From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 1 03:14:44 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:14:44 +0000 Subject: DEC part number system In-Reply-To: <20210101003826.3534B18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210101003826.3534B18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 01/01/2021 00:38, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > It looks like you already uploaded it to Manx: > > https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/standards/el-00012-00-0000.pdf Good ... at least I'm now not the only (known) source for that CD! Maybe this year will be the year I list all the docs I have and make sure that all the unique ones end up on bitsavers :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jan 1 08:07:34 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 15:07:34 +0100 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 07:43:12PM -0800, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: > Disclaimer: I don't speak for Google ... > The thread shows a lot of Google bashing. Insinuating that Google makes it > difficult so that people follow the path of least resistance is part of > that. I didn't insinuate it: I said it out loud. Whether it's an explicit decision by Google or just an emergent effect is moot. Google are clearly quite happy with this state of affairs otherwise they'd do something about it. [...] > It took me less than a minute of searching to find this: > https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new It is not exactly difficult to find forms to fill in at Google. They *love* their forms. All attempts at getting support are deflected by a request to fill in a form. Nothing useful happens upon filling in a Google support form, of course. An auto-ack at best, then tumbleweed. Franz Kafka could have written a whole shelf of novels about Google. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jan 1 07:43:41 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2021 13:43:41 +0000 (WET) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Hi Mike, Thanks for chiming in on this. > Disclaimer: I don't speak for Google ... > Large corporations (Google included) are basically a scaling problem, > especially when it comes to customer service. I think that's pretty > obvious, and stories about YouTube problems and account access are legion. > I don't have a solution that can be applied to the problems on this > thread. My purpose in posting was to point out that this probably isn't a > matter of market share or people forgetting not to be evil; it's a > technical problem. Getting the configs right is the first step. > Blacklists are also a problem, and clearly sometimes the filters being > applied are wrong. We try to find and fix these things as they are brought > to our attention. > The big problem is bringing it to Google's attention. > > It took me less than a minute of searching to find this: > https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new > > That's the form to contact the Gmail team for getting help with debugging > your mail being marked as spam/phishing attempts, you get SMTP temp-fails > or rejects, or other problems. (The search term was "problems sending > email to gmail accounts" - go to the first link, follow the workflow, and > assuming all of the preliminary answers to the questions are "I didn't do > anything wrong" then you'll get a link to that contact form.) > I spent hours over days looking for something like this (using Google searches) and I failed to find it. I always ended up in blind alleys that assumed I was a Google customer trying to get an email into my mailbox, not a correspondant of a Google customer trying to get an email out. My issue with Google and evil is that they provide no way that I can find to bring abuse of Google facilites (to send spam for example) to their attention so that the abuse can be stopped. For example, someone has been testing my mail server to see if it can be used to relay spam by forging emails as coming from various email addresses in my domain name and addressed to check212014 at gmail.com and attempting to feed these emails into my mail server (which doesn't accept them) from compromised ip addresses. This has happened nearly two hundred times over a period of five years now. I have made numerous attempts to bring this to the attention of Google so that they could put a stop to this check212014 mailbox being used for this abusive purpose yet I have failed. You seem to have the magic touch. Can you let me know how to bring this to Google's attention? (By the way, this doesn't tend to happen with hotmail.com addresses to pick one example. The reason it doesn't is because on the rare occasions when it does, reporting the issue to hotmail or whoever using the standard, easy to find abuse reporting mechanisms results in the problem being stopped and the spammer soon gets fed up having to set up new testing mailboxes every few days so they end up moving over to gmail.com instead where they can keep the same relay testing mailbox for at least 5 years.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Mike > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 08:47:48 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 14:47:48 -0000 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <0eee01d6e04d$12eb6a50$38c23ef0$@gmail.com> I believe that the BIG PROBLEM is the unthinking liveware that simply looks at Spam filtering effectiveness in terms of how much SPAM it prevents from being delivered, and thinks that if some real e-mail gets lost in the friendly fire the sender is to blame. Apart from in technical groups as this, not one ever worries about lost mail. Of course as a sender you can set up DKIM and SPF records, but then so can the spammers. So if you find e-mail to cctalk or cctech goes to your JUNK folder on gmail create a filter to stop it... ... it much less effort than trying to fix google.... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > via cctalk > Sent: 01 January 2021 13:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Emails going to spam folder in gmail > > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for chiming in on this. > > > Disclaimer: I don't speak for Google ... > > > Large corporations (Google included) are basically a scaling problem, > > especially when it comes to customer service. I think that's pretty > > obvious, and stories about YouTube problems and account access are > legion. > > I don't have a solution that can be applied to the problems on this > > thread. My purpose in posting was to point out that this probably > > isn't a matter of market share or people forgetting not to be evil; > > it's a technical problem. Getting the configs right is the first step. > > Blacklists are also a problem, and clearly sometimes the filters being > > applied are wrong. We try to find and fix these things as they are > > brought to our attention. > > > > The big problem is bringing it to Google's attention. > > > > > It took me less than a minute of searching to find this: > > https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new > > > > That's the form to contact the Gmail team for getting help with > > debugging your mail being marked as spam/phishing attempts, you get > > SMTP temp-fails or rejects, or other problems. (The search term was > > "problems sending email to gmail accounts" - go to the first link, > > follow the workflow, and assuming all of the preliminary answers to > > the questions are "I didn't do anything wrong" then you'll get a link > > to that contact form.) > > > > I spent hours over days looking for something like this (using Google > searches) and I failed to find it. I always ended up in blind alleys that > assumed I was a Google customer trying to get an email into my mailbox, not > a correspondant of a Google customer trying to get an email out. > > My issue with Google and evil is that they provide no way that I can find to > bring abuse of Google facilites (to send spam for example) to their attention > so that the abuse can be stopped. For example, someone has been testing > my mail server to see if it can be used to relay spam by forging emails as > coming from various email addresses in my domain name and addressed to > check212014 at gmail.com and attempting to feed these emails into my mail > server (which doesn't accept them) from compromised ip addresses. This > has happened nearly two hundred times over a period of five years now. I > have made numerous attempts to bring this to the attention of Google so > that they could put a stop to this check212014 mailbox being used for this > abusive purpose yet I have failed. You seem to have the magic touch. Can > you let me know how to bring this to Google's attention? > > (By the way, this doesn't tend to happen with hotmail.com addresses to pick > one example. The reason it doesn't is because on the rare occasions when it > does, reporting the issue to hotmail or whoever using the standard, easy to > find abuse reporting mechanisms results in the problem being stopped and > the spammer soon gets fed up having to set up new testing mailboxes every > few days so they end up moving over to gmail.com instead where they can > keep the same relay testing mailbox for at least 5 years.) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > Mike > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 1 11:12:09 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:12:09 -0800 Subject: Seeking: TMS32010 Assembly Language Programmer's Guide (1983) In-Reply-To: <098501d693fb$6c33b250$449b16f0$@gmail.com> References: <098501d693fb$6c33b250$449b16f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d9172c1-44e0-10a2-561a-59f8fa8c9566@bitsavers.org> On 9/26/20 4:51 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > I seek a copy (hard or electronic) of the "TMS32010 Assembly Language > Programmer's Guide" (1983). http://bitsavers.org/components/ti/TMS320xx/1983_TMS32010_Assembly_Language_Programmers_Guide.pdf I will be uploading a few other documents later today. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 12:24:11 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:24:11 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <0eee01d6e04d$12eb6a50$38c23ef0$@gmail.com> References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> <0eee01d6e04d$12eb6a50$38c23ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anyway, the issue with cctech/talk going to the spam folder as far as GMAIL is concerned is that spectrum.com does not encrypt the messages. I presume that's the mail server domain. Bill On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 9:47 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I believe that the BIG PROBLEM is the unthinking liveware that simply > looks at Spam filtering effectiveness in terms of how much SPAM it prevents > from being delivered, and thinks that if some real e-mail gets lost in the > friendly fire the sender is to blame. > Apart from in technical groups as this, not one ever worries about lost > mail. Of course as a sender you can set up DKIM and SPF records, but then > so can the spammers. > > So if you find e-mail to cctalk or cctech goes to your JUNK folder on > gmail create a filter to stop it... > ... it much less effort than trying to fix google.... > > Dave > G4UGM > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > > via cctalk > > Sent: 01 January 2021 13:44 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Emails going to spam folder in gmail > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > Thanks for chiming in on this. > > > > > Disclaimer: I don't speak for Google ... > > > > > Large corporations (Google included) are basically a scaling problem, > > > especially when it comes to customer service. I think that's pretty > > > obvious, and stories about YouTube problems and account access are > > legion. > > > I don't have a solution that can be applied to the problems on this > > > thread. My purpose in posting was to point out that this probably > > > isn't a matter of market share or people forgetting not to be evil; > > > it's a technical problem. Getting the configs right is the first step. > > > Blacklists are also a problem, and clearly sometimes the filters being > > > applied are wrong. We try to find and fix these things as they are > > > brought to our attention. > > > > > > > The big problem is bringing it to Google's attention. > > > > > > > > It took me less than a minute of searching to find this: > > > https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new > > > > > > That's the form to contact the Gmail team for getting help with > > > debugging your mail being marked as spam/phishing attempts, you get > > > SMTP temp-fails or rejects, or other problems. (The search term was > > > "problems sending email to gmail accounts" - go to the first link, > > > follow the workflow, and assuming all of the preliminary answers to > > > the questions are "I didn't do anything wrong" then you'll get a link > > > to that contact form.) > > > > > > > I spent hours over days looking for something like this (using Google > > searches) and I failed to find it. I always ended up in blind alleys > that > > assumed I was a Google customer trying to get an email into my mailbox, > not > > a correspondant of a Google customer trying to get an email out. > > > > My issue with Google and evil is that they provide no way that I can > find to > > bring abuse of Google facilites (to send spam for example) to their > attention > > so that the abuse can be stopped. For example, someone has been testing > > my mail server to see if it can be used to relay spam by forging emails > as > > coming from various email addresses in my domain name and addressed to > > check212014 at gmail.com and attempting to feed these emails into my mail > > server (which doesn't accept them) from compromised ip addresses. This > > has happened nearly two hundred times over a period of five years now. I > > have made numerous attempts to bring this to the attention of Google so > > that they could put a stop to this check212014 mailbox being used for > this > > abusive purpose yet I have failed. You seem to have the magic touch. > Can > > you let me know how to bring this to Google's attention? > > > > (By the way, this doesn't tend to happen with hotmail.com addresses to > pick > > one example. The reason it doesn't is because on the rare occasions > when it > > does, reporting the issue to hotmail or whoever using the standard, easy > to > > find abuse reporting mechanisms results in the problem being stopped and > > the spammer soon gets fed up having to set up new testing mailboxes every > > few days so they end up moving over to gmail.com instead where they can > > keep the same relay testing mailbox for at least 5 years.) > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jan 1 13:28:37 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 12:28:37 -0700 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 1/1/21 6:43 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > My issue with Google and evil is that they provide no way that I can > find to bring abuse of Google facilites (to send spam for example) > to their attention so that the abuse can be stopped. For example, > someone has been testing my mail server to see if it can be used to > relay spam by forging emails as coming from various email addresses in > my domain name and addressed to check212014 at gmail.com and attempting > to feed these emails into my mail server (which doesn't accept them) > from compromised ip addresses. This has happened nearly two hundred > times over a period of five years now. I have made numerous attempts > to bring this to the attention of Google so that they could put a > stop to this check212014 mailbox being used for this abusive purpose > yet I have failed. You seem to have the magic touch. Can you let > me know how to bring this to Google's attention? What you describe is a well known spam tactic and is not Gmail -> Google specific. It is hoping to abuse a questionable setting of allowing relay based on source domain, e.g. they are hoping that messages purportedly from your domain will be allowed to relay through your server(s). Aside: This is exactly why you should not allow relay based on the purported source domain. If the IPs perpetrating this attack are outside of Google's control, then there really is nothing that Google can do. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mbbrutman at brutman.com Fri Jan 1 14:14:44 2021 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 12:14:44 -0800 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hi Peter, About two minutes of searching lead to this: https://support.google.com/mail/contact/abuse. The keywords were "gmail report spam abuse", which led me to a page that was centered on organizations using Gmail as their backend and how to file a report against them that Google will handle. However, the top link of the page was "Need to report abuse? Please see our Reporting Abuse Incidents page.", which was a link to a general abuse form to fill out for any Google product including Gmail. I selected the product (Gmail), selected "Report an abusive Gmail account" and that led to "https://support.google.com/mail/contact/abuse", which has the form you want to use to report the owner of that Gmail account. There are enough fields on that form to make your specific abuse report, and there are plenty of free form entry areas so you can explain how this has been going on for years. I'm not sure if you have seen that form or tried this process before. Clearly what "check212014 at gmail.com" is wrong and is an abuse of the service. Please try it out. -Mike On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 6:15 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for chiming in on this. > > > Disclaimer: I don't speak for Google ... > > > Large corporations (Google included) are basically a scaling problem, > > especially when it comes to customer service. I think that's pretty > > obvious, and stories about YouTube problems and account access are > legion. > > I don't have a solution that can be applied to the problems on this > > thread. My purpose in posting was to point out that this probably isn't > a > > matter of market share or people forgetting not to be evil; it's a > > technical problem. Getting the configs right is the first step. > > Blacklists are also a problem, and clearly sometimes the filters being > > applied are wrong. We try to find and fix these things as they are > brought > > to our attention. > > > > The big problem is bringing it to Google's attention. > > > > > It took me less than a minute of searching to find this: > > https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new > > > > That's the form to contact the Gmail team for getting help with debugging > > your mail being marked as spam/phishing attempts, you get SMTP temp-fails > > or rejects, or other problems. (The search term was "problems sending > > email to gmail accounts" - go to the first link, follow the workflow, and > > assuming all of the preliminary answers to the questions are "I didn't do > > anything wrong" then you'll get a link to that contact form.) > > > > I spent hours over days looking for something like this (using Google > searches) and I failed to find it. I always ended up in blind alleys > that assumed I was a Google customer trying to get an email into my > mailbox, > not a correspondant of a Google customer trying to get an email out. > > My issue with Google and evil is that they provide no way that I can find > to bring abuse of Google facilites (to send spam for example) to their > attention so that the abuse can be stopped. For example, someone has been > testing my mail server to see if it can be used to relay spam by forging > emails as coming from various email addresses in my domain name and > addressed > to check212014 at gmail.com and attempting to feed these emails into my mail > server (which doesn't accept them) from compromised ip addresses. This has > happened nearly two hundred times over a period of five years now. I have > made numerous attempts to bring this to the attention of Google so that > they > could put a stop to this check212014 mailbox being used for this abusive > purpose yet I have failed. You seem to have the magic touch. Can you let > me > know how to bring this to Google's attention? > > (By the way, this doesn't tend to happen with hotmail.com addresses to > pick one > example. The reason it doesn't is because on the rare occasions when it > does, > reporting the issue to hotmail or whoever using the standard, easy to find > abuse reporting mechanisms results in the problem being stopped and the > spammer soon gets fed up having to set up new testing mailboxes every few > days so they end up moving over to gmail.com instead where they can keep > the > same relay testing mailbox for at least 5 years.) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > Mike > > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jan 1 15:24:09 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2021 21:24:09 +0000 (WET) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RTVNOEP6WU8X1582@beyondthepale.ie> > > My issue with Google and evil is that they provide no way that I can > > find to bring abuse of Google facilites (to send spam for example) > > to their attention so that the abuse can be stopped. For example, > > someone has been testing my mail server to see if it can be used to > > relay spam by forging emails as coming from various email addresses in > > my domain name and addressed to check212014 at gmail.com and attempting > > to feed these emails into my mail server (which doesn't accept them) > > from compromised ip addresses. This has happened nearly two hundred > > times over a period of five years now. I have made numerous attempts > > to bring this to the attention of Google so that they could put a > > stop to this check212014 mailbox being used for this abusive purpose > > yet I have failed. You seem to have the magic touch. Can you let > > me know how to bring this to Google's attention? > > What you describe is a well known spam tactic and is not Gmail -> Google > specific. It is hoping to abuse a questionable setting of allowing > relay based on source domain, e.g. they are hoping that messages > purportedly from your domain will be allowed to relay through your > server(s). > You misunderstand. What is Gmail / Google specific about it is that this is going on for nearly 5 years using the same recipient mailbox because it is so far impossible to let Google know about it so that Google can can delete the mailbox being used to receive the results of the relay testing which would force the spammer create a new receiving mailbox nearly every time they test. Similar probing using receiving mailboxes on other major email providers systems does not last last more than a day or two before the mailboxes get deleted after mail admins reported them. > > Aside: This is exactly why you should not allow relay based on the > purported source domain. > Anyone who tries to do that will rapidly find out that it does not work and they certainly won't have to wait 5 years to find it out. > > If the IPs perpetrating this attack are outside of Google's control, > then there really is nothing that Google can do. > There most certainly is something that Google can do. They can cancel the mailbox that is being used to receive the results of the relay testing, provided it is possible to let Google know that the mailbox is being abused that is. I just don't have that difficulty with other major email providers. Mike reports in another reply that he has unearthed a possible mechanism to let Google know what is happening so maybe the problem has is becoming soluble now. It will be interesting to see if the mechanism he found works. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jan 1 17:24:33 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:24:33 -0700 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTVNOEP6WU8X1582@beyondthepale.ie> References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> <01RTVNOEP6WU8X1582@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <63a45c5b-2348-5abe-fa33-8223959a92e4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/21 2:24 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > You misunderstand. What is Gmail / Google specific about it is > that this is going on for nearly 5 years using the same recipient > mailbox because it is so far impossible to let Google know about it > so that Google can can delete the mailbox being used to receive the > results of the relay testing which would force the spammer create a > new receiving mailbox nearly every time they test. Does "Joe Job" mean anything to you? > Similar probing using receiving mailboxes on other major email > providers systems does not last last more than a day or two before > the mailboxes get deleted after mail admins reported them. Does "Whack-a-Mole" mean anything to you? > Anyone who tries to do that will rapidly find out that it does not > work and they certainly won't have to wait 5 years to find it out. If Google is not the /source/ of the spam, there is approximately nothing that they can or will do. Especially if their mailbox user is not complaining. After all, unless you can prove that their mailbox user is doing something against terms of service while using Google's infrastructure, they have no grounds to do anything. If 100 different companies send me junk (snail) mail that I then burn as a source of heat during the winter, does that mean that I'm causing the problem? > There most certainly is something that Google can do. They can > cancel the mailbox that is being used to receive the results of the > relay testing, provided it is possible to let Google know that the > mailbox is being abused that is. I just don't have that difficulty > with other major email providers. What is the mailbox doing that is against Google's terms of service? Especially if the email originates completely outside of Google's systems. > Mike reports in another reply that he has unearthed a possible > mechanism to let Google know what is happening so maybe the problem > has is becoming soluble now. It will be interesting to see if the > mechanism he found works. I suggest that you not hold your breath. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jan 1 17:27:49 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:27:49 -0700 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <63a45c5b-2348-5abe-fa33-8223959a92e4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> <01RTVNOEP6WU8X1582@beyondthepale.ie> <63a45c5b-2348-5abe-fa33-8223959a92e4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <78bbfa31-2121-3950-7c30-e32f5864156a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/1/21 4:24 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does "Joe Job" mean anything to you? There is also the possibility that the bounce recipient is a perfectly legitimate user that is the victim of someone else purposely doing things to cause bounces (and other crap) to be sent to them. If anything, Google is likely to help defend such a user to filter out such junk while allowing legitimate email through. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jan 1 16:28:21 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2021 22:28:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: References: <202101010223.1012ND8A16318624@floodgap.com> <01RTV85P4R928ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RTVS0EMMW68ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> > Hi Peter, > > About two minutes of searching lead to this: > https://support.google.com/mail/contact/abuse. The keywords were "gmail > report spam abuse", which led me to a page that was centered on > organizations using Gmail as their backend and how to file a report against > them that Google will handle. However, the top link of the page was "Need > to report abuse? Please see our Reporting Abuse Incidents page.", which was > a link to a general abuse form to fill out for any Google product including > Gmail. > > I selected the product (Gmail), selected "Report an abusive Gmail account" > and that led to "https://support.google.com/mail/contact/abuse", which has > the form you want to use to report the owner of that Gmail account. There > are enough fields on that form to make your specific abuse report, and > there are plenty of free form entry areas so you can explain how this has > been going on for years. > > I'm not sure if you have seen that form or tried this process before. > Clearly what "check212014 at gmail.com" is wrong and is an abuse of the > service. Please try it out. > Hi Mike, I appreciate the trouble you are going to here. I am prepared to accept your suggestion in good faith. However, I am not a big fan of filling in webforms to report abuse. It is a slow and tedious manual process to have to engage with in comparison to the highly automated abuse I am attempting to deal with. It is difficult to create tools to make it easier for me and less error prone for me to fill in webforms plus I don't easily get to keep a copy of what I have put in the form for filing with the abuse reports I make to other major email providers. So, when I see further abuse of a gmail.com account, I find it difficult to see whether I reported this particular one previously or not and when. I resent having to jump through hoops to help Google do what they should be doing anyway. Many other mail providers are grateful for abuse reports received by whatever means is most convenient to the reporter of the abuse. They regard encouraging abuse reports as a way of minimising the abuse they have to deal with because their abusive customers tend to up sticks and go to another provider when they are repeatedly stopped in their tracks. I appreciate that you are the messenger here and I am trying not to shoot you. It's just that you represent the only feedback most of us have ever got from Google. Anway, I went to https://support.google.com/mail/contact/abuse as you suggested. This form is clearly designed to report spam sent from a gmail.com account, not a gmail.com account being used to receive the results of relay testing. The form has mandatory fields which require me to provide for example "Email headers of the questionable message". I don't have any headers for any of the messages concerned because my mail server rejects every one of them before the sender gets a chance to send headers as per best practice for dealing with unauthorised relay attempts. Even if I had headers, they would not be from an email sent by a gmail.com account. I am betting that when this form finally gets to a real person in Google, it will go straight in the bin because I wasn't able to provide email headers that came from an email sent from a gmail.com account. Nevertheless, I will try it anyway, just to see what happens. By the way, I looked at the other link you suggested earlier for getting mail through to Google: https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new It turns out I had come across this link before some time ago but had forgotten about it. I had formed the impression that this particular one was aimed at commercial mailing list operators who are having difficulty getting their (legitimate) mailshots through to gmail.com customers of theirs, advertising that people have signed up for by ticking the "please send me information about your product" box or the "please put me on your monthly newsletter" box etc. It does not appear it is designed to help out someone who is trying to get an email through to their friend who has a gmail.com account. I also took a look at https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126 which you suggested yesterday. This is definately aimed at well funded commercial senders of email that are sending out thousands of mailshots at a time, not the person in the street who is trying to communicate with a friend or someone with a shared interest. Just look at the original title of the page! It suggests I send messages that have different purposes from different ip addresses for heavens sake. (I can do this but do you think I am going to?) I apologise to my friends on cctalk for going on about this at such length and I don't propose to waste any more of the mailing lists time on this. (Unless everyone is actually sitting on the edge of their seats waiting to know what happens next that is...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. > On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 6:15 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > Thanks for chiming in on this. > > > > > Disclaimer: I don't speak for Google ... > > > > > Large corporations (Google included) are basically a scaling problem, > > > especially when it comes to customer service. I think that's pretty > > > obvious, and stories about YouTube problems and account access are > > legion. > > > I don't have a solution that can be applied to the problems on this > > > thread. My purpose in posting was to point out that this probably isn't > > a > > > matter of market share or people forgetting not to be evil; it's a > > > technical problem. Getting the configs right is the first step. > > > Blacklists are also a problem, and clearly sometimes the filters being > > > applied are wrong. We try to find and fix these things as they are > > brought > > > to our attention. > > > > > > > The big problem is bringing it to Google's attention. > > > > > > > > It took me less than a minute of searching to find this: > > > https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new > > > > > > That's the form to contact the Gmail team for getting help with debugging > > > your mail being marked as spam/phishing attempts, you get SMTP temp-fails > > > or rejects, or other problems. (The search term was "problems sending > > > email to gmail accounts" - go to the first link, follow the workflow, and > > > assuming all of the preliminary answers to the questions are "I didn't do > > > anything wrong" then you'll get a link to that contact form.) > > > > > > > I spent hours over days looking for something like this (using Google > > searches) and I failed to find it. I always ended up in blind alleys > > that assumed I was a Google customer trying to get an email into my > > mailbox, > > not a correspondant of a Google customer trying to get an email out. > > > > My issue with Google and evil is that they provide no way that I can find > > to bring abuse of Google facilites (to send spam for example) to their > > attention so that the abuse can be stopped. For example, someone has been > > testing my mail server to see if it can be used to relay spam by forging > > emails as coming from various email addresses in my domain name and > > addressed > > to check212014 at gmail.com and attempting to feed these emails into my mail > > server (which doesn't accept them) from compromised ip addresses. This has > > happened nearly two hundred times over a period of five years now. I have > > made numerous attempts to bring this to the attention of Google so that > > they > > could put a stop to this check212014 mailbox being used for this abusive > > purpose yet I have failed. You seem to have the magic touch. Can you let > > me > > know how to bring this to Google's attention? > > > > (By the way, this doesn't tend to happen with hotmail.com addresses to > > pick one > > example. The reason it doesn't is because on the rare occasions when it > > does, > > reporting the issue to hotmail or whoever using the standard, easy to find > > abuse reporting mechanisms results in the problem being stopped and the > > spammer soon gets fed up having to set up new testing mailboxes every few > > days so they end up moving over to gmail.com instead where they can keep > > the > > same relay testing mailbox for at least 5 years.) > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 23:03:47 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 21:03:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 backplane wire list Message-ID: Hey all -- Discovered a broken wirewrap wire on the 11/70 I'm slowly working on, it's on the last slot (44), and runs from BD2 to ??. White wire, part of a white/black twisted pair. I've been looking but haven't found a wire list for the backplane -- anyone have any leads, or, alternately, does anyone have ready access to an 11/70 backplane to trace where the wire from BD2 on slot 44 goes to? (Fortunately it looks like there's just the one wire on that pin, though there might be one "below" it on the pin that I can't quite see, rather cramped in there.) Thanks as always, Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 00:06:06 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 23:06:06 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/70 backplane wire list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:04 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Discovered a broken wirewrap wire on the 11/70 I'm slowly working on, it's > on the last slot (44), and runs from BD2 to ??. White wire, part of a > white/black twisted pair. I've been looking but haven't found a wire list > for the backplane > There would be two different 11/70 backplane wirelists, depending on whether your CPU is a KB11-B or a KB11-C. Unfortunately I don't have either wirelist. If your 11/70 has an M8133 and an M8138, it's a KB11-B. If it has an MB8123 and MB8138-YA, it's a KB11-C. You're undoubtedly aware that the A/B section of slot 44 is for the Unibus cable or terminator, so BD2 is signal BR4 L. It should probably go to the BR4 L pin of the slot 44 SPC, which would be pin DH2, which would be bussed through DH2 of the other SPC slots (40-43). RH70 Massbus controllers normally use BR5 L, but I suspect that the BR4 L line would be wired to their slots as well. I don't have an RH70 print set, so I don't know the details. From the RH70s (or slot 40, if BR4 L doesn't go to the RH70s), I would expect it to go to the Trap & Msc Control board (TMCB) in slot 11, pin FP1. Best regards, Eric From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 00:33:35 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 22:33:35 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 backplane wire list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:06 PM Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:04 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Discovered a broken wirewrap wire on the 11/70 I'm slowly working on, it's >> on the last slot (44), and runs from BD2 to ??. White wire, part of a >> white/black twisted pair. I've been looking but haven't found a wire list >> for the backplane >> > > There would be two different 11/70 backplane wirelists, depending on > whether your CPU is a KB11-B or a KB11-C. Unfortunately I don't have either > wirelist. > > If your 11/70 has an M8133 and an M8138, it's a KB11-B. > If it has an MB8123 and MB8138-YA, it's a KB11-C. > I have a KB11-C here. > You're undoubtedly aware that the A/B section of slot 44 is for the Unibus > cable or terminator, so BD2 is signal BR4 L. It should probably go to the > BR4 L pin of the slot 44 SPC, which would be pin DH2, which would be bussed > through DH2 of the other SPC slots (40-43). > You know, that really should have occurred to me. Convenient that the break happened on such a convenient pin! Thanks for the tip, I'll double-check everything tomorrow and see if I can find my wire-wrap tool... - Josh > > RH70 Massbus controllers normally use BR5 L, but I suspect that the BR4 L > line would be wired to their slots as well. I don't have an RH70 print set, > so I don't know the details. From the RH70s (or slot 40, if BR4 L doesn't > go to the RH70s), I would expect it to go to the Trap & Msc Control board > (TMCB) in slot 11, pin FP1. > > Best regards, > Eric > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 02:59:21 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 09:59:21 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. Message-ID: I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. It spins up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately spins down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your thoughts? Are the heads sticking? Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) /Mattis From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 2 03:42:32 2021 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 09:42:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: terminals-wiki? References: <1167595866.4863872.1609580552585.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1167595866.4863872.1609580552585@mail.yahoo.com> The terminals wiki (https://terminals-wiki.org) seems to have been down for several months.? I hope the maintainer is OK. Does anyone know if this site is gone for good??? Is there a mirror anywhere?? The wayback machine has a few pages, but mostly serves to capture the look&feel. Dave From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 04:38:53 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 05:38:53 -0500 Subject: Seeking: TMS32010 Assembly Language Programmer's Guide (1983) In-Reply-To: <2d9172c1-44e0-10a2-561a-59f8fa8c9566@bitsavers.org> References: <098501d693fb$6c33b250$449b16f0$@gmail.com> <2d9172c1-44e0-10a2-561a-59f8fa8c9566@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <15eb01d6e0f3$77f5cac0$67e16040$@gmail.com> Al; Thank you. For all four! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 01, 2021 12:12 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Seeking: TMS32010 Assembly Language Programmer's Guide (1983) On 9/26/20 4:51 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > I seek a copy (hard or electronic) of the "TMS32010 Assembly Language > Programmer's Guide" (1983). http://bitsavers.org/components/ti/TMS320xx/1983_TMS32010_Assembly_Language_Programmers_Guide.pdf I will be uploading a few other documents later today. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 2 04:48:26 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 10:48:26 -0000 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03e601d6e0f4$d0853080$718f9180$@ntlworld.com> When that has happened to MFM disks of mine it has been because for one reason or another the heads have not moved and found track 0. Why they aren't moving could be more than one reason. They could be stuck, or there could be some other problem that is preventing them getting the power needed to move. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via > cctalk > Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. It spins > up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately spins > down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your thoughts? > Are the heads sticking? > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > /Mattis From tingox at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 05:54:11 2021 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 12:54:11 +0100 Subject: terminals-wiki? In-Reply-To: <1167595866.4863872.1609580552585@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1167595866.4863872.1609580552585.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1167595866.4863872.1609580552585@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 10:42 AM Dave via cctalk wrote: > > The terminals wiki (https://terminals-wiki.org) seems to have been down for several months. I hope the maintainer is OK. > > Does anyone know if this site is gone for good? Is there a mirror anywhere? The wayback machine has a few pages, but mostly serves to capture the look&feel. > Dave AFAIK, Richard hasn't had time to fix it yet, that's the last answer he gave, a few months back. (The site still says "maintenance" here) I don't know about any mirrors. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 2 07:02:56 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 08:02:56 -0500 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <521c6757-4d42-1037-43f4-f4c4cbbf2039@alembic.crystel.com> I am dealing with this a *lot* with all these disks from Bob's basement. The problems seem to be three categories: 1) Disk does not spin up at all. So far it's all been sticking motors, they don't have a lot of start up torque at all. For the first 4 disks (ST412, Quantum 30mb, and two ST506) I was able to remove the bottom board, turn the disks manually (clockwise) while applying power to spin them up. The motor will start to turn, then as you continue to spin it with your finger it will go faster as the oils distribute themselves. Note: I need to figure out how/if I can oil drive motor bearings without opening them or ruining the seal. 2) Stepper/coil motors are stuck. This is easier to deal with on the ST412,Quantum,ST506 drives as there is literally an arm on the side you can move. These can be oiled externally if needed. On the RD53, the heads were stuck internally, what I did was unlock the heads manually (open bottom panel and turn the locking cam) while tapping the drive on the side with the palm of my hand. This could work, but hit it too hard or sharp and you will crash the heads. Maybe I could use the rubber hammer. 3) Controller board caught fire and exploded. Yes, this burned my rug with flying debris, it can happen. Have a fire extinguisher handy. I am thinking of building a small dust free space to open the tops of other drives. Not sure if this is an immediate death sentence, a lot of these drives have filters inside that could probably handle one or two openings worth of dust, but man that is an edge case. In the old days I built a tent over my RM03 disk and counted on its absolute air filter, but I don't think I can do that with RL02's as the fan for the absolute air is also the disk spindle motor.... Then again the Diablo 44 is always running the fan but I haven't found a source of air filters for that yet (unlike the RL02). Hm. CZ On 1/2/2021 3:59 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. It > spins up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately > spins down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your thoughts? > Are the heads sticking? > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > /Mattis > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 07:05:11 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 14:05:11 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: <03e601d6e0f4$d0853080$718f9180$@ntlworld.com> References: <03e601d6e0f4$d0853080$718f9180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 11:48 skrev Rob Jarratt : > When that has happened to MFM disks of mine it has been because for one > reason or another the heads have not moved and found track 0. Why they > aren't moving could be more than one reason. They could be stuck, or there > could be some other problem that is preventing them getting the power > needed to move. > Did you solve the problem? How? I have heard that Micropolis 1325 is prone to have a problem with a rubber bumper that sticks to the head mechanism. Maybe it is the same for this Micropois drive? What resolutions are there to this type of problem? /Mattis > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis Lind > via > > cctalk > > Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. > > > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. > It spins > > up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately > spins > > down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would > > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your > thoughts? > > Are the heads sticking? > > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to > > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > > > /Mattis > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 07:09:02 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 14:09:02 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: <521c6757-4d42-1037-43f4-f4c4cbbf2039@alembic.crystel.com> References: <521c6757-4d42-1037-43f4-f4c4cbbf2039@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 14:03 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > I am dealing with this a *lot* with all these disks from Bob's basement. > The problems seem to be three categories: > > 1) Disk does not spin up at all. So far it's all been sticking motors, > they don't have a lot of start up torque at all. For the first 4 disks > (ST412, Quantum 30mb, and two ST506) I was able to remove the bottom > board, turn the disks manually (clockwise) while applying power to spin > them up. The motor will start to turn, then as you continue to spin it > with your finger it will go faster as the oils distribute themselves. > > Note: I need to figure out how/if I can oil drive motor bearings without > opening them or ruining the seal. > > 2) Stepper/coil motors are stuck. This is easier to deal with on the > ST412,Quantum,ST506 drives as there is literally an arm on the side you > can move. These can be oiled externally if needed. > > On the RD53, the heads were stuck internally, what I did was unlock the > heads manually (open bottom panel and turn the locking cam) while > tapping the drive on the side with the palm of my hand. This could work, > but hit it too hard or sharp and you will crash the heads. Maybe I could > use the rubber hammer. > Thanks, I will take the drive apart a bit and see if I can find something that can be unlocked. > 3) Controller board caught fire and exploded. Yes, this burned my rug > with flying debris, it can happen. Have a fire extinguisher handy. > > I am thinking of building a small dust free space to open the tops of > other drives. Not sure if this is an immediate death sentence, a lot of > these drives have filters inside that could probably handle one or two > openings worth of dust, but man that is an edge case. In the old days I > built a tent over my RM03 disk and counted on its absolute air filter, > but I don't think I can do that with RL02's as the fan for the absolute > air is also the disk spindle motor.... > > Then again the Diablo 44 is always running the fan but I haven't found a > source of air filters for that yet (unlike the RL02). > Actually I am not counting on this drive to live forever. I just want to make an image of it and then probably replace it with something more reliable. Like an mfm emulator. /Mattis > > > Hm. > > CZ > > > > On 1/2/2021 3:59 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. > > > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. > It > > spins up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it > immediately > > spins down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads > would > > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your > thoughts? > > Are the heads sticking? > > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to > > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > > > /Mattis > > > From tingox at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 07:45:47 2021 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 14:45:47 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: <521c6757-4d42-1037-43f4-f4c4cbbf2039@alembic.crystel.com> References: <521c6757-4d42-1037-43f4-f4c4cbbf2039@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 2:03 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > I am dealing with this a *lot* with all these disks from Bob's basement. > The problems seem to be three categories: > > 1) Disk does not spin up at all. So far it's all been sticking motors, > they don't have a lot of start up torque at all. For the first 4 disks > (ST412, Quantum 30mb, and two ST506) I was able to remove the bottom > board, turn the disks manually (clockwise) while applying power to spin > them up. The motor will start to turn, then as you continue to spin it > with your finger it will go faster as the oils distribute themselves. > Sometimes, the "stuck drive" problem can be overcome by a gentle "whack" with the handle of a screwdriver or other non-metallic object to the side of the hard drive, (hopefully) in the direction of spin of the hard drive. I have done this a few times on 5.25 inch hard drives at least. With success, Procedure: with the drive powered up, hold it, and gently give it a whack on the side, in the direction you think it should spin. If it doesn't work after one or two tries, try something else. Caveat: this might affect your drive negatively. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 08:20:51 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 15:20:51 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: <521c6757-4d42-1037-43f4-f4c4cbbf2039@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Worked a bit more with this drive. Removed the PCB and found the combined brake and head lock solenoid. It operated freely. As I couldn't find any way of observing the head positioning mechanism from the outside I opened the lid of the drive. With the solenoid in the unlocked position it was possible to move the heads so they were not stuck at least. Reassembled the drive and now it spun up and it sounded like it was moving the head back and forth. It continued to do so for a minute and then spun down. I managed to repeat this two times and then it reverted to the old behaviour of not spinning up at all. I am not sure what this indicates. Perhaps it fails to servo information? It doesn't look like a mechanical problem but I am not sure. Unfortunately I don't have any other Micropolis 1303 drive around so I cannot replace any electronics to see if it works any better. It seems to be quite different from the Micropolis drives that where schematic are available on bitsavers so fault tracing the circuitry will be hard. I will probably need to consider this drive as toast even though it would have been really interesting to know more of what PERQ system there was on it, unless someone comes up with some bright idea on how to recover the data! /Mattis From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 2 08:25:24 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 09:25:24 -0500 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: <03e601d6e0f4$d0853080$718f9180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7a6794d1-035c-55a5-88e3-eec0ffe4a296@alembic.crystel.com> > I have heard that Micropolis 1325 is prone to have a problem with a rubber > bumper that sticks to the head mechanism. Maybe it is the same for this > Micropois drive? What resolutions are there to this type of problem? Yep, and I'm sure a lot of drives from this era have the same issue. Or the grease in the bearings has separated out. Stuff like that. In the inside of the HDA the oil is probably still there, just needs to re-mix with the clay and binders that make grease grease. On the outside bearings the oil has probably been evaporated and needs to be replaced (new oil will mix with grease and work). On a high performance Porsche, the exact type of grease for a wheel bearing is critical and mixing of grease and oil is bad because it's 400+hp behind all that. A hard drive is probably a lot more forgiving but too much oil could wash out the clay which means the oil won't stick in the bearing. The big problem is torque: Original coil type head assemblies had a LOT of torque. Modern motors and the like have a lot less starting torque because it's not normally needed. But on an old disk you don't have enough torque to overcome the sticky pad or to mix the grease/oil and it's stuck. One thing I have been concerned about is if the heads have stuck to the platter. If that happens, then turning the spindle will probably rip the heads off. Not sure how to address this. CZ > > /Mattis > > >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis Lind >> via >>> cctalk >>> Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. >>> >>> I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. >>> >>> First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. >> It spins >>> up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately >> spins >>> down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would >>> recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. >>> >>> I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your >> thoughts? >>> Are the heads sticking? >>> Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to >>> speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) >>> >>> /Mattis >> >> From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 2 08:28:28 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 14:28:28 -0000 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: <03e601d6e0f4$d0853080$718f9180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <040d01d6e113$8d0ac5d0$a7205170$@ntlworld.com> My only solution has been to open up the HDD itself and attempt to clean up the goo. Or, in some cases put a sliver of paper between the rubber bumper and the head assembly to stop it sticking. I don?t have a clean room and I know this is not advised, but it has worked for me. Regards Rob From: Mattis Lind Sent: 02 January 2021 13:05 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 11:48 skrev Rob Jarratt >: When that has happened to MFM disks of mine it has been because for one reason or another the heads have not moved and found track 0. Why they aren't moving could be more than one reason. They could be stuck, or there could be some other problem that is preventing them getting the power needed to move. Did you solve the problem? How? I have heard that Micropolis 1325 is prone to have a problem with a rubber bumper that sticks to the head mechanism. Maybe it is the same for this Micropois drive? What resolutions are there to this type of problem? /Mattis Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk > On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via > cctalk > Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. It spins > up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately spins > down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your thoughts? > Are the heads sticking? > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > /Mattis From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 2 08:29:16 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 09:29:16 -0500 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: <521c6757-4d42-1037-43f4-f4c4cbbf2039@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <9eeb4973-47b4-15bb-bb0b-8d4582c5fe56@alembic.crystel.com> Well, you could always send it to OnTrak. I remember when they recovered 99.9% of all the data on a hard crashed Maxtor 3380 disk. On Thanksgiving weekend. So it depends on how much you want the data. :-) If I get better at this whole thing you could send it over and I'll see what I can get. Meantime, anyone know how to convert one of Dave G's disk images on the MFM formatter to a format that can be read by SIMH? I have been working a lot with this thing, and would like to see if any of the data is really there. CZ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 2 11:52:37 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 12:52:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: MM11-F manual/prints available Message-ID: <20210102175237.7CC4418C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I finally got around to completing the processing of the scanned images of the pages of the MM11-F manual and engineering drawings. A PDF is available here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/dload/DEC-11-HMFA-D_MM11-F_Manual.pdf http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/dload/DEC-11-HMFA-D_MM11-F_Drawings.pdf For those who object to PDF/A, here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/dload/MM11-F_Manual.tar http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/dload/MM11-F_Drawings.tar are TARs of the original TIFFs. The images aren't that great, I see; the original paper copies aren't too hot, IIRC. If anyone actually has a use for these (does anyone out there _actually have_ an MM11-F?), and there's a problem, let me know, and once I get my scanner running again, I can try and get better ones. I thought we were missing the MM11-E manual, so since the two are so similar (most of the boards are the same) I thought the MM11-F's would mostly fill the gap, but it appears it's there, prepended to the MM11-E prints. One thing this set has which might be useful is the backplane wirelist (the MM11-E's seems to be missing); given the commonality of most of the boards from the MM11-E to the MM11-F, they're probably very similar. Noel From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Jan 2 11:56:15 2021 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 12:56:15 -0500 Subject: dp8340n IBM 3270 protocol transmitter encoder References: <000001d6e130$91ca6a90$b55f3fb0$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000001d6e130$91ca6a90$b55f3fb0$@verizon.net> Hi, In cleaning up my lab and stores, I have discovered that I have a tube of 10 of these chips. I'm not quite sure what they are for or were used in (or even where I got them). Anyway, if they are, in fact, for managing 3270 mainframe terminal traffic, they're probably not of much use to me. I've also noticed that I'm getting very low in vintage 4000 series CMOS chips. Anybody want to trade? Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From pete at pski.net Sat Jan 2 12:11:04 2021 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 13:11:04 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Trash Talk Live is Tonight at 9pm EST Message-ID: <20D4EF1C-4930-4F3F-AB74-70E5FEA2FBBD@pski.net> Come join us on Zoom tonight at 9pm EST for our annual end of year show as we engage in a TRS-80 community retrospective of 2020 and talk about where we want to see the community go in 2021. Email for Zoom details: trs80trashtalk at gmail.com Or you can watch on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXkGugvdCkpkMDylVQb9gfg But, it?s much more fun interacting on Zoom, so join us! You don?t have to be a TRS-80 enthusiast to join. Later, Pete From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 2 12:34:35 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 13:34:35 -0500 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210102183435.GA1253701@hugin3> This is my info on RD53 sticking heads. Your symtoms match what I have seen with this drive. If the heads are stuck to the rubber bumper the drive will spin back down when it finds the heads won't move. It will also spin down if it can't switch from the coarse speed control loop to using the head servo signal. There is a narrow band where the heads are parked with the proper signal. When the rubber has deteriorated the heads are no longer over it. Adding shims can fix that. I used a tent with RK05 filter but others have opened drives in reasonably clean locations sucessfully. Best to keep the pets away. http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/rd53.shtml Shim picture. http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/pics/lock.shtml?small On Sat, Jan 02, 2021 at 02:05:11PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 11:48 skrev Rob Jarratt >: > > > When that has happened to MFM disks of mine it has been because for one > > reason or another the heads have not moved and found track 0. Why they > > aren't moving could be more than one reason. They could be stuck, or there > > could be some other problem that is preventing them getting the power > > needed to move. > > > > Did you solve the problem? How? > > I have heard that Micropolis 1325 is prone to have a problem with a rubber > bumper that sticks to the head mechanism. Maybe it is the same for this > Micropois drive? What resolutions are there to this type of problem? > > /Mattis > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis Lind > > via > > > cctalk > > > Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > > > > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with now. > > > > > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis 1303. > > It spins > > > up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately > > spins > > > down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would > > > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > > > > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your > > thoughts? > > > Are the heads sticking? > > > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly up to > > > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > ------------------------------ From doc at vaxen.net Sat Jan 2 12:38:24 2021 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 12:38:24 -0600 Subject: Winsystems SAT-V40 Message-ID: I know this is a long shot, but I'm asking anyhow. I'm looking for the Ops Manual for a Winsystems single-board system. Model: SAT-V40 P/N: 400-0186-000 The SAT-V41 model is essentially the same board, so I'd settle for docs for that. There are references (from 2012) to SAT-V41.PDF, so I know it at least *did* exist in digital form. If anyone in the US has the paper manual I would happily scan it, and pay postage both ways. Thanks! Doc From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 2 12:47:56 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 13:47:56 -0500 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: <9eeb4973-47b4-15bb-bb0b-8d4582c5fe56@alembic.crystel.com> References: <9eeb4973-47b4-15bb-bb0b-8d4582c5fe56@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20210102184756.GB1253701@hugin3> On Sat, Jan 02, 2021 at 09:29:16AM -0500, Chris Zach wrote: > Meantime, anyone know how to convert one of Dave G's disk images on the MFM > formatter to a format that can be read by SIMH? I have been working a lot > with this thing, and would like to see if any of the data is really there. > The extracted data file will work if the controller isn't too smart so the OS view of the disk doesn't match the actual disk format. This seems to be the case for many non DEC systems. DEC liked smart controllers where the disk has extra data the controller used for storing info it needs and doing bad block remapping etc. SIMH doesn't deal with the disk level format so this information needs to be removed and bad block mapping handled. As far as I know nobody has taken the time to figure out how to do this. The only way I know currently for certain DEC controllers is to create an emulator file and use a real machine. My code will handle bad block remapping for some simple sector/track remapping that is indicated in the sector header but not for complex stuff DEC did. It does put the output data in logical sector order. From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 18:11:02 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 01:11:02 +0100 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE Message-ID: This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of the time. Also, they were terminal-based things and even back then I was interested in boxes with graphics. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 19:44:20 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 20:44:20 -0500 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 2, 2021, 7:11 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. > > > https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer > > I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as > well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and > IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of > the time. > > Also, they were terminal-based things and even back then I was > interested in boxes with graphics. :-) > There is a SAGE II at Kennett Classic. When I give tours I like to compare and contrast the SAGE with the IBM PC, Motorola 68000 vs Intel 8086. If anyone is in the Philadelphia area stop by and we can fire them up. Pascal. Bill > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 2 20:08:52 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 21:08:52 -0500 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> For one exciting moment there I thought that you were talking about the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment - which a friend of mine was a tech on in North Bay, ON, part of the DEW line! I was getting ready to up stakes and hop off to Philadelphia! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-02 8:44 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 2, 2021, 7:11 PM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > >> This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. >> >> >> https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer >> >> I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as >> well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and >> IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of >> the time. >> >> Also, they were terminal-based things and even back then I was >> interested in boxes with graphics. :-) >> > There is a SAGE II at Kennett Classic. When I give tours I like to compare > and contrast the SAGE with the IBM PC, Motorola 68000 vs Intel 8086. > > If anyone is in the Philadelphia area stop by and we can fire them up. > Pascal. > > Bill > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 2 20:23:49 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 18:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> References: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jan 2021, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > For one exciting moment there I thought that you were talking about the > Semi-Automatic Ground Environment - which a friend of mine was a tech on > in North Bay, ON, part of the DEW line! > I was getting ready to up stakes and hop off to Philadelphia! Well, perhaps somebody could entertain us by telling us, what differences we might see between the two machines :-) From boris at summitclinic.com Sat Jan 2 20:38:37 2021 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2021 18:38:37 -0800 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103025348.0E17527421@mx1.ezwind.net> Probably read about this machine in Byte back then but was programming PDP-11's. Was very disappointed in IBM PC as IMO was far inferior to PDP-11 which was was easier to interface to data acquisition hardware and had a much nicer instruction set. Ran into 68000 processor for first time in 1986 when my father bought a 512 K Mac and couldn't believe performance of this CPU compared to PDP-11 - 24 bit addressing! and inferior memory access to what Sage had. Also, found 68000 instruction set very similar to PDP-11 and had no trouble writing assembly code for it a few years later and also really liked Apple's debug switch which was best implementation of a debugging system I've thus far run into. Weird that Rod Coleman had 68000 instruction set associated with IBM 370 whereas to me it was very PDP-11 like and 24 bit addressing was a very nice feature (that was one similarity to IBM 360) Other interesting aspect to SAGE history was the influence of September 1966 issue of Scientific American computer issue on Rod Coleman and lots of other people I've talked to. Was so glad that had this issue to read in 1966 and spent most of my time in boring school classes designing logic circuits and then building them at home using discrete DTL logic with parts salvaged from surplus IBM boards. Thanks for the link as didn't realize 68000 was used for home systems before I ran into Mac. >This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. > >https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer > >I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as >well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and >IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of >the time. > >Also, they were terminal-based things and even back then I was >interested in boxes with graphics. :-) > >-- >Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com >Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven >UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ??R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 7002 829 053 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Jan 2 21:02:28 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 23:02:28 -0400 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> References: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> Message-ID: <74214358-2bdd-eb86-9e0e-225fd702d028@gmail.com> North Bay is not on the DEW line the DEW line is above the arctic circle and while North Bay may seem like the far north to some it is a long way below the arctic circle is actually at about the level of the Pine Tree Line.? CFB North Bay was the SAGE site for the 22nd NORAD region.? The SAGE site was 600 ft under ground in a cavern carved out of solid rock.? I had the good fortune of going on a tour of the underground while the AN/FSQ-7 computers where still operating. Paul. On 2021-01-02 10:08 p.m., Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > For one exciting moment there I thought that you were talking about the > Semi-Automatic Ground Environment - which a friend of mine was a tech on > in North Bay, ON, part of the DEW line! > > I was getting ready to up stakes and hop off to Philadelphia! > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2021-01-02 8:44 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021, 7:11 PM Liam Proven via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. >>> >>> >>> https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer >>> >>> I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as >>> well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and >>> IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of >>> the time. >>> >>> Also, they were terminal-based things and even back then I was >>> interested in boxes with graphics. :-) >>> >> There is a SAGE II at Kennett Classic. When I give tours I like to compare >> and contrast the SAGE with the IBM PC, Motorola 68000 vs Intel 8086. >> >> If anyone is in the Philadelphia area stop by and we can fire them up. >> Pascal. >> >> Bill >> From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 2 21:24:25 2021 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 22:24:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: <74214358-2bdd-eb86-9e0e-225fd702d028@gmail.com> References: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> <74214358-2bdd-eb86-9e0e-225fd702d028@gmail.com> Message-ID: I also had the opportunity to visit the UGC, but after operations had moved aboveground. The followup to SAGE, the AN/FYQ93 (ROCC, SOCC, JSS) equipment was still in place, but powered down. This was in 2007. I had previously worked on both SAGE and the ROCC at McChord AFB as a computer maintenance tech. On Sat, 2 Jan 2021, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > North Bay is not on the DEW line the DEW line is above the arctic circle and > while North Bay may seem like the far north to some it is a long way below > the arctic circle is actually at about the level of the Pine Tree Line.? CFB > North Bay was the SAGE site for the 22nd NORAD region.? The SAGE site was 600 > ft under ground in a cavern carved out of solid rock.? I had the good fortune > of going on a tour of the underground while the AN/FSQ-7 computers where > still operating. > > Paul. > > On 2021-01-02 10:08 p.m., Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> For one exciting moment there I thought that you were talking about the >> Semi-Automatic Ground Environment - which a friend of mine was a tech on >> in North Bay, ON, part of the DEW line! >> >> I was getting ready to up stakes and hop off to Philadelphia! >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> >> >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org >> >> >> >> On 2021-01-02 8:44 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021, 7:11 PM Liam Proven via cctalk >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer >>>> >>>> I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as >>>> well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and >>>> IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of >>>> the time. >>>> >>>> Also, they were terminal-based things and even back then I was >>>> interested in boxes with graphics. :-) >>>> >>> There is a SAGE II at Kennett Classic. When I give tours I like to >>> compare >>> and contrast the SAGE with the IBM PC, Motorola 68000 vs Intel 8086. >>> >>> If anyone is in the Philadelphia area stop by and we can fire them up. >>> Pascal. >>> >>> Bill >>> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 2 21:34:00 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 19:34:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> <74214358-2bdd-eb86-9e0e-225fd702d028@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jan 2021, Liam via cctalk wrote: > I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as > well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and > IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of > the time. Possibly, they weren't aimed at the same target audience. Perhaps they were intended more to compete with machines such as PDP-11, rather than Apple][ and IBM PC. I don't think that they were aimed at kids (of all ages) scrounging some money to get a home computer. They were out of my price range, as well. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 2 21:41:00 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 20:41:00 -0700 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> Message-ID: <8b115528-4885-2f7c-1740-b97b0d444eda@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/2/2021 7:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 2 Jan 2021, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> For one exciting moment there I thought that you were talking about the >> Semi-Automatic Ground Environment - which a friend of mine was a tech on >> in North Bay, ON, part of the DEW line! >> I was getting ready to up stakes and hop off to Philadelphia! > > Well, perhaps somebody could entertain us by telling us, what > differences we might see between the two machines :-) > > Better blinking lights is my guess for the Original. :) A 32?/36? bit transistor mainframe often only had 15 bits of addressing, the same as 128KB for early 68000 computer's. Who was faster is open for debate, a main frame with mag tape or a 68000 running floppies and 3 users. Ben. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 2 22:53:50 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 20:53:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: <20210103025348.0E17527421@mx1.ezwind.net> from Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk at "Jan 2, 21 06:38:37 pm" Message-ID: <202101030453.1034ro4x13565984@floodgap.com> > Thanks for the link as didn't realize 68000 was > used for home systems before I ran into Mac. Don't forget about Alpha Micro, though they preferred to be in multi-user vertically integrated environments rather than the engineering and personal use SAGE seemed to be targetting. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Commodore Business Machines (1954-1994) ----------------------- From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 03:41:42 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 02:41:42 -0700 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: <202101030453.1034ro4x13565984@floodgap.com> References: <20210103025348.0E17527421@mx1.ezwind.net> <202101030453.1034ro4x13565984@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Apparently someone wrote: > Thanks for the link as didn't realize 68000 was > used for home systems before I ran into Mac. > The SAGE certainly wasn't a "home system" in the sense that the Macintosh was. I mean, sure, there were undoubtedly a few people that bought one for home use, but it was certainly not at all marketed for that. There were many other pre-Macintosh 68000 systems that were marketed primarily for developer or business use, for example the Sun 1, Corvus Concept, TRS-80 Model 16, Altos ACS 68000, and Fortune 32:16. From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 3 04:18:48 2021 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 11:18:48 +0100 Subject: Stride computers, was Re: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03.01.21 01:11, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. > > https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer > The story is around for several years already, but yes : interesting read indeed. Speaking of which : I am currently restoring 3 Stride 420 machines, the follow-up to the Sage machines. Anyone has CP/M or PSystem IV.2.2? disks for these, and would like to share ? ( I have PSystem IV.2.1 and PDOS ) Also a copy of UniStride, the UNIX-V for the Stride 440 / 460 would be welcome. I would need top reconstruct the MFM controller for UNIX use, but that would not be unsurmountable. Jos From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 3 08:27:23 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 09:27:23 -0500 Subject: Stride computers, was Re: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-01-03 05:18, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > On 03.01.21 01:11, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> This may be old news -- it was new to me, though. >> >> https://suddendisruption.blogspot.com/search/label/Booting%20Sage%20Computer >> >> > The story is around for several years already, but yes : interesting > read indeed. > > Speaking of which : Just like to rise my hand, in case anybody likes to get rid of his SAGE II or IV ... or even at a decent price. Have one, but never got it really working :( Cheers From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 3 13:23:01 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 12:23:01 -0700 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <01RTY5C48O5K8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RTY5C48O5K8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5cb92a7c-16ab-c2da-f52a-2b1b86cd701c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/3/21 8:40 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Grant, Hi Peter, > Do you think it is likely that an email address like > check212014 at gmail.com is used by an actual real person for their > personal email? I absolutely do. > Multiply the odds of the above by the odds that some spammer > or other individual of malicious intent has had the capability, > the persistence, tenacity and sheer ill will in them that it would > take to carry out a vendetta against poor old check212014 at gmail.com > for five long years, not to mention that when they only succeeed in > causing check212014 at gmail.com any actual difficulty is on the rare > occasions that their trawl of mail servers of the internet manages > to turn up an actual open mail relay? I know multiple people that have signed victims up to mailing lists -- many of which were questionable content -- as an attack on said victims. Pretending to send email from said victims to cause bounces and ire to be (mis)directed at them seems quite the same to me. Five years? Sure. Many people will create filters and simply ignore the messages. As such, it's effectively internet background radiation / wasted bits. > Whack-a-Mole works when everyone whacks their moles. When one major > property owner decides they aren't going to whack the moles in their > garden when all the neighbours keep theirs under control, they are > going to end up with all the moles in their lawn. (We don't have > real live moles in the part of the world were I am so please forgive > me if my analogy is not accurate due to my lack of familiarity with > the species.) > > I am not a lawyer but it appears to me that check212014 at gmail.com is > doing nothing that violates Google's terms of service for using Gmail, So ... by your own words, there is nothing that Google should be doing per their terms of service. > which indicates to me that the terms of service are flawed because > they allow someone to use Google's infrastructure to scan for open > relays to exploit as spam delivery platforms. As far as I know, > no other email provider allows this. I've not seen anything in any provider's terms of service that say anything about what type of email they receive, save for exceedingly few categories; child porn and illegal activity among the short list. I have yet to see anybody state that sending an email to an invalid email address and (potentially) receiving a bounce is illegal. So, again, no grounds for Google to do anything. Feel free to try to get Google to change their terms of service. > I don't see how this relates to Google allowing their services to > be used to test my mail server (and likely thousands of others too) > numerous times over multiple years for being an open relay that could > be exploited to distribute spam. Are the messages /originating/ from Google / Gmail? Or are the messages /originating/ from somewhere else and causing the bounces to go to Google / Gmail? The former is something Google cares about. The latter quite likely is not. > If you burn a junk (snail) mail, could there be a security lapse in > your furnace that would cause it to be replicated into a thousand > copies of itself, run up your chimney and distribute itself into > thousands of your neighbours letterboxes? If not, I think you can > rest easy in the knowledge that you are not causing the problem. The /recipient/ of the messages is *not* the problem. The /source/ of the messages *is* the problem. What is done with what is received is independent of the source of the problem. > Nothing. The problem is with the terms of service. This is where > the evil is. See above regarding terms of service. > I feel obliged to try suggestions made in good faith, if nothing > else just to prove they don't work. I made one general report > regarding the issues with check212014 at gmail.com over the last > five years using the form Mike suggested. Since then, there have > been two further attempts to relay mail through my mail server to > check212014 at gmail.com. I have made two specific reports using the > form Mike suggested, providing all the details I have available to me. Good for you. Thank you for trying to maintain the high road. > Interestingly, both attempts were made from 37.46.150.239. Full stop. 37.46.150.239 is *NOT* Google IP address space. According to WhoIs, that address space belongs to Serverion BV. So, chances are quite good that your reports to Google are going to be silently dismissed because the source of the abuse does not originate from Google resources. If anything, Google's user is also a victim. > The abuse contact email address for 37.46.150.239 listed in > whois.ripe.net is abuse at serverion.com. I have had reason to send 13 > reports of abuse of my systems by various Serverion BV ip addresses to > abuse at serverion.com during December alone. I have had zero response > from them and the abuse from their ip address range continues daily. Sadly, many companies leave a LOT to be desired when it comes to abuse handling, especially when the abuse originates from their organization. If you routinely have problems with Serverion, then I suggest you consider blocking them. > Guess who handles the mail service for abuse at serverion.com? > Who enables Serverion BV to drop abuse reports in the bitbucket > more likely. That's right, Google mail services. Why is this not > a surprise to me? Who handles Serverion's incoming email has exceedingly little to with who's responsible for traffic originating from Serverion's network. > Regards, Likewise. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 3 15:00:16 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 15:00:16 -0600 Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator Message-ID: <000001d6e213$704b5710$50e20530$@classiccmp.org> Anyone know who did/does the Altair peripheral emulator (not to be confused with the other APE, for Atari)? Originator give me a ring on email or via discord please ? J From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 3 16:44:34 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 17:44:34 -0500 Subject: Ouch, but 2 Perqs out. In-Reply-To: References: <54ef3649-a10a-4f0d-ff6e-ab3985360c42@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Hi all! Well another trip into the basement today. Found a second Perq type 1 keyboard (with the LED panel on the back), a pair of platform things that look like they might be digitizer pads, and about 20 MFM hard disk drives of every model and vintage. One of the Perq2's does not have a back panel (I can see the CPU boards) but the other one does. So the other one may have drives in it. I dragged out a BA11-SA type chassis and there is a pdp11/03 version of one with a very rusted rack slide part. Will figure those out later. However with the disks out I have space to put other stuff on the shelves and start working on getting the HP1000 out. With that out I'll have enough space to get the Suns somewhere and will try to take apart a T2 in situ to see if it can come up the stairs. If not I'll take the cards first, then disks, then go from there. Tired. CZ From rdbrown0au at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:51:38 2021 From: rdbrown0au at gmail.com (Rodney Brown) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 09:51:38 +1100 Subject: Diomidis Spinellis blog: Reviving the 1973 Unix text to voice translator Message-ID: <28cdf5d5-a5e4-5b3f-950b-b809fb825606@gmail.com> https://www.spinellis.gr/blog/20210102/ https://github.com/dspinellis/speak (Votrax phoneme output) From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:54:06 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 17:54:06 -0500 Subject: Emails going to spam folder in gmail In-Reply-To: <5cb92a7c-16ab-c2da-f52a-2b1b86cd701c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <01RTY5C48O5K8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> <5cb92a7c-16ab-c2da-f52a-2b1b86cd701c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > > The /recipient/ of the messages is *not* the problem. The /source/ of > the messages *is* the problem. > > What is done with what is received is independent of the source of the > problem. > Yes! This is absolutely true. Some of the members of this list use mail servers whose outbound emails are not properly authenticated. That is the issue I was addressing in the initial post in this thread. Authentication is something individual members have control over to fix. Bill Degnan > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 18:08:38 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 01:08:38 +0100 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 03:53, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > > Ran into 68000 processor for > first time in 1986 when my father bought a 512 K > Mac and couldn't believe performance of this CPU It is odd. I had read of it, of course, but for me the revelation was getting an Acorn Archimedes in 1989, with an 8MHz ARM2, and seeing it blast past benchmarks of ~8MHz 68K machines such as the Amiga 500 or Atari 512 ST. It was about 4x faster, I believe. For me -- being a bit too young for the early days of the 68K family -- it was not a performance chip, but more about its ability to have lots of flat memory, unlike the crippled Intel chips that IBM used. > Weird that Rod Coleman had 68000 > instruction set associated with IBM 370 whereas > to me it was very PDP-11 like I've heard that before, yes,. and never the IBM comparison. I suppose it is a matter of what you're more familiar with. > Thanks for the link as didn't realize 68000 was > used for home systems before I ran into Mac. Sinclair's QL used a 68008 and was launched some weeks before the Mac. Of course Apple's own Lisa was before the Mac, too. Very soon after came the Amiga and ST -- the "Jackintosh", "power without the price." -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 3 21:30:47 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 22:30:47 -0500 Subject: Setting switches for a Vertex 150 possibly for a perq Message-ID: <22c86056-eadc-9d64-d41a-5767a8083aa4@alembic.crystel.com> Hi! I'm trying to read possible Perq2 data off a 40mb Vertex V150 drive. Unfortunately the switches were scrambled and I can't seem to figure out which settings work. Does anyone have one that can check their switch settings? This doesn't seem to work: https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/vertex/V150-43MB-5-25-FH-MFM-ST506.html From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 04:38:23 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 11:38:23 +0100 Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator In-Reply-To: <000001d6e213$704b5710$50e20530$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d6e213$704b5710$50e20530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 03:07, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > > (not to be confused with the other APE, for Atari)? There's also an Apricot emulator by that name: https://ai.ansible.uk/ape.html from https://ai.ansible.uk/freebies.html Plan 9 has an APE too... http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/ape -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 05:07:38 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 06:07:38 -0500 Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator In-Reply-To: <000001d6e213$704b5710$50e20530$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d6e213$704b5710$50e20530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <191001d6e289$d098f390$71cadab0$@gmail.com> According to http://home.comcast.net/~forbin376/AboutUs.htm -- Frank Barberis. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 4:00 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator Anyone know who did/does the Altair peripheral emulator (not to be confused with the other APE, for Atari)? Originator give me a ring on email or via discord please ? J From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 4 08:35:46 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 09:35:46 -0500 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> On 2021-01-03 19:08, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 03:53, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: >> >> Ran into 68000 processor for >> first time in 1986 when my father bought a 512 K >> Mac and couldn't believe performance of this CPU > > It is odd. I had read of it, of course, but for me the revelation was > getting an Acorn Archimedes in 1989, with an 8MHz ARM2, and seeing it > blast past benchmarks of ~8MHz 68K machines such as the Amiga 500 or > Atari 512 ST. It was about 4x faster, I believe. I guess we have to be careful, comparing machines & CPUs. 68000 came out as a CPU in 1980/1981 (available on the market (?)) You're comparing it to a ARM2 machine of 1987, where Motorola had the newer 68020, and 68030 by than ... From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 09:38:29 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 16:38:29 +0100 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 15:35, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > I guess we have to be careful, comparing machines & CPUs. > 68000 came out as a CPU in 1980/1981 (available on the market (?)) > > You're comparing it to a ARM2 machine of 1987, where Motorola had the > newer 68020, and 68030 by than ... That's a fair objection. :-) I suppose that the 68K only trickled down to the home/consumer market after about 5 years. The original Mac was circa $2.5K and the Lisa was around $10K -- *not* home computer prices for most people, even in the USA. The Sinclair QL was arguably the first affordable mass-market 68K box, and it used the somewhat crippled 68008 and 8-bit RAM to keep costs down. Before the Mac, I suppose that, as Cameron points out, the accurate comparison was with standalone multi-user machines such as the Sage and Alpha Micro. Desktop minicomputers, really. These were fading from the market when I started my first job in 1988. The only ones I personally worked on were Jarograte Sprite machines -- of which barely a trace remains on the WWW now, sadly. I'd like to know more about Jarogate and their products -- most of what I did was helping migrate stuff _off_ them onto either 386s running SCO Xenix, or small PC LANs. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 4 10:00:10 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 11:00:10 -0500 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> <74214358-2bdd-eb86-9e0e-225fd702d028@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2021-01-02 22:34, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 2 Jan 2021, Liam via cctalk wrote: >> ?I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as >> ?well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and >> ?IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of >> ?the time. > > Possibly, they weren't aimed at the same target audience. > > Perhaps they were intended more to compete with machines such as PDP-11, > rather than Apple][ and IBM PC. I was working 1981 with pdp11s and VAX780. Then I heard/read about the 68000, had to have one of those. Simple programming model, flat address space and really good performance. Signed up at a startup in Germany in 1982, had a lot of fun with all of them(68000, '10, '20, '30, '40). We basically only sold to research/labs. Every time, somebody told us the PC is better, we asked them to run their code on the 68000 and compare themselves. That's how easy it was back than ;-) We ran our own OS, own compilers, and also UCSD Pascal, CPM/68k, APL, coherent Unix ... Was a lot of fun. When I saw the Sage II on a fair, I thought it is a pretty cool machine, but lacking graphics. Still was impressed with their marketing ... Cheers From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 10:42:22 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 11:42:22 -0500 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > I suppose that the 68K only trickled down to the home/consumer market > after about 5 years. The original Mac was circa $2.5K and the Lisa was > around $10K -- *not* home computer prices for most people, even in the > USA. > > The Sinclair QL was arguably the first affordable mass-market 68K box, > and it used the somewhat crippled 68008 and 8-bit RAM to keep costs > down. > > Before the Mac, I suppose that, as Cameron points out, the accurate > comparison was with standalone multi-user machines such as the Sage > and Alpha Micro. Desktop minicomputers, really. > > Agreed. A fully provisioned IBM PC / XT in 1981-4 was pretty expensive too, that's why 8-bit machines continued to sell well into the later 80's. 16-bit was overkill for most home needs. Apple would not have survived the 80's without their 8-bit machine sales, and Commodore, Atari, Tandy.... Bill From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 11:26:08 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 18:26:08 +0100 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 17:42, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Agreed. > > A fully provisioned IBM PC / XT in 1981-4 was pretty expensive too, that's why 8-bit machines continued to sell well into the later 80's. 16-bit was overkill for most home needs. Apple would not have survived the 80's without their 8-bit machine sales, and Commodore, Atari, Tandy.... Definitely true. And one thing that interests me is the double factoid: [1] The companies that threw away their 8-bit line and did something totally new for their 16-bit lines generally did better, and attempts at backwards-compatibility failed _except_ [2] For Intel/MICROS~1, who somehow managed to smoothly transition from 8/16 ? true 16-bit ? 32-bit ? 64-bit ? multi-CPU ? multi-core/multi-CPU, across multiple expansion buses, memory architectures and more... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 4 11:40:15 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 10:40:15 -0700 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <2f9fdea6-d0c0-8f51-82d3-5a1c3c5eeec9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/4/2021 10:26 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 17:42, Bill Degnan wrote: > >> >> Agreed. >> >> A fully provisioned IBM PC / XT in 1981-4 was pretty expensive too, that's why 8-bit machines continued to sell well into the later 80's. 16-bit was overkill for most home needs. Apple would not have survived the 80's without their 8-bit machine sales, and Commodore, Atari, Tandy.... > > Definitely true. > > And one thing that interests me is the double factoid: > [1] The companies that threw away their 8-bit line and did something > totally new for their 16-bit lines generally did better, and attempts > at backwards-compatibility failed > > _except_ > > [2] For Intel/MICROS~1, who somehow managed to smoothly transition > from 8/16 ? true 16-bit ? 32-bit ? 64-bit ? multi-CPU ? > multi-core/multi-CPU, across multiple expansion buses, memory > architectures and more... > I say IBM is the winner here. IBM 7030 Stretch gave IBM a design based on 8 bit bytes, that followed with the IBM 360. Salesman love bytes because now your 4K of memory (36/48 bits) is 32KB of IBM memory and time sharing because you can FAKE the need for real memory. Ben Fan of 36 bits but not the PDP 10. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 4 12:18:59 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 13:18:59 -0500 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <7508a549-d59d-edb5-e50c-f12fd0055dc9@ieee.org> <74214358-2bdd-eb86-9e0e-225fd702d028@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7660BEEA-74BC-4585-B66F-EB4A8CA8ED58@comcast.net> > On Jan 4, 2021, at 11:00 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > On 2021-01-02 22:34, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, 2 Jan 2021, Liam via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm not really familiar with SAGE machines. They were not as >>> well-known in the UK, I think, being upmarket from the Apple ][ and >>> IBM PC, both of which were eye-wateringly expensive by UK standards of >>> the time. >> >> Possibly, they weren't aimed at the same target audience. >> >> Perhaps they were intended more to compete with machines such as PDP-11, >> rather than Apple][ and IBM PC. > > I was working 1981 with pdp11s and VAX780. Then I heard/read about the > 68000, had to have one of those. Simple programming model, flat address > space and really good performance. Signed up at a startup in Germany in > 1982, had a lot of fun with all of them(68000, '10, '20, '30, '40). We > basically only sold to research/labs. I was at DEC at the time, and I remember discussions around the office saying "this is a VAX on a chip". The instruction set made it feel that way. Not long after that, Apollo Computer was founded to build workstations using the 68000. They found out the hard way it is NOT a VAX on a chip. The key design error is that the 68000 had page access aborts, not page faults -- they weren't restartable so you could not create virtual memory using its page access flags. That mistake was fixed in the 68010. I vaguely remember that Apollo worked around the issue by using a pair of 68000 chips running one cycle apart, so when the abort hit on the lead one you could stop the trailing one and fake a restartable page fault. Some years later I wrote the fast packet handling code of the DECbridge 900 (?) -- FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports. That used a 68040 at 25 MHz, and with careful design it could process a packet every 8 microseconds (12 microseconds if the destination address wasn't in the address cache CAM). One trick was a memory system that did some operations on the rising edge and some on the falling edge, i.e., effectively a "2.5 cycle" access. The other (mine) was to use the fact that the 68040 had a "RISC subset" of instructions and addressing modes that would run in one or two cycles, while the other instructions took MUCH longer. By sticking to handwritten assembly language in the RISC subset I could make it go very fast. It also required awareness of oddities like the fact that branch-taken is faster than branch-not-taken, the opposite of pretty much every other computer. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 4 13:20:01 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 11:20:01 -0800 Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator In-Reply-To: <191001d6e289$d098f390$71cadab0$@gmail.com> References: <000001d6e213$704b5710$50e20530$@classiccmp.org> <191001d6e289$d098f390$71cadab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/2021 3:07 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > According to http://home.comcast.net/~forbin376/AboutUs.htm -- Frank Barberis. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 4:00 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator > > Anyone know who did/does the Altair peripheral emulator (not to be confused with the other APE, for Atari)? > > Originator give me a ring on email or via discord please ? > > J This is a link to the zip download https://web.archive.org/web/20151002082400/http://home.comcast.net/~forbin376/Files/APE_1_0_2_0.zip this is the home page for the project https://web.archive.org/web/20150623115257/http://home.comcast.net/~forbin376/ comcast seems to have killed the site for me (at least from a couple of systems and network paths) thanks Jim From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Jan 4 13:29:42 2021 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 20:29:42 +0100 Subject: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: m?n 2021-01-04 klockan 16:38 +0100 skrev Liam Proven via cctalk: > > The Sinclair QL was arguably the first affordable mass-market 68K > box, > and it used the somewhat crippled 68008 and 8-bit RAM to keep costs > down. > The veird machine is the Luxor ABC 1600 computer. It was a test from them together with a consulting firm to design and sell a UNIX based system (an version of Sys III if i'm not wrong) using an MC 68008 but with a A4 portrait monitor. The weird thing: why did they try to use a crippled processor (but it gave them cheaper peripherals) but a fairly expensive graphical subsystem with monitor.... Have and Have nots... See http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/luxor/abc1600 and yes it is Mattis Lind together with his father Rune who run this little museum. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 4 13:35:15 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 11:35:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2021, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I suppose that the 68K only trickled down to the home/consumer market > after about 5 years. The original Mac was circa $2.5K and the Lisa was > around $10K -- *not* home computer prices for most people, even in the > USA. And yet, . . . I remember an Apple Lisa ad that showed a toddler playing with it on the living room rug. (Probably rolling the mouse around and making "VROOM! VROOM!" noises, pretending that it was a car) Similar ads for Macintosh and IBM PC. The marketing people TRIED to portray them as home computers. You can place an infant on a Cray Couch; that still doesn't make that a home computer. YES, a fully loaded IBM PC, complete with buying a full suite of software from IBM WAS comparable in price to a complete Macintosh. However, the ENTRY point was lower. You could buy a minimal machine and expand it yourself. My first TRS-80 was $400, because I used my own monitor and cassette. And then later, my own disk drives. My first 5150 was less than $1500, because I used my own monitor, memory, disk drives, and printer. Segmented memory was a kludge, and not the only kludge. Remember that a DMA transfer could not straddle a 64K boundary! Many programs, even MS-DOS, failed to take that into account adequately! It was not hard to handle that particular one - just test for it, and rearrange your larger data structures accordingly. BUT, by building through a series of kludges, it was truly trivial to port software as the machines progressed. At time of release, IBM had pre-planned to have VisiCalc and Easy-Writer. Porting Wordstar to the PC was fast and easy; it took them longer to edit the documentation (using a word processor?). Porting SuperCalc (a major VisiClone) was very quick. The opposite approach, of NO KLUDGES, resulted in much better product. But, it took longer, AND, it meant a serious delay for software, since any low-level software would then also need to be rewritten from scratch. To avoid the PR nightmare of a machine with no software, Apple decided that when the Macintosh would be released, it would come with four significant software packages. It ended up being scaled back to the four being Mac-Write, Mac-Paint, Mac-Write, and Mac-Paint. But, it came with some usable software. It took a long time before after-market software, even spreadsheets, were available for the Macintosh. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Jan 4 13:44:22 2021 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 14:44:22 -0500 Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator In-Reply-To: References: <000001d6e213$704b5710$50e20530$@classiccmp.org> <191001d6e289$d098f390$71cadab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I actually have the content and it's on my ClassicCmp site. Jay and I are working to get it "published" to make it accessible. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 ?On 1/4/21, 2:20 PM, "cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk" wrote: On 1/4/2021 3:07 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > According to http://home.comcast.net/~forbin376/AboutUs.htm -- Frank Barberis. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 4:00 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: APE - ALTAIR peripheripheral emulator > > Anyone know who did/does the Altair peripheral emulator (not to be confused with the other APE, for Atari)? > > Originator give me a ring on email or via discord please ? > > J This is a link to the zip download https://web.archive.org/web/20151002082400/http://home.comcast.net/~forbin376/Files/APE_1_0_2_0.zip this is the home page for the project https://web.archive.org/web/20150623115257/http://home.comcast.net/~forbin376/ comcast seems to have killed the site for me (at least from a couple of systems and network paths) thanks Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 4 15:31:55 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 21:31:55 +0000 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. Although, it was generally not intended as a development machine, in its short life, several applications were developed. It was primarily sold as a word processor ( quite powerful one at that ). It had Forth running under the word processor. One could do both assembly and other things once one understood how to access the Forth. If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. It has a common problem that if you don't understand it will destroy the drive. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 11:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: personal history of personal computers On Mon, 4 Jan 2021, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I suppose that the 68K only trickled down to the home/consumer market > after about 5 years. The original Mac was circa $2.5K and the Lisa was > around $10K -- *not* home computer prices for most people, even in the > USA. And yet, . . . I remember an Apple Lisa ad that showed a toddler playing with it on the living room rug. (Probably rolling the mouse around and making "VROOM! VROOM!" noises, pretending that it was a car) Similar ads for Macintosh and IBM PC. The marketing people TRIED to portray them as home computers. You can place an infant on a Cray Couch; that still doesn't make that a home computer. YES, a fully loaded IBM PC, complete with buying a full suite of software from IBM WAS comparable in price to a complete Macintosh. However, the ENTRY point was lower. You could buy a minimal machine and expand it yourself. My first TRS-80 was $400, because I used my own monitor and cassette. And then later, my own disk drives. My first 5150 was less than $1500, because I used my own monitor, memory, disk drives, and printer. Segmented memory was a kludge, and not the only kludge. Remember that a DMA transfer could not straddle a 64K boundary! Many programs, even MS-DOS, failed to take that into account adequately! It was not hard to handle that particular one - just test for it, and rearrange your larger data structures accordingly. BUT, by building through a series of kludges, it was truly trivial to port software as the machines progressed. At time of release, IBM had pre-planned to have VisiCalc and Easy-Writer. Porting Wordstar to the PC was fast and easy; it took them longer to edit the documentation (using a word processor?). Porting SuperCalc (a major VisiClone) was very quick. The opposite approach, of NO KLUDGES, resulted in much better product. But, it took longer, AND, it meant a serious delay for software, since any low-level software would then also need to be rewritten from scratch. To avoid the PR nightmare of a machine with no software, Apple decided that when the Macintosh would be released, it would come with four significant software packages. It ended up being scaled back to the four being Mac-Write, Mac-Paint, Mac-Write, and Mac-Paint. But, it came with some usable software. It took a long time before after-market software, even spreadsheets, were available for the Macintosh. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jan 4 15:38:01 2021 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 16:38:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: Andy Molloy had a Canon Cat at VCF East in 2006. Unfortunately, it smoked. http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4151-f.jpg On Mon, 4 Jan 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. Although, it was generally not intended as a development machine, in its short life, several applications were developed. > It was primarily sold as a word processor ( quite powerful one at that ). It had Forth running under the word processor. One could do both assembly and other things once one understood how to access the Forth. > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. > It has a common problem that if you don't understand it will destroy the drive. > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 11:35 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: personal history of personal computers > > On Mon, 4 Jan 2021, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> I suppose that the 68K only trickled down to the home/consumer market >> after about 5 years. The original Mac was circa $2.5K and the Lisa was >> around $10K -- *not* home computer prices for most people, even in the >> USA. > > And yet, . . . > I remember an Apple Lisa ad that showed a toddler playing with it on the > living room rug. (Probably rolling the mouse around and making "VROOM! > VROOM!" noises, pretending that it was a car) > Similar ads for Macintosh and IBM PC. > The marketing people TRIED to portray them as home computers. > You can place an infant on a Cray Couch; that still doesn't make that a > home computer. > > YES, a fully loaded IBM PC, complete with buying a full suite of software > from IBM WAS comparable in price to a complete Macintosh. However, the > ENTRY point was lower. You could buy a minimal machine and expand it > yourself. > My first TRS-80 was $400, because I used my own monitor and cassette. And > then later, my own disk drives. > My first 5150 was less than $1500, because I used my own monitor, memory, > disk drives, and printer. > > > Segmented memory was a kludge, and not the only kludge. Remember that a > DMA transfer could not straddle a 64K boundary! Many programs, even > MS-DOS, failed to take that into account adequately! It was not hard to > handle that particular one - just test for it, and rearrange your larger > data structures accordingly. > > > BUT, by building through a series of kludges, it was truly trivial to port > software as the machines progressed. At time of release, IBM had > pre-planned to have VisiCalc and Easy-Writer. > Porting Wordstar to the PC was fast and easy; it took them longer to edit > the documentation (using a word processor?). > Porting SuperCalc (a major VisiClone) was very quick. > > > The opposite approach, of NO KLUDGES, resulted in much better product. > But, it took longer, AND, it meant a serious delay for software, since > any low-level software would then also need to be rewritten from scratch. > To avoid the PR nightmare of a machine with no software, Apple decided > that when the Macintosh would be released, it would come with four > significant software packages. It ended up being scaled back to the four > being Mac-Write, Mac-Paint, Mac-Write, and Mac-Paint. But, it came with > some usable software. > It took a long time before after-market software, even spreadsheets, were > available for the Macintosh. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 4 15:42:28 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 13:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 2021, dwight wrote: > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. Although, it was generally not intended as a development machine, in its short life, several applications were developed. > It was primarily sold as a word processor ( quite powerful one at that ). It had Forth running under the word processor. One could do both assembly and other things once one understood how to access the Forth. > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. > It has a common problem that if you don't understand it will destroy the drive. > Dwight That was an amazing machine. Raskin was an amazing character. He was responsible for many innovations and design decisions throughout the industry. (and, I almost ended up getting his electric minivan) I had a running argument with Jef. If you have a room full of a variety of disks, including multiple MFM formats AND GCR, the default when it couldn't read a disk should NOT be to FORMAT it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 4 15:43:07 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 16:43:07 -0500 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2021-01-04 4:38 p.m., Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > ?? Andy Molloy had a Canon Cat at VCF East in 2006. Unfortunately, it > smoked. > > http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4151-f.jpg > ... there's one on ebay now FWIW. --Toby From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 15:43:20 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 13:43:20 -0800 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2021, 1:38 PM Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > Andy Molloy had a Canon Cat at VCF East in 2006. Unfortunately, it > smoked. > > http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2006/dscn4151-f.jpg Someone could buy one from Jack and fix it up eBay 324441040706. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 4 16:04:39 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 14:04:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: On the issue of the Cat re-formatting disks that it couldn't read, my suggestion was that they should add enough circuitry that it could recognize the existence of FM, MFM, and GCR formats. Then, it could say, "This disk appears to already be formatted for a different kind of machine. Would you like to erase it and reformat for this machine?" I offered to provide data, so that if it could also identify recording format, number of sides formatted, and maybe even bytes per sector and sectors per track, it could expand the massge to include "The following machines are some of the possibilities of what it is formatted for:" . . . and, of course, the ultimate would be to implement some other file systems, so that it could access what was on the disk. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 4 16:40:07 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:40:07 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? Message-ID: Can someone check to see if a RQDX2 used the Western Digital chips to interface to MFM drives? Reason I'm asking is the MFM emulator can identify an RQDX3, and also a Pro/350 controller but this particular RD52 I have (which was verified by me to run Digital Mumps) is reading as: root at beaglebone:~/mfm# ./mfm_read -a Board revision C detected Found drive at select 3 Returning to track 0 Drive RPM 3525.4 Matches count 36 for controller WD_1006 Header CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff Sector length 512 Data CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff Interleave mismatch previous entry 0, 9 was 1 now 0 Selected head 8 found 0, last good head found 7 Read errors trying to determine sector numbering, results may be in error Number of heads 8 number of sectors 18 first sector 0 Unable to determine interleave. Interleave value is not required Drive supports buffered seeks (ST412) Disk has recalibrated to track 0 Stopping end of disk search due to recalibration Number of cylinders 512, 37.7 MB Thanks! CZ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 4 17:19:59 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 15:19:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: from dwight via cctalk at "Jan 4, 21 09:31:55 pm" Message-ID: <202101042319.104NJxpE17301598@floodgap.com> > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. I love the form factor of my Cat. Wish it was easier to "do things" with it though. > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. Don't leave us in suspense! However, mine seems to be fine. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why is it you can only trust short, dumpy spies? -- Hogan, "Hogan's Heroes" From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jan 4 18:04:47 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:04:47 -0700 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 3:40 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Can someone check to see if a RQDX2 used the Western Digital chips to > interface to MFM drives? Reason I'm asking is the MFM emulator can > identify an RQDX3, and also a Pro/350 controller but this particular > RD52 I have (which was verified by me to run Digital Mumps) is reading as: > > root at beaglebone:~/mfm# ./mfm_read -a > Board revision C detected > Found drive at select 3 > Returning to track 0 > Drive RPM 3525.4 > Matches count 36 for controller WD_1006 > Header CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff > Sector length 512 > Data CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff > Interleave mismatch previous entry 0, 9 was 1 now 0 > Selected head 8 found 0, last good head found 7 > Read errors trying to determine sector numbering, results may be in error > Number of heads 8 number of sectors 18 first sector 0 > Unable to determine interleave. Interleave value is not required > Drive supports buffered seeks (ST412) > Disk has recalibrated to track 0 > Stopping end of disk search due to recalibration > Number of cylinders 512, 37.7 MB > 18 sectors seems odd. The Rainbow had a limit of 16 sectors, but that may have been due to other reasons... It had a WD10xx controller. Warner From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jan 4 18:12:38 2021 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 19:12:38 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9882d82d-57f6-6c8a-90ce-1e6047f591d5@rickmurphy.net> On 1/4/2021 5:40 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Can someone check to see if a RQDX2 used the Western Digital chips to > interface to MFM drives? There's certainly nothing obviously Western Digital. The board has a bunch of 74LS logic, several PALs, two 27128 EPROMs for firmware, and one 40 pin IC which is a T-11.? Part number 21-17311-01, which checks out, for that chip. Bus interfaces - DC005, DC003. Looks like random logic to interface to the drives, with the T11 doing the heavy lifting along with a bunch of PALs. ??? -Rick From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 4 18:35:20 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 19:35:20 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B2EDCC7-FD65-4684-AD2F-23C7A917ACB8@comcast.net> > On Jan 4, 2021, at 7:04 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 3:40 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > >> Can someone check to see if a RQDX2 used the Western Digital chips to >> interface to MFM drives? Reason I'm asking is the MFM emulator can >> identify an RQDX3, and also a Pro/350 controller but this particular >> RD52 I have (which was verified by me to run Digital Mumps) is reading as: >> >> root at beaglebone:~/mfm# ./mfm_read -a >> Board revision C detected >> Found drive at select 3 >> Returning to track 0 >> Drive RPM 3525.4 >> Matches count 36 for controller WD_1006 >> Header CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff >> Sector length 512 >> Data CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff >> Interleave mismatch previous entry 0, 9 was 1 now 0 >> Selected head 8 found 0, last good head found 7 >> Read errors trying to determine sector numbering, results may be in error >> Number of heads 8 number of sectors 18 first sector 0 >> Unable to determine interleave. Interleave value is not required >> Drive supports buffered seeks (ST412) >> Disk has recalibrated to track 0 >> Stopping end of disk search due to recalibration >> Number of cylinders 512, 37.7 MB >> > > 18 sectors seems odd. The Rainbow had a limit of 16 sectors, but that may > have been due to other reasons... It had a WD10xx controller. The Pro also has 16 sectors, that's a limitation of the sector address register. I know the Pro format is different than the RQDXn format; the latter is larger presumably because of more sectors per track. So that would fit. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 4 18:44:04 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 19:44:04 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <2B2EDCC7-FD65-4684-AD2F-23C7A917ACB8@comcast.net> References: <2B2EDCC7-FD65-4684-AD2F-23C7A917ACB8@comcast.net> Message-ID: > The Pro also has 16 sectors, that's a limitation of the sector address register. I know the Pro format is different than the RQDXn format; the latter is larger presumably because of more sectors per track. So that would fit. That's good to know then, I won't try putting it in my Pro/380. I guess I *did* have an RQDX2 running in one of my pdp11's 30 years ago. Yeah, maybe: I had the BA11-SA's running at the time and I guess I just found a BA23 disk bulkhead and had a pile of spaghetti on the floor. I'll think about buying one on Ebay unless someone here wants to trade an RQDX3 for one. Getting a working image of this disk copied off using pdp11_gui would be neat. Hm, would it then boot on a SIMH RQDX3 controller since the image is not a bit image but an MCSP image? On a related note, anyone have a set of P/OS 3.2 floppies I can borrow? I'd like to get a version of P/OS running that can support split I/D. Chris From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 18:53:18 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 19:53:18 -0500 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: <202101042319.104NJxpE17301598@floodgap.com> References: <202101042319.104NJxpE17301598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Need to grease/lube it periodically On Mon, Jan 4, 2021, 6:20 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. > > I love the form factor of my Cat. Wish it was easier to "do things" with it > though. > > > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to > me. > > Don't leave us in suspense! However, mine seems to be fine. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Why is it you can only trust short, dumpy spies? -- Hogan, "Hogan's > Heroes" > From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 4 19:39:30 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 17:39:30 -0800 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <202101042319.104NJxpE17301598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2021-01-04 at 19:53 -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Need to grease/lube it periodically Is it English? I understand the English stopped building computers because they couldn't figure out how to make them leak oil. > On Mon, Jan 4, 2021, 6:20 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. > > > > I love the form factor of my Cat. Wish it was easier to "do things" > > with itthough. > > > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you > > > talk to > > me. > > Don't leave us in suspense! However, mine seems to be fine. > > -------------------------------------- personal: > > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems > > * www.floodgap.com *ckaiser at floodgap.com > > -- Why is it you can only trust short, dumpy spies? -- Hogan, > > "Hogan'sHeroes" From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jan 4 20:31:42 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 18:31:42 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage, part 2 Message-ID: An update on keyboard storage, which I asked about here last month. I ordered some USPS Large Flat Rate Priority Mail "board game" boxes. This is a size not usually available at the post office and come 25 in a pack. They are a good size for mailing (and I am glad that I ordered them so I can use them for that), but I don't think they work for keyboard storage. They are so much larger than the keyboards that I am storing that lots of packing material is needed so they don't move around. Also, they are designed to be sealed and shipped, so there isn't a convenient way to open them once they have been closed. Next, I ordered the Uline keyboard boxes. I had to get 25 of them and they are not free ($2.70 per box plus tax and shipping). They can be open and closed. They are a much closer to the size of a keyboard (surprise, surprise!) so not much packing material needed, but they are slightly smaller than a Sun Type 5c (as well as Axil) keyboard and needed to modified for those two. No modification needed to store a Sun Type 4 or CompuAdd Sun-compatible keyboard in one. I haven't tried a Sun Type 6 yet. To anyone in the Seattle area that need keyboard boxes, I will probably have 10-15 of them once I get all of my keyboards packed. If you would like any, let me know. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jan 4 20:54:28 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 18:54:28 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage, part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57665b06-3764-2610-85dd-ccbbe233b642@snowmoose.com> Update to my update. Sun Type 6 requires box modification. Sun Type 3 fits without modification. On 1/4/21 6:31 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > An update on keyboard storage, which I asked about here last month. > > I ordered some USPS Large Flat Rate Priority Mail "board game" boxes. > This is a size not usually available at the post office and come 25 in a > pack. They are a good size for mailing (and I am glad that I ordered > them so I can use them for that), but I don't think they work for > keyboard storage. They are so much larger than the keyboards that I am > storing that lots of packing material is needed so they don't move > around. Also, they are designed to be sealed and shipped, so there isn't > a convenient way to open them once they have been closed. > > Next, I ordered the Uline keyboard boxes. I had to get 25 of them and > they are not free ($2.70 per box plus tax and shipping). They can be > open and closed. They are a much closer to the size of a keyboard > (surprise, surprise!) so not much packing material needed, but they are > slightly smaller than a Sun Type 5c (as well as Axil) keyboard and > needed to modified for those two. No modification needed to store a Sun > Type 4 or CompuAdd Sun-compatible keyboard in one. I haven't tried a Sun > Type 6 yet. > > To anyone in the Seattle area that need keyboard boxes, I will probably > have 10-15 of them once I get all of my keyboards packed. If you would > like any, let me know. > > alan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 4 21:17:02 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 03:17:02 +0000 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: <202101042319.104NJxpE17301598@floodgap.com> References: from dwight via cctalk at "Jan 4, 21 09:31:55 pm",<202101042319.104NJxpE17301598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: there is a sing rail that guide the head. At the back of the rail is a small nylon tab that holds it in place. The way they mad it, it is over stressed and will have failed. This means the rail is not held down securely. Eventually the rail will pop up, not being held down securely any more. You will find the first indication is that the disk will not eject properly. the temptation is to pull it out, thinking it is just a sticky eject, but that isn't the problem. It is catching on the head. Eventually it will catch really well and you'll rip the head of the mount. At this point the disk can not be repaired. It is an unusual drive, being single sided and requiring the DriveReady signal. It also has a build in cable instead of the standard edge connector and power connector. Most of the new drive no longer have the DriveReady signal, even as an option. One can make changes to the software if you know how to use the data or sector pulse as a DriveReady. This usually requires a one shot to hold the pulse for the software to recognize the pulse. There are several things on can do with it. With a few simple modifications, one can increase the RAM ( mostly just installing ) but for text you can't have more than 100K. It is possible to use a newer version of the software that includes the assembler. One of the more frustrating things is that it normally only has drivers for Cannon printers, with the excepting that it will also do the FX80 compatible printers. It is not too hard to write one's own printer drive and substitute it for one of the printer drivers. This is normally done such that it will use a portion of the disk and overlay in RAM for one of the drivers. I've done this to use a HP pcl5 type printer. ( I don't support all of the funny characters though ). You can write your code in the editor and compile it into RAM. As an extension, it can be saved on onto the disk such that it is available the next time you use that disk. As I recall, the official software is 1.73. The new code with the assembler is 2.40 ( never released ). I have a copy of that version. Anyway, the RAM can be expanded by putting chips into the sockets and adding socket to the last row. I've expanded the RAM even more by adding a large CMOS RAM to an unused address decoded area. One does have to make a minor hack and add a gate to deal with the high/low byte 68000. I just mount a IC dead bug but one does have to lift a couple leads of the 68000. I use the extra RAM to recompile the Forth and editor software, to blow as an EPROM. I can compile it to run in the RAM space or the EPROM area. This allows me to test it first before changing the constant for the offset. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 3:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: personal history of personal computers > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. I love the form factor of my Cat. Wish it was easier to "do things" with it though. > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. Don't leave us in suspense! However, mine seems to be fine. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why is it you can only trust short, dumpy spies? -- Hogan, "Hogan's Heroes" From Rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 5 05:47:24 2021 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 11:47:24 +0000 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> I?m not sure where i read it, but i?m pretty sure the main ?brains? of the RQDX2 is a T-11 (PDP-11 FALCON) chip, and that does the negotiations between disk and system. I don?t know if it?s the same for the RQDX3, but i?d suspect not, as the incompatabilities between the 2 and 3 are probably due to a controller redesign. Though i really am no expert when it comes to disk controllers, and barely qualify as an amatuer with QBUS PDP-11?s in general! I have a suspected faulty, but never tested (water damaged) RQDX2 i have pulled from a MicroPDP-11/23 i have been restoring. I don?t know if it?s any use, but i?m sure i can let it go for a pittance as long as you?re located in the UK > On Jan 4, 2021, at 10:40 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Can someone check to see if a RQDX2 used the Western Digital chips to interface to MFM drives? Reason I'm asking is the MFM emulator can identify an RQDX3, and also a Pro/350 controller but this particular RD52 I have (which was verified by me to run Digital Mumps) is reading as: > > root at beaglebone:~/mfm# ./mfm_read -a > Board revision C detected > Found drive at select 3 > Returning to track 0 > Drive RPM 3525.4 > Matches count 36 for controller WD_1006 > Header CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff > Sector length 512 > Data CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff > Interleave mismatch previous entry 0, 9 was 1 now 0 > Selected head 8 found 0, last good head found 7 > Read errors trying to determine sector numbering, results may be in error > Number of heads 8 number of sectors 18 first sector 0 > Unable to determine interleave. Interleave value is not required > Drive supports buffered seeks (ST412) > Disk has recalibrated to track 0 > Stopping end of disk search due to recalibration > Number of cylinders 512, 37.7 MB > > Thanks! > CZ From Rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 5 05:56:05 2021 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 11:56:05 +0000 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> These links may help: http://decvax.50megs.com/doc/rqdx/rqdx.html http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-47834.html http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/diskcntl.php There?s definitely incompatabilities between the RQDX2 and RQDX3. They shouldn?t be assumed to be designed or act similarly, despite their names. The only similarity is that the RQDX3 can read the same floppy disks as the RQDX2 formats. From Rice43 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 5 06:06:45 2021 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:06:45 +0000 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the spam! Here?s some high-resolution pics i took of the 2 and 3 for your viewing pleasure: https://imgur.com/gallery/VJPW5YV From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 5 06:36:52 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:36:52 +0000 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 05/01/2021 11:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > I?m not sure where i read it, but i?m pretty sure the main ?brains? of the RQDX2 is a T-11 (PDP-11 FALCON) chip, and that does the negotiations between disk and system. I don?t know if it?s the same for the RQDX3, but i?d suspect not, as the incompatabilities between the 2 and 3 are probably due to a controller redesign. Though i really am no expert when it comes to disk controllers, and barely qualify as an amatuer with QBUS PDP-11?s in general! The RQDX3 definitely uses a T-11 (the controller User Guide says so). I don't know what the RQDX2 uses, although Wikipedia says that uses a T-11 too. They can use (at least) some of the same RDxx disks but the format is incompatible between the two AFAICR. So you could move an RD53 (say) from an RQDX2 to an RQDX3 (or vice versa) but you'd have to reformat it to use it: you could not read data written by an RQDX2 on an RQDX3 (again, AFAICR). I think that the (even older) RQDX1 was very similar to the RQDX2 but had a design fault that meant it had to be the last module on the bus (it failed to pass on the grant signal, I think). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 5 07:19:41 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 07:19:41 -0600 Subject: Keyboard storage, part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210105133447.AD6F927359@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:31 PM 1/4/2021, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >Next, I ordered the Uline keyboard boxes. I had to get 25 of them and they are not free Well, actually... neither are the "free" USPS boxes. *Someone* paid for them, and they're supposed to be used for shipping. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 5 08:06:31 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 07:06:31 -0700 Subject: personal history of personal computers = joke In-Reply-To: References: <202101042319.104NJxpE17301598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <60c93a4a-7b4a-75b0-ff57-d31e6c8b0714@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/4/2021 5:53 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Need to grease/lube it periodically > That is your problem there! You grease pigs not cats. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 5 08:20:07 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 09:20:07 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> > On Jan 5, 2021, at 6:56 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > > These links may help: > > http://decvax.50megs.com/doc/rqdx/rqdx.html > ... > There?s definitely incompatabilities between the RQDX2 and RQDX3. They shouldn?t be assumed to be designed or act similarly, despite their names. The only similarity is that the RQDX3 can read the same floppy disks as the RQDX2 formats. It's surprising that the RQDX3 wasn't made format-compatible with the older controllers. As for floppies, the RX50 format is the same for all PDP-11/VAX systems. Unlike hard drives, Pro floppies and RQDX3 floppies are identical. The geometry is handled in the host for the Pro and in the controller for the RQDX case, but it's the same geometry. And by the way, a PC floppy drive can handle RX50 floppies without any trouble, if you set it to the correct geometry -- in particular, you have to tell it there are 10 sectors per track rather than the PC default of 9 sectors. paul From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Jan 5 09:00:17 2021 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 07:00:17 -0800 Subject: Keyboard storage, part 2 In-Reply-To: <20210105133447.AD6F927359@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20210105133447.AD6F927359@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 5, 2021, at 05:34, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > ?At 08:31 PM 1/4/2021, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> Next, I ordered the Uline keyboard boxes. I had to get 25 of them and they are not free > > Well, actually... neither are the "free" USPS boxes. *Someone* paid for them, > and they're supposed to be used for shipping. Nice editing. What did I say the ones that I got will be used for? And I was recommending against them being used for keyboard storage. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jan 5 09:15:22 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 10:15:22 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> Message-ID: > It's surprising that the RQDX3 wasn't made format-compatible with the older controllers. It makes sense: The 1/2 used interleaving, which would have required extra code in the 3 to support. The 1/2 figured out the disk geometry based on ROM lookups, the 3 stored the disk geometry on the disk. That meant you didn't have to worry about ROMs and technically you could use pretty much any MFM disk with less than a certain number of heads and cylinders. What I realized mentally is that from the OS/driver/register level they are identical. So while the physical disk format is different, there should be no reason I can't hook up an RQDX2 to the DSM disk, fire up PDPGUI, select the drive as a DU: type, suck the data into a file over a serial connection, and boot it on SIMH without any issues. > As for floppies, the RX50 format is the same for all PDP-11/VAX systems. True, and I can download P/OS, dig out the PC with a 1.2mb floppy, and make the floppies on these Micro-RSX11M floppies I have in a box but man it's 30 floppies of *stuff*. Technically I see there is a disk writer utility for the Pro/POS somewhere so I *could* download that to the Pro, download the disk images, and copy them one at a time. Or maybe I could use this Dave G MFM emulator to emulate an RX50, then just present the disks over and over till install is done. Hm.... C From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 5 09:43:57 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 10:43:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: KL11 asynchronous serial line interface on eBay Message-ID: <20210105154357.146DB18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/284137678274 and: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KL11_asynchronous_serial_line_interface if you want to know what it is. The lot includes an M105 Address Selector and an M782 Interrupt Control (which you'd need to actually use it); the price for the group is quite reasonable. Noel From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jan 5 09:45:13 2021 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 15:45:13 +0000 Subject: KL11 asynchronous serial line interface on eBay In-Reply-To: <20210105154357.146DB18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa via cctalk's message of "Tue, 5 Jan 2021 10:43:57 -0500 (EST)") References: <20210105154357.146DB18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wh7nvv14m.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Always jarring to see KL... and then not 10 after! From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jan 5 10:00:35 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 09:00:35 -0700 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 7:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jan 5, 2021, at 6:56 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > These links may help: > > > > http://decvax.50megs.com/doc/rqdx/rqdx.html < > http://decvax.50megs.com/doc/rqdx/rqdx.html> > > ... > > There?s definitely incompatabilities between the RQDX2 and RQDX3. They > shouldn?t be assumed to be designed or act similarly, despite their names. > The only similarity is that the RQDX3 can read the same floppy disks as the > RQDX2 formats. > > It's surprising that the RQDX3 wasn't made format-compatible with the > older controllers. > > As for floppies, the RX50 format is the same for all PDP-11/VAX systems. > Unlike hard drives, Pro floppies and RQDX3 floppies are identical. The > geometry is handled in the host for the Pro and in the controller for the > RQDX case, but it's the same geometry. And by the way, a PC floppy drive > can handle RX50 floppies without any trouble, if you set it to the correct > geometry -- in particular, you have to tell it there are 10 sectors per > track rather than the PC default of 9 sectors. > Reading this is true. There are several drivers for this for DOS, linux and FreeBSD (though the latter may be out of tree). Writing on PC and reading on a Rainbow is possible, but it is unreliable because the 1.2M drives aren't that good at writing lower the lower density data rates. Fun fact: the 720k 3.5" floppies can handle 10 sectors per track just fine. You can boot a Rainbow off one of these even, but I didn't keep that setup for reasons I don't recall.. Warner > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 5 10:43:30 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 08:43:30 -0800 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/5/21 6:20 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > It's surprising that the RQDX3 wasn't made format-compatible with the older controllers. They built their own controller, with its own unique format, no doubt. The dx3 uses a SMC disk controller. I couldn't find maint drawings anywhere for the dx1 or dx2, that would be a good thing to be on the lookout for. Chris, you really should talk to Dave about getting that bitstream to him if he doesn't already have an example of the format so that it can be added to the MFM emulator. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 11:22:20 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:22:20 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 9:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > It's surprising that the RQDX3 wasn't made format-compatible with the older controllers. I think it's more of a case that DEC completely rolled their own controller for the RQDX1/2 and gave it and went with a standard (SMC) controller for the KA410 (uVAX 2000) and the RQDX3. I have no specific knowledge of their process, but it seems likely that they had two engineering goals around the same time: make a lunchbox VAX and create the follow-on hard disk controller for Qbus MicroVAXen that could support larger disks than the RQDX2, and that one effort likely borrowed from the other (why reinvent two wheels at once?). The fact that you had to toss out your old RQDX2 to put a larger disk in the machine was already a given so there was no need to support a backwards-compatible on-disk format. I'm just happy that the KA410 and RQDX3 have compatible formats. That's been handy over the years. I do have one uVAX I with an RQDX1 (that I should probably see about imaging, but as mentioned, it's easy enough to use vtserver - just pull the KA610 processor and install a KDF11 or KDJ11 board (and a grant card) at the top. -ethan From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 11:32:42 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:32:42 +0100 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used the Davids MFM emulator to emulate an RQDX2 formatted disk a few years ago. I tested both with a RQDX1 and RQDX2. Both were tested with 10.0D firmware. I know that we had some initial problems which David fixed quickly. As far as I remember I did read disks as well. But I have no traces of these read disks since the flash of the Beaglebone got erased. One thing to keep in mind with RQDX1 and RQDX2 is that they are not format compatible among certain versions. Maybe the firmware that wrote the disk is older and thus it cannot be read by the mfm emulator since it was adapted to 10.0D? /Mattis Den m?n 4 jan. 2021 kl 23:40 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Can someone check to see if a RQDX2 used the Western Digital chips to > interface to MFM drives? Reason I'm asking is the MFM emulator can > identify an RQDX3, and also a Pro/350 controller but this particular > RD52 I have (which was verified by me to run Digital Mumps) is reading as: > > root at beaglebone:~/mfm# ./mfm_read -a > Board revision C detected > Found drive at select 3 > Returning to track 0 > Drive RPM 3525.4 > Matches count 36 for controller WD_1006 > Header CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff > Sector length 512 > Data CRC: Polynomial 0x1021 length 16 initial value 0xffff > Interleave mismatch previous entry 0, 9 was 1 now 0 > Selected head 8 found 0, last good head found 7 > Read errors trying to determine sector numbering, results may be in error > Number of heads 8 number of sectors 18 first sector 0 > Unable to determine interleave. Interleave value is not required > Drive supports buffered seeks (ST412) > Disk has recalibrated to track 0 > Stopping end of disk search due to recalibration > Number of cylinders 512, 37.7 MB > > Thanks! > CZ > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 5 11:36:06 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:36:06 -0500 Subject: Dec RQDX: What kind of chips on it? In-Reply-To: References: <8FA8C373-CE25-4B6D-ADFC-97472921676B@btinternet.com> <324E0B99-9A8B-4F0E-9477-39D829BFA963@btinternet.com> <0F03024B-EDCF-4E7F-83A0-CE8F2A5A7B4D@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 5, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 7:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > ... >> As for floppies, the RX50 format is the same for all PDP-11/VAX systems. Unlike hard drives, Pro floppies and RQDX3 floppies are identical. The geometry is handled in the host for the Pro and in the controller for the RQDX case, but it's the same geometry. And by the way, a PC floppy drive can handle RX50 floppies without any trouble, if you set it to the correct geometry -- in particular, you have to tell it there are 10 sectors per track rather than the PC default of 9 sectors. >> > Reading this is true. There are several drivers for this for DOS, linux and FreeBSD (though the latter may be out of tree). Writing on PC and reading on a Rainbow is possible, but it is unreliable because the 1.2M drives aren't that good at writing lower the lower density data rates. I don't know about FreeBSD, but you don't need special drivers on DOS or Linux. In DOS, it's just some int 13 magic. In Linux, it's an ioctl to set the floppy layout. I did this a long time ago for my "flx" utility (RSTS file access on a PC). The initial version was for DOS, and that code should still work. I added Linux support later. There are two versions of this code: one in C (flx 2.6) for DOS and Linux; that one on Linux needs to have the layout set via a Linux utility first. The other is flx 3.0 which is written in Python; it handles everything directly. That version also includes a separate utility that just does interleave or de-interleave of 800 block disks and container files, so you can create a SIMH compatible disk image from a floppy, or a Xhomer interleaved layout image from a regular (logical order) image. That simply uses the disk access code from FLX with the file system pieces left out, so it isn't specific to RSTS. In my experience (admittedly only on a few PCs I have had that include a 5.25 inch floppy drive) both reading and writing work with no trouble at all. For my Pro development I've always used floppies as the transfer medium, which means creating bootable RSTS disks on the PC. Works fine. paul From poc at pocnet.net Tue Jan 5 11:41:30 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:41:30 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany Message-ID: Hello, to fellow readers in Germany and surrounding areas: HUGE 9406-F2, 300?, pickup in Heidelberg, Germany. Might be a Multiprocessor-Machine. https://cgi.ebay.de/174577267021 I?m not related to the seller. Have seen this by chance. I requested more photos to see what machine it is. Would be very sad if it will be scrapped. I can forward the additional photos as email on request. :wq! PoC From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 11:51:42 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:51:42 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: <20210102183435.GA1253701@hugin3> References: <20210102183435.GA1253701@hugin3> Message-ID: Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 19:34 skrev David Gesswein via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org>: > This is my info on RD53 sticking heads. Your symtoms match what I have seen > with this drive. > > If the heads are stuck to the rubber bumper the drive will spin back down > when it finds the heads won't move. It will also spin down if it can't > switch from the coarse speed control loop to using the head servo signal. > There is a narrow band where the heads are parked with the proper signal. > When the rubber has deteriorated the heads are no longer over it. Adding > shims > can fix that. I used a tent with RK05 filter but others have opened drives > in reasonably clean locations sucessfully. Best to keep the pets away. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/rd53.shtml > > Shim picture. > http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/pics/lock.shtml?small Thanks. Good advice and good prictures! Need to find some material that makes a good shim then. It will be very interesting if this solves the problem. I wonder if the other symptom I saw where the drive kept spinning while the head was moving back and forth also is related to the first? It didn't sound like full seeks but rather quite short. The drive kept doing this for maybe one minute and then spun down. /Mattis > > > > On Sat, Jan 02, 2021 at 02:05:11PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 11:48 skrev Rob Jarratt < > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > >: > > > > > When that has happened to MFM disks of mine it has been because for one > > > reason or another the heads have not moved and found track 0. Why they > > > aren't moving could be more than one reason. They could be stuck, or > there > > > could be some other problem that is preventing them getting the power > > > needed to move. > > > > > > > Did you solve the problem? How? > > > > I have heard that Micropolis 1325 is prone to have a problem with a > rubber > > bumper that sticks to the head mechanism. Maybe it is the same for this > > Micropois drive? What resolutions are there to this type of problem? > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis > Lind > > > via > > > > cctalk > > > > Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > > > > > > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with > now. > > > > > > > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis > 1303. > > > It spins > > > > up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately > > > spins > > > > down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would > > > > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > > > > > > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your > > > thoughts? > > > > Are the heads sticking? > > > > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly > up to > > > > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 12:57:53 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 14:57:53 -0400 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fbcde7a-35c1-a39e-6b86-1a4056d0104f@gmail.com> That looks like it may be a 730 model complete with a twinax terminal for a console.? One thing that seem to be missing is the electronic key that fits into the odd shaped hole in the operator panel. Paul. On 2021-01-05 1:41 p.m., Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > to fellow readers in Germany and surrounding areas: > > HUGE 9406-F2, 300?, pickup in Heidelberg, Germany. Might be a Multiprocessor-Machine. > > https://cgi.ebay.de/174577267021 > > I?m not related to the seller. Have seen this by chance. > > I requested more photos to see what machine it is. Would be very sad if it will be scrapped. I can forward the additional photos as email on request. > > :wq! PoC > From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Jan 5 14:53:53 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 21:53:53 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Jan 05, 2021 at 06:41:30PM +0100, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > to fellow readers in Germany and surrounding areas: > > HUGE 9406-F2, 300?, pickup in Heidelberg, Germany. Might be a > Multiprocessor-Machine. > > https://cgi.ebay.de/174577267021 > > I?m not related to the seller. Have seen this by chance. > > I requested more photos to see what machine it is. Would be very sad > if it will be scrapped. I can forward the additional photos as email > on request. > > :wq! PoC It says "Als Ersatzteil / defekt", which to my nose smells like "parts donor". Whoever would like to pick it, should verify this. I might be wrong. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Jan 5 15:02:02 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 22:02:02 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> Well, The whole translation is more on the lines that it hasn't been started since 3 years and they can't be bothered to check if it still works with the mains not plugged since then. Thus the risk to turn it on is on the buyer. This said, without the license codes is going to be a big decorative object, sort of way... so if someone is interested, he should make sure that they have still the licenses to give alongside. Another small thing... I helped carrying that model up into our office, years ago... good luck to whoever purchases it because it's some serious weight -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 9:54 PM To: Patrik Schindler via cctalk Subject: Re: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany On Tue, Jan 05, 2021 at 06:41:30PM +0100, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > to fellow readers in Germany and surrounding areas: > > HUGE 9406-F2, 300?, pickup in Heidelberg, Germany. Might be a > Multiprocessor-Machine. > > https://cgi.ebay.de/174577267021 > > I?m not related to the seller. Have seen this by chance. > > I requested more photos to see what machine it is. Would be very sad > if it will be scrapped. I can forward the additional photos as email > on request. > > :wq! PoC It says "Als Ersatzteil / defekt", which to my nose smells like "parts donor". Whoever would like to pick it, should verify this. I might be wrong. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From poc at pocnet.net Tue Jan 5 15:02:12 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 22:02:12 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <081EAE0A-4D82-4BF7-9634-0B0750C95D8B@pocnet.net> Hello Tomasz, Am 05.01.2021 um 21:53 schrieb Tomasz Rola via cctalk : > It says "Als Ersatzteil / defekt", which to my nose smells like "parts > donor". Whoever would like to pick it, should verify this. I might be > wrong. It?s advertised as that because it?s ?three years ago since the last time it has been running flawless?. @Paul: This makes me assume this key is still available. Or not needed. I have no personal experience with machines featuring a Keylock. :wq! PoC From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 15:05:38 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 17:05:38 -0400 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <081EAE0A-4D82-4BF7-9634-0B0750C95D8B@pocnet.net> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <081EAE0A-4D82-4BF7-9634-0B0750C95D8B@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <00e32c25-51be-ef44-acec-ca1b811c25f1@gmail.com> On 2021-01-05 5:02 p.m., Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > Hello Tomasz, > > Am 05.01.2021 um 21:53 schrieb Tomasz Rola via cctalk : > >> It says "Als Ersatzteil / defekt", which to my nose smells like "parts >> donor". Whoever would like to pick it, should verify this. I might be >> wrong. > It?s advertised as that because it?s ?three years ago since the last time it has been running flawless?. > > @Paul: This makes me assume this key is still available. Or not needed. I have no personal experience with machines featuring a Keylock. > > :wq! PoC > I think you need the key to do things like a D IPL but I don't recall exactly it has been 25 years since I had a lot of hands on with an AS/400. Paul. From poc at pocnet.net Tue Jan 5 15:22:48 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 22:22:48 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> Message-ID: <24324FF9-F3EA-41CA-B524-3F661918B92F@pocnet.net> Hello, Am 05.01.2021 um 22:02 schrieb mazzinia--- via cctalk : > The whole translation is more on the lines that it hasn't been started since 3 years and they can't be bothered to check if it still works with the mains not plugged since then. Thus the risk to turn it on is on the buyer. I can confirm. > This said, without the license codes is going to be a big decorative object, sort of way... so if someone is interested, he should make sure that they have still the licenses to give alongside. Without asking, we don?t know. The machine is advertised as has been running before, and 10 disks are included. The seller was writing me he has no idea about AS/400, and the guy who serviced it is no longer available. So I guess, nothing has been deleted so far. Even if there are no paper based lickeys to be obtained, they are still in the system. > Another small thing... I helped carrying that model up into our office, years ago... good luck to whoever purchases it because it's some serious weight I guess, 120 kg or more. A lot of steel. :wq! PoC From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Jan 5 15:45:52 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 22:45:52 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Jan 05, 2021 at 10:02:02PM +0100, mazzinia at tin.it wrote: > Well, > > The whole translation is more on the lines that it hasn't been > started since 3 years and they can't be bothered to check if it > still works with the mains not plugged since then. Thus the risk to > turn it on is on the buyer. Yep. I am used to this kind of description. I sometimes see it on certain Polish auctioning site. The seller is honest - they say it openly that they cannot take on the risk. "We also sell power supply to this laptop on separate auction but whatever stopped us from plugging one into another and into the wall"... I guess it is more complicated to check mainframe's correct operation. And I would want a very specific info about what is in the box. I am not sure, for example, if hard drives for it can be easily bought. Then again, if it worked perfectly and did not broke, there is good chance it might work for a long time. At least this is what older mainframes did (from what I have read). [...] > Another small thing... I helped carrying that model up into our > office, years ago... good luck to whoever purchases it because it's > some serious weight I would also make sure it could be powered on without blowing the fuses out of the wall... Ok, after consulting IBM page [ https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/printableversion.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_sm/3/872/ENUS9406-_h03/index.html ] - it says, 300~~700 watts, depending on configuration. Last but not least, my limited understanding is, the owner would need either control panel or operation console (looks like a laptop... perhaps?) and cables to connect them into the black refrigerator. Without enabling js for this page I cannot see what is pictured on very small photos. I suppose it will not boot (ipl) without panel/console. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Jan 5 16:33:08 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 23:33:08 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> These things are tanks, sort of... so technically troubles tend to be relative. The hard disks are factory initialized with a specific number of sectors... they are scsi, and you cannot use normal scsi disks there. Also you must not reformat these hdd elsewhere, or you end messing them up... the only way to initialize them for an as/400 is with an ibm tool that has never been released. This said, that auction has the terminal needed to operate it ( as admin ) included, it sits on top. (and yes, you can otherwise use the small panel on the front to ipl it up, and shut it down) You can add more twinax terminals ( the cables are included ), or connect to a twinax card in a pc ( isa/pci , depends what you find ) and ibm client access... or client access on lan. In any case you need that ( or a ) twinax terminal (emulator card works) for maintenance/admin duties -----Original Message----- From: Tomasz Rola Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 10:46 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: mazzinia at tin.it Subject: Re: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany On Tue, Jan 05, 2021 at 10:02:02PM +0100, mazzinia at tin.it wrote: > Well, > > The whole translation is more on the lines that it hasn't been started > since 3 years and they can't be bothered to check if it still works > with the mains not plugged since then. Thus the risk to turn it on is > on the buyer. Yep. I am used to this kind of description. I sometimes see it on certain Polish auctioning site. The seller is honest - they say it openly that they cannot take on the risk. "We also sell power supply to this laptop on separate auction but whatever stopped us from plugging one into another and into the wall"... I guess it is more complicated to check mainframe's correct operation. And I would want a very specific info about what is in the box. I am not sure, for example, if hard drives for it can be easily bought. Then again, if it worked perfectly and did not broke, there is good chance it might work for a long time. At least this is what older mainframes did (from what I have read). [...] > Another small thing... I helped carrying that model up into our > office, years ago... good luck to whoever purchases it because it's > some serious weight I would also make sure it could be powered on without blowing the fuses out of the wall... Ok, after consulting IBM page [ https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/printableversion.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/re p_sm/3/872/ENUS9406-_h03/index.html ] - it says, 300~~700 watts, depending on configuration. Last but not least, my limited understanding is, the owner would need either control panel or operation console (looks like a laptop... perhaps?) and cables to connect them into the black refrigerator. Without enabling js for this page I cannot see what is pictured on very small photos. I suppose it will not boot (ipl) without panel/console. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From poc at pocnet.net Tue Jan 5 17:10:56 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 00:10:56 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> Message-ID: Hello, Am 05.01.2021 um 23:33 schrieb mazzinia--- via cctalk : > The hard disks are factory initialized with a specific number of sectors... > they are scsi, and you cannot use normal scsi disks there. Yap. See here for details (and further reading). https://try-as400.pocnet.net/wiki/Ordinary_Harddisks_on_the_AS/400 > the only way to initialize them for an as/400 is with an ibm tool that has never been released. Do you have experience with this? Because, you certainly can format a disk in the ?BIOS? (Dedicated Service Tools) of a machine. And I suppose that doing this is doing the right thing. > and yes, you can otherwise use the small panel on the front to ipl it up, and shut it down I know no safe way to initiate a proper shutdown from the panel. Do you have more information on that? > You can add more twinax terminals ( the cables are included ), or connect to > a twinax card in a pc ( isa/pci , depends what you find ) and ibm client > access... or client access on lan. > In any case you need that ( or a ) twinax terminal (emulator card works) for > maintenance/admin duties I guess it?s included, eventhough not mentioned in the text. And I fully agree, Console is important to have. :wq! PoC From doug at doughq.com Tue Jan 5 17:24:55 2021 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:24:55 +1100 Subject: KL11 asynchronous serial line interface on eBay In-Reply-To: <7wh7nvv14m.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20210105154357.146DB18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wh7nvv14m.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Well, That went quickly. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 02:45, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Always jarring to see KL... and then not 10 after! > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Jan 5 17:41:10 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:41:10 -0500 Subject: KL11 asynchronous serial line interface on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20210105154357.146DB18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wh7nvv14m.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <1e5504cc-9fef-d64d-886b-6f8526a7c9f3@alembic.crystel.com> I could not think of a reason to pick it up. So I didn't. I feel good about this. C On 1/5/2021 6:24 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Well, > > That went quickly. > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for > your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which > case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal > liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally > sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G > > > > > On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 02:45, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Always jarring to see KL... and then not 10 after! >> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 17:53:53 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:53:53 -0500 Subject: KL11 asynchronous serial line interface on eBay In-Reply-To: <1e5504cc-9fef-d64d-886b-6f8526a7c9f3@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20210105154357.146DB18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wh7nvv14m.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1e5504cc-9fef-d64d-886b-6f8526a7c9f3@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 6:41 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I could not think of a reason to pick it up. So I didn't. I feel good > about this. I have a PDP-11/20 but this item was sold before I spotted the e-mail. -ethan From poc at pocnet.net Tue Jan 5 17:57:42 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 00:57:42 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: Hello Tomasz, Am 05.01.2021 um 22:45 schrieb Tomasz Rola via cctalk : > I guess it is more complicated to check mainframe's correct operation. If you?re new to the platform, I agree. :-) Hint: If you say mainframe to an AS/400 and a mainframe guy is nearby, duck and cover. ;-) AS/400s were part of the IBM midrange platforms. Having played with the Hercules Mainframe Emulator, and the last OS that can legally being run (MVS 3.8j), I?d say, the AS/4000 platform borrowed a good deal of good concepts from the mainframe platform. Compatibility with established mainframe personnel, and already running mainframe software wasn?t necessary. This makes the platform a really nice entry into the big iron world. Btw., you can download a Turnkey-System with MVS for your own learning experience here: http://wotho.ethz.ch/tk4-/ Add a 3270 emulator and you?re ready to go. The biggest pain is to decide where to begin, because everything seems to be different and need to be learned. This is true for OS/400, also. ;-) > And I would want a very specific info about what is in the box. I am not sure, for example, if hard drives for it can be easily bought. This would be hard to know, because the seller states, he has no clue about the platform. He can look at the labels on the disks, most likely stating being type 6607, which equals to a 4GB drive. The only identifiable card is a 2838 10/100M Ethernet NIC, seen on the extra photos the seller sent me (but unfortunately did not put online). The hard disks still can be bought in used condition. In the US, they can be obtained more easily than in Europe. And they are pretty reliable also. For the rest of information, the machine needs to be powered and IPL?d. Most likely, a password reset needs to be done, and then someone skilled could easily find out about what?s inside. I doubt that the seller is willing to make such an effort for the given price. I guess he?s pretty much aware that transportation is what really costs money. Not the machine itself. > Then again, if it worked perfectly and did not broke, there is good chance it might work for a long time. At least this is what older mainframes did (from what I have read). The reliability is indeed pretty good. > I would also make sure it could be powered on without blowing the fuses out of the wall... On the label of the second last photo, there?s the machine type written (9406-F2), and the maximum power rating: 2400W. Far from blowing a fuse. But hurtful to pay when running 24/7. At least here in Germany. Searching, and having a look into the most likely fitting System Builder Manual (http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redpapers/pdfs/redp0542.pdf), I can?t find a model F2, though. Hmm. > Ok, after consulting IBM page [https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/printableversion.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_sm/3/872/ENUS9406-_h03/index.html > ] - it says, 300~~700 watts, depending on configuration. The page you linked is for a model 170. Much smaller. > Last but not least, my limited understanding is, the owner would need either control panel or operation console (looks like a laptop... perhaps?) You?re possibly talking about a true mainframe's so called ?service element?, which equals to a ThinkPad running OS/2 and a proprietary setup software for a long time. I don?t know if current SE?s run Linux meanwhile. After the demise of Twinax Terminals, IBM introduced other ways of console handling. For AS/400?s (their successors, to be precise) this equals a built-service processor with a LAN port. IBM offers a so called Hardware Management Console (today even compatible with Vmware ESXi) to manage many of these machines. And have console access, of course. > I suppose it will not boot (ipl) without panel/console. You suppose wrong. The machines are usually set up to IPL in ?normal mode?. You plug them into the power outlet(s), press the square, white power button on the front and just wait between nearly 10 Minutes or much more, depending on a lot of factors. For a normal mode IBM, Console is not needed, and the panel itself is built-in anyway. It?s mainly used to set the IPL mode, force console to be of a certain type and surely a lot of undocumented things. The panel displays hex numbers to show the IPL progress. If finished, most likely ?01 B N? is displayed. (Function 01 = Display IPL mode, B = IPL secondary, patched/updated ?kernel?, N = Boot normal, unattended). :wq! PoC From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Jan 5 19:04:03 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 02:04:03 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <055d01d6e3c7$d3499420$79dcbc60$@tin.it> Yeh, I know for a fact you cannot setup Hdds for an as/400 unless with the ibm factory tool. ( saw people using AS for a lot of years professionally discuss this ) You had an as400, you had to buy the spares hdds sold by ibm and ibm only About the panel ... let me see... Press 1 time "arrow up" to get 02 on the display Press "insert" > panel will show "02 BN" Press 4 times "arrow up" so that it changes to "02 BM" Press 2 times the white power on button, to start the shutdown/poweroff phase -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Patrik Schindler via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 12:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany Hello, Am 05.01.2021 um 23:33 schrieb mazzinia--- via cctalk : > The hard disks are factory initialized with a specific number of sectors... > they are scsi, and you cannot use normal scsi disks there. Yap. See here for details (and further reading). https://try-as400.pocnet.net/wiki/Ordinary_Harddisks_on_the_AS/400 > the only way to initialize them for an as/400 is with an ibm tool that has never been released. Do you have experience with this? Because, you certainly can format a disk in the ?BIOS? (Dedicated Service Tools) of a machine. And I suppose that doing this is doing the right thing. > and yes, you can otherwise use the small panel on the front to ipl it > up, and shut it down I know no safe way to initiate a proper shutdown from the panel. Do you have more information on that? > You can add more twinax terminals ( the cables are included ), or > connect to a twinax card in a pc ( isa/pci , depends what you find ) > and ibm client access... or client access on lan. > In any case you need that ( or a ) twinax terminal (emulator card > works) for maintenance/admin duties I guess it?s included, eventhough not mentioned in the text. And I fully agree, Console is important to have. :wq! PoC From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Jan 5 20:35:24 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 03:35:24 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20210106023524.GC18124@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Jan 06, 2021 at 12:57:42AM +0100, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > Hello Tomasz, Ahoy, > Am 05.01.2021 um 22:45 schrieb Tomasz Rola via cctalk : > > > I guess it is more complicated to check mainframe's correct operation. > > If you?re new to the platform, I agree. :-) To be frank, I am "new" to many things out there. Learning requires time and I have to spend time on few other subjects, so not so much is left for hobbies. I would describe myself as "on-off newbie", a much worse kind than regular newbie :-) , because at times I want to learn everything and then I do not want to learn anything. The only real result from this, I am subscribed to quite a few mailing lists where I keep stepping on other people's nerves. Also, from time to time, trying to help. Always trying to learn. Perhaps this is my real hobby. I was also "on-off game player". There are games I started in 1995 or 1994 and did not finish yet (ok, but I am not a total looser, I finished "Centurion", it was strategy game for DOS and Amiga... and perhaps I also finished "Panzer General", another strategy but I am really not sure, if it happened it was so many years ago). I think I might link two hobbies, if I can find some old archives. Even worse, there are games I bought pre-2000 and had not even unpacked from their boxes. Shit, there are movies I bought on dvd and did not watch yet. I think I am truly lousy hobbist. At least when I start reading a book, I finish it. Always. > Hint: If you say mainframe to an AS/400 and a mainframe guy is > nearby, duck and cover. ;-) AS/400s were part of the IBM midrange > platforms. All right, I will watch my mouth... I do not want to find myself under the raised floor. > Having played with the Hercules Mainframe Emulator, and the last OS > that can legally being run (MVS 3.8j), I?d say, the AS/4000 platform > borrowed a good deal of good concepts from the mainframe > platform. Compatibility with established mainframe personnel, and > already running mainframe software wasn?t necessary. This makes the > platform a really nice entry into the big iron world. > > Btw., you can download a Turnkey-System with MVS for your own > learning experience here: http://wotho.ethz.ch/tk4-/ Bookmarked, thanks. Your wiki about as/400, bookmarked too. > Add a 3270 emulator and you?re ready to go. The biggest pain is to > decide where to begin, because everything seems to be different and > need to be learned. This is true for OS/400, also. ;-) Yes indeed, if I had to describe IBM's world in one word, the word would be "different". I, once in the past, dabbled a bit with Hercules. Even tried to heroically (i.e. without reading manuals) install one of the turnkeys (possibly TK3 by Volker Bandke). I came upon some problems with keyboard mapping and then decided to have a look into the DEC world. I have some intro book about mainframes stuffed on my e-book reader, maybe I will try again. Some day. There is, or was, a very interesting effort to create a modern upgrade to S360, called S380 (and there are, or were, upgraded versions of OS and MVS). There was also a dedicated group on yahoo, which sunk with yahoo, I believe. It was great idea, because S360 and related software all have fallen into public domain, free to tinker with. [...] > > I would also make sure it could be powered on without blowing the > > fuses out of the wall... > > On the label of the second last photo, there?s the machine type > written (9406-F2), and the maximum power rating: 2400W. Far from > blowing a fuse. But hurtful to pay when running 24/7. At least here > in Germany. Ok, so it is not a fridge. It is a kitchen. Burning it 24/7, well, maybe not. Energy costs are going up everywhere. Actually, it is also too heavy for me... > Searching, and having a look into the most likely fitting System > Builder Manual > (http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redpapers/pdfs/redp0542.pdf), I can?t > find a model F2, though. Hmm. It so happens that I am subscribed (surprise surprise) to mailing group for mainfraimers and they regularly hang dogs on IBM for wiping whole sections of old documentation off the redbooks site. Whatever one finds there, be thankful and download. [...] > > Last but not least, my limited understanding is, the owner would need either control panel or operation console (looks like a laptop... perhaps?) > > You?re possibly talking about a true mainframe's so called ?service > element?, which equals to a ThinkPad running OS/2 and a proprietary > setup software for a long time. I don?t know if current SE?s run > Linux meanwhile. I guess I am talking about this one :-). > After the demise of Twinax Terminals, IBM introduced other ways of > console handling. For AS/400?s (their successors, to be precise) > this equals a built-service processor with a LAN port. IBM offers a > so called Hardware Management Console (today even compatible with > Vmware ESXi) to manage many of these machines. And have console > access, of course. > > > I suppose it will not boot (ipl) without panel/console. > > You suppose wrong. The machines are usually set up to IPL in ?normal > mode?. You plug them into the power outlet(s), press the square, > white power button on the front and just wait between nearly 10 > Minutes or much more, depending on a lot of factors. For a normal > mode IBM, Console is not needed, and the panel itself is built-in > anyway. It?s mainly used to set the IPL mode, force console to be of > a certain type and surely a lot of undocumented things. The panel > displays hex numbers to show the IPL progress. If finished, most > likely ?01 B N? is displayed. (Function 01 = Display IPL mode, B = > IPL secondary, patched/updated ?kernel?, N = Boot normal, > unattended). That was interesting thing to learn. Thanks again. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 5 15:53:38 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 21:53:38 -0000 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: <20210102183435.GA1253701@hugin3> Message-ID: <05a301d6e3ad$3eeac930$bcc05b90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via > cctech > Sent: 05 January 2021 17:52 > To: David Gesswein ; General Discussion: On-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 19:34 skrev David Gesswein via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org>: > > > This is my info on RD53 sticking heads. Your symtoms match what I have > > seen with this drive. > > > > If the heads are stuck to the rubber bumper the drive will spin back > > down when it finds the heads won't move. It will also spin down if it > > can't switch from the coarse speed control loop to using the head servo > signal. > > There is a narrow band where the heads are parked with the proper signal. > > When the rubber has deteriorated the heads are no longer over it. > > Adding shims can fix that. I used a tent with RK05 filter but others > > have opened drives in reasonably clean locations sucessfully. Best to > > keep the pets away. > > > > http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/rd53.shtml > > > > Shim picture. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/pics/lock.shtml?small > > > > Thanks. Good advice and good prictures! Need to find some material that > makes a good shim then. I just used a sliver of paper as a shim. It is probably not ideal, but it worked for me. > It will be very interesting if this solves the problem. > I wonder if the other symptom I saw where the drive kept spinning while the > head was moving back and forth also is related to the first? It didn't sound > like full seeks but rather quite short. The drive kept doing this for maybe one > minute and then spun down. > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 02, 2021 at 02:05:11PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 11:48 skrev Rob Jarratt < > > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > >: > > > > > > > When that has happened to MFM disks of mine it has been because > > > > for one reason or another the heads have not moved and found track > > > > 0. Why they aren't moving could be more than one reason. They > > > > could be stuck, or > > there > > > > could be some other problem that is preventing them getting the > > > > power needed to move. > > > > > > > > > > Did you solve the problem? How? > > > > > > I have heard that Micropolis 1325 is prone to have a problem with a > > rubber > > > bumper that sticks to the head mechanism. Maybe it is the same for > > > this Micropois drive? What resolutions are there to this type of problem? > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis > > Lind > > > > via > > > > > cctalk > > > > > Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 > > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > > > Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > > > > > > > > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working > > > > > with > > now. > > > > > > > > > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a > > > > > Micropolis > > 1303. > > > > It spins > > > > > up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it > > > > > immediately > > > > spins > > > > > down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads > > > > > would recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > > > > > > > > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are > > > > > your > > > > thoughts? > > > > > Are the heads sticking? > > > > > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not > > > > > properly > > up to > > > > > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Jan 6 02:30:47 2021 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 08:30:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> If anybody of you has been looking for a Bendix System or a CDC 160 console and has deep pockets: That's your opportunity ;) ebay numbers 203239156838 and 203239181341 Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw the listings - can't believe that such cool systems are still stored in some warehouses in the U.S. for business purposes ... Cheers, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 02:46:59 2021 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 02:46:59 -0600 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: how come when ever people post these numbers can never find the item On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 2:30 AM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > If anybody of you has been looking for a Bendix System or a CDC 160 > console and has deep pockets: That's your opportunity ;) > ebay numbers 203239156838 and 203239181341 > Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw the listings - can't believe that > such cool systems are still stored in some warehouses in the U.S. for > business purposes ... > > Cheers, > Pierre > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.digitalheritage.de > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 02:53:10 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 08:53:10 -0000 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20d001d6e409$5c1dbe20$14593a60$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > via cctalk > Sent: 06 January 2021 08:47 > To: P Gebhardt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay > > how come when ever people post these numbers can never find the item Don't put them in the search box just go http://www.ebay.co,uk/itm/ so for these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203239181341 & https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203239156838 usually works. You should be able to use any country specific e-bay, the numbers are global. Dave > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 2:30 AM P Gebhardt via cctalk > > wrote: > > > If anybody of you has been looking for a Bendix System or a CDC 160 > > console and has deep pockets: That's your opportunity ;) ebay numbers > > 203239156838 and 203239181341 Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw > > the listings - can't believe that such cool systems are still stored > > in some warehouses in the U.S. for business purposes ... > > > > Cheers, > > Pierre > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------- > > http://www.digitalheritage.de > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 03:12:57 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 09:12:57 +0000 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On 6 Jan 2021, at 08:46, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > how come when ever people post these numbers can never find the item > http://ebay.com/itm/203239156838 http://ebay .com/itm/203239181341 >> ebay numbers 203239156838 and 203239181341 >> Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw the listings - can't believe that >> such cool systems are still stored in some warehouses in the U.S. for >> business purposes ... >> >> Cheers, >> Pierre >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://www.digitalheritage.de >> -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From poc at pocnet.net Wed Jan 6 06:27:12 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:27:12 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <055d01d6e3c7$d3499420$79dcbc60$@tin.it> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> <055d01d6e3c7$d3499420$79dcbc60$@tin.it> Message-ID: <5310B96A-B654-4B72-855E-E2AA9BBD455A@pocnet.net> Hello, Am 06.01.2021 um 02:04 schrieb mazzinia at tin.it: > Yeh, I know for a fact you cannot setup Hdds for an as/400 unless with the ibm factory tool. ( saw people using AS for a lot of years professionally discuss this ) > You had an as400, you had to buy the spares hdds sold by ibm and ibm only Yes, I know about that and can confirm. What I understood from your last posting is that once you reformat an AS/400 disk for 512 Bytes per sector as used by commodity hardware, you can?t use it again on AS/400, even by reformatting. > About the panel ... let me see... > > Press 1 time "arrow up" to get 02 on the display > Press "insert" > panel will show "02 BN" > Press 4 times "arrow up" so that it changes to "02 BM" > Press 2 times the white power on button, to start the shutdown/poweroff phase This is *not* an orderly shutdown, but some kind of emergency shutdown procedure to prevent excess damage through RAM content not yet flushed to disk. A bit like doing a ?sync? and immediate power off on Unix/Linux. :wq! PoC From mazzinia at tin.it Wed Jan 6 06:37:54 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:37:54 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <5310B96A-B654-4B72-855E-E2AA9BBD455A@pocnet.net> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> <055d01d6e3c7$d3499420$79dcbc60$@tin.it> <5310B96A-B654-4B72-855E-E2AA9BBD455A@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <01f001d6e428$c1b46c60$451d4520$@tin.it> > Yes, I know about that and can confirm. What I understood from your last posting is that once you reformat an AS/400 disk for 512 Bytes per sector as used by commodity hardware, you can?t use it again on AS/400, even by reformatting. Yes, that's correct And I doubt that there's an orderly shutdown from the panel... I remember being told of only one procedure, but it would not cause damages/issues of sort. In any case we're speaking about something that was meant to be turned on and never turned off unless some maintenance or a big issue. For scheduled maintenance, the qsecofr / admin account could issue a pwrdwnsys , and for a catastrophe where the terminal is not accessible ... the panel does its job -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Patrik Schindler via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 1:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany Hello, Am 06.01.2021 um 02:04 schrieb mazzinia at tin.it: > Yeh, I know for a fact you cannot setup Hdds for an as/400 unless with > the ibm factory tool. ( saw people using AS for a lot of years > professionally discuss this ) You had an as400, you had to buy the > spares hdds sold by ibm and ibm only Yes, I know about that and can confirm. What I understood from your last posting is that once you reformat an AS/400 disk for 512 Bytes per sector as used by commodity hardware, you can?t use it again on AS/400, even by reformatting. > About the panel ... let me see... > > Press 1 time "arrow up" to get 02 on the display Press "insert" > > panel will show "02 BN" > Press 4 times "arrow up" so that it changes to "02 BM" > Press 2 times the white power on button, to start the > shutdown/poweroff phase This is *not* an orderly shutdown, but some kind of emergency shutdown procedure to prevent excess damage through RAM content not yet flushed to disk. A bit like doing a ?sync? and immediate power off on Unix/Linux. :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Wed Jan 6 07:01:17 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 14:01:17 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <20210106023524.GC18124@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <20210106023524.GC18124@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: Hello Tomasz, allow me to send ahead, that it?s a pleasure to have a conversation going on with you. Am 06.01.2021 um 03:35 schrieb Tomasz Rola via cctalk : >> If you?re new to the platform, I agree. :-) > To be frank, I am "new" to many things out there. I?m sorry for being ambiguous. With ?If you?, I meant ?If somebody?. I should have written like that. > Always trying to learn. Perhaps this is my real hobby. I don?t see what?s wrong about that. Keep learning. That?s what my Grandpa said to me when I was a child. :-) > I think I am truly lousy hobbist. Don't worry too much. I have a lot of games in my Steam Library ?just in case?, and because there once was a huge discount in price. A lot of them, I never installed so far. Doing something from begin to end requires patience and ongoing motivation. And a certain curiosity level. There are times when I cannot come up with enough of that, and then I feel like what you describe. > I do not want to find myself under the raised floor. Depends on the raised floor. I saw one DC in Karlsruhe/Germany where it?s raised one meter. The only drawback is the ongoing storm and chill. ;-) > Yes indeed, if I had to describe IBM's world in one word, the word would be "different?. Exactly. But most people struggle to realize that IBM was a first in many things. Since IBM computing is a very nice environment, there wasn?t much exchange in software concepts to common computing as we know it. What we have today, mostly evolved from the home computer area in the 1970?s. And IBM stuff evolved in parallel. > Even tried to heroically (i.e. without reading manuals) install one of the turnkeys. This could succeed if you have your favorite one-to-many chat solutions on line and are joined to a group of patient experts. :-) > I came upon some problems with keyboard mapping ? which is almost always a client problem. > to have a look into the DEC world This is still on my list, waiting to be serviced. From my experience, this will happen when I feel bored with the other stuff. > I have some intro book about mainframes stuffed on my e-book reader, maybe I will try again. Some day. No need to rush. ?The mainframe is dead? is a meme now decades old. And it?s still there, and relevant. Not that this would be an issue in this list. ;-) > There is, or was, a very interesting effort to create a modern upgrade to S360, called S380 (and there are, or were, upgraded versions of OS and MVS). I?m aware. The upgrade involved mostly raising the tight virtual address of 16 MBytes space per region. The driving force was the will to be able to compile GCC. There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes, why on earth something like what is mainly a text parser needs anything more than being in the C89/C90 standard, etc. Some other people are appalled against this Franken-MVS, because it?s not the true thing. > It was great idea, because S360 and related software all have fallen into public domain, free to tinker with. Yap. Although progress is very slow, because there are not too many skilled people trying to move stuff forward. So, kludges are built, as most often in similar situations. > they regularly hang dogs on IBM for wiping whole sections of old documentation off the redbooks site. Whatever one finds there, be thankful and download. Yap, I do regularly. Need to provide a proper index, though. > That was interesting thing to learn. Thanks again. You?re most welcome. If there arise any questions being AS/400 specific, just ask me and I?ll try to help as best as I can. To me it?s somewhat underrepresented in hobbyist circles. :wq! PoC From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Jan 6 02:52:51 2021 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 08:52:51 +0000 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7fcae0e4b0f081dd8a79e652754e60f8@groenenberg.net> January 6, 2021 9:30 AM, "P Gebhardt via cctalk" wrote: > If anybody of you has been looking for a Bendix System or a CDC 160 console and has deep pockets: > That's your opportunity ;) > ebay numbers 203239156838 and 203239181341 > Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw the listings - can't believe that such cool systems are > still stored in some warehouses in the U.S. for business purposes ... > > Cheers, > Pierre > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.digitalheritage.de It can be debated of the price for the Bendix is high or not, but it is truly a nice and rare machine. And by the looks of it, it seems to be complete too. Not sure tough if the rack on the right belongs to it. I hope it ends up in a proper museum and hopefully it can be displayed in running condition. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From poc at pocnet.net Wed Jan 6 07:21:57 2021 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 14:21:57 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <01f001d6e428$c1b46c60$451d4520$@tin.it> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> <055d01d6e3c7$d3499420$79dcbc60$@tin.it> <5310B96A-B654-4B72-855E-E2AA9BBD455A@pocnet.net> <01f001d6e428$c1b46c60$451d4520$@tin.it> Message-ID: <172627BE-C731-473C-B93E-BB5F1F078640@pocnet.net> Hello, Am 06.01.2021 um 13:37 schrieb mazzinia at tin.it: >> What I understood from your last posting is that once you reformat an AS/400 disk for 512 Bytes per sector as used by commodity hardware, you can?t use it again on AS/400, even by reformatting. > > Yes, that's correct Hm, I never verified that claim. Maybe I once had such an ex-AS/400 disk in earlier times which might sit unrecognized in my hard disk drawer. I can?t confirm your claim but I doubt it?s true: Firmware extensions will not get overridden from a reformat, and you can always reformat with 522 Bytes/Sector. I bet it will work again. > And I doubt that there's an orderly shutdown from the panel? That?s exactly what I wanted to express. :-) > I remember being told of only one procedure, but it would not cause damages/issues of sort. I?ve read about that procedure in an IBM (red)book and it?s ?not recommended for regular use?. I would need to look up the source if you want a proof. > In any case we're speaking about something that was meant to be turned on and never turned off unless some maintenance or a big issue. The OS has highly sophisticated scheduling for automatic start and shutdown, with possible exceptions per weekday and one-time exceptions like holidays. (Type GO POWER into the command line to see the menu.) I guess even one or two decades back, there was reason to save power. > and for a catastrophe where the terminal is not accessible That?s what I mean. The procedure is not meant to be used as a substitute for pwrdwnsys. :wq! PoC From mazzinia at tin.it Wed Jan 6 07:52:16 2021 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 14:52:16 +0100 Subject: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany In-Reply-To: <172627BE-C731-473C-B93E-BB5F1F078640@pocnet.net> References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ea01d6e3b2$bec51840$3c4f48c0$@tin.it> <055d01d6e3c7$d3499420$79dcbc60$@tin.it> <5310B96A-B654-4B72-855E-E2AA9BBD455A@pocnet.net> <01f001d6e428$c1b46c60$451d4520$@tin.it> <172627BE-C731-473C-B93E-BB5F1F078640@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <022701d6e433$24f74c20$6ee5e460$@tin.it> There are people that tried, it doesn't work. There's something proprietary written at low level that gets erased doing a low level format ( required to change the sectors ). The specifics were never released... With this I mean that the trick is not the firmware of the disk, but low level bits on the platters About the automatic shutdowns/restarts , I agree but I think it's a feature that was mainly directed at smaller AS used in satellite offices to support the local workforce and that had nothing going on, as a consequence, outside of business hours -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Patrik Schindler via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 2:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany Hello, Am 06.01.2021 um 13:37 schrieb mazzinia at tin.it: >> What I understood from your last posting is that once you reformat an AS/400 disk for 512 Bytes per sector as used by commodity hardware, you can?t use it again on AS/400, even by reformatting. > > Yes, that's correct Hm, I never verified that claim. Maybe I once had such an ex-AS/400 disk in earlier times which might sit unrecognized in my hard disk drawer. I can?t confirm your claim but I doubt it?s true: Firmware extensions will not get overridden from a reformat, and you can always reformat with 522 Bytes/Sector. I bet it will work again. > And I doubt that there's an orderly shutdown from the panel? That?s exactly what I wanted to express. :-) > I remember being told of only one procedure, but it would not cause damages/issues of sort. I?ve read about that procedure in an IBM (red)book and it?s ?not recommended for regular use?. I would need to look up the source if you want a proof. > In any case we're speaking about something that was meant to be turned on and never turned off unless some maintenance or a big issue. The OS has highly sophisticated scheduling for automatic start and shutdown, with possible exceptions per weekday and one-time exceptions like holidays. (Type GO POWER into the command line to see the menu.) I guess even one or two decades back, there was reason to save power. > and for a catastrophe where the terminal is not accessible That?s what I mean. The procedure is not meant to be used as a substitute for pwrdwnsys. :wq! PoC From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jan 6 09:54:23 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 09:54:23 -0600 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5FF5DD2F.6020909@pico-systems.com> On 01/06/2021 03:12 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > > Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw the listings - can't believe that > such cool systems are still stored in some warehouses in the U.S. for > business purposes ... > > Business purposes? No WAY! The G-15 was obsolete within a year after it was introduced, but it was cheap, and for a few years core memory was still very expensive. The performance was laughable by 1965 for sure. They've had it for 25+ years? How about FIFTY? As for that rack on the right, it may be that they replaced the rather crude power supplies inside the CPU with external regulated supplies. Jon From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 6 10:25:39 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 16:25:39 +0000 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <5FF5DD2F.6020909@pico-systems.com> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> <5FF5DD2F.6020909@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20210106162538.GA6678@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 06, 2021 at 09:54:23AM -0600, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > The G-15 was obsolete within a year after it was introduced, but it stayed in production, especially in highway departments, for many years afterwards. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jan 6 10:31:37 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 16:31:37 +0000 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <7fcae0e4b0f081dd8a79e652754e60f8@groenenberg.net> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <7fcae0e4b0f081dd8a79e652754e60f8@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <20210106163137.GB6678@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jan 06, 2021 at 08:52:51AM +0000, Ed Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: > It can be debated of the price for the Bendix is high or not, but it > is truly a nice and rare machine. And by the looks of it, it seems to > be complete too. This was the machine I learned to program on. (What was then Humble Oil & Refining donated it to my high school. I was the only student curious enough to work on it.) I still have one of each of the vaccum tube plugin cards. Oh, and a copy of the technical manual with the FE's notes :-) The last time I tried to gather together information about it (see URL below), there were four still known. Even as late at 20 years ago there had been others, at McGill University in Canada, and one in Australia: http://obscurecomputers.org/g15/index.html > Not sure tough if the rack on the right belongs to it. I'm not either. I have never seen that before. > I hope it ends up in a proper museum and hopefully it can be displayed > in running condition. I hope so too. I'm not at the stage of my life where I could take on this task. But I would be glad to assist anyone actually working on one. mcl From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 6 14:01:50 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:01:50 -0800 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <7fcae0e4b0f081dd8a79e652754e60f8@groenenberg.net> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <7fcae0e4b0f081dd8a79e652754e60f8@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <77bbb1b1a480b7a0c262b4b960f67f365795f6d7.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Wed, 2021-01-06 at 08:52 +0000, Ed Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: > It can be debated of the price for the Bendix is high or not, but it is truly a nice > and rare machine. And by the looks of it, it seems to be complete too. > Not sure tough if the rack on the right belongs to it. > > I hope it ends up in a proper museum and hopefully it can be > displayed in running condition. The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA has one, but it's not in operating order.I don't know whether they have a mag tape drive. G-15 was the first machine I used, at the Summer Science Program, in Ojai, CA in 1963. We used it to calculate asteroid positions on photographic plates, prior to computing orbit elements -- which we did by hand on Monroe and Friden calculators. Several years ago, I wrote an emulator for Intercom-1000. It's at http://vandyke.mynetgear.com/1401/G15. UCLA used at least one G15 to syntax check Fortran programs before they were submitted to the 7094. Highway departments used them for years because Bendix provided cut- and-cover software. The software might have been developed by a highway department in Australia. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 6 14:27:55 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:27:55 -0800 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2021-01-06 at 08:30 +0000, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > If anybody of you has been looking for a Bendix System or a CDC 160 > console and has deep pockets: That's your opportunity ;) > ebay numbers 203239156838 and 203239181341 > Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw the listings - can't believe > that such cool systems are still stored in some warehouses in the > U.S. for business purposes ... G15 was called the "First Personal Computer" because Bendix gave one to Harry Huskey, who had designed it. He was also a professor at UC Berkeley. > Cheers, Pierre > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------http://www.digitalheritage.de From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 6 14:47:08 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:47:08 -0800 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2021-01-06 at 08:30 +0000, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > If anybody of you has been looking for a Bendix System or a CDC 160 > console and has deep pockets: That's your opportunity ;) > ebay numbers 203239156838 and 203239181341 > Not affiliated with the seller. Just saw the listings - can't believe > that such cool systems are still stored in some warehouses in the > U.S. for business purposes ... In the G15 programming manual at http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bendix/g-15/G15D_Programmers_Ref_Man.pdf , there's a remark about sexagesimal digits. The manual says "usually hex in conversation because nobody wants to abbreviate sex." "The symbols in the sexagesimal language are u, v, w, x, y and z. These are arbitrary markings; other computers may use different alphabetic characters for these last six digits." We're all familiar with A-F. The Illiac-I used KSNJFL because the input device was a 5-bit Baudot-code teletype, and in "figs" mode they produced those six binary patterns. There were two mnemonics to remember those digits. King Size Numbers Just For LaughsKind Souls Never Jostle Fat Ladies > Cheers, Pierre > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------http://www.digitalheritage.de From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 6 15:13:16 2021 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 16:13:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: <77bbb1b1a480b7a0c262b4b960f67f365795f6d7.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <791477250.2003978.1609921847039@mail.yahoo.com> <791477250.2003978.1609921847039.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <7fcae0e4b0f081dd8a79e652754e60f8@groenenberg.net> <77bbb1b1a480b7a0c262b4b960f67f365795f6d7.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >> I hope it ends up in a proper museum and hopefully it can be >> displayed in running condition. > > The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA has one, but it's not > in operating order.I don't know whether they have a mag tape drive. The VCF museum at Infoage in NJ also has a G-15 on display. Not operational. http://q7.neurotica.com/IMG_5176.JPG Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 6 16:24:14 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 17:24:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules Message-ID: <20210106222414.39E7518C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Anyone need/want a couple of these? Someone has a group of 5 for sale on eBait (#184317666245), and I want a couple, but not _5_. The seller didn't respond to a request to split up the lot, so I'd like to go in with a couple of other people on the. Any takers? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 18:55:24 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 19:55:24 -0500 Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules In-Reply-To: <20210106222414.39E7518C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210106222414.39E7518C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 5:24 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Anyone need/want a couple of these? Someone has a group of 5 for sale on eBait > (#184317666245), and I want a couple, but not _5_. The seller didn't respond > to a request to split up the lot, so I'd like to go in with a couple of other > people on the. Any takers? I'm a "maybe"... what are these found in? (I have quite a bit of early 70s PDP-11 gear). -ethan From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jan 6 19:35:52 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 11:35:52 +1000 Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules In-Reply-To: References: <20210106222414.39E7518C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4b56996470c4c2f4222166216ccd730e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 5:24 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: >> Anyone need/want a couple of these? Someone has a group of 5 for sale on eBait >> (#184317666245), and I want a couple, but not _5_. The seller didn't respond >> to a request to split up the lot, so I'd like to go in with a couple of other >> people on the. Any takers? > > I'm a "maybe"... what are these found in? (I have quite a bit of early > 70s PDP-11 gear). > > -ethan It's not used in the PDP-11/15, that I can tell. I checked the 11/15 module utilisation diagram and it specifies the KP11-A M7217 and M7218 Power Fail and Restart modules, which my FOX2 does have installed. Steve. From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jan 7 00:19:47 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 07:19:47 +0100 Subject: worlds of classic objects [was Re: DEDICATED HOBBYIST ALERT: IBM AS/400 9406-F2 for cheap sale in Germany] In-Reply-To: References: <20210105205353.GA18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <04ba01d6e3a6$05218f10$0f64ad30$@tin.it> <20210105214552.GB18124@tau1.ceti.pl> <20210106023524.GC18124@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20210107061947.GA25780@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Jan 06, 2021 at 02:01:17PM +0100, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: > Hello Tomasz, > > allow me to send ahead, that it?s a pleasure to have a conversation > going on with you. And it is a pleasure to have a conversation with you, too. Perhaps because this place is full of goodwilling strangers. > Am 06.01.2021 um 03:35 schrieb Tomasz Rola via cctalk > [...] > > I think I am truly lousy hobbist. > > Don't worry too much. I have a lot of games in my Steam Library > ?just in case?, and because there once was a huge discount in > price. A lot of them, I never installed so far. > > Doing something from begin to end requires patience and ongoing > motivation. And a certain curiosity level. There are times when I > cannot come up with enough of that, and then I feel like what you > describe. Man, I do have both patience and motivation (at least when I am not asleep). Otherwise, how could I play a game over and over for more than twenty years? Well, of course when I make a break and do not play it for a year, I forget details and it makes sense to start again. And those emotions. It is a bit like going to the bar where locals demanded to beat me, but I ran away so there was no conclusion, then after a year I come again... (In case this not quite obvious, I am making jokes of myself. I need more practice, because I am rather lousy satorist...) [...] > > Even tried to heroically (i.e. without reading manuals) install > > one of the turnkeys. > > This could succeed if you have your favorite one-to-many chat > solutions on line and are joined to a group of patient experts. :-) Nah. It would not be heroic if I started calling for help. [...] > > to have a look into the DEC world > > This is still on my list, waiting to be serviced. From my > experience, this will happen when I feel bored with the other > stuff. Myself, I now feel the inexplicable pull towards the world of CP/M. Really, I have to play with it and be done with it. But, yes, if time permits. [...] > > There is, or was, a very interesting effort to create a modern > upgrade to S360, called S380 (and there are, or were, upgraded > versions of OS and MVS). > > I?m aware. The upgrade involved mostly raising the tight virtual > address of 16 MBytes space per region. The driving force was the > will to be able to compile GCC. There was a lot of discussion behind > the scenes, why on earth something like what is mainly a text parser > needs anything more than being in the C89/C90 standard, etc. > > Some other people are appalled against this Franken-MVS, because > it?s not the true thing. I kind of understand their attitude. And I think I will always admire it when someone can resuscitate the original and make it shine. And I can learn plenty of interesting things by reading about old ways. But, I think that just as I was looking at classic computers, something in the back of my head was asking, if this object could be used by me in some practical way. And usually there is plenty of uses for a new object like this, but they no longer make them new. So for practical uses, the only resonable choice seems to be making franken-objects, connecting new parts with old soft, yes, this means emulation but also extension. Otherwise, the originals will fade away - sooner or later they will - and there would be no trace of whatever valuable lessons the past had. [...] > > they regularly hang dogs on IBM for wiping whole sections of old > documentation off the redbooks site. Whatever one finds there, be > thankful and download. > > Yap, I do regularly. Need to provide a proper index, though. For such things I use org-mode, a kind of modular extension in Emacs-the-editor. Actually, it is a code in elisp and Emacs just interprets it and shows specially formatted text as tree-like structure, which can be treated as knowledge base, or notes, a book one is writing, a blog which is then converted and exported to the server (I never saw it, but some claim they do this) or whatever one wants - one can also make use of pim/diary/todos, insert and run code snippets in huge number of languages, and make small spreadsheets inside the org-file. I find it very handy. Not perfect but more than "good enough". Of course the tree-like structure can be edited inside Emacs. This is just a text file, so it can also be processed by standard unix tools, or whatever other tools or scripts one prefers for text processing. There are/were some movies on y-t, I watched them first to have an idea of what to expect from it. The world of Emacs was so cool that I actually spent some time and learnt enough to use for my various purposes. It took few years of lazy learning, but right now I am on the level of writing my own functions which serve as shortcuts (doing something "my way"), or, for example, allow me to write text in Polish even when I do not have proper kb mappings (transform, say, "za/.z/'o//l/'c g/,e/'sl/,a ja/'z/'n" into unicoded "za???? g??l? ja??"). This is a kind of "classic" which greatly appeals to me. Emacs was first written fourty or so years ago, and when I read elisp files from install dir I quite often stumble upon code written in the 1980-ties or 1990-ties. But the thing is alive and kicking. If one had to learn only one thing of all the old things still available to us, then I think Emacs should be the choice. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 01:52:43 2021 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 07:52:43 +0000 Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules In-Reply-To: References: <20210106222414.39E7518C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Message-ID: Van: Ethan Dicks via cctalk Verzonden: donderdag 7 januari 2021 01:55 Aan: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 5:24 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Anyone need/want a couple of these? Someone has a group of 5 for sale on eBait > (#184317666245), and I want a couple, but not _5_. The seller didn't respond > to a request to split up the lot, so I'd like to go in with a couple of other > people on the. Any takers? I'm a "maybe"... what are these found in? (I have quite a bit of early 70s PDP-11 gear). -ethan ISTR that the M688 is optional in the RH-11 (MASSBUS interface for PDP-11), but I am too lazy to check (still too early). Henk, PA8PDP From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 7 08:00:49 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 09:00:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules Message-ID: <20210107140049.CF2BD18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > what are these found in? The "Spare Module Handbook" lists: RH11-AB TM11, TMA11 MX11-B Does _anyone_ actually have an MX11? Any documentation would also be welcome; all I've been able to find out about it is a listing for the addresses of control registers. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 7 08:56:21 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 09:56:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules Message-ID: <20210107145621.0A41518C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > The "Spare Module Handbook" lists: > ... > MX11-B I apparently can't read. Should be "MX15-B": https://gunkies.org/wiki/MX15-B_Memory_Multiplexer Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 7 19:32:51 2021 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 19:32:51 -0600 Subject: test please ignore Message-ID: <000001d6e55e$2e5d20b0$8b176210$@classiccmp.org> Test, please ignore. From steven at malikoff.com Thu Jan 7 19:59:17 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 11:59:17 +1000 Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules In-Reply-To: <20210107145621.0A41518C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210107145621.0A41518C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <23d327671531a6f5de44a91a8ee5a6b5.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Noel said > The "Spare Module Handbook" lists: > > ... > > MX11-B > > I apparently can't read. Should be "MX15-B": > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/MX15-B_Memory_Multiplexer Would that be part of this system at a Japanese computer museum? There is an 11/15 and the 11/05 has 'Unichannel15' on it: https://www.kcg.ac.jp/museum/en/computer/mini_computers/dec.html From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 7 20:38:03 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 21:38:03 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? Message-ID: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Well, with Dave's help we got the DSM-11 disk to boot on SIMH. Oddly enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. sim> attach rq0 dsm.dsk sim> set cpu 11/73,1m Disabling RK Disabling HK Disabling TM sim> boot rq0 Booting DSM-11... DSM-11 Version 3.0A Now running the baseline system. :1 G ^STU Exit DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: Exit DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: ? :0 Exit The problem is I don't remember how to use it anymore. Is there a PDF of the DSM-11 manual anywhere? I think this was a clean install, but I'd like to check it for data before putting it into archives. Also which archive would be best for it? CZ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 23:00:54 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 21:00:54 -0800 Subject: Bendix G-15 and Control Data 160 console on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CC04B24-06D1-4EE0-AA04-F9E7DE00B5D3@gmail.com> The LCM had a beautiful one in pretty advanced phases of restoration. They had replaced the supplies with modern ones. It?s pretty spectacular steampunk machine! Marc > On Jan 6, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > >>> I hope it ends up in a proper museum and hopefully it can be >>> displayed in running condition. >> >> The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA has one, but it's not >> in operating order.I don't know whether they have a mag tape drive. > > The VCF museum at Infoage in NJ also has a G-15 on display. Not operational. > > http://q7.neurotica.com/IMG_5176.JPG > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 8 08:05:41 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 09:05:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules Message-ID: <20210108140541.1A12B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > Would that be part of this system at a Japanese computer museum? ... > the 11/05 has 'Unichannel15' on it Yes, the 3 bays in the center are a PDP-15. (The indicator panel at the top of the center bay is the one for the PDP-15 CPU; you can see it here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html at the top of the 'PDP-15' section.) The Unichannel 15: https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNICHANNEL_15_System is undoubtly there to drive the RK05; I don't think there's a native PDP-15 controller for that. > There is an 11/15 ??? Is that a typo for 'PDP-15'? The -11/15 looks just like an -11/20 https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-1115 except it only has 16 address switches, not 18 as on the /20. (The front panel shown there has an OEM-specific re-paint; I couldn't quickly turn up an image of a DEC /15 front panel.) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 8 11:59:49 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 12:59:49 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <355BF1A4-93A9-4478-B436-4AADAB961BA5@comcast.net> > On Jan 7, 2021, at 9:38 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Well, with Dave's help we got the DSM-11 disk to boot on SIMH. Oddly enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. > > ... > > The problem is I don't remember how to use it anymore. Is there a PDF of the DSM-11 manual anywhere? I think this was a clean install, but I'd like to check it for data before putting it into archives. Neat. I know nothing about DSM-11 other than the name, and the fact it was the OS on top of which ASSIST-11 was implemented. Some googling turns up this http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/dsm-11.html which is modestly helpful. And this: https://kevinmurrell.tripod.com/dsm-11.htm And this: http://h30266.www3.hpe.com/MasterIndex/installation_guide/installation_guide_0095de04.txt which suggests that semi-useful manuals might be found in the VMS documentation set, possibly under the name "Digital Standard M" rather than "...MUMPS". paul From spedraja at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 12:16:41 2021 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 19:16:41 +0100 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Any copy of this software available to play with? Sergio El vie., 8 ene. 2021 3:38, Chris Zach via cctalk escribi?: > Well, with Dave's help we got the DSM-11 disk to boot on SIMH. Oddly > enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. > > sim> attach rq0 dsm.dsk > sim> set cpu 11/73,1m > Disabling RK > Disabling HK > Disabling TM > sim> boot rq0 > > Booting DSM-11... > > DSM-11 Version 3.0A > Now running the baseline system. > > :1 G ^STU > Exit > > DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: > Exit > > DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: ? > :0 > Exit > > The problem is I don't remember how to use it anymore. Is there a PDF of > the DSM-11 manual anywhere? I think this was a clean install, but I'd > like to check it for data before putting it into archives. > > Also which archive would be best for it? > > CZ > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 13:57:24 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 12:57:24 -0700 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 7:38 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Oddly enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. > That's good to know, but not really all that odd. Arguably the main purpose of MSCP was to abstract away drive and controller differences. From john at forecast.name Fri Jan 8 14:48:07 2021 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:48:07 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <82F4FBA4-DCF7-4560-8A23-9AE15D00B09B@forecast.name> A slightly newer version (3.3) is available from bitsaver.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/dsm-11 John. > On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:16 PM, Sergio Pedraja via cctalk wrote: > > Any copy of this software available to play with? > > Sergio > > El vie., 8 ene. 2021 3:38, Chris Zach via cctalk > escribi?: > >> Well, with Dave's help we got the DSM-11 disk to boot on SIMH. Oddly >> enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. >> >> sim> attach rq0 dsm.dsk >> sim> set cpu 11/73,1m >> Disabling RK >> Disabling HK >> Disabling TM >> sim> boot rq0 >> >> Booting DSM-11... >> >> DSM-11 Version 3.0A >> Now running the baseline system. >> >> :1 G ^STU >> Exit >> >> DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: >> Exit >> >> DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: ? >> :0 >> Exit >> >> The problem is I don't remember how to use it anymore. Is there a PDF of >> the DSM-11 manual anywhere? I think this was a clean install, but I'd >> like to check it for data before putting it into archives. >> >> Also which archive would be best for it? >> >> CZ >> From steven at malikoff.com Fri Jan 8 17:02:32 2021 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 09:02:32 +1000 Subject: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules In-Reply-To: <20210108140541.1A12B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210108140541.1A12B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9adb6d6a552254cacf72aade726d54e5.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Noel said > (I said) > There is an 11/15 > > ??? Is that a typo for 'PDP-15'? The -11/15 looks just like an -11/20 > > https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-1115 > > except it only has 16 address switches, not 18 as on the /20. (The front panel > shown there has an OEM-specific re-paint; I couldn't quickly turn up an image > of a DEC /15 front panel.) Yes it was a typo sorry. I had meant to type 'PDP-15' but in my haste and having '11/15' on the brain (owing to the FOX 2 I have) I mistakenly typed that instead. Off-topic for this thread I guess, but, the FOX 2 has a two-tone green panel that are in the Foxboro corporate colours, these being different shades to the Lab(?) 11/20 on the wiki page. (Photo showing some of the FOX 2 switches at http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?76489-reproduction-PDP-8e-toggle-switches/page2 ) If anyone ever sees a DECwriter in green then that would likely be a Foxboro one as well. I've also seen on eBay a front panel from a russian 11/15 clone, quite a crude manufacture. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 8 19:16:41 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 20:16:41 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <63b41175-8e39-c276-b37f-e28dbe6c3454@alembic.crystel.com> True, however SIMH has to write things to a "real" file that emulates something of a disk. In this case I'm guessing it writes more as a super powered RQDX2 in that the first cylinders do not have the disk parameters and other odd stuff. Which makes sense as the RQDX1 and 2 are simpler devices than the 3. But as Dave pointed out, the last track on the disk is probably the bad block revector table. So no clue as to how the disk remaps bad blocks, but I don't think any of them were bad. I'll put the image up on iguana tonight. If it's a blank system then someone can fiddle around with it a bit. CZ On 1/8/2021 2:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 7:38 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > Oddly enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. > > > That's good to know, but not really all that odd. Arguably the main > purpose of MSCP was to abstract away drive and controller differences. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 8 19:17:42 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 20:17:42 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <22F640D8-059D-4509-A784-7C340EBC3BC4@comcast.net> > On Jan 8, 2021, at 2:57 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 7:38 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > >> Oddly enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. >> > > That's good to know, but not really all that odd. Arguably the main purpose > of MSCP was to abstract away drive and controller differences. Yes, but also to hide bad blocks. So the difference between a raw sector dump and a SIMH container file is, minimally, the spare sectors. What that looks like depends on the format; I have no idea what MSCP controllers did. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 8 19:19:25 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 20:19:25 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <2e05f094-19f2-2724-d5b9-a47b9c1b868d@alembic.crystel.com> A copy of the disk image is at https://www.crystel.com/pdp/dsm-11.30.dsk Feel free to put it on more stable archives. It appears to be a freshly genned system. CZ On 1/8/2021 1:16 PM, Sergio Pedraja wrote: > Any copy of this software available to play with? > > Sergio > > El vie., 8 ene. 2021 3:38, Chris Zach via cctalk > escribi?: > > Well, with Dave's help we got the DSM-11 disk to boot on SIMH. Oddly > enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well. > > sim> attach rq0 dsm.dsk > sim> set cpu 11/73,1m > Disabling RK > Disabling HK > Disabling TM > sim> boot rq0 > > Booting DSM-11... > > DSM-11 Version 3.0A > Now running the baseline system. > > :1 G ^STU > Exit > > DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: > Exit > > DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: ? > :0 > Exit > > The problem is I don't remember how to use it anymore. Is there a > PDF of > the DSM-11 manual anywhere? I think this was a clean install, but I'd > like to check it for data before putting it into archives. > > Also which archive would be best for it? > > CZ > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 19:54:58 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:54:58 -0700 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <63b41175-8e39-c276-b37f-e28dbe6c3454@alembic.crystel.com> References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> <63b41175-8e39-c276-b37f-e28dbe6c3454@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 6:16 PM Chris Zach wrote: > True, however SIMH has to write things to a "real" file that emulates > something of a disk. > I thought the SIMH representation of an MSCP disk was just a linear array of 512-byte blocks, from block 0 to block n-1, in which case, it's still not at all surprising that any RQDXn, or any other MSCP disk with the standard Unibus/Qbus MSCP port interface would "just work". If I'm wrong about how the disk is represented by SIMH, then maybe it could be more surprising. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 19:57:20 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:57:20 -0700 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <22F640D8-059D-4509-A784-7C340EBC3BC4@comcast.net> References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> <22F640D8-059D-4509-A784-7C340EBC3BC4@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 6:17 PM Paul Koning wrote: > Yes, but also to hide bad blocks. So the difference between a raw sector > dump and a SIMH container file is, minimally, the spare sectors. What that > looks like depends on the format; I have no idea what MSCP controllers did. > MSCP controllers do the bad block mapping, so AFAIK the disk _always_ looks to the host like a linear array 0..n-1 of 512-byte blocks. When accessing an MSCP disk, the host should not, unless running special diagnostics, be able to distinguish what kind of disk is in use, aside from that it has a particular block count. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 8 20:29:19 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 21:29:19 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> <63b41175-8e39-c276-b37f-e28dbe6c3454@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: If so, then that's probably what the RQDX1/2 format *was*: Just a big bunch of 512 byte blocks, starting at zero and going up to the top. The controller had to know the geometry of the drive in order to move the heads, know how many cylinders there were, etc. One thing I did notice is the last cylinder of the disk is not formatted like the others and throws a bunch of errors on the MFM_READ command on all tracks. It's possible that the controller checks there first, then consults the ROM based lookup tables to get the proper disk geometry. Which explains why some controllers supported RD51,52 and later ones supported the 53 but none supported the 54. On the RQDX3 formatted disks, the first few tracks are also in a weird format, it's possible that is where the controller stores the head/cyl/sector format information. Note that a RQDX3 disk image does not seem to be able to connect up to the RQ driver like the RQDX2 one. Interesting stuff. I'm guessing if you remove the first couple of tracks from the file one could then read the rest of the disk on SIMH (as the rest is probably just a big pile of blocks and that's all that matters to SIMH) unless there are remapped sectors in which case I have no idea how those would work. Fun stuff. C On 1/8/2021 8:54 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 6:16 PM Chris Zach wrote: > >> True, however SIMH has to write things to a "real" file that emulates >> something of a disk. >> > > I thought the SIMH representation of an MSCP disk was just a linear array > of 512-byte blocks, from block 0 to block n-1, in which case, it's still > not at all surprising that any RQDXn, or any other MSCP disk with the > standard Unibus/Qbus MSCP port interface would "just work". > > If I'm wrong about how the disk is represented by SIMH, then maybe it could > be more surprising. > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 09:16:59 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 16:16:59 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: <20210102183435.GA1253701@hugin3> References: <20210102183435.GA1253701@hugin3> Message-ID: Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 19:34 skrev David Gesswein via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org>: > This is my info on RD53 sticking heads. Your symtoms match what I have seen > with this drive. > > If the heads are stuck to the rubber bumper the drive will spin back down > when it finds the heads won't move. It will also spin down if it can't > switch from the coarse speed control loop to using the head servo signal. > There is a narrow band where the heads are parked with the proper signal. > When the rubber has deteriorated the heads are no longer over it. Adding > shims > can fix that. I used a tent with RK05 filter but others have opened drives > in reasonably clean locations sucessfully. Best to keep the pets away. > The "shim" method worked fine. The drive spun up and I managed to dump it. Imade six dumps and the same five sectors were bad on every read I did. So now I have a nice dump of the PERQ 2 system. Wonder what it is on it? I see things like : --------------------------------------------------------------------- ! LoadDisk.Cmd ! Copyright (C) 1983, 1984 - Perq Systems Corporation. ! Abstract: ! Load version G.6 of POS onto the hard disk. so there is some PERQ stuff there at least. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/rd53.shtml > > Shim picture. > http://www.pdp8online.com/rd53/pics/lock.shtml?small > > > On Sat, Jan 02, 2021 at 02:05:11PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Den l?r 2 jan. 2021 kl 11:48 skrev Rob Jarratt < > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > >: > > > > > When that has happened to MFM disks of mine it has been because for one > > > reason or another the heads have not moved and found track 0. Why they > > > aren't moving could be more than one reason. They could be stuck, or > there > > > could be some other problem that is preventing them getting the power > > > needed to move. > > > > > > > Did you solve the problem? How? > > > > I have heard that Micropolis 1325 is prone to have a problem with a > rubber > > bumper that sticks to the head mechanism. Maybe it is the same for this > > Micropois drive? What resolutions are there to this type of problem? > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis > Lind > > > via > > > > cctalk > > > > Sent: 02 January 2021 08:59 > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. > > > > > > > > I have a nice ICL PERQ 2 T2 that I am going to start working with > now. > > > > > > > > First thing was to try to image the hard drive. It is a Micropolis > 1303. > > > It spins > > > > up but when it reaches what I think the correct speed it immediately > > > spins > > > > down. Usually I think there would be a click and then the heads would > > > > recalibrate. But there is no click and no head movement. > > > > > > > > I really would like to make an image of the drive. What are your > > > thoughts? > > > > Are the heads sticking? > > > > Some kind of solenoid that is not releasing the heads? Not properly > up to > > > > speed? (but it sounds like the speed is right) > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 9 12:10:59 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 13:10:59 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> <22F640D8-059D-4509-A784-7C340EBC3BC4@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 8, 2021, at 8:57 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 6:17 PM Paul Koning wrote: > >> Yes, but also to hide bad blocks. So the difference between a raw sector >> dump and a SIMH container file is, minimally, the spare sectors. What that >> looks like depends on the format; I have no idea what MSCP controllers did. >> > > MSCP controllers do the bad block mapping, so AFAIK the disk _always_ looks > to the host like a linear array 0..n-1 of 512-byte blocks. Yes. But perhaps I misunderstood; I thought the note to which I was replying described taking a raw dump of the disk itself, not a logical copy via the MSCP controller. paul From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 9 14:06:34 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 15:06:34 -0500 Subject: Dilog SQ703 Manual anybody? Message-ID: <0d21b74f-08eb-2126-3442-c03a2e4771db@ieee.org> I'd like to get a Dilog SQ703 I have to work on my microvax, does anybody know where I can get a copy of the manual? cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 9 13:08:27 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 14:08:27 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210109190827.GA1135968@hugin3> To possibly be clearer the image of the disk was a raw dump of the disk taken with the mfm emulator/reader board so it sees all the extra data the controller puts on the disk and the bad sectors etc. As far as I know no documentation exists of the low level format and revector table etc. For RQDX3 the controller has extra information at the beginning of the disk so mounting the raw image under SIMH doesn't work. The RQDX2 apperently puts its information at the end. Might be possible to reverse engineer the format if we get sector dump from the host to compare to the raw disk dump. Nobody has decided to tackle that. For the dump of my RD53 on Vaxstation RQDX3 head 0 sectors 0-2 are normal, 3-16 are funny format. Head 1 and 2 are all funny format. Head 3 sectors 0-2 are funny format. Removing those didn't work for me if I got my dd commands correct. On Fri, Jan 08, 2021 at 09:29:19PM -0500, Chris Zach wrote: > If so, then that's probably what the RQDX1/2 format *was*: Just a big bunch > of 512 byte blocks, starting at zero and going up to the top. > > The controller had to know the geometry of the drive in order to move the > heads, know how many cylinders there were, etc. One thing I did notice is > the last cylinder of the disk is not formatted like the others and throws a > bunch of errors on the MFM_READ command on all tracks. It's possible that > the controller checks there first, then consults the ROM based lookup tables > to get the proper disk geometry. Which explains why some controllers > supported RD51,52 and later ones supported the 53 but none supported the 54. > > On the RQDX3 formatted disks, the first few tracks are also in a weird > format, it's possible that is where the controller stores the > head/cyl/sector format information. Note that a RQDX3 disk image does not > seem to be able to connect up to the RQ driver like the RQDX2 one. > > Interesting stuff. I'm guessing if you remove the first couple of tracks > from the file one could then read the rest of the disk on SIMH (as the rest > is probably just a big pile of blocks and that's all that matters to SIMH) > unless there are remapped sectors in which case I have no idea how those > would work. > > Fun stuff. > C > > On 1/8/2021 8:54 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 6:16 PM Chris Zach wrote: > > > > > True, however SIMH has to write things to a "real" file that emulates > > > something of a disk. > > > > > > > I thought the SIMH representation of an MSCP disk was just a linear array > > of 512-byte blocks, from block 0 to block n-1, in which case, it's still > > not at all surprising that any RQDXn, or any other MSCP disk with the > > standard Unibus/Qbus MSCP port interface would "just work". > > > > If I'm wrong about how the disk is represented by SIMH, then maybe it could > > be more surprising. > > > > > ------------------------------ From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 9 14:06:19 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 13:06:19 -0700 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <20210109190827.GA1135968@hugin3> References: <20210109190827.GA1135968@hugin3> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 12:08 PM David Gesswein via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > To possibly be clearer the image of the disk was a raw dump of the disk > taken with the mfm emulator/reader board so it sees all the extra data the > controller puts on the disk and the bad sectors etc. As far as I know no > documentation exists of the low level format and revector table etc. For > RQDX3 the controller has extra information at the beginning of the disk so > mounting the raw image under SIMH doesn't work. The RQDX2 apperently puts > its > information at the end. Might be possible to reverse engineer the format > if we get sector dump from the host to compare to the raw disk dump. > Nobody > has decided to tackle that. > > For the dump of my RD53 on Vaxstation RQDX3 head 0 sectors 0-2 are normal, > 3-16 are funny format. Head 1 and 2 are all funny format. Head 3 sectors > 0-2 are funny format. Removing those didn't work for me if I got my > dd commands correct. > DEC standard 144 of any help? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00144_B_DEC_STD_144_Disk_Standard_for_Recording_and_Handling_Bad_Sectors_Nov76.pdf Warner On Fri, Jan 08, 2021 at 09:29:19PM -0500, Chris Zach wrote: > > If so, then that's probably what the RQDX1/2 format *was*: Just a big > bunch > > of 512 byte blocks, starting at zero and going up to the top. > > > > The controller had to know the geometry of the drive in order to move the > > heads, know how many cylinders there were, etc. One thing I did notice is > > the last cylinder of the disk is not formatted like the others and > throws a > > bunch of errors on the MFM_READ command on all tracks. It's possible that > > the controller checks there first, then consults the ROM based lookup > tables > > to get the proper disk geometry. Which explains why some controllers > > supported RD51,52 and later ones supported the 53 but none supported the > 54. > > > > On the RQDX3 formatted disks, the first few tracks are also in a weird > > format, it's possible that is where the controller stores the > > head/cyl/sector format information. Note that a RQDX3 disk image does not > > seem to be able to connect up to the RQ driver like the RQDX2 one. > > > > Interesting stuff. I'm guessing if you remove the first couple of tracks > > from the file one could then read the rest of the disk on SIMH (as the > rest > > is probably just a big pile of blocks and that's all that matters to > SIMH) > > unless there are remapped sectors in which case I have no idea how those > > would work. > > > > Fun stuff. > > C > > > > On 1/8/2021 8:54 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 6:16 PM Chris Zach > wrote: > > > > > > > True, however SIMH has to write things to a "real" file that emulates > > > > something of a disk. > > > > > > > > > > I thought the SIMH representation of an MSCP disk was just a linear > array > > > of 512-byte blocks, from block 0 to block n-1, in which case, it's > still > > > not at all surprising that any RQDXn, or any other MSCP disk with the > > > standard Unibus/Qbus MSCP port interface would "just work". > > > > > > If I'm wrong about how the disk is represented by SIMH, then maybe it > could > > > be more surprising. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jan 9 14:39:55 2021 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 15:39:55 -0500 Subject: Stride computers, was Re: Rod Coleman's personal history of founding, building & running SAGE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32ffce21-f153-3fa2-769b-6b2898f0bb93@e-bbes.com> On 2021-01-03 05:18, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: Hello Jos, I saw on a German web, that you're planing on a SAGE II remake? Still toying with it? Cheers From drb at msu.edu Sat Jan 9 15:20:09 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 16:20:09 -0500 Subject: Nine track file marks, Burroughs Message-ID: <20210109212009.9A35033A2F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Folks, I've now seen two Burroughs tapes where some of the expected file marks between labels and file data were apparently missing. I think a reasonable description of these is "Burroughs/Unisys B6x00 'Library/Maintenance' tapes with ANSI-69 labels" Reading drive is a Cipher GCR Cachetape with SCSI interface The one I read yesterday read in streaming mode and reported no read errors. I tried re-reading it today, and it read in start-stop mode, but still didn't have the missing file marks. (It also encountered a few errors, and eventually ended up sticking to the head, this time. Guess that bake cycle was a one-shot, which isn't a surprise.) This tape is a "Burroughs Series 7 / 100% Tested / 3200 FCI" 1200 foot reel written at 1600 BPI in 1986. Here's the beginning of the tape: file 1 record 1 size 80 00000000: e5 d6 d3 f1 f0 f3 f6 f1 f3 f0 40 d7 d9 d6 c7 d9 VOL1036130 PROGR 00000010: c1 d4 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 f6 f5 f3 f0 AM 6530 00000020: f3 f0 f5 f0 f3 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 30503 00000030: 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 00000040: 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 f1 1 file 1 record 2 size 80 00000000: c8 c4 d9 f1 c6 c9 d3 c5 f0 f0 f0 40 40 40 40 40 HDR1FILE000 00000010: 40 40 40 40 40 d7 d9 d6 c7 d9 c1 f0 f0 f0 f1 f0 PROGRA00010 00000020: f0 f0 f1 f0 f0 f0 f1 f0 f0 40 f8 f6 f2 f0 f2 40 001000100 86202 00000030: f8 f6 f2 f3 f2 40 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 86232 0000000000 00000040: f0 f0 f0 40 c1 f9 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 000 A9 file 1 record 3 size 80 00000000: c8 c4 d9 f2 e4 f0 f1 f0 f2 f4 f0 f1 f0 f2 f4 f3 HDR2U01024010243 00000010: f0 f1 f0 f1 f0 f0 f0 f0 f3 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 0101000030000000 00000020: f0 f0 f0 f0 f0 f6 f4 f0 f0 f1 f3 40 f0 f0 f6 f4 00000640013 0064 00000030: 40 40 f0 f6 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 06 00000040: 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 file 1 record 4 size 2070 00000000: 40 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 12 03 03 04 ............... ...etc. Is oddness with file marks something others have seen with Burroughs tapes? Something the Cipher drive is known for? Moon phase? Incorrect fifth digit of my SSN? I've not had this missing file mark problem with tapes written on other vendors systems - Prime, IBM, DEC. Cluebats appreciated. De From tomas at basun.net Sat Jan 9 15:23:44 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 22:23:44 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail Router for NT In-Reply-To: <877dp87jp7.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <877dp87jp7.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87bldxls7z.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi again everybody, Apparently the router program ignores the baud parameter when the `PBX' option is used (or maybe it is the phase of the moon), so I am specifying the serial port speed using the DOS `mode' command, before starting the router. Here is the output: | C:\CCMAIL\Router>C:\CCMAIL\Router\NTROUTER.EXE C:\CCDATA COM1 MODEM/PBX | cc:Mail NT ROUTER Version 6.10.00.4 | Copyright (c) 1986, 1997 by cc:Mail, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of | Lotus Development Corporation. All rights reserved. This software is subject | to the Lotus Software Agreement, Restricted Rights for U.S. government users, | and applicable export regulations. | | Press Esc to terminate cc:Mail ROUTER program. | Waiting to receive messages... | 9/1/21 21:10 Answering call... 2 4 7 ff 68 c4 | Packets enabled. | Handshake recvd. | Data connection not requested. | Bad Packet Summary -- Naks sent: 0 recv: 0 Retrans: 0 | 9/1/21 21:10 Ending connection. | Waiting to receive messages... | 9/1/21 21:10 Answering call... 2 4 7 ff 68 c4 | Packets enabled. | Handshake recvd. (roughly here, the Palmtop displays the message "could not connect") | Data connection not requested. | Bad Packet Summary -- Naks sent: 0 recv: 0 Retrans: 0 | 9/1/21 21:11 Ending connection. | Waiting to receive messages... What is it I am missing? Is there nobody here who remembers this stuff? It's only been twenty years. /Tomas On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 14:09:24 +0100, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm using a HP 200LX to connect to a cc:Mail installation, with a null > modem cable. It has worked better before, but now I don't seem to be > able to connect at all. [...] From dick.curtis at ymail.com Sat Jan 9 16:18:58 2021 From: dick.curtis at ymail.com (Richard Curtis) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 22:18:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <404942857.150107.1610230738540@mail.yahoo.com> ftp://ftp.intersystems.com/pub/msm/docs/msm43/users.pdf is another source for a manual.? It's the version which Micronetics sold, of which I heard "Micronetics shamelessly? copied DSM-11?practically line for line to the PC."??So the manual is probably close enough to work. HTH,Dick From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 9 16:51:28 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 16:51:28 -0600 Subject: Nine track file marks, Burroughs In-Reply-To: <20210109212009.9A35033A2F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210109212009.9A35033A2F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5FFA3370.7030809@pico-systems.com> On 01/09/2021 03:20 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Folks, > > I've now seen two Burroughs tapes where some of the expected file marks > between labels and file data were apparently missing. > > NRZI file marks are only a couple flux changes, drives that have squelch logic to suppress unstable read amps could easily miss them. PE file marks have preamble and postamble clock data, and it should be quite hard for them to just disappear. Now, one little detail is not all formatters followed the specs for interrecord gaps. The NRZI spec required insanely huge gaps, likely designed for very early capstan and pinch roller drives. The gaps were several times the size of common data records. Many later formatters cheated on this and used much smaller gaps. Some formatters might miss a file mark due to incompatibility of the gaps. But, that seems less likely at 1600 BPI, I think the required gap was reduced in the standard. Your tape dump looks very much like a classic ANSI tape label format, except for the missing file mark after the HDR2 record. Are ALL those file marks after HDR2 missing, or just some of them? I can see it being quite reasonable for there to be no file mark after HDR2, if you were going to write your own format. That specific FM is just not actually needed if you KNOW the first data record follows HDR2. So, the format could be : VOL1 HDR1 HDR2 data data FM HDR1 HDR2 data data FM etc. I can't say I have actually encountered such a tape before, but I wouldn't be surprised. But, of course, that would not be fully ANSI compatible. Jon From drb at msu.edu Sat Jan 9 16:59:36 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 17:59:36 -0500 Subject: Nine track file marks, Burroughs In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 09 Jan 2021 16:51:28 -0600.) <5FFA3370.7030809@pico-systems.com> References: <5FFA3370.7030809@pico-systems.com> <20210109212009.9A35033A2F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20210109225937.3A11333A421@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Jon, Thanks for your thoughts. > Your tape dump looks very much like a classic ANSI tape label format, > except for the missing file mark after the HDR2 record. Are ALL > those file marks after HDR2 missing, or just some of them? Right, and they're supposed to be ANSI69ish, though they are in EBCDIC. No, not all of them are missing, not even if one "compresses" out some of the "obvious" ones along the lines of your example. > I can see it being quite reasonable for there to be no file mark > after HDR2, if you were going to write your own format. That > specific FM is just not actually needed if you KNOW the first data > record follows HDR2. So, the format could be : Yes, you could. The Burroughs doc seems to say the FM is supposed to be there between every group of labels and the preceding or following data, though. De From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 9 17:11:31 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 15:11:31 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34 /04 power knob anyone? Message-ID: <6138F1C2-5DC6-40A5-AAAD-96E51B2B3AB7@fritzm.org> Hi folks, I?m working on an 11/34 at the moment, with the programmer?s console, and it is missing its front panel power control knob. I think it is the same one used on the 11/04? Anybody have a spare in their parts stock that they?d be willing to part with? (I?m also missing the plastic half-panel for the front, but I do see those go by on eBay from time to time.) cheers, ?FritzM. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 17:54:35 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 18:54:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34 /04 power knob anyone? In-Reply-To: <6138F1C2-5DC6-40A5-AAAD-96E51B2B3AB7@fritzm.org> References: <6138F1C2-5DC6-40A5-AAAD-96E51B2B3AB7@fritzm.org> Message-ID: 3d-printable? I made an IMSAI paddle with my 3d printer. Works great. On Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 6:11 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > I?m working on an 11/34 at the moment, with the programmer?s console, and > it is missing its front panel power control knob. I think it is the same > one used on the 11/04? Anybody have a spare in their parts stock that > they?d be willing to part with? > > (I?m also missing the plastic half-panel for the front, but I do see those > go by on eBay from time to time.) > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 9 18:23:21 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 18:23:21 -0600 Subject: Nine track file marks, Burroughs In-Reply-To: <20210109225937.3A11333A421@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <5FFA3370.7030809@pico-systems.com> <20210109212009.9A35033A2F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20210109225937.3A11333A421@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5FFA48F9.8080000@pico-systems.com> On 01/09/2021 04:59 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Jon, > > > > Yes, you could. The Burroughs doc seems to say the FM is supposed to be > there between every group of labels and the preceding or following data, > though. > Well, then the only thing you can do is Magna-See or one of the dry magnetic viewers. Jon From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 9 18:25:52 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 16:25:52 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34 /04 power knob anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <6138F1C2-5DC6-40A5-AAAD-96E51B2B3AB7@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <3688EF89-0ACB-4AAF-BB04-CF0A599F323E@fritzm.org> > On Jan 9, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > 3d-printable? It would seem so. I don?t have one to measure, though, and I haven?t seen any 3d models online yet. I could probably eyeball it, but anybody have one and care to measure? Does the original have a brass bushing? From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jan 9 18:50:34 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 16:50:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34 /04 power knob anyone? In-Reply-To: <3688EF89-0ACB-4AAF-BB04-CF0A599F323E@fritzm.org> References: <6138F1C2-5DC6-40A5-AAAD-96E51B2B3AB7@fritzm.org> <3688EF89-0ACB-4AAF-BB04-CF0A599F323E@fritzm.org> Message-ID: This might be a reasonable stand-in for now: https://www.millsupply.com/knob-fan-speed-grumman-olson-53777.php?p=324629 > On Jan 9, 2021, at 4:25 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > >> On Jan 9, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: >> 3d-printable? > > It would seem so. I don?t have one to measure, though, and I haven?t seen any 3d models online yet. I could probably eyeball it, but anybody have one and care to measure? > > Does the original have a brass bushing? > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 9 22:18:38 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 20:18:38 -0800 Subject: Nine track file marks, Burroughs In-Reply-To: <5FFA48F9.8080000@pico-systems.com> References: <5FFA3370.7030809@pico-systems.com> <20210109212009.9A35033A2F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20210109225937.3A11333A421@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5FFA48F9.8080000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3442cbaf-70ed-e848-ed17-506383b5f78f@sydex.com> On 1/9/21 4:23 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/09/2021 04:59 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> Jon, >> >> >> >> Yes, you could.? The Burroughs doc seems to say the FM is supposed to be >> there between every group of labels and the preceding or following data, >> though. >> > Well, then the only thing you can do is Magna-See or one of the dry > magnetic viewers. I can't say that I've ever observed that, but then, I probably never looked for it either. 80 bytes starting with HDRx, etc. is a pretty good indicator of the nature of the block. I've seen lots of tapes with 81-character records, however. (Univac 36 bit systems for example). --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Sat Jan 9 23:06:36 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 00:06:36 -0500 Subject: Nine track file marks, Burroughs In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 09 Jan 2021 20:18:38 -0800.) <3442cbaf-70ed-e848-ed17-506383b5f78f@sydex.com> References: <3442cbaf-70ed-e848-ed17-506383b5f78f@sydex.com> <5FFA3370.7030809@pico-systems.com> <20210109212009.9A35033A2F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20210109225937.3A11333A421@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5FFA48F9.8080000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20210110050637.125C633A859@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I can't say that I've ever observed that, but then, I probably never > looked for it either. 80 bytes starting with HDRx, etc. is a pretty > good indicator of the nature of the block. I've seen lots of tapes > with 81-character records, however. (Univac 36 bit systems for > example). Drat. I was hoping you'd have this answer. ;) Looking for filemark-less transitions either way between 80-byte records with known label names, and other kinds of records, is what my detector script for this does. De From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 9 15:55:14 2021 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 16:55:14 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: <20210109190827.GA1135968@hugin3> Message-ID: <20210109215514.GB1081598@hugin3> On Sat, Jan 09, 2021 at 01:06:19PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > DEC standard 144 of any help? > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00144_B_DEC_STD_144_Disk_Standard_for_Recording_and_Handling_Bad_Sectors_Nov76.pdf > > Warner > Thanks for looking. That standard is only capable of marking bad sectors. It doesn't have the information on where the bad sectors were remapped to. I took a quick look at the DSM image. It looks like cylinder 511 is where the controller tables are. This cylinder does have a different format. The data didn't match this standard. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 9 16:59:34 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 15:59:34 -0700 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <20210109215514.GB1081598@hugin3> References: <20210109190827.GA1135968@hugin3> <20210109215514.GB1081598@hugin3> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 2:55 PM David Gesswein wrote: > On Sat, Jan 09, 2021 at 01:06:19PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > DEC standard 144 of any help? > > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00144_B_DEC_STD_144_Disk_Standard_for_Recording_and_Handling_Bad_Sectors_Nov76.pdf > > > > Warner > > > > Thanks for looking. > > That standard is only capable of marking bad sectors. It doesn't have the > information on where the bad sectors were remapped to. I took a quick look > at the DSM image. It looks like cylinder 511 is where the controller > tables are. This cylinder does have a different format. The data didn't > match this standard. > The rainbow has a different way to mark this stuff. Maybe there is some reuse in it? See "on disk format" in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/rainbow/ms-dos/QV068-GZ_Rainbow_MS-DOS_V2.05_Technical_Documentation_Nov84.pdf which seemed oddly complex for such an early standard. It talks about N spare tracks that remapped sectors land in... I've never had a disk image that uses them though... worth a shot in the absence of other data... Warner > From tomas at basun.net Sun Jan 10 03:39:15 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 10:39:15 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail 2/3/4/5 Message-ID: <87r1mtjflo.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hello everybody, Does anybody have any early versions of cc:Mail that they can share? I have v. 6 (1996) and 8 (1997). Am looking for versions from 1994/5. /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Sun Jan 10 05:41:48 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 12:41:48 +0100 Subject: Compuserve Message-ID: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi all, Does anybody know if the old Compuserve discussion forums are available anywhere now? I'm specifically interested in the ones about HP Palmtops and cc:Mail. /Tomas From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 13:57:17 2021 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:57:17 -0600 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 05:41 Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anybody know if the old Compuserve discussion forums are > available anywhere now? > > I'm specifically interested in the ones about HP Palmtops and cc:Mail. > As far as I know, nothing was saved. It was a massive loss for early online history. > From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 10 14:35:59 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 12:35:59 -0800 Subject: Probably the wrong list to ask References: Message-ID: This is probably the wrong list to ask, but maybe somebody could forward it to a more appropriate list. I have several of my father's books on electrical engineering. If anybody wants any of them, let me know. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Reference Data for Radio Engineers Federal Telephone and Radio Corporation, 1946 Matrix Analysis of Electric Networks, Le Corbulier, 1946 Radiotron Designers Handbook, Smith, 1941 Digital Computer and Control Engineering, Robert S. Ledley, 1960 Control System Synthesis, John G. Truxal, 1955 Communication Engineering, Everitt, 1937 Dyadic Circuit Analysis, Sah, 1939 Electrical Engineers' Handbook, Third Edition, Communications Electronics, Pender & McIlwain, 1936 Electrical Engineers' Handbook, Third Edition, Electric Power, Pender & Del Mar, 1936 Theory and Application of Microwaves, Bronwell & Beam, 1947 Electrical Catechism, C. S. Dearborn (signed) 1902 Electric Circuits, E.E. Staff, MIT, 1942 Transients in Linear Systems, Vol. 1, Lumped Constant Systems Gardner & Barnes, 1942 Tensor Analysis of Networks, Gabriel Kron, 1939 Analog Methods, Karplus & Soroka, 1959 Electrical Engineering Leaflets, Houston and Kennelley, 1898 Silent Sentinels: Protective Relays for AC & DC Systems Westinghouse Electic, undated, paperback From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Jan 10 16:03:40 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:03:40 -0500 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:57:17 -0600 Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 05:41 Tomas By via cctalk > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Does anybody know if the old Compuserve discussion forums are > > available anywhere now? > > > > I'm specifically interested in the ones about HP Palmtops and > > cc:Mail. > > As far as I know, nothing was saved. It was a massive loss for early > online history. > > > > Ditto for Delphi, The Source, etc. And Fidonet echos. Some of us tried to collect and preserve the Delphi TI Forum about 20 years ago when it was known to still exist on tapes, but nothing ever came of it that I'm aware of. There will have been pieces saved here and there, but mostly on floppies or old, failing hard disks or rotting tapes not stored safely, so if anyone wants to archive them, they need to do it ASAP. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 10 18:12:04 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:12:04 -0700 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On 1/10/21 3:03 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > Fidonet echos. I have a copy of a friend's BBS from back in the early 2000's. I'm sure that there is a way to extract messages from the echos. It's Synchronet if anyone wants to direct me how to extract things. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 10 18:45:54 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 18:45:54 -0600 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> At 04:03 PM 1/10/2021, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: >There will have been pieces saved here and there, but mostly on floppies or old, >failing hard disks or rotting tapes not stored safely, so if anyone >wants to archive them, they need to do it ASAP. From '85 until '94 or so, I saved my transcripts from visiting CompuServe, PeopleLink, Delphi, Genie, BIX, the Well, etc. I probably focused on Amiga forums. There are some CAD and 3D animation and programmer and Atari and Tandy M-100 forums, too. I was often free-flagged on CIS and many other services so surfing was free. For the kids out there, in today's dollars CompuServe was about $20 an hour. I had largely automated my visits with Pro-YAM on a PC. Log in, grab my personal email, upload the outgoing mail, scrape the forums I wanted to read, save it all to a text file, and then I'd read and edit in Brief at my leisure. Some of the time, my visits were not scripted. Then I'd squeeze them all into floppy-sized ZIPs for archiving. At some point I copied all those floppies to the active storage I use and backup now. My archives aren't pristine backups. I erased many posts that I thought were uninteresting at the time. As I read, I compulsively reformatted paragraphs with Brief's word-wrap macro. The largest part of my archive was CompuServe. In 2015 I wrote a little Perl parser to separate individual forum posts. I have about 400 megs of messages, on the order of 525,000 messages. I split each post into its own XML file, tagging the pieces (from, to, subject, etc.) I've left the hard part of constructing the web software to make it all readable and searchable. There are a few problems to solve. You'd want to impose some structure on it all. A topic such as "Amiga" had several forums... user, programmer, arts, vendors. Enter a forum and it would tell you the range of message numbers available and the number of the last one you've read. At that point I'd generally say "read all new." Each forum had a dozen or so numbered sections. Sections had names and they changed over time. Posts have a number and replies mention the parent message in the subject line, so they're kind of threaded. An example: #: 126608 S0/Sysop's Corner 29-Oct-95 00:20:12 Sb: #126546-#Problem Uploading Files Fm: Betty Clay 76702,337 To: Shawn/Silent Paw 74777,2602 (X) This would be caused by the entire forum running out of blocks in the library. Steve handles that, and I'm sure he has noticed and requested more by now. It is quite likely that we won't get them before Monday, though. Sometimes there's no one around to handle the request on weekends. Like this message, some sections were "sysop" and perhaps should be considered non-public. My transcripts also have stuff from before and after the forum posts. Who knows, maybe someone would find interesting the "What's new this week" intro menu you'd see at login. Or better yet, the file libraries. Each section had a "data library". Each file showed a filename, timestamp and size, uploader PPN and name, and title line and keywords and a paragraph of description. I have some listings of the file areas. I may also have the original files I downloaded. All that could be linked into a new web version, too. Maybe there are some text-based public live group chats (conferences), too. So how could you organize all that into a web database and interface? It has some similarities to Usenet posts. But not quite. The sections change over time. It would also make sense for me to improve my parser to separate out each email I sent or received. I'd be eager to release the public forum posts but I also don't want to release my private emails. Am I going to trust my parser to have never made a mistake? Or do I need to read a half-million posts to confirm it didn't? I have to believe that other people saved transcripts of CompuServe forums if not other services, too. Ideally there could be a way to add everyone's messages to the reconstruction. Indeed, google ' "Sb:" "Fm:" "To:" sysop cis ' and you'll see other bits and pieces of CompuServe transcripts. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Sb%3A%22+%22Fm%3A%22+%22To%3A%22+sysop+cis I don't know what it was like inside CIS back then, but I can't help but wonder if any magtape archives left the building. I asked an Amiga forum owner if he saved anything... he said "no" but maybe other forum owners did. As an aside, keep in mind that the people running CIS forums held a contract with CIS and they were paid. For many, it was their sole income. Some ran several forums and made quite a bit of money at it. I was very surprised to learn the web-based http://forums.compuserve.com/ existed until three-four years ago. - John From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 10 19:38:02 2021 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 01:38:02 +0000 Subject: interesting manual find - usermanual.wiki Message-ID: Ran across this, give it a try. There are tons of old (and new) manuals in there. Randy From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 10 19:38:34 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:38:34 -0800 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 1/10/21 4:45 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 04:03 PM 1/10/2021, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: >> There will have been pieces saved here and there, but mostly on floppies or old, >> failing hard disks or rotting tapes not stored safely, so if anyone >> wants to archive them, they need to do it ASAP. I wonder if MS archived their areas from CIS--at one point, it was the primary avenue for MS OEM support--for example, you requested a code for a vendor-specific 16-bit DLL on Windows 3. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 10 20:04:53 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 19:04:53 -0700 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 3:03 PM James B DiGriz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:57:17 -0600 > Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 05:41 Tomas By via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Does anybody know if the old Compuserve discussion forums are > > > available anywhere now? > > > > > > I'm specifically interested in the ones about HP Palmtops and > > > cc:Mail. > > > > As far as I know, nothing was saved. It was a massive loss for early > > online history. > > > > > > > > > Ditto for Delphi, The Source, etc. And Fidonet echos. Some of us tried > to collect and preserve the Delphi TI Forum about 20 years ago when it > was known to still exist on tapes, but nothing ever came of it that I'm > aware of. > I have some fidonet echos for the DEC Rainbow I downloaded from one of the archives... There will have been pieces saved here and there, but mostly on floppies or > old, > failing hard disks or rotting tapes not stored safely, so if anyone > wants to archive them, they need to do it ASAP. > Yes. Indeed. Warner > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Jan 10 20:16:06 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 21:16:06 -0500 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20210110211606.0f367d2e@dragonsweb.org> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:12:04 -0700 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/10/21 3:03 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > > Fidonet echos. > > I have a copy of a friend's BBS from back in the early 2000's. > > I'm sure that there is a way to extract messages from the echos. > > It's Synchronet if anyone wants to direct me how to extract things. > > > Synchronet is still very much "a thing". I'm not familiar with the message base format it uses, and a lot will depend on the version you have, but there should be utilities available for exporting messages directly from a mounted disk image, or at least a running instance. Should something be available on the Synchronet website or Vertrauen BBS. There is a support echo still on Fidonet, too, iirc. Worst case you can read messages to a capture log, or export .QWK to an offline reader with any version since the early '90s. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 10 21:28:54 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 20:28:54 -0700 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210110211606.0f367d2e@dragonsweb.org> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210110211606.0f367d2e@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <6ab51ea8-72de-0b0b-75e1-78b30027cafe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 1/10/21 7:16 PM, James B DiGriz wrote: > Synchronet is still very much "a thing". Yes, and no. Yes, there is /a/ product named Synchronet, probably from the same vendor or subsidiary. However, I don't think that it is the /same/ product. More specifically, I believe that contemporary Synchronet is more of a suite of packages. And those packages are traditional Linux packages. I believe the old DOS / Windows (?) Synchronet package is LONG since dead. > I'm not familiar with the message base format it uses, "JAM" message format comes to mind from conversations with the original SYSOP. Though I don't know if that's what Synchronet is using or something else from conversstion collisions. > and a lot will depend on the version you have, I'm guessing it's from '95 - '99. 2.x or 3.x comes to mind. > but there should be utilities available for exporting messages directly > from a mounted disk image, or at least a running instance. I suspect the best thing to do would be to restore the VM, boot it, and see what I can find. MS-DOS 5.x or 6.x don't need many resources. I think the machine had a ~300 MB hard drive and ~32 MB of memory (if that). > Should something be available on the Synchronet website or Vertrauen > BBS. There is a support echo still on Fidonet, too, iirc. Is the echo /active/? I know that there are LOTS of newsgroups still in active files on news servers, even though the the newsgroup hasn't seen traffic in years. > Worst case you can read messages to a capture log, or export .QWK to > an offline reader with any version since the early '90s. I'm sure there's something clever that we can do to get data out. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 11 08:05:11 2021 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 06:05:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <6ab51ea8-72de-0b0b-75e1-78b30027cafe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210110211606.0f367d2e@dragonsweb.org> <6ab51ea8-72de-0b0b-75e1-78b30027cafe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 2021, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 1/10/21 7:16 PM, James B DiGriz wrote: >> Synchronet is still very much "a thing". > > Yes, and no. > > Yes, there is /a/ product named Synchronet, probably from the same vendor or > subsidiary. However, I don't think that it is the /same/ product. > It's the same package, by the same author. Rob Swindell(author) released Synchronet as open source a number of years ago. I currently run v3.18c, which is the current release version. You can run it in Windows, Linux, or *BSD. MS-DOS and OS/2 versions are also available under the "legacy" branch. Downloads: http://www.synchro.net/download.html If v3 won't import the DOS message bases automagically, I'm quite sure that if you email Rob, he can help make this happen. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 11 08:21:56 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 09:21:56 -0500 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <20210109215514.GB1081598@hugin3> References: <20210109190827.GA1135968@hugin3> <20210109215514.GB1081598@hugin3> Message-ID: > On Jan 9, 2021, at 4:55 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 09, 2021 at 01:06:19PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> DEC standard 144 of any help? >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/standards/EL-00144_B_DEC_STD_144_Disk_Standard_for_Recording_and_Handling_Bad_Sectors_Nov76.pdf >> >> Warner >> > > Thanks for looking. > > That standard is only capable of marking bad sectors. It doesn't have the > information on where the bad sectors were remapped to. I took a quick look > at the DSM image. It looks like cylinder 511 is where the controller > tables are. This cylinder does have a different format. The data didn't > match this standard. DEC Std 144 is for older disks, not MSCP. It is the format for telling the OS where the bad sectors are, so the file system creation tool can mark those sectors as unavailable. That doesn't involve remapping (at least not on the OS I know). The bad sectors still exist in the address space, they are just not free so they won't be used. The MSCP revectoring is a more complex mechanism where the controller tweaks the logical block numbering address space so it appears to be error-free. I assume it's a generalization of the spare-sector feature of the RM80, but as others have pointed out, with MSCP this was an internal matter of the controller and I don't know of any DEC standard for it. In fact, the details are likely to depend on the properties of individual drives. paul From ethan at 757.org Mon Jan 11 09:57:29 2021 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 10:57:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I was often free-flagged on CIS and many other services so surfing was free. > For the kids out there, in today's dollars CompuServe was about $20 an hour. As a young lad, the high costs of things like CompuServe is why I stuck to BBS systems, until the internet came along. > Perl parser to separate individual forum posts. I have about 400 megs of > messages, on the order of 525,000 messages. I split each post > into its own XML file, tagging the pieces (from, to, subject, etc.) That is awesome! You should definitely get that stuff on the web!! > I've left the hard part of constructing the web software to make it all > readable and searchable. > #: 126608 S0/Sysop's Corner > 29-Oct-95 00:20:12 > Sb: #126546-#Problem Uploading Files > Fm: Betty Clay 76702,337 > To: Shawn/Silent Paw 74777,2602 (X) > > This would be caused by the entire forum running out of blocks in the library. > Steve handles that, and I'm sure he has noticed and requested more by now. It > is quite likely that we won't get them before Monday, though. Sometimes there's > no one around to handle the request on weekends. > > Like this message, some sections were "sysop" and perhaps should be > considered non-public. > > My transcripts also have stuff from before and after the forum posts. > Who knows, maybe someone would find interesting the "What's new this week" > intro menu you'd see at login. > > Or better yet, the file libraries. Each section had a "data library". > Each file showed a filename, timestamp and size, uploader PPN and > name, and title line and keywords and a paragraph of description. > I have some listings of the file areas. I may also have the original > files I downloaded. All that could be linked into a new web version, too. > > Maybe there are some text-based public live group chats (conferences), too. > > So how could you organize all that into a web database and interface? Could you put a text front end on it that emulates the original CIS? A modern emulator that emulated the UI from the original on the internet.. > It would also make sense for me to improve my parser to separate > out each email I sent or received. I'd be eager to release the public > forum posts but I also don't want to release my private emails. Makes sense > Am I going to trust my parser to have never made a mistake? > Or do I need to read a half-million posts to confirm it didn't? Search for your name? > I have to believe that other people saved transcripts of CompuServe > forums if not other services, too. Ideally there could be a way to add > everyone's messages to the reconstruction. > > Indeed, google ' "Sb:" "Fm:" "To:" sysop cis ' and you'll see > other bits and pieces of CompuServe transcripts. > > https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Sb%3A%22+%22Fm%3A%22+%22To%3A%22+sysop+cis > > I don't know what it was like inside CIS back then, but I can't help > but wonder if any magtape archives left the building. I asked > an Amiga forum owner if he saved anything... he said "no" but > maybe other forum owners did. > > As an aside, keep in mind that the people running CIS forums held a > contract with CIS and they were paid. For many, it was their sole income. > Some ran several forums and made quite a bit of money at it. > > I was very surprised to learn the web-based http://forums.compuserve.com/ > existed until three-four years ago. > - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 11 10:34:44 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 10:34:44 -0600 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210111165535.4C0FE273F8@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:57 AM 1/11/2021, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >>So how could you organize all that into a web database and interface? > >Could you put a text front end on it that emulates the original CIS? I'd say the first step is defining a SQL database structure to hold it all, then the code to display it, and sure, maybe an interactive emulation would be nifty... but note that CompuServe messages disappeared on their own. A forum could only hold so many, and the oldest were flushed. So an emulation would need to pick a moment in time to emulate. In today's interface style, I'd say you'd want to be able to search it all, then view a message in context with the rest of its thread. >>Am I going to trust my parser to have never made a mistake? >>Or do I need to read a half-million posts to confirm it didn't? > >Search for your name? Not that simple. After you'd navigated to the email area and asked to display a particular waiting message, it only showed date / from / subject at the top, and at least in 1995, it actually put the "Distribution: To: John Foust - Syndesis Corporation > [76004,1763]" at the bottom after the message! For Internet gateway'd email, it showed the full message as is, with the raw headers and/or "Content-type:" and left you to figure it out on your own. - John From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Jan 11 17:32:32 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 18:32:32 -0500 Subject: ISO Technico info, pics, doc scans, etc. Message-ID: <20210111183232.20332b30@dragonsweb.org> Models SS-16, TEC-9900-SS, TR-9000-SS aka Technico/Rosse TR-9000-SS "Super Star", or any other. I think a couple of list members have indicated here or elsewhere in the past that they had SS-16's at least. Thanks for any help, jbdigriz From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 00:16:19 2021 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 00:16:19 -0600 Subject: interesting manual find - usermanual.wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:38 PM Randy Dawson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Ran across this, give it a try. > > There are tons of old (and new) manuals in there. > > Randy Strange site, no indication who runs it. It looks like a search engine but they appear to host all of the documents their search comes up with. But I don't think they're original scans. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 00:25:30 2021 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 00:25:30 -0600 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 6:46 PM John Foust via cctalk wrote > > From '85 until '94 or so, I saved my transcripts from visiting > CompuServe, PeopleLink, Delphi, Genie, BIX, the Well, etc. > This is an incredible archive on its own. Are you willing to share the source files? I'd enjoy just wandering through the raw data. It's probably been over 30 years since I've even seen the CIS forum message format (not counting a few moments ago, of course.) -j From tomas at basun.net Tue Jan 12 05:48:53 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 12:48:53 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail error code Message-ID: <87y2gyidei.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi all, Does anybody here know what cc:Mail error code 3075 means? (Haha, I thought not) /Tomas From spedraja at gmail.com Tue Jan 12 07:13:35 2021 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 14:13:35 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail error code In-Reply-To: <87y2gyidei.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87y2gyidei.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: Client or Server? El mar., 12 ene. 2021 12:49, Tomas By via cctalk escribi?: > Hi all, > > Does anybody here know what cc:Mail error code 3075 means? > > (Haha, I thought not) > > /Tomas > From tomas at basun.net Tue Jan 12 07:16:20 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 14:16:20 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail error code In-Reply-To: References: <87y2gyidei.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87h7nmi9cr.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 14:13:35 +0100, Sergio Pedraja wrote: > Client or Server? Server. `Database error' /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Tue Jan 12 07:59:34 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 14:59:34 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail error code In-Reply-To: <87h7nmi9cr.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87y2gyidei.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87h7nmi9cr.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <871reqi7cp.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 14:16:20 +0100, Tomas By wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 14:13:35 +0100, Sergio Pedraja wrote: > > Client or Server? > > Server. `Database error' ? /Tomas From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Jan 12 09:56:23 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:56:23 -0500 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210112105623.651c6039@dragonsweb.org> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 00:25:30 -0600 Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 6:46 PM John Foust via cctalk > wrote > > > > From '85 until '94 or so, I saved my transcripts from visiting > > CompuServe, PeopleLink, Delphi, Genie, BIX, the Well, etc. > > > > This is an incredible archive on its own. Are you willing to share > the source files? I'd enjoy just wandering through the raw data. > It's probably been over 30 years since I've even seen the CIS forum > message format (not counting a few moments ago, of course.) > > -j > I agree with John that some curation will be in order here before making stuff public accessible. And he's right that building the database would be the first order of business. Reasonably straightforward to bolt different interfaces to that. I'm kicking myself right now because I had forgotten that archive.org hosts a web interface to an (incomplete) archive of the Compuserve web forums. I think this is based on the archiveteam emergency scrape of 2017. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. There is also a 64GB tranche of raw SC-40 and SCSI FE disk images on IA. And like I said there are bits and pieces here and there. Some of the CIS TI file libraries are on whtech, for instance. Something people could easily add to would be great. jbdigriz From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 12 10:44:45 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:44:45 -0600 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210112105623.651c6039@dragonsweb.org> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> <20210112105623.651c6039@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20210112164510.951154E712@mx2.ezwind.net> At 09:56 AM 1/12/2021, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: >I'm kicking myself right now because I had forgotten that archive.org >hosts a web interface to an (incomplete) archive of the Compuserve web >forums. I think this is based on the archiveteam emergency scrape of >2017. Do you have a link to it? > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. There is also a 64GB tranche of >raw SC-40 and SCSI FE disk images on IA. Disk images of what, from where? CompuServe? - John From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Jan 12 11:08:14 2021 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 12:08:14 -0500 Subject: Compuserve In-Reply-To: <20210112164510.951154E712@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <87sg79hvcz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <20210110170340.2f7dd603@dragonsweb.org> <20210111004620.845D6273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> <20210112105623.651c6039@dragonsweb.org> <20210112164510.951154E712@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20210112120814.010b3da7@dragonsweb.org> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:44:45 -0600 John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 09:56 AM 1/12/2021, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > >I'm kicking myself right now because I had forgotten that archive.org > >hosts a web interface to an (incomplete) archive of the Compuserve > >web forums. I think this is based on the archiveteam emergency > >scrape of 2017. > > Do you have a link to it? https://web.archive.org/web/sitemap/forums.compuserve.com > > > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. There is also a 64GB tranche of > >raw SC-40 and SCSI FE disk images on IA. > > Disk images of what, from where? CompuServe? Yes, Compuserve. 34GB, though, not 64. My bad. https://archive.org/details/2015-05-compuserve-raw-disks An attempt by Christian Mund to use SIMH to boot and inspect these disks is described here: https://medium.com/@mpnet/trying-to-make-sense-of-compuserve-server-hard-disk-images-posted-on-archive-org-b1c62ce6012b jbdigriz jbdigriz From lists at y42.org Thu Jan 14 05:20:05 2021 From: lists at y42.org (Why 42? The lists account.) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:20:05 +0100 Subject: ICL PERQ 2 T2 Micropolis 1303 spinning down. In-Reply-To: References: <20210102183435.GA1253701@hugin3> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 09, 2021 at 04:16:59PM +0100, Mattis Lind via cctech wrote: > The "shim" method worked fine. The drive spun up and I managed to dump it. > Imade six dumps and the same five sectors were bad on every read I did. Fantastic work! FYI, The info. I have here is that the defect management on the 5.25 Perq disks was done via software. There are several ICL Customer Service Information sheets describing how to deal with bad blocks, mostly involving running utilities like icheck, ncheck, bbadd and bbswap. But I think all of that relates to the PNX operating system ... > So now I have a nice dump of the PERQ 2 system. Wonder what it is on > it? The snippit you included suggests (to me) that the installed OS is POS, the orginal "Perq Operating System". Can I get a copy? Cheers, Robb. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 14 10:39:05 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 11:39:05 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter Message-ID: I'm wondering how to do hard drive formatting, which is likely to be needed when working with emulated disks in David Gesswein's MFM emulator. As far as I can tell, RT-11 can do this. At least I have a source code printout for such a formatter. But while I can find a hard drive image of RT V5 for Pro, I haven't found any floppy-bootable images. And I think it's a bit tricky to create one. I knew, long ago for V2... Any suggestions? Any alternative sources for a formatter? I guess I really should consider typing in the core of that formatter and adding it to RSTS. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 14 12:25:30 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:25:30 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hm. I remember that POS 2.0 and above would just format the hard disk and go during the install. Likewise I don't know if you can have multiple hard disks in P/OS so that's a pain in the tail. Boot from floppies and just init the raw disk. C On 1/14/2021 11:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I'm wondering how to do hard drive formatting, which is likely to be needed when working with emulated disks in David Gesswein's MFM emulator. > > As far as I can tell, RT-11 can do this. At least I have a source code printout for such a formatter. But while I can find a hard drive image of RT V5 for Pro, I haven't found any floppy-bootable images. And I think it's a bit tricky to create one. I knew, long ago for V2... > > Any suggestions? Any alternative sources for a formatter? I guess I really should consider typing in the core of that formatter and adding it to RSTS. > > paul > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 14 12:28:30 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:28:30 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> I'll give that a try, thanks Chris. The hardware supports multiple drives just fine (one per controller). The power supply shuts down with three hard drives, though, the surge current is too high. I could work around that if I ever needed two. Two drives is not a problem, and my RSTS code supports this. paul > On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Hm. I remember that POS 2.0 and above would just format the hard disk and go during the install. Likewise I don't know if you can have multiple hard disks in P/OS so that's a pain in the tail. > > Boot from floppies and just init the raw disk. > > C > > > On 1/14/2021 11:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I'm wondering how to do hard drive formatting, which is likely to be needed when working with emulated disks in David Gesswein's MFM emulator. >> As far as I can tell, RT-11 can do this. At least I have a source code printout for such a formatter. But while I can find a hard drive image of RT V5 for Pro, I haven't found any floppy-bootable images. And I think it's a bit tricky to create one. I knew, long ago for V2... >> Any suggestions? Any alternative sources for a formatter? I guess I really should consider typing in the core of that formatter and adding it to RSTS. >> paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 14 12:42:11 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:42:11 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> References: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> Hm. I did not know this, although the RMD process does show SY1: as well as SY0: so it makes sense. I'll have to try that. The power supply in the Pro is somewhat limited, wonder if you set the drives up to power up in sequence if it would hold. Longer term Pro project for me is to figure out if/how to get I/D support in P/OS. I don't know if 3.2 supports split I/D and right now the thought of making 30+ floppies is making my head hurt. Is there a hardware emulator that can emulate RX50's from images to a Pro? Been wondering that... C On 1/14/2021 1:28 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I'll give that a try, thanks Chris. > > The hardware supports multiple drives just fine (one per controller). The power supply shuts down with three hard drives, though, the surge current is too high. I could work around that if I ever needed two. Two drives is not a problem, and my RSTS code supports this. > > paul > >> On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hm. I remember that POS 2.0 and above would just format the hard disk and go during the install. Likewise I don't know if you can have multiple hard disks in P/OS so that's a pain in the tail. >> >> Boot from floppies and just init the raw disk. >> >> C >> >> >> On 1/14/2021 11:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm wondering how to do hard drive formatting, which is likely to be needed when working with emulated disks in David Gesswein's MFM emulator. >>> As far as I can tell, RT-11 can do this. At least I have a source code printout for such a formatter. But while I can find a hard drive image of RT V5 for Pro, I haven't found any floppy-bootable images. And I think it's a bit tricky to create one. I knew, long ago for V2... >>> Any suggestions? Any alternative sources for a formatter? I guess I really should consider typing in the core of that formatter and adding it to RSTS. >>> paul > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 14 12:52:03 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:52:03 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> References: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> > On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:42 PM, Chris Zach wrote: > > ... > Is there a hardware emulator that can emulate RX50's from images to a Pro? Been wondering that... Perhaps David Gesswein's MFM emulator could be modified to do that. You might ask him. I don't think it does so out of the box, though. The signal frequencies are much lower than those of hard drives. Some others make products that claim to offer the capability, https://www.drem.info is one (mentioned by David) and I also found this https://www.shopfloorautomations.com/hardware/floppy-connect/ . I know nothing about either. Standard PC floppy formats use 9 sectors per track but normal drives can handle 10-sector DEC formats too. If the emulators are done right they should handle that as well, but of course you'd have to confirm that. paul From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 13:13:36 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 20:13:36 +0100 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> References: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: torsdag 14 januari 2021 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk : > > > > On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:42 PM, Chris Zach wrote: > > > > ... > > Is there a hardware emulator that can emulate RX50's from images to a > Pro? Been wondering that... As far as the releasnotes tell FlashFloppy by Keir Fraser support RX33 and RX50. https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy/blob/master/RELEASE_NOTES > > Perhaps David Gesswein's MFM emulator could be modified to do that. You > might ask him. I don't think it does so out of the box, though. The > signal frequencies are much lower than those of hard drives. > > Some others make products that claim to offer the capability, > https://www.drem.info is one (mentioned by David) and I also found this > https://www.shopfloorautomations.com/hardware/floppy-connect/ . I know > nothing about either. Standard PC floppy formats use 9 sectors per track > but normal drives can handle 10-sector DEC formats too. If the emulators > are done right they should handle that as well, but of course you'd have to > confirm that. > > paul > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jan 14 13:14:08 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:14:08 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> References: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/14/21 1:52 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:42 PM, Chris Zach wrote: >> >> ... >> Is there a hardware emulator that can emulate RX50's from images to a Pro? Been wondering that... > > Perhaps David Gesswein's MFM emulator could be modified to do that. You might ask him. I don't think it does so out of the box, though. The signal frequencies are much lower than those of hard drives. > > Some others make products that claim to offer the capability, https://www.drem.info is one (mentioned by David) and I also found this https://www.shopfloorautomations.com/hardware/floppy-connect/ . I know nothing about either. Standard PC floppy formats use 9 sectors per track but normal drives can handle 10-sector DEC formats too. If the emulators are done right they should handle that as well, but of course you'd have to confirm that. > What about the GOTEK with modified firmware that they are talking about in other groups? bill From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 14 14:23:44 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:23:44 -0800 Subject: Books I offered References: Message-ID: The books I offered last week have all been spoken for. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From bdweb at mindspring.com Thu Jan 14 14:24:49 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 15:24:49 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: References: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <444e0b6d-07a2-602d-250c-65b957a4aaef@mindspring.com> I've successfully used a DREM-2 (https://www.drem.info/) with my Pro 380 for both floppy and hard disk emulation. --Bjoren On 1/14/2021 2:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/14/21 1:52 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:42 PM, Chris Zach wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> Is there a hardware emulator that can emulate RX50's from images to >>> a Pro? Been wondering that... >> >> Perhaps David Gesswein's MFM emulator could be modified to do that.? >> You might ask him.? I don't think it does so out of the box, though.? >> The signal frequencies are much lower than those of hard drives. >> >> Some others make products that claim to offer the capability, >> https://www.drem.info is one (mentioned by David) and I also found >> this https://www.shopfloorautomations.com/hardware/floppy-connect/ . >> I know nothing about either.? Standard PC floppy formats use 9 >> sectors per track but normal drives can handle 10-sector DEC formats >> too.? If the emulators are done right they should handle that as >> well, but of course you'd have to confirm that. >> > > What about the GOTEK with modified firmware that they are talking > about in other groups? > > bill > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 14 14:53:23 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 15:53:23 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <444e0b6d-07a2-602d-250c-65b957a4aaef@mindspring.com> References: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> <444e0b6d-07a2-602d-250c-65b957a4aaef@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3f40210b-3de7-9af2-3393-e31fad35cfc4@alembic.crystel.com> Cool! I just bought one of the G thingies ($30 on Amazon), will try loading up the modified firmware and see if it works. Just easier than making an endless pile of floppies I will only use once or twice (I already have the whole POS 2.0 set). So does a 380 support programs in split I/D? If not I need to start hacking it to do so as 64k limits are for the birds.... C On 1/14/2021 3:24 PM, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > I've successfully used a DREM-2 (https://www.drem.info/) with my Pro 380 > for both floppy and hard disk emulation. > > --Bjoren > > On 1/14/2021 2:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/14/21 1:52 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:42 PM, Chris Zach wrote: >>>> >>>> ... >>>> Is there a hardware emulator that can emulate RX50's from images to >>>> a Pro? Been wondering that... >>> >>> Perhaps David Gesswein's MFM emulator could be modified to do that. >>> You might ask him.? I don't think it does so out of the box, though. >>> The signal frequencies are much lower than those of hard drives. >>> >>> Some others make products that claim to offer the capability, >>> https://www.drem.info is one (mentioned by David) and I also found >>> this https://www.shopfloorautomations.com/hardware/floppy-connect/ . >>> I know nothing about either.? Standard PC floppy formats use 9 >>> sectors per track but normal drives can handle 10-sector DEC formats >>> too.? If the emulators are done right they should handle that as >>> well, but of course you'd have to confirm that. >>> >> >> What about the GOTEK with modified firmware that they are talking >> about in other groups? >> >> bill >> >> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 17:10:12 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:10:12 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <3f40210b-3de7-9af2-3393-e31fad35cfc4@alembic.crystel.com> References: <568E2FA4-8972-4AF1-ACBE-7725C03D53D1@comcast.net> <4f2f78b6-87cc-f368-7aac-b8ab7821a5a4@alembic.crystel.com> <83AD2710-F66B-42FD-A5A8-CAA70E6154AE@comcast.net> <444e0b6d-07a2-602d-250c-65b957a4aaef@mindspring.com> <3f40210b-3de7-9af2-3393-e31fad35cfc4@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 3:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > So does a 380 support programs in split I/D? If not I need to start > hacking it to do so as 64k limits are for the birds... The Pro380 has a J-11 chip. It should support Split I&D just fine on any OS that knows about it. The real trick is what Operating Systems and what versions support (or requires it, in the case of 2.11BSD) Split I&D when the hardware allows it. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 14 19:44:55 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 20:44:55 -0500 Subject: APL\360 Message-ID: I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching for Knuth stuff. The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ . It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of the source code. And it points to an executable version, apparently a packaged up Hercules running that code. Nice. I'll have to give it a try. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 14 19:59:49 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 17:59:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <3f40210b-3de7-9af2-3393-e31fad35cfc4@alembic.crystel.com> from Chris Zach via cctalk at "Jan 14, 21 03:53:23 pm" Message-ID: <202101150159.10F1xnTf18939952@floodgap.com> > > I've successfully used a DREM-2 (https://www.drem.info/) with my Pro 380 > > for both floppy and hard disk emulation. > > Cool! I just bought one of the G thingies ($30 on Amazon), will try > loading up the modified firmware and see if it works. Just easier than > making an endless pile of floppies I will only use once or twice (I > already have the whole POS 2.0 set). Which firmware is this? The DREM-2 also interests me since I'd like to have a reproducible Venix install on my PRO 380 and it seems to handle both the floppy and HD side. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 14 20:22:39 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:22:39 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> On 1/14/21 5:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching for Knuth stuff. > > The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ . It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of the source code. And it points to an executable version, apparently a packaged up Hercules running that code. > > Nice. I'll have to give it a try. I recall Neil Lincoln (he of CDC/ETA) relating that he taught APL to his kids and his wife (APL was pretty much a natural for the STAR) as a first programming language. I took some time to learn it fairly well, but never really had any opportunity to use it much, so it's gone into the memory dustbin of old never-used languages of my brain. A co-worker back when would never use the name of the book or the abbreviation. He always referred to it as "that Iverson language" or "TIL". And it's comparatively easy to write short, perfectly opaque code in APL; probably more so than other common languages. --Chuck From turing at shaw.ca Thu Jan 14 20:28:32 2021 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 19:28:32 -0700 (MST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I remember colleagues competing for the most 'interesting' one-liner in APL that actually did something useful, in university. I wrote several different kinds of simulator, one of which generated APL code on the fly that was then executed... plus a database-or-two. I've been actively collecting APL memorabilia and books for years now... if I could find an MCM/70 it would be awesome... From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 6:22:39 PM Subject: Re: APL\360 On 1/14/21 5:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching for Knuth stuff. > > The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ . It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of the source code. And it points to an executable version, apparently a packaged up Hercules running that code. > > Nice. I'll have to give it a try. I recall Neil Lincoln (he of CDC/ETA) relating that he taught APL to his kids and his wife (APL was pretty much a natural for the STAR) as a first programming language. I took some time to learn it fairly well, but never really had any opportunity to use it much, so it's gone into the memory dustbin of old never-used languages of my brain. A co-worker back when would never use the name of the book or the abbreviation. He always referred to it as "that Iverson language" or "TIL". And it's comparatively easy to write short, perfectly opaque code in APL; probably more so than other common languages. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 14 20:42:34 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:42:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: APL was terse. You could do amazing things with very short source code. Extremely well suited for scientific programming. (I used it on a timesharing terminal at Goddard Space Flight Center half a century ago) It had a lot of operators. So much so that it had to expand the character set. Typically, it was used on a Selectric based terminal, with a special type-ball, and added labels pasted on the keys. Unlike English based languages, such as FORTRAN or COBOL, anybody other than an APL programmer could not even guess what a line of APL did. As a FIRST language, it had a first day steep learning curve learning new operators. But, also, as a FIRST language, it was nice that it used an arrow, rather than an "equals sign" for assignment. I remember a cartoon in Datamation?? 4 decades ago, of some egyptologists looking at some hieroglyphics and declaring, "It looks like a subset of APL" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Jan 14 20:58:41 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 02:58:41 +0000 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20210115025841.GB24928@lonesome.com> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 06:42:34PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > APL was terse. That's a nice way of saying "It was a write-only language". Even back when my brain still worked 100% I could only remember what the code I had just written actually _did_ for 24-48 hours. After that it was easier to rewrite from scratch. mcl From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 14 21:01:44 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:01:44 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <202101150159.10F1xnTf18939952@floodgap.com> References: <202101150159.10F1xnTf18939952@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3c7a3047-d2d1-2ee5-419f-8c6d6e660b7d@alembic.crystel.com> On 1/14/2021 8:59 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> I've successfully used a DREM-2 (https://www.drem.info/) with my Pro 380 >>> for both floppy and hard disk emulation. >> >> Cool! I just bought one of the G thingies ($30 on Amazon), will try >> loading up the modified firmware and see if it works. Just easier than >> making an endless pile of floppies I will only use once or twice (I >> already have the whole POS 2.0 set). > > Which firmware is this? Mattis pointed this out: https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy For $30 what's the worst that could happen. > The DREM-2 also interests me since I'd like to have a reproducible Venix > install on my PRO 380 and it seems to handle both the floppy and HD side. I have enough MFM drives to last forever, although it would probably be faster to have a SSD drive. We'll see. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 14 21:31:35 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 19:31:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <20210115025841.GB24928@lonesome.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20210115025841.GB24928@lonesome.com> Message-ID: >> APL was terse. On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Mark Linimon wrote: > That's a nice way of saying "It was a write-only language". > > Even back when my brain still worked 100% I could only remember what > the code I had just written actually _did_ for 24-48 hours. After > that it was easier to rewrite from scratch. It was, indeed, a "write-only language", although I didn't have difficulty reading my own code for a year. Who else could read it? Presumably nobody. Whereas, a COBOL or FORTRAN program is potentially readable by any COBOL or FORTRAN programmer. But, in calling it "terse", I also meant that the source code density was extraordinarily high. Thousands of lines of other languages could be done in dozens of lines of APL, unlike the verbosity of other "high level languages". Which, of course, substantially reinforced its opacity to any but the programmer. But, when using it instead of a calculator for one-time processing (programs that were not intended to be reused in the future), nothing could compare for inverting a matrix, etc. "I want you to give me a least squares curve fit of E Vs L for this subset of the data", . . . 'Course, when I questioned the use of two decimal digits for year in our datafiles (National Space Sciences Data Center, building 26 GSFC), I was assured that "NONE of what we do now has any possibility of being used again in 30 years!" And, THAT was the true Y2K problem. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bdweb at mindspring.com Thu Jan 14 21:42:53 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:42:53 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <202101150159.10F1xnTf18939952@floodgap.com> References: <202101150159.10F1xnTf18939952@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I should point out that, as far as I know, you can't use the floppy and hard disk emulation of the DREM-2 at the same time; it's one or the other. --Bjoren On 1/14/2021 8:59 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> I've successfully used a DREM-2 (https://www.drem.info/) with my Pro 380 >>> for both floppy and hard disk emulation. >> Cool! I just bought one of the G thingies ($30 on Amazon), will try >> loading up the modified firmware and see if it works. Just easier than >> making an endless pile of floppies I will only use once or twice (I >> already have the whole POS 2.0 set). > Which firmware is this? > > The DREM-2 also interests me since I'd like to have a reproducible Venix > install on my PRO 380 and it seems to handle both the floppy and HD side. > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 14 21:43:13 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 19:43:13 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> On 1/14/21 6:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > APL was terse. > > You could do amazing things with very short source code. > Extremely well suited for scientific programming. > (I used it on a timesharing terminal at Goddard Space Flight Center half > a century ago) > > It had a lot of operators.? So much so that it had to expand the > character set.? Typically, it was used on a Selectric based terminal, > with a special type-ball, and added labels pasted on the keys. > > Unlike English based languages, such as FORTRAN or COBOL, anybody other > than an APL programmer could not even guess what a line of APL did. APL was difficult for those used to traditional programming languages, not primarily because of the character set, but because it's basically a vector/matrix programming language. It's a different world from BASIC, for sure. Neil maintained that its strength lay in thinking about things in a non-scalar way. I'll give him that--programming on STAR, where a scalar was treated by the hardware as a vector of length 1 (and thus very slow because of startup overhead) certainly led you toward thinking about things in vector operations, just like APL. Here's the APL*STAR reference manual: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/Books/197409_APL%20Star%20Reference%20Manual_19980800B.pdf --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 14 21:55:52 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 19:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > It's a different world from BASIC, for sure. > > Neil maintained that its strength lay in thinking about things in a > non-scalar way. I'll give him that--programming on STAR, where a scalar > was treated by the hardware as a vector of length 1 (and thus very slow > because of startup overhead) certainly led you toward thinking about > things in vector operations, just like APL. > > Here's the APL*STAR reference manual: > > http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/Books/197409_APL%20Star%20Reference%20Manual_19980800B.pdf Thank you for that! You are right. At the time, it simply never occured to me that anybody would use it for anything other than matrix processing of scientific data. (MY view of the elephant) Yes, I suppose that somebody of sufficient skill COULD write accounting software with it, . . . But why? And, one of the advantages of COBOL for business programming was the possibility of checking somebody else's code. APL was intrinsically obfuscated code. From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Jan 14 22:35:55 2021 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 04:35:55 +0000 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20210115043555.GA4212@lonesome.com> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 07:55:52PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I suppose that somebody of sufficient skill COULD write > accounting software with it, . . . > But why? When I was living outside Dallas around 1988 or so, I knew a woman who had a job-for-life with an insurance company that ran their whole company on APL. Of course by that time she was sick of working on the same thing all the time, but they could not afford to let her go -- no one else could do any maintance to it. (I no longer remember the name of the insurance company ...) mcl From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 14 23:23:43 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 21:23:43 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: <654c4356-b012-2f79-d5a2-1005e030de92@sydex.com> On 1/14/21 7:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > You are right.? At the time, it simply never occured to me that anybody > would use it for anything other than matrix processing of scientific data. > (MY view of the elephant) The vector thing did strange things to your thinking. Any scalar instruction was basically timed at k+e, where k is the pipeline startup time and e is the actual time to do the operation. Vectors of length n basically had timings of k+ne. That lead to all sorts of interesting things, such as for N<1000, the fastest sort was a vector selection sort, not any of the traditional scalar methods such as Quicksort. Hashing a lookup table was often slower than simply performing a serial search. I wrote a text editor back around 1974 using vector instructions as a bootleg project. I found the same editor still in use in 1985 on the ETA-10 super. It was called OGNATE, for "oh god, not another text editor". So, you could see how APL was somehow appropriate to the architecture. Too bad that nobody really used it. FORTRAN, FORTRAN and more FORTRAN. I was able to speed up the OS resident by almost 30 percent by rewriting scalar code as vector and making some scalar optimizations. The implementation language was IMPL, a dialect of LRLTRAN. The instruction set on the STAR was, to put it mildly, huge. Later CYBER and ETA implementations stripped a lot of the more exotic instructions away--and added a dedicated scalar unit. Good times on a failed project... Now, of course, any major CPU has vector instructions squirreled away somewhere; e.g. Intel SSE, AVX, etc. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 15 08:16:05 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 09:16:05 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 14, 2021, at 10:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> It's a different world from BASIC, for sure. >> >> Neil maintained that its strength lay in thinking about things in a >> non-scalar way. I'll give him that--programming on STAR, where a scalar >> was treated by the hardware as a vector of length 1 (and thus very slow >> because of startup overhead) certainly led you toward thinking about >> things in vector operations, just like APL. >> >> Here's the APL*STAR reference manual: >> >> http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/Books/197409_APL%20Star%20Reference%20Manual_19980800B.pdf > > Thank you for that! > > You are right. At the time, it simply never occured to me that anybody would use it for anything other than matrix processing of scientific data. > (MY view of the elephant) > > Yes, I suppose that somebody of sufficient skill COULD write accounting software with it, . . . > But why? Interesting. I used APL around 1995 (with GNU APL, on a Solaris system). The application was code breaking programs for an online course in cryptanalysis taught by Alex Biryukov at Technion Haifa. Great course. It would be nice to clean up that implementation to use Unicode for its APL text. Did you know there's an ISO standard for APL? I have it somewhere. Another APL application I remember reading about was a microcode compiler for an RSA chip designed by Rivest, somewhere in the early 1980s if I remember right. It's documented in an article in the first issue of what was then Lambda magazine, later renamed to "VLSI design". Rivest mentioned either in the article or in a lecture at DEC that the microcode was converted to chip layout by a large APL program. I don't remember how large -- 500 lines? paul From kej at kyrafre.com Fri Jan 15 09:03:36 2021 From: kej at kyrafre.com (Kevin Jordan) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 10:03:36 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you would like to re/experience APL, four classic implementations are available on five machines running at the Nostalgic Computing Center : - APL 2 (aka APLUM) on the CDC Cyber 865 and Cyber 175 NOS 2 systems - APLSF on the PDP-10 TOPS-20 system - APL-11 on the PDP-11 RSX-11M-Plus system - APL/Z on the Z80 CP/M system The NCC is also planning to install APL\360 on its IBM 4381 VM/CMS system, per instructions recently posted on the Hercules forum. cheers, Kevin On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 8:45 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching for > Knuth stuff. > > The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: > https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ > . It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of the > source code. And it points to an executable version, apparently a packaged > up Hercules running that code. > > Nice. I'll have to give it a try. > > paul > > From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 10:21:11 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:21:11 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <20210115043555.GA4212@lonesome.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <20210115043555.GA4212@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <0295022a-6ee6-e713-39fa-6ce87e72d0e0@gmail.com> On 01/14/21 23:35, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote (in part): > When I was living outside Dallas around 1988 or so, I knew a woman who > had a job-for-life with an insurance company that ran their whole > company on APL. Of course by that time she was sick of working on the > same thing all the time, but they could not afford to let her go -- no > one else could do any maintance to it. In 1999, a fellow student in a UML course worked for a large information company (Reuters, I think?) and told me that they had embarked on an expensive s/w conversion project. Their back-end systems were implemented in APL and they could not find programmers -- even ones willing to learn APL for pay. N. From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 10:27:07 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 08:27:07 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Norman, Same here, but archived at the CHM Software Preservation site: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl If there is anything you have that is missing from the above site I'd love to add it. Please drop me an email. BTW my Dad was one of the first users of the original 2 cassette MCM-70 in the US. We had one at home, along with a selectric terminal that we used (from 1969 on) to access APL on a mainframe. Fun days. His MCM machine is on display at CHM. Lee Courtney On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 6:28 PM Norman Jaffe via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I remember colleagues competing for the most 'interesting' one-liner in > APL that actually did something useful, in university. > I wrote several different kinds of simulator, one of which generated APL > code on the fly that was then executed... plus a database-or-two. > I've been actively collecting APL memorabilia and books for years now... > if I could find an MCM/70 it would be awesome... > > From: "cctalk" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 6:22:39 PM > Subject: Re: APL\360 > > On 1/14/21 5:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching for > Knuth stuff. > > > > The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: > https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ > . It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of the > source code. And it points to an executable version, apparently a packaged > up Hercules running that code. > > > > Nice. I'll have to give it a try. > > > I recall Neil Lincoln (he of CDC/ETA) relating that he taught APL to his > kids and his wife (APL was pretty much a natural for the STAR) as a > first programming language. > > I took some time to learn it fairly well, but never really had any > opportunity to use it much, so it's gone into the memory dustbin of old > never-used languages of my brain. > > A co-worker back when would never use the name of the book or the > abbreviation. He always referred to it as "that Iverson language" or > "TIL". > > And it's comparatively easy to write short, perfectly opaque code in > APL; probably more so than other common languages. > > --Chuck > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From gavin at learn.bio Fri Jan 15 10:44:11 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 10:44:11 -0600 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 9:05 AM Kevin Jordan via cctalk wrote: > > If you would like to re/experience APL, four classic implementations are > available on five machines running at the Nostalgic Computing Center > : There's also HP's APL\3000 running on your own virtual 1979 HP 3000 Series III with the HP 2641A APL Display Station Terminal, included in my turnkey HP 3000 simulator setup which is still up on my Drive for now: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmXvHkBLbUeLAid73EJ4H1yQ2uwXQuRu APL is still a going concern in a few places, and there's an active ACM APL SIG for it, as well as a few actively supported and evolving commercial implementations. I did a presentation on APL\3000 (which is a functional duplicate of IBM's APL.SV) for the APL SIG a while back. There's also an APL WIKI at https://aplwiki.com/ with lots of historically interesting information. G. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 10:44:50 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:44:50 +0100 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <0295022a-6ee6-e713-39fa-6ce87e72d0e0@gmail.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <20210115043555.GA4212@lonesome.com> <0295022a-6ee6-e713-39fa-6ce87e72d0e0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 at 17:21, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > > In 1999, a fellow student in a UML course worked for a large information > company (Reuters, I think?) and told me that they had embarked on an > expensive s/w conversion project. Their back-end systems were > implemented in APL and they could not find programmers -- even ones > willing to learn APL for pay. Later than that, Morgan Stanley was still using significant amounts of APL, albeit in its own in-house dialect, A+ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%2B_(programming_language) My lodger at one point (around 2005 I think) got a job with MS and had to learn A+. He was a heavy Perl user before and maintained some official Perl packages. He was given to improvising tiny cryptic Perl one-liners on Linux to work stuff out, calculate dates, do file management, etc. IOW he thought in Perl. He commented to me in the pub a year or 2 later that he realised one evening, doing some Perl work, that after some years working in A+, he now found Perl irritatingly verbose, and that realisation rather shocked him. :-) Of course this is some 15Y ago now and it may no longer be in use, but it certainly was well past the turn of the century. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 10:48:58 2021 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 08:48:58 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul et al, Along with the APL\360 material Len Shustek put together on the CHM web site, there is a site I maintain at CHM hosting documents, papers, books, etc on the history and evolution of APL as well as historic APL source code and implementations: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/ I am always looking for more material to add. There was also a recent forum by the Bristish APL Association discussing history and future of APL. Unfortunately not yet posted to Youtube. Lee COurtney On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 5:45 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching for > Knuth stuff. > > The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: > https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ > . It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of the > source code. And it points to an executable version, apparently a packaged > up Hercules running that code. > > Nice. I'll have to give it a try. > > paul > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 10:50:37 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:50:37 +0100 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 at 17:44, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > > APL is still a going concern in a few places Oh, definitely. I subscribed to the British APL Association's newsletter from an advert in UK magazine PCW in the 1980s and continued to get its publication, _Vector_, for over 20Y. https://britishaplassociation.org/ I never understood it but I enjoyed the feeling of baffled incomprehension I got from reading it. I was sad when it stopped. When I was emigrating in 2014, I found an unopened copy of Vector in a box in my garage. _That_ copy was the one in which they asked all subscribers to confirm they still wanted it. :-( So I resubbed online and now I get it again. providing that warm comforting sensation of intellects vast and cool, as immeasurably superior to my own as mine is to that of the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. https://vector.org.uk/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 15 11:00:27 2021 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:00:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That reminds me of the APL\360 implementation running on the IBM 5100 and 5110 using a rudimental System/360 emulator written in PALM machine code stored in the APL Executable ROS. The APL interpreter is stored in the APL language ROS and was accessed like an I/O device, i.e. the emulator fetched the 360 instructions with instructions like GETB and so on. Also, I *think* that the PALM assembler used by IBM was written in APL, at least that's the impression I got when reading the documents from H. J. Myers "Instructions for the use of the Assembler Generator", and IBM report no. ZZ20-6431 "A Fast Assembly Technique Using APL" Christian From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 15 11:36:19 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 12:36:19 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/14/21 10:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 14 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> It's a different world from BASIC, for sure. >> >> Neil maintained that its strength lay in thinking about things in a >> non-scalar way.? I'll give him that--programming on STAR, where a scalar >> was treated by the hardware as a vector of length 1 (and thus very slow >> because of startup overhead) certainly led you toward thinking about >> things in vector operations, just like APL. >> >> Here's the APL*STAR reference manual: >> >> http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/Books/197409_APL%20Star%20Reference%20Manual_19980800B.pdf >> > > Thank you for that! > > You are right.? At the time, it simply never occured to me that anybody > would use it for anything other than matrix processing of scientific data. > (MY view of the elephant) > > > Yes, I suppose that somebody of sufficient skill COULD write accounting > software with it, . . . > But why? > There was a company her in Scranton, PA that did a very complex financials package in APL. One of my students interned there and enjoyed the work. Wy, you say? Probably better than encryption for protecting the source code. :-) > > And, one of the advantages of COBOL for business programming was the > possibility of checking somebody else's code.? APL was intrinsically > obfuscated code. I have known many APL programmers who would not agree with this. When I was doing COBOL and Fortran at West Point, NY we had an intern from Marist College. APL was their common instructional language and the only one our intern knew when he started. It was at West Point that I learned APL and I have since run it on everything from a Micro to a mainframe. Still have a version that runs quite well on my TRS-80's. bill From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 12:33:07 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:33:07 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> On 01/15/21 11:50, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote (in part): > I never understood it but I enjoyed the feeling of baffled > incomprehension I got from reading it. As a grad student, I still remember the row of APL terminals at the computer centre with their APL-specific keyboards, always ruing that I had no time to learn it. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jan 15 13:25:33 2021 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:25:33 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> On 2021-01-15 1:33 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > As a grad student, I still remember the row of APL terminals at the > computer centre with their APL-specific keyboards, always ruing that I > had no time to learn it. Seems backwards when students have no time to learn things. Just sayin --T From boris at summitclinic.com Fri Jan 15 13:30:40 2021 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:30:40 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210115193048.F2D78273B9@mx1.ezwind.net> Thanks for the link. Coincidentally, recently while going through my ancient Calgary printouts, found a few small APL programs I wrote in 1968 or 1969. There was an APL system being trialed at UofCalgary and a group of us had a chance to play around with it for a few hours. It was very novel back then to have immediate results of a program instead of 24-48 hour turnaround for a batch FORTRAN job. It was an easy language to learn but recall just writing a few simple one or two line programs and essentially using it as a sophisticated calculator to get immediate results for a physics problem. Glad to see that APL manuals now online and can now decode what I was trying to do on those printouts with APL hieroglyphics. Reminds me a bit of FOCAL on PDP-8 which was used to quickly create throwaway programs that were just needed for a calculation that was too tedious to do by hand or with a slide rule but too simple to go through bother of writing a FORTRAN program. >I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching >for Knuth stuff. > >The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: >https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ >. It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of >the source code. And it points to an executable version, apparently >a packaged up Hercules running that code. > >Nice. I'll have to give it a try. > > paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 14:11:46 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 12:11:46 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: It's also worth noting that (ostensibly) the first complete microcomputer system (keyboard, printer, storage) was the MCM/70, using an 8008 implementing APL (not BASIC!). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCM/70 I'll say it again--a programmer who thinks in APL is very different from one who thinks in BASIC, Fortran, C, Pascal, etc. So of course, an APL program would look unintelligible to a non-APL programmer. --Chuck From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 15:51:12 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 16:51:12 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <294a8038-6d70-da29-844d-65a4695721d7@gmail.com> On 01/15/21 14:25, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2021-01-15 1:33 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >> As a grad student, I still remember the row of APL terminals at the >> computer centre with their APL-specific keyboards, always ruing that >> I had no time to learn it. > Seems backwards when students have no time to learn things. Just sayin I was in math, not computer science. APL would have been a curiousity and nothing else. N. From amp1ron at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 16:44:57 2021 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:44:57 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gavin -- It looks like you have frequents updates of your virtual HP 3000 setup. Is there someplace I can subscribe to learn of updates to your collection? -- Ron Pool ?On 1/15/21, 11:44 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Gavin Scott via cctalk" wrote: There's also HP's APL\3000 running on your own virtual 1979 HP 3000 Series III with the HP 2641A APL Display Station Terminal, included in my turnkey HP 3000 simulator setup which is still up on my Drive for now: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmXvHkBLbUeLAid73EJ4H1yQ2uwXQuRu From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 15 17:07:47 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:07:47 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/15/21 3:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > It's also worth noting that (ostensibly) the first complete > microcomputer system (keyboard, printer, storage) was the MCM/70, using > an 8008 implementing APL (not BASIC!). > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCM/70 > > I'll say it again--a programmer who thinks in APL is very different from > one who thinks in BASIC, Fortran, C, Pascal, etc. > > So of course, an APL program would look unintelligible to a non-APL > programmer. > But being an APL programmer does not preclude using all the other languages. One need to pick the language suitable for the job. Back in the days when APL, COBOL, Fortran, ALGOL, etc. were the norm languages were created domain specific. Today they are all just General Purpose. As a side note, while I know and have used the APL Character Set I have only ever owned two terminals that had it and most of my APL was done using DiGraphs and TriGraphs. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 17:10:08 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:10:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > As a grad student, I still remember the row of APL terminals at the computer > centre with their APL-specific keyboards, always ruing that I had no time to > learn it. I guess that I was lucky? At GSFC, I was in an entry level job ("Data Technician"), having EAM experience and some FORTRAN, being paid as a go-fer, but being expected to learn and do more and more stuff. Such as simple FORTRAN to draw graphs on Calcomp plotters. I had some calculations to do, and THE calculator (on a typewriter cart) was in use elsewhere. One of my senior cow-orkers (a programmer) spent about a minute showing me that you could do routine arithmetic in APL. So, it only took a few minutes before it was saving me time and effort. After I was using it for calculator work for a little while, he came back and showed me how to write simple programs, and got me access to some manuals. I was never GREAT, but I found it easy to learn new stuff in it. I had been fascinated with matrix algebra in high school, and was thrilled to see some of the things that APL could do. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 17:11:32 2021 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 23:11:32 -0000 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <294a8038-6d70-da29-844d-65a4695721d7@gmail.com> References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> <294a8038-6d70-da29-844d-65a4695721d7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02f101d6eb93$c3edcdb0$4bc96910$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nemo Nusquam > via cctalk > Sent: 15 January 2021 21:51 > To: Toby Thain ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: APL\360 > > On 01/15/21 14:25, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2021-01-15 1:33 p.m., Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > >> As a grad student, I still remember the row of APL terminals at the > >> computer centre with their APL-specific keyboards, always ruing that > >> I had no time to learn it. > > Seems backwards when students have no time to learn things. Just sayin > I was in math, not computer science. APL would have been a curiousity and > nothing else. I was in Mathematics (sorry I am English) and I wrote code in APL to do Critical Path Analysis with Heuristic Resource Levelling in APL. Sadly I no longer have the code. I believe APL was widely used by actuaries to calculate life assurance premiums because of its ability to do array manipulations, > > N. Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 17:11:42 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:11:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >> As a grad student, I still remember the row of APL terminals at the >> computer centre with their APL-specific keyboards, always ruing that I >> had no time to learn it. On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Seems backwards when students have no time to learn things. Just sayin There are some flaws in our educational system. Such as directing learning so rigidly that students are discouraged from exploring. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 15 17:14:26 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:14:26 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/15/21 6:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> As a grad student, I still remember the row of APL terminals at the >>> computer centre with their APL-specific keyboards, always ruing that I >>> had no time to learn it. > On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> Seems backwards when students have no time to learn things. Just sayin > > There are some flaws in our educational system. > Such as directing learning so rigidly that students are discouraged from > exploring. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com Even worse when they are told specifically to "not waste time" learning things like APL or COBOL. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 17:41:04 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:41:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >> There are some flaws in our educational system. >> Such as directing learning so rigidly that students are discouraged from >> exploring. On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Even worse when they are told specifically to "not waste time" learning > things like APL or COBOL. THAT is truly criminal. A viewpoint opposed to mine: "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense." - Edsger Dijkstra Choosing to learn it, or APL, etc. is an admirable educational exercise. A tangential recreational educational exploration is NEVER a "waste of time". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 15 18:13:26 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 16:13:26 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/15/21 3:07 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > But being an APL programmer does not preclude using all the other > languages.? One need to pick the language suitable for the job. > Back in the days when APL, COBOL, Fortran, ALGOL, etc. were the > norm languages were created domain specific.? Today they are all > just General Purpose. That's certainly true, but using a traditional language, such as JOVIAL or PL/I is a lot more straightforward to an APL programmer (just view everything as scalar and forget about the vector operators) than the reverse. My point is that taking APL as a starting point leads one to think about problems differently. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 15 18:16:38 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 16:16:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: At least Edsger Dijkstra thought that APL had been "carried through to perfection"! "language of the future" for our programming techniques! creates a new generation of coders"! Oh, wait. Here's the context: "APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language of the future for the programming techniques of the past: it creates a new generation of coding bums." - Edsger Dijksta https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html From turing at shaw.ca Fri Jan 15 18:33:12 2021 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:33:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1006941420.379963712.1610757192695.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I have found that the ideal combination of languages to learn early are APL, Simula, LISP and Smalltalk. I was lucky enough to have started programming when that was possible. From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, January 15, 2021 4:13:26 PM Subject: Re: APL\360 On 1/15/21 3:07 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > But being an APL programmer does not preclude using all the other > languages. One need to pick the language suitable for the job. > Back in the days when APL, COBOL, Fortran, ALGOL, etc. were the > norm languages were created domain specific. Today they are all > just General Purpose. That's certainly true, but using a traditional language, such as JOVIAL or PL/I is a lot more straightforward to an APL programmer (just view everything as scalar and forget about the vector operators) than the reverse. My point is that taking APL as a starting point leads one to think about problems differently. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 15 19:16:08 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 20:16:08 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On Jan 15, 2021, at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> There are some flaws in our educational system. >>> Such as directing learning so rigidly that students are discouraged from exploring. > > On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Even worse when they are told specifically to "not waste time" learning >> things like APL or COBOL. > > THAT is truly criminal. > > A viewpoint opposed to mine: > "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense." - Edsger Dijkstra Then again, there was this observation from my sister, who made her living writing COBOL and RPG: "COBOL is the programming language that gives you writer's cramp". paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 15 19:18:25 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 20:18:25 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <1006941420.379963712.1610757192695.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <1006941420.379963712.1610757192695.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: > On Jan 15, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > I have found that the ideal combination of languages to learn early are APL, Simula, LISP and Smalltalk. > I was lucky enough to have started programming when that was possible. Interesting. My first was ALGOL 60. One measure I've used is that, out of 40 or so languages I know, with only two have I gone from "no knowledge" to "able to write a substantial program" in one week. One was Pascal (in university -- computer course code generator). The other was Python (about 15 years ago, a substantial enhancement to cvs2svn). paul From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 19:21:16 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 02:21:16 +0100 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 at 17:50, Liam Proven wrote: > So I resubbed online and now I get it again. providing that warm > comforting sensation of intellects vast and cool, as immeasurably > superior to my own as mine is to that of the transient creatures that > swarm and multiply in a drop of water. On which note, from a totally different source, this may amuse the Perl _and_ APL fans: http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/web/APL.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 15 20:02:33 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 20:02:33 -0600 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: <60024939.6040309@pico-systems.com> On 01/15/2021 05:07 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/15/21 3:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> It's also worth noting that (ostensibly) the first complete >> microcomputer system (keyboard, printer, storage) was the >> MCM/70, using >> an 8008 implementing APL (not BASIC!). >> I had to see this message several times before I saw the 8008! WOW, the 8008 was a very limited processor, I'm amazed it could handle APL! I built an 8008 system using wire-wrap in 1976, but it only had 256 bytes of static RAM, and a keypad and LEDs for a console. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jan 15 20:14:37 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 20:14:37 -0600 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <1006941420.379963712.1610757192695.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <60024C0D.8060307@pico-systems.com> On 01/15/2021 07:18 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > One measure I've used is that, out of 40 or so languages I > know, with only two have I gone from "no knowledge" to > "able to write a substantial program" in one week. One was > Pascal (in university -- computer course code generator). I used to be a Pascal proselytizer, using it on PDP-11 and VAX, then on PCs with Borland Turbo Pascal. I found that when I got a Pascal program to compile, it would generally run first time, as the language nudged me to think clearly. I wrote a number of modest programs with it, and then one larger program to take Gerber files and generate raster data for a photoplotter. This turned out to be quite a large and intricate program. I just used it as a tool for a number of years, and stopped using Pascal as I had migrated to Linux. Then, FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) came out, specifically aimed at accepting Turbo Pascal and DEC Pascal extensions, units, etc. I converted my old photoplotter program to run under Linux and FPC, and of course, it ran many times faster on new hardware. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 16 16:17:06 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 17:17:06 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30975ACD-51ED-483F-9668-ECC384921907@comcast.net> I just tried what you suggested (with P/OS 3.0) on an MFM emulator empty RD52 image, and indeed that works just fine. Thanks Chris! paul > On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Hm. I remember that POS 2.0 and above would just format the hard disk and go during the install. Likewise I don't know if you can have multiple hard disks in P/OS so that's a pain in the tail. > > Boot from floppies and just init the raw disk. > > C > > > On 1/14/2021 11:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I'm wondering how to do hard drive formatting, which is likely to be needed when working with emulated disks in David Gesswein's MFM emulator. >> As far as I can tell, RT-11 can do this. At least I have a source code printout for such a formatter. But while I can find a hard drive image of RT V5 for Pro, I haven't found any floppy-bootable images. And I think it's a bit tricky to create one. I knew, long ago for V2... >> Any suggestions? Any alternative sources for a formatter? I guess I really should consider typing in the core of that formatter and adding it to RSTS. >> paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 16 16:32:15 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 17:32:15 -0500 Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional Message-ID: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> I just completed a set of tests of David's MFM emulator on my Pro 380. Summary: everything works right. Very impressive device. My compliments to David for an amazing piece of engineering. Details: 1. I built and tested it (rev C board) per the instructions and all that worked nicely. A few minor points in the instructions, quickly clarified by David and already updated on the web page. I used an old 2 MB BeagleBone Black (the kind that was shipped some years ago with the abandoned Angstrom distribution), that fits just fine. 2. I read the three drives I have, one RD51, two RD52 (Quantum). All worked fine. They were identified by the analysis tool as "Elektronika_85" which makes sense since that's a Pro clone. 3. On the RD52, the last cylinder cannot be read. The reason is that the DEC standard formatting tool does not format the last cylinder except on the RD50. I'm not sure why; the comments say it is "reserved for the FCT" but I don't know what that is. In any case, ignore those errors; the OS does not use that cylinder so nothing bad happens. 4. In spite of what the XHomer documentation says, Pro disks have 16 sectors per track, not 17. It may well be that the drive is physically capable of holding 17 sectors per track if you have an RQDXn controller, but the Pro format is definitely 16 sectors. And 4:1 interleaved to account for the performance issues of programmed I/O rather than DMA. 5. I set up auto-start of emulation mode using one of the files created by the disk reader. That works fine, the OS boots, identifies the drive type correctly, and runs happily. 6. I also tested creating a new empty RD52 image (i.e., 512 cylinders, 8 heads), and running a P/OS 3.0 install to that emulated disk. That works also; as Chris Zach suggested, the installer includes a low level formatter tool and invokes that automatically when it detects it is needed. 7. Poweroff data saving works nicely. I can watch the BBB keep running after I turn Pro power off, then after 5-10 seconds the BBB power light also goes off. 8. I looked at the extracted data files created by step 2: they are good block level data images of the disks. A note on testing and drive copying: at first I tried to do this using a spare Pro power supply. That does not work because that supply requires a substantial minimum current. Even with a real drive plugged in alongside the emulator, the current draw is too small and the supply shuts down almost immediately. Instead, I temporarily connected an old small PC-type power supply I had lying around (rated at 50 watts according to the label); that was plenty for the emulator and also good enough to power it along with the drive to be read. paul From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 16 16:50:44 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 17:50:44 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro hard drive formatter In-Reply-To: <30975ACD-51ED-483F-9668-ECC384921907@comcast.net> References: <30975ACD-51ED-483F-9668-ECC384921907@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9746725c-531f-3b43-c09c-3d39d5b74e60@alembic.crystel.com> Nice! If you'd like to be the greatest hero today, can you send me an image of an RD52 or RD53 of the latest P/OS and I'll load it on one of my drives here? (Save me 30 floppies, please :-) Did the images from Xhomer work? C On 1/16/2021 5:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I just tried what you suggested (with P/OS 3.0) on an MFM emulator empty RD52 image, and indeed that works just fine. > > Thanks Chris! > > paul > >> On Jan 14, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hm. I remember that POS 2.0 and above would just format the hard disk and go during the install. Likewise I don't know if you can have multiple hard disks in P/OS so that's a pain in the tail. >> >> Boot from floppies and just init the raw disk. >> >> C >> >> >> On 1/14/2021 11:39 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm wondering how to do hard drive formatting, which is likely to be needed when working with emulated disks in David Gesswein's MFM emulator. >>> As far as I can tell, RT-11 can do this. At least I have a source code printout for such a formatter. But while I can find a hard drive image of RT V5 for Pro, I haven't found any floppy-bootable images. And I think it's a bit tricky to create one. I knew, long ago for V2... >>> Any suggestions? Any alternative sources for a formatter? I guess I really should consider typing in the core of that formatter and adding it to RSTS. >>> paul > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jan 16 17:19:51 2021 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 23:19:51 +0000 Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9E489D3F-F382-49C0-B064-4D24DA10FB48@gmail.com> > On 16 Jan 2021, at 22:32, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I just completed a set of tests of David's MFM emulator on my Pro 380. > > Summary: everything works right. Very impressive device. My compliments to David for an amazing piece of engineering. > > Details: > > 1. I built and tested it (rev C board) per the instructions and all that worked nicely. A few minor points in the instructions, quickly clarified by David and already updated on the web page. I used an old 2 MB BeagleBone Black (the kind that was shipped some years ago with the abandoned Angstrom distribution), that fits just fine. Oh hells, I?m just drawing up a cape for an old 2GB BBB for my second DECbox project but this might be a better use for it and I can get a PocketBeagle to use on the DECbox instead. For those that may not have heard of it, DECbox is a BBB-based emulator that fits inside a VT100 and using simh will emulate your favourite anything that uses a serial terminal. http://binarydinosaurs.co .uk/Museum/Decbox That?s my first one, the 2nd one will go inside one of my VT220s, or even a 240. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From grant at millhouseindustries.com Sat Jan 16 12:07:54 2021 From: grant at millhouseindustries.com (grant) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 10:07:54 -0800 Subject: HP 3000 series 30/33 Message-ID: <20210116180804.68C614E7AE@mx2.ezwind.net> Working to restore a series 30 , looking for any spare boards ,cpu ,bic boards from a series 30/33Just putting it out there ,long shot i knowCheers,Grant?Sent from my Galaxy From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 16 21:04:13 2021 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:04:13 -0800 Subject: HP 3000 series 30/33 In-Reply-To: <20210116180804.68C614E7AE@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20210116180804.68C614E7AE@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2021, at 10:07, grant via cctech wrote: > > Working to restore a series 30 , looking for any spare boards ,cpu ,bic boards from a series 30/33Just putting it out there ,long shot i knowCheers,Grant Sent from my Galaxy CPU is 30070-69003 (-60003) BIC is 31000-69053 (-60053) Firmware is 30070-69002 (-60002) Maint interface is 30070-69013 (-60013) p/ns from a CE parts list document dated Jan 1993 Interestingly there are p/ns for some of the ICs. PSU 1AB2-6003 RASS 1AB3-6003 RALU 1AB4-6003 PHI 1AA6-6004 -Frank McConnell From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 17 12:35:44 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 13:35:44 -0500 Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> > On Jan 16, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I just completed a set of tests of David's MFM emulator on my Pro 380. > > Summary: everything works right. Very impressive device. My compliments to David for an amazing piece of engineering. > > Details: ... Some more details. 1. I forgot to mention that the Pro disk controller always uses only drive select 1, so that has to be set as the primary drive select on P7, and nothing on the secondary (P8). 2. RD50s are odd; they use pin 32, which is normally drive select 4, as an output to indicate "I am an RD50". The software looks for that signal. So to emulate an RD50, install the jumper for drive select 4 (alongside the one for drive select 1) on P7. 3. Since on the RD50 drive select 4 is an output, you can't plug one of those drives into the emulator either for reading or writing, since the emulator (also) drives that pin. You'd have to open up that wire or something along those lines to avoid having a battle between two drivers. paul From g-wright at att.net Sun Jan 17 12:57:56 2021 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:57:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 3000 37 CPU board needed References: <1339199720.370327.1610909876755.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1339199720.370327.1610909876755@mail.yahoo.com> As long as where on the hp 3000 board hunt,? I have a dead 3000-37 here that needs a CPU board.? any lurking out there? ??? - Jerry From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 17 13:12:25 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 11:12:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > 2. RD50s are odd; they use pin 32, which is normally drive select 4, as > an output to indicate "I am an RD50". The software looks for that > signal. So to emulate an RD50, install the jumper for drive select 4 > (alongside the one for drive select 1) on P7. Unimportant NIT: On most drives, pin 32 is side select. On TRS80 [Model 1], which had single sided drives, pin 32 was the fourth drive select. (10, 12, 14, 32) The cable connectors had missing pins for three of those four, and the drive was jumpered to respond to all four. Using four drives AND adding double sided support required some modifications. But, on most machines after that, pin 32 is SIDE SELECT. It is used to access side B of the drive. On some drives, pin 34 was "DRIVE READY"/"DISK CHANGE" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 17 13:19:10 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 14:19:10 -0500 Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 17, 2021, at 2:12 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Jan 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> 2. RD50s are odd; they use pin 32, which is normally drive select 4, as an output to indicate "I am an RD50". The software looks for that signal. So to emulate an RD50, install the jumper for drive select 4 (alongside the one for drive select 1) on P7. > > Unimportant NIT: > On most drives, pin 32 is side select. > > On TRS80 [Model 1], which had single sided drives, pin 32 was the fourth drive select. (10, 12, 14, 32) The cable connectors had missing pins for three of those four, and the drive was jumpered to respond to all four. Using four drives AND adding double sided support required some modifications. > > But, on most machines after that, pin 32 is SIDE SELECT. It is used to access side B of the drive. You seem to be talking about floppy drives. The MFM emulator deals with hard drives, and the RD50 I mentioned is a hard drive (sold by DEC, 5 MB, the original hard drive for the PDP-11 base Professional series). paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 17 13:54:04 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 11:54:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> Message-ID: Thanks. Sorry about that. I was, indeed, thinking of floppy drives (RX50), which could have their own pin 32 and drive select incompatabilities >> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> 2. RD50s are odd; they use pin 32, which is normally drive select 4, as an output to indicate "I am an RD50". The software looks for that signal. So to emulate an RD50, install the jumper for drive select 4 (alongside the one for drive select 1) on P7. >> On Jan 17, 2021, at 2:12 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Unimportant NIT: >> On most drives, pin 32 is side select. >> On TRS80 [Model 1], which had single sided drives, pin 32 was the fourth drive select. (10, 12, 14, 32) The cable connectors had missing pins for three of those four, and the drive was jumpered to respond to all four. Using four drives AND adding double sided support required some modifications. >> But, on most machines after that, pin 32 is SIDE SELECT. It is used to access side B of the drive. On Sun, 17 Jan 2021, Paul Koning wrote: > You seem to be talking about floppy drives. The MFM emulator deals with hard drives, and the RD50 I mentioned is a hard drive (sold by DEC, 5 MB, the original hard drive for the PDP-11 base Professional series). > paul From athornton at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 18:50:20 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 17:50:20 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 76, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I seem to recall that in "how to shoot yourself in the foot in various programming languages," APL is something like "There's a bang. Your foot is missing. You don't remember enough linear algebra to know how it got that way." From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 18 12:54:33 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 13:54:33 -0500 Subject: Quick journey to the basement Message-ID: <6a883a49-5abe-0340-1b08-bcdd6efbafb6@alembic.crystel.com> Found more stuff. 4 Perq boards, the HP1000, a Perq mouse and "pad", a Sun4 keyboard with 15 pin plug, and another Perq2 keyboard. Also found a weird one, a MFM drive with an adapter board on the bottom. Is the below a MFM to Shugart interface? Pics are up on the Discord server right now along with the HP1000. C From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Jan 18 15:37:45 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 13:37:45 -0800 Subject: DEC: securing 15V pwr monitor board in H765 supply Message-ID: Hi all, I?m reassembling an H765 supply after cleaning and repairs. It has the "newer" style 15V and power monitoring board (the one with the edge finger connector, same as used in H7420 supplies.) The board slides into a slot in a sub-chassis that also houses the power control circuitry, which small chassis later slides into, and is secured to, the larger H7420 chassis. I cannot for the life of me figure out what, if anything, secures the power monitor board to the small chassis! There don?t appear to be any conveniently placed fixtures to which to screw down the board, and I haven?t been able to inform myself by pondering the various engineering diagrams, IPB?s, nor the pile of remaining fastening hardware... When I test-fit everything in the larger chassis, the unsecured board is held captive only by the grace of the surrounding wiring harness and by some small clearance issues with the large cap on the board. This doesn't seem satisfactory; as part of something like an 11/34 on tilt slides, it would seem to bang around a bit in there if left loose like that. Am I missing something? Puzzled... --FritzM. From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 15:44:17 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 22:44:17 +0100 Subject: Quick journey to the basement In-Reply-To: <6a883a49-5abe-0340-1b08-bcdd6efbafb6@alembic.crystel.com> References: <6a883a49-5abe-0340-1b08-bcdd6efbafb6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Den m?n 18 jan. 2021 kl 19:55 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Found more stuff. 4 Perq boards, the HP1000, a Perq mouse and "pad", a > Sun4 keyboard with 15 pin plug, and another Perq2 keyboard. Also found a > weird one, a MFM drive with an adapter board on the bottom. Is the below > a MFM to Shugart interface? > My PERQ 2 Micropolis 1303 which I recently imaged has an adapter board on top of the drive. The interface to the PERQ is through a 50 pin flat cable. The adapter board also has connections for two ST506 drives. I wonder if that is what you have? No, I am not Discord connected. /Mattis > > Pics are up on the Discord server right now along with the HP1000. > > C > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 16:18:21 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 17:18:21 -0500 Subject: DEC: securing 15V pwr monitor board in H765 supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If no one else knows off hand I can check later today, let me know. On Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 4:37 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I?m reassembling an H765 supply after cleaning and repairs. It has the > "newer" style 15V and power monitoring board (the one with the edge finger > connector, same as used in H7420 supplies.) > > The board slides into a slot in a sub-chassis that also houses the power > control circuitry, which small chassis later slides into, and is secured > to, the larger H7420 chassis. > > I cannot for the life of me figure out what, if anything, secures the > power monitor board to the small chassis! There don?t appear to be any > conveniently placed fixtures to which to screw down the board, and I > haven?t been able to inform myself by pondering the various engineering > diagrams, IPB?s, nor the pile of remaining fastening hardware... > > When I test-fit everything in the larger chassis, the unsecured board is > held captive only by the grace of the surrounding wiring harness and by > some small clearance issues with the large cap on the board. This doesn't > seem satisfactory; as part of something like an 11/34 on tilt slides, it > would seem to bang around a bit in there if left loose like that. > > Am I missing something? Puzzled... > > --FritzM. > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jan 18 16:21:58 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 17:21:58 -0500 Subject: Quick journey to the basement In-Reply-To: References: <6a883a49-5abe-0340-1b08-bcdd6efbafb6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: That's probably it. The drive is not stuck, so I'll put it on the MFM tester later this week and see what's up. Does the adapter board have its' own power supply? I'm guessing it's a Shugart SA1000 to MFM interface card. On the bottom side of it it says "Perq systems", that, the little stack of washers to offset it from the drive, and the numerous wire hacks on the board mark it as yet another product from the mighty Three Rivers company :-) God my shed is getting full.... C On 1/18/2021 4:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Den m?n 18 jan. 2021 kl 19:55 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk > >: > > Found more stuff. 4 Perq boards, the HP1000, a Perq mouse and "pad", a > Sun4 keyboard with 15 pin plug, and another Perq2 keyboard. Also > found a > weird one, a MFM drive with an adapter board on the bottom. Is the > below > a MFM to Shugart interface? > > > My PERQ 2 Micropolis 1303 which I recently imaged has an adapter board > on top of the drive. The interface to the PERQ is through a 50 pin flat > cable. The adapter board also has connections for two ST506 drives. I > wonder if that is what you have? No, I am not Discord connected. > > /Mattis > > > Pics are up on the Discord server right now along with the HP1000. > > C > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 18 21:18:01 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 20:18:01 -0700 Subject: Quick journey to the basement In-Reply-To: References: <6a883a49-5abe-0340-1b08-bcdd6efbafb6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/18/2021 3:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > God my shed is getting full.... > There is still room in the OutHouse. Good to see the machines being brought back to life. Ben. From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 05:11:33 2021 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 06:11:33 -0500 Subject: securing 15V pwr monitor board in H765 supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <064401d6ee53$d8c454d0$8a4cfe70$@gmail.com> Fritz: You are referring to the 5411086 board as seen in the lower picture at: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_Power_Line_Monitor ? Mina has screws on all four corners to secure it to corresponding tabs in the metal frame for the power control circuitry. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fritz Mueller via cctalk Sent: Monday, January 18, 2021 4:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC: securing 15V pwr monitor board in H765 supply Hi all, I?m reassembling an H765 supply after cleaning and repairs. It has the "newer" style 15V and power monitoring board (the one with the edge finger connector, same as used in H7420 supplies.) The board slides into a slot in a sub-chassis that also houses the power control circuitry, which small chassis later slides into, and is secured to, the larger H7420 chassis. I cannot for the life of me figure out what, if anything, secures the power monitor board to the small chassis! There don?t appear to be any conveniently placed fixtures to which to screw down the board, and I haven?t been able to inform myself by pondering the various engineering diagrams, IPB?s, nor the pile of remaining fastening hardware... When I test-fit everything in the larger chassis, the unsecured board is held captive only by the grace of the surrounding wiring harness and by some small clearance issues with the large cap on the board. This doesn't seem satisfactory; as part of something like an 11/34 on tilt slides, it would seem to bang around a bit in there if left loose like that. Am I missing something? Puzzled... --FritzM. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 09:17:01 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 15:17:01 +0000 Subject: Quick journey to the basement In-Reply-To: References: <6a883a49-5abe-0340-1b08-bcdd6efbafb6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 10:22 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > That's probably it. The drive is not stuck, so I'll put it on the MFM > tester later this week and see what's up. Does the adapter board have > its' own power supply? Yes it does. It's the little white 3-pin connector on the board. From memory it's +5V, ground, -5V but do check that before powering up. A word of warning. These boards (known as 'DIB's (Disk Interface Board)) use totem-pole devices to drive the disk drive signals. If you power up the drive with this board connected but unpowered it has the annoying trick of driving said lines low. Which means write gate is asserted. Which in turn means the boot track gets corrupted. Do not ask how I found that out, > > I'm guessing it's a Shugart SA1000 to MFM interface card. On the bottom Alas not. The interface back to the PERQ EIO board (the 50 pin cable) is sort-of the same signals as the SA4000, but not quite. As some of the signals were controlled by software (microcode actually) they could be re-assigned. The SA4000 has a step and direction pair of signals to move the heads. IIRC with this interface board you can load a value into a register on the board and it'll move the heads that many cylinders. It also does some of the very low level MFM encoding and decoding, clock separation, etc. The 5.25" drive DIB is covered in the PERQ 2 schematics book which I assume you've looked at. -tony From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Jan 19 12:18:02 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 10:18:02 -0800 Subject: securing 15V pwr monitor board in H765 supply In-Reply-To: <064401d6ee53$d8c454d0$8a4cfe70$@gmail.com> References: <064401d6ee53$d8c454d0$8a4cfe70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <91FFD0EC-79C5-4370-9CB2-A6857B43279A@fritzm.org> > On Jan 19, 2021, at 3:11 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > Fritz: You are referring to the 5411086 board as seen in the lower picture at: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_Power_Line_Monitor ? Yes, exactly. > Mine has screws on all four corners to secure it to corresponding tabs in the metal frame for the power control circuitry. Interesting -- there are no such tabs in metal frame that I have; just a slot into which to board slides. Thanks for taking the time to check, Paul -- I think I might just end up drilling some holes and adding a couple bolts to secure board in the frame I have. --FritzM. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 19 12:29:43 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 10:29:43 -0800 Subject: Looking for old Compaq software - COMPAQ System Manager Facility Message-ID: <006a01d6ee91$0f032020$2d096060$@net> Hello All, I am looking for an old piece of Compaq SW. It is used to communicate with a Server Manager/R (or sometimes also known as System Manager) board. This was Compaq's first attempt at a lights-out management (LOM) board. If anyone has a copy and can share I would appreciate it! Thank you. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 19 12:29:43 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 10:29:43 -0800 Subject: Looking for a potentiometer for restoration project Message-ID: <006b01d6ee91$0f4a6250$2ddf26f0$@net> Hello All, I am looking for an EOL/no longer manufactured pot. It is a Clarostat CM46895-3 and used to adjust the back light/brightness on a Compaq Portable 486c (pictures are here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?78057-Compa-Portable-486c-can-not- adjust-screen-brightness). Because of the fit and finish issues it needs to be this particular pot. If someone has one in their parts bin please drop me a line. TIA! -Ali From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 19 12:37:22 2021 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 11:37:22 -0700 Subject: Looking for old Compaq software - COMPAQ System Manager Facility In-Reply-To: <006a01d6ee91$0f032020$2d096060$@net> References: <006a01d6ee91$0f032020$2d096060$@net> Message-ID: On 1/19/21 11:29 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello All, Hi Ali, > I am looking for an old piece of Compaq SW. It is used to communicate > with a Server Manager/R (or sometimes also known as System Manager) > board. Would it have been included on (older) Smart Start CD-ROMs? I know that there are copies of Smart Start CD-ROM's around the Internet. I have a few versions, but I think they would have all been early iLO generation. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 19 15:49:42 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 13:49:42 -0800 Subject: Looking for old Compaq software - COMPAQ System Manager Facility In-Reply-To: References: <006a01d6ee91$0f032020$2d096060$@net> Message-ID: <007801d6eeac$ff8acb40$fea061c0$@net> > Would it have been included on (older) Smart Start CD-ROMs? > > I know that there are copies of Smart Start CD-ROM's around the > Internet. I have a few versions, but I think they would have all been > early iLO generation. > Hi Grant, I am not sure. From what little information I could find the card came with all the required software on disk. The card was in use with the Systempro and early on with the Prolinea EISA systems. I was thinking the same thing but none of the Smart Start CDs I have found have the program on it. This is the earliest/first of the Compaq LOM/iLO cards (circa 1991/1992) so if it is on a Smart Start CDS it maybe in the 2.x or 3.x family. If you have any Smart Start CDs in that time period I would be interested. The program ran under Win 3.x. I am not sure if any of the later programs for the cards would support it. I know for example even though Smart Start 5.x support the Compaq Systempro the support is nominal at best. Thanks. -Ali From matti.nummi at hotmail.fi Tue Jan 19 14:09:21 2021 From: matti.nummi at hotmail.fi (Matti Nummi) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 20:09:21 +0000 Subject: Looking for old Compaq software - COMPAQ System Manager Facility Message-ID: For a workaround: 1. Solder any same size pot with suitable long wires to the location (if possible) 2. Adjust the brightness to Your liking 3. Remove the pot 4. Measure the resistance 5. Solder a measured value resistor where the pot was. This way You get a fixed brightness and somewhat working computer. Now You can wait for a replacement pot and play with the computer. BR Matti From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 19 16:28:33 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 14:28:33 -0800 Subject: Looking for a potentiometer for restoration project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008001d6eeb2$6c8c4610$45a4d230$@net> > For a workaround: > > 1. Solder any same size pot with suitable long wires to the location > (if possible) > 2. Adjust the brightness to Your liking > 3. Remove the pot > 4. Measure the resistance > 5. Solder a measured value resistor where the pot was. > > This way You get a fixed brightness and somewhat working computer. > Now You can wait for a replacement pot and play with the computer. Thanks. We are not that bad off, yet. The system is fully working but the screen brightness is way up so everything looks washed out and the screen gets very hot. If I can't find a replacement I could always just leave it alone or try to open the pot and see if I can repair the actual pot. If all that fails the backup would be to either permanently solder in a resistor (as you suggested) or use a pot with the same values which works but does not allow the case to be closed. I am hoping to get the correct part though.... I have found a replacement pot for the speaker knob (same family, different resistance value) so I am hopeful it may be just a matter of time. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jan 19 17:36:37 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 15:36:37 -0800 Subject: Looking for a potentiometer for restoration project In-Reply-To: References: , <008001d6eeb2$6c8c4610$45a4d230$@net> Message-ID: <009701d6eebb$eeeddf70$ccc99e50$@net> > > Out of curiosity, why do you think the pot is bad? > > Wayne > Wayne, I could be totally wrong here (EE definitely was not my major) but 1. Turning the pot does not change the brightness of the screen at all 2. Measuring the pot and adjusting it (i.e. turning the knob) gives me a constant resistance reading. Doing the same thing with the volume pot gives me a range of resistances as expected. If my thinking is wrong or I should be doing another test I am open to hearing it. -Ali From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 19 18:46:47 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 19:46:47 -0500 Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1772D4DB-C855-4A87-A534-01E915A1083E@comcast.net> > On Jan 17, 2021, at 1:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Jan 16, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I just completed a set of tests of David's MFM emulator on my Pro 380. >> >> Summary: everything works right. Very impressive device. My compliments to David for an amazing piece of engineering. >> >> Details: ... > > Some more details. > > 1. I forgot to mention that the Pro disk controller always uses only drive select 1, so that has to be set as the primary drive select on P7, and nothing on the secondary (P8). > > 2. RD50s are odd; they use pin 32, which is normally drive select 4, as an output to indicate "I am an RD50". The software looks for that signal. So to emulate an RD50, install the jumper for drive select 4 (alongside the one for drive select 1) on P7. > > 3. Since on the RD50 drive select 4 is an output, you can't plug one of those drives into the emulator either for reading or writing, since the emulator (also) drives that pin. You'd have to open up that wire or something along those lines to avoid having a battle between two drivers. David pointed out #3 is incorrect. I was thinking of totem-pole drivers, but the drivers in the MFM interface are all open collector. So the usage conflict between RD52 using "drive sel 4" as an output vs. the controller also doing that is not actually a problem at all. Meanwhile, a new item: 4. If you have an emulated drive that doesn't have either 4 or 8 tracks, and you need to or want to format it, the P/OS formatter will do the wrong thing. It will format whatever the last track is as if it were the 8th track, because the emulator currently treats invalid head selects as selects of the last valid track. I haven't yet run the RT-11 formatter but from examining an old listing I have that appears to be that formatter, it should avoid this issue. This won't matter if you're reading an real drive into an emulator file, so long as you don't try to reformat it. It does matter if you're initializing a new emulator file from scratch. If so, there isn't a whole lot of reason to use such drive layouts; just pick the RD53 (67 MB) or if you need a 31 MB drive, the 8 head Quantum RD52. Those format without trouble. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 20 00:01:42 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 23:01:42 -0700 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 4:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > A viewpoint opposed to mine: > "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be > regarded as a criminal offense." - Edsger Dijkstra > As much as I generally highly respect Dijkstra, I agree with Fred, not Dijkstra, on this one. COBOL was a remarkably good language for the problem domain for which it was intended. As with all tools, it is less good for other problem domains. Learning and using any programming language will cause some language specific habits to become ingrained, and you may have to "unlearn" some when you learn a new language. That doesn't necessarily make either language bad. From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Tue Jan 19 16:47:06 2021 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:47:06 +0000 Subject: Looking for a potentiometer for restoration project In-Reply-To: <008001d6eeb2$6c8c4610$45a4d230$@net> References: , <008001d6eeb2$6c8c4610$45a4d230$@net> Message-ID: Out of curiosity, why do you think the pot is bad? Wayne Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 19, 2021, at 14:28, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> >> For a workaround: >> >> 1. Solder any same size pot with suitable long wires to the location >> (if possible) >> 2. Adjust the brightness to Your liking >> 3. Remove the pot >> 4. Measure the resistance >> 5. Solder a measured value resistor where the pot was. >> >> This way You get a fixed brightness and somewhat working computer. >> Now You can wait for a replacement pot and play with the computer. > > Thanks. We are not that bad off, yet. The system is fully working but the > screen brightness is way up so everything looks washed out and the screen > gets very hot. If I can't find a replacement I could always just leave it > alone or try to open the pot and see if I can repair the actual pot. If all > that fails the backup would be to either permanently solder in a resistor > (as you suggested) or use a pot with the same values which works but does > not allow the case to be closed. > > I am hoping to get the correct part though.... I have found a replacement > pot for the speaker knob (same family, different resistance value) so I am > hopeful it may be just a matter of time. > From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Tue Jan 19 18:17:56 2021 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 00:17:56 +0000 Subject: Looking for a potentiometer for restoration project In-Reply-To: <009701d6eebb$eeeddf70$ccc99e50$@net> References: , <008001d6eeb2$6c8c4610$45a4d230$@net> , <009701d6eebb$eeeddf70$ccc99e50$@net> Message-ID: Just for clarification, a pot has 3 tabs. Ohmeter measuring across the 2 ?end? tabs should indicate the total resistance of the pot (10k, 50k, 500k ohms, whatever the schematic says). If the measurement is infinite then the potentiometer is open broken. If you get that reading, you might want to open one end of the pot and remeasure just to be sure. If it measures close to the schematic value then measure one of the ends and the center tab and rotating the potentiometer should show different values as it?s rotated. Also measure the other side to the center and see if the values change in the other direction. Potentiometers are just an exposed piece of carbon ( or wirewound) with a wiper blade (the center tab) going across it. Sometimes the solid piece of carbon can break causing the open condition, but still providing somewhat variable resistance. It?s been my experience in repairing televisions that the brightness control rarely goes bad it?s usually some other component in the brightness circuit and a lot of times it?s just an aging CRT. I wasn?t able to see the pictures because you need to be a member of vcf. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 19, 2021, at 15:36, Ali wrote: > > ? >> >> >> Out of curiosity, why do you think the pot is bad? >> >> Wayne >> > > Wayne, > > I could be totally wrong here (EE definitely was not my major) but > > 1. Turning the pot does not change the brightness of the screen at all > 2. Measuring the pot and adjusting it (i.e. turning the knob) gives me a constant resistance reading. Doing the same thing with the volume pot gives me a range of resistances as expected. > > If my thinking is wrong or I should be doing another test I am open to hearing it. > > > -Ali > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 20 01:27:57 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 23:27:57 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/19/21 10:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Learning and using any programming language will cause some language > specific habits to become ingrained, and you may have to "unlearn" some > when you learn a new language. That doesn't necessarily make either > language bad. > Hence PL/I. You can wield your bad programming habits in three languages all within the same program unit. --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Jan 20 02:38:21 2021 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 00:38:21 -0800 Subject: Looking for old Compaq software - COMPAQ System Manager Facility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d501d6ef07$9cd2ab70$d6780250$@net> > For a workaround: > > This way You get a fixed brightness and somewhat working computer. > Now You can wait for a replacement pot and play with the computer. So turns out the pot itself is good after further testing. Of course now the question is why won't the brightness adjust on the machine? -Ali From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Jan 20 07:24:33 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 08:24:33 -0500 Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: <1772D4DB-C855-4A87-A534-01E915A1083E@comcast.net> References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> <1772D4DB-C855-4A87-A534-01E915A1083E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <85f941ae-1e97-1389-f1b8-2e0391256275@alembic.crystel.com> > David pointed out #3 is incorrect. I was thinking of totem-pole drivers, but the drivers in the MFM interface are all open collector. So the usage conflict between RD52 using "drive sel 4" as an output vs. the controller also doing that is not actually a problem at all. Makes sense: I was able to image an RD50 here, those things are oh so slow but kind of cute. Practically speaking though, it's pretty much a museum piece. Are you planning on running RSTS/E on the Pro? That would be neat.... C From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 20 08:02:10 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 09:02:10 -0500 Subject: David Gesswein's MFM emulator on the DEC Professional In-Reply-To: <85f941ae-1e97-1389-f1b8-2e0391256275@alembic.crystel.com> References: <2A0AFAFB-A83A-4A3D-B25B-18E2A51CF8C3@comcast.net> <449A80E3-3707-45E3-9626-3E9D333235EB@comcast.net> <1772D4DB-C855-4A87-A534-01E915A1083E@comcast.net> <85f941ae-1e97-1389-f1b8-2e0391256275@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <67CEA38D-0791-4E1E-8DFD-A937685EA330@comcast.net> > On Jan 20, 2021, at 8:24 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> David pointed out #3 is incorrect. I was thinking of totem-pole drivers, but the drivers in the MFM interface are all open collector. So the usage conflict between RD52 using "drive sel 4" as an output vs. the controller also doing that is not actually a problem at all. > > Makes sense: I was able to image an RD50 here, those things are oh so slow but kind of cute. Practically speaking though, it's pretty much a museum piece. > > Are you planning on running RSTS/E on the Pro? That would be neat.... Yes. I ported RSTS to the PRO a long time ago, and I still have it. Runs fine. One of these days I need to find a clean way to make it available. And I need to finish that DECNA driver. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jan 20 11:16:23 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 12:16:23 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/20/21 1:01 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 4:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> A viewpoint opposed to mine: >> "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be >> regarded as a criminal offense." - Edsger Dijkstra >> > > As much as I generally highly respect Dijkstra, I agree with Fred, not > Dijkstra, on this one. After reading many of Dijkstra's one liners I find I don't like him or his opinions at all. > COBOL was a remarkably good language for the problem > domain for which it was intended. As with all tools, it is less good for > other problem domains. COBOL came from a time when most languages were domain specific. It is sad that things like efficiency and proper design have been abandoned in favor of general purpose languages and solutions. > > Learning and using any programming language will cause some language > specific habits to become ingrained, and you may have to "unlearn" some > when you learn a new language. That doesn't necessarily make either > language bad. > Learning many different paradigms makes it easier to and more likely that you will choose the right tool for the job. In the world of general purpose languages all you have is a hammer and so all tasks look like nails. bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 20 15:05:37 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:05:37 -0700 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <69a83b09-b765-077f-d336-b03e55fa771c@gmail.com> <0bca4061-e671-4613-47c7-572b202ef8ab@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3246ff52-751e-14f1-a464-fd9288aba256@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/20/2021 10:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Learning many different paradigms makes it easier to and more > likely that you will choose the right tool for the job.? In > the world of general purpose languages all you have is a hammer > and so all tasks look like nails. > > bill > I don't see languages in general have improved since the the mid 1960's. Hardware and language models don't reflect each other, and don't have extendable data sizes and types. PL/I seems to have been the best,but too tied to IBM. C standard 2131 complex numbers C standard 2143 dubble complex numbers Every machine I can think of had a carry flag of some type yet no language uses that to extend it self. I don't believe in objects because data structures don't have classes, but are more similar to each other. A window A structure is like window B but details are different. That makes things look portable when they are not. Constants still seem to be embedded in data structures, rather than abstract. -- zero array define LIMIT abc blah array[LIMIT] ... i = 0 while i< LIMIT array[i] = 0 i = i + 1 endw I would like say let LIMIT = abc blah array[LIMIT] i = 0 while i< array:LIMIT array[i] = 0 i = i + 1 endw Ben. From tomas at basun.net Thu Jan 21 09:42:32 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:42:32 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers Message-ID: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> People, I'm trying to wrap my head around cc:Mail version numbers. Various products such as Mobile and Gateways have their own separate series of numbers, but the main products seem to be as follows. Release Database Appeared in 1? ? ? 2? 6? ? 3? 6? ? 4? 6 ? 5 6 1995 6 8 1996 7? 8 ? 8 8 1997 I saw someplace that I cannot find now that DB6 is from 1989. Can anybody fill in the missing numbers? So for example, there is a package on Ebay right now https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOTUS-ccMAIL-in-original-box-diskettes-manuals-Windows-RARE-FIND-collector/174452900408?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dd0b3f241862d43ba8ffcc0711fa0db5a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D174452900408%26itm%3D174452900408%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DLotus&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad835a615-5bfd-11eb-ae22-c6a85c3e0ab8%7Cparentrq%3A25932a651770ad396933e700ffb473bd%7Ciid%3A1 that seems to say `Release 2.01' and 1993. How does that compute? /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Thu Jan 21 09:48:38 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:48:38 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87sg6ujnop.wl-tomas@basun.net> R3 1992 also On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:42:32 +0100, Tomas By wrote: > Release Database Appeared in > 1? ? ? > 2? 6? ? > 3? 6? 1992 > 4? 6 ? > 5 6 1995 > 6 8 1996 > 7? 8 ? > 8 8 1997 /Tomas From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 21 09:59:25 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 10:59:25 -0500 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: <87sg6ujnop.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87sg6ujnop.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: I was using CC:Mail at Westinghouse in 1988. Very small mailbox limits, I remember having to run compacts on the Novell server a lot back then. The system was using a flat file database on the server, each client would interact directly with the mail database. Easy to corrupt, big pain in the rear. No VAPs were used on the server, so it was truly client only. About 40 people in the office if I remember. Had a CC:Mail Async gateway set up to communicate with the office in Beltsville MD. When I went to the Computer Society in 1995, we had CC:Mail deployed without a server. Implememented a server, the system still needed constant compacting and purging (2gb mail limit or something like that) so I went with Lotus Domino Notes and never looked back. The SMTP gateway for CC:Mail would crash a lot, so switching it from DOS to OS2 fixed the reliability problems. Say what you will about Notes, but it *never* corrupted the mail data store. Ran that on OS/2 server, then Windows NT 4.0. C On 1/21/2021 10:48 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > R3 1992 also > > On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:42:32 +0100, Tomas By wrote: >> Release Database Appeared in >> 1? ? ? >> 2? 6? ? >> 3? 6? 1992 >> 4? 6 ? >> 5 6 1995 >> 6 8 1996 >> 7? 8 ? >> 8 8 1997 > > /Tomas > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jan 21 10:00:42 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 11:00:42 -0500 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: <87sg6ujnop.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87sg6ujnop.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <780cf201-e785-108f-fdfd-17658657acee@alembic.crystel.com> CC:Mail used to have "Versions" in the 80's if I recall. "Releases" came when Lotus bought them. C On 1/21/2021 10:48 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > R3 1992 also > > On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:42:32 +0100, Tomas By wrote: >> Release Database Appeared in >> 1? ? ? >> 2? 6? ? >> 3? 6? 1992 >> 4? 6 ? >> 5 6 1995 >> 6 8 1996 >> 7? 8 ? >> 8 8 1997 > > /Tomas > From tomas at basun.net Thu Jan 21 10:04:16 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:04:16 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: <780cf201-e785-108f-fdfd-17658657acee@alembic.crystel.com> References: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87sg6ujnop.wl-tomas@basun.net> <780cf201-e785-108f-fdfd-17658657acee@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <87im7qjmyn.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:00:42 +0100, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > CC:Mail used to have "Versions" in the 80's if I recall. "Releases" > came when Lotus bought them. Ok, so 1,2,3 happened quickly? Or did they start at 2 or 3? /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Thu Jan 21 10:07:29 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:07:29 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: References: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87sg6ujnop.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87h7najmta.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:59:25 +0100, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > [...] Easy to corrupt, big pain in the rear. [...] > still needed constant compacting and purging [...] Well, what I am at looking at is having one single user, and running it emulated, so I think it seems like a good solution (only files plus one separate program per task). /Tomas From jonas at otter.se Thu Jan 21 10:27:46 2021 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:27:46 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 76, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8659342c-e95b-e8da-4dc5-0c5fc2db3f87@otter.se> On 2021-01-20 19:00, "Ali" wrote: > Message: 14 > Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 00:38:21 -0800 > From: "Ali" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Subject: RE: Looking for old Compaq software - COMPAQ System Manager > Facility > Message-ID: <00d501d6ef07$9cd2ab70$d6780250$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> For a workaround: >> >> This way You get a fixed brightness and somewhat working computer. >> Now You can wait for a replacement pot and play with the computer. > So turns out the pot itself is good after further testing. Of course now the > question is why won't the brightness adjust on the machine? > > -Ali Something supposed to be connected to the pot is not connected anymore? I am guessing a) the connection to the wiper is broken somewhere, or the circuitry connected to it is broken, or b) the ground end of the pot has a broken connection to ground /Jonas From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 21 10:56:58 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 08:56:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: <87im7qjmyn.wl-tomas@basun.net> from Tomas By via cctalk at "Jan 21, 21 05:04:16 pm" Message-ID: <202101211656.10LGuw3T19988720@floodgap.com> > > CC:Mail used to have "Versions" in the 80's if I recall. "Releases" > > came when Lotus bought them. > > Ok, so 1,2,3 happened quickly? At least from Lotus' point of view ... (scnr) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You're never too old to become younger. -- Mae West ------------------------ From spedraja at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 11:09:25 2021 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 18:09:25 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: In my company we were using cc:Mail version 4 around 1994. I installed that one, plus cc:mail for UUCP previously around 1993 in one of our departments. Regards Sergio El jue., 21 ene. 2021 16:42, Tomas By via cctalk escribi?: > People, > > I'm trying to wrap my head around cc:Mail version numbers. > > Various products such as Mobile and Gateways have their own separate > series of numbers, but the main products seem to be as follows. > > > Release Database Appeared in > 1? ? ? > 2? 6? ? > 3? 6? ? > 4? 6 ? > 5 6 1995 > 6 8 1996 > 7? 8 ? > 8 8 1997 > > > I saw someplace that I cannot find now that DB6 is from 1989. > > Can anybody fill in the missing numbers? > > So for example, there is a package on Ebay right now > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOTUS-ccMAIL-in-original-box-diskettes-manuals-Windows-RARE-FIND-collector/174452900408?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dd0b3f241862d43ba8ffcc0711fa0db5a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D174452900408%26itm%3D174452900408%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DLotus&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad835a615-5bfd-11eb-ae22-c6a85c3e0ab8%7Cparentrq%3A25932a651770ad396933e700ffb473bd%7Ciid%3A1 > > that seems to say `Release 2.01' and 1993. How does that compute? > > /Tomas > From tomas at basun.net Thu Jan 21 11:16:27 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 18:16:27 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail version numbers In-Reply-To: References: <87wnw6jnyv.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87zh12i51w.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 18:09:25 +0100, Sergio Pedraja wrote: > In my company we were using cc:Mail version 4 around 1994. I > installed that one, plus cc:mail for UUCP previously around 1993 in > one of our departments. Ok, thanks. On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:48:38 +0100, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Release Database Appeared in > 1? ? ? > 2 6? ? > 3 6? 1992 > 4 6 1993 > 5 6 1995 > 6 8 1996 > 7? 8 ? > 8 8 1997 /Tomas From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jan 21 19:43:39 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 20:43:39 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives Message-ID: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> I recently ran into an archive of various Pro 300 items, mostly from DECUS I believe. That includes a full P/OS 3.2 distribution including (!) DECnet/Pro if I saw that right. It's at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/ What makes things somewhat painful is that it's LHA compressed Teledisk images, which is an ancient DOS based floppy imaging tool. The instructions say to run Teledisk on a DOS system with a 5.25 inch floppy drive to write the images to RX50 floppies, which can then be used. If you don't have DOS handy, or would rather get floppy image files for use with Xhomer, this can work but it's a bit painful. I found there's a simpler way. 1. Decompress the LHA files. On a Mac, the unarchiver (I think that comes with the OS?) handles that format. On other operating systems, I assume it's equally straightforward to find a tool that handles this. You now have a pile of *.TD0 files, which are the TeleDisk format files. 2. From http://www.seasip.info/Unix/LibDsk/ install LibDsk 1.5 (not 1.4). 3. Use the dsktrans tool you got from step 2 to convert each *.TD0 file to a raw image, like this: dsktrans -otype raw PRO177/177-21.TD0 proinstallv32.dsk "raw" format means a straight sector dump in physical order; this is the format expected by xHomer. If for any reason you want a logical order image, for example to give to the SIMH "rq" device that emulates an RQDXn controller, you'll need a tool that reorders things. I have one in my RSTS file system tool "flx" (V3 in Python, not the earlier 2.6 in C), "rx50.py". I can supply more details if needed. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 22:13:41 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 23:13:41 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: I could upload LHA if you need a copy. This is what I used back in the early 90's, because one could incorporate it with DOS batch files nicely Bill On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 8:43 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I recently ran into an archive of various Pro 300 items, mostly from DECUS > I believe. That includes a full P/OS 3.2 distribution including (!) > DECnet/Pro if I saw that right. > > It's at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/ > > What makes things somewhat painful is that it's LHA compressed Teledisk > images, which is an ancient DOS based floppy imaging tool. The > instructions say to run Teledisk on a DOS system with a 5.25 inch floppy > drive to write the images to RX50 floppies, which can then be used. > > If you don't have DOS handy, or would rather get floppy image files for > use with Xhomer, this can work but it's a bit painful. > > I found there's a simpler way. > > 1. Decompress the LHA files. On a Mac, the unarchiver (I think that comes > with the OS?) handles that format. On other operating systems, I assume > it's equally straightforward to find a tool that handles this. You now > have a pile of *.TD0 files, which are the TeleDisk format files. > > 2. From http://www.seasip.info/Unix/LibDsk/ install LibDsk 1.5 (not 1.4). > > 3. Use the dsktrans tool you got from step 2 to convert each *.TD0 file to > a raw image, like this: > dsktrans -otype raw PRO177/177-21.TD0 proinstallv32.dsk > "raw" format means a straight sector dump in physical order; this is > the format expected by xHomer. > > If for any reason you want a logical order image, for example to give to > the SIMH "rq" device that emulates an RQDXn controller, you'll need a tool > that reorders things. I have one in my RSTS file system tool "flx" (V3 in > Python, not the earlier 2.6 in C), "rx50.py". I can supply more details if > needed. > > paul > > From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jan 21 22:20:51 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 21:20:51 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hey Paul... This is really helpful. I've had to deal with those archives for the Rainbow stuff I do and have some additional caveats below I thought I'd share... On Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 6:43 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I recently ran into an archive of various Pro 300 items, mostly from DECUS > I believe. That includes a full P/OS 3.2 distribution including (!) > DECnet/Pro if I saw that right. > > It's at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/ > > What makes things somewhat painful is that it's LHA compressed Teledisk > images, which is an ancient DOS based floppy imaging tool. The > instructions say to run Teledisk on a DOS system with a 5.25 inch floppy > drive to write the images to RX50 floppies, which can then be used. > Those instructions are dated. These days the cool kids use imagedisk to convert the teledisks to imd format. Usually in dosbox... or they use unix variants of these... The real pain is that the lha has evolved since then and some of the lha archives there use methods libarchive won't grok... If you don't have DOS handy, or would rather get floppy image files for use > with Xhomer, this can work but it's a bit painful. > > I found there's a simpler way. > > 1. Decompress the LHA files. On a Mac, the unarchiver (I think that comes > with the OS?) handles that format. On other operating systems, I assume > it's equally straightforward to find a tool that handles this. You now > have a pile of *.TD0 files, which are the TeleDisk format files. > Some, but not all the archives.. macos uses libarchive under the covers. Most of the td0 I've found decompress, but archive with smaller files are troubling.... 2. From http://www.seasip.info/Unix/LibDsk/ install LibDsk 1.5 (not 1.4). > This package is good, though there is also a smaller wteledisk that converts to sector images. 3. Use the dsktrans tool you got from step 2 to convert each *.TD0 file to > a raw image, like this: > dsktrans -otype raw PRO177/177-21.TD0 proinstallv32.dsk > "raw" format means a straight sector dump in physical order; this is > the format expected by xHomer. > Yea. I'm using this to convert td0 files to imd files... If for any reason you want a logical order image, for example to give to > the SIMH "rq" device that emulates an RQDXn controller, you'll need a tool > that reorders things. I have one in my RSTS file system tool "flx" (V3 in > Python, not the earlier 2.6 in C), "rx50.py". I can supply more details if > needed. > I have a c program that does physical to logical and vive versa for the rainbow, as well as optionally putting the PBP at the front of the disk so mtools groks the images (though you'd want to do this with a copy)... though the pro never really had much support for msdos floppies... All of these formats are understood by MESS's rainbow driver... Warner paul > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 22 09:32:53 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 10:32:53 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 21, 2021, at 11:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > Hey Paul... > > This is really helpful. I've had to deal with those archives for the Rainbow stuff I do and have some additional caveats below I thought I'd share... Thanks for that information. Part of my motivation is that I mostly run Mac OS, and after that Linux -- not DOS let alone Windows. So I was hoping to find a Unix solution which is what I documented. Now I have two additional questions. 1. In the PRO177 collection (P/OS 3.2 base system) the image 177-20 which is the ProSetupV32 disk seems to be bad. It converts fine, but the converted file is 160k, not 400k as it should be. If I pad it out with zeroes it still doesn't work, even though the data at the start looks plausible. Any advice? Is there a good one somewhere? Tim Shoppa's copy has the same issue. 2. The Xhomer P/OS image has Pro/DECnet installed, it seems, but it doesn't work. I see the floppies (5 of them) but no information on how to use them. Any information on Pro/DECnet install and setup anywhere? paul From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jan 22 10:09:00 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 09:09:00 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:32 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jan 21, 2021, at 11:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > Hey Paul... > > > > This is really helpful. I've had to deal with those archives for the > Rainbow stuff I do and have some additional caveats below I thought I'd > share... > > Thanks for that information. > > Part of my motivation is that I mostly run Mac OS, and after that Linux -- > not DOS let alone Windows. So I was hoping to find a Unix solution which > is what I documented. > dosbox runs on macos :). > Now I have two additional questions. > > 1. In the PRO177 collection (P/OS 3.2 base system) the image 177-20 which > is the ProSetupV32 disk seems to be bad. It converts fine, but the > converted file is 160k, not 400k as it should be. If I pad it out with > zeroes it still doesn't work, even though the data at the start looks > plausible. Any advice? Is there a good one somewhere? Tim Shoppa's copy > has the same issue. > The DEC Robin/VT180 had a format that was 160k long. It's 1 side, 40 tracks, 8 sectors. Though I can't imagine it being valid in context... Have you tried the copies that are at https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vmslt02a/pro/ ? tar tvf 177-20.lzh -rw-rw-rw- 0 0 0 245921 Oct 22 1993 177-20.TD0 which suggests a 'normal' size to me... Though I've not decoded it, and it's possible the original was corrupt somehow... > 2. The Xhomer P/OS image has Pro/DECnet installed, it seems, but it > doesn't work. I see the floppies (5 of them) but no information on how to > use them. Any information on Pro/DECnet install and setup anywhere? > pro175 Pro/DECnet came up in my searches. It's also there. There's a pro175.txt that has: Following is a list of the manuals you will receive when you order Media Service Charge Code (EE): "PRO/DECnet User's Guide" "PRO/DECnet Problem Determination Guide" Notes: This program is also included on DECUS No. VS0112. Restrictions: A DECNA module is required to use the NET1 port on the rear of the system unit. Documentation available in hardcopy only. Sources not included. though I wasn't able to find it in the usual places, nor by searching for AA-V445A-TH which is the document ID number for the first one (I could just find references to it). Warner From bdweb at mindspring.com Fri Jan 22 10:28:57 2021 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 11:28:57 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: I had no problem expanding disk 177-20. I did it on a Linux system using wteledisk (which I got from https://github.com/jmechnich/wteledsk.git) using this script: for d in ~/downloads/decpro_software/ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/PRO* ; do ??? newname=$(basename $d | tr [A-Z] [a-z]) ??? mkdir decus/$newname ??? cd decus/$newname ??? for f in $d/*.lzh ; do ??? lha -x $f ??? done ??? for f in *.td0 ; do ??? ~/build/wteledsk/src/wteledsk $f -o`basename $f .td0`.dsk ??? done ??? cd ../.. done Here's what the files look like: $ ls -la build/pos32/decus/pro177/177-20.dsk downloads/decpro_software/ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/PRO177/177-20.lzh -rw------- 1 user group 409600 May 16? 2020 build/pos32/decus/pro177/177-20.dsk -rw-r--r-- 1 user group 152827 Oct 22? 1993 downloads/decpro_software/ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/PRO177/177-20.lzh $ md5sum build/pos32/decus/pro177/177-20.dsk downloads/decpro_software/ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/PRO177/177-20.lzh ca88b1d528dab3a5b3c1aaed1dd0f215 build/pos32/decus/pro177/177-20.dsk fae286c23044d1cac4d412c64afce0f6 downloads/decpro_software/ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/PRO177/177-20.lzh Did you possibly download a corrupted copy of 177-20.lzh? --Bjoren On 1/22/2021 11:09 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:32 AM Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>> On Jan 21, 2021, at 11:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >>> >>> Hey Paul... >>> >>> This is really helpful. I've had to deal with those archives for the >> Rainbow stuff I do and have some additional caveats below I thought I'd >> share... >> >> Thanks for that information. >> >> Part of my motivation is that I mostly run Mac OS, and after that Linux -- >> not DOS let alone Windows. So I was hoping to find a Unix solution which >> is what I documented. >> > dosbox runs on macos :). > > >> Now I have two additional questions. >> >> 1. In the PRO177 collection (P/OS 3.2 base system) the image 177-20 which >> is the ProSetupV32 disk seems to be bad. It converts fine, but the >> converted file is 160k, not 400k as it should be. If I pad it out with >> zeroes it still doesn't work, even though the data at the start looks >> plausible. Any advice? Is there a good one somewhere? Tim Shoppa's copy >> has the same issue. >> > The DEC Robin/VT180 had a format that was 160k long. It's 1 side, 40 > tracks, 8 sectors. Though I can't imagine it being valid in context... > > Have you tried the copies that are at > https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vmslt02a/pro/ ? > > tar tvf 177-20.lzh > -rw-rw-rw- 0 0 0 245921 Oct 22 1993 177-20.TD0 > > which suggests a 'normal' size to me... Though I've not decoded it, and > it's possible the original was corrupt somehow... > > >> 2. The Xhomer P/OS image has Pro/DECnet installed, it seems, but it >> doesn't work. I see the floppies (5 of them) but no information on how to >> use them. Any information on Pro/DECnet install and setup anywhere? >> > pro175 Pro/DECnet came up in my searches. It's also there. There's a > pro175.txt that has: > > Following is a list of the manuals you will receive when you > order Media Service Charge Code (EE): > "PRO/DECnet User's Guide" > "PRO/DECnet Problem Determination Guide" > > Notes: This program is also included on DECUS No. VS0112. > > Restrictions: A DECNA module is required to use the NET1 port on the > rear of the system unit. > > Documentation available in hardcopy only. Sources not included. > > though I wasn't able to find it in the usual places, nor by searching for > AA-V445A-TH which is the document ID number for the first one (I could just > find references to it). > > Warner From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 22 11:49:17 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 12:49:17 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: Will try that tool. I tried the alternate copy Warner mentioned, same result. "dskid" tells me that dsklib thinks of this particular file as a 40 track 8 sector image, not 80 track 10 sectors as it's supposed to be and all the other are. paul > On Jan 22, 2021, at 11:28 AM, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > > I had no problem expanding disk 177-20. > > I did it on a Linux system using wteledisk (which I got from https://github.com/jmechnich/wteledsk.git) using this script: ... From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 22 13:00:04 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 14:00:04 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 22, 2021, at 11:28 AM, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > > I had no problem expanding disk 177-20. > > I did it on a Linux system using wteledisk (which I got from https://github.com/jmechnich/wteledsk.git) using this script: ... Thanks for the pointer. That tools did the job. Strange that only that one disk produced a problem with dsklib. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 22 13:23:39 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 14:23:39 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro 3xx archives In-Reply-To: References: <33269D53-5BE4-45B5-A1F0-65E1CBE2B868@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 22, 2021, at 10:32 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > ... > Now I have two additional questions. > > 2. The Xhomer P/OS image has Pro/DECnet installed, it seems, but it doesn't work. I see the floppies (5 of them) but no information on how to use them. Any information on Pro/DECnet install and setup anywhere? I looked more closely and it turns out that Pro/DECnet is *not* on the Xhomer supplied P/OS image. I tried to install it, using the "install application" tool in P/OS, pointing to the decnetv21x disk image. Tried that both on the Xhomer image, and on a freshly created image from an OS install using the disk images in the PRO177 directory. Same result for both. The install does a little work but then quickly gives me a message to the effect that it needs to be run by a privileged user, enter RESUME to leave. I thought that "SYSTEM" would be a privileged user? Apparently not, so what do I do instead? The resulting state of the system is that it has created a menu entry for the Pro/DECnet management tool, but attempting to run that produces an abort message complaining about missing files. So apparently the install failed (as the message indicated) but didn't clean up stuff it left behind. I'd like to get this running, if for no other reason than to confirm my CNA is operational. paul From jesse at cypress-tech.com Fri Jan 22 11:19:34 2021 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 12:19:34 -0500 Subject: HP1000 A990 Servers Message-ID: I have a few of these A990 boxes. They are complete with memory, internal disk & DAT, & any 1000 interface you could possibly need. They are the smaller 14-slot Micro boxes so a small footprint. I'm doing a few of them for $1,300.00 each.. If anyone wants one, let me know. The ebay link is below and feel free to ask me any questions about them. www.ebay.com/itm/383752338096 Thanks Jesse Cypress Tech From mcr at martin-reilly.com Sat Jan 23 09:49:52 2021 From: mcr at martin-reilly.com (Martin Reilly) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 15:49:52 -0000 Subject: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? In-Reply-To: <82F4FBA4-DCF7-4560-8A23-9AE15D00B09B@forecast.name> References: <12657825-163e-c389-04f1-78eab2a3bf71@alembic.crystel.com> <82F4FBA4-DCF7-4560-8A23-9AE15D00B09B@forecast.name> Message-ID: <000001d6f19f$65188c50$2f49a4f0$@martin-reilly.com> I have DSM-11 V4.0 (or it may be 4.1?) on a TK50 cartridge somewhere. When I manage to get my MFM emulator board playing nicely in my 11/83 I could try building a base system for people to play with. I looked after eight DSM-11 systems for ten years (3x 11/70, 1x 11/44, 2x 11/84 and an 11/83 - the one I have at home now). I've probably forgotten most of what I knew back then but I can still find my way around a system. I loved Mumps as a language - breaks just about every rule of well behaved languages but so powerful with the integrated database handling. Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of John Forecast via cctalk Sent: 08 January 2021 20:48 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online? A slightly newer version (3.3) is available from bitsaver.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/dsm-11 John. > On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:16 PM, Sergio Pedraja via cctalk wrote: > > Any copy of this software available to play with? > > Sergio From tomas at basun.net Sat Jan 23 11:42:13 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 18:42:13 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail Message-ID: <87pn1v8s96.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi all, I don't suppose there is anybody here who has `Lotus cc:Mail Router Release 5.1' ? /Tomas From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 23 12:46:52 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 13:46:52 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator Message-ID: <09252267-3284-4E5F-BAE1-8DF383871D3F@comcast.net> The question was asked (I misplaced the note) if the OS images that are on the Xhomer website work with David Gesswein's MFM emulator on real hardware. You can turn these into emulator data files, provided you have the latest ext2emu tool that's part of David's software (as of 1/19/2021). The format needed is "Elektronika_85" which is the Pro format, called that because it was first added to the emulator as the format found on the Russian bootleg copy of the Pro of that name. Results, on my Pro 380: 1. P/OS 3.2: works. 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean anything to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. 3. RT-11 5.3: works. For grins I tried a smaller interleave factor than the default 5:1, since it seems reasonable that this should make things go faster on the Pro 380, given that its CPU is about 4x the speed of the one in the Pro 350. Somewhat to my surprise this isn't the case; the performance indicates that at 4:1 or smaller interleave the software misses the next sector and has to wait for another revolution. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jan 23 12:54:41 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 11:54:41 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: <09252267-3284-4E5F-BAE1-8DF383871D3F@comcast.net> References: <09252267-3284-4E5F-BAE1-8DF383871D3F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 11:47 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The question was asked (I misplaced the note) if the OS images that are on > the Xhomer website work with David Gesswein's MFM emulator on real hardware. > > You can turn these into emulator data files, provided you have the latest > ext2emu tool that's part of David's software (as of 1/19/2021). The format > needed is "Elektronika_85" which is the Pro format, called that because it > was first added to the emulator as the format found on the Russian bootleg > copy of the Pro of that name. > > Results, on my Pro 380: > > 1. P/OS 3.2: works. > 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean anything > to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. > The Venix image is special. Venix doesn't support more than 16 sectors per track. You may need to put it on a disk whose geometry is 16spt. Maybe that is why? Venix should support both the 350 and 380. Warner 3. RT-11 5.3: works. > > For grins I tried a smaller interleave factor than the default 5:1, since > it seems reasonable that this should make things go faster on the Pro 380, > given that its CPU is about 4x the speed of the one in the Pro 350. > Somewhat to my surprise this isn't the case; the performance indicates that > at 4:1 or smaller interleave the software misses the next sector and has to > wait for another revolution. > > paul > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jan 23 13:05:11 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 14:05:11 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: References: <09252267-3284-4E5F-BAE1-8DF383871D3F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <19389D01-E906-4806-A407-424817413708@comcast.net> > On Jan 23, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 11:47 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The question was asked (I misplaced the note) if the OS images that are on the Xhomer website work with David Gesswein's MFM emulator on real hardware. > > You can turn these into emulator data files, provided you have the latest ext2emu tool that's part of David's software (as of 1/19/2021). The format needed is "Elektronika_85" which is the Pro format, called that because it was first added to the emulator as the format found on the Russian bootleg copy of the Pro of that name. > > Results, on my Pro 380: > > 1. P/OS 3.2: works. > 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean anything to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. > > The Venix image is special. Venix doesn't support more than 16 sectors per track. You may need to put it on a disk whose geometry is 16spt. Maybe that is why? Venix should support both the 350 and 380. That doesn't explain it, because all hard drives on the Pro by definition have 16 sectors per track. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 23 15:00:33 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 13:00:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: <19389D01-E906-4806-A407-424817413708@comcast.net> from Paul Koning via cctalk at "Jan 23, 21 02:05:11 pm" Message-ID: <202101232100.10NL0X5q19071164@floodgap.com> > > > 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean anything > > > to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. > > > > The Venix image is special. Venix doesn't support more than 16 sectors > > per track. You may need to put it on a disk whose geometry is 16spt. Maybe > > that is why? Venix should support both the 350 and 380. > > That doesn't explain it, because all hard drives on the Pro by definition > have 16 sectors per track. Venix runs fine on my 380. In fact, it's the only OS installed on it. It has the stock hard disk, though I'd like to convert to solid state, so I've been reading this thread with interest. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honey, are you incapable of complexity? -- "Mountains Beyond Mountains" ---- From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 24 01:45:52 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 07:45:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 3000, APL\3000, the HP 2641A APL Display Station, and stuff. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <985740168.721691.1611474352269@mail.yahoo.com> Gavin!? you are to be commended? for? this? project!?Will put? on? file? at? smecc museum and at some? point? set up? a instance of it running? on a? system here.?Oddly? we? have a laptop that? works in apl and? saves? data? to a dictation? type? mini cassette? type? of? storage media!?side issue? ?drop me? Dave Elward's email or? have? him? contact me.? thanks? ed#?In a message dated 9/27/2020 2:22:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? As some people here are aware, I have spent probably too much time this summerhacking on J. David Bryan's excellent Classic HP 3000 simulator and trying tobuild up the ultimate classic 1980s HP 3000 system (virtually speaking).?I started with the MPE V/R KIT that's widely available and expanded that into a5x120MB HP 7925 disc system and configured things like the system directorysize and all the system tables to make a fully functional multi-user server.?I then set about collecting as much old MPE software as I could find, whichincluded Keven Miller's collection of the old Contributed Software Library tapeswhich were conveniently available in SIMH format. This is a huge trove of coolstuff including most of the classic mini/mainframe games (Dungeon, Warp,Advent, etc., etc.) and even a little game called DRAGONS that was written in1980 by a guy named Bruce Nesmith when he was in college and he used itto get a job at TSR and went on to write parts of many classic D&D productsand eventually landed at Bethesda where among other things he was thelead designer for another little game called The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. I wasable to track Bruce down and give him a copy of the system with his 40 yearold game running on it. The CSL tapes also include other amazing goodiesthat people developed and gave away over the years, including a FORTH andLISP, as well as most of the system and utility programs that people used torun their 3000 shops. It's quite fun to explore.?I was curious how far we could push the 3000 simulator, so I hacked allthe memory bank registers to be six bits instead of four bits, and wenow have a simulated HP 3000 Series III that supports 8MB of memory, 4xmore than any physical system ever did. I started trying to do the same thingfor giant disc drives, but MPE turned out to have too much knowledge ofwhat the supported disc models look like to make it practical. Bummer.?Since I met my first HP 3000 in 1980 (40 years ago this month), people wouldtalk about what was probably the most rare and exotic HP software subsystemever produced, APL\3000. APL on the 3000 was a project started at HP Labsin Palo Alto in the early 1970s. They were likely motivated by the success IBMwas having with mainframe APL timesharing services. This would be the firstfull APL implementation on a "small" (non-mainframe) computer. It would be thefirst APL with a compiler (and a byte-code virtual machine to execute thecompiled code), it would include an additional new language APLGOL (APLwith ALGOL like structured control statements), and it managed to supportAPL workspaces of unlimited size through a clever set of system CPUmicrocode extensions that provided a flat 32-bit addressing capability (ona 16-bit machine where every other language was limited to a 64KB datasegment).?Because APL required these extra special CPU instructions that you got asa set of ROM chips when you bought the $15,000 APL\3000, and becauseAPL ultimately failed as a product (another story in itself) and thus HP neverimplemented these instructions on their later HP 3000 models, I never sawit run on a real HP 3000, but over the years we talked about wouldn't it becool to find a way to get APL running again.?With assistance and moral support from Stan Sieler and Frank McConnelland others, I was ultimately able to reverse-engineer the behavior of theundocumented ten magic APL CPU instructions needed to get it to run andimplement them as part of the MPE unimplemented instruction trap and nowAPL\3000 runs again for the first time in ~35 years. Somewhat ironically, thisimplementation method could have been used back in 1980 as I didn'tactually end up changing the hardware simulation code at all, and it shouldalso run (if a bit slowly) on any physical classic architecture 3000.?So that was cool and all, but what is APL without all the weird overstruckcharacters and whatnot? APL\3000 supports the use of plain ASCII terminalsthrough blecherous trigraphs like "QD for the APL quad character, but thisis hardly satisfying. So the quest was on to find a solution. Back in 1976 whenAPL\3000 was released, there was a companion HP terminal in the 264x line,the HP 2641A APL Display Station, which was basically an HP 2645A withspecial firmware and APL character set ROMs that supported all the APLspecial characters as well as overstrikes (the terminal would take XYand lookup to see if it had a character to represent Y overstriking X and ifso it would show that on the display, and if that got transmitted to the host itwould convert it back into the original three character overstriking sequence).?I briefly looked into the idea of hacking QCTerm or Putty or something, butthen I found out from Curious Chris that an HP 2645A emulator already existedin the MAME emulator system! Since the '41 is basically just a '45 with modifiedfirmware, and Bitsavers had both the character set ROMs as well as thefirmware ROMs from a '41, this sounded like it might be easy! There was a snaghowever in that the firmware ROM images that were allegedly from a '41 turnedout to actually be from an ordinary '45. But we did have the character sets andone of the ROMs from the second CTL PCA. I put out a call on the Vintage HPlist to see if anyone might possibly have a lead on an actual HP 2641A, andKyle Owen responded that not only did he have one he could also dump theROMs for us. So a few days and a few hacks to F. Ulivi's MAME hp2645 driverlater we now have a functioning MAME HP 2641A terminal emulation, so youcan experience APL\3000 in all its original glory. I bundled up a somewhatstripped down MAME along with my turnkey 3000 setup so both emulated HPterminals are just a couple clicks away.?So that's how I spent my summer vacation (who am I kidding, it's pretty much allvacation these days). It has been a lot of fun revisiting all this old3000 stuff aswell as the numerous people I talked to along the way including some of thosewho were around at APL\3000's birth (before my time). It was rather a lot ofwork so I'd like to feel it might be useful to someone in the futurewho is digginginto this part of history. Because of all the usual reasons, I don'tplan on hostingit permanently until and unless we maybe someday get the licensing worked out(the 50th anniversary of the HP 3000 will be in a couple years so maybe peoplewill get interested again then) but I will offer it up here to myfellow computerhistory nuts if you want to help ensure that it doesn't vanish if Iget run over by abus or something :)?This is a simulated HP 3000 Series III (circa 1980) running MPE V/R (circa 1986)with 8MB of memory, all the language subsystems (APL, BASIC, BASICOMP, RPG,FORTRAN (66), SPL, PASCAL, COBOL (68), COBOL II (74)), 20 years of users groupcontributed software, many classic historical computer games, etc. Softwarearchaeologists can get lost in here for years. Oh, and thanks to DaveElward, theHP 2000 Timesharing BASIC contributed library is even included (kinda sortaconverted to MPE BASIC) for good measure. This is a streamlined turnkey editionthat's ready to run out of the box with no assembly required (allbatteries are included).Currently, I only provide executables for Windows (sorry) but am inthe process ofgetting the 3000 simulator changes (for large memory support) and the new MAMEhp2641 driver back upstream. Instructions and further details can befound in theREADME.txt hint book for this adventure. 94MB Google Drive link:?https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmXvHkBLbUeLAid73EJ4H1yQ2uwXQuRu?Gavin?P.S. I'm giving a talk on the history of APL\3000 and its resurrectionto the ACM APLBUGgroup in a couple weeks. If anyone is interested I can provide moredetails when I havethem. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 24 09:38:27 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 10:38:27 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: <202101232100.10NL0X5q19071164@floodgap.com> References: <202101232100.10NL0X5q19071164@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 23, 2021, at 4:00 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>> 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean anything >>>> to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. >>> >>> The Venix image is special. Venix doesn't support more than 16 sectors >>> per track. You may need to put it on a disk whose geometry is 16spt. Maybe >>> that is why? Venix should support both the 350 and 380. >> >> That doesn't explain it, because all hard drives on the Pro by definition >> have 16 sectors per track. > > Venix runs fine on my 380. In fact, it's the only OS installed on it. It has > the stock hard disk, though I'd like to convert to solid state, so I've been > reading this thread with interest. Interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the peripherals I have installed. I should try it again with the PC3XC and CNA pulled out. What is your configuration? Do you have EBO? Memory size? Option cards? paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 24 10:03:21 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 11:03:21 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: References: <202101232100.10NL0X5q19071164@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/21 10:38 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 23, 2021, at 4:00 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>>> 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean anything >>>>> to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. >>>> >>>> The Venix image is special. Venix doesn't support more than 16 sectors >>>> per track. You may need to put it on a disk whose geometry is 16spt. Maybe >>>> that is why? Venix should support both the 350 and 380. >>> >>> That doesn't explain it, because all hard drives on the Pro by definition >>> have 16 sectors per track. >> >> Venix runs fine on my 380. In fact, it's the only OS installed on it. It has >> the stock hard disk, though I'd like to convert to solid state, so I've been >> reading this thread with interest. > > Interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the peripherals I have installed. I should try it again with the PC3XC and CNA pulled out. > > What is your configuration? Do you have EBO? Memory size? Option cards? > Listening to these conversations make me really wish I had not given my 2 PRO's away. bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 24 10:40:17 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 11:40:17 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: References: <202101232100.10NL0X5q19071164@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Listening to these conversations make me really wish I had not > given my 2 PRO's away. They are neat, but they are so god-damned slow. Compiles on the pro/380 with an RD52 are 1/4th the speed of an 11/83 with a 330mb ESDI disk. It's to the point where I compile on the 83, then upload the results to the Pro to run. I wonder if compiling a true version of M+ could help: At least you could dedicate memory as a disk cache to get around that slug of a controller in there. But the lack of CPU cache, 10mhz processor, extremely slow disk speed, and the like really hurt the Pro. CZ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 24 10:48:13 2021 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 16:48:13 -0000 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: References: <202101232100.10NL0X5q19071164@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <03bf01d6f270$b71b58d0$25520a70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via > cctalk > Sent: 24 January 2021 16:40 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator > > > Listening to these conversations make me really wish I had not given > > my 2 PRO's away. I have two but neither of them works. I have made a couple of attempts to find the fault but failed so far. One of them is quite high on my list of the next thing to look at (again). Rob > > They are neat, but they are so god-damned slow. Compiles on the pro/380 > with an RD52 are 1/4th the speed of an 11/83 with a 330mb ESDI disk. > It's to the point where I compile on the 83, then upload the results to the Pro > to run. > > I wonder if compiling a true version of M+ could help: At least you could > dedicate memory as a disk cache to get around that slug of a controller in > there. > > But the lack of CPU cache, 10mhz processor, extremely slow disk speed, and > the like really hurt the Pro. > > CZ From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 24 10:51:30 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 11:51:30 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: References: <202101232100.10NL0X5q19071164@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/21 11:40 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Listening to these conversations make me really wish I had not >> given my 2 PRO's away. > > They are neat, but they are so god-damned slow. Compiles on the pro/380 > with an RD52 are 1/4th the speed of an 11/83 with a 330mb ESDI disk. > It's to the point where I compile on the 83, then upload the results to > the Pro to run. > > I wonder if compiling a true version of M+ could help: At least you > could dedicate memory as a disk cache to get around that slug of a > controller in there. > > But the lack of CPU cache, 10mhz processor, extremely slow disk speed, > and the like really hurt the Pro. Well, my first LSI-11 was a Terak 8510. It had 28KW of memory and 4 8" RX01 compatible floppies and an LSI-11/02 CPU. And I developed programs in Pascal, Fortran-77 and COBOL (yes, COBOL!!) on it. Now, there is slow. I would gladly take a screamer like any Pro over doing software development on the Terak. bill From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 24 10:53:52 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 08:53:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: from Paul Koning at "Jan 24, 21 10:38:27 am" Message-ID: <202101241653.10OGrqck11665500@floodgap.com> > > > 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean anything > > > to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. [...] > > Venix runs fine on my 380. In fact, it's the only OS installed on it. It has > > the stock hard disk, though I'd like to convert to solid state, so I've been > > reading this thread with interest. > > Interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the peripherals I have > installed. I should try it again with the PC3XC and CNA pulled out. > > What is your configuration? Do you have EBO? Memory size? Option cards? It's a pretty vanilla 380. I think it has just the 256K. No EBO, no option cards. RD52-A and RX50-AA. Note that I can't exclude that it has a 380-specific Venix installed; it came to me with it and I don't have floppies (part of why I'd like to convert it). But I don't recall Venix coming in a 380-specific version. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best of all: God is with us. -- John Wesley ---------------------------- From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 24 10:54:56 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 09:54:56 -0700 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: <202101241653.10OGrqck11665500@floodgap.com> References: <202101241653.10OGrqck11665500@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 9:53 AM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean > anything > > > > to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. > [...] > > > Venix runs fine on my 380. In fact, it's the only OS installed on it. > It has > > > the stock hard disk, though I'd like to convert to solid state, so > I've been > > > reading this thread with interest. > > > > Interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the peripherals I have > > installed. I should try it again with the PC3XC and CNA pulled out. > > > > What is your configuration? Do you have EBO? Memory size? Option > cards? > > It's a pretty vanilla 380. I think it has just the 256K. No EBO, no option > cards. RD52-A and RX50-AA. > > Note that I can't exclude that it has a 380-specific Venix installed; it > came > to me with it and I don't have floppies (part of why I'd like to convert > it). > But I don't recall Venix coming in a 380-specific version. > The Venix/Pro that's in the archives works on all Pros (1.0) but 2.0 requires the 380. Warner From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 24 10:57:57 2021 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 08:57:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Jan 24, 21 09:54:56 am" Message-ID: <202101241657.10OGvvg518612438@floodgap.com> > The Venix/Pro that's in the archives works on all Pros (1.0) but 2.0 > requires the 380. I should have said what it was running. It is indeed 2.0. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 24 11:27:10 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 12:27:10 -0500 Subject: Modifying a RXV21 for an 11/83 Message-ID: <0e4d38de-e813-e4da-ea67-37ea59b96e49@alembic.crystel.com> So I found an RXV21 board in the pile of stuff here and popped it into my 83. Crashes the system. It's an M8029 D board, and I see from this site that you have to add a few traces and cut a few others to make it work on an 11/73 or better. http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/ I'll pop in an 11/23+ CPU just to test it, but is it really just putting in two wires on the top of the board and cutting a total of three traces? Looks simple enough... C From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jan 24 13:43:07 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:43:07 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro operating systems and MFM emulator In-Reply-To: References: <202101241653.10OGrqck11665500@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 24, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 9:53 AM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>>> 2. Venix: panic at boot, "Bad access number". That doesn't mean >> anything >>>>> to me. I wonder if the issue is that Venix doesn't support the 380. >> [...] >>>> Venix runs fine on my 380. In fact, it's the only OS installed on it. >> It has >>>> the stock hard disk, though I'd like to convert to solid state, so >> I've been >>>> reading this thread with interest. >>> >>> Interesting. I wonder if it has to do with the peripherals I have >>> installed. I should try it again with the PC3XC and CNA pulled out. >>> >>> What is your configuration? Do you have EBO? Memory size? Option >> cards? >> >> It's a pretty vanilla 380. I think it has just the 256K. No EBO, no option >> cards. RD52-A and RX50-AA. >> >> Note that I can't exclude that it has a 380-specific Venix installed; it >> came >> to me with it and I don't have floppies (part of why I'd like to convert >> it). >> But I don't recall Venix coming in a 380-specific version. >> > > The Venix/Pro that's in the archives works on all Pros (1.0) but 2.0 > requires the 380. That's odd. The image I tried is "venix2" from the Xhomer website. From the name I'd guess that is V2.0, but it runs fine on Xhomer which is a 350 emulation. On the other hand, it panics (as I reported) on my Pro 380. paul From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Jan 24 17:13:09 2021 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 15:13:09 -0800 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2021, at 1:31 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. Although, it was generally not intended as a development machine, in its short life, several applications were developed. > It was primarily sold as a word processor ( quite powerful one at that ). It had Forth running under the word processor. One could do both assembly and other things once one understood how to access the Forth. > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. > It has a common problem that if you don't understand it will destroy the drive. What happens if it's not possible to talk to you? Can you write up just what the deal is with the drive, so that everyone can learn? -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Jan 24 17:16:08 2021 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 15:16:08 -0800 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <712A1297-B888-44A3-8213-BC688667833A@eschatologist.net> On Jan 24, 2021, at 3:13 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > What happens if it's not possible to talk to you? Can you write up just what the deal is with the drive, so that everyone can learn? And now I see that you've done so?thank you! -- Chris From jsw at ieee.org Sun Jan 24 18:41:26 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 18:41:26 -0600 Subject: Modifying a RXV21 for an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <0e4d38de-e813-e4da-ea67-37ea59b96e49@alembic.crystel.com> References: <0e4d38de-e813-e4da-ea67-37ea59b96e49@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/21 11:27 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > So I found an RXV21 board in the pile of stuff here and popped it into > my 83. Crashes the system. It's an M8029 D board, and I see from this > site that you have to add a few traces and cut a few others to make it > work on an 11/73 or better. > > http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/ > > I'll pop in an 11/23+ CPU just to test it, but is it really just > putting in two wires on the top of the board and cutting a total of > three traces? Looks simple enough... > > C My M8029 stamped Rev F? has three jumpers and three trace cuts. It matches the images posted in the link and works with an 11/73 ot 11/83. But yes, it should be that simple. There is a sharpied H on my card, which it is not the way DEC marked these boards. The available field maintenance prints refer to this (no G).? I don't know what the change was. ?? Jerry From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 24 19:16:41 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 01:16:41 +0000 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: I believe I describe this. There is a nylon clip that holds the guide rail for the head assembly. This nylon was over stressed. Every machine that I've seen, the nylon had hardened and cracked. It allows the rail to float. What happens is that the rail lifts up. When ejecting the floppy the plastic cover catches on the head. One that is removing the disk is likely to assume that it is just the eject hanging a little and they pull the disk out. This rips the head from the mount, destroying the drive. I saw a Cat on ebay and asked the seller to pass on my email to the buyer, to tell him to not force the disk from the drive, because it would damage the head. I did not get to him soon enough. He had already damaged the head. He said he'd wish he'd read my message earlier. This is such a common failure that I continue to warn people about it as often as I can. I also did some repair for a fellow that used Cats in his business. I was only able to fix 2 of 5 drives. Luckily these had a head mount was just bent and not ripped off. The desired fix is to open the disk drive and replace the nylon piece with something to hold it in place. I used a piece of plastic but several use a small dab of JB Weld. There is little reason to ever remove the rail. The drive use is driven through a soldered on ribbon cable, unlike most such HD drives. Because of software, it requires the DriveReady signal. Most drives no longer have this. It can be created with the retriggerable oneshot, on an adapter cable. I hope that covers it. Disassembly of the drive is a little trick to get at the rail but anyone with some mechanical ability can do it. Do look at how the eject works before disassembling. Dwight ________________________________ From: Chris Hanson Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2021 3:13 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: personal history of personal computers On Jan 4, 2021, at 1:31 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. Although, it was generally not intended as a development machine, in its short life, several applications were developed. > It was primarily sold as a word processor ( quite powerful one at that ). It had Forth running under the word processor. One could do both assembly and other things once one understood how to access the Forth. > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. > It has a common problem that if you don't understand it will destroy the drive. What happens if it's not possible to talk to you? Can you write up just what the deal is with the drive, so that everyone can learn? -- Chris From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 24 19:19:46 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 01:19:46 +0000 Subject: personal history of personal computers In-Reply-To: References: <5ff131ba.1c69fb81.20166.3646SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <0e66a6da-74fa-7e59-d059-346f1f52fa2f@e-bbes.com> , , Message-ID: I believe Jack Rubin has taken pictures of his repair. He frequents this message board. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2021 5:16 PM To: Chris Hanson ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: personal history of personal computers I believe I describe this. There is a nylon clip that holds the guide rail for the head assembly. This nylon was over stressed. Every machine that I've seen, the nylon had hardened and cracked. It allows the rail to float. What happens is that the rail lifts up. When ejecting the floppy the plastic cover catches on the head. One that is removing the disk is likely to assume that it is just the eject hanging a little and they pull the disk out. This rips the head from the mount, destroying the drive. I saw a Cat on ebay and asked the seller to pass on my email to the buyer, to tell him to not force the disk from the drive, because it would damage the head. I did not get to him soon enough. He had already damaged the head. He said he'd wish he'd read my message earlier. This is such a common failure that I continue to warn people about it as often as I can. I also did some repair for a fellow that used Cats in his business. I was only able to fix 2 of 5 drives. Luckily these had a head mount was just bent and not ripped off. The desired fix is to open the disk drive and replace the nylon piece with something to hold it in place. I used a piece of plastic but several use a small dab of JB Weld. There is little reason to ever remove the rail. The drive use is driven through a soldered on ribbon cable, unlike most such HD drives. Because of software, it requires the DriveReady signal. Most drives no longer have this. It can be created with the retriggerable oneshot, on an adapter cable. I hope that covers it. Disassembly of the drive is a little trick to get at the rail but anyone with some mechanical ability can do it. Do look at how the eject works before disassembling. Dwight ________________________________ From: Chris Hanson Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2021 3:13 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: personal history of personal computers On Jan 4, 2021, at 1:31 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > There was a little known 68K machine. It was the Canon Cat. Although, it was generally not intended as a development machine, in its short life, several applications were developed. > It was primarily sold as a word processor ( quite powerful one at that ). It had Forth running under the word processor. One could do both assembly and other things once one understood how to access the Forth. > If you should ever get one, don't use the disk drive until you talk to me. > It has a common problem that if you don't understand it will destroy the drive. What happens if it's not possible to talk to you? Can you write up just what the deal is with the drive, so that everyone can learn? -- Chris From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 24 20:11:38 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 21:11:38 -0500 Subject: Modifying a RXV21 for an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <0e4d38de-e813-e4da-ea67-37ea59b96e49@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Ok. My guess is it throws off the cache on the 11/73 and above as it works in an 11/23 (which is soooooo slow!). I looked at the images, cut the traces, then soldered in two of the wires. Board did not work on either the 11/83 or the 11/23+ CPU. However when I looked closer I saw the tiny little wire down by the crystal and the Q bus fingers. Put that in, and the board now works on the 11/23+, will take the whole thing apart (again) and plug in the 11/83. Fortunately I have the pdp11/83 configured with a Q bus memory board (2-4mb) and a PMI memory board from an 11/84 placed in slot 2 (so the 11/83 will access it as Q Bus memory). Thus I could pull the 11/83 CPU in slot 1 and pop the 11/23+ in. Aside from the exceptionally slower speed and long boot times it works pretty well for testing. Still need to get a 11/83 compatible PMI board, but the 11/84 ones work as normal Q bus memory. Thanks! Now I can read some of these RX02 disks and image them. I'm guessing my BRU floppy that I generated with the RXV11 controller will not boot on this RXV21 controller so I'll have to re-make that. And so far it doesn't look like the disks made on that third party MXV21 controller are compatible with the RX02, should they be? Chris On 1/24/2021 7:41 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On 1/24/21 11:27 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> So I found an RXV21 board in the pile of stuff here and popped it into >> my 83. Crashes the system. It's an M8029 D board, and I see from this >> site that you have to add a few traces and cut a few others to make it >> work on an 11/73 or better. >> >> http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/ >> >> I'll pop in an 11/23+ CPU just to test it, but is it really just >> putting in two wires on the top of the board and cutting a total of >> three traces? Looks simple enough... >> >> C > > My M8029 stamped Rev F? has three jumpers and three trace cuts. It > matches the images posted in the link and works with an 11/73 ot 11/83. > But yes, it should be that simple. > > There is a sharpied H on my card, which it is not the way DEC marked > these boards. The available field maintenance prints refer to this (no > G).? I don't know what the change was. > > ?? Jerry From jsw at ieee.org Sun Jan 24 20:51:55 2021 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 20:51:55 -0600 Subject: Modifying a RXV21 for an 11/83 In-Reply-To: References: <0e4d38de-e813-e4da-ea67-37ea59b96e49@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <8b5e1647-0e04-f92b-7fb2-18aa8a3c3399@ieee.org> On 1/24/21 8:11 PM, Chris Zach wrote: > Ok. My guess is it throws off the cache on the 11/73 and above as it > works in an 11/23 (which is soooooo slow!). > > I looked at the images, cut the traces, then soldered in two of the > wires. Board did not work on either the 11/83 or the 11/23+ CPU. > However when I looked closer I saw the tiny little wire down by the > crystal and the Q bus fingers. Put that in, and the board now works on > the 11/23+, will take the whole thing apart (again) and plug in the > 11/83. > > Fortunately I have the pdp11/83 configured with a Q bus memory board > (2-4mb) and a PMI memory board from an 11/84 placed in slot 2 (so the > 11/83 will access it as Q Bus memory). Thus I could pull the 11/83 CPU > in slot 1 and pop the 11/23+ in. Aside from the exceptionally slower > speed and long boot times it works pretty well for testing. > > Still need to get a 11/83 compatible PMI board, but the 11/84 ones > work as normal Q bus memory. > > Thanks! Now I can read some of these RX02 disks and image them. I'm > guessing my BRU floppy that I generated with the RXV11 controller will > not boot on this RXV21 controller so I'll have to re-make that. And so > far it doesn't look like the disks made on that third party MXV21 > controller are compatible with the RX02, should they be? > > Chris > Congrats! Most of the third party controllers and drives are OS compatible with the RX01 + RX02 format, provided you stick with Single Sided media.? However, booting an OS with an RX01 controller handler (Interrupt driven) will not succeed with an RX02 controller (DMA) or vice-versa. The Double Sided media (RX03) make for interesting interchange stories. I've seen double sided single density floppies. There are also differences in how the controller vendors made disk handler modifications for RT11.?? Many of these controllers would allow you to perform a low level format, but only using vendor specific controller commands. ? The DEC RX02 will only change the funky media density. Remember that these are 18 bit controllers.?? Some operation systems can work around this limitation, at the expense of CPU cycles. ? Jerry From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 24 20:53:57 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 21:53:57 -0500 Subject: 50 free 8 inch floppies! Message-ID: <87e03e55-2f72-f9ff-ee7a-a71722caddbf@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, with the RX02 running I see that 50 of these disks from Solarex were formatted with the FD: driver which is probably the MXV21 controller. Since I don't have a 5.4 version of this driver and to be honest will not be putting the MXV11 controller online anytime soon I'm offering these disks for free. So if you need 50 disks with various versions of RT11 and god knows what data on them or 50 frisbees let me know and they're yours for the cost of shipping. I need to either pitch these things or give them away. Thanks! Chris From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 24 21:04:36 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:04:36 -0500 Subject: Modifying a RXV21 for an 11/83 In-Reply-To: <8b5e1647-0e04-f92b-7fb2-18aa8a3c3399@ieee.org> References: <0e4d38de-e813-e4da-ea67-37ea59b96e49@alembic.crystel.com> <8b5e1647-0e04-f92b-7fb2-18aa8a3c3399@ieee.org> Message-ID: <2b34e67a-762c-a1e5-05a9-fbdafc165bdc@alembic.crystel.com> > Most of the third party controllers and drives are OS compatible with > the RX01 + RX02 format, provided you stick with Single Sided media. > However, booting an OS with an RX01 controller handler (Interrupt > driven) will not succeed with an RX02 controller (DMA) or vice-versa. Ok, not a biggie, I can just VMR a new RX01 compatible disk with a DY: boot driver in RSX11M+. Really there are two reasons for the RX drive: Boot BRUSYS so I can backup/restore the system to TK50 tapes, and build disks for the PDT11/150. Well there is a third reason: I have here a box full of floppies that include a full install set of TSX11+. This is 5.1c with a full license. These are "double sided" in that there are two sector holes in each disk so you can flip them over and have the sector pulse light work. There is also SaturnBase, SaturnCalc, and SaturnGraph, 3.0 with a 3.0k upgrade/patch disk. Not sure if these exist elsewhere but I could make copies now with the pdp11gui and finally slurp them into images. Do these already exist in archives? Before putting these in I'd make sure to clean the heads and everything so they don't take any damage. > The Double Sided media (RX03) make for interesting interchange stories. > I've seen double sided single density floppies. There are also > differences in how the controller vendors made disk handler > modifications for RT11.?? Many of these controllers would allow you to > perform a low level format, but only using vendor specific controller > commands. ? The DEC RX02 will only change the funky media density. Yah. I think Solarex used the MXV21 controller from MTI and it seems to have its own unique format and an "FD:" driver. Which means I would be stuck with RT11 4.0 which kinda sucks so why not > > Remember that these are 18 bit controllers.?? Some operation systems can > work around this limitation, at the expense of CPU cycles. Indeed. It's pointless to use them with RSX11 unless as I said to do a boot disk for tape backup/recovery. But I started out on RX01's way back when so I do have a bit of a soft spot in my head for them.... CZ From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jan 25 00:10:47 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 06:10:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Needed=C2=A0_HP_918lx_computer=C2=A0_trim_bezel!a_?= =?UTF-8?Q?nice=C2=A0_one=C2=A0_appreciated=C2=A0_bit=C2=A0_one_needing?= =?UTF-8?Q?_painting=C2=A0_or=3F=C2=A0_better=C2=A0_than_none!Please?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=A0_advise_!Ed_Sharpe_Archivist=C2=A0_for_SMECC?= References: <1669318937.960252.1611555047330.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1669318937.960252.1611555047330@mail.yahoo.com> Needed? HP 918lx computer? trim bezel!?a nice? one? appreciated? bit? one needing painting? or?? better? than none!Please? advise !?Ed Sharpe Archivist? for SMECC? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jan 25 07:27:44 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:27:44 -0500 Subject: 50 free 8 inch floppies! In-Reply-To: <87e03e55-2f72-f9ff-ee7a-a71722caddbf@alembic.crystel.com> References: <87e03e55-2f72-f9ff-ee7a-a71722caddbf@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/21 9:53 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, with the RX02 running I see that 50 of these disks from Solarex were > formatted with the FD: driver which is probably the MXV21 controller. > Since I don't have a 5.4 version of this driver and to be honest will > not be putting the MXV11 controller online anytime soon I'm offering > these disks for free. > > So if you need 50 disks with various versions of RT11 and god knows what > data on them or 50 frisbees let me know and they're yours for the cost > of shipping. I need to either pitch these things or give them away. > > Thanks! > Chris Chris, If the haven't been taken yet I'm interested. Bill Gunshannon 508 Bidwell Hill Rd. Lake Ariel, PA 18436 Give me an amount and a PayPal and I'll send the money to you. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 25 09:34:58 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 07:34:58 -0800 Subject: Andromeda UDC-11 Message-ID: Does anyone still have one of these with the 50 pin drive splitter card and could take some pictures? I picked one up a while ago and just noticed a 20 pin part is missing at U91, probably a PAL :-( From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jan 25 11:22:02 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:22:02 -0600 Subject: Andromeda UDC-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <600EFE3A.6010106@pico-systems.com> On 01/25/2021 09:34 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone still have one of these with the 50 pin drive > splitter card and could take some pictures? > > I picked one up a while ago and just noticed a 20 pin part > is missing at U91, probably a PAL :-( > I think I gave it away, but might have a schematic of the adapter card. I will look tonight. As I recall, there were NO IC's on the adapter card. I could imagine a terminator, but those don't usually come as a 20-pin chip. Could it be two 10-pin SIP terminators? Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jan 25 12:10:16 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 13:10:16 -0500 Subject: Andromeda UDC-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/25/21 10:34 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone still have one of these with the 50 pin drive splitter card > and could take some pictures? > > I picked one up a while ago and just noticed a 20 pin part is missing at > U91, probably a PAL :-( What "drive splitter card" are you talking about? I have a UDC-11 and the "personality modules" for winchester drive and the floppy drive. They are buried somewhere as I haven't done any PDP-11 stuff in a while but I could probably dig them out with some work if needed. bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 12:42:36 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 10:42:36 -0800 Subject: Andromeda UDC-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:35 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone still have one of these with the 50 pin drive splitter card and could take some pictures? > > I picked one up a while ago and just noticed a 20 pin part is missing at U91, probably a PAL :-( https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/chrisq/Andromeda_Systems_-_DC11_Series_Brochure.pdf The board photo on the second page of that brochure shows U91 populated with an MMI PAL16R8. I have one of these DC11 boards somewhere that isn't in the last place I remember seeing it. I'll try to find it again if I can. It might be the WDC11 version, which does RL01/RL02 RX02 emulation instead of the UDC11 version which does MSCP emulation. I assume the WDC11 would have different N8X305N microcode and different CSR decode PALs than the UDC11 version. Even if I find my DC11 board and can extract the fuse map for the U91 PAL it might not be what you need for a UDC11 board. In any case, it would still be good to archive the contents of any of the programmable parts if possible. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 12:43:21 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 19:43:21 +0100 Subject: 50 free 8 inch floppies! In-Reply-To: <87e03e55-2f72-f9ff-ee7a-a71722caddbf@alembic.crystel.com> References: <87e03e55-2f72-f9ff-ee7a-a71722caddbf@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 at 03:54, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > I'm offering > these disks for free. > > So if you need 50 disks with various versions of RT11 and god knows what > data on them or 50 frisbees let me know and they're yours for the cost > of shipping. I need to either pitch these things or give them away. Do you need disk boxes for them? A friend of mine in Brno has multiple 8" disk boxes -- the sturdy plastic type. Czech post is fairly cheap. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 25 13:05:38 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:05:38 -0800 Subject: Andromeda UDC-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/25/21 10:42 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > In any case, it would still be > good to archive the contents of any of the programmable parts if > possible. > Yes that was the plan for mine as well. I've been going through and finding all of my QBus disk controllers to try to take pictures and dump firmware. They'll be trickling up to bitsavers as I do that. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jan 25 19:46:21 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 20:46:21 -0500 Subject: DDCMP sync? Message-ID: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> In playing with DECnet I built a DDCMP implementation which deals with a byte stream, normally from a UART. So that works nicely with async link DDCMP as found in RSX and several other operating systems. But the speed is limited. The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable connections to DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous comm devices that connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, though I have seen a few. After playing with Arduino for LK201 keyboard emulation I started to wonder if one could be made to be a synchronous comm link with a USB back end, with low level things like byte framing and maybe DDCMP packet format handling in there, but the protocol state machine in the host behind the USB interface. For moderate speeds that seems entirely practical. For 1 Mb/s, probably not, though perhaps one of the fast ARM based units with its built-in SPI could be warped into that. The alternative would be something like a BeagleBone Black (or Green) such as David Gesswein used as the engine for his MFM hard disk emulator. That clearly could do the job without any strain. So I'm wondering: would there be interest in such a thing? If yes, should it be a modem-connected one (RS232 signaling, bit clock supplied externally by a modem or modem-eliminator)? Or should it be the "integral modem" short distance type, the ones that used a pair of coax with 4-pin AMP connectors like this https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/206060-1/15588 ? paul From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 20:26:28 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 21:26:28 -0500 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> Message-ID: Usually, we referred to the synchronous chip as a USynrt chip, a play on UART, DMC can run 1.544 Mb/s, or full T1. DUP or DU11 were good to upto 56K. Bisync, ADCCP, HDLC, DDCMP, BDLC were all options back in 77 but... Yes, they are slow. I had a hard time trying to explain th the Signetics design engineer who was tasked to copy my line unit design into silicone that it had to run at least T1. New grad, no practical experience yet, finally had to pull - I am the customer, I am paying for this, if you cant do this, I will have you replaced. He stuck with the project and at the end, said, ah now I understand. just some background. USB is much more useful now a days. bb On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 8:46 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > In playing with DECnet I built a DDCMP implementation which deals with a byte stream, normally from a UART. So that works nicely with async link DDCMP as found in RSX and several other operating systems. But the speed is limited. > > The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable connections to DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous comm devices that connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, though I have seen a few. > > After playing with Arduino for LK201 keyboard emulation I started to wonder if one could be made to be a synchronous comm link with a USB back end, with low level things like byte framing and maybe DDCMP packet format handling in there, but the protocol state machine in the host behind the USB interface. For moderate speeds that seems entirely practical. For 1 Mb/s, probably not, though perhaps one of the fast ARM based units with its built-in SPI could be warped into that. > > The alternative would be something like a BeagleBone Black (or Green) such as David Gesswein used as the engine for his MFM hard disk emulator. That clearly could do the job without any strain. > > So I'm wondering: would there be interest in such a thing? If yes, should it be a modem-connected one (RS232 signaling, bit clock supplied externally by a modem or modem-eliminator)? Or should it be the "integral modem" short distance type, the ones that used a pair of coax with 4-pin AMP connectors like this https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/206060-1/15588 ? > > paul > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 22:13:06 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 23:13:06 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC Message-ID: I do not know this guy, this came through my site, but if you do have info that you think he might find useful and would like to share please contact CECIL the Specific. VintageComputer.net Inquiry Contact Information Name: CECIL CRAIN Email: ccrain at rgoldlegal-got-com Phone: 4157869527 ------------------------- Comments: I'm looking for any information about Bakelite insulating materials and phenolic resins used in Univac DCT products manufactured in the Salt Lake City facility from 1970 to 1978. VintageComputer.net --------------------------------------------------------------- Bill From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 00:02:09 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 07:02:09 +0100 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> Message-ID: I did a thing called SyncDongle.( https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/tree/master/hardware/SyncDongle) Essentially a BluePill with some level converters. It is using the SPI port for sync communication. Then I developed a BSC implementation and a HDLC implementation to use on the SyncDongle. https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/tree/master/Utils/BSCGateway/BSCBridge https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/tree/master/Utils/SDLCBridge BSCBridge is more finished and works quite well to communicate between a USB host (Hercules) and a BSC terminal controller. SDLCbridge is working but is unfinished but tested fine with some simple SDLC messages to a terminal so the low level stuff seemed to work. https://youtu.be/H1Sxt7xjn4Y https://youtu.be/CFfB3yCN9OI Not sure if 1 mbit/s is possible with the SyncDongle hardware. But it might be. /Mattis Den tis 26 jan. 2021 kl 02:46 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > In playing with DECnet I built a DDCMP implementation which deals with a > byte stream, normally from a UART. So that works nicely with async link > DDCMP as found in RSX and several other operating systems. But the speed > is limited. > > The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable > connections to DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous > comm devices that connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, > though I have seen a few. > > After playing with Arduino for LK201 keyboard emulation I started to > wonder if one could be made to be a synchronous comm link with a USB back > end, with low level things like byte framing and maybe DDCMP packet format > handling in there, but the protocol state machine in the host behind the > USB interface. For moderate speeds that seems entirely practical. For 1 > Mb/s, probably not, though perhaps one of the fast ARM based units with its > built-in SPI could be warped into that. > > The alternative would be something like a BeagleBone Black (or Green) such > as David Gesswein used as the engine for his MFM hard disk emulator. That > clearly could do the job without any strain. > > So I'm wondering: would there be interest in such a thing? If yes, should > it be a modem-connected one (RS232 signaling, bit clock supplied externally > by a modem or modem-eliminator)? Or should it be the "integral modem" > short distance type, the ones that used a pair of coax with 4-pin AMP > connectors like this > https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/206060-1/15588 > ? > > paul > > From roll at stupi.com Mon Jan 25 19:54:22 2021 From: roll at stupi.com (Peter Lothberg) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 20:54:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HECnet] DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1159997854.19314.1611626062253.JavaMail.zimbra@stupi.com> If you want to go reasonable fast, most common is v.35 and rs422, data and clock are the same differential signals but status signals are different. Most (old fashion out of date) T1/E1 CSU/DSU's have v.35.. Thanks for your great job with the PY router! --P ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Koning" > To: "hecnet" , cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 8:46:21 PM > Subject: [HECnet] DDCMP sync? > In playing with DECnet I built a DDCMP implementation which deals with a byte > stream, normally from a UART. So that works nicely with async link DDCMP as > found in RSX and several other operating systems. But the speed is limited. > > The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable connections to > DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous comm devices that > connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, though I have seen a few. > > After playing with Arduino for LK201 keyboard emulation I started to wonder if > one could be made to be a synchronous comm link with a USB back end, with low > level things like byte framing and maybe DDCMP packet format handling in there, > but the protocol state machine in the host behind the USB interface. For > moderate speeds that seems entirely practical. For 1 Mb/s, probably not, > though perhaps one of the fast ARM based units with its built-in SPI could be > warped into that. > > The alternative would be something like a BeagleBone Black (or Green) such as > David Gesswein used as the engine for his MFM hard disk emulator. That clearly > could do the job without any strain. > > So I'm wondering: would there be interest in such a thing? If yes, should it be > a modem-connected one (RS232 signaling, bit clock supplied externally by a > modem or modem-eliminator)? Or should it be the "integral modem" short > distance type, the ones that used a pair of coax with 4-pin AMP connectors like > this > https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/206060-1/15588 > ? > > paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 26 11:04:35 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 17:04:35 +0000 (WET) Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01RUUBX9TLM48ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> > > The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable connections > to DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous comm devices > that connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, though I have seen > a few. > Not what would be called modern these days but I managed to run across two MicroVAX 3100 machines with DST32/DHT32 synchronous serial interfaces in them plus two V.24 and one each of V.35 and X.21 cables that will plug into them. With some help from the people here, I managed to get the machines talking to each other using a null modem between the two V.24 cables. I also have two nearly identical syncronous modems, one with a V.35 interface and another with an X.21 interface but I have not managed to get these to talk to each other, probably because they can't be configured to match any of the speeds the DST32/DHT32 interfaces can do. One of the MicroVAXes has since died (again) and I haven't got around to looking at it yet to see what is wrong this time. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jan 26 12:24:13 2021 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 18:24:13 +0000 (WET) Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: <01RUUBX9TLM48ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> I wrote: > >> >> The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable connections >> to DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous comm devices >> that connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, though I have seen >> a few. >> > > Not what would be called modern these days but I managed to run across two > MicroVAX 3100 machines with DST32/DHT32 synchronous serial interfaces in them > plus two V.24 and one each of V.35 and X.21 cables that will plug into them. > With some help from the people here, I managed to get the machines talking to > each other using a null modem between the two V.24 cables. I also have two > nearly identical syncronous modems, one with a V.35 interface and another with > an X.21 interface but I have not managed to get these to talk to each other, > probably because they can't be configured to match any of the speeds the > DST32/DHT32 interfaces can do. > Forget I said anything. the DST32/DHT32 won't do anything like 1 Mb/s. Why do you want to go so fast? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jan 26 12:51:38 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 18:51:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for HP marketing posters, in English and other world laguages large systems like HP-3000 as well as HP-150 and other pc and workstations... urgent need for monarch butterfly HP-150 poster!!! Will be part of smecc museum hp display. - Thanks Ed# References: <279549216.326464.1611687098587.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <279549216.326464.1611687098587@mail.yahoo.com> Looking for HP marketing posters, in English and other world laguages large systems like HP-3000 as well as HP-150 and other pc and workstations...?? urgent need for monarch butterfly HP-150 poster!!!? Will be part of smecc museum hp display. -? Thanks Ed# From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 26 13:00:34 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:00:34 -0500 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > On Jan 26, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > I wrote: >> >>> >>> The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable connections >>> to DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous comm devices >>> that connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, though I have seen >>> a few. >>> >> >> Not what would be called modern these days but I managed to run across two >> MicroVAX 3100 machines with DST32/DHT32 synchronous serial interfaces in them >> plus two V.24 and one each of V.35 and X.21 cables that will plug into them. >> With some help from the people here, I managed to get the machines talking to >> each other using a null modem between the two V.24 cables. I also have two >> nearly identical syncronous modems, one with a V.35 interface and another with >> an X.21 interface but I have not managed to get these to talk to each other, >> probably because they can't be configured to match any of the speeds the >> DST32/DHT32 interfaces can do. >> > > Forget I said anything. the DST32/DHT32 won't do anything like 1 Mb/s. > Why do you want to go so fast? 1 Mb/s is the top speed of the DMC with the coax local "integral modem" connection. I don't know if the real modem card could go that fast. Probably not; the top speed requires special microcode. But the DMR, with a faster engine, can do 1 Mb/s without trouble. I suspect that if you take the modem flavor of the DMR and manage to clock those signals at 1 MHz you can indeed send that fast. Of course, RS232 officially isn't rated anywhere near that high (9600 I think is the official limit). Other physical links like V.35 or RS422 were used at the time to go faster. In every case, you can usually get away with going well over the limit if the cables are short enough, and especially if the cables are better quality than the minimum. For example, the DMC/DMR local connection is specified to use triax, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cat 5 Ethernet twisted pair cable works just as well. The main question for new work is what people have out there to connect to. The only thing I have is a Pro. That has a comm port with a USART, which will do sync just fine but tops out at 9600 bps or so due to having a tiny FIFO. That's RS232. I have no DMC or DMR or anything else fast in my collection. Thanks for the pointer to the Z85C30. Nice chip but it costs more than an Arduino (!); I was thinking of a software-only solution if possible. Mattis, thanks! That's an implementation along the lines I was thinking. If yours can get close to 1 Mb/s, chances are one could get all the way there with the Arduino Itsy Bitsy M4, that's a 120 MHz ARM chip (Cortex M4). It has USB built-in. I'll study your code; that approach of using a fast loop for consistent reliable timing matches what I was thinking. DDCMP is a bit harder because it's normally full duplex. The framing is different but no harder, I think. And I was thinking of leaving the protocol state machine to the host, so the microcontroller would only do framing -- deliver completed good frames to the host without interpretation. paul From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 13:35:18 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 20:35:18 +0100 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hello Paul, > > Mattis, thanks! That's an implementation along the lines I was thinking. > If yours can get close to 1 Mb/s, chances are one could get all the way > there with the Arduino Itsy Bitsy M4, that's a 120 MHz ARM chip (Cortex > M4). It has USB built-in. I'll study your code; that approach of using a > fast loop for consistent reliable timing matches what I was thinking. > > Actually the STM32F103 has built-in USB so there is no difference there, really. > DDCMP is a bit harder because it's normally full duplex. I think the code should handle full-duplex, but I have not really tested it. At least Tx and Rx is separate flows in the software. > The framing is different but no harder, I think. And I was thinking of > leaving the protocol state machine to the host, so the microcontroller > would only do framing -- deliver completed good frames to the host without > interpretation. > I made a very quick check on DDCMP. It looks a bit like BSC but using a byte counter rather than various characters to end the frame. That would probably simplify the software. It seems to use SYN SYN which is identical to BSC so that part of the code that takes care of framing could probably be used directly. There are also the small STM32F411 Weact boards out there ( https://github.com/WeActTC/MiniF4-STM32F4x1). 100 MHz and the ART accelerator. From other projects where I have used the STM32F103 have seen that it executes slower than I expected since it was reading code from flash. The ART accelerator should help here to achieve near zero wait state so perhaps 1 Mbit/s would be possible? I made the design of the board so that it should work with the Weact board as well. But never got around testing it, mainly because the stm32duino hasn't support for them. But converting to the more official STM32 Arduino core would probably not be that hard. If you have further questions feel free to ask. Would be nice to add DDCMP support as well! Then perhaps I could try those M8203 / M8207 boards I have sitting here. /Mattis > > paul > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jan 26 15:39:19 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 16:39:19 -0500 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <53710604-5E5B-47EC-8DCA-F93E26AD2B5B@comcast.net> > On Jan 26, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Hello Paul, > > ... > >> The framing is different but no harder, I think. And I was thinking of leaving the protocol state machine to the host, so the microcontroller would only do framing -- deliver completed good frames to the host without interpretation. >> > I made a very quick check on DDCMP. It looks a bit like BSC but using a byte counter rather than various characters to end the frame. That would probably simplify the software. It seems to use SYN SYN which is identical to BSC so that part of the code that takes care of framing could probably be used directly. Yes, though the sync byte has a different value, the fact that it's called SYN is a bit misleading if you're used to the SYN used in BISYNC. > There are also the small STM32F411 Weact boards out there (https://github.com/WeActTC/MiniF4-STM32F4x1). 100 MHz and the ART accelerator. From other projects where I have used the STM32F103 have seen that it executes slower than I expected since it was reading code from flash. The ART accelerator should help here to achieve near zero wait state so perhaps 1 Mbit/s would be possible? What is an ART? I looked a bit at that Weact thing but got lost in the fulminating about "pirated" copies. Seriously? Open source designs are meant to be copied; "pirated" is a nonsensical term. Low quality copies, that would be a valid complaint. (The use of leaded solder, all things equal, increases quality rather than reducing it, by the way.) The ARM chips used in the Adafruit boards I've used have on-chip flash so I'd assume that runs quickly, but I'll have to try to find out. > ... > If you have further questions feel free to ask. Would be nice to add DDCMP support as well! Then perhaps I could try those M8203 / M8207 boards I have sitting here. Thanks, will keep that in mind. What sort of connection and signaling do your DMR boards use? paul From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Tue Jan 26 16:44:06 2021 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 22:44:06 +0000 Subject: Want To Buy: HP 9817 Monitor and Keyboard Message-ID: I have an HP 9817 and 9133D disk drive that I am trying to get going. The 9817 has a 98204B composite video card. I can mess with the settings of a composite monitor enough to barely read the text on the screen, which indicates that the machine is trying to boot from device A. I tried to make an image of the hard drive in the 9133D using Dave's MFM emulator, but the drive is pretty much toast and I wasn't able to recover much from it. If I connect the drive to the computer, it fails to boot and goes into BASIC. I do not have a compatible HP monitor or HIL keyboard to use with the machine. I was planning on building a PS2 to HIL converter, but having an actual keyboard would be far easier. Likewise, having a monitor would be easier than abusing a normal composite display into working. It looks like there were a bunch of compatible monitors back in the day. The 35721 and 35731B are mentioned on the HP Museum website. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Jan 26 17:16:53 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:16:53 -0400 Subject: Want To Buy: HP 9817 Monitor and Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <554ce2e3-a349-2e7c-64b0-29421f9922f9@gmail.com> On 2021-01-26 6:44 p.m., TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > I have an HP 9817 and 9133D disk drive that I am trying to get going. The 9817 has a 98204B composite video card. I can mess with the settings of a composite monitor enough to barely read the text on the screen, which indicates that the machine is trying to boot from device A. I tried to make an image of the hard drive in the 9133D using Dave's MFM emulator, but the drive is pretty much toast and I wasn't able to recover much from it. If I connect the drive to the computer, it fails to boot and goes into BASIC. > > I do not have a compatible HP monitor or HIL keyboard to use with the machine. I was planning on building a PS2 to HIL converter, but having an actual keyboard would be far easier. Likewise, having a monitor would be easier than abusing a normal composite display into working. > > It looks like there were a bunch of compatible monitors back in the day. The 35721 and 35731B are mentioned on the HP Museum website. I have a 35731A that is the 110V North American version that I could part with for a reasonable offer, however it is quite large and shipping outside of North America would probably be very expensive, not to mention the 110V 60Hz power requirement. Paul. From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Tue Jan 26 14:39:14 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:39:14 -0600 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <31470ca2-3e9a-5ca8-2120-54da6853e9f5@figureeightbrewing.com> Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF 15pin and 6pin) Molex or other? Are they still commonly available? --tnx --tom From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 02:05:36 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 09:05:36 +0100 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <31470ca2-3e9a-5ca8-2120-54da6853e9f5@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <31470ca2-3e9a-5ca8-2120-54da6853e9f5@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: Den ons 27 jan. 2021 kl 06:59 skrev Tom Uban via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF 15pin > and 6pin) Molex or other? > Are they still commonly available? > They are called Commercial Mate-n-lok. Company is called TE-Connectivity nowadays. Later on DEC used Universal Mate-n-lok. For example in the VAX-11/750. /Mattis > --tnx > --tom > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 03:05:07 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 10:05:07 +0100 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: <53710604-5E5B-47EC-8DCA-F93E26AD2B5B@comcast.net> References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> <53710604-5E5B-47EC-8DCA-F93E26AD2B5B@comcast.net> Message-ID: Den tis 26 jan. 2021 kl 22:39 skrev Paul Koning : > > > > On Jan 26, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > > > Hello Paul, > > > > ... > > > >> The framing is different but no harder, I think. And I was thinking of > leaving the protocol state machine to the host, so the microcontroller > would only do framing -- deliver completed good frames to the host without > interpretation. > >> > > I made a very quick check on DDCMP. It looks a bit like BSC but using a > byte counter rather than various characters to end the frame. That would > probably simplify the software. It seems to use SYN SYN which is identical > to BSC so that part of the code that takes care of framing could probably > be used directly. > > Yes, though the sync byte has a different value, the fact that it's called > SYN is a bit misleading if you're used to the SYN used in BISYNC. > Right. That should be quite simple. A #define and then in the SyncFSM.cpp this line need to be changed: "if (((dataWord >> i) & 0xffff) == 0x4c4c) {" 0x4C is the SYN byte (0x32) in reverse bit order. > There are also the small STM32F411 Weact boards out there ( > https://github.com/WeActTC/MiniF4-STM32F4x1). 100 MHz and the ART > accelerator. From other projects where I have used the STM32F103 have seen > that it executes slower than I expected since it was reading code from > flash. The ART accelerator should help here to achieve near zero wait state > so perhaps 1 Mbit/s would be possible? > > What is an ART? ART is a ST term for some kind of cache mechanism that allows the processor to run at near zero wait state. Normal INTERNAL flash accesses have wait states. Flash is slower than RAM even when on chip. As far as I understand this ART feature is not available on the STM32F103. Which means that all flash-accesses will have two wait states when running at 72 MHz. I just discovered this when trying to optimize the inner loop of the SCSI handshake in my fork of ArdSCSIno ( https://github.com/MattisLind/ArdSCSino-stm32). The 30 instructions that were to be executed took much longer than I expected. Looking at the Microchip ATSAMD51 of the ItsyBitsy board it seems that it has a TCM (Tightly Coupled Memory) that can be used as a cache similar to the ART function. > I looked a bit at that Weact thing but got lost in the fulminating about > "pirated" copies. Seriously? Open source designs are meant to be copied; > "pirated" is a nonsensical term. Low quality copies, that would be a valid > complaint. (The use of leaded solder, all things equal, increases quality > rather than reducing it, by the way.) > I really don't think that WeAct say that it is "Open Source". Do you see a license saying it is Open Source? My focus is on the chip on the board not the manufacturer. The WeAct board is almost pin compatible with the STM32F103 blue pill board while having an STM32F4 chip (which has more of everything compared to the STM32F1). So I decided to use only pins that had exactly the same function on both Blue Pill and WeAct boards so that one could change to the WeAct board without redesigning my board. > > The ARM chips used in the Adafruit boards I've used have on-chip flash so > I'd assume that runs quickly, but I'll have to try to find out. > No, It also has wait states. But the TCM can be used as a cache as far as I can see from a quick check. I am by no means an expert on this. I just had a quick look right now. ( https://github.com/adafruit/ArduinoCore-samd/issues/37) All ST ARM chips have on-chip Flash as well, no difference there really. But flash is inherently slower. . > > > ... > > If you have further questions feel free to ask. Would be nice to add > DDCMP support as well! Then perhaps I could try those M8203 / M8207 boards > I have sitting here. > > Thanks, will keep that in mind. What sort of connection and signaling do > your DMR boards use? > Not really sure. http://forum.datormuseum.se/item/6E7AA955-997A-4568-B181-843BD5AC1321.html http://forum.datormuseum.se/item/33D8D630-0CDD-4D92-A148-06F88644BA17.html I don't have DEC connector kits to go from 40 pin BERG to something else. /Mattis > > paul > > From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jan 27 09:19:47 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 09:19:47 -0600 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <31470ca2-3e9a-5ca8-2120-54da6853e9f5@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: Thanks much. I think I found the mating plugs I need on the te.com site and digikey has them. --tom On 1/27/21 2:05 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Den ons 27 jan. 2021 kl 06:59 skrev Tom Uban via cctalk >: > > Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF 15pin and 6pin) Molex or > other? > Are they still commonly available? > > > They are called Commercial Mate-n-lok.? Company is called TE-Connectivity nowadays. > > Later on DEC used Universal Mate-n-lok. For example in the VAX-11/750. > > /Mattis > > > --tnx > --tom > From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 27 10:57:26 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 08:57:26 -0800 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <31470ca2-3e9a-5ca8-2120-54da6853e9f5@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: Could you post the part numbers? Thanks. TTFN - Guy On 1/27/21 7:19 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > Thanks much. I think I found the mating plugs I need on the te.com site and digikey has them. > > --tom > > On 1/27/21 2:05 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> Den ons 27 jan. 2021 kl 06:59 skrev Tom Uban via cctalk > >: >> >> Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF 15pin and 6pin) Molex or >> other? >> Are they still commonly available? >> >> >> They are called Commercial Mate-n-lok.? Company is called TE-Connectivity nowadays. >> >> Later on DEC used Universal Mate-n-lok. For example in the VAX-11/750. >> >> /Mattis >> >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> -- TTFN - Guy From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jan 27 11:13:27 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 11:13:27 -0600 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20201231204848.5913D18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <31470ca2-3e9a-5ca8-2120-54da6853e9f5@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <86b8f3be-1a11-cf27-5b8d-409e96a6cac6@figureeightbrewing.com> Well, they vary for what you may need of course, but in my case, I wanted to connect to existing DD11-DF female shell/male pin 15 and 6 contact connectors. Searching the te.com site, there are some similar parts, but the ones which look correct are: Commercial MATE-N-LOK-S, 1-171196-0 (digikey A106239-ND), 6-pin CMNL PLUG HSG P/M NATL, 1-480323-0 (digikey A1427-ND), 15-pin There are a number of pin options for these, but I picked: 170121-1 (digikey A122316-ND), tin, 14-20 AWG Once the parts arrive, I will confirm if I chose wisely... --tom On 1/27/21 10:57 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Could you post the part numbers? > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > > On 1/27/21 7:19 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> Thanks much. I think I found the mating plugs I need on the te.com site and digikey has them. >> >> --tom >> >> On 1/27/21 2:05 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>> Den ons 27 jan. 2021 kl 06:59 skrev Tom Uban via cctalk >> >: >>> >>> ???? Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF 15pin and 6pin) Molex or >>> ???? other? >>> ???? Are they still commonly available? >>> >>> >>> They are called Commercial Mate-n-lok.? Company is called TE-Connectivity nowadays. >>> >>> Later on DEC used Universal Mate-n-lok. For example in the VAX-11/750. >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >>> >>> ???? --tnx >>> ???? --tom >>> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 27 11:51:48 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 12:51:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC backplane power connectors Message-ID: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF > 15pin and 6pin) Molex or other? > Are they still commonly available? https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors#Connectors I'm not sure why I bothered to write all this stuff up; it was clearly a waste of time. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jan 27 12:40:13 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 10:40:13 -0800 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <409BBAE2-C32E-467C-8150-55D2854F14DB@fritzm.org> > https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors#Connectors Very useful page; thanks Noel! > I'm not sure why I bothered to write all this stuff up; it was clearly a waste > of time. Arguably (?) not, if you consider cctalk to be the "search engine" that links people there :-) --FritzM. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jan 27 12:48:14 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 13:48:14 -0500 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> <53710604-5E5B-47EC-8DCA-F93E26AD2B5B@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jan 27, 2021, at 4:05 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > Den tis 26 jan. 2021 kl 22:39 skrev Paul Koning : > > ... >> I looked a bit at that Weact thing but got lost in the fulminating about "pirated" copies. Seriously? Open source designs are meant to be copied; "pirated" is a nonsensical term. Low quality copies, that would be a valid complaint. (The use of leaded solder, all things equal, increases quality rather than reducing it, by the way.) > > I really don't think that WeAct say that it is "Open Source". Do you see a license saying it is Open Source? No, I just spent a while looking and I didn't see one. Very strange. The whole Arduino thing is all about open source, so it's bizarre to see an Arduino spinoff that isn't open. It's permitted, since the Arduino license isn't GPL, but it's surprising. I can't see much reason to do business with a closed Arduino clone purveyor when good open ones are readily available from Adafruit and many others. > ... >> The ARM chips used in the Adafruit boards I've used have on-chip flash so I'd assume that runs quickly, but I'll have to try to find out. > No, It also has wait states. But the TCM can be used as a cache as far as I can see from a quick check. I am by no means an expert on this. I just had a quick look right now. (https://github.com/adafruit/ArduinoCore-samd/issues/37) Thanks, I'll check that out, it may be needed. > > ... > > If you have further questions feel free to ask. Would be nice to add DDCMP support as well! Then perhaps I could try those M8203 / M8207 boards I have sitting here. > > Thanks, will keep that in mind. What sort of connection and signaling do your DMR boards use? > >> Not really sure. >> >> http://forum.datormuseum.se/item/6E7AA955-997A-4568-B181-843BD5AC1321.html >> http://forum.datormuseum.se/item/33D8D630-0CDD-4D92-A148-06F88644BA17.html >> >> I don't have DEC connector kits to go from 40 pin BERG to something else. Ok, that suggests one possible answer for a DDCMP USB board would be "40 pin BERG connector" as opposed to a modem connector or AMP coax connector. paul From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Wed Jan 27 13:00:03 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 13:00:03 -0600 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <681d7b54-54ab-d28b-39ea-08e1d3b7d466@figureeightbrewing.com> I wish I had seen it before I ordered. I may have gotten the wrong 6pin shell. --tom On 1/27/21 11:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF > > 15pin and 6pin) Molex or other? > > Are they still commonly available? > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors#Connectors > > I'm not sure why I bothered to write all this stuff up; it was clearly a waste > of time. > > Noel From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 13:08:07 2021 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:08:07 -0500 Subject: DDCMP sync? In-Reply-To: References: <6B57FFD2-69EE-4AF2-9328-1BA941C2A9C2@comcast.net> <01RUUE99IONS8ZGJOV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Actually, DMC and DQ11 both had V35 options and both would hit 1.5 (1.3 actual due to protocol overhead. The DP8/e supported v.35 also, but I don't recall how fast I could get that to go. I had bell 301 and 303 modems in the lab in the mill, running back to back. THere are some arcane bits in the synchronous line units that were used with the KMC for autodin II V.35 and RS422, thanks to some guys at Univ of Mancheter. they helped me with a chip (along with Nat Semi) that replaced the transistors and bits on the DP8/e for V.35 aka current mode operations. bb On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 2:00 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > On Jan 26, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > I wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> The other option would be synchronous links, which would enable connections > >>> to DMC11 or the like at speeds up to 1 Mb/s. But synchronous comm devices > >>> that connect to modern computers aren't so easy to find, though I have seen > >>> a few. > >>> > >> > >> Not what would be called modern these days but I managed to run across two > >> MicroVAX 3100 machines with DST32/DHT32 synchronous serial interfaces in them > >> plus two V.24 and one each of V.35 and X.21 cables that will plug into them. > >> With some help from the people here, I managed to get the machines talking to > >> each other using a null modem between the two V.24 cables. I also have two > >> nearly identical syncronous modems, one with a V.35 interface and another with > >> an X.21 interface but I have not managed to get these to talk to each other, > >> probably because they can't be configured to match any of the speeds the > >> DST32/DHT32 interfaces can do. > >> > > > > Forget I said anything. the DST32/DHT32 won't do anything like 1 Mb/s. > > Why do you want to go so fast? > > 1 Mb/s is the top speed of the DMC with the coax local "integral modem" connection. I don't know if the real modem card could go that fast. Probably not; the top speed requires special microcode. But the DMR, with a faster engine, can do 1 Mb/s without trouble. I suspect that if you take the modem flavor of the DMR and manage to clock those signals at 1 MHz you can indeed send that fast. Of course, RS232 officially isn't rated anywhere near that high (9600 I think is the official limit). Other physical links like V.35 or RS422 were used at the time to go faster. In every case, you can usually get away with going well over the limit if the cables are short enough, and especially if the cables are better quality than the minimum. For example, the DMC/DMR local connection is specified to use triax, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cat 5 Ethernet twisted pair cable works just as well. > > The main question for new work is what people have out there to connect to. The only thing I have is a Pro. That has a comm port with a USART, which will do sync just fine but tops out at 9600 bps or so due to having a tiny FIFO. That's RS232. I have no DMC or DMR or anything else fast in my collection. > > Thanks for the pointer to the Z85C30. Nice chip but it costs more than an Arduino (!); I was thinking of a software-only solution if possible. > > Mattis, thanks! That's an implementation along the lines I was thinking. If yours can get close to 1 Mb/s, chances are one could get all the way there with the Arduino Itsy Bitsy M4, that's a 120 MHz ARM chip (Cortex M4). It has USB built-in. I'll study your code; that approach of using a fast loop for consistent reliable timing matches what I was thinking. > > DDCMP is a bit harder because it's normally full duplex. The framing is different but no harder, I think. And I was thinking of leaving the protocol state machine to the host, so the microcontroller would only do framing -- deliver completed good frames to the host without interpretation. > > paul > > From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Wed Jan 27 13:31:05 2021 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:31:05 +0000 Subject: Want To Buy: HP 9817 Monitor and Keyboard In-Reply-To: <554ce2e3-a349-2e7c-64b0-29421f9922f9@gmail.com> References: <554ce2e3-a349-2e7c-64b0-29421f9922f9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm in the US, near the East coast. Does $150 sound fair? ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:16 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I have a 35731A that is the 110V North American version that I could > part with for a reasonable offer, however it is quite large and shipping > outside of North America would probably be very expensive, not to > mention the 110V 60Hz power requirement. > > Paul. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Jan 27 13:46:54 2021 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 13:46:54 -0600 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4a9dbb74-c7e1-7141-fec0-6dcc5f5c04a9@vaxen.net> Not at all a waste. I have that page bookmarked. Doc On 1/27/21 11:51, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Are the power connectors on the DEC PDP-11 backplanes (e.g. DD11-DF > > 15pin and 6pin) Molex or other? > > Are they still commonly available? > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors#Connectors > > I'm not sure why I bothered to write all this stuff up; it was clearly a waste > of time. > > Noel From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 13:56:21 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 15:56:21 -0400 Subject: Want To Buy: HP 9817 Monitor and Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <554ce2e3-a349-2e7c-64b0-29421f9922f9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01f4e157-9e8e-dc5a-9d1f-65c0d59d9d8c@gmail.com> Hi, Sure $150 plus shipping would work for me sounds fine to me, I am in Halifax on the east coast of Canada, if you provide me with a shipping address I can get you an estimate on shipping. Paul. On 2021-01-27 3:31 p.m., TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > I'm in the US, near the East coast. Does $150 sound fair? > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:16 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> I have a 35731A that is the 110V North American version that I could >> part with for a reasonable offer, however it is quite large and shipping >> outside of North America would probably be very expensive, not to >> mention the 110V 60Hz power requirement. >> >> Paul. > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 27 17:03:16 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 18:03:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC backplane power connectors Message-ID: <20210127230316.8697918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I may have gotten the wrong 6pin shell. I have this very vague memory of some similar connector shell, but I have no memory of what the difference is. I just checked the shells I have here, and they definitely fit onto the power harness on an -11/40; and the numbers on the Web page are correct. If yours arrives, and it works, please send me the number and I'll add it to the page. Actually, if it _doesn't_ work, send me the number, and I'll add a 'no not use xxx, it doesn't work' note. Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 02:29:45 2021 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 00:29:45 -0800 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have had this guy harassing the Computer History Museum, then all unsuspecting restorers under the false pretense of doing computer materials history research. In the end we understood he was trying to find out if asbestos was used in the machinery or buildings that were used to make the IBM 1401. We believe he is trying to find a sleazy way to sue all the computer makers that have made computers in the past. When it became clear what he was doing, we told him to stop harassing us and contact the CHM legal people. Never heard of him again. Marc > On Jan 25, 2021, at 8:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > ?I do not know this guy, this came through my site, but if you do have info > that you think he might find useful and would like to share please contact > CECIL the Specific. > > VintageComputer.net Inquiry Contact Information Name: CECIL CRAIN > Email: ccrain at rgoldlegal-got-com Phone: 4157869527 > ------------------------- Comments: > I'm looking for any information about Bakelite insulating > materials and phenolic resins used in Univac DCT products manufactured > in the Salt Lake City facility from 1970 to 1978. > VintageComputer.net > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Bill From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu Jan 28 07:36:56 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:36:56 -0600 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20210127230316.8697918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210127230316.8697918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have a feeling there are two shell designs for the 6 pin. The one on my DD11-DF that I want to mate has detents in the corners while the catalog picture for the 6 pin on your part number shows a square in the center of the side. I'm pretty sure I've seen that style 6 pin on some of my other DEC equipment, so I wouldn't say that either shell is wrong just yet. Once I have the ones I ordered in hand, I will let you know what I learn. Either way, your site has very useful information and I am happy to be able to help add to it one way or another. Best, --tom On 1/27/21 5:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > I may have gotten the wrong 6pin shell. > > I have this very vague memory of some similar connector shell, but I have no > memory of what the difference is. > > I just checked the shells I have here, and they definitely fit onto the power > harness on an -11/40; and the numbers on the Web page are correct. > > If yours arrives, and it works, please send me the number and I'll add it to > the page. Actually, if it _doesn't_ work, send me the number, and I'll add a > 'no not use xxx, it doesn't work' note. > > Noel From coreyvcf at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 08:19:18 2021 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 09:19:18 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> I?m actually surprised that it took this long before the ?sharks? started to circle our historical objects looking for things like asbestos, arsenic, radium and other ?poisons? used in the making these machines. Cheers, Corey From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jan 28 09:52:44 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 09:52:44 -0600 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6012DDCC.2060801@pico-systems.com> On 01/28/2021 02:29 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > We have had this guy harassing the Computer History Museum, then all unsuspecting restorers under the false pretense of doing computer materials history research. In the end we understood he was trying to find out if asbestos was used in the machinery or buildings that were used to make the IBM 1401. We believe he is trying to find a sleazy way to sue all the computer makers that have made computers in the past. Wow! I doubt there is an asbestos in the actual computer parts, but quite possible asbestos-containing floor tiles and pipe insulation WAS used in the factory buildings, or computer rooms where they were used. Suing the manufacturers for something that was general practice 60 years ago seems a far stretch. And, other than IBM, all the other computer makers are long gone. Some may have been absorbed into other corporations, of course. Getting legal, what would be his standing for such a suit? If he wants a class action, he has to find somebody that was harmed, and then track down others and/or heirs. Well, some people just need to find real work, like digging ditches or driving trucks. Jon From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 28 12:38:38 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 10:38:38 -0800 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: <6012DDCC.2060801@pico-systems.com> References: <6012DDCC.2060801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2021-01-28 at 09:52 -0600, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/28/2021 02:29 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > We have had this guy harassing the Computer History Museum, then all unsuspecting restorers under the false pretense of doing computer materials history research. In the end we understood he was trying to find out if asbestos was used in the machinery or buildings that were used to make the IBM 1401. We believe he is trying to find a sleazy way to sue all the computer makers that have made computers in the past. > Wow! I doubt there is an asbestos in the actual computer > parts, but quite possible asbestos-containing floor tiles > and pipe insulation WAS used in the factory buildings, or > computer rooms where they were used. > > Suing the manufacturers for something that was general > practice 60 years ago seems a far stretch. And, other than > IBM, all the other computer makers are long gone. Some may > have been absorbed into other corporations, of course. > Getting legal, what would be his standing for such a suit? > If he wants a class action, he has to find somebody that was > harmed, and then track down others and/or heirs. It wasn't just "general practice" sixty years ago. It was mandated by building codes. > Well, some people just need to find real work, like digging > ditches or driving trucks. > > Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 28 13:39:04 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:39:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC backplane power connectors Message-ID: <20210128193904.B9E9C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I have a feeling there are two shell designs for the 6 pin. Like I said, I have a vague memory of another keying design (I think it used a ridge running parallel to the direction of insertion), but I don't think it's from any DEC gear. There is definitely yet _another_ keying design, with triangular sawteeth, but again, I don't think any DEC gear used that. > The one on my DD11-DF that I want to mate has detents in the corners > while the catalog picture for the 6 pin on your part number shows a > square in the center of the side. Yes, the ones on the DD11-[C,D] (female shell, male pins) have 2 filled-in corners, and the ones on the harness into which they plug (male shell, female pins) have both the cutout corners (to match the filled-in corners on the female shells), _and_ "a square in the center of the side". As I said, I had verified that my female shells plugged into the male shells on an -11/40 harness; I just went and checked, those males have the exact identical shape to the ones I got (with the listed part number), including both cutout corners and the square in the center of the side. (Oddly enough, the 15-pin male shells used in that generation of DEC power connectors do not have the square in the center of the side, just the cutout corners.) Noel From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 28 14:08:11 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 12:08:11 -0800 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: <6012DDCC.2060801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1ff2122c-2025-bb5f-97a4-96041696489d@sydex.com> Most of these actions aren't lawsuits per se, but rather claims made on trust funds set up by asbestos manufacturers as part of Chapter 7 bankruptcy filings. So the money's already there and if one has been afflicted by mesothelioma and can claim *any* exposure to asbestos in the past, the fund usually pays out a million or two to the claimant and his lawyer. Not quite ambulance-chasing, but close. Late night TV is full of ads for this sort of thing. A similar thing is going on for Roundup herbicide and non-Hodgkins lymphoma from a fund set up by Montsanto, whose patent on glyphosate herbicide has long since run out. Glyphosate is still widely used in agriculture. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 15:35:24 2021 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:35:24 -0500 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20210128193904.B9E9C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210128193904.B9E9C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 2:39 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > There is definitely yet _another_ keying design, with > triangular sawteeth, but again, I don't think any DEC gear used that. I am familiar with that key design. I have never seen it in DEC gear. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 28 16:00:09 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:00:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> References: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > I?m actually surprised that it took this long before the ?sharks? > started to circle our historical objects looking for things like > asbestos, arsenic, radium and other ?poisons? used in the making > these machines. I'm sure that they have already filmed TV commercials, "If you or a loved one was vaccinated for Covid-19 and have . . . " From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 28 16:00:05 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:00:05 -0800 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20210128193904.B9E9C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2cb6aa09-4853-f3ab-daaa-e9181e62812d@bitsavers.org> >> There is definitely yet _another_ keying design, with >> triangular sawteeth Molex From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jan 28 16:05:38 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:05:38 -0800 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <2cb6aa09-4853-f3ab-daaa-e9181e62812d@bitsavers.org> References: <20210128193904.B9E9C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2cb6aa09-4853-f3ab-daaa-e9181e62812d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5CFB427E-B7E5-40FB-A5C7-F74585237209@fritzm.org> >>> There is definitely yet _another_ keying design, with >>> triangular sawteeth > > Molex Yup. You'll find them on harnesses in your Atari arcade cabinets :-) From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 20:07:01 2021 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 19:07:01 -0700 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 10:51 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors#Connectors > I'm not sure why I bothered to write all this stuff up; it was clearly a > waste > of time. > I've used that writeup before. Thank you! From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jan 29 06:10:49 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:10:49 +0100 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 07:43:13PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: [...] > APL was difficult for those used to traditional programming languages, not > primarily because of the character set, but because it's basically a > vector/matrix programming language. It is *also* the use of symbols. Firstly, some people are just symbol-blind and prefer stuff spelled out in words. It's just how brains are wired. Secondly, beyond BODMAS, the meaning and precedence of random symbols is unclear to casual readers. Calls to named functions tend to be more descriptive -- "map" and "filter" mean the same sort of thing across functional(-inspired) languages -- and the precedence is obvious thanks to the parentheses. At a guess, part of the reason APL does this is so that the programmer pre-tokenises the input to make it easier for the language to process. Sinclair BASIC did this too, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. It may have even been inspired to do this by APL given the manual says Sinclair BASIC was written by a "Cambridge mathematician". The "modern" vector/matrix programming language most commonly used by contemporary programmers use is probably SQL. It's amazing how many people use it inefficiently as a key-value store when it's really a matrix-transformation language even though it *looks* like an imperative language. The 1970s has a lot to answer for. > It's a different world from BASIC, for sure. Yes, well, a lot of BASIC programmers have even more fundamental problems with understanding important programming concepts, such as recursion and pointers/references. Without those, a lot of important algorithms cannot be implemented, or even understood. > Neil maintained that its strength lay in thinking about things in a > non-scalar way. I'll give him that--programming on STAR, where a scalar > was treated by the hardware as a vector of length 1 (and thus very slow > because of startup overhead) certainly led you toward thinking about > things in vector operations, just like APL. Modern x86-64 (and ARM etc) also (finally!) has useful vector instructions. Unfortunately, the popular languages do not make their use terribly simple, and mostly rely on compilers recognising idiomatic loop patterns over scalars and transforming them. This works about as well as you might expect. From gavin at learn.bio Fri Jan 29 06:27:18 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 06:27:18 -0600 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 6:11 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Secondly, beyond BODMAS, the meaning and precedence of random symbols is > unclear to casual readers. An issue that plagues other operator-rich languages, but not APL since APL follows a strict right-to-left evaluation order for ALL operators (no BODMAS in sight). You can use parentheses to affect it, but it's not as hard to figure out a complex APL expression as one might naively expect at first glance. The symbols did greatly limit the growth of APL in its early years just because it made the cost of entry higher so not as many people were exposed to it, and it also suffered the related "small proprietary language" issue that has plagued pretty much every language whose developers tried to get rich off the language itself. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:18:43 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:18:43 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/28/21 3:29 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > We have had this guy harassing the Computer History Museum, then all unsuspecting restorers under the false pretense of doing computer materials history research. In the end we understood he was trying to find out if asbestos was used in the machinery or buildings that were used to make the IBM 1401. We believe he is trying to find a sleazy way to sue all the computer makers that have made computers in the past. When it became clear what he was doing, we told him to stop harassing us and contact the CHM legal people. Never heard of him again. > Marc > >> On Jan 25, 2021, at 8:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?I do not know this guy, this came through my site, but if you do have info >> that you think he might find useful and would like to share please contact >> CECIL the Specific. >> >> VintageComputer.net Inquiry Contact Information Name: CECIL CRAIN >> Email: ccrain at rgoldlegal-got-com Phone: 4157869527 >> ------------------------- Comments: >> I'm looking for any information about Bakelite insulating >> materials and phenolic resins used in Univac DCT products manufactured >> in the Salt Lake City facility from 1970 to 1978. >> VintageComputer.net >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> > First thought that came to my mind when I read this was "ambulance chaser". I guess all the crap on TV has made me quite the cynic. Saw one the other day about getting Meso from using talc, Only if your snorting it!! :-) bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:20:23 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:20:23 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> References: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/28/21 9:19 AM, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > I?m actually surprised that it took this long before the ?sharks? started to circle our historical objects looking for things like asbestos, arsenic, radium and other ?poisons? used in the making these machines. > Ah yes, radium. You'll get my original R-390/URR meters when you pry them from my cold, dead, glowing hands. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:22:03 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:22:03 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: <6012DDCC.2060801@pico-systems.com> References: <6012DDCC.2060801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 1/28/21 10:52 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/28/2021 02:29 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: >> We have had this guy harassing the Computer History Museum, then all >> unsuspecting restorers under the false pretense of doing computer >> materials history research. In the end we understood he was trying to >> find out if asbestos was used in the machinery or buildings that were >> used to make the IBM 1401. We believe he is trying to find a sleazy >> way to sue all the computer makers that have made computers in the past. > Wow!? I doubt there is an asbestos in the actual computer parts, but > quite possible asbestos-containing floor tiles and pipe insulation WAS > used in the factory buildings, or computer rooms where they were used. > > Suing the manufacturers for something that was general practice 60 years > ago seems a far stretch.? And, other than IBM, all the other computer > makers are long gone.? Some may have been absorbed into other > corporations, of course. Getting legal, what would be his standing for > such a suit? > If he wants a class action, he has to find somebody that was harmed, and > then track down others and/or heirs. > > Well, some people just need to find real work, like digging ditches or > driving trucks. > Sorry, those tasks take way more intelligence than you are likely to find in a lawyer. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:25:07 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:25:07 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: <1ff2122c-2025-bb5f-97a4-96041696489d@sydex.com> References: <6012DDCC.2060801@pico-systems.com> <1ff2122c-2025-bb5f-97a4-96041696489d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/28/21 3:08 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Most of these actions aren't lawsuits per se, but rather claims made on > trust funds set up by asbestos manufacturers as part of Chapter 7 > bankruptcy filings. So the money's already there and if one has been > afflicted by mesothelioma and can claim *any* exposure to asbestos in > the past, the fund usually pays out a million or two to the claimant and > his lawyer. Not quite ambulance-chasing, but close. Late night TV is > full of ads for this sort of thing. > > A similar thing is going on for Roundup herbicide and non-Hodgkins > lymphoma from a fund set up by Montsanto, whose patent on glyphosate > herbicide has long since run out. Glyphosate is still widely used in > agriculture. > I use it all the time. And in a much stronger potency than what you find in Roundup. Make you wonder, if it really is so bad, why is it still legal? But then, look at tobacco. Won't even let you sue for that. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:27:23 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:27:23 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/28/21 5:00 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2021, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: >> I?m actually surprised that it took this long before the ?sharks? >> started to circle our historical objects looking for things like >> asbestos, arsenic, radium and other ?poisons? used in the making these >> machines. > > I'm sure that they have already filmed TV commercials, "If you or a > loved one was vaccinated for Covid-19 and have . . . " Sadly, they fought for and were granted immunity before the first COVID vaccine was released. Thus the reason I am not lining up to get one even though, effective yesterday, I am on the top of the list. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 29 08:27:23 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:27:23 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 29, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 6:11 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk > wrote: >> Secondly, beyond BODMAS, the meaning and precedence of random symbols is >> unclear to casual readers. > > An issue that plagues other operator-rich languages, but not APL since > APL follows a strict right-to-left evaluation order for ALL operators > (no BODMAS in sight). You can use parentheses to affect it, but it's > not as hard to figure out a complex APL expression as one might > naively expect at first glance. True, although right to left is not a natural way to read mathematical formulas. The reason APL uses right to left is that the designers apparently were unwilling to change the direction of the assignment operator, so everything else had to follow. Another language that doesn't have precedence avoided this issue by changing assignment to match the others, i.e., everything is left to right. That is POP-2, a language out of the U of Edinborough I remember from an AI class. So it would do stuff like: a + 1 * 5 -> b which in C would be b = (a + 1) * 5; and is definitely easier to read than the APL equivalent. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 08:32:08 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:32:08 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 7:27 AM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 6:11 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk > wrote: >> Secondly, beyond BODMAS, the meaning and precedence of random symbols is >> unclear to casual readers. > > An issue that plagues other operator-rich languages, but not APL since > APL follows a strict right-to-left evaluation order for ALL operators > (no BODMAS in sight). You can use parentheses to affect it, but it's > not as hard to figure out a complex APL expression as one might > naively expect at first glance. > > The symbols did greatly limit the growth of APL in its early years > just because it made the cost of entry higher so not as many people > were exposed to it, and it also suffered the related "small > proprietary language" issue that has plagued pretty much every > language whose developers tried to get rich off the language itself. > Curiously, in the very early 80's, it was the language of choice for teaching computers at Marist College. My understanding of the symbols was that they are quite explanatory to a mathematician. While I don't have them in my head as most of the APL's I used worked on ASCII terminals using Di-graphs and Tri-graphs, I can still understand and even write APL. It's fun to play with every once in a while. bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jan 29 08:56:33 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:56:33 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Anti-vax stuff Do me a favor: Mail it to me. This vaccine FUD is crap, is not based in science or reality, and has to stop. Sorry to post this on a classic forum, but this bullshit needs to end now. Bill, I sent out the box of 8 inch floppies yesterday. CZ From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 09:06:17 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:06:17 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 9:56 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Anti-vax stuff > > Do me a favor: Mail it to me. This vaccine FUD is crap, is not based in > science or reality, and has to stop. > > Sorry to post this on a classic forum, but this bullshit needs to end now. > > Bill, I sent out the box of 8 inch floppies yesterday. > > CZ Thanks Chris, give me a paypal and I will send you the money. Sorry for the delay. I had a rather bad incident over the weekend. bill From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 09:19:35 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:19:35 +0100 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 at 13:11, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > It is *also* the use of symbols. Firstly, some people are just symbol-blind > and prefer stuff spelled out in words. It's just how brains are wired. Agreed. I submit this is also why some people find Lisp (and perhaps Forth and Postscript) straightforward, while to others it remains ineffable. > It may > have even been inspired to do this by APL given the manual says Sinclair > BASIC was written by a "Cambridge mathematician". Specifically, this one, I believe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Vickers_(computer_scientist) > Yes, well, a lot of BASIC programmers have even more fundamental problems > with understanding important programming concepts, such as recursion Good BASICs had that. > and > pointers/references. ... Fair. :-( > Modern x86-64 (and ARM etc) also (finally!) has useful vector instructions. > Unfortunately, the popular languages do not make their use terribly simple, > and mostly rely on compilers recognising idiomatic loop patterns over > scalars and transforming them. This works about as well as you might expect. Very interesting paper, IMHO: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479 ? C Is Not a Low-level Language Your computer is not a fast PDP-11. ? It does imply the question, though, as to what a high-level language designed for multithreaded partly-parallel CPUs with SIMD extensions would look like, and whether this kind of logic is easily expressed for people who do not have an APL sort of mind... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 09:22:16 2021 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:22:16 +0100 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: <5668D521-07FD-447E-A2AE-17003713F6C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 at 15:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Ah yes, radium. You'll get my original R-390/URR meters when you pry > them from my cold, dead, glowing hands. Relevant (& from a list member): "My vintage vacuum tubes are radio-active!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYSWIdDcbGU -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 09:51:13 2021 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:51:13 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have learned that Bakelite insulating is phenol and formaldehyde with embedded asbestos. Does anyone have any Bakelite insulation in any of their vintage computers? On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 11:13 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > I do not know this guy, this came through my site, but if you do have info > that you think he might find useful and would like to share please contact > CECIL the Specific. > > VintageComputer.net Inquiry Contact Information Name: CECIL CRAIN > Email: ccrain at rgoldlegal-got-com Phone: 4157869527 ------------------------- Comments: > I'm looking for any information about Bakelite insulating materials and phenolic resins used in Univac DCT products manufactured in the Salt Lake City facility from 1970 to 1978. VintageComputer.net --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Bill > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 29 10:30:04 2021 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:30:04 +0000 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/01/2021 15:51, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have learned that Bakelite insulating is phenol and formaldehyde with > embedded asbestos. Does anyone have any Bakelite insulation in any of > their vintage computers? *Some* Bakelite contains asbestos. The primary filler is commonly wood flour. I worked with the Estates' asbestos team at a university and we found that a lot of Bakelite does not contain any asbestos. The trouble is, you can't tell without proper analysis. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 11:12:29 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:12:29 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> On 1/29/21 6:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > True, although right to left is not a natural way to read mathematical formulas. The reason APL uses right to left is that the designers apparently were unwilling to change the direction of the assignment operator, so everything else had to follow. Another language that doesn't have precedence avoided this issue by changing assignment to match the others, i.e., everything is left to right. That is POP-2, a language out of the U of Edinborough I remember from an AI class. So it would do stuff like: > > a + 1 * 5 -> b > > which in C would be > > b = (a + 1) * 5; > > and is definitely easier to read than the APL equivalent. Well, part of the confusion lies in the difference of "=" in mathematics indicating a property or state, as opposed to computer languages using it as an operator. It's a subtle distinction, but important. D = 4AC in mathematics establishes a property of D, whereas D = 4*A*C in BASIC, etc. means "multiply 4 by A, then take that result and multiply it by the value of C and store the result into D. APL treats the assignment as what it is--an operation. Why the RTL of APL was chosen by Iverson, is a mystery; I agree. He was, as far as I know, not native writer of Hebrew. I suppose we should be grateful that he didn't specify APL as a boustrophedon. We already have Forth. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 11:19:35 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:19:35 -0800 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/29/21 8:30 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 29/01/2021 15:51, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> I have learned that Bakelite insulating is phenol and formaldehyde with >> embedded asbestos.? Does anyone have any Bakelite insulation in any of >> their vintage computers? > > *Some* Bakelite contains asbestos.? The primary filler is commonly wood > flour.? I worked with the Estates' asbestos team at a university and we > found that a lot of Bakelite does not contain any asbestos.? The trouble > is, you can't tell without proper analysis. I suspect that any danger from asbestos-reinforced Bakelite in computers is very minimal, as the stuff usually isn't machined to any extent and isn't used as a friction surface. I doubt that a Bakelite lamp socket, switch body or terminal strip, for example sheds much of the fiber during its normal operating life. Unlike, for example, automotive brake linings. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 11:29:52 2021 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 18:29:52 +0100 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20210127175148.323B418C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have found this catalogue useful to browse when trying to find the appropriate housings and pins. https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=82181_SOFT_SHELL_CATALOG&DocType=CS&DocLang=EN It covers both the commercial Mate-n-lok used in the PDP-11 and universal Mate-n-lok used in the VAX-11/750 (and others as far as I know) Den fre 29 jan. 2021 kl 03:07 skrev Eric Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 10:51 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors#Connectors > > I'm not sure why I bothered to write all this stuff up; it was clearly a > > waste > > of time. > > > > I've used that writeup before. Thank you! > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 29 12:34:15 2021 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 18:34:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1059297701.211647.1611945255873@mail.yahoo.com> On Friday, January 29, 2021, 10:19:54 AM EST, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 at 13:11, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> >> It is *also* the use of symbols. Firstly, some people are just symbol-blind >> and prefer stuff spelled out in words. It's just how brains are wired. > > Agreed. I submit this is also why some people find Lisp (and perhaps > Forth and Postscript) straightforward, while to others it remains ineffable. This reminds me of something I once heard Grace Hopper say.? Now this won't be an exact quote since I'm relying on some rather old memory.? As I remember it, she said: "There are basically two kinds of people in the world. The first is those of use who are Mathematicians at heart.? We want to take all the words and turn them into symbols.? Everyone else wants to take all the symbols and turn them into words.? COBOL is for them." BLS From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 12:47:20 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:47:20 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/29/21 11:30 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 29/01/2021 15:51, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> I have learned that Bakelite insulating is phenol and formaldehyde with >> embedded asbestos.? Does anyone have any Bakelite insulation in any of >> their vintage computers? > > *Some* Bakelite contains asbestos.? The primary filler is commonly wood > flour.? I worked with the Estates' asbestos team at a university and we > found that a lot of Bakelite does not contain any asbestos.? The trouble > is, you can't tell without proper analysis. > Lots of bakelite around my house. Old radios, old Computers, but I was not planning on grinding any of it down and snorting it this week. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jan 29 13:07:54 2021 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:07:54 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6B737D18-5F3E-470F-8299-CD473FE2EEB6@comcast.net> > On Jan 29, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/29/21 6:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> True, although right to left is not a natural way to read mathematical formulas. The reason APL uses right to left is that the designers apparently were unwilling to change the direction of the assignment operator, so everything else had to follow. Another language that doesn't have precedence avoided this issue by changing assignment to match the others, i.e., everything is left to right. That is POP-2, a language out of the U of Edinborough I remember from an AI class. So it would do stuff like: >> >> a + 1 * 5 -> b >> >> which in C would be >> >> b = (a + 1) * 5; >> >> and is definitely easier to read than the APL equivalent. > > Well, part of the confusion lies in the difference of "=" in mathematics > indicating a property or state, as opposed to computer languages using > it as an operator. It's a subtle distinction, but important. > > D = 4AC in mathematics establishes a property of D, whereas > D = 4*A*C in BASIC, etc. means "multiply 4 by A, then take that result > and multiply it by the value of C and store the result into D. > > APL treats the assignment as what it is--an operation. Why the RTL of > APL was chosen by Iverson, is a mystery; I agree. He was, as far as I > know, not native writer of Hebrew. I suppose we should be grateful > that he didn't specify APL as a boustrophedon. You're correct about equality or identity vs. assignment, but that wasn't my point. I should have used ALGOL rather than C as the "other language" example to avoid introducing that angle. Yes, the right to left thing is really strange, since it requires changing the usual order of hundreds of operators to preserve the usual order of a single one, rather than serving the majority as POP-2 does. BTW, I don't really know Hebrew but doesn't it still write math LTR? I know they write numbers that way. paul From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jan 29 13:12:45 2021 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 20:12:45 +0100 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <0295022a-6ee6-e713-39fa-6ce87e72d0e0@gmail.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <20210115043555.GA4212@lonesome.com> <0295022a-6ee6-e713-39fa-6ce87e72d0e0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 11:21:11AM -0500, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: [...] > In 1999, a fellow student in a UML course worked for a large information > company (Reuters, I think?) and told me that they had embarked on an > expensive s/w conversion project. Their back-end systems were implemented > in APL and they could not find programmers -- even ones willing to learn > APL for pay. I'd have taken it if the price was right. Heck, I seem to have spent most of my career wading through fossilised Perl, so it's not as if I'd notice much difference. Companies moaning that they can't find staff inevitably turn out to be offering less than the going rate for what they're demanding and/or the company is toxic. Usually both. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 13:15:14 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 11:15:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: UNIVAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>> I have learned that Bakelite insulating is phenol and formaldehyde with >>> embedded asbestos.? Does anyone have any Bakelite insulation in any of >>> their vintage computers? I wonder whether it was the word "insulation" that triggered this ridiculous inquiry. To many people, "insulation" means the stuff that is blown into cavities in walls for thermal insulation. Asbestos used to be preferred, because it would also make the structure less flammable. (or is that "inflammable"?) It has/had a tendency to get airborne, and to contain asbestos. Breathing THAT can be a serious worry. The bakelite "insulation" is hard chunks of [usually] black plastic. It was one of, if not THE, first commercially available plastics. It has a very high electrical resistance, so is a good "insulator". Used to be used a lot for switch bodies, etc. To the best of my very limited knowledge, it is not powders, etc. blown into spaces. It is never airborne, unless you throw it at somebody. NOBODY gets it in their lungs from their computer; NOBODY gets lung cancer from it. (not counting workers in factories where they MANUFACTURED it) Cancer from asbestos is in the lungs. Asbestos, if NOT entered into the lungs, is harmless, and was quite common in old plumbing. Nobody gets cancer from drinking it. (cf. scare tactic used to close down Reserve Mining) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 13:20:11 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 11:20:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <6B737D18-5F3E-470F-8299-CD473FE2EEB6@comcast.net> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <6B737D18-5F3E-470F-8299-CD473FE2EEB6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > BTW, I don't really know Hebrew but doesn't it still write math LTR? I know they write numbers that way. CAREFUL. We don't need another BIG-endian/little-endian debate! (when a 16 bit number is stored in bytes, does the high order byte come first, or the low order byte?) (cf. intel V Motorola) From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Fri Jan 29 13:29:13 2021 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:29:13 -0600 Subject: DEC backplane power connectors In-Reply-To: <20210128193904.B9E9C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210128193904.B9E9C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7925918f-d81b-e9e4-467b-f3f44f91c2e1@figureeightbrewing.com> The connector shells I ordered arrived and fit my application properly. The part numbers are: ? Digikey A106239-ND, TE Connectivity AMP Connectors 1-171196-0, CONN PLUG 6POS MATE-N-LOK NATRL ? Digikey A1427-ND, TE Connectivity AMP Connectors 1-480323-0, CONN PLUG 15 POS MATE-N-LOK See attached picture or ASCII representation below: ???? +------------+ ???? |??????????? ++ ???? |? 0?? 0?? 0? | +-+? |???????????? |? +-+ | |? |? 0?? 0?? 0? |? | | +-+? |???????????? |? +-+ ???? |? 0?? 0?? 0? | ???? |??????????? ++ ???? +------------+ ???? +--------------------+ ???? |??????????????????? ++ ???? |? 0?? 0?? 0?? 0?? 0? | +-+? |???????????????????? |? +-+ | |? |? 0?? 0?? 0?? 0?? 0? |? | | +-+? |???????????????????? |? +-+ ???? |? 0?? 0?? 0?? 0?? 0? | ???? |??????????????????? ++ ???? +--------------------+ Looking at the TE.com catalog, the picture for 1-480273-0 does not match my DD11-DF connector, looking like this: ???? +------------+ ???? |??????????? | ???? |? 0?? 0?? 0 | +-+? |??????????? ++? +-+ | |? |? 0?? 0?? 0? |? | | +-+? |??????????? ++? +-+ ???? |? 0?? 0?? 0 | ???? |??????????? | ???? +------------+ Best, --tom On 1/28/21 1:39 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > I have a feeling there are two shell designs for the 6 pin. > > Like I said, I have a vague memory of another keying design (I think it used a > ridge running parallel to the direction of insertion), but I don't think it's > from any DEC gear. There is definitely yet _another_ keying design, with > triangular sawteeth, but again, I don't think any DEC gear used that. > > > The one on my DD11-DF that I want to mate has detents in the corners > > while the catalog picture for the 6 pin on your part number shows a > > square in the center of the side. > > Yes, the ones on the DD11-[C,D] (female shell, male pins) have 2 filled-in > corners, and the ones on the harness into which they plug (male shell, female > pins) have both the cutout corners (to match the filled-in corners on the > female shells), _and_ "a square in the center of the side". > > As I said, I had verified that my female shells plugged into the male shells > on an -11/40 harness; I just went and checked, those males have the exact > identical shape to the ones I got (with the listed part number), including > both cutout corners and the square in the center of the side. (Oddly enough, > the 15-pin male shells used in that generation of DEC power connectors do not > have the square in the center of the side, just the cutout corners.) > > Noel > From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 13:40:43 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:40:43 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <6B737D18-5F3E-470F-8299-CD473FE2EEB6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <601464BB.8010705@gmail.com> On 29/01/2021 14:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > We don't need another BIG-endian/little-endian debate! > (when a 16 bit number is stored in bytes, does the high order byte > come first, or the low order byte?) (cf. intel V Motorola) Amen to that (but did it not originate with DEC vs. IBM?) N. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 29 13:52:08 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:52:08 -0700 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/2021 8:19 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 at 13:11, Peter Corlett via cctalk > wrote: >> >> It is *also* the use of symbols. Firstly, some people are just symbol-blind >> and prefer stuff spelled out in words. It's just how brains are wired. > > Agreed. I submit this is also why some people find Lisp (and perhaps > Forth and Postscript) straightforward, while to others it remains > ineffable. Symbols I can live with. I can never remember them but that is not the point. ^\# is lot better than to say "invert matrix on diagonal". I like words because they tend to mean one thing, not like Icons that imply something but never tell you just what. In Car ~~ is that windshield wipers, flashing lights, or parking brake? GUI's are more a problem, they change every software revision. You can't use the online help, because you can't find where they moved it to in the menu, if can find the new menu. Still annoyed at ASCII removing the -> (arrow) to something else. you could write a+3 -> c leaving = for equal. Why they needed all those control characters defined, but nobody used them? Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 13:59:44 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 11:59:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Well, part of the confusion lies in the difference of "=" in mathematics > indicating a property or state, as opposed to computer languages using > it as an operator. It's a subtle distinction, but important. > > D = 4AC in mathematics establishes a property of D, whereas > D = 4*A*C in BASIC, etc. means "multiply 4 by A, then take that result > and multiply it by the value of C and store the result into D. > > APL treats the assignment as what it is--an operation. Why the RTL of > APL was chosen by Iverson, is a mystery; I agree. He was, as far as I > know, not native writer of Hebrew. I suppose we should be grateful > that he didn't specify APL as a boustrophedon. > > We already have Forth. Therein lies one of the largest problems for first exposure to programming. NO! We are NOT talking about "first exposure" as meaning a few years; we are talking about the first few DAYS (for most students, but up to weeks/months for some). By the time that you got HERE, you had forgotten what you struggled with on your first day(s). They have been brought up with enough math that they "understand" that X = 3 means that X has a value of 3. But why not 3 = X ? As Chuck said, it is the fundamental difference between equality (property) and assignment (operation). To a programming language, 3 = X is a request to take the current value of X, and assign that as the NEW value of the "constant" 3. And the compiler won't cooperate! Early versions of BASIC had a keyword "LET". LET X = 3 is devoid of most of the ambiguity, and LET 3 = X is much less likely to be attempted. 'Course, changing the values of constants opens up some strange possibilities! A few other languages have used other different symbols for assignment, to avoid the confusion of "equality" Without OTHER changes in parsing arithmetic expressions, that may or may not be warranted, just replacing the '=' being used for assignment with an arrow ELIMINATED that particular confusion. Well, mostly. You can't use a right pointing arrow to fix 3 = X I spent years introducing students to their first contact with computers. MY first was FORTRAN. My father handled the statistics for the "CBS National Driver's Test". IBM provided the computers, the port-a-punch cards for mail-in responses (printed with a box for where to put a stamp!), and the programming. One of the early percentages in the LIVE show didn't add up to 100! If you look over Walter Cronkite's shoulder, you can see my father frantically manually recalculating the numbers. The next morning, my father had the dining room table covered with manuals, and we started to try to learn FORTRAN. IIRC, over a short time, we settled on the books by McCracken and Decima Anderson. BTW, I consider BASIC to be very good for "FIRST EXPOSURE", IFF it is limited to that, and other languages are soon introduced. I don't agree with Dijkstra: "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." -Edsger Dijkstra It takes a substantial OVER-exposure to cause the damage. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 14:10:42 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <601464BB.8010705@gmail.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <6B737D18-5F3E-470F-8299-CD473FE2EEB6@comcast.net> <601464BB.8010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> We don't need another BIG-endian/little-endian debate! >> (when a 16 bit number is stored in bytes, does the high order byte come >> first, or the low order byte?) (cf. intel V Motorola) On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > Amen to that (but did it not originate with DEC vs. IBM?) Yes. I was talking about more recent. I don't know what other predecessors there were befor DEC V IBM. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 29 14:21:44 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:21:44 -0700 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/29/2021 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Without OTHER changes in parsing arithmetic expressions, that may or may > not be warranted, just replacing the '=' being used for assignment with > an arrow ELIMINATED that particular confusion.? Well, mostly.? You can't > use a right pointing arrow to fix 3 = X > Blame K&R with C with the '=' and '==' mess because assignment is a operation. I never hear that C or PASCAL have problems. I find the pseudo code often less confusing than real languages. the one I like best uses indentation for structure. while k do .if foo then ..do this thing ..do that thing .else ..something here .!end if ! end while > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 29 14:36:01 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:36:01 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7d42fcf5-5394-c3a1-eb2c-12bab86f864a@shiresoft.com> On 1/29/21 12:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/2021 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> >> Without OTHER changes in parsing arithmetic expressions, that may or >> may not be warranted, just replacing the '=' being used for >> assignment with an arrow ELIMINATED that particular confusion.? Well, >> mostly.? You can't use a right pointing arrow to fix 3 = X >> > > Blame K&R with C with the '=' and '==' mess because assignment is a > operation. I never hear that C or PASCAL have problems. We complained bitterly about this in the early days (Unix v6 days).? They at least listened and fixed the = (e.g. =+, =-) because of ambiguity but refused to change assignment.? I find it annoying that a type-o of forgetting an '=' in a comparison can result in a hard to find bug. TTFN - Guy From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 29 14:41:48 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:41:48 -0800 Subject: Half-height SCSI enclosure References: Message-ID: In case you need a half-height SCSI enclosure to add to your VAX etc, I put one up on EBay. Item ID: 224332273248 https://www.ebay.com/itm/224332273248 Van Snyder From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 14:58:01 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:58:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> Without OTHER changes in parsing arithmetic expressions, that may or may >> not be warranted, just replacing the '=' being used for assignment with an >> arrow ELIMINATED that particular confusion.? Well, mostly.? You can't use >> a right pointing arrow to fix 3 = X On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, ben via cctalk wrote: > Blame K&R with C with the '=' and '==' mess because assignment is a > operation. I never hear that C or PASCAL have problems. I think that it was Ritchie and Thompson who created C; Kernighan and Ritchie documented it. '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and which the compiler doesn't catch: if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a WARNING for it. > I find the pseudo code often less confusing than real languages. > the one I like best uses indentation for structure. > while k do > .if foo then > ..do this thing > ..do that thing > .else > ..something here > .!end if > ! end while You COULD design a language around your favorite pseudo-code structures. I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. while (k) { if (foo) { ..do this thing ..do that thing } else { ..something here } } Even K and R did not agree on indentation styles. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 15:01:58 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:01:58 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3a8401b9-2bff-4335-a88d-09dc12d3d3c4@sydex.com> On 1/29/21 11:59 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Early versions of BASIC had a keyword "LET".??? LET X = 3?? is devoid of > most of the ambiguity, and LET 3 = X is much less likely to be > attempted. 'Course, changing the values of constants opens up some > strange possibilities! SUBROUTINE FOO(X) INTEGER X X=15 RETURN END ... CALL FOO(10) Lots of fun, there. --Chuck From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Jan 29 15:12:16 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:12:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> > On 01/29/2021 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and > which the compiler doesn't catch: > if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ > I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a > WARNING for it. > Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. There's a pretty good chance the heat pump you're using right now has those warnings. Alas... Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 15:12:55 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:12:55 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <601464BB.8010705@gmail.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <6B737D18-5F3E-470F-8299-CD473FE2EEB6@comcast.net> <601464BB.8010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cf81260-0d4c-8ade-97f5-5d8dfe31cca1@sydex.com> On 1/29/21 11:40 AM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > On 29/01/2021 14:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> We don't need another BIG-endian/little-endian debate! >> (when a 16 bit number is stored in bytes, does the high order byte >> come first, or the low order byte?)? (cf. intel V Motorola) > Amen to that (but did it not originate with DEC vs. IBM?) > > N. It was the result of sub-word addressable architecures. Most old (pre S/360) digit/character-addressable architectures were big-endian (i.e. higher-order characters occupied lower addresses) Even PDP-11 isn't strictly little-endian, though Intel X86 definitely is. Numbering of bits in a word is also interesting. Is the high order bit in a 64 bit word, bit 0 or bit 63? Both conventions have been employed. This really gets interesting on bit-addressable architectures. STAR for example, is bit addressable, but big-endian, with alignment of data dependent on the data type (e.g. bytes must have the lower 3 bits of their address as 000; halfwords as 00000 and so on. However, it's possible to extract any group of bits from a bit-addressed datum. --Chuck --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 15:14:29 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:14:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <3a8401b9-2bff-4335-a88d-09dc12d3d3c4@sydex.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <3a8401b9-2bff-4335-a88d-09dc12d3d3c4@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Early versions of BASIC had a keyword "LET".??? LET X = 3?? is devoid of >> most of the ambiguity, and LET 3 = X is much less likely to be >> attempted. 'Course, changing the values of constants opens up some >> strange possibilities! On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > SUBROUTINE FOO(X) > INTEGER X > X=15 > RETURN > END > ... > CALL FOO(10) > > Lots of fun, there. I said that LET made redefining constants LESS likely, just because it clarifies that it is an assignment to be done. There are other ways. Redefining constants permits fixing a number of things, such as 42 WHATDOYOUGETWHENYOUMULTIPLYSIXBYNINE From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 15:15:10 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:15:10 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <88c3a562-917d-2bcb-d643-92b1be706678@sydex.com> On 1/29/21 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Without OTHER changes in parsing arithmetic expressions, that may or > I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. > while (k) > {?? if (foo) > ??? {? ..do this thing > ?????? ..do that thing > ??? } > ??? else > ??? {? ..something here > ??? } > } > That's fine, but when you have a language that makes indentation part of the language (i.e. no braces, brackets or keywords denoting boundaries of the block) , there be monsters. And yes, there are such languages. --Chuck From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 15:25:45 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:25:45 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> On 01/29/21 15:58, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote (in part): > '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, > and which the compiler doesn't catch: > if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ > I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would > return a WARNING for it. Henry's first commandment: Thou shalt run lint frequently and study its pronouncements with care, for verily its perception and judgement oft exceed thine. N. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 16:08:26 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:08:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: >> '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and >> which the compiler doesn't catch: >> if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ >> I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a >> WARNING for it. On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: > Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I > believe. But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see > one more. Yet, '=' in a condition is not necessarily a fault. while (*T++ = *S++); /* is the guts of strcpy */ But, it can certainly still blow up in your face. If you want to insert a character at the beginning of a string pointed to by P1, P2 = P1 + 1; strcpy(P2,P1); /* What went wrong? :-) */ For beginners, it would be nice to use a "SANDBOX" C with runtime error checking. such that Z = X / Y ; would do a if (Y == 0) . . . Z = X / Y ; But, that would slow down stuff in the situations where it isn't needed. Y = 2; if (condition) Y = 3; Z = X / Y ; does NOT need that runtime error check. An assumption in C (whether or not it is a valid assumption) is that the programmer KNOWS where and what runtime checking is needed, and will manually add it in where needed. The problem, of course, is that they DON'T. > There's a pretty good chance the heat pump you're using right now has > those warnings. Alas... In some cases, it is possible to put in preprocessor directives to alert the compiler that you are aware of it, and to NOT generate the WARNING. Or, in many cases to modify the code, such as EXPLICIT typedefs to not generate warnings. int X = PI; /* should give a warning */ int x = (int)PI; /* should be OK, without a loss of efficiency */ It's scary that code gets shipped as soon as it "seems to be working", without confirming that ALL of the 260+ WARNINGS are deliberately over-ridden. From david at kdbarto.org Fri Jan 29 16:42:04 2021 From: david at kdbarto.org (David Barto) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:42:04 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 29, 2021, at 2:08 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: >> Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. > > In some cases, it is possible to put in preprocessor directives to alert the compiler that you are aware of it, and to NOT generate the WARNING. > Or, in many cases to modify the code, such as EXPLICIT typedefs to not generate warnings. > int X = PI; /* should give a warning */ > int x = (int)PI; /* should be OK, without a loss of efficiency */ > > > It's scary that code gets shipped as soon as it "seems to be working", without confirming that ALL of the 260+ WARNINGS are deliberately over-ridden. > Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even when everyone claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before that existed, I?d do the same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. And in every case, every single time I did this, for some reason the various ?mysterious crash? problems would go away. Every time. But it couldn?t be those warnings, they weren?t the problem. David From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 29 16:43:59 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:43:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ridiculous RL11's on eBait Message-ID: <20210129224359.B490318C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This seller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/303862645513 is _completely_ insane! ~$2400 for an RL11 board? Noel From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 29 16:55:25 2021 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:55:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Ridiculous RL11's on eBait In-Reply-To: <20210129224359.B490318C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210129224359.B490318C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2143879893.275103.1611960925422@mail.yahoo.com> On Friday, January 29, 2021, 5:44:05 PM EST, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This seller: > >? https://www.ebay.com/itm/303862645513 > > is _completely_ insane! ~$2400 for an RL11 board? But you get a discount if you order 2...? :) BLS From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jan 29 16:57:03 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:57:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10 prints on eBait Message-ID: <20210129225703.753E718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Did someone here buy these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265018225826 I was wondering if they'll be scanned. Noel From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Jan 29 17:06:33 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:06:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> > On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk wrote: > > Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even when everyone claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before that existed, I?d do the same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired for it. I left there very soon after. They are most likely still shipping units, but now it probably has more warnings. Sad. Will "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein From spc at conman.org Fri Jan 29 17:08:28 2021 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 18:08:28 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> References: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Will Cooke via cctalk once stated: > > > On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk wrote: > > > Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; > > all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even when everyone > > claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before that existed, I?d do the > > same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. > > That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired > for it. WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some manager upstream look bad or something? -spc From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Jan 29 17:18:19 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:18:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> References: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <1085273556.103366.1611962299481@email.ionos.com> > On 01/29/2021 5:08 PM Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > > > > WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some > manager upstream look bad or something? > > -spc Because the code was so fragile and "worked" that making the code "correct" was likely to break it. "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein From turing at shaw.ca Fri Jan 29 17:18:27 2021 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:18:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> References: <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <413989228.448347082.1611962307255.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> It happened to me as well - I found hundreds of warnings in the code and, after getting permission to address them, I was fired because 'we would have to recompile the Windows version due to the changes you made'; the source code was reverted to the state before I made the changes. I refuse to have their product on any system that I have involvement with... From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 3:08:28 PM Subject: Re: APL\360 It was thus said that the Great Will Cooke via cctalk once stated: > > > On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk wrote: > > > Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; > > all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even when everyone > > claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before that existed, I?d do the > > same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. > > That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired > for it. WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some manager upstream look bad or something? -spc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 29 17:20:45 2021 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:20:45 -0700 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 1/29/2021 1:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > You COULD design a language around your favorite pseudo-code structures I did that already, since I can not find a easy to port C compiler with structures, and a small memory footprint like 64Kb. I found LCC 3.x off a old CD rom archive, but I can't find the book at a low cost. Since the Architecture is still in flux, the compiler is rather rough. The C code for cross compiler is a simple subset with no structures making it easy to port when the time. comes to able to self host. I got rid most of all the annoying ;'s ,'s }'s {'s unary operands are a hack at the movement. control is just IF cond statements { EIF exp statements }* { ELSE statements } ENDIF WHILE cond statements REPEAT > > I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. > while (k) > {?? if (foo) > ??? {? ..do this thing > ?????? ..do that thing > ??? } > ??? else > ??? {? ..something here > ??? } > } > > Even K and R did not agree on indentation styles. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 17:29:33 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:29:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <1391920421.103096.1611961357149@email.ionos.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1391920421.103096.1611961357149@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: > Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable > -Werror; all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even > when everyone claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before > that existed, I?d do the same with lint, and FlexeLint when I > could get it. On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: > That's exactly what I did and was then told I was likely to get fired for > it. I left that job soon after. > "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert > Einstein Similarly, "You don't have time to write comments as you go along. You can go back and add them in AFTER the program is working." Of course, as soon as it "seems to be working", "We're not paying you to mess with stuff that's already DONE. We have ANOTHER project that you have to get on immediately." It's not good to be in a job where they won't let you be thorough in error checking nor let you write comments. And, of course, "Don't waste space with more than two decimal digits for year. NOTHING that we are doing now will still be in use 30 years from now." One of the tasks that I was assigned (working for a contractor at GSFC) was to work on converting a wall of punch-card subroutines for plotting on Calcomp plotters that needed to be changed to work on Stromberg-Carlson (later Stromberg Datagraphics). It was budgeted for a LONG project to rewrite all of them. I realized that all of the subroutines for Calcomp called lower and lower level routines, on down to a small number of primitives. It was easy to write primitives for those lowest level ones, that worked on the SC/SD. I got some help with the JCL to link my primitives to the routines for the Calcomps. All of the routines for Calcomp worked fine calling their lower level routines, and ultimately calling MY primitives. The company got a small bonus for getting it all done way sooner than planned, and I got a private major reprimand for getting it all done way sooner than it was budgeted for. Many others earned bonuses for the company. The company distributed the bonuses as BIG bonuses to upper executives (I think that the top guy got a car), and gave each of us a gift certificate/coupon for a turkey. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 17:34:06 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:34:06 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: In the past (and occasionally today, I use the following construct: FILE *myfile; if ( !(myfile = fopen( filename, "r")) { fprintf( stderr, "Couldn\'t open %s - exiting\n", filename); exit (1); } Yes, it only saves a line, but neatly describes what's being done. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 17:59:40 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:59:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > In the past (and occasionally today, I use the following construct: > > FILE *myfile; > > if ( !(myfile = fopen( filename, "r")) > { > fprintf( stderr, "Couldn\'t open %s - exiting\n", filename); > exit (1); > } > > Yes, it only saves a line, but neatly describes what's being done. > > --Chuck Yes. That is another excellent example of where you DO want to do an assignment AND a comparison (to zero). A better example than my strcpy one, although yours does not need to save that extra line, but a string copy can't afford to be slowed down even a little. That is why it MUST be a WARNING, not an ERROR. Of course, the error is when that wasn't what you intended to do. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 29 18:13:57 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:13:57 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> In a lot of industry standard coding practices (MISRA, CERT-C) that type of statement is prohibited and *will* result in an error being reported by the checker/scanner. The if statement in your example has at least 2 errors from MISRA's perspective: * assignment within a conditional statement * the conditional not being a boolean type (that is you can't assume 0 is false and non-0 is true...you actually need to compare...in this case against NULL) On 1/29/21 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> In the past (and occasionally today, I use the following construct: >> >> FILE *myfile; >> >> if ( !(myfile = fopen( filename, "r")) >> { >> ?fprintf( stderr, "Couldn\'t open %s - exiting\n", filename); >> ?exit (1); >> } >> >> Yes, it only saves a line, but neatly describes what's being done. >> >> --Chuck > > Yes. > That is another excellent example of where you DO want to do an > assignment AND a comparison (to zero).? A better example than my > strcpy one, although yours does not need to save that extra line, but > a string copy can't afford to be slowed down even a little. > > That is why it MUST be a WARNING, not an ERROR. > Of course, the error is when that wasn't what you intended to do. > -- TTFN - Guy From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 29 18:30:08 2021 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 00:30:08 +0000 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 30/01/2021 00:13, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > In a lot of industry standard coding practices (MISRA, CERT-C) that > type of statement is prohibited and *will* result in an error being > reported by the checker/scanner. > > The if statement in your example has at least 2 errors from MISRA's > perspective: > > ?* assignment within a conditional statement > ?* the conditional not being a boolean type (that is you can't assume 0 > ?? is false and non-0 is true...you actually need to compare...in this > ?? case against NULL) > > > On 1/29/21 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> In the past (and occasionally today, I use the following construct: >>> >>> FILE *myfile; >>> >>> if ( !(myfile = fopen( filename, "r")) >>> { >>> ?fprintf( stderr, "Couldn\'t open %s - exiting\n", filename); >>> ?exit (1); >>> } >>> >>> Yes, it only saves a line, but neatly describes what's being done. >>> >>> --Chuck >> >> Yes. >> That is another excellent example of where you DO want to do an >> assignment AND a comparison (to zero).? A better example than my >> strcpy one, although yours does not need to save that extra line, but >> a string copy can't afford to be slowed down even a little. >> >> That is why it MUST be a WARNING, not an ERROR. >> Of course, the error is when that wasn't what you intended to do. >> I'm pretty sure that while modern compilers will correctly complain about an assignment in a conditional, they also recognise the idiom and don't warn when the extra set of brackets is present. So when you really do want an assignment and a conditional all in one go, you use the extra set of brackets and everyone (you, the compiler, future you) know that you really meant it. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 18:32:57 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: >>> if ( !(myfile = fopen( filename, "r")) On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > In a lot of industry standard coding practices (MISRA, CERT-C) that type of > statement is prohibited and *will* result in an error being reported by the > checker/scanner. > The if statement in your example has at least 2 errors from MISRA's > perspective: > * assignment within a conditional statement > * the conditional not being a boolean type (that is you can't assume 0 > is false and non-0 is true...you actually need to compare...in this > case against NULL) That particular structure has become an industry standard. MOST dialects of C return a NULL pointer on fopen error. Similarly the code in strcpy has an assignment and is using the numeric valus of each character as if it were boolean, with the terminating NULL ending the while condition. There are some situations where some code might not be obvious to all, in which case good comments provide the explanation. For example, when I use DAA or AAM, etc. in X86 assembly language, I always comment heavily since my uses for breaking up and/or printing numbers are not the original intent for those instructions. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Jan 29 18:54:49 2021 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:54:49 -0800 Subject: CPT Phoenix Jr system unit? Message-ID: <0FAE2A1A-D7E4-433D-9C5D-734FF1E7A924@eschatologist.net> I?ve acquired the display and keyboard portion of a CPT Phoenix Jr but the seller didn?t have the system unit. (I suspect someone along the chain of custody thought it was a generic PC and recycled it.) Does anyone have one that needs a home? ? Chris ? who has an affinity for portrait displays Sent from my iPhone From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 19:55:48 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 01:55:48 +0000 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com>, Message-ID: My problem with words such as DAA is that I constantly have to look them up to see exactly what they actually do. Finding alternate uses it all about knowing what they actually do. I know what they were put there for ( to keep banker happy ). I constantly see people claiming how much better decimal is than the English system of meassurment. I don't really think that much of the decimal number system. If we'd only been born with 8 fingers on each hand, computers would have been so much easier. Thing like powers of 2 are easier to understand in binary. Such is life. If only we'd known. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 4:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: APL\360 >>> if ( !(myfile = fopen( filename, "r")) On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > In a lot of industry standard coding practices (MISRA, CERT-C) that type of > statement is prohibited and *will* result in an error being reported by the > checker/scanner. > The if statement in your example has at least 2 errors from MISRA's > perspective: > * assignment within a conditional statement > * the conditional not being a boolean type (that is you can't assume 0 > is false and non-0 is true...you actually need to compare...in this > case against NULL) That particular structure has become an industry standard. MOST dialects of C return a NULL pointer on fopen error. Similarly the code in strcpy has an assignment and is using the numeric valus of each character as if it were boolean, with the terminating NULL ending the while condition. There are some situations where some code might not be obvious to all, in which case good comments provide the explanation. For example, when I use DAA or AAM, etc. in X86 assembly language, I always comment heavily since my uses for breaking up and/or printing numbers are not the original intent for those instructions. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 20:19:52 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 18:19:52 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <846c6567-83e4-1d22-c059-8356306e9d63@sydex.com> On 1/29/21 5:55 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > My problem with words such as DAA is that I constantly have to look them up to see exactly what they actually do. Finding alternate uses it all about knowing what they actually do. I know what they were put there for ( to keep banker happy ). > I constantly see people claiming how much better decimal is than the English system of meassurment. I don't really think that much of the decimal number system. If we'd only been born with 8 fingers on each hand, computers would have been so much easier. Thing like powers of 2 are easier to understand in binary. > Such is life. If only we'd known. > Dwight Such as 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, and 50 seconds in a minute? Although decimal time has been proposed numerous times, somehow we can't shake our Babylonian roots, even if we don't have 60 fingers. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 29 20:27:29 2021 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 02:27:29 +0000 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <846c6567-83e4-1d22-c059-8356306e9d63@sydex.com> References: <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> , <846c6567-83e4-1d22-c059-8356306e9d63@sydex.com> Message-ID: If we'd thought about it we could count to 1023 on our fingers. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 6:19 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: APL\360 On 1/29/21 5:55 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > My problem with words such as DAA is that I constantly have to look them up to see exactly what they actually do. Finding alternate uses it all about knowing what they actually do. I know what they were put there for ( to keep banker happy ). > I constantly see people claiming how much better decimal is than the English system of meassurment. I don't really think that much of the decimal number system. If we'd only been born with 8 fingers on each hand, computers would have been so much easier. Thing like powers of 2 are easier to understand in binary. > Such is life. If only we'd known. > Dwight Such as 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, and 50 seconds in a minute? Although decimal time has been proposed numerous times, somehow we can't shake our Babylonian roots, even if we don't have 60 fingers. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 29 20:28:00 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 18:28:00 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1b0d2228-3951-23ae-b8c8-da4485853dc6@sydex.com> On 1/29/21 4:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > In a lot of industry standard coding practices (MISRA, CERT-C) that type > of statement is prohibited and *will* result in an error being reported > by the checker/scanner. > > The if statement in your example has at least 2 errors from MISRA's > perspective: > > ?* assignment within a conditional statement > ?* the conditional not being a boolean type (that is you can't assume 0 > ?? is false and non-0 is true...you actually need to compare...in this > ?? case against NULL) Or zero; but then many current C (not C++) implementations do not define an intrinsic boolean type. When writing using gcc, for example, I have to #include So, that leaves us with the value of NULL: 3.2.2.3 Pointers An integral constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression cast to type void * , is called a null pointer constant. If a null pointer constant is assigned to or compared for equality to a pointer, the constant is converted to a pointer of that type. Such a pointer, called a null pointer, is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to any object or function. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 20:44:27 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 18:44:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> , <846c6567-83e4-1d22-c059-8356306e9d63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 2021, dwight via cctalk wrote: > If we'd thought about it we could count to 1023 on our fingers. If the more dominant/aggressive of our ancestors had come from warmer climates where feet don't stink too much to expose in public, then we could have had 20 binary digits. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Jan 29 20:46:24 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 20:46:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com>, Message-ID: <893351267.65442.1611974784980@email.ionos.com> > On 01/29/2021 7:55 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > > I constantly see people claiming how much better decimal is than the English system of meassurment. I don't really think that much of the decimal number system. If we'd only been born with 8 fingers on each hand, computers would have been so much easier. Thing like powers of 2 are easier to understand in binary. > Such is life. If only we'd known. > Dwight > Some knew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octal#Usage From spc at conman.org Fri Jan 29 20:51:17 2021 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 21:51:17 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1391920421.103096.1611961357149@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <20210130025117.GA5326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated: > >Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable > >-Werror; all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even > >when everyone claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before > >that existed, I?d do the same with lint, and FlexeLint when I > >could get it. > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: > >That's exactly what I did and was then told I was likely to get fired for > >it. I left that job soon after. > >"A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert > >Einstein > > > Similarly, "You don't have time to write comments as you go along. You > can go back and add them in AFTER the program is working." Of course, as > soon as it "seems to be working", "We're not paying you to mess with stuff > that's already DONE. We have ANOTHER project that you have to get on > immediately." > > It's not good to be in a job where they won't let you be thorough in error > checking nor let you write comments. I had a manager that told me not to be so pedantic about verifying the incoming SIP messages because otherwise we (the Company) were going to go out of business in six months if we didn't get the product OUT THE DOOR! I compromised on it---I didn't remove the checks, but for those that didn't matter to our processing the message, I just logged the violation and continued processing. No one in the department was familiar with SIP at the time so I figured tha was at least help us debug any issues. Of course, said manager left six months later because of burnout [1], and two, I'm still at the same job five years later. -spc [1] He was originally a developer who was forced into a management role, something he was *very bad at*, and he still did development work, not fully trusting anyone underneath him (nor operations, but that's a whole other story). From spc at conman.org Fri Jan 29 20:57:28 2021 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 21:57:28 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <413989228.448347082.1611962307255.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> <413989228.448347082.1611962307255.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20210130025728.GB5326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Norman Jaffe via cctalk once stated: > > It happened to me as well - I found hundreds of warnings in the code and, > after getting permission to address them, I was fired Wait ... you got *permission* and were still *fired*? Have I just been fortunate in where I've worked my entire career? [1] > because 'we would > have to recompile the Windows version due to the changes you made'; the > source code was reverted to the state before I made the changes. Wouldn't you have to recompile the Windows version for updates? Or was the company too cheap (or was unable to) run regression tests? > I refuse > to have their product on any system that I have involvement with... Can you name names? Or do you need to protect yourself? -spc [1] Possibly yes. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 30 00:03:08 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:03:08 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 4:32 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> if ( !(myfile = fopen( filename, "r")) > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >> In a lot of industry standard coding practices (MISRA, CERT-C) that >> type of statement is prohibited and *will* result in an error being >> reported by the checker/scanner. >> The if statement in your example has at least 2 errors from MISRA's >> perspective: >> * assignment within a conditional statement >> * the conditional not being a boolean type (that is you can't assume 0 >> ? is false and non-0 is true...you actually need to compare...in this >> ? case against NULL) > > That particular structure has become an industry standard. > MOST dialects of C return a NULL pointer on fopen error. > Similarly the code in strcpy has an assignment and is using the > numeric valus of each character as if it were boolean, with the > terminating NULL ending the while condition. And unfortunately some industries it is prohibited.? Those industries *require* conformance to MISRA, CERT-C, ISO-26262 and others.? There is *no* choice since the code has to be audited and compliance is *not* optional. -- TTFN - Guy From turing at shaw.ca Sat Jan 30 06:05:09 2021 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 05:05:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <20210130025728.GB5326@brevard.conman.org> References: <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> <413989228.448347082.1611962307255.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20210130025728.GB5326@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <2081570705.450505987.1612008309453.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I was responsible for the Macintosh version and hence was both permitted to address the changes and criticized for impacting the Windows builds - the changes were in shared code. I would probably face legal issues if I named names. [You can always look me up in LinkedIn and, with minor detective skills, guess which product...] From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 6:57:28 PM Subject: Re: APL\360 It was thus said that the Great Norman Jaffe via cctalk once stated: > > It happened to me as well - I found hundreds of warnings in the code and, > after getting permission to address them, I was fired Wait ... you got *permission* and were still *fired*? Have I just been fortunate in where I've worked my entire career? [1] > because 'we would > have to recompile the Windows version due to the changes you made'; the > source code was reverted to the state before I made the changes. Wouldn't you have to recompile the Windows version for updates? Or was the company too cheap (or was unable to) run regression tests? > I refuse > to have their product on any system that I have involvement with... Can you name names? Or do you need to protect yourself? -spc [1] Possibly yes. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 30 07:29:40 2021 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 05:29:40 -0800 Subject: ISO IBM flex cables made by Chabin Message-ID: I'm making some replacement cables and paddle cards so I'm on the lookout for these connectors on cable assemblies. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/dasd/21ED/chabin_4.jpg You'd think there would be piles of them around since they were used as the interplanar connecting cables in lots of IBM products. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 30 09:29:39 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 09:29:39 -0600 Subject: ISO IBM flex cables made by Chabin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60157B63.3010300@pico-systems.com> On 01/30/2021 07:29 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I'm making some replacement cables and paddle cards so I'm > on the lookout > for these connectors on cable assemblies. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/dasd/21ED/chabin_4.jpg > > You'd think there would be piles of them around since they > were used as > the interplanar connecting cables in lots of IBM products. > > Oh wow! Yes, I may have some of these laying around somewhere. I will look, it might be a few days. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 30 11:00:38 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:00:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. References: <1923189445.570275.1612026038957.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1923189445.570275.1612026038957@mail.yahoo.com> Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.?? Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a computer on the table"? Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? Thank you very much in advance Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 30 11:30:21 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:30:21 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane Message-ID: I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem.? Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to scope the bus. I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. Does anybody have one they don't want?? Power supply not needed. cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org From mark.tapley at swri.org Sat Jan 30 11:30:42 2021 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:30:42 +0000 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> <846c6567-83e4-1d22-c059-8356306e9d63@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 29, 2021, at 8:27 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > If we'd thought about it we could count to 1023 on our fingers. > Dwight My kids actually do that (because I did think about it when they were growing up). And not just to impress me, I was watching the elder daughter in an orchestra concert via streaming cam one time. The camera happened to catch her during a really long rest, and I could see her hand resting on her knee, counting out measures in binary. As far as I know, none of the kids have learned to control their toes individually, so they can?t actually count up to 1,048,575 :-). - Mark From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 11:35:24 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:35:24 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <6B737D18-5F3E-470F-8299-CD473FE2EEB6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 2:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> BTW, I don't really know Hebrew but doesn't it still write math LTR? >> I know they write numbers that way. > > CAREFUL. > > We don't need another BIG-endian/little-endian debate! > (when a 16 bit number is stored in bytes, does the high order byte come > first, or the low order byte?)? (cf. intel V Motorola) Yes, it does. :-) bill From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jan 30 11:38:40 2021 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 09:38:40 -0800 Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. In-Reply-To: <1923189445.570275.1612026038957@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1923189445.570275.1612026038957.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1923189445.570275.1612026038957@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I assume you already have a copy of the Oct 1985 HP Journal? http://hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1985-10.pdf On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around > it for. > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting > visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a > computer on the table" > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need! > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist for SMECC > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 11:42:25 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:42:25 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 4:12 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> On 01/29/2021 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> > >> '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and >> which the compiler doesn't catch: >> if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ >> I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a >> WARNING for it. >> > > Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. And the problem here is really quite plain and simple. Why are you shipping code with any warnings? > > There's a pretty good chance the heat pump you're using right now has those warnings. Alas... Just because some other programmer is an idiot doesn't mean I have to be. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 11:45:20 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:45:20 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 4:25 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > On 01/29/21 15:58, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote (in part): >> '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, >> and which the compiler doesn't catch: >> if (x = 3) . . .?? /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ >> I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would >> return a WARNING for it. > > Henry's first commandment: Thou shalt run lint frequently and study its > pronouncements with care, for verily its perception and judgement oft > exceed thine. > > N. Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? bill From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sat Jan 30 11:47:37 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:47:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1586424267.223830.1612028857760@email.ionos.com> > On 01/30/2021 11:42 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. > And the problem here is really quite plain and simple. > Why are you shipping code with any warnings? > The short answer, as I replied earlier, is that they deemed the code too fragile to touch. When I told them I removed the warnings they said to put them back or I would likely be fired. > > There's a pretty good chance the heat pump you're using right now has those warnings. Alas... > Just because some other programmer is an idiot doesn't mean I have > to be. They only wanted idiots. So I immediately started looking for another job. I might be an idiot, but I don't want to be associated with the rest of them :-) Will "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 11:50:20 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:50:20 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> References: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 6:08 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Will Cooke via cctalk once stated: >> >>> On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; >>> all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even when everyone >>> claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before that existed, I?d do the >>> same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. >> >> That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired >> for it. > > WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some > manager upstream look bad or something? They would see you as wasting valuable time fixing non-problems. I would not work in a place like that. Worse sti8ll is when you work in a place point out logic errors that result in bad answers that, obviously, don't get flagged by the compiler and nobody wants to hear it. bill From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 11:52:03 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 09:52:03 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > And unfortunately some industries it is prohibited.? Those industries > *require* conformance to MISRA, CERT-C, ISO-26262 and others.? There is > *no* choice since the code has to be audited and compliance is *not* > optional. Just an illustration of what happens when you take a "portable alternative to assembly" and put lipstick on it. I've been programming C since System III Unix and I still consider it to be a portable (sort of) alternative to assembly. One of the problems with C, in my view, is a lack of direction. There are plenty of languages that aim for specific ends. (e.g. COBOL = business/commercial, FORTRAN = scientific, Java = web applications, etc.). But whence C or C++? In my dotage, I do a fair amount of MCU programming nowadays, and C is the lingua franca in that world; the only real alternative is assembly, so that makes some sense. Python, Ada, etc. never really managed to make much headway there. C is far more prevalent than C++ in that world, FWIW. Does standard C have vector extensions yet? I was an alternate rep for my firm for F90 (was supposed to be F88) for vector extensions; it's just a matter of curiosity. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 11:56:01 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:56:01 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <846c6567-83e4-1d22-c059-8356306e9d63@sydex.com> References: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> <846c6567-83e4-1d22-c059-8356306e9d63@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/29/21 9:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/21 5:55 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> My problem with words such as DAA is that I constantly have to look them up to see exactly what they actually do. Finding alternate uses it all about knowing what they actually do. I know what they were put there for ( to keep banker happy ). >> I constantly see people claiming how much better decimal is than the English system of meassurment. I don't really think that much of the decimal number system. If we'd only been born with 8 fingers on each hand, computers would have been so much easier. Thing like powers of 2 are easier to understand in binary. >> Such is life. If only we'd known. >> Dwight > > Such as 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, and 50 seconds in a > minute? > > Although decimal time has been proposed numerous times, somehow we can't > shake our Babylonian roots, even if we don't have 60 fingers. And what's with these 12 months of different lengths? :-) bill From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sat Jan 30 11:57:22 2021 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:57:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <1242486405.103147.1611961593901@email.ionos.com> <20210129230828.GZ5326@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <1404105250.223960.1612029442662@email.ionos.com> > On 01/30/2021 11:50 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/29/21 6:08 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Will Cooke via cctalk once stated: > > > > >>> On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; > >>> all warnings are errors. And I?ll fix every one. Even when everyone > >>> claims that ?These are not a problem?. Before that existed, I?d do the > >>> same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. > >> > >> That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired > >> for it. > > WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some > > manager upstream look bad or something? > They would see you as wasting valuable time fixing non-problems. > I would not work in a place like that. Worse sti8ll is when you > work in a place point out logic errors that result in bad answers > that, obviously, don't get flagged by the compiler and nobody wants > to hear it. > > bill That happened too, with similar results. "Don't touch it. You might 'break' it." "It's already broken." "But it 'works'" That code is running maybe 25% of all mid-sized commercial heat pumps in use today. "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jan 30 12:09:55 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:09:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. References: <439701685.596041.1612030195631.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <439701685.596041.1612030195631@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL.? We do not have manuals? either.? We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still order ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. I will have to get a copy of this journal meanwhile I will read this one you sent the link to! Back when we were selling? the HP PC? computers? this was a current product but outside our contract? with HP.? I was working with HP 150 abd the display potables HP offered and used 1000 2000 and 3000 systems? but always looked at how neat? this was. Ed# On Saturday, January 30, 2021 Doug Salot wrote: I assume you already have a copy of the Oct 1985 HP Journal?http://hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1985-10.pdf On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.?? Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a computer on the table"? Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? Thank you very much in advance Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC From cym224 at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 12:57:46 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:57:46 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6015AC2A.4000409@gmail.com> On 30/01/2021 12:45, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/21 4:25 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >> On 01/29/21 15:58, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote (in part): >>> '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, >>> and which the compiler doesn't catch: >>> if (x = 3) . . .? ? /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ >>> I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would >>> return a WARNING for it. >> >> Henry's first commandment: Thou shalt run lint frequently and study >> its pronouncements with care, for verily its perception and judgement >> oft exceed thine. >> >> N. > > > Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). N. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 30 14:17:33 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:17:33 -0800 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> <59e3e963-80ea-1bd5-c426-337f89cf2651@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2eb922d0-9bab-c14d-3add-ce9851d6fed6@shiresoft.com> On 1/30/21 9:52 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/21 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > >> And unfortunately some industries it is prohibited.? Those industries >> *require* conformance to MISRA, CERT-C, ISO-26262 and others.? There is >> *no* choice since the code has to be audited and compliance is *not* >> optional. > Just an illustration of what happens when you take a "portable > alternative to assembly" and put lipstick on it. I've been programming > C since System III Unix and I still consider it to be a portable (sort > of) alternative to assembly. > > One of the problems with C, in my view, is a lack of direction. There > are plenty of languages that aim for specific ends. (e.g. COBOL = > business/commercial, FORTRAN = scientific, Java = web applications, > etc.). But whence C or C++? > > In my dotage, I do a fair amount of MCU programming nowadays, and C is > the lingua franca in that world; the only real alternative is assembly, > so that makes some sense. Python, Ada, etc. never really managed to > make much headway there. C is far more prevalent than C++ in that > world, FWIW. > > Does standard C have vector extensions yet? I was an alternate rep for > my firm for F90 (was supposed to be F88) for vector extensions; it's > just a matter of curiosity. I've been writing in C since 1977 (Unix V6 days and went through the =+ to += conversion in V7).? I've seen *a lot* of changes in C over that time. Most of what I do is low level stuff (OS, RTOS, etc) and actually *rarely* even use the C library (most of what I build is built with -nostdlibs). I typically build using -c99 but I'm looking at C11 because of atomics that were introduced then but I have to see what's native compiler generated versus what it relies on for the atomic operations.? I haven't yet seen what's in C17 yet.? I've also been known to write a special hand crafted function so that an entire portion of the C library doesn't get pulled in.? Not only did it save a bunch of space but it was *much* faster too. TTFN - Guy From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Jan 30 15:14:47 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 16:14:47 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hm. I have a 9 slot BA11-S that I have to sell/ebay/something here, but that's probably way too big for you. I wonder though: Would an 11/93 explode if put in a traditional 18 bit 11/03 chassis? The one with the memory refresh lines and power for core memory. Probably. CZ On 1/30/2021 12:30 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem. > Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with > printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small > condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to > scope the bus. > > I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane > that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. > > Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. > > Does anybody have one they don't want?? Power supply not needed. > > cheers, > > Nigel > From mark at markesystems.com Sat Jan 30 14:37:14 2021 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:37:14 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <934B5C3FA26543D197282E6E73104D45@Daedalus> On 1/29/21 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. > > That's fine, but when you have a language that makes indentation part of > the language (i.e. no braces, brackets or keywords denoting boundaries > of the block) , there be monsters. > > And yes, there are such languages. Uh - Python comes to mind... ~~ Mark Moulding From mark at markesystems.com Sat Jan 30 14:44:59 2021 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:44:59 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <591E93343A104CD3ADBAC9C21262B870@Daedalus> From: dwight > If we'd thought about it we could count to 1023 on our fingers. I used to play string bass in a symphony, and there were many times that there would be long periods of rest, where it was important to count the bars (measures) going by so as to come back in at the right time. To this day (that was 40+ years ago) I can still count quite rapidly up to 31 on one hand (either one). Higher numbers slow me down a bit... Old bass joke: During the last movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, there is a very long tacit (rest) for the basses. So the bass section all went over to the bar across the street for a drink or three. To keep the conductor from passing by their entry, they put a rubber band around his music. So the situation was... Bottom of the ninth, basses loaded, score tied. (sorry...) ~~ Mark Moulding From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 30 15:38:10 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:38:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: APL\360 (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <934B5C3FA26543D197282E6E73104D45@Daedalus> References: <934B5C3FA26543D197282E6E73104D45@Daedalus> Message-ID: Actually, that was Chuck who said that "there be monsters" when languages use whitespace rather than punctuation to denote boundaries. I use both indentation for my readability AND brackets to be explicit. Consider: if condition { do this; do that; } VS: if (condition) do this; do that; /* will be done disunirregardless of condition */ On Sat, 30 Jan 2021, Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/21 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. >> >> That's fine, but when you have a language that makes indentation part of >> the language (i.e. no braces, brackets or keywords denoting boundaries >> of the block) , there be monsters. >> >> And yes, there are such languages. > > Uh - Python comes to mind... > ~~ > Mark Moulding > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 30 16:20:33 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:20:33 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits for the 11/23/73? (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!)? Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four pins for module identification. Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far!? I could always wire-wrap them. Can you ship to Toronto, ON?? How much? cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-30 4:14 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hm. I have a 9 slot BA11-S that I have to sell/ebay/something here, > but that's probably way too big for you. I wonder though: Would an > 11/93 explode if put in a traditional 18 bit 11/03 chassis? The one > with the memory refresh lines and power for core memory. > > Probably. > > CZ > > On 1/30/2021 12:30 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem. >> Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with >> printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small >> condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to >> scope the bus. >> >> I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane >> that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. >> >> Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. >> >> Does anybody have one they don't want?? Power supply not needed. >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 16:34:55 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:34:55 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <591E93343A104CD3ADBAC9C21262B870@Daedalus> References: <591E93343A104CD3ADBAC9C21262B870@Daedalus> Message-ID: On 1/30/21 12:44 PM, Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: > I used to play string bass in a symphony, and there were many times that > there would be long periods of rest, where it was important to count the > bars (measures) going by so as to come back in at the right time.? To > this day (that was 40+ years ago) I can still count quite rapidly up to > 31 on one hand (either one).? Higher numbers slow me down a bit... One of my favorite old Mahler cartoons is a shot of a mustachioed tuba player, sound asleep. Title is something like "G. Mahler/Symphonie Nr. 5./IV. Adagietto/ Tacet" For low brass, there's a lot of that sort of thing in the symphonic repertoire. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 30 17:05:46 2021 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 15:05:46 -0800 Subject: APL\360 (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: <934B5C3FA26543D197282E6E73104D45@Daedalus> Message-ID: <30e57072-2201-30b5-b135-975605960553@sydex.com> On 1/30/21 1:38 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Actually, that was Chuck who said that "there be monsters" when > languages use whitespace rather than punctuation to denote boundaries. And then there's "make", where a hard tab must be used for indentation, unless it's a recipe, then spaces must be used for indentation. One of those cases where one asks "Who wrote this (*&@#?"? --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 17:08:42 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 15:08:42 -0800 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 2:20 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. > I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits > for the 11/23/73 (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!) > Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four > pins for module identification. > > Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would > make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far! I > could always wire-wrap them. The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a Q/CD backplane, such as the 18-bit 4x9 H9273, the 22-bit 4x9 H9276, or the 22-bit 4x8 H9278 (BA23 backplane). The 4x4 H9270 is a Q/Q backplane, so that would cause a conflict with the PMI signals on the CD connectors of the KDJ11-E 11/93. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 30 17:58:09 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:58:09 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, thanks, Glen, i didn't think of that! Not sure why they would do that with all memeory on-board! One thing I though of was just buying some IDC 36-pin card edge connectors and wiring them together for the work bench! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-30 6:08 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 2:20 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. >> I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits >> for the 11/23/73 (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!) >> Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four >> pins for module identification. >> >> Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would >> make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far! I >> could always wire-wrap them. > The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a > Q/CD backplane, such as the 18-bit 4x9 H9273, the 22-bit 4x9 H9276, or > the 22-bit 4x8 H9278 (BA23 backplane). > > The 4x4 H9270 is a Q/Q backplane, so that would cause a conflict with > the PMI signals on the CD connectors of the KDJ11-E 11/93. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jan 30 18:01:18 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:01:18 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: <6015AC2A.4000409@gmail.com> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> <6015AC2A.4000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/21 1:57 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > On 30/01/2021 12:45, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/29/21 4:25 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: >>> On 01/29/21 15:58, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote (in part): >>>> '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, >>>> and which the compiler doesn't catch: >>>> if (x = 3) . . .? ?? /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ >>>> I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would >>>> return a WARNING for it. >>> >>> Henry's first commandment: Thou shalt run lint frequently and study >>> its pronouncements with care, for verily its perception and judgement >>> oft exceed thine. >>> >>> N. >> >> >> Which Henry was that?? Henry Spencer perhaps? > Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). > > N. Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in nearly 30 years. bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 18:19:39 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 16:19:39 -0800 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:58 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > OK, thanks, Glen, i didn't think of that! Not sure why they would do > that with all memeory on-board! > The PMI interfaces of the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-E modules are used to interface to the M8191 KTJ11-B UNIBUS adaptor in the PDP-11/84 and PDP-11/94 systems. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 30 18:26:24 2021 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 16:26:24 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <934B5C3FA26543D197282E6E73104D45@Daedalus> References: <934B5C3FA26543D197282E6E73104D45@Daedalus> Message-ID: <71b5bcd10894f6c3eada8fa38547976e6d899653.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Sat, 2021-01-30 at 12:37 -0800, Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/21 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. > > > > That's fine, but when you have a language that makes indentation part of > > the language (i.e. no braces, brackets or keywords denoting boundaries > > of the block) , there be monsters. > > > > And yes, there are such languages. > > Uh - Python comes to mind... And Occam, invented for the Transputer. > ~~ > Mark Moulding > From spc at conman.org Sat Jan 30 18:37:18 2021 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:37:18 -0500 Subject: APL\360 In-Reply-To: References: <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2101315486.100375.1611954736901@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <20210131003718.GE5326@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Bill Gunshannon via cctalk once stated: > On 1/29/21 4:12 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > >>On 01/29/2021 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> > > > >>'=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and > >>which the compiler doesn't catch: > >>if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ > >>I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a > >>WARNING for it. > >> > > > >Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. > >But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. > > And the problem here is really quite plain and simple. > Why are you shipping code with any warnings? Because sometimes they aren't. Example: gcc -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wextra -pedantic -fPIC -g -shared -o lib/tcc.so src/tcc.c -ltcc src/tcc.c: In function cclua_get_symbol': src/tcc.c:528: warning: ISO C forbids assignment between function pointer and `void *' ISO C may forbid that, but POSIX requires it, and I'm compiling on a POSIX system, but there isn't (to my knowledge) a way to state that. Yes, I could probably surpresss that one warning, but for me, it's easier to ignore on POSIX systems. Also, have you tried clang with the highest warning level? It's useless. I tried it once, only to be told "warning: struct foo has padding bytes added" (or something to that effect). Okay, so I pack the structure, only to get "Warning: struct foo doesn't have any padding". Yean, real useful that. -spc From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 30 19:41:47 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 20:41:47 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Thanks, Glen.? I got out of direct field work around that time, and set up a subsidiary of Emulex in Canada - so I was more concerned with sales figures than buses.? That makes perfect sense, I had forgotten about the 11/94. Funny how all my controllers are now Dilog, Plessey, and Sigma :-) btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East last year (but one :-) )? Does anybody on the list have experience getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-30 7:19 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:58 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> OK, thanks, Glen, i didn't think of that! Not sure why they would do >> that with all memeory on-board! >> > The PMI interfaces of the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-E modules are used to > interface to the M8191 KTJ11-B UNIBUS adaptor in the PDP-11/84 and > PDP-11/94 systems. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 19:52:00 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 17:52:00 -0800 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East > last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience > getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? I'm not sure if I have tried an EXB-8200 and Dilog SQ703 combination, I might have. I know I have used an EXB-8200 and CMD CQD-220/TM combination numerous times to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on PDP-11 systems. That has worked well for me. I haven't done much with tape on MicroVAX systems. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 30 20:16:41 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:16:41 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Message-ID: I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge for it.? I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. Unfortunately there is not a lot the on-board Dilog diagnostics can do.? I have tried sedning direct commands to it such as unload, but nothing ha[p[pens.it is my oinly hope to get some tapoe backup! If I try: dd if=/dev/mt0 of=/dev/null?????????????????????????????????????????????????? I get dd: /dev/mt0: Input/output error But if I try another LUN I get e.g. dd: /dev/mt1: Device not configured??? So it looks like it is recognising the drive. Maybe Compaq DLTs required something that the controller of NetBSD driver does no know about. Since I have lost the MTI TSV05 QIC2 controller cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-30 8:52 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East >> last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience >> getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? > I'm not sure if I have tried an EXB-8200 and Dilog SQ703 combination, > I might have. > I know I have used an EXB-8200 and CMD CQD-220/TM combination numerous > times to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on PDP-11 systems. > That has worked well for me. > > I haven't done much with tape on MicroVAX systems. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Jan 30 20:23:18 2021 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:23:18 -0800 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Message-ID: <1f8ee05b-f9cc-5d69-f104-5a70fb0dce1b@jwsss.com> On 1/30/2021 6:16 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge > for it.? I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. Off the shelf 8mm tape media works fine.? Might not be "archival" rated, but I have stuff that is 30 years old and reads fine off both that media and the 4mm tape drives. Only tape I have that won't read is one I marked as one I aborted the backup on and kept "just in case" and is marked "bad".? All the rest read. I don't think any of the 8mm media is manufactured anymore, but NOS should work fine. thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jan 30 20:25:52 2021 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 20:25:52 -0600 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Message-ID: <60161530.1050602@pico-systems.com> On 01/30/2021 07:41 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East > last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience > getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? > > Exabytes are pretty classic SCSi tape drives. They come in single-ended and differential configurations, you need to check which you have. The downside is they have a short working life. Back in the day, there were outfits that would rebuild them at an affordable price, I think they cannibalized video drives for parts. I don't know what failed on them, but it seemed that whatever it was would fail even if powered-off and sitting on the shelf. You should have no trouble running them on anything that handles SCSI tape drives. Jon From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jan 30 21:00:20 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 22:00:20 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Message-ID: Thank you Jim, John, and Glen. I'll see if I can find one to tryout. Good night, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-30 8:52 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East >> last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience >> getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? > I'm not sure if I have tried an EXB-8200 and Dilog SQ703 combination, > I might have. > > I know I have used an EXB-8200 and CMD CQD-220/TM combination numerous > times to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on PDP-11 systems. > That has worked well for me. > > I haven't done much with tape on MicroVAX systems. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 30 22:51:52 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 23:51:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane Message-ID: <20210131045152.B276218C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a > Q/CD backplane I have this bit set that plugging a PMI card into a Q/Q slot will damage it? (I think the issue is that some PMI pins are 12V on normal QBUS; too tired to check tonight, I'll get to it tomorrow.) Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 23:28:47 2021 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:28:47 -0800 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:16 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge > for it. I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. > You can still get boxes of sealed never used EXABYTE 112M 8mm data tapes cheap. For example a quick search turned up a box of 5 sealed tapes for $6 including shipping: https://www.ebay.com/itm/124081752928 I didn't try searching for items located in Canada, I suppose that might make things a bit more expensive. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jan 31 00:25:46 2021 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 22:25:46 -0800 Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. In-Reply-To: <439701685.596041.1612030195631@mail.yahoo.com> References: <439701685.596041.1612030195631.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <439701685.596041.1612030195631@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F05B353-A11E-49D6-8558-B429BE056B91@reanimators.org> On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:09, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL. We do not have manuals either. We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still order ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. HP 51604A. I was surprised a few months ago to find that Staples claims to be able to sell new HP cartridges. Looking earlier today, HP can too! Seriously, we?re talking about ink cartridges including replacement print heads for printers manufactured in 1983. -Frank McConnell From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 02:55:10 2021 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 08:55:10 +0000 Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. In-Reply-To: <2F05B353-A11E-49D6-8558-B429BE056B91@reanimators.org> References: <439701685.596041.1612030195631.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <439701685.596041.1612030195631@mail.yahoo.com> <2F05B353-A11E-49D6-8558-B429BE056B91@reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 6:25 AM Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:09, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL. We do not have manuals either. We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still order ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. You can get scans of the manuals from the Australian HP museum site Do you have any expansion boards in it? Extra memory is very useful (and you can turn any of the boards into a 1MByte one by adding the chips and changing links). As is an RS232 interface (something that IMHO should have been built-in) Do NOT leave the ink cartridge in the machine. The ink is somewhat corrosive and if it leaks onto the flexiprint that connects the cartridge to the logic PCB it will damage it. Due to the layout of the machine the flexiprint is longer than the one in a normal Thinkjet so you can't just raid one of those for spares. Yes there is a way to kludge it with ribbon cable and connectors but it's best not to have the problem in the first place. > > HP 51604A. I was surprised a few months ago to find that Staples claims to be able to sell new HP cartridges. Looking earlier today, HP can too! > > Seriously, we?re talking about ink cartridges including replacement print heads for printers manufactured in 1983. I was equally surprised to find that ink ribbons for the Epson HX20 laptop (M160 printer mechanism) along with the ones for the narrower M150 mechanism are still being made. But as I've said before, I'd rather find parts for a machine made 30 years ago than one made 5 years ago. -tony From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 31 05:26:20 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 11:26:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. References: <798272126.737880.1612092380581.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <798272126.737880.1612092380581@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks? folks for the part number for ink jet cartridges. .. we have differnt interface standards version of Thinkjet? plusevthe one in the integral so we can play still! Big thanks for the corisive? ink warning. .. I had no idea! Hopefully we can turn up some poster art and other things? to add? to the display too!? -Ed# On Sunday, January 31, 2021 Tony Duell wrote: On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 6:25 AM Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:09, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL.? We do not have manuals? either.? We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still order ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. You can get scans of the manuals from the Australian HP museum site Do you have any expansion boards in it? Extra memory is very useful (and you can turn any of the boards into a 1MByte one by adding the chips and changing links). As is an RS232 interface (something that IMHO should have been built-in) Do NOT leave the ink cartridge in the machine. The ink is somewhat corrosive and if it leaks onto the flexiprint that connects the cartridge to the logic PCB it will damage it. Due to the layout of the machine the flexiprint is longer than the one in a normal Thinkjet so you can't just raid one of those for spares. Yes there is a way to kludge it with ribbon cable and connectors but it's best not to have the problem in the first place. > > HP 51604A.? I was surprised a few months ago to find that Staples claims to be able to sell new HP cartridges.? Looking earlier today, HP can too! > > Seriously, we?re talking about ink cartridges including replacement print heads for printers manufactured in 1983. I was equally surprised to find that ink ribbons for the Epson HX20 laptop (M160 printer mechanism) along with the ones for the narrower M150 mechanism are still being made. But as I've said before, I'd rather find parts for a machine made 30 years ago than one made 5 years ago. -tony From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Jan 31 08:02:48 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:02:48 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> Message-ID: Not so lucky n Canada!? They wanted $28 shipping! So I got a box of 10 for $28 - but delivery end of Feb. Back burner until then! Thanks Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-31 12:28 a.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:16 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge >> for it. I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. >> > You can still get boxes of sealed never used EXABYTE 112M 8mm data > tapes cheap. For example a quick search turned up a box of 5 sealed > tapes for $6 including shipping: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/124081752928 > > I didn't try searching for items located in Canada, I suppose that > might make things a bit more expensive. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Jan 31 08:05:23 2021 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 09:05:23 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: <20210131045152.B276218C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20210131045152.B276218C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8b1ed16e-bdbd-e23e-1025-5c08a3683031@ieee.org> Thanks Noel, Yes, I tried to repair an 11/34 once after somebody plugged a peripheral board into a memory slot - I was doing well after 3 or 4 chip chnages, it started to come to life, until I found the 20V went right into an d=address line of an in-house numbered ROM! Having been warned by angels I will take another route! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2021-01-30 11:51 p.m., Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Glen Slick > > > The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a > > Q/CD backplane > > I have this bit set that plugging a PMI card into a Q/Q slot will damage it? > (I think the issue is that some PMI pins are 12V on normal QBUS; too tired > to check tonight, I'll get to it tomorrow.) > > Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 31 11:12:34 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:12:34 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: <60161530.1050602@pico-systems.com> References: <2d96d40f-5317-4886-ae13-e396737c5012@ieee.org> <60161530.1050602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <9523e147-c39d-1beb-7040-31f23fefde1e@alembic.crystel.com> Interesting. I have a Contemporary Cybernetics 8505 drive that I think used the Exabyte tape system, will have to dig it out and see what it looks like. Used them at the IEEE Computer Society for years but finally went with IBM LTO tape libraries at Science. The LTOs were more reliable. C On 1/30/2021 9:25 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 01/30/2021 07:41 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East >> last year (but one :-) )? Does anybody on the list have experience >> getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? >> >> > Exabytes are pretty classic SCSi tape drives.? They come in single-ended > and differential configurations, you need to check which you have. > > The downside is they have a short working life.? Back in the day, there > were outfits that would > rebuild them at an affordable price, I think they cannibalized video > drives for parts. > I don't know what failed on them, but it seemed that whatever it was > would fail even if powered-off and sitting on the shelf. > > You should have no trouble running them on anything that handles SCSI > tape drives. > > Jon From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Jan 31 11:18:21 2021 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:18:21 -0500 Subject: Small DEC QBUS backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I only have the S (well, there is a second one in the basement I need to drag up). I did have one of those little 4 slot dual width boxes that had a power supply but I sold it. Wouldn't help with quad width modules anyway. There's another BA23 down there, I'll probably try to haul it up next trip. Was going to go over today but snow so next week most likely. I need to sell some of this stuff. The HP1000 and the BA11-S will go on Ebay unless someone here wants to make an offer. C On 1/30/2021 5:20 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. > I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits > for the 11/23/73? (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!) > Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four > pins for module identification. > > Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would > make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far!? I > could always wire-wrap them. > > Can you ship to Toronto, ON?? How much? > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2021-01-30 4:14 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Hm. I have a 9 slot BA11-S that I have to sell/ebay/something here, >> but that's probably way too big for you. I wonder though: Would an >> 11/93 explode if put in a traditional 18 bit 11/03 chassis? The one >> with the memory refresh lines and power for core memory. >> >> Probably. >> >> CZ >> >> On 1/30/2021 12:30 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem. >>> Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with >>> printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small >>> condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to >>> scope the bus. >>> >>> I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane >>> that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. >>> >>> Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. >>> >>> Does anybody have one they don't want?? Power supply not needed. >>> >>> cheers, >>> >>> Nigel >>> From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jan 31 12:35:50 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 11:35:50 -0700 Subject: Epson QX-10 hard drive Message-ID: Greetings I recently purchased a QCS external hard disk on ebay. This was one of the companies that was selling DEC Rainbow hard drives. I had hoped it was an old Rainbow drive with interesting to me bits... Turns out it is an Epson QX-10 hard drive, full of interesting to bits for the QX-10 CP/M enthusiast. I've had trouble finding a suitable community to note this in should there be people around that care... so I thought I'd ask here is people know of good CP/M groups and/or QX-10/16 groups, mailing lists, irc channels, discord servers, etc I could find. Warner From Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com Sun Jan 31 12:47:12 2021 From: Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com (Smith, Wayne) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:47:12 +0000 Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.?? > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a computer on the table"? > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC As to the number sold, you should be able to get a sense of it by collecting serial numbers from those who have them - once you get enough of them (maybe 20 or so) you should get a sense of about where the numbering started and where it ended. I have two units and if you're interested I can pull the numbers and send them along. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 31 13:21:15 2021 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:21:15 -0600 Subject: Usenet and Google Groups In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> <6015AC2A.4000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210131192302.481A84E651@mx2.ezwind.net> At 06:01 PM 1/30/2021, you wrote: >>>Which Henry was that?? Henry Spencer perhaps? >>Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). >>N. > >Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in nearly 30 years. A legend, indeed, and one that only makes me upset about Google's Usenet archive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups Couldn't Google just give someone else a copy of what Spencer (and everyone else) gave them? - John From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:35:17 2021 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:35:17 -0500 Subject: Usenet and Google Groups In-Reply-To: <20210131192302.481A84E651@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> <6015AC2A.4000409@gmail.com> <20210131192302.481A84E651@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 1/31/21 2:21 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 06:01 PM 1/30/2021, you wrote: >>>> Which Henry was that?? Henry Spencer perhaps? >>> Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). >>> N. >> >> Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in nearly 30 years. > > A legend, indeed, and one that only makes me upset about Google's Usenet archive. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups > > Couldn't Google just give someone else a copy of what Spencer > (and everyone else) gave them? > As my age catches up on me (more lately) I really miss many of the people I knew in the early USENIX years. Sadly, they seem to be fading from my memories faster every day now. bill From julf at julf.com Sun Jan 31 13:40:41 2021 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:40:41 +0100 Subject: Usenet and Google Groups In-Reply-To: References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> <6015AC2A.4000409@gmail.com> <20210131192302.481A84E651@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 31-01-2021 20:35, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > As my age catches up on me (more lately) I really miss many of > the people I knew in the early USENIX years.? Sadly, they seem > to be fading from my memories faster every day now. Hear hear! Julf (formerly seismo!mcvax!penet!julf) From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jan 31 13:46:54 2021 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 19:46:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. References: <889600875.841805.1612122414164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <889600875.841805.1612122414164@mail.yahoo.com> Wayne.. yes please send the 2? serial numbers and others are invited to participate also. Probably good idea to send offlist? to kerp from clogging lister.? Thanks Ed# On Sunday, January 31, 2021 Smith, Wayne via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.?? > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a computer on the table"? > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC As to the number sold, you should be able to get a sense of it by collecting serial numbers from those who have them - once you get enough of them (maybe 20 or so) you should get a sense of about where the numbering started and where it ended.? I have two units and if you're interested I can pull the numbers and send them along. From Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com Sun Jan 31 13:57:06 2021 From: Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com (Smith, Wayne) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 19:57:06 +0000 Subject: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.?? > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a computer on the table"? > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC There is one up on Ebay where you can read the serial number - which is 2505A01815 (the first 4 digits are the build week/year indicator [maybe 25th week of 1985]; "A" is place of mfg [US]; 01815 is the number). From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 15:42:58 2021 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 17:42:58 -0400 Subject: Usenet and Google Groups In-Reply-To: <20210131192302.481A84E651@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <8d04617f-94cc-ab8b-f694-4342020bd2b2@sydex.com> <964617146.374839285.1610677712174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <57ba2738-0a27-db74-8dc4-9e8544d098ba@sydex.com> <3729db87-4b74-66e8-7085-66162f3117a2@sydex.com> <8563550b-e16c-f988-b9ff-af795825c052@jetnet.ab.ca> <2e59e05e-26f9-feca-9050-f5ef5a9524f7@gmail.com> <6015AC2A.4000409@gmail.com> <20210131192302.481A84E651@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1b493463-0751-19ab-4bdd-a2e5d8d66534@gmail.com> On 2021-01-31 3:21 p.m., John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 06:01 PM 1/30/2021, you wrote: >>>> Which Henry was that?? Henry Spencer perhaps? >>> Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). >>> N. >> Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in nearly 30 years. > A legend, indeed, and one that only makes me upset about Google's Usenet archive. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups > > Couldn't Google just give someone else a copy of what Spencer > (and everyone else) gave them? > > - John > I worked with a gentleman for a while who studied at U of T and now teaches there, who told me about visiting Henry's office.? He said all the lights where off save a small desk lamp and there was also a green screen terminal on his desk, a heater under the desk and the walls lined with book cases.? This would have probably been in the mid to late 70s.? I am surprised to hear it was only in 1981 that utzoo was started.? I had my first exposure Usenet about that time too when I discovered that my workplace VM network had a read only service we could subscribe to usenet forums and have the updates delivered as VM notes. Paul. From gavin at learn.bio Sun Jan 31 16:01:33 2021 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:01:33 -0600 Subject: Serial numbers intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne after Ed: > As to the number sold, you should be able to get a sense of it by collecting serial numbers from those who have them - once you get enough of them (maybe 20 or so) you should get a sense of about where the numbering started and where it ended. I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of their product serial numbers. I always thought this could be a fun business idea. You could do the same thing with similar data like fast food restaurant receipt numbers etc. It might be a good model for crowd-sourced data collection. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 16:31:20 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:31:20 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice Message-ID: Hi all -- Making some progress with the "fire sale" PDP-11/70. Over the past month I've rebuilt the power supplies and burned them in on the bench, and I've gotten things cleaned up and reassembled. I'm still waiting on some new chassis fans but my curiosity overwhelmed my caution and I decided to power it up for a short time (like 30 seconds) just to see what happens. Good news: no smoke or fire. Voltages look good (need a tiny bit of adjustment yet) and AC LO and DC LO looked good everywhere I tested them. Bad news: processor is almost entirely unresponsive; comes up with the RUN and MASTER lights on, toggling Halt, and hitting Start causes the RUN light to go out, but that's the only response I get from the console. I got out the KM11 boardset and with that installed I can step through microinstructions and it's definitely executing them, and seems to be following the flow diagrams in the engineering drawings. Left to its own devices, however, the processor doesn't seem to be executing microinstructions at all, it's stuck at uAddress 200. In the troubleshooting section of the 11/70 service docs (diagram on p. 5-16) it states: IF LOAD ADRS DOES NOT WORK AND: - RUN, MASTER & ALL DATA INDICATORS ARE ON - uADRS = 200 (ZAP) THEN MEMORY HAS LOST POWER Which seems to adequately describe the symptoms I'm seeing, but as far as I can tell the AC and DC LO signals are all fine. (This system has a Setasi PEP70/Hypercache installed, so there's no separate memory chassis to worry about.) I'm going to go back and re-check everything, but I was curious if anyone knows whether loss of AC or DC would prevent the processor from executing microcode -- from everything I understand it should cause a trap, and I don't see anything in the docs about inhibiting microcode execution. But perhaps if this happens at power-up things behave differently? And the fact that the troubleshooting flowchart calls out these exact symptoms would seem to indicate that this is expected. But I'm curious why the KM11 can step the processor, in this case. I'm going to wait until the new fans arrive (hopefully tomorrow or tuesday) before I poke at this again, just looking for advice here on the off chance anyone's seen this behavior before. Thanks as always! - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 31 16:38:52 2021 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:38:52 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> Did you check to make sure that power is wired correctly to the PEP-70/Hypercache?? They are typically installed in "empty" slots and don't have power (or anything else) routed to them.? They require some additional jumpers to be installed on the backplane so that they get power. On 1/31/21 2:31 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > Making some progress with the "fire sale" PDP-11/70. Over the past month > I've rebuilt the power supplies and burned them in on the bench, and I've > gotten things cleaned up and reassembled. I'm still waiting on some new > chassis fans but my curiosity overwhelmed my caution and I decided to power > it up for a short time (like 30 seconds) just to see what happens. Good > news: no smoke or fire. Voltages look good (need a tiny bit of adjustment > yet) and AC LO and DC LO looked good everywhere I tested them. Bad news: > processor is almost entirely unresponsive; comes up with the RUN and MASTER > lights on, toggling Halt, and hitting Start causes the RUN light to go out, > but that's the only response I get from the console. > > I got out the KM11 boardset and with that installed I can step through > microinstructions and it's definitely executing them, and seems to be > following the flow diagrams in the engineering drawings. Left to its own > devices, however, the processor doesn't seem to be executing > microinstructions at all, it's stuck at uAddress 200. > > In the troubleshooting section of the 11/70 service docs (diagram on p. > 5-16) it states: > > IF LOAD ADRS DOES NOT WORK AND: > - RUN, MASTER & ALL DATA INDICATORS ARE ON > - uADRS = 200 (ZAP) > THEN MEMORY HAS LOST POWER > > Which seems to adequately describe the symptoms I'm seeing, but as far as I > can tell the AC and DC LO signals are all fine. (This system has a Setasi > PEP70/Hypercache installed, so there's no separate memory chassis to worry > about.) I'm going to go back and re-check everything, but I was curious if > anyone knows whether loss of AC or DC would prevent the processor from > executing microcode -- from everything I understand it should cause a trap, > and I don't see anything in the docs about inhibiting microcode execution. > But perhaps if this happens at power-up things behave differently? And the > fact that the troubleshooting flowchart calls out these exact symptoms > would seem to indicate that this is expected. But I'm curious why the KM11 > can step the processor, in this case. > > I'm going to wait until the new fans arrive (hopefully tomorrow or tuesday) > before I poke at this again, just looking for advice here on the off chance > anyone's seen this behavior before. > > Thanks as always! > - Josh -- TTFN - Guy From drb at msu.edu Sun Jan 31 16:47:49 2021 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 17:47:49 -0500 Subject: Serial numbers intelligence In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:01:33 -0600.) References: Message-ID: <20210131224749.99C96BA16@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number > intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like > were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and > record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things > like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took > measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of > their product serial numbers. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/20/secondworldwar.tvandradio De From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 16:56:09 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:56:09 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice In-Reply-To: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> References: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 2:39 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Did you check to make sure that power is wired correctly to the > PEP-70/Hypercache? They are typically installed in "empty" slots and > don't have power (or anything else) routed to them. They require some > additional jumpers to be installed on the backplane so that they get power. > Yes, it's wired up (Don't know who did the installation, but I'm assuming it was operational at some point). There are four large black jumper wires leading from slot 18 to slot 19, matching the instructions in the PEP70 installation manual. Thanks, Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 31 17:21:36 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 15:21:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Serial numbers intelligence In-Reply-To: <20210131224749.99C96BA16@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210131224749.99C96BA16@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: > > I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number > > intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like > > were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and > > record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things > > like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took > > measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of > > their product serial numbers. On Sun, 31 Jan 2021, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/20/secondworldwar.tvandradio A minor glitch, common to MOST studies is the assumption that the sample is representative of the whole. But, consider that the tanks were presumably put into service immediately, as soon as they could leave the factory. Therefore, #20 was in use for a while longer before #92. Unstated was whether they had any idea how long that had been. It is likely that the tanks that were captured were probably captured because they broke down, or were no longer working as well as the fresh ones. That would tend to bias the sample as tending to be the oldest. Therefore, it would be likely (not a certainty) that the newest ones, being in better condition, and POSSIBLY including some improvements were more likely to have been able to get away. That would call for detailed comparison of #20 with #92, looking for any differences, AND looking to see how well they had been maintained. (Loss of efficiency over time can be a function of maintenance) Admittedly,within their tiny sample, the numbers are fairly well distributed, although there is a definite increasing gap between numbers between. The formula assumes that production is at a constant rate, rather than speeding up over time (early production is usually not as fast as later), or slowing down with parts shortages. Their sample was too small to be completely trusted as being representative. Realistically, there were numerous factors that could make such a tiny sample unrepresentative. And therefore, the estimate of 109 should have been plus or minus a LARGE number. It is not clear nor stated how many had been captured by the time that they made the GUESS of 246 for an actual number of 245. Perhaps they had captured hundreds by then, and could more reliably estimate. If they had still captured only a few, then their guess was extraordinarily lucky. The reliability of the calculation increases dramatically as the sample size grows. From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Jan 31 17:36:45 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 00:36:45 +0100 Subject: Serial numbers intelligence In-Reply-To: <20210131224749.99C96BA16@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20210131224749.99C96BA16@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20210131233645.GA23291@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 05:47:49PM -0500, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number > > intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like > > were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and > > record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things > > like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took > > measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of > > their product serial numbers. > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/20/secondworldwar.tvandradio > > De Nice article, but certain paragraph made me uneasy: "By 1941-42, the allies knew that US and even British tanks had been technically superior to German Panzer tanks in combat, but they were worried about the capabilities of the new marks IV and V. " Oh really. I remember that US combat manual (or whatever they were called) from the era recommended a Tiger should be engaged by at least four Shermans. Assuming Tiger was waiting for them coming by the road, the first one was to be destroyed by the first shot, then the next one or two while they were getting closer to German tank, and finally the fourth had a chance to outmanouver the Tiger (they really sucked in dancing, from what I have read) and pack it a shot in the back from close distance. Sorry for nitpicking. Perhaps my memory comes from alternative reality, but it rhymes with data claiming that number of M4 Shermans produced during 1942-1945 period was almost 50000. As of the problem itself, here are some links. It is called "German tanks problem". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318184 https://www.eadan.net/blog/german-tank-problem/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 31 17:59:27 2021 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 15:59:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Serial numbers intelligence In-Reply-To: <20210131233645.GA23291@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20210131224749.99C96BA16@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20210131233645.GA23291@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Feb 2021, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Nice article, but certain paragraph made me uneasy: > > "By 1941-42, the allies knew that US and even British tanks had been > technically superior to German Panzer tanks in combat, but they were > worried about the capabilities of the new marks IV and V. " > > Oh really. I remember that US combat manual (or whatever they were > called) from the era recommended a Tiger should be engaged by at least > four Shermans. Assuming Tiger was waiting for them coming by the road, > the first one was to be destroyed by the first shot, then the next one > or two while they were getting closer to German tank, and finally the > fourth had a chance to outmanouver the Tiger (they really sucked in > dancing, from what I have read) and pack it a shot in the back from > close distance. > > Sorry for nitpicking. Perhaps my memory comes from alternative > reality, but it rhymes with data claiming that number of M4 Shermans > produced during 1942-1945 period was almost 50000. > > As of the problem itself, here are some links. It is called "German > tanks problem". > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318184 > > https://www.eadan.net/blog/german-tank-problem/ > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem Thank you for the references. I know nothing of any actual details about tanks. But, "Oddball" (Donald Sutherland) in "Kelly's Heroes" said that the only way that they could take on a Tiger, "Yeah. Look, a Tiger has only one weak point. That's its ass. You got to hit it point blank and you've got to hit it from behind." From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 31 19:05:43 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 17:05:43 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice In-Reply-To: References: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <80C7C186-38CB-4CD7-90B7-967AB7CFCFC1@fritzm.org> Hi Josh, ZAP is effectively reset for the micro-architecture, forcing the ucode address to known/initial value. It has multiple sources throughout the processor, including tendrils into some of trap handling hardware. (Caveat: my experience is based off extensive work with the '11/45, but the micro-architecture as I understand it for the '11/70 is quite similar.) For the '45, there was a very handy "KB11-A,D Maintenance Manual", which explained the logic of such internal signals and the board by board internal operation of the CPU to a very useful level of detail; I'm sure similar is available for the KB11-B,C? It's worth a read through if you haven't already, though its quite a bit to take in. I would imagine the next step would be to throw the RAC board out on extenders, verify that ZAP is asserted, and if so pursue the driving source. Do you know if you have a KB11-B or C? Happy hunting! --FritzM. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 31 19:32:54 2021 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 01:32:54 +0000 Subject: Microsoft fortran and c manuals Message-ID: Hi Thomas, Did you ever the pdf copies of these? I also would like to get a set. Thanks, Randy From tomas at basun.net Sun Jan 31 19:44:56 2021 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 02:44:56 +0100 Subject: Microsoft fortran and c manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <875z3cd0iv.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi, No, there is just the HTML pages from the MS CD: https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/c/ and this: http://www.x-hacker.org/ng/msc60/index.html /Tomas On Mon, 01 Feb 2021 02:32:54 +0100, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > Did you ever the pdf copies of these? > > I also would like to get a set. > > Thanks, > > Randy > From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Jan 31 19:49:19 2021 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 02:49:19 +0100 Subject: Serial numbers intelligence In-Reply-To: References: <20210131224749.99C96BA16@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20210131233645.GA23291@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20210201014919.GB23291@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 03:59:27PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > I know nothing of any actual details about tanks. > But, "Oddball" (Donald Sutherland) in "Kelly's Heroes" said that the > only way that they could take on a Tiger, "Yeah. Look, a Tiger has > only one weak point. That's its ass. You got to hit it point blank > and you've got to hit it from behind." Heh. I half-liked the movie. Action moments seemed ok to me, but the overall theme of "let's make some money of this", not so much. I do not have extensive knowledge about equipment, but in my younger years I was an avid strategy gamer. Turn-based strategy rather than real-time one. I wanted to make educated choices, so I started to read from various places, watching documentaries etc. So, not an expert, just a somehow educated gamer. So, yes, if the armageddon happens, I might know what to pick from one of those military storages... But I would rather pick an amateur telescope. Comparing tank performance is a broad subject, of course. And off topic. I have learned few shocking things about those beasts. I do not remember all the details I used to, but I was not amazed from what I learned about US and British tanks... Stuff like a round from 88mm German gun could penetrate both side walls of the best opposing tank. With poor fellows sitting inside. As I do not play anymore (lack of time), I still read an article or two on the military history. I came to thinking that war is totally unglorious business, each side makes errors and the winner is, whoever makes smaller number of catastrophic ones. Or can survive on his legs while the opponent cannot, even if he made less errors. Etc. A bit closer to interests of this list, there was a vast field of information services supporting the high command. Punch cards, trucks with sorters and card punches landing on shores of Normandy... Not as a part of assault forces, of course. A subject (almost) completely lost from war movies. I have barely scratched it. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 20:05:36 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:05:36 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice In-Reply-To: <80C7C186-38CB-4CD7-90B7-967AB7CFCFC1@fritzm.org> References: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> <80C7C186-38CB-4CD7-90B7-967AB7CFCFC1@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 5:05 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Josh, > > ZAP is effectively reset for the micro-architecture, forcing the ucode > address to known/initial value. It has multiple sources throughout the > processor, including tendrils into some of trap handling hardware. (Caveat: > my experience is based off extensive work with the '11/45, but the > micro-architecture as I understand it for the '11/70 is quite similar.) > Yeah, ZAP seems to be the entry point at power-up as well as for trap handling. > For the '45, there was a very handy "KB11-A,D Maintenance Manual", which > explained the logic of such internal signals and the board by board > internal operation of the CPU to a very useful level of detail; I'm sure > similar is available for the KB11-B,C? It's worth a read through if you > haven't already, though its quite a bit to take in. > Yes, there's a similar doc. The engineering drawings include the flow diagrams for the microcode, and the Processor Manual ( http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/EK-KB11C-TM-001_1170procMan.pdf) goes into details on the rest. I started digesting all of this last night, it's going to take awhile :). > > I would imagine the next step would be to throw the RAC board out on > extenders, verify that ZAP is asserted, and if so pursue the driving source. > Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all the power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things come out on extenders :). > > Do you know if you have a KB11-B or C? > It's a KB11-C. > Happy hunting! > Thanks, it'll be interesting for sure. - Josh > --FritzM. > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Jan 31 21:04:28 2021 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 19:04:28 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice In-Reply-To: References: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> <80C7C186-38CB-4CD7-90B7-967AB7CFCFC1@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <37001320-0D80-43BE-9C3E-F703D1D914CB@fritzm.org> > Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all the power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things come out on extenders :). Yup -- I'm surprised how picky my '45 is about +5 undervolt; it really seems happiest with trimmed up to about 5.1 at the backplane. Looks like E106 on the RAC (M8123) might be a good place to start (drawing RACA, lower left.) cheers, --FritzM. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 31 21:44:23 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 22:44:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC backplane power connectors Message-ID: <20210201034423.1FD7718C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tom Uban > The part numbers are: . A106239-ND, TE Connectivity AMP Connectors 1-171196-0, CONN PLUG 6POS MATE-N-LOK NATRL > A1427-ND, TE Connectivity AMP Connectors 1-480323-0, CONN PLUG 15 POS MATE-N-LOK > See attached picture That didn't come through for people on the list; I have posted it here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/tmp/dec_connectors.jpg so everyone can see his connectors. > Looking at the TE.com catalog, the picture for 1-480273-0 does not match > my DD11-DF connector Actually, the 1-480273-0 is _exactly_ the unit DEC used; I looked at the power distribution panel from a BA11-K, and that's what it uses. (I'm too burned out to look at the engineering drawings and get the part number to confirm; I'll do that 'soon'.) I took a picture of the male shells, and added it to the CHWiki page (I'll add the females tomorrow). The detail of the 6-pin one didn't show up too well, so I took another closeup of just it, here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/File:DECPwrConnMaleSml.jpg Your 15-pin is the same as mine (the part number matches). Your 6-pin has 'wings' on the side (these prevent it pulling through when placed in a hole in sheet metal); the 6-pin DEC used has little right-angle arms, just like the ones on the 15-pin, to brace it in place. They are compatible, though, I think; a female shell that will take one probably will take the other. Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 21:55:07 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 19:55:07 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice In-Reply-To: <37001320-0D80-43BE-9C3E-F703D1D914CB@fritzm.org> References: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> <80C7C186-38CB-4CD7-90B7-967AB7CFCFC1@fritzm.org> <37001320-0D80-43BE-9C3E-F703D1D914CB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:04 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all the > power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things come > out on extenders :). > > Yup -- I'm surprised how picky my '45 is about +5 undervolt; it really > seems happiest with trimmed up to about 5.1 at the backplane. > > Looks like E106 on the RAC (M8123) might be a good place to start (drawing > RACA, lower left.) > I was just looking in chapter 4 of the processor manual to learn more about how the processor clocks are generated on the M8139 (TIG) board; on page II-4-2 (p. 136 in the PDF on Bitsavers) section 4.1.3 it says: "The third source of timing [the other two being the crystal clock and a diagnostic R/C network] is the manually-operated, single-step MAINT STPR switch S4, located on the maintenance card. This switch is only enabled when maintenance card switches S2 and S3 are both set to 1." Section 4.2.3 confirms this: "The maintenance card S2 and S1 switches are both set to 1 to allow single timing pulses to be generated by MAINT STPR switch S4.... Removing the S2 or S1 input conditions the MS EN flip-flop to be cleared." Well, what's interesting here is that on my system, switch S4 (MAINT STPR) steps the processor with switches S1 and S2 set to *any* configuration. Tried it with the other KM11 I have, same behavior. This being the case, I wonder if the logic that selects the clock source is faulty, and is always selecting the MAINT STPR input. This would definitely explain the behavior I'm seeing. I hope the fans arrive tomorrow so I can start debugging this :). - Josh > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 22:19:13 2021 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:19:13 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 debugging advice In-Reply-To: References: <7cf71ced-86dd-a099-897e-9f9c945360f6@shiresoft.com> <80C7C186-38CB-4CD7-90B7-967AB7CFCFC1@fritzm.org> <37001320-0D80-43BE-9C3E-F703D1D914CB@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:55 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:04 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all >> the power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things >> come out on extenders :). >> >> Yup -- I'm surprised how picky my '45 is about +5 undervolt; it really >> seems happiest with trimmed up to about 5.1 at the backplane. >> >> Looks like E106 on the RAC (M8123) might be a good place to start >> (drawing RACA, lower left.) >> > > I was just looking in chapter 4 of the processor manual to learn more > about how the processor clocks are generated on the M8139 (TIG) board; on > page II-4-2 (p. 136 in the PDF on Bitsavers) section 4.1.3 it says: > > "The third source of timing [the other two being the crystal clock and a > diagnostic R/C network] is the manually-operated, single-step MAINT STPR > switch S4, located on the maintenance card. This switch is only enabled > when maintenance card switches S2 and S3 are both set to 1." > > Section 4.2.3 confirms this: > > "The maintenance card S2 and S1 switches are both set to 1 to allow single > timing pulses to be generated by MAINT STPR switch S4.... Removing the S2 > or S1 input conditions the MS EN flip-flop to be cleared." > > Well, what's interesting here is that on my system, switch S4 (MAINT STPR) > steps the processor with switches S1 and S2 set to *any* configuration. > Tried it with the other KM11 I have, same behavior. This being the case, I > wonder if the logic that selects the clock source is faulty, and is always > selecting the MAINT STPR input. This would definitely explain the behavior > I'm seeing. I hope the fans arrive tomorrow so I can start debugging this > :). > Ah, and page II-6-20 (p. 178) indicates that when DCLO is asserted, it asserts: "UBCE ROM INIT H - forces the ROM to ZAP.00 (200), and stops and clears the Timing Generator and the Cache timing." I suppose that this is the more likely explanation for the behavior here and that the maintenance card behavior is a side-effect of this. Time to actually probe things, rather than speculating... - Josh > > - Josh > > >> >> cheers, >> --FritzM. >> >> >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 31 22:30:54 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 23:30:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC backplane power connectors Message-ID: <20210201043054.CBEC618C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I have posted it here: Ooops, moved it; now here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/dec_connectors.jpg Noel