From steven at malikoff.com Fri May 1 02:07:07 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 17:07:07 +1000 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anders said > I've had a paper tape reader for a while but never had a punch to make new > tapes, and the ones i've found are not only very large but also very > expensive. So I'm toying with the idea of making an open-source punch, but > I can't find any detailed diagrams of how the mechanism works. > > I'm assuming (without any data to back it up) that there is a cam, an array > of spring-levered pins, and horizontal spacers controlled by solenoids that > bridge the gap between the cam and each punch pin when called for. > > Does anyone have insight into how reliable/fast paper tape punches work? The idea behind the paper tape punch is that the solenoids themselves don't supply the force to do the actual punching, they instead set up the punch pins which are then driven by a cam by a motor with a lot of grunt. I suppose it's like the mechanical equivalent of a transistor switching on by applying a small base current. The once-popular Roytron punch mechanism is described in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/roytron/Roytron500_1966.pdf and may be what you are looking for. It's somewhat comparable to how the keyboard mechanism operates in a Selectric typewriter where interposers drop into place and the cam profile on the filter shaft drives them forward. Or a Creed teleprinter keyboard with toothed code bars that suspend lateral bars being moved with mechanical force. I've also thought about a home made punch that might be built using the Teletype punch blocks that have been on eBay, augmented with a bit of machining, motor and some 3D-printed parts such as the frame. But that's still just a bunch of ideas at present. As for making tape by means other than a punch, if you have a home vinyl/stencil cutting machine you can make working paper tapes using my ptaf2dxf utility https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf It's very slow compared to a real punch and on the standard 12" x 12" cutting mat these machines are supplied with, there will be a number of short tape segments cut that then need to be glued together. But, as a novelty, it works :) Steve. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 1 02:10:22 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:10:22 +0100 Subject: In search of Three Rivers PERQ 1 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <1235070b-5fdc-ad53-ee65-be24747567a2@bitsavers.org> <847bcee8-fa97-a533-df46-631994036402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/30/20 2:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > It is, I refoamed mine for VCFPNW last year. I can take internal pictures if it'd help anyone out. > > > > - Josh > > > > can you dump the firmware? or was that already done for the PERQ emulator? > it should be some flavor of 8048 The PERQ 1 keyboard uses a semi-custom encoder IC labelled AY-3-4592. I suspect there is a mask ROM inside that gives the key mapping and that it was used in other keyboards as there's a PROM (74S477) between the outputs of that encoder and the PERQ. I have a dump of that PROM, it's in the archive of PROMs/PALs that I sent to somebody yesterday. The PERQ 2 keyboard is a standard-ish Keytronics thing with a serial output. That does have a ROMless microcontoller (8035?) in it, again I've dumped the firmware ROM. -tony > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 1 02:17:04 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:17:04 +0100 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 5:02 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've had a paper tape reader for a while but never had a punch to make new > tapes, and the ones i've found are not only very large but also very > expensive. So I'm toying with the idea of making an open-source punch, but > I can't find any detailed diagrams of how the mechanism works. > > I'm assuming (without any data to back it up) that there is a cam, an array > of spring-levered pins, and horizontal spacers controlled by solenoids that > bridge the gap between the cam and each punch pin when called for. > > Does anyone have insight into how reliable/fast paper tape punches work? There are 2 basic designs.... The mechanically simpler one has a solenoid that directly operates each punch pin. The well-known Facit 4070 is of this design, using rotary solenoids and drive levers (I am sure the service manual and parts list (which contains the exploded diagrams) are on-line. Another example of this type is the Heathkit H10 which uses normal linear solenoids. More common is to have a motor driven crankshaft moving a little frame up and down. This goes over the ends of the punch pins and has a bracket to pull them down at the end of the punch cycle. Solenodis (quite small solenoids, almost like relay coils) move spring metal strips (normally called 'interposers' in the manual) into said frame under the punch pin so that the pin is then forced up and through the tape as the frame rises. The Teletype BRPE, GNT34, many Data Dynamics punchs, etc are of this design (to name the ones I can see without getting up). Be warned that making any paper tape punch is going to be non-trivial. Grinding and hardening the punch pins and making the die block for them to run in is quite a difficult machining task. And that's needed what ever drives them. -tony From couryhouse at aol.com Fri May 1 04:00:45 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:00:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1778355482.186516.1588323645281@mail.yahoo.com> Back in? the? HP 2000 days? we? used? to? blow? holes? in? miles? of? Mylar? tape with BURPE teletype? brand? punchers? and? also? a large? TALLY? punch...? ?even? if? you? find? one of? either missing? the? electronics? the? punch mech and pins? are HARD? and? will? cut though? anything! if? you? find? one? with? real? good? electronics? they are usually a? ?parallel? ? type? of? interface...? my? experience? with? Facit? stuff it? ?wore? out? ?easily compared? to those other two? units.? Although? ?The? Facit? units? were? used? as? were? the others? we? liked? so? we had? no? real? history on? previous? use? so? just my 2 cents? worth? based on? personal? experience? in th e days of? old. Ed#? SMECC In a message dated 5/1/2020 12:17:22 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 5:02 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've had a paper tape reader for a while but never had a punch to make new > tapes, and the ones i've found are not only very large but also very > expensive. So I'm toying with the idea of making an open-source punch, but > I can't find any detailed diagrams of how the mechanism works. > > I'm assuming (without any data to back it up) that there is a cam, an array > of spring-levered pins, and horizontal spacers controlled by solenoids that > bridge the gap between the cam and each punch pin when called for. > > Does anyone have insight into how reliable/fast paper tape punches work? There are 2 basic designs.... The mechanically simpler one has a solenoid that directly operates each punch pin. The well-known Facit 4070 is of this design, using rotary solenoids and drive levers (I am sure the service manual and parts list (which contains the exploded diagrams) are on-line. Another example of this type is the Heathkit H10 which uses normal linear solenoids. More common is to have a motor driven crankshaft moving a little frame up and down. This goes over the ends of the punch pins and has a bracket to pull them down at the end of the punch cycle. Solenodis (quite small solenoids, almost like relay coils) move spring metal strips (normally called 'interposers' in the manual) into said frame under the punch pin so that the pin is then forced up and through the tape as the frame rises. The Teletype BRPE, GNT34, many Data Dynamics punchs, etc are of this design (to name the ones I can see without getting up). Be warned that making any paper tape punch is going to be non-trivial. Grinding and hardening the punch pins and making the die block for them to run in is quite a difficult machining task. And that's needed what ever drives them. -tony From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Fri May 1 03:29:03 2020 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:29:03 +0000 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: An option is to use a computer controlled cutter like Cricut or Silhouette to punch a tape. Github has software, look at PTAP2DXF. It has a example pix of a tape made with a "2016 model Silhouette CAMEO vinyl/stencil cutter and a used large yellow business envelope". Interestingly, the tape is labeled "dec-11-lp2c-po", so it was a copy of something DEC. Link: https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf Another avenue is old CNC machines. They used paper readers and some had punches. Spare parts are available but they are pricey. Wayne On May 1, 2020, at 12:17 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 5:02 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: Hi all, I've had a paper tape reader for a while but never had a punch to make new tapes, and the ones i've found are not only very large but also very expensive. So I'm toying with the idea of making an open-source punch, but I can't find any detailed diagrams of how the mechanism works. I'm assuming (without any data to back it up) that there is a cam, an array of spring-levered pins, and horizontal spacers controlled by solenoids that bridge the gap between the cam and each punch pin when called for. Does anyone have insight into how reliable/fast paper tape punches work? There are 2 basic designs.... The mechanically simpler one has a solenoid that directly operates each punch pin. The well-known Facit 4070 is of this design, using rotary solenoids and drive levers (I am sure the service manual and parts list (which contains the exploded diagrams) are on-line. Another example of this type is the Heathkit H10 which uses normal linear solenoids. More common is to have a motor driven crankshaft moving a little frame up and down. This goes over the ends of the punch pins and has a bracket to pull them down at the end of the punch cycle. Solenodis (quite small solenoids, almost like relay coils) move spring metal strips (normally called 'interposers' in the manual) into said frame under the punch pin so that the pin is then forced up and through the tape as the frame rises. The Teletype BRPE, GNT34, many Data Dynamics punchs, etc are of this design (to name the ones I can see without getting up). Be warned that making any paper tape punch is going to be non-trivial. Grinding and hardening the punch pins and making the die block for them to run in is quite a difficult machining task. And that's needed what ever drives them. -tony From hpyle at cabezal.com Fri May 1 07:18:41 2020 From: hpyle at cabezal.com (Hugh Pyle) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:18:41 -0400 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've cut Mylar tape with a Glowforge laser. It cuts very nicely but the alignment is a major hassle, plus you can only cut ~15" of tape which doesn't go very far. Not worth the effort. If you were to build a custom linear drive it might work. But also very slow. Here's a picture of a mechanical (Teletype 33) punch block. These are quite high-precision parts with hardened pins. The pins drive through a narrow gape for tape, into matching holes in the top of the block. On the Teletype, the drive mechanism is slow, and the punch sits quite a long way from the single solenoid that sets up the bits. I assume high-speed punches have a similar block but a more direct (parallel) actuator. https://photos.app.goo.gl/F6QZQE3tiKgiGB6c7 CuriousMarc has a good video showing this sort of punch in operation, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzulZaJbdUU&list=PL-_93BVApb5-84G5kmgfuu7TQduTMc73H&index=8 On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:02 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I've had a paper tape reader for a while but never had a punch to make new > tapes, and the ones i've found are not only very large but also very > expensive. So I'm toying with the idea of making an open-source punch, but > I can't find any detailed diagrams of how the mechanism works. > > I'm assuming (without any data to back it up) that there is a cam, an array > of spring-levered pins, and horizontal spacers controlled by solenoids that > bridge the gap between the cam and each punch pin when called for. > > Does anyone have insight into how reliable/fast paper tape punches work? > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 1 07:28:47 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:28:47 -0400 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 1, 2020, at 3:17 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 5:02 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I've had a paper tape reader for a while but never had a punch to make new >> tapes, and the ones i've found are not only very large but also very >> expensive. So I'm toying with the idea of making an open-source punch, but >> I can't find any detailed diagrams of how the mechanism works. >> >> I'm assuming (without any data to back it up) that there is a cam, an array >> of spring-levered pins, and horizontal spacers controlled by solenoids that >> bridge the gap between the cam and each punch pin when called for. >> >> Does anyone have insight into how reliable/fast paper tape punches work? > > There are 2 basic designs.... > > The mechanically simpler one has a solenoid that directly operates > each punch pin. The well-known Facit 4070 is of this design, using > rotary solenoids and drive levers (I am sure the service manual and > parts list (which contains the exploded diagrams) are on-line. Another > example of this type is the Heathkit H10 which uses normal linear > solenoids. > > More common is to have a motor driven crankshaft moving a little frame > up and down. This goes over the ends of the punch pins and has a > bracket to pull them down at the end of the punch cycle. Solenodis > (quite small solenoids, almost like relay coils) move spring metal > strips (normally called 'interposers' in the manual) into said frame > under the punch pin so that the pin is then forced up and through the > tape as the frame rises. The Teletype BRPE, GNT34, many Data Dynamics > punchs, etc are of this design (to name the ones I can see without > getting up). A variation of the second version uses a lifting mechanism for the pins that has a "knee joint" in it. In the resting position that joint is slightly bent so the cam force merely bends it further, the way your leg does when you knee is flexed. The solenoid pushes the joint sideways, locking it, like a locked knee, and now the cam will drive the punch pin up. > Be warned that making any paper tape punch is going to be non-trivial. > Grinding and hardening the punch pins and making the die block for > them to run in is quite a difficult machining task. And that's needed > what ever drives them. True. At least the pins may be something you can buy: pin gauges are made to extreme precision in 0.001 inch increments and may well work. Or metal dowel pins, if they come that small. But that still leaves the die block. Would drilling and reaming be good enough? paul From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 1 10:31:21 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 May 2020 10:31:21 -0500 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> At 07:18 AM 5/1/2020, Hugh Pyle via cctalk wrote: >I've cut Mylar tape with a Glowforge laser. It cuts very nicely but the >alignment is a major hassle, plus you can only cut ~15" of tape which >doesn't go very far. Not worth the effort. If you were to build a custom >linear drive it might work. But also very slow. Hmm. You could have N fixed lasers at the spots of potential holes, and then a mechanism to move the whole assembly of them in the shape of a single hole, drawing them all at once. You could have one laser on that moved precisely along the hole row, and use the same sort of mechanical motion to draw a hole. How much laser do you need to cut paper, how much to cut mylar? Were there any paper tape devices that did not use the sprocket holes to move the tape? - John From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 1 10:39:53 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 16:39:53 +0100 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 4:32 PM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Were there any paper tape devices that did not use the sprocket holes > to move the tape? Yes, both punches and readers. The Facit 4070 (and the N4000) punch uses a capstan and pinch roller to move the tape. It's driven by a stepper motor. Of course it punches the sprocket holes. As I said the other day several high-quality optical tape readers (Trend, HP2748) feed the tape with a capstan and pinch roller. They do take a timing signal from the sprocket holes of course. -tony > > - John > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 1 10:44:00 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 16:44:00 +0100 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Be warned that making any paper tape punch is going to be non-trivial. > > Grinding and hardening the punch pins and making the die block for > > them to run in is quite a difficult machining task. And that's needed > > what ever drives them. > > True. At least the pins may be something you can buy: pin gauges are made to extreme precision in 0.001 inch increments and may well work. Or metal dowel pins, if I seem to remember that in some cases the pins are not flat on the business end. And of course they have to be hardened, but gauges are likely to be. they come that small. But that still leaves the die block. Would drilling and reaming be good enough? Probably. The pins need to work smoothly, but with no excessive gaps or they won't punch cleanly. Remember the die has to be made in 2 parts accurately aligned to leave a slot for the paper tape to run in. And of course (the relatively easy part) you need 9 holes in a straight line at 0.1" centres. You then need to harden the die without distorting it. It's not impossible (after all these things _were_ made once). But it's not the sort of thing you can do with just hand tools I think. -tony From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri May 1 10:48:15 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 11:48:15 -0400 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Wow, what a response! Really appreciate the docs and first-hand experience, this is super helpful. I'm also floored by the complexity of that Roytron punch! Looks like it contains around one hundred separate parts. I'm convinced the punch parts will have to be precision metal so while that's not quite "DIY" it might still be a reasonable bit to CNC, mill or water-jet cut. It also looks like that punch has an escapement mechanism of some sort? Seems like a simple way to keep regular spacing, but if course more parts to buy from McMaster Carr or whatever. Question: did all tapes have indexing holes separate from the drive sprocket holes? Also is there a source for tape with sprocket holes anymore? I also like the idea of using a LASER cutter and a rotating platform like they use to engrave drinking glasses. Add a light vacuum nozzle under the tape past the cutting surface to suck up the chads, and perhaps make the cutting surface wheel with of rows of thin plates as the cutting surface, similar to the thin honeycomb cutting beds of typical LASER cutters. I imagine it'd take an awfully long time to use a traditional core XY cutter versus a galvo-mirror cutter. I have some experience cutting planar items in LASER cutters but little experience beyond basic principles regarding machining/modeling/rotating LASER stuff. On Fri, May 1, 2020, 11:32 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 07:18 AM 5/1/2020, Hugh Pyle via cctalk wrote: > >I've cut Mylar tape with a Glowforge laser. It cuts very nicely but the > >alignment is a major hassle, plus you can only cut ~15" of tape which > >doesn't go very far. Not worth the effort. If you were to build a custom > >linear drive it might work. But also very slow. > > Hmm. You could have N fixed lasers at the spots of potential holes, > and then a mechanism to move the whole assembly of them in the shape of a > single hole, drawing them all at once. > > You could have one laser on that moved precisely along the hole row, > and use the same sort of mechanical motion to draw a hole. > > How much laser do you need to cut paper, how much to cut mylar? > > Were there any paper tape devices that did not use the sprocket holes > to move the tape? > > - John > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 1 11:05:05 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 17:05:05 +0100 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 4:48 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Wow, what a response! Really appreciate the docs and first-hand experience, > this is super helpful. I feel very greedy now. Looking arounds I have (not all working, but all could be got to work, it's things like drive belts I need to get ) 3 Facit 4070s and an N4000 A DEC PC04 Two Data Dynamics units (1130 and 1183) which are 8-level punches 3 Teletype BRPEs A Trend Paper Tape Station (GNT 34 punch and Trend HSR500 reader in a rack chassis) A couple of Teletype Model 33 ASR's A Friden Flexowriter with punch/reader The punch from a Flexowriter on a rack chassis with its own motor. I think there's a couple of bare-chassis solenoid-operated punches here too but I would have to hunt for them. And that's the 8 level ones. For 5 level (only) I have a Creed 444 teleprinter and a Booth-Willmott Model 44 Keypunch (totally mechanical between the keyboard and the 5 punch pins so not much use for computer interfacing). > > I'm also floored by the complexity of that Roytron punch! Looks like it > contains around one hundred separate parts. I'm convinced the punch parts > will have to be precision metal so while that's not quite "DIY" it might > still be a reasonable bit to CNC, mill or water-jet cut. > > It also looks like that punch has an escapement mechanism of some sort? > Seems like a simple way to keep regular spacing, but if course more parts > to buy from McMaster Carr or whatever. Some punches fed the tape with a sprocket wheel, one way to drive that is a suitably toothed ratchet wheel and drive pawl that moves it one tooth per punch cycle. As I said in another message, the Facit 4070 uses an accurately-machined (right diameter) capstan and pinch roller, the capstan moves the tape one chracter spacing for a certain number of steps (it _may_ be just one step) of the motor. I have another punch unit here which has the crank-and-interposer mechanism to punch the holes but has as sprocket with its own stepper motor to feed the tape. Different manufacturers did it in different ways. > > Question: did all tapes have indexing holes separate from the drive Eh? The sprocket holes _are_ the indexing holes, surely? > sprocket holes? Also is there a source for tape with sprocket holes anymore? Every punch I've seen (and own) can punch the sprocket holes on totally blank tape. Some insist on doing it (there's no way to punch a character without a sprocket hole), for others the sprocket punch is just another pin operated by the same type of mechanism as the data punches and you have to fire the solenoid at the right time if you want a sprocket hole. -tony From sales at elecplus.com Fri May 1 11:35:12 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 11:35:12 -0500 Subject: Lear Sieglar Terminal Message-ID: <000501d61fd6$7cbaaf00$76300d00$@com> I have in my shop a small blue old Lear Sieglar terminal. I does power on, but it gets a screen full of garbage. It is missing numerous keycaps. There are several cracks in the case around the keyboard. Asking $200; local pickup only. Pictures on request. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 1 11:50:43 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 12:50:43 -0400 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > On May 1, 2020, at 11:31 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > Were there any paper tape devices that did not use the sprocket holes > to move the tape? A lot of high speed optical readers use capstans and pinch rollers. But they still need the sprocket holes to be the source of the clock signal for latching the data. paul From hpyle at cabezal.com Fri May 1 12:20:12 2020 From: hpyle at cabezal.com (Hugh Pyle) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 13:20:12 -0400 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Tony, maybe your collection can help me answer a puzzle: which side is "top"? By my reading, for 8-level tape, - ANSI and other US standards have three data bits / index / then five data bits - ECMA has five/index/three... :) https://twitter.com/33asr/status/1138758004747177984 On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:05 PM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 4:48 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Wow, what a response! Really appreciate the docs and first-hand > experience, > > this is super helpful. > > I feel very greedy now. Looking arounds I have (not all working, but > all could be got to work, it's things like drive belts I need to get ) > > 3 Facit 4070s and an N4000 > A DEC PC04 > Two Data Dynamics units (1130 and 1183) which are 8-level punches > 3 Teletype BRPEs > A Trend Paper Tape Station (GNT 34 punch and Trend HSR500 reader in a > rack chassis) > A couple of Teletype Model 33 ASR's > A Friden Flexowriter with punch/reader > The punch from a Flexowriter on a rack chassis with its own motor. > > I think there's a couple of bare-chassis solenoid-operated punches > here too but I would have to hunt for them. > > And that's the 8 level ones. For 5 level (only) I have a Creed 444 > teleprinter and a Booth-Willmott Model 44 Keypunch (totally mechanical > between the keyboard and the 5 punch pins so not much use for computer > interfacing). > > > > > > > I'm also floored by the complexity of that Roytron punch! Looks like it > > contains around one hundred separate parts. I'm convinced the punch parts > > will have to be precision metal so while that's not quite "DIY" it might > > still be a reasonable bit to CNC, mill or water-jet cut. > > > > It also looks like that punch has an escapement mechanism of some sort? > > Seems like a simple way to keep regular spacing, but if course more parts > > to buy from McMaster Carr or whatever. > > Some punches fed the tape with a sprocket wheel, one way to drive that > is a suitably toothed ratchet wheel and drive pawl that moves it one > tooth per punch cycle. As I said in another message, the Facit 4070 > uses an accurately-machined (right diameter) capstan and pinch roller, > the capstan moves the tape one chracter spacing for a certain number > of steps (it _may_ be just one step) of the motor. I have another > punch unit here which has the crank-and-interposer mechanism to punch > the holes but has as sprocket with its own stepper motor to feed the > tape. Different manufacturers did it in different ways. > > > > > Question: did all tapes have indexing holes separate from the drive > > Eh? The sprocket holes _are_ the indexing holes, surely? > > > sprocket holes? Also is there a source for tape with sprocket holes > anymore? > > Every punch I've seen (and own) can punch the sprocket holes on > totally blank tape. Some insist on doing it (there's no way to punch a > character without a sprocket hole), for others the sprocket punch is > just another pin operated by the same type of mechanism as the data > punches and you have to fire the solenoid at the right time if you > want a sprocket hole. > > -tony > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 1 12:32:25 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 18:32:25 +0100 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 6:20 PM Hugh Pyle wrote: > > Tony, maybe your collection can help me answer a puzzle: which side is "top"? By my reading, for 8-level tape, > - ANSI and other US standards have three data bits / index / then five data bits > - ECMA has five/index/three... :) > https://twitter.com/33asr/status/1138758004747177984 As far as I know the 5-hole side is always the most significant 5 bits, the 3 hole side the least significant 3 bits. In other words the holes go : 76543S210 Where S is the sprocket hole and a digit is the bit number (bit 0 is the least significant bit). As to which way use the tape, with the tape feeding towards you, the sprocket hole is normally offset towards the right, that is the bits would read with the MSB on the left. I am not sure if that is universal though -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 1 12:47:23 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 13:47:23 -0400 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > On May 1, 2020, at 1:32 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 6:20 PM Hugh Pyle wrote: >> >> Tony, maybe your collection can help me answer a puzzle: which side is "top"? By my reading, for 8-level tape, >> - ANSI and other US standards have three data bits / index / then five data bits >> - ECMA has five/index/three... :) >> https://twitter.com/33asr/status/1138758004747177984 > > As far as I know the 5-hole side is always the most significant 5 > bits, the 3 hole side the least significant 3 bits. In other words the > holes go : > > 76543S210 > > Where S is the sprocket hole and a digit is the bit number (bit 0 is > the least significant bit). > > As to which way use the tape, with the tape feeding towards you, the > sprocket hole is normally offset towards the right, that is the bits > would read with the MSB on the left. I am not sure if that is > universal though > > -tony I suppose things get really confusing when dealing with 6 row tape (https://www.smecc.org/teletypes_in_typesetting.htm) paul From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri May 1 15:59:00 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 13:59:00 -0700 Subject: tape baking In-Reply-To: <0812cce0-36df-cd4b-3fbc-8ca5e47ba78e@bitsavers.org> References: <0812cce0-36df-cd4b-3fbc-8ca5e47ba78e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9EBB7535-D60F-4A14-93D0-EA26C917B0B3@gmail.com> Agreed. They sure are pressed in, then riveted in for good measure. You?d have to drill them out first. Not an easy modification. Marc > On Apr 30, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 4/29/20 10:01 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: >> Or replacing the posts with ones machined from Teflon or Delrin? > > The posts are staked in. You might be able to make tiny rollers to go over the pins > Their working diameter isn't super critical > From steven at malikoff.com Fri May 1 18:05:47 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 09:05:47 +1000 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hugh said > I've cut Mylar tape with a Glowforge laser. It cuts very nicely but the > alignment is a major hassle, plus you can only cut ~15" of tape which > doesn't go very far. Not worth the effort. If you were to build a custom > linear drive it might work. But also very slow. That's very interesting. I had thought the smaller home shop lasers were generally for cutting perspex and thin plywood, rather than mylar sheet. Can your laser software import a DXF? If so I can send you a DXF of a test tape (in 15" segments) if you are interested, I would very much like to see the result. Steve. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 1 18:19:04 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 16:19:04 -0700 Subject: tape baking In-Reply-To: <9EBB7535-D60F-4A14-93D0-EA26C917B0B3@gmail.com> References: <0812cce0-36df-cd4b-3fbc-8ca5e47ba78e@bitsavers.org> <9EBB7535-D60F-4A14-93D0-EA26C917B0B3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3c98ab6a-0705-2714-2b09-30f5e9a6bc49@sydex.com> On 5/1/20 1:59 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Agreed. They sure are pressed in, then riveted in for good measure. You?d have to drill them out first. Not an easy modification. > Marc PTFE 2mm ID 3mm OD tubing is a standard size. That might fit. --Chuck From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri May 1 18:50:54 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 16:50:54 -0700 Subject: tape baking In-Reply-To: <3c98ab6a-0705-2714-2b09-30f5e9a6bc49@sydex.com> References: <0812cce0-36df-cd4b-3fbc-8ca5e47ba78e@bitsavers.org> <9EBB7535-D60F-4A14-93D0-EA26C917B0B3@gmail.com> <3c98ab6a-0705-2714-2b09-30f5e9a6bc49@sydex.com> Message-ID: <37790ff0-28f3-0111-134f-c915eeb64a62@snowmoose.com> On 5/1/20 4:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/1/20 1:59 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: >> Agreed. They sure are pressed in, then riveted in for good measure. You?d have to drill them out first. Not an easy modification. >> Marc > > PTFE 2mm ID 3mm OD tubing is a standard size. That might fit. > > --Chuck All of the QIC-24 cartridges sitting next to me right now have posts that are machined with 1-2mm deep tape guides. I don't see how to install tubing over the posts and have the guides still do their job. As I noted, I have tried isopropyl alcohol to clean them off but they still stick. Is this something that baking will help with? Maybe using acetone instead of alcohol to wipe the posts down as well? alan From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 1 20:40:45 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 18:40:45 -0700 Subject: tape baking In-Reply-To: <37790ff0-28f3-0111-134f-c915eeb64a62@snowmoose.com> References: <0812cce0-36df-cd4b-3fbc-8ca5e47ba78e@bitsavers.org> <9EBB7535-D60F-4A14-93D0-EA26C917B0B3@gmail.com> <3c98ab6a-0705-2714-2b09-30f5e9a6bc49@sydex.com> <37790ff0-28f3-0111-134f-c915eeb64a62@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <59dc812f-e866-d99f-a1d9-1ffdf90a7cf6@sydex.com> On 5/1/20 4:50 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > All of the QIC-24 cartridges sitting next to me right now have posts > that are machined with 1-2mm deep tape guides. I don't see how to > install tubing over the posts and have the guides still do their job. > > As I noted, I have tried isopropyl alcohol to clean them off but they > still stick. Is this something that baking will help with? Maybe using > acetone instead of alcohol to wipe the posts down as well? If you wipe with alcohol, can you still see crud on the posts? If so, you'll need something stronger. Acetone might do, or MEK. But if alcohol cleans the posts, that's not the problem. You could try backing, but I don't think that will work either if the problem is in the binder. --Chuck From tingox at gmail.com Sat May 2 06:14:43 2020 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 13:14:43 +0200 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 7:32 PM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > As far as I know the 5-hole side is always the most significant 5 > bits, the 3 hole side the least significant 3 bits. In other words the > holes go : > > 76543S210 > > Where S is the sprocket hole and a digit is the bit number (bit 0 is > the least significant bit). > > As to which way use the tape, with the tape feeding towards you, the > sprocket hole is normally offset towards the right, that is the bits > would read with the MSB on the left. I am not sure if that is > universal though > FWIW, the ECMA standard is here https://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/ (found via Wikipedia) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Sat May 2 06:49:21 2020 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (davidkcollins2 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 21:49:21 +1000 Subject: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes In-Reply-To: <4EBB6CDF-D1A3-4101-BD77-DF882236AE09@gmail.com> References: <4EBB6CDF-D1A3-4101-BD77-DF882236AE09@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007401d62077$ba262f30$2e728d90$@gmail.com> I've pulled together details of the controller used with an HP2748 paper tape reader to dump a bunch of tapes from the HP Computer Museum's collection with the help of J. David Bryan. The details are at this link.. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KaJkVgYzPusJN9tLf4IaSIa104fvLhUs The unit and Arduino code are both pretty rough and ready and I'm sure can be improved - but they served their purpose! Hope it is of use to others... Now to get those new tape files published... David Collins www.hpmuseum.net -----Original Message----- From: David Collins Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2020 7:34 AM To: J. David Bryan ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes Further to Dave?s post below, I?m happy to share the Arduino code and schematic if anyone has a suitable reader and wants to try it. It was indeed designed to interface to the HP2748 but is pretty simple and could be adapted to any similar reader. David Collins Sent from my iPad > On 29 Apr 2020, at 6:33 am, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote: > > ?On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 17:56, Tony Duell via cctech wrote: > >> The HP2748 is a common-ish example of this type of un[i]t. > > David Collins of the HP Computer Museum and I just recently completed > reading some 200+ paper tapes from the museum collection. He used a > 2748 coupled with a custom Arduino-based interface to produce > plain-text files containing an octal representation of the tape bytes. > We passed these through a small program to convert them to binary > files and a second program to verify checksums of those tapes > containing relocatable or absolute binary object data. The resulting > files can be used as is with the HP 2100 SIMH simulator or could be > punched back into physical paper tapes if desired. > > -- Dave > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat May 2 08:21:40 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 09:21:40 -0400 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive Message-ID: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> Hi, during my move, I think I lost my tape drive, which was attached to my at&t unix pc (68000 based). Anybody knows of the top of their head, if I could read the tapes on any other machine? Was it anything "standard", or did they do their own at at&t? Cheers & thanks! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 2 09:02:06 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 14:02:06 +0000 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: <20200501153247.8219D4E786@mx2.ezwind.net> , Message-ID: If you go with punch pins, standard drill rod is not hard to get. It often comes in materials that can be easily heat hardened. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 4:14 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 7:32 PM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > As far as I know the 5-hole side is always the most significant 5 > bits, the 3 hole side the least significant 3 bits. In other words the > holes go : > > 76543S210 > > Where S is the sprocket hole and a digit is the bit number (bit 0 is > the least significant bit). > > As to which way use the tape, with the tape feeding towards you, the > sprocket hole is normally offset towards the right, that is the bits > would read with the MSB on the left. I am not sure if that is > universal though > FWIW, the ECMA standard is here https://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/ (found via Wikipedia) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 2 10:32:31 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 08:32:31 -0700 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive In-Reply-To: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> References: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 5/2/20 6:21 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > during my move, I think I lost my tape drive, which was attached to my > at&t unix pc (68000 based). > Anybody knows of the top of their head, if I could read the tapes on any > other machine? Was it anything "standard", or did they do their own at at&t? Depends which version of the 3B2 you have. See: http://www.unixwiz.net/3b2/tapedrives.html --Chuck From pat at vax11.net Sat May 2 10:52:35 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 11:52:35 -0400 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2020, 11:32 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/2/20 6:21 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > during my move, I think I lost my tape drive, which was attached to my > > at&t unix pc (68000 based). > > Anybody knows of the top of their head, if I could read the tapes on any > > other machine? Was it anything "standard", or did they do their own at > at&t? > > Depends which version of the 3B2 you have. > I think a UNIX PC is a 3B1, not a 3B2. Patrick Finnegan > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 2 11:14:53 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 02 May 2020 11:14:53 -0500 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive In-Reply-To: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> References: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <5EAD9C7D.3080906@pico-systems.com> On 05/02/2020 08:21 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > during my move, I think I lost my tape drive, which was attached to my > at&t unix pc (68000 based). > Anybody knows of the top of their head, if I could read the tapes on any > other machine? Was it anything "standard", or did they do their own at at&t? > > Cheers & thanks! > A lot of AT&T systems used a CDC Keystone drive, if you are talking about 1/2" tape reels. The Laser Magnetic Storage 92181 is an 800/1600 streaming drive, the 92185 is a 1600/6250 drive. These could be had with formatted Pertec Interface or SCSI. There were lots of these drives made. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 2 11:53:45 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 09:53:45 -0700 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 5/2/20 8:52 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > I think a UNIX PC is a 3B1, not a 3B2. > Yes, the 7300/3B1 was officially the "Unix PC". My point was that the 3B2 notes say that particular system used the Cipher 525 floppytape and was 23 MB capacity. This agrees with what I know about the 7300 tape drive--it required one to format a tape and was also 23 MB capacity. I think it's reasonable to suppose that the 7300 also used the Cipher floppytape drive. I was speculating that it might also have been possible to interface to a SCSI or QIC-02 tape drive. Jon, I've "lost" my car in shopping mall parking lots, but how does one "lose" a CDC Keystone drive? :) --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Sat May 2 12:16:14 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 13:16:14 -0400 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <3dd76089-333f-090a-7733-be5c73091b4b@e-bbes.com> On 2020-05-02 11:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/2/20 6:21 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: >> Hi, >> during my move, I think I lost my tape drive, which was attached to my >> at&t unix pc (68000 based). >> Anybody knows of the top of their head, if I could read the tapes on any >> other machine? Was it anything "standard", or did they do their own at at&t? > > Depends which version of the 3B2 you have. Sorry, I should have been a "little" more precise. the 3b1, and the tapes look like QIC cartriges ... From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat May 2 12:22:02 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 10:22:02 -0700 Subject: "scsi bus continuously busy" Message-ID: Courtesy of a Raspberry Pi serving as the ND server, I am now able to load SunOS 3.5 over the network onto my 3/260 and it is now coming up into the OS. I am now seeing this error: >sc0 at vme24d16 200000 vec 0x40 >sd0 at sc0 slave 0 >si0: sc_cmd: scsi bus continuously busy >sc0: resetting scsi bus >sd1 at sc0 slave 1 >si0: sc_cmd: scsi bus continuously busy >sc0: resetting scsi bus The SCSI controller is the "Sun 2" SCSI card. I saw some corrosion-ish crap on the board and cleaned it off. It is SCSI, so, of course, I played with termination. No change in behavior. Is this likely to be a controller board problem or a device problem? Are these boards picky about SCSI devices? Any other suggestions? alan From imp at bsdimp.com Sat May 2 12:44:16 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 11:44:16 -0600 Subject: "scsi bus continuously busy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:22 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Courtesy of a Raspberry Pi serving as the ND server, I am now able to > load SunOS 3.5 over the network onto my 3/260 and it is now coming up > into the OS. I am now seeing this error: > > >sc0 at vme24d16 200000 vec 0x40 > >sd0 at sc0 slave 0 > >si0: sc_cmd: scsi bus continuously busy > >sc0: resetting scsi bus > >sd1 at sc0 slave 1 > >si0: sc_cmd: scsi bus continuously busy > >sc0: resetting scsi bus > > The SCSI controller is the "Sun 2" SCSI card. I saw some corrosion-ish > crap on the board and cleaned it off. It is SCSI, so, of course, I > played with termination. No change in behavior. > > Is this likely to be a controller board problem or a device problem? > > Are these boards picky about SCSI devices? > > *Any other suggestions?* This comes from code: /* wait for scsi bus to become free */ for (j = 0; j < SI_WAIT_COUNT/4; j++) { if ((SBC_RD.cbsr & SBC_CBSR_BSY) == 0) goto SI_ARB_SEL_FREE; ... } printf("si%d: si_arb_sel: scsi bus continuously busy\n", SINUM(c)); So the busy bit is stuck on and there's no reselect that happens. The chip in question is NCR 5380 SBC. This is a phase issue on the bus. After 10s the busy bit in this controller didn't clear. I didn't look it up, but I'll wager that's the BSY bit on the bus not clearing. This suggests an electrical issue (maybe termination, maybe not, so not surprised it didn't help since this is a signal line, not a data line). Does this happen with no devices on the bus? Warner From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat May 2 12:50:39 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 10:50:39 -0700 Subject: "scsi bus continuously busy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <716389bb-bd66-d144-5ea8-2aa59fc8ecb5@snowmoose.com> On 5/2/20 10:44 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:22 AM Alan Perry via cctalk > > wrote: > > Courtesy of a Raspberry Pi serving as the ND server, I am now able to > load SunOS 3.5 over the network onto my 3/260 and it is now coming up > into the OS. I am now seeing this error: > > ?>sc0 at vme24d16 200000 vec 0x40 > ?>sd0 at sc0 slave 0 > ?>si0:? sc_cmd:? scsi bus continuously busy > ?>sc0:? resetting scsi bus > ?>sd1 at sc0 slave 1 > ?>si0:? sc_cmd:? scsi bus continuously busy > ?>sc0:? resetting scsi bus > > The SCSI controller is the "Sun 2" SCSI card. I saw some corrosion-ish > crap on the board and cleaned it off. It is SCSI, so, of course, I > played with termination. No change in behavior. > > Is this likely to be a controller board problem or a device problem? > > Are these boards picky about SCSI devices? > > _Any other suggestions?_ > > > This comes from code: > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? /* wait for scsi bus to become free */ > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? for (j = 0; j < SI_WAIT_COUNT/4; j++) { > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? if ((SBC_RD.cbsr & SBC_CBSR_BSY) == 0) > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? goto SI_ARB_SEL_FREE; > ... > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? } > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? printf("si%d: ?si_arb_sel: scsi bus continuously busy\n", > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? SINUM(c)); > > So the busy bit is stuck on and there's no reselect that happens. The > chip in question is?NCR 5380 SBC. This is a phase issue on the bus. > After 10s the busy bit in this controller didn't clear. I didn't look it > up, but I'll wager that's the BSY?bit on the bus not clearing. This > suggests an electrical issue (maybe termination, maybe not, so not > surprised it?didn't help since this is a signal line, not a data line). > > Does this happen with no devices on the bus? sc0 at vme24d16 200000 vec 0x40 sd0 at sc0 slave 0 sd1 at sc0 slave 1 sd2 at sc0 slave 8 st0 at sc0 slave 32 st1 at sc0 slave 40 zs0 at obio 20000 pri 3 zs1 at obio 0 pri 3 ie0 at obio c0000 pri 3 bwtwo0 at obmem ff000000 pri 4 bwtwo0: resolution 1152 x 900 sd0: scsi bus failure sc0: sd0, unit offline sd0: scsi bus failure sc0: sd0, unit offline root on nd0 > > Warner From ryan at diskfutility.com Sat May 2 14:50:53 2020 From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 14:50:53 -0500 Subject: "scsi bus continuously busy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EED318C-C188-4382-8AF4-ECC1DA126A97@diskfutility.com> On May 2, 2020, at 12:22 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Are these boards picky about SCSI devices? I believe that the Sun-2 SCSI card only supports devices that support "Unit Attention". From pb at pbcl.net Sat May 2 15:00:54 2020 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 22:00:54 +0200 Subject: "scsi bus continuously busy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200502200054.GA5376@pbcl.net> On Sat, May 02, 2020 at 10:22:02AM -0700, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > >sc0 at vme24d16 200000 vec 0x40 > >sd0 at sc0 slave 0 > >si0: sc_cmd: scsi bus continuously busy > >sc0: resetting scsi bus > >sd1 at sc0 slave 1 Not that I know these particular devices, but is it at all possible one of the cables is in backwards? That sounds like the kind of behaviour you get with 50-pin SCSI if an IDC connector is upside down. But otherwise, this message presumably means the host controller is sensing BSY# asserted when it didn't expect it. So the first order of business would be to find out whether BSY# on the bus is genuinely low. If not, it must be a controller fault. If yes, disconnect the devices one at a time and see if the problem goes away. If it's still stuck low with no devices attached, the issue is either in the controller or termination. p. From hpyle at cabezal.com Sat May 2 15:13:04 2020 From: hpyle at cabezal.com (Hugh Pyle) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 16:13:04 -0400 Subject: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve! I don't think Glowforge does DXF natively, but it should be easy enough to convert to SVG using e.g. Inkscape. I have a small paper-tape-pattern Python app that generates svg for this purpose - very much like your ptap2dxf, but less sophisticated :) https://github.com/hughpyle/ASR33/blob/master/bin/patterns/README.md It would be easier to cut from sheet (with a border line) than to cut 1" tape. Then alignment wouldn't be at all critical. Another material that works well is subway tile, although I don't have a reader for that. Unless someone has already built a cellphone app that reads 8-level tape... https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hughpyle/ASR33/master/pix/tape_subway_tile.jpg Unfortunately I don't have access to the cutter right now, it's under lockdown, so although I'd like to try more fun and games with it, they'll have to wait... On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 7:06 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hugh said > > I've cut Mylar tape with a Glowforge laser. It cuts very nicely but the > > alignment is a major hassle, plus you can only cut ~15" of tape which > > doesn't go very far. Not worth the effort. If you were to build a > custom > > linear drive it might work. But also very slow. > > That's very interesting. I had thought the smaller home shop lasers were > generally > for cutting perspex and thin plywood, rather than mylar sheet. Can your > laser > software import a DXF? If so I can send you a DXF of a test tape (in 15" > segments) > if you are interested, I would very much like to see the result. > > Steve. > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat May 2 09:35:12 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 10:35:12 -0400 Subject: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes In-Reply-To: <007401d62077$ba262f30$2e728d90$@gmail.com> References: <4EBB6CDF-D1A3-4101-BD77-DF882236AE09@gmail.com> <007401d62077$ba262f30$2e728d90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2020, 7:49 AM David Collins via cctech wrote: > I've pulled together details of the controller used with an HP2748 paper > tape reader to dump a bunch of tapes from the HP Computer Museum's > collection with the help of J. David Bryan. > > The details are at this link.. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KaJkVgYzPusJN9tLf4IaSIa104fvLhUs > > The unit and Arduino code are both pretty rough and ready and I'm sure can > be improved - but they served their purpose! > > Hope it is of use to others... > > Now to get those new tape files published... > > David Collins > www.hpmuseum.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Collins > Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2020 7:34 AM > To: J. David Bryan ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes > > Further to Dave?s post below, I?m happy to share the Arduino code and > schematic if anyone has a suitable reader and wants to try it. It was > indeed designed to interface to the HP2748 but is pretty simple and could > be adapted to any similar reader. > > David Collins > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 29 Apr 2020, at 6:33 am, J. David Bryan via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 17:56, Tony Duell via cctech wrote: > > > >> The HP2748 is a common-ish example of this type of un[i]t. > > > > David Collins of the HP Computer Museum and I just recently completed > > reading some 200+ paper tapes from the museum collection. He used a > > 2748 coupled with a custom Arduino-based interface to produce > > plain-text files containing an octal representation of the tape bytes. > > We passed these through a small program to convert them to binary > > files and a second program to verify checksums of those tapes > > containing relocatable or absolute binary object data. The resulting > > files can be used as is with the HP 2100 SIMH simulator or could be > > punched back into physical paper tapes if desired. > > > > -- Dave > > > I have the s100 board Jon Chapman (glitch) created to interface with his HP 2100 reader. Not sure if anyone here woukd have use for it. Anyone use the Decitek 2910 or HS1000 portsble model (you can buy from decitek.com) for archiving 1 inch papertapes? The 2910's are available new, they come with older windows/ DOS software, memory buffer, rs232 port, slows to 110b. For the volume of tapes I have, getting something new is appealing for reliabikity-sake. Bill > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 2 10:25:44 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 15:25:44 +0000 Subject: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4EBB6CDF-D1A3-4101-BD77-DF882236AE09@gmail.com> <007401d62077$ba262f30$2e728d90$@gmail.com>, Message-ID: I've got a rebadged Remex someplace but it is intended for fan fold. It takes manual watching to deal with spooled tapes. It is a high speed optical with parallel. On spooled stuff, I'd set it up on a table with it hanging over the edge a little. Then I'd have a piece of scrap plywood as a separator for input and output piles. Being high speed, it can make a real mess if the output gets tangles with the input. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctech Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 7:35 AM To: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes On Sat, May 2, 2020, 7:49 AM David Collins via cctech wrote: > I've pulled together details of the controller used with an HP2748 paper > tape reader to dump a bunch of tapes from the HP Computer Museum's > collection with the help of J. David Bryan. > > The details are at this link.. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KaJkVgYzPusJN9tLf4IaSIa104fvLhUs > > The unit and Arduino code are both pretty rough and ready and I'm sure can > be improved - but they served their purpose! > > Hope it is of use to others... > > Now to get those new tape files published... > > David Collins > www.hpmuseum.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Collins > Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2020 7:34 AM > To: J. David Bryan ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes > > Further to Dave?s post below, I?m happy to share the Arduino code and > schematic if anyone has a suitable reader and wants to try it. It was > indeed designed to interface to the HP2748 but is pretty simple and could > be adapted to any similar reader. > > David Collins > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 29 Apr 2020, at 6:33 am, J. David Bryan via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 17:56, Tony Duell via cctech wrote: > > > >> The HP2748 is a common-ish example of this type of un[i]t. > > > > David Collins of the HP Computer Museum and I just recently completed > > reading some 200+ paper tapes from the museum collection. He used a > > 2748 coupled with a custom Arduino-based interface to produce > > plain-text files containing an octal representation of the tape bytes. > > We passed these through a small program to convert them to binary > > files and a second program to verify checksums of those tapes > > containing relocatable or absolute binary object data. The resulting > > files can be used as is with the HP 2100 SIMH simulator or could be > > punched back into physical paper tapes if desired. > > > > -- Dave > > > I have the s100 board Jon Chapman (glitch) created to interface with his HP 2100 reader. Not sure if anyone here woukd have use for it. Anyone use the Decitek 2910 or HS1000 portsble model (you can buy from decitek.com) for archiving 1 inch papertapes? The 2910's are available new, they come with older windows/ DOS software, memory buffer, rs232 port, slows to 110b. For the volume of tapes I have, getting something new is appealing for reliabikity-sake. Bill > From 821 at 128.ca Sat May 2 19:10:25 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 00:10:25 +0000 Subject: Pdp cpus Message-ID: Interesting stuff https://github.com/1801BM1/cpu11 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 3 05:23:01 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 03:23:01 -0700 Subject: Pdp cpus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7192311c-f0ea-f5b6-0f47-5f8a90fd70e8@bitsavers.org> On 5/2/20 5:10 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > > Interesting stuff > > https://github.com/1801BM1/cpu11 > > Eric Smith's work on the WD CP1600 chipset's various microcode https://github.com/brouhaha/lsi11uc https://github.com/brouhaha/cp16sim https://github.com/brouhaha/wd9000uc https://github.com/brouhaha/cp16dis From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun May 3 10:22:02 2020 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 16:22:02 +0100 Subject: Looking for old Suns References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> Hi, Every now and again I have a bit of time to mess with old computers - and usually for whatever reason - its Sun machines for me. I?ve had loads over the years, played with them and passed them on. Does anyone have anything old Sun wise available in the UK? I?d love to find an old VME bus machine but anything old or interesting. I can travel to pick stuff up etc, social distancing observed of course :D Anyway - PM me if you have anything that?s restorable :) Cheers Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 3 16:02:50 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 14:02:50 -0700 Subject: Guy on vcfed offering old IBM lamps Message-ID: He says "free for shipping". http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?74590-FS-new-(OEM)-IBM-computer-50s-60s-blinken-light-console-bulbs-1401-360 I couldn[t get him to post a photo. He says he also has a bunch of old transistors from the Endicott plant. FWIW, Chuck From 821 at 128.ca Sun May 3 17:15:26 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 22:15:26 +0000 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com>, <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Please include me in that. Happy to add a spare space or 3 to my retro collection. Mainland Europe based fire shipping. Thanks ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of silvercreekvalley via cctalk Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 5:22:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for old Suns Hi, Every now and again I have a bit of time to mess with old computers - and usually for whatever reason - its Sun machines for me. I?ve had loads over the years, played with them and passed them on. Does anyone have anything old Sun wise available in the UK? I?d love to find an old VME bus machine but anything old or interesting. I can travel to pick stuff up etc, social distancing observed of course :D Anyway - PM me if you have anything that?s restorable :) Cheers Ian From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon May 4 07:02:48 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 14:02:48 +0200 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com> <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: s?n 2020-05-03 klockan 16:22 +0100 skrev silvercreekvalley via cctalk: > Hi, > > Every now and again I have a bit of time to mess with old computers - > and usually for whatever reason - its Sun machines for me. > > I?ve had loads over the years, played with them and passed them on. > > Does anyone have anything old Sun wise available in the UK? I?d love > to find an old VME bus machine but anything old or interesting. I can > travel > to pick stuff up etc, social distancing observed of course :D > A reseller in Sweden earlier in this year had an rebadged 3/60. gg serverparts. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:17:50 2020 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 09:17:50 -0400 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive In-Reply-To: <3dd76089-333f-090a-7733-be5c73091b4b@e-bbes.com> References: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> <3dd76089-333f-090a-7733-be5c73091b4b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: The tape interface I have for my UNIX PC is indeed a floppy tape interface, says "FTAPE" near the connector on the outside. I haven't paired a drive with it yet. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 1:16 PM emanuel stiebler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2020-05-02 11:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/2/20 6:21 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi, > >> during my move, I think I lost my tape drive, which was attached to my > >> at&t unix pc (68000 based). > >> Anybody knows of the top of their head, if I could read the tapes on any > >> other machine? Was it anything "standard", or did they do their own at > at&t? > > > > Depends which version of the 3B2 you have. > > Sorry, I should have been a "little" more precise. > the 3b1, and the tapes look like QIC cartriges ... > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 4 10:51:56 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 08:51:56 -0700 Subject: At&T Unix PC, Tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4fb1ce5f-7d85-b691-9d16-acd02752536b@e-bbes.com> <3dd76089-333f-090a-7733-be5c73091b4b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <85187a07-7592-0f58-a0fa-63c2e27b9e6b@sydex.com> On 5/4/20 6:17 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > The tape interface I have for my UNIX PC is indeed a floppy tape interface, > says "FTAPE" near the connector on the outside. I haven't paired a drive > with it yet. Easy enough to tell without opening things up. The Cipher 525 is a full-height drive; cartridges are inserted and locked in by a lever located just below (or above) the tape slot, that, when a cart is loaded obstructs the tape cart access by requiring a quarter-turn from being horizontal to vertical. It's the only floppytape drive that I'm aware of that works this way. --Chuck From salikmrafiq at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:41:08 2020 From: salikmrafiq at gmail.com (Salik Rafiq) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 18:41:08 +0000 Subject: Looking for old Suns Message-ID: Have a chat with Peter Stokes peter at ashlyn.co.uk he has a number of older machines and some older SPARC station Salik From 821 at 128.ca Mon May 4 13:41:53 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 18:41:53 +0000 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA553FC-D034-4242-A405-568C6FD8770D@128.ca> Thanks very much.. cheers Kevin > On 4 May 2020, at 20:41, Salik Rafiq via cctalk wrote: > > Have a chat with Peter Stokes peter at ashlyn.co.uk he has a number of older machines and some older SPARC station > > Salik From crockett.martin at gmail.com Mon May 4 22:10:16 2020 From: crockett.martin at gmail.com (Martin Crockett) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 12:40:16 +0930 Subject: Fwd: Hopefully on topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I now have just acquired a VT-100 and am in the process of checking it out. I noticed there is a capacitor that has vaporized, but I cant determine what value it is. I have the DEC VT-100 maintenance guide but it is very blurry in the relevant area. I cant even read the board designation. This is the area of the circuit, I can trace the 2 Zener diodes on the -23V rail, to one end of the cap, the other end seems to go to ground. The obvious culprit is C6, but that doesn't match the mud map of the board, as in C1x. https://imgur.com/a/tm8mn8b This is the capacitor in question. It looks like C1x where x is undetermined. I think it was a ceramic monolithic capacitor, it seems to be different to any other caps on the board, i.e. slightly larger and a different colour blue. When I look at this hires photos on Google images, it is the blue capacitor circled below Does anyone have a VT-100 and mind checking what the value of this capacitor is please? Ideally value and voltage or even just the nomenclature written on it, I can work out the value and voltage from that. Many thanks and Cheers, Martin... From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue May 5 02:08:22 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 00:08:22 -0700 Subject: Hopefully on topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-May-04, at 8:10 PM, Martin Crockett via cctalk wrote: > .. > I noticed there is a capacitor that has vaporized, but I cant determine > what value it is. > > I have the DEC VT-100 maintenance guide but it is very blurry in the > relevant area. > > I cant even read the board designation. > > This is the area of the circuit, I can trace the 2 Zener diodes on the -23V > rail, to one end of the cap, the other end seems to go to ground. The > obvious culprit is C6, but that doesn't match the mud map of the board, as > in C1x. > https://imgur.com/a/tm8mn8b > > This is the capacitor in question. > > It looks like C1x where x is undetermined. > > I think it was a ceramic monolithic capacitor, it seems to be different to > any other caps on the board, i.e. slightly larger and a different colour > blue. When I look at this hires photos on Google images, it is the blue > capacitor circled below > > Does anyone have a VT-100 and mind checking what the value of this > capacitor is please? > Ideally value and voltage or even just the nomenclature written on it, I > can work out the value and voltage from that. You sure that isn't C14, connected to pin 2 of E24, Vgg PS pin on the non-volatile RAM? (bitsavers schematic pdf pg 15 / "VT100 BASIC VIDEO Sheet 2 of 6" / upper middle of page). See also the board pics on bitsavers. 0.22uF, 50V CER From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue May 5 05:03:48 2020 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:03:48 +0100 Subject: Looking for old Suns References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin/Stefan/Salik Thanks for the replies much appreciated. Looks like there might be a few of these systems around, so will see if I can pick one up. Willing to pay a reasonable fee for a system of course. Thanks Ian From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 5 08:15:14 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:15:14 -0500 Subject: Hopefully on topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85fbbc5c-de13-e5ea-448e-fe875afbd766@charter.net> On 5/5/2020 2:08 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-May-04, at 8:10 PM, Martin Crockett via cctalk wrote: >> .. >> I noticed there is a capacitor that has vaporized, but I cant determine >> what value it is. >> >> I have the DEC VT-100 maintenance guide but it is very blurry in the >> relevant area. >> >> I cant even read the board designation. >> >> This is the area of the circuit, I can trace the 2 Zener diodes on the -23V >> rail, to one end of the cap, the other end seems to go to ground. The >> obvious culprit is C6, but that doesn't match the mud map of the board, as >> in C1x. >> https://imgur.com/a/tm8mn8b >> >> This is the capacitor in question. >> >> It looks like C1x where x is undetermined. >> >> I think it was a ceramic monolithic capacitor, it seems to be different to >> any other caps on the board, i.e. slightly larger and a different colour >> blue. When I look at this hires photos on Google images, it is the blue >> capacitor circled below >> >> Does anyone have a VT-100 and mind checking what the value of this >> capacitor is please? >> Ideally value and voltage or even just the nomenclature written on it, I >> can work out the value and voltage from that. > > > > You sure that isn't C14, connected to pin 2 of E24, Vgg PS pin on the non-volatile RAM? > (bitsavers schematic pdf pg 15 / "VT100 BASIC VIDEO Sheet 2 of 6" / upper middle of page). > See also the board pics on bitsavers. > > 0.22uF, 50V CER > This same question with the same subject appeared on the S100 computers mailing list. I replied there with basically the same conclusion, based on my own schematic (and also with advice that this is a better place to ask.). Maybe he has a spam filter issue, and so didn't get the reply? "Yeah, that looks like it is the printset from bitsavers. Even smudged it looked like C14 to me, and I confirmed it *IS* C14 on my very clear but very slightly older printset: VT100-0-1 Rev. C July, 1978. (Could probably figure it out by elimination, too. C6 is on the edge of the board opposite the RS232 connector in both printsets. One could look through the rest of the parts for the other C1x capacitors to eliminate those as possibilities as well. My printset (Rev W schematic for this board) does NOT show the C59 that is on the bitsavers pritnset (later, rev. AA), next to C14, and the schematic in that area varies as well. But its proximity to C59 pretty much seals the deal (see below regarding the bitsavers schematic.) C14 is 0.22uf, 50 V (+80%-20%), on both my printset and the bitsavers printset. To verify it is C14 on your board: On *my* schematic (Rev W), one side goes to +12V, the other to E24 (NVRAM) pin 2, R67 (22K), one side of W7 (which goes to -23V) and the collector of Q6 (2N3904) On the *bitsavers* schematic (later, Rev AA), one side goes to ground (instead of +12V), but the rest it the same as above. Your board should have an indication of which circuit schematic it is. So, its a bypass cap for the NVRAM. On older boards it bypasses to +12V, and on newer boards it bypasses to ground, and C59 bypasses +12V to ground as well, which seems like a sensible change. ;') For future reference, when asking about DEC stuff, the classic computer mailing list might get you an answer quicker. ;) " JRJ From crockett.martin at gmail.com Tue May 5 08:23:18 2020 From: crockett.martin at gmail.com (Martin Crockett) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 22:53:18 +0930 Subject: Hopefully on topic In-Reply-To: <85fbbc5c-de13-e5ea-448e-fe875afbd766@charter.net> References: <85fbbc5c-de13-e5ea-448e-fe875afbd766@charter.net> Message-ID: Hi all, I apologise if I posted this request in the wrong forum, but I'm new to this; not electronics, I've got over 30 years bench experience, but asking for help :-) The answer you have given me is perfect. It confirms my suspicions that it is C14. Now I have a value, I'll check it out in the morning. I appreciate your assistance. Many thanks and Cheers, Martin Sent from my Nokia 6110 On Tue, 5 May 2020, 22:45 Jay Jaeger, wrote: > On 5/5/2020 2:08 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2020-May-04, at 8:10 PM, Martin Crockett via cctalk wrote: > >> .. > >> I noticed there is a capacitor that has vaporized, but I cant determine > >> what value it is. > >> > >> I have the DEC VT-100 maintenance guide but it is very blurry in the > >> relevant area. > >> > >> I cant even read the board designation. > >> > >> This is the area of the circuit, I can trace the 2 Zener diodes on the > -23V > >> rail, to one end of the cap, the other end seems to go to ground. The > >> obvious culprit is C6, but that doesn't match the mud map of the board, > as > >> in C1x. > >> https://imgur.com/a/tm8mn8b > >> > >> This is the capacitor in question. > >> > >> It looks like C1x where x is undetermined. > >> > >> I think it was a ceramic monolithic capacitor, it seems to be different > to > >> any other caps on the board, i.e. slightly larger and a different colour > >> blue. When I look at this hires photos on Google images, it is the blue > >> capacitor circled below > >> > >> Does anyone have a VT-100 and mind checking what the value of this > >> capacitor is please? > >> Ideally value and voltage or even just the nomenclature written on it, I > >> can work out the value and voltage from that. > > > > > > > > You sure that isn't C14, connected to pin 2 of E24, Vgg PS pin on the > non-volatile RAM? > > (bitsavers schematic pdf pg 15 / "VT100 BASIC VIDEO Sheet 2 of 6" / > upper middle of page). > > See also the board pics on bitsavers. > > > > 0.22uF, 50V CER > > > > This same question with the same subject appeared on the S100 computers > mailing list. I replied there with basically the same conclusion, based > on my own schematic (and also with advice that this is a better place to > ask.). Maybe he has a spam filter issue, and so didn't get the reply? > > "Yeah, that looks like it is the printset from bitsavers. Even smudged > it looked like C14 to me, and I confirmed it *IS* C14 on my very clear > but very slightly older printset: VT100-0-1 Rev. C July, 1978. (Could > probably figure it out by elimination, too. C6 is on the edge of the > board opposite the RS232 connector in both printsets. One could look > through the rest of the parts for the other C1x capacitors to eliminate > those as possibilities as well. > > My printset (Rev W schematic for this board) does NOT show the C59 that > is on the bitsavers pritnset (later, rev. AA), next to C14, and the > schematic in that area varies as well. But its proximity to C59 pretty > much seals the deal (see below regarding the bitsavers schematic.) > > C14 is 0.22uf, 50 V (+80%-20%), on both my printset and the bitsavers > printset. > > To verify it is C14 on your board: > > On *my* schematic (Rev W), one side goes to +12V, the other to E24 > (NVRAM) pin 2, R67 (22K), one side of W7 (which goes to -23V) and the > collector of Q6 (2N3904) > > On the *bitsavers* schematic (later, Rev AA), one side goes to ground > (instead of +12V), but the rest it the same as above. > > Your board should have an indication of which circuit schematic it is. > > So, its a bypass cap for the NVRAM. On older boards it bypasses to > +12V, and on newer boards it bypasses to ground, and C59 bypasses +12V > to ground as well, which seems like a sensible change. ;') > > For future reference, when asking about DEC stuff, the classic computer > mailing list might get you an answer quicker. ;) " > > JRJ > From julf at julf.com Tue May 5 08:39:05 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:39:05 +0200 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com> <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <738c1aeb-8679-dc12-eead-c3d32714e997@julf.com> I have a bunch of the pizza box SPARC ones that need to find a proper home, but they are somewhat special as they were the ones from one of the first pan-European Internet service providers (EUnet). Julf On 03-05-2020 17:22, silvercreekvalley via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Every now and again I have a bit of time to mess with old computers - and usually for whatever reason - its Sun machines for me. > > I?ve had loads over the years, played with them and passed them on. > > Does anyone have anything old Sun wise available in the UK? I?d love to find an old VME bus machine but anything old or interesting. I can travel > to pick stuff up etc, social distancing observed of course :D > > Anyway - PM me if you have anything that?s restorable :) > > Cheers > > Ian > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 5 13:14:04 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 12:14:04 -0600 Subject: Pdp cpus In-Reply-To: <7192311c-f0ea-f5b6-0f47-5f8a90fd70e8@bitsavers.org> References: <7192311c-f0ea-f5b6-0f47-5f8a90fd70e8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/2/20 5:10 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > Interesting stuff > https://github.com/1801BM1/cpu11 On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:23 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Eric Smith's work on the WD CP1600 chipset's > various microcode [links] I've verified that the microcode dumps of the Soviet 581 LSI-11 clone* are identical to the DEC microcode. That's not particularly surprising, but it does give me confidence that the control chip PLAs should be identical as well. Since they have decoded the control chip PLAs, I should be able to use that to update my LSI-11 microcode disassembly. John took photos of the LSI-11 control chip for me, but I had somewhat more difficulty reading the PLA bits than I did with the WD9000 (Pascal Microengine) control chip, so I didn't complete transcribing the LSI-11 PLAs. I haven't really looked at the WD16 microcode or PLAs yet. * The multi-chip clone. The 1801BM* single-chip PDP-11 microprocessors are not directly based on any DEC design. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue May 5 14:40:36 2020 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 20:40:36 +0100 Subject: Was looking for old suns References: Message-ID: Hi Thanks for the replies with the Suns, hopefully I will be able to get one up and running :) As I should probably clear a bit of space in the ?office? - I have several bits of kit available. I?m in the UK. HP Visualise 86000 - complete system with keyboard/mouse - nice condition Several QBUS 11/53 machines with HD (5M I think), two pedestal, the rest ?rack mount? units. DEC alpha - not sure on model number but functional VAX 3000 - boots but needs restoration case is in poor condition. PM me if any of the above is of interest. I could probably ship some of the items. Thanks Ian From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:43:57 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 14:43:57 -0600 Subject: Pdp11/05 boot media In-Reply-To: <12295543-5d27-d2a0-db29-3d03947a6a8c@charter.net> References: <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com> <7ac264fb-8ead-bcab-bf04-14b094575a87@alembic.crystel.com> <12295543-5d27-d2a0-db29-3d03947a6a8c@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 5:43 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > RX01's are, IIRC, just standard IBM 3740 format, yes? > Yes. The RX02 double density format is the one that's incompatible with everything else. From 821 at 128.ca Tue May 5 10:07:18 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:07:18 +0000 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: <738c1aeb-8679-dc12-eead-c3d32714e997@julf.com> References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com> <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com>, <738c1aeb-8679-dc12-eead-c3d32714e997@julf.com> Message-ID: I used to work for sun at one time and would glad give some hardware you have a good home. What is your inventory list please and your asking prices. I would be an honor to rehouse something like those old troopers. Cheers Kevin ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Johan Helsingius via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 3:39:05 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for old Suns I have a bunch of the pizza box SPARC ones that need to find a proper home, but they are somewhat special as they were the ones from one of the first pan-European Internet service providers (EUnet). Julf On 03-05-2020 17:22, silvercreekvalley via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Every now and again I have a bit of time to mess with old computers - and usually for whatever reason - its Sun machines for me. > > I?ve had loads over the years, played with them and passed them on. > > Does anyone have anything old Sun wise available in the UK? I?d love to find an old VME bus machine but anything old or interesting. I can travel > to pick stuff up etc, social distancing observed of course :D > > Anyway - PM me if you have anything that?s restorable :) > > Cheers > > Ian > From spam at hell.org Tue May 5 20:06:13 2020 From: spam at hell.org (Mike Begley) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 01:06:13 +0000 Subject: Heathkit H8 and other items on Minneapolis craigslist Message-ID: Hey, all. I was browsing various craigslist places around the US and found someone selling off a substantial collection of classic micros outside Minneapolis His ad is here: https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/sys/d/silver-lake-vintage-computer-collection/7100922754.html Through our email chats I've determined that he has these components of an old Heathkit system of unknown workingness: H8 H17-3 floppy drive H17-2 drive chassis Zenith data systems ZVM-131 monitor Also, he has a terminal made by Data-100, for which I can't find much info but I suspect will be a 3270-compatible terminal of some sort. He also has a variety of micros, particularly some Atari 8-bit, Apple II , CoCos, and other things. The photos in the ad only show a fraction of what he has. He's not terribly knowledgeable - he came into this stuff as part of an estate cleanout and had 4 pickup truck loads of this stuff, so who knows what has been lost. I let him know that I would be posting here, so feel free to reach out to him directly. Anyway, I figured I'd post this here given that someone in the Minneapolis area might be interested in checking some of this stuff out, in a covid-compliant manner, of course... -mike From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 6 10:29:15 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 11:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd book Message-ID: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I've come across an odd book that might interest some here: "Achieving Accuray: A Legacy of Computers and Missiles", by Marshall William McMurray. The first couple of chapters merely re-tell the story of earliest computers (pre-elecronic and electronic), up through the IBM 701, Elliott 401, NCR 304, SAGE, CDC 6600, IBM 7090, etc. Competent, but nothing special. Then it gets interesting, though. Chapter 4 is "Small Magnetic Drum Computers of the 1950s", and it covers a bunch of machines I'd never heard of: JAINCOMP B-1 (!), MONROBOT III (!!), CADAC 101, 102 (!!!) and on and on. Chapter 5 is "Real-Time Control Computers", and it covers a long group of machines: ALWAC I, II, III; Univac Athena; Autonetics Verdan D9A-L; Librascope C-141 to name but a few. Pure gold, this chapter and the one before - retrieved a lot of machines from the memory hole. Chapter 6 is "NASA Control Computers", and it covers the usual suspects: IBM ASC 15, IBM LVDC, IBM GDC, Librascope Centaur, AGC, IBM 4Pi. Some of these are covered elseshere, but it's nice to have them all in one place. Chapter 7 is "Late-Model High Speed Supercomputers", with quite a range: starting with Cray 1, Sun, SGI, then the various ASCI array multi-processor systems at LLNL, etc. It then moved over to missiles, and goes through a similar progression, starting early, with some details of WWII era stuff (e.g.Hs 293's), then a chapter on V-1's amd V-2's and their derivatives. More chapters on "Early US Missile Programs", NAA's inertialguidance work and its applications up through Polaris, Titans, etc. Then more on later US missiles and their guidance systems, such as Minuteman, Trident and MX. A lengthy Chapter 13 is "Soviet and Russian Land-Based Missile Systems", which doesn't have quite the detail of the US chapters (in which the authot was personally involved), but is still novel. Another chapter then finishes with Soiet/Russian naval missiles. A very unusual and off-beat work. Noel From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed May 6 11:22:55 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 12:22:55 -0400 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> Noel Chiappa wrote: > Competent, but nothing special. Then it > gets interesting, though. > MONROBOT III (!!), Yes, the Monrobot is particularly interesting because (among other things) it was reviewed in the New Yorker magazine. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1960/03/19/portable-robot Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed May 6 12:08:29 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 10:08:29 -0700 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> > Yes, the Monrobot is particularly interesting > because (among other things) it was reviewed > in the New Yorker magazine. > > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1960/03/19/portable-robot That must have been quite a machine to beat a person five times in Tic Tac Toe. Even the WOPR couldn't do that... -Ali From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 6 15:23:24 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-R doc needed Message-ID: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, I'm looking for documentation on the MSV11-R; there's next to nothing online. (An -11/84 manual gives config, but that's all I cam find.) There is an 'MSV11-R User Guide' (EK-MSV1R-UG), but it's not online; I don't suppose anyone out there has one? I'm trying to confirm an online report that it's a PMI card; if so, I want to put a warning on the CHWiki page for it, to warn people not to plug it into a Q/Q backplane. (I have one, and did try it back when I first got it, but I don't recall if I knew it might be a PMI card at the time! I'm too lazy/low-energy to get my Q/CD machine running so I can plug it in and see if it still works. :-) Given the size of the card, and the amount of non-memory logic, compared to the MSV11-M and MSV11-Q, I would tend to suspect it is a PMI card, but it would be good to find some DEC docs to confirm it. Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 6 15:30:55 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:30:55 -0400 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> Never heard of it, but if you want me to try plugging it into my BA23 let me know. What's the worst that could happen :-) C On 5/6/2020 4:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hi, I'm looking for documentation on the MSV11-R; there's next to nothing > online. (An -11/84 manual gives config, but that's all I cam find.) There is > an 'MSV11-R User Guide' (EK-MSV1R-UG), but it's not online; I don't suppose > anyone out there has one? > > I'm trying to confirm an online report that it's a PMI card; if so, I want to > put a warning on the CHWiki page for it, to warn people not to plug it into a > Q/Q backplane. (I have one, and did try it back when I first got it, but I > don't recall if I knew it might be a PMI card at the time! I'm too > lazy/low-energy to get my Q/CD machine running so I can plug it in and see if > it still works. :-) > > Given the size of the card, and the amount of non-memory logic, compared to > the MSV11-M and MSV11-Q, I would tend to suspect it is a PMI card, but it > would be good to find some DEC docs to confirm it. > > Noel > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed May 6 16:12:09 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:12:09 -0500 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <631aaa2c-ffee-f5aa-2578-a967d94ce2fb@thereinhardts.org> Hmmm.? Smoke??? -- John H. Reinhardt On 5/6/2020 3:30 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Never heard of it, but if you want me to try plugging it into my BA23 let me know. What's the worst that could happen :-) > > C > > On 5/6/2020 4:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> Hi, I'm looking for documentation on the MSV11-R; there's next to nothing >> online. (An -11/84 manual gives config, but that's all I cam find.) There is >> an 'MSV11-R User Guide' (EK-MSV1R-UG), but it's not online; I don't suppose >> anyone out there has one? >> >> I'm trying to confirm an online report that it's a PMI card; if so, I want to >> put a warning on the CHWiki page for it, to warn people not to plug it into a >> Q/Q backplane. (I have one, and did try it back when I first got it, but I >> don't recall if I knew it might be a PMI card at the time! I'm too >> lazy/low-energy to get my Q/CD machine running so I can plug it in and see if >> it still works. :-) >> >> Given the size of the card, and the amount of non-memory logic, compared to >> the MSV11-M and MSV11-Q, I would tend to suspect it is a PMI card, but it >> would be good to find some DEC docs to confirm it. >> >> ?????? Noel >> From mark at matlockfamily.com Wed May 6 14:22:28 2020 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 14:22:28 -0500 Subject: Odd book Message-ID: <365D3C2A-1601-4CEC-A8CD-8511BABAD3DF@matlockfamily.com> > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Odd book > Message-ID: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > So, I've come across an odd book that might interest some here: "Achieving > Accuray: A Legacy of Computers and Missiles", by Marshall William McMurray. > > The first couple of chapters merely re-tell the story of earliest computers > (pre-elecronic and electronic), up through the IBM 701, Elliott 401, NCR 304, > SAGE, CDC 6600, IBM 7090, etc. Competent, but nothing special. Then it > gets interesting, though. ?. > A very unusual and off-beat work. > > Noel Noel, Thanks for the book recommendation above. I was happy to see that it was available in a reasonably priced Kindle version. One of my favorite computer history books is Stan Augarten's 1984 book, Bit by Bit: An Illustrated History of Computers. I did manage to find a copy and really enjoyed reading it and looking at the great photos in it. I was curious to know a bit more about the author and in ?DuckDuckGoing? him I ran across an online college course by Haverford University: http://ds-wordpress.haverford.edu/bitbybit/bit-by-bit-contents/front-matter/table-of-contents/ that has the entire text and the photos from Stan Augarten?s book. It is a great way to read an otherwise hard to find book. It also has some .pdfs of the lecture slides from the professors who put this great web site together. Mark From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed May 6 16:12:48 2020 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 21:12:48 +0000 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: In case you didn?t already have this info... http://pdp-11.nl/fieldguide.html This site has a doc ? Field guide to Q bus and unibus options? modules and it?s listed as a Q bus 3rd party option as follows... MSV11-R Q General Robotics 4Mb 22-bit memory, MSV11-p compatible Sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2020, at 13:31, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: ?Never heard of it, but if you want me to try plugging it into my BA23 let me know. What's the worst that could happen :-) C On 5/6/2020 4:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: Hi, I'm looking for documentation on the MSV11-R; there's next to nothing online. (An -11/84 manual gives config, but that's all I cam find.) There is an 'MSV11-R User Guide' (EK-MSV1R-UG), but it's not online; I don't suppose anyone out there has one? I'm trying to confirm an online report that it's a PMI card; if so, I want to put a warning on the CHWiki page for it, to warn people not to plug it into a Q/Q backplane. (I have one, and did try it back when I first got it, but I don't recall if I knew it might be a PMI card at the time! I'm too lazy/low-energy to get my Q/CD machine running so I can plug it in and see if it still works. :-) Given the size of the card, and the amount of non-memory logic, compared to the MSV11-M and MSV11-Q, I would tend to suspect it is a PMI card, but it would be good to find some DEC docs to confirm it. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 6 16:34:27 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 14:34:27 -0700 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <99cc18a0-7ace-1414-c92b-a18bd8bdb655@bitsavers.org> here is a picture of the board http://www.aceware.com.au/acms/ExpandThumbnail.asp?str640_480Image='images%2FInvent%2FGeneralRoboticsMSV_11R.jpg' From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 6 17:08:48 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 18:08:48 -0400 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <99cc18a0-7ace-1414-c92b-a18bd8bdb655@bitsavers.org> References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> <99cc18a0-7ace-1414-c92b-a18bd8bdb655@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The link doesn't work but this does. http://www.aceware.com.au/acms/images/Invent/GeneralRoboticsMSV_11R.jpg Maybe it's PMI memory without ECC? I count 18 bits across which seems like the MSV11-Q parity memory. Does it say PMI on the side? C From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 6 17:12:46 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 18:12:46 -0400 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <573d464e-5884-5353-81d0-c7b28290f2df@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <8cd150a3-658c-a5c2-c730-e64bbc157591@alembic.crystel.com> Ok. I think this is a picture of it: http://www.aceware.com.au/acms/images/Invent/GeneralRoboticsMSV_11R.jpg However if it is PMI then it does not have ECC. That's more like a MSV11-Q type memory. C From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 6 17:34:30 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 15:34:30 -0700 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 1:23 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, I'm looking for documentation on the MSV11-R; there's next to nothing > online. (An -11/84 manual gives config, but that's all I cam find.) There is > an 'MSV11-R User Guide' (EK-MSV1R-UG), but it's not online; I don't suppose > anyone out there has one? > > I'm trying to confirm an online report that it's a PMI card; if so, I want to > put a warning on the CHWiki page for it, to warn people not to plug it into a > Q/Q backplane. (I have one, and did try it back when I first got it, but I > don't recall if I knew it might be a PMI card at the time! I'm too > lazy/low-energy to get my Q/CD machine running so I can plug it in and see if > it still works. :-) > > Given the size of the card, and the amount of non-memory logic, compared to > the MSV11-M and MSV11-Q, I would tend to suspect it is a PMI card, but it > would be good to find some DEC docs to confirm it. > > Noel Photos of an actual DEC M7458 MSV11-R, not some random 3rd party board, on this thread: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55636-MSV11-R-dipswitch-settings From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 6 17:57:47 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 18:57:47 -0400 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <44e51365-3cf9-0f72-6896-6c0afd642990@alembic.crystel.com> Cool, but can't see without logging in. Was the other pic wrong? C > Photos of an actual DEC M7458 MSV11-R, not some random 3rd party > board, on this thread: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55636-MSV11-R-dipswitch-settings > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 6 18:04:01 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:04:01 -0700 Subject: Facit N4000 Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EC514F8-AACF-449D-9C7B-4AD3F00B76EC@gmail.com> Would love to see it, I have such a machine in the queue for restoration. Marc > On Apr 30, 2020, at 5:49 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > ?From time to time there are posts here about the Facit N4000 paper > tape punch/reader unit. The one that looks like a Facit 4070 with a > tape reader on the front (in fact the punch mechanism is much the same > as that in the 4070). > > I have reverse-engineered mine and traced out the schematics. Of > course it's one of my hand-drawn ones but I think it's mostly legible. > If anyone wants it I am happy to send out a copy (but as ever I'd > rather send it out once and have somebody else pass it on) > > -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 6 18:08:13 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:08:13 -0700 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <44e51365-3cf9-0f72-6896-6c0afd642990@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <44e51365-3cf9-0f72-6896-6c0afd642990@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: One is a DEC M7458 MSV11-R, the other is from a 3rd party "General Robotics Corp." according to the printing on the board, which apparently happens to share the same model name. On Wed, May 6, 2020, 3:57 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Cool, but can't see without logging in. Was the other pic wrong? > > C > > > Photos of an actual DEC M7458 MSV11-R, not some random 3rd party > > board, on this thread: > > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55636-MSV11-R-dipswitch-settings > > > From ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com Wed May 6 18:47:07 2020 From: ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com (Aaron Taylor) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:47:07 -0700 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200506202324.6644E18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20200506234707.GD7717@lagavulin.subgeniuskitty.com> > I'm trying to confirm an online report that [the MSV11-R is] a PMI card; I can confirm that the DEC MSV11-R is a PMI card. I own two and have used them with my KDJ11-B. The vcfed.org thread linked by someone else was actually started by me when I purchased them and couldn't find dipswitch settings. The screenshots I posted there confirm the board is recognized as PMI by my KDJ11-B. Aaron From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 6 18:59:41 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 19:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-R doc needed Message-ID: <20200506235941.EB64A18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > http://www.aceware.com.au/acms/images/Invent/GeneralRoboticsMSV_11R.jpg I don't know what that is, but it's not an MSV11-R. Here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/File:MSV11-R.jpg is an MSV11-R. > Maybe it's PMI memory without ECC? I count 18 bits across which seems > like the MSV11-Q parity memory. Alas, there is almost zilch original DEC documentation extant which speaks of it; not even uNote #28: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote28.txt which briefly covers all the other late DEC QBUS memories (including the MSV11-M, which ia otherwise _completely_ un-documented) mentions it. But I agree that given the 18 chips, it'a probably parity. Noel From ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com Wed May 6 19:21:20 2020 From: ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com (Aaron Taylor) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 17:21:20 -0700 Subject: MSV11-R doc needed In-Reply-To: <20200506235941.EB64A18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200506235941.EB64A18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20200507002120.GE7717@lagavulin.subgeniuskitty.com> > But I agree that given the 18 chips, [the MSV11-R is] probably parity. The link below is a screenshot from the onboard KDJ11-B 'print a memory map' function. It confirms the DEC MSV11-R is recognized as parity. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37954&d=1493018113 Aaron From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 6 20:53:54 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 21:53:54 -0400 Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot. In-Reply-To: <5EA06824.1080606@pico-systems.com> References: <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com> <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com> <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com> <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca> <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca> <07233686-d6ca-c559 -3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com> <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca> <5EA06824.1080606@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Well, I pulled the E2 op-amp and replaced it with a NOS one of the same model. Put the supply together and now I am getting -17 volts on pins E2 to ground (E10). I'm thinking of just replacing the power transistor Q12 with a 7912 -12v regulator that I have here and bypassing the whole op amp/transistor mess. That should give me a solid -12v on the E2 line and provide power for the -5 volt divider circuit. Thoughts? C On 4/22/2020 11:52 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 04/21/2020 10:09 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> On 2020-Apr-21, at 5:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Meantime reading the manual I found an interesting test: If you short >>> emitter to base on Q4 (easiest way is to jumper diode D10) the >>> voltage on the -12v supply goes to .4 volts. They're saying it's E2, >>> R15,R17,R14. >>> >>> Is there a way I can test the op-amp in circuit? Maybe it's dead. >> >> > Well, if the circuit **IS** regulating, then the voltage on the two > inputs will be identical. > But, since it might not be regulating, then these voltages would not be > equal. > But, if you can see that the + input is more positive than the - input, > yet the output > is pegged negative, for instance, then you know either the op-amp is > bad, or another circuit is overloading > the output and forcing it that way. > > Jon From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 6 18:01:21 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:01:21 -0700 Subject: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes In-Reply-To: <007401d62077$ba262f30$2e728d90$@gmail.com> References: <007401d62077$ba262f30$2e728d90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D856B10-5E82-475A-9CD2-08D163014F7A@gmail.com> Thanks! Marc > On May 2, 2020, at 4:49 AM, David Collins via cctech wrote: > > ?I've pulled together details of the controller used with an HP2748 paper tape reader to dump a bunch of tapes from the HP Computer Museum's collection with the help of J. David Bryan. > > The details are at this link.. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KaJkVgYzPusJN9tLf4IaSIa104fvLhUs > > The unit and Arduino code are both pretty rough and ready and I'm sure can be improved - but they served their purpose! > > Hope it is of use to others... > > Now to get those new tape files published... > > David Collins > www.hpmuseum.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Collins > Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2020 7:34 AM > To: J. David Bryan ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes > > Further to Dave?s post below, I?m happy to share the Arduino code and schematic if anyone has a suitable reader and wants to try it. It was indeed designed to interface to the HP2748 but is pretty simple and could be adapted to any similar reader. > > David Collins > > Sent from my iPad > >>> On 29 Apr 2020, at 6:33 am, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote: >>> >>> ?On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 17:56, Tony Duell via cctech wrote: >>> >>> The HP2748 is a common-ish example of this type of un[i]t. >> >> David Collins of the HP Computer Museum and I just recently completed >> reading some 200+ paper tapes from the museum collection. He used a >> 2748 coupled with a custom Arduino-based interface to produce >> plain-text files containing an octal representation of the tape bytes. >> We passed these through a small program to convert them to binary >> files and a second program to verify checksums of those tapes >> containing relocatable or absolute binary object data. The resulting >> files can be used as is with the HP 2100 SIMH simulator or could be >> punched back into physical paper tapes if desired. >> >> -- Dave >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 7 08:45:07 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:45:07 +0000 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net>, <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> Message-ID: There are only a few winning and tying patterns for tic tac toe. There was a fellow that made a relay logic that could play tic tac toe and would win against a human of at least tie but never lose. Checkers is one of the most complicated games. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 10:08 AM To: 'William Sudbrink' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Odd book > Yes, the Monrobot is particularly interesting > because (among other things) it was reviewed > in the New Yorker magazine. > > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1960/03/19/portable-robot That must have been quite a machine to beat a person five times in Tic Tac Toe. Even the WOPR couldn't do that... -Ali From cclist at sytse.net Thu May 7 11:56:16 2020 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:56:16 +0200 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <059B5693-EED9-43C9-8EC4-228C21839BD4@sytse.net> Thanks for the recoomendation Noel, I?ve ordered a copy. Looking forward to when it arrives! Cheers Sytse > On 6 May 2020, at 17:29, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So, I've come across an odd book that might interest some here: "Achieving > Accuray: A Legacy of Computers and Missiles", by Marshall William McMurray. > > The first couple of chapters merely re-tell the story of earliest computers > (pre-elecronic and electronic), up through the IBM 701, Elliott 401, NCR 304, > SAGE, CDC 6600, IBM 7090, etc. Competent, but nothing special. Then it > gets interesting, though. > > Chapter 4 is "Small Magnetic Drum Computers of the 1950s", and it covers a > bunch of machines I'd never heard of: JAINCOMP B-1 (!), MONROBOT III (!!), > CADAC 101, 102 (!!!) and on and on. > > Chapter 5 is "Real-Time Control Computers", and it covers a long group of > machines: ALWAC I, II, III; Univac Athena; Autonetics Verdan D9A-L; Librascope > C-141 to name but a few. Pure gold, this chapter and the one before - retrieved > a lot of machines from the memory hole. > > Chapter 6 is "NASA Control Computers", and it covers the usual suspects: IBM > ASC 15, IBM LVDC, IBM GDC, Librascope Centaur, AGC, IBM 4Pi. Some of these > are covered elseshere, but it's nice to have them all in one place. > > Chapter 7 is "Late-Model High Speed Supercomputers", with quite a range: > starting with Cray 1, Sun, SGI, then the various ASCI array multi-processor > systems at LLNL, etc. > > It then moved over to missiles, and goes through a similar progression, > starting early, with some details of WWII era stuff (e.g.Hs 293's), then a > chapter on V-1's amd V-2's and their derivatives. > > More chapters on "Early US Missile Programs", NAA's inertialguidance work and > its applications up through Polaris, Titans, etc. Then more on later US > missiles and their guidance systems, such as Minuteman, Trident and MX. > > A lengthy Chapter 13 is "Soviet and Russian Land-Based Missile Systems", which > doesn't have quite the detail of the US chapters (in which the authot was > personally involved), but is still novel. Another chapter then finishes with > Soiet/Russian naval missiles. > > A very unusual and off-beat work. > > Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 7 13:37:09 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-R doc needed Message-ID: <20200507183709.1F3C218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Aaron Taylor > I can confirm that the DEC MSV11-R is a PMI card. I own two and have > used them with my KDJ11-B. ... the board is recognized as PMI by my KDJ11-B. Also, in a fairly amazing bit of sleuthing, Jerry Weiss found (in some of the early PR versions of the -11/84 TM) a diagram which actually shows an MSV11R-R connected to the PMI bus (on pg 3-63, or thereabouts). Thanks, guys! Now, to try and round up enough energy to get my Q/CD machine running, to confirm that I didn't fry mine. (I don't remember any smoke, but I'm pretty sure I tried it, to check it, after I bought it.) Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 7 10:05:27 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:05:27 -0400 Subject: paper tape reader EECO "The Director" Message-ID: Per my post from last week, after checking out the Decitek readers I ended up getting a used by warrantied EECO "The Director" MT-82 tape reader with a short-height spool for a good price. Here is the manual. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/eeco/DOC10006_EECO_MT-82_MTS-82_Mar82.pdf Anyone use this unit? I saw some youtube video display how the servos appear to treat the tape kindly, that was a selling point. Not as interested in speed as that's not the point, eh? Bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 7 10:19:39 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:19:39 -0400 Subject: paper tape reader EECO "The Director" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E042DD6-C006-4CF2-9793-E8B28FD054F5@comcast.net> > On May 7, 2020, at 11:05 AM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > Per my post from last week, after checking out the Decitek readers I ended > up getting a used by warrantied EECO "The Director" MT-82 tape reader with > a short-height spool for a good price. > > Here is the manual. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/eeco/DOC10006_EECO_MT-82_MTS-82_Mar82.pdf > > Anyone use this unit? I saw some youtube video display how the servos > appear to treat the tape kindly, that was a selling point. Not as > interested in speed as that's not the point, eh? Note that the servos are the tape spool drives. The actual tape reading block has a sprocket wheel with stepper motor drive. Not bad but not ideal for fragile tape. paul From wkt at tuhs.org Thu May 7 17:08:14 2020 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:08:14 +1000 Subject: Odd book Message-ID: <20200507220814.GA3621@minnie.tuhs.org> dwight wrote on Thu May 7 08:45:07 CDT 2020: > There are only a few winning and tying patterns for tic tac toe. There > was a fellow that made a relay logic that could play tic tac toe and > would win against a human of at least tie but never lose. Here's my version of tic tac toe in TTL logic: J/K flip flops and a ROM: https://github.com/DoctorWkt/TTL_TicTacToe Cheers, Warren From steven at malikoff.com Thu May 7 17:37:04 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:37:04 +1000 Subject: paper tape reader EECO "The Director" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill said > Per my post from last week, after checking out the Decitek readers I ended > up getting a used by warrantied EECO "The Director" MT-82 tape reader with > a short-height spool for a good price. > > Here is the manual. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/eeco/DOC10006_EECO_MT-82_MTS-82_Mar82.pdf > > Anyone use this unit? I saw some youtube video display how the servos > appear to treat the tape kindly, that was a selling point. Not as > interested in speed as that's not the point, eh? I have one. It reads in short sharp bursts even at the lowest baud rate. I suspect it's just buffering and adding a pause before the next read. The spindle motors are really high torque and fast. I have only tried it with my home made tapes and a couple old tapes, the sprocket is enough power alone to pull the tape through very easily. I made up an output hopper from a sheet of cardboard, some pieces of corflute, three pieces of 30x10x220mm wood and a piece of perspex on the front so I could check the tape was fanfolding correctly. This has a hole at the top and hangs on the spindle, the reader is placed on the edge of the bench so the hopper can hang below it. It's only a prototype hopper for a nicer design that can sit on/below the MTS-82 whilst it's racked in an H960 (which it is now). Steve. From steven at malikoff.com Thu May 7 17:37:04 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:37:04 +1000 Subject: paper tape reader EECO "The Director" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill said > Per my post from last week, after checking out the Decitek readers I ended > up getting a used by warrantied EECO "The Director" MT-82 tape reader with > a short-height spool for a good price. > > Here is the manual. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/eeco/DOC10006_EECO_MT-82_MTS-82_Mar82.pdf > > Anyone use this unit? I saw some youtube video display how the servos > appear to treat the tape kindly, that was a selling point. Not as > interested in speed as that's not the point, eh? I have one. It reads in short sharp bursts even at the lowest baud rate. I suspect it's just buffering and adding a pause before the next read. The spindle motors are really high torque and fast. I have only tried it with my home made tapes and a couple old tapes, the sprocket is enough power alone to pull the tape through very easily. I made up an output hopper from a sheet of cardboard, some pieces of corflute, three pieces of 30x10x220mm wood and a piece of perspex on the front so I could check the tape was fanfolding correctly. This has a hole at the top and hangs on the spindle, the reader is placed on the edge of the bench so the hopper can hang below it. It's only a prototype hopper for a nicer design that can sit on/below the MTS-82 whilst it's racked in an H960 (which it is now). Steve. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 7 18:51:11 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:51:11 -0400 Subject: paper tape reader EECO "The Director" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03FD33ED-571A-4D86-98B9-6ED7C45DB85E@comcast.net> > On May 7, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I made up an output hopper from a sheet of cardboard, some pieces of corflute, three > pieces of 30x10x220mm wood and a piece of perspex on the front so I could check the > tape was fanfolding correctly. This has a hole at the top and hangs on the spindle, the > reader is placed on the edge of the bench so the hopper can hang below it. I remember an output hopper for collecting paper tape as it came through a high speed (1000 cps optical) reader, at U. Eindhoven, THE system. I think the hopper was simply a large bucket, essentially a large trash can. When the tape was finished the operator would put the end into a tape winder and wind it back up from the bucket. This seemed to work well; it was done for hundreds of tapes per day -- this was a batch system with paper tape input for programs and data. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 7 18:51:11 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:51:11 -0400 Subject: paper tape reader EECO "The Director" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03FD33ED-571A-4D86-98B9-6ED7C45DB85E@comcast.net> > On May 7, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I made up an output hopper from a sheet of cardboard, some pieces of corflute, three > pieces of 30x10x220mm wood and a piece of perspex on the front so I could check the > tape was fanfolding correctly. This has a hole at the top and hangs on the spindle, the > reader is placed on the edge of the bench so the hopper can hang below it. I remember an output hopper for collecting paper tape as it came through a high speed (1000 cps optical) reader, at U. Eindhoven, THE system. I think the hopper was simply a large bucket, essentially a large trash can. When the tape was finished the operator would put the end into a tape winder and wind it back up from the bucket. This seemed to work well; it was done for hundreds of tapes per day -- this was a batch system with paper tape input for programs and data. paul From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu May 7 23:28:40 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:28:40 -0700 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net>, <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> Message-ID: <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> >There are only a few winning and tying patterns for tic tac toe. There was a fellow that made a relay logic that >could play tic tac toe and would win against a human of at least tie but never lose. >Checkers is one of the most complicated games. >Dwight Dwight, I am not very familiar with the game theory of Tic Tac Toe. However, what you say does make sense and in general I would think the best that can be hoped for between adult player and a computer is a tie (barring no stupid mistakes on the part of the human player). However, according to the New Yorker article the Manrobot beat the human player five times in a row.... hence my quip about the WOPR. -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 8 00:01:21 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 22:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net>, <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> Message-ID: >> There are only a few winning and tying patterns for tic tac toe. There was > a fellow that made a relay logic that >could play tic tac toe and would win > against a human of at least tie but never lose. >> Checkers is one of the most complicated games. >> Dwight > I am not very familiar with the game theory of Tic Tac Toe. However, what > you say does make sense and in general I would think the best that can be > hoped for between adult player and a computer is a tie (barring no stupid > mistakes on the part of the human player). However, according to the New > Yorker article the Manrobot beat the human player five times in a row.... > hence my quip about the WOPR. Consider the possibility that the writer took "did not lose 5 times in a row", and wrote that as "WON 5 times in a row". From bobh at tds.net Fri May 8 01:06:53 2020 From: bobh at tds.net (Robert Harrison) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 02:06:53 -0400 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2285D5E0-BD92-482C-8258-2E40FD65B4A6@tds.net> I wrote a program for TicTacToe back in 1975 for a Monroe Calculator. I had a cheat key you could use to launch the game which would allow to win, it only would stop obvious winning situations, otherwise, the calculator would win or tie. My 8 year old sister played so bad, she beat it in winning mode!!! Sent from my iPhone > On May 8, 2020, at 1:01 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > ? >> >>> There are only a few winning and tying patterns for tic tac toe. There was >> a fellow that made a relay logic that >could play tic tac toe and would win >> against a human of at least tie but never lose. >>> Checkers is one of the most complicated games. >>> Dwight > >> I am not very familiar with the game theory of Tic Tac Toe. However, what >> you say does make sense and in general I would think the best that can be >> hoped for between adult player and a computer is a tie (barring no stupid >> mistakes on the part of the human player). However, according to the New >> Yorker article the Manrobot beat the human player five times in a row.... >> hence my quip about the WOPR. > > Consider the possibility that the writer took "did not lose 5 times in a row", and wrote that as "WON 5 times in a row". > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 8 03:11:25 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 01:11:25 -0700 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net>, <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> Message-ID: <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> > Consider the possibility that the writer took "did not lose 5 times in > a > row", and wrote that as "WON 5 times in a row". Not following Fred. The writer wrote: "We got trimmed in five straight games, and the vice-president in charge of marketing seemed very much pleased." The slang is a bit before my time but I read this as the human player lost five times in a row to the computer. Am I reading it wrong or am I missing something? -Ali From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri May 8 06:15:53 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:15:53 -0400 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> Message-ID: <83209a36-04ea-3518-7516-21a61af9d249@alembic.crystel.com> "Trimmed" is a term meaning "scammed" back in the 1920's usually by a confidence man. The goal of a confidence game was typically to "trim a mark" for example. In this context the author was probably saying that not only did they get beaten, they got beaten bad in what appeared to be a "rigged game". I highly recommend the book "The Big Con" by David Maurer. Written in the mid to late 1930's it's a fascinating and informative look into the language, argot, and methods of the classic confidence man. A skill that seems to be coming back into vogue these days.... C On 5/8/2020 4:11 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Consider the possibility that the writer took "did not lose 5 times in >> a >> row", and wrote that as "WON 5 times in a row". > > Not following Fred. The writer wrote: "We got trimmed in five straight > games, and the vice-president in charge of marketing seemed very much > pleased." The slang is a bit before my time but I read this as the human > player lost five times in a row to the computer. Am I reading it wrong or am > I missing something? > > -Ali > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 8 07:24:18 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:24:18 -0400 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <83209a36-04ea-3518-7516-21a61af9d249@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> <83209a36-04ea-3518-7516-21a61af9d249@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <9073df83-953c-71f7-e4a3-69a2ffd4b35e@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-05-08 7:15 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > "Trimmed" is a term meaning "scammed" back in the 1920's usually by a > confidence man. The goal of a confidence game was typically to "trim a > mark" for example. > > In this context the author was probably saying that not only did they > get beaten, they got beaten bad in what appeared to be a "rigged game". Alright, you got me -- how do you "rig" TTT? --Toby > > I highly recommend the book "The Big Con" by David Maurer. Written in > the mid to late 1930's it's a fascinating and informative look into the > language, argot, and methods of the classic confidence man. A skill that > seems to be coming back into vogue these days.... > > C > > On 5/8/2020 4:11 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> Consider the possibility that the writer took "did not lose 5 times in >>> a >>> row", and wrote that as "WON 5 times in a row". >> >> Not following Fred. The writer wrote: "We got trimmed in five straight >> games, and the vice-president in charge of marketing seemed very much >> pleased." The slang is a bit before my time but I read this as the human >> player lost five times in a row to the computer. Am I reading it wrong >> or am >> I missing something? >> >> -Ali >> From j_hoppe at t-online.de Fri May 8 10:08:25 2020 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 17:08:25 +0200 Subject: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced Message-ID: <5cf30f49-9d5d-c7ff-2486-da7e8cfa58bd@t-online.de> Guys, I added a motor drive to my DIGI-COMP I, and wrote 4 web pages about that device. See http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/ or just the video https://youtu.be/D6GgxXRJXnw best regards, Joerg From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 8 14:29:21 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net>, <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> Message-ID: > > > However, according to the New Yorker article the Manrobot beat the > > > human player five times in a row.... >> Consider the possibility that the writer took "did not lose 5 times in >> a >> row", and wrote that as "WON 5 times in a row". > Not following Fred. The writer wrote: "We got trimmed in five straight > games, and the vice-president in charge of marketing seemed very much > pleased." The slang is a bit before my time but I read this as the human > player lost five times in a row to the computer. Am I reading it wrong or am > I missing something? One of the problems with the use of street slang is that it changes, sometimes rapidly. a 1920s meaning is not necessarily the same as the meaning half a century or more later. "We got trimmed" is not the same as "it beat the human player". Beating the human player is possible only if the human player does not play well. A competent human player (no misteaks) would be able to force a draw. As games go, it's not a great one, because once both players learn it, then winning isn't going to happen. To make it into a practical game, one could add a level of chance or skill to be able to make a move, rather then simple CHOICE (as was done by some TV game shows) Otherwise, first player takes center; other player takes a corner; first player takes opposite corner, . . . IFF the writer knew what had happened, it would be reasonable to claim, "the computer DID NOT LOSE five times in a row." Is THAT what the writer meant by "trimmed"? OR, did the writer simply not understand the POSSIBLE outcomes of the competition? From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:13:44 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 14:13:44 -0400 Subject: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced (Joerg Hoppe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: Joerg Hoppe > Subject: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced > > Guys, > > I added a motor drive to my DIGI-COMP I, and wrote 4 web pages about > that device. > > See http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/ > or just the video https://youtu.be/D6GgxXRJXnw > > best regards, > Joerg > That is very cool! The RICM has a DIGI-COMP, but we have not done much with it other than put it on display. -- Michael Thompson From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri May 8 15:23:26 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 16:23:26 -0400 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> Message-ID: <16efff53-2e5c-5dd3-a886-2b993268732e@alembic.crystel.com> Remember, back in the 60's people really didn't take game theory very seriously. That's why that Merlin game's tic tac toe was so popular. Nowadays we have u tube to show us how to win at TTT. Back then not so much. C On 5/8/2020 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> > > However, according to the New Yorker article the Manrobot beat the >> > > human player five times in a row.... > >>> Consider the possibility that the writer took "did not lose 5 times in >>> a >>> row", and wrote that as "WON 5 times in a row". > >> Not following Fred. The writer wrote: "We got trimmed in five straight >> games, and the vice-president in charge of marketing seemed very much >> pleased." The slang is a bit before my time but I read this as the human >> player lost five times in a row to the computer. Am I reading it wrong >> or am >> I missing something? > > One of the problems with the use of street slang is that it changes, > sometimes rapidly.? a 1920s meaning is not necessarily the same as the > meaning half a century or more later. > > "We got trimmed" is not the same as "it beat the human player". > > Beating the human player is possible only if the human player does not > play well.? A competent human player (no misteaks) would be able to > force a draw.? As games go, it's not a great one, because once both > players learn it, then winning isn't going to happen.? To make it into a > practical game, one could add a level of chance or skill to be able to > make a move, rather then simple CHOICE (as was done by some TV game shows) > > Otherwise, first player takes center; > other player takes a corner; > first player takes opposite corner, . . . > > > IFF the writer knew what had happened, it would be reasonable to claim, > "the computer DID NOT LOSE five times in a row." > Is THAT what the writer meant by "trimmed"? > OR, did the writer simply not understand the POSSIBLE outcomes of the > competition? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 8 17:17:03 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 23:17:03 +0100 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <16efff53-2e5c-5dd3-a886-2b993268732e@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> <16efff53-2e5c-5dd3-a886-2b993268732e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 08/05/2020 21:23, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Remember, back in the 60's people really didn't take game theory very > seriously. That's why that Merlin game's tic tac toe was so popular. > > Nowadays we have u tube to show us how to win at TTT. Back then not so > much. > If you can't work out TTT (or OXO) without youtube then you've got no chance with ... well pretty much any game :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri May 8 19:07:22 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 20:07:22 -0400 Subject: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced In-Reply-To: <5cf30f49-9d5d-c7ff-2486-da7e8cfa58bd@t-online.de> References: <5cf30f49-9d5d-c7ff-2486-da7e8cfa58bd@t-online.de> Message-ID: It it possible to get parts for a Digicomp? Mine needs some springs and the thing that connects the clock to the whatever. C On 5/8/2020 11:08 AM, J?rg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > Guys, > > I added a motor drive to my DIGI-COMP I, and wrote 4 web pages about > that device. > > See http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/ > > or just the video https://youtu.be/D6GgxXRJXnw > > best regards, > > Joerg > From cube1 at charter.net Fri May 8 22:35:44 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 22:35:44 -0500 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8c628461-9e7c-cf05-e0d0-d5c20197b160@charter.net> On 5/6/2020 10:29 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, I've come across an odd book that might interest some here: "Achieving > Accuray: A Legacy of Computers and Missiles", by Marshall William McMurray. > > The first couple of chapters merely re-tell the story of earliest computers > (pre-elecronic and electronic), up through the IBM 701, Elliott 401, NCR 304, > SAGE, CDC 6600, IBM 7090, etc. Competent, but nothing special. Then it > gets interesting, though. > > Chapter 4 is "Small Magnetic Drum Computers of the 1950s", and it covers a > bunch of machines I'd never heard of: JAINCOMP B-1 (!), MONROBOT III (!!), > CADAC 101, 102 (!!!) and on and on. > I have the paper tape reader off of a Monrobot, IIRC. Not sure which generation. JRJ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 8 23:15:33 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 21:15:33 -0700 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <83209a36-04ea-3518-7516-21a61af9d249@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net> <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> <83209a36-04ea-3518-7516-21a61af9d249@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <001401d625b8$7cf17f20$76d47d60$@net> > "Trimmed" is a term meaning "scammed" back in the 1920's usually by a > confidence man. The goal of a confidence game was typically to "trim a > mark" for example. > > In this context the author was probably saying that not only did they > get beaten, they got beaten bad in what appeared to be a "rigged game". Thanks for the info. So is he saying it was rigged or that the only way they could win 5 times in a row was if it was rigged? ;). It is interesting how slang and even common words change meaning and connotation over the years so that one generation reading something even as recently as a 100 years ago would run into issues. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 8 23:19:59 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 21:19:59 -0700 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: <20200506152915.23EA118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <019b01d623c2$99768fc0$cc63af40$@verizon.net>, <004101d623c8$f732c7e0$e59857a0$@net> <006001d624f1$2765a760$7630f620$@net> <007401d62510$45557060$d0005120$@net> Message-ID: <001501d625b9$1b41c180$51c54480$@net> > Beating the human player is possible only if the human player does not > play well. A competent human player (no misteaks) would be able to > force > a draw. Agree completely. However, I am not sure if the sales manager would be as pleased for a simple draw. After all it does not show the superiority of his computer. But this is the 60s so maybe a draw was good enough! -Ali From mark.tapley at swri.org Fri May 8 17:10:07 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 22:10:07 +0000 Subject: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced In-Reply-To: <5cf30f49-9d5d-c7ff-2486-da7e8cfa58bd@t-online.de> References: <5cf30f49-9d5d-c7ff-2486-da7e8cfa58bd@t-online.de> Message-ID: <71C41ADB-B0BF-49B7-8DCE-E7B2CB337647@swri.edu> > On May 8, 2020, at 10:08 AM, J?rg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Guys, > > I added a motor drive to my DIGI-COMP I, and wrote 4 web pages about that device. > > See http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/ > > or just the video https://youtu.be/D6GgxXRJXnw > > best regards, > > Joerg I can hear the overclocking crowd coming already. :-). And, I love the program - that looks a lot like my first program. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sat May 9 07:06:57 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 14:06:57 +0200 Subject: Facit N4000 Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: tor 2020-04-30 klockan 13:49 +0100 skrev Tony Duell via cctalk: > From time to time there are posts here about the Facit N4000 paper > tape punch/reader unit. The one that looks like a Facit 4070 with a > tape reader on the front (in fact the punch mechanism is much the > same > as that in the 4070). > > I have reverse-engineered mine and traced out the schematics. Of > course it's one of my hand-drawn ones but I think it's mostly > legible. > If anyone wants it I am happy to send out a copy (but as ever I'd > rather send it out once and have somebody else pass it on) > > -tony When was your punch made in ?tvidaberg ? According to Tekniska museet (museum of technology) Stockholm, they were made between 1968 to 1999. About 145000 done in total. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sat May 9 07:10:38 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 14:10:38 +0200 Subject: Facit N4000 Schematic (BESK application) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28b61e6d79983576985a6b5c9590e57ee1258c56.camel@agj.net> tor 2020-04-30 klockan 13:49 +0100 skrev Tony Duell via cctalk: > From time to time there are posts here about the Facit N4000 paper > tape punch/reader unit. The one that looks like a Facit 4070 with a > tape reader on the front (in fact the punch mechanism is much the > same > as that in the 4070). > > I have reverse-engineered mine and traced out the schematics. Of > course it's one of my hand-drawn ones but I think it's mostly > legible. > If anyone wants it I am happy to send out a copy (but as ever I'd > rather send it out once and have somebody else pass it on) > > -tony On the page about the Facit N 4070, (the page is really about the BESK) is a link to a early computer generated film: https://youtu.be/XhNT501DsJI Using the BESK, the road designers of the motorway between Stockholm and Nacka was able to simulate driving on the road. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat May 9 07:34:39 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 13:34:39 +0100 Subject: Facit N4000 Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:07 PM Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > tor 2020-04-30 klockan 13:49 +0100 skrev Tony Duell via cctalk: > > From time to time there are posts here about the Facit N4000 paper > > tape punch/reader unit. The one that looks like a Facit 4070 with a > > tape reader on the front (in fact the punch mechanism is much the > > same > > as that in the 4070). > > > > I have reverse-engineered mine and traced out the schematics. Of > > course it's one of my hand-drawn ones but I think it's mostly > > legible. > > If anyone wants it I am happy to send out a copy (but as ever I'd > > rather send it out once and have somebody else pass it on) > > > > -tony > > When was your punch made in ?tvidaberg ? I will have to check (and my 4070s) > > According to Tekniska museet (museum of technology) Stockholm, they > were made between 1968 to 1999. The Facit 4070 might have been (the first version of the logic board used DTL I seem to recall) but the N4000 is much later. There's a 6809 microprocessor and a 68701 microcontroller in there. -tony From rar at syssrc.com Sat May 9 09:26:48 2020 From: rar at syssrc.com (rar) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 14:26:48 +0000 Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced In-Reply-To: <71C41ADB-B0BF-49B7-8DCE-E7B2CB337647@swri.edu> References: <5cf30f49-9d5d-c7ff-2486-da7e8cfa58bd@t-online.de> <71C41ADB-B0BF-49B7-8DCE-E7B2CB337647@swri.edu> Message-ID: <0e1016d07b284190b1e5ab3c3bcc2053@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com> Love it! https://Museum.syssrc.com/tour Bob Roswell -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 08, 2020 6:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced > On May 8, 2020, at 10:08 AM, J?rg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Guys, > > I added a motor drive to my DIGI-COMP I, and wrote 4 web pages about that device. > > See http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/ > > or just the video https://youtu.be/D6GgxXRJXnw > > best regards, > > Joerg I can hear the overclocking crowd coming already. :-). And, I love the program - that looks a lot like my first program. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 9 10:23:16 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 11:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd book Message-ID: <20200509152316.B0E8318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dwight Kelvey > There was a fellow that made a relay logic that could play tic tac toe What's with these new-fangled devices using _electricity_ anyway? :-) In high school, my math teacher (I think it was) used a couple of matchboxes and some beads to create a TTT device; he 'programmed' it by playing against it, and when the device lost a game, he pulled out the bead that indicated the device's previous move, so it could never make that losing move again. Pretty impressive, I thought... Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat May 9 10:41:50 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:41:50 +0100 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <20200509152316.B0E8318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200509152316.B0E8318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 4:23 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Dwight Kelvey > > > There was a fellow that made a relay logic that could play tic tac toe > > What's with these new-fangled devices using _electricity_ anyway? :-) > > In high school, my math teacher (I think it was) used a couple of matchboxes > and some beads to create a TTT device; he 'programmed' it by playing against > it, and when the device lost a game, he pulled out the bead that indicated > the device's previous move, so it could never make that losing move again. > Pretty impressive, I thought... I am pretty sure that was in one of Martin Gardner's columns (Mathematical Games) in Scientific American, and is reprinted in one of his books. Of course he might have got it from your teacher rather than vice versa. I am sure I have the appropriate book on my shelves, I can try to find the reference if you want it. -tony From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sat May 9 10:51:41 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:51:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: <20200509152316.B0E8318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <349390366.981845.1589039501594@email.ionos.com> > On May 9, 2020 at 10:41 AM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 4:23 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:>> > From: Dwight Kelvey> > There was a fellow that made a relay logic that could play tic tac toe> What's with these new-fangled devices using _electricity_ anyway? :-)> In high school, my math teacher (I think it was) used a couple of matchboxesand some beads to create a TTT device; he 'programmed' it by playing againstit, and when the device lost a game, he pulled out the bead that indicatedthe device's previous move, so it could never make that losing move again.Pretty impressive, I thought...I am pretty sure that was in one of Martin Gardner's columns(Mathematical Games) in Scientific American, and is reprinted in oneof his books. Of course he might have got it from your teacher ratherthan vice versa. MENACE? 1960? https://opendatascience.com/menace-donald-michie-tic-tac-toe-machine-learning/ Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 9 11:32:05 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:32:05 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Ripple Message-ID: <008501d6261f$60a29e00$21e7da00$@ntlworld.com> Hello, I have recently been trying to improve the ripple on the output of my MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 PSU because occasionally it would fry a memory module. I replaced a bunch of capacitors, some of which had started to leak. However, the ripple does not seem much better. There is a scope trace here: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/microvax-3100-model-95-psu-ripp le-after-re-capping.png Ch1 is the 12V output and Ch2 is the 5V output. I had an old RD53 connected as a dummy load. It is possible that the memory was breaking because of occasional spikes that are worse, but I don't know. Does that seem OK? Thanks Rob From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 9 11:44:30 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 11:44:30 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Ripple In-Reply-To: <008501d6261f$60a29e00$21e7da00$@ntlworld.com> References: <008501d6261f$60a29e00$21e7da00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5EB6DDEE.6020406@pico-systems.com> On 05/09/2020 11:32 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > > > I have recently been trying to improve the ripple on the output of my > MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 PSU because occasionally it would fry a memory > module. I replaced a bunch of capacitors, some of which had started to leak. > However, the ripple does not seem much better. There is a scope trace here: > > > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/microvax-3100-model-95-psu-ripp > le-after-re-capping.png > > > > Ch1 is the 12V output and Ch2 is the 5V output. I had an old RD53 connected > as a dummy load. It is possible that the memory was breaking because of > occasional spikes that are worse, but I don't know. Does that seem OK? > > These spikes are very likely not real, but a result of probe ground impedance. There likely ARE some spikes and ripple, but not to the extent of the giant, sharp vertical spikes. If you are using a X10 probe, does the 200 mV / div on the scope trace reflect that attenuation? In other words, are the spikes 400 mV or 4 V? Jon From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat May 9 11:58:58 2020 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:58:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: <20200509152316.B0E8318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <873055556.144066.1589043538804@mail.yahoo.com> On Saturday, May 9, 2020, 11:42:11 AM EDT, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 4:23 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> > From: Dwight Kelvey >> >> > There was a fellow that made a relay logic that could play tic tac toe There's a guy who brings the stepper/relay TTT machine he did in high school to VCFSE every year. >> In high school, my math teacher (I think it was) used a couple of matchboxes >> and some beads to create a TTT device; he 'programmed' it by playing against >> it, and when the device lost a game, he pulled out the bead that indicated >> the device's previous move, so it could never make that losing move again. >> Pretty impressive, I thought... > > I am pretty sure that was in one of Martin Gardner's columns > (Mathematical Games) in Scientific American, and is reprinted in one > of his books. Of course he might have got it from your teacher rather > than vice versa. If it's the one I'm thinking of, the game is called hexapawn, though it's played on a 3x3 grid, like TTT. I've always had a fond spot for that article. It was one of my inspirations back when I did a lot of AI. BLS From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat May 9 12:03:57 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 13:03:57 -0400 Subject: Odd punched cards References: <000e01d61999$72768930$57639b90$@vanpeborgh.eu> <77DF09F3EC4C464F9319CCF7E37142C9@310e2> <002101d619a7$b2ec6d00$18c54700$@vanpeborgh.eu> <2263F580AF5F4CE7AB5DA2DF300069A1@310e2> <001901d625ec$60a25810$21e70830$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <42B459B098EE44FAB113AB6F7B5BC856@310e2> If I said 'EPT' anywhere I apologize; I'm talking about PPT (Punched Paper Tape) and EPCs (Edge Punched Cards). Here's a description of a series 'L' system, the successor to the 'E' series, containing "The reader could be used for loading programs faster. It could also be used for accessing user data from punched paper tape or from edge-punched cards." http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/descriptions/bltc.htm And pictures of the PPT/EPC perforator and reader (unfortunately the perf picture seems to link to the reader so you don't get a full-sized picture) : http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgltc.htm- A great (downloadable) book full of pictures and specifications of computers of that era is "A Third Survey of Domestic Electronic Digital Computing Systems" (one of a series): https://books.google.ca/books?id=fZg8yAEACAAJ&dq=a+third+survey&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipiMiBlafpAhWjm-AKHQqcBhAQ6AEINTAC See P.179 for a well tricked out E101. Unfortunately people tend to dismiss this class of systems as 'only' accounting machines, largely because of their integrated keyboards and printer carriages based on the earlier electro-mechanical machines for operator familiarity, so there's little information and discussion about them. But they are definitely 'true' computers using the same technology as contemporary general-purpose systems, core memory, disk drives, etc., and as technology advanced IC memory, high-speed dot-matrix printers etc., and, in the latest models, multiple high-speed cassette drive systems used the same way as the big brother tape drives and almost as much fun to watch in action. Sorry for going a little OT; I'll do some digging for those cards... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Van Peborgh" To: "'Mike Stein'" Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2020 6:27 AM Subject: RE: Odd punched cards > M, > > An intriguing email. Also leaves me with more questions... And longings! > > My [PVP: ] comments are in your email below. > > Vintage computers forever! Many thanks, > > P > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Stein > Sent: 08 May 2020 16:45 > To: Peter Van Peborgh > Subject: Re: Odd punched cards > > The systems that I'm familiar with that used EPCs were Burroughs 'E' series > accounting computers; the readers and perforators handled both PPT and EPCs > and the cards were a sort of random-access PPT. > > [PVP: ] I am having problems finding info on these two types of cards: EPT > and EPC. Can you point me in the right direction? > > If you were preparing an invoice, for example, you might have a set of cards > for the customer name and address and another (possibly different colour) > set for the line items; you'd enter the quantities and it would be printed > and punched out on PPT for the accounting functions. > > Still have some cards and the perfs and readers somewhere; must play with > them one day... > > [PVP: ] This is cruelty to animals! Is there ANY way you could dig up some > of these EPC and EPT cards for my collection/display? Talk to me about > postage, etc... > > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Van Peborgh" > To: "'Mike Stein'" > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 3:45 PM > Subject: RE: Odd punched cards > > >> Mike, >> >> 96-column cards I have, thank you. >> >> I used edge-punched cards to record scientific papers' details when I was >> doing research. Did any get used with computers, do you know? >> >> Many thanks, >> >> peter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mike Stein >> Sent: 23 April 2020 19:17 >> To: Peter Van Peborgh ; General Discussion: On-Topic >> Posts >> Subject: Re: Odd punched cards >> >> How about 96 column and EPC (Edge Punched) Cards? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Peter Van Peborgh via cctech" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 2:03 PM >> Subject: Odd punched cards >> >> >>> Guys, >>> >>> I got a positive response about the Port-A-Punch cards so no longer any >> need >>> to respond to this one. Very encouraging. >>> >>> Still looking for Jacquard cards and original Hollerith cards. Hope >> springs >>> eternal. >>> >>> peter >>> >>> || | | | | | | | | >>> Peter Van Peborgh >>> 62 St Mary's Rise >>> Writhlington Radstock >>> Somerset BA3 3PD >>> UK >>> 01761 439 234 >>> >>> "Our times are in God's wise and loving hands" >>> >>> || | | | | | | | | >>> >>> >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 9 12:13:57 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 18:13:57 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Ripple In-Reply-To: <5EB6DDEE.6020406@pico-systems.com> References: <008501d6261f$60a29e00$21e7da00$@ntlworld.com> <5EB6DDEE.6020406@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <008a01d62625$39c007e0$ad4017a0$@ntlworld.com> The spikes are 400mV. The probes are set to x10 and the scope is set for them to be x10. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Elson > Sent: 09 May 2020 17:45 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Ripple > > On 05/09/2020 11:32 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I have recently been trying to improve the ripple on the output of my > > MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 PSU because occasionally it would fry a memory > > module. I replaced a bunch of capacitors, some of which had started to leak. > > However, the ripple does not seem much better. There is a scope trace here: > > > > > > > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/microvax-3100-model-95-ps > > u-ripp > > le-after-re-capping.png > > > > > > > > Ch1 is the 12V output and Ch2 is the 5V output. I had an old RD53 > > connected as a dummy load. It is possible that the memory was breaking > > because of occasional spikes that are worse, but I don't know. Does that seem > OK? > > > > > These spikes are very likely not real, but a result of probe ground impedance. > There likely ARE some spikes and ripple, but not to the extent of the giant, > sharp vertical spikes. If you are using a X10 probe, does the 200 mV / div on > the scope trace reflect that attenuation? > > In other words, are the spikes 400 mV or 4 V? > > Jon From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat May 9 18:14:33 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:14:33 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Ripple In-Reply-To: <008501d6261f$60a29e00$21e7da00$@ntlworld.com> References: <008501d6261f$60a29e00$21e7da00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3B471066-07F7-414C-BB7F-AFD66A6C2BAE@shaw.ca> On 2020-May-09, at 9:32 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have recently been trying to improve the ripple on the output of my > MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 PSU because occasionally it would fry a memory > module. I replaced a bunch of capacitors, some of which had started to leak. > However, the ripple does not seem much better. There is a scope trace here: > > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/microvax-3100-model-95-psu-ripp > le-after-re-capping.png > > Ch1 is the 12V output and Ch2 is the 5V output. I had an old RD53 connected > as a dummy load. It is possible that the memory was breaking because of > occasional spikes that are worse, but I don't know. Does that seem OK? Two guesses come to mind, but a lot depends on, or greater insight might be gained from, knowing the design configuration of the power supply. The spikes are suggestive of ringing from a fast and undamped switching operation. Might be from switching of the primary-side driver, or from the switching of the secondary-side rectifiers in the conduction/non-conduction cycle. More scope observation and knowledge of the design might sort out whether the spikes are synchronous to the primary driver vs. the sec rectifiers. Guesses: - The snubbing/damping C/L/diode networks around the primary winding of the transformer. - The snubbing caps (usually) paralleling secondary-side rectifiers. As the spikes look to be heavier on the 5V circuitry, it may be those on the 12V output are 'just' induced reflections through the transformer from what's happening on the 5V circuitry. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat May 9 23:48:07 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 05:48:07 +0100 Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: <873055556.144066.1589043538804@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200509152316.B0E8318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <873055556.144066.1589043538804@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 5:59 PM Brian L. Stuart wrote: > If it's the one I'm thinking of, the game is called hexapawn, > though it's played on a 3x3 grid, like TTT. I've always > had a fond spot for that article. It was one of my inspirations > back when I did a lot of AI. I remember Martin Gardner writing on that too, I can't remember if it's the same article or not. I will have to go along my bookshelves... To keep this on-topic, I also remember an program for the HP67/97 to play Hexapawn, in the Games Pac 1 I think. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 10 01:04:36 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 23:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd book In-Reply-To: References: <20200509152316.B0E8318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <873055556.144066.1589043538804@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Martin Gardner column about teaching matchboxes to play tic-tac-toe was March 1962 Scientific American, "Mathematical Games: How to build a game-learning machine and then teach it to play and to win" In the novel "The Adolescence of P-1", by Thomas Joseph Ryan (1977), a college kid, fascinated by that article, implements an open-ended version on an IBM 360/30 at Waterloo [remember WATFOR?], with a goal of cracking additional machines through telecommunications links, and installing itself. It is, of course, unrealistic fiction to think that such a system could be implemented on 1970s 360s. with less than 4GB. Besides, Windows security is too good for it to install itself on modern systems. oolcay itay From steven at malikoff.com Sun May 10 02:42:07 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 17:42:07 +1000 Subject: Odd punched cards In-Reply-To: <42B459B098EE44FAB113AB6F7B5BC856@310e2> References: <000e01d61999$72768930$57639b90$@vanpeborgh.eu> <77DF09F3EC4C464F9319CCF7E37142C9@310e2> <002101d619a7$b2ec6d00$18c54700$@vanpeborgh.eu> <2263F580AF5F4CE7AB5DA2DF300069A1@310e2> <001901d625ec$60a25810$21e70830$@vanpeborgh.eu> <42B459B098EE44FAB113AB6F7B5BC856@310e2> Message-ID: <6eb3a6d9185bca1f785811f3507abf86.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Mike and Peter reckoned >> The systems that I'm familiar with that used EPCs were Burroughs 'E' series >> accounting computers; the readers and perforators handled both PPT and EPCs >> and the cards were a sort of random-access PPT. >> >> [PVP: ] I am having problems finding info on these two types of cards: EPT >> and EPC. Can you point me in the right direction? The paper tape reader for the SCM Typetronic 2816 could read a form of edge-punched card but presumably these weren't compatible with anything else apart from the ones it produced with its own 'Vertipunch' unit. See page 22 of the operator handbook: https://archive.org/details/scmtypetronic2816operatorhandbook/page/n21/mode/2up I do have this tape/EPC reader (no cards unfortunately) and can take some pics if anyone's interested. Steve. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 10 07:54:33 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 13:54:33 +0100 Subject: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply Message-ID: <00b801d626ca$27919570$76b4c050$@ntlworld.com> In fixing my PSU I managed to break the leads to the LED on the front of the PSU, probably through metal fatigue. I seem to remember people saying it is quite difficult to replace these, mainly because you can't get them out without breaking the holder. Is that right? Has anyone done this successfully and have any tips? Are there any recommendations for a replacement? If I remember correctly the LEDs used in those days were not as bright as modern ones and a modern one would end up being much brighter because of the higher voltage maybe? Thanks Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 10 08:56:28 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 14:56:28 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <00b801d626ca$27919570$76b4c050$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01RKPLGW7GZO8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Rob Jarratt wrote: > > In fixing my PSU I managed to break the leads to the LED on the front of the > PSU, probably through metal fatigue. > > > > I seem to remember people saying it is quite difficult to replace these, > mainly because you can't get them out without breaking the holder. Is that > right? Has anyone done this successfully and have any tips? > > Is this the green LED in a H7821 PSU? I managed to get one out of the holder with a bit of difficulty before I realised I could have left it in place and the board can just about get past it when the plug at the far end of the leads feeding it is plugged out from the board. As far as I recall, the holder is in two parts and I think the two parts have to be separated before the LED will come out of the holder or the holder will come out of the hole it is mounted in. > > Are there any recommendations for a replacement? If I remember correctly the > LEDs used in those days were not as bright as modern ones and a modern one > would end up being much brighter because of the higher voltage maybe? > > Maybe it would be possible to tack blobs of solder onto what's left of the leads on the original and use them to attach fine leads, digging out a small amount of the LED casing around the leads if necessary? Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > Thanks > > > > Rob > From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sun May 10 07:00:45 2020 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 14:00:45 +0200 Subject: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced Message-ID: Hi, > It it possible to get parts for a Digicomp? Mine needs some springs and > the thing that connects the clock to the whatever. I used rubber bands instead of springs. The article about 3D print DIY https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1477209 contains instructions how to bend the wire crank. regards, Joerg ?> >/I added a motor drive to my DIGI-COMP I, and wrote 4 web pages about /> >/that device. /> >//> >/See http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/ /> >//> >/or just the video https://youtu.be/D6GgxXRJXnw /> >// From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sun May 10 07:04:38 2020 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 14:04:38 +0200 Subject: DIGI-COMP 1 enhanced (Joerg Hoppe) Message-ID: <502c75df-2bf2-ad00-cb14-e854550cc38a@t-online.de> /Hi Michael, />>/I added a motor drive to my DIGI-COMP I, and wrote 4 web pages about />>/that device. />>//>>/See http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/ />>/or just the video https://youtu.be/D6GgxXRJXnw / > That is very cool! > The RICM has a DIGI-COMP, but we have not done much with it other than put > it on display. > > -- > Michael Thompson I attached the Arduino firmware and the "Bill Of Materials" with all 3D print files to http://www.retrocmp.com/articles/digi-comp-1/305-digi-comp-1-show-case-project So if you like ... kind regards, Joerg From stephenbuck at mac.com Sun May 10 14:29:53 2020 From: stephenbuck at mac.com (Stephen Buck) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 19:29:53 -0000 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise Message-ID: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise, for a PDP-11 restoration destined for a local computer museum in Boulder, Colorado. It's fine if it's not working - I'm happy to try and get it up and running. Thanks! Here's a link to the restoration blog: http://headspinlabs.wordpress.com From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 10 15:46:34 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 14:46:34 -0600 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't help you with the RL02... But I have MFM drives, experience using an MFM emulator (I have two running in my Rainbows), RX-50 drives and am just over in Brighton, CO. If nothing else, I have a DEC Rainbow and can format some diskettes for you if need be. In normal times, I'd be down for in-person debugging, but these, alas, are not normal times. Warner On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 1:30 PM Stephen Buck via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise, for a PDP-11 > restoration destined for a local computer museum in Boulder, Colorado. It's > fine if it's not working - I'm happy to try and get it up and running. > Thanks! > > > Here's a link to the restoration blog: > http://headspinlabs.wordpress.com > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 10 17:59:19 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 18:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise Message-ID: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Stephen Buck > Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise, for a > PDP-11 restoration destined for a local computer museum Well, there's this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264277971437 It's an RL01, not an RL02 as you were enquiring after, but RL02's are quite rare now - and the price isn't bad. Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun May 10 18:05:42 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 19:05:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: God, $140 is quite reasonable. I keep thinking of picking it up but then I realize I can read my RL01's with my RL02's if needed, then move the data to bigger disks. But RL01's were great for running RT11 and other base operating systems. C On 5/10/2020 6:59 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Stephen Buck > > > Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise, for a > > PDP-11 restoration destined for a local computer museum > > Well, there's this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264277971437 > > It's an RL01, not an RL02 as you were enquiring after, but RL02's are quite > rare now - and the price isn't bad. > > Noel > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun May 10 18:12:12 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 19:12:12 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <47342941-99df-95b4-4289-101246172da5@alembic.crystel.com> If you really want to fix an RL02 I have a pile of parts that equal a RL02. Good spindle, power wires were eaten by mice, good electronics, weird heads, good head servo system, good motor, etc. That way I'll be forced to get the RL01. To fill the void in my life. Where are you? On 5/10/2020 6:59 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Stephen Buck > > > Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise, for a > > PDP-11 restoration destined for a local computer museum > > Well, there's this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264277971437 > > It's an RL01, not an RL02 as you were enquiring after, but RL02's are quite > rare now - and the price isn't bad. > > Noel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 10 19:37:15 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:37:15 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 7:05 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > God, $140 is quite reasonable. Yes I think so too. > I keep thinking of picking it up but then > I realize I can read my RL01's with my RL02's if needed, then move the > data to bigger disks. If you have the version of the RL02 that can be jumpered for either RL01 or RL02 use, yes. I've seen people put switches on a plate under the lid (over the old brush area) so that you dismount an RL02K, flip the switches, mount an RL01K, then read it. One of the tricks is to be sure to write-protect the RL01 pack in a modified RL02. > But RL01's were great for running RT11 and other base operating systems. Yep. I got an RL01 in 1985 to use with an RL8A and my PDP-8/a, then it came in handy in 1987 when I got a gig where I needed my own PDP-11 to code at home and the RL01 was perfect for the boot volume (I borrowed an RL02 from my boss for the customer data volume). Plenty of room for the OS and my code. Fantastic drives both. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 10 19:38:50 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:38:50 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 6:59 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > ... but RL02's are quite rare now Are they? Since I have had several of them since the 90s, I've never tried to go buy more. What's rare to me is RL01/RL02 absolute air filters. Finding a way to repack the guts with new filter material would be fantastic. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun May 10 19:58:49 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:58:49 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I bought a pair of absolute filters for my RL02's. Good idea as one was so plugged the heads could not fly. C On 5/10/2020 8:38 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 6:59 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: >> ... but RL02's are quite rare now > > Are they? Since I have had several of them since the 90s, I've never > tried to go buy more. > > What's rare to me is RL01/RL02 absolute air filters. Finding a way to > repack the guts with new filter material would be fantastic. > > -ethan > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun May 10 20:12:14 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 21:12:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1322a880-98f8-1b5c-0b21-c0cbef56e6bb@alembic.crystel.com> > If you have the version of the RL02 that can be jumpered for either > RL01 or RL02 use, yes. I've seen people put switches on a plate under > the lid (over the old brush area) so that you dismount an RL02K, flip > the switches, mount an RL01K, then read it. One of the tricks is to > be sure to write-protect the RL01 pack in a modified RL02. That is a good idea. A DPDT switch could flip to RL01 and engage the write protect switch since I forget to do that. A lot. > Yep. I got an RL01 in 1985 to use with an RL8A and my PDP-8/a, then > it came in handy in 1987 when I got a gig where I needed my own PDP-11 > to code at home and the RL01 was perfect for the boot volume (I > borrowed an RL02 from my boss for the customer data volume). Plenty > of room for the OS and my code. Same here. I ran a pdp11/03 at home in college and upgraded from RX01's to an RL01. The speed was amazing and when I got a second one and an 11/23+ cpu I could run RSX11M and Decnet to connect to the school's network. Still they are a bit tempremental: My current pair of drives give a different count of errors even though I have tuned the amps to proper values on both of them. Bringing the value up more makes the errors go down, maybe I should just crank em up. But that will probably screw up writes. Hm. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 10 20:52:17 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 21:52:17 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: <1322a880-98f8-1b5c-0b21-c0cbef56e6bb@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1322a880-98f8-1b5c-0b21-c0cbef56e6bb@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:12 PM Chris Zach wrote: > > If you have the version of the RL02 that can be jumpered for either > > RL01 or RL02 use, yes... write-protect the RL01 pack in a modified RL02. > > That is a good idea. A DPDT switch could flip to RL01 and engage the > write protect switch since I forget to do that. A lot. Indeed. I haven't done the mod myself (though I might in the near future as I have a couple of RL01 packs to read out that are not near my RL01 drive) but ISTR it may take more than one switch. Just throw them all one way or the other and you should be fine. > > ... in 1985... PDP-11... the RL01 was perfect for the boot volume > > Same here. I ran a pdp11/03 at home in college and upgraded from RX01's > to an RL01. The speed was amazing and when I got a second one and an > 11/23+ cpu I could run RSX11M and Decnet to connect to the school's > network. Nice. Mine started out as an 11/23 (returned from a customer who bought it from us about eight years previous). It came in a BA11-N box with KDF11, memory, a DLV11J, and I think an LPV11. I had to buy an RLV11 ($100 at the time) and I eventually got an RXV11 for cheap. It was a fantastic single-user RT-11 development machine. The target for my code was a $50,000 PDP-11/73 with a Fujitsu Eagle and 4MB of RAM running TSX-11. I was always happy that I spent less than $500 outfitting myself to write programs for a machine that cost 100 times as much. > Still they are a bit tempremental: My current pair of drives give a > different count of errors even though I have tuned the amps to proper > values on both of them. Bringing the value up more makes the errors go > down, maybe I should just crank em up. Hmm... That's something I've never had to fiddle with. -ethan From stephenbuck at mac.com Sun May 10 23:02:00 2020 From: stephenbuck at mac.com (Stephen Buck) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:02:00 -0000 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IExvb2tpbmcgZm9yIGEgcGFpciBvZiBERUMgUkwwMiBkcml2ZXMsIHdv?= =?utf-8?B?cmtpbmcgb3Igb3RoZXJ3aXNl?= Message-ID: <61c87501-1447-45a6-ac8d-681910638833@me.com> Hi Chris, I?m located in Boulder, Colorado. I?m fine with an RL02 that doesn?t work. If it can?t be fixed it can always occupy space in the rack. This is going into a museum and I might end up using an emulated drive behind the scenes for day-to-day use. Steve ? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 11 06:59:00 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 07:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-6 fan Message-ID: <20200511115900.6CA5018C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I guess someone: https://www.ebay.com/itm/324151272982 is a majot PDP-6 fan.... Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon May 11 07:18:32 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:18:32 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: References: <20200510225919.0BECB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 5/10/20 8:37 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 7:05 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> God, $140 is quite reasonable. > > Yes I think so too. And when I think of how many of them I threw out because I couldn't even give them away!! bill From bill.gunshannon at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:35:50 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at gmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:35:50 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Message-ID: <438836db-74c9-5ca8-58c5-47a1d45cedde@gmail.com> I have never seen one mentioned but is there anyone here with an interest in these? I found a still sealed copy of the Software Development Set Ver. 2.0. What's it worth? bill From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon May 11 10:20:46 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:20:46 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 In-Reply-To: <438836db-74c9-5ca8-58c5-47a1d45cedde@gmail.com> References: <438836db-74c9-5ca8-58c5-47a1d45cedde@gmail.com> Message-ID: <25592ddb-12a2-53d8-fe76-51cbd0cd1b69@ieee.org> You might find someone on an Olivetti forum who is interested :-) On 11/05/2020 08:35, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I have never seen one mentioned but is there anyone? here > with an interest in these?? I found a still sealed copy of > the Software Development Set Ver. 2.0.? What's it worth? > > bill -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From sales at elecplus.com Mon May 11 10:25:20 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 10:25:20 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 In-Reply-To: <438836db-74c9-5ca8-58c5-47a1d45cedde@gmail.com> References: <438836db-74c9-5ca8-58c5-47a1d45cedde@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00be01d627a8$62af1a40$280d4ec0$@com> I have had these before. There ARE collectors out there for them! Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 7:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: AT&T PC 6300 I have never seen one mentioned but is there anyone here with an interest in these? I found a still sealed copy of the Software Development Set Ver. 2.0. What's it worth? bill -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Mon May 11 12:38:10 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:38:10 -0500 Subject: Compaq opal 15" monitor Message-ID: <00da01d627ba$f10b0580$d3211080$@com> Someone asked for one of these a long time ago. I have one tested and working; needs a good cleaning. Make offer; local pickup only. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From Driverless at protonmail.com Mon May 11 16:09:47 2020 From: Driverless at protonmail.com (Bryan Longram) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:09:47 +0000 Subject: Wanting some help with a PDP-8/a Message-ID: I acquired a non-functional PDP-8/A several months ago and in that time I've replaced all the outwardly damaged parts and have gotten the machine to power on with no issues. However the problem I've been having now that I can't quite seem to pin down is that every time I power the machine the address field is displayed as 07777 and the value field is displayed as 7777. Attempting to change addresses or the value of the address doesn't work as I can enter the value just fine but upon entering the Load Address button it defaults back to being all sevens. I've made sure the pins on the CPU board are set so it should start at address 0, the advanced options are also all turned off and as far as I can tell there's nothing out of the ordinary with the pin settings on the IO board. I'm fairly certain at this point that the issue is with the Programmer's Panel but I'm not 100% sure. I've done some further testing using advice I got from users over at the Vintage Computer Forum and SR and LSR work as intended, I can enter a value into SR and then view it at a later time. Something interesting I did find was while checking over the CPU I was looking at the switches on it and while S1-1 was set as expected S1-7 was also on which is the CPU autostart disabled feature. Upon powering the computer back on after turning S1-7 off both the ADDRS and DISP displays show a single 0. I thought I was on the right track though now the panel doesn't work as if the panel lock was toggle even though it's not, not even the read functions and SR are working. Switching S1-7 back on reverts the problem back to what it was before and far as I know all the voltages on the power supply are correct. Any help would be appreciated, even if it's just a push in the right direction. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:41:18 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:41:18 -0400 Subject: Wanting some help with a PDP-8/a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The first thing that comes to mind on the 8/a is whether or not the front panel (key press is what I assume you are using, cables are plugged into the board the proper way. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:10 PM Bryan Longram via cctalk wrote: > > I acquired a non-functional PDP-8/A several months ago and in that time I've replaced all the outwardly damaged parts and have gotten the machine to power on with no issues. However the problem I've been having now that I can't quite seem to pin down is that every time I power the machine the address field is displayed as 07777 and the value field is displayed as 7777. Attempting to change addresses or the value of the address doesn't work as I can enter the value just fine but upon entering the Load Address button it defaults back to being all sevens. I've made sure the pins on the CPU board are set so it should start at address 0, the advanced options are also all turned off and as far as I can tell there's nothing out of the ordinary with the pin settings on the IO board. > > I'm fairly certain at this point that the issue is with the Programmer's Panel but I'm not 100% sure. > > I've done some further testing using advice I got from users over at the Vintage Computer Forum and SR and LSR work as intended, I can enter a value into SR and then view it at a later time. Something interesting I did find was while checking over the CPU I was looking at the switches on it and while S1-1 was set as expected S1-7 was also on which is the CPU autostart disabled feature. > > Upon powering the computer back on after turning S1-7 off both the ADDRS and DISP displays show a single 0. I thought I was on the right track though now the panel doesn't work as if the panel lock was toggle even though it's not, not even the read functions and SR are working. Switching S1-7 back on reverts the problem back to what it was before and far as I know all the voltages on the power supply are correct. Any help would be appreciated, even if it's just a push in the right direction. From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:53:02 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:53:02 -0500 Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander Message-ID: https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). -Eric From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 11 21:03:05 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:03:05 -0500 Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: kool On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:53 PM Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY > > I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). > > -Eric > From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon May 11 21:06:21 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 02:06:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465F0206ABBB52C2.ABB37243-5BBD-4BA9-BF7C-DA78D4220AC9@mail.outlook.com> Yes that?s very cool. Funny how the bootstrap didn?t take the first time even though you entered it correctly. Rich Get Outlook for iOS On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM -0400, "Adrian Stoness via cctalk" wrote: kool On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:53 PM Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY > > I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). > > -Eric > From boris at summitclinic.com Mon May 11 21:57:10 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:57:10 -0800 Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200512031214.4074127518@mx1.ezwind.net> Nice how machines from that era were well made enough to still work. Remember that Lunar Lander game from about 1970. Version I played was written in FOCAL and run on a TSS-8. Should try it out on some kids who think they're great gamers and see how fast they catch on - once we were able to land without crashing we'd see who could come down at lowest speed or have most fuel left over after a successful landing. >https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY > >I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). > >-Eric From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:06:31 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 23:06:31 -0500 Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander In-Reply-To: <465F0206ABBB52C2.ABB37243-5BBD-4BA9-BF7C-DA78D4220AC9@mail.outlook.com> References: <465F0206ABBB52C2.ABB37243-5BBD-4BA9-BF7C-DA78D4220AC9@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: And I had entered it countless times before, and made mistakes a fair number of times, but as far as I recall it had never worked after just checking all the memory addresses except for that time you see captured in video *shrug* This machine is very thermally sensitive, I assume it was just a transient thermal issue. -Eric On Mon, May 11, 2020, 21:06 Richard Cini wrote: > Yes that?s very cool. Funny how the bootstrap didn?t take the first time > even though you entered it correctly. > > Rich > > Get Outlook for iOS > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM -0400, "Adrian Stoness via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > kool >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:53 PM Eric Moore via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> > https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY >> > >> > I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). >> > >> > -Eric >> > >> >> From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:15:55 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:15:55 -0700 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm restoring a Xerox Alto and I started going over the system's Diablo 30 drive. The heads are in bad shape; the bottom one is actually missing both parts of the erase poles (so the black portion of the head no longer makes a "t", it's just a black line). This means the head (in addition to not being able to erase) also won't float due to the head having small cavities in them. The upper head looks a little better but I'd love to find a set of upper and lower heads if anyone has spares. Then I get to learn how to align these things. Thanks! - Josh From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue May 12 00:18:57 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 22:18:57 -0700 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/11/2020 9:15 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm restoring a Xerox Alto and I started going over the system's Diablo 30 > drive. The heads are in bad shape; the bottom one is actually missing both > parts of the erase poles (so the black portion of the head no longer makes > a "t", it's just a black line). This means the head (in addition to not > being able to erase) also won't float due to the head having small cavities > in them. The upper head looks a little better but I'd love to find a set > of upper and lower heads if anyone has spares. This guy has had several of many of the types of heads you need. This is for a Microdata or Western Dynex of either the 2.5m / platter or 5m / platter variety.? Might bug him MICRODATA-PN-20012187-3-NSN-1560-00-121-8703-DISK-HEAD-NEW-ORIG-BX-selectvintage/ https://www.ebay.com/itm/192169612454 Here's the list of stuff he has with all the heads.? There may be equivalents in there, don't know. https://www.ebay.com/sch/Computers-Tablets-Networking/58058/m.html?item=192169612454&hash=item2cbe3394a6%3Ag%3AmvIAAOSwmCVZAP-S&_ssn=selectvintage&_sac=1 selectvintage is vendor. > > Then I get to learn how to align these things. I've got one that would fit an RL02 and possibly an RL01, does work with Dynex or Microdata. you might have to find an exerciser, and option the drive to the # of sectors. You can get it playing with a recorded but expendable pack.? That is with a Microdata drive.? Maybe someone can also record some ones and zeros for the amp calibrations.? I don't know if they are doing the embedded servo thing or not, or the drive might choke on something. I've gotten them going by setting up the basic drive function w/o alignment, so it can pass a formatting tests (again, not with embedded servo) on a blank pack. Then you use the tester and the alignment and analog section with a data pack (not necessarily alignment) that has good data on it.? You can get by w/o an alignment pack that way. thanks jim > > Thanks! > - Josh > From djg at pdp8online.com Mon May 11 19:34:00 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:34:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200512003400.GA24560@hugin3> On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 07:29:53PM -0000, Stephen Buck wrote: > Looking for a pair of DEC RL02 drives, working or otherwise, for a PDP-11 restoration destined for a local computer museum in Boulder, Colorado. It's fine if it's not working - I'm happy to try and get it up and running. Thanks! > > masterb2014 at gmail.com has RL drives. Looks like most may be RL01's. He is also desiring to move whole racks vs parting them out. Ebay is https://www.ebay.com/sch/masterpequa/m.html though currently doesn't have any PDP-8 stuff up. He has a lot more pre and post Omnibus equipment that he will be selling in various condition. Keep in mind he is not a PDP-8 expert in any questions. Equipment is in Long Island. From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 12 08:10:29 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:10:29 -0500 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/11/2020 11:15 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm restoring a Xerox Alto and I started going over the system's Diablo 30 > drive. The heads are in bad shape; the bottom one is actually missing both > parts of the erase poles (so the black portion of the head no longer makes > a "t", it's just a black line). This means the head (in addition to not > being able to erase) also won't float due to the head having small cavities > in them. The upper head looks a little better but I'd love to find a set > of upper and lower heads if anyone has spares. > > Then I get to learn how to align these things. > > Thanks! > - Josh > I don't know if they would be compatible or not, but my inventory lists Diablo part number 15428, Model 31 / RK03 Carriage + Heads Assembly. (Perhaps I didn't want to remove the heads themselves). I suspect that I got the part number off the assembly itself somewhere - I don't have record of any illustrated parts breakdown for the diablo drive in my manual database. As I seem to have two of these assemblies, you could certainly have one of them, say for something like shipping plus $25. I don't know the differences between the model 30 and model 31 - but as the capacity of the model 31 was apparently twice that of the model 30 (2.5MB vs 1.25MB) - with both being referred to as Series 30, with the model 30 apparently short-lived production wise. The Series 30 maintenance manual, on the other hand, lists "Standard" and "HI-Density" of 12 million bits and 24 millions bits, respectively. >From what I read of the Alto online, its disk capacity was 2.5MB - implying the drive is a model 31 / hi density. I don't remember now if these parts I have were from drives originally on a DEC or DG system. If they really were from RK03's, then they would be the high density flavor. The box they are in are off-site in my storage unit (but well stored), and I could retrieve them in a day or so if you are interested, but at present I don't know if this is the entire assembly shown on page 5-3 of the maintenance manual, or just a portion. PS: I seem to recall a "Curious Marc" YouTube video featuring these beasties along with the Alto they were part of. JRJ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue May 12 09:10:25 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:10:25 -0400 Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander In-Reply-To: <20200512031214.4074127518@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20200512031214.4074127518@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1e644a46-ef7e-b382-af4a-c4a6356c99d6@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-05-11 10:57 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > Nice how machines from that era were well made enough to still work. Eric spared us video of what was probably months of restoration to make it work as well as new. Lovely video, beautiful machine. Thanks for posting. Are the tapes imaged and online? Watching you handle them was anxiety inducing :) --Toby > Remember that Lunar Lander game from about 1970.? Version I played was > written in FOCAL and run on a TSS-8.? Should try it out on some kids who > think they're great gamers and see how fast they catch on - once we were > able to land without crashing we'd see who could come down at lowest > speed or have most fuel left over after a successful landing. > >> https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY >> >> I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). >> >> -Eric > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 12 09:26:04 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 07:26:04 -0700 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> On 5/12/20 6:10 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > I don't remember now if these parts I have were from drives originally > on a DEC or DG system. The easy way to tell is the low density heads have metal instead of ceramic disks. If anyone has the older metal style, Carl Claunch is trying to find some. From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Tue May 12 09:35:02 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:35:02 -0500 Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander In-Reply-To: <1e644a46-ef7e-b382-af4a-c4a6356c99d6@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20200512031214.4074127518@mx1.ezwind.net> <1e644a46-ef7e-b382-af4a-c4a6356c99d6@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: There are known backup copies of all my tapes. I hope to acquire a new reader/punch soon to put my tapes online. -Eric On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 9:10 AM Toby Thain wrote: > On 2020-05-11 10:57 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > > Nice how machines from that era were well made enough to still work. > > > Eric spared us video of what was probably months of restoration to make > it work as well as new. > > Lovely video, beautiful machine. Thanks for posting. > > Are the tapes imaged and online? Watching you handle them was anxiety > inducing :) > > --Toby > > > > > Remember that Lunar Lander game from about 1970. Version I played was > > written in FOCAL and run on a TSS-8. Should try it out on some kids who > > think they're great gamers and see how fast they catch on - once we were > > able to land without crashing we'd see who could come down at lowest > > speed or have most fuel left over after a successful landing. > > > >> https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY > >> > >> I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). > >> > >> -Eric > > > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 12 10:48:32 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 17:48:32 +0200 Subject: SEL 810A running lunar lander In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 03:53, Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > > https://youtu.be/L743MjJthHY > > I recently got my SEL 810A working. I hope you guys enjoy the video :). Very nifty indeed. Shared with the VCC on FB so you may see a few more viewers from there! :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From stephenbuck at mac.com Tue May 12 13:45:29 2020 From: stephenbuck at mac.com (Stephen Buck) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:45:29 -0000 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IExvb2tpbmcgZm9yIGEgcGFpciBvZiBERUMgUkwwMiBkcml2ZXMsIHdv?= =?utf-8?B?cmtpbmcgb3Igb3RoZXJ3aXNl?= Message-ID: <2d65a943-9f6f-4c39-93f7-f8fde127fb26@me.com> Thanks for the lead David, I'll email him to see what he has. Steve From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:10:59 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:10:59 -0400 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. Message-ID: Turns out the "The Director" tape reader I purchased last week was defective and I got a refund. So I thought I'd try my hand at the FANUC TAPE READER A860. I may need to make a serial cable (?) to connect from the internal connector don't know yet. Or maybe the internal 50-pin port from the photos is for the punch. Don't know yet, thus the need for the manual. I checked bitsavers.org but there was no manual there, anyone here have a PDF or URL of the PDF for the FACIT tape reader A860-0056-T020? Thanks in advance. Bill Degnan From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 12 11:12:14 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:12:14 -0400 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I checked bitsavers.org but there was no manual there, anyone here have a > PDF or URL of the PDF for the FACIT tape reader A860-0056-T020? > Sorry FANUC not "FACIT" b From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 12 12:16:28 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:16:28 -0500 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EBAD9EC.2060806@pico-systems.com> On 05/12/2020 11:10 AM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > Turns out the "The Director" tape reader I purchased last week was > defective and I got a refund. So I thought I'd try my hand at the FANUC > TAPE READER A860. I may need to make a serial cable (?) to connect from > the internal connector don't know yet. Or maybe the internal 50-pin port > from the photos is for the punch. Don't know yet, thus the need for the > manual. > > I checked bitsavers.org but there was no manual there, anyone here have a > PDF or URL of the PDF for the FACIT tape reader A860-0056-T020? > > A860 is a Fanuc part number, not Facit. So, if Facit made the reader, you should look for another part number somewhere. Fanuc, way back when, did make excellent manuals with full schematics, so there might be a schematic available somewhere in a huge book of Fanuc schematics for that vintage machine. but, you'd need to know about what vintage of Fanuc to look for. Jon From rickb at bensene.com Tue May 12 12:59:51 2020 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:59:51 -0700 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> Bill D. wrote: > > So I thought I'd try my hand at the FANUC TAPE READER A860. I may need to make a serial cable (?) to connect from > the internal connector don't know yet. Or maybe the internal 50-pin port > from the photos is for the punch. Don't know yet, thus the need for the > manual. > Fanuc was in the business of making NC and CNC controls for machining centers. I suspect that Fanuc purchased the paper tape reader assembly through an OEM agreement with a peripheral company that specialized in making such devices rather than designing one of their own, though it is possible. You might very carefully look around the unit to see if there are any signs of identification of the original equipment manufacturer...a company like Facit, Decitek, Friden, Roytron, Digital Equipment, Creed, Teletype, etc. If you can find out the original manufacturer, it might be easier to find data on the tape reader. -Rick From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 12 15:36:12 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 13:36:12 -0700 Subject: unibus scsi board Message-ID: <22ef3079-1769-5e4e-c9b2-18ef2b002a4e@bitsavers.org> mislabeled as qbus https://www.ebay.com/itm/143603725400 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 12 15:33:25 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 13:33:25 -0700 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> They made their own, and it is very definitely a Japanese design You have to be careful with the motors, many are 220 though it looks like they are 100v in the pictures of that model on the web I went through the excercise of trying to find reader schematics a couple of years ago for Japanese CNC readers and never really found anything down to the PCB level You also need to be careful that the pinch rollers haven't gone soft From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 12 15:42:27 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 16:42:27 -0400 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the 50-pin port is the output port. https://www.ebay.com/itm/GUARANTEED-GOOD-USED-FANUC-TAPE-READER-A860-0056-T020/392104833775?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Bill On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:33 PM Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > They made their own, and it is very definitely a Japanese design > You have to be careful with the motors, many are 220 though it looks like > they are 100v in the pictures of that model > on the web > > I went through the excercise of trying to find reader schematics a couple > of years ago for Japanese CNC readers and > never really found anything down to the PCB level > > You also need to be careful that the pinch rollers haven't gone soft > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 12 15:47:36 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 13:47:36 -0700 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/12/20 1:42 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > Al, > Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the 50-pin port is the output port. > ? there isn't a manual shown the 50 pin connector is the I/O you can find descriptions of the pinout online from people making paper tape reader replacement devices From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 12 15:59:52 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 16:59:52 -0400 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Not expecting a manual (but I did ask), looking to see if anyone has one, I.have been searching Bill On Tue, May 12, 2020, 4:55 PM Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > On 5/12/20 1:42 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Al, > > Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the > 50-pin port is the output port. > > > > ? there isn't a manual shown > > the 50 pin connector is the I/O > you can find descriptions of the pinout online from people making paper > tape reader replacement devices > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 12 16:47:24 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 22:47:24 +0100 Subject: Has My VAXmate Flyback Transformer Failed? Message-ID: <013b01d628a6$ec7c9c80$c575d580$@ntlworld.com> I have been looking at the flyback transformer from my VAXmate. I think it could have failed but I can't be completely sure. I have posted a description here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/05/12/vaxmate-flyback-transformer/ Can anyone offer an opinion? Thanks Rob From macro at linux-mips.org Tue May 12 20:40:59 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 02:40:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <01RKPLGW7GZO8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RKPLGW7GZO8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 May 2020, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > I seem to remember people saying it is quite difficult to replace these, > > mainly because you can't get them out without breaking the holder. Is that > > right? Has anyone done this successfully and have any tips? > > Is this the green LED in a H7821 PSU? I managed to get one out of the holder > with a bit of difficulty before I realised I could have left it in place and > the board can just about get past it when the plug at the far end of the leads > feeding it is plugged out from the board. If the holder is the same as with the H7826 PSU, then it's a generic part still manufactured. I bought whatever was the minimum quantity sold by Farnell when I broke one along with the LED a few years ago. I still have a few available and I could post one set once I am back to my UK home (which is given the current situation regrettably not going to happen anytime soon). Otherwise you can order it yourself: . > > Are there any recommendations for a replacement? If I remember correctly the > > LEDs used in those days were not as bright as modern ones and a modern one > > would end up being much brighter because of the higher voltage maybe? > > Maybe it would be possible to tack blobs of solder onto what's left of the > leads on the original and use them to attach fine leads, digging out a small > amount of the LED casing around the leads if necessary? I chose an LED matching the original colour, also of the case, as closely as possible: , but still haven't installed it (well, ahem, I need to fix the PSU itself first), so I can't comment on the result. I could post one of those along with the holder if needed (subject to the condition noted above). An LED will dim with use, so you may not be able to closely match a worn one with a brand new part, but I suppose you don't actually need to be *that* exact with your equipment, do you? Otherwise you can always put a resistor in series to dim the light produced. HTH, Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 13 01:23:03 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 07:23:03 +0100 Subject: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <01RKPLGW7GZO8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <016301d628ee$f6931490$e3b93db0$@ntlworld.com> That's fantastic Maciej! I often buy from Farnell, so there is no issue with getting those parts myself. When I have accumulated enough wants to warrant an order I will get them. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Maciej W. Rozycki > via cctalk > Sent: 13 May 2020 02:41 > To: Peter Coghlan ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply > > On Sun, 10 May 2020, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > I seem to remember people saying it is quite difficult to replace > > > these, mainly because you can't get them out without breaking the > > > holder. Is that right? Has anyone done this successfully and have any tips? > > > > Is this the green LED in a H7821 PSU? I managed to get one out of the > > holder with a bit of difficulty before I realised I could have left it > > in place and the board can just about get past it when the plug at the > > far end of the leads feeding it is plugged out from the board. > > If the holder is the same as with the H7826 PSU, then it's a generic part still > manufactured. I bought whatever was the minimum quantity sold by Farnell > when I broke one along with the LED a few years ago. I still have a few > available and I could post one set once I am back to my UK home (which is > given the current situation regrettably not going to happen anytime soon). > Otherwise you can order it yourself: > 5mm-led/dp/8576378>. > > > > Are there any recommendations for a replacement? If I remember > > > correctly the LEDs used in those days were not as bright as modern > > > ones and a modern one would end up being much brighter because of the > higher voltage maybe? > > > > Maybe it would be possible to tack blobs of solder onto what's left of > > the leads on the original and use them to attach fine leads, digging > > out a small amount of the LED casing around the leads if necessary? > > I chose an LED matching the original colour, also of the case, as closely as > possible: > , but still > haven't installed it (well, ahem, I need to fix the PSU itself first), so I can't > comment on the result. I could post one of those along with the holder if > needed (subject to the condition noted above). > > An LED will dim with use, so you may not be able to closely match a worn one > with a brand new part, but I suppose you don't actually need to be > *that* exact with your equipment, do you? Otherwise you can always put a > resistor in series to dim the light produced. > > HTH, > > Maciej From steven at malikoff.com Tue May 12 17:26:47 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 08:26:47 +1000 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the 50-pin > port is the output port. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/GUARANTEED-GOOD-USED-FANUC-TAPE-READER-A860-0056-T020/392104833775?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Perhaps try the IndustryArena CNC forum at https://www.cnczone.com/ they have some FANUC postings there at the moment. Steve. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:43:26 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 17:43:26 -0500 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: check on mr plc forums On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:00 PM Bill Degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Not expecting a manual (but I did ask), looking to see if anyone has one, > I.have been searching > Bill > > On Tue, May 12, 2020, 4:55 PM Al Kossow via cctech > wrote: > > > On 5/12/20 1:42 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > > Al, > > > Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the > > 50-pin port is the output port. > > > > > > > ? there isn't a manual shown > > > > the 50 pin connector is the I/O > > you can find descriptions of the pinout online from people making paper > > tape reader replacement devices > > > > > > > > > From bob at jfcl.com Tue May 12 19:12:24 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 17:12:24 -0700 Subject: DS20E power supply question Message-ID: <00fd01d628bb$2dcc7de0$896579a0$@com> I have a DS20E Alpha machine. It's pretty fully configured, with two 666 MHz CPUs, 4GB RAM and 4x10K SCSI drives. In other words, it's a real power hog. It has three power supply modules installed, and if I understand the configuration rules then at least two should be required to run the machine and the third is a hot spare. But, when do SHOW POWER at the SRM prompt, I get P00>show power Status Power Supply 0 * BAD * Power Supply 1 not present Power Supply 2 not present System Fan 0 good System Fan 1 * BAD * CPU Fans good Temperature good What? If I believe that then I have no functioning power supplies installed?!? At this point I should mention that the machine boots VMS and runs just fine. Obviously something is not telling me the truth. Does anybody know what would cause this? BTW, what do the red LEDs on the front of the power supply modules mean? Is LED ON a good thing (i.e. power OK) or a bad thing (i.e. fault)? FWIW, none of the LEDs on my three power supplies is on. Oh, and it's right about System fan #1 - one of the fans is not running. I don't know if it's seized up, or if it's related to the power supply issue. Thanks, Bob From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 12 22:36:23 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 23:36:23 -0400 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Following up on the results of my searching around. The FANUC A860 reader with A20B controller (the normal set up) has a 50 pin output port. There is a device one can buy that receives the signal from the FANUC's 50-pin port and converts to into 25-pin RS232. The device is called a behind the tape reader or BTR. There are models of BTR made for FANUC. I found the Memex MX1000 and MX1100, Sanyo RLC174 and DOSTEK 440A. I am sure there are more. So...one needs some sort of BTR to make the FANUC A860 (also referred to as FANUC 6) connect to a PC for the purpose of archiving papertapes. There are vendors who sell these used/new. fanucparts.com/btr/ texas-industrial.com and others. Bill On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:55 PM Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > On 5/12/20 1:42 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Al, > > Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the > 50-pin port is the output port. > > > > ? there isn't a manual shown > > the 50 pin connector is the I/O > you can find descriptions of the pinout online from people making paper > tape reader replacement devices > > > > From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 13 02:19:09 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:19:09 +0200 Subject: Has My VAXmate Flyback Transformer Failed? In-Reply-To: <013b01d628a6$ec7c9c80$c575d580$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d628a6$ec7c9c80$c575d580$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200513071909.GA4149@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have been looking at the flyback transformer from my VAXmate. I think it > could have failed but I can't be completely sure. I have posted a > description here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/05/12/vaxmate-flyback-transformer/ > > > > Can anyone offer an opinion? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob Hi Rob, I think that the FBT is bad and it is the cause for overloding that diode in the PSU. This is an usual scenario for old Monitor Hardware, nothing new. The Epoxy in the FBT gets hard and brittle over the time and therefore it cracks internally..causing winding shorts or opens. Look if you can get an replacement FBT somwehre on the surplus market. Please post all the numbers on the FBT-Label..if any exists. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 13 02:26:24 2020 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 02:26:24 -0500 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have Diablo 30 or 31 and 2 RK11-C backplanes here. If anyone here is interested, please contact me off list. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 13 03:03:17 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:03:17 +0100 Subject: Has My VAXmate Flyback Transformer Failed? In-Reply-To: <20200513071909.GA4149@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <013b01d628a6$ec7c9c80$c575d580$@ntlworld.com> <20200513071909.GA4149@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <017701d628fc$f6320070$e2960150$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe via > cctalk > Sent: 13 May 2020 08:19 > To: Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Subject: Re: Has My VAXmate Flyback Transformer Failed? > > Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I have been looking at the flyback transformer from my VAXmate. I > > think it could have failed but I can't be completely sure. I have > > posted a description here: > > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/05/12/vaxmate-flyback-transformer/ > > > > > > > > Can anyone offer an opinion? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > Hi Rob, > > I think that the FBT is bad and it is the cause for overloding that diode in the > PSU. > This is an usual scenario for old Monitor Hardware, nothing new. > The Epoxy in the FBT gets hard and brittle over the time and therefore it cracks > internally..causing winding shorts or opens. > Look if you can get an replacement FBT somwehre on the surplus market. > Please post all the numbers on the FBT-Label..if any exists. > I have already tried that but I will try again. For information the label says: 15-27188-01 TAI-HO TH-1802B Thanks Rob > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de > Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From nw.johnson at ieee.org Wed May 13 05:29:38 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 06:29:38 -0400 Subject: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <016301d628ee$f6931490$e3b93db0$@ntlworld.com> References: <01RKPLGW7GZO8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <016301d628ee$f6931490$e3b93db0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2da14005-ac72-9f94-12f5-a020a80c1574@ieee.org> If all you need it that little mounting collet, I have a dozen or so of them somewhere for the price of postage from Canada! cheers, Nigel On 13/05/2020 02:23, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > That's fantastic Maciej! I often buy from Farnell, so there is no issue with > getting those parts myself. When I have accumulated enough wants to warrant > an order I will get them. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki >> via cctalk >> Sent: 13 May 2020 02:41 >> To: Peter Coghlan ; General Discussion: On-Topic >> and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply >> >> On Sun, 10 May 2020, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> I seem to remember people saying it is quite difficult to replace >>>> these, mainly because you can't get them out without breaking the >>>> holder. Is that right? Has anyone done this successfully and have any > tips? >>> Is this the green LED in a H7821 PSU? I managed to get one out of the >>> holder with a bit of difficulty before I realised I could have left it >>> in place and the board can just about get past it when the plug at the >>> far end of the leads feeding it is plugged out from the board. >> If the holder is the same as with the H7826 PSU, then it's a generic part > still >> manufactured. I bought whatever was the minimum quantity sold by Farnell >> when I broke one along with the LED a few years ago. I still have a few >> available and I could post one set once I am back to my UK home (which is >> given the current situation regrettably not going to happen anytime soon). >> Otherwise you can order it yourself: >> > 5mm-led/dp/8576378>. >> >>>> Are there any recommendations for a replacement? If I remember >>>> correctly the LEDs used in those days were not as bright as modern >>>> ones and a modern one would end up being much brighter because of the >> higher voltage maybe? >>> Maybe it would be possible to tack blobs of solder onto what's left of >>> the leads on the original and use them to attach fine leads, digging >>> out a small amount of the LED casing around the leads if necessary? >> I chose an LED matching the original colour, also of the case, as closely > as >> possible: >> , but > still >> haven't installed it (well, ahem, I need to fix the PSU itself first), so > I can't >> comment on the result. I could post one of those along with the holder if >> needed (subject to the condition noted above). >> >> An LED will dim with use, so you may not be able to closely match a worn > one >> with a brand new part, but I suppose you don't actually need to be >> *that* exact with your equipment, do you? Otherwise you can always put a >> resistor in series to dim the light produced. >> >> HTH, >> >> Maciej -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 13 06:33:12 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:33:12 +0100 Subject: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <2da14005-ac72-9f94-12f5-a020a80c1574@ieee.org> References: <01RKPLGW7GZO8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <016301d628ee$f6931490$e3b93db0$@ntlworld.com> <2da14005-ac72-9f94-12f5-a020a80c1574@ieee.org> Message-ID: <000701d6291a$49723bc0$dc56b340$@ntlworld.com> Thanks for the offer, but I am in the UK. I have a few bits I need so I can order these parts soon. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson via > cctalk > Sent: 13 May 2020 11:30 > To: Rob Jarratt via cctalk > Subject: Re: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply > > If all you need it that little mounting collet, I have a dozen or so of them > somewhere for the price of postage from Canada! > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > On 13/05/2020 02:23, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > That's fantastic Maciej! I often buy from Farnell, so there is no > > issue with getting those parts myself. When I have accumulated enough > > wants to warrant an order I will get them. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Maciej W. > > Rozycki > >> via cctalk > >> Sent: 13 May 2020 02:41 > >> To: Peter Coghlan ; General Discussion: > >> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply > >> > >> On Sun, 10 May 2020, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>>> I seem to remember people saying it is quite difficult to replace > >>>> these, mainly because you can't get them out without breaking the > >>>> holder. Is that right? Has anyone done this successfully and have > >>>> any > > tips? > >>> Is this the green LED in a H7821 PSU? I managed to get one out of > >>> the holder with a bit of difficulty before I realised I could have > >>> left it in place and the board can just about get past it when the > >>> plug at the far end of the leads feeding it is plugged out from the board. > >> If the holder is the same as with the H7826 PSU, then it's a > >> generic part > > still > >> manufactured. I bought whatever was the minimum quantity sold by > >> Farnell when I broke one along with the LED a few years ago. I still > >> have a few available and I could post one set once I am back to my UK > >> home (which is given the current situation regrettably not going to happen > anytime soon). > >> Otherwise you can order it yourself: > >> >> - > >> 5mm-led/dp/8576378>. > >> > >>>> Are there any recommendations for a replacement? If I remember > >>>> correctly the LEDs used in those days were not as bright as modern > >>>> ones and a modern one would end up being much brighter because of > >>>> the > >> higher voltage maybe? > >>> Maybe it would be possible to tack blobs of solder onto what's left > >>> of the leads on the original and use them to attach fine leads, > >>> digging out a small amount of the LED casing around the leads if > necessary? > >> I chose an LED matching the original colour, also of the case, as > >> closely > > as > >> possible: > >> , > >> but > > still > >> haven't installed it (well, ahem, I need to fix the PSU itself > >> first), so > > I can't > >> comment on the result. I could post one of those along with the > >> holder if needed (subject to the condition noted above). > >> > >> An LED will dim with use, so you may not be able to closely match a > >> worn > > one > >> with a brand new part, but I suppose you don't actually need to be > >> *that* exact with your equipment, do you? Otherwise you can always > >> put a resistor in series to dim the light produced. > >> > >> HTH, > >> > >> Maciej > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE, MCSE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me > to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of > system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this > message > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed May 13 05:27:30 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 06:27:30 -0400 Subject: Wanting some help with a PDP-8/a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: Bryan Longram > Subject: Wanting some help with a PDP-8/a > > I acquired a non-functional PDP-8/A several months ago and in that time > I've replaced all the outwardly damaged parts and have gotten the machine > to power on with no issues. However the problem I've been having now that I > can't quite seem to pin down is that every time I power the machine the > address field is displayed as 07777 and the value field is displayed as > 7777. Attempting to change addresses or the value of the address doesn't > work as I can enter the value just fine but upon entering the Load Address > button it defaults back to being all sevens. I am in the process of repairing three 8/a Programmer's Panels. Two panels had bad ribbon cables. A good panel exhibited the same behavior as yours when used with the bad cables. I was able to cut the keying peg off two IDE disk cables to try as replacement cables. They IDE cables don't fit well, but do work. I will make new replacement cables for all three panels. -- Michael Thompson From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 13 08:27:47 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:27:47 -0400 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 2:32 AM steven--- via cctech wrote: > > > Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the > 50-pin > > port is the output port. > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/GUARANTEED-GOOD-USED-FANUC-TAPE-READER-A860-0056-T020/392104833775?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 > > > Perhaps try the IndustryArena CNC forum at https://www.cnczone.com/ they > have some FANUC postings there at the moment. > > Steve. > > > Once I learned that there is a "BTR" that the machine tool industry used to migrate from papertape to computer storage I was able to track down what route and part options I had for interfacing with the FANUC interface board. Mine is A20B-0004-0270. This is a pretty common reader they're all over Ebay, etc. I read through posts on the subject, the most useful post was this one: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/drip-feed-fanuc-6mb-226479/ I also took a careful look at the control board. Determined the name of the connector, searched the web for references to that 50 pin connector and found that there are vendors who sell interfaces to it. Botta bing. Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 13 12:08:15 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:08:15 -0500 Subject: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd. In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D4200@mail.bensene.com> <4a7fc315-89b3-f9b3-c1d6-638f388d89c9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5EBC297F.2040706@pico-systems.com> On 05/12/2020 10:36 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > Following up on the results of my searching around. The FANUC A860 reader > with A20B controller (the normal set up) has a 50 pin output port. There > is a device one can buy that receives the signal from the FANUC's 50-pin > port and converts to into 25-pin RS232. The device is called a behind the > tape reader or BTR. There are models of BTR made for FANUC. I found the > Memex MX1000 and MX1100, Sanyo RLC174 and DOSTEK 440A. I am sure there are > more. > > 20+ years ago, I resurrected an Allen-Bradley 7320 CNC controller. I didn't want to deal with paper tapes, and had to modify the program a bit, anyway, and had no punch. So, I built my own BTR. The interface on this one was a 12 V logic standard, but quite simple. 8 data bits and a strobe came out, and there was an input to advance to the next character. (These old CNC controls had bi-directional readers, and the control could move forward and backwards on the tape. But, I didn't need the reverse feature.) It was a pretty simple thing to set up and connect through the computer's parallel port. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 13 13:49:42 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:49:42 -0700 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: i've uploaded what the high density heads look like to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/diablo/photos/heads From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 13 13:56:02 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 14:56:02 -0400 Subject: Great, my VT52 is shot.--Progress! In-Reply-To: References: <33474eda-99bb-41ff-5216-62ba07ea95e5@alembic.crystel.com> <5E9C6CB7.9060603@pico-systems.com> <7f8c580c-0fbd-f6fb-0533-5284d476e97f@alembic.crystel.com> <20DB77DD-C979-4D04-9FAF-9EFE562616BE@shaw.ca> <58A706EF-1884-483B-862E-B3A17FD50258@shaw.ca> <07233686-d6ca-c559 -3102-f931078edd84@alembic.crystel.com> <45AF14CB-22B4-4313-9BF9-0F7BBCCB461A@shaw.ca> <5EA06824.1080606@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8b596f98-3635-28e6-9144-7a020420f002@alembic.crystel.com> So with the op-amp replaced and the unit still whining and putting out -15+ volts on the -12 rail I decided to just punt and pull the Q12 transistor. Removed it, will test but doesn't look happy and replaced it with a 7912 -12 volt regulator mounted to the big heat sink with the three wires going to both sides of capacitor C17 for ground and input voltages and the -12 volt output going off to the top side of capacitor C54. Kind of a hack, but I just want to see if this thing works. Tested the power supply outputs with a bench voltage tester at -20 volts and sure enough E2 is reading -11.98 and E3 is reading a solid -5 volts. Put the power supply board in the unit, hooked it up, fired up the VT52. Silence. Dead silent. No whine, no high pitched sounds, no nothing. Quiet. Then I saw the little blinking cursor underline on the screen and found that the keys make the clicking and I realized not only is it working, but it's better than before. Turned it off, will wait a few hours for the HV to dissipate, then will screw everything down. I'm thinking this -12 volt supply has been a problem for some time as it used to make a high pitched TV whine but now it's nice and quiet. Possible the root cause is something in the Q12 power transistor, but to be honest more modern technology in the power supply can only be a good thing :-) Should have it all back together tonight, I'll see if it talks to the computer. If so we have a working VT52 and now people know that if the screen looks like mine did the problem is most likely in the -12v circuit. C On 5/6/2020 9:53 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, I pulled the E2 op-amp and replaced it with a NOS one of the same > model. Put the supply together and now I am getting -17 volts on pins E2 > to ground (E10). > > I'm thinking of just replacing the power transistor Q12 with a 7912 -12v > regulator that I have here and bypassing the whole op amp/transistor > mess. That should give me a solid -12v on the E2 line and provide power > for the -5 volt divider circuit. > > Thoughts? > C > > On 4/22/2020 11:52 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/21/2020 10:09 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> On 2020-Apr-21, at 5:27 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>> Meantime reading the manual I found an interesting test: If you >>>> short emitter to base on Q4 (easiest way is to jumper diode D10) the >>>> voltage on the -12v supply goes to .4 volts. They're saying it's E2, >>>> R15,R17,R14. >>>> >>>> Is there a way I can test the op-amp in circuit? Maybe it's dead. >>> >>> >> Well, if the circuit **IS** regulating, then the voltage on the two >> inputs will be identical. >> But, since it might not be regulating, then these voltages would not >> be equal. >> But, if you can see that the + input is more positive than the - >> input, yet the output >> is pegged negative, for instance, then you know either the op-amp is >> bad, or another circuit is overloading >> the output and forcing it that way. >> >> Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 13 14:26:36 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monrobot : A trip down memory lane in the world of computers Message-ID: A friend recently reminesced about the Monrobot, which we have discussed a little bit lately, . . . [Note: Unrelated to the Marilyn Monroebot on Futurama] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 16:38:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: A trip down memory lane in the world of computers (I probably have shared this with you in the past) from an email to another friend... My high school... Erasmus Hall High School in Brooklyn...?? ? listed as THE LARGEST PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THE WESTERN WORLD (I guess they were trying to exclude China and India at the time) was the first in NY City to get its own computer... in 1965.?? ??IT was a Monrobot XI 2000. Regarding that Monrobot XI?? 2000...?? ?? ??made by the Monroe desktop calculator company of that era... Its main memory was a rotating magnetic drum, with 2K?? 16 bit words of fast electronic storage.?? Cycle op time was 11 milliseconds.?? It used 16 bit words, and one wrote its machine language using what was NOT called "Hexadecimal", but instead "Sexadecimal" (Latin, not Greek prefix was used)?? numbers, and NOT 1-9 then A-F, but rather 1-9 and then T-X.?? Storage was on punched paper tape. I learned to program it so that I could optimize access to the rotating drum memory and get three accesses (the max possible) per revolution of the drum, as much as tripling memory access speed. 11 milliseconds means?? 100 cycles per second.?? ??Modern desktop PCs operate at around 3,000,000,000 cycles per second.Compared to the 2,000 words of main system memory of the Monrobot XI, today's desktop PCs have around 8 to 32 billion words of memory. I programmed it?? (at age 14, in 1965) in machine language (the computer teacher didn't know how to do that)?? ... wrote a program for it to allow me to input and it to output to its printer a sequence of 3 strip tease images I got from a printout at Columbia University where I was then going to the Science Honors Program for high school kids, there. on weekends. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I may be wrong about Erasmus Hall High School of Brooklyn being THE first high school in NY City to get its own computer. There is a reference elsewhere to Bronx High School of Science kids being taught IBM 650 language in 1959 or so. I suppose, if so, I could start splitting hairs and say that, while the Monrobot XI and the IBM 650 were similar in many ways, the Monrobot XI was a much more modern generation in that it used solid state, where the IBM 650 used vacuum tubes. I vaguely recall there may have been a Monrobot XI and a Monrobot XI 2000, the latter having twice the system memory (rotating magnetic drum) as the earlier model. Those were the days. I recall boot-strapping in programs in machine language from the front panel! I loved that machine. I remember the delicious smell of the high quality oiled paper tape! [Some paper tape was oil impregnated, some was not). The thing came with a Fortran compiler. You loaded your source tape on one tape reader, then loaded in part 1 of the compiler, and an intermediate tape was output. Then you loaded that intermediate tape and part 2 of the compiler on the tape reader, and a compiled program paper tape was output. THEN you input the compiled program, and (if you were very very lucky), it ran. Everyone else including the teacher used Fortran ONLY. I did most of my programming on it in machine (not assembly... I hand assembled my programs) ... machine language. 15 years later I programmed a prototype "Bio-medical micro computer" that incorporated the JUST MONTHS EARLIER released Intel 8080 processor to examine electrocardiograms in real time (interrupt driven) and identify abnormal beats. I programmed it in machine language, too. Storing programs in 1702 EPROMs. Input was via 3 buttons cycling 7 segment LEDs, and a LOAD and RUN button. And an analog input for the EKG signal. Output was to EPROM programmer and to EKG strip chart. Damn thing actually worked, pretty much. As well as most other efforts back in 1975, anwyay. ---marty From macro at linux-mips.org Wed May 13 17:08:09 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:08:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing Power LED on MicroVAX 3100/95 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <016301d628ee$f6931490$e3b93db0$@ntlworld.com> References: <01RKPLGW7GZO8X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <016301d628ee$f6931490$e3b93db0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 May 2020, Rob Jarratt wrote: > That's fantastic Maciej! I often buy from Farnell, so there is no issue with > getting those parts myself. When I have accumulated enough wants to warrant > an order I will get them. You are welcome, I'm glad to be of help! Maciej From cube1 at charter.net Wed May 13 20:28:37 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 20:28:37 -0500 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/12/2020 9:26 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/12/20 6:10 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't remember now if these parts I have were from drives originally >> on a DEC or DG system. > > The easy way to tell is the low density heads have metal instead of > ceramic disks. > > If anyone has the older metal style, Carl Claunch is trying to find some. > > It turns out mine a metal, and perhaps came off of a DG system (my RK03's on a PDP-11 have ceramic heads.) Carl, feel free to contact me off list. JRJ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 13 20:59:41 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 21:59:41 -0400 Subject: VT52 is back in service! Message-ID: Well, I put the VT52 back together, tightened all the bolts, plugged it in, turned it on and enjoyed the silence. I can just barely hear the transformer hum but that's about it. Hooked it up to my PDT11/150, booted up RT11 and the display is perfectly crisp and clear. Ran space invaders to check it out, no bugs or errors and the screen updates perfectly. Glad I got this working again. I'll take a look at that transistor, I'm almost 100% positive the switching transistor is either leaking or going bad. Either way I'll order a transistor when I have some time and put it in eventually to see if it works. But to be honest the new regulator is a thousand times better than the original discrete logic system. So moral: If your VT52 goes nutty and the screen becomes a blur try checking all of the voltages. An errant -12v will make the screen unreadable at -15v and I'm guessing oddness on the other voltage levels will do similar things as well. And don't leave it on for days, that's probably what pushed the transistor over the edge, but I'm guessing it has been crummy for awhile which is why I heard all that noise in the high voltage circuit. I feel like I accomplished something today. Thanks everyone for the help and thoughts in getting this old girl to work again... CZ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 13 22:16:05 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:16:05 -0400 Subject: VT52 is back in service! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0eda24a3-06f9-40de-5afa-6eb020ef739f@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-05-13 9:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, I put the VT52 back together, ... > I feel like I accomplished something today. Thanks everyone for the help > and thoughts in getting this old girl to work again... > > CZ Congratulations on a really worthwhile achievement, and thanks for detailing he repair to the list. --Toby From mcr at martin-reilly.com Thu May 14 07:22:36 2020 From: mcr at martin-reilly.com (Martin Reilly) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 13:22:36 +0100 Subject: DEC TK50 common failures? Message-ID: <000001d629ea$5b596680$120c3380$@martin-reilly.com> I'm trying to bring a pdp-11/83 back to working order. Challenge right now is storage - I have RQDX3 and RD54 but the RD54 appears to be unserviceable (never goes ready) and TQK50 with a TK50 which never gets to a stage of allowing me to operate the handle to load a cartridge - the green LED doesn't come on, the red LED is solid for a short time after power applied but then flashes rapidly. I plan to go with an MFM emulator in place of the disk, but would like to get a TK50 working as I have a lot of old stuff I'd like to try reading off cartridges. I have a spare TK50 drive, which behaves exactly the same. The TQK50 LEDs suggest it passes diagnostics, and the boot menu recognises it and will attempt to boot from it before saying there is no such drive. I don't have a spare controller. There is a lot of very detailed documentation for the TQK50/TK50 as far as the electronics and interfacing is concerned but I haven't found much in the way of information about the mechanical side. Are there common failure modes for these drives when they've been stored for a long time? Last time they were powered up is probably close to 20 years ago. Without much in the way of test kit (I have multimeter but no scope) is there anything I might be able to check easily? Thanks, Martin From emu at e-bbes.com Thu May 14 08:28:29 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 09:28:29 -0400 Subject: DEC TK50 common failures? In-Reply-To: <000001d629ea$5b596680$120c3380$@martin-reilly.com> References: <000001d629ea$5b596680$120c3380$@martin-reilly.com> Message-ID: On 2020-05-14 08:22, Martin Reilly via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to bring a pdp-11/83 back to working order. Challenge right now > is storage - I have RQDX3 and RD54 but the RD54 appears to be unserviceable > (never goes ready) As you like to go for the MFM emulator anyway, lets just talk about the TK50 ... > and TQK50 with a TK50 which never gets to a stage of > allowing me to operate the handle to load a cartridge - the green LED > doesn't come on, the red LED is solid for a short time after power applied > but then flashes rapidly. I plan to go with an MFM emulator in place of the > disk, but would like to get a TK50 working as I have a lot of old stuff I'd > like to try reading off cartridges. You hear it doing anything? The solenoid, which locks the cartridge got stuck? > I have a spare TK50 drive, which behaves exactly the same. The TQK50 LEDs > suggest it passes diagnostics, and the boot menu recognises it and will > attempt to boot from it before saying there is no such drive. I don't have a > spare controller. If you look for one, go an get the tqk70 ... > > > There is a lot of very detailed documentation for the TQK50/TK50 as far as > the electronics and interfacing is concerned but I haven't found much in the > way of information about the mechanical side. Are there common failure modes > for these drives when they've been stored for a long time? Last time they > were powered up is probably close to 20 years ago. Without much in the way > of test kit (I have multimeter but no scope) is there anything I might be > able to check easily? Very short one: https://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/tk50.html As this says, they suck up dust better than most vacuum cleaners, so cleaning is a must ... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 14 09:43:46 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 14:43:46 +0000 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: I wonder if a high density head could be used on a low density machine. I'd think the main difference would be track width. If the signal levels were similar it might work. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jay Jaeger via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:28 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: ISO: Diablo 30 heads On 5/12/2020 9:26 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/12/20 6:10 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't remember now if these parts I have were from drives originally >> on a DEC or DG system. > > The easy way to tell is the low density heads have metal instead of > ceramic disks. > > If anyone has the older metal style, Carl Claunch is trying to find some. > > It turns out mine a metal, and perhaps came off of a DG system (my RK03's on a PDP-11 have ceramic heads.) Carl, feel free to contact me off list. JRJ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 14 09:57:19 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 07:57:19 -0700 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/14/20 7:43 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if a high density head could be used on a low density machine. I'd think the main difference would be track width. It wouldn't work well at all for interchange with a real IBM 1130 disk drive, which would be what Carl would need them for From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 14 10:46:19 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 10:46:19 -0500 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <5EBD67CB.7040607@pico-systems.com> On 05/14/2020 09:43 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if a high density head could be used on a low density machine. I'd think the main difference would be track width. If the signal levels were similar it might work. > A high density head should be able to READ a pre-written low-density pack, assuming the bit rate is the same, just the track density is the difference. And, you could probably format and write a pack on a low density drive with high-density heads. But, you definitely would have trouble trying to write to a low-density pre-written pack with high-density heads, as the erase head would not completely erase the older, wider, track data. Unless the head positioning was incredibly reproducible, the old data would contaminate the newly-written data. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 14 11:54:34 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 09:54:34 -0700 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/13/20 6:28 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Carl, feel free to contact me off list. Has anyone heard anything from Carl? I'm a bit concerned since there have been no updates on his 1130 page for a while. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 14 14:45:42 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 19:45:42 +0000 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> , Message-ID: I just emailed him an hour ago and he replied. I suspect he is fine. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 9:54 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: ISO: Diablo 30 heads On 5/13/20 6:28 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Carl, feel free to contact me off list. Has anyone heard anything from Carl? I'm a bit concerned since there have been no updates on his 1130 page for a while. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 14 17:31:35 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 15:31:35 -0700 Subject: ISO: Diablo 30 heads In-Reply-To: References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org> , Message-ID: <77ada77dbe5c458e417c70c558e67b6ab56170e6.camel@shiresoft.com> I chatted with him on FB earlier in the day and he's doing fine. TTFN - Guy On Thu, 2020-05-14 at 19:45 +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I just emailed him an hour ago and he replied. I suspect he is fine. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 9:54 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: ISO: Diablo 30 heads > > On 5/13/20 6:28 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > > Carl, feel free to contact me off list. > > Has anyone heard anything from Carl? > I'm a bit concerned since there have been no updates on his 1130 page > for a while. > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri May 15 18:58:49 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 19:58:49 -0400 Subject: Fixing Dungeon on RSX 4.2 Message-ID: <58e4e14c-b3ae-9176-6dec-3ca0d262236c@alembic.crystel.com> So I'm working on fixing some old code here. Found my balticon gaming system disks from 1990 (yes, I used to drag a pdp11 and 4 terminals to Balticon and other cons for computer gaming) and dungeon works on the 4.0 RSX version I was using but when I try to run it on 4.2 I get an Error 4 at PC 162570. I tried recompiling: RSXCMP works fine and compiles all the modules however when I run TKB with the rsxbld I get a bunch of *DIAG* Segment (root3, rooms, etc) has address overflow: allocation deleted. What am I doing wrong today? The task builder file is: dungeon/cp/fp=d.odl/mp stack=384 libr=fcsres:ro asg=sy:1:2:3:4,TI:5,CO:6 Reading the docs I see: The Fortran-IV-Plus object time library must be merged into the system library (SYSLIB.OLB). Further, the library must be set up to invoke the short error text module ($SHORT) as the default. Task building with a separate object time library produces numerous errors; task building with a resident library or the normal error text module produces an oversize task image. This might be the problem, anyone remember how to put the short error text module into syslib.olb? Hm. Maybe it is. Hm.... C From joezatarski at gmail.com Sat May 16 12:02:24 2020 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 12:02:24 -0500 Subject: VAXStation 3200 RAM repair video (again) Message-ID: I had to repair the RAM board in my VS3200/KA650 again, so I took video of the whole process (less about a whole day I lost troubleshooting a trace I nicked). Maybe some of you will find it interesting to watch. https://youtu.be/3LxTJIzow2k (tip: get through youtube videos faster by setting to double speed, etc. :) From imp at bsdimp.com Sat May 16 13:18:43 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 12:18:43 -0600 Subject: VAXStation 3200 RAM repair video (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 16, 2020, 11:02 AM Joseph Zatarski via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I had to repair the RAM board in my VS3200/KA650 again, so I took video > of the whole process (less about a whole day I lost troubleshooting a > trace I nicked). > > Maybe some of you will find it interesting to watch. > > https://youtu.be/3LxTJIzow2k (tip: get through youtube videos faster by > setting to double speed, etc. :) > Much easier than watching 2 at once. Warner > From joezatarski at gmail.com Sat May 16 14:03:26 2020 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 14:03:26 -0500 Subject: VAXStation 3200 RAM repair video (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1fc10828-dc0b-f7bc-7d58-27171640994d@gmail.com> On 5/16/20 1:18 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, May 16, 2020, 11:02 AM Joseph Zatarski via cctalk > > wrote: > > I had to repair the RAM board in my VS3200/KA650 again, so I took video > of the whole process (less about a whole day I lost troubleshooting a > trace I nicked). > > Maybe some of you will find it interesting to watch. > > https://youtu.be/3LxTJIzow2k? (tip: get through youtube videos > faster by > setting to double speed, etc. :) > > > Much easier than watching 2 at once. > > Warner > I thought that was why we had two eyes. From sophaskins at sophaskins.net Sat May 16 14:25:59 2020 From: sophaskins at sophaskins.net (Sophie Haskins) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 19:25:59 +0000 Subject: VAXStation 3200 RAM repair video (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for posting this Joseph - that was a great video! A great example of fault-finding > On May 16, 2020, at 1:02 PM, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 17 07:22:16 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 13:22:16 +0100 Subject: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate Message-ID: <000a01d62c45$cdc00f50$69402df0$@ntlworld.com> I am about as certain as I can be that the flyback transformer from my VAXmate monitor board has failed. I know this is probably impossible, but I am wondering if there is a way to find a more modern equivalent? How standardised are these things? I do see a lot that appear to have the same circular arrangement of the pins. The VAXmate one is a Tai-Ho TH-1802B and according the Technical Description has a primary voltage of +28V and produces auxiliary voltages as follows: +13.1kV @85uA max +950V @200uA +45V @75mA max -100V @1.2mA Regards Rob From holm at freibergnet.de Sun May 17 12:52:04 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 19:52:04 +0200 Subject: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate In-Reply-To: <000a01d62c45$cdc00f50$69402df0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000a01d62c45$cdc00f50$69402df0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200517175204.GD57128@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am about as certain as I can be that the flyback transformer from my > VAXmate monitor board has failed. I know this is probably impossible, but I > am wondering if there is a way to find a more modern equivalent? How > standardised are these things? I do see a lot that appear to have the same > circular arrangement of the pins. > > > > The VAXmate one is a Tai-Ho TH-1802B and according the Technical Description > has a primary voltage of +28V and produces auxiliary voltages as follows: > > > > +13.1kV @85uA max > > +950V @200uA > > +45V @75mA max > > -100V @1.2mA > > > > Regards > > > > Rob Rob the Footprints are somewhat standardized, unfortunately the entire FBTs are not. There are compatible Versions from different manufacturers, but most manufacturers are gone in the meantime, nobody want's to look at a CRT anymore... As most of us, I'm in "historical computers"..and there are several 8-Bit machines that wants to be connected to an CRT Monitor with some TV related Video input. I have rescued some small 12" industrial-TV monitors from the dumpster years before und when I needed one lately I had to fiddle with a defective FBT first. There are 10pin and 8 pin versions and there are deflection coils with different impedances, mostly the monitors are to be operated with 12VDC, but I think in your case I've read something like 28VDC as the operating voltage of the horizontal output Stage. My Monitor is working again, I've fitted an 10 pin variant FBT into the 8 holes on the board..with some wire bridges. I've searched on the hrdiemen.com Webpage, often there es at least an raw schematic how the coils in ther 2nd source transformers are connected..and I've crawled trough several monitor schematics to make the refit work. My Monitor was an chinese model, clearly there is no schematic available at all...but it can be done. After the repair I've got 3 small FBTs and 2 deflection coils fromy ebay for $10, must I say that 2 compatible FBT where in the ebay goods? I think not...its murphy... HR Diemens Website has had better times before..don't know how long they will last. As far as I know there is no direct replacement for your Vaxmate, I've looked there for that. You are on your own..sadly as it is. FBTs from former GDR "Robotron" monitors are all failing now if they aren't already bad for years. There is an issue with the used potting material of the HV coil, it shrinks and gets cracks..humidty is diffusing in and that builds vinegar in conjunction with the for isolation used polyacetate foil. There are many people that therefore rewound the hv coil on her own, it can work..but it is a job for somebody that eats small childrens. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 17 13:41:00 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 20:41:00 +0200 Subject: Looking for IBM OS/VS2 TCAM Programmer's manual. Message-ID: Preferably OS/VS2 TCAM System Programmer's Guide TCAM Level 10. GC30-2051 but I think it is similar to OS/VS2 TCAM Programmer's Guide, GC30-2041. I get a hit for the former one: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/9844/OS-VS-TCAM-Progarmmer-s-Guide-TCAM-Level-10/ But it is not online. Any one has a scanned copy of this document? Anyone that has a copy that they could scan, sell or lend so that I can scan it? /Mattis From djg at pdp8online.com Sun May 17 08:03:22 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 09:03:22 -0400 Subject: OSI floppy test program Message-ID: <20200517130322.GA32270@hugin3> I and others were having some problems with our floppy drives. Since I couldn't find a diagnostic program for the Ohio Scientific I wrote one. http://www.pdp8online.com/osi/osi-floppy-test.shtml With some floppy testing info here http://www.pdp8online.com/osi/floppy-repair.shtml If you try it let me know how it goes. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 17 16:01:27 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 22:01:27 +0100 Subject: Looking for IBM OS/VS2 TCAM Programmer's manual. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d7f01d62c8e$5546cd90$ffd468b0$@gmail.com> Mattis. If you can't get a copy, the guys at Cambridge will usually scan it for you for a donation. Not sure if that?s possible at present. They don't receive any government funding and do need the cash Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via > cctalk > Sent: 17 May 2020 19:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Looking for IBM OS/VS2 TCAM Programmer's manual. > > Preferably OS/VS2 TCAM System Programmer's Guide TCAM Level 10. GC30- > 2051 but I think it is similar to OS/VS2 TCAM Programmer's Guide, GC30-2041. > > I get a hit for the former one: > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/9844/OS-VS-TCAM-Progarmmer- > s-Guide-TCAM-Level-10/ > > But it is not online. > > Any one has a scanned copy of this document? Anyone that has a copy that > they could scan, sell or lend so that I can scan it? > > /Mattis From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 17 16:13:23 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 17:13:23 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation Message-ID: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Gentlepeople, I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly more polished. Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. paul From emu at e-bbes.com Sun May 17 16:31:21 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 17:31:21 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0d3f26f3-df75-8f7f-ff46-e70e49a6a0c5@e-bbes.com> On 2020-05-17 17:13, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly more polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. Sure, I would be interested ... Actually, would even like the other way around too, connecting a working lk201 to a pc ... ( so the terminal emulation works nicer) Cheers From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 17 16:43:56 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 17:43:56 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 5:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an LK201 > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. Yes I have a number of Rainbows, DECmates, VT220s, VT240s, etc. I also have some LK201s but fewer every year as they die. > I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. Completely understandable. Building them at home with a Trinket as a base doesn't sound difficult, PCB or point-to-point. I look forward to seeing the design. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 17 17:00:45 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 23:00:45 +0100 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <006a01d62c96$9dd46fb0$d97d4f10$@ntlworld.com> Well there is never any harm in publishing this kind of work! > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Koning via > cctalk > Sent: 17 May 2020 22:13 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: LK201 emulation > > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an > adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an > LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, an amazingly > tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to make > it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly more > polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, > I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. I don't > think I want to get into building units for others, though. > > paul From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun May 17 17:12:08 2020 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 18:12:08 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Paul, I'm interested and would be happy to get a batch of boards done (at least 20 to get the per board price down). They'd be bare boards though so people would have to source their own parts and build them themselves. Thanks, Todd On 5/17/2020 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly more polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. > > paul > From macro at linux-mips.org Sun May 17 17:12:38 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 23:12:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <0d3f26f3-df75-8f7f-ff46-e70e49a6a0c5@e-bbes.com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <0d3f26f3-df75-8f7f-ff46-e70e49a6a0c5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 May 2020, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Actually, would even like the other way around too, connecting a working > lk201 to a pc ... ( so the terminal emulation works nicer) Well, you just need a serial port adapter + power. See also: . Linux even has a driver that is ready to use, see e.g.: . Or do you want to drive the PC (e.g. interact with the boot firmware) too with that keyboard? Maciej From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 17 17:15:03 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 16:15:03 -0600 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 3:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created > an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look > like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket > M0, an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to > make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly > more polished. > Very cool! > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to > others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout > and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for > others, though. > I can't speak for others, but I need, I want, I gotta have. Warner From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun May 17 17:33:20 2020 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 18:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <0d3f26f3-df75-8f7f-ff46-e70e49a6a0c5@e-bbes.com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <0d3f26f3-df75-8f7f-ff46-e70e49a6a0c5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2020-05-17 17:13, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created > an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look > like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, > an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to > make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly > more polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? > If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts > list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. I would be interested. I have one dead LK201, one flaky LK201 and a dead LK401. PCB and parts list okay, I can build it myself. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From amp1ron at gmail.com Sun May 17 17:11:46 2020 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 18:11:46 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul -- I'm very interested in this. I'd love a USB keyboard adapter that acts like an LK201. If anyone wants a PS/2 keyboard adapter that emulates an LK201, there's Peter Bosch's Arduino Nano based lk201emu: https://github.com/peterbjornx/lk201emu His writeup on this is still in the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20180703165508/https://peterbjornx.nl/vtkbd/ I can no longer find a copy of Peter's schematic for this online, but at some point I grabbed a copy of it, which I'm attaching here as schem.pdf . -- Ron From lars at nocrew.org Mon May 18 02:36:40 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 07:36:40 +0000 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> (Paul Koning via cctalk's message of "Sun, 17 May 2020 17:13:23 -0400") References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7wo8qln187.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Paul Koning wrote: > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to > others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB > layout and parts list. Yes, I'm interested. I also have a broken LK201, and I have a Trinket lying around. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 18 08:09:44 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:09:44 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01RL0RIM45JC8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: > > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created > an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look > like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, > an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to > make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly > more polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? > If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts > list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. > I also find myself with several flakey LK201s. To be honest, I wouldn't be interested in replacing them with PC keyboards. I'd prefer to get my LK201s back in action. If the issues are in the keyswitches or the flexi-print stuff connecting them to the electronics, it looks like it will be nearly impossible to do anything with them. However, if it turns out that the issues are in the electronics part of the keyboard and they are not easily repairable for one reason or another, I may be interested in a drop in replacement for the original electronics. I've opened up one of mine just now and extracted the PCB. There are eight 10 microfarad axial electrolytic capacitors on it. Each of them has some green salty corrosion deposits on one or both of their leads while the leads on the other components are bright and shiney. If I had spares available, I would try replacing these components and see if it makes a difference. I unsoldered them anyway in case they cause damage to the PCB. Most of them measured ok on the capacitance range on my multimeter but one of them reads only 3.5 microfarads. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > paul > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 18 09:32:23 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 10:32:23 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <01RL0RIM45JC8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RL0RIM45JC8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <35B01482-9A25-40E0-8AE1-C2147844F340@comcast.net> > On May 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I also find myself with several flakey LK201s. > > To be honest, I wouldn't be interested in replacing them with PC keyboards. > I'd prefer to get my LK201s back in action. > > If the issues are in the keyswitches or the flexi-print stuff connecting them > to the electronics, it looks like it will be nearly impossible to do anything > with them. Yes, and that is the case with mine. I know from years past that those switches are vulnerable to contamination. > However, if it turns out that the issues are in the electronics part of the > keyboard and they are not easily repairable for one reason or another, I may > be interested in a drop in replacement for the original electronics. Since that wasn't my scenario I haven't tried to do that. It seems easy enough. The main issue is that you need a controller with enough I/O lines to run the scan. A BeagleBone would be ample; an Arduino might not be. paul From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 18 13:15:26 2020 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:15:26 -0400 Subject: Evans & Sutherland PS-2? Message-ID: Does anyone have, or know of low level documentation for Evans & Sutherland Picture System 2 hardware? I walk past a PS-2 monitor all the time and some of us started talking about bringing it back to life.? I'm not sure if more of the system exists, but it might.? I plan to check. I looked on bitsavers and there's nothing I could find on the picture system.? Other E&S hardware, but not PS. Anyone know if any systems still exist?? I'd have to think the CHM has at least one.?? Back in the day they were sort of required for anyone doing commercial animation (or at least, that's what I could claim/recall but it was a long time ago) Brad From lars at nocrew.org Mon May 18 13:55:29 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 18:55:29 +0000 Subject: Evans & Sutherland PS-2? In-Reply-To: (Brad Parker via cctalk's message of "Mon, 18 May 2020 14:15:26 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7wzha5kr8e.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Brad Parker wrote: > Does anyone have, or know of low level documentation for Evans & > Sutherland Picture System 2 hardware? Sorry, I can't help. Is there any software for it? I do consider making an emulator for the E&S LDS-1. From markwgreen at rogers.com Mon May 18 13:57:39 2020 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (markwgreen at rogers.com) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:57:39 -0400 Subject: Evans & Sutherland PS-2? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01a501d62d46$34598150$9d0c83f0$@rogers.com> I have one, but no documentation I'm afraid. The last time I turned it on was 20 years ago. The last thing I remember is the fuse in the display blowing. I ordered replacements, but never got it going again. They take a lot of power, where mine is currently sitting I don't have the power to bring it up. In the next year or so I plan to build a special room with lots of power for my old graphics devices. I'll get back on it then, hopefully I'll be at least semi-retired by then. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brad Parker via cctalk Sent: May 18, 2020 2:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Evans & Sutherland PS-2? Does anyone have, or know of low level documentation for Evans & Sutherland Picture System 2 hardware? I walk past a PS-2 monitor all the time and some of us started talking about bringing it back to life. I'm not sure if more of the system exists, but it might. I plan to check. I looked on bitsavers and there's nothing I could find on the picture system. Other E&S hardware, but not PS. Anyone know if any systems still exist? I'd have to think the CHM has at least one. Back in the day they were sort of required for anyone doing commercial animation (or at least, that's what I could claim/recall but it was a long time ago) Brad From imp at bsdimp.com Mon May 18 15:37:57 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:37:57 -0600 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <35B01482-9A25-40E0-8AE1-C2147844F340@comcast.net> References: <01RL0RIM45JC8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <35B01482-9A25-40E0-8AE1-C2147844F340@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:32 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > However, if it turns out that the issues are in the electronics part of > the > > keyboard and they are not easily repairable for one reason or another, I > may > > be interested in a drop in replacement for the original electronics. > > Since that wasn't my scenario I haven't tried to do that. It seems easy > enough. The main issue is that you need a controller with enough I/O lines > to run the scan. A BeagleBone would be ample; an Arduino might not be. > Yea. I have one LK201 that I fried the controller board on by connecting 12V to the wrong lead and popping a few components off the board... I've replaced the exploded ones and it still doesn't work :( Would be cool to be able to use it again... Warner From sophaskins at sophaskins.net Mon May 18 15:40:31 2020 From: sophaskins at sophaskins.net (Sophie Haskins) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 20:40:31 +0000 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> I would absolutely be interested in this - while I'd love to use original hardware where possible, it's not always easy to get peripherals at the same time as machines. A long term dream of mine is to build some sort of general-purpose box that can make connections to arbitrary vintage computer keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB peripherals to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and get going. > On May 17, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly more polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. > > paul > From sales at elecplus.com Mon May 18 16:20:37 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 16:20:37 -0500 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> Message-ID: <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> Do you guys want original LK201s, or other keyboards that LOOK like LK201s in the caps and layout, or converters? I am a little confused... LK201 clones do not have the clip offset on the terminal connector, so you would have to replace the connector. I have no idea if the protocol, voltage, etc is the same. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Haskins via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 3:41 PM To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LK201 emulation I would absolutely be interested in this - while I'd love to use original hardware where possible, it's not always easy to get peripherals at the same time as machines. A long term dream of mine is to build some sort of general-purpose box that can make connections to arbitrary vintage computer keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB peripherals to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and get going. > On May 17, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Gentlepeople, > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly more polished. > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, though. > > paul > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 18 16:27:57 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:27:57 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> Message-ID: > On May 18, 2020, at 5:20 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > Do you guys want original LK201s, or other keyboards that LOOK like LK201s > in the caps and layout, or converters? > I am a little confused... LK201 clones do not have the clip offset on the > terminal connector, so you would have to replace the connector. I have no > idea if the protocol, voltage, etc is the same. I think you're confused between terminals and keyboards. LK201 keyboards don't have offset clips (MMJ connectors). Instead, they use a standard telephone handset connector. What I was talking about is a way to use a PC USB keyboard in place of an LK201, when your last remaining real LK201 has just failed. That involves a USB jack, a LK201-compatible handset jack, some electronics, and software to speak the protocols involved. That's what I have just prototyped. paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 18 15:31:07 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 21:31:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <35B01482-9A25-40E0-8AE1-C2147844F340@comcast.net> References: <01RL0RIM45JC8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RL15XUD2608XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> I also find myself with several flakey LK201s. >> >> To be honest, I wouldn't be interested in replacing them with PC keyboards. >> I'd prefer to get my LK201s back in action. >> >> If the issues are in the keyswitches or the flexi-print stuff connecting them >> to the electronics, it looks like it will be nearly impossible to do anything >> with them. > > Yes, and that is the case with mine. I know from years past that those > switches are vulnerable to contamination. > I fear it may be the same with mine. Most of mine seem to behave as if keys are intermittently stuck down but no amount of tapping, shaking etc seems to help. > >> However, if it turns out that the issues are in the electronics part of the >> keyboard and they are not easily repairable for one reason or another, I may >> be interested in a drop in replacement for the original electronics. > > Since that wasn't my scenario I haven't tried to do that. It seems easy > enough. The main issue is that you need a controller with enough I/O lines > to run the scan. A BeagleBone would be ample; an Arduino might not be. > Fair enough. Sorry for the digression. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > paul > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 16:43:33 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:43:33 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 5:20 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Do you guys want original LK201s, or other keyboards that LOOK like LK201s > in the caps and layout, or converters? > I am a little confused... LK201 clones do not have the clip offset on the > terminal connector, so you would have to replace the connector. I have no > idea if the protocol, voltage, etc is the same. LK201 keyboards and variants (LK401, clones, etc) have a narrow 4p4c "handset jack" connector, not offset like an MMJ serial connector. The power is +12V, the serial protocols are the same. I've used LK401s on VT220s and Rainbows, I've used LK401s and LK201s on a Planar terminal with an "LK201" input jack. That part is standard. Speaking for myself, I have a pile of devices (DECmates, Professionals, Rainbows, VT220, VT240...) that have a 4-place narrow handset jack for a keyboard, and most of them are expecting an LK201. I also have a large assortment of LK201s (with and without the WPS/EDT "Gold Key" keycaps) and 1-2 smaller but compatible keyboards. Every time I pull an LK201 off the shelf, I'm wondering if it's going to work. I have 2-3 dead ones for sure. I think at least one of them has a dead matrix because IIRC, it was causing "4 - keyboard error" until I dismantled it and unplugged the mylar keyboard matrix sheet. I suspect that the paint layer has either oxidized to high resistance/open circuit or there's a short somewhere. I haven't investigated that further. I am also aware of some electronics failures. I can obviously mix and match bits to have as many working keyboards as possible, but that is a finite decreasing number. What I would find handy in one regard is being able to use a PS/2 or USB modern keyboard on 1980s DEC equipment as if I was plugging in an LK201. I would also probably employ a device that I could plug a real DEC keyboard into but that talked PS/2 or USB to be able to use that with a modern machine. One application would be to use it with Simh or even just a dumb terminal emulator (Glass, etc) with a real terminal feel. I might employ a device that replaced the electronics in a dead LK201 but I wouldn't need that many of them. -ethan > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sophie > Haskins via cctalk > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 3:41 PM > To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: LK201 emulation > > I would absolutely be interested in this - while I'd love to use original > hardware where possible, it's not always easy to get peripherals at the same > time as machines. A long term dream of mine is to build some sort of > general-purpose box that can make connections to arbitrary vintage computer > keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB peripherals > to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and get going. > > > On May 17, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Gentlepeople, > > > > I've been having problems with broken LK201s, so as a workaround I created > an adapter that connects to a standard PC USB keyboard and makes it look > like an LK201. It's based on an Arduino (specifically, Adafruit Trinket M0, > an amazingly tiny yet powerful small microprocessor). > > > > It's working at this point, though it needs a few small software tweaks to > make it complete. I'm going to turn my breadboard into something slightly > more polished. > > > > Question to the list: is this something that would be of interest to > others? If yes, I can make the design available. Perhaps the PCB layout > and parts list. I don't think I want to get into building units for others, > though. > > > > paul > > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 16:45:56 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:45:56 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 5:28 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > What I was talking about is a way to use a PC USB keyboard in place of an LK201, when your last remaining real LK201 has just failed. That involves a USB jack, a LK201-compatible handset jack, some electronics, and software to speak the protocols involved. That's what I have just prototyped. I would make a few of these. Could be handy at a VCF if your LK201 dies, or doesn't fit in your luggage. -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Mon May 18 16:48:22 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 15:48:22 -0600 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:46 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 5:28 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > What I was talking about is a way to use a PC USB keyboard in place of > an LK201, when your last remaining real LK201 has just failed. That > involves a USB jack, a LK201-compatible handset jack, some electronics, and > software to speak the protocols involved. That's what I have just > prototyped. > > I would make a few of these. Could be handy at a VCF if your LK201 > dies, or doesn't fit in your luggage. > I'd want a couple of these, especially if it let my Rainbow boot 'headless' otherwise. I've been experimenting with different LCD displays in an effort to replace the VR201 display with that. If I could then plug in any old keyboard I had laying around (USB or PS/2) that would be really nice... Warner From sales at elecplus.com Mon May 18 17:06:34 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:06:34 -0500 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <004501d62d5a$2d54ff60$87fefe20$@com> Message-ID: <004701d62d60$9867d420$c9377c60$@com> Readymade cables exist to allow Wyse and other terminal keyboards to work on USB. Would a reverse of this work? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh via cctalk Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 4:48 PM To: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LK201 emulation On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:46 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 5:28 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > What I was talking about is a way to use a PC USB keyboard in place of > an LK201, when your last remaining real LK201 has just failed. That > involves a USB jack, a LK201-compatible handset jack, some electronics, and > software to speak the protocols involved. That's what I have just > prototyped. > > I would make a few of these. Could be handy at a VCF if your LK201 > dies, or doesn't fit in your luggage. > I'd want a couple of these, especially if it let my Rainbow boot 'headless' otherwise. I've been experimenting with different LCD displays in an effort to replace the VR201 display with that. If I could then plug in any old keyboard I had laying around (USB or PS/2) that would be really nice... Warner -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From steven at malikoff.com Mon May 18 17:34:25 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 08:34:25 +1000 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> Message-ID: <1ae8ee5c009f70ad88d000569532ff76.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Sophie said > I would absolutely be interested in this - while I'd love to use original hardware where possible, it's not always easy to get peripherals at the same time as machines. A long term dream of mine is to build some sort of general-purpose box that can make connections to arbitrary vintage computer keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB peripherals to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and get going. There is a project that seems to be going along the same idea, http://www.kbdbabel.org/ Steve. From sales at elecplus.com Mon May 18 17:47:20 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (sales at elecplus.com) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:47:20 -0500 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <1ae8ee5c009f70ad88d000569532ff76.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <1ae8ee5c009f70ad88d000569532ff76.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <3e2d4c29107e221ed48b034501b634bb@elecplus.com> On 2020-05-18 17:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Sophie said >> I would absolutely be interested in this - while I'd love to use >> original hardware where possible, it's not always easy to get >> peripherals at the same time as machines. A long term dream of mine is >> to build some sort of general-purpose box that can make connections to >> arbitrary vintage computer > keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB > peripherals to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and > get going. > There is a project that seems to be going along the same idea, > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ > > Steve. Except that I can tell you from experience that not all 4p4c terminal keyboards are interchangeable. I you plug a Wyse into a Televideo, or vice versa, the keyboard will not work, and sometimes causes a small fire.... Cindy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 19:27:50 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 20:27:50 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <3e2d4c29107e221ed48b034501b634bb@elecplus.com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <1ae8ee5c009f70ad88d000569532ff76.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <3e2d4c29107e221ed48b034501b634bb@elecplus.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:47 PM sales--- via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-05-18 17:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > There is a project that seems to be going along the same idea, > > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ > > > > Steve. > > Except that I can tell you from experience that not all 4p4c terminal > keyboards are interchangeable. I you plug a Wyse into a Televideo, or > vice versa, the keyboard will not work, and sometimes causes a small > fire.... That is very true. DEC LK201/LK401, etc, and compatibles are all +12V devices with +12V and gnd on specific pins (not mirrored or mirror-safe). I have, as I mentioned, a Planar terminal, an ELT-320. It is a third-party device with an LK201 socket (and a PC-AT keyboard socket - either one can be used). Other vendors are free to do as they please because they expect to sell you a device with their keyboard. I'm sure some are +5V devices and many are +12V. Doesn't take much of a difference to cause problems, especially if your +12V line isn't current-limited. Making a universal keyboard interface definitely faces some physical challenges. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 18 19:33:46 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 20:33:46 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <1ae8ee5c009f70ad88d000569532ff76.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <1ae8ee5c009f70ad88d000569532ff76.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > There is a project that seems to be going along the same idea, http://www.kbdbabel.org/ Interesting starting point, but I tried to browse the code and it flashed up instructions for how to use cvs or rsync to pull the code down. Last substantial update seems to be from 2009. Lots of 8051 source. Not impossible to still find those, but a little on the chunky side for this decade. One could learn much from reading the code and inspecting the schematics, I'm sure. -ethan From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon May 18 19:47:45 2020 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 00:47:45 +0000 Subject: FTGH - Decstation 5000 plus many extras Message-ID: Lets have another go (but this time I have some pictures) Decstation 5000/125 ? also houses a CD drive. Two expansion storage boxes ? one has a tape drive and the other one has a floppy drive. Two very large and heavy RGB Digital monitors ? one has both Digital and Sony branding on the back of it. I haven?t dug the other one out as its in a corner and is dam heavy but it looks the same as the other one. Box of spares (RAM, CPU's, HDDs etc.) I?ve never powered it up ? it was a rescue ? I believe it was a server in a TAFE college in Adelaide. This is all I got from the rescue bar the box of spares. The original owner had tossed all the documentation and software. Please note that the stand is not included in my offer and its located in south western Victoria (Australia). Photos: http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/decstation/ Kevin Parker From amp1ron at gmail.com Mon May 18 20:18:56 2020 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 21:18:56 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <88438051-9A57-410B-B472-98E987EAA7F7@gmail.com> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <88438051-9A57-410B-B472-98E987EAA7F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7AD00CFD-93E2-4521-AE92-011D144C1E5A@gmail.com> If anyone wants a PS/2 keyboard adapter that emulates an LK201, there's Peter Bosch's Arduino Nano based lk201emu: https://github.com/peterbjornx/lk201emu His writeup on this is still in the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20180703165508/https://peterbjornx.nl/vtkbd/ I can no longer find a copy of Peter's schematic for this online, but at some point I grabbed a copy of it. I've renamed it from schem.pdf to lk201emu-schem.pdf and made it available at: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XmRClTCoIedfXDcUbcaJi-A9QXr7SCEo -- Ron From lars at nocrew.org Mon May 18 23:49:53 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 04:49:53 +0000 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> (Sophie Haskins via cctalk's message of "Mon, 18 May 2020 20:40:31 +0000") References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> Message-ID: <7weerglea6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Sophie Haskins wrote: > A long term dream of mine is to build some sort of general-purpose box > that can make connections to arbitrary vintage computer > keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB > peripherals to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and > get going. I'm kind of moving in this direction a tiny bit. I have a set of software emulators that I install on Raspberry Pis. My idea is that they should boot straight into the emulator and connect to a host computer over the network. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 18 16:54:51 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 22:54:51 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate In-Reply-To: <32285B23-622B-4E23-90F0-7CB428F04A74@icloud.com> References: <32285B23-622B-4E23-90F0-7CB428F04A74@icloud.com> Message-ID: <008901d62d5e$f511ab80$df350280$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Gregory Beat via > cctech > Sent: 18 May 2020 20:08 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate > > Tai-Ho (Taiwan) was the OEM supplier for flyback transformers used by Apple > in the early Macintosh computers (1984+). > > Russell Industries (New York, USA) produced replacement flyback transformers > for monitors and TVs, these appear on eBay and remaining TV repair supply > houses. > > As noted, while the circular pin-out is often standardized, the voltages need to > be double-checked. Thanks for this. I am having trouble finding any information on them, such as datasheets. Any ideas where to find this kind of information? Regards Rob > > greg > chicago > == > From: "Rob Jarratt" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate > > I am about as certain as I can be that the flyback transformer from my > VAXmate monitor board has failed. I know this is probably impossible, but I am > wondering if there is a way to find a more modern equivalent? How > standardised are these things? I do see a lot that appear to have the same > circular arrangement of the pins. > > The VAXmate one is a Tai-Ho TH-1802B and according the Technical > Description has a primary voltage of +28V and produces auxiliary voltages as > follows: > > +13.1kV @85uA max > +950V @200uA > +45V @75mA max > -100V @1.2mA > > Regards > Rob= From dk at thewaffleiron.net Mon May 18 20:21:11 2020 From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 21:21:11 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <1ae8ee5c009f70ad88d000569532ff76.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: If anyone is interested in taking over my PS/2 mouse to DEC mouse adapter (tested working on VAXStation, should also work on VT340+, etc) https://bitbucket.org/tinyscsi/decmouse/raw/fc73c57dce5926ac1ab9f0958ba82cf1e8cbe88e/DECMouse.ino You could implement both keyboard and mouse on one controller that has two serial ports (I use Teensy's) On Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:34 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk > wrote: > > There is a project that seems to be going along the same idea, > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ > > Interesting starting point, but I tried to browse the code and it > flashed up instructions for how to use cvs or rsync to pull the code > down. > > Last substantial update seems to be from 2009. Lots of 8051 source. > Not impossible to still find those, but a little on the chunky side > for this decade. > > One could learn much from reading the code and inspecting the > schematics, I'm sure. > > -ethan > From w9gb at icloud.com Mon May 18 14:08:26 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:08:26 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate Message-ID: <32285B23-622B-4E23-90F0-7CB428F04A74@icloud.com> Tai-Ho (Taiwan) was the OEM supplier for flyback transformers used by Apple in the early Macintosh computers (1984+). Russell Industries (New York, USA) produced replacement flyback transformers for monitors and TVs, these appear on eBay and remaining TV repair supply houses. As noted, while the circular pin-out is often standardized, the voltages need to be double-checked. greg chicago == From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate I am about as certain as I can be that the flyback transformer from my VAXmate monitor board has failed. I know this is probably impossible, but I am wondering if there is a way to find a more modern equivalent? How standardised are these things? I do see a lot that appear to have the same circular arrangement of the pins. The VAXmate one is a Tai-Ho TH-1802B and according the Technical Description has a primary voltage of +28V and produces auxiliary voltages as follows: +13.1kV @85uA max +950V @200uA +45V @75mA max -100V @1.2mA Regards Rob From w9gb at icloud.com Mon May 18 17:45:30 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:45:30 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate In-Reply-To: <008901d62d5e$f511ab80$df350280$@ntlworld.com> References: <008901d62d5e$f511ab80$df350280$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1F4FF2F8-8939-4FC4-96A7-189E7EC58C3E@icloud.com> Rob - It has been 35+ years since I worked for an Apple dealer, during the Macintosh announcement (and Apple sales, service training). I no longer have any of those documents. The Apple Community is extensive, and a quick Google search turned up many comments about Flyback, Damping Diode, & CRT replacements for early Macintosh. One individual acquired a replacement Flyback from Spain ($16 USD) for his Apple. Suggest you research those Apple owners for Mac specifications ? possible replacement. https://macgui.com/news/article.php?t=446 greg > On May 18, 2020, at 4:54 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Thanks for this. I am having trouble finding any information on them, such > as datasheets. Any ideas where to find this kind of information? > > Regards > Rob >> == >> From: "Rob Jarratt" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Subject: Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate >> >> I am about as certain as I can be that the flyback transformer from my >> VAXmate monitor board has failed. I know this is probably impossible, but I am >> wondering if there is a way to find a more modern equivalent? How >> standardised are these things? I do see a lot that appear to have the same >> circular arrangement of the pins. >> >> The VAXmate one is a Tai-Ho TH-1802B and according the Technical >> Description has a primary voltage of +28V and produces auxiliary voltages as >> follows: >> >> +13.1kV @85uA max >> +950V @200uA >> +45V @75mA max >> -100V @1.2mA >> >> Regards >> Rob From w9gb at icloud.com Mon May 18 18:00:25 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 18:00:25 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate In-Reply-To: <008901d62d5e$f511ab80$df350280$@ntlworld.com> References: <008901d62d5e$f511ab80$df350280$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Rob - A DEC Part Number would speed up your Part Search. Radwell, a surplus dealer in New Jersey, lists a DEC terminal Flyback Transformer. DEC Part number: 16-27975-01 (supposedly used in the DEC VT320 terminal) https://www.radwell.com/en-US/Buy/MONITOR%20TECHNOLOGIES/MONITOR%20TECHNOLOGIES/16-27975-01 A quick search on eBay produced this flyback candidate by Dalbani, a Miami, FL reseller. eBay auction # 123532693525 Replacement 16-27975-01 Flyback Transformer for DEC CRT TVs. Please verify the part number to ensure compatibility. These Items are not manufactured anymore. Order before we are out of stock permanently. All items are new old stock and guaranteed for functionality. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 19 01:52:06 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 07:52:06 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate In-Reply-To: References: <008901d62d5e$f511ab80$df350280$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <008f01d62daa$02c232e0$084698a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Gregory Beat via > cctech > Sent: 19 May 2020 00:00 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate > > Rob - > > A DEC Part Number would speed up your Part Search. > I have already searched for the DEC part number and drawn a blank. For reference it is 16-27188-01. For me the problem is getting any data about the flybacks you find. I have outline specs for what I need, but no info on the ones I find to help me determine if they may be compatible. The mac page you quoted doesn't really say how he determined that the replacement was compatible, but I will try searching the apple communities to see if I can find more information. Thanks Rob > Radwell, a surplus dealer in New Jersey, lists a DEC terminal Flyback > Transformer. > DEC Part number: 16-27975-01 (supposedly used in the DEC VT320 terminal) > https://www.radwell.com/en- > US/Buy/MONITOR%20TECHNOLOGIES/MONITOR%20TECHNOLOGIES/16- > 27975-01 > > A quick search on eBay produced this flyback candidate by Dalbani, a Miami, FL > reseller. > eBay auction # 123532693525 > Replacement 16-27975-01 Flyback Transformer for DEC CRT TVs. > > Please verify the part number to ensure compatibility. These Items are not > manufactured anymore. Order before we are out of stock permanently. All > items are new old stock and guaranteed for functionality. > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 19 08:13:08 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 09:13:08 -0400 Subject: LK201 emulation In-Reply-To: <7weerglea6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <6EE5BA9E-E792-4473-B2E7-3A7DBDCBEEE6@comcast.net> <192B60D9-AF4A-41F0-AD3D-BD7F1FE141B6@sophaskins.net> <7weerglea6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: > On May 19, 2020, at 12:49 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Sophie Haskins wrote: >> A long term dream of mine is to build some sort of general-purpose box >> that can make connections to arbitrary vintage computer >> keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB >> peripherals to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and >> get going. > > I'm kind of moving in this direction a tiny bit. I have a set of > software emulators that I install on Raspberry Pis. My idea is that > they should boot straight into the emulator and connect to a host > computer over the network. My first LK201 emulation was on a BeagleBone Black. That works fine with limitations. The Linux keyboard device driver imposes its own set of machinery between the actual keyboard and the program (even in "raw" mode), for example doing autorepeat. I'll make that code available too for anyone who wants it. paul From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 19 07:01:24 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 14:01:24 +0200 Subject: [cctalk] Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate In-Reply-To: <008f01d62daa$02c232e0$084698a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <008901d62d5e$f511ab80$df350280$@ntlworld.com> <008f01d62daa$02c232e0$084698a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200519120124.GA91227@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech On Behalf Of Gregory Beat via > > cctech > > Sent: 19 May 2020 00:00 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Replacing the Flyback Transformer From My VAXmate > > > > Rob - > > > > A DEC Part Number would speed up your Part Search. > > > > I have already searched for the DEC part number and drawn a blank. For > reference it is 16-27188-01. > > For me the problem is getting any data about the flybacks you find. I have > outline specs for what I need, but no info on the ones I find to help me > determine if they may be compatible. The mac page you quoted doesn't really > say how he determined that the replacement was compatible, but I will try > searching the apple communities to see if I can find more information. > > Thanks > > Rob > I've never saw a list of types with data or compativility list for FBTs. The best your proably can do is looking for another CRT Monitor with an similar Voltage (28V) as the power for the horizontal output stage and look at the schematics of that monitor how the FBT is to be wired to the CRT and the deflections coils. ..then try to get such an transformer from somewhere... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue May 19 13:45:30 2020 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 14:45:30 -0400 Subject: FTGH - Decstation 5000 plus many extras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that's the screen I'd really love to have for my vt240 but alas I'm too many continents away! Also not sure it'd plug in directly. Could you please tell me the model number and what the connectors look like? On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:48 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Lets have another go (but this time I have some pictures) > > Decstation 5000/125 ? also houses a CD drive. > Two expansion storage boxes ? one has a tape drive and the other one has > a floppy drive. > Two very large and heavy RGB Digital monitors ? one has both Digital and > Sony branding on the back of it. I haven?t dug the other one out as its > in a corner and is dam heavy but it looks the same as the other one. > Box of spares (RAM, CPU's, HDDs etc.) > > I?ve never powered it up ? it was a rescue ? I believe it was a server > in a TAFE college in Adelaide. This is all I got from the rescue bar the > box of spares. The original owner had tossed all the documentation and > software. > > Please note that the stand is not included in my offer and its located > in south western Victoria (Australia). > > Photos: > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/decstation/ > > > Kevin Parker > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 19 14:43:47 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 20:43:47 +0100 Subject: FTGH - Decstation 5000 plus many extras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19/05/2020 19:45, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > I think that's the screen I'd really love to have for my vt240 but alas I'm > too many continents away! Also not sure it'd plug in directly. Could you > please tell me the model number and what the connectors look like? I think the VT240 is a base unit plus a VR201 monitor (same monitor that is used by the DEC Rainbow and a few other DEC "PC" systems of that era). The VT241 is the same base unit (with a different bezel) with a VR241 monitor. I don't know what monitor is in that picture but I don't think that the VR241 was ever used on the DECstation 5000 series. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue May 19 15:43:22 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 21:43:22 +0100 Subject: FTGH - Decstation 5000 plus many extras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 19 May 2020, at 20:43, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 19/05/2020 19:45, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: >> I think that's the screen I'd really love to have for my vt240 but alas I'm >> too many continents away! Also not sure it'd plug in directly. Could you >> please tell me the model number and what the connectors look like? > > > I think the VT240 is a base unit plus a VR201 monitor (same monitor that is used by the DEC Rainbow and a few other DEC "PC" systems of that era). > > The VT241 is the same base unit (with a different bezel) with a VR241 monitor. > > > I don't know what monitor is in that picture but I don't think that the VR241 was ever used on the DECstation 5000 series. > That?s the famously heavy Trinitron-powered VRT19, the one that was on my hallway floor when you came to visit in happier climes. it?s a workstation monitor, RGB+sync-on-green and is for pretty much anything DEC with a 13W3 video connector. Not VT240/Rainbow. Remember me telling you about the static shock trick you could pull on people? :) Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 19 16:54:14 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 22:54:14 +0100 Subject: FTGH - Decstation 5000 plus many extras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <353c34b2-b4a2-aed2-94b5-8736fdf1744f@ntlworld.com> On 19/05/2020 21:43, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > > That?s the famously heavy Trinitron-powered VRT19, the one that was on my hallway floor when you came to visit in happier climes. Ah, I used to have one of those on my desk in REO2 at one point. I still have the very VAXstation 3100M76 that it was attached to, but luckily I didn't hang on to the monitor itself! You'll have to forgive me not remembering it: something that small was never going to standout in your collection, was it :-) > it?s a workstation monitor, RGB+sync-on-green and is for pretty much anything DEC with a 13W3 video connector. Not VT240/Rainbow. Remember me telling you about the static shock trick you could pull on people? :) > > Cheers, > Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 20 14:46:43 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:46:43 -0500 Subject: VT240 and LK201BA available In-Reply-To: <5EBD67CB.7040607@pico-systems.com> References: <68963d31-1ea0-f7da-6aba-a380bdc35606@bitsavers.org>, <5EBD67CB.7040607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5EC58923.5010501@pico-systems.com> I have a VT240 with LK201BA available in the St. Louis, MO area, if anyone is interested. I do not have the monitor that originally went with it. But, I think it will take any generic RS-170 monochrome monitor. It did work last time I used it, which was at least a decade ago. Jon From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed May 20 21:35:06 2020 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 22:35:06 -0400 Subject: 2.11bsd unix resolver Message-ID: Hi, I've installed the recent release of 2.11bsd on my pdp11/73 and recompiled the kernel to fit. But for some reason I can't resolve hosts from my /etc/hosts file now; only DNS names.. I'm not running BIND. Is there a setting that will allow me to find /etc/hosts entries first and then DNS in this operating system? I can't even resolve localhost! thx jake From cube1 at charter.net Wed May 20 21:21:16 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:21:16 -0500 Subject: SMS Data Gathering App Announcement Message-ID: As some here probably know, I have been working the last couple of years working towards an FGPA gate-authentic replica of the IBM 1410 - the larger cousin to the IBM 1401. In 2018 I developed an application for gathering information of of ALDs and stuffing it into a MySQL database, then spent the rest of the year entering the information from the ALDs into the system, but I did not share that application or the data. Then I took a year off - it had been a grind. This year I took up the torch again. I put the application up on github, gave it the requisite GPL attributions, and started tracking my bugs, fixes and enhancements there, even though I am working alone. I fixed some of the warts, generalized it some, fixed a few bugs, added some database checking reports and data checking reports, and so on. I also spent quite a bit of time generalizing it, so that it will hopefully be usable (perhaps with some more fixes / enhancements / generalizing for most any SMS machine (IBM 1620, IBM 709x, IBM 1401 etc. etc. etc.) The application is available on github at: https://github.com/cube1us/IBM1410SMS The actual "root" source control is on my system at home using subversion. I use "git svn" to keep a git version in sync, and then push that to github. The application was/is developed in C# under Visual Studio 2017 to run under Windows, primarily because I was interested in trying out C#. I would expect it to build in VS 2019 with little or no change, but have not tried it. I could have used a more basic tool setup (say, C or C++ and a non-windows presentation layer), but I figured not all that many people would be interested in the thing, and the VS environment eased development quite a bit. I suspect it would work OK under WINE, but I have not tried doing so. There are also a couple of tools, one in Perl for generating database related classes from the database, and one in Python for checking for database referential integrity. ( was curious about Python, and this seemed a good candidate for an evaluation of it. It did, however reinforce my dislike for many things about Python. The application is comprised of two Visual Studio projects, one for the data gather app itself, the other a very very light weight database interface, that ought to make it not too hard to port it to a different DBMS. github also has a copy of the database, the MySQL Workbench data model (and a PDF print) and documentation in MS Word (and a PDF print). The code is not good. There, I said it. It is not truly OO at all. I didn't do much refactoring even when I saw common code or saw considerable potential to consolidate code. The downside of that is that there is lots of duplicate code. The upside is that you don't have to go umpteen layers deep in OO design to figure out what the darn thing does. Doesn't even use database views, though they probably would have been helpful. Just a bunch of tables. Lots of tables in a close but not fully relational model. The data gathered by the application in the database comprises about: 917 ALD (Automated Logic Diagram) 11" x 17" pages 10596 Logic Blocks on those pages (so average of 11.5 per page) 1281 DOT functions (Wired OR / AND) 14021 Inter-sheet signals (which appear on multiple sheets) 4222 Distinct inter-sheet signals 32746 Connections between the above items That connection number makes me shake my head - I had to enter each and every one of the darn things. Yeesh. Capturing all of that was between something like 600 and 1000 hours, maybe more (but not 2000 hours), after maybe 200 hours on the initial version of the application. My next phase is working hard on the part of the project that generates HDL for FPGA synthesis. I expect that to take many months as I synthesize, simulate with the tool set and figure stuff out. I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. If folks find this interesting, and especially if they want to use it, I'd love to know about it. I intend to keep this a single-person effort, git-wise, but folks can feel free to fork (if anyone wants to bother ;) ), and let me know if they find anything seriously wrong. For what it's worth, my IBM 1410 cycle-level simulator for the IBM 1410 is also available, at: https://github.com/cube1us/1410 From cube1 at charter.net Wed May 20 21:22:17 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:22:17 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets Message-ID: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. JRJ From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 20 21:27:36 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:27:36 -0500 Subject: SMS Data Gathering App Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EC5E718.2070405@pico-systems.com> On 05/20/2020 09:21 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: WOW, what a huge effort! > I also spent quite a bit of time generalizing it, so that it will > hopefully be usable (perhaps with some more fixes / enhancements / > generalizing for most any SMS machine (IBM 1620, IBM 709x, IBM 1401 etc. > etc. etc.) > > Umm, if it can take ALDs, then (maybe with some tweaking) it ought to be able to do the same for SLT and MST machines, too! That might get a few more people interested in the concept. Jon From cube1 at charter.net Wed May 20 22:40:12 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 22:40:12 -0500 Subject: SMS Data Gathering App Announcement In-Reply-To: <5EC5E718.2070405@pico-systems.com> References: <5EC5E718.2070405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 5/20/2020 9:27 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/20/2020 09:21 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > WOW, what a huge effort! It has definitely been time consuming. ;) >> I also spent quite a bit of time generalizing it, so that it will >> hopefully be usable (perhaps with some more fixes / enhancements / >> generalizing for most any SMS machine (IBM 1620, IBM 709x, IBM 1401 etc. >> etc. etc.) >> >> > Umm, if it can take ALDs, then (maybe with some tweaking) it ought to be > able to do the > same for SLT and MST machines, too!? That might get a few more people > interested in the > concept. > > Jon I doubt it would be easy based on a quick look at an 1130 (1131-C) ALD. Some of the things I see: The card location chart is a lot different - how card slots are identified is different - the packaging is different. Pin names - while the database doesn't care, the application sort of presumes pin names with single or maybe two letters, but the SLT ones seem to be 3 characters (a letter and two digits). This might not be toooooo hard to deal with. ALD grid layout. The SMS is a 5 x 8 grid. The SLT one is (at least) 7 x 13. This would affect a couple of the dialogs in a major way (plus the grid coordinates themselves. It would need to be scrollable and have a more complex coodinate system. Card slot identification is different. The SLT drawings have little triangles on the inputs and outputs in some cases, which I suspect are for inverting inputs and outputs. The SMS application has sort of a notion of an inverted output, but not inputs. SMS drawings always have logic blocks of the same size (but sometimes with an extension to another block below it.) The SLT for the 1130 at least has some double and triple sized blocks. At least the way signals enter and leave sheets is more or less the same. ;) (Had to find one positive thing, ya know. ) Page nomenclature is very different, but in most places the app just treats it as a plain old string. (11.10.20.1 vs KG111 for example). So "that's another thing we've got" to borrow from a popular song with a twist. There are probably fields that would need to be added to capture more sophisticated logic block information. I'd have to read a manual on SLT ALDs and packaging to really know what other issues there might be (and I am sure there are plenty), but I expect it would not be easy to do. Of one thing I am certain: I am not personally going to tackle that. ;) JRJ From cclist at sytse.net Thu May 21 06:34:09 2020 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 13:34:09 +0200 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> If you?re targeting FPGA hardware (opposed to a design for a foundry, or a design you want to run exclusively in a simulator), it is kind of inevitable that you work with the toolchains that the hardware vendor supplies. Would be nice if you could choose freely from competing toolchains, but the hardware isn?t exactly open, so that?s not going to happen. So basically what it comes down to is Quartus or Vivado. I?ve kind of implicitly chosen Quartus, because the Altera based development boards tend to be a lot nicer and cheaper than the Xilinx based stuff. I haven?t even followed the upgrades from ISE to Vivado. Not sure if the level of doggyness is any different between those, it?s more like getting to know the specific bugs and working around them. Can be pretty annoying at times though. For instance, one of the things Quartus doesn?t get is that if source files are changed, it might make sense to recompile - it only gets that if you change sources through its own editor. Not really a big problem maybe, but it shows that the tools are far from friendly. One of the things I?ve done with my pdp11 vhdl from the start is that I?ve not used any vendor specific constructs or language extensions. That?s probably the only design decision that I?m still really happy about - it allows me to change to another vendor and another tool chain at will. Cheers Sytse > On 21 May 2020, at 04:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: > > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then > graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to > be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. > > JRJ > From emu at e-bbes.com Thu May 21 06:45:47 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 07:45:47 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: <0ac56c5d-8c5b-e9dd-15db-e8c36a45f2ca@e-bbes.com> On 2020-05-20 22:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: > > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then > graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to > be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. I feel your pain ;-) To deal with the ISE<->Vivado speeds, we always chose a target which is supported on both. One of the reasons, I have the artix7-100 on all my boards, makes life much easier. Then just use ISE for the "quick around" time, and vivado for the tough stuff. Vivado was pretty much useless in the first revisions, but now it is at a stage, where it is really usable. Yes, it is slow :( On the other hand, the simulator in Vivado got much better, and works for both, Verilog & VHDL, and also in mixed mode, which helps a lot. And it is tough to complain about a free tool, which runs on Linux & Win ... A lot of guys I know, use also GHDL for simulations, if command line is your thing. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu May 21 06:45:47 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 07:45:47 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: <0ac56c5d-8c5b-e9dd-15db-e8c36a45f2ca@e-bbes.com> On 2020-05-20 22:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: > > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then > graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to > be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. I feel your pain ;-) To deal with the ISE<->Vivado speeds, we always chose a target which is supported on both. One of the reasons, I have the artix7-100 on all my boards, makes life much easier. Then just use ISE for the "quick around" time, and vivado for the tough stuff. Vivado was pretty much useless in the first revisions, but now it is at a stage, where it is really usable. Yes, it is slow :( On the other hand, the simulator in Vivado got much better, and works for both, Verilog & VHDL, and also in mixed mode, which helps a lot. And it is tough to complain about a free tool, which runs on Linux & Win ... A lot of guys I know, use also GHDL for simulations, if command line is your thing. From steven at malikoff.com Thu May 21 07:38:20 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 22:38:20 +1000 Subject: SMS Data Gathering App Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71ba30c18ffd65b36bd79c831a91d183.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Jay said > The application was/is developed in C# under Visual Studio 2017 to run > under Windows, primarily because I was interested in trying out C#. I > would expect it to build in VS 2019 with little or no change, but have > not tried it. It builds under VS2019 but I needed to add the Nuget package for MySql.Data to fix the references up, and also changed the connection string a little. I also should have looked at the contents of the directory a little more closely as I did not see the .sql.gz there initially, and ended up converting the proprietary LarryWare .mwb file to .sql and then wondering why there was no example data when I ran it.. After noticing the compressed db, unzipped and scripted it in and it all loaded up. The importing is a bit flaky for one or two types but wow, what an amazing project, that is a huge amount of work you've put into it! I guess one day it could be extended to cover SLT too???!!! :) Great job Jay. Steve From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu May 21 07:41:34 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 14:41:34 +0200 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> Message-ID: <20200521124134.GA17421@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 01:34:09PM +0200, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: [...] > So basically what it comes down to is Quartus or Vivado. I?ve kind of > implicitly chosen Quartus, because the Altera based development boards tend > to be a lot nicer and cheaper than the Xilinx based stuff. I haven?t even > followed the upgrades from ISE to Vivado. My understanding from when I was looing at FPGAs in ~2013 is that Xilinx make better FPGAs than Altera (now Intel), but Altera's tools are better. Having had the "joy" of using Altera's Quartus, I dread to think how terrible ISE must be. >From a cursory check, Vivado appears to be just an rebranded newer version of ISE rather than a fundamental change. Quartus puts me in mind of the dark days of the 1980s with its expensive, closed-source, and generally shoddy software development environments before GNU came along and wiped them out. Good riddance do the lot of them. Even the HDLs themselves are stuck in the 1980s. Verilog is described as being C-like, but that's not exactly a compliment. VHDL is Ada-like or Pascal-like, i.e. designed by a committee and/or academics who have definite opinions about how other people should write code, but don't do much of it themselves. There are at least finally some open-source HDLs banging about which have incorporated useful ideas from the last four decades of language design and thus be easier to create correct code. (Thich is a crucial difference from "easier to create something which runs", which is C/Verilog's schtick.) Unfortunately, because of the lack of documententation on the FPGA bitstreams, the best they can do is be a source-to-source translator piped into the proprietary tooling. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 21 09:51:35 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:51:35 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: > On May 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: > > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then > graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to > be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. > > JRJ I have been working, very slowly, on a project analogous to yours: a gate level model of the CDC 6600 supercomputer. The source material for this is the wiring lists, which show the module connections and also the module logic diagrams. I used the diagrams to create gate-level models for each module, and ran the wire lists through OCR to get the connections. Those are then run through a simple Python program to generate the equivalent structural model. I wanted to start with simulation, and treat synthesis as a later step. So rather than use any particular vendor tools I used GHDL. That works quite nicely. Among other benefits, since it generates executable code (it's a GCC front end) it can call C functions. In my case, the memory and I/O devices are C models, which the VHDL code talks to. GHDL supports output to GTKwave to let you see what it is doing. And, at least to some extent, you can use GDB on it. I haven't done much of that. The whole process of going from wiring to VHDL is quite straightforward. Getting the wire lists exactly correct takes some work partly because of OCR errors and partly because there may be typos in the wire lists. Also in the 6600 case, the wire lists are per chassis and they aren't all the same revision of the product. :-( If the timing in your machine is reasonably sane and has enough margin, the simulation should be painless and synthesis should produce few issues. If you have bits that are sensitive to wire or circuit delays, that's different. Unfortunately, the 6600 is utterly infested with such issues, to the point that it's hard to see how it ever worked at all -- the timing documented in the manuals and implied by the wiring can't actually work. A 1410 is probably better, especially considering that IBM had some senior designers who had experienced timing pain first-hand and had learned to avoid it. I'm thinking of people like Gerrit Blaauw (not sure if he was on that project, though). If you have delay-sensitive elements, that will probably require adding extra stages to the logic, such as additional latches, to produce the required sequencing with modern logic, which in turn may require extra clock phases. Here too the 6600 is amazingly painful: I found myself with a 20-phase clock to get even close to sane operation, in what is typically described as a four phase clock design. Others have mentioned Verilog. I have no experience with that. I landed on VHDL mostly by accident, because I wanted an open source simulator and GHDL showed up. There may be open source Verilog simulators at this point, I'm not sure. Avoiding Windows was also a requirement. paul From sales at elecplus.com Thu May 21 10:37:37 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:37:37 -0500 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals Message-ID: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> https://www.vecmar.com/products/search.asp Type in keyboard The first result allows a terminal keyboard to be used on a PS/2 port. The second result allows a PS/2 keyboard to be used on a terminal. Not affiliated with seller, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 10:46:38 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:46:38 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> Message-ID: Helpful tips - I agree with avoiding vendor extensions. Thanks. I seem to recall some issues regarding edits inside vs. outside Vivado as well, but it has been more than a year, so the recollection is fuzzy. JRJ On 5/21/2020 6:34 AM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > If you?re targeting FPGA hardware (opposed to a design for a foundry, or a design you want to run exclusively in a simulator), it is kind of inevitable that you work with the toolchains that the hardware vendor supplies. Would be nice if you could choose freely from competing toolchains, but the hardware isn?t exactly open, so that?s not going to happen. > > So basically what it comes down to is Quartus or Vivado. I?ve kind of implicitly chosen Quartus, because the Altera based development boards tend to be a lot nicer and cheaper than the Xilinx based stuff. I haven?t even followed the upgrades from ISE to Vivado. > > Not sure if the level of doggyness is any different between those, it?s more like getting to know the specific bugs and working around them. Can be pretty annoying at times though. For instance, one of the things Quartus doesn?t get is that if source files are changed, it might make sense to recompile - it only gets that if you change sources through its own editor. Not really a big problem maybe, but it shows that the tools are far from friendly. > > One of the things I?ve done with my pdp11 vhdl from the start is that I?ve not used any vendor specific constructs or language extensions. That?s probably the only design decision that I?m still really happy about - it allows me to change to another vendor and another tool chain at will. > > Cheers > Sytse > >> On 21 May 2020, at 04:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: >> >> I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used >> for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then >> graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to >> be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. >> >> JRJ >> > From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 10:55:18 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:55:18 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <0ac56c5d-8c5b-e9dd-15db-e8c36a45f2ca@e-bbes.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <0ac56c5d-8c5b-e9dd-15db-e8c36a45f2ca@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6afdeaae-9e0e-803e-e99d-4a6333f84497@charter.net> On 5/21/2020 6:45 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2020-05-20 22:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: >> >> I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used >> for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then >> graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to >> be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. > > I feel your pain ;-) > > To deal with the ISE<->Vivado speeds, we always chose a target which is > supported on both. One of the reasons, I have the artix7-100 on all my > boards, makes life much easier. > Then just use ISE for the "quick around" time, and vivado for the tough > stuff. > That's a great suggestion. Fortunately, I do have experience with the DLL fix for ISE, which they no longer support, so I can run ISE if I want to. And, hey, if the design fits, I even have an older Nexsys 2 to fit it to. > Vivado was pretty much useless in the first revisions, but now it is at > a stage, where it is really usable. Yes, it is slow :( Even that confirmation is helpful. ;) > On the other hand, the simulator in Vivado got much better, and works > for both, Verilog & VHDL, and also in mixed mode, which helps a lot. > > And it is tough to complain about a free tool, which runs on Linux & Win ... > As a hobbyist, I agree. If I were doing this stuff professionally, in quantity, I'd be all over them like a wet blanket just from a standpoint of lost productive time. I suspect that if either one, Intel/Altera or Xilinx came up with a substantially more productive toolchain, it could move the needle on market share. > A lot of guys I know, use also GHDL for simulations, if command line is > your thing. > I have seen that suggestion from another correspondent on the list as well, and I think it is a good one, likely to save lots of time. I don't mind command lines - I go all the way back through UNIX 6th edition to card decks. ;) Thanks. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 10:55:18 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:55:18 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <0ac56c5d-8c5b-e9dd-15db-e8c36a45f2ca@e-bbes.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <0ac56c5d-8c5b-e9dd-15db-e8c36a45f2ca@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6afdeaae-9e0e-803e-e99d-4a6333f84497@charter.net> On 5/21/2020 6:45 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2020-05-20 22:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: >> >> I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used >> for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then >> graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to >> be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. > > I feel your pain ;-) > > To deal with the ISE<->Vivado speeds, we always chose a target which is > supported on both. One of the reasons, I have the artix7-100 on all my > boards, makes life much easier. > Then just use ISE for the "quick around" time, and vivado for the tough > stuff. > That's a great suggestion. Fortunately, I do have experience with the DLL fix for ISE, which they no longer support, so I can run ISE if I want to. And, hey, if the design fits, I even have an older Nexsys 2 to fit it to. > Vivado was pretty much useless in the first revisions, but now it is at > a stage, where it is really usable. Yes, it is slow :( Even that confirmation is helpful. ;) > On the other hand, the simulator in Vivado got much better, and works > for both, Verilog & VHDL, and also in mixed mode, which helps a lot. > > And it is tough to complain about a free tool, which runs on Linux & Win ... > As a hobbyist, I agree. If I were doing this stuff professionally, in quantity, I'd be all over them like a wet blanket just from a standpoint of lost productive time. I suspect that if either one, Intel/Altera or Xilinx came up with a substantially more productive toolchain, it could move the needle on market share. > A lot of guys I know, use also GHDL for simulations, if command line is > your thing. > I have seen that suggestion from another correspondent on the list as well, and I think it is a good one, likely to save lots of time. I don't mind command lines - I go all the way back through UNIX 6th edition to card decks. ;) Thanks. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 11:02:22 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:02:22 -0500 Subject: SMS Data Gathering App Announcement In-Reply-To: <71ba30c18ffd65b36bd79c831a91d183.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <71ba30c18ffd65b36bd79c831a91d183.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 5/21/2020 7:38 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > Jay said >> The application was/is developed in C# under Visual Studio 2017 to run >> under Windows, primarily because I was interested in trying out C#. I >> would expect it to build in VS 2019 with little or no change, but have >> not tried it. > > It builds under VS2019 but I needed to add the Nuget package for MySql.Data > to fix the references up, and also changed the connection string a little. > Thanks for doing that. Good to hear! Yeah, the connection info should probably really be in little flat ini file somewhere. > I also should have looked at the contents of the directory a little more > closely as I did not see the .sql.gz there initially, and ended up converting > the proprietary LarryWare .mwb file to .sql and then wondering why there was no > example data when I ran it.. > "LarryWare". ;) Chuckle. Hadn't heard that one before. BTW, that is more than just an "example". That database is an up to date snapshot of the actual database I am working with (for machine 1411). I take a new snapshot whenever I change the database design (typically these days only to add columns or tables.) The other stuff is just junk for safely testing. > After noticing the compressed db, unzipped and scripted it in and it all loaded > up. The importing is a bit flaky for one or two types but wow, what an amazing > project, that is a huge amount of work you've put into it! I guess one day it > could be extended to cover SLT too???!!! :) Yes, the imports are shaky, and the spreadsheet data has not been updated as I have corrected errors in the data. I have fixed up a few things in the import code as I came across them, but for sure one would want to back up the database before using them. ;) There was a separate discussion of SLT. It would take time, but probably not impossibly long. I am very unlikely to undertake the effort, though. > > Great job Jay. > Thanks. > Steve > JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 11:06:52 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:06:52 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <20200521124134.GA17421@mooli.org.uk> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> <20200521124134.GA17421@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 5/21/2020 7:41 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 01:34:09PM +0200, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> So basically what it comes down to is Quartus or Vivado. I?ve kind of >> implicitly chosen Quartus, because the Altera based development boards tend >> to be a lot nicer and cheaper than the Xilinx based stuff. I haven?t even >> followed the upgrades from ISE to Vivado. > > My understanding from when I was looing at FPGAs in ~2013 is that Xilinx make > better FPGAs than Altera (now Intel), but Altera's tools are better. Having had > the "joy" of using Altera's Quartus, I dread to think how terrible ISE must be. >>From a cursory check, Vivado appears to be just an rebranded newer version of > ISE rather than a fundamental change. ISE isn't/wasn't so bad, performance-wise. Vivado has been painful. > > Quartus puts me in mind of the dark days of the 1980s with its expensive, > closed-source, and generally shoddy software development environments before > GNU came along and wiped them out. Good riddance do the lot of them. > > Even the HDLs themselves are stuck in the 1980s. Verilog is described as being > C-like, but that's not exactly a compliment. VHDL is Ada-like or Pascal-like, > i.e. designed by a committee and/or academics who have definite opinions about > how other people should write code, but don't do much of it themselves. The design of my application is such that it should not be difficult to adapt it to generate whatever kind of HDL one might want. I learned both Verilog and VHDL along the way, using the Mano/Kime book "Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals" - it was a coin flip which I decided to work with first. (Prof. Charles Kime was my adviser when I was an ECE student in the early 1970's). > > There are at least finally some open-source HDLs banging about which have > incorporated useful ideas from the last four decades of language design and > thus be easier to create correct code. (Thich is a crucial difference from > "easier to create something which runs", which is C/Verilog's schtick.) > Unfortunately, because of the lack of documententation on the FPGA bitstreams, > the best they can do is be a source-to-source translator piped into the > proprietary tooling. > That's an interesting idea for later, maybe. Thanks. JRJ From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 21 11:07:14 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:07:14 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> On 05/20/2020 09:22 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: > > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then > graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to > be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. Well, I don't use the latest, super fast FPGAs, I go for old standards that are cheap. Right now, I have ise 13.4 installed on Linux, it seems to be stable, quite fast for the small FPGAs I do, and doesn't complain about my coding style. I use mostly Spartan 3 in the XC3S50A(N) sizes. I've done some units with 32-bit counters running at 150 MHz with plenty of margin left, that's fast enough for me. I only use VHDL, although I can read Verilog. (I also use Coolrunner II and XC9500XL devices in some of my products.) Jon From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 11:21:34 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:21:34 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: <971af32f-3832-7a3b-c002-1968b1366f8e@charter.net> On 5/21/2020 9:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On May 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: >> >> I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used >> for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then >> graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to >> be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. >> >> JRJ > > I have been working, very slowly, on a project analogous to yours: a gate level model of the CDC 6600 supercomputer. I recall you mentioning that along the way. You have my sympathy and empathy. ;) > > The source material for this is the wiring lists, which show the module connections and also the module logic diagrams. I used the diagrams to create gate-level models for each module, and ran the wire lists through OCR to get the connections. Those are then run through a simple Python program to generate the equivalent structural model. > > I wanted to start with simulation, and treat synthesis as a later step. So rather than use any particular vendor tools I used GHDL. That works quite nicely. Among other benefits, since it generates executable code (it's a GCC front end) it can call C functions. In my case, the memory and I/O devices are C models, which the VHDL code talks to. GHDL supports output to GTKwave to let you see what it is doing. And, at least to some extent, you can use GDB on it. I haven't done much of that. > My eventual plans for I/O devices is to use one of the various serial busses for that, talking to additional FPGAs or even microcontrollers. > The whole process of going from wiring to VHDL is quite straightforward. Getting the wire lists exactly correct takes some work partly because of OCR errors and partly because there may be typos in the wire lists. Also in the 6600 case, the wire lists are per chassis and they aren't all the same revision of the product. :-( > Again, I sympathize and empathize. I am in the same boat with the IBM 1410. I was a little naive when I picked through the materials to decide what to take to scan, and time was limited. The 1410 had an "accelerator" feature. Most of the pages I have are for that version, but not all of them (and my reports pick up on some issues that result from that.) Worse, I have a few missing pages, where I'll just have to hand code something based on the CE Instructional materials and lessons learned when I wrote my simulator. > If the timing in your machine is reasonably sane and has enough margin, the simulation should be painless and synthesis should produce few issues. If you have bits that are sensitive to wire or circuit delays, that's different. Unfortunately, the 6600 is utterly infested with such issues, to the point that it's hard to see how it ever worked at all -- the timing documented in the manuals and implied by the wiring can't actually work. A 1410 is probably better, especially considering that IBM had some senior designers who had experienced timing pain first-hand and had learned to avoid it. I'm thinking of people like Gerrit Blaauw (not sure if he was on that project, though). There may be some such sensitivities, but I doubt there are many - the 1410 was not a fast machine by any stretch of the imagination. Actually, the situation I am most concerned about in that department is that the FPGA signals will propagate faster than the original, so a signal might change state too quickly as compared to the original. I took a course in semiconductor physics from Prof. Henry Guckel at U. Wisconsin. He described working for IBM on some really fast machines (like the 360/95, I think). He described pulling their hair out (and he didn't have much left) where they would add some delays in places to make timing work, and by the time they were done with that effort, the result was the machine ran more slowly than it did with a slower system clock. > > If you have delay-sensitive elements, that will probably require adding extra stages to the logic, such as additional latches, to produce the required sequencing with modern logic, which in turn may require extra clock phases. Here too the 6600 is amazingly painful: I found myself with a 20-phase clock to get even close to sane operation, in what is typically described as a four phase clock design. Fortunately the 1410 seems to be much much simpler, and largely asynchronous. It has at most two phases: the main 1.5 MHz (well, on the ALD 1.5 MC ;) ) clock and one that is delayed a bit in order to make one trigger work correctly. After that there is just the main clock pulse stream, and a 2nd one that is 180 degrees out of phase. > > Others have mentioned Verilog. I have no experience with that. I landed on VHDL mostly by accident, because I wanted an open source simulator and GHDL showed up. There may be open source Verilog simulators at this point, I'm not sure. Avoiding Windows was also a requirement. I looked at both. I am using VHDL now, but the structure of the HDL generation code is such that adding Verilog should not be difficult. > > paul > Thanks for the reply. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 11:22:59 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:22:59 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <49f02121-aab6-4551-5d78-f8268329a56c@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <49f02121-aab6-4551-5d78-f8268329a56c@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <8ca9aad7-f369-1d14-5317-da86b478e860@charter.net> On 5/21/2020 10:00 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >> > Paul, your project is super interesting. Is there a website where I can track it? > > --tom > Mainly the github.com/cube1us/IBM1410SMS . I do have a website: www.computercollection.net . I do post there, but not often. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 11:24:15 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:24:15 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 5/21/2020 11:07 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/20/2020 09:22 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: >> >> I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used >> for HDL (VHDL in particular).? I started with Xilinx ISE and then >> graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to >> be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize >> logic. > Well, I don't use the latest, super fast FPGAs, I go for old standards > that are cheap. > Right now, I have ise 13.4 installed on Linux, it seems to be stable, > quite fast for the small FPGAs > I do, and doesn't complain about my coding style.? I use mostly Spartan > 3 in the > XC3S50A(N)? sizes.? I've done some units with 32-bit counters running at > 150 MHz with plenty > of margin left, that's fast enough for me.? I only use VHDL, although I > can read Verilog. > (I also use Coolrunner II and XC9500XL devices in some of my products.) > > Jon Yes, ISE was much better than Vivado, but doesn't support the chip on my Nexys4 Xilink development board. I do have ISE running with the requisite DLL fixup. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 11:27:50 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:27:50 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <8ca9aad7-f369-1d14-5317-da86b478e860@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <49f02121-aab6-4551-5d78-f8268329a56c@figureeightbrewing.com> <8ca9aad7-f369-1d14-5317-da86b478e860@charter.net> Message-ID: <969caad6-c84f-4bcc-6526-a21983d8531e@charter.net> On 5/21/2020 11:22 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 5/21/2020 10:00 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >>> >> Paul, your project is super interesting. Is there a website where I can track it? >> >> --tom >> > > Mainly the github.com/cube1us/IBM1410SMS . > > I do have a website: www.computercollection.net . I do post there, but > not often. > > JRJ > D'oh. Never mind. I'm not Paul, of cousre. ;) JRJ From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 21 11:48:13 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 12:48:13 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <49f02121-aab6-4551-5d78-f8268329a56c@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <49f02121-aab6-4551-5d78-f8268329a56c@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <1CAB9C25-5416-4E86-BD61-C4BE6CA56B60@comcast.net> > On May 21, 2020, at 11:00 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > > On 5/21/20 9:51 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ... >> I have been working, very slowly, on a project analogous to yours: a gate level model of the CDC 6600 supercomputer. >> ... > Paul, your project is super interesting. Is there a website where I can track it? Not a website, but you can see the source files on my Subversion server: svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/dtcyber/trunk -- the model code and tools are in the "vhdl" subdirectory. FYA, there's also a "spice" subdirectory, which contains my attempts at a model of the DD60 display console. It's not accurate enough yet, unfortunately. The 6600 model has working peripherals processors and display controller. The CPU doesn't work yet, I'm still debugging the instruction fetch machinery to get all the variations of branch timing right. It does start, though (the "exchange jump" instruction works). paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 21 11:55:50 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 12:55:50 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <971af32f-3832-7a3b-c002-1968b1366f8e@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <971af32f-3832-7a3b-c002-1968b1366f8e@charter.net> Message-ID: <0F7A6E52-DD62-4ABB-B090-113AD830A6A9@comcast.net> > On May 21, 2020, at 12:21 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > On 5/21/2020 9:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> > ... >> If the timing in your machine is reasonably sane and has enough margin, the simulation should be painless and synthesis should produce few issues. If you have bits that are sensitive to wire or circuit delays, that's different. Unfortunately, the 6600 is utterly infested with such issues, to the point that it's hard to see how it ever worked at all -- the timing documented in the manuals and implied by the wiring can't actually work. A 1410 is probably better, especially considering that IBM had some senior designers who had experienced timing pain first-hand and had learned to avoid it. I'm thinking of people like Gerrit Blaauw (not sure if he was on that project, though). > > There may be some such sensitivities, but I doubt there are many - the > 1410 was not a fast machine by any stretch of the imagination. > Actually, the situation I am most concerned about in that department is > that the FPGA signals will propagate faster than the original, so a > signal might change state too quickly as compared to the original. This sort of question is why I found starting with the simulator is helpful. In a simulation you can specify delays directly. So for my 6600, I have the gate delay (5 ns) and the wire delays (1.3 ns per foot, in the twisted pair, or 25 ns for coax cables including tx/rx circuit). Actually, I only include wire delays for "long" wires; the design clearly uses wires longer than needed in various places for delay reasons, but my guess is that short wires are not time sensitive. That may be wrong; I need to run it again without that assumption to see if it helps. Once the design works that way, I can then see what would happen in synthesis, by replacing the original stage and wire delays by much smaller values. Any place where that breaks things needs an explicit register inserted to replace the wire "register". I know there will be a bunch of those, hopefully hundreds and not tens of thousands. For more sane machines like a 1410 or an EL-X8, the same approach lets you determine whether there is any timing sensitive stuff in the design. If not, then changing the model delays from "original" to "very fast" would break nothing. If so, turning off the delays gives you a synthesizable design, or very nearly one. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 21 12:20:17 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:20:17 -0600 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 9:37 AM Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://www.vecmar.com/products/search.asp > Type in keyboard > The first result allows a terminal keyboard to be used on a PS/2 port. > The second result allows a PS/2 keyboard to be used on a terminal. > >From the limited information available (almost none), it appears that they are selling passive adapters that work with ADDS 4000 terminals that use PS/2 protocol on a modular jack. As has been noted earlier in this thread, there are a huge number of computers that use modular plugs and jacks for keyboard interfaces, and there is NO standard for their electrical or protocol characteristics. Plugging in the wrong combination can result in damage to either or both devices. Even using the wrong modular cable can do that, because common 4P4C modular cables are wired with a flip (1 to 4, 2 to 3, etc), while modular cables for computers are sometimes (e.g. Macintosh 128/512/Plus) wired straight through (1 to 1, 2 to 2, etc.) IMNSHO, there's a special place in hell reserved for those who have designed equipment to (ab)use modular connectors other than for telephone lines and 10BASEx Ethernet, and I really think a better connector should have been chosen for 10BASEx. DEC using MMJ may get a pass because they at least attempted to prevent connecting the wrong stuff together. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 21 12:24:40 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:24:40 -0600 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:07 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > (I also use Coolrunner II and XC9500XL devices in some of my > products.) > I used to use XC9500XL series (mostly XC9572XL) quite a bit, but I have switched to Lattice LC4000ZE series because they are less expensive and lower power, and (like the XC9500XL) have 5V tolerant inputs. I'm not thrilled with having to use yet another different toolset, but c'est la vie. From dab at froghouse.org Thu May 21 07:57:00 2020 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:57:00 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: On 5/20/20 10:22 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I've been using Verilog rather than VHDL but I started with Quartus for a little while then moved over to Vivado which I like a little better.? I agree with Peter's point that I sure wish the bitstreams were open so that a crop of open-source tools could be developed and we'd have a bit more choice.? Along these lines, I've been wondering if I ought to take a closer look at SymbiFlow, but I have digressed. What I really use more often though is the Icarus Verilog simulator.? Besides Verilog testbenches, I've been running the PDP-10 diagnostics under Icarus.? I even wrote a PDP-10 disassembler in Verilog so it disassembles and prints out the instructions as it executes them. I also came across Verilator, a Verilog to C++ compiler.? It makes for faster running simulations but so far I'm only using it for its 'lint' function which is pretty nice.? It catches logic loops that just put Icarus into infinite loops. From dk at thewaffleiron.net Thu May 21 08:23:39 2020 From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 09:23:39 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> Message-ID: I've taken to using parts supported by the open source toolchains & IP, that mostly limits me to using Lattice parts, but the efficiencies obtained from not instancing all the extra garbage from a vendor's IP library is worth it. When you use the vendor tools, they want to waste as many gates as they can get away with so you buy larger more expensive parts. The open source toolchains optimize out stuff that would just get left dangling. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5018 gives a good overview of what this can look like and the NeTV2 is a project that uses the migen/litex toolchain well. On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:34 AM Sytse van Slooten via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If you?re targeting FPGA hardware (opposed to a design for a foundry, or a > design you want to run exclusively in a simulator), it is kind of > inevitable that you work with the toolchains that the hardware vendor > supplies. Would be nice if you could choose freely from competing > toolchains, but the hardware isn?t exactly open, so that?s not going to > happen. > > So basically what it comes down to is Quartus or Vivado. I?ve kind of > implicitly chosen Quartus, because the Altera based development boards tend > to be a lot nicer and cheaper than the Xilinx based stuff. I haven?t even > followed the upgrades from ISE to Vivado. > > Not sure if the level of doggyness is any different between those, it?s > more like getting to know the specific bugs and working around them. Can be > pretty annoying at times though. For instance, one of the things Quartus > doesn?t get is that if source files are changed, it might make sense to > recompile - it only gets that if you change sources through its own editor. > Not really a big problem maybe, but it shows that the tools are far from > friendly. > > One of the things I?ve done with my pdp11 vhdl from the start is that I?ve > not used any vendor specific constructs or language extensions. That?s > probably the only design decision that I?m still really happy about - it > allows me to change to another vendor and another tool chain at will. > > Cheers > Sytse > > > On 21 May 2020, at 04:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: > > > > As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: > > > > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then > > graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to > > be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize > logic. > > > > JRJ > > > > From camiel at camicom.com Thu May 21 08:48:17 2020 From: camiel at camicom.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 15:48:17 +0200 Subject: Nova BASIC paper tape image Message-ID: Does anyone have an image of the BASIC interpreter paper tape for the DG Nova? From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu May 21 10:00:50 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:00:50 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: <49f02121-aab6-4551-5d78-f8268329a56c@figureeightbrewing.com> On 5/21/20 9:51 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: >> >> I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used >> for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then >> graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to >> be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. >> >> JRJ > I have been working, very slowly, on a project analogous to yours: a gate level model of the CDC 6600 supercomputer. > > The source material for this is the wiring lists, which show the module connections and also the module logic diagrams. I used the diagrams to create gate-level models for each module, and ran the wire lists through OCR to get the connections. Those are then run through a simple Python program to generate the equivalent structural model. > > I wanted to start with simulation, and treat synthesis as a later step. So rather than use any particular vendor tools I used GHDL. That works quite nicely. Among other benefits, since it generates executable code (it's a GCC front end) it can call C functions. In my case, the memory and I/O devices are C models, which the VHDL code talks to. GHDL supports output to GTKwave to let you see what it is doing. And, at least to some extent, you can use GDB on it. I haven't done much of that. > > The whole process of going from wiring to VHDL is quite straightforward. Getting the wire lists exactly correct takes some work partly because of OCR errors and partly because there may be typos in the wire lists. Also in the 6600 case, the wire lists are per chassis and they aren't all the same revision of the product. :-( > > If the timing in your machine is reasonably sane and has enough margin, the simulation should be painless and synthesis should produce few issues. If you have bits that are sensitive to wire or circuit delays, that's different. Unfortunately, the 6600 is utterly infested with such issues, to the point that it's hard to see how it ever worked at all -- the timing documented in the manuals and implied by the wiring can't actually work. A 1410 is probably better, especially considering that IBM had some senior designers who had experienced timing pain first-hand and had learned to avoid it. I'm thinking of people like Gerrit Blaauw (not sure if he was on that project, though). > > If you have delay-sensitive elements, that will probably require adding extra stages to the logic, such as additional latches, to produce the required sequencing with modern logic, which in turn may require extra clock phases. Here too the 6600 is amazingly painful: I found myself with a 20-phase clock to get even close to sane operation, in what is typically described as a four phase clock design. > > Others have mentioned Verilog. I have no experience with that. I landed on VHDL mostly by accident, because I wanted an open source simulator and GHDL showed up. There may be open source Verilog simulators at this point, I'm not sure. Avoiding Windows was also a requirement. > > paul > Paul, your project is super interesting. Is there a website where I can track it? --tom From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 21 11:16:48 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:16:48 -0500 Subject: SMS Data Gathering App Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <5EC5E718.2070405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5EC6A970.6080006@pico-systems.com> On 05/20/2020 10:40 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > On 5/20/2020 9:27 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> Umm, if it can take ALDs, then (maybe with some tweaking) it ought to be >> able to do the >> same for SLT and MST machines, too! That might get a few more people >> interested in the >> concept. >> >> Jon > I doubt it would be easy based on a quick look at an 1130 (1131-C) ALD. > OK, these are the sort of issues I expected would be encountered. But, there have been rumors of people trying to do gate-level reimplementations of 360s and 370s so accurate they would run diagnostics and FLT decks without squawks. Such a tool would make a project like that more approachable. But, yes, that's for somebody who wants to do such a project to make the conversion. (I tried to build a quasi-360 in 1981 or so. I built a 32-bit AMD 2903/2910 microcode engine with a Z-80 CP/M as front end and diagnostic console. I got that working at 125 ns cycle time for 2-address instructions, but then realized HOW MUCH work lay ahead before I could actually run a program on it, no less have an OS and peripherals on it. I still have it in my basement. See: http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html if interested. ) Jon From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu May 21 11:45:01 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:45:01 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <969caad6-c84f-4bcc-6526-a21983d8531e@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <49f02121-aab6-4551-5d78-f8268329a56c@figureeightbrewing.com> <8ca9aad7-f369-1d14-5317-da86b478e860@charter.net> <969caad6-c84f-4bcc-6526-a21983d8531e@charter.net> Message-ID: <6c542e8d-7962-3ad2-59dc-4151a2657fa3@figureeightbrewing.com> On 5/21/20 11:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 5/21/2020 11:22 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/21/2020 10:00 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >>> Paul, your project is super interesting. Is there a website where I can track it? >>> >>> --tom >>> >> Mainly the github.com/cube1us/IBM1410SMS . >> >> I do have a website: www.computercollection.net . I do post there, but >> not often. >> >> JRJ >> > D'oh. Never mind. I'm not Paul, of cousre. ;) > > JRJ No worries. Your collection looks quite nice, matching mine with regard to PDP-11s in many ways. I never did anything with IBM machines, but old hardware is still interesting. Best, --tom From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 21 12:25:16 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:25:16 -0600 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> Message-ID: <24d37967-3c4d-1ff5-0b78-c4ca7ab1ce67@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/20/2020 8:22 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > As I wrote in my last post, but write here for use as a separate thread: > > I'd be interesting in hearing from folks what toolsets they have used > for HDL (VHDL in particular). I started with Xilinx ISE and then > graduated to Vivado for later chipsets - unfortunately, Vivado seems to > be something of a dog, in terms of time to compile HDL and synthesize logic. > > JRJ > I use ALTERA (now INTEL) as hobby and the AHDL programing language. What I found is compiling simple logic is no problem but real world problems tend to device specific to the FPGA brand like ram or rom memory and acessing said items. Things are not portable is if need a popup wizard to define some feature. Ben. From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 21 12:42:33 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 12:42:33 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5d4a327e-8f6e-3933-9bb3-71fc198c582e@jbrain.com> On 5/21/2020 12:24 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:07 AM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > >> (I also use Coolrunner II and XC9500XL devices in some of my >> products.) >> > I used to use XC9500XL series (mostly XC9572XL) quite a bit, but I have > switched to Lattice LC4000ZE series because they are less expensive and > lower power, and (like the XC9500XL) have 5V tolerant inputs. > > I'm not thrilled with having to use yet another different toolset, but > c'est la vie. Is it possible for you or someone to post about how to get an environment up and running in Windows and/or Linux? (or link to one you used?) I use xc9500xl parts with IDE 14.7 on Win10 x64 (with DLL fix) here, and the environment works well.? But, I have a few things that I would love to fix/address: * CPLD work goes fine with the fix, but the FPGA toolchain portions of ISE won't work in Windows 10, even with the DLL fix (at least for me).? I'd like to fix this, as some of my designs are too big for xc95288xl. * Alan Hightower praises the open source toolchains and Lattice units, but my initial attempt to bring up a working environment here went down in flames. I think I need a step-by-step guide (and maybe someone who has time to help a poor soul get something up and running) * As much as I like the GUI, I want to learn how to write (or beg/borrow/steal) Makefile-based tooling for all my CPLD projects, whether Xilinx or other. All my existing CPLD work is online: https://github.com/go4retro/ , warts and all. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From emu at e-bbes.com Thu May 21 13:09:22 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 14:09:22 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> Message-ID: <75cff629-7cdd-85ba-9e10-ef526bbf808f@e-bbes.com> On 2020-05-21 07:34, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: > One of the things I?ve done with my pdp11 vhdl from the start is that I?ve not used any vendor specific constructs or language extensions. That?s probably the only design decision that I?m still really happy about - it allows me to change to another vendor and another tool chain at will. That's actually VERY important! There is always a way, to get around the vendor specifics, and actually, all three (altera/lattice/xilinx) got better over time, to figure what you actually like to do (inferring RAM/ROM/Tables etc.). So using the vendor specific stuff, gets you the last ns squeezed out of the design, but in most cases it isn't necessary. However, in some cases, you can't get around (DDR3/DDR4/etc) it is simpler to use the Macros/Wizard to do. And, just look around, there are some open projects, which use all three in them, so you can learn a lot, how to hide the differences ... Personally, I like to play with all of them, also to be able to compare chips & tool chain. (made some carrier boards, and plug in little modules, which just contain the FPGAs on them, to be able to easier exchange them) Cheers! From alan at alanlee.org Thu May 21 14:13:18 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 15:13:18 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> Message-ID: I call complete BS on Bunnie Huang's notion that both the way the HDL module is written and the lack of area optimization is due to some nefarious intent to sell bigger silicon by Xilinx. I'm really not a fan of that guy so maybe my glasses are tinted anti-rose. But the design of large HDL modules like their DDR controller and PCI Express cores are written to be as flexible as possible to the largest set of applications. People code 'code' and thus it is always subject to design over-sights and mistakes. Actually Lattice has some of the most bloated and abstracted code I've seen from the bigger 4 vendors. The lack of a compile time flag to turn off the sub-bridge was most likely an oversight. Xilinx and Intel/Altera's main customer base are large customers that buy expensive chips. Their canned IP is always going to be designed for those larger applications first. He also makes the assertion Vivado declined to optimize out that sub-module when all it's inputs were at deterministic levels. I find that impossible to believe. IMPOSSIBLE. The tools just don't do that. It's 1000 times more likely there was a path in the code that he missed that was causing a logic inference that cascaded throughout that module. Yet he immediately jumped to the conclusion Xilinx was just after more money - the main reason I think that guy is a class A tool. I'm a fan of the FOSS toolchains for Lattice ice40 and ESP5 parts myself. But not for the reasons you argue. We can arm-wrestle over it later. -A On 2020-05-21 09:23, David Kuder via cctalk wrote: > I've taken to using parts supported by the open source toolchains & IP, > that mostly limits me to using Lattice parts, but the efficiencies > obtained > from not instancing all the extra garbage from a vendor's IP library is > worth it. When you use the vendor tools, they want to waste as many > gates > as they can get away with so you buy larger more expensive parts. The > open > source toolchains optimize out stuff that would just get left dangling. > > https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5018 gives a good overview of > what > this can look like and the NeTV2 is a project that uses the migen/litex > toolchain well. > > On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:34 AM Sytse van Slooten via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu May 21 14:52:52 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 12:52:52 -0700 Subject: Nova BASIC paper tape image In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <847a1046-d162-c6ab-787e-4a20528b9060@jwsss.com> I have uploaded somewhere a star trek for Data General if anyone finds this.? The listing is mostly source, but some binary content. On 5/21/2020 6:48 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have an image of the BASIC interpreter paper tape for the DG Nova? > From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 21 14:56:03 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 14:56:03 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <0F7A6E52-DD62-4ABB-B090-113AD830A6A9@comcast.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <971af32f-3832-7a3b-c002-1968b1366f8e@charter.net> <0F7A6E52-DD62-4ABB-B090-113AD830A6A9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <28da8f7d-1b9f-03e7-aa78-6473f89ad05d@charter.net> On 5/21/2020 11:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On May 21, 2020, at 12:21 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> On 5/21/2020 9:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >> ... >>> If the timing in your machine is reasonably sane and has enough margin, the simulation should be painless and synthesis should produce few issues. If you have bits that are sensitive to wire or circuit delays, that's different. Unfortunately, the 6600 is utterly infested with such issues, to the point that it's hard to see how it ever worked at all -- the timing documented in the manuals and implied by the wiring can't actually work. A 1410 is probably better, especially considering that IBM had some senior designers who had experienced timing pain first-hand and had learned to avoid it. I'm thinking of people like Gerrit Blaauw (not sure if he was on that project, though). >> >> There may be some such sensitivities, but I doubt there are many - the >> 1410 was not a fast machine by any stretch of the imagination. >> Actually, the situation I am most concerned about in that department is >> that the FPGA signals will propagate faster than the original, so a >> signal might change state too quickly as compared to the original. > > This sort of question is why I found starting with the simulator is helpful. In a simulation you can specify delays directly. So for my 6600, I have the gate delay (5 ns) and the wire delays (1.3 ns per foot, in the twisted pair, or 25 ns for coax cables including tx/rx circuit). Actually, I only include wire delays for "long" wires; the design clearly uses wires longer than needed in various places for delay reasons, but my guess is that short wires are not time sensitive. That may be wrong; I need to run it again without that assumption to see if it helps. I do indeed plan on starting with simulation - just not for that reason. Its just easier to debug then the FPGA proper. ;) I suppose I could figure out the actual wire list, and thus wire lengths, but it would be have to be limited only to inter-panel wires, and even that much would be painful and very time consuming. But yeah, it makes sense to model gate delays in a general way and then perhaps lower them to see what happens at higher speeds, as you suggest below. > > Once the design works that way, I can then see what would happen in synthesis, by replacing the original stage and wire delays by much smaller values. Any place where that breaks things needs an explicit register inserted to replace the wire "register". I know there will be a bunch of those, hopefully hundreds and not tens of thousands. I hope not to introduce any delays not present in the original. Instead I do plan to insert D flip flops anywhere there is a combinatorial loop. > > For more sane machines like a 1410 or an EL-X8, the same approach lets you determine whether there is any timing sensitive stuff in the design. If not, then changing the model delays from "original" to "very fast" would break nothing. If so, turning off the delays gives you a synthesizable design, or very nearly one. > > paul > > JRJ From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 21 15:20:46 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 16:20:46 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <28da8f7d-1b9f-03e7-aa78-6473f89ad05d@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <971af32f-3832-7a3b-c002-1968b1366f8e@charter.net> <0F7A6E52-DD62-4ABB-B090-113AD830A6A9@comcast.net> <28da8f7d-1b9f-03e7-aa78-6473f89ad05d@charter.net> Message-ID: <34E83C92-1E1B-4627-8576-9CD1B1D6776F@comcast.net> > On May 21, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > On 5/21/2020 11:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ... >> This sort of question is why I found starting with the simulator is helpful. In a simulation you can specify delays directly. So for my 6600, I have the gate delay (5 ns) and the wire delays (1.3 ns per foot, in the twisted pair, or 25 ns for coax cables including tx/rx circuit). Actually, I only include wire delays for "long" wires; the design clearly uses wires longer than needed in various places for delay reasons, but my guess is that short wires are not time sensitive. That may be wrong; I need to run it again without that assumption to see if it helps. > > I do indeed plan on starting with simulation - just not for that reason. > Its just easier to debug then the FPGA proper. ;) > > I suppose I could figure out the actual wire list, and thus wire > lengths, but it would be have to be limited only to inter-panel wires, > and even that much would be painful and very time consuming. But yeah, > it makes sense to model gate delays in a general way and then perhaps > lower them to see what happens at higher speeds, as you suggest below. As I said, for most machines it is not likely to be useful to model wire lengths. For the 6600, it is mandatory, and obvious from the design files: when you see a 96 inch wire connecting two modules one inch apart, you know there is a reason why that wasn't a 4 inch wire instead. Not to mention when "adjust to get x ns pulse" shows up in an annotation. One good example of this is the master clock oscillator. In most 6600s it's a 10 MHz crystal clock, but in the first 7 units built, it's a 4 stage ring oscillator, with 96 inch wires to produce 25 ns delay between the four main phases. The later version gets rid of the ring oscillator, but retains the four buffers with wire delays, as n * 25 ns phase shifters. If I were working on, say, a PDP-11, I wouldn't expect to have to deal with any of this sort of craziness. But a 6600 is at, if not over, the hairy edge of possible speed for when it was built. Even the peripheral processors are well optimized, so they can run many of their instructions in 1 microsecond -- which is the memory cycle time. Fetching and executing a new opcode every cycle is a pretty hard task. The PPUs are actually pipelined, though the descriptions you'll read about them don't make this clear at all. Come to think of it, another nice optimization example is the process context switch, which in the 6000 series is a single instruction -- 16 read/modify/write core memory cycles 100 ns apart, so the whole thing including pipeline drain and restart takes 3 or so microseconds. Watching that in simulation is fun. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 21 17:37:44 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 17:37:44 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <5d4a327e-8f6e-3933-9bb3-71fc198c582e@jbrain.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> <5d4a327e-8f6e-3933-9bb3-71fc198c582e@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5EC702B8.8080803@pico-systems.com> On 05/21/2020 12:42 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 5/21/2020 12:24 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:07 AM Jon Elson via cctalk >> >> wrote: >> >>> (I also use Coolrunner II and XC9500XL devices in some >>> of my >>> products.) >>> >> I used to use XC9500XL series (mostly XC9572XL) quite a >> bit, but I have >> switched to Lattice LC4000ZE series because they are less >> expensive and >> lower power, and (like the XC9500XL) have 5V tolerant >> inputs. >> >> I'm not thrilled with having to use yet another different >> toolset, but >> c'est la vie. > > Is it possible for you or someone to post about how to get > an environment up and running in Windows and/or Linux? (or > link to one you used?) > Windows should be trivial, just read the release notes on what systems it is compatible with. Linux generally will install on many OS variants, even if not the specific ones Xilinx says are supported. They have an install script that tells you if other packages need to be installed. The only tricky area is to support certain download/debug "cables". I had a HELL of a time getting a Digilent pod to work at work. But, I bought a (probably clone) Xilinx Platform Cable USB and it worked pretty much right away on my home system. I only do smaller FPGAs, such as XC3S50A, but the last versions of ise support much higher-end chips. Xilinx changed the built-in serial PROM on the XC3S50AN, and that requires a patch file to be used instead of the default. Otherwise, it all just works under Linux as expected. Ise ver. 10 cannot be run on a 64-bit system, due to export controls. It should be able to be hacked, but i couldn't get it to work. Later versions seem to install fine on 64-bit OS's. Jon From rp at servium.ch Thu May 21 20:42:03 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:42:03 -0700 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Eric Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > IMNSHO, there's a special place in hell reserved for those who have > designed equipment to (ab)use modular connectors other than for telephone > lines and 10BASEx Ethernet, and I really think a better connector should > have been chosen for 10BASEx. > The whole concept of "if the plug fits, it will at least not blow up" is kind of a late invention. And I'm amazed when this actually holds true in situations where I wouldn't quite expect that to be the case (e.g. all those electrically not quite compatible PCI/PCI-X/PCIe variants that have coded notches to prevent you from frying your computer/card. Except that you can stick a PCI card backwards into a PCIe slot) DEC using MMJ may get a pass because they at least attempted to prevent > connecting the wrong stuff together. > Any ideas why it took so much longer for keyboard interfaces to converge than most other peripherals? Display interfaces, HDDs/floppies/tapes etc., serial ports, and even mice converged on only a few variants more or less the moment they became commonplace. I'd really like some first hand insight into why anyone would want to invent a new interface/protocol from scratch every time they start developing a new machine (I'm mostly talking about the "simple async serial protocol sending up/down events" kind). Luckily there are only 12 different ways to wire a 4P4C, but there exist way more incompatible keyboards using that connector. Is it really easier to develop an incompatible serial keyboard interface from scratch than to re-use one that already exists? [actually, I kinda know, because of course it's easier to do a one-off and not care about documentation, licensing, extensibility, or forwards/backwards compatibility] From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 21 21:44:23 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 21:44:23 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <5EC702B8.8080803@pico-systems.com> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> <5d4a327e-8f6e-3933-9bb3-71fc198c582e@jbrain.com> <5EC702B8.8080803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 5/21/2020 5:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Windows should be trivial, just read the release notes on what systems > it is compatible with. I must have miscommunicated.? I have Xilinx ISE WebPack installed and running.? I was asking about getting the Lattice toolchain up and running, which programming cable to get, and suggestions for a test board for Lattice. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From rshepprd at gmail.com Thu May 21 21:42:55 2020 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 22:42:55 -0400 Subject: 2.11bsd unix resolver Message-ID: <5ec73c2f.1c69fb81.4206a.9aed@mx.google.com> On Solaris it?s the ?hosts? line in the /etc/nsswitch.conf/ file. Perhaps something similar in BSD. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Thu May 21 23:43:52 2020 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 22:43:52 -0600 Subject: Nova BASIC paper tape image In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28138aa1-7e4c-7518-cb0f-28ae0cfd2f98@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Camiel - I will contact you off list - Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/21/2020 7:48 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > Does anyone have an image of the BASIC interpreter paper tape for the DG Nova? > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri May 22 00:42:54 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 22:42:54 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC Message-ID: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Seems of interest.? Will be interesting to play with. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ From justgold79 at gmail.com Fri May 22 01:44:19 2020 From: justgold79 at gmail.com (Justin Goldberg) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 02:44:19 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Interesting. I wonder if this is similar to the qbasic code in the dos 5 (6?) source leak that's floating around. Or if Gates wrote any of it. On Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:43 AM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > Seems of interest. Will be interesting to play with. > > https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 22 01:56:21 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 07:56:21 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Now that is really cool. Good old MS In '83 I was working for DEC and had access to things like BASIC+. I was amazed at what they could do on a micoprocessor. On 22/05/2020 06:42, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > Seems of interest.? Will be interesting to play with. > > https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ > > > From rp at servium.ch Fri May 22 03:34:54 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 01:34:54 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: cool, but... these are "translated" sources (presumably from some generic source that is run through a tool that generates x86 asm). I just wish they had also released the "source of the source" and the translation tool. Because that was the interesting part of it. On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:43 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Seems of interest. Will be interesting to play with. > > https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri May 22 00:57:03 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 22:57:03 -0700 Subject: Nova BASIC paper tape image In-Reply-To: <28138aa1-7e4c-7518-cb0f-28ae0cfd2f98@Wild-Hare.com> References: <28138aa1-7e4c-7518-cb0f-28ae0cfd2f98@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <1c4099f2-9de7-20ea-1bfe-2d2f8c17b87c@jwsss.com> On 5/21/2020 9:43 PM, Bruce Ray via cctech wrote: > G'day Camiel - > > I will contact you off list - > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Boulder, Colorado USA > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > Bruce, If you have a way to run the star trek basic, I'd be interested as well. Thanks Jim > On 5/21/2020 7:48 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: >> Does anyone have an image of the BASIC interpreter paper tape for the >> DG Nova? >> > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri May 22 06:51:16 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 07:51:16 -0400 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <5EC6A732.1090002@pico-systems.com> <5d4a327e-8f6e-3933-9bb3-71fc198c582e@jbrain.com> <5EC702B8.8080803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7f8f3399-8aa6-8057-96c1-0a43900ba1e3@e-bbes.com> On 2020-05-21 22:44, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I must have miscommunicated.? I have Xilinx ISE WebPack installed and > running.? I was asking about getting the Lattice toolchain up and > running, which programming cable to get, Are you talking Lattice/Diamond on Win10 or linux? I don't remember having problems installing it on both ... > and suggestions for a test > board for Lattice. That's a cute board, with really good software support (f32c, and a lot of games) https://radiona.org/ulx3s/ No clue, how to get one in the US at the moment ... What would you like to do with it? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri May 22 07:06:27 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:06:27 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/20 2:56 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Now that is really cool. Good old MS > > In '83 I was working for DEC and had access to things like BASIC+. > > I was amazed at what they could do on a micoprocessor. > In my early days :-) I was given a project to develop programs for an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory and RX02 8" floppies. I got the project because the mainframe programmers I worked with did not believe anything serious could be done in a machine that small. I developed programs that later e\went production using MACRO-11, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL. I doubt the products of modern computer science education could duplicate what I did. Efficiency is no longer a consideration. Just throw more hardware at the problem. bill From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 22 07:26:43 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:26:43 +0200 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 05:26, Rico Pajarola via cctalk wrote: > > > The whole concept of "if the plug fits, it will at least not blow up" is > kind of a late invention. Ha! I have an old external 3.5" IDE disk enclosure. It's a good enclosure, too -- Firewire 800 _and_ USB 2 _and_ eSATA. It has the internal drive from my old iMac G5 in it. The iMac suffered from failing capacitors and I coaxed a little more life from it by making its HD external. I wish to retrieve its contents. It has a very odd power connector. It's a DIN plug with quite a few pins -- 7 or 8 and a plastic locator. Unique PSU. As I have been on mandatory working-from-home for a couple of months, I took my Mac mini setup in the bedroom apart and stashed the bits away, and set up my work laptop with 2 old external screens as a home office. One ancient Eizo screen and a slightly more modern HDMI one. Snag: I failed to pack the modern HDMI screen's PSU brick away with it. This led to a lot of frantic hunting. I found the power brick, and some others. The snag is this. I now have _two_ power bricks for the external drive. Both deliver the requisite *both* 12V and 5V. Both have the right DIN plug and fit. But they're wired differently. One's ground pins are the other's 12V pins. I think this is now resolved but it was an interesting question: one brick will power the drive, while the other, with an identical connector, is more or less guaranteed to release the magic smoke from the external enclosure. ? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From nw.johnson at ieee.org Fri May 22 07:56:15 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:56:15 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I know where you are coming from. Starting out as an FE I was only initially trained in assembler - specifically to trace each instruction through the machine for troubleshooting!? My first database was written in ART418 (Assembler for Real Time/ Univac 418 :-))Later I learned C and used it to do any real programming. When the 'big iron' computer industry was taken over by the peecee, I went into teaching ECE at college.? For 25 years I was always trying to teach my students efficiency in coding - especially important until the latter years in embedded systems. Now even embedded systems are running with gigahertz clock speeds!? Over my career I have seen the change from three assembler courses in a six-semester program to just one 'so they can get their hands wet'! In the end, when asked 'why do we have to learn this?' I ended up just saying "When embedded systems start displaying really weird problems in a worldwide installed base, some knowledge of assembler may be the only way to fix it.? People who can will be the first to be hired and the last to go if a company down-sizes! Even when teaching C I showed them how to get down and understand the assembler in the debugger. I am retired from teaching now now and write in C and SQL :-) One day I will do some PDP-11 assembler just for old time's sake on my PiDP-11! cheers, Nigel On 22/05/2020 08:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/20 2:56 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >> Now that is really cool. Good old MS >> >> In '83 I was working for DEC and had access to things like BASIC+. >> >> I was amazed at what they could do on a micoprocessor. >> > > In my early days :-)? I was given a project to develop programs > for an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory and RX02 8" floppies.? I > got the project because the mainframe programmers I worked with > did not believe anything serious could be done in a machine that > small.? I developed programs that later e\went production using > MACRO-11, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL.? I doubt the products of > modern computer science education could duplicate what I did. > Efficiency is no longer a consideration.? Just throw more hardware > at the problem. > > bill > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri May 22 08:20:04 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 15:20:04 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20200522132004.GA10884@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:42:54PM -0700, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > Seems of interest.? Will be interesting to play with. > > https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ > Around 1992 I tried to use Basic on my Amiga to compute some stuff from the physics lab. As a student, I was to learn few things - laser and mirrors, spectroscope etc, each exercise was to be summed up, measurents given, plots plotted, means, standard deviations and measurement errors and whatever I forgot, too. So I thought, here is this shiny computer of mine, I will make good use of it. The Basic had Microsoft printed on it. The bloody code delivered nonsense. Every time I tried to fix it, nonsense again. I finished writing the report with good old calculator. My contempt (if not hate) of Microsoft started on that day, I think. My huge reservation towards Basic-the-language, probably too. Of course, chance was, I might have been this much inexperienced. Albeit I wrote my first programs six years earlier, but, sure, might have been not my day. Oh, they open sourced. If you ever watched Spaceballs, you will know what I mean: "Oh shit, here goes the planet"... :-) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From brain at jbrain.com Fri May 22 09:41:17 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 09:41:17 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> On 5/22/2020 3:34 AM, Rico Pajarola via cctalk wrote: > cool, but... > > these are "translated" sources (presumably from some generic source that is > run through a tool that generates x86 asm). I just wish they had also > released the "source of the source" and the translation tool. Because that > was the interesting part of it. The page notes they tried: "Each of the assembly source files contains a header stating |Thistranslation created 10-Feb-83byVersion4.3| Since the Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) of the early processors used in home and personal computers weren?t spectacularly different from one another, Microsoft was able to generate a substantial amount of the code for a port from the sources of a master implementation. (Alas, sorry, we?re unable to open-source the ISA translator.)" I'm assuming it's a language thing, but your comments seem overly dismissive.? You're essentially saying that the resulting generated ASM is of no interest (the tool was the interesting part, you note) and devoid of value.? The comments I am sure are verbatim from the meta source, and by investigating the source, I think folks could gain key insights into what the tool did. Yes, we can lament the inability to gain access to the meta-source, but I don't think the resulting source code is uninteresting.? And, if comments like these get back to MS (some folks on this list work there), how will the folks within the company feel about it?? "Yeah, we worked for months with Legal to cut through the red tape and get GW-BASIC source online, but folks were dismissive we didn't give them everything, so I'm not sure it's worth the effort to open anything else up...." How we appreciate what is given probably dictates if we receive anything more. Jim From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri May 22 09:53:44 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:53:44 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <2205142D-17C0-493A-9871-7CA54B9D272C@verizon.net> I really appreciate that MS is doing this. For me, I like seeing the progressing of the code over time...like comparing QDOS to MSDOS 1.0 to 1.1 to 2.0. The release of WinWord 1.1 was interesting but not as much to me as DOS or even the early BASICS for the 6502/Z80 which I think used the same kind of translation tool as they may have used for GWBasic. For me, the next big thing to see would be Windows 1.0. That would be awesome to see. I've never really tried to recompile any of the released code. The Seattle Gazelle has a tool to rebuild MS-DOS 2.0, but it functions more like an OEM Adaptation Kit. I suppose that with enough free memory it should work. I remember reading somewhere that Microsoft used a special SCP machine with 768k of RAM to assemble and link certain programs. Rich ?On 5/22/20, 10:41 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk" wrote: On 5/22/2020 3:34 AM, Rico Pajarola via cctalk wrote: > cool, but... > > these are "translated" sources (presumably from some generic source that is > run through a tool that generates x86 asm). I just wish they had also > released the "source of the source" and the translation tool. Because that > was the interesting part of it. The page notes they tried: "Each of the assembly source files contains a header stating |Thistranslation created 10-Feb-83byVersion4.3| Since the Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) of the early processors used in home and personal computers weren?t spectacularly different from one another, Microsoft was able to generate a substantial amount of the code for a port from the sources of a master implementation. (Alas, sorry, we?re unable to open-source the ISA translator.)" I'm assuming it's a language thing, but your comments seem overly dismissive. You're essentially saying that the resulting generated ASM is of no interest (the tool was the interesting part, you note) and devoid of value. The comments I am sure are verbatim from the meta source, and by investigating the source, I think folks could gain key insights into what the tool did. Yes, we can lament the inability to gain access to the meta-source, but I don't think the resulting source code is uninteresting. And, if comments like these get back to MS (some folks on this list work there), how will the folks within the company feel about it? "Yeah, we worked for months with Legal to cut through the red tape and get GW-BASIC source online, but folks were dismissive we didn't give them everything, so I'm not sure it's worth the effort to open anything else up...." How we appreciate what is given probably dictates if we receive anything more. Jim From cctalk at snarc.net Fri May 22 10:01:50 2020 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 11:01:50 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <6ac42bdb-a603-2c96-0a14-d1a3a405f4b8@snarc.net> > Interesting. I wonder if this is similar to the qbasic code in the dos 5 (6?) source leak that's floating around. Or if Gates wrote any of it. Gates told the Smithsonian that the last product for which he personally coded was the TRS-80 Model 100. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 22 10:34:52 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:34:52 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6c3d5af0-e7ad-efdb-ef0e-d74c3f7ab281@sydex.com> A quick look at the code indicates to me that the Intel translator CONV86 may well have done the translation in "strict" mode. Of course, there were other translators, but some of the stuff rings a bell. For example, the 8080 instruction INX B gets translated to SAHF INC BX LAHF all done because the 8080 16-bit instruction does not affect the zero and carry flags, but the 8086 instruction INC, does. So there's very likely a large amount (my experience was at least >30%) of cruft in the code. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 11:09:51 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:43 AM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> Seems of interest. Will be interesting to play with. >> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ On Fri, 22 May 2020, Justin Goldberg via cctalk wrote: > Interesting. I wonder if this is similar to the qbasic code in the dos 5 > (6?) source leak that's floating around. Or if Gates wrote any of it. The Radio Shack Model 100 is believed to be the LAST BASIC that Bill Gates actively participated in. "Similar"? Well, sorta. A little historical perspective: 1964 May : Kurtz and Kemeny (Dartmouth College) developed BASIC as a very/over simplified system for introducing beginning students to programming. "Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code" As simplified as they could make it with as little overhead as they could, intended to be easier to GET STARTED with then FORTRAN. It is unclear whether they intended that anybody might continue using BASIC once they had completed that beginner's introduction. 1975 January : Popular Electronics ran a cover feature story about the Altair 1975 March : Bill Gates and Paul Allen wrote a BASIC interpreter for the MITS Altair 8800 using Harvard's PDP-10. The use was unauthorized, but student use had not been explicitly forbidden. yet. Allen completed the bootstrap program for it on the plane on their way to Albuquerque, to meet with Ed Roberts (MITS) 1975 April : Gates and Allen formed Micro-Soft 1979 January : Micro-Soft moved from Albuquerque to Bellevue Washington. (Their phone number was (206) 255-8080) 1979 November : Microsoft dropped the hyphen Developed BASIC interpreters (usually in ROM) for TRS-80 ("Level ii BASIC"), Commodore PET ("Commodor BASIC"), Apple ][ ("Applesoft BASIC") and others. 1981 : Contracted with IBM to write BASIC for 5150, and PC-DOS (PC-DOS consisted of purchasing Seattle Computer's 86-DOS/QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System"), and enhancing it. There is extensive lore about WHY IBM contracted with Microsoft, instead of with Digital Research, Inc. for the operating system. THAT is a different discussion. 1981 June 25 : Microsoft Incorporated 1981 August : release of IBM 5150, with BASIC in ROM, and BASIC and BASICA on disk that added additional features (such as DISK) to the ROM BASIC. Becuase the minimal 5150 came with 16K of RAM (soldered, with sockets to expand to 64K), BASIC was squeezed, and BASICA was less squeezed. Microsoft began selling MS-DOS to OEMs. Tim Paterson, Falcon Technologies, SCP, exclusive V non-exclusive license, etc. are another discussion. Differences between PC-DOS and MS-DOS exist, but are mostly few and minor (such as IBMBIO.COM/IBMDOS.COM V IO.SYS/MSDOS.SYS) Each OEM created their own BIOS ROMs, with occasional legal scuffles when IBM thought that they were TOO similar (IBM had PUBLISHED the source code for their BIOS ROM in the "PC Technical Reference Manual", but did not publish the source code of the BASIC ROM.) "Clean-room" reverse engineering, "bug for bug compatability", etc. are other discussions. Because other OEMs did not have legal access to the BASIC ROMs, they could not run BASIC.COM/BASICA.COM , which relied heavily on subroutines in the ROMs. Microsoft created GWBASIC as a substitute. Almost the same as BASICA.COM, but did not require the BASIC ROMs, so that companies such as Compaq could provide BASIC. (NO! Compaq could NOT run the reaal BASICA.COM. They RENAMED GQBASIC.COM into BASICA.COM to avoid confusion for customers having both systems, thus creating lots of confusion for customers who had the renamed GWBASIC file on their disks) Originally, G W BASIC stood for "Gee Wiz BASIC". But Microsoft has forgotten that, and now claims to have no idea what GW stood for. (Similarly the file header flag of "MZ" that differentiated .EXE files from .COM stood for Mark Zbikowski) and THAT is what is being touted here. MUCH later, Quick-BASIC and QBASIC were created. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 11:21:44 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 09:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Ha! > I have an old external 3.5" IDE disk enclosure. It's a good enclosure, > too -- Firewire 800 _and_ USB 2 _and_ eSATA. It has the internal drive > from my old iMac G5 in it. The iMac suffered from failing capacitors > and I coaxed a little more life from it by making its HD external. > I wish to retrieve its contents. > It has a very odd power connector. It's a DIN plug with quite a few > pins -- 7 or 8 and a plastic locator. Unique PSU. > As I have been on mandatory working-from-home for a couple of months, > I took my Mac mini setup in the bedroom apart and stashed the bits > away, and set up > my work laptop with 2 old external screens as a home office. One > ancient Eizo screen and a slightly more modern HDMI one. > > Snag: I failed to pack the modern HDMI screen's PSU brick away with it. > This led to a lot of frantic hunting. I found the power brick, and some others. > > The snag is this. I now have _two_ power bricks for the external > drive. Both deliver the requisite *both* 12V and 5V. Both have the > right DIN plug and fit. > > But they're wired differently. One's ground pins are the other's 12V pins. > > I think this is now resolved but it was an interesting question: one > brick will power the drive, while the other, with an identical > connector, is more or less guaranteed to release the magic smoke from > the external enclosure. Similarly, I have a few 3.25" drives. NO, not 3.5"; not 3.0". 3.25" was the entry in the "shirt pocket disk" wars that Dysan bet the company on. (remember their disks?) Another discussion. OB_Tangent: Georgre Morrow said that the solution would be to cut a deal with clothing manufacturers to make shirt pockets 5.25" or even 8" 3.0" drives (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) use same connectors as "standard" 5.25", with "molex" power connector (I don't know what the CORRECT name is for that connector). But, I have some 3.25" drives that use same connectors as "standard" 3.5" drives, ("4 pin Berg"?) EXCEPT 5V and 12V are swapped in their positions in the coneectors! From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 22 11:29:55 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 17:29:55 +0100 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: > But, I have some 3.25" drives that use same connectors as "standard" 3.5" > drives, ("4 pin Berg"?) EXCEPT 5V and 12V are swapped in their positions > in the coneectors! I have an Archive Sidewinder tape drive on one of my PERQs. The power connector is the same as a 5.25" floppy drive power connector but the 2 voltages are +5V and +24V. At least the +5V pin is where you expect it. I am told some Sun workstations (Sun 2's???) had a power harness to feed both 5.25" drives and a Sidewinder. The only dfference between the connectors was the colours of the wires going to them. Of course plugging an RS232 cable (DB25, none of this DE9 nonsense!) into a PC printer port (or a PC printer cable into an RS232 port) is a good way to let magic smoke out of some TTL chips... It didn't let any magic smoke out, but I once had to sort out a 10base2 ethernet system that was behaving very oddly. Putting a 'scope on the cable showed a signal the likes of which I'd never seen on ethernet before. I cranked the timebase down and recognised it. Composite video (RS170-like). Some 'genius' had plugged an unused ethernet T-piece into the BNC connector on the back of a VT220... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 11:30:26 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 09:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Now even embedded systems are running with gigahertz clock speeds!? Over my > career I have seen the change from three assembler courses in a six-semester > program to just one 'so they can get their hands wet'! > > In the end, when asked 'why do we have to learn this?' I ended up just saying > "When embedded systems start displaying really weird problems in a worldwide > installed base, some knowledge of assembler may be the only way to fix it.? > People who can will be the first to be hired and the last to go if a company > down-sizes! Even when teaching C I showed them how to get down and understand > the assembler in the debugger. > > I am retired from teaching now now and write in C and SQL :-) One day I will > do some PDP-11 assembler just for old time's sake on my PiDP-11! Phillipe Kahn (Borland) included assembler in "Turbo Debugger And Tools", but said that assembler was only for debugging. Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley undergad CS) said, "Nobody uses assembler any more, nor ever will again." They taught programming with SCHEME (a LISP variant) They gave a demo of how wonderful their mindset and recursion are. They gave an example of a problem "that can not be done without recursion"! While they were balancing their parentheses, I doodled a solution in C, BASIC, and was partway through COBOL. Recursion is wonderful for some things; thinking that it is the only solution is demented. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 22 11:35:59 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 18:35:59 +0200 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 18:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Similarly, I have a few 3.25" drives. NO, not 3.5"; not 3.0". 3.25" was > the entry in the "shirt pocket disk" wars that Dysan bet the company on. > (remember their disks?) Another discussion. I remember the Zenith Minisport, a DOS laptop with 2" floppies: http://oldcomputers.net/zenith-minisport.html Don't think I ever saw one in real life, though. Not sure any other computer ever used those media. I own a number of Amstrad devices with 3" disks. But I don't think I ever saw 3?"! > OB_Tangent: Georgre Morrow said that the solution would be to cut a deal > with clothing manufacturers to make shirt pockets 5.25" or even 8" Ha! :-) It is a bit funny that people issued diktats, and designed products, about and around pocket sizes. Now I am doomed to ridiculously-thin phones with poor battery life. This device was roundly mocked: https://www.businessinsider.com/energizer-phone-with-huge-battery-failed-on-indiegogo-2019-4 It's about the same thickness as the original hard-disk-based iPods, which sold in the tens of millions and were regarded as a pinnacle of miniaturisation. I think our list member Mr Corlett was the first to note that, that I saw. > 3.0" drives (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) use same connectors as "standard" > 5.25", with "molex" power connector (I don't know what the CORRECT name is > for that connector). With some adjustments, anyway, I believe... https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DIY:Floppy_Drives > But, I have some 3.25" drives that use same connectors as "standard" 3.5" > drives, ("4 pin Berg"?) EXCEPT 5V and 12V are swapped in their positions > in the coneectors! :-o Nasty! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 12:21:39 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course plugging an RS232 cable (DB25, none of this DE9 nonsense!) > into a PC printer port (or a PC printer cable into an RS232 port) is a > good way to let magic smoke out of some TTL chips... IBM tried to use the [INADEQUATE] protection of opposite gender. Which won't help if there is a sufficient pile of random other cables, OR, college administrators purchasing "gender-changers" for adding a second parallel printer! (on slot 8 of the 5160) (For those not familiar, IIRC, slot 8 of the XT/5160 has differences in buffering; to avoid accidental misuse, IBM provided the XT with a "free" RS232 card to fill up that slot) Later, when they got 286, 386, 486, and Pentium machines, they dug out their gender-changers to see whether the parallel printer would work on any male DB25 connectors on those machines. I wonder if THAT is why IBM switched from DB25 to DE9 for serial port. DE9 was used for 5150 CGA and MDA (not quite compatible) AND for the early Microsoft "Bus mouse" and, with opposite gender for "modern" RS232 ports. DA15 was used for 5150 analog input (joystick) and some people use it as a specialized video connection. And, of course, the 5150 used 5 pin DIN for both keyboard AND cassette. On the back, out of sight. ("MY left, or YOUR left?") TRS80 [model 1] had used THREE 5 pin DINs on the back and side by side for power, video and cassette. "Sentience is the ability to learn from misteaks; wisdom is the ability to learn from somebody else's previous misteaks." Around here, IBM never had a cable available for cassette, but the Radio Shack #26-1207 worked. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri May 22 12:28:12 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 18:28:12 +0100 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 6:21 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 22 May 2020, Tony Duell wrote: > > Of course plugging an RS232 cable (DB25, none of this DE9 nonsense!) > > into a PC printer port (or a PC printer cable into an RS232 port) is a > > good way to let magic smoke out of some TTL chips... > > IBM tried to use the [INADEQUATE] protection of opposite gender. Which > won't help if there is a sufficient pile of random other cables, A lot of manufacturers, including major ones used the wrong gender of connector on their RS232 ports... A socket wired as a DTE is common. The HP150 is a classic... HP did just that (2 serial ports, wired as DTEs, but sockets on the main unit). There was an option board which included a parallel port. It used a DB25 _plug_. But it gets better, The PCB was clearly designed for a DB25 socket, which would have had a pinout compatible with the IBM parallel port. It appears that at the last moment HP changed to a plug (I guess so you couldn't plug the official HP cables into the wrong connectors). The result is that the pins are mirrored compared to IBM, strobe is on pin 13, Data 0 on pin 12, etc... -tony From boris at summitclinic.com Fri May 22 12:31:42 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 09:31:42 -0800 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> Thanks for posting the timeline of various Basic interpreters. I wasn't aware that Gates/Allen also wrote Basic for C64. Did download the 8080 Basic source code out of interest, but in early 1980's had very little to do with IBM PC. As was working with PDP-11's at that time, really disliked 8080 instruction set and got a C64 instead which was considerably cheaper than IBM PC and much easier to write assembly code for. C64 basic is fairly ugly but bought a 6502 assembler and just used Basic to display stuff on screen and call my work was done in assembly language code. Had no trouble sampling switch data at 1 KHz using my "toy" computer. A couple of guys from UBC Physiology decided to build a programmable stimulator based on C64 which they were trying to sell for $2K, considerably less than the ~$10 K that the dedicated device that was commonly used then. Even though their timing specifications matched the expensive device, a lot of researchers back then didn't want a "toy" to be part of their lab setup so sales were few. Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of early Microsoft history and, if depictions of individuals are true to reality, explains why I far preferred Mac in comparison to ugly early windows. It also helped that 68000 was a very easy processor to migrate to after 8 years doing assembler/FORTRAN programming on a PDP-11. Couldn't believe it when I had a full 512 Kb of RAM to play in. >On Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:43 AM jim stephens via cctalk > wrote: >>>Seems of interest. Will be interesting to play with. >>>https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ > > >On Fri, 22 May 2020, Justin Goldberg via cctalk wrote: >>Interesting. I wonder if this is similar to the qbasic code in the dos 5 >>(6?) source leak that's floating around. Or if Gates wrote any of it. > >The Radio Shack Model 100 is believed to be the LAST BASIC that Bill >Gates actively participated in. > >"Similar"? Well, sorta. > > >A little historical perspective: > > >1964 May : Kurtz and Kemeny (Dartmouth College) developed BASIC as a >very/over simplified system for introducing beginning students to >programming. "Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code" As >simplified as they could make it with as little overhead as they >could, intended to be easier to GET STARTED with then FORTRAN. It >is unclear whether they intended that anybody might continue using >BASIC once they had completed that beginner's introduction. > >1975 January : Popular Electronics ran a cover feature story about the Altair > >1975 March : Bill Gates and Paul Allen wrote a BASIC interpreter for >the MITS Altair 8800 using Harvard's PDP-10. The use was >unauthorized, but student use had not been explicitly forbidden. yet. >Allen completed the bootstrap program for it on the plane on their >way to Albuquerque, to meet with Ed Roberts (MITS) > >1975 April : Gates and Allen formed Micro-Soft >1979 January : Micro-Soft moved from Albuquerque to Bellevue Washington. >(Their phone number was (206) 255-8080) >1979 November : Microsoft dropped the hyphen > >Developed BASIC interpreters (usually in ROM) for TRS-80 ("Level ii >BASIC"), Commodore PET ("Commodor BASIC"), Apple ][ ("Applesoft >BASIC") and others. > >1981 : Contracted with IBM to write BASIC for 5150, and PC-DOS >(PC-DOS consisted of purchasing Seattle Computer's 86-DOS/QDOS >("Quick and Dirty Operating System"), and enhancing it. There is >extensive lore about WHY IBM contracted with Microsoft, instead of >with Digital Research, Inc. for the operating system. THAT is a >different discussion. > >1981 June 25 : Microsoft Incorporated > >1981 August : release of IBM 5150, with BASIC in ROM, and BASIC and BASICA >on disk that added additional features (such as DISK) to the ROM BASIC. >Becuase the minimal 5150 came with 16K of RAM (soldered, with >sockets to expand to 64K), BASIC was squeezed, and BASICA was less squeezed. > >Microsoft began selling MS-DOS to OEMs. Tim Paterson, Falcon >Technologies, SCP, exclusive V non-exclusive license, etc. are >another discussion. Differences between PC-DOS and MS-DOS exist, >but are mostly few and minor (such as IBMBIO.COM/IBMDOS.COM V IO.SYS/MSDOS.SYS) > >Each OEM created their own BIOS ROMs, with occasional legal scuffles >when IBM thought that they were TOO similar (IBM had PUBLISHED the >source code for their BIOS ROM in the "PC Technical Reference >Manual", but did not publish the source code of the BASIC >ROM.) "Clean-room" reverse engineering, "bug for bug >compatability", etc. are other discussions. > >Because other OEMs did not have legal access to the BASIC ROMs, they >could not run BASIC.COM/BASICA.COM , which relied heavily on >subroutines in the ROMs. > >Microsoft created GWBASIC as a substitute. Almost the same as >BASICA.COM, but did not require the BASIC ROMs, so that companies >such as Compaq could provide BASIC. (NO! Compaq could NOT run the >reaal BASICA.COM. They RENAMED GQBASIC.COM into BASICA.COM to avoid >confusion for customers having both systems, thus creating lots of >confusion for customers who had the renamed GWBASIC file on their disks) > >Originally, G W BASIC stood for "Gee Wiz BASIC". But Microsoft has >forgotten that, and now claims to have no idea what GW stood for. >(Similarly the file header flag of "MZ" that differentiated .EXE >files from .COM stood for Mark Zbikowski) > > > >and THAT is what is being touted here. > > > >MUCH later, Quick-BASIC and QBASIC were created. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 22 12:50:39 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:50:39 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> On 5/22/20 10:31 AM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of early Microsoft history It is a work of fiction, and should be taken as such. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 22 14:24:46 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:24:46 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/2020 6:06 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/20 2:56 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >> Now that is really cool. Good old MS >> >> In '83 I was working for DEC and had access to things like BASIC+. >> >> I was amazed at what they could do on a micoprocessor. >> > > In my early days :-)? I was given a project to develop programs > for an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory and RX02 8" floppies.? I > got the project because the mainframe programmers I worked with > did not believe anything serious could be done in a machine that > small.? I developed programs that later e\went production using > MACRO-11, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL.? I doubt the products of > modern computer science education could duplicate what I did. > Efficiency is no longer a consideration.? Just throw more hardware > at the problem. > > bill > Thows a PDP 8 to Bill. Batteries and BASIC not included. Ducks. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 22 14:34:00 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:34:00 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/22/2020 11:50 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/20 10:31 AM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > >> Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of >> early Microsoft history > > It is a work of fiction, and should be taken as such. > Confused here. Pirates or Micosoft history? Runs. Ben. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 22 14:38:06 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 20:38:06 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> I remember sittig in the DEC Ealing (London) Office in 1975 watching a programmer work on TOPS 10 That was DEC's mainframe operating system. A foot high of printout all in assembler!!! On 22/05/2020 20:24, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/2020 6:06 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/22/20 2:56 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >>> Now that is really cool. Good old MS >>> >>> In '83 I was working for DEC and had access to things like BASIC+. >>> >>> I was amazed at what they could do on a micoprocessor. >>> >> >> In my early days :-)? I was given a project to develop programs >> for an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory and RX02 8" floppies.? I >> got the project because the mainframe programmers I worked with >> did not believe anything serious could be done in a machine that >> small.? I developed programs that later e\went production using >> MACRO-11, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL.? I doubt the products of >> modern computer science education could duplicate what I did. >> Efficiency is no longer a consideration.? Just throw more hardware >> at the problem. >> >> bill >> > Thows a PDP 8 to Bill. Batteries and BASIC not included. > Ducks. > Ben. > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 22 14:35:53 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 20:35:53 +0100 Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> Message-ID: <9452a3df-fd61-cf1c-af99-71161c63c2b0@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/05/2020 17:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: #> 3.0" drives (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) use same connectors as "standard" > 5.25", with "molex" power connector (I don't know what the CORRECT name > is for that connector). It's part of the AMP (now TE) Mate-N-LOK series. > But, I have some 3.25" drives that use same connectors as "standard" > 3.5" drives, ("4 pin Berg"?)? EXCEPT 5V and 12V are swapped in their > positions in the coneectors! Not Berg, not even the same pitch. They're AMP Economy Interconnect connectors, with a 2.50mm pitch. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 14:50:55 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >>> Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of early >>> Microsoft history > On 5/22/2020 11:50 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> It is a work of fiction, and should be taken as such. On Fri, 22 May 2020, ben via cctalk wrote: > Confused here. Pirates or Micosoft history? > Runs. > Ben. BOTH. Microsoft history is "based on" a true story; and then fictionalized. As we age, unrefreshed dynamic wetware RAM fades and distorts, so we remember only certain parts and only in ways that our brains come up with. Keep in mind the "blind men and the elephant". Each of the groups involved in creating the internet has a TOTALLY different concept of what happened and who the major players were. For example, to what extent was the motivation for the internet for the purpose of uninterrupted IRS tax collection after apocalypse? Pirates is total fantasy that might sorta claim to have been "inspired by", by those who were not there, and with no factual nor historical content. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 22 14:53:59 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:53:59 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/22/2020 1:38 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > I remember sittig in the DEC Ealing (London) Office in 1975 watching a > programmer work on TOPS 10 > > That was DEC's mainframe operating system. > > A foot high of printout all in assembler!!! But remember mainframes after 1960 (compared to the 50's) where a joy to use with assembly. Only afer 1975 came out did you have the extra memory (4K drams) and languages like C with structures did O/S's change.Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 14:56:13 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > Thanks for posting the timeline of various Basic interpreters. I wasn't > aware that Gates/Allen also wrote Basic for C64. Microsoft did a BASIC for the Commodore PET. I wasn't aware that they did the C64. > Did download the 8080 Basic source code out of interest, but in early > 1980's had very little to do with IBM PC. PC was 8088, NOT 8080. BUT, an original 8080 source code can be run through some algorithmic translation to automagically patch it into something that is close enough to 8088. All of my knowledge of the following is third hand, and probably mostly WRONG. If you are lucky, maybe some of the folk here who actually KNOW this stuff will step in and give the right information. Sequence is only approximate. Well, we can start by considering the 4004. 1971. It was not the "FIRST" microprocessor, although the later chips based on it dominated the market. 4 bit data bus. It was designed to be able to make a whole range of Busicom calculators that could be essentially the same hardware, and changing ROM, or moving a jumper from cheapest model to most expensive model would void the warranty. Then came the 8008, with EIGHT bit data bus, and 14 bit address bus (16K of RAM) Then came the 8080, with 8 bit data bus and 16 bit address bus (64K of RAM) That brought about a giant surge in hobbyists trying to build computers, including the MITS Altair, etc. It is important to note that each Intel chip consisted of "minor" modifications to the previous one. That made it easier to modify a design or software from one to the next one. Minor patches tended to be all that was needed. THAT is important. 'course it means that some aspects are really weird due to being patched on top of patched, on top of patched, instead of redesigned. MEANWHILE, other companies started trying to get into the game. Motorola came out with the 6800, which was pretty cool. But, they were taking a long time to get around to the next ones, so a group of engineers left and started MOS Technology, and came out with the 6500. Motorola's lawyers were not amused. So, the engineers redesigned an all new, "non-infringing" one called the 6502. Motorola eventually got around to trying to design "the best 8 bit microprocessor", and came out with the 6809. They had designed from scratch, to try to make it the best, so it had so much different, that previous machines could not be easily modified for it, and had to be redesigned for it, and software needed to be re-written, not just patched. They had difficulty finding any takers, in spite of obvious design superiority, because most manufaturers were already established with other chips. BUT, Radio Shack built a machine called "the Radio Shack Color Computer" around a Motorola application note. Radio shack didn't want it competing with their other products, and didn't see any reason to include capabilities, so they had horrible constraints, such as chiclet keyboard, unexpandable RF video, cartridge slot instead of expansion bus, etc. A lot of the early machines were intel 8080, which had 8 bit data bus and 16 bit address bus, which meant maximum of 64K of RAM, although it was not very hard to cheat for 128K. Gary Kildall needed an OS for managing his source code on 8 inch disks that he added to his computer. He wrote "Control Program and Monitor", which later became "Control Program for Microcomputers" ("CP/M"). He tried to get Intel to market it, but they didn't think that there would ever be enough market to sell an operating system for a microcomputer. So, he started "Intergalactic Digital Research" Later, when the hobbyists grew up and lost their sense of humor, "Thinker Toys" became "Morrow designs". (they had been having some trademark issues) "Kentucky Fried Computer" became "Northstar" (they had been having some trademark issues) and "Intergalactic Digital Research" bcame "Digital Research Incorporated" Then Zilog came out with the Z80, which had major enhancements. BUT, code using those enhancements would not run on an 8080, so CP/M remained 8080, and many/most? programmers stuck with 8080 for marketable code. Intel came out with the 8085, which had DIFFERENT [incompatible] enhancements, so many/most? continued to stick with 8080 code. I think that the Radio Shack model 100 is 8085. A hobbyist named Steve Wozniak wanted to build a Z80 computer. But it was going to cost too much. At Wescon (trade show), he got a fantastic deal on some 6502 chips. Not what he had been wanting, but he could make it work, and he could afford them! He hooked up with Steve Jobs, who had some marketing ideas. They sold a bunch of "blue boxes", kited some checks, sold Jobs' VW bus and Woz's calculator, and put together a batch of kits. ($666.66; they later said that they had not realized the theological implications of the price) And, hence, we got "Apple Computer". Later, Apple Music (Beatles) talked to them about the name. Apple Music agreed to not get into computers, and Apple Computers agreed to not get into music. Hmmm. Atari and Commodore both ended up also using the 6502. Motorola Then Intel decided to build a "16 bit processor". The 8086 has a 16 bit data bus and a 20 bit address bus, for a maximum of 1M or RAM When the IBM PC wasbeing planned, there was a lot of difference in cost between 8 bit and 16 bit support chips. The 8088 was ALMOST the same as an 8086, but with an 8 bit data bus, which significantly reduced costs! From an engineering perspective, the 8088 is an 8 bit version of the 16 bit 8086. >From a MARKETING perspective, it's 16 bit, or maybe 32 bit, or maybe 64 bit, etc. If a 4 bit machine has a 128 bit Smell-o-vision port, marketing will call the machine "128 bit" The IBM PC was an 8088. IBM went to Microsoft to get BASIC for it. Bill gates put on a suit and met with them. The "Pirates Of The Valley" story of Microsoft cold-calling IBM to sell an operating system PINS THE NEEDLE ON THE BOGUSIMETER. The author of that fiction needs a hot soldering iron shoved 8 inches up his nose. Microsoft was happy to oblige on BASIC. One of the IBM engineers had an Apple2 with a Microsoft "Softcard" (Z80) to run CP/M. So, IBM asked Microsoft to also supply "the CP/M". Bill Gates explained that that was Digital Research. So, IBM went to Digital Research in Pacific grove to get "the CP/M". There was some "culture clash". IBM showed up in blue suits. There is an unconfirmed report that somebody at DR thought that it was a drug raid. I have looked out that upstairs window, and can imagine it. The IBM suits encountered barefoot workers in shorts and not all wearing shirts (both sexes?) female workers without bras. cats and a dog. plants. Surfboards and bicycles in every room. Gary Kildall wasn't even THERE! He had gone to fly his plane up to Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. Official story is that that was an essential errand to deliver some documentation (and no lower employee could have put some shoes on and driven up?). His wife was there, and he had told her, "They're just coming to sign a license agreement. Let them wait in the living room with the rest of the customers." IBM was not amused. IBM went back to Microsoft. I heard that Bill Gates told his people that anybody without a suit should stay home for the day. IBM said that they wante Microsoft to provide the OS. Bill Gates said, "we do BASIC. We don't do operating systems." IBM said that they intended to get the BASIC and the OS from ONE source. Bill Gates said, "Let me tell you about our new OS department!" Then Bill Gates went down the street to Seattle Computer Products and bought 86-DOS/QDOS ("Quick and Dirty OS"), including hardware to run it on, and the contract of Tim Paterson who wrote it. Microsoft had a new OS department. Motorola STARTED work on "The best 16 bit processor". Rather than patching something earlier, and being stuck with legacy oddities, they designed from scratch. So, it took longer. Motorola eventually came out with the 68000, which was the best 16 bit processor. (or 32 bit or 64 bit if you are in marketing) The Apple3 was a major financial setback. Much more money, for very little more. Apple started on a total redesign. It is rumored that for the Lisa, they explicitly avoided anybody with prior experience to avoid repeating previous bad ideas. 'course hiring brilliant folk straight out of college meant that nobody had the prior experience to know the consequences of building a machine for which software could NOT just be patched from previous versions. The Lisa was magnificant! and in a price range (>$20K?) where sales were to overpaid exectuvies wanting to impress other overpaid executives. It actually came close to putting Apple on the rocks. And, it was an ALL-NEW (and improved) machine. Old software couldn't just be patched, it had to be re-written. The brilliant recovery plan was to take the Lisa design and cut every corner that could be cut, to make a machine that could be sold for $500. Once they did, they found that they could still get away with selling it for $2K. it was mandated that the resulting machine would come with four significant pieces of software. By the time it was ready, those had become Mac-Write, Mac-Paint, Mac-Write, and Mac-Paint. But that was enough. The marketing people were smart enough to change the grumbling about building a computer for ignorant masses into "a computer for the rest of US" Later, Commodore (Amiga) and Atari (ST) used the 68000. There are some amazing stories (that i don't know) about that "technology swap" Intel came out with the 80286, 16 bit data bus with 24 bit address bus. with fewer limitations. But still a few significant ones, such as how to switch in and out of "protected mode". "It's like having to turn your engine off to switch gears on the freeway". Bill Gates called the 80286, "Brain dead." In "real mode", which would be limited to 20 bits of address, it is easy to cheat and enable A20, which permits 64K past the 1M boundary. THAT is required for Windoze 3.10 Then came the 80386, which could sorta be called a 32 bit processor. And the 80386-SX, which analogous to the 8088, was a 16 bit version of the 32 bit 30386, permitting building a software compatible machine using cheap 80286 support chips. 80486, which is kinda like a 80386 plus 80387 math chip, and the 80486SX, with is 80486 without the math processor. and Pentium. Intel had been finding out the hard way that it was difficult to maintain trademark of a number (Oldsmobile "442" notwithstanding) Other manufacturers would make a 80386 like chip and call it a 486, or an 80486 like chip and call it a 586, etc. So, they had a naming session. And the other entries were even worse than "Pentium". I'm surprised that that didn't backfire horribly! Consider: In about 1965, Honeywell bought Pentax from Asahi. Honeywell could totally legitimately have come out with a processor (joint venture with AMD/Cyrix/etc.?) and called it the "Pentaxium". Intel wouldn't even be able to object. Yeah, there have been more since then, but new stuff isn't interesting for another ten or twenty years. OR MORE for some of the boring current stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > As was working with PDP-11's at that time, really disliked 8080 instruction > set and got a C64 instead which was considerably cheaper than IBM PC and much > easier to write assembly code for. C64 basic is fairly ugly but bought a > 6502 assembler and just used Basic to display stuff on screen and call my > work was done in assembly language code. Had no trouble sampling switch data > at 1 KHz using my "toy" computer. A couple of guys from UBC Physiology > decided to build a programmable stimulator based on C64 which they were > trying to sell for $2K, considerably less than the ~$10 K that the dedicated > device that was commonly used then. Even though their timing specifications > matched the expensive device, a lot of researchers back then didn't want a > "toy" to be part of their lab setup so sales were few. > > Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of early > Microsoft history and, if depictions of individuals are true to reality, > explains why I far preferred Mac in comparison to ugly early windows. It > also helped that 68000 was a very easy processor to migrate to after 8 years > doing assembler/FORTRAN programming on a PDP-11. Couldn't believe it when I > had a full 512 Kb of RAM to play in. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 22 15:03:10 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals In-Reply-To: <9452a3df-fd61-cf1c-af99-71161c63c2b0@dunnington.plus.com> References: <007301d62f85$c1b72750$452575f0$@com> <9452a3df-fd61-cf1c-af99-71161c63c2b0@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >> 3.0" drives (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) use same connectors as "standard" >> 5.25", with "molex" power connector (I don't know what the CORRECT name is >> for that connector). > On Fri, 22 May 2020, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > > It's part of the AMP (now TE) Mate-N-LOK series. > >> But, I have some 3.25" drives that use same connectors as "standard" 3.5" >> drives, ("4 pin Berg"?)? EXCEPT 5V and 12V are swapped in their positions >> in the coneectors! > > Not Berg, not even the same pitch. They're AMP Economy Interconnect > connectors, with a 2.50mm pitch. > > THANK YOU. Seriously. The pedantic nature of this list makes it a real treasure. Simple GOOGLE and Wikipedia are buried in too many "definitive" wrong answers. Such as calling 36 pin Blue ribbon "Centronics", "DB9", or the historic/antique uses of the yellow and black pair in phone wiring (NO, it was NOT "always" for second line) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 22 15:09:04 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 22 May 2020, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: >> Thanks for posting the timeline of various Basic interpreters. I wasn't >> aware that Gates/Allen also wrote Basic for C64. > > Microsoft did a BASIC for the Commodore PET. I wasn't aware that they did > the C64. > Yep. Jack Tramiel not only used Microsoft BASIC in just about every 8 bit machine Commodore made, but he struck a non-royalty deal with Microsoft. :) Here's the source code for Microsoft BASIC for the 6502: https://www.pagetable.com/?p=774 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri May 22 16:07:52 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:07:52 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/2020 12:38 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > I remember sittig in the DEC Ealing (London) Office in 1975 watching a > programmer work on TOPS 10 > > That was DEC's mainframe operating system. > > A foot high of printout all in assembler!!! HASP on the hoof, or MVT when I was around the 360/50 was about 3 or 4 inches for the fun parts of MVT, and about half a case for HASP, depending on whether it was an IEBGENR copy or a generation.? I only had hands on the generated listing when the site needed to work on the system, as it took to much space to be online. Thanks From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri May 22 16:45:16 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:45:16 -0700 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> Message-ID: On May 21, 2020, at 8:46 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > Helpful tips - I agree with avoiding vendor extensions. Thanks. I?d strongly suggest that the situation with FPGAs & HDLs requires a bit more nuance than that. You *should* probably avoid or carefully isolate vendor *language extensions*. However, you *should not* avoid vendor *IP blocks*. As an example, let?s say you have a design that needs a RAM controller. Do you: (1) Write your own DDR controller as part of your design; or, (2) Interface your design to your FPGA vendor?s DDR controller IP block? In general you *should* do the latter?as long as you can do so via a sane abstraction?rather than the former, unless you have an extremely compelling case for doing the former. And ?portability? isn?t actually that compelling of a case: Virtually every set of tools and chips you might want to work with will have a similar variety of IP blocks available, many implemented via dedicated on-device logic (rather than consuming general-purpose logic cells), so as long as you can isolate their use you can still keep your overall design portable. This is particularly important for things that have strict timing requirements and that might otherwise soak up a lot of your device?s bandwidth, e.g. HDMI input/output, RAM control, Ethernet, and so on. -- Chris From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri May 22 16:58:34 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:58:34 +0200 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: <738c1aeb-8679-dc12-eead-c3d32714e997@julf.com> References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com> <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> <738c1aeb-8679-dc12-eead-c3d32714e997@julf.com> Message-ID: <536272cfd7d44ee4616a39ce0bd502674750c495.camel@agj.net> tis 2020-05-05 klockan 15:39 +0200 skrev Johan Helsingius via cctalk: > I have a bunch of the pizza box SPARC ones that need to find a proper > home, but they are somewhat special as they were the ones from one of > the first pan-European Internet service providers (EUnet). > > Julf > Are they in the Netherlands ? btw ?r du finlandssvensk ? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri May 22 17:56:29 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 18:56:29 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/20 3:24 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/2020 6:06 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/22/20 2:56 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >>> Now that is really cool. Good old MS >>> >>> In '83 I was working for DEC and had access to things like BASIC+. >>> >>> I was amazed at what they could do on a micoprocessor. >>> >> >> In my early days :-)? I was given a project to develop programs >> for an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory and RX02 8" floppies.? I >> got the project because the mainframe programmers I worked with >> did not believe anything serious could be done in a machine that >> small.? I developed programs that later e\went production using >> MACRO-11, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL.? I doubt the products of >> modern computer science education could duplicate what I did. >> Efficiency is no longer a consideration.? Just throw more hardware >> at the problem. >> >> bill >> > Thows a PDP 8 to Bill. Batteries and BASIC not included. > Ducks. I would gladly catch it and put it to good use. I still have PDP-11's, VAX, TRS-80's and Apple ]['s in my house. I have had an Apollo, a Prime, a couple 3B2's, several 3B1's and other systems I can barely remember. All were and still remain more interesting and more fun that today's PC's. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri May 22 17:57:26 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 18:57:26 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/22/20 3:34 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/2020 11:50 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/22/20 10:31 AM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of >>> early Microsoft history >> >> It is a work of fiction, and should be taken as such. >> > Confused here. Pirates or Micosoft history? > Runs. I would vote for Microsoft's History. bill From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri May 22 20:52:10 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 21:52:10 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> You know, reading about this made me dig out the info I had on the Character Oriented Windows ("COW") library. I was reading some of the docs and it occurred to me that it operated much like Windows (probably Windows 1), but what I couldn't find were any "sample" programs or tools to build a program based on the COW library. Does anyone have/know of a sample program that used the library? Was there an SDK for it or was it used only for Microsoft's products? Just looking for something new/interesting to learn about. Thanks! Rich ?On 5/22/20, 11:35 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk" wrote: A quick look at the code indicates to me that the Intel translator CONV86 may well have done the translation in "strict" mode. Of course, there were other translators, but some of the stuff rings a bell. For example, the 8080 instruction INX B gets translated to SAHF INC BX LAHF all done because the 8080 16-bit instruction does not affect the zero and carry flags, but the 8086 instruction INC, does. So there's very likely a large amount (my experience was at least >30%) of cruft in the code. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Fri May 22 22:15:31 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 13:15:31 +1000 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> Message-ID: <35de48e40e2e6868a5be143194bea2d5.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Richard said > You know, reading about this made me dig out the info I had on the Character Oriented Windows ("COW") library. I was reading some of the docs and it occurred to me that it operated much like Windows (probably Windows 1), but what I couldn't find were any "sample" programs or tools to build a program based on the COW library. Does anyone have/know of a sample program that used the library? Was there an SDK for it or was it used only for Microsoft's products? Reading this just reminded me of Visual Basic for MSDOS, which had a windowing system for the 80x25 IBM monochrome adapter. I purchased it in 1992 but didn't use it very much, but I just dug it out of the back of a cupboard for a look. One of the manuals says "Visual Basic provides a complete development environment for MS-DOS applications. You can design the windows, dialog boxes, menus, command buttons, option buttons and other interface elements for a application." Visual Basic for MSDOS was compatible with QBasic and QuickBasic and even had a forms designer. The diagrams of the character UI screens in it are very similar visually to Windows 2, they sure made heavy use of the box drawing characters. Steve. From rp at servium.ch Sat May 23 04:33:58 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 02:33:58 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 7:41 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I'm assuming it's a language thing, but your comments seem overly > dismissive. You're essentially saying that the resulting generated ASM > is of no interest (the tool was the interesting part, you note) and > devoid of value. That didn't come across right. It was not my intention to make it sound like the ASM files have no value. I think it's great that they are doing this, and I'm sure somebody at MS spent a lot of (personal and probably unfunded) effort into making it happen. When I saw the announcement, I was hoping to see the machinery that made this code so portable, and I was disappointed that it's not the entire thing. From julf at julf.com Sat May 23 01:57:43 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 08:57:43 +0200 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: <536272cfd7d44ee4616a39ce0bd502674750c495.camel@agj.net> References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com> <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> <738c1aeb-8679-dc12-eead-c3d32714e997@julf.com> <536272cfd7d44ee4616a39ce0bd502674750c495.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 22-05-2020 23:58, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > Are they in the Netherlands ? Yes. Amsterdam. > btw ?r du finlandssvensk ? Jo, det ?r jag. :) Julf From db at db.net Sat May 23 06:30:50 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 07:30:50 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20200523113050.GA40377@night.db.net> I've kept quiet on this thread but now I'm getting curious since I was the one tasked in porting our vendor copy of GWBASIC to the Dynalogic Hyperion. The original work had been done by a contractor and his graphics weren't particularly fast. As I remember it, it was provided with hooks for the various routines but no source. I also remember having to relocate the program to high memory since a lot of BASIC programmers were fond of poking into low RAM since of course BASIC is in ROM right? Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From emu at e-bbes.com Sat May 23 06:32:19 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 07:32:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for old Suns In-Reply-To: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> References: <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7.ref@yahoo.com> <0939DF2B-69BA-4CC8-8734-D3C0475B9FC7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3e5aa3f4-60ca-c845-a0d2-5e6cf012cab4@e-bbes.com> On 2020-05-03 11:22, silvercreekvalley via cctalk wrote: Hi all, also like to raise my hand, in case anybody on the US east coast is looking for a good home for a SUN2/SUN3 ... Cheers From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat May 23 07:32:44 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:32:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <35de48e40e2e6868a5be143194bea2d5.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> <35de48e40e2e6868a5be143194bea2d5.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <465F0206ABBB52C2.8A7EC704-0DB7-4196-B54C-6F5FD8B76ED9@mail.outlook.com> I remember using Visual Basic for Windows, but not the DOS version. I?d have to look at the version though. I remember buying it at Egghead Software across from my office in NYC. Get Outlook for iOS On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 11:15 PM -0400, "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" wrote: Richard said > You know, reading about this made me dig out the info I had on the Character Oriented Windows ("COW") library. I was reading some of the docs and it occurred to me that it operated much like Windows (probably Windows 1), but what I couldn't find were any "sample" programs or tools to build a program based on the COW library. Does anyone have/know of a sample program that used the library? Was there an SDK for it or was it used only for Microsoft's products? Reading this just reminded me of Visual Basic for MSDOS, which had a windowing system for the 80x25 IBM monochrome adapter. I purchased it in 1992 but didn't use it very much, but I just dug it out of the back of a cupboard for a look. One of the manuals says "Visual Basic provides a complete development environment for MS-DOS applications. You can design the windows, dialog boxes, menus, command buttons, option buttons and other interface elements for a application." Visual Basic for MSDOS was compatible with QBasic and QuickBasic and even had a forms designer. The diagrams of the character UI screens in it are very similar visually to Windows 2, they sure made heavy use of the box drawing characters. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 23 07:41:34 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 08:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC Message-ID: <20200523124134.9B7E918C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > we can start by considering the 4004. 1971. ... Then came the 8008, > with EIGHT bit data bus, and 14 bit address bus (16K of RAM) ... It is > important to note that each Intel chip consisted of "minor" modifications to > the previous one. I know you didn't _say_ the 8008 was based on the 4004, but your text can give that impression. "The [8008] was commissioned by Computer Terminal Corporation (CTC) to implement an instruction set of their design for their Datapoint 2200 programmable terminal. As the chip was delayed and did not meet CTC's performance goals, the 2200 ended up using CTC's own TTL-based CPU instead." The 8008 was started before the 4004, but wound up coming out after it. (See Lamont Wood, "Datapoint", pg. 73.) This is confirmed by its original name, 1201 - the 4004 was going to be named the 1202, until Faggin convinced Intel to name it the 4004. Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 23 08:45:45 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 14:45:45 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate Message-ID: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> As it looks like I am not going to be able to repair the monitor board for my VAXmate I am wondering if I can do anything with the outputs from the I/O board to drive an external monitor instead. The connector to the monitor board has RGB+Intensity outputs at TTL levels. The horizontal sync has a frequency of 26.6KHz, active low with the high voltage 3.7V, Vertical sync is 60Hz. I don't believe that corresponds to any known standard, does it? I had a go at building this http://www.dasarodesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pet-composite-video- adapter.jpg feeding its output to a composite to VGA device to see if it would convert it to VGA, but no luck. Any ideas? Thanks Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 23 09:07:52 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 07:07:52 -0700 Subject: Early Nubus history Message-ID: Did anyone ever do any research into the early history of Nubus, wrt Western Digital, TI or Steve Ward/MIT/Numachine? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 23 09:11:16 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 07:11:16 -0700 Subject: Early Nubus history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02dac1b7-903d-d59f-f769-457d87c424d9@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/20 7:07 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Did anyone ever do any research into the early history of Nubus, wrt Western Digital, TI or Steve Ward/MIT/Numachine? > I was just thinking that it is interesting that WD is credited for inventing Qbus through the WD16 chipset and Nubus because of the Numachine, but I can't really find any documentation for the WD/Nubus connection. From cube1 at charter.net Sat May 23 09:54:33 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 09:54:33 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> Message-ID: <5fabc0e9-663e-bbda-c710-73f188b04f71@charter.net> On 5/22/2020 4:45 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On May 21, 2020, at 8:46 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> >> Helpful tips - I agree with avoiding vendor extensions. Thanks. > > I?d strongly suggest that the situation with FPGAs & HDLs requires a bit more nuance than that. You *should* probably avoid or carefully isolate vendor *language extensions*. However, you *should not* avoid vendor *IP blocks*. > > As an example, let?s say you have a design that needs a RAM controller. Do you: > > (1) Write your own DDR controller as part of your design; or, > > (2) Interface your design to your FPGA vendor?s DDR controller IP block? > > In general you *should* do the latter?as long as you can do so via a sane abstraction?rather than the former, unless you have an extremely compelling case for doing the former. > > And ?portability? isn?t actually that compelling of a case: Virtually every set of tools and chips you might want to work with will have a similar variety of IP blocks available, many implemented via dedicated on-device logic (rather than consuming general-purpose logic cells), so as long as you can isolate their use you can still keep your overall design portable. > > This is particularly important for things that have strict timing requirements and that might otherwise soak up a lot of your device?s bandwidth, e.g. HDMI input/output, RAM control, Ethernet, and so on. I don't think a 100K character IBM SMS machine needs DDR. 8D For my old student ECE ZAP machine, I just used very simple on-development-board RAM, with a layer in between. Probably do the same here. Ethernet might be nice, but I don't think I'd include a whole IP just to get that - probably just use I2C or SPI to an external micro controller (for lamps, switches, the console selectric, etc.) Doing this would also help me fit to a smaller FPGA. Context matters. ;) > > -- Chris > JRJ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat May 23 11:16:52 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:16:52 -0400 Subject: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: Message-ID: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> With the 11/83 running pretty well I decided it was time to derack it and try putting in a TK50 tape drive. I have two and a TQK70 controller (which should work with a TK50) so I popped it in and started to test. On the first unit the tape was already loaded and "stuck". Cleaned the head by lifting it up, cleaning with isopropyl alcohol on clean no-lint swabs and it unloaded properly. Now loads and unloads with no issues on two tapes. Second unit was a bit more interesting, even with a clean head it would not unload. It would spin the tape, get to the point where the leader was on the way through the head system then it would blink endlessly. Took it out and moved the tape with a screwdriver through the hole and found the problem: The leader tongue had bent backwards a bit and as a result it was getting caught in the head slot when rewinding. The TK50 controller must be smart enough to detect the increased torque and stopped before ripping the tongue through. I took it off, bent it back to straight, put it in and now the tape loads and unloads properly. I wonder if later model LTO tape units have the same tongue and leader and can be swapped into a TK50. Another question: Under RT11 what device is a TK50? Is it MQ or something else? And is there a utility to allow a TK50 to be written from a SIMh image to real tape like PDP11GUI? Thanks! Chris From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 23 11:29:25 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 09:29:25 -0700 Subject: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: In-Reply-To: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <8d8f2adb-1630-f2fb-fa2c-d16ced92033d@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/20 9:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > try putting in a TK50 tape drive. no point, you're going to pull it out every time you try to read a tape to clean the head and tape path From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 23 12:18:29 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 19:18:29 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 19:50, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of early Microsoft history > > It is a work of fiction, and should be taken as such. You're right, but it contains the broad strokes of the story, more or less accurately, AFAICT. This is a damned sight more than most pro/am techies know these days. I used to be an active user of Quora, the online crowd-sourced version of XKCD 386, until they banned me for having a false name. ("Liam Proven" -- FAKE!) Many questions are FAQs, asked over and over and _over_ again, _ad nauseam_, by people who can't spell, or who were too lazy to search. Common ones are: ? How much of MS-DOS did Bill Gates write? (I'd answer: none) ? How much of Windows did Bill Gates write? (none) ? Why did MS save Apple? (It didn't, they were punitive damages for stealing Quicktime code) And so on. People have _no_ clue, this is all pre-web and therefore ancient unknown history, the stuff of legend. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 23 12:20:47 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 19:20:47 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:34, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > Confused here. Pirates or Micosoft history? > Runs. Yes. He meant that PoSV is a fictionalised, sanitised, MS-approved account and not very reliable. As is MS' own history. Written by the winners, etc. However, I'd say PoSV will give the clueless more of a general idea than most people have. It's 40y ago now; that means it is most people in tech were born. Only senior managers remember that far back, and they don't know the difference between "Windows" and "Gates" (ha ha). -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 23 13:13:41 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 11:13:41 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45cf88a8-8939-c521-e995-4cffd20d808a@bitsavers.org> > You're right, but it contains the broad strokes of the story So did the TV series "Silicon Valley" and the book "Microserfs" From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat May 23 13:28:43 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 14:28:43 -0400 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> > On May 23, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > As it looks like I am not going to be able to repair the monitor board for > my VAXmate I am wondering if I can do anything with the outputs from the I/O > board to drive an external monitor instead. > > > > The connector to the monitor board has RGB+Intensity outputs at TTL levels. > The horizontal sync has a frequency of 26.6KHz, active low with the high > voltage 3.7V, Vertical sync is 60Hz. I don't believe that corresponds to any > known standard, does it? I assume it's the same as the Pro video. That might not exactly match standards. But the intensity output is an acceptable 480i monochrome video signal. I've fed mine into a video capture device and into a TV display, both work. > I had a go at building this > http://www.dasarodesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pet-composite-video- > adapter.jpg feeding its output to a composite to VGA device to see if it > would convert it to VGA, but no luck. VGA has double the horizontal frequency, so that's going to be problematic. What should work is to convert the RGB signal to "component video" and feed that into a TV monitor that has such an input with 480i support. There are some simple circuits for doing this in design notes from various chip companies. One that uses a triple video amp is nice except that the device only comes in a microscopic size SMT package. Older devices should work too, though. One complication is sync. The Pro has sync on the monochrome signal as well as on the green one, but if you convert the RGB to component video, sync needs to be on the "Y" output and G is only a portion of that, so it probably won't be good enough. The intensity signal could be used as Y, except that in the case of the Pro it isn't done right -- it should be a weighted sum of R/G/B with most of the weight on G, but instead DEC simply made it R+G+B (equal weights). I'd like to build a circuit to do this, with a sync separator, some video amps to do RGB->Y/Pb/Pr and reinsert the sync. Maybe in a few months. paul From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 23 13:55:40 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:55:40 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 21:56, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Microsoft did a BASIC for the Commodore PET. I wasn't aware that they did > the C64. It is pretty much the *same* BASIC in the PET, VIC-20 and C64. It got trivial adjustments for the hardware, but bear in mind: the PET had no graphics, no colour, and only a beep; the VIC-20 had (poor) graphics and sound, and the C64 had quite decent graphics and sound. So the BASIC was poor for the VIC-20 and positively lousy on the C64. There were no commands to set colours, draw or load or save graphics, play music, assemble sound effects, nothing. I.e. in effect the same BASIC interpreter got worse and worse with each successive generation of machines, ending up positively terrible on the C64. You had to use PEEKs and POKEs to use any of the machine's facilities. AIUI, CBM didn't want to pay MS for a newer, improved BASIC interpreter. It thought, with some justice, that the main uses of the VIC-20 and C-64 were games machines, using 3rd party games written in assembly language for speed, and so the BASIC was a reasonable saving: a corner it could afford to cut. The C64 also had a very expensive floppy disk drive (with its own onboard 6502 derivative, ROM & RAM) but a _serial_ interface to the computer, so it was both dog-slow and very pricey. This opened up opportunities for competition, at least outside the US home market. It led to machines like (to pick 2 extremes): ? the Sinclair ZX Spectrum, which was cheaper & had a crappy keyboard, no joystick ports, etc., but whose BASIC included graphics and sound commands. ? the Acorn BBC Micro, which was expensive (like the C64 at launch), but included a superb basic (named procedures with local variables, allowing recursion; if/then/else, while...wend, repeat/until etc., and inline assembly code), multiple interfaces (printer, floppy drive, analogue joysticks, 1nd CPU, programmable parallel expansion bus, etc.) All because CBM cheaped out and used a late-1970s MS BASIC in an early-1980s machine with for the time quite high-end graphics and sound. The C64 sold some *17 million units*, so a lot of '80s kids knew nothing else and thought the crappy BASIC was normal. Although it was one of the worst BASICs of its day, it's even been reimplemented as FOSS now. https://github.com/mist64/cbmbasic It is also largely responsible, all on its own, for a lot of the bad reputation that BASIC has to this day, which in turn was in part responsible for the industry's move away from minis programmed in BASIC (DEC, Alpha Micro, etc.) and towards *nix programmed in C, and *nix rivals such as OS/2 and Windows, also programmed in C. Which is what has now landed us with an industry centred around huge, unmaintainable, insecure OSes composed of tens of millions of lines of unsafe C (& C derivatives), daily and weekly mandatory updates in the order of hundreds of megabytes, and a thriving industry centred around keeping obsolete versions of these vast monolithic OSes (which nobody fully understands any more) maintained and patched for 5, 10, even 15 or so years after release. Which is the business I work in. Yay. It sounds ridiculous but I seriously propose that much of this is because *the* #1 home computer vendor in the Western world kept using a cheap and nasty BASIC for nearly a decade after its sell-by date. CBM had no real idea what it was doing. It sold lots of PETs, then lots more VIC-20s, then literally millions of C64s, without ever improving the onboard software to match the hardware. So what did it do next? A very expensive portable version, for all the businesspeople who needed a luggable home gaming computer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_SX-64 Then it tried to sell incompatible successor machines, which failed -- the Commodore 16 and Plus 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_Plus/4 Better BASIC, bundled ROM business apps -- why?! -- but *not* superior replacements for its best-selling line. Both flopped horribly. CBM apparently still had no real clue _why_ the C64 was a massive hit, or who was buying it, or why. Later it offered the C128, which had multiple operating modes, including a much better BASIC and an 80-column display, but also an entire incompatible 2nd processor -- a Z80 so it could run CP/M. This being the successor model to the early-'80s home computer used by millions of children to play video games. They really did not want, need or care about _CP/M_ of all things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_128 This sold a decent 5 million units, showing how desperate C64 owners were for a compatible successor. (Commodore people often call this the last new 8-bit home computer -- e.g. its lead designer Bil Herd, here: https://hackaday.com/2013/12/09/guest-post-the-real-story-of-hacking-together-the-commodore-c128/ -- which of course it wasn't. The Apple ][GS was in some ways more radical -- its 16-bit enhanced 6502, the 64C816, was more use than the C128's 2 incompatible 8-bit chips, for a start -- and came out the following year. Arguably a 16-bit machine, though. But then there was the UK SAM Coup?, a much-enhanced ZX Spectrum clone with a Z80, released 4 years later in 1989. Amstrad's PcW 16, again a Z80 machine with an SSD and a GUI OS, came out in 1995. There was _nearly_ another, incompatible of course, successor model later still, the C65: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_65 *That* would have been a worthy successor, but by then, CBM had bought the Amiga and wasn't interested any more. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 23 14:33:48 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 21:33:48 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 03:52, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > You know, reading about this made me dig out the info I had on the Character Oriented Windows ("COW") library. I was reading some of the docs and it occurred to me that it operated much like Windows (probably Windows 1), but what I couldn't find were any "sample" programs or tools to build a program based on the COW library. Does anyone have/know of a sample program that used the library? Was there an SDK for it or was it used only for Microsoft's products? > > Just looking for something new/interesting to learn about. Thanks! OS/2 1.0 used a character-oriented UI, because Presentation Manager wasn't ready yet. It's one of the more complete I saw. There are a handful of screenshots here: https://www.landley.net/history/mirror/os2/history/os210/index.html Later DOS-era apps often used CUA-compliant COW interfaces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access E.g. WordPerfect 6 for DOS, and MS Word 5.5 and 6 for DOS, both so, and are my favourite versions of both apps. MS Word 5.5 is a free download from MS now if you have something that can run MS or PC DOS and want to play. http://download.microsoft.com/download/word97win/Wd55_be/97/WIN98/EN-US/Wd55_ben.exe 3Com had a quite rich library for COW apps on Windows -- probably last seen for most people in the setup routines for the very popular 3C589 ISA Ethernet card. 3Com's 3+Share DOS-based NOS used it extensively and it was fast, consistent, had useful accelerator keystrokes and was generally a pleasure to use. They published APIs for 3rd parties to use it. Quarterdeck also published an API for DESQview, but it was mainly meant to do simple multitasking-awareness for DOS apps rather than for UI. It enabled copy/paste support and a few other things. http://firealarms.redbat.ca/guicentral/page.php?mc=misc&pg=d281 https://rkixmiller.dudaone.com/386-dos-environments https://winworldpc.com/product/desqview/1x Novell also had a reasonably rich COW UI library for Netware not only for its console admin/setup tools but also for 3rd party apps, on Netware or on DOS. Some screenshots: https://virtuallyfun.com/category/novell-netware-3-12/ http://maques.hu/maques/nwudma.htm http://rconip.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html But probably the richest Text UI (TUI) I know of was Niklaus Wirth's Oberon OS. I've put quite some work into its Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system) I'm glad to see that others have too. Oberon is alive and well. It runs under Windows, Linux and MacOS, as well as natively on x86-32 as well as a modern FPGA version of its original hardware. There's a good quick rundown here: http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/ This page goes into a lot of depth but mostly on the later A2 OS with the Bluebottle zooming UI: https://www.progtools.org/article.php?name=oberon§ion=compilers&type=tutorial The official docs and things are here: http://www.projectoberon.com/ Here's what the Linux version looks like: https://verhoeven272.nl/fruttenboel/Oberon/index.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 23 14:38:48 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <45cf88a8-8939-c521-e995-4cffd20d808a@bitsavers.org> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> <45cf88a8-8939-c521-e995-4cffd20d808a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> You're right, but it contains the broad strokes of the story SOME of the personalities were closer than the "history". But, the gratuitous fourth wall "Study this; because this is what really happened" warrants a soldering iron up the nose. (Trump inspired treatement for cocaine habit?) On Sat, 23 May 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > So did the TV series "Silicon Valley" and the book "Microserfs" Or "Halt and Catch Fire" homemade custom hardware reading in binary needed to disassemble the 5150 BIOS? and legal punishment for possession of such a listing? (PUBLISHED by IBM in a $40 "Technical reference" with BIOS source and schematics of almost everything (available long before any PCs being on the shelf without prepaid order), also DEBUG.COM in DOS, and BASIC with PEEK/POKE; although legal repercussions for infringement were real) Was the rest of that show dead-on accurate? So, the OFFICIAL history will be: A few dozen room sized mainframes, each one of which consisted entirely of reel to reel tape drives, a teletype output, and tendency to achieve malevolent sentience. Punch cards were invented in order to hang Chad (a major player in an election around the time of Y2K, which caused all the computers to self-destruct, and the airplaces to fall to earth) There were about a dozen prehistoric cavemen hobbyists with homemade S100 machines, two or three of whom had 8" drives. Periodic danger of triggering WWIII. Along came the Apple2, the first computer with a TV set, instead of rows of binary lights. Then the PC/5150 (although the "5150" designation is redacted), immediately replaced by the AT, the first computer with a printer and accounting software. Then the Mac, which invented word processing, 3.5" disks, user interface, and pointing. And inspired the creation of Xerox PARC (note the similarities) Steve Jobs invented computers, and talked Shugart into 5.25" drives, later, he invented MP3 and cellphones. Bill Gates invented software, and cold-called IBM to tell them about the idea of an operating system. Later, he invented monopolies. Linus (the one in "Peanuts"?) invented unix Al Gore invented the interwebs. (early name for World Wide Web, which is the name of the Facebook program. GOOGLE invented Information Retrieval (an esoteric technical term for searching). Amazon invented buying stuff without going to the store. Facebook invented friends and socializing. YouTube invented movies, and video (there are rumors of a pre-corona venue called movie theaters!) Wikipedia, primarily used for school term papers, invented history, knowledge, and indisputable authority. CP/M was an unauthorized plagiarization of a pre-release copy of MS-DOS. TRS80, Atari, Commodore, and CP/M computers were esoteric unicorns (all based on Apple2, PC/5150, and Mac) It is unknown whether any were actually extant. "Programs" is an archaic prehistoric name for Apps. 1950s FORTRAN was based on 1970s Valtrep First email was on a mid 1990s Sun. Gerald Ford's invention of the automocar, which ran on a tank of burning fossils, is another discussion. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred (one of the old fart relics) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 23 15:24:01 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 13:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > It is pretty much the *same* BASIC in the PET, VIC-20 and C64. It got > trivial adjustments for the hardware, but bear in mind: the PET had no > graphics, PETSCII/PETASCII character graphics were almost as good as TRS80 character graphics! :-) https://i2.wp.com/www.the8bitguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Commodore-History-Part-1-The-Pet-0011-PETSCII.png > ??? the Sinclair ZX Spectrum, which was cheaper & had a crappy keyboard, That was a keyboard?? I thought that it was just a picture of a keyboard glued on, as a suggestion of a possible accessory to purchase. :-) Besides, the bottom of the door scrapes it. > keeping obsolete versions of these vast monolithic OSes (which nobody > fully understands any more) maintained and patched for 5, 10, even 15 > or so years after release. BUT, if any ever achieve stability, support is discontinued, to try to force purchase of a newer, even less reliable one. I happen to be fanatic about continuing to use software as long as the hardware that it needs still exists. For example, on dedicated machines that are not exposed to "outside", why would I replace the OS, AND THEN HAVE TO replace the programs that those machines are dedicated for? (example: Vaio TR3 running XP and ANYDVD, Lenovo Thinkpad running Windoze7 and Handbrake) I do not CURRENTLY see any advantage to planned obsolescence. > Which is the business I work in. > Yay. > CBM apparently still had no real clue _why_ the C64 was a massive hit, > or who was buying it, or why. I was tempted to get one of Jeri Ellsworth's knock-offs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 23 16:02:44 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 15:02:44 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01a8d308-0713-fac3-f3f5-59ad06ccb21a@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/23/2020 12:55 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Which is what has now landed us with an industry centred around huge, > unmaintainable, insecure OSes composed of tens of millions of lines of > unsafe C (& C derivatives), daily and weekly mandatory updates in the > order of hundreds of megabytes, and a thriving industry centred around > keeping obsolete versions of these vast monolithic OSes (which nobody > fully understands any more) maintained and patched for 5, 10, even 15 > or so years after release. So what is new about that, rather than being in assembler. Forget MoneySoft being evil, what about Intel and IBM? It is all marketing. 1970's time sharing, 1980's Home Computing 2020's the cloud 2030's Online computing with the phone-pc. K&R C I feel was the best of all the C's, it fit the hardware. New hardware, new revised standard. I never did like object oriented programing,classes don't fit the real world, or operands are so overloaded you don't know what it does. Does water+lemons give a error or lemonade? Ben. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 23 16:49:30 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 22:49:30 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 23 May 2020 19:29 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate > > > > > On May 23, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > As it looks like I am not going to be able to repair the monitor board > > for my VAXmate I am wondering if I can do anything with the outputs > > from the I/O board to drive an external monitor instead. > > > > > > > > The connector to the monitor board has RGB+Intensity outputs at TTL levels. > > The horizontal sync has a frequency of 26.6KHz, active low with the > > high voltage 3.7V, Vertical sync is 60Hz. I don't believe that > > corresponds to any known standard, does it? > > I assume it's the same as the Pro video. That might not exactly match > standards. But the intensity output is an acceptable 480i monochrome video > signal. I've fed mine into a video capture device and into a TV display, both > work. > > > I had a go at building this > > http://www.dasarodesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pet-composite- > > video- adapter.jpg feeding its output to a composite to VGA device to > > see if it would convert it to VGA, but no luck. > > VGA has double the horizontal frequency, so that's going to be problematic. > What should work is to convert the RGB signal to "component video" and feed > that into a TV monitor that has such an input with 480i support. There are > some simple circuits for doing this in design notes from various chip > companies. One that uses a triple video amp is nice except that the device only > comes in a microscopic size SMT package. Older devices should work too, > though. I have wondered about RGB, the I/O board does output an RGB signal along with Intensity, Horizontal Sync and Vertical Sync, but I don't know if I could feed that to a monitor that accepts RGB signals as I don't know what the voltage levels should be. I have a VR241 which seems to have suitable inputs but I don't know if I dare send the signals from the I/O board straight to the VR241. I can't find a manual for it. > > One complication is sync. The Pro has sync on the monochrome signal as well > as on the green one, but if you convert the RGB to component video, sync needs > to be on the "Y" output and G is only a portion of that, so it probably won't be > good enough. The intensity signal could be used as Y, except that in the case of > the Pro it isn't done right -- it should be a weighted sum of R/G/B with most of > the weight on G, but instead DEC simply made it R+G+B (equal weights). > > I'd like to build a circuit to do this, with a sync separator, some video amps to > do RGB->Y/Pb/Pr and reinsert the sync. Maybe in a few months. > > paul From cube1 at charter.net Sat May 23 17:07:33 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 17:07:33 -0500 Subject: GHDL Thanks (Re: (V)HDL Toolsets) In-Reply-To: <5fabc0e9-663e-bbda-c710-73f188b04f71@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> <5fabc0e9-663e-bbda-c710-73f188b04f71@charter.net> Message-ID: <92fa8ca9-2fcf-31b7-4f97-0f4d7df721e9@charter.net> Thanks to all of those who suggested looking at GHDL. Essentially instant "analyze" runs. That alone is going to save me hours => days => even weeks of time compared to Vivado or even ISE. I tried one file I had already generated and it worked as is, except for the need to yank out the library/use statements for Vivado default libraries and replace them with use WORK.ALL (and added a template file that gets automatically included, so one can put in whatever one wants to use). Also simulated fine. GTKWave is a little flaky (sometimes it hangs when closing - I am using a pre-built Windows version, so it might be a little long in the tooth), but it certainly gets the job done. Thanks! JRJ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 23 17:22:42 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 23:22:42 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <058801d63150$ad4df380$07e9da80$@gmail.com> > I have wondered about RGB, the I/O board does output an RGB signal along > with Intensity, Horizontal Sync and Vertical Sync, but I don't know if I could > feed that to a monitor that accepts RGB signals as I don't know what the > voltage levels should be. I have a VR241 which seems to have suitable inputs > but I don't know if I dare send the signals from the I/O board straight to the > VR241. I can't find a manual for it. > > Rob, It looks like the VR241 accepts TTL video https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_100#Graphics Dave From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat May 23 17:52:59 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 00:52:59 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200523225259.GA10523@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 01:24:01PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 23 May 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] >> ? the Sinclair ZX Spectrum, which was cheaper & had a crappy keyboard, > That was a keyboard?? > I thought that it was just a picture of a keyboard glued on, as a suggestion > of a possible accessory to purchase. :-) > Besides, the bottom of the door scrapes it. Sinclair's keyboards *were* glued-on :) You perhaps forget that the UK was on the skids in the early 1980s and working-class families had no chance of affording one of those fancy imported American C64s. Around that time, my parents bought their house for ?8,000. They were hardly going to spend 5% of that on my Christmas present. I got a ZX81 and would bloody well like it or lump it. Uncle Clive had been making dubiously-cheap electronics using equal measures of ingenious design and cutting one corner too many since the 1970s, so he was well-placed to clean up in the more tight-fisted end of the UK computer market. The posh kids got a BBC Micro because of a government push to put computers into schools, which is why the C64 didn't really sell to the affluent either. There were also some other weird British machines such as the Dragon 32 which still seemed to be more common than the C64 yet barely merit a footnote in history today. The C64 was reasonably popular in (as-then) West Germany, because they still had an economy unlike the UK; hence "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet". Further east, they were doing cheap knock-offs of Sinclair machines because even those were far too expensive when all you had were Ostmarks or worse. From spc at conman.org Sat May 23 17:58:47 2020 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 18:58:47 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <20200523124134.9B7E918C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200523124134.9B7E918C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20200523225847.GB23998@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Noel Chiappa via cctalk once stated: > > "The [8008] was commissioned by Computer Terminal Corporation (CTC) to > implement an instruction set of their design for their Datapoint 2200 > programmable terminal. As the chip was delayed and did not meet CTC's > performance goals, the 2200 ended up using CTC's own TTL-based CPU instead." > > The 8008 was started before the 4004, but wound up coming out after it. (See > Lamont Wood, "Datapoint", pg. 73.) This is confirmed by its original name, > 1201 - the 4004 was going to be named the 1202, until Faggin convinced > Intel to name it the 4004. I found this Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9_FYRAfyqQ about the register set of the 4004, 8008, 8080, Z80, 8086 (and so on) to be interesting. I don't think it's 100% accurate, but it gives (in my opinion) a decent overview of the history of the x86 register set. -spc From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat May 23 18:47:53 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 16:47:53 -0700 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: <5fabc0e9-663e-bbda-c710-73f188b04f71@charter.net> References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> <5fabc0e9-663e-bbda-c710-73f188b04f71@charter.net> Message-ID: On May 23, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > I don't think a 100K character IBM SMS machine needs DDR. 8D For my > old student ECE ZAP machine, I just used very simple > on-development-board RAM, with a layer in between. Probably do the same > here. These days, the RAM on a lot of development boards is DDR or something else that requires a significant amount of controller work. > Ethernet might be nice, but I don't think I'd include a whole IP just to > get that I think it depends on whether you want to expose *Ethernet* to the device you?re implementing, or just to provide access to it *over* Ethernet. Exposing serial and other channels via SPI or I2C is certainly straightforward. > probably just use I2C or SPI to an external micro controller > (for lamps, switches, the console selectric, etc.) Doing this would > also help me fit to a smaller FPGA. Of course, there are also IP blocks for I2C and SPI, some of which may again map to dedicated hardware on the FPGA, providing more room for your logic. So yes, context matters, but you need to look at both what you want to accomplish *and* what the tooling and FPGA you?re using can provide. Why do more integration work than you have to when you can focus on the interesting stuff? -- Chris From steven at malikoff.com Sat May 23 19:09:48 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:09:48 +1000 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <20200523225259.GA10523@mooli.org.uk> References: <20200523225259.GA10523@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <863efea4b3945521d0eefbfd437c524a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Peter said > Uncle Clive had been making dubiously-cheap electronics using equal measures of > ingenious design and cutting one corner too many since the 1970s, so he was > well-placed to clean up in the more tight-fisted end of the UK computer market. He'd been doing that since the 1960's with classy-looking miniature amplifiers and impossibly small pocket radios. I remember as a young kid drooling over the Sinclair Micro-6 advertised in the late 60s UK 'Practical Electronics' magazines my dad collected. I had absolutely no idea how much "59/6" was, in Australian dollars, but I was sure it was way more than all the pocket money savings I had. And how would I go about ordering something from the other side of the world, even if I could afford it. Steve. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat May 23 19:32:58 2020 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> <45cf88a8-8939-c521-e995-4cffd20d808a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 12:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > So, the OFFICIAL history will be: > And AOL invented USENET. -- Charles From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 23 19:36:40 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 18:36:40 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> <45cf88a8-8939-c521-e995-4cffd20d808a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/23/2020 6:32 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 12:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> So, the OFFICIAL history will be: >> > > > And AOL invented USENET. > > -- Charles > I thought they invented CD's. Runs... Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 23 19:56:14 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 17:56:14 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <20200522173200.A3112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> <48e9446e-585d-12a2-f0cc-ca490de57aa6@bitsavers.org> <45cf88a8-8939-c521-e995-4cffd20d808a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <206020b5-03e9-1fc3-31d4-d255ad1810c9@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/20 5:36 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Runs... > Ben. > You can run, but we all will still think you're an idiot for these posts. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat May 23 19:58:48 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:58:48 -0400 Subject: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: In-Reply-To: <8d8f2adb-1630-f2fb-fa2c-d16ced92033d@bitsavers.org> References: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> <8d8f2adb-1630-f2fb-fa2c-d16ced92033d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Tapes are shedding that much, hm? C On 5/23/2020 12:29 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/23/20 9:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> try putting in a TK50 tape drive. > no point, you're going to pull it out every time you try to read a tape > to clean the head and tape path > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 23 20:10:44 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: In-Reply-To: References: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> <8d8f2adb-1630-f2fb-fa2c-d16ced92033d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6ce4c7c2-a461-cdeb-f3da-0f8a134bd725@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/20 5:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Tapes are shedding that much yup, they are garbage. high probability that you will make the first pass across the tape and it will stick when it reverses direction for the second pass the only TK drive I will even use is the TZ30 1/2 height because it is easy to get to the tape path to clean From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat May 23 20:35:24 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 18:35:24 -0700 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort Message-ID: <109664C2-1E3F-44A1-892D-9135EDB12C8F@snowmoose.com> Anyone here know of a SVGA-to-HDMI (or DisplayPort) adapter that a 13W3-to-SVGA adapter so I can connect my Sun frame buffers to a HDMI display? I am hoping someone here has already figured this one out. alan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat May 23 20:41:38 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 21:41:38 -0400 Subject: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: In-Reply-To: <6ce4c7c2-a461-cdeb-f3da-0f8a134bd725@bitsavers.org> References: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> <8d8f2adb-1630-f2fb-fa2c-d16ced92033d@bitsavers.org> <6ce4c7c2-a461-cdeb-f3da-0f8a134bd725@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5b8263e4-00f1-0232-0585-7931062221a8@alembic.crystel.com> Ok. Any way to suck data off them to an image file? I have some Vax 8600 diagnostics, would hate to just toss. C On 5/23/2020 9:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/23/20 5:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Tapes are shedding that much > > yup, they are garbage. > > high probability that you will make the first pass across the tape and > it will stick > when it reverses direction for the second pass > > the only TK drive I will even use is the TZ30 1/2 height because it is > easy to get to the tape > path to clean > > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat May 23 20:42:15 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 01:42:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> Message-ID: <465F0206ABBB52C2.9D00347B-94D6-4F01-A2F5-C7389D471F08@mail.outlook.com> Thanks Liam. Oberon is pretty interesting. I may download that just to see it in action. I?ve used a ton of 3Com cards so the setup program is pretty familiar. I haven?t used DESQview, well, since I had it installed on my Compaq DeskPro 386/25. What I am looking for is code that actually uses the CoW library...like a ?Hello World!? for the library. I do plan on installing VB_DOS and play with that too. I have no real project in mind for it though. Get Outlook for iOS On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 3:34 PM -0400, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 03:52, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > You know, reading about this made me dig out the info I had on the Character Oriented Windows ("COW") library. I was reading some of the docs and it occurred to me that it operated much like Windows (probably Windows 1), but what I couldn't find were any "sample" programs or tools to build a program based on the COW library. Does anyone have/know of a sample program that used the library? Was there an SDK for it or was it used only for Microsoft's products? > > Just looking for something new/interesting to learn about. Thanks! OS/2 1.0 used a character-oriented UI, because Presentation Manager wasn't ready yet. It's one of the more complete I saw. There are a handful of screenshots here: https://www.landley.net/history/mirror/os2/history/os210/index.html Later DOS-era apps often used CUA-compliant COW interfaces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access E.g. WordPerfect 6 for DOS, and MS Word 5.5 and 6 for DOS, both so, and are my favourite versions of both apps. MS Word 5.5 is a free download from MS now if you have something that can run MS or PC DOS and want to play. http://download.microsoft.com/download/word97win/Wd55_be/97/WIN98/EN-US/Wd55_ben.exe 3Com had a quite rich library for COW apps on Windows -- probably last seen for most people in the setup routines for the very popular 3C589 ISA Ethernet card. 3Com's 3+Share DOS-based NOS used it extensively and it was fast, consistent, had useful accelerator keystrokes and was generally a pleasure to use. They published APIs for 3rd parties to use it. Quarterdeck also published an API for DESQview, but it was mainly meant to do simple multitasking-awareness for DOS apps rather than for UI. It enabled copy/paste support and a few other things. http://firealarms.redbat.ca/guicentral/page.php?mc=misc&pg=d281 https://rkixmiller.dudaone.com/386-dos-environments https://winworldpc.com/product/desqview/1x Novell also had a reasonably rich COW UI library for Netware not only for its console admin/setup tools but also for 3rd party apps, on Netware or on DOS. Some screenshots: https://virtuallyfun.com/category/novell-netware-3-12/ http://maques.hu/maques/nwudma.htm http://rconip.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html But probably the richest Text UI (TUI) I know of was Niklaus Wirth's Oberon OS. I've put quite some work into its Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system) I'm glad to see that others have too. Oberon is alive and well. It runs under Windows, Linux and MacOS, as well as natively on x86-32 as well as a modern FPGA version of its original hardware. There's a good quick rundown here: http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/ This page goes into a lot of depth but mostly on the later A2 OS with the Bluebottle zooming UI: https://www.progtools.org/article.php?name=oberon§ion=compilers&type=tutorial The official docs and things are here: http://www.projectoberon.com/ Here's what the Linux version looks like: https://verhoeven272.nl/fruttenboel/Oberon/index.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat May 23 21:12:30 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 03:12:30 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:49 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > The horizontal sync has a frequency of 26.6KHz, active low with the > > > high voltage 3.7V, Vertical sync is 60Hz. I don't believe that > > > corresponds to any known standard, does it? > > > > I assume it's the same as the Pro video. That might not exactly match > > standards. But the intensity output is an acceptable 480i monochrome > video > > signal. I've fed mine into a video capture device and into a TV display, > both > > work. Err, no. The Pro (and Rainbow, DECmate II, etc) are TV rate. The horizontal frequency is 15.57kHz or thereabouts. Those machines will work with TV-rate video capture devices. [...] > I have wondered about RGB, the I/O board does output an RGB signal along > with Intensity, Horizontal Sync and Vertical Sync, but I don't know if I > could feed that to a monitor that accepts RGB signals as I don't know what > the voltage levels should be. I have a VR241 which seems to have suitable > inputs but I don't know if I dare send the signals from the I/O board > straight to the VR241. I can't find a manual for it. Again the VR241 is TV rate. The inputs are, I think, the normal 1V levels into 75ohms. My experience is that sensible over-voltages on monitor inputs (e.g. 5V TTL signals into 1V analogue inputs) do no damage. It may not work, if it does it may look terrible, but it won't let the magic smoke out. -tony From boris at summitclinic.com Sat May 23 21:15:50 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 18:15:50 -0800 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200524021611.8862C27635@mx1.ezwind.net> Thanks for that really detailed review of microprocessor history! A post to save. Will have to doublecheck about the C64 as the first source I found was Wikipedia and usually look for another source to confirm that. Have a book on disassembly of C64 ROMS which came in very helpfull when I was writing assembler for C64 using the slowest floppy disk drive I've ever encountered. After your detailed discussion of the bizarre variety of early Intel microprocessors I now recall why I refused to have anything to do with PC's in late 1980's. First played with a 512 K Mac in 1986 and was blown away. Managed to get a Mac to program on while I was in med school and used C64 as my timing device for neurologic experimentation. Glad I just did one contract programming job while I was in Calgary as had another option of porting my code to a PC with 80286 processor; once I had a look at the specs decided that I was much more comfortable with a 68000 based system. Mac was really nice as it had a debugging switch and used to spend hours singlestepping through code and disassembled first Mac virus I encountered in 1988. Mac was very nice as most used routines were all ROM based and could do a lot in 512 Kb of RAM. Now run all of my Mac programs in BasiliskII given that Apple stopped supporting old code once they switched from PowerPC to Wintel CPU's. Actually, in 1988 M$ QuickBasic was quite easy to use and made it trivial to do graphics and windows on a Mac. The one paid project I did was to essentially rewrite a program that another programmer had tried to code in C, but crashed and burned when she tried to create forms and buttons - seemed simple when one looked through Inside Macintosh books but much faster to code in QuickBasic and there were errors in those Mac books. The one drawback of QB was that it only supported 24 bit addressing as I discovered when I got my MacIIvx and upgraded RAM to 16 Mb. Used to think 32 Mb was an enourmous amount of RAM (in comparison to PDP-11 it was). I've never liked M$ software as it seems whenever they produce a good product, they dump it and come up with something far worse and stop supporting the old one. QuickBasic for Mac was very nice as it allowed me to concentrate on data acquisition and analysis with forms and button implementation code trivial (I wasn only 9 years beyond running data analysis on a 360 with FORTRAN and still have those card decks and Mac made me switch out of batch job mindset). Also I consider the 1990 version of M$ word far superior to their latest versions. Similarly, VB6 is what I switched to once I was forced to use PC's given that most medical software seems to run only on M$ platforms. Hardcore Visual Basic was a great book and was nice to be able to code in VB6, have compiled programs that could be augmented with C subroutines or assembly code. VB.NET is a POS whose only function seems to be putting people in a sandbox. I think I naturally gravitated to Apple because in 1980's it was far more open than any M$ product. Likely a lot of that was due to Wozniak who was happy to share everything whereas Jobs was probably reeling him in. The impression I got of Bill Gates was that he was determined to extract as much money from every product M$ made and schemed how to extract money from people after they bought it. Unfortunately, Mac is getting more and more sandboxed compared to the way they used to be but are orders of magnitude more stable than windoze. I've slowly been migrating my large collection of VB6 programs I've written over the last 20 years to Linux but still haven't managed to get VB6 development environment to run under Linux; can always run XP in a virtual machine for when I need that. Interestingly, Windoze BasiliskII has no problem running under Wine as do most open source programs written for Windoze. For the same thrill I used to get playing with a mix of hardware and code 40 years ago, I've developed a considerable affection for the Parallax Propeller chip. Am very tempted to get Propeller2 which is still in development, but samples of prototypes are available. All assembly language programming for the cogs, simultaneous execution in 8 cogs and easy to do things like measure time of geiger counter events to 1 microsecond precision using one cog for generating high quality random numbers (low byte of interval). Can do same thing in FPGA's, but that would be too steep a learning curve for me now. Boris Gimbarzevsky >On Fri, 22 May 2020, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: >>Thanks for posting the timeline of various Basic interpreters. I >>wasn't aware that Gates/Allen also wrote Basic for C64. > >Microsoft did a BASIC for the Commodore PET. I wasn't aware that >they did the C64. > >>Did download the 8080 Basic source code out of interest, but in >>early 1980's had very little to do with IBM PC. > >PC was 8088, NOT 8080. >BUT, an original 8080 source code can be run through some >algorithmic translation to automagically patch it into something >that is close enough to 8088. > > >All of my knowledge of the following is third hand, and probably >mostly WRONG. If you are lucky, maybe some of the folk here who >actually KNOW this stuff will step in and give the right information. >Sequence is only approximate. > > >Well, we can start by considering the 4004. 1971. It was not the >"FIRST" microprocessor, although the later chips based on it >dominated the market. 4 bit data bus. It was designed to be able to >make a whole range of Busicom calculators that could be essentially >the same hardware, and changing ROM, or moving a jumper from >cheapest model to most expensive model would void the warranty. > >Then came the 8008, with EIGHT bit data bus, and 14 bit address bus >(16K of RAM) > >Then came the 8080, with 8 bit data bus and 16 bit address bus (64K >of RAM) That brought about a giant surge in hobbyists trying to >build computers, including the MITS Altair, etc. > >It is important to note that each Intel chip consisted of "minor" >modifications to the previous one. That made it easier to modify a >design or software from one to the next one. Minor patches tended >to be all that was needed. THAT is important. 'course it means >that some aspects are really weird due to being patched on top of >patched, on top of patched, instead of redesigned. > > >MEANWHILE, other companies started trying to get into the game. > >Motorola came out with the 6800, which was pretty cool. >But, they were taking a long time to get around to the next ones, so >a group of engineers left and started MOS Technology, and came out >with the 6500. Motorola's lawyers were not amused. So, the >engineers redesigned an all new, "non-infringing" one called the 6502. > >Motorola eventually got around to trying to design "the best 8 bit >microprocessor", and came out with the 6809. >They had designed from scratch, to try to make it the best, so it >had so much different, that previous machines could not be easily >modified for it, and had to be redesigned for it, and software >needed to be re-written, not just patched. They had difficulty >finding any takers, in spite of obvious design superiority, because >most manufaturers were already established with other chips. BUT, >Radio Shack built a machine called "the Radio Shack Color Computer" >around a Motorola application note. Radio shack didn't want it >competing with their other products, and didn't see any reason to >include capabilities, so they had horrible constraints, such as >chiclet keyboard, unexpandable RF video, cartridge slot instead of >expansion bus, etc. > > >A lot of the early machines were intel 8080, which had 8 bit data >bus and 16 bit address bus, which meant maximum of 64K of RAM, >although it was not very hard to cheat for 128K. > >Gary Kildall needed an OS for managing his source code on 8 inch >disks that he added to his computer. He wrote "Control Program and >Monitor", which later became "Control Program for Microcomputers" >("CP/M"). He tried to get Intel to market it, but they didn't think >that there would ever be enough market to sell an operating system >for a microcomputer. >So, he started "Intergalactic Digital Research" > >Later, when the hobbyists grew up and lost their sense of humor, >"Thinker Toys" became "Morrow designs". (they had been having some >trademark issues) >"Kentucky Fried Computer" became "Northstar" (they had been having >some trademark issues) >and "Intergalactic Digital Research" bcame "Digital Research Incorporated" > > >Then Zilog came out with the Z80, which had major enhancements. >BUT, code using those enhancements would not run on an 8080, so CP/M >remained 8080, and many/most? programmers stuck with 8080 for marketable code. >Intel came out with the 8085, which had DIFFERENT [incompatible] >enhancements, so many/most? continued to stick with 8080 code. >I think that the Radio Shack model 100 is 8085. > > >A hobbyist named Steve Wozniak wanted to build a Z80 computer. But >it was going to cost too much. At Wescon (trade show), he got a >fantastic deal on some 6502 chips. Not what he had been wanting, >but he could make it work, and he could afford them! > >He hooked up with Steve Jobs, who had some marketing ideas. They >sold a bunch of "blue boxes", kited some checks, sold Jobs' VW bus >and Woz's calculator, and put together a batch of kits. ($666.66; >they later said that they had not realized the theological >implications of the price) >And, hence, we got "Apple Computer". Later, Apple Music (Beatles) >talked to them about the name. Apple Music agreed to not get into >computers, and Apple Computers agreed to not get into music. Hmmm. > >Atari and Commodore both ended up also using the 6502. > >Motorola > >Then Intel decided to build a "16 bit processor". The 8086 has a 16 >bit data bus and a 20 bit address bus, for a maximum of 1M or RAM >When the IBM PC wasbeing planned, there was a lot of difference in >cost between 8 bit and 16 bit support chips. >The 8088 was ALMOST the same as an 8086, but with an 8 bit data bus, >which significantly reduced costs! From an engineering perspective, >the 8088 is an 8 bit version of the 16 bit 8086. > From a MARKETING perspective, it's 16 bit, or maybe 32 bit, or > maybe 64 bit, etc. If a 4 bit machine has a 128 bit Smell-o-vision > port, marketing will call the machine "128 bit" > >The IBM PC was an 8088. > >IBM went to Microsoft to get BASIC for it. Bill gates put on a suit >and met with them. >The "Pirates Of The Valley" story of Microsoft cold-calling IBM to >sell an operating system PINS THE NEEDLE ON THE BOGUSIMETER. The >author of that fiction needs a hot soldering iron shoved 8 inches up his nose. > >Microsoft was happy to oblige on BASIC. > >One of the IBM engineers had an Apple2 with a Microsoft "Softcard" >(Z80) to run CP/M. So, IBM asked Microsoft to also supply "the >CP/M". Bill Gates explained that that was Digital Research. > >So, IBM went to Digital Research in Pacific grove to get "the CP/M". >There was some "culture clash". IBM showed up in blue suits. There >is an unconfirmed report that somebody at DR thought that it was a >drug raid. I have looked out that upstairs window, and can imagine it. >The IBM suits encountered barefoot workers in shorts and not all >wearing shirts (both sexes?) female workers without bras. cats and >a dog. plants. Surfboards and bicycles in every room. >Gary Kildall wasn't even THERE! He had gone to fly his plane up to >Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. Official story is that that was an >essential errand to deliver some documentation (and no lower >employee could have put some shoes on and driven up?). His wife was >there, and he had told her, "They're just coming to sign a license >agreement. Let them wait in the living room with the rest of the customers." >IBM was not amused. > >IBM went back to Microsoft. I heard that Bill Gates told his people >that anybody without a suit should stay home for the day. >IBM said that they wante Microsoft to provide the OS. Bill Gates >said, "we do BASIC. We don't do operating systems." IBM said that >they intended to get the BASIC and the OS from ONE source. Bill >Gates said, "Let me tell you about our new OS department!" > >Then Bill Gates went down the street to Seattle Computer Products >and bought 86-DOS/QDOS ("Quick and Dirty OS"), including hardware to >run it on, and the contract of Tim Paterson who wrote it. >Microsoft had a new OS department. > > >Motorola STARTED work on "The best 16 bit processor". Rather than >patching something earlier, and being stuck with legacy oddities, >they designed from scratch. So, it took longer. > >Motorola eventually came out with the 68000, which was the best 16 >bit processor. (or 32 bit or 64 bit if you are in marketing) > > >The Apple3 was a major financial setback. Much more money, for very >little more. >Apple started on a total redesign. It is rumored that for the Lisa, >they explicitly avoided anybody with prior experience to avoid >repeating previous bad ideas. 'course hiring brilliant folk >straight out of college meant that nobody had the prior experience >to know the consequences of building a machine for which software >could NOT just be patched from previous versions. The Lisa was >magnificant! and in a price range (>$20K?) where sales were to >overpaid exectuvies wanting to impress other overpaid >executives. It actually came close to putting Apple on the rocks. >And, it was an ALL-NEW (and improved) machine. Old software >couldn't just be patched, it had to be re-written. The brilliant >recovery plan was to take the Lisa design and cut every corner that >could be cut, to make a machine that could be sold for $500. Once >they did, they found that they could still get away with selling it >for $2K. it was mandated that the resulting machine would come with >four significant pieces of software. By the time it was ready, >those had become Mac-Write, Mac-Paint, Mac-Write, and >Mac-Paint. But that was enough. The marketing people were smart >enough to change the grumbling about building a computer for >ignorant masses into "a computer for the rest of US" > >Later, Commodore (Amiga) and Atari (ST) used the 68000. There are >some amazing stories (that i don't know) about that "technology swap" > > >Intel came out with the 80286, 16 bit data bus with 24 bit address >bus. with fewer limitations. But still a few significant ones, >such as how to switch in and out of "protected mode". "It's like >having to turn your engine off to switch gears on the freeway". >Bill Gates called the 80286, "Brain dead." >In "real mode", which would be limited to 20 bits of address, it is >easy to cheat and enable A20, which permits 64K past the 1M >boundary. THAT is required for Windoze 3.10 > >Then came the 80386, which could sorta be called a 32 bit >processor. And the 80386-SX, which analogous to the 8088, was a 16 >bit version of the 32 bit 30386, permitting building a software >compatible machine using cheap 80286 support chips. > >80486, which is kinda like a 80386 plus 80387 math chip, and the >80486SX, with is 80486 without the math processor. > >and Pentium. Intel had been finding out the hard way that it was >difficult to maintain trademark of a number (Oldsmobile "442" >notwithstanding) Other manufacturers would make a 80386 like chip >and call it a 486, or an 80486 like chip and call it a 586, etc. So, >they had a naming session. And the other entries were even worse >than "Pentium". >I'm surprised that that didn't backfire horribly! Consider: In >about 1965, Honeywell bought Pentax from Asahi. Honeywell could >totally legitimately have come out with a processor (joint venture >with AMD/Cyrix/etc.?) and called it the "Pentaxium". Intel wouldn't >even be able to object. > > >Yeah, there have been more since then, but new stuff isn't >interesting for another ten or twenty years. OR MORE for some of >the boring current stuff. > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > >>As was working with PDP-11's at that time, really disliked 8080 >>instruction set and got a C64 instead which was considerably >>cheaper than IBM PC and much easier to write assembly code >>for. C64 basic is fairly ugly but bought a 6502 assembler and just >>used Basic to display stuff on screen and call my work was done in >>assembly language code. Had no trouble sampling switch data at 1 >>KHz using my "toy" computer. A couple of guys from UBC Physiology >>decided to build a programmable stimulator based on C64 which they >>were trying to sell for $2K, considerably less than the ~$10 K that >>the dedicated device that was commonly used then. Even though >>their timing specifications matched the expensive device, a lot of >>researchers back then didn't want a "toy" to be part of their lab >>setup so sales were few. >> >>Recently found a movie Pirates of Silicon Valley which had some of >>early Microsoft history and, if depictions of individuals are true >>to reality, explains why I far preferred Mac in comparison to ugly >>early windows. It also helped that 68000 was a very easy processor >>to migrate to after 8 years doing assembler/FORTRAN programming on >>a PDP-11. Couldn't believe it when I had a full 512 Kb of RAM to play in. From cube1 at charter.net Sat May 23 21:40:13 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 21:40:13 -0500 Subject: (V)HDL Toolsets In-Reply-To: References: <042172c2-b56c-1685-e0ef-5bcc3ab9b36b@charter.net> <586D0285-C538-41BE-B44F-B62D18FF75F9@sytse.net> <5fabc0e9-663e-bbda-c710-73f188b04f71@charter.net> Message-ID: On 5/23/2020 6:47 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On May 23, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> > > I think it depends on whether you want to expose *Ethernet* to the device you?re implementing, or just to provide access to it *over* Ethernet. Exposing serial and other channels via SPI or I2C is certainly straightforward. > Actually, neither, really. This is an ollllllllllllld mainframe I am implementing. I will be exposing the lamps and switches (machine state vector), a selectric console typewriter I/O and 7 track tape drives, and maybe, eventually, a tiny (10MB) random access device. SPI or I2C to/from a microcontroller (PIC, Arduino, whatever) will do the trick nicely - it can then talk TCP to the PC for data for the tapes and disk. JRJ From brain at jbrain.com Sat May 23 22:13:53 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 22:13:53 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> On 5/23/2020 1:55 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > The C64 also had a very expensive floppy disk drive (with its own > onboard 6502 derivative, ROM & RAM) but a _serial_ interface to the > computer, so it was both dog-slow and very pricey. The serial interface would have been fast enough, if the MOS folks had talked to the design team about the bug and squashed it early. But, they did not, and on the VIC-20, which did not expect to move many drives, no one cared.? When the VIC-40 (c64) came out, by then the drive was more important, but no one was going to redo the drive again (they tried to put a new trace on the IEC bus to enable fast mode later, but it got optimized out in final layout in Japan). > > All because CBM cheaped out and used a late-1970s MS BASIC in an > early-1980s machine with for the time quite high-end graphics and > sound. You say that like CBM was known for not "cheaping" out and this was an anomaly.? Bil Herd noted that they designed the 64 to last just as long as the warrantee. > It is also largely responsible, all on its own, for a lot of the bad > reputation that BASIC has to this day, which in turn was in part > responsible for the industry's move away from minis programmed in > BASIC (DEC, Alpha Micro, etc.) and towards *nix programmed in C, and > *nix rivals such as OS/2 and Windows, also programmed in C. Oh, I think that's a stretch.? Because of the system's ubiquity, there are plenty of BASIC upgrades available to add the requisite audio and video options.? BASIC had other issues, Commodore can't take credit for giving it a bad name. > It sounds ridiculous but I seriously propose that much of this is > because *the* #1 home computer vendor in the Western world kept using > a cheap and nasty BASIC for nearly a decade after its sell-by date. As a home user of the machine back int he day, I highly disagree. We all had fixed the BAD BASIC and slow drive issues a few years after intro.? By 1984, everyone had fastload or JiffyDOS or SpeeDOS or similar, and BASIC 4.0 or even better BASICs were always available.? It was a games machine, with a rightly limited BASIC (you want more feature, buy the add-in.? It was like the in app purchases of today's games) > > CBM had no real idea what it was doing. It sold lots of PETs, then > lots more VIC-20s, then literally millions of C64s, without ever > improving the onboard software to match the hardware. I think you just don't agree with what they were doing.? Jack was selling game machines that had enough computing power to satisfy Mom and Dad's edict that the kids not just have a game console.? If you wanted good use of video or audio, you bought from CBM or the third party.? BASIC was minimal, because you had to have something to load the game :-) > > So what did it do next? A very expensive portable version, for all the > businesspeople who needed a luggable home gaming computer. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_SX-64 Oh come on.? The Osborne had the same size screen and sold well. Dipping their toe in that market to sell hardware doesn't seem such a stretch to me. > > Then it tried to sell incompatible successor machines, which failed -- > the Commodore 16 and Plus 4. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_16 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_Plus/4 I can't argue that, but the machines weren't supposed to exist. Jack wanted a Sinclair killer to mop up the low end of the market.? The C116 was that machine (complete with crappy chicklet KB and wedge form factor, priced at $USD49.00.? It was Jack and Gould's falling out that caused Jack to quit caring about the machine (which less competent minions decided to promote up into a business machine (+4) and a slightly larger form factor without the hideous chicklet KB (C16). They even toyed with a supersized +4 for a time (CV364), but I will agree with your angst on this line of machines. > > Better BASIC, bundled ROM business apps -- why?! -- but *not* superior > replacements for its best-selling line. Both flopped horribly. Yep, as did the C116, which I think was only released in Japan. > > CBM apparently still had no real clue _why_ the C64 was a massive hit, > or who was buying it, or why. Jack knew.? Sell low cost machines with good value to mop up market share and make money.? Put only the bare minimum in them. Folks after him did not agree, which I do think fits in with your statement. > > Later it offered the C128, which had multiple operating modes, > including a much better BASIC and an 80-column display, but also an > entire incompatible 2nd processor -- a Z80 so it could run CP/M. This > being the successor model to the early-'80s home computer used by > millions of children to play video games. They really did not want, > need or care about _CP/M_ of all things. Again, misleading.? The Z80 was not a design goal.? a 2MHz C64 compatible with 80 columns was the design goal.? THank the Z80 on some Marketing shmuck that promised CP/M compatibility on the unit (thinking the C64 CP/M cart would work, which it can't, because the cart is badly designed, I am told it was a bit f plagiarism from an Apple II CP/M card, but failed to take into account the strange C64 bus cycle).? Bil is around and can happily tell you the story of simply designing the Z80 cart into the main motherboard to checkoff the requirement and quit having to fight to get the cart to work. > There was _nearly_ another, incompatible of course, successor model > later still, the C65: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_65 > > *That* would have been a worthy successor, but by then, CBM had bought > the Amiga and wasn't interested any more. CBM really wasn't interested as soon as the Amiga purchase happened.? I think the C128 only got greenlit because CBM needed some cash flow and the Amiga was taking too long to ramp up sales.?? In my opinion, the C65 was an early retro machine, trying to bring back some of that 80's home computer vibe. Jim > -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From imp at bsdimp.com Sat May 23 22:17:25 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 21:17:25 -0600 Subject: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: In-Reply-To: <6ce4c7c2-a461-cdeb-f3da-0f8a134bd725@bitsavers.org> References: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> <8d8f2adb-1630-f2fb-fa2c-d16ced92033d@bitsavers.org> <6ce4c7c2-a461-cdeb-f3da-0f8a134bd725@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020, 7:10 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/23/20 5:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Tapes are shedding that much > > yup, they are garbage. > > high probability that you will make the first pass across the tape and it > will stick > when it reverses direction for the second pass > > the only TK drive I will even use is the TZ30 1/2 height because it is > easy to get to the tape > path to clean > The TK50 was compact, easy to use and convenient. Well, back in the 80s when I wrangled them in and out of the MicroVAX II running VMS. But, that was only when they were behaving. When they weren't they inspired the desire to drink heavily and or break things. Oh, and they were slow. And picky. And that's when they were new... I can't imagine trusting them today... sounds like they aged better than I feared the might... Warner > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 23 22:25:15 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: >> Later it offered the C128, which had multiple operating modes, >> including a much better BASIC and an 80-column display, but also an >> entire incompatible 2nd processor -- a Z80 so it could run CP/M. This >> being the successor model to the early-'80s home computer used by >> millions of children to play video games. They really did not want, >> need or care about _CP/M_ of all things. On Sat, 23 May 2020, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Again, misleading.? The Z80 was not a design goal.? a 2MHz C64 compatible > with 80 columns was the design goal.? THank the Z80 on some Marketing shmuck > that promised CP/M compatibility on the unit (thinking the C64 CP/M cart > would work, which it can't, because the cart is badly designed, I am told it > was a bit f plagiarism from an Apple II CP/M card, but failed to take into > account the strange C64 bus cycle).? Bil is around and can happily tell you > the story of simply designing the Z80 cart into the main motherboard to > checkoff the requirement and quit having to fight to get the cart to work. I met a few early purchasers of the C128. They were C64 users who felt that they ALSO needed a CP/M machine, and it was handy to have both machines in one case. It's possible that with a few more iterations, they might have been able to get the Z80 side and the C64 side to work together better. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 23 22:29:28 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 2020, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > Thanks for that really detailed review of microprocessor history! A post to > save. But, read carefully the corrections that others made! Such as Noel pointing out that I was mistaken in assuming that there was a direct progression in 4004 -> 8008 -> 8080, and Liam's discussion of the Commodore BASIC. I never had a Commodore 64. But, I had an MSD drive for a C64 connected to an IEEE-488 board in a PC. > After your detailed discussion of the bizarre variety of early Intel > microprocessors I now recall why I refused to have anything to do with PC's > in late 1980's. Well, there were advantages and disadvantages. The Motorola approach produced a better product. BUT, it meant that software was delayed for new products. It took a while before the good third party software showed up for the Mac. OTOH, the Intel processors were a series of little steps, so it was usually almost trivial to upgrade code to a new series of processors. It took Micropro less than a week to port their 8080 CP/M Wordstar to the 8088 PC. It then took them much longer than that to prepare new manuals. Some internal structures had patches on top of patches. Such as Segment:Offset memory addressing, and figuring out that the PC FDC could not do a DMA that straddled a physical (not Segment:Offset) 64K boundary, although Int13h didn't realize it and have a suitable error message - some later versions of DOS had occasional mysterious problems with FORMAT that were easily solved by adding or removing TSRs to move the location of its TPA. > I've never liked M$ software as it seems whenever they produce a good > product, they dump it and come up with something far worse and stop > supporting the old one. "Oh, but it is DANGEROUS to use a product past its [arbitrary, marketing chosen] SELL-BY date." >> All of my knowledge of the following is third hand, and probably mostly >> WRONG. If you are lucky, maybe some of the folk here who actually KNOW >> this stuff will step in and give the right information. >> Sequence is only approximate. And, the REAL history is much more interesting AND WEIRDER than the fictional variants. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat May 23 22:31:22 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5EC9EA8A.1010507@charter.net> Hello all, I started with a VIC, I then got a C-64, C-128, A1000, A2000 which I converted into an A2000T, the A3000T and finally an A4000T. I eventually broke down and got a 486 machine and installed Win2000 on it. Argh! I kept my A4000T for years after I got the 486. I networked them together with Arcnet! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 5/23/2020 10:25 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Later it offered the C128, which had multiple operating modes, >>> including a much better BASIC and an 80-column display, but also an >>> entire incompatible 2nd processor -- a Z80 so it could run CP/M. This >>> being the successor model to the early-'80s home computer used by >>> millions of children to play video games. They really did not want, >>> need or care about _CP/M_ of all things. > > On Sat, 23 May 2020, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> Again, misleading. The Z80 was not a design goal. a 2MHz C64 >> compatible with 80 columns was the design goal. THank the Z80 on >> some Marketing shmuck that promised CP/M compatibility on the unit >> (thinking the C64 CP/M cart would work, which it can't, because the >> cart is badly designed, I am told it was a bit f plagiarism from an >> Apple II CP/M card, but failed to take into account the strange C64 >> bus cycle). Bil is around and can happily tell you the story of >> simply designing the Z80 cart into the main motherboard to checkoff >> the requirement and quit having to fight to get the cart to work. > > I met a few early purchasers of the C128. > They were C64 users who felt that they ALSO needed a CP/M machine, and > it was handy to have both machines in one case. > > It's possible that with a few more iterations, they might have been > able to get the Z80 side and the C64 side to work together better. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From brain at jbrain.com Sat May 23 22:41:54 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 22:41:54 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5973bf52-816b-6370-79af-666c0b295203@jbrain.com> On 5/23/2020 10:25 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Again, misleading.? The Z80 was not a design goal.? a 2MHz C64 >> compatible with 80 columns was the design goal.? THank the Z80 on >> some Marketing shmuck that promised CP/M compatibility on the unit >> (thinking the C64 CP/M cart would work, which it can't, because the >> cart is badly designed, I am told it was a bit f plagiarism from an >> Apple II CP/M card, but failed to take into account the strange C64 >> bus cycle).? Bil is around and can happily tell you the story of >> simply designing the Z80 cart into the main motherboard to checkoff >> the requirement and quit having to fight to get the cart to work. > > I met a few early purchasers of the C128. > They were C64 users who felt that they ALSO needed a CP/M machine, and > it was handy to have both machines in one case. I don't completely fault the Marketing person for suggesting it. But, as Bil tells it, when he pushed back, saying everyone at the office knew the CP/M cart only worked on Rev 1 64s, Management (remember, Jack was gone now) noted that it had been promised to dealers in hard copy, so it had to happen. :-) I also think the hardcopy promosed 512kB RAM, but Commodore cheaped out on the MMU for the C128, so only 128kB is possible inside the machine.? Some extremely talented CBM HW gurus figured out how to leverage/abuse the UltiMAX mode of the original 64 to enable DMA transfers on the cart bus, which is why the 1750 RAM Expansion Unit exists. > > It's possible that with a few more iterations, they might have been > able to get the Z80 side and the C64 side to work together better. I think they would have.? Bil was not an expert on the Z80, he did as well as he could under time constraints.? If it had seen another revision, perhaps a full speed 4MHz Z80 would have been possible. But, like I said, I think the C128 was just a cash grab to keep the company afloat until Amiga sales could support it.? I remember in late 1980's, Commodore tried everything to get folks to trade in their 64 for an Amiga (500 or 600, I think). They wanted to kill of the 64, as they didn't intend to support it any more. And, those of us who did not move onto the Amiga were sore about their for years.? But, looking back now as an adult and with more knowledge of economics, it seems totally reasonable.? The 8-bit line had run it's course from a sales perspective.? 16/32 bit machines commanded higher prices, had more expansion options, etc. I'm not as much into Apple, but I believe the IIGS was a similar beast. Speed limited so as to not poach Mac sales, and was designed to bolster some cash flow until the sluggish Mac sales sped up. The story I heard from many sources was that Bill Mensch (who I believe Jack or at least Commodore helped set up Bill's Western Design Center) delivered the first version of the '816 to Apple, and the tech folks complained bitterly about some technical aspect of the addressing, essentially forcing Bill to redesign that aspect.? I've always wondered what the first version had, what the issue was, and what was done to address it to Apple's satisfaction. Jim From jecel at merlintec.com Sun May 24 00:06:03 2020 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 02:06:03 -0300 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Fred Cisin advised on: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:29:28 -0700 (PDT) > But, read carefully the corrections that others made! Some things are easy to check, like the fact that the Z80 came out in 1976 when Woz was already finishing the Apple II so he couldn't have considered using it for the Apple I. Note that this correction doesn't really add anything to your nice history and I am only using it to illustrate the general topic. People's memories are complicated. I used to tell people a story from 1983 about something I did. But around 2010 I found a text I had written in 1989 and it had a very different version of what happened. While my current memory is the same as in 2010 I have to trust that my 1989 self's memory was more correct. That is a good rule to follow, though sometimes I learn things that change how I remembered something so that the new memories are the more accurate ones. A good example is the Gary Kildall and the IBM guys story that you mentioned. Gary claimed that though the meeting was delayed by the NDA thing, it eventually started without him since his wife took care of 100% of the business side of DR. Then he arrived and was able to discuss the technical side. The IBM people remember the meeting not happening at all and not talking to Gary. How is this possible? Was one of them lying? I recently saw a very old interview with Steve Jobs. The reporter asked what had been his reaction when he first saw the Apple I. Steve claimed the question didn't make sense because he and Woz had come up with the computer together. He was lying, but more to himself than to the reporter - in his mind the Apple I was just an evolution of the Blue Box and he had done that together with Woz (he implied this in his answer). The reporter was probably aware that when Steve came back from Oregon and saw the working Apple I a bunch of people had seen it before him at previous meetings of the Homebrew Computer Club. But if you make a movie based on Steve's memories you get stuff like him dragging a reluctant Woz (who drops the machine due to dragging his feet) to a Club meeting so people can see it for the first time and buy it. All this supposes that people want to get it right. If they are creating entertainment "inspired by true facts" then the rules are totally different. "Pirates" reframed stories of Woz and Bill Fernandez as being with Woz and Jobs instead to make it less confusing to the public, for example. "Micro Men" makes the Proton prototype work the second before the BBC people walked in the door, and not a few hours before like in real life that wouldn't be as dramatic. As long as the spirit of the story remains, I can put up with stuff like this. Unlike in "The Imitation Game" where a key element of the story is that nobody involved ever told what they had done even to their spouses until the UK government itself unclassified it. So to have the "book ends" of the movie be Alan Turing casually narrating the whole story to a random policeman is absurdly against the spirit of the story. The fourth wall thing for the IBM meeting in "Pirates" is another movie ruining scene for me. -- Jecel From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 24 01:28:10 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 23:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: Yes, there will always be discrepancies. I have to admit that many/most?/all? of my memories may be inaccurate or wrong. Some don't matter; some can be enough to ruin a good anecdote; some create a different story. I'm saddened that Jim Adkisson and Don Massaro of Shugart have changed their story and now deny that the size of the 5.25" disk was based on Dr. Wang pointing to a bar napkin. The "Bar Napkin Disk" was a GREAT anecdote; now ruined. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/05/102657925-05-01-acc.pdf Whether Jobs saw the Apple1 after it was finished V had worked on it seems pretty big, but might not necessarily really be, since they HAD worked together on other projects around the same time. Whether Gary missed the meeting, or was late for it will matter to some people. To Gary, it might not have mattered much, but to the IBM people, EITHER is inexcusably disrespectful. Gary's wife was quite capable of handling everything that needed to be done (although the IBM suits likely didn't see it that way - women in authority was contrary to their culture at the time). A comment by Gary of let them wait in the living room like any other customer seems in character with Gary's personality, but would enrage certain IBM types. There was certainly significant culture clash. Whether it was solely Gary's casual and informal attitude to business relationships, or whether it was the IBM people SHOCKED by the casual and informal business behavior and attire and unable to consider doing business with such a "hippy" doesn't surprise me. I had dealings with similar culture clashes around that time. Maybe I'm just still pissed off about how my uncle, who was an IBM suit, used to be extremely obnoxiously unpleasant about my having a beard. Was I the ONLY programmer without a crew-cut and not wearing a suit and tie at all times? To me, the culture clash aspect makes it one of the greatest stories of the time. Was Gary not taking the meeting seriously enough to be there on time, and as a consequence, ending up being $80B behind Bill Gates, the stupidest mistake anybody has ever made? Or the bravest thing that anybody has ever done to stand up to them and put refusal to be subservient ahead of the money by deciding that the men from IBM did not deserve different treatment than other customers? It might be excusable if the film makers chose to downplay that, or even not mention it (which they didn't), but to replace it with a grossly untrue "historical lesson" reversing and incompatible with the truth is not excusable, and incompatible with the spirit of the story. Either way, changing it from IBM not wanting to deal with DR into Bill Gates cold calling IBM to tell them "what an operating system is" is totally invalidating, marginalizing, and misrepresenting a significant aspect of the microcomputer culture, and the people who made it. (AND is ridiculously insulting to the IBM culture to state that they didn't know what an operating system is!) The gratuitous fourth wall "Study this, because this is the way that it really happened" finally took it COMPLETELY out of the realm of "differing memories", "artistic license", and "improving the narrative" (all of which have a place) into gross misrepresentation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Sun, 24 May 2020, Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctalk wrote: > Fred Cisin advised on: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:29:28 -0700 (PDT) >> But, read carefully the corrections that others made! > > Some things are easy to check, like the fact that the Z80 came out in > 1976 when Woz was already finishing the Apple II so he couldn't have > considered using it for the Apple I. Note that this correction doesn't > really add anything to your nice history and I am only using it to > illustrate the general topic. > > People's memories are complicated. I used to tell people a story from > 1983 about something I did. But around 2010 I found a text I had written > in 1989 and it had a very different version of what happened. While my > current memory is the same as in 2010 I have to trust that my 1989 > self's memory was more correct. That is a good rule to follow, though > sometimes I learn things that change how I remembered something so that > the new memories are the more accurate ones. > > A good example is the Gary Kildall and the IBM guys story that you > mentioned. Gary claimed that though the meeting was delayed by the NDA > thing, it eventually started without him since his wife took care of > 100% of the business side of DR. Then he arrived and was able to discuss > the technical side. The IBM people remember the meeting not happening at > all and not talking to Gary. How is this possible? Was one of them > lying? > > I recently saw a very old interview with Steve Jobs. The reporter asked > what had been his reaction when he first saw the Apple I. Steve claimed > the question didn't make sense because he and Woz had come up with the > computer together. He was lying, but more to himself than to the > reporter - in his mind the Apple I was just an evolution of the Blue Box > and he had done that together with Woz (he implied this in his answer). > The reporter was probably aware that when Steve came back from Oregon > and saw the working Apple I a bunch of people had seen it before him at > previous meetings of the Homebrew Computer Club. But if you make a movie > based on Steve's memories you get stuff like him dragging a reluctant > Woz (who drops the machine due to dragging his feet) to a Club meeting > so people can see it for the first time and buy it. > > All this supposes that people want to get it right. If they are creating > entertainment "inspired by true facts" then the rules are totally > different. "Pirates" reframed stories of Woz and Bill Fernandez as being > with Woz and Jobs instead to make it less confusing to the public, for > example. "Micro Men" makes the Proton prototype work the second before > the BBC people walked in the door, and not a few hours before like in > real life that wouldn't be as dramatic. > > As long as the spirit of the story remains, I can put up with stuff like > this. Unlike in "The Imitation Game" where a key element of the story is > that nobody involved ever told what they had done even to their spouses > until the UK government itself unclassified it. So to have the "book > ends" of the movie be Alan Turing casually narrating the whole story to > a random policeman is absurdly against the spirit of the story. The > fourth wall thing for the IBM meeting in "Pirates" is another movie > ruining scene for me. > > -- Jecel From steven at malikoff.com Sun May 24 02:24:08 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 17:24:08 +1000 Subject: H960 repo stabiliser feet redux Message-ID: <64242f690957bc6430fde15b36e739ee.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Here's my conclusion to the H960 stabiliser feet thread from a while ago where I was after measurements of the originals. And thanks for all the help from cctalk (especially Noel) who supplied dimensions and photos. I finished these last year but moved on to other projects and hadn't returned to the list to discuss them, so I am doing that now. I made a pair each for my two H960's. The feet consist of welded steel load-bearing frames with a C-profile that fits snugly onto the H960 base, a lower leg from a shelf bracket and a support strut. The leg is located by a steel bolt. The bolt has the head machined to a disc, I was going to turn the taper and machine the slot but I lost the photo of the original bolt that a listmember had posted so I left them at that. They could do with nickel electroplating sometime. The frame is super strong, although I have not physically loaded them to any great extent. The outer end has a threaded adjustable pad the same size (AFAIK) as the originals, which are still available. I found some correct size el-cheapo ones at the hardware store that did the job just fine. The frame is threaded for the pad post and a nut on the pad then locks the pad from turning. The outside aesthetics are taken care of with a 3D printed hollow shell modelled from the measurements of the original casting. It slides onto the leg and is secured by the bolt. The shell CAD model still needs some work to get the fit and front holes right, and a few other things but overall they look fine and obey the 6 foot rule. A few coats of satin black enamel helps hide the print layering a bit. Photo showing the frame (spray finished in silver epoxy primer, what I had at hand), the other frame inside a shell, and some of the test shells: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_01.png As attached to one of the H960s. (I have yet to do the kick panel, may laser cut that sometime): http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_02.png Steve. From useddec at gmail.com Sun May 24 03:03:21 2020 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 03:03:21 -0500 Subject: H960 repo stabiliser feet redux In-Reply-To: <64242f690957bc6430fde15b36e739ee.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <64242f690957bc6430fde15b36e739ee.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Very nice!! On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2:24 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Here's my conclusion to the H960 stabiliser feet thread from a while ago > where I was after measurements of > the originals. And thanks for all the help from cctalk (especially Noel) > who supplied dimensions and photos. > > I finished these last year but moved on to other projects and hadn't > returned to the list to discuss them, > so I am doing that now. I made a pair each for my two H960's. > > The feet consist of welded steel load-bearing frames with a C-profile that > fits snugly onto the H960 > base, a lower leg from a shelf bracket and a support strut. The leg is > located by a steel bolt. The > bolt has the head machined to a disc, I was going to turn the taper and > machine the slot but I lost > the photo of the original bolt that a listmember had posted so I left them > at that. They could do with > nickel electroplating sometime. The frame is super strong, although I have > not physically loaded them > to any great extent. > > The outer end has a threaded adjustable pad the same size (AFAIK) as the > originals, which are still > available. I found some correct size el-cheapo ones at the hardware store > that did the job just fine. > The frame is threaded for the pad post and a nut on the pad then locks the > pad from turning. > > The outside aesthetics are taken care of with a 3D printed hollow shell > modelled from the measurements > of the original casting. It slides onto the leg and is secured by the > bolt. The shell CAD model still > needs some work to get the fit and front holes right, and a few other > things but overall they look > fine and obey the 6 foot rule. A few coats of satin black enamel helps > hide the print layering a bit. > > Photo showing the frame (spray finished in silver epoxy primer, what I had > at hand), the other frame > inside a shell, and some of the test shells: > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_01.png > > As attached to one of the H960s. (I have yet to do the kick panel, may > laser cut that sometime): > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_02.png > > Steve. > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 03:06:48 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:06:48 +0100 Subject: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: In-Reply-To: <5b8263e4-00f1-0232-0585-7931062221a8@alembic.crystel.com> References: <7bc23f5d-aed3-b755-e983-e08512871870@alembic.crystel.com> <8d8f2adb-1630-f2fb-fa2c-d16ced92033d@bitsavers.org> <6ce4c7c2-a461-cdeb-f3da-0f8a134bd725@bitsavers.org> <5b8263e4-00f1-0232-0585-7931062221a8@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <004601d631a2$46acc8c0$d4065a40$@ntlworld.com> To recover a TK50 What I do is run up the machine with the TK50 drive and mount the tape (not foreign), COPY the files to disk. Then I transfer the files to a SIMH machine and COPY them to a virtual tape (again not mounted foreign). Obviously the hard bit is getting a successful read of the TK50 tape. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via > cctalk > Sent: 24 May 2020 02:42 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TK50 cleaning and unloading issues, new thought: > > Ok. Any way to suck data off them to an image file? I have some Vax 8600 > diagnostics, would hate to just toss. > > C > > > On 5/23/2020 9:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/23/20 5:58 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> Tapes are shedding that much > > > > yup, they are garbage. > > > > high probability that you will make the first pass across the tape and > > it will stick when it reverses direction for the second pass > > > > the only TK drive I will even use is the TZ30 1/2 height because it is > > easy to get to the tape path to clean > > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 03:12:10 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:12:10 +0100 Subject: H960 repo stabiliser feet redux In-Reply-To: <64242f690957bc6430fde15b36e739ee.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <64242f690957bc6430fde15b36e739ee.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <004701d631a3$06046570$120d3050$@ntlworld.com> I could do with a pair of those at some point. If anyone has any spare or makes any I would be interested in a pair. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Steve Malikoff via > cctalk > Sent: 24 May 2020 08:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: H960 repo stabiliser feet redux > > Here's my conclusion to the H960 stabiliser feet thread from a while ago where > I was after measurements of the originals. And thanks for all the help from > cctalk (especially Noel) who supplied dimensions and photos. > > I finished these last year but moved on to other projects and hadn't returned to > the list to discuss them, so I am doing that now. I made a pair each for my two > H960's. > > The feet consist of welded steel load-bearing frames with a C-profile that fits > snugly onto the H960 base, a lower leg from a shelf bracket and a support strut. > The leg is located by a steel bolt. The bolt has the head machined to a disc, I > was going to turn the taper and machine the slot but I lost the photo of the > original bolt that a listmember had posted so I left them at that. They could do > with nickel electroplating sometime. The frame is super strong, although I have > not physically loaded them to any great extent. > > The outer end has a threaded adjustable pad the same size (AFAIK) as the > originals, which are still available. I found some correct size el-cheapo ones at > the hardware store that did the job just fine. > The frame is threaded for the pad post and a nut on the pad then locks the pad > from turning. > > The outside aesthetics are taken care of with a 3D printed hollow shell > modelled from the measurements of the original casting. It slides onto the leg > and is secured by the bolt. The shell CAD model still needs some work to get > the fit and front holes right, and a few other things but overall they look fine > and obey the 6 foot rule. A few coats of satin black enamel helps hide the print > layering a bit. > > Photo showing the frame (spray finished in silver epoxy primer, what I had at > hand), the other frame inside a shell, and some of the test shells: > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_01.png > > As attached to one of the H960s. (I have yet to do the kick panel, may laser cut > that sometime): > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_02.png > > Steve. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 03:23:11 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:23:11 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <004801d631a4$9062a5f0$b127f1d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > Sent: 24 May 2020 03:13 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Paul Koning > Subject: Re: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:49 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > The horizontal sync has a frequency of 26.6KHz, active low with > > > > the high voltage 3.7V, Vertical sync is 60Hz. I don't believe that > > > > corresponds to any known standard, does it? > > > > > > I assume it's the same as the Pro video. That might not exactly > > > match standards. But the intensity output is an acceptable 480i > > > monochrome > > video > > > signal. I've fed mine into a video capture device and into a TV > > > display, > > both > > > work. > > Err, no. The Pro (and Rainbow, DECmate II, etc) are TV rate. The horizontal > frequency is 15.57kHz or thereabouts. Those machines will work with TV-rate > video capture devices. > > [...] > > > I have wondered about RGB, the I/O board does output an RGB signal > > along with Intensity, Horizontal Sync and Vertical Sync, but I don't > > know if I could feed that to a monitor that accepts RGB signals as I > > don't know what the voltage levels should be. I have a VR241 which > > seems to have suitable inputs but I don't know if I dare send the > > signals from the I/O board straight to the VR241. I can't find a manual for it. > > Again the VR241 is TV rate. The inputs are, I think, the normal 1V levels into > 75ohms. > > My experience is that sensible over-voltages on monitor inputs (e.g. > 5V TTL signals into 1V analogue inputs) do no damage. It may not work, if it > does it may look terrible, but it won't let the magic smoke out. > Tony, are you aware of any device I could buy or circuit I could build to get a decent image out of it? It doesn't have to be perfect, but at least usable. Thanks Rob > > -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun May 24 04:27:59 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:27:59 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <004801d631a4$9062a5f0$b127f1d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> <004801d631a4$9062a5f0$b127f1d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:23 AM Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Tony, are you aware of any device I could buy or circuit I could build to get a decent image out of it? It doesn't have to be perfect, but at least usable. Unfortunately not. That 26kHz horizontal frequency is the problem... It's not close to any of the PC standards (MDA, CGA, EGA, VGA). Nor television (I even thought of the French System E 819 line, but that's around 20kHz). And those are the common standards. I think you options are either to try to modify VGA monitor to scan a little slower, to design some kind of standards converter (which is a lot of work!) or to make a new flyback transformer. The last would be what I would look into, if only because it keeps the machine original. You would probably have to vacuum-impregnate the windings to prevent flashover, but the model internal combustion engine crowd make their own ignition coils and manage to do things like that. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 24 04:56:36 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:56:36 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> <004801d631a4$9062a5f0$b127f1d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <06a001d631b1$9d54a170$d7fde450$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tony Duell via > cctalk > Sent: 24 May 2020 10:28 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:23 AM Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > > Tony, are you aware of any device I could buy or circuit I could build to get a > decent image out of it? It doesn't have to be perfect, but at least usable. > > Unfortunately not. That 26kHz horizontal frequency is the problem... > > It's not close to any of the PC standards (MDA, CGA, EGA, VGA). Nor > television (I even thought of the French System E 819 line, but that's around > 20kHz). And those are the common standards. > The only think I found was a reference to the IBM 3179G. > I think you options are either to try to modify VGA monitor to scan a little > slower, to design some kind of standards converter (which is a lot of work!) If the output is digital, would it be possible to build an FPGA scan converter to go to VGA? Is the output always 26Khz? > or to make a new flyback transformer. The last would be what I would look > into, if only because it keeps the machine original > You would probably have to vacuum-impregnate the windings to prevent > flashover, but the model internal combustion engine crowd make their own > ignition coils and manage to do things like that. Sounds harder to me than an FPGA scan converter... > > -tony Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 05:46:52 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:46:52 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <06a001d631b1$9d54a170$d7fde450$@gmail.com> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> <004801d631a4$9062a5f0$b127f1d0$@ntlworld.com> <06a001d631b1$9d54a170$d7fde450$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004e01d631b8$a2d28f20$e877ad60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Dave Wade via > cctalk > Sent: 24 May 2020 10:57 > To: 'Tony Duell' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > via cctalk > > Sent: 24 May 2020 10:28 > > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:23 AM Rob Jarratt > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Tony, are you aware of any device I could buy or circuit I could > > > build to get a > > decent image out of it? It doesn't have to be perfect, but at least usable. > > > > Unfortunately not. That 26kHz horizontal frequency is the problem... > > > > It's not close to any of the PC standards (MDA, CGA, EGA, VGA). Nor > > television (I even thought of the French System E 819 line, but that's > > around 20kHz). And those are the common standards. > > > > The only think I found was a reference to the IBM 3179G. > > > I think you options are either to try to modify VGA monitor to scan a > > little slower, to design some kind of standards converter (which is a > > lot of work!) > > If the output is digital, would it be possible to build an FPGA scan converter to > go to VGA? > Is the output always 26Khz? The horizontal sync is 26KHz, yes. Maybe an FPGA could do it.... I would definitely prefer a replacement flyback, but really no idea how to go about building one. > > > or to make a new flyback transformer. The last would be what I would > > look into, if only because it keeps the machine original You would > > probably have to vacuum-impregnate the windings to prevent flashover, > > but the model internal combustion engine crowd make their own ignition > > coils and manage to do things like that. > > Sounds harder to me than an FPGA scan converter... > > > > > -tony > > Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 05:47:51 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:47:51 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <9D0E53E3-11E4-424F-A171-D6F6D07316D8@comcast.net> <004c01d6314c$0a5a8bb0$1f0fa310$@ntlworld.com> <004801d631a4$9062a5f0$b127f1d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <004f01d631b8$c5ea04c0$51be0e40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > Sent: 24 May 2020 10:28 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; > Paul Koning > Subject: Re: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:23 AM Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > > Tony, are you aware of any device I could buy or circuit I could build to get a > decent image out of it? It doesn't have to be perfect, but at least usable. > > Unfortunately not. That 26kHz horizontal frequency is the problem... > > It's not close to any of the PC standards (MDA, CGA, EGA, VGA). Nor television > (I even thought of the French System E 819 line, but that's around 20kHz). And > those are the common standards. > > I think you options are either to try to modify VGA monitor to scan a little > slower, to design some kind of standards converter (which is a lot of work!) or > to make a new flyback transformer. The last would be what I would look into, if > only because it keeps the machine original. > You would probably have to vacuum-impregnate the windings to prevent > flashover, but the model internal combustion engine crowd make their own > ignition coils and manage to do things like that. Everything I have ever heard would suggest that making my own flyback is the hardest option and well nigh impossible without expensive industrial equipment. If there was a way I would certainly look into it. I have no idea where to begin, but if anyone on this list has any pointers? > > -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Sun May 24 08:30:52 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:30:52 -0400 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort In-Reply-To: <109664C2-1E3F-44A1-892D-9135EDB12C8F@snowmoose.com> References: <109664C2-1E3F-44A1-892D-9135EDB12C8F@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 2020-05-23 21:35, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Anyone here know of a SVGA-to-HDMI (or DisplayPort) adapter that a 13W3-to-SVGA adapter > so I can connect my Sun frame buffers to a HDMI display? I am hoping someone here has already figured this one out. SVGA should be possible, but Sun Frame Buffer? Which ones are you talking about? Resolution? Framerate? From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun May 24 10:16:10 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:16:10 -0700 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65642CF1-40DA-4CE6-AB25-08C084CB4C0D@snowmoose.com> > On May 24, 2020, at 06:31, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 2020-05-23 21:35, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone here know of a SVGA-to-HDMI (or DisplayPort) adapter that a 13W3-to-SVGA adapter >> so I can connect my Sun frame buffers to a HDMI display? I am hoping someone here has already figured this one out. > > SVGA should be possible, but Sun Frame Buffer? Which ones are you > talking about? > > Resolution? Framerate? Which frame buffers? The typical cg3 cg6 with 13W3. Resolution? Framerate? Don?t care as long as it displays. Every flat panel display with a SVGA connector that I have had has worked with my 13W3-to-SVGA adapters. I have seen adapters that do the SVGA to HDMI part. I am asking if someone else here has figured out which one(s) work in this application. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun May 24 10:17:20 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:17:20 -0400 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On 5/24/20 2:28 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > Either way, changing it from IBM not wanting to deal with DR into Bill > Gates cold calling IBM to tell them "what an operating system is" is > totally invalidating, marginalizing, and misrepresenting a significant > aspect of the microcomputer culture, and the people who made it.? (AND > is ridiculously insulting to the IBM culture to state that they didn't > know what an operating system is!) > Even more-so in todays light when you realize that IBM was doing Virtualization in the 70's. bill From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun May 24 10:20:11 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:20:11 -0400 Subject: Early Nubus history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 07:07:52 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Early Nubus history > > Did anyone ever do any research into the early history of Nubus, wrt > Western Digital, TI or Steve Ward/MIT/Numachine? > I was a member of the IEEE-1196 committee that wrote the NuBus standard and IEEE-1101 committee that wrote the mechanical standard for the NuBus. Eike Waltz and I did a lot of the mechanical standards work. The members of the IEEE-1196 committee were George White (Chairman) R. Gordon Cook, Mark Garetz(CompuPro and IEEE-696), Richard Greenblatt(MIT AI Lab, LMI Founder), Ron Hochsprung(Apple), Richard Kalish, Rikki Kirzner( Dataquest), Gerry Laws(TI), Rae Mclellan(Bell Labs), Gregory Papadopoulos(MIT), Dan Schneider, Dave Stewart, Michael Thompson(me), Jim Truchard(Founder National Instruments), Eike Waltz, *Steve Ward*(MIT), and Fritz Whittington. George White went from MIT->Computer Automation->Western Digital->TI->Corollary->Intel. Corollary's cache technology was licensed by DEC and many others. My memories of this committee are a little vague after 40 years, other than being very impressed with the other members. I will see if I kept any notes from the meetings. -- Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 24 10:34:16 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:34:16 -0700 Subject: Early Nubus history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1aa5deef-5263-19c8-1271-e13d1360be2e@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/20 8:20 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Ron Hochsprung(Apple) Ron was the senior engineer working on the Mac II with Mike Dewey. With 20/20 hindsight, the DIN connector should have been on the far end from the I/O fence on the Mac form-factor Nubus. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 24 10:39:14 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:39:14 -0700 Subject: Early Nubus history In-Reply-To: <1aa5deef-5263-19c8-1271-e13d1360be2e@bitsavers.org> References: <1aa5deef-5263-19c8-1271-e13d1360be2e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/24/20 8:34 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/24/20 8:20 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ?Ron Hochsprung(Apple) > > Ron was the senior engineer working on the Mac II > with Mike Dewey. With 20/20 hindsight, the DIN connector > should have been on the far end from the I/O fence > on the Mac form-factor Nubus. > The issue was it was very crowded on the right side of the card when doing board layout with the nubus and I/O there. But then, you couldn't have built short-length cards later. I'd have to dig out my spec to see if those were even standard compliant. NeXT pushed for the double-clock edge version of the bus. I think block mode happened around then as well. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 24 10:40:46 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:40:46 -0700 Subject: Early Nubus history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29ac8fe5-2073-dc7d-7b2b-6e225c1cf1aa@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/20 8:20 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >> > George White went from MIT->Computer Automation->Western > Digital->TI->Corollary->Intel. Corollary's cache technology was licensed by > DEC and many others. So George would have been person connecting MIT WD and TI .. From macro at linux-mips.org Sun May 24 10:56:47 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:56:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: 2.11bsd unix resolver In-Reply-To: <5ec73c2f.1c69fb81.4206a.9aed@mx.google.com> References: <5ec73c2f.1c69fb81.4206a.9aed@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 May 2020, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: > On Solaris it?s the ?hosts? line in the /etc/nsswitch.conf/ file. Having /etc/nsswitch.conf was actually Solaris's invention and Solaris itself came from System V rather than BSD. It was only adopted by the freely available *BSD systems much later. > Perhaps something similar in BSD. Ultrix as a sole notable exception had /etc/svc.conf, and anyway with a BSD version as early as 2.11 I'd expect the resolver's sequence of queries to be hardcoded. Perhaps the source of the problem is something as silly as the use of + as line endings in /etc/hosts, causing the entry for 127.0.0.1 to correspond to `localhost^M' rather than expected `localhost' (a common and confusing issue with shebang scripts imported or transmitted over FTP in the binary rather than text mode from a foreign system causing an error like: $ ./myscript.sh ./myscript.sh: No such file or directory $ ls -l ./myscript.sh -rwxr-xr-x 1 macro macro 251 Jan 1 1970 ./myscript.sh $ head -1 ./myscript.sh #!/bin/sh $ # Hmm... $ )? For the record older versions of Linux (up to libc 5), including a.out ones in particular, used /etc/host.conf to configure the resolver. Maciej From rob_j37 at hotmail.com Sun May 24 11:00:19 2020 From: rob_j37 at hotmail.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:00:19 +0000 Subject: DECstation 220/Olivetti M250E Documentation Message-ID: I have a DECstation 220 (an Olivetti M250E under the covers) that needs repair. I have a pocket service guide, but I have not found any other documentation. Is there any? Thanks Rob From js at cimmeri.com Sun May 24 11:21:21 2020 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:21:21 -0500 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5ECA9F01.9010906@cimmeri.com> On 5/23/2020 8:45 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > As it looks like I am not going to be able to repair the monitor board for > my VAXmate I am wondering if I can do anything with the outputs from the I/O > board to drive an external monitor instead. > > ... > > I had a go at building this > http://www.dasarodesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pet-composite-video- > adapter.jpg feeding its output to a composite to VGA device to see if it > would convert it to VGA, but no luck. > > Any ideas? For starters, try a Viewsonic VP-150. Syncs horizontally from 24-61khz. I use these or a few other monitors for syncing to odd DEC or HP systems. - John Singleton From alan at alanlee.org Sun May 24 11:29:41 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 12:29:41 -0400 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort In-Reply-To: <65642CF1-40DA-4CE6-AB25-08C084CB4C0D@snowmoose.com> References: <65642CF1-40DA-4CE6-AB25-08C084CB4C0D@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: I've had the opposite experience. I've been trying to find a 1U pull-out keyboard/monitor/mouse combo for my E6500 rack. Most of the VGA LCD panels complain about signal out of range on both cg3 and cg6. The E6500 really doesn't need a video console, but it'd be nice if one was tucked in there. Of course the weirdo Sun mounting rails in the cabinet are yet another challenge. -A On 2020-05-24 11:16, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Every flat panel display with a SVGA connector that I have had has > worked with my 13W3-to-SVGA adapters. I have seen adapters that do the > SVGA to HDMI part. I am asking if someone else here has figured out > which one(s) work in this application. From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun May 24 11:53:22 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:53:22 -0700 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort In-Reply-To: References: <65642CF1-40DA-4CE6-AB25-08C084CB4C0D@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <43ef2f0a-2b39-5dec-b53c-e76d1f59aef4@snowmoose.com> When I first started trying to use VGA LCD panels with my Suns (mostly lunchbox systems, all 4c and 4m desktops), I heard there could be a problem like that and stuck with a particular model Samsung that worked. Then I tried another one and it worked. And another. And another. I haven't encountered one (out of half a dozen) that didn't work. alanp On 5/24/20 9:29 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > I've had the opposite experience.? I've been trying to find a 1U > pull-out keyboard/monitor/mouse combo for my E6500 rack.? Most of the > VGA LCD panels complain about signal out of range on both cg3 and cg6. > The E6500 really doesn't need a video console, but it'd be nice if one > was tucked in there.? Of course the weirdo Sun mounting rails in the > cabinet are yet another challenge. > > -A > > On 2020-05-24 11:16, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > >> Every flat panel display with a SVGA connector that I have had has >> worked with my 13W3-to-SVGA adapters. I have seen adapters that do the >> SVGA to HDMI part. I am asking if someone else here has figured out >> which one(s) work in this application. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 24 12:04:01 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:04:01 -0400 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > ... IBM was doing > Virtualization in the 70's. 1968 and probably before.[1] Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people think. --T [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS [2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems > > bill > From t.gardner at computer.org Sun May 24 12:49:17 2020 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:49:17 -0700 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <000001d631f3$a5c6c710$f1545530$@computer.org> Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] wrote on Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:28 PM Some don't matter; some can be enough to ruin a good anecdote; some create a different story. I'm saddened that Jim Adkisson and Don Massaro of Shugart have changed their story and now deny that the size of the 5.25" disk was based on Dr. Wang pointing to a bar napkin. The "Bar Napkin Disk" was a GREAT anecdote; now ruined. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/05/102657925-0 5-01-acc.pdf It's probably OK for Fred to be saddened at the demise of a good story but isn't it better to have the true story? Neither Jim Adkisson nor Don Massaro of Shugart ever promulgated the urban legend of Dr. Wang and the napkin in the bar - as near as I can tell it was invented from whole cloth by Jim Porter who repeated it so many times that it became legend. The final media size was determined by Shugart Engineering led by Al Chou from the size of the 8-track tape drive that the 5?-inch FDD was to replace in Wang and other systems. As near as I can tell it was not the same size as a ?standard? cocktail napkin. The idea for a smaller FDD with cocktail napkin sized medium did come through Adkisson but it originated at his customers such as Lanier, Phillips and Varisyst among others before it was taken to Wang. History is hard - I researched this for the Computer History Museum and prevented the legend from making it into their exhibits. Tom From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun May 24 12:58:39 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:58:39 -0400 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On 5/24/20 1:04 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> ... IBM was doing >> Virtualization in the 70's. > > 1968 and probably before.[1] > > Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people think. > > --T > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS > [2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems > >> >> bill >> > I only picked 70's because I used VM370 on a 4331 in 1980 and it was a mature product already then. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 24 13:23:00 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: <000001d631f3$a5c6c710$f1545530$@computer.org> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <000001d631f3$a5c6c710$f1545530$@computer.org> Message-ID: > Some don't matter; some can be enough to ruin a good anecdote; some create > a different story. > > I'm saddened that Jim Adkisson and Don Massaro of Shugart have changed > their story and now deny that the size of the 5.25" disk was based on Dr. > Wang pointing to a bar napkin. The "Bar Napkin Disk" was a GREAT > anecdote; now ruined. > 05-01-acc.pdf> On Sun, 24 May 2020, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > It's probably OK for Fred to be saddened at the demise of a good story but > isn't it better to have the true story? "better", yes. but still sadder > Neither Jim Adkisson nor Don Massaro of Shugart ever promulgated the urban > legend of Dr. Wang and the napkin in the bar - as near as I can tell it was > invented from whole cloth by Jim Porter who repeated it so many times that > it became legend. I read it in one of the popular magaazines decades ago. > The final media size was determined by Shugart Engineering led by Al Chou > from the size of the 8-track tape drive that the 5?-inch FDD was to replace > in Wang and other systems. As near as I can tell it was not the same size > as a ?standard? cocktail napkin. "standard"??!? "I believe in standards. Everyone should have [a unique] one [of their own]." - George Morrow I have seen napkins that are about 5.25". I wanted to track down which bar, and get napkins from them. And/or get napkins commercially printed (and give them a supply) with the bar personalization on one side, and an outline picture of a 5.25" disk jacket and the story on the other. optional signatures of those involved, and provide to CHM to sell in the giftshop. > The idea for a smaller FDD with cocktail napkin sized medium did come > through Adkisson but it originated at his customers such as Lanier, > Phillips and Varisyst among others before it was taken to Wang. > History is hard - I researched this for the Computer History Museum and > prevented the legend from making it into their exhibits. I have to thank you for debunking a cherished legend. Myths and legends can be nice, even if they have to be disproven. Even nonexistent characters can be handy, such as Santa Claus and \newline -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 24 14:20:41 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:20:41 -0600 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020, 11:04 AM Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > ... IBM was doing > > Virtualization in the 70's. > > 1968 and probably before.[1] > > Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people think. > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The second Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. Warner --T > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS > [2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems > > > > > bill > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 14:48:52 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 20:48:52 +0100 Subject: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate In-Reply-To: <5ECA9F01.9010906@cimmeri.com> References: <002701d63108$76197e90$624c7bb0$@ntlworld.com> <5ECA9F01.9010906@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <007901d63204$5ad031e0$107095a0$@ntlworld.com> I have a Viewsonic VA912 which has worked well for me before in other circumstances, but doesn't go down to 26KHz. I can't find a VP150 on ebay or amazon at the moment, but I will keep a look out and see if there are any others with a lower horizontal frequency too. Looks like a VX715 might do the trick and I have found one of those! From: js at cimmeri.com Sent: 24 May 2020 17:21 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Alternative Monitor for VAXmate On 5/23/2020 8:45 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: As it looks like I am not going to be able to repair the monitor board for my VAXmate I am wondering if I can do anything with the outputs from the I/O board to drive an external monitor instead. ... I had a go at building this http://www.dasarodesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/pet-composite-video- adapter.jpg feeding its output to a composite to VGA device to see if it would convert it to VGA, but no luck. Any ideas? For starters, try a Viewsonic VP-150. Syncs horizontally from 24-61khz. I use these or a few other monitors for syncing to odd DEC or HP systems. - John Singleton From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 14:53:00 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 20:53:00 +0100 Subject: DECstation 220/Olivetti M250E Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/05/2020 17:00, Robert Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have a DECstation 220 (an Olivetti M250E under the covers) that needs repair. I have a pocket service guide, but I have not found any other documentation. Is there any? > > Thanks > > Rob I'm *sure* I've got some DECstation 220 manuals, but (a) I can't find them right now and (b) they're only user manuals. When I come across them, I'll send you an email. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 24 15:01:21 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:01:21 -0400 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <31c64aca-7cfa-31e4-7bdc-8d067e7146a3@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-05-24 3:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 11:04 AM Toby Thain via cctalk > > wrote: > > On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > ... IBM was doing > > Virtualization in the 70's. > > 1968 and probably before.[1] > > Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people think. > > > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The > second Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. I thought the Interdata port was second? --T > > Warner > > > --T > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS > [2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems > > > > > bill > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 24 15:06:16 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:06:16 -0700 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <2c5fe6d8-eeb9-0368-ede5-77545f3efbbc@sydex.com> On 5/24/20 10:04 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> ... IBM was doing >> Virtualization in the 70's. > > 1968 and probably before.[1] Don't forget Peter Denning! --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 24 15:13:50 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 14:13:50 -0600 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <31c64aca-7cfa-31e4-7bdc-8d067e7146a3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <31c64aca-7cfa-31e4-7bdc-8d067e7146a3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2:01 PM Toby Thain wrote: > On 2020-05-24 3:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 11:04 AM Toby Thain via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > ... IBM was doing > > > Virtualization in the 70's. > > > > 1968 and probably before.[1] > > > > Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people think. > > > > > > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The > > second Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. > > I thought the Interdata port was second? > Wollongong to the interdata 7/32 was April of 77. Went into production July 77. Bell Labs to the closely related interdata 8/32 was June of 77. Never went into production, but portability fixes plowed back into V7. Tom Lyons had his booting to a similar level around May of 77 ("end of his junior year"), though he wasn't hired by Amdahl unti the following summer and he reports having the full V6 up early in 1979. V7 up later in the year when they got it from AT&T. I kinda lump the two interdata ports together as 'the first' and I don't have good dates for when Tom Lyons booted beyond hello-world, or what the benchmark for 'first' should be. Warner --T > > > > > Warner > > > > > > --T > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS > > [2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 24 15:48:21 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 21:48:21 +0100 Subject: DECstation 220/Olivetti M250E Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008001d6320c$a920be20$fb623a60$@ntlworld.com> Hello Antonio, I have a couple of user manuals too, I am not sure they are going to help much. I am thinking more like technical documentation, if any exists. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini via > cctalk > Sent: 24 May 2020 20:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DECstation 220/Olivetti M250E Documentation > > On 24/05/2020 17:00, Robert Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have a DECstation 220 (an Olivetti M250E under the covers) that needs > repair. I have a pocket service guide, but I have not found any other > documentation. Is there any? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > I'm *sure* I've got some DECstation 220 manuals, but (a) I can't find them right > now and (b) they're only user manuals. > > When I come across them, I'll send you an email. > > > Antonio > > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com From cruff at ruffspot.net Sun May 24 12:48:29 2020 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:48:29 -0600 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just bought an Extron RGB-HDMI 300 (A) that handles VGA and other RGB type signals and has HDMI output. I've connected it to my VAXstation 4000/60 (very successfully), and my IIgs (reasonable but this is at the low end of what the unit can manage). Output on either my Sony 46" TV or Apple 1600x1050 monitor. Found one (pull from service) at surpluscrestron.com for $53 shipped. It didn't come with the power supply (12 V @ 1 A) and needed this connector (https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/molex/0395000002/WM7732-ND/1280583) to attach the power supply. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 24 16:06:26 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 22:06:26 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 13:20:41 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 11:04 AM Toby Thain via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> > ... IBM was doing >> > Virtualization in the 70's. >> >> 1968 and probably before.[1] >> >> Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people think. >> > > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The second > Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. > What do you mean by "Unix had virtualization"? Come to think of it, what do you mean by "OS/360's VM"? Regards, Peter Coghlan > > Warner > > > --T >> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS >> [2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems >> >> > >> > bill >> > >> >> From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 24 16:18:34 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 15:18:34 -0600 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 3:14 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 13:20:41 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 11:04 AM Toby Thain via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> > ... IBM was doing > >> > Virtualization in the 70's. > >> > >> 1968 and probably before.[1] > >> > >> Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people think. > >> > > > > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The > second > > Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. > > > > What do you mean by "Unix had virtualization"? > I mean that 4th edition UNIX ran under a hypervisor in MERT in 74 as a process in that real-time executive. > Come to think of it, what do you mean by "OS/360's VM"? > IBM's standard VM/360. Sorry for the confusion. That will teach me to reply on my phone... Warner > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > > > > > Warner > > > > > > --T > >> > >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS > >> [2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems > >> > >> > > >> > bill > >> > > >> > >> > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 24 16:30:42 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 22:30:42 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 15:18:34 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> > >> > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The >> second >> > Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. >> > >> >> What do you mean by "Unix had virtualization"? >> > > I mean that 4th edition UNIX ran under a hypervisor in MERT in 74 as a > process in that real-time executive. > Oh. I thought maybe you meant Unix was able to do virtualization. What's special about being able to run under a hypervisor? If the hypervisor does it's job right, whatever is running under it should not be aware that it is not running directly on hardware. > >> Come to think of it, what do you mean by "OS/360's VM"? >> > > IBM's standard VM/360. Sorry for the confusion. > CP/67 or something like that maybe? I don't think there was a VM/360 either. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > That will teach me to reply on my phone... > > Warner > > >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan >> From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 24 16:49:52 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 22:49:52 +0100 Subject: DECstation 220/Olivetti M250E Documentation In-Reply-To: <008001d6320c$a920be20$fb623a60$@ntlworld.com> References: <008001d6320c$a920be20$fb623a60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <023b01d63215$415108a0$c3f319e0$@gmail.com> Rob, I have what is laughingly labelled as a "Field Engineering Library - M250 Service Manual" but its actually almost totally devoid of any technical information. Not sure what the difference between the M250 and M250E is but looking at the pocket guide they are very similar. In fact the pocket guide seems to have more technical information than the service guide :-( I have no idea from whence it came, but if you would like it I can either pop it in the post to you, or you can arrange to do your exercise near me and collect. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 24 May 2020 21:48 > To: antonio at acarlini.com; 'Antonio Carlini' ; > 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DECstation 220/Olivetti M250E Documentation > > Hello Antonio, > > I have a couple of user manuals too, I am not sure they are going to help > much. I am thinking more like technical documentation, if any exists. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Antonio > > Carlini via cctalk > > Sent: 24 May 2020 20:53 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: DECstation 220/Olivetti M250E Documentation > > > > On 24/05/2020 17:00, Robert Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a DECstation 220 (an Olivetti M250E under the covers) that > > > needs > > repair. I have a pocket service guide, but I have not found any other > > documentation. Is there any? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > I'm *sure* I've got some DECstation 220 manuals, but (a) I can't find > > them right now and (b) they're only user manuals. > > > > When I come across them, I'll send you an email. > > > > > > Antonio > > > > > > > > -- > > Antonio Carlini > > antonio at acarlini.com From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 24 17:04:24 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:04:24 -0600 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 3:47 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 15:18:34 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The > >> second > >> > Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. > >> > > >> > >> What do you mean by "Unix had virtualization"? > >> > > > > I mean that 4th edition UNIX ran under a hypervisor in MERT in 74 as a > > process in that real-time executive. > > > > Oh. I thought maybe you meant Unix was able to do virtualization. > > What's special about being able to run under a hypervisor? If the > hypervisor does it's job right, whatever is running under it should > not be aware that it is not running directly on hardware. > MERT was more a real-time executive than a hypervisor, so there was some work needed to port UNIX to run as a process in MERT. The port was the unix kernel, so that programs could have a UNIX API. It wasn't a pure hypervisor, though, since a number of changes were required to Unix itself to cope with running in what we'd likely call a paravirtualized environment. >> Come to think of it, what do you mean by "OS/360's VM"? > >> > > > > IBM's standard VM/360. Sorry for the confusion. > > > > CP/67 or something like that maybe? I don't think there was a VM/360 > either. > Sorry, it was VM/370, so the successor to CP/67 with virtual memory added. https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart2/ Warner From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 24 17:21:05 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 18:21:05 -0400 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <31c64aca-7cfa-31e4-7bdc-8d067e7146a3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2020-05-24 4:13 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2:01 PM Toby Thain > wrote: > > On 2020-05-24 3:20 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 11:04 AM Toby Thain via cctalk > > > >> wrote: > > > >? ? ?On 2020-05-24 11:17 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >? ? ?> ... IBM was doing > >? ? ?> Virtualization in the 70's. > > > >? ? ?1968 and probably before.[1] > > > >? ? ?Most operating systems concepts[2] are much older than people > think. > > > > > > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The > > second Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. > > I thought the Interdata port was second? > > > Wollongong to the interdata?7/32 was April of 77. Went into production > July 77. > Bell Labs to the closely related interdata 8/32 was June of 77. Never > went into?production, but portability fixes plowed back into V7. > Tom Lyons had his booting to a similar level around May of 77 ("end of > his junior year"), though he wasn't hired by Amdahl unti the following > summer and he reports having the full V6 up early in 1979. V7 up later > in the year when they got it from AT&T. > > I kinda lump the two interdata ports together as 'the first' and I don't > have good dates for when Tom Lyons booted beyond hello-world, or what > the benchmark for 'first' should be. Thanks for the detail! I meant "second after PDP-11" so the confusion was only an off-by-one error. --Toby > > Warner > > --T > > > > > Warner > > > > > >? ? ?--T > > > >? ? ?[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_CP/CMS > >? ? ?[2] e.g. ref: Per Brinch Hansen, Classic Operating Systems > > > >? ? ?> > >? ? ?> bill > >? ? ?> > > > From sales at elecplus.com Sun May 24 18:06:24 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 18:06:24 -0500 Subject: The massive effort to rebuild an LK201 Message-ID: <005d01d6321f$f2f53720$d8dfa560$@com> Yes, I know this will never again be used on a terminal, but the lengths to which he went are extraordinary to me! https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7 &t=23965 He could have bought several new in box LK201, with terminals, for what he spent on this project! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun May 24 18:24:31 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 19:24:31 -0400 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 5/24/20 5:30 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > CP/67 or something like that maybe? I don't think there was a VM/360 either. > There was VM/370 in 1980. I worked under it from May to August. Hosted on a 4331 at Ft. Ben Harrison, IN. The launch of the Mainframe and COBOL facet of my career and life. bill From jecel at merlintec.com Sun May 24 19:16:17 2020 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 21:16:17 -0300 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Fred, > To me, the culture clash aspect makes it one of the greatest stories of > the time. > Was Gary not taking the meeting seriously enough to be there on time, and > as a consequence, ending up being $80B behind Bill Gates, the stupidest > mistake anybody has ever made? > Or the bravest thing that anybody has ever done to stand up to them and > put refusal to be subservient ahead of the money by deciding that the men > from IBM did not deserve different treatment than other customers? The only world I can imagine where Bill wouldn't be orders of magnitude richer than Gary would be one where they were equal partners in a single company (with Gary either instead of, or in addition to, Paul Allen). The difference in their personalities was a far larger factor in the results than any particular event, though having a single moment be "pivotal" is better drama. What I have heard about the "Gary was away flying" story was that he used his small private plane to travel to business meetings. The airport was open for instrument traffic (like what the IBM folks were arriving in) but not for visual traffic (like Gary coming back from his previous meeting) so there was no way for him not to be late. Given that Bill Gates had called him to say he was sending some important people (but he didn't say who) that he should treat well, he must have been in his office earlier since this was the era of land lines. He could have then cancelled his previously scheduled meeting to make sure he would be present for this one even if normally there would be plenty of time to come back. But he had no clue who was coming. We know who it was and what it meant but it is not fair for us to pan his decision based on what he knew. In any case he did get the contract. When the IBM PC came out Byte magazine called it the Rosetta Stone of computing: https://tech-insider.org/personal-computers/research/acrobat/8201.pdf We know that CP/M86's $240 price made it lose big time against the $60 PC-DOS (prices from memory and could be very wrong) but at that time there were people betting on a different result. The first network operating system in Brazil (NetMB), for example, was compatible with CP/M86. Only in its third version did it add MS-DOS compatibility as by 1985/1986 the OS war was over (and the UCSD system mentioned in the January 1982 Byte lost by a huge margin to even QNX and others). It is funny that the DOS-only era was followed by Windows, Linux, BeOS and eventually even MacOS as options of the PC making the original prophecy come true. -- Jecel From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 24 20:31:42 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 18:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: Quite true that Gary did not have the ruthless personality to compete. If the roles had been reversed, Gary would NOT have become a bill Gates. Yes, the final outcome was inevitable, although the one incident set the path. It is fairly commonly believed that MS-DOS would not have EXISTED without the DR/IBM incompatability. Would Microsoft have gotten into operating systems LATER? Eventually. Probably. But probably not for years. For instance Microsoft Xenix would probably not have happened if they hadn't already been doing MS-DOS. I maintain that IF IBM and DR had hit it off, that CP/M-86 would have been cheaper, and available at the time of the release of the PC, or at least VERY soon after. I have heard (unsubstantiated) that IBM did not give DR any units of hardware to develop on (they DID provide Microsoft with some hardware), so there was very little work on CP/M-86 for the PC until August 1981 when the PC was released to the public. It is not clear whether IBM marketing of CP/M-86 was agreed to before finalizing the PC-DOS decisions,or whether it was added on as an alternative LATER. UCSD P-System was ALSO added as an alternative. There are unconfirmed rumors that IBM had not intended to also provide CP/M-86, but that DR screamed until they agreed. The similarities in the operating systems were enough that DR could have had a legal case (even before current "look and feel" precedents), but Gary was not into legal battles, and being sold IN ADDITION was good enough for him. IBM had nothing to lose by offering other Operating Systems as alternatives. My recollection (not reliable) was that PC-DOS was originally $40, and then went up to $60 with version 1.10 or 2.00. (Is that right?) There are also conflicting stories about WHO set the price, and HOW; even a conspiracy theory that IBM chose the $240 price to hinder CP/M-86 competition. But, $240 was not grossly out of line in those days, so it very well could have been set by DR, in which case, THAT was a substantial mistake. At $40 for PC-DOS and $60 or even $80 for CP/M-86, there would have been a better chance to compete, but not at $240. Nevertheless, in August 1981, when the PC came out, PC-DOS was ready (due to IBM and Microsoft working with each other?), and CP/M-86 was announced as "coming soon". Of course CP/M-86 "coming soon" but not being ready YET, MUCH earlier, was why Tim Paterson had written 86-DOS/QDOS. It was largely intended as a place holder and temporary substitute to be able to work on the rest of the projects UNTIL CP/M-86 was completed and available. MANY people (not all) thought that CP/M-86 would still become the primary operating system, in spite of the price differential. BUT, "PC-DOS is so cheap, that I'll buy a copy of it to use and work on my programs, UNTIL CP/M-86 comes out and BECOMES the dominant one." I did. By the time that CP/M-86 finally did come out, there was an enormous installed base of PC-DOS. "Are you going to sell software to THEM?" I did. "or wait until CP/M-86 catches up?" Soon there was also an enormous installed base of PC-DOS software. As I mentioned before, porting to it was pretty easy. "I'll sell my program on PC-DOS. WHEN (and if) CP/M-86 catches up, THEN I'll sell it on that." Soon, it was too late for CP/M-86 to catch up. A plane is real handy for going to business meetings. And, is tax deductible because of that, even if it is primarily a recreational activity and hobby, and the "business meetings" consist of going to hang out with friends. It has been stated that the meeting in question was with Bill Godbout, whose business was housed in the north buildings of the Oakland Airport, along with Mike Quinn, etc. Godbout was a valid business contact (Compupro) as well as a personal friend, and Gary often flew up to visit him. At the time, there was a minor corruption of the story, that Gary had gone off to sail his boat. It has been reasonably established that it was a short flight to Oakland. I personally think that Gary's attitude was that the money (not clear AT THE TIME how much) was not important enough to let IBM push him around. He was a competnet businessman, but not ruthless. BTW, once Microsoft started work, IBM insisted on upgraded security and locks. For a while, it was referred to as "Project Commodore" as a red herring for any leaks. I only knew a few people at Microsoft; met Bill Gates a couple of times, but he would have no reason to remember me; and met Gary a couple of times, but he would have had no reason to remember me (other than as one of the many pre-PC jerks who tried to convince him to standardize 5.25 inch disk formats - his response: "The standard disk format for CP/M remains 8 inch Single Sided Single Density"). So, my opinions are speculation based on third hand perception of the elephant's tail. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Sun, 24 May 2020, Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctalk wrote: > Fred, > >> To me, the culture clash aspect makes it one of the greatest stories of >> the time. >> Was Gary not taking the meeting seriously enough to be there on time, and >> as a consequence, ending up being $80B behind Bill Gates, the stupidest >> mistake anybody has ever made? >> Or the bravest thing that anybody has ever done to stand up to them and >> put refusal to be subservient ahead of the money by deciding that the men >> from IBM did not deserve different treatment than other customers? > > The only world I can imagine where Bill wouldn't be orders of magnitude > richer than Gary would be one where they were equal partners in a single > company (with Gary either instead of, or in addition to, Paul Allen). > The difference in their personalities was a far larger factor in the > results than any particular event, though having a single moment be > "pivotal" is better drama. > > What I have heard about the "Gary was away flying" story was that he > used his small private plane to travel to business meetings. The airport > was open for instrument traffic (like what the IBM folks were arriving > in) but not for visual traffic (like Gary coming back from his previous > meeting) so there was no way for him not to be late. > > Given that Bill Gates had called him to say he was sending some > important people (but he didn't say who) that he should treat well, he > must have been in his office earlier since this was the era of land > lines. He could have then cancelled his previously scheduled meeting to > make sure he would be present for this one even if normally there would > be plenty of time to come back. But he had no clue who was coming. We > know who it was and what it meant but it is not fair for us to pan his > decision based on what he knew. > > In any case he did get the contract. When the IBM PC came out Byte > magazine called it the Rosetta Stone of computing: > https://tech-insider.org/personal-computers/research/acrobat/8201.pdf > > We know that CP/M86's $240 price made it lose big time against the $60 > PC-DOS (prices from memory and could be very wrong) but at that time > there were people betting on a different result. The first network > operating system in Brazil (NetMB), for example, was compatible with > CP/M86. Only in its third version did it add MS-DOS compatibility as by > 1985/1986 the OS war was over (and the UCSD system mentioned in the > January 1982 Byte lost by a huge margin to even QNX and others). It is > funny that the DOS-only era was followed by Windows, Linux, BeOS and > eventually even MacOS as options of the PC making the original prophecy > come true. > > -- Jecel > From jecel at merlintec.com Sun May 24 21:32:34 2020 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 23:32:34 -0300 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <20200525023240.4EA0D8C07F9@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Fred, > Quite true that Gary did not have the ruthless personality to compete. > If the roles had been reversed, Gary would NOT have become a bill Gates. > Yes, the final outcome was inevitable, although the one incident set the > path. It is fairly commonly believed that MS-DOS would not have EXISTED > without the DR/IBM incompatability. Would Microsoft have gotten into > operating systems LATER? Eventually. Probably. But probably not for > years. For instance Microsoft Xenix would probably not have happened if > they hadn't already been doing MS-DOS. I had heard that Microsoft had licensed Xenix before the IBM thing. Bill thought he had a gentleman's agreement with Gary to not intrude in each other's turf and then DR came out with CBASIC. Furious, Bill got into operating systems in retaliation. When IBM came to Microsoft for an OS they had specs for a machine that was in no way up to running Xenix. So it is just simpler to tell the story as "Microsoft didn't have an operating system". Adding DOS complicated things for Microsoft so they planned to evolve the two systems towards each other until there was a single one. The January 1982 Byte says instead that there would be 3 systems: Xenix at the high end, DOS at the low end and a hybrid in the middle. MS-DOS 2 was essentially this hybrid (so most system calls have two versions: a CP/M one and a Unix one). Hmmm... here it says that though CBASIC was developed in 1976 it only became a DR product in 1981, which is too late for the story I told above to make sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBASIC > My recollection (not reliable) was that PC-DOS was originally $40, and > then went up to $60 with version 1.10 or 2.00. (Is that right?) > There are also conflicting stories about WHO set the price, and HOW; even > a conspiracy theory that IBM chose the $240 price to hinder CP/M-86 > competition. But, $240 was not grossly out of line in those days, so it > very well could have been set by DR, in which case, THAT was a substantial > mistake. At $40 for PC-DOS and $60 or even $80 for CP/M-86, there would > have been a better chance to compete, but not at $240. I have just watched a talk with Gary where he introduced DR Logo. It wasn't much cheaper than that. And at the end somebody asked about the soon to be introduced C compiler and the answer was that it would cost $600. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4P6MDuk3Zk > BTW, once Microsoft started work, IBM insisted on upgraded security and > locks. For a while, it was referred to as "Project Commodore" as a red > herring for any leaks. They installed barbed wire in the air ducts going into the room with the prototype. -- Jecel From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 24 22:30:09 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 20:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: <20200525023240.4EA0D8C07F9@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525023240.4EA0D8C07F9@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 May 2020, Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctalk wrote: > I had heard that Microsoft had licensed Xenix before the IBM thing. I hadn't known that. > Bill thought he had a gentleman's agreement with Gary to not intrude in > each other's turf and then DR came out with CBASIC. Furious, Bill got > into operating systems in retaliation. Gordon Eubanks (CBASIC) and gary were pretty tight. I just looked up and found out that Gary was his thesis advisor in 1976, when he wrote CBASIC. It seems like it was inevitable that Gary would end up marketing it. I played with it a little in mid 1980s; my recollection was that it was expensive, and impressive, but not especially suited for any of my projects. > When IBM came to Microsoft for an OS they had specs for a machine that > was in no way up to running Xenix. So it is just simpler to tell the > story as "Microsoft didn't have an operating system". Adding DOS > complicated things for Microsoft so they planned to evolve the two > systems towards each other until there was a single one. The January > 1982 Byte says instead that there would be 3 systems: Xenix at the high > end, DOS at the low end and a hybrid in the middle. MS-DOS 2 was > essentially this hybrid (so most system calls have two versions: a CP/M > one and a Unix one). I played briefly with Xenix on an XT (or MAYBE an AT) on a 15MB? drive partition. MS-DOS was a better match for that hardware. OS/2 (Gordon Letwin at Microsoft) was a substantial step up for MS-DOS. Once they added "Windows For Os/2"/"Presentation Manager", . . . BUT, then NT was not a direct transition from OS/2. And, around 1986? IBM started pushing OS/2 with PS/2 (had they bought OS/2 from Microsoft by then?) MS-DOS was based heavily on CP/M. Most university programming graduates were into unix. When Microsoft or Apple were recruiting, most of the best pickings were C programmers on unix. MS-DOS 2.00 was definitely moving towards unix, in terms of the sub directories, and file handle based API. I didn't know that there were plans for three levels, just that they were moving MS-DOS towards being unix-like. Keeping the CP/M style API kept most software compatible. FCBs made parsing filenames in the command line convenient! > Hmmm... here it says that though CBASIC was developed in 1976 it only > became a DR product in 1981, which is too late for the story I told > above to make sense: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBASIC Well Gary and Gordon were close in 1976, so you could use any date in that 1976-1981 range. > I have just watched a talk with Gary where he introduced DR Logo. It > wasn't much cheaper than that. And at the end somebody asked about the > soon to be introduced C compiler and the answer was that it would cost > $600. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4P6MDuk3Zk Yeah. some software was free, or almost, and some was very expensive. $240 for CP/M-86 was not out of line for the time, other than the fact that it was going head to head with an already established $40 (later $60?) product. A few years later, DR dropped the price of CP/M-86 down to $60. TOO LATE. >> BTW, once Microsoft started work, IBM insisted on upgraded security and >> locks. For a while, it was referred to as "Project Commodore" as a red >> herring for any leaks. > > They installed barbed wire in the air ducts going into the room with the > prototype. I hadn't known that, but it fits with an IBM PHYSICAL SECURITY attitude. (and totally out of character for west coast software culture!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rp at servium.ch Mon May 25 00:04:50 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 22:04:50 -0700 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort In-Reply-To: <43ef2f0a-2b39-5dec-b53c-e76d1f59aef4@snowmoose.com> References: <65642CF1-40DA-4CE6-AB25-08C084CB4C0D@snowmoose.com> <43ef2f0a-2b39-5dec-b53c-e76d1f59aef4@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: I've had good success using various Extron adapters. I'm currently using a RGB112xi to convert => VGA. So far the adapter works as advertised with anything I managed to connect it to (various HP/DEC/Sun/SGI/RS6000, including mono and SoG) to a cheap Dell monitor that definitely doesn't understand sync on green. The adapter fully regenerates all signals including separate H/V sync. >From there I would assume any cheap VGA => HDMI adapter should work (but I never had the urge, because HDMI monitors also tend to be wide format which doesn't work very well for classic computing) I also have other Extron converters, but the RGB112xi is best for 1990s workstations. The only thing I wish it had was a way to choose the color when the input signal is monochrome. On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:53 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > When I first started trying to use VGA LCD panels with my Suns (mostly > lunchbox systems, all 4c and 4m desktops), I heard there could be a > problem like that and stuck with a particular model Samsung that worked. > Then I tried another one and it worked. And another. And another. I > haven't encountered one (out of half a dozen) that didn't work. > > alanp > > On 5/24/20 9:29 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > > > I've had the opposite experience. I've been trying to find a 1U > > pull-out keyboard/monitor/mouse combo for my E6500 rack. Most of the > > VGA LCD panels complain about signal out of range on both cg3 and cg6. > > The E6500 really doesn't need a video console, but it'd be nice if one > > was tucked in there. Of course the weirdo Sun mounting rails in the > > cabinet are yet another challenge. > > > > -A > > > > On 2020-05-24 11:16, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Every flat panel display with a SVGA connector that I have had has > >> worked with my 13W3-to-SVGA adapters. I have seen adapters that do the > >> SVGA to HDMI part. I am asking if someone else here has figured out > >> which one(s) work in this application. > From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon May 25 00:22:08 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 22:22:08 -0700 Subject: 13W3 to HDMI/DisplayPort In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F390B1-04C3-4721-9851-DC2861061CD0@snowmoose.com> Thx. I haven?t seen many cheap VGA->HDMI adapters. The cheap ones went the other direction. I have been using widescreen displays with my Suns (using Solaris/CDE and OPENSTEP) for some time. My last Sun-badged display was a widescreen. Will look for Extron ones. > On May 24, 2020, at 22:05, Rico Pajarola wrote: > > ? > I've had good success using various Extron adapters. > > I'm currently using a RGB112xi to convert => VGA. > > So far the adapter works as advertised with anything I managed to connect it to (various HP/DEC/Sun/SGI/RS6000, including mono and SoG) to a cheap Dell monitor that definitely doesn't understand sync on green. The adapter fully regenerates all signals including separate H/V sync. > > From there I would assume any cheap VGA => HDMI adapter should work (but I never had the urge, because HDMI monitors also tend to be wide format which doesn't work very well for classic computing) > > I also have other Extron converters, but the RGB112xi is best for 1990s workstations. The only thing I wish it had was a way to choose the color when the input signal is monochrome. > > > >> On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:53 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> When I first started trying to use VGA LCD panels with my Suns (mostly >> lunchbox systems, all 4c and 4m desktops), I heard there could be a >> problem like that and stuck with a particular model Samsung that worked. >> Then I tried another one and it worked. And another. And another. I >> haven't encountered one (out of half a dozen) that didn't work. >> >> alanp >> >> On 5/24/20 9:29 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: >> > >> > I've had the opposite experience. I've been trying to find a 1U >> > pull-out keyboard/monitor/mouse combo for my E6500 rack. Most of the >> > VGA LCD panels complain about signal out of range on both cg3 and cg6. >> > The E6500 really doesn't need a video console, but it'd be nice if one >> > was tucked in there. Of course the weirdo Sun mounting rails in the >> > cabinet are yet another challenge. >> > >> > -A >> > >> > On 2020-05-24 11:16, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> > >> >> Every flat panel display with a SVGA connector that I have had has >> >> worked with my 13W3-to-SVGA adapters. I have seen adapters that do the >> >> SVGA to HDMI part. I am asking if someone else here has figured out >> >> which one(s) work in this application. From rp at servium.ch Sun May 24 23:25:04 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 21:25:04 -0700 Subject: looking for VME board manuals Message-ID: Hi all I acquired a "few" VME boards over the years, and I finally have time to deal with some of the less cooperative ones. I'm looking for the following VME board manuals (any information is welcome, especially pinouts for the front panel or P2 connectors, jumpers, how to re-create the nvram contents etc. ). * Themis Sparc 10MP (not 20MP which is an entirely different board with a different front panel) * Force SPARC CPU 10 * MVME3600 (user's or installation manual, I can only find the programmer's manual) also looking for manuals for some HP VXI boards (more for completeness than because they're necessary, the boards are pretty self-explanatory unless you need to recreate the cables): * HP E1499A (V/382) * HP E1498A (V/743) * HP E1480A (V/362) Also anything about the Mercury RACE MCH6 or MCV6 system that's more than a marketing brochure (actually, I'd even take a marketing brochure). I have some i860 and PowerPC boards but absolutely no idea where to start. And of course I'm also looking for software, but I'm not holding my breath... thanks! Rico From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 25 02:10:02 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 08:10:02 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RLA6J5HWS68XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 19:24:31 -0400, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >On 5/24/20 5:30 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> CP/67 or something like that maybe? I don't think there was a VM/360 either. >> > > There was VM/370 in 1980. I worked under it from May to August. > Hosted on a 4331 at Ft. Ben Harrison, IN. The launch of the > Mainframe and COBOL facet of my career and life. > A variant of VM/370 Release 6 is running here in front of me under Hercules running on VMS on a DEC Alphaserver 800 from 20+ years ago. I used to think that was a bit special but now one of the other guys whose system is on an NJE network with mine is running VM/370 under Hercules on a mobile phone. Many of the source file dates in VM/370 Release 6 are in 1978. Some might say that Release 6 was the "last" VM/370 but that word is just as difficult to pin down as "first" and the devil is in the detail. Release 6 seems to be the last freely available release of VM/370 though. There were one or two more updates for VM/370 but I think those were charged-for software and just after that the name was changed. If I have the sequence right, it went through a succession, of being called VM/SP, VM/XA, VM/ESA and is known today as z/VM. Under the covers though, it's all the same stuff as VM/370 and it looks like VM/370 wasn't even the original name for it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > bill > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon May 25 03:20:16 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 09:20:16 +0100 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <04b901d6326d$52961580$f7c24080$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > via cctalk > Sent: 25 May 2020 00:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: history is hard > > On 5/24/20 5:30 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > CP/67 or something like that maybe? I don't think there was a VM/360 > either. > > > > There was VM/370 in 1980. I worked under it from May to August. > Hosted on a 4331 at Ft. Ben Harrison, IN. The launch of the Mainframe and > COBOL facet of my career and life. > > bill > If any one is interested in the history of VM/CMS then there are various accounts on this page (scroll to the bottom) http://www.leeandmelindavarian.com/Melinda/ Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon May 25 03:49:08 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 09:49:08 +0100 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <01RLA6J5HWS68XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RLA6J5HWS68XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <04be01d63271$5ae5c830$10b15890$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > via cctalk > Sent: 25 May 2020 08:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: history is hard > > On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 19:24:31 -0400, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >On 5/24/20 5:30 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> > >> CP/67 or something like that maybe? I don't think there was a VM/360 > either. > >> > > > > There was VM/370 in 1980. I worked under it from May to August. > > Hosted on a 4331 at Ft. Ben Harrison, IN. The launch of the Mainframe > > and COBOL facet of my career and life. > > > > A variant of VM/370 Release 6 is running here in front of me under Hercules > running on VMS on a DEC Alphaserver 800 from 20+ years ago. > I used to think that was a bit special but now one of the other guys whose > system is on an NJE network with mine is running VM/370 under Hercules on > a mobile phone. > > Many of the source file dates in VM/370 Release 6 are in 1978. Some might > say that Release 6 was the "last" VM/370 but that word is just as difficult to > pin down as "first" and the devil is in the detail. > > Release 6 seems to be the last freely available release of VM/370 though. > There were one or two more updates for VM/370 but I think those were > charged-for software and just after that the name was changed. If I have the > sequence right, it went through a succession, of being called VM/SP, VM/XA, > VM/ESA and is known today as z/VM. > Under the covers though, it's all the same stuff as VM/370 and it looks like > VM/370 wasn't even the original name for it. > Early on there was CP/47 and CP/67 which ran on the 360/47 and 360/67 respectively. In these systems the end user operating system, CMS, would also IPL (load) on bare hardware. Modern CMS won't do this. It needs some CP services to run. I would disagree with Peter over the "same under the covers". VM/370 on early 370 Hardware was a pure software hypervisor. With 370 hardware the Hypervisor (CP) is able to hide the CPU's privileged or supervisor state from the machine in the VM. All attempts to read this state result in a Privileged Exception. CP runs all VM's in user mode. When a VM switches to supervisor state CP merely makes a note in a control block. The VM still runs in user mode, and CP has to simulate any privilege mode instructions it executes. As time progressed "Hardware Assists" were added so that the microcode performed some of the functions formally carried out in CP. When running a "real" OS such as MVS which spends a lot of time in supervisor state, this generates a lot of CPU overhead. The assists help by allowing a guest to execute some privileged instructions without involving CP and reducing any CPU overhead. However, from XA onwards this approach is not possible. In 370/XA mode the machine state can be read by non-privileged programs. IBM also provided a new microcode instruction Start Interpretive Execution (SIE) which allows CP to run Virtual Machines with much less overhead. Whilst I believe much of what SIE does evolved from the assists, to me it?s a fundamentally different way of running the machine. Virtualization is now delivered by the Microcode not the Hypervisor.. > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > Dave > > > > bill > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 25 05:24:16 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:24:16 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <04be01d63271$5ae5c830$10b15890$@gmail.com> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RLA6J5HWS68XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RLACZ8IEHE8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 09:49:08 +0100, Dave Wade wrote: > > In these systems the end user operating system, CMS, would also IPL (load) > on bare hardware. > I wouldn't regard CMS as being the definitive end user operating system. Often, the reason for having VM is not to support multiple instances of CMS. The end user operating system can be anything that can be ipled in a virtual machine which is pretty much anything that can be ipled on the real hardware (except for CMS of course which can be an end user operating system without complying with this rule). > > I would disagree with Peter over the "same under the covers". > Yes, that was the wrong way to put it. I was trying to say that these variously named entities produced over many decades all do pretty much the same thing and have a common ancestry. Perhaps something like they "deliver the same functionality" would have been better? > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > Dave > Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > > > > > bill > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon May 25 07:38:35 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 13:38:35 +0100 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <01RLACZ8IEHE8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RL9LATPDM08XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RLA6J5HWS68XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <01RLACZ8IEHE8XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <00e101d63291$689329d0$39b97d70$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > via cctalk > Sent: 25 May 2020 11:24 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: history is hard > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 09:49:08 +0100, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > > In these systems the end user operating system, CMS, would also IPL > > (load) on bare hardware. > > > > I wouldn't regard CMS as being the definitive end user operating system. > Often, the reason for having VM is not to support multiple instances of CMS. > The end user operating system can be anything that can be ipled in a virtual > machine which is pretty much anything that can be ipled on the real > hardware (except for CMS of course which can be an end user operating > system without complying with this rule). No, when they had VM/ESA in Stockport Council it was mostly for VM/ESA with CICS and CMS just for management and config. Before that in NERC it was all interactive workload. > > > > > I would disagree with Peter over the "same under the covers". > > > > Yes, that was the wrong way to put it. I was trying to say that these variously > named entities produced over many decades all do pretty much the same > thing and have a common ancestry. > > Perhaps something like they "deliver the same functionality" would have > been better? > Yes, and of course whilst in some ways the whilst the change to SIE was a step change in the way CP delivers VMs in other ways it was a just one point on the evolution of VM. It started with the ECPS assists (I think Extended Control Program Services) which had more features added over time so the Hardware handled more tasks, but VM could cope if they were not present. Then as things switched from 24 bit to 31 bit hardware and XA and ESA architecture appeared CP had to have SIE to work, and the type of VM it could deliver depended on what SIE on the box could support. Over time SIE itself has evolved to offload more work from CP (or HCP as its now called) and the architecture has moved from 31 bit to 64 bit. On the other hand I expect some parts of CP will be traceable back to VM/370. For example the spool which allows virtual card decks and print files to be stored and manipulated is still similar. CP still has to manage control blocks for each VM that exists, its just that it uses SIE to execute them. It still manages a directory of users and passwords and controls who can logon. It has to keep a track of which real devices map to which virtual devices of each VM. Dave > > > > > Regards, > > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > > > Dave > > > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 25 09:17:25 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 16:17:25 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 22:24, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 23 May 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > It is pretty much the *same* BASIC in the PET, VIC-20 and C64. It got > > trivial adjustments for the hardware, but bear in mind: the PET had no > > graphics, > > PETSCII/PETASCII character graphics were almost as good as TRS80 character > graphics! :-) > https://i2.wp.com/www.the8bitguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Commodore-History-Part-1-The-Pet-0011-PETSCII.png The first microcomputer I ever touched was a PET 4032 running what was called a "Tic-Tac-Toe" program. Since we don't have anything called Tic-tac-toe in the UK -- the game is called "Noughts and Crosses" -- it took me a little while to work out what it was and what it was doing, but once I did, I could play against it. On a 9x9 grid the game is less trivial. So, yes, PETSCII lets you draw some stuff, but I was only about 12. It really wasn't enough to grab me for long, not for the price of a car. American computers were all super-expensive in Europe: apparently, in the USA, people felt that a $1000 computer was affordable. As Peter Corlett notes, that wasn't even a joke in 1980s Britain. A computer 1/4 of that price was something a rich family could consider, but a computer for the masses over here had to be a tenth of that price. I never saw a single working Apple ][ when they were current. I never saw a working TRS-anything except in Tandy shops (we didn't have "Radio Shacks" because "shack" isn't a commonly-used word here, I suppose, and has negative connotations. Atari 8-bits penetrated a little but were pricey. TI-99/4As did OK after the price cut, but they were poor machines, and the upgrades weren't available over here much. All the machines that the American magazines talked about were unknown to $REST_OF_WORLD, basically. So... ?\_(?)_/? > That was a keyboard?? > I thought that it was just a picture of a keyboard glued on, as a > suggestion of a possible accessory to purchase. :-) > Besides, the bottom of the door scrapes it. In your joke, you highlight what I mean. You're thinking of a ZX-81. It had a flat keyboard (i.e. just like an Atari 400) and was wedge-shaped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX81#/media/File:Sinclair-ZX81.png US version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Sinclair_1000#/media/File:Timex_Sinclair_1000_FL.jpg I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the ZX Spectrum, a totally different, later machine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Spectrum#/media/File:ZXSpectrum48k.jpg ZX81: 1KB RAM, no sound, no graphics, mono text, membrane keyboard. ZX Spectrum: 16/48KB RAM, 1-bit sound, 16 colour graphics, calculator keyboard. There was no similar US version of the Spectrum. The Timex machine looks totally different, has a hard keyboard, a cartridge slot, much better graphics with 2 additional modes, a 3-channel sound chip -- and was thus almost totally incompatible. This total ignorance of $REST_OF_WORLD's computers is sadly typical in a mainly-US community like this, but come on, Fred, I know you can do better. You sadden me, sir. You're doing the same as Timex did: "hey, dumb little island, doesn't matter. We'll make it better and it'll sell better." Ignoring that this was probably the single-most-cloned 8-bit computer in history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZX_Spectrum_clones With one of the biggest 3rd party software catalogues in computing history until the IBM PC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZX_Spectrum_games Basically none of which worked on the Timex machine. This is _huge_ piece of the development of the home computer. More versions and more variants than every 8-bit machine ever shipped by Commodore, Atari, Apple and Tandy Radio Shack *put together*. But it the American variant flopped and didn't sell, so hey, let's jokingly say that a TS1000 and a TS2068 are the same machine? It's like me saying "Heh, dumb DEC nerds, all the PDP series were the same. Why do they pretend to care? The PDP-8 was 8-bit, the PDP-16 was 16-bit, that's all that matters!" WARNING FOR THE SARCASM IMPAIRED. THIS IS HUMOUR. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CORRECT IT. > BUT, if any ever achieve stability, support is discontinued, to try > to force purchase of a newer, even less reliable one. No, you're thinking of Windows. The thing that pays for the Linux world to exist is RH & SUSE charging millions to keep decade-old distros working. > > CBM apparently still had no real clue _why_ the C64 was a massive hit, > > or who was buying it, or why. > > I was tempted to get one of Jeri Ellsworth's knock-offs. I have one. Cost me ?10 on clearance. Very clever little device. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 25 09:23:54 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 16:23:54 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <465F0206ABBB52C2.9D00347B-94D6-4F01-A2F5-C7389D471F08@mail.outlook.com> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> <465F0206ABBB52C2.9D00347B-94D6-4F01-A2F5-C7389D471F08@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 03:42, Richard Cini wrote: > > Thanks Liam. Oberon is pretty interesting. I may download that just to see it in action. I?ve used a ton of 3Com cards so the setup program is pretty familiar. I haven?t used DESQview, well, since I had it installed on my Compaq DeskPro 386/25. > > What I am looking for is code that actually uses the CoW library...like a ?Hello World!? for the library. I do plan on installing VB_DOS and play with that too. I have no real project in mind for it though. Oberon's definitely worth a look. Oberon also had some wider influence: Oberon's Text UI (TUI) inspired Acme, the Plan 9 editor/IDE/email client, and some of the Plan 9 UI in general. I have VB for DOS but I never wrapped my head around VB and its odd semi-OOPS. I was much happier in QB3 or QB4. Sadly, AFAICT, when the CUA-compliant, text-oriented windowing era came to DOS, I think that for the most part, everyone rolled their own. Borland's later-era DOS Pascal compilers made their toolkit available to users, which QB4 did not AFAIK. So there were apps in Borland TurboPascal that used them. This is my preferred console editor on Linux: https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde/ I *think* the programmer re-implemented his own COW system but I'm not sure. Ask him? It replaced this: http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ Sadly not updated for modern Linux distros. It links to some info about COW libraries for Linux. BTW: I'd avoid that term if possible, as it overlaps with Copy-On-Write, a major modern filesystems feature. TUI is the term used in the Oberon context and is a bit more distinctive; the only overlap I know is a defunct travel company. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From elson at pico-systems.com Mon May 25 09:40:13 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 09:40:13 -0500 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5ECBD8CD.4020700@pico-systems.com> On 05/24/2020 04:18 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > IBM's standard VM/360. Sorry for the confusion. That will > teach me to reply on my phone... Warner As far as I know, there was no VM/360. There WAS VM/370, which was out in the early 1970's, but on 370 mainframes, not 360s. Jon From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon May 25 10:18:09 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:18:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> <465F0206ABBB52C2.9D00347B-94D6-4F01-A2F5-C7389D471F08@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: <465F0206ABBB52C2.C754AB12-A6D8-42CF-8FA0-8A142A02D427@mail.outlook.com> Thanks. I believe the official name is CW for Character Windows, probably to avoid that confusion. Get Outlook for iOS On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 10:24 AM -0400, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 03:42, Richard Cini wrote: > > Thanks Liam. Oberon is pretty interesting. I may download that just to see it in action. I?ve used a ton of 3Com cards so the setup program is pretty familiar. I haven?t used DESQview, well, since I had it installed on my Compaq DeskPro 386/25. > > What I am looking for is code that actually uses the CoW library...like a ?Hello World!? for the library. I do plan on installing VB_DOS and play with that too. I have no real project in mind for it though. Oberon's definitely worth a look. Oberon also had some wider influence: Oberon's Text UI (TUI) inspired Acme, the Plan 9 editor/IDE/email client, and some of the Plan 9 UI in general. I have VB for DOS but I never wrapped my head around VB and its odd semi-OOPS. I was much happier in QB3 or QB4. Sadly, AFAICT, when the CUA-compliant, text-oriented windowing era came to DOS, I think that for the most part, everyone rolled their own. Borland's later-era DOS Pascal compilers made their toolkit available to users, which QB4 did not AFAIK. So there were apps in Borland TurboPascal that used them. This is my preferred console editor on Linux: https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde/ I *think* the programmer re-implemented his own COW system but I'm not sure. Ask him? It replaced this: http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ Sadly not updated for modern Linux distros. It links to some info about COW libraries for Linux. BTW: I'd avoid that term if possible, as it overlaps with Copy-On-Write, a major modern filesystems feature. TUI is the term used in the Oberon context and is a bit more distinctive; the only overlap I know is a defunct travel company. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon May 25 10:18:09 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:18:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7d5287a5-2318-7407-230d-d3ce65c96f1c@jbrain.com> <81F8916A-B9D1-4A10-988B-F6D8CDE3B535@verizon.net> <465F0206ABBB52C2.9D00347B-94D6-4F01-A2F5-C7389D471F08@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: <465F0206ABBB52C2.C754AB12-A6D8-42CF-8FA0-8A142A02D427@mail.outlook.com> Thanks. I believe the official name is CW for Character Windows, probably to avoid that confusion. Get Outlook for iOS On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 10:24 AM -0400, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 03:42, Richard Cini wrote: > > Thanks Liam. Oberon is pretty interesting. I may download that just to see it in action. I?ve used a ton of 3Com cards so the setup program is pretty familiar. I haven?t used DESQview, well, since I had it installed on my Compaq DeskPro 386/25. > > What I am looking for is code that actually uses the CoW library...like a ?Hello World!? for the library. I do plan on installing VB_DOS and play with that too. I have no real project in mind for it though. Oberon's definitely worth a look. Oberon also had some wider influence: Oberon's Text UI (TUI) inspired Acme, the Plan 9 editor/IDE/email client, and some of the Plan 9 UI in general. I have VB for DOS but I never wrapped my head around VB and its odd semi-OOPS. I was much happier in QB3 or QB4. Sadly, AFAICT, when the CUA-compliant, text-oriented windowing era came to DOS, I think that for the most part, everyone rolled their own. Borland's later-era DOS Pascal compilers made their toolkit available to users, which QB4 did not AFAIK. So there were apps in Borland TurboPascal that used them. This is my preferred console editor on Linux: https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde/ I *think* the programmer re-implemented his own COW system but I'm not sure. Ask him? It replaced this: http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ Sadly not updated for modern Linux distros. It links to some info about COW libraries for Linux. BTW: I'd avoid that term if possible, as it overlaps with Copy-On-Write, a major modern filesystems feature. TUI is the term used in the Oberon context and is a bit more distinctive; the only overlap I know is a defunct travel company. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon May 25 11:09:43 2020 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:09:43 -0400 Subject: GWBASIC Source Code Message-ID: GWBASIC- (Gee-Whiz BASIC) is a Microsoft product, designed much along the line of IBM?s BASICA, that did not need a ROM BASIC and was interpreted. Not necessarily basic in design or purpose as defined by Oxford English Dictionary & Wikipedia and Computer Desktop Encyclopedia, some(purists) say the latter two shouldn?t be used with the former, GWBASIC nevertheless was an important development in the early years of our hobby. Little has been mentioned about the source code: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/microsoft-open-sources-gw-basic/ It?s available on GitHub for download and use in WIN 7 to 10 as far as I know! At that time(1983) in micro-computing history it did what was intended, help microcomputer owners/users with limited processor and memory capabilities. Serving this purpose, was there a better BASIC? No doubt. I used ADAM-BASIC, much like APPLE BASIC, to write silly-little programs or more-sophisticated ones. Hobbyists, experimenters and early microcomputer lovers had another tool to master. It?s success may be attributed more to marketing than anything else but early microcomputer users were happy to get their hands on something new. And, Microsoft knew marketing, not as well as APPLE, but the game was capitalism and getting software out the door! Being first or second was not necessarily the primary reason for rising to the top. And today: Is LOGO or Python any better teaching tools than GWBASIC for beginners? I hardly doubt that. Happy computing. Murray ? From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 25 11:44:35 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 18:44:35 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 05:14, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > The serial interface would have been fast enough, if the MOS folks had > talked to the design team about the bug and squashed it early. But, they > did not, and on the VIC-20, which did not expect to move many drives, no > one cared. When the VIC-40 (c64) came out, by then the drive was more > important, but no one was going to redo the drive again (they tried to > put a new trace on the IEC bus to enable fast mode later, but it got > optimized out in final layout in Japan). I defer. I never owned one. I had a ZX Spectrum and longed for a BBC Micro. > You say that like CBM was known for not "cheaping" out and this was an > anomaly. Bil Herd noted that they designed the 64 to last just as long > as the warrantee. I think this is part of what irks me. Sinclair tried hard to make the best possible computers it could for a limited budget. The ZX80 and ZX81 were pretty good for their time. The Acorn Atom, for instance, was far superior, but too expensive and only sold in small numbers. I personally never saw the appeal in the VIC-20: it was quite expensive, and 22 columns of text? Come on, you're making fun of me. What use is that? The ZX Spectrum was not an optimal solution -- I read recently that although it sold in the millions and inspired a hundred clones and copies, it never made a profit for Sinclair, whereas the ZX81 was very lucrative. But it had passable graphics, passable sound, a just about passable keyboard, a passable BASIC. It was very expandable; mine ended up with dual 5.24" 780 KB disk drives on a disk interface that also gave me a joystick port, a proprietary network port (!), a Centronics printer port, an NMI button for taking and dumping snapshots of copy-protected games and screenshots thereof and more. And when I bought a newer 128KB Spectrum, all that worked with it as before. In a machine that was ?175 at launch, or about half to a third of the price of an add-on floppy drive for a Commodore or Atari. I think that's a pretty good attempt to hit multiple targets in one go. It was weak in all areas, sure, but it was broadly equally weak whereas it hit a price point other companies hadn't even considered aimed for. Whereas the C64... well, I will quote you out of sequence: > I think you just don't agree with what they were doing. Jack was > selling game machines that had enough computing power to satisfy Mom and > Dad's edict that the kids not just have a game console. If you wanted > good use of video or audio, you bought from CBM or the third party. > BASIC was minimal, because you had to have something to load the game :-) That is my _point_ here. Good graphics, for 1982. Great sound, for the early '80s at all. Decent keyboard. Some expansion potential. But not balanced, because of a deeply crappy BASIC. Remember, it was US$595 when it was new; as Wikipedia notes, that's equivalent to $1,576 in 2019. I do not expect a shitty half-assed effort at a BASIC for one and a half thousand bucks! If I spent $1500 on a computer these days, no, I most definitely would not accept that it had, say, 16GB of RAM, a kick-ass 3D card, a ~4GHz octo-core processor... and the OS was installed on a 400GB EIDE drive. You say: > Oh, I think that's a stretch. Because of the system's ubiquity, there > are plenty of BASIC upgrades available to add the requisite audio and > video options. BASIC had other issues, Commodore can't take credit for > giving it a bad name. [...] > As a home user of the machine back int he day, I highly disagree. We all > had fixed the BAD BASIC and slow drive issues a few years after intro. > By 1984, everyone had fastload or JiffyDOS or SpeeDOS or similar, and > BASIC 4.0 or even better BASICs were always available. It was a games > machine, with a rightly limited BASIC (you want more feature, buy the > add-in. It was like the in app purchases of today's games) I really don't think that counts. 3rd party upgrades or replacements don't signify, because they just lead to market fragmentation. Book publishers wouldn't do books of programming tips for some niche BASIC extension that only 1% of the market has. Magazines wouldn't print tutorials and listings for it. No. It's what's in the box that counts. It was a massive, egregious, outstanding corner that was cut on a fifteen hundred dollar machine, not just a detail to be swept under the rug. And yes, I think it really _did_ set the expectations of millions as to what BASIC was. Certainly when I was a spotty 13YO schoolboy, with friends learning programming, and the Commodore owners were surprised to learn that those of us with Sinclair or Oric machines, or a bit later Amstrads -- you may well have never seen or heard of any of those; look 'em up, they're interesting -- could do stuff like draw shapes and play tunes right in BASIC. > Oh come on. The Osborne had the same size screen and sold well. Dipping > their toe in that market to sell hardware doesn't seem such a stretch to me. It was, as you yourself say, a relatively cheap home/games computer, not a business one. > I can't argue that, but the machines weren't supposed to exist. Jack > wanted a Sinclair killer to mop up the low end of the market. The C116 > was that machine (complete with crappy chicklet KB and wedge form > factor, priced at $USD49.00. It was Jack and Gould's falling out that > caused Jack to quit caring about the machine (which less competent > minions decided to promote up into a business machine (+4) and a > slightly larger form factor without the hideous chicklet KB (C16). They > even toyed with a supersized +4 for a time (CV364), but I will agree > with your angst on this line of machines. I got that. What I was trying to convey was that, ISTM, it's evidence that Commodore didn't really know to whom it was selling, what those customers wanted, or how to exploit its massive market share. Cluelessness was quite common in the micro industry. Lots of companies promised the Earth, couldn't deliver and died, or delivered late and died, or underdelivered and died, because they didn't understand the market or how to win a place in it. And yet, despite that, there was a profusion of machines. Z80 and 6502 and 6809. MS BASIC and MSX. The big American makes: Atari and Tandy and Apple. The big European makes: Sinclair, Oric, Amstrad. The niche ones: Sord, Spectravideo, Mattel, VTech/Laser, Dick Smith. The little British companies: Dragon, Memotech, Camputers, Jupiter, Elan. So much diversity. But so few of them put the effort into a decent programming language. Not "let us help educate the children because they are our future". No, instead, "screw 'em, they're kids, we just have to bullshit their parents." The long-term result was tarnishing the name of one of the greatest educational languages ever written, and certainly by far the most successful compared to Logo or Smalltalk or anything else. > Jack knew. Sell low cost machines with good value to mop up market > share and make money. Put only the bare minimum in them. Folks after > him did not agree, which I do think fits in with your statement. I am not so sure. I don't think a 64KB micro in 1982 was "bare minumum" of anything, TBH. It was a relatively high-end machine for its time. The Sinclairs were bare-minimum low-cost kit. Not Commodore. > Again, misleading. The Z80 was not a design goal. a 2MHz C64 > compatible with 80 columns was the design goal. THank the Z80 on some > Marketing shmuck that promised CP/M compatibility on the unit (thinking > the C64 CP/M cart would work, which it can't, because the cart is badly > designed, I am told it was a bit f plagiarism from an Apple II CP/M > card, but failed to take into account the strange C64 bus cycle). Bil > is around and can happily tell you the story of simply designing the Z80 > cart into the main motherboard to checkoff the requirement and quit > having to fight to get the cart to work. I had heard that but forgotten about it. I still think it was a bad idea, TBH. But hey, it sold in the millions, so... *shrug* > CBM really wasn't interested as soon as the Amiga purchase happened. I > think the C128 only got greenlit because CBM needed some cash flow and > the Amiga was taking too long to ramp up sales. In my opinion, the C65 > was an early retro machine, trying to bring back some of that 80's home > computer vibe. That's an interesting take. I think I have to give you that one. :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 25 13:00:08 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 20:00:08 +0200 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525023240.4EA0D8C07F9@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 05:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I played briefly with Xenix on an XT (or MAYBE an AT) on a 15MB? drive > partition. MS-DOS was a better match for that hardware. Never tried Xenix on an XT, but it was the 2nd OS on my PC-AT in my first ever job. That machine was very limited (512 KB RAM, 20 + 15 MB ST-506 disks), but on a well-specced 286, it was quite a decent little Unix. It could properly use an 80286 and up to 16 MB of RAM, something DOS in the 286 era couldn't do -- MS-DOS 3.3 did not even come with a disk cache. (Not counting FILES=20 BUFFERS=20 in CONFIG.SYS!) IBMs came with an installable driver called, I think, IBMCACHE.SYS. This used extended RAM (above 1MB) as a hard disk cache, without XMS or HIMEM.SYS or any of that. I played with it and was amazed by the results. I started enabling it by default on customers' machines. Most were happy but some had the habit of just turning off -- DOS didn't really have a shutdown routine. Some, I could train to press Ctrl-Alt-Del before turning off. Some I couldn't, so I had to disable the disk cache. But for those that could learn and adapt, it made DOS _much_ faster, and on a 1MB PS/2 Model 50 or 60, it was about the only thing you could do with the extra 386 KB of RAM before MS-DOS 5 came out. So the fact that Xenix could use 4 MB or 8 MB in a 286 seemed like wizardry. > OS/2 (Gordon Letwin at Microsoft) was a substantial step up for MS-DOS. > Once they added "Windows For Os/2"/"Presentation Manager", . . . > BUT, then NT was not a direct transition from OS/2. > And, around 1986? IBM started pushing OS/2 with PS/2 (had they bought OS/2 > from Microsoft by then?) No, not yet. OS/2 1.0: 1987. Text-only. OS/2 1.1: 1988. Finally got the PM GUI. OS/2 1.2: 1989. Started to be a bit usable. OS/2 1.3: 1990. Same year as Windows 3.0, which spelled its doom. OS/2 2: 1992. 1 year before Windows NT 3.1. First IBM-only version, first 386 version. AFAIK IBM never _bought_ OS/2. MS walked away from the co-development deal after Windows 3.0 was a huge hit -- 3 million copies in 1990 alone. OS/2 2 was the 386 version. OS/2 3 was to be a portable version. There was next to nothing written, but MS commissioned a line of Intel i860 RISC boxes (codenamed N-10) to prototype it on. When they hired Dave Cutler & team in 1988, that was the product he was given to salvage. It became OS/2 NT which became Windows NT. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From imp at bsdimp.com Mon May 25 13:13:55 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:13:55 -0600 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <5ECBD8CD.4020700@pico-systems.com> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <01RL9K69ME148XA4UB@beyondthepale.ie> <5ECBD8CD.4020700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 25, 2020, 8:40 AM Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/24/2020 04:18 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > IBM's standard VM/360. Sorry for the confusion. That will > > teach me to reply on my phone... Warner > As far as I know, there was no VM/360. There WAS VM/370, > which was out in the early 1970's, but > on 370 mainframes, not 360s. > Even off my phone I can't get it right. Warner > Jon > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon May 25 13:22:40 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:22:40 -0700 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525023240.4EA0D8C07F9@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On Mon, 2020-05-25 at 20:00 +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 05:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > IBMs came with an installable driver called, I think, IBMCACHE.SYS. > This used extended RAM (above 1MB) as a hard disk cache, without XMS > or HIMEM.SYS or any of that. I played with it and was amazed by the > results. I started enabling it by default on customers' machines. I hadn't thought about IBMCACHE.SYS in *years*. I wrote it in its entirety (there's even a patent that covers some of its operation). I was in an AdTech (Advanced Technology) group at the time and was looking at how to make disk operations faster in DOS at the time when I came up with the idea. There was a *huge* battle within IBM on if it should be released and in order to do so, it was fairly well hidden. > Most > were happy but some had the habit of just turning off -- DOS didn't > really have a shutdown routine. Some, I could train to press > Ctrl-Alt-Del before turning off. Some I couldn't, so I had to disable > the disk cache. There was a switch on config.sys statement for IBMCACHE.SYS to turn off the write-back cache (e.g. writes would always go straight to disk). As I recall, there was a 30 second timer for the writeback cache so that if a disk block was "dirty" for more than 30 seconds it would get flushed to disk. > > But for those that could learn and adapt, it made DOS _much_ faster, > and on a 1MB PS/2 Model 50 or 60, it was about the only thing you > could do with the extra 386 KB of RAM before MS-DOS 5 came out. > TTFN - Guy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 25 13:26:57 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 19:26:57 +0100 Subject: DECstation 220 Diagnostic "Test for Shutdown return" Message-ID: <007301d632c2$130ad6d0$39208470$@ntlworld.com> According to a manual a friend has, the DECstation 220 outputs a diagnostic code on the parallel port. If I have interpreted it correctly the code being output by my machine is "Test for shutdown return". Does anyone know what that might mean? Regards Rob From t.gardner at computer.org Mon May 25 13:27:06 2020 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:27:06 -0700 Subject: Standard Cocktail Napkin Size [WAS: RE: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC)} Message-ID: <009a01d632c2$189599f0$49c0cdd0$@computer.org> On Sunday, May 24, 2020 11:23 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote in part: >> On Sun, 24 May 2020, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >>The final media size was determined by Shugart Engineering led by Al >> Chou from the size of the 8-track tape drive that the 5?-inch FDD was >> to replace in Wang and other systems. As near as I can tell it was >> not the same size as a ?standard? cocktail napkin. >"standard"??!? >"I believe in standards. Everyone should have [a unique] one [of their own]." - George Morrow I have seen napkins that are about 5.25". I did attempt to see if there is a "standard" cocktail napkin size and as best I can tell it is today 5-inches square not 5?-inches square. A friend who is a veteran of the paper products industry provided me an actual cocktail napkin circa 1980 (a promotional give away for his business) that he recalls was procured to the then standard size which I measured as 5-inches square. Apparently cocktail napkins have not deflated over the intervening 40 years :-) This supports Adkisson's recollection that the customer wanted something about the size of a cocktail napkin and Chou's description of the development process that tried to maximize the size of the disk that could be received in a drive which in turn was designed to fit into the then existing 8-track tape drive slot. Tom From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon May 25 13:27:06 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 20:27:06 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200525182706.GA17258@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 04:17:25PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] > So, yes, PETSCII lets you draw some stuff, but I was only about 12. It really > wasn't enough to grab me for long, not for the price of a car. If you prefer the price of your wheels to be around ?205, there's this just-released PET clone: https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/mini-pet.html. It's made using "proper" chips rather than an FPGA, and is a drop-in replacement for the board in a dead PET. From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 25 13:28:47 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 20:28:47 +0200 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525023240.4EA0D8C07F9@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 20:22, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > I hadn't thought about IBMCACHE.SYS in *years*. I wrote it in its > entirety (there's even a patent that covers some of its operation). I > was in an AdTech (Advanced Technology) group at the time and was > looking at how to make disk operations faster in DOS at the time when I > came up with the idea. Oh my word! Well I thank you for it. It helped a very great deal and made dozens of users of rather expensive IBM PS/2s in the Isle of Man very happy for a while in the late 1980s and early 1990s. :-) > There was a *huge* battle within IBM on if it should be released and in > order to do so, it was fairly well hidden. I can believe that! I think I read of it in a magazine and thought "never! I'd know!" -- so I looked and there it was. > There was a switch on config.sys statement for IBMCACHE.SYS to turn off > the write-back cache (e.g. writes would always go straight to disk). > As I recall, there was a 30 second timer for the writeback cache so > that if a disk block was "dirty" for more than 30 seconds it would get > flushed to disk. Yes, both true. I think I may have used the write-through switch for some people, but ISTR it reduced performance a little bit. Just teaching people to be a bit more patient was sometimes hard -- after all, this was a tool that appealed to the impatient! I think for them it was easier to teach them to press C-A-D and then wait for the RAM check before turning off. Or hit C-A-D, let it boot all the way, then turn it off! Great bit of work, if I may say so! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From athornton at gmail.com Mon May 25 13:39:49 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:39:49 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 68, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 25, 2020, at 10:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > The topic for my talk next week. Unix had virtualization in 74. The second > Unix port ran under OS/360's VM in 78. _Ahem_. It ran under VM/370. Most (all?) models of the IBM 370 had virtual memory, as had the (not widely-available) 360/67. OS/360 is one of several operating systems for the IBM 360 and successors. I grabbed the Princeton v7-to-370 port sources, and I have a VM/370 r6 machine set up on Hercules, but I have not yet made the attempt to combine the two. Many years after that, also at Princeton, I sysadminned PenguinVM, which as far as I know was the first publicly-available Linux/390 machine. Adam From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 25 13:42:01 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 14:42:01 -0400 Subject: 3 stylewriter printers available for pickup only, Fairfield, IA Message-ID: Came in through vintagecomputer.net that I am passing along. Anyone out there near Fairfield, IA and looking for three Apple Stylewriter printers let me know and I will put you in contact with the woman who has them. I was told that there was a few other things, but no computers. They're pick up only. The woman asked that she be told 1) phone number 2) your location Please contact me ONLY through https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm because this is the most reliable means of contacting me. I find Gmail sends a lot of group posts and replies straight to the spam folder. I do not know the donor nor do I know about the hardware. I don't know the deadline for retrieving them. I do not know nuthin. I will bundle together the persons who inquire and forward to her to decide whom to contact. Bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon May 25 13:47:00 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:47:00 -0700 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525001621.5133E5E0135@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <20200525023240.4EA0D8C07F9@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On Mon, 2020-05-25 at 20:28 +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 20:22, Guy Sotomayor > wrote: > > > > I hadn't thought about IBMCACHE.SYS in *years*. I wrote it in its > > entirety (there's even a patent that covers some of its operation). > > I > > was in an AdTech (Advanced Technology) group at the time and was > > looking at how to make disk operations faster in DOS at the time > > when I > > came up with the idea. > > Oh my word! Well I thank you for it. It helped a very great deal and > made dozens of users of rather expensive IBM PS/2s in the Isle of Man > very happy for a while in the late 1980s and early 1990s. :-) You're very welcome! I know that there were some bids that IBM marketing needed IBMCACHE.SYS to win (millions of dollars) and it was *still* a battle to get it released! > > > There was a *huge* battle within IBM on if it should be released > > and in > > order to do so, it was fairly well hidden. > > I can believe that! I think I read of it in a magazine and thought > "never! I'd know!" -- so I looked and there it was. > > > There was a switch on config.sys statement for IBMCACHE.SYS to turn > > off > > the write-back cache (e.g. writes would always go straight to > > disk). > > As I recall, there was a 30 second timer for the writeback cache so > > that if a disk block was "dirty" for more than 30 seconds it would > > get > > flushed to disk. > > Yes, both true. I think I may have used the write-through switch for > some people, but ISTR it reduced performance a little bit. Just > teaching people to be a bit more patient was sometimes hard -- after > all, this was a tool that appealed to the impatient! > I think for them it was easier to teach them to press C-A-D and then > wait for the RAM check before turning off. > > Or hit C-A-D, let it boot all the way, then turn it off! > > Great bit of work, if I may say so! Yea, not only did I have to write it, but I had to write a series of tests to run through billions of disk operations (and go validate the internal state of the cache) before it could even be considered for release. ;-) BTW, as a bit of copyright paranoia, if you do an ASCII dump of IBMCACHE.SYS, you'll see my 3 initials (GGS) (or it may have been IBM...it's been so long I can't remember). They are actually instructions! It was required at the time to have code embed a text string as actual instructions that get executed. It took me a bit of time to figure out (in x86 assembler) how to generate an appropriate string. The idea was that if someone "cloned" the program and just did a replacement of the string, it would stop working because the string was actually instructions. TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 25 13:49:38 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I apologise for offending you. Sloppiness and insnesitivity on my part, not a deliberate attempt. >> PETSCII/PETASCII character graphics were almost as good as TRS80 character >> graphics! :-) >> https://i2.wp.com/www.the8bitguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Commodore-History-Part-1-The-Pet-0011-PETSCII.png On Mon, 25 May 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > So, yes, PETSCII lets you draw some stuff, but I was only about 12. It > really wasn't enough to grab me for long, not for the price of a car. Character graphics were never an acceptable substitute for bit-mapped. > American computers were all super-expensive in Europe: apparently, in > the USA, people felt that a $1000 computer was affordable. As Peter > Corlett notes, that wasn't even a joke in 1980s Britain. A computer > 1/4 of that price was something a rich family could consider, but a > computer for the masses over here had to be a tenth of that price. I was alarmed, even then, about the discrpancy in marketing. Here, the default TRS80 was $600, which was about 300 pounds, but you could get it without the [ordinary] cassette recorder monitor (which was a tuner-ectomied RCA TV) for $400, which was about 200 pounds. But, instead, it looked as though they just replaced the dollar sign with pound sign, and ignored the exchange rate! So, you paid about twice as much for the machines. I have heard prices of PET: 600 pounds (V $600), Apple: 1200 pounds (V$1200), and TRS80: 500 pounds (V $400 to $600) > I never saw a single working Apple ][ when they were current. I never > saw a working TRS-anything except in Tandy shops (we didn't have > "Radio Shacks" because "shack" isn't a commonly-used word here, I > suppose, and has negative connotations. ham radio shack was slang for wherever a amateur radio hobbyist set up. Other than that, "shack" referred to an improvised/impromptu dwelling, such as ones made of tar paper, so it had similar negative connotations to everybody but amateur radio. When they wanted to move upscale, they set up "Tandy Computer Centers/Stores" to start to get away from the "Radio Shack name. It was ABOUT 1983 that they discontinued using the "Radio Shack" name. Transition is apparent betwen models of the Model 100 and the "Color Computer". > All the machines that the American magazines talked about were unknown > to $REST_OF_WORLD, basically. And, the USA market was oblivious to any offerings elsewhere. I was able to get two used Epson HC-20, which was later marketed in USA as HX-20 (with beige instead of grey case, and removal of Katakana from keyboard aand character ROMs. It had an impressive Microsoft BASIC for its time. Then, I got a friend going to Japan to get me an Epson RC-20 (wrist watch with Z80-like processor, RAM, ROM, and a serial port) NEVER sold in USA. I bought a used Yamaha MSX from Mitchell Waite, and it was the only MSX that I ever saw. Well, I barely saw it - within an hour of getting it, my assistant, who was into music borrowed it permanently. I bought a Sony SMC-70 (3.5" drive, obviously Italian case design, and had had some amazing demonstrations, without actually becoming readily available for sale. I never got an Amstrad, but I was impressed with the 3" disk design, and had some 3" drives. . . . , and a couple of Toshiba T300s (fairly ordinary NON-PC-DOS MS-DOS machine with 720K 5.25" drives; I patched PC-Write's video segment to run on them). At one point, I loaned them to the local USA Toshiba Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging group. > So... ??\_(???)_/?? >> That was a keyboard?? >> I thought that it was just a picture of a keyboard glued on, as a >> suggestion of a possible accessory to purchase. :-) >> Besides, the bottom of the door scrapes it. > In your joke, you highlight what I mean. > You're thinking of a ZX-81. It had a flat keyboard (i.e. just like an > Atari 400) and was wedge-shaped. You are absolutely right. I screwed up. BIG TIME. I apologise. again. My assistant bought a few of the ZX-81s. > This total ignorance of $REST_OF_WORLD's computers is sadly typical in > a mainly-US community like this, but come on, Fred, I know you can do > better. You sadden me, sir. We have a national culture of ehtnocentricity and arrogance. "We're number one!" (particularly in COVID-19!) We have a spectacular level of ignorance and gullibility sometimes! https://www.cnet.com/news/more-than-40-of-republicans-think-bill-gates-will-use-covid-19-vaccine-to-implant-tracking-chips-survey-says/ The Monster Raving Loony party gave up on establishing in USA, because we can be TOO loony, and elect candidates beyond their jokes. > WARNING FOR THE SARCASM IMPAIRED. THIS IS HUMOUR. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CORRECT IT. We wouldn't know humour unless you remove the 'u'! Our FAVORITE COLOR is GRAY. And we use 'z' instead of 's' Our TV "Sit-Coms" can not compare with what are called "Brit-Coms"; Ed O'Neill is quite goos as Al Bundy, but not as good as Richard Wilson as Victor Meldrew. For light reading, I have most of the published writings of Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett. >>> keeping obsolete versions of these vast monolithic OSes (which nobody >>> fully understands any more) maintained and patched for 5, 10, even 15 >>> or so years after release. >> BUT, if any ever achieve stability, support is discontinued, to try >> to force purchase of a newer, even less reliable one. > No, you're thinking of Windows. Absolutely. The more that I use Windoze XP and 7, the less that I hate them; so they want to force me to switch to 10, and probably have to search to find suitable software for what I want. >> I was tempted to get one of Jeri Ellsworth's knock-offs. > I have one. Cost me ??10 on clearance. Very clever little device. I have always been impressed by her silly sense of humour, such as her flip watch and her cup holder. But even more impressed at her demonstrations of homemade transistors and ICs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon May 25 13:51:18 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 19:51:18 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4A540276-98CE-4B4E-ADD9-8088CD1870E2@gmail.com> > On 25 May 2020, at 17:44, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > And yet, despite that, there was a profusion of machines. Z80 and 6502 > and 6809. MS BASIC and MSX. The big American makes: Atari and Tandy > and Apple. The big European makes: Sinclair, Oric, Amstrad. The niche > ones: Sord, Spectravideo, Mattel, VTech/Laser, Dick Smith. The little > British companies: Dragon, Memotech, Camputers, Jupiter, Elan. Quite a few Australians might not share your view that Dick Smith was ?niche?, Europeans may, largely because they?ll have never heard of him in Europe. For proper niche see the RCA-1802 powered COMX-35. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From brain at jbrain.com Mon May 25 13:53:22 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 13:53:22 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 5/25/2020 11:44 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 24 May 2020 at 05:14, Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > >> The serial interface would have been fast enough, if the MOS folks had >> talked to the design team about the bug and squashed it early. But, they >> did not, and on the VIC-20, which did not expect to move many drives, no >> one cared. When the VIC-40 (c64) came out, by then the drive was more >> important, but no one was going to redo the drive again (they tried to >> put a new trace on the IEC bus to enable fast mode later, but it got >> optimized out in final layout in Japan). > I defer. I never owned one. I had a ZX Spectrum and longed for a BBC Micro. Though Jim Butterfield got a few of the details wrong (as we've noticed from other parts of this thread, sometimes history gets modified a bit), the main portion is true.? PET had nice fast 8 bit IEEE-488 drives.? Special cables, expensive, Jack not happy, really not happy when cables got in short supply and cost went up.? Edict: get off that IEEE bus.? designers noted they they could use 6522 serial shift register to pump data at CLK/4, or byte/32 cycles = ~31K/sec.? After the ColorPET decision had been made (Jack: Hey, use those crappy 22 column game video ICs we designed that no one every bought in a color computer for the masses! Use that surplus of 1kB SRAM as well!), the bus went into the design.? Too late to fix silicon, the 6522 issue surfaced. Routines were rewritten to bit bang, going from 1bit/4us to ~1bit/40uS.? 3125bytes/s.? Oh well, only 5kB, few will buy a drive for the VIC anyway, done.? VIC has some success, need a 40 column version, enter 64.? The competition is touting 48kB and such, what can we do? "Well, DRAM comes in 16kB options (not enough to make a talking point) or 64kB (yep, do that!).? Oh, and re-use all the VIC peripherals to save NRE costs! Hmmm, 40 columns is too much data on screen to share the bus with the CPU.? Need to steal cycles from CPU. IEC bus cycle is too short (20uS) and we stall the CPU longer (50uS).? Hmmm, make the bit bang cycle even slower (120uS/bit), or 3 times slower (1000bytes/sec), on a 64kB machine.? Ouch.? Put in a trace for the shift register on the new 6526 which fixed the bug and we'll ship an upgraded KERNAL later.? Done, except Japan didn't see any need for it, so they deleted it.? Argh! > > I personally never saw the appeal in the VIC-20: it was quite > expensive, and 22 columns of text? Come on, you're making fun of me. > What use is that? As noted above, there was a famous meeting (at least for Commodore), where Peddle and others were talking about a color version of the PET.?? Remember, Jack did calculators and typewriters, Peddle had done a lot of the evangelizing for a computer.? But, Peddle was an engineer, and his machines we heavy, expensive, and complicated (dual CPUs in the drive, anyone!).? Others advocated for a cheaper option, somethin in plastic to compete with living room space.? A few folks hacked up a color PET proto, using a video IC that had been designed for game consoles but no one bought it, and pitched that it would work on a TV, was MOS IP, etc. Those folks won. Michael Tomczak(sp?) advocated for the better KB, seeing the ZX81 one and others of the time (the PET chicklet KB as well).? I think they were already thinking of a 40 col machine at that moment, but needed an entry point.? The VIC was it. > Whereas the C64... well, I will quote you out of sequence: > >> I think you just don't agree with what they were doing. Jack was >> selling game machines that had enough computing power to satisfy Mom and >> Dad's edict that the kids not just have a game console. If you wanted >> good use of video or audio, you bought from CBM or the third party. >> BASIC was minimal, because you had to have something to load the game :-) > That is my _point_ here. > > Good graphics, for 1982. Great sound, for the early '80s at all. > Decent keyboard. Some expansion potential. > > But not balanced, because of a deeply crappy BASIC. I guess your point is that you don't agree with Jack's priorities. The VIC was a rush job, costs had to be low.? BASIC v2 just fit in an 8kB ROM, and KERNAL fit in another 8kB.? 8kB ROM was easy to make in house.? Notice they used 2 ROMs instead of 1 16kB one.? It was all about low NRE costs, using stuff off the shelf.? Putting a third 8kB ROM in there for better BASIC was just an unneeded IC, plus someone would need to write the A/V code (CBM did not have a A/V capable BASIC at that time).? No time.? Need to hit CES and ship. Put it on a cart and sell it after the fact.? OK.? Plus putting a third ROM in there would have meant more glue logic to keep the VIC address range out of the way of ROM access (complicated, I'll share later if anyone cares).? THat means more chips.? NO!? :-) > > I do not expect a shitty half-assed effort at a BASIC for one and a > half thousand bucks! You and I had different youths.? I paid $332USD for one in 1982 or something, and BASIC was the last thing on my mind. >> Oh, I think that's a stretch. Because of the system's ubiquity, there >> are plenty of BASIC upgrades available to add the requisite audio and >> video options. BASIC had other issues, Commodore can't take credit for >> giving it a bad name. > [...] >> As a home user of the machine back int he day, I highly disagree. We all >> had fixed the BAD BASIC and slow drive issues a few years after intro. >> By 1984, everyone had fastload or JiffyDOS or SpeeDOS or similar, and >> BASIC 4.0 or even better BASICs were always available. It was a games >> machine, with a rightly limited BASIC (you want more feature, buy the >> add-in. It was like the in app purchases of today's games) > I really don't think that counts. > > 3rd party upgrades or replacements don't signify, because they just > lead to market fragmentation. Book publishers wouldn't do books of > programming tips for some niche BASIC extension that only 1% of the > market has. Magazines wouldn't print tutorials and listings for it. We know that now, but at the time, I don't think that was known. Regardless, you assume most early teens cared about the BASIC maturity, and I posit they did not.? C64 buyers bought for the games, and folks quickly moved to ML if they wanted A/V.? Maybe in your neck of the woods, things were different, but US buyers bought it to play. > > No. It's what's in the box that counts. > > It was a massive, egregious, outstanding corner that was cut on a > fifteen hundred dollar machine, not just a detail to be swept under > the rug. > > And yes, I think it really _did_ set the expectations of millions as > to what BASIC was. > > Certainly when I was a spotty 13YO schoolboy, with friends learning > programming, and the Commodore owners were surprised to learn that > those of us with Sinclair or Oric machines, or a bit later Amstrads -- > you may well have never seen or heard of any of those; look 'em up, > they're interesting -- could do stuff like draw shapes and play tunes > right in BASIC. I remember it differently.? We oohed for a few minutes at the BASIC command, then we just copied an ML routine from COMPUTE's! Gazette into our app to get even fast circles and squares, and moved on. BASIC (and ML) was a means to an end.? We wanted our masterpiece to emerge, and we really didn't care how it materialized.? We even looked at the more complete BASICs as a crutch (which I actually think they were/are), since those programmers never dipped into ML to get the real speed! (Yeah, I know we vehemently will disagree on that point, but we all have our opinions) > >> Oh come on. The Osborne had the same size screen and sold well. Dipping >> their toe in that market to sell hardware doesn't seem such a stretch to me. > It was, as you yourself say, a relatively cheap home/games computer, > not a business one. At the time, there was no distinction.? There were personal computers, and some people were using them for business.? Apple IIs were finding work, why not the Commodore? > I got that. > > What I was trying to convey was that, ISTM, it's evidence that > Commodore didn't really know to whom it was selling, what those > customers wanted, or how to exploit its massive market share. I'll partially concede, at least after Jack left.? I think Jack knew what people wanted.? He made, after all, one of the highest selling home computers of the day, if not for all time.? He wanted the own the rest of the market, which the 116 would do by kicking the remaining low cost entries to the curb.? BUt, once he started phoning it in, while secretly planning his departure, he did not have a protege to take the reins. > But so few of them put the effort into a decent programming language. > Not "let us help educate the children because they are our future". > No, instead, "screw 'em, they're kids, we just have to bullshit their > parents." I don't think things were that malicious.? I see it more as "Hey! Market opportunity.? How fast can we enter this space?". And we, hungry teens with persuasion skills and our parent's concern that if their child didn't learn this emerging computer thing they'd be destined for poverty for all time made sales fly! > > The long-term result was tarnishing the name of one of the greatest > educational languages ever written, and certainly by far the most > successful compared to Logo or Smalltalk or anything else. I can appreciate your advocacy of BASIC.? I cannot agree with it, and I liked BASIC (on many machines) growing up.? Once I entered software development as a vocation, I found BASIC had set up bad habits that it took years to unwind.? I still have a fondness for the language, but I don't think it was all that educational.? It was brute force, overly verbose at times, hard to follow in programs of anything above trivial sizes, etc.? But, it must have it's sheering section, and so I defer to you. > I am not so sure. I don't think a 64KB micro in 1982 was "bare > minumum" of anything, TBH. It was a relatively high-end machine for > its time. As noted above, by the time the 64 came out, 16kB was somewhat the low end of memory (CoCo I think was 32kB, Apple II had 48kB, I think the Ataris were getting there, TI had 16kB (barely, but I digress), etc.? So, 16kB (8 16kbx1 DRAMs) was not going to be a selling point.? 64kb DRAMs were the next thing up, so it was the next hurdle to clear.? 32kB would have been twice the ICs, hard to fit in the NRE-reused VIC-20 case, and Jack was good at negotiating for volume.? Next. > > The Sinclairs were bare-minimum low-cost kit. Not Commodore. Yes, I'll agree when I think of bare-minimum, my first thought is the Sinclair.? Maybe I should rephrase to be "the minimum to put in the machine that will offer selling points over competitors".? At the time, few really talked about CPU speed, and the whole 4MHz Z80/8080 versus 1MHz 6502 argument had everyone confused, so memory size was the big advertisement draw.? 40 columns was still respectable on a computer then, and not needing a special monitor was a big bonus.? I think people implicitly understood that 80 columns would not work on a TV, but not super sure.? Graphics and Sound were big selling points as well, but the marketing copy only had to note they existed, not that they were trivial to use on first boot :-)? So, Jack added what the competitors were advertising. > > > I still think it was a bad idea, TBH. If you mean putting the Z80 in there? Bil agrees with you.? He hated the entire idea, and the engineering effort he expended to do it.? But, when Marketing has promised it, evidently at Commodore, you made it happen.? Hats off the engineers at CSG/MOS/CBM. Since I've sometimes had to do the bidding of the pointy haired boss, I admire the technical aspects of the decision.? But, I agree with you it was a bad idea, if only because Commodore didn't vertically integrate the Z80, so it had to be sourced from Zilog, and it was lots more expensive that the 6502.? So, instead of hanging this cart off the back for the few dozen folks who actually cared to do CP/M on the 128, and paid for the privilege of the Z80, CBM had to source one for each 128 and keep the overall costs down in spite of it. Legend goes that CBM Europe threatened to rip the z80 out of every C128 they sold in Europe, I think because they had dissed it in competitor systems like the Sinclair, etc. (You can't actually do so, as the Z80 actually runs first in the C128, to work around an issue with another almost never used Commodore cartridge that had to work on Day 1: it's either Magic Voice or Super Expander, I forget which. Again, Commodore promised *ALL* Commodore released carts would be compatible [ except the CP/M cart, which they could ignore, on a technicality], and Bil had to use the Z80 to boot the machine to accommodate that one cart!) -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon May 25 13:59:31 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 13:59:31 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <2f94acdc-cb98-1359-8179-a7d276e70e36@jbrain.com> On 5/25/2020 1:53 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > ?IEC bus cycle is too short (20uS) half cycle http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/faq/trivia/cbm-trivia-08.txt Question $07B gives more detail. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 25 14:56:15 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Standard Cocktail Napkin Size [WAS: RE: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC)} In-Reply-To: <009a01d632c2$189599f0$49c0cdd0$@computer.org> References: <009a01d632c2$189599f0$49c0cdd0$@computer.org> Message-ID: >>> The final media size was determined by Shugart Engineering led by Al >>> Chou from the size of the 8-track tape drive that the 5?-inch FDD was >>> to replace in Wang and other systems. As near as I can tell it was >>> not the same size as a ?standard? cocktail napkin. >> "standard"??!? >> "I believe in standards. Everyone should have [a unique] one [of their >> own]." - George Morrow I have seen napkins that are about 5.25". On Mon, 25 May 2020, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > I did attempt to see if there is a "standard" cocktail napkin size and as > best I can tell it is today 5-inches square not 5?-inches square. > > A friend who is a veteran of the paper products industry provided me an > actual cocktail napkin circa 1980 (a promotional give away for his business) > that he recalls was procured to the then standard size which I measured as > 5-inches square. Apparently cocktail napkins have not deflated over the > intervening 40 years :-) > > This supports Adkisson's recollection that the customer wanted something > about the size of a cocktail napkin and Chou's description of the > development process that tried to maximize the size of the disk that could > be received in a drive which in turn was designed to fit into the then > existing 8-track tape drive slot. While 5" seems to be "standard", here is 5.25": https://www.amazon.com/Beistle-S20936AZ3-Snowflake-Beverage-Napkins/dp/B076QC44WJ/ and here is 5" x 5.25" https://www.amazon.com/SB-Design-Studio-D4430-Beverage/dp/B07R15GNGX/ Cocktail napkin HOLDERS seem to be 5.25", supporting 5" for the napkin. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 25 14:58:11 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:58:11 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <4A540276-98CE-4B4E-ADD9-8088CD1870E2@gmail.com> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <4A540276-98CE-4B4E-ADD9-8088CD1870E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e40ddd2-e175-0bec-9e63-8212a9f441f3@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/20 11:51 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > For proper niche see the RCA-1802 powered COMX-35. > There is some talk of building a replica https://twitter.com/TubeTimeUS/status/1264585081659641857 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon May 25 15:21:03 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 13:21:03 -0700 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0LvUd3-1iwJkI0Gm3-010ZMp@mrelay.perfora.net> >I hadn't thought about IBMCACHE.SYS in *years*.? I wrote it in its>entirety (there's even a patent that covers some of its operation). I>was in an AdTech (Advanced Technology) group at the time and was>looking at how to make disk operations faster in >DOS at the time when I>came up with the idea.>There was a *huge* battle within IBM on if it >should be released and in>order to do so, it was fairly well hidden.Guy,It is so well hidden I don't think I have ever seen it. Was it part of pc-dos? If so what version?-Ali From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon May 25 15:36:54 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 13:36:54 -0700 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: <0LvUd3-1iwJkI0Gm3-010ZMp@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0LvUd3-1iwJkI0Gm3-010ZMp@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2020-05-25 at 13:21 -0700, Ali wrote: > > >I hadn't thought about IBMCACHE.SYS in *years*. I wrote it in its > >entirety (there's even a patent that covers some of its operation). > I > >was in an AdTech (Advanced Technology) group at the time and was > >looking at how to make disk operations faster in >DOS at the time > when I > >came up with the idea. > > >There was a *huge* battle within IBM on if it >should be released > and in > >order to do so, it was fairly well hidden. > > > Guy, > > It is so well hidden I don't think I have ever seen it. Was it part > of pc-dos? If so what version? No, it came on one of the diskettes supplied with PS/2 systems though it would work on any system. That is, it didn't do anything to detect that it was running on a PS/2 system. There was a lot of discussion to have the "core" of IBMCACHE actually in BIOS and a tiny .SYS file to allocate the memory above 1MB. Most interest in it faded when Microsoft started shipping smartdrv.sys which IMHO was not as good as IBMCACHE, but smartdrv.sys came with DOS. TTFN - Guy From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon May 25 15:46:52 2020 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:46:52 -0500 Subject: Thinking of selling my PDP's Message-ID: I am getting closer to retirement (although not close enough) and I'm considering selling off my PDP stuff, especially if I downsize and move. Everything's working, but I just no longer DO anything with either system... the adventure was acquiring all the pieces, fixing them and learning the software :) Anyhow I have an 8/A with cloned Programmer's Panel (Vince Slyngstad and I made it around 2006) and limited function panel, 32K RAM board (also have core), Philipp Hachtmann's USB interface board, RX01 floppy, two RL02's, and a high-speed (optical) reel-to-reel paper tape reader. OS/8 is up and running. Several spare RL02 packs. It's all in a tall DEC rack with an H-(something) power control box. The ASR-33 is not included, I'm keeping that. Also an 11/23+ (11/03 chassis) in a corporate cabinet with two RL02's, a 16-line serial interface, VT-220 terminal. Also an RQDX3 which is connected to a loose 3.5" TEAC floppy drive. Have RT-11XM, RT-11SJ and TSX-Plus 6.50 (all 16 timesharing ports are working too). So, I am wondering if there's any market for them (preferably as complete systems). Shipping would be difficult due to the size/weight (I'm in rural south central Missouri). I'm not looking to give them away, or to part out, but would entertain reasonable package deals rather than deal with the "LQQK! RARE!!" bull on ebay. I can send pics to interested parties. Let me know, thanks! Charles From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 25 16:13:13 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 14:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: <0LvUd3-1iwJkI0Gm3-010ZMp@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0LvUd3-1iwJkI0Gm3-010ZMp@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: > I hadn't thought about IBMCACHE.SYS in *years*.?? I wrote it in > its entirety (there's even a patent that covers some of its operation). > I was in an AdTech (Advanced Technology) group at the time and > was looking at how to make disk operations faster in DOS at the time > when I came up with the idea. There was a *huge* battle within IBM on if > it should be released and in order to do so, it was fairly well > hidden. I think that I recall a mention of REFERENCE disk of PS/2? (NOT model 25 or 30, which didn't have extended memory) Can IBMCACHE co-exist with HIMEM.SYS? Or require it? Or the A20 support needed by Windows 3.10? When SMARTDRV was activated, did it disable IBMCACHE? or conflict with it? Microsoft, with SMARTDRV, found out the consequences of write cacheing if you don't teach or succeed in teaching people to do a proper shutdown. SMARTDRV, in addition to being in DOS 6.00 was loaded and activated by SETUP of WINDOWS 3.10. If a write error occured during Windows installation, SMARTDRV had already prematurely reported successful write, so there was no way to continue and go back and fix that file. You could "RETRY" (with no success), "ABORT" and restart the installation with no DIRectory or files having successfully copied. But, you could NOT "IGNORE" or "FAIL" and then go back and manually copy just the file that had failed. I was on the Win3.1 BETA; Microsoft support's response was, "THAT is a hardware problem; not our concern". I suggested that NOT dealing with it would be costly. My solution was to place a dummy file (BADSECS.DAT) where the error was (which neither SSTOR nor SPINRITE had been able to find. Shutting off the machine prematurely, power glitch, etc. gave disk corruption, which was blamed on disk compression, since that was the most "VISIBLE" thing that users were aware of. When my girlfriend went back to college, she would stand next to the printer, with her coat on, pulling on the paper to get her homework out to leave for class. She would hit the power switch of the computer as soon as the paper came out. Failing to wait for SMARTDRV's write cacheing corrupted stuff. In addition to write cacheing, SMARTDRV also optimized the sequence of the writes, (it is faster to write all of the directory sectors and then all of the data sectors, rather than bounce around doing them in their original sequence) so sometimes she would get DIRectory entries written without file content. "Ever since I installed DOS6 with disk compression, I keep getting bad files!" There was a media frenzy about "Microsoft disk compression currupts disks". Microsoft had to release free "Step-Up" from MS-DOS 6.00 to 6.20, then 6.21 (identical but without compression due to Stacker lawsuit), then 6.22 (same but with non-infringing compression. The "repairs to disk compression" (which was never the actual problem) of DOS 6.00 consisted of 1) not enabling write cacheing by default in SMARTDRV 2) IF write cacheing was enabled on the machine in SMARTDRV: A) do not resequence the writes in SMARTDRV B) do NOT display the DOS prompt when closing an application program, until all buffers were written by SMARTDRV 6.2x also included patches to a few other long-standing problems. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon May 25 16:17:16 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 22:17:16 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A9BD6D8-64A4-4AE8-83D1-FF856899AB17@gmail.com> > On 25 May 2020, at 15:17, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Since we don't have anything called Tic-tac-toe in the UK -- the game > is called "Noughts and Crosses" -- it took me a little while to work > out what it was and what it was doing, but once I did, I could play > against it. On a 9x9 grid the game is less trivial. Wait, PETs didn?t have graphics and Tic Tac Toe didn?t exist? Where did you LIVE? -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon May 25 16:19:23 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 22:19:23 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <9e40ddd2-e175-0bec-9e63-8212a9f441f3@bitsavers.org> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <4A540276-98CE-4B4E-ADD9-8088CD1870E2@gmail.com> <9e40ddd2-e175-0bec-9e63-8212a9f441f3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On 25 May 2020, at 20:58, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/25/20 11:51 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> For proper niche see the RCA-1802 powered COMX-35. > > There is some talk of building a replica > > https://twitter.com/TubeTimeUS/status/1264585081659641857 > > Oh! Yes, I spotted that but didn?t reply, thanks for reminding me! -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon May 25 21:48:35 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 03:48:35 +0100 Subject: Standard Cocktail Napkin Size [WAS: RE: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <009a01d632c2$189599f0$49c0cdd0$@computer.org> Message-ID: On 25/05/2020 20:56, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> The final media size was determined by Shugart Engineering led by Al >>>> Chou from the size of the 8-track tape drive that the 5?-inch FDD was >>>> to replace in Wang and other systems.? As near as I can tell it was >>>> not the same size as a ?standard? cocktail napkin. >>> "standard"??!? >>> "I believe in standards.? Everyone should have [a unique] one [of their >>> own]." - George Morrow I have seen napkins that are about 5.25". > > On Mon, 25 May 2020, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> I did attempt to see if there is a "standard" cocktail napkin size >> and as >> best I can tell it is today 5-inches square not 5?-inches square. >> >> A friend who is a veteran of the paper products industry provided me an >> actual cocktail napkin circa 1980 (a promotional give away for his >> business) >> that he recalls was procured to the then standard size which I >> measured as >> 5-inches square.? Apparently cocktail napkins have not deflated over the >> intervening 40 years :-) >> >> This supports Adkisson's recollection that the customer wanted something >> about the size of a cocktail napkin and Chou's description of the >> development process that tried to maximize the size of the disk that >> could >> be received in a drive which in turn was designed to fit into the then >> existing 8-track tape drive slot. > > > While 5" seems to be "standard", here is 5.25": > https://www.amazon.com/Beistle-S20936AZ3-Snowflake-Beverage-Napkins/dp/B076QC44WJ/ > > > and here is 5" x 5.25" > https://www.amazon.com/SB-Design-Studio-D4430-Beverage/dp/B07R15GNGX/ > > > Cocktail napkin HOLDERS seem to be 5.25", supporting 5" for the napkin. > 5.25" = 3U (Standard rack size) From cctalk at snarc.net Mon May 25 21:48:40 2020 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 22:48:40 -0400 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20200524050607.37169148092A@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: > Some things are easy to check, like the fact that the Z80 came out in 1976 when Woz was already finishing the Apple II so he couldn't have considered using it for the Apple I. I haven't personally looked into whether he considered using the Z80, but your statement there is oversimplified. Define "came out". If you mean "announced in public" or "officially went on sale", then that doesn't prove anything. It is quite plausible that anyone in/around Silicon Valley and/or in the Homebrew Computer Club knew about the Z80 before it officially "came out". But, yes, history IS hard for exactly these kinds of reasons. Too many people are concerned with "first" and "invent", etc., when what really matters is generations of tech and overall impact. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue May 26 00:48:17 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 22:48:17 -0700 Subject: history is hard (was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC) In-Reply-To: References: <0LvUd3-1iwJkI0Gm3-010ZMp@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <56379689eca16370fb2acaa4ef8d0820379f3dfa.camel@shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2020-05-25 at 14:13 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I hadn't thought about IBMCACHE.SYS in *years*. I wrote it in > > its entirety (there's even a patent that covers some of its > operation). > > I was in an AdTech (Advanced Technology) group at the time and > > was looking at how to make disk operations faster in DOS at the > time > > when I came up with the idea. There was a *huge* battle within IBM > on if > > it should be released and in order to do so, it was fairly well > > hidden. > > I think that I recall a mention of REFERENCE disk of PS/2? > (NOT model 25 or 30, which didn't have extended memory) > > > Can IBMCACHE co-exist with HIMEM.SYS? > Or require it? > Or the A20 support needed by Windows 3.10? > When SMARTDRV was activated, did it disable IBMCACHE? or conflict > with it? > No, IBMCACHE was standalone. As I recall (I wish I'd kept a copy of the source), you could tell it how much (and starting address) of where it would use memory > 1MB (I think there was also a mode that allowed you to use it < 1MB as well). That was done to allow for co-existence with HIMEM.SYS. When the write back cache was enabled (it would always allow write- thru), in addition to intercepting INT 13 (and timer) it would also intercept INT 21 so that if you did a "close" it would immediately flush out the dirty buffers. One of the differences between between IBMCACHE and SMARTDRV as I recall (I really didn't spend too much time thinking about SMARTDRV) was that IBMCACHE was block based versus SMARTDRV being track based. It allowed for much better caching (from my own analysis when I was developing it). It also allowed for caching blocks that had bad sectors (which was one of the patents for IBMCACHE). When IBMCACHE did a write out of dirty blocks they were always in sorted order (the list of dirty blocks was kept in sorted order). I recall playing around with dual elevator algorithms (it knew where the last read/write was) so it could do the writes that required the fewest/shortest seeks. It turned out now to be a huge win (for DOS) versus the complexity, so I never released that. I even had a version that cached floppies (but would *never* enable the write-back cache for devices that it thought were removable). If it detected a disk change it would flush the cache for that drive. TTFN - Guy From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 05:06:16 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:06:16 +0200 Subject: 3 stylewriter printers available for pickup only, Fairfield, IA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 20:42, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I find Gmail > sends a lot of group posts and replies straight to the spam folder. If you filter ClassicCmp.org replies into a folder, then there is a checkbox in the "filter messages like these" screen that says "never mark as spam". I think you will find that is the answer to your problem. I have a zero % false-detection rate for CCmp replies on Gmail for over a decade. Very occasionally there is a label saying "this message would be marked as spam except for your rule". Incidentally, yes, I am using the web interface -- also note that it is able to bottom-post plain-text replies just fine. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 06:43:48 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:43:48 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 20:49, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I apologise for offending you. Sloppiness and insnesitivity on my part, > not a deliberate attempt. Just saddened, Fred, not offended. I never had a ZX81, but the door-wedge joke is as old as the machine. I think its historical position as the first usable computer for under ?100 is sealed, though, so if you're gonna use the joke, get it right... "Knock knock!" "Who's there?" "How many Germans does it take to change a light bulb?" ... Doesn't work. Same thing. I did show my late Uncle Tom how to use the ZX81 he bought himself, though. Using knowledge I'd gained fooling around with PETs at school. I typed in a Lunar Lander type game, saved it to cassette, and got it working, as I recall. He was deeply impressed; he had planned to return the machine as faulty. His widow, my Aunt Valerie, is 85 now and just remarried. Good for her! I vaguely hope she still has the ZX81 and lets me have it... I'd love to own the first privately-own computer I ever used as a child. > Character graphics were never an acceptable substitute for bit-mapped. Agreed. And whereas it's easy to forget now, I think the roles of colour and sound in gaining the attention of children is underestimated. I look at the specs and capabilities of something like the Acorn Atom in 1980 -- _way_ ahead of a ZX80 or ZX81, and to me now, looking back, far more desirable (and far more expensive, of course). But to me at 12? Black and white, silent? REPEAT...UNTIL loops? *BOOOORING!* > > Here, the default TRS80 was $600, which was about 300 pounds, > but you could get it without the [ordinary] cassette recorder monitor > (which was a tuner-ectomied RCA TV) for $400, which was about 200 pounds. > But, instead, it looked as though they just replaced the dollar sign with > pound sign, and ignored the exchange rate! So, you paid about twice as > much for the machines. I have heard prices of PET: 600 pounds (V $600), > Apple: 1200 pounds (V$1200), and TRS80: 500 pounds (V $400 to $600) Yep, that was standard practice. I am sure I've mentioned it before, but around 1984-1985 and possibly for a while after, there was a company in London that sold US-model Apple Macintosh computers for about 2/3 of the price of Apple UK. The way they operated was: ? you placed your order ? an employee took a taxi to Heathrow Airport and bought a walk-on ticket to New York (NB: we don't really *do* walk-on tickets in Europe. Almost all flights involve crossing an international boundary, customs, passport control, etc. So you pre-planned it, as it meant ~2h of security at each end. Ergo, walk-on tickets are super-expensive.) (P.S. to N.B. the Schengen zone has somewhat reduced this in continental Europe, but the security requirements and checks are still onerous.) ? the staffer got into a taxi from JFK to the nearest Apple dealer, bought a Mac cash. ? the staffer got a taxi back to the airport, while opening the box in the cab so it wasn't new sealed goods which attract import taxes ? the staffer flew back to Heathrow ? you collected your Mac from the shop This *still* meant a 15-25% profit margin on a new Mac, since UK prices were 2.5x higher than UK prices. The price differential of about ?1000 allowed for a decent profit of a ?200 or so after all the taxi fares and the air ticket. This is why Apple introduced a policy of limiting its international warrantees to people living in the country where the machine was bought -- until jet-setting businessmen complained, when it was reintroduced as a perk of your rather expensive computer. > ham radio shack was slang for wherever a amateur radio hobbyist set up. > Other than that, "shack" referred to an improvised/impromptu dwelling, > such as ones made of tar paper, so it had similar negative connotations to > everybody but amateur radio. When they wanted to move upscale, they set > up "Tandy Computer Centers/Stores" to start to get away from the "Radio > Shack name. It was ABOUT 1983 that they discontinued using the "Radio > Shack" name. Transition is apparent betwen models of the Model 100 and > the "Color Computer". Aha! Bear in mind, as I said, we didn't have most TRS-80 models here. The CoCo was the 6809 one, right? The underlying reference design was put in a different case and sold as the Dragon 32 here. https://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2012/08/01/the_dragon_32_is_30_years_old/ I *think* but am not sure that the TRS-80 range existed but barely sold -- it was so expensive for a somewhat indifferent spec that non-US machines looked far more competitive. One model was related to the Dragon. Another was related to the Hong Kong-made Video Genie: http://knut.one/VGS.htm I never saw one, but I know they were around -- I saw mention of them in the magazines and things. > And, the USA market was oblivious to any offerings elsewhere. Indeed. But as discerning admirers of vintage kit, nowadays, we know better, right? Right? > I was able to get two used Epson HC-20, which was later marketed in USA as > HX-20 (with beige instead of grey case, and removal of Katakana from > keyboard aand character ROMs. It had an impressive Microsoft BASIC for > its time. > Then, I got a friend going to Japan to get me an Epson RC-20 (wrist watch > with Z80-like processor, RAM, ROM, and a serial port) NEVER sold in USA. Epson _printers_ were very common here, indeed the defacto standard for years for dot-matrix devices. Still are very common in inkjets. They sold lots of PCs in the early days, too -- before Amstrad came out with PCs such as the PC1512 and 1640 which drove the price down by about half. Suddenly everything else seemed uncompetitive. > I bought a used Yamaha MSX from Mitchell Waite, and it was the only MSX > that I ever saw. Well, I barely saw it - within an hour of getting it, my > assistant, who was into music borrowed it permanently. > I bought a Sony SMC-70 (3.5" drive, obviously Italian case design, and had > had some amazing demonstrations, without actually becoming readily > available for sale. The MSX 1 machines were here, but fairly rare. MSX1 did not impress me. MSX2 looked great, very impressive, on paper, and MSX2+ and Turbo-R were amazing -- some of the most-upgraded 8-bitters ever. > I never got an Amstrad, but I was impressed with the 3" disk design, and > had some 3" drives. Hitachi designed I believe. > . . . , and a couple of Toshiba T300s (fairly ordinary NON-PC-DOS MS-DOS > machine with 720K 5.25" drives; I patched PC-Write's video segment to run > on them). At one point, I loaned them to the local USA Toshiba Nuclear > Magnetic Resonance Imaging group. I don't think I have _ever_ seen a *desktop* Toshiba! Hugely important company in notebooks/laptops and even some huge clamshell not-really-portable gas-plasma machines. > You are absolutely right. I screwed up. BIG TIME. > I apologise. again. OK, OK! > We have a national culture of ehtnocentricity and arrogance. "We're > number one!" (particularly in COVID-19!) True. Mind you, closely rivalled by the UK who are catching up fast. I am glad I left. > We have a spectacular level of ignorance and gullibility sometimes! > https://www.cnet.com/news/more-than-40-of-republicans-think-bill-gates-will-use-covid-19-vaccine-to-implant-tracking-chips-survey-says/ It is to weep. > The Monster Raving Loony party gave up on establishing in USA, because we > can be TOO loony, and elect candidates beyond their jokes. :-D > > WARNING FOR THE SARCASM IMPAIRED. THIS IS HUMOUR. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CORRECT IT. > > We wouldn't know humour unless you remove the 'u'! Our FAVORITE COLOR is > GRAY. And we use 'z' instead of 's' Most Brits do not realize it [sic] but all the 'z' spellings are legal in British English too. I use them from preference, partly as I work in US English, partly because I enjoy hand-writing a cursive Z, and partly because I enjoy annoying people. https://www.learnenglish.de/spelling/spelling-ise-ize.html > Our TV "Sit-Coms" can not compare with what are called "Brit-Coms"; Ed > O'Neill is quite goos as Al Bundy, but not as good as Richard Wilson as > Victor Meldrew. Ah, there you go. I veer the other way. There was great UK/ TV comedy in the '70s and '80s, a little in the '90s (e.g. Father Ted), and very little since, IMHO. > For light reading, I have most of the published writings of Douglas > Adams and Terry Pratchett. As former president of the Official Douglas Adams Appreciation Society, I approve of this message. > > No, you're thinking of Windows. > > Absolutely. > The more that I use Windoze XP and 7, the less that I hate them; so they > want to force me to switch to 10, and probably have to search to find > suitable software for what I want. I put Windows Thin PC on an old Sony Vaio P recently and yes, I had forgotten how much I liked it... but I am happier with MacOS and Linux now. > I have always been impressed by her silly sense of humour, such as her > flip watch and her cup holder. But even more impressed at her > demonstrations of homemade transistors and ICs. Very true. Also the distinction of being the only person ever fired from Valve, I believe...? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 06:46:11 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:46:11 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <4A540276-98CE-4B4E-ADD9-8088CD1870E2@gmail.com> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <4A540276-98CE-4B4E-ADD9-8088CD1870E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 20:51, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Quite a few Australians might not share your view that Dick Smith was ?niche?, Europeans may, largely because they?ll have never heard of him in Europe. For proper niche see the RCA-1802 powered COMX-35. I do remember the COMX-35, yes. I think you had the Laser V200 version on display at a retro computing fair in Croydon in about 2007. I was amazed to see and try one for the first time in real life, and told you that I wrote most of the Wikipedia page on it... To which you commented that yes, that sounded like Wikipedia all right. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 06:57:17 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:57:17 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <7A9BD6D8-64A4-4AE8-83D1-FF856899AB17@gmail.com> References: <7A9BD6D8-64A4-4AE8-83D1-FF856899AB17@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 23:17, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > > Wait, PETs didn?t have graphics and Tic Tac Toe didn?t exist? Where did you LIVE? The _name_ was new to me. & the Isle of Man. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 09:50:03 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:50:03 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 20:53, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Too late to fix silicon, the 6522 issue surfaced. What 6522 issue? This is way more depth about a machine I never owned than I personally ever knew, I have to admit... > Oh, and re-use all the VIC peripherals to save NRE costs! I had to look that up. Still, that degree of backwards-compatibility helps adoption of a new model. ZX Spectrum owners could keep their ZX Printer from their ZX81, for instance, and BASIC programs would still run. (Although I think you had to re-enter them all -- not sure about tape storage compatibility.) > Done, except Japan > didn't see any need for it, so they deleted it. Argh! But I thought the Japanese model didn't sell? > As noted above, there was a famous meeting (at least for Commodore), > where Peddle and others were talking about a color version of the PET. News to me! > Remember, Jack did calculators and typewriters, Peddle had done a lot of > the evangelizing for a computer. But, Peddle was an engineer, and his > machines we heavy, expensive, and complicated (dual CPUs in the drive, > anyone!). I must admit, even in 1983 or something, that seemed extravagant to me. I know that the Apple LaserWriter was a more powerful computer than the Mac that drove it, but there were sound engineering reasons for that -- but most 8-bit machines' standard floppy drives didn't have CPUs, so why did the Commodore ones need them? Later I learned about Woz' ingenuity in the Apple ][ drive design. I appreciate that it was a machine from 5 full years before my ZX Spectrum, but still, for all the stories about the amazing ingenious cost-savings in the Apple ][, it was a very expensive computer indeed when I was a schoolboy. Perhaps the single most expensive home computer there was. > A few folks hacked up a color PET > proto, using a video IC that had been designed for game consoles but no > one bought it, and pitched that it would work on a TV, was MOS IP, etc. > Those folks won. Michael Tomczak(sp?) advocated for the better KB, > seeing the ZX81 one and others of the time (the PET chicklet KB as > well). I think they were already thinking of a 40 col machine at that > moment, but needed an entry point. The VIC was it. Aha, I see. Well, for all that it didn't appeal to me, I think it was a decent design and it sold well. _At the time_ the deficiency of the 1541 disk drive didn't seem important -- it was a motorcycle-priced accessory for a car-priced computer, so almost nobody I knew owned one. It was extravagant beyond imagination. But given that the C64 was massively better than the VIC-20 in every other way, the fact that it had the same BASIC seemed a massive flaw. And, as has been pointed out, there were speedup options for the C64's disks. A better replacement BASIC is one thing -- if you don't have it, then you can't use BASIC listings that require it, so the mass market will only support the lowest common denominator. But a faster disk drive -- why not? So long as they can load the same disks as everyone else, fine. It doesn't move the baseline so it's not a problem. > I guess your point is that you don't agree with Jack's priorities. The > VIC was a rush job, costs had to be low. BASIC v2 just fit in an 8kB > ROM, and KERNAL fit in another 8kB. 8kB ROM was easy to make in house. > Notice they used 2 ROMs instead of 1 16kB one. It was all about low NRE > costs, using stuff off the shelf. Putting a third 8kB ROM in there for > better BASIC was just an unneeded IC, plus someone would need to write > the A/V code (CBM did not have a A/V capable BASIC at that time). But CBM didn't write it in the first place, did they? It's MS BASIC. I've read about the ROM sizes before, so there, I concede. My personal reference points are the Spectrum and the BBC Micro. In the Spectrum, there's no split between OS and BASIC -- they're the same chunk of code, and it all fits in 16 KB leaving 48 KB of memory map free for RAM. The initial models of Spectrum (16KB & 48KB) had no bank switching support at all, AFAIK. The Spectrum 128 had the same BASIC (with a few extra commands to handle a RAMdisk and sound chip) but a better _editor_ -- so it just had 2 different ROMs and paged them in and out according to what mode it was in, since it needed bank-switching anyway to support the RAMdisk. The sad thing was that Sinclair didn't include the better graphics modes from the failed US model Spectrum, the Timex-Sinclair 2068. This also had the ability to page RAM in in place of the ROM, to run CP/M -- something the Spectrum didn't get until the Amstrad Spectrum +3 in 1987. To this day I see the Spectrum 128 as a massive missed opportunity -- if they'd only included the improvements from the only other official successor to the original model, it would have been a much more capable and more desirable machine. Anyway, back to 6502 machines: the BBC Micro split the OS (MOS) and BASIC (BBC BASIC) into different ROMs, just as the Commie 64 did. However, Acorn's ROMs were 16 KB each not 8 KB each. That meant that with both MOS and BBC BASIC paged in, the base model BBC Micro had only 32 KB of memory map left for RAM, and that really wasn't enough. Its highest-res graphics mode took ?20 KB of RAM, leaving a paltry 11KB for programs. But I guess all this is unknown and irrelevant in the USA, where Acorn barely sold at all and Sinclair did poorly. Given that the functionality of the Commodore OS and BASIC seemed so feeble compared to that of the Beeb, I remain surprised to this day that CBM couldn't squeeze all that into 16KB. > You and I had different youths. I paid $332USD for one in 1982 or > something, and BASIC was the last thing on my mind. Even if ?1=$2 back then, that's still twice what my parents paid for my first Spectrum, a 2nd hand rubber-keyboard 48 KB model. When you bear in mind that most things in the UK cost more than in the UK -- US gasoline is about ?-? of the price of European petrol, a $10 pair of Wranglers would cost ?40 in the UK, etc. -- then you can see that you were buying a much more expensive computer than I was. > We know that now, but at the time, I don't think that was known. Fair. > Regardless, you assume most early teens cared about the BASIC maturity, > and I posit they did not. C64 buyers bought for the games, and folks > quickly moved to ML if they wanted A/V. Maybe in your neck of the > woods, things were different, but US buyers bought it to play. Also fair. It's all most British schoolkids wanted, yes. I collected games like some kids collected stamps: it was fun to have a good collection, swap and trade, to have the latest or rarities -- but you don't actually _use_ the stamps in your collection, do you? I didn't actually _play_ all the games. Most I loaded once, had a look and then never opened again. > I remember it differently. We oohed for a few minutes at the BASIC > command, then we just copied an ML routine from COMPUTE's! Gazette into > our app to get even fast circles and squares, and moved on. BASIC (and > ML) was a means to an end. We wanted our masterpiece to emerge, and we > really didn't care how it materialized. We even looked at the more > complete BASICs as a crutch (which I actually think they were/are), > since those programmers never dipped into ML to get the real speed! > (Yeah, I know we vehemently will disagree on that point, but we all have > our opinions) No, it's legitimate. I looked at machine code and decided not to bother. It was too hard, and what I wanted to do was explore coding -- patterns, fractals and cellular automata and things. I had no interest in writing games and still don't, so I wasn't overly concerned with execution speed. Instead I bought Beta BASIC, which gave me 64-column text, named procedures and so on and I was happy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_BASIC > At the time, there was no distinction. There were personal computers, > and some people were using them for business. Apple IIs were finding > work, why not the Commodore? Oh well. Seems absurd to me, but hey. > I'll partially concede, at least after Jack left. I think Jack knew > what people wanted. He made, after all, one of the highest selling home > computers of the day, if not for all time. He wanted the own the rest > of the market, which the 116 would do by kicking the remaining low cost > entries to the curb. BUt, once he started phoning it in, while secretly > planning his departure, he did not have a protege to take the reins. Good point. > I don't think things were that malicious. I see it more as "Hey! Market > opportunity. How fast can we enter this space?". And we, hungry teens > with persuasion skills and our parent's concern that if their child > didn't learn this emerging computer thing they'd be destined for poverty > for all time made sales fly! *Nod* > I can appreciate your advocacy of BASIC. I cannot agree with it, and I > liked BASIC (on many machines) growing up. Once I entered software > development as a vocation, I found BASIC had set up bad habits that it > took years to unwind. I still have a fondness for the language, but I > don't think it was all that educational. It was brute force, overly > verbose at times, hard to follow in programs of anything above trivial > sizes, etc. But, it must have it's sheering section, and so I defer to you. I do not know what a "sheering section" means. A lot of people still sneer at BASIC even now, decades after its slide into obscurity, but I personally think it was a classic design. There's a lot of stuff that people do not notice, let alone appreciate, when today they advocate Python, say. Traditional BASIC needs no concept of "files" or "editors". Type some code, it executes. Prefix it with a number, it is stored for later. Different numbers allow the sequence of the code to be set or changed, and give a simple, obvious way to control the path of execution. Once you remove that, there is a _massive_ extra layer of cognitive load imposed: "this language runs code from a thing called a 'file'. It executes it line by line. You use another program called an 'editor' to create that file. Files are kept in 'folders' and need to be given unique names. Ah, no, if you want to move from one part of a program to another, you need to set a 'label' in in the code, and jump to that... or name your 'routine' which makes it into a 'producedure' and then call the procedure by name..." This is a hell of a lot to teach and to learn. I know; I may write docs now, but before that, I was a software trainer and had to get adults to absorb, use and retain this stuff. It's _hard_. It seems utterly trivial to pro techies but it is not. It's very abstruse and theoretical to non-techies. Kemeny & Kurtz thought about this stuff, and devised simple solutions. Guido van Rossum didn't. He was writing a different kind of tool, and exposing the arcana of the C 'printf()' functions to his users was not a problem for him. It really _is_ if you are 7 years old and trying to learn this stuff. This kind of cognitive disconnect is what killed Novell. "Hey, we'll add features to Netware 4 that will make it much easier for our big enterprise customers..." "But they make it much *harder* for a mom-and-pop business with 1 server!" "Aw, doesn't matter, they'll learn..." [2 years pass] "Hey, where did our market share go? Why is everyone buying NT 4 Server now? What happened? OMG why are we going bankrupt?!" BASIC made learning programming easy. The result was a whole generation of kids in the 1980s learned to program and started tech companies, and many became wealthy or changed whole national economies. Today, you need to learn to use a computer first before you can learn to program, consumer computers aren't programmable at all, and hey, look at that, modern software is crappy unreliable bloatware that needs constant patching and vast upgrades. Meanwhile people who remember when computers were simple collect old ones and form active communities online, discussing historical trivial like the memory maps of 8-bit machines from 40 years ago. What a mystery! Whatever could have happened? What could have caused this? Nobody knows! It's insoluble! > Yes, I'll agree when I think of bare-minimum, my first thought is the > Sinclair. Maybe I should rephrase to be "the minimum to put in the > machine that will offer selling points over competitors". :-( I think this is a difference of national economies at work again. You casually mention buying a $350 computer when you were a kid. Good for you. If computers never got cheaper than $350 then I would never have got a computer when I was a kid, and today I'd be a marine biologist as I had planned. In other words, this was a life-altering difference. The model of machine I got was half the price of yours, brand new, and there was no way my family could have afforded that _new_ at full price. It was, after all, a toy for a child. But second hand, at ?80, it was just barely doable. Probably the most expensive gift I'd ever had in my life until then. These things were _vastly_ expensive luxury products back then, or at least they were for British children. Yet you or your family paid in real terms between 4? to 8? as much and you didn't mind that it had some very serious drawbacks which you discuss in great detail? That's astonishing to me. If I or my parents were spending this very significant sum, perhaps a month's income for the whole family, then I want something as rounded, as balanced, as capable in every aspect as can possibly be done for the price. Yet you say "yeah, well, the BASIC was crappy and the disk drives were kinda crappy but I didn't care." This is really quite profoundly shocking to me. > If you mean putting the Z80 in there? Bil agrees with you. He hated the > entire idea, and the engineering effort he expended to do it. But, when > Marketing has promised it, evidently at Commodore, you made it happen. > Hats off the engineers at CSG/MOS/CBM. Again, I guess we are looking at this in very different ways. For you, these seem to be small, unimportant issues. For me, at the time, given the amount of money involved, they would be deal-breakers. > Since I've sometimes had to do the bidding of the pointy haired boss, I > admire the technical aspects of the decision. But, I agree with you it > was a bad idea, if only because Commodore didn't vertically integrate > the Z80, so it had to be sourced from Zilog, and it was lots more > expensive that the 6502. So, instead of hanging this cart off the back > for the few dozen folks who actually cared to do CP/M on the 128, and > paid for the privilege of the Z80, CBM had to source one for each 128 > and keep the overall costs down in spite of it. Legend goes that CBM > Europe threatened to rip the z80 out of every C128 they sold in Europe, > I think because they had dissed it in competitor systems like the > Sinclair, etc. (You can't actually do so, as the Z80 actually runs first > in the C128, to work around an issue with another almost never used > Commodore cartridge that had to work on Day 1: it's either Magic Voice > or Super Expander, I forget which. Again, Commodore promised *ALL* > Commodore released carts would be compatible [ except the CP/M cart, > which they could ignore, on a technicality], and Bil had to use the Z80 > to boot the machine to accommodate that one cart!) Astonishing. But then corporate decision-making often astonishes me. Then again, baffling corporate/governmental decision making has brought the world to the very brink of collapse, and I am not at all sure that my baby daughter Ada -- named for Baroness Lovelace, of course -- will live to the age that I was when I chose a Spectrum over a C64. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Tue May 26 10:30:45 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 15:30:45 +0000 Subject: HP 9817 Usage Message-ID: Hello! I have an HP 9817 and its accompanying 9133D disk drive unit. The disk drive seems like a rather large can of worms, so I've been ignoring it. I re-capped the 9817's power supply. It powers up and it passes all of its diagnostics according to the LEDs on the motherboard. I can see that it is outputting a picture on the composite video connector, but I don't have any displays that will accept the weird sync frequency that it uses. I also do not have an HIL keyboard to use with the machine. I traced out the RS-232 TX and RX on the 50-pin serial connector on the back, and verified that it matched up with the hand-drawn schematics on the HP Museum website. Using that information, I build a serial cable. Unfortunately the machine does not appear to use this serial port as a "console" at power-up. I tried messing around with the DIPS switches according to the manual but none of the settings I tried resulted in the machine using the serial port at boot. I noticed that one of the DIP switches will enable/disable a "remote keyboard" feature. Enabling it causes the machine to fail the power-on test with a "device not found" error code. I didn't write down the exact error code. Should I look at buying a monitor that can support the composite video sync and get an HIL keyboard (or build an adapter)? Does the machine not support using a terminal over the serial port as a console at boot? Thanks From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 26 10:37:33 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 08:37:33 -0700 Subject: HP 9817 Usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/26/20 8:30 AM, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > Hello! > > I have an HP 9817 and its accompanying 9133D disk drive unit. you may have more luck with HP questions at VintHPcom at groups.io From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue May 26 10:49:29 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:49:29 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <7A9BD6D8-64A4-4AE8-83D1-FF856899AB17@gmail.com> Message-ID: <900DF7BA-E676-4DC6-8CD9-36D70C3B1155@gmail.com> > On 26 May 2020, at 12:57, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 23:17, Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >> Wait, PETs didn?t have graphics and Tic Tac Toe didn?t exist? Where did you LIVE? > > The _name_ was new to me. > > & the Isle of Man. :-) > Suddenly your comments about Trash-80s and MSX machines makes perfect sense too :) -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue May 26 11:25:11 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 17:25:11 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 12:44 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > And whereas it's easy to forget now, I think the roles of colour and > sound in gaining the attention of children is underestimated. > > I look at the specs and capabilities of something like the Acorn Atom > in 1980 -- _way_ ahead of a ZX80 or ZX81, and to me now, looking back, > far more desirable (and far more expensive, of course). But to me at > 12? Black and white, silent? REPEAT...UNTIL loops? *BOOOORING!* Err, the Acorn Atom could do colour at least in some graphics modes. It used the 6847 video chip that turned up in the Tandy Color Computer/Dragon. Maybe the base machine was monochrome video only, but there was a PAL encoder board available (offically from Acorn) that fitted inside. > > > ham radio shack was slang for wherever a amateur radio hobbyist set up. > > Other than that, "shack" referred to an improvised/impromptu dwelling, FWIW, 'Shack' is a commonly used in the UK in the amateur radio sense. When I was at university (late 1980s) the amateur radio club had a litteral wooden shed on a nearby farm containing the transmitters and receivers. It was always called the 'shack' > > such as ones made of tar paper, so it had similar negative connotations to > > everybody but amateur radio. When they wanted to move upscale, they set > > up "Tandy Computer Centers/Stores" to start to get away from the "Radio > > Shack name. It was ABOUT 1983 that they discontinued using the "Radio > > Shack" name. Transition is apparent betwen models of the Model 100 and > > the "Color Computer". > > Aha! > > Bear in mind, as I said, we didn't have most TRS-80 models here. The Yes we did!. The only TRS-80 that I know not to have been officially sold in the UK was the Color Computer 3 (the one with the MMU, up to 512K RAM, 80 column screen etc). I had to have mine sent from a dealer in the States. The Model 1, Model 3, Model 4 family were all sold over here in Tandy shops. So were the 'business' machines with 8" drives -- the Model 2, Model 12 and Model 16. And the laptops, Model 100 and Model 200 at least. I _think_ the Tandy 2000 IBM-incompatible was sold over here too. The Tandy 1000 series and later PC compatibles were certainly sold in Tandy shops (but I wasn't interested in those). > CoCo was the 6809 one, right? The underlying reference design was put > in a different case and sold as the Dragon 32 here. There were a few changes (the most annoying one being that the basic tokens were in a different order so a tokenised program saved on a Dragon would not load into a Color Computer or vice versa). But yes, both based on the Motorola application notes for the 6883 SAM chip. Was OS-9 ever officially sold for the Dragon? It was for the Color Computer range (and was sold in the UK in Tandy shops, along with BASIC-09, Pascal, C compiler, etc) > > I never got an Amstrad, but I was impressed with the 3" disk design, and > > had some 3" drives. > > Hitachi designed I believe. Hitachi certainly made 3" drives (I have some), they may well have been the originators of that disk. I don't think the Amstrad drives were Hitachi though, the ones I saw were nowhere near as well made as the Hitachi drives I have -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue May 26 11:30:57 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 17:30:57 +0100 Subject: HP 9817 Usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:31 PM TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > > Hello! > > I have an HP 9817 and its accompanying 9133D disk drive unit. > > The disk drive seems like a rather large can of worms, so I've been ignoring it. I re-capped the 9817's power supply. It powers up and it passes all of its diagnostics according to the LEDs on the motherboard. I can see that it is outputting a picture on the composite video connector, but I don't have any displays that will accept the weird sync frequency that it uses. I also do not have an HIL keyboard to use with the machine. Which video card do you have? Given you mention 'composite video' I'm assuming an HP98204. But the 98204A and 98204B are quite different. The -A outputs TV rate video (and can drive many common monitors), the -B has a faster horizontal scan rate (so more lines in the raster, higher resolution) and drives a special HP monitor, HP35731 (this is actually a Samsung chassis and it shows, it is nowhere near the build quality I'd expect from HP at that time). > Should I look at buying a monitor that can support the composite video sync and get an HIL keyboard (or build an adapter)? Does the machine not support using a terminal over the serial port as a console at boot? I don't think it'll support a serial console. I've never got an HP9000/200 series machine to do so. From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 26 11:50:31 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 11:50:31 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> On 5/26/2020 9:50 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 20:53, Jim Brain via cctalk > wrote: > >> Too late to fix silicon, the 6522 issue surfaced. > What 6522 issue? TO help save a few bits in everyone's mailbox, I will link to some docs: http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1514 The forum post gives some commentary on the bugs. http://archive.6502.org/datasheets/synertek_sy6522.pdf However, the TLDR version is that there are bugs in the shift register implementation that cause too many clock pulses to be sent (mode 010) and missing IRQ after 8 clock pulses (mode 011/111).? Page 8 of the PDF gives more detail (Section 5.1). > > This is way more depth about a machine I never owned than I personally > ever knew, I have to admit... I am sure all the home computers have these interesting stories, though most of the world only knows about variations on the 5150 design and the Mac. > > Still, that degree of backwards-compatibility helps adoption of a new > model. ZX Spectrum owners could keep their ZX Printer from their ZX81, > for instance, and BASIC programs would still run. (Although I think > you had to re-enter them all -- not sure about tape storage > compatibility.) I agree and can't fault the logic.? We who bought a VIC-20 and then upgraded and were penniless kids were ecstatic. > >> Done, except Japan >> didn't see any need for it, so they deleted it. Argh! > But I thought the Japanese model didn't sell? I may have miscommunicated.? CBM did their design work in PA, but final layout and such was done at the Japan office.? And, they also tended to use the Japanese market as a test for US and Europe intros, to iron out issues.? Thus, the VIC-20 final layout was done at the Japan office, and it was introduced there first (as the VIC-1001). When designing the C64, the PA design team snuck in a new trace from the 6526 shift register (and bridged one of the IEC lines in place at the 6526 CIA over to the shift register CLK line (most likely the unused SRQ line on the IEC connector) and then sent the designs to Japan for final layout. My theory is that the PA design team didn't dare talk about the extra traces with leadership, for fear of retribution.? I am sure managers would have been concerned about possible compatibility issues of adding a trace and demanded it be removed.? Jack may have yelled (he was legendary for that) at the engineer for "adding no value".? Or, the management team might have been actually concerned about the issue, raised it to Jack, and demanded they fix it but not add the trace.? I think the engineer thought this was a way to add this in for the future, but not delay the current project and hit show and intro dates.? But, that's my theory. The Japanese team, not having any knowledge about this "secret" plan to fix slow IEC speeds, simply optimized the extra traces our of the design, and since it was final layout, there was no recourse. To your point, the C116 intro in Japan did indeed bomb. > I must admit, even in 1983 or something, that seemed extravagant to > me. I know that the Apple LaserWriter was a more powerful computer > than the Mac that drove it, but there were sound engineering reasons > for that -- but most 8-bit machines' standard floppy drives didn't > have CPUs, so why did the Commodore ones need them? Well, I do think Peddle had a great idea.? Most drives of the day were tightly coupled to the machine, which was low cost, but tightly coupled the hardware.? He was familiar with the HP Interface Bus (HPIB), which is IEEE-488, and the value it created (lots of peripherals, lots of interconnectedness, etc.).? I think he championed the PET have that as opposed to a direct drive connection.? Though IEEE-488 gave way to IEC, it and related peripheral connects (the Atari SIO bus) actually were a great design choice, as it makes it that much easier today to interface contemporary peripheral options to these old machines.? While some systems have to emulate an actual floppy format (80kB or 160kB or something) when trying to move from spinning disk to SD cards and such, one can hang a huge FAT32 formatted SD card off the CBM serial bus and the computer doesn't hardly even know.? Most apps just merrily go along. But, 2 CPUs? That was overkill, in most folks opinions. > Well, for all that it didn't appeal to me, I think it was a decent > design and it sold well. Can't argue that.? Some of us were so desperate for color computing, and it quickly fell to a reasonable price. > >> I guess your point is that you don't agree with Jack's priorities. The >> VIC was a rush job, costs had to be low. BASIC v2 just fit in an 8kB >> ROM, and KERNAL fit in another 8kB. 8kB ROM was easy to make in house. >> Notice they used 2 ROMs instead of 1 16kB one. It was all about low NRE >> costs, using stuff off the shelf. Putting a third 8kB ROM in there for >> better BASIC was just an unneeded IC, plus someone would need to write >> the A/V code (CBM did not have a A/V capable BASIC at that time). > But CBM didn't write it in the first place, did they? It's MS BASIC. MS wrote it, and CBM modified it as needed. BASIC 4.0 I think was wholly modified from v2 by CBM.? Something changed at some point, because none of the CBM BASIC up to v7 in the C128 had a MS copyright, but v7 (all changes done by CBM internally) did have the copyright.? Not sure if MS threatened, it was some concession given in licensing a BASIC for Amiga (I forget it AMigaBASIC was MS-based...), etc. > > In the Spectrum, there's no split between OS and BASIC -- they're the > same chunk of code, and it all fits in 16 KB leaving 48 KB of memory > map free for RAM. The initial models of Spectrum (16KB & 48KB) had no > bank switching support at all, AFAIK. Now, this is a good question.? I've seen MS BASIC v2 and VIC and 64 KERNAL (same except for some fixups to fit the 64) and they take up all of that 16kB.? Maybe Z80 code is more compact, or maybe Sinclair was just better at stuffing code into ROMs.? Not sure.? But, it is obvious the Speccy packed more into 16kB than Commodore. > Anyway, back to 6502 machines: the BBC Micro split the OS (MOS) and > BASIC (BBC BASIC) into different ROMs, just as the Commie 64 did. > However, Acorn's ROMs were 16 KB each not 8 KB each. That meant that > with both MOS and BBC BASIC paged in, the base model BBC Micro had > only 32 KB of memory map left for RAM, and that really wasn't enough. > Its highest-res graphics mode took ?20 KB of RAM, leaving a paltry > 11KB for programs. > > But I guess all this is unknown and irrelevant in the USA, where Acorn > barely sold at all and Sinclair did poorly. I think the Sinclair options just were not marketed well in US.? I remember considering the ZX81, but really wanted color.? I don't remember seeing the 2068 back in the day.? I also don't remember seeing the Micro, and what was the cost of it in 1984, for example? In '82, the VIC was 332USD, and in 1984, the 64 was $149.? I doubt the other models could hit those prices.? Schools here got the Apple IIs (Apple had some education program), but lots of us went the cheap route. > > Given that the functionality of the Commodore OS and BASIC seemed so > feeble compared to that of the Beeb, I remain surprised to this day > that CBM couldn't squeeze all that into 16KB. I heartily agree with you there. > Also fair. It's all most British schoolkids wanted, yes. > > I collected games like some kids collected stamps: it was fun to have > a good collection, swap and trade, to have the latest or rarities -- > but you don't actually _use_ the stamps in your collection, do you? I > didn't actually _play_ all the games. Most I loaded once, had a look > and then never opened again. We are exactly alike in that.? I have boxes of games I collected from back in the day and I don't think I even loaded some of them up one time.? So much youthful effort squandered on such a useless task :-) > > >> I can appreciate your advocacy of BASIC. I cannot agree with it, and I >> liked BASIC (on many machines) growing up. Once I entered software >> development as a vocation, I found BASIC had set up bad habits that it >> took years to unwind. I still have a fondness for the language, but I >> don't think it was all that educational. It was brute force, overly >> verbose at times, hard to follow in programs of anything above trivial >> sizes, etc. But, it must have it's sheering section, and so I defer to you. > I do not know what a "sheering section" means. Typo: "cheering".? :-) > > > > BASIC made learning programming easy. The result was a whole > generation of kids in the 1980s learned to program and started tech > companies, and many became wealthy or changed whole national > economies. I will absolutely agree with this.? BASIC was the gateway drug. Perhaps I quibble because easy and good may not be equivalent. Maybe there is a mutual exclusivity at play.? BASIC was easy to learn (kudos to the designers) and powerful, no argument there. But, I think it scaled badly and created bad habits (global vars, spaghetti code, etc.) and it put me a bit behind when I needed to turn my enjoyment of programming into a vocation.? But, if you just wanted to whip up a solution to your specific problem, and you were not trying to be a professional programmer, BASIC was awesome (I still use it when I test hardware designs, since it's so much easier than sitting down to write a machine language test app.).? But, when the adult drops by the introduction to programming class, you just don't know what category that person is in.? Still, I will agree that it made programming fun, and none of the bad habits it fostered were all that difficult to unlearn. > > Yet you or your family paid in real terms between 4? to 8? as much and > you didn't mind that it had some very serious drawbacks which you > discuss in great detail? > > That's astonishing to me. Well, to be fair to my 10 year old self, living in a rural community, I probably didn't do very good research.? I *wanted* an Atari 2600 (yes, it's ironic, since I don't play games and really never did), but everyone had one, and peer pressure is strong.? My father, who was a farmer and mechanic, put his foot down and vetoed the idea, stating that for that kind of money, the device should do more than play games (I think the 2600 was $199 or something, maybe was a bit more, memory is fuzzy).? But we lived in the country, so we did our shopping via the Sears/JC Penny/Montgomery Ward paper catalogs, and all of the units offered were just as unapproachable as your comments state about the options in your youth, save the VIC-20.? Thus, in comparison, it was awesome, even though it had issues.? I don't remember seeing the Sinclair or the BBC in those catalogs, and that was probably the extent of my research. > > If I or my parents were spending this very significant sum, perhaps a > month's income for the whole family, then I want something as rounded, > as balanced, as capable in every aspect as can possibly be done for > the price. My family didn't really care at the time.? Maybe in Europe folks took computers more seriously earlier, but my family saw it as just another toy the boy wanted.? And, it was all my savings I had accumulated.? Of course, I now know we were (and are) privileged concerning income in the US (and I think my family would be considered lower middle class at the time), but I didn't know that then.? Unlike with food, there was no "Jim, there are less fortunate children in other countries who cannot afford this kind of computer, so you better pay a lot of attention to selecting a valuable option" discussions.? I had the cash, I bought the machine, I enjoyed it. > > Yet you say "yeah, well, the BASIC was crappy and the disk drives were > kinda crappy but I didn't care." > > This is really quite profoundly shocking to me. Well, I didn't know they were at first.? Initially, I played games on the VIC, and then tired of it and put it away.? A year later, the school had some, so I dug it out and really started coding on it. We were not in a large metropolis, and computers were so new around here, no one was comparing.? Later, when things become more well known, we were all trading games, BASIC was never mentioned, and C64 games used the disk drive CPU to enable fast disk access, so the slow drive issue just magically disappeared. I read magazine articles about better BASIC options and A/V commands in other units, and I think I did lament that, but I'd made my investment, and the eco-system around here was Atari and Commodore. >> If you mean putting the Z80 in there? Bil agrees with you. He hated the >> entire idea, and the engineering effort he expended to do it. But, when >> Marketing has promised it, evidently at Commodore, you made it happen. >> Hats off the engineers at CSG/MOS/CBM. > Again, I guess we are looking at this in very different ways. > > For you, these seem to be small, unimportant issues. For me, at the > time, given the amount of money involved, they would be deal-breakers. I'd ask for more clarity here.? I do think compatibility with 2 obscure carts was overblown, and maybe you think that was super important. But maybe you mean the choice of putting the Z80 in there.? I can't believe CBM let him do it, since that piece was so expensive, compared to MOS parts.? But, it happened.? Still, I' m not sure your context here. Jim From abs at absd.org Tue May 26 12:04:38 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:04:38 +0100 Subject: Updating the VAX GCC backend from cc0 to MODE_CC Message-ID: The gcc VAX backend is in danger of being dropped if it doesn't get converted from the older cc0 to the newer MODE_CC implementation. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz has started a bountysource entry https://www.bountysource.com/issues/91495157-vax-convert-the-backend-to-mode_cc-so-it-can-be-kept-in-future-releases and asked for people to post it anywhere it might be found interesting, in case anyone would like to add to the bounty, or collect it :) (I find it quite amusing to it mixed in between entries like "Optimize NumPy SIMD algorithms for Power VSX") You could easily argue that modern gcc is too big to be practical to run on a VAX anyway, but making practical a requirement for classiccmp.org would rule out _so_ much fun stuff :) Thanks David From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 26 12:21:54 2020 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:21:54 -0500 Subject: IBM 3178 keyboards available in MN Message-ID: <20200526172154.GR7728@n0jcf.net> A friend has unearthed approximately (5) of these IBM keyboards in his dad's shed in MN. These are not PC keyboards but instead likely 3178 terminal keyboards. They probably came out of 3M a very long time ago. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B8kw9xdaeikwzKzyL0ts3HZZg96K7Yov/view?usp=sharing I have persuaded my friend not to trash them until I see if there is interest in them here. They are dirty and their working status is completely unknown. Contact Gary: w0ghz(-at-)comcast.net if you are interested in them. Reference: IBM 6052101 https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_%22Blue_Switch%22_3178-C3_Terminal https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/IBM_3178 Chris -- Chris Elmquist From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 26 12:25:23 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:25:23 +0100 Subject: IBM 3178 keyboards available in MN In-Reply-To: <20200526172154.GR7728@n0jcf.net> References: <20200526172154.GR7728@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <0bfb01d63382$a3ee3230$ebca9690$@gmail.com> I think some on the VCFED forums were looking for one of these. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist > via cctalk > Sent: 26 May 2020 18:22 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM 3178 keyboards available in MN > > A friend has unearthed approximately (5) of these IBM keyboards in his dad's > shed in MN. These are not PC keyboards but instead likely 3178 terminal > keyboards. They probably came out of 3M a very long time ago. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B8kw9xdaeikwzKzyL0ts3HZZg96K7Yov/vie > w?usp=sharing > > I have persuaded my friend not to trash them until I see if there is interest in > them here. > > They are dirty and their working status is completely unknown. > > Contact Gary: > > w0ghz(-at-)comcast.net > > if you are interested in them. > > Reference: > > IBM 6052101 > https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_%22Blue_Switch%22_3178-C3_Terminal > > https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/IBM_3178 > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 12:49:49 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 19:49:49 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <900DF7BA-E676-4DC6-8CD9-36D70C3B1155@gmail.com> References: <7A9BD6D8-64A4-4AE8-83D1-FF856899AB17@gmail.com> <900DF7BA-E676-4DC6-8CD9-36D70C3B1155@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 17:49, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > On 26 May 2020, at 12:57, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > > & the Isle of Man. :-) > > Suddenly your comments about Trash-80s and MSX machines makes perfect sense too :) Fair enough. Small island country, with about 2 or 3 computer shops, and as a result a restricted range of stuff on sale. We probably only got best-sellers, or high-margin kit -- one shop had a Torch Z80 twin-disk addon for a BBC Micro in its window. And a small sample set at school, too. There was a Tandy, and I think they had several models of TRS-80 over the years. I don't think I recall ever hearing of anyone _buying_ one, though. ;-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 12:54:52 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 19:54:52 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 18:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > Err, the Acorn Atom could do colour at least in some graphics modes. > It used the 6847 video chip that turned up in the Tandy Color > Computer/Dragon. Maybe the base machine was monochrome video only, but > there was a PAL encoder board available (offically from Acorn) that > fitted inside. OK, I defer. I never even heard about the machine at the time -- the first Acorn products I ever saw, or heard of, were the Beebs. > > FWIW, 'Shack' is a commonly used in the UK in the amateur radio sense. > When I was at university (late 1980s) the amateur radio club had a > litteral wooden shed on a nearby farm containing the transmitters and > receivers. It was always called the 'shack' Aha. I never was into amateur radio. To this day I have 1 friend who just assumes that because I have geeky interests, this must be one of them. It isn't. I was in the Signals section of the CCF at school, so I know how to use one, too. I just didn't find it very interesting, that's all. > Yes we did!. The only TRS-80 that I know not to have been officially > sold in the UK was the Color Computer 3 [...] As I said -- I saw them in the shops. I know they were sold. I just never even heard of a single person who *bought* one. :-) > Was OS-9 ever officially sold for the Dragon? It was for the Color > Computer range (and was sold in the UK in Tandy shops, along with > BASIC-09, Pascal, C compiler, etc) I think I saw in the magazines, so I will venture "yes"... > Hitachi certainly made 3" drives (I have some), they may well have > been the originators of that disk. I don't think the Amstrad drives > were Hitachi though, the ones I saw were nowhere near as well made as > the Hitachi drives I have IIRC -- very possibly erroneously -- Amstrad bought in the early units, then realised that there was a good margin on the media and took over making its own, around the time that the OEM discontinued them because 3.5" had won in the market. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue May 26 13:02:08 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 19:02:08 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 6:55 PM Liam Proven wrote: > > On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 18:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes we did!. The only TRS-80 that I know not to have been officially > > sold in the UK was the Color Computer 3 > [...] > > As I said -- I saw them in the shops. I know they were sold. I just > never even heard of a single person who *bought* one. :-) My late father and I? Over the years we bought a Model 1 (and then later the expansion interface and disk drive), several Color Computer 2's (and a couple of disk drive units) and a Model 100. The Model 3 and Model 4 I bought second hand, and as I mentioned I had the CoCo 3 shipped from the States. > > Hitachi certainly made 3" drives (I have some), they may well have > > been the originators of that disk. I don't think the Amstrad drives > > were Hitachi though, the ones I saw were nowhere near as well made as > > the Hitachi drives I have > > IIRC -- very possibly erroneously -- Amstrad bought in the early > units, then realised that there was a good margin on the media and > took over making its own, around the time that the OEM discontinued > them because 3.5" had won in the market. You might well be right. I bought some of the Hitachi drives when they were being sold of as they were cheap storage for my Color Computer, etc). But the only Amstra drive I came across was much later in a friend's CPC6128. That would have been late enough for Amstad to have been making their own I guess. -tony From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Tue May 26 13:12:00 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:12:00 +0000 Subject: HP 9817 Usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <_YfeKe8MyiSaeId_QSnNFNIzXVdV8YVPmQ_-w8ciEHYGvlwDLpvhBEcHU9Tud93Vq-dDoKM6N-BUFmy9eT4slXXD_v7Zj90nZNyQSOuMC88=@protonmail.com> It's a 98204B card. I've been looking at the original HP displays but I haven't heard anything good about them. I've seen people mention newer multisync LCD monitors that will work with it. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 12:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:31 PM TangentDelta via cctalk > cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > Hello! > > I have an HP 9817 and its accompanying 9133D disk drive unit. > > The disk drive seems like a rather large can of worms, so I've been ignoring it. I re-capped the 9817's power supply. It powers up and it passes all of its diagnostics according to the LEDs on the motherboard. I can see that it is outputting a picture on the composite video connector, but I don't have any displays that will accept the weird sync frequency that it uses. I also do not have an HIL keyboard to use with the machine. > > Which video card do you have? Given you mention 'composite video' I'm > assuming an HP98204. But the 98204A and 98204B are quite different. > The -A outputs TV rate video (and can drive many common monitors), the > -B has a faster horizontal scan rate (so more lines in the raster, > higher resolution) and drives a special HP monitor, HP35731 (this is > actually a Samsung chassis and it shows, it is nowhere near the build > quality I'd expect from HP at that time). > > > Should I look at buying a monitor that can support the composite video sync and get an HIL keyboard (or build an adapter)? Does the machine not support using a terminal over the serial port as a console at boot? > > I don't think it'll support a serial console. I've never got an > HP9000/200 series machine to do so. From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 13:54:46 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 20:54:46 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 18:50, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > TO help save a few bits in everyone's mailbox, I will link to some docs: > > http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1514 Whoah. OK, TMI for this dilettante. I think the only CBM kit that went through my home was a C16 I fixed for a friend. I managed to find a dead one very cheaply and swapped in a good chip for a visibly fried one. > I am sure all the home computers have these interesting stories, though > most of the world only knows about variations on the 5150 design and the > Mac. True. :-( > I may have miscommunicated. CBM did their design work in PA, but final > layout and such was done at the Japan office. [...] Aha! All becomes clear. > Well, I do think Peddle had a great idea. Most drives of the day were > tightly coupled to the machine, which was low cost, but tightly coupled > the hardware. He was familiar with the HP Interface Bus (HPIB), which > is IEEE-488, and the value it created (lots of peripherals, lots of > interconnectedness, etc.). I think he championed the PET have that as > opposed to a direct drive connection. Though IEEE-488 gave way to IEC, > it and related peripheral connects (the Atari SIO bus) actually were a > great design choice, as it makes it that much easier today to interface > contemporary peripheral options to these old machines. While some > systems have to emulate an actual floppy format (80kB or 160kB or > something) when trying to move from spinning disk to SD cards and such, > one can hang a huge FAT32 formatted SD card off the CBM serial bus and > the computer doesn't hardly even know. Most apps just merrily go along. OK, ISWYM now. It did seem like a good thing for the PET, yes. Similarly, the BBC Micro sold into a lot of universities and other research institutions, not for its own merits as a computer but because it had such a range of interfaces that you could relatively easily interface them to lab equipment and use them to control/monitor/log data. I believe PETs got some similar roles talking to HPIB lab equipment. There is a very impressive interface for the BBC Micro now: [Googles] Oh. OK then. *Was*... http://www.retroclinic.com/acorn/datacentre/datacentre.htm It gives -- gave -- a BBC Micro a meg of RAM, a USB port, an SD card controller and more, all in one inexpensive interface. Something like that is just not really possible on a Spectrum or most of the other cheaper machines. > Can't argue that. Some of us were so desperate for color computing, and > it quickly fell to a reasonable price. [Nod] Much the same motivation for me. > MS wrote it, and CBM modified it as needed. BASIC 4.0 I think was wholly > modified from v2 by CBM. Something changed at some point, because none > of the CBM BASIC up to v7 in the C128 had a MS copyright, but v7 (all > changes done by CBM internally) did have the copyright. Not sure if MS > threatened, it was some concession given in licensing a BASIC for Amiga > (I forget it AMigaBASIC was MS-based...), etc. There's probably a story to be told in there... > Now, this is a good question. I've seen MS BASIC v2 and VIC and 64 > KERNAL (same except for some fixups to fit the 64) and they take up all > of that 16kB. Maybe Z80 code is more compact, or maybe Sinclair was > just better at stuffing code into ROMs. Not sure. But, it is obvious > the Speccy packed more into 16kB than Commodore. Good question. Sadly IME the people into one so much to delve into ROM disassembly etc. tend not to be so into the other. > I think the Sinclair options just were not marketed well in US. I > remember considering the ZX81, but really wanted color. I don't > remember seeing the 2068 back in the day. I also don't remember seeing > the Micro, and what was the cost of it in 1984, for example? At launch in 1981, ?335 for the higher-spec Model B. In the ballpark of $700 I think, and it did not drop much over its run, as it never achieved the volumes of the C64, although it sold a very respectable 1? million or so. > In '82, the > VIC was 332USD, and in 1984, the 64 was $149. I doubt the other models > could hit those prices. Schools here got the Apple IIs (Apple had some > education program), but lots of us went the cheap route. Nothing else came close. Commodore still managed to make a profit with amazing price cuts, it seemed to me. > We are exactly alike in that. I have boxes of games I collected from > back in the day and I don't think I even loaded some of them up one > time. So much youthful effort squandered on such a useless task :-) :-) Indeed! > > I do not know what a "sheering section" means. > Typo: "cheering". :-) Aha! I still didn't know, but that, I could Google. Gotcha. I don't know. There is a huge amount of tradition and culture in computing now, and as a result, few people seem to have informed, relatively unbiased opinions. There hasn't been much real diversity in decades. 25 or 30y ago, people discussed the merits of Smalltalk or Prolog or Forth; now most people have never seen or heard of them, and it's just which curly-bracket language you favour, or does your preferred language run in a VM or is it compiled to a native binary. BASIC has a bad rep, and it's very hard to get anyone to look past that. A rare example: https://prog21.dadgum.com/198.html Or this already 7YO blog post: http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ > I will absolutely agree with this. BASIC was the gateway drug. Perhaps > I quibble because easy and good may not be equivalent. Maybe there is a > mutual exclusivity at play. BASIC was easy to learn (kudos to the > designers) and powerful, no argument there. But, I think it scaled badly > and created bad habits (global vars, spaghetti code, etc.) and it put me > a bit behind when I needed to turn my enjoyment of programming into a > vocation. But, if you just wanted to whip up a solution to your > specific problem, and you were not trying to be a professional > programmer, BASIC was awesome (I still use it when I test hardware > designs, since it's so much easier than sitting down to write a machine > language test app.). But, when the adult drops by the introduction to > programming class, you just don't know what category that person is in. > Still, I will agree that it made programming fun, and none of the bad > habits it fostered were all that difficult to unlearn. Interesting that you echo word-for-word the phrase used by a commenter on my blog. (I try to remember to turn all my longer ClassicCmp answers into blog posts.) "A gateway drug". Yes, indeed. The thing that saddens me, I guess, is that it was a first step on the ladder for _so many_ but then most hopped to different ladders. Whereas there _were_ objectively good BASICs out there -- BBC BASIC, MS QuickBASIC (especially 4), and so on. But they got overlooked in the rush to C and things built on or in C. I think it's often believed that this is because early-home-micro-era BASICs were bad, and for those who are broad-minded enough to allow that good BASICs did exist, seem to think that they only came later -- like in the 1990s in the case of Microsoft's advancements. This is not true: there _were_ good BASICs in the early 1980s. BBC BASIC remains the hallmark -- the ARM chip was designed and built by Acorn, and the ARM instruction set was prototyped in BBC BASIC. The language came not only on the Acorn BBC machines; it was the native programming language of the later Acorn ARM machines too. It also came in the ROMs of the Cambridge Computers Z88, the Amstrad NC100, NC 150 and NC200. It ran on Windows 3 and CP/M and lots of other OSes. The Elan Enterprise had a pretty good BASIC in 1985 and the SAM Coup? in 1989. But I guess most American readers have never heard of any of these machines. :-( > Well, to be fair to my 10 year old self, living in a rural community, I > probably didn't do very good research. I *wanted* an Atari 2600 (yes, > it's ironic, since I don't play games and really never did), but > everyone had one, and peer pressure is strong. My father, who was a > farmer and mechanic, put his foot down and vetoed the idea, stating that > for that kind of money, the device should do more than play games (I > think the 2600 was $199 or something, maybe was a bit more, memory is > fuzzy). But we lived in the country, so we did our shopping via the > Sears/JC Penny/Montgomery Ward paper catalogs, and all of the units > offered were just as unapproachable as your comments state about the > options in your youth, save the VIC-20. Thus, in comparison, it was > awesome, even though it had issues. I don't remember seeing the > Sinclair or the BBC in those catalogs, and that was probably the extent > of my research. Fair! > My family didn't really care at the time. Maybe in Europe folks took > computers more seriously earlier, but my family saw it as just another > toy the boy wanted. And, it was all my savings I had accumulated. Of > course, I now know we were (and are) privileged concerning income in the > US (and I think my family would be considered lower middle class at the > time), but I didn't know that then. Unlike with food, there was no > "Jim, there are less fortunate children in other countries who cannot > afford this kind of computer, so you better pay a lot of attention to > selecting a valuable option" discussions. I had the cash, I bought the > machine, I enjoyed it. Perfectly reasonable. > Well, I didn't know they were at first. Initially, I played games on > the VIC, and then tired of it and put it away. A year later, the school > had some, so I dug it out and really started coding on it. We were not > in a large metropolis, and computers were so new around here, no one was > comparing. Later, when things become more well known, we were all > trading games, BASIC was never mentioned, and C64 games used the disk > drive CPU to enable fast disk access, so the slow drive issue just > magically disappeared. I read magazine articles about better BASIC > options and A/V commands in other units, and I think I did lament that, > but I'd made my investment, and the eco-system around here was Atari and > Commodore. Makes sense. Outside of CP/M were *any* mainstream American home computers Z80 based before the C128? > I'd ask for more clarity here. I do think compatibility with 2 obscure > carts was overblown, and maybe you think that was super important. But > maybe you mean the choice of putting the Z80 in there. I can't believe > CBM let him do it, since that piece was so expensive, compared to MOS > parts. But, it happened. Still, I' m not sure your context here. I am just surprised that this (to me) rather inelegant design survived and got to market, given what you've said about the same company's ruthless drive for cost-cutting removed one PCB trace even though it killed floppy-disk performance, or wouldn't use an extra ROM chip because it was too expensive. It seems inconsistent. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 26 13:56:24 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 20:56:24 +0200 Subject: IBM 3178 keyboards available in MN In-Reply-To: <20200526172154.GR7728@n0jcf.net> References: <20200526172154.GR7728@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 2020 at 19:22, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > > A friend has unearthed approximately (5) of these IBM keyboards in his > dad's shed in MN. These are not PC keyboards but instead likely 3178 > terminal keyboards. They probably came out of 3M a very long time ago. > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B8kw9xdaeikwzKzyL0ts3HZZg96K7Yov/view?usp=sharing > > I have persuaded my friend not to trash them until I see if there is > interest in them here. > > They are dirty and their working status is completely unknown. > > Contact Gary: > > w0ghz(-at-)comcast.net > > if you are interested in them. I'd be tempted by 1 but I'm on another continent. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 26 14:34:51 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> I do not know what a "sheering section" means. >> Typo: "cheering". :-) > Aha! I still didn't know, but that, I could Google. Gotcha. Well, there were some products whose role was to SHEAR THE SHEEP. The Apple3 belonged in a shearing section. Maybe even the Lisa, although that wasn't its intended role. > "A gateway drug". > Yes, indeed. > The thing that saddens me, I guess, is that it was a first step on the > ladder for _so many_ but then most hopped to different ladders. > Whereas there _were_ objectively good BASICs out there -- BBC BASIC, > MS QuickBASIC (especially 4), and so on. But they got overlooked in > the rush to C and things built on or in C. When I taught C, we gave the course a prerequisite of "any other programming language", so that the beginning of the course wouldn't get bogged down in "what is a program?", the concepts of stored programs, compiling, etc. In the first class session, I told the students, that if they had never written a program in any other language, that before the second session (in a week), they should teach themselves a little BASIC. That they might PREFER it, or they might want to forget it as fast as they could, but that it would serve as a "gateway drug". (That got a chuckle, even then.) And that then they could come back to class to get hooked on C. And they could catch up with me in the lab for help getting started on BASIC. OR take a class in BASIC (I taught 2 of the 3 sections) Some of my students continued to use BASIC even after a semester of C. > But I guess most American readers have never heard of any of these machines. :-( Americans were oblivious to anything that wasn't in USA. > Outside of CP/M were *any* mainstream American home computers Z80 > based before the C128? Yes. TRS80. It had a memory map that was incompatible with CP/M. BASIC in ROM at the bottom, and RAM at the top. FMG marketed a "relocated" CP/M for it, but that never caught on. numerous incompatabilities, and few commercial programs were happy with the TPA having been moved. Howard Fulmer ("Parasitic Engineering") sold [expensive] daughter boards for the Model 1 to remap the memory, and convert the FDC for 8" SSSD. Also Omikron. Both were walking distance from me in Berkeley, but they were much too expensive to catch on. (I eventually found used ones) Similar products became available after the model 3 came out, and Radio Shack included CP/M capability in the Model 4 (and 80 column screen) For those parts of the world that didn't have TRS80: Note: Radio Shack TRS80 model 1, 3, 4 were a straightforward transition. 4P was a luggable version of the 4. Model 2 (and 12, later) was a TOTALLY unrelated product consisting of a "business" computer with 8" drives, with CP/M available. Model 16 had coprocessor board with 68000. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 26 14:35:44 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:35:44 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:54 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/2020 1:38 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > I remember sittig in the DEC Ealing (London) Office in 1975 watching a > > programmer work on TOPS 10 > > > > That was DEC's mainframe operating system. > > > > A foot high of printout all in assembler!!! > But remember mainframes after 1960 (compared to the 50's) > where a joy to use with assembly. > Only afer 1975 came out did you have the extra memory > (4K drams) and languages like C with structures did O/S's > change.Ben. > "did O/S's change" in what way? The IBM PL/I F compiler was available in 1966 and PL/I has structures. It was usable on all "real" System/360 machines configured with 64KB or more of memory, so even a 360/30 could be used, but not a 360/20, which isn't actually a 360. There was a PL/I D compiler that would run under DOS/360 with only 16KB of memory, but it was a very restricted subset of PL/I; I dodn't know whether it had structures. ALGOL W also appeared in 1966 and had structures, known as records. Of course, COBOL is even older and also had structures. Most sensible people did not wait until 1975 to start using high-level languages, unless they had either tiny machines or real-time requirements that couldn't be met with a high-level language. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 26 14:45:19 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:45:19 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:56 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 22 May 2020, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > > Thanks for posting the timeline of various Basic interpreters. I wasn't > > aware that Gates/Allen also wrote Basic for C64. > > Microsoft did a BASIC for the Commodore PET. I wasn't aware that they did > the C64. > Microsoft wrote a 6502 BASIC that was used on many vendor's machines, including Commodore, Ohio Scientific, and Apple, but I'm not sure whether Microsoft did the work that was needed to adapt it to the PET; that could have been done by either Microsoft or Commodore. AFAICT, all later Commodore 6502 (etc.) based machines, including the Commodore 64, reused the BASIC from the PET with additional hacks by Commodore as needed to adapt to hardware changes, and I don't think Microsoft was involved in any of that. In 1983 I studied a disassembly of C64 BASIC, which was pretty much identical to VIC20 BASIC, and not much different than later versions of PET BASIC. I compared it to an actual listing of the early Microsoft 6502 BASIC source code, which can today be readily found on the internet, but in 1983 was quite difficult to come by, and at the time I couldn't publicly admit to having such a thing, and I still won't publicly describe how I obtained it. The changes that were added to C64 BASIC as compared to "standard' MS 6502 BASIC, e.g. having some routines vector through RAM, were clearly done by someone who didn't have a good grasp of how Microsoft BASIC worked. For example, some of those vectors were intended to allow adding statements and functions, and they could in fact be used for that, but they didn't vector the _optimal_ subroutines for that. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 26 14:46:56 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIVATE: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> I do not know what a "sheering section" means. >> Typo: "cheering". :-) > > Aha! I still didn't know, but that, I could Google. Gotcha. In USA urban slang, "sheep" is sometimes used to refer to gullible masses (particularly in a political context) "Shearing the sheep" means profiting from the gullible masses. Almost certainly NOT the original intent, but I thought that it was funny. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 26 14:51:58 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 14:51:58 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <79416050-1847-cec5-050f-e77f10b38bd7@jbrain.com> On 5/26/2020 1:54 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Interesting that you echo word-for-word the phrase used by a commenter > on my blog. (I try to remember to turn all my longer ClassicCmp > answers into blog posts.) > > "A gateway drug". > > Yes, indeed. :-) > > But I guess most American readers have never heard of any of these machines. :-( Well, *I've* heard of them, but I enjoy knowing about such things.? Most in the US do not.? But, to be fair, most in the US don't even remember all of the US-based systems.? Altair gets a nod as it shows up in articles concerning computer firsts, but none of the proto or early S-100 based systems are remembered (Cromemco, Northstar, etc.) nor the other Z80 machines like the Kaypro and Osborne.? FOlks know about IBM, but most don't know they still make mainframes and midrange (OS400 or whatever it is called now) machines, and Burroughs, Wang, Amdahl, Hitachi are missed. , Super computer is forever linked with Cray, but Control Data, Thinking Machines, Silicon Graphics, and even Sun are no more remembered.? On the micro front, Atari still carries some name recognition, mainly because of the coin ops and consoles, but everyone has forgotten about Commodore or that HP and TI made computers and that Tandy Radio Shack made a computer themselves and didn't just resell PC clones. THat doesn't even include the semi-pro machines or hobbyist options. So, while we didn't know about all the non US machines, we didn't even know about all the US ones, and folks have forgotten about the ones we did know about. People remember IBM because of the PC, and Apple because of the Mac (and that they did a "proto" mac machine back in the late 1970s (Hey, not saying it is true, it's just how people choose to position the Apple II). It is a shame we didn't see the BBC machines here, and the Timex/Sinclair joint venture to bring out the TS1000 made a mockery of the entire line, apologize for that.? I agree the unit was plucky and I have one here.? Evidently, there exists a lower bound of functionality of computing capability in the US, and the little wedge just didn't make it.? By extension, all future machines were branded in the US, as I recall.? Japanese MSX machines, some of the neat options from Australia, lots of cool variety not seen in the US. > Outside of CP/M were *any* mainstream American home computers Z80 > based before the C128? I can't really think of any.? Some might say the Coleco ADAM, but it was ill-fated. > > I am just surprised that this (to me) rather inelegant design survived > and got to market, given what you've said about the same company's > ruthless drive for cost-cutting removed one PCB trace even though it > killed floppy-disk performance, or wouldn't use an extra ROM chip > because it was too expensive. > > It seems inconsistent. I have to believe (again), it was some Marketing demand.? There's a list of reasons it was a bad idea from the start: * 40 column and no soft 80 column option on the 64, where almost all CP/M software expected 80x24 * No way to read CP/M disks in the market (all were FM or MFM, Commodore had no FM/MFM drive option) * Power hungry cart overloaded minimal PSU It seems inconsistent with the general CBM trend.? Though, to be fair, there were a number of marginally useful carts for the 64 of this type.? The Sound Expander, Magic Voice, the CP/M cart, etc. Most of them are footnotes at best.? Maybe there was an edict to fill the pipeline with peripherals, to make a point to competitors, and the value was in aggregate, not in the usefulness of each item. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 26 14:55:12 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 14:55:12 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 5/26/2020 2:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Yes.? TRS80. Hmm, I always thought of the Model 1,3,4 (and the II/12/16/6000) as business machines, like the Kaypro and such, not home computers, but I guess I consider the PET a non home computer as well. Jim From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 26 14:55:53 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:55:53 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <79416050-1847-cec5-050f-e77f10b38bd7@jbrain.com> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> <79416050-1847-cec5-050f-e77f10b38bd7@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 1:52 PM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > FOlks know about IBM, > but most don't know they still make mainframes and midrange (OS400 or > whatever it is called now) machines, and Burroughs, Wang, Amdahl, > Hitachi are missed. , Super computer is forever linked with Cray, but > Control Data, Thinking Machines, Silicon Graphics, and even Sun are no > more remembered. > Oh, IBM, DEC, and Honeywell; HP, DG and Wang Amdahl, NEC, and NCR, they don't know anything They make big bucks for systems, so they never want it known That you can build a mainframe from the things you find at home - Bill Sutton, "Do It Yourself" https://lyrics.fandom.com/wiki/Bill_Sutton:Do_It_Yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R4sBnbp33U From sieler at allegro.com Tue May 26 15:06:52 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:06:52 -0700 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fred writes: ..."MS-DOS 3.3 did not even come with a disk cache." and discusses problems with SMARTDRV (in MS DOS 4.01 and later). I'm not sure if it was technically a form of caching, but the AmigaDOS delayed floppy write (well before MS-DOS cache) caused enormous problems for Amiga users. (It may well have contributed significantly to the lack of market success.) Basic problem: you save something to a floppy, and pull it out. You now have a corrupted floppy. You needed to wait a few seconds for the OS to decide "well, looks like I better flush the last few dirty sectors out to that floppy". (I contend it was a form of write caching, designed to speed writing to floppies where writing tended to occur in nearby places.) Stan From chris at groessler.org Tue May 26 15:31:11 2020 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 22:31:11 +0200 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2155ed25-3e22-82ce-e39e-b5305727463a@groessler.org> On 2020-05-26 22:06, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > Fred writes: > ..."MS-DOS 3.3 did not even come with a > disk cache." > and discusses problems with SMARTDRV (in MS DOS 4.01 and later). > > I'm not sure if it was technically a form of caching, but the AmigaDOS > delayed floppy write (well before MS-DOS cache) caused enormous problems > for Amiga users. (It may well have contributed significantly to the lack > of market success.) > Basic problem: you save something to a floppy, and pull it out. You now > have a corrupted floppy. You needed to wait a few seconds for the OS to > decide "well, looks like I better flush the last few dirty sectors out to > that floppy". > > (I contend it was a form of write caching, designed to speed writing to > floppies where writing tended to occur in nearby places.) They probably would just have to implement a "sync" command, and tell people to use use it before ejecting a disk... regards, chris From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 26 15:45:42 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:45:42 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <79416050-1847-cec5-050f-e77f10b38bd7@jbrain.com> References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> <79416050-1847-cec5-050f-e77f10b38bd7@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > FOlks know about IBM, > but most don't know they still make mainframes and midrange (OS400 or > whatever it is called now) machines, and Burroughs, Funny thing is that even many IBMers I come across do not realize that Unisys is still in the mainframe business, and still actively develops hardware and software for both the A (Univac) and B (Burroughs) lines. They are still very active - far from dead. Maybe the industry could learn a thing or too about security from them. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 26 17:59:47 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 15:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 May 2020, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > Fred writes: > ..."MS-DOS 3.3 did not even come with a > disk cache." I definitely never said THAT. > and discusses problems with SMARTDRV (in MS DOS 4.01 and later). Yes, THAT I said, but in terms of Win3.10 installing SMARTDRV, rather than DOS 4.01 > > I'm not sure if it was technically a form of caching, but the AmigaDOS > delayed floppy write (well before MS-DOS cache) caused enormous problems > for Amiga users. (It may well have contributed significantly to the lack > of market success.) > Basic problem: you save something to a floppy, and pull it out. You now > have a corrupted floppy. You needed to wait a few seconds for the OS to > decide "well, looks like I better flush the last few dirty sectors out to > that floppy". > > (I contend it was a form of write caching, designed to speed writing to > floppies where writing tended to occur in nearby places.) Yes, I would agree with calling it that, although different reasons why it was done. From sieler at allegro.com Tue May 26 18:06:52 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:06:52 -0700 Subject: History is hard Message-ID: I accidentally attributed text from Liam as being from Fred C, ""MS-DOS 3.3 did not even come with a disk cache." Sorry Fred! Stan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 26 18:30:28 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > > > Outside of CP/M were *any* mainstream American home computers Z80 > > > based before the C128? >> Yes.?? TRS80. Should we include Murray's Adam? (what percentage of Adam owners bought the add-on disk drives?) Even the 5150 was a home computer with cassette, and no drives. How many people here ever did word processing or Visicalc on it with cassettes? (OTHER than as a "proof of concept" to justify what you had spent?) On Tue, 26 May 2020, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Hmm, I always thought of the Model 1,3,4 (and the II/12/16/6000) as business > machines, like the Kaypro and such, not home computers, but I guess I > consider the PET a non home computer as well. I guess that I just have the wrong definition of "home computer". It is subjective, and I will concede that MY definition may not be valid. I see model 2/12/16 as business computers, and marketed as such. I don't see the unexpanded cassette TRS80 model 1 as being ANYTHING other than a home computer. Likewise, the 6809 Color Computer, which could have been MODIFIED into something MUCH more. The fully expanded model 1 was imminently suitable as a "home office" computer. Along with the 6502 Apple and MAYBE the Kaypro, which was super as a home office machine, and was occasionally used as a business machine. Although, I was laughed at for using an expanded model 1 for some accounting and 6 person payroll in my auto repair shop. The model 3 "repackaging" was an important step TOWARDS business suitability, or at least ACCEPTANCE by the business community, and the model 4, with 80 column screen, and capable of CP/M, was quite suitable as a data entry/drone/digital sweatshop work station. How important, other than to US, was the change to beige? A RS manager once explained to me that the model 1 was "NOT battleship gray; it's Mercedes Silver" Osborne was marketed towards executives, and clearly wanted to be perceived as business. "The guy on the left doesn't stand a chance". Hey! he had a spare shirt, a sandwich, a newspaper, and dead-tree copies of the needed reports. The other guy arrived uninformed, hungry or with lunch stains on his shirt, and without some of the reports. Oh, wait. Our left? or their left? From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 26 18:36:20 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:36:20 -0500 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <1626f3f3-3990-024b-07ca-0a8a1160afad@jbrain.com> <8e7670ac-a886-5ccf-2316-01bae5962760@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6985231a-4e2d-18bf-d706-45e23d83861c@jbrain.com> On 5/26/2020 6:30 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> > > Outside of CP/M were *any* mainstream American home computers Z80 >> > > based before the C128? >>> Yes.? TRS80. > > > I guess that I just have the wrong definition of "home computer". > It is subjective, and I will concede that MY definition may not be valid. Oh true.? I don't see your definition as wrong, I just never thought of them as "home machines", they looked (well, the 3/4/4P) very formal :-) > > I see model 2/12/16 as business computers, and marketed as such. Yes, indeed. > > I don't see the unexpanded cassette TRS80 model 1 as being ANYTHING > other than a home computer. Yeah, I'll concede that.? I forget about the Model 1. > Likewise, the 6809 Color Computer, which could have been MODIFIED into > something MUCH more. I'd agree on that being a home machine, but it was 6809, so didn't fit the question. > > The fully expanded model 1 was imminently suitable as a "home office" > computer.? Along with the 6502 Apple and MAYBE the Kaypro, which was > super as a home office machine, and was occasionally used as a > business machine. Although, I was laughed at for using an expanded > model 1 for some accounting and 6 person payroll in my auto repair shop. Hmm, I saw lots of people using the Kaypro for business, I guess I think too highly of it. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 26 19:04:10 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 17:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <2155ed25-3e22-82ce-e39e-b5305727463a@groessler.org> References: <2155ed25-3e22-82ce-e39e-b5305727463a@groessler.org> Message-ID: >> Fred >> ... discusses problems with SMARTDRV (in MS DOS 4.01 and later). On Tue, 26 May 2020, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: >> I'm not sure if it was technically a form of caching, but the AmigaDOS >> delayed floppy write (well before MS-DOS cache) caused enormous problems >> for Amiga users. (It may well have contributed significantly to the lack >> of market success.) >> Basic problem: you save something to a floppy, and pull it out. You now >> have a corrupted floppy. You needed to wait a few seconds for the OS to >> decide "well, looks like I better flush the last few dirty sectors out to >> that floppy". >> >> (I contend it was a form of write caching, designed to speed writing to >> floppies where writing tended to occur in nearby places.) also, the Amiga wrote track rather than sector at a time, so a sector write needed to be delayed until the track was ready to be written > They probably would just have to implement a "sync" command, and tell people > to use use it before ejecting a disk... computer/OS control of disk eject and power is what's needed to solve it. Either hardware locks, or very thorough (difficult) eductaion of users. If the user ASKS THE OS to eject the disk, then it can easily be delayed until safe to do it. Similar with power shutdown (which users are now familiar with) In addition, the performance improvement that SMARTDRV did of optimizing the sequence of multiple writes out of sequence (all directory sectors, THEN all disk sectors) was dangerous if there was an interruption (not necessarily just user) before it was finished. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 26 20:24:14 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 19:24:14 -0600 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <596de834-45a4-812d-7b02-2ba99a5ba17b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/26/2020 1:35 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > "did O/S's change" in what way? You had ample memory to run your programs without swapping providing only a few users were online. > The IBM PL/I F compiler was available in 1966 and PL/I has structures. It > was usable on all "real" System/360 machines configured with 64KB or more > of memory, so even a 360/30 could be used, but not a 360/20, which isn't > actually a 360. > > There was a PL/I D compiler that would run under DOS/360 with only 16KB of > memory, but it was a very restricted subset of PL/I; I dodn't know whether > it had structures. > > ALGOL W also appeared in 1966 and had structures, known as records. Algol W was from Eroupe? > Of course, COBOL is even older and also had structures. Not everybody had access to power computing, some had to make do with a PDP 7 and write Unix. > Most sensible people did not wait until 1975 to start using high-level > languages, unless they had either tiny machines or real-time requirements > that couldn't be met with a high-level language. > Basic fit on the TINY MACHINES, and few made $$$ selling BASIC. You still can't get a free copy of BASIC for your 8080. Ben. Ps Writing my own language Bengol, a boot strap language written in C . I expect it to be about 32KB with a 16Kb O/S. The FPGA card gives me 256KB ram so I feel the homebrew cpu can compete with a basic PDP-11 in 1976. (.7 us (300 ns dram) memory cycle, 2 8" DSSD floppies, 2400 baud terminal +48KB memory. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 26 20:39:11 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:39:11 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <596de834-45a4-812d-7b02-2ba99a5ba17b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> <596de834-45a4-812d-7b02-2ba99a5ba17b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Algol W was from Eroupe? > Algol W was from Stanford, written by Wirth when he was there From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 26 20:44:16 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:44:16 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> <596de834-45a4-812d-7b02-2ba99a5ba17b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <184d6839-2a4f-f125-8241-ffb8d78bdf76@bitsavers.org> On 5/26/20 6:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > >> Algol W was from Eroupe? >> > > Algol W was from Stanford, written by Wirth when he was there > > > Actually, by Dick Sites http://bitsavers.org/pdf/stanford/cs_techReports/STAN-CS-71-230_Algol_W_Reference_Manual_Feb72.pdf From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 26 21:25:47 2020 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 21:25:47 -0500 Subject: HP 9817 Usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ECDCFAB.5010703@cimmeri.com> On 5/26/2020 10:30 AM, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > Hello! > > I have an HP 9817 and its accompanying 9133D disk drive unit. > > The disk drive seems like a rather large can of worms, so I've been ignoring it. I re-capped the 9817's power supply. It powers up and it passes all of its diagnostics according to the LEDs on the motherboard. I can see that it is outputting a picture on the composite video connector, but I don't have any displays that will accept the weird sync frequency that it uses. Which video interface do you have? From lars at nocrew.org Tue May 26 23:34:55 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 04:34:55 +0000 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: (Al Kossow via cctalk's message of "Tue, 26 May 2020 18:39:11 -0700") References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> <596de834-45a4-812d-7b02-2ba99a5ba17b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7wzh9uatcg.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Al Kossow wrote: >> Algol W was from Eroupe? > Algol W was from Stanford, written by Wirth when he was there I wonder if there's any connection to Stanford's SAIL language? From ylee at columbia.edu Tue May 26 16:19:41 2020 From: ylee at columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 14:19:41 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24269.34797.372944.721344@dobie.ylee.org> Fred Cisin says: > But, instead, it looked as though they just replaced the dollar sign > with pound sign, and ignored the exchange rate! So, you paid about > twice as much for the machines. I have heard prices of PET: 600 > pounds (V $600), Apple: 1200 pounds (V$1200), and TRS80: 500 pounds > (V $400 to $600) Longstanding tradition in the British computers market. "*New Scientist* stated in 1977 that 'the price of an American kit in dollars rapidly translates into the same figure in pounds sterling by the time it has reached the shores of Britain'." ? -- geo:37.783333,-122.416667 From kevenm at 3kranger.com Tue May 26 18:42:22 2020 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:42:22 -0700 Subject: HP 550C Deskjet color printer References: <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A88C3CFB50242B49ACBBC28C776A23D@ranger1> I have an old HP DeskJet 550C color printer - inkjet, that I'm ready to part with. It does basic PCL. Anyone with interest in it? pictures at http://www.3kranger.com/ForSale/ It uses ink HP51626A black, HP51625A tri-color cartridges. It also has 2 cartridges as well. 1. DeskJet 500 Brush point 12,18,24 2. HP 22706A Courier 12pt w/italic, HP LineDraw You'll need to cover shipping from Newport OR 97365. Has power cord and user guide. Keven Miller Kevenm at 3kranger.com From Anders.Gustafsson at pedago.fi Wed May 27 00:08:01 2020 From: Anders.Gustafsson at pedago.fi (Anders Gustafsson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 08:08:01 +0300 Subject: HP 9817 Usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ECDF5B1020000280010E223@pamir.pedago.fi> You may want to have a peek at the sync separator I built for my 9000-340. The schematics are available over at VintHp I am also in the process of building a PS/2 and USB to HIL adapter: http://www.dalton.ax/hpkbd/hil/ As for disks. This is one option: http://www.dalton.ax/hpdisk/ Ansgar's HPDrive is another: https://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ -- Med v?nlig h?lsning Anders Gustafsson, ingenj?r anders.gustafsson at pedago.fi | Support +358 18 12060 | Direkt +358 9 315 45 121 | Mobil +358 40506 7099 Pedago interaktiv ab, Nygatan 6 (kontor), Nygatan 7 B (kurslokal), AX-22100 MARIEHAMN, ?LAND, FINLAND >>> 2020-05-26 20:00 >>> Should I look at buying a monitor that can support the composite video sync and get an HIL keyboard (or build an adapter)? Does the machine not support using a terminal over the serial port as a console at boot? From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 27 01:07:41 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 06:07:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 550C Deskjet color printer In-Reply-To: <5A88C3CFB50242B49ACBBC28C776A23D@ranger1> References: <0d8c597f-8e33-f7db-3b25-cce07c480c38@sydex.com> <5A88C3CFB50242B49ACBBC28C776A23D@ranger1> Message-ID: <1036087079.180844.1590559661887@mail.yahoo.com> Keven? ?we? would love it? for the? pc? products? display? at? smecc..!!Ed Sharpe In a message dated 5/26/2020 10:05:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I have an old HP DeskJet 550C color printer - inkjet,that I'm ready to part with. It does basic PCL.Anyone with interest in it? pictures at? http://www.3kranger.com/ForSale/ It uses ink HP51626A black, HP51625A tri-color cartridges.It also has 2 cartridges as well.? ? 1. DeskJet 500 Brush? point 12,18,24? ? 2.? HP 22706A Courier 12pt w/italic, HP LineDraw You'll need to cover shipping from Newport OR 97365.Has power cord and user guide. Keven MillerKevenm at 3kranger.com From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed May 27 05:55:46 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:55:46 +0200 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <24269.34797.372944.721344@dobie.ylee.org> References: <24269.34797.372944.721344@dobie.ylee.org> Message-ID: <20200527105546.GA24057@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 02:19:41PM -0700, Yeechang Lee via cctalk wrote: [...] > Longstanding tradition in the British computers market. > "*New Scientist* stated in 1977 that 'the price of an American kit in dollars > rapidly translates into the same figure in pounds sterling by the time it has > reached the shores of Britain'." > ? It's better now, though. Price differences can be explained by delivery costs, import duties, and VAT/sales tax. And in the case of 1977, middlemen who exploit the difficulty in importing stuff oneself. The USA is some sort of gravity well when it comes to postage. It's cheap-ish to send stuff to it, but unreasonably expensive to send stuff from there. So for a product actually made in the USA, USPS, UPS, etc all conspire to ratchet the price up. Now that this stuff is mostly made in China, postage is mostly independent of destination. (I observe a similar but smaller effect for stuff crossing the North Sea, which is also where where Royal Mail and PostNL apparently like to dump parcels rather than hand over to their opposite number for delivery.) Other than that, there is currently no EU import duty on computers. Countries set their own VAT rates, which is generally around 20%. One difference here is that the USA quotes prices exclusive of sales tax, whereas consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT. So that's an apparent ~20% difference in sticker price even for something that costs the same either side of the pond. B2B prices in the EU are quoted exclusive of VAT ("ex-VAT") and are thus more comparable like-for-like with USA prices. UK VAT was 8% back in 1977, except for "petrol and some luxury goods" which was 12.5%. It's possible that computers were considered luxury goods, but since the main purchasers back then would be businesses who effectively do not pay VAT, this is moot. Businesses and consumers alike would still have to pay import duties, which I suspect would have ben quite formidable back then. These days, the ex-VAT price of mass-produced tech goods and similar generic non-perishables seem to be pretty much the same across the world. For example Amazon ASIN B07FNK6QMT is ?149.99 in Germany (inc 19% VAT; ?126.04 ex-VAT), ?152.51 in the Netherlands (inc 21% VAT; ?126.04 ex-VAT again), and ?139.99 (=?156.61) in the UK (inc 20% VAT; ?130.51 ex-VAT). The same product with a different ASIN is $139.99 (=?126.94 before sales tax) from the USA. Oddly enough, I tend to import this sort of thing from Germany. I'll pass on that particular Brexit Bonus. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed May 27 06:23:38 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 13:23:38 +0200 Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: References: <2155ed25-3e22-82ce-e39e-b5305727463a@groessler.org> Message-ID: <20200527112338.GB24057@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 05:04:10PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > also, the Amiga wrote track rather than sector at a time, so a sector write > needed to be delayed until the track was ready to be written And could therefore corrupt ten unrelated sectors from other files at the same time. When it popped up "You MUST replace volume Empty in DF0:", it was not messing about. [...] > computer/OS control of disk eject and power is what's needed to solve it. > Either hardware locks, or very thorough (difficult) eductaion of users. If > the user ASKS THE OS to eject the disk, then it can easily be delayed until > safe to do it. Similar with power shutdown (which users are now familiar > with) There are SCSI commands for locking drives and performing eject and contemporary operating systems do seem to use them. You'll mostly observe this when using optical media because that's the only non-obsolete hardware left which still supports them, and most of the time they're used for read-only media anyway so it's somewhat moot. I would be most intrigued to see what a hardware lock and soft-eject for a USB key would look like. > In addition, the performance improvement that SMARTDRV did of optimizing the > sequence of multiple writes out of sequence (all directory sectors, THEN all > disk sectors) was dangerous if there was an interruption (not necessarily > just user) before it was finished. Fortunately, there now exist robust filesystems which ensure that partial writes are not visible and that only the last few seconds of uncommitted data still in the write queue is lost. Unfortunately, these tend not to be used much because they're "slow"[0] and/or because it's on removable media formatted with a joke filesystem because of Windows. [0] For anybody who values throughput over durability, may I recommend /dev/null for the ultimate in performance? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 27 06:35:09 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:35:09 +0100 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <20200527105546.GA24057@mooli.org.uk> References: <24269.34797.372944.721344@dobie.ylee.org> <20200527105546.GA24057@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 27/05/2020 11:55, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > It's better now, though. Price differences can be explained by delivery costs, > import duties, and VAT/sales tax. And in the case of 1977, middlemen who > exploit the difficulty in importing stuff oneself. > > The USA is some sort of gravity well when it comes to postage. It's cheap-ish > to send stuff to it, but unreasonably expensive to send stuff from there. So > for a product actually made in the USA, USPS, UPS, etc all conspire to ratchet > the price up. Very often, yes. I see that most notably when I look at huge shipping charges for stuff on eBay.co.uk or from the Global Store as seen on Amazon.co.uk. Yet it's not always the case. Recently I needed a part for a Weller soldering station originally bought from Farnell in the UK. They're a Weller agent, only a few tens of miles from where I live, so the logical place to look. Nevertheless, it was almost 40% cheaper to buy the part from Digikey, including UPS shipping from Texas to my address in the the UK, where it arrived in 36 hours. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From camiel at camicom.com Wed May 27 02:25:07 2020 From: camiel at camicom.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:25:07 +0200 Subject: Looking for docs, software for Lomac DAVID Message-ID: I?ve received a Logical Machine Corporation (Lomac) DAVID system, which appears to be successor to the Lomac ADAM. The system consists of the main box with an 8? floppy drive (labeled ?DAVID PROCESSOR?), a keyboard/monitor box (labeled ?DAVID DISPLAY?), and a printer. I am looking for both documentation and software for this system. The first thing I need to sort out is how to connect the display and processor. The display has a single cable with a male DB-25 connector; the processor has a connector labeled ?DISPLAY?, but it?s a female DC-37 connector. If anyone ever had or worked with one of these, perhaps they remember if there was some kind of adapter in between. Camiel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 27 09:02:37 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:02:37 -0400 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC In-Reply-To: <596de834-45a4-812d-7b02-2ba99a5ba17b@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8be0d92c-b77b-245b-b4dd-03b7b2a7f047@jwsss.com> <7a2f9ec2-c4ea-1cb4-5f8c-c3899f3cd380@btinternet.com> <5e434b4f-d772-6266-05a9-6393a96d3255@jetnet.ab.ca> <596de834-45a4-812d-7b02-2ba99a5ba17b@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 5/26/20 9:24 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/26/2020 1:35 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > >> Of course, COBOL is even older and also had structures. > > > Not everybody had access to power computing, some had to make do with > a PDP 7 and write Unix. > You seem to place very high needs on COBOL. Most early mainframes had less memory than the home computers mentioned here. I developed COBOL programs on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory and 4 RX02 8" floppies. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 27 13:12:10 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: history is hard In-Reply-To: <20200527112338.GB24057@mooli.org.uk> References: <2155ed25-3e22-82ce-e39e-b5305727463a@groessler.org> <20200527112338.GB24057@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 May 2020, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > I would be most intrigued to see what a hardware lock and soft-eject for a USB > key would look like. Eject would require fairly precise fit for a solenoid follower around the perimeter. Are the square holes in the USB-A top and bottom side standardized? Are they strong enough to discourage ham-fisted users? (needs to also ba a flashing light surrounding the port!) Would red/green lights be enough to help mitigate the problem? Win7 does sometimes erroneously report a device in use when all application programs that accessed it have been closed. I am unaware of how to query "WHICH program claims to still be using it?" But the memory leaks and a few other problems are enough that WIN7 can benefit from periodic restarts. It, at least MY copies, are definitely NOT a permanently ON OS. > Fortunately, there now exist robust filesystems which ensure that partial > writes are not visible and that only the last few seconds of uncommitted data > still in the write queue is lost. Unfortunately, these tend not to be used much > because they're "slow"[0] and/or because it's on removable media formatted with > a joke filesystem because of Windows. A joke operating system doesn't provide much CHOICE of which filesystems to use. And it dates back decades, even to "advice" columns in magazines recommending to turn VERIFY off in DOS. (NOTE: for those unfamiliar: "VERIFY" (both DOS and Int13h) was not a read after write compare of content; it merely confirmed that each sector that was written was readable.) > [0] For anybody who values throughput over durability, may I recommend > /dev/null for the ultimate in performance? From pat at vax11.net Wed May 27 14:38:27 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:38:27 -0400 Subject: Replacing cables sheaths? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:22 PM Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > Does anyone know of an effective technique to replace the sheath of a > cable without needing to reterminate the ends? On all of the Apple power > adapter cables I've used the plastic sheath starts to fall apart, but the > adapter itself and the cable conductors are still useable. Something that > results in a reasonably flexible coating that doesn't look like a horrible > accident happened to the cable? :-) > If you can't use heat-shrink tubing, it sounds to me like a good use for Plasti Dip. Just cover up the connector end first... Pat From cruff at ruffspot.net Wed May 27 13:21:44 2020 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:21:44 -0600 Subject: Replacing cables sheaths? Message-ID: Does anyone know of an effective technique to replace the sheath of a cable without needing to reterminate the ends? On all of the Apple power adapter cables I've used the plastic sheath starts to fall apart, but the adapter itself and the cable conductors are still useable. Something that results in a reasonably flexible coating that doesn't look like a horrible accident happened to the cable? :-) From laurens at daemon.be Wed May 27 14:07:30 2020 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:07:30 -0700 Subject: Looking for Cobalt Qube cases Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for Cobalt Qube cases, preferably in North America. I would prefer non working Qubes as I don't want to deprive anyone of working ones. Doesn't matter whether it's a 1, 2 or 3. I'm looking to repurpose the cases. Thanks! From paul at mcjones.org Wed May 27 14:32:39 2020 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:32:39 -0700 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 26, 2020, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/26/20 6:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> Algol W was from Eroupe? >> >> Algol W was from Stanford, written by Wirth when he was there > > Actually, by Dick Sites > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/stanford/cs_techReports/STAN-CS-71-230_Algol_W_Reference_Manual_Feb72.pdf Dick must have done a lot of work on that version, but an earlier manual by Henry R. Bauer, Sheldon Becker, and Susan L . Graham says: The project was initiated and directed by Professor Niklaus Wirth, who proposed many of the ideas incorporated in the compiler and suggested ways to bring them about. Joseph W. Wells, Jr. and Edwin H. Satterthwaite, Jr. wrote the PL/360 System in which the compiler is embedded, the linkages to the compiler, and the loader. Although the authors did the bulk of the programming for the compiler, valuable contributions were made by Larry L, Bumgarner, Jean-Paul Rossiensky, Joyce B. Keckler, Patricia V. Koenig, John Perine, and Elizabeth Fong. http://i.stanford.edu/pub/cstr/reports/cs/tr/68/98/CS-TR-68-98.pdf And Ed Satthertwaite wrote a source-level debugger for the system. More on Algol W here: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/algol60impl/#ALGOL_W and more on the designs that led up to it here (search for the names Wirth and Hoare): http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/standards/ in particular: N. Wirth and C. A. R. Hoare. A contribution to the development of ALGOL. Communications of the ACM, Volume 9, Number 6 (June 1966), pages 413-432. ACM Digital Library "Euler caught the attention of the IFIP Working Group that was engaged in planning the future of ALGOL. The language ALGOL 60, designed by and for numerical mathematicians, had a systematic structure and a concise definition that were appreciated by mathematically trained people but lacked compilers and support by industry. To gain acceptance, its range of application had to be widened. The Working Group assumed the task of proposing a successor and soon split into two camps. On one side were the ambitious who wanted to erect another milestone in language design, and, on the other, those who felt that time was pressing and that an adequately extended ALGOL 60 would be a productive endeavor. I belonged to this second party and submitted a proposal that lost the election. Thereafter, the proposal was improved with contributions from Tony Hoare (a member of the same group) and implemented on Stanford University's first IBM 360. The language later became known as ALGOL W and was used in several universities for teaching purposes." [Wirth 1985 ] From commodorejohn at gmail.com Wed May 27 14:40:12 2020 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:40:12 -0700 Subject: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC Message-ID: Liam Proven wrote: > I don't know. There is a huge amount of tradition and culture in > computing now, and as a result, few people seem to have informed, > relatively unbiased opinions. There hasn't been much real diversity in > decades. > > 25 or 30y ago, people discussed the merits of Smalltalk or Prolog or > Forth; now most people have never seen or heard of them, and it's just > which curly-bracket language you favour, or does your preferred > language run in a VM or is it compiled to a native binary. Agreed. While I'm much more favorably disposed towards C than you are, the increasing homogeneity of almost all modern languages is discouraging and, I think, detrimental to the field as a whole. Forth and Smalltalk alike were eye-openers when I discovered them (and Smalltalk in particular was a breath of fresh air, after I'd spent years failing to ever really grok OOP with the likes of C++ and Java,) because both presented genuinely *different* and beautifully consistent ways to think about structuring and specifying a computer program. These days, though, outside of deliberately jokey ultra-esoteric languages, it's pretty much just a bunch of domain-specific Java/Javascript knockoffs from horizon to horizon. > I am just surprised that this (to me) rather inelegant design survived > and got to market, given what you've said about the same company's > ruthless drive for cost-cutting removed one PCB trace even though it > killed floppy-disk performance, or wouldn't use an extra ROM chip > because it was too expensive. > > It seems inconsistent. It's marketing - consistency there is a non-consideration, if not actively striven against. The whole saga with CP/M on CBM was a boondoggle - the CP/M cart existed because business customers wanted a CP/M add-in to run their spreadsheets and their whatnot, but it didn't end up being a good fit for reasons already stated (slow CPU, slow disk, 40-column only.) The 128 improved on those points, but not nearly enough to become competitive with the advancements CP/M machines had made in that time, and in the process wasted precious man-hours and drove up the cost and complexity of the unit - and all the while CP/M had been losing ground to MS-DOS in the business market for years! But marketing promised it, so it had to happen... :/ From paul at mcjones.org Wed May 27 14:45:42 2020 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:45:42 -0700 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 27, 2020, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >>> Algol W was from Eroupe? >> Algol W was from Stanford, written by Wirth when he was there > > I wonder if there's any connection to Stanford's SAIL language? Good question. I believe the answer is ?Wirth was initially involved with both?. Here?s a bit of history in the Preface to a SAIL manual: HISTORY OF THE LANGUAGE The GOGOL III compiler, developed principally by Dan Swinehart at the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Project, was the basis for the non-LEAP portions of SAIL. Robert Sproull joined Swinehart in incorporating the features of LEAP The first version of the language was released in November, 1969. SAIL's intermediate development was the responsibility of Russell Taylor, Jim Low, and Hanan Samet, who introduced processes, procedure variables, interrupts, contexts, matching procedures, a new macro system, and other features. Most recently John Reiser, Robert Smith, and Russell Taylor maintained and extended SAIL. They added a high-level debugger, conversion to TENEX, a print statement, and records and references. http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib20-01/01/decus/20-0002/sail.man.html And here?s a 1964 Stanford TimeSharing Project Memo by McKeeman and Wirth on Gogol: Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 time sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the syntactical definition of the language and a number of sample programs as well as a brief description of the operational characteristics of the compiler. Gogol was designed to permit fast compilation of efficient machine code directly into memory. The speed of compilation together with the accessibility of the text editor make program de- bugging relatively rapid. The examples presented here plus the availability of the compiler should form an adequate basis for learning to use the language. More detailed information depends heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware. https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 27 15:17:58 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:17:58 -0400 Subject: Last MSV11-P question: Using them as Q bus memories Message-ID: <227be1d2-a443-baf2-83c6-635080ac525d@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, so we banged the MSV11-P revision B/C memory issues into the ground (looks like the problem is burst mode DMA on Q Bus can cause random failures that corrupt disks) however does anyone know if the bug will affect the board if you use it as a normal Q bus memory board? In other words, if you put the board *below* an 11/73 or 11/83 so it reports as a non-PMI memory will it still have the same problem? I'd like to run my system with a full 4mb of memory, using my normal parity 2mb board and a 2mb MSV11-P board that was from an 11/83? Inquiring minds want to know :-) C From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 15:21:39 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:21:39 -0600 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/27/2020 1:45 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: > And here?s a 1964 Stanford TimeSharing Project Memo by McKeeman and Wirth on Gogol: > > Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 time sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the syntactical definition of the language and a number of sample programs as well as a brief description of the operational characteristics of the compiler. Gogol was designed to permit fast compilation of efficient machine code directly into memory. The speed of compilation together with the accessibility of the text editor make program de- bugging relatively rapid. The examples presented here plus the availability of the compiler should form an adequate basis for learning to use the language. More detailed information depends heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware. > > https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf > Do we have CODE? PDP-1's seems to be showing up more often than a PDP 8 as retro project. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 15:21:39 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:21:39 -0600 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/27/2020 1:45 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: > And here?s a 1964 Stanford TimeSharing Project Memo by McKeeman and Wirth on Gogol: > > Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 time sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the syntactical definition of the language and a number of sample programs as well as a brief description of the operational characteristics of the compiler. Gogol was designed to permit fast compilation of efficient machine code directly into memory. The speed of compilation together with the accessibility of the text editor make program de- bugging relatively rapid. The examples presented here plus the availability of the compiler should form an adequate basis for learning to use the language. More detailed information depends heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware. > > https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf > Do we have CODE? PDP-1's seems to be showing up more often than a PDP 8 as retro project. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 15:25:00 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:25:00 -0600 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/27/2020 1:45 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: > Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 time sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the syntactical definition of the language and a number of sample programs as well as a brief description of the operational characteristics of the compiler. Gogol was designed to permit fast compilation of efficient machine code directly into memory. The speed of compilation together with the accessibility of the text editor make program de- bugging relatively rapid. The examples presented here plus the availability of the compiler should form an adequate basis for learning to use the language. More detailed information depends heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware. > > https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf > Interesting the asignment is -> (arrow) and the right side of expression. Ascii dropping the arrow symbol may have messed up a few langauges. Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 27 15:42:21 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:42:21 -0400 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <546932ad-1250-7421-21df-32136c82136d@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-05-27 4:25 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/27/2020 1:45 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: > >> Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 >> time sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the >> syntactical definition of the language and a number of sample programs >> as well as a brief description of the operational characteristics of >> the compiler. Gogol was designed to permit fast compilation of >> efficient machine code directly into memory. The speed of compilation >> together with the accessibility of the text editor make program de- >> bugging relatively rapid. The examples presented here plus the >> availability of the compiler should form an adequate basis for >> learning to use the language. More detailed information depends >> heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware. >> >> https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf >> > Interesting the asignment is -> (arrow) and the right side of > expression. Ascii dropping the arrow symbol may have messed up a few > langauges. > Ben. > It's easily worked around. This is how a lot of people code today in relatively modern languages: https://imgur.com/ESMFgNb --Toby [Fira Code fwiw] From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 27 15:59:40 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:59:40 -0400 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On May 27, 2020, at 4:25 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/27/2020 1:45 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: > >> Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 time sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the syntactical definition of the language and a number of sample programs as well as a brief description of the operational characteristics of the compiler. Gogol was designed to permit fast compilation of efficient machine code directly into memory. The speed of compilation together with the accessibility of the text editor make program de- bugging relatively rapid. The examples presented here plus the availability of the compiler should form an adequate basis for learning to use the language. More detailed information depends heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware. >> https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf > Interesting the asignment is -> (arrow) and the right side of expression. I remember that from POP-2, which I think was created at U of Edinborough. At least we used it at University of Illinois on an AI course taught by a visiting professor who came from there. Odd language, I haven't seen it since. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 27 16:52:51 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:52:51 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum Message-ID: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that actually means. TTFN - Guy From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 27 16:57:00 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 May 2020, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were > suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that > actually means. > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 27 17:01:00 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:01:00 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <3efce748243eef3ef645cda038590d735b374fd0.camel@shiresoft.com> On Wed, 2020-05-27 at 14:57 -0700, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 27 May 2020, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they > > were > > suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that > > actually means. > > > > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. That I knew. It's just that the email that was sent sounded pretty ominous. TTFN - Guy From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 27 17:01:58 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:01:58 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <61f2bcf8-d73a-6eda-ab13-85f3e219a928@alembic.crystel.com> Hm. Well, if I have to drive out there and pick up AI, the letter is there. Just let me know..... C On 5/27/2020 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were > suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that > actually means. > > TTFN - Guy > From edcross at gmail.com Wed May 27 17:11:01 2020 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 00:11:01 +0200 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <61f2bcf8-d73a-6eda-ab13-85f3e219a928@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> <61f2bcf8-d73a-6eda-ab13-85f3e219a928@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: https://www.livingcomputers.org/Closure.aspx On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:02 AM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hm. Well, if I have to drive out there and pick up AI, the letter is > there. Just let me know..... > > C > > On 5/27/2020 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were > > suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that > > actually means. > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > From leec2124 at gmail.com Wed May 27 17:25:47 2020 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:25:47 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: "In the coming weeks we?ll follow up with information about ticket, membership and donation refunds." The "membership and donation refunds." bothers me the most, especially with Paul Allen no longer on the scene. If LCM were to cease operations permanently that would be a disaster, as there is no institution that performs the preservation, restoration, and hands-on public education function as well as them. :-( Lee C. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were > suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that > actually means. > > TTFN - Guy > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From john at forecast.name Wed May 27 17:31:34 2020 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:31:34 -0400 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <36488B6D-B468-4BA4-85F3-CC007B0F6D4C@forecast.name> On May 27, 2020, at 4:59 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On May 27, 2020, at 4:25 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 5/27/2020 1:45 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 time sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the syntactical definition of the language and a number of sample programs as well as a brief description of the operational characteristics of the compiler. Gogol was designed to permit fast compilation of efficient machine code directly into memory. The speed of compilation together with the accessibility of the text editor make program de- bugging relatively rapid. The examples presented here plus the availability of the compiler should form an adequate basis for learning to use the language. More detailed information depends heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware. >>> https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf >> Interesting the asignment is -> (arrow) and the right side of expression. > > I remember that from POP-2, which I think was created at U of Edinborough. At least we used it at University of Illinois on an AI course taught by a visiting professor who came from there. Odd language, I haven't seen it since. > I used POP-2 at the University of Lancaster (ICL1909) and the University of Essex (PDP-10) in the late ?60s and early ?70s. The language implemented an open stack so to swap the contents of 2 variables you would use: A, B ->A ->B POP-2 later morphed into POP-11 running under Unix on a PDP-11. Later came POPLOG which merged in support for PROLOG and LISP. There is a open-source implementation of POPLOG available. John. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 17:56:42 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:56:42 -0600 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: <546932ad-1250-7421-21df-32136c82136d@telegraphics.com.au> References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> <546932ad-1250-7421-21df-32136c82136d@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 5/27/2020 2:42 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > It's easily worked around. This is how a lot of people code today in > relatively modern languages: > > https://imgur.com/ESMFgNb Arg a web page! The first thing that comes to mind is "How many terrabytes" for "hello World". This might mean modern for most people,but a language that has no leaky memory might be more useful, or say easy to use lists like in lisp. > --Toby > > [Fira Code fwiw] Modern machines have many good features, but they all are the blah-humbug copies of each other. Blinking light computers on the other hand... Ben. From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Wed May 27 18:11:33 2020 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:11:33 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Indeed. This looks bad. Hopefully they can pull a rabbit out of their hat and figure out how to reopen, but I'm not holding my breath. Mike On Wed, May 27, 2020, 6:26 PM Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > "In the coming weeks we?ll follow up with information about ticket, > membership and donation refunds." > > The "membership and donation refunds." bothers me the most, especially with > Paul Allen no longer on the scene. > > If LCM were to cease operations permanently that would be a disaster, as > there is no institution that performs the preservation, restoration, and > hands-on public education function as well as them. :-( > > Lee C. > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were > > suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that > > actually means. > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell > From ethan at 757.org Wed May 27 18:29:18 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Indeed. This looks bad. Hopefully they can pull a rabbit out of their hat > and figure out how to reopen, but I'm not holding my breath. > Mike That place was funded by Paul Allen right? I would have thought it would have been setup to last many years. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 27 18:35:44 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:35:44 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the points that they are allowed to by government order. It is unfortunate for the paid staff. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 27 18:47:32 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:47:32 -0400 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> <546932ad-1250-7421-21df-32136c82136d@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2020-05-27 6:56 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/27/2020 2:42 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > >> It's easily worked around. This is how a lot of people code today in >> relatively modern languages: >> >> https://imgur.com/ESMFgNb > > Arg a web page! I'm sorry if the sight of a URL is shocking. They are fairly new, I know. But does the list actually support attachments? > ... > > Ben. > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 27 18:58:21 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:58:21 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. > > A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are > confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the > points that they are allowed to by government order. > > It is unfortunate for the paid staff. > > -- > Will > Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary. The artifacts are not going anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool and prepare to re-open a-fresh b From ian at platinum.net Wed May 27 19:13:55 2020 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:13:55 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: This related story makes the situation a bit scarier. https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/ Ian > On May 27, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. >> >> A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are >> confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the >> points that they are allowed to by government order. >> >> It is unfortunate for the paid staff. >> >> -- >> Will >> > > Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary. The artifacts are not going > anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool > and prepare to re-open a-fresh > b From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 27 19:38:02 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:38:02 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <57BA1EE2-419E-4357-A7C1-6C050E47D723@avanthar.com> That?s worrying. When the Historical Resource Center I was working with in my area shutdown a few years ago, Ian came down and collected a U-Haul worth of stuff, including part of my personal collection. What I really regret sending up there is a large box of Honeywell DPS-8 documentation from when I worked at a DPS-8 Mainframe site. I believe Richard Alderson is on this list, hopefully he?ll comment on their status. Zane > On May 27, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote: > > This related story makes the situation a bit scarier. > > https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/ > > > Ian From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 27 19:40:04 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:40:04 -0700 Subject: Replacing cables sheaths? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6da6ef31-dd59-023d-aabb-75ddc9f13f3b@sydex.com> On 5/27/20 12:38 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:22 PM Craig Ruff via cctech > wrote: > >> Does anyone know of an effective technique to replace the sheath of a >> cable without needing to reterminate the ends? On all of the Apple power >> adapter cables I've used the plastic sheath starts to fall apart, but the >> adapter itself and the cable conductors are still useable. Something that >> results in a reasonably flexible coating that doesn't look like a horrible >> accident happened to the cable? :-) >> > > If you can't use heat-shrink tubing, it sounds to me like a good use for > Plasti Dip. Just cover up the connector end first... > > Pat > There are a few products offered under the label of "wrap-around heat shrink tubing". Not cheap. --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed May 27 20:06:02 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 21:06:02 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1a8bc7db-6803-40f0-0f89-42259dd967a7@alembic.crystel.com> Aw shit.... (Where is the nearest U Haul?) CZ On 5/27/2020 8:13 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote: > This related story makes the situation a bit scarier. > > https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/ > > Ian > > >> On May 27, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>>> They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. >>> >>> A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are >>> confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the >>> points that they are allowed to by government order. >>> >>> It is unfortunate for the paid staff. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >> >> Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary. The artifacts are not going >> anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool >> and prepare to re-open a-fresh >> b > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 27 20:13:28 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 21:13:28 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1a8bc7db-6803-40f0-0f89-42259dd967a7@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> <1a8bc7db-6803-40f0-0f89-42259dd967a7@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: If you're in South Eastern Pennsylvania, Kennett Classic is open; lean and mean and I suppose and a 50th of the LCM but open nonetheless (by appointment). The sign on the door reads "No shoes, no shirt, no mask- no service. I was there all day today. Currently working to decipher some Honeywell DDP-516 papertapes there, core memory on a PDP 8e, stuff like that. Finished repairs on a customer's C-64's. Visitors are welcome, kennettclassic.com. Bill On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:06 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Aw shit.... > > (Where is the nearest U Haul?) > > CZ > > On 5/27/2020 8:13 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote: > > This related story makes the situation a bit scarier. > > > > > https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/ > < > https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/ > > > > > > Ian > > > > > >> On May 27, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>>> They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. > >>> > >>> A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are > >>> confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the > >>> points that they are allowed to by government order. > >>> > >>> It is unfortunate for the paid staff. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Will > >>> > >> > >> Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary. The artifacts are not > going > >> anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to > retool > >> and prepare to re-open a-fresh > >> b > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 20:19:39 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:19:39 -0600 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> <546932ad-1250-7421-21df-32136c82136d@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5e81257c-259e-991f-f4e8-64476be4ce36@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/27/2020 5:47 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2020-05-27 6:56 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 5/27/2020 2:42 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >>> It's easily worked around. This is how a lot of people code today in >>> relatively modern languages: >>> >>> https://imgur.com/ESMFgNb >> >> Arg a web page! > > I'm sorry if the sight of a URL is shocking. They are fairly new, I know. At the moment I have no wish to fight a web site,to find what should be simple information. > But does the list actually support attachments? As far as I know it does not. I suspect because of spam and copywrites with program code or data. Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 27 20:19:48 2020 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 21:19:48 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: They probably don't know. Anytime somebody with $20B dies it will take years to sort out the estate because of taxes and people lining up for money due (legit or not). Any charities set up before he passed probably have to live off of what money they had on hand before his passing for a few years until the tax guys sign off on where the rest of his assets go. And since most of his wealth was in things (companies, buildings, stocks, art, etc.) when the taxes are decided on things have to be sold to pay for that. -----Original Message----- From: Guy Sotomayor via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 5:52 PM To: Paul Koning via cctalk Subject: Living Computer Museum I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were suspending operations. It wasn't clear from the email what that actually means. TTFN - Guy -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 27 20:22:53 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 21:22:53 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Anytime somebody with $20B dies it will take years to sort out the estate > because of taxes and people lining up for money due (legit or not). Yes, for people that had no "exit strategy", but somehow I think Paul Allen did some sort of estate planning before he passed... -- Will From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 27 20:25:10 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 21:25:10 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:23 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Anytime somebody with $20B dies it will take years to sort out the estate > > because of taxes and people lining up for money due (legit or not). > > Yes, for people that had no "exit strategy", but somehow I think Paul > Allen did some sort of estate planning before he passed... > > -- > Will > What is disturbing and perhaps not surprising that the people at the top have no interest in the museum. For them, shut it down for now allows for the more important stuff to be dealt with first. Big picture it's not important relative to other things like professional sports teams and islands in the Pacific. b From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 27 21:32:56 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:32:56 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> This is why people should avoid donating equipment directly to institutions and instead lend hardware to them. At least then you have a claim with which to try to get your stuff back if they fold, close, or decide to go in a direction you don?t like. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 27 21:40:57 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:40:57 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <35C96114-A08E-492F-9DC9-5680D469FE4F@eschatologist.net> The big problem with this situation is that it?s simply unnecessary: Living Computer Museum + Labs is not independent of Vulcan, and Vulcan can *easily* afford to keep the people who work there on payroll and working from home indefinitely. This is happening entirely because the people holding the pursestrings have no idea how to run a museum, or even what a museum *does*. It?s pretty clear that they think they can just pack things away for a while, then hire a few people to take tickets and put out exhbits when they decide to reopen, without any consideration to the kind of historical preservation work the museum is in the process of doing or even what might need to be done to prepare exhibits for public access, what it means to be ready to obtain, receive, and preserve newly-uncovered historical artifacts, and so on. https://twitter.com/eschaton/status/1265751114953011200 A group of people who actually understand (like Woz and Gates et al) should step in, take it off Vulcan?s hands, and endow it as an independent entity. And people should stop donating their collections to museums and lend them instead. -- Chris From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 27 21:43:55 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 22:43:55 -0400 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: <5e81257c-259e-991f-f4e8-64476be4ce36@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> <546932ad-1250-7421-21df-32136c82136d@telegraphics.com.au> <5e81257c-259e-991f-f4e8-64476be4ce36@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 2020-05-27 9:19 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 5/27/2020 5:47 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2020-05-27 6:56 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 5/27/2020 2:42 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> It's easily worked around. This is how a lot of people code today in >>>> relatively modern languages: >>>> >>>> https://imgur.com/ESMFgNb >>> >>> Arg a web page! >> >> I'm sorry if the sight of a URL is shocking. They are fairly new, I know. > > At the moment I have no wish to fight a web site,to find what should be > simple information. It's a picture. They can be useful. > >> But does the list actually support attachments? > > As far as I know it does not. I suspect because of spam and copywrites > with program code or data. > > Ben. > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 27 22:02:06 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 20:02:06 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> References: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> That wasn?t an option for most folks. They told me that they didn?t accept items on loan. alan > On May 27, 2020, at 19:33, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > ?This is why people should avoid donating equipment directly to institutions and instead lend hardware to them. > > At least then you have a claim with which to try to get your stuff back if they fold, close, or decide to go in a direction you don?t like. > > -- Chris > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 27 22:14:30 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 20:14:30 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> References: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On May 27, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > > That wasn?t an option for most folks. They told me that they didn?t accept items on loan. Well, that really sucks. -- Chris From jecel at merlintec.com Wed May 27 22:48:45 2020 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 00:48:45 -0300 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> References: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <20200528034848.9F7775409D7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Alan Perry wrote on Wed, 27 May 2020 20:02:06 -0700 > That wasn't an option for most folks. They told me that they didn't accept items on loan. > > alan > > > On May 27, 2020, at 19:33, Chris Hanson wrote: > > > > This is why people should avoid donating equipment directly to institutions and instead lend hardware to them. > > > > At least then you have a claim with which to try to get your stuff back if they fold, close, or decide to go in a direction you don't like. > > > > -- Chris > > I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff you loaned. A while back people were pressuring me to donate my stuff to the local university's computer museum (which I was helping). I knew that most of the professors were hostile to it (the idea is that history is irrelevant for computer science) and that the direction of the museum would change hands every two years. The things that happened since proved I was right to hold on to my stuff. -- Jecel From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed May 27 22:53:59 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 20:53:59 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20200528034848.9F7775409D7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> <20200528034848.9F7775409D7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote: > > I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who > don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff > you loaned. It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be fundamentally winnable when there?s explicitly no transfer of ownership. That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don?t take loans; they may want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so on. -- Chris From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 27 22:54:48 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 03:54:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1443062246.558280.1590638088251@mail.yahoo.com> most museums? of? all? varieties? are? closed? still....? the? smart? ones? will remain? so? for? a? while? longer...the foolish will jump? the? gun.Ed# sdIn a message dated 5/27/2020 2:57:12 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Wed, 27 May 2020, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were > suspending operations.? It wasn't clear from the email what that > actually means. > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 27 22:58:52 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 03:58:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> <61f2bcf8-d73a-6eda-ab13-85f3e219a928@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <2087252904.563117.1590638332727@mail.yahoo.com> yikes? that almost? has? a tome? of? finality? to it? eh? Ed# In a message dated 5/27/2020 3:11:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: https://www.livingcomputers.org/Closure.aspx On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:02 AM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hm. Well, if I have to drive out there and pick up AI, the letter is > there. Just let me know..... > > C > > On 5/27/2020 5:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > I just received an email from the Living Computer Museum that they were > > suspending operations.? It wasn't clear from the email what that > > actually means. > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 27 23:01:39 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 22:01:39 -0600 Subject: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC] In-Reply-To: References: <74235361-1420-01f7-07cc-fb95b9df2c3c@jetnet.ab.ca> <546932ad-1250-7421-21df-32136c82136d@telegraphics.com.au> <5e81257c-259e-991f-f4e8-64476be4ce36@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 5/27/2020 8:43 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> At the moment I have no wish to fight a web site,to find what should be >> simple information. > > It's a picture. They can be useful. That is why clicking with my mouse did nothing. I like if eif else fi for if statements. What keyboard are you using to get the fancy arrows? Ben. From ethan at 757.org Wed May 27 23:02:15 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 00:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <35C96114-A08E-492F-9DC9-5680D469FE4F@eschatologist.net> References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <35C96114-A08E-492F-9DC9-5680D469FE4F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > The big problem with this situation is that it?s simply unnecessary: > Living Computer Museum + Labs is not independent of Vulcan, and Vulcan > can *easily* afford to keep the people who work there on payroll and > working from home indefinitely. Did Vulcan have a lot of exposure to real estate? Real estate has been a huge asset bubble for a long time now. Covid is a perfect excuse for it popping, even though it's been long overdue for a while. If Vulcan is taking a hit or predicting they are going to take a hit then managers might axe all the creative stuff so they don't miss any bonuses. - Ethan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed May 27 23:50:36 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 21:50:36 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> <20200528034848.9F7775409D7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On 5/27/2020 8:53 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote: >> I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who >> don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff >> you loaned. > It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be fundamentally winnable when there?s explicitly no transfer of ownership. I'm in the process of signing a deed of trust assigning title and ownership to the CHM in Mountain View of a donation.? I did so with a previous donation. You have to consign them to history and hope the institution can sustain the trust they have to do so. I've talked with one friend there, and am very sad.? Saw another early friend's post on Facebook, who is very sad as well. thanks Jim > That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don?t take loans; they may want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so on. > > -- Chris > > From matti.nummi at hotmail.fi Wed May 27 15:42:09 2020 From: matti.nummi at hotmail.fi (Matti Nummi) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 20:42:09 +0000 Subject: Replacing cables sheaths? Message-ID: You can use cable lacing. It does not make it pretty(er), but usable. If You don't want to remove the connectors or cut the cable You cannot add any new sheath? There may be some fabric/wowen expandable sheaths which have been used on power cables earlier but I have no precise knowledge. Something like when You push it, it bulges. BR Matti From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Wed May 27 19:05:36 2020 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:05:36 +1000 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I live in hope for the tag ?for now?. It?s always my first place to visit when I fly in to the west coast. //m On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 9:58 am, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. > > > > A lot of smaller museums are going into hibernation. Most are > > confident they will reopen sometime in the future, but well past the > > points that they are allowed to by government order. > > > > It is unfortunate for the paid staff. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary. The artifacts are not going > anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool > and prepare to re-open a-fresh > b > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed May 27 20:13:08 2020 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 01:13:08 +0000 Subject: Living Computers: Museum + Labs Message-ID: Hello, everyone, As I'm sure all of you are aware, the COVID-19 pandemic has led to a crisis with devastating effects on many cultural organizations, and more especially on those which rely on public gatherings and special events to achieve their mission. Since before we opened to the public in 2012, our philosophy has been a simple one: To understand computing technology of any period, you need to experience that technology at first hand. The current global situation has made it difficult for us to serve our mission, and given so much uncertainty we have made the difficult decision to suspend all operations of LCM+L for now. We will spend the months ahead reassessing if, how, and when to reopen. Because that will not happen in any short time frame, the staff, including me, have been laid off. On a personal note, the last 17 years, since July 2003, have been a time of growth, excitement, and backbreaking labor which I would not trade for anything. The friendships I have formed, in the community at large (and it is international in scope) as well as among my colleagues here, are a comfort to me. I'll be subscribed from a personal address once that is moderator-approved. Thank you all for your interest in and support for Living Computers: Museum + Labs, and our previous incarnations. It means a great deal to us as we wind down the current implementation. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 Cell: (206) 465-2916 Desk: (206) 342-2239 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 27 23:03:31 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 04:03:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for Cobalt Qube cases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1030753799.564872.1590638611186@mail.yahoo.com> what are you dong with the cases? since? we? are keeping? a? cube? as? a? display? might? like? ?sow? extra? guts? ?for? backup....Ed#? ? SMECC In a message dated 5/27/2020 12:45:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Hello, I'm looking for Cobalt Qube cases, preferably in North America. I would prefer non working Qubes as I don't want to deprive anyone of working ones. Doesn't matter whether it's a 1, 2 or 3. I'm looking to repurpose the cases. Thanks! From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu May 28 00:36:09 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 22:36:09 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <35C96114-A08E-492F-9DC9-5680D469FE4F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <1e6cb4a1-74c2-f82b-db97-536ec17801e9@snowmoose.com> On 5/27/20 9:02 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> The big problem with this situation is that it?s simply unnecessary: >> Living Computer Museum + Labs is not independent of Vulcan, and Vulcan >> can *easily* afford to keep the people who work there on payroll and >> working from home indefinitely. > > Did Vulcan have a lot of exposure to real estate? Real estate has been a > huge asset bubble for a long time now. Covid is a perfect excuse for it > popping, even though it's been long overdue for a while. If Vulcan is > taking a hit or predicting they are going to take a hit then managers > might axe all the creative stuff so they don't miss any bonuses. Vulcan is reported to have pulled the plug on their entertainment division (Vulcan Arts + Entertainment). Also part of this is the Flying Heritage and Combat Armor Museum and they put out an announcement almost identical to the LCM+L announcement. The Seattle Cinerama theater and Seattle Art Fair are caught up in this as well. I don't know if the MoPOP (formerly the Experience Music Project, the Science Fiction Museum, and Science Fiction & Fantasy Hall of Fame, which occupied the same building) is part of this. alan From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 28 00:50:44 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 22:50:44 -0700 Subject: Replacing cables sheaths? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/27/20 1:42 PM, Matti Nummi via cctalk wrote: > You can use cable lacing. > It does not make it pretty(er), but usable. > If You don't want to remove the connectors or cut the cable > You cannot add any new sheath? > > There may be some fabric/wowen expandable sheaths > which have been used on power cables earlier but I have no precise knowledge. > Something like when You push it, it bulges. There's also "split wire loom" sheathing for cables. https://www.amazon.com/slp/wire-looms/h27byrkv7773975 --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Thu May 28 01:15:30 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 06:15:30 +0000 Subject: Early Nubus history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200528061530.GB22694@lonesome.com> Side note that has been lost to history. >From 1987-1990 I worked at Mizar Digital Systems, which built STD bus boards and VMEbus boards. Its new president who came in in 1988 I think, Joe Rammunni, decided that the STD bus was a dying technology, and looked into NuBus. As I understood at the time, he went and talked to various PC manufacturers to try to get them to adopt the standard as well, for their next round of upgrades from ISA. Nothing came of this. Without the unified market there wasn't any incentive for Mizar to get into the business. But just imagine what the tech world would have looked like with interchangeable cards for PCs and Apples. The only remnant of this effort are my vague personal recollections and a "NuBus on board" fridge magnet which I retain to this day. mcl From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 28 02:00:05 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 00:00:05 -0700 Subject: In search of SGI IRIS 1400 / 2000 era technical reference manuals & schematics Message-ID: Title says all. Thanks, - Ian From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 28 02:03:39 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 00:03:39 -0700 Subject: In search of Apollo DN100 Technical Reference Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi folks, I've recently acquired an Apollo DN100 I'd like to restore to former glory. Sadly, there are no schematics anywhere that I can find. I have seen this alluded to, but do not have a part number- anyone got a lead? Even better would be to find anything describing the PALs in the system. Separately, there is a 14" Priam DISKOS hard drive in here- not with the Priam interface used by the later SAU2 Apollos (DN300, etc.) but something else- perhaps the early ANSI interface option provided by Priam. If anyone has leads on - 1) The failure modes of these drives and 2) A replacement ? advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, - Ian From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu May 28 02:42:55 2020 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:42:55 +0100 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <5eb383386f93e36b035f6ddbbf73753d58cd59ce.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: His sister now runs his companies and has been dismantling his dreams. She already wrecked his space launch company. On Thu, 28 May 2020, 00:29 Ethan O'Toole via cctalk, wrote: > > Indeed. This looks bad. Hopefully they can pull a rabbit out of their hat > > and figure out how to reopen, but I'm not holding my breath. > > Mike > > That place was funded by Paul Allen right? I would have thought it would > have been setup to last many years. > > - Ethan > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 28 03:14:31 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 09:14:31 +0100 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> <20200528034848.9F7775409D7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <06ee01d634c8$043e65b0$0cbb3110$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Hanson via > cctalk > Sent: 28 May 2020 04:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum > > On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr > wrote: > > > > I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who > > don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff > > you loaned. > > It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be > fundamentally winnable when there?s explicitly no transfer of ownership. > > That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don?t take loans; they may > want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces > returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so > on. > > -- Chris Its a challenge. Most Museums refuse to accept loans. It?s a lot of admin. If the original owner dies what happens. Under what terms can it be removed. Value if stolen or damaged? If it is working and it breaks. A lot of hassle and risk. Dave From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 28 01:57:42 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 23:57:42 -0700 Subject: In search of Apollo DN100 Technical Reference Manual Message-ID: Hi folks, I've recently acquired an Apollo DN100 I'd like to restore to former glory. Sadly, there are no schematics anywhere that I can find. I have seen this alluded to, but do not have a part number- anyone got a lead? Even better would be to find anything describing the PALs in the system. Separately, there is a 14" Priam DISKOS hard drive in here- not with the Priam interface used by the later SAU2 Apollos (DN300, etc.) but something else- perhaps the early ANSI interface option provided by Priam. If anyone has leads on - 1) The failure modes of these drives and 2) A replacement ? advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, - Ian From coreyvcf at gmail.com Thu May 28 05:46:04 2020 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 06:46:04 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <06ee01d634c8$043e65b0$0cbb3110$@gmail.com> References: <1F7F5A94-9620-450C-B59B-54F9F5762E47@eschatologist.net> <19B776C3-B9C4-4F59-BECF-ABFBB207B92E@snowmoose.com> <20200528034848.9F7775409D7@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <06ee01d634c8$043e65b0$0cbb3110$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <535A67DC-2805-4E91-AAF4-C5B94CA2A7A3@gmail.com> I manage the finance for the VCF Museum and our shows, which means I also deal with our ?artifact loans?. It is a lot of paperwork. Only ?special? items are worth the hassle. As for museums closing? Its tough when you can?t have visitors who help pay for the day to day operational costs with the admission price and many of those visitors become potential sponsors. For us at VCF, this isn?t so bad because we don?t take any regular admission money from InfoAge (our parent museum) and are exclusively volunteers which allows us to have a much lower overhead than traditional museums like LCM. VCF is also an independent 501c3 charity which means there is a lot of help out there to keep our doors open and we also planned for rainy days. I can tell you that we had big plans for our shows this year, but so far two of those shows (including one at LCM) had to be moved to virtual thanks to Covid-19 so we are now in rainy day territory, but we actually planned for a monsoon, so we will be fine. Museums like LCM that aren?t quite a fully independent 501c3 charity yet (I think they had plans for this before Covid) will have trouble as their parent corporations look to save money. Hopefully LCM can make the transition and spread their support base out to the public, who I think are very appreciative of their mission. Cheers, Corey > On May 28, 2020, at 4:14 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Hanson via >> cctalk >> Sent: 28 May 2020 04:54 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum >> >> On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr >> wrote: >>> >>> I would think that if people you liked got replaced with people who >>> don't care then you might have a major battle trying to get back stuff >>> you loaned. >> >> It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be >> fundamentally winnable when there?s explicitly no transfer of ownership. >> >> That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don?t take loans; they may >> want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces >> returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so >> on. >> >> -- Chris > > Its a challenge. Most Museums refuse to accept loans. It?s a lot of admin. If the original owner dies what happens. > Under what terms can it be removed. Value if stolen or damaged? If it is working and it breaks. > A lot of hassle and risk. > > Dave > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu May 28 07:56:52 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:56:52 -0400 Subject: Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/27/20 9:13 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > Hello, everyone, > > As I'm sure all of you are aware, the COVID-19 pandemic has led to a crisis with devastating effects on many cultural organizations, and more especially on those which rely on public gatherings and special events to achieve their mission. Since before we opened to the public in 2012, our philosophy has been a simple one: To understand computing technology of