From julf at julf.com Mon Mar 1 14:02:50 2021 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 21:02:50 +0100 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers Message-ID: RLX Technologies pioneered the blade server concept between 1999 and 2005 (when they got acquired by HP). I have two of their early RLX 24 blade enclosures, one fully populated with 24 transmeta-based processor blades, and the other with 19 blades. Julf From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 1 14:40:15 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 12:40:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: from Johan Helsingius via cctalk at "Mar 1, 21 09:02:50 pm" Message-ID: <202103012040.121KeF6S16908296@floodgap.com> > RLX Technologies pioneered the blade server concept between 1999 and 2005 > (when they got acquired by HP). I have two of their early RLX 24 blade > enclosures, one fully populated with 24 transmeta-based processor blades, > and the other with 19 blades. Wait. Transmeta?? Which chip, specifically? I assume running in x86 mode. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is not enough. --------------------------------------------------- From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Mar 1 14:53:43 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:53:43 -0700 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 3/1/21 1:02 PM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > RLX Technologies pioneered the blade server concept between 1999 > and 2005 (when they got acquired by HP). I have two of their early > RLX 24 blade enclosures, one fully populated with 24 transmeta-based > processor blades, and the other with 19 blades. I'd be interested in pictures if you have some handy. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From boris at summitclinic.com Tue Mar 2 00:40:41 2021 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 22:40:41 -0800 Subject: Any interest in a Floating Point Systems AP-120 array processor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210302070257.BACD84E675@mx2.ezwind.net> That appears to be an earlier model of a similar system we had at UBC which could crunch arrays of FP numbers at 10 Mflops. Had it connected to an 11/44 and just recall doing some frantic programming mainly involving using minimal code as had to use memory management to allocate memory pages to get data into array processor and then fetch results. Realized at that time that a 56 Kb memory space was a bit limited for this type of work. Did FFT far faster than 11/23 (which took 1 second for 1024 points using DEC's code that shipped with MINC) but still had to do overnight runs to analyze a lot of our data. Likely have bad memories of that part of my programming career as we were under some rather tight deadlines to analyze data to get a few papers published and I much preferred writing in PDP11 assembler as very rarely had to deal with running out of memory issues with data acquisition code. Out of curiousity, decided to benchmark one of my old, really cheap PC laptops that got in 2010 and it managed 30 Mflops using double precision arithmetic. 10 Mflop performance no longer as impressive as it used to be. >I picked this up a number of years ago for reasons that entirely escape >me. It's certainly neat, but I don't see myself ever actually using it and >it's large and heavy. > >Documented here: >http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/fps/7259-02_AP-120B_procHbk.pdf > >Mine appears to have a DEC-style interface but I'm unsure what it talks to >on the DEC side of things. > >I can take pictures if there's interest, but it's fairly nondescript, just >a large white box with rack-mount ears and a small panel with some switches >on it. > >It's in the Seattle area if anyone wants it, and it's free! Shipping is... >not something I really want to think about right now. > >- Josh From julf at julf.com Tue Mar 2 04:37:11 2021 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:37:11 +0100 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: <202103012040.121KeF6S16908296@floodgap.com> References: <202103012040.121KeF6S16908296@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1458890b-c041-6180-9e1d-59f059731d2e@julf.com> On 01-03-2021 21:40, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > Wait. Transmeta?? Which chip, specifically? I assume running in x86 mode. Crusoe (TM5600), 633 MHz Definitely in x86 mode (the blades came preconfigured with either Windows or Red Hat). Each blade could have 128, 256 or 512M of DIMM SDRAM, and have 3 network interfaces and one or two 2.5" hard disks. The chassis has two hot-swappable 450W supplies. Julf From julf at julf.com Tue Mar 2 04:47:15 2021 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:47:15 +0100 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <63222989-970b-1357-856d-452ee768a90a@julf.com> On 01-03-2021 21:53, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'd be interested in pictures if you have some handy. Don't seem to be able to attach pics to messages to cctalk, but sent you a private message. Found some old stuff on the web: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2591907/ibm-agrees-to-resell-rlx-high-density-servers.html https://people.cs.vt.edu/~feng/pubs/papers/warren-sc2002-beowulf.pdf https://www.zdnet.com/article/server-blades-density-versus-flexibility/ https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5692 Julf From julf at julf.com Tue Mar 2 04:07:34 2021 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:07:34 +0100 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <253bce60-25f5-4ec2-40c2-9e87c2d1fd93@julf.com> On 01-03-2021 21:53, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'd be interested in pictures if you have some handy. Not sure pics make it to the list, but trying... Julf From julf at julf.com Tue Mar 2 05:25:13 2021 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 12:25:13 +0100 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 01-03-2021 21:53, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'd be interested in pictures if you have some handy. Here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zGydaWcxE5v7ngdk7 Julf From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Tue Mar 2 05:26:59 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 05:26:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: <253bce60-25f5-4ec2-40c2-9e87c2d1fd93@julf.com> References: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <253bce60-25f5-4ec2-40c2-9e87c2d1fd93@julf.com> Message-ID: <1360163553.225006.1614684419873@email.ionos.com> > On 03/02/2021 4:07 AM Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > Not sure pics make it to the list, but trying... > > Julf The list only allows plain text, no pictures (not even html text) Will "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein From julf at julf.com Tue Mar 2 05:42:47 2021 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 12:42:47 +0100 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: <1360163553.225006.1614684419873@email.ionos.com> References: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <253bce60-25f5-4ec2-40c2-9e87c2d1fd93@julf.com> <1360163553.225006.1614684419873@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <849ab892-282b-ee00-e913-77141e76c24c@julf.com> That's what I suspected. Thanks! Julf On 02-03-2021 12:26, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: > > >> On 03/02/2021 4:07 AM Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > >> Not sure pics make it to the list, but trying... >> >> Julf > > The list only allows plain text, no pictures (not even html text) > > Will > > "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Mar 2 06:06:24 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:06:24 +0100 Subject: Any interest in a Floating Point Systems AP-120 array processor? In-Reply-To: <20210302070257.BACD84E675@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210302070257.BACD84E675@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 01, 2021 at 10:40:41PM -0800, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: [...] > Out of curiousity, decided to benchmark one of my old, really cheap PC > laptops that got in 2010 and it managed 30 Mflops using double precision > arithmetic. 10 Mflop performance no longer as impressive as it used to be. I'll say. Modern kit gets 1 FLOPS per MHz per core, give or take an order of magnitude depending on the specific architecture. That machine must have been appallingly bad to only manage 30 MFLOPS. Although perhaps you meant GFLOPS, in which case it sounds about right. The Haswell CPU in my 2014-vintage laptop manages "up to" 147 GFLOPS. Which is an order of magnitude slower than its GPU. Useful FLOPS for scientific computing rather than contrived numbers for benchmarking may well lose an order of magnitude or two in overhead, but it's still not hanging about. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Mar 2 08:37:58 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:37:58 +0100 Subject: Any interest in a Floating Point Systems AP-120 array processor? In-Reply-To: References: <20210302070257.BACD84E675@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 02, 2021 at 01:06:24PM +0100, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: [...] > I'll say. Modern kit gets 1 FLOPS per MHz per core [...] And indeed with the speed of modern machines with clock speeds in the GHz and TFLOPS, and thousands of cores in some devices, we use large SI multipliers so routinely we kind of forget they're there at all, and I made a typo. It should of course be should be "1 FLOPS per Hz per core", or "1 MFLOPS per MHz per core". From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Mar 2 08:55:36 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 06:55:36 -0800 Subject: DS20 Alpha System Message-ID: I've got rights to a fairly nice system located in St. Louis.? It has working streaming tapes as well as half inch, all working. It is on till this coming weekend. The full system is a single bay, I've been told is 7' tall on casters.? I won't let it be scrapped if possible, but I'd like it to go off the floor directly to someone interested and not have to use favors to get help having it moved out. It will be skinned of an addin UPS but otherwise disconnected and put to one side till it can be picked up. Told the location has dock high, but no word on how that is accessible or what type it is.? Might be able to move dock high to dock high anyway. Let me know if there's interest.? I will have to have possession of the drives, but will make sure the hardware that goes with them is kept.? I hope I can zero them and pass it along. Cabling will be boxed as appropriate and will be included. Let me know if you are interested, and pass it along.? I know it's a dual processor, but don't have other info right handy here. thanks Jim From leec2124 at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 10:41:11 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 08:41:11 -0800 Subject: DS20 Alpha System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is a nice, albeit somewhat slow, Alpha system. I have one but need a replacement power supply - anyone have one or pointers to one? THanks! Lee Courtney On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 6:55 AM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I've got rights to a fairly nice system located in St. Louis. It has > working streaming tapes as well as half inch, all working. > > It is on till this coming weekend. > > The full system is a single bay, I've been told is 7' tall on casters. > I won't let it be scrapped if possible, but I'd like it to go off the > floor directly to someone interested and not have to use favors to get > help having it moved out. > > It will be skinned of an addin UPS but otherwise disconnected and put to > one side till it can be picked up. > > Told the location has dock high, but no word on how that is accessible > or what type it is. Might be able to move dock high to dock high anyway. > > Let me know if there's interest. I will have to have possession of the > drives, but will make sure the hardware that goes with them is kept. I > hope I can zero them and pass it along. > > Cabling will be boxed as appropriate and will be included. > > Let me know if you are interested, and pass it along. I know it's a > dual processor, but don't have other info right handy here. > > thanks > Jim > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Mar 2 11:25:32 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:25:32 -0700 Subject: Any interest in RLX blade servers In-Reply-To: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <2965a84d-d56a-9659-876b-15bc8791d693@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 3/1/21 1:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'd be interested in pictures if you have some handy. Thank you for indulging my curiosity Johan. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Mar 2 11:41:29 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 09:41:29 -0800 Subject: DS20 Alpha System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E9A0AD6-0892-43D0-AE70-0F243D07FBEA@avanthar.com> > On Mar 2, 2021, at 8:41 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > > That is a nice, albeit somewhat slow, Alpha system. I have one but need a > replacement power supply - anyone have one or pointers to one? THanks! > > Lee Courtney Have you tried: https://www.islandco.com/hp-parts/alphaserver-alphastation-power-supplies Though it looks like they have DS20e and DS25 Power supplies, I?m not sure if those will work in a DS20. Zane From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Mar 2 12:19:36 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 12:19:36 -0600 Subject: DS20 Alpha System In-Reply-To: <1E9A0AD6-0892-43D0-AE70-0F243D07FBEA@avanthar.com> References: <1E9A0AD6-0892-43D0-AE70-0F243D07FBEA@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 3/2/2021 11:41 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Mar 2, 2021, at 8:41 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: >> >> That is a nice, albeit somewhat slow, Alpha system. I have one but need a >> replacement power supply - anyone have one or pointers to one? THanks! >> >> Lee Courtney > Have you tried: > https://www.islandco.com/hp-parts/alphaserver-alphastation-power-supplies > > Though it looks like they have DS20e and DS25 Power supplies, I?m not sure if those will work in a DS20. > > Zane I wonder if it might actually be a DS20e since it's apparently in a rack.? Way back when, I had two DS20's in a rack (and a DS10), but it was a kluge like thing where they just sat on shelves in the rack.? I think the shelves had slides, but we never did that. Fortunately, never needed to. -- John H. Reinhardt From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Mar 2 12:37:05 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:37:05 -0800 Subject: Any interest in a Floating Point Systems AP-120 array processor? In-Reply-To: References: <20210302070257.BACD84E675@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <2FFF14D9-806D-42A1-9353-B5B9249BC71A@avanthar.com> > On Mar 2, 2021, at 4:06 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 01, 2021 at 10:40:41PM -0800, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Out of curiousity, decided to benchmark one of my old, really cheap PC >> laptops that got in 2010 and it managed 30 Mflops using double precision >> arithmetic. 10 Mflop performance no longer as impressive as it used to be. > > I'll say. Modern kit gets 1 FLOPS per MHz per core, give or take an order of > magnitude depending on the specific architecture. That machine must have > been appallingly bad to only manage 30 MFLOPS. Although perhaps you meant > GFLOPS, in which case it sounds about right. > > The Haswell CPU in my 2014-vintage laptop manages "up to" 147 GFLOPS. Which > is an order of magnitude slower than its GPU. Useful FLOPS for scientific > computing rather than contrived numbers for benchmarking may well lose an > order of magnitude or two in overhead, but it's still not hanging about. If I remember correctly the Apple PowerMac G4 was touted as the first Consumer system capable of GFLOPS. The G4/450 when released, was an amazing system, but it was very quickly left in the dust. Floating Point Systems was a few miles away from where I live. A couple weeks ago, we drove by there, and I noticed that at least the main office building is still there. I used to work with a couple of people that had worked there. Years ago I found one of the Array Processors at Wacky Willies, I didn?t get it, but I did get the PDP-11/44 manual that was with it. I think I might have a VAX tape around here for one of their Array Processors. Zane From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 14:08:42 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:08:42 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/I vs 8/E EAE Message-ID: Has anyone noticed a difference in DVI overflow behavior on the PDP-8/I EAE versus the PDP-8/E EAE? The 8/E EAE claims to be 8/I compatible in Mode A, and I think I agree, for the most part. At least, it's compatible for the parts that matter. When a DVI instruction results in overflow, the EAE immediately returns with the link set. The results in AC and MQ seem to have no relevance, but they appear to differ between the 8/E and 8/I. For instance, running the 8/I MUY/DVI diagnostics under SimH fails due to the following: sim> lo maindec/maindec-8i-d0ba-pb.bin sim> d sr 40 sim> g 201 DIVERR L C(AC) C(MQ) C(MB) PROB 0 000000000000 000000000000 000000000000 GOOD 1 111111111111 000000000000 000000000000 BAD 1 000000000000 000000000001 000000000000 SCA 000000000000 HALT instruction, PC: 01512 (JMP I 1506) The link is set, but obviously MQ and AC do not match. Running the same diagnostic on an 8/I works fine. I can't imagine a scenario outside of diagnostics where this behavior would impact the software, but it does seem curious nevertheless that the DVI approach to handling overflow differs slightly between EAEs on the 8/I and 8/E. Kyle From jason at smbfc.net Tue Mar 2 15:30:29 2021 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 13:30:29 -0800 Subject: DS20 Alpha System In-Reply-To: References: <1E9A0AD6-0892-43D0-AE70-0F243D07FBEA@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <32b201aa34b44f6c0f36a436d59c75ca9e205246.camel@smbfc.net> The DS20 and the DS20e were both available in either pedistal or rack configurations. The DS20 came first and was basically just the new generation guts crammed into the older style AlphaServer case (about the size of a 2 drawer filling cabinet). The DS20e came out a bit later and was much narrower/shorter case (Depending on pedistal/rack config respectively). The two are (as far as I know) electricallyidentical. --Jason On Tue, 2021-03-02 at 12:19 -0600, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 3/2/2021 11:41 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > On Mar 2, 2021, at 8:41 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > That is a nice, albeit somewhat slow, Alpha system. I have one > > > but need a > > > replacement power supply - anyone have one or pointers to one? > > > THanks! > > > > > > Lee Courtney > > Have you tried: > > https://www.islandco.com/hp-parts/alphaserver-alphastation-power-supplies > > > > Though it looks like they have DS20e and DS25 Power supplies, I?m > > not sure if those will work in a DS20. > > > > Zane > > I wonder if it might actually be a DS20e since it's apparently in a > rack. Way back when, I had two DS20's in a rack (and a DS10), but it > was a kluge like thing where they just sat on shelves in the rack. I > think the shelves had slides, but we never did that. Fortunately, > never needed to. > From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 16:23:08 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:23:08 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/I vs 8/E EAE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't know if you have seen this - might be helpful http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cp0306.htm On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > Has anyone noticed a difference in DVI overflow behavior on the PDP-8/I EAE > versus the PDP-8/E EAE? The 8/E EAE claims to be 8/I compatible in Mode A, > and I think I agree, for the most part. At least, it's compatible for the > parts that matter. > > When a DVI instruction results in overflow, the EAE immediately returns > with the link set. The results in AC and MQ seem to have no relevance, but > they appear to differ between the 8/E and 8/I. > > For instance, running the 8/I MUY/DVI diagnostics under SimH fails due to > the following: > > sim> lo maindec/maindec-8i-d0ba-pb.bin > sim> d sr 40 > sim> g 201 > > > > DIVERR L C(AC) C(MQ) C(MB) > > PROB 0 000000000000 000000000000 000000000000 > > GOOD 1 111111111111 000000000000 000000000000 > BAD 1 000000000000 000000000001 000000000000 > > SCA 000000000000 > > HALT instruction, PC: 01512 (JMP I 1506) > > The link is set, but obviously MQ and AC do not match. > > Running the same diagnostic on an 8/I works fine. > > I can't imagine a scenario outside of diagnostics where this behavior would > impact the software, but it does seem curious nevertheless that the DVI > approach to handling overflow differs slightly between EAEs on the 8/I and > 8/E. > > Kyle From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 19:27:53 2021 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 20:27:53 -0500 Subject: Massbus - was: Re: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <4Dmt6C1ksZzfYm@panix5.panix.com> References: <20210225183029.1F27718C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <800f96fa-ff49-eb9b-8e65-fcd5f5176e08@alembic.crystel.com> <4Dmt6C1ksZzfYm@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 at 21:32, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > As for operating system support, the only DEC operating system which could put > tapes and disks on the same Massbus was TOPS-20. Tops-10 explicitly tells you > in the SYSGEN process that disks and tapes must reside on different channels; I > believe that ITS follows that same principle. WAITS, although originally a > highly divergent offshoot of Tops-10, took the Massbus code from TOPS-20 v5 > when it was ported to a KL-10 at SAIL, so could in theory have disk and tape on > the same channel. > RSX-11/M+ should as well. It is possible during SYSGEN to define a "mixed MASSBUS". Best regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 2 22:41:14 2021 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 22:41:14 -0600 Subject: Searching for Elevated socket Message-ID: IN my continuing Digitalker saga, I did find a couple not horribly priced Digitalker ICs online and purchased them.? As one arrived, I found that my original IC was actually OK, but the cable from the computer to the device has issues. I've traced it to what looks like a heavy duty 16 pin IC socket on the board that plugs into the computer, and into which a 16 pin 2x8 .3" DIP IDC header plugs into (with the IDC cable going to another such header, which plugs into a similar socket on the main synthesizer PCB). The socket has the same basic footprint as a normal 2x8 16 pin .3" IC socket, but it's much heavier duty.? I could replace with a simple leaf socket, but would prefer to find a direct replacement. Though I am sure other manufacturers sold similar, I find that Aries sells that I need.? It's an Aries 16-8430-10 (or could be an Aries 16-8480-10 ) elevated IC socket.? The link below shows the units: http://www.beckwithelectronics.com/ARIES/8xxx.htm Digikey has the 14 pin version in stock, but no 16 pin ones, and neither does Mouser.? I'll keep searching, but they are very expensive and I'm not sure I need 40 of them (minimum Digikey order). Thus, I am wondering if someone on list has 1 or 2 they might be interested in selling for the cause. The good news is that I was able to get the connection to work, and now the unit operates as designed. Still, I do not trust the socket. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 3 00:01:14 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 22:01:14 -0800 Subject: Searching for Elevated socket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c7800c7-4ddc-81ca-970c-5792fc43d2cb@sydex.com> On 3/2/21 8:41 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > IN my continuing Digitalker saga, I did find a couple not horribly > priced Digitalker ICs online and purchased them.? As one arrived, I > found that my original IC was actually OK, but the cable from the > computer to the device has issues. > > I've traced it to what looks like a heavy duty 16 pin IC socket on the > board that plugs into the computer, and into which a 16 pin 2x8 .3" DIP > IDC header plugs into (with the IDC cable going to another such header, > which plugs into a similar socket on the main synthesizer PCB). > > The socket has the same basic footprint as a normal 2x8 16 pin .3" IC > socket, but it's much heavier duty.? I could replace with a simple leaf > socket, but would prefer to find a direct replacement. How about a plain old machine-pin pin wire-wrap socket? I can remember cobbling such a thing up back when. --Chuck From compoobah at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 12:23:05 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 10:23:05 -0800 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? Message-ID: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> Looking for suggestions on hobbyist PIC setup. So far I have just used Arduino type direct-connect microcontrollers (back in the day programmers for general devices were expensive), but the currently existing SGI proprietary system to PS/2 keyboard adapter is PIC (and I have a couple different systems that all use my single SGI proprietary keyboard). Any gotchas with the PICKit-3 clones out there? I have the feeling that sticking with PIC would be better than trying to port to Arduino, and imagine that as things continue to age there will be more applications for interfaces. Any better but still cheapish alternatives for programming? From lee.gleason at comcast.net Wed Mar 3 12:42:07 2021 From: lee.gleason at comcast.net (Lee Gleason) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 12:42:07 -0600 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? Message-ID: <1a106b64-15d6-b0ae-05d4-18ff1a53a164@comcast.net> ? Saw this on EBAY today - three RK05s with what looks like at least part of RSX11D on them. Who knows, it might be a distribution - RSX11D distributions came on 3 RK05s. https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-RSX-11D-Executive-Programs-Phase-II-3xRK05-DEC-Digital-PDP-1974/353406977959?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D7a0eb90cc60e434aae8c080e337e19f4%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D373481540837%26itm%3D353406977959%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DDEC&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A2a42bf6d-7c4f-11eb-873a-7260bc9e9eed%7Cparentrq%3Af95f330c1770a1b5a55bbf2dfff9e980%7Ciid%3A1 ? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this month, though - would some other RSX historians like to go in together on this (preferably at least one person with an RK05 drive)? ? I'd just like the contents of the disks - I don't care about the physical disks, just what's on 'em -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net From rp at servium.ch Wed Mar 3 01:20:30 2021 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 23:20:30 -0800 Subject: SPARCengine CP1200 Message-ID: I just acquired a Sun SPARCengine CP1200. To my knowledge the CP1200 is the only 32bit SPARC with a PCI bus, which makes it pretty cool. It was also extremely unpopular, because who wants a 100MHz MicroSPARC IIep when you can have a SPARCengine CP1500 with a 270MHz UltraSPARC IIi (they were released at the same time, and I suspect the cost difference wasn't all that much). Would anyone know where I can find a Sun PROM image? mine has a VxWorks ROM, but I'd rather run Solaris on it. I've searched everywhere, and couldn't find anything. Most "usual" places (e.g. the FE handbook) barely acknowledge its existence if at all. AFAIK this predates field upgradeable flash PROMs, so it's not hidden in a patch somewhere. thanks Rico From roelof_klaas at yahoo.com Wed Mar 3 07:17:45 2021 From: roelof_klaas at yahoo.com (Roland) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:17:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Intellec MCS-8 8008 monitor program ROM files References: <1621591873.52439.1614777465127.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1621591873.52439.1614777465127@mail.yahoo.com> Hello everyone, Does anyone have the?Intellec MCS-8 8008 system monitor ROM files? According to the Intellec MCS-8 manual the System Monitor is contained in five 1702A PROMs.My ROMs have a disk loader, but the disks system is long gone... Any papertape software is also welcome for this machine! Thanks in advance!Regards, Roland Huisman From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 3 10:25:18 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 10:25:18 -0600 Subject: Intellec MCS-8 8008 monitor program ROM files In-Reply-To: <1621591873.52439.1614777465127@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1621591873.52439.1614777465127.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1621591873.52439.1614777465127@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <603FB86E.7000903@pico-systems.com> On 03/03/2021 07:17 AM, Roland via cctech wrote: > Hello everyone, > Does anyone have the Intellec MCS-8 8008 system monitor ROM files? > According to the Intellec MCS-8 manual the System Monitor is contained in five 1702A PROMs.My ROMs have a disk loader, but the disks system is long gone... > > Any papertape software is also welcome for this machine! > Thanks in advance!Regards, Roland Huisman > Wow, I have an old 8008-based embedded device I built back in 1976. It has the MCS 8008 CPU board, 1702 EPROM board and a RAM board. I never had the system monitor, I did everything on that project "bare iron". I think I did development with a PDP-11 and a homebrew cross assembler. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 10:47:47 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 11:47:47 -0500 Subject: Intellec MCS-8 8008 monitor program ROM files In-Reply-To: <603FB86E.7000903@pico-systems.com> References: <1621591873.52439.1614777465127.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1621591873.52439.1614777465127@mail.yahoo.com> <603FB86E.7000903@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Although this may not be what you're looking for, it's in the ballpark (newer version?): Note the board part number and compare with yours, I don't see off hand which board exactly you have. https://www.vintagecomputer.net/intel/IMM_6-26/ Bill On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 11:25 AM Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 03/03/2021 07:17 AM, Roland via cctech wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > Does anyone have the Intellec MCS-8 8008 system monitor ROM files? > > According to the Intellec MCS-8 manual the System Monitor is contained > in five 1702A PROMs.My ROMs have a disk loader, but the disks system is > long gone... > > > > Any papertape software is also welcome for this machine! > > Thanks in advance!Regards, Roland Huisman > > > Wow, I have an old 8008-based embedded device I built back > in 1976. It has the MCS 8008 CPU board, 1702 EPROM board and > a RAM board. I never had the system monitor, I did > everything on that project "bare iron". I think I did > development with a PDP-11 and a homebrew cross assembler. > > Jon > From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 3 12:47:58 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 13:47:58 -0500 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 03 Mar 2021 10:23:05 -0800.) <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Any gotchas with the PICKit-3 clones out there? I have the feeling > that sticking with PIC would be better than trying to port to > Arduino, and imagine that as things continue to age there will be > more applications for interfaces. Any better but still cheapish > alternatives for programming? IIRC the PK-3 doesn't get any new device support at this point. Existing stuff continues to work. Depending on the nature of the devices you might want to use in the future, it might be worth considering a PK-4. I actually do very little PIC stuff, so I can't speak to which devices, how Microchip removes support from their software, etc. and recommend salt grains here. De From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 3 13:11:12 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 11:11:12 -0800 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <1a106b64-15d6-b0ae-05d4-18ff1a53a164@comcast.net> References: <1a106b64-15d6-b0ae-05d4-18ff1a53a164@comcast.net> Message-ID: <35608111-f6c1-7685-e909-0ef1b3a53d9e@bitsavers.org> On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > ? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this month I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email would be helpful this is way more than I can afford as well. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 3 13:13:57 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 11:13:57 -0800 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <35608111-f6c1-7685-e909-0ef1b3a53d9e@bitsavers.org> References: <1a106b64-15d6-b0ae-05d4-18ff1a53a164@comcast.net> <35608111-f6c1-7685-e909-0ef1b3a53d9e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > >> ?? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this month > I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email would be helpful > this is way more than I can afford as well. I have a set of RK11-D boards w/o backplane that I'll need to sell to help cover the cost if anyone wants to make an offer. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 3 15:26:24 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:26:24 -0800 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 3/3/21 10:47 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Any gotchas with the PICKit-3 clones out there? I have the feeling > > that sticking with PIC would be better than trying to port to > > Arduino, and imagine that as things continue to age there will be > > more applications for interfaces. Any better but still cheapish > > alternatives for programming? > > IIRC the PK-3 doesn't get any new device support at this point. > Existing stuff continues to work. Depending on the nature of the > devices you might want to use in the future, it might be worth > considering a PK-4. I've used a PK-2 on PIC32MX devices. I used MPLAB for a time, but OpenOCD also supports it. After all, it's JTAG, sort of. What chips specifically? On the PIC12 through PIC18 devices, I used the JDM cheapie with PonyProg. Of course, you need a real serial port--I don't know of a USB one will work. Personally, you might find it more interesting to go with some of the STM32 ARM Cortex MCUs. Many are 5V tolerant and will probably be around for a long time. There's even an Arduino suite or two for the low-end ones. --Chuck From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 16:15:17 2021 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 17:15:17 -0500 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: I was a field application engineer for Microchip from 2008-2011, making POCs for big name customers in the bay area using 8, 16 and 32-bit PICs. You will likely find that Microchip support is awful, even if their products are pretty neat. There was an Arduino port for PICs called "ChipKit" but I don't know if that's still being developed. The PicKit 3 is decent, if pretty slow. The ICD3 and later versions are good. MPLAB X is excellent IMO. I should still hold a design partner discount so if you want to get some tools, contact me offline and I'll see if I can save you some money. That all said, I'm a huge fan of the STM32 ARM devices and the community is nearly as good as Nordic, and what Atmel used to be before it was acquired by Microchip. -- Anders Nelson On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 4:26 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/3/21 10:47 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > Any gotchas with the PICKit-3 clones out there? I have the feeling > > > that sticking with PIC would be better than trying to port to > > > Arduino, and imagine that as things continue to age there will be > > > more applications for interfaces. Any better but still cheapish > > > alternatives for programming? > > > > IIRC the PK-3 doesn't get any new device support at this point. > > Existing stuff continues to work. Depending on the nature of the > > devices you might want to use in the future, it might be worth > > considering a PK-4. > > I've used a PK-2 on PIC32MX devices. I used MPLAB for a time, but > OpenOCD also supports it. After all, it's JTAG, sort of. > > What chips specifically? On the PIC12 through PIC18 devices, I used the > JDM cheapie with PonyProg. Of course, you need a real serial port--I > don't know of a USB one will work. > > Personally, you might find it more interesting to go with some of the > STM32 ARM Cortex MCUs. Many are 5V tolerant and will probably be around > for a long time. There's even an Arduino suite or two for the low-end > ones. > > --Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 3 17:27:07 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 15:27:07 -0800 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <9e87062d-0039-fdcd-c45f-c7c1721e0310@sydex.com> On 3/3/21 2:15 PM, Anders Nelson wrote: > I was a field application?engineer for Microchip from 2008-2011, making > POCs for big name customers in the bay area using 8, 16 and 32-bit PICs. > > You will?likely find that Microchip support is awful, even if their > products are pretty neat. There was an Arduino port for PICs called > "ChipKit" but I don't know if that's still being developed. > > The PicKit 3 is decent, if pretty slow. The ICD3 and later versions are > good. MPLAB X is excellent IMO. I should still hold a design partner > discount so if you want to get some tools, contact me offline and I'll > see if I can save you some money. > > That all said, I'm a huge fan of the STM32 ARM devices and the community > is nearly as good as Nordic, and what Atmel used to be before it was > acquired by Microchip. I remember getting a PIC32 Uno32 from Digilent (long given away) that featured a Arduino-compatible library. It was interesting for the time. https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/microprocessor/uno32/start Digilent (wisely) seems to have dropped the MCU line of boards completely and now concentrates on FPGA. But the array of ARM-Cortex boards out there is wonderful. I've still got a parts box full of various AVR and PIC MCUs, but nowadays, I find myself reaching for an STM32 ARM. STM's documentation can be daunting, if you're interested in things at the low level, however. 1000 pages seems to be about the minimum ante in terms of technical documentation, but then there's a lot of functionality built into those bits of fused sand. --Chuck From amp1ron at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 17:44:08 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 18:44:08 -0500 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: References: <1a106b64-15d6-b0ae-05d4-18ff1a53a164@comcast.net> <35608111-f6c1-7685-e909-0ef1b3a53d9e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: No boards for me, but I'll PayPal you a bit towards your purchase. ?On 3/3/21, 2:14 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk" wrote: On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > >> The auction starts at more than I have in my computer budget this month > I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email would be helpful > this is way more than I can afford as well. I have a set of RK11-D boards w/o backplane that I'll need to sell to help cover the cost if anyone wants to make an offer. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Wed Mar 3 22:23:40 2021 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad H) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 04:23:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: digital group's Richard Bemis References: <199148524.289792.1614831820874.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> Hi there, I am working on a 30 minute historical video about the digital group. For source material there isn't a ton of stuff out there unfortunately and much of the account of what happened to the company comes from the late Dr. Robert Suding. In his account, Suding sort of points fingers at Richard "Dick" Bemis for mismanagement of the company. I am wondering if anyone knows what became of Mr. Bemis after his stint running dg. Apart from a couple of (slightly snarky) letters to Dr. Dobb's Journal when dg was still operational, there's literally no trace of him on the internet. If he's still around I'd love to get his side of the story to balance things out, or at least find out what he did afterwards. Thought I'd write here in case anyone knew. Brad From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 18:49:12 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 19:49:12 -0500 Subject: Intellec MCS-8 8008 monitor program ROM files In-Reply-To: References: <1621591873.52439.1614777465127.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1621591873.52439.1614777465127@mail.yahoo.com> <603FB86E.7000903@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: FWIW, I have an MCS-8 User Manual I was about to give away. https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPxTeFNI5YY-Ig_xZihpEyeaVjivCjDrU1_vmOa If either of you want it, it's yours. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 11:48 AM Bill Degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Although this may not be what you're looking for, it's in the ballpark > (newer version?): Note the board part number and compare with yours, I > don't see off hand which board exactly you have. > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/intel/IMM_6-26/ > Bill > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 11:25 AM Jon Elson via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On 03/03/2021 07:17 AM, Roland via cctech wrote: > > > Hello everyone, > > > Does anyone have the Intellec MCS-8 8008 system monitor ROM files? > > > According to the Intellec MCS-8 manual the System Monitor is contained > > in five 1702A PROMs.My ROMs have a disk loader, but the disks system is > > long gone... > > > > > > Any papertape software is also welcome for this machine! > > > Thanks in advance!Regards, Roland Huisman > > > > > Wow, I have an old 8008-based embedded device I built back > > in 1976. It has the MCS 8008 CPU board, 1702 EPROM board and > > a RAM board. I never had the system monitor, I did > > everything on that project "bare iron". I think I did > > development with a PDP-11 and a homebrew cross assembler. > > > > Jon > > > From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 23:59:46 2021 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:59:46 -0800 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: References: <1a106b64-15d6-b0ae-05d4-18ff1a53a164@comcast.net> <35608111-f6c1-7685-e909-0ef1b3a53d9e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I'll chip in too if you won it and can copy the stuff off. Marc On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 3:44 PM Ron Pool via cctalk wrote: > No boards for me, but I'll PayPal you a bit towards your purchase. > > ?On 3/3/21, 2:14 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk" < > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > > > >> The auction starts at more than I have in my computer budget > this month > > I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email > would be helpful > > this is way more than I can afford as well. > > I have a set of RK11-D boards w/o backplane > that I'll need to sell to help cover the cost if > anyone wants to make an offer. > > > From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 00:04:20 2021 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 22:04:20 -0800 Subject: Looking for the numeric pad "1" key on VT-100 vintage keyboard Message-ID: Does anyone out there have a "1" key (the one in the numeric keypad, not the 1 / ! key) that they are willing to sell: me? I saw a couple of partial keyboards go fairly cheap on ePay a couple of months ago but didn't see it until it was sold. Thanks, Marc Howard From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 01:16:21 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 08:16:21 +0100 Subject: Looking for the numeric pad "1" key on VT-100 vintage keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Den tors 4 mars 2021 kl 08:06 skrev Marc Howard via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Does anyone out there have a "1" key (the one in the numeric keypad, not > the 1 / ! key) that they are willing to sell: me? I saw a couple of > partial keyboards go fairly cheap on ePay a couple of months ago but didn't > see it until it was sold. > Here are two VT100 keyboards. One has the "1" key on the numeric keypad. https://www.ebay.com/itm/294035271047 /Mattis > > Thanks, > > Marc Howard > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 4 08:07:53 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 08:07:53 -0600 Subject: digital group's Richard Bemis In-Reply-To: <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> References: <199148524.289792.1614831820874.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20210304141338.64E424E668@mx2.ezwind.net> At 10:23 PM 3/3/2021, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >I am working on a 30 minute historical video about the digital group. For source material there isn't a ton of stuff out there unfortunately and much of the account of what happened to the company comes from the late Dr. Robert Suding. In his account, Suding sort of points fingers at Richard "Dick" Bemis for mismanagement of the company. DG was in Colorado, right? Do you have a middle initial for him? Ancestry.com has a Richard J Bemis divorce in Otero county, CO, in '74. But nothing else for CO. - John From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Thu Mar 4 15:11:14 2021 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad H) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 21:11:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: digital group's Richard Bemis In-Reply-To: <20210304141338.64E424E668@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <199148524.289792.1614831820874.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> <20210304141338.64E424E668@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <639832252.475593.1614892274526@mail.yahoo.com> According to how he signed off on a letter to Dobbs, his initial was C. On Thursday, March 4, 2021, 06:13:40 a.m. PST, John Foust via cctalk wrote: At 10:23 PM 3/3/2021, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >I am working on a 30 minute historical video about the digital group.? For source material there isn't a ton of stuff out there unfortunately and much of the account of what happened to the company comes from the late Dr. Robert Suding.? In his account, Suding sort of points fingers at Richard "Dick" Bemis for mismanagement of the company.? DG was in Colorado, right?? Do you have a middle initial for him?? Ancestry.com has a Richard J Bemis divorce in Otero county, CO, in '74. But nothing else for CO. - John From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Thu Mar 4 15:55:05 2021 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 21:55:05 +0000 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay Message-ID: Is anyone from this list bidding on this. If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe Sent from my iPhone From edcross at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 03:03:12 2021 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 10:03:12 +0100 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not me, but please ping me if you do and would like to part one of the 11/73. Regards. On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:25 AM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone from this list bidding on this. > If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room > for it. > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > From lars at nocrew.org Fri Mar 5 03:55:04 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 09:55:04 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes Message-ID: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, Someone sent me these magtape images from Tymshare and said "they fell off the back of a truck on route 62 in Hudson, MASS." I don't know their provenance. Sorry, I don't have any good hosting. For now they are here: https://gitlab.com/larsbrinkhoff/tymshare The download.sh script will retrieve individual files one by one rather than cloning the repository; next use cat.sh to get the .tape.bz2 files. The tape format is close to not not quite FAILSAFE. With help from Joe Smith, I made a tool to extract the files: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/pdp10-its-disassembler/blob/master/tito.c From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 5 06:19:37 2021 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:19:37 +0100 Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff Message-ID: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> Hi, I habe some pdp10 related docs which need to go away. Anybody interested? Or should I dump it (and reuse the white folders foro pdp8 stuff)? https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0r5oqs3qGclUOi Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Klus 16 31073 Delligsen Mobil: 0171/2632239 UStdID DE 202668329 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 5 06:30:51 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 04:30:51 -0800 Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff In-Reply-To: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> References: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> Message-ID: On 3/5/21 4:19 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > I habe some pdp10 related docs which need to go away. > Anybody interested? Or should I dump it (and reuse the white folders foro pdp8 stuff)? I would think Lars Brinkhoff would want them From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 08:30:47 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 15:30:47 +0100 Subject: digital group's Richard Bemis In-Reply-To: <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> References: <199148524.289792.1614831820874.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 05:23, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > > Hi there, > > I am working on a 30 minute historical video about the digital group. [Spelling out my thought process] "the digital group" -- so he means Digital Equipment Corporation. Never heard them called a "group" but fine. > when dg was still operational "dg"? Huh? He means DG? Data General? Well which _do_ you mean? Digital meant Digital Equipment Corporation meant DEC. DG meant Data General. Neither was anything "group". I don't know who you mean... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 5 08:41:03 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 08:41:03 -0600 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> After thinking about disk imaging tools like Greaseweasel, I started thinking about tools that would grab and examine the unused portions of disks. It's obviously file-system dependent. At one level we know of "undelete" tools that could piece together recently deleted files and restore them intact by using abandoned bits of block table info. Of course some simple file systems can't even permit that. But very few systems would bother to zero out the released blocks of erased or rewritten files and then blocks are left full of old data. Text source code would be easy to spot. I have vague memories of bits of Amiga OS source code being unintentionally released in unused blocks on OS binary disks that were sent out for mass duplication and distribution. This situation makes me hesitant to release disk images from the past. It's one thing to do it with disks that were mine and to take responsibility for my risk; it's another to release disks once owned and used by others. Do the unused sectors contain their love letters from 1983? Or if I want to release disk images that contain known personal files, how will I image, then remove specific files, then zero unused blocks if I don't want to alter the original media? Obviously in some situations the relevant files can be pulled and redistributed in a new filesystem like a Zip. The situation only gets worse with distributing larger images of entire hard disks. Or with Windows, "quick format" doesn't zero blocks. In another case I encountered while digging through files on an old RSTS backup tape, we had a program that logged usage data to a file and for speed purposes it would preallocate a large file (as opposed to extending the file, which was slower) and then write block records to it. RSTS reused blocks without zeroing. In the unused blocks of an extant file I found an email I'd sent in '82 as well as bits from other users of the same timesharing system. Certainly the archivists out there have considered these questions. How are they solved? Are there notable tools that focus on the files that aren't there? I don't mean modern forensic carving tools... but some concepts would be similar. - John From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 5 08:56:32 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:56:32 -0000 Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff In-Reply-To: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> References: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> Message-ID: <003c01d711cf$bbb91390$332b3ab0$@ntlworld.com> I suppose some manual titles might help to determine what you have. Seems like quite a lot of manuals though! > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Philipp > Hachtmann via cctalk > Sent: 05 March 2021 12:20 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff > > Hi, > I habe some pdp10 related docs which need to go away. > Anybody interested? Or should I dump it (and reuse the white folders foro > pdp8 stuff)? > > https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0r5oqs3qGclUOi > > Kind regards > Philipp > > -- > > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > Klus 16 > 31073 Delligsen > Mobil: 0171/2632239 > > UStdID DE 202668329= From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri Mar 5 09:00:01 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:00:01 -0600 Subject: digital group's Richard Bemis In-Reply-To: References: <199148524.289792.1614831820874.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <953d0456-0de3-cf3a-2541-43213d6a9412@thereinhardts.org> On 3/5/2021 8:30 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 05:23, Brad H via cctalk wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I am working on a 30 minute historical video about the digital group. > [Spelling out my thought process] > > "the digital group" -- so he means Digital Equipment Corporation. > Never heard them called a "group" but fine. > >> when dg was still operational > "dg"? Huh? He means DG? Data General? > > Well which _do_ you mean? > > Digital meant Digital Equipment Corporation meant DEC. > > DG meant Data General. > > Neither was anything "group". > > I don't know who you mean... > > > No, he means "The Digital Group". It was a microcomputer company in the 1975-1979 time frame. http://bytecollector.com/the_digital_group.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Digital_Group -- John H. Reinhardt From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 09:09:38 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:09:38 +0100 Subject: digital group's Richard Bemis In-Reply-To: <953d0456-0de3-cf3a-2541-43213d6a9412@thereinhardts.org> References: <199148524.289792.1614831820874.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> <953d0456-0de3-cf3a-2541-43213d6a9412@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 16:00, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > No, he means "The Digital Group". It was a microcomputer company in the 1975-1979 time frame. > > http://bytecollector.com/the_digital_group.htm > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Digital_Group Thanks for the clarification! I see a few people are happily telling me I am wrong. It's fair, I _was_ wrong. I merely wanted to point out the ambiguity in the original message, though... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri Mar 5 09:13:46 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:13:46 -0600 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <596327a2-855c-6329-dc6a-5855d53672b9@thereinhardts.org> On 3/5/2021 3:03 AM, Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > Not me, but please ping me if you do and would like to part one of the > 11/73. Regards. > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:25 AM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: > >> Is anyone from this list bidding on this. >> If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room >> for it. >> >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> That's a nice collection of DEC kit. The PDP-11/73 pedestal would be nice. -- John H. Reinhardt From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 09:45:34 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 10:45:34 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 4:55 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello, > > Someone sent me these magtape images from Tymshare and said "they fell > off the back of a truck on route 62 in Hudson, MASS." I don't know > their provenance. > > Sorry, I don't have any good hosting. For now they are here: > https://gitlab.com/larsbrinkhoff/tymshare > > The download.sh script will retrieve individual files one by one rather > than cloning the repository; next use cat.sh to get the .tape.bz2 files. > > The tape format is close to not not quite FAILSAFE. With help from Joe > Smith, I made a tool to extract the files: > https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/pdp10-its-disassembler/blob/master/tito.c I'm not having any luck with either back10 or tito. $ sha1sum 169249.tape 1230fb20086990a1ff777fce32591f2900425694 169249.tape (So that's good) $ ./tito -x -f 169249.tape fopen: Is a directory $ bin/back10 -l -f 169249.tape | head 18-Nov-1858 00:00:00 <754> dsk:[1,1][3,700202].ufd 18-Nov-1858 00:00:00 <754> dsk:[1,1][3,700004].ufd 18-Nov-1858 00:00:00 <754> dsk:[1,1][3,700220].ufd $ bin/back10 -x -f 169249.tape ... that gets lots of files with names like 'dsk:[1,4]specdf525].mic' That just seems wrong. From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Mar 5 10:46:49 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 08:46:49 -0800 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 4, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Is anyone from this list bidding on this. > If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe I?m relieved it?s not closer to me, or I?d be sorely tempted to go for that. That?s a seriously nice pile of gear. Especially as they have the right badges on the pedestals. I?m more interested in downsizing than adding more, but that?s exactly the sort of thing that would tempt me. Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Mar 5 10:48:42 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 11:48:42 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: <596327a2-855c-6329-dc6a-5855d53672b9@thereinhardts.org> References: <596327a2-855c-6329-dc6a-5855d53672b9@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: I have a BA23 pedestal 11/83 and it's a really nice form factor for a pdp11. The CPU in that box can take PMI memory but it looks like it's configured with conventional memory based on the location of the processor board. On 3/5/2021 10:13 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 3/5/2021 3:03 AM, Ed C. via cctalk wrote: >> Not me, but please ping me if you do and would like to part one of the >> 11/73. Regards. >> >> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:25 AM Wayne S via cctalk >> >> wrote: >> >>> Is anyone from this list bidding on this. >>> If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have >>> room >>> for it. >>> >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> > > That's a nice collection of DEC kit. The PDP-11/73 pedestal would be > nice. > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Fri Mar 5 10:51:37 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 11:51:37 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> Speaking of badges, I have a BA23 that doesn't have one. It was an 11/73 but that badge is gone, and I am trying to repair an 11/93 to go in there. Does anybody have a spare 11/73 badge for the BA23 that could be used as a model for a printed version that says 11/93?? I don't believe there ever was one for the BA23 chassis!? I have a BA123 micro VAX II badge going spare if anybody needs it, or to swap for an 11/73! Cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-03-05 11:46 a.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 4, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> >> Is anyone from this list bidding on this. >> If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe > I?m relieved it?s not closer to me, or I?d be sorely tempted to go for that. That?s a seriously nice pile of gear. Especially as they have the right badges on the pedestals. I?m more interested in downsizing than adding more, but that?s exactly the sort of thing that would tempt me. > > Zane > > > From doc at vaxen.net Fri Mar 5 10:57:18 2021 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 10:57:18 -0600 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> References: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> Message-ID: <8cb41099-d768-26f7-e5b3-3e4b28a20846@vaxen.net> On 3/5/21 10:51, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of badges, I have a BA23 that doesn't have one. It was an 11/73 > but that badge is gone, and I am trying to repair an 11/93 to go in there. > > Does anybody have a spare 11/73 badge for the BA23 that could be used as > a model for a printed version that says 11/93?? I don't believe there > ever was one for the BA23 chassis!? I have a BA123 micro VAX II badge > going spare if anybody needs it, or to swap for an 11/73! I once had a pair of 11/93s that originally lived in BA23 pedestals, and I'm fairly certain that they did have "MicroPDP 11/93" badges. I'll look and see if I have any photos. Doc From nw.johnson at ieee.org Fri Mar 5 11:06:34 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 12:06:34 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: <8cb41099-d768-26f7-e5b3-3e4b28a20846@vaxen.net> References: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> <8cb41099-d768-26f7-e5b3-3e4b28a20846@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <63fc0e29-e19e-1f84-ce59-7b7d18764bb5@ieee.org> Thanks, Doc, I was under the impression that they always were shipped in the grey 'corporate cabinets'! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-03-05 11:57 a.m., Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > On 3/5/21 10:51, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> Speaking of badges, I have a BA23 that doesn't have one. It was an 11/73 >> but that badge is gone, and I am trying to repair an 11/93 to go in >> there. >> >> Does anybody have a spare 11/73 badge for the BA23 that could be used as >> a model for a printed version that says 11/93?? I don't believe there >> ever was one for the BA23 chassis!? I have a BA123 micro VAX II badge >> going spare if anybody needs it, or to swap for an 11/73! > > ? I once had a pair of 11/93s that originally lived in BA23 pedestals, > and I'm fairly certain that they did have "MicroPDP 11/93" badges. > > ? I'll look and see if I have any photos. > > > ????Doc From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Mar 5 11:12:46 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 12:12:46 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: <8cb41099-d768-26f7-e5b3-3e4b28a20846@vaxen.net> References: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> <8cb41099-d768-26f7-e5b3-3e4b28a20846@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <902d8e53-f52e-acc2-0a3c-83be47254933@e-bbes.com> On 2021-03-05 11:57, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > On 3/5/21 10:51, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> Speaking of badges, I have a BA23 that doesn't have one. It was an 11/73 >> but that badge is gone, and I am trying to repair an 11/93 to go in >> there. >> >> Does anybody have a spare 11/73 badge for the BA23 that could be used as >> a model for a printed version that says 11/93?? I don't believe there >> ever was one for the BA23 chassis!? I have a BA123 micro VAX II badge >> going spare if anybody needs it, or to swap for an 11/73! > > ? I once had a pair of 11/93s that originally lived in BA23 pedestals, > and I'm fairly certain that they did have "MicroPDP 11/93" badges. > > ? I'll look and see if I have any photos. That was pretty easy ;-) https://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-93startpage.html From nw.johnson at ieee.org Fri Mar 5 11:25:22 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 12:25:22 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: <902d8e53-f52e-acc2-0a3c-83be47254933@e-bbes.com> References: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> <8cb41099-d768-26f7-e5b3-3e4b28a20846@vaxen.net> <902d8e53-f52e-acc2-0a3c-83be47254933@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <93d16bf6-9dbf-c06c-1630-1a4021dfa942@ieee.org> Sheesh!? and I have been on that site too! Now I just need a model for the back part and I can send it to my friend who does 3D printing! Thanks Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-03-05 12:12 p.m., emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-03-05 11:57, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/5/21 10:51, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >>> Speaking of badges, I have a BA23 that doesn't have one. It was an 11/73 >>> but that badge is gone, and I am trying to repair an 11/93 to go in >>> there. >>> >>> Does anybody have a spare 11/73 badge for the BA23 that could be used as >>> a model for a printed version that says 11/93?? I don't believe there >>> ever was one for the BA23 chassis!? I have a BA123 micro VAX II badge >>> going spare if anybody needs it, or to swap for an 11/73! >> ? I once had a pair of 11/93s that originally lived in BA23 pedestals, >> and I'm fairly certain that they did have "MicroPDP 11/93" badges. >> >> ? I'll look and see if I have any photos. > That was pretty easy ;-) > > https://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-93startpage.html > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri Mar 5 12:11:31 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 12:11:31 -0600 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> References: <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> Message-ID: <41af3cf8-f3bc-ec91-d110-ce9ddb5f0e76@thereinhardts.org> I need one for an 11/83 (if I can get my CPU board to run). It's on my "to do" list to try to 3-D model one for FMD or resin printing. -- John H. Reinhardt On 3/5/2021 10:51 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of badges, I have a BA23 that doesn't have one. It was an 11/73 > but that badge is gone, and I am trying to repair an 11/93 to go in there. > > Does anybody have a spare 11/73 badge for the BA23 that could be used as > a model for a printed version that says 11/93?? I don't believe there > ever was one for the BA23 chassis!? I have a BA123 micro VAX II badge > going spare if anybody needs it, or to swap for an 11/73! > > Cheers, > > Nigel > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2021-03-05 11:46 a.m., Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> On Mar 4, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Is anyone from this list bidding on this. >>> If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe >> I?m relieved it?s not closer to me, or I?d be sorely tempted to go for that. That?s a seriously nice pile of gear. Especially as they have the right badges on the pedestals. I?m more interested in downsizing than adding more, but that?s exactly the sort of thing that would tempt me. >> >> Zane >> From drb at msu.edu Fri Mar 5 12:11:56 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 13:11:56 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay References: <93d16bf6-9dbf-c06c-1630-1a4021dfa942@ieee.org> <4ae4938e-b08e-1241-1501-5663e6dad4c0@ieee.org> <8cb41099-d768-26f7-e5b3-3e4b28a20846@vaxen.net> <902d8e53-f52e-acc2-0a3c-83be47254933@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20210305181156.73CE5284C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> FWIW, the plate on my 11/93 in BA123 cab just has "DIGITAL". De From lars at nocrew.org Fri Mar 5 12:37:47 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 18:37:47 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: (Tony Aiuto's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2021 10:45:34 -0500") References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Tony Aiuto wrote: > that gets lots of files with names like 'dsk:[1,4]specdf525].mic' > That just seems wrong. Correct, back10 does get some things wrong. It also puts some data at the beginning of files which should be part of the file header. TITO uses the "*FAILSAFE" magic number which fools back10 to think it's FAILSAFE. What problem do you have with my tito tool? Which tape did you try? I haven't tested all tapes, so maybe some of them has surprises. I'm not sure what to do with the file checksum yet. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 12:38:06 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:38:06 -0500 Subject: RSTS processor identification Message-ID: I was just asked some questions about how RSTS identifies your processor type. Since that topic might be of broader interest I figured I'd do some code reading and summarize the logic. In the RSTS initialization code (INIT.SYS), the first step is to identify what your hardware looks like. That is a combination of CPU type, bus type, memory layout, and peripheral configuration lookup. They aren't strictly separated into sequential blocks for those four activities, though naturally you'd want to know the bus type before you start looking for I/O devices on that bus. What I describe here is in RSTS/E V10.1. The general idea of scanning the hardware was introduced in V6B, and I believe is basically the same from that time onward apart from the addition of support for more hardware types. Prior to V6B, the assumption was that you had the hardware you specified during SYSGEN, neither more nor less. Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan flow: 1. If word 0 of the boot block contains a zero, this is a Pro (CT bus); otherwise it isn't. 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. 3. Check the CPU type (MFPT instruction). If it's an F-11, see if 177570 exist. If yes, 11/24 (Unibus); if no, 11/23 (Qbus). If it's a J-11, read the board type register at 177750 and use the bus type bit to distinguish Qbus from Unibus. 4. Check that there is a clock, and if possible determine the power line frequency. 5. Check if there is a CPU cache, and whether there is a cache error address register. 6. If Qbus, check whether there is memory above the 18 bit range. 7. Check that there is at least 96kW of memory (but the message says that 124kW is required -- the actual check value was apparently overlooked and not updated). 8. Check CPU features: EIS (required), FPP, FIS, switch register, display register, MED, two register sets, system ID register, CIS, Data space. 9. If Unibus, check for UMR. 10. Find where memory is. This is done by looking at every 1kW address to see if it answers. So unlike some other operating systems, RSTS will keep looking if it finds a hole in memory. The kernel needs to be at 0 and contiguous, but holes above that are not a problem. 11. Scan the I/O bus for peripherals. This uses the fixed addresses and float rules for Unibus/Qbus (either, the code doesn't care) or the slot use bits and device type register codes for the Pro. 12. Find the vectors, which for almost every device is done by making it interrupt. 13. Identify specific device models if we care, like RL01 vs. RL02, Massbus disk type, DMC/DMR/DMP, etc. 14. Find which of these devices we were booted from. That's about it. Once you get past that point the INIT prompt appears and you can ask what INIT found with "HARDWARE LIST". Incidentally, RSTS doesn't try to identify the exact CPU type you have. Instead, it cares about features or distinctions that affect the code. In a number of cases it does report the type -- if MFPT works then "hardware list" will report that information. But for older CPUs, it doesn't say explicitly, though you can deduce it to some extent. If no type is given but there is cache and more than 128 kW of memory, it's an 11/70. If MED is available, it's an 11/60. If it has FIS, it can only be an 11/40. Etc... paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 5 13:24:30 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 11:24:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Three obvious possibilites for tools to help: 1) A program that makes a single large file out of all unallocated blocks, for later study and breaak-up in an editor. 2) A prograam that makes a separate file out of each unallocated block, for later study and appending in an editor. 3) An INTERACTIVE program that displays a block, with the option of ignoring, or making a file out of it, and then, for each subsequent block provides the option to Ignore, Append it to one of the existing files, or Create a new file from it. Ideally, it should have a clue about likely sequence of blocks, including interleave and side patterns. ALthough a variety of algorithms could ASSIST with whether a given block is LIKELY to be a continuation of the previous block, few could work stand-alone as well as a human operator. Among the possibilities are seeing ASCII (or other) code at the end of one block and the beginning of another ("looking for half a worm in the apple") The same tools are also useful when the DIRectory or other file system information is destroyed, or completely unknown. I had a client who was overjoyed when I gave him a few hundred files, which he proceeded to printout and he and his staff manually sorted and rearranged the printouts by looking at their content. We then looked at the sequences of the file numbers and appended files accordingly. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Fri, 5 Mar 2021, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > After thinking about disk imaging tools like Greaseweasel, > I started thinking about tools that would grab and examine the unused > portions of disks. > > It's obviously file-system dependent. At one level we know of > "undelete" tools that could piece together recently deleted files > and restore them intact by using abandoned bits of block table info. > Of course some simple file systems can't even permit that. > > But very few systems would bother to zero out the released blocks > of erased or rewritten files and then blocks are left full of > old data. Text source code would be easy to spot. > > I have vague memories of bits of Amiga OS source code being unintentionally > released in unused blocks on OS binary disks that were sent out for > mass duplication and distribution. > > This situation makes me hesitant to release disk images from the past. > It's one thing to do it with disks that were mine and to take responsibility > for my risk; it's another to release disks once owned and used by others. > Do the unused sectors contain their love letters from 1983? > > Or if I want to release disk images that contain known personal files, > how will I image, then remove specific files, then zero unused blocks > if I don't want to alter the original media? > > Obviously in some situations the relevant files can be pulled and > redistributed in a new filesystem like a Zip. > > The situation only gets worse with distributing larger images of > entire hard disks. Or with Windows, "quick format" doesn't zero blocks. > > In another case I encountered while digging through files on an old > RSTS backup tape, we had a program that logged usage data to a file > and for speed purposes it would preallocate a large file (as opposed > to extending the file, which was slower) and then write block records > to it. RSTS reused blocks without zeroing. In the unused blocks > of an extant file I found an email I'd sent in '82 as well as bits > from other users of the same timesharing system. > > Certainly the archivists out there have considered these questions. > How are they solved? > > Are there notable tools that focus on the files that aren't there? > > I don't mean modern forensic carving tools... but some concepts would > be similar. > > - John From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 13:43:36 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:43:36 -0500 Subject: RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: very nice! thans!! better than reading all the manuals and trying to figure out the code!! Stay well Paul!! bob smith On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 1:38 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I was just asked some questions about how RSTS identifies your processor type. Since that topic might be of broader interest I figured I'd do some code reading and summarize the logic. > > In the RSTS initialization code (INIT.SYS), the first step is to identify what your hardware looks like. That is a combination of CPU type, bus type, memory layout, and peripheral configuration lookup. They aren't strictly separated into sequential blocks for those four activities, though naturally you'd want to know the bus type before you start looking for I/O devices on that bus. > > What I describe here is in RSTS/E V10.1. The general idea of scanning the hardware was introduced in V6B, and I believe is basically the same from that time onward apart from the addition of support for more hardware types. Prior to V6B, the assumption was that you had the hardware you specified during SYSGEN, neither more nor less. > > Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan flow: > > 1. If word 0 of the boot block contains a zero, this is a Pro (CT bus); otherwise it isn't. > 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. > 3. Check the CPU type (MFPT instruction). If it's an F-11, see if 177570 exist. If yes, 11/24 (Unibus); if no, 11/23 (Qbus). If it's a J-11, read the board type register at 177750 and use the bus type bit to distinguish Qbus from Unibus. > 4. Check that there is a clock, and if possible determine the power line frequency. > 5. Check if there is a CPU cache, and whether there is a cache error address register. > 6. If Qbus, check whether there is memory above the 18 bit range. > 7. Check that there is at least 96kW of memory (but the message says that 124kW is required -- the actual check value was apparently overlooked and not updated). > 8. Check CPU features: EIS (required), FPP, FIS, switch register, display register, MED, two register sets, system ID register, CIS, Data space. > 9. If Unibus, check for UMR. > 10. Find where memory is. This is done by looking at every 1kW address to see if it answers. So unlike some other operating systems, RSTS will keep looking if it finds a hole in memory. The kernel needs to be at 0 and contiguous, but holes above that are not a problem. > 11. Scan the I/O bus for peripherals. This uses the fixed addresses and float rules for Unibus/Qbus (either, the code doesn't care) or the slot use bits and device type register codes for the Pro. > 12. Find the vectors, which for almost every device is done by making it interrupt. > 13. Identify specific device models if we care, like RL01 vs. RL02, Massbus disk type, DMC/DMR/DMP, etc. > 14. Find which of these devices we were booted from. > > That's about it. Once you get past that point the INIT prompt appears and you can ask what INIT found with "HARDWARE LIST". > > Incidentally, RSTS doesn't try to identify the exact CPU type you have. Instead, it cares about features or distinctions that affect the code. In a number of cases it does report the type -- if MFPT works then "hardware list" will report that information. But for older CPUs, it doesn't say explicitly, though you can deduce it to some extent. If no type is given but there is cache and more than 128 kW of memory, it's an 11/70. If MED is available, it's an 11/60. If it has FIS, it can only be an 11/40. Etc... > > paul > > From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Fri Mar 5 09:35:24 2021 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 15:35:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 8/a for sale UK (Devon) Message-ID: I'm moving soon and need to down-size a little, so selling off my PDP-8/a. It has 16KW core and is in full working order. It has the serial IO board which I think was standard in the 8/a anyway. It's a 3-card system plus the 2 x 8KW core boards. Also included is a Vincent Slyngstad memory/rtc expansion board - not built up, so full kit form that I've not been able to assemble yet. ?1000 ono. https://unicorn.drogon.net/IMG_20210305_150415.jpg boards: https://unicorn.drogon.net/IMG_20180126_181135.jpg https://unicorn.drogon.net/IMG_20180126_181115.jpg https://unicorn.drogon.net/IMG_20180126_171659.jpg I'm based in Devon. Buyer collect (if you want to see it working) else I can make a short video and may be able to take it a little way up or down the A38/M5. Thanks, Gordon From boris at summitclinic.com Fri Mar 5 15:11:45 2021 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 13:11:45 -0800 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210305211202.A9C4E27376@mx1.ezwind.net> Recovering data from disks was a lot easier 30 years ago when most filesystems had contiguous files and it was just a matter of finding file boundaries. Was very glad of this when accidentally wiped first 200 blocks of an RT-11 RK05 and just had to write a FORTRAN program to copy blocks of data and assign the files names. Also wrote a program to do a disk scan to look for specific file type and like to show people what jpeg files they've left behind on a disk they've "wiped". Finding images very easy as can display a list of many image icons on screen and quickly scroll through them if one is looking far a particular image. Of course, the longer a hard disk has been used and not defragmented, the lower the recovery percentage of files. Got paid for file recovery a few times but mainly use it to show people what really happens when they "wipe" a disk. Have convinced a lot of people that low level format on a disk they're giving away a good idea. >After thinking about disk imaging tools like Greaseweasel, >I started thinking about tools that would grab and examine the unused >portions of disks. > >It's obviously file-system dependent. At one level we know of >"undelete" tools that could piece together recently deleted files >and restore them intact by using abandoned bits of block table info. >Of course some simple file systems can't even permit that. > >But very few systems would bother to zero out the released blocks >of erased or rewritten files and then blocks are left full of >old data. Text source code would be easy to spot. > >I have vague memories of bits of Amiga OS source code being unintentionally >released in unused blocks on OS binary disks that were sent out for >mass duplication and distribution. > >This situation makes me hesitant to release disk images from the past. >It's one thing to do it with disks that were mine and to take responsibility >for my risk; it's another to release disks once owned and used by others. >Do the unused sectors contain their love letters from 1983? > >Or if I want to release disk images that contain known personal files, >how will I image, then remove specific files, then zero unused blocks >if I don't want to alter the original media? > >Obviously in some situations the relevant files can be pulled and >redistributed in a new filesystem like a Zip. > >The situation only gets worse with distributing larger images of >entire hard disks. Or with Windows, "quick format" doesn't zero blocks. > >In another case I encountered while digging through files on an old >RSTS backup tape, we had a program that logged usage data to a file >and for speed purposes it would preallocate a large file (as opposed >to extending the file, which was slower) and then write block records >to it. RSTS reused blocks without zeroing. In the unused blocks >of an extant file I found an email I'd sent in '82 as well as bits >from other users of the same timesharing system. > >Certainly the archivists out there have considered these questions. >How are they solved? > >Are there notable tools that focus on the files that aren't there? > >I don't mean modern forensic carving tools... but some concepts would >be similar. > >- John From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 15:45:50 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:45:50 -0500 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210305211202.A9C4E27376@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> <20210305211202.A9C4E27376@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <22C60226-06FD-4027-B664-CB9E48B7ED22@comcast.net> > On Mar 5, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > > Recovering data from disks was a lot easier 30 years ago when most filesystems had contiguous files and it was just a matter of finding file boundaries. Was very glad of this when accidentally wiped first 200 blocks of an RT-11 RK05 and just had to write a FORTRAN program to copy blocks of data and assign the files names. Yes, RT11 has contiguous files. That actually made it rather unusual. For example, while RSTS supports contiguous files that isn't the default and because of disk fragmentation wasn't commonly used. I was going to describe how you could do recovery on RSTS file systems, when I realized that it doesn't actually work at all. The file system is designed to allow you to piece it back together if some entries are corrupted. As an extreme example, in the new (RDS 1) file structure, you could wipe out the MFD -- the root directory of the file system -- and almost certainly put it back together by scanning the disk for the GFDs -- the second level directories, which are tagged with a magic number that allows them to be found easily. On the other hand, if you delete a file there is nothing left in the file system metadata to tell you about its previous existence. While the 8-word blocks that make up directory entries only need two leading 0 words to be considered "free", it turns out the file system code actually zeroes all the entries in their entirety when deleting a file. So you can try to reconstruct a file from free space, if you're lucky enough to be able to find its pieces and connect them in the right order, but there isn't anything left of the metadata (name, time stamps, etc.) Yes, that could have been left around, and I'm actually somewhat puzzled about why it was done that way; it looks like early versions (V4A at least) just zero the minimal 2 words which would leave you half a file name and other stuff, not to mention 6/7th of the file data pointers. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 16:02:10 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:02:10 -0800 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <22C60226-06FD-4027-B664-CB9E48B7ED22@comcast.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> <20210305211202.A9C4E27376@mx1.ezwind.net> <22C60226-06FD-4027-B664-CB9E48B7ED22@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 1:46 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, RT11 has contiguous files. That actually made it rather unusual. For example, while RSTS supports contiguous files that isn't the default and because of disk fragmentation wasn't commonly used. On VMS you can copy files with the /CONTIGUOUS switch to specify that the output file must occupy contiguous physical disk blocks. Of course the default is /NOCONTIGUOUS. I vaguely remember using the /CONTIGUOUS switch to copy MDM (MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor) diagnostic files from one bootable MDM disk to another. I forget if that is necessary for proper operation of MDM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 16:08:23 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 17:08:23 -0500 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> <20210305211202.A9C4E27376@mx1.ezwind.net> <22C60226-06FD-4027-B664-CB9E48B7ED22@comcast.net> Message-ID: <90D2EA9A-AF71-480A-AD0D-CE85831EBF59@comcast.net> > On Mar 5, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 1:46 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Yes, RT11 has contiguous files. That actually made it rather unusual. For example, while RSTS supports contiguous files that isn't the default and because of disk fragmentation wasn't commonly used. > > On VMS you can copy files with the /CONTIGUOUS switch to specify that > the output file must occupy contiguous physical disk blocks. Of course > the default is /NOCONTIGUOUS. > > I vaguely remember using the /CONTIGUOUS switch to copy MDM (MicroVAX > Diagnostic Monitor) diagnostic files from one bootable MDM disk to > another. I forget if that is necessary for proper operation of MDM. I like to make RSTS floppy files contiguous to avoid spending so much time going back to the directory to find the next set of file data pointers. In RSTS, a few files have to be contiguous: run time systems and shared libraries, swap files, the system error message file, and the DECtape directory buffer file. That's about it. In early versions, the monitor had to be contiguous as well, but as of V6B that is no longer true (not for INIT either). Strangely enough, in the RSTS file system there are always pointers to each file cluster, even if the file is contiguous. It didn't dawn on me until a few weeks ago that I should have changed that -- I could have done that back around 1982 or so. Oops. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Mar 5 16:18:48 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:18:48 -0800 Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff In-Reply-To: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> References: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> Message-ID: <54D96EA0-1619-4421-9A36-576210D663EB@avanthar.com> On Mar 5, 2021, at 4:19 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > I habe some pdp10 related docs which need to go away. > Anybody interested? Or should I dump it (and reuse the white folders foro pdp8 stuff)? > > https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0r5oqs3qGclUOi > > Kind regards > Philipp Hopefully someone in close by in Europe responds, I?m not sure I want to know what it would cost to ship this to the US. I have to agree with Rob, it would help to know what you have. Do you at least know what isn?t already on Bitsavers? I really hate to see the loss of any PDP-10 documentation at this point. Zane From bqt at softjar.se Fri Mar 5 17:02:45 2021 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 00:02:45 +0100 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> Nice writeup, Paul. And very interesting. Just in case anyone wonder about RSX, here is how it's done in M+: 1. Test if SYSID register exists If SYSID register exists: 2. Test if high bit of KISDR0 can be set and read back If high bit can be set and read back => 11/74 CPU If high bit cannot be set and read back => 11/70 CPU 3. Try MFPT instruction If that succeeds: If R0 == 1 => 11/44 CPU If R0 == 3: 4. Try to read maintenance register If register exists => XT CPU (Pro) 5. If register does not exist, try writing to SWR If fail to write => 11/23 CPU If succeed to write => 11/24 CPU If R0 is something else, it is a J11 CPU, see more below. 6. Execute OP-codes 076600,000400 If that succeeds => 11/60 CPU If that fails: 7. Execute OP-code 106700 If that succeeds => 11/34 CPU If that fails: 8. Try to read PIRQ register If that succeeds => 11/45 CPU If that fails: CPU is one of: 11-/04/05/10/15/20/40 M+ will just assume 11/40, since that is the only possible model that could possibly be running this code. => 11/40 CPU For J11 processors, after point 3, we get into a J11 probing. 9. If R0 <> 5, it is not a J11 processor after all. => Unknown CPU 10. Read maintenance register If fail => Unknown CPU 11. Check bits 4-7 of maintenance register: == 4: => 11/53 CPU == 3: => 11/73 CPU (not KDJ11) == 1: Write KISDR7+1 to KISDR7+1 Check if W bit in KISDR7 was set. If set => M11 CPU Try opcodes 076660,156227 If succeed => N11 CPU == 2: => 11/83 or 11/84 CPU (see step 12) == 5: => 11/93 or 11/94 CPU (see step 12) 12. Check if Unibus system based on maintenance register If Unibus system indicated, try read Unibus map register If Unibus map exist: => Unibus system. CPU 11/84 or 11/94 (see 11) 13. Qbus system. CPU 11/83 or 11/93 (see 11) Note: M11 processor is called 11/95 Note: N11 processor is called 11/97 That concludes how RSX-11M-PLUS decides what CPU you have at boot. There are then probes for TOY, clock and memory, but that's a different story. If anyone wants more information, the code is in LB:[12,10]SAVSIZ.MAC, routine $STCPU. But I'm happy to also answer any questions. Also note that while doing these tests/probes, RSX is catching the illegal instruction trap, and just resumes execution but sets carry. So for some of these tests, the carry is cleared, and the instruction is attempted, and then there is a check if carry got set, as a way of seeing if it worked or not. The specific opcodes are for maintenance instructions that either are harmless on other models, or trap. And which do not affect the carry if executed on the assumed processor tested for. Non-existant memory is also trapped, and execution resumed with carry set. Same kind of idea... Johnny On 2021-03-05 19:38, Paul Koning wrote: > I was just asked some questions about how RSTS identifies your processor type. Since that topic might be of broader interest I figured I'd do some code reading and summarize the logic. > > In the RSTS initialization code (INIT.SYS), the first step is to identify what your hardware looks like. That is a combination of CPU type, bus type, memory layout, and peripheral configuration lookup. They aren't strictly separated into sequential blocks for those four activities, though naturally you'd want to know the bus type before you start looking for I/O devices on that bus. > > What I describe here is in RSTS/E V10.1. The general idea of scanning the hardware was introduced in V6B, and I believe is basically the same from that time onward apart from the addition of support for more hardware types. Prior to V6B, the assumption was that you had the hardware you specified during SYSGEN, neither more nor less. > > Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan flow: > > 1. If word 0 of the boot block contains a zero, this is a Pro (CT bus); otherwise it isn't. > 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. > 3. Check the CPU type (MFPT instruction). If it's an F-11, see if 177570 exist. If yes, 11/24 (Unibus); if no, 11/23 (Qbus). If it's a J-11, read the board type register at 177750 and use the bus type bit to distinguish Qbus from Unibus. > 4. Check that there is a clock, and if possible determine the power line frequency. > 5. Check if there is a CPU cache, and whether there is a cache error address register. > 6. If Qbus, check whether there is memory above the 18 bit range. > 7. Check that there is at least 96kW of memory (but the message says that 124kW is required -- the actual check value was apparently overlooked and not updated). > 8. Check CPU features: EIS (required), FPP, FIS, switch register, display register, MED, two register sets, system ID register, CIS, Data space. > 9. If Unibus, check for UMR. > 10. Find where memory is. This is done by looking at every 1kW address to see if it answers. So unlike some other operating systems, RSTS will keep looking if it finds a hole in memory. The kernel needs to be at 0 and contiguous, but holes above that are not a problem. > 11. Scan the I/O bus for peripherals. This uses the fixed addresses and float rules for Unibus/Qbus (either, the code doesn't care) or the slot use bits and device type register codes for the Pro. > 12. Find the vectors, which for almost every device is done by making it interrupt. > 13. Identify specific device models if we care, like RL01 vs. RL02, Massbus disk type, DMC/DMR/DMP, etc. > 14. Find which of these devices we were booted from. > > That's about it. Once you get past that point the INIT prompt appears and you can ask what INIT found with "HARDWARE LIST". > > Incidentally, RSTS doesn't try to identify the exact CPU type you have. Instead, it cares about features or distinctions that affect the code. In a number of cases it does report the type -- if MFPT works then "hardware list" will report that information. But for older CPUs, it doesn't say explicitly, though you can deduce it to some extent. If no type is given but there is cache and more than 128 kW of memory, it's an 11/70. If MED is available, it's an 11/60. If it has FIS, it can only be an 11/40. Etc... > > paul > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > View/Reply Online (#551): https://groups.io/g/simh/message/551 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/81110197/4814011 > Group Owner: simh+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/simh/leave/8625569/4814011/104597204/xyzzy [bqt at softjar.se] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Mar 5 17:11:08 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 18:11:08 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> Message-ID: How can you run m+ on an 11/23 or a 40? I thought it needed I/d space to run thus I can see it on a 45. On March 5, 2021 6:02:45 PM EST, Johnny Billquist via cctalk wrote: >Nice writeup, Paul. And very interesting. > >Just in case anyone wonder about RSX, here is how it's done in M+: > >1. Test if SYSID register exists > If SYSID register exists: > 2. Test if high bit of KISDR0 can be set and read back > If high bit can be set and read back => 11/74 CPU > If high bit cannot be set and read back => 11/70 CPU >3. Try MFPT instruction > If that succeeds: > If R0 == 1 => 11/44 CPU > If R0 == 3: > 4. Try to read maintenance register > If register exists => XT CPU (Pro) > 5. If register does not exist, try writing to SWR > If fail to write => 11/23 CPU > If succeed to write => 11/24 CPU > If R0 is something else, it is a J11 CPU, see more below. >6. Execute OP-codes 076600,000400 > If that succeeds => 11/60 CPU > If that fails: > 7. Execute OP-code 106700 > If that succeeds => 11/34 CPU > If that fails: > 8. Try to read PIRQ register > If that succeeds => 11/45 CPU > If that fails: > CPU is one of: 11-/04/05/10/15/20/40 > M+ will just assume 11/40, since that is the only possible > model that could possibly be running this code. => 11/40 CPU > > >For J11 processors, after point 3, we get into a J11 probing. >9. If R0 <> 5, it is not a J11 processor after all. => Unknown CPU >10. Read maintenance register > If fail => Unknown CPU >11. Check bits 4-7 of maintenance register: > == 4: => 11/53 CPU > == 3: => 11/73 CPU (not KDJ11) > == 1: Write KISDR7+1 to KISDR7+1 > Check if W bit in KISDR7 was set. > If set => M11 CPU > Try opcodes 076660,156227 > If succeed => N11 CPU > == 2: => 11/83 or 11/84 CPU (see step 12) > == 5: => 11/93 or 11/94 CPU (see step 12) >12. Check if Unibus system based on maintenance register > If Unibus system indicated, try read Unibus map register > If Unibus map exist: => Unibus system. CPU 11/84 or 11/94 (see 11) >13. Qbus system. CPU 11/83 or 11/93 (see 11) > > >Note: M11 processor is called 11/95 >Note: N11 processor is called 11/97 > >That concludes how RSX-11M-PLUS decides what CPU you have at boot. > >There are then probes for TOY, clock and memory, but that's a different > >story. > >If anyone wants more information, the code is in LB:[12,10]SAVSIZ.MAC, >routine $STCPU. But I'm happy to also answer any questions. > >Also note that while doing these tests/probes, RSX is catching the >illegal instruction trap, and just resumes execution but sets carry. So > >for some of these tests, the carry is cleared, and the instruction is >attempted, and then there is a check if carry got set, as a way of >seeing if it worked or not. The specific opcodes are for maintenance >instructions that either are harmless on other models, or trap. And >which do not affect the carry if executed on the assumed processor >tested for. > >Non-existant memory is also trapped, and execution resumed with carry >set. Same kind of idea... > > Johnny > >On 2021-03-05 19:38, Paul Koning wrote: >> I was just asked some questions about how RSTS identifies your >processor type. Since that topic might be of broader interest I >figured I'd do some code reading and summarize the logic. >> >> In the RSTS initialization code (INIT.SYS), the first step is to >identify what your hardware looks like. That is a combination of CPU >type, bus type, memory layout, and peripheral configuration lookup. >They aren't strictly separated into sequential blocks for those four >activities, though naturally you'd want to know the bus type before you >start looking for I/O devices on that bus. >> >> What I describe here is in RSTS/E V10.1. The general idea of >scanning the hardware was introduced in V6B, and I believe is basically >the same from that time onward apart from the addition of support for >more hardware types. Prior to V6B, the assumption was that you had the >hardware you specified during SYSGEN, neither more nor less. >> >> Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan flow: >> >> 1. If word 0 of the boot block contains a zero, this is a Pro (CT >bus); otherwise it isn't. >> 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. >> 3. Check the CPU type (MFPT instruction). If it's an F-11, see if >177570 exist. If yes, 11/24 (Unibus); if no, 11/23 (Qbus). If it's a >J-11, read the board type register at 177750 and use the bus type bit >to distinguish Qbus from Unibus. >> 4. Check that there is a clock, and if possible determine the power >line frequency. >> 5. Check if there is a CPU cache, and whether there is a cache error >address register. >> 6. If Qbus, check whether there is memory above the 18 bit range. >> 7. Check that there is at least 96kW of memory (but the message says >that 124kW is required -- the actual check value was apparently >overlooked and not updated). >> 8. Check CPU features: EIS (required), FPP, FIS, switch register, >display register, MED, two register sets, system ID register, CIS, Data >space. >> 9. If Unibus, check for UMR. >> 10. Find where memory is. This is done by looking at every 1kW >address to see if it answers. So unlike some other operating systems, >RSTS will keep looking if it finds a hole in memory. The kernel needs >to be at 0 and contiguous, but holes above that are not a problem. >> 11. Scan the I/O bus for peripherals. This uses the fixed addresses >and float rules for Unibus/Qbus (either, the code doesn't care) or the >slot use bits and device type register codes for the Pro. >> 12. Find the vectors, which for almost every device is done by making >it interrupt. >> 13. Identify specific device models if we care, like RL01 vs. RL02, >Massbus disk type, DMC/DMR/DMP, etc. >> 14. Find which of these devices we were booted from. >> >> That's about it. Once you get past that point the INIT prompt >appears and you can ask what INIT found with "HARDWARE LIST". >> >> Incidentally, RSTS doesn't try to identify the exact CPU type you >have. Instead, it cares about features or distinctions that affect the >code. In a number of cases it does report the type -- if MFPT works >then "hardware list" will report that information. But for older CPUs, >it doesn't say explicitly, though you can deduce it to some extent. If >no type is given but there is cache and more than 128 kW of memory, >it's an 11/70. If MED is available, it's an 11/60. If it has FIS, it >can only be an 11/40. Etc... >> >> paul >> >> >> >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. >> View/Reply Online (#551): https://groups.io/g/simh/message/551 >> Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/81110197/4814011 >> Group Owner: simh+owner at groups.io >> Unsubscribe: >https://groups.io/g/simh/leave/8625569/4814011/104597204/xyzzy >[bqt at softjar.se] >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> >> > >-- >Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip >email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From bqt at softjar.se Fri Mar 5 17:55:22 2021 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 00:55:22 +0100 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> Message-ID: <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> The 11/23 is officially supported, and does indeed lack I/D space (also true of the 11/24). Which implies that split I/D space is not actually a requirement for RSX-11M-PLUS. That would also be clear by reading the SPD. However, officially, there is a requirement for 22-bit addressing. Which means that both 11/40 and 11/60 is not supported. However, it is possible to run RSX-11M-PLUS on those machines. But you need to enable unsupported builds in order to do a SYSGEN for those machines. Also, this means that actually the 11/45 is not officially supported, as opposed to the 11/24 which is... Johnny On 2021-03-06 00:11, Chris Zach wrote: > How can you run m+ on an 11/23 or a 40? I thought it needed I/d space to > run thus I can see it on a 45. > > On March 5, 2021 6:02:45 PM EST, Johnny Billquist via cctalk > wrote: > > Nice writeup, Paul. And very interesting. > > Just in case anyone wonder about RSX, here is how it's done in M+: > > 1. Test if SYSID register exists > If SYSID register exists: > 2. Test if high bit of KISDR0 can be set and read back > If high bit can be set and read back => 11/74 CPU > If high bit cannot be set and read back => 11/70 CPU > 3. Try MFPT instruction > If that succeeds: > If R0 == 1 => 11/44 CPU > If R0 == 3: > 4. Try to read maintenance register > If register exists => XT CPU (Pro) > 5. If register does not exist, try writing to SWR > If fail to write => 11/23 CPU > If succeed to write => 11/24 CPU > If R0 is something else, it is a J11 CPU, see more below. > 6. Execute OP-codes 076600,000400 > If that succeeds => 11/60 CPU > If that fails: > 7. Execute OP-code 106700 > If that succeeds => 11/34 CPU > If that fails: > 8. Try to read PIRQ register > If that succeeds => 11/45 CPU > If that fails: > CPU is one of: 11-/04/05/10/15/20/40 > M+ will just assume 11/40, since that is the only possible > model that could possibly be running this code. => 11/40 CPU > > > For J11 processors, after point 3, we get into a J11 probing. > 9. If R0 <> 5, it is not a J11 processor after all. => Unknown CPU > 10. Read maintenance register > If fail => Unknown CPU > 11. Check bits 4-7 of maintenance register: > == 4: => 11/53 CPU > == 3: => 11/73 CPU (not KDJ11) > == 1: Write KISDR7+1 to KISDR7+1 > Check if W bit in KISDR7 was set. > If set => M11 CPU > Try opcodes 076660,156227 > If succeed => N11 CPU > == 2: => 11/83 or 11/84 CPU (see step 12) > == 5: => 11/93 or 11/94 CPU (see step 12) > 12. Check if Unibus system based on maintenance register > If Unibus system indicated, try read Unibus map register > If Unibus map exist: => Unibus system. CPU 11/84 or 11/94 (see 11) > 13. Qbus system. CPU 11/83 or 11/93 (see 11) > > > Note: M11 processor is called 11/95 > Note: N11 processor is called 11/97 > > That concludes how RSX-11M-PLUS decides what CPU you have at boot. > > There are then probes for TOY, clock and memory, but that's a different > story. > > If anyone wants more information, the code is in LB:[12,10]SAVSIZ.MAC, > routine $STCPU. But I'm happy to also answer any questions. > > Also note that while doing these tests/probes, RSX is catching the > illegal instruction trap, and just resumes execution but sets carry. So > for some of these tests, the carry is cleared, and the instruction is > attempted, and then there is a check if carry got set, as a way of > seeing if it worked or not. The specific opcodes are for maintenance > instructions that either are harmless on other models, or trap. And > which do not affect the carry if executed on the assumed processor > tested for. > > Non-existant memory is also trapped, and execution resumed with carry > set. Same kind of idea... > > Johnny > > On 2021-03-05 19:38, Paul Koning wrote: > > I was just asked some questions about how RSTS identifies your > processor type. Since that topic might be of broader interest I > figured I'd do some code reading and summarize the logic. > > In the RSTS initialization code (INIT.SYS), the first step is to > identify what your hardware looks like. That is a combination of > CPU type, bus type, memory layout, and peripheral configuration > lookup. They aren't strictly separated into sequential blocks > for those four activities, though naturally you'd want to know > the bus type before you start looking for I/O devices on that bus. > > What I describe here is in RSTS/E V10.1. The general idea of > scanning the hardware was introduced in V6B, and I believe is > basically the same from that time onward apart from the addition > of support for more hardware types. Prior to V6B, the assumption > was that you had the hardware you specified during SYSGEN, > neither more nor less. > > Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan flow: > > 1. If word 0 of the boot block contains a zero, this is a Pro > (CT bus); otherwise it isn't. > 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. > 3. Check the CPU type (MFPT instruction). If it's an F-11, see > if 177570 exist. If yes, 11/24 (Unibus); if no, 11/23 (Qbus). If > it's a J-11, read the board type register at 177750 and use the > bus type bit to distinguish Qbus from Unibus. > 4. Check that there is a clock, and if possible determine the > power line frequency. > 5. Check if there is a CPU cache, and whether there is a cache > error address register. > 6. If Qbus, check whether there is memory above the 18 bit range. > 7. Check that there is at least 96kW of memory (but the message > says that 124kW is required -- the actual check value was > apparently overlooked and not updated). > 8. Check CPU features: EIS (required), FPP, FIS, switch > register, display register, MED, two register sets, system ID > register, CIS, Data space. > 9. If Unibus, check for UMR. > 10. Find where memory is. This is done by looking at every 1kW > address to see if it answers. So unlike some other operating > systems, RSTS will keep looking if it finds a hole in memory. > The kernel needs to be at 0 and contiguous, but holes above that > are not a problem. > 11. Scan the I/O bus for peripherals. This uses the fixed > addresses and float rules for Unibus/Qbus (either, the code > doesn't care) or the slot use bits and device type register > codes for the Pro. > 12. Find the vectors, which for almost every device is done by > making it interrupt. > 13. Identify specific device models if we care, like RL01 vs. > RL02, Massbus disk type, DMC/DMR/DMP, etc. > 14. Find which of these devices we were booted from. > > That's about it. Once you get past that point the INIT prompt > appears and you can ask what INIT found with "HARDWARE LIST". > > Incidentally, RSTS doesn't try to identify the exact CPU type > you have. Instead, it cares about features or distinctions that > affect the code. In a number of cases it does report the type -- > if MFPT works then "hardware list" will report that information. > But for older CPUs, it doesn't say explicitly, though you can > deduce it to some extent. If no type is given but there is cache > and more than 128 kW of memory, it's an 11/70. If MED is > available, it's an 11/60. If it has FIS, it can only be an > 11/40. Etc... > > paul > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > View/Reply Online (#551): https://groups.io/g/simh/message/551 > > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/81110197/4814011 > > Group Owner: simh+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: > https://groups.io/g/simh/leave/8625569/4814011/104597204/xyzzy > > [bqt at softjar.se] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Mar 5 18:14:00 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 19:14:00 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> Message-ID: Ah ok. For some reason I always thought the 23 could only run M, which is still a fine platform. I'd be amazed if they got all the extra cool features like disk caching working without I/D. But when I think about it, it makes sense: P/OS is basically M+ all the way and runs on the Pro/350. But P/OS 2.0 will not allow you to run split I/D applications on a 380 although you can compile them. Maybe this weekend I'll hack that SSD floppy thingie and load up the P/OS 3.2 disks to see how that works. C On 3/5/2021 6:55 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The 11/23 is officially supported, and does indeed lack I/D space > (also true of the 11/24). Which implies that split I/D space is not > actually a requirement for RSX-11M-PLUS. That would also be clear by > reading the SPD. > > However, officially, there is a requirement for 22-bit addressing. > Which means that both 11/40 and 11/60 is not supported. However, it is > possible to run RSX-11M-PLUS on those machines. But you need to enable > unsupported builds in order to do a SYSGEN for those machines. > > Also, this means that actually the 11/45 is not officially supported, > as opposed to the 11/24 which is... > > ? Johnny > > On 2021-03-06 00:11, Chris Zach wrote: >> How can you run m+ on an 11/23 or a 40? I thought it needed I/d space >> to run thus I can see it on a 45. >> >> On March 5, 2021 6:02:45 PM EST, Johnny Billquist via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> ??? Nice writeup, Paul. And very interesting. >> >> ??? Just in case anyone wonder about RSX, here is how it's done in M+: >> >> ??? 1. Test if SYSID register exists >> ???????? If SYSID register exists: >> ???????? 2. Test if high bit of KISDR0 can be set and read back >> ??????????? If high bit can be set and read back => 11/74 CPU >> ??????????? If high bit cannot be set and read back => 11/70 CPU >> ??? 3. Try MFPT instruction >> ???????? If that succeeds: >> ?????????? If R0 == 1 => 11/44 CPU >> ?????????? If R0 == 3: >> ???????????? 4. Try to read maintenance register >> ??????????????? If register exists => XT CPU (Pro) >> ??????????????? 5. If register does not exist, try writing to SWR >> ?????????????????? If fail to write => 11/23 CPU >> ?????????????????? If succeed to write => 11/24 CPU >> ?????????? If R0 is something else, it is a J11 CPU, see more below. >> ??? 6. Execute OP-codes 076600,000400 >> ???????? If that succeeds => 11/60 CPU >> ???????? If that fails: >> ???????? 7. Execute OP-code 106700 >> ??????????? If that succeeds => 11/34 CPU >> ??????????? If that fails: >> ??????????? 8. Try to read PIRQ register >> ?????????????? If that succeeds => 11/45 CPU >> ?????????????? If that fails: >> ???????????????? CPU is one of: 11-/04/05/10/15/20/40 >> ???????????????? M+ will just assume 11/40, since that is the only >> possible >> ???????????????? model that could possibly be running this code. => >> 11/40 CPU >> >> >> ??? For J11 processors, after point 3, we get into a J11 probing. >> ??? 9. If R0 <> 5, it is not a J11 processor after all. => Unknown CPU >> ??? 10. Read maintenance register >> ????????? If fail => Unknown CPU >> ??? 11. Check bits 4-7 of maintenance register: >> ????????? == 4: => 11/53 CPU >> ????????? == 3: => 11/73 CPU (not KDJ11) >> ????????? == 1: Write KISDR7+1 to KISDR7+1 >> ????????????????? Check if W bit in KISDR7 was set. >> ??????????????????? If set => M11 CPU >> ????????????????? Try opcodes 076660,156227 >> ??????????????????? If succeed => N11 CPU >> ????????? == 2: => 11/83 or 11/84 CPU (see step 12) >> ????????? == 5: => 11/93 or 11/94 CPU (see step 12) >> ??? 12. Check if Unibus system based on maintenance register >> ????????? If Unibus system indicated, try read Unibus map register >> ??????????? If Unibus map exist: => Unibus system. CPU 11/84 or 11/94 >> (see 11) >> ??? 13. Qbus system. CPU 11/83 or 11/93 (see 11) >> >> >> ??? Note: M11 processor is called 11/95 >> ??? Note: N11 processor is called 11/97 >> >> ??? That concludes how RSX-11M-PLUS decides what CPU you have at boot. >> >> ??? There are then probes for TOY, clock and memory, but that's a >> different >> ??? story. >> >> ??? If anyone wants more information, the code is in >> LB:[12,10]SAVSIZ.MAC, >> ??? routine $STCPU. But I'm happy to also answer any questions. >> >> ??? Also note that while doing these tests/probes, RSX is catching the >> ??? illegal instruction trap, and just resumes execution but sets >> carry. So >> ??? for some of these tests, the carry is cleared, and the >> instruction is >> ??? attempted, and then there is a check if carry got set, as a way of >> ??? seeing if it worked or not. The specific opcodes are for maintenance >> ??? instructions that either are harmless on other models, or trap. And >> ??? which do not affect the carry if executed on the assumed processor >> ??? tested for. >> >> ??? Non-existant memory is also trapped, and execution resumed with >> carry >> ??? set. Same kind of idea... >> >> ??????? Johnny >> >> ??? On 2021-03-05 19:38, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ??????? I was just asked some questions about how RSTS identifies your >> ??????? processor type. Since that topic might be of broader interest I >> ??????? figured I'd do some code reading and summarize the logic. >> >> ??????? In the RSTS initialization code (INIT.SYS), the first step is to >> ??????? identify what your hardware looks like. That is a combination of >> ??????? CPU type, bus type, memory layout, and peripheral configuration >> ??????? lookup. They aren't strictly separated into sequential blocks >> ??????? for those four activities, though naturally you'd want to know >> ??????? the bus type before you start looking for I/O devices on that >> bus. >> >> ??????? What I describe here is in RSTS/E V10.1. The general idea of >> ??????? scanning the hardware was introduced in V6B, and I believe is >> ??????? basically the same from that time onward apart from the addition >> ??????? of support for more hardware types. Prior to V6B, the assumption >> ??????? was that you had the hardware you specified during SYSGEN, >> ??????? neither more nor less. >> >> ??????? Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan >> flow: >> >> ??????? 1. If word 0 of the boot block contains a zero, this is a Pro >> ??????? (CT bus); otherwise it isn't. >> ??????? 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. >> ??????? 3. Check the CPU type (MFPT instruction). If it's an F-11, see >> ??????? if 177570 exist. If yes, 11/24 (Unibus); if no, 11/23 (Qbus). If >> ??????? it's a J-11, read the board type register at 177750 and use the >> ??????? bus type bit to distinguish Qbus from Unibus. >> ??????? 4. Check that there is a clock, and if possible determine the >> ??????? power line frequency. >> ??????? 5. Check if there is a CPU cache, and whether there is a cache >> ??????? error address register. >> ??????? 6. If Qbus, check whether there is memory above the 18 bit >> range. >> ??????? 7. Check that there is at least 96kW of memory (but the message >> ??????? says that 124kW is required -- the actual check value was >> ??????? apparently overlooked and not updated). >> ??????? 8. Check CPU features: EIS (required), FPP, FIS, switch >> ??????? register, display register, MED, two register sets, system ID >> ??????? register, CIS, Data space. >> ??????? 9. If Unibus, check for UMR. >> ??????? 10. Find where memory is. This is done by looking at every 1kW >> ??????? address to see if it answers. So unlike some other operating >> ??????? systems, RSTS will keep looking if it finds a hole in memory. >> ??????? The kernel needs to be at 0 and contiguous, but holes above that >> ??????? are not a problem. >> ??????? 11. Scan the I/O bus for peripherals. This uses the fixed >> ??????? addresses and float rules for Unibus/Qbus (either, the code >> ??????? doesn't care) or the slot use bits and device type register >> ??????? codes for the Pro. >> ??????? 12. Find the vectors, which for almost every device is done by >> ??????? making it interrupt. >> ??????? 13. Identify specific device models if we care, like RL01 vs. >> ??????? RL02, Massbus disk type, DMC/DMR/DMP, etc. >> ??????? 14. Find which of these devices we were booted from. >> >> ??????? That's about it. Once you get past that point the INIT prompt >> ??????? appears and you can ask what INIT found with "HARDWARE LIST". >> >> ??????? Incidentally, RSTS doesn't try to identify the exact CPU type >> ??????? you have. Instead, it cares about features or distinctions that >> ??????? affect the code. In a number of cases it does report the type -- >> ??????? if MFPT works then "hardware list" will report that information. >> ??????? But for older CPUs, it doesn't say explicitly, though you can >> ??????? deduce it to some extent. If no type is given but there is cache >> ??????? and more than 128 kW of memory, it's an 11/70. If MED is >> ??????? available, it's an 11/60. If it has FIS, it can only be an >> ??????? 11/40. Etc... >> >> ??????? paul >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ??????? Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. >> ??????? View/Reply Online (#551): https://groups.io/g/simh/message/551 >> ??????? >> ??????? Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/81110197/4814011 >> ??????? >> ??????? Group Owner: simh+owner at groups.io >> ??????? Unsubscribe: >> https://groups.io/g/simh/leave/8625569/4814011/104597204/xyzzy >> >> ??????? [bqt at softjar.se] >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > From bqt at softjar.se Fri Mar 5 18:22:08 2021 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 01:22:08 +0100 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 2021-03-06 01:14, Chris Zach wrote: > Ah ok. For some reason I always thought the 23 could only run M, which > is still a fine platform. I'd be amazed if they got all the extra cool > features like disk caching working without I/D. Officially, you need the 11/23+. The original 11/23 is not supported, since that only had 18-bit addressing. Disk caching and so on is not a problem. It takes some memory, but if you have 22-bit addressing, then it's just a question of grabbing some more of all that free memory you have. ;-) However, on machines without split I/D space, what you normally have problems with in M+ is that system pool is very small. You have to be rather careful what you do with the system. But that's the way it is. Both on the 11/23+ and the 11/24. > But when I think about it, it makes sense: P/OS is basically M+ all the > way and runs on the Pro/350. But P/OS 2.0 will not allow you to run > split I/D applications on a 380 although you can compile them. Right. > Maybe this weekend I'll hack that SSD floppy thingie and load up the > P/OS 3.2 disks to see how that works. Can't run split I/D space on any version of P/OS. Neither does it support supervisor mode. Also, the J11 on the Pro-380 is running a bit on the slow side. Rather sad, but I guess they didn't want to improve the support chips on the Pro, which limited speed, and they didn't want to start having Pro software that didn't run on all models, which prevented the I/D space and supervisor mode. In the end I would probably just put it down to additional ways DEC themselves crippled the Pro, which otherwise could have been a much better machine. Johnny > > C > > On 3/5/2021 6:55 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> The 11/23 is officially supported, and does indeed lack I/D space >> (also true of the 11/24). Which implies that split I/D space is not >> actually a requirement for RSX-11M-PLUS. That would also be clear by >> reading the SPD. >> >> However, officially, there is a requirement for 22-bit addressing. >> Which means that both 11/40 and 11/60 is not supported. However, it is >> possible to run RSX-11M-PLUS on those machines. But you need to enable >> unsupported builds in order to do a SYSGEN for those machines. >> >> Also, this means that actually the 11/45 is not officially supported, >> as opposed to the 11/24 which is... >> >> ? Johnny >> >> On 2021-03-06 00:11, Chris Zach wrote: >>> How can you run m+ on an 11/23 or a 40? I thought it needed I/d space >>> to run thus I can see it on a 45. >>> >>> On March 5, 2021 6:02:45 PM EST, Johnny Billquist via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> ??? Nice writeup, Paul. And very interesting. >>> >>> ??? Just in case anyone wonder about RSX, here is how it's done in M+: >>> >>> ??? 1. Test if SYSID register exists >>> ???????? If SYSID register exists: >>> ???????? 2. Test if high bit of KISDR0 can be set and read back >>> ??????????? If high bit can be set and read back => 11/74 CPU >>> ??????????? If high bit cannot be set and read back => 11/70 CPU >>> ??? 3. Try MFPT instruction >>> ???????? If that succeeds: >>> ?????????? If R0 == 1 => 11/44 CPU >>> ?????????? If R0 == 3: >>> ???????????? 4. Try to read maintenance register >>> ??????????????? If register exists => XT CPU (Pro) >>> ??????????????? 5. If register does not exist, try writing to SWR >>> ?????????????????? If fail to write => 11/23 CPU >>> ?????????????????? If succeed to write => 11/24 CPU >>> ?????????? If R0 is something else, it is a J11 CPU, see more below. >>> ??? 6. Execute OP-codes 076600,000400 >>> ???????? If that succeeds => 11/60 CPU >>> ???????? If that fails: >>> ???????? 7. Execute OP-code 106700 >>> ??????????? If that succeeds => 11/34 CPU >>> ??????????? If that fails: >>> ??????????? 8. Try to read PIRQ register >>> ?????????????? If that succeeds => 11/45 CPU >>> ?????????????? If that fails: >>> ???????????????? CPU is one of: 11-/04/05/10/15/20/40 >>> ???????????????? M+ will just assume 11/40, since that is the only >>> possible >>> ???????????????? model that could possibly be running this code. => >>> 11/40 CPU >>> >>> >>> ??? For J11 processors, after point 3, we get into a J11 probing. >>> ??? 9. If R0 <> 5, it is not a J11 processor after all. => Unknown CPU >>> ??? 10. Read maintenance register >>> ????????? If fail => Unknown CPU >>> ??? 11. Check bits 4-7 of maintenance register: >>> ????????? == 4: => 11/53 CPU >>> ????????? == 3: => 11/73 CPU (not KDJ11) >>> ????????? == 1: Write KISDR7+1 to KISDR7+1 >>> ????????????????? Check if W bit in KISDR7 was set. >>> ??????????????????? If set => M11 CPU >>> ????????????????? Try opcodes 076660,156227 >>> ??????????????????? If succeed => N11 CPU >>> ????????? == 2: => 11/83 or 11/84 CPU (see step 12) >>> ????????? == 5: => 11/93 or 11/94 CPU (see step 12) >>> ??? 12. Check if Unibus system based on maintenance register >>> ????????? If Unibus system indicated, try read Unibus map register >>> ??????????? If Unibus map exist: => Unibus system. CPU 11/84 or 11/94 >>> (see 11) >>> ??? 13. Qbus system. CPU 11/83 or 11/93 (see 11) >>> >>> >>> ??? Note: M11 processor is called 11/95 >>> ??? Note: N11 processor is called 11/97 >>> >>> ??? That concludes how RSX-11M-PLUS decides what CPU you have at boot. >>> >>> ??? There are then probes for TOY, clock and memory, but that's a >>> different >>> ??? story. >>> >>> ??? If anyone wants more information, the code is in >>> LB:[12,10]SAVSIZ.MAC, >>> ??? routine $STCPU. But I'm happy to also answer any questions. >>> >>> ??? Also note that while doing these tests/probes, RSX is catching the >>> ??? illegal instruction trap, and just resumes execution but sets >>> carry. So >>> ??? for some of these tests, the carry is cleared, and the >>> instruction is >>> ??? attempted, and then there is a check if carry got set, as a way of >>> ??? seeing if it worked or not. The specific opcodes are for maintenance >>> ??? instructions that either are harmless on other models, or trap. And >>> ??? which do not affect the carry if executed on the assumed processor >>> ??? tested for. >>> >>> ??? Non-existant memory is also trapped, and execution resumed with >>> carry >>> ??? set. Same kind of idea... >>> >>> ??????? Johnny >>> >>> ??? On 2021-03-05 19:38, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> ??????? I was just asked some questions about how RSTS identifies your >>> ??????? processor type. Since that topic might be of broader interest I >>> ??????? figured I'd do some code reading and summarize the logic. >>> >>> ??????? In the RSTS initialization code (INIT.SYS), the first step is to >>> ??????? identify what your hardware looks like. That is a combination of >>> ??????? CPU type, bus type, memory layout, and peripheral configuration >>> ??????? lookup. They aren't strictly separated into sequential blocks >>> ??????? for those four activities, though naturally you'd want to know >>> ??????? the bus type before you start looking for I/O devices on that >>> bus. >>> >>> ??????? What I describe here is in RSTS/E V10.1. The general idea of >>> ??????? scanning the hardware was introduced in V6B, and I believe is >>> ??????? basically the same from that time onward apart from the addition >>> ??????? of support for more hardware types. Prior to V6B, the assumption >>> ??????? was that you had the hardware you specified during SYSGEN, >>> ??????? neither more nor less. >>> >>> ??????? Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan >>> flow: >>> >>> ??????? 1. If word 0 of the boot block contains a zero, this is a Pro >>> ??????? (CT bus); otherwise it isn't. >>> ??????? 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. >>> ??????? 3. Check the CPU type (MFPT instruction). If it's an F-11, see >>> ??????? if 177570 exist. If yes, 11/24 (Unibus); if no, 11/23 (Qbus). If >>> ??????? it's a J-11, read the board type register at 177750 and use the >>> ??????? bus type bit to distinguish Qbus from Unibus. >>> ??????? 4. Check that there is a clock, and if possible determine the >>> ??????? power line frequency. >>> ??????? 5. Check if there is a CPU cache, and whether there is a cache >>> ??????? error address register. >>> ??????? 6. If Qbus, check whether there is memory above the 18 bit >>> range. >>> ??????? 7. Check that there is at least 96kW of memory (but the message >>> ??????? says that 124kW is required -- the actual check value was >>> ??????? apparently overlooked and not updated). >>> ??????? 8. Check CPU features: EIS (required), FPP, FIS, switch >>> ??????? register, display register, MED, two register sets, system ID >>> ??????? register, CIS, Data space. >>> ??????? 9. If Unibus, check for UMR. >>> ??????? 10. Find where memory is. This is done by looking at every 1kW >>> ??????? address to see if it answers. So unlike some other operating >>> ??????? systems, RSTS will keep looking if it finds a hole in memory. >>> ??????? The kernel needs to be at 0 and contiguous, but holes above that >>> ??????? are not a problem. >>> ??????? 11. Scan the I/O bus for peripherals. This uses the fixed >>> ??????? addresses and float rules for Unibus/Qbus (either, the code >>> ??????? doesn't care) or the slot use bits and device type register >>> ??????? codes for the Pro. >>> ??????? 12. Find the vectors, which for almost every device is done by >>> ??????? making it interrupt. >>> ??????? 13. Identify specific device models if we care, like RL01 vs. >>> ??????? RL02, Massbus disk type, DMC/DMR/DMP, etc. >>> ??????? 14. Find which of these devices we were booted from. >>> >>> ??????? That's about it. Once you get past that point the INIT prompt >>> ??????? appears and you can ask what INIT found with "HARDWARE LIST". >>> >>> ??????? Incidentally, RSTS doesn't try to identify the exact CPU type >>> ??????? you have. Instead, it cares about features or distinctions that >>> ??????? affect the code. In a number of cases it does report the type -- >>> ??????? if MFPT works then "hardware list" will report that information. >>> ??????? But for older CPUs, it doesn't say explicitly, though you can >>> ??????? deduce it to some extent. If no type is given but there is cache >>> ??????? and more than 128 kW of memory, it's an 11/70. If MED is >>> ??????? available, it's an 11/60. If it has FIS, it can only be an >>> ??????? 11/40. Etc... >>> >>> ??????? paul >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ??????? Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. >>> ??????? View/Reply Online (#551): https://groups.io/g/simh/message/551 >>> ??????? >>> ??????? Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/81110197/4814011 >>> ??????? >>> ??????? Group Owner: simh+owner at groups.io >>> ??????? Unsubscribe: >>> https://groups.io/g/simh/leave/8625569/4814011/104597204/xyzzy >>> >>> ??????? [bqt at softjar.se] >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 19:17:08 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 20:17:08 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 1:37 PM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Tony Aiuto wrote: > > that gets lots of files with names like 'dsk:[1,4]specdf525].mic' > > That just seems wrong. > > Correct, back10 does get some things wrong. It also puts some data at > the beginning of files which should be part of the file header. TITO > uses the "*FAILSAFE" magic number which fools back10 to think it's > FAILSAFE. > > What problem do you have with my tito tool? Which tape did you try? > I haven't tested all tapes, so maybe some of them has surprises. > Like I said before $ ./tito -x -f 169249.tape fopen: Is a directory $ bin/back10 -l -f 169249.tape | head 18-Nov-1858 00:00:00 <754> dsk:[1,1][3,700202].ufd 18-Nov-1858 00:00:00 <754> dsk:[1,1][3,700004].ufd 18-Nov-1858 00:00:00 <754> dsk:[1,1][3,700220].ufd $ bin/back10 -x -f 169249.tape that gets lots of files with names like 'dsk:[1,4]specdf525].mic' > I'm not sure what to do with the file checksum yet. > That is useful to verify that we reassembled the pieces correctly. $ sha1sum 169249.tape 1230fb20086990a1ff777fce32591f2900425694 169249.tape This matches yours. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 19:33:04 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 20:33:04 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> Message-ID: <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> > On Mar 5, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Johnny Billquist via cctalk wrote: > > ... >> Maybe this weekend I'll hack that SSD floppy thingie and load up the P/OS 3.2 disks to see how that works. > > Can't run split I/D space on any version of P/OS. Neither does it support supervisor mode. Also, the J11 on the Pro-380 is running a bit on the slow side. Rather sad, but I guess they didn't want to improve the support chips on the Pro, which limited speed, and they didn't want to start having Pro software that didn't run on all models, which prevented the I/D space and supervisor mode. > > In the end I would probably just put it down to additional ways DEC themselves crippled the Pro, which otherwise could have been a much better machine. The most embarassing blunder with the Pro is that the bus supports DMA, but no I/O cards use it. Even though a bunch of them should have -- hard disk controller obviously, network adapter possibly as well. I/D and supervisor mode work fine on RSTS. :-) The explanation I heard for the slow J-11 clock is that the original J-11 spec called for it to operate at 20 MHz. When Harris failed to deliver and the max useable clock speed ended up to be 18 MHz, most designs had no trouble. But the Pro support chips were designed to run synchronous with the CPU clock and for various other reasons needed a clock frequency that's a multiple of 10 MHz, so when 20 MHz was ruled out that left 10 MHz as the only alternative. I would have liked better comms. The USART has such a tiny FIFO that you can't run it at higher than 9600 bps even with the J-11 CPU. At least not with RSTS; perhaps a lighter weight OS can do better. The printer port is worse, that one can't run DDCMP reliably at more than 4800 bps. I normally run DDCMP on the PC3XC, which is a 4-line serial card that uses two dual UART chips (2681?) with reasonable FIFO. paul From compoobah at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 19:39:07 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 17:39:07 -0800 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <23945b02a0a510b4184b6d930142a6960036e4d1.camel@gmail.com> On Wed, 2021-03-03 at 17:15 -0500, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I was a field application engineer for Microchip from 2008-2011, > making > POCs for big name customers in the bay area using 8, 16 and 32-bit > PICs. > > You will likely find that Microchip support is awful, even if their > products are pretty neat. There was an Arduino port for PICs called > "ChipKit" but I don't know if that's still being developed. > > The PicKit 3 is decent, if pretty slow. The ICD3 and later versions > are > good. MPLAB X is excellent IMO. I should still hold a design partner > discount so if you want to get some tools, contact me offline and > I'll see > if I can save you some money. > > That all said, I'm a huge fan of the STM32 ARM devices and the > community is > nearly as good as Nordic, and what Atmel used to be before it was > acquired > by Microchip. > > -- > Anders Nelson Hmm. Well sounds like it might be better to disassemble the existing provided PIC blobs and re-code for something else. Looks like the board is basically MAX232 level shifters and then the PICs to change the keyboard encoding, so theoretically any MCU should work. From bqt at softjar.se Fri Mar 5 20:02:12 2021 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 03:02:12 +0100 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2021-03-06 02:33, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 5, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Johnny Billquist via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >>> Maybe this weekend I'll hack that SSD floppy thingie and load up the P/OS 3.2 disks to see how that works. >> >> Can't run split I/D space on any version of P/OS. Neither does it support supervisor mode. Also, the J11 on the Pro-380 is running a bit on the slow side. Rather sad, but I guess they didn't want to improve the support chips on the Pro, which limited speed, and they didn't want to start having Pro software that didn't run on all models, which prevented the I/D space and supervisor mode. >> >> In the end I would probably just put it down to additional ways DEC themselves crippled the Pro, which otherwise could have been a much better machine. > > The most embarassing blunder with the Pro is that the bus supports DMA, but no I/O cards use it. Even though a bunch of them should have -- hard disk controller obviously, network adapter possibly as well. That's another good point about weird things about the Pro. > I/D and supervisor mode work fine on RSTS. :-) Really? That's nice. I would have loved to try and build a version of the latest RSX for the Pro, but unfortunately the code for the disk controllers are missing for me. The handling of the screen and keyboard are still in the RSX sources. > The explanation I heard for the slow J-11 clock is that the original J-11 spec called for it to operate at 20 MHz. When Harris failed to deliver and the max useable clock speed ended up to be 18 MHz, most designs had no trouble. But the Pro support chips were designed to run synchronous with the CPU clock and for various other reasons needed a clock frequency that's a multiple of 10 MHz, so when 20 MHz was ruled out that left 10 MHz as the only alternative. I do think it sounds weird that the support chips would require a clock that is a multiple of 10 MHz. But I wouldn't know for sure. Somewhere else I read/heard that they didn't work reliable above 10 MHz, but for the F11 that was ok. When the -380 came, they just reused those support chips. Also, no caches. The -380 could have been so much better... > I would have liked better comms. The USART has such a tiny FIFO that you can't run it at higher than 9600 bps even with the J-11 CPU. At least not with RSTS; perhaps a lighter weight OS can do better. The printer port is worse, that one can't run DDCMP reliably at more than 4800 bps. I normally run DDCMP on the PC3XC, which is a 4-line serial card that uses two dual UART chips (2681?) with reasonable FIFO. Hmm. I'm pretty sure I was running my -380 with the printer port for DDCMP on HECnet for a while, and at 9600 bps. But with P/OS, you are not using the console port as such. That's all on the graphics side. But unless I'm confused, that's the same port. The printer port just can also be the console port, if you short pins 8-9, right? Except it won't fully work the same as the DL11, since interrupts work differently. But polled I/O will work the same. But I would expect the speed characteristics to be the same for the console as for the printer port. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Mar 5 20:15:22 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 21:15:22 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> Can't run split I/D space on any version of P/OS. Neither does it support supervisor mode. Also, the J11 on the Pro-380 is running a bit on the slow side. Rather sad, but I guess they didn't want to improve the support chips on the Pro, which limited speed, and they didn't want to start having Pro software that didn't run on all models, which prevented the I/D space and supervisor mode. That sucks. I sometimes wonder how hard it would be to code the hard disk driver, if it doesn't do DMA it's probably simple as dirt to be honest. Any idea if it worked like MCSP or was it totally off the wall? > The most embarassing blunder with the Pro is that the bus supports DMA, but no I/O cards use it. Even though a bunch of them should have -- hard disk controller obviously, network adapter possibly as well. I think they used an intel chipset to handle the CTI bus, so the normal Q-Bus DMA methods just doesn't work. Hm. Wonder if the problem is they just didn't build the driver to support DMA, or if they found some problem that made DMA just not work at all.... The 380 *was* a mess, mine is a formidable bit of kit with DECNA and everything, but without I/D space it's really not too very useful as more than a really nice VT terminal. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 20:22:03 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 19:22:03 -0700 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 6:33 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I would have liked better comms. The USART has such a tiny FIFO that you > can't run it at higher than 9600 bps even with the J-11 CPU. At least not > with RSTS; perhaps a lighter weight OS can do better. The printer port is > worse, that one can't run DDCMP reliably at more than 4800 bps. I normally > run DDCMP on the PC3XC, which is a 4-line serial card that uses two dual > UART chips (2681?) with reasonable FIFO. > There seem to be a great many models of Unibus and Qbus multi-port async serial boards, which present different register-level interfaces, e.g. for Unibus, DH11, DHU11, DJ11, DM11, DZ11 . Which ones are considered "best", for each bus, for use with a multitasking OS like RSTS/E or RSX-11M+? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Mar 5 21:05:22 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 22:05:22 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: > There seem to be a great many models of Unibus and Qbus multi-port async > serial boards, which present different register-level interfaces, e.g. for > Unibus, DH11, DHU11, DJ11, DM11, DZ11 . Which ones are considered "best", > for each bus, for use with a multitasking OS like RSTS/E or RSX-11M+? Depends on your use case. The mighty DLV11 is nice, but it's interrupt driven so every time you shove a character out it takes bus cycles and every time a character comes in you have to drop what you're doing. The DLV11-J will run down your system if used for interactive users as it's 4 DLV11's. DZV is a step up, you at least have an incoming FIFO, can program the baud rates in software, and they can afford to buffer a bit. But a bunch of DZV11's can sink your bus as well, so you go to the DHV11. DHV11 is what you need for a lot of users: Bigger FIFO buffer for input, DMA access to do a lot of characters in a few bus cycles, and oddly enough intelligence to do things like automatically send XON and XOFF without having to bother the CPU. Apparently you can send and receive on all 8 channels at 9600 baud simultaneously which is pretty good. Going above this you start to get into the DMC11 type boards which have hardware support for DDCMP and the like. That's what you want if you're going to do DECNET Phase III over serial lines. You can do it with the other boards but the CPU is going to have to deal with the framing and whatnot. But by then you just do ethernet. C > From bqt at softjar.se Fri Mar 5 21:08:50 2021 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 04:08:50 +0100 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <59ed9e88-7551-4424-7baa-eca1f95a3012@softjar.se> On 2021-03-06 03:22, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 6:33 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > > wrote: > > I would have liked better comms.? The USART has such a tiny FIFO > that you can't run it at higher than 9600 bps even with the J-11 > CPU.? At least not with RSTS; perhaps a lighter weight OS can do > better.? The printer port is worse, that one can't run DDCMP > reliably at more than 4800 bps.? I normally run DDCMP on the PC3XC, > which is a 4-line serial card that uses two dual UART chips (2681?) > with reasonable FIFO. > > > There seem to be a great many models of Unibus and Qbus multi-port async > serial boards, which present different register-level interfaces, e.g. > for Unibus, DH11, DHU11, DJ11, DM11, DZ11 . Which ones are considered > "best", for each bus, for use with a multitasking OS like RSTS/E or > RSX-11M+? In general, you should pick a controller that can do as much as possible with DMA. Which means DH11 or DHU11 for Unibus. Similar with Qbus: DHV11. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 21:26:19 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 19:26:19 -0800 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 7:05 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > There seem to be a great many models of Unibus and Qbus multi-port async > > serial boards, which present different register-level interfaces, e.g. for > > Unibus, DH11, DHU11, DJ11, DM11, DZ11 . Which ones are considered "best", > > for each bus, for use with a multitasking OS like RSTS/E or RSX-11M+? > > DHV11 is what you need for a lot of users: Bigger FIFO buffer for input, > DMA access to do a lot of characters in a few bus cycles, and oddly > enough intelligence to do things like automatically send XON and XOFF > without having to bother the CPU. Apparently you can send and receive on > all 8 channels at 9600 baud simultaneously which is pretty good. > And then isn't the M3107 DHQ11 slightly better than the M3104 DHV11? DHQ11 User Guide, EK-DHQ11-UG-002 The main application of the DHQ11 is for interactive terminal handling; it can also be used for data concentration and real-time processing. It has two programming modes, DHV11 and DHU11. The register sets in these modes are compatible with those of the DHV11 and DHU11 respectively. The preferred mode of operation is DHU11 mode. The main features of the DHQ11 are: For transmission: DMA transfers; or for each line, program transfers to a 1-character transmit buffer in DHV11 mode, or to a 64-character transmit FIFO in DHU11 mode. For receive: a 256-entry FIFO buffer for received characters, dataset status changes, and diagnostic information. (And also, the M3118 CXA16 and M3119 CXY08 are essentially equivalent to the M3107 DHQ11 from a software and performance point of view, but in S-handle card form factor?) From lars at nocrew.org Sat Mar 6 00:54:58 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 06:54:58 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: (Tony Aiuto's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2021 20:17:08 -0500") References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Tony Aiuto wrote: >> What problem do you have with my tito tool? > > $ ./tito -x -f 169249.tape > fopen: Is a directory This appears to be because creating an output file was attempted, but there was already a directory there with the same name. I'm updating the program to print better error messages. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Mar 6 01:43:50 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 00:43:50 -0700 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 7:41 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > After thinking about disk imaging tools like Greaseweasel, > I started thinking about tools that would grab and examine the unused > portions of disks. > I've used this to recover a couple of Univation utilities from a disk that they had been deleted from... It's quite useful... It was a FAT filesystem, and the files were small and contiguous so it was easy... Warner > It's obviously file-system dependent. At one level we know of > "undelete" tools that could piece together recently deleted files > and restore them intact by using abandoned bits of block table info. > Of course some simple file systems can't even permit that. > > But very few systems would bother to zero out the released blocks > of erased or rewritten files and then blocks are left full of > old data. Text source code would be easy to spot. > > I have vague memories of bits of Amiga OS source code being unintentionally > released in unused blocks on OS binary disks that were sent out for > mass duplication and distribution. > > This situation makes me hesitant to release disk images from the past. > It's one thing to do it with disks that were mine and to take > responsibility > for my risk; it's another to release disks once owned and used by others. > Do the unused sectors contain their love letters from 1983? > > Or if I want to release disk images that contain known personal files, > how will I image, then remove specific files, then zero unused blocks > if I don't want to alter the original media? > > Obviously in some situations the relevant files can be pulled and > redistributed in a new filesystem like a Zip. > > The situation only gets worse with distributing larger images of > entire hard disks. Or with Windows, "quick format" doesn't zero blocks. > > In another case I encountered while digging through files on an old > RSTS backup tape, we had a program that logged usage data to a file > and for speed purposes it would preallocate a large file (as opposed > to extending the file, which was slower) and then write block records > to it. RSTS reused blocks without zeroing. In the unused blocks > of an extant file I found an email I'd sent in '82 as well as bits > from other users of the same timesharing system. > > Certainly the archivists out there have considered these questions. > How are they solved? > > Are there notable tools that focus on the files that aren't there? > > I don't mean modern forensic carving tools... but some concepts would > be similar. > > - John > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Mar 6 05:57:38 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 05:57:38 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [TUHS] A stack of PDP-11 field maintenance print sets Message-ID: <20210306115753.D8A0227349@mx1.ezwind.net> > >From: John Floren >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:51:40 -0800 >To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society >Subject: [TUHS] A stack of PDP-11 field maintenance print sets > >I've been hauling around a pile of DEC Field Maintenance Print Sets >for PDP-11 components for over a decade now, intending to see if >they're worth having scanned or if there are digital versions out >there already. Can anyone on the list point me to either an existing >archive where these exist, or an archivist who would be interested in >scanning them? They're full of exploded diagrams, schematics, and >assembly listings. > >Here's the list of what I have: > >Field Maintenance Print Set (17" wide, 11" high): >RLV11 disk controller >RL01-AK disk drive >ADV-11A (??) > >Field Maintenance Print Set (14" wide, 8.5" high): >RL01 disk drive >DLV11-J serial line controller >RLV11 disk controller >KFD11-A cpu >KEF11-A floating point processor >PDP11/23 >PDP11/03-L > >Absolutely not tossing them, just wondering if there are already >scanned copies available somewhere, if I should send them off to be >scanned and put online, or if I should just check in with computer >museums (I'm near the CHM, for instance) > >John Floren From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 6 08:15:25 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 09:15:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] A stack of PDP-11 field maintenance print sets Message-ID: <20210306141525.A4C0F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Floren > Can anyone on the list point me to either an existing archive where > these exist The canonical repository for historic documentation online is BitSavers. It has an almost-complete set of DEC stuff (both manuals and prints. QBUS devices are at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/ QBUS CPU's will be in the relevant model directory, e.g.: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1123/ and disk drives are in: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/ I haven't checked your list, but I suspect most of them are there; I think the ADV11-A prints are missing, though. You can either send the originals to Al Kossow, or scan them for him; but check with him first, to make sure he doen't already have them, just hasn't got around to posting them yet. There's another site which indexes DEC online documentation: https://manx-docs.org/ There are a very few things which aren't in Bitsavers, and can be found there. > KFD11-A cpu I assume that's a typo for 'KDF11-A'? Noel From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Mar 6 08:56:58 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 14:56:58 +0000 (WET) Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01RWCOSSNAWI8ZHSNO@beyondthepale.ie> Johnny Billquist wrote: >On 2021-03-06 02:33, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> The explanation I heard for the slow J-11 clock is that the original J-11 >> spec called for it to operate at 20 MHz. When Harris failed to deliver >> and the max useable clock speed ended up to be 18 MHz, most designs had >> no trouble. But the Pro support chips were designed to run synchronous >> with the CPU clock and for various other reasons needed a clock frequency >> that's a multiple of 10 MHz, so when 20 MHz was ruled out that left 10 MHz >> as the only alternative. > >I do think it sounds weird that the support chips would require a clock >that is a multiple of 10 MHz. But I wouldn't know for sure. >Somewhere else I read/heard that they didn't work reliable above 10 MHz, >but for the F11 that was ok. When the -380 came, they just reused those >support chips. > The 6502 CPU in the BBC Micro operates at 2 MHz but periperals such as the 6522 Versatile Interface Adapters contain timers which only run at their expected speed when used with a 1 MHz clock. I wonder could it be that the Pro support chips would run ok at 18 MHz but there would have been difficulties with programming timers etc which are clocked at an odd speed? (The BBC Micro got around this problem by running the CPU at 2 MHz and stretching the clock cycle to 1 MHz when accessing the VIAs. The clock circuit is a real birds nest...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From lars at nocrew.org Sat Mar 6 10:48:55 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 16:48:55 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: (Tony Aiuto's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2021 20:17:08 -0500") References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wzgzgdy88.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Tony Aiuto wrote: >> I'm not sure what to do with the file checksum yet. > That is useful to verify that we reassembled the pieces correctly. I phrased that poorly. What I meant was the checksum that is stored on the tape along with each file. Or at least that's what the documentation says. To me it looks like some files have it, others don't. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 6 10:49:52 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 16:49:52 -0000 Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff In-Reply-To: <54D96EA0-1619-4421-9A36-576210D663EB@avanthar.com> References: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> <54D96EA0-1619-4421-9A36-576210D663EB@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <000201d712a8$bafe9090$30fbb1b0$@ntlworld.com> I am in the UK and wouldn't mind any interesting manuals. However, since Brexit I don't think postage to the UK is all that cheap and simple either! I don't have a PDP10 (I wish I did!), but I do run the SIMH PDP10 occasionally to run TOPS20. In fact, I would like to take the opportunity to once again ask if anyone happens to have a copy of the PDP10 port of ALGOL68C? I would dearly love to find this. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Zane Healy via > cctalk > Sent: 05 March 2021 22:19 > To: Philipp Hachtmann ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff > > On Mar 5, 2021, at 4:19 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I habe some pdp10 related docs which need to go away. > > Anybody interested? Or should I dump it (and reuse the white folders foro > pdp8 stuff)? > > > > https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0r5oqs3qGclUOi > > > > Kind regards > > Philipp > > Hopefully someone in close by in Europe responds, I?m not sure I want to > know what it would cost to ship this to the US. I have to agree with Rob, it > would help to know what you have. Do you at least know what isn?t already > on Bitsavers? I really hate to see the loss of any PDP-10 documentation at > this point. > > Zane > > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Mar 6 10:53:46 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 11:53:46 -0500 Subject: pdp11, pdp8 prototyping boards Message-ID: <08ef7091-4f16-eb86-fcf1-ab9f03cf0ab9@e-bbes.com> Don't know if you guys know about them, I just tripped over them... https://www.tindie.com/products/glitchwrks/gw-dec-1-prototyping-board-for-pdp-11-pdp-8-etc/ Cheers From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Mar 6 11:35:58 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 09:35:58 -0800 Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff In-Reply-To: <000201d712a8$bafe9090$30fbb1b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> <54D96EA0-1619-4421-9A36-576210D663EB@avanthar.com> <000201d712a8$bafe9090$30fbb1b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2021, at 8:49 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I am in the UK and wouldn't mind any interesting manuals. However, since Brexit I don't think postage to the UK is all that cheap and simple either! > > I don't have a PDP10 (I wish I did!), but I do run the SIMH PDP10 occasionally to run TOPS20. > > In fact, I would like to take the opportunity to once again ask if anyone happens to have a copy of the PDP10 port of ALGOL68C? I would dearly love to find this. > > Regards > > Rob Did you look at Al?s dump of tape images this week? I noticed one or two of them are supposed to be ALGOL related, but haven?t had time to even think about looking into the PDP-10 stuff that was included. Zane From compoobah at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 11:59:10 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 09:59:10 -0800 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Realized I didn't post the project I was looking at just in case others were interested: https://tudl1910.home.xs4all.nl/rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm Converter to use PS/2 keyboards with SGI Indigo, Onyx, Crimson and 4D series machines. Not my page, not my project, not my work (yet). From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 6 12:13:27 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 10:13:27 -0800 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <8379bcb1-9597-3e21-76cb-a2bc45a3244b@sydex.com> On 3/6/21 9:59 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote: > Realized I didn't post the project I was looking at just in case others > were interested: > > https://tudl1910.home.xs4all.nl/rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm > > Converter to use PS/2 keyboards with SGI Indigo, Onyx, Crimson and 4D > series machines. > Not my page, not my project, not my work (yet). Way overkill for the job, IMHO. Drop the crystal and use a smaller 8 pin PIC12 MCU--the internal RC clock is more than good enough. It should be possible to do the same using a Blue Pill cheapie and MAX232 level shifter. Still if this is a one-off, I doubt that it would matter to the user. FWIW, I did the PC AT/PS2 to PC XT keyboard converter years ago using the cheapest PIC I could find--a 12F629--and I still had program memory left over. A cap, a diode and a resistor were the only external components. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 6 12:54:32 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 18:54:32 -0000 Subject: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff In-Reply-To: References: <55562F49-4DAF-4890-B637-FADF525F3D66@hachti.de> <54D96EA0-1619-4421-9A36-576210D663EB@avanthar.com> <000201d712a8$bafe9090$30fbb1b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000801d712ba$252e7e60$6f8b7b20$@ntlworld.com> I did indeed take a quick look but there didn't seem to be anything in there. I might have missed something though. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane Healy > Sent: 06 March 2021 17:36 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; Philipp Hachtmann > Subject: Re: Pdp10 and TOPS 10 stuff > > On Mar 6, 2021, at 8:49 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > I am in the UK and wouldn't mind any interesting manuals. However, since > Brexit I don't think postage to the UK is all that cheap and simple either! > > > > I don't have a PDP10 (I wish I did!), but I do run the SIMH PDP10 > occasionally to run TOPS20. > > > > In fact, I would like to take the opportunity to once again ask if anyone > happens to have a copy of the PDP10 port of ALGOL68C? I would dearly love > to find this. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > Did you look at Al?s dump of tape images this week? I noticed one or two of > them are supposed to be ALGOL related, but haven?t had time to even think > about looking into the PDP-10 stuff that was included. > > Zane > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 6 12:56:26 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 13:56:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: RSTS processor identification Message-ID: <20210306185626.A090C18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Here is an outline (not all the details) of the hardware scan flow: > ... > 2. Make sure the MMU exist; if not, halt. > ... > If it has FIS, it can only be an 11/40. You probably know this already, but the KEV1-A floating point chip for the LSI-11 also implemenred FIS. (Of course, the LSI-11 would fail step 2, so it's not really a factor here.) Noel From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sat Mar 6 16:16:06 2021 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 22:16:06 +0000 Subject: FS: Large Collection of HP LX Palmtop Items in Germany Message-ID: I am posting, with permission from Daniel, the following "For Sale" message from the HPLX Mailing List for a large collection of HP LX Palmtop hardware, software and books. Daniel Hertrich has been a major contributor to the HPLX List, creating a backlight mod, and doing HPLX repairs. His web site, www.hermocom.com, has been an important repository of information about the HP Palmtops. He can be reached at daniel at hertrich.photo and is located in Bavaria, Germany. I have no interest in the sale, etc. Regards, Bob Hi friends :) In short (longer text below): You can see my collection in detail here: https://360bayern.de/pano/daniels_palmtop_collection/index.html (zoom in with zoom gesture or scroll wheel) 2,000 ? total for the entire collection. Shipping or delivery from Bavaria, Germany. You can hover over each item and get a description tooltip (except for items that are self-explanatory, such as the books), some are even clickable, and the click leads to a website describing the item. Most clicks lead you to my own website www.hermocom.com, because I documented a lot of the stuff that I worked on back then. :) If you like to provide more link targets for the items, please do so. then I'll gladly add them. Note that for the high-resolution image (300 Megapixel) I used panorama software to stitch 10 individual images, so you can zoom in and see a lot of details of the single items. But given the unusual "panorama" setup for capturing the collection, there are stitching errors in the image, so some items look as if they might be broken, but they are not. ;) You can always switch to the lower-resolution standard image (40 Megapixel) to check that there is really no crack in the item. The descriptions and (obviously) the high details when zooming, however, are only available in the high-resolution image. So here comes the longer text: :) No, I won't say goodbye to you! I'll stay here with you. And I'll keep a few items from my collection for myself. But the rest of my collection has to go. The Palmtop hobby was a really great one for me, probably the most important one, until I began with photography. I learned so much during all these years since 1997, when I bought my first 200LX. Until 2005 the 200LX even was my main computer (i.e.: the one I used most). I started so many hardware and software projects to support my own work and also the community, and I got a lot of support from you, the community, as well. Thank you so much for that, and for all these years of fun! :) I have (even until now!) never been part of a community that I gave to and got from that much support and heart-warming talks, even if the topic was most of the times a very unemotional one: Computers! I've even built my own small business around all that ("hermocom - hertrich mobile computing"). The business was never really "successful" in the sense of earning money, but that was not important to me. Important was, that I could take the money earned from it and invest it into new research, new projects, new hardware, to keep it all going and constantly improve. I think, the most important success (again, not in the monetary sense) was the development of a feasible and relatively affordable backlight solution for the 200LX, made possible by the great help of Hal Goldstein and his team at Thaddeus Computing by handing me over their material they got from their own research in this field. I will keep two used 200LXs and one 1000CX, as well as a few important accessories (an LED light, one 200LX has a backlight, some PCMCIA cards etc.) and spare parts, but all the remaining parts and devices, even two like-new(!) 200LXs just take up space here and only once a year or so they give me nostalgic feelings and a smile. Given that I am currently in a financial emergency situation with my photography business, that's heavily damaged due to the Corona situation, I clearly need the money more than the nostalgic feelings. :) For each item in the collection (except for almost all the books and a few trivial items, which I will add for free), I estimated a value, then summed up these values and resulted in a total value of 2,300 ?. I would prefer to sell the collection in its entirety, and would offer the entire collection for 2,000 ?. That price does not include shipping costs. In case nobody wants to buy the entire collection for a couple of weeks, I'll probably slice the collection into smaller chunks or offer items one by one. If you are interested in a particular set of items (collection chunk), let me know. I may consider that. The collection fits into a standard-sized moving box, with not much padding. For shipping, I'd like to add much more padding, so that it would probably take 2 moving boxes for shipping. Within Germany, I would deliver the collection in my area for free (85077 Manching, near Ingolstadt + 100km). I'd also consider delivering it within a wider distance against a refund of my driving costs. That would maybe be cheaper than parcel shipping for two heavy moving boxes and it would allow for a beer and a good talk :) Okay, so now have fun exploring my collection. :) If you are interested or have questions, you may contact me at daniel at hertrich.photo. ....This is quite an emotional step for me... Oh boy. Daniel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 6 16:59:12 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 22:59:12 -0000 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test Message-ID: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> I have a DECstation 220 (Olivetti M250E) which is failing POST on a "simple test of the 80286 protected mode". It says in a service manual I have that for this test the CPU is set in the protected mode, the machine status word is checked to see whether it indicates the protected mode and then exits protected mode. This test seems to be failing. Is there any possible explanation for this other than a failed 80286 CPU? Could there be any external reason? This board suffered some battery leak damage. Clearly the 80286 is working well enough to execute this diagnostic and send some text to the screen, so it basically works. Thanks Rob From spc at conman.org Sat Mar 6 17:10:07 2021 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 18:10:07 -0500 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20210306231007.GD20079@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Rob Jarratt via cctalk once stated: > I have a DECstation 220 (Olivetti M250E) which is failing POST on a "simple > test of the 80286 protected mode". It says in a service manual I have that > for this test the CPU is set in the protected mode, the machine status word > is checked to see whether it indicates the protected mode and then exits > protected mode. This test seems to be failing. Is there any possible > explanation for this other than a failed 80286 CPU? Could there be any > external reason? This board suffered some battery leak damage. Clearly the > 80286 is working well enough to execute this diagnostic and send some text > to the screen, so it basically works. There might be damage to the keyboard controller that could cause the issue. Once the 80286 is in protected mode, there is no way to get out of protected mode except via the RESET signal. If I remember correctly, you could program the keyboard controller to send a RESET signal to get out of protected mode. Also, the keyboard controller also managed the state of address line A20, which is another important factor on PCs. -spc From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 6 17:16:39 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:16:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: A stupid idea: Could the test require, and be failing, access to memory above 1M? On Sat, 6 Mar 2021, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have a DECstation 220 (Olivetti M250E) which is failing POST on a "simple > test of the 80286 protected mode". It says in a service manual I have that > for this test the CPU is set in the protected mode, the machine status word > is checked to see whether it indicates the protected mode and then exits > protected mode. This test seems to be failing. Is there any possible > explanation for this other than a failed 80286 CPU? Could there be any > external reason? This board suffered some battery leak damage. Clearly the > 80286 is working well enough to execute this diagnostic and send some text > to the screen, so it basically works. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Mar 6 17:20:00 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 17:20:00 -0600 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <60440E20.6090700@charter.net> Rob, There is probably hidden damage to the motherboard. The acid will follow the traces inside the board and consume them. There is no way to stop this kind of damage. Sorry for the bad news. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/6/2021 4:59 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have a DECstation 220 (Olivetti M250E) which is failing POST on a "simple > test of the 80286 protected mode". It says in a service manual I have that > for this test the CPU is set in the protected mode, the machine status word > is checked to see whether it indicates the protected mode and then exits > protected mode. This test seems to be failing. Is there any possible > explanation for this other than a failed 80286 CPU? Could there be any > external reason? This board suffered some battery leak damage. Clearly the > 80286 is working well enough to execute this diagnostic and send some text > to the screen, so it basically works. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 6 17:29:54 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 23:29:54 -0000 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <60440E20.6090700@charter.net> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> <60440E20.6090700@charter.net> Message-ID: <001001d712e0$9cf97f50$d6ec7df0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Pope > Sent: 06 March 2021 23:20 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 80286 Protected Mode Test > > Rob, > There is probably hidden damage to the motherboard. The acid will follow > the traces inside the board and consume them. There is no way to stop this > kind of damage. Sorry for the bad news. I should have said that I have found a few bad tracks and I have fixed them by adding wires. Previously it would not even POST, but it does now. The CPU is physically distant from the battery damage. I am trying to understand if this particular test could fail due to external factors or not so that I can then investigate if there are other tracks I need to fix. Incidentally, my repair wires are done very badly, are there any tips on how to do this well? I have ordered some wire wrap wire because I believe that is what I should be using, but I haven't got the wire yet. Thanks Rob > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/6/2021 4:59 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have a DECstation 220 (Olivetti M250E) which is failing POST on a > > "simple test of the 80286 protected mode". It says in a service manual > > I have that for this test the CPU is set in the protected mode, the > > machine status word is checked to see whether it indicates the > > protected mode and then exits protected mode. This test seems to be > > failing. Is there any possible explanation for this other than a > > failed 80286 CPU? Could there be any external reason? This board > > suffered some battery leak damage. Clearly the > > 80286 is working well enough to execute this diagnostic and send some > > text to the screen, so it basically works. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 6 18:07:36 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 16:07:36 -0800 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <20210306231007.GD20079@brevard.conman.org> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> <20210306231007.GD20079@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <68acb1ba-ef96-a886-56e0-7351b3b7af33@sydex.com> On 3/6/21 3:10 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > There might be damage to the keyboard controller that could cause the > issue. Once the 80286 is in protected mode, there is no way to get out of > protected mode except via the RESET signal. If I remember correctly, you > could program the keyboard controller to send a RESET signal to get out of > protected mode. Also, the keyboard controller also managed the state of > address line A20, which is another important factor on PCs. I'll add that, at least in the PC AT world, the switch to real mode is accomplished by writing a value into a reserved cell in CMOS (configuration memory--I wish they'd lose that 4-letter appellation--what, in a modern PC *isn't* CMOS?). Upon executing the reset code, the BIOS checks for the "reason for shutdown". If it was a switch to real mode, then all of the various hardware tests are bypassed, the register file is restored and execution continues. What this means that if your CMOS (ugh!) memory isn't functioning, the switch to real mode won't work. --Chuck From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 19:07:07 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 20:07:07 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 1:54 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Tony Aiuto wrote: > >> What problem do you have with my tito tool? > > > > $ ./tito -x -f 169249.tape > > fopen: Is a directory > > This appears to be because creating an output file was attempted, but > there was already a directory there with the same name. I'm updating > the program to print better error messages. > I think that is an artifact of the files being created with the wrong names. For example, with tape 169249, after you skip the UFDs, tito -t prints (SYS) .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] (SYS) .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] (SYS) .SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] (SYS) .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] All the file names are missing. That seems not right. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 6 19:20:56 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 17:20:56 -0800 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 3/5/21 6:41 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > After thinking about disk imaging tools like Greaseweasel, > I started thinking about tools that would grab and examine the unused > portions of disks. The data forensics folks are at least 20 years ahead of you, John! They're interested in *everything* on disk, active or not. More than 30 years ago, I posted a utility for MSDOS floppies called "SEEJUNK". It was very revealing what could be found on manufacturers' disks. To be fair, I also wrote a companion utility to clean the stuff out called PRUNE. It wasn't long after that when vendors were made aware of the issue and took action fast. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Mar 6 19:55:31 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:55:31 -0600 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210307020203.3961E2735A@mx1.ezwind.net> At 07:20 PM 3/6/2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >The data forensics folks are at least 20 years ahead of you, John! >They're interested in *everything* on disk, active or not. Yes, I've looked at some of the high-end tools and once wondered about a career in data forensics. I've had a few consulting clients push me in this direction, asking the question "what exactly was this employee really doing?" short of a criminal investigation. For purposes of this thread, of course, I was thinking about all the old file systems. I imagine the expensive packages don't handle, say, UCSD Pascal or RT-11 or Amiga disk file systems, right? But I bet they handle FAT and NTFS and Mac and Unix/Linux. One feature from the big-boy software that would be nice to carry down to the old stuff would be lists of known OS files so they could be subtracted from disks (thereby leaving the user-created stuff.) >More than 30 years ago, I posted a utility for MSDOS floppies called >"SEEJUNK". https://lostarchives.org/category/27/file/2258# And I guess I hadn't thought of that case where the file system named the number of bytes in the file and that the unused ends of blocks could also contain stuff, too. Is there a name for those bytes? > It was very revealing what could be found on manufacturers' >disks. Such as? >To be fair, I also wrote a companion utility to clean the stuff >out called PRUNE. And Microsoft is still handing out a zeroing tool, useful in several situations including thinning virtualized drives. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/sdelete - John From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Mar 6 22:23:05 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 20:23:05 -0800 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <20210306231007.GD20079@brevard.conman.org> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> <20210306231007.GD20079@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 3/6/2021 3:10 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > Once the 80286 is in protected mode, there is no way to get out of > protected mode except via the RESET signal. The 286 can exit protected mode with the LOADALL instruction. Microsoft's extended memory driver pissed off the world (Intel) when someone noticed it was addressing +1mb memory with no hint of the reset.? The rest of the world used a driver and memory buffer algorithm which optimized accessing > 1mb because of the horrible latency involved in what you are describing. Another client and some friends I had were caught with their s**t stinking because they'd used it in their bios (Micro5 systems). I suspect there's some sort of failure involved like that, but not sure how it could live to print the message in the case of going into protected mode but not getting back out. As far as a defective 80286 I can't imagine it passing a lot of the bios test code at all if it was internally damaged. Any POST card (port 80) handy?? Maybe some hints there? thanks Jim From jim at deitygraveyard.com Sat Mar 6 22:47:52 2021 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 23:47:52 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:07 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > I think that is an artifact of the files being created with the wrong names. > For example, with tape 169249, after you skip the UFDs, tito -t prints > > (SYS) .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > (SYS) .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] > (SYS) .SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] > (SYS) .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > All the file names are missing. That seems not right. Very not right, because this is what tito -t is giving me: (SYS) PIP .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] (SYS) PIP .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] (SYS) LOGINN.SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] (SYS) COBOL .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] (SYS) BINCON.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] (SYS) VPDATA.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] Those are the first 6 after the UFDs, and extensions and date/timestamps match yours. I don't have any, at least on 169249, missing the first part of the file name. Jim From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Mar 6 17:27:06 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 18:27:06 -0500 Subject: TSS/8 & dectape Message-ID: <20210306232706.GA144392@hugin3> I'm having trouble using DECtapes with TSS/8 under SIMH. I tried with both the RF image and LCM RK05 image and no mater what I do it hangs if I try to access a DECtape. I am trying to use COPY command from account 2. I attach a dectape in simh then assign it in TSS and then try to get a directory or zero the tape with copy. Both hang. Anybody with more TSS knowledge know how to get this to work. Images from bitsavers http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/bitsavers/unknown/ 7196, 7211, 7242, and 7280 have text where TSS/8 was mentioned. These are the ones I wanted to use TSS to see if I can get a directory. 7241, 7253, 7264, 7265, 7275, 7278, 7291, 7292 have contents but nothing I can identify. There are also some LINCtapes that had read issues so unable to determine what the are. What I have decoded http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml See last 3. From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 18:50:37 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 16:50:37 -0800 Subject: TSS/8 & dectape In-Reply-To: <20210306232706.GA144392@hugin3> References: <20210306232706.GA144392@hugin3> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 3:27 PM David Gesswein via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm having trouble using DECtapes with TSS/8 under SIMH. I tried with both > the > RF image and LCM RK05 image and no mater what I do it hangs if I try to > access a DECtape. > > I am trying to use COPY command from account 2. > > I attach a dectape in simh then assign it in TSS and then try to get a > directory or zero the tape with copy. Both hang. Anybody with more TSS > knowledge know how to get this to work. > I've never tried using a dectape as an assignable device in TSS/8; have you tried using PUTR? I used that a number of times on the TC08 setup at LCM to transfer files and it seemed to work (once I fixed the bug I introduced into the LCM TSS/8 code inadvertently -- the latest stuff on github should be correct.) > > Images from bitsavers > http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/bitsavers/unknown/ > 7196, 7211, 7242, and 7280 have text where TSS/8 was mentioned. These are > the > ones I wanted to use TSS to see if I can get a directory. > > 7241, 7253, 7264, 7265, 7275, 7278, 7291, 7292 have contents but nothing I > can identify. > Ooh, let me know if you find anything. - Josh > > There are also some LINCtapes that had read issues so unable to determine > what the are. > > > What I have decoded > http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml > > See last 3. > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 7 01:46:11 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 07:46:11 -0000 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <68acb1ba-ef96-a886-56e0-7351b3b7af33@sydex.com> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> <20210306231007.GD20079@brevard.conman.org> <68acb1ba-ef96-a886-56e0-7351b3b7af33@sydex.com> Message-ID: <001101d71325$f2124400$d636cc00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 07 March 2021 00:08 > To: Sean Conner via cctalk > Subject: Re: 80286 Protected Mode Test > > On 3/6/21 3:10 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > > > There might be damage to the keyboard controller that could cause > > the issue. Once the 80286 is in protected mode, there is no way to > > get out of protected mode except via the RESET signal. If I remember > > correctly, you could program the keyboard controller to send a RESET > > signal to get out of protected mode. Also, the keyboard controller > > also managed the state of address line A20, which is another important > factor on PCs. > > I'll add that, at least in the PC AT world, the switch to real mode is > accomplished by writing a value into a reserved cell in CMOS (configuration > memory--I wish they'd lose that 4-letter appellation--what, in a modern PC > *isn't* CMOS?). Upon executing the > reset code, the BIOS checks for the "reason for shutdown". If it was a > switch to real mode, then all of the various hardware tests are bypassed, the > register file is restored and execution continues. > > What this means that if your CMOS (ugh!) memory isn't functioning, the > switch to real mode won't work. I wondered if that might be how it works after reading that you can only switch to real mode with a reset. I will follow this line of inquiry. Thanks for the suggestion! > > --Chuck From lars at nocrew.org Sun Mar 7 02:03:09 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 08:03:09 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: (Jim Carpenter via cctalk's message of "Sat, 6 Mar 2021 23:47:52 -0500") References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wmtvfe6gy.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jim Carpenter wrote: > Tony Aiuto wrote: >> I think that is an artifact of the files being created with the wrong >> names. For example, with tape 169249, after you skip the UFDs, tito >> -t prints >> >> (SYS) .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] >> [...] >> >> All the file names are missing. That seems not right. > > Very not right, because this is what tito -t is giving me: > > (SYS) PIP .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > [...] I have no idea what could make that happen. I made some improvements to tito.c, so please try the latest version. (I also have a dart.c in the works for WAITS tapes. Mostly useful if you're running WAITS and want to transfer files in and out.) From lars at nocrew.org Sun Mar 7 03:25:01 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 09:25:01 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk's message of "Fri, 05 Mar 2021 09:55:04 +0000") References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wczwbe2oi.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> The tapes are now hosted here: http://vtda.org/bits/software/DEC/PDP-10/tymshare/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 7 06:04:33 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 12:04:33 -0000 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001b01d7134a$09b910b0$1d2b3210$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via > cctalk > Sent: 06 March 2021 23:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: 80286 Protected Mode Test > > A stupid idea: > Could the test require, and be failing, access to memory above 1M? > I think that is unlikely because the board comes with 1M onboard and I believe the system is designed to work with just that memory. I can try it though if I can find compatible 30-pin simms (I do have some somewhere). Curious why you think it might require access to memory above 1M though? I am currently working to the hypothesis that it needs the non-volatile memory to work to remember that the reset was part of the POST. The NVR is provided by the RTC element of the 82C206 chip. I may have to get the logic analyser out to see if that is happening or not, but at the moment I still have an intermittent problem getting the board to start at all, I think due to my poor work on the repair wires for the damaged tracks. Regards Rob > > On Sat, 6 Mar 2021, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a DECstation 220 (Olivetti M250E) which is failing POST on a > > "simple test of the 80286 protected mode". It says in a service manual > > I have that for this test the CPU is set in the protected mode, the > > machine status word is checked to see whether it indicates the > > protected mode and then exits protected mode. This test seems to be > > failing. Is there any possible explanation for this other than a > > failed 80286 CPU? Could there be any external reason? This board > > suffered some battery leak damage. Clearly the > > 80286 is working well enough to execute this diagnostic and send some > > text to the screen, so it basically works. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 7 08:40:30 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 09:40:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test Message-ID: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephens > The 286 can exit protected mode with the LOADALL instruction. Really? So why all the hullabaloo about Triple Faults: http://www.rcollins.org/Productivity/TripleFault.html back in the day; and why did IBM set up the keyboard controller so it could send a RESET signal (so people could get out of protected mode)? Or is it that LOADALL (which was also undocumented early on, so maybe that's why the IBM thing) could be used to cause a triple fault? Noel From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 7 10:30:06 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 10:30:06 -0600 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210307020203.3961E2735A@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> <20210307020203.3961E2735A@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210307163022.5EB834E640@mx2.ezwind.net> At 07:55 PM 3/6/2021, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >And I guess I hadn't thought of that case where the file system >named the number of bytes in the file and that the unused ends >of blocks could also contain stuff, too. Is there a name for those bytes? An interesting analysis of "slack bytes" on the IBM DOS 1.0 disks. https://thestarman.pcministry.com/DOS/ibm100/Exam.htm - John From compoobah at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 11:20:14 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 09:20:14 -0800 Subject: PIC programmers? More generic programmer? Port? In-Reply-To: <8379bcb1-9597-3e21-76cb-a2bc45a3244b@sydex.com> References: <19f5a443522c3cc7c4a185a197725999eb51ca48.camel@gmail.com> <20210303184758.D1809281C5E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <8379bcb1-9597-3e21-76cb-a2bc45a3244b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2021-03-06 at 10:13 -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > It should be possible to do the same using a Blue Pill cheapie and > MAX232 level shifter. Still if this is a one-off, I doubt that it > would matter to the user. That's what I had started thinking. Use the STM32 board with the built in 3 UARTS (yes, I know you can bit-bang, but why not use em if you got em?) and one of those cheapie DC-DC switching converter boards plus a MAX232. Don't need to get any expensive programming stuff then (yeah, $65 is a great deal compared to what they were in the '90s, but still it is COVIDtime), and less outlay for supplies. Easy for others to make too. Have a question - for PS/2 the power-on handshake the byte sent is 0xAA per my reference. The keyboard(7) manpage gets a little coy here for the IRIS keyboard, with a unnamed first byte and a second byte that sends keyboard configuration information. Anyone know what that first byte on the IRIS side is? I want to have the adapter do the handshaking if possible to enable KVM use. > > FWIW, I did the PC AT/PS2 to PC XT keyboard converter years ago > using > the cheapest PIC I could find--a 12F629--and I still had program > memory > left over. A cap, a diode and a resistor were the only external > components. > > --Chuck > From compoobah at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 12:07:27 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 10:07:27 -0800 Subject: digital group's Richard Bemis In-Reply-To: References: <199148524.289792.1614831820874.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <199148524.289792.1614831820874@mail.yahoo.com> <953d0456-0de3-cf3a-2541-43213d6a9412@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <6f2eab4cbd5461d03d7c7d58417cf03d89782cff.camel@gmail.com> > > I merely wanted to point out the ambiguity in the original message, > though... > Every time I ran across "DG" in there I had to stop because I mentally filled in "Data General" at first. I have one of their dual 8" floppy drives for a Z80 machine. Be interesting to see the final video. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 13:56:13 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:56:13 -0800 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:25 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Is anyone from this list bidding on this. > If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe > Sold for $4,900. Looks like a couple of low score bidders got in a bidding war and really wanted to win. Nice bit of kit to jumpstart a QBus VAX / PDP collection, but that price seems just a tad bit too much... At least I doubt it will be getting recycled anytime soon. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Mar 7 14:14:23 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 15:14:23 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48fb1405-ccdf-d2b9-6977-f9be141735a0@alembic.crystel.com> *Wow* That's a bit much. On 3/7/2021 2:56 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:25 PM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Is anyone from this list bidding on this. >> If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe >> > > Sold for $4,900. Looks like a couple of low score bidders got in a > bidding war and really wanted to win. > > Nice bit of kit to jumpstart a QBus VAX / PDP collection, but that > price seems just a tad bit too much... > > At least I doubt it will be getting recycled anytime soon. > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sun Mar 7 15:18:59 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 15:18:59 -0600 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/7/2021 1:56 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:25 PM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: >> Is anyone from this list bidding on this. >> If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe >> > Sold for $4,900. Looks like a couple of low score bidders got in a > bidding war and really wanted to win. > > Nice bit of kit to jumpstart a QBus VAX / PDP collection, but that > price seems just a tad bit too much... > > At least I doubt it will be getting recycled anytime soon. I was watching the auction because I thought I might bid.? Silly me. :-) With 15 minutes to go, it was $595.? At 10 minutes it was up around $1200.? The last 2 minutes were something to watch as the price jumped to $2000, then $2400, $2700, $3700 and higher.? The last 15 seconds saw the price soar through the $4000's and nearly make it to $5000.? By then, I was hoping to see it that $5000 mark but it fell just short. -- John H. Reinhardt From drb at msu.edu Sun Mar 7 15:31:48 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 16:31:48 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:56:13 -0800.) References: Message-ID: <20210307213149.2E58E286EBA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Sold for $4,900. Looks like a couple of low score bidders got in a > bidding war and really wanted to win. Must be those deskthority people _really_ wanted those '220 keyboards. :) De From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 7 15:50:45 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 21:50:45 +0000 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: <20210307213149.2E58E286EBA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210307213149.2E58E286EBA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <58a9da16-e22f-03ca-5020-73beb3463d59@ntlworld.com> On 07/03/2021 21:31, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Sold for $4,900. Looks like a couple of low score bidders got in a > > bidding war and really wanted to win. > > Must be those deskthority people _really_ wanted those '220 > keyboards. :) > On UK epay, an LK201 fetches maybe ?25 - ?50. Pity, I have a few that might work once the dirt is? cleaned off ... I'd be willing to trade for a small PDP-11 :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 7 16:00:57 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 17:00:57 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <95B1969B-DBD5-4291-B580-7963BDE2331A@comcast.net> > On Mar 5, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2021-03-06 02:33, Paul Koning wrote: >>> ... > >> I would have liked better comms. The USART has such a tiny FIFO that you can't run it at higher than 9600 bps even with the J-11 CPU. At least not with RSTS; perhaps a lighter weight OS can do better. The printer port is worse, that one can't run DDCMP reliably at more than 4800 bps. I normally run DDCMP on the PC3XC, which is a 4-line serial card that uses two dual UART chips (2681?) with reasonable FIFO. > > Hmm. I'm pretty sure I was running my -380 with the printer port for DDCMP on HECnet for a while, and at 9600 bps. DDCMP runs fairly well on RSTS with the printer port at 9600, but I get some overruns. My guess is that the terminal driver (which is front ending the DDCMP machinery) isn't as lightweight as the equivalent on RSX. Or do you bypass the terminal driver and get a separate comms-specific driver for this case? > But with P/OS, you are not using the console port as such. That's all on the graphics side. > But unless I'm confused, that's the same port. The printer port just can also be the console port, if you short pins 8-9, right? Except it won't fully work the same as the DL11, since interrupts work differently. But polled I/O will work the same. > But I would expect the speed characteristics to be the same for the console as for the printer port. Correct, printer and console are actually the same thing. If you use the console cable (pin 8 connected to 9) then that materializes a DL11-like CSR set at 177560. Yes, with polled I/O such as the ODT microcode uses that works just like a real DL11, but for interrupts it's different. In RSTS, either way that port becomes a terminal port. RSTS does have support for the graphics module, in "glass TTY" mode within the initialization code and full VT220 emulation in RSTS proper. Well, except for blink mode, and no bold in 132 column mode. paul From bqt at softjar.se Sun Mar 7 17:42:33 2021 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 00:42:33 +0100 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: <95B1969B-DBD5-4291-B580-7963BDE2331A@comcast.net> References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> <95B1969B-DBD5-4291-B580-7963BDE2331A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2021-03-07 23:00, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 5, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2021-03-06 02:33, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> ... >> >>> I would have liked better comms. The USART has such a tiny FIFO that you can't run it at higher than 9600 bps even with the J-11 CPU. At least not with RSTS; perhaps a lighter weight OS can do better. The printer port is worse, that one can't run DDCMP reliably at more than 4800 bps. I normally run DDCMP on the PC3XC, which is a 4-line serial card that uses two dual UART chips (2681?) with reasonable FIFO. >> >> Hmm. I'm pretty sure I was running my -380 with the printer port for DDCMP on HECnet for a while, and at 9600 bps. > > DDCMP runs fairly well on RSTS with the printer port at 9600, but I get some overruns. My guess is that the terminal driver (which is front ending the DDCMP machinery) isn't as lightweight as the equivalent on RSX. Or do you bypass the terminal driver and get a separate comms-specific driver for this case? I realized I might have spoken too soon. There is also a comm port, and now I'm unsure if DECnet isn't running over that one actually. Anyway, in RSX, when running DDCMP on the serial port, DECnet has its own device driver. So not talking through any terminal device driver, which have all kind of features and capabilities expected for a terminal line. Same with normal RSX, which is why you have to dedicate the whole controller to either DECnet or TT. You can't mix. >> But with P/OS, you are not using the console port as such. That's all on the graphics side. >> But unless I'm confused, that's the same port. The printer port just can also be the console port, if you short pins 8-9, right? Except it won't fully work the same as the DL11, since interrupts work differently. But polled I/O will work the same. >> But I would expect the speed characteristics to be the same for the console as for the printer port. > > Correct, printer and console are actually the same thing. If you use the console cable (pin 8 connected to 9) then that materializes a DL11-like CSR set at 177560. Yes, with polled I/O such as the ODT microcode uses that works just like a real DL11, but for interrupts it's different. In RSTS, either way that port becomes a terminal port. > > RSTS does have support for the graphics module, in "glass TTY" mode within the initialization code and full VT220 emulation in RSTS proper. Well, except for blink mode, and no bold in 132 column mode. Well, in P/OS you do have the option of also play graphics, and do different resolutions. But the "terminal" handling for it have similar limitations. I think blink isn't working the same as in a VT100, nor is reverse (if I remember correctly). And of course, smooth scrolling do not work you you don't scroll the whole screen, since the hardware isn't capable, and doing it in software would be way too slow. There was even a window system available, which sortof reminds of Windows before 3.1. Played a little with it. It works, but it's a bit limited. But from the pure graphics point of view, it's nice. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 03:16:20 2021 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:16:20 +0100 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 15:41, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > After thinking about disk imaging tools like Greaseweasel, > I started thinking about tools that would grab and examine the unused > portions of disks. > > It's obviously file-system dependent. At one level we know of > "undelete" tools that could piece together recently deleted files > and restore them intact by using abandoned bits of block table info. > Of course some simple file systems can't even permit that. Linux distros come with a standard tool to do some of that, 'testdisk'. From the overview: "Partition scanner and disk recovery tool" It works with : * DOS/Windows FAT12, FAT16 and FAT32 * NTFS ( Windows NT/2K/XP ) * Linux Ext2 and Ext3 * BeFS ( BeOS ) * BSD disklabel ( FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD ) * CramFS (Compressed File System) * HFS and HFS+, Hierarchical File System * JFS, IBM's Journaled File System * Linux Raid * Linux Swap (versions 1 and 2) * LVM and LVM2, Linux Logical Volume Manager * Netware NSS * ReiserFS 3.5 and 3.6 * Sun Solaris i386 disklabel * UFS and UFS2 (Sun/BSD/...) * XFS, SGI's Journaled File System . PhotoRec is file data recovery software designed to recover lost pictures from digital camera memory or even Hard Disks. It has been extended to search also for non audio/video headers. It searches for following files and is able to undelete them: * Sun/NeXT audio data (.au) * RIFF audio/video (.avi/.wav) * BMP bitmap (.bmp) * bzip2 compressed data (.bz2) * Source code written in C (.c) * Canon Raw picture (.crw) * Canon catalog (.ctg) * FAT subdirectory * Microsoft Office Document (.doc) * Nikon dsc (.dsc) * HTML page (.html) * JPEG picture (.jpg) * MOV video (.mov) * MP3 audio (MPEG ADTS, layer III, v1) (.mp3) * Moving Picture Experts Group video (.mpg) * Minolta Raw picture (.mrw) * Olympus Raw Format picture (.orf) * Portable Document Format (.pdf) * Perl script (.pl) * Portable Network Graphics (.png) * Raw Fujifilm picture (.raf) * Contax picture (.raw) * Rollei picture (.rdc) * Rich Text Format (.rtf) * Shell script (.sh) * Tar archive (.tar ) * Tag Image File Format (.tiff) * Microsoft ASF (.wma) * Sigma/Foveon X3 raw picture (.x3f) * zip archive (.zip) I haven't used the tool recently, but some ten-fifteen years ago there was for some reason much more disk trouble and I used the tool effectively to recover lost data and partitions. From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Mar 8 06:09:19 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 07:09:19 -0500 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 2021-03-05 09:41, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > This situation makes me hesitant to release disk images from the past. > It's one thing to do it with disks that were mine and to take responsibility > for my risk; it's another to release disks once owned and used by others. > Do the unused sectors contain their love letters from 1983? > > Or if I want to release disk images that contain known personal files, > how will I image, then remove specific files, then zero unused blocks > if I don't want to alter the original media? I started to do something in this direction, using a lot of virtual machines ... Before I make backups, I write a file with zero content, until it fills up the filesystems (something like dd if=/dev/zero of=/ttt.tmp ; rm ttt.tmp) Two benefits: a.) there shouldn't be any hidden stuff anymore b.) the file containers can be zipped nicely, as all unused stuff is zero Hope it helps ... From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Mar 8 06:24:46 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 07:24:46 -0500 Subject: Vax/pdp on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <848bccff-6f0d-10ee-1b96-244496d0d2fe@e-bbes.com> On 2021-03-07 14:56, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:25 PM Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Is anyone from this list bidding on this. >> If so i?ll back out. Just don?t want it to be ?recycled ? and i have room for it. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-BA23-Lot-Micro-PDP-11-73-VAXstation-3200-x2-VT220-x2-Extras-Docs/224368924502?hash=item343d6e1756:g:zp8AAOSwvWNgO9qe >> > > Sold for $4,900. Looks like a couple of low score bidders got in a > bidding war and really wanted to win. at least three people were thinking it is worth more than 2700 ... WOW. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 08:40:57 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 09:40:57 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> <95B1969B-DBD5-4291-B580-7963BDE2331A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6B0724BE-F877-4272-8680-973297CEABF9@comcast.net> > On Mar 7, 2021, at 6:42 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > On 2021-03-07 23:00, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Mar 5, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> On 2021-03-06 02:33, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>> ... >>> >>>> I would have liked better comms. The USART has such a tiny FIFO that you can't run it at higher than 9600 bps even with the J-11 CPU. At least not with RSTS; perhaps a lighter weight OS can do better. The printer port is worse, that one can't run DDCMP reliably at more than 4800 bps. I normally run DDCMP on the PC3XC, which is a 4-line serial card that uses two dual UART chips (2681?) with reasonable FIFO. >>> >>> Hmm. I'm pretty sure I was running my -380 with the printer port for DDCMP on HECnet for a while, and at 9600 bps. >> DDCMP runs fairly well on RSTS with the printer port at 9600, but I get some overruns. My guess is that the terminal driver (which is front ending the DDCMP machinery) isn't as lightweight as the equivalent on RSX. Or do you bypass the terminal driver and get a separate comms-specific driver for this case? > > I realized I might have spoken too soon. There is also a comm port, and now I'm unsure if DECnet isn't running over that one actually. That would make a difference. The printer port is a 2661 on the Pro 350, or the gate array equivalent on the Pro 380. Either way, it's a UART without a FIFO. The comm port is an 8274, which has a 3 byte FIFO. So does the 2681 dual UART, which is what the 4 port comm card uses. In my tests, that FIFO makes the difference between running reliably at 9600 baud, and getting frequent overrun errors. > Anyway, in RSX, when running DDCMP on the serial port, DECnet has its own device driver. So not talking through any terminal device driver, which have all kind of features and capabilities expected for a terminal line. > > Same with normal RSX, which is why you have to dedicate the whole controller to either DECnet or TT. You can't mix. That's probably more efficient. In RSTS I added the DDCMP support as an "auxiliary" function attached to the terminal driver, so the regular terminal driver does the device control and then diverts the data stream to/from the DDCMP driver. It's a bit like how Linux does these things, I forgot what term they use. In fact, it would be possible to add DDCMP support to Linux in the same way if someone wants to try that... :-) >>> But with P/OS, you are not using the console port as such. That's all on the graphics side. >>> But unless I'm confused, that's the same port. The printer port just can also be the console port, if you short pins 8-9, right? Except it won't fully work the same as the DL11, since interrupts work differently. But polled I/O will work the same. >>> But I would expect the speed characteristics to be the same for the console as for the printer port. >> Correct, printer and console are actually the same thing. If you use the console cable (pin 8 connected to 9) then that materializes a DL11-like CSR set at 177560. Yes, with polled I/O such as the ODT microcode uses that works just like a real DL11, but for interrupts it's different. In RSTS, either way that port becomes a terminal port. >> RSTS does have support for the graphics module, in "glass TTY" mode within the initialization code and full VT220 emulation in RSTS proper. Well, except for blink mode, and no bold in 132 column mode. > > Well, in P/OS you do have the option of also play graphics, and do different resolutions. But the "terminal" handling for it have similar limitations. I think blink isn't working the same as in a VT100, nor is reverse (if I remember correctly). And of course, smooth scrolling do not work you you don't scroll the whole screen, since the hardware isn't capable, and doing it in software would be way too slow. Right, I forgot about partial smooth scroll. Blink could be done fairly easily with EBO through the color lookup table; I haven't bothered doing that. Same for bold. Reverse wasn't a problem in my experience. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 08:55:03 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 09:55:03 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <24E14780-7C4A-4368-BDDF-1708BDECB71D@comcast.net> > On Mar 5, 2021, at 9:15 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >>> Can't run split I/D space on any version of P/OS. Neither does it support supervisor mode. Also, the J11 on the Pro-380 is running a bit on the slow side. Rather sad, but I guess they didn't want to improve the support chips on the Pro, which limited speed, and they didn't want to start having Pro software that didn't run on all models, which prevented the I/D space and supervisor mode. > > That sucks. I sometimes wonder how hard it would be to code the hard disk driver, if it doesn't do DMA it's probably simple as dirt to be honest. Any idea if it worked like MCSP or was it totally off the wall? The Pro hard disk driver is indeed pretty simple. Nothing like DDCMP; it's more like an old style disk controller with CSRs to tell the device what to do. Basically, you convert linear sector number to cylinder/track/sector (which requires knowing the specific drive type), then load that into the CSRs along with a command. Then for a write operation you write the words of data, 256 of them, to the data buffer CSR. For a read, you wait for the data ready interrupt, then read the data one word at a time from that same CSR. Repeat for the next sector. The floppy is similar except that the transfer is byte-at-a-time, and the address mapping is more complicated because the software has to deal with the sector interleave, track skew, and funny cylinder numbering. An entirely different odd design is the Pro Ethernet card, which uses the evil 82568 Ethernet chip. That does DMA -- into a 64kW memory that's part of the DECNA card. So the OS would allocate Ethernet buffers to that memory space and can then do DMA. That's not too bad, and 64kW is a decent amount of memory. The real problem is that the 82568 is by far the worst DMA engine design ever created. It actually implements design errors that were well understood and well documented (and solved) 20 years earlier, but such considerations never stopped Intel. >> The most embarassing blunder with the Pro is that the bus supports DMA, but no I/O cards use it. Even though a bunch of them should have -- hard disk controller obviously, network adapter possibly as well. > > I think they used an intel chipset to handle the CTI bus, so the normal Q-Bus DMA methods just doesn't work. Hm. Wonder if the problem is they just didn't build the driver to support DMA, or if they found some problem that made DMA just not work at all.... The documentation clearly describes DMA operation of the CT bus on both 350 and 380 (see the Technical Manual on Bitsavers). I don't know why it was never used, I never heard any rumors about it. I don't believe the bus control uses Intel chips. The interrupt controller does, yes, which is another bad design decision but one that can be worked around adequately. The Pro 380 implements only a subset of the full interrupt controller, the parts that aren't totally absurd. > The 380 *was* a mess, mine is a formidable bit of kit with DECNA and everything, but without I/D space it's really not too very useful as more than a really nice VT terminal. I/D space is just an OS issue; it works fine in the 380. As for a VT terminal, it's actually reasonably good at that but not great; the video can't quite do the full VT220 video. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 08:58:24 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 09:58:24 -0500 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 5, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2021-03-06 02:33, Paul Koning wrote: > ... >> The explanation I heard for the slow J-11 clock is that the original J-11 spec called for it to operate at 20 MHz. When Harris failed to deliver and the max useable clock speed ended up to be 18 MHz, most designs had no trouble. But the Pro support chips were designed to run synchronous with the CPU clock and for various other reasons needed a clock frequency that's a multiple of 10 MHz, so when 20 MHz was ruled out that left 10 MHz as the only alternative. > > I do think it sounds weird that the support chips would require a clock that is a multiple of 10 MHz. But I wouldn't know for sure. > Somewhere else I read/heard that they didn't work reliable above 10 MHz, but for the F11 that was ok. When the -380 came, they just reused those support chips. The 380 has an entirely different core design. Instead of lots of discrete support chips including a pile of screwball Intel chips, it uses a pair of gate arrays that incorporate all those functions. Or more precisely, the subset that the OS actually needs. This is really obvious when you compare the 350 and 380 documentation for the interrupt controllers -- the 350 uses Intel chips, the 380 only implements a tiny subset of what those chips do. I'm guessing here, but a possible reason for the 10 MHz issue is if the support chips use that clock, and use a synchronous design for the clock boundary crossing rather than an asynchronous design. It's entirely possible to design a chip that has an outside interface with an unrelated clock frequency, but it's harder to do and harder to get right. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 8 09:19:27 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 07:19:27 -0800 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <35608111-f6c1-7685-e909-0ef1b3a53d9e@bitsavers.org> References: <1a106b64-15d6-b0ae-05d4-18ff1a53a164@comcast.net> <35608111-f6c1-7685-e909-0ef1b3a53d9e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3ef752b1-eed5-46d2-0a01-56ff0f9acbed@bitsavers.org> On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > >> ?? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this month > I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email would be helpful > this is way more than I can afford as well. He listed a 11D utilities source disk over the weekend, so that is on its way now too. I asked and he says he doesn't have any more 'red labeled' DEC disk packs. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 8 09:38:31 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 09:38:31 -0600 Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210308153909.E49CF2735B@mx1.ezwind.net> At 03:16 AM 3/8/2021, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: >Linux distros come with a standard tool to do some of that, >'testdisk'. From the overview: I'm familiar with the various undelete tools for Windows and Linux. Such tools may not exist or make sense for older file systems. Entire files would be great to find, but I suspect interesting fragments may be more likely. Running a Windows-based tool like Recuva on a hard drive leads to such a firehose of fragments if you choose the deep scan that examines all unused blocks. I've only tried the free version. Does the pro version give you a way to exclude all the dozens of OS file types that are probably not the user-made files that you want? And for the archaic disk formats, it would be good to have platform-specific methods of identifying fragments to guess their file type beyond executable and ASCII. Older run-length compression image formats may be more possible to recover than today's block-compressed images. - John From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 10:15:55 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:15:55 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Jim Carpenter wrote: > On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:07 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk > wrote: > > I think that is an artifact of the files being created with the wrong > names. > > For example, with tape 169249, after you skip the UFDs, tito -t prints > > > > (SYS) .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > > (SYS) .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] > > (SYS) .SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] > > (SYS) .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] > > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > > > All the file names are missing. That seems not right. > > Very not right, because this is what tito -t is giving me: > > (SYS) PIP .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > (SYS) PIP .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] > (SYS) LOGINN.SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] > (SYS) COBOL .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] > (SYS) BINCON.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > (SYS) VPDATA.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > Those are the first 6 after the UFDs, and extensions and > date/timestamps match yours. I don't have any, at least on 169249, > missing the first part of the file name. > > Jim > Well. I'm stumped right now. I verified the tape checksum again, and even got a fresh copy from http://vtda.org/bits/software/DEC/PDP-10/tymshare/. That is not the problem. I'm building tito on a generic Debian linux (x86_64, debian 4.19, gcc 8.3.0) so I doubt this is a portability problem. I'll try again next weekend. From bqt at softjar.se Mon Mar 8 11:06:18 2021 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:06:18 +0100 Subject: [simh] RSTS processor identification In-Reply-To: <6B0724BE-F877-4272-8680-973297CEABF9@comcast.net> References: <91c2a1b4-bde4-bfcc-9419-b031cef7b97d@softjar.se> <61712aa6-1761-7b46-a32f-a4bc63457060@softjar.se> <2B80A331-9D29-4FAF-B989-522C74BDCDE9@comcast.net> <95B1969B-DBD5-4291-B580-7963BDE2331A@comcast.net> <6B0724BE-F877-4272-8680-973297CEABF9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2021-03-08 15:40, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 7, 2021, at 6:42 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2021-03-07 23:00, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Mar 5, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2021-03-06 02:33, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> ... >>>> >> Anyway, in RSX, when running DDCMP on the serial port, DECnet has its own device driver. So not talking through any terminal device driver, which have all kind of features and capabilities expected for a terminal line. >> >> Same with normal RSX, which is why you have to dedicate the whole controller to either DECnet or TT. You can't mix. > > That's probably more efficient. In RSTS I added the DDCMP support as an "auxiliary" function attached to the terminal driver, so the regular terminal driver does the device control and then diverts the data stream to/from the DDCMP driver. It's a bit like how Linux does these things, I forgot what term they use. In fact, it would be possible to add DDCMP support to Linux in the same way if someone wants to try that... :-) Definitely more efficient from a software point of view. Having two DHV11 in the machine, while only using 1 port on one of them, and couple on the other, might be considered less efficient from another point of view. ;-) You could, of course, have done it through the terminal driver in RSX, if you really wanted to. But I suspect they just felt the overhead wasn't attractive. I did SLIP in my TCP/IP going through the normal terminal driver. >>>> But with P/OS, you are not using the console port as such. That's all on the graphics side. >>>> But unless I'm confused, that's the same port. The printer port just can also be the console port, if you short pins 8-9, right? Except it won't fully work the same as the DL11, since interrupts work differently. But polled I/O will work the same. >>>> But I would expect the speed characteristics to be the same for the console as for the printer port. >>> Correct, printer and console are actually the same thing. If you use the console cable (pin 8 connected to 9) then that materializes a DL11-like CSR set at 177560. Yes, with polled I/O such as the ODT microcode uses that works just like a real DL11, but for interrupts it's different. In RSTS, either way that port becomes a terminal port. >>> RSTS does have support for the graphics module, in "glass TTY" mode within the initialization code and full VT220 emulation in RSTS proper. Well, except for blink mode, and no bold in 132 column mode. >> >> Well, in P/OS you do have the option of also play graphics, and do different resolutions. But the "terminal" handling for it have similar limitations. I think blink isn't working the same as in a VT100, nor is reverse (if I remember correctly). And of course, smooth scrolling do not work you you don't scroll the whole screen, since the hardware isn't capable, and doing it in software would be way too slow. > > Right, I forgot about partial smooth scroll. Blink could be done fairly easily with EBO through the color lookup table; I haven't bothered doing that. Same for bold. Reverse wasn't a problem in my experience. That jogged my brain. It wasn't reverse that was a problem. Bold was where it could be a bit funny. Or possibly bold in combination with something (reverse?). The Pro would really have benefited from some hardware acceleration of the graphics. The PDP-11 wasn't exactly a speed daemon when it came to moving those pixels around... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From lee.gleason at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 11:42:42 2021 From: lee.gleason at comcast.net (Lee Gleason) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:42:42 -0600 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? Message-ID: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> On 3/3/21 11:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>/On 3/3/21 10:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: />>//>>>/?? The auction starts at? more than I have in my computer budget this month />>/I went ahead and bought these, but paypal contributions to my email would be helpful />>/this is way more than I can afford as well. / >He listed a 11D utilities source disk over the weekend, so that is on its way now too. >I asked and he says he doesn't have any more 'red labeled' DEC disk packs. Did you notice this auction? Looks like not all of his RSX11D stuff is red labelled. This one looks like it might hold a running system. https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-RK05-RSX-11D-64K-DEC-Digital-PDP/353410808160?hash=item5248ecf960:g:IwQAAOSwge9gQ7Zh -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason at comcast.net From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 8 12:46:23 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:46:23 -0800 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/8/21 9:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > ? Did you notice this auction? Looks like not all of his RSX11D stuff is red labelled. This one looks like it might hold a running system. yes, I saw it. i'm limiting myself to the source packs, i'm worried enough that those might not be readable at $125 a pop From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Mar 8 13:03:29 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:03:29 -0800 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0C964379-E8B0-4757-87A9-2996CD5C405C@avanthar.com> On Mar 8, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/8/21 9:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > >> Did you notice this auction? Looks like not all of his RSX11D stuff is red labelled. This one looks like it might hold a running system. > > yes, I saw it. > i'm limiting myself to the source packs, i'm worried enough that those might not be readable at $125 a pop What?s the likelihood of them being readable? I?m really curious about the ?Games? RK05, but can?t read RK05?s. At this point, I wouldn?t guarantee I can still read RL01/RL02 packs, as it?s been 20+ years since those drives were hooked up. :-( Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 8 13:28:28 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:28:28 -0800 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <0C964379-E8B0-4757-87A9-2996CD5C405C@avanthar.com> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <0C964379-E8B0-4757-87A9-2996CD5C405C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <139cae8f-44f5-4ab1-6e05-4036d7757945@bitsavers.org> On 3/8/21 11:03 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > What?s the likelihood of them being readable? There shouldn't be any problems if they haven't been mishandled. I've probably read 100 packs of similar age in the last 20 years. The only thing that deteriorates is the ring foam. Like I said, I need to pop open the one that has arrived to evaluate their condition From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 8 13:56:46 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:56:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spelunking the places where files are not In-Reply-To: <20210308153909.E49CF2735B@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210305144126.75B024E639@mx2.ezwind.net> <20210308153909.E49CF2735B@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 2021, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > I'm familiar with the various undelete tools for Windows and Linux. > Such tools may not exist or make sense for older file systems. Windows/MS-DOS was certainly not unique nor original in marking file primary directory entries (FPDE) as deleted, without removing all traces. CP/M, for instance maintains most of the FPDE. Look in the directory sectors for entries starting with 00 or E5. UCSD P-System is easy, until the disk has been CRUNCH'ed. > Entire files would be great to find, but I suspect interesting > fragments may be more likely. AS Chuck pointed out, when a file does not fill the remaining space in the last block that is allocated to it, that space MIGHT contaian residual content from previous use. Yes, the OS will usually write complete sectors (may or may not contain unused portion of sector buffer content!), and overwrite the rest of the last SECTOR, but it is unlikely to clear out the unused sectors in that last block. > Running a Windows-based tool like Recuva on a hard drive leads > to such a firehose of fragments if you choose the deep scan that > examines all unused blocks. I've only tried the free version. > Does the pro version give you a way to exclude all the dozens > of OS file types that are probably not the user-made files > that you want? I'd recommend a two stage process. Make files out of all of those fragments. THEN, use other tools to select which of those fragments contain the type of content that you are looking for. On something as small as a floppy, of course, a human is cost effective. > And for the archaic disk formats, it would be good to have > platform-specific methods of identifying fragments to guess > their file type beyond executable and ASCII. Older run-length > compression image formats may be more possible to recover than > today's block-compressed images. PROJECT: Create a program that will take a list of files, and partial files, and for each one, identify the file type, and attempt to display the content. There are thousands of file formats to implement. Knowledge of those file formats, and especially their headers, is essential. Obviously, file headers and beginnings of files may be easier to identify than random pieces from the middle. For example, in MS-DOS/Windoze, a file that starts with "MZ" (Mark Zbikowski) is almost always an .EXE file. Fortunately, most of the older file formats were simpler, and word processing files had lots of text strings in them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 8 14:42:13 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:42:13 -0500 Subject: RSX11D disks on EBAY- anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <0C964379-E8B0-4757-87A9-2996CD5C405C@avanthar.com> References: <1622fb84-66a9-1f72-4f23-60046f561868@comcast.net> <0C964379-E8B0-4757-87A9-2996CD5C405C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <10b5a907-7172-6641-9e0f-6e23ee57bfef@alembic.crystel.com> RL01/02 units are pretty solid, the one thing to watch out for is make sure the filter isn't plugged. Pull off the front, remove the filter, and check it (and to make sure no mice things around it). If the filter is plugged the heads can't get enough air to fly. Had this happen, annoying. On 3/8/2021 2:03 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Mar 8, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/8/21 9:42 AM, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Did you notice this auction? Looks like not all of his RSX11D stuff is red labelled. This one looks like it might hold a running system. >> >> yes, I saw it. >> i'm limiting myself to the source packs, i'm worried enough that those might not be readable at $125 a pop > > What?s the likelihood of them being readable? I?m really curious about the ?Games? RK05, but can?t read RK05?s. At this point, I wouldn?t guarantee I can still read RL01/RL02 packs, as it?s been 20+ years since those drives were hooked up. :-( > > Zane > > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Mar 8 16:43:22 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:43:22 -0700 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 9:16 AM Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Jim Carpenter > wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:07 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk > > wrote: > > > I think that is an artifact of the files being created with the wrong > > names. > > > For example, with tape 169249, after you skip the UFDs, tito -t prints > > > > > > (SYS) .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > > > (SYS) .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] > > > (SYS) .SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] > > > (SYS) .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] > > > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > > > > > All the file names are missing. That seems not right. > > > > Very not right, because this is what tito -t is giving me: > > > > (SYS) PIP .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > > (SYS) PIP .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] > > (SYS) LOGINN.SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] > > (SYS) COBOL .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] > > (SYS) BINCON.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > (SYS) VPDATA.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > > > > Those are the first 6 after the UFDs, and extensions and > > date/timestamps match yours. I don't have any, at least on 169249, > > missing the first part of the file name. > > > > Jim > > > > Well. I'm stumped right now. I verified the tape checksum again, and even > got a fresh copy from http://vtda.org/bits/software/DEC/PDP-10/tymshare/. > That is not the problem. > > I'm building tito on a generic Debian linux (x86_64, debian 4.19, gcc > 8.3.0) so I doubt this is a portability problem. I'll try again next > weekend. > Compile -O0? Maybe there's some UB behavior that's screwing you up... Warner From jim at deitygraveyard.com Mon Mar 8 17:22:57 2021 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:22:57 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 11:16 AM Tony Aiuto wrote: > I'm building tito on a generic Debian linux (x86_64, debian 4.19, gcc 8.3.0) so I doubt this is a portability problem. I'll try again next weekend. Linux jim-xubuntu 5.8.0-44-generic #50-Ubuntu SMP Tue Feb 9 06:29:41 UTC 2021 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux gcc (Ubuntu 10.2.0-13ubuntu1) 10.2.0 If it makes you feel any better, I can't figure out how to get back10 to extract all files. :) I have to give the file names to extract. Jim From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Mar 8 17:40:29 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 23:40:29 +0000 (WET) Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <01RWFZODUJVK8ZHSNO@beyondthepale.ie> Tony Aiuto wrote: > On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Jim Carpenter wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:07 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk >> wrote: >> > I think that is an artifact of the files being created with the wrong >> names. >> > For example, with tape 169249, after you skip the UFDs, tito -t prints >> > >> > (SYS) .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] >> > (SYS) .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] >> > (SYS) .SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] >> > (SYS) .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] >> > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] >> > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] >> > >> > All the file names are missing. That seems not right. >> >> Very not right, because this is what tito -t is giving me: >> >> (SYS) PIP .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] >> (SYS) PIP .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] >> (SYS) LOGINN.SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] >> (SYS) COBOL .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] >> (SYS) BINCON.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] >> (SYS) VPDATA.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] >> >> Those are the first 6 after the UFDs, and extensions and >> date/timestamps match yours. I don't have any, at least on 169249, >> missing the first part of the file name. >> >> Jim >> > > Well. I'm stumped right now. I verified the tape checksum again, and even > got a fresh copy from http://vtda.org/bits/software/DEC/PDP-10/tymshare/. > That is not the problem. > > I'm building tito on a generic Debian linux (x86_64, debian 4.19, gcc > 8.3.0) so I doubt this is a portability problem. I'll try again next > weekend. > Out of curiosity, I tried building tito on VMS (with DECC V7.3-009 on an Alphaserver 800). I had some errors compiling memory.c but it appears the code involved does not get called by tito so this didn't cause me any problems. I was able to list the contents of tape 169249 with the resulting executable and the output I got matched the "right" output above exactly. I didn't see anything that looked wrong elsewhere in the file listing either. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 19:55:28 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 20:55:28 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: <01RWFZODUJVK8ZHSNO@beyondthepale.ie> References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <01RWFZODUJVK8ZHSNO@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: It's a buffer overrun. sixbit_to_ascii writes 7 bytes. The extension was declared as 4. Changing to 7 is required. I'm not sure if that is the only fix yet. I have not had time for a detailed inspection. - char ext[4]; + char ext[7]; On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 6:57 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Tony Aiuto wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Jim Carpenter > wrote: > >> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 8:07 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > I think that is an artifact of the files being created with the wrong > >> names. > >> > For example, with tape 169249, after you skip the UFDs, tito -t prints > >> > > >> > (SYS) .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > >> > (SYS) .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] > >> > (SYS) .SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] > >> > (SYS) .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] > >> > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > >> > (SYS) .SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > >> > > >> > All the file names are missing. That seems not right. > >> > >> Very not right, because this is what tito -t is giving me: > >> > >> (SYS) PIP .SHR 1977-01-26 22:22 [1,4] > >> (SYS) PIP .LOW 1977-01-26 22:23 [1,4] > >> (SYS) LOGINN.SHR 1986-08-19 03:53 [1,4] > >> (SYS) COBOL .LOW 1975-10-24 14:52 [1,4] > >> (SYS) BINCON.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > >> (SYS) VPDATA.SAV 1964-01-02 00:01 [1,4] > >> > >> Those are the first 6 after the UFDs, and extensions and > >> date/timestamps match yours. I don't have any, at least on 169249, > >> missing the first part of the file name. > >> > >> Jim > >> > > > > Well. I'm stumped right now. I verified the tape checksum again, and > even > > got a fresh copy from http://vtda.org/bits/software/DEC/PDP-10/tymshare/ > . > > That is not the problem. > > > > I'm building tito on a generic Debian linux (x86_64, debian 4.19, gcc > > 8.3.0) so I doubt this is a portability problem. I'll try again next > > weekend. > > > > Out of curiosity, I tried building tito on VMS (with DECC V7.3-009 on an > Alphaserver 800). I had some errors compiling memory.c but it appears > the code involved does not get called by tito so this didn't cause me > any problems. I was able to list the contents of tape 169249 with the > resulting executable and the output I got matched the "right" output > above exactly. I didn't see anything that looked wrong elsewhere in the > file listing either. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 20:30:12 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:30:12 -0500 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <01RWFZODUJVK8ZHSNO@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: I sent a PR. https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/pdp10-its-disassembler/pull/71 > From phil at ultimate.com Mon Mar 8 21:46:54 2021 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 22:46:54 -0500 Subject: From SIMH list: Whirlwind software recovery Message-ID: <202103090346.1293ksDZ056654@ultimate.com> > From: "Christian Brunschen" > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:45:11 +0000 > Subject: Re: [simh] recovering software for the MIT Whirlwind > To: simh at groups.io > > https://www.historia-mollimercium.com/whirlwind/ww-page.html > https://www.historia-mollimercium.com/whirlwind/Whirlwind-Software-Recovery-Project-v6d.pdf > ? > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 21:41, "Nelson H. F. Beebe" > wrote: > > > The latest issue of IEEE Annals of the History of Computing has an > > article that may be of interest to some list members: > > > > G. C. Fedorkow > > Recovering Software for the Whirlwind Computer > > IEEE Annals of the History of Computing 43(1) Jan/Mar 2021 pp. > > 38--59 > > https://doi.org/10.1109/MAHC.2020.3048815 From lars at nocrew.org Mon Mar 8 23:58:14 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2021 05:58:14 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: (Jim Carpenter via cctalk's message of "Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:22:57 -0500") References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7w7dmgamx5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jim Carpenter wrote: > If it makes you feel any better, I can't figure out how to get back10 > to extract all files. :) I have to give the file names to extract. It does have some quirk. The names are matched exactly, or as regexp. I think an '' empty string works, or maybe '.*'. And it's best to start in an empty directory From lars at nocrew.org Tue Mar 9 00:06:36 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2021 06:06:36 +0000 Subject: Tymshare PDP-10 tapes In-Reply-To: (Tony Aiuto via cctalk's message of "Mon, 8 Mar 2021 20:55:28 -0500") References: <7wmtvihqmf.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w5z25h2f8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wv9a4g4al.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <01RWFZODUJVK8ZHSNO@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <7w35x4amj7.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Tony Aiuto wrote: > It's a buffer overrun. sixbit_to_ascii writes 7 bytes. The extension was > declared as 4. Changing to 7 is required. Thanks, good catch! From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Mar 9 02:03:35 2021 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 08:03:35 +0000 Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Gary, I don't know if you're in Europe or elsewhere. I'm in the Netherlands, and I could do that free of charge. I'd also make a video recording of the process for your sons education. Camiel ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Gary Dye via cctech Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 11:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed Hi folks. I wrote a basketball program in Basic over 40 years ago in high school. I printed the 13 pages of code, and produced a roll of paper punch tape of the code, but the 13 pages were destroyed, leaving me with only the paper tape. My 14-year-old son was pretty fascinated to see the roll of computer punch tape -- paper with holes in it! -- that we used to store files in the old days. And that we didn't have computer screens, but only a teletype element that printed -- one letter at a time -- the back-and-forth information between the timeshare computer and the teletype (output). This paper punch tape is the Basic program that I wrote in high school that played a random basketball game (as called by Bill Schonely, radio voice of the Portland Trailblazers). I'm trying to find someone to run it through a tape reader so that I can retrieve the code and play the game again. I'm hoping to explain the code to Owen so that he might understand the power of coding and get interested in coding. Is there anyone out there that I can send my roll of paper tape to such that the code can be restored? I could pay some compensation for your troubles. Much appreciated, Gary This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Mar 9 02:41:31 2021 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 00:41:31 -0800 Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <600eb239-074a-68fb-9223-4a49b81166df@frontier.com> I am a cctalk subscriber, but I don't seem to be getting messages reliably any more. So, I'm replying to the reply, as I never got the original query. Anyway Gary, I'm in Beaverton OR, USA and so quite possibly local, and I can read your paper tape easily enough. Email or a thumb drive or whatever so you can print out the result. I don't think my Teletype is in good enough shape at the moment to make you a period correct print-out, though. Vince On 3/9/2021 12:03 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > Gary, > > I don't know if you're in Europe or elsewhere. I'm in the Netherlands, and I could do that free of charge. I'd also make a video recording of the process for your sons education. > > Camiel > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of Gary Dye via cctech > Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 11:30 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed > > Hi folks. I wrote a basketball program in Basic over 40 years ago in high school. I printed the 13 pages of code, and produced a roll of paper punch tape of the code, but the 13 pages were destroyed, leaving me with only the paper tape. My 14-year-old son was pretty fascinated to see the roll of computer punch tape -- paper with holes in it! -- that we used to store files in the old days. And that we didn't have computer screens, but only a teletype element that printed -- one letter at a time -- the back-and-forth information between the timeshare computer and the teletype (output). This paper punch tape is the Basic program that I wrote in high school that played a random basketball game (as called by Bill Schonely, radio voice of the Portland Trailblazers). I'm trying to find someone to run it through a tape reader so that I can retrieve the code and play the game again. I'm hoping to explain the code to Owen so that he might understand the power of coding and get interested in coding. > > Is there anyone out there that I can send my roll of paper tape to such that the code can be restored? I could pay some compensation for your troubles. > > Much appreciated, > > Gary > > This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Mar 9 03:19:28 2021 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 10:19:28 +0100 Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed In-Reply-To: <600eb239-074a-68fb-9223-4a49b81166df@frontier.com> References: <600eb239-074a-68fb-9223-4a49b81166df@frontier.com> Message-ID: <1acb0a21-32d1-2eb4-7923-fc18903f2f38@ljw.me.uk> Sorry Vince & Gary, it was my fault that the original cctalk posting was deleted amongst the spam. It did get to cctech which is where Camiel saw it. But before I could ask Gary to re-post, Camiel had replied so I figured that everyone would get to see that. Lawrence On 9/03/21 9:41 am, Vincent Slyngstad via cctech wrote: > I am a cctalk subscriber, but I don't seem to be getting messages > reliably any more.? So, I'm replying to the reply, as I never got the > original query. > > Anyway Gary, I'm in Beaverton OR, USA and so quite possibly local, and > I can read your paper tape easily enough.? Email or a thumb drive or > whatever so you can print out the result. > > I don't think my Teletype is in good enough shape at the moment to > make you a period correct print-out, though. > > ????Vince > > On 3/9/2021 12:03 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: >> Gary, >> >> I don't know if you're in Europe or elsewhere. I'm in the >> Netherlands, and I could do that free of charge. I'd also make a >> video recording of the process for your sons education. >> >> Camiel >> ________________________________ >> From: cctech on behalf of Gary Dye >> via cctech >> Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 11:30 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape >> reader and printed >> >> Hi folks.? I wrote a basketball program in Basic over 40 years ago in >> high school.? I printed the 13 pages of code, and produced a roll of >> paper punch tape of the code, but the 13 pages were destroyed, >> leaving me with only the paper tape.? My 14-year-old son was pretty >> fascinated to see the roll of computer punch tape -- paper with holes >> in it! -- that we used to store files in the old days. And that we >> didn't have computer screens, but only a teletype element that >> printed -- one letter at a time -- the back-and-forth information >> between the timeshare computer and the teletype (output). This paper >> punch tape is the Basic program that I wrote in high school that >> played a random basketball game (as called by Bill Schonely, radio >> voice of the Portland Trailblazers). I'm trying to find someone to >> run it through a tape reader so that I can retrieve the code and play >> the game again.? I'm hoping to explain the code to Owen so that he >> might understand the power of coding and get interested in coding. >> >> Is there anyone out there that I can send my roll of paper tape to >> such that the code can be restored?? I could pay some compensation >> for your troubles. >> >> Much appreciated, >> >> Gary >> >> This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, >> confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally >> protected information. The information is intended to be for the use >> of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the >> intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), >> please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message >> and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or >> other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or >> entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 9 04:19:22 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:19:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed In-Reply-To: <600eb239-074a-68fb-9223-4a49b81166df@frontier.com> References: <600eb239-074a-68fb-9223-4a49b81166df@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2021, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I am a cctalk subscriber, but I don't seem to be getting messages reliably > any more. So, I'm replying to the reply, as I never got the original query. Interesting, I did not get the original message either... Christian From marvin at west.net Tue Mar 9 15:08:16 2021 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:08:16 -0800 Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed Message-ID: <93ab3c6f-3d59-6f21-6242-5e7316e132cc@west.net> FWIW, I went back to the CCTALK archives and could not find the original message either. Being curious, I went back to the CCTALK archives and there it was. > Hi folks. I wrote a basketball program in Basic over 40 years ago in high school. I printed the 13 pages of code, and produced a roll of paper punch tape of the code, but the 13 pages were destroyed, leaving me with only the paper tape. My 14-year-old son was pretty fascinated to see the roll of computer punch tape -- paper with holes in it! -- that we used to store files in the old days. And that we didn't have computer screens, but only a teletype element that printed -- one letter at a time -- the back-and-forth information between the timeshare computer and the teletype (output). This paper punch tape is the Basic program that I wrote in high school that played a random basketball game (as called by Bill Schonely, radio voice of the Portland Trailblazers). I'm trying to find someone to run it through a tape reader so that I can retrieve the code and play the game again. I'm hoping to explain the code to Owen so that he might understand the power of coding and get interested in coding. > > Is there anyone out there that I can send my roll of paper tape to such that the code can be restored? I could pay some compensation for your troubles. > > Much appreciated, > > Gary From marvin at west.net Tue Mar 9 15:13:44 2021 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:13:44 -0800 Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed Message-ID: <5721efec-ed39-ba14-4eb8-71d7be0f4c6f@west.net> OOPS on my last response... I should have said I found the original on the CCTECH archive. Hope there was no confusion there! From garyldye at hotmail.com Tue Mar 9 13:46:11 2021 From: garyldye at hotmail.com (Gary Dye) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 19:46:11 +0000 Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: I'm in the US, and have a couple people already volunteering their help. Thanks, anyway. Gary Gary ________________________________ From: Camiel Vanderhoeven Sent: Tuesday, March 9, 2021 12:03:35 AM To: Gary Dye ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed Gary, I don't know if you're in Europe or elsewhere. I'm in the Netherlands, and I could do that free of charge. I'd also make a video recording of the process for your sons education. Camiel ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Gary Dye via cctech Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 11:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed Hi folks. I wrote a basketball program in Basic over 40 years ago in high school. I printed the 13 pages of code, and produced a roll of paper punch tape of the code, but the 13 pages were destroyed, leaving me with only the paper tape. My 14-year-old son was pretty fascinated to see the roll of computer punch tape -- paper with holes in it! -- that we used to store files in the old days. And that we didn't have computer screens, but only a teletype element that printed -- one letter at a time -- the back-and-forth information between the timeshare computer and the teletype (output). This paper punch tape is the Basic program that I wrote in high school that played a random basketball game (as called by Bill Schonely, radio voice of the Portland Trailblazers). I'm trying to find someone to run it through a tape reader so that I can retrieve the code and play the game again. I'm hoping to explain the code to Owen so that he might understand the power of coding and get interested in coding. Is there anyone out there that I can send my roll of paper tape to such that the code can be restored? I could pay some compensation for your troubles. Much appreciated, Gary This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 9 17:04:04 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 18:04:04 -0500 Subject: DF32? Message-ID: There's a DF32 on Ebay. I've got a bid in on it, will see what happens. In the unlikely event I win I'll have to build a system to adapt the Negibus to the pdp8/L. However did the pdp8/L have 3 cycle data break? C From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 17:10:04 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:10:04 -0800 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a bid on it right now, I was hoping to use it with my straight-8, should I be so lucky to win it. Don't want to collide with you, however... - Josh On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > There's a DF32 on Ebay. I've got a bid in on it, will see what happens. > > In the unlikely event I win I'll have to build a system to adapt the > Negibus to the pdp8/L. However did the pdp8/L have 3 cycle data break? > > C > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 9 17:16:19 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 18:16:19 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dropped. On 3/9/2021 6:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a bid on it right now, I was hoping to use it with my straight-8, > should I be so lucky to win it.? Don't want to collide with you, however... > > - Josh > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > There's a DF32 on Ebay. I've got a bid in on it, will see what happens. > > In the unlikely event I win I'll have to build a system to adapt the > Negibus to the pdp8/L. However did the pdp8/L have 3 cycle data break? > > C > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 9 17:20:50 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 18:20:50 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ecc0642-b72e-9bd8-22cd-ce83528de518@alembic.crystel.com> Jesus that went insane. I did not bid on it and would not have gone above 1k anyway. Hope you got it. C On 3/9/2021 6:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a bid on it right now, I was hoping to use it with my straight-8, > should I be so lucky to win it.? Don't want to collide with you, however... > > - Josh > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > There's a DF32 on Ebay. I've got a bid in on it, will see what happens. > > In the unlikely event I win I'll have to build a system to adapt the > Negibus to the pdp8/L. However did the pdp8/L have 3 cycle data break? > > C > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 17:27:18 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:27:18 -0700 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 4:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > There's a DF32 on Ebay. I've got a bid in on it, will see what happens. > Always wanted on, to set up a TSS/8. I hope one of you guys gets it and can put it to good use. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 17:39:48 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 18:39:48 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:10 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I have a bid on it right now, I was hoping to use it with my straight-8, > should I be so lucky to win it. Don't want to collide with you, however... > > - Josh > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > There's a DF32 on Ebay. I've got a bid in on it, will see what happens. So did one you bid over $1500? -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 9 17:53:19 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 18:53:19 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So did one you bid over $1500? > Not me. $1k would have been my limit, it's really kind of insane to run something like that. As I put on my old memory hat I remember that the platter would rust but at least the heads would not weld to the platter. Also there were two timing tracks on it and if they were toast the platter was as well. Although these days you could probably just build a formatter for it from a Beaglebone and reformat. But at that point you could just have the BB spit out the head data right to the controller. And you could just replace the whole thing with a BB that could replicate every disk drive DEC made for the pdp8. Not every model, every drive ever sold :-) C > -ethan > From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 17:57:04 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:57:04 -0800 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:39 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:10 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > I have a bid on it right now, I was hoping to use it with my straight-8, > > should I be so lucky to win it. Don't want to collide with you, > however... > > > > - Josh > > > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:04 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > There's a DF32 on Ebay. I've got a bid in on it, will see what happens. > > So did one you bid over $1500? > Not I. I wonder what the high bidder's max was... I feel kinda stupid, given that the thing's original BIN was $1500; I wasn't going to go that high on it but a friend of mine offered to chip in at the last minute so I got outbid by $25 over the original BIN price. It's OK, I have enough projects as it is and I definitely didn't need to spend more money. - Josh > > -ethan > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 9 18:03:10 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 19:03:10 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40e76747-30e9-8acb-e00a-058196433223@alembic.crystel.com> > I feel kinda stupid, given that the thing's original BIN was $1500; I > wasn't going to go that high on it but a friend of mine offered to chip in > at the last minute so I got outbid by $25 over the original BIN price. No, someone with an unlimited amount of $$$ did a last minute snipe bid. Good strategy, but the limit could have been 2k, 10k 100k. Never know. > It's OK, I have enough projects as it is and I definitely didn't need to > spend more money. Yep.... I have to get the 8/L's working first... From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 18:38:29 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 19:38:29 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> > On Mar 9, 2021, at 6:53 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> So did one you bid over $1500? > > Not me. $1k would have been my limit, it's really kind of insane to run something like that. As I put on my old memory hat I remember that the platter would rust but at least the heads would not weld to the platter. Hm. I know we had that exact problem in college with an RS11 disk (on our RSTS system). That required replacing the heads, platter, and I think motor. > > Also there were two timing tracks on it and if they were toast the platter was as well. Really? The very similar RS64, as well as the RS11, both had a formatter device that field service could use to write the timing tracks if they were lost. Or, for that matter, if the platter had to be replaced, since it arrived from the factory totally blank. > Although these days you could probably just build a formatter for it from a Beaglebone and reformat. But at that point you could just have the BB spit out the head data right to the controller. And you could just replace the whole thing with a BB that could replicate every disk drive DEC made for the pdp8. Sure, a generalization of Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator. I was just looking the other day how practical it would be for such a device to do an RK05 emulation. The answer seems to be: quite practical. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 18:45:26 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 19:45:26 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1577AC1D-AE0F-4476-BDEE-D3C488BD3DCD@comcast.net> > On Mar 9, 2021, at 7:38 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 9, 2021, at 6:53 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So did one you bid over $1500? >> >> Not me. $1k would have been my limit, it's really kind of insane to run something like that. As I put on my old memory hat I remember that the platter would rust but at least the heads would not weld to the platter. > > Hm. I know we had that exact problem in college with an RS11 disk (on our RSTS system). That required replacing the heads, platter, and I think motor. I meant that I have experienced welding of the heads. I haven't seen rusting, though I could believe that it's possible -- the platter looks like it's been blued like old style firearms. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 9 19:17:26 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:17:26 -0800 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: <1577AC1D-AE0F-4476-BDEE-D3C488BD3DCD@comcast.net> References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> <1577AC1D-AE0F-4476-BDEE-D3C488BD3DCD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1e97981e-05d9-f272-d2fe-10ae38da6668@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/21 4:45 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >the platter looks like it's been blued like old style firearms. > > paul > remided me of the problems with rhodium plating on RF08 drives here on page 9 http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2012/08/102746014-05-01-acc.pdf From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 9 19:32:47 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 20:32:47 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0b859182-7705-5dce-9252-a0290297a8b5@alembic.crystel.com> > Really? The very similar RS64, as well as the RS11, both had a formatter device that field service could use to write the timing tracks if they were lost. Or, for that matter, if the platter had to be replaced, since it arrived from the factory totally blank. Oh, sorry, meant the data was lost. I don't think it had the formatter on the unit though. > Sure, a generalization of Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator. I was just looking the other day how practical it would be for such a device to do an RK05 emulation. The answer seems to be: quite practical. The MFM emulator is an amazing bit of kit. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 9 19:39:10 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:39:10 -0800 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: <0b859182-7705-5dce-9252-a0290297a8b5@alembic.crystel.com> References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> <0b859182-7705-5dce-9252-a0290297a8b5@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 3/9/21 5:32 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Oh, sorry, meant the data was lost. I don't think it had the formatter on the unit though. track writers were something not even every field office had we had to borrow one from Chicago because the Milwaukee office didn't have one i know I have the track writer box schematics around somewhere From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 19:39:31 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 20:39:31 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: <0b859182-7705-5dce-9252-a0290297a8b5@alembic.crystel.com> References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> <0b859182-7705-5dce-9252-a0290297a8b5@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 9, 2021, at 8:32 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Really? The very similar RS64, as well as the RS11, both had a formatter device that field service could use to write the timing tracks if they were lost. Or, for that matter, if the platter had to be replaced, since it arrived from the factory totally blank. > > Oh, sorry, meant the data was lost. I don't think it had the formatter on the unit though. Right, the formatter was a piece of field service hardware. I think typically it had to be shipped up from Maynard, there wasn't enough call for them to have them at each field office. One oddity is that the timing track clock frequency on those writers is variable. The device would write the correct number of timing pulses and then read the timing track to verify the length of the gap at the end. Lights would indicate whether the gap was too small, correct, or too long, and you'd adjust the frequency knob accordingly until the "ok" light came on. It's documented in the maintenance manual. I read it long before I saw it done, and was amazed that yes, it actually work just as strangely as what the manual claims. Judging by the block diagram in the manual, you could build your own in an afternoon or two. >> Sure, a generalization of Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator. I was just looking the other day how practical it would be for such a device to do an RK05 emulation. The answer seems to be: quite practical. > > The MFM emulator is an amazing bit of kit. It certainly is. It works wonderfully well. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 19:39:43 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 19:39:43 -0600 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:38 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Sure, a generalization of Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator. I was just > looking the other day how practical it would be for such a device to do an > RK05 emulation. The answer seems to be: quite practical. > Dave made a DF32/DS32 emulator: https://www.pdp8online.com/dfds32/emulator/index.shtml Constructing an RK05 emulator would be very handy, for sure. I have toyed with the idea for those that want to spin rust on a PDP-8 (but only have 12-sector packs) to have a timing converter within the RK05 that uses a PLL to generate 16 sector pulses from 12, and can auto-detect when a real 16-sector pack is spinning (to pass the sector pulses through directly). Has this been done? Kyle From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 9 19:49:44 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 20:49:44 -0500 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: <1e97981e-05d9-f272-d2fe-10ae38da6668@bitsavers.org> References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> <1577AC1D-AE0F-4476-BDEE-D3C488BD3DCD@comcast.net> <1e97981e-05d9-f272-d2fe-10ae38da6668@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > remided me of the problems with rhodium plating on RF08 drives here on > page 9 > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2012/08/102746014-05-01-acc.pdf Interesting document Al. Reading about the RK05, it seems to be little more than a double density version of the RK8/RK03(?) Was that a Diablo drive or a Pertec? C (Had an RK8, big square drive number buttons with lights in them) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 9 19:55:16 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:55:16 -0800 Subject: DF32? In-Reply-To: References: <54D37775-099A-4984-95C1-8B58400849A0@comcast.net> <1577AC1D-AE0F-4476-BDEE-D3C488BD3DCD@comcast.net> <1e97981e-05d9-f272-d2fe-10ae38da6668@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <91271b89-fee1-06ec-4d73-dcc6712c96e5@bitsavers.org> On 3/9/21 5:49 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Interesting document Al. Reading about the RK05, it seems to be little more than a double density version of the RK8/RK03(?) Was that a > Diablo drive or a Pertec? RK03 was a Diablo. The big difference was the linear voice coil motor in the RK05, similar to the PERTEC D3000 and it being DEC's first in-house moving head disk design. From garyldye at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 13:23:01 2021 From: garyldye at hotmail.com (Gary Dye) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:23:01 +0000 Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed In-Reply-To: <600eb239-074a-68fb-9223-4a49b81166df@frontier.com> References: , <600eb239-074a-68fb-9223-4a49b81166df@frontier.com> Message-ID: I live in SE Portland. I think I could recognize and correct whatever typos are produced by your tapereader. Should I send ot to you? Gary Garyldye at hotmail.com 503-970-4249 Gary ________________________________ From: Vincent Slyngstad Sent: Tuesday, March 9, 2021 12:41:31 AM To: Camiel Vanderhoeven ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts ; Gary Dye Subject: Re: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed I am a cctalk subscriber, but I don't seem to be getting messages reliably any more. So, I'm replying to the reply, as I never got the original query. Anyway Gary, I'm in Beaverton OR, USA and so quite possibly local, and I can read your paper tape easily enough. Email or a thumb drive or whatever so you can print out the result. I don't think my Teletype is in good enough shape at the moment to make you a period correct print-out, though. Vince On 3/9/2021 12:03 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > Gary, > > I don't know if you're in Europe or elsewhere. I'm in the Netherlands, and I could do that free of charge. I'd also make a video recording of the process for your sons education. > > Camiel > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of Gary Dye via cctech > Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 11:30 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Need to have a roll of paper punch tape read by a tape reader and printed > > Hi folks. I wrote a basketball program in Basic over 40 years ago in high school. I printed the 13 pages of code, and produced a roll of paper punch tape of the code, but the 13 pages were destroyed, leaving me with only the paper tape. My 14-year-old son was pretty fascinated to see the roll of computer punch tape -- paper with holes in it! -- that we used to store files in the old days. And that we didn't have computer screens, but only a teletype element that printed -- one letter at a time -- the back-and-forth information between the timeshare computer and the teletype (output). This paper punch tape is the Basic program that I wrote in high school that played a random basketball game (as called by Bill Schonely, radio voice of the Portland Trailblazers). I'm trying to find someone to run it through a tape reader so that I can retrieve the code and play the game again. I'm hoping to explain the code to Owen so that he might understand the power of coding and get interested in coding. > > Is there anyone out there that I can send my roll of paper tape to such that the code can be restored? I could pay some compensation for your troubles. > > Much appreciated, > > Gary > > This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > From bobvines00 at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 13:56:19 2021 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:56:19 -0500 Subject: Is DECtape Read/Write Head "In-the-Weeds" Info Available? Message-ID: Does anyone have "in-the-weeds" information on the DECtape read/write heads? I've got several TU-55 transports and a box of DECtapes (thank you very much Doug!) _and_ Michael's failed DECtape head from several years ago that I'm de-potting. I very much want to figure out how to repair Michael's DECTape head and will return it to him if I can do so. I've read the document that Al posted a link to in the discussion on DF32s: Message-ID: <1e97981e-05d9-f272-d2fe-10ae38da6668 at bitsavers.org> ... "remided me of the problems with rhodium plating on RF08 drives here on page 9 http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2012/08/102746014-05-01-acc.pdf " The "Oral History of Grant Saviers" is interesting and gives a lot of information about various storage technologies that were used over the years. It reminded me of my desire to learn everything I can about DECtape _and_ DECtape transports. Maybe the CHM or someone else has interviews or tech data that helps answer my request? Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 10 14:26:50 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 12:26:50 -0800 Subject: Is DECtape Read/Write Head "In-the-Weeds" Info Available? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <675d72f8-eb1d-cab5-46f5-26c81fbc3248@bitsavers.org> On 3/10/21 11:56 AM, Bob Vines via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have "in-the-weeds" information on the DECtape read/write > heads? I've got several TU-55 transports and a box of DECtapes (thank you > very much Doug!) _and_ Michael's failed DECtape head from several years ago > that I'm de-potting. I very much want to figure out how to repair > Michael's DECTape head and will return it to him if I can do so. > > I've read the document that Al posted a link to in the discussion on DF32s: > > Message-ID: <1e97981e-05d9-f272-d2fe-10ae38da6668 at bitsavers.org> > ... > "remided me of the problems with rhodium plating on RF08 drives here on > page 9 > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2012/08/102746014-05-01-acc.pdf > " > > The "Oral History of Grant Saviers" is interesting and gives a lot of > information about various storage technologies that were used over the > years. It reminded me of my desire to learn everything I can about DECtape > _and_ DECtape transports. > > Maybe the CHM or someone else has interviews or tech data that helps answer > my request? > > > Bob > Stockebrand would be the person to talk to, if he's still alive From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 11 09:48:08 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:48:08 -0600 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> Message-ID: <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> Richardson, TX I assume. At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting grounds soon unless there is interest. > >Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. > >(On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) > >-- >John, W9DDD >______________________________________________________________ >GreenKeys mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu Mar 11 09:59:00 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:59:00 -0600 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> I am interested if this is not already spoken for. --tnx --tom On 3/11/21 9:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Richardson, TX I assume. > > At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting grounds soon unless there is interest. >> >> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >> >> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >> >> -- >> John, W9DDD >> ______________________________________________________________ >> GreenKeys mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys > > From george.rachor at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 10:04:27 2021 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 08:04:27 -0800 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <940D12CE-C433-497C-8616-897ACCD0BB6E@gmail.com> 5.25 inch drive or 8 inch? George Rachor george at rachors.com > On Mar 11, 2021, at 7:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > Richardson, TX I assume. > > At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting grounds soon unless there is interest. >> >> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >> >> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >> >> -- >> John, W9DDD >> ______________________________________________________________ >> GreenKeys mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 11 10:20:39 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 10:20:39 -0600 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.co m> References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <20210311162058.CDDC84E678@mx2.ezwind.net> At 09:59 AM 3/11/2021, Tom Uban wrote: >I am interested if this is not already spoken for. I'm sorry, I forgot to include the giver's email. "John, W9DDD" Contact him directly. - John From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 11 13:58:56 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:58:56 -0500 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/21 10:59 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I am interested if this is not already spoken for. > > --tnx > --tom > > On 3/11/21 9:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> Richardson, TX I assume. >> >> At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >>> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting grounds soon unless there is interest. >>> >>> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >>> >>> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >>> >>> -- >>> John, W9DDD in a box around here somewhere I have a still unassembled Xerox 820 motherboard. Never found anyone even remotely interested. bill From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu Mar 11 14:06:32 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:06:32 -0600 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <208b1933-f1d6-92e3-e1ff-d7adb90f6602@figureeightbrewing.com> On 3/11/21 1:58 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/21 10:59 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> I am interested if this is not already spoken for. >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> >> On 3/11/21 9:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>> Richardson, TX I assume. >>> >>> At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >>>> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting grounds soon unless there is >>>> interest. >>>> >>>> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >>>> >>>> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >>>> >>>> --? >>>> John, W9DDD > > in a box around here somewhere I have a still unassembled Xerox 820 motherboard.? Never found > anyone even remotely interested. > > bill > Is that a Xerox 820 or a "Ferguson Big Board". They are both the same schematically. I previously had the former and still have the latter, though mine is assembled. --tom From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 11 15:52:46 2021 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 13:52:46 -0800 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <02561a0d-4eee-b1ec-8a9c-7f321bec7bfd@att.net> Are you offering it up? Steve On 3/11/2021 11:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/21 10:59 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> I am interested if this is not already spoken for. >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> >> On 3/11/21 9:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>> Richardson, TX I assume. >>> >>> At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >>>> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting >>>> grounds soon unless there is interest. >>>> >>>> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >>>> >>>> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John, W9DDD > > in a box around here somewhere I have a still unassembled Xerox 820 > motherboard.? Never found anyone even remotely interested. > > bill > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 11 17:17:43 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 18:17:43 -0500 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <208b1933-f1d6-92e3-e1ff-d7adb90f6602@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> <208b1933-f1d6-92e3-e1ff-d7adb90f6602@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/21 3:06 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > On 3/11/21 1:58 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/11/21 10:59 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>> I am interested if this is not already spoken for. >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >>> On 3/11/21 9:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>>> Richardson, TX I assume. >>>> >>>> At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >>>>> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting grounds soon unless there is >>>>> interest. >>>>> >>>>> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >>>>> >>>>> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> John, W9DDD >> >> in a box around here somewhere I have a still unassembled Xerox 820 motherboard.? Never found >> anyone even remotely interested. >> >> bill >> > Is that a Xerox 820 or a "Ferguson Big Board". They are both the same schematically. I previously > had the former and still have the latter, though mine is assembled. > > --tom > Don't know what a Big Board is. This is one of the boards hams were using to build W0RLI BBSes. My packet interestes went in a different direction so I never got around to building it. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 11 17:19:09 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 18:19:09 -0500 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <02561a0d-4eee-b1ec-8a9c-7f321bec7bfd@att.net> References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> <02561a0d-4eee-b1ec-8a9c-7f321bec7bfd@att.net> Message-ID: On 3/11/21 4:52 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: > Are you offering it up? > No idea where it might be at the moment. Haven't seen it since my last relocation in 2014. bill > > Steve > > On 3/11/2021 11:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/11/21 10:59 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>> I am interested if this is not already spoken for. >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >>> On 3/11/21 9:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>>> Richardson, TX I assume. >>>> >>>> At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >>>>> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy hunting >>>>> grounds soon unless there is interest. >>>>> >>>>> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >>>>> >>>>> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> John, W9DDD >> >> in a box around here somewhere I have a still unassembled Xerox 820 >> motherboard.? Never found anyone even remotely interested. >> >> bill >> > > From shumaker at att.net Thu Mar 11 17:26:33 2021 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 15:26:33 -0800 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> <02561a0d-4eee-b1ec-8a9c-7f321bec7bfd@att.net> Message-ID: <148e4319-b5ba-2670-aa94-e1f991e014b0@att.net> On 3/11/2021 3:19 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/21 4:52 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> Are you offering it up? >> > > No idea where it might be at the moment.? Haven't seen it since > my last relocation in 2014. > > bill > > >> >> Steve >> >> On 3/11/2021 11:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> On 3/11/21 10:59 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>>> I am interested if this is not already spoken for. >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>>> On 3/11/21 9:48 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Richardson, TX I assume. >>>>> >>>>> At 09:42 AM 3/11/2021, John, W9DDD wrote: >>>>>> I have a Xerox 820 (rev 2 -II?) that will go to it's happy >>>>>> hunting grounds soon unless there is interest. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pictures if interested, part it out if it gets to that point. >>>>>> >>>>>> (On topic to the extent it makes room for more Teletype equipment.) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> John, W9DDD >>> >>> in a box around here somewhere I have a still unassembled Xerox 820 >>> motherboard.? Never found anyone even remotely interested. >>> >>> bill >>> >> >> > lol?? know that feeling - figured I'd ask. Steve From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 18:54:31 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 19:54:31 -0500 Subject: DECtape ancestry Message-ID: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> I just read part of the Grant Saviers interview from CHM, where near the end he gives a bit of history of DECtape. In particular, the fact that it was derived from LINCtape though the format details are quite different. A question popped into my mind, prompted by having read Guy Fedorkow's paper about Whirlwind just a few days earlier: the Whirlwind tape format has 6 physical tracks but 3 logical tracks (each logical track is recorded redundantly on two physical tracks) and one of those tracks is a clock track. LINCtape and DECtape have the same redundant recording scheme, and also have a clock track; the difference is that they add a mark track to enable the recording of block numbers and in-place block writing. That made me wonder if LINCtape was, in part, inspired by the Whirlwind tape system, or if those analogies are just a concidence. Incidentally, it's probably not widely known that LINCtape/DECtape is not the only tape system with random block write capability. Another one that does this is the Electrologica X1 tape system, which uses 1/2 inch 10 track tapes, which include a clock and a mark track. An interesting wrinkle is that the X1 tape system lets you chose the block size when formatting the tape, and then data block writes allow for the writing of any block size up to the formatted block size. I'm not sure when that device was introduced; the documentation I have is from 1964. There's no sign the designers knew of DECtape (or vice versa). paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 19:05:37 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 20:05:37 -0500 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul, Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Bill On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 7:54 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just read part of the Grant Saviers interview from CHM, where near the > end he gives a bit of history of DECtape. In particular, the fact that it > was derived from LINCtape though the format details are quite different. > > A question popped into my mind, prompted by having read Guy Fedorkow's > paper about Whirlwind just a few days earlier: the Whirlwind tape format > has 6 physical tracks but 3 logical tracks (each logical track is recorded > redundantly on two physical tracks) and one of those tracks is a clock > track. LINCtape and DECtape have the same redundant recording scheme, and > also have a clock track; the difference is that they add a mark track to > enable the recording of block numbers and in-place block writing. > > That made me wonder if LINCtape was, in part, inspired by the Whirlwind > tape system, or if those analogies are just a concidence. > > Incidentally, it's probably not widely known that LINCtape/DECtape is not > the only tape system with random block write capability. Another one that > does this is the Electrologica X1 tape system, which uses 1/2 inch 10 track > tapes, which include a clock and a mark track. An interesting wrinkle is > that the X1 tape system lets you chose the block size when formatting the > tape, and then data block writes allow for the writing of any block size up > to the formatted block size. I'm not sure when that device was introduced; > the documentation I have is from 1964. There's no sign the designers knew > of DECtape (or vice versa). > > paul > > From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 20:12:35 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 21:12:35 -0500 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> Message-ID: My recollection was the Linc was inspired by the Whirlwind. Whirlwind predates it by a few years. AND of course the Linc inspired the PDP5 and PDP8. Of course some one correct me if this is wrong, but my sources were DEC when I worked there 1969-1980, stories with Don White and others, as well as my sabbatical on site at Lincoln Lab building working on a project, some interaction with associates of Charles Molnar et al, and their recollections. And Linc8 and Link12 were related too. Here is a link (pardon the pun) to the Digibarn recollection story on LINC. https://www.digibarn.com/stories/linc/documents/LINC-Personal-Workstation/LINC-Personal-Workstation.pdf On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 8:05 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Paul, > Very interesting, thanks for sharing. > Bill > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 7:54 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I just read part of the Grant Saviers interview from CHM, where near the > > end he gives a bit of history of DECtape. In particular, the fact that it > > was derived from LINCtape though the format details are quite different. > > > > A question popped into my mind, prompted by having read Guy Fedorkow's > > paper about Whirlwind just a few days earlier: the Whirlwind tape format > > has 6 physical tracks but 3 logical tracks (each logical track is recorded > > redundantly on two physical tracks) and one of those tracks is a clock > > track. LINCtape and DECtape have the same redundant recording scheme, and > > also have a clock track; the difference is that they add a mark track to > > enable the recording of block numbers and in-place block writing. > > > > That made me wonder if LINCtape was, in part, inspired by the Whirlwind > > tape system, or if those analogies are just a concidence. > > > > Incidentally, it's probably not widely known that LINCtape/DECtape is not > > the only tape system with random block write capability. Another one that > > does this is the Electrologica X1 tape system, which uses 1/2 inch 10 track > > tapes, which include a clock and a mark track. An interesting wrinkle is > > that the X1 tape system lets you chose the block size when formatting the > > tape, and then data block writes allow for the writing of any block size up > > to the formatted block size. I'm not sure when that device was introduced; > > the documentation I have is from 1964. There's no sign the designers knew > > of DECtape (or vice versa). > > > > paul > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 11 20:16:56 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 18:16:56 -0800 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/11/21 6:12 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > My recollection was the Linc was inspired by the Whirlwind. Whirlwind > predates it by a few years. Tom Stockebrand is the connecting link between all of these tape systems. I don't know if he was involved with the original Raytheon tape design for Whirlwind but he is known to have work on the tape system for the Memory Test Computer and certainly would be aware of how the WW tape system worked. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 11 20:18:09 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 18:18:09 -0800 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/21 6:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/21 6:12 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: >> My recollection was the Linc was inspired by the Whirlwind. Whirlwind >> predates it by a few years. > > Tom Stockebrand is the connecting link between all of these tape systems. > > I don't know if he was involved with the original Raytheon tape design > for Whirlwind but he is known to have work on the tape system for the > Memory Test Computer and certainly would be aware of how the WW tape > system worked. > > He also did the magtape system for TX-2 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 11 20:23:31 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 18:23:31 -0800 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1f029687-326d-9506-bf79-bbc3068c058c@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/21 6:18 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/21 6:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/11/21 6:12 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: >>> My recollection was the Linc was inspired by the Whirlwind. Whirlwind >>> predates it by a few years. >> >> Tom Stockebrand is the connecting link between all of these tape systems. >> >> I don't know if he was involved with the original Raytheon tape design >> for Whirlwind but he is known to have work on the tape system for the >> Memory Test Computer and certainly would be aware of how the WW tape >> system worked. >> >> > ?He also did the magtape system for TX-2 > there are memos in the Whirlwind archives that show the magnetic tape they were getting had so many imperfections that they had to double up on the tracks to make it reliable From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Mar 11 20:48:37 2021 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 18:48:37 -0800 Subject: [GreenKeys] OT FTGH Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: <7e016cd7-e881-6790-f4b3-ec3d9dca974a@tapr.org> <20210311154906.412824E674@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c324a94-38f6-1f36-e9f6-ca3852e833e1@figureeightbrewing.com> <02561a0d-4eee-b1ec-8a9c-7f321bec7bfd@att.net> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2021, at 3:19 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > No idea where it might be at the moment. Haven't seen it since > my last relocation in 2014. > > bill I think I have a ?Big Board? that?s suffered a similar fate. Though it could have potentially ended up at Paul Allens museum. I vaguely know where is should be, and that area is inaccessible. Zane From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Mar 12 00:47:52 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 07:47:52 +0100 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo Message-ID: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> Howdy, I more often than not use one of the old style browsers (lynx, dillo etc). Using search engines with them was rather uncool (unusable links in search results, wanting to load some bs or js, etc). For this reason I type my searches using mozilla and very rarely trying this with duckduckgo and almost never with goog. Today I noticed that duckduckgo redirects my classic browsers to lite.duckduckgo.com and I can use the results. Cool! Tried with dillo and w3m. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From sieler at allegro.com Fri Mar 12 01:22:22 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 23:22:22 -0800 Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone remember the product name or number of the tiny HP portable printer (*not* an HP 2225 of any kind!) that probably came out about the same time as the HP Omnibook 300 (1993)? (My google-fu failed me.) IIRC, it was able to print on regular paper 8.5" wide, probably using a thinkjet mechanism. Battery powered, probably black, probably HP-IL interface. I remember coveting one when I got my first Omnibook, but by that time they were off the market and the only one I ever saw wasn't for sale (I did borrow it for a few days, it worked well). The use of standard (in the U.S.) paper, plus the tiny size, had be interested in it. thanks, Stan From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 01:31:50 2021 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (davidkcollins2 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 18:31:50 +1100 Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> How about this... http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=311 David Collins www.hpmuseum.net -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Stan Sieler via cctalk Sent: Friday, 12 March 2021 6:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 Hi, Does anyone remember the product name or number of the tiny HP portable printer (*not* an HP 2225 of any kind!) that probably came out about the same time as the HP Omnibook 300 (1993)? (My google-fu failed me.) IIRC, it was able to print on regular paper 8.5" wide, probably using a thinkjet mechanism. Battery powered, probably black, probably HP-IL interface. I remember coveting one when I got my first Omnibook, but by that time they were off the market and the only one I ever saw wasn't for sale (I did borrow it for a few days, it worked well). The use of standard (in the U.S.) paper, plus the tiny size, had be interested in it. thanks, Stan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 12 01:43:59 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 23:43:59 -0800 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 3/11/21 10:47 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Howdy, > > I more often than not use one of the old style browsers (lynx, dillo > etc). Using search engines with them was rather uncool (unusable links > in search results, wanting to load some bs or js, etc). For this > reason I type my searches using mozilla and very rarely trying this > with duckduckgo and almost never with goog. > > Today I noticed that duckduckgo redirects my classic browsers to > lite.duckduckgo.com and I can use the results. Cool! > > Tried with dillo and w3m. There's a compromise--google with a browser plug-in that removes the redirection in google results. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google-search-link-fix/ There are other similar plugins. --Chuck From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Fri Mar 12 03:11:34 2021 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (U'll Be King Of The Stars) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 09:11:34 +0000 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <44aa145c-a6b5-a202-b0ef-273e156801f0@andrewnesbit.org> On 12/03/2021 06:47, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Today I noticed that duckduckgo redirects my classic browsers to > lite.duckduckgo.com and I can use the results. Cool! Right on! Thanks for the update! > Tried with dillo and w3m. I'm looking forward to trying with Lynx. Andrew From david.raingeard at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 05:33:15 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:33:15 +0100 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC Message-ID: Hello, I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make ports. thank you From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 12 05:40:59 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 03:40:59 -0800 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/12/21 3:33 AM, david raingeard via cctech wrote: > Hello, > > I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make ports. > > thank you > have you tried contacting John Gilmore? From david.raingeard at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 06:05:23 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 13:05:23 +0100 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, I don't even know who he is, sorry Le ven. 12 mars 2021 ? 12:41, Al Kossow via cctech a ?crit : > On 3/12/21 3:33 AM, david raingeard via cctech wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make > ports. > > > > thank you > > > > have you tried contacting John Gilmore? > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 12 06:10:46 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 04:10:46 -0800 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <804c103c-91e7-77a6-b915-718acc1ecea5@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/21 4:05 AM, david raingeard wrote: > No, I don't even know who he is, sorry > Seriously? He's one of the Cygnus founders and is a good guy From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 12 06:27:48 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 04:27:48 -0800 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9376bcad-1e89-46be-88f2-9b1af6f05c56@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/21 3:33 AM, david raingeard via cctech wrote: > Hello, > > I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make ports. > > thank you > I think this is where all the code wound up after Red Hat abandoned GNUpro https://sourceware.org/mission.html From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 12 06:41:39 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 04:41:39 -0800 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: <9376bcad-1e89-46be-88f2-9b1af6f05c56@bitsavers.org> References: <9376bcad-1e89-46be-88f2-9b1af6f05c56@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2358ffc8-505f-1437-14cb-5c07fc054515@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/21 4:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > On 3/12/21 3:33 AM, david raingeard via cctech wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make ports. >> >> thank you >> > > I think this is where all the code wound up after Red Hat abandoned GNUpro > https://sourceware.org/mission.html > Preservation of development toolchains especially for embedded systems is really a mess. Turn of the century emulators show up on eBay and are completely useless because they don't include the software and often don't even have the manual. From david.raingeard at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 06:43:53 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 13:43:53 +0100 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: <2358ffc8-505f-1437-14cb-5c07fc054515@bitsavers.org> References: <9376bcad-1e89-46be-88f2-9b1af6f05c56@bitsavers.org> <2358ffc8-505f-1437-14cb-5c07fc054515@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: You are very right. I made two scsi disks, one with BeOS 5 and the other with BeOS 4.5 for my BeBox so It can be restored if needed. Hardware ecosystem preservation is a real mess... Le ven. 12 mars 2021 ? 13:41, Al Kossow via cctech a ?crit : > On 3/12/21 4:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > On 3/12/21 3:33 AM, david raingeard via cctech wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make > ports. > >> > >> thank you > >> > > > > I think this is where all the code wound up after Red Hat abandoned > GNUpro > > https://sourceware.org/mission.html > > > > Preservation of development toolchains especially for embedded systems is > really a mess. > > Turn of the century emulators show up on eBay and are completely useless > because they > don't include the software and often don't even have the manual. > > > From david.raingeard at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 06:45:43 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 13:45:43 +0100 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: <2358ffc8-505f-1437-14cb-5c07fc054515@bitsavers.org> References: <9376bcad-1e89-46be-88f2-9b1af6f05c56@bitsavers.org> <2358ffc8-505f-1437-14cb-5c07fc054515@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: check www.raingeard.fr ? I compiled apache and php to run on my nextstation mono turbo. I also have a mono, color, turbo mono, turbo color, and a nextcube Le ven. 12 mars 2021 ? 13:41, Al Kossow via cctech a ?crit : > On 3/12/21 4:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > On 3/12/21 3:33 AM, david raingeard via cctech wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make > ports. > >> > >> thank you > >> > > > > I think this is where all the code wound up after Red Hat abandoned > GNUpro > > https://sourceware.org/mission.html > > > > Preservation of development toolchains especially for embedded systems is > really a mess. > > Turn of the century emulators show up on eBay and are completely useless > because they > don't include the software and often don't even have the manual. > > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Mar 12 09:02:15 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:02:15 +0100 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20210312150215.GA28177@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:43:59PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: [...] > > Tried with dillo and w3m. > > There's a compromise--google with a browser plug-in that removes the > redirection in google results. > > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google-search-link-fix/ > > There are other similar plugins. Good to know. Alas, I am willing to accept just one plugin in my browser, the one which allows me to turn js off selectively. So far, the choice went for noscript. I know other folks swear for umatrix or smth, but I am still with the one I tried already. The other plugin would be one allowing me to right-click somewhere in the page and choose "copy url to the cache". And the one for browsing gopher sites. Hmm. I wrote "just one plugin", now there is three of them. Hmmm... Never mind. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Mar 12 09:05:55 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:05:55 +0100 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <44aa145c-a6b5-a202-b0ef-273e156801f0@andrewnesbit.org> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <44aa145c-a6b5-a202-b0ef-273e156801f0@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <20210312150555.GB28177@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 09:11:34AM +0000, U'll Be King Of The Stars via cctalk wrote: > On 12/03/2021 06:47, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > Today I noticed that duckduckgo redirects my classic browsers to > > lite.duckduckgo.com and I can use the results. Cool! > > Right on! Thanks for the update! > > > Tried with dillo and w3m. > > I'm looking forward to trying with Lynx. Yeah, mee too. I have recompiling lynx in the jobs queue for months. The version I am using is close to useless for browsing, because too old... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From david.raingeard at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 09:25:34 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:25:34 +0100 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <20210312150555.GB28177@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <44aa145c-a6b5-a202-b0ef-273e156801f0@andrewnesbit.org> <20210312150555.GB28177@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: wrong mail... Le ven. 12 mars 2021 ? 16:06, Tomasz Rola via cctalk a ?crit : > On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 09:11:34AM +0000, U'll Be King Of The Stars via > cctalk wrote: > > On 12/03/2021 06:47, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > > Today I noticed that duckduckgo redirects my classic browsers to > > > lite.duckduckgo.com and I can use the results. Cool! > > > > Right on! Thanks for the update! > > > > > Tried with dillo and w3m. > > > > I'm looking forward to trying with Lynx. > > Yeah, mee too. I have recompiling lynx in the jobs queue for > months. The version I am using is close to useless for browsing, > because too old... > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 12 10:14:25 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 11:14:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 Backplane on eBay Message-ID: <20210312161425.765D318C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> There's a PDP-8 (/E or /M) backplane (presumably OMNIBUS) on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/0-slot-Backplane-H1919-9216/402735040240 (The number is given incorrectly in the title; it's actually 'H9191'.) Noel From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 10:38:19 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 11:38:19 -0500 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: <1f029687-326d-9506-bf79-bbc3068c058c@bitsavers.org> References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> <1f029687-326d-9506-bf79-bbc3068c058c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: THanks Al! I forgot about that chapter of Tom's ..worked for him for a few years, Fantastic Boss, and one helluv an engineer. bb On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 9:23 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/11/21 6:18 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/11/21 6:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> On 3/11/21 6:12 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > >>> My recollection was the Linc was inspired by the Whirlwind. Whirlwind > >>> predates it by a few years. > >> > >> Tom Stockebrand is the connecting link between all of these tape systems. > >> > >> I don't know if he was involved with the original Raytheon tape design > >> for Whirlwind but he is known to have work on the tape system for the > >> Memory Test Computer and certainly would be aware of how the WW tape > >> system worked. > >> > >> > > He also did the magtape system for TX-2 > > > > there are memos in the Whirlwind archives that show the magnetic tape they > were getting had so many imperfections that they had to double up on the > tracks to make it reliable > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 12 12:56:39 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: from david raingeard via cctalk at "Mar 12, 21 12:33:15 pm" Message-ID: <202103121856.12CIudL06225998@floodgap.com> > I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make ports. I have a version of gnupro in gopher://gopher.floodgap.com:70/1/archive/be-power/dev but while it runs on my BeBox it is a cross-compiler for i586, so this is probably not what you want. I do my development with mwcc normally. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Too weird to live, and too rare to die. -- Hunter S. Thompson -------------- From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 17:02:07 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:02:07 -0800 Subject: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? Message-ID: Any ideas what this disc controller is? https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a controller for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate power harness for the backplane. - Josh From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Mar 12 17:44:59 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:44:59 -0800 Subject: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a706bf7-36c2-4433-b3ff-8a0783f019b4@jwsss.com> On 3/12/2021 3:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Any ideas what this disc controller is? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 > > Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a controller > for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or > something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the > little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate power > harness for the backplane. > > - Josh > I found one computerworld reference to a distributor stocking them, MTI.? but no hit on the ones I think they are. I had a friend who worked at a place with this name in Irvine which did tape and disk controller systems for more than just DEC.? He worked @ Microdata on some projects I worked on, then went back (79 or 80) and stayed there.? He had a stake in the company, but he took contracting work like we had @ Microdata to help out. The ad I saw was 1981 computer world for MTI, with just the company name. thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 12 19:07:24 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:07:24 -0800 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: <202103121856.12CIudL06225998@floodgap.com> References: <202103121856.12CIudL06225998@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20ef98ff-ae22-9102-0a1d-497e8e7a01db@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/21 10:56 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> I am looking for cygnus gnupro for powerpc BeOS, to be able to make ports. > > I have a version of gnupro in > > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com:70/1/archive/be-power/dev > > but while it runs on my BeBox it is a cross-compiler for i586, so this is > probably not what you want. I do my development with mwcc normally. > I emailed Brian Swetland about this "Yeah, Be contracted them to do the port when they switched from Metroworks to GCC (97-98 maybe?). I had forgotten they called it GNUpro." "It might have only supported x86." From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Mar 12 19:25:27 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 20:25:27 -0500 Subject: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? In-Reply-To: <2a706bf7-36c2-4433-b3ff-8a0783f019b4@jwsss.com> References: <2a706bf7-36c2-4433-b3ff-8a0783f019b4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9b2eb2f0-d657-473a-fab2-6a85c4931e72@alembic.crystel.com> Hm. I have a Q bus controller for a Diablo 44 which is the 5mb removable, 5mb fixed using an RL01 type pack. It emulates 4 RK05's. Same edge connector but only one of them. C On 3/12/2021 6:44 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/12/2021 3:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> Any ideas what this disc controller is? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 >> >> >> Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a >> controller >> for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or >> something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the >> little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate >> power >> harness for the backplane. >> >> - Josh >> > I found one computerworld reference to a distributor stocking them, > MTI.? but no hit on the ones I think they are. > > I had a friend who worked at a place with this name in Irvine which did > tape and disk controller systems for more than just DEC.? He worked @ > Microdata on some projects I worked on, then went back (79 or 80) and > stayed there.? He had a stake in the company, but he took contracting > work like we had @ Microdata to help out. > > The ad I saw was 1981 computer world for MTI, with just the company name. > > thanks > Jim From sieler at allegro.com Fri Mar 12 20:39:13 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 18:39:13 -0800 Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bingo, David nailed it! (The HP DeskJet Portable) Thanks! Stan On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:31 PM wrote: > How about this... > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=311 > > David Collins > www.hpmuseum.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Stan Sieler via > cctalk > Sent: Friday, 12 March 2021 6:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 > > Hi, > > Does anyone remember the product name or number of the tiny HP portable > printer (*not* an HP 2225 of any kind!) that probably came out about the > same time as the HP Omnibook 300 (1993)? > (My google-fu failed me.) > > IIRC, it was able to print on regular paper 8.5" wide, probably using a > thinkjet mechanism. > Battery powered, probably black, probably HP-IL interface. > > I remember coveting one when I got my first Omnibook, but by that time > they were off the market and the only one I ever saw wasn't for sale (I did > borrow it for a few days, it worked well). > The use of standard (in the U.S.) paper, plus the tiny size, had be > interested in it. > > thanks, > > Stan > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 12 20:58:18 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 18:58:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Does that mean that you WANT one? (or more) There were several slightly varying models. There was a detachable paper feed bracket, that is rarely with it. Do you want some OLD cartridges (to clean out and try to refill?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Fri, 12 Mar 2021, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > Bingo, David nailed it! > > (The HP DeskJet Portable) > > Thanks! > > Stan > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:31 PM wrote: > >> How about this... >> >> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=311 >> >> David Collins >> www.hpmuseum.net >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Stan Sieler via >> cctalk >> Sent: Friday, 12 March 2021 6:22 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 >> >> Hi, >> >> Does anyone remember the product name or number of the tiny HP portable >> printer (*not* an HP 2225 of any kind!) that probably came out about the >> same time as the HP Omnibook 300 (1993)? >> (My google-fu failed me.) >> >> IIRC, it was able to print on regular paper 8.5" wide, probably using a >> thinkjet mechanism. >> Battery powered, probably black, probably HP-IL interface. >> >> I remember coveting one when I got my first Omnibook, but by that time >> they were off the market and the only one I ever saw wasn't for sale (I did >> borrow it for a few days, it worked well). >> The use of standard (in the U.S.) paper, plus the tiny size, had be >> interested in it. >> >> thanks, >> >> Stan >> From sieler at allegro.com Fri Mar 12 21:23:40 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:23:40 -0800 Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Fred tempts me from the garden: "does that mean you want one?" It's only one ... it's easy ... try it .... Argh...I was hoping I wouldn't be asked that, because I couldn't decide. ... ... ok... I think I'd be interested in having one that would work with an Omnibook (but have no interest in the paper feeder). (I knew the feeder existed, but haven't seen one.) If the 51608A (cartridge used by the printer) is the same as the ones used in the old ThinkJets, it looks like some people might be selling "new" ones, but it would probably be a good idea to have a couple to try cleaning/refilling just in case. As a history nod: the late Carson Kan of HP Labs was the one who suggested that the inkhead be a disposable & user replaceable item ... at the time, the inkjet project was stuck and Barney Oliver sent him to it as his trouble shooter. (It was stuck because the non-replaceable printhead kept getting ink clogs.) (As related to me by Carson, about 2005.) thanks, Stan On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 6:58 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > Does that mean that you WANT one? (or more) > > There were several slightly varying models. > There was a detachable paper feed bracket, that is rarely with it. > Do you want some OLD cartridges (to clean out and try to refill?) > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 12 21:43:12 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:43:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: ABSOLUTELY no promises. Next week, I will be going where I think that I remember seeing a box with one or more of them. At one time, I had several, including ONE paper feeder, and MAYBE a battery. Recently, I did see the cartridge "humidor"! I think that all of mine were "Centronics" parallel interface. If it is NOT where I think that I remember seeing it, there are several on eBay. There was one model of the thinkjet that used the same ink cartridge as the Kodak/Diconix. (51604) THIS DOES NOT. The 51608A and 51604 are VERY different. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Fri, 12 Mar 2021, Stan Sieler wrote: > Fred tempts me from the garden: "does that mean you want one?" It's only > one ... it's easy ... try it .... > > Argh...I was hoping I wouldn't be asked that, because I couldn't decide. > ... ... ok... > > I think I'd be interested in having one that would work with an Omnibook > (but have no interest in the paper feeder). > (I knew the feeder existed, but haven't seen one.) > > If the 51608A (cartridge used by the printer) is the same as the ones used > in the old ThinkJets, it looks like some people might be selling "new" > ones, but it would probably be a good idea to have a couple to try > cleaning/refilling just in case. > > As a history nod: the late Carson Kan of HP Labs was the one who suggested > that the inkhead be a disposable & user replaceable item ... at the time, > the inkjet project was stuck and Barney Oliver sent him to it as his > trouble shooter. (It was stuck because the non-replaceable printhead kept > getting ink clogs.) > (As related to me by Carson, about 2005.) > > thanks, > > Stan > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 6:58 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Does that mean that you WANT one? (or more) >> >> There were several slightly varying models. >> There was a detachable paper feed bracket, that is rarely with it. >> Do you want some OLD cartridges (to clean out and try to refill?) From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Mar 13 01:33:04 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 07:33:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1480733352.519766.1615620784491@mail.yahoo.com> ?the teletype ink printer suffered the? same? problems? ? ? ----ed#????In a message dated 3/12/2021 8:43:18 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? > As a history nod: the late Carson Kan of HP Labs was the one who suggested > that the inkhead be a disposable & user replaceable item ... at the time, > the inkjet project was stuck and Barney Oliver sent him to it as his > trouble shooter.? (It was stuck because the non-replaceable printhead kept > getting ink clogs.) > (As related to me by Carson, about 2005.) From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 13 02:17:56 2021 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 08:17:56 +0000 Subject: Wagner WAC40 Message-ID: Hi, I recently bought a core rope memory unit from a Wagner WAC40, mainly because it?s very aesthetically pleasing and looks good on display: https://i.redd.it/h9sb550uhnm61.jpg However, i can fine very little about Wagner Computer, the WAC40 (and WAC12), or the man behind the company, G?nter Wagner. Does anyone have any info on any of these subjects? This links seems to be all i can find: https://blog.hnf.de/gauner-gelder-und-computer/ Thanks, Josh Rice From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sat Mar 13 04:56:34 2021 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 11:56:34 +0100 Subject: Wagner WAC40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27a4bec8-1b92-cd93-a882-4c2256bcbe3a@bluewin.ch> On 13.03.21 09:17, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I recently bought a core rope memory unit from a Wagner WAC40, mainly because it?s very aesthetically pleasing and looks good on display: https://i.redd.it/h9sb550uhnm61.jpg > > However, i can fine very little about Wagner Computer, the WAC40 (and WAC12), or the man behind the company, G?nter Wagner. Does anyone have any info on any of these subjects? > > This links seems to be all i can find: https://blog.hnf.de/gauner-gelder-und-computer/ > > Thanks, > > Josh Rice It seems to have been a very shady operation. This article https://www.computerwoche.de/a/es-ist-substanz-da,1204762 suggest that about 120 machines were made. ?This article https://www.computerwoche.de/a/keiner-holt-den-computer-ab,1203597 claims that the machine never worked, the seller disappeared overnight, and due taxation on employee salaries were never paid. Wagner core memories to seem to come up every now and then. Maybe ask the seller where they came from ? Jos From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 13 02:26:18 2021 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 08:26:18 +0000 Subject: Looking for gnupro for BeBox BeOs PowerPC In-Reply-To: <2358ffc8-505f-1437-14cb-5c07fc054515@bitsavers.org> References: <9376bcad-1e89-46be-88f2-9b1af6f05c56@bitsavers.org> <2358ffc8-505f-1437-14cb-5c07fc054515@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: It may be worth contacting the Haiku OS project. They have quite a few old BeOS devs working on the project, i?m sure someone would know where to find a copy. Josh From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sat Mar 13 03:51:18 2021 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 10:51:18 +0100 Subject: Wagner WAC40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13.03.21 09:17, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I recently bought a core rope memory unit from a Wagner WAC40, mainly because it?s very aesthetically pleasing and looks good on display: https://i.redd.it/h9sb550uhnm61.jpg > > However, i can fine very little about Wagner Computer, the WAC40 (and WAC12), or the man behind the company, G?nter Wagner. Does anyone have any info on any of these subjects? > > This links seems to be all i can find: https://blog.hnf.de/gauner-gelder-und-computer/ > > Thanks, > > Josh Rice It seems to have been a very shady operation. This article https://www.computerwoche.de/a/es-ist-substanz-da,1204762? suggest that about 120 machines were made. ?This article https://www.computerwoche.de/a/keiner-holt-den-computer-ab,1203597 claims that the machine never worked, the seller disappeared overnight, and due taxation on employee salaries were never paid. Wagner core memories to seem to come up every now and then. Maybe ask the seller where they came from ? Jos From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 13 11:08:47 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 10:08:47 -0700 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 3/11/2021 11:47 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Howdy, > > I more often than not use one of the old style browsers (lynx, dillo > etc). Using search engines with them was rather uncool (unusable links > in search results, wanting to load some bs or js, etc). For this > reason I type my searches using mozilla and very rarely trying this > with duckduckgo and almost never with goog. > > Today I noticed that duckduckgo redirects my classic browsers to > lite.duckduckgo.com and I can use the results. Cool! > > Tried with dillo and w3m. > Is there a way to use all the words in a search. Searches seem to ony find paid advertisements. trying to find 'ECP-18 computer' gave me NO real useful hits on this drum based computer. (Bitsavers did seem have information as well) Ben. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Mar 13 11:11:15 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 09:11:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? In-Reply-To: <9b2eb2f0-d657-473a-fab2-6a85c4931e72@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2a706bf7-36c2-4433-b3ff-8a0783f019b4@jwsss.com> <9b2eb2f0-d657-473a-fab2-6a85c4931e72@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hm. I have a Q bus controller for a Diablo 44 which is the 5mb removable, 5mb > fixed using an RL01 type pack. It emulates 4 RK05's. Same edge connector but > only one of them. > Kind of related, I've got a Diablo Series 30 disk drive (Model 31 H6) that's free to a good home. Local pickup only though - it's a bit on the chubby side to ship. :) I'm in Graham, WA. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 13 11:18:41 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 10:18:41 -0700 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/11/2021 11:47 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Howdy, > > I more often than not use one of the old style browsers (lynx, dillo > etc). Using search engines with them was rather uncool (unusable links > in search results, wanting to load some bs or js, etc). For this > reason I type my searches using mozilla and very rarely trying this > with duckduckgo and almost never with goog. > > Today I noticed that duckduckgo redirects my classic browsers to > lite.duckduckgo.com and I can use the results. Cool! > > Tried with dillo and w3m. > Is there a way to use all the words in a search. Searches seem to only find paid advertisements. trying to find 'ECP-18 computer' gave me NO real useful hits on this drum based computer. (Bitsavers did not seem have information as well) Ben. From mail at schnitz.com Sat Mar 13 11:22:37 2021 From: mail at schnitz.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 12:22:37 -0500 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Mar 13, 2021, at 12:18 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > Is there a way to use all the words in a search. Put each word in quotes individually. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Mar 13 12:05:23 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 13:05:23 -0500 Subject: Wagner WAC40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <991387F3-DEE6-401A-A04E-BD5F8C0FFD26@comcast.net> > On Mar 13, 2021, at 3:17 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > I recently bought a core rope memory unit from a Wagner WAC40, mainly because it?s very aesthetically pleasing and looks good on display: https://i.redd.it/h9sb550uhnm61.jpg Very interesting looking. I can't quite make out what is going on in that rectangular area where all the wires terminate, labeled 0-15 and A-R. Are there diodes there? Anything on the other side of that board? The large cores with all the wires are remisniscent of core rope ROM. If so, I wonder if it's AGC (Lincoln Labs) style, EL-X1 style, or a scheme different from either of those two. paul From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 13 12:34:56 2021 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:34:56 +0000 Subject: Wagner WAC40 In-Reply-To: <991387F3-DEE6-401A-A04E-BD5F8C0FFD26@comcast.net> References: <991387F3-DEE6-401A-A04E-BD5F8C0FFD26@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Very interesting looking. I can't quite make out what is going on in that rectangular area where all the wires terminate, labeled 0-15 and A-R. Are there diodes there? Anything on the other side of that board? Nothing but traces on the other side, though you?re right on them being diodes. > The large cores with all the wires are remisniscent of core rope ROM. If so, I wonder if it's AGC (Lincoln Labs) style, EL-X1 style, or a scheme different from either of those two. It?s definitely some form of core rope ROM. Interestingly, the ferrite rings are built in pairs, with a "selection" coil wrapped around both, joining them. Therefore (i assume, i?m really no expert) they?ll be a positive pulse induced when passing through one coil, but a negative pulse when passed through the opposite coil. This probably helps in differentiating beween a 0, a 1, or a NULL state (ie 0v). I have no idea if that correlates with any particular format of Core Rope, but as far as my eyes can tell, that? how the core rope is woven and functions. I think, though again i?m no expert, that the termination points indicate that this read off a 16 bit word in parallel, instead of working in serial to build up a word. Therefore, it contains 16 (pairs of termination points) x 64 (pairs of ?selection? rings) = 1 kiloword of storage. I may however, to quote Bob Geldof, be talking bollocks. Josh Rice From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 13 13:02:06 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 11:02:06 -0800 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Confession: I'm an old geezer who doesn't understand this internet stuff. But: I didn't have any problems finding information on the ECP-18. https://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2015/02/19/ComputerHarem.html mentioned here: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED041455.pdf 1966 vintage product of Datamate Computer Systems Inc. Bitsavers has a directory for the DM-70, a later system, but there are other numerous mentions on the web. Even epocalc.net turns up a listing for the ECP-18, as well as the ECP-18A. http://www.epocalc.net/php/liste_models.php?texte=ECP-18&look=All+fields&yearmax=2020&nocomp=pc Sometime around 1967, Gamco Industries acquired Datamate. CHM has a marketing brochure for the ECP-18: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102776364 According to a couple of references, the ECP-18 was classified as an "educational computer". But then, I've given you enough information to get started. --Chuck From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 13:43:12 2021 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 13:43:12 -0600 Subject: Help with PCB ID Message-ID: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> I?m wondering if anyone recognizes this PCB. Double-sided, 74xx vintage, measuring 14?x15?. There?s a ?B.I.? logo in one corner, but no google match. IC date codes are ?77/?78 vintage. There?s a pair of DB-25?s, a BCD encoder, and for some reason, two pots. DC rectification appears to take place onboard. I thought perhaps the 112-7753 marking might be a part or catalog number, however the flip side is marked 112-1754, so perhaps not. Anyone recognize it? -Cory https://photos.app.goo.gl/dogAPxn7vLV87YRw9 From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 13:50:52 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 11:50:52 -0800 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 11:43 AM Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > I?m wondering if anyone recognizes this PCB. Double-sided, 74xx vintage, measuring 14?x15?. There?s a ?B.I.? logo in one corner, but no google match. IC date codes are ?77/?78 vintage. That is the Beehive logo. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beehive_B100_terminal https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Beehive_B100_keyboard_pcb_logos.jpg From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 13:51:07 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 11:51:07 -0800 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 11:43 AM Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?m wondering if anyone recognizes this PCB. Double-sided, 74xx vintage, > measuring 14?x15?. There?s a ?B.I.? logo in one corner, but no google > match. IC date codes are ?77/?78 vintage. > > There?s a pair of DB-25?s, a BCD encoder, and for some reason, two pots. > DC rectification appears to take place onboard. I thought perhaps the > 112-7753 marking might be a part or catalog number, however the flip side > is marked 112-1754, so perhaps not. > > Anyone recognize it? -Cory > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/dogAPxn7vLV87YRw9 > > My guess is it's a logic board from a Beehive International terminal. No idea what model though. - Josh From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 13:55:48 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 11:55:48 -0800 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 11:43 AM Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > There?s a pair of DB-25?s, a BCD encoder, and for some reason, two pots. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/dogAPxn7vLV87YRw9 Brightness and Contrast pots. BCD encoder switch for Baudrate. https://deskthority.net/wiki/images/1/1a/Beehive_B100_terminal_back.jpg From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 13 13:56:18 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 12:56:18 -0700 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/13/2021 12:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > But then, I've given you enough information to get started. > > --Chuck > Sadly No. Some good reading but, I guess another classic computer design is lost forever, as well as the VAN with the IBM 1130 in it. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 13 14:04:08 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 12:04:08 -0800 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/13/21 11:43 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > I?m wondering if anyone recognizes this PCB. Double-sided, 74xx vintage, measuring 14?x15?. There?s a ?B.I.? logo in one corner, but no google match. IC date codes are ?77/?78 vintage. > > There?s a pair of DB-25?s, a BCD encoder, and for some reason, two pots. DC rectification appears to take place onboard. I thought perhaps the 112-7753 marking might be a part or catalog number, however the flip side is marked 112-1754, so perhaps not. > > Anyone recognize it? -Cory > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/dogAPxn7vLV87YRw9 Looks like the board from a B100. Note the connectors and switches on rear panel that seem to correspond with this: https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Beehive_B100_terminal_back.jpg --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 14:29:14 2021 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 15:29:14 -0500 Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yup, cute little printer; want one? On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 9:55 PM Stan Sieler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Bingo, David nailed it! > > (The HP DeskJet Portable) > > Thanks! > > Stan > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:31 PM wrote: > > > How about this... > > > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=311 > > > > David Collins > > www.hpmuseum.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Stan Sieler > via > > cctalk > > Sent: Friday, 12 March 2021 6:22 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 > > > > Hi, > > > > Does anyone remember the product name or number of the tiny HP portable > > printer (*not* an HP 2225 of any kind!) that probably came out about the > > same time as the HP Omnibook 300 (1993)? > > (My google-fu failed me.) > > > > IIRC, it was able to print on regular paper 8.5" wide, probably using a > > thinkjet mechanism. > > Battery powered, probably black, probably HP-IL interface. > > > > I remember coveting one when I got my first Omnibook, but by that time > > they were off the market and the only one I ever saw wasn't for sale (I > did > > borrow it for a few days, it worked well). > > The use of standard (in the U.S.) paper, plus the tiny size, had be > > interested in it. > > > > thanks, > > > > Stan > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 14:42:31 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 15:42:31 -0500 Subject: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? In-Reply-To: References: <2a706bf7-36c2-4433-b3ff-8a0783f019b4@jwsss.com> <9b2eb2f0-d657-473a-fab2-6a85c4931e72@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 12:11 PM geneb via cctalk wrote: > Kind of related, I've got a Diablo Series 30 disk drive (Model 31 H6) > that's free to a good home. Local pickup only though - it's a bit on the > chubby side to ship. :) I'm in Graham, WA. I wish I was a lot closer. I lost a Diablo 31 in a basement flood in the 80s and I haven't come across a replacement for it. It was really an "RK03" including the connector adapters for BC11 cables, but those I sold off to someone who was going to use them. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 13 14:49:39 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 12:49:39 -0800 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> On 3/13/21 11:56 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 3/13/2021 12:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> But then, I've given you enough information to get started. >> >> --Chuck >> > > Sadly No. Some good reading but, I guess another classic computer design > is lost forever, > as well as the VAN with the IBM 1130 in it. > Ben. > Oh, c'mon--with another 5 minutes of browsing, I discovered that the ECP-18 was developed by Allen Fulmer, mathematics instructor at OCE (Oregon College of Education) under an NSF grant that dates back to 1960. He published a paper on it. Here's an article about the 1960 NSF award: https://digitalcommons.wou.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1023&context=oregoncollege_lamron_volume37 OCE is now part of Western Oregon University in Monmoth. Doubtless they have some stuff by Fulmer buried in their stacks. Back before the Intertubes, we used to do research the hard way--sometimes it took months or years to dig information up. Not everything is online. The question arises: "Is this something that seriously interests you and you're willing dedicate some real effort to? Or is this just a slow Saturday question?" I'm sure that Fred could tell you about doing serious research. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 13 14:54:28 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 12:54:28 -0800 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <04f1e314-e61a-5f55-7e1a-9115cef69a6f@sydex.com> Also, if you bother to follow some of the links, you get this: "My freshman year in high school the math department was considering purchasing a simple electronic educational computer. It was called an ECP-18. It has 1024 15 bit words of drum memory. It had the coolest front panel. You programmed it in machine language by toggling in the instructions." And that person is probably still alive and could give you some information. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 13 15:05:50 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:05:50 -0700 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/13/2021 1:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/13/21 11:56 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/13/2021 12:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> But then, I've given you enough information to get started. >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >> >> Sadly No. Some good reading but, I guess another classic computer design >> is lost forever, >> as well as the VAN with the IBM 1130 in it. >> Ben. >> > > Oh, c'mon--with another 5 minutes of browsing, I discovered that the > ECP-18 was developed by Allen Fulmer, mathematics instructor at OCE > (Oregon College of Education) under an NSF grant that dates back to > 1960. He published a paper on it. > Well I am using Duck Duck Go, from CANADA. > Here's an article about the 1960 NSF award: > > https://digitalcommons.wou.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1023&context=oregoncollege_lamron_volume37 > > OCE is now part of Western Oregon University in Monmoth. Doubtless they > have some stuff by Fulmer buried in their stacks. > > Back before the Intertubes, we used to do research the hard > way--sometimes it took months or years to dig information up. Not > everything is online. I have not yet checked the internet archive yet. > The question arises: "Is this something that seriously interests you > and you're willing dedicate some real effort to? Or is this just a > slow Saturday question?" > > I'm sure that Fred could tell you about doing serious research. I suspect that means spending money, or travelling around. > --Chuck Well I live in the middle of CANADA, no where for computing. If I could hit the the stacks I would. I just want the basic information, word length , memory etc. A simple on line FAQ would work nicely, like the PDP 8 FAQ. Ben. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Mar 13 15:10:11 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:10:11 -0700 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 1:04 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/13/21 11:43 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > I?m wondering if anyone recognizes this PCB. Double-sided, 74xx > vintage, measuring 14?x15?. There?s a ?B.I.? logo in one corner, but no > google match. IC date codes are ?77/?78 vintage. > > > > There?s a pair of DB-25?s, a BCD encoder, and for some reason, two pots. > DC rectification appears to take place onboard. I thought perhaps the > 112-7753 marking might be a part or catalog number, however the flip side > is marked 112-1754, so perhaps not. > > > > Anyone recognize it? -Cory > > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/dogAPxn7vLV87YRw9 > > Looks like the board from a B100. Note the connectors and switches on > rear panel that seem to correspond with this: > > https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Beehive_B100_terminal_back.jpg It matches my recollection of the day I took the one we had a school... secretly so the teachers wouldn't get mad... Warner > --Chuck > From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sat Mar 13 15:24:03 2021 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 22:24:03 +0100 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: <681d76cd-1aeb-0e79-c5aa-b62ba080978a@bluewin.ch> On 13.03.21 20:43, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > I?m wondering if anyone recognizes this PCB. Double-sided, 74xx vintage, measuring 14?x15?. There?s a ?B.I.? logo in one corner, but no google match. IC date codes are ?77/?78 vintage. > > There?s a pair of DB-25?s, a BCD encoder, and for some reason, two pots. DC rectification appears to take place onboard. I thought perhaps the 112-7753 marking might be a part or catalog number, however the flip side is marked 112-1754, so perhaps not. > > Anyone recognize it? -Cory > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/dogAPxn7vLV87YRw9 > The exact same board is currently laying on my bench awaiting repair. It comes out a Cromemco 3101, which is indeed a rebadged Beehive B100 Jos From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 15:48:13 2021 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 15:48:13 -0600 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: <681d76cd-1aeb-0e79-c5aa-b62ba080978a@bluewin.ch> References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> <681d76cd-1aeb-0e79-c5aa-b62ba080978a@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > On Mar 13, 2021, at 3:24 PM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > On 13.03.21 20:43, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: >> I?m wondering if anyone recognizes this PCB. Double-sided, 74xx vintage, measuring 14?x15?. There?s a ?B.I.? logo in one corner, but no google match. IC date codes are ?77/?78 vintage. >> >> There?s a pair of DB-25?s, a BCD encoder, and for some reason, two pots. DC rectification appears to take place onboard. I thought perhaps the 112-7753 marking might be a part or catalog number, however the flip side is marked 112-1754, so perhaps not. >> >> Anyone recognize it? -Cory >> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/dogAPxn7vLV87YRw9 >> > The exact same board is currently laying on my bench awaiting repair. > > It comes out a Cromemco 3101, which is indeed a rebadged Beehive B100 > > > Jos > Wow, you guys are good! I?ve had this board for years but can?t recall just where I obtained it. Thanks for the info, I would have never guessed. -C From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 13 16:25:58 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:25:58 -0800 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <32a3bcf3-97a1-6c0c-54a4-730df7a1a1b7@sydex.com> On 3/13/21 1:05 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Well I live in the middle of CANADA, no where for computing. If I could > hit the the > stacks I would. I just want the basic information, word length , memory > etc. A simple on line FAQ would work nicely, like the PDP 8 FAQ. Ben. Well, you've already got that: 15 bits x 1024 words of drum memory. The Datamate 70 of 1970, on the other hand, seems to be patterned after the DG Nova. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/datamate/DM70_RefMan.pdf --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 13 16:30:03 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:30:03 -0800 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <35204f7a-7363-68fd-5985-544e4b51f9a9@sydex.com> I strongly suspect that this is the same fellow who published a paper on the ECP-18. You might drop him an email: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allen-fulmer-a4bb5b29 Forget DDG--I use google with an anti-tracking plugin. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 13 17:54:43 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 15:54:43 -0800 Subject: Help with PCB ID In-Reply-To: References: <854AA734-3B31-483B-A9B1-77BFFA3A9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/13/21 1:10 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > It matches my recollection of the day I took the one we had a school... > secretly so the teachers wouldn't get mad... Never cared for the B100. The slab-sided Super Bee, on the other hand was a marvel. Good LDS engineering. Beehive, toward the end, did make a VT 220 clone. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 13 18:40:01 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 16:40:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On 3/13/2021 1:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I'm sure that Fred could tell you about doing serious research. On Sat, 13 Mar 2021, ben via cctalk wrote: > I suspect that means spending money, or travelling around. Well, I don't know from "SERIOUS". and, I don't spend money, and hardly never travel, anymore. Never pass up the chance to hear from those who were THERE! Folk such as Chuck are the greatest information resource there is. You might not get much response, but try to contact those who were involved, or at least present. And, in the spirit of teaching to such eggs, . . . In using information retrieval search engines, PRECISION VS RECALL are at the expense of each other. Go for maximum RECALL, because you can always do your own relevance ranking to increase PRECISION of the recalled set, but only if you got the maximum RECALL to have the hits in your set. (My biggest contribution was pointing out that when quantifying the "best possible" results, one needs to also quantify the "worst possible". Nobody agreed that the integral under the curve was a good quantification of a RECALL/PRECISION curve.) And, always remember that because search algorithms are relevance ranking of overlaps with search terms, synonyms, or co-appearing words, therefore, instead of putting a "SUBJECT" in the query, you need to put in whatever words seem most likely to be in the result that you are looking for. Even if that means getting some Apatasaurus when you were looking for "dinosaur" mainframes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sieler at allegro.com Sat Mar 13 23:03:06 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 21:03:06 -0800 Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I think I've finally decided: yes. :) It looks like Fred C. might have one, so I will wait to hear from him. thanks! Stan On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 12:29 PM Mike Stein wrote: > Yup, cute little printer; want one? > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 9:55 PM Stan Sieler via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Bingo, David nailed it! >> >> (The HP DeskJet Portable) >> >> Thanks! >> >> Stan >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:31 PM wrote: >> >> > How about this... >> > >> > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=311 >> > >> > David Collins >> > www.hpmuseum.net >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Stan Sieler >> via >> > cctalk >> > Sent: Friday, 12 March 2021 6:22 PM >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> > Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > Does anyone remember the product name or number of the tiny HP portable >> > printer (*not* an HP 2225 of any kind!) that probably came out about the >> > same time as the HP Omnibook 300 (1993)? >> > (My google-fu failed me.) >> > >> > IIRC, it was able to print on regular paper 8.5" wide, probably using a >> > thinkjet mechanism. >> > Battery powered, probably black, probably HP-IL interface. >> > >> > I remember coveting one when I got my first Omnibook, but by that time >> > they were off the market and the only one I ever saw wasn't for sale (I >> did >> > borrow it for a few days, it worked well). >> > The use of standard (in the U.S.) paper, plus the tiny size, had be >> > interested in it. >> > >> > thanks, >> > >> > Stan >> > >> > >> > From compoobah at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 08:53:58 2021 From: compoobah at gmail.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 06:53:58 -0700 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <53041e0eb8275b6c7048c24614d83eb0619ad204.camel@gmail.com> > > > The question arises: "Is this something that seriously interests > > you > > and you're willing dedicate some real effort to? Or is this just > > a > > slow Saturday question?" > > > > I'm sure that Fred could tell you about doing serious research. > > I suspect that means spending money, or travelling around. > > > --Chuck > > Well I live in the middle of CANADA, no where for computing. If I > could > hit the the > stacks I would. I just want the basic information, word length , > memory > etc. A simple on line FAQ would work nicely, like the PDP 8 FAQ. Ben. > There may or may not be one. As for research, check around at a couple of your libraries. ILL is often possible, and a number of librarians consider this sort of unusual question fun. Sure beats "where's the bathroom?" "Why are you charging me for this book, my dog only ate half?" and "why can't I watch porn on the computers in the children's section?" With many libraries closed to the public you'll be more likely to have a librarian wanting a good challenge too. Depending on policy and what they find they may be able to scan and send it (sometimes for a small fee), other times it is in-person access only, depends on the institution. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 10:20:05 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 11:20:05 -0400 Subject: Wagner WAC40 In-Reply-To: References: <991387F3-DEE6-401A-A04E-BD5F8C0FFD26@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 13, 2021, at 1:34 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > >> Very interesting looking. I can't quite make out what is going on in that rectangular area where all the wires terminate, labeled 0-15 and A-R. Are there diodes there? Anything on the other side of that board? > > Nothing but traces on the other side, though you?re right on them being diodes. > >> The large cores with all the wires are remisniscent of core rope ROM. If so, I wonder if it's AGC (Lincoln Labs) style, EL-X1 style, or a scheme different from either of those two. > > It?s definitely some form of core rope ROM. > > Interestingly, the ferrite rings are built in pairs, with a "selection" coil wrapped around both, joining them. Therefore (i assume, i?m really no expert) they?ll be a positive pulse induced when passing through one coil, but a negative pulse when passed through the opposite coil. This probably helps in differentiating beween a 0, a 1, or a NULL state (ie 0v). > > I have no idea if that correlates with any particular format of Core Rope, but as far as my eyes can tell, that? how the core rope is woven and functions. The key component of core rope memory (and X1 ROM) is square-loop cores, like the cores used in conventional read/write core memory. There is another kind of core ROM where the cores are simply transformer cores. Since you mentioned a "selection" coil, chances are that's what we're dealing with here. Brent Hilpert has a great writeup on a number of the technologies used. http://madrona.ca/e/corerope/index.html paul From macro at orcam.me.uk Sun Mar 14 10:32:20 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:32:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 2021, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > The 286 can exit protected mode with the LOADALL instruction. > > Really? So why all the hullabaloo about Triple Faults: > > http://www.rcollins.org/Productivity/TripleFault.html > > back in the day; and why did IBM set up the keyboard controller so it could > send a RESET signal (so people could get out of protected mode)? Or is it > that LOADALL (which was also undocumented early on, so maybe that's why the > IBM thing) could be used to cause a triple fault? The existence of LOADALL (used for in-circuit emulation, a predecessor technique to modern JTAG debugging and the instruction the modern x86 RSM instruction grew from) in the 80286 wasn't public information for a very long time, and you won't find it in public Intel 80286 CPU documentation even today. Even if IBM engineers knew of its existence at the time the PC/AT was being designed, surely they have decided not to rely in their design on something not guaranteed by the CPU manufacturer to exist. As to why they choose to add the keyboard controller hack I think the article referred gives a hypothesis that is as good as you can get: they were not clever enough. Back in the day this wasn't the only fault they made and it was a harmless one anyway, because you didn't have to use the hack in your software if you knew the proper way. Much worse was the mess around the incorrect wiring of the FPU exception line (to IRQ #13 via additional glue logic rather than its dedicated CPU input), which could have been easily avoided while retaining PC/XT compatibility in a manner similar to how it was implemented in the BIOS for IRQ #13. Consequently functionality of the exception was lost (the exception was supposed to be precise unlike obviously the external IRQ) and also if you were not careful enough in handling it, the machine would lock up hard and you'd have to hit the reset button. The mess with the FPU exception was actually one of the two reasons to drop 32-bit x86 Linux support for the original 80386 CPU several years ago (the other one was the lack of write protection in the kernel mode for user pages). Support now starts from the 80486: $ uname -mrsv Linux 5.11.0+ #13 Mon Mar 8 00:14:59 CET 2021 i486 $ Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 14 11:33:43 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:33:43 -0000 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <001001d712e0$9cf97f50$d6ec7df0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000b01d712dc$538d6740$faa835c0$@ntlworld.com> <60440E20.6090700@charter.net> <001001d712e0$9cf97f50$d6ec7df0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <006201d718ef$cc8fb760$65af2620$@ntlworld.com> I should update people on this as I have made progress today. I found two broken tracks from the 8742 peripheral controller to the ASICs. One of the ASICs sends a RESET to the 286. When I repaired that track suddenly the protected mode test started to pass. Now I have other errors which are almost certainly other bad tracks, although these errors are more intermittent so it could be a track that is partially damaged. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt > Sent: 06 March 2021 23:30 > To: 'Richard Pope' ; rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: 80286 Protected Mode Test > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Pope > > Sent: 06 March 2021 23:20 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; > > General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: 80286 Protected Mode Test > > > > Rob, > > There is probably hidden damage to the motherboard. The acid will > follow > > the traces inside the board and consume them. There is no way to stop > > this kind of damage. Sorry for the bad news. > > I should have said that I have found a few bad tracks and I have fixed them > by adding wires. Previously it would not even POST, but it does now. The > CPU is physically distant from the battery damage. I am trying to understand > if this particular test could fail due to external factors or not so that I can then > investigate if there are other tracks I need to fix. > > Incidentally, my repair wires are done very badly, are there any tips on how > to do this well? I have ordered some wire wrap wire because I believe that is > what I should be using, but I haven't got the wire yet. > > Thanks > > Rob > > > GOD Bless and Thanks, > > rich! > > > > On 3/6/2021 4:59 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a DECstation 220 (Olivetti M250E) which is failing POST on a > > > "simple test of the 80286 protected mode". It says in a service > > > manual I have that for this test the CPU is set in the protected > > > mode, the machine status word is checked to see whether it indicates > > > the protected mode and then exits protected mode. This test seems to > > > be failing. Is there any possible explanation for this other than a > > > failed 80286 CPU? Could there be any external reason? This board > > > suffered some battery leak damage. Clearly the > > > 80286 is working well enough to execute this diagnostic and send > > > some text to the screen, so it basically works. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > From abs at absd.org Sun Mar 14 13:08:11 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 18:08:11 +0000 Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) Message-ID: I have acquired a tiny slice of Orange Wall, and wondered if anyone would be interested - preference for anyone who is setup to scan and upload the missing bits to bitsavers or similar :) These seem to already be generally available online EK-NETAB-UG-002 Workstations and MicroVAX 2000 Network Guide EK-VAXAB-OM-002 VAXstation 2000 Owner's Manual (Covers how to replace your mouse balls, and details exciting options such as LN03, LN03 PLUS, LPS40, LA210, LA100, LA75, LA50. LGC01, LVP16, DF224, DF124, DF112, VSXXX-AB :-p) These I cannot immediately find EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 and VAXmate Network Guide EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware Installation Guide Likewise these German versions EK-NETGA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 und VAXmate Netzwerk-Anleitung EK-A0305-IN 001 VR160 Installations-und Bedienungsanleitung EK-A0355-OG-001 Grafikkoprozessor (8 Bildebenen) fur die VAXstation 2000 Installations- und Bedienungsanleitung Thanks David From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Mar 14 13:09:40 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:09:40 +0100 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 04:32:20PM +0100, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 7 Mar 2021, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> The 286 can exit protected mode with the LOADALL instruction. [...] > The existence of LOADALL (used for in-circuit emulation, a predecessor > technique to modern JTAG debugging and the instruction the modern x86 RSM > instruction grew from) in the 80286 wasn't public information for a very > long time, and you won't find it in public Intel 80286 CPU documentation > even today. Even if IBM engineers knew of its existence at the time the > PC/AT was being designed, surely they have decided not to rely in their > design on something not guaranteed by the CPU manufacturer to exist. The Wikipedia page on LOADALL claims "The 80286 LOADALL instruction can not be used to switch from protected back to real mode (it can't clear the PE bit in the MSW). However, use of the LOADALL instruction can avoid the need to switch to protected mode altogether." I find that paragraph very persuasive. The author knows about LOADALL and the desire to use it to avoid going into protected mode, and also explains that there's a specific exception in its behaviour which prevents returning to real mode. All of the other hacky uses of LOADALL would be unnecessary if it could be used to switch modes at will. It just doesn't seem like something that would be written if it was wrong. Is Wikipedia incorrect and the 286 LOADALL *can* exit protected mode, and if so, how? From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 14 13:36:44 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 11:36:44 -0700 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> On 3/14/21 11:09 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 04:32:20PM +0100, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: >> On Sun, 7 Mar 2021, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>>> The 286 can exit protected mode with the LOADALL instruction. > [...] >> The existence of LOADALL (used for in-circuit emulation, a predecessor >> technique to modern JTAG debugging and the instruction the modern x86 RSM >> instruction grew from) in the 80286 wasn't public information for a very >> long time, and you won't find it in public Intel 80286 CPU documentation >> even today. Even if IBM engineers knew of its existence at the time the >> PC/AT was being designed, surely they have decided not to rely in their >> design on something not guaranteed by the CPU manufacturer to exist. I can say with a fair amount of certainty, that we at IBM knew of the existence of the LOADALL instructions including all of it's warts (and its inability to switch back from protected mode) from the earliest days. There were many heated discussions in various task forces (this was of course IBM) about the next generation OS (to become OS/2) about the '286.? First and foremost was how to be able to run DOS programs on the '286. Over very vocal opposition, management decided to use "mode switching" rather than any of the other techniques.? It should be noted, that a significant portion of us advocated abandoning the '286 in favor of the '386 to solve this problem.? The argument that management made against that approach assumed that OS/2 would be ready in 9 months and that the '386 would be late ('386 at the time was about 12-18 months away).? It turned out that OS/2 took well over 18 months to develop. At the time I was fairly familiar with the LOADALL instruction.? I had modified PC/AT Xenix to use the LOADALL instruction to allow for running Xenix programs and multiple DOS programs simultaneously.? I gave multiple demos to various folks in management but to no avail.? They had decided that mode switching as *the* way that OS/2 was going to work. I should also note, that the other way to get back to real mode from protected mode is via a triple-fault.? What gets me (and I railed on Intel when I worked there for a time) that it still existing in the architecture even though they have a machine check architecture now (which while at IBM pushed Intel to implement for the '386!). > The Wikipedia page on LOADALL claims "The 80286 LOADALL instruction can not > be used to switch from protected back to real mode (it can't clear the PE > bit in the MSW). However, use of the LOADALL instruction can avoid the need > to switch to protected mode altogether." > > I find that paragraph very persuasive. The author knows about LOADALL and > the desire to use it to avoid going into protected mode, and also explains > that there's a specific exception in its behaviour which prevents returning > to real mode. All of the other hacky uses of LOADALL would be unnecessary if > it could be used to switch modes at will. It just doesn't seem like > something that would be written if it was wrong. > > Is Wikipedia incorrect and the 286 LOADALL *can* exit protected mode, and if > so, how? > -- TTFN - Guy From lproven at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 13:53:38 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:53:38 +0100 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 at 19:37, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > There were many heated discussions in various task forces (this was of > course IBM) about the next generation OS (to become OS/2) about the > '286. First and foremost was how to be able to run DOS programs on the > '286. Over very vocal opposition, management decided to use "mode > switching" rather than any of the other techniques. It should be noted, > that a significant portion of us advocated abandoning the '286 in favor > of the '386 to solve this problem. The argument that management made > against that approach assumed that OS/2 would be ready in 9 months and > that the '386 would be late ('386 at the time was about 12-18 months > away). It turned out that OS/2 took well over 18 months to develop. I will say this, Guy, your posts never cease to amaze me and provide valuable insight! I was on the sidelines at the time -- at university, reading about this stuff in the UK computer mags. From outside too it was very obvious that OS/2 should target the 386. When I started work, I was in tech support in an IBM value-added reseller -- that's where I learned about IBMCACHE.SYS, which we talked of a few years back -- and I can confirm that most PS/2 owners were not at all interested in OS/2. A handful ran 3Com 3+Share or Netware 2 on PS/2 boxes as the server, but most 286 PS/2s were workstations. Only the 386 Model 80 sold almost exclusively as servers. I still have one myself. > At the time I was fairly familiar with the LOADALL instruction. I had > modified PC/AT Xenix to use the LOADALL instruction to allow for running > Xenix programs and multiple DOS programs simultaneously. I gave > multiple demos to various folks in management but to no avail. They had > decided that mode switching as *the* way that OS/2 was going to work. :'( > I should also note, that the other way to get back to real mode from > protected mode is via a triple-fault. What gets me (and I railed on > Intel when I worked there for a time) that it still existing in the > architecture even though they have a machine check architecture now > (which while at IBM pushed Intel to implement for the '386!). (!) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 14 14:19:29 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:19:29 -0600 Subject: Classic browsing and duckduckgo In-Reply-To: <35204f7a-7363-68fd-5985-544e4b51f9a9@sydex.com> References: <20210312064752.GA23560@tau1.ceti.pl> <6b98660d-7aed-d2cc-6134-5f165d3e29f2@jetnet.ab.ca> <28811a2d-dd0d-7aa4-140e-0f6086d2fa26@jetnet.ab.ca> <08fab6ad-6777-f27b-3f6c-0ef813a173a4@sydex.com> <736d2988-e8f6-5584-d559-44d03aa1453c@jetnet.ab.ca> <35204f7a-7363-68fd-5985-544e4b51f9a9@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/13/2021 3:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I strongly suspect that this is the same fellow who published a paper on > the ECP-18. You might drop him an email: > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/allen-fulmer-a4bb5b29 > > Forget DDG--I use google with an anti-tracking plugin. > > --Chuck > I can see that for DDG. A bulls eye pops up and you shoot any passing ducks.I thought DDG might give fewer advertisements than google. Searching is becoming almost useless on the web, I found a email contact, and got the information wanted. Quite a nice DIY system. Ben. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 14 14:25:02 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:25:02 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006301d71907$bb868620$32939260$@ntlworld.com> I would be interested in EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 and VAXmate Network Guide and the EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware Installation Guide would be nice if you get no takers. You don't say where you are located. I suspect shipping from the USA to the UK would be too expensive, or is this in Germany? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of David Brownlee > via cctalk > Sent: 14 March 2021 18:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) > > I have acquired a tiny slice of Orange Wall, and wondered if anyone would be > interested - preference for anyone who is setup to scan and upload the > missing bits to bitsavers or similar :) > > These seem to already be generally available online > EK-NETAB-UG-002 Workstations and MicroVAX 2000 Network Guide > EK-VAXAB-OM-002 VAXstation 2000 Owner's Manual (Covers how to replace > your mouse balls, and details exciting options such as LN03, LN03 PLUS, > LPS40, LA210, LA100, LA75, LA50. LGC01, LVP16, DF224, DF124, DF112, VSXXX- > AB :-p) > > These I cannot immediately find > EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 and VAXmate Network > Guide > EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware Installation Guide > > Likewise these German versions > EK-NETGA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 und VAXmate > Netzwerk-Anleitung EK-A0305-IN 001 VR160 Installations-und > Bedienungsanleitung > EK-A0355-OG-001 Grafikkoprozessor (8 Bildebenen) fur die VAXstation 2000 > Installations- und Bedienungsanleitung > > Thanks > > David From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 14 15:42:20 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > There were many heated discussions in various task forces (this was of course > IBM) about the next generation OS (to become OS/2) about the '286.?? First > and foremost was how to be able to run DOS programs on the '286. Over very > vocal opposition, management decided to use "mode switching" rather than any > of the other techniques.?? It should be noted, that a significant portion of > us advocated abandoning the '286 in favor of the '386 to solve this > problem.?? The argument that management made against that approach assumed > that OS/2 would be ready in 9 months and that the '386 would be late ('386 at > the time was about 12-18 months away).?? It turned out that OS/2 took well > over 18 months to develop. The 80286 was an important step. Getting 24 bits of address, instead of 20 was significant. It is too bad that they weren't able to set it aside until they got the next couple of steps (ala 80386) to be able to make better use of those address bits. HIMEM.SYS (enabling A20 and using it to "overflow" past 1MB by 65K-16) became a ubiquitus kludge. Gordon Letwin (the Microsoft author of OS/2) said that mode switching on 80286 was "like turning off the car to change gears." Even Bill Gates said that the 80286 was "BRAIN DEAD". Segment:Offset had been developed as a kludge to be able to expand from 16 bit address (64K), while maintaining almost full compatability. Yes, a flat memory model IS the way to go. But, they couldn't see a way to abandon Segment:Offset without abandoning compatability with all previously existing software. Programs, such as Wordstar were ported from CP/M to PC in significantly less time than it took to re-edit their documentation! In contrast, Apple chose to abandon compatability with all previously existing software, and did have a period of time with nothing but Mac-Write, Mac-Paint, Wac-Write, and Mac-Paint. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 14 16:17:39 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 14:17:39 -0700 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <765a8737-c199-4401-1fb0-73c92b8792c2@bitsavers.org> On 3/14/21 1:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > In contrast, Apple chose to abandon compatability with all previously existing software When they stopped selling Apple II's when Lisa was released. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 14 16:30:27 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 14:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <765a8737-c199-4401-1fb0-73c92b8792c2@bitsavers.org> References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> <765a8737-c199-4401-1fb0-73c92b8792c2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> In contrast, Apple chose to abandon compatability with all previously >> existing software On Sun, 14 Mar 2021, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > When they stopped selling Apple II's when Lisa was released. Yes, exactly. I was referring to the switch to 68000 (Lisa and then Mac), rather than trying to kludge more address onto a 6502. I assume that their 68000 wasn't fast enough to get acceptable performance with a 6502 emulator. To their credit, they did continue to keep some models of 6502 Apple2's available even while selling some 68000 machines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mdehling at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 14:33:26 2021 From: mdehling at gmail.com (Malte Dehling) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 20:33:26 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) Message-ID: <604e6509.1c69fb81.21ba1.7aaf@mx.google.com> I'd be interested in the guides if you're located in Germany, and I do have access to a book scanner. Best, MalteOn Mar 14, 2021 19:08, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > > I have acquired a tiny slice of Orange Wall, and wondered if anyone would > be interested - preference for anyone who is setup to scan and upload the > missing bits to bitsavers or similar :) > > These seem to already be generally available online > EK-NETAB-UG-002 Workstations and MicroVAX 2000 Network Guide > EK-VAXAB-OM-002 VAXstation 2000 Owner's Manual (Covers how to replace your > mouse balls, and details exciting options such as LN03, LN03 PLUS, LPS40, > LA210, LA100, LA75, LA50. LGC01, LVP16, DF224, DF124, DF112, VSXXX-AB :-p) > > These I cannot immediately find > EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 and VAXmate Network Guide > EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware Installation Guide > > Likewise these German versions > EK-NETGA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 und VAXmate > Netzwerk-Anleitung > EK-A0305-IN 001 VR160 Installations-und Bedienungsanleitung > EK-A0355-OG-001 Grafikkoprozessor (8 Bildebenen) fur die VAXstation 2000 > Installations- und Bedienungsanleitung > > Thanks > > David From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 14 17:07:18 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 15:07:18 -0700 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 3/14/21 11:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > I can say with a fair amount of certainty, that we at IBM knew of the > existence of the LOADALL instructions including all of it's warts (and > its inability to switch back from protected mode) from the earliest days. > ca. 1980, we were in search of a decent 16-bit processor for upward migration. Code base compatibility wasn't much of a concern--we were resigned to the prospect that everything had to be recoded, so code migration wasn't a concern. We played a bit with the 8086, but couldn't see a path forward in the immediate future. So we in engineering decided that the best CPU was the Moto 68K and we wrapped up a test board and started cutting some code for it. Bill Davidow was on our BOD and when he got wind of our efforts, he nearly went through the roof. When we defended our decision by saying that the 8086 was limited in possibilities, with the rumored iAPX432 nowhere near reality, so the 68K was the logical next step. Zilog had their Z800, but after looking at the cost of the MMU and the fact that it, too was a segmented memory CPU and slower than the 68K, we never got any farther than talking about it. We did have an Onyx box for software development in the lab, however. Bill put us on the OEM pre-release steppings for both the 186 and the 286. We got the 186 going long before the 286 (Intel, IIRC, had taken on the job of writing the Xenix kernel for Microsoft). Davidow's stubbornness cost us months of product delay in getting a multi-user system out the door. We certainly were not advised about the LOADALL instruction at that time. Nor, I suspect would it have made much of a difference. In our system, the 186 did the I/O heavy lifting for the 286. My impression was that the design for the 286 never envisioned the need to switch back and forth between real and protected mode. We never did. --Chuck From macro at orcam.me.uk Sun Mar 14 20:41:50 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 02:41:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I should also note, that the other way to get back to real mode from > > protected mode is via a triple-fault. What gets me (and I railed on > > Intel when I worked there for a time) that it still existing in the > > architecture even though they have a machine check architecture now > > (which while at IBM pushed Intel to implement for the '386!). > > (!) Well, software exists that relies on the triple-fault feature for reboots including current versions of Linux (you can trigger a triple-fault in the real mode too). These days it is implemented by the southbridge catching the shutdown special cycle on PCI and asserting the reset pin to the CPU (the details might be slightly different for PCIe or HyperTransport). Back in the day I experimented with that stuff myself and all the weird ways to switch between modes with the x86, setting the IDTR in the real mode for interesting effects which would impress fellow students, etc. I ended up writing this: as a result. I wrote a simple resident VM86 monitor for DOS too, just to fiddle with processor features. Also resetting the CPU with the shutdown code of 0xa put at the location 0xf of the RTC/NVRAM chip was the only way to get the family, model, and stepping ID in the EDX register for old processors that did not have the CPUID instruction (i.e. all 80386 and many 80486 implementations), unless the system BIOS clobbered it for no good reason in the short bypass code involved (sadly sometimes that did happen). I just double-checked my old DOS assembly code to see if I got the details right! NB I didn't know LOADALL would not work for switching from the protected to the real mode and did not find out about the instruction until after I already lost access to any 80286 hardware, so I never experimented with it myself. Maciej From abs at absd.org Mon Mar 15 04:42:30 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 09:42:30 +0000 Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) In-Reply-To: <006301d71907$bb868620$32939260$@ntlworld.com> References: <006301d71907$bb868620$32939260$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Rob I forgot to mention I'm in the UK :) I had another email in from someone in Germany who has access to a book scanner - if you're setup to scan and upload EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation & EK-VAXAB-IN-002 I'm happy to part them out to you as you emailed first - let me know David On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 at 19:25, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would be interested in EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 > and VAXmate Network Guide and the EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware > Installation Guide would be nice if you get no takers. You don't say where > you are located. I suspect shipping from the USA to the UK would be too > expensive, or is this in Germany? > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of David Brownlee > > via cctalk > > Sent: 14 March 2021 18:08 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) > > > > I have acquired a tiny slice of Orange Wall, and wondered if anyone > would be > > interested - preference for anyone who is setup to scan and upload the > > missing bits to bitsavers or similar :) > > > > These seem to already be generally available online > > EK-NETAB-UG-002 Workstations and MicroVAX 2000 Network Guide > > EK-VAXAB-OM-002 VAXstation 2000 Owner's Manual (Covers how to replace > > your mouse balls, and details exciting options such as LN03, LN03 PLUS, > > LPS40, LA210, LA100, LA75, LA50. LGC01, LVP16, DF224, DF124, DF112, > VSXXX- > > AB :-p) > > > > These I cannot immediately find > > EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 and VAXmate Network > > Guide > > EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware Installation Guide > > > > Likewise these German versions > > EK-NETGA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 und VAXmate > > Netzwerk-Anleitung EK-A0305-IN 001 VR160 Installations-und > > Bedienungsanleitung > > EK-A0355-OG-001 Grafikkoprozessor (8 Bildebenen) fur die VAXstation 2000 > > Installations- und Bedienungsanleitung > > > > Thanks > > > > David > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 08:16:59 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 14:16:59 +0100 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> References: <20210307144030.D620618C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <575b5c3f-5e98-3a76-94bf-071ebf7afca6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 at 19:37, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > At the time I was fairly familiar with the LOADALL instruction. I had > modified PC/AT Xenix to use the LOADALL instruction to allow for running > Xenix programs and multiple DOS programs simultaneously. Incidentally, I believe that OS/2 1 was not the only 286 OS affected by this. The development versions of DR's Concurrent DOS 286 could multitask DOS apps in protect mode on pre-release 286s, but Intel "fixed" the feature that permitted this in the first shipping version of the 80286, to DR's dismay and horror. https://books.google.cz/books?id=2y4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false AIUI the feature was later restored, but customer uncertainty, together with suddenly-questionable compatibility with all the 286s out there, killed CDOS 286. I suspect this is instrumental in why DR took FlexOS and X/GEM down the RTOS route instead... in which form it survived and a distant descendant, formerly IBM 4690 OS, is still sold by Toshiba. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 08:38:50 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:38:50 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) In-Reply-To: References: <006301d71907$bb868620$32939260$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <021501d719a0$89097880$9b1c6980$@gmail.com> David & Rob Are these "loose leaf"? If so I am happy to scan, upload, and then pass the paper to Rob who isn't far from me.... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of David Brownlee > via cctalk > Sent: 15 March 2021 09:43 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) > > Hi Rob > > I forgot to mention I'm in the UK :) > > I had another email in from someone in Germany who has access to a book > scanner - if you're setup to scan and upload EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation & > EK-VAXAB-IN-002 I'm happy to part them out to you as you emailed first - let > me know > > David > > On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 at 19:25, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > I would be interested in EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX > > 2000 and VAXmate Network Guide and the EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation > 2000 > > Hardware Installation Guide would be nice if you get no takers. You > > don't say where you are located. I suspect shipping from the USA to > > the UK would be too expensive, or is this in Germany? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of David > > > Brownlee via cctalk > > > Sent: 14 March 2021 18:08 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & > > > German) > > > > > > I have acquired a tiny slice of Orange Wall, and wondered if anyone > > would be > > > interested - preference for anyone who is setup to scan and upload > > > the missing bits to bitsavers or similar :) > > > > > > These seem to already be generally available online > > > EK-NETAB-UG-002 Workstations and MicroVAX 2000 Network Guide > > > EK-VAXAB-OM-002 VAXstation 2000 Owner's Manual (Covers how to > > > replace your mouse balls, and details exciting options such as LN03, > > > LN03 PLUS, LPS40, LA210, LA100, LA75, LA50. LGC01, LVP16, DF224, > > > DF124, DF112, > > VSXXX- > > > AB :-p) > > > > > > These I cannot immediately find > > > EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 and VAXmate > Network > > > Guide > > > EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware Installation Guide > > > > > > Likewise these German versions > > > EK-NETGA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 und VAXmate > > > Netzwerk-Anleitung EK-A0305-IN 001 VR160 Installations-und > > > Bedienungsanleitung > > > EK-A0355-OG-001 Grafikkoprozessor (8 Bildebenen) fur die VAXstation > > > 2000 > > > Installations- und Bedienungsanleitung > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > David > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 15 09:23:01 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 10:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test Message-ID: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > the LOADALL instructions including all of it's warts (and its inability > to switch back from protected mode) Good to have that confirmed (for the 286; apparently it works in the 386). > the other way to get back to real mode from protected mode is via a > triple-fault. Any insight into why IBM didn't use that, but went with the (allegedly slow) keyboard hack? Noel From bdweb at mindspring.com Mon Mar 15 09:47:07 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 10:47:07 -0400 Subject: DEC Professional: software and docs for CP/M and PC-Bridge boards Message-ID: I have two oddball CTI boards for my DEC Professional: a DEC-made CP/M board (P/N 54-15641) and a board labelled "VIRTUAL MICROSYSTEMS PRO BD. REV 1" which appears to be an x86 MS-DOS board (it contains an 8086, a video controller and a bunch of RAM). I've managed to get them both functional, I believe, but I don't have software or documentation for either. I did find the RCS/RI diskettes at https://web.archive.org/web/20040113090630/http://starfish.rcsri.org/rcs/pdp-11/Professional/Pro-CPM/, but although the image files are uncorrupted it appears the diskettes were not read reliably in the first place. And I also know that at some point the PC-Bridge software and doc set was available on eBay (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/virtual-microsystems-pc-bridge-2-2005998357). Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the diskettes and/or documentation? Thanks. --Bjoren Davis From dstalk at execulink.com Mon Mar 15 11:29:42 2021 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 12:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-10 I/O notes Message-ID: <20210315162942.E91C2BEECE5@cel2.x> For what it's worth I've posted some notes on PDP-10 I/O from a course taught by Mike Bennett at UWO in the early 1970s. The monitor at the time was likely prior to 5.06. See: http://www.execulink.com/~dstalk/pdp-10_io.pdf Don From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 15 11:42:30 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 09:42:30 -0700 Subject: 80286 Protected Mode Test In-Reply-To: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/15/21 7:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Guy Sotomayor > > > the LOADALL instructions including all of it's warts (and its inability > > to switch back from protected mode) > > Good to have that confirmed (for the 286; apparently it works in the 386). The 386 loadall instruction was different (not really a surprise since the internal microarchitecture was different).? The 386 didn't need to do this "hack" because it had vm86 mode for tasks so that accomplished what everyone was really using LOADALL on the 286 for. > > > the other way to get back to real mode from protected mode is via a > > triple-fault. > > Any insight into why IBM didn't use that, but went with the (allegedly slow) > keyboard hack? At this point I don't recall.? But I suspect it was allegedly simpler conceptually. -- TTFN - Guy From abs at absd.org Mon Mar 15 13:36:23 2021 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:36:23 +0000 Subject: VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot Message-ID: I had some extra A4 pages with a VAXstation 2000 manual which covered a preview PK2K kit for VMS, bootloader and ROM to allow use of the VAXstation 2000 SCSI controller for more than just tapes. Rough scan at http://sync.absd.org/vax/VAX-PK2K-preview-kit.pdf (the originals will be sent to someone who can do a better job) The pages led me to http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ which includes some goodies: - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k - uVAX-2k SCSI patches with source for boot roms, VMB & VMS - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ka420 - ROM patches for KA420/KA430 boot from >1GB disks - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/dk-552/ - VMS 5.2 patch to allow to accept more SCSI disk devices (Starting a new thread in case there is (slightly) more general interest for anyone interested in using the onboard uVAX-2K SCSI controller more more than tapes (OK, OK, for anyone not running NetBSD on their uVAX-2K interested in etc etc) - have cross posted to cctalk & port-vax - hopefully not violating any conventions there) David From david.raingeard at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 10:41:54 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:41:54 +0100 Subject: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC In-Reply-To: <02a49181-dfab-2d58-ad38-dc430bca798c@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <02a49181-dfab-2d58-ad38-dc430bca798c@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: i rather do what doe with ibm dos Le lun. 15 mars 2021 ? 16:23, Tom Uban via cctech a ?crit : > It dawned on me that I probably just need to change a BIOS setting. I > haven't dealt with PCs in so > long I've forgotten what to do... > I would still like to find a manual if someone has one. > > > I have a Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC in a system > with a 5.25" floppy drive > running DOS. > > I would like to switch the system to use a 3.5" drive and am wondering > if anyone has a manual for > the dip switch settings for this board or if I can simply add a 3.5" drive > as a 2nd device on the > floppy cable (guessing not without switch changes)? > > > > --tnx > > --tom > > From lars at nocrew.org Tue Mar 16 01:04:44 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 06:04:44 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 I/O notes In-Reply-To: <20210315162942.E91C2BEECE5@cel2.x> (Don Stalkowski via cctalk's message of "Mon, 15 Mar 2021 12:29:42 -0400 (EDT)") References: <20210315162942.E91C2BEECE5@cel2.x> Message-ID: <7wzgz3zlab.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Don Stalkowski wrote: > For what it's worth I've posted some notes on PDP-10 I/O from a course > taught by Mike Bennett at UWO in the early 1970s. Thank you! Interesting to see the DECtape file structure format. From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Mar 16 09:48:33 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 09:48:33 -0500 Subject: who collects modems? In-Reply-To: References: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box Digital DF03 modem Any offers? --tom From cube1 at charter.net Tue Mar 16 11:23:28 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:23:28 -0500 Subject: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0877749a-9d01-466e-9e59-854977e13808@charter.net> I may have a little info - but the info is in storage, and it is just a "Western Peripherals Instruction Reference Card", apparently referring to the DC-230, PDP-11 and TC-130 (the latter being a tape controller, for which I do have some doc.) Once the weather warms up again - say, maybe this weekend, I'll trot off to storage, bring it back and scan it. Back in the 1970's the UW Madison CS Department's 11/20 had a 3rd party disk controller of some sort - one pack removable, one fixed, but I don't remember who made it (might have been Wangco). JRJ On 3/12/2021 5:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Any ideas what this disc controller is? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 > > Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a controller > for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or > something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the > little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate power > harness for the backplane. > > - Josh > From new_castle_j at yahoo.com Tue Mar 16 12:57:09 2021 From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 17:57:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1578634366.1662031.1615917429880@mail.yahoo.com> I've got a Diversified Tech 286 SBC as well and was able to switch to 3.5 floppies by modifying the BIOS settings. Mine has the Dallas Real Time Clock chip and the battery was dead so the BIOS settings weren't preserved after a reboot. Fortunately I obtained a replacement chip available on ebay to fix that issue. I haven't got a manual to share, but it's a neat little board. Jonathan On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 12:00:02 PM CDT, wrote: Send cctalk mailing list submissions to ??? cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot ? ? ? (David Brownlee) ? 2. Re: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC ? ? ? (david raingeard) ? 3. Re: PDP-10 I/O notes (Lars Brinkhoff) ? 4. who collects modems? (Tom Uban) ? 5. Re: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? ? ? ? (Jay Jaeger) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:36:23 +0000 From: David Brownlee To: rob at jarratt.me.uk,? "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic ??? Posts" , port-vax List Cc: Malte Dehling Subject: VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I had some extra A4 pages with a VAXstation 2000 manual which covered a preview PK2K kit for VMS, bootloader and ROM to allow use of the VAXstation 2000 SCSI controller for more than just tapes. Rough scan at http://sync.absd.org/vax/VAX-PK2K-preview-kit.pdf (the originals will be sent to someone who can do a better job) The pages led me to http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ which includes some goodies: - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k - uVAX-2k SCSI patches with source for boot roms, VMB & VMS - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ka420 - ROM patches for KA420/KA430 boot from >1GB disks - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/dk-552/ - VMS 5.2 patch to allow to accept more SCSI disk devices (Starting a new thread in case there is (slightly) more general interest for anyone interested in using the onboard uVAX-2K SCSI controller more more than tapes (OK, OK, for anyone not running NetBSD on their uVAX-2K interested in etc etc) - have cross posted to cctalk & port-vax - hopefully not violating any conventions there) David ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:41:54 +0100 From: david raingeard To: Tom Uban ,? "General Discussion: ??? On-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" i rather do? what doe with ibm dos Le lun. 15 mars 2021 ? 16:23, Tom Uban via cctech a ?crit : > It dawned on me that I probably just need to change a BIOS setting. I > haven't dealt with PCs in so > long I've forgotten what to do... > I would still like to find a manual if someone has one. > > > I have a Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC in a system > with a 5.25" floppy drive > running DOS. > > I would like to switch the system to use a 3.5" drive and am wondering > if anyone has a manual for > the dip switch settings for this board or if I can simply add a 3.5" drive > as a 2nd device on the > floppy cable (guessing not without switch changes)? > > > > --tnx > > --tom > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 06:04:44 +0000 From: Lars Brinkhoff To: Don Stalkowski via cctalk Subject: Re: PDP-10 I/O notes Message-ID: <7wzgz3zlab.fsf at junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain Don Stalkowski wrote: > For what it's worth I've posted some notes on PDP-10 I/O from a course > taught by Mike Bennett at UWO in the early 1970s. Thank you! Interesting to see the DECtape file structure format. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 09:48:33 -0500 From: Tom Uban To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ??? Subject: who collects modems? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box Digital DF03 modem Any offers? --tom ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:23:28 -0500 From: Jay Jaeger To: Josh Dersch via cctalk Subject: Re: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? Message-ID: <0877749a-9d01-466e-9e59-854977e13808 at charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed I may have a little info - but the info is in storage, and it is just a "Western Peripherals Instruction Reference Card", apparently referring to the DC-230, PDP-11 and TC-130 (the latter being a tape controller, for which I do have some doc.) Once the weather warms up again - say, maybe this weekend, I'll trot off to storage, bring it back and scan it. Back in the 1970's the UW Madison CS Department's 11/20 had a 3rd party disk controller of some sort - one pack removable, one fixed, but I don't remember who made it (might have been Wangco). JRJ On 3/12/2021 5:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Any ideas what this disc controller is? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 > > Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a controller > for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or > something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the > little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate power > harness for the backplane. > > - Josh > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 78, Issue 16 ************************************** From david.raingeard at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:08:00 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 18:08:00 +0100 Subject: who collects modems? In-Reply-To: References: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: i do but they often dont seem to work over rtc input of internet boxes which is a shame Le mar. 16 mars 2021 ? 16:30, Tom Uban via cctech a ?crit : > Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: > > NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box > CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box > Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box > Digital DF03 modem > > Any offers? > > --tom > > From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Mar 16 13:02:02 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 13:02:02 -0500 Subject: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC In-Reply-To: <1578634366.1662031.1615917429880@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1578634366.1662031.1615917429880@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <91d78632-ff87-ddb0-6fe0-9e0ed038e683@figureeightbrewing.com> Ok. Thanks for verifying that info, I will try changing the BIOS setting. I do need to replace the Dallas RTC as well. On 3/16/21 12:57 PM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote: > I've got a Diversified Tech 286 SBC as well and was able to switch to 3.5 floppies by modifying the BIOS settings. Mine has the Dallas Real Time Clock chip and the battery was dead so the BIOS settings weren't preserved after a reboot. Fortunately I obtained a replacement chip available on ebay to fix that issue. I haven't got a manual to share, but it's a neat little board. > > Jonathan > On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 12:00:02 PM CDT, wrote: > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > ??? cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > ??? http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ??? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ??? cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ? 1. VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot > ? ? ? (David Brownlee) > ? 2. Re: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC > ? ? ? (david raingeard) > ? 3. Re: PDP-10 I/O notes (Lars Brinkhoff) > ? 4. who collects modems? (Tom Uban) > ? 5. Re: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? > ? ? ? (Jay Jaeger) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:36:23 +0000 > From: David Brownlee > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk,? "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > ??? Posts" , port-vax List > Cc: Malte Dehling > Subject: VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot > Message-ID: > ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I had some extra A4 pages with a VAXstation 2000 manual which covered > a preview PK2K kit for VMS, bootloader and ROM to allow use of the > VAXstation 2000 SCSI controller for more than just tapes. > > Rough scan at http://sync.absd.org/vax/VAX-PK2K-preview-kit.pdf (the > originals will be sent to someone who can do a better job) > > The pages led me to http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ which includes some goodies: > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k - uVAX-2k SCSI patches with source > for boot roms, VMB & VMS > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ka420 - ROM patches for KA420/KA430 boot > from >1GB disks > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/dk-552/ - VMS 5.2 patch to allow to > accept more SCSI disk devices > > (Starting a new thread in case there is (slightly) more general > interest for anyone interested in using the onboard uVAX-2K SCSI > controller more more than tapes (OK, OK, for anyone not running NetBSD > on their uVAX-2K interested in etc etc) - have cross posted to cctalk > & port-vax - hopefully not violating any conventions there) > > David > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:41:54 +0100 > From: david raingeard > To: Tom Uban ,? "General Discussion: > ??? On-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC > Message-ID: > ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > i rather do? what doe with ibm dos > > Le lun. 15 mars 2021 ? 16:23, Tom Uban via cctech a > ?crit : > >> It dawned on me that I probably just need to change a BIOS setting. I >> haven't dealt with PCs in so >> long I've forgotten what to do... >> I would still like to find a manual if someone has one. >> >>> I have a Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC in a system >> with a 5.25" floppy drive >> running DOS. >>> I would like to switch the system to use a 3.5" drive and am wondering >> if anyone has a manual for >> the dip switch settings for this board or if I can simply add a 3.5" drive >> as a 2nd device on the >> floppy cable (guessing not without switch changes)? >>> --tnx >>> --tom >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 06:04:44 +0000 > From: Lars Brinkhoff > To: Don Stalkowski via cctalk > Subject: Re: PDP-10 I/O notes > Message-ID: <7wzgz3zlab.fsf at junk.nocrew.org> > Content-Type: text/plain > > Don Stalkowski wrote: >> For what it's worth I've posted some notes on PDP-10 I/O from a course >> taught by Mike Bennett at UWO in the early 1970s. > Thank you! > > Interesting to see the DECtape file structure format. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 09:48:33 -0500 > From: Tom Uban > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > ??? > Subject: who collects modems? > Message-ID: > ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: > > NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box > CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box > Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box > Digital DF03 modem > > Any offers? > > --tom > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:23:28 -0500 > From: Jay Jaeger > To: Josh Dersch via cctalk > Subject: Re: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? > Message-ID: <0877749a-9d01-466e-9e59-854977e13808 at charter.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > I may have a little info - but the info is in storage, and it is just a > "Western Peripherals Instruction Reference Card", apparently referring > to the DC-230, PDP-11 and TC-130 (the latter being a tape controller, > for which I do have some doc.) > > Once the weather warms up again - say, maybe this weekend, I'll trot off > to storage, bring it back and scan it. > > Back in the 1970's the UW Madison CS Department's 11/20 had a 3rd party > disk controller of some sort - one pack removable, one fixed, but I > don't remember who made it (might have been Wangco). > > JRJ > > On 3/12/2021 5:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> Any ideas what this disc controller is? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 >> >> Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a controller >> for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or >> something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the >> little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate power >> harness for the backplane. >> >> - Josh >> > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 78, Issue 16 > ************************************** > From david.raingeard at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 14:12:28 2021 From: david.raingeard at gmail.com (david raingeard) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 20:12:28 +0100 Subject: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC In-Reply-To: <91d78632-ff87-ddb0-6fe0-9e0ed038e683@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <1578634366.1662031.1615917429880@mail.yahoo.com> <91d78632-ff87-ddb0-6fe0-9e0ed038e683@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: good job Le mar. 16 mars 2021 ? 20:10, Tom Uban via cctalk a ?crit : > Ok. Thanks for verifying that info, I will try changing the BIOS setting. > I do need to replace the > Dallas RTC as well. > > On 3/16/21 12:57 PM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote: > > I've got a Diversified Tech 286 SBC as well and was able to switch to > 3.5 floppies by modifying the BIOS settings. Mine has the Dallas Real Time > Clock chip and the battery was dead so the BIOS settings weren't preserved > after a reboot. Fortunately I obtained a replacement chip available on ebay > to fix that issue. I haven't got a manual to share, but it's a neat little > board. > > > > Jonathan > > On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 12:00:02 PM CDT, < > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot > > (David Brownlee) > > 2. Re: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC > > (david raingeard) > > 3. Re: PDP-10 I/O notes (Lars Brinkhoff) > > 4. who collects modems? (Tom Uban) > > 5. Re: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? > > (Jay Jaeger) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:36:23 +0000 > > From: David Brownlee > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > > Posts" , port-vax List > > Cc: Malte Dehling > > Subject: VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > I had some extra A4 pages with a VAXstation 2000 manual which covered > > a preview PK2K kit for VMS, bootloader and ROM to allow use of the > > VAXstation 2000 SCSI controller for more than just tapes. > > > > Rough scan at http://sync.absd.org/vax/VAX-PK2K-preview-kit.pdf (the > > originals will be sent to someone who can do a better job) > > > > The pages led me to http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ which includes some > goodies: > > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k - uVAX-2k SCSI patches with source > > for boot roms, VMB & VMS > > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ka420 - ROM patches for KA420/KA430 boot > > from >1GB disks > > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/dk-552/ - VMS 5.2 patch to allow to > > accept more SCSI disk devices > > > > (Starting a new thread in case there is (slightly) more general > > interest for anyone interested in using the onboard uVAX-2K SCSI > > controller more more than tapes (OK, OK, for anyone not running NetBSD > > on their uVAX-2K interested in etc etc) - have cross posted to cctalk > > & port-vax - hopefully not violating any conventions there) > > > > David > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:41:54 +0100 > > From: david raingeard > > To: Tom Uban , "General Discussion: > > On-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > i rather do what doe with ibm dos > > > > Le lun. 15 mars 2021 ? 16:23, Tom Uban via cctech > a > > ?crit : > > > >> It dawned on me that I probably just need to change a BIOS setting. I > >> haven't dealt with PCs in so > >> long I've forgotten what to do... > >> I would still like to find a manual if someone has one. > >> > >>> I have a Diversified Technology CAT904 80286 single board PC in a > system > >> with a 5.25" floppy drive > >> running DOS. > >>> I would like to switch the system to use a 3.5" drive and am wondering > >> if anyone has a manual for > >> the dip switch settings for this board or if I can simply add a 3.5" > drive > >> as a 2nd device on the > >> floppy cable (guessing not without switch changes)? > >>> --tnx > >>> --tom > >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 06:04:44 +0000 > > From: Lars Brinkhoff > > To: Don Stalkowski via cctalk > > Subject: Re: PDP-10 I/O notes > > Message-ID: <7wzgz3zlab.fsf at junk.nocrew.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > Don Stalkowski wrote: > >> For what it's worth I've posted some notes on PDP-10 I/O from a course > >> taught by Mike Bennett at UWO in the early 1970s. > > Thank you! > > > > Interesting to see the DECtape file structure format. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 09:48:33 -0500 > > From: Tom Uban > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Subject: who collects modems? > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: > > > > NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box > > CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box > > Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box > > Digital DF03 modem > > > > Any offers? > > > > --tom > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:23:28 -0500 > > From: Jay Jaeger > > To: Josh Dersch via cctalk > > Subject: Re: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller? > > Message-ID: <0877749a-9d01-466e-9e59-854977e13808 at charter.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > > I may have a little info - but the info is in storage, and it is just a > > "Western Peripherals Instruction Reference Card", apparently referring > > to the DC-230, PDP-11 and TC-130 (the latter being a tape controller, > > for which I do have some doc.) > > > > Once the weather warms up again - say, maybe this weekend, I'll trot off > > to storage, bring it back and scan it. > > > > Back in the 1970's the UW Madison CS Department's 11/20 had a 3rd party > > disk controller of some sort - one pack removable, one fixed, but I > > don't remember who made it (might have been Wangco). > > > > JRJ > > > > On 3/12/2021 5:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > >> Any ideas what this disc controller is? > >> > >> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 > >> > >> Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a > controller > >> for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or > >> something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the > >> little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate > power > >> harness for the backplane. > >> > >> - Josh > >> > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 78, Issue 16 > > ************************************** > > > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 16:24:49 2021 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 17:24:49 -0400 Subject: who collects modems? In-Reply-To: References: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <353C33FD-A925-41DA-8483-4C6897DF216B@verizon.net> I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a second acoustic coupler modem like the Novation Cat (or the Radio Shack or Apple-badged versions) with a standard RS232 connector or equivalent brand. Mostly for demo purposes, but has to be working. RichC ?On 3/16/21, 3:09 PM, "cctalk on behalf of david raingeard via cctalk" wrote: i do but they often dont seem to work over rtc input of internet boxes which is a shame Le mar. 16 mars 2021 ? 16:30, Tom Uban via cctech a ?crit : > Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: > > NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box > CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box > Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box > Digital DF03 modem > > Any offers? > > --tom > > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 19:04:27 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 20:04:27 -0400 Subject: Wagner WAC40 In-Reply-To: References: <991387F3-DEE6-401A-A04E-BD5F8C0FFD26@comcast.net> Message-ID: Joshua: I have one of those too. They do make a great display piece. If you collect any information off list, I would love to hear it. On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 11:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 13, 2021, at 1:34 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> Very interesting looking. I can't quite make out what is going on in > that rectangular area where all the wires terminate, labeled 0-15 and A-R. > Are there diodes there? Anything on the other side of that board? > > > > Nothing but traces on the other side, though you?re right on them being > diodes. > > > >> The large cores with all the wires are remisniscent of core rope ROM. > If so, I wonder if it's AGC (Lincoln Labs) style, EL-X1 style, or a scheme > different from either of those two. > > > > It?s definitely some form of core rope ROM. > > > > Interestingly, the ferrite rings are built in pairs, with a "selection" > coil wrapped around both, joining them. Therefore (i assume, i?m really no > expert) they?ll be a positive pulse induced when passing through one coil, > but a negative pulse when passed through the opposite coil. This probably > helps in differentiating beween a 0, a 1, or a NULL state (ie 0v). > > > > I have no idea if that correlates with any particular format of Core > Rope, but as far as my eyes can tell, that? how the core rope is woven and > functions. > > The key component of core rope memory (and X1 ROM) is square-loop cores, > like the cores used in conventional read/write core memory. > > There is another kind of core ROM where the cores are simply transformer > cores. Since you mentioned a "selection" coil, chances are that's what > we're dealing with here. > > Brent Hilpert has a great writeup on a number of the technologies used. > http://madrona.ca/e/corerope/index.html > > paul > > From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Mar 16 17:17:39 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 17:17:39 -0500 Subject: who collects modems? In-Reply-To: <353C33FD-A925-41DA-8483-4C6897DF216B@verizon.net> References: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <353C33FD-A925-41DA-8483-4C6897DF216B@verizon.net> Message-ID: I just discovered one more modem in my "collection". An Anderson Jacobson Model A 242A acoustic coupler modem. BTW, the DF03 is spoken for. --tom On 3/16/21 4:24 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a second acoustic coupler modem like the Novation Cat (or the Radio Shack or Apple-badged versions) with a standard RS232 connector or equivalent brand. Mostly for demo purposes, but has to be working. > > RichC > > ?On 3/16/21, 3:09 PM, "cctalk on behalf of david raingeard via cctalk" wrote: > > i do but they often dont seem to work over rtc input of internet boxes > which is a shame > > Le mar. 16 mars 2021 ? 16:30, Tom Uban via cctech a > ?crit : > > > Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: > > > > NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box > > CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box > > Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box > > Digital DF03 modem > > > > Any offers? > > > > --tom > > > > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 06:06:43 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 07:06:43 -0400 Subject: who collects modems? In-Reply-To: References: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <353C33FD-A925-41DA-8483-4C6897DF216B@verizon.net> Message-ID: I dont "collect" them but they seem to spontaneously accumulate here On Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 3:23 AM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I just discovered one more modem in my "collection". > An Anderson Jacobson Model A 242A acoustic coupler modem. > > BTW, the DF03 is spoken for. > > --tom > > On 3/16/21 4:24 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a second acoustic coupler modem like > the Novation Cat (or the Radio Shack or Apple-badged versions) with a > standard RS232 connector or equivalent brand. Mostly for demo purposes, but > has to be working. > > > > RichC > > > > ?On 3/16/21, 3:09 PM, "cctalk on behalf of david raingeard via cctalk" < > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > i do but they often dont seem to work over rtc input of internet > boxes > > which is a shame > > > > Le mar. 16 mars 2021 ? 16:30, Tom Uban via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> a > > ?crit : > > > > > Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: > > > > > > NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box > > > CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box > > > Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box > > > Digital DF03 modem > > > > > > Any offers? > > > > > > --tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From bvasea at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 16:50:14 2021 From: bvasea at gmail.com (Vasile Buruiana) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 23:50:14 +0200 Subject: Tapestar for DOS Message-ID: Hello I have the Qualstar Tapestar Package for DOS. It is fully working. However it requires a Microtech MCS1 "TAPE816" 16-bit ISA Pertec controller. I have the full Ms-Dos package. Where do I send the software package to be uploaded to bitsavers? From bvasea at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 17:02:53 2021 From: bvasea at gmail.com (Vasile Buruiana) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 00:02:53 +0200 Subject: Looking for Overland TC-50M 8-bit ISA Controller drivers&software Message-ID: I have this controller, I bought it from the Netherlands three years ago with a Cipher horizontal tape drive. It was pulled from a working system but... no drivers. Does anyone have any related software for this controller? It is listed here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?66915-Overland-Data-TC-50M-Pertec-ISA-8-bit-board-problems-with-jumpers-and-driver I tried everything from Bitsavers. All drivers, all software. Nothing works. The board is not listed so I installed and tried everything. To give something in exchange, I wish to contribute with the full Qualstar Tapestar for Dos package to bitsavers and archive.org (separate thread). From boris at summitclinic.com Wed Mar 17 18:39:13 2021 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:39:13 -0800 Subject: who collects modems? In-Reply-To: References: <20210315142301.B5B6B18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20210317233920.496E72737A@mx1.ezwind.net> Have a bunch of modems as well but first have to get PDP-11 stuff shipped off to those people who want it. Will see if Value Village in Kamloops will still take them. For a while they were a great place to get old electronics like the DAT SCSI drive I picked up for $5 8 years ago. "high speed" at 50 Kb/sec transfer rate which seemed fast in 2010 when I picked it up and got all my DAT backup tapes transferred to "disks" which can only run under BasiliskII now. >Clearing out stuff at my space, I have the following modems: > >NEC UltraLite-Series Image Modem Plus w/box >CTS Datacomm 2424 ADA modem w/box >Scout Plus External Data/Fax modem w/box >Digital DF03 modem > >Any offers? > >--tom From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 03:14:26 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 02:14:26 -0600 Subject: PDP-10 I/O notes In-Reply-To: <7wzgz3zlab.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20210315162942.E91C2BEECE5@cel2.x> <7wzgz3zlab.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 12:04 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Interesting to see the DECtape file structure format. > IIRC, the DECtape file structure is documented in the Monitor Calls manual. The disk file structure is not, though there are many references to Retrieval Information Blocks (RIBs) and such. From rsmilward at frontier.com Thu Mar 18 12:23:03 2021 From: rsmilward at frontier.com (Richard Milward) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:23:03 -0400 Subject: who collects modems? References: Message-ID: If anyone has a modem made by Datec, a long-defunct manufacturer from Chapel Hill, NC, please let me know. I used to do customer support for them back in the early '80s. (They used to run ads in Byte Magazine touting their "crystal-controlled stability".) Thanks. **Richard From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 18 16:31:26 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 14:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993 In-Reply-To: References: <007701d71711$c5c95d30$515c1790$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Mar 2021, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > I think I've finally decided: yes. :) > It looks like Fred C. might have one, so I will wait to hear from him. > thanks! > Stan BAD NEWS. Like the YEAR 2020, mostly failure. The box of printers was not where I thought that it might be. I'll look in a few more spots next week, but maybe you should grab Mike Stein's one. However, I DID find humidors and cartridges! ("expired") If you give me your address, I can send them to you (maybe next week). The humidors are not gasketed air tight, but they do close well (could add an o-ring to make them airtight?) and latch, and have latches for holding the cartridges and a rubber pad against the printing end of the cartridges. The humidors can take two different kinds of cartridges (sideways or lengthwise), so they can be used for your Deskjet Portable cartridges and/or for the 500?/600? series cartridges: Used humidor with 51633M empty cartridge Used humidor with 51649A cartridge, labelled "8/97" Used humidor with 51649A cartridge, labelled "8/97" Used humidor with 51649A cartridge, labelled "no yellow" Used humidor with 51649A cartridge, labelled "NG 8/97" Unused? "Deskwriter C"? two cartridge storage container (NO attempt at being airtight, has a tinted clear lid for holding two sizes of cartridge on the desk) Unopened 51633A cartridge (Black,"Deskjet Portable, Deskjet 300J") June 1995 Unopened 51633A cartridge ("Deskjet Portable, Deskjet 300J") June 1995 Unopened 51633A cartridge ("Deskjet Portable, Deskjet 300J") June 1995 Unopened 51633A cartridge ("Deskjet Portable, Deskjet 300J") June 1995 Used empty? 51633A cartridge ("Deskjet Portable, Deskjet 300J") June 1995 Unopened 51649A cartridge (Color,Deskjet 600 series) Oct 1997 Unopened 51641A cartridge ("Deskjet 820,850,855,870,1000, Color copier 110,120, Officejet 1150C") Feb 2002 I don't know what, if any, difference there is between the 51633A, 51633M cartridge and the other cartridges that fit the Deskjet portable. I don't know the differences between the Deskjet Portable 300 VS Deskjet Portable 300C (color). Probably a few more lines brought to the printhead for color control. There weren't any Deskjet Portable COLOR cartridges in this box, and I don't remember whether any of my Deskjet Portables were color models. If you give me your address, I can send them to you (maybe next week). Let me know if you also want the non-Deskjet Portable cartridges, and/or, . . . DOES ANYBODY ELSE WANT THEM?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Mar 18 18:39:37 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 18:39:37 -0500 Subject: [HOswap on IO] FS: Panavise vise with circuit board adapter! In-Reply-To: <166D8A75ADE5D880.21354@groups.io> References: <166D8A75ADE5D880.21354@groups.io> Message-ID: <6053E4B9.1030508@charter.net> Hello all, The Panavise is sold. I appreciate the interest! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/18/2021 3:41 PM, Richard R. Pope wrote: > Hello all, > As you all know by now I probably have cancer and I am selling off > my possessions to finance my travels around the country. I have for > sale one Panavise vise with nylon jaws and a large circuit board > holder adapter. $100 plus shipping. Please reply off list. I live in > Reedsburg, WI 53959. I prefer Paypal F&F. If you use G&S please add > the 4.5% handling fee. Will accept MO, Cashiers Check, and Personal > Check (must clear before shipping)! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > View/Reply Online (#47099): https://groups.io/g/HOswap/message/47099 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/81439849/89555 > -=-=- > Help spread the word about HOswap! Tell your friends and groups about > how great this group is. https://groups.io/g/HOswap > -=-=- > Group Owner: HOswap+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/HOswap/unsub [mechanic_2 at charter.net] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Mar 18 15:41:14 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:41:14 -0500 Subject: FS: Panavise vise with circuit board adapter! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6053BAEA.5040905@charter.net> Hello all, As you all know by now I probably have cancer and I am selling off my possessions to finance my travels around the country. I have for sale one Panavise vise with nylon jaws and a large circuit board holder adapter. $100 plus shipping. Please reply off list. I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959. I prefer Paypal F&F. If you use G&S please add the 4.5% handling fee. Will accept MO, Cashiers Check, and Personal Check (must clear before shipping)! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! From mechanic_2 at charter.net Fri Mar 19 02:15:35 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 02:15:35 -0500 Subject: FS: Panavise vise with circuit board adapter! In-Reply-To: <6053BAEA.5040905@charter.net> References: <6053BAEA.5040905@charter.net> Message-ID: <60544F97.2070801@charter.net> Hello all, The vise has been sold. I appreciate the interest! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/18/2021 3:41 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > As you all know by now I probably have cancer and I am selling off > my possessions to finance my travels around the country. I have for > sale one Panavise vise with nylon jaws and a large circuit board > holder adapter. $100 plus shipping. Please reply off list. I live in > Reedsburg, WI 53959. I prefer Paypal F&F. If you use G&S please add > the 4.5% handling fee. Will accept MO, Cashiers Check, and Personal > Check (must clear before shipping)! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Mar 19 09:52:53 2021 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:52:53 +0000 Subject: Oregon Pascal for M68000 Message-ID: <0f8a1cc3-e333-7428-543b-849451a490d4@philpem.me.uk> Hi all, Does anyone have any documentation (or perhaps even a copy?) of Oregon Pascal for the Motorola 68000? I'm looking for information on its calling convention, if such is available -- or otherwise a way to run it with arbitrary code and see how it behaves. Once again I'm reverse-engineering a 68K-based embedded system... :) Cheers Phil. From jeffrey at vcfed.org Fri Mar 19 17:49:49 2021 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:49:49 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ Message-ID: Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it again! *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM *ADDRESS*: Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA (40.1848793,-74.0630848) *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 Free to buyers. Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is $10. You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) Write in the note section: [your name] VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 Number of spaces: *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must bring their own tables, tents, cars. * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left behind. * Port-o-potty on site. Jeff Brace ========================================= Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 18:57:49 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 19:57:49 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a deal breaker for me. On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! > Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it again! > > *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) > *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM > *ADDRESS*: > Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ > Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College > *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA > (40.1848793,-74.0630848) > *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet > *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org > *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 > > Free to buyers. > > Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is $10. > You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. > > *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) > Write in the note section: > [your name] > VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 > Number of spaces: > > *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 > > * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. > * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must > bring their own tables, tents, cars. > * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. > * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left > behind. > * Port-o-potty on site. > > Jeff Brace > ========================================= > Vice President & Board Member > Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner > Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > http://www.vcfed.org/ > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Fri Mar 19 19:02:55 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 19:02:55 -0500 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60553BAF.9070202@charter.net> And what about those of us who are disabled and can't wear a mask?? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/19/2021 6:57 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. > > Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a > deal breaker for me. > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! >> Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it again! >> >> *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) >> *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM >> *ADDRESS*: >> Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ >> Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College >> *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA >> (40.1848793,-74.0630848) >> *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >> *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org >> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 >> >> Free to buyers. >> >> Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is $10. >> You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. >> >> *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) >> Write in the note section: >> [your name] >> VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 >> Number of spaces: >> >> *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 >> >> * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. >> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must >> bring their own tables, tents, cars. >> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. >> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left >> behind. >> * Port-o-potty on site. >> >> Jeff Brace >> ========================================= >> Vice President & Board Member >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> http://www.vcfed.org/ >> From jeffrey at vcfed.org Fri Mar 19 19:07:50 2021 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 20:07:50 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:58 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: > Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. > > Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a > deal breaker for me. > Yes. Everyone will need to wear a mask and follow all guidelines for NJ. Also keep in mind that this is an outdoor event so the risk is reduced. > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! >> Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it again! >> >> *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) >> *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM >> *ADDRESS*: >> Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ >> Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College >> *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA >> (40.1848793,-74.0630848) >> *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >> *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org >> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 >> >> Free to buyers. >> >> Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is >> $10. >> You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. >> >> *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) >> Write in the note section: >> [your name] >> VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 >> Number of spaces: >> >> *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 >> >> * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. >> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors must >> bring their own tables, tents, cars. >> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. >> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be left >> behind. >> * Port-o-potty on site. >> >> Jeff Brace >> ========================================= >> Vice President & Board Member >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> http://www.vcfed.org/ >> > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 20:33:25 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:33:25 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about giant squid? You dont think it can happen to you and then... On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 8:47 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:58 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: > > > Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. > > > > Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a > > deal breaker for me. > > > > Yes. Everyone will need to wear a mask and follow all guidelines for NJ. > Also keep in mind that this is an outdoor event so the risk is reduced. > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! > >> Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it again! > >> > >> *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) > >> *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM > >> *ADDRESS*: > >> Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ > >> Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College > >> *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA > >> (40.1848793,-74.0630848) > >> *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet > >> *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org > >> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 > >> > >> Free to buyers. > >> > >> Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is > >> $10. > >> You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. > >> > >> *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) > >> Write in the note section: > >> [your name] > >> VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 > >> Number of spaces: > >> > >> *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 > >> > >> * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. > >> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors > must > >> bring their own tables, tents, cars. > >> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. > >> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be > left > >> behind. > >> * Port-o-potty on site. > >> > >> Jeff Brace > >> ========================================= > >> Vice President & Board Member > >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner > >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > >> http://www.vcfed.org/ > >> > > > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 20:54:12 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:54:12 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think giant squids would be safe in the parking lot. Without a lot of water, they would dry out. We could continuously hose them down, but that might damage vintage hardware. Nothing is simple. RIchard: I'm curious, what form of disability prevents someone from wearing a mask, yet they are still mobile enough to attend an event? On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 9:33 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What about giant squid? You dont think it can happen to you and then... > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 8:47 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:58 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: > > > > > Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. > > > > > > Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a > > > deal breaker for me. > > > > > > > Yes. Everyone will need to wear a mask and follow all guidelines for NJ. > > Also keep in mind that this is an outdoor event so the risk is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! > > >> Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it > again! > > >> > > >> *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) > > >> *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM > > >> *ADDRESS*: > > >> Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ > > >> Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College > > >> *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA > > >> (40.1848793,-74.0630848) > > >> *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet > > >> *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org > > >> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 > > >> > > >> Free to buyers. > > >> > > >> Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is > > >> $10. > > >> You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. > > >> > > >> *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) > > >> Write in the note section: > > >> [your name] > > >> VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 > > >> Number of spaces: > > >> > > >> *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 > > >> > > >> * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. > > >> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors > > must > > >> bring their own tables, tents, cars. > > >> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. > > >> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be > > left > > >> behind. > > >> * Port-o-potty on site. > > >> > > >> Jeff Brace > > >> ========================================= > > >> Vice President & Board Member > > >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner > > >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > > >> http://www.vcfed.org/ > > >> > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 19 20:57:36 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 2021, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > What about giant squid? You dont think it can happen to you and then... There will always be SOMETHING. I read on the interwebs that Lee Harvey Oswald was hired by JFK to distract the press to avoid coverage of the Staten Island Ferry giant squid attack. http://www.sioctopusdisaster.com/memorial.html But, there have been no verified accounts of giant squid attacks in Wall, NJ. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 21:00:30 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:00:30 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 9:57 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 19 Mar 2021, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > What about giant squid? You dont think it can happen to you and then... > > There will always be SOMETHING. > > I read on the interwebs that Lee Harvey Oswald was hired by JFK to > distract the press to avoid coverage of the Staten Island Ferry giant > squid attack. http://www.sioctopusdisaster.com/memorial.html > > But, there have been no verified accounts of giant squid attacks in Wall, > NJ. > YET. > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Fri Mar 19 21:03:43 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:03:43 -0500 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <605557FF.3030502@charter.net> Tony, What ever went wrong with my body 20 years ago when I came down with the flu damaged my metabolism. The extra heat load on my lungs and my core causes me to become sick in about 5 minutes. In 15 minutes I am unresponsive, in 30 minutes I am unconsience, and in one hour my heart stops. I almost died last summer in the heat and humidity on the side of I-39 due to my disability. I can not wear a mask. Yes, I can still walk short distances, I move very slowly, and I have to rest a lot. I am staying out of a wheel chair as long as possible even though there are days when I have to use one. If I were to come down with something I would stay home. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/19/2021 8:54 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > I don't think giant squids would be safe in the parking lot. Without a lot > of water, they would dry out. We could continuously hose them down, but > that might damage vintage hardware. Nothing is simple. > > RIchard: I'm curious, what form of disability prevents someone from wearing > a mask, yet they are still mobile enough to attend an event? > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 9:33 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> What about giant squid? You dont think it can happen to you and then... >> >> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 8:47 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:58 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: >>> >>>> Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. >>>> >>>> Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a >>>> deal breaker for me. >>>> >>> Yes. Everyone will need to wear a mask and follow all guidelines for NJ. >>> Also keep in mind that this is an outdoor event so the risk is reduced. >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < >>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! >>>>> Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it >> again! >>>>> *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) >>>>> *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM >>>>> *ADDRESS*: >>>>> Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ >>>>> Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College >>>>> *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA >>>>> (40.1848793,-74.0630848) >>>>> *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >>>>> *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org >>>>> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 >>>>> >>>>> Free to buyers. >>>>> >>>>> Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is >>>>> $10. >>>>> You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. >>>>> >>>>> *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) >>>>> Write in the note section: >>>>> [your name] >>>>> VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 >>>>> Number of spaces: >>>>> >>>>> *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 >>>>> >>>>> * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. >>>>> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors >>> must >>>>> bring their own tables, tents, cars. >>>>> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. >>>>> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be >>> left >>>>> behind. >>>>> * Port-o-potty on site. >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Brace >>>>> ========================================= >>>>> Vice President & Board Member >>>>> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >>>>> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >>>>> http://www.vcfed.org/ >>>>> From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri Mar 19 22:06:18 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:06:18 -0500 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05433480-3715-9d0b-77bf-aebc3cead6b7@thereinhardts.org> On 3/19/2021 8:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 19 Mar 2021, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> What about giant squid?? You dont think it can happen to you and then... > > There will always be SOMETHING. > > I read on the interwebs that Lee Harvey Oswald was hired by JFK to distract the press to avoid coverage of the Staten Island Ferry giant squid attack. http://www.sioctopusdisaster.com/memorial.html > > But, there have been no verified accounts of giant squid attacks in Wall, NJ. > See?? It worked! -- John H. Reinhardt From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 10:55:42 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 15:55:42 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) In-Reply-To: <021501d719a0$89097880$9b1c6980$@gmail.com> References: <006301d71907$bb868620$32939260$@ntlworld.com> <021501d719a0$89097880$9b1c6980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <09c101d71da1$7c26b290$747417b0$@gmail.com> These arrived this morning and they are scanned and OCR'd here:- https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onlY9td7hHhHPnUKV2bA?e=hDKwES I think I can scan at lower resolution and/or grey scale as these are a bit on the huge side.... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > Sent: 15 March 2021 13:39 > To: 'David Brownlee' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' ; rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: RE: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) > > David & Rob > Are these "loose leaf"? If so I am happy to scan, upload, and then pass the > paper to Rob who isn't far from me.... > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of David > > Brownlee via cctalk > > Sent: 15 March 2021 09:43 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & > > German) > > > > Hi Rob > > > > I forgot to mention I'm in the UK :) > > > > I had another email in from someone in Germany who has access to a > > book scanner - if you're setup to scan and upload EK-NETAA-UG-001 > > VAXstation & > > EK-VAXAB-IN-002 I'm happy to part them out to you as you emailed first > > - let me know > > > > David > > > > On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 at 19:25, Rob Jarratt > > > > wrote: > > > > > I would be interested in EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX > > > 2000 and VAXmate Network Guide and the EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation > > 2000 > > > Hardware Installation Guide would be nice if you get no takers. You > > > don't say where you are located. I suspect shipping from the USA to > > > the UK would be too expensive, or is this in Germany? > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of David > > > > Brownlee via cctalk > > > > Sent: 14 March 2021 18:08 > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & > > > > German) > > > > > > > > I have acquired a tiny slice of Orange Wall, and wondered if > > > > anyone > > > would be > > > > interested - preference for anyone who is setup to scan and upload > > > > the missing bits to bitsavers or similar :) > > > > > > > > These seem to already be generally available online > > > > EK-NETAB-UG-002 Workstations and MicroVAX 2000 Network Guide > > > > EK-VAXAB-OM-002 VAXstation 2000 Owner's Manual (Covers how to > > > > replace your mouse balls, and details exciting options such as > > > > LN03, > > > > LN03 PLUS, LPS40, LA210, LA100, LA75, LA50. LGC01, LVP16, DF224, > > > > DF124, DF112, > > > VSXXX- > > > > AB :-p) > > > > > > > > These I cannot immediately find > > > > EK-NETAA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 and VAXmate > > Network > > > > Guide > > > > EK-VAXAB-IN-002 VAXstation 2000 Hardware Installation Guide > > > > > > > > Likewise these German versions > > > > EK-NETGA-UG-001 VAXstation 2000, MicroVAX 2000 und VAXmate > > > > Netzwerk-Anleitung EK-A0305-IN 001 VR160 Installations-und > > > > Bedienungsanleitung > > > > EK-A0355-OG-001 Grafikkoprozessor (8 Bildebenen) fur die > > > > VAXstation > > > > 2000 > > > > Installations- und Bedienungsanleitung > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Mar 20 11:18:55 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:18:55 -0700 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/19/2021 7:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > But, there have been no verified accounts of giant squid attacks in Wall, > NJ. I know Evan is doing a lot of train installation at his house, but I suspect that and the Miata are distractions so we don't see the large pool sized aquarium in the basement. Thanks Jim From ben at huntsmans.net Sat Mar 20 13:16:04 2021 From: ben at huntsmans.net (Ben Huntsman) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:16:04 +0000 Subject: ODE 2.1.1 documentation Message-ID: Hello! Does anyone have any old documentation for ODE 2.1.1, or relatively close versions? I know "newer" versions have been released and have documentation available, but there are some changes in some of the config files that are very different from older versions. For example when creating a sandbox, in the sandbox directory there is a subdirectory called rc_files, that is supposed to have two files, "local" and "shared", but they don't work the same way that rc_files/Buildconf and Buildconf.exp work in newer versions... Anyone on here know anything about ODE, or any other sources of information? Many thanks! From sieler at allegro.com Sat Mar 20 13:51:04 2021 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:51:04 -0700 Subject: the question Message-ID: Hi, I just wanted to thank Tony for asking the question (disability vs. masks) and particularly wanted to thank Robert for the kindness of answering it! I learned something today! Stan From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 15:07:18 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:07:18 -0400 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> <1f029687-326d-9506-bf79-bbc3068c058c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Why did DEC not use the LINCtape format for the PDP-8? I assume maintaining format compatibility between their low, mid, and high range systems was important to them? I suppose there was no other good solution to transferring large files across different DEC platforms than to use magnetic tape...so I may have answered my own question here. Kyle From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Mar 20 15:13:49 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:13:49 -0400 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> <1f029687-326d-9506-bf79-bbc3068c058c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3D148B3B-4449-428A-8331-D664CFE1B7BA@comcast.net> > On Mar 20, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > Why did DEC not use the LINCtape format for the PDP-8? I assume maintaining > format compatibility between their low, mid, and high range systems was > important to them? I suppose there was no other good solution to > transferring large files across different DEC platforms than to use > magnetic tape...so I may have answered my own question here. > > Kyle Speculating here since I have no direct knowledge: the DECtape format allows read and write in either direction, while LINCtape only allows read and write forward. The bidirectional I/O capability was part of DECtape format from the start, and I suspect the desire was to keep that. Also, the DECtape format (ignoring the funny bit order in the PDP-1 case) is the same across all models except for the block size and count in the PDP-8 case. Chances are the desire was to reuse all that design. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 15:21:44 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:21:44 -0400 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: <3D148B3B-4449-428A-8331-D664CFE1B7BA@comcast.net> References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> <1f029687-326d-9506-bf79-bbc3068c058c@bitsavers.org> <3D148B3B-4449-428A-8331-D664CFE1B7BA@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 16:13 Paul Koning wrote > Speculating here since I have no direct knowledge: the DECtape format > allows read and write in either direction, while LINCtape only allows read > and write forward. The bidirectional I/O capability was part of DECtape > format from the start, and I suspect the desire was to keep that. What systems took advantage of the bidirectional nature? Kyle From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Mar 20 15:33:42 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:33:42 -0400 Subject: DECtape ancestry In-Reply-To: References: <872C2EF9-6A83-4B96-8A1E-37AB92DEB812@comcast.net> <8a2716cd-ddee-e184-9a8f-60612dfd37d3@bitsavers.org> <1f029687-326d-9506-bf79-bbc3068c058c@bitsavers.org> <3D148B3B-4449-428A-8331-D664CFE1B7BA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6178267A-67F3-47EE-BB3F-8F5A6C06935A@comcast.net> > On Mar 20, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 16:13 Paul Koning wrote > >> Speculating here since I have no direct knowledge: the DECtape format >> allows read and write in either direction, while LINCtape only allows read >> and write forward. The bidirectional I/O capability was part of DECtape >> format from the start, and I suspect the desire was to keep that. > > > What systems took advantage of the bidirectional nature? > > Kyle DOS-11 for one (and thus RSTS, which reuses that format). DOS DECtape files are linked lists; each block contains a link to the next block. To allow for reading one block at a time, start/stop mode, DOS interleaves 4:1. If you're allocating a long file and the allocation reaches end of tape, allocation then continues in the reverse direction. The extreme case of a single file that takes up the whole drive looks like two up/down passes over the tape, each one touching 1/4th of the blocks in each direction. When a file is read, blocks are read in the same direction as they were written. The direction is given by the sign of the block number in the link word, negative means reverse. As Grant pointed out in the oral history interview, bidirectional DECtape I/O in the sense that you could read a block in the opposite direction it was written isn't all that useful. While the PDP-11 controller does the obverse complement thing, that just means you get the bits in the word correct but the 256 words are still in the opposite order. That could be handled, of course, but I haven't seen programs that do so. Well, one exception: the tape formatter does the write timing/mark forward, then write all in reverse, then reads (to check) forward. But those are test patterns so the job of dealing with the direction change is easy. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 19:19:05 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:19:05 -0500 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question Message-ID: My understanding of the OS/8 TC08 bootloader (MI8-EC) is as follows: 0. Rewind tape 1. Set current address (07755) to 07600 2. Set word count (07754) to -0200 3. Read block 0 and wait for flag 4. Continue executing at 07600 However, it appears as though word count will be hit by the loading of the first block. In fact, my instrumented version of SimH says it's overwritten with a zero. If that's the case, it would seem as though the word count overflow flag will never get set. Not to mention, the current address will be updated next, causing data to be redirected to yet another position. But according to SimH, a write to the current address, 07755, never happens. How can this be? Any help would be appreciated! Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 19:51:42 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:51:42 -0500 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 7:19 PM Kyle Owen wrote: > However, it appears as though word count will be hit by the loading of the > first block. In fact, my instrumented version of SimH says it's overwritten > with a zero. If that's the case, it would seem as though the word count > overflow flag will never get set. Not to mention, the current address will > be updated next, causing data to be redirected to yet another position. > To continue this thought, it appears as though SimH does the following for a read data break: 0. Increment WC 1. Increment CA 2. Compute memory address from the extended memory bits from the TC08 and CA 3. Store the data from the tape at the memory address specified from 2. 4. Check if WC equals zero, and handle that accordingly >From what I can tell, both the PDP-8/E and the PDP-8/I set the WC overflow based on the carry out from the adders...so if WC happens to be overwritten with a zero, a carry out will never happen in the real hardware. In SimH, the entire WC is tested and compared to zero. This behavior seems different. Kyle From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Mar 21 07:24:53 2021 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 08:24:53 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c9e645f-5687-9feb-07a3-b7e8bdcd1155@rickmurphy.net> On 3/20/2021 8:51 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 7:19 PM Kyle Owen wrote: > >> However, it appears as though word count will be hit by the loading of the >> first block. In fact, my instrumented version of SimH says it's overwritten >> with a zero. If that's the case, it would seem as though the word count >> overflow flag will never get set. Not to mention, the current address will >> be updated next, causing data to be redirected to yet another position. >> > To continue this thought, it appears as though SimH does the following for > a read data break: > 0. Increment WC > 1. Increment CA > 2. Compute memory address from the extended memory bits from the TC08 and CA > 3. Store the data from the tape at the memory address specified from 2. > 4. Check if WC equals zero, and handle that accordingly > > >From what I can tell, both the PDP-8/E and the PDP-8/I set the WC overflow > based on the carry out from the adders...so if WC happens to be overwritten > with a zero, a carry out will never happen in the real hardware. In SimH, > the entire WC is tested and compared to zero. This behavior seems different. You have to read the bootstrap code in the TC0x driver to understand this. What happens is that the code watches the buffer pointer (7755) and when it hits 7642, the remaining read is directed to field 1. The boot is looping on 7616/DTSF and 7617/JMP .-1 when it's overwritten by the boot (the NOP below overwrites the DTSF). The other weirdness is that a Read Data operation sets the done flag at the end of the block, so reading a single block means that the WC is unimportant. (Continuous mode reads multiple blocks as controlled by the WC). Lowercase comments below are mine. ??? -Rick BOOT1,? TAD 7755??? ??? /this gets the buffer pointer ??????? TAD BM7642????? /and checks if it's at 7642 ??????? SNA CLA???????? /WATCH THE PROGRESS OF THE READ ??????? JMP BOOT2?????? /WHEN IT GETS PAST 7643, SWITCH TO FIELD 1 ??????? NOP???????????? /LOADS OVER DTSF IN 7616 ??????? JMP BOOT1?????? /LOADS OVER JMP .-1 IN 7617 - STARTS BOOTSTRAP BOOT2,? TAD B10 ??????? DTLB??????????? /ZAP A 10 INTO STATUS REG B TO LOAD INTO FIELD 1 ??????? DTSF??????????? /FROM HERE ON - LOAD THE FIELD 1 RESIDENT INTO FIELD 1 ??????? JMP .-1 BOOT3,? DTXA??????????? /CONTINUE READING NEXT RECORD(ALSO SEE CODE AT 7600) ??????? DTLB??????????? /INTO FIELD 0 ??????? TAD B7577 ??????? DCA 7755??????? /PAGE 7600 ??????? DCA 7754??? ??? /here's where your zero gets set for the WC. BOOTX,? CDF CIF 10 ??????? JMP 7642??????? /JUMP INTO WAIT LOOP IN FIELD 1 ??????? JMP BOOT1?????? /DISK MONITOR FUDGE - JUMP INTO WAITING LOOP B7577,? 7577 B10,??? 10 B600,?? 600 B620,?? 620 ??????? ZBLOCK? 7642-.? /this gets loaded into field 1. ??????? DCA 7744 ??????? DTSF??????????? /THIS IS LOADED INTO FIELD 1 WITH MONITOR RESIDENT ??????? JMP .-1???????? /IT IS IN THE CD OUTPUT AREA AND SO WILL BE ZAPPED ??????? CDF CIF 0?????? /BY THE KEYBOARD MONITOR ENDB,?? JMP 7605??????? /OK, FIELD 0 RESIDENT READ IN, START UP MONITOR From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Mar 21 08:35:25 2021 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 09:35:25 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> On 3/20/2021 8:51 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 7:19 PM Kyle Owen wrote: > >> However, it appears as though word count will be hit by the loading of the >> first block. In fact, my instrumented version of SimH says it's overwritten >> with a zero. If that's the case, it would seem as though the word count >> overflow flag will never get set. Not to mention, the current address will >> be updated next, causing data to be redirected to yet another position. >> > To continue this thought, it appears as though SimH does the following for > a read data break: > 0. Increment WC > 1. Increment CA > 2. Compute memory address from the extended memory bits from the TC08 and CA > 3. Store the data from the tape at the memory address specified from 2. > 4. Check if WC equals zero, and handle that accordingly > > >From what I can tell, both the PDP-8/E and the PDP-8/I set the WC overflow > based on the carry out from the adders...so if WC happens to be overwritten > with a zero, a carry out will never happen in the real hardware. In SimH, > the entire WC is tested and compared to zero. This behavior seems different. > > Kyle Trying again - my reply got chopped off for some reason. You have to read the bootstrap code in the TC0x driver to understand this. What happens is that the code watches the buffer pointer (7755) and when it hits 7642, the remaining read is directed to field 1. The boot is looping on 7616/DTSF and 7617/JMP .-1 when it's overwritten by the boot (the NOP below overwrites the DTSF). The other weirdness is that a Read Data operation sets the done flag at the end of the block, so reading a single block means that the WC is unimportant. (Continuous mode reads multiple blocks as controlled by the WC). Lowercase comments below are mine. ??? -Rick BOOT1,? TAD 7755??? ??? /this gets the buffer pointer ??????? TAD BM7642????? /and checks if it's at 7642 ??????? SNA CLA???????? /WATCH THE PROGRESS OF THE READ ??????? JMP BOOT2?????? /WHEN IT GETS PAST 7643, SWITCH TO FIELD 1 ??????? NOP???????????? /LOADS OVER DTSF IN 7616 ??????? JMP BOOT1?????? /LOADS OVER JMP .-1 IN 7617 - STARTS BOOTSTRAP BOOT2,? TAD B10 ??????? DTLB??????????? /ZAP A 10 INTO STATUS REG B TO LOAD INTO FIELD 1 ??????? DTSF??????????? /FROM HERE ON - LOAD THE FIELD 1 RESIDENT INTO FIELD 1 ??????? JMP .-1 BOOT3,? DTXA??????????? /CONTINUE READING NEXT RECORD(ALSO SEE CODE AT 7600) ??????? DTLB??????????? /INTO FIELD 0 ??????? TAD B7577 ??????? DCA 7755??????? /PAGE 7600 ??????? DCA 7754??? ??? /here's where your zero gets set for the WC. BOOTX,? CDF CIF 10 ??????? JMP 7642??????? /JUMP INTO WAIT LOOP IN FIELD 1 ??????? JMP BOOT1?????? /DISK MONITOR FUDGE - JUMP INTO WAITING LOOP B7577,? 7577 B10,??? 10 B600,?? 600 B620,?? 620 ??????? ZBLOCK? 7642-.? /this gets loaded into field 1. ??????? DCA 7744 ??????? DTSF??????????? /THIS IS LOADED INTO FIELD 1 WITH MONITOR RESIDENT ??????? JMP .-1???????? /IT IS IN THE CD OUTPUT AREA AND SO WILL BE ZAPPED ??????? CDF CIF 0?????? /BY THE KEYBOARD MONITOR ENDB,?? JMP 7605??????? /OK, FIELD 0 RESIDENT READ IN, START UP MONITOR From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 08:45:40 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 09:45:40 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> References: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: thanks, came through to ENDB here! great explanation! bb On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 9:35 AM Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/20/2021 8:51 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 7:19 PM Kyle Owen wrote: > > > >> However, it appears as though word count will be hit by the loading of the > >> first block. In fact, my instrumented version of SimH says it's overwritten > >> with a zero. If that's the case, it would seem as though the word count > >> overflow flag will never get set. Not to mention, the current address will > >> be updated next, causing data to be redirected to yet another position. > >> > > To continue this thought, it appears as though SimH does the following for > > a read data break: > > 0. Increment WC > > 1. Increment CA > > 2. Compute memory address from the extended memory bits from the TC08 and CA > > 3. Store the data from the tape at the memory address specified from 2. > > 4. Check if WC equals zero, and handle that accordingly > > > > >From what I can tell, both the PDP-8/E and the PDP-8/I set the WC overflow > > based on the carry out from the adders...so if WC happens to be overwritten > > with a zero, a carry out will never happen in the real hardware. In SimH, > > the entire WC is tested and compared to zero. This behavior seems different. > > > > Kyle > > Trying again - my reply got chopped off for some reason. > > You have to read the bootstrap code in the TC0x driver to understand this. > > What happens is that the code watches the buffer pointer (7755) and when > it hits 7642, the remaining read is directed to field 1. The boot is > looping on 7616/DTSF and 7617/JMP .-1 when it's overwritten by the boot > (the NOP below overwrites the DTSF). > > The other weirdness is that a Read Data operation sets the done flag at > the end of the block, so reading a single block means that the WC is > unimportant. (Continuous mode reads multiple blocks as controlled by the > WC). > > Lowercase comments below are mine. > -Rick > > BOOT1, TAD 7755 /this gets the buffer pointer > TAD BM7642 /and checks if it's at 7642 > SNA CLA /WATCH THE PROGRESS OF THE READ > JMP BOOT2 /WHEN IT GETS PAST 7643, SWITCH TO FIELD 1 > NOP /LOADS OVER DTSF IN 7616 > JMP BOOT1 /LOADS OVER JMP .-1 IN 7617 - STARTS BOOTSTRAP > BOOT2, TAD B10 > DTLB /ZAP A 10 INTO STATUS REG B TO LOAD INTO FIELD 1 > DTSF /FROM HERE ON - LOAD THE FIELD 1 RESIDENT INTO > FIELD 1 > JMP .-1 > BOOT3, DTXA /CONTINUE READING NEXT RECORD(ALSO SEE CODE AT > 7600) > DTLB /INTO FIELD 0 > TAD B7577 > DCA 7755 /PAGE 7600 > DCA 7754 /here's where your zero gets set for the WC. > BOOTX, CDF CIF 10 > JMP 7642 /JUMP INTO WAIT LOOP IN FIELD 1 > JMP BOOT1 /DISK MONITOR FUDGE - JUMP INTO WAITING LOOP > B7577, 7577 > B10, 10 > B600, 600 > B620, 620 > ZBLOCK 7642-. /this gets loaded into field 1. > DCA 7744 > DTSF /THIS IS LOADED INTO FIELD 1 WITH MONITOR RESIDENT > JMP .-1 /IT IS IN THE CD OUTPUT AREA AND SO WILL BE ZAPPED > CDF CIF 0 /BY THE KEYBOARD MONITOR > ENDB, JMP 7605 /OK, FIELD 0 RESIDENT READ IN, START UP MONITOR > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 09:05:34 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 10:05:34 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> References: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 21, 2021, 09:35 Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > > You have to read the bootstrap code in the TC0x driver to understand this. > I agree with your assessments, but I'm referring to the first stage bootloader: either your toggle-in or MI8E-based ROM bootstrap. In the case of that, the PDP-8 is in a spin loop waiting for the first load of block 0 into 07600; the rest of the bootstrap in the driver isn't yet loaded in core. But you did answer the question that was bugging me, and that's the end error flag getting set at the end of a block in single read mode. Nice, thank you! I'm still a bit suspicious of the handling of WC overflow in SimH, even though, as you point out, it does not matter here. The difference it makes for the toggle-in boot process is whether or not it loads unnecessary code at 1, after WC and CA both are overwritten with zeros. Either way, the first read will terminate, but with default SimH behavior, the read terminates early, after writing a zero to WC. In the 3-cycle break, WC is incremented in the first cycle. If a carry was generated, the WC overflow flop is set. CA is incremented in the second cycle. The actual data transfer happens in the third. Hence, overwriting either WC or CA cannot affect either until the following cycle. So, writing a zero to WC should not cause an overflow until 4096 breaks later. Am I looking at this correctly? Kyle > From jeffrey at vcfed.org Sun Mar 21 13:26:38 2021 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 14:26:38 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 9:54 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: > I don't think giant squids would be safe in the parking lot. Without a lot > of water, they would dry out. We could continuously hose them down, but > that might damage vintage hardware. Nothing is simple. > Although we do occasionally get giant squid coming up from the nearby Shark River, they never make it too far inland because of the hill and forested area. They usually get stuck in trees or hit by cars or attacked by the giant bald eagles who like to eat them for snacks. There is little chance for them to make it down the road to the large parking lot. If they do possibly make it to the parking lot, then I will take out my Mega Charizard from my pok? bag and fry the sucker which will provide everyone with a nice snack during lunchtime. > > RIchard: I'm curious, what form of disability prevents someone from > wearing a mask, yet they are still mobile enough to attend an event? > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 9:33 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> What about giant squid? You dont think it can happen to you and then... >> >> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 8:47 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:58 PM Tony Aiuto >> wrote: >> > >> > > Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. >> > > >> > > Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a >> > > deal breaker for me. >> > > >> > >> > Yes. Everyone will need to wear a mask and follow all guidelines for NJ. >> > Also keep in mind that this is an outdoor event so the risk is reduced. >> > >> > >> > > >> > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < >> > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! >> > >> Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it >> again! >> > >> >> > >> *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) >> > >> *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM >> > >> *ADDRESS*: >> > >> Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ >> > >> Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College >> > >> *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA >> > >> (40.1848793,-74.0630848) >> > >> *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >> > >> *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org >> > >> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 >> > >> >> > >> Free to buyers. >> > >> >> > >> Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space >> is >> > >> $10. >> > >> You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. >> > >> >> > >> *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) >> > >> Write in the note section: >> > >> [your name] >> > >> VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 >> > >> Number of spaces: >> > >> >> > >> *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 >> > >> >> > >> * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. >> > >> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors >> > must >> > >> bring their own tables, tents, cars. >> > >> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. >> > >> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be >> > left >> > >> behind. >> > >> * Port-o-potty on site. >> > >> >> > >> Jeff Brace >> > >> ========================================= >> > >> Vice President & Board Member >> > >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >> > >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> > >> http://www.vcfed.org/ >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 21 13:28:46 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 14:28:46 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> References: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 21, 2021, at 9:35 AM, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > ... > Trying again - my reply got chopped off for some reason. > > You have to read the bootstrap code in the TC0x driver to understand this. > > What happens is that the code watches the buffer pointer (7755) and when it hits 7642, the remaining read is directed to field 1. The boot is looping on 7616/DTSF and 7617/JMP .-1 when it's overwritten by the boot (the NOP below overwrites the DTSF). The details are different, but it reminds me a bit of the magic used in the bootstrap on the CDC 6000 mainframes. The "deadstart panel" (boot rom implemented as 12 rows of 12 toggle switches) does a rewind followed by reading the first tape block into the top of memory. During a read (or write) instruction, the program counter is temporarily stored in location 0 so it can be put to work as a buffer pointer instead. The starting address of the read is arranged so the block read wraps around into location zero, the last word of the block overwrites the saved PC and causes execution to continue at that address. Saves two words in the boot ROM. paul From jeffrey at vcfed.org Sun Mar 21 13:29:51 2021 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 14:29:51 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just responding to Richard: The current guidelines for New Jersey allow exceptions to mask where wearing a mask would endanger one's health. Jeff Brace Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Mar 21 13:33:38 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 13:33:38 -0500 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60579182.5070109@charter.net> Jeffery, Yep! All of the states have this provision. It isn't being told to the general public but it is there. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/21/2021 1:29 PM, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: > Just responding to Richard: > The current guidelines for New Jersey allow exceptions to mask where > wearing a mask would endanger one's health. > > Jeff Brace > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 13:06:43 2021 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 14:06:43 -0400 Subject: DECtape ancestry (Kyle Owen) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:21:44 -0400 > From: Kyle Owen > Subject: Re: DECtape ancestry > > What systems took advantage of the bidirectional nature? > > Kyle > ADSS on the PDP-9 does an interleave of 6 when reading/writing to the DECtape. If it runs off the end it reverses direction and keeps going. I have seen some library files take three passes of the DECtape to fully search. -- Michael Thompson From lars at nocrew.org Sun Mar 21 13:10:45 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 18:10:45 +0000 Subject: DECtape ancestry (Kyle Owen) In-Reply-To: (Michael Thompson via cctech's message of "Sun, 21 Mar 2021 14:06:43 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7wa6qws7h6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Michael Thompson wrote: > Kyle Owen wrote: >> What systems took advantage of the bidirectional nature? > > ADSS on the PDP-9 does an interleave of 6 when reading/writing to the > DECtape. If it runs off the end it reverses direction and keeps going. MIT's MACDMP (and by extension, ITS) does this too. I think some DEC format as well, right? From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 21 16:14:40 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 17:14:40 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <390896AE-8408-4055-B0F4-5A2D85697900@comcast.net> > On Mar 21, 2021, at 2:28 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Mar 21, 2021, at 9:35 AM, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> Trying again - my reply got chopped off for some reason. >> >> You have to read the bootstrap code in the TC0x driver to understand this. >> >> What happens is that the code watches the buffer pointer (7755) and when it hits 7642, the remaining read is directed to field 1. The boot is looping on 7616/DTSF and 7617/JMP .-1 when it's overwritten by the boot (the NOP below overwrites the DTSF). > > The details are different, but it reminds me a bit of the magic used in the bootstrap on the CDC 6000 mainframes. Another example and a more significant one of a self modifying boot loading process is the "emulator IPL" on the IBM 360 model 44. The "emulator" is a chunk of separate memory and control used to emulate the SS instructions not implemented in the hardware. I used such a machine in college and looked at the card deck for the emulator. IPL ("initial program load") reads a record from the boot device -- the card reader in this case -- which is a channel program that is then executed to read the actual initial code. In the emulator case, the rest of the card deck is a standard binary output file from the assembler -- think LDA format on a PDP-11. The first card is a nice concoction of several channel commands that read another card, drop the load address and byte count fields for that card into another channel command word, then executes that CCW to send the data on the card to the right memory location. It then loops back (CCW "command chaining") to do the same with the next card. So the entire deck load is executed by the channel, no CPU involvement at all, transfering the right number of bytes from each card to the location it asked for. I don't have any of this preserved, but it wouldn't be too hard to reconstruct the details from that description. An exercise for the student... :-) paul From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Mar 21 17:06:50 2021 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 18:06:50 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <55a76c68-8c49-208f-6ec5-7dc32b1d0b2b@rickmurphy.net> On 3/21/2021 10:05 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Mar 21, 2021, 09:35 Rick Murphy via cctalk > wrote: > >> You have to read the bootstrap code in the TC0x driver to understand this. >> > I agree with your assessments, but I'm referring to the first stage > bootloader: either your toggle-in or MI8E-based ROM bootstrap. In the case > of that, the PDP-8 is in a spin loop waiting for the first load of block 0 > into 07600; the rest of the bootstrap in the driver isn't yet loaded in > core. The instruction that's waiting on the done bit to be set is overwritten with a NOP while the bootstrap is being read.? This is common for bootstraps: minimal user-entered code that gets overwritten by the boot when it's being loaded into memory. > But you did answer the question that was bugging me, and that's the end > error flag getting set at the end of a block in single read mode. Nice, > thank you! > > I'm still a bit suspicious of the handling of WC overflow in SimH, even > though, as you point out, it does not matter here. The difference it makes > for the toggle-in boot process is whether or not it loads unnecessary code > at 1, after WC and CA both are overwritten with zeros. Either way, the > first read will terminate, but with default SimH behavior, the read > terminates early, after writing a zero to WC. > > In the 3-cycle break, WC is incremented in the first cycle. If a carry was > generated, the WC overflow flop is set. CA is incremented in the second > cycle. The actual data transfer happens in the third. Hence, overwriting > either WC or CA cannot affect either until the following cycle. So, writing > a zero to WC should not cause an overflow until 4096 breaks later. > > Am I looking at this correctly? You have to read the code to understand this. :) The setting of the WC to zero happens in the code I posted. "BOOT3", after the first read is completed into field 1 (skip loop just above BOOT3) to read block 1 into memory starting at 7600. It deposits 7577 (7600 minus 1) into the address field (7755) and zero into WC (7754) because the DCA of the address pointer zeroed the AC.? Once block 1 is read in, the boot jumps to OS/8 (7605 in field 0). ??? -Rick > Kyle > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 18:01:26 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 19:01:26 -0400 Subject: TC08 DECtape bootloader question In-Reply-To: <55a76c68-8c49-208f-6ec5-7dc32b1d0b2b@rickmurphy.net> References: <6dbe0a6b-b108-ab49-c413-fec12516be2f@rickmurphy.net> <55a76c68-8c49-208f-6ec5-7dc32b1d0b2b@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 21, 2021, 18:07 Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > The instruction that's waiting on the done bit to be set is overwritten > with a NOP while the bootstrap is being read. This is common for > bootstraps: minimal user-entered code that gets overwritten by the boot > when it's being loaded into memory. > > You have to read the code to understand this. :) > > The setting of the WC to zero happens in the code I posted. > Rick, I think we're talking about two different bits of code. The code I am referring to is here: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M847/m847/m847yc.pal It does not get rewritten, at least not right away. It's at 07554, and the first load happens at 07600, to get the rest of the bootloader code you're referring to. There's another almost identical loader I've seen used by the PDP-8/E Simulator for macOS, which is loaded at 0200 instead. The handler makes some comments: /BOOTSTRAP FOR DECTAPE MONITOR IS THE SAME AS FOR THE /DEC LIBRARY SYSTEM, RL MONITOR AND POLY BASIC - OR JUST /READ RECORD 0 INTO 7600 AND TRANSFER TO 7600 A LA DISK /MONITOR SYSTEM ON DECTAPE The code you're referring to has to get into memory somehow, and my question involves this process, not afterward. So, I think you're a step ahead here! :) I don't disagree with anything you've said regarding the rest of the boot process, though. Thanks, Kyle > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 21:04:39 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 22:04:39 -0400 Subject: ODE 2.1.1 documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:16 PM Ben Huntsman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello! > Does anyone have any old documentation for ODE 2.1.1, or relatively > close versions? I know "newer" versions have been released and have > documentation available, but there are some changes in some of the config > files that are very different from older versions. > ODE the OSF Development Environment? > For example when creating a sandbox, in the sandbox directory there is a > subdirectory called rc_files, that is supposed to have two files, "local" > and "shared", but they don't work the same way that rc_files/Buildconf and > Buildconf.exp work in newer versions... > > Anyone on here know anything about ODE, or any other sources of > information? > > Many thanks! > > From macro at orcam.me.uk Sun Mar 21 21:31:48 2021 From: macro at orcam.me.uk (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 03:31:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: VAXstation 2000 network & hardware guides (English & German) In-Reply-To: <09c101d71da1$7c26b290$747417b0$@gmail.com> References: <006301d71907$bb868620$32939260$@ntlworld.com> <021501d719a0$89097880$9b1c6980$@gmail.com> <09c101d71da1$7c26b290$747417b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 2021, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > These arrived this morning and they are scanned and OCR'd here:- > > https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onlY9td7hHhHPnUKV2bA?e=hDKwES > > I think I can scan at lower resolution and/or grey scale as these are a > bit on the huge side.... Storage is cheap nowadays so I'd keep whatever the master copy is at good quality. You can always convert to a lower resolution or a lossy format later on if you need to save space, but you can't recover lost fidelity once you've done so. Maciej From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 23:10:36 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 00:10:36 -0400 Subject: ODE 2.1.1 documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like I have the ODE source (with doc sources) for 2.3.4 and 2.3.6 2.3.4 is from 1997, 2.3.6 from 1998. Is that old enough for you? IANAL, but the copyright doc looks good Copyright (c), 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 The Open Group Research Institute ("TOG RI"), Permission is hereby granted to use, copy, modify and freely distribute the software in these files and their documentation for any purpose without fee, provided that the above copyright notice appears in all copies and that both the copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation. Further, provided that the name of The Open Group Research Institute TOG RI not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without prior written permission from TOG RI. TOG RI makes no representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or implied warranty. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Mar 22 05:17:08 2021 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:17:08 +0100 Subject: VAX rom patches - VAXstation 2000 SCSI boot, KA420 > 1GB boot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > I had some extra A4 pages with a VAXstation 2000 manual which covered > a preview PK2K kit for VMS, bootloader and ROM to allow use of the > VAXstation 2000 SCSI controller for more than just tapes. > > Rough scan at http://sync.absd.org/vax/VAX-PK2K-preview-kit.pdf (the > originals will be sent to someone who can do a better job) > > The pages led me to http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ which includes some goodies: > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k - uVAX-2k SCSI patches with source > for boot roms, VMB & VMS > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ka420 - ROM patches for KA420/KA430 boot > from >1GB disks > - http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/dk-552/ - VMS 5.2 patch to allow to > accept more SCSI disk devices > > (Starting a new thread in case there is (slightly) more general > interest for anyone interested in using the onboard uVAX-2K SCSI > controller more more than tapes (OK, OK, for anyone not running NetBSD > on their uVAX-2K interested in etc etc) - have cross posted to cctalk > & port-vax - hopefully not violating any conventions there) > > David Two years before I've tried to boot an VS2000 with those rom patches into NetBSD..it didn't work, since the VS2000 Boot code does'nt expext to have a disk connected to this controller and so it can't find a root fs at all. I did discuss this at port-vax and ragge suggested so set up a patched machine and connect it to the internet so he could try to fix this remotely. Sorry, it was my fault that this got never realized, I could'nt get a telnet port redirect to an VS3100 ony my net trough an Linksys router to work for some still unknown reason. I'm still interested to get this to work (for a friend, this isn't my VS2000), just have to get the machines to where I live now and try to setup this a 2nd time.. I hav'nt seen your crosspost to port-vax..huh? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ben at huntsmans.net Mon Mar 22 10:23:28 2021 From: ben at huntsmans.net (Ben Huntsman) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 15:23:28 +0000 Subject: ODE 2.1.1 documentation In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Tony! I'd love to see the 2.3.4 docs! I'm not sure that's old enough, but I don't know when they changed the format. The info I'm searching for is the documentation and hopefully an example of the contents of a sandbox's rc_files directory. In older versions, it should have "local", "local.tmpl", "shared", and "shared.tmpl", and in newer ones it's Buildconf and Buildconf.exp. Thank you so much! ________________________________ From: Tony Aiuto Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2021 9:10 PM To: Ben Huntsman ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ODE 2.1.1 documentation It looks like I have the ODE source (with doc sources) for 2.3.4 and 2.3.6 2.3.4 is from 1997, 2.3.6 from 1998. Is that old enough for you? IANAL, but the copyright doc looks good Copyright (c), 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 The Open Group Research Institute ("TOG RI"), Permission is hereby granted to use, copy, modify and freely distribute the software in these files and their documentation for any purpose without fee, provided that the above copyright notice appears in all copies and that both the copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation. Further, provided that the name of The Open Group Research Institute TOG RI not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without prior written permission from TOG RI. TOG RI makes no representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or implied warranty. From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Mar 22 09:13:17 2021 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 10:13:17 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> But, there have been no verified accounts of giant squid attacks in >> Wall, >> NJ. > I know Evan is doing a lot of train installation at his house, but I > suspect that and the Miata are distractions so we don't see the large > pool sized aquarium in the basement. > > Thanks > Jim My house is a bilevel, downstairs/upstairs. No basement. Also I have nothing to do with this swap meet event. I quit as VCF executive director in December 2019. I wanted to stay involved after that as a regular hobbyist, but then in November 2020 a bunch of the local members decided my contributions over 15 years are irrelevant and I'm not welcome there anymore. That included a bunch of people who I thought were some of my best and most trust "friends". Brace himself dismissed me as someone who "did some good things" as if I was a random dude who helped out now and then. Nevermind that I built that museum from scratch, turned VCF East into a MASSIVE event, increased the group's finances from a single $20 bill in 2006 into an annual budget in the five-figure range, brought VCF West back from the grave, and taught him everything he knows. Other VCF board members and local officers have asked me to come back -- some of them practically begged me -- but I'm not going to, as long as that guy thinks he's in charge (he's not). He is largely responsible for the organization losing a decade's worth of connections, external organizational partnerships/relationships, and institutional memory. From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 22 16:51:22 2021 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 16:51:22 -0500 Subject: Reference Card Scan (Re: Any info on a Western Peripherals DC-230 disk controller?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18a105f4-59e0-59cc-8e71-33a503fa5bd2@charter.net> I scanned the reference card I had - appears to be a RK11 compatible disk controller (but maybe/maybe not compatible at the drive bus level?) https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HBHDnEnpwE9OzDQjHEEasqci8KOfsw4p?usp=sharing (Al Kossow: Free free to grab, as always.) JRJ On 3/12/2021 5:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Any ideas what this disc controller is? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/PDP-11-Backplane-Western-Peripherals-DC-230-Disk-Controller-DEC-Digital-PDP/353417412426 > > Can't find much about this on the 'net, other than that it was a controller > for Diablo/Pertec style drives -- no idea if it's an RK11 clone or > something else entirely. Looks to be suitable for a PDP-11/20 given the > little notch missing from the side there, and the lack of a separate power > harness for the backplane. > > - Josh > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 23:38:47 2021 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 00:38:47 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: <605557FF.3030502@charter.net> References: <605557FF.3030502@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:03 PM Richard Pope wrote: > Tony, > What ever went wrong with my body 20 years ago when I came down > with the flu damaged my metabolism. The extra heat load on my lungs and > my core causes me to become sick in about 5 minutes. In 15 minutes I am > unresponsive, in 30 minutes I am unconsience, and in one hour my heart > stops. I almost died last summer in the heat and humidity on the side of > I-39 due to my disability. I can not wear a mask. Yes, I can still walk > short distances, I move very slowly, and I have to rest a lot. I am > staying out of a wheel chair as long as possible even though there are > days when I have to use one. If I were to come down with something I > would stay home. > That sounds like um, I think the technical term is, a big pain in the butt. I hope to see you there. April should still be cool enough outside so heat won't be a problem. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 05:16:21 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:16:21 +0100 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: <605557FF.3030502@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 05:39, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > > That sounds like um, I think the technical term is, a big pain in the butt. Look, TBH, sorry to be That Guy, but what it sounds like is made-up mumbo-jumbo with as much basis in science as saying his choler is too low and phlegm and bile out of equilibrium. It's an anti-masker trying to justify killing other people. It's no more valid than a gun nut shouting about the constitution when they've never been near a "well-organized militia" in their life. Keep well away from any people like this in real life. Do not come into physical contact with them, ever, anywhere. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From marvin at west.net Tue Mar 23 12:36:37 2021 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:36:37 -0700 Subject: BS was Re: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ (Liam Proven) Message-ID: <3b26a4d3-e694-99ef-57ea-90ef34013632@west.net> What a bunch of ^%#%#@$^. FYI, this is a listserver designed for classic computer discussions. Please save your diatribes for a more appropriate venue!!! Marvin > Look, TBH, sorry to be That Guy, but what it sounds like is made-up > mumbo-jumbo with as much basis in science as saying his choler is too > low and phlegm and bile out of equilibrium. > > It's an anti-masker trying to justify killing other people. It's no > more valid than a gun nut shouting about the constitution when they've > never been near a "well-organized militia" in their life. > > Keep well away from any people like this in real life. Do not come > into physical contact with them, ever, anywhere. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven From bdweb at mindspring.com Tue Mar 23 21:04:50 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 22:04:50 -0400 Subject: DEC CTI Bus Technical Manual, or looking for Ken Wellsch or Megan Gentry Message-ID: <39891518-3b5f-37b5-c89d-1610fb008df2@mindspring.com> Hello All, Does anyone have a copy of the DEC CTI Bus Technical Manual (EK-00CTI-TM-002) I can scan? If not, does anyone have an email address for Ken Wellsch or Megan Gentry as they both appear to be authorities on the CTI bus (see https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/DEC_Professional_(computer)/Archive question 10)? Thanks in advance! --Bjoren Davis From jeffrey at vcfed.org Tue Mar 23 21:04:58 2021 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 22:04:58 -0400 Subject: VCF Swap Meet in Wall, NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 9:33 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > What about giant squid? You dont think it can happen to you and then... > Don't worry Dr. Manhattan will take care of it. > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 8:47 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:58 PM Tony Aiuto wrote: >> >> > Nice. I have a lot of stuff I want to clean out of my basement. >> > >> > Will you be requiring masks for all attendees? Not doing so is a >> > deal breaker for me. >> > >> >> Yes. Everyone will need to wear a mask and follow all guidelines for NJ. >> Also keep in mind that this is an outdoor event so the risk is reduced. >> >> >> > >> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 6:50 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Announcing our second Annual Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet! >> >> Last year's Swap Meet was very successful so ... we are doing it again! >> >> >> >> *DATE*: April 24, 2021 (RAIN DATE: April 25, 2021) >> >> *TIME*: 8AM to 2PM >> >> *ADDRESS*: >> >> Parking Lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ >> >> Across from Infoage Museum and Brookdale College >> >> *GPS location*: https://goo.gl/maps/m1AAS4UUziGXnoPeA >> >> (40.1848793,-74.0630848) >> >> *WEBSITE*: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >> >> *EMAIL*: swapmeet at vcfed.org >> >> *PHONE*: 732-722-5015 >> >> >> >> Free to buyers. >> >> >> >> Vendor cost is per space. First space is $20, each additional space is >> >> $10. >> >> You can park in your space and sell out of your vehicle. >> >> >> >> *SEND PAYMENT TO*: paypal at vcfed.org (FRIENDS AND FAMILY OPTION) >> >> Write in the note section: >> >> [your name] >> >> VCF Swap Meet 4/24/2021 >> >> Number of spaces: >> >> >> >> *SWAP MEET SIGNUP*: https://forms.gle/kNCL8WVxTQcnw5nA6 >> >> >> >> * Reservation doesn't guarantee sales. >> >> * The Vintage Computer Federation is only providing a space, vendors >> must >> >> bring their own tables, tents, cars. >> >> * In case of inclement weather, money paid will be refunded. >> >> * All items that you bring must be taken with you. No items are to be >> left >> >> behind. >> >> * Port-o-potty on site. >> >> >> >> Jeff Brace >> >> ========================================= >> >> Vice President & Board Member >> >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >> >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> >> http://www.vcfed.org/ >> >> >> > >> > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 24 08:03:04 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 09:03:04 -0400 Subject: DEC CTI Bus Technical Manual, or looking for Ken Wellsch or Megan Gentry In-Reply-To: <39891518-3b5f-37b5-c89d-1610fb008df2@mindspring.com> References: <39891518-3b5f-37b5-c89d-1610fb008df2@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I'd be very interested in that document too. The closest I've seen is not very close, the technical description in XT_Hardware_Handbook_1982.pdf . But there's more detail that would be good to know, for example more information about what the option card ROMs look like. I sent a message to Megan, we'll see if she can help. paul > On Mar 23, 2021, at 10:04 PM, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > > Hello All, > > Does anyone have a copy of the DEC CTI Bus Technical Manual (EK-00CTI-TM-002) I can scan? > > If not, does anyone have an email address for Ken Wellsch or Megan Gentry as they both appear to be authorities on the CTI bus (see https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/DEC_Professional_(computer)/Archive question 10)? > > Thanks in advance! > > --Bjoren Davis > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 16:39:42 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:39:42 -0500 Subject: DEC pin Message-ID: Does anyone have a picture of the "I've been VAXinated" pin? I know I've seen this pin before, probably at some VCF event. Thanks, Kyle From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Mar 24 17:49:30 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:49:30 -0700 Subject: DEC pin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A67485-30AB-454E-9F9A-166A782509FC@fritzm.org> > On Mar 24, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a picture of the "I've been VAXinated" pin? I know I've > seen this pin before, probably at some VCF event. https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682110 Timely! --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Mar 24 18:10:41 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:10:41 -0700 Subject: seeking docs for Monlithic Systems 303-0158 unibus memory Message-ID: Subject line says it all -- I'm working on a restoration that includes one of these, and it looks as if it needs some troubleshooting/repair. I didn't see docs posted at Bitsavers. Anybody have a manual squirreled away? cheers, --FritzM. From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 19:58:30 2021 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:58:30 -0500 Subject: DEC pin In-Reply-To: <49A67485-30AB-454E-9F9A-166A782509FC@fritzm.org> References: <49A67485-30AB-454E-9F9A-166A782509FC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 17:50 Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682110 > > Timely! > > --FritzM. Thank you! It was a hard thing to search for. I kept getting all of these other results, for some odd reason... "Did you mean...?" No, actually I didn't! Kyle From commodorejohn at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 22:41:12 2021 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:41:12 -0700 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation Message-ID: So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" port. I got it bare, without the external PSU that would've gone with it, and I've since been unable to determine just what the heck I'm supposed to feed this thing. It's a standard barrel jack, but there's no markings on the case or the PCB to give any clue as to what voltage/amperage or polarity it expects, and Google has been no help at all. Does anyone have any recollection of these things? Any idea what they want for juice? To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on how these things operated? Given this, my only guess would be some kind of insane networked-framebuffer scheme where the host would blast video data in on the fly, but there's no way this was even 100Mbps Ethernet, and 10Mbps isn't nearly fast enough to transfer 150KB at 60FPS, and there's no memory to buffer it for a slower refresh. What in the heck is going on here? From commodorejohn at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 22:41:12 2021 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:41:12 -0700 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation Message-ID: So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" port. I got it bare, without the external PSU that would've gone with it, and I've since been unable to determine just what the heck I'm supposed to feed this thing. It's a standard barrel jack, but there's no markings on the case or the PCB to give any clue as to what voltage/amperage or polarity it expects, and Google has been no help at all. Does anyone have any recollection of these things? Any idea what they want for juice? To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on how these things operated? Given this, my only guess would be some kind of insane networked-framebuffer scheme where the host would blast video data in on the fly, but there's no way this was even 100Mbps Ethernet, and 10Mbps isn't nearly fast enough to transfer 150KB at 60FPS, and there's no memory to buffer it for a slower refresh. What in the heck is going on here? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 24 22:49:59 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation In-Reply-To: from John Ames via cctalk at "Mar 24, 21 08:41:12 pm" Message-ID: <202103250349.12P3nxj915401008@floodgap.com> > So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked > up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA > connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" > port. [...] > To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the > case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, > and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a > W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, > not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on > how these things operated? It might be text only. There's a mention in InfoWorld 11/18/91: "Maxspeed corp. has introduced a controller to connect a 386 or 486 running a multiuser operating system to eight of the company's MaxStation base units. The $1,495 SH-8 MaxStation Controller is scheduled to ship at the end of this month." From that era it could simply be 80x25. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Thu Mar 25 03:26:46 2021 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 08:26:46 +0000 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation In-Reply-To: <202103250349.12P3nxj915401008@floodgap.com> References: <202103250349.12P3nxj915401008@floodgap.com> Message-ID: It's been ages since I saw there, but it was definitely graphics; maximum cable length was pretty limited; 12 feet or so. IIRC, the video signal itself was carried over three pairs of wires. Fourth pair of wires was used for bidirectional communications (keyboard, mouse, printer, DAC management). All the box did was generate the video timing signals, and feed the data through the DAC out to the monitor. ?On 3/25/21, 4:50 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via cctalk" wrote: > So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked > up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA > connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" > port. [...] > To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the > case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, > and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a > W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, > not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on > how these things operated? It might be text only. There's a mention in InfoWorld 11/18/91: "Maxspeed corp. has introduced a controller to connect a 386 or 486 running a multiuser operating system to eight of the company's MaxStation base units. The $1,495 SH-8 MaxStation Controller is scheduled to ship at the end of this month." From that era it could simply be 80x25. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Thu Mar 25 00:41:22 2021 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:41:22 +0000 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's neither X nor ethernet. These worked with a special controller card that had 4 RJ45 connectors. That allowed four users to share a single Windows NT system. ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of John Ames via cctech Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:41 AM To: cctalk ; cctech Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" port. I got it bare, without the external PSU that would've gone with it, and I've since been unable to determine just what the heck I'm supposed to feed this thing. It's a standard barrel jack, but there's no markings on the case or the PCB to give any clue as to what voltage/amperage or polarity it expects, and Google has been no help at all. Does anyone have any recollection of these things? Any idea what they want for juice? To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on how these things operated? Given this, my only guess would be some kind of insane networked-framebuffer scheme where the host would blast video data in on the fly, but there's no way this was even 100Mbps Ethernet, and 10Mbps isn't nearly fast enough to transfer 150KB at 60FPS, and there's no memory to buffer it for a slower refresh. What in the heck is going on here? This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From commodorejohn at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 02:01:07 2021 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 00:01:07 -0700 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huh - wacky. Still pretty curious how it works just on a basic "how the hey does the framebuffer even function" level, but that's certainly interesting. Does make me feel less guilty about planning to cannibalize it for a homebrew project later, though! On 3/24/21, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > It's neither X nor ethernet. These worked with a special controller card > that had 4 RJ45 connectors. That allowed four users to share a single > Windows NT system. > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of John Ames via > cctech > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:41 AM > To: cctalk ; cctech > Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation > > So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked > up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA > connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" > port. I got it bare, without the external PSU that would've gone with > it, and I've since been unable to determine just what the heck I'm > supposed to feed this thing. It's a standard barrel jack, but there's > no markings on the case or the PCB to give any clue as to what > voltage/amperage or polarity it expects, and Google has been no help > at all. Does anyone have any recollection of these things? Any idea > what they want for juice? > > To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the > case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, > and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a > W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, > not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on > how these things operated? Given this, my only guess would be some > kind of insane networked-framebuffer scheme where the host would blast > video data in on the fly, but there's no way this was even 100Mbps > Ethernet, and 10Mbps isn't nearly fast enough to transfer 150KB at > 60FPS, and there's no memory to buffer it for a slower refresh. What > in the heck is going on here? > > This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, > confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally protected > information. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual > or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even if > the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail > immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, > reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any attachments > by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Mar 25 02:31:02 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 01:31:02 -0600 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:01 AM John Ames via cctech wrote: > Huh - wacky. Still pretty curious how it works just on a basic "how > the hey does the framebuffer even function" level, but that's > certainly interesting. Does make me feel less guilty about planning to > cannibalize it for a homebrew project later, though! > It's a text mode, which generates the screen image using rasterized fonts from the text + attributes stored in video memory. There is no frame buffer. With that little RAM it can support the text modes easily enough, but none of the graphics modes. Warner > On 3/24/21, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: > > It's neither X nor ethernet. These worked with a special controller card > > that had 4 RJ45 connectors. That allowed four users to share a single > > Windows NT system. > > ________________________________ > > From: cctech on behalf of John Ames via > > cctech > > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:41 AM > > To: cctalk ; cctech > > Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation > > > > So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked > > up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA > > connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" > > port. I got it bare, without the external PSU that would've gone with > > it, and I've since been unable to determine just what the heck I'm > > supposed to feed this thing. It's a standard barrel jack, but there's > > no markings on the case or the PCB to give any clue as to what > > voltage/amperage or polarity it expects, and Google has been no help > > at all. Does anyone have any recollection of these things? Any idea > > what they want for juice? > > > > To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the > > case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, > > and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a > > W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, > > not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on > > how these things operated? Given this, my only guess would be some > > kind of insane networked-framebuffer scheme where the host would blast > > video data in on the fly, but there's no way this was even 100Mbps > > Ethernet, and 10Mbps isn't nearly fast enough to transfer 150KB at > > 60FPS, and there's no memory to buffer it for a slower refresh. What > > in the heck is going on here? > > > > This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, > > confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally > protected > > information. The information is intended to be for the use of the > individual > > or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even > if > > the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail > > immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any disclosure, > > reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any > attachments > > by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is > prohibited. > > > From commodorejohn at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 02:46:02 2021 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 00:46:02 -0700 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hah, wow. On 3/25/21, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:01 AM John Ames via cctech > > wrote: > >> Huh - wacky. Still pretty curious how it works just on a basic "how >> the hey does the framebuffer even function" level, but that's >> certainly interesting. Does make me feel less guilty about planning to >> cannibalize it for a homebrew project later, though! >> > > It's a text mode, which generates the screen image using rasterized fonts > from the text + attributes stored in video memory. > > There is no frame buffer. With that little RAM it can support the text > modes easily enough, but none of the graphics modes. > > Warner > > >> On 3/24/21, Camiel Vanderhoeven >> wrote: >> > It's neither X nor ethernet. These worked with a special controller >> > card >> > that had 4 RJ45 connectors. That allowed four users to share a single >> > Windows NT system. >> > ________________________________ >> > From: cctech on behalf of John Ames via >> > cctech >> > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:41 AM >> > To: cctalk ; cctech >> > Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation >> > >> > So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked >> > up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA >> > connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" >> > port. I got it bare, without the external PSU that would've gone with >> > it, and I've since been unable to determine just what the heck I'm >> > supposed to feed this thing. It's a standard barrel jack, but there's >> > no markings on the case or the PCB to give any clue as to what >> > voltage/amperage or polarity it expects, and Google has been no help >> > at all. Does anyone have any recollection of these things? Any idea >> > what they want for juice? >> > >> > To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the >> > case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, >> > and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a >> > W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, >> > not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on >> > how these things operated? Given this, my only guess would be some >> > kind of insane networked-framebuffer scheme where the host would blast >> > video data in on the fly, but there's no way this was even 100Mbps >> > Ethernet, and 10Mbps isn't nearly fast enough to transfer 150KB at >> > 60FPS, and there's no memory to buffer it for a slower refresh. What >> > in the heck is going on here? >> > >> > This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, >> > confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally >> protected >> > information. The information is intended to be for the use of the >> individual >> > or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient (even >> if >> > the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail >> > immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any >> > disclosure, >> > reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any >> attachments >> > by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is >> prohibited. >> > >> > From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Mar 25 02:47:53 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 01:47:53 -0600 Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ISTR there were a few DOS-only video cards that had VGA outputs, but only did text mode for point of sale applications. I never used any of these myself, though... Warner On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:46 AM John Ames wrote: > Hah, wow. > > On 3/25/21, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:01 AM John Ames via cctech > > > > wrote: > > > >> Huh - wacky. Still pretty curious how it works just on a basic "how > >> the hey does the framebuffer even function" level, but that's > >> certainly interesting. Does make me feel less guilty about planning to > >> cannibalize it for a homebrew project later, though! > >> > > > > It's a text mode, which generates the screen image using rasterized fonts > > from the text + attributes stored in video memory. > > > > There is no frame buffer. With that little RAM it can support the text > > modes easily enough, but none of the graphics modes. > > > > Warner > > > > > >> On 3/24/21, Camiel Vanderhoeven > >> wrote: > >> > It's neither X nor ethernet. These worked with a special controller > >> > card > >> > that had 4 RJ45 connectors. That allowed four users to share a single > >> > Windows NT system. > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: cctech on behalf of John Ames > via > >> > cctech > >> > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:41 AM > >> > To: cctalk ; cctech > >> > Subject: MaxSpeed VGA MaxStation > >> > > >> > So, some months ago, I was in an electronics surplus store and picked > >> > up what was obviously an X terminal - tiny metal slab with a VGA > >> > connector, serial & parallel, AT keyboard, and RJ45 "communication" > >> > port. I got it bare, without the external PSU that would've gone with > >> > it, and I've since been unable to determine just what the heck I'm > >> > supposed to feed this thing. It's a standard barrel jack, but there's > >> > no markings on the case or the PCB to give any clue as to what > >> > voltage/amperage or polarity it expects, and Google has been no help > >> > at all. Does anyone have any recollection of these things? Any idea > >> > what they want for juice? > >> > > >> > To throw an extra mysterious wrinkle into this, when I popped open the > >> > case to get a look at the PCB, I found that, apart from the CPU, DART, > >> > and ROM, the only non-glue ICs on the board were an 8K SRAM and a > >> > W82C476 RAMDAC - but 8K isn't even remotely enough for a VGA screen, > >> > not even a monochrome one at VGA resolution! Am I missing something on > >> > how these things operated? Given this, my only guess would be some > >> > kind of insane networked-framebuffer scheme where the host would blast > >> > video data in on the fly, but there's no way this was even 100Mbps > >> > Ethernet, and 10Mbps isn't nearly fast enough to transfer 150KB at > >> > 60FPS, and there's no memory to buffer it for a slower refresh. What > >> > in the heck is going on here? > >> > > >> > This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain privileged, > >> > confidential, proprietary, private, copyrighted, or other legally > >> protected > >> > information. The information is intended to be for the use of the > >> individual > >> > or entity designated above. If you are not the intended recipient > (even > >> if > >> > the e-mail address above is yours), please notify us by return e-mail > >> > immediately, and delete the message and any attachments. Any > >> > disclosure, > >> > reproduction, distribution or other use of this message or any > >> attachments > >> > by an individual or entity other than the intended recipient is > >> prohibited. > >> > > >> > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 25 12:45:32 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:45:32 -0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious Message-ID: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Mar 25 12:54:55 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 10:54:55 -0700 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005e01d7219f$f78e6520$e6ab2f60$@net> > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 He is not. They actually don't have any real stock. They list a ridiculous price hoping they can find the item (or know of someone who has stock) and drop ship it. This guy probably has a lead on the item given the short shipping time. The difference between their cost and your price is their profit. Most of the sites you see online listing stuff (especially w/ ask or call us for pricing) are just middlemen without a warehouse. I tried to buy a Proliant part from one of these guys last year. Supposedly had two in stock and had to just bring them from his warehouse. Two months later nothing. Thank goodness for eBay money back guarantee. -Ali From mazzinia at tin.it Thu Mar 25 12:56:03 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:56:03 +0100 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <03cf01d721a0$1f80fcf0$5e82f6d0$@tin.it> Rofl, If he manages to find someone at that price, I will have to sell my micropolis 5"25 .... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 6:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 25 14:15:59 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:15:59 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <03cf01d721a0$1f80fcf0$5e82f6d0$@tin.it> References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> <03cf01d721a0$1f80fcf0$5e82f6d0$@tin.it> Message-ID: On 3/25/21 1:56 PM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: > Rofl, > > If he manages to find someone at that price, I will have to sell my > micropolis 5"25 .... I would gladly sell my brand new, still in the static bag, RZ28's for that price. bill From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Mar 25 16:27:33 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:27:33 -0500 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> <03cf01d721a0$1f80fcf0$5e82f6d0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <605D0045.2060904@charter.net> Bill, How much is the guy asking and for what? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/25/2021 2:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/25/21 1:56 PM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: >> Rofl, >> >> If he manages to find someone at that price, I will have to sell my >> micropolis 5"25 .... > > I would gladly sell my brand new, still in the static bag, RZ28's for > that price. > > bill > > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Mar 25 17:16:49 2021 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:16:49 +1100 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -0000, you wrote: >https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 Seller is German. Of course they are serious. The real question is whether they are sane. Guy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 25 17:40:58 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 22:40:58 -0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605D0045.2060904@charter.net> References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> <03cf01d721a0$1f80fcf0$5e82f6d0$@tin.it> <605D0045.2060904@charter.net> Message-ID: <026101d721c7$ed823160$c8869420$@ntlworld.com> It's a 240MB SCSI hard disk, they are asking about ?1,600 which is probably more than $2,000. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Richard Pope via > cctalk > Sent: 25 March 2021 21:28 > To: Bill Gunshannon ; General at ezwind.net; > Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious > > Bill, > How much is the guy asking and for what? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/25/2021 2:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/25/21 1:56 PM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: > >> Rofl, > >> > >> If he manages to find someone at that price, I will have to sell my > >> micropolis 5"25 .... > > > > I would gladly sell my brand new, still in the static bag, RZ28's for > > that price. > > > > bill > > > > From chd at chdickman.com Thu Mar 25 17:59:32 2021 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:59:32 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At least it is a physical item and not a two pixel tiff called "black and white", offered as an NFT for ?1M. On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:45 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 > > > > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Mar 25 18:16:16 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:16:16 -0500 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <605D19C0.2040907@charter.net> Guy, Agreed. Well by their thinking I should be able to get $1,000 for my IBM 100MB SCSI drive from the 1990s. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/25/2021 5:16 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -0000, you wrote: >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 > Seller is German. Of course they are serious. > > The real question is whether they are sane. > > Guy > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 25 18:40:52 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:40:52 -0700 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605D19C0.2040907@charter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <605D19C0.2040907@charter.net> Message-ID: <708bd2d3-a915-e50f-f4dd-6bf8ba969d94@sydex.com> On 3/25/21 4:16 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Guy, > ??? Agreed. Well by their thinking I should be able to get $1,000 for my > IBM 100MB SCSI drive from the 1990s. This isn't unusual. Commercial mission-critical parts often go for huge markups. If the maintenance spec for a given piece of equipment says "this is the drive that you need", then the sky's the limit. Consider that calling in a 3rd party service outfit to install the drive won't be cheap either. In a hobbyist/surplus market, the drive might bring $30 on a normal day. --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Mar 25 19:21:48 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 20:21:48 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605D19C0.2040907@charter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <605D19C0.2040907@charter.net> Message-ID: <9e0b5e7d-de11-9908-9207-e3a7ef0c4c46@alembic.crystel.com> Well, if there is no cost to asking that amount, why not? It's an inefficiency of Ebay that things can stay up there for years, but that is as it is. On 3/25/2021 7:16 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Guy, > ??? Agreed. Well by their thinking I should be able to get $1,000 for > my IBM 100MB SCSI drive from the 1990s. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/25/2021 5:16 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -0000, you wrote: >>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 >> Seller is German. Of course they are serious. >> >> The real question is whether they are sane. >> >> Guy >> > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 25 19:29:03 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 20:29:03 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605D0045.2060904@charter.net> References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> <03cf01d721a0$1f80fcf0$5e82f6d0$@tin.it> <605D0045.2060904@charter.net> Message-ID: On 3/25/21 5:27 PM, Richard Pope wrote: > Bill, > ??? How much is the guy asking and for what? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/25/2021 2:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/25/21 1:56 PM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: >>> Rofl, >>> >>> If he manages to find someone at that price, I will have to sell my >>> micropolis 5"25 .... >> >> I would gladly sell my brand new, still in the static bag, RZ28's for >> that price. >> >> bill >> >> > 1700 quid for an old SCSI disk. bill From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 25 20:56:14 2021 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:56:14 -0700 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <9e0b5e7d-de11-9908-9207-e3a7ef0c4c46@alembic.crystel.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <605D19C0.2040907@charter.net> <9e0b5e7d-de11-9908-9207-e3a7ef0c4c46@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 2021-Mar-25, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, if there is no cost to asking that amount, why not? It's an inefficiency of Ebay that things can stay up there for years, but that is as it is. It's been enough years I don't remember when I first saw it, this has been listed for 4-5 years or more: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-620-L-100-COMPUTER-620L100-620-L100/311466122329 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 26 03:02:20 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:02:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Guy Dunphy wrote: > At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -0000, you wrote: >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 > Seller is German. Of course they are serious. > The real question is whether they are sane. The better questions are: Why is the price marked in GBP and why doesn't he ship to Germany? (This is what Ebay Germany tells me!) So I absolutely agree with Ali concerning stock non-availability and the seller just being a broker. Christian From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Mar 26 03:24:10 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:24:10 +0100 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:02:20AM +0100, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: [...] > Why is the price marked in GBP and why doesn't he ship to Germany? Assuming anything gets shipped at all. Perhaps they don't want to take money from anybody too local who might cause them some grief. I note they ask ?260.00 for "Economy Delivery (Economy Int'l Postage)" to the Netherlands "between Wed. 31 Mar. and Fri. 16 Apr". That's quite the markup on a bit of bubblewrap, a Jiffy bag, and a ?7 stamp. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 26 03:36:41 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 08:36:41 -0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> The seller is also describing it as "refurbished", one of these days I am going to ask one of these sellers what refurbishment they do. The seller also has a 2.5" HDD for ?1,200, 2 left and 190 sold, can't imagine they sold for that price ? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti > via cctalk > Sent: 26 March 2021 08:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious > > On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Guy Dunphy wrote: > > At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -0000, you wrote: > >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 > > Seller is German. Of course they are serious. > > The real question is whether they are sane. > > The better questions are: > Why is the price marked in GBP and why doesn't he ship to Germany? > (This is what Ebay Germany tells me!) > So I absolutely agree with Ali concerning stock non-availability and the seller > just being a broker. > > Christian From mechanic_2 at charter.net Fri Mar 26 03:44:41 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 03:44:41 -0500 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> Rob, Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some of the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the good cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and then label the drive as being refurbished? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on hand delivering the item to the client! rich! On 3/26/2021 3:36 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > The seller is also describing it as "refurbished", one of these days I am going to ask one of these sellers what refurbishment they do. The seller also has a 2.5" HDD for ?1,200, 2 left and 190 sold, can't imagine they sold for that price ? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti >> via cctalk >> Sent: 26 March 2021 08:02 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious >> >> On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Guy Dunphy wrote: >>> At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -0000, you wrote: >>>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 >>> Seller is German. Of course they are serious. >>> The real question is whether they are sane. >> The better questions are: >> Why is the price marked in GBP and why doesn't he ship to Germany? >> (This is what Ebay Germany tells me!) >> So I absolutely agree with Ali concerning stock non-availability and the seller >> just being a broker. >> >> Christian > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 04:06:51 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:06:51 -0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <605D19C0.2040907@charter.net> <9e0b5e7d-de11-9908-9207-e3a7ef0c4c46@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <2e4401d7221f$5c255500$146fff00$@gmail.com> You can see the history if you click "see all revisions" you can see it has been there since at least December 2015 so five, going on six.. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert via > cctalk > Sent: 26 March 2021 01:56 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious > > On 2021-Mar-25, at 5:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Well, if there is no cost to asking that amount, why not? It's an inefficiency > of Ebay that things can stay up there for years, but that is as it is. > > It's been enough years I don't remember when I first saw it, this has been > listed for 4-5 years or more: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES- > 620-L-100-COMPUTER-620L100-620-L100/311466122329 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 26 04:08:04 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:08:04 -0000 Subject: Logic Analyser Usage Advice Message-ID: <027b01d7221f$87bd4e20$9737ea60$@ntlworld.com> I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug a problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think damage between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very experienced with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly. What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR and XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have connected the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and set the LA to clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to trigger on a particular address range (in the State Trace screen if anyone is familiar with this LA). When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes sense, because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock inputs so that I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral controller. However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I am wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the slow clock? I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock signal because I won't be able to capture the address and data values on the rising edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with traces full of useless data. Am I doing it right, or is there a technique that I am missing here? Thanks Rob From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 26 04:11:06 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:11:06 +0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5833bdb8-abfb-d0ae-055f-d2897267380c@ntlworld.com> On 26/03/2021 08:24, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Assuming anything gets shipped at all. Perhaps they don't want to take > money > from anybody too local who might cause them some grief. Well eBay will want the seller to make a refund if the buyer complains, and location doesn't make any difference there. In fact it would make return postage more expensive (at the seller's expense). For a drive of this quality, as a seller, you'd celarly want it back if the transaction went pear-shaped :-) > I note they ask ?260.00 for "Economy Delivery (Economy Int'l Postage)" to > the Netherlands "between Wed. 31 Mar. and Fri. 16 Apr". That's quite the > markup on a bit of bubblewrap, a Jiffy bag, and a ?7 stamp. > I think I'd want a tiny bit more wrapping for a hard drive than just a bit of bubblewrap. I know SCAN and eBuyer do just bubblewrap them, wrap a mailer around them and send them off, but when I sold drives on eBay I always sent them out in a foam-padded box with a cut-out. Then again I had access to those for nothing and I wasn't sending out hundreds a day. I do have some RD5x drives and I'd probably want to shift the excess (assuming there is any excess after I get around to testing them!) but I'd be really reluctant to ship those at all. I have no idea how much shock-proofing they would need to withstand the 1.5m drop that the parcel carriers all quote! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 26 04:15:31 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:15:31 +0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 26/03/2021 08:36, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > The seller is also describing it as "refurbished", one of these days I am going to ask one of these sellers what refurbishment they do. I'm planning to put the lid back on the RZ26, carefully pull back the label I had to destroy to get to the hidden screw and then polish the top surface of the case. I'll ship in an antistatic bag too, just to try to recreate that "BNIB" experience. I'll probably pitch it at ?1100 for a quick sale. > The seller also has a 2.5" HDD for ?1,200, 2 left and 190 sold, can't imagine they sold for that price ? Supply and demand. As the number of units remaining drops, the price goes up. This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or maybe it's French paper ...) :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Mar 26 05:30:04 2021 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 10:30:04 +0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 26/03/2021 09:15, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or > maybe it's French paper ...) :-) Possibly a test post to check how the system works. Years ago, eBay had a "test" category, for "items not for sale" or some such description. Anyone remember the "air guitar" that sold for something like $500? -- Pete Pete Turnbull From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 26 05:55:34 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 10:55:34 +0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 26/03/2021 10:30, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 26/03/2021 09:15, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or >> maybe it's French paper ...) :-) > > Possibly a test post to check how the system works.? Years ago, eBay > had a "test" category, for "items not for sale" or some such > description. Anyone remember the "air guitar" that sold for something > like $500? > Well looking at his other items, there are several similar posts. Also (to veer back towards being on-topic) a DCL User's Guide. -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 06:54:08 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 08:54:08 -0300 Subject: Logic Analyser Usage Advice In-Reply-To: <027b01d7221f$87bd4e20$9737ea60$@ntlworld.com> References: <027b01d7221f$87bd4e20$9737ea60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7dbfaf32-fbea-b4ec-5df4-4306250a6918@gmail.com> On 2021-03-26 6:08 a.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug a > problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think damage > between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very experienced > with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly. > > > > What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being > read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR and > XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have connected > the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and set the LA to > clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to trigger on a particular > address range (in the State Trace screen if anyone is familiar with this > LA). > > > > When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes sense, > because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock inputs so that > I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral controller. > However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I am > wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the slow > clock? > > > > I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock signal > because I won't be able to capture the address and data values on the rising > edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with traces full of > useless data. > > > > Am I doing it right, or is there a technique that I am missing here? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > I think you are the right track, If you wish to only capture register accesses you may want to qualify on the -ACK signal as the datasheet says it must be high for register access.? I would also clock on the rising edge? of the -XIOR and -XIOW signals as the data sheet seems to indicate that data is not valid on the falling edge. Paul. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 26 07:36:46 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:36:46 -0000 Subject: Logic Analyser Usage Advice In-Reply-To: <7dbfaf32-fbea-b4ec-5df4-4306250a6918@gmail.com> References: <027b01d7221f$87bd4e20$9737ea60$@ntlworld.com> <7dbfaf32-fbea-b4ec-5df4-4306250a6918@gmail.com> Message-ID: <028901d7223c$afc2f290$0f48d7b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Berger via > cctalk > Sent: 26 March 2021 11:54 > To: Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Subject: Re: Logic Analyser Usage Advice > > > On 2021-03-26 6:08 a.m., Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug > > a problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think > > damage between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very > > experienced with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly. > > > > > > > > What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being > > read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR > > and > > XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have > > connected the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and > > set the LA to clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to > > trigger on a particular address range (in the State Trace screen if > > anyone is familiar with this LA). > > > > > > > > When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes > > sense, because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock > > inputs so that I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral > controller. > > However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I > > am wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the > > slow clock? > > > > > > > > I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock > > signal because I won't be able to capture the address and data values > > on the rising edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with > > traces full of useless data. > > > > > > > > Am I doing it right, or is there a technique that I am missing here? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > > I think you are the right track, If you wish to only capture register accesses > you may want to qualify on the -ACK signal as the datasheet says it must be > high for register access. I would also clock on the rising edge of the -XIOR > and -XIOW signals as the data sheet seems to indicate that data is not valid > on the falling edge. Yes, I am using the -ACK signal too as part of the address and clocking on the rising edge of -XIOR and -XIOW. I wonder if the logic analyser itself might be faulty because I have set it to trigger on -ACK=1 and XA0-9=08X(hexadecimal, X=don't care), but I get XA values that do not match the trigger. I am wondering if it is problem with sampling too late after the rising edge maybe? Regards Rob From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 26 07:54:18 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 08:54:18 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> Message-ID: On 3/26/21 4:44 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Rob, > ??? Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some of > the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad > interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the good > cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and > then label the drive as being refurbished? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on > hand delivering the item to the client! I have brand new, in the static bag RZ28's in the hot swap case (don't know what it is actually called) that I have offered to sell in the past. Never had an offer over $10. It ain't worth the time, gas and effort of taking them to the PO for that. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 26 08:23:26 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:23:26 -0400 Subject: Logic Analyser Usage Advice In-Reply-To: <027b01d7221f$87bd4e20$9737ea60$@ntlworld.com> References: <027b01d7221f$87bd4e20$9737ea60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <96A18696-55AD-48ED-8170-8F182CC3DD61@comcast.net> > On Mar 26, 2021, at 5:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have an old HP 1630G logic analyser. I am trying to use it to debug a > problem with an 82C206 peripheral controller (or rather I think damage > between the CPU and the peripheral controller). I am not very experienced > with logic analysers and I wonder if I am using it correctly. > > What I am trying to do is see which internal registers are being > read/written and the values. To do this there are two signals (XIOR and > XIOW) that trigger the read/write on their rising edge. So I have connected > the XIOR and XIOW signals to the J and K clock inputs and set the LA to > clock on the rising edge. I have then told the LA to trigger on a particular > address range (in the State Trace screen if anyone is familiar with this > LA). > > When I run the analyser it complains of a slow clock. This makes sense, > because I am using the read/write signals to drive the clock inputs so that > I only capture actual reads and writes to the peripheral controller. > However, I don't seem to be getting sensible values in the trace and I am > wondering if the LA is really not capturing anything because of the slow > clock? > > I don't think it makes sense to clock the LA on the actual clock signal > because I won't be able to capture the address and data values on the rising > edge of the read/write signals and I would end up with traces full of > useless data. If you have the trigger set to the event you want that wouldn't be a problem; the LA would not store anything until the trigger hits. I have a different ancient logic analyzer, a Philips/Fluke model. It has "state plus timing" capture, meaning that it can capture sequences of clocked state changes, time-labeled waveforms, or both simultaneously. What you're doing corresponds to "state" capture, which uses a clock. If you're capturing with a clock that means the LA captures the inputs at each specified clock edge -- in your case, rising edge of either of those two signals. (Does it really have two clocks and defines that it captures on a clock event from either of them?) That would mean you see ONLY the points in time when that edge occurs. If you have a bus transaction that begins with a rising XIOR or XIOW, and then some other things happen -- like an address or data transfer perhaps accompanied by some control signal -- then what you're doing won't work because you won't be capturing those later points in time, since they don't occur at an XIOR/W edge. What you need instead is either to specify a constantly running bus clock as your clock, or capture in timing mode (every N nanoseconds) if the LA has such a mode. You would then specify a trigger along the lines of: wait for edge on XIOR or XIOW, then look for address in the range x to y. If the address is on the bus at that edge this is easy: "(rising XIOR or rising XIOW) and (addr >= x and addr <= y)". If the address occurs later, you'd have to specify something along the lines of "edge then address match within z nanoseconds" to describe an address match occurring within that same bus cycle. Or if the address is accompanied by an address strobe it would be "edge then within z nanoseconds (address strobe and address in range)". Depending on your LA trigger machinery you may be pushing the limits of what it can do. If all else fails you might need to concoct some external circuit to implement part of the trigger condition, and hook the output from that helper circuit to another LA pin as one of the trigger terms. paul From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Mar 26 10:14:08 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 08:14:08 -0700 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> Message-ID: <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> > Rob, > Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some > of > the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad > interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the > good > cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and > then label the drive as being refurbished? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on > hand delivering the item to the client! No, Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time things will work (HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. generally work). If it works great they just made enough money to cover their entire inventory of refurbished "whatever". If it doesn't they are just out the cost of the shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 Euros. Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I believe) form a seller in northern California "refurbished and guaranteed" off of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California was at $35 for UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S&H) was ok for me I went ahead. Both drives arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price of the drives and tried to keep the S&H. Pretty clever scam and would work on most people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S&H is "non-refundable". S&H was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to have me dispose of their junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back guarantee - eBay refunded the rest of the money post haste. I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that?s about it. -Ali From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 26 11:23:01 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:23:01 -0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> Message-ID: <02ab01d7225c$4b36b0d0$e1a41270$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Ali via cctalk > Sent: 26 March 2021 15:14 > To: 'Richard Pope' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious > > > Rob, > > Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some > > of the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad > > interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the > > good cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads > > and then label the drive as being refurbished? > > GOD Bless and Thanks, > > rich! > > P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on > > hand delivering the item to the client! > > No, > > Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time things > will work (HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. generally > work). If it works great they just made enough money to cover their entire > inventory of refurbished "whatever". If it doesn't they are just out the cost > of the shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 Euros. > > Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I > believe) form a seller in northern California "refurbished and guaranteed" off > of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California was at $35 for > UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S&H) was ok for me I went > ahead. Both drives arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price of the > drives and tried to keep the S&H. Pretty clever scam and would work on > most people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S&H is "non- > refundable". S&H was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to > have me dispose of their junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back > guarantee - eBay refunded the rest of the money post haste. > > I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that?s > about it. > > -Ali Yes, that is my suspicion that they don't do anything at all, that is why one day I am going to take the time to ask them what they do to refurbish them, just to see what they say. I seem to remember asking once and not getting a reply, hardly surprising! Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 26 12:41:12 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 10:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> Message-ID: For HDDs, "refurbished" probably means FORMAT'ed. In the old days, it sometimes meant a LOW-level format. SSTOR ("Speed-Store") and SPINRITE (Gibson's) "REFURBISHED" drives. For other things, it probably means plug it in and see if the power indicator comes on. Maybe even wipe it off with a damp rag. Maybe some isopropanol to scrub off the "NFG" that somebody had written on it with a sharpie. OR, "refurbish" gets the FRY's definition. Just sell it again. If it comes back, substitute another until the customer gets one that works. Put the bad one back on the shelf, and keep selling it until some customer doesn't go to the effort of bringing it back. Q: what does "FURBISH" mean? From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Fri Mar 26 13:10:06 2021 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:10:06 -0700 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> Message-ID: <1616782206.9920.7.camel@moondog> On Fri, 2021-03-26 at 10:41 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Q: what does "FURBISH" mean? According to the OED: 1) Remove the rust from, burnish, polish up (a sword, armour, etc.); 2) Clean up, renovate, revive, give a new look to (something dirty, faded, or old). I think "give a new look to" is what some of these sellers have in mind; "renovate, revive" maybe not so much. But removing the rust from a hard disk might not be what buyers expect. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 26 13:22:06 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <1616782206.9920.7.camel@moondog> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> <1616782206.9920.7.camel@moondog> Message-ID: >> Q: what does "FURBISH" mean? On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > According to the OED: 1) Remove the rust from, burnish, polish up (a > sword, armour, etc.); 2) Clean up, renovate, revive, give a new look to > (something dirty, faded, or old). > I think "give a new look to" is what some of these sellers have in mind; > "renovate, revive" maybe not so much. But removing the rust from a hard > disk might not be what buyers expect. Yep. Remove all of the unsightly "NFG" graffiti tagging. So, there's not a lot of difference between FURBISH and RE-FURBISH. "UNTESTED" used to mean that it hadn't been tried out. Now, it means that the technician was unable to repair it. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Mar 26 13:34:47 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:34:47 -0700 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> <1616782206.9920.7.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <007e01d7226e$b3e20500$1ba60f00$@net> > "UNTESTED" used to mean that it hadn't been tried out. > Now, it means that the technician was unable to repair it. > Not quite. It generally means we know it is broken/nonworking but we want wiggle room when you complain! -Ali From mechanic_2 at charter.net Fri Mar 26 13:56:49 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:56:49 -0500 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> Message-ID: <605E2E71.909@charter.net> Ali, You are probably correct but it was just something that i have done in the past to get a HDD working by combining two to make one. Just my two cents. Anyone want to buy a used, I believe it stills works, ANTIQUE and COLLECTABLE 100MB SCSI 1 HDD for say $1,000,000 OBO? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/26/2021 10:14 AM, Ali wrote: >> Rob, >> Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some >> of >> the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad >> interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the >> good >> cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and >> then label the drive as being refurbished? >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! >> P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on >> hand delivering the item to the client! > No, > > Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time things will work (HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. generally work). If it works great they just made enough money to cover their entire inventory of refurbished "whatever". If it doesn't they are just out the cost of the shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 Euros. > > Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I believe) form a seller in northern California "refurbished and guaranteed" off of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California was at $35 for UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S&H) was ok for me I went ahead. Both drives arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price of the drives and tried to keep the S&H. Pretty clever scam and would work on most people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S&H is "non-refundable". S&H was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to have me dispose of their junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back guarantee - eBay refunded the rest of the money post haste. > > I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that?s about it. > > -Ali > > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Fri Mar 26 14:09:49 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:09:49 -0500 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <605E317D.5010904@charter.net> Antonio, Wow! About $30 for one sheet of paper. Is gold woven into it? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/26/2021 4:15 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 26/03/2021 08:36, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> The seller is also describing it as "refurbished", one of these days >> I am going to ask one of these sellers what refurbishment they do. > > I'm planning to put the lid back on the RZ26, carefully pull back the > label I had to destroy to get to the hidden screw and then polish the > top surface of the case. I'll ship in an antistatic bag too, just to > try to recreate that "BNIB" experience. I'll probably pitch it at > ?1100 for a quick sale. > > >> The seller also has a 2.5" HDD for ?1,200, 2 left and 190 sold, can't >> imagine they sold for that price ? > > Supply and demand. As the number of units remaining drops, the price > goes up. This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" > paper: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 > (or maybe it's French paper ...) :-) > > > Antonio > > From fedorkow at mit.edu Fri Mar 26 14:15:36 2021 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:15:36 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able to help out a small historical display project by punching a few short paper tapes? I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are easiest. Thanks! /guy fedorkow fedorkow at mit.edu From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 14:16:45 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:16:45 -0500 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can easily punch and verify some tapes for you. -Eric On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:15 PM Guy Fedorkow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able to help > out a small historical display project by punching a few short paper tapes? > I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are easiest. > > Thanks! > /guy fedorkow > fedorkow at mit.edu > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 26 14:23:08 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605E317D.5010904@charter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605E317D.5010904@charter.net> Message-ID: > Supply and demand. As the number of units remaining drops, the price goes > up. This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or maybe > it's French paper ...) :-) The ordinary paper that consumers use throughout their everyday life such as newspapers, books, cereal boxes, etc., is primarily made of wood pulp; however, the paper should be composed of 75 percent cotton and 25 percent linen. This is what gives it its distinct look and feel. The security thread, and portrait or numberal watermarks should be already built into the paper when it is received. A 6mm wide 3-D security ribbon should be woven into the paper. Tilt the note back and forth while focusing on the blue ribbon. You will see the bells change to 100s as they move. When you tilt the note back and forth, the bells and 100s move side to side. When you tilt it side to side, they move up and down. The sheet of paper should be large enough for multiple images, which can be cut apart later. From fedorkow at mit.edu Fri Mar 26 14:31:39 2021 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:31:39 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> wow, what format? ? The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no recognizable coding like ASCII. ? Can you suggest what format you'd want? ? Thanks! /guy ps,? You can see some of the work behind this at https://www.historia-mollimercium.com/whirlwind/ On 3/26/2021 3:16 PM, Eric Moore wrote: > I can easily punch and verify some tapes for you. > > -Eric > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:15 PM Guy Fedorkow via cctalk > > wrote: > > Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able > to help > out a small historical display project by punching a few short > paper tapes? > I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are > easiest. > > Thanks! > /guy fedorkow > fedorkow at mit.edu > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 26 14:35:32 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:35:32 -0700 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/26/21 12:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: > wow, what format? > ? The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, > Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, > i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank Real Whirlwind tape is narrower than standard 1" paper tape. The reason I have not offered to do this is the blank tape that I have would not be period correct, nor the right width. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 14:38:59 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:38:59 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/26/21 12:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: > > wow, what format? > > The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, > > Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, > > i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank > > Real Whirlwind tape is narrower than standard 1" paper tape. > > The reason I have not offered to do this is the blank tape that I > have would not be period correct, nor the right width. > > Is it baudot width? If so someone in the Greenkeys mailing list can help. Or they'd be able to help regardless. I can print standard 1 inch tapes, I have a working Teletype right here in my office. Because that's what normal people have, right? lol Bill From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 14:40:17 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:40:17 -0500 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> Message-ID: I can punch arbitrary 8 bit data to 8 level tape. Is the MSB always 0? That is very easy to do, just make sure the binary looks right and as long as the pitch between bits is the same as 8 level tape you will end up with holes in the places you would expect. If you want 7 level tape punched with some custom width between bits, I.E. not compliant with EIA RS-227, I can not help you :) -Eric On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 2:31 PM Guy Fedorkow wrote: > wow, what format? > The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, > Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, > i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no > recognizable coding like ASCII. > Can you suggest what format you'd want? > > Thanks! > /guy > > ps, You can see some of the work behind this at > https://www.historia-mollimercium.com/whirlwind/ > > > > On 3/26/2021 3:16 PM, Eric Moore wrote: > > I can easily punch and verify some tapes for you. > > -Eric > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:15 PM Guy Fedorkow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Is there someone in North America that might be willing and able to help >> out a small historical display project by punching a few short paper >> tapes? >> I'm glad to try to accommodate whatever coding requirements are easiest. >> >> Thanks! >> /guy fedorkow >> fedorkow at mit.edu >> >> > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 26 14:57:17 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:57:17 -0500 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> Message-ID: <20210326200023.14BCC4E897@mx2.ezwind.net> At 12:41 PM 3/26/2021, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >Q: what does "FURBISH" mean? M-W says "to make lustrous" and "to give a new look to." "Refurbish" is "to brighten or freshen up." At Dell Outlet, for example, I think they call a computer "refurbished" even if it never left the warehouse - for example if someone custom-ordered a PC and then failed to pay or take delivery - that's a new computer but now it's refurbished and for sale as-configured. - John From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 26 15:02:25 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:02:25 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> Message-ID: <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> > On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: > > wow, what format? > The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, > Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, > i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no > recognizable coding like ASCII. Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track tape. I thought Whirlwind was one of those. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 15:10:44 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:10:44 -0700 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <20210326200023.14BCC4E897@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> <20210326200023.14BCC4E897@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Shirley this thread has run its course already From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 26 15:29:43 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:29:43 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> Message-ID: <076B3D24-07E8-4DF5-BF02-5C9EDD500165@comcast.net> > On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:35 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 3/26/21 12:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: >>> wow, what format? >>> The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, >>> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, >>> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank >> >> Real Whirlwind tape is narrower than standard 1" paper tape. >> >> The reason I have not offered to do this is the blank tape that I >> have would not be period correct, nor the right width. >> >> > Is it baudot width? If so someone in the Greenkeys mailing list can help. > Or they'd be able to help regardless. I can print standard 1 inch tapes, I > have a working Teletype right here in my office. Because that's what > normal people have, right? The most common widths are for 5 ("baudot") and 8 (ascii) tape, which have that number of tracks plus a sprocket track on 0.1 inch centers, closely filling the available space. But there is also 6-track tape (for typesetting machines) and 7 track (for some very old machines) that have paper width to match -- same track spacing, different track count. Those are rarely seen but specs for them can be found, I tripped over them not too long ago. Then for something nice and obscure there is 2-track tape ("Wheatstone") for punched Morse code. Creed and MacElroy (in Littleton, MA) made machines for that. paul From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Mar 26 15:37:52 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:37:52 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <024d01d7219e$a7c369b0$f74a3d10$@ntlworld.com> <03cf01d721a0$1f80fcf0$5e82f6d0$@tin.it> Message-ID: On 2021-03-25 15:15, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/25/21 1:56 PM, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: >> Rofl, >> >> If he manages to find someone at that price, I will have to sell my >> micropolis 5"25 .... > > I would gladly sell my brand new, still in the static bag, RZ28's for > that price. And that's the right thinking ... Everybody, who has dozens of old hard drives in the basement, doesn't have to worry about retirement anymore ;-) From fedorkow at mit.edu Fri Mar 26 15:43:36 2021 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:43:36 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul, ? You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with the same pitch as what became eight-track tape. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf ? I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track... There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but I'm certainly not going to try using one.? The tape is for "pedagogical" purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do fine. ? But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm glad to give it a try! ? And if we do end up with eight track tape, I'll be sure to add an attaboy for anyone else who notices! ? Thanks! /guy On 3/26/2021 4:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: >> >> wow, what format? >> The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, >> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, >> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no >> recognizable coding like ASCII. > Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track tape. I thought Whirlwind was one of those. > > paul > > From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 15:53:12 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:53:12 -0500 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> Message-ID: For short tapes, running it through a rotary paper cutter rig would let you cut it down to the right width. Problem is you could not use anything but a custom built or modified reader. Leaving the MSB 0 would get you accurate 7 bit bytes/words with 8 bit byte alignment for simplified reading and storing of files on modern systems, and allow usage of common punches and readers. I would suggest punching a number of 8 level tapes, then taking a few and cutting them down so you have readable tapes, and then historically accurate tapes for demonstration/display purposes. -Eric On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 3:43 PM Guy Fedorkow wrote: > Paul, > You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with > the same pitch as what became eight-track tape. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf > > I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an > eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track... > There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but > I'm certainly not going to try using one. The tape is for "pedagogical" > purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do > fine. > But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm > glad to give it a try! > > And if we do end up with eight track tape, I'll be sure to add an > attaboy for anyone else who notices! > Thanks! > /guy > > > On 3/26/2021 4:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Mar 26, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> wow, what format? > >> The codes I'm punching should line up with a long-dead machine, > >> Whirlwind from MIT, so I think you'd consider them to be 7-track binary, > >> i.e., same size as an 8-track teletype tape with one track blank, but no > >> recognizable coding like ASCII. > > Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track > tape. I thought Whirlwind was one of those. > > > > paul > > > > > > From bobh at tds.net Fri Mar 26 14:01:58 2021 From: bobh at tds.net (Robert Harrison) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:01:58 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <605E2E71.909@charter.net> References: <605E2E71.909@charter.net> Message-ID: My offer is $0.01, but only if you pay shipping. Hard to believe you actually got a serious offer. HaHa Sent from my iPhone Robert Harrison bobh at tds.net > On Mar 26, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > > ?Ali, > You are probably correct but it was just something that i have done in the past to get a HDD working by combining two to make one. Just my two cents. Anyone want to buy a used, I believe it stills works, ANTIQUE and COLLECTABLE 100MB SCSI 1 HDD for say $1,000,000 OBO? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/26/2021 10:14 AM, Ali wrote: >>> Rob, >>> Could it be that they get identical drives that don't work. Some >>> of >>> the drives have bad platters or heads and other drives have bad >>> interface cards but the platters and heads are ok. So they take the >>> good >>> cards and put them on the drives with the good platters and heads and >>> then label the drive as being refurbished? >>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>> rich! >>> P.S. I feel that around $300 USD is on high side unless they plan on >>> hand delivering the item to the client! >> No, >> >> Refurbished to these guys means "let's roll the dice". 95% of the time things will work (HDD being much more risk of course but boards, etc. generally work). If it works great they just made enough money to cover their entire inventory of refurbished "whatever". If it doesn't they are just out the cost of the shipping which as someone pointed out was about 7 Euros. >> >> Sometimes they try to get clever. I bought two Seagate HDDs (ST32550Ns I believe) form a seller in northern California "refurbished and guaranteed" off of eBay. Each drive cost $10. Shipping to southern California was at $35 for UPS ground. Given that the total price (price + S&H) was ok for me I went ahead. Both drives arrived DOA. Seller tried refunding just the price of the drives and tried to keep the S&H. Pretty clever scam and would work on most people as the seller refunded the cost of the item and S&H is "non-refundable". S&H was probably under $10 so they would have made $25 to have me dispose of their junk. Again thank goodness for eBay money back guarantee - eBay refunded the rest of the money post haste. >> >> I know of one seller who I trust to actually test before shipping and that?s about it. >> >> -Ali >> >> > From steven at malikoff.com Fri Mar 26 16:15:25 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:15:25 +1000 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Guy said > ? You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with > the same pitch as what became eight-track tape. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf > > ? I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an > eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track... > There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but > I'm certainly not going to try using one.? The tape is for "pedagogical" > purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do > fine. > ? But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm > glad to give it a try! Do you have some more detailed specs for Whirlwind tape? I can add it to ptap2dxf https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf It can do 8-level, 7-level, 5-level, Creed, USN Wheatstone, Morse, Teletype chadless and variations of those (mirrored, inverse, letters, sprocket hole any position etc) so another obscure format would be fun to add. Only a few of these have been physically tested mind you, as I don't have anything to read the odd ones with. Steve. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 26 16:33:32 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:33:32 +0000 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> , <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: I think it really depends on what reader he is putting it on. If it is a standard newer 8 bit reader, the ASR33 punched tape is fine. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Steve Malikoff via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 2:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: punching paper tape Guy said > You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with > the same pitch as what became eight-track tape. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf > > I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an > eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track... > There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but > I'm certainly not going to try using one. The tape is for "pedagogical" > purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do > fine. > But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm > glad to give it a try! Do you have some more detailed specs for Whirlwind tape? I can add it to ptap2dxf https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf It can do 8-level, 7-level, 5-level, Creed, USN Wheatstone, Morse, Teletype chadless and variations of those (mirrored, inverse, letters, sprocket hole any position etc) so another obscure format would be fun to add. Only a few of these have been physically tested mind you, as I don't have anything to read the odd ones with. Steve. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 16:35:45 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:35:45 +0000 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> <1616782206.9920.7.camel@moondog> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 6:22 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "UNTESTED" used to mean that it hadn't been tried out. > Now, it means that the technician was unable to repair it. And 'TESTED' does not mean 'working'. If I power up a hard drive and it sounds like a cat fed backwards through a lawnmower (aka a headcrash) then I've 'tested' it. OK, it has failed the test in terms of working, but.... 30-odd years ago there was a chap at a radio rally (much the same as a hamfest) with 2 piles of PC-type hard drives. One was 'tested and working'. The other was 'untested'. What's the betting that most, if not all, of the latter did not work? -tony From steven at malikoff.com Fri Mar 26 16:58:34 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:58:34 +1000 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> , <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Dwight said > I think it really depends on what reader he is putting it on. If it is a standard newer 8 bit reader, the ASR33 punched tape is fine. > Dwight OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used the same paper tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so I gather it's nothing special after all. Steve. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 26 18:01:38 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:01:38 -0700 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 3/26/21 2:58 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used the same paper tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so > I gather it's nothing special after all. > the best picture i have at hand of what a ww tape looks like is on the right of http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/pictures/start_of_sort_20180724/8.JPG you can see it is narrower by one punch than a normal 8-channel tape From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 26 19:41:43 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 20:41:43 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <37001E6C-DFB0-4479-884F-AEA417EE9C6B@comcast.net> > On Mar 26, 2021, at 7:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/26/21 2:58 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > >> OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used the same paper tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so >> I gather it's nothing special after all. > > the best picture i have at hand of what a ww tape looks like is on the right of > http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/pictures/start_of_sort_20180724/8.JPG > > you can see it is narrower by one punch than a normal 8-channel tape I can't find right now the drawings that show all the 5..8 channel tape layouts and dimensions, but I did see a number of references that speak of 7/8th inch tape for 7 channel layout. (Also 11/16 for the 5-channel case) paul From amp1ron at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 20:09:59 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:09:59 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <37001E6C-DFB0-4479-884F-AEA417EE9C6B@comcast.net> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <37001E6C-DFB0-4479-884F-AEA417EE9C6B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0BA395F7-129A-4C6E-BF0F-BDA704F311E9@gmail.com> On 3/26/21, 8:41 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk" wrote: > I can't find right now the drawings that show all the 5..8 channel tape layouts and dimensions, but I did see a > number of references that speak of 7/8th inch tape for 7 channel layout. (Also 11/16 for the 5-channel case) ECMA-10 defines some of the common punched tape layouts and includes dimensions and other requirements. I'm not sure if this is the document that Paul is referring to. https://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/ From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 21:33:13 2021 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:33:13 -0500 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <0BA395F7-129A-4C6E-BF0F-BDA704F311E9@gmail.com> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <37001E6C-DFB0-4479-884F-AEA417EE9C6B@comcast.net> <0BA395F7-129A-4C6E-BF0F-BDA704F311E9@gmail.com> Message-ID: The document refers to 8 bit (7+P+F) and 7 bit (6+P+F) using the same width, 25.4mm, for ECMA-10. >From the docs that have been linked, whirlwind tape was 7 bit, but not EIA-RS-227 or ECMA-10 compliant, but easily re-created by trimming a data bits width from normal 8 level tape. (LSB should be trimmed, not MSB, I think) I have a teletype BRPE which supported a 7 level tape format, but I do not know if it was ECMA-10 or whirlwind style, but it may be buried in the docs available online. -Eric On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 8:10 PM Ron Pool via cctalk wrote: > On 3/26/21, 8:41 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk" < > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I can't find right now the drawings that show all the 5..8 channel tape > layouts and dimensions, but I did see a > > number of references that speak of 7/8th inch tape for 7 channel > layout. (Also 11/16 for the 5-channel case) > > ECMA-10 defines some of the common punched tape layouts and includes > dimensions and other requirements. > I'm not sure if this is the document that Paul is referring to. > > https://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/ > > > > From steven at malikoff.com Fri Mar 26 22:09:18 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 13:09:18 +1000 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> <77eca77d9592ad48fc9c747f284d2862.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <63bdef73ddbfaca786b593cc8ff2c55a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Al said > the best picture i have at hand of what a ww tape looks like is on the right of > http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/pictures/start_of_sort_20180724/8.JPG > > you can see it is narrower by one punch than a normal 8-channel tape OK that really seems to be 7/8" wide 7-level, even though the 1965 ECMA doc says 7-level is 1" ...?? So I just added a --whirlwind flag to ptap2dxf (and pushed it up) to make physical tape that looks like that photo. It doesn't yet do any protocol mapping or whatnot as I don't quite get the gist of the Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf C:\path\to>ptap2dxf --whirlwind --text="012ABC" --output=WW.DXF +--------+ | OO. | | OO. O| | OO. O | |O . O| |O . O | |O . OO| +--------+ Joiner 0000: data byte 00000000 absolute position 00000006 C:\path\to>head -5 WW.DXF 0 SECTION 2 HEADER 9 . . . (And cut that tape DXF on a CNC stencil machine. I don't have my stencil cutter set up at this moment so I just printed it on paper and measured to confirm 7/8" wide, 7 data holes) But I suppose it's all a moot point if they don't have the original Whirlwind paper tape reader device to run it through :( Steve From rlloken at telus.net Sat Mar 27 01:13:15 2021 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 00:13:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC h8575-A Yours for Postage Message-ID: Ladies and Gentlemen, I was sifting through a huge box of industrial junk in my basement and found two NIB DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ adaptors in their original bags with a 1991 date code. The DB25 is female and the MMJ is, of course, a jack. Does anybody want them for postage from Athabasca, Alberta? -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Mar 27 02:52:18 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:52:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Paul Koning wrote: > Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track > tape. I thought Whirlwind was one of those. Yes, the LGP-30 uses 7-tack paper tape as well. Normal 8 track paper tape is 25.4mm, 7 track tape 22.2mm. The latter is absolutely unobtanium... (I think we have one or two spools). Christian From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 03:10:55 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 04:10:55 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <32baf802-c2a4-7c90-7412-121b68c5da2f@mit.edu> <4A39FC1B-BE0A-46EC-970C-A65674051CCE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1c7a01d722e0$b6571ce0$230556a0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 3:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: punching paper tape On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Paul Koning wrote: > Some machines used 7-track paper tape that is narrower than 8 track > tape. I thought Whirlwind was one of those. Yes, the LGP-30 uses 7-tack paper tape as well. Normal 8 track paper tape is 25.4mm, 7 track tape 22.2mm. The latter is absolutely unobtanium... (I think we have one or two spools). Christian ----- FYI, from a recent GK thread: I contacted https://www.adorablesupply.com to get clarification about their pin feed paper since sometimes people call 9.5" paper 8.5" if it has tear off edges. Turns out the guy who responded knew what a Teletype machine was. I mentioned Teletype restoration as a generic reference and his response was "I go back a long way with the Teletype 28's" They also can supply tape in both 11/16" and 1". I suspect they could also do 7/8". Wonder if they could do gummed back WU style tape? ----- From bobh at tds.net Fri Mar 26 16:08:46 2021 From: bobh at tds.net (Robert Harrison) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 17:08:46 -0400 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D483C47-337D-4BC5-9A23-FAA47682E493@tds.net> Who is Shirley? Yes, it surely has run its course. Sent from my iPhone Robert Harrison bobh at tds.net > On Mar 26, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > ?Shirley this thread has run its course already From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Mar 27 03:20:49 2021 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 03:20:49 -0500 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: <8D483C47-337D-4BC5-9A23-FAA47682E493@tds.net> References: <8D483C47-337D-4BC5-9A23-FAA47682E493@tds.net> Message-ID: <605EEAE1.7040308@charter.net> Bob, It is a joke from the Airplane movie. Shirley you jest! I told you not to call me Shirley! Shirley is substituted for surely. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/26/2021 4:08 PM, Robert Harrison via cctalk wrote: > Who is Shirley? Yes, it surely has run its course. > > Sent from my iPhone > Robert Harrison > bobh at tds.net > >> On Mar 26, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?Shirley this thread has run its course already > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 07:44:45 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 13:44:45 +0100 Subject: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20210326091649.015ed008@mail.optusnet.com.au> <027a01d7221b$2583e060$708ba120$@ntlworld.com> <605D9EF9.4010107@charter.net> <003a01d72252$abf287a0$03d796e0$@net> <20210326200023.14BCC4E897@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 at 21:11, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > Shirley this thread has run its course already I just wanted to tell you, good luck. We're all counting on you. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From fedorkow at mit.edu Sun Mar 28 14:19:08 2021 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:19:08 -0400 Subject: punching paper tape Message-ID: <7c3ac408-9280-4632-a92f-b1017e745f0d@mit.edu> ? Al K has read hundreds of these Whirlwind tapes using a standard 8-track optical reader, so I think we can confirm that it is punched with the common geometry, except one track narrower, with four bits on one side of the sprocket holes, and three bits on the other. ? The tapes are for pedagogical purpose, so if I can punch on inch-wide tape and perhaps trim the width later, that works just fine. Thanks all! ?/guy Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:01:38 -0700 From: Al Kossow To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: punching paper tape Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 3/26/21 2:58 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used > the same paper tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so > I gather it's nothing special after all. the best picture i have at hand of what a ww tape looks like is on the right of http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/pictures/start_of_sort_20180724/8.JPG you can see it is narrower by one punch than a normal 8-channel tape From rlloken at telus.net Sun Mar 28 15:41:01 2021 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 14:41:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC h8575-A Yours for Postage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The H8575s have found a new home. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From bob at jfcl.com Mon Mar 29 10:02:28 2021 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 08:02:28 -0700 Subject: XXDP diagnostic sources Message-ID: <005801d724ac$899a88e0$9ccf9aa0$@com> Hopefully this is an easy question - are the sources for the XXDP diagnostics online anywhere? I particularly looking for NKXA, the Falcon-11/KXT11/DCT11 one. Thanks, Bob From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 11:52:26 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 09:52:26 -0700 Subject: XXDP diagnostic sources In-Reply-To: <005801d724ac$899a88e0$9ccf9aa0$@com> References: <005801d724ac$899a88e0$9ccf9aa0$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 8:02 AM Robert Armstrong via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hopefully this is an easy question - are the sources for the XXDP > diagnostics online anywhere? I particularly looking for NKXA, the > Falcon-11/KXT11/DCT11 one. Source code listing scans are available for some of the XXDP diagnostics. Don't know if original machine readable source code is available anywhere. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0176_CNKXAA0_KXT-11.pdf From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 29 16:03:46 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 17:03:46 -0400 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents Message-ID: Hi! Given that other people seem interested in the Pro/350 series systems I thought I would dig out and scan some of the remaining manuals I have. These seem to have come from an agreement with SPSS back in 1982 or so and all appear to be draft documents. I'll upload them as I scan them (takes time) to https://www.crystel.com/pdp I'll upload a PDF file along with a zip file of the scans at 300dpi. Question: Would the SPSS manuals be interesting? Also I have an RSX11M 3.2 manual set in a big binder, worth scanning or is that up there already? I'm assuming the Fortran manuals have already been scanned in the past. Final thought: Looks like I have the spss/x floppies for the Pro version 1.0, are those out there somewhere already? Thanks! Chris From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 29 16:07:51 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 17:07:51 -0400 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SPSS, as in the statistics package? Interesting. I didn't know there was a PDP-11 port of that (I only ever used it, on rare occasions, on OS/360). In fact, COSAP was developed for RSTS mainly to deliver an interactive stats package with capabilities vaguely like SPSS but a much friendlier user interface. paul > On Mar 29, 2021, at 5:03 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Hi! > > Given that other people seem interested in the Pro/350 series systems I thought I would dig out and scan some of the remaining manuals I have. These seem to have come from an agreement with SPSS back in 1982 or so and all appear to be draft documents. > > I'll upload them as I scan them (takes time) to https://www.crystel.com/pdp > > I'll upload a PDF file along with a zip file of the scans at 300dpi. > > Question: Would the SPSS manuals be interesting? > > Also I have an RSX11M 3.2 manual set in a big binder, worth scanning or is that up there already? I'm assuming the Fortran manuals have already been scanned in the past. > > Final thought: Looks like I have the spss/x floppies for the Pro version 1.0, are those out there somewhere already? > > Thanks! > Chris From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 29 16:12:31 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 17:12:31 -0400 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3cdae78f-bd2c-d533-ce97-3ef47f131549@alembic.crystel.com> Yep. They did a whole manual and everything. I think I installed it on my 350 back in the early 90's for some school work. Fun stuff On 3/29/2021 5:07 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > SPSS, as in the statistics package? Interesting. I didn't know there was a PDP-11 port of that (I only ever used it, on rare occasions, on OS/360). In fact, COSAP was developed for RSTS mainly to deliver an interactive stats package with capabilities vaguely like SPSS but a much friendlier user interface. > > paul > >> On Mar 29, 2021, at 5:03 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi! >> >> Given that other people seem interested in the Pro/350 series systems I thought I would dig out and scan some of the remaining manuals I have. These seem to have come from an agreement with SPSS back in 1982 or so and all appear to be draft documents. >> >> I'll upload them as I scan them (takes time) to https://www.crystel.com/pdp >> >> I'll upload a PDF file along with a zip file of the scans at 300dpi. >> >> Question: Would the SPSS manuals be interesting? >> >> Also I have an RSX11M 3.2 manual set in a big binder, worth scanning or is that up there already? I'm assuming the Fortran manuals have already been scanned in the past. >> >> Final thought: Looks like I have the spss/x floppies for the Pro version 1.0, are those out there somewhere already? >> >> Thanks! >> Chris > From dstalk at execulink.com Mon Mar 29 16:33:20 2021 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 17:33:20 -0400 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210329213320.GA8280@cel2> Hi Chris, The SPSS manual by Nie, Hull, Jenkins,... would certainly be interesting. Don On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 05:03:46PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hi! > > Given that other people seem interested in the Pro/350 series systems I > thought I would dig out and scan some of the remaining manuals I have. These > seem to have come from an agreement with SPSS back in 1982 or so and all > appear to be draft documents. > > I'll upload them as I scan them (takes time) to https://www.crystel.com/pdp > > I'll upload a PDF file along with a zip file of the scans at 300dpi. > > Question: Would the SPSS manuals be interesting? > > Also I have an RSX11M 3.2 manual set in a big binder, worth scanning or is > that up there already? I'm assuming the Fortran manuals have already been > scanned in the past. > > Final thought: Looks like I have the spss/x floppies for the Pro version > 1.0, are those out there somewhere already? > > Thanks! > Chris From Mark at Misty.com Mon Mar 29 17:19:58 2021 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 18:19:58 -0400 Subject: XXDP diagnostic sources In-Reply-To: <005801d724ac$899a88e0$9ccf9aa0$@com> References: <005801d724ac$899a88e0$9ccf9aa0$@com> Message-ID: <20210329221958.GA11700@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 08:02:28AM -0700, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully this is an easy question - are the sources for the XXDP > diagnostics online anywhere? I particularly looking for NKXA, the > Falcon-11/KXT11/DCT11 one. Not sure if it helps any, but this was recently posted: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: XXDP+ recovered source From: Ian Hammond I've finally completed reverse-assembling the full source code of the XXDP+ monitor (HMDLD0) and uploaded it to github, along with transcriptions of the XXDP+ File Structure specification and the XXDP V2 Driver Guide (minus the appendices), along with originals of some related documents. https://github.com/rust11/xxdp/tree/main -- Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE From Mark at Misty.com Mon Mar 29 17:19:58 2021 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 18:19:58 -0400 Subject: XXDP diagnostic sources In-Reply-To: <005801d724ac$899a88e0$9ccf9aa0$@com> References: <005801d724ac$899a88e0$9ccf9aa0$@com> Message-ID: <20210329221958.GA11700@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 08:02:28AM -0700, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully this is an easy question - are the sources for the XXDP > diagnostics online anywhere? I particularly looking for NKXA, the > Falcon-11/KXT11/DCT11 one. Not sure if it helps any, but this was recently posted: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: XXDP+ recovered source From: Ian Hammond I've finally completed reverse-assembling the full source code of the XXDP+ monitor (HMDLD0) and uploaded it to github, along with transcriptions of the XXDP+ File Structure specification and the XXDP V2 Driver Guide (minus the appendices), along with originals of some related documents. https://github.com/rust11/xxdp/tree/main -- Mark G. Thomas , KC3DRE From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 29 20:27:58 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:27:58 -0400 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents In-Reply-To: <20210329213320.GA8280@cel2> References: <20210329213320.GA8280@cel2> Message-ID: <9f8a2890-d268-bb19-1989-e26364c9c7a8@alembic.crystel.com> Well, what I have is this: SPSS/Pro introductory guide (2) SPSS/Pro for DEC professional/350 SPSS-X User's guide, third edition (Think telephone book) 4 disks VOL NAME SPSSPRO1 (to 4) Hey, in one of the manuals there is an additional disk SPSS/Pro DEMONSTRATION I guess I can copy them on my Pro/380 to other disks, but does anyone have a better way to make a spare copy? They are almost 40 years old at this point... Interesting stuff. C On 3/29/2021 5:33 PM, Don Stalkowski wrote: > Hi Chris, > > The SPSS manual by Nie, Hull, Jenkins,... would certainly be > interesting. > > Don > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 05:03:46PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Hi! >> >> Given that other people seem interested in the Pro/350 series systems I >> thought I would dig out and scan some of the remaining manuals I have. These >> seem to have come from an agreement with SPSS back in 1982 or so and all >> appear to be draft documents. >> >> I'll upload them as I scan them (takes time) to https://www.crystel.com/pdp >> >> I'll upload a PDF file along with a zip file of the scans at 300dpi. >> >> Question: Would the SPSS manuals be interesting? >> >> Also I have an RSX11M 3.2 manual set in a big binder, worth scanning or is >> that up there already? I'm assuming the Fortran manuals have already been >> scanned in the past. >> >> Final thought: Looks like I have the spss/x floppies for the Pro version >> 1.0, are those out there somewhere already? >> >> Thanks! >> Chris From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 29 21:04:10 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 22:04:10 -0400 Subject: TSX Message-ID: <0b1ceb0f-2ace-30a6-b5e3-d16567318c46@alembic.crystel.com> Also came across a TSX Plus reference guide and install guide, from 1985. These two fill a very large binder, have they already been scanned? If not I'll burn out my scanner doing these. If so I can pulp or Ebay them. C From jsw at ieee.org Mon Mar 29 21:44:58 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:44:58 -0500 Subject: TSX In-Reply-To: <0b1ceb0f-2ace-30a6-b5e3-d16567318c46@alembic.crystel.com> References: <0b1ceb0f-2ace-30a6-b5e3-d16567318c46@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: This is probably TSX V6.2?? There are copies of this version here - https://shop-pdp.net/~stuff/PDFs/TSX-Plus/ ? Jerry On 3/29/21 9:04 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Also came across a TSX Plus reference guide and install guide, from > 1985. These two fill a very large binder, have they already been scanned? > > If not I'll burn out my scanner doing these. If so I can pulp or Ebay > them. > > C > From drb at msu.edu Mon Mar 29 22:35:31 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 23:35:31 -0400 Subject: TSX In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 29 Mar 2021 22:04:10 -0400.) <0b1ceb0f-2ace-30a6-b5e3-d16567318c46@alembic.crystel.com> References: <0b1ceb0f-2ace-30a6-b5e3-d16567318c46@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20210330033540.7CD70321381@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Also came across a TSX Plus reference guide and install guide, from > 1985. These two fill a very large binder, have they already been > scanned? The 6.50 manuals, TSX Plus 6.50, and the COBOL and RTSORT layered products are also available here: http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org/ De From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Tue Mar 30 06:02:23 2021 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:02:23 +0200 Subject: head alignment tape Message-ID: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> Does this head alignment tape need saving ? https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/computer-zubehoer/komponenten-zubehoer/5-stk-vintage-computer-tapes-memorex-pericomp-etc/43582741 I'd be inclined to think that the alignment tape would suffer to same issues as all old tapes, but then this is rare enough to be mentioned here. Jos From doug at doughq.com Tue Mar 30 06:14:15 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 22:14:15 +1100 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: I will never know - They use some sort of filter that prevents access from Australia. Perhaps somebody would like to post the photo and description Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 at 22:02, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > > Does this head alignment tape need saving ? > > > > https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/computer-zubehoer/komponenten-zubehoer/5-stk-vintage-computer-tapes-memorex-pericomp-etc/43582741 > > > I'd be inclined to think that the alignment tape would suffer to same > issues as all old tapes, but then this is rare enough to be mentioned here. > > > Jos > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 07:22:45 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 20:22:45 +0800 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: I can't see the page either. I am in Perth in Western Australia. I suspect that the website has some very coarse geo-blocking filter blocking the entire Asia-Pacific region rather than countries like China and North Korea which they actually try to target. It is just a lazy and somewhat dumb attempt at keeping the bad guys out. Best regards Tom Hunter On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:14 PM Doug Jackson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I will never know - They use some sort of filter that prevents access from > Australia. > > Perhaps somebody would like to post the photo and description > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for > your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which > case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal > liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally > sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G > > > > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 at 22:02, Jos Dreesen via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > Does this head alignment tape need saving ? > > > > > > > > > https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/computer-zubehoer/komponenten-zubehoer/5-stk-vintage-computer-tapes-memorex-pericomp-etc/43582741 > > > > > > I'd be inclined to think that the alignment tape would suffer to same > > issues as all old tapes, but then this is rare enough to be mentioned > here. > > > > > > Jos > > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 30 08:13:24 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:13:24 -0400 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: Your website is defective: it claims to be using a "security service" to block access. It doesn't say what its reasons are for blocking access, so I assume the answer is "the so-called service is provided by fools". paul > On Mar 30, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > > > Does this head alignment tape need saving ? > > > https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/computer-zubehoer/komponenten-zubehoer/5-stk-vintage-computer-tapes-memorex-pericomp-etc/43582741 > > > I'd be inclined to think that the alignment tape would suffer to same issues as all old tapes, but then this is rare enough to be mentioned here. > > > Jos > From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Tue Mar 30 08:15:34 2021 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:15:34 +0200 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <5f0c07d2-4a6d-8a72-e30b-ad68838c0fe0@ljw.me.uk> On 30/03/21 1:02 pm, Jos Dreesen via cctech wrote: > Does this head alignment tape need saving ? > > > https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/computer-zubehoer/komponenten-zubehoer/5-stk-vintage-computer-tapes-memorex-pericomp-etc/43582741 > > > > I'd be inclined to think that the alignment tape would suffer to same > issues as all old tapes, but then this is rare enough to be mentioned > here. > > > Jos > Unless someone else in this region needs them, I am sure our company can get them to add to the collection. Lawrence -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 30 08:32:48 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:32:48 -0400 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents In-Reply-To: <9f8a2890-d268-bb19-1989-e26364c9c7a8@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20210329213320.GA8280@cel2> <9f8a2890-d268-bb19-1989-e26364c9c7a8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <28409389-EA8C-426D-849C-EA854A7D7E43@comcast.net> Do you have a PC with a 5.25 inch floppy drive? Those can read DEC floppies if you set them for 10 sector mode. If you check out the current version of my "FLX" utility (for processing RSTS file systems) you'll find another utility that can copy floppies to/from image files, including handling the RX50 interleaving. paul > On Mar 29, 2021, at 9:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Well, what I have is this: > > SPSS/Pro introductory guide > (2) SPSS/Pro for DEC professional/350 > SPSS-X User's guide, third edition (Think telephone book) > 4 disks VOL NAME SPSSPRO1 (to 4) > > > Hey, in one of the manuals there is an additional disk SPSS/Pro DEMONSTRATION > > I guess I can copy them on my Pro/380 to other disks, but does anyone have a better way to make a spare copy? They are almost 40 years old at this point... > > Interesting stuff. > > C From ccth6600 at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 09:13:13 2021 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 22:13:13 +0800 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: I agree with Paul. The most foolish part in geo-blocking is that it is trivially overcome by using one of the many VPN services. I am sure that the "bad guys" know how to use a VPN or other maybe more sinister techniques to access these types of websites. All this nonsense just hurts the innocent maybe not-so-technical guy who would like to access some not-so-important information. :-) Best regards Tom Hunter On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Your website is defective: it claims to be using a "security service" to > block access. It doesn't say what its reasons are for blocking access, so > I assume the answer is "the so-called service is provided by fools". > > paul > > > On Mar 30, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > Does this head alignment tape need saving ? > > > > > > > https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/computer-zubehoer/komponenten-zubehoer/5-stk-vintage-computer-tapes-memorex-pericomp-etc/43582741 > > > > > > I'd be inclined to think that the alignment tape would suffer to same > issues as all old tapes, but then this is rare enough to be mentioned here. > > > > > > Jos > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 30 09:58:16 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:58:16 -0500 Subject: TSX In-Reply-To: <20210330033540.7CD70321381@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <0b1ceb0f-2ace-30a6-b5e3-d16567318c46@alembic.crystel.com> <20210330033540.7CD70321381@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <002001d72575$1da394a0$58eabde0$@classiccmp.org> Re: http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org in order to get the approval of S&H to host their product and manuals, we had to agree to some specific conditions to make them available to the public. Please use http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org as the company-sanctioned distribution point. The archive apparently at https://shop-pdp.net/~stuff/PDFs/TSX-Plus/ seems to be a pirated "not approved by the owners of the software" copy. Best, J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Dennis Boone via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 10:36 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TSX > Also came across a TSX Plus reference guide and install guide, from > 1985. These two fill a very large binder, have they already been > scanned? The 6.50 manuals, TSX Plus 6.50, and the COBOL and RTSORT layered products are also available here: http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org/ De From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 14:13:00 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:13:00 -0700 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <9281D87C-B7C8-4213-B834-12AD8D82EC20@gmail.com> Can?t see the web page, it?s blocked. But yes, I could definitely use an alignment taoe. Marc > On Mar 30, 2021, at 4:02 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > ? > > Does this head alignment tape need saving ? > > > https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/computer-zubehoer/komponenten-zubehoer/5-stk-vintage-computer-tapes-memorex-pericomp-etc/43582741 > > > I'd be inclined to think that the alignment tape would suffer to same issues as all old tapes, but then this is rare enough to be mentioned here. > > > Jos > From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Tue Mar 30 14:21:39 2021 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:21:39 +0200 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: <9281D87C-B7C8-4213-B834-12AD8D82EC20@gmail.com> References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> <9281D87C-B7C8-4213-B834-12AD8D82EC20@gmail.com> Message-ID: <09125374-63f0-9212-655c-551232fc1440@bluewin.ch> On 30.03.21 21:13, Curious Marc wrote: > Can?t see the web page, it?s blocked. But yes, I could definitely use an alignment taoe. > Marc > Sorry all, Did not realize that site was geoblocked, it is some sort of local (i.e. Swiss) Craigslist. I will not copy the whole advert, but this is what is for sale ( 50 CHF, around 60 USD for all 5 tapes ) 1 Stk. Pericomp Master Head Alignement Tape 1 Stk. Memorex IV Quantum-CX 6250 DPI 1 Stk. Memorex Quantum-CX 2 Stk. Univac Testtape Note that I am not the seller, just want to point out what I believe is a rare item Jos From mark at matlockfamily.com Tue Mar 30 13:19:06 2021 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:19:06 -0500 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents Message-ID: <4091588E-6340-43F4-834C-20C6267F4465@matlockfamily.com> > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:27:58 -0400 > From: Chris Zach > To: dstalk at execulink.com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > Subject: Re: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents > Message-ID: <9f8a2890-d268-bb19-1989-e26364c9c7a8 at alembic.crystel.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Well, what I have is this: > > SPSS/Pro introductory guide > (2) SPSS/Pro for DEC professional/350 > SPSS-X User's guide, third edition (Think telephone book) > 4 disks VOL NAME SPSSPRO1 (to 4) > > > Hey, in one of the manuals there is an additional disk SPSS/Pro > DEMONSTRATION > > I guess I can copy them on my Pro/380 to other disks, but does anyone > have a better way to make a spare copy? They are almost 40 years old at > this point... > > Interesting stuff. > > C Chris, There was also a SPSS-11 for RSX and your SPSS for Pro/350 would likely be a later version. A few years ago I bought the SPSS-11 manual from an Ebay seller. It looks like SPSS-11 ran a lot like the IBM OS/360 version in that it was feed a file of input and it produced a file of output (like a batch job). The Pro 350 version was likely a bit more interactive and I would be very interested in getting a copy of it. As far as the best way to get a copy made, it would be great to read them on a M+ system that has TCP/IP or is at least connected to HECnet so the disk images could be uploaded somewhere. Also, the manuals would be of interest as well. The SPSS-11 manual I have is a relatively thin paperback book. Thanks, Mark From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Mar 30 14:54:24 2021 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (p.gebhardt at ymail.com) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 19:54:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: <09125374-63f0-9212-655c-551232fc1440@bluewin.ch> References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> <9281D87C-B7C8-4213-B834-12AD8D82EC20@gmail.com> <09125374-63f0-9212-655c-551232fc1440@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <727466817.3345950.1617134064910@mail.yahoo.com> hi list, I am very interested in the tapes and contacted the seller. Let's see if they are still available. cheers, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Dienstag, 30. M?rz 2021, 21:21:47 MESZ hat Jos Dreesen via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: On 30.03.21 21:13, Curious Marc wrote: > Can?t see the web page, it?s blocked. But yes, I could definitely use an alignment taoe. > Marc > Sorry all, Did not realize that site was geoblocked, it is some sort of local (i.e. Swiss)? Craigslist. I will not copy the whole advert, but this is? what is for sale ( 50 CHF, around 60 USD for all 5 tapes ) 1 Stk. Pericomp Master Head Alignement Tape 1 Stk. Memorex IV Quantum-CX 6250 DPI 1 Stk. Memorex Quantum-CX 2 Stk. Univac Testtape Note that? I am not the seller, just want to point out what I believe is a rare item Jos From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 30 17:58:27 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 18:58:27 -0400 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents In-Reply-To: <4091588E-6340-43F4-834C-20C6267F4465@matlockfamily.com> References: <4091588E-6340-43F4-834C-20C6267F4465@matlockfamily.com> Message-ID: <449eea0e-b07f-2fd4-6d67-de9c0dcb7eb8@alembic.crystel.com> > ? ?The Pro 350 version was likely a bit more interactive and I would be > very interested in getting a copy of it. As far as the best way to get a > copy made, it would be great to read them on a M+ system that has TCP/IP > or is at least connected to HECnet so the disk images could be uploaded > somewhere. Also, the manuals would be of interest as well. The SPSS-11 > manual I have is a relatively thin paperback book. It was pretty cool, I think you could do graphs and the like on the screen as well and send them to the LA50 printer (I bought one of those on Ebay for like $10 bucks, I wonder where it is). But now I guess I will have to drag out my Deskpro/XE which should have a 5.25 inch floppy and see if it still works, is clean, and won't shred the disks. So how can one scan a soft bound manual without destroying it in the process? C > > Thanks, > Mark > From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Mar 30 18:12:53 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 17:12:53 -0600 Subject: Pro350/"XT" pre-release documents In-Reply-To: <449eea0e-b07f-2fd4-6d67-de9c0dcb7eb8@alembic.crystel.com> References: <4091588E-6340-43F4-834C-20C6267F4465@matlockfamily.com> <449eea0e-b07f-2fd4-6d67-de9c0dcb7eb8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 4:58 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > The Pro 350 version was likely a bit more interactive and I would be > > very interested in getting a copy of it. As far as the best way to get a > > copy made, it would be great to read them on a M+ system that has TCP/IP > > or is at least connected to HECnet so the disk images could be uploaded > > somewhere. Also, the manuals would be of interest as well. The SPSS-11 > > manual I have is a relatively thin paperback book. > > It was pretty cool, I think you could do graphs and the like on the > screen as well and send them to the LA50 printer (I bought one of those > on Ebay for like $10 bucks, I wonder where it is). But now I guess I > will have to drag out my Deskpro/XE which should have a 5.25 inch floppy > and see if it still works, is clean, and won't shred the disks. > Heck, I have a letterwriter 100 I'd ship to someone that wanted to play with this. Warner > So how can one scan a soft bound manual without destroying it in the > process? > > C > > > > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 30 19:13:37 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 19:13:37 -0500 Subject: head alignment tape In-Reply-To: <9281D87C-B7C8-4213-B834-12AD8D82EC20@gmail.com> References: <74b53a87-cd4a-1fa9-d4d9-50998f4b2fac@bluewin.ch> <9281D87C-B7C8-4213-B834-12AD8D82EC20@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6063BEB1.4030906@pico-systems.com> On 03/30/2021 02:13 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Can?t see the web page, it?s blocked. But yes, I could definitely use an alignment taoe. > If you have access to a drive that is properly aligned, you can write a tape with long blocks of all 1's in NRZI (800 BPI) mode. That works quite well for the purpose. Reading that on a drive out of alignment will work just as well as an alignment tape. Jon From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 01:38:09 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 23:38:09 -0700 Subject: DEC pin In-Reply-To: References: <49A67485-30AB-454E-9F9A-166A782509FC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <47C91433-E6AE-4559-A81C-9E26C55C0A58@gmail.com> I?ll blame it on Kyle and Fritz, I could not resist? https://curiousmarcs-store.creator-spring.com/listing/VAXinated Marc On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 17:50 Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682110 Timely! --FritzM. Thank you! It was a hard thing to search for. I kept getting all of these other results, for some odd reason... "Did you mean...?" No, actually I didn't! Kyle From organlists1 at sonic.net Wed Mar 31 02:22:23 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (Don R) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 00:22:23 -0700 Subject: DEC pin In-Reply-To: <47C91433-E6AE-4559-A81C-9E26C55C0A58@gmail.com> References: <47C91433-E6AE-4559-A81C-9E26C55C0A58@gmail.com> Message-ID: <15D122DD-8477-45A2-8644-CD15D339144F@sonic.net> Tsk tsk ;) Don Resor N6KAW Sent from someone's iPhone > On Mar 30, 2021, at 11:38 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > ?I?ll blame it on Kyle and Fritz, I could not resist? > > https://curiousmarcs-store.creator-spring.com/listing/VAXinated > > > > Marc > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 17:50 Fritz Mueller via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682110 > > > > Timely! > > > > --FritzM. > > > > > > Thank you! It was a hard thing to search for. I kept getting all of these > > other results, for some odd reason... "Did you mean...?" No, actually I > > didn't! > > > > Kyle > > > > From idinc at swcp.com Wed Mar 31 01:37:06 2021 From: idinc at swcp.com (idinc at swcp.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 00:37:06 MDT Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ Message-ID: hello all i am looking to purchase qty 2 DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ adapters. anybody have some that they can sell? also need a couple of mmj to mmj cables, 10' or longer would work. thanks tim timothy rutherford teor at nmia.com 505-550-5110 From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 31 08:40:09 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:40:09 -0400 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 31, 2021, at 2:37 AM, idinc--- via cctalk wrote: > > ... > also need a couple of mmj to mmj cables, 10' or longer would work. Tim, I think MMJ connectors are still available; L-Com comes to mind as a source. Or perhaps Digikey or similar distributors. That would let you make your own. Crimp dies might be a little harder, though an RJ-45 crimp tool might be able to do the job. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 09:28:53 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 15:28:53 +0100 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f9e01d7263a$2d69b520$883d1f60$@gmail.com> Ok, MMJ plugs still seem to be available in the UK, not sure about USA. https://americas.rsdelivers.com/productlist/search?query=mmj%20plug&tag=&fam ily=11381 also some on ebay.co.uk I don't think a RJ45 crimp works. There are MMJ crimps available from China on e-Bay.com If they are the same as mine they work, after a fashion..... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Koning via > cctalk > Sent: 31 March 2021 14:40 > To: idinc at swcp.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ > > > > > On Mar 31, 2021, at 2:37 AM, idinc--- via cctalk > wrote: > > > > ... > > also need a couple of mmj to mmj cables, 10' or longer would work. > > Tim, > > I think MMJ connectors are still available; L-Com comes to mind as a source. There are some on E-Bay but I can only see UK sellers. > Or perhaps Digikey or similar distributors. That would let you make your > own. Crimp dies might be a little harder, though an RJ-45 crimp tool might be > able to do the job. > > paul From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed Mar 31 09:47:18 2021 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:47:18 -0500 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87dd9e16-8c03-4836-f4f5-904111bc781b@thereinhardts.org> On 3/31/2021 1:37 AM, idinc--- via cctalk wrote: > hello all > > i am looking to purchase qty 2 DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ adapters. Stonewall Cables has been a supplier for a long time. Before getting a crimper I bought lots of cables from them. https://www.stonewallcable.com/oem-equivalent/dec https://www.stonewallcable.com/dec-h8575-a-eq And DEC cables/connectors in general: https://www.stonewallcable.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=dec+mmj Pacific Cable - I have no experience with them: http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=H8575-A There are a few actual H8575-A available on EBay https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2546172.m570.l1313&_nkw=DEC+H8571-A&_sacat=0 > anybody have some that they can sell? > > also need a couple of mmj to mmj cables, 10' or longer would work. DEC MMJ plugs are available from: Cables.Com: https://www.cables.com/dec-mmj-6p6c-modular-plug.html Pacific Cables: http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=MMJ A DEC MMJ Crimp tool is available from: IEC: https://iec.net/product/modular-crimp-tool-for-rj11-dec-mmj-connectors/ If you can find them there is a Paladin crimper that you can get a DEC MMJ die.? I have one of those, it works sell, but is apparently discontinued. Cables are available from: Stonewall Cables has been a supplier for a long time. Before getting a crimper I bought lots of cables from them. https://www.stonewallcable.com/oem-equivalent/dec Cable Depot:? http://www.cabledepot.com/05MCPhoneMMJ.html Pacific Cables: http://www.pacificcable.com/DEC-Cables-Digital-Equipment-Corporation-Cables.html > thanks > > tim > > timothy rutherford > teor at nmia.com > 505-550-5110 > > -- John H. Reinhardt From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Mar 31 11:30:55 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 17:30:55 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01RXBRQE0KII8X36NW@beyondthepale.ie> Hi Tim, You don't say where you are located and your phone number doesn't include a country code so I am guessing you are in North America. I have a decent MMJ crimper and some MMJ plugs. I don't have 20 foot of cable though. If you send me the required length of cable, plus a bit more length (or something else nice) to cover the cost of return postage from Ireland, I would be willing to make up the cables you are looking for and post them to you. I even have an MMJ cable tester box which sees very little use. If MMJ to DB25 cables would be more suitable for your purposes, I could do those instead, however if we somehow fail to communicate the correct cable specification, the cables would be no use for their intended purpose and no use for anything else either and my MMJ cable tester box would also be very sad that it didn't get used after getting it's hopes up :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. > hello all > > i am looking to purchase qty 2 DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ adapters. > > anybody have some that they can sell? > > also need a couple of mmj to mmj cables, 10' or longer would work. > > thanks > > tim > > timothy rutherford > teor at nmia.com > 505-550-5110 > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 31 12:57:42 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:57:42 -0400 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/31/21 9:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 31, 2021, at 2:37 AM, idinc--- via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> also need a couple of mmj to mmj cables, 10' or longer would work. > > Tim, > > I think MMJ connectors are still available; L-Com comes to mind as a source. Or perhaps Digikey or similar distributors. That would let you make your own. Crimp dies might be a little harder, though an RJ-45 crimp tool might be able to do the job. Crimpers for MMJ are as available as ever. Not cheap, but then, they never were. An RJ45 dies will not work on an MMJ plug. bill From pat at vax11.net Wed Mar 31 13:07:04 2021 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 14:07:04 -0400 Subject: DEC H8575-A DB25 to MMJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 1:57 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/31/21 9:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Mar 31, 2021, at 2:37 AM, idinc--- via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> also need a couple of mmj to mmj cables, 10' or longer would work. > > > > Tim, > > > > I think MMJ connectors are still available; L-Com comes to mind as a > source. Or perhaps Digikey or similar distributors. That would let you > make your own. Crimp dies might be a little harder, though an RJ-45 crimp > tool might be able to do the job. > > Crimpers for MMJ are as available as ever. Not cheap, but then, they > never were. An RJ45 dies will not work on an MMJ plug. > > bill > > This is where I got the connectors, and they worked fine for me: https://www.opentip.com/product.php?products_id=1576163 Pat From david4602 at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 12:20:33 2021 From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:20:33 -0400 Subject: DEC RX50 disks with mystery content In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, DEC enthusiasts - I've got some 5-1/4" disks here that purport to be from a DECmate (probably II) and may have data offloaded from a bigger system. But the disks don't have any recognizable trace of a filesystem on them; just vast swathes of data that looks like this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12EO4Lg1Uh7NvCUJksHQ2AUiK550OX7UJ/view?usp=sharing It seems to be a pattern of a near-zero byte followed by some other byte. It's like they're storing 12-bit words in 16 bits or something. Does anyone recognize this sort of thing, just eyeballing it? - David From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Mar 31 16:32:51 2021 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 16:32:51 -0500 Subject: DEC pin In-Reply-To: <47C91433-E6AE-4559-A81C-9E26C55C0A58@gmail.com> References: <49A67485-30AB-454E-9F9A-166A782509FC@fritzm.org> <47C91433-E6AE-4559-A81C-9E26C55C0A58@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 31, 2021, at 1:38 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > I?ll blame it on Kyle and Fritz, I could not resist? > > https://curiousmarcs-store.creator-spring.com/listing/VAXinated As a PDP-10 partisan I am anti-VAX. I feel it is my duty to make a big stink about this, but do not wish to expend list resources in doing so. Please pretend I made a big stink about it and be offended and/or pleased as you feel would be appropriate. From kl at 2k.ca Wed Mar 31 23:14:37 2021 From: kl at 2k.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 06:14:37 +0200 Subject: IBM cpu tear down Message-ID: <7873F26E-D2F6-4274-99A7-C62F15134C18@2k.ca> https://www.righto.com/2021/03/logic-chip-teardown-from-vintage-ibm.html Enjoy. From organlists1 at sonic.net Wed Mar 31 23:56:09 2021 From: organlists1 at sonic.net (D. Resor) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 21:56:09 -0700 Subject: IBM cpu tear down In-Reply-To: <7873F26E-D2F6-4274-99A7-C62F15134C18@2k.ca> References: <7873F26E-D2F6-4274-99A7-C62F15134C18@2k.ca> Message-ID: I thought I had seen this before... EEVblog teardown of a ES9000 processor. https://youtu.be/xQ3oJlt4GrI Don Resor N6KAW -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Kevin Lee via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 9:15 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IBM cpu tear down https://www.righto.com/2021/03/logic-chip-teardown-from-vintage-ibm.html Enjoy. From vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 16:02:51 2021 From: vincent.slyngstad at gmail.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 14:02:51 -0700 Subject: DEC RX50 disks with mystery content In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <041888ab-2079-5c90-e0f9-8adc64f39aa4@gmail.com> On 3/31/2021 10:20 AM, David Schmidt via cctech wrote: > Hello, DEC enthusiasts - > > I've got some 5-1/4" disks here that purport to be from a DECmate > (probably II) and may have data offloaded from a bigger system.? But the > disks don't have any recognizable trace of a filesystem on them; just > vast swathes of data that looks like this: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/12EO4Lg1Uh7NvCUJksHQ2AUiK550OX7UJ/view?usp=sharing > > > It seems to be a pattern of a near-zero byte followed by some other > byte.? It's like they're storing 12-bit words in 16 bits or something. > Does anyone recognize this sort of thing, just eyeballing it? IT does have a PDP-8ish look. I'd be able to do more if it were machine readable, rather than just a PNG image, or better yet if the whole floppy's content were available. Vince