-BA58D61A8EC1@vmssoftware.com> I?ve been given a couple of RLX blade server chassis loaded with blades (one with Transmeta Crusoe cpu?s, and one with Pentium III cpu?s). I hope you?ll allow me to count these as ?vintage? because of their interesting origin: the Pentium III loaded chassis was part of a 768 node computer cluster at the Sanger Institute in the UK, and was used in the last stretch of the DNA sequencing computations for the Human Genome Project. I?d like to build a compute cluster out of these, but I don?t have the rpm?s they supplied to customize Linux for their blades. Ideally, I?d hope to find a copy of their ?Control Tower? blade management software, and their customized Linux installation images, but just the bare rpm?s would do for now. From the RLX platform guide, I?d hope to find: kernel-*rlx*.i386.rpm kernel-headers-*rlx*.i386.rpm devfsd-*rlx*.i386.rpm ucd-snmp-*rlx*.i386.rpm net-snmp-*rlx*.i386.rpm ucd-snmp-utils-*rlx*.i386.rpm net-snmp-utils-*rlx*.i386.rpm bootctl-*rlx*.i386.rpm atftp-*rlx*.i386.rpm lm_sensors-*-*rlx*.i386.rpm lm_sensors-drivers-*-*rlx*.i386.rpm lm_sensors-devel-*-*rlx*.i386.rpm base-utils-*rlx*.i386.rpm runctl-*rlx*.noarch.rpm networkcfg-*rlx*.noarch.rpm mgmtmode-*rlx*.noarch.rpm namedcfg-*rlx*.noarch.rpm dhcpdcfg-*rlx*.noarch.rpm lilo-*rlx*.i386.rpm grub-*rlx*.i386.rpm rlx-clientpm-*rlx*.i386.rpm This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Apr 11 09:08:37 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 07:08:37 -0700 Subject: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) Message-ID: Does anyone recall what kind of hardware/software was used to read/write the early Mitsubishi Melcard EPROM cards with the PCB edge connector contacts? It was explained to me by someone that a EPROM programmer could be used, however I've never seen a socket which fits the edge card connector of these cards. I've uploaded an image of the edge contact end of this type of card here: http://www.hammondorganservice.com/downloads/images/melcard.jpg Seems these were also available in the SRAM variety as well. Thanks Don Resor From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 11 12:37:25 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 10:37:25 -0700 Subject: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/11/21 7:08 AM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone recall what kind of hardware/software was used to read/write the > early Mitsubishi Melcard EPROM cards with the PCB edge connector contacts? > > It was explained to me by someone that a EPROM programmer could be used, > however I've never seen a socket which fits the edge card connector of these > cards. I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but there's a potload of information on Bitsavers, starting with PDF page 115: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mitsubishi/Mitsubishi_VLSI_MOS_Memory_RAM_ROM_and_Memory_Cards_Jan91.pdf --Chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 12:38:07 2021 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 14:38:07 -0300 Subject: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isnt that the epson card standard? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em dom, 11 de abr de 2021 14:37, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > On 4/11/21 7:08 AM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone recall what kind of hardware/software was used to read/write > the > > early Mitsubishi Melcard EPROM cards with the PCB edge connector > contacts? > > > > It was explained to me by someone that a EPROM programmer could be used, > > however I've never seen a socket which fits the edge card connector of > these > > cards. > > I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but there's a > potload of information on Bitsavers, starting with PDF page 115: > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mitsubishi/Mitsubishi_VLSI_MOS_Memory_RAM_ROM_and_Memory_Cards_Jan91.pdf > > --Chuck > > From david4602 at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 12:45:52 2021 From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:45:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> On 4/9/21 3:23 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > On 2021-04-08 00:32, Ben Huntsman via cctalk wrote: >> I know this is a strange place to ask, but it's as good a place as any. >> Anyone on here used IBM's XLC in very old versions? >> >> Anyone know what the argument -qdebug=austlib does? > > I have the docs for IBM C Set++ 3.1 for AIX (1993) and it is not there.? > As you probably know, the Austin lab was known for HPC s/w so they may > have shipped special debug versions. [..] I used xlc in the early 90's at IBM in the Raleigh networking lab, along with the excellent xcdb debugger - Austin's debug libs weren't a part of our repertoire. There was plenty going on that was deeper and closer to the iron in Austin, so it could be just about anything. AIX 3.2.5 was so much leaner and meaner than 4.x that came along next... I never did warm up to it the same way. - David From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Apr 11 19:08:42 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:08:42 -0700 Subject: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know. I do know that Roland also used something similar though the length of some of the contact points are different from the Mitsubishi Melcard. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza via cctalk Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 10:38 AM To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) Isnt that the epson card standard? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em dom, 11 de abr de 2021 14:37, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > On 4/11/21 7:08 AM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone recall what kind of hardware/software was used to > > read/write > the > > early Mitsubishi Melcard EPROM cards with the PCB edge connector > contacts? > > > > It was explained to me by someone that a EPROM programmer could be > > used, however I've never seen a socket which fits the edge card > > connector of > these > > cards. > > I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but there's a > potload of information on Bitsavers, starting with PDF page 115: > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mitsubishi/Mitsubishi_VLSI_MOS_Memory_RAM > _ROM_and_Memory_Cards_Jan91.pdf > > --Chuck > > From organlists1 at sonic.net Sun Apr 11 20:15:41 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 18:15:41 -0700 Subject: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After digging a bit further and disassembling a card I have here which was defective and peeling apart. I now know that this is a Seiko-Epson not a Mitsubishi Melcard. Seiko-Epson are 40 Contact Traces. Mitsubishi are 50 Contact Traces. I also found a data sheet from the p/n silk screened on the PWB of the card here: https://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=11082c69f543ba2dc23ee78386ce2ce49debd2&type=O&term=EPC032IEC0 Thanks for giving me a shove in the right direction. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of D. Resor via cctalk Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:09 PM To: 'Alexandre Souza' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) I don't know. I do know that Roland also used something similar though the length of some of the contact points are different from the Mitsubishi Melcard. Don Resor -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza via cctalk Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2021 10:38 AM To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mitsubishi Melcard (edge connect type) Isnt that the epson card standard? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em dom, 11 de abr de 2021 14:37, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > On 4/11/21 7:08 AM, D. Resor via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone recall what kind of hardware/software was used to > > read/write > the > > early Mitsubishi Melcard EPROM cards with the PCB edge connector > contacts? > > > > It was explained to me by someone that a EPROM programmer could be > > used, however I've never seen a socket which fits the edge card > > connector of > these > > cards. > > I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but there's a > potload of information on Bitsavers, starting with PDF page 115: > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mitsubishi/Mitsubishi_VLSI_MOS_Memory_RAM > _ROM_and_Memory_Cards_Jan91.pdf > > --Chuck > > From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Apr 12 07:40:19 2021 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:40:19 +0200 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <41b260225a6f7288401b3a2029ebd1b0e382c2c9.camel@agj.net> tor 2021-04-01 klockan 12:15 -0600 skrev Grant Taylor via cctalk: > On 4/1/21 11:36 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > what Newsreader programs do people use on Windows? > > I run Linux, so I don't have first hand experience with news readers > on > Windows.? But I do know that people use the following: > > ? - Gravity (S.G. is updating it at GRC; > https://www.grc.com/discussions.htm) > ? - Thunderbird (I use this on Linux) > ? - Xnews (I think?) > > I know that there are a lot more GUI options on Windows than there > are > on Linux. > > There is probably also the option of using the TUI news readers in / > via > Windows Services for Linux (?is that the proper name for /today/?). > Do gnus work in GNU Emacs running native on windows ? From kl at 2k.ca Mon Apr 12 07:59:49 2021 From: kl at 2k.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:59:49 +0200 Subject: OT: Newsreader for Windows In-Reply-To: <41b260225a6f7288401b3a2029ebd1b0e382c2c9.camel@agj.net> References: <009201d7271d$89f30920$9dd91b60$@ntlworld.com> <41b260225a6f7288401b3a2029ebd1b0e382c2c9.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <0D2A2556-7965-4076-8538-C518214A23F5@2k.ca> Speaking of GRC? Steve posted that he just got married a few days ago.. congrats.. to Steve :) > On 12 Apr 2021, at 14:40, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > > tor 2021-04-01 klockan 12:15 -0600 skrev Grant Taylor via cctalk: >> On 4/1/21 11:36 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >>> what Newsreader programs do people use on Windows? >> >> I run Linux, so I don't have first hand experience with news readers >> on >> Windows. But I do know that people use the following: >> >> - Gravity (S.G. is updating it at GRC; >> https://www.grc.com/discussions.htm) >> - Thunderbird (I use this on Linux) >> - Xnews (I think?) >> >> I know that there are a lot more GUI options on Windows than there >> are >> on Linux. >> >> There is probably also the option of using the TUI news readers in / >> via >> Windows Services for Linux (?is that the proper name for /today/?). >> > > Do gnus work in GNU Emacs running native on windows ? > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 02:54:38 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 09:54:38 +0200 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 at 19:46, David Schmidt via cctech wrote: > > AIX 3.2.5 was so much leaner and meaner than 4.x that came along next... > I never did warm up to it the same way. Twas ever thus, no? I remember an ad campaign for AIX when it was quite new... "We took UNIX and added millions of lines of code to it." (Or words to that effect.) To me and to a lot of other people, this did not sound like a good thing... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 00:36:02 2021 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 00:36:02 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 16 Date Announcement Message-ID: Hello computer friends - all of us down in VCF Midwest Planning Bunker have decided: VCFMW16 planning must commence! To not do so would surely set up for failure, if and when conditions continue their current upward trend and we get the OK to gather again in unlimited numbers. So...we're going to have a show! Our schedule this year will be the same weekend as in 2019, with the dates this year falling on the 11th and 12th of September. Same location as well, at Waterford Banquets (and Clarion Inn), Elmhurst, Illinois. See our full announcement here: http://vcfmw.org/announce. And fill out the linked survey if you'd like. Still much to do - room block reservation, improved table layout planning, speaker recruitment....and that dang T-shirt. We hope everyone who is able to travel in September will consider paying us a visit. More news to come - check our newly re-themed website for updates as they occur! http://vcfmw.org -jt From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 19:24:22 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 20:24:22 -0400 Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard Message-ID: I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few levers are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that connects the keyboard to the printer. Thanks Bill From steven at malikoff.com Mon Apr 12 20:21:23 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:21:23 +1000 Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill said > I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer > from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of > the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect > characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few levers > are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them > properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to > the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that > connects the keyboard to the printer. This video, Part 2 of a series by Jerry Walker seems to cover removing the keyboard from the printer pretty thoroughly, including how to take out the H piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VoPIp_wd4 Also I think Marc's videos cover it too. Steve. From organlists1 at sonic.net Tue Apr 13 00:08:12 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:08:12 -0700 Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This might be a start.... https://www.soemtron.org/teletypemanuals.html Here also is a restoration set of videos.... It seems there are eight parts and this was uploaded recently. ASR33 Restoration https://youtu.be/pEzpYHb4p5w Don Resor N6KAW -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctech Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM To: cctech Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few levers are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that connects the keyboard to the printer. Thanks Bill From organlists1 at sonic.net Tue Apr 13 00:09:38 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:09:38 -0700 Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction, 10 Parts Don Resor N6KAW -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of D. Resor via cctech Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 10:08 PM To: 'Bill Degnan' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard This might be a start.... https://www.soemtron.org/teletypemanuals.html Here also is a restoration set of videos.... It seems there are eight parts and this was uploaded recently. ASR33 Restoration https://youtu.be/pEzpYHb4p5w Don Resor N6KAW -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctech Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM To: cctech Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few levers are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that connects the keyboard to the printer. Thanks Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 06:40:41 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 07:40:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:19 AM steven--- via cctech wrote: > Bill said > > I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer > > from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of > > the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect > > characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few > levers > > are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them > > properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to > > the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that > > connects the keyboard to the printer. > > This video, Part 2 of a series by Jerry Walker seems to cover removing the > keyboard > from the printer pretty thoroughly, including how to take out the H piece: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VoPIp_wd4 > > Also I think Marc's videos cover it too. > > Steve. > Thanks. I watched Marc's videos to understand how to fix after removing the keyboard. Part 2 of Jerry Walker's set does have useful info. Thanks for saving me some reasearch time. Bill > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 07:58:07 2021 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:58:07 -0300 Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014bd271-4359-be1e-93e4-e282148a1582@gmail.com> Didn't curiousmarc on youtube posted a whole series about repairing and resotring one? Em 12/04/2021 21:24, Bill Degnan via cctech escreveu: > I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer > from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of > the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect > characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few levers > are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them > properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to > the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that > connects the keyboard to the printer. > Thanks > Bill > . > -- ---8<---Corte Aqui---8<--- https://www.tabalabs.com.br https://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com From david4602 at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 08:10:36 2021 From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:10:36 -0400 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/21 1:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> AIX 3.2.5 was so much leaner and meaner than 4.x that came along next... >> I never did warm up to it the same way. > > Twas ever thus, no? A universal truth. > I remember an ad campaign for AIX when it was quite new... "We took > UNIX and added millions of lines of code to it." (Or words to that > effect.) To me and to a lot of other people, this did not sound like a > good thing... The ad campaign I remember was "A disciplined merge of System V and BSD" This looks relevant, from 1989: https://technologists.com/sauer/Convergence_of_AIX_and_4.3BSD.pdf From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 09:07:55 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:07:55 +0200 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 15:10, David Schmidt via cctech wrote: > > On 4/12/21 1:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> AIX 3.2.5 was so much leaner and meaner than 4.x that came along next... > >> I never did warm up to it the same way. > > > > Twas ever thus, no? > > A universal truth. > > > I remember an ad campaign for AIX when it was quite new... "We took > > UNIX and added millions of lines of code to it." (Or words to that > > effect.) To me and to a lot of other people, this did not sound like a > > good thing... > > The ad campaign I remember was "A disciplined merge of System V and BSD" > > This looks relevant, from 1989: > https://technologists.com/sauer/Convergence_of_AIX_and_4.3BSD.pdf Thanks for that! I only ever worked with AIX in my first job -- 1988-1990. Never saw it again. I wish I'd learned a bit more now... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Tue Apr 13 11:44:33 2021 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:44:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 8:14 AM Liam Proven via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 at 19:46, David Schmidt via cctech > wrote: > > > > AIX 3.2.5 was so much leaner and meaner than 4.x that came along next... > > I never did warm up to it the same way. > > Twas ever thus, no? > > I remember an ad campaign for AIX when it was quite new... "We took > UNIX and added millions of lines of code to it." (Or words to that > effect.) To me and to a lot of other people, this did not sound like a > good thing... > Linux tends to churn that amount of code in a release. I find it interesting how large systemd has become as well: https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/06/linux_2020_kernel_systemd_code/ The rate of change to Linux literally keeps me up at night during incidents.. but attempting to tame this for an enterprise also pays the bills.. I find it peculiar so many people are ok with this model of computing but the jobs are good for the time being. > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 12:27:43 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 10:27:43 -0700 Subject: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Misprinted characters could also come from a shoe not set properly on a rail, or the print head needing oiling. I had both problems on mine. I think it?s this video here https://youtu.be/x_Di7KpHubc . You need to remove the carriage, which can be done without removing the printer. Also the H piece is a pain in the arse. Note that there is a direction to it, it?s not symmetric. Pay attention of which direction the long side is when you remove it, and make sure to put it back the same way. Also one of the side plates in between which the H is held has a spring, the other does not. To get it out (and back in), you want to push the H and compress that spring, using a long screwdriver in the slot of the H made just for that. Should be easy enough. Putting it back is the tough part. I eventually was able to do it in seconds using a long pair of forceps to hold the H in the correct position, and the aforementioned long screwdriver to do the pushing. With screwdriver alone it?s possible but very frustrating and takes many trials. Marc > On Apr 13, 2021, at 4:41 AM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > ?On Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 2:19 AM steven--- via cctech > wrote: > >> Bill said >>> I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer >>> from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of >>> the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect >>> characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few >> levers >>> are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them >>> properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to >>> the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that >>> connects the keyboard to the printer. >> >> This video, Part 2 of a series by Jerry Walker seems to cover removing the >> keyboard >> from the printer pretty thoroughly, including how to take out the H piece: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VoPIp_wd4 >> >> Also I think Marc's videos cover it too. >> >> Steve. >> > > Thanks. I watched Marc's videos to understand how to fix after removing > the keyboard. > > Part 2 of Jerry Walker's set does have useful info. Thanks for saving me > some reasearch time. > > Bill > >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 13 17:15:04 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay sellers Message-ID: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I'm slightly amazed at how some eBay sellers react. Take this item: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154404969351 which the seller had listed as a 'PDP-8 PC05'. I sent the person a message pointing out that it was a PC04 (as shown by the 4 rocker switches, and the small backplane - PC05's have a larger one to hold more cards). They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing! Well, I hope the bider really is a PDP-8 owner who wants a PC04... :-) Noel From cym224 at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 17:24:34 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:24:34 -0400 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2021-04-13 18:15, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I'm slightly amazed at how some eBay sellers react. Take this item: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/154404969351 > > which the seller had listed as a 'PDP-8 PC05'. I sent the person a message > pointing out that it was a PC04 (as shown by the 4 rocker switches, and the > small backplane - PC05's have a larger one to hold more cards). > > They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing! No surprise there.? I recall a seller selling a 6 GHz SPARC box (or somesuch ridiculous frequency).? The chip's rev number was 6.? I pointed this out with the same reply and inaction. N. > Well, I hope the bider really is a PDP-8 owner who wants a PC04... :-) > > Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 13 17:28:56 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:28:56 -0600 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 4/13/21 4:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing! I've had similar things happen multiple times. I've also reported some of those auctions to eBay as misinformation. Though it's been years since I've done so. I don't know if it's possible, much less convenient to do so now. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 17:49:29 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:49:29 -0400 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: As a very experienced Ebay (and now Etsy!) seller, I can say this... > They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing! We don't trust you buyers. Sellers of collectibles and antiques get bombarded with nitpicks and corrections. Often these are right, but often they are wrong. And sometimes it is very clearly intended to lessen the value of the thing being sold. So unless it is something that can easily and quickly be researched and confirmed - we sellers will mostly just let things fly, and let the buyers figure it out. That being said, if I was the seller of this item and you, Noel, sent me a comment like this, I would think "Oh, it's Noel, he knows his stuff. I will deal with this". But if someone I do not know did the same, I would maybe send a thank you note, think about it for a minute or so to see if investing a bunch of research time is worth it, and likely do nothing. Let the buyers figure it out. -- Will From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 13 17:54:38 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:54:38 -0700 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <001c01d730b7$fc38ac80$f4aa0580$@net> > researched and confirmed - we sellers will mostly just let things fly, > and let the buyers figure it out. And that is why there are SNADs! :D -Ali From drb at msu.edu Tue Apr 13 17:57:52 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:57:52 -0400 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:54:38 -0700.) <001c01d730b7$fc38ac80$f4aa0580$@net> References: <001c01d730b7$fc38ac80$f4aa0580$@net> <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20210413225752.BF2543248E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > And that is why there are SNADs! :D "Systems Network Architecture Distribution Services" ? :) De From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 13 18:02:22 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 17:02:22 -0600 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <481b78d1-7edb-567e-c6a0-4e9ac1438d31@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/13/21 4:49 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > We don't trust you buyers. So ... you trust us enough to take our money, but you don't trust us. > Sellers of collectibles and antiques get bombarded with nitpicks and > corrections. Often these are right, but often they are wrong. I guess that's unsurprising. > And sometimes it is very clearly intended to lessen the value of the > thing being sold. How does the intention behind the message alter the veracity of the message? > So unless it is something that can easily and quickly be researched > and confirmed - we sellers will mostly just let things fly, and let > the buyers figure it out. That seems tantamount to selling something that you have good / reasonable reason to question the accuracy of the listing. This seems disingenuous to me. Do you put any comments on the listing of "this description is best effort" or "buyer is responsible for accuracy"? > That being said, if I was the seller of this item and you, Noel, > sent me a comment like this, I would think "Oh, it's Noel, he knows > his stuff. I will deal with this". But if someone I do not know did > the same, I would maybe send a thank you note, think about it for a > minute or so to see if investing a bunch of research time is worth it, > and likely do nothing. Let the buyers figure it out. What constitutes "a bunch of research time"? 1 minute? 5 minutes? More time than it took to publish the listing? Is there something that random people submitting corrections can do to make it easier for you such that you are more likely to accept the correction and update the listing accordingly? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 18:02:18 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 19:02:18 -0400 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <001c01d730b7$fc38ac80$f4aa0580$@net> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001c01d730b7$fc38ac80$f4aa0580$@net> Message-ID: > And that is why there are SNADs! :D Yes, but remember that the S stands for "Significantly". In Noel's case, yes, We DECnerds would call that a significant difference, but probably not to the general computer techie crowd - they would likely see two almostly completely identical tape readers. The Ebay judge might go either way. SNAD gets abused more than you realize. It is a big problem for sellers. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 18:29:18 2021 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 19:29:18 -0400 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <481b78d1-7edb-567e-c6a0-4e9ac1438d31@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <481b78d1-7edb-567e-c6a0-4e9ac1438d31@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > So ... you trust us enough to take our money, but you don't trust us. The percentage of crooked and dishonest (and just plain stupid) buyers on Ebay is far too uncomfortable. Ebay buyers generally often liken themselves to gleaming polished white marble pillars of truth and justice in the online market. They are not. Ebay does not provide much protection anymore. Sellers must protect themselves. > How does the intention behind the message alter the veracity of the message? We don't know - it is generally a case by case thing. Sometimes fraud is *really* obvious, like when a buyer sends a correction that is clearly wrong, and literally states that the asking price is too high because of the "mistake". > Do you put any comments on the listing of "this description is best > effort" or "buyer is responsible for accuracy"? Do you think anyone reads Terms of Sale? Seriously? Hell, I get buyers that don't even read the descriptions! > What constitutes "a bunch of research time"? 1 minute? 5 minutes? > More time than it took to publish the listing? Maybe. Some of us are very busy, and need every 10 minute chunk of time. Perhaps the ten minutes taken up doing research is not worth as much as those same ten minutes listing another item. > Is there something that random people submitting corrections can do to > make it easier for you such that you are more likely to accept the > correction and update the listing accordingly? Certainly. Citations. Passing a URL through the Ebay system is trickly, to say the least, but leave an obvious pointer, like "Check this document 123-456-78 in bitsavers, page 26". -- Will From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 13 18:39:23 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:39:23 -0700 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <20210413225752.BF2543248E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <001c01d730b7$fc38ac80$f4aa0580$@net> <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20210413225752.BF2543248E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <002401d730be$3c964700$b5c2d500$@net> > > And that is why there are SNADs! :D > > "Systems Network Architecture Distribution Services" ? :) Significantly Not As Described -Ali From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 18:51:17 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 19:51:17 -0400 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 6:15 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I'm slightly amazed at how some eBay sellers react. Take this item: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/154404969351 > > which the seller had listed as a 'PDP-8 PC05'. I sent the person a message > pointing out that it was a PC04 (as shown by the 4 rocker switches, and the > small backplane - PC05's have a larger one to hold more cards). > > They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing! > > Well, I hope the bider really is a PDP-8 owner who wants a PC04... :-) > > Noel > Noel, I went to this guys place and saw the tape reader first hand. Its in better condition than mine. I was tempted to buy it but I was there to pick up an asr 33 teletype I bought from him on ebay. He had the Teletype listed as a ksr, despite the reader right there in the picture. I did not feel obligated to tell him, I just bought it. He clearly and correctly documented the mechanical issue with it, despite getting the name of it wrong. I fixed it this morning before work (related to my cctec post about separating the keyboard from the printer) I'd trust him with this reader and the price is reasonable, assuming it works. He is a general machine repair man, not specifically familiar with computers. I suppose he was not overly interested in exactly what he was selling, assuming the buyer should know. His garage workshop is like a museum. He has a lot of boat motors and interesting gizmos hanging from the ceiling and on shelves. He has a pdp 8e there too. After picking up the Teletype Karen and I went tothe Rhode Island Computer Museum and stayed in Newport for the night. The RICM is chuck full of cool stuff, warehouse style. Bill > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 13 19:01:30 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 17:01:30 -0700 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001c01d730b7$fc38ac80$f4aa0580$@net> Message-ID: <002501d730c1$536e06e0$fa4a14a0$@net> > The Ebay judge might go either way. Nope. The seller will lose. > > SNAD gets abused more than you realize. It is a big problem for > sellers. Well when the attitude is "just let things fly" I am not sure if there is any abuse going on... -Ali From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 13 19:04:19 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 19:04:19 -0500 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <008b01d730c1$b7bc20a0$273461e0$@classiccmp.org> You probably already did it in your initial contact with him Noel, but I would think the thing that would make it stand out and make him change it - tell him a PC05 doesn't connect to a PDP8, it goes with something completely different (a PDP11 ofc, correct?). Given that the title says its for a pdp8 (it isn't if it's a PC05).... I bet the seller would lose a 'not as advertised' battle pretty quickly. J From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 13 20:30:52 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 19:30:52 -0600 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 4/13/21 5:51 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > He had the Teletype listed as a ksr, despite the reader right there > in the picture. My concern as a buyer is when there is a discrepancy, picture, vs listing, I have no way of telling which is correct and incorrect. If the picture is of the item and that's what I want cool. But if the description is correct and I buy based on the picture I'm going to be less than happy. I think the discrepancy is the biggest issue for me. What am I comfortable doing when there is a discrepancy. Frequently, I end up moving on to a different auction. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Apr 13 20:47:26 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:47:26 -0700 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: <008b01d730c1$b7bc20a0$273461e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008b01d730c1$b7bc20a0$273461e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8525b78b-c013-db2d-281f-fe2d66649740@jwsss.com> On 4/13/2021 5:04 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > You probably already did it in your initial contact with him Noel, but I > would think the thing that would make it stand out and make him change it - > tell him a PC05 doesn't connect to a PDP8, it goes with something completely > different (a PDP11 ofc, correct?). > > Given that the title says its for a pdp8 (it isn't if it's a PC05).... I bet > the seller would lose a 'not as advertised' battle pretty quickly. > > J I figure they throw in about every keyword they can.? Some take some time to try, but a lot will throw in keywords to catch searches or watch lists.? Some will throw in PDP with S-100 and heaven knows what else. I've gotten good replies for the last few years when I bother. Sometimes will provide links or other auctions to help them. There was one guy with an id "vintage" something or other (no idea if the current guys on ebay are them) but I got a psychotic full length rant that made me wonder whether the guy was deranged. I never send suggestions on anything then bid, so he didn't have that excuse.? Unfortunately he had a lot of stuff, but I blocked him off after that. He said he reported me to ebay, so I opened an incident an sent his deranged rant.? If he did, nothing came of it that I heard.? No hostile sellers since. I know a friend who sells on epay a lot an has had some fraud.? One has to continuously tune to avoid being screwed by ebay or the buyers that are dishonest.? Makes it complicated for those of us who will make the buyer's whole as far as the agreed upon deal. Jim From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 13 23:30:30 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:30:30 -0600 Subject: eBay sellers In-Reply-To: References: <20210413221504.79F1718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <481b78d1-7edb-567e-c6a0-4e9ac1438d31@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <00434670-d672-1527-cd91-629d096b848c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/13/21 5:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Certainly. Citations. Passing a URL through the Ebay system is trickly, > to say the least, but leave an obvious pointer, like "Check this > document 123-456-78 in bitsavers, page 26". Thank you for the tips. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 10:39:14 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 17:39:14 +0200 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 18:44, Kevin Bowling wrote: > > Linux tends to churn that amount of code in a release. I find it interesting how large systemd has become as well: https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/06/linux_2020_kernel_systemd_code/ I didn't know but I can well believe it. Virtually _any_ 30-40+ year old code is, by modern standards, lightweight and fast. Compared to, say, C++, Ada is a lightweight, clean language. Compared to modern *nix, Multics itself is a sylph-like slip of a thing. One of my personal favourites... there is a lot of word-processor advocacy online now and the one most people praise as The Best Thing EVAH is WordPerfect. I used and supported WordPerfect in the late '80s & early '90s. I never liked it that much. Fast, feature-rich, yes, but a UI one could only love because of Stockholm Syndrome. But I remember 5.x introducing pull-down CUA-type menus and being for me significantly easier to use as a result. And I remember v 6, lambasted as sluggish bloatware at the time, having a graphics-mode GUI on DOS if you wanted. So I found a copy and installed it on PC DOS 7.1 on a Core 2 Duo Thinkpad. On a modern multi-gigahertz x86, it _flies_ along. It's snappy and responsive even in graphics mode, and by modern standards it's tiny. A dozen meg or so. I don't use it much but it's fun to do so occasionally. My main go-to WP on my primary laptop is MS Word 97 for Windows, under WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu. Again, sluggish bloatware when new, but ? century later, lightweight and positively snappy. Does everything I need and more, including the all-important Outline mode. Has proper menus, not a Ribbon. Runs perfectly under WINE including being able to install service releases to get it as current as possible. Same file format as used up to 2003. There are 2 features I know are missing compared to later versions. Seriously, just 2. It has no highlighter (fake yellow marker pen you can drag over text). Who cares? And you can't embed a table inside a cell of another table. That is the complete list of missing features that I know about for the next 3 releases, then the Ribbon came in and I lost all interest. On my Mac I use Word 2011, which is also now obsolete and out of support. Works fine, though, and on macOS, you still have a menu bar and can turn off the Ribbon completely. > The rate of change to Linux literally keeps me up at night during incidents.. but attempting to tame this for an enterprise also pays the bills.. I find it peculiar so many people are ok with this model of computing but the jobs are good for the time being. Agreed. I'm in the same boat: documenting an enterprise Linux distro. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bob at jfcl.com Wed Apr 14 11:33:58 2021 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:33:58 -0700 Subject: XXDP on a really small system? Message-ID: <004f01d7314b$f88b83c0$e9a28b40$@com> I have an 11/03 (unmapped, of course) with 28kW memory and two DLV11s. I'm trying to build an XXDP image on TU58 that I can boot on this system, using an XXDP 2.5 RL02 image and simh. My simh configuration is - CPU 11/03, NOEIS, NOFIS, BEVENT disabled, autoconfiguration enabled, idle disabled . TTI address=17777560-17777563, vector=60, BR4 TTO address=17777564-17777567, vector=64, BR4 TDC controllers=1, address=17776500-17776507, vector=300*, BR4, 2 units . RL RLV12, address=17774400-17774411, vector=160, BR5, 4 units I can boot from the RL02 OK - MEMORY MANAGEMENT UNIT NOT FOUND BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.4 REVISION: D0 BOOTED FROM DL0 28KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152010 TYPE "H" FOR HELP But running UPDAT to create a new system image on the TU58 dies .R UPDAT UPDAT .BIC HALT instruction, PC: 000010 (000012) If I change the CPU to an 11/23 (but keep the same memory and other configuration) then UPDAT works. Is there some issue or limitation in running XXDP on a 11/03? Is it just UPDAT that doesn't work, or are there bigger problems? Thanks Bob From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed Apr 14 15:02:14 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:02:14 -0500 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/1/2021 7:54 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > If you want to make up a large number of MMJ cables using some > original DECconnect cable, here is a listing of a 1000ft spool of > original DEC H8240 cable. Some people have bought some of those spools > and reported that they are original DECconnect branded cable: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/162291819594 I can now verify that this is indeed DEC cable.? Boxed and labelled externally and internally: DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP H8240 QTY:1??????? DATE 5191 Between this and a generic 6-wire silver satin spool (which I also use for model railroading uses), I should be set for life. -- John H. Reinhardt From mosst at SDF.ORG Thu Apr 15 00:17:22 2021 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 05:17:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wanted: DEC H960 cabinet, or similar rack of same size and vintage. Message-ID: Hi All, I'm looking for a H960 to put my 8/e in, either to buy or to trade for something. (PDP-8/11/VAX/Alpha gear, KIM-1??) I'm in South-West England and am happy to collect from mainland UK. I may also be willing to have it shipped internationally. Regards, -Tom From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Apr 15 09:00:06 2021 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 16:00:06 +0200 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88d027c680b82d744d611c6d17ca7f1fb515ee2d.camel@agj.net> ons 2021-04-14 klockan 17:39 +0200 skrev Liam Proven via cctalk: > On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 18:44, Kevin Bowling > wrote: > > > > Linux tends to churn that amount of code in a release.? I find it > > interesting how large systemd has become as well:? > > https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/06/linux_2020_kernel_systemd_code/ > > I didn't know but I can well believe it. Virtually _any_ 30-40+ year > old code is, by modern standards, lightweight and fast. > > Compared to, say, C++, Ada is a lightweight, clean language. Compared > to modern *nix, Multics itself is a sylph-like slip of a thing. > Ha, on my debian system i get more memory available when instead of gnome i instead run e. And when i i got some problem with printing from evolution .... webkitgtk in its sandbox version cant print so now i run webkitgtk inside the normal evolution process.... more memory saved but i'm living a bit more unsafe now.... > One of my personal favourites... there is a lot of word-processor > advocacy online now and the one most people praise as The Best Thing > EVAH is WordPerfect. > > I used and supported WordPerfect in the late '80s & early '90s. I > never liked it that much. Fast, feature-rich, yes, but a UI one could > only love because of Stockholm Syndrome. > FRAME from that era was nice and fast. > But I remember 5.x introducing pull-down CUA-type menus and being for > me significantly easier to use as a result. And I remember v 6, > lambasted as sluggish bloatware at the time, having a graphics-mode > GUI on DOS if you wanted. > > So I found a copy and installed it on PC DOS 7.1 on a Core 2 Duo > Thinkpad. On a modern multi-gigahertz x86, it _flies_ along. It's > snappy and responsive even in graphics mode, and by modern standards > it's tiny. A dozen meg or so. > > I don't use it much but it's fun to do so occasionally. > > My main go-to WP on my primary laptop is MS Word 97 for Windows, > under > WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu. Again, sluggish bloatware when new, but ? > century later, lightweight and positively snappy. Does everything I > need and more, including the all-important Outline mode. Has proper > menus, not a Ribbon. Runs perfectly under WINE including being able > to > install service releases to get it as current as possible. Same file > format as used up to 2003. I had to try to use word 20xx a few years ago .... compared with word 6 (current 1991 on mac) HILFEEEEEE Nowadays I hate being forced to mouse along ... while having a strained right wrist. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Apr 15 09:00:06 2021 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 16:00:06 +0200 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88d027c680b82d744d611c6d17ca7f1fb515ee2d.camel@agj.net> ons 2021-04-14 klockan 17:39 +0200 skrev Liam Proven via cctalk: > On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 18:44, Kevin Bowling > wrote: > > > > Linux tends to churn that amount of code in a release.? I find it > > interesting how large systemd has become as well:? > > https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/06/linux_2020_kernel_systemd_code/ > > I didn't know but I can well believe it. Virtually _any_ 30-40+ year > old code is, by modern standards, lightweight and fast. > > Compared to, say, C++, Ada is a lightweight, clean language. Compared > to modern *nix, Multics itself is a sylph-like slip of a thing. > Ha, on my debian system i get more memory available when instead of gnome i instead run e. And when i i got some problem with printing from evolution .... webkitgtk in its sandbox version cant print so now i run webkitgtk inside the normal evolution process.... more memory saved but i'm living a bit more unsafe now.... > One of my personal favourites... there is a lot of word-processor > advocacy online now and the one most people praise as The Best Thing > EVAH is WordPerfect. > > I used and supported WordPerfect in the late '80s & early '90s. I > never liked it that much. Fast, feature-rich, yes, but a UI one could > only love because of Stockholm Syndrome. > FRAME from that era was nice and fast. > But I remember 5.x introducing pull-down CUA-type menus and being for > me significantly easier to use as a result. And I remember v 6, > lambasted as sluggish bloatware at the time, having a graphics-mode > GUI on DOS if you wanted. > > So I found a copy and installed it on PC DOS 7.1 on a Core 2 Duo > Thinkpad. On a modern multi-gigahertz x86, it _flies_ along. It's > snappy and responsive even in graphics mode, and by modern standards > it's tiny. A dozen meg or so. > > I don't use it much but it's fun to do so occasionally. > > My main go-to WP on my primary laptop is MS Word 97 for Windows, > under > WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu. Again, sluggish bloatware when new, but ? > century later, lightweight and positively snappy. Does everything I > need and more, including the all-important Outline mode. Has proper > menus, not a Ribbon. Runs perfectly under WINE including being able > to > install service releases to get it as current as possible. Same file > format as used up to 2003. I had to try to use word 20xx a few years ago .... compared with word 6 (current 1991 on mac) HILFEEEEEE Nowadays I hate being forced to mouse along ... while having a strained right wrist. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 11:42:42 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:42:42 +0200 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: <88d027c680b82d744d611c6d17ca7f1fb515ee2d.camel@agj.net> References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> <88d027c680b82d744d611c6d17ca7f1fb515ee2d.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 at 16:00, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > Ha, on my debian system i get more memory available when instead of > gnome i instead run e. E as in Enlightenment? I can believe that. I quite liked Bodhi Linux for its take on E, but E is not as configurable as I'd like. E.g. I like a vertical taskbar, like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/fLeAy I'd also like to try that combined with vertical title bars, like wm2: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Wm2.png > And when i i got some problem with printing from evolution .... > webkitgtk in its sandbox version cant print so now i run > webkitgtk inside the normal evolution process.... more memory saved > but i'm living a bit more unsafe now.... O_o > FRAME from that era was nice and fast. As in FrameMaker? I barely know it. Back in the '80s I was a total Aldus PageMaker fanboy. :-) IMHO one of the greatest GUI apps ever written. > I had to try to use word 20xx a few years ago .... compared with word > 6 (current 1991 on mac) HILFEEEEEE Word 5.1a was the classic version of Word for Classic. It's included in the WordPerfect for Mac VM that you can download here: http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/macintosh.html > Nowadays I hate being forced to mouse along ... while having a > strained right wrist. If you want a lightweight but rich DOS wordprocessor that's freeware now, MS Word 5.5 is a free download from MS. https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/pcs-and-clones/15399-ms-word-5-5-for-dos-for-free-legally?15238-MS-Word-5-5-for-DOS-for-FREE-(legally)= -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 15 11:57:41 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 09:57:41 -0700 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> <88d027c680b82d744d611c6d17ca7f1fb515ee2d.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 4/15/21 9:42 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 at 16:00, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > >> FRAME from that era was nice and fast. > As in FrameMaker? I barely know it. Back in the '80s I was a total > Aldus PageMaker fanboy. :-) IMHO one of the greatest GUI apps ever > written. > I've used FrameMaker a lot...it's great for handling large documents and collections of documents.? Used it quite a bit at IBM and handled 1000+ page documents (of course that wasn't all one "source" file). I could never get my head around Word for anything more than 10 pages or so.? Just too hard to deal with everything in massive documents. Now I almost exclusively use LaTeX.? I've found that being able to use my own text editor to actually write the content means I don't have to switch between different notions on how moving around and edit should work.? Using a mark-up language also means I generally have more control on how things appear in the document (something that continually frustrated me with Word especially when dealing with cross references and figures). -- TTFN - Guy From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 12:28:00 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 19:28:00 +0200 Subject: Anyone know ancient versions of XLC? In-Reply-To: References: <821f7dcc-72e6-004b-a149-52542e7578dd@gmail.com> <88d027c680b82d744d611c6d17ca7f1fb515ee2d.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 at 18:57, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I've used FrameMaker a lot...it's great for handling large documents and > collections of documents. Used it quite a bit at IBM and handled 1000+ > page documents (of course that wasn't all one "source" file). ISTM that for DTP, there were 2 competing layout metaphors. One was ideal for single-handed, ad-hoc layouts, and was friendly for unskilled or untrained operators. The other was better for longer documents, for structured docs where everything should look uniform -- long runs of documentation, or long series of magazine issues. The former, the "pasteboard" model, includes PageMaker, MS Publisher, Serif Page+ et al. The other, based on "frames" and "pouring" content into them, includes Ventura Publisher, FrameMaker, Quark Xpress, and I believe Adobe InDesign although I've never seen or tried it, although I've supported all the otghers. > I could never get my head around Word for anything more than 10 pages or > so. Just too hard to deal with everything in massive documents. Outline mode is the key. I did a 220-page illustrated manual in one big document in my last solo tech-writing contract, entirely as a Word outline. From blank page to finished manual in 8 weeks, and 2nd edition in 6 more weeks. Without Outline mode, it would have been next to impossible and would have required elaborate professional tooling that they didn't have. > Using a mark-up language also means I generally have more control > on how things appear in the document (something that continually > frustrated me with Word especially when dealing with cross references > and figures). Fair. Never used LaTeX but in the dayjob I use DocBook XML and AsciiDoctor to the same ends. I don't like them much but they do the job and do it well. It makes all the layout and formatting Somebody Else's Problem -- and even that SEP is 99.9% automated. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 15 15:51:35 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 16:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay sellers Message-ID: <20210415205135.5B87F18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli > Sellers of collectibles and antiques get bombarded with nitpicks and > corrections. Often these are right, but often they are wrong. Yeah, that's why I didn't just assert 'this is wrong, X is right', but I gave them the things to look at so they could verify for themselves that my claim was correct. > Passing a URL through the Ebay system is trickly, to say the least > ... "Check this document 123-456-78 in bitsavers, page 26". Yeah, I didn't try and pass a URL, too hard; (and in any case, a tricky con artist could point to a fake document they had posted). I guess I should have said 'Check the PC05 manual, look on BiSavers in dec/foo/bar to find it, pg. xyz'. > From: Bill Degnan > I went to this guys place and saw the tape reader first hand. Its in > better condition than mine. Oh, I didn't have a problem with the condition; just that it was incorrectly labelled. > From: Jay West > I would think the thing that would make it stand out and make him > change it - tell him a PC05 doesn't connect to a PDP8, it goes with > something completely different (a PDP11 ofc, correct?). Yes, the PC05 is for the PDP-11 (and others): https://gunkies.org/wiki/PC04/PC05_High-Speed_Paper-Tape_Reader/Punch Yes, what I _should_ have done is say 'the PC05 is for the PDP-11; the PC04 (which this is) won't work on a PDP-11. If a PDP-11 owner buys this for his PDP-11, he'll probably by unhappy'. Noel From mdehling at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 08:11:50 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:11:50 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> Message-ID: <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> Dear all, On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 02:13:58PM +0200, Malte Dehling wrote: > I am looking for a version of the VAXSET Software Engineering Tools to > run on (Micro)VMS 4.7. The oldest version I have found so far is > VAXSET010 which requires VMS 5.3 to run (this was on CSD 1991/05.) I was informed of a typo: the version I have is VAXSET100, so v10.0. I am still looking for earlier versions (v8.0 already requires VMS 5.x.) If anyone has an early 1990 (or older) Consolidated Software Distribution CD: that should contain VAXSET v7.0 and I would love to obtain a copy. Or maybe someone still has an old VAXSET TK50 tape? I have working TK50 drives and am happy to pay a reasonable price and deal with tape baking etc if needed. Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 16 12:03:45 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:03:45 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> Message-ID: On 16/04/2021 14:11, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: > I was informed of a typo: the version I have is VAXSET100, so v10.0. I > am still looking for earlier versions (v8.0 already requires VMS 5.x.) > > If anyone has an early 1990 (or older) Consolidated Software > Distribution CD: that should contain VAXSET v7.0 and I would love to > obtain a copy. > > Or maybe someone still has an old VAXSET TK50 tape? I have working TK50 > drives and am happy to pay a reasonable price and deal with tape baking > etc if needed. > > Cheers, > Malte I was going to tell you that I have an early CD that was obviously an early CONDIST dated something like 1992, so you were unlikely to find a pre-1990 CD set. Just to check that my memory wasn't playing tricks I went and looked for it. I stopped looking before finding int because I found AG-MN36D-RE VMS Consolidated Software Disk May 1989 and AG-NC67A-RE VMS Online Documentation Library May 1989 :-) I'll check them out in SIMH later on tonight, but if they look suitable I can probably make the ISOs available via dropbox or similar. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Apr 16 12:24:46 2021 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:24:46 +0100 Subject: GNO and ORCA Pascal In-Reply-To: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with GNO (the UnixLike shell for the Apple 2 GS)... particularly accessing GNO from Pascal. I'm afraid I'm a Turbo Pascal kind of guy... so I don't really get it. There are some of C libraries and C code and what have you... but I need to use Pascal (what I am porting was written in Turbo Pascal)... which compiles and links fine. There are plenty of units that come with it to access things in GSOS, but not under GNO because GNO was some sort of replacement for ORCA shell... Thanks Mark From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Fri Apr 16 19:53:23 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:53:23 -0500 Subject: GNO and ORCA Pascal In-Reply-To: References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> Message-ID: <1ce2ea7238a283f0c431a23526be8fde@yahoo.com> I've recently moved and now have space to actually set up much of my collection and I started with my Apple IIgs. Picked up all the Orca languages and have begin playing around with them but am not an expert with them by any means. There are others with more knowledge about them I'm sure. On 2021-04-16 12:24, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with GNO (the UnixLike shell for the > Apple > 2 GS)... particularly accessing GNO from Pascal. > > I'm afraid I'm a Turbo Pascal kind of guy... so I don't really get it. > There are some of C libraries and C code and what have you... but I > need to > use Pascal (what I am porting was written in Turbo Pascal)... which > compiles and links fine. > > There are plenty of units that come with it to access things in GSOS, > but > not under GNO because GNO was some sort of replacement for ORCA > shell... I have looked at GNO/ME but haven't actually worked with it yet. My understanding is where you can use it in place of the Orca shell, it isn't a 100% compatible drop in replacement. You can run the Orca tools and compilers and such from it without any trouble I believe. What is it you are trying to do with it? I've been trying to think of something that one would do in the language that would be specific to the shell itself. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From mdehling at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 13:38:22 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 20:38:22 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> Message-ID: <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> Hi Antonio, On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 06:03:45PM +0100, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 16/04/2021 14:11, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: > > If anyone has an early 1990 (or older) Consolidated Software > > Distribution CD: that should contain VAXSET v7.0 and I would love to > > obtain a copy. > > Just to check that my memory wasn't playing tricks I went and looked > for it. I stopped looking before finding int because I found > > AG-MN36D-RE VMS Consolidated Software Disk May 1989 > > and > > AG-NC67A-RE VMS Online Documentation Library May 1989 thanks a lot for checking, that looks great! I didn't even know _such_ early versions existed :-) > I'll check them out in SIMH later on tonight, but if they look suitable I > can probably make the ISOs available via dropbox or similar. Whether VAXSET is on there or not, I would be very interested in ISOs of both of these either way! Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Apr 17 02:15:06 2021 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 00:15:06 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> Message-ID: > On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: > > Whether VAXSET is on there or not, I would be very interested in ISOs of > both of these either way! If Antonio does not mind sharing them a bit more widely, I would also like to have ISOs of them. I'm interested in running earlier VMS versions on my 11/730. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X https://www.nf6x.net/ From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Apr 17 04:09:10 2021 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:09:10 +0100 Subject: GNO and ORCA Pascal In-Reply-To: <1ce2ea7238a283f0c431a23526be8fde@yahoo.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <1ce2ea7238a283f0c431a23526be8fde@yahoo.com> Message-ID: 0vv0 s. Picked up all the Orca > languages and have begin playing around with them but am not an expert > with them by any means. There are others with more knowledge about them > I'm sure. > > I started out (when I was a kid) on the PDP-11 at my dad's work (he was an anthropologist at ASU and couldn't use a computer at gunpoint)... and then convinced him to buy an Apple //e. I could never convince him to buy a GS. So, I finally found one in England (moved here 21 years ago). Right now it's just a ROM 3 base unit with no drives or memory expansion. I have all that stuff on order but COVID is making shipping take forever... so for now I'm playing with KEGS I have looked at GNO/ME but haven't actually worked with it yet. My > understanding is where you can use it in place of the Orca shell, it > isn't a 100% compatible drop in replacement. You can run the Orca tools > and compilers and such from it without any trouble I believe. > > What is it you are trying to do with it? I've been trying to think of > something that one would do in the language that would be specific to > the shell itself. > > I've managed to get ORCA Pascal to compile and link.. with a litlle help from Kelvin Sherlock... but I don't want to annoy him too much. The kernel for GNO provides preemptive multitasking. My friend and I wrote a BBS in Turbo Pascal when we were kids... and it was fairly popular in Phoenix Arizona for a while. I wrote a new version of it in Ruby that's multithreaded and thus multiuser... I've never really LIKED Ruby... I also noticed that there isn't really a BBS program that is specific to the GS... and certainly not one that is multi user. So, I'm going to rewrite my multiuser BBS for it but in Pascal. This would be quite a bit easier if I was into C. I suspect that I'm going to have to write my own unit to talk to the Kernel. In theory that shouldn't be too hard, as I have the source to the compiler and the built in units for talking to the toolbox. But, I don't believe in reinventing the wheel for things like this... Take Care, Mark aka John > David Williams > www.trailingedge.com > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Apr 17 10:53:49 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:53:49 -0500 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> Message-ID: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> On 4/17/2021 2:15 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Malte Dehling via cctalk wrote: >> >> Whether VAXSET is on there or not, I would be very interested in ISOs of >> both of these either way! > If Antonio does not mind sharing them a bit more widely, I would also like to have ISOs of them. I'm interested in running earlier VMS versions on my 11/730. > I too would be interested if it is possible to get disk images of these two CDs. -- John H. Reinhardt From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 17 11:24:06 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:24:06 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> On 17/04/2021 16:53, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 4/17/2021 2:15 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Malte Dehling via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> Whether VAXSET is on there or not, I would be very interested in >>> ISOs of >>> both of these either way! >> If Antonio does not mind sharing them a bit more widely, I would also >> like to have ISOs of them. I'm interested in running earlier VMS >> versions on my 11/730. >> > I too would be interested if it is possible to get disk images of > these two CDs. > I'll make them available to all. May 1989 wouldn't load up at all in the DVD drive. When I looked at the data side they were very badly scuffed. July 1989 and November 1989 look better but don't read completely. I've tried some CD cleaning solution I have and I've also tried a different drive (and a different OS!). I'll try them out on SIMH and if they're even partially useful, I'll post them. They should be backup savesets, so it should be easy to tell if those have been corrupted or not with BACKUP/ANALYSE. If anyone has any suggestions for how to clean CDs to recover data, I'm all ears. These came out of DEC and were probably dropped off in my cube (as the group was being sold off to Cabletron) after years of kicking around and being used as coasters etc. The ones that I was on a subscription list were looked after and still work :-) (but they're V6 onwards iirc). I suppose that I should start to archive those too, but it will take some time. I should be able to resurrect my SIMH config tonight/tomorrow and then I can test them and put them up somewhere. Any thoughts about what to provide for each one? So far ...: ?the ISO (with SHA256 or similar) ?a scan of the CD ?a README with the CD title and whether it read error free or not: in the latter case a dnesg snippet. Anything else worth adding while I'm at it? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Apr 17 12:03:19 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:03:19 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> On Apr 17, 2021, at 9:24 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > If anyone has any suggestions for how to clean CDs to recover data, I'm all ears. Do you have access to a Record Store that deals in used CDs? I know one of our local ones used to have a machine for resurfacing CDs, at the time, I didn?t need to make use of the service. Another option might be used Video Game stores. Zane From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 17 12:57:05 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:57:05 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 4/17/21 1:03 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 17, 2021, at 9:24 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> >> If anyone has any suggestions for how to clean CDs to recover data, I'm all ears. > > Do you have access to a Record Store that deals in used CDs? I know one of our local ones used to have a machine for resurfacing CDs, at the time, I didn?t need to make use of the service. Another option might be used Video Game stores. > I have used BonAmi to polish scratches on music CDs with considerable success. bill From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 17 13:30:32 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 19:30:32 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <552555f1-888e-6dbb-33d4-a84a21f7e26c@ntlworld.com> On 17/04/2021 18:03, Zane Healy wrote: > On Apr 17, 2021, at 9:24 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk > > wrote: >> >> If anyone has any suggestions for how to clean CDs to recover data, >> I'm all ears. > > Do you have access to a Record Store that deals in used CDs? ?I know > one of our local ones used to have ?a machine for resurfacing CDs, at > the time, I didn?t need to make use of the service. ?Another option > might be used Video Game stores. Thanks for that, I didn't realise that such a service even existed. There's a GAME in the Westgate in Oxford and the GAME website mentions CD cleaning for games, so I might call and check to see if they have the machine. ?3 per disc, so it perhaps might be worth trying on one. When I hold the CD up to the light there are definite pin pricks where I can see the light shining through so I rather suspect that there are some points that are unrecoverable. So maybe not. I also happened across two youtube videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpcd-5fd9nY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNV7mDfWuWI) where people do the same sort of thing by hand. I happen to have some 3000 grit wet-and-dry available. I might have a go at that too, although I think I should find a data CD that I don't care about, rough it up and see if I can "unrough it up". Pity I threw away all those AOL CDs years ago :-) Actually, I suspect I have a number of duplicate MSDN CDs, so those might do for experimentation. So far I've just tried using dd to recover the data but perhaps I should try to find something that won't give up when the OS reports an unreadable sector. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 17 13:35:41 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 11:35:41 -0700 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <552555f1-888e-6dbb-33d4-a84a21f7e26c@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> <552555f1-888e-6dbb-33d4-a84a21f7e26c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 4/17/21 11:30 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > So far I've just tried using dd to recover the data but perhaps I should try to find something that won't give up when the OS reports an > unreadable sector. Anyone have any suggestions? ddrescue From mdehling at gmail.com Sat Apr 17 14:29:29 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 21:29:29 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> <552555f1-888e-6dbb-33d4-a84a21f7e26c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20210417192929.4plbsux3zxvxcotd@x230> On Sat, Apr 17, 2021 at 11:35:41AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/17/21 11:30 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > So far I've just tried using dd to recover the data but perhaps I should > > try to find something that won't give up when the OS reports an > > unreadable sector. Anyone have any suggestions? > > > ddrescue I agree with the suggestion. I think it's worth trying this before anything else. If anything can be read without further work, ddrescue should do the trick. Of course it helps to test with different drives, too, like you already did. Sorry this turned into more work than expected, and thanks again for your effort! -- Malte Dehling From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 17 14:33:59 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:33:59 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> <552555f1-888e-6dbb-33d4-a84a21f7e26c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <03721ff9-b2af-1338-8a99-703f43733062@ntlworld.com> On 17/04/2021 19:35, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/17/21 11:30 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > >> So far I've just tried using dd to recover the data but perhaps I >> should try to find something that won't give up when the OS reports >> an unreadable sector. Anyone have any suggestions? > > > ddrescue > I guess I should've remembered that one, thanks! So has this just lost ~3KiB? "pct rescued" suggests that it did quite well. Does "bad areas" mean one bad sector (2048 bytes)? $ ddrescue -r5 -v /dev/sr1 JUL89DIST.iso JUL89DIST.map GNU ddrescue 1.23 About to copy 623247 kBytes from '/dev/sr1' to 'JUL89DIST.iso' ??? Starting positions: infile = 0 B,? outfile = 0 B ??? Copy block size: 128 sectors?????? Initial skip size: 128 sectors Sector size: 512 Bytes Press Ctrl-C to interrupt ???? ipos:? 623246 kB, non-trimmed:??????? 0 B, current rate:?????? 0 B/s ???? opos:? 623246 kB, non-scraped:??????? 0 B, average rate:?? 1303 kB/s non-tried:??????? 0 B,? bad-sector:???? 4096 B, error rate:????? 73 B/s ? rescued:? 623243 kB,?? bad areas:??????? 1, run time:????? 7m 58s pct rescued:?? 99.99%, read errors:?????? 49, remaining time:???????? n/a ????????????????????????????? time since last successful read:????? 5m 11s Finished This is what ls sees (I renamed the ISO to match what it actually is): -rw-rw-r-- 1 antonioc antonioc 623243264 Apr 17 20:14 CDROM-AG-MN36E-RE-1989-07-VMS-CONDIST.iso (That happens to be exactly the same result as dd). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From mdehling at gmail.com Sat Apr 17 14:55:37 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 21:55:37 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <03721ff9-b2af-1338-8a99-703f43733062@ntlworld.com> References: <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> <552555f1-888e-6dbb-33d4-a84a21f7e26c@ntlworld.com> <03721ff9-b2af-1338-8a99-703f43733062@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20210417195537.mprcd5ark5wwckeb@x230> On Sat, Apr 17, 2021 at 08:33:59PM +0100, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 17/04/2021 19:35, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/17/21 11:30 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > > > So far I've just tried using dd to recover the data but perhaps I > > > should try to find something that won't give up when the OS reports > > > an unreadable sector. Anyone have any suggestions? > > > > > > ddrescue > > > > I guess I should've remembered that one, thanks! > > > So has this just lost ~3KiB? "pct rescued" suggests that it did quite well. > Does "bad areas" mean one bad sector (2048 bytes)? > > > $ ddrescue -r5 -v /dev/sr1 JUL89DIST.iso JUL89DIST.map > GNU ddrescue 1.23 > About to copy 623247 kBytes from '/dev/sr1' to 'JUL89DIST.iso' > ??? Starting positions: infile = 0 B,? outfile = 0 B > ??? Copy block size: 128 sectors?????? Initial skip size: 128 sectors > Sector size: 512 Bytes > > Press Ctrl-C to interrupt > ???? ipos:? 623246 kB, non-trimmed:??????? 0 B, current rate:?????? 0 B/s > ???? opos:? 623246 kB, non-scraped:??????? 0 B, average rate:?? 1303 kB/s > non-tried:??????? 0 B,? bad-sector:???? 4096 B, error rate:????? 73 B/s > ? rescued:? 623243 kB,?? bad areas:??????? 1, run time:????? 7m 58s > pct rescued:?? 99.99%, read errors:?????? 49, remaining time:???????? n/a > ????????????????????????????? time since last successful read:????? 5m 11s > Finished > > This is what ls sees (I renamed the ISO to match what it actually is): > > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 antonioc antonioc 623243264 Apr 17 20:14 > CDROM-AG-MN36E-RE-1989-07-VMS-CONDIST.iso > > (That happens to be exactly the same result as dd). That looks pretty good already! Can you try with "-b 2048 -d" for direct disc access and maybe once more with "-R" for reverse? Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 17 17:37:39 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:37:39 -0500 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> On 04/17/2021 11:24 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > If anyone has any suggestions for how to clean CDs to > recover data, I'm all ears. > If by the "data side" you mean the clear side the CD is read from, those can be polished with toothpaste or plastic polish. Modern CD/DVD drives are much better at reading poor quality disks. If the data layer is scratched, they are likely unrecoverable. That is the side with the label on it, and the data layer is only a few thousandths below the label. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 04:59:44 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:59:44 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <65104D7F-EB21-4022-BDB1-32955C187B88@avanthar.com> <552555f1-888e-6dbb-33d4-a84a21f7e26c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 at 20:35, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > ddrescue Agreed. Important note: `ddrescue` is the newer tool and is more modern than either `dd_rescue` or `gddrescue`. They are *NOT* the same tools under different names. GNU ddrescue or just `ddrescue` It is the preferred choice and should be tried first, but if you encounter problems you can try the older `dd_rescue` or `gddrescue` if you wish. https://askubuntu.com/questions/211578/whats-the-difference-between-ddrescue-gddrescue-and-dd-rescue -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 18 12:00:02 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:00:02 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> On 17/04/2021 23:37, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/17/2021 11:24 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> If anyone has any suggestions for how to clean CDs to recover data, >> I'm all ears. >> > If by the "data side" you mean the clear side the CD is read from, > those can be polished with toothpaste or plastic polish.? Modern > CD/DVD drives are much better at reading poor quality disks. I'm using a seven year old DVD-RW drive and a similarly aged DVD-ROM drive. The results are the same in either case. > > If the data layer is scratched, they are likely unrecoverable. That is > the side with the label on it, and the data layer is only a few > thousandths below the label. Two of them may well be completely unrecoverable. The others that I've tried with 1989 date codes are 99+% recoverable so I'm hoping that the missing sector or so doesn't upset ODS-2 too much. If I get the time, I'll try them out tonight. The May 1989 CONDIST (and the Mar 1989 CONOLD) are both currently completely unreadable. I'll try one of them in the GAME polishing machine, assuming they actually have a polishing machine nearby. If there is no such machine nearby then I'll try the 3000 grit sandpaper as there's not really much to lose. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Apr 18 15:59:42 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:59:42 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Message-ID: Hi all, I'm reassembling an PDP-11/34 in a BA11-K chassis right now, and am a little puzzled by the front mounting brackets (the ones that hold a KY11-L of either sort on the bottom, and a half trim-panel on the top). In particular, on the bottom half, the available place for screws to go to attach the bracket to the chassis is nearly completely blinded by an overhanging tab. The engineering drawings I've seen are unfortunately not very clear on this... Anybody have an 11/34 in a BA11-K and care to take a peek and tell me how the hardware here is properly configured? (Hex head instead of DEC's ubiquitous Phillips truss, to allow tightening from the side? Machine screw from back, and a nut on the front? Other?) cheers, --FritzM. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Apr 18 18:57:05 2021 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 16:57:05 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468D6678-D67B-4F03-B0F2-2BDCDF8BA102@nf6x.net> I'm not at home with the machine now, but if I remember (or get reminded in the next day or three), I'll try to take some pictures of my PDP-11/34A to help you out. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X https://www.nf6x.net/ From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Apr 18 19:25:22 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:25:22 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: <468D6678-D67B-4F03-B0F2-2BDCDF8BA102@nf6x.net> References: <468D6678-D67B-4F03-B0F2-2BDCDF8BA102@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <40E1E2EA-E35F-419A-B624-C8347417E904@fritzm.org> > On Apr 18, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > I'm not at home with the machine now, but if I remember (or get reminded in the next day or three), I'll try to take some pictures of my PDP-11/34A to help you out. Thanks, Mark. I'll get some pictures of the brackets I have, too -- maybe they aren't the standard/correct ones for an 11/34... From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 18 21:40:42 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 22:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Message-ID: <20210419024042.492D518C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > I'm reassembling an PDP-11/34 in a BA11-K chassis right now, and am a > little puzzled by the front mounting brackets (the ones that hold a > KY11-L of either sort on the bottom, and a half trim-panel on the top). > In particular, on the bottom half, the available place for screws to go > to attach the bracket to the chassis is nearly completely blinded by an > overhanging tab. > .. > Anybody have an 11/34 in a BA11-K and care to take a peek and tell me > how the hardware here is properly configured? Well, I have an KY11-LA mounted on a BA11-K; the KY11-LA and -LB use the same bezel, and should have identical hardware. There's an intermediate 10" or so high adapter piece (one either side, of course) mounted to the KY11-L. (That's attached to the KY11-L with short machine screws which are inserted from the rear, and go into tapped holes in the KY11-L bezel.) That piece attaches to the BA11-K with different hardware at the top and bottom: on the bottom, a single 1" or so machine screw (#8, I think) goes through the vertical tab on the side at the front of the BA11, to a tapped hole in the adapter piece. At the top, a pair of short countersunk machine screws (#10, I think - definitely larger than the 1" machine screw at the bottom) attach a pair (one each side) of those black plastic mounting widgets which have a pair of balls on stalks; those go into holes on the back of the blank panels, and those screw also hold the adapter piece to the BA11-L at the top. (I looked for the DEC formal name for those pieces, but couldn't find it.) > I'll get some pictures of the brackets I have, too -- maybe they aren't > the standard/correct ones for an 11/34... I'll take a look. I'm too burned out (COVID long haul) at the moment to take pictures or do a drawing right at the moment; if needed, I can do it tomorrow (or so). Noel PS: A while back you were after measurements on the KY11-L power knob; did you ever get those: If not, I've got one, and can measure it. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Apr 19 00:45:18 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 22:45:18 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: <20210419024042.492D518C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210419024042.492D518C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 18, 2021, at 7:40 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > There's an intermediate 10" or so high adapter piece (one either side, of course) mounted to the KY11-L... on the bottom, a single 1" or so machine screw (#8, I think) goes through the vertical tab on the side at the front of the BA11, to a tapped hole in the adapter piece. Thanks for the details, Noel! Pictures of my brackets should be viewable at https://photos.app.goo.gl/wni3mDAQHozK9Ho27 The interesting/confusing bit for me is the bottom part... In the second picture you can see that my brackets just have a punched oval hole at the bottom, and not a "tapped hole" per your description above. The tabs on the chassis to which these brackets mount all have #10 press fit threaded bushings. The bit at the top, with the plastic pieces (called out on the parts lists as "latch, molding") and countersunk #10 screws is clear, and looks like what you describe. > I'll take a look. I'm too burned out (COVID long haul) at the moment to take > pictures or do a drawing right at the moment; if needed, I can do it tomorrow > (or so). Something a lot of us are going to have to face in the upcoming months/years, it seems -- wishing you best! > PS: A while back you were after measurements on the KY11-L power knob; > did you ever get those: If not, I've got one, and can measure it. I did not get exact measurements, however, I did find this part: https://www.millsupply.com/knob-fan-speed-grumman-olson-53777.php?p=324629 ...which turns out to be a very suitable replacement: bezel diameter and post height are just right, marking lines up nicely with the panel, good feel and very sturdy. cheers, --FritzM. From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 02:38:49 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 03:38:49 -0400 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: References: <20210419024042.492D518C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <02de01d734ef$0a367c50$1ea374f0$@gmail.com> Apparently DEC redid their design; my entire assembly is quite different and "it just works". I imagine that you aren't the first to be flummoxed by their original design. In my6 case there is no bump-out sub-assembly spot-welded to the plate, instead there is a separate wide-flat U bracket where the ends attach above/below to the plate (which is threaded) and the middle attaches forward to the console (which is threaded). The wide-flat U bracket is first attached to the flat-plate (chassis in any position). The flat-plate has a wide notch aligned with the attached wide-flat U bracket center to allow the console to be screwed in from the back (chassis necessarily extended). The 3-U filler panel is attached with Velcro to the flat plate; no ball-breaking required :->. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fritz Mueller via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 1:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Noel Chiappa Subject: Re: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? > On Apr 18, 2021, at 7:40 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > There's an intermediate 10" or so high adapter piece (one either side, of course) mounted to the KY11-L... on the bottom, a single 1" or so machine screw (#8, I think) goes through the vertical tab on the side at the front of the BA11, to a tapped hole in the adapter piece. Thanks for the details, Noel! Pictures of my brackets should be viewable at https://photos.app.goo.gl/wni3mDAQHozK9Ho27 The interesting/confusing bit for me is the bottom part... In the second picture you can see that my brackets just have a punched oval hole at the bottom, and not a "tapped hole" per your description above. The tabs on the chassis to which these brackets mount all have #10 press fit threaded bushings. The bit at the top, with the plastic pieces (called out on the parts lists as "latch, molding") and countersunk #10 screws is clear, and looks like what you describe. ... cheers, --FritzM. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Apr 19 02:40:16 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 07:40:16 +0000 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this what you mean Fritz? www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/pdp11-34general.html at the bottom. Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk Verzonden: zondag 18 april 2021 23:00 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Hi all, I'm reassembling an PDP-11/34 in a BA11-K chassis right now, and am a little puzzled by the front mounting brackets (the ones that hold a KY11-L of either sort on the bottom, and a half trim-panel on the top). In particular, on the bottom half, the available place for screws to go to attach the bracket to the chassis is nearly completely blinded by an overhanging tab. The engineering drawings I've seen are unfortunately not very clear on this... Anybody have an 11/34 in a BA11-K and care to take a peek and tell me how the hardware here is properly configured? (Hex head instead of DEC's ubiquitous Phillips truss, to allow tightening from the side? Machine screw from back, and a nut on the front? Other?) cheers, --FritzM. From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 03:32:05 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 04:32:05 -0400 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02ed01d734f6$7b55d1e0$720175a0$@gmail.com> Nope. That's what mine looks like. His has some weird spot-welded bracket, presumably an earlier design. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 3:40 AM To: Fritz Mueller; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Is this what you mean Fritz? www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/pdp11-34general.html at the bottom. Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk Verzonden: zondag 18 april 2021 23:00 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Hi all, I'm reassembling an PDP-11/34 in a BA11-K chassis right now, and am a little puzzled by the front mounting brackets (the ones that hold a KY11-L of either sort on the bottom, and a half trim-panel on the top). In particular, on the bottom half, the available place for screws to go to attach the bracket to the chassis is nearly completely blinded by an overhanging tab. The engineering drawings I've seen are unfortunately not very clear on this... Anybody have an 11/34 in a BA11-K and care to take a peek and tell me how the hardware here is properly configured? (Hex head instead of DEC's ubiquitous Phillips truss, to allow tightening from the side? Machine screw from back, and a nut on the front? Other?) cheers, --FritzM. From lee.gleason at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 10:37:39 2021 From: lee.gleason at comcast.net (Lee Gleason) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:37:39 -0500 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: <32f2a168-0559-5a3f-cb4a-1f8a2aad764d@comcast.net> ? Well, I managed to scrape together some more bucks and get this RSX11D labeled disk. Although James Fehlinger's recent release of a working RSX11D distro reduces the need for it, I'd still like to see what's on this disk. Does anyone have an actual, physical, assembled, currently working? RK05 drive that could read it in for me? -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net On 3/8/2021 11:42 AM, Lee Gleason wrote: > On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >>/On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: />>//>>>/?? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this > month />>/I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email > would be helpful />>/this is way more than I can afford as well. / > >He listed a 11D utilities source disk over the weekend, so that is on its way now too. > >I asked and he says he doesn't have any more 'red labeled' DEC disk packs. > > Did you notice this auction? Looks like not all of his RSX11D stuff is red labelled. This one looks like it might hold a running system. > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-RK05-RSX-11D-64K-DEC-Digital-PDP/353410808160?hash=item5248ecf960:g:IwQAAOSwge9gQ7Zh > > -- > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lee.gleason at comcast.net From web at loomcom.com Mon Apr 19 11:33:42 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:33:42 -0700 Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? Message-ID: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> Sort of an odd request, but I have some LK201-AA keyboards that have (of course) not got their little black riser feet any more. I don't think they've ever had them while in my possession, in fact. If anyone has one, and has the time and interest, could you do me a big favor and take measurements of them for me? I would like to 3D print some replacements, so getting the outer dimension is the most critical part (though I can always measure the inner dimension of the hole they fit into, too), along with the protrusion of the two clips that fit into the key of the hole on the bottom of the LK201 keyboard. I have good pictures of them, just not dimensions, so I think once I know the size of the critical bits, designing and printing them shouldn't be too difficult. Thanks, -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From mdehling at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 11:47:03 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:47:03 +0200 Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? In-Reply-To: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 09:33:42AM -0700, Seth J. Morabito via cctalk wrote: > Sort of an odd request, but I have some LK201-AA keyboards that have (of > course) not got their little black riser feet any more. I don't think > they've ever had them while in my possession, in fact. > > If anyone has one, and has the time and interest, could you do me a big > favor and take measurements of them for me? I would like to 3D print > some replacements, so getting the outer dimension is the most critical > part (though I can always measure the inner dimension of the hole they > fit into, too), along with the protrusion of the two clips that fit into > the key of the hole on the bottom of the LK201 keyboard. > > I have good pictures of them, just not dimensions, so I think once I > know the size of the critical bits, designing and printing them > shouldn't be too difficult. I have one (yes, one) of these little feet. Let me see if I can find it... Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From web at loomcom.com Mon Apr 19 13:14:57 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 11:14:57 -0700 Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? In-Reply-To: <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> References: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> Message-ID: <877dkyjg3q.fsf@loomcom.com> Malte Dehling writes: > On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 09:33:42AM -0700, Seth J. Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > I have one (yes, one) of these little feet. Let me see if I can find > it... Thanks Malte, I appreciate it! > Cheers, > Malte -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Apr 19 18:50:21 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 16:50:21 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: <02ed01d734f6$7b55d1e0$720175a0$@gmail.com> References: <02ed01d734f6$7b55d1e0$720175a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Paul, Henk! Yup, it sure looks like there was more than one design for this... From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Apr 19 20:19:27 2021 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 21:19:27 -0400 Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? In-Reply-To: <877dkyjg3q.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> <877dkyjg3q.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <1f99b55f-16ed-6cd8-b4d7-d77b20880b88@rickmurphy.net> Height 27.38 mm (1.07 in) Diameter 13.36 mm at the base (closed end), 13mm at the open end (hard to measure as it's easily deformed). Ear slots 5.5 mm wide Ears 2.17 mm wide, 11.3 high (the tooth-shaped part only). ??? -Rick On 4/19/2021 2:14 PM, Seth J. Morabito via cctalk wrote: > Malte Dehling writes: > >> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 09:33:42AM -0700, Seth J. Morabito via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have one (yes, one) of these little feet. Let me see if I can find >> it... > Thanks Malte, I appreciate it! > >> Cheers, >> Malte > -Seth From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Apr 20 04:08:33 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 02:08:33 -0700 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <32f2a168-0559-5a3f-cb4a-1f8a2aad764d@comcast.net> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <32f2a168-0559-5a3f-cb4a-1f8a2aad764d@comcast.net> Message-ID: <45D78462-47D2-45C8-98AE-DFDD4365D4AF@fritzm.org> > On Apr 19, 2021, at 8:37 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have an actual, physical, assembled, currently working RK05 drive that could read it in for me? Hi Lee -- I have a currently working RK05 attached to an (also currently working) 11/45, and would be willing to give this a go for you? I am in the SF Bay Area (Oakland) -- DM me to coordinate details is you wish? cheers, --FritzM. From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Tue Apr 20 05:37:45 2021 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:37:45 +0100 Subject: FTAG: 42U Rack Cabinet, flat packed for collection [London, UK] Message-ID: <0a3b8a83-ab65-218e-40a9-15af5cfba424@andrewnesbit.org> Hello all! I am starting a new job next week and returning to a field where my roots are (multimedia engineering, signal processing, etc). Therefore I am vacating my studio workshop and ending a few projects I was working on until recently. I have a lot of industrial and enterprise server hardware to sell or give away FTAG (free to a good home). FTAG: Toten GS Cabinet, 42u, 1000 mm Deep, 800mm Wide, 3 Fixed Shelfs + 2 Fan Units + Cable Management 800mm wide which is easier to work with than a 600mm. However being 1000mm deep it does it mean you can add 670mm servers. It's a relatively large cabinet so you can fit pretty much most rack-mountable servers. It is packaged as a flat-packaged self-assemble rack cabinet in five large, flat-packaged, boxes. I will of course help move them from my office to your van (I recommend collection with a van or courier with van). This item is among the first things I'm giving away because I need to free up some room. This will make it easier to catalog and sell/give away. I will be advertising other items too in the next few days. Post code: N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale) Any recommendations for other mailing lists or web forums to advertize this offer are welcome too. Thank you all!! Kind regards, Andrew From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 16:56:13 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:56:13 -0500 Subject: Apple 3.5" drive issue References: <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047@yahoo.com> Moved recently and finally have space to set up the collection and play with it. I've set up my Apple IIgs and a Macintosh Plus and in testing they are still working but while doing so I've noticed an issue with the 3.5" drives. I have an Apple Superdrive and 4 Apple 3.5 Drives on the IIgs and where they all work as far as reading and writing, only the Superdrive can actually eject the disks. The Mac Plus has the internal drive and an external Apple 800K drive, both of which work except not being able to eject disks either. So out of 7 drives, I have one that doesn't need a paperclip to eject the disk. Haven't opened them up to look at them yet, wanted to see if this is common and suggestions on possible causes to check. Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 17:14:27 2021 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:14:27 +0000 Subject: Apple 3.5" drive issue In-Reply-To: <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047@yahoo.com> References: <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047.ref@yahoo.com>, <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047@yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you can hear the eject motor, you may want to inspect the eject gear. I know I?ve had to replace them on both of my //gs drives. They?re 3D printed and I think I found them on eBay or one of the 3D services. I forget. I do remember it was $15 for 2. http://cini.classiccmp.org/ Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of David Williams via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 5:56:13 PM To: CCTalk Subject: Apple 3.5" drive issue Moved recently and finally have space to set up the collection and play with it. I've set up my Apple IIgs and a Macintosh Plus and in testing they are still working but while doing so I've noticed an issue with the 3.5" drives. I have an Apple Superdrive and 4 Apple 3.5 Drives on the IIgs and where they all work as far as reading and writing, only the Superdrive can actually eject the disks. The Mac Plus has the internal drive and an external Apple 800K drive, both of which work except not being able to eject disks either. So out of 7 drives, I have one that doesn't need a paperclip to eject the disk. Haven't opened them up to look at them yet, wanted to see if this is common and suggestions on possible causes to check. Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 20 18:14:31 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 19:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Message-ID: <20210420231431.0AB8018C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Pictures of my brackets should be viewable at > https://photos.app.goo.gl/wni3mDAQHozK9Ho27 I couldn't get them to display on my modern Window laptop, using either the Edge or Explorer browsers. I had to get my wife to show them to me on her Apple laptop. Not a great site to use for photos. > The interesting/confusing bit for me is the bottom part... In the > second picture you can see that my brackets just have a punched oval > hole at the bottom, and not a "tapped hole" per your description above. Odd. The adapters on mine look _almost_ identical to yours, but _definitly_ have a #8 press fit threaded bushing at the bottom. Then there are a pair of holes in the folded-over bit, and a pair of machine screws go through superimposed holes in the flat part, and into tapped holes in the KY11-L bezel, which hold the adapter to the bezel. The 1" long #8 machine screw then holds the adapter to the tabs in the BA11-K. To do the other mounting hardware, in Henk's picture, there's a flat metal plate, with i) a hole in each end, and ii) a threaded hole in the middle. Two machine screws (#8, I thihk) hold the flat plate to the bezel, then another screw (#10, maybe) holds that U-shaped piece in Henk's picture to the flat piece, and then a pair of #10 screws hold that to the tabs in the BA11-K. (All machine screws above face forward.) >> I'm too burned out (COVID long haul) at the moment > Something a lot of us are going to have to face in the upcoming > months/years, it seems -- wishing you best! Hey, it could be worse! :-) Has the classic computers commuinity lost anyone to COVID? I know we've lost a few in the last year, but I don't recall if any were COVID. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Apr 20 18:34:47 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:34:47 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: <20210420231431.0AB8018C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210420231431.0AB8018C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the info, Noel. There seem to be several small oddities with this cabinet (there was also a puzzle I posted about here a while back, related to securing the power monitor board; it turned out with that one that this cabinet is missing some internal mounting tabs that other folks' cabinets seem to have.) > On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:14 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> Pictures of my brackets should be viewable at >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/wni3mDAQHozK9Ho27 > > I couldn't get them to display on my modern Window laptop, using either the > Edge or Explorer browsers. I had to get my wife to show them to me on her > Apple laptop. Not a great site to use for photos. Wow, sorry about that... Do folks here have an alternative service they like/recommend for sharing linked photos to the list? cheers, --FritzM. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 20 18:59:18 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 19:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Message-ID: <20210420235918.BDF3718C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> From: Fritz Mueller >> my brackets just have a punched oval hole at the bottom, and not a >> "tapped hole" per your description above. > The adapters on mine look _almost_ identical to yours, but _definitly_ > have a #8 press fit threaded bushing at the bottom. Now that I've thought about it for a bit, I wonder if you can use a nut-and-washer in place of the press fit threaded bushing at the bottom (but otherwise all the hardware,and insertion directions, will be the same); it will be kind of difficult to get the nut in there with the KY11-L pressed up to the front of the BA11-K (which is probably why they went to the press fit threaded bushing) - maybe hold it with a pair of needle-nose? Noel PS: Thanks for the URL for the knob; I'm going to order a couple of spares (the DEC originals have a tendency to break). From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Apr 20 19:15:56 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 17:15:56 -0700 Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? In-Reply-To: <20210420235918.BDF3718C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210420235918.BDF3718C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Now that I've thought about it for a bit, I wonder if you can use a > nut-and-washer in place of the press fit threaded bushing at the bottom (but > otherwise all the hardware,and insertion directions, will be the same); it > will be kind of difficult to get the nut in there with the KY11-L pressed up > to the front of the BA11-K (which is probably why they went to the press fit > threaded bushing) - maybe hold it with a pair of needle-nose? Yeah, two solutions come to mind -- the one you mention here with nut and washer, or inserting a hex-head machine screw in the other direction. Either the nut or the hex-head screw could then be secured with a small combination wrench. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 20 20:37:12 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 18:37:12 -0700 Subject: Might be the wrong forum to ask References: Message-ID: I have some old stuff, that's not really computer stuff, so this might be the wrong forum to ask. But it might be the right people. 1. Sears Model 564.21600300 monaural portable tape cassette player, with external mic and switch. It works, but it needs a new spindle belt. Tape plays, but only the capstan advances it, so it gets tangled up inside the box. I found a 5v power cube that works with it, even though it says it wants 6v. 2. Sony SVR-2000 Tivo DVR. It appears to work, but I don't have the remote, so it doesn't do anything other than cycle through its warnings about not having been connected to the telephone and made the monthly call to collect the fee. 3. Tivo Series 2 DT Digital Video Recorder, model TCD649080. Says "Welcome! Powering Up..." but I waited for half an hour and it didn't do anything else. It was connected to my network (the lights on the RJ- 45 socket were blinking) but my router couldn't see it. I have the remote for this. Any of these are yours for the price of shipping -- or local pickup in 91214. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 20 20:39:40 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how? Message-ID: <20210421013940.1882718C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: From: Fritz Mueller > two solutions come to mind -- the one you mention here with nut and > washer, or inserting a hex-head machine screw in the other direction. > Either the nut or the hex-head screw could then be secured with a small > combination wrench. Well, if you put the bolt in first (which you'd kind of have to do, if going from front to back, with the adapter already mounted to the KY11-L), you'd have to hold it in place while you offer the KY11-L up to the BA11-K. Which was why I was originally thinking, put the bolt in in the other direction, which you can do after you put the KY11-L+adapter in place. But that brings up another idea: put the bolt in place (on the adapter), use a first (thin) nut (with washer, if necessary) to hold it in place, then bolt the adapter to the KY11-L bezel, then mount the whole works up to the BA11-K. Not sure which would work better. I'd probably go with the 'pointing forward' bolt, and use a lock-washer (or one of those nuts with integral lock-washer), and then you can mostly tighten with a Phillips driver from the rear. But the extra washer might be easier to put together (if it doesn't push the KY11-L bezel too far forward). Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 03:36:42 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:36:42 +0100 Subject: Photo Sharing (Was RE: DEC BA11-K KY11-L mounting brackets -- how?) Message-ID: <1f8a01d73689$74ac5730$5e050590$@gmail.com> > Wow, sorry about that... Do folks here have an alternative service they > like/recommend for sharing linked photos to the list? > They work fine for me in the "New" Edge, Chrome and Firefox. Noel, do you have the updated Chromium based Edge or "Legacy" edge ? Not sure why they don't work for Noel in edge. If anyone still has the old now called "Legacy" Microsoft Edge note it is no longer supported or updated and its probably time to ditch it ... https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/9/22321779/microsoft-edge-legacy-spartan-bro wser-support-ended In my experience some one has issues with every photo sharing site I have used. > cheers, > --FritzM. > > Dave From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 21 03:49:55 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:49:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Need a BASIC expert Message-ID: Hi, I'm trying to find out if the BASIC dialect that was available for the MINCAL computers (aboutn 1971) was something derived from another "system" or whether it was an own dialect. Some characteristic instructions that I can't find somewhere else are: - Formatted output with PRINT FOR() Example: PRINT FOR(F5.0)500.1 - Computed GOTO with GOTO OF n1,n2,... Example: GOTO A+B+1 OF 100,20,50 - Presence of "DEF FN", lack of RESTORE for DATA/READ constructs. This BASIC must have been around 1970-1972. Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 06:19:07 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:19:07 -0400 Subject: Need a BASIC expert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is not too hard to imagine a professional programmer who took a copy of Dartmouth BASIC and adapted it for this flavor of BASIC, but I personally dont have any reference docs about it or proof. If there are FORTRAN-esque commands added to the core Dartmouth version I would search for another instance prior to MINICAL where this was done. Back then BASIC flavors and adaptations were becomming common so it may simply be MINICAL BASIC would have been just as easy for a period programmer to whip up from scratch. Bill On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:50 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to find out if the BASIC dialect that was available for the > MINCAL computers (aboutn 1971) was something derived from another "system" > or whether it was an own dialect. > > Some characteristic instructions that I can't find somewhere else are: > - Formatted output with PRINT FOR() > Example: PRINT FOR(F5.0)500.1 > - Computed GOTO with GOTO OF n1,n2,... > Example: GOTO A+B+1 OF 100,20,50 > - Presence of "DEF FN", lack of RESTORE for DATA/READ constructs. > > This BASIC must have been around 1970-1972. > > Christian > From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Apr 21 07:27:12 2021 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:27:12 +0100 Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] Message-ID: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> Hello all again, With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful hardware: - AlphaServer DS15 server - Sun SPARC Enterprise T5140 1U rack server - Sun Blade 10 mini tower - HP Proliant DL380 G7 2U rack server - DEC VT220 with screen, keyboard, and various adapter cables Please note that the Sun T5140 and HP DL380 are deep (700mm for purposes of installation in a rack). I'm starting a new job next week and intend to focus on that and my family. I've stopped working on various projects and I am vacating my studio workshop, so I have a lot of things to give away or sell. The above items are all FREE FOR COLLECTION ONLY (a car will be fine to transport the above items). I am located in London, UK. Post code is N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale) in Haringey, London. Kind regards, Andrew From mazzinia at tin.it Wed Apr 21 07:41:55 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:41:55 +0200 Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] In-Reply-To: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <02d601d736ab$b68c6240$23a526c0$@tin.it> Ach, If only I was in UK ? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 2:27 PM To: The Rescue List ; cctalk at classiccmp.org; tuhs at tuhs.org Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] Hello all again, With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful hardware: - AlphaServer DS15 server - Sun SPARC Enterprise T5140 1U rack server - Sun Blade 10 mini tower - HP Proliant DL380 G7 2U rack server - DEC VT220 with screen, keyboard, and various adapter cables Please note that the Sun T5140 and HP DL380 are deep (700mm for purposes of installation in a rack). I'm starting a new job next week and intend to focus on that and my family. I've stopped working on various projects and I am vacating my studio workshop, so I have a lot of things to give away or sell. The above items are all FREE FOR COLLECTION ONLY (a car will be fine to transport the above items). I am located in London, UK. Post code is N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale) in Haringey, London. Kind regards, Andrew From chris at groessler.org Wed Apr 21 07:43:23 2021 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:43:23 +0200 Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] In-Reply-To: <02d601d736ab$b68c6240$23a526c0$@tin.it> References: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> <02d601d736ab$b68c6240$23a526c0$@tin.it> Message-ID: On 4/21/21 2:41 PM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: > Ach, > > If only I was in UK ? Me too :-( > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 2:27 PM > To: The Rescue List ; cctalk at classiccmp.org; tuhs at tuhs.org > Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] > > Hello all again, > > With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful > hardware: > > - AlphaServer DS15 server > - Sun SPARC Enterprise T5140 1U rack server > - Sun Blade 10 mini tower > - HP Proliant DL380 G7 2U rack server > - DEC VT220 with screen, keyboard, and various adapter cables > > Please note that the Sun T5140 and HP DL380 are deep (700mm for purposes of installation in a rack). > > I'm starting a new job next week and intend to focus on that and my family. I've stopped working on various projects and I am vacating my studio workshop, so I have a lot of things to give away or sell. > > The above items are all FREE FOR COLLECTION ONLY (a car will be fine to transport the above items). > > I am located in London, UK. Post code is N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale) in Haringey, London. > > Kind regards, > > Andrew > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 08:14:21 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:14:21 +0200 Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] In-Reply-To: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 14:27, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > > Hello all again, > > With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful > hardware: > > - AlphaServer DS15 server > - Sun SPARC Enterprise T5140 1U rack server > - Sun Blade 10 mini tower > - HP Proliant DL380 G7 2U rack server > - DEC VT220 with screen, keyboard, and various adapter cables > > Please note that the Sun T5140 and HP DL380 are deep (700mm for purposes > of installation in a rack). > > I'm starting a new job next week and intend to focus on that and my > family. I've stopped working on various projects and I am vacating my > studio workshop, so I have a lot of things to give away or sell. > > The above items are all FREE FOR COLLECTION ONLY (a car will be fine to > transport the above items). > > I am located in London, UK. Post code is N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and > Tottenham Hale) in Haringey, London. Would you like me to cross-post this to some relevant FB groups, such as "Vintage UNIX Machine Enthusiasts (AT&T, SUN, SGI, DEC, HP, NeXT, IBM, Etc.)"...? Anonymised, obviously. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Apr 21 08:31:23 2021 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:31:23 -0500 Subject: Need a BASIC expert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72ECC060-78D4-4CC6-8804-2E5B687CE28D@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Apr 21, 2021, at 6:19 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > It is not too hard to imagine a professional programmer who took a copy of > Dartmouth BASIC and adapted it for this flavor of BASIC, but I personally > dont have any reference docs about it or proof. I?m not sure I would describe it as ?professional? but at one point my employer did pay me to hack up a copy of Bywater BASIC to produce CGI headers rather than its usual banner. This was so we would have .bas files starting with #!/usr/bin/basic that were called as CGI executables. From mark.tapley at swri.org Wed Apr 21 08:35:22 2021 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:35:22 +0000 Subject: Apple 3.5" drive issue In-Reply-To: References: <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047.ref@yahoo.com> <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C0E4E8F-BDF1-4683-943E-264FD105E014@swri.edu> > On Apr 20, 2021, at 5:14 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > If you can hear the eject motor, you may want to inspect the eject gear. I know I?ve had to replace them on both of my //gs drives. They?re 3D printed and I think I found them on eBay or one of the 3D services. I forget. I do remember it was $15 for 2. > > http://cini.classiccmp.org/ > Long Island S100 User?s Group > > Get Outlook for iOS > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of David Williams via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 5:56:13 PM > To: CCTalk > Subject: Apple 3.5" drive issue > > Moved recently and finally have space to set up the collection and play > with it. I've set up my Apple IIgs and a Macintosh Plus and in testing > they are still working but while doing so I've noticed an issue with the > 3.5" drives. I have an Apple Superdrive and 4 Apple 3.5 Drives on the > IIgs and where they all work as far as reading and writing, only the > Superdrive can actually eject the disks. The Mac Plus has the internal > drive and an external Apple 800K drive, both of which work except not > being able to eject disks either. So out of 7 drives, I have one that > doesn't need a paperclip to eject the disk. Haven't opened them up to > look at them yet, wanted to see if this is common and suggestions on > possible causes to check. > > Thanks. > > David Williams > www.trailingedge.com I have forgotten, is this the same drive type where the lubrication eventually turns gummy and needs to be cleaned off and replaced by something with the original, relatively low viscosity? I recall that being an issue with some 3.5? drives. - Mark From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Apr 21 09:43:06 2021 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:43:06 +0100 Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] In-Reply-To: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: On 21/04/2021 13:27, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful > hardware: > -?? Sun Blade 10 mini tower I've just realized this is a typo. It should be: - Sun Ultra 10 mini tower I will write to all who have expressed interest in this particular item. Andrew From technoid6502 at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 10:18:08 2021 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:18:08 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 for sale on Ebay Message-ID: <883bdc45259ce54b18a28ac2d5cbbaea86613463.camel@gmail.com> There's a nice, working PDP 11/23 with 20 meg hdd and 1meg (!!) of ram, with terminal screens indicating full operation. The asking price is $900.00, but I imagine the fellow might negotiate. Shipping is gonna be a fair penny. best, Jeff From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 21 10:29:39 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:29:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Need a BASIC expert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, it was written > If there are FORTRAN-esque commands added to the core Dartmouth version I > would search for another instance prior to MINICAL where this was done. > > Back then BASIC flavors and adaptations were becomming common so it may > simply be MINICAL BASIC would have been just as easy for a period > programmer to whip up from scratch. Minor correction: it's MINCAL (as in Dietz MINCAL), not MINICAL. Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 21 11:43:19 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:43:19 +0100 Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] In-Reply-To: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <030101d736cd$6fb13900$4f13ab00$@ntlworld.com> I would be happy to take the VT220 but I am in Manchester and unlikely to travel to London just for this. I have had one posted successfully before, happy to cover any costs for good packing, postage and for your time. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Andrew Luke > Nesbit via cctalk > Sent: 21 April 2021 13:27 > To: The Rescue List ; cctalk at classiccmp.org; > tuhs at tuhs.org > Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 > G7, VT220 [London, UK] > > Hello all again, > > With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful > hardware: > > - AlphaServer DS15 server > - Sun SPARC Enterprise T5140 1U rack server > - Sun Blade 10 mini tower > - HP Proliant DL380 G7 2U rack server > - DEC VT220 with screen, keyboard, and various adapter cables > > Please note that the Sun T5140 and HP DL380 are deep (700mm for purposes > of installation in a rack). > > I'm starting a new job next week and intend to focus on that and my family. > I've stopped working on various projects and I am vacating my studio > workshop, so I have a lot of things to give away or sell. > > The above items are all FREE FOR COLLECTION ONLY (a car will be fine to > transport the above items). > > I am located in London, UK. Post code is N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and > Tottenham Hale) in Haringey, London. > > Kind regards, > > Andrew From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Apr 21 12:10:22 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:10:22 -0700 Subject: Need a BASIC expert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F45B6E5-6EA4-47DB-8E17-6EF2306FD4F9@shaw.ca> On 2021-Apr-21, at 1:49 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to find out if the BASIC dialect that was available for the MINCAL computers (aboutn 1971) was something derived from another "system" or whether it was an own dialect. > > Some characteristic instructions that I can't find somewhere else are: > - Formatted output with PRINT FOR() > Example: PRINT FOR(F5.0)500.1 > - Computed GOTO with GOTO OF n1,n2,... > Example: GOTO A+B+1 OF 100,20,50 > - Presence of "DEF FN", lack of RESTORE for DATA/READ constructs. > > This BASIC must have been around 1970-1972. It's not clear what you're looking for: 1. A possible predecessor/origin for the source code or design of the MINCAL interpreter, 2. or, earlier BASIC implementations that had the language features you mention. If 2: - HPBASIC for the late-60s HP2100 machines (2115,2115,2114) has DEF FN. (Date of source reference: 4/70). - the HP9830 (released 1972) has both DEF FN and computed goto (as well as computed gosub). - The 9830 has very Fortran-ish WRITE and FORMAT statements. DEF FN was nothing new, it was apparently in the original Dartmouth. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 13:32:51 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:32:51 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23 for sale on Ebay In-Reply-To: <883bdc45259ce54b18a28ac2d5cbbaea86613463.camel@gmail.com> References: <883bdc45259ce54b18a28ac2d5cbbaea86613463.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:18 AM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > There's a nice, working PDP 11/23 with 20 meg hdd and 1meg (!!) of ram, > with terminal screens indicating full operation. The asking price is > $900.00, but I imagine the fellow might negotiate. Shipping is gonna > be a fair penny. > I assume you mean this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154037992233 Item location: Winnetka, California, United States Item description: "This listing is for one DEC PDP 11/23 Computer preloaded with Micro/RSX v3.1 operating system. The unit includes a Seagate ST-225 hard drive, and DEC dual floppy drive model RX50. The CPU is a M8189 KDF11 full size board, and also includes two 512KB full size memory boards model M8067, for a total of 1024KB memory. The unit also has an IEEE GPIB card M7954 and a 4 line ASYNC Mux board with rear panel ports, model M3106. The controller is an RQDX-3 QBUS controller, model M7555. The CRT monitor is not included. The unit is in very nice condition and has been tested and verified to be in perfect working condition and ready for use. This unit is for local pickup only." From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 13:59:12 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:59:12 -0500 Subject: Apple 3.5" drive issue In-Reply-To: <1C0E4E8F-BDF1-4683-943E-264FD105E014@swri.edu> References: <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047.ref@yahoo.com> <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047@yahoo.com> <1C0E4E8F-BDF1-4683-943E-264FD105E014@swri.edu> Message-ID: <5424449a6b41bd71547e9f2ee5f61a77@yahoo.com> On 2021-04-21 08:35, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > > I have forgotten, is this the same drive type where the lubrication > eventually turns gummy and needs to be cleaned off and replaced by > something with the original, relatively low viscosity? I recall that > being an issue with some 3.5? drives. I think so. I found a YouTube video where someone is repairing these drives and they were doing a lot of lubricating. Replacing a gear that broke as well but mostly cleaning and lubricating everything. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Apr 21 14:31:51 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:31:51 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 for sale on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <883bdc45259ce54b18a28ac2d5cbbaea86613463.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, it probably is lighter than the one with 2 RL02's :-) On 4/21/2021 2:32 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:18 AM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk > wrote: >> >> There's a nice, working PDP 11/23 with 20 meg hdd and 1meg (!!) of ram, >> with terminal screens indicating full operation. The asking price is >> $900.00, but I imagine the fellow might negotiate. Shipping is gonna >> be a fair penny. >> > > I assume you mean this one: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/154037992233 > > Item location: Winnetka, California, United States > > Item description: > "This listing is for one DEC PDP 11/23 Computer preloaded with > Micro/RSX v3.1 operating system. The unit includes a Seagate ST-225 > hard drive, and DEC dual floppy drive model RX50. The CPU is a M8189 > KDF11 full size board, and also includes two 512KB full size memory > boards model M8067, for a total of 1024KB memory. The unit also has > an IEEE GPIB card M7954 and a 4 line ASYNC Mux board with rear panel > ports, model M3106. The controller is an RQDX-3 QBUS controller, > model M7555. The CRT monitor is not included. The unit is in very > nice condition and has been tested and verified to be in perfect > working condition and ready for use. This unit is for local pickup > only." > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Apr 21 15:49:16 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:49:16 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23 for sale on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <883bdc45259ce54b18a28ac2d5cbbaea86613463.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <180a1444-93cf-d136-228f-fd5245c5b903@jwsss.com> On 4/21/2021 12:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, it probably is lighter than the one with 2 RL02's :-) > > On 4/21/2021 2:32 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:18 AM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> There's a nice, working PDP 11/23 with 20 meg hdd and 1meg (!!) of ram, >>> with terminal screens indicating full operation.? The asking price is >>> $900.00, but I imagine the fellow might negotiate.? Shipping is gonna >>> be a fair penny. >>> >> >> I assume you mean this one: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154037992233 >> >> Item location: Winnetka, California, United States >> This is about a 90 minute drive for me.? Don't need another one though. guessing 50# shipping though, the seller says no shipping, local pickup only. thanks Jim >> Item description: >> "This listing is for one DEC PDP 11/23 Computer preloaded with >> Micro/RSX v3.1 operating system.? The unit includes a Seagate ST-225 >> hard drive, and DEC dual floppy drive model RX50.? The CPU is a M8189 >> KDF11 full size board, and also includes two 512KB full size memory >> boards model M8067, for a total of 1024KB memory.? The unit also has >> an IEEE GPIB card M7954 and a 4 line ASYNC Mux board with rear panel >> ports, model M3106.? The controller is an RQDX-3 QBUS controller, >> model M7555.? The CRT monitor is not included.? The unit is in very >> nice condition and has been tested and verified to be in perfect >> working condition and ready for use.? This unit is for local pickup >> only." >> > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 21 15:53:26 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:53:26 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3feff376-92a0-7f9d-0985-435ddc7e80bd@ntlworld.com> I've managed to reconstitute my SIMH config and I've checked out a few of the ISO files I managed to generate using ddrescue. The Mar 89 CONOLD and May 89 CONDIST do not even show up as media under Linux. If I get the chance I'll try out the Oxford GAME store polisher for one at least of them. As a backup I'll dig out my 3000 grit sandpaper and try that out. I've only looked at a few CONDIST volumes and none of the corresponding CONOLD volumes. The oldest working one is the 1989 July CONDIST, which read 99.99% with ddrescue. It mounts quite happily and I can see the directory. ANA/DISK complains slightly: [ $ ana/disk dua3: Analyze/Disk_Structure for _VAX072$DUA3: started on 21-APR-2021 21:11:34.25 %ANALDISK-I-SHORTBITMAP, storage bitmap on RVN 1 does not cover the entire device %ANALDISK-I-OPENQUOTA, error opening QUOTA.SYS -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file ] There's never a QUOTA.SYS on a CDROM, so that's probably OK. Not sure about the SHORTBITMAP (it's been a long time since I used VMS as my daily driver and I've not had the chance to try an ISO that was read with no errors, nor a real CDROM in a real CDROM drive on a real VAX). Anyway, it looks like it is all there. However (and there's always a "however") the VAXSET kit that started this all off is VAXSET*080* and not the hoped for *070*. Interestingly the [.LINE] subdirectory does contain some doc files but the [.KIT] directory is empty. I've included the CD_CONTENTS.DAT below. From that you can see: "VAXSET" **** N V8.0 SUB N Y VAXSET080 NO_BINARIES which would suggest that the kit didn't ship although the SPD and so on did. No idea why. Until I saw that I assumed that this was the one set of files to get whacked, but that seems very unlikely. Especially since the 1989 JUL AD CONDIST is the same. I also ran up the MENU.EXE that is included and VAXSET is listed under "New Products" and not "Updated Products". My interpretation would be that it is not on any earlier CONDIST CDROMs. But it would be nice for earlier ones to get flushed out and published! Anyway, over the next few days I'll package up these early CDROMs and put them up on either google drive or dropbox. I'll post a link here and whoever wants them can grab them. If Al wants them for bitsavers that's OK by me. I plan to include the ISO, a README.TXT that explains that these are all incomplete and I'll attach the ddrescue output, a scan of the CD, a SHA256 of the files. I'll tar it up and compress with xz. If anyone would prefer some other format or compression or whatever, I'm open to suggestions. Antonio The list of kits on the 1989-07 CONDIST is: [ $ type cd_contanets???? ents.dat %LABEL CD_BIN_90403 %TYPE CONDIST ! !JULY CONDIST !------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ !PRODUCT NAME UPI INST VERSION KIT CH DIS ROOT SAVESET(S) ! "AAF01/VMS SUBROUTINE LIBRARY" GEFR Y V2.0 SUB1 A Y AAF01020 AAF01020 "ADF01/VMS SUBROUTINE LIBRARY" 375 Y V4.0 SUB1 A Y ADF01040 ADF01040 "DEC GKS FOR VMS" 810A Y V4.0 SUB N Y DECGKS040 DECGKS040,DECGKSRTO040 "DEC GKS-3D FOR VMS" VFXE Y V1.0 SUB1 N Y DECGKS3D010 DECGKS3D010,DECGKS3DRT "DECFORMS" VCH Y V1.0 SUB N Y FORMS010 FORMS010,FORMSTR010 "DECNET-VAX" **** N V5.1 SUB A Y NETVAX051 NO_BINARIES "DECNET/SNA DATA TRANSFER FACILITY" VEBA Y V2.0 SUB1 A Y SNADTF020 SNADTFS020,SNADTFU020 "DECNET/SNA GATEWAY FOR CHANNEL TRANSPORT" VC9 Y V1.0 SUB2 A Y SNACSA010 SNACSA010 "DECNET/SNA GATEWAY FOR SYNCHRONOUS TRANSPORT" S01A Y V1.0 SUB2 A Y SNACST010 SNACST010 "DECNET/SNA VMS 3270 DATA STREAM PROGRAMMING INTERFACE" **** Y V1.4 SUB N Y SNA3270014 SNA3270014 "DECNET/SNA VMS 3270 TERMINAL EMULATOR" 454A Y V1.5 SUB N Y SNATE015 SNATE015 "DECNET/SNA VMS APPC/LU6.2 PROGRAMMING INTERFACE" 022A Y V2.1 SUB A Y SNALU62021 SNALU62021 "DECNET/SNA VMS APPLICATION PROGRAMMING INTERFACE" 455A Y V2.3 SUB N Y SNALU0023 SNALU0023 "DECNET/SNA VMS DISOSS DOCUMENT EXCHANGE FACILITY" 042A Y V1.4 SUB1 A Y SNADDXF014 SNADDXF014 "DECNET/SNA VMS DISTRIBUTED HOST COMMAND FACILITY" 043A Y V1.2 SUB N Y SNADHCF012 SNADHCF012 "DECNET/SNA VMS GATEWAY MANAGEMENT" 452A Y V2.0 SUB2 A Y SNAGM020 SNAGM020 "DECROUTER 2000" S03 Y V1.1 SUB1 A Y ROU011 ROU011 "DECSERVER 200 FOR VAX/VMS AND MICROVMS" Z06A Y V2.0 SUB A Y DS2020 DS2020 "DECSERVER 500/VMS" Z46 Y V1.1 SUB1 A Y DS5011 DS5011 "DECVOICE SOFTWARE" VFU Y V1.0 SUB A Y VOX010 VOX010 "DRX11-C/VMS DRIVER" S36 Y V6.0 SUB1 A Y DRX11C060 DRX11C060 "EXTERNAL DOCUMENT EXCHANGE WITH IBM DISOSS" **** Y V2.1 SUB1 N Y EDEDIS021 EDEDIS021 "IEX-VMS-DRIVER" 519A Y V4.0 SUB1 A Y IEX040 IEX040 "IXV/VAXELN DRIVER" VG3A Y V2.0 SUB A Y IXVELN020 IXVELN020 "IXV11/VMS DRIVER" VHZA Y V2.0 SUB A Y IXV11020 IXV11020 "KMV1A MICROVAX DRIVER AND X.25 LINK LEVEL SOFTWARE" VCQA Y V2.0 SUB A Y UWX25020 UWX25020 "KMV1A MICROVAX DRIVER" VCPA Y V2.0 SUB A Y UWDRV020 UWDRV020 "MICROVAX MIRA SWITCH CONTROL" **** Y V2.1 SUB N Y MRA021 MRA021 "MICROVAX/DRQ3B DEVICE DRIVER" 0APA Y V1.2 SUB A Y HX012 HX012 "MUXSERVER 100 REMOTE TERMINAL SERVER" VE4A Y V2.2 SUB2 A Y MSVAENG022 MSVAENG022 "PBXSERVER" **** Y V2.0 SUB A Y PBXSERVER020 PBXSERVER020 "REMOTE SYSTEM MANAGER SERVER VMS" B13 Y V2.1 SUB A Y RSMSRV021 RSMSRV021 "VAX 2780/3780 PROTOCOL EMULATOR" 111A Y V1.7 SUB A Y BSCPTP017 BSCPTP017 "VAX ACMS" 079A Y V3.0A SUB1 A Y ACMSDEV030 ACMSDEV030,ACMSRTO030,ACMSREM030 "VAX ADA" 056A Y V2.0 SUB N Y ADA020 ADA020,ADAHLP020 "VAX BASIC" 095A Y V3.3 SUB A Y BASIC033 BASIC033 "VAX BLISS-32 IMPLEMENTATION LANGUAGE" 106A Y V4.5 SUB A Y BLS32045 BLS32045 "VAX C" 015A Y V3.0 SUB N Y VAXC030 VAXC030 "VAX CDD/PLUS" 897A Y V4.1 SUB N Y CDD041 CDD041 "VAX COBOL GENERATOR" 365A Y V1.3 SUB A Y GEN013 GEN013 "VAX COBOL" 099A Y V4.2A SUB2 A Y COBOL042 COBOL042 "VAX COBOL/JAPANESE" **** Y V4.2 SUB1 N Y JCOBOL042 JCOBOL042 "VAX COPROCESSOR/RSX" **** Y V1.0 SUB N Y CPRSX010 CPRSX010 "VAX DATATRIEVE" 898A Y V4.2 SUB A Y DTR042 DTR042 "VAX DATATRIEVE/JAPANESE" 898J Y V4.2 SUB A Y JDTR042 JDTR042 "VAX DBMS" 915A Y V4.0 SUB A Y DBMS040 DBMDEV040,DBMRTO040 "VAX DEC/CMS" 007A Y V3.2 SUB N Y CMS032 CMS032 "VAX DEC/MAP" **** Y V2.1 SUB1 A Y MAP021 MAP021 "VAX DEC/MMS" VADA Y V2.5 SUB N Y MMS025 MMS025 "VAX DEC/TEST MANAGER" **** Y V3.0 SUB N Y DTM030 DTM030 "VAX DECISION EXPERT FOR VMS" VI2A Y V1.0 SUB N Y DEEX010 DEEX010 "VAX DECSCAN VMS AND ELN BITBUS DRIVERS" VCJA Y V2.0 SUB2 A Y IBQ020 IBQ020 "VAX DISTRIBUTED FILE SERVICE" VEQ Y V1.1 SUB2 A Y DFS011 DFS011 "VAX DISTRIBUTED NAME SERVICE" VERA Y V1.1A SUB1 A Y DNS011 DNS011 "VAX DISTRIBUTED QUEUING SERVICE" VENA Y V1.1 SUB1 A Y DQS011 DQS011 "VAX DSM" 130A Y V5.1 SUB N Y DSM051 DSM051 "VAX FMS" VD8A Y V2.4 SUB A Y VAXFMS024 VAXFMS024,FMSFDV024 "VAX FORTRAN" **** Y V5.2 SUB U Y FORT052 FORT052 "VAX KCT32" 128A Y V2.0 SUB A Y UK020 UK020 "VAX KMS11-BD/BE HDLC/BSC FRAMING SOFTWARE" 920 Y V2.0 SUB A Y YN020 YN020 "VAX KMS11-BD/BE X.25 LINK LEVEL SOFTWARE" 757A Y V2.0 SUB2 A Y YO020 YO020 "VAX LANGUAGE SENSITIVE EDITOR" 057A Y V2.3 SUB N Y LSE023 LSE023 "VAX NOTES" 960A Y V2.0 SUB U Y NOTES020 NOTES020 "VAX PASCAL" 126A Y V3.9 SUB A Y PASCAL039 PASCAL039 "VAX PERFORMANCE ADVISOR" VE5A Y V2.0 SUB N Y VPA020 VPA020 "VAX PERFORMANCE AND COVERAGE ANALYZER" 119A Y V2.1 SUB N Y PCA021 PCA021 "VAX PL/I" 114A Y V3.3 SUB N Y PLI033 PLI033 "VAX PRINTSERVER CLIENT SOFTWARE" 797 Y V2.1 SUB A Y LPS40C021 LPS40C021 "VAX PRINTSERVER SUPPORTING HOST SOFTWARE" 798 Y V2.1 SUB A Y LPS40S021 LPS40S021 "VAX PRODUCER INTERPRETER" **** Y V1.7 SUB N Y PRDINT017 PRDINT017 "VAX PRODUCER" **** Y V1.7 SUB N Y PRDUCR017 PRDUCR017 "VAX P.S.I. ACCESS" 061A Y V4.2 SUB1 A Y PSI_AC042 PSI_AC042 "VAX P.S.I." 071A Y V4.2 SUB1 A Y PSI042 PSI042 "VAX PUBLIC ACCESS COMMUNICATIONS" **** Y V1.2 SUB N Y VAXPAC012 VAXPAC012 "VAX REAL-TIME ACCELERATOR SOFTWARE" **** Y V2.0 SUB N Y VRTA020 VRTA020 "VAX RMS JOURNALING" **** N V5.1 SUB A Y RMSJNL051 NO_BINARIES "VAX SOFTWARE PROJECT MANAGER" A82A Y V1.2 SUB N Y PM012 PM012 "VAX SOURCE CODE ANALYZER" VC6A Y V1.3 SUB N Y SCA013 SCA013 "VAX SPM" 850A Y V3.2 SUB A Y SPM032 SPM032 "VAX TEAMDATA" 741A Y V1.3 SUB1 A Y TDA013 TDA013 "VAX TEAMDATA/DANSK" **** Y V1.3 SUB A Y TDADANSK013 TDA013 "VAX TEAMDATA/DEUTSCH" ZKJ Y V1.3 SUB A Y TDADEUTSCH013 TDA013 "VAX TEAMDATA/ESPANOL" ZKK Y V1.3 SUB1 A Y TDAESPANOL013 TDA013 "VAX TEAMDATA/FRANCAIS" ZKL Y V1.3 SUB A Y TDAFRANCAIS013 TDA013 "VAX TEAMDATA/NORSK" ZKM Y V1.3 SUB A Y TDANORSK013 TDA013 "VAX TEAMINFO/SVENSKA" **** Y V1.3 SUB1 A Y TDASVENSKA013 TDA013 "VAX VOLUME SHADOWING" **** N V5.1 SUB A Y VMSSHD051 NO_BINARIES "VAX WIDE AREA NETWORK DEVICE DRIVERS" **** Y V1.1 SUB1 U Y SYNC011 SYNC011 "VAX-11 RSX" 382A Y V2.4 SUB A Y RSX024 RSX024 "VAX/EDI (UK)" **** Y V1.0A SUB A Y VAXEDI010 VAXEDI010 "VAX/VMS COMPUTER INTEGRATED TELEPHONY APPLICATIONS INTERFACE" **** Y V1.1 SUB N Y CIT011 CIT011 "VAX/VMS COMPUTER INTEGRATED TELEPHONY PBX SERVER" **** Y V1.1 SUB N Y CITSR011 CITSR011 "VAX/VMS OPERATING SYSTEM" 001 N V5.1-1 SUB U Y VMSU2051 VMSU2051 "VAX/VMS OPERATING SYSTEM" 001 N V5.1-B SUB A Y VMSU1051 VMSU1051,VMSSB_CD051 "VAXCLUSTER CONSOLE SYSTEM" V01 Y V1.2 SUB A Y VCS012 VCS012 "VAXCLUSTER SOFTWARE" **** N V5.1 SUB A Y VAXCLU051 NO_BINARIES "VAXIMAGE APPLICATION SERVICES FOR VMS" 892A Y V1.0 SUB A Y VIS010 VIS010 "VAXIMAGE SCANNING APPLICATION" VPFA Y V1.0 SUB A Y PSCAN010 PSCAN010 "VAXLAB SOFTWARE LIBRARY" **** Y V1.3A SUB A Y VSL013 VSL013 "VAXPC FOR VMS" **** Y V1.0 SUB N Y VAXPC010 VAXPC010 "VAXSET" **** N V8.0 SUB N Y VAXSET080 NO_BINARIES "VMS WORKSTATION SOFTWARE" **** N V4.0 SUB A Y VWS040 VWS040,SIGHT040,VWSDEMO040,HCUIS040 "VMS WORKSTATION SOFTWARE" **** N V4.0A PTC A Y VWS040 VWSA040 "VMS WORKSTATION SOFTWARE/JAPANESE" A96J N V4.0 SUB A Y JVWS040 JVWS040 "VMS WORKSTATION SOFTWARE/JAPANESE" A96J N V4.0A PTC1 U Y JVWS040 JVWSA040 "VMS/JAPANESE" **** N V5.1 SUB1 U Y JVMS051 NO_BINARIES "VMS/SNA" 362 Y V2.0 SUB U Y SNAVMS020 SNAVMS020 "VMS/ULTRIX CONNECTION (TM)" VHR Y V1.0 SUB1 A Y UCX010 UCX010 "X25ROUTER 2000" S02 Y V1.0 SUB2 A Y X25ROU010 X25ROU010 ] -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 21 16:13:21 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 22:13:21 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <3feff376-92a0-7f9d-0985-435ddc7e80bd@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01RY5DIE416Q8X36NW@beyondthepale.ie> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > The oldest working one is the 1989 July CONDIST, which read 99.99% with > ddrescue. It mounts quite happily and I can see the directory. ANA/DISK > complains slightly: > [ > $ ana/disk dua3: > > Analyze/Disk_Structure for _VAX072$DUA3: started on 21-APR-2021 21:11:34.25 > > %ANALDISK-I-SHORTBITMAP, storage bitmap on RVN 1 does not cover the > entire device > %ANALDISK-I-OPENQUOTA, error opening QUOTA.SYS > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file > ] > > There's never a QUOTA.SYS on a CDROM, so that's probably OK. Not sure > about the SHORTBITMAP (it's been a long time since I used VMS as my > daily driver and I've not had the chance to try an ISO that was read > with no errors, nor a real CDROM in a real CDROM drive on a real VAX). > I've just tried ANALYZE/DISK on VAXBINMAY931 which is the oldest I can put a hand on right now and it gives exactly the same output as you got. > > I plan to include the ISO, a README.TXT that explains that these are all > incomplete and I'll attach the ddrescue output, a scan of the CD, a > SHA256 of the files. I'll tar it up and compress with xz. > > If anyone would prefer some other format or compression or whatever, I'm > open to suggestions. > ZIP is probably most commonly used for compressed archives on VMS. The version of ZIP that runs on VMS can save VMS file attributes when told to so that it doesn't lose important attributes for the installation kits like tar would. (I only came across xz anywhere for the first time about a week ago...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 16:35:40 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:35:40 -0500 Subject: Apple 3.5" drive issue In-Reply-To: References: <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047.ref@yahoo.com>, <882f9dad3bfbb1254424a2bd0db58047@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2021-04-20 17:14, Richard Cini wrote: > If you can hear the eject motor, you may want to inspect the eject > gear. I know I?ve had to replace them on both of my //gs drives. > They?re 3D printed and I think I found them on eBay or one of the 3D > services. I forget. I do remember it was $15 for 2. Yes it appears to be the gear. Opened up the drive and the eject mechanism and the one smaller gear is missing some teeth. Found someone posted the stuff you need to 3D print new ones but don't have a 3D printer myself. That person also sells them at 12 for $8 so ordered some and will see how they do when they come in. I suspect all 6 of the bad drives have the same issue. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 21 17:32:00 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:32:00 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <01RY5DIE416Q8X36NW@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <01RY5DIE416Q8X36NW@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <351aa8e4-a13e-365f-b079-1029c7690983@ntlworld.com> On 21/04/2021 22:13, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I've just tried ANALYZE/DISK on VAXBINMAY931 which is the oldest I can > put a hand on right now and it gives exactly the same output as you got. > Thanks ... that's reassuring. Individual savesets can be tested with BACKUP/LIST or (more extensively) by extracting each BACKUP - that would show up any errors. > > ZIP is probably most commonly used for compressed archives on VMS.? The > version of ZIP that runs on VMS can save VMS file attributes when told > to so > that it doesn't lose important attributes for the installation kits > like tar > would. (I only came across xz anywhere for the first time about a week > ago...) It's true that ZIP is probably the most common archiver on VMS (and I'm sure it's on the various OpenVMS FREEWARE disks). That said, I expect that most people making such images available for distribution (e.g. bitsavers) are not running VMS. I'm planning to distribute an ISO plus some extra bits, not the individual backup savesets, so attributes shouldn't be a problem. I'd expect that anyone who wants to use this stuff will run up SIMH and mount an ISO or possibly burn a CD-R and use it that way. I might try zip (under Unix, so gzip) for fun, but I expect that xz will beat it hands down for space. I guess an ISO could also be accessed using LDDRIVER, although my main constraint back in the day was always disk space. I'm not going to try zip on OpenVMS because ... much as I love VMS, SIMH on my laptop just isn't as fast as Linux on a Ryzen! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From mdehling at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 17:50:40 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 00:50:40 +0200 Subject: Looking for VAXSET Software Engineering Tools for VMS 4.x In-Reply-To: <3feff376-92a0-7f9d-0985-435ddc7e80bd@ntlworld.com> References: <20210408121232.s7r4xeq7aaljekgz@x230> <20210416131150.7syhttjnudvavlg2@x230> <20210416183653.r3eqzjonjk62aytn@x230> <3dc6cab6-60ba-2292-f43e-51dd35558123@thereinhardts.org> <70fea4dd-9e8f-e2a4-791d-628ed8a5a612@ntlworld.com> <607B6333.3040508@pico-systems.com> <03bf89d2-18fe-2121-c81e-80e7a73c3938@ntlworld.com> <3feff376-92a0-7f9d-0985-435ddc7e80bd@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20210421224930.tokczbu67bbukegi@x230> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 09:53:26PM +0100, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I've managed to reconstitute my SIMH config and I've checked out a few > of the ISO files I managed to generate using ddrescue. > > The Mar 89 CONOLD and May 89 CONDIST do not even show up as media > under Linux. If I get the chance I'll try out the Oxford GAME store > polisher for one at least of them. As a backup I'll dig out my 3000 > grit sandpaper and try that out. I have to say I'm a little worried about the sandpaper... do you have a spare CD to test the effect on? Another option might be to send the CD to someone who does have a store nearby with a CD polisher. Either way, I guess the first step would be to find out whether the Oxford GAME store has one. Thanks again for your effort! > I've only looked at a few CONDIST volumes and none of the > corresponding CONOLD volumes. > > The oldest working one is the 1989 July CONDIST, which read 99.99% > with ddrescue. It mounts quite happily and I can see the directory. > > [...] > > Anyway, it looks like it is all there. However (and there's always a > "however") the VAXSET kit that started this all off is VAXSET*080* and > not the hoped for *070*. Interestingly the [.LINE] subdirectory does > contain some doc files but the [.KIT] directory is empty. I've > included the CD_CONTENTS.DAT below. From that you can see: > > "VAXSET" **** N V8.0 SUB N Y VAXSET080 NO_BINARIES > > which would suggest that the kit didn't ship although the SPD and so > on did. No idea why. Until I saw that I assumed that this was the one > set of files to get whacked, but that seems very unlikely. Especially > since the 1989 JUL AD CONDIST is the same. VAXSET is just a combined package consisting of CMS, LSE, SCA, MMS, PCA, and DTM. Here's a table of corresponding version numbers I've compiled from various sources (likely not 100% correct): |=== | VAXSET | v5.0 | v6.0 | v7.0 | v8.0 | v9.0 | v10.0 | CMS | v2.3 | v3.0 | v3.1 | v3.2 | v3.3 | v3.4 | LSE | v2.1 | v2.2 | v2.2 | v2.3 | v3.0 | v3.1 | SCA | v1.1 | v1.2 | v1.2 | v1.3 | v2.0 | v3.0 | MMS | v2.2 | v2.3 | v2.4 | v2.5 | v2.5 | v2.6 | PCA |?v1.2 | v2.0 | v2.0 | v2.1 | v2.2 | v3.0 | DTM | v2.2 | v2.3 | v2.3 | v3.0 | v3.1 | v3.2 | Release | 1987 | 1988 | 1988 | 1989 | 1990 | 1990 | Minimal VMS |?v4.4 | v4.6 | v4.6 | v5.1 | v5.3 | v5.3 |=== It looks like the individual components of VAXSET v8.0 are on the 1989-07 CONDIST even if VAXSET is listed as NO_BINARIES. While VAXSET v8.0 requires VMS v5.1, I'm not sure about its components. Some of them may run on (Micro)VMS 4.7. > I also ran up the MENU.EXE that is included and VAXSET is listed under > "New Products" and not "Updated Products". My interpretation would be > that it is not on any earlier CONDIST CDROMs. But it would be nice for > earlier ones to get flushed out and published! That's entirely possible, I have no reason to believe VAXSET was on earlier CONDIST CDs. Either way, I'm very interested in the older CONDISTs, too! This one already contains a few other things I have been looking for for a while. > Anyway, over the next few days I'll package up these early CDROMs and > put them up on either google drive or dropbox. I'll post a link here > and whoever wants them can grab them. If Al wants them for bitsavers > that's OK by me. > > I plan to include the ISO, a README.TXT that explains that these are > all incomplete and I'll attach the ddrescue output, a scan of the CD, > a SHA256 of the files. I'll tar it up and compress with xz. > > If anyone would prefer some other format or compression or whatever, > I'm open to suggestions. Maybe a ZIP file is easier for some people? Otherwise this sounds good! Cheers, Malte -- Malte Dehling From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Apr 22 01:40:46 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 08:40:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Need a BASIC expert In-Reply-To: <1F45B6E5-6EA4-47DB-8E17-6EF2306FD4F9@shaw.ca> References: <1F45B6E5-6EA4-47DB-8E17-6EF2306FD4F9@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021, Brent Hilpert wrote: > It's not clear what you're looking for: > 1. A possible predecessor/origin for the source code or design of the MINCAL interpreter, > 2. or, earlier BASIC implementations that had the language features you mention. Well, both with the focus on 1. I'm trying to find out if there were other earlier implementations of the languages that were available for the MINCAL 500 series. Apparently we have the only existing system, and all software seem to be lost, so I thought I might try to recreate some of it by finding references/sources from other systems. I want to start with the BASIC interpreter. Christian From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 03:08:13 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:08:13 +0100 Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] In-Reply-To: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, My Mrs will batter me, but if nobody steps up for the Alphaserver and VT220 I?m only a couple of hours from you so will gladly give them a new home. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > On 21 Apr 2021, at 13:27, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > > Hello all again, > > With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful hardware: > > - AlphaServer DS15 server > - Sun SPARC Enterprise T5140 1U rack server > - Sun Blade 10 mini tower > - HP Proliant DL380 G7 2U rack server > - DEC VT220 with screen, keyboard, and various adapter cables > > Please note that the Sun T5140 and HP DL380 are deep (700mm for purposes of installation in a rack). > > I'm starting a new job next week and intend to focus on that and my family. I've stopped working on various projects and I am vacating my studio workshop, so I have a lot of things to give away or sell. > > The above items are all FREE FOR COLLECTION ONLY (a car will be fine to transport the above items). > > I am located in London, UK. Post code is N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale) in Haringey, London. > > Kind regards, > > Andrew From rice43 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 22 03:31:18 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:31:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/23 for sale on Ebay In-Reply-To: <883bdc45259ce54b18a28ac2d5cbbaea86613463.camel@gmail.com> References: <883bdc45259ce54b18a28ac2d5cbbaea86613463.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1b4bddd2.24920.178f8b4716f.Webtop.89@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, 21 Apr, 2021 At 16:18 Subject: PDP 11/23 for sale on Ebay There's a nice, working PDP 11/23 with 20 meg hdd and 1meg (!!) of ram, 1MB RAM isn't exactly huge for a MicroPDP-11, though it's quite ample for a KDF11 machine. The most interesting thing about it is that it's 2 512k M8067 boards, which from my experience are rather uncommon, and can fetch a pretty penny, as they're a bit faster than the M7551's. I'm not sure why people are balking at the price though, $900 seems about right for a MicroPDP11, given how versatile and integrated those machines are. It's hard to get much more PDP11 in a smaller form factor, and having drives in the chassis itself really helps keep the space usage down. Much more practical than an 11/03 and pair of RL02's. Looks like a really nice machine, worth picking up for those needing more PDP11's in their life. Cheers, Josh Rice From rice43 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 22 04:44:15 2021 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 10:44:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] In-Reply-To: References: <2b3010dd-4ff0-9e0c-1b5f-675d11889e0e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <2794d22b.24c35.178f8f73bec.Webtop.89@btinternet.com> I'd be more than willing to take the VT220 and bits, but it would be public transport for me, unless you fancy a day trip to the Dorset seaside. I've been looking for one of these reasonably priced for a while to go with my MicroPDP-11's Otherwise i might be able to persuade my other half to let me go on the train next weekend. Looking at it, it doesn't seem too unreasonable, and those VT220's are small enough to get in a travel case. Cheers, Josh Rice ------ Original Message ------ From: "Adrian Graham via cctalk" To: "Andrew Luke Nesbit" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, 22 Apr, 2021 At 09:08 Subject: Re: FTAG: AlphaServer DS15, Sun T5140, Sun Blade 10, HP Proliant DL380 G7, VT220 [London, UK] Hi Andrew, My Mrs will batter me, but if nobody steps up for the Alphaserver and VT220 I?m only a couple of hours from you so will gladly give them a new home. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On 21 Apr 2021, at 13:27, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: Hello all again, With a heavy heart I need to find a new home for the following beautiful hardware: - AlphaServer DS15 server - Sun SPARC Enterprise T5140 1U rack server - Sun Blade 10 mini tower - HP Proliant DL380 G7 2U rack server - DEC VT220 with screen, keyboard, and various adapter cables Please note that the Sun T5140 and HP DL380 are deep (700mm for purposes of installation in a rack). I'm starting a new job next week and intend to focus on that and my family. I've stopped working on various projects and I am vacating my studio workshop, so I have a lot of things to give away or sell. The above items are all FREE FOR COLLECTION ONLY (a car will be fine to transport the above items). I am located in London, UK. Post code is N15 4QL (Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale) in Haringey, London. Kind regards, Andrew From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 18:19:46 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:19:46 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? Message-ID: https://www.ebay.com/itm/164815576309 $9570 for a keyboard. As much as I'd like to find a keyboard for my Lambda's second head, I somehow doubt that's going to happen. And now I think I need to go find a really, really (really) safe place to keep the keyboard I *do* have... - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 22 18:33:01 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:33:01 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0c39c09f-bc5b-0956-487d-867e4841c4eb@shiresoft.com> I have a number of keyboards that folks of this ilk like (several Symbolics keyboards and a number of 3278/9 keyboards). Fortunately, they're all connected to respective machines. I did see that someone (on ebay) had taken an APL 3278 keyboard and converted it to USB!? Grr.? These people make me mad. On 4/22/21 4:19 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/164815576309 > > $9570 for a keyboard. > > As much as I'd like to find a keyboard for my Lambda's second head, I > somehow doubt that's going to happen. And now I think I need to go find a > really, really (really) safe place to keep the keyboard I *do* have... > > - Josh -- TTFN - Guy From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 22 18:36:08 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 2021, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/164815576309 > > $9570 for a keyboard. > > As much as I'd like to find a keyboard for my Lambda's second head, I > somehow doubt that's going to happen. And now I think I need to go find a > really, really (really) safe place to keep the keyboard I *do* have... > I really hope that whomever bought it is going to mate it with an orphaned Lisp Machine. Otherwise they belong in a shallow, unmarked grave. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Apr 22 19:08:05 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:08:05 -0400 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to a food bank of his choice. What is it with keyboards lately? C On 4/22/2021 7:36 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 2021, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164815576309 >> >> $9570 for a keyboard. >> >> As much as I'd like to find a keyboard for my Lambda's second head, I >> somehow doubt that's going to happen.? And now I think I need to go >> find a >> really, really (really) safe place to keep the keyboard I *do* have... >> > > I really hope that whomever bought it is going to mate it with an > orphaned Lisp Machine.? Otherwise they belong in a shallow, unmarked grave. > > g. > From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Apr 22 19:13:00 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 17:13:00 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <9F460E94-0691-4E2A-A0D8-3E6593D40939@avanthar.com> On Apr 22, 2021, at 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to a food bank of his choice. What is it with keyboards lately? That?s a really good question. Are they being used for emulators? If so, I can sort of understand this. The reason I have a DEC VT420 sitting next to my desk is so that I can have the appropriate keyboard, when I need it. It uses LAT to talk to PDP-10, PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha systems (mostly emulated these days). I?ve been seriously considering a Honeywell terminal, for accessing my Multics system (I have used the VT420). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 22 20:31:42 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:31:42 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <9F460E94-0691-4E2A-A0D8-3E6593D40939@avanthar.com> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <9F460E94-0691-4E2A-A0D8-3E6593D40939@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 4/22/21 5:13 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 22, 2021, at 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to a food bank of his choice. What is it with keyboards lately? > > That?s a really good question. Are they being used for emulators? If so, I can sort of understand this. > > The reason I have a DEC VT420 sitting next to my desk is so that I can have the appropriate keyboard, when I need it. It uses LAT to talk to PDP-10, PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha systems (mostly emulated these days). > > I?ve been seriously considering a Honeywell terminal, for accessing my Multics system (I have used the VT420). As far as I can tell, they're being hacked to use as gaming keyboards. At least the IBM beam-spring ones seem to be. Makes little sense to me. --Chuck From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Apr 22 20:36:14 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:36:14 -0500 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <9F460E94-0691-4E2A-A0D8-3E6593D40939@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <6082248E.5030801@charter.net> Chuck and et al, I just showed this to a friend of mine. She sent me a one word reply: 'Stupid'. I have to agree. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 4/22/2021 8:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/22/21 5:13 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to a food bank of his choice. What is it with keyboards lately? >> That?s a really good question. Are they being used for emulators? If so, I can sort of understand this. >> >> The reason I have a DEC VT420 sitting next to my desk is so that I can have the appropriate keyboard, when I need it. It uses LAT to talk to PDP-10, PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha systems (mostly emulated these days). >> >> I?ve been seriously considering a Honeywell terminal, for accessing my Multics system (I have used the VT420). > As far as I can tell, they're being hacked to use as gaming keyboards. > At least the IBM beam-spring ones seem to be. > > Makes little sense to me. > > --Chuck > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 22 21:30:19 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:30:19 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> On 4/22/21 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to a food bank of his choice. josh dersch is looking for a keyboard and a monitor From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Apr 22 21:33:21 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 22:33:21 -0400 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Not anymore. I still need to figure out if/how to get the big monitor out, but the little one is safe, as are two digitizers (one complete), a mouse thing, and a keyboard. And so many floppies. Oi. C On 4/22/2021 10:30 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/22/21 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to >> a food bank of his choice. > > josh dersch is looking for a keyboard and a monitor From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Apr 22 23:22:33 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:22:33 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7543d896-6908-f49e-d591-e62d74d391e4@jwsss.com> On 4/22/2021 7:30 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/22/21 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to >> a food bank of his choice. > > josh dersch is looking for a keyboard and a monitor > He already chimed in.? His search also triggered as soon as it was posted.? Up to 4900 in first hour.? Ridiculous. One has to wonder for these two (another keyboard maybe a month ago) where the machines are these are "liberated" from, or if the actual owners are missing them. thanks Jim From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 00:30:34 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:30:34 +0800 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <7543d896-6908-f49e-d591-e62d74d391e4@jwsss.com> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> <7543d896-6908-f49e-d591-e62d74d391e4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > $9570 for a keyboard. Insanity! Is it gold plated? On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 12:22 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 4/22/2021 7:30 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/22/21 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to > >> a food bank of his choice. > > > > josh dersch is looking for a keyboard and a monitor > > > He already chimed in. His search also triggered as soon as it was > posted. Up to 4900 in first hour. Ridiculous. > > One has to wonder for these two (another keyboard maybe a month ago) > where the machines are these are "liberated" from, or if the actual > owners are missing them. > > thanks > Jim > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 02:48:44 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 00:48:44 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Not anymore. I still need to figure out if/how to get the big monitor > out, but the little one is safe, as are two digitizers (one complete), a > mouse thing, and a keyboard. > I am still on the hunt for a PERQ keyboard and display for a unit I recently acquired, though it's far from urgent. > > And so many floppies. Oi. > If you need help imaging them, I'm happy to share the load. - Josh > > C > > > On 4/22/2021 10:30 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/22/21 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to > >> a food bank of his choice. > > > > josh dersch is looking for a keyboard and a monitor > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 03:11:19 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:11:19 +0100 Subject: ISO intel iPDS-100 w/8085 pod (UK) Message-ID: Hi folks, I just got pipped on an auction for one of these last night, clearly someone needed it more than me and I hope it was for a real usage reason and not just to add to their collection of MDS-related machines. I?ve been looking for an 8085 ICE for ages now to help troubleshoot my STC Executel phone systems so this seemed like an ideal opportunity to get my hands on one but hey, that?s how auctions work. This one also has an external 37 pin floppy interface so I was hoping I could hook up an 8? drive to be able to read the Executel source floppy disks I have. Does anyone have one in the UK they don?t need/taking up too much space etc? This weekend I?ll be investigating getting a Greaseweazle running with an 8? drive now that I have all the components to power my Shugart 860. (I now await comments along the lines of ?what do you need an ICE for when you have a DMM, scope and LA - easy answer: the whole environment was designed on an MDS80 so it would be fun) Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Apr 23 03:46:10 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 01:46:10 -0700 Subject: ISO intel iPDS-100 w/8085 pod (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/2021 1:11 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > 8085 ICE ?scope and LA The latter will only let you trace but have run control to stop or do other actions (dump rom and memory spaces).? Sometimes there are tricks to dump the memory space w/o ICE, but still nice to have an idea what is going on and being able to dump registers, etc. BTW ICE is more useful for development and finding design flaws rather than troubleshooting.? Saying this as an employee of a maker of an ARM, Intel x86 / x64, Itanium and AMD processors. The other ICE I had (may have survived) is two Z8 boxes, and a few of the Intel ICEs for 286 and 386. Having the processor not functional means it isn't likely that the ICE will do anything w/o applying effort to figure why it goes nuts in the first place. If you are after bit rot, however it might be nice to use. I am guessing you put up the same complaint over on Twitter? Do you have any parts of the MDS, or were you looking for the entire rig with the 8085 ICE?? A friend has a ton of parts from a scrapping operation eon ago, could check with him if you have a working MDS to see if he has any complete ICE for that. thanks Jim From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 04:00:40 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:00:40 +0100 Subject: ISO intel iPDS-100 w/8085 pod (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57FCD4D1-C7B1-4017-99E8-FD0E4BDF08D2@gmail.com> Hi Jim, > The latter will only let you trace but have run control to stop or do other actions (dump rom and memory spaces). Sometimes there are tricks to dump the memory space w/o ICE, but still nice to have an idea what is going on and being able to dump registers, etc. This is what I?m after, also being able to walk the RAM space or single step one of my RAM testing ROMs that I?ve put together. I?d love to be able to put together a RAM/ROM style board in the same vein as Dave Curran?s PET RAM/ROM board, still learning the skills required to be able to do that though. > If you are after bit rot, however it might be nice to use. Very much this, but bit rot caused by battery rot. > I am guessing you put up the same complaint over on Twitter? Yup :) > Do you have any parts of the MDS, or were you looking for the entire rig with the 8085 ICE? A friend has a ton of parts from a scrapping operation eon ago, could check with him if you have a working MDS to see if he has any complete ICE for that. Unfortunately not, and given the price that they go for these days I?m very unlikely to get one. I don?t yet have a need to access the full ISIS development suite used to build the Executel software, but being able to read the source code would be very handy in watching the machine working with the LA, I?ve found quite a few faults with them between the analyser and scope. Keir Fraser?s Greaseweazle should be capable of reading 8? floppies and the tools are available to translate the output file into a working disk image I can extract the source files from - the floppies look to have been kept in a reasonable environment and haven?t gone obviously mouldy yet. Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Apr 23 05:37:38 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:37:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ISO intel iPDS-100 w/8085 pod (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Apr 2021, Adrian Graham wrote: > I just got pipped on an auction for one of these last night, clearly > someone needed it more than me and I hope it was for a real usage reason > and not just to add to their collection of MDS-related machines. > > I?ve been looking for an 8085 ICE for ages now to help troubleshoot my > STC Executel phone systems so this seemed like an ideal opportunity to > get my hands on one but hey, that?s how auctions work. This one also has > an external 37 pin floppy interface so I was hoping I could hook up an > 8? drive to be able to read the Executel source floppy disks I have. Reminds me that we got three iPDS-100 several weeks ago. Two have additional bubble memory modules, and there's one extra external floppy drive. And yes, there are some 8085 ICE and EPROM programmes with them ;-) Very nice systems! Christian From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 05:38:55 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:38:55 +0100 Subject: ISO intel iPDS-100 w/8085 pod (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 23 Apr 2021, at 11:37, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Apr 2021, Adrian Graham wrote: >> I just got pipped on an auction for one of these last night, clearly someone needed it more than me and I hope it was for a real usage reason and not just to add to their collection of MDS-related machines. >> >> I?ve been looking for an 8085 ICE for ages now to help troubleshoot my STC Executel phone systems so this seemed like an ideal opportunity to get my hands on one but hey, that?s how auctions work. This one also has an external 37 pin floppy interface so I was hoping I could hook up an 8? drive to be able to read the Executel source floppy disks I have. > > Reminds me that we got three iPDS-100 several weeks ago. Two have additional bubble memory modules, and there's one extra external floppy drive. And yes, there are some 8085 ICE and EPROM programmes with them ;-) > Very nice systems! > > Christian Thanks :P -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Apr 23 08:04:16 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:04:16 -0400 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <7543d896-6908-f49e-d591-e62d74d391e4@jwsss.com> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> <7543d896-6908-f49e-d591-e62d74d391e4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <25aca7a8-1751-8262-4c3f-4cb80b8b171f@alembic.crystel.com> Oh weird. Who did I send that keyboard to then. Oh, Ian. I did send it to him with the request he dump the ROMs and such so other people can build replicas, I'd say reach out to him. Josh: Do you need a Perq1 or Perq2 keyboard. I have a pair of P2 keybards but then again I also have a pair of Perq2's in addition to one Perq1 and a second Perq1 shell with just the disk drive. It's finally (a) warming up and (b) people getting vaccinated so maybe I can get some help this summer removing more of that stuff. The Microvax 3400 is not going to go up the steps easily... C On 4/23/2021 12:22 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/22/2021 7:30 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 4/22/21 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to >>> a food bank of his choice. >> >> josh dersch is looking for a keyboard and a monitor >> > He already chimed in.? His search also triggered as soon as it was > posted.? Up to 4900 in first hour.? Ridiculous. > > One has to wonder for these two (another keyboard maybe a month ago) > where the machines are these are "liberated" from, or if the actual > owners are missing them. > > thanks > Jim From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Fri Apr 23 11:53:36 2021 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 19:53:36 +0300 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement Message-ID: Hello, Did anyone change the hp 9145 streamer capstan ? What parts do you use? Best regards, Plamen From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 23 12:21:36 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:21:36 -0700 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48529d04-4120-43ad-ea03-c9d85269f81d@sydex.com> On 4/23/21 9:53 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > Did anyone change the hp 9145 streamer capstan ? > What parts do you use? > > Best regards, > Plamen Not the 9145 specifically, but I've refurbed a number of QIC drive capstans using silicone vacuum hose, usually the 4mm variety. Search on eBay for "4mm vacuum hose"--there are lots of sellers. The stuff seems to have the right durometer for the job. It's very "stretchy", you can stretch it over the bare metal shaft without losing concetricity. You can use a bit of polyurethane glue if it shows any tendency toward slipping. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 23 13:24:05 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:24:05 -0700 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: <39D4AFC2-8A98-5346-B574-EB4BDEA71AA9@hxcore.ol> References: <48529d04-4120-43ad-ea03-c9d85269f81d@sydex.com> <39D4AFC2-8A98-5346-B574-EB4BDEA71AA9@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <68f7b058-9233-2dd0-4240-94ce4ba97806@sydex.com> On 4/23/21 10:33 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > That would not work the capstans of the 9144/45 have much larger > diameter. Those drives use DC600HC tapes not a QIC tape. How do you figure that? I've got a DC600HC cart here and it's the same dimensions as a standard DC600A cartridge--it is Iotamat preformatted, without the usual optical sense stuff. It was used on a number of QIC (yes, it's quarter-inch) drives, such as the Kennedy 9455 and the ADIC 32-track drives. As far as the capstan being too large, I suspect you may underestimate the "stretchiness" of silicone hose. Somewhere, I posted a photo if an Archive 2060S drive with a red hose replacement capstan. The hose comes in larger sizes, regardless. I still need to refurb the capstan on my 3M DCD-01 drive, but it's been too long since I've run into any 2-track DC300 tapes, so it's not a priority. In any case, the suggestion is offered for whatever value one can gain from it. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 13:38:25 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:38:25 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 4:20 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/164815576309 > > $9570 for a keyboard. There were several retracted bids around $5,500, $9,000, and $10,000 which were retracted immediately after they were placed. I wonder if that was bidders placing high bids just to probe what the current high bidder upper limit was before retracting their probe bid. That's one of the reasons why it isn't the best idea to place your true high bid early, and instead wait until the very end. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 23 13:45:13 2021 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (hp-fix at xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 20:45:13 +0200 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: <68f7b058-9233-2dd0-4240-94ce4ba97806@sydex.com> References: <48529d04-4120-43ad-ea03-c9d85269f81d@sydex.com> <39D4AFC2-8A98-5346-B574-EB4BDEA71AA9@hxcore.ol> <68f7b058-9233-2dd0-4240-94ce4ba97806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <001801d73870$cc69d720$653d8560$@xs4all.nl> I think I misread you answer, 4mm tube for me is 4mm inside diameter, I suppose you mean 4mm wall thickness. And the inside diameter of the 9144/45 is 12mm (~.5") the outside is about 18mm (~.7") (~3mm wall thickness). I use polyurethane to make the new capstans, turn them on the lathe. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk Namens Chuck Guzis via cctalk Verzonden: vrijdag 23 april 2021 20:24 Aan: CCtalk Onderwerp: Re: hp 9145 capstan replacement On 4/23/21 10:33 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > That would not work the capstans of the 9144/45 have much larger > diameter. Those drives use DC600HC tapes not a QIC tape. How do you figure that? I've got a DC600HC cart here and it's the same dimensions as a standard DC600A cartridge--it is Iotamat preformatted, without the usual optical sense stuff. It was used on a number of QIC (yes, it's quarter-inch) drives, such as the Kennedy 9455 and the ADIC 32-track drives. As far as the capstan being too large, I suspect you may underestimate the "stretchiness" of silicone hose. Somewhere, I posted a photo if an Archive 2060S drive with a red hose replacement capstan. The hose comes in larger sizes, regardless. I still need to refurb the capstan on my 3M DCD-01 drive, but it's been too long since I've run into any 2-track DC300 tapes, so it's not a priority. In any case, the suggestion is offered for whatever value one can gain from it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 23 14:02:40 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:02:40 -0700 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: <001801d73870$cc69d720$653d8560$@xs4all.nl> References: <48529d04-4120-43ad-ea03-c9d85269f81d@sydex.com> <39D4AFC2-8A98-5346-B574-EB4BDEA71AA9@hxcore.ol> <68f7b058-9233-2dd0-4240-94ce4ba97806@sydex.com> <001801d73870$cc69d720$653d8560$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 4/23/21 11:45 AM, hp-fix at xs4all.nl wrote: > I think I misread you answer, 4mm tube for me is 4mm inside diameter, I suppose you mean 4mm wall thickness. > And the inside diameter of the 9144/45 is 12mm (~.5") the outside is about 18mm (~.7") (~3mm wall thickness). > I use polyurethane to make the new capstans, turn them on the lathe. The inside diameter of the silicone vacuum tubing is 4mm. Grabbing my calipers, the outside diameter is about 9.5 mm, so the wall is quite thick. It takes a bit of strength to get it stretched over the metal body of the rollers--some silicone spray lubricant helps. Once there, it's not going anywhere. Since it's extruded tube, it's perfectly concentric. I stumbled on it after ordering a quantity to replace the PVC vacuum hose in my truck. After 25 years, it had turned brittle and was cracking. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 23 14:57:02 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:57:02 -0700 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: <48529d04-4120-43ad-ea03-c9d85269f81d@sydex.com> References: <48529d04-4120-43ad-ea03-c9d85269f81d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1d7587e4-0324-f924-42ee-3a05700a219d@bitsavers.org> On 4/23/21 10:21 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/23/21 9:53 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Did anyone change the hp 9145 streamer capstan ? >> What parts do you use? black norprene tubing, cut with a razor blade with the tubing over a wooden dowel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 22:11:59 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 20:11:59 -0700 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: <1d7587e4-0324-f924-42ee-3a05700a219d@bitsavers.org> References: <1d7587e4-0324-f924-42ee-3a05700a219d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I tired several methods which worked to some extent (afore mentioned silicone tubes, shrink wrap, eBay bought molded rubber overwraps, machined grooves and add O-rings), but now I just strip my capstans clean and coat them with plasti-dip. Methods in shown my various videos (like here https://youtu.be/cTZCD4OXETk ). Only plastidip and o-rings have been durable enough in the long run, and plasti-dip is easier. I have not done a capstan this large though. There are also some folks out there that will also commercially recoat a capstan with correctly molded and vulcanized rubber. Marc > On Apr 23, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 4/23/21 10:21 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 4/23/21 9:53 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Did anyone change the hp 9145 streamer capstan ? >>> What parts do you use? > > black norprene tubing, cut with a razor blade with the > tubing over a wooden dowel > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 23 22:31:59 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 20:31:59 -0700 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: References: <1d7587e4-0324-f924-42ee-3a05700a219d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1a5fad13-01c5-b359-860c-defdcee82e0c@sydex.com> On 4/23/21 8:11 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > I tired several methods which worked to some extent (afore mentioned silicone tubes, shrink wrap, eBay bought molded rubber overwraps, machined grooves and add O-rings), but now I just strip my capstans clean and coat them with plasti-dip. Methods in shown my various videos (like here https://youtu.be/cTZCD4OXETk ). Only plastidip and o-rings have been durable enough in the long run, and plasti-dip is easier. I have not done a capstan this large though. There are also some folks out there that will also commercially recoat a capstan with correctly molded and vulcanized rubber. > Marc In the past, I've used this guy: http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ Top-notch work. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 13:50:42 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 11:50:42 -0700 Subject: DEC H742a Power Supplies, for Parts (Seattle) Message-ID: Hey all -- I've started stripping down the "fire-sale" PDP-11/45 I picked up in November, in preparation for sanding and repainting the rack and processor chassis. There were two H742a supplies in the rack that I believe are too far gone to be reasonably restored (in particular the heat definitely did a number on at least one of the transformers) and I have a pair of H7420a's ready to take their place. I hate to see things go to waste, though, and even though it's probably pointless -- before I send these off to the scrapyard, I wanted to check to see if anyone here needed any parts. Shipping the whole unit(s) would be pretty expensive, local pickup is an option if you want the whole thing(s). The transformers are a bit toasty but the power supply boards look like they might be usable after a good cleaning and testing. Fans are dead (either melted away entirely or rusted out). I suppose there's not really much else that'd be useful to anyone but I have a compulsion to make sure... Here's a couple of pictures: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMpL89R2GtJFrrRqZ1vQ?e=Re3KZr And for fun, here's a bunch of pictures of the unit just prior to the teardown: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMpL8-mTCp-NndzDTpbw?e=8aWCl4 (I do think there's a good chance this will run again, the major casualties were the front panel, power supplies, and wiring harness. I have replacements for the first two, and the third is just a matter of taking the time to build a new one. The boards cleaned up nicely and there's no real damage to the processor backplane, amazingly.) - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 14:36:51 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 15:36:51 -0400 Subject: DEC H742a Power Supplies, for Parts (Seattle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 2:51 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Fans are dead (either melted away entirely or rusted > out). Are any of those melty fans Boxers? I'm still looking for a circlip to put a Boxer back together for an Omnibus box (for those that haven't heard the story, I was cleaning and lubing a fan and the clip leaped to freedom, never to be found). I sent a picture before of the fan type and of the circlip. I can resend if needed. I don't need the entire fan, just that one tiny metal part. -ethan From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 14:43:02 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 14:43:02 -0500 Subject: Exidy S-100 Expansion cards questions References: <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff@yahoo.com> Moving forward on setting up my collection and I was taking a look at an Exidy Sorcerer S-100 Expansion box I had received long ago. I wondered if anyone could help with info on the cards I found inside. The first is clearly a memory card but not familiar with the company. The second is a disk controller and the third is a parallel/rs232 interface. I haven't found any doc on any of them yet. If you have doc or info on the cards or anything else about the expansion box please let me know. Haven't tested or done any more with it yet other than open it up and look around inside. Had this for ages but only now had room to take it out of the box. 1) 64K Static Memory card copyright 1981 Memory Merchant 2) Double Disk controller by Jade Computer (Doesn't seem to match the image on the doc I found on Bitsavers for their Double D controller but suspect it is one) 3) Interfacer II Triple Parallel / RS232 Serial I/O from CompuPro - Godbout Links to pics below. http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-1.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-2.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-3.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-4.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-5.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-6.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-7.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-8.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-9.jpg Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Apr 24 15:01:48 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:01:48 -0700 Subject: Exidy S-100 Expansion cards questions In-Reply-To: <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff@yahoo.com> References: <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff.ref@yahoo.com> <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2021-Apr-24, at 12:43 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: > Moving forward on setting up my collection and I was taking a look at an Exidy Sorcerer S-100 Expansion box I had received long ago. I wondered if anyone could help with info on the cards I found inside. The first is clearly a memory card but not familiar with the company. The second is a disk controller and the third is a parallel/rs232 interface. I haven't found any doc on any of them yet. If you have doc or info on the cards or anything else about the expansion box please let me know. Haven't tested or done any more with it yet other than open it up and look around inside. Had this for ages but only now had room to take it out of the box. > > 1) 64K Static Memory card copyright 1981 Memory Merchant > 2) Double Disk controller by Jade Computer (Doesn't seem to match the image on the doc I found on Bitsavers for their Double D controller but suspect it is one) > 3) Interfacer II Triple Parallel / RS232 Serial I/O from CompuPro - Godbout I take it you haven't found s100computers.com. Info for the Compupro Interfaceer II is readily available there, with scan of original manual with schematic. http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/CompuPro/Interfacer%20II/Interfacer%20II.htm Mem Merch 64K and Jade FDC are listed there as well, I haven't looked below the link level for them though. There used to be another S100 site under maben-something but it seems to have vanished. It was a lot of duplicate with S100computers but had some additional stuff. > Links to pics below. > > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-1.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-2.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-3.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-4.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-5.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-6.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-7.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-8.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/images/ExidyS100-9.jpg From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Apr 24 15:10:55 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:10:55 -0700 Subject: DEC H742a Power Supplies, for Parts (Seattle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2AA98173-2DBB-4845-8041-7FA76886CA6E@fritzm.org> > On Apr 24, 2021, at 11:50 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > There were two H742a supplies in the rack... I hate to see things go to waste... > ...the power supply boards look like they might be usable after a good > cleaning and testing. Hi Josh, I have H742a's running in my '11/45, so I'd be happy to give the controller boards a good home in my spares cache if nobody else speaks up with a more immediate need for them. cheers, --FritzM. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 15:23:45 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 15:23:45 -0500 Subject: Exidy S-100 Expansion cards questions In-Reply-To: References: <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff.ref@yahoo.com> <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7844401263bb5a4d00c02aeb55cdfdd3@yahoo.com> On 2021-04-24 15:01, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I take it you haven't found s100computers.com. > > Info for the Compupro Interfaceer II is readily available there, with > scan of original manual with schematic. > http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/CompuPro/Interfacer%20II/Interfacer%20II.htm > > Mem Merch 64K and Jade FDC are listed there as well, I haven't looked > below the link level for them though. > > There used to be another S100 site under maben-something but it seems > to have vanished. > It was a lot of duplicate with S100computers but had some additional > stuff. No I hadn't found that site yet, thanks! I knew of the maben site but haven't been able to access it for some time so figured it was gone now. Anyway, thanks for the pointer. That takes care of the cards, now just need to find info on the expansion box itself. This was a pretty complete Exidy setup it would appear. Came with the Sorcerer, the expansion box, monitor, some drives. Bunch of cassette tapes and what appears to be a speaker box of some sort with what I assume to be a volume control on the side with an possible headphone jack and a ribbon cable with a DB-25 coming out of it. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Apr 24 15:36:34 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:36:34 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO Message-ID: <645E6E0C-0735-4212-AB5E-FAC23960F727@fritzm.org> Hi Josh, Among the pictures linked from your message about the H742a parts, there is one picture of you backplane. I have been looking for some time for information about the following 11/45 ECO: > KB11-00001 CODE: D May-72 [ECO] > > Problem: Etch carrying +5V current from Mate-n-Lock pins to backpanel pins is not heavy enough to carry required current. Correction: Run 24AWG wire in parallel with etch on panels which already have Mat-n-Lock assembly installed. Increase thickness of conductor with solder bead if Mate-n-Lock assembly not installed. PDP-11/45 system serial number 101 and later. The wiring arrangements at the top of your backplane look to be a bit different from mine, and I believe you may have this ECO implemented. While you have your backplane out, could I ask that you take some closeups around the Mate-n-Locks along the top? I'd be very interested to see the board traces and the details of the red bus wiring there. Pictures of the toasted 11/45 suggest that the original machine had the older power wiring scheme (distribution panel mounted vertically on back of cabinet instead of horizontally at top of cabinet, etc.) although your KB11A serial number badge is >2000, which is curious... From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 17:25:17 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:25:17 -0600 Subject: Need a BASIC expert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 5:19 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > It is not too hard to imagine a professional programmer who took a copy of > Dartmouth BASIC and adapted it for this flavor of BASIC, but I personally > dont have any reference docs about it or proof. > [...] > so it may > simply be MINICAL BASIC would have been just as easy for a period > programmer to whip up from scratch. > The latter seems far more likely. From what little is known about it, the MINCAL architecture is apparently very dissimilar to the GE-225/235/265 or GE-635, e.g. the MINCAL being a BCD machine, so I'd expect it would have been much easier to write a new BASIC interpreter for the MINCAL from scratch than to adapt it from actual Dartmouth BASIC. Are there any known actual "ports" of Dartmouth BASIC to non-GE/Honeywell machines, as opposed to scratch reimplementations? From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 18:01:41 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:01:41 -0500 Subject: Interesting Exidy peripheral References: <9eb415d0da3a93528efed67de35a8da8.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9eb415d0da3a93528efed67de35a8da8@yahoo.com> Earlier I'd found a box with a speaker, what looked like a volume control and maybe a headphone jack with a ribbon cable going to a DB-25 connector. Thought it might be for playing sounds from the system. Appears to be partly right. While digging through various Exidy doc on Bitsavers I came across a manual for a Cognivox Speech Recongnition and Voice Response Peripheral by a company called Voicetek. The images in the manual match the box itself. What I thought was a headphone jack is for a mic and it appears to plug into the parallel port in the expansion unit. I haven't found any of the software that the manual says ships with it though I'm still finding parts of this system packed away in various boxes so might find it yet. I know it is probably a huge long shot but if anyone else has software or anything else about this peripheral, please drop me a line. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From web at loomcom.com Sat Apr 24 19:39:05 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 17:39:05 -0700 Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? In-Reply-To: <1f99b55f-16ed-6cd8-b4d7-d77b20880b88@rickmurphy.net> References: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> <877dkyjg3q.fsf@loomcom.com> <1f99b55f-16ed-6cd8-b4d7-d77b20880b88@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <59271795-4dcd-4ee2-aaec-abb9c37fbae2@www.fastmail.com> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021, at 6:19 PM, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > Height 27.38 mm (1.07 in) > Diameter 13.36 mm at the base (closed end), 13mm at the open end (hard > to measure as it's easily deformed). > Ear slots 5.5 mm wide > Ears 2.17 mm wide, 11.3 high (the tooth-shaped part only). > ??? -Rick Thanks so much, Rick, I greatly appreciate it! I'm going to try building one in OpenSCAD and printing them out. I'll let the list know how it goes. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 21:02:42 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:02:42 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <645E6E0C-0735-4212-AB5E-FAC23960F727@fritzm.org> References: <645E6E0C-0735-4212-AB5E-FAC23960F727@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 1:36 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Josh, > > Among the pictures linked from your message about the H742a parts, there > is one picture of you backplane. I have been looking for some time for > information about the following 11/45 ECO: > > > KB11-00001 CODE: D May-72 [ECO] > > > > Problem: Etch carrying +5V current from Mate-n-Lock pins to backpanel > pins is not heavy enough to carry required current. Correction: Run 24AWG > wire in parallel with etch on panels which already have Mat-n-Lock assembly > installed. Increase thickness of conductor with solder bead if Mate-n-Lock > assembly not installed. PDP-11/45 system serial number 101 and later. > > The wiring arrangements at the top of your backplane look to be a bit > different from mine, and I believe you may have this ECO implemented. > While you have your backplane out, could I ask that you take some closeups > around the Mate-n-Locks along the top? I'd be very interested to see the > board traces and the details of the red bus wiring there. > For sure. I have it on a shelf in the garage to keep it relatively safe while it's out of the chassis, next time I'm out there I'll take some pictures. > > Pictures of the toasted 11/45 suggest that the original machine had the > older power wiring scheme (distribution panel mounted vertically on back of > cabinet instead of horizontally at top of cabinet, etc.) although your > KB11A serial number badge is >2000, which is curious... Yes, I was looking at the service docs and it does seem to match the earlier wiring scheme. If you have notes on re-creating the harness, let me know. The molex shells actually survived the heat (with a couple of exceptions) so I should be able to reuse them. Looks like I'll just need to order up a ton of wire and pins (and a crimper, probably). I'll get the 15V boards out of the H742's this week. - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 21:40:17 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:40:17 -0700 Subject: DEC H742a Power Supplies, for Parts (Seattle) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 12:37 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 2:51 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > Fans are dead (either melted away entirely or rusted > > out). > > Are any of those melty fans Boxers? I'm still looking for a circlip > to put a Boxer back together for an Omnibus box (for those that > haven't heard the story, I was cleaning and lubing a fan and the clip > leaped to freedom, never to be found). > Thanks for reminding me, I'll take a look. There look to be three Boxers in the upper supply (which didn't melt but are very rusty). If they match what you need, I'll see if I can liberate some circlips from them. I'll also pull off the mounting bracket for the front panel for you. I think it may be the only salvageable part from it (unless anyone needs an aluminum light mask from an 11/45 front panel). - Josh > I sent a picture before of the fan type and of the circlip. I can > resend if needed. I don't need the entire fan, just that one tiny > metal part. > > -ethan > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 24 22:28:20 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO Message-ID: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > could I ask that you take some closeups around the Mate-n-Locks along > the top? I'd be very interested to see the board traces and the details > of the red bus wiring there. I had a look at my /45 (a later KB11-D - although I think the backplanes for the -A and -D are identical), and it seems to have heavy red wires attached to the upper row of Mate-n-Lok's that look just like those on Josh's. I'd really want to take pictures of mine (I don't want to take the backplane out - too much work - but I can get decent images with it in, I think) so I can compare them directly, though, not depend on visual memory. Noel PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but they aren't common. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 22:55:32 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:55:32 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but they aren't > common. I do. -tony From knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu Sat Apr 24 02:40:11 2021 From: knowak at alumni.calpoly.edu (Kurt Nowak) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 00:40:11 -0700 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: <1a5fad13-01c5-b359-860c-defdcee82e0c@sydex.com> References: <1d7587e4-0324-f924-42ee-3a05700a219d@bitsavers.org> <1a5fad13-01c5-b359-860c-defdcee82e0c@sydex.com> Message-ID: I was going to mention him too but you beat me to it. He does really great nice work. I've had a few QIC drive rollers replaced through him. http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ -Kurt On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 20:32 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/23/21 8:11 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > I tired several methods which worked to some extent (afore mentioned > silicone tubes, shrink wrap, eBay bought molded rubber overwraps, machined > grooves and add O-rings), but now I just strip my capstans clean and coat > them with plasti-dip. Methods in shown my various videos (like here > https://youtu.be/cTZCD4OXETk ). Only plastidip and o-rings have been > durable enough in the long run, and plasti-dip is easier. I have not done a > capstan this large though. There are also some folks out there that will > also commercially recoat a capstan with correctly molded and vulcanized > rubber. > > Marc > > In the past, I've used this guy: > > http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ > > Top-notch work. > > --Chuck > > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 01:12:23 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 02:12:23 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <10b901d73999$f5450640$dfcf12c0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2021 11:56 PM > To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO > > > PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but they aren't > > common. > > I do. > > -tony Do #2; not yet fully restored. Soon(ish) ... Has five red bodge wires that appear to be the same as on Josh's photo. https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AJkwqfjZ3cw06W8&cid=CC8708A7CAEAF7A6&id=CC8708A7CAEAF7A6%21597691&parId=CC8708A7CAEAF7A6%21597950&o=OneUp paul From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sun Apr 25 04:09:31 2021 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 10:09:31 +0100 Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? In-Reply-To: <59271795-4dcd-4ee2-aaec-abb9c37fbae2@www.fastmail.com> References: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> <877dkyjg3q.fsf@loomcom.com> <1f99b55f-16ed-6cd8-b4d7-d77b20880b88@rickmurphy.net> <59271795-4dcd-4ee2-aaec-abb9c37fbae2@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <997B5524-BB67-40FC-AE8C-26E6443E471A@btinternet.com> If it?s of any assistance, i have one too. I see you have measurements, but here?s some photo?s which may also help https://imgur.com/gallery/jWIR3F2 Cheers, Josh Rice > On Apr 25, 2021, at 1:39 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2021, at 6:19 PM, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: >> Height 27.38 mm (1.07 in) >> Diameter 13.36 mm at the base (closed end), 13mm at the open end (hard >> to measure as it's easily deformed). >> Ear slots 5.5 mm wide >> Ears 2.17 mm wide, 11.3 high (the tooth-shaped part only). >> -Rick > > Thanks so much, Rick, I greatly appreciate it! I'm going to try building one in OpenSCAD and printing them out. I'll let the list know how it goes. > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > Poulsbo, WA > web at loomcom.com From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sun Apr 25 06:18:36 2021 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:18:36 +0300 Subject: hp 9145 capstan replacement In-Reply-To: References: <1d7587e4-0324-f924-42ee-3a05700a219d@bitsavers.org> <1a5fad13-01c5-b359-860c-defdcee82e0c@sydex.com> Message-ID: I have it fixed with this tube: https://www.aquatuning.no/vannkjoeling/slanger/tubes/2265/masterkleer-tubing-pvc-17-4/13mm-1/2-id-clear Best regards, Plamen On Saturday, April 24, 2021, Kurt Nowak via cctalk wrote: > I was going to mention him too but you beat me to it. He does really great > nice work. I've had a few QIC drive rollers replaced through him. > > http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ > > -Kurt > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 20:32 Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 4/23/21 8:11 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > > I tired several methods which worked to some extent (afore mentioned > > silicone tubes, shrink wrap, eBay bought molded rubber overwraps, > machined > > grooves and add O-rings), but now I just strip my capstans clean and coat > > them with plasti-dip. Methods in shown my various videos (like here > > https://youtu.be/cTZCD4OXETk ). Only plastidip and o-rings have been > > durable enough in the long run, and plasti-dip is easier. I have not > done a > > capstan this large though. There are also some folks out there that will > > also commercially recoat a capstan with correctly molded and vulcanized > > rubber. > > > Marc > > > > In the past, I've used this guy: > > > > http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ > > > > Top-notch work. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 25 08:36:37 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:36:37 +0000 Subject: Exidy S-100 Expansion cards questions In-Reply-To: <7844401263bb5a4d00c02aeb55cdfdd3@yahoo.com> References: <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff.ref@yahoo.com> <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff@yahoo.com> , <7844401263bb5a4d00c02aeb55cdfdd3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Be careful with the cassette tapes. Many of the pressure pads have gone bad. Playing them can cause the tapes to get folds that will make the tape data difficult to extract. Most tapes can be opened up and the pressure pads repaired. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of David Williams via cctalk Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2021 1:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Exidy S-100 Expansion cards questions On 2021-04-24 15:01, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I take it you haven't found s100computers.com. > > Info for the Compupro Interfaceer II is readily available there, with > scan of original manual with schematic. > http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/CompuPro/Interfacer%20II/Interfacer%20II.htm > > Mem Merch 64K and Jade FDC are listed there as well, I haven't looked > below the link level for them though. > > There used to be another S100 site under maben-something but it seems > to have vanished. > It was a lot of duplicate with S100computers but had some additional > stuff. No I hadn't found that site yet, thanks! I knew of the maben site but haven't been able to access it for some time so figured it was gone now. Anyway, thanks for the pointer. That takes care of the cards, now just need to find info on the expansion box itself. This was a pretty complete Exidy setup it would appear. Came with the Sorcerer, the expansion box, monitor, some drives. Bunch of cassette tapes and what appears to be a speaker box of some sort with what I assume to be a volume control on the side with an possible headphone jack and a ribbon cable with a DB-25 coming out of it. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 25 10:09:38 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 10:09:38 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000001d739e5$030d5b60$09281220$@classiccmp.org> Noel wrote... > PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but > they aren't common. Tony replied... I do. -------------- I have a dual bay 11/45 with RL02, RX02, BA11 expansion, and an early 3rd party (CSI?) linktape. All restored, tested, and working with spares and docs. In retirement I'm focusing on my 21MX systems, but I will keep one or two pdp-11's. The 11/45 will not be one I keep, it's up for sale and may end up on ebay. Other than the 11/45, most of my non-HP stuff will be given or traded away. J From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Apr 25 11:08:44 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:08:44 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <37a8d84e-a9eb-3f88-2851-734136f6a96a@figureeightbrewing.com> On 4/24/21 10:28 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > could I ask that you take some closeups around the Mate-n-Locks along > > the top? I'd be very interested to see the board traces and the details > > of the red bus wiring there. > > I had a look at my /45 (a later KB11-D - although I think the backplanes for > the -A and -D are identical), and it seems to have heavy red wires attached > to the upper row of Mate-n-Lok's that look just like those on Josh's. I'd > really want to take pictures of mine (I don't want to take the backplane out > - too much work - but I can get decent images with it in, I think) so I > can compare them directly, though, not depend on visual memory. > > Noel > > PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but they aren't > common. I have an 11/45. I can also take pics if it would help. --tom From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sun Apr 25 11:51:41 2021 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:51:41 -0500 Subject: Exidy S-100 Expansion cards questions In-Reply-To: References: <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff.ref@yahoo.com> <76b4befc9e593b437a4bed61117697ff@yahoo.com> , <7844401263bb5a4d00c02aeb55cdfdd3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3bcc535183e13f667af08790263efbf9@yahoo.com> On 2021-04-25 08:36, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Be careful with the cassette tapes. Many of the pressure pads have > gone bad Playing them can cause the tapes to get folds that will make > the tape data difficult to extract. Most tapes can be opened up and > the pressure pads repaired. > Dwight Be a while before I can get to the cassettes or the disks that came with this but I'll watch for that. Thanks for the heads up, wouldn't have thought to check them. Seems like so many parts can break down when you get old. :) David Williams www.trailingedge.com From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Apr 25 15:27:31 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:27:31 +0000 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: zondag 25 april 2021 05:28 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Re: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but they aren't common. I have one 11/45, and one 11/55. Most of the CPU boards in the 11/55 are the same as the ones in the 11/45, but I have the M8120 and 4 M8121 boards (32kW bipolar RAM). It is a bit weird, but in the 11/55 are also two G114 boards (4kW MOS RAM), IIRC. Both will need a thorough inspection before powering up! Henk, PA8PDP From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 15:42:34 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:42:34 -0700 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info Message-ID: Hi all -- In addition to the 11/45 project I'm also working on restoring an RF08/RS08 fixed head disk/controller (in the vain hopes of one day running TSS/8 on my PDP-8/I). I have the power supply repaired and running and I'm getting ready to power the logic up (the disc itself will be a project all its own, once it arrives). I'd like to double-check that all the flip chips are in their right places; I have no cause to think they've been shuffled around but I want to be sure. The engineering docs have detailed schematics but no placement chart for the modules themselves. Given enough time with the schematics I could derive this chart but I'm saving that as a last resort. So, two possibilities here: 1) Does anyone know of a document I've overlooked that includes module placement? 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of the logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my possession, so are not useful in this regard!) Thanks! - Josh From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 15:55:25 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 22:55:25 +0200 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Den s?n 25 apr. 2021 kl 22:43 skrev Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Hi all -- > > In addition to the 11/45 project I'm also working on restoring an RF08/RS08 > fixed head disk/controller (in the vain hopes of one day running TSS/8 on > my PDP-8/I). I have the power supply repaired and running and I'm getting > ready to power the logic up (the disc itself will be a project all its own, > once it arrives). > > I'd like to double-check that all the flip chips are in their right places; > I have no cause to think they've been shuffled around but I want to be > sure. The engineering docs have detailed schematics but no placement chart > for the modules themselves. Given enough time with the schematics I could > derive this chart but I'm saving that as a last resort. So, two > possibilities here: > > 1) Does anyone know of a document I've overlooked that includes module > placement? > 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of the > logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the > available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my > possession, so are not useful in this regard!) > > I have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It was connected to a PDP-8/L, but the cabinet with the DW08 was missing. I can take a bunch of pictures next weekend. I have a vague idea that I have a bunch of docs with the unit. Double ledger size or around A2. I will have a look. Would be very interesting to read your story when repairing it! /Mattis > Thanks! > - Josh > From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 15:56:14 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:56:14 -0700 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/25/2021 1:42 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of the > logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the > available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my > possession, so are not useful in this regard!) This one might be useful for comparison: https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/disk-drives/ https://www.computercollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/IMG_2241.jpg It's a little out of focus toward the bottom. https://www.computercollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/IMG_2243.jpg Only one side of the drive electronics appears to be visible. Vince From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 16:06:26 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:06:26 -0700 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 1:56 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 4/25/2021 1:42 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of > the > > logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the > > available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my > > possession, so are not useful in this regard!) > > This one might be useful for comparison: > https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/disk-drives/ > https://www.computercollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/IMG_2241.jpg > It's a little out of focus toward the bottom. > > https://www.computercollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/IMG_2243.jpg > Only one side of the drive electronics appears to be visible. > Yeah -- this is a picture of the exact unit currently in my possession. So it matches 100% but tells me nothing useful ;). - Josh > > Vince > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 16:40:39 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:40:39 -0700 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 1:55 PM Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Den s?n 25 apr. 2021 kl 22:43 skrev Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > >> Hi all -- >> >> In addition to the 11/45 project I'm also working on restoring an >> RF08/RS08 >> fixed head disk/controller (in the vain hopes of one day running TSS/8 on >> my PDP-8/I). I have the power supply repaired and running and I'm getting >> ready to power the logic up (the disc itself will be a project all its >> own, >> once it arrives). >> >> I'd like to double-check that all the flip chips are in their right >> places; >> I have no cause to think they've been shuffled around but I want to be >> sure. The engineering docs have detailed schematics but no placement >> chart >> for the modules themselves. Given enough time with the schematics I could >> derive this chart but I'm saving that as a last resort. So, two >> possibilities here: >> >> 1) Does anyone know of a document I've overlooked that includes module >> placement? >> 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of >> the >> logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the >> available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my >> possession, so are not useful in this regard!) >> >> > I have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It was connected to a PDP-8/L, but the cabinet > with the DW08 was missing. > I can take a bunch of pictures next weekend. > > I have a vague idea that I have a bunch of docs with the unit. Double > ledger size or around A2. I will have a look. > Thanks! That will be very helpful! > Would be very interesting to read your story when repairing it! > I'm going to try to write about it, we'll see how good I am about keeping up. Still slowly writing things up about the 11/70 from earlier this year and I'm behind on just about everything. I imagine getting an actual physical disk working is going to be an unlikely prospect, my plan is to develop some hardware to emulate one or more RS08 drives, eventually. But I want to try the real thing first :). - Josh > > /Mattis > > > >> Thanks! >> - Josh >> > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 20:03:06 2021 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:03:06 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3C5CCB8F-3D48-4306-82F6-2CC7DADFFAFF@gmail.com> I do. An early one from Stanford. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 24, 2021, at 11:28 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> >> From: Fritz Mueller > >> could I ask that you take some closeups around the Mate-n-Locks along >> the top? I'd be very interested to see the board traces and the details >> of the red bus wiring there. > > I had a look at my /45 (a later KB11-D - although I think the backplanes for > the -A and -D are identical), and it seems to have heavy red wires attached > to the upper row of Mate-n-Lok's that look just like those on Josh's. I'd > really want to take pictures of mine (I don't want to take the backplane out > - too much work - but I can get decent images with it in, I think) so I > can compare them directly, though, not depend on visual memory. > > Noel > > PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but they aren't > common. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 25 22:49:54 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 23:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO Message-ID: <20210426034954.D0AFD18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I had a look at my /45 ... and it seems to ... look just like those on > Josh's. I'd really want to take pictures of mine .. so I can compare > them directly, though, not depend on visual memory. Yeah, mine (a late /55, actually) has the _exact_ same wires at Josh's. So that's probably the final ECO level. Image here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/1145CPUBackPlane.jpg if you're interested. (Not a great image, but OK; I can try for a better one if there's a need.) > From: Henk Gooijen > Most of the CPU boards in the 11/55 are the same as the ones in the > 11/45 The -11/45, /50 and /55 are all the same CPU (KB11-A or -D), so the same backplane/everything, but differ only if they were sold pre-configured with the MS11 Fastbus memory. And of course some /45's (especially those sold before the introduction of the /50 and /55 as sales options - I have a /45 price list from Sep, 1972 which lists the /45 and /50 but not the /55; and one from Jan, '73 which only lists the /45 :-) were upgraded (possibly after sale, after the /50 and /55 appeared) with MS11 - or possibly some /50's and /55's had the MS11 removed at some point. So the number doesn't mean anything; one has to look at the boards. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Apr 26 00:06:27 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 22:06:27 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210426034954.D0AFD18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210426034954.D0AFD18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Very interesting -- thanks for the info, folks! My backplane has none of this wiring. I'd really like to see if the traces also look the same, too, though there is no real rush. Hopefully it will be more convenient for Josh to get some straight-on pictures, since his backplane is already pulled. There is also this ECO: > KB11A-B0008 CODE: DF DD: E WL: E SEP-72 [FCO] > > Problem: Small peripheral controller slots in KB11-A panel, slots 26 thru 28, are not wired to accept some quad module controllers: NPG, PA, PB, LTC, ACLO, DCLO and +15V are missing. Correction: Revise wiring to include signals listed above. ...which I have previously verified is *not* implemented on my backplane. I first noticed this because a DL11 in slots SPC slots 26-28 malfunctioned with incorrect signaling levels (because no +15V), but worked just fine if moved over to a backplane expansion. The fact that my backplane is not wired to support trap to 114 on parity err (machine halts instead) has been previously discussed here. Serial number 152 on this one -- seems an early bird indeed. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Apr 25 15:13:33 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:13:33 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <37a8d84e-a9eb-3f88-2851-734136f6a96a@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <37a8d84e-a9eb-3f88-2851-734136f6a96a@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On 4/25/21 12:08 PM, Tom Uban via cctech wrote: > On 4/24/21 10:28 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Fritz Mueller >> >> > could I ask that you take some closeups around the Mate-n-Locks along >> > the top? I'd be very interested to see the board traces and the details >> > of the red bus wiring there. >> >> I had a look at my /45 (a later KB11-D - although I think the backplanes for >> the -A and -D are identical), and it seems to have heavy red wires attached >> to the upper row of Mate-n-Lok's that look just like those on Josh's. I'd >> really want to take pictures of mine (I don't want to take the backplane out >> - too much work - but I can get decent images with it in, I think) so I >> can compare them directly, though, not depend on visual memory. >> >> Noel >> >> PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but they aren't >> common. > I have an 11/45. I can also take pics if it would help. > > --tom > I used to have 4 of them. Gave them to people who were trying to set up museums. Never heard how that went. Miss them as much as I miss my 11/24. I have no UNIBUS PDP's anymore. bill From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Apr 26 01:26:40 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 23:26:40 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: References: <645E6E0C-0735-4212-AB5E-FAC23960F727@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <12FC0704-E60C-41BE-B694-D5E6E264A971@fritzm.org> > On Apr 24, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > If you have notes on re-creating the harness, let me know. Hi Josh, A few pointers -- I think I left some of these in a comment on one of your fb posts, but will repeat here in case others may find it useful: * The wire list in the commonly available Jun74 11/45 engineering drawing set is actually for the power harness, and not for the backplane. It includes wire run lengths in inches, which is quite handy. I believe it is for the newer harness, but there is much overlap. * The old and new harnesses are also schematically illustrated on four pages of the drawing set marked "power systems configuration". These drawings are complete and quite good. * Drawings for the power distribution board for the older wiring style (vertical at the back of the cabinet) are hidden in the Jun74 11/*40* engineering drawings (upper right of sheet BA11-F0). * What I did was use the wire list lengths as a guide, cutting each run to length plus a little extra. I then started with the H742s on the bench, at the regulator and power monitor mate-n-loks. Then put the H742s in the rack with the CPU cabinet, and worked my up and over the and then down along the along the backplane toward the console, bundling and trimming to length as I went. * A good ratchet lock crimp tool makes a big difference here. You want one with a die that can handle 14 AWG, and on which will crimp both the electrical and strain-relief parts of the pins in one go. * Sticking with the original wire color code also makes it a lot easier not to get lost and later to double check and troubleshoot your work. I used MTW ("Machine Tool Wire"), which is available from wirebarn.com at 14 and 18 AWG in most of the necessary colors and in 25 and 100 foot lengths (I think the 18 AWG purple I had to find separately on eBay, but I have lots of leftover of that and will gladly send you some.) * I skipped wiring for most of the regulators in the bottom H742 (I have regulator F there, but none of H, J, K, or L are populated) because I don't have any core or fastbus memory in my system. I figure I can add this later if I ever do find myself with either of these. Good luck! --FritzM. From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 02:03:14 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 03:03:14 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <12FC0704-E60C-41BE-B694-D5E6E264A971@fritzm.org> References: <645E6E0C-0735-4212-AB5E-FAC23960F727@fritzm.org> <12FC0704-E60C-41BE-B694-D5E6E264A971@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <12c501d73a6a$3a841cc0$af8c5640$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fritz Mueller via cctalk > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 2:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO > > > > On Apr 24, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > If you have notes on re-creating the harness, let me know. > > Hi Josh, > > A few pointers -- I think I left some of these in a comment on one of your fb posts, > but will repeat here in case others may find it useful: Thank you for not hiding your experience on Facebook! > * Sticking with the original wire color code also makes it a lot easier not to get lost > and later to double check and troubleshoot your work. I used MTW ("Machine Tool Wire"), > which is available from wirebarn.com at 14 and 18 AWG in most of the necessary colors > and in 25 and 100 foot lengths (I think the 18 AWG purple I had to find separately on eBay, > but I have lots of leftover of that and will gladly send you some.) > > --FritzM. And thank you for the pointer to Wirebarn. Much better stock than at Home Depot :->. https://www.wirebarn.com/14-AWG-MTW-MACHINE-TOOL-HOOKUP-WIRE_c_23.html https://www.wirebarn.com/18-AWG-MTW-MACHINE-TOOL-HOOKUP-WIRE_c_25.html Those assortments are great. Also the single color in various lengths: https://www.wirebarn.com/14-Gage-Machine-Tool-Wire-MTW_c_111.html https://www.wirebarn.com/18-Gage-Machine-Tool-Wire-MTW_c_84.html ----- paul From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 02:11:00 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 01:11:00 -0600 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210425032820.47C6B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 9:28 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I had a look at my /45 (a later KB11-D - although I think the backplanes > for > the -A and -D are identical), > I did not think they used the same backplane, but 11/45 maintenance manual (EK-11045-MM-007) confirms that they are. Tables 1-2 for the KB11-A and table 1-3 for the KB11-D confirm that the backplane for both is the 70-08871. It's possible that the KB11-D requires a higher rev of the backplane than the minimum for a KB11-A. That's the case for the 11/70. The KB11-B (original 11/70) and KB11-C (later 11/70) have essentially the same changes as from the KB11-A to KB11-D, and the 11/70 maintenance manual (EK-11070-MM says that both use the 70-11051 backplane, but that for a KB11-C, the backplane must be revision D or later. It sure would be nice to get backplane wirelists for all four (KB11-A, -B, -C, and -D). Also, I'm looking for a Field Maintenance Print Set for the RH70. From haydenkilloh at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 02:23:38 2021 From: haydenkilloh at gmail.com (Hayden) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 08:23:38 +0100 Subject: Looking for IBM 3278 Operator Console Message-ID: I'm trying to track down a keyboard to complete a system which is proving quite difficult! Here is the specific unit: https://i.imgur.com/FsG24G3.jpg if anyone happened to have one of these spare or know someone who does please let me know! From andrew at carrierdetect.com Mon Apr 26 03:59:17 2021 From: andrew at carrierdetect.com (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 08:59:17 +0000 Subject: Looking for IBM 3278 Operator Console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8eafe641-897b-b5e5-aab8-47cba7a90353@carrierdetect.com> On 26/04/2021 08:23, Hayden via cctech wrote: > > I'm trying to track down a keyboard to complete a system which is proving > quite difficult! > > Here is the specific unit: https://i.imgur.com/FsG24G3.jpg > > if anyone happened to have one of these spare or know someone who does > please let me know! You just missed one on eBay. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IBM-3278-3279-beamspring-keyboard-1742720-FullyTested-clicky-Beam-Spring-AOK-/333955798938 I'm afraid you'll be competing with keyboard fetishists and so now a keyboard seems to fetch multiple times that of the terminal unit itself. Andrew From cube1 at charter.net Mon Apr 26 08:27:49 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 08:27:49 -0500 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21d47e9d-719f-2541-873d-4554180eb07c@charter.net> On 4/25/2021 3:55 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Den s?n 25 apr. 2021 kl 22:43 skrev Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > >> Hi all -- >> >> In addition to the 11/45 project I'm also working on restoring an RF08/RS08 >> fixed head disk/controller (in the vain hopes of one day running TSS/8 on >> my PDP-8/I). I have the power supply repaired and running and I'm getting >> ready to power the logic up (the disc itself will be a project all its own, >> once it arrives). >> Fantastic. This thread sent me checking to see if I might have a DW08. Doesn't seem that I do. My notes indicate that somewhere I do have a DW8-E stashed somewhere - at least the backplane - in offsite storage. I had forgotten about it. If someone could use it, we could talk. [I suspect it was used to connect a PDP-12 to an RK8E to run RK05's, but I have neither of those, as far as I know.] I also have another level shifter that I don't have documented (near as I can tell). It is 11.5" high with M735 open collector modules, among others, on it, but the label that I can see has faded to illegibility. And as a result of investigating this in my PDP-12 notes, I found that the power supply that Josh received from me had become a "donor" of a rectifier bridge to my PDP-12 back in 1990. I suppose those wires were just dangling on the unit when you received it. >> I'd like to double-check that all the flip chips are in their right places; >> I have no cause to think they've been shuffled around but I want to be >> sure. The engineering docs have detailed schematics but no placement chart >> for the modules themselves. Given enough time with the schematics I could >> derive this chart but I'm saving that as a last resort. So, two >> possibilities here: >> Wise man. >> 1) Does anyone know of a document I've overlooked that includes module >> placement? >> 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of the >> logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the >> available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my >> possession, so are not useful in this regard!) >> >> > I have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It was connected to a PDP-8/L, but the cabinet > with the DW08 was missing. > I can take a bunch of pictures next weekend. > > I have a vague idea that I have a bunch of docs with the unit. Double > ledger size or around A2. I will have a look. > > Would be very interesting to read your story when repairing it! > > /Mattis > > > >> Thanks! >> - Josh >> From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Apr 26 08:14:23 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 06:14:23 -0700 Subject: Looking for IBM 3278 Operator Console In-Reply-To: <8eafe641-897b-b5e5-aab8-47cba7a90353@carrierdetect.com> References: <8eafe641-897b-b5e5-aab8-47cba7a90353@carrierdetect.com> Message-ID: <01589EAA-D655-4523-A94C-036B5B269E86@avanthar.com> > I'm afraid you'll be competing with keyboard fetishists and so now a > keyboard seems to fetch multiple times that of the terminal unit itself. > > Andrew Which might in part explain why so many terminals on eBay are missing the keyboard. Zane From rob.laz at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 26 13:09:36 2021 From: rob.laz at ntlworld.com (Rob Laz) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:09:36 +0100 Subject: Digital DEC 3000 Message-ID: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> Digital DEC 3000 I have an old DEC 3000 unit that I no longer have time or space for, and was wondering what to do with it. The rear plate shows PE42A-B9, CPU KN17, DEC 3000 600S and the ROM has a sticker showing Dec 1989. I have a video cable but not a suitable monitor so can't fully test it but I think it is booting up OK as the diagnostic LED's on the rear show 11011101 or DD in hex which I think means it has booted OK to console. It has been running in the past and my last efforts were probably 10+ years ago when I installed VMS version 7 with a guest licence. I also have a few peripherals including a SZ12 disk unit, LK201 keyboard, circular mouse and various SCSI and video cables. It has been stored in my garage which is not totally sealed so it has suffered a little corrosion to the rear connectors but it looks recoverable. All thoughts and opinions welcome. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 26 13:35:04 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:35:04 +0100 Subject: Digital DEC 3000 In-Reply-To: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> References: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <058901d73aca$e02ba340$a082e9c0$@ntlworld.com> I am sure there would be plenty of people who would be willing to take it off your hands. You don't say where in the world it is located though, but guessing from your email address it might be somewhere in the UK, so I might be interested. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Laz via cctalk > Sent: 26 April 2021 19:10 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digital DEC 3000 > > > Digital DEC 3000 > > I have an old DEC 3000 unit that I no longer have time or space for, and was > wondering what to do with it. > > The rear plate shows PE42A-B9, CPU KN17, DEC 3000 600S and the ROM has a > sticker showing Dec 1989. > > I have a video cable but not a suitable monitor so can't fully test it but I think > it is booting up OK as the diagnostic LED's on the rear show > 11011101 or DD in hex which I think means it has booted OK to console. > > It has been running in the past and my last efforts were probably 10+ years > ago when I installed VMS version 7 with a guest licence. > > I also have a few peripherals including a SZ12 disk unit, LK201 keyboard, > circular mouse and various SCSI and video cables. > > It has been stored in my garage which is not totally sealed so it has suffered a > little corrosion to the rear connectors but it looks recoverable. > > All thoughts and opinions welcome. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Apr 26 13:29:00 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:29:00 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Digital DEC 3000 In-Reply-To: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01RYC73RLRGE8X36NW@beyondthepale.ie> > > Digital DEC 3000 > > I have an old DEC 3000 unit that I no longer have time or space for, and > was wondering what to do with it. > > The rear plate shows PE42A-B9, CPU KN17, DEC 3000 600S and the ROM has a > sticker showing Dec 1989. > > I have a video cable but not a suitable monitor so can't fully test it > but I think it is booting up OK as the diagnostic LED's on the rear show > 11011101 or DD in hex which I think means it has booted OK to console. > > It has been running in the past and my last efforts were probably 10+ > years ago when I installed VMS version 7 with a guest licence. > > I also have a few peripherals including a SZ12 disk unit, LK201 > keyboard, circular mouse and various SCSI and video cables. > > It has been stored in my garage which is not totally sealed so it has > suffered a little corrosion to the rear connectors but it looks recoverable. > > All thoughts and opinions welcome. > > Hi Rob, I have three DEC 3000 600 machines which don't work with various issues including multiple cache failures, shorted decoupling capacitors and power supply issues. They seem to accumulate more issues each time I get around to looking at them again :-( If you are willing to part out, I would be interested in your system board and I/O board to help me get some of my machines sorted out. I guess you also have a graphics card? I would be interested in that too. You don't say where you are. I am located in Ireland. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 14:12:10 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:12:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Digital DEC 3000 In-Reply-To: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> References: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1979835849.1351393.1619464330517@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Rob, If you end up parting this out to others who have dying motherboards or PSUs: How much RAM does it have? I bought a 3000/700 last week on eBay, it's supposed to arrive this week. For what it's worth: I have about a dozen Turbochannel machines that I'm slowly reviving, to work on NetBSD drivers for FDDI and graphics/console support. I've got one of every TC framebuffer (excluding the Kubota/Denali, and the framebuffer with a port to drive an early-90s flat panel). That's partly why there are so few left on eBay at reasonable prices. It anyone has a PMTCE extender box that they're wiling to part with, I'd pay the price resellers list. (They're all long sold). The PMTCE only supports a single TC device, but it ets you install a single 3-slot board, but only consumes one slot on the host. I have two or three of the adapter boards. Rob Jarrett wants to keep his, after the labour of love to restore it. On Monday, April 26, 2021, 11:12:18 AM PDT, Rob Laz via cctech wrote: ? Digital DEC 3000 I have an old DEC 3000 unit that I no longer have time or space for, and was wondering what to do with it. The rear plate shows PE42A-B9, CPU KN17, DEC 3000 600S and the ROM has a sticker showing Dec 1989. I have a video cable but not a suitable monitor so can't fully test it but I think it is booting up OK as the diagnostic LED's on the rear show 11011101 or DD in hex which I think means it has booted OK to console. It has been running in the past and my last efforts were probably 10+ years ago when I installed VMS version 7 with a guest licence. I also have a few peripherals including a SZ12 disk unit, LK201 keyboard, circular mouse and various SCSI and video cables. It has been stored in my garage which is not totally sealed so it has suffered a little corrosion to the rear connectors but it looks recoverable. All thoughts and opinions welcome. From kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 14:12:10 2021 From: kiwi_jonathan at yahoo.com (Jonathan Stone) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:12:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Digital DEC 3000 In-Reply-To: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> References: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1979835849.1351393.1619464330517@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Rob, If you end up parting this out to others who have dying motherboards or PSUs: How much RAM does it have? I bought a 3000/700 last week on eBay, it's supposed to arrive this week. For what it's worth: I have about a dozen Turbochannel machines that I'm slowly reviving, to work on NetBSD drivers for FDDI and graphics/console support. I've got one of every TC framebuffer (excluding the Kubota/Denali, and the framebuffer with a port to drive an early-90s flat panel). That's partly why there are so few left on eBay at reasonable prices. It anyone has a PMTCE extender box that they're wiling to part with, I'd pay the price resellers list. (They're all long sold). The PMTCE only supports a single TC device, but it ets you install a single 3-slot board, but only consumes one slot on the host. I have two or three of the adapter boards. Rob Jarrett wants to keep his, after the labour of love to restore it. On Monday, April 26, 2021, 11:12:18 AM PDT, Rob Laz via cctech wrote: ? Digital DEC 3000 I have an old DEC 3000 unit that I no longer have time or space for, and was wondering what to do with it. The rear plate shows PE42A-B9, CPU KN17, DEC 3000 600S and the ROM has a sticker showing Dec 1989. I have a video cable but not a suitable monitor so can't fully test it but I think it is booting up OK as the diagnostic LED's on the rear show 11011101 or DD in hex which I think means it has booted OK to console. It has been running in the past and my last efforts were probably 10+ years ago when I installed VMS version 7 with a guest licence. I also have a few peripherals including a SZ12 disk unit, LK201 keyboard, circular mouse and various SCSI and video cables. It has been stored in my garage which is not totally sealed so it has suffered a little corrosion to the rear connectors but it looks recoverable. All thoughts and opinions welcome. From rob.laz at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 27 01:36:47 2021 From: rob.laz at ntlworld.com (Robin Lasbury) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:36:47 +0100 Subject: Digital DEC 3000 Message-ID: <3a9f3125-7c1b-1566-7051-1ddd79f7ccf7@ntlworld.com> I am new to the list so please excuse me for leaving out a few essential elements of my message. ----------------- I am in Cardiff in the UK and would prefer collection of the Digital DEC 3000 unit as it is large and heavy and would not be easy to arrange postage. I am happy to wait for a few weeks/months until covid restrictions are fully lifted and would really like the item to go to someone who appreciates its heritage. ----------------- I have an old DEC 3000 unit that I no longer have time or space for, and was wondering what to do with it. The rear plate shows PE42A-B9, CPU KN17, DEC 3000 600S and the ROM has a sticker showing Dec 1989. I have a video cable but not a suitable monitor so can't fully test it but I think it is booting up OK as the diagnostic LED's on the rear show 11011101 or DD in hex which I think means it has booted OK to console. It has been running in the past and my last efforts were probably 10+ years ago when I installed VMS version 7 with a guest licence. I also have a few peripherals including a SZ12 disk unit, LK201 keyboard, circular mouse and various SCSI and video cables. It has been stored in my garage which is not totally sealed so it has suffered a little corrosion to the rear connectors but it looks recoverable. All thoughts and opinions welcome. From rob.laz at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 27 05:45:02 2021 From: rob.laz at ntlworld.com (Rob Laz) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:45:02 +0100 Subject: Digital DEC 3000 In-Reply-To: <9BEA631F-A6A6-4A57-954E-C63F66400441@comcast.net> References: <85e2f902-bb9b-bdf5-9636-6d2659e7062c@ntlworld.com> <1409D267-AF88-4945-B1D4-53AFAD12B46B@comcast.net> <709cb568-bc78-2dc3-86eb-a035d746cb1b@ntlworld.com> <9BEA631F-A6A6-4A57-954E-C63F66400441@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5806c34d-3919-6705-ce34-61793591e01b@ntlworld.com> >//>/Digital DEC 3000 />//>/I have an old DEC 3000 unit that I no longer have time or space for, and />/was wondering what to do with it. />//>/The rear plate shows PE42A-B9, CPU KN17, DEC 3000 600S and the ROM has a />/sticker showing Dec 1989. />//>/I have a video cable but not a suitable monitor so can't fully test it />/but I think it is booting up OK as the diagnostic LED's on the rear show />/11011101 or DD in hex which I think means it has booted OK to console. />//>/It has been running in the past and my last efforts were probably 10+ />/years ago when I installed VMS version 7 with a guest licence. />//>/I also have a few peripherals including a SZ12 disk unit, LK201 />/keyboard, circular mouse and various SCSI and video cables. />//>/It has been stored in my garage which is not totally sealed so it has />/suffered a little corrosion to the rear connectors but it looks recoverable. />//>/All thoughts and opinions welcome. />//>// Hi Rob, I have three DEC 3000 600 machines which don't work with various issues including multiple cache failures, shorted decoupling capacitors and power supply issues. They seem to accumulate more issues each time I get around to looking at them again :-( If you are willing to part out, I would be interested in your system board and I/O board to help me get some of my machines sorted out. I guess you also have a graphics card? I would be interested in that too. You don't say where you are. I am located in Ireland. Regards, Peter Coghlan. I hadn't considered splitting the components but I can see that would be an option and a lot more manageable boxing up smaller parts for the post office. I would really prefer to see the unit go in one piece but will keep it in mind as an option. I am in Cardiff. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 11:36:45 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:36:45 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > On 4/24/21 10:28 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Noel > > > > PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but > they aren't > > common. The Rhode Island Computer Museum has two. The pair were the interface between fire pull boxes and the 911 dispatch system in Brooklyn, NY. Both have DV11 & DH11 serial controllers. These are capable of the very low baud rates needed to talk to the fire pull boxes. https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-11-45 -- Michael Thompson From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 13:33:53 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:33:53 +0100 Subject: 3B2 in Brazil on Facebook Message-ID: <7dfc01d73b93$e03526d0$a09f7470$@gmail.com> Some one appears to have three AT&T 3B2/300 manuals, cables diskettes, sadly in Brazil and has posted some pictures in a Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/permalink/3954289997 980016/ You can open the link in an incognito, sandboxed, VPNd session and still see the post.. Dave G4UGM From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Apr 27 13:50:55 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:50:55 -0700 Subject: 3B2 in Brazil on Facebook In-Reply-To: <7dfc01d73b93$e03526d0$a09f7470$@gmail.com> References: <7dfc01d73b93$e03526d0$a09f7470$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/27/2021 11:33 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Some one appears to have three AT&T 3B2/300 manuals, cables diskettes, sadly > in Brazil and has posted some pictures in a Facebook group > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/permalink/3954289997 > 980016/ > > > > You can open the link in an incognito, sandboxed, VPNd session and still see > the post.. > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > Argentina.? A bit aways.? There's a list member I'm in contact with in Sao Paulo Brazil, but that's not Argentina. I've seen this posted, didn't realize it was there. thanks Jim From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 13:55:28 2021 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:55:28 -0700 Subject: Is this a new record? In-Reply-To: <25aca7a8-1751-8262-4c3f-4cb80b8b171f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3fd88854-bcc8-9209-4934-e09c35d7470a@alembic.crystel.com> <2a65754e-f8ec-9a01-7e97-1a946f3ce72f@bitsavers.org> <7543d896-6908-f49e-d591-e62d74d391e4@jwsss.com> <25aca7a8-1751-8262-4c3f-4cb80b8b171f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Hi, I'm the guy who got the PERQ 1 keyboard from Chris for a $100 donation. Since I got @'ed here, I felt the need to state: 1) The PERQ 1 KB is foam and foil, and isn't a space cadet full of wild keys, so I don't think the keyboard collectors are after them for BIG MONEY. (Which is great, I wish they all were undesirable.) It's rather nasty vacuum form and I'd be surprised to find out the keyboarders want 'em. 2) I've re-foiled it 3) To defend my honor I feel the need to clarify that I've attached it to a *REAL PERQ 1* which is otherwise complete. No USB, raspberry PIs, etc. 4) I can provide any reference info on it to folks who need. Thx, ~ I On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 6:04 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Oh weird. Who did I send that keyboard to then. Oh, Ian. I did send it > to him with the request he dump the ROMs and such so other people can > build replicas, I'd say reach out to him. > > Josh: Do you need a Perq1 or Perq2 keyboard. I have a pair of P2 > keybards but then again I also have a pair of Perq2's in addition to one > Perq1 and a second Perq1 shell with just the disk drive. > > It's finally (a) warming up and (b) people getting vaccinated so maybe I > can get some help this summer removing more of that stuff. The Microvax > 3400 is not going to go up the steps easily... > > C > > On 4/23/2021 12:22 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 4/22/2021 7:30 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> On 4/22/21 5:08 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >>> Jesus, I just traded a Perq1 keyboard to a guy for a $100 donation to > >>> a food bank of his choice. > >> > >> josh dersch is looking for a keyboard and a monitor > >> > > He already chimed in. His search also triggered as soon as it was > > posted. Up to 4900 in first hour. Ridiculous. > > > > One has to wonder for these two (another keyboard maybe a month ago) > > where the machines are these are "liberated" from, or if the actual > > owners are missing them. > > > > thanks > > Jim > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 14:36:31 2021 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 16:36:31 -0300 Subject: 3B2 in Brazil on Facebook In-Reply-To: <7dfc01d73b93$e03526d0$a09f7470$@gmail.com> References: <7dfc01d73b93$e03526d0$a09f7470$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Burnos aires is in Argentina, not in Brazil :/ Anyway Argentina is near and I have proffessional A3 scanning capabilities. If you want to save on freight I can receive the manuals and scan them. Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em ter, 27 de abr de 2021 15:34, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > Some one appears to have three AT&T 3B2/300 manuals, cables diskettes, > sadly > in Brazil and has posted some pictures in a Facebook group > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagecomputerswapmeet/permalink/3954289997 > 980016/ > > > > > You can open the link in an incognito, sandboxed, VPNd session and still > see > the post.. > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > From web at loomcom.com Tue Apr 27 14:42:14 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:42:14 -0700 Subject: 3B2 in Brazil on Facebook In-Reply-To: References: <7dfc01d73b93$e03526d0$a09f7470$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 27, 2021, at 12:36 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > Burnos aires is in Argentina, not in Brazil :/ > Anyway Argentina is near and I have proffessional A3 scanning capabilities. > If you want to save on freight I can receive the manuals and scan them. > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > I am as always extremely interested in preserving the software and documentation. Much of it is probably already imaged (see https://archives.loomcom.com/3b2/ for everything I have mirrored, currently), but it's always good to double-check. I hope someone rescues the hardware, but it won't be me -- I am already up to my ears in 3B2/300's and 3B2/310's! I think it would be great if all of it could find a good home local to Argentina. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From web at loomcom.com Tue Apr 27 17:16:56 2021 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:16:56 -0700 Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? In-Reply-To: <997B5524-BB67-40FC-AE8C-26E6443E471A@btinternet.com> References: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> <877dkyjg3q.fsf@loomcom.com> <1f99b55f-16ed-6cd8-b4d7-d77b20880b88@rickmurphy.net> <59271795-4dcd-4ee2-aaec-abb9c37fbae2@www.fastmail.com> <997B5524-BB67-40FC-AE8C-26E6443E471A@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <9eff6c21-7296-455e-bfd7-31a1457cbcde@www.fastmail.com> Thanks to all the help from this list, I've been able to successfully print some replacement feet for my LK201 keyboards. For anyone interested, the model is now on Thingiverse, here: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4841952 It's not a 100% perfect match by any means, but it's "Good Enough" to get the job done. The fit is snug and solid. I could wish that the clips were a little less brittle, but that's the nature of 3D printing with very small layers. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Apr 27 16:26:00 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:26:00 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13d3e3f0-a718-0445-df30-209b9c0f4892@alembic.crystel.com> Wait, that 11/45 looks to have an MS11-LK memory board in it. I assume that's just normal slow Unibus memory, or was it also able to be installed on the FASTBUS? C On 4/27/2021 12:36 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> >> >> On 4/24/21 10:28 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> Noel >>> >>> PS: I wonder how many people here have -11/45's? ISTR one other, but >> they aren't >>> common. > > > The Rhode Island Computer Museum has two. The pair were the interface > between fire pull boxes and the 911 dispatch system in Brooklyn, NY. Both > have DV11 & DH11 serial controllers. These are capable of the very low baud > rates needed to talk to the fire pull boxes. > > https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-11-45 > > -- > Michael Thompson > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 28 08:13:38 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC LK201-AA removable feet dimensions? In-Reply-To: <9eff6c21-7296-455e-bfd7-31a1457cbcde@www.fastmail.com> References: <87lf9es00k.fsf@loomcom.com> <20210419164703.mjowdbf2phgukcn4@x230> <877dkyjg3q.fsf@loomcom.com> <1f99b55f-16ed-6cd8-b4d7-d77b20880b88@rickmurphy.net> <59271795-4dcd-4ee2-aaec-abb9c37fbae2@www.fastmail.com> <997B5524-BB67-40FC-AE8C-26E6443E471A@btinternet.com> <9eff6c21-7296-455e-bfd7-31a1457cbcde@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2021, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > Thanks to all the help from this list, I've been able to successfully > print some replacement feet for my LK201 keyboards. For anyone > interested, the model is now on Thingiverse, here: > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4841952 > > It's not a 100% perfect match by any means, but it's "Good Enough" to > get the job done. The fit is snug and solid. I could wish that the clips > were a little less brittle, but that's the nature of 3D printing with > very small layers. Seth, if you print those in PETG or ABS, you'll get the flexibility that you want. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 28 09:08:26 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO Message-ID: <20210428140826.C17C918C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > I have the M8120 and 4 M8121 boards (32kW bipolar RAM). It is a bit > weird, but in the 11/55 are also two G114 boards (4kW MOS RAM), IIRC. G114s? Those are the sense/inhibit module from the MM11-U/MJ11. Did you mean G401s? If so, one guess as to what happened there is that the machine used to have two banks of MS11 Fastbus memory, one bipolar, and one MOS, and some of the boards from the MOS bank (the memory control, and maybe some of the matrix boards) got removed? A KB11-[AD] can have two banks of MS11; the only type mixing allowed is that one can be all bipolar, and one all MOS; within each bank they all have to be the same. More here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11_Semiconductor_Memory_System Interesting factoid: the M8110 and M8120 use the same etch. I'm not sure quite what the difference is (the MS11-A MM doesn't say, I couldn't find, and I don't think we have the M8120 engineering drawings, just the M8110); the M8120 has a bunch of ECO wires on it, and maybe there are component changes too. (I don't have an M8110 to compare them directly.) Noel From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 28 09:59:49 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 14:59:49 +0000 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210428140826.C17C918C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210428140826.C17C918C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 28 april 2021 16:08 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Re: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO > From: Henk Gooijen > I have the M8120 and 4 M8121 boards (32kW bipolar RAM). It is a bit > weird, but in the 11/55 are also two G114 boards (4kW MOS RAM), IIRC. G114s? Those are the sense/inhibit module from the MM11-U/MJ11. Did you mean G401s? If so, one guess as to what happened there is that the machine used to have two banks of MS11 Fastbus memory, one bipolar, and one MOS, and some of the boards from the MOS bank (the memory control, and maybe some of the matrix boards) got removed? A KB11-[AD] can have two banks of MS11; the only type mixing allowed is that one can be all bipolar, and one all MOS; within each bank they all have to be the same. More here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11_Semiconductor_Memory_System Interesting factoid: the M8110 and M8120 use the same etch. I'm not sure quite what the difference is (the MS11-A MM doesn't say, I couldn't find, and I don't think we have the M8120 engineering drawings, just the M8110); the M8120 has a bunch of ECO wires on it, and maybe there are component changes too. (I don't have an M8110 to compare them directly.) Noel Thanks for the correction Noel. I ?knew? that G114 was not correct ? Indeed, G401 is better! One day, I will work on the /45 eand /55 ? Henk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 28 11:14:31 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO Message-ID: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > The KB11-B (original 11/70) and KB11-C (later 11/70) have essentially > the same changes as from the KB11-A to KB11-D Speaking of which, two of the boards that are different in the KB11-D, from the -A, are _identical_ to boards in the KB11-C - the M8123 ROM & ROM control and the M8132 instruction register decode! (The M8123 is also different from the M8133 board in the KB11-B.) Pretty wierd that the -11/45 and -11/70 CPUs share two boards, but true! (The FP11 boards are the same in both, too.) > It sure would be nice to get backplane wirelists for all four (KB11-A, > -B, -C, and -D). ISTR a previous, un-fulfilled request for the -11/70 wirelist, so it's been missing for a while. We _might_ have the -11/45 wirelist: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/1145_System_Engineering_Drawings_Jun74.pdf but it's short (pp. 128-132), so maybe it's not complete)? Two other print sets seem to have the same list: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/1145_System_Engineering_Drawings_Jun76.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1155/MP00039_1155vol1_Mar76.pdf (pp. 45-49 and pp 131-135 respectively). > Also, I'm looking for a Field Maintenance Print Set for the RH70. Heh. I didn't see it online; the manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/CSS-MO-F-5.2-27_RH70_Option_Description_Feb77.pdf is a CSS document, which makes no sense, because the CPU backplane is laid out to have room for four, so it's an integral part of the /70 CPU - so why is it a CSS product? Anyway, the print set listed there seems like it might be a CSS thing, too. I see that the CHM seems to have a set: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102749003 so maybe Al will take pity on us and scan it! I looked in my /70 print set, and although it contains all sorts of odds and ends (including MJ11 prints - which kind of half makes sense, since that was the only main memory option on early /70's), it doesn't have the RH70. (I didn't see the MJ11 prints on BitSavers, so I was thinking I was going to have to scan them, but on further looking I found them on deramp.com.) Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Apr 28 11:51:13 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 09:51:13 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <991FD400-07E3-4EF6-A9F0-D95E7BE8EB62@fritzm.org> > On Apr 28, 2021, at 9:14 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ISTR a previous, un-fulfilled request for the -11/70 wirelist, so it's been > missing for a while. > > We _might_ have the -11/45 wirelist: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/1145_System_Engineering_Drawings_Jun74.pdf > > but it's short (pp. 128-132), so maybe it's not complete)? Two other > print sets seem to have the same list: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/1145_System_Engineering_Drawings_Jun76.pdf > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1155/MP00039_1155vol1_Mar76.pdf > > (pp. 45-49 and pp 131-135 respectively). I've been looking for 11/45 backplane wire lists for many years, but have never found them. (Noel: the wire lists in the bitsavers 11/45 drawing sets are actually for the power harness, and not for the backplane.) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 28 11:51:47 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 09:51:47 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> On 4/28/21 9:14 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102749003 > > so maybe Al will take pity on us and scan it! I'll see what I can do. I have other 45/70 drawings that i haven't pdf'ed I need to see if they are different revs than what I already have From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Apr 28 12:19:41 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:19:41 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> References: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <85AF4339-D0FA-4AF2-AF0E-3F9D48239DBE@fritzm.org> > On Apr 28, 2021, at 9:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I have other 45/70 drawings that i haven't pdf'ed > I need to see if they are different revs than what I already have Ohh... I'd be very, *very* interested to see versions of the /45 drawings other than the two sets that are commonly available! I've been collecting/compiling detailed information about ECOs and board revs for the KB11-A (for example, the one that launched this thread!), and looking at diffs between the two available drawing sets has been a valuable technique for shaking out hints and clues about things otherwise undocumented. Having more to draw from here would be *super* helpful. A fairly complete summary of things puzzled out so far, for those of you with /45s who may be interested, is here: https://fritzm.github.io/ecos.html cheers, --FritzM. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 28 12:44:46 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:44:46 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> References: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46935979-26a0-2356-b421-d2da4d39b856@bitsavers.org> On 4/28/21 9:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/28/21 9:14 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> ?? https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102749003 >> >> so maybe Al will take pity on us and scan it! > > I'll see what I can do. > > I have other 45/70 drawings that i haven't pdf'ed > I need to see if they are different revs than what I already have > I've added two more RH drawings to the ones already under pdf/dec/unibus From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 28 19:30:54 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 17:30:54 -0700 Subject: 11/70 system drawing set Message-ID: <3d8fcc86-00fd-22d2-15db-6f76eb0f7421@bitsavers.org> I just uploaded a drawing set that includes KB11-B and C information to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Apr 29 01:52:22 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:52:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <85AF4339-D0FA-4AF2-AF0E-3F9D48239DBE@fritzm.org> References: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> <85AF4339-D0FA-4AF2-AF0E-3F9D48239DBE@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 2021, Fritz Mueller wrote: >> On Apr 28, 2021, at 9:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have other 45/70 drawings that i haven't pdf'ed >> I need to see if they are different revs than what I already have > > Ohh... I'd be very, *very* interested to see versions of the /45 > drawings other than the two sets that are commonly available! I should fetch the drawings from my 11/45 from my parent's home the next time I visit them. I would then scan them regardless whether they are already available or not ;-) Christian From edcross at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 02:43:25 2021 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:43:25 +0200 Subject: 11/70 system drawing set In-Reply-To: <3d8fcc86-00fd-22d2-15db-6f76eb0f7421@bitsavers.org> References: <3d8fcc86-00fd-22d2-15db-6f76eb0f7421@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: This is great, thx On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 02:31 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I just uploaded a drawing set that includes KB11-B and C information to > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170 > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 29 05:28:25 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 03:28:25 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <85AF4339-D0FA-4AF2-AF0E-3F9D48239DBE@fritzm.org> References: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> <85AF4339-D0FA-4AF2-AF0E-3F9D48239DBE@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <36b4baf7-5f37-dbcc-7477-4140a29a911c@bitsavers.org> On 4/28/21 10:19 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Ohh... I'd be very, *very* interested to see versions of the /45 drawings other than the two sets that are commonly available! http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/KB11-A_revS_Engineering_Drawings_Dec1973.pdf From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Apr 29 10:39:40 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:39:40 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11/45 backplane +5 ECO In-Reply-To: <36b4baf7-5f37-dbcc-7477-4140a29a911c@bitsavers.org> References: <20210428161431.3759818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <45665bc5-b21d-cb39-00b0-cbb3b2f577df@bitsavers.org> <85AF4339-D0FA-4AF2-AF0E-3F9D48239DBE@fritzm.org> <36b4baf7-5f37-dbcc-7477-4140a29a911c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/KB11-A_revS_Engineering_Drawings_Dec1973.pdf Thanks very much, Al! From geniibuntu at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 11:56:17 2021 From: geniibuntu at gmail.com (Michael Kaulbach) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:56:17 -0400 Subject: Free assorted manuals Message-ID: Spring cleaning. Will be recycled otherwise. While most are probably not of interest to this group it's possible someone may want the SCSI related items like the ES-1000C flatbed scanner manual or Yamaha CRW8424SX manual or the Adaptec stuff. I'm in downtown Toronto, Canada. On Freenode IRC my nick is genii imgur gallery of the stuff https://imgur.com/a/USejVEv -- "..we are dwarfs astride the shoulders of giants. We master their wisdom and move beyond it. Due to their wisdom we grow wise and are able to say all that we say, but not because we are greater than they." Isaiah di Trani From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 15:19:20 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 22:19:20 +0200 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is a link of some photos I took some hurry during the evening. https://imgur.com/a/zN3tZAV Does it make any sense to you? There were same cables that was obscuring the view which were hard to get out of the way. Please tell me if you can make any sense out of it. A quick check of the drawings didn?t reveal any module placement drawing. I will check in more detail tomorrow. /Mattis s?ndag 25 april 2021 skrev Josh Dersch : > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 1:55 PM Mattis Lind wrote: > >> >> >> Den s?n 25 apr. 2021 kl 22:43 skrev Josh Dersch via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org>: >> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> In addition to the 11/45 project I'm also working on restoring an >>> RF08/RS08 >>> fixed head disk/controller (in the vain hopes of one day running TSS/8 on >>> my PDP-8/I). I have the power supply repaired and running and I'm >>> getting >>> ready to power the logic up (the disc itself will be a project all its >>> own, >>> once it arrives). >>> >>> I'd like to double-check that all the flip chips are in their right >>> places; >>> I have no cause to think they've been shuffled around but I want to be >>> sure. The engineering docs have detailed schematics but no placement >>> chart >>> for the modules themselves. Given enough time with the schematics I >>> could >>> derive this chart but I'm saving that as a last resort. So, two >>> possibilities here: >>> >>> 1) Does anyone know of a document I've overlooked that includes module >>> placement? >>> 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of >>> the >>> logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the >>> available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my >>> possession, so are not useful in this regard!) >>> >>> >> I have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It was connected to a PDP-8/L, but the >> cabinet with the DW08 was missing. >> I can take a bunch of pictures next weekend. >> >> I have a vague idea that I have a bunch of docs with the unit. Double >> ledger size or around A2. I will have a look. >> > > Thanks! That will be very helpful! > > >> Would be very interesting to read your story when repairing it! >> > > I'm going to try to write about it, we'll see how good I am about keeping > up. Still slowly writing things up about the 11/70 from earlier this year > and I'm behind on just about everything. I imagine getting an actual > physical disk working is going to be an unlikely prospect, my plan is to > develop some hardware to emulate one or more RS08 drives, eventually. But > I want to try the real thing first :). > > - Josh > > > >> >> /Mattis >> >> >> >>> Thanks! >>> - Josh >>> >> From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 16:24:09 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 23:24:09 +0200 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did another check of the drawings and found a module list. Initially I was looking for something more graphic then I found this: https://imgur.com/a/hzmhwQ4 Hope it helps. /Mattis s?ndag 25 april 2021 skrev Josh Dersch : > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 1:55 PM Mattis Lind wrote: > >> >> >> Den s?n 25 apr. 2021 kl 22:43 skrev Josh Dersch via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org>: >> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> In addition to the 11/45 project I'm also working on restoring an >>> RF08/RS08 >>> fixed head disk/controller (in the vain hopes of one day running TSS/8 on >>> my PDP-8/I). I have the power supply repaired and running and I'm >>> getting >>> ready to power the logic up (the disc itself will be a project all its >>> own, >>> once it arrives). >>> >>> I'd like to double-check that all the flip chips are in their right >>> places; >>> I have no cause to think they've been shuffled around but I want to be >>> sure. The engineering docs have detailed schematics but no placement >>> chart >>> for the modules themselves. Given enough time with the schematics I >>> could >>> derive this chart but I'm saving that as a last resort. So, two >>> possibilities here: >>> >>> 1) Does anyone know of a document I've overlooked that includes module >>> placement? >>> 2) Can someone with an RF08 and/or RS08 take a few detailed pictures of >>> the >>> logic (from the handle side, of course) so I can compare? (Note: the >>> available RF08/RS08 pictures on the 'net are of the unit currently in my >>> possession, so are not useful in this regard!) >>> >>> >> I have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It was connected to a PDP-8/L, but the >> cabinet with the DW08 was missing. >> I can take a bunch of pictures next weekend. >> >> I have a vague idea that I have a bunch of docs with the unit. Double >> ledger size or around A2. I will have a look. >> > > Thanks! That will be very helpful! > > >> Would be very interesting to read your story when repairing it! >> > > I'm going to try to write about it, we'll see how good I am about keeping > up. Still slowly writing things up about the 11/70 from earlier this year > and I'm behind on just about everything. I imagine getting an actual > physical disk working is going to be an unlikely prospect, my plan is to > develop some hardware to emulate one or more RS08 drives, eventually. But > I want to try the real thing first :). > > - Josh > > > >> >> /Mattis >> >> >> >>> Thanks! >>> - Josh >>> >> From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 16:39:17 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 14:39:17 -0700 Subject: DEC RF08/RS08 module placement info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 2:24 PM Mattis Lind wrote: > I did another check of the drawings and found a module list. > > Initially I was looking for something more graphic then I found this: > > https://imgur.com/a/hzmhwQ4 > > Hope it helps. > > /Mattis > Thanks so much, both for the pictures of your RF/RS08 and of the engineering drawings, those will be extremely helpful. I've never seen those drawings before, the module list you have is definitely not in the ones available on Bitsavers. - Josh